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Full text of "Interstate migration. Hearings before the Select Committee to Investigate the Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens, House of Representatives, Seventy-sixth Congress, third session, pursuant to H. Res. 63 and H. Res. 491, resolution to inquire into the interstate migration of destitute citizens, to study, survey and investigate the social and economic needs and the movement of indigent persons across state lines"

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INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


HEARINGS 

BEFORE  THE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  TO  INVESTIGATE  THE 

INTEBSTATE  MIGRATION  OF  DESTITUTE  CITIZENS 

HOUSE  OF  EEPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH  CONGRESS 

THIRD  SESSION 
PDRSUANT  TO 

H.  Res.  63,  491,  and  629 

RESOLUTIONS     TO  INQUIRE     INTO     THE     INTERSTATE 

MIGRATION    OF    DESTITUTE    CITIZENS,    TO    STUDY, 

SURVEY,    AND    INVESTIGATE    THE    SOCIAL    AND 

ECONOMIC  NEEDS   AND  THE  MOVEMENT  OF 

INDIGENT  PERSONS  ACROSS  STATE  LINES 


PART  9 
WASHINGTON  HEARINGS 

DECEMBER  5,  6,  9,  and  10,  1940 


Priuted  for  the  use  of  the  Select  Committee  to  Investigate  the 
Interstate  Migration  of  Destitute  Citizens 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


HEARINGS 

BEFORE  THE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  TO  INVESTIGATE  THE 

INTEESTATE  MIGRATION  OF  DESTITUTE  CITIZENS 

HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH  CONGRESS 

THIRD  SESSION 
PURSUANT  TO 

H.  Res.  63,  491,  and  629 

RESOLUTIONS      TO   INQUIRE      INTO     THE      INTERSTATE 

MIGRATION    OF    DESTITUTE    CITIZENS,    TO    STUDY, 

SURVEY,    AND    INVESTIGATE    THE    SOCIAL    AND 

ECONOMIC   NEEDS    AND   THE   MOVEMENT   OF 

INDIGENT  PERSONS  ACROSS  STATE  LINES 


PART  9 
WASHINGTON  HEARINGS 

DECEMBER  5,  6,  9,  and  10,  1940 


Printed  for  the  use  of  the  Select  Committee  to  Investigate  the 
Interstate  Migration  of  Destitute  Citizens 


UNITED   STATES 

GOVERNMENT  PRINTING  OFFICE 

WASHINGTON  :   1941 


^^SUP£fffNTENDENTOFOOCUME^f^. 

^iiN   10  1341 


SELECT  COMMITTEE  TO  INVESTIGATE  THE  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 
OF  DESTITUTE  CITIZENS 

JOHN  H.  TOLAN,  California,  Chairman 

CLAUDE  V.  PARSONS,  Illinois  CARL  T.  CURTIS,  Nebraska 

JOHN  J.  SPARKMAN,  Alabama  FRANK  C.  OSMERS,  Jr.,  New  Jersey 


Dr.  ROBEKO?  K.  Lamb,  Chief  Investigator 
Virginia  Elliott,  Acting  Secretary 


RICHARD  S.  Blaisdell,  Editor 
Harold  D.  Cullen,  Associate  Editor 


LIST  OF  WITNESSES 

Washington  Hearings,  December  5,  6,  9,  and  10,  1940 

Page 

Alves,  Henry  S.,  of  the  Office  of  Education,  Social  Security  Board.  Ad- 
dress: Washington,  D.  C 3561,  3592,  3596 

Carpenter,  Martin  F.,  Chief  of  Employment  Service  Division,  Bureau  of 
Employment  Security,  Social  Security  Board.  Address:  Washington, 
D.  C 3561,  3574 

Carruthers,  Rev.  John,  representing  National  Presbyterian  Church,  Con- 
necticut Avenue  and  N  Street,  Washington,  D.  C.  Address:  1015 
Prospect  Boulevard,  Pasadena,  Calif 3623 

Clague,  Ewan,  Director,  Bureau  of  Employment  Security,  Social  Security 

Board.    Address:  Washington,  D.  C 3561,  3567,  3576 

Coffee,  Dr.  E.  R.,  United  States  Public  Health  Service,   Social  Security 

Board.    Address :  Washington,  D.  C 3561,  3579 

Eliot,    Charles   William,    Director,    National   Resources    Planning    Board. 

Address:  Washington,  D.  C 3724,  3726 

Ferris,  John  P.,  Director,  Commerce  Department,  Tennessee  Valley  Au- 
thority.   Address :  Knoxville,  Tenn 3797,  3825 

French,  William  Howard,  former  farmer  and  coal  miner  in  West  Virginia, 
Kentucky,  Pennsylvania,  and  Ohio.  Address :  1524  Twenty-sixth  Street 
NW.,  Washington,  D.  C 3556 

Gallagher,  Hubert  R.,  Assistant  Director,  Council  of  State  Governments. 

Address:  Chicago,  111 3480,  3483 

Goodrich,  Dr.  Carter,  professor  of  economics,  Columbia  University.  Ad- 
dress :  New  York,  N.  Y 3756,  3759 

Hoehler,  Fred  K.,  Director  of  American  Public  Welfare  Association.    Ad-  ' 
dress:  Chicago,  111 3465,  3469 

Hoey,  Jane  (Miss),  Director,  Bureau  of  Public  Assistance,  Social  Security 

Board.    Address:  Washington,  D.  C 3504,  3520,  3529 

Jackson,  Glenn  E.,  director  of  public  assistance.  New  York  State  Depart- 
ment of  Social  Welfare.     Address:    Albany,  N.  Y 3544 

Kahn,  Dorothy  C,  assistant  executive  secretary,  American  Association  of 
Social  Workers.  Address:  130  East  Twenty-second  Street,  New  York, 
N.  Y _ 3643,  3649 

Lasser,  David,  president  of  American  Security  Union.    Address :  Washing- 

tou,  D.  C 3839,  3842 

Lubin,  Dr.  Isador,  Commissioner,  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics,  Department 

of  Labor.    Address  :  Washington,  D.  C 3698 

McCrea,  John,  former  hotel  and  restaurant  worker  from  Lancaster,  N.  Y. 

Address:  Care  of  Transient  Bureau,  Washington,  D.  C 3608 

Magnusson,  Leifur,  chairman  of  legislative  commdttee,  Monday  Evening 

Club.    Address:  Washington,  D.  C 3S49,  3850 

Marsh,  Benjamin  C,  executive  secretary  of  the  People's  Lobby.    Address:  ' 
Washington,  D.  C 3651,3652,3661 

Ranch,  Fred  R.,  Acting  Commissioner,  Federal  Works  Agency,  Work  Proj- 
ects Administration.     Address:  Washington,  D.  C 3626,3628 

Roosevelt,  Mrs.  Franklin  D.     Address:  Washington,  D.  C 3742 

Ryan,  Rt.  Rev.  John  A.,  D.  D.,  representing  the  National  Catholic  Welfare 

Conference.     Address:  Washington,  D.  C 3490,3492 

Shackelton,  Chester  G.,  migrant  from  Kansas,  now  working  in  airplane 

plant  at  Baltimore.    Address :  12  East  Lafayette  Street,  Baltimore,  Md_     3665 

Shishkin,  Boris,  director  of  research,  American  Federation  of  Labor.  Ad- 
dress: Washington,  D.   C 3673 

Smith,  Dr.  Carl  T.,  lecturer  in  economics,  Columbia  Universitv,  New  York 
N.  Y.     Address :  1900  H  Street,  Washington,  D.  C _* 3767,  3783 

III 


IV  LIST  OF  WITNESSES 

Page 

Sweareugin,  Rolaud  LeGrand,  former  plasterer,  born  in  Virginia.    Address: 

728  Fifth  Street  NW.,  Washington,  D.  C S549 

Tate,  Jack  B.,  general  counsel,  Department  of  Education,  Federal  Security 

Agency.     Address:  Washington,  D.  G 3504,3520,3529 

Thomas,  Mrs.  Albert  A.,  mother  of  migrant  family  of  five  children  and  wife 
of  electrician  from  St.  Louis,  Mo.  Address :  Alexandria  Tourist  Camp, 
Alexandria,   Va 3733 

Williams,  Roberta  C,  staff  association,  National  Travelers'  Aid  Associa- 
tion.   Address:  New  York,  N.  Y 3613,3618 

Windhorst,  Le  Roy  P.,  former  farmer  from  Kansas,  now  working  at  air- 
plane plant  in  Baltimore,  Md.     Address :  Welles,  Kans 3669 


STATEMENTS  AND  MATERIAL  SUBMITTED  BY  WITNESSES 


Subject 


Statement  for  the  American  Public  Welfare 
Association. 

Statement  for  the  Council  of  State  Govern- 
ments. 

Statement  for  the  National  Catholic  Welfare 
Conference. 

Present  Situation  with  Regard  to  Migrants 
and  Recommendations  for  their  Care. 

Legal  Requirements  for  Residence,  General 
Relief. 

Trends  in  Residence  Requirements  for  Public - 
Assistance  Categories. 

Provisions  for  the  Care  of  Transients  by- 
General  Relief  Agencies. 

Settlement,  Residence,  and  the  Power  of  a 
State  to  Exclude  or  Remove  Nonsettled 
Needy  Persons. 

Letter  from  Anne  E.  Geddes 

The  Program  of  the  Bureau  of  Employment 
Security  as  it  Relates  to  Migration. 

Health  Needs  of  Interstate  Migration  of 
Destitute  Citizens,  by  Dr.  Thomas  Parran, 
Surgeon  General,  United  States  Public 
Health  Service. 

Summary  and  Conclusions,  United  States 
Public  Health  Service,  by  Dr.  Parran. 

Problems  of  Education  Caused  by  Migra- 
tions of  Families  with  Children  of  School 
Age,  by  J.  W.  Studebaker,  Commissioner 
of  Education,  United  States  Office  of 
Education. 

Problems  in  Connection  with  Defense  Mi- 
gration as  Seen  by  the  National  Travelers 
Aid  Association. 

Summary  of  Replies  Received  to  Question- 
naire on  Defense  Activities. 

Migration  of  Destitute  Citizens  to  Defense 
Centers. 

Relationship  of  Work  Projects  Administra- 
tion to  Migrant  Families  Seeking  Work. 

Statement  for  the  American  Association  of 
Social  Workers. 

Statement  of  Executive  Secretary,  People's 
Lobby. 

Proposal  for  Public  Control  and  Ownership  of 
Natural  Resources. 

Excerpts  from  Prepared  Statement 

Statement  from  the  National  Resources  Plan- 
ning Board. 

Study  of  Population  Redistribution 

Changes  in  American  Agriculture  and  Some  of 
the  Results. 


Witness 


Fred  K.  Hoehler 

Hubert  R.  Gallagher 

John  A.  Ryan 

Jane  M.  Hoey 

Jane  M.  Hoey 

Jane  M.  Hoey 

Jane  M.  Hoey 

Jack  B.  Tate 

Jane  M.  Hoey 

Ewan  Clague 

E.  R.  Coffee 

Henry  S.  Alves 


Roberta  C.  Williams 

Roberta  C.  Williams 

Fred  R.  Ranch 

Fred  R.  Ranch 

Dorothy  C.  Kahn 

Benjamin  C.  Marsh- 
Benjamin  C.  Marsh- 
Boris  Shishkin 

Charles  W.  Eliot 

Carter  Goodrich 

CarlT.  Schmidt 


Page 


3465 
3481 
3490 
3504 
3506 
3509 
3511 
3513 


3528 
3562 


3579 


3584 
3592 


3613 

3616 

3626 

3641 

3644 

3651 

3656 

3697 
3724 

3757 
3767 


VI 


STATEMENTS  AND  MATERIAL  SUBMITTED 


Subject 

Witness 

Page 

Relationship  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  Author- 
ity Program  to  the  Interstate  Migration 
Problem. 

Effects  of  Regional  Integration  of  Activities-. 

Employee  Training  in  the  Tennessee  Valley 
Authority. 

Statement  by  President  of  the  American  Se- 
curity Union. 

Statement  of  Legislative  Committee,  Mon- 
day Evening  Club. 

John  P.  Ferris 

3798 
3824 

John  P.  Ferris 

3836 

David  Lasser   . 

3840 

Leifer  Magnusson 

3849 

INTEESTATE  MIGRATION 


THURSDAY,   DECEMBER   5,    1940 

House  of  Representatives, 
Select  Committee  to  Investigate  the 
Interstate  Migration  of  Destitute  Citizens, 

Washington,  D.  C. 
The  committee  met  at  10  a.  m.,  Hon.  John  H.  Tolan  (chairman) 
presiding. 

Present:  Representatives  John  H.  Tolan  (chairman),  Claude  V. 
Parsons,  Carl  T.  Curtis,  and  Frank  C.  Osmers,  Jr. 

Also  present:  Dr.  Robert  K.  Lamb,  chief  investigator;  Henry  H. 
Collins,  Jr.,  coordinator  of  hearings;  Creekmore  Path  and  John  W. 
Abbott,  field  investigators;  Ariel  E.  V.  Dunn  and  Alice  M.  Tuohy, 
assistant  field  investigators ;  Irene  M.  Hageman,  hearings  secretary ; 
Richard  S.  Blaisdell,  editor;  Harold  D.  Cullen,  associate  editor. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  please  come  to  order,  and  I 
will  ask  Mr.  Hoehler  to  take  the  stand.  Mr.  Hoehler,  Congressman 
Curtis  will  have  the  honor  of  interrogating  you,  sir. 

TESTIMONY  OF  FEED  K.  HOEHLER,  DIRECTOR,  AMERICAN  PUBLIC 
WELFARE  ASSOCIATION,  CHICAGO,  ILL. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Mr.  Hoehler,  we  are  very  glad  you  could  get  away 
from  the  convention,  or  meeting,  of  which  you  are  in  charge,  and 
favor  our  committee  with  a  statement. 

You  have  a  prepared  statement,  which  will  be  inserted  in  our 
record  at  this  point  and  made  a  part  of  our  hearings  and  carefully 
analyzed  by  a  number  of  people  connected  with  this  committee. 

(The  statement  follows:) 

STATEMENT   OF   FRED   K.   HOEHLER,    DIRECTOR,   AMERICAN    PUBLIC 
WELFARE  ASSOCIATION 

As  one  formerly  engaged  in  the  administration  of  a  public  welfare  department 
and  a  department  of  public  safety,  I  have  for  some  years  had  an  interest  in  the 
migrant  problem.  That  interest  came  first  because  these  migrants  are  people 
and,  second,  because  public  agencies  had  some  responsibility  toward  helping  these 
people  meet  their  problems. 

The  migrant  population  of  this  country  like  some  of  our  minority  groups  has 
been  subject  to  much  abuse  and  misunderstanding.  Migrants  have  been  accused 
of  aimless  and  wasteful  wandering,  which  honestly  and  in  the  final  analysis 
can  only  be  boiled  down  to  the  problem  of  seeking  a  livelihood  in  the  American 
way.  Men  and  families  who  reside  in  communities  where  the  opportunities  for 
earning  a  livelihood  have  failed  or  disappeared,  using  their  individual  initiative, 
start  out  to  travel  in  search  of  new  opportunities. 

3465 


3466 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


MIGRATION    AN    AMERICAN    TRADITION 


Migration  is  no  new  phenomenon.  This  Nation  has  subsidized  it  since  the 
early  1800's  when  settlement  in  the  western  States  meant  the  expansion  of  the 
American  democracy  and  the  development  of  our  wealth  and  resources.  The 
early  migration  to  this  country  from  Europe,  which  was  encouraged  by  those  who 
hoped  to  see  the  wealth  and  resources  developed,  the  grants  of  land  to  home- 
steaders, and  similar  grants  to  railroads  for  the  development  of  the  West,  were 
all  early  manifestations  of  the  problem  of  migration. 

In  later  years,  farmers  and  industrialists  have  encouraged  migration,  first, 
because  labor  was  needed  for  new  Industries  and  for  harvesting  crops,  and 
second,  because  it  was  thought  desirable  to  increase  the  size  of  the  labor  market 
when  competitive  bidding  for  man's  labor  came  to  be  an  important  factor  in 
industry  and  agriculture. 

HEAVY  POPULATION  MOVEMENTS 

For  over  10  years,  one  of  my  responsibilities  in  a  midwestern  city  was  the 
operation  of  an  agency  for  the  care  of  so-called  transients.  In  the  1920's,  I  saw 
a  small  group  of  men  and  women  moving  from  the  southern  States  into  the 
northern  industrial  cities  seeking  employment.  Some  of  these  came  as  indi- 
viduals or  with  small  families  in  twos  and  threes.  Others  moved  into  our  city 
or  through  it  in  trains  provided  by  commissary  companiesi  or  employment  agents 
for  industrial  firms.  In  those  days,  this  seemed  natural  and  necessary  because 
industry  was  expanding  and  mechanical  improvements  in  agriculture  were 
beginning  gradually  to  reduce  the  need  for  manpower  on  the  farm. 

Later,  in  the  early  1930's,  this  group  increased,  and  still  later,  hordes  of  people 
of  all  races  and  creeds  from  nearly  every  city  and  State  passed  through  that  city 
of  Cincinnati,  Ohio.  During  that  period  I  talked  with  thousands  of  men  and 
women  who  were  migrating  from  one  place  to  another.  Some  of  them  were 
moving  out  in  the  search  for  jobs ;  others  were  returning  home  discouraged  and 
despondent. 

During  the  past  5  years  I  have  had  the  opportunity  to  visit  and  talk  with 
migrantsi  in  their  camps  in  California  and  have  talked  with  others  along  the  now 
famous  Highway  66,  as  well  as  on  other  roads  of  Texas  and  Arizona.  In  most 
of  those  interviews  and  in  the  great  majority  of  people  whom  I  saw  face  to  face, 
I  foiind  a  spirit  of  courage  which  we  have  always  admired  in  America.  Each 
had  the  determination  to  improve  his  condition  even  at  great  personal  sacrifice. 
There  also  was  the  frequently  expressed  desire  to  be  an  integral  part  of  the 
American  economy,  which  was  producing  great  machines  and  automobiles, 
building  skyscrapers,  and  bringing  labor-saving  devices  into  the  homes,  the  fields, 
and  the  shops.  If  there  were  any  difference  between  this  group  and  those  of  us 
who  remained  at  home,  it  was  merely  that  they  had  a  greater  spirit  of  adven- 
ture and  perhaps  more  physical  courage  than  the  rest  of  us. 

ABSENCE   OF   UNIFORM    SETTTLEMENT    LAWS    A    FACTOR 

Two  factors  played  an  important  role  in  this  migration.  The  first  of  these 
was  the  emphasis  on  legal  settlement,  and  the  second  was  its  social  and  eco- 
nomic aspect.  The  administration  of  public  relief  to  dependent  people  is 
restricted  in  most  States  by  legislative  provisions  which  base  eligibility  for 
assistance  on  the  number  of  years  the  individual  has  spent  in  the  community. 
These  provisions,  known  as  settlement  laws,  had  their  genesis  in  the  English 
poor  laws  of  the  seventeenth  century.  These  laws  were  directed  at  the  control 
of  that  dependency,  which  resulted  from  the  break-down  of  the  feudal  system 
and  the  subsequent  growth  of  urban  communities. 

In  this  country  during  the  past  2  decades  there  has  been  added  emphasis 
on  settlement  laws  as  a  means  of  control  of  that  type  of  dependency  which 
has  grown  out  of  population  mobility. 

In  the  United  States  legal  settlement  varies  from  the  State  laws  which 
provide  no  statutory  basis  for  settlement  either  within  the  State  or  its  juris- 
dictions, to  those  States  which  provide  as  many  as  5  years  settlement  within 
a  State  before  assistance  is  allowed.  In  some  cases  residence  of  from  6  months 
to  a  year  within  a  county  of  a  particular  State  is  required  before  that  county 
will  assume  responsibility  for  care  and  assistance. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3467 

It  can  be  seen,  therefore,  that  the  problem  of  public  aid  to  the  interstate 
migrant  is  seriously  aggravated  by  variation  in  the  settlement  laws  of  the 
several  States.  There  are  many  instances  where  a  person  may  lose  settlement 
in  one  State  before  it  is  possible  for  him  to  gain  settlement  in  another.  This 
leaves  him  in  the  exact  position  of  a  man  without  a  country  should  he  or 
his  family  suddenly  become  ill  or  require  some  form  of  public  aid.  The  un- 
fortunate part  about  this  is  that  those  who  are  involved  are  usually  unaware 
of  their  change  in  status.  When  a  man  starts  out  in  search  of  work,  there  is 
no  barrier  at  the  State  lines,  or  no  warning  that  he  is  in  imminent  danger  of 
losing  his  settlement  in  one  State  when  he  passes  into  another.  This  aspect 
of  the  problem  is  legal  and  will  require  the  enactment  or  repeal  of  legislation 
in  a  great  many  States  before  there  can  be  uniformity  in  the  treatment  of 
people  who  move  from  one  State  to  another.  In  this  regard  our  States  have 
become  so  "balkanized"  that  we  are  constantly  at  conflict  in  law  as  to  who 
should  provide  for  hungry  people. 

SOCIAL    ADJUSTMENTS    FOUND    DITFICULT 

The  social  and  economic  aspects  of  the  problem  are  those  which  are  pre- 
sented by  the  need  for  the  mobility  of  labor  throughout  the  entire  Nation  and 
the  need'  for  special  migrant  groups  in  certain  parts  of  our  country.  People 
move  because  they  are  encouraged  to  do  so  by  advertisements  from  another 
State  in  which  work  is  promised,  or  there  are  those  who  in  sheer  desperation 
move  out  to  find  a  job.  These  may  be  the  products  of  social  maladjustment 
or  economic  developments  which  are  too  vast  and  complicated  for  the  average 
individual  to  understand.  It  becomes  an  almost  impossible  task  to  explain 
to  the  migrant  from  Oklahoma,  "Tou  are  not  wanted  in  California  this  year," 
when  only  a  few  years  ago  his  friends  and  relatives  were  encouraged  to 
make  the  trek.  In  spite  of  warnings,  he  sets  out  to  help  meet  a  demand  for 
labor  which  he  is  convinced  exists. 

Another  social  phenomenon  is  the  movement  of  people  who  are  sick  and  in 
need  of  a  different  climate  to  relieve  suffering.  It  is  the  most  natural  thing 
in  the  world  for  a  person  from  the  Ohio  Valley  to  move  into  the  Southwest 
to  relieve  a  sinus  condition  which  has  made  it  impossible  for  him  to  work. 

There  are  some  who  claim  that  people  move  from  one  State  where  there 
are  no  relief  grants,  or  where  there  are  meager  or  starvation  grants,  to 
another  State  where  the  relief  grants  may  be  more  generous.  These,  in  my 
experience,  I  have  found  constitute  an  extremely  small  group.  This  group 
is  small  because  most  people  who  have  had  to  exist  on  the  ragged  edge  of 
poverty  for  years  are  well  aware  of  the  fact  that  there  is  absolutely  no 
security  in  what  we  know  as  the  public  relief  grant.  A  community  which 
provides  $20  or  $30  per  month  this  year  for  relief  families  always  faces  the 
uncertainty  of  legislative  appropriations  and  the  riddle  of  what  will  be  the 
number  of  those  who  are  asking  relief  during  the  next  year,  as  well  as  the 
ever-present  uncertainty  of  work  programs  provided  by  the  Federal  Govern- 
ment. These  facts  are  all  well  known  to  people  who  have  themselves  been  on 
relief,  and  it  is  too  hazardous  to  leave  a  home  and  the  place  where  they 
have  friends  to  go  to  a  strange  community  in  the  hope  that  they  may  get 
more  adequate  relief. 

NATIONAL  DEFENSE  PEOGRAM  AGGRAVATES  PROBLEM 

One  of  the  most  significant  migrations  of  recent  months  is  the  movement  of 
thousands  of  individuals  and  families  to  the  scores  of  new  national-defense 
centers  which  are  being  established  all  over  the  United  States.  While  this  migra- 
tion has  not  yet  reached  alarming  proportions  a  sufficient  number  have  already 
moved,  and  there  are  enough  indications  of  future  population  shifts  to  warrant 
considerable  concern. 

Members  of  the  field  staff  of  the  American  Public  Welfare  Association,  in 
their  visits  to  a  number  of  these  newly  created  centers  and  to  older  centers 
where  there  is  increased  activity,  report  a  growing  transient  population  and 
adjustments  in  these  communities  affecting  the  welfare  and  security  of  the 
entire  community.  In  almost  every  one  of  the  defense  centers,  small  towns  and 
even  larger   cities   are   finding  their   vacant  lots   crowded   with   old   and  new 


24(38  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

trailers ;  small  jails  and  even  fire  houses  are  crowded  with  men  seeking  work  at 
the  new  plants,  and  boarding  houses  and  small  hotels  are  filled  to  capacity. 

In  one  of  the  small  middle  western  towns  to  which  over  8,000  new  workers 
commute  every  day,  all  local  facilities  established  for  a  town  of  less  than  a 
thousand  are  crowded  beyond  capacity.  This  influx  of  men  has  created  housing, 
health,  and  recreation  problems  in  nearby  larger  urban  centers.  Local  officials 
in  cities  surrounding  the  defense-center  town  report  increased  traffic  and  other 
police  problems.  When  the  construction  projects  at  this  new  center  are  com- 
pleted about  2,500  men  will  be  replaced  by  an  equal  number  of  women  who  will 
be  employed  at  the  plant,  creating  new  and  different  welfare  problems. 

These  typical  problems  exist  on  a  larger  or  a  smaller  scale  in  each  of  the 
defense  centers  where  facilities  do  not  exist,  or  are  limited  to  take  care  of 
the  transients  seeking  work,  or  those  who  fail  to  hold  their  jobs  because  of  the 
very  rigid  physical  examination.  Complex  problems  will  arise  where  they  never 
before  existed.  The  incomplete  framework  of  general  relief  services,  inadequately 
supported  in  many  cases  from  local  funds,  makes  it  impossible  to  cope  with  the 
emergency  relief  needs  which  have  already  been  manifest  and  which  will  probably 
multiply  in  the  near  future. 

Present  national-defense  plans  indicate  that  the  defense  projects  at  the  various 
centers  will  continue  for  a  number  of  years.  This  development,  like  all  others 
in  the  past  where  there  have  been  appreciable  shifts  in  the  location  of  industry 
and  economic  activitly  related  to  the  concentration  of  large  numbers  of  men, 
results  in  a  temporary  crisis  in  family  life  for  large  numbers  and  continuing 
problems  for  a  somewhat  smaller  group.  The  problem  of  possible  dependence  is 
only  one  of  the  many  welfare  problems  which  attend  large-scale  migi-ations. 

SUGGESTIONS   FOR   LEGISLATION 

A  few  elements  in  the  present  situation  which  must  be  considered  in  devolop- 
ing  legislation  or  administrative  processes  for  helping  to  prevent  unnecessary 
migrancy  are : 

1.  The  dispossessed  people  who  are  moved  off  land  which  is  purchased  for 
military  or  defense  industry  purposes. 

2.  The  possible  loss  of  some  foreign  markets  and  shift  of  others  which  will 
mean  a  new  dislocation  of  workers,  both  urban  and  rural. 

3.  The  possibility  of  evacuation  of  areas  for  the  protection  of  families  who  may 
be  subjected  to  the  violence  of  attack  from  without  or  to  the  hazards  of  vul- 
nerable industries  subject  to  attack  from  within. 

These  elements  produce  situations  of  importance  not  only  to  the  local  com- 
munity and  to  the  State  government,  but  of  vital  concern  to  the  Nation's  wel- 
fare. No  solution  to  the  problem  of  migration  can  be  found  in  the  individual 
States  alone,  or  even  in  a  regional  plan.  Migration  is  interstate  in  character, 
and  it  is  beyond  the  capacity  of  the  States  themselves  to  deal  with  it  ade- 
quately. The  problem,  viewed  in  all  of  its  asjiects,  is  national  in  nature,  and  any 
solution  to  it  will  require  the  leadership  and  participation  of  the  Federal 
Government. 

Such  a  program  of  Federal  leader.ship  with  State  cooperation  would  include: 

1.  The  abolition  of  State  settlement  laws,  or  at  least  the  enactment  of  uniform 
settlement  laws  in  all  States.  The  abolition  of  settlement  laws  is  based  on  the 
theory  that  for  most  States  the  relief  burden  would  not  be  increased  because 
the  number  of  dependents  coming  into  a  State  would  offset  those  going  out. 
It  is  obvious  that  the  advantages  of  climate  or  living  conditions  in  some  States 
would  attract  more  people  than  would  be  attracted  to  other  States.  This  may, 
therefore,  work  a  hardship  upon  a  few  areas  unless  it  is  accompanied  by  the 
next  step. 

2.  An  adequate  general  relief  program  with  Federal  participation  through 
grants-in-aid  to  the  States  and  Federal  supervision  of  standards  and  methods  of 
administration.  In  any  general  relief  program  with  Federal  and  State  participa- 
tion, there  should  be  present  at  least  two  factors  favorable  to  a  solution  of  the 
migrant  problem.     These  are  : 

(a)  More  adequate  relief  standards  in  each  State  which  would  enable 
people  out  of  work  to  stay  home  and  seek  work  in  the  community  where  they 
have  residence. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3469 

(&)  Special  provision  for  care  of  the  nonsettled  person  or  of  the  migrant 
group  needed  for  seasonal  work.  This  provision  would  come  only  through 
a  larger  Federal  share  in  the  cost  of  care  for  such  unsettled  people. 

3.  A  stronger  and  more  effective  employment  service  which  would  have  the 
full  confidence  of  the  employer  and  employee  group.  Such  a  service  could 
assist  in  the  orderly  flow  of  migrant  labor  and  facilitate  the  placement  of 
workers  needed  in  interstate  employment.  This,  of  course,  must  be  a  service 
operated  on  a  national  basis,  under  Federal  control. 

In  the  local  communities  with  State  and  Federal  cooperation,  there  must  be 
more  than  mere  lodging  and  subsistence  for  the  transient  group.  Transient 
centers  in  cities  and  counties  should  be  equipped  to  provide  medical  examina- 
tions and  subsequent  medical  care  for  migrants  who  are  found  to  be  ill  or 
suffering  from  serious  physical  disabilities.  Such  transient  centers  should  be 
constantly  in  touch  with  employment  agencies  for  the  necessary  clearance  on 
placement  of  i^ersonnel. 

Finally  there  must  be  recognition  of  the  need  for  united  action  among  all 
three  levels  of  government — Federal,  State,  and  local — in  the  care  of  distressed 
people  If  our  Nation  is  to  defend  its  Institutions  effectively  against  aggression. 

TESTIMONY  OF  FRED  K.  HOEHLER— Resumed 

Mr.  Curtis.  There  are  a  few  things  I  want  to  inquire  about.  In 
the  first  place,  I  believe  I  will  ask  you  to  summarize,  just  briefly,  the 
point  or  points  that  you  make  in  your  prepared  statement.  Just 
proceed  in  your  own  words. 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Briefly,  what  I  have  done  in  my  statement  is  to 
attempt  to  show  that  the  migration  problem  is  one  which  was  not 
born  of  this  depression,  or  the  depression  which  began  in  1929,  but 
is  a  phenomenon  which  has  been  going  on  in  this  country  for  years, 
because  of  the  necessity  of  moving  people  for  our  industrial  develop- 
ment. And  then  its  aggravation  came  in  1929,  when  great  numbers 
of  people  had  to  be  moved. 

I  have  also  tried  to  make  the  point  that  at  the  present  time,  when 
people  are  moving  from  one  community  to  another  in  the  defense 
program,  we  find  not  only  isolated  instances  but  a  number  of  occa- 
sions when  the  so-called  migratory  problems  have  been  increased 
because  people  are  flocking  to  defense  areas. 

MIGRANT  PROBLEM   REQUIRES  FEDERAL   LEADERSHIP 

I  have  suggested,  in  the  final  analysis,  this  is  a  problem  which 
cannot  be  handled  hj  local  communities  or  by  the  States ;  it  must  be 
by  Federal  leadership  and  Federal  encouragement.  And  by  "lead- 
ership" I  mean  the  Federal  Government  must  enact  legislation, 
must  set  an  example  through  that  legislation  for  the  kind  of  stan- 
dards to  be  set  in  maintaining  people  who  are  moving  about  the 
country  as  migi-ants.  They  must  put  funds  into  the  care  of  people 
throughout  the  country.  And  1  am  speaking  in  this  memoranda 
of  a  general  relief  problem,  rather  than  a  specific  transient  relief 
problem ;  because,  after  all,  migrants  are  people,  too,  and  should  not 
be  too  isolated  or  set  aside  from  the  population. 

I  am  suggesting  that  the  settlement  laws  might  be  revised;  that 
there  might  be  some  uniformity  of  settlement  laws,  and  I  have  dis- 
cussed very  briefly  the  matter  of  the  abolition,  of  settlement  laws. 


3470  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Curtis.  At  that  point,  do  you  recommend  as  the  move  to  be 
made  at  this  time  something  toward  uniformity,  or  the  abolition  of 
settlement  laws? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  My  personal  recommendation  would  be  toward  uni- 
formity, to  be  brought  about  by  some  participation  in  the  cost  of 
maintaining  people  throughout  the  country  by  the  Federal  Govern- 
ment. Uniformity  should  be  one  of  the  bases,  one  of  the  qualifica- 
tions on  which  the  Federal  Government  would  provide  that  help. 

NEED  FOR  IMPROVED  EMPLOYMENT  SERVICE 

Then  I  have  suggested  that  the  employment  service  needs  strength- 
ening. It  needs  to  be  more  effective  and  efficient,  and  it  can  only 
be  that,  I  intimate,  without  much  of  an  argument,  if  it  is  a  Federal 
employment  system.  There  is  too  much  lack  of  uniformity,  too  much 
indifference  on  the  part  of  some  employment  officials — State  employ- 
ment officials — to  this  problem  which  is  national,  because  they  have 
their  own  State  problems.  A  good  national  employment  service  oper- 
ated from  Washington  in  the  States  and  localities  could  effectively 
control  some  of  the  flow  of  migrant  labor. 

That,  gentlemen,  is  a  brief  of  the  statement  which  I  have  presented. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Mr.  Hoehler,  how  long  have  you  been  engaged  in 
work  of  this  sort? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Well,  I  became  the  welfare  director  in  the  city  of 
Cincinnati  back  in  1926,  Shortly  after  that,  I  became  safety  director 
and  also  handled  welfare  problems.  And  in  the  welfare  department, 
in  the  early  1920's,  we  found  some  movement  of  population.  It  in- 
creased through  the  late  1920's  and  1930's. 

POLICE  PROBLEMS  AND  FIRE  HAZARDS 

As  safety  director,  I  had  the  police  problem  of  handling  migrants 
who  fell  into  the  clutches  of  policemen,  and  tried  to  be  just  as  humane 
as  possible,  and  to  treat  them  with  a  little  social  service  in  connection 
with  our  activities.  And  we  also  had  a  fire  problem;  because,  inci- 
dentally, while  we  do  not  hear  much  about  it,  a  community  which 
grows  up  adjacent  to  large  cities,  either  a  trailer  camp  or  small  camp 
that  is  built  by  migrants  who  come  in  looking  for  jobs,  becomes 
distinctly  a  fire  problem,  a  fire  hazard,  to  the  community.  And  in 
that  work,  for  over  12  years,  in  the  city  of  Cincinnati,  I  became 
pretty  well  acquainted  with  some  of  the  problems  of  the  migrants 
flowing  from  the  South  through  the  city  of  Cincinnati,  which  hap- 
pened to  be  a  bottleneck,  to  the  industrial  regions  of  the  North.  And, 
since  that  time  I  have  been  engaged  as  national  director  of  the  na- 
tional organization  of  welfare  directors — the  American  Public  Wel- 
fare Association. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  what  is  that  association? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  The  American  Public  Welfare  Association  is  an  as- 
sociation of  public  officials  engaged  in  welfare  work.  It  was  or- 
ganized in  1930,  when  public  welfare  work  around  the  country  began 
to  increase  its  activities,  and  at  that  time  the  present  commissioner 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3471 

of  agencies  and  institutions  in  the  State  of  New  Jersey  was  president 
of  the  association.  It  has  grown  since  then  to  rather  a  large  organiza- 
tion which  engages  only  in  attempting  to  increase  the  efficiency  of 
welfare  directors,  the  administration  of  public  welfare  around  the 
country,  and  has  a  membership  of  about  four  or  five  thousand. 

We  have  two  organizations  within  the  American  Public  Welfare 
Association — one,  tiie  Association  of  State  Public  Welfare  Officials; 
and  the  other  the  Association  of  Local  Public  Welfare  Officials.  To- 
day, at  this  very  hour,  44  different  State  public-welfare  officials  are 
meeting  in  a  hotel  in  this  city,  and  200  local  public-welfare  officials, 
discussing  problems  relating  to  this  one  in  which  your  committee  is 
so  vitally  interested. 

URGES  UNIFORM  SETTLEMENT  LAW^S 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  you  discuss  in  your  paper  and  you  have  men- 
tioned here  the  problem  of  settlement  laws  and  say  that  you  personally 
favor  a  move  toward  uniformity.  What  do  you  have  to  suggest  as 
a  means  of  bringing  about  that  uniformity  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Well,  as  I  travel  around  the  country,  and  just  to 
qualify  myself — I  have  been  in  32  States  since  the  first  of  this  year 
to  spend  3  days  or  more  at  a  time,  and  I  would  say  that  the  thing  most 
needed  to  establish  uniform  settlement  laws  is  a  general  relief  program 
in  which  the  Federal  Government  and  the  States  participate  with 
local  conununities  to  provide  assistance  to  people  who  are  unemployed 
and  cannot  find  any  assistance  in  the  established  categories  under  the 
Social  Security  Act.  Tliere  are  many  States  where  no  provision  is 
made  for  people  who  are  hungry  and  homeless,  except  some  surplus 
commodities  provided  by  the  Federal  Government.  And  that  sounds 
just  like  a  couple  of  words  when  you  talk  about  people  being  hungry  and 
homeless,  but  if  you  get  into  some  of  our  southern  States,  particularly, 
you  will  find,  with  a  few  exceptions — and  the  State  of  Alabama  is  a 
notable  exception — there  is  no  provision  for  people  who  are  not  pro- 
vided for  either  by  the  Work  Projects  Administration  or  under  the 
so-called  social-security  categories.  As  a  result,  those  people  are 
hungry ;  they  are  undernourished  and  are  creating  a  definite  national 
problem. 

GENERAL  RELIEF  SUGGESTED  AS  MIGRANT  AID 

Now,  if  general  relief  could  be  provided  with  Federal  participation. 
States  like  California,  New  York,  and  Illinois,  where  they  have  inad- 
equate, but  at  least  some,  relief  for  people  who  are  living  in  those 
States,  would  not  be  so  inclined  to  raise  their  residence  laws  to  3,  4, 
or  5  years,  which  is  the  situation  now  in  their  attempt  to  keep  so-called 
migrants  out  of  the  State. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Is  a  Federal  transient  program  feasible  without  some 
general  program  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  I  would  say  it  is  not.  In  the  first  place,  a  Federal 
transient  program,  operated  as  a  Federal  program  in  the  local  com- 
munities, sets  these  people  wdio  are  transients  apart  from  the  rest  of 
the  population;  when,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  the  desirable  thing  is  to 


3472 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


integrate  them  into  the  population,  to  tie  them  to  the  soil,  to  give  them 
an  opportunity  to  live  somewhere,  instead  of  isolating  and  setting 
them  aside  as  we  would  some  particular  category  whom  we  fear  in 
the  community.  And  I  would  much  prefer,  and  I  think  inost  of  the 
people  who  know  this  problem  would,  to  have  a  general  relief  program 
in  which  the  Federal  Government,  the  States,  and  the  local  communi- 
ties all  participate,  operated  either  by  the  State  or  local  community, 
in  which  provision  is  made  for  all  people,  regardless  of  whether  they 
are  residents  or  nonsettled  people.  And  perhaps  under  that  program 
the  Federal  Government  could  offer  certain  inducements  to  States  to 
reduce  the  settlement  laws,  but  at  least  to  bring  about  uniformity  of 
settlement  laws  by  providing  some  additional  share  in  the  cost  of 
maintaining  nonsettled  people. 

Mr.  Curtis.  We  have  heard  many  witnesses  discuss  this  problem 
which  you  have  discussed.  What  I  am  about  to  ask  does  not  pertain 
to  your  paper  that  you  have  prepared  and  I  may  be  wrong  in  my 
memory  as  to  what  the  law  is.  In  my  own  State  of  Nebraska,  it  is 
my  recollection  it  is  the  law  that  if  there  is  someone  hungry,  who 
needs  either  relief  or  medical  care,  or  whatever  the  case  may  be, 
certain  local  officials  are  not  only  bound  to  take  care  of  them,  but 
they  are  guilty  of  a  criminal  act  if  they  refuse  to  do  so,  regardless  of 
settlement  laws.  And  then  the  recovery  from  the  place  where  that 
person  belongs  is  followed  up  afterward,  if  it  can  be  done;  but  the 
first  duty  is  to  take  care  of  those  people.  Now,  that  is  more  or  less 
a  theoretical  question  in  my  State,  because  in  my  State  the  migration 
of  people  has  been  outward ;  our  people  have  moved  out  of  the  terri- 
tory and  have  become  migrants  elsewhere.  But  do  you  know  whether 
a  similar  provision  of  law  prevails  in  any  other  State? 

CHARGE-BACK   SYSTEM   OF   RELIEF 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Oh,  yes ;  there  are  a  number  of  States  in  which  they 
have  a  charge-back  system.  I  operated  under  it.  But  it  just  does 
not  work.  You  cannot  drag  a  county  into  jail;  you  cannot  drag  a 
State  into  jail.  You  can  bring  them  into  court  and  get  a  judgment, 
but  it  is  another  thing  to  try  to  collect  on  that  judgment. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  am  not  discussing  so  much  the  charge-back  and  the 
recovery  under  it,  but  I  am  wondering  does  the  operation  of  a  law 
that  requires  these  officials  to  take  care  of  those  people,  regardless  of 
the  settlement  laws — does  that  part  of  it  work,  in  your  experience? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  There  are  plenty  of  laws  to  that  effect,  but  you 
cannot  have  jails  enough  in  the  country  to  take  care  of  the  people 
who  violated  that  law.  They  violate  it,  just  do  not  take  care  of  them, 
because  the  public  officials  do  not  have  the  money. 

Mr.  Curtis.  They  do  not  appropriate  the  money  for  that  particular 
purpose  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  They  do  not  appropriate  the  money  for  that  particu- 
lar purpose  and,  in  many  cases,  they  are  completely  indifferent  to 
whether  people  are  suffering,  or  not.  I  say  that  not  generally,  but 
I  would  refer,  in  the  matter  of  indifference,  to  about  25  or  30  percent 
of  the  local  welfare  officials  around  the  country.     There  are  a  niim- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3473 

ber  of  them  elected;  the  township  trustees  are  elected,  and  they  are 
not  interested  particularly  in  doing  anything  more  than  getting  a 
sufficient  number  of  votes  to  put  them  into  office  at  the  next  election. 
And  the  funds  which  they  have  to  use  are  extremely  meager.  There 
is  no  record  kept  of  any  money  which  they  use  in  my  own  State 
of  Ohio  where  I,  for  years,  worked  in  connection  with  township 
trustees.  And,  as  a  result,  they  are  entirely  careless  about  it  and 
many  of  them  are  indifferent  to  suffering.  So  that  those  laws  are 
not  enforced. 

Where  they  have  a  well-organized  State  department  operating  a 
general  relief  program,  as  they  have  in  New  York  State  and  one  or 
two  other  places,  tliey  do  a  pretty  good  job  of  taking  care  of  people; 
because  they  have  State  supervision  of  what  the  local  authorities  are 
doing.  And  I  think  they  would  do  even  a  better  job  if  they  had 
Federal  supervision  of  what  the  State  authorities  are  doing. 

RELIEF    NOT   A    CAUSE    OF    MIGRATION 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  think  there  is  anything  to  the  statement  that 
is  sometimes  made  that  a  wide  difference  in  the  amount  of  relief  pro- 
vided causes  people  to  migrate?  Do  people  leave  one  point  and  go 
to  another  because  of  the  possibility  of  more  attractive  relief? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  No;  I  do  not  believe  there  is  anything  in  that.  I 
have  argued  it  up  and  down  the  country.  People  who  are  on  relief 
recognize  the  complete  insecurity  of  the  relief  gi-ant;  they  know  that 
next  year  the  appropriation  of  the  city  council  or  the  county  super- 
visors might  not  be  made  and  they  would  be  off  of  the  relief  rolls. 
And  that  is  true  in  California  and  in  New  York,  just  as  it  is  in 
Oklahoma  or  Arkansas.  So  ])eople  are  not  induced  to  move  to  Cali- 
fornia because  the  relief  gi'ants  in  California  have  reached  $30  or 
$35  a  month. 

I  went  up  and  down  the  transient  camps  in  California  and  talked  to 
people  in  the  camps,  and  the  outstanding  characteristic  of  those 
people  was  the  desire  for  land.  I  do  not  think  I  talked  to  half  a 
dozen  men,  in  the  hundreds  I  saw-,  who  were  not  hungry  for  some 
land  which  they  could  work,  hungry  for  an  opportunity  to  earn  their 
own  living.  They  did  not  want  relief ;  they  did  not  come  to  Califor- 
nia for  relief.  That  is  true  of  those  on  Highway  66  and  is  true  of 
those  I  have  seen  in  trucks  leaving  the  Ozarks  for  the  fields  in  Ohio 
and  Michigan.  They  are  out  to  get  jobs  and  not  to  get  the  relief 
that  Ohio  and  Michigan  might  give  them. 

AGRICULTURAL  MIGRANTS  IN   ALASKA 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  the  migration  to  Alaska,  say,  in  the  last  10  years, 
and  to  California  and  the  Pacific  Northwest,  has  been  largely  of 
people  forced  off  of  the  land,  has  it  not? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  They  are  people  with  that  sort  of  a  background? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  that  is  what  they  want  to  adjust  themselves  to? 


3474  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  And  a  few  small  businessmen  from  the  Dakotas 
moved  into  the  Northwest,  moved  to  Washington  and  Oregon  and 
went  out  there  to  try  their  luck  at  raising  crops  on  the  land ;  but,  for 
the  most  part,  they  were  people  \n1io  were  forced  off  of  the  land  and 
they  were  simply  following  the  old  trek  that  their  neighbors  followed 
years  before. 

California  has  advertised  pretty  extensively  for  migrant  workers 
in  the  last  decade,  that  is,  the  decade  before  this  one,  and  still  ad- 
vertises. I  have  picked  up  advertisements  from  California  and 
Arizona  along  the  highways,  and  found  them  in  railroad  stations — 
those  of  farmers  and  farm  organizations,  advertising  for  men  and 
women  to  come  to  California  to  work  in  the  crops  in  the  field. 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  do  not  think  any  appreciable  number  went  there 
because  of  the  climate,  do  you  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  No;  I  say  honestly  they  do  not;  because  they  go 
up  to  the  Northwest,  too,  where  the  climate  is  not  too  encouraging, 
although  it  is  better  than  it  is  in  northern  Michigan. 

Mr.  Curtis.  There  is  another  thing  I  would  like  to  ask  you,  because 
you  are 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Might  I  finish  my  answer  to  that  question? 

Mr.  Curtis  Yes;  pardon  me. 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  I  would  say  when  that  man  gets  to  be  50  or  60,  or 
a  little  over,  he  might  seek  a  little  better  climate;  but  these  fellows 
I  have  seen  on  the  road  and  in  transient  camps  were  30  and  40.  They 
looked  to  be  50  and  60,  but  they  were  out  to  get  jobs,  not  sunshine. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  they  have  plenty  of  sunshine  always  in  Cali- 
fornia ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  They  say  they  do. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  they  withhold  it  from  the  unjust,  or  does  it  shine 
on  the  just  and  the  unjust  alike? 

Mr.  Hoehler.  Well,  you  would  think  so  if  you  got  into  some  of 
those  dismal  camps;  there  is  hardly  any  sunshine  in  them  that  gets 
through  these  bleak  buildings  where  they  live. 

ALL  STATES  SEND  MIGRANTS  TO  CALIFORNIA 

The  Chairman.  It  is  a  peculiar  thing,  but  a  Congressman  asked 
me  one  day,  "Where  do  you  get  all  those  people  in  California — 
homeseekers  and  different  people?"  I  said,  "From  every  State  in 
the  Union,  but  the  most  of  them  from  your  State,  Congressman." 

So  in  California  there  are  people  from  every  State  in  the  Union. 

Mr.  Hoehler.  If  we  are  not  just  making  conversation,  I  would 
like  to  say  it  is  true.  I  went  out  there  with  the  idea  they  came  from 
Oklahoma  and  Arkansas,  but  in  one  camp  I  found  people  from  23 
States,  and  more  than  a  handful  from  the  State  in  which  I  have 
worked  in  public  administration  for  nearly  15  or  20  years.  They 
would  come,  some  of  them,  to  seek  jobs,  some  of  them  to  start  smad 
businesses,  and  some  of  them  hoping,  after  they  got  out  there,  there 
would  be  another  gold  rush. 

Mr.  Curtis.  It  has  been  my  observation,  Mr.  Hoehler,  that  each 
one  of  the  48  States  is  thoroughly  convinced  that  their  financial 
condition  is  the  worst  of  them  all.     Is  the  American  Public  Welfare 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3475 

Association  in  a  position  to  furnish  the  committee  with  information 
as  to  the  relative  ability  of  the  various  States  to  deal  with  this 
problem  of  relief  for  their  own  citizens,  as  well  as  transients  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  I  am  afraid  we  cannot.  I  wish  we  could.  We  can 
give  you  the  relative  capacities,  but  I  would  not  want  to  be  put  on 
the  witness  stand  as  an  expert  to  testify  that  our  information  is  cor- 
rect; because  some  tax  expert,  somebody  who  knew  more  about  land 
valuations  than  I  do,  could  put  me  in  a  pretty  hot  spot.  It  is,  how- 
ever, Congressman,  something  that  is  needed  in  this  country.  If  we 
are  ever  going  to  help  people  on  a  national  basis,  we  have  to  have 
some  knowledge  of  the  capacity  of  the  States  to  do  that  job  them- 
selves, and  I  am  one  of  those  fellows  who  believes  we  have  to  do  it 
on  a  variable  grant  basis.  We  cannot  give  the  same  amount  of 
money,  the  same  percentage,  to  the  richer  States  as  we  give  to  the 
poorer  States;  because  it  means  there  will  be  a  considerable  amount 
of  disproportionate  relief  services  and  relief  grants  in  the  States 
where  they  need  it  most. 

RELATIVE   ABILITY    OF   STATES   TO    MATCH  RELIEF   FUNDS 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  do  you  know  of  any  group  that  is  attacking  that 
problem,  trying  to  arrive  at  a  formula  or  definite  answer  as  to  the 
relative  ability  of  the  States  to  match  Federal  funds  or  to  provide 
funds  of  their  own  for  the  general  problem  of  relief? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  No;  because  it  is  a  big  job  and  a  costly  job.  I 
would  say  that  maybe  the  Council  of  State  Governments,  as  a  part 
of  their  program,  might  be  dealing  in  accumulating  such  informa- 
tion, but  it  may  change  in  a  short  time.  For  instance,  a  southern 
State  which  today  is  considered  a  rather  poor  rural  State  may  all 
of  a  sudden  become  an  industrial  State,  because  industry  moves. 
If  our  market  shifts  from  Europe  to  South  America,  it  is  entirely 
possible  industries  from  New  York  and  New  England  will  move  into 
Alabama,  Louisiana,  and  Mississippi,  so  that  there  would  be  a  shift 
in  the  set-up. 

Any  attempt  to  evaluate  the  capacity  of  States  to  provide  for 
their  own  needy  people  would  have  to  be  a  continuous  job;  you 
would  have  to  re-evaluate  every  4  or  5,  or  maybe  every  10  years, 
as  they  do  for  the  census;  but  it  is  a  job  which  will  take  a  lot  of 
money  and  a  lot  of  research,  and  should  be  done  by  the  United 
States  Treasury  Department  in  cooperation  with  each  of  the  States. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  we  might  be  greatly  surprised  when  it  was 
accurately  determined  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  I  think  you  would.  I  think  we  all  would,  and  I 
think  those  who  think  they  know  something  about  it  would  be  more 
surprised  than  those  who  think  they  know  the  answers. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Would  you  suggest  the  registration  of  all  transients  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  No,  I  would  not. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  has  this  defense  program  aggravated  or  lessened 
the  problem  of  moving  people  in  interstate  migration  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  It  has  aggravated  it. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Has  your  association  had  any  experience  in  any  par- 
ticular phase  of  this  defense  program? 

260370— 41— pt.  9 2 


3476  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

WELFARE  ASSOCIATION  INVESTIGATES  DEFENSE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Yes.  We  saw  this  new  defense  program  and  the 
building  of  defense  industries  as  a  possible  problem  in  the  welfare 
field ;  so  we  sent  some  of  our  staff  to  visit  a  few  of  these  communities. 
One  little  community  which  has  a  population  at  the  present  time 
of  less  than  900,  had  an  influx  of  8,000  to  10,000.  Those  people 
were  living  on  the  roadsides,  or  in  the  fire  stations  or  police  stations, 
or  lock-ups — they  were  not  police  stations;  you  could  not  dignify 
them  by  that  term — sleeping  in  all  sorts  of  places,  many  of  them 
in  automobiles  along  the  roadside.  They  came  there  to  get  jobs, 
because  a  particular  company  had  advertised  they  had  positions, 
and  they  are  waiting  there  hoping  those  positions  will  materialize. 
And  that  is  true  in  every  community  where  there  has  been  a 
large  defense  development  and  where  there  has  been  an  Army 
concentration. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Could  you  furnish  this  committee  with  a  copy  of 
that  report? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  We  can  give  you  several  reports — our  staff  reports. 
They  are  field  reports. 

Mr.  Curtis.  We  would  be  glad  to  have  as  many  as  you  can 
furnish. 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  We  will  see  that  you  get  copies  of  all  that  infor- 
mation.^ 

effect  of  nauon-wide  migrant  program 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  one  more  question:  What  would  be  the  effect 
of  a  Nation-wide  program  for  migrants?  Would  it  tend  to  cause 
more  migration,  that  is,  would  destitute  persons  tend  to  flock  to 
States  of  their  choice,  or  remain  home;  or  would  it  be  an  induce- 
ment for  them  to  return  to  their  home?  What  is  your  opinion  of 
that,  generally  ? 

Mr.  Hoehler.  If  we  had  a  Federal  relief  program,  so  that  there 
would  be  some  degree  of  uniformity  in  the  relief  given  in  every 
State  and  some  provision  to  keep  men  from  starving  between  jobs, 
I  think  it  would  tend  to  stabilize  our  population  and  give  the  em- 
ployment services  an  opportunity  to  locate  people  when  a  flow  of 
industrial  workers  seems  necessary.  As  I  say  in  this  paper,  more 
adequate  relief  standards  in  each  State  would  enable  people  out 
of  work  to  stay  at  home,  because  there  would  be  some  provision 
for  their  care,  and  they  could  seek  work  in  their  home  community, 
in  the  community  where  they  know  people  and  where  they  have  a 
better  opportunity  to  get  a  job,  than  in  some  conununity  where 
they  had  no  acquaintance  at  all.  And  in  such  a  program  there 
ought  to  be  some  provision  for  nonsettled  people,  so  that  the  Federal 
Government  would  reimburse  to  a  greater  extent  such  provision 
for  nonsettled  people. 

UPROOTED  CITIZENS  PREFER  TO   STAY  HOME 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now  that  portion  of  destitute  people  who  have  been 
anchored  at  some  place  and  have  been  dislocated — maybe  the  land 

1  This  material  is  lield  in  committee's  files. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3477 

resources  have  failed  them;  maybe  a  factory  goes  down,  or  sometliing 
of  that  kind — ahnost  universally  their  supreme  desire  is  to  get  back 
home,  is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Always. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  they  have  spent  the  most  of  their  lives? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Unless  they  find  some  sunshine  or  beautiful  climate, 
Avhere  they  would  rather  live. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  mean  if  they  are  still  objects  of  relief. 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  They  want  to  get  back  into  their  old  homes  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Let  me  give  you  some  examples.  We  made  a  study, 
spent  6  wrecks  with  our  staff  in  Grundy  County,  Tenn.  Grundy 
County  is  a  typical  Appalachian  county,  a  mining  and  lumbering 
community.  The  lumber  has  been  cut  off  and  the  mines  have  been 
sealed.  There  are  11,000  people  in  that  county,  and  75  percent  of 
them  on  relief.  Most  of  them  did  not  have  enough  money  to  buy  an 
old  automobile  and  get  out  and  look  for  jobs,  and  those  that  did  drift 
back  as  soon  as  the  mines  open  up,  as  soon  as  there  is  an  opportunity. 
Now  the  mines  are  opening  up  and  they  are  working  part  time  in  one 
section  of  the  county,  and  they  have  brought  back  some  of  the  miners. 
They  are  anxious  to  come  back  to  their  home  conununity,  to  the  place 
where  they  have  their  roots  and  to  the  place  where  they  own  a  little 
parcel  of  land,  and  they  could  operate  that  land  if  they  had  an  oppor- 
tunity to  supplement  their  farm  earnings  by  a  job.  And  the  most  of 
them  need  it,  because  most  of  the  land  is  barren  and  almost  useless, 
and  they  need  some  kind  of  cash  income  to  keep  them  alive. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Well,  there  is  a  group,  and  I  do  not  know  how  large, 
who  prefer  to  wander  around.  In  years  of  prosperity  they  found 
jobs,  but  they  worked  in  one  place  for  a  while  and  then  worked  some 
place  else,  and  so  on.  It  may  be  that  we  need  that  group,  but  my 
question  at  this  time  is,  what  percent  of  the  so-called  transients  really 
prefer  to  become  located  and  work  out  their  future  in  some  place 
where  they  can  do  so? 

migration  not  prompted  by  wanderlust 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  That  is  a  difficult  question  to  answer  unless  I  had 
our  records  before  me.  Take,  for  example,  the  trip  I  took  over  the 
famous  Highway  66:  Most  of  the  people  that  I  talked  to  were  people 
who  would  have  stayed  where  they  were  that  night,  and  would  have 
located  if  there  were  any  jobs  for  them. 

As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  people  in  some  of  the  roadside  camps  are 
out  looking  for  jobs.  They  want  work.  They  don't  have  the  wander- 
lust. There  is  no  encouragement  to  wander  if  you  have  to  put  all  of 
your  belongings  on  top  of  a  Ford  car,  and  camp  at  night  along  the 
road.  They  would  rather  stay  at  some  place  if  they  could  get  work. 
I  do  not  know  the  percentage,  but  certainly,  of  those  in  the  camps  I 
saw  in  California,  less  than  25  percent  were  people  of  the  regular 
migrant  group  needed  in  California.  The  rest  of  them  were  people 
who  came  in  from  the  23  States  I  saw  represented  in  one  camp. 
Wherever  they  could  find  some  place  in  California  where  they  could 


3^Y8  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

tie  down  to  the  land,  the  majority  of  them  wanted  to  do  that.  Thej^ 
wanted  to  be  on  the  land,  with  2  acres  or  10  acres,  or  enough  to  keep 
the  family  on,  where  they  could  make  enouoh  to  live  on. 

Mr.  CuETis.  From  the  experience  you  have  had,  and  your  vast 
knowledge  of  this  situation,  you  have  given  this  committee  a  valu- 
able statement  which  we  appreciate,  because  we  are  interested  in  the 
relief  of  these  people  as  well  as  in  some  suggestions  looking  to  a 
long-time  program  covering  these  things  that  would  stabilize  the 
population. 

I  have  no  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

SUGGESTS  NEW  SOCIAL  SECURITY  CATEGOKY 

The  Chairman.  I  want  to  ask  one  question:  Mr.  Ryan,  of  the 
American  Red  Cross,  made  a  very  interesting  statement  to  the  com- 
mittee the  other  day.  He  suggested  that  there  be  an  additional 
category  in  the  Social  Security  Act  to  cover  this  migrant  problem. 
In  other  words,  millions  of  them  now  are  going  from  State  to 
State,  and  they  have  no  status  whatever.  They  are  homeless  and 
they  are  Stateless,  and  they  are  kicked  around  in  a  way  which,  of 
course,  endangers  the  morale  of  our  people.  In  view  of  that,  what 
would  you  suggest? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  I  think  I  would  go  Mr.  Ryan  one  better:  I  would 
say  that  there  should  be  another  category  under  the  Social  Security 
Board  to  provide  for  general  relief  for  all  people.  In  administering 
that  category,  the  Federal  Government  might  say  to  a  State  like 
California,  or  to  any  State  that  may  have  a  large  transient  problem, 
"We  will  provide  additional  support  for  all  nonsettled  people";  or 
the  Federal  Government  might  provide  100  percent  of  the  cost  of 
the  support  of  nonsettled  people,  with  another  percentage  of  the 
cost  for  the  support  of  regular  residents  of  the  States. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Your  recommendations  are  for  an  adequate  gen- 
eral relief  program  with  Federal  participation  through  grants-in-aid 
to  the  States  and  Federal  supervision  of  standards  and  methods  of 
administration.  Then  you  say  there  should  be  present  at  least  two 
factors  favorable  to  a  solution  of  the  migrant  problem;  first,  more 
adequate  relief  standards  in  each  State  which  would  enable  people 
out  of  work  to  stay  home  and  seek  work  in  the  community  where 
they  have  residence,  and,  second,  special  provision  for  care  of  the 
nonsettled  person  or  of  the  migrant  group  needed  for  seasonal  work. 
You  say  this  provision  would  come  only  through  a  larger  share  in 
the  cost  of  care  for  such  unsettled  people.  Now,  this  is  what  I  want 
to  ask  you:  How  would  you  provide  for  grants-in-aid  to  the  States? 
Would  you  have  them  made  on  the  same  basis  as  now,  or  under  the 
same  social  security  provisions  now  made  for  the  making  of  grants- 
in-aid  to  the  States? 

state  aid  on  basis  of  need  proposed 

Mr.  Hoehler.  I  would  make  them  on  the  basis  of  need,  so  that  the 
States  where  the  greater  need  is  indicated  would  have  the  greater 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3479 

share  of  support  from  the  Federal  Government.  If  we  did  that,  I 
think  the  Federal  Government  could  then  encourage  some  of  the 
poorer  States  to  raise  their  standards  of  relief.  Some  of  the  States 
that  participate  in  Federal  funds  for  the  aged  and  for  dependent 
children,  and  so  forth,  make  pretty  miserable  grants.  They  make 
miserable  grants  to  the  people  who  are  participants  in  that  program. 
The  reason  for  such  low  grants  is  because  the  States  claim,  and  I 
think  that  is  true  in  many  cases,  that  they  do  not  have  sufficient  re- 
sources to  provide  their  share.  If  there  was  a  law  providing  for 
larger  grants  to  the  more  needy  States,  or  a  larger  share  borne  by  the 
Federal  Government,  they  would  be  enabled  to  have  higher  standards 
of  assistance.  That  would  be  helpful  to  the  morale  and  would  be 
a  powerful  influence  in  any  program  for  the  national  defense. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Of  course,  you  know  that  the  present  Congress  in- 
creased the  amount  of  aid  to  $20  per  month,  but  that  was  a  futile 
gesture,  because  I  think  only  one  State  was  even  allowing  as  much 
as  $15,  and  that  was  the  State  of  California. 

Mr.  HoEHLEK.  That  is  not  the  answer.  The  answer  is  for  the 
Federal  Government  to  raise  its  share. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Oftentimes  local  relief  is  classified  or  made  up  in 
several  categories,  and  they  would  select  the  category  which  has  the 
larger  share  of  Federal  money  rather  than  one  that  is  almost  entirely 
made  up  from  local  funds.  How  would  you  prevent  that  sort  of 
difficulty? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  I  would  prevent  it  by  providing  Federal  assistance 
in  all  categories.  In  the  long  run,  such  a  program  would  be  less 
costly.  The  present  difficulty  is  that  the  Federal  Government  takes 
care  of  the  aged  and  takes  care  of  children  in  homes  where  the  mother 
has  been  widowed.  One  reason  why  people  are  unable  to  support 
themselves  when  they  attain  the  age  of  65  is  that  because  for  years  they 
have  been  living  in  poverty.  They  have  no  encouragement  socially, 
and  the  reason  so  many  fathers  die  of  tuberculosis  is  because  of  some- 
thing else  that  was  brought  about  by  undernourishment  and  poverty. 
In  the  long  run,  a  program  for  taking  care  of  everybody  who  needs 
assistance  from  the  State  on  some  basis  would  cost  the  Government 
less  money.  We  are  now  taking  care  of  certain  privileged  groups 
under  Work  Projects  Administration,  and  we  are  leaving  millions 
of  people  out  of  consideration.  Then,  as  those  millions  of  people 
accumulate,  the  cost  to  the  Federal  Government,  the  State  govern- 
ment, and  the  local  governments,  will  greatly  increase  in  years  to 
come. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Has  your  association  made  any  studies  with  refer- 
ence to  a  comparison  of  the  benefits  of  work  relief  with  those  of 
direct  relief  ? 

Mr,  HoEiiLER,  We  have,  but  I  would  not  say  that  it  is  a  profound 
one.  It  is  the  kind  of  study  that  we  make  when  we  go  from  place  to 
place  and  get  information  from  people.  It  is  based  upon  information 
from  people  who  have  natural  human  prejudices  about  work  relief 
and  direct  relief,  but  I  think  these  studies  compare  favorably  with 
other  studies  that  have  been  made  on  the  subject. 


2^gQ  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mi\  OsMERS.  In  your  opinion,  does  it  form  a  solution  of  the 
problem  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  I  would  rather  give  a  man  a  job  than  relief,  but  you 
cannot  give  jobs  to  all  men  under  Work  Projects  Administration. 
There  are  not  enough  projects  to  provide  work  for  everybody.  In 
the  second  place,  many  people  who  ask  for  relief  are  unemployable, 
and  they  are  unfavorable  because  they  have  been  living  so  long  on 
the  ragged  edge  of  poverty  that  they  have  lost  the  normal  or  proper 
attitude  toward  work,  and  have  lost  the  work  capacity  to  stand  up 
under  any  decent  job. 

UNFAVORABLE  RELIEF  CONDITIONS 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Have  you  made  any  comparison  between  the  cost  of 
work  relief  and  the  cost  of  direct  relief  ? 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  In  dollars  and  cents,  work  relief  is  more  costly,  be- 
cause you  have  to  provide  a  wage  which  is  comparable:  to  the  job 
done,  and  you  have  got  to  provide  materials.  However,  in  the  final 
analysis,  I  think  work  relief  is  cheaper  because  you  have  some  invest- 
ment from  the  work  done,  and  you  have  more  skill  retained  or  work 
habits  retained  in  the  individuals  who  have  done  the  job. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  One  of  the  unfavorable  conditions  we  have  found 
within  the  borders  of  my  own  State  has  been  the  disparity  between 
the  amount  of  money  received  by  a  man  for  Work  Projects  Ad- 
ministration work,  with  15  days'  work  per  month,  and  the  direct 
State  and  municipal  relief  which  we  pay,  and  which  we  make  as 
large  as  we  can,  but  that  frequently  runs  down  to  the  matter  of 
groceries.  The  disparity  has  caused  some  difficulty,  discontent,  and 
dissatisfaction  among  the  various  groups. 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  Yes,  sir;  I  know  what  that  is.  In  17  or  18  States, 
this  disparity  is  from  about  $30  or  $40  down  to  zero  under  the 
general  relief  program. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  The  average  in  New  Jersey,  I  think,  is  $25  that  a 
family  would  receive  for  direct  relief,  and  it  would  be  about  $55  for 
work  relief. 

Mr.  HoEHLER.  You  will  find  that  differential  among  the  States. 

The  Chairman.  If  there  is  nothing  further,  we  thank  you  very  much 
for  your  statement.  Your  prepared  statement  will  appear  in  the 
record. 

TESTIMONY  OF  HUBERT  R.  GALLAGHER,  ASSISTANT  DIRECTOR, 
COUNCIL  OF  STATE  GOVERNMENTS,  CHICAGO,  ILL. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Will  you  state  your  name,  address,  and  the  organiza- 
tion you  represent,  for  the  record? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  My  name  is  Hubert  K.  Gallagher,  assistant  di- 
rector. Council  of  State  Governments,  1313  Sixtieth  Street,  Chicago, 
111. 

Mr.  Parsons.  The  statement  you  have  submitted  will  be  inserted 
in  the  record  at  this  point. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3481 

STATEMENT  OF   HUBERT   R.   GALLAGHER,  ASSISTANT  DIRECTOR, 
COUNCIL   OF    STATE   GOVERNMENTS,   CHICAGO,    ILL. 

Uniform  Settlement  Laws 

This  statement  is  directed  especially  to  the  experience  which  various  States 
and  their  legislative  commissions  have  had  in  handling  the  problem  of  tran- 
sients and  in  seeking  to  unify  their  settlement  laws.^  Legislative  commissions 
in  cooperation  with  the  Council  of  State  Governments  called  a  conference  of 
some  21  States  east  of  the  Mississippi  River  which  convened  in  Trenton,  N.  J., 
on  March  6-7,  1936,  for  the  purpose  of  considering  problems  having  to  do 
with  transient  relief  and  uniform  settlement  laws. 

The  principal  reason  for  calling  the  conference  was  to  consider  the  plight 
of  some  275,000  transients  who,  having  been  deprived  of  Federal  relief  since 
September  1935  had  been  denied  State  public  assistance  by  reason  of  the  "strict, 
arbitrary,  and  motley  technicalities  of  legal  settlement."  The  Federal  Emer- 
gency Relief  Administration  up  until  September  1935  had  been  spending  $4,000,- 
000  a  month  for  their  support,  but  since  that  time  public  indifference, 
intercommunity  jealousies,  and  reprisals  had  left  the  transients  to  shift  for 
themselves  with  resultant  liardship  and  human  suffering.  The  1936  conference 
went  on  record,  by  unanimous  adoption  of  resolutions,  urging:  First,  that  the 
Federal  Government  accept  inunediate  responsibility  for  the  relief  and  employ- 
ment of  transients,  and  that  this  relief  and  employment  be  made  effective 
through  permanent  departments  of  State  government  and  coordinate  local  units 
of  administration  with  funds  made  available  by  the  Federal  Government  on  a 
grants-in-aid  basis. 

Second,  that  the  several  States  be  urged  to  liberalize  their  laws  so  as  to 
make  possible  their  cooperation  with  the  Federal  Government  in  the  financing 
and  administration  of  relief  to  transients  on  the  proposed  grants-in-aid  prin- 
ciple ;  and 

Third,  that  all  efforts  be  made  to  bring  about  uniformity  of  legal-settle- 
ment laws  between  the  several  States,  and  that  legislation  be  encouraged 
which  would  provide  for  reciprocal  agreements  between  groups  of  two  or 
more  States  for  the  purpose  of  bringing  about  uniformity  of  practice  by  agree- 
ment as  between  the  cooperating  States. 

LEGISLATTJEES    FAII^D    TO   UNIFY    SETTLEMENT    LuVAVS 

At  the  conclusion  of  the  meeting  a  "Continuing  Committee"  of  15  was  ap- 
pointed composed  of  representatives  of  a  majority  of  the  States  at  the  con- 
ference. As  a  member,  and  later  as  secretary  of  this  committee,  I  had  an 
opportunity  to  become  acquainted  with  the  problem  during  the  next  2  years. 
The  committee  participated  in  national  conferences  held  by  the  American 
Public  Welfare  Association  and  the  Council  of  State  Governments  in  Wa.sh- 
ington,  and  in  the  Midwest  Transient  Conference  held  in  Minnesota.  Thus 
considerable  public  attention  was  called  to  the  problem,  State  legislatures  me- 
morialized Congress,  but  when  it  came  to  lowering  residence  requirements 
the  legislators  sat  on  their  hands.  There  was  always  some  reason  why  the 
settlement  laws  shouldn't  be  uniform.  In  fact,  by  calling  so  much  attention 
to  the  problem,  members  of  the  committee  actually  became  fearful  that  State 
legislatures  would  look  around  and  decide  maybe  if  some  States  had  5-year 
settlement  laws,  why  shouldn't  they?  Even  New  Jersey  found  some  reason 
for  retaining  its  5-year  period,  and  during  this  period  Colorado,  Delaware, 
Illinois,  Indiana,  Kansas,  Minnesota,  and  Pennsylvania  tightened  their 
requirements. 

RECIPROCAL   SETTLEMENT   AGREEMENTS  ADOPTED 

In  1937  the  committee  continued  its  woi'k  and  was  responsible  for  the 
adoption  of  an  enabling  act  by  some  of  the  eastern  legislatures   (New  York, 


1  Settlement  laws  have  a  twofold  purpose :  First,  that  of  setting  up  qualifications  or 
conditions  of  eligibility  for  public  assistance;  and  second,  the  fixing  of  responsibility  for 
such  public  assistance  upon  the  locality  wherein  there  has  been  a  compliance  with  the 
qualifications. 


3482  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Rhode  Island,  Vermont)  which  authorized  "Reciprocal  Agreements"  providing 
for  the  acceptance,  transfer,  and  support  of  persons  receiving  public  aid  in 
other  States. 

During  the  same  year  the  General  Assembly  of  the  Council  of  State  Govern- 
ments at  which  250  representatives  from  46  States  and  the  District  of  Colum- 
bia were  in  attendance  unanimously  urged : 

(1)  That  uniform  settlement  laws  be  enacted  providing  for: 

(a)  A  period  of  1  year's  residence  as  a  requirement  for  gaining  settlement. 

(b)  A  provision  for  the  retaining  of  settlement  in  one  State  until  a  new 
one  is  acquired  in  another. 

(c)  Relief  and  sei'vice  to  unsettled  persons  in  accordance  with  the  local 
standards  of  relief,  wherever  they  may  be  found  in  need,  and  until  such  time 
as  the  necessary  investigations  regarding  settlement  are  completed. 

id)  Vesting  in  the  State  department  of  ijublic  welfare  the  power  to  deter- 
mine the  final  decision  as  to  the  retention  of  an  unsettled  person  in  the  State 
or  the  return  of  such  person  to  his  place  of  legal  residence. 

(e)  Authorization  of  State  departments  of  public  welfare  or  the  corresponding 
agency  to  reimburse  the  local  units  for  the  costs  of  relief  and  service  given  to  the 
person  without  legal  settlement. 

if)  Authorization  of  State  departments  of  pviblic  welfare  or  the  corre- 
sponding agency  to  provide  relief  and  service  for  transients — interstate  and 
intrastate — as  an   integral  part  of  the  general  relief  and  service  department. 

(2)  That  the  Third  General  Assembly  recommend  the  adoption  of  the  Uni- 
form Transfer  of  Dependents  Act,  and  urge  the  application  of  the  principle  of 
reciprocal  agreements  between  groups  of  two  or  more  States  having  adequate 
laws  to  encourage  uniformity  of  practice  between  the  cooperating  States. 

(3)  Tliat  the  Third  General  Assembly  urge  the  Congress  of  the  United  States 
to  develop  the  necessary  legislation  and  make  appropriations  to  take  care 
of  the  problems  of  the  transient,  the  needy  stranded  migratory  laborer,  and 
other  unsettled  persons  through  grants-in-aid  to  the  States  on  the  basis  of 
certain  basic  requirements. 

At  the  end  of  1937,  some  16  States  required  more  than  a  year's  residence 
for  settlement.     Some  progress  has  been  made  since  that  time,  but  not  much. 

INTERSTATE    COMPACTS    PROPOSED 

It  is  true  that  several  of  the  States  have  passed  the  Uniform  Transfer  of 
Dependents  Act,  providing  for  administrative  agreements  for  the  benefit  of 
transients  unable  to  i-eceive  aid  because  of  "nonsettlement,"  but  due  to  the 
diversity  of  their  settlement  requirements,  few  States  have  carried  out  any 
reciprocal  agreements  under  the  authority  of  this  type  of  enabling  act. 

Such  agreements  depend,  as  has  already  been  pointed  out,  on  uniformity  of 
State  settlement  laws.  The  States  should  look  to  the  time  when  they  would  agree 
to  act  as  agents  for  any  other  State  in  administering  assistance  where  the  two 
States  concerned  may  agree  that  it  is  to  the  advantage  of  the  person  receiving  public 
assistance  to  receive  such  assistance  in  a  State  other  than  the  one  providing  the 
funds  therefor.  It  has  also  been  proposed  that  this  problem  might  be  resolved 
through  the  adoption  by  the  States  of  a  simple  interstate  compact  which  would 
provide  that  no  person  shall  lose  a  settlement  in  the  State  of  his  origin  until  he  has 
gained  one  somewhere  else,  and  that  no  person  shall  gain  a  settlement  in  the  State 
of  his  destination  within  a  shorter  period  or  under  lesser  circumstances  than  a 
resident  from  that  State  of  destination  would  have  required  to  gain  a  settlement  in 
the  State  from  which  the  first  transient  migrated. 

FEDERAL  COOPERATION  ADVISED 

After  careful  consideration  of  the  problem  it  is  my  conviction  that  the  transient, 
the  commuting  worker,  can  best  be  handled  through  the  cooperation  of  the  Federal 
Government.  With  settlement  laws  in  such  a  chaotic  state,  few  States  are 
equipped  financially  or  administratively  to  aid  with  relief  of  transients ;  as  a 
result  transients  are  shuttled  back  and  forth  from  place  to  place.  Localities 
are  not  willing  to  assume  the  burden,  nor  do  the  States  have  the  financial  resources 
to  provide  assistance.  Transients  thus  have  no  legal  settlement.  Transfers  from 
State  to  State  are  frequently  impossible  because  the  States  have  no  authority  to 
make  the  transfer  and  the  locality  will  not  assume  the  burden ;  thus  those  who 
might  work  elsewhere  are  held  back  by  fear  of  losing  settlement. 


INTERSTATE  INIIGRATION  3483 

Reports  of  commissions  affiliated  with  the  Council  of  State  Government  have 
pointed  out  that  a  Federal  grant-in-aid  program  would  assist  the  States  financially 
and  bring  about  a  measure  of  order  out  of  this  present  diversity  of  settlement- 
law  requirements.  The  administration  and  supervision  of  local  programs  of 
transient  relief  should  be  left  to  the  States  within  a  Federal  framework.  The 
States  could  be  made  to  realize  their  responsibility  for  the  transient  and  could 
be  aided  in  carrying  out  this  assistance  on  a  more  adequate  and  uniform  basis. 
The  conditions  for  grants-in-aid  might  include  provisions  for :  A  1-year  settle- 
ment law;  a  provision  for  the  maintenance  of  settlement  in  the  localities  for 
material  and  service  relief  until  legal  settlement  is  acquired ;  a  provision  that  final 
questions  of  settlement  should  be  decided  by  the  State  department  of  welfare; 
and  provisions  for  the  transfer  and  assistance  of  indigent  persons,  and  for  adequate 
standards  of  uniformity.  The  transient  program,  of  course,  will  not  succeed 
unless  there  is  a  larger  general  Federal  program  of  relief  with  grants-in-aid  to 
the  States. 

With  such  a  program,  the  States  would  be  in  a  position  to  bring  about  adequate 
transient  relief  and  greater  uniformity  of  settlement  laws  more  effectively  and 
in  less  time  than  could  the  States  acting  individually  and  separately. 

TESTIMONY  OF  HUBERT  R.  GALLAGHER— Resumed 

Mr,  Parsons.  We  thank  you  for  your  statement.  I  think  it  is  a 
very  interesting  document.  I  want  to  ask  you  a  few  questions  in  con- 
nection with  your  statement.  I  have  been  somewhat  familiar  with 
the  Council  of  State  Governments  for  a  good  many  years,  and  I  think 
the  council  is  doing  an  excellent  piece  of  work. 

TREND  AW^AY  FROM  UNIFORM  SETTLEMENT 

In  connection  with  the  recommendations  that  the  assembly  made 
in  1937,  with  reference  to  uniform  settlement  laws,  what  would  you 
say  has  been  the  trend  in  the  various  States  during  the  last  few  years 
in  that  direction? 

Mr,  Gallagher.  I  would  say  that  the  trend,  instead  of  being  in  the 
direction  of  uniformity,  has  been  the  other  way.  At  the  time  of  the 
general  assembling  in  1937,  there  were  about  20  States  that  had  l^year 
settlement  laws,  and  since  that  time  I  think  that  the  number  of  States, 
instead  of  coming  down  to  1-year  settlement  laws,  has  gone  up.  We 
have  found  that  a  number  of  States  are  raising  their  settlement  laws 
from  1  year  to  3  years  and  5  years.  At  the  general  assemblage  held 
at  Trenton,  N,  J.,  delegations  from  26  States  were  in  attendance. 
This  conference  also  recommended  uniform  settlement  laws,  and  at 
the  time  a  continuing  committee  was  set  up  by  the  States  confer- 
ence. I  was  a  member  of  that  committee  and  was  made  secretary 
of  it.  We  did  everything  we  could  to  work  for  the  passage  of  uni- 
form settlement  laws  in  the  States.  I  thus  had  an  opportunity  to 
become  acquainted  with  the  problem  during  the  next  2  years.  The 
coirunittee  participated  in  national  conferences  held  by  the  American 
Public  Welfare  Association  and  the  Council  of  State  Governments 
in  Washington  and  in  the  Midwest  Transient  Conference  held  in 
Minnesota.  Considerable  attention  was  called  to  the  problem,  and 
State  legislatures  memorialized  Congress  on  the  subject,  but  when  it 
came  to  the  lowering  of  residence  requirements  the  legislators  sat  on 
their  hands,  and  there  was  always  some  reason  given  why  the  settle- 


Q^g4  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

ment  laws  should  not  be  uniform.  In  fact,  by  calling  so  much  atten- 
tion to  the  i^roblem,  the  members  of  the  committee  became  fearful  that, 
instead  of  promoting  uniformity,  there  would  be  greater  variation  in 
the  laws  on  the  subject  of  settlement.  In  other  words,  some  State 
might  decide  to  have  a  5-year  settlement  law  because  some  other  State 
had  it. 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  are  a  resident  of  the  State  of  Illinois? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  Yes,  sir. 

STATES  RAISE  SETTLEMENT  REQUIREMENTS 

Mr.  Parsons.  Illinois  raised  its  settlement  period  from  3  to  5  years. 
Do  you  recall  the  reason  given  for  the  legislature  taking  such 
action  ? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not.  I  presume  it  might  be  due  to 
the  fact  that  other  States  had  provided  such  a  period  of  residence. 
At  the  same  time  Florida,  Delaware,  Indiana,  Kansas,  and  Penn- 
sylvania changed  their  periods  from  1  to  3  or  5  years. 

Mr.  Parsons.  I  questioned  Mr.  Neil  R.  Jacoby,  chairman  of  the  Illi- 
nois Emergency  Relief  Administration,  with  reference  to  that  point  at 
the  time  of  our  hearings  in  Illinois,  and  I  found  out  that  neither  the 
commissioner,  the  Governor,  nor  the  mayor  of  Chicago  had  made 
any  such  recommendation. 

But  in  some  way  the  members  of  the  State  legislature  got  the  idea 
that,  because  Illinois  was  paying  quite  a  substantial  amount  for  relief, 
many  transients  were  coming  into  the  State  for  the  purpose  of  ob- 
taining relief.  They  had  the  idea  that  they  were  coming  there  from 
other  States.  Now,  do  you  think  that  the  legislatures  of  other  States 
have  raised  their  settlement  law  requirements  for  the  reason  that 
they  believe  they  have  been  enticing  these  migrants  to  come  into 
those  States? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  I  think  that  is  probably  true.  I  know  that  our 
conference  brought  out  that  fact  as  to  some.  That  was  the  reason 
in  the  case  of  Pennsylvania,  and  I  dare  say  it  was  the  same  in  the 
case  of  Delaware. 

Mr.  Parsons.  We  have  had  this  question  up  at  every  place  where 
we  have  conducted  hearings.  We  have  found  one  school  of  thought 
that  favored  the  abolition  of  settlement  laws,  while  another  school 
of  thought  was  in  favor  of  uniform  laws.  Now,  what  would  be  your 
objection  to  the  elimination  of  settlement  laws  entirely  ? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  Personally,  I  would  have  no  objection  to  that. 
I  have  not  heard  that  suggestion  made  at  the  conferences  that  have 
been  held,  and  we  are  still  working  for  uniform  laws.  We  have 
tried  memorializing  the  legislatures,  and  the  Conference  has  been  in 
favor  of  a  uniform  1-year  settlement  law,  but  it  has  met  with  no 
success  in  that.  Then  we  tried  proposing  a  uniform  reciprocal  agree- 
ment, trying  to  achieve  some  agreement  among  the  States  on  that 
basis,  but  we  did  not  get  very  far  with  that.  In  fact,  only  three 
States  have  passed  enabling  legislation  for  that^ — New  York,  Rhode 
Island,  and,  I  think,  Vermont,  were  the  States. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3485 

INTERSTATE  COMPACTS  ON  SETTLEMENT 

Then,  we  come  to  the  recent  conference  proposal  of  a  simple  inter- 
state compact  which  w^onlcl  provide  that  no  person  shall  lose  a  settle- 
ment in  the  State  of  his  origin  until  he  has  gained  one  somewhere 
else,  and  that  no  person  shall  gain  a  settlement  in  the  State  of  his 
destination  within  a  shorter  period  or  under  lesser  circumstances 
than  a  resident  from  that  State  or  destination  would  have  required 
to  gain  a  settlement  in  the  State  from  which  the  transient  first  mi- 
grated. Of  course,  this  interstate  compact,  even  if  it  had  the  approval 
of  State  legislatures,  would  have  to  be  drafted.  It  would  have  to 
go  back  to  the  legislatures  of  the  several  States  to  be  ratified,  and 
then  you  would  have  to  get  the  consent  of  Congress.  That  process 
might  take  anywhere  from  3  to  5  years. 

Mr.  Parsons.  What  would  be  your  recommendation  as  to  the 
length  of  time  required  for  settlement? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  I  think  it  should  be  1  year. 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  state  there  in  the  resolution  that  you  are  read- 
ing from  that  a  citizen  would  still  be  a  citizen  of  the  State  of  his 
origin  until  he  had  acquired  citizenship  in  another  State,  or  after  1 
year's  residence  or,  at  least,  that  he  should  retain  his  citizenship  in 
his  State  of  origin  until  he  had  lived  a  sufficient  time  to  acquire  settle- 
ment in  the  State  of  his  destination  ? 

ISIr.  Gallagher.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  you  think  that  the  States  will  ever  initiate  this 
sort  of  program  themselves? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  Well,  it  is  a  difficult  problem,  and  we  have  been 
working  at  it  for  many  years. 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  have  been  working  at  it  for  how  many  years? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  I  would  say  certainly  for  5  years.  We  feel  that 
we  have  achieved  less  success  'in  this  program  than  in  any  we  have 
undertaken. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Of  course,  Congress  cannot  fix  the  settlement  laws 
of  the  various  States  unless  we  have  a  Federal-aid  program.  Then 
we  might  set  up  certain  qualifications  that  the  States  must  observe 
in  order  to  obtain  the  grants-in-aid.     We  might  do  it  in  that  way. 

Mr.  Gallagher.  I  think  that  probably  should  be  done. 

advocates  state  TRANSIENT  RELIEF  ADMINISTRATION 

Mr.  Parsons.  In  your  statement  you  advocate  that  the  administra- 
tion of  the  provision  for  transient  relief  should  be  left  in  the  States. 
Do  you  think  that  a  federally  administered  program  would  be 
feasible? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  On  the  basis  of  my  attendance  at  the  conferences, 
especially  the  relief  conference  held  during  this  year,  I  would  say 
that  a  federally  administered  program  probably  would  not  work, 
because  you  would  have  confusion  and  duplication  of  administration 
in  the  States.  I  think  you  would  find  that  the  States  would  fight 
such  a  program.  I  found  that  at  almost  all  of  the  conferences  the 
State  authorities  felt  that  they  should  have  the  administration  and 


3486  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

supervision  of  it.  I  think  they  agreed  that  probably  Federal  stand- 
ards were  necessary,  and  I  think  that  qualification  should  be  made. 
Personally,  I  would  recommend  Federal  standards  of  administration 
and  supervision. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Leaving  to  the  local  authorities  of  the  States  the 
administration  of  it? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  Yes,  sir.  I  think  that  they  would  be  better 
qualified  in  the  local  organizations.  I  think  that  many  of  these 
people  would  go  out  and  get  jobs  provided  you  had  a  proper  transient 
system. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Are  you  familiar  with  our  system  in  Illinois  for  the 
administration  of  direct  relief? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  I  am  not  qualified  to  speak  on  that  subject,  but 
I  know  generally  how  it  has  worked. 

Mr.  Parsons.  They  have  anywhere  from  1,400  to  1,500  Govern- 
ment agencies  administering  direct  relief  within  the  State  of  Illinois. 
In  the  county  there  is  only  1  unit  head,  but  in  a  county  in  which  you 
have  county  township  organizations,  and  where  there  are  perhaps  20 
townships  in  the  county,  you  have  20  different  agencies  handling 
relief.  That  is  a  very  costly  process.  Now,  you  make  the  statement 
here  in  your  paper  that  you  think  it  is  necessary  for  the  Federal 
Government  to  step  into  this  picture  of  relief,  and  that  a  great  deal 
of  administrative  cost  could  be  eliminated  if,  with  the  present  sys- 
tem of  the  various  States  of  the  Union,  the  Federal  Government 
should  set  up  certain  standards.  That  is,  it  would  not  actually 
administer  the  relief  itself,  but  would  rather  keep  in  touch  with  it, 
or  have  a  veto  power.  It  would  have  a  veto  over  the  action  of  others, 
rather  than  supervise  the  work  itself.  Upon  what  idea  do  you 
think  that  the  Federal  Government  should  participate  in  the  direct 
relief  system  of  the  States? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  I  think  there  should  be  a  general  Federal  program 
of  relief,  and  that  it  should  be  on  the  grants-in-aid  basis.  I  think 
that  you  should  have  Federal  standards  of  administration.  I  think 
that  such  a  program  would  work  well.  Of  course,  the  transient 
would  be  taken  care  of  under  a  general  Federal  program. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Would  you  have  the  Federal  Government  grant 
additional  aid  because  of  transients  within  a  State,  basing  it  upon 
numbers  or  need  ? 

Mr,  Gallagher.  I  do  not  feel  qualified  to  make  a  statement  on 
that.  I  think  the  transient  should  be  handled  the  same  way  as  any 
other  recipients  of  relief.  Otherwise,  I  am  afraid  that  you  will 
have  competition  between  the  States,  and  you  will  get  back  to  the 
situation  that  has  caused  the  problem. 

Mr.  Parsons.  If  we  eliminated  the  settlement  laws,  with  the  Fed- 
eral Govermnent  participating  in  the  program,  in  all  the  States  where 
transients  might  happen  to  be,  do  not  you  think  that  we  might 
happen  to  have  considerable  numbers  of  people  who  would  get  ready 
to  see  America  first  in  order  to  obtain  relief  as  transients? 

Mr.  Gali^gher.  If  you  had  a  general  program  of  relief,  you  would 
have  uniform  standards  applying  throughout  the  country,  and  I  do 
not  think  that  would  be  any  incentive  to  travel  around  the  country, 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3487 

or  to  see  Americca  first.  If  there  were  a  reserve  of  funds  to  afford 
sufficient  relief,  or  to  give  work  that  would  help  to  take  care  of  it, 
there  would  be  no  need  for  him  to  become  a  transient.  He  would 
have  more  opportunity  to  work  or  opportunity  to  obtain  work  in  his 
own  locality.  I  realize  that  there  is  seasonal  work,  and  that  they 
must  keep  moving  around.  That  is  where  the  worker  is  needed  to 
work  in  harvesting  fruits,  vegetables,  and  so  forth,  and  I  think  the 
worker  should  be  permitted  to  travel  in  those  areas. 

Mr.  Parsons.  What  percentage  of  the  cost  of  direct  relief  of  tran- 
sients should  be  borne  by  the  Federal  Government  if  we  should  have 
a  Federal  program  along  that  line? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  Of  course  that  would  be  up  to  Congress. 

Mr.  Parsons.  What  should  that  be,  in  your  opinion  ? 

]\Ir.  Gallagher.  I  think  50-50  might  work. 

]\Ir.  Parsons.  The  same  as  is  provided  for  in  the  present  social- 
security  law? 

Mr.  GALLiVGHER.  Ycs,  I  think  that  probably  would  work.  You 
might  try  variable  grants,  although  there  you  might  get  into  a  great 
deal  of  difficulty  with  com]:)etition  between  States.  The  larger  States 
always  object  to  the  variable-grant  program. 

STATES  SHOULD  SHARE  IN  TRANSIENT  RELIEF 

I  think  the  States  themselves  should  share  in  this  program,  and  I 
think  some  consideration  should  be  given  by  the  Congress  to  the 
returns  from  taxation  within  the  States. 

For  instance,  during  the  past  year  State  tax  revenues  have  in- 
creased 7  percent  over  last  year,  and  they  have  increased  9  percent 
over  1937.  Congress  might  take  that  into  consideration  in  w^orking 
out  a  grants-in-aid  basis.  If  State  taxes  are  bringing  in  considerable 
money  States  would  be  better  able  to  pay  for  their  share  of  relief. 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  have  given  a  great  deal  of  thought  to  the  study 
of  governments.  What  agency  of  the  Federal  Government  should 
this  administrative  work  be  lodged  in,  if  we  favored  and  provided 
for  a  Federal-aid  program  ? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  It  was  not  the  unanimous  opinion  of  the  confer- 
ences, but  it  was  agreed  to  by  a  number  of  delegates  that  possibly 
another  category  should  be  added  to  the  social-security  program, 
that  this  general  relief  program  might  be  number  4  in  the  social- 
security  set-up.    I  think  that  would  be  satisfactory. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  you  think  we  will  ever  have  all  of  our  people 
back  in  private  employment  again,  the  old,  the  young,  and  the  midclle 
aged  ? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  I  think  we  will  get  fairly  close  to  it,  but  you  will 
always  have  a  certain  number  of  unemployables  whom  you  cannot 
find  work  for. 

But  it  is  my  personal  opinion  that  if  this  defense  program  moves 
along  there  will  be  employment  for  almost  every  one. 

5IACHINERY  DISPLACES  EMPLOYMENT 

Mr.  Parsons.  Of  course,  this  problem  has  become  quite  acute,  first, 
because  of  the  depression  beginning  in  1929,  when  agriculture  had 


3488 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


been  depressed  ever  since  1920.  But  labor  displacing  machinery  has 
also  played  a  part  in  the  unemployment  problem,  has  it  not? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  That  is  certainly  true. 

Mr.  Parsons.  I  saw  an  article  not  long  ago,  a  study  of  unemploy- 
ment and  machines,  which  stated  that  in  the  last  10  years,  since  the 
depression  started,  machinery  had  displaced,  on  an  average,  on  the 
farms  and  in  industry,  31.2  percent  of  the  former  employees. 

There  is  more  production  of  any  and  every  kind  in  America  today 
than  there  ever  has  been  at  any  time,  except  during  the  other  World 
War  days,  and  yet  we  have  millions  of  people  still  unemployed. 
With  the  trend  still  in  the  direction  of  labor-displacing  machinery, 
can  we  ever  expect  to  put  all  of  our  people  to  work  in  private  indus- 
try or  private  employment? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  Perhaps  not,  and  certainly  not  during  ordinary 
times.  That  would  only  be  possible  in  the  case  of  a  tremendous 
defense  program,  and  even  then  it  may  be  doubted  if  that  would  put 
everyone  to  work, 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  think  then  that  this  problem  is  at  least,  in  part, 
a  national  problem? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  Yes,  indeed ;  I  certainly  do. 

Mr.  Parsons.  All  of  the  destitute  migrants  did  not  have  their 
origin  in  the  Dust  Bowl? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  No. 

Mr.  Parsons.  They  have  been  found  in  every  large  town  and 
community  in  the  country  ? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  Indeed  they  have. 

COST   or  FEDERAL  PARTICIPATION 

Mr.  Parsons.  Have  you  ever  thought  about  how  much  money  it 
might  take  for  the  Federal  Government  to  participate  in  such  a 
program  ? 

Mr.  Gallagher.  I  realize  it  would  be  considerable.  I  have  heard 
the  statement  made  that  it  might  cost  at  least  $500,000,000.  I  have  no 
facts  or  figures  to  back  that  up,  but  I  have  heard  that  statement  made. 

The  Chairman.  Concerning  your  reference  to  the  50-50  matching 
proposition  in  relation  to  the  migration  problem,  this  thought  has 
occurred  to  me — and,  of  course,  we  are  expressing  no  opinion  one  way 
or  the  other,  until  we  file  our  final  report,  but  we  do  have  some  ideas 
about  this  subject, — for  instance,  during  the  last  5  years,  895,000 
people  have  gone  to  California,  my  State,  and  493,000  are  destitute 
migrants.  Suppose  the  50-50  proposition  were  in  effect.  California 
is  the  only  State  in  the  Union  which  matched  the  old-age  pension 
payment  of  $15,  and  the  State  is  in  debt.  If  the  State  had  to  also 
provide  the  money  for  matching  the  payments  to  transients  or 
migrants,  it  probably  would  be  unable  to  do  it  now. 

Take  the  State  of  "Mississippi,  for  instance.  It  seems  that  the  pay- 
ment of  $2.25  for  old-age  assistance  grants  is  the  best  that  State  can 
do.     I  think  you  see  what  I  am  trying  to  get  at. 

Mr.  Gallagher.  It  would  work  a  hardship  on  California,  probably. 

The  Chairman.  Yes,  but  all  the  States  are  pressed  now.     As  indie- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3489 

ative  of  that  fact,  none  of  them,  outside  of  California,  can  come  up 
to  the  $15  mark.  I  wanted  to  get  that  in  the  record  as  a  statement  or 
fact,  because  it  shows  what  the  situation  is. 

Mr.  Parsons.  I  want  to  correct  the  record  in  reference  to  that  matter, 
Mr.  Chairman.  Illinois  has  raised  its  pension  amount  to  $40,  but  it 
is  not  paying  a  uniform  rate  to  every  recipient,  and  I  doubt  if 
California  is. 

STATES    CLAIM    FINANCIAL   INABILITT 

Mr.  Curtis.  Will  the  Chairman  yield  to  me  for  a  moment? 

The  Chairman.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  would  like  to  ask  the  witness  this  question :  Does  it 
follow  from  the  fact  that  Mississippi  pays  only  $2.25  a  month  to  an 
aged  person  and  California  pays  $20  indicate  a  relative  ability  to  raise 
the  money?     Do  you  think  it  does? 

Mr.  Gallagher,  Personally,  I  think  Mississippi  ought  to  pay  more, 
but  I  think  probably  relative  ability  would  be  figured  on  the  per 
capita  income  of  the  people  of  the  State,  and  I  would  say  probably 
on  that  basis  California  would  be  in  a  better  position  to  pay  it  than 
Mississippi  would,  but  whether  it  is  on  the  basis  of  $15  to  $1, 1  do  not 
know,  but  I  doubt  if  it  is.  I  think  that  probably  the  Mississippi 
amount  is  way  too  low. 

Mr.  Curtis.  As  I  stated,  in  asking  the  previous  witness  a  question, 
all  of  these  States  contend  that,  financially,  each  is  worse  off  than  any 
of  the  other  47.  But  my  observation  on  this  point  has  been  that  as 
to  the  States  paying  a  small  amount,  it  necessarily  follows  that  that 
is  the  measure  of  their  ability. 

Mr.  Gallagher.  I  think  that  is  correct. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  think  probably  the  sentiment  and  the  standards  of 
the  people  have  been  the  controlling  factors  in  the  States  which  pay  a 
high  amount,  as  well  as  in  the  States  that  pay  a  low  amount. 

Mr.  Gallagher.  I  think  that  is  true.  That  is  why  you  have  this 
competition  of  people  going  on  relief  in  States  that  pay  more. 

EMPLOYMENT  FOR  ALL  IMPOSSIBLE 

The  Chairman.  In  reference  to  a  question  asked  here  by  Mr,  Par- 
sons, as  to  whether  you  think  the  time  will  come  when  people  will  all 
be  employed  in  private  industry,  of  course  I  doubt,  myself,  that  we 
will  ever  reach  that  point. 

I  might  call  your  attention,  in  that  connection,  to  some  figures  re- 
leased by  some  insurance  companies  the  other  day.  I  do  not  recall 
which  insurance  companies  they  were,  but  they  were  very  interesting 
to  me. 

They  made  a  survey — I  forget  how  many  insurance  companies  there 
were — but  they  found,  taking  policy  holders  at  the  age  of  25  years — 
this  is  the  general  average — that  when  they  reached  the  age  of  64,  out 
of  100  policyholders,  54  were  dead,  36  were  living  on  public  or  ])rivate 
charity,  or  with  their  relatives,  and  5  were  employed,  4  were  well-to-do, 
and  one  was  rich.     In  my  opinion,  those  are  very  startling  figures. 


3490 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


I  guess  that  probably  when  we  understand  those  figures  we  can  do 
bettei*  with  the  migrant  problem  than  we  are  doing  now. 
We  thank  you  very  much  for  your  statement. 

TESTIMONY  OF  RT.  EEV.  JOHN  A.  EYAN,  D.  D.,  EEPRESENTING  THE 
NATIONAL  CATHOLIC  WELFARE  CONFERENCE,  WASHINGTON, 
D.  C. 

The  Chairman.  The  next  witness  is  Msgr.  John  A.  Ryan. 

You  are  here,  Monsignor,  representing  the  National  Catholic  Wel- 
fare Conference? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  I  want  to  say  to  yon,  Monsignor,  that  this  commit- 
tee, after  the  resolution  passed  the  House  of  Representatives— and  this 
will  show  you  that  we  considered  this  was  a  national  problem— started 
in  New  York,  with  our  hearings,  where  Mayor  LaGuardia  was  our 
first  witness.     He  agreed,  as  I  recall,  that  it  is  a  national  problem. 

Then  we  went  to  Montgomery,  Ala. ;  then  to  Chicago ;  then  to  Lin- 
coln, Nebr.;  Oklahoma  City;  and  San  Francisco  and  Los  Angeles, 
Calif.  .  ^  .  ^    ^  . 

We  think  we  have  aroused  this  Nation  to  the  seriousness  ot  this 
problem.  .  -,  -,        , 

I  want  to  say  to  you  also,  Monsignor,  that  this  committee,  although 
composed  of  Republicans  and  Democrats,  has  never  considered  this  a 
political  question.  I  am  very  proud  of  this  committee  and  the  al)ility 
the  members  have  shown  in  the  consideration  of  this  subject. 

The  committee  has  received  your  prepared  statement  and  it  will 
be  placed  in  the  record  at  this  point. 

(The  statement  is  as  follows:) 

STATEMENT  BY  RT.  REV.  JOHN  A.  RYAN,  D.  D. 

I  am  here  at  the  request  of  and  in  place  of  the  Right  Reverend  Monsignor 
Michael  J.  Ready,  general  secretary  of  National  Catholic  Welfare  Conference, 
who  was  formally  invited  to  testify  hefore  thiy  committee.  The  members  of 
Congress  who  are  responsible  for  creating  the  committee  and  the  members  of 
the  'committee  itself  deserve  the  very  highest  praise  for  this  initial  endeavor 
to  grapple  with  one  of  the  most  urgent  and  difficult  social  and  economic  prob- 
lems confronting  the  American  people. 

Three  preliminary  propositions  may  be  laid  down  with  considerable  confi- 
dence: First,  migrancy  cannot  be  abolished  as  an  institution,  for  there  will 
always  be  a  large  number  of  persons,  mostly  young  and  unmarried,  desiring  to 
leave  home  and  seek  other  occupations  and  places  of  abode. 

Second,  no  attempt  should  be  made  by  law  directly  and  specifically  to  hinder 
the  migration  of  anyone  for  any  reason,  so  long  as  America  remains  America. 

Third,  destitute  migrants  should  obtain  assistance  in  adequate  measure, 
either  in  the  form  of  direct  relief  or  work  relief. 

PROPOSES     JOINT    FEDERAL-STATE    AID 

The  foregoing  provision  should  be  made  jointly  by  the  Federal  Goverument 
and  the  State  in  which  the  needy  migrants  are  temporary  sojourners,  with  the 
greater  part  coming  from  the  Federal  Government.  In  principle,  this  arrange- 
ment is  relatively  simple,  even  though  the  administrative  difficulties  may  be 
complex.  However,  tliey  are  not  insurmountable,  for  essentially  the  same  situ- 
ation confronted  the  Federal  Emergency  Relief  Administration,  the  Resettlement 


iNTEKSTATE  MIGRATION  3491 

Administration,  and  the  Farm  Security  Administration.  Whether  the  relief  to 
migrants  should  be  administered  by  the  Work  Projects  Administration  or  by  a 
new  Federal  agency  set  up  for  this  specific  purpose  is  a  question  which  we  do 
not  need  to  consider  here. 

The  observations  just  made  obviously  deal  only  with  a  temporary  situation. 
They  suggest  no  permanent  remedy,  nor  do  they  offer  anything  by  way  of  abolition 
or  prevention.  Yet,  abolition  of  the  conditions  which  are  responsible  for  destitute 
migrants  and  prevention  of  the  recurrence  of  these  conditions  should  be  the 
main  concern  of  this  committee.  On  this  point,  I  would  make  the  following 
suggestions. 

First  a  part  of  the  problem  will  be  solved  through  the  gradual  improvement 
in  business  conditions  and  employment  which  is  now  under  way.  Wherever 
this  occurs  the  number  of  those  likely  to  migrate  into  another  State  will 
be  reduced.  And  this  development  will  be  helpful  both  to  the  heads  of 
families  and  to  single  persons.  As  a  matter  of  policy,  therefore,  consistent 
and  continuous  elforts  should  be  directed  toward  the  increase  of  employment 
in  private  industry. 

PERMANENT  REMEDIES    SUGGESTED 

However,  even  this  proposal  falls  under  the  head  of  temporary  and  partial 
remedies.  Really  permanent  remedies  refer  particularly  to  the  farm  dwellers 
who  have  been  displaced  by  Dust  Bowl  phenomena  and  other  factors.  Here, 
the  requisite  measures  are  threefold :  Rehabilitation  loans,  loans  for  owner- 
ship, and  measures  which  favor  the  operators  of  small  farms.  With  I'egard 
to  rehabilitation  loans,  we  have  already  seen  a  good  beginning.  And  the 
results  are  very  encouraging.  A  recent  survey  of  360,000  active  rehabilitation 
borrowers  thus  described  their  status  in  1939  as  compared  with  their  condi- 
tion the  year  before  they  obtained  their  loans : 

"Whereas,  the  year  before  the  loans  were  made  the  net  income  of  the 
borrowing  families  was  $375.42,  their  average  net  income  in  1939,  the  year  of 
the  survey,  was  $538.40.  That  represents  an  increase  of  43  percent.  Again, 
whereas,  their  net  worth  or  capital,  over  and  above  all  debts,  was  $SS4.49 
per  family  before  their  loans  were  made,  it  stood  at  $1,114.91  the  year  of 
the  survey.  That  is  an  increase  of  26  percent  and  means  that,  taken  together, 
these  families  added  a  total  of  $83,000,000  to  the  wealth  of  their  communities." 
(The  Rural  South:  Problem  or  Prospect,  Rev.  Edgar  Schmiedeler,  O.  S.  B., 
p.  21.) 

Obviously,  this  beneficent  provision  could  and  should  be  extended  indefin- 
itely. Before  he  left  the  Farm  Security  Administration,  Dr.  Will  Alexander 
declared  that  half  a  million  applicants  for  rehabilitation  loans  had  to  be 
refused  for  want  of  funds,  and  that  these,  or  a  great  proportion  of  them, 
had  joined  the  grand  army  of  migrants. 

Concerning  provisions  for  enabling  tenants  to  become  owners,  their  inade- 
quacy is  equally  striking.  Farm  owners  are  becoming  tenants  at  the  rate  of 
40,000  per  year,  while  the  $50,000,000  annual  appropriation  is  insufficient  to 
offset  more  than  a  fraction  of  this  addition  to  the  number  of  our  tenant 
farmers.  An  appropriation  of  $1,000,000,000  a  year  for  rehabilitation  loans 
and  ownership  loans  would  not'  be  excessive  if  that  amount  could  be  efficiently 
dispensed  by  the  Farm  Security  Administration. 

L.\RGE    FAKMS    VERSUS    SMALL   FARMS 

Finally,  we  come  to  the  question  of  large  versus  small  farms.  This  is  the 
most  difficult  problem  of  all,  inasmudi  as  its  solution  involves  a  drastic 
change  in  fundamental  policies.  This  committee  has  heard  a  great  deal  of 
testimony  concerning  the  displacement  of  small  farmers  through  the  mechaniza- 
tion of  the  farm  industry.  I  cite  only  one  witness,  Gladys  Talbott  Edwards, 
education  director  of  the  Farmers  Union :  "In  the  mechanization  of  farms, 
more  than  a  million  and  a  half  workers  have  been  displaced  who  can  never 
again  find  work  on  the  land."  How  can  this  process  be  arrested?  One 
method  would  be  to  withdraw  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  benefits 
from  any  farmer  who  cultivates  or  operates  more  than  500  acres  of  land. 
Second,  and  perhaps  even  more  important  would  be  a  supertax  on  large  land 


ro— 41— pt.  9- 


3492  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

holdings,  say  those  which  exceed  1,000  acres.  Compel  landowners  who  are 
possessed  of  more  than  this  amount  to  pay  a  progressive  tax  which  will  render 
larger  holdings  unprofitable. 

Twenty-five  years  ago,  I  recommended  such  a  supertax  in  my  book  Distribu- 
tive Justice.  At  that  time  I  was  not  thinking  of  the  migrant  problem,  for 
it  had  not  yet  become  formidable,  nor  of  anything  else  except  the  general 
desirability  of  a  better  distribution  of  the  resources  of  America.  In  the  light 
of  developments  since  1915,  I  repeat  that  recommendation  with  greater  em- 
phasis. As  a  student  of  economics  for  almost  half  a  century,  I  have  come 
to  appreciate  the  meaning  and  value  of  "efficiency."  As  a  general  rule,  I 
believe  that  we  should  not  discard  or  refuse  to  adopt  any  invention,  device, 
or  method  which  increases  production  with  a  smaller  amount  of  labor.  Never- 
theless, the  supreme  end  of  all  technical  improvements  should  be  the  welfare 
of  human  beings.  If  the  farm  tractor  and  harvesting  combine  or  any  other 
technical  improvement  means  less  debilitating  labor  or  a  greater  net  amount 
of  material  benefits  to  human  beings,  it  is  desirable  to  that  extent.  On  the 
other  hand,  if  any  such  change  merely  reduces  the  cost  of  production  while 
it  increases  the  number  of  persons  who  are  unable  to  live  decently  this  so- 
called  technical  progress  is  not  genuine  progress. 

By  way  of  summary,  I  desire  to  quote  here,  with  complete  approval,  the 
chief  recommendations  made  to  your  committee,  as  stated  in  Facts  for 
Farmers,  for  December  1940: 

1.  Limit  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  benefits  to  a  family-sized 
economic  unit. 

2.  Enact  a  graduated  land  tax. 

3.  Raise  farm  prices. 

4.  Enlarge  the  program  of  the  Farm  Security  Administration. 

5.  Increase  the  tenant  purchase  program. 

6.  Lengthen  the  term  of  tenant  leases. 

7.  Include  migratory  families  in  social  legislation. 

8.  Refinance  and  scale  down  the  farm-mortgage  debt. 

9.  Establish  a  farm-placement  service. 

TESTIMONY  OF  RT.  REV.  JOHN  A.  RYAN,  D.  D.— Resumed 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Osmers  will  ask  you  some  questions,  and  the 
other  members  of  the  committee  will  follow  him,  as  they  may  desire. 

Mr.  Osmers.  Monsignor,  I  want  to  say  that  I  received  a  copy  of 
your  prepared  statement,  and  I  wonder  if  you  would,  in  your  own 
words,  give  to  the  committee  the  important  points  contained  in  that 
statement. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes ;  I  shall  try  to  do  that,  briefly. 

I  observed,  in  the  letter  which  was  sent  to  Monsignor  Ready, 
general  secretary  of  the  National  Catholic  Welfare  Conference,  in- 
viting him  or  someone  he  would  designate,  to  take  part  in  this  hear- 
ing, a  statement  to  the  effect  that  the  theme  of  the  hearing  today 
woidd  be  that  of  settlement.  I  have  not  dealt  with  it  specifically  in 
my  prepared  statement. 

Mr.  OsMEKS.  I  would  rather,  with  the  concurrence  of  the  chairman, 
that  you  not  necessarily  confine  yourself  to  the  subject  of  settlement. 

MIGRANCT  A  CONTINUING  PROBLEM 

Monsignor  Ryan.  I  would  like,  if  you  will  permit  me,  to  make  two 
observations  on  settlement. 

The  proposals  I  recommend  have  to  do  almost  entirely  with  the 
farm  migrants,  and  the  proposal  relative  to  rehabilitation  loans,  plus 
other  facilities  which  enable  tenants  to  become  owners.     These  are 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3493 

long-distance  settlement  proposals,  they  will  not  go  into  effect  next 
week  or  next  year.     But  I  think  they  are  fundamental. 

There  is  one  observation  I  would  like  to  make  regarding  the 
important  problem  of  settlement.  The  other  day,  at  Trinity  College, 
I  mentioned  to  my  class  that  I  was  coming  here  today,  and  I  said 
it  was  a  continuing  problem,  and  I  will  not  say  anything  that  has  not 
been  said  before. 

One  of  the  students  said,  "What  about  camps  for  these  migrants?" 
Maybe  I  was  a  bit  hasty,  but  I  thought  of  concentration  camps  im- 
mediately. I  said,  "No,  we  are  not  going  to  force  anybody  to  go  into 
a  camp  and  stay  there,  except  as  a  last  resort ;  but  camps  for  those  who 
are  in  particular  need,  where  they  can  be  induced  to  go  in,  where  the 
conditions  are  good,  and  with  no  compulsion." 

That  is  all  I  would  say  about  the  important  matter  of  settlement. 

WOULD   INCREASE   REHABILITATION   LOANS 

The  main  points  in  my  prepared  statement  are,  first,  that  there 
should  be  a  great  extension  and  enlargement  of  rehabilitation  loans 
to  those  persons  who  are  tenants,  or  perhaps  owners,  but  who  need  im- 
mediate assistance  to  enable  them  to  operate  their  farms. 

In  the  second  place,  there  should  be  a  much  greater  appropriation 
in  the  interest  of  ownership,  enabling  tenants  to  become  owners. 

The  third  point  is  the  restriction  of  the  triple  A  benefits  to  farm- 
ers whose  farms  are  below  a  certain  acreage.  I  have  said  it  should 
be  500  acres,  and  that  those  who  own  more  than  500  acres  should  not 
get  the  triple-A  benefits. 

The  fourth  point,  which  is  a  very  long-distance  one,  is  that  there 
should  be  a  supertax  on  large  lanclholdings.  Apparently  the  large 
landholdings  have  come  to  be  connected  with  the  use  of  machinery,  and 
the  use  of  machinery  has  dislodged  a  great  many  farmers.  That  ought 
to  be  prevented  somehow,  notwithstanding  our  interest  in  efficiency. 

Many  years  ago  I  heard  Justice  Brandeis,  long  before  he  was  on 
the  bench,  in  a  lecture  in  Minneapolis  on  monopoly,  in  which  he 
said,  "I  hope  we  shall  never  become  a  Nation  of  hired  men."  That 
is  what  our  farm  population  is  becoming,  to  a  great  extent — a  Nation 
of  hired  men — and  that  is  bad  business. 

I  think  that  summarizes  what  I  have  to  say. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  We  have,  of  course,  two  aspects  of  this  problem.  One 
is  that,  as  a  Government,  we  have  the  immediate  problem  of  re- 
lieving these  people  and  providing  them  with  food,  clothing,  and 
shelter.  Then  we  have  the  long-term  problem  of  endeavoring  to 
find  places  for  them  in  our  economy  where  they  would  be  able  to 
earn  their  own  way. 

I  am  happy  to  notice  that  your  recommendations  are  directed 
principally  toward  a  long-term  solution  of  the  problem.  I  think 
that,  as  a  Government,  that  is  where  our  greatest  efforts  should  be 
placed. 

We  have,  of  course,  a  great  many  different  relief  set-ups  that  are 
cumbersome  and  do  not,  in  all  instances,  work. 

I  was  very  much  interested  in  your  remarks  as  to  the  restriction 
of  these  triple-A  payments.     The  question  came  before  us  several 


Q^Q^  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

days  ao-0  when  we  had  some  of  the  men  from  the  Department  of 
A^riciiltnre  here.  They  expressed  their  veiws  on  that  subject,  and 
I  would  like  to  have  your  opinion  on  it. 

They  said  that  if  payments  were  not  available  to  the  very  large 
farms,  the  so-called  industrialized,  or  corporate,  farms,  they  would 
fail  to  observe  the  crop  restrictions  that  go  with  the  triple-A  pro- 
oram,  and  thereby  lower  farm  prices,  to  the  detriment  of  everybody 
en.o-ao-ed  in  agriculture.     Would  you  say  that  is  a  likely  happening? 

Slonsignor  Ryan.  I  do  not  know  about  that,  but  I  do  not  see  how, 
rio-ht  now,  that  that  would  happen  to  any  significant  extent,  cer- 
tatnly  not  to  the  extent  that  would  wipe  out  the  benfits.  The  benfits 
seein  to  be  pretty  obvious,  from  what  has  been  said  by  a  good  many 
persons  as  to  the  relation  between  these  payments  to  farm  operators 
and  the  displacement  of  the  small  man. 

I  do  not  pretend  to  understand  how  it  works,  but  it  seems  that 
that  is  the  fact.  I  do  not  believe  the  increase  in  production  and  the 
taking  off  of  these  restrictions  on  their  acreage  by  the  large  farmers 
would  completely  offset  the  benefits  of  which  I  speak. 

But  I  am  not  an  expert. 

RURAL    MIGRATION    IMPORTANT    PROBLEM 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  notice  in  your  prepared  statement  you  devote  your- 
self rather  exclusively  to  the  question  of  rural  migration.  Do  you 
regard  the  urban  migration  problem  as  a  serious  one,  or  do  you  feel 
that  urban  migration  is  not  as  great  as  the  other? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  I  think  now  the  importance  of  the  rural  problem 
is  much  greater  than  the  other.  The  other,  like  the  poor,  we  always 
have  with  use.  We  always  have  the  problem  of  those  who  leave  the 
farms  and  go  to  the  city,'and  migrants  from  the  city  to  the  country, 
and  that  problem  is  not  usually  a  great  one.  It  was  serious  in  the 
first  years  of  the  depression.  No  doubt  a  great  number  did  go  from 
the  cities  to  the  farms.  But  as  soon  as  business  picks  up  that  trend 
ceases. 

If  we  are  headed  now  for  something  like  full  employment  withm  a 
year,  then  I  think  the  question  of  urban  persons  going  to  farms  will 
not  be  of  any  great  importance. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Do  you  look  for  an  increase  or  a  decrease  in  migration? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Well,  it  mainly  depends  upon  the  degree  to 
which  business  will  pick  up,  and  something  like  full  employment  be 
secured.  If  that  occurs,  the  problem  of  migrants,  both  rural  and 
urban,  will  be  considerably  diminished,  for  various  reasons.  I  do  not 
think  there  is  any  question  about  that. 

RURAL  AID  NOT  AFFECTING  URBAN  MIGRANTS 

Mr.  OsMERS.  If  a  program  such  as  you  have  outlined  in  your 
prepared  statement  is  put  into  effect,  do  you  feel  that  there  will 
be  decreased  migration  from  the  cities  to  the  land,  particularly  on 
the  part  of  people  who  live  a  marginal  existence  in  the  cities  today? 

Monseigneur  Ryan.  I  do  not  think  so.  Wiat  I  am  talking  about 
is  rehabilitation  loans  for  those  who  are  farmers,  and  ownership  for 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3495 

those  who  are  tenants.  To  whatever  extent  that  is  realized,  it  will 
not  help  the  urban  person  who  wants  to  o;o  to  the  farm  very  much, 
except  if  there  was  general  prosperity  on  the  farms  there  would 
be  more  opportunity  for  workers  there  and  employees  on  the  farms. 
But  directly,  I  do  not  think  the  proposal  I  make  for  rural  migrants 
would  affect  the  situation  of  those  going  to  the  cities. 

All  of  my  life  I  have  been  acquainted  with  persons  going  from 
the  farms  to  the  cities.  I  recall,  perhaps  before  some  of  you  fjentle- 
men  were  born,  that  the  parish  priest — I  grew  up  on  a  farm  in  Minne- 
sota— protested  against  the  young  people  going  to  the  city.  That 
had  just  about  started.  We  were  only  about  20  miles  from  St.  Paul, 
and  it  was  pretty  easy  to  go  to  the  city.  They  said  then  that  if 
we  wanted  to  go  to  the  city  we  w^anted  to  see  the  electric  lights. 
There  have  been  a  great  many  more  attractive  things  provided  now 
than  electric  lights.  That  sort  of  thing  has  been  going  on  all  the 
time,  and  I  do  not  know  any  way  to  stop  it.  I  do  not  know  that 
there  is  any  way  to  stop  it,  certainly  not  by  legal  compulsion. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  think  the  only  way  to  stop  it  would  be  to  make  the 
rural  areas  more  attractive  places  in  which  to  live.  I  think  the  Amer- 
ican rural  youth  is  rather  interested  in  taking  a  fling  at  the  cities  and 
always  will  be. 

In  your  statement  you  recommend  that  increased  farm  prices  would 
tend  to  greatly  improve  the  situation.  I  realize  that  that  is  a  very 
large  order.     What  machinery  would  you  suggest  to  increase  prices? 

Monsignor  Kyax.  I  just  included  that  proposal  among  the  other  pro- 
posals.    I  could  not  answer  that  question  comprehensively. 

I  think  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  has  been,  to 
a  limited  extent,  perhaps  successful  in  the  measures  it  has  put  into 
operation  to  raise  farm  prices.  That  farm  prices  should  be  raised, 
I  think  nobody  doubts.  As  to  the  method  of  doing  it,  the  Agricul- 
tural Adjustment  Administration  has  done  something  about  it. 

If  we  had  general  prosperity,  I  think  the  question  of  farm  prices 
would  be  largely  solved  because  people  in  the  cities  w^ould  have  more 
buying  power.  I  tie  a  great  deal  of  that  up  with  the  question  of  full 
employment  and  full  production. 

Mr.'OsMERS.  In  regard  to  the  question  of  full  production,  Monsignor, 
would  you  say  that  in  our  effort  to  raise  prices  we  have  been  too  re- 
strictive with  respect  to  production? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  I  do  not  think  so. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Would  you  say  we  have  overproduced  or  undercon- 
sumed  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  We  have  underconsumed. 

SUPERTAX  FOR  LARGE  FARM  OWNERS 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  have  just  two  more  points  I  w^ant  to  ask  you  about. 
I  would  like  to  go  into  the  suggestion  as  to  a  supertax  for  a  moment, 
that  is  a  supertax  on  the  large  owners. 

Would  you  say  that  there  was  a  little  philosophy  of  the  single  tax 
in  that  ? 


2^gg  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Monsigiior  Kyan.  Well,  a  little ;  yes.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  put  that 
in  a  textbook  I  referred  to,  in  the  chapter  where  I  discussed  the  single 
tax.  It  was  one  remedy  which  I  thought  was  better  than  the  single 
tax,  because  I  am  not  a  single-taxer. 

I  had  read  a  part  of  Henry  George's  book  when  I  was  14  years  of 
age,  and  I  have  a  lot  of  sympathy  with  it.  They  have  some  fairly  good 
ideas,  but  as  to  the  whole  program — no. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  One  more  question :  I  would  like  to  have  your  opinion 
on  the  effect  of  world  peace  on  America's  economy  and,  of  course,  its 
effect  on  the  migrant  problem. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  World  peace  would  certainly  be  helpful,  but  how 
helpful  no  one  can  say  now,  because  we  do  not  know  what  kind  of  a 
peace  is  going  to  come. 

Certainly  war  has  disturbed  our  economic  relations  with  other  coun- 
tries very  considerably,  and  to  a  great  extent  harmfully,  although  our 
exports,  because  of  war  demands,  are  greater  than  a  year  ago. 

But  any  peace  arrangement  that  is  applicable  would  be  helpful  to 
every  economic  problem  we  have  and  would  help  solve  every  economic 
problem  we  have  here,  partly  and  gradually,  at  any  rate.  It  certainly 
would  be  preferable  to  what  we  have  now. 

DEFENSE  PROGRAM    INCREASES   MIGRATION 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Do  you  feel,  Monsignor,  that  peace,  or  an  end  of  our 
domestic  defense  program,  would  greatly  upset  our  economy  for  a 
while  and  cause  the  greatest  migration  ever  seen  in  this  country  ? 

We  are  now  building  defense  plants,  powder  plants,  and  other  plants 
far  out  in  the  hills  and  far  removed  from  any  other  source  of  income, 
and,  if  peace  should  come,  all  those  people  would  have  to  migrate, 
because  in  some  of  those  locations  there  is  no  agriculture  and  no  other 
industry. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  No  doubt  such  a  change  could  have  very  evil  ef- 
fects, first,  if  it  came  suddenly ;  and  secondly,  if  adequate  preparations 
were  not  made  by  the  Government  to  meet  it. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  To  absorb  the  shock  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes.  The  change  from  a  munitions-producing 
economy  to  the  ordinary  economy  need  not  be  disastrous.  Suppose, 
when  peace  came,  we  should  have  nearly  full  employment  and  were 
going  to  close  a  great  many  factories  making  war  materials.  It  would 
be  possible  to  shift  those  persons  to  regular  production,  provided  that 
the  distribution  of  production  was  such  that  those  who  wanted  to  buy 
had  the  money  with  which  to  buy.  They  are  going  to  have  that  period 
toward  which  they  will  have  to  go,  and  at  the  end  of  that  period  it  is 
going  to  be  a  big  problem,  and  special  steps  will  have  to  be  taken. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  If  it  were  continuous  over  a  period  of  years,  and  if  we 
go  into  the  war,  as  long  as  we  continue  to  consider  human  beings  still 
worth  considering,  do  not  you  think  it  is  a  strong  threat  to  our  basic 
form  of  government  and  that  such  a  shock  would  bring  about  a  great 
economic  dislocation  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  I  do  not  know. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3497 

Mr.  OsMEES.  Let  me  suppose  a  case :  That  tomorrow  morning  five 
or  ten  million  men  should  be  wholly  or  partially  unemployed  at  one 
time,  do  you  believe  that  a  group  of  those  men,  or  many  of  them,  would 
sit  down  without  doing  something  about  it  ? 

Monsignor  Kyan.  No;  but  suppose  that  should  occur  tomorrow 
morning,  as  you  say.  Congressman,  there  are  certain  provisions  which 
have  been  adopted  by  the  Federal  Government  which  would  aid  that 
considerably. 

APPROVES  GOVERNMENT  PLANNING 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Do  you  feel  that  would  lead  to  a  period  of  greater 
regulation.  Government  regulation,  and  Government  control  of  every- 
thing to  keep  things  running?  Is  not  that  found  in  every  instance, 
either  in  Europe  or  elsewhere,  when  to  have  complete  war  it  has 
required  Government  planning,  tearing  down  the  last  iota  of  personal 
liberty? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  I  think  that  some  general  program  would  be 
necessary  but  it  seems  to  me  that,  as  far  as  necessary,  it  should 
be  temporary. 

Now,  you  mentioned  about  planning,  even  planning  for  the  people 
themselves,  I  was  in  favor  of  the  bill  that  Congressman  Jerry 
Voorhis  and  others  introduced  along  the  line  of  industrial  expansion. 
Whether  that  would  work  or  not  I  do  not  know,  but  I  am  for  the  plan- 
ning thing.  The  great  question  is  how  much  compulsion  you  are 
going  to  put  into  the  planning,  direct  compulsion,  whether  through 
inducements  to  the  manufacturers  who  comply,  through  a  20-percent 
allotment,  or  10  percent.  I  think  that  you  are  going  to  have  a  lot 
of  that. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Curtis. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Monsignor  Ryan,  I  for  one  have  great  appreciation 
of  your  coming  here  and  of  the  valuable  and  specific  recommendations 
in  reference  to  migration  to  areas  of  agriculture.  I  was  intensely 
interested  in  that. 

EFFECT  or  MIGRATION   ON   CHURCHES 

What  effect  has  there  been  noticed,  because  of  migration  in  rural 
areas,  upon  churches  and  church  life  of  America  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  I  am  afraid  I  could  not  speak  on  that  with  any 
authority.     I  have  not  paid  much  attention  to  it. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Would  you  care  to  make  any  observation  about  it  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  I  doubt,  that  as  far  as  the  Catholic  Church  is 
concerned,  its  effect  has  been  very  great.  Unfortunately  the  ma- 
jority— I  say  unfortunately  from  one  standpoint — the  majority  of 
Catholics,  about  80  percent  of  them,  live  in  the  cities  of  this  country. 
As  my  pastor  used  to  say,  many  of  them  went  there  perhaps  to  see 
the  electric  lights,  so  I  doubt  if  there  were  very  many  Catholics  in- 
volved in  this  migration  from  farms,  particularly  from  the  Dust 
Bowl  area.     But  I  have  not  paid  much  attention  to  it. 

Mr.  Curtis.  In  addition  to  what  is  planned  under  what  we  may  call 
an  economically  wise  planned  program  that  can  be  instituted  for  just 
relief,  we  still  must  encourage  individual  sacrifice. 


3498 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Monsignor  Kyan.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  urge  thrift  and  economy. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes. 

SOCIAL  SECURITY  FOR  DEFENSE  WORKERS 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  think  that  there  should  be  an  exploration  into 
the  question  of  security  for  individuals  employed  in  industry  that 
is  concerned  purely  with  national  defense  ? 

Monsignor  Eyan.  Purely  what? 

Mr.  Curtis.  Purely  national  defense,  with  no  peacetime  function 
whatsoever,  that  a  portion  of  their  wages,  in  addition  to  what  is  al- 
ready taken  for  social  security,  should  be  retained  to  help  these  in- 
dividuals cushion  themselves  against  that  day  when  that  industry 
may  disappear  entirely? 

Now,  all  of  these  contracts  are  under  the  direct  jurisdiction  of 
the  Federal  Government;  the  Federal  Government  makes  the  appro- 
priation, specifies  what  can  be  done  in  the  contract,  and  largely 
what  the  wages  shall  be,  so  we  have,  perhaps,  authority  to  do  that. 

Now  I  am  not  asking  you  to  agree  or  disagree  with  such  a  thing, 
but  do  you  think  that  something  of  that  kind  should  be  explored  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  It  should  be  explored;  yes;  but  I  would  not  be 
in  favor  of  arbitrary  compulsion.  I  think  perhaps  there  should  be 
something  in  addition,  but  it  should  be  brought  about  by  moral 
suasion;  that  people  engaged  in  that  work  should  be  encouraged  to 
do  it ;  but  to  compel  them  to  do  it,  I  would  question. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Perhaps  I  did  not  state  my  question  in  the  form  I 
should.  The  thought  was  not,  under  law,  to  compel  men  to  take 
money  that  has  reached  their  hands  and  invest  their  savings  in  a 
specific  thing.  I  mean  to  make  the  wages  payable  so  that  a  part  of 
it  would  stay  to  help  cushion  themselves  against  the  time  when  that 
entire  industry  disappears. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Well,  it  seems  to  me  that  would  be  compulsory 
thrift  and  I  do  not  like  the  element  of  compulsion. 

J.  Maynard  Keynes  has  suggested  some  kind  of  a  program  like 
that  for  Great  Britain,  not  perhaps  the  same,  but  much  of  the  same 
character ;  first  as  to  what  would  be  expected  of  workers  of  that  kind, 
with  their  savings,  not  now,  but  later  on,  when  certain  changes  take 
place  in  the  prosecution  of  the  war  in  Great  Britain. 

But  I  do  not  like  the  idea  of  compulsion;  I  think  that  it  is  neces- 
sary, and  I  think  you  should  encourage  thrift. 

But,  there  are  ways,  and  the  way  has  been  shown  in  the  National 
Mediation  Act's  relation  with  the  railroads,  and  there  has  not  been 
a  major  strike  on  the  railroads  for  15  years,  I  think,  but  there  is  no 
compulsion  and  I  think  that  should  be*  sufficient  to  keep  the  defense 
industry  running. 

I  merely  mention  that  as  an  illustration  of  how  you  can  get  the 
thing  done  by  a  kind  of  persuasion  that  is  not  legal  compulsion. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  think  it  should  be  worked  out  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  AVhere  employees  agree  to  accept  this  assistance? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3499 

Mv.  Curtis.  So  they  may  have  something  to  cushion  themselves 
against  the  day  when  the  industry  disappears. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Sparkman. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Monsignor  Ryan,  I  was  very  much  interested  in 
the  remarks  yon  made  with  reference  to  farm  conditions. 

FAMILY    FARM    UNIT    BREAK-DOWN 

Is  it  your  opinion  that  there  is  a  break-down  of  the  family  farm 
unit? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Well,  all  I  know  is  what  I  have  been  reading 
of  the  testimony  before  this  committee  and  from  other  sources  as 
to  the  number,  and  that  is  not  necessarily  of  sufficient  long  standing. 
I  was  on  the  President's  i^dvisory  Committee  on  Farm  Security — 
the  Farm  Tenant  Program  I  believe  it  was  called — for  2  or  3  years, 
and  it  was  said  there  were  40,000  owners  becoming  tenants  every 
year,  and  I  do  not  suppose  that  the  proportion  has  gone  down  since 
1937  or  1938;  perhaps  it  is  bigger. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is  a  change  from  the  relationship  of  home 
ownership  to  that  of  tenancy. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  But  what  I  mean  is  this :  Do  you  think  the  number 
of  farm  units  is  decreasing? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  I  have  not  seen  the  figures  on  that.  I  suppose 
it  is  decreasing  somewhat,  but  I  think  that  if  a  million  and  a  half 
persons  have  lost  their  farms  or  have  moved  from  the  farms  in  the 
last  2  or  3  years,  as  was  testified  here  by  somebody,  that  the  number 
of  units,  farm  units,  throughout  the  country  necessarily  must  have 
decreased. 

LIMIT  AGRICULTURAL  ADJUSTMENT  ACT  BENEFICIARIES  TO   5  0  0-ACEE  FARMS 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Now,  you  recommend  that  farm  benefit  payments 
be  restricted  to  only  the  operator  or  at  least  to  those  who  cultivate 
500  acres  or  less.  You  are  familiar,  I  am  sure,  with  the  fact  that  the 
present  farm  act  limits  the  amount  that  can  be  paid  to  any  one  farm 
operation. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  believe  the  limit  is  to  $10,000,  if  I  recall  it  cor- 
rectly. When  the  legislation  was  being  debated  a  very  serious  effort 
was  made  to  cut  it  to  $5,000.  But  apparently  it  was  the  opinion  that 
$10,000  should  be  the  maximum.  Then  there  is  also  a  penalty  for 
cutting  down  the  number  of  farm  units,  that  is,  for  pushing  the  tenants 
or  sharecroppers  on  the  farm  operation  off  the  large  farms. 

The  problem,  as  was  explained  to  us  by  a  representative  of  the 
Department  of  Agriculture,  is  in  reaching  a  happy  medium  and  main- 
taining the  balance  whereby  cooperation  or  participation  of  these  large 
operators  will  be  obtained. 

Do  you  feel — I  know  Mr.  Curtis  asked  you  a  question  very  similar 
to  this,  and  I  believe  you  said  it  would  not  make  a  great  deal  of  differ- 
ence in  the  program,  in  your  opinion.     Now  representatives  from  the 


3500  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Department  of  Agriculture  told  us  that  it  would,  as  a  matter  of  fact 
that  it  might,  defeat  the  program  of  balanced  production. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Well  I  am  not  familiar  with  that  situation  at  all. 
Certainly  a  statement  by  a  representative  of  the  Department  of  Agri- 
culture is  much  more  effective  than  mine,  and  certainly  has  more  facts 
to  support  it  than  any  statement  that  I  could  make.  I  must  say  that 
I  have  not  thought  on  that  before.     I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  believe  he  told  us  also  that  the  number  of  checks 
going  out,  which  would  indicate  the  number  of  farms  actually  in 
operation,  have  not  shown  an  appreciable  decrease. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Well,  there  are  new  farmers,  I  suppose,  coming 
on  every  year;  there  is  an  increase  in  the  farm  population  as  well  as 
in  the  other  population,  so  that  statement  would  not  refute  anything, 
the  mere  fact  that  there  has  been  no  reduction  in  the  number  of  checks, 
because  if  the  farm  population  is  increasing  the  number  of  checks  to 
farms  would  likely  show  an  increase. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  The  point  is  that  these  checks  go  to  the  farm. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes ;  I  appreciate  that. 

BACK-TO-FARM  MOVEMENT 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  was  very  much  impressed  with  some  of  the  pre- 
liminary census  figures — I  do  not  know  what  the  final  figures  will 
show — but  as  far  as  the  preliminary  figures  show  that  in  the  last  10 
years  there  has  possibly  been  a  movement  from  the  cities  back  to  the 
farms ;  it  shows  certainly  that  the  rapid  increase  in  population  in  the 
large  cities  had  not  kept  pace  with  what  it  had  been  in  the  preceding 
10  years. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  I  have  not  seen  the  census  report  on  that  and  I 
am  a  bit  surprised  at  the  moderate  language,  because  certainly  we 
were  told  6  or  7  or  8  years  ago  that  there  had  been  a  great  movement 
from  the  cities  to  the  farms,  largely  by  persons  who  had  moved  previ- 
ously to  the  city  from  the  farms  and  who  thought  they  could  better 
themselves  in  their  condition  by  securing  employment  in  the  cities, 
but  who  are  now  moving  back  to  the  farms. 

I  think  there  is  no  doubt  a  considerable  migration  has  taken  place 
from  the  cities  to  the  farms  in  the  past,  say,  the  first  5  years  of  this 
decade,  I  mean,  from  1930  to  1935  or  1936. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Now,  your  idea  of  a  supertax  on  the  land,  of  course, 
would  be  a  Federal  tax  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes;  it  would  have  to  be. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  not  that  quite  a  severe  departure  from  our 
past  practice  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes ;  I  realize  that.  That  is  the  one  field  of  tax- 
ation that  the  Federal  Government  has  at  least  overlooked  up  to 
this  time,  on  real  estate  farm  land, 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  you  not  believe  there  ought  to  be  a  tendency 
for  the  Federal  Government  to  leave  some  field  alone  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3501 

SUPERTAX  FOR  1,000-ACRE  FARMS 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  stated,  I  believe,  that  such  a  tax  would  have 
to  be  based  on  an  acreage  provision  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes ;  of  a  thousand  acres  or  more. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  The  only  thought  I  wish  to  point  out  in  that  con- 
nection is  you  might  have  a  thousand  acres  in  one  locality  that  would 
be  worth  a  thousand  times  what  a  thousand  acres  would  be  in  another 
locality. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  That  is  a  local  condition,  but  in  general  terms 
you  could  set  a  normal  limitation  of  somewhere  around  1,000  acres 
and  that  limitation,  of  course,  would  be  varied  under  much  the  same 
principle  as  that  now  involved  in  the  Fair  Labor  Standards  Act.  There 
is  a  minimum  wage  fixed  by  the  Congress  for  the  whole  country.  And, 
the  variations  in  one  part  of  the  country  as  against  another  part  of 
the  country,  so  far  as  wages  are  concerned,  are  adjusted  from  that 
minimum.  I  think  we  have  to  reconcile  ourselves  to  the  general 
policy  of  setting  a  limitation  beyond  which  the  process  cannot  go,  and 
as  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Webb  said  some  time  ago,  we  must  have  a  national 
minimum ;  naturally  the  minimum  will  not  fit  everybody,  but  it  will 
fit  the  needs  of  the  majority.    That  is  all  we  can  say. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  was  thinking  that  probably  out  in  the  cattle 
country  a  thousan,d  acres  might  not  be  sufficient,  whereas  a  thousand 
acres  devoted  to  truck  farming  in  an  industrial  section  would  repre- 
sent a  huge  industrial  plant. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Well,  if  the  Federal  Government,  the  Congress, 
ever  got  around  to  putting  this  into  operation,  it  could  make  the  classi- 
fication of  land.  And  it  is  my  understanding  that  the  attitude  of  the 
Supreme  Court  is,  in  considering  a  problem  of  that  kind,  that  any 
taxing  unit  can  go  far  along  that  line,  provided  a  proper  classification  is 
made  within  that  unit. 

For  instance,  in  my  own  State  of  Mimiesota  the  State  has  a  tax  on 
iron  ore,  which  I  believe,  is  different  from  the  tax  on  the  surface  of 
the  soil.  That  was  taken  to  the  Supreme  Court,  and  the  Supreme  Court 
said  that  that  was  a  proper  classification  as  long  as  it  was  not  an 
arbitrary  one. 

Now,  to  increase  by  many  thousands  of  acres  the  limitation  for 
grazing  land  would  not  be  an  arbitrary  classification,  so  I  do  not  think 
there  would  be  any  great  difficulty  about  that. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  was  asking  the  question  for  this  reason :  To  see  if 
you  might  not  think  that,  instead  of  placing  this  arbitrary  tax  on 
land,  you  might  have  a  levy  on  machines,  whether  you  think  that  would 
be  preferable.  I  understand  that  the  displacement  of  labor  by  ma- 
chines is  the  real  problem. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes.  Possibly  that  might  be  helpful,  but  I  have 
not  been  able  to  see  it.  In  the  first  place,  where  the  proposition  is 
defended,  it  increased  the  cost  of  production,  no  doubt ;  the  consumer 
pays  it  eventually.  Well,  you  might  say  also  the  consumer  pays  even- 
tually for  any  decrease  in  this  very  efficient  farm-machinery  method, 
the  price  of  agricultural  products  may  be  higher,  but  I  do  not  think 
they  would  be  vei-y  much  higher  than  that  produced  by  machinery, 
and  I  think  the  explanation  involves  many  things  that  I  cannot  think 


2502  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

of,  I  am  sure.  And,  certainly  from  those  who  have  recommended  it,  I 
received  many  letters  saying  that  this  will  be  solved  by  a  tax  on 
machinery.  But  the  defense  of  the  proposal  did  not  strike  me  as 
taking  in  all  of  the  factors. 

COOPERATIVE  FARMING   EFFORTS   APPROVED 

Mr.  Spakkman.  Dr.  Taylor,  of  the  University  of  California,  at 
Berkeley,  made  a  suggestion  based  upon  the  premise  that  in  order  to 
employ  labor  on  the  farm,  in  order  for  it  to  be  economically  employed, 
that  the  farm  must  be  of  a  certain  type.  In  other  words,  just  like 
capital  laid  out  in  business,  it  had  to  be  large  enough  to  justify  the 
investment  if  you  are  going  to  make  it  profitable,  and  that  it  would 
not  be  practicable  for  the  small  individual  farm  owner,  but  that  you 
could  have  three,  four,  or  five  groups  together,  form  a  cooperative  and 
purchase  the  necessary  machinery  through  a  cooperative.  What  do 
you  think  of  that  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  I  think  it  is  a  very  fine  idea ;  yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  that  method  might  be  financed  by  the  Federal 
Government,  I  do  not  mean  by  a  grant,  but  through  loans. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes ;  I  should  think  so ;  I  am  for  all  the  coopera- 
tion possible,  and  using  the  best  machinery  there  is.  Why  not  use  it  'i 
But  let  the  use  of  machinery  be  so  arranged  that  the  individuals  would 
not  be  pushed  off  the  farm,  causing  these  farms  to  become  large  indus- 
trial operations  with  most  of  the  persons  concerned  in  it  working  for 
wages. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  think  that  is  all. 

The  Chairman.  Monsignor  Ryan,  I  have  been  very  much  interested 
in  your  remarks,  and  the  question  occurs  to  me  all  the  time  as  we  look 
into  the  picture  of  migration,  that  it  is  connected  with  every  economy 
in  our  national  life ;  that  you  cannot  consider  migration  in  itself  alone. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  It  results  from  worn-out  farms,  mechanism,  un- 
employment, and  various  things.    And  there  is  no  single  solution  to  it. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  No. 

migration  a  national  problem 

The  Chairman.  This  is  the  first  investigation  addressed  solely  to 
this  proposition.  We  have  spent  millions  of  dollars  during  our  history 
in  studying  and  establishing  regulations  for  interstate  commerce,  but 
never  for  the  interstate  movement  of  human  beings. 

Now,  one  of  the  solutions  which  you  outlined  was  rehabilitation 
loans,  in  other  words,  resettlement  loans.  In  that  regard  the  Farm 
Security  is  doing  that  very  thing,  Monsignor  Ryan.  They  have  loaned 
money  to  500,000  farmers  with  whicli.  to  buy  horses,  cows,  feed,  and 
other  things  that  are  required  to  keep  them  oil  the  farm. 

But  here  is  the  point  I  want  to  make :  In  the  Great  Plains  States 
they  have  lost  a  million  people  in  the  last  10  years;  in  the  Great  Plains 
States  5,000,000  acres  of  once  productive  soil  has  lost  25  percent  of  its 
topsoil. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3503 

Now,  I  am  particularly  interested,  Monsignor,  in  those  good  Ameri- 
can citizens  who  have  been  forced  to  move  because  of  circumstances 
over  which  they  have  no  control.  And  they  start  out  and  what  do  they 
run  into?  Tliey  come  to  a  State  border  line,  perhaps  as  a  result  of 
some  private  employment  agency  giving  them  some  misinformation, 
telling  them  there  are  jobs,  and  they  run  up  against  barriers  of  from  6- 
month  to  5-year  settlement  laws.  In  other  words,  there  are  barriers 
against  the  flow  of  humanity,  but  there  are  no  barriers  against  inter- 
state commodity  commerce. 

So,  the  thing  that  you  mentioned  is  something  that  has  been  recom- 
mended, and  is  an  idea  that  can  be  done,  to  keep  them  on  the  farms. 
And  in  our  investigations  throughout  the  United  States,  and  we  trav- 
eled 10,000  miles,  I  personally  never  have  come  across  a  single  migrant 
in  California  or  any  other  State  who  would  not  like  to  have  an  oppor- 
tunity to  stay  on  the  farm,  who  w^ould  not  be  willing  to  live  on  the 
farm,  and  I  think  that  you  will  agree  with  this  committee  that  every- 
thing indicates  it  is  a  national  problem.  You  feel  that  way,  do  you 
not? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Oh,  absolutely.  Of  course,  it  is  a  national  prob- 
lem. 

I  heard  the  figures  you  gave  a  short  time  ago,  Mr.  Chairman,  about 
the  number  of  migrants  to  California,  and  no  State  should  be  re- 
quired to  take  care  of  them;  no  State  should  be  required  to  bear  up 
under  that  burden.  Aside  from  the  nice  fresh  air  and  sunshine — and 
certainly  they  require  something  more  than  that,  as  a  brother  of  mine 
said  when  somebody  wanted  to  go  to  San  Diego — as  a  matter  of  fact, 
he  has  been  there  several  years — "San  Diego,  yes ;  but  you  cannot  live 
on  sunshine." 

Mr.  Parsons.  Well,  it  gave  California  three  extra  Members  of  Con- 
gress as  a  result  of  the  migration. 

Monsignor  Ryan.  Yes;  but  the  individual  must  have  something 
more  than  a  nice  place  to  live. 

MIGRATION  injurious  TO  NATIONAL  MORALE 

The  Chairman.  Monsignor,  our  records  disclose  there  were  about 
4,000,000  of  these  migrants  last  year  and  certainly  we  must  do  some- 
thing to  better  their  situation,  because  if  we  do  not  I  am  satisfietl 
it  wdll  strike  at  the  morale  of  the  country,  and  anything  that  strikes 
at  the  morale  of  the  country  strikes  at  our  national  defense. 

As  a  matter  of  fact,  do  you  not  know^  that  the  Census  returns  have 
been  held  up  because  there  are  hundreds  of  thousands  of  American 
citizens  who  have  not  lived  in  one  State  long  enough  to  be  assigned 
to  the  State,  and  do  you  not  think  some  provision  must  be  made 
whereby  they  can  be  citizens  of  a  State  ? 

Monsignor  Ryan.  They  certainly  ought  to  be  able  to  stay  in  one 
place  long  enough  to  be  counted  once  in  10  years.  Of  course,  it  is  a 
national  problem. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  feels  very  much  honored  to  have 
had  you  come  this  morning,  and  we  appreciate  very  much  your  valua- 
ble statement. 


3504 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Monsignor  Ryan.  It  is  a  pleasure  to  have  been  here. 

The  Chaerman.  The  committee  will  take  a  recess  until  2  o'clock. 

(At  12  noon  a  recess  was  taken  until  2  p.  m.  of  the  same  day.) 

AFTERNOON  SESSION 

The  recess  having  expired,  the  chairman,  Hon.  John  H.  Tolan, 
called  the  committee  to  order  at  2  p.  m. 

The  Chairman.  Our  next  witnesses  will  be  Miss  Hoey  and  Mr. 
Tate. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MISS  JANE  HOEY,  DIRECTOR,  BUREAU  OF  PUBLIC 
ASSISTANCE,  SOCIAL  SECURITY  BOARD;  AND  JACK  B.  TATE, 
GENERAL  COUNSEL,  DEPARTMENT  OF  EDUCATION 

The  Chairman.  Miss  Hoey,  will  you  please  give  your  full  name  and 
address,  and  your  official  position? 

Miss  HoET.  It  is  Jane  M.  Hoey,  director  of  public  assistance,  of  the 
Social  Security  Board. 

The  Chairman.  You  reside  in  Washington  ? 

Miss  Hoey.  In  Washington ;  yes. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Tate,  will  you  please  give  your  name  and  offi- 
cial connection,  for  the  record  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Jack  B.  Tate,  general  counsel  of  the  Federal  Security 
Agency.  I  reside  in  Washington.  I  would  like  to  introduce  Mr, 
Herbert  Margolis,  who  is  on  my  staff. 

The  Chairman.  I  would  like  to  say  to  you  at  the  outset  that  Con- 
gressman Sparkman  will  interrogate  Miss  Hoey,  but  in  answer  to  any 
of  the  questions,  if  there  is  anything  additional  you  would  like  to 
incorporate,  Mr.  Tate,  you  will  be  permitted  to  do  that;  likewise, 
Miss  Hoey,  you  will  be  allowed  to  interpolate  in  Mr.  Tate's  exam- 
ination. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Miss  Hoey,  I  have  read  your  statement  and  looked 
at  the  supplements  to  some  extent.  They  will  be  put  in  the  record  at 
this  point. 

statement  of  jane  m.  hoey,  director,  bureau  of  public 
assistance,  social  security  board 

Present  Situation  \N;'ith  Regard  to  Migrants  and  Recommendations  FOfR 
Theik  Care 

general  situation 

1.  There  is  legitimate  migration  which  needs  to  be  encouraged,  especially  from 
those  areas  where  it  is  impossible  at  the  present  time  to  earn  a  living  because  of 
the  economic  situation. 

2.  This  migration  as  far  as  possible  should  be  accomplished  in  an  orderly 
fashion.  Migration  can  be  controlled  to  some  extent  if  the  larger  industries, 
especially  those  with  defense  contracts,  will  utilize  the  public  employment  offices 
in  recruiting  workers. 

3.  Studies  of  migrants  indicate  that  in  general  they  are  a  young  age  group  and 
would  be  an  asset  in  any  community  if  given  an  opportunity  to  become  self- 
supporting. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3505 

4.  The  increase  in  private  employment  provided  througli  defense  industries  and 
in  other  ways  has  not,  and  in  all  probability  will  not,  take  care  of  all  the  able- 
bodied  unemployed  residents  and  migrants,  since  many  of  these  are  unskilled  and 
the  older  ones  have  been  unemployed  for  long  periods. 

5.  The  migrant  problem  has  been  greatly  magnified  recently  due  to  the  creation 
and  expansion  of  industries  for  defense  and  of  cantonments  and  other  establish- 
ments related  to  the  armed  forces  of  the  United  States.  Since  these  are  distributed 
throughout  the  United  States  almost  every  State  is  now  faced  with  this  problem 
of  the  care  of  migrants.  Previously  only  a  few  States  with  an  unusually  large 
number  of  migrants  were  aware  of  the  problem. 

FACTS  ABOUT  RELIEF  SITUATION 

1.  The  \\'ork  Projects  Administration,  Public  Works  Administration,  National 
Youth  Administration,  and  Civilian  Conservation  Corps  programs  have  never 
absorbed  all  able-bodied,  unemployed  persons  in  need  of  employment. 

2.  Twelve  States  do  not  make  available  any  State  funds  to  assist  their  local 
political  subdivisions  in  providing  relief  for  needy  persons  for  whom  work  is  not 
suitable  or  available  and  who  are  not  eligible  for  one  of  the  three  categories  of 
public  assistance. 

3.  The  local  communities,  except  in  a  limited  number  of  States,  have  not  appro- 
priated funds  in  sufficient  amount  to  provide  even  the  minimum  subsistence  needs 
for  persons  without  sufficient  resources  to  maintain  themselves. 

4.  A  tax  on  property,  the  chief  basis  for  revenue  raising  in  most  communities, 
does  not  produce  sufficient  revenue  to  meet  all  local  governmental  expenses  and 
finance  an  adequate  relief  program  in  addition  in  most  communities  in  the  United 
States. 

5.  With  a  limited  number  of  exceptions,  in  the  last  5  years  the  States  and 
localities  pooling  their  resources  and  the  Federal  Government  sharing  50  percent 
of  the  cost  of  public  assistance  for  the  three  groups  have  provided  only  inadequate 
public  assistance  for  many  needy  aged  and  blind  persons  and  dependent  children. 
In  many  States  there  are  long  waiting  lists  of  eligible  aged  persons  and  dependent 
children  for  whom  no  provision  is  made,  usually  due  to  lack  of  resources.  Even 
though  under  the  public  assistance  titles  of  the  Social  Security  Act,  local  residence 
as  a  basis  of  eligibility  has  been  eliminated  and  only  State  residence  required, 
in  many  States  settlement  and  residence  laws  are  so  restrictive  that  even  aged 
and  blind  persons,  otherwise  eligible,  who  have  not  lived  5  out  of  9  years  in  the 
State,  one  of  which  must  have  been  immediately  preceding  the  application,  are 
denied  public  assistance.  Lack  of  citizenship  in  many  States  also  excludes 
otherwise  eligible  aged  and  blind  persons. 

6.  "While  the  number  of  persons  adversely  affected  because  of  restrictive  resi- 
dence or  settlement  laws  is  not  known  for  the  country  at  large,  a  rough  measure 
of  their  infiueuce  is  shown  by  the  fact  that  in  seven  States,  the  District  of 
Columbia,  and  Cook  County  (Chicago),  111.,  for  which  data  are  available  during 
specified  periods  in  1937  and  1938,  from  1.5  percent  to  7.4  percent  of  the  applicants 
for  old-age  assistance  were  rejected  because  the  applicant  was  ineligible  because 
of  residence  requirements."  ^ 

RECOMMENDATIONS 

1.  The  Council  of  National  Defense  and  its  Advisory  Commission  should  be 
asked  to  request  all  firms  receiving  defense  contracts  to  utilize  to  the  fullest 
possible  extent  the  free  public  employment  service  for  recruitment  of  new 
employees. 

2.  The  Federal  work  programs,  including  Public  Works  Administration,  Work 
Projects  Administration,  National  Youth  Administration,  and  Civilian  Conserva- 
tion Corps,  should  be  extended  to  include  all  employable  unemployed  persons  in 
need,  residents  and  migrants. 

3.  The  vocational  rehabilitation  program  is  restricted  to  those  who  can  be 
placed  in  competitive  industry.     This  program  should  be  broadened,  or  a  new 


1  Data  secured  from  the  Division  of  Public  Assistance  Research,  Bureau  of  Research  and 
Statistics,  Social  Security  Board,  compiled  January  4,  1939. 


orQf?  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

program  developed,  to  include  all  persons  who  could  be  trained  for  partial,  if  not 

**^?^  All  Federal  laws  providing  grants-in-aid  to  States  should  be  conditioned,  in 
addition  to  other  requirements,  upon  the  States  agreement  to  extend  services  to 
all  persons  living  in  the  State  without  regard  to  length  of  residence.  This  condi- 
tion should  be  applicable  to  such  programs  as  vocational  rehabilitation,  health 
services  child  welfare,  public  assistance,  farm  security,  and  surplus  commodities. 
5  The  Social  Security  Act  should  be  amended  to  provide  Federal  grants-in-aid 
to  States  for  general  relief  for  needy  residents  and  migrants  for  whom  Federal 
work  programs  are  not  suitable  or  available.  Federal  funds  should  be  made 
available  to  match  50  percent  of  the  cost  of  administration  and  assistance.  The 
State  should  be  required  to  submit  a  plan  with  provisions  similar  to  those  now 
included  in  the  Social  Security  Act  relating  to  public  assistance.  The  responsi- 
bility for  the  supervision  of  this  program  should  be  in  the  same  agency  as  the 
other  assistance  programs,  that  is,  the  Social  Security  Board. 

SUGGESTED   PROVISIONS   NOT   KHXX>MMBNDBD 

1.  Federal  grants-in-aid  to  States  on  a  100-percent  basis  for  public  assistance 

to  migrants:  ,,.....  -^  ^  i, 

(a)  If  a  lOO^percent  grant  for  assistance  and  administration  were  provided  by 
the  Federal  Government  for  migrants,  this  would  relieve  the  localities  and  the 
States  of  a  financial  burden,  but  might  result  in  an  attempt  on  the  part  of  the 
States  and  localities  with  inadequate  resources  to  classify  residents  as  migrants 
in  order  to  secure  Federal  funds  or  encourage  residents  whose  need  is  not  being 
met  to  become  migrants  in  order  to  secure  necessary  assistance  not  available  to 
residents.  Thus  undesirable  migration  would  be  increased,  not  lessened.  This 
would  also  entail  a  very  large  expenditure  on  the  part  of  the  Federal  Government 
without  effecting  a  desirable  solution  of  this  problem. 

(6)  If  public  assistance  were  granted  to  migrants  on  the  same  level  as  assist- 
ance granted  to  residents,  those  States  having  a  high  level  of  assistance  payments 
would  undoubtedly  have  an  influx  of  migrants.  This  would  result  in  other  welfare 
problems  arising  in  these  areas  because  of  inadequate  facilities  for  housing,  medi- 
cal care,  and  education.  Any  attempt  on  the  part  of  the  Federal  Government  to 
provide  public  assistance  on  a  flat  grant  basis  for  the  relief  of  migrants  would  not 
meet  individual  needs  and  would  result  in  a  distinction  between  the  care  given 
to  migrants  and  residents. 

2.  Federal  grants-in-aid  to  States  on  a  50-percent  basis  for  public  assistance  to 
migrants  alone  without  any  Federal  provision  for  needy  residents : 

(a)  A  50-percent  Federal  grant  to  States  for  public  assistance  to  migrants 
would  undoubtedly  result  in  the  very  limited  funds  now  available  for  general 
relief  for  residents  being  further  depleted  in  order  to  provide  matching  funds  for 
the  care  of  migrants.  This  situation  would  merely  increase  the  present,  antagon- 
ism of  residents  toward  nonresidents. 

(&)  Since  States  could  not  be  forced  to  pass  appropriate  legislation  to  take 
advantage  of  the  Federal  grant  for  migrants,  they  might  refuse  to  submit  a  State 
plan  for  this  purpose  and  prefer  to  utilize  their  available  funds  to  meet  the  need 
of  local  residents. 


SUPPLEMENT     I     TO     STATEMENT     BY     JANE     M.     HOEY,     DIRECTOR, 
BUREAU   OF    PUBLIC   ASSISTANCE,    SOCIAL-  SECURITY   BOARD 

Legal   Requirements   for   Residence,    General  Relief 

The  principle  of  legal  residence  or  settlement  that  underlay  the  old  approach 
to  general  poor  relief  caused  many  difficulties  during  the  depression  period  in 
relation  to  unemployment  relief.  Consequently  there  was  a  separate  handling 
of  the  nonresident  and  transient  group.  At  the  present  time,  the  realignment 
of  assistance  programs  makes  no  special  provision  for  these  nonresident  and 
transient  individuals  and  families  although  the  same  problem  still  persists. 

The  settlement  laws  of  the  United  States  lack  uniformity  and  are  much 
more  complicated  than  those  of  England.     These  laws  relate  to  the  length  of 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  35Q7 

residence  in  States,  counties,  or  towns  to  acquire  settlement;  tlie  period  of 
fibsence  to  lose  legal  residence;  the  removal  of  nonresidents,  and  regulations 
against  bringing  in  nonsettled  poor.  In  addition,  there  are  provisions  concerning 
the  effect  of  marriage,  divorce,  and  desertion  that  affect  the  settlement  of 
w(»men,  and  other  regulations  concerning  the  settlement  of  children.  Naturally 
disputes  over  eligibility  for  relief  often  occur  and  some  groups  are  ineligibfe 
in  any  jurisdiction. 

These  elaborate  provisions  regarding  "settlement"  or  legal  residence  for  pur- 
poses of  public  aid,  followed  the  theory  of  local  responsibility  and  were  writ- 
ten into  the  earliest  poor  laws  to  protect  the  local  taxpayers.  Settlement 
controversies  are  closely  related  to  the  transportation  agreement,  court  deci- 
sions, attorney  general's  opinions,  and  interstate  agreements,  but  the  only 
point  to  be  made  here  is  that  because  of  this  complicated  system  of  local  relief 
many  people  are  ineligible  for  assistance. 

It  is  not  only  the  transients  who  are  involved  in  this  loss  of  eligibility,  but 
resident  families  who  through  a  technicality  such  as  going  across  a  State  line 
in  search  of  elusive  work  opportunities  lose  their  eligibility.  Under  restrictive 
phrases,  such  as  "continuous  period  of  3  years,"  ^  when  rigidly  interpreted  by 
the  courts,  families  lose  residence  and  thus  lose  their  right  to  obtain  assistance 
when  in  need. 

Because  residence  requirements  for  acquisition  of  settlement  in  the  various 
States  ranges  from  6  months  to  5  years,  and  because  these  requirements  do 
not  coincide  with  the  statutory  provisions  for  loss  of  settlement,  it  is  easy  to 
lose  residence  in  one  State  without  acquiring  it  elsewhere.  In  addition  there 
are  local  requirements  for  settlement,  so  that  within  some  States  siiecial  pro- 
vision is  made  for  caring  for  State  poor  who  are  without  local  settlement  but 
have  State  residence  (New  York  and  Massachusetts  for  example).  In  other 
States  such  people  are  ineligible  for  general  assistance. 

In  spite  of  the  premise  on  which  general  relief  programs  are  based  there  are 
two  groups  which  States  and/or  localities  sometimes  declare  by  law  to  be 
ineligible  for  relief. 

1.  Aliens. — Four  States,  Pennsylvania,  Oklahoma,  Delaware,  South  Carolina, 
have  laws  excluding  nonresidents  from  relief.  In  Connecticut  aliens  may 
receive  relief  only  by  vote  of  selectmen,  and  justices  of  peace,  and  inhabitants,^ 
while  two  counties  in  Maryland  refuse  relief  to  noncitizens.^ 

2.  Persons  lacking  legal  settlement  {iiiigrants,  transients,  and  nonresidents) . 

Legal  settlement  is  a  technical  term  which  means  residence  of  a  specified  length 
and  under  circumstances  which  entitle  a  person  to  assistance  from  a  political 
unit. 

In  nearly  one-half  of  the  States  there  are  both  State  and  local  residence 
requirements.  One-third  of  the  State  statutes  specify  periods  of  local  residence 
only.  In  four  States  (Delaware,  Minnesota,  Pennsylvania,  West  Virginia), 
there  are  State  residence  requirements  but  no  local  residence  requirements' 
No  residence  requirements  are  required  by  statute  in  five  States  (Arkansas' 
Florida.  Kentucky,  New  Mexico,  Texas).  However,  even  in  four  States  not 
Laving  legal  residence  requirements  it  is  customary  to  refuse  relief  to  persons 
who  have  not  been  residents  for  a  specified  period.* 

1  Trosent  Illinoi.s  law.  for  example. 

2  Compilation  of  Settlement  Laws,  American  Public  Welfare  A'jsoeiation.  September  lO.Sq 
In  Appraisal  of  Trends  in  Research  Legislation  and  Administrative  Policy  in  the  Public 
Social  Services  "  compiled  for  1940  Delegate  Conference  American  Associat  on  of  Social 
Workers  it  is  stated  "In  Oklahoma  citizenship  has  been  dropped  from  the  requirement  for 
eligibility  because  so  few  residents  are  not  citizens  and  the  cost  of  proving  tl  e  citizenship 
of  applicants  is  very  high,"  p.  7.  1  »  ^   -^  v-xii^curMiip 

3  State  Public  Welfare  Legislation,  Division  of  Research,  Works  Progress  Administration 
Research  Monograph  XX,  January  1,  1939,  p.^Sl,  footnote  1.5  ^"sress  Aaministiation, 

^Florida,  Kentucky.  New  Mexico,  Texas.  Compilation  of  Settlement  Laws  Amerimn 
Public  Welfare  Association,  Septemberl9.39,  p.  6.  ^ecoement  i.a\^s,   American 


260370— 41— pt.  9- 


3508 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Table  I. — Residence  requirements  {with  restrictions)  for  acquisition  of 
settlement  in  the  various  States 


1-year 

period 

Not 

6  months 

practiced, 
assumed,  or 

lyear 

2  years 

3  years 

4  years 

5  years 

specified 

accepted 

Alabama, 

Florida, 

District  of 

Delaware, 

Arizona, 

Connecti- 

Kansas, 

Arkansas,> 
Maryland. 

Mississippi. 

Kentucky, 

Columbia, 

Minnesota, 

California, 

cut. 

Maine, 

New  Mex- 

Georgia, 

Colorado, 

Massa- 

ico, 

Idaho, 

Illinois, 

chusetts, 

Texas. 

Louisiana, 
Michigan, 
Missouri, 
Montana, 
Nebraska, 
New  York, 
North 
Carolina,' 
North 
Dakota, 
Ohio, 

Oklahoma, 
Pennsyl- 
vania,' 
South 

Dakota, 
Tennessee, 
Utah, 
Virginia,' 
Washing- 
ton, 
West  Vir- 
ginia, 
Wisconsin, 
Wyoming. 

Indiana, 
Nevada, 
Oregon, 
South 

Carolina, 
Vermont. 

New 
Hamp- 
shire,' 
New  Jer- 
sey,' 
Rhode 
Island. 

1  See  Compilation  of  Settlement  Laws  of  all  States  in  the  United  States  (revised  as  of  September  1939) 
American  Public  Welfare  Association,  Chicago,  October  1939. 

Note  —In  all  States  it  is  usually  stipulated  or  assumed  that  the  required  residence  period  must  be  with 
out  receipt  of  relief.    Some  States  specify  both  public  or  private  relief,  others  merely  public  assistance. 


Table  II. — Loss  of  settlement 


Less  than  1  year's 
absence 

1  year's  absence 

5  years'  ab- 
sence ' 

Intent « 

Not  speci- 
fied 3 

Acquisition 
of  new  set- 
tlement 

3  years 

Mississippi  (6  months). 
South  Dakota  (30  days), 

Arizona, 

Maine, 

Alabama, 

Arkansas,* 

Connecti- 

Vermont. 

California, 

Massachu- 

Georgia,* 

Delaware, 

cut, 

Utah  (4  months). 

Colorado, 

setts, 

Illinois,* 

Idaho, 

Pennsyl- 

District of  Co- 

New 

West  Vir- 

Louisi- 

vania,* 

lumbia, 

Hamp- 

ginia, 

ana,* 

Virginia,* 

Florida,^ 

shire,* 

Maryland, 

North 

Indiana, 

Rhode  Is- 

Nevada,* 

Carolina, 

Iowa, 

land. 

New  Mex- 

Kansas,< 

ico,* 

Kentucky, 

Ohio, 

Michigan,* 

Oklahoma, 

Minnesota, 

South 

Missouri, 

Carolina, 

Montana, 

Tennessee, 

Nebraska, 

Texas. 

New  Jersey, 

New  York, 

North   Dako- 

ta, 

Oregon, 

Washington, 

Wisconsin, 

Wyoming. 

'  In  these  States  settlement  is  lost  after  an  absence  of  5  years  unless  a  new  one  is  gained  elsewhere  in  the 

2  This  usually  indicated  that  the  individual  or  family  has  left  the  State  with  the  intention  of  taking  up 
permanent  residence  elsewhere.  ,     ,         ^     _,  .  .^  .    ,.  ,j  .i.  ^     ^.,  ^-    ,    . 

3  In  most  States  that  have  no  specific  provision  for  the  loss  of  settlement  it  is  held  that  settlement  is  lost 
by  being  removed  from  the  State  for  1  year.  .     ,  „  ,      .     ,         ,  „  ,_       „„„, 

<  See  Compilation  of  Settlement  Laws  of  All  States  in  the  United  States  (revised  as  of  September  1939), 
American  Public  Welfare  Association,  Chicago,  October  1939. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  35Q9 


SUPPLEMENT     II    TO    STATEMENT    BY    JANE     M.     HOEY,     DIRECTOR, 
BUREAU    OF  PUBLIC  ASSISTANCE,    SOCIAL    SECURITY   BOARD 

Teends  in  Residence  Requirements  for  Public  Assistance  Categories 

November  27,  1940. 
residence 

In  1936,  33  of  the  42  old-age  assistance  plans  required  State  residence  of  5  out 
of  9  years  immediately  preceding  application  and  1  year  immediately  preceding 
application.  Two  more  States  did  not  specify  that  1  year  must  immediately  pre- 
cede application.  Two  States  required  5  out  of  10  years  immediately  preceding 
application  and  1  year  immediately  preceding.  Four  more  States  had  the  same 
requirement  except  for  the  1-year  residence  immediately  preceding  application. 
One  State  required  residence  of  2  of  9  years  immediately  preceding  application  and 
1  year  immediately  preceding  application.  Twelve  of  the  27  aid-to-the-blind  plans 
required  5  of  9  years  and  1  year  immediately  preceding,  and  11  more  had  the  same 
requirement,  but  added  that  persons  may  be  eligible  if  sight  was  lost  while  a  resi- 
dent of  the  State.  Two  States  required  5  of  9  years  immediately  preceding  appli- 
cation but  did  not  specify  that  1  year  must  immediately  precede  application  and 
one  of  these  granted  assistance  to  those  who  had  lost  sight  while  residing  in  the 
State.  Two  States  required  only  1  year's  residence.  For  aid  to  dependent  children 
22  States  required  that  the  child  must  have  resided  in  the  State  for  1  year  preced- 
ing application  or  was  born  within  1  year  in  the  State  and  the  mother  was  a  resi- 
dent of  the  State  for  1  year  immediately  preceding  birth.  One  State  required  that 
the  clvild  must  have  resided  in  the  State  for  1  year  preceding  application,  or  was 
born  in  the  State  within  1  year  preceding  application.  One  State  required  that 
child  must  have  resided  in  the  State  for  1  year  preceding  application  or  was  born 
in  the  State.  In  2  States  the  mother  or  custodian  must  have  been  a  resident  for  1 
year  prior  to  application.  One  State  specified  no  residence  requirement  for  aid  to 
dependent  children. 

In  1937,  38  old-age  assistance  plans  required  State  residence  5  of  9  years  imme- 
diately preceding  application  and  1  year  immediately  preceding  application.  Three 
States  did  not  specify  that  1  year  must  immediately  precede  application.  One 
State  required  5  of  10  years  immediately  preceding  application  and  1  year  imme- 
diately preceding  and  3  States  required  only  5  out  of  10  years  iimnediately  preced- 
ing application.  One  State  required  residence  of  2  out  of  9  years  immediately 
preceding  application  and  1  year  must  immediately  precede  application.  Four 
States  require  only  1  year's  residence.  Thirty  aid-to-the-blind  plans  i-equired 
residence  of  5  out  of  9  years,  and  1  year  must  immediately  precede  application ; 
17  of  these  also  made  eligible  those  persons  who  lost  sight  while  residents  of  the 
State.  Two  States  required  residence  of  5  out  of  9  years  immediately  preceding 
application  and  one  of  these  made  eligible  persons  who  lost  sight  while  residents 
of  State.  Six  States  required  only  1  year's  residence.  For  aid  to  dependent  chil- 
dren, 34  plans  required  that  the  child  must  have  resided  in  the  State  for  1  year 
preceding  application  or  was  born  within  1  year  in  the  State,  and  the  mother  was 
a  resident  of  the  State  for  1  year  immediately  preceding  birth.  One  State  required 
that  the  child  must  have  resided  in  the  State  for  1  year  preceding  application  or 
was  born  within  State.  Two  States  required  that  the  mother  or  custodian  must 
have  been  a  resident  for  1  year  prior  to  application.  One  State  required  that  the 
child,  parent,  or  guardian  must  have  been  a  continuous  resident  for  1  year. 
Two  States  had  no  residence  requirement  for  aid  to  dependent  children. 

In  1938,  43  old-age  assistance  plans  had  a  residence  requirement  of  5  out  of  9 
years  immediately  preceding  application  and  40  of  these  specified  that  1  year  must 
be  immediately  preceding  application.  Four  plans  required  5  out  of  10  years  im- 
mediately preceding  application,  and  1  of  these  siiecified  that  1  year  must  be  imme- 
diately preceding  application.  One  State  required  2  out  of  9  years  and  1  year 
immediately  preceding  application,  and  three  States  required  only  1  year's  resi- 
dence.   For  aid  to  the  blind,  31  plans  required  residence  of  5  out  of  9  years  and  1 


3510 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


year  immediately  preceding  application,  wUile  18  of  these  also  made  eligible  those 
persons  who  lost  sight  while  residents  of  the  State.  Three  States  required  only  5 
out  of  9  years  residence  and  1  made  eligible  those  persons  who  lost  sight  while 
residing  in  State ;  1  State,  2  out  of  9  and  1  year  immediately  preceding  application. 
Six  States  required  only  1  year's  residence,  and  1  had  no  residence  requirement. 
For  aid  to  deiiendont  children,  the  1938  distribution  remained  the  same  except  that 
86  rather  than  34,  plans  required  residence  of  1  year  preceding  application  or  was 
born  within  the  State  within  1  year  and  the  mother  was  a  resident  1  year  immedi- 
ately preceding  birth. 

In  1939,  41  States,  in  their  plans  for  old-age  assistance,  required  residence  of  5 
out  of  9  years  immediately  preceding  application ;  38  of  these  specify  that  1  year 
must  immediately  precede  application.  Four  States  required  residence  of  5  out  of 
10  years  immediately  preceding  application,  and  2  of  these  specified  that  1  year 
must  immediately  precede  application.  One  State  required  2  out  of  9  years  imme- 
diately preceding  application,  and  1  year  must  immediately  precede  application. 
Four  States  required  only  1  year,  and  1  only  6  months'  residence.  For  aid  to  the 
blind,  33  plans  required  residence  of  5  out  of  9  years  and  1  year  immediately  pre- 
ceding application,  while  19  of  these  made  eligible  those  persons  who  lost  sight 
while  residing  in  the  State.  Two  States  required  5  out  of  9  years  preceding  appli- 
cation and  1  made  eligilile  those  who  lost  sight  while  residing  in  the  State  ;  1  State, 
2  out  of  9  and  1  yea  r  immediately  preceding  application.    Five  States  required  only 

1  year,  1  only  6  months,  and  1  had  no  residence  requirement.  For  aid  to  dependent 
children,  37 "plans  required  residence  of  1  year  preceding  application  or  the  child 
must  have  been  born  within  the  State  within  1  year  and  the  mother  was  a  resident 
for  1  year  immediately  preceding  birth.  One  State  required  only  that  the  child 
must  have  resided  in  the  State  for  1  year  preceding  application  or  was  born  within 
the  State.  Two  States  specified  that  the  child  must  have  resided  in  the  State  for  1 
year  or  in  the  custody  of  a  person  who  had  lived  in  the  State  for  1  year  next  pre- 
ceding application.     Two  States  had  no  residence  requirement. 

In  1940,  for  old-age  assistance  40  States  required  residence  of  5  out  of  9  years 
immediately  preceding  application,  38  of  these  specified  that  1  year  must  immedi- 
ately precede  application.  Three  States  required  5  out  of  10  years,  and  1  of  these 
specified  that  1  year  must  immediately  precede  application.     One  State  required 

2  out  of  9  years  immediately  preceding  application  with  1  year  immediately  pre- 
ceding application :  6  required  1  year,  and  1  required  6  months.  For  aid  to  the 
blind,  33  States  required  5  out  of  9  years  immediately  preceding  application  and 
1  year  immediately  preceding  application  and  19  of  these  also  granted  assistance 
to  those  who  lost  sight  while  they  were  residents  of  the  State.  Two  States 
required  5  out  of  9  years  immediately  preceding  application  and  one  of  these  gave 
assistance  to  those  who  lost  sight  while  they  were  residents  of  the  State.  One 
jurisdiction  required  5  out  of  9  years  immediately  preceding  applications.  One 
plan  required  residence  of  2  out  of  9  years  immediately  preceding  application,  and 
1  year  immediately  preceding  application.  Six  required  1  year,  1  required  6 
months,  and  1  had  no  residence  requirement.  For  aid  to  dependent  children, 
there  was  no  change  from  1939. 

SUMMARY   OF   TEENDS 

The  Social  Security  Act  includes  no  requirement  with  regard  to  residence  and 
prohibits  any  requirement  which  excludes  any  resident  of  the  State  who  has 
resided  therein  5  years  during  the  9  years  immediately  preceding  the  application 
for  old-age  assistance  or  aid  to  the  blind,  and  has  resided  therein  continuously 
for  1  year  preceding  the  application ;  also  any  requirement  which  imposes  as  a 
condition  of  eligibility  for  aid  to  dependent  children  a  residence  requirement  which 
denies  aid  with  respect  to  any  child  residing  in  the  State:  (1)  Who  has  resided 
in  the  State  for  1  year  immediately  preceding  application  for  such  aid,  or  (2) 
who  was  born  within  the  State  within  1  year  immediately  preceding  the  applica- 
tion, if  its  mother  has  resided  in  the  State  for  1  year  immediately  preceding  the 
birth.  There  were  only  about  11  changes  in  the  residence  provisions  for  old-age 
assistance  from  1936  to  1940,  of  which  about  6  liberalized  the  previous  provision. 
The  minimum  provision  for  any  State  is  6  months,  and  that  was  changed  from  a 
provision  of  5  out  of  9  years  preceding  application  and  1  year  immediately  pre- 
ceding. In  1936  only  about  21  percent  of  the  approved  plans  had  residence  pro- 
visions more  liberal  than  the  maximum  permitted  under  the  Social  Security  .A.ct, 
while  in  1940  about  25  percent  had  provisions  more  liberal  than  the  permitted 
maximum.  For  aid  to  the  blind,  there  were  about  13  changes,  and  about  9  of 
these  made  the  previous  provision  less  restrictive.  Only  1  State  had  no  residence 
provision  for  aid  to  the  blind  and  1  State  reduced  its  provision  to  6  months.     In 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3511 

1936  about  55  percent  of  the  approved  aid  to  the  blind  plans  had  a  residence 
provision  more  liberal  than  the  maximum  permitted  under  the  Social  Security  Act, 
while  in  1940  about  67  percent  had  a  more  liberal  provision.  For  aid  to  dependent 
children,  only  about  3  changes  occurred  between  1936  and  1940,  and  2  of  these 
made  the  residence  requirement  more  restrictive  than  the  previous  one.  Only 
two  plans  had  no  residence  provision. 

OUT-OF-STATE   PAYMENTS 

About  35  States,  affecting  about  34  old-age  assistance  plans,  21  aid  to  the  blind 
plans,  and  about  20  aid  to  dependent  children  plans,  permit  payments  to  recipients 
who  temporarily  leave  the  State.  The  period  allowed  ranges  from  1  month  to 
1  year.  About  7  States  allow  1  month,  4  allow  1  year.  The  most  frequent  period 
is  about  3  months.  Several  States  do  not  state  a  specific  period,  and  many  States 
allow  absence  for  longer  periods,  with  special  permission  from  the  State  agency. 


SUPPLEMENT    III    TO    STATEMENT    BY    JANE    M.    HOEY,    DIRECTOR, 
BUREAU  OF  PUBLIC  ASSISTANCE,  SOCIAL  SECURITY  BOARD 

Provision  for  the  Cake  of  Transients  by  State  and  Local  General  Re3.ip:f 

Agencies 

As  a  result  of  the  reallocation  of  responsibilities  for  providing  assistance  or 
employment  to  those  in  need  which  occurred  when  the  Federal  works  program 
and  social-security  program  were  inaugurated  in  1935  and  1936,  the  States  and 
their  local  subdivisions  were  left  with  the  responsibility  of  providing  relief 
to  the  groups  not  otherwise  cared  for.  One  of  these  is  the  transient  group. 
From  May  1933  through  December  1935,  special  provision  was  made  through 
the  Federal  Emergency  Relief  Administration  for  the  care  of  transients.  Be- 
ginning in  1930,  however,  the  State  and  local  governments  fell  heir  not  only 
to  the  burden  of  providing  general  relief  but  also  to  the  problem  of  making 
some  provision  for  the  care  of  transients. 

The  provision  made  by  State  and  local  governments,  from  general  relief  funds, 
for  the  care  of  transients  is  indicated  in  table  1,  which  shows  the  nmnber  of 
States  providing  transient  care  in  some  form.  It  is  possible  that  in  some  locali- 
ties, special  public  funds  for  the  care  of  transients  are  available,  but  the  amounts 
expended  probably  are  not  large ;  the  cost  of  such  additional  care  as  may  be 
provided  is  usually  met  from  private  funds.  The  data  in  table  1  were  obtained 
in  a  study  of  the  organization  for  the  administration  of  general  relief  in  the 
States,  conducted  by  the  Division  of  Public  Assistance  Re.search  of  the  Social 
Security  Board. 

The  fact  that  in  40  of  the  48  States  some  provision  is  made  for  transient 
care  would  seem  to  indicate  a  fairly  widespread  acceptance  of  the  responsibility 
for  providing  this  type  of  care.  When  it  is  noted,  however,  that  in  more  than 
half  the  States,  not  all  local  administrative  agencies  provide  care,  and  that  in 
more  than  one-fourth  the  States,  only  overnight  care  is  provided,  the  possibility 
of  ready  access  to  this  type  of  care  becomes  somewhat  more  remote.  In  addi- 
tion to  these  shortcomings,  it  should  be  pointed  out  that  (1)  in  at  least  3 
States,  most  of  the  overnight  care  is  provided  in  jails,  and  (2)  in  7  States, 
care  is  provided  only  in  emergencies  or  pending  determination  of  legal  settle- 
ment. 

In  8  States,  transients  receive  the  same  type  of  care  as  residents.  In  4  States, 
this  policy  is  State-wide :  in  4  it  is  not.  It  should  not  be  inferred,  however,  that 
in  these  States,  all  transients  are  giverh  resident  care ;  the  classification  simply 
means  that  those  transients  which  receive  any  care  at  all,  receive  resident  care. 

In  addition  to  the  provision  of  resident  and  overnight  care,  as  indicated  in 
table  1,  18  States  provide  some  shelter  care  for  transients  and/or  local  home- 
less in  about  85  shelters.  In  at  least  2  other  States,  Salvation  Army  shelters 
are  subsidize<l  from  public  general  relief  funds  and  used  for  the  care  of 
transients. 

Table  2  shows  that  in  37  States,  some  type  of  transportation  is  allowed 
from  public  general  relief  funds,  but  the  extent  of  the  practice  varies  within 
States.  In  only  22  of  the  37  States  do  all  local  administrative  agencies  provide 
transportation.  Thirty-two  States  provide  transportation  to  the  transient's 
legal  residence,  whereas  in  5  States,  the  purpose  of  the  allowance  for  trans- 
portation is  merely  to  remove  the  transient  from  the  area  of  jurisdiction  of 
the  administrative  agency. 


3512 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Table  1. — Number  of  States  providing  care  of  transients  from  general  relief 
funds  iy  type  of  care  and  extent  of  practice  in  January  19JfO 


Total 

Number   of  States 
in  which  specified 
type  of  transient 
care   is   provided 
by- 

All  local 
adminis- 
trative 
agencies 

Some 
local 
adminis- 
trative 
agencies 

Total                                                                                -  

40 

18 

22 

8 
20 

4 
4 
10 

4 

8 

10 

Table  2. — Number  of  States  providing  transportation  for  transients  from  general 
relief  funds  in  January  1940 


Total 

Number  of   States 
in   which    trans- 
portation of  tran- 
sients is  provided 
by- 

All  local 
adminis- 
trative 
agencies 

Some 
local 
adminis- 
trative 
agencies 

Total                                                                            

137 

22 

115 

132 
5 

19 
3 

J  13 

Beyond  jurisdiction  of  local  agency                                                  -  - 

2 

'  In  1  State,  only  transportation  to  legal  residence  within  the  State  is  allowed. 

STATEMENT  OF  JACK  TATE,  GENERAL  COUNSEL,  FEDERAL  SECURITY 

AGENCY 

Settlement,  Residence,  and  the  Power  of  a  State  to  Ex(7lude  or  Remove 

NON  SETTLED  NEEDY  PEBSONS 

November  28,  1940. 

Settlement,  a  creature  of  statute,  differs  from  residence  chiefly  in  the  additional 
condition  that  no  public  relief  may  be  received  during  the  period  counted  on. 
What  constitutes  relief  is  a  matter  of  policy  differing  from  State  to  State.  A 
domiciliary  of  a  State,  if  a  citizen  of  the  United  States,  would  be  a  citizen  of 
the  State,  whereas  citizenship  and  residence  are  not  convertible  terms.  A  man 
may  have  several  residences  but  only  one  domicile.  Residence  differs  from 
domicile  in  that  its  requirement  of  intention  to  remain  is  less  stringent.  Under 
titles  I,  IV,  and  X  of  the  Social  Security  Act,  the  Board  has  interpreted  residence 
as  meaning  physical  presence  without  any  present  intention  of  removing.  It  is 
held  that  short  breaks  in  physical  presence,  so  long  as  there  is  no  intention 
of  abandoning  residence,  will  neither  prevent  satisfaction  of  the  residence  require- 
ment nor  destroy  a  residence  previously  gained.  In  the  interests  of  a  Nation- 
wide standard  definition  and  to  effectuate  the  policy  of  the  act,  technical 
doctrines  of  settlement  law,  such  as  settlement  by  derivation,  and  conditions 
thereon,  such  as  nonsupport  by  the  public  authorities,  have  been  found  inapplica- 
ble to  residence  under  the  Social  Security  Act  titles,  and  are  dealt  with  as 
proscribed  conditions. 

The  memorandum  concludes  with  a  brief  discussion  of  the  power  of  the  States 
to  remove  or  exclude  nonsettled  needy  persons  in  the  light  of  the  due  process 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3513 

and  privileges  and  immunities  clauses  of  the  fourteenth  amendment,  the  com- 
merce clause,  and  the  privileges  and  immunities  clause  of  Article  IV.  section  2. 
A  balance  must  be  struck  between  the  national  interest  in  freedom  of  locomotion 
and  the  traditional  power  of  the  States  to  regulate  the  admission  of  paupers 
when  regulation  is  a  matter  of  vital  necessity. 

Unlike  "residence"  which  has  well-accepted  connotations,  "settlement"  is 
a  term  which  has  been  defined  by  statute.  It  is  to  the  State  laws  that  we  must 
look  for  matters  relating  to  settlement  requirements,  including  the  determina- 
tion of  the  periotls  to  be  included  and  excluded  in  computing  the  residence  neces- 
sary to  establish  settlement  {City  of  Camhridge  v.  Town  of  West  Springfield, 
20  N.  E.  (2d)  432  (Mass.  1939)  ;  Wrohlcski  v.  Toirn  of  Swan  River,  204  Minn. 
264,  283  N.  W.  399).  "Today,  a  period  of  self-supporting  residence,  varying 
from  1  to  5  years,  is  required  in  nearly  all  States  for  the  acquisition  of  'settle- 
ment'— i.  e.,  eligibility  for  relief"  (Interstate  Migration  and  Personal  Liberty, 
40  Columbia  Law  Review,  1032,  1033).  In  the  American  Public  Welfare  Asso- 
ciation Compilation  of  the  Settlement  Laws  of  All  States  in  the  United  States 
(1939)  may  be  found  the  requirements,  including  such  factors  as  the  length  of 
residence  necessary  to  acquire  settlement,  period  of  absence  to  lose  settlement, 
the  enforcement  of  relief  and  removal  of  nonresidents,  and  regulations  against 
the  transportation  of  unsettled  poor.  The  survey  reveals  that  the  1939  legisla- 
tures of  Colorado,  Illinois,  Indiana,  Kansas,  and  Minnesota,  tightened  State 
requirements  for  settlement.  Instead  of  1  year,  Colorado,  Illinois,  and  Indiana 
now  make  3  years'  residence  necessary  before  relief  will  be  given.  Minnesota 
increased  the  time  from  1  year  to  2.  Kansas  raised  the  requirement  from  1  to  5 
years. 

Nonsupport,  of  course,  is  an  important  element  in  most  State  laws.  The  books 
are  replete  with  opinions  devoted  to  the  consideration  of  what  types  of  assistance 
will  bar  the  acquisition  of  a  settlement.  Thus,  in  Mihvaukee  County  v.  Oconto 
County  (294  N.  W.  11  (Wis.  1940))  a  distinction  was  taken  between  hospitaliza- 
tion to  protect  the  public  from  the  spread  of  virulent  and  contagious  disease 
and  ordinary  medical  care  given  poor  persons.  It  is  also  intimated  that  once 
a  pauper's  status  is  fastened  upon  an  individual,  a  continuance  will  be  presumed 
when  aid  is  received  from  private  charities. 

Generally  the  pauper  laws  provide  that  a  settlement  may  not  be  gained 
during  the  period  that  relief  is  extended  to  the  person,  his  wife,  or  minor  child. 
It  has  been  held  that  relief  is  received  when  bills  for  services  are  paid,  not  when 
the  services  are  rendered.  (In  re  Youngquist,  203  Minn.  530,  282  N.  W.  732). 
Much  hinges  on  the  language  of  the  settlement  law  on  whether  a  particular  type 
of  assistance  will  be  held  to  be  relief.  In  Pennsylvania,  unemployment  relief  is 
not  suflScient  to  prevent  acquisition  of  a  settlement  (In  re  Commitment  of 
Dennis,  135  Pa.  Super.  237,  5  Atl.  (2d)  406).  It  is  likewise  held  that  the  receipt 
of  mother's  aid  is  no  bar  to  gaining  a  settlement  (In  re  Youngquist,  203  Minn. 
530,  282  N.  W.  732 ;  Town  of  St.  Jolmsbury  v.  Toivn  of  Lyndon,  107  Vt.  404,  180 
Atl.  892 ;  In  re  Skog,  186  Minn.  349,  243  N.  W.  384 ;  Milwaukee  County  v.  Waukesha 
County,  Dane  County  Circuit  Court,  April  23,  1940).  In  the  Skog  case  the  court 
held  that  it  did  not  matter  that  the  funds  were  obtained  by  taxes  nominally  levied 
for  poor  relief.  However,  the  contrary  has  been  held  in  In  re  Barnes  (119  Pa. 
Super.  537,  180  Atl.  718).  In  Treasurer  v.  Toimi  of  Dedham  (15  N.  E.  (2d) 
252  (Mass.) )  it  was  held  that  the  father  of  a  minor  daughter  could  not  acquire  a 
new  settlement  during  the  period  the  daughter's  board  as  an  inmate  of  the  Massa- 
chusetts Hospital  School  was  paid  by  the  town  of  former  legal  settlement,  and 
so  the  daughter  did  not  obtain  a  derivative  settlement  through  the  father.  In 
Destitute  Home  v.  Fayette  County  Almshouse  (72  Pa.  Super.  491  (1919))  the 
court  held  that  one  receiving  aid  as  a  pauper  could  not  acquire  a  settlement  in 
any  other  district  so  long  as  that  relationship  existed,  although  a  new  statute 
provided  that  a  legal  settlement  could  be  acquired  by  coming  bona  fide  to  inhabit 
and  continuing  to  reside  there.  One  receiving  assistance  from  another  district 
could  not  be  deemed  a  bona  fido  resident  because  by  surreptitious  assistance  one 
poor  district  could  fasten  the  burden  on  a  neighboring  district.  The  dissent 
argued  that  the  statute  did  not  say  either  in  terms  or  in  spirit  that  to  change 
a  settlement  a  man  must  give  up  his  old  one  and  abjure  the  necessities  of  exist- 
ence during  the  period  before  establishing  the  new  settlement. 

If  the  statute  refers  only  to  relief  from  the  State  or  its  subdivisions.  Work 
Projects  Administration  is  not  considered  relief  (Wroblcski  v.  Swan  River.  204 
Minn.  264,  283  N.  W.  399).  When  it  specifies  relief  from  the  Federal  Government, 
Work  Projects  Administration  will  preclude  the  gaining  of  a  new  settlement  (In 
re  Matruski,  169  Misc.  316,  8  N.  Y.  Supp.  (2d)  471;  In  re  Youngs,  172  Mi.sc.  155, 


3514  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

14  N.  Y.  Supp.  (2d)  800;  City  of  Minneapolis  v.  County  of  Beltrami,  206  Minn. 
371  288  N.  W.  706;  27  Wis.  A.  G.  177).  See  also  Dibner  v.  Cousminer  (157  Misc. 
229,  283  N.  Y.  Sup.  369;  cf.  Ward  County  v.  Ankenhauer,  65  N.  D.  220,  257  N.  W. 
474).  The  attorney  general  of  New  York  (December  12,  1935),  the  solicitor  gen- 
eral of  New  York  (September  21,  1936),  and  the  attorneys  general  of  Illimns 
(Opin.  III.  Atty.  Gen.  19.37,  p.  251)  and  Indiana  (Indiana  UnofC.  Op.  Atty.  Gen. 
June  6,  1938)  were  of  the  opinion  that  Work  Projects  Administration  is  self-suffi- 
cient employment  and  not  relief  in  the  sense  of  their  respective  welfare  laws. 

Under  the  statute  in  Connecticut  it  has  been  held  that  one  may  gain  a  settle- 
ment while  being  supported  by  the  place  of  former  settlement  {Town  of  Plain- 
villc  V.  Town  of  Southington,  80  Conn.  659,  69  Atl.  1049).  The  court  reserved 
the  question  of  what  would  be  done  if  assistance  were  provided  by  the  first  town 
for  the  purpose  of  unloading  the  needy  person  on  another  town. 

With  respect  to  the  policy  of  the  settlement  laws,  Bentham  said  long  ago 
(Truth  against  Ashurst,  p.  234)  : 

"There  is  no  employment  for  me  in  my  own  Parish ;  there  is  abundance  in  the 
next.  Yet  if  I  offer  to  go  there,  I  am  driven  away.  Why?  Because  I  might 
become  unable  to  work  one  of  these  days,  and  so  I  must  not  work  while  I  am  able. 
I  am  thrown  upon  one  Parish  now  for  fear  I  should  fall  upon  another  40  or  50 
years  hence.    At  this  rate  how  is  work  ever  to  get  done?" 

On  a  less  dejected  note  is  the  comment  of  W.  Wallace  Weaver  in  his  review  of 
Webb  and  Brown,  Migrant  Families,  appearing  in  the  Annals,  January  1940, 
p.  251 : 

"The  transient  bureaus  have  been  objects  of  calumny  because  they  have  facili- 
tated the  relocation  of  families  rather  than  forcing  them  back  onto  the  com- 
munities from  which  they  had  escaped.  A  hodge-podge  of  State  and  local  'settle- 
ment laws,'  relics  of  medieval  provincialism,  penalize  honest  migrants  and  leave 
'parasites'  substantially  unhindered." 

An  account  of  remedies  proposed  before  the  acuteness  of  the  problem  of 
migrants  was  intensified  by  mechanization,  low  cotton  prices,  depression,  and 
drought  is  found  in  Donnell.  Settlement  Law  and  Interstate  Relationships, 
4  Social  Service  Review  427,  450. 

Of  the  plight  of  nonsettled  persons  shunted  back  and  forth  between  North 
Dakota  and  South  Dakota,  the  North  Dakota  Supreme  Court,  in  Adams  County 
V.  BiDleigh  County  (291  N.  W.  281),  observed : 

"It  is  difficult  for  the  writer  of  this  opinion  to  pass  calmly  and  dispassionately 
upon  the  facts  in  this  case  and  the  law  governing  the  same.  One  would  fain 
suppress  much  of  the  evidence,  but  necessary  facts  must  be  set  forth.  To  the 
credit  of  the  Government  of  this  country  and  the  general  attitude  of  our  people 
toward  the  poor  and  unfortunate,  it  may  well  be  said  few  records  show  any  such 
callousness  toward  human  beings  as  this  controversy  between  South  Dakota 
and  North  Dakota  discloses.  The  case  is  an  illustration  of  the  extent  to  which 
'man's  inhumanity  to  man'  may  be  carried.  Human  beings  are  shifted  around 
like  so  much  cargo.  Somewhere  and  somehow  the  wellsprings  of  humanity  and 
brotherhood  appear  to  be  dried  up." 

The  jurisdictions  can  be  arrayed  in  two  camps,  those  which  say  that  settlement 
is  the  same  as  residence  and  those  which  say  that  they  differ.  The  Seidel  case 
(204  Minn.  3.^)7.  283,  N.  W.  742)  demonstrates  that  a  court  mny  be  liberal  in  its 
interpretation  of  the  type  of  presence  const^ituting  a  settlement  and  illiberal  when 
it  comes  to  deciding  what  constitutes  a  residence  within  the  public  assistance  laws. 

Although  the  Supreme  Court  of  Minnesota,  in  Toirn  of  Sniileii  v.  Village  of  St. 
Hilnire  (183  Minn.  533,  237  N.  W.  416),  held  that  the  pauper  law  would  be  morv^ 
workable  if  the  word  "reside"  were  construed  to  relate  to  a  temporary  living, 
where  a  man  exists,  not  a  technical  legal  residence,  that  court  held  in  the  Seidel 
case  that  "residence,"  as  used  in  the  old-age  assistance  law,  meant  physical 
presence  coupled  with  an  intention  to  make  a  home  there.  The  court  reasoned 
that  the  poor-relief  law  was  nn  empraency  ni'^asuro  pnd  H\9  old-ase  assistance  law 
a  reward  for  past  service  and  good  citizenship.  In  England  residence  in  relation 
to  the  law  of  pauper  settlement  also  requires  that  it  be  a  fixed  place  of  abode.  A 
short  absence  does  not  operate  as  a  break  in  the  residence  (Farnham  Union  v. 
Cambridge  Union  (1929),  K.  B.  307).  (See  also  J.  E.  Graham,  Can  a  Poor  Law 
Settlement  Change  During  Chargeability?  23  Jurid.  Review  281.)  in  New  Eng- 
land settlement  is  nracticalb-  equivalent  to  residence  (Tnhnhitnnts  of  Tovn  of 
Goiildshoro  v.  Itilwhitants  of  Tonm  of  Sullivan  (Maine),  170  Atl.  900;  Inhahitants 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3515 

of  Whatley  v.  Inhabitants  of  HatficU,  196  Mass.  393,  82  N.  E.  48  ;  Town  of  Madison 
V.  Town  of  Guilford,  85  Conn.  55,  81  Atl.  1046) .  Even  for  settlement,  a  short 
break  does  not  destroy  a  settlement  {Iiihdhitaiits  of  Moscow  v.  Solon,  136  Maine 
220,  7  Atl.  (2d)  729).  "  In  the  Gouldshoro  case  the  court  said  that  for  a  settlement 
to  exist  there  must  be  a  combination  of  physical  presence  with  the  intention  to 
remain.  The  intention  must  be,  not  to  make  the  place  a  home  temporarily,  but  to 
make  it  a  real  home.  At  the  same  time,  it  is  not  necessary  to  have  a  particular 
home  to  which  one  may  return  as  a  matter  of  right  (InhaUtants  of  Warren  v. 
Inhabitants  of  Thomaston.  43  Maine  406;  Inhabitants  of  Madison  v.  Fairfidd, 
132  Maine  182,  168  Atl.  782).  But  the  Maine  court  sometimes  distinguishes  be- 
tween residence  and  legal  settlement.  In  Phillips  v.  Kingsfield  (19  Maine  375), 
the  court  held  that  legal  settlement,  unlike  residence,  cannot  be  changed  without 
acquiring  a  new  one.  In  another  Maine  case,  Inhabitants  of  Warren  v.  Inhabit- 
ants of  Thomaston  (43  Maine  406),  the  court  said,  at  page  418: 

"In  our  pauper  law  the  terms  'residence,  dwellirg  place,  home'  have  a  different 
meaning  from  the  word  'settlement.'  The  place  of  one's  settlement  is  a  place 
where  such  a  person  has  a  legal  right  to  support  as  a  pauper.  It  may  be  in  a 
place  other  than  the  one  where  such  pauper  has  his  dwelling  place,  home,  or 
residence.  Thus  a  person  may  have  a  settlement  in  a  place  where  he  has  not  had 
a  residence,  as  by  derivation.  So,  too,  a  person  may  have  a  residence  or  home 
different  from  their  settlement." 

In  Minnesota  a  settlement  is  not  lost  by  removal  therefrom.  It  is  lost  when 
a  new  one  is  acquired  elsewhere  or  when  there  is  absence  from  the  State  (In  re 
Ventcichcr,  202  Minn.  331,  278  N.  W.  581 ;  Petersburg  Township  v.  City  of  Jackson, 
186  Minn.  509,  243  N.  W.  695).  In  Cittj  of  Detroit  Lakes  v.  Village  of  Utchfiehl 
(200  Minn.  349,  274  N.  W.  236),  under  a  statute  providing  that  every  person  who 
has  resided  1  year  continuously  in  any  county  should  be  deemed  to  have  a  settle- 
ment therein,  the  court  held  that  the  fact  of  remaining  or  living  at  a  place,  regard- 
less of  intention  to  make  it  one's  domicile,  is  what  counts  in  determining  a  pauper 
settlement.  Two  periods  of  less  than  a  year  could  not  be  tacked  together  to  make 
up  the  year,  but  a  man  within  the  State  more  than  a  year  was  chargeable  to  the 
county  where  he  spent  the  longest  period  next  preceding  his  application  for  aid. 

In  North  Dakota  a  settlement  within  a  county  may  be  acquired  by  1  year's 
residence  therein.  A  man  within  the  State  for  more  than  a  year  had  a  settlement 
in  the  county  where  his  stay  was  longest.  Once  acquired,  a  settlement  continued 
until  a  new  one  was  acquired  or  until  there  was  a  voluntary  absence  for  more 
than  a  year.  A  settlement  acquired  within  a  county  by  a  year's  presence,  unlike 
a  settlement  otherwise  obtained,  might  be  lost  by  voluntary  absence  from  the 
county  for  more  than  a  year  or  by  acquiring  a  new  residence  in  another  comity 
by  residing  there  1  year  (City  of  Enderlm  v.  Pontiac  Township,  62  N.  D.  105, 
242  N.  W.  117).  Residence  was  said  to  differ  from  domicile  in  being  actual,  n;;! 
legal. 

A  requirement  of  nonsupport  before  residence  within  the  meaning  of  the  aged, 
blind,  and  children's  titles  could  be  gained  would  be  violative  of  the  basic  purposes 
of  the  Social  Seciirity  Act  and  the  variety  of  conditions  attached  to  settlement 
would  be  incompatible  with  the  requisite  uniformity  for  a  Nation-wide  scheme. 
Particularly  with  respect  to  the  children's  program  would  be  a  carry-over  of  the 
doctrine  of  settlement  by  derivation  from  the  father's  last  settlement  have  been 
disruptive. 

The  undesirability  of  construing  residence  and  settlement  as  convertible  terms 
is  nowhere  better  illustrated  than  in  Toivn  of  Bethlehem  v.  Toivn  of  Foxbury 
(20  Conn.  298).  There  it  was  held  that  an  illegitimate  born  in  New  York  in  1811 
of  a  woman  having  a  settlement,  who  was  brought  into  Connecticut  in  1814,  where 
his  mother  continued  to  live  without  ever  having  lost  her  settlement,  although 
with  occasional  residences  in  New  York  and  Massachusetts,  had  a  settlement  Ity 
birth  in  New  York  and  did  not  take  the  settlement  of  his  mother  in  Connecticut. 
In  1847  the  question  of  the  settlement  of  the  illegitimate's  legitimate  children 
arose.  The  principles  applied  were  (1)  an  illegitimate  does  not  take  the  settle- 
ment of  its  mother,  but  is  settled  where  born,  by  the  laws  of  New  York ;  (2)  hav- 
ing a  settlement  in  New  York,  he  could  not  at  the  same  time  have  one  in  Connect- 
icut, although  in  Connecticut  an  illegitimate  does  not  take  a  settlement  by  birth. 
If  New  York  law  had  not  given  the  child  a  settlement,  he  would  have  taken  a  set- 
tlement in  Connecticut.  "Had  he  lived  with  his  mother  in  Connecticut,  he  would 
have  taken  a  new  settlement,  had  she  acquired  one.     But  she  acquired  none ;  and 


3516 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


no  case  can  be  found  which  has  gone  beyond  the  acquisition  of  a  new  settlement 
by  the  mother."  So  the  grandchildren,  36  years  later,  take  the  settlement  of  their 
father  acquired  in  1811.  The  dissent  thought  that  the  law  of  New  York  gave 
the  illegitimate  the  settlement  of  its  mother ;  that  when  the  mother  returned,  the 
illegitimate's  settlement  should  have  followed  hers.^ 

By  reason  of  local  peculiarities  and  differences  which  would  militate  against 
Nation-wide  uniform  definition  of  the  term  "residence"  within  the  purview  of 
the  Social  Security  Act,  it  is  apparent  that  acceptance  of  the  vagaries  of  State 
nomenclature  and  of  their  understanding  would  have  led  to  endless  confusion 
and  nullification  of  the  residence  requirements  of  the  Federal  act.  Accordingly, 
it  has  been  found  necessary  to  provide  a  uniform  Federal  definition  of  residence 
in  the  Federal  act  not  dependent  on  local  variations.  Cf.  Lyeth  v.  Hoey  (305  U.  S. 
188),  where  the  Supreme  Court  held  that  although  in  Massachusetts  when  a  will 
is  admitted  to  probate  under  a  compromise  agreement,  the  State  succession  tax 
is  applied  to  the  property  that  passes  by  the  terms  of  the  will  as  written,  and 
not  as  changed  by  any  agreement  for  compromise,  Congress  in  exempting  from 
the  Federal  income  tax  the  value  of  property  acquired  by  gift,  bequest,  devise, 
or  inheritance  intended  to  provide  a  uniform  rule  not  dependent  on  divergent 
State  views  whether  assets  received  by  an  heir  from  his  ancestors'  estate  through 
compromise  was  to  be  regarded  as  having  its  origin  in  contract  or  as  coming 
to  the  heir  as  such. 

We  must  therefore  look  to  residence  as  it  has  been  interpreted,  noting  wherein 
it  differs  from  both  settlement  and  domicile.  "*  *  *  a  person  may  have  two 
places  of  'residence,'  as  in  the  city  and  country,  but  only  one  'domicile'  *  *  *. 
'Residence'  simply  requires  bodily  presence  as  an  inhabitant  in  a  given  place, 
while  'domicile'  requires  bodily  presence  in  that  place,  and  also  an  intention  to 
make  it  one's  domicile"  {Matter  of  Newcomh's  Estate,  192  N.  T.  238,  250;  84  N.  E. 
950,  954).  Residence  is  more  than  mere  physical  presence  in  a  place.  It  de- 
pends on  purpose  and  intention  and  upon  what  contingencies  one  expects  to 
leave.  In  general,  residence  implies  presence  at  some  place  of  abode  with  no 
present  intention  of  definite  and  early  removal,  and  with  a  purpose  to  remain 
for  an  undetermined  period,  not  infrequently  but  not  necessarily  combined  with 
a  design  to  stay  permanently  {City  of  Cambridge  v.  Town  of  West  Springfield, 
20  N.  E.  (2d)  432,  434  (Mass.  1939)).  Citizenship  and  residence  are  not  the 
same  thing,  nor  does  one  include  the  other  {La  Tourette  v.  McMaster,  248  U.  S. 
465).  Even  with  respect  to  domicile,  an  intention  to  abandon  a  former  home  may 
coexist  with  an  indefinite  or  floating  intention  to  return  at  some  time  to  the 
abandoned  domicile  and  again  make  a  home  there  {Ooodloe  v.  Hawk,  113  F.  (2d) 
753,  755  (C.  A.  D.  C.)  ;  Beale,  Conflict  of  Latvs,  sec.  18.2  p.  145).  But  there  must 
be  a  conjunction  of  physical  presence  and  animus  manendi  in  the  new  location 
to  bring  about  a  domiciliary  change,  and  no  length  of  residence  without  the 
intention  of  remaining  will  constitute  a  domicile  {District  of  Columbia  v.  Siveeney, 
113  F.  (2d)  25  (0.  A.  D.  0.),  cert.  den.  310  U.  S.  631;  Ex  parte  Bullen  (Ala.), 
181  So.  498 ;  Felker  v.  Henderson,  78  N.  H.  509,  102  Atl.  623,  624 ;  Story,  Conflict  of 
Laws  (7th  ed.),  sec.  46). 

The  residence  requirements  for  old-age  assistance  are  not  uniform. 

Thirty-eight  States  provide  for  a  residence  requirement  of  5  out  of  the  9  years 
preceding  application,  the  last  year  of  which  must  immediately  precede  appli- 
cation.    These  States  are: 

Arizona  Louisiana  North  Dakota 

California  Maine  Ohio 

Colorado  Maryland  •  Oklahoma 

Connecticut  Massachusetts  Oregon 

Delaware  Michigan  Pennsylvania 

District  of  Columbia  Minnesota  South  Carolina 

Florida  Missouri  Tennessee 

Idaho  Montana  Texas 

Illinois  Nebraska  Utah 

Indiana  Nevada  Virginia 

Iowa  New  Jersey  Wisconsin 

Kansas  New  Mexico  Wyoming 

Kentucky  New  York 


lOn    the   settlement   of  a   child    under   16,  see   67   J.   P.   493;    70   J.    P.   387,   397;   71 
J.  P.  314. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3517 

Alaska  and  Hawaii  provide  for  a  residence  requirement  of  5  out  of  the  9 
years  preceding  application  but  do  not  specify  that  1  year  must  immediately 
precede  application. 

Washington  provides  for  a  residence  requirement  of  5  out  of  10  years  preced- 
ing application,  1  year  of  which  must  immediately  precede  application.  Vermont 
requires  5  out  of  10  years  residence  but  does  not  specify  that  1  year  must  imme- 
diately precede  application. 

Six  States — Alabama,  Arkansas,  Georgia,  Mississippi,  Rhode  Island,  and  West 
Virginia — have  a  residence  requirement  of  1  year.  New  Hampshire  requires 
only  6  months'  residence. 

North  Carolina  provides  for  a  residence  requirement  of  2  out  of  5  years  and  1 
year  immediately  preceding  application;  however,  since  the  question  was  raised 
by  the  Social  Security  Board  as  to  whether  this  provision  was  in  agreement  with 
the  provisions  of  the  Social  Security  Act,  the  State  Board  of  Charity  and  Public 
Welfare,  with  the  approval  of  the  State  attorney  general  and  the  Governor, 
passed  a  resolution  making  applicants  eligible  for  old-age  assistance  who  had 
resided  in  the  State  for  5  out  of  the  9  years  preceding  application  and  1  year 
immediately  preceding  application. 

South  Dakota  provides  for  a  residence  requirement  of  2  out  of  the  9  years 
preceding  application  and  1  year  immediately  preceding  application. 

Iowa  has  an  alternative  that  an  applicant  may  have  a  domicile  in  the  State 
and  has  had  such  domicile  continuously  for  at  least  9  years  immediately  pre- 
ceding date  of  application,  but  such  domicile  shall  not  be  considered  continuous 
if  interrupted  by  periods  of  absence  totaling  more  than  4  years. 

In  Minnesota,  residents  who  have  not  resided  in  the  State  for  5  of  the  last  9 
years  but  who  have  been  residents  for  2  or  more  years  immediately  preceding 
application  may  take  credit  on  a  percentage  basis  for  residence  in  the  State  prior 
to  the  9-year  period  immediately  preceding  application. 

Nebraska  considers  an  applicant  eligible  who  has  been  at  any  time  a  resident  for 
25  consecutive  years  and  1  year  immediately  preceding  application. 

Two  elements  must  concur  in  order  to  qualify  an  individual  as  a  resident  of  a 
State  for  the  purposes  of  establishing  eligibility  for  aid  under  titles  I,  IV,  and  X, 
of  the  Social  Security  Act  as  amended.  These  elements  are  (1)  physical  habita- 
tion within  the  State  and  (2)  intent  to  reside  therein.  Physical  habitation  as 
used  in  this  connection  does  not  require  unbroken  presence  in  the  State,  and  is 
consistent  with  temporary  absence.  As  long  as  it  may  be  satisfactorily  established 
that  the  absence  from  the  State  was  a  temporary  one,  and  that  the  individual 
intended  to  return  at  a  definite  time  or  after  the  happening  of  a  certain  event, 
this  absence  will  not  interrupt  his  residence.  It  follows  that  the  State  cannot 
refuse  to  pay  assistance  except  upon  the  condition  of  continued  presence  within 
the  State ;  moreover,  this  would  constitute  a  restrictive  condition  upon  the  pay- 
ment. Under  the  act  only  unrestricted  payments  may  be  matched.  The  inten- 
tion need  not  be  to  remain  in  the  State  forever,  it  being  sufficient  to  dwell  within 
the  State  with  no  intention  of  presently  removing  therefrom.  A  person  may 
acquire  residence  in  a  jurisdiction  for  public  assistance  even  though  during  part 
of  the  time  claimed  as  a  residence  he  received  public  aid  from  the  same  or  another 
jurisdiction.  It  is  necessary,  however,  that  a  person  seeking  to  establish  a  new 
residence  be  capable  of  forming  the  requisite  intent. 

In  interpreting  residence  in  connection  with  eligibility  for  public  assistance  it  is 
also  recognized  that  married  women  living  apart  from  their  husbands  may  ac- 
quire a  separate  residence  and  that  a  child  who  has  been  physically  present  within 
the  State  and  living  in  a  place  of  residence  maintained  by  one  of  the  relatives 
enumerated  in  section  406  (a)  has  satisfied  the  residence  requirement  regardless 
of  the  fiction  applied  in  other  branches  of  the  law  that  his  residence  follows  that 
of  his  father.  That  fiction  is  not  permitted  to  operate  to  the  detriment  of  the 
child. 

No  State  may  impose  any  county  residence  requirement  which  would  dis- 
qualify an  applicant  meeting  the  maximum  State  residence  requirements  permitted 
under  the  Federal  Act.  The  State  may  not  restrict  the  freedom  of  applicants  or 
recipients  to  move  about  the  State  by  threatening  a  denial  of  assistance.  County 
residence  rules  may  be  established  only  for  the  administrative  purpose  of  deciding 
which  county  shall  be  charged  for  the  assistance. 


3518 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Present-day  population  movements "  have  brought  to  the  fore  the  power  of  the 
State  of  ultimate  destination  to  control  the  movements  of  migrants  and  seasonal 
workers  either  by  exclusion  or  by  expulsion.  With  the  labor  market  in  most 
of  the  cities  glutted,  many  migrants  become  at  once  objects  of  local  or  Federal 
relief.  The  New  York  State  Department  of  Social  Welfare  estimates  that  it 
costs  $3,000,000  a  year  to  support  nonresidents.  Surprisingly,  although  there  is  a 
wealth  of  literature  on  the  power  to  exclude  and  to  expel  (see,  e.  g.,  Interstate 
Migration  and  Personal  Liberty,  40  Columbia  L.  Rev.,  1032-1049  (June  1940))  ; 
Depression  Migrants  and  the  States,  53  Harv.  L.  Rev.  1031-1042  (April  1940),  and 
F.  L.  Dunlap,  Power  of  State  to  Prevent  Entry  of  Paupers  from  other  States, 
''6  Calif  L  Review  603),  and  although  "New  York  State  officials  lemoved  4,079 
persons  from  the  State  in  1936-37  and  2,832  in  1&37-38  (40  Col.  L.  Rev.  1032,  1033) 
no  appellate  decisions  passing  on  the  question  are  available.  It  is  explained  that 
"only  a  very  few  of  these  removals  required  the  compulsion  of  a  court  order,  most 
being  accomplished  by  means  of  persuasion,  or  mere  threats  of  enforcing  thie 
law."     (Ibid.) 

In  the  one  case  which  might  have  served  to  settle  the  question,  In  re  ChirilJo 
(283  N.  Y.  417,  28  N.  E.  (2d)  895) ,  the  Court  of  Appeals  found  that  the  question  on 
direct  appeal  from  the  county  court  was  not  properly  before  it  since  in  addition  to 
the  issue  of  constitutionality  there  was  also  a  construction  question.  The  migrant 
had  lived  in  Wooster,  Ohio,  until  January  1939,  when  he  moved  to  Mamaroneck. 
Home  relief  in  Ohio  averaged  $15.99 ;  in  New  York  generally,  $36.12,  and  in  West- 
chester County  where  Mamaroneck  is  situated,  $40.18.  Judge  Finch,  in  a  dissent 
on  the  procedural  point  in  which  Judges  Rippey  and  Lewis  concurred,  answered  in 
the  negative  the  question,  "Is  it  a  privilege  or  immunity  of  a  citizen  of  the  United 
States  to  impose  upon  any  State  of  his  choice  the  burden  of  supporting  himself 
and  his  family  before  he  has  satisfied  reasonable  settlement  qualiiications,  as  in 
the  case  at  bar,  of  1  year?"  He  treated  the  issue  in  terms  of  the  State's  ability  to 
defend  itself  against  threats  to  its  security  and  solvency.  He  emphasized  that 
under  the  rules  of  the  State  Department  of  Welfare  removal  was  considered  only 
on  a  case-work  basis  having  regard  for  the  welfare  of  the  individual  and  the* 
State,  and  on  authorization  from  the  locality  of  settlement. 

Judge  Finch  stated : 

"Section  71  does  not  interfere  with  the  right  of  a  citizen  of  one  State  to 
pass  through  or  reside  in  any  other  State.  Only  if  on  coming  from  another 
State  he  applies  for  relief  at  public  expense,  to  which  he  has  no  constitutional 
right,  he  is  bound  to  accept  the  relief  cum  overe,  or  with  the  limitations  of  the 
reasonable  provisions  of  the  public- welfare  law  of  New  York  State.  If  it  be 
for  his  welfare  and  for  the  welfare  of  the  State,  he  then  sub.K>crs  himself  to  the 
possibility  of  being  compelled  to  return  to  the  State  wherein  he  has  a  legal 
settlement." 

Judge  Finch  repelled  challenges  on  the  score  of  the  fourteenth  amendment 
and  the  commerce  and  privileges  and  immunities  clauses  by  pointing  out  the 
antecedents  of  section  71  of  the  welfare  law  went  back  to  1350;  that  the  burden 
on  commerce  was  slight  and  necessary  to  protect  the  people  from  the  spread 
of  crime  and  disease  and  dissipation  of  the  financial  resources  and  that  classi- 
f;qation  was  reasonable. 

Chirillo  has  obtained  an  order  from  the  United  States  District  Court  for  the 
Southern  District  of  New  York  directing  the  Governor  and  others  to  show 
cause  on  December  5  why  they  should  not  be  restrained  from  deporting  the 
family. 

The  Columbia  Law  Review  note  concludes  its  analysis  as  follows : 

"Constitutional  objections  to  State  removal  and  extlusion  laws  may  be  found 
in  the  two  privileges  and  immunities  clauses ;  the  stronger  grounds  for  attack, 
however,  lie  in  the  commerce  and  due  process  clauses.  The  commerce  clause 
presents  the  large  political  question  of  the  extent  to  which  the  States  in 
relio^'ing  themselves  of  the  severe  burdens  resulting  from  Federal  inaction  may 
trespass  on  a  national  interest.     The  tendency  of  exclusion  and  expulsion  laws 


=  It  has  been  estimated  that  241,930  individuals  entered  California  between  July  1935, 
and  March  1938.  Taylor  and  Rowell,  Refugee  Labor  Migration  to  California,  Monthly 
Labor  Review,  August  1938,  p.  240. 

^  In  California,  an  order  to  return  a  family  of  S  who  arrived  in  Kings  County  from 
ISIissouri  on  October  19.  1939,  was  obtained  on  November  4,  1939,  New  York  Times, 
November  5,  1939.     The  family  admittedly  came  because  of  higher  relief  payments. 


i::TElLiSTATE  ZvlIGRATlON  3519 

to  isolate  States  from  tbe  national  economy  and  to  raise  an  impassible  (sic) 
network  of  barriers  to  the  free  movement  of  a  considerable  section  of  the 
population  may  well  induce  a  finding  of  invalidity.  The  issue  under  the  due 
process  clause,  involving  a  balancing  of  personal  and  State  interests,  will 
assume  a  different  complexion  depending  on  whether  or  not  the  court  recog- 
nizes in  freedom  of  movement  a  'civil  liberty'  comparable  to  those  usually 
associated  with  the  phrase." 

Madden  v.  Kentucky  (309  U.  S.  83),  the  recent  decision  of  the  Supreme  Court 
overruling  Colgate  v.  Harvey  (296  U.  S.  404),  apparently  adopts  the  dissent 
of  Mr.  Justice  Stone  in  Colgate  v.  Harvey,  page  446,  and  indicates  that  the 
Hague  case  (307  U.  S.  496)  will  be  confined  within  a  narrow  compass.  Hence 
the  right  of  locomotion  as  a  privilege  of  citizens  of  the  United  States  secured 
against  al)ridgement  (cf.  Williams  v.  Fears  (179  U.  S.  270))  may  not  )»e  opera- 
tive to  prevent  exercise  by  the  States  of  the  power  to  refuse  admittance  to 
and  deport  "paupers"  ^  however  inconsistent  with  the  national  welfare  is  a 
policy  compelling  the  retransference  of  population  from  the  areas  offering 
greater  opportunities  to  the  less  habitable  areas,  particularly  since  in  Supreme 
Court  dicta  the  power  to  exclude  in  self -protection  has  been  conceded.  Hannibal 
&  St.  Joseph  R.  Co.  v.  Husen  (95  U.  S.  465,  472)  ;  Henderson  v.  Mayor  (92  U.  S. 
259,  275)  ;  Chy  Lung  v.  Freeman  (92  U.  S.  275,  280). 

Either  it  has  been  taken  for  granted  by  many  States  that  indigent  persons 
may  be  excluded  from  the  State  by  a  border  patrol  or  "bum  blockade"  or 
impoverished  persons  have  not  had  the  means  to  appeal  to  the  courts.  As  to 
the  class  which  might  be  covered,  it  seems  clear  that  the  distinguishing  char- 
acteristic would  have  to  be  more  than  mere  poverty,  for  the  exclusion  of 
people  willing  and  able  to  work  could  hardly  be  justified  as  arising  from 
vital  necessity.  In  City  of  Bangor  v.  Sniifh  (83  Maine  422,  22  Atl.  379),  it  was 
held  that  a  railroad  could  not  be  held  liable  by  a  State  if  the  people  it  trans- 
ported into  the  State  subsequently  became  paupers.  To  impose  such  a  lia- 
bility would  be  to  burden  interstate  commerce. 

Apart  from  exclusion  or  expulsion  there  are  other  measures  which  States, 
which  feel  they  are  bearing  an  undue  proportion  of  the  expense  of  caring  for 
the  destitute  of  other  regions,  may  adopt.-  Poor  people  may  be  excluded  from 
the  State  by  means  of  exemplary  prosecutions  for  vagrancy.  This  may  be 
more  effective  than  proceedings  for  removal  since  there  are  doubts  as  to 
whether  the  jurisdiction  of  the  courts  and  administrative  oflScials  extends 
to  removal  outside  the  State.  Donnell,  Laws  Regarding  Settlement  in  Connec- 
tion with  the  Problem  of  Interstate  Relationship  Under  a  Federal  System,  4 
Social  Service  Review  427,  444;  Hilhorn  v.  Briggs  (58  N.  D.  612,  226  N  W  737)  • 
Custer  County  v.  ReicheU  (293  N.  W.  862  (S.  D.  1940))  ;  Juniata  Co.  v.  Dela- 
ware Toimship  (107  Pa.  St.  68)  ;  Limestone  v.  Chilllsqvaqne  (87  Pa.  St.  294)  ; 
Georgia  v.  Orand  Isle  (1  Vt.  464)  ;  Informal  Opinion  (No.  973,  Pa.  Atty.  Gen.', 
June  30,  1939).  But  compare:  8  Johns.  (N.  Y.)  412;  4  City  Hall  Record 
(N.  Y.)  43;  Bo^vUn  v.  Archer  (157  Ky.  540,  163  S.  W.  477). 

In  mate  v.  Lange  (148  Kans.  614,  83  P.  (2d)  652),  the  court  held  that  the 
social-welfare  act  containing  provisions  dealing  with  transient  persons  likely 
to  become  public  charges  and  having  no  legal  settlement  within  the  county 
where  they  were  found  was  intended  to  constitute  an  independent  code,  super- 
seding a  prior  statute  authorizing  removal,  and  held  that  the  earlier  statute 
was  impliedly  repealed.  The  court  disapproved  of  the  summary  procedure 
and  mentioned  the  constitutional  problem  of  laws  of  jurisdiction  as  soon  as 
the  person  deported  was  outside  the  State  under  the  superseding  section  au- 
thorizing the  State  board  to  enter  into  reciprocal  agreements  with  other  States 
in  regard  to  the  manner  of  determining  the  State  of  settlement  in  disputed 
cases. 

Perhaps  the  simplest  device  to  discourage  migration  is  the  warning  notice. 
Any  stay  in  the  community  within  1  year  after  receipt  of  the  notice  does  not 
count  toward  the  acquisition  of  a  settlement.  Even  in  relation  to  the  settlement 
law  such  notices  were  looked  upon  with  disfavor,  and  there  had  to  be  an  exact 


J-  Used  here  as  coverhig  persons  in  immediate  need  of  assistance,  not  as  a  term  of 
obloquy.  It  is  used  instead  of  "indigent"  because  the  sources  of  the  States'  supnosed 
powers  are  historically  identified  with  the  poor  or  pauper  laws  supijoseu 


3520 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


conformity  with  the  statutory  provisions.  (Emmet  Co.  v.  Dally  (216  Iowa  166, 
''48  N  W.  366).)  However,  a  warning  to  depart  given  to  one  likely  to  become  a 
public  charge  means  that  such  person  cannot  acquire  a  settlement  within  any 
county  except  by  the  completion  of  1  year  without  further  warning.  {Cass  Co.  v 
Audnion  Co.  (221  Iowa,  1037,  266  N.  W.  293).)  These  warning  notices  would  be 
ineffective  to  prevent  the  gaining  of  a  residence  under  public-assistance  laws 
because  they  have  no  statutory  basis  and  are  repugnant  to  the  Federal  Social 
Security  Act  (See  Heisterman.  Removal  of  Nonresident  State  Poor  by  State 
and  Local  Authorities  (8  Social  Service  Review,  289-301,  June  1939).) 

Recommendations  for  ameliorating  the  distress  of  the  migrants  and  for  absorb- 
ing them  into  the  life  of  the  community  are  made  in  Migratory  Labor :  A  Report 
to  the  President,  by  the  Interdepartmental  Committee  to  Coordinate  Health  and 
Welfare  Activities,  July  1940 ;  Hazel  Hendricks,  Farmers  Without  Farms,  Atlantic 
Monthly,  October  1940;  Buel  W.  Patch,  Problem  of  the  Migrant  Unemployed, 
2  Editorial  Research  Reports,  pages  26^26 ;  Philip  E.  Ryan,  Migration  and  Social 
Welfare  •  Philip  E.  Ryan,  Relief  for  Transients,  Survey  Midmonthly,  September 
1940,  page  251 ;  Congressional  Record,  March  30,  1989,  page  5007 ;  W.  P.  A.  report. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JANE  M.  HOEY  AND  JACK  B.  TATE— Eesumed 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  wonder  if  at  this  time  you  might  not  discuss  for 
the  committee  the  more  important  points  referred  to  in  your  prepared 
statements. 

Miss  HoEY.  I  will  be  very  glad  to  do  that.  It  seems  to  me  that  we 
must  agree  there  is  some  legitimate  migration ;  that  the  United  States 
was  settled,  after  all,  by  migrants,  including  your  family  and  mine, 
probably ;  that  we  do  not  want  to  have  that  suppressed  in  any  sense ; 
that  where  it  is  not  possible  for  people  to  earn  a  living,  they  ought  to 
have  the  right  to  move  to  another  place  where  they  can  earn  a  living. 

So  if  it  is  possible  to  do  that  in  an  orderly  way,  through  the  use  of 
employment  exchanges,  and  notifying  people  ahead  of  time  where 
there  are  opportunities  for  earning  a  living,  it  seems  to  me  that  that 
is  the  only  way  in  which  we  can  legitimately  control  this  migration.^ 

I  believe  from  my  own  long  experience  in  the  public- welfare  field 
practically  all  of  these  people  could  be  made  an  asset  in  any  community 
if  given  the  opportunity. 

There  are  different  types  of  migrants,  of  course.  There  are  some 
agricultural  migrants,  some  industrial  migrants,  and  other  people  who 
go  because  of  ill  health,  such  as  those  who  go  to  Arizona  and  New 
Mexico;  and  many  of  those  who  have  had  an  opportunity  to  recover 
became  an  asset  to  the  coimnunity  in  which  they  resided. 

Likewise,  it  seems  to  me  also  that  perhaps  the  problem  has  seemed 
only  a  problem  and  as  a  liability  because  there  was  so  much  migration 
to  particular  areas,  like  California,  where  you  had  very  large  num- 
bers of  people  with  inadequate  care  of  them.  There  were  health  and 
welfare  problems  that  arose  out  of  that  migration. 

Today,  with  the  defense  industries,  and  with  camps  being  set  up  in 
almost  every  State,  every  one  of  those  States  has  a  migrant  problem. 

So  that  I  believe  that  now  there  will  be  a  recognition  that  some 
people  who  come  in  from  the  outside  may  be  an  asset  and  desirable, 
and  may  be  necessary  in  order  to  have  a  proper  labor  supply  in  con- 
nection with  the  defense  industries. 

It  seems  to  me,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  a  little  more  sympathetic  attitude 
on  the  part  of  the  States  toward  this  problem  is  necessary  because 
it  now  affects  on  so  wide  a  scale  all  of  the  States. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3521 

NEEDS   or  DISTRESSED  PEOPLE   NOT   MET 

In  the  programs  which  had  been  developed,  both,  the  Federally  ad- 
ministered programs  and  the  Federal  grants-in-aid  programs,  I  be- 
lieve we  must  recognize  that  all  of  those  together  have  never  met 
the  total  needs  of  the  people  in  distress;  that  the  Work  Projects  Ad- 
ministration appropriations  have  never  been  large  enough  to  take 
care  of  even  all  of  the  able-bodied  employable  people  who  could  not 
find  jobs  in  private  industry;  that  there  was  another  group  of  people 
where  there  was  no  employable  person  in  the  family,  or  where  through 
some  handicap  they  could  not  qualify  for  these  programs.  There 
was  a  large  group  there  of  both  employables  and  unemployables,  and 
families  with  no  working  member  who  have  not  had  anything  except 
very  inadequate  provision  made  for  them,  or  none  at  all.  It  was 
left  entirely  to  the  localities. 

There  are  some  counties  in  the  United  States  that  have  no  public 
funds,  except,  perhaps,  for  hospital  care  or  medical  care  for  persons 
in  emergency  illness. 

PEOPEKTY  TAX   CANNOT  SUPPORT  RELIEF 

We  have  found  that  in  most  States,  in  practically  every  community, 
the  chief  source  of  revenue  both  to  support  all  the  governmental 
functions  and  at  the  same  time  to  support  the  public-assistance  pro- 
grams and  the  general  relief  comes  from  a  property  tax,  and  that 
very  often,  in  your  rural  area  particularly,  your  Dust  Bowl  areas, 
and  many  other  areas  as  well,  that  is  not  sufficient  to  support  the 
relief  program  as  well  as  to  maintain  necessary  governmental 
expenditures. 

There  must  be  some  assistance  in  financing  these  programs  from 
State  funds  as  well  as  local  funds.  I  assume  that  that  is  what  Con- 
gress had  in  mind  in  recognizing  in  our  public-assistance  programs 
that  there  must  be  State  financial  participation  as  well  as  local  funds 
available  where  it  was  not  a  State-administered  program. 

Therefore  I  believe  that  if  we  have  found  it  necessary  in  relation 
to  the  aged,  and  blind,  and  children,  it  would  be  equally  necessary, 
if  you  had  a  general  relief  program,  that  there  be  some  State  funds 
in  it  as  well  as  local  and  Federal  funds. 

However,  12  States  have  not  assumed  any  responsibility  in  the  gen- 
eral relief  program  in  the  way  of  financing,  and  it  is  left  entirely  to 
the  communities,  and  that  very  inadequately,  in  most  instances. 

Even  in  our  programs  where  the  Federal  act  does  not  require  citizen- 
ship for  persons  to  be  eligible,  and  merely  says  that  a  citizen  may  not 
be  excluded  if  otherwise  eligible,  aiid  where  it  says  that  there  cannot 
be  in  excess  of  5  out  of  9  years  of  residence  required  for  the  aged  and 
blind,  the  States  have  not  taken  advantage  of  that  but  have  copied 
this  maximum  in  the  Federal  act,  even  though  Federal  funds  werc- 
available,  if  they  took  care  of  the  ones  that  came  in  under  the  5  years. 

It  seems  to  me  that  there  must  be  some  more  pressure  brought  if 
those  other  people  are  to  be  taken  care  of,  and  there  would  have  to 
be  something  written  in  terms  of  prohibition  against  excluding  persons 


3^22  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

on  the  basis  of  residence  if  you  are  going  to  give  adequate  care  to  the 
residents  and  migrants  as  well  in  this  general-relief  category. 

DEFENSE  EMPLOYMENT  LIMITED 

The  assumption  has  been  in  many  places  that  the  defense  program 
would  take  up  the  labor  supply,  and  that  all  employable  people  would 
be  taken  care  of.  I  think  that  probably  that  is  not  accurate.  At  least 
it  has  not  been  the  experience  to  date.  Those  have  not  been  located 
broadly  enough  to  take  care  of  all  the  people,  resident  and  nonresident 
employables. 

The  defense  industries  in  many  instances  are  requiring  skilled 
workers,  and  we  find  in  the  general  relief  group  that  there  are  many 
people  who  are  unskilled.  The  majority  are  unskilled  or  during  the 
long  period  of  unemployment  have  lost  their  skills. 

Therefore  I  think  even  in  the  employable  group  the  defense  in- 
dustry will  not  take  care  of  all  of  that  group. 

Then,  as  I  mentioned  before,  there  is  a  whole  group  where  they  have 
no  employable  member  of  the  family,  so  that  the  defense  industry 
would  not  affect  that  group  at  all. 

I  mentioned  in  my  memorandum  the  fact  that  the  vocational-re- 
habilitation prograni^  might  be  extended  so  that  more  people  might  be 
trained ;  if  not  to  go  back  to  private  industry,  there  might  be  supple- 
mentary jobs  which  they  could  secure.  The  present  vocational-re- 
habilitation program,  as  I  understand  it,  is  limited  to  persons  who  it 
is  decided  can  go  back  to  competitive  industry.  There  is  another  group 
that,  if  they  liave  an  opportunity  to  be  trained  carefully  and  placed 
on  an  individualized  basis,  they  can  be  made  at  least  partially  self- 
supporting,  if  not  fully  self-supporting.  For  example,  the  blind 
group,  where  in  one  State  they  were  trained  as  mattress  makers  and 
placed  in  State  industries  where  previously  when  a  mattress  became 
soiled  they  had  to  throw  it  away.  These  people  are  employed  to 
re-cover  those  at  a  saving  to  the  State.  There  was  a  very  careful 
training  and  placement  of  those  in  terms  of  their  skills. 

There  has  been  a  good  deal  of  discussion  about  whether,  if  you  had 
a  general  relief  program,  it  might  be  a  federally  administered  pro- 
gram and  perhaps  tied  up  with  a  works  program.  I  believe  that 
would  be  more  desirable,  since  you  already  have  State  administration 
and  local  administration  of  the  three  assistance  programs,  than  to 
have  some  members  of  the  family  cared  for  through  a  federally  admin- 
istered assistance  program  and  the  others  through  a  locally  admin- 
istered assistance  program.  I  think  that  would  not  be  desirable.  It 
is  not  quite  the  same  with  having  a  works  program  which  is  adminis- 
tered federally,  because  the  certification  as  to  the  need  is  made  by  the 
welfare  departments  to  that  works  agency. 

ADMINISTRATION  OF  RELIEF  PRESENTS  PROBLEMS 

Another  suggestion  which  has  been  made  is  a  100-percent  grant  to 
the  States  to  take  care  of  the  migrants.  My  objection  to  that  is  con- 
cerned with  administration.  Also  objectionable  is  the  precedent  that 
is  set  by  any  assumption  by  the  Federal  Government  of  full  financing 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3523 

of  a  program  which  is  totally  locally  and  State  administered.  If  you 
did  not  have  a  program  which  covered  the  residents  who  are  not  now 
being  cared  for  and  who  are  now  in  need,  you  merely  build  up  more 
antagonism  toward  the  migrants,  and  therefore  an  attempt  to  classify 
people  as  migrants  in  order  to  get  the  100-percent  grant.  So  that  I 
have  some  question  as  to  the  desirability  of  that  administratively. 

Also,  I  believe  if  you  have  a  program,  part  of  which  is — that  is, 
there  is  some  local  financing  and  State  financing  in  it,  and  another 
part  which  is  100-percent  federally  financed,  you  get  a  great  many 
problems,  so  it  would  be  desirable  to  have  the  same  basis  for  the  three 
categories  that  we  now  have,  and  have  a  fourth  category  of  general 
relief  on  a  50-percent  basis. 

Personally  I  feel  also  that  the  States  and  localities  have  a  great 
deal  more  sense  of  responsibility  as  to  who  goes  on  the  program, 
as  to  setting  up  restrictions  and  standards  if  they  are  partially 
financed  in  the  States  as  well  as  getting  a  Federal  grant. 

The  question  is,  of  course,  that  whatever  you  do,  if  you  give  even 
a  100  percent  grant,  there  is  a  greater  urge  for  States  to  pass  appro- 
priate legislation  to  match  the  Federal  act.  But  even  with  a  50- 
percent  grant,  in  a  5-year  period,  the  States  have  taken  advantage  of 
it ;  all  but  8  of  them  have  taken  advantage  of  our  3  programs. 

The  old-age  assistance  is,  of  course,  a  more  popular  program. 
There  are  more  people  who  are  old  and  articulate  about  their  needs, 
so  we  have  had  for  nearly  3  years  51  units  for  the  aged  program  and 
43  for  the  blind  and  the  children.  I  think  the  States  would  un- 
doubtedly take  advantage  of  a  fourth  category  and  pass  appropriate 
legislation  fairly  quickly  because  of  the  great  drain  this  is  on  their 
resources. 

The  only  question  is  in  those  States  where  you  have  very  limited 
funds  and  there  seems  little  possibility  of  their  being  able  to  finance 
on  a  broader  basis,  even  if  there  were  50  percent  Federal  funds 
available. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Miss  Hoey,  I  am  particularly  interested  in  that 
part  of  your  statement  having  to  do  with  the  participation  of  the 
Federal  Government.  You  would  recommend  a  straight-out  match- 
ing basis  ? 

Miss  Hoey.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Just  as  you  have  in  all  of  the  other  3  categories 
now? 

Miss  Hoey.  Fifty  percent  on  cost  of  administration  and  assistance 
up  to  a  maximum. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  have  just  made  reference  to  the  fact  that 
the  old-age  assistance  was  your  most  popular  one.  Perhaps  you  can 
tell  the  committee  much  more  accurately  than  I,  but  as  I  recall,  in 
my  own  State,  which  is  of  course  one  of  those  that  j^ou  might  call 
of  low  economic  opportunity,  the  amount  of  participation  in  the  old- 
ao-e  assistance  I  believe  is  an  average  of  a  little  less  than  $10  a 
month. 

Miss  Hoey.  In  Alabama? 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Yes. 

Miss  Hoey.  Yes. 


260370— 41— pt. ' 


or 24  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Sparkman.  To  those  to  whom  anything  is  paid  As  a  matter 
of  fact,  I  believe  that  only  about  one-third  of  those  that  should  be 
getting  that  old-age  assistance  are  getting  it  at  all. 

Miss  HoEY.  That  is  true. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  you  believe  that  my  State  could  participate  on 
a  50-50  basis? 

NEW   GRANTS  FOR   LOW-INCOME    STATES 

Miss  HoEY  That  is  what  I  mentioned,  that  I  think  there  must  be 
additional  Federal  funds  to  the  States  where  they  have  low  economic 


resources.  ,  ^  ,     ■     ^    i    j.x.  4.  • 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  did  not  quite  understand  you  to  include  that  m 
this  discussion.     I  was  anxious  for  you  to  include  it.  . ,    ,    ^  ^, 

Miss  HoEY.  I  did  not  mention  the  variable  grant.  1  said  that  they 
could  not  take  advantage,  you  see,  even  though  there  was  a  Federal 
matching  of  50  percent,  because  of  low  economic  resources.  My 
answer  would  be  a  variable  grant,  which  I  did  not  indicate  before. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  am  sorry  I  missed  that.  I  was  very  anxious  tor 
that  to  be  in  the  record. 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes.  .1    .  •    .i 

Mr  Sparkman.  I  believe,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  that  is  the  recom- 
mendation of  the  Social  Security  Board  as  to  the  other  three  cate- 
gories, is  it  not? 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes.     We  have  made  that  repeatedly. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Twice,  I  know. 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes.  .^^        ^      .         ,  .   ^  ,.       ,,  . 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  probably  you  will  make  it  a  third  time  this 

year. 

Miss  HoEY.  We  will. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  hope  you  keep  it  up.  ,     n         • 

Miss  HoEY.  You  see,  we  see  no  other  way  of  adequately  hnancmg 
those  programs.  I  think  it  is  interesting,  however,  that  out  of  the 
2  000,000  aged  that  are  now  receiving  assistance,  the  average  grant,  the 
national  average  is  $20  a  month ;  that  1,000,000  get  $20  or  over,  and 
that  one  and  a  half  million  get  $15  a  month  or  over,  which  is  fairly 
good. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  includes  both  State,  local,  and  Federal,  that 
$15  or  $20? 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes.  It  is  279,000,  to  be  exact,  who  get  $10  a  month 
or  less.  So  that  I  think  that  is  fairly  good  as  to  distribution  in  terms 
of  amount,  nationally.  That  small  group  that  gets  less  than  $10  is  in 
the  southern  States. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Of  course,  that  does  not  reflect  the  true  condition, 
either,  that  I  just  mentioned,  that  probably  more  than  half — in  fact,  a 
couple  of  years  ago,  when  I  was  making  a  little  study  of  that  in  my 
own  district,  I  came  to  the  conclusion  that  only  about  one-third  of 
the  eligibles  were  receiving  anything  at  all. 

Miss  HoEY.  That  is  perfectly  true  in  those  States  even  where  they 
have  low  grants;  there  are  long  waiting  lists.  In  one  State  we  have 
doubled  the  number  on  the  waiting  list  of  those  that  are  actually  get- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3525 

ting  assistance.  There  are  about  200,000  aged  people  in  the  United 
States  who  are  on  the  waiting  list  with  about  2,000,000  getting  help. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Last  year  we  passed  an  amendment  to  the  Social 
Security  Act  raising  the  amount  of  the  Federal  participation  to  $20 
a  month,  rather  a  futile  gesture  for  a  great  part  of  the  country,  do  you 
not  think  so? 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes ;  although  I  think  it  has  made  a  noticeable  differ- 
ence in  some  States  where  they  have  more  adequate  resources  a^d  can 
take  advantage.    But  those  are  already  the  better-to-do  States. 

UNSKILLED  MIGRANTS  SEEK  DEFENSE  JOBS 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  speak  of  the  migration  of  individuals  in  con- 
nection with  the  national-defense  program.  Have  you  any  informa- 
tion that  might  indicate  whether  this  migi^ation  is  largely  of  employ- 
able persons  or  are  there  a  great  many  persons  who  are  going  into  those 
sections  in  the  hope  that  they  might  find  employment  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  I  think  there  are  a  great  many  who  are  going  there 
just  in  the  hope  of  getting  employment.  Some  may  be  more  competent 
to  do  the  jobs  than  others;  others  are  not  competent,  not  only  in  terms 
of  skills,  but  actually  not  able  to  do  it;  they  are  too  old,  or  for  some 
other  reason  are  handicapped.  We  have  no  figures  that  would  show 
that  migi-ation,  because  it  is  a  very  rapid  thing. 

In  the  Norfolk  area,  2  months  ago,  they  had  35,000  that  had  sud- 
denly come  in.    It  is  very  hard  to  keep  track  of  that. 

Our  general  impression  is  that,  of  those  people  who  are  going,  quit© 
a  great  many  are  unskilled,  and,  therefore,  if  the  defense  industries  call 
for  skilled  workers  they  will  not  get  jobs,  although  they  may  get 
supplementary  jobs  in  restaurants,  rooming  houses,  or  other  places 
where  these  people  have  to  live,  but  not  actually  in  the  defense  industry 
itself. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  it  contemplated  that  most  of  these  people  are 
going  to  settle  down  in  these  areas,  or  do  you  think  they  are  there  just 
for  a  short  time  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  We  have  little  way  of  knowing.  If  there  is  an  oppor- 
tunity of  earning  a  living,  they  are  going  to  stay ;  if  there  is  not,  they 
will  go  on  somewhere  else. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  If  they  do,  when  this  boom  era  is  over  there  is  going 
to  be  quite  a  headache  in  those  particular  communities,  is  there  not  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  A  very  serious  problem. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  recommend  that  a  great  number  of  persons 
might  be  trained  for  partial  work. 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  mentioned  one  occupation — mattress  making. 

Miss  HoEY.  Oh,  that  was  a  mere  incident  illustrating  the  case  of 
handicapped  persons. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  just  wonder  if  you  can  give  us  an  idea  of  some 
other  occupations  that  they  might  be  trained  for? 

Miss  HoEY.  It  is  not  a  question,  I  think,  of  the  type  of  job  you  can 
train  a  person  for.  I  personally  have  had  a  good  deal  of  experience 
in  relation  to  prison  industries,  and  we  found  that  we  could  not  pos- 


3526 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


sibly  compete  in  training  people  on  a  particular  machine  because  we 
could  not  keep  up  with  the  modern  machinery  in  industries.  But 
what  you  can  do  is  to  train  them.  They  are  hand-minded  and  you  can 
teach  them  to  do  something  with  their  hands.  Find  out  what  their 
interests  are,  what  their  aptitudes  are  by  certain  group  tests  of  those 
people,  and  then  see  what  kind  of  things  you  can  tram  them  for.  It 
is  not  a  specific  job.  .       .    .  ,    , 

I  think  it  is  an  expensive  thing  to  do,  but  I  thnik  it  is  much  less 
expensive  than  to  support  these  people  on  relief  for  the  rest  of  their 
lives,  that  you  really  do  something  in  terms  of  considering  them  as  a 
rehabilitation  problem  rather  than  simply  as  a  problem  of  support. 

FOURTH  CATEGORY  OF  SOCIAL  SECURITY 

Mr.  Sparkman.  With  reference  to  the  fourth  category  that  you 
recommend,  as  I  understand,  that  would  cover  the  whole  field  of 
general  relief. 

Miss  HoEY.  Residents  and  nonresidents  ? 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Yes.  In  other  words,  the  migrant  relief  would  be 
just  one  feature  of  that? 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes.  . 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  you  think  that  such  a  program,  put  into  effect, 
would  cause  the  States  to  change  their  laws  so  as  to  fit  in?  I  have  in 
mind  particularly  the  settlement  laws  that  you  mentioned. 

Miss  HoEY.  I  think  you  would  have  to  make  the  granting  of  Federal 
funds  conditional  upon  the  States  either  having  no  residence  law  at  all 
or  having  a  maximum  of,  say,  a  year  or  6  months. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  wonder  which  you  would  recommend. 

Miss  HoEY.  I  would  recommend,  first,  the  elimination  of  any  settle- 
ment law,  if  I  had  my  choice.  But  I  do  not  know  whether  that  is  pos- 
sible. But  I  would  certainly;  make  it  a  maximum  of  1  year  for  gaining 
residence  and  for  losing  residence ;  that  is,  that  the  person  would  not 
lose  his  residence  until  he  had  been  gone  from  the  State  a  year. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Miss  Hoey,  I  was  interested  in  one  of  the  tables  in 
one  of  your  supplements  having  to  do  with  the  settlement  laws. 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes. 

POOR  states'  residence  requirements  low 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  noticed  that  there  were  only  two  States  that  re- 
quired a  6  months'  residence ;  that  is  to  say,  not  more  than  a  6  months' 
residence.  Those  States  were  Alabama  and  Mississippi.  I  noticed 
that  a  great  many  of  the  wealthier  States  had  a  stricter  residence  law. 
I  just  wonder  what  the  explanation  of  that  is,  why  those  States  which 
are  best  able  to  handle  the  problem  require  a  long  residence,  whereas 
those  States  having  the  greatest  struggle  provide  for  a  shorter  resi- 
dence or  settlement  period  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  I  think  those  States  have  been  fearful  of  the  migrants 
who  have  been  coming  in.  They  came,  as  in  California,  because  of 
the  weather  that  we  have  heard  about. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Just  heard  about? 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3527 

Miss  HoEY.  Well,  it  has  been  broadcast,  as  it  were.  They  come  in 
for  that  reason  and  because  they  know  that  they  would  save  money  in 
the  cost  of  living,  perhaps,  because  they  would  not  need  fuel  and  all 
the  other  things.  And  those  States,  in  defense,  have  put  up  their 
residence  laws. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  other  words,  they  have  put  up  the  barrier  in 
self-defense. 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes.  They  have  unfortunately,  in  some  States,  ap- 
pealed for  workers  to  come  in  when  they  needed  them  for  a  short 
period;  in  the  farming  industries,  particularly  in  the  harvesting  of 
the  crops.  Then  at  the  end  of  the  period  they  felt  they  had  no  obli- 
gation concerning  the  care  of  those  people. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  stated  that  in  40  States,  I  believe  it  was,  of  the 
48  States,  provision  is  made  for  the  care  of  transients  on  a  relief  set- 
up.   I  wonder  to  what  extent  that  relief  is  given  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  I  think  that  was  overemphasis,  and  I  regret  having 
made  that  statement,  because  it  gives,  perhaps,  a  false  impression. 
When  we  say  that  40  States  paid  some  attention — that  is  really  what 
I  should  have  said — that  meant  that  perhaps  one  area  in  a  State  did 
that.  It  does  not  mean  that  all  parts  of  the  State  give  any  help.  It 
means  any  assistance  at  all,  even  to  providing  gasoline  to  get  to  the 
next  town.    Those  were  included  within  the  40. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  other  words,  what  you  really  mean  is  that  there 
are  8  States  in  which  there  is  no  attention  given  to  that. 

Miss  HoEY.  There  is  not  even  the  gesture,  and  in  a  lot  of  the  other 
40  States  it  is  just  a  gesture,  in  order  to  get  rid  of  the  people,^  by 
housing  them  in  jails  overnight,,  or  that  kind  of  thing.  But  it  is  just 
any  kind  of  care  at  all,  and  in  most  of  them  it  is  certainly  very  inade- 
quate care. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  know  that  the  State  welfare  directors  in  several 
different  States  have  told  us  very  frankly  that,  while  they  would  like 
to  give  that  kind  of  relief,  they  could  not  reasonably  be  expected  to 
do  so,  when  they  could  use  that  dollar  on  one  of  the  other  categories 
and  have  it  go  twice  as  far. 

Miss  HoEY.  That  is  true,  or  to  take  care  of  the  residents  for  whom 
they  have  a  greater  responsibility,  as  they  felt.  There  is  no  reluc- 
tance, I  believe,  on  the  part  of  such  State  administrators  to  give  assist- 
ance to  these  people  if  they  had  the  resources  with  which  to  do  it. 
They  would  give  adequate  care  and  would  be  glad  to  give  it,  if  they 
had  the  resources. 

GENERAL  RELIEF  FOR  SHORT  PERIODS 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  it  your  belief,  as  the  result  of  your  own  ex- 
perience, that  it  is  impossible  to  carry  out  a  State-assistance  program 
for  migrants  without  strengthening  it  from  the  general  relief  program  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  I  think  it  is  impossible  and  undesirable  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  other  words,  it  must  go  along  as  part  of  the 
general  relief  program  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  That  is  my  personal  opinion.  I  think  it  would  be  un- 
fortunate to  make  a  provision  for  residents  as  against  nonresidents, 


rjroc  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

because  greater  antagonism  would  come  from  the  nonresidents,  and  it 
would  create  a  greater  cost.  4^     ^    .i     4^    ^  ^u  f 

Mr  Spaekman.  I  notice  in  your  statement  you  reter  to  the  tact  that 
the  W  P  A ,  P  W.  A..  N.  Y.  A.,  and  C.  C.  C.  programs  have  been 
unable  to 'absorb  all  of  the  able-bodied  unemployed  persons  in  need  of 
employment.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  they  never  will  and  cannot  be 
expected  to,  can  they  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  I  do  not  think  so.  Furthermore,  for  people,  some  of 
them,  who  are  unemployed  for  short  periods,  the  work  program  is 
unsuitable.  You  cannot  develop  good  projects  for  people  who  are 
goino-  to  be  on  today  and  off  tomorrow.  You  have  to  consider  them  aa 
being  employed  for  a  fairly  long  period,  and,  if  you  are  going  actually 
to  attempt  that,  you  cannot  have,  generally,  a  lot  of  changes.  So  I 
believe  a  general  relief  program  for  people  unemployed  for  short 
periods  is  much  more  suitable  than  a  work  program. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Has  the  Social  Security  Board  made  any  estimates 
or  studies  as  to  what  the  cost  of  a  general  relief  program  would  be,  on 
such  a  basis  as  you  recommend  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  The  Research  Bureau  has  made  some  studies  on  that. 
It  is  not  a  very  adequate  basis,  because  we  do  not  know  how  quickly 
the  States  would  take  advantage  of  any  such  Federal  program.  As 
you  know,  this  year  44  legislatures  are  in  session.  If  something  went 
through  the  Congress  before  those  went  home,  you  might  get  some- 
thing enacted  but,  if  not,  as  to  those  States  that  only  have  their  legisla- 
tures meet  every  2  years,  there  would  be  quite  a  long  period  before 
they  would  be  able  to  enact  legislation  to  take  advantage  of  it.  So 
that  I  think,  based  upon  the  need  of  all  the  States  taking  advantage 
at  one  time,  our  Research  Bureau  estimated  something  like  $250,000,000 
the  first  year.  I  could  supply  you  with  some  additional  data  from  our 
Research  Bureau  in  relation  to  that. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  believe  that  would  be  very  helpful,  if  we  could 
have  that. 

Miss  HoEY.  I  will  be  glad  to  furnish  it. 

(The  following  memorandum  was  received  later  from  Miss  Hoey 

and  accepted  for  the  record:) 

Decembek  13,  1940. 
Miss  Jane  Hobtt, 

Director,  Bureau  of  PuUic  Assistance. 
Anne  E.  Geddes, 

Chief,  Division  of  PuUic  Assistance  Research, 

Bureau  of  Research  and  Statistics. 
Tolan  committee's  question  on  cost  of  extending  general  relief  program 
This  is  in  reply  to  your  memorandum  of  December '7. 

We  suggest  that  no  change  be  made  in  the  estimate  of  $250,000,000  which  you 
gave  in  your  testimony  before  the  Tolan  committee  as  the  cost  to  the  Federal 
Government  of  a  general-relief  program  in  the  first  year  of  operation,  assuming 
50  percent  matching  and  provision  for  both  resident  and  nonresident  cases. 

It  is  extremely  difficult  to  estimate  the  cost  of  a  general  relief  program  in  the 
absence  of  detailed  specifications  concerning  conditions  of  eligibility  and  types 
and  amounts  of  aid  to  be  provided.  For  example,  vpould  medical  care  be  pro- 
vided under  the  general-relief  program  as  under  the  Federal  Emergency  Relief 
Administration  program?  Would  hospitalization  be  provided?  Payments  for  this 
type  of  aid  were  not  matched  by  the  Federal  Government  under  the  Federal 
Emergency  Relief  Administration.     Would  these  services  be  available  only  to 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3529 

persons  receiving  subsistence  care  or  would  they  be  available  also  to  the  medi- 
cally needy?  It  is  also  diflBcult  to  make  cost  estimates  without  assumptions  as 
to  the  probable  size  of  the  Work  Projects  Administration  and  surplus  commodity 
and  stamp  plan  programs  and  as  to  general  economic  conditions.  Needs  for 
general  relief  are  greatly  affected  by  the  phase  of  the  business  cycle.  If  specili- 
cations  were  set  up  for  a  general  relief  title,  estimates  might  vary  substantially 
from  the  figure  which  you  quoted,  but  until  such  specitications  are  set  forth  it 
does  not  seem  feasible  to  make  more  precise  estimates. 

In  the  12-month  period,  November  1939  to  October  1940,  expenditures  for  gen- 
eral relief,  exclusive  of  medical  care  and  hospitalization  and  also  of  administra- 
tion, amounted  to  $400,000,000.  At  this  level  of  expenditure  the  Federal  share 
would  be  approximately  $205,000,000.  The  availability  of  Federal  funds  for 
general  relief  would  of  course  greatly  stimulate  growth  in  the  volume  of  pay- 
ments, but  there  would  be  some  lag  between  enactment  of  a  general  relief  title 
and  enactment  of  State  legislation  and  the  approval  of  State  plans  to  permit 
States  to  take  advantage  of  Federal  funds.  The  extent  of  the  lag  would  depend 
upon  the  specifications  of  the  Federal  act,  particularly  with  respect  to  eligibility. 
If  the  provisions  of  the  Federal  title  were  broad,  little  amendment  to  State  legis- 
lation would  be  required.  The  States  would  hasten  to  qualify  because  of  the 
incentive  to  benefit  from  Federal  funds. 

Annual  expenditures  for  administration  of  general  relief  are  now  approxi- 
mately $60,0<JO,000.  At  this  level  of  expenditure,  the  annual  Federal  cost  for 
administration  would  be  $30,000,000.  With  Federal  participation  in  the  general- 
relief  program,  there  would  be  sharp  increase  in  the  volume  of  administrative 
expense ;  but  lag  between  enactment  of  Federal  legislation  and  approval  of  State 
plans  would  to  some  extent  retard  the  growth  in  such  expenses  in  the  first  year 
of  operation  by  agencies  with  approved  plans. 

It  is  doubtful  whether  the  $250,000,000  estimate  is  large  enough  if  it  is  intended 
to  cover  medical  care  and  hospitalization.  In  1940  it  is  estimated  that  expendi- 
tures of  general  relief  agencies  for  medical  care  and  hospitalization,  exclusive  of 
amounts  intended  for  these  services  and  included  in  cash  grants,  will  be  roughly 
$30,000,000.  If  there  were  Federal  participation  in  payments  for  medical  care 
and  hospitalization,  expenditures  for  these  services  would  rise  enormously,  even 
in  the  first  year  of  operation.  At  present  these  services  are  provided  in  whole 
or  in  part  in  many  States  under  programs  other  than  the  general-relief  program. 
The  availability  of  Federal  funds  for  medical  care  and  hospitalization  would 
result  in  some  shifting  of  these  services  to  the  general  relief  agency. 

We  have  no  basis  for  estimating  the  cost  of  care  for  the  migratory  and  non- 
resident groups.  Again  the  estimates  would  depend  upon  the  types  of  care  to 
be  given  and  particularly  upon  whether  the  general-relief  program  would  embrace 
institutional  and  camp  facilities  for  migrants.  The  costs  would  also  depend  upon 
whether  the  Work  Projects  Administration  and  Farm  Security  Administration 
were  to  discontinue  care  for  these  groups. 

Mr.  Falk  is  now  preparing  a  memorandum  giving  crude  estimates  of  Federal 
matching  of  general  relief  which  may  supply  you  with  the  type  of  data  in  which 
you  are  interested.  A  copy  of  this  memorandum  will  be  sent  to  you  as  soon  as 
it  is  completed. 

Anne  E.  Geddes. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JANE  M.  HOEY  AND  JACK  B.  TATE— Resumed 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Let  me  ask  you  this :  How  many  States  have  taken 
up  the  old-age  assistance  program?     Any  of  them? 

Miss  HoET.  For  the  last  3  years,  they  have.  That  includes  Hawaii, 
Alaska,  and  the  District  of  Columbia. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  For  what  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  The  last  3  years.  Every  one  has  been  in  the  51  units 
for  the  last  3  years. 

Mr.  Sparkmaist.  Fifty-one  units;  they  include  the  Territories  and 
District  of  Columbia? 


ocQQ  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Miss  HoET.  The  Territories  and  the  District  of  Columbia ;  yes. 

Mr  Sparkman.  What  about  State  old  age? 

Miss  HoET.  Only  43  States;  some  of  those  larger  States,  like  Ilhnois, 
have  never  taken  advantage  of  the  Federal  act. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Forty -three? 

Miss  HoEY.  Forty-three  of  those  jurisdictions. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is,  there  are  51  jurisdictions,  and  43  of  them 
have  taken  advantage? 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  that  the  third  category,  or  does  that  go  into  the 
same  one  as  aid  to  dependent  children  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  No;  there  are  three  categories— blind,  aged,  and 
dependent  children. 

farm  SECURITY  PROGRAM  HELPFUL 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  have  not  mentioned  and  I  do  not  know 
whether  I  should  ask  you,  or  not,  but  in  any  kind  of  relief  program 
such  as  you  recommend  would  you  recommend  the  extension  or 
expansion  of  the  farm  security  program,  the  surplus  crop  marketing 
program— I  have  reference  particularly  to  the  food  stamp  plan— 
and  the  rural  rehabilitation  program  of  the  Farm  Security 
Administration  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  The  food  stamp,  if  I  may  take  that  first,  has  been 
very  helpful,  particularly  in  the  States  where  the  grants  were  low, 
in  supplementing  public-assistance  grants  as  well  as  in  supplying 
help.  It  has  been  used  by  the  State  agencies  to  supplement  the  low 
grants  in  many  States,  or  to  take  care  of  the  group  on  the  waiting 
list  as  well  as  the  general  relief  group. 

There  needs  to  be,  it  seems  to  me,  on  the  local  level  and  on  the 
State-Federal  level,  closer  cooperation  of  the  farm  security  and 
public-assistance  programs,  because  they,  in  some  instances,  are  giving 
relief  to  farm  families,  and  that  needs  to  be  coordinated  in  the  same 
county  with  the  public  welfare  administration  progi'ams.  I  think 
there  is  no  conflict  there.  In  other  words,  they  are  taking  care  of 
a  gi^oup  that  the  local  relief  administration  did  not  have  an  oppor- 
tunity to  take  care  of.  The  loan  program  is  not  equipped  to  do 
that  and  I  think,  in  that  instance,  it  has  been  very  helpful,  and  some 
of  the  loans  may  become  a  dead  letter  and  assistance  should  be 
granted.  Therefore,  that  needs  to  be  closely  coordinated  with 
Federal  relief. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  other  words,  you  would  recommend,  as  I 
understand,  that  the  Farm  Security  "^Administration  function  in  a 
supplemental  capacity? 

Miss  HoEY.  I  do  not  know  who  would  supplement  wliat. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Each  agency  would  be  supplemental  to  the  other? 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Because  that  family  that  is  breaking  up  the  farm 
and  moving  into  town  is  going  to  become  your  client  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3531 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  if  the  Farm  Administration  cannot  keep  them 
out  on  the  farm,  making  a  living  as  an  independent  unit,  it  means 
they  will  move  to  town  ? 

CXDORDINATE  FARM  AND  RELIEF  PROGRAMS 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes.  On  the  other  hand,  the  Public  Welfare  Admin- 
istration is  taking  care  of  a  great  many  farm  families  also,  so  that 
those  two  programs  need  to  be  very  closely  coordinated.  That  is  on 
a  line  that  has  a  different  basis  than  assistance.  But  I  believe  the  one 
agency  ought  to  give  assistance,  and  not  two. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  was  just  noticing  an  article  in  the  paper  last  night 
to  the  effect  that  the  food-stamp  plan  has  spread  to  203  communities, 
I  believe  it  is. 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  It  would  be  your  thought  that,  functioning  as  it 
does,  certainly  there  would  be  a  great  many  more  communities  through 
the  years  that  could  use  it  with  profit  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes.  My  field  staff  happens  to  be  in  at  the  moment  and 
we  met  yesterday  with  the  field  staff  to  create  cooperation,  because  there 
is  in  some  measure  a  conflict  between  our  bodies.  In  the  food-stamp 
plan,  you  are  trying  to  get  a  consumption  of  surplus  products ;  in  our 
program,  we  are  trying  to  see  that  these  people  get  money  that  they 
can  use  in  any  way  they  please.  In  other  words,  if  they  get  a  $12  food 
budget,  if  this  week  they  want  to  spend  $10  for  food  and  $2  for  shoes, 
we  think  they  should  be  able  to  do  that ;  in  other  words,  we  ought  to 
try  to  have  families  getting  assistance  living  as  normally  as  any  other 
family  in  the  community.  Now,  the  food-stamp  people  are  saying, 
"You  must  spend  so  much  for  food  in  order  to  get  these  stamps."  We 
have  said,  "You  must  have  no  restrictive  payments."  Mr.  Tate  will 
speak  on  that,  he  being  the  general  counsel  and  interpreting  the  Fed- 
eral law  for  us.  The  food-stamp  people  are  saying  "You  must  spend 
this  amount  for  food,  or  you  cannot  get  these  blue  stamps."  So  there 
seems  to  be  a  conflict  there  and  we  have  discussed  that  to  see  if  we 
cannot  work  out  what  is  best  for  both,  without  having  the  one  program 
contravene  the  other  program. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Of  course  the  cotton  stamp  plan,  which  has  been 
experimented  with,  would  take  care  of  some  of  them. 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes.  This  only  takes  care  of  the  food-stamp  plan  and 
cash  assistance  which  is  in  accordance  with  the  Federal  Act,  and 
must  be. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  you  think  it  might  be  extended  to  cover  neces- 
sary clothing? 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes.  Although,  again,  the  objective  there  is  simply  to 
get  rid  of  surplus  foods.  My  understanding  is  that  is  their  objective, 
rather  than  to  provide  a  balanced  diet,  or  to  provide  adequate  clothing 
for  people.  It  should  be  always  supplemental;  there  should  be  a 
planning  for  the  family  in  terms  of  their  needs.  If  you  can  utilize 
these  other  programs  in  doing  that,  so  much  the  better;  but  do  not 
try  to  change  your  program  in  order  to  meet  the  needs  of  that  program. 


3532  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  wonder  if  I  might  ask  Mr.  Tate  one 
question  ? 

The  Chairman.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  just  wondered,  Mr.  Tate — I  am  through  ques- 
tioning Miss  Hoey — if  there  is  any  point  we  have  mentioned  that 
you  differ  with,  or  have  a  little  different  interpretation  to  give  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Not  substanially.  I  think  what  Miss  Hoey  says  about  a 
general  category  relief  program  that  treats  the  migrant  as  part  of 
the  whole  program  is  entirely  right  and  proper.  I  think  the  migrant 
problem  is  an  aspect  of  the  relief  problem  and  I  think  it  is  entirely 
proper  there  should  be  a  fourth  category  in  this  general  relief  group 
and  it  becomes  all  the  more  necessary  then  to  move  your  age  and  your 
residence  requirements  down  from  the  present  requirements  of  the 
Social  Security  Act,  which  permits  an  exclusion  where  there  is  a 
residence  below  any  5  years  out  of  the  past  9,  to  at  least  1  year. 

AID  MIGRANT  ACCORDING  TO   NEED 

I  agree  with  MisS  Hoey  it  is  desirable  to  get  away  from  that 
altogether  and  have  the  assistance  payments  made  where  the  man  is, 
in  accordance  with  his  need  there. 

I  do  not  entirely  agree  with  Miss  Hoey  on  the  question  of  degree 
or  the  feasibility  of  the  100-percent  Federal  grant  for  the  group  under 
1  year.  I  think  it  would  have  to  be  very  carefully  safeguarded  in 
order  to  prevent  the  enticement  of  people  from  places  where  assist- 
ance payments  are  low  to  places  where  they  are  high.  Obviously  it 
would  create  a  greater  problem  than  exists  even  now.  I  think  you 
could  do  that  by  some  method  of  safeguarding  and,  of  course,  you 
would  always  have  the  administrative  problem  of  preventing  the 
loading  of  the  less-than-l-year-residence  group,  in  order  to  get  100- 
percent  Federal  funds,  instead  of  using  50  percent  of  State  funds. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Miss  Hoey,  do  you  want  the  last  word  on  that  ? 

Miss  HoET.  We  often  disagree,  but  it  is  a  very  friendly  debate. 
You  see,  I  have  to  administer;  he  only  has  to  advise  me  on  the  law. 
So  that  while  I  think  it  might  be  done,  I  think  Mr.  Tate  would  agree 
a  general  relief  program  is  more  desirable  which  includes  residents 
and  nonresidents. 

Mr.  Tate.  Oh,  yes. 

Miss  Hoey.  If  we  could  not  get  that,  what  else  could  we  get? 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Tate,  I  suppose  you  know  that  this  is  the 
concluding  hearing  of  this  committee.  We  have  had  seven  field 
hearings  in  various  States,  and  the  purpose  of  these  hearings  here 
is  to  fill  up  any  gaps  that  might  appear  in  the  record  when  we  come 
to  write  our  report.  So  that  we  have  prepared  some  questions  here 
that  I  desire  to  present  to  you  for  that  very  purpose — for  the  record 
purpose,  don't  you  see? 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes. 

DEFINES  DOMICILE,  RESUiENCE,  SETTLEMENT 

The  Chairman.  And  I  will  read  them  to  you  now  and  then  you 
will  kindly  give  your  answers. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3533 

In  our  hearings  over  the  country,  the  committee  has  become 
cognizant  of  some  peculiar  situations  which  have  arisen  as  the  result 
of  legal  interpretations  of  various  constitutional  and  statutory  doc- 
trines dealing  with  citizenship,  domicile,  residence,  and  settlement. 
Your  statement,  which  will  be  inserted  in  the  record  in  full,  treats 
with  all  of  these  questions.  I  wish  you  would  at  this  time  discuss  the 
legal  difference  between  "domicile,"  "residence,"  and  "settlement." 

Mr.  Tate.  Mr.  Tolan,  I  think  we  ought  to  recognize  right  in  the 
beginning  that  these  terms — domicile,  residence,  settlement — are  not 
absolute  terms;  they  may  have  different  meanings  in  different  con- 
texts. You  may  have  one  residence  for  purposes  of  taxation;  you 
may  have  a  different  residence  for  purposes  of  divorce,  or  a  different 
residence  for  purposes  of  relief,  say.  Roughly,  I  think  you  can  say 
this,  that  domicile  is  a  place  where  you  expect  to  stay  permanently. 
Then,  as  to  "settlement,"  I  think  it  should  be  pointed  out  that  it  is 
entirely  a  creature  of  statute  and  it  depends  on  the  statute  as  to  the 
meaning.  Usually,  it  means  approximately  the  same  thing  as 
"residence";  that  is,  the  place  where  you  are  at  present  and  have  no 
intention  of  departing  from,  plus  the  condition  that  no  public  relief 
may  be  received  during  that  period  that  is  set  forth  in  the  settlement 
law. 

I  think  there  has  been  a  great  deal  of  discussion  in  the  committee, 
from  what  I  have  read  in  the  papers,  of  the  various  settlement  laws 
in  the  different  States.  If  any  such  remedy  of  the  problem  as  Miss 
Hoey  and  I  have  suggested  were  adopted,  that  problem  of  the  various 
State  settlement  laws  would  become  irrelevant.  In  other  words,  if 
you  are  making  grants  to  States  for  general  relief  covering  these 
groups,  you  undoubtedly  would  condition  that  grant  on  the  abandon- 
ment of  a  great  many  of  these  restrictive  provisions  in  the  diversity 
of  settlement  laws. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  ask  a  question  on  that? 

The  Chairman.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  you  advocate,  as  Miss  Hoey  does,  the  abolition  of 
all  settlement  laws  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  For  the  purpose  of  granting  assistance,  yes. 

Miss  Hoey.  We  mean  there  restrictiveness  only  in  relation  to  that. 
You  may  need  them  for  other  purposes,  but  I  was  speaking  only  in 
relation  to  grants  of  assistance. 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  you  both  advocate  the  abolition  of  the  settlement 
laws  in  the  treatment  of  the  relief  probliem  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  As  a  condition  to  receiving  relief. 

Mr.  Parsons.  And  why  do  you  so  advocate  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Of  course  the  settlement  laws  go  back  a  long  way.  Miss 
Hoey  was  asked  a  while  ago  why  Certain  States  had  very  restrictive 
settlement  provisions,  and  I  think  she  pointed  out  quite  properly  that 
one  of  the  reasons  is  that  those  States  that  have  the  more  restrictive 
provisions  are  apt  to  be  those  States  into  which  people  migrate  and  in 
which  the  problem  is  more  acute.  It  may  also  be  pointed  out  that 
another  reason  is,  in  a  great  many  States  that  have  those  restrictive 
provisions,  it  is  very  largely  traditional;  it  is  copied  from  the  old 
English  poor  laws  that  go  back  several  hundred  years,  and  it  is  a  case 
of  one  county  creating  a  relief  problem  to  another  county. 


QC34  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

RELIEF  A  NATIONAL  PROBLEM 

It  seems  to  me  this  relief  problem  has  more  and  more  become  less 
of  a  county  problem,  or  even  a  State  problem,  and  has  become  a  na- 
tional problem  and  it  seems  to  me,  as  a  national  problem,  it  requires 
to  a  large  degree  the  abandonment  of  those  restrictive  provisions  of 
settlement  laws.  n  ,     ,      ^ 

Mr.  Sparkman.  As  I  understand  the  recommendation  ot  both  ot 
you  it  is  simply  this,  that  the  Federal  Government's  participation 
would  not  be  based  upon  any  settlement  laws  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Of  course,  if  a  State  wanted  a  settlement  law  for 
the  administration  of  additional  relief  of  its  own,  that  would  be  all 
right;  but  you  would  set  up  a  program  providing  that  the  Federal 
Government  would  not  participate  on  any  such  basis? 

Miss  HoEY.  That  is  right 

The  Chairman.  And  that  answer  is  based,  I  take  it,  Mr.  Tate,  on  the 
proposition  that  we  are  all  citizens  of  the  48  States  and,  being  an 
American  citizen  traveling  between  those  States,  if  you  are  in  one 
and  need  relief,  there  ought  to  be  no  State  barriers? 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  the  reason  back  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  In  your  statement,  you  recite  that  five  States  in 
1939  tightened  State  requirements  for  settlement;  that  is,  those  States 
are  really  tightening  up  on  their  obligations.  Have  you  noticed  a 
trend  to  tighten  up  on  residence  requirements  for,  say,  getting  a  di- 
vorce; or  is  the  tendency  in  that  instance  to  lighten  the  residence 
requirements  to  induce  business  into  the  State?  Take  Nevada,  for 
instance. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  you  mean  to  include  divorce  and  relief  laws  in 
the  same  category  ? 

The  Chairman.  It  is  just  the  difference  in  causes. 

Mr.  Tate.  I  suppose  it  is  a  very  natural  and  human  tendency, 
when  you  are  getting  something,  to  put  less  restrictions  on  it  than 
when  "you  have  to  hand  out  something.  Obviously,  looking  back 
over  a  period  of  years,  the  divorce  laws  have  become  much  less  re- 
strictive. Some  States  have,  I  believe,  announced  they  get  business 
through  their  divorce  laws. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  activated  by  the  dollar,  is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Certainly. 

STATE  INVOKES  MIGRANT  DIFFERENTIAL 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Would  you  say  along  those  lines,  Mr.  Tate,  that  the 
Florida  situation  is  rather  a  good  example  of  a  State  seeking  desirable 
migrants  and  excluding  undesirable  migrants  ?  I  refer  to  their  policy 
of  advertising  with  the  taxpayers'  money  to  encourage  people  to  come 
to  Florida,  and  stopping  people  at  the  border  if  they  suspect  they 
may  become  public  charges. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Yes.  Obviously  the  State  wants  to  receive  the  benefits 
from  the  more  well-to-do  migrants  and,  obviously,  does  not  want  to 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3535 

undertake  the  obligation  of  the  less  well-to-do  migrants,  where  they 
would  have  to  assist  in  their  support. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  From  a  purely  legal  standpoint,  what  is  your  opinion 
of  the  Florida  situation  as  respects  the  stopping  of  people  at  the 
border  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Mr.  Congressman,  that  raises  a  very  difficult  question 
and  that  I  do  not  know  can  be  answered  with  any  degree  of  authority 
at  all.  I  depends  on  a  balancing,  as  I  read  the  cases,  between  two 
constructions  of  these  constitutional  privileges — the  commerce  clause 
privileges,  the  immunity  bars,  and  so  forth  and  so  on — of  giving  them 
a  wide  interpretation,  as  against  the  traditional  concept,  that  a  State 
may  prevent,  any  political  unit  may  prevent,  a  drain  on  itself,  in  an 
emergent  situation.  And  where  that  balancing  takes  place  in  a  par- 
ticular case  is  very  hard  to  say;  it  is  particularly  hard  to  say  here, 
because  the  people  we  are  talking  about  are  not  people,  however 
litigious  they  may  be  (and  nobody  knows  much  about  that),  who  can 
fight  their  way  through  the  courts,  and  it  is  interesting  to  me  that 
there  is  no  appellate  decision  of  recent  years  on  this  question. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Would  you  refer  to  the  decision,  speaking,  of  course, 
as  a  layman,  of  the  New  York  State  Court  of  Appeals  in  the  so-called 
Ohio  Deportation  case,  as  an  appellate  decision  affecting  that  question  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  That  did  not  affect  the  constitutional  side  of  the  case, 
and  that  was  the  pith  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  The  constitutional  side  of  the  case  may  be  presented,  and 
as  a  matter  of  fact  today  I  understand  that  that  case  is  being  pre- 
sented to  the  District  Court  in  New  York.     That  is  the  Chirillo  case  ? 

Mr.  Osmers.  That  is  the  Chirillo  case.  Is  that  being  presented  on 
constitutional  grounds  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  On  the  constitutional  grounds. 

Mr.  Osmers.  I  am  glad  to  know  that,  because  a  lot  of  us  interested 
on  the  constitutional  side  of  it  were  very  much  disappointed  that  the 
Court  of  Appeals  made  no  decision. 

Mr.  Tate.  No.     They  went  off  on  a  construction  of  the  statute. 

FLORmA-CALirORNrA  RIVALJtY 

Mr.  Parsons.  Have  you  noticed,  Mr.  Tate,  whether  there  is  any 
rivalry  or  competition  in  the  importation  of  desirable  migrants 
between  California  and  Florida? 

Mr.  Tate.  I  think  all  the  States  like  to  get  desirable  migrants ;  they 
like  to  increase  the  average  income  in  the  State.  I  think  it  is  not  a 
situation  limited  to  Florida  and  California,  although  undoubtedly 
rivalry  exists  there  and  is  more  pointed  there  than  in  other  States. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Well,  California  does  do  a  great  deal  of  advertising, 
does  it  not,  for  desirable  migrants  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Osmers.  New  Jersey  is  the  only  State  in  the  Union  that  wel- 
comes both  the  well-to-do  and  the  indigent. 

The  Chairman.  I  want  to  say,  Mr.  Tate,  being  from  California, 
I  have  got  this  all  through  the  country.     I  was  just  thinking  about 


3536 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


these  destitute  migrants  going  into  various  States.  My  home  Statb 
of  California  would  not  dare  think  of  raising  a  barrier  against  the 
importation  of  oranges  from  Florida,  would  she,  or  vice  versa,  because 
they  would  retaliate,  would  they  not ;  but  destitute  citizens,  of  course, 
are  a  different  i^roposition.  Do  you  know,  Mr.  Tate — probably  you 
do — that  many  of  our  States  in  the  Union  make  it  a  misdemeanor 
to  transport  destitute  citizens  across  State  lines,  and  South  Dakota 
makes  it  a  felony,  and  a  penitentiary  offense  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes.  I  think  I  point  out  in  my  statement  the  South 
Dakota  and  North  Dakota  case  in  which  the  judge  that  rendered  the 
opinion  was  very  firm. 

Mr.  Curtis.  At  that  point,  may  I  ask  this  question :  Is  it  not  true, 
though,  if  you  inquire  into  the  historical  background  of  those 
statutes — and  they  are  all  old — that  was  for  the  protection  of  the 
destitute  person?  In  other  words,  one  State  cannot  dispose  of  the 
relief  problem  by  trickery  or  the  purchasing  of  railway  tickets  and 
bodily  transporting  people  and  loading  them  off  onto  another  State. 
I  do  not  think  it  is  a  barrier  against  the  destitute  person  as  much 
as  it  is  for  the  protection  of  him,  when  those  laws  were  enacted. 

Mr.  Tate.  That  undoubtedly,  Mr.  Congressman,  was  one  of  the 
motives.  However,  I  think  it  is  also  true  that  the  State  to  which 
the  person  moved  did  not  want  to  assume  the  obligation  that  it  did 
not  feel  was  its  obligation.  The  second  jurisdiction  felt  he  was 
"not  one  of  our  people;  why  should  we  support  him?" 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  think  that  is  true. 

AGENCIES  SIGN  TRANSPORTATION  AGREEMENTS  " 

Miss  HoEY.  For  many  years,  Mr.  Congressman,  the  social  agencies 
have  signed  a  transportation  agreement,  as  we  called  it,  that  we  would 
not  transport  one  person  to  another  place  until  that  other  community 
agreed  to  accept  the  person  and  provide  for  him  when  he  got  there. 
So  that  we  have  tried  to  stop  just  that  kind  of  passing  on  an  indi- 
vidual. Yet  it  is  done,  as  you  know;  I  mean  a  person  being  given 
just  enough  gasoline  to  get  on  to  the  next  community,  whether  that 
was  across  State  lines,  or  not. 

The  Chairman.  Another  residence  provision  which  has  interested 
me  is  the  one  used  by  the  various  States  when  they  levy  inheritance 
taxes.  I  remember  that  last  year  we  had  three  States  (Texas, 
Florida,  and  Massachusetts)  fighting  in  the  Supreme  Court  of  the 
United  States  over  whether  or  not  Colonel  Green  was  a  resident  of 
their  State  because  they  wanted  something  out  of  Colonel  Green's 
estate.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  three  States  claiming  a  migrant  at 
the  same  time,  for  the  purpose  of  paying  him  relief?  It  would 
almost  make  one  think  that  there  is  one  law  for  the  rich  and  another 
law  for  the  poor. 

Mr.  Tate.  No;  I  have  never  heard  of  that.  I  think  the  States 
were  very  anxious  to  get  the  tax  on  the  Hetty  Green  estate. 

The  Chairman.  But  they  do  not  feel  that  way  about  migrants, 

Mr.  Tate.  And  they  feel  they  have  nothing  to  gain  fi'om  migrants. 

The  Chairman.  Now,  the  acquisition  of  settlement  in  most  States 
is  dependent  on  a  period  of  self-supporting  residence.     In  your  state- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3537 

ment,  you  mention  the  fact  that  W.  P.  A.  may  be  considered  relief 
and,  as  such,  a  bar  to  the  acquisition,  if  a  State  statute  so  provides. 
Congress  coukl  provide  that  W.  P.  A.  woukl  only  be  made  avaialable 
to  States  that  considered  W.  P.  A.  self-sufficient  employment  for  the 
purpose  of  acquiring  settlement.  Would  you  recommend  that  kind 
of  a  provision  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes;  I  would.  I  think  Congress,  of  course,  could  put  a 
condition  on  those  grants,  and  would  so  recommend,  and  some  of  the 
States  do  recognize  them  as  not  creating  a  settlement  difficulty;  some 
do  not. 

SUFFRAGE  NOT  FOR  INDIGENT 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Mr.  Tate,  in  my  State  of  New  Jersey,  we  have  an  ancient 
provision  on  the  books  which  deprives  paupers,  in  the  old  sense  of 
the  word,  of  a  vote  in  any  election.  Do  you  happen  to  know  how  many 
States  of  the  Union  have  a  sunilar  regulation  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  No  ;  I  do  not.  Of  course  a  good  many  of  the  States  have 
a  poll-tax  provision  that  may  work  the  same  result. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Of  course  the  poll-tax  provision  would  make  the  pay- 
ment of  a  poll  tax  a  requirement  for  voting,  but  that  would  not  have 
anything  to  do  with  being  a  pauper,  because  someone  could  hand  him 
the  amount  of  the  poll  tax  and  he,  in  turn,  would  pay  it.  That  would 
not  change  his  situation  in  the  community. 

Mr.  Tate.  It  might  or  might  not.  I  mean  if  he  did  not  have  it  and 
no  person  handed  him  the  money,  obviously  he  could  not  vote.  If  he 
had  the  money,  he  could. 

Mr.  Osmers.  We  have  repealed  in  New  Jersey  our  poll  tax  and  left 
the  other  requirement.  Of  course,  it  is  not  enforced.  The  Tax  Com- 
missioner has  investigated  the  subject  in  New  Jersey  and  recommended 
that  it  should  be  enforced,  and  it  created  a  great  storm,  as  you  can 
imagine.  But  what  would  your  feeling  be  toward  that  type  of 
statutory  limitation  on  voting. 

Mr.  Tate.  I  would  be  unsympathetic  with  a  provision  that  you 
could  not  vote  if  you  were  a  pauper. 

Mr.  OsMEus.  You  would  be  unsympathetic  to  such  a  provision  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes. 

Mr.  Osjiers.  That  is  my  feeling,  too.  I  think  it  should  be  taken 
off  the  books. 

The  Chairman.  These  settlement  laws  have  highlighted  for  us 
the  attitude  of  the  various  States  toward  destitute  citizens  of  sister 
States.  I  know  that  you  are  familiar  with  the  provision  in  the  Articles 
of  Confederation  of  1777,  which  stated  : 

The  better  to  secure  and  perpetuate  mutual  friendship  and  intercourse  among 
the  people  of  the  different  States  in  this  Union,  the  free  inhabitants  of  each  of 
these  States — paupers,  vagabonds,  and  fugitives  from  justice — shall  be  entitled  to 
all  privileges  and  immunities  of  free  citizens  in  the  several  States ;  and  the  people 
of  each  State  shall  have  free  ingress  and  egress  to  and  from  any  other  State. 

That  provision,  fortunately,  was  rewritten  before  it  was  inserted 
into  our  present  Constitution.  But  the  States  themselves  have  erected 
the  wall  barring  interstate  movement  of  destitute  folks  in  many  in- 
stances through  the  power  of  the  States  to  exclude  or  expel.     I  wish 


3538 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


you  would  discuss  those  powers  of  the  States  more  fully  and  highlight 
the  Constitutional  aspect  involved.  ,     ■,       ^ 

Mr.  Tate.  Well,  I  think  it  is  interesting  to  refer  to  the  legal  con- 
federation. I  believe  that  it  was  in  the  Wheeler  case^  the  case  of 
United  States  v.  Wheeler,  that  Chief  Justice  White  by  dictum  indi- 
cated that  article  IV,  section  2,  the  privileges  and  immunities  clause, 
was  pretty  much  a  carry-over  provision,  and  that  you  could  look  to 
that  provision  for  the  meaning  of  the  privileges  and  immunities 
clause.  However,  I  do  not  believe  we  should  admit  that  as  a  flat 
decision.    This  section  should  be  considered  in  connection  with  other 


decision  on  it,  because  there  has  been  a  paucity  of  decisions  in  this 
type  of  cases.  Orders  of  expulsion,  I  think,  have  been  sustained. 
The  privileges  and  immunities  clause,  I  think,  has  been  somewhat 
broadened  in  recent  years.  The  Hagu^  case  indicated  a  broadening 
so  far  as  privileges  and  immunities  are  concerned,  followed  by  retrac- 
tions at  the  last  term  to  some  degree.  I  think  you  will  find  the 
decision  in  those  cases  in  balance  with  this  historical  basis  of  settle- 
ment that  went  back  to  our  Constitution,  and  also  appearing  in  the 
laws  of  England,  and  is  to  be  weighed  against  the  emergency  need 
under  which  the  State  is  acting. 

MIGRANTS  LIVE  IN  LEGAL  LIMBO 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Tate,  with  the  settlement  laws  as  they  are,  is 
it  possible  for  a  man  to  exist  in  legal  limbo — that  is,  to  lose  his  settle- 
ment in  one  State  before  he  has  acquired  it  in  another.  That  makes 
his  status  as  a  citizen  of  a  State  meaningless,  and  he  has  to  fall  back 
on  his  dual  citizenship  as  a  citizen  of  the  United  States.  Is  that 
correct  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Many  witnesses  before  this  committee  have  reconi- 
mended  that  a  new  category  be  included  under  the  Social  Security 
Act  to  provide  for  some  form  of  relief,  either  by  grants-in-aid  to  the 
States  or  by  a  direct  relief  program,  to  take  care  not  only  of  those 
people  who  have  no  State  responsible  for  them,  but  for  all  relief 
cases.     I  believe  you  have  covered  that. 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  that  is  highly  desirable. 

The  Chairman.  Assuming  that  Congress  decides  to  do  something 
about  it,  what  would  you  suggest  as  a  workable  solution  of  this 
problem  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  As  I  indicated  in  my  previous  remarks,  I  think  you 
should  have  a  general  relief  category,  and  that  you  should  have  as 
a  condition  to  the  grants  to  States  the  abolition  in  large  part  of  resi- 
dence restrictions.  Then,  as  Congressman  Sparkman  indicated  a 
while  ago,  in  order  to  help  States  that  are  not  in  a  financial  condition 
to  carry  it  out,  there  should  be  some  variable  grants. 

The  Chairman.  In  other  words,  it  does  not  help  the  morale  of  this 
country   when  you  have  old  people   in  Alabama   and   Mississippi 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3539 

receiving  $10  or  $9  per  month,  while  in  another  State  they  are 
receiving  $30  per  month.  The  old  people  in  States  where  they  are 
getting  a  lesser  amount  are  just  as  precious  as  those  living  in  States 
where  they  are  getting  a  larger  amount? 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes,  sir ;  that  is  true. 

The  Chairman.  And  I  understand  you  have  been  working  toward 
that  end. 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Some  States  can  afford  a  larger  amount  and  some  other 
States  cannot.    What  is  the  basis? 

STATU  INCOME  CORRELATED  TO  PAYMENTS 

Mr.  Tate.  It  is  very  interesting  to  me  in  comparing  the  figures  to 
note  the  average  per  capita  income  of  the  State  as  compared  with  the 
average  amount  of  the  grants.  You  will  find  a  close  correlation  there. 
In  some  States  where  they  have  old-age  assistance,  they  will  give  what 
they  can.  For  instance,  you  will  find  that  States  like  New  York, 
where  they  have  a  relatively  high  per  capita  income,  the  grants  are 
high,  while  in  States  like  Mississippi,  with  a  relatively  low  per  capita 
income,  the  grants  are  low.  I  think  you  would  have  to  have  some 
relation  to  the  average  per  capita  income  in  working  out  the  variable 
grants. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Is  that  true  of  all  the  States  ? 

Mr.  Tate,  I  do  not  say  it  is  true  of  all  the  States,  but  I  think  it  is 
generally  true  of  the  States. 

Miss  HoET.  The  District  of  Columbia  and  the  two  Territories 
would  be  the  es;ceptions.  It  would  not  be  true  of  the  District  of 
Columbia,  Hawaii,  and  Alaska. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  think  one  witness  this  morning  disagreed  very 
emphatically  on  that  particular  point. 

Miss  HoEY.  Did  he  recommend  a  substitute  for  it? 

Mr.  Curtis.  No  ;  he  made  no  attempt  to  do  that. 

Miss  HoEY.  I  think  this  is  what  he  referred  to :  If  you  compare  the 
per  capita  income  of  the  State  to  the  Federal  per  capita  income,  we 
may  have  a  basis  for  granting  Government  funds  to  the  States,  but 
there  is  nothing  that  has  been  worked  out  as  a  basis  of  distribution 
of  funds  from  the  State  to  the  local  communities  in  the  States.  You 
cannot  apply  the  per  capita  income  rule  to  a  county  or  local  sub- 
division. We  have  recommended  that  the  need  in  the  county  deter- 
mine the  distribution  by  the  State  level  down  to  the  county. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  believe  it  should  be  based  on  ability  to  pay? 
I  have  a  map  here — is  that  from  you  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  According  to  this  map,  the  State  of  Florida  grants  in 
relief  payments  $6.83.  (See  p.  3540.)  I  do  not  know  what  that 
is.  In  South  Dakota  the  payments  are  $13.81.  Now,  is  Florida's 
ability  to  pay  only  half  that  of  South  Dakota  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  I  was  not  speaking  of  relief  payments.  I  do  not  know 
what  that  is.     I  was  speaking,  by  and  large,  of  old-age  assistance. 

Mr.  Curtis.  For  old-age  assistance,  in  this  particular  instance,  the 
amount  is  $11.81  for  Florida,  and  $17.28  for  South  Dakota. 

260370— 41— pt.  9 6 


3540 


[Nl'ERSTATE  MIGRATION 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3541 

Mr.  Tate.  I  do  not  know,  offhand,  what  the  average  per  capita 
income  of  those  States  is.  It  may  be  that  it  deviates  from  that  factor. 
There  are  a  number  of  instances  in  which  it  does  deviate.  But  gen- 
erally it  follows  pretty  well  down  that  line  of  correlation. 

Miss  HoET.  We  are  suggesting  this  simply  as  an  approach  to  the 
best  way  to  effect  the  distribution  of  Federal  funds  to  the  States.  We 
are  not  recommending  it  as  something  absolute,  but  it  is  a  method  by 
which  some  other  things  are  being  done.  There  are  many  things  to  be 
considered  as,  for  instance,  the  need  of  the  State. 

Mr.  Curtis.  According  to  this  map,  it  would  indicate  that  California 
has  two  and  a  half  times  the  ability  to  spend  for  relief  that  Texas 
has.  I  seriously  doubt  that,  and  I  do  not  think  the  payments  being 
made  now  indicate  their  relative  ability  to  pay. 

RELATIVE  STATE  TAX  LEVIES 

Miss  HoEY.  If  we  are  talking  about  the  revenue-raising  capacity  of 
the  State  of  Texas,  of  course,  Texas  has  a  great  deal  of  natural  wealth 
which  is  either  not  taxed  or  taxed  in  a  very  limited  way. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Who  determines  whether  it  is  to  be  taxed,  or  not? 

Miss  HoEY.  The  legislature  of  the  State.  If  you  are  comparing  the 
wealth  of  those  States,  it  may  well  be  that  the  natural  resources  are 
being  compared.  In  one  instance  you  have  a  State  taxing  them  very 
high,  while  another  State  is  taxing  them  very  low.  That  is  another 
element  you  must  take  into  consideration  in  determining  whether  they 
have  the  ability  to  pay. 

The  Chairman.  That  depends  on  what  the  respective  legislatures 
will  appropriate  for  this  purpose. 

Miss  Hoey.  Yes,  sir.  Texas  is  very  liberal  in  its  treatment  of  re- 
cipients of  old-age  assistance,  but  if  you  go  to  the  other  programs, 
you  will  find  that  they  have  no  children's  program  or  general  relief 
program.  However,  they  have  appropriated  at  each  session  large 
amounts  for  the  care  of  the  aged. 

Mr.  Parsons.  The  Legislature  of  the  State  of  Illinois  levies  a  sales 
tax  of  3  percent.  One  percent  goes  directly  to  relief,  with  some  addi- 
tional appropriations  for  that  purpose.  That  goes  to  citizens  of  the 
State  of  Illinois.  That  1  percent  amounts  to  between  $3,000,000  and 
$4,000,000  per  month.  Another  cent  goes  to  the  old-age  assistance 
contrilDution.  The  other  goes  into  State  funds,  as  general  revenues. 
Then  we  have  a  gas  tax  for  local  purposes,  which  is  subdivided  back 
among  the  local  units  of  government.  We  have  taken  off  the  State 
property  tax,  both  real  and  personal.  That  tax  has  been  taken  off  of 
both  real  and  personal  property,  but  we  have  revenue  derived  from 
the  sales  tax  that  amounts  to  three  times,  in  the  course  of  a  year, 
the  annual  property  tax.  We  are  getting  that  from  those  who  have 
money  to  spend. 

Miss  HoEY.  Illinois  is  a  good  illustration  that  it  does  not  depend 
on  the  capacity  of  the  State  to  finance  its  program.  They  have  no 
children's  program  in  any  way  as  a  part  of  the  Federal  program.  The 
children's  program  there  has  been  court-administered,  and  the  State 
has  brought  that  matter  into  court. 


QC42  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Sparkman.  As  I  see  the  program  you  suggest,  these  grants 
would  not  be  based  upon  a  single  factor,  such  as  the  amount  the  State 
is  now  paying,  or  even  upon  the  amount  of  taxes,  or  the  method  by 
which  the  taxes  are  levied,  but  there  would  have  to  be  worked  up  some 
formula  which  would  determine  what  a  particular  State  would  receive 
in  coimection  with  any  particular  program. 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tate.  That  is  correct;  but  I  do  not  want  to  leave  the  impression 
here  that  we  have  a  definite  formula. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  We  recognize  that. 

Lest  there  be  some  misunderstanding,  if  I  understood  it  correctly 
a  while  ago,  Mr.  Curtis  said  some  gentleman  recoimnended  that  these 
grants  be  variable  grants.  I  do  not  understand  that  statement  was 
made  by  Mr.  Hoehler.  He  recommended  grants,  but  it  was  Mr. 
Gallagher  who  referred  to  variable  grants. 

CONSTITUTIONALITY  OF  MIGRANT  EXCLUSION 

I  would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Tate  one  more  question.  _  He  is  a  lawyer 
who  has  given  a  great  deal  of  thought  to  this  subject,  and  here  is 
something  that  is  running  through  my  mind  as  a  lawyer,  and  that 
is  the  legal  right  of  any  State  under  the  Constitution  to  keep  a  person 
out  of  the  State  or,  if  the  person  is  within  the  State,  to  put  him  out, 
simply  because  of  the  fact  that  he  may  happen  to  be  destitute. 

Mr.  Tate.  I  do  not  believe  I  can  give  a  categorical  answer  to  that 
question.  I  would  hate  to  assume  that  a  State  has  that  authority, 
but,  on  the  other  hand,  I  would  not  feel  at  all  sure  that  it  does  not 
have  that  authority.  Clearly,  the  privilege  of  moving  about  is  a 
privilege  guaranteed  by  the  Constitution,  and  any  restriction  of  that 
has  to  be  on  a  justifiable  basis. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Could  it  be  justified  by  anything  other  than  the 
police  power  of  the  State? 

Mr.  Tate.  No,  sir;  I  think  not. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  It  would  have  to  come  under  the  police  power  of 
the  State? 

Mr.  Tate.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  you  believe  that  a  person's  condition  of  poverty 
would  come  within  the  police  power  of  the  State  ? 

Mr.  Tate.  Personally,  I  do  not  think  so.  I  think  it  would  have  to 
be  a  case  of  vital  necessity  to  justify  such  restrictive  action  by  the 
State,  and  I  do  not  believe  that  the  mere  fact  of  indigency  presents 
a  question  that  would  justify  such  restrictive  action  on  the  part  of 
the  State. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  do  you  think  about  it,  Miss  Hoey  ? 

Miss  HoEY.  I  feel  very  strongly  on  that.  I  have  known  of  an 
instance  where  a  person  born  in  a  State  and  who  came  back  to  the 
State  where  he  was  born,  was  prohibited  from  remaining  in  the  State. 
It  does  not  mean  that  the  State  might  not  refuse  him  relief  in  the 
State,  but  certainly  it  should  not  refuse  domicile  or  residence  to  one 
born  in  the  State.     Of  course,  I  am  not  a  lawyer,  but  that  is  my  view. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  The  matter  of  giving  relief  and  the  matter  of 
allowing  residence  or  domicile  are  entirely  distinct  things. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3543 

NATIVE  OF   STATE  "dEPORTEd"   TO   PHILIPPINES 

Miss  HoEY.  Yes,  sir.  I  know  that  a  person  born  in  one  of  the 
States  was  sent  back  from  the  Philippines,  and  he  was  sent  back  by 
that  State  to  the  Philippines,  although  he  was  born  within  the  State. 
May  I  clarify  one  thing :  Mr.  Tate  and  I  were  recommending  a  fourth 
category,  but  that  was  not  in  lieu  of  a  work  program.  It  would  be 
supplementary  to  and  not  a  substitute  for  the  work  progi-am. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  Texas  paid  relatively 
high  old-age  pensions. 

Miss  HoEY.  No,  sir ;  they  have  been  liberal  in  the  number  of  persons 
who  would  be  eligible  for  old-age  assistance.  In  other  words,  they 
have  been  pretty  generous  as  compared  with  some  other  States  as  to 
the  number  who  would  be  eligible  for  old-age  assistance.  I  think 
it  is  true  that  60  percent  of  the  aged  people  in  Texas  would  be 
eligible  under  their  law. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Texas  ranks  first  in  mineral  wealth,  and  first  in  agri- 
culture. A  good  percentage  of  the  farm  payments  made  by  the 
United  States  Government  goes  to  Texas.  There  are  a  number  of 
military  establishments  down  there,  and  they  have  a  large  seagoing 
commerce.  Yet,  their  payments  are  only  half  the  amount  of  pay- 
ments made  by  some  other  States.  For  instance,  my  own  State  of 
Nebraska  has  only  one  industry,  that  of  agriculture.  There  are  no 
minerals  in  the  State,  but,  although  without  a  good  crop  for  7  years, 
Nebraska  pays  much  larger  amounts  per  month  for  this  sort  of 
assistance  than  Texas  does. 

Miss  HoEY.  It  is  not  only  ability  but  the  willingness  of  the  State 
to  raise  revenue  that  must  be  considered.  It  is  not  what  they  actually 
pay. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  recommend  a  variable  formula  for  grants  of 
money  to  the  States? 

Mis  HoEY.  If  you  take  the  economies  of  some  of  the  States,  Ne- 
braska, or  some  of  the  Southern  States,  your  index  would  show  that 
many  of  them  are  relatively  poor  States,  or  much  poorer  than  certain 
other  States.  There  is  to  be  considered  the  question  of  the  ability 
or  willingness  to  levy  taxes,  and,  in  some  of  them,  I  think  any  reason- 
able person  would  agree  that  they  could  not  raise  enough  revenue 
to  finance  the  necessary  Government  expenditures  in  an  adequate  relief 
program. 

NO  formula  for  variable  grants 

Mr.  Curtis.  If  you  have  a  variable  formula,  I  do  not  see  how  you 
will  get  away  from  this  willingness  to  receive  Federal  money. 

Miss  Hoey.  That,  I  think,  would  be  one  condition  you  would  have 
to  put  in  the  Federal  law.  We  have  no  formula  worked  out,  and 
it  will  have  to  be  based  on  objective  standards  which  will  have  to  be 
developed.  The  basis  for  grants  has  been  the  per  capita  income  of 
the  State  as  compared  with  the  per  capita  income  of  the  country, 
or  the  Federal  per  capita  income.  That  does  not  give  the  basis  of 
distribution  by  the  States  to  the  counties  and  local  subdivisions. 


3544  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Sparkman.  The  basis  should  be  the  willingness  as  well  as  the 
ability  to  pay.  There  should  be  the  willingness  to  see  that  it  is 
appropriated. 

Miss  HoET.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  There  should  be  the  exercise  of  willingness  in  line 
with  ability. 

Miss  HoEY.  That  is  true. 

The  Chairman.  If  there  is  nothing  further,  we  thank  you 
very  much  for  your  statements.  You  have  made  a  very  valuable 
contribution  to  our  discussion. 

TESTIMONY  OF  GLENN  E.  JACKSON,  DIRECTOR  OF  PUBLIC  ASSIST- 
ANCE,  NEW  YORK  STATE  DEPARTMENT  OF  SOCIAL  WELFARE 

Mr.  Parsons  Please  state  your  name,  address,  and  the  organization 
you  represent. 

Mr.  Jackson.  My  name  is  Glenn  E.  Jackson,  and  I  am  the  director 
of  public  assistance  of  the  New  York  State  Department  of  Social 
Welfare.     My  address  is  Albany,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  have  been  here  during  the  hearings  and  heard 
the  discussion  this  morning  in  reference  to  the  settlement  laws.  We 
have  had  a  number  of  witnesses  from  all  over  the  country,  especially 
at  the  various  places  where  we  have  conducted  hearings,  discuss  that 
question.  I  would  like  to  have  you  take  a  few  minutes  to  give  us 
your  idea  of  what  you  have  found  in  connection  with  j^our  work  in 
the  New  York  State  Department  of  Social  Welfare  and  from  your 
study  of  the  settlement  laws. 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  understood  that  the  committee  wished,  perhaps, 
that  I  make  a  summary  of  today's  evidence,  so  far  as  I  would  agree 
with  it,  and  then  point  out  the  places  that  I  might  disagree  with. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Yes.  You  may  discuss  the  angles  presented  this 
morning  and  this  afternoon,  conimenting  upon  them  and  giving  us 
the  result  of  your  own  studies. 

RECOMMENDS  COMMISSION  TO  STUDY  MIGRATION 

Mr,  Jackson.  First,  may  I  express  the  honest  and  sincere  apprecia- 
tion by  our  State  of  the  fact  that  this  committee  is  doing  this  work, 
because  it  will  make  a  gi'eat  contribution  to  the  study  which  we 
launched  in  our  State  late  this  summer.  We  were  happy  to  learn  of 
the  hearings  by  this  committee,  because  they  will  save  us  a  great  deal 
of  original  work,  which  could  not  have  been  accomplished  nearly 
so  well  by  us  acting  independently.  I  want  to  add  to  that  our  keen 
desire  that  somehow  the  work  of  this  committee  will  be  capitalized, 
and  that  it  will  not  be  permitted  to  pass  even  by  so  valuable  a  thing 
as  a  report.  I  think  we  would  like  to  endorse  the  idea  that  there 
be  established  in  the  Federal  Government  a  commission  dealing 
with  the  problem  that  you  are  studying.  We  feel  that  there  should 
be  a  central  reservoir  of  information  and  counsel  to  which  organiza- 
tions dealing  with  these  problems  may  turn  for  advice  and  assistance, 

Mr.  Parsons.  Would  you  suggest  that  probably  it  should  be  under 
the  Social  Security  program? 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3545 

Mr.  Jackson.  We  do  not  suggest  where  it  should  be,  but  it  should 
be  available  in  some  suitable  place.  It  would  naturally  be  under  some 
department  of  the  Government. 

The  Chairman.  We  have  been  thinking  about  that.  We  thought 
that  the  recommendation  of  a  department  with  radical  power  in  this 
organization  might  cause  us  to  run  into  some  difficulty.  However, 
if  we  should  put  it  in  the  Department  of  Agriculture,  the  Department 
of  Labor,  or  the  Social  Security  Board,  we  should  have  a  representa- 
tive from  each  of  those  departments  to  exchange  information  related 
to  this  subject. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes,  sir.  That  is  the  reason  I  would  not  too  quickly 
accept  the  suggestion  as  to  the  best  place  for  it.  It  might  be  put  in 
one  of  those  departments,  or  it  might  be  separate  from  each  one. 
The  administration  of  the  program  would  fall  naturally  in  one  of  the 
three  departments  you  mention. 

Now,  you  have  asked  that  I  attempt  a  summary  of  today's  evidence. 

summary  of  preceding  testimony 

Any  summary  or  review  will  appear  to  be  unfair  to  much  very 
valuable  material  that  has  been  presented  by  the  witnesses.  More- 
over, the  sunmiary  generally  reflects  the  bias  of  the  reviewer. 
Granted  these  hazards,  I  shall  attempt  the  summary  you  have 
requested  me  to  make. 

The  statements  made  today  seem  to  sum  up  to  three  basic  points. 
First,  all  of  the  statements  agree  that  migration  is  a  normal  thing, 
and  is  connected  with  all  phases  of  economic  life.  It  is  something 
that  is  engaged  in  generally  by  normal  people.  Further,  this  general 
condition  of  normal  migration  appears  now  to  be  further  stimulated 
by  the  defense  program.  Therefore,  this  aggravated  problem  of 
normal,  plus  the  stimulated  migration,  should  be  regarded  as  one 
requiring  immediate  and  intelligent  solution  on  a  national  plane. 

In  the  second  place,  while  most  of  this  migration  results  favorably, 
both  to  the  migrant  and  to  the  economy  of  the  community  to  which 
the  migrant  comes,  some  of  it  results  in  failure.  Some  failure  is 
inevitable,  even  alongside  a  very  large  percentage  of  success.  It  is 
with  the  failure  that  I  propose  to  deal  here.  I  am  reminded  to  say 
here  that,  of  course,  some  of  the  bitter  must  go  along  with  the  better. 

We  are  very  much  interested  in  the  attempt  to  find  a  practical 
solution  of  the  problem.  In  New  York  State,  we  have  one  of  those 
peculiar  settlement  laws,  but  we  do  have  provision  that  unsettled 
people  shall  be  charged  to  the  State.  Since  1937,  under  our  relief 
act,  any  unsettled  person  has  been  a  100-percent  charge  against  the 
State.  Because  of  the  working  of  our  resettlement  law,  that  has 
become  an  increasing  expense  to  the  State.  We  would  join  in  general 
agreement  with  what  seems  to  be  the  voice  of  these  witnesses  that 
the  solution  lies  with  the  Federal  Government.  We  thoroughly 
agree  that  no  one  State  can  cope  with  this  problem. 


QK^Q  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

WOULD  AMEND  SOCIAL  SEOURITT  ACT 

We  would  agree  that  the  Social  Security  Act  should  be  amended 
so  as  to  provide  grants-in-aid  to  States  for  general  relief  for  needy 
residents  and  migrants,  and  that  Federal  funds  for  that  purpose  on 
a  50  percent  matching  basis  should  be  made  available.  As  the  con- 
ditions under  which  these  funds  would  be  granted,  the  States  should 
be  required  to  submit  a  plan  for  projects,  as  in  the  case  of  the  cate- 
gories now  operative  under  the  Social  Security  Act.  The  respon- 
sibility for  the  administration  and  supervision  of  the  program  should 
be  in  the  same  respective  agencies  as  the  other  assistance  programs. 
That  is  to  say,  all  Federal  grants-in-aid  should  be  conditioned,  in 
addition  to  other  requirements,  upon  the  States'  agreement  to  extend 
services  to  all  persons  living  in  the  State,  without  regard  to  length 
of  residence. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Would  you  recommend  the  abolition  of  all  settlement 
laws  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  In  the  form  in  which  the  question  comes,  it  is  some- 
what academic.  It  would  be  difficult  to  attempt  to  liquidate  all  the 
settlement  laws.  As  a  condition  to  the  grant,  I  would  provide  that 
the  State  must  set  up  a  provision  under  which  it  would  provide 
general  relief  for  all  persons,  and  that  would  of  itself,  in  effect, 
liquidate  those  settlement  laws. 

If  they  desired  to  be  retained  on  the  statute,  it  would  have  to  be 
for  other  purposes. 

ISSUES  RAISED  BY  WITNESSES 

May  I  make  one  or  two  comments  on  points  which  seemed  to  be 
issues  developed  between  the  witnesses  ? 

In  respect  to  variable  grants,  our  State  would  be  inclined  not  to 
favor  them.  I  am  speaking  probably  out  of  our  own  experience  in 
New  York  State. 

Before  I  came  into  my  present  position  I  was  Assistant  State 
Director  of  the  Emergency  Relief  Administration,  which  had  full 
power  to  make  variable  grants  to  counties  and  cities  where  we  believed 
that  they  needed  special  consideration. 

Mr.  Parsons.  For  transients? 

Mr.  Jackson.  No,  for  general  relief.  That  was  availed  of  in  about 
six  instances. 

I  think  it  is  fair  to  say  that  did  not  work  out  well.  That  is  to 
say,  we  came  to  feel  that  there  was  no  way  to  measure  the  locality's 
ability  to  finance  relief. 

There  is  in  the  present  State  law  a  provision  that  the  State  depart- 
ment may  make  a  variable  grant  if  it  finds  a  locality  in  special  need. 
It  has  never  availed  itself  of  that  provision,  and  I  think  I  speak  the 
opinion  of  the  Department  when  I  say  it  is  very  reluctant  to  avail 
itself  of  that  provision. 

Furthermore,  in  respect  to  that,  we  have  made  some  careful  studies 
of  the  reasons  for  higher  grants  in  one  locality  over  another,  and  they 
came  to  feel  that  it  is  a  combination  of  complicated  factors  in  which 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3547 

it  can  be  assumed  that  the  dominant  one  is  ability  to  pay.  After 
all,  we  believe  that  there  are  other  strong  factors,  such  as  the  attitude 
toward  relief,  and  the  size  of  the  case  load,  the  vigorousness  or  lack 
of  vigorousness  of  the  W.  P.  A.  program,  and  many  other  factors. 
We  have  considered  about  eight  of  them. 

The  Chaikman.  Ability  to  pay  is  a  fluctuating  proposition,  is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  Exactly  so. 

While  at  one  time  we  did  join  with  those  who  thought  they  could 
apply  that  formula  to  a  particular  county,  and  asked  the  board  to 
avail  themselves  of  that  rule,  we  have  not  found  that  formula. 

So  we  would  feel  that  the  present  average  grants  referred  to  by  the 
Congi-essman  in  respect  to  some  States  do  not  appear  to  us  to  reflect 
basic  ability  to  pay,  but  do  reflect  some  other  important  factors. 

We  note,  for  instance,  the  comparison  between  the  relatively  high 
grants  in  some  States  for  old-age  assistance  compared  with  general 
relief,  and  it  must  be  assumed  that  the  degree  of  reimbursement,  the 
general  appeal  of  the  program,  and  so  forth,  are  more  effective  than 
ability  to  support  the  total  relief  structure. 

WOULD  CONTINUE  GENERAL  RELIEF  PROGRAM 

One  other  comment  with  respect  to  what  some  of  the  witnesses  this 
forenoon  said  as  to  whether,  in  our  experience  and  opinion,  the  pros- 
perity of  national  defense  will  liquidate  in  large  part  our  relief  rolls, 
first  of  all,  it  seems  rather  obvious  that  it  cannot  liquidate  all  of  the 
categories.  In  respect  to  general  relief,  which,  in  our  State,  is  the 
largest  complete  program,  we  have  just  completed  a  census  of  our 
rolls  and  find  that  about  60  percent  of  our  present  rolls  are  unemploy- 
able and  that  that  percentage  is  increasing.  It  is  perfectly  natural 
that  that  is  so. 

Therefore,  we  would  feel  that  it  is  highly  important  that  there  be 
a  continued  general  relief  program,  that  if  we  are  to  solve  this  question 
of  migration  it  ought  to  be  made  a  part  of  the  general  relief  program, 
with  the  State  and  Federal  agencies  sharing  the  burden. 

That  summarizes  the  notes  I  have  made  as  to  the  points  which  are 
the  issues  before  the  committee. 

The  Chairman.  You  have  given  us  a  very  fine  statement  and  we 
appreciate  your  coming  here,  and  I  know  the  statement  you  have 
given  us  will  be  valuable  to  us. 

I  will  say  that  we  will  have  our  record  open  until  the  12th  of  Decem- 
ber, and  if  anything  else  occurs  to  you  which  you  would  like  to  have 
made  a  part  of  your  statement,  we  will  be  glad  to  put  it  into  the  record, 
if  you  will  send  it  to  the  committee. 

Mr.  Parsons.  If  you  have  a  paper  you  want  to  file  we  will  be  glad 
to  have  that. 

Mv.  Sp  \RKMAN.  I  listened  with  much  interest  to  your  discussion  of 
the  question  of  variable  grants. 

I  think  that  you  will  admit  that  probably  there  would  be  a  difference 
as  among  the  States  from  that  prevailing  as  among  the  various  units 
in  the  same  State. 


3548  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

In  other  words,  where  you  might  be  able  to  determine  the  ability 
of  some  community  within  your  State  as  compared  to  other  com- 
munities in  the  same  State,  that  problem  might  not  be  so  complex 
when  it  comes  to  determining  the  ability  of  a  State  to  pay. 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  pose  as  no  expert,  but  I  do  not  happen  to  see  the 
reason  why  it  is  easier  to  determine  a  State's  ability  to  pay. 

I  am  one  of  those  who  has  to  appear  before  the  State  legislature 
when  it  comes  time  to  provide  funds  for  relief,  and  I  know  of  no 
formula  on  which  you  could  fall  back  to  determine  just  how  much  a 
State  could  afford  for  the  assistance  of  its  citizens.  Such  a  formula 
might  be  made  available. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  know  there  is  the  same  question  in  connection 
with  Federal  legislation.  In  1936,  in  connection  with  the  1936 
Hayden-Cartwright  Act  providing  for  Federal  aid  for  road  construc- 
tion, a  formula  was  laid  down,  with  a  provision  that  after  a  State 
had  done  all  that  it  could  do  and  the  Secretary  of  Agriculture  had 
so  determined,  and  a  part  of  its  funds  had  been  unmatched,  those 
funds  could  be  allocated  without  matching. 

Mr.  Jackson.  If  it  was  ever  necessary  to  determine  variable  grants 
to  certain  States,  if  it  is  possible,  it  should  be  disconnected  from  the 
basic  scheme  relating  to  the  Social  Security  Act  and  some  other  means 
found. 

This  has  been  found  to  be  possible  on  a  State-wide  basis,  that  is 
to  say,  where  we  have  found  a  community  where  considered  judg- 
ment showed  they  were  practically  bankrupt,  there  were  other  means 
of  assisting  needy  people  than  that,  but  we  have  our  reimbursement 
features.  We  have  other  programs,  like  farm  security.  We  have 
a  rural  rehabilitation  corporation  within  our  State.  We  took  steps 
in  the  State  to  see  what  could  be  done  in  terms  of  resettlement,  and 
so  forth,  and  those  do  become  variable,  without  waiving  the  basic 
provision. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  are  aware  that  the  Social  Security  Board  has, 
in  several  of  its  annual  reports,  recommended  that  the  grants  for 
the  three  categories  already  in  existence  be  changed  to  a  fixed  basis? 

Mr.  Jackson.  That  is  right,  but  our  State  has  never  favored  availing 
themselves  of  that  rule. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  our  hearings  it  has  been  brought  out  that  there 
are  a  number  of  States  in  the  United  States  that  have  an  excessive 
birth  rate,  running  as  high  as  130  percent  replacement,  whereas  a 
great  many  other  States  run  as  low  as  80  percent.  Naturally,  there 
must  be  migration  from  the  higher  to  the  lower  birth-rate  areas. 

Mr.  Jackson.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  remember  at  our  hearings  in  New  York  some 
gentleman,  I  believe  the  director  of  public  assistance  in  one  of  the 
New  England  States,  said :  "If  my  State  gets  mules  from  your  State 
we  pay  you  for  raising  those  mules,  but  if  your  children  come  to  live 
in  our  State  and  are  educated  in  your  State,  we  pay  you  nothing 
for  them."  Do  you  not  think  that  is  an  argument  for  variable  grants 
to  those  areas  that  are  serving,  as  one  witness  said  to  us,  as  the  seed 
pods  of  the  Nation  ? 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3549 

VARIABLE  GRANT  T-ORMIILA  UNDISCOVERED 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  think  there  are  many  arguments  in  favor  of  vari- 
able grants,  and  wlien  they  get  through  we  would  feel  that  just  as 
the  local  people  not  on  relief  must  live  by  the  standards  and  under 
the  general  conditions  of  the  community,  so  must  other  citizens  who 
live  there,  and  find  the  need  for  relief,  and  choose  that  as  their 
residence,  rely  upon  their  State  and  the  citizens  of  the  State  to 
supply  that  need  as  they  can  afford  it,  and  it  may  be  that  we  would 
get  on  a  matching  basis  after  that.  But  so  far  as  a  variable  basis 
is  concerned,  any  formula  would  be  highly  indirect,  and  is  as  yet 
undiscovered. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  If  you  follow  your  argument  to  its  logical  conclu- 
sion, i  do  not  see  any  argument  for  the  Federal  Government  to  par- 
ticipate. You  say  it  is  impossible  to  determine  that  as  between 
citizens  in  the  same  community.  Then  why  should  the  Federal  Govern- 
ment participate? 

Mr.  Jackson.  Because  all  levels  of  Government  should  participate 
to  a  degree.  For  instance,  this  participation  in  the  migratory  prob- 
lem is  a  national  participation,  since  the  localities  could  not  supply 
all  the  funds.  The  reasons  have  been  placed  before  you  on  many 
occasions  in  terms  of  taxing  ability,  but  with  the  help  of  the  States, 
and  we  think,  in  our  opinion,  except  in  cases  of  widespread  disaster, 
that  generally  the  matching  basis,  in  the  long  run,  works  out  better. 

The  Chairman.  We  thank  you  very  much  for  your  statement, 
Mr.  Jackson. 

TESTIMONY  OF  ROLAND  LeGRAND  SWEARENGIN, 
WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

The  Chairman.  The  next  witness  is  Mr.  Swearengin,  and  Mr. 
Curtis  will  proceed  with  the  questioning. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  your  name? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  Roland  LeGrand  Swearengin. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  are  you  now  living? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  At  728  Fifth  Street  NIV.,  Washington. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  were  you  bom? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  In  Bath  County,  Va.,  near  Millboro. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Are  you  married? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  was  your  wife  born? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  In  Bath  County,  Va. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Is  this  your  first  marriage? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  My  second  marriage. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Is  your  first  wife  living? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  No,  sir ;  she  is  dead.     She  died  of  pneumonia. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  many  children  have  you? 

Mr,  Swearengin.  Two. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Both  of  them  by  your  last  marriage? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  No,  one  by  the  first  marriage  and  one  by  the 
second. 


3550 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  their  age  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  The  boy  by  the  first  marriage  is  7  years  old  past, 
and  the  girl  by  my  second  wife  is  2  years  old. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Have  you  and  Mrs.  Swearengin  lived  in  Bath  County 
most  of  your  lives,  in  Millboro? 

BECAME  ROVING  PLASTERER 

Mr.  Swearengin.  I  was  born  and  raised  about  seven  miles  from 
Millboro  and  lived  there  until  I  was  about  17,  when  I  left  that 
part  of  the  country  and  went  into  Ohio  and  learned  the  plastering 
trade  at  Marion.  Then  I  traveled  about  over  the  country  until  along 
in  the  latter  part  of  1929,  when  I  came  back  to  Bath  County,  where 
my  folks  were. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  much  education  have  you  had  ? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  One  year  of  high  school. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  much  education  did  your  wife  have? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  She  finished  the  seventh  grade. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  say  you  are  a  plasterer? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  With  how  many  years'  experience? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  About  18  years. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Are  you  a  member  of  a  union  in  Washington? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Can  you  get  any  work? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  Yes;  I  can  get  work;  but  now,  at  the  present 
time,  I  am  not  able  to  work. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  your  disability? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  A  strained  wrist. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Wliat  does  that  develop  into? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  The  doctors  say  that  is  developing  into  arthritis. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  have  you  worked  as  a  plasterer  ? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  I  have  worked  in  27  States,  from  the  New  Eng- 
land States  to  the  southern  States,  and  I  have  worked  as  far  west  as 
Nebraska. 

Mr.  Curtis.  In  what  year  did  you  begin  to  work  as  a  plasterer? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  In  1922. 

Mr.  Curtis.  During  the  years  from  1922  to  1929,  how  long  did  you 
stay  in  a  place,  usually  ? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  Well,  I  was  in  Marion,  Ohio,  I  would  say 
around — of  course,  I  did  not  stay  there  continuously,  but  made  that 
my  headquarters  until  1929.  Of  course,  I  was  not  there  all  the  time. 
I  was  traveling  on  the  road  to  get  jobs,  and  when  I  finished  a  job 
I  always  went  back  to  Marion,  as  I  lived  with  an  aunt  there  and  made 
that  my  headquarters. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Did  you  work  on  dwelling  construction,  or  larger 
construction  ? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  I  have  worked  on  practically  every  type  of  build- 
ing, from  a  one-story  dwelling  house  to  a  50-story  building. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Is  plastering  what  you  call  seasonal  work  ? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  limited  is  it  ? 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3551 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  I  sliould  saj  it  is  very  limited.  If  a  man  gets 
as  much  as  8  months  out  of  the  year  he  has  done  exceedingly  well. 
Most  of  them  run  from  4  to  5  or  6  months. 

Mr.  Curtis.  About  what  was  your  average  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  I  would  say  from  the  time  I  started  to  serve  my 
apprenticeship,  or  my  apprentice  course,  until  around  1930,  I  would 
say  I  got  my  8  months  per  year,  and  from  about  1930  until  about 
1935,  I  imagine,  averaging,  taking  one  year  with  the  other,  I  fell 
down  to  less  than  3  months. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Would  you  say  you  would  average  as  much  as  6  months 
per  year  during  that  time  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Ycs,  I  made  out  fairly  good. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Wliat  were  your  wages  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  I  have  gone  as  high  as  $16  a  day,  but  as  the 
wages  run  now  they  have  run  anywhere  from  $8  to  $12.  I  have 
worked  on  jobs  for  as  low  as  $5. 

MIGRANT  PLASTERERS  AND  CARPENTERS 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  a  great  many  plasterers  find  it  necessary  to  travel 
around  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Yes ;  it  is  very  customary  for  carpenters  to  be 
on  the  road.  Of  course,  there  are  a  few  who  are  lucky  enough  to 
get  into  a  job  that  is  permanent  and  they  do  not  have  to  stay  on 
the  road,  but  there  are  always  plasterers  on  the  road. 

You  take  one  boss,  and  he  does  not  have  enough  steady  work  to 
keep  a  full  force  going,  and  therefore  he  will  take  men  in  transit 
work  until  the  busy  season  is  over,  and  then  they  are  laid  off. 

Mr.  Curtis.  In  some  larger  cities  there  might  be  enough  to  keep 
a  few  plasterers  going  all  the  time,  without  having  to  travel  around ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Yes.  If  you  take  some  cities  with  a  population 
of  100,000,  you  will  find  there  are  some  men  in  those  cities  that  have 
all-the-year-round  jobs. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Your  old  home  in  Virginia  is  no  such  community  as 
that? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  No,  sip. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  big  a  place  is  Millboro,  approximately  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  It  probably  has  a  thousand  inhabitants. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  about  Marion,  Ohio  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  I  think  Marion  runs  about  50,000  population. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  is  your  residence  now  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Well,  I  do  not  guess  I  have  any.  I  travel  around 
over  the  country  until  I  do  not  guess  I  have  a  permanent  residence, 

Mr.  Curtis.  When  did  you  leave  Bath  County,  Va.  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  I  left  there  the  last  time — t  was  there  2  years  ago 
in  August,  a  year  this  past  August.  I  was  back  there  2  years  before, 
a  year  this  coming  Christmas. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  still  consider  it  your  home  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Well,  no;  I  have  not  considered  it  my  home, 
I  would  say,  since  I  left  there  as  a  youngster.  Of  course,  when  I  came 
back  there  in  1939  my  father  was  living  on  a  farm,  but  he  died,  and 


org2  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

the  farm  was  sold  and  my  mother  remarried.  I  have  not  quite  con- 
sidered it  my  home  since  1932. 

Mr.  CuKTis.  How  many  brothers  and  sister  did  you  have? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  My  father  was  married  twice  and  in  the  2  fam- 
ilies there  are  20  of  us  living. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Is  your  mother  living  now  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Yes. 

Mr.  CuKTis.  How  old  a  lady  is  she? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Mother  is  past  56. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Have  you  had  any  work  as  a  plasterer  in  1939  and  1940? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  Yes ;  I  have  had  more  work  in  1939  and  1940  than 
I  have  had  from  1930  to  1939. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  were  you  working  ? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  In  1939  I  worked  at  the  Natural  Bridge  Station, 
in  Mount  Crawford,  Va. ;  in  Staunton,  Va. ;  in  Waynesboro,  Va. ;  in 
Richmond,  and  then  in  Washington. 

Mr.  Curtis.  When  did  you  come  to  Washington  ? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  I  came  here  the  first  day  of  July. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  year? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  This  year. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Why  did  you  come  to  Washington  ? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  I  was  working  on  a  rooming  house  in  Richmond, 
doing  some  repair  work.  I  picked  up  a  copy  of  the  Richmond  Times 
Dispatch  and  saw  an  advertisement  for  plasterers  to  report  at  Four- 
teenth and  L  Streets,  with  tools,  for  6  months'  work. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  did  you  come  here? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  A  friend  of  mine  brought  me  in  his  car. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Did  you  bring  your  family? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  No ;  I  did  not  bring  my  family  then.  I  worked 
here  about  3  weeks. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  got  work  here,  as  advertised  ? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  Yes;  I  got  here  in  the  evening  on  Monday,  and 
went  to  work  on  Tuesday. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  did  they  pay  you  ? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  I  got  a  dollar  an  hour. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  went  to  work  about  the  second  or  third  of  July? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  I  went  to  work  on  the  second. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  long  did  you  work  at  $8  a  day  ? 

Mr.  Savearengin.  I  worked  from  July  until  the  19th  of  September, 
when  I  was  laid  off. 

Mr.  Curtis.  That  particular  job  was  concluded  ? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  No,  that  was  at  Sixteenth  and  L,  and  I  was  trans- 
ferred to  a  job  at  Thirty-ninth  and  Davis  Place,  and  from  there  to 
another  job  off  of  Tunlaw  Road,  and  was  transferred  from  that  one 
to  Hyattsville,  Md.,  and  from  there  back  to  Alexandria,  Va. 

Mr.  Curtis.  All  with  the  same  contractor? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  the  last  job  you  say  ended  on  September  19? 

Mr.  Swearengin.  Yes,  sir ;  I  was  laid  off. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Did  you  have  any  unemployment  compensation  ? 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3553 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Yes ;  I  guess  I  am  entitled  to  unemployment 
compensation,  but  no\N'  I  am  under  a  doctor's  care  and  unable  to 
draw  it. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Why  can  you  not  draw  it  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  You  uiust  be  physically  able  to  work  and  un- 
employed to  draw  unemployment  compensation.  You  cannot  draw 
it  while  under  a  doctor's  care. 

MEDICAL   CARE   PROVIDED 

Mr.  Curtis.  Have  you  any  medical  care  from  any  Federal  health 
institution  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN,  Yes ;  from  George  Washington  Hospital.  I  was 
there  for  3  weeks,  and  the  Health  Security  backed  me  for  my  hospital 
bill. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Has  your  wife  had  any  help  from  the  Public  Health 
authorities. 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Ycs ;  she  goes  to  the  hospital  now. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  did  you  manage  to  keep  your  household  together 
without  any  work? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  The  Travelers'  Aid  has  been  paying  my  rent  and 
giving  me  a  grocery  order  each  week. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  say  your  wife  is  in  the  hospital  now  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  No ;  she  attends  the  hospital. 

Mr.  Curtis.  She  is  being  cared  for  by  the  hospital  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Yes. 

Mr,  Curtis.  Is  the  hospital  paying  for  that  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  No ;  we  have  to  go  to  the  Health  Security  and 
get  a  pass  through  the  Health  Security  for  her  attention  at  the 
hospital,  and  also  for  mine. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  do  you  mean  by  Health  Security  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  That  is  located  at  1823  L  Street. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Your  wife  is  an  expectant  mother? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Curtis.  She  is  receiving  some  medical  aid  that  is  furnished  to 
nonresidents  ? 

Mr,  SwEARENGiN.  Ycs ;  it  is  more  of  a  semimonthly  check-up,  than 
anything  else. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  are  considered  a  nonresident  of  the  District  of 
Columbia  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  you  have  no  other  place  that  you  do  consider  as 
your  residence? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN,  I  do  uot  gucss  Iliave  a  legal  residence, 

Mr,  Curtis.  Is  this  the  first  time  you  ever  had  to  be  concerned 
about  a  residence  or  settlement  ? 

Mr,  SwEARENGiN,  Yes,  sir, 

Mr,  Curtis.  Have  you  ever  had  any  public  assistance  at  any  time 
before  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Yes ;  I  worked  with  a  relief  job  as  a  laborer  for 
about  2  months. 


3554 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Mr.  Curtis.  Where  was  that  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  That  was  in  Bath  County,  Va.  That  was  about 
2  years  ago. 

Mr.  Curtis.  When  you  went  back  there  and  visited  them? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  That  was  between  jobs.  For  a  while  I  made  that 
my  headquarters  and  traveled  back  and  forth.  When  I  would  get 
through  with  a  job  there  might  be  a  month,  or  sometimes  3  or  4  months, 
until  I  would  land  another  job,  and  in  the  meantime  I  made  my  head- 
quarters in  that  part  of  the  country,  part  of  the  time  with  some  of  my 
relatives,  and  part  of  the  time  with  some  of  my  wife's  relatives. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Could  you  go  back  there  at  this  time? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  As  far  as  I  know  I  could. 

Mr.  Curtis,  Would  you  be  denied  any  assistance? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  I  do  uot  kuow  that  I  would.  I  suppose  I  could 
go  back  there  and  get  on  relief  again  as  a  laborer,  but  even  so,  at  this 
particular  time  I  would  not  be  able  to  hold  a  job. 

Mr.  Curtis.  When  you  were  there  in  1938,  on  W.  P.  A.,  they  did 
not  raise  any  question  about  the  fact  that  you  had  been  gone  for  some 
time? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Ycs ;  when  I  applied  for  the  job  I  had  to  go  down 
and  spend  3  or  4  hours  with  the  county  supervisors  before  I  got  on 
the  job. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Wliat  did  they  ask  you  about,  your  residence  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  About  some  general  questions,  as  to  where  I  was 
raised,  where  I  had  spent  my  time,  and  so  on.  I  do  not  suppose  they 
went  down  deep  enough  to  really  find  out  whether  I  was  a  resident 
or  a  nonresident.    I  presume  they  took  it  for  granted  I  was  a  resident. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  considered  that  your  home? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  do  not  consider  it  your  home  now  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  If  I  was  to  consider  any  place  other  than  where 
I  am  living  now,  I  would  have  to  consider  that  as  my  home. 

The  Chairman.  You  thought  your  wrist  was  sprained  originally  ? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  How  did  you  find  out  it  was  arthritis? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  You  see,  I  only  sprained  my  wrist  on  the  job.  I 
reported  to  my  foreman ;  I  told  him  I  had  sprained  my  wrist,  and  it 
seemed  that  was  a  very  common  thing ;  and  I  worked,  let  us  see,  around 
7  days  after  I  sprained  it.  I  was  laid  off  on  Friday,  and  on  Monday 
I  went  up  to  this  clinic  to  have  a  doctor  look  at  my  arm.  He  looked  it 
over,  and  after  he  examined  my  arm  he  said,  "I  believe  you  have  some 
fever."  So,  he  took  my  temperature  and  I  did  have  some  fever.  He 
said,  "I  think  you  have  arthritis.     Go  back  home." 

So,  he  gave  me  a  slip  to  go  back  home,  and  he  said,  "If  your  arm  is 
no  better  by  Wednesday  go  to  the  Health  Security  and  get  a  pass 
and  come  back  to  the  hospital." 

So,  on  Wednesday  I  did  not  go  back ;  I  did  go  over  on  Thursday ; 
I  went  to  the  Health  Security  and  got  a  pass  and  went  down  and 
entered  the  hospital.  Ajid,  they  checked  me  over  from  every  stand- 
point. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3555 

NO  COMPENSATION  FOR  ARTHRITIS  \TCTIM 

Mr.  Curtis.  Were  any  pictures  or  X-rays  taken? 

Mr.  SwEAKENGiN.  Yes ;  they  took  two  X-rays  of  my  wrists,  and  both 
showed  there  was  no  fracture.  And  they  also  X-rayed  my  sinus; 
X-rayed  my  chest,  and  also  my  teeth.  In  fact,  they  took  13  X-rays 
and  said  I  had  a  local  infection  somewhere  that  was  causing  the 
arthritis  but  were  unable  to  find  it.  So,  they  took  my  tonsils  out  and 
made  a  serum,  and  that  is  why  I  am  going  down  to  the  hospital  every 
5  days ;  I  get  a  shot  of  that  antitoxin. 

Yesterday  I  went  to  the  hospital  and  consulted  a  specialist,  and 
I  do  not  believe  that  he  is  in  favor  of  thinking  that  I  have  arthritis ; 
I  do  not  believe  he  said  so  in  so  many  words,  but  the  others  have 
all  told  me  there  was  no  reason  for  putting  in  for  workman's  com- 
pensation, that  they  did  not  think  that  I  was  due  workman's  com- 
pensation ;  but,  he  told  me  yesterday  to  put  in  for  my  compensation, 
and  to  get  the  claim  in  and  so  I  have  taken  steps  to  try  to  get  my 
compensation. 

Mr.  CtiRTis.  By  workman's  compensation  you  mean  unemployed 
compensation  ? 

Mr.  SWEARENGIN.    No. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Unemployment  compensation? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  No ;  I  mean  workman's  compensation. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  For  injury? 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  previously  testified  that  you  could  not  get 
unemployment  compensation. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  This  is  workman's  compensation  he  is  referring  to. 
There  is  a  difference. 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  You  iCanuot  get  unemployment  compensation 
while  you  are  unable  to  work. 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  one  of  them  did  advise  you  that  you  should  put 
in  for  compensation? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Yes.  In  order  to  get  unemployment  compensa- 
tion, you  simply  go  down — you  do  not  have  to  file  for  it — you  simply 
go  down  for  employment,  if  you  are  able  to  work,  and  if  they  find 
you  a  job  and  you  go  to  work,  and  if  they  do  not  find  a  job  you  get  your 
unemployment  compensation.  But  if  you  are  unable  to  work  you 
cannot  draw  unemployment  compensation. 

Mr.  Curtis.  The  question  of  workman's  compensation  was  whether 
or  not  this  injury  was  caused  or  aggravated  by  your  employment? 

Mr.  SwExVRENGiN.  That  is  right;  if  my  wrist  is  the  sole  cause  of 
my  trouble  then  I  can  draw  workman's  compensation,  but  if  it  is  not, 
if  it  is  arthritis,  due  to  a  local  infection,  then  I  would  not  draw 
workman's  compensation. 

Mr.  Curtis.  This  last  doctor  thought  perhaps  you  would  be  entitled 
to  workman's  compensation? 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Chairman.  Thank  you  very  much. 

Mr.  SwEARENGiN.  Thank  you. 


260370—41 — pt.  9- 


gr^gg  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

TESTIMONY  OF  WILLIAM  HOWARD  FRENCH,  WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Spakkman.  Will  you  give  your  full  name  and  address  to  the 
reporter  ? 

Mr.  French.  William  Howard  French. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Where  do  you  live? 

Mr.  French.  1524  Twenty-sixth  Street  NW.,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr.  French.  I  was  born  near  Wilmington,  North  Carolina. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  With  whom  did  you  live  as  a  child? 

Mr.  French.  I  lived  with  my  family — ^by  that  I  mean  my  foster 
parents. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  much  schooling  do  you  have  ? 

Mr.  French.  But  very  little. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Can  you  read  ? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  did  you  learn  to  read  ? 

Mr.  French.  Learned  myself.  Some  of  it  I  learned  in  Sunday 
school  when  I  was  a  child. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  was  your  first  employment? 

Mr.  French.  Farming. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  work  have  you  followed  most  of  your  life? 

Mr.  French.  Well,  the  most  of  my  life  I  followed  coal  mining. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Where? 

Mr.  French.  West  Virginia,  Kentucky,  Pemisylvania,  and  Ohio, 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  much  did  you  make  on  the  job  as  a  miner,  on 
the  average? 

Mr.  French.  Sometimes  very  little ;  maybe  $40 ;  sometimes  $30,  some- 
times $20,  and  sometimes  less  than  that. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  long  did  you  work  in  the  coal  mines? 

Mr.  French.  Nineteen  years. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Were  you  able  to  save  any  money? 

Mr,  French.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  were  you  paid  for  the  coal  mining  work  ?  By 
the  day,  by  the  week,  or  how  ? 

Mr.  French.  We  were  paid  by  the  car  until  we  had  a  union. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Until  you  had  what  ? 

Mr.  French.  A  union — miners'  union — in  1931. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Then  how  were  you  paid  ? 

Mr.  French.  We  were  paid  by  the  ton. 

Mr.  Sp.arkman.  By  the  ton? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  much  per  ton  ? 

COAL  miners'  wages  INCREASED 

Mr.  French.  Well,  it  began  at  22  cents  a  ton,  after  we  left  the  car 
system.  And,  in  1933  we  got  a  union  and  got  56  cents  a  ton ;  and  in 
1936  we  got  a  raise,  in  the  union,  to  76  cents  a  ton  for  machine  coal, 
and  $1.01  for  pick  coal. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  It  looks  as  though  under  that  scale  of  Avages  you 
would  have  been  able  to  make  more  than  you  did. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3557 

Mr.  French.  I  beg  your  pardon  ? 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Why  were  you  not  able  to  make  any  more  than  you 
did  when  you  were  getting  paid  that  much  ? 

Mr.  French.  The  reason  I  did  not  make  anymore  was  because  the 
operators  would  not  allow  you  to;  the  mine  only  worked  part  time. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  other  words,  you  did  not  have  sufficient  work  to 
earn  more  ^ 


Mr.  French.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  were  on  part-time  operation  ? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  With  whom  did  you  live  in  West  Virginia  ? 

Mr.  French.  Well,  when  I  was  in  West  Virginia,  a  part  of  the  time, 
until  I  left,  with  my  foster  parents. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  were  their  names? 

Mr.  French.  Alsop. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  old  are  you  ? 

Mr.  French.  Fifty-one. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  you  have  a  family  of  your  own  ? 

Mr.  French.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  are  not  married  ? 

Mr.  French.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Are  your  foster  parents  still  living  ? 

Mr.  French.  My  foster  mother  is;  my  foster  father  died  Decem- 
ber 2, 1939. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Where  does  you  foster  mother  live? 

Mr.  French.  She  lives  at  my  address. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Here  in  Washington  ? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  live  here  with  her  ? 

Mr.  French.  I  live  with  her. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  was  your  foster  father's  employment? 

Mr.  French.  He  was  a  plasterer  by  trade. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  you  ever  worked  with  him  ? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  you  know  the  trade  of  plasterer? 

Mr.  French.  No,  I  do  not;  I  did  not  learn  it. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  kind  of  work  did  you  do  with  him? 

Mr.  French.  I  made  mortar  and  waited  on  him.     I  learned  to  put 
the  day,  by  the  week,  or  how  ? 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  you  ever  farm  any  ^ 

Mr.  French.  I 
17  years  of  age. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  you  farm  any  later  on  ? 

Mr.  French.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  have  not  farmed  any  since  that  time? 

Mr.  French.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  When  did  you  come  to  Washington  ? 

Mr.  French.  I  came  to  Washington  in  November  1938. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  did  you  happen  to  come  here  ? 

Mr.  French.  I  came  here  with  my  foster  parents. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  you  done  any  work  since  you  have  been  here  ? 


3558 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Mr.  French.  Well,  yes;  some. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  were  some  of  the  jobs?  Let  me  put  it  this 
way :  Have  you  been  steadily  employed  ? 

Mr.  French.  No  ;  it  has  not  been  steady. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  It  consisted  of  what  jobs? 

Mr.  French.  Wliat  kind  of  jobs? 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Yes;  what  were  their  nature? 

Mr.  French.  Well,  waiting  on  my  foster  father  as  a  plasterer,  help- 
ing in  carpenter  work;  and  I  also  worked  at  the  recreation  center  in 
Georgetown. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  was  the  last  job  you  had? 

Mr.  French.  That  was  the  last  job ;  yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Working  at  the  recreation  center  ? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  did  you  do  there? 

Mr.  French.  Setting  up  pins  in  the  bowling  alley. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Why  did  you  quit  that  ? 

Mr.  French.  Got  my  foot  broke. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Wlien  was  that  ? 

Mr.  French.  January  8,  1939— no,  1940. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  you  go  to  the  hospital  ? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  you  draw  compensation? 

Mr.  French.  I  did  not  go  to  the  hospital  for  that. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  did  not  ? 

Mr.  French.  No;  but  I  did  go  to  the  hospital. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  how  long  were  you  out  of  work  with  a  broken 
foot? 

Mr.  French.  I  was  out  until  April. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  you  draw  compensation  ? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  For  the  injury? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  long  did  you  draw  compensation  ? 

Mr.  French.  I  drew  compensation  from  February  until  April. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  much  did  you  draw  ? 

Mr.  French.  I  think  it  averaged  about  $6.30  per  week. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  you  go  back  to  the  bowling  alley  ? 

Mr.  French.  No  ;  it  was  shut  down ;  it  does  not  run  in  the  summer. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  about  this  fall,  after  it  opened  up  ? 

Mr.  French.  Sir  ? 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  it  open  up  this  fall  ? 

Mr.  French.     Yes ;  it  opened  up  in  the  fall. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  you  tried  to  get  employment  there? 

Mr.  French.  I  was  not  able. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Why? 

Mr.  French.  I  was  not  able  when  it  opened  up. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Why  were  you  not  able? 

Mr.  French.  Because  I  had  just  been  released  from  the  hospital. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  have  you  been  in  the  hospital  this  time  for? 

Mr.  French.  I  was  in  the  hospital  from  June  6  to  August  15. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3559 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  was  the  trouble? 
Mr.  French.  Throat ;  I  had  a  goiter  removed. 
Mr.  Sparkman.  You  had  a  goiter  removed  ? 
Mr.  French.  Yes. 

DENIED  RELHIF  IN  DISTRICT  OF  COLUMBIA 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  you  ever  received  or  asked  for  relief? 

Mr.  French.  Yes ;  I  asked  for  it. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Were  you  able  to  get  it  ? 

Mr.  French.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Why? 

Mr.  French.  Because  they  said  I  could  not  prove  that  I  had  sup- 
ported myself  for  1  year  in  the  District  of  Columbia,  and  I  was  not 
a  District  resident. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  No.  What  State  was  your  last  residence  before 
you  came  to  the  District  of  Columbia? 

Mr.  French.  It  was  Ohio. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  long  have  you  been  gone  from  Ohio  ? 

Mr.  French.  I  left  Ohio  in  May  1938. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  you  ever  checked  to  find  out  whether  or  not 
you  were  still  a  resident  of  Ohio  ? 

Mr.  French.  Some  lady  did. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Someone  connected  with  the  relief? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  what  did  she  find  out  ? 

Mr.  French.  She  found  out  I  had  been  away  for  1  year. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  were  absent  from  Ohio  for  1  year? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Which  kept  you  from  being  a  resident  of  Ohio  ? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Although  you  have  been  in  the  District  of  Columbia 
over  2  years  ? 

Mr.  French.  Have  been  in  the  District  for  the  past  2  years. 

Mr.  Sparkivian.  Have  you  been  here  for  2  years  and  still  you  are 
not  a  resident  in  the  District  of  Columbia  ? 

Mr.  French.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Where  are  you  a  resident  ? 

Mr.  French.  No  place,  I  guess. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Curtis.  When  did  you  first  ask  for  relief  here  in  the  District 
of  Columbia  ? 

Mr.  French.  I  first  asked  for  relief  when  I  was  in  the  hospital. 

Mr.  Curtis.  This  year  ? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  had  then  lived  in  the  District  of  Columbia  about 
18  months;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Who  supported  you  during  that  year  and  a  half  ? 

Mr.  French.  Wlio  supported  me  ? 


ocgQ  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Curtis.  Yes ;  during  the  year  and  a  half  you  have  been  living 

Mr.  French.  Well,  my  foster  father  and  my  foster  mother— we  put 
what  we  made  together  and  lived  together.  ,..-,•       ^.    ^ 

Mr.  Curtis.  Did  your  foster  parents  draw  any  relief  durnig  that 
year  and  a  half  ? 

Mr.  French.  No. 

Mr.  Curtis.  It  looks  to  me  like  he  has  been  here  a  year. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Why  is  it  that  you  could  not  prove  that  you  had  been 
within  the  District  of  Columbia  for  1  year  ? 

Mr.  French.  I  did  not  understand  you. 

Mr  Sparkman.  Wliy  is  it  you  could  not  prove  you  had  lived  m  the 
District  of  Columbia  for  at  least  a  year  and  have  been  supporting  your- 
self during  that  time?  Otherwise  you  would  be  eligible  for  relief, 
would  you  not  ?  ^         ■,  -,  ,> 

Mr.  French.  Well,  the  lady  at  the  relief  office  told  me  my  foster 
mother  had  worked  for  a  year  for  $5  a  week  and  that  she  had  supported 
the  family. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Instead  of  yourself  ? 

Mr.  Fpjench.  Instead  of  me. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  your  foster  mother  working  now  ? 

Mr.  French.  She  works  a  day  and  a  half  a  week. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  does  she  get  ? 

Mr.  French.  Two  dollars  a  day,  and  carfare. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is  $3  a  week? 

Mr.  French.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  She  gets  carfare,  how  about  her  meals? 

Mr.  French.  She  gets  her  meals. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  that  the  only  steady  income? 

Mr.  French.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  do  you  live  on  that ;  you  cannot  live  on  that. 

Mr.  French.  No.  Well,  occasionally  I  get  an  odd  job  myself.  I  get 
50  cents  or  maybe  a  quarter  or  30  cents,  something  like  that.  Some- 
times it  may  be"  more.    Last  week  I  made  $5. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  $5  last  week  ? 

Mr.  French.  Yes.  I  washed  dishes  for  a  lady  and  did  some  house- 
work for  her. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is  all. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you,  Mr.  French. 

The  committee  will  stand  adjourned  until  10  o'clock  tomorrow 
morning. 

(At  4: 15  p.  m.  an  adjournment  was  taken- until  10  a.  m.  of  the  fol- 
lowing day,  Friday,  Dec.  6,  1940.) 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


FRIDAY,   DECEMBER  6,    1940 

House  of  Representatives, 

Select  Committee  to  iNvrcsTiGATE  the 

Interstate  Migration  of  Destitute  Citizens, 

Washingto7i,  D.  C. 
The  committee  met  at  10  a.  m.,  Hon  John  J.  Sparkman  presiding. 
Present:  Representatives  John  J.  Sparkman,  Claude  V.  Parsons, 
and  Carl  T.  Curtis. 

(Chairman  Tolan  was  absent  because  of  illness;  Mr.  Osmers  was 
out  of  the  city  on  account  of  business.) 

Also  present :  Robert  K.  Lamb,  chief  investigator ;  Henry  H.  Col- 
lins, Jr.,  coordinator  of  hearings;  Creekmore  Fath,  and  John  W. 
Abbott,  field  investigators ;  Ariel  E.  V.  Dunn  and  Alice  M.  Tuohy,  as- 
sistant field  investigators;  Irene  M.  Hageman,  hearings  secretary; 
Richard  S.  Blaisdell,  editor;  Harold  C.  Cullen,  associate  editor. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  The  committee  will  be  in  order.  The  first  wit- 
nesses this  morning  will  be  Mr.  Clague,  Dr.  Coffee,  and  Mr.  Alves. 

PANEL  TESTIMONY  OF  EWAN  CLAGUE,  DIRECTOR,  BUREAU  OP  EM- 
PLOYMENT SECURITY;  DR.  E.  R.  COFPEE,  UNITED  STATES  PUBLIC 
HEALTH  SERVICE;  HENRY  S.  ALVES,  OFFICE  OF  EDUCATION ;  AND 
MARTIN  F.  CARPENTER,  BUREAU  OF  EMPLOYMENT  SECURITY 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Will  each  of  you  gentlemen  give  the  reporter  your 
name,  and  state  the  official  capacity  in  which  you  appear? 

Mr.  Clague.  My  name  is  Ewan  Clague,  Director  of  the  Bureau  of 
Employment  Security. 

Dr.  Coffee.  I  am  Dr.  E.  R.  Coffee,  of  the  Public  Health  Service. 

Mr.  Alves.  My  name  is  Henry  S.  Alves,  from  the  United  States 
Office  of  Education. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Gentlemen,  we  have  the  prepared  statements  that 
ou  have  submitted  to  us,  and  they  will  become  a  part  of  the  record, 
"e  would  like  for  you  gentlemen,  to  proceed  in  whatever  way  you 
see  fit.  It  may  be  that  each  one  of  you  will  be  glad  to  give  the  high 
points  of  your  particular  paper,  and  then  have  us  ask  some  questions. 
Of  course,  while  that  is  being  done  individually,  we  want  each  of 
you  to  feel  free  to  interrupt  at  any  time  and  make  any  comment 
or  ask  any  question  you  wish. 

Mr.  Clague,  your  statement  will  be  entered  in  the  record  at  this 
point,  and  then  you  may  discuss  the  subject  matter. 

(The  statement  is  as  follows :) 

3561 


^: 


3562 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


STATEMENT  BY  EWAN  CLAGUE,  DIRECTOR,  BUREAU  OF  EMPLOYMENT 
SECURITY,  SOCIAL  SECURITY  BOARD 

The  Program  of  the  Bureau  of  Employment   Security  As   It   Relates  to 

Migration 

The  labor  available  today  for  employment  in  any  single  manufacturing  or 
agricultural  area  can  be  defined  no  longer  by  geographic  boundaries.  Cotton 
pickers  arrive  in  the  fields  of  Arizona  from  the  adjoining  State  of  California 
or  from  as  far  east  as  Mississippi  and  Tennessee.  Beet  workers  move  north 
through  the  Great  Plains  and  Rocky  Mountain  States  harvesting  the  suger-beet 
crop.  Up  and  down  the  eastern  and  western  seaboard  agricultural  workers 
follow  the  fruit  and  vegetable  crops,  many  of  them  crossing  State  lines  several 
times  during  a  season.  These  agricultural  areas  constitute  a  labor  market  in 
which  supply  and  demand  factors  operate  without  regard  to  civil  or  administra- 
tive boundaries.  .     ^^       ,  ,  ^ 

The  mobility  which  characterizes  the  supply  of  seasonal  agricultural  labor  is 
also  common  to  other  occupations  and  in  other  industries.  For  a  long  time 
students  of  labor  mobility  have  realized  that  railroad,  construction,  and  oil 
field  workers  follow  the  source  of  their  employment  and  in  many  cases  maintain 
only  temporary  residence  in  a  community.  Recently  the  increase  in  production 
of  materials  essential  to  national  defense  has  drawn  the  skilled  labor  supply 
of  our  country  into  areas  of  industrial  activity.  All  of  these  migrants— those 
who  regularly  follow  some  seasonal  or  shifting  employment,  those  who  move 
from  depressed  areas  to  areas  of  labor  demand,  and  those  unemployed  who 
travel  haphazardly  from  one  place  to  another  always  in  the  hope  of  finding 
some  permanent  means  of  subsistence— present  special  problems  which  are  the 
concern  of  Government  agencies  interested  in  the  economic  security  of  labor. 

stabilization  of  workers'  income 

The  Bureau  of  Employment  Security  attempts  to  stabilize  the  income  of  these 
workers  in  two  ways:  First,  by  providing  a  national  system  of  employment 
exchanges  organized  to  bring  workers  in  contact  with  the  jobs  for  which  they 
qualify;  and  second,  by  providing  compensation  for  temporary  loss  of  income 
during  periods  of  unemployment.  Today  the  United  States  Employment  Service 
offers  a  uniform  procedure  through  which  workers  may  receive  information 
regarding  job  openings  in  every  section  of  the  country.  It  is  no  longer  neces- 
sary to  migrate  from  an  isolated  community  to  some  large  industrial  center  in 
the  search  for  employment.  Approximately  1,500  public  employment  offices  In 
51  States  and  TeiTitories  of  the  United  States  are  operating  to  serve  the  needs  of 
labor  and  employers.  In  addition  over  3,000  locations  in  sparsely  populated 
areas  are  visited  periodically  by  itinerant  interviewers.  These  offices  make 
possible  the  widespread  circulation  of  employer  orders  and  the  dissemination  of 
information  regarding  job  opportunities.  A  national  system  for  the  interstate 
control  of  employer  orders  and  the  referral  of  labor  has  recently  been  organized 
on  a  regional  basis  so  that,  when  the  supply  of  labor  in  a  particular  occupation 
is  exhausted  in  one  region,  orders  may  be  cleared  systematically  in  other  regions. 
This  has  greatly  facilitated  the  referral  of  workers  to  defense  industries  in 
spite  of  certain  stringencies  in  the  labor  market. 

SHOULD  DISTRIBUTE  JOB   INFORMATION 

Through  the  use  of  State  employment  services,  and  a  national  system  for  the 
distribution  of  reliable  job  information  and  the  clearance  of  labor  between 
States,  much  of  the  unnecessary  migration  of  unemployed  job  seekers  can  be 
eliminated.  As  workers  and  employers  learn  to  use  the  facilities  of  the  United 
States  Employment  Service  the  number  of  persons  who  leave  their  home  com- 
munities in  search  of  employment  only  to  become  destitute  migrants  will 
decrease. 

Employment  Service  facilities  can  also  be  used  effectively  to  direct  the  move- 
ment of  workers  who  migrate  in  response  to  seasonal  demands  for  labor.  This 
is  especially  true  in  agriculture  where  the  objective  of  the  service  is  to  meet  the 
needs  of  both  growers  and  workers  and  at  the  same  time  to  avoid  vmnecessary 
and  fruitless  migration.     Functioning  in  the  agricultural  labor  market,  and  in 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3563 

cooperation  with  ottier  agencies,  the  Employment  Service  can  be  a  means  of 
stabilizing  farm-labor  resources,  providing  a  more  adequate  income  to  a  limited 
number  of  qualified  workers,  eliminating  the  irresponsible  recruiting  practices 
of  labor  contractors,  and  providing  growers  with  workers  who  are  experienced 
in  a  particular  tyi)e  of  crop  activity. 

UNEMPLOYMENT  COMPENSATION  FOR  MIGRANTS  INSUFFICIENT 

The  present  unemployment  compensation  program  offers  a  certain  amount  of 
economic  security  to  migratory  workers.  State  unemployment  compensation 
systems  provide  that  every  unemployed  worker  who  meets  the  qualifying  I'e- 
quirements  for  benefits  in  the  State  in  which  he  has  been  employed  is  entitled 
to  receive  those  benefits  even  though  he  may  have  moved  to  another  State.  This 
system  of  interstate  claims  permits  workers  to  return  to  their  home  communi- 
ties, or  to  move  on  to  another  State  in  search  of  work,  during  periods  of  unem- 
ployment without  foregoing  their  benefit  rights.  Thus,  through  the  receipt  of 
unemployment  compensation  many  covered  workers  who  migrate  across  State 
lines,  as  well  as  those  who  remain  in  the  community,  obtain  some  protection 
against  loss  of  income. 

A  recent  study  has  been  made  in  Tennessee  using  data  concerning  interstate 
claims  filed  in  that  State  against  benefit  rights  earned  in  Michigan.  An  analysis 
of  this  material  indicates  that  a  pattern  of  migration  exists  between  rural  areas 
in  Tennessee  and  industrial  centers  in  Michigan.  The  Tennessee  workers  who 
migrate  in  response  to  seasonal  demand  in  Michigan's  industries,  return  to  their 
homes  during  seasons  of  slack  industrial  employment.  Many  of  these  workers 
are  prevented  from  becoming  stranded  in  Michigan  by  their  ability  to  qualify  for 
unemployment  compensation. 

However,  present  State  unemployment-compensation  programs  do  not  meet  the 
needs  of  all  groups  of  migrants.  Every  State  unemployment-compensation  law 
with  the  exception  of  that  for  the  District  of  Columbia  specifically  exempts  agri- 
cultural labor.  Other  States,  through  their  eligibility  requirements  and  their 
limitations  on  benefits  paid  to  seasonal  workers,  in  effect  exclude  many  seasonal 
migratory  workers.  Still  a  third  group  of  migrants  is  excluded  because  they 
have  not  been  employed  long  enough  in  any  one  State  to  qualify  for  benefits  under 
any  State  unemployment-compensation  law,  although  their  total  wage  credits,  if 
earned  in  a  single  State,  would  have  been  suflBcient  to  qualify  for  benefits.  If  the 
present  increase  in  production  of  defense  materials  tends  to  stimulate  labor 
mobility,  this  group  of  workers,  who  cannot  qualify  for  benefits  because  they  have 
moved  to  employment  in  another  State,  may  increase  significantly. 

MUST  INCREASE  MIGRANT  INCOMES 

There  is  a  pressing  need  to  provide  a  continuing  income  to  migratory  workers 
who  by  reason  of  short  periods  of  employment  coupled  with  low  incomes  are 
frequently  without  resources.  The  employment  service  may  help  to  eliminate 
long  periods  of  unemployment  and  to  prevent  the  misdirected  and  uneconomical 
migration  of  workers. 

Effective  coverage  of  migratory  workers  under  unemployment  compensation 
depends  in  large  part  on  the  extension  of  coverage  to  agricultural  workers  gen- 
erally, and  on  the  liberalization  of  seasonal  exclusions,  since  so  many  migrants  are 
attached  to  agriculture  or  some  other  seasonal  industry.  These  extensions  involve 
problems  of  administration  and  cost.  Whether  the  costs  should  be  borne  pri- 
marily by  the  seasonal  industries  (including  agriculture),  whose  labor  needs 
require  a  mobUe  reserve  of  migratory  workers,  is  a  question  in  need  of  further 
serious  study.  Furthermore,  the  administration  of  a  system  of  unemployment 
compensation  for  agricultural  workei-s  is  itself  complicated  by  the  fact  that  so 
many  agricultural  workers  are  migrants.  Since  a  worker  would  be  required  to 
register  for  work  and  claim  benefits  reasonably  near  his  place  of  employment 
or  his  residence,  a  considerable  extension  of  the  services  now  available  through 
the  public  employment  offices  would  be  necessary. 

The  problem  of  obtaining  benefits  for  workers  who,  although  nominally  cov- 
ered, have  not  remained  in  any  one  State  long  enough  to  qualify  is  directly 
related  to  the  marked  differences  in  State  unemployment-compensation  laws.  The 
possibility  of  establishing  standard  eligibility  requirements  for  every  State  is 


3564  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

very  small.  Under  the  Tax  Act  no  provision  is  made  for  a  Federal  fmid  or  the 
establishment  of  certain  Federal  eligibility  requirements  which  vpould  enable  the 
Federal  agency  to  administer  a  system  of  benefit  payments  to  interstate  migrants. 

TESTIMONY  OF  EWAN  CLAGUE— Resumed 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Clague,  you  may  proceed  as  you  see  fit. 

Mr.  Clague.  I  think  the  relationship  of  our  Bureau  of  Employment 
Security  to  this  whole  problem  has  two  main  aspects.  In  this  Bureau 
we  combine  the  work  of  the  United  States  Employment  Service 
and  the  work  of  the  Federal  and  State  systems  of  unemployment 
compensation. 

With  respect  to  our  Employment  Service  activities,  we  play  a  part 
in  the  migrant  problem,  particularly  in  two  ways :  one,  in  facilitating 
the  movement  of  workers  to  places  where  they  are  needed  for  work, 
and  the  other  is  in  restraining  or  in  modifying  useless  or  needless 
migration  of  workers  where  the  workers,  perhaps,  should  not  be  moved 
from  one  part  of  the  country  to  another.  In  our  unemployment  com- 
pensation activities,  we  have  a  system  of  State  unemployment-compen- 
sation benefits  by  means  of  which  workers  are  paid  unemployment 
compensation  for  a  period  of  time  following  a  period  of  work,  and  since 
much  of  this  migration  is  fi^om  one  State  to  another,  we  have  devised 
a  system  of  interstate  benefit  payments  by  which  a  worker  who  is 
qualified  in  one  State  may  receive  his  benefits  while  in  another  State 
looking  for  work.  This  system  is  now  adliered  to  by  all  the  States 
of  the  Union  except  the  District  of  Coliunbia,  which  is  prevented  from 
doing  it  by  its  statutes.  We  have  over  the  period  of  the  last  2  years 
perfexjted,  or  at  least  developed,  the  system  or  the  interstate  arrange- 
ment by  which  workers  are  paid  in  one  State  who  have  come  from 
another  State.  In  that  way  we  do  insure  to  some  extent  that  the 
worker  who  does  move  around  looking  for  work  is  not  deprived  of 
unemployment  compensation. 

On  the  other  hand,  I  must  point  out  that  w^orkers  who  work  in 
different  States  and  are  unable  to  earn  enough  wages  in  one  State  to 
qualify  in  any  one  State  in  consequence  of  their  rapid  movement,  may 
be  deprived  of  any  benefits  or  rights  whatsoever.  Also,  even  where 
they  do  qualify,  the  amounts  of  their  benefit  rights  are  comparatively 
small.  We  have  some  studies  which  have  a  bearing  on  that  and 
show  something  of  the  extent  to  which  these  interstate  migrants  do 
fall  short  of  getting  the  unemployment  compensation  that  they  might 
be  entitled  to  on  the  basis  of  their  work  if  it  were  all  concentrated  in 
the  same  State. 

UNCXDNTROLLED   DEFENSE   MIGRATION 

With  respect  to  the  employment  service  question,  I  might  mention 
again  that  we  have  had  in  the  past  a  very  great  problem,  particularly 
with  respect  to  the  interstate  migration  of  farm  labor.  At  the  present 
time,  due  to  the  tremendous  expansion  of  the  defense  industries,  we 
have  an  industrial  flow  of  migration  which  in  certain  respects  takes 
on  some  of  the  characteristics  of  the  farm-labor  migration,  with  this 
difference:  that  probably  a  larger  percentage  of  the  migrants  are 
directed  toward  jobs  which  may  likely  materialize,  whereas  in  the 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3565 

former  case  of  farm-labor  migration,  the  opportunity  may  not  mate- 
rialize. However,  in  a  great  many  of  the  States  where  they  have  new 
cantonments  going  up  and  new  defense  industries  being  established, 
they  have  started  to  get  a  more  extensive  uncontrolled  migration 
than  we  had  in  the  case  of  the  agricultural  migration.  The  Employ- 
ment Service  is  endeavoring  to  establish  machinery  by  which  to  con- 
trol that  migration,  moving  workers  to  places  where  they  are  needed, 
and  keeping  out  the  workers  who  are  not  needed,  but  who  would 
simply  cause  a  social,  health,  and  welfare  problem  when  they  moved  in. 

NATION-WIDE    EMPLOYMENT    CLEARANCE 

We  have  established  an  interstate  Nation-wide  clearance  machinery. 
The  machinery,  it  is  true,  already  existed,  but  it  has  been  gradually 
developed  and  extended,  because  so  many  workers  are  moving  across 
State  lines,  and  because  so  many  jobs  are  being  offered  that  we  cannot 
fill  locally.  In  this  machinery,  we  have  a  series  of  clearance  offices 
by  which  we  clear  people  for  jobs  offered  in  an  area  where  they 
cannot  be  filled  locally.  If  we  cannot  fill  them  in  that  way,  we  pass 
them  into  the  Nation-wide  network.  A  great  many  jobs  at  the 
present  time  are  filled  without  going  through  the  clearance  mecha- 
nism in  order  to  be  filled,  particularly  in  the  skilled  occupations. 

Perhaps,  I  should  say  a  word  about  the  farm  or  agricultural 
labor.  We  have  always  been  deeply  conscious  of  this  widespread 
agricultural  migration,  and  have  from  time  to  time  endeavored  to 
wor"k  out  some  satisfactory  method  of  controlling  the  migration  from 
the  Employment  Service  point  of  view.  I  believe  we  now  have  a 
mechanism  by  which  that  can  be  done,  and  we  are  expecting  to 
develop  that  during  the  next  6,  8,  or  9  months,  preparatory  for  the 
work  next  summer. 

I  think  that,  perhaps,  presents  the  subject  from  our  point  of  view. 
I  will  be  glad,  of  course,  to  answer  any  questions. 

MODIFIED  FARM   PLACEMENT   SERVICE 

Mr.  Sparkman,  You  say  you  have  machinery  for  handling  the 
farm  migrant  situation  now.    Is  that  a  Farm  Placement  Service  ? 

Mr.  Claghe.  It  is  a  modification  of  the  Farm  Placement  Service 
we  have  had  for  some  time.  For  some  time  we  have  discussed  this 
along  with  certain  problems  in  connection  with  the  Farm  Placement 
Service  and  which  were  not  wholly  solved.  We  have  never  been 
quite  satisfied  with  the  mechanism  that  we  have,  and  we  are  now 
modifying  that  in  certain  respects,  and  greatly  improving  it,  so  that 
we  hope  we  will  have  an  efficient  Farm  Placement  Service. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Wliat  is  the  relationship  between  the  Farm  Place- 
ment Service  and  the  Veterans'  Placement  Service? 
^  Mr.  Ci^'^GUE.  Theoretically,  there  is  not  necessarily  any  connec- 
tion. We  have  in  a  few  instances  used  the  Veterans'  Placement  Service 
representative  as  a  farm  placement  service  representative.  Perhaps  I 
should  explain  that  we  have  a  Veterans'  Placement  Service,  a  Federal 
service  attached  to  the  Federal  bureau,  by  which  we  have  one  person 
in  the  State  with  our  Veterans'  Placement  Service  in  the  State,  or  a 


QKgg  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

representative  of  the  Federal  bureau,  who  looks  after  the  interests  of 
veterans  in  the  placement  service  of  the  States.  We  have  a  much 
smaller  number  of  farm  placement  representatives.  They  are  hmited 
in  number,  and  where  the  farm  problem  is  less  serious,  particularly  the 
interstate  migratory  farm-labor  problem,  on  a  few  occasions  we  have 
in  the  past  merged  those  two  services  with  the  Veterans'  placement 
representative  in  the  State  also  handling  farm  placement  work  m  the 
State  I  should  explain  that  we  do  not  do  any  direct  farm-place- 
ment work  as  such.  This  man  who  is  in  the  State  is  simply  there  to 
help  the  State  or  aid  it  in  operating  its  farm  placement  service.  This 
arrangement  or  combination  with  the  Veterans'  Placement  Service 
has  not  worked  especially  well,  and  it  will  be  discontinued  at  any 
place  where  it  is  in  effect. 

migrants'  unemployment  benefits  meager 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  discussed  a  few  minutes  ago  the  failure  of 
a  great  many  migrants  to  get  certain  benefits,  particularly  unem- 
ployment compensation  benefits  that  they  might  have  gotten  had  they 
not  been  moving  from  State  to  State.  I  do  not  suppose  you  have  the 
information  with  you,  but  I  wonder  if  you  have  it  in  your  office, 
showing  to  what  extent  that  has  been  true. 

Mr.  Clague.  Yes,  sir;  I  do  happen  to  have  a  study  here  on  that 
very  point,  from  which  I  might  cite  something.  I  do  not  know 
whether  this  study  has  previously  come  to  your  attention,  or  not, 
in  the  course  of  your  hearings.  This  study  was  made  by  Dr.  Stanch- 
field,  chief,  research,  statistics  and  planning  section,  Michigan  Un- 
employment Commission.  He  made  a  survey  of  the  situation  in  the 
State  of  Michigan  respecting  workers  in  that  State  who  went  back 
home  and  drew  benefits  from  the  State  of  Michigan,  drawing  them 
in  the  States  where  they  were  living.  A  companion  study  was  made 
in  the  State  of  Tennessee.  I  might  read  you  a  few  statistics  from 
Mr.  Stanchfield's  report.    He  makes  this  statement : 

In  1939  about  20,000  indiyiduals  filed  interstate  claims  against  Michigan, 
and  more  than  12,000  individuals  actually  received  benefits  based  on  such 
claims.  Altogether,  in  the  2  years  ending  June  1940,  at  least  30,000  individuals 
probably  have  filed  claims  in  other  States  against  the  Michigan  Unemployment 
Compensation  fund. 

Here  is  an  interesting  statement  from  Dr.  Stanchfield's  report : 

Less  than  20  percent  of  the  interstate  claims  come  from  States  adjacent  to 
Michigan,  while  80  percent  come  from  nonadjacent  States.  A  relatively  large 
part  of  the  total  comes  from  the  Appalachian  States  (Kentucky,  Tennessee, 
Pennsylvania,  and  West  Virginia).  Other  important  States  to  which  migra- 
tion occurs  are  New  York,  California,  and  Missouri. 

In  other  words,  these  workers  who  come  in  to  work  in  Detroit, 
moving  from  Indiana  and  Illinois,  represents  only  20  percent  of  the 
niunber,  while  80  percent  come  from  States  farther  away.  He  says  a 
relatively  large  part  of  tlie  total  number  comes  from  the  Appalachian 
States  of  Virginia,  Kentuclcy,  Tennessee,  Pennsylvania,  and  West 
Virginia. 

This  report  further  states : 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3567 

A  very  large  proportion  of  the  interstate  claimants  have  had  insufficient  em- 
ployment to  qualify  for  any  benefits.  In  1939,  42  percent  of  the  interstate  claim- 
ants were  found  ineligible,  vphile  only  12.5  percent  of  all  Michigan  claims  were 
disallowed.  This  indicates  that  many  of  the  migrants  have  had  relatively 
little  work  in  Michigan,  or  that  they  have  worked  in  employment  which  is  not 
protected  by  unemployment  insurance. 

WORKERS  LOSE  BENEFIT  RIGHTS 

In  other  words,  out  of  the  20,000  workers  who  lived  outside  of  the 
State  and  who  got  work  in  Michigan  and  then  went  back  home,  8,000 
lost  their  benefit  rights,  or  the  benefit  rights  they  might  have  had. 
That  was  due  to  the  fact  that  they  did  not  work  long  enough  in  Michi- 
gan to  become  qualified  under  the  Michigan  law.  However,  if  they  had 
been  able  to  add  to  their  earnings  in  Michigan  earnings  they  received 
in  Tennessee,  Kentucky,  or  Ohio,  they  might  have  had  enough  in  all 
the  States  combined  to  have  received  some  rights. 

There  is  one  other  point  of  interest  here  in  this  report.  There  is 
no  indication  in  this  Michigan  report  that  these  workers  were  per- 
forming low-grade  work.  It  appears  from  the  report  that  average 
earnings  were  $13.46  as  compared  with  $13.Y8  for  the  whole  State. 
Therefore  it  would  appear  that  these  out-of-State  workers  were  not 
engaged  in  an  unskilled  type  of  work,  but  that  they  were  engaged  in 
work  performed  by  the  ordinary  normal  laboring  people  in  the  State 
of  Michigan.  It  would  appear  that  they  were  of  the  average  class 
employed  in  the  industry  in  which  they  were  engaged. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Are  these  unemployment-compensation  payments 
made  out  of  State  funds  ? 

Mr.  Clague.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  which  the  Federal  Government  does  not  par- 
ticipate ? 

Mr.  Clague.  The  Federal  Government  participates  to  the  extent 
that  the  administrative  expenses  are  partly  paid  by  the  Federal 
Government. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  But  not  the  benefit  payments? 

Mr.  Clague.  No,  sir;  not  the  benefit  payments. 

The  State  funds  are  deposited  in  the  Treasury  of  the  United  States 
as  State  unemployment-compensation  reserve  funds,  but  they  can  be 
withdrawn  by  the  State  for  the  payment  of  benefits.  They  do  not 
belong  to  the  Federal  Treasury. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  If  these  people  who  move  from  one  State  to  another 
could  add  their  various  periods  of  service  and  have  them  credited, 
they  would  be  entitled  to  benefits? 

Mr.  Clague.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparbjvian.  Do  you  have  afty  plan  by  which  that  might  be 
worked  out? 

Mr.  Clague.  We  have  been  working  on  that  in  our  bureau  for  some 
time.  We  always  did  recognize  that  that  provision  should  be  in  any 
State  plan.  The  diflSculty  is  that  it  must  be  split  up  among  the  States. 
The  first  step  we  took,  which  we  thought  was  important,  was  to  make 
some  arrangement  by  which  the  States  would  honor  each  other's  bene- 
fit rights.    All  the  States  were  willing  to  accept  that  except  one,  and 


3568  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

all  the  States  in  the  Union,  except  one,  are  now  in  that  program.  On 
the  other  hand,  there  was  the  question  of  difference  in  those  rights, 
and  there  is  the  question  of  adding  up  the  rights  in  the  States.  Where 
the  workers  moved  from  one  State  to  another,  while  the  amounts  might 
be  rather  small,  when  added  together  they  would  make  enough  to  qual- 
ify the  worker  to  receive  benefits.  That  makes  a  pretty  difficult  ques- 
tion for  the  States.  There  would  be  the  problem  in  each  State  as  tti 
the  qualification  or  eligibility  regulations,  and  so  forth,  which  each  one 
would  be  allowed  to  establish.  The  States  differ  in  certain  respects, 
and  sometimes  it  is  more  difficult  to  qualify  in  one  State  than  in 
another.    We  are  continually  working  on  that  problem. 

RELATIONSHIP  OF  PLACEMENT  SERVICES 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  is  the  relationship  between  the  Farm  Place- 
ment Service  and  the  State  employment  service  ? 

Mr.  Clague.  The  Farm  Placement  Service,  or  the  United  States 
Employment  Service,  under  the  Employment  Security  Bureau,  is 
really  a  type  of  assistance  service  that  we  supply  to  the  States.  There 
are  officials  on  our  pay  roll  who  are  sent  as  representatives  into  the 
States,  and  who  reside  in  the  States,  working  with  the  State  head- 
quarters. They  are  in  the  State  employment  service,  and  are  there  to 
help  the  States  handle  the  problem  of  farm  placement,  and,  particu- 
larly, to  help  the  States  to  handle  the  placements  across  State  lines. 
Our  people  can  move  freely  across  State  lines.  There  are  also  persons 
who  attempt  to  aid  just  in  one  State  in  the  problem  of  farm  placement. 
Therefore,  they  direct  their  attention  toward  facilitating  the  move- 
ment of  workers  or,  possibly,  limiting  the  movement  of  workers  across 
State  lines  where  agricultural  labor  may  or  may  not  be  placed.  They 
do  not  do  any  placement  at  all.  Our  Farm  Placement  Service  is  just 
a  facilitating  service.  It  has  no  direct  employment-service  function. 
It  does  not  in  any  way  directly  modify  the  State  employment  service 
practice,  but  serves  in  every  way  possible  to  assist  the  States  in 
handling  the  problems. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  The  States  have  set  up  State  employment  services  ? 

Mr.  Clague.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  part  of  that  service  is  financed  by  the  Federal 
Government  ? 

Mr.  Clague.  A  very  large  proportion  of  it.  Through  our  Social 
Security  Board  we  make  grants  to  the  States  for  unemployment  com- 
pensation and  for  the  employment  services.  They  are  100-percent 
grants — entirely  Federal — for  paying  the  salaries  of  State  officials 
engaged  in  that  work. 

states  match  federal  funds 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  that  true  of  both  the  unemployment  compensation 
and  the  State  employment  services  ? 

Mr.  Clague.  With  this  modification,  that  there  still  remains  the 
Wagner-Peyser  fund,  which  is  $3,000,000  a  year  of  Federal  money 
available  for  matching  by  State  funds  on  the  50-50  basis.  One  of  the 
Social  Security  Board's  requirements  is  that  any  State  which  gets  a 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3569 

100-percent  grant  must  first  pay  a  proportionate  amount  to  tliat  $3,- 
000,000 ;  so  tliat  what  finally  liappens  is  tliat  the  State  puts  up  its  frac- 
tion of  the  $3,000,000.  They  match  that  with  the  $3,000,000  of  Wag- 
ner-Peyser money.  That  goes  into  the  fund,  and  whether  it  is  for  the 
Employment  Service  or  for  unemployment  compensation,  it  is  paid  out 
of  that  Federal  fund.  To  that  extent,  there  is  a  small  State  fund 
represented  in  the  total  amount.  It  runs  at  the  present  time  to  about 
5  percent  of  the  total  administrative  cost  of  the  entire  system. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is  for  administrative  cost? 

Mr.  Clague.  Yes,  sir.  Prior  to  the  Reorganization  Act  of  July  1939 
the  Service  was  separated.  The  United  States  Employment  Service 
was  in  the  Department  of  Labor,  and  the  unemployment  compensation 
work  was  centered  in  tlie  Social  Security  Board.  I  should  explain, 
however,  that  prior  to  that  time  the  States  and  both  Federal  agencies, 
the  Social  Security  Board  and  the  Department  of  Labor,  agreed  that 
they  should  achieve  an  integration  of  the  service  in  the  different  States. 
The  Social  Security  Board  for  its  part  carried  out  the  clause  of  the 
Social  Security  Act  very  strictly  with  respect  to  the  payment  of  bene- 
fits. I  cannot  quote  the  clause  exactly,  but  in  substance  it  says  that 
the  Social  Security  Board  shall  administer  the  payment  of  the  benefit 
payments  through  the  Employment  Service  or  such  other  agency  as 
the  Board  may  select. 

In  every  single  State  the  Board  has  selected  employment  offices,  so, 
in  reference  to  our  unemployment-insurance  program,  the  idea  was  to 
set  up  in  every  1  of  the  51  jurisdictions  an  employment  service.  I 
think  there  were  some  two  dozen  States  that  had  a  State  service  before 
our  system  was  set  up. 

The  rest  of  the  program  was  that  of  the  National  Reemployment 
Service,  a  Federal  program. 

With  the  Board's  regulations  and  cooperation  of  the  Department  of 
Labor,  the  effect  was  to  set  up  in  every  State  an  employment  service, 
largely  financed  with  social-security  funds,  so  as  to  have  the.  two 
closely  tied  together.  They  are  either  in  a  State  department  of  labor 
or  associated  with  the  State  unemployment  association  or  commission. 
There  are  very  few  States  in  which  they  are  not  definitely  tied  together 
in  a  single  agency. 

EMPLOYMENT  UNITS  CONSOLIDATED 

At  the  Federal  level  the  United  States  Employment  Service  was 
moved  to  the  Social  Security  Board,  and  our  Boarcl  felt  very  strongly 
the  desirability  of  bringing  these  two  organizations  closely  together, 
so  they  put  them  in  the  same  bureau,  the  Bureau  of  Employment 
Security.  So,  in  every  respect,  they  are  a  single  integrated  organiza- 
tion. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Who  is  responsible  for  determining  whether  the 
workers  in  one  State  may  be  referred  to  employers  or  an  employment 
agency  in  another  State  ? 

Mr.  Clague.  If  we  can  control  it,  it  comes  through  our  clearance 
mechanism.  What  ordinarily  happens  is  this,  and  it  is  happening 
every  day:  An  order  comes  in  from  an  employer  in  a  certain  com- 


oryQ  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

munity,  perhaps  in  one  of  the  new  Army  camps,  or  a  defense  industry. 
This  order  is  given  to  our  local  employment  office  in  that  community. 
That  office  tried  to  fill  the  order  from  local  men.  Our  first  preference 
is  to  fill  such  an  order  locally.  If  that  cannot  be  done,  then  we  start 
out  in  widening  circles.  In  the  course  of  that  clearance  that  office 
contacts  a  nearby  office  to  endeavor  to  have  that  order  filled.  If  they 
cannot  do  that,  then  they  pass  it  on  to  the  State  headquarters.  They 
try  the  State-wide  clearance  to  find  whether  there  are  any  offices  in 
the  State  who  can  fill  that  order.  If  not,  it  then  moves  to  our  Federal 
regional  clearance  machinery,  and  there  it  is  in  the  Nation-wide 
system.  We  might  place  the  order  a  thousand  miles  away ;  wherever 
we  know  we  would  have  such  men  available  we  would  send  the  requisi- 
tions to  those  offices  and  get  them  to  find  out  what  they  have  available, 
and  those  men  would  move  to  such  localities. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  said  that  preference  is  given  to  workers  in  a 
local  community  first? 

Mr.  Clague.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Spakkman.  Or  in  that  particular  State. 

migratory  workers  needed  in  defense 

Mr.  Clague.  As  I  said,  we  work  out  in  ever-widening  circles.  We 
think  the  least  migration  is  most  desirable,  and  we  carry  out  that 
policy  to  the  maximum  extent.  We  try  to  prevent  excess  migration, 
but,  of  course,  sometimes  we  do  not  find  the  men  in  a  particular  locality 
or  State. 

Take  the  recent  expansion  in  the  shipbuilding  industry,  for  instance. 
That  involved,  for  the  most  part,  work  on  the  east  coast,  and  it  is 
obvious  that  as  soon  as  we  exhausted  the  supply  on  the  Atlantic  sea- 
board we  had  to  go  inland  in  order  to  secure  the  required  number  of 
men.  It  was  evident  that  there  were  some  people  with  shipbuilding 
experience  which  they  had  acquired  years  ago  who  might  be  in  some 
of  the  inland  or  middle-western  communities.  So,  under  our  clearance 
system,  we  were  able  to  bring  them  to  the  coast.  We  always  get  them, 
as  far  as  we  can,  from  the  nearest  available  center. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Has  this  policy  been  put  into  effect  or  operated  in 
Colorado  with  reference  to  the  sugar-beet  workers?  I  ask  that  ques- 
tion because  at  the  hearing  we  held  in  Lincoln,  Nebr.,  there  was  some 
testimony  with  reference  to  the  operation  of  the  employment  service 
in  connection  with  the  sugar-beet  workers. 

Mr.  Clague.  I  think  I  would  like  to  answer  that  question  definitely 
enough  to  show  where  we  come  in  and  how  this  sugar-beet  problem 
affects  us. 

In  the  first  place,  the  migration  may  be  carried  on  without  our  con- 
trol or  without  the  use  of  our  machinery.  Many  employers  do  not 
recruit  through  our  service.  They  may  have  a  recruiting  system  of 
their  own.  They  may  have  labor  scouts  or  agents  who  pick  up  labor, 
or  they  may  advertise  in  newspapers  far  afield. 

Mr.'  Parsons.  In  many  instances  that  is  done,  more  in  Michigan 
than  in  Colorado. 

Mr.  Clague.  That  is  right.  They  probably  do  recruit  from  far 
afield.    Frequently  they  want  to  bring  m  migratory  labor  which  will 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3571 

migrate  out  when  the  season  is  over.  Under  those  circumstances  the 
Employment  Service  can  do  very  little  about  it.  We  do  not  attempt 
to,  nor  can  we  delimit  that  migration.  If  it  does  come  through  our 
office,  if  the  employers  have  selected  our  service  to  work  for  them,  we 
do  try  to  regulate  this  internal  migration.  But  it  is  true  that  many 
established  lines  of  migration  are  already  in  operation.  I  mean,  for 
instance,  that  there  is  a  flow  of  workers  from  Mexico  into  New  Mexico, 
and  then  on  to  California,  and  then  from  New  Mexico  to  Colorado, 
and  then  further  north. 

CX>NTROL  OF  MIGRATION 

Our  ideal  system  is  that  we  would  have  such  a  system  for  the  indus- 
trial areas.  We  would  have  the  theory  of  the  ever-widening  circle, 
and,  as  far  as  possible,  have  home  labor,  and  it  would  be  recruited  in 
advance.  We  would  have  it  all  spotted  in  advance,  and  when  we  knew 
how  many  workers  were  needed  in  the  Colorado  beet  fields,  we  would 
have  all  lined  up  in  our  offices  people  who  would  be  available  in  that 
particular  area,  and  then  when  the  demand  ran  beyond  the  supply  we 
would  bring  in  what  was  needed.  Then  we  would  have  no  labor  surplus 
in  that  community,  provided  we  controlled  any  migration  that  might 
occur. 

At  present  we  are  in  the  intermediate  stage  of  working  out  an  ideal 
system  of  supplying  the  demand  from  local  labor  as  far  as  possible 
and  limiting  the  migration  to  the  workers  needed  to  supply  the  demand 
at  a  particular  place. 

Mr.  Parsons.  In  that  connection,  at  some  of  the  other  hearings,  we 
developed  the  fact  that  in  many  instances  the  employers  preferred 
out-of-State  labor  to  their  own  local  labcxr. 

For  instance,  in  New  Jersey  we  found  that  several  yearg  ago  the 
local  labor  did  the  potato  picking,  but  now  the  youth  in  many  instances 
will  not  do  the  picking,  so  they  have  to  import  out-of-State  labor  to  do 
the  work.    We  found  them  taking  labor  from  Pennsylvania. 

We  found  the  same  thing  at  our  hearing  in  Chicago,  in  connection 
with  the  Michigan  sugar-beet  fields.  To  what  extent  have  the  employ- 
ment offices  sought  to  eliminate  that  out-of-State  migration? 

Mr.  Clague.  To  a  certain  extent  we  have  tried  to  eliminate  that 
migration  and  tried  to  build  up  good  will  and  encourage  employment 
of  local  labor,  and  if  we  are  in  the  picture,  if  the  employer  has  used 
us,  we  constantly  go  to  the  employer  to  get  his  business. 

On  the  other  hand,  if  he  does  not  want  to  use  us,  there  is  nothing  we 
can  do  about  it.  We  keep  going  to  him  to  get  him  to  let  us  handle  the 
job,  because  we  think  we  can  arrange  a  more  orderly  system  than  he 
can. 

If  he  works  with  us,  we  use  our  regular  machinery  and  our  method 
in  trying  to  have  him  use  local  labor. 

Generally  speaking,  you  will  find,  in  the  cases  you  cite,  that  it  may 
be  a  wage  and  labor  standards  question.  He  may  have  the  feeling 
that  the  outside  labor  he  can  bring  in  will  work  for  lower  wages  and 
longer  hours,  or  under  less  favorable  conditions.  Under  those  circum- 
stances, we  have  no  control  over  it.    We  do  not  set  wage  rates  and  do 


260370 — 41 — pt.  9- 


3^72  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

not  want  to.  We  would  usually  use  persuasion,  and  would  use  a 
maximum  amount  of  persuasion,  but  still  he  might  insist  on  bringing 
it  in  from  the  outside. 

We  would  then  exercise  our  judgment  as  to  whether  we  would  bring 
it  in  or  tell  him  to  bring  it  in  himself,  and  if  we  received  another  order 
we  would  probably  refuse  that  order,  and  he  would  probably  undertake 
to  bring  them  in  himself. 

MICHIGAN  EMPLOYERS  HIRE  TEXAS  LABOR 

Mr.  Parsons.  We  found  in  Chicago,  or  we  were  told,  that  the  em- 
ployers in  Michigan  who  desired  workers  in  their  beet  fields  preferred 
the  Texas  workers  to  any  other  class  of  people. 

Mr.  Clague.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  their  local  health  authorities  were  cooperating 
with  their  local  private  employment  agency  in  going  to  Texas  and 
making  physical  examinations  before  they  brought  field  workers  from 
Texas  to  Michigan. 

We  also  found  at  Oklahoma  City  that  the  Texas  State  employment 
offices  were  rendering  very  great  service  in  that  respect.  I  believe  that 
during  the  last  3  or  4  years  they  claimed  .they  had  filled  over  half  a 
million  jobs.  Of  course,  those  were  part-time  or  seasonal  jobs,  in  most 
instances. 

Mr.  Clagtje.  The  Texas  service  is  perhaps  one  of  the  best  and  most 
effective  placement  services  in  existence. 

Mr.  Parsons.  It  so  impressed  me. 

Mr.  Clague.  They  have  very  good  control  in  Texas  of  the  fann- 
labor  migration,  and  they  do  make  hundreds  of  thousands  of  place- 
ments every  year. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  made  some  reference  to  your  work  with  the 
National  Defense  Commission.  Are  you  functioning  directly  in  help- 
ing the  various  defense  projects  to  obtain  a  proper  labor  supply  ? 

JOB  placements  in  defense  industries 

Mr.  Clague.  Yes;  we  are  in  the  closest  and  most  direct  relationship 
to  the  National  Defense  Commission,  particularly  with  Mr.  Hillman's 
office.  The  members  of  our  staff  sit  with  his  staff  three  or  four  times  a 
week.  We  have  directed  our  operations  to  provide  placements  in  de- 
fense industries,  because  the  load  and  volume  of  reemployment  in  the 
country  is  higher  than  it  has  been  in  years,  if  not  for  all  time ;  I  mean, 
the  monthly  rate  at  which  employment  is  stepping  up.  So  we  are  now 
approaching  the  situation  where  a  tight  labor  market  is  in  prospect, 
and  therefore  with  a  greater  need  for  the  careful  handling  of  that 
market. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  you  make  any  effort  to  hold  down  the  flow  of 
your  labor?  Two  or  three  times  in  our  hearings  reference  has  been 
made  to  the  conditions  in  Camp  Blanding,  Fla.,  and  my  impression  is 
that  entirely  too  many  people  had  flowed  in  there.  Do  you  make  any 
effort  to  hold  that  down  ? 

Mr.  Clague.  Yes;  we  exercise  every  influence  we  can  to  hold  that 
down.     As  soon  as  a  new  project  opens  up  we  go  to  the  employers  and 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3573 

endeavor  to  get  them  to  give  us  the  job  of  handling  their  labor  supply 
for  them.  If  they  will  do  that,  we  then  start  our  machinery  of  local 
placement  and  emigration,  in  the  proportion,  and  at  the  time,  and 
in  the  way  needed  by  them. 

There  are  two  things  that  handicap  us  in  that  respect.  An  employer 
can  deal  with  us  directly,  or  he  may  also  deal  on  his  own.  He  may 
put  an  advertisement  in  a  paper  for  workers.  That  happened  the  other 
day  with  respect  to  a  camp  in  Teimessee.  An  advertisement  appeared 
in  an  Atlanta  paper.  Obviously,  we  cannot  regulate  the  flow  of  per- 
sons who  respond  to  such  an  advertisement.  They  will  go  to  the 
camps,  looking  for  work,  and  they  are  dealing  with  him,  in  addition 
to  dealing  with  us.  He  puts  them  on  as  he  needs  them,  and  in  that 
respect  he  can  control  it. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Suppose  you  know  there  is  an  oversupply,  for  in- 
stance, at  Camp  Blanding,  or  any  other  camp ;  is  there  anything  which 
would  prevent  your  service  from  inserting  ads  in  papers  advising 
people  that  there  is  no  need  of  going  to  such  a  place  for  work  ? 

Mr.  Clague.  I  had  not  thought  of  that  particular  matter.  We  try 
to  get  those  people  who  have  come  in  and  registered  at  the  oflSces  we 
have  set  up  in  those  places.  We  have  1,500  full-time  offices  and  3,000 
part-time  offices  throughout  the  country. 

If  we  do  not  have  a  full-time  office  we  put  a  man  there  to  try  to 
help  people  to  register  in  their  particular  areas,  and  through  our 
Nation-wide  clearance  we  would  pool  those  people. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  A  great  deal  of  the  trouble  has  been  due  to  the  fact 
that  they  moved  from  their  homes  out  there. 

Mr.  Clague.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  was  impressed  by  this  condition  in  California, 
In  one  of  the  migrant  camps  in  southern  California  a  number  of  peo- 
ple had  heard  that  there  was  work  on  the  Oregon  border,  and  they 
had  driven  up  there  in  great  numbers  to  find  work,  which  lasted  only 
a  few  days,  and  then  they  had  to  come  back.  Naturally,  there  was 
a  great  expenditure  out  of  their  funds  in  making  that  trip. 

All  around  over  the  country  at  the  hearings  we  have  held  we  have 
heard  considerable  criticism  of  the  Employment  Service — I  probably 
should  not  say  criticism,  but  deploring  the  fact  that  the  Employment 
Service  was  not  functioning  in  the  way  that  most  people  seemed  to 
think  it  might  function  in  gathering  information  and  making  it  avail- 
able to  all  these  people  looking  for  work.  It  seems  to  me  some  plan 
could  be  worked  out  whereby  the  Employment  Service  could  make 
that  information  available  before  a  worker  goes  to  a  place  and  finds 
that  he  is  a  surplus  worker. 

REPORTING  SYSTEM  FOR  JOB  INFORMATION 

Mr.  Clague.  That  is  right,  and  if  we  handle  the  job  we  ought  to 
know  the  circumstances  imder  which  he  is  being  sent. 

We  are  perfecting  such  a  system.  We  have  a  reporting  system  from 
every  one  of  the  1,500  offices. 

We  have  a  visiting  program  in  connection  with  employers  in  that 
■\dcinity  by  which  our  regular  workers,  in  the  course  of  their  normal 


QKy4  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

contacts,  find  out  what  labor  an  employer  will  need  in  the  next  60 
days,  for  instance.  .,  ,,     » 

All  of  that  material  is  sent  to  Washington  and  made  available  for 
ourselves  and  for  the  Defense  Commission. 

We  have  a  picture  every  month  of  the  situation  throughout  the 
country  as  to  the  labor  supply  and  labor  shortages,  the  number  of 
jobs  that  are  available  for  transients,  and  so  forth. 

Now,  we  would  not  send  this  kind  of  a  person  from  lower  Cali- 
fornia to  Oregon  on  a  chance,  or  on  the  basis  of  hearsay  knowledge 
of  that  job.  I    1  1  1 

If  that  sort  of  a  job  was  handled  by  us  it  would  have  come  through 
our  clearance  system,  through  the  local  office  in  Oregon,  and  that  local 
office  would  know  what  kind  of  a  job  was  open,  and  they  would  be 
able  to  tell  a  man  about  that  job.  The  whole  thing  would  thus  be 
handled  in  an  orderly  fashion. 

I  would  not  say  that  what  I  am  describing  is  our  ideal  system.  I 
would  not  say  we  would  not  slip  here  and  there,  but  there  would  be  an 
employment-office  manager  there  who  would  give  careful  considera- 
tion to  those  details. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Of  course,  I  realize,  with  reference  to  the  person 
handled  through  your  office— I  am  speaking  of  it  from  the  standpoint 
of  the  information  you  could  give  persons  who  may  come  to  you ;  if 
you  find  out  that  the  work  is  of  a  limited  character,  why  could  you 
not  post  a  notice  making  the  information  available  so  that  a  person 
who  may  just  casually  come  in  contact  with  your  office  may  know  that 
it  would  not  be  desirable  to  look  for  that  particular  work.  What  I 
am  thinking  of  is  getting  information  to  as  many  people  as  possible 
ahead  of  time.  .  t,     rr.  t  i 

Mr.  Clague.  What  you  describe  is  done  in  a  State  like  Texas.  I  do 
not  know  that  they  use  posters,  but  they  do  use  itinerant  agents  who 
are  moving  around  wherever  migration  is  occurring. 

The  Service  does  put  out  men  who  are  available  at  street  corners 
and  at  little  places  along  the  road,  and  they  furnish  information.  In 
all  States  we  are  not  as  well  developed  as  we  should  be. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  you  ever  use  newspaper  articles,  in  the  form  of 
news  items,  for  which  the  newspapers  give  you  free  space? 

Mr.  Clague.  I  do  not  recall  that,  but  Mr.  Carpenter  can  tell  you 
about  that. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MARTIN  F.  CARPENTER,  CHIEF  OF  EMPLOYMENT 
SERVICE  DIVISION,  BUREAU  OF  EMPLOYMENT  SECURITY, 
SOCIAL  SECURITY  BOARD 

Mr.  Carpenter.  In  connection  with  the  use  of  newspapers,  we  have 
had  some  items  inserted. 

In  one  State,  the  State  of  Indiana,  with  which  I  am  particularly 
familiar,  in  1  month  we  had  over  340  articles  which  told  of  the  supply 
of  the  labor  market  in  Indiana  and  surrounding  States,  particularly 
giving  information  as  to  the  automobile  industry. 

During  the  season  of  the  canning  industry  we  did  have  a  release, 
particularly  to  the  southern  Indiana  papers,  which  was  also  carried 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3575 

in  the  Kentucky  papers,  and  we  dealt  with  the  Kentucky  service  in 
them,  and  they  got  information  concerning  the  situation  in  the  central 
parts  of  Indiana. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Did  the  newspapers  use  your  articles  ? 

Mr.  Carpenter.  Very  definitely  so.  We  had  345  articles  in  that  one 
State  alone  in  1  month. 

Mr.  Parsons.  I  think  the  newspapers,  if  the  matter  were  explained 
to  them,  can  always  use  such  items  as  items  of  news.  It  helps  fill  their 
columns  and  renders  a  service  to  the  public,  and  that  is  what  a  news- 
paper, in  part,  is  for. 

Mr.  Carpenter.  Especially  if  it  is  well  developed  by  putting  it  into 
such  form  that  they  can  easily  pick  it  up.  That  is  why  I  think  we 
should  put  greater  stress  on  our  national  service. 

Mr.  Parsons.  The  thought  has  occurred  to  me  in  connection  with 
all  these  hearings  that  if  the  Employment  Service  would  utilize  the 
newspapers,  especially  the  local  papers,  you  could  get  this  information 
to  the  general  public  in  very  good  shape,  and  in  addition  to  that,  of 
course,  you  could  probably  post  bulletins  on  bulletin  boards  on  all 
public  places,  such  as  post  offices  and  courthouses. 

Mr.  Carpenter.  There  is  one  precaution  that  we  have  to  be  careful 
about  in  that  connection,  and  that  is  that  the  situation  changes  from 
week  to  week.  In  other  words,  the  condition  in  some  places  in  the 
canning  industry  changes  almost  overnight,  dependent  on  various 
factors. 

JOB  NEWS  broadcast  BY  RADIO 

Mr,  Parsons.  It  only  lasts  a  few  days  in  certain  areas,  in  connection 
with  certain  products. 

Mr.  Carpenter.  I  should  also  mention  the  fact  that  we  also  use  the 
radio  extensively.  We  had  in  Indiana  14  different  radio  stations 
giving  us  the  time  we  needed  for  our  spot  announcements. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Many  times,  however,  the  radio  information  conveys 
a  lot  of  misinformation.  I  do  not  say  that  in  any  criticism  of  the 
broadcasting  stations. 

For  instance,  I  have  been  receiving  mail,  and  I  assume  a  number  of 
my  colleagues  have,  stating  that  people  have  heard  over  the  radio  that 
such  and  such  a  type  of  men  are  needed  for  national  defense,  for 
instance,  in  connection  with  clothing  in  the  Quartermaster  Corps  of 
the  Army,  or  in  connection  with  food,  also  in  the  Quartermaster  Corps. 
When  an  investigation  is  made  it  is  found  that  the  gate  is  closed  down 
here  to  those  men,  so  that  that  information  is  quickly  developed  into 
misinformation. 

I  mention  that  incidentally  because  it  has  come  up  in  i-egard  to  some 
notices  in  the  last  few  weeks. 

Mr.  Carpenter.  That  is  why  we  are  very  careful  about  radio  anr 
nouncements,  unless  we  can  be  there  ourselves  and  be  responsible.  We 
rather  avoid  using  the  radio,  except  for  standard  spot  announcements 
that  universally  hold  true  in  standard  practice. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  connectioni  with  the  use  of  newspapers,  most  of 
the  news  items  I  have  read,  coming  from  the  Employment  Service, 
have  had  to  do  with  the  number  of  placements  they  have  made. 


3576  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

I  realize  that  makes  nice  reading,  but  it  seems  to  me,  for  the  good 
actually  done — perhaps  we  might  brag  a  little  that  we  have  kept  these 
people  from  spending  money  and  going  to  a  place  looking  for  a  job 
that  was  not  there.  It  seems  to  me  they  might  use  some  of  the  pub- 
licity along  that  line. 

EMPLOYMENT  PROMOTION  JUSTIFIABLE 

Mr.  Carpenter.  I  think  the  newspapers  are  getting  so  much  infor- 
mation that  it  is  difficult  for  them  to  use  it  efficiently.  In  the  Employ- 
ment Service,  in  our  promotional  work,  we  have  more  justification  for 
telling  what  we  have  done  and  what  we  would  like  to  have  done  than 
perhaps  other  agencies  have. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  would  like  to  ask  both  of  you  gentlemen  a  question. 
Would  you  recommend  that  hereafter,  in  connection  with  any  appro- 
priations for  national-defense  contracts.  Congress  should  specify  that 
the  United  States  Employment  Service  shall  take  charge  of  employ- 
ment ? 

Of  course,  the  very  nature  of  the  defense  contracts  involves  great 
public  interest. 

It  is  apparent  that  there  is  a  tremendous  transient  problem  which 
is  created  under  the  present  system. 

Wliy  not  turn  that  employment  over  to  you,  other  than  that  for  those 
who  live  within  a  certain  specified  radius  of  the  actual  work  ? 

TESTIMONY  OF  EWAN  CLAGUE— Kesumed 

Mr.  Clague.  There  has  been  a  good  deal  of  discussion  in  our  service 
in  connection  with  the  National  Defense  Commission  on  that  question, 
as  to  how  far  we  should  go  in  setting  up  some  control  on  employers  in 
the  recruitment  of  labor. 

We  have  not  thought  of  going  so  far  as  you  indicate  in  gi\^ng  us  a 
complete  monopoly  of  the  control  of  the  labor  market. 

We  have  seriously  discussed  going  part  way. 

For  example,  one  formula  that  has  recently  received  a  good  deal  of 
attention  in  our  staff  was  in  connection  with  allowing  an  employer  to 
recruit  locally,  as  he  sees  fit.  He  has  many  of  the  processes  that  he  has 
used  in  the  past  and  can  use  again.  Many  of  the  local  people  formerly 
worked  for  him,  and  he  writes  to  them  directly.  We  would  not  attempt 
to  have  those  pass  through  our  office,  but  perhaps  make  the  requirement 
that  before  he  recruits  outside  of  this  locality  he  would  have  to  come  to 
us  and  give  us  that  job,  and  if  we  could  fill  the  jobs  he  has  we  would  do ; 
or  if  we  could  not  do  that  we  would  give  him  a  release  and  let  him  try  to 
get  them  in  any  way  he  could. 

Sometimes  an  employer  wants  men  who  are  very  definitely  skilled. 
We  have  none. 

Some  of  the  radio  announcements  are  for  occupations  for  which 
there  are  not  in  any  files  the  names  of  unemployed  men  in  the  United 
States.  Therefore,  we  cannot  help  that  employer.  In  that  case  an 
employer's  advertisement  in  the  newspapers  is  reasonable,  because  it 
brings  in  employed  persons  and  puts  their  names  in  our  files,  who  now 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3577 

leave  their  present  work  and  go  to  this  employer.  Perhaps  it  is  due  to 
higher  wages,  or  perhaps  it  is  work  which  they  prefer.  So  under  those 
controlled  circumstances,  this  advertisement  will  not  do  any  harm,  be- 
cause it  will  not  stimulate  a  large  number  of  persons  to  move. 

MIGRANT  EMPLOYMENT  CONTROL  LIMITED 

I  think  if  we  have  an  employer  required  to  clear  with  us  before 
he  tries  outside,  that  is  about  as  far  as  we  might  go.  I  think  that 
that  might  give  us  enough  authority  to  enable  us  to  handle  it. 
Whether  we  need  legislation  for  that  purpose,  or  can  do  that  through 
the  wording  of  contracts,  I  would  not  presume  to  say. 

Mr.  Curtis.  As  to  your  reference  to  that  particular  angle  of  the 
problem  that  this  committee  is  studying,  the  important  point,  so 
far  as  action  is  concerned,  would  be  that  the  person  would  have  to 
clear  through  the  local  employment  agency,  where  he  was,  before 
he  would  be  recognized  at  a  distant  point  in  comiection  with  a  job. 
We  would  not  have  to  pass  any  law  prohibiting  him  from  traveling, 
or  doing  anything  within  his  rights  as  a  free  American  citizen,  but 
he  would  understand  that  he  would  have  no  chance  for  a  defense  job 
unless  he  was  cleared  through  an  employment  agency  where  he  now  is. 

Mr.  Clague.  Yes.  That  is  the  other  side  of  the  picture,  and  I  would 
like  to  make  an  explanation  of  what  we  think  of  that  point,  as  we 
do  not  want  to  have  a  requirement  which  would  mean  that  we  controlled 
the  movement  of  every  worker,  but  in  the  normal  operation  of  our 
service  to  have  a  pretty  effective  control  from  that  point  of  view  if  the 
employer  is  dealing  with  us. 

May  I  make  that  clear?  The  employer  is  really  putting  his  busi- 
ness in  our  hands;  for  example,  let  us  say  one  of  these  camps  will 
put  up  a  sign,  an  ordinary  sigTi,  stating  that  all  of  his  employees 
are  recruited  directly  through  the  employment  office,  that  all  people 
who  come  to  a  plant  to  get  in  or  to  get  employment  are  interviewed 
and  secured  through  the  employment  office. 

Now  if  that  is  the  situation,  then  what  can  we  say  to  anybody 
who  may  never  have  heard  of  the  employment  service,  but  who  goes 
to  the  employer's  j^lant  seeking  a  job?  If  he  sees  a  sign  or  is  told 
to  go  back  to  the  local  office  in  this  new  plant  and  when  the  need 
arises  they  will  employ  him,  naturally,  he  is  going  to  go  back  to 
that  plant  continually  to  seek  employment.  But,  if  he  comes  to  us, 
we  can  tell  him  whether  there  is  any  immediate  need  for  his  service, 
and  if  not,  he  can  go  back  to  his  home  town  and  that  we  will  give 
him  notice,  that  we  have  his  name  on  the  list  and  will  notify  him 
when  he  is  needed.  In  that  way  he  will  not  need  to  wait  around  the 
place  where  he  is  seeking  employment. 

But  if  the  employer,  whether  he  deals  with  us  or  not,  hires  those 
who  just  wait,  naturally  these  people  seeking  employment  will  not 
feel  at  liberty  to  go  home  because  they  will  have  the  feeling  that  the 
man  who  is  at  the  gate  in  the  morning  or  next  week  will  be  the  man 
who  will  be  taken  on,  and  so  our  attempt  to  meet  this  difficulty  is 
perfectly  useless.  But  if  we  can  somehow  have  an  arrangement  with 
the  employers  that  when  employment  opportunities  become  available 


3578 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


we  can  follow  this  method  of  putting  the  men  on,  who  have  been  on 
the  list,  it  will  enable  us  to  convince  these  men  that  it  will  not  be 
necessary  for  them  to  stay  around  in  order  to  seek  work  and  receive 
appointment. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Permit  me  to  state  for  the  record  that  this  suggestion, 
while  it  was  rather  crudely  thought  out  or  made,  and  was  not  from 
the  standpoint  of  regimenting  the  people  in  their  movement,  but 
it  would  merely  move  the  place  of  application  from  the  scene  of  the 
job  to  the  home. 

Mr.  Clague.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Curtis.  As  a  service  to  the  applicant. 

Mr.  Clague.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  if  he  understands  that  after  a  few  days,  or  a 
few  weeks,  he  could  come  back  and  get  a  job  at  the  place  he  put 
the  application  in  for,  it  would  represent  a  great  service  to  him. 

Mr.  Clague.  That  is,  right,  if  it  be  remembered  always  that  they 
can  rely  on  the  employer  using  this  service.  Otherwise,  if  he  is  going 
to  take  the  people  who  are  at  the  gate  it  would  mean  we  would 
simply  be  misleading  those  who  had  relied  on  this  service. 

Mr."  Curtis.  But,  since  Congi-ess  makes  provision  for  the  money, 
and  provides  public  money,  it  is  an  activity  in  which  the  public  is 
interested  for  that  reason. 

Mr.  Clague.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  it  seems  to  me  perfectly  proper  for  the  Federal 
Government  to  include  a  stipulation  providing  that  the  applicant 
for  work  should  put  in  his  application  at  the  point  closest  to  him. 

MODIFIED  CONTROL  OF  MIGRATION  DESIRABLE 

Mr.  Clague.  There  is  no  question  about  the  desirability  of  some 
regulation  or  modified  control,  but  just  what  that  should  be  would 
have  to  be  thought  out  very  carefully,  and  we  ourselves  do  not  feel 
like  taking  any  greater  control  than  is  absolutely  necessary  in  order 
to  meet  the  demand. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Clague,  we  could  continue  all  day  in  this  field, 
which  is  certainly  a  very  interesting  subject,  and  you  have  gone 
down  to  the  veiy  roots  of  this  problem,  but  we  are  going  to  have 
to  hear  some  other  witnesses. 

There  ai^  one  or  two  questions  I  wanted  to  ask  you  for  the  record 
and  will  ask  you  to  be  just  as  brief  as  possible  in  your  answers. 

Wlien  this  defense  program  is  over,  when  these  various  defense 
projects  are  finished,  I  suppose  it  is  only  reasonable  to  expect  that 
we  are  going  to  have  considerable  labor  thrown  out  of  employment, 
and  would  you  care  to  explain  what  plans  have  been  made  if  any 
to  meet  that  situation  ? 

Mr.  Clague.  Yes.  We  expect  that,  as  in  the  past,  when  the  emer- 
gency is  over  there  will  be  a  downward  movement  just  as  there_  is  an 
upward  movement  now,  and  for  that  reason  the  unemployment  insur- 
ance system  is  one  of  the  cushions  that  we  expect  at  this  time  will 
at  least  afford  a  measure  of  relief  that  we  did  not  have  in  1929, 
1930,  and  1931 ;  that  that  will  be  not  only  a  facility  that  will  enable 
them  to  place  themselves  in  employinent,  but  also  perhaps  have  some 
effect  on  business  conditions   and  in   maintaining  the   purchasing 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3579 

power  and  perhaps  preventing,  to  a  degree,  a  repetition  of  our 
former  difficulty.  I  would  say  we  are  quite  conscious  of  the  fact 
and  the  matter  is  being  given  considerable  thought. 

PLACEMENT    PROGRAM    FOR    ARMY    SELECTEES 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Will  you  be  in  position  to  take  care  of  the  se- 
lectees returning  from  service  at  the  end  of  the  year  ? 

Mr.  Clague.  Yes;  we  have  already  been  in  touch  with  the  selective 
service  organization,  and  Mr.  Dykstra's  office  and  I  think  we  are 
jointly  working  out  a  system  which  will  help  them  in  endeavoring  to 
place  every  one  of  these  men  who  do  not  go  back  to  their  former  jobs. 

Mr.  Sparkman,  The  task  of  meeting  the  employment  problem, 
connected  with  the  migi-atory  problem,  is  not  one  that  calls  for 
additional  legislation,  is  it?  It  is  a  matter  of  employees,  and  pro- 
viding you  with  sufficient  funds  and  setting  up  your  own  policy 
and  rules  and  regulations. 

Mr.  Clague.  I  believe  we  have  enough  legislation  to  do  everything 
that  is  needed  with  the  possible  exception  of  the  last  few  questions 
that  were  raised  here  on  that  matter.  We  estimate  that  in  the  neigh- 
borhood of  $3,000,000  additional  administrative  funds  are  needed 
to  render  a  really  adequate  and  effective  Farm  Placement  Service. 
Such  a  service  requires  strengthening  our  local  offices  in  many  places, 
the  establishment  of  temporary  offices  and  expansion  of  personnel 
during  periods  of  peak  labor  demands  occasioned  by  seasonal  agri- 
cultural activities,  and  increased  supervision  and  control  of  move- 
ments of  migratory  workers  by  the  Federal  Farm  Placement  Service. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Clague. 

Mr.*  Clague.  Thank  you. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DK.  E.  R.  COFFEE,  PUBLIC  HEALTH  SERVICE 

Mr.  Curtis.  Dr.  Coffee,  we  have  received  your  statement  and  it 
will  be  introduced  into  the  record  at  this  point,  after  which  we  shall 
want  to  ask  you  some  questions. 

(The  statement  is  as  follows:) 

STATEMENT  BY  DR.  THOMAS  PARRAN,  SURGEON  GENERAL,  UNITED 
STATES  PUBLIC  HEALTH  SERVICE 

Health  Needs  of  Interstate  Migration  of  Destitute  Citizeins 

Destitute  citizens  who  migrate  from  State  to  State  have  a  greater  degree  of 
ill  health  and,  with  the  exception  of  beneficiaries  of  the  Federal  Government, 
receive  less  medical  care  than  that  experienced  by  other  needy  citizens.  This 
statement  is  based  upon  the  findings  of  A  Study  of  Medical  Problems  Associated 
With  Transients  issued  by  the  Public  Health  Service  in  Public  Health  Bulletin 
No.  258. 

There  are  several  factors  leading  to  this  very  high  rate  of  disabling  illness. 
Transients  are  more  likely  than  residents  to  sufCer  accidents  while  traveling  from 
place  to  place ;  they  are  exposed  to  the  risk  of  communicable  diseases  to  a  much 
greater  extent  than  are  residents,  who  do  not  live  under  the  insanitary  conditions 
often  found  in  camps,  shelters,  and  other  forms  of  temporary  habitation  ;  and  they 
are  deprived,  because  of  their  lack  of  economic  resources,  of  adequate  shelter  and 
clothes,  and  proper  food. 

Transients  receive  less  medical  care  than  do  other  needy  citizens  in  the  main 
because  of  their  inability  to  satisfy  existing  settlement  laws.    However,  the  lack 


2^gQ  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

of  adequate  funds  available  to  the  States  and  to  local  communities  for  medical 
care  services  has  a  considerable  influence  in  determining  the  amount  of  services 
rendered.  The  limitations  on  medical  care  serve  in  turn  to  increase  the  incidence 
and  duration  of  their  illnesses. 

This  high  degree  of  ill  health  in  transients,  particularly  m  cases  of  typhoid 
fever,  tuberculosis,  syphilis,  gonorrhea,  malaria,  and  the  other  acute  communicable 
diseases  creates  an  outstanding  health  hazard  to  the  citizens  of  the  communities 
through  which  the  transients  pass  and  in  which  they  temporarily  stop. 

In  addition  to  direct  measures  for  the  rehabilitation  and  an  order  program  for 
employment  and  relief  of  transients,  the  present  cooperative  program  between  the 
Federal  Government  and  the  State  and  local  health  authorities  should  be 
augmented  so  as  to  make  readily  available  to  all  needy  individuals,  including 
transients,  adequate  public-health  facilities,  including  medical  care  and 
hospitalization. 

The  financial  participation  by  the  Federal  Government  in  this  joint  program 
should  be  made  through  funds  made  available  under  title  VI  of  the  Federal  Social 
Security  Act.  This  title  of  the  act  provides  for  grants  in  aid  to  States  for  the 
puiTpose  of  assisting  States,  counties,  health  districts,  and  other  political  sub- 
divisions of  the  States  in  establishing  and  maintaining  adequate  public-health 
services.  The  presence  of  a  considerable  number  of  interstate  transients  in  any 
State  should  be  recognized  as  a  special  health  problem  in  the  allotment  of  these 
funds  to  the  States. 

Additional  Federal  funds  would  be  necessary  to  accomplish  this  purpose. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DR.  E.  R.  COFFEE— Resumed 

Mr.  Curtis.  Dr.  Coffee,  I  have  read  your  statement,  and  note  the 
reference  to  Public  Health  Bulletin  No.  258.  Is  that  a  rather  lengthy 
bulletin  ? 

Dr.  Coffee.  Yes,  it  is.  I  have  it  here  before  me.  It  has  some 
130  pages. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  the  date  of  the  publication? 

Dr.  Coffee.  It  has  just  been  issued.  We  received  it  from  the 
Printing  Office  about  a  week  ago.     It  is  the  1940  issue. 

Mr.  Curtis.  In  that  event  it  v^ould  probably  be  a  waste  to  incor- 
porate that  in  the  hearings,  but  is  there  any  further  identification 
which  needs  to  be  made  at  this  point  so  those  following  the  hearings 
can  thave  access  to  it? 

Dr.  Coffee.  Nothing  further.  The  title  is  "A  Study  of  Medical 
Problems  Associated  With  Transients."  It  is  Public  Health  Bulletin 
No.  258. 

Mr.  Curtis.  It  is  available  in  sufficient  quantities? 

Dr.  Coffee,  Yes. 

MUCH  illness  among  TRANSIENTS 

Mr.  Curtis.  Doctor,  I  have  read  your  statement  and  I  might  say 
that  the  facts  are  quite  well  known  to  this  committee  in  our  field 
hearings.  I  believe  it  is  quite  well  recognized  that  there  is  more 
illness  among  transients,  poor  people,  out  on  the  road,  in  many 
cases  who  have  no  home,  and  who  do  not  have  sufficient  food,  and 
because  they  are  poor  and  unsettled  they  do  not  get  the  free  medical 
attention  which  they  should  have.  At  this  time  we  are  going  to 
take  that  situation  for  granted,  and  I  am  going  to  ask  you  to 
take  a  few  minutes  to  discuss  the  remedy  for  the  situation — for 
better  medical  care  for  transients,  homeless  people,  and  unsettled 
people;  if  you  will  just  direct  your  discussion  to  title  VI  of  the 
Social  Security  Act. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3581 

Dr.  Coffee.  We  feel  that  the  real  problem  of  transients  is  not 
unlike  that  of  poor  residents  of  a  community.  Their  situation,  how- 
ever, is  aggravated  by  the  nature  of  the  conditions  under  which  they 
live,  the  fact  that  they  have  to  travel  from  place  to  place,  making 
them  more  susceptible  to  accident,  to  poor  housing  conditions,  and 
of  course  making  them  susceptible  to  the  ordinary  communicable 
diseases  and  the  filth-borne  diseases.  The  lack  of  economic  resources 
renders  them  susceptible  to  a  condition  which  is  brought  about  from 
lack  of  nutrition. 

Their  big  problem  of  course,  so  far  as  their  inability  to  secure 
such  medical  care  as  they  need  is  not  altogether  because  of  the 
settlement  laws.  Their  problem,  of  course,  is  exaggerated  as  com- 
pared with  people  with  a  more  settled  economic  status  which  of 
course  throws  a  great  medical  burden  on  the  local  agencies  which 
accept  the  responsibility. 

It  is  our  feeling  that  you  cannot  separate  the  medical  care  of 
transients  from  the  medical  care  of  the  residents  of  a  commimity, 
and  we  believe  that  any  program  set  up  should  be  based  upon 
utilizing  local  health  facilities  in  the  community  and  accepting  the 
responsibility  and  having  the  local  community  accept  the  responsibility 
for  the  medical  care  of  the  transients. 

COMMUNITIES  LACK    MEDICAL.   FACILITIES 

I  think  it  is,  of  course,  recognized,  from  studies  that  have  been 
made  heretofore,  that  the  indigent  residents  are  receiving  medical 
care  in  their  communities.  To  be  sure,  some  communities  are  lacking 
in  resources;  many  do  not  have  sufficient  facilities  to  meet  their  own 
problem. 

We  have  had  the  feeling  that  we  can  develop  throughout  the  Na- 
tion additional  full-time  local  health  service,  and  when  I  say  full- 
time  local  health  service  I  mean  health  service  that  puts  its  mem- 
bers on  a  full-time  basis  in  order  to  furnish  qualified  people,  that 
they  in  turn  will  be  able  to  eliminate  many  of  the  unnecessary  dis- 
eases and  illnesses,  and  within  their  resources  can  be  enabled  to  meet 
the  need. 

Mr.  Parsons.  We  learned  of  one  case  in  Florida  of  a  town  with  a 
population  of  5,000  normally,  that  for  half  the  year  its  population 
was  increased  to  10,000  and  that  for  3  months  in  the  year  that  is 
increased  to  15,000,  so  naturally  that  would  present  a  great  health 
problem,  quite  a  medical  problem  for  that  community. 

Dr.  Coffee.  It  would.  Our  study  has  shown,  as  indicated  in 
Bulletin  258,  where  it  is  pointed  out  that  the  big  problem  in  medical 
care  is  in  intrastate  transients;  iii  other  words,  transients  who  stay 
within  the  State. 

JMOBILE  MEDICAL  SERVICE  FOR   MIGRANTS 

It  seems  possible  that  a  program  set  up  on  a  State  level,  providing 
perhaps  mobile  medical  service  for  local  hospital  facilities,  to  follow 
the  migration  of  these  individuals,  could  help  supplement  existing 


3582 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


local  facilities  that  under  ordinary  times  meets  the  problems  of  the 
local  individual  communities.  It  is  recognized,  of  course,  that  it 
would  not  be  possible  to  set  up  permanent  hospital  facilities  and 
permanent  clinical  facilities  to  take  on  the  road  to  care  for  15  or  20 
thousand  people  for  6  weeks  to  3  months  use.  However,  there  would 
seem  to  be  a  need  in  every  community  of  permanent  facilities  to 
meet  its  local  requirements,  to  be  supplemented  to  meet  the  addi- 
tional influx  as  individual  needs  are  shown. 

That  would  require  organization  within  the  States,  without  ques- 
tion, and,  to  meet  the  interstate  problem,  cooperation  between  the 
States  and  the  Federal  Government. 

Mr.  Curtis.  In  reference  to  the  lack  of  medical  care  for  unsettled 
people,  I  assume  that  that  is  in  the  category  of  less  chronic  situa- 
tions such  as  now  exist  and  is  not  spread  over  long  periods  of  time. 
But  are  there  any  States  or  communities  that  refuse  to  give  emer- 
gency treatment  to  unsettled  people? 

Dr.  Coffee.  The  greatest  service,  medical  service,  rendered  to 
transients  by  the  community  has  been  to  the  emergency  cases.  In 
other  words,  to  accident,  obstetric,  and  acute  illnesses. 

We  found  in  our  studies,  and  I  think  it  is  an  interesting  fact,  that 
there  was  a  lower  or  somewhat  decreased  number  of  these  so-called 
degenerative  diseases  among  transients  than  among  the  ordinary 
population  of  comparable  economic  status. 

The  biggest  percentage  of  cases  treated  were  the  acute  emergency 
cases,  perhaps  because  of  the  settlement  laws  and  due  to  the  lack 
of  sufficient  funds.  In  other  words,  practically  all  communities 
would  accept  these  emergency  cases  and  give  them  treatment  where 
it  has  been  absolutely  essential. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  feel  the  emergency  cases  are  lacking  in  medi- 
cal attention  because  of  the  settlement  law  requirements? 

Dr.  Coffee.  Our  studies — we  found  on  an  average  about  5  agencies 
in  the  ordinary  city  that  were  rendering  medical  care,  and  very 
little  attention  was  paid  to  settlement  laws  in  rendering  service  to 
the  so-called  emergency  cases. 

Now,  of  course,  the  cases  that  were  in  the  emergency  class  were 
taken  care  of  regardless  of  settlement  laws,  purely  because  of  the 
human  instinct  of  kindness  to  take  care  of  those  who  were  in  an 
emergency  situation. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  know  what  percentage  of  the  young  men  regis- 
tered for  selective  service  have  been  rejected  because  of  medical 
reasons  ? 

Dr.  Coffee.  No ;  I  do  not.  Those  figures  have  not  been  made  avail- 
able as  yet.  Of  course,  they  are  being  compiled  and  we  hope  to 
liave  them,  but  they  have  not  been  made  available  so  far  as  I  know. 
The  Surgeon  General  of  the  Army  may  be  able  to  provide  them. 

I  might  say  further,  from  the  standpoint  of  title  VI  of  the  Social 
Security  Act,  funds  made  available  by  the  Public  Health  Service  to 
the  States  have  been  used  in  the  main,  since  the  advent  of  the  Social 
Security  Act  and  the  first  appropriation  in  the  spring  of  1936,  by  the 
States  to  build  up  their  medical  service  in  the  rural  areas  because 
the  rural  areas  have  been  neglected  to  a  greater  extent  than  the  large 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3583 

urban  centers.  This  was  not  done  because  of  the  fact  there  were 
greater  health  needs  perhaps  in  the  rural  areas,  but  only  because  of 
the  fact  that  in  setting  up  their  organization  they  had  not  been  able 
to  provide  themselves  with  the  health  facilities  in  many  of  the  rural 
areas  that  had  already  been  provided  in  urban  centers.  And  the 
States  are  developing  a  State- wide  program,  utilizing  a  large  per- 
centage of  the  money  in  organizing  the  health  service  at  the  present 
time,  in  something  over  1,500  counties  in  the  United  States,  of  the 
three-thousand-odd  counties,  which  have  no  full-time  health  service, 
and  to  have  full-time  health  service  now  such  as  a  public-health 
nurse,  a  sanitary  inspector,  public  clinical  service. 

FEDERAL  GRANTS  FOR  MIGRANT  HEALTH  AID 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  what  you  propose  is  that  a  Federal  grant  to  the 
State  be  made,  conditioned  on  the  extension  of  medical  service  to  the 
unsettled,  the  same  as  is  now  given  to  the  destitute  residents. 

Dr.  Coffee.  That  is  right.  In  other  words,  if  it  could  be  possible 
that,  as  an  additional  allotment,  the  stipulation  should  be  made  that 
the  fund  was  made  available  to  provide  for  rendering  medical  public- 
health  service  and  medical  treatment  to  transients  in  the  community. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Are  you  recommending  any  other  legislation  to  supple- 
ment or  to  provide  the  aid  needed  in  dealing  with  the  general  subject 
of  health  treatment? 

Dr.  Coffee.  No  ;  we  have  the  feeling  that  the  whole  problem  is  due 
to  the  lack  of  necessary  funds,  on  the  local  basis,  to  meet  the  situation, 
and  that,  of  course,  somewhat  aggravates  the  local  situation  because 
in  the  spending  of  tax  money  there  is  a  feeling  that  they  should  care 
for  their  own,  who  are  residents  of  the  community. 

We  feel  that  if  there  is  a  cooperative  program  set  up  whereby  the 
same  type  of  service  can  be  rendered  to  the  resident  as  to  the  non- 
resident that  a  very  satisfactory  solution  might  be  had  of  the  prob- 
lem, at  least  a  start  would  be  made  to  the  solution  of  the  problem. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Is  the  quest  for  health  a  contributing  factor  in  the 
cause  of  migration? 

Dr.  Coffee.  It  is  a  factor  but  not  a  large  factor.  A  relatively  small 
percentage  of  the  people  traveling  interstate  are  in  search  of  a  more 
salubrious  climate  or  healthful  location. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Not  among  destitute  people. 

Dr.  Coffee.  The  biggest  transiency  of  those  seeking  health  are 
intrastate,  of  those  going  from  rural  areas  to  cities  where  organi- 
zation and  medical  assistance  and  hospital  facilities  are  available. 

tubercular  migrants  seek  health  on  road 

Tuberculosis,  of  course,  is  the  exception.  The  greatest  percentage 
of  interstate  transiency  in  quest  of  health  is  on  account  of  tuber- 
culosis, and  the  fact  that  is  true  has  been  brought  about  by  some 
mismformation  and  a  belief  that  they  can  find  a  cure  in  high,  dry 
climates.  That,  however,  has  been  shown  to  be  a  fallacy,  that  just 
as  adequate  a  treatment  for  tuberculosis  can  be  given  in  one  climate 


oro^  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

as  another,  so  I  think  we  are  fast  doing  away  with  the  misbelief, 
and  we  feel  there  has  been  a  definite  decrease  in  migration  because 

of  health.  .„  ,  ,  ,      » 

Mr.  Curtis.  Dr.  Coffee,  your  statement  will  be  made  a  part  ot 
the  hearings.  Is  there  anything  further  you  would  like  to  stress 
in  reference  to  it?  „  ,  .  ^j.  . 

Dr  CoFiEE.  I  do  not  think  of  anything.  Of  course,  we  must 
recognize  that  the  bulletin  that  has  been  mentioned,  the  bulletin  on 
the  studies,  contains  some  very  pertinent  information  with  refer- 
ence to  the  medical  problems  involved  in  transients,  and  I  think 
this  bulletin  should  be  used  in  the  study. 

Mr.  Parsons.  How  much  space  would  it  require  to  take  that  pub- 
lication, to  boil  down  the  recommendations,  to  bring  it  within  the 
purview  of  this  investigation?  How  much  space  would  be  required 
to  take  excerpts  and  insert  them  in  the  hearings? 

Dr.  Coffee.  Well,  I  would  say  that  as  the  bulletin  is  printed  there 
is  a  summary  of  conclusions  with  recommendations,  and  it  would 
seem  to  me,  perhaps,  the  summary  is  very  helpful  from  the  stand- 
point of  giving  data  that  is  necessary,  and  from  the  standpoint  of 
statistics,  and  perhaps  we  could  insert  the  summary  and  the  recom- 
mendations from  the  bulletin. 

Mr.  Parsons.  How  many  pages  are  used  in  the  summary  and 
recommendations  ? 

Dr.  Coffee.  About  14  single  pages ;  14  or  15. 

Mr.  Parsons.  I  think  that  is  a  very  important  thing  to  put  into 
these  hearings,  and,  without  objection  from  the  committee,  we  will 
be  glad  to  have  a  summary  of  the  recommendations  taken  from 
the  publication.  There  should  perhaps  be  a  little  summary  show- 
ing how  the  study  was  made,  the  reasons  for  it,  and  that  ought 
to  be  inserted  in  the  record  at  this  point. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  am  not  objecting,  Mr,  Parsons,  but  do  you  not  think 
Dr.  Coffee  should  have  a  free  hand  to  delete  anything  that  he  feels 
has  already  been  covered  in  his  statement,  or,  that  in  looking  over, 
he  may  find  is  not  essential. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Would  it  be  too  much  trouble,  Doctor,  for  you  to 
prepare  a  summary  of  the  recommendations,  along  with  the  sum- 
mary, and  submit  that  to  be  inserted  in  the  record? 

Dr.  Coffee.  I  will  be  glad  to  do  that. 

Mr.  Parsons.  We  will  be  pleased  to  have  that  for  the  record. 

(The  statement  referred  to  follows:) 

A  Sttjdy  of  Medical  Problems  Associated  With  Transients 

There  is  in  the  United  States  a  large  but  fluctuating  number  of  needy  indi- 
viduals, variously  estimated  at  200,000  to  1,000,000,  who  are  discriminated  against 
in  programs  of  material  aid  and  public  medical  care  by  the  application  of  resi- 
dence and  technically  related  requirements.  Such  persons  are  called  transients 
in  this  study. 

The  study  is  limited  to  the  continental  United  States  and  is  concerned  with 
the  health  of  transients  as  it  is  affected  by  their  mode  of  life  and  social  oppor- 
tunities. It  attempts  to  determine:  (1)  The  origin  of  transiency  from  migration 
and  the  importance  of  lack  of  health  as  a  cause;  (2)  the  statutory  limitations 
on  public  assistance  to  transients;  (3)  the  administrative  practices  of  agencies 
giving  assistance  to  transients;    (4)   the  medical  needs  of  transients;   (5)   the 


INTERSTATE  MICxRATION  3585 

influence  of  transients  on  community  health ;  and   (6)   the  most  equitable  and 
practical  solution  of  the  medical  problems  of  transients  and  transiency. 

Original  and  documentary  data  related  to  this  subject  are  presented.  Sources 
of  published  material  used  are  given  in  the  references.  Original  data  collected 
and  used  include:  (a)  About  11,000  schedules  recorded  by  trained  workers  in  20 
cities  of  15  States,  containing  the  migration  history,  personal  characteristics,  and 
disabling  illness  and  medical  care  history  during  a  3-month  survey  period  of  some 
16,000  transients  who  were  applying  for  public  assistance;  (ft)  432  schedules  on 
the  admission  policies  of  public  assistance  agencies  in  the  same  cities  ;  (c)  records 
of  application  of  1,488  transients  for  in-patient  care  at  a  large  charity  hospital ; 
{d)  serological  reactions  of  1,170  inmates  of  a  large  municipal  shelter  for  home- 
less men;  (e)  results  of  chest  X-ray  examinations  of  transients  in  19  cotton 
camps  in  a  southwestern  State;  and  (f)  replies  from  42  local  governmental  and 
nonprofit  association  general  hospitals  in  California  to  a  questionnaire  concerning 
the  number  of  transients  hospitalized  during  1938. 

MIGRATION   AND   TRANSIENCY 

Migration  has  been  an  outstanding  characteristic  of  the  people  of  the  United 
States.  Students  of  migration  in  this  country  are  convinced  that,  since  the 
forces  causing  it  are  still  operative,  it  will  continue  and  may  increase  in  the 
future.  It  produces  not  only  demographic  effects,  in  that  the  age,  sex,  and 
race  compositions  of  populations  are  materially  influenced,  but  also  a  number 
of  effects  on  social  organization  in  general  and  community,  family,  and  individual 
adjustment  in  particular.  It  is  in  the  failure  of  individuals  to  orient  themselves 
properly  to  new  environments,  especially  in  their  failure  to  maintain  or  secure 
economic  self-sufficiency,  that  transiency  arises. 

It  seems  indisputable  that,  if  migration  is  to  continue,  and  some  proportion  of 
the  migrants  may  be  expected  to  fail  in  their  attempts  at  rehabilitation,  social 
planning  should  be  directed  toward  guiding  the  streams  of  migration  and  relieving 
the  destitution  of  the  unsuccessful.  These  functions  can  be  carried  out  success- 
fully only  by  cooperative  Federal  and  State  action. 

Interstate  migxatiou  is  motivated  largely  by  economic  need,  and  only  a  small 
part  of  the  whole  is  caused  by  ill  health.  Practically  all  the  pathological  condi- 
tions for  which  transients  moA-e  across  State  lines  are  pulmonary,  usually  tubercu- 
losis, and  most  migration  of  this  type  is  directed  toward  the  Southwest.  It  is 
estimated  that  there  are  now  in  the  southwestern  States  at  least  10,000  tubercu- 
lous transients  who  are  unalile  to  pay  for  needed  sanatorium  care.  The  highest 
proportion  of  individuals  who  became  migrants  because  of  health  was  found 
among  transients  interviewed  in  Hot  Springs,  Ark.,  followed  in  order  of  im- 
portance by  Tucson,  Ariz. ;  El  Paso  and  San  Antonio,  Tex. ;  Denver,  Colo. ;  and 
Los  Angeles,  Calif.  By  place  of  origin  the  highest  proportion  of  health  migrants 
was  found  among  transients  from  the  eastern  States.  One  part  of  migration, 
usually  not  recognized,  is  that  which  was  started  because  of  economic  conditions 
but  turned  toward  the  Southwest  because  of  ill  health. 

Another  large  part  of  the  transient  problem  that  has  been  ignored  in  most 
studies  and  writings  is  intrastate  migration.  It  is  principally  rural-urban  and 
a  considerable  proportion  of  the  individuals  move  in  search  of  medical  care— a 
factor  found  to  be  almost  negligible  in  interstate  migration. 

No  exact  census  of  transients  in  the  United  States  has  ever  been  possible 
because  of  the  very  nature  of  migration  and  transiencv.  An  estimate,  based 
on  data  collected  during  the  first  quarter  of  1938,  indicates  that  some  400  000 
transients  applied  for  public  assistance  in  1  year  throughout  the  country 

Data  on  transient  cases  in  1934  and  1938  indicate  that  families  make  up 
about  one-flfth  of  the  total  cases,  although  the  percentage  probably  is  much 
higher  in  some  cities.  The  transient  family  seems  definitely  to  he  "increasing 
in  size,  particularly  among  transients  from  the  States  furnishing  the  greatest 
part  of  the  transient  population.  Tliere  is  also  some  evidence  that  the  largest 
families  are  the  least  mobile. 

In  general,  transients  are  younger  than  residents  on  the  relief  rolls.  As 
between  interstate  and  intrastate  transient  family  heads,  the  interstate  group 
contains  the  smaller  proportion  of  persons  55  years  of  age  and  over  and  of 
youths  under  25  years  of  age,  while  among  the  unattached  the  interstate  group 
shows  the  smaller  proportion  of  aged  but  a  greater  proportion  of  youths. 


3586  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

If  classified  according  to  the  last  State  in  which  they  had  lived  for  as  long 
as  1  year,  practically  half  of  the  family  transients  interviewed  came  from  4 
States— Oklahoma,  Arkansas,  Missouri,  and  Texas — and  half  the  unattached 
interstate  transients  came  from  11  States. 

About  70  percent  of  the  families  and  77  percent  of  the  unattached  had  been 
migrants  for  less  than  1  year,  while  among  those  who  had  been  migrants 
for  as  long  as  2  years  practically  all  of  the  family  cases  and  more  than  nine- 
tenths  of  the  unattached  had  lived  in  the  State  of  interview  1  year  or  more. 

These  data  indicate  that  the  transient  population  is  not,  as  is  often  stated, 
made  up  largely  of  a  group  of  individuals  who  have  chosen  a  life  of  migration. 
While  some  few  do  follow  a  pattern  of  seasonal  movement  or  just  wander 
from  place  to  place  as  opportunity  for  economic  improvement  presents  itself, 
it  is  believed  that  approximately  three-fourths  of  the  interstate  transient  group 
is  made  up  of  families  and  individuals  who  are  in  the  process  of  relocation. 

STATUTORY  LIMITATIONS   ON   PUBLIC   ASSISTANCE   TO   TKANSIENTS 

The  majority  of  States  have  among  their  statutes  so-called  "poor  laws," 
"pauper  laws,"  "public  assistance  laws,"  or  "public  welfare  laws."  In  these 
laws  the  State  imposes  upon  itself  or  its  political  subdivisions  the  obligation 
to  relieve  the  destitute.  Provision  for  public  medical  care  usually  is  embodied 
in  these  laws — hence  relief  for  the  sick-poor  is  set  within  the  framework  for 
relieving  destitution. 

In  39  States  the  "poor  laws"  include  other  sections  called  "settlement  laws" 
in  which,  with  few  exceptions,  it  is  provided  that  the  benefits  of  relief  to  the 
destitute  are  to  apply  only  to  persons  defined  by  law  as  residents  of  the  State 
or  certain  of  its  political  subdivisions  or  both.  There  may  or  may  not  be 
further  provision  for  the  medical  relief  of  nonresidents. 

The  history  of  settlement  law  may  be  traced  to  the  feudal  era  in  England. 
The  English  influence  in  this  country  is  partly  due  to  the  legal  concepts  in- 
herited and  brought  from  England  by  the  first  colonists  who,  if  not  always 
racially  identical,  were  culturally  similar  to  the  English.  Settlement  laws  of 
the  original  colonies  have  served  as  models  for  subsequent  State  settlement 
laws.  Another  reason  for  the  adoption  in  the  United  States  of  settlement  laws 
closely  resembling  those  of  England  during  the  seventeenth  century  is  found  in 
the  similarity  of  social  and  economic  conditions  existing  in  the  original  colonies 
and  England  at  that  time.  In  both  countries  the  chief  occupations  were  agri- 
cultural and,  with  a  relatively  limited  labor  supply,  the  laboring  classes  were 
surrounded  by  a  series  of  restrictions  designed  to  attach  them,  as  far  as 
possible,  to  the  locale  where  they  happened  to  be  settled.  However,  the  most 
important  reason  for  the  existence  of  settlement  laws,  and  the  most  important 
consideration  in  discrimination  against  the  transient  today,  is  the  attempt  of 
the  individual  communities  to  protect  themselves  from  persons  likely  to  become 
dependent. 

"Commorancy"  or  residence,  as  such,  in  a  given  locality  and  over  a  stipulated 
period  of  time  is  a  common  prerequisite  to  settlement  in  the  laws  of  all 
States,  and  the  list  of  conditions  under  which  residence  must  be  accomplished 
in  the  various  States  is  a  long  one.  On  the  subject  of  where  a  person  must 
have  lived  to  acquire  residence,  the  39  States  having  settlement  laws  have 
13  different  provisions.  This  confusion  alone  has  contributed  a  great  deal  to 
the  difficulties  involved  in  dealing  with  transients. 

Provisions  in  regard  to  the  length  of  residence  required  for  settlement  are 
more  complex.  Time  x-equired  varies  not  only  between  States,  from  6  months 
to  5  years,  but  often  between  political  subdivisions  within  States,  according 
to  the  person's  financial  status,  his  property  ownership,  or  his  state  of  health 
or  that  of  members  of  his  family. 

Analysis  of  the  provisions  of  the  settlement  laws  over  a  period  of  25  years 
shows  that  during  that  time  one-third  of  the  States  have  increased  the  period 
of  residence  required  for  settlement.  Settlement  laws  in  all  but  seven  of  the 
States  having  such  laws  make  restrictive  provisions  that  bear  on  either  the 
continuity  of  residence  or  its  chronological  precedence  to  application  for  public 
assistance.  Sixteen  States  void  the  entire  period  of  residence  if  it  is  inter- 
rupted by  a  period  during  which  the  person  is  not  self-supporting  and,  in  others 
provisions  change  the  period  required  if  the  individual  receives  specific  kinds 
of  support. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3587 

Citizenship  is  a  prerequisite  to  settlement  in  one  State  and  in  one  county 
of  another  State.  In  three  States  persons  may  be  prevented  from  acquiring 
settlement  in  a  town  or  county  by  a  formal  warning  from  the  authorities  to 
depart.  Several  States  provide  that  employees  and  patients  of  State  insti- 
tutions either  may  not  gain  settlement  or  may  do  so  only  after  a  relatively 
prolonged  period. 

Statutory  enactments  on  loss  of  settlement  may  be  as  effective  in  barring 
transients  from  public  assistance  as  those  relating  to  acquiring  settlement. 
The  situation  regarding  loss  of  settlement  is  less  complex  only  because  fewer 
States  have  statutes  on  the  subject.  Three  States  provide  for  loss  of  settle- 
ment solely  on  acquisition  of  any  new  settlement,  six  on  acquisition  of  a 
new  settlement  in  another  State,  and  nine  on  acquisition  of  a  new  settlement 
within  the  same  State.  Eighteen  States  provide  for  loss  of  settlement  by 
absence  for  a  specitied  period  which  varies  from  1  month  to  5  years.  In  six 
States,  the  stipulated  period  for  loss  of  settlement  is  less  than  is  that  for 
acquisition,  and  one  State  voids  settlement  after  assistance  as  a  pauper  for 
5  years. 

Thirty-nine  States  make  provision  in  their  poor  laws  for  the  relief  of 
nonresidents.  In  32  States  it  is  mandatory,  in  2  it  is  mandatory  for  certain 
cases  only,  and  in  the  other  5  the  statutes  are  only  permissive.  In  24  States 
responsibility  for  the  relief  rests  on  local  political  units,  in  3  States  the  State 
alone  is  responsible,  while  in  10  States  there  is  joint  responsibility. 

Relief  to  nonresidents  in  some  States  is  available  only  to  those  who  are 
sick ;  in  other  States  it  depends  on  funds  being  available.  Several  States  limit 
such  relief  to  those  "who  have  been  committed  to  jail,"  "have  been  injured  on  the 
State  highways,"  or  "who  are  indigent  by  reason  of  physical  or  mental  infirm- 
ity." Others  specify  "State  paupers"  (undefined)  or  "those  who  are  not 
residents  of  any  individual  township."  Probably  the  most  important  restric- 
tion on  assistance  to  nonresidents  is  the  stipulation,  made  by  19  States,  that 
such  aid  be  temporary  or  emergency  only. 

The  settlement  laws  are  the  embodiment  of  a  discrimination  which  most 
States  and  communities  exercise  against  persons  who  have  become  or  who 
are  likely  to  become  dependent  on  the  community  for  assistance.  Formulated 
originally  both  to  protect  the  poor  funds  of  the  community  and  to  I'estrict  the 
movement  of  needed  workers,  they  have  been  handed  down  to  a  society  in 
which  the  free  movement  of  labor  is  essential  and  economic  distress  in  local 
governments  is  almost  universal.  The  result  of  such  a  combination  is  easily 
predicted. 

Many  migrants  have  lost  all  rights  to  assistance  in  any  State.  Others  are 
entitled  to  receive  only  "emergency"  assistance,  and  the  majority  have  no 
governmental  organization  to  which  they  can  turn  for  aid.  It  should  be  em- 
phasized, however,  that  the  settlement  law  per  se  is  not  the  cause  but  only 
the  statutory  method  through  which  transients  are  made  the  object  of  dis- 
crimination.    Discrimination  is  equally  definite  where  no  such  statute  exists. 

ADMINISTRATIVE  PRACTICES  OF  AGENCIES   GIVING  PUBLIC   ASSISTANCE   TO 
TRANSIENTS 

Three-fourths  of  the  482  agencies  that  assist  transients  in  the  20  study  cities 
are  social,  1.  e.,  their  primary  function  is  to  dispense  general  relief;  and 
one-fourth  are  primarily  medical.  Medical  agencies,  however,  handle  only  13.1 
percent  of  all  applications  from  transient  families  and  7  percent  of  those 
from  unattached  transients.  A  count  of  transient  applications  in  1938  indi- 
cated that,  in  addition  to  the  applications  for  aid  at  medical  agencies,  2.7 
percent  of  those  at  social  agencies  were  also  for  medical  care.  In  the  20 
cities  there  are  the  same  number  of  hospitals  that  give  assistance  to  transients 
as  there  are  clinics  (or  out-patient  departments).  General  hospitals  repre- 
sent almost  63  percent  of  such  hospitals,  and  maternity  hospitals  about  20 
percent. 

Of  the  324  social  agencies,  57  percent  are  mass-care  agencies  and  they 
handle  two-thirds  of  all  applicants  to  social  agencies.  The  remaining  43 
percent  are  case-work  agencies  and  handle  one-third  of  the  cases. 

Thirty-two  percent  of  agencies  providing  medical  care  to  transients  are 
under  governmental  control,   while  among  those  not  giving  medical  attention 

260370 — Jl— pt.  9 9 


3588 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


to  transients  the  percentage  is  only  13.3.  However,  the  governmental-agency 
applications  included  three-fourths  of  all  persons  who  applied  to  medical 
agencies  and  one-third  of  all  who  applied  to  social  agencies.  Of  all  agencies 
giving  medical  care  to  transients,  more  than  one-third  restricted  the  care  to 
emergency  service  only;  another  third  gave  ordinary  care  to  selected  cases 
only  and  less  than  a  third  had  no  restrictions  upon  the  type  of  medical 
attention  furnished.  Of  the  146  general  hospitals  in  the  20  cities,  only  30 
gave  any  medical  care  to  transients  and  only  7  gave  it  without  restrictions. 

Data  on  residence  requirements  of  out-patient  departments  in  general  hos- 
pitals of  the  United  States  were  available  in  studies  from  the  National 
Health  Inventory.  These  show  that  while  only  slightly  more  than  half  of  all 
out-patient  departments,  both  free  and  other,  malte  residence  requirements  for 
eligibility  for  care,  91  percent  of  local  governmental  and  73  percent  of  State 
out-patient  departments  do  so. 

Regardless  of  location  with  reference  to  settlement  law  and  of  the  organization 
in  control,  discrimination  against  the  transient  in  public  assistance  agencies  is 
the  rule,  and  public  assistance  agencies  that  treat  transients  on  the  same  basis  as 
residents  are  the  exception. 

The  findings  (1)  that  governmental  agencies  handle  the  greater  part  of  applica- 
tions to  medical  agencies,  (2)  that  a  higher  proportion  of  governmental  than  of 
nongovernmental  general  hospitals  give  free  care  to  transients,  and  (3)  that  a 
greater  proportion  of  them  adhere  to  the  settlement  restrictions  were  to  be 
expected.  That  almost  half  of  all  governmental  as  well  as  nongovernmental 
agencies  in  States  with  settlement  laws  have  stricter  settlement  requirements 
than  the  law  provides  is  not  so  well  known.  This  seems  to  indicate  that  it  is  not 
entirelv  the  settlement  law  that  deprives  the  transient  of  relief. 

The  analysis  of  agencies  in  the  20  cities  by  restrictions  upon  type  of  care  given 
is  probably  a  representative  picture  of  the  provision  of  medical  care  to  transients. 
When  it  is  seen  that  almost  two-thirds  of  the  agencies  giving  medical  care  to 
transients  restrict  the  care  to  either  emergency  or  selected  cases,  the  difficulties 
facing  the  transient  who  requires  medical  care  are  at  once  apparent. 

ILLNESS   EXPERIENCE   AND    MEDICAL,   CARE   OF   TRANSIENTS    COMPARED    WITH    THOSE    OF 


It  was  found  that  13.6  percent  of  the  9,040  unattached  transients  who  were 
interviewed  and  21.7  percent  of  the  7,105  transients  in  interviewed  family  cases 
had  had  disabling  illness  during  the  3-month  survey  period.  Interstate  family 
transients  had  a  74  percent  higher  disabling  illness  rate  than  did  residents,  and 
the  rate  for  interstate  unattached  transients  was  45  percent  higher  than  that  for 
residents  of  comparable  age  and  sex.  Transients  not  only  had  a  higher  disabling 
illness  rate  than  all  residents  considered  in  the  Health  and  Depression  Study,  but 
higher  even  than  the  "poor"  residents. 

On  the  basis  of  mobility,  transients  who  have  been  migrants  less  than  2  years 
have  less  disabling  illness  than  those  who  have  been  migrants  a  longer  period 
of  time,  and,  as  the  period  of  stay  in  the  State  of  interview  increases,  the  disabling 
illness  rate  becomes  higher.  In  any  comparison  of  disabling  illness  rates  between 
interstate  and  intrastate  transients,  if  only  the  individual  making  the  application 
for  public  assistance  is  considered,  the  intrastate  group  exhibits  a  higher  rate  of 
disabling  illness,  and  makes  a  considerably  higher  proportion  of  applications  for 
assistance  to  medical  agencies. 

Analysis  of  disabling  illness  by  diagnosis  groups  shows  that  interstate  tran- 
sients have,  like  residents,  the  highest  disabling  illness  rate  from  the  respiratory 
diseases.  In  the  unattached,  this  diagnosis  group  is  followed,  in  order  of  im- 
portance as  a  cause  of  disability,  by  accidents,  pueiiieral  conditions,  communicable 
diseases,  and  digestive  diseases.  Degenerative  and  nervous  conditions  and  rheu- 
matism fall  at  the  end  of  the  six  most  important  groups.  Among  family  inter- 
state transients,  communicable  diseases,  puerperal  conditions,  digestive  diseases, 
degenerative  diseases,  and  accidents  follow  respiratory  conditions  in  order  of 
importance. 

The  disabling  illness  rates  of  all  interstate  transients  exceed  those  of  residents 
for  all  conditions  except  degenerative,  nervous,  and  rheumatic  diseases.  The 
greatest  excess  of  disabling  illness  among  interstate  transients,  as  compared  with 
residents,  appears  in  the  unattached  who  seem  to  have  more  than  seven  times 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3589 

as  much  disability  from  communicable  diseases  and  almost  five  times  as  much 
from  accidents,  as  do  residents  of  comparable  age. 

From  these  data  it  is  seen  that  transients,  either  interstate  or  intrastate,  have 
considerably  more  disabling  illness  than  persons  who  have  resided  in  communities 
long  enough  and  under  such  conditions  as  to  have  the  status  of  residents. 

Intrastate  transients  have  even  higher  disabling  illness  rates  than  do  the 
interstate.  It  is  believed  that  this  difference  is  due  to  the  greater  proportionate 
migration  of  intrastate  transients  to  cities  in  search  of  public  medical  care  which 
they  do  not  believe  is  available  to  them  at  home  in  smaller  communities.  That  a 
larger  proportion  of  intrastate  than  of  interstate  transients'  applications  were  to 
medical  agencies  is  a  corollary  of  their  search  for  medical  care. 

Data  on  disabling  illness  rates  by  degrees  of  mobility  definitely  suggest  a  health 
selection  in  migration.  The  pattern  appears  to  be  as  follows :  Among  all  inter- 
state transients  the  most  recent  migrants  have  the  least  number  of  disabling 
illnesses,  and  as  migration  continues  the  incidence  of  disabling  illness  increases. 
However,  as  illness  strikes  more  frequently,  the  result  seems  to  be  that  migration 
is  delayed  and  often  the  migrant  settles  down  in  some  community  and  eventually 
becomes  a  resident.  This  tendency  may  be  responsible  for  the  high  rate  of 
illness  and  disease  found  in  cities  among  the  local  homeless,  many  of  whom  may 
well  be  former  interstate  transients  disabled  for  migration  by  chronic  or  recurring 
diseases. 

There  are  several  reasons  why  transients  exhibit  a  very  high  rate  of  disabling 
illness.  First,  they  are  more  likely  than  residents  to  suffer  accidents  while  travel- 
ing from  place  to  place.  They  are  exposed  to  the  risk  of  communicable  disease 
to  a  much  greater  extent  than  are  residents,  who  do  not  often  live  in  the  insani- 
tary conditions  found  in  camps,  shelters,  and  other  forms  of  temporary  habitation. 
A  second  and  more  important  reason  for  a  high  disabling  illness  rate  among 
transients  is  that  they  are  "marginal"  individuals.  A  majority  of  them  start 
migration  because  they  are  unable  to  support  themselves  at  home,  and  it  has  been 
shown  repeatedly  that  the  poorest  fraction  of  the  population  has  the  highest 
illness  rates.  Third,  some  of  those  found  as  transients  have  migrated  because 
they  are  ill,  and  finally  the  very  fact  that  they  receive  less  medical  care  than 
needy  resident  groups  may  well  tend  to  increase  their  illness  rates.  One-ninth 
of  all  disabling  illness  experienced  by  members  of  transient  families  (but  exclud- 
ing families  headed  by  persons  eligible  for  Federal  hospitalization)  was  hospital- 
ized, less  than  a  third  received  only  the  attention  of  a  physician,  and  almost 
three-fifths  did  not  come  to  medical  attention.  For  similar  illnesses  residents 
received  3.2  percent  more  hospitalization,  21.4  percent  more  attention  by  physi- 
cians, and  some  type  of  care  in  24.5  percent  more  of  the  illnesses  reported. 

A  considerable  proportion  of  the  unattached  interstate  transients  interviewed 
are  eligible  for  Federal  hospitalization.  One-ninth  of  all  unattached  transients 
were  beneficiaries  of  this  service  as  United  States  veterans,  and  3.4  percent  were 
eligible  for  medical  care  as  merchant  seamen.  These  two  groups  received  some 
kind  of  medical  attention  for  83  percent  and  96.4  percent  of  their  disabilities, 
respectively,  while  only  66.2  percent  of  those  experienced  by  other  unattached 
transients  were  given  medical  attention.  Veterans  were  hospitalized  for  50.2 
percent  of  their  reported  disabilities,  seamen  for  40.3  percent,  and  other  unat- 
tached transients  for  only  28.3  percent. 

Data  on  1,444  nonresident  applications  for  in-patient  care  at  Louisville  City 
Hospital  show  that  those  by  Kentuckians  constitute  more  than  half  of  the  total. 
About  three-fourths  were  made  by  white  persons  and  slightly  more  than  half 
by  females,  the  excess  of  females  over  males  occurring  principally  in  the  age  group 
15-24.  The  greatest  number  of  intrastate  applicants  (Kentuckians)  in  relation 
to  the  population  of  the  place  of  residence  came  from  counties  touching  Jeffer- 
son, the  county  in  which  Louisville  lies. 

Disposition  of  the  transient  applicants  at  this  hospital  was  as  follows:  (a) 
43.7  percent  were  admitted;  (b)  11.6  percent  were  referred  to  other  hospitals; 
(c)  3.6  percent  were  referred  to  practicing  physicians;  and  (d)  for  41.1  percent 
no  provision  for  medical  care  was  made.  The  proportion  by  place  of  residence 
of  applicants  accepted  for  bed  care  at  Louisville  City  Hospital  was  between  40 
and  50  percent  for  all  nonresidents  except  those  from  Jefferson  County,  only 
8.6  percent  of  whom  were  admitted. 

Discrimination  against  transients  was  discussed  from  the  viewpoints  of  cause, 
history,  trends,  and  modus  operandi.    Data  on  medical  care  received  by  transients 


QRQQ  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

show  the  results  of  this  discrimination.  No  class  or  type  of  transient,  except 
special  beneficiaries  of  the  Federal  health  services,  receives  as  much  medical 
care  as  even  the  poor  in  resident  groups.  Although  most  students  of  the  subject 
agree  that  care  received  by  many  residents  is  not  adequate  for  the  maintenance 
of  health,  transients  receive  even  less  care  than  do  residents. 

THE  INFLUENCE  OF  TRANSIENTS)  ON  COMMUNITY  HEALTH 

Transients  may  be  found  living  under  all  kinds  of  sanitary  conditions.  While 
some  transients  resemble,  in  their  hygienic  surroundings,  residents  of  the  same 
economic  status,  a  greater  proportion  are  forced  to  exist  under  almost  every 
imaginable  variety  of  insanitary  condition.  Wretched  housing  among  tran- 
sients is  found  in  every  State,  but  more  frequently  in  the  Southwest  since  tran- 
sients are  found  there  in  the  greatest  numbers.  The  majority  of  transients 
live  in  temporary  shelters  that  range  downward  in  degrees  of  sanitation  from 
the  Farm  Security  Administration  camps  and  the  better  grower  camps,  through 
the  worst  of  grower  camps  and  the  poorer  tourist  camps  to  the  most  insanitary 
of  all,  the  squatter  camps  or  jungles.  In  the  latter  are  often  found  all  conceiv- 
able violations  of  hygienic  standards  in  excreta  disposal.  The  water  supply  even 
for  drinking  purposes  is  often  the  nearest  stream,  pool,  or  irrigation  ditch. 
Serious  overcrowding  in  the  shelters  is  almost  universal  even  in  the  grower 

As  a  result  of  these  conditions  a  high  incidence  of  typhoid  fever  and,  par- 
ticularly, of  dysentery,  occurs  among  transients,  especially  among  the  migratory 
agricultural  workers.  On  the  basis  of  disabling  illnesses  reported  by  transients 
in  interviewed  cases,  the  incidence  of  typhoid  fever  was  approximately  34  times 
as  high  as  among  all  residents  of  the  United  States  in  1938. 

Various  organizations  have  been  vitally  concerned  with  this  aspect  of  tran- 
sient life,  and  there  is  some  evidence  that  housing  conditions  in  general  are 
improving.  Both  the  Farm  Security  Administration  camps  and  those  grower 
camps  built  and  maintained  under  the  jurisdiction  of  competent  health  authori- 
ties have  done  a  great  deal  to  improve  the  living  conditions  of  transients.  It 
remains  to  be  seen  whether  good  camps  can  be  provided  in  sufficient  number  to 
raise  the  standard  of  sanitation  for  any  significant  number  of  transients. 

No  thorough  studies  of  the  diets  of  transients  have  been  made,  but  a  partial 
one  showed  that  on  the  basis  of  milk  consumption  the  diets  of  transient  chil- 
dren are  very  inadequate.  Since  the  majority  of  migratory  agricultural  tran- 
sients in  the  Southwest  come  from  the  West  South  Central  States,  their  diet  is 
very  likely  to  be  that  of  the  poorer  residents  of  those  States,  made  even  more 
inadequate  by  the  financial  distress  into  which  the  transients  have  fallen.  It  is 
believed  by  all  competent  observers  that  their  diets  fall  far  short  of  minimum 
requirements  in  total  calories,  vitamin  and  mineral  content,  and  digestibility. 

As  evidence  of  the  results  of  inadequate  diets  among  these  transients  it  was 
found  in  one  study  of  the  children  of  migratory  agricultural  workers  that  27.9 
percent  of  them  had  nutritional  and  dietary  defects,  not  including  dental  caries 
and  decalcification.  During  the  transient-case  study  6  transients  were  inter- 
viewed who  had  been  disabled  by  pellagra,  a  deficiency  disease,  during  the 
3-month  survey  period.  The  cumulative  effect  on  future  health  in  the  western 
States  of  allowing  children  to  subsist  on  very  inadequate  diets  is  one  that  should 
be  given  serious  consideration  by  health  authorities. 

The  incidence  of  active  pulmonary  tuberculosis  among  all  transients  who  apply 
for  public  assistance  is  probably  around  2  i>ercent  for  the  country  as  a  whole 
and  somewhat  higher  in  the  Southwest.  In  some  cities  to  which  there  is  con- 
siderable migration  because  of  pulmonary  conditions  and  in  which  migratory 
labor  is  not  in  very  great  demand,  the  incidence  of  active  pulmonary  tuberculosis 
among  transients  may  be  as  high  as  9  percent. 

Almost  without  exception  the  nonresident  or  transient  tuberculosis  person  iy 
excluded  from  the  sanatorium  or  must  spend  a  long  time  in  residence  before 
hospitalization.  This  can  mean  only  that  he  is  forced  to  continue  spreading  the 
infection  to  nontuberculousi  individuals. 

According  to  a  survey  of  unattached  homeless  men  in  one  city,  the  incidence 
of  serologically  detectable  syphilis  appears  to  be  about  8  percent  for  white 
interstate  unattached  transients  and  about  29  percent  for  colored.  This  is  ap- 
proximately 2  percent  less  than  the  rate&t  determined  for  the  corresponding  local 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3591 

homeless  groups  in  the  same  city.  As  in  tuberculosis,  the  transient  with  syphilis 
is  usually  "ineligible"  for  public  treatment,  despite  the  fact  that  one  of  the  most 
important  public-health  considerations  in  the  treatment  of  syphilis  is  the  protec- 
tion of  the  rest  of  the  population  by  making  each  case  noninfectious. 

Smallpox  is  not  only  occurring  at  a  high  rate  among  transients  but  is  being 
spread  by  them  from  one  community  to  another  and  from  State  to  State; 
meningococcus  meningitis  epidemics  also  seem  to  be  encouraged  by  the  housing 
of  transients  in  congregate  shelters. 

A  very  great  danger  to  the  health  of  communities  exists  in  the  possibility  of 
the  introduction  by  transients  of  relatively  unknown  diseases.  For  example,  all 
the  known  requirements  for  the  introduction  of  malaria  into  a  number  of  States 
exist  in  the  transient  situation  today.  This  disease  and  trachoma  are  probably 
now  being  carried  to  California  and  other  parts  of  the  West  by  transients  from 
the  South  Central  States. 

A  very  important  effect  of  interstate  transients  on  communities  is  the  cost  of 
public  medical  care  given  to  them.  For  hospitalization  alone  it  has  been  esti- 
mated that  transients  cost  Los  Angeles  County  (Calif.)  $170,000  annually. 
From  the  records  of  admissions  of  interstate  transients  to  16  county  hospitals 
in  California,  an  annual  cost  per  county  of  $26,000  was  estimated.  The  Louis- 
ville (Ky.)  City  Hospital  Department  of  Admissions  estimates  that  the  hos- 
pitalization of  nonresidents  in  this  institution  cost  Louisville  taxpayers  about 
$14,000  in  1937  and  around  $9,000  in  1938.  It  isi  of  interest  to  note  that  more 
than  half  the  applicants  and  transients  admitted  to  this  institution  were  intra- 
state transients. 

The  effect  of  transients  on  community  health  is  to  increase  the  hazard  of  ill 
health  to  residents  and  to  raise  the  incidence  of  most  of  the  communicable 
diseases.  The  incidence  of  tuberculosis,  syphilis,  gonorrhea,  and  malaria  almost 
certainly  is  increased  in  a  community  by  adding  transients  to  the  resident  popu- 
lation. Thisi  is  partly  due  to  the  higher  rate  of  these  conditions  among  tran- 
sients; but  it  results  chiefly  from  the  fact  that  transients  are  not  given  equal 
consideration  in  community  programs  of  sanitation,  preventive  medicine,  and 
isolation  of  infectious  cases  of  communicable  disease. 

The  discrimination  noted  against  diseased  transients  in  hospitals,  sanatoria, 
and  clinics  undoubtedly  has  an  economic  basis.  The  cost  of  hospitalization  for 
the  average  long  period  of  institutionalization  in  pulmonary  tuberculosis  is  so 
high  that  no  community  feels  willing  to  provide  facilities  or  pay  for  hospitaliz- 
ing nonresidents!  with  this  condition.  Hence  there  result  the  settlement  laws 
with  their  special  restrictions  against  persons  with  pulmonary  tuberculosis. 
The  States  have  felt  that  if  nonresidents  were  admitted  to  State  tuberculosis 
sanatoria  it  would  serve  only  to  attract  more  indigent  tuberculous  persons  from 
areas  where  free  hospitalization  for  this  disease  is  not  available  to  all  persons 
suffering  from  it. 

The  data  presented  on  the  cost  of  public  hospitalization  now  being  supplied 
to  transients!  in  general  hospitals  seem  to  show  that  an  enormous  load  from 
this  cause  is  being  carried  by  some  communities,  in  spite  of  the  fact  that  tran- 
sients generally  receive  considerably  less  medical  care  and  hospitalization  than 
do  residents. 

RECOMMENDATIONS 

The  conclu&!ions  expressed  in  this  report  have  resulted  from  the  analysis  of 
original  data  collected  during  the  course  of  the  study,  from  the  various  studies, 
books,  and  articles  published  on  transiency  and  related  subjects,  and  from  the 
advice  and  counsel  of  various  authorities. 

Specific  recommendations  as  to  the  most  equitable  and  practical  solution  of  the 
medical  problems  associated  with  transients  are:  (1)  In  any  plans  formulated, 
the  basic  consideration  that  migration  and  transiency  are  permanent  character- 
istics of  American  society  and  economy  must  be  given  a  prominent  place.  (2) 
There  should  be  a  national  policy  on  migration,  and  an  organization  to  direct  and 
influence  migration  should  be  created  on  the  Federal  level.  (3)  There  should  be 
instituted  a  program  of  hospital  and  sanatorium  construction  and  maintenance 
and  of  public  medical  care  for  the  medically  needy,  through  the  combined  efforts 
of  the  Federal  Government  and  the  States,  that  would  make  available  in  every 
State  adequate  medical  care  and  a  public-institution  bed  for  each  needy  individual 


3592  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

who  required  it.  These  services  should  be  similarly  available  to  all  needy  persons 
regardless  of  residence  status.  In  the  case  of  transients  vpith  pulmonary  tubercu- 
losis and  other  chronic  debilitating  conditions,  provision  should  be  made  for 
returning  these  cases  to  the  last  State  in  which  they  had  legal  settlement  if  it  is 
certain  that  proper  medical  care,  including  hospitalization,  is  immediately  avail- 
able there  and  if  it  is  not  more  important  socially  that  they  be  hospitalized  as 
transients.  (4)  The  presence  of  a  considerable  number  of  interstate  transients 
in  any  State  should  be  recognized  as  a  special  health  problem  in  the  allotment  of 
Federal  funds  to  States  for  the  maintenance  and  improvement  of  local  public- 
health  facilities.  (5)  The  Federal  Government  should  neither  formulate  nor  con- 
tribute funds  to  a  health  program  organized  exclusively  for  transients.  Determina- 
tion of  the  transient's  settlement  status,  the  investigation  of  his  financial  need, 
and  his  certification  for  any  needed  medical  care  should  be  handled  by  such  public 
social  organizations  and  personnel  in  each  community  as  carry  out  similar  func- 
tions for  residents.  Determination  of  medical  need  and  administration  of  all  public 
medical  care  given  to  the  transient  should  be  allocated  to  that  public  medical 
agency  in  each  community  charged  with  similar  responsibilities  for  needy  residents. 

TESTIMONY  OF  HENRY  S.  ALVES,  OP  THE  UNITED  STATES  OFFICE 
OF  EDUCATION 

Mr.  Parsons.  Mr.  Alves,  will  you  state  your  full  name,  and  the  De- 
partment you  represent  ? 

Mr.  Alves.  H.  S.  Alves,  United  States  Office  of  Education. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Mr.  Alves,  the  statement  by  Mr.  J.  W.  Studebaker, 
Commissioner  of  Education,  which  you  have  presented  to  us,  will  be 
entered  in  the  record  at  this  point. 

(The  statement  is  as  follows:) 

STATEMENT  BY  J.  W.  STUDEBAKER,  COMMISSIONER  OF  EDUCATION, 
UNITED  STATES  OFFICE  OF  EDUCATION 

Problems  of  Education  Caused  By  Migrations  of  Families  With  Children 
OF  School  Age 

Migratory  life  in  general  has  many  undesirable  effects  on  the  education  of 
children.  If  their  parents  are  on  the  move  rather  constantly,  as  many  of  them 
are,  the  effect  is  deplorable,  for  their  unfortunate  children  eithQr  attend  school 
for  abbreviated  periods  only  or  not  at  all.  When  the  parents,  whether  wealthy 
or  of  moderate  means,  have  permanent  places  of  abode  during  a  part  of  the 
time  the  schools  are  in  session,  but  travel  about  or  remove  to  a  temporary 
lesidence  during  the  remaining  time,  the  education  of  their  children  is  neces- 
sarily disturbed  to  some  extent  at  least. 

This  presentation,  however,  is  limited  chiefly  to  the  movements  or  migrations 
of  those  persons  and  families  that  travel  from  place  to  place  in  search  of  em- 
ployment or,  as  some  do,  for  no  particular  purpose  except  to  gratify  their  roving 
dispositions.  Such  a  limitation  excludes  the  movements  of  those  who  travel 
regularly  or  occasionally  to  places  for  the  primary  purpose  of  seeking  desirable 
climates  or  other  pleasures.  While  children  of  the  latter  group  do  create 
problems  in  school  administration,  the  financial  phase  of  such  problems  can 
generally  be  solved  by  means  of  nonresident  tuition  charges. 

migrations  which  create  difficult  problems  in  educational  administration 
and  finance 

In  its  study,  migration  of  workers,  the  United  States  Department  of  Labor 
divides  interstate  migrants  into  two  major  classifications,  "constant"  and  "re- 
moval."   These  are  defined  as  follows  :^ 


D.  S.  Department  of  Labor,  Migration  of  Workers,  p.  2. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3593 

"Seasonal  and  casual  workers  who  move  continually  from  job  to  job  will  be 
referred  to  as  constant  migrants.  Migration  is  sometimes  mistalienly  discussed 
as  though  this  were  the  only  group  of  migrants.  Even  more  fundamental  and 
presenting  at  times  extremely  serious  problems  is  the  group  of  removal  mi- 
grants, who  move  in  response  to  a  fairly  permanent  relocation  of  their  work. 
Such  migration  may  be  internal  or  across  international  boundaries.  The  west- 
ward movement  of  population  in  the  United  States  is  an  important  example  of 
internal  removal,  while  the  arrival  of  foreign  immigrants  to  this  country  is  a 
movement  of  the  same  type  except  that  it  takes  place  across  national  lines. 

"Frequently  the  removal  migrants  merge  into  the  class  of  constant  migrants. 
Thus  the  drought  refugees,  who  are  clearly  removal  migrants  in  origin,  have 
often  become  seasonal  workers,  moving  from  job  to  job,  when  they  have  been 
unable  to  reestablish  themselves  permanently  in  any  one  community.  Much 
migration  during  the  recent  depression  also  belongs  to  an  intermediate  class. 
Numerous  depression  migrants  took  to  the  road  because  of  lack  of  work  or 
relief  at  home  and  not  usually  with  the  intention  of  moving  constantly.  Some 
have  returned  to  their  former  homes,  so  that  their  migration  was  special  and 
temporary.  Some  have  resettled,  and  thus  become  removal  migrants.  Others 
have  continued  to  search  for  work  on  the  road  and  so  become  constant  migrants 
recruited  from  the  relocating  forces  of  the  depression." 

Neither  of  the  two  groups  of  migrants  described  in  the  foregoing  quotation 
need  to  be  limited  with  respect  to  problems  of  education  to  interstate  migra- 
tion. However,  the  education  problems  involved  have  different  aspects  when 
the  movements  are  intrastate  as  compared  to  those  which  are  interstate. 

Of  the  migrations  of  families  with  children,  those  designated  "constant," 
of  course,  present  problems  in  relation  to  school  administration  year  after  year. 
As  indicated  in  the  report  those  designated  "removal"  are  likely  to  be  more 
extreme  and  significant  in  a  quantitative  way  when  they  do  occur.  Both  have 
implications  on  school  situations. 

CONSTANT  MIGRATION 

It  is  Obvious  that  the  school  work  of  children  of  families  constantly  on  the 
move  cannot  be  satisfactory  in  many  respects.  Children  of  families  working 
in  the  vegetable  and  fruit  harvests  of  south  Texas,  then  in  the  cotton  fields  of 
central  and  north  Texas  and  Oklahoma,  and  finally  in  the  beet  fields  of  Colorado, 
are  out  of  school  during  a  part  or  all  of  the  school  term.  Those  who  are 
fortunate  enough  to  attend  at  all  usually  are  obliged  to  adjust  themselves  to 
three  or  four  school  situations. 

While  the  effects  on  the  schooling  of  children  of  migrant  parents  have  not 
been  thoroughly  investigated,  some  studies  have  been  made.  One  of  these 
reports  as  follows  :  ^ 

"The  records  for  656  children  were  furnished  by  the  Philadelphia  school  au- 
thorities. This  number  included  some  children  outside  the  compulsory  at- 
tendance age  which  in  Pennsylvania  in  1938,  extended  from  8  to  16  years,  in- 
clusive. The  law  exempts  from  school  attendance  (1)  children  who  have 
completed  high  school,  (2)  children  16  years  of  age  who  hold  employment 
certificates,  (3)  children  16  years  of  age  who  are  mentally  unable  to  profit  from 
further  schooling,  and  (4)  children  of  15  and  16  years  who  have  completed  the 
sixth  grade  and  are  employed  at  farm  or  domestic  work  because  of  parental 
need." 

"Children  coming  into  Pennsylvania  from  other  States  for  migratory  work 
are  covered  by  the  Pennsylvania  school  law  and  receive  the  same  educational 
advantages  as  resident  children.  In  New  Jersey,  however,  there  is  no  law 
requiring  nonresident  children  to  attend  school,  and  no  provision  is  made  for 
their  education. 

"Philadelphia  schools  in  1938  closed  on  June  26  and  reopened  on  September 
g      *     *     * 

"By  the  end  of  April  20.7  percent  of  the  families  had  gone  to  the  country, 
45.0  percent  went  in  May,  and  29.9  percent  in  June.  Eleven  families  went  out 
after  July  1,  most  of  them  for  fall  harvesting. 


*  National  Child  Labor  Committee,  A  Summer  in  tlie  Country.     New  Yorlc,  N.  Y., 
p.  23-25. 


3594 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Percent  of  rural 
g(-g^-g  .  children  retarded 

Colorado 24.2 

California 18.9 

Wisconsin 11.3 

Iowa 8.9 

Kentucky 44.2 


"By  the  end  of  August  42.8  percent  had  returned,  21.9  percent  returned  in 
September,  and  33.9  percent  in  October.  Only  two  families  who  remained 
out  until  after  November  1  were  visited  in  Philadelphia  *  *  *  but  several 
calls  were  made  at  homes  to  which  families  had  not  returned  by  this  time. 

"Of  the  656  children  there  were  588,  or  89.6  percent,  who  missed  time  from 
school  in  the  spring  or  fall  or  both.  The  time  lost  averaged  39  days  of  school — 
just  1  day  less  than  2  school  months.  The  New  Jersey  Commission  to  Inves- 
tigate the  Employment  of  Migratory  Children  in  New  Jersey  found  that  for 
the  year  1930  the  average  time  lost  from  school  by  the  children  of  migrants 
was  exactly  the  same,  39  days." 

Another  study  is  reported  by  Luella  M.  King  :^ 

Comparison  of  retardation  of  migratory  and  nonmigratory  rural  children  in 
representative  parts  of  the  United  States 

Percent  of  migratory 
gtate :  children  retarded 

Colorado 42.1 

Oregon 31.6 

Washington 60-25.5 

Michigan 44.3 

New  Jersey 79.7 

Maryland 69.7 

Removal  migration. — There  are  many  migrations  which  may  be  classified 
as  "removal"  according  to  the  definition  of  this  term  in  the  study  made  by 
the  Department  of  Labor  and  quoted  above.  Probably  the  best  known  of  these 
is  the  movement  of  families  which  took  place  during  the  previous  decade  from 
drought-stricken  regions  of  the  central  part  of  the  country.  Less  generally 
discussed  are  such  migrations  as  those  of  the  families  of  workers  from  the 
locations  of  industrial  and  other  projects  which  have  been  completed  or  have 
reached  the  stage  where  the  services  of  fewer  workers  are  needed  to  the  sites 
of  other  projects  where  there  are,  or  seem  to  be,  better  opportunities  of 
securing  employment.  Depending  upon  the  inducements  offered,  the  latter 
migrations  in  addition  usually  include  families  of  workers  from  various  kinds 
of  previous  employment  and  from  various  sections  of  the  country.  These 
migrations  are  toward  such  projects  as  newly  discovered  and  developing  oil 
fields  and  mining  districts  and  reclamation,  defense,  and  other  projects  of 
the  United  States  Government. 

While  most  of  the  population  movements  under  this  second  classification  have 
implications  upon  school  problems,  probably  none  have  exceeded  the  serious  pro- 
portions of  those  of  the  present  time  resulting  from  the  migrations  of  workers  to 
the  locations  of  national-defense  projects.  Recent  reports  from  many  schools  in 
the  vicinities  of  these  projects  indicate  that  large  numbers  of  the  children  of 
these  workers  have  no  school  to  attend. 

WATS  AND  MEANS  OF  SOLVING  THE  PROBLEMS 


Population  movements  from  one  area  to  another  within  States  emphasize  the 
importance  of  adequate  support  or  guaranty  by  each  State  government  for  a 
foundation  education  program  for  all  communities  of  the  State.  Similarly  migra- 
tions across  State  lines,  particularly  in  extraordinary  cases,  in  all  likelihood 
result  in  situations  with  respect  to  education  which  call  for  some  kind  of  financial 
assistance  by  the  Federal  Government.  While  it  may  be  possible  for  most  States 
themselves  to  effect  educational  adjustments  made  necessary  by  migrations  within 
their  respective  borders,  great  movements  of  people  across  State  lines  are  almost 
certain  to  magnify  the  problem  to  such  an  extent  as  to  make  its  immediate 
solution  practically  impossible  without  assistance  from  the  Federal  Government, 

There  are  many  complicating  factors  in  the  problem  of  providing  school  facili- 
ties for  children  of  migratory  workers.  School  budgets  are  invariably  prepared 
early  in  the  school  year,  and  taxes  are  levied  shortly  thereafter.     If  a  fairly 


*  King,  Luella  M.,  Troblems  of  Education  Relating  to  Seasonal  and  Migrator.v  Labor, 
Washington,  D.  C,  1931.  Bulletin  of  the  Department  of  Rural  Education  of  the  National 
Education  Association,  p.  31. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3595 

constant  number  of  children  of  seasonal  workers  come  into  a  school  district  at  a 
definite  time  each  year,  that  fact  can  be  considered  at  the  time  of  preparing  the 
budget.  On  the  other  hand,  if  the  number  is  not  constant,  or  a  very  large  number 
comes  unexpectedly,  the  difficulty  is  obvious. 

Seasonal  workers  employed  in  the  raising  and  harvesting  of  crops  move  not  only 
within  States  but  frequently  from  State  to  State.  A  sound  program  of  school 
finance  can  under  ordinary  conditions  guarantee  salaries  of  teachers  and  other 
costs  of  current  expense.  But  the  problem  of  providing  suitable  building  facilities 
in  a  district  which  has  an  influx  of  200  migratory  children  for  only  2  months  each 
year  is  a  special  problem.  Many  States  have  such  problems  and  many  ways  of 
solving  them  have  been  tried.  One  State  in  particular  has  definitely  taken  steps 
to  provide  schools  for  the  children  of  migratory  workers. 

The  laws  of  the  State  of  California  provide  that  State  funds  not  to  exceed  $75 
per  teacher  and  an  equal  amount  of  county  funds  may  be  used  for  salaries  of 
teachers  of  migratory  children  whenever  in  the  judgment  of  the  county  superin- 
tendent and  county  board  of  education  such  teacher  or  teachers  are  necessary. 
The  funds  provided  for  this  purpose,  however,  are  hardly  suflBcient  for  such 
extraordinary  demands  as  required  for  the  establishment  and  maintenance  of 
schools  for  children  of  workers  on  the  Mount  Shasta  Dam  and  for  those  of  laborers 
on  national-defense  projects  in  the  school  district  of  Vallejo  at  the  present  time. 
No  other  State  has  a  provision  of  law  similar  to  this. 

In  his  report  for  1939,  the  commissioner  of  education  of  the  State  of  New 
Jersey  writes:  * 

"This  is  a  serious  problem,  but  I  am  of  the  opinion  that  it  cannot  be  solved  by 
special  schooling  until  the  legislature  passes  acts  which  are  constitutionally  sound 
and  which  prohibit  the  employment  on  school  days  of  nonresident  children  who 
happen  to  be  in  New  Jersey  and  who  are  under  16  years  of  age.  It  will  be 
necessary  for  the  legislature  to  define  a  migrant  child,  to  determine  how  long  he 
may  remain  in  the  State  without  coming  under  the  Compulsory  School  Attend- 
ance Act,  and  to  state  definitely  whether  or  not  such  temporary  resident  if  placed 
in  a  foster  home  by  an  approved  public  or  private  social  agency  may  be  regarded 
as  one  entitled  to  attend  school  in  that  district.  There  should  be  included  defini- 
tions which  enable  us  to  determine  whether  or  not  an  apportionment  of  $4.j  per 
child  should  be  made  to  the  local  school  district.  It  will  be  necessary  to  know 
whether  children  who  come  from  other  States  and  who  live  here  the  major  portion 
of  the  school  year  while  their  parents  live  in  another  State  are  entitled  to  free 
schooling. 

"In  my  judgment,  this  is  a  problem  concerning  which  we  must  have  a  definite 
State  policy.  Certainly  these  children  should  receive  a  free  public-school  educa- 
tion either  in  their  own  communities  or  in  New  Jersey.  Some  of  them  remain 
here  as  long  as  100  days  each  year,  but  the  great  majority  are  here  only  from  10  to 
40  days.  Very  definite  provision  should  be  made  for  them.  It  is  not  a  very 
large  problem,  however,  as  most  recent  data  indicate  that  there  were  last  year  only 
some  656  children  in  the  State  who  may  be  classified  as  'migrants.'  " 

POSSIBLE  SOLUTION 

1.  A  definite  State  policy  which  includes : 

(a)  Residence  of  pupils.  Provision  for  the  schooling  of  children  irrespective  of 
the  time  they  have  lived  in  the  State. 

(6)  Compulsory  attendance.  Provision  for  the  compulsory  attendance  of  all 
children  of  migratory  workers,  as  of  nonmigratory  children. 

(c)  Financial  program.  Provision  for  State  funds  for  the  support  of  all  State- 
approved  schools  for  migratory  children. 

2.  Definite  Federal  Government  policy  which  includes : 

(a)  Authorization  for  continuing  appropriation  sufficient  to  pay  all  salaries  of 
the  teachers  necessary  for  children  who  have  migrated  into  the  resi)ective  States 
during  the  current  school  year. 

(&)  Special  provision  for  the  use  of  Federal  Government  funds  for  school 
building  purposes  in  emergency  situations,  such  as  the  school  building  crisis  now 
present  in  many  communities  as  a  result  of  the  national-defense  activities. 


*  Elliott,  Charles  H.,  Annual  Report  of  the  Commissioner  of  Education  for  the  School 
Year  Ending  June  30,  1939,  pp.  16-17. 


2^gg  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

TESTIMONY  OF  HENRY  S.  ALVES— Resumed 

Mr.  Parsons.  Your  statement  contains  a  great  deal  of  data  with 
reference  to  the  education  of  migrant  children,  and  you  quote  from 
studies  of  Luella  M.  King,  which  compares  the  retarding  of  mi- 
grants with  nonmigrant  rural  children  in  the  various  States. 

Do  you  have  any  information  as  to  the  proportion  of  migrants 
of  nonagricultural  children  and  their  retardation  in  schools? 

Mr.  Alves.  We  have  very  little  information;  in  fact,  it  is  too 
limited  on  the  whole  proposition,  so  far  as  the  children  themselves 
are  concerned.    The  information  we  have  in  the  main  is  limited. 

Mr.  Parsons.  This  is  mainly  a  new  problem  that  has  arisen  prin- 
cipally in  the  last  decade,  has  it  not? 

Mr.  Alves.  I  do  not  think  it  is  necessarily  a  new  problem,  but 
we  have  not  paid  enough  attention  to  it  perhaps. 

Mr.  Parsons.  It  has  become  more  acute,  we  will  say,  in  the  last 
decade  than  formerly. 

Mr.  Alves.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Your  statement  suggests  as  a  part  of  a  possible  solu- 
tion that  provision  be  made  from  the  Federal  Treasury  of  appro- 
priation for  the  payment  of  teachers'  salaries  where  teachers  are 
necessary  for  migrants. 

Will  you  comment  on  that  to  the  committee,  please  ? 

FEDERAL   FUNDS  TO  EDUCATE   MIGRANTS 

Mr.  Alves.  Yes.  Basically  any  time  children  are  moved  into  tem- 
porary residence,  that  automatically  creates  a  school  difficulty;  and 
also  basically  any  time  any  large  number  of  such  children  get  into 
a  local  area  it  upsets  automatically  the  normal  planning  for  provid- 
ing educational  facilities  in  that  locality. 

The  statement  shows  that  two  types  of  migration  involve  two 
problems,  as  defined  by  Miss  King. 

The  complicating  factor  in  the  problem  of  providing  schools  for 
migrant  workers  results  because  many  school  budgets,  in  fact,  those 
of  all  the  States,  are  prepared  on  the  basis  of  a  tax  levy  which 
remains  for  that  year. 

Should  it  happen  that  in  a  given  locality  you  have  a  fairly  con- 
stant number  of  children  of  these  workers  in  the  district,  and  in 
your  local  schools  at  this  time  each  year,  that  fact  could  be  con- 
sidered in  the  preparation  of  the  budget  within  the  limited  financial 
ability  of  the  locality. 

On  the  other  hand,  if  the  number  is  not  constant,  as  is  particu- 
larly the  case  right  now  in  the  country,  if  a  very  large  number 
come  in  and  are  not  registered  you  have  a  very  serious  difficulty, 
which  is  quite  obvious. 

Even  if  it  were  possible  for  a  given  locality  to  take  care  of  the 
normal  procedure,  when  you  have  an  influx  of  children  into  a 
locality  it  may  even  prevent  the  local  authorities  from  securing  from 
regular  channels  sufficient  funds  to  provide  funds  for  current  ex- 
penses; that  is,  for  teachers'  salaries  particularly.     It  is  actually 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3597 

doing  that  in  a  number  of  definite  localities.  Over  and  above  that, 
the  locality  would  have  difficulty  in  providing  capital  outlay  funds, 
that  is,  for  buildings  and  equipment,  because  it  is  the  general  prac- 
tice in  States  to  have  a  limitation  insofar  as  localities  are  concerned, 
with  reference  to  bonded  indebtedness. 

Where  these  groups,  the  migratory  children  particularly,  come 
from  States  to  the  community  and  may  be  there  for  a  limited  time, 
naturally  it  presents  a  temporary  problem  because  even  in  this 
way  it  is  an  addition  to  the  requirements  which  the  localities  are 
faced  with  in  their  regular  program.  It  is  not  only  difficult  for 
the  locality,  but  the  States  have  difficulty  in  making  provisions  on  a 
temporary  basis. 

PROBLEM  OF  SCHOOL  FINANCING 

Mr.  Parsons.  What  are  the  basic  reasons  for  the  inequalities  in 
the  standards  of  education  in  the  various  States? 

Mr.  Alves.  What  are  the  basic  reasons? 

Mr.  Parsons.  Yes;  for  these  inequalities.  Is  it  a  matter  of  taxa- 
tion? 

Mr.  Alves.  Financing,  of  course,  is  back  of  it  all.  But,  so  far  as 
this  particular  problem  goes,  if  you  have  an  influx  of  a  thousand 
children  in  a  community  that  normally  has  only  1,200,  you  can  see 
the  type  of  problems  that  come  up. 

Capital  outlay  is  usually — in  fact  in  all  the  States — is  the  respon- 
sibility of  the  locality.  States  as  yet  have  not  gone  into  the  program 
of  providing  funds  from  State  sources  for  buildings,  with  a  few 
exceptions. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  right.  And  many  States  have  not  gone  into 
a  program  of  State-wide  distribution  of  funds  for  the  benefit  of  poor 
localities. 

Mr.  Alves.  Even  in  the  case  of  those  States  that  do  have  State- 
wide distribution,  you  have  got  varying  bases  or  methods  of  dis- 
tributing those  funds. 

Wliere  these  gi-oups  of  children  of  migratory  workers  come  into 
localities  of  one  State  from  another  State,  for  just  temporary  resi- 
dence, it  does  not  seem  logical  to  expect  the  local  community  to 
vote  bonds  to  put  up  buildings  that  will  house  these  folks  6  months 
in  the  year  or  may  house  them  for  2  years,  and  never  house  them 
again. 

Mr.  Curtis.  At  that  point  I  think  it  is  weU  to  call  to  your  atten- 
tion the  testimony  of  an  expert  witness  who  appeared  before  us 
in  our  San  Francisco  hearing  and  whose  name  I  shall  ask  a  mem- 
ber of  the  staff  to  supply. 

He  had  gone  into  this  problem  and  made  intensive  studies  of  the 
situation  in  California  where  they  had  been  on  the  receiving  end 
of  so  many  thousands  of  families.  He  came  before  us  with  a  num- 
ber of  charts. 

It  was  his  opinion  that,  contrary  to  the  views  of  many  local  people, 
chambers  of  commerce  and  otherwise,  that  California  was  not 
making  any  additional  capital  outlay  for  buildings  and  school  plants 


qrgo  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

because  of  the  migrant  problem;  that  they  were  an  ambitious,  for- 
ward-looking people  and  were  building  for  the  future,  and  that 
by  and  large  California  school  building  costs  were  not  going  up 
because  of  these  migrants.  Well,  one  reason  was  that  they  claimed 
to  be  able  to  assimilate  these  people.  There  was  a  popular  erroneous 
notion  prevalent  that  it  was  adequate,  of  course,  but  he  presented 
a  very  fine  paper  to  the  committee  indicating  that  it  was  not. 

Mr,  Alves.  Of  course,  it  is  perfectly  possible  that  a  certain  num- 
ber of  pupils  in  any  school  system  can  be  absorbed  to  the  extent 
that  the  present  plant  facilities  are  not  utilized.  In  other  words,  you 
do  have  one  other  possible  factor  that  enters  into  it,  and  that  is  the 
utilization  of  facilities.  It  is  conceivable  that  if  you  have  a  school 
plant  that  now  houses  2,000  children,  if  you  put  on  two  shifts,  y^u 
can  house  4,000.  That  is  something  that  has  not  been  done.  We 
do  not  start  a  shift  at  8  in  the  morning  and  another  one  at  4  m  the 
afternoon,  except  for  defense  training;  I  mean,  for  elementary 
pupils.  .    ,      ..^^  . 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  the  schoolhouse  that  is  constructed  m  1940  is 
ordinarily  planned  for  a  possible  school  population  of  15  or  20  years 
later,  is  it  not? 

SCHOOL    HOUSING    DUTICULTlES 

Mr.  Alves.  Well,  that  effort  is  there,  all  right;  that  is,  the  inten- 
tion is  there,  but  quite  often  we  miss  it  by  a  great  deal.  It  is  pretty 
hard  to  tell.  It  depends  on  the  local  community.  It  depends  on 
the  type  of  community  that  it  is. 

I  have  seen  locations  where  a  building  was  put  up  with  the  idea 
that  it  would  be  fully  occupied  in  5  years  and  they  never  did  use 
more  than  3  rooms  out  of  a  10-room  building. 

I  do  not  think  we  can  take  that  type  of  situation  as  a  general 
thing. 

Mr.  Curtis.  We  will  always  have  to  contend  with  the  situation 
of  the  sudden  collapse  of  some  new  industry  or  of  a  sudden  boom 
being  created. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Mr.  Alves,  for  8  years  I  was  connected  with  the 
educational  system  of  the  State  of  Illinois  and  had  a  great  deal 
to  do  with  a  great  many  buildings.  It  is  my  belief  that  the  situa- 
tion there  is  not  unlike  that  of  other  States,  and  it  was  my  observa- 
tion and  experience  that  they  waited  until  they  were  already  over- 
crowded before  they  built.  They  usually  built  to  take  care  of  just 
about  what  the  load  was  at  the  time,  or  perhaps  looked  forward  a 
few  years  into  the  future. 

Mr.  Alves.  I  think  that  is  an  observation  that  would  apply  gen- 
erally, for  this  reason :  because  of  the  fact  that  your  capital  outlay 
the  country  over  is  a  responsibility  that  has  been  placed  on  the 
locality.  Everybody  thinks  that  is  where  the  capital  outlay  funds 
ought  to  come  from.  With  the  exception  of  your  highly  concen- 
trated centers  of  population,  it  is  very  difficult,  in  the  average  local 
school  unit,  to  vote  more  than  just  what  they  absolutely  have  to 
have,  because  you  have  other  purposes,  other  types  of  governmental 
service,  which  require  capital  outlay. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3599 

Of  course,  there  are  many  ramifications  and  many  factors  that 
I  do  not  think  j^ou  want  to  go  into  here.  But  I  think  that  your 
observation  is  quite  generally  accurate. 

Mr.  Parsons.  In  the  case  of  the  problem  that  we  are  now  studying, 
of  course,  you  are  vitally  interested  in  the  Office  of  Education,  is 
that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Alves.  Yes. 

Mr.  Parsons.  And  in  looking  after  the  education  of  the  children 
of  the  migrant  workers  in  the  defense  program.  But  those  children 
are  not  working  as  are  the  children  of  the  migrant  agricultural 
worker  who  really  bring  in  more  income  to  the  family,  perhaps, 
than  the  adults;  for  instance,  the  fruit-picking,  the  potato-picking, 
perhaps  even  in  the  case  of  the  cotton-picking  and  the  sugar-beet 
harvesting. 

Now,  in  that  particular  case,  the  children  never  have  an  oppor- 
tunity, at  the  time  of  the  year  when  there  is  school,  of  going  to 
school. 

What  studies  have  been  made  and  what  observations  would  you 
have  to  offer  as  to  that  problem?  To  me,  throughout  all  of  these 
hearings,  that  has  been  the  worst  feature  of  the  migrant's  problem, 
the  future  of  these  citizens  when  they  become  adults. 

Mr.  Al\tes.  Your  question  is  not  with  particular  reference  to  the 
defense  program? 

Mr.  Parsons.  Not  this  particular  one;  no. 

ROVING  TEXAS  CROP  WORKERS 

Mr.  Alves.  Unfortunately,  if  there  are  any  studies,  of  any  extent, 
I  am  not  familiar  with  them.  I  can  respond  from  personal  experience 
which  covers  about  30  years.  I  happen  to  be  from  a  State  that  got 
quite  a  bit  of  lauding  this  morning,  the  grand  State  of  Texas.  I  have 
seen  the  same  roving  worker  in  the  Laredo  area,  in  December-January, 
where,  if  he  was  not  forced  to  go  out  into  the  onion  fields,  he  had  a 
chance  to  go  to  school  for  6  weeks.  I  have  seen  him  some  60  days 
later  in  what  is  called  the  winter-garden  section,  where  the  parents 
went  to  work  in  the  spinach  fields,  the  asparagus  fields,  or  picked 
peaches.  I  have  seen  him  in  May  and  June,  around  the  San  Antonio 
area,  in  the  cotton  fields  and  in  the  fall,  in  October,  I  found  him  around 
Lubbock,  where  his  parents  and  perhaps  he  also  were  picking  cotton. 
And  I  understand  that  just  a  little  bit  later  you  may  find  him  in 
Colorado,  with  a  move  that  brings  him  back  to  the  Rio  Grande  Valley 
in  December  or  January.  Specifically,  the  problems  that  you  get  into 
are  merely  these.  There  are  two  types  of  effects.  One  is  on  the  child 
and  the  other  one  is  on  the  local  school  system  where  he  happens  to  be, 
provided  he  is  given  a  chance  to  go  to  school. 

The  effect  on  the  child  is  quite  obvious.  He  is  out  of  school  a  great 
portion  of  the  time,  especially  if  he  is  a  member  of  a  low-income  family, 
as  most  of  those  seasonal  workers  are.  By  the  time  he  is  8  years  old 
he  is  going  to  pick  cotton  or  he  is  going  to  get  out  into  the  onion  fields 
unless  something  stops  him  from  going  there.  Theoretically  that  is  the 
compulsory-education  law. 


3gQ(j  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  he  is  on  the  move  so  much  that  the  compulsory- 
education  law  seldom  catches  up  with  him. 

Mr.  Alves.  That  is  true,  or  perhaps  let  us  get  him  in  a  situation 
where  the  compulsory-education  law  is  conscientiously  enforced.  Here 
is  this  local  school  system  of  8  rooms  that  are  already  just  about  full, 
finding  200  of  these  children  to  take  care  of  within  a  2-mile  radius, 
living  here,  there,  and  yonder.  The  local  school  authorities  are  not 
going  to  be  putting  forth  too  much  effort  to  pick  up  another  200  to  put 
in  rooms  already  crowded. 

Mr.  Parsons.  We  found  this  during  our  first  hearings  in  New  York. 
About  fifty  to  sixty  thousand  agricultural  workers,  including  the  chil- 
dren, starting  from  Florida,  say,  in  December,  or  not  later  than  Janu- 
ary, working  in  the  small  fruits  and  vegetables,  coming  farther  north 
as  the  season  opens,  into  the  Carolinas;  up  the  coast,  winding  up  in 
New  Jersey  in  July  and  August;  then  starting  back  down,  probably 
picking  cotton  on  the  way  back,  harvesting  tobacco  later  on  in  the  fall. 
So  that  that  family,  with  its  children,  is  on  the  road  at  least  10  months 
of  the  year,  without  any  opportunity  for  those  children,  especially  from 
10  to  14  years  of  age,  to  look  inside  of  a  schoolroom.  And  they  bring 
more  income  into  the  family,  because  of  the  nature  of  the  work,  than 
the  adults  do. 

That  has  only  been  an  acute  problem  in  the  last  10  years  because 
formerly,  if  the  adult  went  north  and  made  somewhat  of  the  same  trip, 
the  family  was  left  domiciled  at  a  particular  spot.  But  now  these  chil- 
dren have  been  on  the  road  for  10  years.  They  are  growing.  They 
will  soon  have  families  of  their  own,  and  yet  have  not  had  any  oppor- 
tunity to  go  to  school  more  than  a  year  or  two  out  of  their  entire  life. 
What  are  we  going  to  do  with  that  kind  of  a  problem  ?  That  is  the 
problem  that  worries  me  more  than  anything  else  about  this  entire 
migrant  picture. 

NEW  LEGISLATION   NECESSARY 

]\Ir.  Al%'es.  Here  is  the  type  of  problem  a  State  faces — and  this  is 
referred  to  on  page  5  of  the  material  that  we  submitted,  and  is  taken 
from  the  report  in  1939  of  the  Commissioner  of  Education  of  the 
State  of  New  Jersey.     (See  p.  3595,  this  volume.)    He  says: 

This  is  a  serious  problem,  but  I  am  of  the  opinion  that  it  cannot  be  solved 
by  special  schooling  until  the  legislature  passes  acts  which  are  constitutionally 
sound  and  which  prohibit  the  employment  on  schools  days  of  nonresident 
children — 

Nonresident  children;  in  other  words,  your  child-labor  laws  are 
operative  within  the  States  and  not  across  the  State  boundaries, 
who  happen  to  be  in  New  Jersey  and  who  are  under  16  years  of  age. 

The  same  statement  can  be  made  relative  to  the  compulsory-educa- 
tion law. 

It  will  be  necessary  for  the  legislature  to  define  a  migrant  child,  to  determine 
how  long  he  may  remain  in  the  State  without  coming  under  the  Compulsory 
School-Attendance  Act    *    *    *. 

It  is  also  necessary  to  define  the  migrant  child  so  that  States  in 
their  respective  programs  of  financing  may  know  when  to  spend  State 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3f;Ql 

money  on  that  child,  because  those  laws  within  a  State  are  all  written 
for  children  who  are  residents  of  the  localities  in  the  State. 

Mr.  Parsoxs.  And  whose  parents  are  generally  taxpayers,  if  they 
possess  any  property. 

Mr.  Al%t:s.  The  average  State  le^lation  reads  about  like  this: 
That  a  child  from  such  an  age  to  such  an  age  is  entitled  t^o  attend 
the  public  free  schools  in  the  locality,  the  school  district,  or  the  town, 
or  the  city  where  his  parents  resicle.  The  question  is.  first  of  all, 
where  do  these  folks  reside  ?  You  are  going  to  find,  of  course,  as  you 
know,  a  lot  of  them  will  not  say  that  any  State  is  their  residence. 
So  you  hare  that  type  of  problem. 

Xow,  over  and  above  what  the  .States  could  do  in  their  own  legis- 
lation to  clarify  the  problems,  as  suggested  in  this  Xew  Jersey  report, 
you  do  have  that  field  in  which  the  State  will  not  have  jurisdiction 
because  these  migrants  go  from  State  to  State.  It  seems  that  the  only 
agency  that  can  come  in  and  help  on  that  is  the  Federal  Government. 

I  do  not  see,  in  other  words,  how  legislation  coidd  be  passed  in 
Florida  that  would  compel  New  Jersej'  to  take  care  of  the  children 
that  come  from  Florida  and  stay  in  Xew  Jersey  for  6  weeks. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  very  true. 

iMr.  Al\-es.  Of  course,  you  may  say,  "Well,  it  is  a  matter  of  re- 
ciprocal action."'  Yes,  but  it  is  just  himian  nature :  when  we  get  far 
from  home,  we  are  not  noticed  as  much. 

Mr.  Parsons.  I  think  it  is  a  very  good  idea  for  children  to  want 
to  work  with  their  hands. 

^Ir.  Alves.  Yes,  agreed. 

3rrsT  have  feze  education 

;Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  what  made  America  great.  I  am  not  averse 
to  that  in  the  summer  season.  But  we  do  realize  in  this  country  a 
responsibihty,  and  it  was  one  of  the  thoughts  of  the  founders  of  the 
country,  the  authors  of  the  Constitution,  that  in  a  democracy  we  must 
have  free  public  education.  And  while  these  children  are  getting  a 
better  experience  in  some  respects  than  the  average  child  gets,  so  far 
as  learning  to  do  things  and  learning  to  live  with  himself  and  with 
others,  yet  at  the  same  time  we  recognize  that  he  must  have  some 
opportunity  to  acquire  knowledge  from  the  printed  page  and  from 
school  institutions. 

The  big  problem  to  me  is  how  we  are  going  to  educate  these  chil- 
dren who  are  constantly  on  the  move,  whose  services  are  needed 
in  order  to  make  the  family  budget  sufficient  to  take  care  of  them- 
selves. 

We  must  attack  it  from  two  angles,  I  think.  One  is.  we  must  stop 
them  from  working  during  the  school  period. 

Mr.  Al^xs.  That  is  correct. 

^Ir.  Parsons.  Some  means  must  be  found  to  do  that.  And  then,  sec- 
ondly, we  must  have  the  institutions  which  they  may  attend  at  the 
points  where  they  find  themselves  in  the  school  period.  Do  you  agree 
with  that  ? 

^b-.  Alves.  That  is  right.  Xow.  the  States  have  done  both  of  those 
things  for  citizens  within  the  boimdaries.    Legislatively,  in  the  main, 


3602 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


they  have.  But  when  Johnnie  Jones  gets  out  of  his  State  for  6  weeks 
nobody  claims  him,  nobody  can  touch  him  because  he  is  not  a  resident ; 
you  have  got  your  residence  laws.  So  it  takes  cooperative  effort  over 
and  beyond  what  a  State  may  do  within  its  own  boundaries. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Very  well ;  enough  on  that.  Now,  the  committee  would 
like  to  hear  from  you  with  reference  to  the  contemplated  program  in 
national  defense  for  the  education  of  tliese  migrant  people. 

Mr.  Alves.  Are  you  referring  to  the  study  called  for  in  connection 
with  the  defense  housing  program  projects? 

Mr.  Parson.  That  is  right.  You  were  touching  on  that  when  I  broke 
in  with  this  other  subject. 

Mr.  Alves.  Yes. 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  were  about  to  say,  I  think,  that  in  the  case  of 
overcrowded  conditions  they  put  on  a  double  shift. 

Mr.  Alves.  The  reason  I  was  hesitating  a  little  was  the  use  of  your 
word  migratory  there.  They  are  not  all  migratory  children  that  go 
into  these  localities. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Not  at  all.  You  might  term  that  the  surplus,  the 
extra  ones,  that  come  in ;  the  extra  migrants  that  come  in,  which  makes 
it  a  problem  of  surplus. 

Mr.  Alves.  The  question  then  comes  down  to  this :  How  will  school 
facilities  be  provided  for  the  influx  of  children  of  persomiel  connected 
with  activities  of  the  defense  program  in  concentrated  areas  ?  Is  that 
right  ?    That  is  the  question,  is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  the  question. 

STUDY  EDUCATION  OF  DEFENSE  ^VlORKERS'  CHILDREN 

Mr.  Alves.  Our  office,  in  response  to  the  requests  of  the  Secretary  of 
War  and  the  Secretary  of  the  Navy,  is  making  the  study  called  for 
under  Senate  Kesolution  324,  which,  as  you  know,  is  the  resolution 
requiring  the  Secretary  of  War  and  the  Secretary  of  the  Navy  to  make 
a  full  and  complete  study  of  school  facilities  at  or  near  navy  yards, 
Army  or  military  reservations.  Army  or  Navy  bases,  at  which  defense- 
housing  programs  are  being  carried  on  or  are  contemplated,  to  deter- 
mine first  whether  defense-housing  programs  require  additional  school 
facilities;  second,  whether  localities  where  such  influx  of  population 
takes  place  are  in  a  position  to  provide  those  facilities;  and  third, 
whether  the  Federal  Government  should  provide  such  school  facilities 
irrespective  of  the  financial  ability  of  the  locality.  Now,  that  study 
is  in  progress  and  our  office  is  working  through  the  offices  of  Stat© 
superintendents  and  commissioners  of  education  in  the  respective 
States. 

We  are  hoping  and  planning  on  the  basis  of  the  information  that  is 
now  available,  relative  to  these  local  areas,  to  have  estimates  of  needed 
school  facilities  submitted  by  the  respective  chief  State  school  officers 
of  those  areas,  in  the  States  that  are  involved.  We  hope  to  have  that 
information  within  the  next  10  days.  Much  of  it  will  be  tentative, 
because  we  have  not  at  tliis  time  a  definite  base  for  each  locality  to  work 
on.  Specifically,  if  the  munitions-plant  project  at  Wilmington,  just 
south  of  Joliet,  111.,  has  not  reached  a  state  of  development  where  the 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3603 

housing  authorities  may  definitely  plan  and  thus  recommend  definite 
allocations,  any  estimates  that  are  now  prepared  for  that  area  would 
just  have  to  be  tentative.    They  are  purely  estimates. 

I  have  not  answered  any  question  yet  that  you  have  raised  and 
cannot  answer  it  except  in  one  way,  and  I  am  afraid  I  am  getting 
outside  of  the  territory  of  this  discussion. 

HOUSING   PROVIDES    SMALL   SCHOOL   FUND 

The  act  known  as  the  Lanham  bill,  Public,  849,  which  is  the  De- 
fense Housing  Act,  makes  provision  out  of  that  appropriation  for 
community  facilities,  which  is  defined  to  include  schools,  but  it 
limits  it  to  3  percent  of  the  total  appropriation,  the  amount  of  money 
that  may  be  spent  out  of  that  appropriation  for  community  facilities. 
In  other  words,  3  percent  of  $150,000,000  is  $4,500,000  for  community 
facilities,  including  health,  sanitation,  schools,  police,  and  fire  pro- 
tection, if  necessary,  and  so  on. 

The  provision  in  section  9  of  that  act  is  that  the  administrator  of 
the  act  may  make  payments  of  annual  sums  in  lieu  of  taxes. 

I  cite  those  two  provisions  as  the  most  definite  answer  to  the 
question,  How  will  these  be  provided?  Those  are  the  only  two  pro- 
visions that  definitely,  so  far  as  the  Federal  Government  is  concerned, 
make  provision  for  school  facilities  in  those  local  areas  affected  by 
the  activities  of  the  defense  program. 

Mr.  Parsons.  It  is  the  only  source  of  any  material  aid. 

Mr.  Alves.  To  date. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Yes. 

Mr.  Alves.  I  do  not  now  whether  that  is  the  type  of  answer  you 
wanted  here.  Outside  of  that,  I  know  of  no  special  definite  provisions 
for  that  except  that,  again,  the  locality  and  the  State  will  have  to 
do  the  best  they  can. 

Mr.  Curtis.  At  that  point,  these  defense  industries  are  a  very 
coveted  thing,  are  they  not? 

Mr.  Parsons.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Each  community  is  clamoring  for  defense  industries. 
Now,  in  order  for  a  community  to  secure  some  of  these,  they  state 
that  they  have  sufficient  transportation  facilities  and  they  have  other 
tilings  that  they  will  be  glad  to  furnish  the  Government  and  the 
industry  that  is  going  to  locate  there.  Why  should  not  we  explore 
the  possibilities  of  placing  definite  requirements  upon  the  locality 
before  they  secure  a  defense  industry  with  regard  to  the  education 
of  tlie  children  of  the  people  that  the  industry  is  going  to  iDring  in  ? 

Mr.  Alves.  I  presume  that  was  already  being  done.  Of  course, 
that  is  not  in  our  jurisdiction  in  the  office  of  education.  But  I 
presume  that  was  done.  However,  even  though  you  explore  those 
conditions,  you  have  not  anywhere  covered  the  total  realm  of  the 
problem. 

Mr.  Curtis.  That  is  very  true. 

Mr.  Parsons.  How  many  youths — if  you  can  give  any  estimate 

may  receive  training  in  this  program  that  is  under  study  at  the 
present  time? 

Mr.  Alves.  How  many  youths  ? 

260370— 41— pt.  9 10 


ggQ^  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

YOUTH  TRAINING  AND  HOUSING  PROBLEMS 

Mr.  Parsons.  Could  you  give  an  estimate  on  the  studies  that  have 
been  made,  or  that  are  under  way  at  the  present  time,  as  to  how 
many  youths  may  be  given  training  ? 

Mr.  Alves.  I  think  my  own  answer  to  that  would  be  an  indication  of 
the  procedure  followed  to  try  to  get  that  estimate.  We  are  not  far 
enough  along  for  me  to  be  safe  in  saying  50,000  or  100,000.  In  those 
local  areas  where  there  have  been  definite  allocations  for  housing  units 
we  have  a  distinct,  tangible  guide  that  can  be  used.  For  example,  if 
in  a  local  area  there  are  1,000  housing  units  authorized,  and  each  of 
those  units  will  accommodate  on  an  average  a  family  of  four  or  five 
members— two  adults  and  two  or  three  children — on  the  basis  of  that 
information  we  can  apply  the  ratio  of  children  of  school  age  to  the 
total  population  and  get  an  estimate  of  the  number  of  children 
involved. 

Now,  if  I  may  project  that— and  this  is  purely  an  estimate ;  please 
understand  I  am  not  quoting  anything  definite  and  do  not  have  it- 
let  us  assume  that  there  are  a  hundred  thousand  housing  units  needed 
in  the  local  areas  because  of  the  influx  of  personnel  connected  directly 
with  some  project  of  the  defense  program,  whether  it  is  an  army  camp, 
or  a  navy  yard,  a  munitions  plant,  a  steel  works,  an  aviation  plant,  or 
what  not.  One  hundred  thousand  housing  units  of  this  type  automati- 
cally means  families,  or  there  would  not  be  any  housing  units.  If  the 
100,000  averages  4  members  to  the  family,  that  makes  400,000  people. 
Even  if  we  accept  the  general  ratio  on  a  Nation-wide  basis,  we  know 
that  one-fifth  to  one-fourth  of  that  population  of  400,000  will  be  chil- 
dren of  school  age. 

If  it  is  100,000  individuals,  we  have  something  tangible  to  start 
working  on.  As  soon  as  we  have  definite  information  from  the  schools 
in  each  of  the  local  areas  as  to  how  many  additional  children  they  can 
absorb  into  their  existing  school  plant  facilities  to  fill  them  up  com- 
pletely, all  we  need  to  do  is  to  subtract  that  figure  from  100,000  and  we 
have  a  figure  that  would,  roughly,  represent  the  number  of  children 
for  whom  no  school  facilities  are  available. 

Just  for  argument's  sake,  I  am  going  to  guess  you  cannot  absorb 
more  than  one-third  of  these.  I  think  my  guess  is  high,  but  I  am 
still  guessing  it.  So  I  will  say  immediately  we  will  have  around  60,000 
to  65,000  children  who  are  dislocated,  so  far  as  schools  go.  They  have 
been  taken  away  from  some  place  where  they  have  been  going  to  school ; 
they  have  been  placed  in  a  position  where  there  are  no  school  facilities. 

Now,  again,  if  we  go  on  the  basis  of  a  general  average,  say,  of  30 
pupils  to  a  teacher,  there  immediately  arises  a  need  for  2,000  teaching 
rooms,  classroom  units,  to  accommodate  60,000  pupils.  Now,  if  I  have 
guessed  anywhere  near  correctly,  100,000  units  would  permit  us  to  go 
either  under  or  over  and  above,  as  we  get  the  exact  figures.  I  do  not 
know  whether  100,000  units  is  right.  I  said  100,000  because  I  think  I 
am  away  low.  A  recent  figure  I  saw  officially  I  think  indicates  there 
are  around  60,000  or  better. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  you  think  you  will  have  this  information  withm 
the  next  10  days? 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3605 

Mr.  Alves.  We  hope  to  get  from  the  States,  by  about  December 
16,  an  estimate  of  the  needs  in  those  local  areas  for  which  they  could 
secure,  from  such  sources  as  the  employment  service  and  the  houf^- 
ing  authorities,  information  of  a  sufficient  nature,  sufficiently  reli- 
able nature,  that  would  permit  them  to  make  an  estimate.  We  hope 
to  have  that  by  December  16  and  then,  under  that  resolution,  we  have 
to  prepare  the  reports  to  the  War  and  Navy  Departments ;  but  I  pre- 
sume we  will  be  called  on  by  other  interested  Federal  agencies  in  this 
whole  field,  such  as  the  housing  agencies  and  certain  sections  of  the 
Advisory  Commission  of  the  Defense  Council,  too. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Now,  the  committee  will  not  close  its  hearings  until 
about  the  12th,  and  the  printing  of  the  record  will  not  be  closed, 
upon  suspension  of  the  hearings,  until  probably  a  few  days  after 
that  and,  if  you  have  those  figures  by  the  16th  or  I7th,  we  could  use 
them  here  at  this  point  in  the  record.  I  think  the  committee  would 
like  to  have  them  and,  if  you  have  permission  to  do  that,  we  would 
be  glad  to  have  you  send  them  down  as  soon  as  you  get  them.  The 
chances  are  these  hearings  will  not  go  to  press  until  around  the  20th 
of  December,  or  maybe  the  first  of  the  year,  and  we  would  like  to 
have  the  benefit  of  those  figures  in  the  record  at  this  point. 

Mr.  Alves.  I  will  certainly  be  glad  to  carry  that  message  and 
request  back  to  the  Commission. 

^Ir.  Parsons.  And  if  you  can  get  it,  you  can  send  it  directly  to  the 
committee  here  at  the  Old  House  Office  Building. 

Mr.  Alves.  Yes. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  you  have  any  figures  or  estimates  on  how  many 
youth  are  being  trained  in  private  vocational  schools  at  the  present 
time  ? 

Mr.  Alves.  In  private  vocational  schools — I  do  not  know,  but  I 
am  sure  the  vocational  division  would  have. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Of  course,  the  N.  Y.  A.  is  planning  quite  a  defense 
program  in  the  way  of  training  both  boys  and  girls  in  certain  voca- 
tions that  might  be  of  aid  and  assistance  in  the  national  defense  pro- 
gram, if  the  worst  came  to  the  worst. 

Are  there  any  questions? 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  would  like  to  ask  just  one.  Mr,  Alves,  under 
5'our  possible  solutions,  I  notice  it  is  recommended  that  the  Federal 
Government's  policy  include  authorization  for  continuing  appropria- 
tions sufficient  to  pay  all  salaries  of  the  teachers  necessary  for  chil- 
dren who  have  migrated  into  the  respective  States  during  the  cur- 
rent school  year.  The  only  thought  I  have  in  mind  is  this:  If  you 
are  going  to  give  that  help  to  those  States  that  are  on  the  receiving 
end  of  these  migrants,  a  great  many  of  whom  are  going  to  be  ab- 
sorbed as  a  part  of  the  permanent  population  of  that  State,  then 
in  fairness  and  justice  should  not  you  give  it  to  these  States  that 
have  educated  them  up  to  that  point.  States  which  are  losing  them 
as  a  part  of  their  permanent  population  ? 

Mr.  Alves.  Of  course,  if  I  understand  your  question  correctly,  I 
think  you  are  going  into  a  much  broader  problem  than  this  is. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  realize  I  am,  but  it  does  tie  in  with  this. 


3606  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

MIGRATING    SCHOOL    TEACHERS 

Mr.  Alves.  Yes,  that  is  true.  Now,  one  idea  in  connection  with 
the  suggestion  for  an  authorization  would  be  this;  If  you  had  a 
group  01  100  families  that  start  from  Florida  and  wind  up  8  months 
later  in  New  Jersey  in  the  cranberry  bottoms,  and  in  that  group  of 
100  families  you  have  100  children,  say,  of  elementary  school  age, 
those  children  would  receive  much  greater  benefits  by  having  2  or  3 
teachers  who  would  just  go  right  along  with  them.  That  is  so  because 
the  effect  on  the  child  of  attending  3  or  4  different  schools  in  a  year, 
even  if  he  does  not  go  to  work,  is  quite  degrading  to  the  child  itself. 
And  our  point  here  is  that  that,  of  course,  would  have  to  be  done  in 
accordance  with  good  financial  procedure,  with  the  funds  paid  if,  as, 
and  when,  on  the  basis  of  definite  plans,  the  State  showed  a  need  for  it. 

The  whole  purpose  of  that  statement  is  to  recognize  the  fact  that 
the  child  may  be  in  three,  or  four,  or  five  States  during  the  school 
year,  and  a  given  State  may  take  care  of  that  child — may  follow 
him  up,  may  see  that  he  goes  to  school,  may  make  provision  for 
him  within  its  boundaries,  but  the  minute  he  goes  out  of  that 
boundary  he  is  gone.  Now,  to  guarantee  that  the  very  thing  does 
not  happen  that  was  mentioned  a  while  ago,  namely,  that  the  child  is 
not  penalized,  it  occurs  the  only  way  out  is  to  have  a  continuous 
check,  and  perhaps  that  will  call  for  this  type  of  financial  assistance.. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  can  easily  see  it  from  the  explanation  you  give 
there,  but  I  did  not  see  that  included  in  this  statement  of  yours.  I 
could  not  interpret  it  from  the  recommendation  in  the  printed 
statement. 

Mr.  Alves.  I  think  probably  we  might  have  been  a  little  over- 
cautious not  to  get  into  the  broader  problem  here. 

Mr.  Parsons.  So  your  answer  to  my  question  of  30  minutes  ago, 
on  the  problem  of  the  working  migrant  cliild,  is  to  send  the  teacher 
with  him  ? 

Mr.  Alves.  I  think  that  is  the  better  way,  in  my  own  estimation. 

Mr.  Parsons.  And  you  would  have  the  Federal  Government  coop- 
erate with  the  States  in  giving  Federal  aid  for  that  purpose  ? 

Mr.  Alves.  If  that  is  needed;  if  there  is  need  established. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  is  that  teacher  going  to  hold  school? 

Mr.  Alves.  In  the  school  facilities  in  the  localities.  These  mi- 
grant workers  do  not  just  jump  5  miles,  they  will  jump  500  miles; 
and  in  May  of  each  year  they  will  be  in  about  the  same  area,  in  the 
same  locality,  within  a  10-  or  15-mile  radius.  They  will  come  an- 
nually to  that  same  area  again. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Are  they  going  to  be  segregated  from  the  other 
students? 

staggered  classes,  portable  schools 

Mr.  Alves.  Not  necessarily.  But  there  is  a  10-teacher  school  at 
location  X;  it  can  absorb  30  pupils,  but  200  come  in  regularly,  for  2 
months,  at  a  given  time  of  the  school  year.  Now,  you  cannot  absorb 
the  other  170  in  that  building  unless  you  stagger  the  classes,  stagger 
your  program.    Suppose  the  occasion  arises  where  you  need  to  put  in 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3607 

4  rooms;  it  is  very  questionable  whether  you  would  want  to  build  a 
brick  addition  of  4  rooms,  because  in  3  years'  time  you  might  find  that 
those  4  rooms  would  serve  a  much  better  purpose  20  miles  away.  Now, 
it  is  not  impossible  to  conceive  of  this  thing  of  having  portable  school 
buildings,  such  as  we  use  in  the  mushroom  towns,  in  connection  with 
the  oil  fields,  that  pop  up  overnight;  then,  5  years  later,  they  are 
moved  to  the  next  oil  field.  You  might  have  portable  buildings  that 
go  along  and,  if  you  need  to  move  them  in  3  years,  why,  you  can 
pick  them  up  and  move  them.  But  the  minute  you  get  that  type  of 
provision,  you  cannot  expect  the  given  locality  to  bond  itself  this  year 
when  that  locality  may  know  that  3  years  from  that  time  it  will  not 
need  that.  So  it  becomes  a  responsibility  that  is  beyond  any  one  small 
locality.   That  is  the  first  point  to  recognize,  I  think. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Of  course,  an  itinerant  teacher  with  those  children 
would  be  better  than  none  at  all. 

Mr.  Alves.  Well,  I  think  it  would  be  better  than  having  five  teachers 
in  the  same  year.  Of  course,  that  is  something  you  can  argue  both 
ways. 

Mr.  Parsons.  I  am  inclined  to  agree  with  you  that  it  would  be  better 
than  having  five  teachers  in  the  same  year,  because  they  could  conduct 
night  classes ;  but  you  would  have  to  segregate  them  largely  from  the 
regularly  established  educational  institutions  in  the  community. 

Mr.  Alves.  Maybe  this  does  not  belong  in  the  record,  but  I  would 
certainly  prefer  to  have  my  own  youngster,  9  years  of  age,  be  with 
one  teacher  from  September  to  June  than  to  have  him  with  five 
different  teachers  because  I  move  into  five  different  localities. 

Mr.  Parsons.  There  is  certainly  a  very  decided  advantage  there,  as 
meager  as  it  is,  whatever  it  might  be,  in  travel. 

Mr.  Alves.  Your  portable  facilities  do  not  necessarily  have  to  be 
meager.  I  have  seen  portable  buildings  numbering  20  or  30  in  a 
school  system  that  had  as  many  portable  rooms  as  permanent  rooms, 
and  5  years  later  you  find  only  4  of  those  portable  buildings  and  the 
other  15  or  16  have  been  moved  20  miles.    It  is  possible. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Wherever  they  have  established  camps  and  suitable 
housing  facilities,  like  the  Farm  Security  Administration  has  done 
in  a  few  instances,  a  barracks  or  room,  or  more  than  one  room  if 
necessary,  could  be  set  aside  for  educational  purposes  ? 

Mr.  Alves.  Yes. 

Mr.  Parsons.  And  night  schools  could  be  conducted  along  with  that 
to  suit  the  hours  and  the  needs  of  the  children,  and  they  could  come 
in  for  a  session  in  the  morning  for  certain  training,  and  then  use 
that  during  the  day,  so  that  a  large  number  of  children  would  obtain 
at  least  some  training  with  just  one  or  two  or  three  teachers  for  a 
couple  hundred  children.  I  concede  that  that  plan  would  be  better 
than  no  education  at  all — decidedly  so. 

Mr.  Alves.  Yes;  and  the  mere  fact  these  camps  you  refer  to  have 
been  established  is,  of  course,  a  recognition  that  you  have  a  periodic 
influx  with  considerable  regularity,  is  it  not ;  otherwise  you  would  not 
build  those  camps  ? 

Now,  the  minute  you  have  anything  as  definite  as  that,  if  your  local 
schools  cannot  absorb  the  influx  of  children,  you  can  certainly  make 


3gQ§  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

provision  much  more  readily  through  that  type  of  procedure,  that  is, 
portable  buildings,  than  you  could  if  you  are  going  to  put  up  a  brick 
building  which  might  not  be  used  there  5  years  lat«r. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  the  first  recommendation  of  this  kind  that  we 
have  had  in  our  rounding  out  these  hearings,  and  I  am  very  glad  to 
have  you  put  that  view  forward  in  the  record. 

If  there  are  no  further  questions,  we  thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Alves. 

Mr.  Alves.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Your  statement  has  been  very  fine  and  very  illuminat- 
ing. I  am  sorry  the  other  two  members  of  the  committee  have  not  been 
here  to  hear  this  discussion  this  morning.    Thank  you  very  kindly. 

Mr.  Alves.  I  assure  you,  if  our  office  can  be  of  any  assistance  in  any 
way,  we  will  be  delighted  to  do  our  part. 

(The  committee  thereupon  took  a  recess  until  2  o'clock  p.  m.) 

AFTERNOON  SESSION 

The  committee  reconvened  pursuant  to  the  taking  of  recess,  Hon. 
John  H.  Tolan  (chairman)  presiding. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  come  to  order,  please,  and  I  will 
call  first  Mr.  McCrea. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  McCREA,  TRANSIENT  BUREAU, 
WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

The  Chairman.  Your  name  is  John  McCrea  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes,  sir;  John  McCrea. 

The  Chairman.  Where  do  you  live  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  My  home  is  in  Lancaster,  N.  Y.,  just  out  of  Buffalo. 

The  Chairman.  How  old  are  you  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Thirty-four. 

The  Chairman.  Are  you  married  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  No,  sir ;  I  am  not. 

The  Chairman,  Are  you  a  resident  of  Washington  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  No,  sir ;  I  am  not. 

The  Chairman.  You  call  that  your  home  down  there,  do  you? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Why,  I  left  home  about  11  years  ago,  1929 ;  so  I  don't 
really  have  a  residence  any  more. 

The  Chairman.  How  do  you  happen  to  be  in  Washington  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Why,  I  came  down  here  to  try  to  find  employment,  you 
know,  like  restaurant  work,  hotel  work.  I  find  it  is  very  hard  to  obtain, 
because  they  employ  colored  help,  you  know. 

The  Chairman.  Is  there  anything  in  particular  that  attracted  you  to 
Washington  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  No,  sir ;  not  particularly. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  come  alone? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes,  sir ;  I  did. 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  any  money? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Well,  not  very  much ;  a  little. 

The  Chairman.  How  long  have  you  been  here  in  Washington  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Wliy,  just  about  2  weeks,  now. 


INTERSTATE  MIGR-A.TION  3609 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  been  able  to  get  anything  to  do  ? 

Mr.  JMcCrea.  Why,  just  odd  jobs  and  things  like  that,  since  I  have 
been  in  Washington. 

The  Chairman.  What  kind  of  jobs  do  you  do? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Why,  I  really  don't  have  any  trade  at  all.  I  have  just 
been  picking  up  hotel  work,  restaurant  work,  wherever  I  could  find 
a  job. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  education  have  you  had  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Just  through  high  school. 

The  Chairman.  Are  your  parents  living  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  My  mother  is  living,  and  I  have  a  stepfather  at  home. 

The  Chairman.  He  is  not  working  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  He  is  not  working  at  the  present  time. 

The  Chairman.  How  old  is  your  mother  ? 

Mr,  McCrea.  My  mother  is  just  about  65  years  old  now. 

The  Chairman.  Why  did  you  leave  home — looking  for  a  job? 

Mv.  McCrea.  At  that  time  I  was  employed  at  the  New  York  Central 
Railroad,  just  out  of  Buffalo,  and  I  was  laid  off  because  the  plant  was 
closing  down,  and  I  could  not  find  employment  at  that  time,  and 
having  trouble  with  my  stepfather,  who  is  very  hard  to  get  along  with, 
I  was  just  compelled  to  leave  home. 

The  Chaiiuvian.  Now,  is  this  the  first  place  you  have  visited,  Wash- 
ington, looking  for  work? 

visited  4  3  STATES 

Mr.  McCrea.  No,  sir;  I  have  been  all  over  the  country.  After  I 
first  left  home,  for  about  the  first  4  or  5  years  I  just  more  or  less  had 
the  urge  to  travel,  and  was  picking  up  odd  jobs  and  just  going  around 
the  country.  Then  I  finally  tried  to  settle  down,  you  know,  and  pick 
up  steadier  work. 

The  Chairman.  How  many  States  did  you  visit  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Why,  43  in  all. 

The  Chairman.  Forty-three? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Forty-three;  yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  how  did  you  travel  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  I  hitch-hiked  most  of  the  time.  The  first  couple  of 
years,  of  course,  I  had  my  own  automobile  and  traveled  in  that. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  were  you  able  to  secure  any  employment  in 
those  43  States? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  worked  in  hotels  and  a  couple  of 
different  hospitals,  restaurant  work,  and  have  done  construction  work- 
all  different  kinds  of  odd  jobs. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  ever  live  in  what  is  called  a  migrant 
camp,  any  place  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Well,  I  lived  in  three  different  transient  camps,  when 
the  Transient  Bureau  was  operating. 

The  Chairman.  Where  were  they? 

Mr.  McCrea.  The  first  on©  I  went  into  was  at  Springfield,  111. ;  the 
second  one  was  at  Kansas  City ;  the  third  one  was  at  Springfield,  Mo. 

The  Chairman.  How  were  those  camps — livable  ? 


^QIQ  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  MoCrea.  They  were  very  good;  yes,  sir.  They  kept  you  as 
long  as  you  wished  to  stay,  and  as  long  as  you  were  willing  to  work 
a  few  hours  a  day,  and  the  maintenance  is  very  good,  and  they 
supplied  you  with  clothing. 

The  Chairman.  Were  they  Federal  Government  camps? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Why,  yes,  sir ;  they  were. 

The  Chairman.  What  did  it  cost  you  there? 

Mr.  McCrea.  What  did  it  cost  me  ? 

The  Chairman,  Yes. 

Mr.  McCrea.  Wliy,  it  didn't  cost  me  anything.  You  see,  they 
took  migrants  off  of  the  road,  you  know,  that  were  willing  to  stay 
and  were  trying  to  find  employment  for  themselves,  and  they  could 
stay  in  those  camps  as  long  as  they  desired  and  as  long  as  they  were 
willing  to  work  a  few  hours  a  day.  Of  course,  they  had  the  rest  of 
the  day  to  themselves  and  they  could  go  out  and  try  to  find  employ- 
ment some  place. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  do  your  own  cooking  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Why,  I  was  second  cook  at  a  summer  camp,  the  last 
two  summers  in  the  JBerkshire  Hills  up  in  Massachusetts. 

The  Chairman.  Since  you  left  home,  Mr.  McCrea,  what  was  the 
next  time  you  actually  had  a  job  for  any  period  of  time? 

Mr.  McCrea.  The  next  job  I  had  was  in  Youngstown,  Ohio,  with 
a  construction  company  that  was  putting  a  new  boiler  house  in 
the  Carnegie  steel  plant,  and  that  lasted  pretty  near  a  year. 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  ever  applied  for  relief? 

Mr.  McCrea.  No,  sir ;  t  never  have. 

handicapped  worker 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  think  you  would  have  been  able  to  secure 
employment  if  you  had  some  trade,  or  were  a  skilled  laborer? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes,  sir;  I  believe  I  would;  but  it  is  very  hard  for 
me  to  get  a  job  in  a  factory,  because  I  am  handicapped  through  the 
examination.  I  have  very  poor  eyesight  and,  of  course,  am  unable 
to  pass  the  examination  on  account  of  that.  So  I  usually  have  to 
take  just  restaurant  work,  hotel  work,  and  like  that. 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  ever  had  an  opportunity  to  learn  a 
trade? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Well,  I  did  when  I  worked  with  the  New  York  Cen- 
tral. I  worked  with  the  New  York  Central  for  4  years,  but  I  went 
to  the  stores  department  instead  of  the  mechanical,  and  worked  in 
the  stockroom.  But  I  could  have  gone  ahead  and  learned  the  ma- 
chinist trade,  if  I  had  desired,  which  I  probably  should  have  done. 

The  Chairman.  Where  do  you  call  your  home? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Why,  Lancaster,  N.  Y.,  where  my  mother  is  living 
now. 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  been  voting  there? 

Mr.  McCrea..  Why,  no ;  I  have  not  been  home.  You  see,  I  am 
really  not  a  resident  any  more,  since  I  have  left  home,  and,  of  course, 
the  only  time  I  have  been  at  home  was  just  for  short  visits,  and  then 
I  would  leave  again. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3611 

The  Chairman.  Yon  feel  you  have  lost  your  residence  at  Lancas- 
ter, N.  Y.? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Oh,  yes;  because,  you  see,  it  has  been  quite  a  long 
time  since  I  left.     I  have  not  been  home  now  in  over  2  years. 

The  Chairman.  The  last  two  summers  you  have  worked  in  sunmier 
resort  hotels  in  Massachusetts,  have  you  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes,  sir;  I  have;  up  in  the  Berkshire  Hills,  in  Mas- 
sachusetts. 

The  Chairman.  What  kind  of  work  did  you  do  ? 

Mr,  MoCrea.  Why,  I  worked  as  second  cook  at  the  children's  camp 
up  in  the  Berkshire  Hills.  The  job  only  lasted  about  2  months  and 
2  weeks. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  wages  did  you  receive  ? 

Mr.  MoCrea.  Why,  I  was  receiving  $45  a  month  and  my  main- 
tenance. 

The  Chairman.  And  what  would  you  do  in  the  wintertime? 

Mr.  McCbea.  Why,  in  the  wintertime  I  usually  work  in  restau- 
rants, when  I  could  get  a  job  like  that,  but  the  last  couple  of  win- 
ters I  really  have  not  been  doing  much  of  anything  except  just  pick- 
ing up  odd  work. 

The  Chairman.  The  last  large  city  you  visited  was  Baltimore,  was 
it  not? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes,  sir;  it  was — Baltimore. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  try  to  get  work  there  ? 

NO  JOB  in  BALTIMORE 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes ;  I  did,  but  I  did  not  have  any  success  for  the 
simple  reason  I  did  not  have  any  place  to  stay  in  Baltimore  and  was 
compelled  to  leave. 

The  Chairman.  How  many  places  did  you  visit  in  search  of  work  ? 
^  Mr.  McCrea.  Wliy,  I  visited  quite  a  number  of  restaurants  in  Bal- 
timore, and  a  couple  of  different  hotels,  that  is  all. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  ever  register  with  any  State  employment 
ofl5ce? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes,  sir ;  the  New  York  State  Employment  Office. 

The  Chairman.  With  what  result? 

Mr.  McCrea.  None  whatsoever.    That  was  2  years  ago. 

The  Chairman.  In  your  travels  throughout  the  43  States,  did  you 
meet  many  people  like  yourself? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes,  sir;  I  met  thousands  of  them  and  they  are  really 
just  about  the  same  way  as  I  am ;  they  are  willing  to  work,  and  there 
are  a  lot  of  them  that  can  secure  work,  but  they  are  not  able  to 
finance  themselves  until  they  get  it. 

The  Chairman.  You  found  people,  I  suppose,  who  had  been  dried 
out  on  the  farms  and  were  going  to  other  States  looking  for  work  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes,  sir;  lots  of  them. 

The  Chairman.  Lots  of  them? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Quite  a  few  of  them. 

The  Chairman.  And  who  traveled  over  the  highways? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes. 


3612  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

The  Chairman.  Where  did  those  people  stop — in  these  camps? 

Mr.  McCrea,  Why,  they  usually  stopped  at  the  camps.  You 
mean  the  transient  camps,  when  they  were  operating? 

The  Chairman.  Yes. 

Mr.  McCrjea.  Why,  yes;  they  did.  They  came  in  family  groups 
and,  of  course,  the  transient  camps  put  them  in  apartments,  furnished 
them  with  their  own  apartment  and,  of  course,  with  good  food  and 
clothing,  and  the  wife  was  required  to  work  a  few  hours  each  day. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  meet  up  with  any  people  like  yourself, 
who  were  hitch-hiking? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Yes,  sir;  I  did — quite  a  few,  all  over  the  country. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  have  any  difficulty  in  securing  rides? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Why,  not  so  much.  That  is,  if  a  person  keeps  cleaned 
up  and  halfway  decent  in  appearance,  they  don't  have  much  trouble. 
Otherwise,  if  you  are  not  dressed  up,  it  is  pretty  hard,  that  is  if  you 
look  shabby. 

The  Chairman.  Where  did  you  learn  to  be  a  cook? 

Mr.  McCrea,  Why,  up  in  this  summer  camp,  the  first  summer. 

The  Chairman.  Are  you  a  pretty  good  cook? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Why,  just  as  a  second  cook,  just  an  assistant  to  the 
chef.     Then  I  have  done  short-order  work. 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  any  brothers  and  sisters  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  I  have  one  brother,  who  is  married.  I  have  one 
sister,  who  is  married.  My  brother  lives  up  at  Batavia,  N.  Y.,  and 
my  sister  lives  over  in  England. 

The  Chairman.  What  do  you  intend  to  do — remain  here  in  Wash- 
ington ? 

MUST  CONTINUE  MOVING 

Mr.  McCrea.  Why,  I  would  like  to  stay  here;  if  I  figured  I  could 
find  a  job  that  would  give  me  a  substantial  salary  to  live  on,  I 
would  be  willing  to  settle  down  and  stay;  otherwise  I  will  just  have 
to  keep  going  until  I  do  find  something  where  I  can  settle  down. 

The  Chairman.  In  other  words,  there  comes  a  time  with  you,  like 
with  other  American  citizens,  where  you  cannot  get  employment  at 
home,  why,  you  move ;  you  ^et  out  ?  _ 

Mr.  McCrea.  Wliy,  yes,  sir.  Of  course,  in  my  case,  it  was  a  little 
bit  different.  I  was  really  compelled  to  move,  on  account  of  my 
stepfather,  who  was  very  hard  to  get  along  with  and  we  were  quar- 
reling all  of  the  time,  so  I  just  left. 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  lived  long  enough,  Mr.  McCrea,  in  any 
one  State  to  be  eligible  for  relief  ? 

Mr.  McCrea.  Why,  just  Ohio,  when  I  was  in  Youngstown,  Ohio. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  apply  for  relief  there? 

Mr.  McCrea.  No  sir;  I  did  not. 

The  Chairman.  If  there  are  no  further  questions,  thank  you  very 
much,  Mr.  McCrea. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3613 

TESTIMONY  OF  MRS.  ROBERTA  C.  WILLIAMS,  STAFF  ASSOCIATE  OF 
THE  NATIONAL  TRAVELERS'  AID  ASSOCIATION 

Mr.  Curtis.  Mrs.  Williams,  if  you  will,  please  give  your  full  name 
to  the  reporter. 

Mrs.  Williams.  Roberta  C.  Williams. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  what  is  your  position  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  I  am  staif  associate  of  the  National  Travelers' 
Aid  Association. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  are  you  located  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  New  York  City  is  our  headquarters;  our  office 
is  there. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Mrs.  Williams,  we  have  just  received  your  state- 
ment. I  have  not  had  an  opportunity  to  read  it.  It  will  be  intro- 
duced into  the  record  at  this  point. 

(The  statement  and  a  supplement  are  as  follows :) 

STATEMENT  OF  ROBERTA  C.  WILLIAMS,  STAFF  ASSOCIATE,  NATIONAL 
TRAVELERS'  AID  ASSOCIATION 

I  uuderstaud  from  previous  hearings  and  your  interest  that  you  appreciate 
the  problems  of  migratory  workers  and  I  do  not  need  to  recall  to  the  com- 
mittee the  problems  that  confront  a  great  army  of  individuals,  uprooted  from 
their  homes  for  reasons  beyond  their  control.  Someone  has  recently  said 
that  we  cannot  argue  vs^ith  droughts,  floods,  hurricanes,  and  tanks.  Perhaps 
not,  but  we  have  been  greatly  concerned  in  the  last  few  months  about  problems 
arising  from  the  movement  of  people  on  defense  jobs.  It  is  my  particular  duty, 
in  connection  with  my  work,  to  visit  the  following  States :  Virginia,  North  Caro- 
lina, South  Carolina,  Florida,  Alabama,  Georgia,  Kentucky,  Tennessee,  and  Mis- 
sissippi. Naturally  I  have  seen  first-hand  problems  in  which  I  believe  your  com- 
mittee will  be  interested. 

ACUTE  PROBLEM   AT   CAMP   BLANDING 

I  hope  you  will  pardon  this  first-hand  information,  somewhat  personalized, 
telling  what  I  saw  near  Camp  Blanding.  On  November  16  we  received  an  emer- 
gency telephone  call  from  the  Travelers'  Aid  Society  in  Jacksonville,  Fla.,  ask- 
ing for  help,  and  on  Monday,  November  18,  we  arrivied  on  the  scene.  We  found 
located  in  the  wooded  area  across  from  Camp  Blanding  and  the  construc- 
tion company's  offices  a  migrant  group  estimated  to  be  3,000  in  number.  Men, 
youthful  boys,  and  entire  families,  inspired  with  the  hope  of  work  and  big 
money,  had  traveled  to  this  defense  activity  and  for  the  lack  of  any  possible 
living  facilities  had  taken  up  temporary  abode  in  the  wooded  area.  With  only 
trees  for  protection,  some  slept  in  ramshackled  cars,  others  in  shacks  of  pine 
bows  and  still  a  greater  number  in  the  open  with  only  a  blanket  to  protect 
them  from  the  22°  weather.  With  no  sanitation  facilities  they  moved  from 
one  section  to  the  other  as  conditions  became  unbearable.  Water  was  carried 
from  a  lake  one-half  mile  distant.  Smoldering  fires,  a  dreaded  hazard,  served 
for  out-of-door  cooking  pui'poses  for  those  fortunate  enough  to  have  food  to 
cook. 

WOEK  PEOJECTS  ADMINISTRATION  DROPPED  DESTITUTE  MAN 

These  migratory  workers  were  headlined  in  the  newspapers  "migrants  go  where- 
ever  jobs  are,  and  suffer  everywhere."  One  man  from  Georgia,  with  a  thick,  hoarse 
voice  who  hitchhiked  his  way  from  the  camp  to  Jacksonville,  asked  travelers' 
aid  to  advance  meals  and  lodging  for  a  week  and  transportation  to  and  from  the 
camp  47  miles  away.  He  had  left  his  elderly  mother  and  father  in  Georgia  in  dire 
circumstances.  They  were  counting  upon  him  to  work  and  bring  home  money. 
Their  only  income  for  months  had  been  from  his  scant  W.  P.  A.  earnings,  and  he 


3Q14  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

had  been  cut  off  from  this  by  routine  months  ago  and  had  nothing  more.  Ill  and 
discouraged,  he  wondered  how  he  could  hold  out  and  work  10  days  before  he  would 
receive  his  pay.  Many  of  these  migratory  workers  had  been  employed  by  the  con- 
struction company  but  could  not  receive  pay  for  10  days.  In  urgent  need  of  funds 
for  food,  they  worked  3  days,  gave  up  their  job,  and  received  their  pay,  then  stood 
in  line  again  to  be  rehired.  One  of  the  men  remarked,  "If  one  believes  these  people 
do  not  want  work,  they  should  see  the  lines  out  from  the  construction  company's 
employment  oflSce."  Our  Georgia  man  was  an  excellent  example,  for  he  had  stood 
in  a  line  of  800  white  and  colored  men  for  3  days  before  he  reached  the  employ- 
ment window;  had  slept  out  4  nights,  and  was  now  almost  too  hungry  and  ex- 
hausted to  continue  unless  someone  came  to  his  aid.  The  situation  surrounding 
Camp  Blanding  was  more  acute  than  that  in  some  other  communities.  I  have 
seen  the  situation  in  Fayetteville,  N.  C,  and  Norfolk,  Va.  Another  of  our  staff 
associates  has  witnessed  the  problems  in  Charleston,  S.  C,  and  we  have  some  first- 
hand information  on  conditions  in  Charlestown,  Ind. 

TWO  TYPES  OF  WORKE3JS  ON  MARCH 

The  workers  on  the  march  who  need  to  be  considered  fall  into  two  main  groups, 
civilian  employees  and  military  and  naval  personnel.  The  civilian  employees  com- 
prise two  groups  which  need  to  be  separately  considered  and  planned  for. 

First,  those  permanently  employed  in  defense  industries  and  navy  yards.  This 
group  may  be  expected  to  continue  in  employment  for  the  "duration,"  and  the 
community  problem  is  that  of  bringing  them  in  touch  with  adequate  community 
facilities  similar  to  those  used  and  required  by  residents,  such  as  adequate  hous- 
ing, employment,  educational,  recreational,  and  health  resources. 

Second,  is  the  group  employed  in  emergency  construction  of  defense  plants  or 
army  camps.  This  group  stays  in  a  community  a  relatively  short  period  of  time. 
They  come  in,  complete  the  construction,  usually  on  a  rush  program,  and  then  are 
discharged. 

The  needs  of  these  people  while  they  are  in  the  community  are  similar  to  those 
of  the  other  group,  but  the  problem  faced  by  the  community  in  providing  tem- 
porary housing  and  related  facilities  for  large  numbers  is  one  that  requires  par- 
ticular thought.  Likewise,  the  responsibility  for  planning  for  the  demobilization 
of  those  needing  to  leave  a  community  after  a  short  period  of  residence  and,  when 
a  defense  job  is  completed,  their  subsequent  employment  and  their  transportation 
to  the  next  place  of  employment  should  be  anticipated  immediately  and  appro- 
priate machinery  devised  to  meet  this  need.  For  example,  what  will  become  of  the 
16,000  workers  who  are  employed  in  constructing  a  smokeless-powder  plant  in 
Charlestown,  Ind.,  when  the  construction  job  is  finished  on  December  15?  Inci- 
dentally, when  the  plant  is  completed,  from  9,000  to  14,000  workers  suitable  to 
meet  the  plant's  requirements  will  be  coming  in  to  constitute  the  operating  force. 
This  means  that  there  will  be  16,000  who  must  be  moved  to  another  new  com- 
munity and  who  will  be  rapidly  replaced  at  the  rate  of  14,000  to  be  permanently 
located  and  employed. 

We  recognize  the  Tolan  committee's  primary  interest  in  the  movement  of  mi- 
gratory workers,  but  closely  related  is  the  movement  of  all  kinds  of  people  in  this 
defense.  When  demobilization  comes,  we  will  have  nonresidency  greater  than 
ever  before.  I  would  like  to  call  the  committee's  attention  to  the  additional  group 
of  those  people  now  moving  to  get  jobs  in  defense  industries  and  navy  yards. 

It  is  recognized  that  there  is  an  immediate  demand  for  skilled  and  unskilled 
workers,  without  necessai-y  time  for  preparation  for  proper  planning.  Real  and 
perplexing  problems  are  bound  to  emerge  and  others  continue  on.  People  hear  of 
jobs,  but  there  is  no  available  information  regarding  the  number  of  workers 
needed  and  the  particular  skills  required.  Therefore,  many  go  spurred  by  the 
hope  of  employment  and  encouraged  by  newspai)er  accounts  and  radio  appeals  for 
labor.  Many  of  tliem  travel  in  old  wornout  cars,  others  hitchhike  and  become 
stranded  en  route.  Still  others  are  faced  with  problems  when  there  is  a  delay  in 
making  application  for  employment. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3615 

MANY  APPLICANTS  REJECTED 

Then  there  is  a  group  of  those  applying  who  are  necessarily  rejected.  For 
example,  the  commandant  in  charge  of  civilian  employment  at  the  Charleston 
Navy  Yard  estimated  that  each  day  five  or  six  out-of-town  persons  are  rejected 
at  the  employment  office.  Even  if  eligible  for  employment,  there  is  a  consid- 
erable group  that  fail  to  pass  the  rigid  physical  examination.  If  these  people 
are  from  another  city  a  problem  is  created  for  them  and  for  the  community 
particularly  because  many  of  these  communities  are  small  and  aside  from  the 
defense  activities  they  offer  no  other  opportunity  for  exployment. 

With  regard  to  persons  employed  in  emergency  construction  jobs,  the  experi- 
ence is  likely  to  be  repeated  as  soon  as  the  rush  job  is  ended.  So  far  we 
have  observed  no  planned  program  for  demobilization  and  transferring  con- 
struction groups  from  one  project  which  is  ended  in  a  locality  to  a  new  project 
in  another  section  of  the  country. 

In  many  cases  the  communities  in  which  these  defense  activities  are  being 
set  up  are  small  and  not  equipped,  and  are  unorganized  from  the  standpoint 
of  social  services;  they  have  not  been  able  to  anticipate  and  plan  for  the 
problems  which  automatically  arise  in  a  community  with  this  influx  and 
development.  Moreover,  in  many  of  these  communities  there  are  no  financial 
resources  available  locally  for  meeting  problems  which  would  be  equal  in 
extent  to  those  of  a  much  larger  city. 

EECRTJIT   REJECTIONS   ADD    TO   PROBLEMS 

Those  grouped  under  military  personnel  may  not  be  so  directly  of  interest 
to  this  committee  but  in  considering  the  impact  of  moving  people  related  to 
the  defense  program  they  are  a  part  of  the  picture.  Tliey  are  a  problem  in 
these  ways: 

Young  boys  coming  in  to  enlist  are  often  not  eligible  and  have  to  wait  for 
examinations  and  arrangements.  For  instance,  a  young  lad  from  a  nearby 
State,  turned  down  for  enlistment  because  of  dental  condition,  came  to  Atlanta 
to  have  this  condition  corrected.  This  was  done  but  he  was  finally  rejected 
because  of  poor  eyesight. 

A  report  that  colored  enlistments  would  be  centralized  in  Chicago  brought 
to  the  Travelers  Aid  Society  a  large  number  of  colored  boys  rejected  for 
enlistment  because  of  physical  disability  or  for  the  reason  that  they  were 
under  age. 

Six  cases  of  Army  recruits  in  need  of  meals  and  lodging,  who  had  become 
stranded  because  of  wrong  schedules,  were  reported  in  one  day  by  one  of  our 
societies. 

Then  there  is  a  real  civilian  problem  related  to  military  personnel.  Families, 
relatives,  and  friends  of  the  men  at  camps  are  moving  into  communities  con- 
tiguous to  camps.  They  need  direction,  information,  and  general  assistance 
when  unanticipated  problems  arise. 

For  example,  one  Sunday  in  November  when  there  were  only  20,000  men  at 
Camp  Dix,  visitors  arrived  there  in  35,000  automobiles  and  this  was,  of  course, 
before  the  induction  of  the  selective  service  group. 

This  brings  out  again  the  necessity  of  adequate  housing,  health,  educational 
and  recreational  facilities,  and  also  emphasizes  a  need  for  some  central  clear- 
ing place  where  information  and  general  assistance  can  be  given  when  un- 
foreseen problems  arise  so  that  a  chronic  condition  does  not  continue  in  a 
community. 

During  the  last  war  the  problems  of  civilians  coming  in  to  be  near  their 
men  at  camps  constituted  a  major  problem  which  required  planning.  The 
increase  in  transportation  facilities  during  the  past  23  years,  plus  the  greater 
willingness  of  people  to  travel  and  the  increased  mobility  of  our  population, 
indicate  that  this  problem  will  assume  much  greater  proportions  now. 

EMERGENCIES   SHOULD   BE   ANTICIPATED 

Insofar  as  it  is  possible  to  anticipate  problems  and  to  know  from  experience 
what  may  be  expected  to  occur  it  is  important  for  appropriate  plans  to  be  made 


3616 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


in  advance  to  meet  such  emergencies.  Some  of  the  acutely  distressing  situa- 
tions that  we  have  observed  in  recent  weeks  might  easily  have  been  anticipated 
and  in  this  manner  would  have  reduced  suffering  to  the  people,  the  cost  in 
clearing  up  the  situation  and  health  menace  to  the  community.  The  responsi- 
bility for  so  planning  would  seem  to  rest  upon  all  of  us,  both  public  officials 
and  public  agencies,  private  social  agencies,  and  citizens  themselves. 

The  defense  program  is  for  the  Nation  as  a  whole,  and,  therefore,  it  em- 
braces all  people  everywhere  within  the  Nation ;  all  individuals,  all  institutions, 
and  all  communities.  ^  A  small  community  that  just  happens  by  chance  to  bear 
the  brunt  of  expansion  in  the  locality  should  be  helped  by  the  Nation  as  a 
whole  in  meeting  the  needs  that  arise  because  of  a  defense  program  for  the 
Nation  as  a  whole. 

I  am  sure  that  I  do  not  need  to  emphasize  to  your  committee  the  acute- 
ness  of  problems  arising  because  of  a  shifting  population.  If  we  could  accept 
responsibility  for  not  being  taken  by  surprise,  for  facing  the  inevitable  nature 
of  certain  problems  and  profit  by  past  experiences,  and  use  the  many  avail- 
able resources,  it  would  indeed  be  splendid.  To  this  end,  may  I  offer  these 
recommendations:  ^,    .        ^.  . 

(1)  That  the  Employment  Service,  Federal,  and  State,  so  gear  their  activi- 
ties that  there  will  be  a  routing  of  employees  to  places  where  needed  and  a 
reduction  of  aimless  job  seeking,  including  plans  for  demobilization  and  trans- 
ferral  of  workers  from  one  job  to  another. 

(2)  That  the  United  States  Public  Health  Service  with  the  State  and  local 
public  health  services  concern  itself  with  the  protection  of  community  sani- 
tation and  health  and  make  provision  for  health  services  to  ill  persons  regard- 
less of  settlement. 

(3)  That  since  the  national  aspects  of  these  problems  require  that  new 
communities  should  have  assistance  from  national  agencies,  both  public  and 
private,  including  the  Federal  Government,  a  community  program  of  social 
service  be  set  up  to  meet  the  specific  problems  and  needs  arising.  Older  com- 
munities in  which  expansion  becomes  necessary  will  need  similar  help. 

(4)  That  since  present  restrictions  and  inconsistencies  of  settlement  laws 
will  work  untold  hardships  upon  these  workers  when  the  defense  program  is 
ended,  attention  be  drawn  to  the  matter  of  settlement  laws  possibly  waiving 
all  settlement  requirements  throughout  the  country. 


NATIONAL  TRAVELERS  AID  ASSOCIATION   (SUPPLEMENTAL) 

Summary  of  Replies  Received  to  Questionnaire  on  Defense  Activities 

As  reported  by  Travelers  Aid  Societies  in  70  communities  in  response  to  a  ques- 
tionnaire from  the  National  Travelers  Aid  Association  in  October  1940 

We  have  already  received  replies  from  70  Travelers'  Aid  Societies  to  the  ques- 
tionnaire on  defense  activities  which  went  to  societies  in  October.  According 
to  the  information  contained  in  these  answers,  societies  in  the  following  cities 
will  be  concerned  with  four  phases  of  defense — Army,  Navy,  air,  and  indus- 
trial activities :  Atlanta,  Boston,  Bridgeport,  Chicago,  Hartford,  Miami,  Oakland, 
Philadelphia,  Roanoke,  Seattle,  Tacoma,  Toledo,  and  Washington,  D.  C. 

The  following  cities  report  large  Army,  air,  and  industrial,  but  no  Navy 
activities:  Chattanooga,  Cincinnati,  Columbus,  Houston,  Kansas  City,  Omaha, 
Schenectady,  and  Springfield,  Mass. 

The  following  cities,  in  addition,  report  large  industrial  development:  Balti- 
more, Dallas,  Indianapolis,  Long  Beach,  Memphis,  Nashville,  New  Orleans, 
Pittsburgh,  and  Wilmington,  Del. 

There  will  be  large  Army  centers  at  Fort  Dix,  N.  J.,  Fort  Bragg,  N.  C,  Camp 
Blanding,  Fla.,  and  Fort  Ord,  Calif.  In  none  of  these  places  is  there  an 
organized  travelers'  aid  society. 

To  date,  Travelers'  Aid  has  been  called  in  for  advice  at  Fort  Dix  and  Camp 
Blanding  and  a  field  visit  has  been  made  to  Fort  Bragg. 

From  the  70  returned  questionnaires  the  enclosed  list  of  problems  emerges. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3617 

Examples   of   Special   Problems   Abising   in    Communities   as   a    Result   of 
Population  Movt:ment  Related  to  Defense  Activities 


1.  Inadequacy  of  housing  facilities : 
(a)  For  civilian  workers. 

(6)  For  single  men  and  women  who  desire  rooms. 

(c)  For  single  men  and  young  married  couples  who  desire  light-housekeeping 
apartments.  ^    ^ 

(d)  Especially  for  colored. 

(e)  For  young  girls.  "The  Young  Women's  Christian  Association  is  filled 
and  the  transient  committee  is  being  revived  to  consider  the  problem  " 

(/)  For  officers'  families.     "Rents  too  high  for  allowance  of  Army  personnel  " 
(g)  For  Army  and  Navy  families  in  lower-income  groups   (in  Seattle)   who 
are  not  permitted  to  accompany  men  to  Alaska. 

2.  Need  for— 

(a)   "One  night's  lodging  before  going  out  to  enroll  in  aviation  school" 

(6)  More  information  regarding  finding  rooms,  etc.,  because  of  limited  hous- 
ing facilities. 

(c)  Workers'  finding  quarters  in  nearby  communities  because  of  housing 
shortage. 

id)  Officers'  finding  housing  in  cities  75  and  90  miles  distant  from  fort,  driv- 
ing round-trip  daily. 

"Government  housing  units  being  built  to  accommodate  additional  workers 
but  do  not  keep  abreast  of  the  demands."  * 

"Curtiss-Wright  project  is  developing  its  own  housing  plans." 

"The  real-estate  board  is  making  a  housing  survey." 

" bas  vacancies  of  about  4  percent,  and  workers  finding  quarters  in 

nearby  communities.     City  is  on  the  alert  to  detect  unfair  rentals." 

"Rents  are  high  and  land  has  been  bought  up  by  speculators  at  such  a  high 
price  that  the  Government  cannot  make  any  headway  with  Government 
housing." 

health 

3.  Inadequacy  of  health  facilities. 

2.  No  health  facilities  for  nonresidents  except  for  emergency  cases. 

3.  No  provision  made  for  nonresidents  unable  to  pay  for  medical  care. 

SCHOOLS    AND   RECREATION 

1.  Inadequacy  of  school  facilities. 

2.  Requests  received  from  Army  officers'  wives  regarding  schools  and  cul- 
tural opportunities. 

3.  "We  have  had  several  boys  who  have  expended  from  $300  to  $500  to  come 

to  and  enroll  in  a  'phony'  school  to  prepare  for  work  in  the  defense 

industries.  Apparently  a  whole  series  of  rackets  involving  schools,  used  auto- 
mobiles, and  hotels  is  developing,  with  outposts  in  the  eastern  and  middle  western 
cities." 

SERVICES   RELATED   TO   ENLISTMENTS,    ENROLLMENTS,    AND   DEFENSE    EMPLOYMENT 

1.  Skilled  workers  hitchhiking  in  because  of  reported  available  jobs.  For 
example,  a  man  who  had  passed  his  civil-service  examination  and  had  been 
ordered  to  report  to  a  certain  navy  yard  immediately  was  unable  to  raise 
transportation  money.  He  started  hitchhiking  but  found  he  could  not  reach 
his  destination  in  time.  Travelers'  Aid  Society  assisted  him  in  raising  the  money 
from  his  own  resources. 

2.  Transportation  home  for  those  unable  to  find  employment  or  who  fail  the 
physical  examination  for  employment.  For  example,  a  boy  from  a  nearby  State 
turned  down  for  enlistment  because  of  a  dental  condition  came  to  Atlanta  to 
have  this  condition  corrected.  This  was  done  but  he  was  finally  rejected 
because  of  poor  eyesight. 


3618  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

3.  Requests  for  help  in  transferring  Army  and  Navy  families  en  route  through 
Chicago. 

4.  Cooperation  with  the  Civil  Aeronautics  Authority  in  arranging  trans- 
portation of  Army  and  Navy  families  to  Alaska  (Seattle  Travelers'  Aid  Society). 

5.  Boys  coming  to  enlist  often  are  not  eligible  or  have  to  wait  for  examina- 
tion and  arrangements.  One  travelers'  aid  society  has  assumed  care  of  boys 
under  21  while  local  recruiting  officer  sends  papers  to  parents  for  signature. 

A  report  that  colored  enlistments  would  be  centralized  in  Chicago  brought  to 
the  travelers  aid  society  a  number  of  colored  boys,  rejected  for  enlistment 
because  of  physical  disability  or  age. 

6.  Four  men  referred  to  travelers  aid  society  by  the  Navy  recruiting  office 
had  either  spent  the  money  allotted  to  them  for  transportation  and  food  while 
on  leave,  or  had  lost  their  tickets  or  money,  or  had  had  their  possessions 
stolen. 

Temporary  jobs  for  persons  awaiting  jobs  in  defense  industries. 

"Tiding  over"  until  the  first  pay  check. 

Eleven  families  in  1  day  who  had  come  from  the  flooded  areas  of  Virginia  to 
seek  work  in  the  powder  plant  near  Roanoke  were  without  work  and  were 
stranded  in  Roanoke. 

7.  Six  cases  of  Army  recruits  in  need  of  meals  and  lodging  who  had  become 
stranded  either  because  of  wrong  schedules  (which  were  not  their  fault)  or 
their  money  or  tickets  were  lost  or  stolen. 

(The  naval  office  has  not  funds  or  facilities  to  help  men  even  when  the  cir- 
cumstances are  beyond  the  men's  control.  The  Army  has  certain  facilities 
which  can  be  used  in  cases  like  these. ) 

8.  Young  soldiers  from  the  air  base  stranded  on  Saturday  nights. 

SERVICES   REIATED    TO   FAMILIES   OR   FRIENDS 

1.  A  young  woman  coming  to  visit  her  sweetheart  at  the  fort.  Service 
included  verifying  fact  that  he  was  there,  obtaining  information  as  to  where 
and  when  they  could  meet,  and  securing  bus  schedule  to  fort. 

2.  The  wife  of  a  private,  stranded  en  route  to  her  husband  (against  Army 
regulations)  at  the  nearby  fort. 

3.  Within  1  week  three  women  asked  for  help,  admitting  that  they  had 
followed  the  troops  into  town. 

4.  Mr.  D.,  an  experienced  machinist,  38,  and  his  wife,  29,  with  five  children 
(1  to  7  years)  immigrated  to  Hartford  due  to  Mr.  D.'s  suspension  of  30  days 
from  work  (defense  work  in  another  State)  because  he  had  stayed  home  from 
work  1  week  to  care  for  his  sick  wife.  They  arrived  with  two  flat  tires  and  a 
few  cents  and  were  directed  to  a  tourist  camp  on  the  outskirts  of  town.  They 
were  helped  with  food  by  friendly  neighbors.  The  wife's  health  became  worse. 
Mr.  D.  went  to  town  and  was  referred  to  the  travelers'  aid  society  by  a  local 
church.  The  case  was  referred  to  a  social  worker  in  the  community  where  they 
were  domiciled,  with  the  request  for  immediate  medical  care.  The  man  was 
given  the  necessary  information  about  employment,  localities,  etc.,  and  he  left 
travelers'  aid  with  a  sense  of  relief  and  courage.  The  wife  was  sent  to  a 
hospital.  Two  weeks  later  Mr.  D.  telephoned  and  said  he  had  a  good  job,  his 
wife  had  returned  from  the  hospital,  and  his  wife's  mother  had  come  to  stay 
until  the  wife  was  well  enough  to  care  for  the  family.  "Everything  is  going 
well  and  I  sure  do  thank  travelers'  aid,"  was  the  happy  conclusion. 

5.  Increase  in  requests  for  information,  direction,  and  referral  services. 
Information  for  soldiers  on  furlough. 

Information  in  regard  to  restaurants. 
Information  regarding  cashing  checks. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MRS.  ROBERTA  C.  WILLIAMS— Resumed 

Mr.  Curtis.  The  committee  would  be  pleased  if  you  would  just 
proceed  in  your  own  way  to  discuss  the  matter. 

Mrs.  Williams,  for  the  record,  I  want  to  ask  a  few  questions  con- 
cerning Camp  Blanding.    Just  where  is  it  located  ? 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3619 

Mrs.  Williams.  It  is  located  southwest  of  Jacksonville,  Fla.,  47 
miles  distant.    It  is  near  two  towns,  Stark  and  Palatka. 

Mr.  CuKTis.  How  large  are  those  towns? 

Mrs.  Williams.  Stark  is  a  town  of  1,50;)  population,  and  the 
population  of  Palatka  is  estimated  at  2,500. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  many  jobs  were  available  at  Camp  Blanding? 

Mrs.  AViLLiAMS.  There  were  19,400  employed,  and  they  still  needed 
more  workers. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Approximately,  how  many  people  could  be  employed 
at  Camp  Blanding? 

Mrs.  Williams.  I  do  not  have  that  number. 

Mr.   Curtis.  How  many  people  arrived  there  seeking  jobs? 

CAMP   builders   live  IN   WOODS 

Mrs.  Williams.  There  were  3,000  estimated  to  be  living  there 
in  the  woods. 

Mr.  Curtis.  They  would  not  all  get  jobs,  would  they? 

Mrs.  Williams.  'Most  of  them  were  employed.  I  would  say  that 
three-fourths  of  them  had  received  employment. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Are  they  confronted  with  the  problem  of  having 
more  people  there  than  can  be  taken  care  of  ? 

Mrs.  WiLLix\MS.  Yes.  sir.  Every  week  new  people  are  coming  in 
taking  the  place  of  others  who  failed  during  the  time  they  were 
there  to  get  jobs;  so  there  was  a  certain  change  in  the  population 
of  migrants  living  there  in  the  woods  during  the  time  they  were 
waiting  for  work. 

Mr.  Curtis.  This  suggestion  has  been  made  in  regard  to  the  de- 
fense construction  program,  that  the  employment  of  persons  ex- 
cept, perhaps,  those  who  reside  within  a  reasonable  distance  of  the 
construction  work,  be  placed  in  the  hands  of  the  United  States  Em- 
ployment Service,  and  that  it  be  so  handled  that  the  worker  w^ould 
make  application  for  work  at  his  home,  or  where  he  lives,  and  then 
seek  clearance  through  the  Employment  Service.  He  would  then 
proceed  to  the  point  where  he  could  be  put  to  work.  It  would  not  be 
a  question  of  prohibiting  people  from  traveling  while  seeking  work, 
but  it  would  merely  change  the  place  where  they  applied  for  jobs 
from  the  point  of  construction  to  the  place  where  they  lived.  The 
information  as  to  the  work  available  would  be  spread  tliroughout  the 
length  and  breadth  of _  the  country,  and  if  they  wanted  employment 
in  the  defense  industries,  they  would  be  advised  that  their  applica- 
tions must  be  put  in  where  they  reside,  and  not  where  the  job  is 
located.  Now,  from  your  experience  with  the  Travelers'  Aid  Society, 
would  you  approve  such  a  general  id^ea  as  that  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  I  think  that  it  would  work.  If  some  mechanical 
means  could  be  devised  by  which  that  information  could  be  quickly 
routed  to  the  employment  services,  with  the  people  directed  to  apply 
in  their  own  localities,  and  if  they  would  give  the  employment 
agencies  information  as  to  the  number  of  persons  available,  and  the 
particular  skills  available,  these  agencies  would  know  where  to 
direct  them  to  go,  and  I  think  that  would  help  a  great  deal. 


260370 — 41 — pt.  0- 


3Q20  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Curtis.  Were  there  any  obvious  errors  of  management  on 
the  part  of  the  contractor  or  of  the  Government  itself  in  the  Camp 
Blanding  situation? 

BLANDING  WORKERS  COMMUTE  4  7  MILES 

Mrs.  Williams.  The  construction  company  had  19,400  persons  em- 
ployed, and  they  had  barracks  at  the  camp  site  for  only  2,000.  Many 
of  them  were  going  back  and  forth  to  Jacksonville,  or  any  place  where 
they  could  get  housing,  but  certainly  the  housing  facilities  did  not 
exist  on  the  site  of  Camp  Blanding  for  more  than  2,000  employees. 
They  needed  more  than  19,000.  One  day  they  stated  that  they  had 
almost  the  peak  of  employment,  because  they  were  so  concerned  about 
this  problem  that  they  temporarily  closed  the  employment  office. 
However,  I  understand  that  it  was  reopened. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Wliere  did  the  contractor  expect  these  people  to  live? 

Mrs.  Williams.  I  am  sure  I  cannot  answer  that.  There  were  a  few 
housekeeping  rooms  available  in  Jacksonville,  but  that  was  47  miles 
away,  and  the  matter  of  transportation  was  involved.  They  did  not 
seem  to  have  had  any  plan  when  they  started,  and  there  was  a  traffic 
hazard  in  going  to  and  from  the  camp. 

Mr.  Curtis.  This  is  in  a  more  or  less  remote  area  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Is  there  a  highway  leading  to  it? 

Mrs.  Williams.  Yes,  sir ;  there  is  a  paved  highway,  but  there  is  only 
one  lane  coming  and  one  going. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Wliat  kind  of  camp  is  this? 

Mrs.  Williams.  It  is  a  camp  that  they  are  constructing  for  the  train- 
ing of  soldiers.  Those  people  are  coming  in.  One  unit  is  the  Forty- 
third  Division,  and  I  think  the  other  is  the  Twenty-first  Division. 

would  abolish  settle]mext  laws 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  am  interested  in  the  recommendations  that  you  have- 
made.  We  have  had  two  schools  of  thought  represented  in  the  sugges- 
tions that  have  been  made  to  this  committee  on  the  subject  of  settlement 
laws.  One  group  believes  in  uniform  State  settlement  laws,  while- 
the  other  would  abolish  settlement  laws  altogether.  Do  you  favor  the- 
abolition  of  settlement  laws? 

Mrs.  Williams.  Yes.  sir;  I  think  they  should  be  abolished  for  the- 
purposes  of  relief,  because  I  think  that  if  a  person  who  arrives  in  a 
community  is  in  need,  something  should  be  done  about  it.  Wlien  you 
have  to  gear  yourself  up  through  two  or  three  States,  where  you  may 
have  resources  or  residence,  the  situation  is  made  difficult.  In  the 
long  run,  except  in  one  or  two  outstanding  States,  where  they  have  a 
terrific  increase  in  the  number  of  transients,  there  would  be  no  dif- 
ference, because  most  of  them  have  people  going  out  as  well  as  people- 
coming  in. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  think  that  a  migrant  coming  into  the  State  of  Cali- 
fornia should  not  be  denied  relief  in  California  because  he  has  not- 
established  residence  there? 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3621 

Mrs.  Williams.  Generally  speaking,  I  think  so,  but  I  do  not  know 
what  California  would  think  about  it,  because  I  understand  they  have 
a  greater  number  of  migrants  than  any  other  State. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  feel,  however,  that  it  would  make  the  handling 
of  relief  easier? 

Mrs.  Williams.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  do  you  think  about  the  long-time  effect  of  that  ? 
Do  you  think  it  would  increase  the  wanderings  of  destitute  people, 
or  not  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  see  why  it  would. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  do  not  adhere  to  the  theory  that  someone  who 
is  faced  with  misfortune  or  has  lost  his  job  or  home  would  find  it 
better  to  stay  where  he  is  or  where  he  is  known  and  has  been  for 
a  long  time  proving  his  worthiness  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  I  think  that  depends  entirely  on  how  the  person 
himself  feels.  Each  individual  can  better  tell  how  he  feels  about 
those  circumstances  than  someone  else. 

Mr.  Curtis.  If  all  settlement  laws  were  abolished,  do  you  think 
that  some  States  would  have  a  tremendous  influx  of  people  that  could 
never  be  assimilated  because  of  climatic  conditions  or  the  like? 
^  Mrs.  Williams.  I  do  not  think  so,  except,  perhaps,  in  the  cases  of 
California  and  Florida.  They  might  have  a  larger  number  than  they 
would  know  what  to  do  with.    However,  they  have  them  anyway. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Let  us  consider  that  for  a  moment :  Let  us  take  the  case 
of  an  individual  who  is  not  quite  destitute  but  who  has  been  working 
around  and  is  just  about  getting  along.  Now,  such  a  person  knows 
that  under  the  present  system  if  he  ventures  away  from  home  and 
meets  with  misfortune,  he  is  homeless  and  may  not  secure  aid ;  and  he 
may  hang  on  to  what  he  has,  even  though  it  is  not  very  good  or  very 
profitable.  That  is  because  he  would  have  a  fear  that  he  would  be 
in  difficulty  thousands  of  miles  from  home.  He  will  bear  in  mind  that 
he  will  be  destitute  and  not  eligible  for  aid.  Now,  if  you  were  to  re- 
move that  situation  or  that  danger  many  people  might  go  to  some 
place  in  the  South,  where  they  have  warm  weather  and  sunshine, 
where  they  might  be  able  to  dig  up  a  few  days  or  a  few  weeks  work 
during  cold  weather  in  the  North.  They  would  have  no  fear  that 
they  would  be  unable  to  qualify  for  aid  the  same  as  any  individual  who 
has  lived  there  for  20  years.  It  seems  to  me  that  would  encourage 
them  to  start  out. 

Mrs.  Williams.  I  do  not  believe  it  would  cause  more  to  do  that 
than  are  doing  it  at  the  present  time.  They  see  the  hardships,  dan- 
gers, and  insecurity,  and  they  would  not  go  if  they  had  no  reason 
to  believe  that  their  prospects  would  be  better  at  the  end  of  the  journey. 
Wlien  they  arrive  in  a  community  they  might  be  helped  with  what 
resources  "they  have  themselves.  They  go  with  the  hope  of  getting 
work,  and  they  may  get  temporary  work,  and  with  the  resources  they 
have  on  hand,  some  plan  might  be  worked  out  whereby  they  may  do 
better. 

NECESSITY    FORCES    MIGRATION 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  am  not  inclined  to  think  harshly  of  these  people,  but 
I  want  to  go  into  this  matter  thoroughly.    I  share  the  view  that  the 


3522  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

chairman  has  so  frequently  expressed,  that  people  move  on  because 
they  have  to  move,  or  because  necessity  forces  them.  That  is  true,  but 
I  do  not  think  we  should  lose  sight  of  the  fact  tliat  many  of  these 
people,  when  they  move  on,  meet  with  more  hunger  and  more  abuse 
and  more  ill  health  than  if  they  had  remained  where  they  were. 
Once  they  become  migrants,  they  suffer  more  than  they  would  if  they 
were  back  home  where  they  have  friends,  neighbors,  church  connec- 
tions, and  other  things  that  hold  people  together  in  a  community. 
I  do  not  think  it  would  be  a  wise  thing  to  encourage  people  to  break 
away  from  those  home  conditions. 

Mrs.  Williams.  Where  they  would  be  going  into  a  State  or  com- 
munity, they  would  not  necessarily  be  going  to  secure  some  kind  of 
help  that  they  could  get  in  their  own  community.  They  might  be 
going  in  the  hope  of  securing  employment,  or  improved  employment, 
or  some  other  related  resource  that  would  help  them.  I  do  not  think 
they  would  go  because  they  would  be  eligible  in  other  States  for 
benefits. 

The  Chairman.  Mrs.  Williams,  your  statement  has  been  made  a 
part  of  the  record.    Do  you  want  to  offer  that  map  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  This  map  shows  the  Army,  Navy,  air,  and  indus- 
trial locations,  or  the  major  ones.  This  information  has  come 
through  the  visits  of  our  society  and  70  other  travel-aid  societies 
located  in  these  defense  areas. 

The  Chairman.  It  may  be  marked  as  an  exhibit  and  filed  with  the 
committee. 

(The  map  referred  to  was  duly  marked  and  filed  with  the  com- 
mittee.) 

The  Chairman.  Mrs.  Williams,  I  think  your  recommendations  are 
very  interesting,  and  I  want  to  say  to  you  that  you  have  submitted 
a  very  fine  statement.  Now,  it  makes  very  little  difference  what  pre- 
conceived notions  we  have  about  migration  in  the  United  States;  it 
has  always  been  and  always  will  be  present. 

Mrs.  Williams,  Absolutely ;  yes,  sir. 

SELF-PRESERVATION  BIG  FACTOR 

The  Chairinian.  What  I  am  concerned  with  are  the  good  Amer- 
ican citizens  who  have  to  leave  their  farms  and  their  home  status  on 
account  of  circumstances  over  which  they  have  no  control.  I  know 
it  is  nice  to  have  church  connections  and  friends,  but  there  comes  a 
time  in  their  lives  when  the  law  of  self-preservation  must  prevail 
and  they  must  leave.  For  instance,  the  reduction  of  the  W.  P.  A. 
appropriation  at  the  last  session  caused  800,000  people  to  be  laid  off. 
Now,  take  a  man  like  that.  Of  course,  he  would  like  to  stay  at  home ; 
he  would  like  to  remain  in  his  home  city,  but  he  has  no  job,  and 
cannot  get  relief.  "Wliat  else  can  he  do  but  leave?  I  do  not  know 
what  recommendation  the  committee  will  make,  but  we  certainly 
could  improve  the  condition  now  existing.     It  could  not  be  worse. 

Mrs.  Williams.  That  is  true. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3623 

The  Chaieman.  There  are  millions  of  homeless  people  who  are 
citizens  of  the  United  States  under  the  Constitution.  They  run  up 
against  a  lot  of  barriers  whenever  they  attempt  to  cross  State  lines. 
There  should  be  at  the  border  or  at  some  place  in  the  States  a  point 
at  which  these  migrating  American  citizens  can  get  some  real  in- 
formation. They  are  not  getting  it  now.  Down  South  there  are 
private  employment  agencies  that  promise  them  jobs  in  the  State. 
In  some  States,  as  in  Arizona  and  California,  they  have  elaborate 
offices,  with  fine  officers  in  charge,  for  the  inspection  of  fruit  pests 
that  are  not  permitted  to  cross  the  State  lines.  I  think  we  should 
address  ourselves  to  that  problem  of  providing  reliable  information 
to  these  people. 

Mr.  Curtis.  At  what  points  would  you  give  the  information. 

Mrs.  Williams.  I  think  when  people  move  around  looking  for  jobs, 
and  so  forth,  this  information  should  be  given  through  the  employ- 
ment services  in  the  communities,  through  publicity,  and  advising 
people  where  to  go  if  they  are  out  of  work.  It  should  be  done  at  the 
beginning,  before  they  leave  their  communities. 

Mr.  Curtis.  If  it  is  at  the  border  of  the  State,  and  is  discouraging 
information,  it  would  mean  that  some  other  State  would  get  the 
migrants. 

Mrs.  Williams.  They  should  be  given  the  information  at  the 
beginning  of  the  journey. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  connection  with  this  chart  you  have  there,  does 
it  show  the  location  of  Army  posts  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  The  location  of  the  Army  posts  is  shown  in  red; 
the  location  of  the  Navy  posts  is  shown  in  blue;  the  green  indicates 
the  location  of  the  air  bases,  and  the  orange  indicates  the  location  of 
industrial  plants,  like  smokeless  powder  plants,  and  so  forth.^ 

The  Chairman.  If  there  is  nothing  further,  we  thank  you  very 
much  for  your  statement. 

TESTIMONY  OF  REV.  JOHN  CARRUTHERS,  PASADENA,  CALIF. 

The  Chairman.  Dr.  Carruthers,  I  understand  you  desire  to  make 
a  brief  statement  to  the  committee,  and  we  will  be  only  too  glad  to 
hear  you  at  this  time. 

Will  you  state  your  full  name  and  address  ? 

Dr.  Carruthers.  My  name  is  Kev.  John  Carruthers;  my  address 
is  1015  Prospect  Boulevard,  Pasadena,  Calif. 

The  Chairman.  You  may  proceed. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  am  here  in  connection  with  the 
national-service  problems  of  the  National  Presbyterian  Church, 
which  is  the  Covenant-First  Presbyterian  Church,  at  Connecticut 
Avenue  and  N  Street. 

That  church  has  been  designated  by  the  General  Assembly  of  the 
Presbyterian  Church  in  the  United  States  to  be  a  so-called  cathedral 
church,  representing  about  2,000,000  people.  This  is  the  third  time 
I  have  been  associated  with  this  church  in  25  years. 


Filed  with  the  committee  and  not  printed. 


Qg24  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

The  interests  of  the  Presbyterians  in  the  national  emergency  of 
total  spiritual  defense  includes  the  question  before  this  committee, 
and  I  have  volunteered  to  ask  to  be  heard  here,  largely  because  of 
the  stimulation  that  Mr.  Collins  and  some  of  the  other  members  of 
the  survey  have  provided.  Also,  I  have  been  asked  to  give  a  series 
of  lectures  in  the  country  on  this  particular  question,  and  I  have  been 
given  some  of  the  literature. 

At  first,  let  me  state  that  I  believe  the  United  States  owes  this 
committee  a  great  debt  for  the  sincere  way  in  which  they  have  at- 
tempted to  present  and  deal  with  a  problem  very  few  people  know 
much  about,  and,  unfortunately,  that  very  few  church  people  care 
much  about. 

At  the  same  time  that  I  am  speaking  in  terms  of  commendation 
let  me  also  speak  in  terms  of  mild  condemnation  of  the  fact  that  the 
church  has  been  blind  on  this  question,  and  that  goes  also  for  the 
Catholic  church  and  the  Jewish  church  and  churches  of  all  denomi- 
nations. 

It  is  distinctly  the  spiritual  problem  of  the  church,  this  great  ques- 
tion of  the  stranger  within  our  midst. 

I  feel  that  I  might  make  one  or  two  constructive  suggestions,  and 
I  only  want  to  volunteer  these  suggestions  because  I  want  you  to  be 
encouraged. 

You  have  no  idea  how  ready  the  churches  are  to  take  this  ball  if 
you  will  only  throw  it  over  to  them  in  some  kind  of  a  way.  But 
there  is  a  great  deal  of  education  that  will  have  to  be  done  to  get 
tliem  to  get  into  the  team  play  and  run  with  the  ball. 

I  make  the  suggestion,  first,  that  if  it  is  possible,  we  hold  a  con- 
vocation in  Washington  under  the  auspices  of  all  churches  in  the 
United  States,  under  all  of  the  official  members  of  all  denominations, 
to  lay  upon  them  the  spiritual  obligation  to  dedicate  their  facilities, 
their  institutions,  their  men,  and  their  social-science  and  home-service 
organizations  to  this  problem. 

URGES  CONTINUAXCE  OF  MIGRATION  COMMITTEE 

Second,  I  would  like  to  urge  the  continuation  of  this  committee 
in  some  form.     You  have  just  scratched  the  surface  on  this  question. 

Third,  I  would  like  to  make  the  more  practical  and  immediate 
suggestion,  that  those  ministers  in  Washington,  D.  C,  who  are  listed 
and  appointed  by  their  denominations  to  be  ministers  of  national 
churches  such  as  the  Baptist,  the  Methodist,  the  Catholic,  and  the 
Presbyterian,  be  formed  into  a  very  small  committee  of  about  a  dozen 
to  take  under  advisement  the  policy  and  procedure  that  would  seem 
to  me  most  practical  in  connection  with  this  problem,  so  that  this 
hearing  will  not  blow  up  with  just  a  lot  of  data  printed  in  the  old 
Congressional  Record,  good  as  it  is,  and  put  the  inspiration  of  your 
help  into  it. 

I  would  like  to  see  your  congressional  committee  and  associates 
move  into  the  churches"^  of  Washington  and  open  the  eyes  that  are 
blind  on  this  subject. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3625 

The  Chairman.  Doctor,  the  committee  seems  to  be  unanimous  in  the 
expression  of  the  thought  that  yours  is  the  first  suggestion  of  the 
spiritual  connection  of  this  whole  migrant  movement,  in  reference 
to  the  stranger  within  our  gates. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  This  is  our  problem. 

The  Chairman.  In  other  words,  there  were  4  million  migrants 
last  year  going  from  State  to  State,  Stateless  and  homeless. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  And  churchless. 

The  Chairman.  And  under  the  Constitution  they  are  citizens  of 
the  48  States,  and  not  just  of  their  own  States. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  But  barriers  have  been  raised  against  them,  just 
as  if  the  48  States  were  48  nations. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  It  is  criminal. 

The  Chairman.  Certainly,  you  cannot  stop  their  moving  about; 
this  is  their  country. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  Certainly. 

The  Chairman.  We  cannot  keep  on  kicking  them  around  without 
having  that  action  strike  at  the  morale  of  our  country. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  Let  me  say  that  this  extremely  persuasive  report 
of  the  lady  who  just  preceded  me  as  a  witness  before  you  had  good 
warmth  in  it,  but  after  that,  where  are  you  going?  There  are  some 
things  I  know,  and  there  ought  to  be  some  place  in  which  every  com- 
munity in  every  State  which  has  this  problem  could  maintain  a  kind 
of  settlement  house  or  cooperative  spiritual  service  center  supported 
by  church  and  private  money  so  that  these  people  could  be  taken  into 
a  kind  of  clinic  where  they  could  be  given  constructive  service,  and 
not  throw  them  out,  for  instance,  into  the  city  of  Los  Angeles,  where 
I  live,  and  simply  have  them  thrown  to  the  wolves,  but  let  them  go 
where  they  might  have  some  spiritual  attention.  It  might  take 
months  before  they  could  be  located. 

The  Chairman.  I  think  you  have  hit  the  nail  on  the  head,  because 
the  heart  of  the  American  people  is  absolutely  sound. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  But  it  takes  a  campaign  of  education  to  get  over  a 
movement  of  this  kind. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  Yes ;  and  we  are  ready  to  help  you. 

The  Chairman.  In  New  York  and  other  places  where  we  have  been 
throughout  the  country  they  have  this  problem.  When  we  were  trying 
to  get  this  resolution  passed  in  Congress,  they  said  it  is  a  California 
problem  and  not  a  problem  involvintr  the  whole  country. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  It  is  not  at  all  simply  a  California  problem. 

The  Chairman.  We  thank  you  for  your  statement  and  your  sug- 
gestions, and  I  think  we  will  take  advantage  of  them. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  I  thank  you. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  was  very  much  interested  in  your  statement.  You  said 
you  might  have  other  suggestions  to  offer,  and  I  think  our  record 
should  ibe  open  to  you  so  that  you  may  insert  those  suggestions  in  your 
statement.  I  am  sure  the  committee  will  be  highly  pleased  to  have  you 
develop  the  subject  further  and  give  us  such  other  suggestions  as  you 
may  have  to  make  within  the  next  10  days. 


3026  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Dr.  Carruthers.  I  would  like  to  say,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  these  re- 
marks are  entirely  spontaneous,  and  I  would  like  to  have  a  chance  to 
make  some  reservations  in  what  I  have  said,  because  I  would  like  to 
implement  my  suggestions.^ 

The  Chairman.  You  will  be  given  that  permission. 

Dr.  Carruthers.  I  thank  you,  gentlemen. 

The  Chairman.  The  next  witness  is  Mr.  Ranch,  Acting  Commis- 
sioner of  the  Federal  AVorks  Agency,  Work  Projects  Administration. 

TESTIMONY  OF  FRED  R.  RATJCH,  ACTING  COMMISSIONER,  FEDERAL 
WORKS  AGENCY,  WORK  PROJECTS  ADMINISTRATION 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Ranch,  will  you  give  the  reporter  your  full  name, 
your  address,  and  your  official  capacity. 

Mr.  Rauch.  My  name  is  Fred  R.  Ranch ;  I  am  Acting  Commissioner 
of  the  Work  Projects  Administration. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  are  Acting  Commissioner  of  the  Federal  Works 
Agency  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  Of  the  Work  Projects  Administration. 

Mr.  Chairman  and  gentlemen  of  the  committee  [reading] : 

Migration  of  Destitute  Citizens  to  Defense  Centers 

Migration  of  workers  to  centers  of  new  industrial  activity  is  changing  the 
character  of  the  migration  problem  considerably.  During  the  next  few  months, 
a  great  deal  less  will  be  heard  of  farm  migrations  and  a  great  deal  more  of 
the  large  group  of  persons  moving  into  centers  of  greatly  increased  industrial 
activity  resulting  directly  and  indirectly  from  the  defense  armament  program. 
Generally  speaking,  the  unskilled  worker  who  is  migrating  is  not  finding  a 
ready  market  for  his  labor. 

The  most  striking  evidences  of  migrations  appear  in  connection  with  defense 
operations  either  in  industrial  centers  or  at  Army  cantonments.  The  migra- 
tions into  States  create  more  problems  than  migrations  out  of  States.  Serious 
situations  have  not  yet  been  created  where  labor  leaves  an  area.  However, 
the  W.  P.  A.  in  watching  economic  trends,  has  observed  substantial  migrations 
of  labor  from  the  States  of  Alabama,  Arkansas,  the  Dakotas,  Georgia,  Kansas, 
Kentucky,  Louisiana,  Nebraska,  Oklahoma,  Texas,  Vermont,  and  Washington 
into  other  States.     Obviously  the  list  is  incomplete. 

This  is  brought  out  clearly  in  examining  reports  from  many  States  which 
report  an  influx  of  labor : 

Arizona  reports  its  usual  type  of  influx  of  cotton  pickers  but  it  has  shown  no 
appreciable  influx  as  a  result  of  the  defense  program. 

The  same  situation  is  reported  for  Arkansas. 

In  Florida  there  is  at  least  the  usual  seasonal  migration  of  workers  who 
seek  to  obtain  winter  employment  in  milder  climates.  The  citrus  belt  also 
offers  employment  opportunities.  A  very  important  concentration  exists  at 
Camp  Blanding  (60  miles  southwest  of  Jacksonville).  Approximately  19,000 
workers  were  concentrated  in  this  area  according  to  recent  reports  received. 

There  is  undoubtedly  some  inter-State  migration  into  Illinois,  although  this 
has  not  been  described  as  a  serious  influx. 

Indiana  has  received  workers  from  Arkansas  and  Missouri. 

In  Louisiana  a  large  concenraation  of  out-of-State  workers  exists  at  Camp 
Beauregard  in  the  Alexandria  area.  It  has  been  estimated  that  a  third  of 
the  16,000  workers  have  come  from  adjoining  States. 


No  additional  material  was  received  by  the  committee. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3627 

Maryland  has  received  workers  from  adjoining  States,  a  large  part  of  them 
being  drawn  to  the  Fort  Meade  area. 

Mississippi  shipyards  have  attracted  skilled  workers  from  the  northern 
States. 

New  Hampshire  rejwrts  some  movement  into  the  State  of  workers  who  liave 
come  after  making  specific  arrangements  for  jobs. 

Workers  are  coming  into  North  Carolina  from  Georgia  and  South  Carolina. 
A  concentration  point  is  Fort  Bragg. 

Similarly,  in  Ohio,  workers  are  coming  in  from  West  Virginia  and  Pennsyl- 
vania to  seek  employment. 

The  principal  concentration  points  for  out-of-State  labor  in  South  Carolina 
are  Fort  Jackson  near  Columbia,  and  Charleston.  At  Fort  Jackson,  approxi- 
mately 10,000  persons  have  been  employed,  of  which  over  a  third  have  come  from 
outside  the  State,  principally  North  Carolina  and  Georgia.  Workers  at  the 
Charleston  Navy  Yard  likewise  have  come,  in  some  cases,  from  outside  the  State. 
The  turn-over  of  employment  at  Fort  Jackson  is  great  because  of  the  Inadequate 
training  and  experience  of  persons  who  have  obtained  employment. 

In  Vermont  the  Burlington  and  Fort  Ethan  Allen  areas  are  attracting  out-of- 
State  labor.  The  Eastern  Shore  of  Virginia  has  had  a  substantial  boom  in  em- 
ployment because  of  defense  activities.  It  has  not  been  possible  to  estimate  how 
much  of  the  employment  is  from  out-of-State  sources,  yet  it  is  believed  that  a 
substantial  amount  must  be  of  that  type. 

There  are,  of  course,  many  shifts  in  employment  within  States.  In  examining 
economic  trends.  Work  Projects  Administration  State  organizations  advise  that 
such  movements  are  occurring  in  connection  with  defense  acivities  in  California, 
Connecticut,  Georgia,  Kentucky,  Louisiana,  Michigan,  Mississippi,  Nevada,  New 
Jersey  Rhode  Island,  Tennessee,  Texas,  Vermont,  and  Washington. 

New  York  City  reports  a  shift  in  the  source  of  out-of-State  families  coming 
into  that  metropolis.  There  has  formerly  been  a  strong  concentration  from  the 
South,  but  there  is  a  shift  to  families  coming  from  the  Middle  and  Western 
States.  This  undoubtedly  can  be  explained  in  part  by  the  increased  employment 
opportunities  in  the  South. 

One  of  the  conditions  which  is  commonly  noted  is  that  some  of  the  migrating 
families  which  are  seeking  work  are  not  destitute.  They  are  frequently  poor,  and 
if  they  do  not  find  employment  quickly,  serious  need  problems  will  result.  How- 
ever, the  type  of  migrating  family  which  is  appearing  in  many  defense  areas  is  that 
which  has  means  of  making  its  migration  from  the  home  area  to  the  defense 
area.  There  should  be  considerable  concern  as  to  the  dislocation  and  responsi- 
bility for  caring  for  needy  families  when  such  booms  in  employment  are  over. 

LIVING  CONDITIONS  IN  ARE;AS   AFFECTED  BY  MIGRATION  OF  LABOR 

The  current  migration  to  Army  cantonment  construction  areas  and  centers  of 
defense  industry  has  affected  the  housing  problem  of  local  residents  and  the  new 
influx  of  labor  to  varying  degrees. 

Generally  speaking,  the  most  thickly  populated  States,  where  defense  industries 
have  drawn  labor  to  large  industrial  centers,  report  little  or  no  housing  difficulties. 
The  smaller  centers  of  employment  are  less  adequately  prepared  to  meet  the 
problem,  and  therefore  the  burden  of  housing  increases  in  proportion.  In  places 
where  rents  have  advanced,  the  burden  of  higher  prices,  crowded  living  condi- 
tions, and  scarcity  of  houses,  has  been  felt  not  so  much  by  the  imported  labor 
group  as  by  the  local  low-income  group.  Some  of  the  northeastern  States  and  the 
Middle  Atlantic  Seaboard  States  feel  this  most  acutely.  In  many  places,  steps 
have  been  taken,  either  through  local  groups  of  the  Federal  Housing  Authority,  to 
remedy  this  situation. 

The  mushroom  growths  in  the  neighborhood  of  Army  cantonments  are  a 
result  of  sudden  influxes  of  labor.  These  influxes  have  reached  startling 
proportions,  and  are  in  the  places  where  the  most  serious  housing,  health,  and 
sanitation  problems  are  found.  Army  cantonments  are  frequently  located 
near  small  communities,  which  are  totally  unprepared  to  meet  the  needs  of 
the  new  residents.  Housing  and  restaurant  facilities  are  lacking,  unreason- 
able prices  for  poor  shelter  and  food  prevail,  and  workers  live  in  automobiles, 
shacks,  or  other  improvised  quarters.  The  sanitation  problem  is  a  great 
danger  to  public  health. 


3628 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Outstanding  examples  are  the  housing  conditions  at  the  Army  post  under 
construction  at  Tullahoma,  Tenn.  Approximately  one-half  of  the  8,000  workers 
live  within  a  radius  of  30  miles  and  provide  their  own  transportation.  The 
i-emainder,  who  have  migrated  from  other  points  of  the  State  or  other  States, 
are  attempting  to  live  near  Tullahoma  in  tents,  automobiles,  and  barns.  Every 
hotel  rooming  house,  and  private  home  is  filled  to  capacity.  The  largest  hotel 
in  the  vicinity  has  established  a  rate  of  $90  a  month  for  a  single  room  without 
bath  and  board.  The  State  department  of  health  advises  that  the  sanitary 
conditions  in  the  vicinity  of  the  cantonment  site  and  of  the  town  of  Tulla- 
homa, are  very  bad.  The  Work  Projects  Administration  sanitary  project  has 
been  enlarged  in  an  attempt  to  alleviate  the  condition  but  because  of  the 
extent  of  the  condition,  the  situation  remains  sei-ious. 

In  Columbia,  S.  C,  there  is  a  great  need  for  additional  housing  facilities. 
However,  even  though  these  are  provided,  the  migrants  seeking  work  in  Fort 
Jackson  would  probably  not  benefit  from  them  since  new  living  quarters,  with 
the  exception  of  low-cost  housing  under  the  United  States  Housing  Authority, 
are  outside  the  range  of  the  migrants'  income.  Most  of  them  live  in  board- 
ing houses,  tourist  and  trailer  camps,  or  in  automobiles. 

Several  cities  in  Texas,  among  tliem  Dallas,  Corpus  Christi,  Galveston,  and 
Houston  report  inadequate  living  conditions.  Rents  have  generally  increased. 
Many  migrants  are  sleeping  in  automobiles  and  trucks,  or  fenced  inclosures 
with  no  roof.  Cooking  is  done  along  the  roadside.  Sanitation  facilities  are 
lacking. 

Situations  similar  to  those  cited  above  are  duplicated  in  many  States.  In- 
creased efforts  are  being  made  by  local  authorities  and  contractors  to  bring 
about  some  improvement.    The  situation  continues  to  be  very  serious. 

CONCLUSIONS 

It  is  my  recommendation  that  the  committee  should  not  overlook  the  maxi- 
mum application  of  the  services  of  existing  Federal  agencies  in  alleviating 
the  migration  problem.  An  adequate  housing  program  and  greater  use  of 
the  State  employment  service  as  clearing  houses  for  information  as  to  available 
jobs  are  much  to  be  desired. 

My  recommendations,  however,  are  directed  primarily  to  the  Federal  services 
which  have  prevented  and  can  do  much  more  to  prevent  unnecessary  migration. 
The  stamp  plan  which  is  often  the  only  assistance  given  to  needy  families  in  rural 
areas  should  be  extended.  The  work  program  operated  by  the  Work  Projects 
Administration  should  continue  to  provide  assistance  to  needy  unemployed  work- 
ers where  they  live.  The  farm-security  program  should  extend,  if  possible,  the 
rehabilitation  services.  Perhaps  a  combined  program  of  rehabilitation  on  the 
farm  with  a  limited  amount  of  Work  Projects  Administration  work  for  cash 
income  could,  in  a  limited  period  of  time,  permanently  rehabilitate  many  families. 
Such  a  program  would  be  of  relatively  low  cost  compared  to  the  cost  which  is 
going  to  fall  sooner  or  later  upon  either  the  Federal  or  local  governments,  or  both, 
for  maintaining  needy  migrating  families  which  have  lost  completely  their  eco- 
nomic roots. 

TESTIMONY  OF  FRED  R.  RAUCH— Resumed 

Mr.  Sparkman,  I  have  read  your  statement,  Mr.  Eauch,  which  has 
been  made  a  part  of  the  record.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  a  few  questions 
and  have  you  give  us  some  of  the  high  points  of  your  statement,  if  you 
care  to  do  so. 

Were  you  here  when  Mrs.  Williams  was  giving  her  statement  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  No,  sir ;  I  am  sorry  I  missed  it. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  the  course  of  her  statement  she  told  us  in  rather 
graphic  language  of  the  conditions  existing  at  Camp  Blanding,  Fla. 
I  believe  you  mentioned  that  in  your  statement,  and  you  also  mentioned 
the  situation  at  Camp  Tullahoma,  in  Tennessee.  It  seems  they  are  com- 
parable. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3629 

I  would  like  to  have  you  describe  those  situations,  according  to  the 
information  you  have,  and  just  what  work  has  been  done  to  alleviate 
the  conditions. 

HEAVY  MIGRATIONS  TO  CAMP  SITES 

Mr.  Rauch.  At  Camp  Blanding,  Camp  Tullahoma,  as  well  as  other 
places  of  similar  character,  there  has  been  a  great  deal  of  migration 
of  skilled  and  semiskilled  construction  workers  for  the  purpose  of  ob- 
taining work  in  the  construction  of  the  cantonments.  The  same  thing 
is  true,  I  am  sure,  at  Fort  Bragg,  N.  C,  and  at  Camp  Beauregard,  in 
Louisiana. 

The  chief  difficulty  seems  to  be  that  word  goes  out  that  a  great  many 
skilled  mechanics  are  needed  and  that  high  wages  are  being  paid  for 
construction  work  around  the  camps.  A  great  many  people  flock 
there.  These  camps  are  usually  situated  close  to  small  towns.  It 
would  be  unusual  for  them  to  be  situated  near  a  large  center  of  popu- 
lation. 

Housing  facilities  are  limited,  and  sanitary  facilities  are  limited. 
The  employment  facilities  are  very  limited  in  comparison  with  the 
great  number  of  people  who  go  to  seek  work,  and  it  causes  a  very 
distressing  condition. 

The  fact  that  people  go  there  in  large  numbers  increases  the  cost  of 
food,  increases  the  cost  of  housing  facilities  that  are  available,  and 
causes  extremely  dangerous  sanitary  conditions.  It  seems  to  me  it  is 
something  that  should  be  seriously  considered  by  the  committee,  in 
order,  if  possible,  to  do  something  about  it  as  rapidly  as  possible. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Are  those  conditions  for  only  a  short  duration  of 
time,  or  do  you  contemplate  they  will  continue  for  the  entire  construc- 
tion period? 

Mr.  Rauch.  For  the  most  part,  as  we  see  it  now,  the  construction 
work  will  be  completed  early  in  1941.  Of  course,  I  assume  there  will 
be  work  continuously  going  on  at  those  places,  and  there  will  be  a 
continuous  stream  of  people  seeking  work. 

Of  course,  it  is  necessary  to  have  persons  going  to  those  places  to 
seek  work  so  they  may  have  the  labor  necessary  to  construct  the  work 
that  needs  to  be  done.  My  opinion  is  that  the  conditions  will  get 
better  the  longer  the  problem  is  with  us. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Most  of  these  people  who  become  problem  people, 
I  might  say — are  they  skilled  or  unskilled  workmen  ? 

SKILLED  workers  MIGRATE 

Mr.  Rauch.  They  are  all  skilled  and  semiskilled  people.  We  find 
very  little,  however,  in  connection  with  the  national-defense  program 
of  unskilled  people  leaving  their  homes  to  seek  work.  For  the  most 
part  it  is  the  skilled  and  semiskilled  people  who  feel  they  can  obtain 
work  in  the  construction  of  the  camps. 

I  have  one  example  I  can  cite,  if  you  please,  at  Fort  Bragg,  in  North 
Carolina. 

There  are  a  considerable  number  of  contractors  engaged  in  the  con- 
struction of  facilities  at  that  camp. 


3630  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

There  is  an  employment  office  down  there.  The  Employment  Serv- 
ice has  been  sending  requisitions  up  until  recently — I  am  not  sure 
whether  they  have  or  have  not  discontinued  the  practice — they  have 
been  sending  requisitions  for  2,500  carpenters,  and  when  the  carpenters 
come  down  there — people  hear  of  this  information  through  the  trade 
journals  and  by  word  of  mouth  and  in  newspaper  stories — when  these 
men  go  down  there,  men  who  profess  to  be  carpenters,  they  are  put  out 
in  what  is  more  or  less  of  a  bull  pen  and  told  to  wait.  A  contractor's 
superintendent  may  need  15  carpenters,  and  1  carpenter  superintendent 
would  go  out  to  this  camp  and  say  they  need  15  carpenters,  and  they 
will  have  them  come  in. 

Maybe  in  another  section  of  the  work  a  contractor  would  be  laying 
off  15  carpenters,  and  they  would  go  back  into  the  waiting  line,  with 
this  large  group  of  people  waiting  for  jobs. 

We  have  had  several  actual  experiences  where  men  have  come  from 
70  to  80  miles,  men  who  worked  on  W.  P.  A.  and  who  worked  out 
there. 

The  policy  of  W.  P.  A.  is  that  if  there  is  a  job  with  any  decent 
circumstances  surrounding  it,  if  the  pay  is  about  right  and  the  hours 
about  right  and  job  conditions  anywhere  near  fair,  we  require  workers 
to  leave  W.  P.  A.  to  take  private  work.  We  have  cut  people  off  of 
W.  P.  A.  and  sent  them  up  there,  and  we  have  done  this  in  other  like 
situations.  If  they  do  get  the  job,  then  after  they  work  all  day  they 
have  found  that  there  is  no  place  within  50  or  60  miles  for  them  to  stay. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  W.  P.  A.  has  never  been  able  to  give  employment 
to  all  those  who  have  been  certified,  has  it  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  About  what  percentage  have  they  been  able  to 
give  employment  to,  would  you  say? 

Mr.  Rauoh.  About  65  percent  of  those  who  are  certified. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  that  about  the  average  throughout  the  country  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  That  is  about  the  average  throughout  the  country; 
3'es,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  heard  the  State  manager  of  projects  in  my  State 
of  Alabama  make  the  statement  that  50  percent  was  the  highest  for 
our  particular  State. 

Mr.  Rauoh.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  in  Alabama.  Your  agricultural  con- 
ditions there  have  not  been  as  favorable  as  they  might  have  been 
to  the  intake  situation.  In  other  words,  they  have  certified  people 
down  there  pretty  freely. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  But  they  have  certified  them  less,  proportionately, 
than  in  other  areas? 

Mr.  Rauoh.  That  is  right. 

gravity  of  post-emergency  period 

Mr.  Sparkman.  A  good  many  witnesses  who  have  appeared  before 
our  committee  have  warned  us  "of  the  gravity  of  the  situation  which 
will  exist  after  the  period  of  emergency  defense  activity  is  ended, 
and  have  said  that  we  might  expect  another  big  migration  at  that 
time.     I  wonder  what  your  thoughts  are  along  that  line. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3631 

Mr.  Eatjch.  It  certainly  will  present  a  very  serious  problem  to  this 
Nation  during  the  post-war  time. 

I,  of  course,  believe  sincerely  in  a  work  program,  but  I  believe 
the  best  defense  in  preparation  for  that  time  is  the  maintenance  of 
an  adequate  work  program  for  needy  people. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Certainly  we  should  be  contemplating  such  an 
emergency  and  planning  for  it. 

Mr.  Rauch.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  8PARKMAN.  What  has  been  the  general  policy  of  W.  P.  A. 
regarding  the  shutting  down  or  adjusting  of  projects  to  meet  the 
seasonal  demands  for  farm  labor? 

Mr.  Rauch.  It  is  the  fixed  policy  of  W.  P.  A.  to  close  down  any 
project,  no  matter  how  important  the  project  might  be,  in  order 
to  permit  workers  to  take  jobs  in  private  industry. 

Whether  it  has  been  just  a  1-day  job,  or  a  2-day  job,  a  1-month 
job,  or  a  permanent  job,  it  has  been  the  policy  of  W.  P.  A.  to  require 
the  workers  to  go  to  private  jobs  when  they  can  get  them,  and  we 
will  go  to  any  extreme,  as  far  as  the  closing  down  of  projects  is 
concerned,  to  get  them  to  do  that. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  other  words,  it  is  the  policy  of  W.  P.  A.  to 
regard  that  activity  not  as  a  career  industry,  but  simply  as  an  organi- 
zation to  furnish  work  to  take  care  of  an  emergency  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Sometimes  we  hear  complaints  of  people  in  rural 
areas  to  the  effect  that  they  cannot  get  help  in  connection  with  their 
crops,  particularly  during  harvesting  time,  or,  down  in  my  section 
of  the  country  in  the  spring  when  hoeing  time  comes,  because  people 
will  not  leave  W.  P.  A.  to  take  that  employment. 

Formerly  there  was  some  difficulty,  was  there  not,  for  employees 
to  get  back  to  work  on  W.  P.  A.  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  Yes;  at  one  time  there  was  more  difficulty  than  in  the 
last  2  or  3  years. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  has  been  adjusted  over  the  last  couple  of 
years  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  law  provides  that  workers 
who  leave  W.  P.  A.  to  take  jobs  in  private  industry  and  lose  their 
jobs  through  no  fault  of  their  own,  must  be  restored  to  their  previous 
employment  status  without  delay. 

WORK   projects   ADMINISTRATION    SHUT-DOWN 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  you  had  any  shut-downs  in  projects  because 
of  a  lack  of  skilled  labor? 

Mr.  Rauch.  We  have  had  to  close  down  projects  in  certain  areas 
because  of  lack  of  all  types  of  labor.  We  have  restricted  our  opera- 
tions in  certain  sections,  on  the  Eastern  Shore  of  Virginia;  at  Hamp- 
ton Roads  and  Norfolk,  the  program  there  has  been  restricted. 

Then  at  San  Diego,  Calif.,  our  program  has  been  restricted. 

Not  far  from  here,  during  the  apple  season,  at  Winchester,  Va., 
we  closed  down  a  project  in  that  county  so  that  there  would  be  a 
sufficient  amount  of  labor  to  pick  the  apple  crop. 


3032  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

It  may  be  interesting-  in  this  connection  for  you  to  know  that 
W.  P.  A.  investigates  thoroughly  every  complaint  we  get,  even  if 
it  involves  only  one  worker,  and  the  complaint  says  that  this  man 
refused  to  leave  W.  P.  A.,  or  the  man  making  the  complaint  might 
say,  "I  am  a  farmer,  but  I  have  been  unable  to  get  help  during  the 
harvest  season  or  the  planting  season."  I  want  to  make  it  clear 
there  is  not  one  complaint  that  is  not  investigated.  But  in  the  past 
we  have  found  only  one  small  fraction  of  1  percent  of  the  com- 
plaints had  any  validity.  The  investigations  are  not  in  the  nature 
of  a  whitewash,  but  are  made  in  order  to  obtain  the  facts.  We 
do  that  because  we  want  to  be  sure  that  workers  on  W.  P.  A.  do 
not  regard  W.  P.  A.  as  a  permanent  job. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Can  you  give  us  any  idea  as  to  the  number  of 
unskilled  workers  taken  from  the  W.  P.  A.  by  the  defense  program  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  No,  sir.  We  lose  on  the  average  100,000  persons  a 
month,  who  leave  W.  P.  A.  voluntarily  to  go  into  private  industry. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Over  how  long  a  time  have  you  been  losing  that 
number  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  That  percentage  has  been  pretty  constant  over  5 
years. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Has  there  been  any  quickening  of  that  since  the 
defense  program  started? 

Mr.  Rauch.  No.  I  think  probably  there  have  been  more  skilled 
workers  who  have  left  W.  P.  A.  But  I  am  not  at  all  sure  that  there 
has  been  any  greater  percentage  of  unskilled  workers  that  have 
left  W.  P.  A. 

REFRESHER   COURSES   FOR   WORKERS 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Can  you  give  us  any  idea  to  what  extent  W.  P.  A. 
workers  have  received  refresher  courses  in  vocational  training  con- 
nected with  the  defense  program? 

Mr.  Rauch.  We  have  at  the  present  time  about  29,000  people  on 
W.  P.  A.  in  vocational  schools  receiving  refresher  courses.  Those 
courses  last  from  4  to  9  or  10  weeks  at  the  outside. 

1  have  not  the  current  reports,  but  the  number  of  people  who 
gain  jobs  after  they  have  those  refresher  courses  is  increasing  to 
quit«  an  extent. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Wliat  are  the  ages  of  the  employees  who  take 
those  courses? 

Mr.  Rauch.  We  have  no  age  limit.  The  age  of  the  trainee  de- 
pends on  the  requirements  of  private  industry.  If  we  can  get  a 
man  on  W.  P.  A.  who  has  been  a  skilled  workman  in  the  past,  even 
though  he  is  55  or  60  years  old,  we  try  to  see  that  he  gets  back 
into  private  industry,  and  we  provide  for  that  as  quickly  as  if  he 
were  only  18  or  20  years  old.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  we  work  with 
employers  right  along  to  obtain  that  result. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Mr.  Rauch,  you  made  reference  in  your  testimony  to 
shutting  down  projects  in  order  to  take  care  of  seasonal  employment 
in  certain  areas,  such  as  areas  where  there  is  fruit  picking  or  harvesting. 

Wliat  procedure,  if  any,  has  been  undertaken  by  the  local  agencies 
of  W.  P.  A.  in  looking  after  this  seasonal  employment,  in  whatever 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3633 

line  it  may  be,  and  to  have  those  people  reinstated,  so  far  as  the  local 
district  or  county  officers  are  concerned  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  Of  course,  as  you  know,  W.  P.  A.  is  decentralized  and 
operates  in  more  than  3,000  counties  in  the  United  States,  and  our 
administrative  employees,  those  people  who  operate  the  program  and 
are  responsible  for  the  operation  of  the  program  are  usually  local 
people,  and  they  know  the  employment  conditions,  and  they  know 
the  industrial  and  agricultural  conditions  in  the  county.  It  is  our 
policy  that  they  shall  keep  in  touch  with  those  conditions,  and  if  it  is 
necessary  to  close  a  project  down,  that  they  shall  do  it.  It  is  only 
necessary  for  an  employer  to  show  that  he  needs  labor  in  order  to  have 
them  close  a  project. 

Mr.  Parsons.  There  has  been  some  complaint  in  my  territory  that 
I  had  taken  little  pains  in  the  last  3  or  4  years  to  even  slightly  investi- 
gate those  conditions,  at  least. 

We  have  in  one  county  of  my  district  a  great  deal  of  fruit.  The 
orchardmen  have  complained  to  me  that  they  could  not  get  W.  P.  A. 
labor  to  harvest  the  fruit.  The  individuals  who  used  to  be  employed 
by  them  are  now  working  on  W.  P.  A.  Wlien  I  have  referred  the 
matter  to  W.  P.  A.  officials  the  statement  has  been  made  to  me  on  more 
than  one  occasion  that  they  do  not  propose  to  pay  W.  P.  A.  wages  for 
the  harvesting  of  crops  or  fruit. 

IVhat  is  your  requirement  and  procedure  in  the  local  offices  with 
reference  to  wages  paid  and  the  conditions  under  which  W.  P.  A. 
workers  must  be  furloughed  to  aid  and  assist  the  landlords? 

Mr.  Rauch.  The  only  requirement  W.  P.  A.  has  is  that  the  wages 
paid  are  the  going  wages  in  that  community. 

FRUIT  GROWERS  WANT  CHEAP  LABOR 

We  have  had  complaints  from  industrial  areas  and  fruit  growers  that 
they  could  not  get  W.  P.  A.  workers  to  harvest  their  crop,  paying  a 
dollar  a  day  for  an  8-  or  12-hour  day,  which  is  perhaps  50  cents  under 
the  going  rate.  That  is  the  only  situation  in  which  we  feel  that  the  con- 
tinued operation  on  a  project  is  justified. 

If  the  wages  are  the  going  rate  in  the  community  for  that  particular 
type  of  work  we  do  not  feel  that  we  are  authorized  to  make  them  raise 
the  wages.  If  they  are  the  going  wages  in  the  community  for  that 
particular  type  of  work,  then  it  may  be  necessary  to  close  down  those 
projects. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Ordinarily,  in  this  apple  and  peach  country  they  pay 
the  workers  on  a  piece  basis.  Sometimes,  if  a  worker  is  the  "right  kind 
of  a  worker  they  pay  him  at  a  daily,  weekly,  or  hourly  rate,  which 
runs,  on  the  average,  at  least  $2  a  day.  Of  course,  that  requires  that 
they  work  longer  than  on  W.  P.  A.,  maybe  as  long  as  10  hours. 

Naturally,  the  operators  are  critical,  in  many  instances,  of  W.  P.  A. 
for  that  reason. 

The  same  thing  is  true  in  harvest  time,  in  connection  with  wheat, 
oats,  and  grass  fields.  They  complain  because  they  cannot  get  W.  P.  A. 
workers. 


3634 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


From  my  observation,  and  I  think  they  have  done  as  good  a  job  in 
southern  Illinois  as  anywhere  else— my  observation  is  that  not 
enough  attention  is.  paid  to  those  things  by  the  local  W.  P.  A.  That 
may  have  been  changed  in  the  last  10  days  or  2  or  3  weeks. 

A  fellow  working',  on  W.  P.  AJ  feels,  if  he  leaves  to  accept'  a  job  in 
private  employment,  when  he  comes  back  he  will  not  be  able^  to 
get  his  job  back  on  W.  P.  A.  no  matter  what  the  wages  have  been. 

Mr.  Kauch.  I  am  sorry  I  do  not  have  with  me  a  copy'  of  the 
instructions,  or  a  bulletin  sent  out  to  the  States  within  the  last  day 
or  two,  to  which  was  attached  a  statement  to  the  W.  P.  A.  workers 

Mr.  Parsons.  Was  that  the  statement  which  appeared  in  the  press 
yesterday,  under  Mr.  Hunter's  authorization? 

Mr.  Rauch.  Yes,  sir.  I  would  be  pleased  to  send  you  a  copy  of 
that  statement,  with  those  instructions  to  the  States. 

I  will  also  be  pleased  if  you  would  call  to  the  attention  of  the  State 
Administrator  or  the  Washington  office,  or  to  my  attention,  any  time 
you  find  there  is  any  apparent  reluctance  to  see  that  workers  go  to 
private  jobs,  and  I  will  guarantee  it  will  be  investigated  promptly, 
and  appropriate  action  will  be  taken. 

Mr.  Parsons.  What  is  your  thought  or  estimate,  if  you  care  to  give 
it  at  this  time,  of  your  anticipations  of  the  roll  for  the  next  fiscal 
year  with  the  defense  program  speeded  up  as  it  is? 

Mr.  Rauch.  I  am  not  prepared  to  make  public  at  this  time  our 
estimates  because  that  would  depend  upon— for  the  next  fiscal  year, 
as  I  understood  you  to  say  ? 

Mr.  Parsons.  Well,  let  me  ask  you  this  question  first:  Will  the 
appropriation  which  the  Congress  has  made  for  the  fiscal  year  ending 
June  30,  1941,  be  sufficient  to  last  until  June  30? 

work  projects  administration  needs  more  money 

Mr.  Rauch.  The  appropriation,  as  you  will  recall,  was  made  with 
the  provision  that  it  could  be  expended  in  8  months.  It  will  not 
have  been  fully  expended  in  8  months  but  it  will  be  necessary  to 
request  a  supplemental  appropriation  in  the  early  session  of  Congress. 

Mr.  Parsons.  It  will  depend,  of  course,  upon  facts  that  develop 
between  now  and  June  30  as  to  the  contemplated  appropriation  of 
the  amount  that  will  take  for  the  next  fiscal  year. 

Mr.  Raush.  Yes. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Has  the  W.  P.  A.  taken  into  recognition  the  migra- 
tion problem ;  the  amount  of  unemployed  workers  in  certifying  those 
who  w^ere  eligible  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  Yes;  we  have  taken  it  into  consideration,  and  the 
W.  P.  A.  is  very  conscious  of  the  migrant  problem,  because  as  you 
wiil  recall  in  1934  and  1935  when  the  Federal  Emergency  Relief 
Administration,  which  was  the  predecessor  of  the  W.  P.  A.,  was  in 
operation,  we  had  a  special  program  for  transients  and  migrants. 

While  we  have  no  special  program  for  any  group  at  this  time, 
consideration  is  given  to  requests  from  State  administrators  for 
increases  in  quota  in  adjusting  the  unemployment  authorizations, 
where  the  migrants  are  certified  by  the  local  certifying  agencies  or 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3635 

the  State  relief  agency  on  the  projects  on  which  they  employ  them, 
but  outside  of  that  there  has  been  no  special  provision  made  for 
migrants. 

Mr.  Parsoxs.  You  are  finding,  however,  that  in  certain  areas 
sponsors  are  unable  to  furnish  further  contribution. 

Mr.  Rauch.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Parsons.  In  many  instances  for  certain  types  of  projects. 

Mr.  Rauch.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Parsons.  And  these  people,  if  you  are  unable  to  find  work  for 
them,  will  have  to  go  back  on  direct  relief  in  those  States? 

Mr.  Rauch.  Yes. 

AVORKS   PROGRAM    HERE  TO   STAY 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  you  think  that  there  will  ever  be  a  time  when 
we  will  be  able  to  get  entirely  away  from  a  works  program  for 
unemployed  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  No. 

Mr.  Parsons.  There  will  either  have  to  be  some  type  of  work  of 
that  character  or  else  they  will  have  to  be  thrown  back  on  direct 
relief  rolls  in  the  various  States. 

Mr.  Rauch.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Parsons.  What  do  you  think  are  the  reasons  for  the  great 
unemployment  and  of  its  continuing  in  spite  of  the  fact  production 
in  almost  every  activity  is  almost  at  as  high  a  peak  as  it  has  ever 
been  in  peacetime  of  this  country? 

Mr.  Rauch.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  factory  index  and  business 
index  is  the  highest  it  has  ever  been  in  the  history  of  the  United 
States,  and  still  there  are  great  masses  of  unemployed.  One  of  the 
very  important  reasons  for  the  continued  mass  unemployment  is 
the  increase  in  the  labor  groups,  the  increase  in  the  last  10  years 
of  the  number  of  persons  within  age  limits  that  are  considered 
working  groups. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Many  of  them  have  come  from  the  soil,  have  they 
not,  and  are  not  able  to  rehabilitate  themselves? 

Mr.  Rauch.  Many  of  them  have  come  from  the  farms.  There  is 
a  net  increase  in  the  labor  supply  of  about  600,000  people  a  year; 
that  is  a  net  increase,  of  young  people  coming  into  the  labor  market; 
a  net  increase  over  those  who  die  or  leave  the  labor  market  because 
of  old  age  and  incapacity. 

Mr.  Parsons.  And  the  mass  consumption  of  that  increase  does  not 
keep  pace  with  the  labor-displacing  machinery  which  makes  for  mass 
production,  does  it? 

Mr.  Rauch.  That  is  right ;  technological  improvements  and  general 
increase  in  the  efficiency  and  increased  mechanism  of  more  work 
requires  fewer  workers  than  have  been  required  in  the  past.  There 
is  a  combination  of  circumstances  that  causes  the  labor  supply  to 
be  much  larger  now  than  it  has  ever  been  and  much  larger  than  is 
necessary  to  produce  the  normal  requirements  of  the  population. 

ISIr.  Parsons.  Do  you  agree  with  me  in  this  statement  which  I  have 
made  many  times,  that  there  has  never  been  any  discovery  that  is  as 


JO — il_pt. ! 


Og36  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

good  for  the  liiiman  body  in  building  character  as  good  okl-fashioned 

Mr.  Rauch.  I  certainly  agree  with  you  to  the  fullest  extent. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Is  that  not  the  thing  that  has  made  America  great  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  If  it  is  not  the  sole  thing,  it  certainly  has  been  a  very 
important  factor. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Now,  perhaps  you  will  not  agree  with  me  on  the  next 
premise,  but  if  we  had  spent  as  much  time  trying  to  get  ourselves 
straight  about  labor-saving  machinery  as  we  should  we  would  have 
put  a  lot  of  these  people  back  to  work. 

Mr.  Rauch.  I  am  not  sure  that  I  could  agree  with  you  if  I  under- 
stand the  question  properly.  As  I  understand  your  question  is  that 
if  we  would  avoid  technological  improvements  then  we  could  have 
provided  work  for  a  great  many  more  people  who  are  unemployed^ 

Mr.  Parsons.  Yes. 

Mr.  Rauch,  No ;  I  think  it  would  have  been  a  measure  to  retard, 
in  a  way,  the  development  of  employment. 

NEW  INX'ENTIONS  TO  DISPLACE  LABOR 

Mr.  Parsons.  At  the  present  time  I  understand  there  are  a  lot  of 
new  inventions  already  patented,  that  will  further  and  greatly  dis- 
place labor,  that  are  'being  held  in  abeyance,  however,  because  of 
present  miemployment  conditions,  and  because  those  operations  are 
not  needed  in  our  national-defense  program  at  this  moment. 

There  are  many  inventions  ready  for  use  now  that,  if  we  should 
ever  become  engaged  in  war,  we  might  use  to  further  displace  labor 
and  increase  very  greatly  our  mass  production.  And  eventually,  if 
we  continue  at  the  rate  we  have  been  traveling  since  the  beginning 
of  the  World  War  in  1914  to  displace  labor,  will  not  the  day  come 
when  machines  become  the  masters  of  men  rather  than  men  being  the 
masters  of  machines? 

Mr.  Rauch.  No  ;  I  think  history  has  proven  otherwise.  I  am  not 
an  economist  but  we  only  have  to  go  back  as  far  as  the  cotton  gin. 
When  the  cotton  gin  was  invented,  which  was  quite  a  bit  before  my 
time  and  your  time,  I  understand  there  was  a  great  hue  and  cry 
that  it  would  be  the  ruination  of  this  country.  To  the  contrary  it 
was  a  boon  to  those  employed  in  the  cotton  industry.  I  think  that 
as  far  as  the  United  States 

Mr.  Parsons  (interposing).  But  if  they  were  still  picking  cotton 
bv  hand  in  the  South,  there  would  not  be  the  lack  of  employment  of 
those  who  were  picking  cotton  in  the  South. 

Mr.  Rauch.  If  we  did  not  have  competition  from  other  lands  and 
other  places  that  would  be  possible,  but  competition  in  business  and 
in  our  foreign  trade,  I  think,  will  require  that  we  make  the  best  use 
of  any  facilities  that  we  might  be  able  to  develop  in  spite  of  the 
unemployment. 

PRODUCTION  AND  UNEMPLOYMENT  BOTH  PROBLEMS 

I  think  we  have  two  problems.  I  think  we  have  one  problem  in 
studying  the  advancement  in  our  production  methods.     I  think  we 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3637 

have  another  problem  of  unemployment.  I  am  not  at  all  sure  that 
we  will  cure  the  first  one  by  arriving  at  an  improper  solution  of  the 
second,  or  vice  versa. 

Mr.  Parsons,  I  know  we  cannot  stop  progress.  Ever  since  the 
dawn  of  history  we  have  been  improving  conditions  with  new  dis- 
coveries, with  new  inventions  that  the  genius  of  man's  mind  has 
created,  and  we  cannot  any  more  stop  that  than  we  can  stop  progress 
in  other  directions,  but  some  way  and  some  means  must  be  devised 
to  take  care  of  human  individuals. 

Mr.  Rauch.  I  agree  with  you. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Those  who  are  displaced. 

Mr.  Rauch.  I  agree  with  you  heartily. 

Mr.  Parsons.  And  we  cannot  continue  to  keep  the  Government, 
billions  of  dollars  in  debt,  on  and  on,  continuously,  because  there  must 
be  a  stop  to  that  some  time. 

Mr.  Rauch.  I  think  we  are  in  agreement  on  that. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Or  else  we  must  go  on  in  some  endless  economy  under 
which  we  may  never  expect  to  pay  the  bill. 

Do  you  have  any  comment  with  reference  to  the  future  of  our 
indebtedness  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  No;  that  is  a  little  bit  outside  of  my  province. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Have  you  any  questions? 

]Mr.  Curtis.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you  thought  we 
would  always  have  to  have  a  work  program  i 

Mr.  Rauch.  I  would  not  want  to  be  on  record  as  having  said  we 
will  always  have  a  work  program.  I  say  that  for  some  time  to  come 
it  will  be  necessary  to  have  some  type  of  relief  program,  and  I 
heartily  believe  a  work  program  is  the  finest  type  of  progi-am  that 
we  can  get  to  meet  that  situation. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  long  do  you  mean  by  "some  time  to  come"  I 

Mr.  Rauch.  Well,  that  depends.  We  have  not  ceased  to  need  it  at 
this  time,  according  to  the  best  estimates  of  unemployment;  and  in 
the  predictions  that  are  made  for  the  next  2  years  I  fail  to  see  that 
we  will  not  need  a  work  program.  And  as  I  said  before,  if  world 
conditions  change  so  that  we  have  people  thrown  out  of  emplovment, 
and  unless  there  is  a  gi-eater  demand  and  greater  need  than  our 
normal  requirements,  unless  conditions  change  radically,  we  will  need 
a  work  program  more  than  ever  before. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Well,  do  you  think  that  America  is  through  as  a  people 
who  are  self-supporting? 

growing  pains  and  new  jobs 

Mr.  Rauch.  Absolutely  not.  I,  think  that  America  is  certainly 
not  any  more  than  at  the  beginning  of  its  existence ;  but  I  think  tha^t 
is  one  of  the  things  that  we  find  in  growth ;  that  is  one  of  the  prob- 
lems that  we  have  to  contend  with. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Growing  pains. 

Mr.  Rauch.  Growing  pains;  yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Well  now,  how  many  people  have  become  unemployed 
because  of  the  advance  of  machinery,  in  the  last  20  years? 


OQ^g  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Kauch.  I  am  not  prepared  to  testify  to  that  right  offhand. 
There  has  been  a  considerable  number, 

Mr.  Curtis.  If  we  stop  to  consider  the  number  of  people  employed, 
who  have  found  new  employment  in  the  last  20  years,  for  instance 
in  the  radio  industry,  including  its  manufacture  and  wholesale  and 
retail,  servicing,  shipment,  and  so  forth ;  the  broadcasting,  with  all 
its  ramifications;  with  television;  and  tlien  go  on  into  the  gasoline 
business  with  all  the  ramifications  as  is  indicated  for  the  radio;  air 
conditioning;  the  refrigerator,  to  say  nothing  at  all  about  the  auto- 
mobile industry;  the  manufacture,  repair,  and  servicing,  the  whole- 
saling and  retailing;  storage,  transportation  and  insurance, 
adjusting  claims  on  the  insurance;  financing,  and  so  on,  together  with 
a  like  development  of  aviation  all  during  these  years. 

During  all  these  hearings  I  have  been  looking  for  someone  or 
some  committee  or  some  foundation  which  has  arrived  at  an  answer 
as  to  what  the  machines  have  done  to  employment;  in  other  words, 
if  you  would  put  down  on  one  side  of  the  book  every  job  taken 
away  by  machines  and  on  the  other  side  of  the  ledger  what  jobs 
have  been  supplied  by  machines,  and  find  out  the  answer. 

Now  they  may  be  right  that  machines  are  displacing  labor.  No 
doubt  they  may  have  here  and  there,  but  so  far  I  cannot  find  any- 
thing but  guesses  and  prejudice. 

Mr.  Rauch.  Do  not  overlook  the  fact  that  individual  produc- 
tivity has  perceptibly  increased,  unquestionably  increased  in  the  last 
10  years. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Has  not  consumption  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  I  am  not  so  familiar  with  consumption  figures. 

Mr.  CuETis.  But  do  you  not  believe  that  every  individual  buys 
and  uses  a  lot  more  than  his  grandparents? 

Mr.  Rauch.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Many  times  more. 

Mr.  Rauch.  Yes,^sir;  in  that  long  a  period  of  time,  yes;  but  one 
important  factor  which  must  not  be  overlooked  is  the  increased 
labor  supply  each  year. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  that  is  due  to  boys  leaving  the  farm. 

Mr.  Rauch.  Not  necessarily,  but  there  are  fewer— let  us  put  it 
this  way — there  are  fewer  infants  relatively  to  the  total  population 
today  than  there  were  10  years  ago,  and  a  greater  number  of  people 
within  the  age  group  who  are  young  than  there  were  10  years  ago 
in  relation  to  the  total  population.  That  has  resulted  in  the  last  10 
years  in  increasing  the  labor  supply;  the  net  increase  in  labor  sup- 
ply is  in  excess  of  5,000,000  persons.  There  have  been  various  esti- 
mates, and  the  smallest  estimate  I  have  seen  is  5,000,000  people. 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  we  have  had  a  comparative  increase  all  down 
through  the  years,  especially  in  towns  and  cities, 

Mr.  Rauch.  No. 

Mr.  Parsons.  In  proportion  to  the  jobs  available  at  that  tune. 

Mr.  Rauch,  No;  I  think  not. 

IVIr.  Curtis.  Through  immigration  did  we  not  have  ? 

^Ir.  Rauch.  Through  immigration 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3639 

Mr.  Parsons.  We  also  had  the  old  frontiers  which  we  do  not 
have  now. 

Mr.  Rauch.  The  old  frontiers? 

Mr.  Parsons.  Yes;  where  people  could  go. 

NEW   FRONTIERS   IN    INDUSTRY 

Mr.  Rauch.  The  old  frontier  was  a  very  important  factor  in  our 
American  way  of  life,  and  we  have  no  frontiers,  as  we  were  accus- 
tomed to  thinking  of  frontiers.  We  still  have  frontiers,  frontiers 
aplenty,  but  we  cannot  move  out  and  get  a  section  of  land,  anywhere 
from  a  section  to  several  sections  of  land,  for  settling  on  it  now. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Our  new  frontiers  are  in  new  industry,  new"  auto- 
mobiles, and  things  of  that  sort. 

Mr.  Rauch.  Yes. 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  they  do  not  afford  the  kind  of  opportunity 
upon  which  to  establish  a  home  and  rear  a  family  and  make  a  living 
though  family-unit  production  as  we  did  have  in  the  century  before. 

Mr.  Rauch.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Parsons.  AVhen  we  had  frontiers  to  move  into. 

Mr.  Rauch.  Yes. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Is  not  that  pretty  much  the  answer  to  a  large  part 
of  the  problem  now? 

Mr.  Rauch.  That  is  the  answer,  pretty  much.  And  that  provides 
thought  also  for  our  national  resources.  As  long  as  we  had  wide 
open  frontiers,  where  people  who  felt  they  wanted  to  make  a  better 
living  than  they  were  then  making  for  themselves  and  their  family, 
they  could  settle  on  the  frontiers  and  use  a  part  of  the  great  natural 
resources  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Parsons.  I  am  very  sorry  about  one  thing,  that  in  every  one 
of  these  hearings  I  go  off  at  a  tangent,  and  I  find  I  get  farther  afield, 
so  I  am  not  going  to  ask  you  any  more  questions  with  reference  to 
that,  although  I  enjoy  having  the  matter  discussed  and  getting  new 
ideas  on  it;  but  it  takes  too  much  time  to  develop  it. 
'  Any  further  questions? 

Mr.  Curtis.  In  reference  to  W.  P.  A.  projects:  Would  the  W.  P.  A. 
welcome  it  if  in  the  report  of  this  committee  we  could  suggest 
certain  projects  with  a  long  range  of  time  involving  the  stabilization 
of  the  population? 

Mr.  Rauch.  Well  that  is  a  pretty  big  proposal,  but  I  will  assure 
you  that  we  will  be  only  too  happy  to  consider  any  project  that 
will  be  of  public  usefulness,  that  will  be  of  use  in  solving  this 
problem. 

W.  p.  A.  FOR  USEFUL  PUBLIC  PROJECTS 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  I  correctly  understand  that  the  purpose  of 
work  projects  is  to  give  to  the  needy  employables,  work  on  useful 
projects? 

Mr.  Rauch.  Useful  public  projects. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Useful  public  projects. 

Mr.  Rauch.  Yes. 


3640 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Mr.  Spakkman.  Yes,  that  is  the  purpose  rather  than  to  get  a 
dollar  of  mvestment  for  every  dollar  expended  on  the  project. 

Mr.  Rauch.  That  is  the  primary  object.  The  secondary  is  almost 
as  important,  and  of  course  it  is  secondary,  but  it  is  important  to 
get  as  much  as  we  can  for  every  dollar  expended  under  the  primary 
objective. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  A  couple  of  weeks  ago  I  was  down  in  my  district 
and  I  attended  a  joint  meeting  of  the  county  board,  a  representative 
of  the  city  board,  the  area  manager,  or  director  of  the  W.  P.  A., 
with  the  engineer  of  the  State,  project  director,  or  whatever  his 
title  was,  and  they  were  discussing  the  W.  P.  A.  program  in  that 
area.  I  was  very  much  surprised  to  hear  the  State  man  say  that 
it  was  their  purpose  to  get  a  dollar's  worth  of  investment  out  of 
every  dollar  spent,  and  that  on  the  current  projects  that  meant  that 
if  they  could  get  more  by  the  use  of  machinery  than  by  the  use  of 
men,  that  machinery  had  to  be  used. 

Now  somehow,  that  seemed  to  me,  was  defeating  the  primary 
pui-pose  of  the  W.  P.  A. 

Mr.  Rauch.  The  primary  objective  of  the  W.  P.  A.,  as  you  stated, 
and  I  will  state  again,  is  to  provide  useful  employment  for  persons 
who  are  unemployed,  and  who  are  destitute  because  they  are  un- 
employed— who  are  employable— on  useful  public  projects.  Now 
that  is  the  primary  objective. 

We  are  faced,  where  it  is  necessary,  however,  with  prosecuting  the 
work  with  the  people  whom  we  employ,  in  as  efficient  a  manner  as 
we  can  consistent  with  the  primary  objective  of  the  program.  Do 
I  make  myself  clear?  In  other  words,  in  achieving  the  primai-y 
objective  we  want  to  operate  the  project  as  efficiently  as  we  can. 
To  put  it  this  way,  instead  of  having  a  thousand  men  use  a  few 
picks  and  shovels  that  would  result  in  moving  earth  at  4  or  5 
dollars  a  yard,  if  we  can  use  some  trucks  and  maybe  a  gasoline 
shovel  and  move  it  for  a  dollar  a  yard  and  still  provide  work  on 
other  projects  for  the  number  of  workei^  who  require  work,  I  think 
that  it  is  encumbent  on  the  W.  P.  A.  to  pursue  the  second  method 
of  operation. 

MACHINERY  DEFEATS  W.  P.  A.  PURPOSE 

Mr.  Sparkman.  But  if  the  use  of  that  machinery  throws  men 
out  of  work  it  seems  to  me  to  be  defeating  the  purpose  of  the 
W.  P.  A. 

Mr.  Rauch.  Yes,  if  it  is  throwing  men  out  of  work. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  other  words,  it  seems  to  me  that  the  efficiency 
motive  can  very  easily  be  overdone. 

Mr.  Rauch.  That  is  true.  If  we  go  into  a  job  of  building  highways 
and  we  do  it  by  the  use  of  the  maximum  of  machinery  and  we  are  not 
able  because  of  that  to  employ  the  number  of  needy  people  whom 
Ave  are  expected  to  employ,  I  will  agree  with  you.  But  we  must  do 
the  job  with  as  much  efficiency  as  we  can  consistent  with  the  primary 
objective ;  and  I  think  it  is  necessary  for  us  to  do  it  that  way. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is  all. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3641 

Mr.  Parsons.  Mr.  Ranch,  the  suggestion  has  been  made  by  one  of 
those  who  testified  here  that  a  fourth  category  might  be  set  up  in 
the  Social  Security  Board  for  Federal  grants-in-aid  to  States  to  assist 
the  relief  program  outside  the  W.  P.  A.  Do  you  have  any  comment 
to  make  about  that  suggestion  or  recommendation  ? 

Mr.  Rauch.  In  certain  categories  of  personal  employment,  I  think 
it  is  all  right ;  but  I  would  like  to  be  on  record  as  being  opposed  to  any 
direct  relief  for  employables,  no  matter  if  it  is  W.  P.  A.  or  Social 
Security. 

I  am  in  accord  with  direct  relief  or  assistance  to  the  States,  if  that  is 
the  policy  of  the  Federal  Government  for  unemployable  people  in 
certain  categories,  but  for  employable  people  I  think  the  answer  is  a 
works  program. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Thank  you  very  much.  Your  testimony  has  been  very 
interesting,  indeed,  and  we  thank  you  for  coming  here. 

Mr.  Rauch.  Thank  you.  With  your  permission,  I  will  submit  the 
following  additional  statement  for  the  record,  which  I  had  intended 
to  read. 

(The  statement  follows:) 

The  Relationship  of  the  Work  Projects  Administration  to  Migrant  Families 
Seeking  Work 

The  Work  Projects  Administration  is  very  conscious  of  the  migrant  problem. 
Our  experience  goes  back  to  1934  and  1935  when  the  Federal  Emergency  Relief 
Administration,  predecessor  to  the  Work  Projects  Administration,  had  a  special 
assistance  program  for  migrating  families.  Two  things  we  learned  out  of  that 
experience :  First,  if  you  want  to  help  the  family  which  has  lost  its  economic 
moorings,  do  not  encourage  it  to  go  on  the  road  until  it  has  something  definitely 
better  to  which  it  may  turn  in  the  way  of  employment;  and,  second,  generally 
if  need  of  workers  and  their  families  is  to  be  taken  care  of,  the  best  place  to 
care  for  such  need  is  in  the  home  area  and  not  on  the  road. 

It  is  beyond  the  province  of  the  Work  Projects  Administration  to  organize  the 
labor  market  so  that  workers  may  know  of  bona  fide  job  opportunities.  The 
State  employment  services  are  making  progress  in  that  direction.  However, 
the  Work  Projects  Administration  is  undoubtedly  the  largest  single  force  in 
prevention  of  a  more  serious  migration  problem  in  this  country  by  providing  work 
for  the  needy  unemployed  in  their  own  home  communities. 

MIGRANT  IN  NO  MAN'S  LAND 

The  value  of  this  treatment  is  obvious.  Unemployed  workers  who  go  on  a 
will-o'-the-wisp  search  for  work  frequently  find  none.  They  become  poverty 
stricken,  in  need  of  food,  shelter,  and  clothing.  They  have  lost  the  ordinary 
social  ties  in  the  community,  such  as  the  church,  friends,  clubs,  private-  and  pub- 
lic-welfare agencies,  through  which  they  may  receive  aid  and  assistance.  Worst 
of  all,  they  cannot  be  employed  on  the  works  program,  thereby  maintaining  their 
skills  and  work  habits  because  they  cannot  be  certified  to  the  program  under 
the  rigid  statutory  residence  requirements  in  many  States.  Local  welfare 
authorities  will,  by  and  large,  not  refer  needy  residents  to  the  Work  Projects  Ad- 
ministration for  certification  as  eligible  for  Work  Projects  Administration  em- 
ployment.   The  migratory  worker  is  thus  left  in  a  no  man's  land. 

It  should  not  be  necessary  for  me  to  mention  more  tlian  briefly  the  pro- 
visions of  the  law  under  which  the  Work  Projects  Administration  is  able  to 
give  work  to  needy  unemployed  i)ersons.  The  Emergency  Relief  Appropria- 
tion Act,  fiscal  year  1941,  requires  that  a  determination  as  to  the  need  of 
I)ersons  seeking  work  be  made  by  local  public  welfare  agencies.  Thus,  before 
the  Work  Projects  Administration  could  employ,  under  ordinary  circumstances, 
needy  migrants,  it  would  be  necessary  for  local  welfare  authorities  to  determine 


3642 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


their  need  and  advise  the  Work  Projects  Administration  accordingly.  Work 
Projects  Administration  regulations  require  that  persons  otherwise  eligible 
shall  not  be  refused  certification  for  employment  because  legal  settlement 
or  residence  has  not  been  established  within  the  State  or  a  political  subdivision 
thereof.  ,    .     , 

However,  many  welfare  authorities  cannot,  under  their  laws,  make  a  deter- 
mination that  migrants  are  in  need  because  of  stringent  residence  requirements. 
In  other  instances,  only  temporary  aid  can  be  given,  pending  the  return  of  the 
families  to  their  State  of  residence.  Even  if  the  Work  Projects  Adminis- 
tration should  make  a  determination  as  to  need  in  lieu  of  that  made  by  local 
welfare  authorities,  it  is  very  doubtful  that  communities  where  these  migrants 
congregate  are  prepared  to  sponsor  projects  for  such  persons.  Under  tlie  Relief 
Act  sponsors  are  required  to  contribute  25  percent  of  the  cost  of  projects  and 
many  communities  are  unable  and,  in  some  cases,  unwilling  to  take  on  such 
a  financial  burden. 

The  Work  Projects  Administration  has  felt  the  impact  in  recent  years  of 
three  different  groups  of  migrating  workers  and  their  families  In  search  of 
work.  The  first  of  these  is  the  group  which  is  always  on  the  move.  It  is 
literally  a  floating  labor  supply  and  has  its  roots  nowhere.  The  second  of 
these  consists  of  farm  families  who  have  left  the  farm  because  it  could  not 
provide  them  with  a  minimum  livelihood.  The  third  group  has  become  a 
problem  only  within  the  last  few  months.  It  is  the  group  which  is  migrating 
for  defense  jobs. 

FLOATING    POPULATION 

A  group  which  needs  the  consideration  of  this  committee  are  the  migrants 
who  have  always  been  on  the  move.  They  are  persons  who  move  with  the 
seasons  or  where  there  is  opportunity  for  temporary  employment — a  floating 
population,  many  of  them  work  only  long  enough  to  gain  passage  to  the  next 
town  or  to  the  next  seasonal  job.  In  predepression  years  there  was  a  need 
for  these  workers  in  all  seasonal  employment  fields.  Now  they  have  been 
replaced  in  large  numbers  by  the  newer  migratory  group  described  below  and 
present  a  serious  problem.  While  the  Work  Projects  Administration  program 
has  had  a  stabilizing  influence,  local  opposition  from  sponsors  of  work  projects 
and  from  residents  who  seek  work  but  cannot  find  it  make  it  impossible  for 
the  work  program  to  extend  any  widespread  assistance  in  helping  this  group 
to  settle  down  and  become  self-supporting. 

SHIFTING  RURAL   POPULATION 

A  significant  migration  has  been  the  shifting  of  a  rural  population  whose 
income  was  normally  derived  from  the  farm  or  from  farm  employment.  This 
includes  the  seasonal  migrants  following  the  harvests,  the  farmer  driven  from 
his  farm  by  drought  to  seek  a  living  elsewhere,  the  farm  hand  displaced  by 
machinery,  and  the  tenant  farmers  and  sharecroppers  who  for  various  reasons 
were  forced  off  the  land  or  were  unable  to  eke  out  an  existence  on  their 
meager  acreages.  Here,  again,  the  Work  Projects  Administration  has  been  a 
stabilizing  force  in  providing  project  employment  for  thousands  upon  thou- 
sands of  families  who  otherwise  would  be  forced  to  follow  those  other  thou- 
sands for  whom  there  has  as  yet  been  found  no  solution — either  of  home  or 
employment. 

MIGRATION  RESULTS  FROM   THE   DEFENSE  ACTIVITIES 

The  entire  migration  problem  has  been  recently  complicated  by  a  new  force 
which  makes  for  the  shifting  of  large  numbers  of  persons  in  search  of  work. 
To  date  increased  employment  due  to  the  defense  program  or  normal  industrial 
employment  has  not  caused  unskilled  labor  to  migrate  to  any  serious  extent. 
Yet  there  are  many  of  these  who,  unemployed,  hope  to  find  jobs  and  so  are 
on  the  move.  This  number  is  increasing.  However,  the  stabilizing  effect  of 
the  Work  Projects  Administration  program  tends  to  keep  them  employed  at 
home  and  available  for  private  or  other  public  employment. 

Skilled  and  semiskilled  labor,  on  the  other  hand,  has  in  most  instances 
found  a  ready  market  and,  without  exception,  the  State  Work  Projects  Admin- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3643 

istratious  report  both  influx  and  outflo%v  of  skilled  workers.  These  generally 
find  work  and  obtain  good  wages  and  therefore  present  no  problem  of  destitu- 
tion. However,  in  many  instances,  acute  housing  shortages  are  reported  with 
rents  skyrocketing  beyond  reason.  This  in  turn  is  creating  a  hardship  on 
impoverished  families  who  cannot  afford  increased  rents  and  are  forced  to 
move. 

This  skilled  and  semiskilled  labor  is  attracted  to  sites  where  Army  canton^ 
ments  are  under  construction  and  to  centers  of  armament  defense  industries. 
It  is  generally  believed  that  work  now  under  way  in  the  Army  cantonments 
will  be  of  limited  duration  only.  In  addition  to  the  skilled  and  semiskilled 
workers,  it  is  these  projects  that  have  attracted  unskilled  labor  also.  When 
the  cantonments  are  completed,  the  skilled  workers  will  have  earned  sufficient 
to  return  home  or  seek  work  elsewhere.  The  demand  for  skilled  labor  may  be 
expected  from  other  defense  activities. 

Of  the  semiskilled  and  unskilled,  both  those  who  found  work  and  earned 
small  wages  and  those  who  remained  only  hoping  to  find  work,  many  will 
remain  stranded,  a  problem  for  local  authorities  to  cope  with.  Families  and 
single  persons  have  flocked  there  by  the  thousands — on  foot,  in  cars  of  all 
kinds  and  descriptions,  or  by  bus  and  train,  with  or  without  cash  reserve. 
Many  of  these  camp  projects  are  located  near  small  centers  of  population  so 
that  proper  housing,  health,  and  sanitation  measures  are  lacking.  Increasingly 
stringent  residence  laws  complicate  the  problem  of  assistance,  as  well  as 
opposition  from  local  project  sponsors  to  contribute  toward  the  support  of  a 
population  which  may  remain  stranded  at  this  point. 

It  is  my  belief  that  the  Federal  agencies  should  begin  to  plan  and  to  operate 
now  for  the  groups  of  i)eople  who  are  migrating  and  who,  unless  preventive 
measures  are  taken,  will  migrate  and  accentuate  the  problem  which  is  already 
serious  enough.  It  is  further  my  belief  that  when  bona  fide  employment 
opportunities  can  be  found  for  members  of  these  groups,  they  should  be  aided 
and  assisted  to  obtain  such  employment.  That  alone  is  a  big  enough  problem 
for  governmental  agencies  to  undertake.  At  the  same  time  everything  pos- 
sible should  be  done  to  prevent  the  swelling  of  the  number  of  migrating 
workers.  This  can  best  be  done  by  extending  the  programs  of  Federal  agencies 
which  provide  assistance  or  public  work  of  useful  character  for  needy  families 
in  or  near  the  vicinity  of  their  homes. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MISS  DOROTHY  C.  KAHN,  NEW  YOEK,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Miss  Kahn,  will  you  give  the  reporter  your  full  name, 
address,  and  the  capacity  in  which  you  appear? 

Miss  Kahn.  Dorothy  C.  Kahn.  I  am  assistant  executive  secretary 
of  the  American  Association  of  Social  Workers,  130  East  Twenty- 
second  Street,  New  York. 

Mr,  Curtis.  Will  you  state  briefly  what  the  American  Association 
of  Social  Workers  is,  and  something  about  the  scope  of  its  activities? 

Miss  Kahn.  The  association  is  a  professional  organization  of  social 
workers  similar  to  that  of  a  medical  association  for  physicians,  or 
the  bar  association  in  the  field  of  law. 

We  represent  about  12,000  social  workers  throughout  the  United 
States,  who  meet  the  specific  qualifications  of  the  profession,  edu- 
cationally and  otherwise,  in  the  field. 

It  is  a  membership  organization  and  has  85  local  chapters  in 
various  large  urban  communities ;  some  State-wide  chapters  in  which 
our  work  of  organization  is  carried  on.  We  are  concerned  primarily 
with  the  promotion  of  obtaining  standards  of  performance  of  social 
work  activities  throughout  the  country,  the  development  of  better 
resources,  and  the  preparation  of  personnel  and  its  use  of  the  train- 
ing acquired  on  the  daily  jobs  of  the  members;  of  promoting  more 


3644 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


satisfactory  social  programs  to  meet  the  needs  of  the  people  whom 
our  members  serve  in  their  daily  task. 

That  is  a  very  brief  statement  of  our  function. 

Mr.  CuKTis.  It  is  a  voluntary  membership? 

Miss  Kahn.  It  is  a  voluntary  membership  organization  to  which 
persons  who  meet  our  membership  requirements  are  eligible. 

The  organization  is  about  20  years  old.  We  have  been  continu- 
ously active  in  the  promotion  of  social  legislation.  We  have  testified 
frequently  before  congressional  committees,  particularly  in  relation 
to  relief -work  programs,  and  social  security. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Does  your  membership  extend  into  all  the  States? 

Miss  Kahn.  Yes;  and  Territories. 

Mr.  Curtis.  If  you  will  please  direct  whatever  remarks  you  care 
to  make  to  the  committee,  together  with  any  recommendations  that 
you  may  have,  we  shall  be  glad  to  hear  you.  As  you  know,  the  par- 
ticular task  we  are  assigned  to  is  the  problem  relating  to  the  inter- 
state migration  of  destitute  persons.  Please  proceed  in  your  own 
way. 

Miss  Kahn.  I  hope  you  will  permit  me  to  be  very  informal,  be- 
cause our  notification  of  this  hearing  came  only  this  morning.  We 
happened  to  be  in  Washington.  So,  if  you  will  permit  us  to  do  so, 
we  will  file  a  more  formal  statement  later  on. 

(The  statement  referred  to  follows:) 

American  Association  of  Social  Workers, 

New  York,  N.  Y.,  December  13,  1940. 
Mr.  RoBiaiT  Lamb, 

Chief  Investigator,  Committee  to  Investigate  Interstate 
Migration  of  Destitute  Citizens, 

House  of  Representatives,  Washington,  D.  C. 
Dear  Mr.  Lamb:  Attached  is  a  statement  for  the  record  which  was  promised 
at  the  time  of  my  impromptu  testimony  before  the  committee  on  December  6. 
Sincerely  yours, 

Dorothy  C.  Kahn, 
Assistant  Executive  Secretanj. 

Statement  for  the  Record  of  the  CoMMiTTia:  on   Interstate  Migration   of 
Destitute  Citizens 

The  American  Association  is  organized  to  promote  and  develop  standards  of 
competent  practice  of  social  work.  It  is  concerned  not  only  with  the  training 
and  establishment  of  standards  of  competent  performance  but  more  widely 
with  the  interpretation  of  the  facts  of  social  work  to  the  public  to  the  end  that 
the  direct  experience  of  social  work  may  be  brought  to  bear  on  social  problems 
and  be  of  aid  to  the  administrative  agencies  organized  to  deal  with  these 
problems. 

The  association  includes  11,300  members  organized  into  85  local  and  State 
chapters.  Each  chapter  has  responsibility  for  study  and  obtaining  of  data  on 
subjects  such  as  the  material  with  which  this  testimony  is  concerned. 

The  American  Association  of  Social  Workers  believes  in  and  supports  the 
progressive  development  of  public  social  services.  Since  the  founding  of  this 
democracy,  such  services  have  been  recognized  as  a  proper  function  of  govern- 
ment. They  now  constitute  one  of  the  most  important  aspects  of  the  relation 
of  government  to  its  citizens  in  the  life  of  our  time. 

These  services  will  not  have  reached  a  desirable  level  of  operation  until 
practical  measures  have  been  adopted  which  assure  the  economic,  social,  and 
physical  well-being  of  every  person  in  the  American  Commonwealth.  The  ob- 
jective requires  the  leadership  and  resources  of  the  Federal  Government.  It 
is  tlie  responsibility  of  the  Federal  Government  either  to  provide  or  to  see  to  it 
that  the  services  needed  are  provided. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3645 

There  are  four  major  concerns  in  the  development  of  public  social  services: 
(1)  Coverage  and  tlie  degree  to  which  the  needs  of  the  people  are  met;  (2) 
program,  or  devices  and  methods  utilized  to  meet  these  needs;  (3)  administra- 
tion, to  carry  out  the  responsibility  accepted;  and  (4)  personnel,  the  final  in- 
strument through  which  the  purposes  and  designs  of  the  services  are  carried 
out. 

Throughout  the  last  decade  the  association  has  been  continuously  active  in 
expressing  its  concern  with  the  problems  resulting  from  widespread  unemploy- 
ment and  resultant  dependency.  In  December  1931  the  American  Association 
of  Social  Workers  set  up  a  commission  on  unemployment  to  study  the  extent 
of  the  problem  in  local  and  State  areas.  In  May  1932  and  again  in  December  of 
that  year,  members  of  the  American  Association  of  Social  Workers  appeared  as 
witnesses  before  the  Congressional  Subcommittee  on  Manufactures  concerned 
with  the  problem  of  unemployment  relief.  Throughout  the  following  years, 
with  the  development  of  the  Federal  Emergency  Relief  Administration, 
the  Civil  Works  Administration,  the  Civilian  Conservation  Corps,  the  Work 
Projects  Administration,  and  National  Youth  Administration,  each  step  in  the 
development  of  a  public-assistance  program  was  carefully  studied  and,  when- 
ever possible,  information  derived  from  direct  experience  of  its  members  has 
been  offered  for  the  use  of  Federal  and  State  authorities.  In  1935  the  Ameri- 
can Association  of  Social  Workers  played  a  part  in  the  committee  work  and 
in  the  hearings  which  preceded  the  passage  of  the  Social  Security  Act.  At 
each  point  in  the  development  of  the  public  program  the  specialized  experi- 
ence of  the  individual  social  workers  and  the  association  as  a  whole  has  been 
made  available  to  congressional  committees. 

The  National  Committee  on  Transients  and  Homeless  which  included  repre- 
sentatives from  sucli  national  agencies  as  American  Red  Cross,  National  Associa- 
tion of  Travelers  Aid  Societies,  Family  Welfare  Association  of  America,  etc., 
presented  material  at  a  congressional  hearing  on  relief  in  1933.  The  conten- 
tion of  witnesses  in  1933  was  that  the  special  problem  of  the  transient  and  un- 
settled State  resident  was  a  Federal  responsibility  and  the  needs  could  not  be 
met  without  the  financial  assistance  of  the  Federal  Government.  Largely  as  a 
result  of  this  the  Relief  Act  of  1933,  section  4C,  provided  for  the  possibility  of 
granting  aid  to  persons  who  had  no  legal  settlement  in  any  one  State  or  com- 
munity. Again  when  that  program  was  discontinued  in  September  1935,  the 
committee  expressed  in  various  ways  the  concern  which  was  felt  for  the  result- 
ing problem  of  provision  of  care  for  those  persons  in  need  who  were  not  gen- 
erally accepted  as  a  charge  on  local  or  State  funds. 

When  the  association  was  informed  of  the  field  hearings  of  the  Tolan  Com- 
mittee on  Interstate  Migration  of  Destitute  Citizens,  local  chapter  chainnen 
were  requested  to  testify  to  their  knowledge  of  the  migrant  problem  in  their 
areas.  In  most  of  the  regions  tlie  American  Association  of  Social  Workers' 
chapters  did  not  act  per  se  but  rather  were  represented  by  members  acting  in 
their  official  capacities  or  representing  their  agencies.  Such  additional  infor- 
mation as  the  local  chapter  could  provide  was  made  available  to  them.  For 
instance  in  New  York  the  welfare  council  report  and  in  Los  Angeles  the  Council 
of  Social  Agencies  studies  given  as  testimony  covered  the  field  of  information 
which  is  represented  by  the  interests  of  the  American  Association  of  Social 
Workers. 

The  American  Association  of  Social  Workers  considers  the  migration  of  both 
industrial  and  agricultural  workers  from  one  area  to  another  in  search  of 
work  as  a  natural  part  of  our  national  economy.  This  movement  in  search  of 
work  has  been  part  of  our  tradition  since  earliest  times.  It  seems  particularly 
important  at  this  time  when  workers  arg  needed  for  national  defense  work  that 
they  be  helped  rather  than  penalized  in  their  efforts  to  obtain  work.  There  is 
need  therefore  of  strengthening  the  use  of  the  public  employment  service  and 
increasing  the  availability  of  general  assistance  to  those  workers  whose  search 
for  work  has  not  met  with  immediate  success  in  the  new  locality. 

STUDY   OF   MAY    1940   BY  AMERICAN   ASSOCIATION    OF    SOCIAL    WORKERS    OF   TRENDS    IN 
THE   PUBLIC    SOCIAL    SE21VICES 

A  Study  made  by  chapters  of  the  American  Association  of  Social  Workers  on 
the  changes  in  the  public  social  services  in  their  areas  indicate  an  increasing 
problem  in  the  insufficient  provisions  made  for  relief  for  that  individual  who 


3646 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


has  left  his  original  place  of  residence  and  can  no  longer  maintain  himself 
independently.  Part  of  the  problem  is  closely  tied  with  the  inadequacy  of 
general  relief.  This  inadequacy  of  general  relief  is  heightened  for  the  non- 
resident by  the  fact  that  the  major  responsibility  of  general  relief  is  a  matter 
of  local  financing. 

Too  often  with  this  as  a  basis,  the  feeling  of  the  local  group  is  similar  to  that 
reported  of  Indiana:  "Transients  and  nonresidents  aided  'under  protest.'  The 
community  attitude  is  against  aiding  these  because  of  the  'dire  need'  of  the 
other  persons  resident  of  the  community." 

While  this  responsibility  for  general  relief  is  being  one  primarily  of  the  local 
or  county  group  is  not  new,  there  seems  a  growing  tendency  to  shift  responsi- 
bility increasingly  in  that  direction.  This  may  take  the  form  of  curtailment  of 
State  funds  in  States  which  supply  all  or  part  of  the  funds  for  general  relief, 
of  levying  sales  taxes  for  relief  purposes,  or  of  making  stricter  prohibitions 
on  the  use  of  State  funds  for  nonresidents,  aliens,  and  transients.  Penn.syl- 
vania,  for  example,  has  denied  relief  by  State  legislation  to  any  but  citizens 
and  to  aliens  who  declared  their  intention  of  becoming  citizens  prior  to  Janu- 
uary  1,  1940.  Colorado,  Ohio,  California,  Kansas,  Illinois,  and  Indiana  are 
among  the  States  which  have  made  more  stringent  residence  requirements. 

North  Carolina,  for  instance,  reports  there  is  no  provision  at  all  for  care 
of  nonresidents  except  through  the  private  agencies.  Rockford,  111.,  says  the 
policy  there  is  that  "persons  lacking  legal  residence  are  not  chargeable  to  any 
public  agency.  Transients  are  offered  a  night's  shelter  in  jail  and  a  gallon 
of  gas  to  get  out  of  town.  There  is  no  organized  service  for  them."  From 
Ohio  comes  the  report,  "Transients  are  given  'a  meal,  a  bed,  and  the  order  to 
get  moving.' "  Iowa  indicates  that  "transients  and  nonresidents  are  given 
emergency  care." 

Limited  by  State  action  and  by  lack  of  taxable  resources,  communities  gen- 
erally seem  to  be  reducing  the  amount  of  aid  given  to  employable  persons  and 
to  nonresidents,  transients,  and  aliens.  Often  underlying  the  attitude  toward 
able-bodied  persons  seeking  work  is  an  assumption  that  they  are  the  responsi- 
bility of  the  Federal  Government.  The  facts,  however,  are  that  only  a  portion 
of  this  group  are  given  Work  Projects  Administration  employment  in  any 
community.    This  varies  from  as  low  as  20  percent  to  as  high  as  90  percent. 

Denial  of  aid  to  aliens,  nonresidents,  and  transients  is  often  a  matter  of 
official  policy  or  legal  requirement.  On  the  other  hand,  pronounced  limitation 
or  denial  of  aid  to  persons  able  to  work  is  more  often  a  matter  of  practice. 
For  instance  in  Missouri,  able-bodied  persons  receive  relief  only  in  emergencies 
and  funds  for  this  purpose  are  almost  negligible.  In  Columbus  able-bodied 
persons  were  cut  off  relief  May  1. 

It  is  not  infrequent  practice  to  make  smaller  allowances  for  the  able-bodied 
and  other  groups  under  disfavor  or  to  eliminate  all  but  major  items  from 
their  allowances.  However,  this  seems  less  significant  than  the  increasing 
tendency  to  cut  the  general  level  of  allowances.  In  the  majority  of  com- 
munities reporting,  only  a  proportion  of  a  minimum  family  budget  is  covered  in 
the  allowance. 

In  California  the  standard  budget  is  reported  to  be  44  percent  under  the 
minimum  subsistence  level  for  a  family  of  five.  Drastic  appropriation  cuts 
by  the  legislature  in  recent  months  made  it  necessary  to  reduce  even  this  low 
budget  30  to  50  percent.  In  South  Carolina  the  allowance  was  limited  for  a 
period  by  an  order  to  the  State  Department  to  two-thirds.  Douglas  County, 
Nebr.,  reported  an  allowance  of  22  cents  per  day  per  family  in  December  1939 
for  all  needs. 

The  reports  warrant  the  following  conclusions:  In  the  majority  of  communi- 
ties funds  for  general  relief  are  inadequate  to  meet  needs;  certain  groups, 
particularly  nonresidents,  aliens,  and  transients,  as  well  as  the  so-called 
employables,  are  consistently  neglected  or  discriminated  against;  relief  allow- 
ances in  all  but  a  few  States  are  far  below  a  minimum  subsistence  level ; 
in  many  communities  there  is  acute  suffering  on  the  part  of  a  large  proportion 
of  the  needy  unemployed  and  dependent.  These  reports,  coming  from  more 
than  half  of  the  States,  give  convincing  evidence  that  administration  of  relief 
by  States  and  localities  without  Federal  assistance  leads  each  to  evade  re- 
sponsibilities which  belong  to  all  three. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3647 

NATIO^-AL   DEFENSE   PEOBLEM    AS   IT   RELATES   TO   THE   MIGRANT 

The  problem  of  the  nonresident  out  of  work  applying  for  relief  has  increased 
with  the  development  of  industries  or  cantonments  in  localities  which  do  not 
have  within  local  range  the  number  of  men  needed  for  the  work.  Sometimes 
immigration  of  men  into  new  territories  for  work  has  been  controlled  through 
exclusive  use  of  the  United  States  Employment  Service.  However,  even  the 
most  guarded  announcements  of  jobs  do  not  prevent  the  rumors  of  jobs  spread- 
ing, so  that  more  persons  come  to  apply  for  work  than  there  are  jobs  available. 
If  the  employer  issues  a  general  request  for  workers  the  number  applying  may 
be  10  or  15  times  the  number  of  jobs.  Many  of  these  rejected  applicants  have 
no  way  of  returning  to  their  place  of  original  residence  and  the  men  and  their 
families  are  stranded.  Local  facilities  for  relief  are  not  adequate  to  carry  this 
tremendously  increased  burden  even  if  the  local  commissioners  were  willing  to 
feel  this  responsibility  as  a  logical  charge  on  them. 

Added  to  this  problem  of  those  who  are  in  need  because  of  failure  to  get 
employment  are  those  workers  stranded  by  a  lay-oft  after  a  brief  period  of 
employment.  Many  of  the  men  thus  laid  off  will  not  have  worked  a  sufficient 
period  of  time  to  be  eligible  for  unemployment  insurance  benefits.  They,  too, 
may  be  stranded  and  may  have  lost  residence  in  their  own  State  through  restric- 
tions which  involve  loss  of  settlement  after  a  limited  period  of  absence  from  the 
State.  Thus  they  cannot  receive  general  relief  even  if  they  could  return  to 
their  original  State  of  settlement  and  will,  as  indicated  from  evidence  above, 
be  unable  to  receive  help  in  the  community  in  which  they  have  just  had 
employment. 

Other  problems  for  the  workers  seeking  or  obtaining  employment  in  these  new 
industries  are  those  of  housing  and  health.  Frequently  the  number  of  em- 
ployees has  risen  far  more  rapidly  than  the  housing  accommodations  available, 
or  with  the  greater  pressure  of  need  for  housing  rent  costs  become  excessive. 
Sanitation  facilities  are  often  on  a  very  inadequate  level  and  all  the  problems 
of  the  migrant  camps  gi'Own  familiar  in  the  farming  areas  are  repeated. 
Hospital  facilities  too  are  often  not  developed  at  a  rate  to  meet  the  increased 
pressure  for  care.  Educational  facilities  organized  to  meet  the  normal  require- 
ment of  the  community  are  not  always  flexible  enough  to  meet  the  greatly 
increased  load. 

RECOMMENDATIONS 

Attached  is  the  platform  of  the  American  Association  of  Social  Workers  on 
the  public  social  services  stating  principles  which  if  enacted  into  law  would 
make  provision  for  needy  migrants. 

Amekioan  Association  of  Social  Workees'  Position  on  Public  Social  Se3ivices — 
Resolution  Passed  at  Delegate  Conferen*ce,  Grand  Rapids,  May  24,  1940 

[Reprinted  from  the  Compass,  June-July  1940] 

platfobm  on  public  social  services 

The  American  Association  of  Social  Workers  believes  in  and  supports  the 
progressive  development  of  public  social  services.  Since  the  founding  of  this 
democracy,  such  services  have  been  recognized  as  a  proper  function  of  govern- 
ment. They  now  constitute  one  of  the  most  important  aspects  of  the  relation 
of  government  to  its  citizens  in  the  life  of  our  time. 

These  services  will  not  have  reached  a  desirable  level  of  operation  until 
practical  measures  have  been  adopted  which  assure  the  economic,  social,  and 
physical  well-being  of  every  person  in  the  American  commonwealth.  This 
objective  requires  the  leadership  and  resources  of  the  Federal  Government.  It 
is  the  responsibility  of  the  Federal  Government  either  to  provide  or  to  see  to 
it  that  the  services  needed  are  provided. 

There  are  four  major  concerns  in  the  development  of  public  social  services — 
(1)  coverage  and  the  degree  to  which  the  needs  of  the  people  are  met:  (2) 
program — or  devices  and  methods  utilized  to  meet  these  needs;  (3)  administra- 
tion— to  carry  out  the  responsibility  accepted,  and  (4)  personnel — the  final 
instrument  through  which  the  purposes  and  designs  of  the  services  are  carried 
out.  On  each  of  these  concerns  social  work  experience  leads  the  association 
to  support  the  propositions  there  outlined. 


gg^g  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

PRINCIPLES 

I.  Coverage. — All  persons  whose  resources  fall  below  a  level  sufficient  to 
maintain  them  and  their  families  in  health,  decency,  and  socially  acceptable 
activity  are  a  proper  charge  upon  public  resources. 

The  ultimate  social  cost  of  poverty,  ill  health,  and  idleness  are  bound  to  be 
greater  than  the  immediate  cost  of  prevention  and  care. 

II.  Program. — ^Work:  Work  under  wholesome  conditions  and  at  wages  suffi- 
cient to  assure  maintenance  for  the  worker  and  his  normal  dependents  should  be 
available  to  all  who  are  not  disabled. 

To  the  degree  that  private  industry  cannot  provide  such  opportunities,  gov- 
ernment should  provide  them. 

Work  under  public  auspices  should  be  provided  to  employ  as  many  persons 
as  can  be  absorbed  in  socially  useful  projects,  which  utilize  the  skills  and 
abilities  of  unemployed  persons.  Such  employment  should  be  available  to  an 
unemployed  person  for  such  periods  of  time  as  appropriate  work  in  private 
enterprise  is  unavailable  to  him.  Wholesome  conditions  and  protections  should 
be  assured  for  workers  on  public  projects.  Payment  for  work  done  on  public 
projects  should  be  the  union  scale  of  wages,  where  such  scales  have  been  devel- 
oped, and  should  not  fall  below  the  minimum  standards  set  by  law  for  the 
protection  of  private  employment. 

Tests  of  individual  needs  other  than  evidence  of  lack  of  other  employment 
opportunity  are  inconsistent  with  the  concept  of  work  outlined  above. 

A  work  program  is  not  in  itself  a  training  program  and  should  be  distin- 
guished from  necessary  efforts  in  this  direction.  Therefore,  public  projects 
for  young  persons  and  those  occupationally  displaced  should  be  primarily 
directed  to  promote  training  or  retraining  in  suitable  occupations. 

Social  insurance:  Provisions  for  insurance  against  loss  of  income  because 
of  unemployment,  old  age,  injury  at  work,  and  loss  of  breadwinner  have  already 
been  found  to  be  feasible.  Such  provision  should  be  extended  to  cover  disability 
and  illness. 

The  insurance  system  should  provide  benefits  of  such  an  amount  and  for 
such  a  period  as  to  provide  reasonable  security  for  the  insured,  and  progres- 
sively to  reduce  the  need  for  other  measures. 

Coverage  in  existing  systems  should  be  extended  to  the  entire  working 
population. 

Assistance:  Public  assistance  should  be  available  to  meet  the  needs  of  all 
those  unable  in  other  ways  to  maintain  for  themselves  and  their  dependents 
an  adequate  standard  of  living.     Assistance  measures  should  be: 

1.  Broad  enough  in  scope  to  provide  for  all  types  of  needy  persons  regardless 
of  the  cause  of  their  need,  and  regardless  of  race,  creed,  political  affiliation, 
citizenship,  or  length  and  place  of  residence,  or  any  other  arbitrary  restriction 
on  eligibility.  Compulsive  features  of  laws  and  rulings  regarding  family  re- 
sponsibility should  be  abolished.^ 

2.  Adequate  to  enable  needy  persons  and  their  dependents  to  maintain  accept- 
able standards  of  living  and  to  prevent  physical  and  social  deterioration  and 
break-down  of  morale. 

3.  Granted  under  such  conditions  of  eligibility  and  calculated  in  such  a  way 
as  can  be  readily  imderstood  by  persons  in  need.  It  is  also  essential  that  these 
conditions  should  be  of  such  a  nature  as  to  appeal  to  a  sense  of  fairness  on 
the  part  of  applicants  for  assistance,  and  thus  engage  them  in  responsible 
participation  in  the  process  of  determining  eligibility. 

4.  Designed  to  conserve  the  personal  integrity  and  dignity  of  the  persons  in 
need  and  to  assist  them  to  return  to  self-maintenance  wherever  possible. 
Assistance  rendered  in  form  other  than  the  normal  medium  of  exchange  violates 
this  principle. 

Employment  service:  Employment  service  under  public  auspices  is  essential 
for  the  guidance  and  distribution  of  the  labor  supply  in  relation  to  the  require- 
ments of  the  labor  market.  Such  service,  available  on  a  Nation-wide  basis, 
is  necessary  to  aid  in  providing  data  on  the  extent  of  available  work  at  any 
given  time.  It  is  a  vital  link  not  only  between  employment  opportunities  and 
the  need  for  work,  but  also  between  this  and  the  various  other  programs  of 
government.     Unless  the  availability  of  employment  openings  nnd  the  capaci- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3649 

ties  of  persons  seeking  work  are  continuously  and  competently  related  to  one 
another,  work  will  be  denied  to  persons  who  could  be  effectively  employed, 
and  assistance  or  insurance  granted  unnecessarily. 

Development  of  adequate  employment  data  and  current  inventories  of  occu- 
pational shortage  is  necessary  for  the  promotion  of  effective  employment  service 
and  also  for  the  guidance  of  persons  who  have  been  occupationally  displaced 
and  young  persons  seeking  a  vocation. 

Health  service:^  Government  should  provide  or  guarantee  that  adequate 
medical  care  and  public-health  services  should  not  be  denied  to  any  person 
because  of  inability  to  pay. 

Housing :  Government  should  be  responsible  for  providing  or  guaranteeing  an 
adequate  supply  of  safe,  decent,  low-rental  housing  for  all  groups  who  cannot 
otherwise  be  provided  with  adequate  shelter. 

III.  Administration  and  organization. — In  order  to  carry  out  the  foregoing 
program  a  coordinated  administrative  structure  is  essential  in  Federal,  State, 
and  local  units  of  government.  Also  essential  is  effective  cooperation  between 
these  units,  and  between  Federal,  State,  and  local  governments.  It  is  impos- 
sible to  meet  the  needs  of  people  in  a  nation  where  these  needs  vary  from 
place  to  place,  often  in  inverse  ratio  to  local  resources,  without  the  leadership 
of  the  Federal  Government. 

Federal  resources,  administrative  and  financial,  must  be  utilized  in  appro- 
priate measure  to  supplement  those  of  State  and  local  governments.  Effective 
administration  therefore  involves: 

(a)   Federal  aid  to  equalize  the  resources  of  State  and  local  governments. 

(6)  The  establishment  by  the  Federal  Government,  in  cooperation  with  State 
and  local  governments,  of  minimum  standards  of  operation  and  service. 

(c)  A  program  so  organized  that  at  all  times  the  various  parts  of  the  pro- 
gram should  so  fit  together  that  lack  of  coverage  by  one  program  at  any  given 
time  should  be  fully  compensated  for  by  others,  recognizing  that  extension  of 
employment  opportunity  is  the  first  charge  of  our  social  organization,  and  that 
other  programs  require  progressive  development  in  this  order— insurance,  public 
work,  and  last  assistance,  and  other  measures  of  relief. 

id)  Continuous  research  by  appropriate  government  agencies  as  essential 
to  sound  planning. 

(e)  The  recognition  that  financing  necessary  social  services  is  costly,  but 
that  the  absence  of  such  services  is  more  costly,  not  only  in  terms  of  money, 
but  in  human  resources  on  which  the  money  economy  rests.  Financing  should 
be  such  as  to  improve  the  total  economic  situation.  '  Methods  should  be  based 
on  the  same  principles  as  the  program  itself,  so  that  costs  will  rest  where  they 
can  best  be  borne. 

IV.  Personnel.— ThQ  public  interest  demands  that  competent  service  be  assured 
in  the  public  social  services  in  order  that  public  funds  shall  be  administered 
humanely,  economically,  and  effectively.  Such  service  can  be  assured  only 
through  the  recruitment,  selection,  and  tenure  of  the  best-equipped  personnel 
in  relation  to  the  specific  nature  of  each  type  of  position.  Professional  func- 
tions should  be  performed  by  professionally  qualified  persons.  A  well-adminis- 
tered merit  system  offers  the  only  assurance  of  such  personnel  in  the  public 
service. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MISS  DOEOTHY  C.  KAHN— Resumed 

Miss  Kahn.  Your  committee  has  already  received  some  recom- 
mendations from  lis,  I  believe,  in  the  local' hearings  that  you  held 
in  the  various  communities  throughout  the  country.  Some  of  our 
local  chapter  representatives  have  already  testified  and  filed  some 
data  with  you. 

We  sent  you  last  July  some  abstracts  from  a  rather  impressionistic 
report  that  we  had  made  on  relief  conditions  throughout  the  United 
States.  I  think  the  thing  we  would  probably  like  to  stress  with  this 
committee  is  not  any  further  accumulation  of  factual  data,  because 
I  am  sure  you  already  have  more  than  we  could  possibly  give  you 
in  any  brief  space  of  testimony. 


gg^Q  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Our  point  of  view  about  this  problem  is  that  it  has  been  unfortu- 
nate that  migrancy  has  been  considered  as  if  it  were  an  evil  in  the 
United  States,  whereas  the  fact  of  the  matter  is,  I  think  we  are 
accumulating  continuous  evidence  to  this  effect,  that  one  of  the  essen- 
tial characteristics  of  American  life,  industry,  and  agriculture  is  that 
people  must  be  free  to  move  about  in  relation  to  the  need  for  their 
productive  activity.  If  we  cannot  move  the  jobs  to  the  people,  we 
have  to  move  the  people  to  the  jobs,  and  there  are  certainly  many 
parts  of  this  country  where  moving  the  jobs  to  the  people  would  be 
quite  impossible. 

MIGRATION  IS  NECESSARY 

Our  agricultural  problems  in  the  West  and  Southwest  and  perhaps 
even  in  some  other  parts  of  the  country  I  think  indicate  that  we 
could  not  possibly  pick  our  crops  without  the  movement  of  people 
for  brief  periods  of  time  into  the  areas  where  the  crops  are  growing 
and  where  picking  is  needed. 

As  we  are  now  managing  our  industrial  location  of  projects,  par- 
ticularly defense  projects,  it  would  be  manifestly  impossible  to  man 
these  projects  with  what  is  called  local  labor. 

We  have,  therefore,  evidence  of  rapidly  growing  communities  in 
and  around  not  only  industrial  centers,  but  cantonments,  serving 
the  needs  of  people  in  their  daily  activities  and  in  normal  occupa- 
tions. 

If  that  is  true,  then  it  seems  to  us  that  instead  of  placing  increas- 
ing restrictions  on  the  number  of  people,  instead  of  making  this 
normal  movement  of  people  a  hazard,  because  individuals  who  hap- 
pen to  move  and  happen  not  to  get  jobs  when  they  do  move  to  a  given 
place  are  then  found  to  be  without  resources,  that  there  is  some- 
thing essentially  illogical  in  our  failure  to  provide  for  people  for  the 
mere  reason  that  they  happen  not  to  be  residents  of  a  particular 
locality,  in  spite  of  the  fact  that  they  are  residents  of  the  United 
States  and  are  seeking  not  just  irresponsible  travel,  but  a  livelihood. 

AVe  could  give,  of  cour.^e,  any  number  of  illustrations  of  this  point. 
Our  staff  members  travel  from  time  to  time  to  our  various  chapters, 
and  I  have  just  returned  from  a  trip  to  the  west  coast  where  I  heard 
story  after  story  of  men  who  are  seeking  em])loyment  in  our  devel- 
oping aircraft  industries  in  and  around  San  Diego,  where  groups  of 
people  are  concentrating,  sometimes  brought  in  responsibly  by  the 
employing  companies,  and  sometimes  coming  on  their  own  initiative 
because  they  see  an  opportunity  for  work.  And,  if  perchance  an 
individual  fails  to  get  a  job  or  if  he  does  get  a  job  and  it  is  found 
he  cannot  meet  some  of  the  technical  requirements  such  as  the  physi- 
cal examination  or  the  rate  of  speed  required  in  some  of  these  highly 
productive  enterprises,  the  individual  is  laid  off  and  he  finds  him- 
self, through  no  real  fault  of  his  own.  in  a  position  where  he  has, 
perhaps,  divested  himself  of  his  last  bit  of  worldly  goods  in  order 
to  seek  a  job  in  a  new  community;  and  the  community  says  to  him, 
"We  cannot  do  anything  for  you.  We  cannot  even  send  you  back 
to  the  place  you  came  from,  and,  of  course,  we  cannot  give  you  relief 
because  you  are  a  nonresident." 


INTRODUCTION 

The  pictures  on  the  followmg  pages  offer  graphic  presentation  of 
the  lack  of  housing  facihties  avaihable  at  widely  scattered  defense 
construction  projects.  More  than  700,000  men  are  engaged  in  the 
construction  of  ships,  shipyards,  Army  cantonments,  and  on  other 
national  defense  projects.  Their  presence  in  small  communities  has 
overcrowded  the  housing  facilities  in  almost  every  case.  Reference 
is  made  to  the  testimony  of  Chester  C.  Davis,  Philip  Ryan,  Jane 
Hoey,  Ewan  Clague,  Dr.E.  R.  Coffee,  Boris  Shishkin,  J.  W.  Stude- 
baker,  and  Isador  Lubin  in  this  connection. 

These  photographs  were  furnished  by  the  Farm  Security  Adminis- 
tration from  its  files  and  were  accepted  for  the  record. 


Migrant  construction  worker's  family  from  Texas  sleeping  in  car.    They  cook  and  eat  in  a  lean-to.    Near 
Camp  Claiborne,  Alexandria,  La.     December  1940. 


[■'%iU  j'^l 


Texas  initirant  from  Quemado  Valley  lives  in  Mexican  house  near  Cornus  Christi,  Tex.     Trailer  in  back 
yard  belongs  to  another  construction  worker. 


SX-!'V£.4«W 


^hack  occupied  by  construction  w  ( 


Corpus  Christi,  Tex. 


p"^/' 


Ten  cousti-uction  workers  occupied  this  liu  sliacli  at  Camp  Livingston,  near  Alexandria,  La.    December 

1940. 


Construction  workers  at  Camp  Livingston,  La.,  who  sleep  in  their  car  and  "camp  out."    Botli  had  worked 
on  other  projects  before  going  to  Camp  Livingston. 


Men  eating  meal  supplied  by  the  Salvation  Army  at  Corpus  Christi,  Tex.    At  the  time  this  picture  was 
taken,  December  1940,  there  was  a  surplus  of  unskilled  labor  at  Corpus  Christi  and  many  were  stranded. 


vjr-**-  m 


School  under  construction  at  North  Beach  section  of  Corpus  Christi,  Tex.    The  surrounding  area  was 
formerly  a  tourist  camp,  but  now  is  occupied  by  defense  workers  and  their  families. 


Dollar-a-day  "apartments"  3  miles  from  new  Navy  air  base  at  Corpus  Christi,  Tex. 


^^         SEETHE      ^ 

De  lux£ 

APARTMENTS^ 

B£FORE-YOU-<;0-ELSEWHERE  M 
hh,  WATER  St. 


*^i^:JI 


Sign  advertising  t!ie  "De  Lu\e"  apartments  ^above")  torrent  to  construction  workers  near  Corpus  Ciiristi, 

Tex. 


^^%^>^. 


I  1  li  I    IhiiM    li  ii  I    I  Mill  Mm  1  mil  \  iirkers  and  Army  families  alike  at  Fort  Ben- 
-NU'tal  ^lieltLi;  leiu  f"i  >iii  a  uiuuih,  trailer  space  eosts  $2  a  week. 


^t^ 


"^^  ^^ewton  D.  Baker  Villaoe 


Defense  housing  project  of  the  Housing  Authorit.\  ct  <'iihiiiil 


-*s».^ 


tJ. 

i  ■ 

■ 


iSimi  ■ ' 


New  h(jusinu  under  eonslnietion  for  workmen  or  Anny  men  neiir  t'amp  Livinustou,  Alexandria,  La. 


Itinerant  preacher  from  South  Carolina  migrates  to  Camp  LivingEton,  near  Alexandria,  La. 


Camp  nf  iriiik 


ilicir  families  at  Corpus  Christi,  Te.\.     I 
air  base  now  under  construct mu. 


_.-^---- 

T 

Wr'  ^^  #. 

g^ 

^^HMjjjk  '     1 

Ir 

*^ 

Trailu  .nuit  huu  m:;  workmen  and  families  at  Corpus  Christi.  Tex. 
ing  a  naval  air  base. 


CurpL'iiicrs  ami  cuiist 


fkers  wailiji.k'outsiHc  Fluri.la  Slale  Kiiiiaoynic 
Starke,  Fla.,  to  apply  for  jobs. 


I 

-   £*r  /  /  /  //  n 

i 

-•1 

IH 


Job  applicants  at  Corpus  Christi  office  of  the  Texas  State  Employment  Service.    At  tliis  project  there  was 
a  surplus  of  unskilled  labor  and  a  shortage  of  skilled  workmen  in  December  1940. 


Concrete  worker  resting  while  wife  searches  through  want  ads  for  an  apartment.    Pacific  Beach,  Calif., 
December  1940.    Man  and  wife  live  in  a  tent  because  of  high  apartment  rentals. 


Migrant  workman  and  family  in  makeshift  living  quarters  at  Corpus  Christi,  Tex.    December  1940. 

3650-K 


Flophouse  of  some  37  beds,  occupied  by  workers  in  relays  at  50  cents  each.    Some  of  the  men  were  suffering 
with  influenza  when  the  picture  was  taken.    December  1940. 


Even  though  it  is  winter  in  this  northeastern  State,  this  couple  lives  in  a  shack  in  the  woods  near  a  con- 
struction project  because  of  a  housing  shortage  in  the  nearest  city. 


Construction  workers  drying  out  bedding  and  mattresses  from  their  trailer  after  a  week  of  heavy  rains  and 
winds.    Near  Camp  Livingston,  La.,  in  December  1940. 


^<^ 
^ 


#^ 


Lot-    .  1\,  HI    c    1  Inl    .dv 


liMlll,         \U    ^   ,,1    111   I       1     I 


:  ki  Is  lostaiiiant  and 
:ifi5(-M 


^ 


■aiier  (.■amp  <i(  (  upicil  l.%  ,  ,,nsti  u,  iK.ii  u  oikers  aii.l  soMiers'  lam 


Family  and  lioine  of  a  Louisiana  farmer  who  gave  up  farming  to  earn  more  money  at  construction  work  in  a 
new  Army  camp.    Much  of  the  man's  added  income  is  lost  because  of  higher  food  and  milk  prices. 


w,l'i 


W  Iff  Ufa  euliciclu  uuikur  oii  a  <lc.leii.^e  (UdjL'i'l  .li>iii.  ,.u;   l.laiik,  I.  uia.i.-  >i .  ,   1.^   iaiii  lli.-  j.n-re.liiii;  iiii;lil 
Pacific  Beach,  Calif.     Decemhei  H»4U. 


This  family  followed  construction  work  in  Texas.  Louisiana,  Illinois,  and  Arizona.  The  husband  and 
father,  a  carpenter,  said,  "I  know  this  work  spree  isn't  going  to  last  and  I'm  not  going  to  give  all  I  make 
to  the  landlords."    They  are  now  living  in  their  own  tent.    December  1940. 


This  construction  worker's  son  is  talcing  ginger  cookies  out  of  a  stove  that  cost  his  father  $135.    They  live 
in  a  shack  because  of  inability  to  find  better  housing  available  at  Corpus  Christi,  Tex. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3651 

Mr.  Parsons.  What  recommendations  does  your  association  have  to 
make  for  that  individual,  for  the  Federal  Government  and  the  States 
to  aid  that  individual  you  have  just  described?  That  is  the  big  prob- 
lem before  this  committee. 

Miss  Kahn.  Our  association  has  developed  from  year  to  year  a  plat- 
form, so  to  speak,  of  principles  that  we  would  like  to  see  incorporated 
into  developing  legislation  not  only  for  this  individual  but  for  other 
groups  in  need. 

ADVOCATES  FEDERAL  ASSISTANCE 

One  of  the  important  principles  that  we  are  advocting  is  that  assist- 
ance should  be  provided  by  the  Federal  Government  in  cooperation 
with  the  States  and  the  localities  to  meet  the  needs  of  people  irre- 
spective of  such  questions  as  race,  creed,  color,  citizenship,  or  residence, 
with  the  States  and  the  localities  to  meet  the  needs  of  people  irre- 
spective of  their  technical,  legal  residence  in  a  given  community. 

I  do  not  know  whether  that  particularly  answers  your  question, 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  pretty  much  along  the  general  lines  we  have 
had  from  a  number  of  witnesses  who  have  appeared  at  different  places 
and  especially  here.  We  are  a  little  short  of  time  this  afternoon.  You 
said  something  about  desiring  the  opportunity  of  filing  a  paper. 

Miss  Kahn.  We  shall  be  glad  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Persons.  We  shall  be  very  glad  to  have  you  do  so  if  it  is  in  by 
the  12th  of  December.  That  will  be  next  week.  I  would  like,  if  you 
will,  to  incorporate  all  of  your  recommendations  in  that  paper,  and 
the  committee  will  be  veiy  glad  to  have  them  before  us  and  as  part 
of  the  record. 

Miss  Kahn.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  Parsons.  If  there  are  no  further  questions,  thank  you  very 
much.  Miss  Kahn. 

The  next  witness  is  Benjamin  C.  Marsli,  executive  secretary  of  the 
People's  Lobby. 

TESTIMONY  OF  BENJAMIN  C.   MARSH,  EXECUTIVE  SECRETARY, 
THE  PEOPLE'S  LOBBY,  WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

^Ir.  Parsons.  State  your  name  and  address  and  whom  you  repre- 
sent. 

Mr.  Marsh.  Benjamin  C.  Marsh,  the  People's  Lobby.  I  am  the  exec- 
ntive  secretary. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  you  have  a  prepared  statement? 

Mr.  Marsh.  I  want  to  read  a  brief  statement  and  cite  some  figures 
and  make  some  further  comments,  if  I  may. 

(The  statement  is  as  follows:)  ^ 
STATEMENT  OF  BENJAMIN  C.  MARSH,  EXECUTIVE   SECRETARY,   THE 
PEOPLE'S  LOBBY 

There  are  certainly  half  a  million  farm  families,  and  probably  three-quarters 
of  a  milliou,  who  cannot  have  a  decent  existence  in  competitive  commercial  agri- 
culture, who  should  be  in  Government  or  cooperative  farms  under  careful  and 
tactful  supervision. 


260;{T0 — 41-— pt.  !V 


Qg^2  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Early  this  year  Dr.  W.  W.  Alexander,  Farm  Security  Administrator,  said :  "If 
we  were  to  attempt  to  do  a  complete  job,  the  Farm  Security  Administration 
should  extend  its  rehabilitation  program  to  virtually  all  of  the  1,700,000  farm 
families  which  have  an  average  annual  income  of  less  than  $500  a  year,  including 
all  I  lie  produce  they  grow^  for  themselves." 

He  added:  "America  cannot  affoi'd  to  plan  only  partial  solutions,  or  to  be  con- 
tent with  palliative  measures."  ^    ,  ^ 

The  increase  in  employment  for  armaments  will  not  largely  afCect  farm  surplus 
labor,  while  the  need  for  defiMise  practically  closes  the  export  market  for  farm 
products,  and  does  not  assure  snllicient  increase  in  domestic  demand  to  offset  this 
loss,  as  probably  less  than  half  of  the  unemployed  will  find  work  m  defense 
industries  before  1942.  .  , ,        •  ^ . 

Government  and  cooperative  farming  to  be  successtul  requires  reasonable  prices 
for  suitable  land,  fair  prices  for  material  and  equipment,  careful  and  tactful 
supervision,  and  a  cooperative  spirit  among  the  families. 

In  1938  the  value  of  farm  lands  held  by  the  26  largest  insurance  companies 
was  $529,000,000,  andf  from  1982^S8  they  foreclosed  $670,000,000  of  farm 
mortgages 

The  Federal  Government  owns  over  260,000,000  acres  of  land  in  the  Forest 
Service  and  Grazing  Division,  and  many  States  own  much  farm  land  acquired 
through  tax  sales,  and  some  of  all  these  lands  are  suitable  for  such  cooperative 
farming.  ^.^.  ,  . 

Naturally  farmers  in  commercial  agriculture,  fear  competition  under  present 
conditions,  and  most  of  cooperative  farms  should  be  self-sustaining,  or  exchange 
products.  .  ,  ^. 

Families  in  such  farms  would  not  be  compelled  to  remain,  and  the  young 
folks  would  be  free  to  take  employment  which  offers  a  better  financial  status  if 
they  can  get  it,  or  to  try  farming  on  their  own. 

Obviously,  such  a  farm  program  will  not  solve  our  economic  chaos,  it  will 
mitigate  some  of  its  worse  impacts. 

Uncontrolled  finance  capitalism  has  run  its  course,  and  the  private  monopoly 
dictatorship  which  we  have,  though  getting  a  new  lease  of  life  through  the 
war,  will  yield  to  an  intelligent  system  of  production  and  distribution  in  the 
next  few  years. 

TESTIMONY  OF  BENJAMIN  C.  MARSH— Resumed 

Mr.  :Marsh.  I  am  executive  secretnry  of  the  Peoples'  Lobby  with 
headquarters  here  in  Washiiioton.  I  have  been  here  nearly  23  years 
now,  and  observed  the  operations  of  Conoress  with  interest,  and  I 
was  going  to  say,  enthusiasm — I  will  say  enlightenment. 

Mr.  Parsons.  How  large  an  organization  is  yours? 

INIr.  Marsh.  It  is  a  very  small  one,  about  2,000  members,  and  live 
or  six  hundred  subscribers  to  our  monthly  bulletin. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  they  contribute  dues  for  the  maintenance  of  your 
bureau  here  ^ 

Mr.  Marsh.  Yes;  we  have  varying  memberships,  and  they  are 
scattered  over  about  32  or  33  States.  It  is  not  a  large  organization, 
but  we  go  on  the  tlieory — I  think  you  will  accept  it — that  Congress- 
men are  anxious  to  consider  the  merits  of  any  measure  as  well  as 
liow  many  people  say  they  are  for  it.    It  is  time  we  did  that,  anyhow . 

Understand,  this  is  not  a  partisan  statement,  be<>ause  we  are  in  a 
mess 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  the  weakness  of  democracies.  The  people 
themselves,  constitutionally,  at  least  in  theory  are  the  Government, 
and  tliey  speak  through  constituted  re]n'esentatives.  The  public  doe.< 
not  always  Imow  exactly  what  is  best  for  them  and  neither  does  their 
representative  always  know. 


interstatp:  .migration  3653 

Mr.  Marsh.  Do  not  take  this  personally,  but  I  sometimes  wonder 
whether  I  sympathize  more  with  the  people  or  with  their  representa- 
tives.   I  think  yon  will  hardly  blame  me. 

Mr.  Parsoxs.  Thank  yon  for  your  consideration.  You  may  pro- 
ceed with  yoMj-  statement. 

f;0\'ERN3rENT  FARMS  SU(iOKS'ITJ) 

Ml-.  Marsh.  Tlieiv  are  cei-tainly  half  a  million  fann  families,  and 
probably  thi-ee-qiiarters  of  a  million,  who  cannot  have  a  decent  ex- 
istence in  competitive  commercial  af^riculture,  who  should  be  in  Gov- 
ernment or  cooperative  farms,  under  careful  and  tactful  supervision, 

Mr.  CuETis.  What  do  you  mean  by  Government  farms? 

Mr.  Marsh.  I  mean  that  the  Government  in  substance  extend  the 
work  that  it  is  doing  under  the  Farm  Security  Administration  in 
these  resettlement  projects.  And  if  I  may  illustrate — and  I  am  so 
glad  to  emi:)ha.size  this — about  4  or  5  years  ago,  I  had  the  opportunity 
of  visiting  some  of  them,  including  the  one  near  Scottsboro,  Ala.,  up 
in  the  mountains  there:  Crossville.  Tenn. :  and  Diaz  Colony,  in 
Arkansas;  and  several  others,  and  I  was  impressed  with  what  they 
were  achieving.  It  happened  that  people  near  Scottsboro — the  Cum- 
berland Plateau,  I  think  they  call  it 

Mr.  Sparkmax.  Skyline  Farms  now. 

Mr.  Marsh.  They  Avere  the  best  illustration,  because  they  had 
come  from  the  poorest  relief  families.  They  got  the  land  very 
cheaply  through  a  dummy.  They  had  a  genius  for  a  superintend- 
ent, and  a  personnel  man,  and  I  was  delighted  witli  the  difference 
in  the  people  from  what  they  must  have  been  when  they  came  off 
the  relief  rolls,  and  with  their  coopei-ative  spiiit  which  they  were 
showing. 

So  it  may  be  necessary — and  I  am  going  to  submit  with  your 
permission  a  bill  which  we  had  drafted  making  possible  the  acquisi- 
tion under  certain  conditions  of  farm  land  by  tlie  Government,  either 
operated  directly,  as  is  practically  done  in  the  resettlement  projects, 
or  through  coopertaive  farming;  oi-  it  may  be  more  practical — they 
thought  so  when  we  suggested  this  bill  '1  years  ago  or  a  little  over — 
to  have  the  Congress  make  larger  ap]n'opriations  for  the  Resettle- 
ment Administration,  the  Farm  Security  Administration. 

But  I  want  to  quote  several  Government  officials  on  this,  includ- 
ing the  Vice  President-Elect,  a  statement  that  he  made  as  Secretary 
of  Agriculture. 

However,  early  this  year.  Dr.  W.  \\ .  Alexander,  the  Farm  Secu- 
rity Administrator,  said : 

If  we  were  to  attempt  to  do  a  complete  job,  rhe  Farm  Secvuiry  Admiiii.strati'Mi 
should  extend  it.s  rehabilitation  i>rogi'ani  to  virtually  all  of  the  1,700,000  farm 
families  which  have  an  average  annual  income  of  less  than  ?.tOO  a  year,  includ- 
ing all  the  produce  they  grow  for  themselves. 

He  added : 

America  cannot  afford  to  plan  only  partial  .'solutions,  or  to  be  content  with 
Ijalliative  measures. 

The  increase  in  employment  for  armaments  will  not  largely  atfect 
farm  surplus  labor  while  the  need  for  defense  practically  closes  the 


3554  INTER STATP]  MKUIATION 

export  market  for  farm  products  and  does  not  assure  sufficient  in- 
crease in  domestic  demand  to  oifset  this  loss,  as  probably  less  than 
half  of  the  unemployed  will  find  work  in  defense  industries  before 
1942. 

May  I  say,  after  writing  this,  I  got  the  release  this  afternoon  of  a 
speech  which  Dr.  Louis  H.  Bean,  counselor  of  the  Bureau  of  Agri- 
cultural Economics,  is  making  at  the  American  Society  of  Agronomy 
in  Cliicago  today,  in  which  he  says : 

PROBLEM  OF  SURPLUS  FARM  LABOR 

Instead  of  rising  agricultural  exports  of  tbe  World  War  period,  we  now 
face  sharply  restricted  agricultural  exports  as  the  present  war  spreads.  Not 
more  than  3  percent  of  farm  income  will  be  derived  this  season  from  exports 
as  compared  with  16  percent  in  the  1920's.  Thus,  the  problem  of  surplus 
manpower  on  farms  looms  larger  than  ever  in  areas  normally  producing  for 
export,  particularly  in  the  South  and  Middle  West. 

Dr.  Bean  is  a  very  careful  economist,  and  doubtless  has  made  a 
l)retty  careful  estimate  of  what  the  exports  will  amount  to. 

As  I  say,  the  increase  in  employment  for  armaments  will  not 
largely  affect  farm  surplus  labor  wliile  the  need  for  defense  prac- 
tically closes  the  export  market  for  farm  jn'oducts,  and  does  not 
assure  sufficient  increase  in  domestic  demand  to  offset  this  loss,  as 
probably  less  than  half  of  the  unemployed  will  find  work  in  defense 
industries,  before  1942,  when  we  will  probably  hit  the  peak  and 
have  maybe  five  or  six  million  more  employed.  That  is  going  to 
leave  us — well,  I  notice  that  the  American  Federation  of  Labor  says 
that  the  present  unemployed  figures  are  8,130,000.  That  was  in  this 
morning's  papers. 

Government  and  cooperative  farming  to  be  successful  requires 
reasonable  piices  for  suitable  land,  fair  prices  for  material  and 
equipment,  careful  and  tactful  supervision,  and  a  cooperative  spirit 
among  the  families. 

Just  as  an  illustration.  Secretary  Wallace  stated  in  an  address  in 
December : 

With  full  use  of  mechanical  power  we  can  produce  our  present  supplies  of  farm 
products  with  5,000,000  fewer  people  living  on  the  land. 

I  do  not  need  to  go  into  any  detail  as  to  what  that  signifies  in  the 
way  of  the  displacement  of  present  farmers. 

He  further  said  in  his  report : 

Illustrative  of  the  human  problem  involved,  it  may  be  said  that  without  letting 
the  production  fall  below  the  demand,  wheat  and  cotton  combined  could  get  along 
with  1,500,000  fewer  working  persons.  Present  prospects  for  domestic  and  for- 
eign takings,  with  allowance  for  the  possible  effects  of  the  war,  will  not  solve  it. 

That  problem  still  remains.  Where  are  you  going  to  get  the  land? 
I  admit  you  are  facing  a  practical  problem,  and  the  stress  is  going  to  be 
upon  measures  which  rate  as  paramount  in  defense  of  the  country,  and 
pretty  large  appropriations  up  to  date  have  been  made.  I  think  we 
are  more  threatened  with  bottlenecks  in  the  tool  industry  and  the  steel 
industry  than  with  appropriations.    .Congress  has  done  its  part. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3655 

HOAV  TO  GET  FARM  LAND 

Now,  I  want  to  make  some  suggestions  as  to  Iioav  to  get  the  land. 

In  1938  the  vakie  of  farm  lands  held  by  the  26  largest  insurance 
companies  was  $529,000,000,  and  from  1932  to  1938  tliey  foreclosed 
$670,000,000  of  farm  mortgages. 

The  Federal  Government  owns  o^er  260,000,000  acres  of  land  in  the 
Forest  Service  and  Grazing  Division,  and  many  States  own  much  farm 
land  acquired  through  tax  sales,  and  some  of  all  these  lands  are  suitable 
for  such  cooperative  farming. 

I  have  discussed  this  question  over  the  country.  Nearly  every  year 
I  go  from  here  to  the  coast.  I  was  out  this  summer  and  discussed  it 
with  farmers  in  different  sections  of  the  country,  the  farmers  who  are 
in  commercial  production,  and  they  are  very  much  worried  over  this, 
and  I  can  understand  it. 

Suppose  these  farmers  who  are  now  on  relief  go  into  ]n'oducing 
cotton  and  wheat  and  milk  and  livestock  and  what  not.  We  cannot 
sell  what  we  are  producing  today,  and  we  are  responsible  for  the 
maintenance  of  our  farms,  which,  as  you  know,  means  taxes  and  mort- 
gage interest  and  supplies  and  what  not.  Therefore,  I  make  this 
suggestion.  Naturally,  farmers  in  commercial  agriculture  fear  com- 
petition under  present  conditions,  and  most  cooperative  farms  should 
be  self-sustaining,  or  they  could  exchange  produce,  and  so  forth. 

Families  in  such  farms  would  not  be  compelled  to  remain,  and  the 
young  folks  would  be  free  to  take  employment  which  offers  a  better 
financial  status  if  they  can  get  it,  or  try  farming  on  their  own. 

I  am  not  suggesting  that  you  say  to  people  who  are  unemployed  on 
the  farm,  "You  cannot  leave  it."  That  would  be  strictly  un-American. 
They  should  not  be  compelled  to  remain.  I  notice  tiiat  Mr.  Rauch 
pointed  out  that  they  let  them  take  employment  wherever  they  can  get 
it,  even  if  they  are  on  relief — that  is,  employment  in  private  industry. 

Obviously,  such  a  farm  program  will  not  solve  our  economic  chaos, 
but  it  will  mitigate  some  of  its  worst  impacts. 

Now,  I  am  unable  to  tell  this  committee — I  have  not  noticed  whether 
it  has  been  brought  out  before  you  in  your  hearings  up  to  date  or  on 
your  investigations  over  the  countrj' — I  do  not  know  what  proportion, 
for  instance,  of  the  migratory  farmers  called  Okies  who  went  to  Cali- 
fornia, or  the  farmers  who  are  drifting  back  and  forth,  have  lost  their 
farms. 

Mr.  Parsons.  We  have  the  record  of  that;  around  60,000  farm  units. 

Mr.  Marsh.  The  foreclosing  of  mortgages  was  not  the  only  cause 
of  the  migratory  workers,  if  only  60,000  out  of  the  hundreds  of  thou- 
sands who  are  going  without  a  home  are  represented  by  that  group. 

private  monopoly  dictatorship 

Uncontrolled  finance  capitalism  has  run  its  course,  and  the  private 
monopoly  dictatorship  which  we  have,  though  getting  a  new  lease 
of  life  through  the  war,  will  yield  to  an  intelligent  system  of  produc- 
tion and  distribution  in  the  next  few  years. 


2556  INTERSTxVTE  MIGRATION 

It  seems  to  me  we  are  in  a  very  serious  impasse.  If  there  should  be 
some  sudden  assured  permanent  peace  tomorrow,  the  economic  system 
of  every  major  country  would  collapse.  It  is  all  geared  to  a  huge 
armament  program.  If  we  go  on  for  2  or  3  years  more  of  preparedness 
without  having  something  very  carefully  worked  out  to  replace  this 
preparedness  program,  the  collapse  will  be  much  worse. 

I  want  to  read  one  more  statement  from  Dr.  Bean,  to  whom  I  re- 
ferred and  identified  earlier.    He  says : 

If  national  income  reaches  $90,000,000,000  in  1942  as  compared  witli  75  billions 
in  1940,  roughly  3  billions  more  may  be  spent  by  consumers  for  foods,  of  which 
farmers  may  receive  about  one  and  a  lialf  billion.  This  moderate  gain  would  yield 
agriculture  as  a  whole  no  improvement  iu  its  share  of  the  national  income  and 
still  leave  farm  income  about  $2,000,000,000  short  of  the  parity  income  standard. 

Also,  he  says : 

Any  increase  in  farm  income  will  cliiefly  benefit  the  upper  50  penent  of  the  farms 
which  receive  85  percent  of  the  total  income,  and  the  lowest  third  may  receive  a 
still  smaller  share  since  many  of  them  have  been  producing  for  export. 

Now,  I  have  several  statements  here  w^hich  I  would  be  glad  to  read 
to  you  from  testimony  of  Secretary  Wallace  and  others  before  commit- 
tees.   But  there  is  one  that  I  want  to  confine  myself  to. 

Mr.  Parsons.  We  have  had  several  witnesses  from  the  Department 
of  Agriculture  and  its  various  divisions  at  our  other  hearings,  and 
jn-obably  a  great  deal  of  that  territory  has  been  covered. 

people's  lobby  oefeks  bill 

Mr.  Marsh.  I  do  not  want  to  repeat  it.  I  do  not  know  whether  these 
two  or  three  short  statements  have  been  presented  to  you  or  not.  I 
think  you  will  be  interested  in  the  reaction  wdiich  we  got  to  this  sug- 
gestion for  a  Government  marketing  corporation  which  is  incorporated 
in  the  bill  which  I  w  ould  like  to  have  made  a  part  of  the  record,  as  a 
suggestion.  It  is  a  proposed  bill.  It  has  not  been  introduced.  This 
analysis  of  the  bill  and  a  brief  for  it  was  read  into  the  Congressional 
Record  on  May  4, 1939,  by  Mr.  Knutson,  of  Minnesota.  But  he  frankly 
said  that  he  did  so  by  request  and  not  with  any  thought  that  he  was  in 
accord  on  the  proposal.  I  did  not  w^ant  to  commit  him  on  that  at  that 
early  stage. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Without  objection,  that  may  be  incorporated  in  the 
record  here. 

(The matter  referred  to  is  as  follows:) 

PUBUC  Control  and  Ownership  of  Natural  Resources — Extension  of  Re- 
marks OF  Hon.  Harold  Knutson.  of  Minnesota,  in  the  House  of  Repre- 
sentatives. Thursday,  May  4,  1939 — Analysis  and  Brief  by  the  People's 
Lobby,  Inc. 

Mr.  Knutson.  ilr.  Spealier,  under  leave  to  extend  my  remarlvs  in  tlie 
Record,  I  insert  a  statement  of  a  proposed  plan  for  public  control  and  owner- 
ship of  natural  resources.  I  am  doing  so  by  request,  and  not  with  any  thought 
that  I  am  iu  accord  with  the  proposal. 

I.   ANALYSIS    OF   PROPOSED   BILL 

The  policy  of  Congress  is  declared  to  be  "to  encourage  and  promote  the 
public  control  and  ownership  of  agricultural  land   and   resources  in  order  to 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3657 

preveiit  absentee  private  ownership  of  land,  speculation  in  farm  lauds,  exploita- 
tion of  farmers,  and  the  subjection  to  debt  burdens  of  land  operated  by  owners." 

The  Secretary  of  Agriculture  is  authorized  to  acquire  any  real  property 
within  the  United  States  and  its  Territories,  for  the  purposes  of  the  act,  "by 
purchase,  exercise  of  the  power  of  eminent  domain,  or  gift." 

Tlio  total  appropriation  for  the  purpose  is  $250,000,000. 

The  Secretary  is  authorized  to  lease  farm  lands  acquired  to  bona  fide 
farmers'  or  other  cooperatives  on  conditions  he  prescribes  and  also  to  operate 
such  fantns. 

It  is  stipulated  that  in  acquiring  farm  lands  consideration  shall  be  given 
to  what  the  average  net  return  of  the  lands  has  been  during  the  preceding 
10  years,  adn  what  it  probably  would  be  should  the  land  remain  in  private 
ownership,  and  that  the  price  paid  "shall  be,  as  nearly  as  possible,  what  the 
land  would  bring  in  the  open  market  without  any  Government  subsidy  on 
crops,  direct  or  indirect." 


II.  BKIKI-  FOK  BMPOWl'JlING  THE  SECRKTABY  OF  AGEICULTtTRE  TO  ACtJT^IKB  FARM  I^\NDS 
AND  OPERATE  OR  LE/VSE  THEM 

1.  All  good  farm  land  has  passed  into  private  ownership. — All  good  farm  land 
has  passed  into  private  ownership  and  is  held  for  speculative  selling  prices 
or  profits. 

The  Department  of  Agriculture  reports  that  about  100,000,000  acres  of  land 
should  be  withdrawn  from  cultivation. 

In  a  pamphlet.  Saving  the  Soil,  it  states : 

"Of  the  1,907,000,000  acres  representing  the  total  area  of  the  country,  ex- 
clusive of  city  and  water  territory,  nearly  two-thirds  is  in  some  degree  affected 
by  erosion.     *     *     * 

"In  terms  of  money,  the  direct  toll  of  erosion  is  estimated  at  $400,000,000 
annually." 

In  1929  only  about  8,000  farms  were  classified  as  large-scale  farms — or  one 
one-hundredth  percent  of  all  farms — but  they  paid  11  percent — about  one- 
ninth — of  the  total  farm  wage  bill. 

In  1935  there  were  88,662  farms  of  over  1,000  acres  out  of  6,812,350  farms. 

In  1935,  3,899,091  farms  were  operated  by  owners,  of  which  only  3,210,224, 
less  than  half  of  the  total,  were  operatefl  by  full-time  owners,  and  48,104  were 
operated  by  managers. 

Tenant  farmers  operated  2,865,155,  or  42.1  percent  of  all  farms,  and  there 
were  336,S02,0(J0  acres  in  tenant-operated  farms,  or  54  percent — considerably 
over  half — of  all  land  in  farms. 

By  1937,  Secretary  of  Agriculture  Wallace  rei3orts,  the  number  of  farm 
tenants  was  about  2,565,000,  and  he  commented  : 

"Not  all  farm  tenants  need  to  be  converted  into  owners  in  order  to  give 
them  the  necessary  security.  Cheap  land  in  itself  may  not  be  the  answer. 
This  country  had  plenty  in  the  past  and  gave  it  away  freely  under  the  home- 
stead laws ;  yet  throughout  large  areas  today  there  are  more  tenants  than 
owners,  and  the  tenants  are  very  insecure.  It  is  well  to  aid  tenants  in  becom- 
ing owners  as  funds  and  opportunities  permit,  but  the  problem  of  giving  more 
security  to  the  remaining  tenants  must  be  dealt  with  in  other  ways.  Land 
buying,  indeed,  sometimes  causes  speculation,  excess  of  debt,  and  foreclosure,  the 
end  result  of  which  is  more  tenancy.  We  need  a  better  farm-tenant  system  and 
better  methods  of  land  loaning." 

2.  Government  policies  are  increasing  selling  prices  of  farms  and  rentals,  and 
reducing  demands  for  farm  products. — The  Secretary  of  Agriculture  in  his 
annual  report  for  1938  states  that  in  1938  the  index  of  the  value  of  farm  land 
per  acre  for  the  entire  country  was  85,  compared  with  73  in  1933,  with  the 
years  1912-14  equaling  100,  and  makes  two  comments : 

(a)  "Important  among  the  current  factors  in  the  situation  are  the  present 
ample  supply  of  credit  for  land  transfers,  the  prevailing  low  level  of  interest 
rates,  and  the  sharp  decline  that  has  taken  place  in  the  last  decade  in  the 
total  agricultural  indebtedness." 


3658  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

(b)  "Many  farms  still  carry  indebtedness  tbat  is  excessive  in  relation  to 
their  earning  power. 

"Moreover,  farm  earning  power  tends  frequently  to  be  overestimated,  par- 
ticularly when  land  values  are  rising.  It  makes  no  difference  whether  the 
advance  results  from  an  actual  increase  in  current  farm  earnings,  or  from  a 
gain  in  the  net  income  to  the  farmer  as  a  result  of  low  interest  rates.  What- 
ever the  cause,  farmers  tend  to  capitalize  the  favorable  prospects  exces.sively 
and  to  make  them  the  base  for  an  unwieldy  superstructure  of  debt." 

He  also  states:  "Rent  paid  by  farmers  in  the  United  States  to  nonfarmers 
in  1935  is  estimated  at  $699,000,000,  in  1936  at  $743,000,000,  and  in  1937  at 
$829,000,000." 

This  excludes  rentals  paid  to  relatives  and  to  other  farmers,  and  since 
buildings  on  rented  farms  are  notoriously  poor,  it  is  chiefly  rent  for  farm  lands. 

In  1929  such  rentals  were  $1,110,000,000. 

Higher  prices  for  farm  products  due  to  higher  costs  of  production  and  dis- 
tribution have  curtailed  domestic  consumption,  which  the  administration  seeks 
to  increase  by  special  arrangements  for  those  on  relief,  and  has  alo  reduced 
demand  abroad. 

We  exported  only  about  as  much  wheat  in  1938  as  in  many  years  before 
1932,  and  about  half  as  much  cotton. 

The  plan  for  export  bounties  on  farm  products  won't  meet  the  situation. 

3.  Farm  program  does  not  raise  standards  of  landless  farmers. — For  the 
current  fiscal  year.  Federal  expenditures  for  agriculture,  exclusive  of  appro- 
priations for  the  Department  of  Agriculture,  are  estimated  at  $1,092,973,500, 
of  which  "aid  for  tenant  farmers"  is  only  $26,800,000,  or  about  2V2  percent. 

A  small  part  of  the  Farm  Security  Administration  and  Rural  Electrification 
Administration  outlays  also  seeps  through  to  tenant  farmers  and  sharecroppers. 
•  »***♦« 

4.  Mechanization  on  farms  militates  ayainst  tenant  farmers. — Dr.  C.  Horace 
Hamilton,  in  a  study  "The  Social  Effects  of  Recent  Trends  in  Mechanization  of 
Agriculture"  by  the  Texas  College  of  Agriculture  and  the  Mechanical  Arts, 
says: 

"It  has  been  estimated  that,  in  1830,  288  hours  of  man-labor  were  required 
to  produce  a  hundred  bushels  of  wheat  on  5  acres  of  land.  By  1930  only  49 
man-hours  were  needed  to  produce  100  bushels  of  wheat  on  5  acres. 

"In  the  production  of  corn,  the  number  of  man-hours  needed  to  produce 
100  bushels  dropped  from  about  180  in  1880  to  104  in  1930. 

"In  1930  only  235  man-hours  were  required  to  produce  a  bale  of  cotton  as 
compared  to  285  in  1900,  and  304  in  1880. 

"The  surplus  of  farm  tenants  available  in  Texas  has  created  considerable 
competition  among  tenants  for  places  to  rent ;  and,  as  a  result,  rental  rates 
are  rising.  In  areas  that  once  followed  the  straight  third-and-fourth  share  rent 
systems,  cash  rents  and  privilege  rents  of  various  types  are  being  u.sed.  Pas- 
ture land,  which  tenants  formerly  received  free  of  rent,  now  rents  frequently 
for  $1  ijer  acre. 

"In  some  areas  tenants  are  being  charged  cash  rent  for  their  dwellings.  In 
many  areas  from  three  to  six  dollars  per  acre  is  being  charged  for  land  planted 
in  fee  crops.  On  many  of  these  farms  the  cash  rent  on  the  feed  lands  amounts 
to  more  than  the  income  from  cotton." 

Dr.  Hamilton  estimates  there  are  betvs^een  200,000  and  300,000  cotton  pickers. 

Mechanization  is  partly  responsible  for  the  fact  that  about  one-seventh  of  tho 
farms  of  America  produce  about  one-half  of  all  farm  production. 

This  leaves  one-half  of  farm  production  for  six-sevenths  of  the  farms. 

Dr.  Paul  S.  Taylor,  in  an  article  in  the  United  States  Department  of  Labor 
Monthly  Review  for  April  1938,  states : 

"Between  1930  and  1937,  according  to  the  best  data  available,  the  mimber  of 
tractors  (on  southern  farms)  increased  from  12.2  percent  to  18.5  percent  of  the 
national  total.  While  tractors  increased  23.7  percent  in  the  United  States,  they 
increased  87.9  percent  in  the  10  southern  Cotton  States." 

5.  Present  status  of  farm  tenants  and  farm  labor. — Mr.  J.  R.  Butler,  president, 
Southern  Tenant  Farmers'  Union,  describes  the  status  of  "more  than  10,000,OCK> 
human  beings"  as  "enslaved  in  chains  by  'King  Cotton,'  absolute  monarch  of 
America's  Southland." 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3659 

He  states : 

"Diiriug  the  past  5  years,  more  than  500,000  sharecropper  families — white  and 
colored — have  heen  displaced  from  their  homes,  forced  into  the  cities,  there  to 
begin  futile  competition  with  America's  10,000,000  unemployed,  or  have  accepted 
the  horrible  alternative  of  becoming  farm  laborers,  paid  by  the  day,  for  working 
from  sunup  to  dark,  at  a  wage  between  50  cents  and  $1.50." 

«♦*♦** 

In  1935  the  then  Resettlement  Administration  estimated  that  630,682  farms, 
Avith  91,246,000  acres,  presented  use  problems  which  "appear  to  warrant  encour- 
agement of  a  change  from  crop  farming  to  stock  ranching,  or  to  forestry  or  other 
oonservational  use." 

Fourteen  Southern  States  had  451,767,  or  over  two-thirds  of  these  farms,  with 
44,012,000  acres,  or  nearly  half  of  the  acreage. 

These  States  did  not  include  the  Dust  Bowl  nor  the  big  grazing  States.     . 

Sharecroppers,  tenant  farmers,  and  farm  labor  are  being  made  the  victims 
of  this  "economic  planning"  for  the  benefit  of  southern  plantation  monopolists 
and  their  northern  avaricious  credit  lirokers. 

6.  Present  status  of  Ooveniiiiciif  ic-^cttleiiicnt  projects. — The  Assistant  to 
The  Secretary  of  Agriculture  stated  Jaiuiary  6,  1939: 

"(1)  The  Farm  Security  Administration  has  virtually  completed  149  projects 
which  were  initiated  by  the  Resettlement  Administration  or  other  preceding 
agencies.  This  total  includes  five  migi-atory  labor  camps  and  three  suburban 
housing  projects  known  as  Greenbelt  towns.  The  remaining  projects  vary 
greatly  in  type.  Although  no  two  are  quite  alike,  they  all  fall  within  these 
general  classifications: 

"(o)   Full-time  farming  projects. 

"(b)  Subsistence  homestead  projects,  in  which  the  residents  produce  most 
of  their  food  supplies  in  their  own  gardens,  and  earn  their  principal  cash 
income  by  working  in  established  industries  in  nearby  cities. 

"(c)  Part-time  farming  projects,  in  which  the  residents  earn  part  of  their 
income  by  working  in  industries  which  have  been  established  at  the  project 
site. 

"(2)  Expenditures  on  all  projects  up  to  November  30,  1938,  totaled  approxi- 
mately $102,678,753.  The  total  expenditures  for  all  projects  except  the  sub- 
urban communities  and  the  migratory  labor  camps  was  $64,461,122. 

"(3)  Although  some  of  the  projects  are  not  yet  fully  occupied,  49,781  persons, 
•or  approximately  10,000  families,  were  in  residence  as  of  December  1,  1938. 
We  regi'et  that  we  do  not  have  a  break-down  showing  the  number  of  adults 
and  the  number  of  minors  resident  in  our  projects.  In  general,  however,  the 
typical  families  selected  for  residence  included  two  adults  and  between  two  and 
three  children. 

"(4)  Industrial  enterprises  have  been  established,  or  are  being  planned  for 
nine  of  the  projects." 

*  *  *  ■•::  *  *  * 

This  is  a  good  beginning,  but  meets  the  needs  of  only  about  1  i)ercent  of 
those  equally  needing  a  chance. 

7.  Reasons  for  provisions  as  to  payment. — The  admission  by  the  Secretary  of 
Agriculture  that  Federal  payments  to  landowners  for  soil  conservation,  crop 
benefits,  etc. — really  a  subsidy — has  increased  the  selling  price  of  farm  lands 
shows  the  necessity  for  ending  the  policy  of  scarcity  subsidy,  which  inures 
chiefly  to  the  benefit  of  farm-land  owners,  as  there  has  been  a  marked  reduction 
of  farm-mortgage  debt,  as  well  as  interest  rates. 

Government,  representing  all  the  people,  cannot  maintain  class  privileges. 

Its  largesse  to  farm-land  owners  was  designed  to  save  their  productive  plant, 
but  does  not  establish  a  precedent. 

The  fact  Government  has  given  such  salvaging  subsidy  gives  it  a  prior 
ethical  claim  to  acquire  farm  lands  for  the  use  of  the  most  helpless  of  the 
farm  population — on  the  basis  of  the  selling  price  of  farms  without  a  Govern- 
ment subsidy. 

In  the  early  thirties  few  farms  showed  a  net  return. 

No  net  return  means  no  commercial  selling  price. 

Government  must  not,  in  fairness  to  all,  buy  back  what  it  has  created. 


3660 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Legally  title  to  all  land  is  inalienably  vested  in  the  Government — State  or 
Federal. 

Refusal  to  provide  Federal  subsidies  to  farmers  would  insure  acquiescence  in 
a  rational  program  of  land  taxation,  and  acquisition  for  the  public  welfare,  at  a 
price  not  bloated  by  Treasury  grants ;  that  is,  by  taxes  on  consumers. 

Only  Federal  subsidies  prevents  the  debacle  of  agriculture  today. 

8.  Chief  alleged  ohjectiom  and  answers. — First.  Taxing  all  ground  rent  into 
State  and  local  treasuries  in  place  of  taxes  on  consumption  would  make  land 
available  for  a  song  and  remove  the  need  for  such  a  measure. 

This  should  be  done,  but  would  not  be  enough,  because  farming  can  no  longer 
be  conducted  as  an  individualistic  competitive  enterprise,  as  the  growth  of 
farmers'  selling  and  buying  cooperatives  attests. 

Second.  The  plan  would  lead  to  an  orgy  of  speculation  in  farm  lands  and  the 
(government  would  be  struck  heavily. 

The  Government  will  be  much  more  careful  about  paying  high  prices  for  laud, 
when  it  is  to  retain  title,  instead  of  unloading  it  on  sharecroppers,  tenant  farm- 
ers, and  agricultural  workers,  and  making  them  hold  the  sack.  The  Government 
can  refuse  to  buy  high-priced  land,  and  through  its  grants  from  the  Treasury 
compel  State  and  local  governments  to  adopt  tax  systems  which  will  reduce  the 
selling  price  of  good  farm  lands. 

Third.  It  will  ruin  farmers'  independence. 

That  has  already  been  done;  and  the  wealthiest  farmers,  with  the  highest- 
priced  land,  are  most  dependent  upon  the  Government  and  getting  the  biggest  cut 
out  of  the  Treasury,  and  ultimately  the  people,  by  bonuses,  soil-conservation  pay- 
ments, taritfs,  and  county  agents'  services. 

*  *  *  *  *  *  * 

9.  Agricultural  experts  favor  general  plan  of  Government  and  cooperative  farm- 
ing.— Dr.  H.  C.  Nixon,  Birmingham,  Ala.,  executive  secretary,  Southern  Conference 
for  Human  Welfare : 

"I  am  in  hearty  sympathy  with  the  idea  of  setting  up  Government  farming  cor- 
porations, with  power  to  operate  farms  directly  or  through  cooperative  societies : 
in  other  words,  with  the  idea  of  providing  facilities  by  which  more  people  can 
help  themselves  as  producers  and  consumers  on  the  countryside. 

"This  is  particularly  important  in  the  South,  where  so  many  people  are  backed 
up  on  the  land  but  where  human  and  physical  resources  are  not  adequately  har- 
nessed for  producing  a  living  or  for  living. 

"The  Farm  Security  Administration  program  is  good  as  far  as  It  goes,  but  it 
does  not  go  far  enough." 

Dr.  J.  D.  Black,  department  of  economics.  Harvard  University : 

"So  far  as  the  proposal  relative  to  farming  operations  is  concerned,  I  think 
it  would  be  better  to  work  this  out  of  the  F.  S.  A.  by  the  procedure  of  amend- 
ing the  act  to  permit  the  Government  to  acquire  land  and  sell  it  under  flexible 
long-time  contracts,  preceded  by  short-term  lease  periods,  as  was  recommended 
in  the  original  report  on  farm  tenancy. 

"My  principal  objection  to  that  proposal  was  that  I  would  make  the  period 
during  which  the  contract  can  be  paid  completely  elastic  up  to  40  years. 

"I  would  also  amend  the  act  to  permit  experimenting  with  cooperative 
farming  ventures.  I  think  we  must  feel  our  way  along  with  respect  to  under- 
takings of  this  sort.  In  general,  I  would  expect  an  arrangement  under  which 
each  man  operating  his  own  farm  by  large-scale  machinery  that  was  owned  by  a 
group  of  farmers  cooperating  for  that  purpose  would  prove  more  satisfactory. 

"I  should  also  like  to  see  the  rehabilitation  program  of  the  F.  S.  A.  pushed 
as  rapidly  as  is  warranted  by  the  success  which  it  achieves  in  any  given  area." 

Barry  Bingham,  president  and  publisher,  and  Mark  F.  Ethridge,  vice  presi- 
dent and  general  manager,  the  Courier-Journal  and  the  Louisville  Times,  join 
in  the  statement ; 

"You  ask  our  opinion  on  the  value  of  an  expansion  of  the  resettlement 
program  of  the  Farm  Security  Administration.  It  was  the  sentiment  of  the 
Atlanta  meeting  (of  29  representative  southern  leaders),  as  stated  in  their 
declaration,  to  urge  the  continuation  and  expansion  of  this  program. 

■'We  personally  feel  that  it  is  one  of  the  outstanding  constructive  efforts  to 
which  we  should  devote  ourselves  in  order  to  obtain  any  measure  of  security 
in  the  farming  regions  of  our  Nation. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3661 

"The  limited  program  which  has  been  in  operation,  as  you  suggest,  barely 
touches  the  problem.  It  has  been  suiiieient  to  prove,  however,  the  soundness 
of  such  a  plan,  and  the  overwhelming  need  for  a  reconstruction  of  our 
American  farm  life  along  these  lines." 

Dr.  T.  Lynn  Smith,  director,  experimental  stations,  Louisiana  Agricultural 
and  Mechanical  College: 

"I  favor  a  limited  amount  of  governmental  experimentation  with  large-scale 
cooperative  agricultural  ventures.  I  am  particularly  concerned,  however,  that 
such  undertakings  be  designed  in  a  manner  that  allocates  responsibilities  for 
decisions  and  failures  to  the  various  members  of  the  society.  In  other  words. 
if  all  of  the  thinking  is  reserved  for  a  few  managers  of  the  project,  in  my 
estimation  the  thing  has  failed  before  it  has  started. 

"There  are  problems  of  land  tenure  in  the  South  which  are  very  real,  but 
these  are  similar  to  tenure  problems  in  other  parts  of  the  country.  In  addition 
to  these  the  South  has  the  acute  problems  which  arise  out  of  the  plantation 
system  due  to  the  fact  that  the  great  mass  of  the  agriculturists  have  no  tenure 
rights,  and  a  few  people  shoulder  all  the  responsibilities.  At  the  present  time 
the  so-called  tenancy  of  the  South  is  blamed  for  the  one-crop  system  ineffi- 
cient labor,  low  returns  to  the  laborers,  soil  erosion,  soil  exhaustion,  etc.  It  is 
intei'esting  to  note  that  prior  to  the  Civil  War  the  institution  of  slavery  received 
the  blame  for  these. 

"Why  not  saddle  the  responsibility  onto  the  plantation  system  where  it  prop- 
erly belongs?  Perhaps  in  the  future  a  system  of  cooperation  will  be  evolved 
which  will  overcome  the  social  disadvantages  of  large-scale  agriculture.  But 
so  far  in  the  liistory  of  the  world  large-scale  agriculture  has  always  resulted 
in  the  development  of  a  small  selected  group  of  the  elite,  while  the  great 
mass  of  the  population  has  remained  in  ignorance  and  poverty." 

Dean  Thomas  S.  Staples,  Hendrix  College,  Conway,  Ark. : 

"We  need  to  subsidize  or  finance  the  marginal  and  submarginal  farmer.  It 
is  unwise,  to  my  notion,  for  us  to  colonize  people  from  the  lowlands,  the  high- 
lanas,  and  the  alleys  together  in  colonies  situated  in  social  and  geographical 
areas  to  which  they  are  not  accustomed.  To  be  specific,  it  is  my  opinion  that 
it  is  miwise  to  bring  people  from  the  hills  and  from  the  bottoms  where  they 
have  lived  in  houses  situated  far  apart  and  locate  them  in  such  projects  as  the 
Dyess  colony.  It  is  unfair  as  well  as  unwise  to  set  up  Government  farming 
corporations  for  a  few  of  the  people  and  subsidize  the  projects  at  the  expense  of 
other  people.  I  approve  in  principle  agricultural  cooperative  societies.  How- 
ever, I  do  not  believe  in  the  Government  subsidizing  them." 

Dr.  Charles  S.  Johnson,  director,  department  of  social  science,  Fisk  Univer- 
sity: 

"I  believe  that  in  the  present  situation  of  the  great  mass  of  tenants,  in 
the  South  notably,  the  major  needs  are  (a)  for  secvu-ity  above  the  rather  ques- 
tionable unique  advantage  of  ownership  in  fee  simple,  and  (b)  for  intelligent 
and  dependable  guidance  in  the  form  of  Government  services,  in  the  interest 
of  the  producers  themselve>«. 

"No  other  arrangement  that  I  can  think  of  can  serve  both  the  long-exploited 
producer  at  the  bottom  and  at  the  same  time  contribute  intelligently  to  the 
preservation  of  the  soul  of  the  South." 

William  Mitch,  president,  district  20.  United  Mine  Workers  of  America, 
Birmingham,  Ala. : 

"It  seems  to  me  that  it  would  be  well  for  the  Government  to  give  a  trial  to 
this  experimental  proposition  of  cooperative  farming  when  full  facts  have  been 
developed  in  the  matter." 

The  proposal  is  not  to  "socialize"  or  "collectivize"'  agriculture,  but  to  extend 
rapidly  pi-actical  Government  ownership  of  farms,  and  provision  of  Govern- 
ment direction  and  guidance  for  hundreds  of  thousands  of  untrained  and  im- 
poverished farm  families  by  methods  which  have  already  proven  their  worth. 

TESTIMONY  OF  BENJAMIN  C.  MARSH— Eesumed 

Mr.  Marsh.  You  see,  I  do  not  agree  Avitli  the  witness  early  this  after- 
noon, if  I  understood  him  correctly,  who  said.  "I  hope  yon  jnst  con- 
tinue your  investigation." 

I  know  you  have  something  more  practical  in  mind  than  just  con- 
tinuing this  investigation.  You  want  to  make  constructive  recom- 
mendations to  the  Cong-ress. 


3gg2  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

We  sent  a  draft  of  tliis  bill  outlining  its  principles,  that  were  ap- 
proved by  such  men  as  Dr.  H.  C.  Nixon,  of  Birmingham,  Ala,,  execu- 
tive secretary  of  the  Southern  Conference  for  Human  Welfare;  we 
sent  the  bill  to  them  and  they  approved  the  principles  of  the  bill— Dr. 
J.  D.  Black,  of  the  department  of  economics,  Harvard  University; 
Dr.  T.  Lynn  Smith,  director,  experimental  stations,  Louisiana  Agi-i- 
cultural  and  Mechanical  College;  Dean  Staples,  Hendrix  College, 
Conway,  Ark.;  and  Dr.  Charles  S.  Johnson,  director,  department  so- 
cial science,  Fisk  University;  and  William  Mitch,  president.  District 
20,  United  Mine  Workers  of  America.  Bii-mingham.  Ala. 

They  did  not  approve  the  details  of  the  bill.  Naturally,  I  did  not 
ask  them  to  do  that,  but  the  principles. 

We  are  going  to  have  some  migratory  farm  labor  and  other  labor 
almost  ine-^atably.  But  what  we  have  not  faced  up  with,  it  seems  to 
me,  and  what  your  committee  is  bound  to  face  up  with,  is  the  fact  that 
we  have — I  have  heard  Government  officials  say  it  privately — at  least 
1,000,000  if  not  1,500,000  surplus  farm  families  under  the  present 
economic  set-up. 

Of  course,  they  are  going  somewhere  else,  looking  for  a  job,  even  if 
they  have  not  a  chance  in  the  world,  if  they  can  get  the  money  to  do  it. 

RECOMMENDS  LARGE  APPROPRIATION 

We  therefore  suggest  that  either  you  make  a  large  ax^propriation — 
tentatively  we  suggested  quarter  of  a  billion  dollars  for  this — I  will 
not  say  experiment — for  continuing  the  successful  experiment  in  Gov- 
ernment-organized and  Government-operated  farms,  or  for  cooperative 
farms,  or  else  make  an  additional  appropriation  to  the  Farm  Secu- 
rity Administration  of  whatever  amount  you  can  raise  above  the  pres- 
ent appropriation,  so  that  they  can  get  a  large  proportion  of  it ;  for,  as 
Dr.  Alexander  or  one  of  his  associates  stated  in  a  recent  hearing,  they 
are  just  scratching  the  surface. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Of  course,  it  would  take  a  tremendous  amount  of 
money  to  complete  a  program  such  as  you  liave  outlined.  The  Farm 
Security  Administration  has  helped  approximately  half  a  million  farm 
families  and  is  continuing  to  help  them,  and  will  continue  to  do  so  in  the 
future,  and  probably  add  additional  ones  to  their  loan  rolls.  But  it 
would  take  a  tremendous  amount  of  money  to  put  over  such  a  pro- 
gram. It  is  possible  that  upon  the  cooperative  people  taking  it  out  of 
the  power  of  the  Government  and  putting  it  on  the  basis  of  at  least 
semiprivate  operation,  it  might  work  out. 

Mr.  Marsh.  We  have  not  found  any  other  answer. 

Mr.  Parsons.  With  the  aid  of  the  Government,  perhaps.  AVe  are 
very  glad  to  have  your  suggestion  in  that  connection,  and  no  doubt 
you  will  be  able  to  fuid  someone  who  will  introduce  your  bill  in  the 
next  Congress.  Of  course,  if  it  is,  it  will  be  referred  to  the  Agi'icul- 
tural  Committee,  and  you  will  have  an  opportunity  to  exi)lain  the 
details  before  that  committee. 

Mr.  Marsh.  May  I  make  one  suggestion?  I  have  been  unable  to 
find  out  how  mucli  good  farm  land  is  owned  by  private  banks.  We 
liave  the  records  on  the  insurance  companies,  but  I  Avonder  if  your 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3(3(33 

committee  could  ascertain  how  much  farm  land  the  banks  and  mort- 
gage companies  now  own  through  foreclosure,  or  what  the  amount  of 
land  is  that  could  be  taken  in.  it  seems  to  us  at  a  fairly  low  price,  be- 
cause there  is  not  going  to  be  the  boom  in  farm  lands  this  time  that 
there  was  in  the  last  war ;  because,  instead  of  there  being  an  increase 
in  exports,  as  I  pointed  out  to  you,  there  is  going  to  be  a  terrific 
decrease. 

If  your  committee  could  do  that,  it  would  l)e  \ery  hel})fu!. 

Thank  you  very  much. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Thank  you. 

The  committee  will  stand  adjourned  until  10  o'clock  on  Monday. 

(Wliereupon  the  committee  adjourned,  to  meet  on  Monday,  De- 
cember 9,  1940,  at  10  a.  m.). 


INTERSTATE  MIGEATION 


MONDAY,   DECEMBER  9,    1940 

House  of  Representatives, 
Select  Committee  to  Investigate  the 
Interstate  Migration  of  Destitute  Citizens, 

W ashing ton^  D.  G. 
The  committee  met  at  10  a.  m.,  Hon.  John  H.  Tolan  (chairman) 
presiding. 

Present:   Representatives  John   H.   Tolan,  chairman;   Claude   V, 
Parsons;  John  J.  Sparkman;  Carl  T.  Curtis;  Frank  C.  Osmers,  Jr. 
Also  present:  Dr.  Robert  K.  Lamb,  chief  investigator;  Henry  H, 
Collins.  Jr.,  coordinator  of  field  hearings;  Creekmore  Fath  and  John 
W.  Abbott,  field  investigators ;  Ariel  E.  V.  Dunn  and  Alice  M.  Tuohy, 
assistant  field  investigators;  Irene  M.  Hageman,  hearing  secretary; 
Richard  S.  Blaisdell,  editor;  Harold  D.  Cullen,  associate  editor. 
The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  be  in  order,  please. 
The  first  witness  is  Mr.  Chester  G.  Shackelton. 

TESTIMONY  OF  CHESTER  G.  SHACKELTON,  BALTIMORE,  MD. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Shackelton,  will  yon  give  your  name  and  ad- 
dress to  the  reporter? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Chester  Shackelton,  12  East  Lafayette  Street, 
Baltimore,  Md. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Shackelton,  how  old  are  you  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  I  am  22, 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  I  was  born  in  Esbon,  Kans. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Are  j^ou  married? 

Mr.  Shackelton,  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  much  schooling  did  you  have? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  I  went  through  the  gi-ade  school  and  2  years  of 
high  school. 

Mr-.  Sparkman.  Two  years  of  hi^h  school? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Ml-.  Sparkman.  Why  did  you  stop  your  high-school  work? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  I  just  wanted  to  work,  I  guess. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  you  go  to  work;  did  you  get  a  job? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes;  working  in  an  elevator  in  Esbon,  Kans. 

Mr.  SpARKiMAN.  Are  jTm  working  now? 

INIr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

3665 


QQQQ  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Spakkman.  Wliat  are  you  doing? 
Mr.  Shackelton.  Working  on  airplanes. 
Mr.  Sparkman.  Where? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  At  the  Glenn  L.  Martin  plant  in  Baltimore. 
Mr.  Sparkman.  How  long  have  you  had  that  job? 
Mr.  Shackelton.  Two  weeks. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  it  a  temporary  job;  you  are  not  just  employed 
on  a  temporary  basis  now  ? 
Mr.  Shackelton.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  is  the  nature  of  your  work  ? 
Mr.  Shackelton.  I  am  working  on  construction  of  wings. 
Mr.  Sparkman.  Are  you  a  skilled  worker? 
Mr.  Shackelton.  No;  just  went  through  school. 
Mr.  Sparkman.  What  school  did  you  go  through  ? 
Mr.  Shackelton.  The  Aeronautical  Institute  in  Kansas  City. 

ten  weeks  in  aeronautics  school 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  long  did  you  go  there? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Ten  weeks. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  did  it  cost  you  to  go  there  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  $166 ;  that  was  the  tuition. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  $166  was  the  tuition  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  did  you  happen  to  learn  of  that  school  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Well,  I  had  been  thinking  about  going  to  some 
school,  some  place,  and  my  aunt  wanted  me  to  go  there. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  is  your  training ;  what  are  you  classified  as  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Well,  I  do  not  know ;  just  do  everything  that  I  can. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Are  you  a  mechanic? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes;  I  have  worked  at  it. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Or  a  helper? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  I  have  worked  as  a  mechanic. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Well,  on  your  present  job,  what  is  your  classifi- 
cation ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  I  am  classified  as  a  spliner. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  is  a  spliner  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  It  is  splining  up  wings,  getting  them  even. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  It  is  a  regular  job  in  aeronautical  work? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  stayed  about  6  weeks  in  the  school,  did  you? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Ten  weeks  in  Kansas  City. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  you  pay  the  wliole  amount  of  your  tuition 
yourself  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  was  it  paid? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  My  aunt  loaned  me  the  money  to  begin  with. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  other  words,  one  of  your  family  paid  it? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  were  not  schooled  by  the  Glenn  L.  Martin  con- 


cern 


Mr.  Shackelton.  No. 


INTERSTATE  MIGUATION  3667 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  you  get  a  job  immediately  upon  finishing  your 
school  work? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  I  would  have  if  T  had  filled  out  the  application 
blank  right. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  other  words,  you  got  it  as  quick  as  you  applied 
for  it? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  the  school  ivc^uire  fidl  ])aynient  of  tlie  tui- 
tion before  you  started  training^ 

Mr.  Shackelton.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  did  you  pay  it  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Paid  $50  d<nvn  and  the  rest  on  the  instaUment 
plan. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  you  finished  paying  for  it  all  ( 

Mr.  Shackelton.  No  ;  I  am  still  paying  on  it. 

school  promised  employment 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  the  school  ))r()mise  to  get  employment  for 
you  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  were  they  instrumental  in  getting  it? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes, 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  other  words,  they  did  put  you  in  touch  with 
the  Glenn  L.  Martin  concern? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Well,  they  told  us  to  write  to  the  factory  and 
get  an  application  blank,  and  they  helped  to  get  the  job. 

Mr.  Sparkman,  Is  the  school  pretty  well  filled  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  It  was  when  I  was  there, 

Mr.  Sparkman,  That  is  what  I  mean;  and  did  you  observe  that 
there  were  a  great  many  young  men  going  to  these  schools? 

Mr,  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  you  feel  that  your  work  in  the  school  was  of 
special  benefit  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman,  You  intend  U)  follow  the  aviation  industry^ 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  most  of  tlu^se  who  were  in  school  along  at 
the  same  time  with  you  get  employment  Avith  some  company? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  It  is  your  opinion  that  the  attendance  at  this 
particular  school  did  give  you  value  for  the  money  that  you  spent? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  believe  that  is  ^all  I  wanted  to  ask. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Curtis. 

Mr.  Curtis.  AVhere  is  Esbon,  Kans.  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Esbon,  Kans.,  in  the  north  central  part  of  the 
State. 

Mr.  Curtis,  What  county? 

Mr,  Shackelton.  Jewell. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Jewell  County? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

ifiOMTO— 41— pt.  9 14 


3668 


INTERSTATK  MKJKA'I'K )X 


Mr.  Sparkman.  How  far  is  tliat  from  Superior,  Nel)r. ;  not  very 
far?  " 

Mr.  Shackelton.  No. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  say  you  are  22  years  old? 

Mr,  Shackelton.  Yes.  .     . 

Mr.  Curtis.  Was  there  any  opportunity  to  secure  aviation  work 
in  Kansas? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  No;  not  where  we  were;  the  only  place  was  at 
Wichita. 

Mr.  Curtls.  They  were  not  employing  anyone  there  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  No ;  not  right  then. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Were  there  many  boys  from  the  Great  Plains  Statea, 
such  as  you  were,  in  Kansas,  who  were  in  training  in  the  line  you 
were  in? 

Mr,  Shackelton.  Yes ;  I  believe  there  were. 

Mr,  Curtis.  You  say  you  were  in  training  in  Lincoln  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  No;  Kansas  City, 

Mr.  Curtis.  About  how  many  were  enrolled;  was  it  a  large  en- 
rollment? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  I  believe  there  were  about  100. 

Mr,  Curtis.  About  100  enrolled? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

APPLY  FOR  JOBS  NEAR  HOME 

Mr.  Curtis.  Did  most  of  the  boys  make  application  to  go  east  or 
Avest,  or  did  they  try  near  their  home  first  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.'  Well,  a  lot  of  them  tried  at  Wichita;  they  just 
sent  applications  to  all  factories. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  airplane  factories  in  that 
group  of  States,  besides  Wichita? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  No. 

Mr.  Curtis.  There  are  not  many  large  ones  around  there  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  No. 

Mr.  Curtis.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Were  you  reared  on  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  I  have  lived  on  the  farm,  until  7. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Until  7  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Spariohan.  You  mean  until  you  were  7  years  of  age? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  you  worked  on  the  farm  since  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Just  a  little. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  doing? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Oh,  shocking  wheat,  shucking  corn. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  had  a  natural  desire  for  mechanical  work  ? 

Mr.  Shackelton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  think  that  is  all.     Thank  you. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3669 

TESTIMONY  OF  LEROY  P.  WINDHORST,  OF  WELLS,  KANS. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Will  you  state  your  name,  please. 

Mr.  WiNDHOKST.-  Leroy  P.  Windhorst. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Hoav  old  are  you  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Twenty. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Are  3^ou  married  ^ 

Mr.  Windhorst.  No. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  your  address  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Wells,  Kans. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  part  of  Kansas  is  it  in  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  It  is  really  in  the  central  part.  We  are  just  30 
miles  from  the  geographical  center  of  the  United  States. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  the  largest  town  you  are  located  near? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Well,  we  are  90  miles  from  Wichita;  90  miles 
north. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  far  are  you  from  Salina  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Twenty-five  miles. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  are  north  of  Salina? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  school  did  you  attend  'i 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Kansas  Wesleyan  University. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  long  were  you  at  Kansas  Wesleyan  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  was  there  about  4  months. 

Mr.  Curtis.  When  did  you  graduate  from  high  school? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  In  May  of  1938. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  when  did  you  enroll  in  Kansas  Wesleyan? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  In  September. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Of  1938? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  large  a  town  is  Wells  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  The  population  is  100. 

Mr.  Curtis.  One  hundred  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  the  county  seat  of  that  county  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Minneapolis. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Mr.  Windhorst,  what  does  your  father  do? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Well,  he  farms  some.  He  did  run  a  grocery  store 
in  that  town,  but  sold  out  just  recently. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Business  is  not  so  good  in  a  town  of  100  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  No  ;  there  is  too  much  competition. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Is  vour  father  able  to  make  a  living  running  the 
farm? 

FAR:NrEn  limited  to  raising  M'HEAT 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes;  he  is  doing  right  well,  except  he  is  limitxjd 
more  or  less  to  raising  wheat;  cannot  raise  corn. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  many  acres  does  your  father  farm,  usually? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  It  varies  between' 300  and  400  acres,  depending 
upon  the  year. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Does  he  own  the  land  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  He  owns  it. 


^Q'JQ  INTERSTATE  MIGIJATION 

Mr.  CuKTis.  How  much  help  did  he  require  in  running  a  farm  of 
400  acres? 

Mr.  WiNDHOKST.  Well,  in  seasons  when  I  was  home  lie  and  I  did 
it ;  we  had  a  tractor  and  a  combine  ? 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  did  tractor  farming? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  when  your  father  was  engaged  in  tractor  farm- 
ing did  you  live  out  on  the  farm  or  live  in  toAvn  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  We  lived  in  the  little  town  of  Wells. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  far  out  of  town  was  it  to  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Well,  it  ran  from  6  to  15  miles. 

Mr.  Curtis.  It  was  not  just  one  piece  of  land  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  No. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  many  brothers  and  sisters  do  you  have? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  have  two  sisters. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Are  they  older  than  you  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  One  is  older  and  one  younger. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Your  father  still  owns  the  land? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  like  farming  or  would  yoii  rather  get  into 
aviation  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  do  not  loiow ;  I  have  been  in  aviation  only  very 
little.  I  do  like  farming,  but  they  both  have  their  drawbacks ;  farm- 
ing has  its  drawback  and  also  aviation.  I  thought  I  would  like  to 
try  aviation  and  if  I  did  not  like  it  I  would  go  back. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  did  you  say  you  Avei'e  located  now  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Gleim  L.  Martin  Co.  in  Baltimore. 

PREFERS  KANSAS  TO  MARYLAND 

Mr.  Curtis.  Du  you  like  to  live  in  Maryland  l>etter  than  you  do 
in  Kansas  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  No  ;  I  cannot  say  I  do. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  had  rather  be  back  in  Kansas  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  would  rather  be  back  there. 

Mr.  Curtis.  After  you  left  Wesleyan,  where  did  you  go? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  went  back  to  Wells  and  worked  with  my  father 
in     the  grocery  store  and  helped  him  on  the  farm. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  did  you  get  your  aviation  training? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  At  Lincoln,  Nebr. 

Mr.  Curtis.  When  did  you  go  to  Lincoln  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  In  February,  this  year. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  did  you  happen  to  decide  to  go  to  Lincoln  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  just  happened  to  go  up  there  with  a  friend  of 
mine,  and  he  was  going  to  see  about  the  school,  and  while  we  were  there 
I  got  interested  and  so  I  stayed,  too. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  the  name  of  that  school  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  It  is  the  Lincoln  Aeronautical — it  goes  by  two 
names — the  Lincoln  Flying  School,  and  tlie  Lincoln  Aeronautical 
Institute. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  courses  do  they  offer;  just  flying?  Or  do  they 
offer  other  aviation  trainins? 


INTERSTATE  iMTGRATION  3571 

>'ARIETY  OF  THAINING  COURSES 

Mr.  Windhorst.  There  is  a  great  deal  of  training  on  the  ground  and 
aviation  mechanics.  There  is  a  3-month  course,  and  also  an  8-week 
€ourse  in  sheet  metal,  and  also  a  3-month  course  in  sheet  metal ;  and  you 
«an  also  take  drafting  and  engineering. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  long  has  that  school  been  organized ;  do  you  know  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  do  not  know  how  long  it  has  been  organized  for 
a  flying  school.  Before  it  was  a  flying  school  it  used  to  be  a  tractor 
school. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  course  did  you  take  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  took  a  sheet-metal  course,  the  8- weeks'  sheet-metal 
course. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  did  not  take  a  flying  course  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  No. 

Mr.  Curtis.  That  happened  to  be  the  town  where  Charles  Lindbergh 
took  his  training,  did  it  not'^    I  guess  they  told  you  that. 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  many  weeks  did  you  sav  you  studied  sheet-metal 
work? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Eight  weeks. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  what  did  they  assign  you  to  when  you  first  went 
to  work ;  or  to  school ;  Avhat  did  they  teach  you  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Well,  the  first  week  they  just  put  us  to  cutting  out 
different  patterns  and  different  kinds  of  metal  gadgets  and  for  the 
different  things  you  have  to  have  on  planes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  many  would  there  be  in  a  class  that  yt)ii  were 
instructed  in  when  you  were  cutting  out  various  patterns  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  In  that  sheet-metal  class  I  really  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  many  in  the  room  at  the  time  the  instructor  was 
there ;  do  you  recall  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  There  would  be  about  100,  but  with  several  in- 
structors. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Several  instructors? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  About  how  many  for  that  group  of  boys  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  think  there  were  about  10. 

Mr.  Curtis.  About  10  instructors? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  were  you  able  to  do  with  sheet  metal  by  the  time 
you  finished  the  8-week  course? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Well,  we  learned  to  know  about  how  much  you 
could  bend  the  metal;  if  it  is  thin,  it  could  be  bent  into  certain  shapes, 
without  breaking,  and  if  it  is  thick,  it  could  not  be  bent  as  much.  If 
it  is  thin  and  malleable,  it  would  take  quite  a  radius. 

Mr.  Curtis.  When  you  had  finished  your  training,  you  could  do 
riveting  and  solder  work? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes;  we  could  do  riveting  and  soldering. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  what  kind  of  work  do  you  do  at  the  Martin  Co.  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  have  been  on  the  final  "assembly.  We  have  to  do 
some  riveting;  not  so  much;  it  is  mostly  on  the  fitting  of  various  parts 
on  the  planes,  fitting  them  together. 


3672  INTEKSTATE  MIGKATION 

Mr,  Curtis.  Do  you  woik  under  someone  else ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  CuETis.  Tliere  are  instructors  along-  with  you.  seeing  how  you  do 
the  work  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  get  along  all  right  '^ 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Get  along  fairly  well. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  feel  you  are  mechanically  inclined  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes;  I  do.  I  have  })een  around  thi-eshers,  tractors. 
and  things  of  that  kind  all  my  life. 

Mi-.  Curtis.  Where  did  you  say  you  went  to  high  school  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  In  Minneapolis,  Kans. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Did  you  take  any  kind  of  shop  or  any  metal  work? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  spent  my  freshman  year,  the  first  year  I  spent 
at  that  kind  of  study,  and  I  had  some  woodworking  training,  but,  of 
course,  the  work  was  not  very  extensive;  it  was  just  a  small  town. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  did  you  happen  to  come  east  to  get  work  after  you 
had  completed  your  training? 

WESTERN  AIRPLANE  PLANTS  FILLED 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Well,  the  West  seemed  to  have  been  pretty  well 
filled  at  that  time,  because  there  were  so  many  people  who  went  out 
there  because  of  lack  of  work. 

Mr.  Curtis.  In  speaking  of  the  West,  you  mean  the  west  coast  i 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  did  it  happen  you  did  not  stay  where  you  were^ 

]Mr.  Windhorst.  Well,  the  only  place  offering  work  in  aviation  was 
at  Wichita  and  they  did  not  have  a  demand  for  men  right  at  that 
time. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  say  you  graduated  from  high  school  in  1938? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Were  most  of  the  boys  that  you  were  acquainted  with 
111  high  school  employed;  have  they  found  work  around  in  their  local- 
ity where  you  went  to  high  school  ? 

Mr.  WiNDPioRST.  Well,  a  part  of  them  are  still  theie,  and  a  part  of 
them  got  some  work  in  that  locality;  some  of  them  are  in  the  Navy: 
some  are  in  the  Army :  they  are  just  scattered  around. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  they  all  have  jobs? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Well,  practically  all  of  them,  the  biggest  portion. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  sort  of  jobs  do  they  have? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Well,  some  of  them  have  work  on  the  farm  with 
their  fathers,  or  maj'be  they  have  gotten  mari-ied  and  have  moved  on 
to  a  place  themselves. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Those  that  were  interested  in  mechanical  lines :  Have 
they  been  able  to  stay  around  there? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  No;  I  do  not  think  so  many  of  them  have  been 
able  to  get  anything  in  that  line,  notliiug  in  aviation  work  at  alU 
there  are  only  just  two  or  three  of  us  that  I  know  of  that  are  in  that. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Most  of  the  boys  were  able  to  get  work  who  attended 
this  Lincoln  school,  were  they? 


I^"TEKSTATE  MIGUATION  3673 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes;  I  do  not  know  of  anyone  wlio  lias  not  <»-otte.ii 
work  after  going  there. 

Mr.  Curtis.  There  seemed  to  be  an  opportunity  for  the  boys  who 
took  training  in  mechanics? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  there  are  no  opportunities  in  Kansas  and  Ne- 
braska or  the  (jreat  Plains  States  along  those  lines? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  No;  thei-e  is  not  right  now.  There  will  l)e  aft«r 
the^'  get  through  building,  and  they  are  doing  some  building  there 
now.  There  are  one  or  two  plants  in  Wichita,  Kans.,  and  there  is  a 
plant  being  moved  from  Columbus,  Ohio,  down  there.  There  is  also 
one  in  Dallas,  Tex.,  where  they  are  building  a  big  plant.  That  will 
l)e  finished,  I  imagine,  in  about  6  months,  and  there  will  be  wf)rk. 

JNIr.  Curtis.  Have  you  done  any  flying  yourself  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  No. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  would  you  rather  live,  Maryland  or  back  out 
in  Kansas? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  I  would  rather  live  there. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Rather  get  back  to  Kansas  ? 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  are  in  favor  then  of  further  development  of  the 
aviation  industry  and  other  such  industries  in  that  area  ? 

Mr.  AViNDHORST.  Yes ;  I  think  there  is  an  opportunity  for  it  there. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  have  no  further  questions. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you  very  much. 

Mr.  Windhorst.  Thank  you. 

TESTIMONY    OF    BOEIS    SHISHKIN,    DIEECTOR    OF    EESEARCH, 
AMERICAN  FEDERATION  OF  LABOR,  WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

The  Chairman.  Please  state  your  full  name  and  the  capacity  in 
which  you  appear,  Mr.  Shishkin. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Boris  Shishkin,  economist,  American  Federation  of 
Labor,  Washington,  D.  C. 

The  Chairiman.  I  understand  that  it  was  the  desire  of  President 
Green  to  appear  before  this  committee  in  person  but  that  he  was 
called  out  of  the  city. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  That  is  right,  sir.  I  want  to  call  attention  at  the 
outset  to  the  fact  that  President  Green  personally  has  requested  the 
American  Federation  of  Labor  to  devote  a  great  "deal  of  attention  to 
this  subject,  and  President  Green  himself  has  done  a  great  deal  to 
initiate  the  study  of  it  and  to  secure  reports  from  affiliated  organi- 
zations, as  the  interest  was  indicated  by  a  great  deal  of  discussion  that 
took  place  at  the  last  convention  of  the  federation.  But,  unfortun- 
ately, just  having  returned  from  the  convention  and  because  of  the 
demands  of  other  organizations,  it  was  absolutely  impossible  for 
President  Green  to  be  here  today  and  he  requested  me  to  convey  to 
you  his  very  sincere  regret  that  he  was  not  able  to  appear. 

The  Chairman.  Mr,  Shishkin,  I  have  read  your  statement  and  I 
think  you  have  a  very  valuable  contribution  for  the  records  of  this 
committee.    Now,  possibly  you  do  not  want  to  read  the  entire  state- 


OQ'J^  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

nient  which  you  have  submitted  to  us,  and  I  suggest  that  you  bring 
out  the  points  that  you  desire  and  the  committee  will  ask  you  some 
questions  at  the  conclusion.    You  can  just  proceed  in  your  own  way 

at  this  time.  n  i-i  i 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman.  I  would  like  to  read 
some  parts  of  the  statement  and  expand  on  several  points  touched 
upon,  particularly  those  contained  in  the  recommendations.  [Read- 
ing:] 

DEFENSE  AGAINST  INSECURITY 

MigiHtorv  workers  and  their  families  are  refugees  from  iusecurity.  They 
must  be  given  priority  of  consideration  in  the  planning  of  national  defense  and 
in  making  provision  for  readjustment  at  the  end  of  the  emergency. 

Defense  in  terms  of  military  strength  is  paramount.  But  what  will  it  profit 
the  American  people  to  throw  an  impregnable  defense  around  their  borders  and 
at  the  same  time  face  defeat  in  the  internal  fight  against  unemployment,  priva- 
tion, and  insecurity?  An  essential  part  of  our  defense  problem,  therefore,  is  to 
plan  and  build  in  such  a  way  that  the  sources  of  employment  could  never  run 
dry  as  they  have  done  in  the  past,  that  a  constant  supply  of  productive  activity 
is  made  available  to  each  area  and  community,  thus  making  possible  deep- 
rooted,  stable  growth  of  a  strong  and  healthy  Nation. 

In  approaching  the  problem  of  migratory  labor,  and  our  interest, 
the  interest  of  organized  labor,  is  equally  divided  between  the  prob- 
lems faced  by  the  agricultural  workers,  those  engaged  in  processing, 
industrial  processing  of  agricultural  products,  which  is  a  very  sea- 
sonal industry  and  one  which  gives  rise  to  a  great  deal  of  migratory 
labor,  and  that  of  industry  in  general,  and  particularly  the  migra- 
tory problem  which  has  been  brought  about  by  the  current  develop- 
ment in  connection  with  national  defense. 

It  may  be  pointed  out,  and  I  think  several  witnesses  have  made 
and  emphasized  the  point  that  migratory  labor  as  such  is  necessary 
in  our  present  set-up  in  our  economic  organization  today;  that  is, 
has  been  the  normal  thing  and  has  been  the  best  thing  for  American 
life  from  the  beginning,  but  it  should  also  be  pointed  out  that  the 
migratory  labor  that  we  know  today  is  primarily  the  product  of 
economic  pressure,  it  is  a  product  of  the  destitution  which  affects  the 
lower-income  groups  that  are  brought  down  to  a  low  margin  under 
our  system. 

There  have  been  a  number  of  basic  developments  that  have  taken 
place  in  this  country  coincident  with  the  development  of  our  immi- 
gration and  growth.  That  is  evidenced  by  the  fact  that  in  the  past 
the  family  system  of  production  existed  throughout  the  country  in 
going  into  frontier  fields.  Families  now  have  gotten  much  smaller, 
there  is  not  the  same  economic  unit  to  be  found  at  this  time,  and  as 
has  been  pointed  out,  that  has  taken  place  within  the  past  25  years. 
Because  of  the  development  in  this  direction,  it  is  easier  now  for 
men  and  women  to  take  up  their  household  effects  and  move  on. 
That  is  due  i)artly  because  we  have  better  methods  to  get  around. 
Where  it  used  to  take  10  days  to  travel  in  order  to  get  some  place, 
across  the  wide  expanse,  it  now  only  takes  1  day. 

But  we  do  have  the  problem  that  in  its  entirety  according  to  some 
reports — and  it  is  almost  impossible  to  estimate  the  figures,  and  per- 
haps the  social -security  figures  furni,sh  the  soundest  basis — that  &x)me 


INTERSTATE  .AIIGRATION  3675 

4,000,000  persons  are  now  annually  migrating;,  and  that  does  not  take 
into  account  the  commuters  across  State  lines. 

There  is  a  tremendous  part  of  our  population  that  is  shifting  and 
which  should  have  an  ojjportunity  to  become  rooted  in  the  regular 
framework  of  community  life.  And  in  that  connection  I  also  want 
to  say  that  tho,se  who  are  on  the  move  under  those  pressures  are  not 
imlike  those  who  were  under  the  pressure  in  the  frontier  days,  which 
has  characterized  American  life,  and  we  do  not  have  the  frontiers 
that  existed  in  our  early  days.  But  we  do  have  frontiers :  We  have 
frontiers  that  are  just  as  significant,  economic  frontiers,  which  are  to 
be  found  within  our  own  borders  and  which  enables  us  to  supply  the 
source  of  employment  in  economic  fields,  and  increase  the  purchasing- 
power,  and  in  our  own  groups  of  workers,  in  these  economic  areas,, 
are  the  frontiers  in  which  we  have  the  greatest  room  for  expansion. 
And,  I  believe  in  the  solution  of  the  problem  we  still  have  a  great 
way  to  go  yet.     [Reading :] 

Men,  women,  and  children  forced  to  take  to  the  road  ui  tlieir  search  for  jobs 
and  homes  and  in  their  struggle  to  survive,  represent  an  enormous  waste  of  our 
human  resources  and  a  drain  upon  the  health  and  vitality  of  the  Nation.  In 
the  past  few  years  we  have  done  much  in  the  field  of  soil  and  forest  conserva- 
tion, but  we  have  not  done  enough  to  assure  conservation  of  human  lives  from 
the  blight  of  unemployment,  of  economic  shifts  and  instability. 

These  millions  of  people,  forced  to  search  for  new  homes  and  new  jobs,  are 
so  near  the  ragged  edge — with  total  annual  earnings  ranging  between  around 
$300  and  $700  per  family — that  the  slightest  set-back  or  misfortune  is  certain 
to  push  them  into  utter  destitution. 

And,  some  of  the  reports  show  an  income  of  as  low  as  $100.  But 
on  these  reports — and  I  must  say  that  the  Tolan  committee  has 
brought  together  and  amassed  an  amount  of  valuable  information  on 
this  most  difficult  subject,  with  which  to  make  the  study  that  we  now 
have  before  us,  so  we  have  a  pretty  well  rounded  out  idea  of  what  is 
an  essentially  human  problem  of  the  family  in  thig  economic  period,, 
that  has  to  be  shouldered  by  thousands  of  families.     [Reading :] 

DEFENSE  PRODUCTION   STRAINS  RESOURCES 

To  the  plain  public  duty  of  remedying  these  conditions  and  of  removing  their 
causes  is  now  added  another  imperative  and  pressing  requirement.  Defense 
organization  and  defense  production  will  strain  to  the  limit  the  resources  of 
the  American  people.  The  defense  needs  place  upon  our  Congress  and  our  Gov- 
ernment an  exacting  duty  to  make,  in  a  democratic  way,  an  urgent  and  ade- 
quate provision  of  remedies  and  facilities  to  end  the  idle  ebb  and  flow  of  unem- 
ployed job  seekers  and  to  direct  it  into  channels  of  normal  productive  activity. 

And,  I  believe  that  the  organization  of  facts  concerning  employ- 
ment, to  provide  information  telling  people  where  to  go,  a  provision 
for  making  explicit  the  information-secured  from  employers  as  to  the 
possible  opportunities  that  ma}^  be  offered  may  assist  a  great  deal  in 
the  solution  of  the  immediate  task,  that  is  the  practical  problem  con- 
fronting us  today,  and  the  possibility  of  a  workable  solution  in  the 
near  future.     [Reading:] 

A  further  problem,  one  which  in  time  will  prove  to  be  the  most  imix»rtant 
of  all,  is  also  extremely  vital  in  connection  with  migratory  labor  and  defense. 
The  American  Federation  of  Labor  calls  upon  Congress  to  focus  its  attention 


3676 


INTEllSTATK  MIGRATION 


npou  this  problem  now.     It  is  the  problem  of  the  aftermath,  with  which  we  will 
be  faced  following  the  defense  activities. 

How  soon  we  will  see  it  end  it  is  difficult  to  foretell,  but  it  may  end 
very  soon,  it  may  happen  over  a  period  of  2  years,  3  years,  or  5  years, 
but  when  the  day  comes  it  will  come  so  suddenly  that  American  in- 
dustry and  labor  will  not  know  what  hit  it.  And  to  sit  by  and  make 
n>o  provision  for  it  now  will  mean  it  will  be  most  too  late  then.  We 
have  got  to  begin  now  to  plan  and  provide  for  the  greatest  crisis 
which,  I  believe,  America  faces,  and  that  crisis  is  the  aftermath,  fol- 
lowing the  emergency,  one  of  readjustment.     [Reading:] 

While  much  migration  of  industrial  labor  is  now  taking  place  due  to  expan- 
sion, redistribution,  and  reallocation  of  defense  production,  the  time  is  not  so 
far  removed  when  defense  activity  will  be  discontinued.  At  that  time  labor 
foresees  a  crucial  test  of  our  ability  as  a  democratic  people  to  assure  unbroken 
continuity  in  oui-  ways  and  methods  of  production  and  of  our  standards  of  woi'k 
and  living. 

When  the  time  comes  new  currents  of  labor  migration  are  bound  to  be  set  off. 
There  will  be  return  flows  of  migration,  new  stranded  groups  of  workers,  new 
ghost  towns,  new  distressed  areas — unless  immediate  provision  against  these 
things  in  every  phase  of  the  defense  program  is  made.  No  matter  how  urgent 
the  problem,  whether  it  is  one  of  defense  housing  or  defense  production  capa- 
city, the  action  needed  is  never  too  urgent  to  prevent  its  being  tested  in  terms 
of  our  post-emergency  requirements. 

I  believe  that  the  Defense  Commission  and  several  Government 
agencies  have  taken  specific  action  concerning  this  problem,  against 
the  day  of  what  will  happen  following  the  emergency,  when  the  date 
arrives,  whe?i  we  will  have  to  go  back  to  normalcy'.     [Reading:] 

rKACETIIME  EMPLOYMENT  PROBLEMS 

lint,  in  addition,  study  and  planning  must  be  begun  now  of  the  needs  and 
conditions  of  th*;  days  we  are  approaching  with  deadly  certainty.  To  what 
productive  peat-etime  use  can  be  put  the  costly  equipment  and  machinery  now 
being  installed  to  make  warcraft,  shells,  tanks,  and  guns?  To  what  peacetime 
use  can  be  put  the  skills  of  thousands  of  workers  who  are  now  being  trained 
for  defense  production?  Are  the  billions  now  being  spent  for  defense  produc- 
tion to  be  used  for  factories  and  equipment  which  can  be  given  full  utilization 
in  normal  peacetime  production,  or  is  this  vast  new  productive  establishment 
condemned  to  become  an  abandoned  skeleton  and  a  silent  monument  to  our 
intense  but  improvident  effort?  Are  the  men  aiul  women  workers  now  being 
given  intensive  training  and  now  being  urged  to  achieve  the  utmost  in  their 
technical  ability  to  be  given  an  opportunity  to  make  a  full  contribution  to  the 
peacetime  production  of  the  Nation,  or  are  they  to  be  thrown  back  upon  the 
scrap  heap  of  unemployed  for  whom  private  industry  has  no  further  use? 

From  the  standj)oint  of  ordinary  living,  this  problem  of  bringing 
into  industry  large  reserAes  of  workers  who  had  training  before, 
wlio  have  had  to  learn  some  different  kind  of  training,  but  who  have 
now  been  retrained,  and  who  have  to  be  trained  in  some  skilled  work 
for  some  particular  job,  is,  of  course,  a  most  serious  one.  The  rate 
of  accession,  as  reflected  in  the  unemployment  figures,  is  about  500,000 
woikers  a  month.  A  half  million  workers  are  being  brought  iiit-o 
industry.  Just  what  the  future  trend  of  that  rate  might  be  is  diffi- 
cult to  foresee,  but  probably  it  will  remain  approximately  the  same; 
unemployment  will  be  reduced  at  about  that  rate.  The  question  is: 
Are  they  being  trained  for  specific  productive  industry?     Will  they 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3677 

fit  in,  and  to  what  extent  will  they  fit  in  peacetime  production — if 
they  are  beino-  trained  for  work  that  is  still  temporary,  if  their  em- 
ployment is,  you  mio-ht  say,  like  that  on  cantonments  which  may  be 
used  temporarily^  for  housing  the  Army  and  then  be  i)ut  into  disuse  or 
reduced  to  dilapidated  structures?     [Reading:] 

As  a  people  we  can  give  coustructive  and  positive  answers  to  these  ques- 
tions only  if,  without  a  moment's  delay,  wc  go  to  work  on  the  complex  problems 
underlying  them.  Only  when  we  are  fully  equipped  with  facts  and  understand- 
ing of  every  implication  of  the  problems  shall  we  be  able  to  forestall  a  post- 
emergency  crisis  through  equitable  and  democratic  met  hods  without  having 
to  resort  to  compulsion  and  regimentation. 

I  want  to  say,  as  we  face  a  problem  which  I  believe  is  an  ex- 
tremely important  one,  that  much  of  the  interstate  labor  migration 
today  may  be  termed  blind  migration.  Workers  and  their  families 
travel  hundreds  and  thousands  of  miles,  placing  their  faith  of  finding 
i'mployment  on  a  vague  rumor  or  deliberately  false  report  greatly  ex- 
aggerating the  employment  needs  which  often  do  not  exist  at  all. 
It  is  of  primary  hnportance,  therefore,  to  assure  visibility  of  em- 
ployment opportunities. 

I  think  that  one  way  to  approach  the  problem — there  is  one  solu- 
tion that  is  a  practical  one — should  be  to  attempt  to  provide  advance 
job  inventories.  We  have  a  number  of  employment  agencies ;  we  can 
call  on  the  local  employment  service,  the  State  local  employment 
service,  and  the  Fedei-al  Emplojnnent  Service  and  coordinate  the 
efforts  of  these  organizations.  But  one  of  the  most  important  things 
is  to-  |jrovide  advance  job  inventories,  and  to  provide  advance  in- 
formation on  the  prospective  employment  oi)i:)ortunities,  and  in- 
dustry cooperating  with  these  organizations  will  be  able  to  arrive 
at  a  sound  and  effective  basis  for  the  placement  of  workers  on  jobs. 

MISLEADING    INFUUMATION    DISTKTI3UTED 

We  have  had  the  maximum  movement  of  industrial  workers  as 
well  as  agricultural  workers,  based  on  the  recommendation  or  re- 
ports of  a  few  workers  needed,  that  have  traveled  a  long  distance 
from  tlie  point  of  origin,  assuming  an  increased  economic  problem. 
We  have  seen  that  happen  repeatedly,  time  and  time  again.  It  hap- 
pened in  Detroit  in  1933  and  1934^  where  thousands,  hundreds  of 
thousands,  of  workers  moved  into  Detroit  when  one  of  the  factories 
was  opening,  increasing  a  difficult  problem  which  the  comnmnity 
already  Avas  confronted  with.  Sometimes  this  has  been  the  result 
of  employers  taking  advantage  of  the  number  of  people  unemployed 
throughout  the  country ;  and  at  other  times  the  residt  of  employment 
agencies.  And  in  fairness  I  must  say  also  sometimes  it  has  been 
done  by  some  of  the  agencies  of  the  Federal  Government  charged 
with  the  responsibility  of  defense.  One  of  the  instances  of  extreme 
importance  is  illustrated  in  the  Frankfort  Arsenal,  near  Phila- 
delphia, where  there  was  an  opportunity  for  200  skilled  workers,  and 
the  reports  were  made,  statements  were  made  officially  that  there 
were  2,000  workers  needed.  They  came  from  surrounding  States 
and  onlv  1  out  of  20  workers  were  hired. 


3678 


IxNTER STATE  MIGR ATK  )N 


Tliat  was  a  tremendous  waste  of  time  and  expense  for  people  who 
are  employed,  who  secure  temporary  jobs,  and  who  come  back  dis- 
illusioned. 

Then  there  is  the  practice  of  bidding  for  a  particular  type  of 
skilled  worlvman.  In  some  of  the  navy  yards  the  practice  has 
occurred  of  callintr  for  first-class  mechanics  when  the  job  that  is 
actually  being  done  represents  a  third-class  mechanics  pay.  The 
reason 'is  that  a  lower  skill  is  being  offered  than  the  first-class  me- 
chanic commands,  and  when  the  first-class  mechanic  ascertains  the 
rate  that  is  to  be  paid  he  finds  he  is  no  better  off,  or  perhaps  worse 
otf  than  he  was  in  the  community  from  which  he  comes. 

Now  statements  have  been  made  to  the  eifect  there  is  a  labor  shortage 
of  skilled  laborers.  There  is  not  a  labor  shortage,  but  if  in  the  defense 
program  such  practice  is  followed  and  first-class  skilled  mechanics  are 
taken,  of  com-se,  that  reduces  the  nmnber  available.  And  this  program 
should  be  undertaken  as  promptly  as  possible  in  cooperation  with 
organized  labor  and  the  industries. 

The  American  Federation  of  Labor  is  ready  to  oifer  any  facility  not 
only  of  the  national  organization  but  also  of  the  State  federations  of 
labor,  the  Central  Labor  Union,  in  securing  men  who  have  been  trained 
over  long  periods  of  years,  in  working  out  this  problem.  I  feel  sure 
that  they  all  realize  the  long-range  problem  and  am  also  sure  they 
will  cooperate  to  the  fullest  extent  in  reducing  labor  migration. 

Another  remedy  which  I  believe  is  imperative  is  one  to  which  I  have 
given  a  great  deal  of  thought  as  a  member  of  the  Department  of  Labor 
Conunittee  on  Private  Emph)yment  Agencies,  which  has  studied  the 
problem  over  a  period  of  months  during  this  year,  and  has  reached 
some  conclusion  and  has  some  recommendations  to  make,  to  submit 
to  the  Congress.  I  do  not  want  to  go  into  details  of  the  specific  recom- 
mendations that  will  be  made  by  the  Division  of  Labor  concerning  the 
legislation,  but  I  do  want  to  develop  the  thought  which  I  think  can 
be  of  use  to  this  committee  in  its  recommendations. 

RECOMMENDATION  OF  FEDERAL  LICENSING 

One  of  the  recommendations  is  to  provi,de  for  [reading]  : 

Federal  liceusiug  of  all  private  employment  agencies  and  agencies  operating 
across  the  State  lines,  for  the  purpose  of  preventing  fraudulent  misrepresentation 
of  job  opportunities,  usurious  fees,  and  all  other  illicit  and  speculative  traffic  iu 
human  labor,  as  well  as  regulation  of  interstate  job  advertising,  vphich  would 
put  an  end  to  many  vicious  practices  by  labor  cojitractors,  employment  agents, 
and  unscrupulous  employers,  practices  which  perpetuate  migration  and  suffering 
of  the  unemployed  workers. 

As  an  illustration,  a  few  days  ago  there  was  an  advertisement  run  by 
an  employer  in  Tennessee.  The  advertisement  appeared  in  Baltimore, 
Washington,  and  Atlanta,  and  other  States  in  the  South  and  Middle 
West.  The  advertisement  Avas  for  a  number  of  plumbers.  Of  course, 
the  reaction  on  the  part  of  the  people  in  each  community  will  be  to 
travel  a  great  distance  to  seek  some  sort  of  a  job. 

Now,  that  illustrates  the  type  of  abuse  in  interstate  commerce  wliich 
the  Congress  has  the  power  to  stop  and  it  should  be  stopped.    Private 


INTERSTATE  :\II(4i;ATIOX  3679 

employment  agencies  have  been  fleecing  not  only  the  poor  niigTant 
workers,  but  also  fleecing  employers,  in  demanding  exorbitant  fees. 
I  believe  a  regulation  of  this  sort,  a  regulation  that  need  not  be 
detailed  a  great  deal.  Avill  be  sufficient  to  accomplish  a  great  deal  and 
stop  the  unnecessary  flow  of  labor  migration.     [Reading :] 

No  preventive  i-emedies  cau  be  effective  unless  tlie  economic  pressure  forcing 
migration  is  removed.  Reducing  inequities  in  income  by  increasing  tlie  purchas- 
ing power  of  low-income  workers  is  fundamental  if  the  goal  is  to  be  achieved. 
Extension  of  coverage  of  the  minimum-wage  and  maximum-hour  standards  of  the 
wage-and-hour  law  and  extension  of  safeguards  of  collective  bargaining  rights 
to  workers  now  excluded  from  protection  against  substandard  labor  conditions 
and  unfair  labor  practices  are  strongly  urged  by  labor  as  bringing  into  operation 
long-range  stabilizing  forces. 

There  is  another  phase  of  the  problem  I  want  to  touch  upon  which 
I  believe  is  important  in  this  connection.  There  has  been  a  tendency 
during  the  past  2  years,  a  tremendous  effort,  for  exemption  from 
coverage  over  the  labor  legislation  of  workers  engaged  in  industrial 
production,  in  processing  of  the  products  that  have  to  do  with 
agricultural  commodities. 

In  dealing  with  this  problem,  those  who  have  actually  studied  it, 
and  looked  at  the  facts  and  looked  at  the  source  of  pressure  for  the 
exemptions,  discovered  that  the  public  impression  was  made  wide- 
spread that  this  had  to  do  with  agricultural  work  and  that  their 
employees  in  packing  houses  and  canneries  and  in  all  pha.ses  of 
processing  of  agriculttual  products  are  engaged  in  industrial  oper- 
ations; they  are  not  in  agricultural  work,  and  the  exemption  is  not 
justified;  the  exemption  is  not  one  which  comes  within  the  intent 
of  the  Fair  Labor  Standards  Act  of  1938,  and  the  investigation 
.showed  there  was  no  evidence  to  bear  out  the  contention;  and  there 
was  no  justification  for  the  exemption. 

KXIOIPTIONS  UNDEK  FAIR  LABOR  STANDARDS  ACT 

In  the  act  there  are  two  sets  of  exemptions,  one  for  seasonal  opera- 
tions and  one  for  perishable  products.  They  are  all  for  14  weeks. 
In  the  ruling  of  the  Wage  and  Hour  Division  that  has  granted  an 
exemption  possible  to  apply  consecutive!)^.  If  you  have  one  14 
weeks"  exemption  in  one  section  and  another  14  weeks'  exemption 
in  another  section,  and  if  you  apply  that  to  different  projects  in  the 
same  plants,  the  workers  may  have  no  maximum  hours.  If  there  is 
a  week  seasonal  element  and  all  the  work  is  put  into  one  short  space 
of  time  that  means  one  worker  is  employed  long  hours,  up  to  TO, 
and  in  some  instances  78  or  80  hours,  and  unemployed  the  rest  of 
the  time,  and  he  is  given  an  opportunity  to  find  another  job,  but 
Tie  deprives  another  worker  of  the  opportunity  of  employment  there. 

It  is  very  important  to  provide  basic  standards  and  to  have  the 
minimum  wage  and  maximum  hours  provision  of  the  act  extended 
to  all  these  classes  of  workers.  Extension  of  workmen's  compensa- 
tion coverage  to  temporary  and  casual  workers,  and  to  employments 
now  excluded,  is  very  necessary.     [Reading:] 

Undoubtedly,  the  most  outstanding  means  of  stabilizing  residence  in  a  com- 
munity for   low-income   workers   and   in    reducing  pressure   to   migrate  is  the 


3(3§(J  INTERSTATE  EMIGRATION 

provision  of  housing,  rural  as  well  as  urban,  under  the  programs  of  the 
United  States  Housing  Authority  and  Farm  Security  Administration. 

(Continuation  and  expansion  of  the  program  of  the  local  housing  authorities 
organized  in  some  500  connnunities  under  the  United  States  Housing  Act  can 
do  more  than  any  single  undertaking  in  providing  good  homes  and  making 
possil)le  normal  family  life  to  millions  of  workers'  families. 

With  the  aid  and  guidance  of  the  Depai-tment  of  Agriculture,  the  rural 
housing  programs  of  the  United  States  Housing  Act  provides  good  hous- 
ing at  minimum  rents  on  the  farms,  making  eventual  home  ownership  possible. 
This  program  has  been  enthusiastically  received  by  farm  owners  and  tenant 
farmers  alike  in  such  States  as  Georgia  and  South  Carolina,  where  it  has 
already  been  inaugurated.  This  practical  program  reaching  and  giving  as- 
sistance to  our  lowest  income  farmers  and  providing  for  decent  but  simple 
housing  lor  their  families  must  be  assured  continuation  through  The  authori- 
zation of  additional  funds  under  the  United  States  Housing  Act. 

WOUI.D  COKTIXIE  F.VRM   SKCl  RITY   ADMINISTRATION  CAiMP  PROGRAM 

To  meet  the  most  immediate  needs  of  workers  who  have  already  become 
migrants,  the  American  F(>d(Mation  of  Labor  has  successfully  urged  adequate 
appropriations  of  the  continual  ion  of  the  migratory  labor  camps  program 
of  the  Farm  Security  Administratiim.  This  program  which  is  so  necessary  to 
meet  the  requirements  of  migrant  workers  and  which  has  done  so  much  to 
alleviate  the  suffering  of  migratory  farm  families  should  be  further  expanded. 

In  addition,  the  American  Federation  of  Labor  has  also  offered 
strong  opposition  to  the  proposed  curtaihnent  of  the  farm  tenant 
purchase  program.  This  program,  autliorized  by  the  Bankhead- 
Jones  Act,  during  the  first  2  years  of  its  operation  made  available 
$35,000,000  for  tenant  purchase  of  farm  land,  including  $6,500,000 
spent  for  construction  of  rural  housing  under  the  plan.  It  is  very 
simple  construction. 

Many  thousands  of  fai'uiers,  sharecroppers  and  their  families, 
w^ho  have  been  forced  oil'  the  land  during  the  past  decade,  turned  into 
migrants,  drifting  from  one  part  of  the  country  into  another  and 
fi'om  city  to  city  in  search  of  jobs  and  in  hope  of  economic  security. 

The  Bankhead-Jones  program,  by  making  available  loans  for  farm 
purchase  of  tenants,  has  proved  most  effective  in  checking  this  trend, 
by  anchoring  farm  families  on  the  land  it  becomes  possible  for  them 
to  own  and  cultivate,  and  by  nuiking  provision  for  the  construction 
of  simple  but  adequate  homes  in  good  repair. 

There  are  several  other  phases  I  should  like  to  cover,  many  of 
^^hicll  have  been  covei'ed  in  detail  already. 

In  addition  to  housing,  ]n-ovision  should  be  made  for  health  and 
medical  care  of  the  families  of  migratory  workers.  There  are  many 
})]iases  of  public  assistance  which  if  extended  and  properly  and 
uniformly  administered  Avould  provide  not  only  relief  to  migratory 
labor  but  also  remedy  of  the  conditions  which  perpetuate  it.  Such 
a  program  should  be  provided  as  a  matter  of  relief  also  to  the  extent 
to  which  the  migratoiy  labor  problem,  represents  continuance  of  the 
difficulty.  Provision  particularly  to  take  care  of  the  children  of 
migratory  workers  and  to  make  sure  that  those  children  will  have 
proper  medical  care  are  particularly  important  in  the  matter  of 
health  because  those  who  may  be  infected  with  disease  may  not  be 
able  to  secure  a  remedy  to  cure  that  disease  because  they  are  migrants 
and  because  they  have  no  means  of  getting  direct  health  protection 


INTKli  STATE  MIGRATION  3681 

when  they  are  roaming  around  the  country  and  are  liable  to  spread 
disease  in  a  community. 

AMERICAN  TEDEKATION   OF  LABOR   HACKS  <iUANT«-lN-AID 

The  American  Federation  of  Labor  suggests  that  to  this  end  your 
committee  recommend  to  Congress  a  Federal  program  of  grants-in- 
aid  to  States  and  of  uniform  State  standards  of  assistance  which 
would  niake  it  possible  to  deal  with  the  pi'oblem  nationally.  Most 
communities  left  to  cope  with  the  problem  single-handed  and  relying 
upon  their  resources  alone  can  find  no  real  solution. 

As  the  result  a  wall  of  resistance  laws  is  being  erected  in  the 
cities,  counties,  and  States  to  ward  off  the  indigent  migrants,  to 
conserve  expenditures,  and  to  fence  off  the  established  residences 
of  the  connnunity  by  thick  barbed  wire  of  resident  requirements  and 
other  protective  measures.  An  individual  community  or  State,  deal- 
ing with  the  problem  unaided  and  realizing  its  inability  to  find  even 
a  partial  remedy  tends  to  take  defensive  rather  than  remedial  mea- 
sures and  to  ward  off  rather  than  to  aid. 

It  may  be  that  one  State  will  w^ork  out  a  possible  pi-ogram  under 
present  conditions  that  will  not  solve  the  problem. 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  would  not  recommend  the  abolition  of  settle- 
ment laws? 

Mr.  Shishilin.  I  believe  a  recommendation  to  provide  for  dealing 
with  settlement  laws  and  to  bring  all  States  to  the  same  basis  would 
be  a  very  urgent  measure  to  take  care  of  that. 

Mr,  Parsons.  You  would  not  reconnnend  a  complete  abolition  of 
settlement  laws  ? 

Mr.  SmsHitiN.  Of  course,  settlement  laws  differ  from  State  to 
State.  There  are  some  provisions  in  some  States  which  are  part 
of  the  settlement  laws  which  would  be  done  away  with  if  the  set- 
tlement law  as  such  were  completely  abolished. 

Settlement  laws  are  the  result  of  an  era  long  gone.  The  basic 
restrictions  of  those  laws  now  have  to  be  eliminated  and  replaced 
with  provisions  that  realistically  take  care  of  the  problem  of  labor 
migi-ation. 

There  are  souie  laws  that  overlap  between  the  restrictions  on  the 
income  of  workers  as  between  one  State  and  another  State.  Those 
things  have  to  be  solved. 

POSSIBLE    SETTLEMENT   PROGRAM 

Mr,  Parsons.  Of  course.  Congress  has  no  power  to  limit  the  restric- 
tions of  the  States  as  to  settlement  laws,  but  if  we  have  a  program 
of  grants-in-aid  to  States,  Congress  could  set  up  as  a  qualification 
certahi  types  of  settlement  law,  and  we  might  gain  uniformly  in  that 
respect. 

Mr.  SiiisiiKiN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Your  recommendation  is  for  a  Federal  program  of 
aid  to  the  States? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  That  is  riirht. 


3682  INTERSTATE   MKIKATIOX 

Mr.  Parsons.  Woiikl  you  include  local  relief  agencies,  or  would 
that  be  for  the  care  of  migrants  not  ordinarily  residents  of  the 
State? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  It  seems  to  me  such  a  program  has  to  go  down  to 
the  local  communities  to  be  effective.  I  think  with  the  cooperation 
of  the  States  a  program  can  be  worked  out,  and  I  think  such  a 
program  can  be  worked  out  to  bring  relief  to  the  local  community, 
because  one  community  might  be  overburdened  with  one  problem 
with  which  they  have  to  deal,  and  must  rely  upon  machinery  which 
represents  the  support  of  the  entire  Nation.  It  has  to  fit  in  with 
the  program  of  the  entire  Nation. 

Mr.  Parsons.  If  Congress  should  create  such  an  organization,  what 
department  of  the  Government  should  it  be  placed  under  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  believe  that  to  the  extent  that  this  is  a  funda- 
mental problem  affecting  workers,  and  affecting  the  employment 
situation,  which  is  a  problem  that  the  Division  of  Labor  Standards 
has  given  a  great  deal  of  study  to — I  believe  that  the  administration 
could  be  most  effective  if  placed  in  the  Department  of  Labor.  I 
think  that  that  agency,  charged  with  those  duties,  would  be  the 
agency  in  which  that  activity  should  be  placed. 

Mr.  Parsons.  We  have  had  various  recommendations.  Some  recom- 
mend that  a  new  category  be  set  up  in  the  Social  Security  Board, 
where  grants-in-aid  to  the  States  could  be  handled  as  are  grants-in- 
aid  for  old-age  assistance. 

The  suggestion  was  made  the  other  day  that  the  administration 
of  it  might  be  placed  there,  with  a  joint  board  made  up  of  repre- 
sentatives of  the  Social  Security  Board,  of  the  Children's  Bureau, 
of  the  Department  of  Education  and  the  Department  of  Labor, 
and  that  they  might  be  united  in  one  coordinated  groujx  with  repre- 
sentatives from  tlie  Agricultural  Doi)artment  looking  after  farm 
security,  so  that  the  entire  program  would  be  coordinated  and  each 
department  of  Government  having  a  present  function,  more  or  le.'^s, 
in  such  a  program,  could  operate  in  a  coordinated  fashion. 

Mr.  SmsHiaN.  I  think  that  suggestion  has  some  merit  in  this 
respect,  that  that  would  place  the  operation  of  the  program  in  rela- 
tionship with  the  Employment  Service,  v,hich  is  in  the  Federal 
Security  Agency  at  the  present  time. 

But  I  think  some  of  the  other  phases  of  the  program  also  re<-oni- 
mend  its  being  placed  in  the  Department  of  Labor.  But  that  is  an 
administrative  problem,  as  to  which  I  believe  your  committee,  hav- 
ing heard  so  many  points  of  view  and  so  much  excellent  evidence 
as  to  the  actual  administrative  operation  of  the  suV)ject,  must  supply 
the  final  answer. 

COORDINATED   IMJARD  SUCiGESTKD 

Mr.  Parsons.  This  has  impressed  me,  that  a  coordinated  board, 
representative  of  the  various  bureaus  and  departments  interested  in 
this  problem,  might  be  the  best  answer,  with  the  administrative  head 
probably  under  Social  Security. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  think  that  would  be  a  very  good  solution,  but 
T  might  add  that  in  providing  such  a  solution  for  tliis  ty]:>e  of  proli- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3683 

lem  it  would  be  extremely  important  to  be  assured  also  that  there 
would  be  an  advisory  and  consultative  representative  on  such  an 
agency  for  labor,  because  labor  meets  this  problem  at  first  hand 
and  is  most  directly  affected  by  it. 

I  think  with  such  representation  a  great  deal  can  be  accomplished 
for  the  improvement  of  administration,  and  also  for  the  protection 
of  the  labor  interests  and  labor  standards. 

Mr.  Parsons.  There  is  no  question  but  what  a  representative  of 
labor  should  be  on  such  a  coordinated  board. 

The  Chairman.  We  have  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  to 
regulate  and  protect  the  free  flow  of  commodities  between  the  States. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  And  as  we  know,  that  is  a  powerful  organization. 
Do  you  not  think  it  is  about  time  we  had  something  to  protect  human 
interests  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Very  much  so.  Congressman.  And  I  think  that 
is  a  problem  that  can  be  tackled  at  the  present  time  and  something 
on  which  work  can  be  started. 

As  far  as  a  study  of  the  problem  is  concerned,  there  is  room  for  a 
continuing  committee  in  the  executive  branch  of  the  Government. 

So  far  as  technical  experts  are  concerned,  we  have  a  number  of 
competent  men,  some  of  whom  have  appeared  before  your  com- 
mittee, men  who  have  gone  into  the  question  in  great  detail  and 
who  have  presented  excellent  evidence,  and  they  are  competent  to 
present  the  social  and  economic  phases  of  it. 

I  think  the  subject  has  come  to  a  point  now  where  further  study 
is  necessary,  and  action  is  even  more  necessary,  and  that  is  why  I 
hope  this  committee  will  have  some  very  definite  recommendations 
to  make  in  the  near  future  so  that  at  the  next  session  of  Congress 
there  will  be  a  program  which  will  have  the  full  support  of  the 
American  Federation  of  Labor. 

PROBLEM  OF  UNEMPLOYMENT 

I  have  a  couple  of  more  points  in  that  connection.  One  of  the  things 
I  wanted  to  mention  in  this  connection,  for  the  consideration  of  the 
committee,  is  a  project  concerning  a  problem  that  is  broader  than  the 
migratory-worker  problem  itself.  That  is  the  problem  of  unemploy- 
ment. The  migratory  worker  is  a  product  of  lack  of  purchasing  power, 
which  is  fundamentally  unemployment,  to  a  large  extent. 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  there  are  two  classes  of  those  workers.  We  have 
found  that  there  is  quite  a  large  group  of  migrant  agricultural  workers 
that  are  really  bringing  more  revenue  into  the  family  than  the  average 
agricultural  worker. 

Then  we  have  the  other  group  that  is  constantly  on  the  move,  seek- 
ing employment,  and  which  often  becomes  entirely  destitute.  Migra- 
tion is  quite  desirable  and  is  absolutely  necessary  under  the  present 
system  of  agricultural  production,  especially  in  connection  with  vege- 
tables, fruits,  and  things  of  that  kind.  But  the  thing  that  we  are  pri- 
marily concerned  with  is  the  large  group  of  destitute  people  going  from 
State  to  State. 


260370— 41— pt. 


3584  INTERSTATE  AlIGRATION 

Mr.  Shishkin.  That  is  correct.  Earlier  in  my  statement  I  said  that 
labor  migration,  as  such,  under  the  present  system  and  organization  is 
normal,  and  with  the  developments  in  industry  such  as  have  taken 
place,  some  substantial  measure  of  migratory  labor  will  continue,  and 
it  is  clearly  a  thing  to  be  expected,  as  such. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Not  only  in  agriculture,  but  in  industry,  also? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Parsons.  We  are  being  faced  with  that  right  now. 

In  the  national-defense  program,  in  finding  the  necessary  type  of 
skilled  workers  to  go  into  high-speed  production  immediately,  that  will 
naturally  dislocate  a  large  number  of  families  in  the  United  States. 
Then,  if  that  should  be  suddenly  stopped,  there  will  be  a  further  dis- 
location, and  they  must  redistribute  themselves,  or  migrate  to  their 
original  homes,  or  somewhere  else.  So.  we  are  having  and  will  continue 
to  have  a  thorough  test  of  that,  to  meet  the  needs  of  an  industrial 
program. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  This  will  probably  extend  further  than  that,  because 
at  the  end  of  defense  production  there  will  be  a  return  flow,  which  will 
provide  a  further  dislocation  and  will  have  a  tremendous  effect  on 
workers  and  on  the  communities.  That  is  one  of  the  most  vital  things 
to  give  attention  to  at  this  particular  time. 

Referring  to  the  basic  causes  of  unemployment  and  to  the  enormous 
flow  of  migratory  labor,  having  millions  of  workers  on  the  road,  I 
think  we  all  agree  that  unemployment,  to  the  extent  that  it  does  seem 
to  be  a  danger,  whenever  we  go  back  to  the  normal  extent  of  unem- 
ployment within  the  framework  of  our  activity  now,  will  be  as  large  or 
larger  than  when  we  started  defense  production. 

Our  unemployment  in  recent  months  was  around  8,000,000  workers, 
and  we  have  probably  employed  anothei-  million  since  then. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Of  what  ages  are  these  people? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  These  are  of  the  employable  age.  They  do  not  in- 
clude children  under  16.    > 

One  of  the  proposals  in  connection  with  the  financing  of  the  defense 
production  has  in  it  attempts  to  deal  with  the  unemployment  problem, 
and  in  connection  with  v  at  w^e  have  to  offer  as  one  of  the  major 
measures  the  direct  loan  system  from  Federal  funds  to  make  this 
possible.  The  Reconstruction  Finance  Corporation  has  operated  on 
that  basis  over  a  period  of  years.  AYe  are  now  hnancing  industries, 
especially  the  expansion  of  defense  industries,  through  direct  loans 
of  Federal  money  to  industry,  and  I  think  what  we  propose  could 
be  done  by  the  utilization  directly  of  the  funds  from  the  accumulation 
of  savings  in  the  banks,  through  local  institutions,  which  are  not 
loaning  private  funds,  which  really  are  the  crux  of  the  unemployment 
problem.  The  lack  of  investment  loans  last  year  was  admittecl  to  be 
a  large  source  of  trouble  that  prevented  expansion.  Of  course,  such  a 
loan  for  industrial  expansion  is  necessary  as  an  innnediate  method, 
but  it  will  come  back  to  us  in  the  form  of  taxes  and  economic  burdens 
later  on. 

utilize  private  investment 

And  the  suggestion  is  a  simple  one.  Y^hy  not,  instead  of  making 
use  of  this  great  accumulation  of  funds,  private  investment  funds 


intp:kstatk  migkation  3685 

that  are  there,  but  as  to  which  investors  are  not  willing  to  assume  the 
risk  of  the  uncertainty  of  the  situation,  give  that  stimulus  and  make 
possible  the  utilization  of  that  money  under  a  plan,  under  the  Recon- 
struction P'inance  Corporation,  based  on  the  simple  principle  of  the 
Federal  Housing  Administration  of  insurance,  to  a  certain  extent, 
depending  on  the  amount  of  the  risk  and  the  assurance  of  the  produc- 
tive possibilities  over  a  period  of  time  as  a  result  of  these  loans,  made 
by  a  Federal  agency,  and  have  that  administered  by  the  Reconstruction 
Finance  Corporation,  which  has  a  large  staff  of  investigators,  and 
have  the  Federal  Government  see  to  it  that  each  extension  is  given 
the  assurance  of  the  Federal  Government  being  satisfied  that  this 
can  be  sustained  on  an  operating  basis. 

That  will  make  possible  the  expansion  of  industry  on  a  sound 
basis.  The  Federal  Government,  in  return,  will  have  the  assurance 
of  continued  operation,  in  the  first  place,  and,  second,  that  the  ex- 
pansion is  not  of  the  type  of  the  runaway  shop,  and  will  maintain 
basic  minimum  standaixls  of  competition  and  minimum  labor  stand- 
ards in  the  industry,  so  it  will  be  a  part  of  the  industry.  It  will  not 
be  a  destructive  expansion ;  it  will  be  an  expansion  that  will  be  a  help, 
and  it  will  assure  a  stable  growth  of  employment  opportunities. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Then  that  would  be  rather  setting  up  a  reserve  for 
the  future,  would  it  not?  The  savings  are  a  reserve" for  the  indi- 
vidual for  the  future.  You  spoke  of  savings.  It  amounts  to  savings 
in  hours  being  guaranteed  by  the  Government  on  the  same  basis? 

Mr.  Shisiikin.  That  is  right. 

]SIr.  Parsons.  The  suggestion  has  been  made  to  me,  coming  from 
Illinois,  that  we  ought  to  have  in  that  State  a  tax  on  oil,  or  on  the 
oil  industry,  that  it  has  taken  our  natural  resources  away,  and  that 
when  the  pools  are  eventually  exhausted,  and  that  great  wealth  has 
gone,  we  should  have  a  reserve  fund  set  up  now  by  taxing  the  pro- 
duction  of  that  basic  mineral,  just  as  some  of  the  western  States, 
after  the  large  production  had  gone  did  set  up  such  a  reserve  going  to 
the  State,  for  the  State  to  use  as  a  reserve  for  future  needs  of  the 
State,  after  the  industry  had  gone,  ' 

The  reconnnendation  you  are  making  ■  somewhat  in  line  with 
that  principle,  not  only  setting  up  a  reserAe  for  present  operations, 
but  for  the  future. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  It  is  basically  that,  although,  of  course,  as  in  con- 
nection with  the  Federal  Housing  Administration  there  is  no  actual 
reserve  set  up  as  such.  It  is  simply  an  authorization  to  them  for 
protection,  for  the  assumption  of  that  large  risk, 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  it  also  can  be  used  as  a  revolving  fund  to  help 
others. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Parsons,  And  you  would  suggest  that  in  comiection  with  mak- 
ing such  private  loans  directly  to  the  individual  workers? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  That  is  right.  One  of  the  great  problems  is  thsit 
there  is  a  great  accumulation  of  investors'  funds,  and  the  investor  is 
unwilling  to  invest  without  the  assurance  that  the  operation  will  be 
continuous,  and  if  he  has  such  an  assurance  by  the  Federal  Govern- 
ment he  will  be  willing  to  take  the  risk,  and  the  industry  will  be  able  to 


3ggg  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

go  out,  as  needed,  into  self-sustaining  work,  which  can  be  developed, 
and  by  the  development  of  a  system  of  that  kind  we  can  do  away  with 
the  great  burden  of  debt  and  taxation  imposed  by  the  necessary 
financing  of  the  defense  program. 

MIGRANT  STUDY  BY  AMERICAN   FEDERATION   OF  LABOR 

In  conclusion,  I  want  to  point  out  that  the  sixtieth  annual  conven- 
tion of  the  American  Federation  of  Labor,  held  at  NeAv  Orleans  last 
month,  has  given  extended  consideration  to  the  problem  of  migratory 
labor  and  has  authorized  the  executive  council  of  the  American  Fed- 
eration of  Labor  to  make  a  thorough  study  "of  the  problem  presented 
by  the  migratory  and  transient  workers." 

When  there  is  any  further  information  which  results  from  that  and 
which  is  brought  forth  from  our  affiliated  unions,  we  will  be  glad  to 
-place  that  at  the  disposal  of  the  committee  at  any  time. 

The  convention  also  voted  unanimously  that  such  measures  be  pre- 
pared as  will  safeguard  and  protect  the  social  and  civic  rights  and 
welfare  of  the  migratory  workers  with  the  view  that  a  permanent  and 
workable  solution  to  this  broad  problem,  reestablishing  tlie  migratory 
workers  in  an  economically  sound  community  life,  be  found. 

The  problem  of  the  migratory  worker  has  become  a  challenge  to  the 
entire  community  and  is  of  vital  concern  to  organized  labor.  The 
American  Federation  of  Labor  actively  supported  the  authorization 
by  Congress  of  House  Resolution  No.  63,  which  made  the  work  of  the 
Tolan  committee  possible.  Your  committee  has  already  established  a 
notable  record.  Labor  is  confident  that  a  constructive  program  will 
result  when  its  work  is  concluded. 

Mr.  Parsons.  How  do  you  arrive  at  your  fig-ures  on  unemployment? 
We  have  had  submitted  various  statistics  that  vary  from  one  to  six 
or  seven  million.  I  should  like  to  know  how  you  arrive  at  your  esti- 
mate of  the  present  number  of  unemployed. 

DETERMINING   NUMBER  OF  UNEMPLOYED 

Mr.  Shishkin.  We  have  published  a  description  of  our  method, 
which  I  will  be  glad  to  submit  for  the  record. 

I  might  say  there  are  perhaps  four  basic  estimates  that  are  con- 
sidered as  sound,  of  which  ours  holds  the  middle  ground.  The  Alex- 
ander Hamilton  Institute,  of  New  York,  has  carried  an  estimate  for 
a  long  period  of  time  which  gives  a  higher  figure  than  ours,  and  the 
figure  of  the  National  Industrial  Conference  Board  is  lower  than  ours. 

Some  difference  is  due  to  the  definition  of  the  term  "unemployed." 
If  you  count  the  Work  Projects  Administration  worker  as  employed, 
he  is  employed  in  Government  work,  but  for  our  purposes  we  are 
counting  those  employeees  normally  in  private  industry. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  from  age  i6  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Parsons.  To  age  65? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  No;  all  of  those  in  the  labor  market  seeking  em- 
ployment opportunities. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3687 

For  our  purpose  it  is  necessary  to  find  out  how  many  of  those  have 
gone  to  private  employment,  and  that  is  why  we  define  our  unemploy- 
ment, so  as  to  include  those  working-  on  Work  Projects  Administration 
projects  and  other  public  projects  of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Would  you  say,  as  of  October  1,  that  number  was 
7,000,000? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Our  approximate  estimate  for  October  1  is  about 
8,100,000,  and  with  a  rate  of  reemployment  of  about  500,000,  the  figure 
for  that  month  was  a  little  over  7,000,000,  on  the  basis  of  our  estimate. 
At  the  rate  it  is  going  now,  by  December  1941  we  will  have  only  one 
and  one-half  million,  on  the  basis  of  the  present  estimate. 

That  does  not  mean  that  there  is  all  there  will  be,  because  the  defense 
industry  only  draws  in  one  particular  kind  of  worker. 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  their  employment  is  at  least  for  part  time,  whereas 
other  workers  are  employed  for  full  time  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Parsons.  About  how  many  are  there  of  unemployables  who  are 
idle? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Of  course,  the  term  "unemployable"  is  a  very  difficult 
one  to  pin  down.  I  have  been  told  that  Chinese  representatives  in 
this  country  have  said  that  there  could  not  be  any  such  thing,  because 
deaf,  dumb,  and  blind  men  in  China,  employed  in  the  Chinese  baths, 
who  can  only  do  such  a  thing  as  scratch  the  backs  of  customers,  are 
considered  employed  workers.  The  housewife  is  considered  employed 
by  them. 

Also,  there  is  a  great  deal  of  difference  in  the  approach.  If  you 
define  it  on  the  census  basis  of  those  unemployed  and  unable  to  work 
because  they  are  handicapped,  I  think  the  figure  would  be  quite  small. 

In  1929,  when,  in  some  respects,  we  had  persons  unemployed  who 
accepted  financial  benefit,  there  were  about  a  million  and  a  half  un- 
employed. But  of  those  there  were  a  number  of  bona  fide  unem- 
ployed. Some  might  be  unemployables.  As  President  Green  has 
frequently  said,  to  determine  the  extent  of  that  would  be  a  very 
valuable  thing. 

Mr.  Parsons.  If  we  were  to  prescribe  the  same  regulations  for  the 
public  at  large  as  during  the  1920's,  if  you  had  used  the  same  descrip- 
tion of  people  as  to  employment,  we  would  probably  have  had  four  or 
five  million  unemployed  during  the  1920's,  on  the  same  basis? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  No;  I  think  that  is  a  high  figure;  I  do  not  believe 
we  would  have  had  that  many,  on  the  basis  of  our  estimate. 

PRODUCTION  AT  PEAK 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  production  is  at  the  highest  peak.  Someone  made 
the  statement  before  the  committee  the  other  day  that  in  private  in- 
dustry production  is  at  the  highest  peak  in  the  history  of  the  country. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Yes,  that  is  correct;  but  I  think  this  is  one  of  the 
very  significant  facts  in  connection  with  that  that  should  be  on  the 
lecord  of  this  committee,  and  that  is  that  production  does  not  utilize 
a  full  number  of  workers. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Why  not? 


3688 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Mr.  Shishkin.  Because  technological  changes  cause  changes  in  the 
method  of  production,  because  industry  is  now  more  efficient  than  it 
has  been.  Take  the  1919  factory  production  as  100  productivity,  and 
you  will  find  that  in  1939  that  figure  rose  to  228,  or  an  increase  of  128 
percent.  That  is  a  tremendous  increase,  and  it  gives  a  clue  to  the 
comparative  situation  today. 

Mr.  Parsons.  In  other  words,  one  person  was  putting  out  128  per- 
cent more  in  productivity  than  the  same  man  was  doing  in  1919  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Would  you  say  that  that  is  where  a  large  portion  of 
tlie  unemployment  comes  from  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  A  great  deal  of  the  unemployment  is  technological 
unemployment.  Of  course,  appraising  that  is  difficult,  because  it 
does  make  possible  industrial  expansion,  irrespective  of  some  of  the 
people  who  have  been  thrown  out.  Some  of  those  changes  eliminate 
skills,  so  that  those  Avorkers  in  technological  unemployment  have  no 
further  place  in  the  business. 

Mr.  Parsons.  A  significant  statement  was  made  before  the  com- 
mittee the  other  day  to  the  effect  that  although  the  steel  output  was 
so  much  higher  than  at  another  given  time  that  there  were  still 
38,000  steel  workers  still  unemployed  because  of  technological 
changes. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Those  are  very  important  in  the  type  of  some  steel 
production  in  which  large  crews  of  workers  that  have  been  employed 
are  now  almost  completely  eliminated. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Has  the  American  Federation  of  Labor  ever  recom- 
mended a  tax  on  machinery  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  No  ;  it  has  not.  It  has  opposed  a  tax  on  machinery. 
We  do  not  conceive  that  that  will  be  the  solution.  We  are  a  nation 
surrounded  by  nations  which  also  have  technological  improvements. 
If  we  slow  down  our  own  pace  we  would  only  handicap:)  ourselves, 
and  that  would  not  be  a  farsighted  thing  to  do. 

Mr.  Parsons.  If  we  were  at  peace  and  all  nations  were  on  a  pro- 
ductive basis,  with  free  interchange  of  goods  of  every  kind,,  with 
the  low  labor  standards  in  other  countries,  could  America  still  com- 
pete in  the  importation  of  agricultural  and  industrial  goods? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  It  depends  on  what  nations  are  involved.  Soine 
nations  will  not  have  any  agricultural  goods,  and  competition  with 
other  markets  would  present  special  problems  there. 

In  view  of  the  present  situation,  as  far  as  agricultural  goods  and 
industrial  plant  products  are  concerned,  I  think  in  a  very  short  time 
America  will  be  able  to  supply  the  world  with  agricultural  and 
industrial  goods  and  will  be  the  source  of  the  supply  of  agricultural 
and  industrial  commodities  of  the  world,  regardless  of  prices,  because 
it  will  take  years  to  bring  back  the  productive  economy  of  Europe. 
Mr.  Parsons.  And  provide  enough  money  for  rehabilitation? 


LABEL  AMERICAN  GOODS 


Mr.  Shishkin.  As  far  as  the  market  is  concerned,  I  think  that  is 
true,  and,  of  course,  I  think  it  will  have  the  burden  of  supplying 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3689 

some  of  it  without  any  such  loans,  and  I  think  if  any  such  supplies 
are  sent  abroad,  whether  on  an  economic  basis  of  purchase  or  not,  to 
relieve  the  population  of  Europe,  I  think  every  article  and  every 
pound  of  food  sent  there  should  be  stamped  on  the  face  of  it 
''Made  in  the  United  States  of  America,  a  product  of  democracy," 
and  if  the  people  of  Elurope  find  those  things  comino-  to  them  from 
a  democracy,  that  will  be  a  tremendous  antidote  to  the  tons  of  propa- 
t^anda  from  a  dictatorshij). 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Shishkin,  you  have  made  a  statement  which 
I  consider  a  very  valuable  contribution  to  the  committee  in  its  con- 
sideration of  this  subject. 

Your  position  is  that  we  cannot  stop  this  mioration  between  States, 
and  you  do  not  want  to  stop  it,  but  you  think  it  should  be  carefully 
considered,  and  if  possible  reasonably  controlled  migration. 

Mr,  Shishkin.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  You  appear  today  representing  the  American 
Federation  of  Labor  in  the  consideration  of  this  great  national  prob- 
lem. Does  it  not  appear  strange  to  you  that  for  over  a  century  and 
a  half  of  the  existence  of  this  problem  practically  nothing  has  been 
done  about  it  except  what  some  of  the  States  have  done;  that  the 
P'ederal  Government  has  done  practically  nothing  about  the  prob- 
lem ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  It  is  an  amazing  thing.  Of  course,  w^e  have  been 
a  nation  on  the  move,  and  have  been  caught  in  the  sweep  of  our 
own  growth. 

The  Chairman.  I  think  if  we  can  give  the  people  authentic  in- 
formation from  the  Federal  Government  as  to  the  extent  of  the  jobs 
and  an  inventory  of  the  jobs,  we  have  made  a  pretty  good  start. 

^^ery  briefly,  I  want  to  ask  you  this  question :  In  what  way  do 
you,  representing  the  American  Federation  of  Labor,  get  informa- 
tion as  to  migration? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  We  have,  of  course,  a  network  of  some  800  central 
labor  unions,  which  report  on  the  situations  in  local  communities, 
and  periodically  we  send  questionnaires  in  reference  to  various  urgent 
problems,  that  are  framed  on  the  basis  of  reports  which  come  in. 

The  Chairman.  Are  those  reports  limited  to  union  members  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  No;  because  in  this  particular  problem  you  can 
very  easily  see  that  the  problem  of  the  migration  of  workers,  w-hether 
union  or  nonunion,  hits  practically  every  labor  market  in  a  given 
community,  so  the  reports  come  covering  all  phases  of  the  problem. 

Also,  we  have  a  substantial  organization  of  workers  in  Florida  and 
California  who  are  engaged  in  processes  in  which  there  is  highly 
seasonal  production,  and  in  which  there  is  a  great  deal  of  migration 
among  the  workers  themselves. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  gather  from  your  statement  that  you  do  not  con- 
sider that  there  is  a  shortage  of  skilled  labor  at  the  present  time. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  There  is  a  shortage  in  some  few  cases.  In  some 
plants  where  there  is  a  large  number  of  employees  there  may  be  a 
shortage  of  some  skilled  labor.  But  in  the  basic  operations  there 
is  no  sTiortage  at  the  present  time. 


3ggQ  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  note  your  statement  relating^  to  the  control  of 
labor  agents  or  private  employment  agencies.  You  said  they  were 
making  more  or  less  of  a  racket  out  of  it,  taking  money  from  the 
employee  and  also  from  the  employer. 

I  know  nothing  about  this  except  what  I  have  been  getting  in 
letters,  but  there  has  been  a  great  deal  of  complaining  about  the  labor 
situation  among  all  of  these  defense  developments,  where  laborers 
have  gone  to  get  employment  but  have  been  informed  that  they 
have  to  be  a  member  of  a'labor  union.  When  they  applied  for  mem- 
bership, ordinarily,  to  come  in,  they  would  have  to  pay  $40,  $50,  or 
$60,  as  an  initiation  fee,  or  pay  a  great  part  of  it,  and  in  many 
instances  it  has  been  charged  that  the  amount  of  the  initiation  fee 
had  been  sharply  advanced  since  these  projects  have  been  started. 

I  loiow  nothing  about  it  except  from  letters.  If  that  is  true, 
would  you  not  think  that  that  is  an  imposition  upon  the  laborers, 
the  same  as  a  private  employment  agency  which  should  be  curbed? 

LABOR  UNION  FEES 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  am  glad  you  asked  me  that  question,  because  that 
was  one  of  the  questions  considered  at  our  convention,  and  one  that  is 
difficult  to  answer  under  normal  circumstances,  because  the  answer  is 
largely  supplied  by  the  headlines,  and  the  headlines  are  usually  far 
away  from  the  facts. 

In  the  first  place,  the  high  initial  fees  are  a  result  of  this  situation. 
National  unions,  in  some  instances,  set  the  initiation  fees  nationally. 
In  the  majority  of  unions  the  locals  are  placed  on  a  more  or  less 
autonomous  basis  so  far  as  the  setting  of  fees  is  concerned. 

But  the  problem  has  developed  in  several  isolated,  few  instances 
which  have  been  given  a  lot  of  publicity.  To  prevent  it  the  unions 
have  immediately  taken  steps  to  correct  that  particular  situation.  As 
to  the  $40,  $50,  and  $80  fees,  I  think  that  reflects  one  instance  where  a 
company's  local  charged  $80.  The  fees  do  not  run  that  high  in  the 
building  trades.  There  are  unions  that  charge  a  $25  fee  to  mechanics 
whose  weekly  wage  runs  more  than  $25  a  week.  If  his  work  is  con- 
tinuous and  he  goes  somewhere  else,  he  is  given  a  transfer  card  and  he 
gets  the  benefit  of  that.  I  think  that  $25  fee  is  reasonable,  but  I  think 
those  higher  fees  are  unreasonable  and  unfair. 

Let  me  give  you  one  example.  The  president  of  the  Hod  Carriers' 
Union  has  reported  to  the  convention  that  he  has  set  up  a  committee 
that  is  under  the  international,  which  assumed  full  control,  although 
previously  the  local  unions  have  had  authority  to  set  up  their  own 
initiation  fees,  and  from  now  on  they  have  given  the  right  to  the 
international  to  set  those  fees.  In  that  union  you  may  be  sure  there 
will  be  no  exorbitant  initiation  fees  on  defense  projects.  Action  of 
similar  kind  has  been  taken  by  other  unions. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  think  in  some  instances  where  people  have  gone  to 
Fort  McClellan  to  do  work  on  that  project,  in  the  course  of  construc- 
tion there ;  they  were  required  to  pay  $40.  At  the  same  time  they  could 
have  joined  a  local  union  at  home  Jfor  $20.  I  have  heard  of  cases 
where  they  have  put  it  as  high  as  $80. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3691 

It  seems  to  me  that  in  a  great  many  instances  that  has  worked  a 
hardship  on  some  of  tliose  workers.  I  think  there  is  some  deferment 
of  about  half  of  the  amount,  but  they  have  had  to  pay  one-half  down. 
You  can  see  how  that  works  a  great  hardship  on  a  great  many  of  those 
workers  who  were  unemployed. 

The  thought  has  occurred  to  me  that  some  of  these  people  who  are 
being  brought  in  to  get  employment  probably  would  never  become 
good  union  members,  because  probably  after  the  emergency  they  will 
drop  out  of  the  union  and  go  back  to  work  on  the  farm  or  into  the 
country  and  work  in  the  same  jobs  they  were  in  before,  and  probably 
would  never  become  what  you  might  call  good,  stable  union  members 
and  bear  the  earmarks  of  a  price  paid  for  the  privilege  of  working  on 
these  defense  projects. 

I  am  glad  to  hear  you  say  that  your  convention  did  give  considerable 
thought  to  that,  because  it  might  easily  get  out  of  control. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  want  to  impress  upon  you  the  fact  that  where  there 
are  those  few  corners  to  be  cleaned  out,  labor  is  cleaning  them  out,  and 
I  think  its  ability  to  clean  its  own  house  is  sufficient,  and  that  there  is 
no  need  of  any  intervention,  as  the  development  of  the  facts  will  prove. 

As  for  the  employment  agency,  whose  sole  source 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  have  no  sympathy  with  them. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  appreciate  that  fully.  I  do  think  there  is  no  way 
of  cleaning  up  that  situation,  but  I  think  there  is  very  pressing  need 
for  action. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  spoke  of  the  construction  work  near  Memphis 
in  which  the  contractor  advertised  for  labor. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  For  a  plumber. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  would  you  get  around  that  ?  If  he  needs  the 
labor,  how  would  you  get  around  that  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  We  have  established  a  working  relationship  with  the 
United  States  Employment  Service. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  The  Employment  Service  has  in  numerous  instances 
admitted  that  in  only  a  few  isolated  places  was  it  really  doing  a  com- 
plete job. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  think  they  have  not  so  far  coped  with  the  situation. 
I  realize  that  what  you  say  is  desirable. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  want  to  point  out  that  those  20  plumbers,  or  a  large 
number  of  them,  are  still  unemployed.  It  could  have  made  those  avail- 
able very  easily. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  The  advertisement  was  by  the  contractor. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Yes;  of  course.  But  they  could  have  made  those 
available  at  the  requisition  of  the  United  States  Employment  Service 
and  even  furnished  transportation,  if  plumbers  were  not  available. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  it  not  true  that  on  most  of  the  defense  projects 
they  are  working  in  rather  close  harmony  with  the  unions  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  must  say  that  the  record  today  covering  a  large 
volume  of  work  has  been  truly  notable  in  that  respect. 


oago  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

GREAT  PLAINS  LACK  INDUSTRIES 

Mr.  Curtis.  Were  yon  present  at  our  hearing  this  morning  when  the 
young  man  from  the  Glenn  Martin  Co.  testified '? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  No  ;  I  was  not. 

Mr.  Curtis.  We  have  a  situation  in  many  parts  o±  the  country,  par- 
ticularly in  the  Great  Plains  States  and  agricultural  areas,  where  there 
is  a  decided  lack  of  industrial  operations  and  an  oversupply  of  avadable 
labor,  with  a  great  need  for  supplemental  income  m  those  areas,  and 
they  are  very  much  interested  in  securing  national-defense  industries 

there. 

I  find,  in  the  quest  after  such  industries,  there  is  another  school  of 
thought  that  feels  that  these  new  plants  should  go  to  coast  towns  in  the 
industrial  East,  rather  than  reach  out  into  the  agricultural  States. 

I  am  referring  to  the  Great  Plains  States— Kansas,  the  Dakotas,  and 
Nebraska— which  have  lost  such  large  numbers  of  people.  What  do 
you  think  about  that  controversy,  as  to  wdiere  those  plants  should  go? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  should  like  to  say  this.  Congressman,  that  there  are 
two  phases  of  defense  production  that  should  be  distinguished,  one  the 
production  of  such  essential  and  urgent  and  important  things  as  air- 
craft, in  which  the  major  requirement  for  equipment  to  develop  new 
plant  capacity  is  in  the  machine-shop  production  of  parts  necessary 
for  the  construction  of  planes,  and  in  the  machine-shop  industry  there 
is  a  definite  seasonality.  There  are  many  shops  now,  which  are  avail- 
able, and  in  which  there  is  slight  modification  of  equipment  needed  to 
enable  them  to  produce  airplanes.  I  think  in  that  type  of  establish- 
ment it  would  be  a  simple  matter  to  go  to  the  coast  towns  and  use  the 
power  facilities  and  utilities  available  there. 

There  is  another  type  of  defense  production  which  is  also  essential 
and  necessary,  and  that  is  the  program  of  developing  equipment,, 
clothing,  and  barracks  for  the  Army  training  program.  We  have  a 
long-range  plan  of  production  that  is  a  part  of  the  defense  program. 
That  is  an  equipment  problem  rather  than  a  money  problem. 

I  think  there  is  a  type  of  production  which  can  be  planned  and 
developed  in  such  a  way  because  it  is  known  what  the  requirements 
will  be  in  1942  at  that  particular  point. 

We  cannot  go  into  an  agricultural  area  and  do  it  in  a  week  or  two; 
it  takes  time. 

In  those  places  where  we  can  take  time  to  plan,  particularly  about 
post-emergencv  problems,  I  think  it  will  be  a  very  vital  and  valuable 
thing  to  have  planning  which  would  lead  up  to  that.  It  is  particularly 
important  to  have  that  type  of  defense  production  there  because  that  is 
a  type  which  has  to  do\vith  industrial  production  directly,  that  can 
be  utilized  after  the  emergency  is  over  and  become  the  nucleus  of  a 
groAving  industrial  unit,  after' the  actual  defense  production  is  over 
with. 

industrial  DECENTRALIZATION 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Do  you  mean  decentralization  ? 
Mr.  Curtis.  Yes. 


INTERSTATE  MIGKATION  3693 

Mr.  SiiisHKiN.  Well,  I  think  decentralization,  of  course,  has  shown 
a  marked  tendency  in  the  industry  in  the  past  few  years,  and,  I  think, 
as  a  matter  of  defense  planning-,  I  think  the  location  of  plants  in 
dilferent  areas  is  desirable,  and,  I  think,  from  a  technological  stand- 
point, we  have  found  in  rubber,  automobiles,  and  other  instances  that 
smaller  plants  are  productively  more  efficient.  And  there  is  also  the 
question  of  transportation. 

I  think  decentralization,  as  a  mere  fetish  or  as  a  means  of  affecting 
established  standards  of  industry,  might  be  an  evil  in  a  lot  of  situa- 
tions, but  I  think  within  the  framework  of  the  present  defense  pro- 
duction those  things  can  be  taken  care  of. 

I  think  it  would  be  a  good  thing  to  have  the  production  of  goods 
and  services  where  they  can  be  placed  to  the  best  advantage. 

Mr.  CuRTTS.  Does  the  organization  you  represent  and  speak  for  this 
morning  oppose  defense  industries  in  agricultural  areas  and  favor 
them  in  industrial  areas  because  you  may  have  a  market  in  industrial 
areas  that  is  anxious  to  secure  labor? 

Mr.  SiiisTiKiN.  As  far  as  the  availability  of  labor  and  housing  in 
the  defense  industries  is  concerned,  and  the  availability  of  workers, 
in  giving  employment  to  our  membership,  of  course,  our  organization 
has  an  interest  in  locating  industries  in  those  places.  On  the  question 
as  such,  I  do  not  believe  that  the  American  Federation  of  Labor  has 
taken  any  action  on  that,  and  I  am  unable  to  answer  it  directly. 

I  can  say  this:  That  if  there  is  any  need  for  the  location  of  any 
industry  that  is  dictated  by  the  elements  of  national  defense  and 
sound  planning,  as  a  help  to  industrial  growth,  the  American  Federa- 
tion of  Labor  will  support  that.  But  I  think  it  is  difficult  to  answer 
that  in  a  general  way  without  giving  it  further  and  full  consideration. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  know  whether  labor's  representative  on  the 
Defense  Commission  adheres  to  such  a  policy? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  You  mean  Mr.  Hillman? 

Mr.  Curtis.  Yes. 

Mr,  SiiTSTiKiN.  No ;  I  do  not  know  what  his  views  are  on  that. 

Mr,  OsMERS.  I  would  like  to  go  back  a  bit  to  what  I  consider  to  be 
the  most  novel  of  the  propositions  you  have  made,  namely,  concern- 
ing the  reemplo^nnent  finance  program.  I  can  see  a  great  deal  of 
difficulty  in  putting  such  a  program  into  operation  because  of  the 
difference  between  industrial  investment,  as  you  have  referred  to  it, 
and  investment  such  as  is  represented  by  the  Federal  Housing 
Administration. 

Do  you  believe  the  Federal  Government  w^ould  be  wise  to  institute 
a  policy  of  encouraging  industry  in  a  general  w-ay  rather  than  to 
guarantee  industrial  investments? 

PARTIAL  GUARANTY  OF  INVESTMENTS 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  do  not  propose  the  guaranty  of  the  entire  invest- 
ment, but  only  a  partial  guaranty. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Only  a  portion  of  it? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Yes.  I  wish  to  point  out  that  the  Reconstruction 
Finance  Corporation,  in  several  periods,  has  maintained  an  extensive 


3594  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

program  of  direct  financing  of  industrial  enterprises.  We  have  had 
an  instance  of  a  large  portion  of  the  textile  industry  being  backed 
by  the  Reconstruction  Finance  Corporation  in  its  entire  financial 
structure,  and  it  has  worked.  If  that  is  so,  and  it  has  been  tested, 
I  do  not  see  why,  in  many  specific  situations  where  there  is  a  Federal 
activity  involved,  the  Reconstruction  Finance  Corporation  cannot 
insure  the  loan. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Of  course,  the  Reconstruction  Finance  Corporation 
has  acted  as  a  banker,  although  performing  no  function  of  a  private 
banking  institution,  except  that  they  have  used  Government  money 
to  do  it, 

Mr.  Shishkin.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  can  see  some  disadvantage  in  such  a  proposal, 
unless  they  have  worked  it  out  very  carefully;  I  think  you  might 
find  a  further  elimination  of  private  banking  from  the  American 
business  scene.  Private  banking  today  is  at  its  lowest  ebb  in  the 
history  of  the  country,  and  the  rate  of  return  on  bank  deposits  is 
the  best  evidence  of  that.  The  reason  is  the  banks'  original  function 
of  acting  as  a  bank  has  been  somewhat  thwarted,  and  it  has  been 
used  as  a  collecting  agency  to  reinvest  its  deposits  in  Government 
securities. 

But,  changing  the  subject  for  a  moment  to  discuss  the  effect  of 
world  peace  on  the  interstate  migration  of  destitute  citizens  of  the 
United  States,  what  is  your  opinion  on  that? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  As  I  pointed  out  earlier  in  my  statement,  I  think 
that  is  the  most  critical  period  we  are  facing.  We  will  have  an  era 
of  readjustment  or  relocation  of  industry,  and  the  expansion  of 
industry  will  be  such  that  there  will  be  a,  flow  of  labor  into  new 
ghost  towns. 

I  think,  in  connection  with  every  study  of  defense  production, 
consideration  should  be  given  as  to  what  is  going  to  happen  to  a 
project,  what  is  going  to  happen  to  the  elements  of  production  and 
the  equipment,  and  the  workers  trained  to  do  that  work,  when  it  is 
there. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Do  you  feel  that  the  great  difficulties  that  will  arrive 
with  peace,  the  economic  difficulties,  will  have  to  be  settled  by  a  change 
in  our  basic  form  of  government,  even  if  it  were  temporary,  where  we 
would  have  at  least  an  economic  dictatorship  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  think.  Congressman,  I  pointed  that  out  in  my 
statement,  that  if  we  now  start  going  to  work  on  preventive  measures, 
and  go  at  the  thing  in  a  democratic  way,  without  compulsion,  and 
mobilize  the  democratic  method  to  provide  safeguards,  I  think  we 
will  be  able  to  face  that  situation  without  havmg  to  resort  to  an  eco- 
nomic dictatorship.  But  I  think  if  we  should  wait  and  drift  and 
muddle  through  defense  production,  the  crisis  will  be  such  that  we  may 
not  be  able  to  cope  with  it  through  the  normal  channels,  so  I  urge 
the  taking  of  preventive  measures. 

WORLD  PEACE  TO  BRING  UNEMPLOYMENT 

Mr,  OsMERS.  Let  us  pressuppose  that  we  do  everything  that  you  feel 
ought  to  be  done,  that  we  plan  carefully  for  the  location  of  each  in- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3695 

dustry;  have  you  taken  into  consideration  the  fact  that  with  the 
arrival  of  peace  there  will  be  approximately  25,000,000  workers 
throughout  the  world  outside  of  the  United  States  who  will  also  lose 
their  jobs  as  the  result  of  peace,  and  that  these  workers,  who  will  do 
everything  they  can  to  get  into  the  American  market  and  attempt  to 
do  business,  will  also  be  competing  with  us  ?  Do  you  feel  that  that 
will  have  an  unfavorable  effect  ? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  think  on  that  particular  phase  of  the  situation 
that  is  rather  a  pessimistic  view.  I  think  that  the  destruction  of  plant 
property  and  life  in  Europe  has  been  so  enormous  that  the  job  of  re- 
building and  reconstruction  of  what  has  been  destroyed  will  be  so  great 
a  majority  of  the  25,000,000  workers  will  be  put  to  work  in  getting 
additional  production. 

Mr.  OsMERs.  I  cannot  agree  with  you,  because  I  think,  taking  your 
statement  that  a  tremendous  amount  of  plant  property  has  been  de- 
stroyed, the  destruction  of  life  has  not  been  as  great  as  in  the  previous 
war;  but  even  taking  the  amount  of  plant  destruction  so  far,  you 
would  still  not  have  destroyed  more  of  the  plant  than  that  being  occu- 
pied by  war  activities.  In  other  words,  plants  such  as  that  will  not 
be  used  after  the  war.  It  may  be,  in  Germany,  with  half  of  its 
industrial  plant  being  used  for  war  production,  that  the  other  half 
of  the  plant  is  not  likely  to  be  destroyed.     But  I  doubt  that. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  do  not  know  how  much  has  been  left  for  the  future, 
especially  some  of  the  larger  plants.  Some  of  those  now  producing 
shells,  T.  N.  T.,  and  so  forth,  will  have  to  be  changed  back  to  normal 
peacetime  production.  Industrial  production  has  been  geared  up  to 
tlie  production  of  war  materials  over  a  period  of  years,  and  that  plant 
will  have  to  be  rebuilt  for  peacetime  purposes.  I  am  somewhat  adher- 
ing to  the  optimistic  viewpoint. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Do  you  feel  that  the  United  States  Employment  Serv- 
ice is,  in  general,  doing  a  good  job? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  think  it  is  doing  an  excellent  job,  and  whatever 
the  shortcomings  are,  they  are  the  shortcomings  of  a  lack  of  sufficient 
personnel  and  equipment.  And  when  I  say  equipment  I  mean  in  a 
general  way,  without  casting  any  reflections  on  the  present  staff. 

I  do  think  they  could  probably  do  a  better  job  if  they  relied  more 
on  people  with  a  background  of  actual  work  in  the  labor  field.  I 
think  we  have  a  lot  of  people  who  have  been  working  at  their  trade 
in  particular  occupations,  and  who  know  them,  practically,  from 
experience  over  a  period  of  years.  I  think  those  who  have  repre- 
sented labor  on  these  problems  are  better  equipped,  in  many  in- 
stances, to  really  do  a  thorough  job  of  placement,  bringing  the  job 
to  the  worker  and  the  worker  to  the  job,  than  a  person  who  has  had 
purely  an  academic  training. 

IMPR0\^  PLACEMENT  PROGRAM 

There  is  room  for  both,  but  I  think  they  should  rely  more  on  the 
practical  people  to  enable  them  to  work  out  a  faster,  better,  and 
smoother  program  of  placement. 

Mr.  OsMERs.  I  Avant  to  agree  with  that  statement.  It  has  been 
my  opinion  that  not  only  representatives  of  labor  but  also  repre- 


3596  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

sentatives  of  employers  should  be  in  closer  harmony  with  the  em- 
ployment service,  or  the  employment  service  in  closer  harmony  with 
them. 

You  do  feel,  however,  that  the  United  States  Employment  Service 
is  the  organization  that  should,  in  a  sense,  direct  this  migration  as 
much  as  possible,  not  to  be  compulsory  in  any  sense,  and  if  there 
are  jobs,  they  should  be  the  ones  to  send  people  to  these  places. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Without  question  they  are  the  ones  to  do  that. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Do  you  favor  a  Nation-wide  congress  or  conference 
on  the  question  of  unemployment?  The  representative  of  the  C.  I.  O. 
said  their  organization  was  favorable  to  such  a  conference. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  We  have  urged  a  conference  on  unemployment  over 
a  period  of  time.     President  Green  has  made  a  report  on  that. 

The  unemployment  problem  now  is  changing  so  rapidly  that  I 
think  that  the  unemployment  conference  method  at  this  time  is  very 
unwieldly  and  very  slow.  We  tried  that  in  1930,  1931,  and  1932, 
and  that  perhaps  is  the  best  method  of  dealing  with  the  problem  at 
the  moment.  I  think  there  should  be  a  meeting  of  minds  on  the 
part  of  labor  and  the  Government,  and  I  think  it  should  be  done 
quickly,  in  view  of  the  urgency  of  the  situation. 

AVOULD  EXTEND  WAGE-AND-HOUR  LAW 

Mr.  OsMERS.  What  is  your  attitude  on  the  application  of  the  wage- 
and-hour  law  to  agricultural  workers;  by  that  I  mean  those  engaged 
in  industrial  or  corporate  farming^ 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  should  like  to  have  the  act  extended  to  cover 
those. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  With  possibly  some  alteration  in  wages  and  hours  to 
cover  agricultural  occupations? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  Without  subscribing  to  Colonel  Fleming's  recom- 
mendations, I  should  think  that  labor  standards  should  be  considered 
first. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  You  feel  that  it  should  be  handled  as  a  separate 
entity,  so  far  as  the  agricultural  worker  is  concerned,  because  of 
the  seasonal  character  of  his  work? 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  think  the  Wage  and  Hour  Division  should  un- 
dertake a  study  of  that  subject  and  be  called  upon  for  specific  recom- 
mendations to  Congress  as  to  the  nature  of  the  problem,  so  proper 
recommendations  could  be  framed. 

Mr.  OsMEKS.  The  Secretary  of  Labor  has  suggested  to  the  com- 
mittee that  the  Federal  Government  establish  a  board,  bureau,  or 
commission  of  a  permanent  nature  to  plot  the  course  of  migration, 
and  to  suggest  to  Congress  from  time  to  time  certain  legislation  that 
might  be  helpful ;  in  other  w' ords,  to  provide  for  a  body  such  as  this 
committee  on  a  permanent  basis. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  subscribe  to  the  suggestion  by  Congressman 
Tolan  that  that  is  the  proper  way  to  do  it,  and  I  think  that  such 
a  body  would  have  the  approval  of  organized  labor. 

The  Chairman.  We  thank  you  very  much  for  your  statement,  Mr. 
Shishkin.     I  want  to  say  that  your  statement  and  your  answers  to 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3697 

questions  were  fair  and  clear,  and  you  have  made  a  very  valuable 
contribution  to  the  work  of  this  committee. 

Mr.  Shishkin.  I  thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

(The  following  are  excerpts  from  a  prepared  statement  submitted 
by  Mr.  Shishkin,  which  were  not  read  with  his  testimony:) 

*  *  *  Today  hmidreds  of  thousands  of  our  families  wander  like  tumble- 
weeds  across  the  expanse  of  our  country,  families  who  can  and  should  be  given 
the  opportunity  to  grow  roots  in  communities  which  they  could  call  their  own, 
to  establish  homes,  and  thus  to  be  assured  healthy  and  normal  growth  as 
human  beings,  as  families,  as  citizens,  and  as  productive  workers     *     *     *. 

To  the  plain  public  duty  of  remedying  these  conditions  and  of  removiiig  their 
causes  is  now  added  another  imperative  and  pressing  requirement.  Defense 
organization  and  defense  production  will  strain  to  the  limit  the  resources  of 
the  American  people.  The  defense  needs  place  upon  our  Congress  and  our 
Oovernmeut  an  exacting  duty  to  make,  in  a  democratic  way,  an  urgent  and 
adequte  provision  of  remedies  and  facilities  to  end  the  idle  ebb  and  flow  of 
unemployed  job  seekers,  and  to  direct  it  into  channels  of  normal  productive 
activity.     *     *     * 

Much  of  the  interstate  labor  migration  today  may  be  termed  "blind  migra- 
tion." Workers  and  their  families  travel  hundreds  and  thousands  of  miles, 
placing  their  faith  of  finding  employment  on  vague  rumors  or  deliberately 
false  reports  greatly  exaggerating  the  employment  needs  which  often  do  not 
exist  at  all.  It  is  of  primary  importance,  therefore,  to  assure  visibility  of 
employment  opportunities.  In  industry,  trade,  and  agriculture  advance-job 
inventories  should  be  made  to  provide  advance  information  on  prospective 
employment  opportunities.  Such  a  service  developed  nationally  by  public- 
employment  offices  in  defense  industries  and  in  all  seasonal  and  fluctuating 
employments  would  greatly  reduce  the  flow  of  "blind  migration"  which  is  the 
most  costly  and  wasteful  to  our  community  and  to  our  economy.  This  program 
should  be  undertaken  as  promptly  as  possible,  and  with  full  working  coopera- 
tion and  consultation  of  organized  labor  and  of  industry.     *     *     * 

Most  migrants  are  in  flight  from  economic  insecurity.  Extension  of  coverage 
of  the  social-security  legislation  to  wage  earners  now  excluded  has  been  urged 
upon  Congress  by  the  American  Federation  of  Labor  as  a  method  of  bringing 
an  important  measure  of  economic  stability  and  security  from  unemployment. 
This  should  be  done  under  the  plan  eniliodied  in  the  Wagner-McCormack 
amendments  supported  by  the  American  Federation  of  Labor.  Extension  of 
workmen's  compensation  coverage  to  temporary  and  casual  workers  and  to 
employments  now  excluded  is  also  very  necessary.     *     *     * 

Measures  such  as  these  and  modification  of  existing  settlement  laws  would 
give  us  a  framework  for  dealing  with  the  problem  in  a  planned,  orderly,  and 
-effective  fashion.  We  shall  still  have  left  before  us,  however,  the  broader 
problem  of  long-term  unemployment,  the  prf»blem  which  is  temporarily  miti- 
gated by  defense  activity,  but  which  will  undoubtedly  assume  critical  propor- 
tions when  the  national  emergency  is  over.  As  an  approach  to  the  i>ermanent 
solution  of  unemployment  and  in  addition  to  the  basic  remedies  such  as  the 
shortening  of  the  hours  of  work  and  strengthening  of  the  purchasing  power 
through  increased  wages,  the  American  Federation  of  Labor  offers  another 
proposal  which  is  designed  to  stabilize  the  flow  of  productive  investment. 

To  achieve  this  we  recommend  the  adoption  of  a  simple  plan  which  may  be 
termed  a  ''reemployment  finance  program."  We  are  now  financing  industrial 
expansion  and  especially  the  expansion  of  defense  industries  through  direct 
loans  of  Federal  money  to  industry.  This  lending  program,  although  it  may 
he  directly  financed  by  borrowing,  will  ultimately  place  a  great  burden  of  taxa- 
tion upon  the  wealth  of  our  Nation.  Government  lending  provides  substitute 
channels  for  the  flow  of  investment  funds  which  are  not  forthcoming  through 
the  normal  channels  of  private  investment.  In  view  of  the  large  accumulation 
of  private  investment  funds  and  the  availability  of  an  enormous  reserve  of 
accumulated  savings  of  individuals  and  of  industry,  we  propose  a  plan  to  make 
possible  direct  investment  of  private  funds  into  expansion  of  sound  productive 
enterprises. 

By  the  simple  method  of  Federal  insurance  of  loans  made  by  private  banks 
and  other  lending  institutions  under  the  method  used  by  the  Federal  Housing 


3698 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Administration,  private  investors  can  be  induced  to  assume  long-term  risks 
which  they  are  now  reluctant  to  underwrite.  Partial  insurance  of  these  private 
loans  could  be  administered  by  the  Reemployment  Finance  Corporation  estab- 
lished within  the  existing  framework  of  the  Reconstruction  Finance  Corpora- 
tion and  utilizing  the  available  staft  of  the  Federal  Loan  Agency. 

The  only  condition  of  Federal  insurance  on  industrial  loans  of  this  kind  would 
be  the  enforcement  of  minimum  standards  of  fair  competition  and  of  such  min- 
imum labor  standards  as  have  already  been  established  in  the  industry  in 
question.  It  is  our  belief  that  such  a  program  which  calls  for  no  expenditure 
of  public  funds  and  for  a  simple  legislative  authorization  could  do  much  toward 
relieving  the  distressed  areas  in  our  economy  by  bringing  new  industry  to 
communities  which  need  it  and  at  the  same  time  prevent  unbalanced  growth 
brought  on  by  unfair  competition.  ,    ^^  . 

The  sixtieth  annual  convention  of  the  American  Federation  of  Labor  held  ui 
New  Orleans  last  month  has  given  extended  consideration  to  the  problem  of 
migratory  labor  and  has  authorized  the  executive  council  of  the  American 
Federation  of  Labor  to  make  a  thorough  study  of  the  problems  presented 
by  the  migratory  and  transient  workers.  The  convention  also  voted  unan- 
imously that  such  measures  be  prepared  as  will  safeguard  and  protect  the 
social  and  civic  rights  and  welfare  of  the  migratory  workers  with  the  view  that 
a  permanent  and  workable  solution  to  this  broad  problem,  reestablishing  the 
migratory  workers  in  an  economically  sound  community  life,  be  found. 

The  problem  of  the  migratory  worker  has  become  a  challenge  to  the  entire 
community  and  is  of  vital  concern  to  organized  labor.  The  American  Federa- 
tion of  Labor  actively  supported  the  authorization  by  Congress  of  House  Reso- 
lution No.  63  which  made  the  work  of  the  Tolan  Committee  possible.  Your 
committee  has  already  established  a  notable  record.  Labor  is  confident  that 
a  constructive  program  will  result  when  it.s  work  is  concluded. 
(Thereupon,  tlie  committee  took  a  recess  until  2  p.  m.) 

AFTER  RECESS 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  please  come  to  order.  The  first 
witness  will  be  Dr.  Lubin. 

Congressman  Osmers,  of  New  Jersey,  will  niterrogate  you,  Dr. 
Lubin. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DR.  ISADOR  LUBIN,  COMMISSIONER,  BUREAU  OF 
LABOR  STATISTICS,  DEPARTMENT  OF  LABOR,  WASHINGTON, 
D.  C. 

Mr,  Osmers.  Dr.  Lubin,  I  believe  you  are  prepared  to  make  a  state- 
ment to  the  committee  upon  which  we  may  predicate  our  questions; 
is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Lubin.  I  have  no  particular  statement  to  make,  Mr.  Osmers. 
When  a  representative  of  the  committee  conferred  with  me  he  asked 
me  to  come  and  say  Avhat  I  could  about  the  effect  of  the  defense  pro- 
gram upon  employment.  I  have  brought  together  various  materials 
which  might  throw  light  upon  what  may  happen  to  employment  as 
the  result  of  the  defense  program. 

Mr.  Osmers.  I  will  say  this,  Dr.  Lubin,  that  in  our  Washington 
hearings,  when  we  started  off,  it  was  pretty  much  an  agricidtural 
problem,  but  as  the  defense  program  has  matured  and  as  the  work 
of  the  committee  has  matured,  we  find  that  more  and  more  emphasis 
in  our  discussions  is  being  placed  upon  the  future  migration  that  will 
come  as  a  result  of  peace. 

If  you  could  give  us  some  testimony  along  those  lines  I  am  sure  it 
would  be  helpful  to  the  committee,  but  don't  feel  we  are  narrowing 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


3699 


you  to  that  subject.  Anything  at  all  that  you  may  have  to  say  on 
the  subject  of  the  international  migration  of  destitnte  citizens  is  of 
interest  to  the  committee. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  I  have  nothing  on  the  interstate  migration  of  our  citi- 
zens. I  understood  I  was  to  talk  on  the  etl'ect  of  the  defense  program 
upon  employment  and  how  far  we  could  count  on  the  defense  program 
in  absorbing  the  unemployed. 

EMPLOYED    NUMBERED    37,000,000 

Mr.  OsMEBS.  Will  you  speak  on  that  subject? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes.  During  the  month  of  October,  the  last  month  for 
which  official  statistics  are  available,  it  is  estimated  that  approximately 
37,000,000  people  were  employed  in  the  United  States. 

The  last  time  that  employment  levels  approached  that  figure  was 
in  the  fall  of  1937,  when  about  thirty-six  and  three-quarter  million 
people  were  employed. 

Today  we  are  about  800,000  below  the  peak  level  of  employment  in 
the  fall  of  1929.  In  other  words,  despite  the  fact  that  the  defense 
program  has  been  under  way  since  May— it  started,  of  course,  from  a 
relatively  low  level,  and  despite  the  fact  that  since  the  beginning  of 
this  year  something  approximating  two  and  three-quarter  million 
people  have  found  jobs,  we  are  still  at  a  point  where  about  three- 
quarters  of  a  million  fewer  people  are  being  employed,  outside  of 
agricultural  activities,  than  in  the  peak  month  of  1929.  That  was 
September  1929,  when  the  figure  was,  as  I  say,  approximately  thirty- 
seven  and  three-quarter  millions. 

In  the  manufacturing  industries  we  are  still  below^  the  level  of  the 
peak  months  of  1929,  and  w^e  are  even  below  the  level  of  September 
1937. 

I  brought  with  me  a  chart  which  gives  a  picture  of  the  employ- 
ment situation  in  the  manufacturing  industry. 

The  Chairman.  The  reporter  will  mark  the  chart  as  an  exhibit 
to  Dr.  Lubin's  testimony. 

(The  chart  referred  to  was  marked  "Lubin  Exhibit  B-1,"  and  ap- 
pears below.) 


1 


MANUFACTURING    EMPLOYMENT 

DURABLE    AND    NONDURABLE    GOODS  GROUP 

1923-25=100 


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1923     1924     1925     1926     1927     1928     1929    1930     1931     1932     1933     1934     1935     1936    1937     1938     1939    1940 


260370— 41— pt. 


3700  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  LuBiN.  You  will  note  from  this  chart  (Manufacturing  Em- 
ployment) that  the  index  of  employment  at  the  present  time  in 
the  durable-goods  industries — which  are  the  industries  that  are  most 
directly  affected  by  the  defense  program — is  approximately  110,  as 
compared  with  the  base  years  1923, 1924,  and  1925. 

You  will  note  that  this  line  is  just  about  back  to  where  it  was  3 
years  ago,  in  1937,  when  we  reached  the  peak  level  since  1929. 

You  will  note  also  that  it  is  just  about  on  a  par  with  the  peak 
period  of  1929.  This  black  line  on  top,  which  is  the  nondurable- 
goods  industries,  which  are  the  industries  that  make  the  things  we 
consume  each  day — food,  clothing,  and  the  nondurable  goods  of  vari- 
ous types — is  still  several  points  below  where  it  was  3  years  ago  and 
slightly  below  where  it  was  in  1929, 

In  other  words,  the  real  gains  in  employment  in  the  last  several 
years  have  been  in  the  durable-goods  industries,  and  the  real  gains 
that  have  occurred  in  the  past  7  months  have  been  in  those  same 
durable-goods  industries,  as  one  would  expect,  due  to  the  fact  that 
the  Army  and  Navy  are  spending  most  of  their  money  on  heavy 
goods — ships,  airplanes,  ordnance — of  one  sort  or  another. 

These  figures  on  employment  do  not  tell  the  entire  story,  how- 
ever, because  all  they  depict  is  what  is  happening  to  the  number  of 
people  who  are  on  pay  rolls. 

During  the  last  6  or  7  years  a  lot  of  people  were  employed  but 
had  relatively  little  work.  In  other  w^ords,  they  were  on  a  pay  roll 
but  they  had  employment  for  only  2,  3,  or  4  days  per  week. 

lU'YING  POWER  or  LABORING  POPULATION 

The  defense  program  has  not  only  brought  about  an  increase  in 
the  number  of  people  employed  but  has  brought  about  a  very  marked 
effect  upon  the  pay  rolls  of  industry.  In  other  words,  not  only  have 
new  people  been  taken  on  but  the  people  who  had  been  on  previous 
to  the  program  have  been  securing  more  steady  work  and  much  over- 
time work.  The  result  of  that  situation  is  shown  on  this  factory 
pay-roll  chart. 

The  Chairman.  Will  you  mark  that,  Mr.  Reporter? 

(The  chart  referred  to  was  marked  "Lubin  Exhibit  B-2",  and  ap- 
pears as  chart  2.) 

Mr.  Lubin.  You  will  notice  that  pay  rolls  in  the  durable-goods 
industries  now  stand  at  121.7,  or  approximately  122,  the  highest  level 
on  record. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Higher  than  during  the  World  War? 

Mr.  Lubin.  No;  I  am  sorry.  I  should  have  said  "since  the  early 
1920\s."  The  actual  pay-roll  figures  for  the  World  War  period  were 
not  very  much  in  excess  of  this  point. 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  those  were  not  normal  times,  of  course. 

Mr.  Lubin.  Well,  of  course,  some  people  will  question  whether  the 
present  times  are  normal.  The  fact  remains  that  there  Avas  a  great 
increase,  and  you  will  notice  in  this  chart  that  pay-roll  figures  jump 
from  97  in  May  to  almost  122  in  October,  an  increase  of  over  25 
percent  in  that  short  period  of  time. 

You  will  notice  on  the  other  hand  that  in  the  non-durable-goods 
industries  the  pay-roll  figure  is  just  about  where  it  was  a  year  ago 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


3701 


2 

MANUFACTURING    PAY    ROLLS 

DURABLE   a   NONDURABLE    GOODS    GROUP 

1923-25=100 

120 
100 
80 
60 
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1923     1924      1925      1926      1927      1928      1929     1930      1931      1932      1933     1934      1935      1936      1937     1938      1939      1940 

and  below  where  it  wus  in  1937.  and  considerably  below  where  it 
was  in  1929. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Dr.  Lnbin,  is  tliat  chart  based  on  dollars  of  pay  rolls? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Dollars  paid  out  per  week. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Dollars  paid  out  per  week  by  manufacturers? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes. 

Mr.  OsMEES,  I  didn't  know  whether  it  was  hours  of  labor,  or  wages 
per  hour,  or  what  the  unit  was. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  The  total  dollars  paid  out  in  pay  rolls. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  your  index  when  figuring  buying  power? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes ;  it  is  the  buying  power  of  the  laboring  population 
■of  the  country. 

May  we  have  the  next  chart  marked  ? 

The  Chairman.  The  reporter  will  please  mark  it. 

(The  chart  referred  to  was  marked  "Lubin  Exhibit  C,"  and  appears 
as  chart  3.) 


3 

EMPLOYMENT  AND  PAY  ROLLS 

ALL  MANUFACTURING  INDUSTRIES 

1923-25=100 

120 
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1919   1920  1921   1922    1923  1924    1925   1926    1927    1928   1929    1930   1931    1932    1933    1934   1935    1936    1937    1938   1939   1940    1941    1942 

3702  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

EMPLOYMENT  CLOSE  TO  1  9  2  9 

Mr.  LuBiN.  If  you  take  all  of  the  manufacturing  industries  com- 
bined, namely,  durable  and  nondurable,  which  this  chart  shows^ 
being  a  combination  of  the  two  preceding  charts,  you  will  find  that 
employment  as  a  whole  in  the  manufacturing  industries  is  just  about 
back  where  it  was  3  years  ago.  It  is  slightly  below  where  it  was 
in  1929.  ■ 

Here  is  the  figure,  Mr.  Parsons,  for  the  war  period.  There  is  your 
1910  figure.     It  was  1141/2  as  compared  to  110  now. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Well,  we  had  all  the  people  pretty  well  employed 
in  those  days 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes.  But,  of  course,  in  the  past  20  years  you  have 
increased  the  number  of  people  in  your  population  who  are  of  work- 
ing age  by  something  like  10,000,000. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  the  point. 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  haven't  we  had  a  comparable  and  proportionate 
increase  in  the  20  years  before  that,  whereas  the  population  in  the 
last  decade  has  not  increased  anything  like  the  same  rate  or  rapidity 
that  it  did  in  the  years  previous  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  The  significant  fact  is  that  during  the  so-called  period 
of  prosperity  in  the  late  1920's,  your  employment  and  pay-roll  levels 
dichi't  rise  very  much.  There  were  temporary  ups  and  downs  but 
the  figures  stuck  pretty  closely  to  that  line,  which  represents  1923, 
1924,  and  1925,  and  even  in  1929  you  did  not  get  back  to  the  levels 
of  1919  either  in  employment  or  in  pay  rolls. 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  you  had  steady  employment  in  both  the  durable 
and  nondurable  goods.    They  went  fairly  well  along  together? 

employment  problem  built  up 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes ;  of  course.  But  the  significant  thing  is  that  dur- 
ing that  period  you  were  gradually  building  up  an  army  of  unem- 
ployed. I  should  not  use  the  word  "army."  It  is  the  wrong  word. 
You  were  gradually  building  up  an  employment  problem  that  we 
were  not  conscious  of  at  the  time. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  just  what  I  want  you  to  comment  on.  A 
great  many  of  those  people  were  coming  from  the  rural  areas  and 
the  farms  because  farming  was  less  and  less  profitable. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Exactly  so. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Throughout  the  decade  of  the  1920's  and  in  com- 
parison with  the  comparative  buying  power  of  industry. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  In  other  words,  you  were  increasing  the  working  popu- 
lation something  in  excess  of  500,000  a  year  and  yet  between  1920  and 
1929  the  actual  increase  in  the  number  of  people  employed  was  less 
than  15  percent.  In  other  words,  each  year  you  were  adding  to  your 
laboring  population  but  you  were  not  absorbing  them  as  fast  as  you 
were  adding  to  your  labor  supply. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Has  labor-displacing  machinery,  inventions,  and 
technological  machines  aided  and  assisted  in  this  employment? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  There  is  no  doubt  it  has  aided  and  assisted  very 
materially. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3703 

Mr.  Parsons.  And  the  new  frontiers  of  manufacturing  of  new  ma- 
terials, like  automobiles  and  like  the  airplane  industry  and  so  on,  have 
not  absorbed  the  labor  that  inventions  and  technological  trends  have 
-displaced. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  That  is  true.  Of  course,  on  the  other  hand,  there  is 
this  other  thing  that  should  be  borne  in  mind,  that  during  this  period 
the  habits  of  the  country  have  changed.  In  other  words,  you  made  it 
more  difficult,  and  in  fact  you  are  prohibiting  the  employment  of 
l^eople  below  16  years  of  age.  Formerly,  many  worked  below  the 
age  of  14.  Through  our  social-security  laws  we  have  made  it  possible 
for  people  who  otherwise  would  have  had  to  work  to  retire  at  the 
age  of  65.  Our  whole  attitude  toward  various  groups  of  our  popula- 
tion has  changed. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Yet  with  all  that  change  we  still  have  a  very  large 
number  of  unemployed. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Very  definitely. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  you  think  we  will  ever  reach  the  point  where  we 
■can  employ  all  the  employables  in  private  industry  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  If  I  didn't  I  would  give  up  right  now.  I  think  that 
we  can.  I  don't  know  how  we  are  going  to  do  it,  but  I  would  say  that 
to  admit  that  we  cannot  is  admitting  bankruptcy  for  our  system. 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  are  quite  an  optimist  and  I  am  very  glad  to  have 
Sit  least  one  individual  that  believes  it  can  be  done. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Well,  I  am  convinced  it  can  be  done. 

Mr.  Parsons.  The  principal  point  right  now  is  to  find  the  means 
tind  the  methods  with  which  to  do  it. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Exactly. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  isn't  the  problem  of  this  committee,  however. 
It  is  only  incidental ;  but  we  are  vitally  interested  in  the  problem. 

SENATE  STUDIED  UNEMPLOYMENT 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Back  12  years  ago,  in  1928,  the  Senate  passed  a  resolu- 
tion ordering  an  investigation  of  the  problem  of  unemployment.  The 
job  was  turned  over  to  the  Senate  Committee  on  Education  and  Labor, 
and  I  was  appointed  economic  counsel  to  that  committee. 

The  report  submitted  by  that  committee  pointed  to  the  very  same 
problem  that  we  are  discussing  today,  namely,  how  to  absorb  the  people 
who  were  then  unemployed  but  whom  most  of  us  did  not  consider  to 
be  a  problem.  We  were  not  conscious  of  the  fact  in  that  so-called 
heyday  of  prosperity  that  people  were  unemployed  and  that  the  number 
of  unemployed  was  increasing. 

Today  the  problem  is  still  with  iis.  It  is  still  with  us  but  in  a  much 
more  acute  form,  first,  because  of  the  fact  that  we  had  the  period  from 
1929  to  1933  when  we  had  a  progressive  decline  in  employment.  Since 
1933  we  have  twice  gotten  back  to  the  point  from  which  we  started 
in  the  1920's. 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  mean  so  far  as  pay  rolls  are  concerned  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Pretty  close.  The  problem  from  now  on  is  not  to  main- 
tain that  level  but  to  go  beyond  it  to  new  levels,  and  having  gone 
beyond  it  to  maintain  it.     The  solution,  as  I  said  before,  I  do  not  know, 


3704  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

but  I  think  there  is  a  whole  series  of  factors  involved.     I  think  the- 
problem  of  price  structure  is  a  very  significant  factor  in  it. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Will  you  comment  upon  the  price  structure  with 
reference  to  your  idea  relating  to  this  problem? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Take  the  case  of  technological  displacement.  A  new 
macliine  comes  in.  We  just  take  it  for  granted  if  the  machine  can  do' 
the  work  of  former  workers  that  those  workers  can  be  dismissed 
automatically. 

Well,  now,  if  the  savings  that  came  in  production  costs  as  a  result  of 
putting  in  a  new  macliine  were  distributed  more  equitably,  I  don't 
believe  we  would  have  the  severe  problem  that  we  have  been  having. 
In  other  words,  if  the  savings  were  given  to  us  automatically  in  lower 
prices  so  you  and  I  would  have  to  pay  less  for  those  goods,  we  would 
have  more  money  to  spend  for  other  goods.  If  that  were  the  situation, 
your  total  problem  of  unemployment  would  be  a  great  deal  less  serious 
than  it  is  at  the  present  time.  On  the  other  hand,  if  part  of  the 
savings  were  given  to  the  displaced  worker,  he  at  least  would  be  much 
better  off. 

Mr.  Parsons.  As  a  direct  gift? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Through  some  form  of  insurance.  Now,  let  us  have  a 
concrete  illustration.  Here  is  a  man  working  in  a  factory  in  the 
State  of  New  York.  He  has  a  certain  skill.  He  loses  three  fingers 
as  a  result  of  an  accident.  In  losing  those  three  fingers  he  no  longer 
is  able  to  do  his  old  job. 

In  New  York  State  that  man  can  get  two-thirds  of  his  salary,  under 
the  workmen's  compensation  law  of  that  State,  for  a  long  period  of 
time.  I  think  it  is  6  years.  He  has  lost  his  skill  as  a  result  of  an 
accident. 

Now,  somebody  puts  in  a  machine  and  does  the  same  thing.  It 
doesn't  take  his  fingers  away  from  him  but  it  takes  his  skill  away 
from  him.  He  is  no  longer  necessary  to  his  industry.  We  forget  him. 
He  is  thrown  into  the  ash  can  and  he  has  to  find  his  own  way  around. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Probably  would  start  on  the  road  as  one  of  our 
migrants. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  That  is  one  of  the  possibilities.  In  other  words,  we 
haven't  kept  our  books  straight.  That  job  of  his  from  which  he  is 
displaced  creates  a  social  liability.  Somebody  is  going  to  have  to  take 
care  of  that  dispossessed  person  some  way  or  another.  You  and  I 
don't  pay  for  it  directly.  The  employer  doesn't  pay  for  it.  Eventu- 
ally, however,  you  and  I  may  pay  for  it  through  our  payment  of  taxes.. 
But  if  the  worker  is  going  to  lose  his  job  so  that  you  and  I  can  get 
things  cheaper,  I  think  it  is  unfair  that  he  bear  the  burden  all  himself. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Don't  you  think.  Dr.  Lubin,  that  as  a  general  rule  the 
benefits  of  labor-saving  machinery  have  been  passed  along  to  the 
consumer  ? 

Mr.  Lubin.  I  would  say  that  if  it  is  it  takes  so  long  that  the  problem 
of  technological  displacement  becomes  very  much  more  serious  than  it 
need  be. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  will  admit,  of  course,  that  the  manufacturer  that 
goes  to  great  expense  to  install  labor-saving  machinery  cannot  innne- 
diately  reduce  prices  to  what  they  will  be  when  that  machinery  has 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3705 

been  amortized.     I  appreciate  that,  but  won't  competition  force  the 
saving  to  be  passed  on  to  the  consnmer? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  I  would  not  say  generally,  but  I  will  say  that  com- 
petition sometimes  does  that  but  nowhere  as  frequently-  or  as  regularly 
as  we  would  like  to  think  it  does. 

INCREASED  WORKING  POPULATION 

Mr.  Curtis.  May  I  ask  a  question  '^ 

The  Chairman.  Certainly. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  That  is  a  personal  opinion,  of  course. 

Mr.  Curtis.  As  I  understood  you  to  say,  we  have  approxnnately 
the  same  number  of  employed  people  now  as  we  had  in  1929. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Actually  employed  ;  yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  it' is  not  the  same  relative  number  as  compared 
to  the  population  in  1929? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Our  population  has  increased  considerably,  has  it  not? 

Mr.  LuBix.  The  population  of  working  age  has  increased  approxi- 
mately 5,000,000. 

Mr.'  Curtis.  And  how  about  the  total  population  of  the  country  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  It  has  increased  9,000,000,  approximately,  I  think. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  do  you  know  of  anyone  that  has  tried  to  find 
the  mathematical  answer  to  the  question  of  how  many  jobs  have 
been  displaced  by  the  coming  of  machines  in  the  last  20  years,  the 
development  of  machines  and  so  forth,  as  compared  with  the  new 
jobs  that  machines  have  developed? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  No;  there  is  no  mathematical  answer.  The  reason 
is  that  it  is  next  to  impossible  to  determine  whether  the  machine 
or  some  other  factor  has  displaced  a  particular  person.  For  exam- 
ple, here  you  have  a  factory  where  because  of  the  installation  of  one 
machine  which  may  save  a  lot  of  labor  on  the  part  of  the  people 
who  were  doing  a  j^articular  job — at  the  same  time  you  may  have 
a  reorganization  of  the  plant  in  terms  of  feeding  materials  to  the 
machine,  so  that  you  eliminate  a  lot  of  unnecessary  waste  motion — 
as  a  result  of  that  machine  being  there,  more  people  have  been  displaced 
than  appears  on  the  surface. 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  you  take  the  development  of  radio  with  its  manu- 
facture, its  wholesale  and  retailing  and  broadcasting  business;  the 
licensing  and  servicing  and  the  talent — the  materials  that  go  into 
radio  and  all  its  ramifications  that  you  can  imagine,  and  added  to 
that  air-conditioning  and  refrigeration  and  aviation  and  countless 
other  things.  I  am  not  saying  tluit  machines  have  not  done  away 
with  jobs  but  I  do  think  we  are  just  sticking  our  heads  in  the  sand 
in  trying  to  solve  our  problem  by  saying  that  machinery  is  responsible 
for  unemployment  when  no  one  knows. 

machines  displace  avorkers 

Mr.  LuBiN.  I  think  you  can  get  evidence  of  the  displacement  of 
jobs  by  machines. 


^yQ^  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  can  you  get  the  new  ^obs  created,  and  balance 
them  up  and  see  what  the  answer  is? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Well,  assuming  that  we  could,  the  tact  still  remains 
that  13111  Jones,  who  used  to  work  in  a  plant  that  made  pianos,  who 
lost  his  job  because  people  don't  want  as  many  pianos  today  because 
they  can  have  radios  and  victrolas,  is  out  of  work— he  has  been  dis- 
placed. He  is  a  problem.  Granted  that  as  a  result  of  the  develop- 
ment of  radio  Bill  Smith  got  a  job  which  he  otherwise  would  not 
have  had.  That  does  not  overlook  the  fact  that  we  have  a  human 
casualty;  that  there  are  people  out  of  work  today  because  of  the 
iact  that  the  machine  has  taken  their  job. 

Now,  in  terms  of  the  total  number  of  people  who  are  attected  by 
machine  displacement  nobody  knows  the  answer.  There  is  no  way 
of  telling.  .         J.      -1     1 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  the  goods  consumed  by  an  American  family  has 
greatly  increased  because  they  can  buy  the  products  of  the  machine, 
isn't  that  true  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Very  definitely. 

Mr.  Curtis.  If  we  turned  the  clock  back  enough  years  so  that 
.everything  was  made  by  hand  we  wouldn't  be  having  countless  things 
in  our  homes  and  elsewhere  that  folks  are  buying  today,  would 
we? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Well,  I  would  say  that  it  would  be  much  cheaper  and 
better  for  society  to  let  the  machines  go  on  at  the  rate  they  have  been 
going  and  provide  for  the  people  who  are  displaced  in  some  other 
way  than  it  would  be  to  stop  the  advance  of  the  machine.  One 
reason  why  we  have  such  a  high  standard  of  living  in  this  country 
for  those  who  are  employed  is  the  machine.  But  I  don't  feel  that 
you  and  I  as  consumers,  who  get  the  advantages  of  these  machines, 
should  be  excused  from  bearing  our  share  of  the  burden  of  taking 
•care  of  the  people  who  have  been  displaced. 

In  figuring  the  cost  of  production  you  have  got  not  only  taxes 
and  insurance  and  wages  and  profits  and  interest,  but  there  is  that 
other  factor — the  displaced  worker.  I  think  he  should  be  considered 
part  of  our  cost  of  production  as  well  as  anything  else. 

We  made  a  start  in  that  direction  under  the  Unemployment  Com- 
pensation Act.  One  of  the  costs  of  maintaining  a  factory  is  the 
■cost  of  taking  care  of  your  men  when  you  shut  your  factory  down. 
That  is  added  to  the  cost  of  production  and  you  and  I  rightfully 
should  pay  it. 

PAY  for  YEAR-AROUND  EMPLOYMENT 

If  the  women  of  this  country  want  to  buy  their  bonnets  3  weeks 
iDefore  Easter  they  should  contribute  toward  the  maintenance  of  the 
workers  who  make  those  bonnets  and  need  employment  the  year 
around.  They  should  help  to  take  care  of  those  people  so  when 
they  Avant  bonnets  again  next  fall  those  people  will  be  available. 
:Somebody  should  bear  that  cost  and  I  think  the  consumer  should 
pay  it. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  a  question  about  the  charts 
Tthat  you  have  showed  us,  which  all  show  an  increase  in  employment 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3707 

and  pay  rolls  in  the  very  recent  past  and  apparently  a  continuing 
upward  curve.  Is  there  any  way  of  telling  the  committee  how  much 
of  that  up-swing  is  due  to  defense  industries  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  \es,  sir;  I  have  the  picture  of  what  has  happened 
here.  This  is  the  explosives  industry.  You  will  note  that  the  black 
line,  which  is  employment,  is  now  39  percent  above  where  it  was 
a  year  ago.  Pay  rolls  are  almost  44  percent  above  where  they  were 
a  year  ago. 

The  Chairman.  Will  you  mark  that,  Mr.  Reporter  ? 

(The  chart  referred  to  was  marked  "Lubin  Exhibit  D,"  and  ap- 
pears below. ) 


EMPLOYMENT   AND   PAY  ROLLS 
EXPLOSIVES 


1923-25  =  100 


^ 

\i> 

^ 

f 

^ 

^ 

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L 

^ 

EM 

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1923       1924       1925       r926       1927       1928       1929      1930      1931       1932       1933      1934      f935       1936       1937       1938       1939      1940      1941       1942 


Mr.  Lubin.  The  chart  for  the  chemical  industry 

The  Chairman.  Will  you  mark  that,  Mr.  Reporter  ? 
(The  chart  referred  to  was  marked  "Lubin  Exhibit  E,"  and  ap- 
pears below. ) 


5 

EMPLOYMENT  AND  PAY  ROLLS 

CHEMICALS 

1923-25  =  100 

200 
150 
100 
50 

250 

150 
100 

/-^ 

r 

^ 

2s 

S;^ 

EK 

<PLOYN 

ENT^ 

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--PAY  F 

iOLLS 

U«IIE 

1929            1930            1931            1932            1933            1934           1935            1936           1937            1938            1939           1940            1941            1942 

«^ 

^yQg  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Ill  the  chemical  industry  the  increase  has  not  been 
quite  as  great  but  you  can  see  the  trend.  There  was  a  rather  sharp 
rise  at  the  end  of  1939  and  the  index  is  still  going  up.  Employment 
today  is  about  9  percent  above  where  it  was  a  year  ago  and  pay  rolls 
are  12  percent  higher. 

The  aircraft  industry 

The  Chairman.  Will  you  mark  that,  Mr.  Eei)orter? 

(The  chart  referred  to  was  marked  "Lubin  Exhibit  F,"  and  appears 
below.) 


6 

EMPLOYMENT    AND   PAY  ROLLS 

AIRCRAFT 

1923-25  =  100 

rS'n'n 

/ 

aooo 

/ 

3000 

/ 

EMPLO 

YMENT. 

/ 

1000 



^_=— 

*S^*« 

^aJJ"^^^^       ^PAY  ROLLS 

1931                  1932                 1933                 1934                 1935                 1936                 1937                 1938                 1939                 1940                1941                 1942 

.«, 

Mr.  Lubin.  Let  us  go  back  to  January  1939.  The  index  was  900. 
At  the  present  time  it  is  4,200.  In  other  words,  employment  in  indus- 
try has  increased  about  five  times  and  pay  rolls  approximately  by  the 
same  amount. 

The  Chairman.  Will  you  mark  that.  Mr.  Reporter? 

(The  chart  referred  to  was  marked  "Lubin  Exhibit  G,"  and  appears 
below.) 


EMPLOYMENT   AND   PAY  ROLLS 


SHIPBUILDING 

1923-25  =  100 


1                        ,        j 

1/rr, 

^     A.  i^' '""       n^vA 

'^'V/*'^^     ^WjT                    ni     EMPLOYMENT-^yd'                     ^j 

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1924      1925      1926      1927      1929      1929      1930      1931       1932      1933       1934      1935      1936      1937      1938      1939      1940 


INTERSTATE  :\IIORATION 


3709 


Mr.  LuBiN.  In  the  sliipbiiildiiio-  industry  you  have  a  simihir  picture. 
Early  in  1939  the  index  was  100.  'The  index  today  is  195.  The  pay-roll 
index  was  100,  and  the  pay-roll  index  today  is  241.  You  have  doubled 
the  pay  roll  two  and  a  half  times. 

In  the  machine-tool  industry  yon  have  a  similar  picture.  We 
are  far  above  anything  we  ever  had.  Pay  rolls  today  are  three  and 
a  half  times  what  they  were  in  the  middle  of  1938.  Employment  is 
twice  what  it  was  2  years  ago. 

Those  are  the  outstanding  industries  that  have  been  affected  by 
defense  orders. 

(The  chart  referred  to  was  marked  "Lubin  Exhibit  H,"  and  appears 
below.) 


8 


EMPLOYMENT    AND   PAY  ROLLS 

MACHINE  TOOLS 


1923-25  =  100 

\ 

..L|J_4_ 

P 

1 

1 

1 

/ 

A* 

i     1              1     1 

1 

AY   F 

0 

OLL 

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/ 

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vVr^r 

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'     /=^^S3^       I^;  employmenV      '    ^ 

A  Y" 

^'V_i  LlJ'K    ^ 

\      '        ^^^  1 

i 

1926      1927      1928      1929 


1931       1932       1933      1934      1935      1936      1937      1938 


1940       1941       1942 


Mr.  OsMERS.  That  isn't  quite  what  I  had  in  mind,  Doctor,  but  I  am 
glad  you  gave  us  those  figures  because  they  are  very  essential.  But  I 
would  like  to  know  what  projiortion  of  these  general  increases  is 
accounted  for  by  the  vei-y  industries  that  yon  have  separately  given  us 
here. 

Mr.  Lubin.  I  think  I  have  the  actual  figures  with  me. 

NORMAL  INDUSTRIES  IMPROVING 


Mr.  OsMERS.  In  other  words  what  I  am  trying  to  determine  is 
Avhether  normal  industries  are  getting  any  better  or  whether  we  are 
just  adding  to  certain  defense  categories. 

Mr.  Lubin.  Oh,  they  are  all  getting  better. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Aside  from  those  purely  associated  with  defense? 

Mr.  Lubin.  Yes,  sir;  of  course,  they  will  follow  as  money  goes  out 
in  pay  rolls ;  even  in  nondurable  goods  we  will  see  a  sharp  increase  in 
buying.    May  I  give  you  a  few  examples  of  what  the  increases  were? 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  wish  you  would. 

Mr.  Lubin.  Let  us  take  today  over  a  year  ago.  Blast  furnace  and 
steel  mills.    The  index  has  increased  from  100  to  125. 


3710  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

I  will  just  take  some  outstanding  cases.  Structural  and  ornamental; 
metal  work  which  was  in  the  doldrums  and  has  been  for  10  years^ 
jumped  from  76  to  85.  Wire-work  employment  increased  from  165  to 
187.  Agricultural-implements  employment,  from  117  to  134.  Elec- 
trical machinery,  from  97  to  115.  Foundry  and  machine  shops,  91  to 
106.  I  have  given  you  machine  tools.  Typewriters  from  124  to  127. 
That  is  not  as  great  but  it  is  still  an  increase.  Automobiles,  from  107 
to  123.  Locomotives,  from  25  to  39.  That  still  has  a  tremendous  dis- 
tance to  go  to  get  back  where  it  was  11  years  ago  but  it  has  made  a  big 
rise.  Aluminum  employment,  from  168  to  295.  Furniture,  from  94  ta 
97.  Lumber  and  millwork,  from  63  to  69.  Cotton  goods  relatively 
little — just  about  where  it  was  a  year  ago.  Boots  and  shoes  are  down 
slightly,  despite  Army  orders. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Do  you  anticipate,  Dr.  Lubin,  that  employment  in 
the  consumer  goods  industry  will  also  increase  as  a  result  of  this? 

Mr.  Lubin.  Our  estimates  are  to  the  effect  that  by  Christmas  of 
next  year  the  defense  program  will  have  created  about  4,000,000 
jobs.  In  other  words  there  will  be  4,000,00  people  working  on  de- 
fense orders  a  year  from  now  more  than  at  the  beginning  of  the 
defense  program. 

Last  summer  we  estimated  that  as  a  result  of  that  there  will  be 
an  increase  of  2,000,000  in  employment  in  those  activities  which 
make  the  things  that  these  defense  workers  will  require. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Will  consume  as  individuals?  You  do  not  mean  as 
factory  workers? 

Mr.  Lubin.  As  individuals.  In  other  words  we  estimate  about 
4,000,000  direct  defense  and  2,000,000  indirect,  which  gives  a  total 
of  6,000,000  more  people  than  were  employed  at  the  beginning  of 
the  summer. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  With  such  an  increase  in  prospect  is  it  not  likely 
there  will  be  an  increase  of  migration  from  rural  areas  to  urban 
areas? 

ARMY    AND    NAVY    WORKERS    SLEEP    ON    GROUND 

Mr.  Lubin.  Of  course  that  has  already  started. 

The  Army  and  Navy  have  made  provision  for  putting  up  new 
plants  and  in  many  instances  those  plants  have  been  located  in 
rural  areas.  In  one  case  that  I  have  in  mind,  people  by  the  hun- 
dreds and  thousands  came  into  a  rural  area  that  had  absolutely 
no  facilities  for  taking  care  of  them. 

People  were  sleeping  in  tents  and  on  the  bare  ground  without 
cover  over  them  and  with  little  sanitary  arrangement.  They  came 
not  only  from  the  immediate  rural  areas  but  many  from  the  larger 
cities.  Incidentally,  I  feel  that  some  definite  action  should  be  taken 
to  prevent  contractors  who'  get  contracts  for  new  plants  for  the 
Army  and  Navy  from  advertising  for  help.  I  think  they  should 
be  permitted  to  bring  with  them  the  skeleton  crews  that  they  need, 
people  who  know  their  way  of  doing  business,  but  in  terms  of  rank- 
and-file  workers  this  idea  of  advertising  in  the  newspapers  that  they 
want  people,  and  then  have  them  flock  into  an  area  which  creates 
artificial  migration,  that  is  a  thing  that  should  be  stopped;  and  I 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3711 

ihink  one  way  of  stopping  it  is  to  see  to  it  that  the  contractors  as 
part  of  their  contract  with  the  Government  undertake  to  use  the 
employment  service  to  the  largest  and  greatest  extent  wherever 
feasible. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Now,  has  your  department  compiled  any  figures  as 
to  the  amount  of  new  capital  investment  that  will  be  made  under 
the  defense  program  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Well,  our  figures  don't  deal  with  private  capital  in- 
vested. They  only  deal  with  the  actual  expenditures  to  be  made  by 
the  Government  itself. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  They  do  not  deal  with  the  private  investment  market 
at  all  ?  ' 

Mr.  LuBiN.  No. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Now,  when  this  is  all  over  and  when  I  say  this, 
Doctor,  I  mean  when  peace  comes  again  to  the  world,  what  will 
happen  to  these  national  defense  workers?  I  am  thinking  now  par- 
ticularly of  those  that  you  just  referred  to  that  are  migrating  from 
rural  areas  for  the  sole  purpose  of  working  in  a  defense  plant. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Well,  it  depends — I  think  that  is  a  pretty  large  bill 
jou  have  given  me,  sir.  I  think  it  will  depend  first  on  the  type  of 
peace  we  have  and  how  it  comes  about. 

I  happen  to  be  one  of  those  who  are  pessimistic  enough  to  believe 
that  this  defense  program  is  a  long-time  program.  I  don't  see  the 
end  of  it  in  a  year  or  2  years,  although  with  the  exception  of  certain 
battleships  most  of  the  contracts  call  for  completion  within  the  next 
2  years. 

I  think  the  program  is  going  to  go  beyond  that.  I  think  there  will 
be  new  appropriations  and  that  the  program  will  go  further  into  the 
iuture  than  we  anticipate. 

DEFENSE  PLANTS  KEPT  AS  "STAND-BYs" 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  am  tempted  to  agree  with  you,  Doctor,  but  I  think 
JOU  will  agree  with  me  that  some  day  it  must  end. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes ;  I  think  that  various  things  may  happen.  I  think 
that  in  many  instances  many  of  the  plants  that  are  being  erected 
will — I  don't  want  to  use  the  word  "abandon" — but  many  of  them 
will  be  kept  as  stand-by  plants.  In  other  words  they  will*  no  longer 
he  useful  except  for  a  future  emergency. 

At  the  end  of  the  last  war  we  dismantled  a  lot  of  plants,  and  we 
have  to  rebuild  them  now.  It  may  have  been  the  cheapest  way  to 
do  it.     I  don't  know. 

On  the  other  hand  there  will  be  other  plants  that  can  be  made 
available  for  other  types  of  activity.  The  extent  to  which  the  need 
•or  the  capacity  of  these  plants  as  well  as  other  plants  in  the  country 
will  be  required,  I  think  will  depend  entirely  on  what  happens  in  the 
next  year  or  2  in  terms  of  the  supply  of  goods  that  are  required  for 
•civilian  needs. 

To  be  concrete  there  is  a  group  in  this  country  that  feel  that  by 
next  year  there  will  be  a  shortage  of  steel.  In  other  words  there  will 
not  be  enough  steel  available  to  meet  the  needs  of  the  defense  indus- 
tries and  the  civilian  demands  as  well. 


3712 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Mr.  OsMERS.  To  ttike  a  concrete  example  you  would  suggest  auto- 
moblies  versus  tanks  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Exactly. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Or  refrigerators? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Exactly. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  There  will  not  be  enough  tanks  for  the  Government 
and  at  the  same  time  enough  automobiles  for  the  people? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes.  Now,  I  am  of  the  firm  conviction  that  as  far  as 
the  post-defense  period  is  concerned  if  we  make  provisions  for  that 
steel  now  so  that  we  can  maintain  employment  in  the  automobile 
industry  and  refrigerator  industry  and  all  the  steel-consuming  in- 
dustries, as  well  as  in  the  defense  'industries,  our  capacity  to  employ 
workers  will  be  greater  than  if  we  throw  out  of  employment  people 
now  engaged  in  meeting  civilian  needs. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  In  other  words,  you  would  say  if  it  were  possible  to 
keep  as  many  of  the  automobile  workers  that  are  now  engaged  in 
making  automobiles  still  in  the  automobile  industry,  the  better  off 
we  will  be  and  the  less  dislocation  we  will  have  at  the  end  of  this 
emergency  period. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Exactly  that.  I  might  put  it  the  other  way.  They 
need  not  be  the  same  people  if  we  need  them  in  making  defense 
things,  but  others  who  replace  them. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Try  to  keep  the  same  number  of  individuals  involved 
making  automobiles  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  In  other  words,  to  try  to  get  away  from  the  cannon 
versus  butter  theory  that  we  have  seen  in  operation  elsewhere. 

PLAN  FOR  FUTURE  OF  DEFENSE  W  ORKERS 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Exactly  that.  Now,  frankly,  our  ability  to  make  pro- 
vision for  the  people  now  in  defense  industries,  assuming  that  we  got 
a  sudden  dropping-off  employment  in  defense  industries,  depends 
upon  what  sort  of  provision  we  make  now  for  the  future.  For  exam- 
]j]e,  anybody  who  has  a  defense  order  or  who  wants  to  expand  his 
])lant  can  go  to  Uncle  Sam,  and  Uncle  Sam  will  give  him  certain  priv- 
ileges as  far  as  depreciati'm  is  concerned — permit  him  to  write  his 
plant  off  in  5  years.  But  \.ve  have  done  nothing  about  the  deprecia- 
tion of  the  man  who  leaves  his  job  today  to  go  into  defense  industry. 
People  are  leaving  their  jobs  for  defense  industries.  Not  only  that, 
but  in  some  instances  Uncle  Sam  is  putting  up  the  money  to  build  these 
plants  or  in  other  instances  where  private  capital  builds  them.  Uncle 
Sam  is  arranging  to  pay  for  them  over  a  period  of  time.  But  we  have 
done  nothing  about  the  worker  who  is  going  into  the  defense  industries 
and  giving  up  other  types  of  work. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  What  would  you  say  should  be  done  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  I  think  that  we  should  have  an  amortization  plan  for 
labor.  In  other  words,  there  should  be,  let  us  say,  some  addition  to 
the  present  unemployment  compensation  scheme  in  the  form  of  dis- 
missal wage.  I  think  Government  contracts  should  provide  that  any 
new  workers  taken  on  for  defense  work  should  have  set  aside,  in  a  si>e- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3713 

cial  account  for  those  workers,  a  dismissal  wage  which  will  be  avail- 
able to  them  when  their  services  are  no  longer  needed  for  defense. 

Now,  if  that  were  on  a  joint  basis,  let  us  say  5  percent  put  up  by  the 
woi'ker  and  5  percent  by  the  employer,  and  a  man  had  a  job,  say  foi'  2 
years — that  is  100  weeks.  A  man  earning  $20  a  week  would  have  accu- 
mulated over  $200,  or  10  weeks'  pay,  which  would  be  available  to  him 
when  he  is  no  longer  needed  by  the  defense  industries. 

I  think  that  purchasing  power  available  to  him  at  that  time  would 
liave  a  tremendous  eti'ect  upon  cushioning  the  etl'ect  of  the  let-down 
in  employment. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Has  John  Maynard  Keynes  suggested  such  a  thing? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Keynes  has  gone  further  than  that.  He  has  gone  in 
for  compulsory  savings  of  all  kinds.  In  other  words,  he  feels  that  we 
ought  to  cut  down  every  type  of  consumption  we  can  so  that  there 
will  be  a  pent-up  demand  available.    In  other  words,  forced  savings. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  You  have  to  save  it  until  you  can  buy  something  with 
it  ^  He  also  would  like  to  see  some  sort  of  defense-insurance  proposi- 
tion adopted  such  as  you  have  suggested^ 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  AVe  had  a  witness  in  here  the  other  day,  Msgr.  John  A. 
liyan,  who  thought  there  was  merit  in  the  plan  but  it  should  not  be 
compulsory. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Of  course,  my  feeling  is  that  there  is  no  merit  in  the 
jjlan  until  we  have  absorbed  the  unemployed  who  are  available  for 
Avork.  I  mean,  as  long  as  you  have  a  large  number  of  people  unem- 
ployed who  have  not  been  absorbed  yet,  why  do  anytliing  to  interfer<^ 
with  their  being  absorbed.  I  think  our  job  is  to  get  as  many  people 
at  work  as  we  possibly  can  and  only  after  we  have  no  unemployed  to 
care  for  or  no  problem  of  unemployment  of  any  large  size  is  the  time 
to  start  curtailing  consumj)tion. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Germany,  before  the  war,  and  England,  since  the  war, 
liave  taken  full  power  over  their  labor  supply.  In  the  event  of  full 
employment  in  the  United  States,  do  you  feel  that  the  United  States 
Government  should  also  institute  a  system  tf^  priorities  over  the  labor 
supply  of  the  United  States? 

Mr.  LuBix.  Not  until  we  have  cut  down  tW  number  of  unemployed. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  No;  in  the  event  of  full  em]  loyment. 

Mr.  LuBix.  Well,  of  course,  I  don't  like  to  see  the  Government 
imposing  priorities  until  it  is  absolutely  essential  to  the  welfare  of 
the  Nation,  and  I  think  rather  than  impose  priorities  I  would  say 
it  should  be  the  function  of  the  Government,  in  cooperation  with  the 
trade  unions  of  the  country  and  employers  of  the  country,  to  work 
out  a  voluntary  scheme  wdiereby  people  could  be  moved  from  one 
type  of  employment  to  another. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Well,  in  the  event  of  full  employment  I  can  see  a 
situation  whereby  the  word  "established"  would  hardly  be  the  w^ord 
to  use.  There  would  l)e  hot  and  bitter  competition  for  labor  among 
various  industries  and  it  might  take  rather  a  strong  hand  to  control 
such  a  situation. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  What  I  would  do  then  would  be  to  use  a  system  of 
taxation   rather   than   enforced   priorities;    or   the    Keynes   scheme 


;3714  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

whereby  through  popular  pressure  people  put  more  of  their  money 
into  savings  which  could  not  be  used  every  time  we  wanted  to  buy 
ourselves  a  new  automobile. 

We  tried  that  during  the  last  war  and  we  just  missed  by  one  step. 
The  idea  was  that  everybody  should  buy  bonds,  Liberty  Bonds  and 
other  types  of  bonds,  and  if  I  had  an  extra  $100  and  bought  a  bond, 
Uncle  Sam  would  have  the  $100  to  spend  and  I  wouldn't,  and  there- 
fore I  would  be  out  of  competition  with  Uncle  Sam  in  employing 
-$100  worth  of  labor. 

But  what  happened  was  that  I  bought  the  bond  and  then  went 
to  the  bank  and  borrowed  $100  on  it  and  Uncle  Sam  had  $100,  and 
I  had  a  Imndred. 

I  think  Ave  should  have  bonds  that  could  not  be  discounted  during 
the  period  of  emergency. 

SOME    SHORTAGE    OF    SKILLED    LABOR 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Is  there  a  shortage  of  skilled  labor  in  the  United 
States  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Of  certain  types  and  in  certain  areas;  yes. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Is  it  serious  or  is  it  large  or  is  it  important? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  No;  it  is  localized.  In  other  words  there  are  certain 
areas  where  you  cannot  get  the  type  of  labor  you  want  when  you  want 
it.  Now,  I  would  like  tol  point  this  fact  out,  however,  that  in  some 
instances  where  there  have  been  shortages  those  shortages  have  auto- 
matically corrected  themselves  by  the  employer  making  it  known  that 
he  has  changed  his  age  standards. 

I  know  of  one  plant,  for  example,  that  was  short  of  skilled  workers. 
They  had  an  age  limit  of  40.  They  increased  that  to  55  and  the 
shortageldisappeared. 

Mr.  OsMERs.  That  would,  of  course,  be  an  artificial  labor  shortage. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  And  I  think  a  large  number  of  these  artificial  labor 
shortages  in  too  many  instances  is  due  to  the  fact  that  industry 
is  still  thinking  in  the  terms  of  1933  to  1939.  In  other  words,  in 
those  days  the  employment  manager  could  go  to  the  window  and 
whistle,  and  an  unlimited  supply  of  skilled  labor  would  show  up. 
During  that  period  they  could  make  their  standards  more  rigid. 
They  could  pick  more  carefully.  There  were  age  limits  and  a  lot 
of  other  limiting  factors— color,  race,  all  of  which  in  times  like  these 
limit  the  supply  of  labor  available. 

I  feel  that  some  of  the  shortages  that  we  hear  about  today  can  be 
eliminated.  They  are  artificial  and  are  created  in  some  measure  by 
artificial  restrictions. 

In  some  industries  of  course  that  is  not  so.  There  are  particular 
crafts  such  as  lens  grinders.  We  just  don't  have  anywhere  near 
enough  of  them.  The  reason  is  we  have  never  needed  very  many 
lens  grinders.  Then  all  of  a  sudden  we  develop  an  industry  where 
lens  grinders  are  needed. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  In  the  event  that  we  should  have  full  employment, 
and  in  the  event  that  we  should  have  competitive  bidding  for  labor, 
would  you  say  that  the  Federal  Government  should  exercise  control 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3715 

over  the  labor  situation,  possibly  by  setting  standard  wages  and 
hours  in  certain  essential  defense  industries? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  I  don't  think  the  Government  should  do  that.  I 
think  industry  and  organized  workers  should  agree  among  them- 
selves what  the  standards  should  be. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  And  in  the  event  they  did  not  what  would  you  sug- 
gest? You  are  an  optimist  ^yith  respect  to  some  of  those  things.  I 
am  thinking  now  of  the  strikes  that  have  occurred  in  defense  in- 
dustries at  a  time  when  there  is  every  incentive  for  not  having  a 
strike. 

FEW    DEFENSE   STRIKES 

Mr.  LuBiN.  If  I  might  make  a  statement  on  that  particular 
point 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Go  right  ahead,  Doctor. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  There  have  been  fewer  strikes  and  there  have  been 
fewer  days  lost  due  to  strikes  during  the  5  months  from  May  to 
October  during  which  the  defense  program  was  under  way,  than 
there  were  for  the  same  5  months  in  1916  when  we  were  geared 
for  armament  production  for  the  Allies,  and  during  the  same  5 
months  of  1917  when  we  were  in  the  war.  There  has  been  no 
important  strike  in  any  defense  industry  in  the  United  States  of 
any  significance  with  the  exception  of  two  which  occurred  within 
the  last  3  weeks,  one  in  a  relatively  small  airplane  factory  in  Cali- 
fornia and  one  in  the  aluminum  industry.  In  one  case  there  was 
a  4-day  strike  and  in  the  other  case  a  7-day  strike.  As  far  as  the 
strike  record  of  the  country  is  concerned,  I  think  both  employers 
and  laborers  are  to  be  congratulated.  I  think  they  have  done  a 
remarkable  job  and  if  it  were  not  for  that  particular  strike  in  an 
airplane  factory  I  doubt  whether  we  would  have  heardfa-  thing 
about  labor  difficulties. 

Mr.  OsMERs.  I  do  not  personally  believe  that  labor  should  be 
deprived  of  its  right  to  strike.  I  believe  that  every  safeguard 
against  a  strike  should  be  placed,  however,  in  a  contract  that  is 
humanly  possible  to  put  in — every  opportunity  for  mediation  and 
every  provision  for  it,  but  do  you  agree  that  their  basic  right  to 
strike  should  be  preserved? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Absolutely,  After  all.  in  many  instances  that  is  the 
only  protection  that  labor  has. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  You  do  feel  though  that  in  our  defense  contracts 
we  should  make  every  possible  provision  to  avoid  a  strike? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes;  I  think  so.  I  think  that  the  employers  and 
workers  in  their  joint  agreements  should  make  provision  for  volun- 
tary arbitration  of  any  question  that  arises  during  the  life  of 
the  contract.  That  is  standard  practice  in  every  good  trade-union 
contract.  It  is  as  true  of  the  A.  F.  of  L.  as  of  the  C.  I.  O. 
All  modern,  good  labor  contracts  make  provision  for  arbitrating 
any  dispute  that  arises  out  of  the  interpretation  of  the  contract 
during  its  life. 


260370— 41— pt. 


3716 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Mr.  OsMERS.  When  business  conditions  pick  up  and  employinent 
opportunities  increase  is  it  not  true  that  labor  turn-over  and  migra- 
tion from  one  place  to  another  increases? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes.  I  have  some  interesting  figures  that  I  brought 
with  me  which  might  give  you  some  idea  as  to  what  has  happened 
right  here  in  the  District  of  Columbia. 

We  have  in  Washington,  as  you  know,  a  navy  yard.  We  have  been 
trying  to  find  out  where  the  new  employees  in  that  navy  yard  have 
been  coming  from.  We  took  only  skilled  workers,  namely,  ma- 
chinists, tool  makers,  and  instrument  makers,  for  the  period  of  3 
months,  June,  July,  and  August,  and  here  is  the  story : 

Of  the  95  skilled  workers  who  were  hired,  taken  at  random,  1  came 
from  Alabama,  1  from  California,  1  from  Connecticut,  1  from 
Florida,  3  from  Illinois,  1  from  Indiana,  1  from  Iowa,  18  from 
Maryland,  and  1  each  from  Michigan,  Minnesota,  and  Missouri. 
Eight  came  from  New  York  and  5  from  North  Carolina.  Four  from 
Ohio,  15  from  Pennsylvania,  and  1  each  from  Rhode  Island,  Ten- 
nessee, and  Texas,  and  2  from  Virginia.  There  were  4  from  West 
Virginia,  from  Wisconsin  4,  from  the  District  of  Columbia  4,  and 
16  unspecified. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  How  many  States  are  represented  there.  Doctor? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Twenty-three  States  which  cover  76  people  and  the 
balance  unspecified. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  In  other  words  about  three  from  a  State? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  would  like  to  make  the  observation  that  employment 
seems  to  cause  as  much  migration  as  unemployment, 

MIGRATED  TO  WATERTOWN,  MASS. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  I  have  the  same  data  for  170  skilled  workers  at  the 
Watertown  Arsenal  in  Massachusetts,  outside  of  Boston. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  How  many  workers  involved? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  One  hundred  and  seventy.  One  from  California,  10 
from  Connecticut,  1  from  Maine,  2  from  Michigan,  1  from  Minnesota, 
3  from  New  Hampshire,  2  from  New  York,  3  from  Pennsylvania, 

3  from  Rhode  Island,  3  from  Vermont,  and  141  from  Massachusetts. 
Mr.   OsMERs.  The   gentleman   from   Nebraska   and   I,   from   New 

Jersey,  are  waiting  for  our  States  to  be  mentioned. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  They  are  going  into  your  States. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Could  you  give  us  the  ratio  of  the  number  of  men 
employed  in  durable-  and  non-durable-goods  industries? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  I  think  I  can.     It  will  run  about  8  for  the  durable  to 

4  for  the  nondurable. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  In  the  general  relationship  8  to  4. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  About  one  to  one  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes,  sir. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3717 

TRAINING  OF  APPRENTICES 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  wonder  if  you  would  care  to  give  your  views  Dr. 
Lubin,  on  vocational  training.  The  committee  has  in  nearly  all  its 
hearings  been  confronted  with  the  lack  of  vocational  training  in- 
formation for  American  youth.  I  wonder  if  you  have  any  views  on 
the  subject. 

Mr.  Lubin.  Of  course,  the  problem  of  vocational  training  is  very 
nuich  like  the  problem  of  apprenticeship  training.  AVhen  there  are 
no  jobs  for  people  it  is  hard  to  get  people  to  take  an  apprenticeship 
course.  It  is  hard  to  train  apprentices  when  you  don't  have  any  jour- 
neymen working  who  can  train  them.  And,  of  course,  during  the  past 
10  years  neither  industry  has  wanted  to  go  to  the  expense  of  training 
apprentices  nor  has  labor  seen  any  necessity  for  permitting  new  ap- 
prentices to  be  tniined  when  labor  itself  had  difficulty  in  finding  jobs 
for  its  already  skilled  workers. 

Such  vocational  guidance  as  we  had,  had  grown  up  along  given 
lines ;  and  the  type  of  vocational  guidance  that  was  available  was  de- 
termined by  the  type  of  equipment  available,  for  the  most  part  was 
woodworking  equipment,  printing  equipment,  and  things  of  that  sort. 

The  number  of  vocational  schools  in  America,  which  at  the  begin- 
ning of  the  defense  program  Avere  equipped  to  give  good  training  in 
metal  work,  was  very,  very  small. 

During  the  defense  program  an  attempt  has  been  made  to  increase 
the  facilities  of  these  schools  so  that  training  can  be  given  for  indus- 
tries where  these  workers  will  be  required, 

Mr.  Parsons.  Just  in  that  connection,  Dr.  Lubin,  we  are  training 
a  great  many  youth  now  through  the  N.  Y.  A.  and  private  schools, 
and  so  on,  for  one  or  two  simple  operations  in  certain  lines — certain 
occupations.  Aren't  we  creating  a  new  problem  for  us  whenever  this 
defense  program  is  over  with  when  they  have  been  taught  only  one 
or  two  operations?     They  will  not  be  efficient,  skilled  workers. 

Mr.  Lubin.  Well,  of  course,  your  problem  of  training  an  efficient, 
skilled  worker  through  the  apprenticeship  route  is  a  slow,  long-time 
program.  In  some  instances  it  takes  2  or  3  years  to  make  a  full-fledged 
journeyman. 

Mr.  Parsons.  And  we  have  neglected  that  kind  of  training. 

Mr.  Lubin.  Very  definitely,  'for  10  years.  The  Department  of 
Labor  has  done  the  best  it  could  to  expand  apprenticeship  work.  It 
has  done  a  very  good  job. 

Mr.  Parson.  The  European  nations  have  been  far  ahead  of  us  be- 
cause of  more  than  a  century  of  training  skilled  workers. 

Mr.  Lubin.  Yes;  and  we  have  been  particularly  laggard  in  the  last 
10  years.  In  fact  prior  to  the  establishment  of  the  apprenticeship 
division  in  the  Department  of  Labor  there  was  no  organized  way  of 
even  stimulating  the  apprenticeship  training  of  the  country. 

Now,  we  are  faced  with  this  situation :  If  we  are  going  to  have  to 
add  6.000,000  people  to  the  industries  of  this  country  to  take  care  of 
our  needs  for  the  next  year,  we  cannot  wait  long  enough  to  train  all 
the  skilled  people  required.  It  does  not  mean,  however,  that  hand  in 
hand  Avith  a  vocational  guidance  system  you  should  not  push  the  ap- 


3718  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

prentice  system  so  that  2  years  hence  we  may  have  a  sufficient  supply 
of  highly  skilled  people  to  carry  on. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Right  in  that  connection,  what  is  the  difference  be- 
tween the  new  method  of  handling  skilled  labor  by  what  you  might 
call  the  upgrading  of  labor  and  the  old  method  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Well,  one  grows  out  of  the  other,  in  a  sense.  The 
present  method  of  upgrading  starts  out  with  an  assumption  that 
you  have  an  order  to  fill.  That  order  requires  you  to  have  a  certain 
number  of  milling-machine  operators,  let  us  say,  or  automatic  screw 
machine  operators.  Now,  in  the  past  when  you  needed  automatic- 
machine  operators  you  went  to  the  employment  service  or  adver- 
tised in  the  papers  or  told  somebody  in  the  plant  you  had  a  job  open 
and  he  brought  somebody  in.  In  other  words  you  brought  in  new 
people.  Now,  you  cannot  do  that  any  longer.  The  men  that  are 
needed  are  not  available  in  many  areas.  The  idea  of  upgrading  is 
to  have  the  employer  pick  somebody  who  is  doing  a  job  which  isn't 
highly  skilled.  The  worker  selected  may  be  operating  an  ordinary 
lathe,  or  he  may  be  a  riveter.  But  he  is  a  person  who  has  ability, 
who  seems  to  have  mechanical  sense.  The  idea  is  to  give  him  addi- 
tional training  so  that  he  can  be  moved  from  the  semiskilled  job  to 
the  more  skilled  job. 

It  may  not  be  a  highly  skilled  job,  but  the  idea  is  to  move  people 
up  and  to  save  time,  and  then  bring  in  new  people  at  the  bottom 
rather  than  bring  people  in  from  the  outside  to  fill  the  top  jobs. 

Mr.  OsMERs.  It  is  based  upon  promotion  of  their  present  em- 
ployees ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Entirely  that. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  That  is  all. 

The  Chairman.  Dr.  Lubin,  do  you  think  the  principle  of  the  ladies' 
bonnets  mentioned  by  you  applies  equally  well  to  agriculture? 

agriculture  exempt  from  migrant  care 

Mr.  Lubin.  Exactly.  I  think  one  of  our  difficulties  has  been  that 
we  have — I  would  not  say  one  of  our  difficulties,  but  one  of  our 
problems  that  has  arisen  from  the  fact  that  we  have  exempted  agri- 
culture from  the  responsibility  of  taking  care  of  those  people  whom 
they  need  only  for  certain  months  in  the  year  and  whom  they  expect 
to  have  back  again  year  after  year. 

Somebody  has  had  to  provide  for  those  people  during  the  time 
they  are  not  wanted.  We  haven't  organized  our  industries  so  we 
can  dovetail  their  activities  so  that  when  they  leave  agriculture  they 
can  go  into  something  else.  The  result  is  that  these  agricultural 
workers  become  a  burden  upon  he  community  where  they  happen 
to  be  at  the  moment.  I  feel  that  at  least  large-scale  agriculture 
should  be  subject  to  unemployment  compensation  and  the  Wage  and 
Hour  Act  and  I  would  even  go  so  far  as  to  say  they  should  be  subject  to 
the  Wagner  Act. 

The  Chairman.  I  was  very  much  interested,  Doctor,  in  your 
thought  regarding  displaced  workers  on  account  of  mechanization. 
In  other  words,  in  this  country  we  have  taken  care  of  the  creatures 
of  man  like  iron  and  coal  and  steel  passing  through  the  States  and 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3719 

between  the  States.  We  liave  given  them  a  status.  We  have  given 
them  technical  regulation  through  interstate  commerce,  but  we 
haven't  done  so  very  much  for  the  interstate  commerce  of  human 
beings. 

Mr.  LuBiN,  Nothing  at  all. 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  any  idea  why  that  is  always  the  last 
to  be  considered? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  I  suppose  that  is  one  of  the — I  don't  know  just  how 
to  describe  it — it  is  a  commentary  on  our  civilization. 

The  Chairman.  There  is  no  business  firm  of  any  account  at  all 
that  does  not  charge  off  depreciation  for  their  buildings  and  for 
their  machinery. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  They  would  go  bankrupt  if  they  didn't. 

The  Chairman.  But  you  have  never  heard  of  any  of  them  charg- 
ing off  for  human  depreciation  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Maybe  that  is  the  answer.  If  they  didn't  charge  off 
their  buildings  they  would  go  bankrupt  and  lose  their  property. 
They  have  never  been  made  to  charge  off  labor,  so  nobody  has  done 
anything  about  it.  In  other  words  if  they  knew  they  would  go 
into  bankruptcy  if  they  failed  to  make  provision  for  their  human 
resources  they  might  be  more  interested  in  doing  something  about  it. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  care  to  comment  on  whether  or  not  there 
is  going  to  be  a  tendency  for  decentralization  of  industry  due  to 
the  national-defense  program,  especially  in  those  phases  that  are 
apt  to  become  permanent? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  There  is  a  move  on  foot  now  to  decentralize  the  de- 
fense industries  wherever  possible.  For  example,  when  the  Army 
or  Navy  wants  to  erect  a  new  plant,  whether  they  are  going  to  do 
it  through  contract  or  do  it  directly  themselves,  for  the  making  of 
powder,  or  the  loading  of  munitions,  or  things  of  that  sort,  the  site 
is  submitted  to  the  Defense  Commission  for  its  approval. 

The  Defense  Commission  has,  through  its  various  members,  checked 
on  these  sites  in  terms  of  labor  supply  that  is  available,  and  the 
Commissioner  in  charge  of  agriculture  and  the  Commissioner  in 
charge  of  labor  have  been  very,  very  careful  to  see  to  it  that  wherever 
possible  these  plants  be  put  in  the  areas  where  there  is  already  a 
surplus  of  labor  so  that  these  new  plants  will  not  be  put  up  in  areas 
^\•here  you  would  have  to  bring  in  large  numbers  of  new  people, 
and  after  you  got  them  there  build  homes  for  them,  when  there  are 
other  places  where  the  same  technical  resources  are  available,  namely, 
water  power,  transportation,  as  well  as  labor  and  housing.  As  a 
matter  of  fact  both  the  Conunissioner  in  charge  of  agriculture  and 
the  Commissioner  in  charge  of  labor  have  not  only  been  very  anxious 
to  see  to  it  that  plants  go  to  such  places,  but  they  have  been  seeking 
places  out  where  such  plants  could  go  in  the  event  that  the  Army 
comes  to  them  for  ideas  for  the  erection  of  new  plants. 

"ghost  towns"  for  defense  industries 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  assuming  that  all  of  the  factors  of  transporta- 
tion, power,  and  water,  and  so  on  are  available,  do  you  favor  the 


3720  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

placing  of  defense  industries  in  the  industrial  areas,  or  in  what 
might  be  termed  "ghost  towns,"  or  do  yon  think  they  should  be  moved 
or  placed  in  those  areas  where  there  is  a  supply  of  labor  due  to 
displacement,  and  where  there  is  a  very  definite  need  for  supple- 
mental income? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  In  terms  of  defense,  as  such,  the  first  advantage  of  the 
"ghost  town"  is  that  the  plant  is  there.  You  save  time.  Secondly, 
the  supply  of  skilled  labor  in  many  instances  is  there — you  don't 
have  to  train  anybody,  you  don't  have  to  bring  anybody  in.  The 
housing  is  also  there,  and  if  you  are  thinking  in  terms  of  getting 
defense  products  made  as  fast  as  you  possibly  can  get  them,  I  would 
say  yes. 

Mr.  CuKTis.  Isn't  it  true  that  most  of  the  defense  housing  projects 
have  been  necessary  in  those  areas  which  ordinarily  are  considered  in 
the  industrial  area. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  But  not  in  ghost  towns.  Most  of  your  housing  proj- 
ects have  been  in  areas  like  shipyard  areas  where  you  had  a  sudden 
increase  in  employment.  In  those  places  you  had  to  increase  your 
labor  supply  very  markedly  and  most  of  the  housing  activities  are 
in  those  areas. 

We  haven't  availed  ourselves  of  any  ghost  towns  yet.  If  we  have 
an  alternative  between  a  ghost  town  with  a  skilled  labor  supply  and 
available  factory  equipment  I  would  give  preference  to  the  ghost 
town. 

On  the  other  hand,  if  the  problem  is  one  which  requires  building 
a  new  plant  anyway  and  does  not  require  a  very  specialized  type  of 
high  skill — in  other  words,  a  type  of  skill  that  can  be  developed  rather 
quickly  in  the  agricultural  areas,  then  I  would  say  that  the  agricul- 
tural areas  should  be  selected  every  time. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  have  any  figures  to  show  that  the  agricultural 
areas  do  not  have  any  skilled  labor  available  among  the  people  who 
have  gone  some  place  to  live  when  they  lost  their  jobs  at  home? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  No;  I  don't  think  there  is  a  single  agricultural  area 
in  the  country  where  there  is  no  skilled  labor.  But  when  you  have  to 
get  1,000  skilled  people  from  a  relatively  small  radius  then  your 
problem  might  become  an  acute  one. 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  there  is  a  definite  saving  in  building  and  land 
and  housing  cost  in  the  rural  areas,  is  there  not  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Insofar  as  the  rural  area  is  within  a  reasonable  com- 
muting distance  and  can  furnish  the  labor  that  you  need. 

I  ran  across  a  case  the  other  day.  One  of  my  men  reported  to  me 
that  he  had  been  up  North  visiting  a  shipyard  and  they  said  they  had 
no  problem  securing  labor.  They  said  their  people  like  to  drive  back 
and  forth  to  work.  They  have  some  peo]:)le  driving  as  many  as  35 
and  40  miles  a  day  each  way.  Well,  I  am  not  so  sure  that  they  are 
going  to  like  to  drive  over  snow  and  ice  40  miles  each  way  ancl  add 
anywhere  from  1  to  3  hours  to  their  working  day,  going  to  and  from 
their  job.  There  is  a  limit  to  the  commuting  area.  Insofar  as 
skilled  labor  is  available  in  a  given  commuting  area,  if  the  type  of 
work  to  be  done  is  of  such  a  nature  that  you  can  meet  your  labor 
needs  from  the  existing  population,  and  if  the  type  of  plant  required 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3721 

is  of  such  a  nature  that  you  would  have  to  build  it  anyway,  no 
matter  where,  then  I  should  say  we  should  give  the  rural  areas  first 
choice.     And,  in  fact,  I  would  select  rural  areas  every  time. 

Mr.  Curtis.  There  are  many  rural  areas  where  there  is  an  ample 
supply  of  labor  as  well  as  a  great  need  for  supplemental  income  clue 
to  periodical  drought  and  other  such  conditions.  Would  you  favor 
locating  defense  program  plants  in  such  areas  provided  there  was  an 
ample  supply  of  labor  as  well  as  a  great  need  for  supplemental 
income  in  that  territory  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  I  would  say  that  in  terms  of  so-called  semiskilled  labor, 
namely,  the  machine  operator,  your  potential  labor  supply  in  the 
rural  areas  is  as  great  as  you  will  ever  need. 

I  was  impressed  when  I  saw  the  so-called  migratory  workers  in 
California  and  Arizona  last  spring.  The  fact  is  that  these  boys  had 
come  with  their  families  from  Nebraska,  Iowa,  Arkansas,  Alabama, 
and  Oklahoma  in  a  1923,  1924,  or  1925  model  car.  When  I  was 
talking  to  some  of  the  airplane  people  in  Los  Angeles,  I  said : 

Why  don't  you  give  these  boys  jobs?     You  need  labor. 

There  was  a  hesitancy.     They  said  they  were  not  good  mechanics. 

My  contention  is  that  any  man  who  can  go  from  Nebraska  to  Los 
Angeles  in  a  1925  Ford  without  any  money  in  his  pocket  must  be  a 
very  good  meclianic. 

Mr.  Curtis.  This  morning  we  had  before  us  two  Kansas  boys,  one  20 
and  one  22.  They  were  mechanics  working  in  Baltimore  and  both 
moved  half  way  across  the  continent  because  there  were  no  such  oppor- 
tunities anywhere  near  where  they  lived.  Both  preferred  to  be  back 
in  the  Great  Plains  where  they  might  be  of  some  assistance  to  their 
parents  and  where  they  preferred  to  live. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  That  is  one  of  the  things  we  are  doing  in  the  Labor 
Division  of  the  Defense  Commission,  namely,  to  find  ways  of  mobiliz- 
ing the  resources  of  rural  areas. 

Let  me  give  you  a  concrete  illustration.  I  shall  not  name  the  city 
but  there  is  a  city  in  the  Middle  West  which  is  not  an  industrial  center 
in  the  sense  that  it  has  any  large  industries.  I  think  it  has  one  plant 
that  employs  as  many  as  a  thousand  people,  but  within  a  radius  of  60 
miles  of  that  community  are  all  sorts  of  little  machine  shops. 

One  of  the  people  from  that  city  has  made  a  survey  of  the  facilities 
of  some  71  plants,  large  and  small,  within  a  radius  of  some  50  miles. 
He  knows  what  machinery  is  there.  He  knows  what  they  have  made 
in  the  past. 

WOULD  SPREAD  PLANT  PRODUCTION 

Now,  one  of  the  things  that  our  Division  is  trying  to  do  in  the 
Defense  Commission  is  to  see  whether  we  can  coordinate  these  small 
plants.  In  other  words,  can  we,  among  those  71  plants,  find  one  prod- 
uct which  could  be  so  subdivided  that  each  of  them  could  have  a  little 
work  to  do  and  feed  it  into  a  central  point  where  it  could  be  assembled. 

That  is  quite  different  from  the  so-called  subcontracting  system 
where  you  give  one  large  contract  to  a  contractor  and  he  goes  around 
looking  for  subcontractors. 


3722  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Our  idea  is  to  get  the  subcontractors,  figure  out  what  they  can  feed 
into  the  central  plant,  and  then  determine  the  product  and  see  if  we 
cannot  get  an  order  on  that  basis. 

The  city  I  mentioned  is  in  the  heart  of  a  rural  area.  We  are  trying 
to  do  the  "same  thing  in  some  of  the  northwestern  areas.  The  equip- 
ment is  there,  the  population  is  there,  the  housing  is  there,  the  inhabi- 
tants of  the  immediate  community  need  supplemental  income. 

Now,  how  can  we  harness  all  of  these  things,  particularly  when  we 
need  their  services  ? 

MEN  OF  DRAFT  AGE  DENIED  JOBS 

Mr.  OsMEES.  Dr.  Lubin,  during  the  World  War  approximately 
500,000  Negroes  came  from  the  South  to  the  North  to  seek  employment 
in  war  industries. 

Charges  are  being  made  today  that  Negroes  are  being  discriminated 
against  in  defense  industries.    Are  those  charges  true  ? 

Mr.  Lubin.  I  cannot  answer  that  question.  Certain  complaints  hare 
been  brought  to  our  office  in  the  Defense  Commission.  In  one  instance 
it  was  said  the  charges  were  not  true,  but  the  situation  was  cleared  up. 
In  other  words,  what  happened  was  that  the  employer  concerned  said 
the  charge  was  not  true  and  the  next  day  proceeded  to  hire  some 
Negroes. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  know  in  my  congressional  work  I  have  had  several 
instances  of  discrimination  brought  to  my  attention,  and  while  we 
are  on  the  subject  of  discrimination  against  labor  in  defense  indus- 
tries, there  have  been  instances  that  have  come  to  my  knowledge  where 
workers  of  certain  nationalities  and  extractions  have  been  discrim- 
inated against. 

I  think  they  were  cured  by  somewhat  the  same  method  that  you 
have  mentioned.  I  know  I  have  called  it  to  the  attention  of  the  man- 
agement and  they  went  into  very  long  denials  but  started  to  employ 
some  of  these  people  very  shortly  thereafter. 

Now,  another  situation  that  has  arisen,  and  I  am  sure  you  must  be 
very  conscious  of  it,  a  great  many  industries  in  the  United  States 
will  not  employ  single  men  between  the  ages  of  21  and  35  if  they 
believe  they  may  be  drafted. 

Now,  is  there  some  solution  for  that  situation  or  are  these  young 
men  to  be  told  that  they  should  be  among  the  unemployed  until  they 
are  called  for  the  draft  ? 

Mr.  Lubin.  I  have  had  that  same  charge  made  to  me  about  some 
Government  offices.  I  have  no  evidence  as  to  the  validity  of  the 
charge.  I  even  have  had  people  say  to  me  that  they  understand  that 
some  offices  are  not  taking  anybody  who  might  be  drafted. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  have  not  heard  that  charge  in  connection  with  any 
Government  office. 

Mr.  Lubin.  It  came  to  me  through  an  individual,  and  as  I  say, 
I  haven't  investigated  it.  I  don't  know  whether  it  is  true  or  not.  It 
may  be  that  this  person  was  just  dissatisfied  because  he  could  not  get 
a  job.  But  I  have  heard  the  charge  made.  We  have  not  received 
such  charges  at  the  Defense  Commission. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3723 

Mr.  OsMERS.  You  have  not  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  We  have  not.  The  first  time  I  heard  of  it,  as  I  say,  was 
concerning  the  Government  itself. 

My  practice  at  the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics  is  to  give  preference 
to  such  a  person  if  for  no  other  reason  than  that  he  deserves  employ- 
ment more  than  somebody  else  because  of  the  sacrifices  that  he  is  going 
to  have  to  make  by  serving  in  the  Army. 

If  you  are  going  to  refuse  to  give  a  job  to  a  person  because  he  is  of 
draft  age  and  leave  him  unemployed  and  leave  him  dissatisfied,  what 
kind  of  a  draftee  is  he  going  to  be  once  he  is  in  the  Army  ? 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  can  cite  you,  Dr.  Lubin,  and  I  know  the  files  in  my 
office  would  carry  a  dozen  instances  of  actual  cases,  places,  names, 
dates,  and  plants  and,  of  course,  I  can  see  the  employer's  side  of  it, 
too.  If  a  man  is  to  be  drafted  in  6  months  or  a  year,  it  is  understood 
that  probably  the  first  6  months  of  his  employment  the  employee 
would  not  be  of  great  commercial  value  to  his  employer  and  just  at 
the  time  when  he  might  become  of  some  value  to  him  he  would  leave 
for  a  year. 

Mr.  Lubin.  Of  course  I  cannot  see  that.  I  am  an  employer  of  300 
people  and  of  course  it  is  not  my  money  that  I  am  spending.  The 
fact  is  that  when  a  good  man  comes  in  today  and  learns  the  routine 
of  my  Bureau  and  is  taken  away  6  months  or  a  year  hence,  I  am  put 
in  an  embarrassing  position  because  I  must  replace  him  and  train 
a  new  person.  But  if  I  am  unwilling  to  help  maintain  the  morale 
of  the  fellow  who  is  going  to  be  drafted,  then  I  am  not  fit  to  be  an 
employer. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  think  you  will  find  there  are  many  many  instances 
of  that. 

Now,  have  you  found  draft  boards  generally  are  taking  exceptions 
of  young  men  who  are  employed  in  the  essential  war  industries? 

Mr.  Lubin.  Very  few  cases  have  been  brought  to  our  attention  by 
employers  where  men  were  not  being  exempted  who  were  deemed 
essential. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  liave  had  no  definite  case  brought  to  my  attention; 
I  was  just  asking  the  general  question.  Do  you  expect  there  will 
be  a  great  many  employment  opportunities  for  women  in  industry 
as  a  result  of  the  defense  program? 

]Mr.  Lubin.  Yes;  I  think  that  the  actual  employment  of  women 
will  increase.  For  instance  you  take  the  airplane  industry.  There 
are  virtually  no  women  employed  in  the  airplane  industry  and  yet 
there  are  a  lot  of  processes  in  the  industry  that  women  could  do 
equally  well.  Once  you  get  to  the  point  where  the  unemployed  semi- 
skilled workers  are  absorbed  in  increasing  numbers  and  it  become  dif- 
ficult to  meet  labor  requirements,  I  think  that  the  number  of  women 
employed  will  increase  very  markedly. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Would  you  care  to  make  any  guess  into  the  future, 
Dr.  Lubin,  as  to  the  probable  amount  of  money  that  the  Federal 
Government  will  have  to  spend  annually  to  maintain  full  employ- 
ment? 

Mr.  Lubin.  I  don't  know  that. 


3724 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Mr.  OsMERS.  Do  you  feel  that  there  ^Yill  always  be  the  necessity 
for  the  Federal  Government  to  include  large  sums  in  its  budget  for 
the  purpose  of  employing  idle  Americans  ? 

Mr.  LuBiN.  No;  but  that  depends  somewhat  on  what  you  mean 
by  large  sums. 

Mr.  OsMERs.  I  mean  in  the  billions. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  I  don't  think  it  need  to  run  into  billions.  Each  time 
the  head  of  a  family  gets  a  job  the  necessity  of  his  wife  seeking  a 
job  or  his  daughter  or  his  soon  seeking  a  job  decreases. 

The  records  will  show  what  effect  employment  has  on  unemploy- 
ment. In  other  words  every  time  you  add  a  person  to  the  pay  roll 
you  subtract  more  than  one  person  from  the  unemployed.  I  say 
more  than  one  person  from  the  unemployed,  because  when  a  father 
is  unemployed  he  may  have  three  children  seeking  employment. 
Wlien  he  finds  a  job  two  of  them  may  go  back  to  high  school. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Thereby  with  one  job  you  have  taken  three  people 
from  the  unemployed  rolls. 

Mr.  LuBiN.  Yes. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  That  is  all  I  have. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you  very  much,  Dr.  Lubin.  Your  contri- 
bution has  been  very  valuable  and  we  thank  you  very  much. 

Our  next  witness  is  Mr.  Eliot. 

Mr.  Eliot,  will  you  please  give  your  full  name  and  in  what  capac- 
ity you  appear  here? 

Mr.  Eliot,  Charles  William  Eliot,  Director  of  the  National  Ee- 
sources  Planning  Board. 

TESTIMONY  OF  CHARLES  WILLIAM  ELIOT,  DIRECTOR,  NATIONAL 
RESOURCES  PLANNING  BOARD 

The  Chairman.  We  are  very  pleased  to  have  you  appear  before 
this  committee,  and  the  distinguished  gentleman  from  Illinois,  Mr. 
Parsons,  will  interrogate  you. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Mr.  Eliot,  you  have  a  statement  which  has  just  been 
presented  to  us.  Do  you  desire  to  read  the  statement  and  then  an- 
swer any  questions  that  may  come  to  us  ? 

Mr.  Eliot  (reading)  : 

The  National  Resources  Planning  Board,  which  I  serve,  has  followed  with 
great  interest  the  study  of  migration  which  your  committee  has  been  making 
and  is  glad  to  have  been  of  some  assistance  in  providing  materials  and  in- 
formation through  its  past  reports  and  the  testimony  of  the  members  of  its 
staff.  As  you  are,  of  course,  aware,  the  Board  is  required  by  law  to  be  in- 
formed of  "the  trends  of  business  and  employment  in  the  United  States  or  any 
substantial  part  thereof"  and  to  make  recommendation  to  the  President  as  to 
the  need  for  Government  action. 

We  have  noted  that  your  committee  has  found  that  the  study  of  migration 
inevitably  involves  the  forces  which  produce  migration — for  example,  you  have 
heard  about  the  changes  in  agricultural  practices  and  industrial  practices  which 
have  resulted  in  the  displacement  of  workers.  These  people  have  been  joining 
the  ranks  of  those  who  move  from  one  place  to  another  in  order  to  find  an 
opportunity  for  earning  a  living. 

REPORT  ON  TWO  PHASES   OF  MIGRATION 

Two  aspects  of  this  problem  have  previously  been  reported  upon  by  the  Board 
and  its  predecessors,  and  I  understand  that  the  resulting  reports  on  problems 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3725 

of  a  changing  population  in  1938  and  on  technological  trends  in  1937  have  been 
of  some  use  to  your  investigators  and  their  research  staff.  I  have  copies  of 
those  reports  here  today,  and,  of  course,  would  be  delighted  to  make  them 
available  to  the  members  of  your  committee. 

The  Board  has  also  been  glad  to  have  their  current  materials  made  available 
to  you  in  testimony  which  your  committee  heard  on  the  west  coast  when  em- 
ployees of  the  Board  testified  from  their  own  experience.  As  part  of  your 
records,  you  have  a  statement  from  the  Pacific  Northwest  Regional  Planning 
Commission  and  the  individual  testimony  of  some  of  our  staff  in  that  office  and 
in  our  California  office.  That  testimony  indicates  the  way  in  which  industrial 
and  agricultural  changes  are  directly  related  to  the  specific  problems  of  the 
Great  Plains,  the  Pacific  Northwest,  and  the  California  area. 

The  Board  has  been  concerned  with  the  problems  of  "removal"  migrants  from 
the  point  of  view  of  the  places  from  which  they  leave  as  well  as  of  the  places 
to  which  they  go.  Through  our  field  offices  and  special  regional  committees  we 
have  made  a  series  of  planning  studies — in  the  northern  Great  Plains,  the 
valley  of  the  Red  River  of  the  North,  and  the  northern  Lakes  States  cut- 
over  area.  These  planning  investigations  are  intended  to  develop  the  possible 
lines  of  action  for  Federal,  State,  and  local  governments  to  stabilize  the  economy 
in  those  areas  and  to  provide  economic  opportunities  that  go  with  at  least  a 
minimum  standard  of  living. 

RESOURCES   BOARD   STT7DIES   MIGRATION 

As  you  may  know,  the  Board  now  has  under  way  a  further  major  study 
requested  by  the  President  which  deals  with  another  of  the  principal  problems 
now  before  you.  I  refer  to  the  unsettled  migrants  who  need  public  aid  or  relief 
but  who  have  no  settled  residence.  I  regret  very  much  that  I  am  unable  to  give 
you  this  afternoon  the  results  of  the  findings  of  our  advisory  committee  on 
long-range  work  and  relief  policies.  Their  study  is  not  yet  complete,  and  a 
statement  of  findings  at  this  time,  therefore,  would  be  premature.  The  technical 
committee  in  charge  of  this  study  is  composed  of  William  Haber,  chairman, 
executive  director  of  the  National  Refuges  Services,  New  York  City;  Fred  K. 
Hoehler,  director  of  the  American  Public  Welfare  Association,  Chicago;  C.  M. 
Bookman,  of  the  Cincinnati  Community  Chest ;  Dr.  Will  W.  Alexander,  Farm 
Security  Administrator ;  Corrington  Gill,  Work  Projects  Administration ;  Miss 
Mary  E.  Switzer,  assistant  to  the  Federal  Security  Administrator ;  and  Dr. 
Katharine  F.  Lenroot,  Chief  of  the  Children's  Bureau,  Department  of  Labor. 

You  will  note  that  this  committee,  like  all  our  technical  advisory  groups,  is 
composed  of  specialists  from  both  inside  and  outside  the  Government.  It  acts 
as  a  clearing  house  of  facts  and  opinion.  A  large  part  of  the  work  of  the 
committee  is  being  done  in  the  Federal  agencies  concerned,  through  coopera- 
tive agreements  and  understandings.  The  Board  relies  heavily,  in  all  its 
work,  on  this  kind  of  cooperative  assistance. 

This  relief  committee,  as  we  call  it,  has  mapped  out  a  study  with  major  head- 
ings as  follows: 

Chapter  I.  Why  a  Relief  Study? 

Chapter  II.  The  Problem  We  Faced,  1930-40. 

Chapter  III.  The  Evolution  of  Policy  and  Programs,  1930-40. 

Chapter  ITI-A.  The  Programs  Operating  in  1940. 

Chapter  IV.  The  Relief  Population. 

Chapter  V.  The  Operation  of  Contemporary  Programs  from  the  Point  of  View 
of  the  Economically  Insecure  Population  (it  is  now  contemplated  that  Chapter 
V  will  have  to  be  presented  as  two  chapters). 

Chapter  VI.  The  Administration  of  Contemporary  Programs. 

Chapter  VII.  The  Financing  of  Relief. 

Chapter  VIII.  The  Economic  Repercussions  of  Contemporary  Relief  Policies. 

Chapter  IX.  Accomplishments  and  Shortcomings  of  Contemporary  Programs. 

Chapter  X.  Summary  of  Findings  and  Recommendations. 

It  is  hoped  that  the  report  on  this  study  may  be  available  for  the  President 
early  in  the  new  year. 

You  may  be  interested  to  know  how  these  planning  studies  are  set  up.  You 
are  doubtless  aware  that  the  National  Resources  Planning  Board  is  a  part 
of  the  Executive  Office  of  the  President  and  that  it  consists  of  three  members 


3726 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


named  by  the  President.  Its  regular  continuing  activities  are  prescribed  by 
the  Employment  Stabilization  Act  of  1931  and  its  duties  are  set  forth  m  an 
Executive  Order  along  with  those  of  the  other  administrative  arms  of  the 
President's  office— the  Bureau  of  the  Budget,  the  White  House  staff,  the  Office 
of  Government  Reports,  etc.  .      .  ..^     .    ., 

The  Board  is  the  successor  of  a  series  of  organizations  with  similar  nanaes 
and  of  the  employment  stabilization  office  which  was  set  up  In  1931.  Its  prin- 
cipal duties  are  to  make  studies  or  plans  for  various  problems  referred  to  it 
by  the  President,  prepare  the  Federal  6-year  program  of  public  works,  and  to 
cooperate  with  planning  agencies  and  Federal  bureaus  and  departments,  re- 
gional planning  bodies,  and  State  planning  boards.  The  Board  and  its  prede- 
cessors have  operated  during  the  last  several  years  with  a  very  small  nucleus 
staff  under  a  director  and  three  assistant  directors,  through  ten  field  offices, 
and  a  series  of  special  technical  committees.  It  tries  to  bring  together  groups 
of  technicians  and  specialists  from  both  inside  and  outside  the  Government  to 
prepare  carefully  documented  reports  on  major  issues  confronting  the  Nation. 
It  has  relied  heavily  on  part-time  consultants,  and  from  the  beginning  has 
avoided  the  organization  of  any  large  continuing  staff  in  Washington. 

Since  the  Board  has  a  continuing  responsibility  in  the  field  which  your 
committee  has  been  exploring,  we  will  continue  to  follow  your  activities  and 
findings  with  the  greatest  interest. 

TESTIMONY  OF  CHARLES  WILLIAM  ELIOT— Resumed 

Mr.  Parsons.  Will  you  explain  to  us  what  your  duties  as  director 
of  the  Board  and  something  of  its  personnel  and  what  studies  you 
have  made  or  are  attempting  to  make  with  reference  to  the  migrant 
problem  ?  , 

Mr.  EuoT.  Mr.  Parsons,  our  Board  is  part  of  the  Executive  Office 
of  the  President.  It  consists  of  three  members  appointed  by  the 
President  and  confirmed  by  the  Senate. 

They  have  a  staff  with  a  director  and  three  assistant  directors  and 
a  small  nucleus  organization  here  in  Washington  and  in  10  offices  scat- 
tered over  the  country. 

It  has  been  the  policy  of  the  Board  to  rely  upon  technical  com- 
mittees with  representatives  of  the  different  Federal  agencies  con- 
cerned in  any  particular  project  and  specialists  from  private  life 
who  are  called  in  on  a  consulting  or  part-time  basis  to  advise  in 
the  preparation  of  reports. 

The  work  of  the  Board  is  outlined  in  two  basic  documents,  the 
Stabilization  Act  of  1931  and  an  Executive  order  of  the  President 
in  which  he  sets  up  the  duties  of  his  Executive  Office. 

Under  those  two  orders  or  statements  of  purpose  the  Board  con- 
ducts special  studies  and  investigations  of  problems  from  time  to 
time  as  they  are  referred  to  the  Board  by  the  President. 

These  studies  are  all  related  to  the  resources  of  the  Nation  in 
terms  of  both  national  resources  and  human  resources. 

We  have  noted  in  the  work  of  your  committee  that  you  have  gone 
beyond  the  obvious  phases  of  migrants  to  the  causes  of  migration. 
Our  Board  is  similarly  concerned  with  the  causes  and  the  backlog 
or  the  background  that  has  brought  about  this  phenomenon  of  a 
large  migrant  population. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Your  Board  has  also  been  interested  in  a  long- 
range  planning  program  for  the  conservation  of  our  national  re- 
sources and  for  an  orderly  development  of  our  latent  powers  such 
as  water  and  natural  underground  resources,  and  in  the  long-range 
planning,  of  course,  you  have  come  across  this  very  serious  migrant 
problem. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3727 

Now,  the  committee  knows  something  of  your  work  and  the  work 
of  this  Board  and  your  duties  and  the  work  you  have  done.  It  is 
very  interesting  and  I  wish  we  had  time  to  have  a  discussion  upon 
that  in  detail,  but  since  this  committee  is  only  investigating  the 
migrant  problem  I  would  like  to  have  you  present  to  the  committee 
your  observations  and  the  observations  of  the  Board  with  reference 
to  the  migrant  problem,  together  with  any  recommendations  that  you 
care  to  make,  or  if  any  further  study  is  being  made  about  when 
we  might  expect  that  to  be  completed  and  what  recommendations 
might  be  included. 

Mr.  Eliot.  The  past  actions  of  the  Board  I  can  release  to  you,  but 
not  their  current  recommendations,  since  they  are  a  part-time  agency 
and  they  are  not  here  in  town  and  I  haven't  been  able  to  consult 
them  since  I  was  asked  to  come  up  here. 

In  the  past  the  Board  has  made  two  or  more  special  investigations 
which  are  direct  in  line  with  the  work  of  this  committee,  who  are 
perhaps  familiar  with  the  report  on  technological  trends  or  the  rise 
and  types  of  various  employment,  due  to  technological  progi-ess. 

I  have  here  a  copy  of  the  report  which  I  would  be  delighted  to 
give  to  the  committee  and  also  a  digest  which  puts  it  down  in  more 
understandable  and  briefer  fonn;  another  large  report  which  we 
got  out  2  years  ago  deals  with  problems  of  changing  population  and 
has  a  number  of  sections  in  it  on  economic  opportunities  in  relation 
to  population  problems,  and  that  deals  particularly  with  the  large 
migration  out  of  rural  areas,  particularly  the  south  Appalachian 
highlands  to  the  industrial  center  areas.  It  has  been  going  on  and 
is  likely  to  increase  in  the  years  to  come. 

REPORT  ON  NORTHERN  GREAT  PLAINS 

A  third  report  in  which  you  may  be  interested  deals  with  the 
future  of  the  northern  Great  Plains.  We  were  concerned  as  to  what 
caused  these  migrants  to  move  out  of  the  Great  Plains  and  what 
possibilities  there  might  be  of  establishing  a  more  stable  economy 
in  the  area  to  make  it  unnecessary  for  some  of  the  people  to  move, 
or  to  give  those  that  remained  a  more  permanent  and  satisfactory 
mode  of  life. 

Through  a  special  allotment  of  Public  Works  funds  we  have  been 
making  a  special  study  of  what  happened  to  the  migrant  when  he 
got  into  the  Pacific  Northwest  and  what  opportunities  there  might 
be  for  him  in  the  way  of  permanent  settlement  and  permanent 
habitation. 

That  kind  of  work  has  also  been  carried  on  in  the  northei'n  Lake 
States  area,  in.  the  cut-over  region,  as  it  is  called,  where  there  is  a 
serious  problem  of  insufficient  resources  and  hence  migration  has 
come  up,  which  is  the  coming  and  going  type  of  migration  rather 
than  an  all-out  migration  such  as  characterized  parts  of  the  Gi'eat 
Plains. 

Those  reports  indicate  the  type  of  work  which  we  have  been  doing 
there.  We  are  now  engaged  on  a  large-scale  study  requested  by  the 
President  on  long-range  work  and  relief  policies.     I  have  here  the 


gy28  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

chapter  headings  for  that  study.  I  am  sorry  I  could  not  bring  you 
the  study.  It  is  still  in  preparation,  and  it  would  be  premature  to 
hand  it  over  to  the  committee  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Will  that  be  ready  around  the  first  of  the  year  or  will 
it  be  sometime  in  1941  before  it  is  published  ? 

Mr.  Eliot.  We  are  trying  to  get  it  to  the  President  in  the  next  cal- 
endar year — early  in  1941 — with  the  hope  it  may  be  useful  to  Congress 
during  the  coming  session. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  would  be  soon  enough  for  this  committee  and 
for  the  Congress  to  consider  whatever  recommendations  you  have  in 
this  study,  and  to  guide  the  Congress  in  any  legislation  that  it  may 
see  fit  to  pass. 

Mr.  Eliot.  We  hope  it  will  help. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Now,  what  did  you  find  to  be  the  causes  of  these  three 
great  areas — the  migration  in  them  that  you  have  just  described? 

Mr.  Eliot.  Well,  these  reports  that  I  have  referred  to  on  the  Great 
Plains  and  the  northern  Lake  States  and  in  the  Pacific  Northwest  deal 
with  different  aspects  of  the  situation  for  those  particular  areas. 

would  stabilize  plains  economy 

In  the  northwest  plains  I  don't  need  to  tell  the  Congressman  from 
Nebraska  what  the  problem  is.  You  have  been  out  there  yourself. 
We  were  trying  to  suggest  some  way  of  stabilizing  the  economy 
through  the  provision  of  water  and  the  encouraging  of  a  cattle  economy 
as  contrasted  to  exclusive  reliance  upon  wheat  or  any  other  single  crop. 
The  report  suggests  a  number  of  specific  projects  under  the  Water 
Facilities  Act  and  the  Wheeler-Case  Act  w^hich  might  be  undertaken 
to  improve  the  balance  in  the  economy  and  to  provide  a  more  stable 
living  for  those  who  remain. 

In  the  case  of  the  northern  Lake  States  cut-over  area,  quite  a  dif- 
ferent policy  was  suggested  under  the  development  of  recreational 
facilities  and  of  the  restoration  of  the  forest  cover  and  of  larger  hold- 
ings of  farm  property  so  as  to  make  it  possible  for  a  farm  family  to 
get  a  better  living  off  of  a  single  farm  than  is  now  possible  in  the  very 
small  areas  which  most  of  them  own.  The  approach  there  must  be  a 
different  approach.  It  requires  a  different  kind  of  solution  for  that 
]iroblem. 

Mr.  Parsons.  In  your  studies,  including  all  of  the  States  of  the 
Union,  have  you  found  any  large  area  of  agricultural  lands  that  could 
be  made  productive  for  the  resettlement  for  any  large  number  of  these 
j)eople  who  are  used  to  the  soil  and  would  prefer  to  live  on  the  soil  and 
cultivate  it,  where  we  might  resettle  a  large  number  of  them? 

Mr.  Eliot.  In  the  investigation  which  the  predecessor  Board  made 
in  1934,  a  number  of  areas  were  indicated  as  being  possible  for  future 
agricultural  development.  But  since  1934  tlie  nature  of  the  agricul- 
tural activities  and  the  technological  developments  I  suspect  would 
have  invalidated  many  of  those  suggestions.  I  would  hesitate  to 
make  any  categorical  answer  to  that  question,  not  having  had  any 
more  recent  material  to  work  from  than  1934. 

Mr.  Parsons.  We  have  had  some  witnesses  from  Wisconsin  and 
Michigan,  and  one  in  particular,  that  purported  to  know  of  two  or 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3729 

three  counties  in  those  States  of  cut-over  lands  that  would  be  suitable 
tor  agricultural  purposes.  This  one  witness  started  off  by  saying 
that  they  were  advertising  and  inviting  people  to  come  there.  They 
claimed  the  character  of  the  soil  was  sufficient  for  a  long-range  pro- 
ductivity, and  that  was  one  of  their  answers  to  the  problem--they  could 
take  care  of  several  thousands  of  these  migrant  families  in  that  area. 
That  is  what  prompted  my  question  to  you  whether  this  Board  had 
liad  an  opportunity  to  study  the  more  or  less  uninhabited  areas  with  a 
view  of  the  resettlement  of  a  large  number  of  these  people. 

Mr.  Eliot.  We  relied  in  all  of  our  studies  on  the  work  of  the  various 
Federal  agencies  directly  concerned  with  the  problem.  The  Board 
doesn't  do  any  original  research  for  itself  except  in  a  very  limited 
I  xtent.  It  relies  upon  the  Department  of  Agriculture  or  the  Depart- 
ment of  Interior,  or  whatever  the  appropriate  agency  is,  and  brings 
together  the  opinions  and  the  possibilities  from  those  sources. 

Our  job  is  a  correlating  activity — a  clearing-house  activity  rather 
than  an  original  research  activity. 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  you  do  agree  that  this  migrant  problem  is  a 
national  problem? 

MIGRATION  IS  NATIONAL  PROBLEM 

Mr.  Eliot.  It  certainly  is,  and  one  in  which  the  Board  is  very  keenly 
interested  and  anxious  to  help  your  committee  on. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Will  you  agree  that  the  Federal  Government  should 
give  grants  and  aid  to  the  States  in  assisting  in  not  only  the  destitute 
migrants  but  in  a  general  program  of  relief  ? 

Mr.  Eliot.  I  am  not  qualified  to  give  an  answer  to  that.  The  study 
is  in  process  at  the  moment,  and  I  certainly  am  not  in  a  position  to 
anticipate  the  findings  of  the  committee. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Well,  I  think  the  committee  will  be  vitally  interested 
in  the  study  that  is  being  made  now  and  being  compiled,  and  I  hoi)e 
that  the  Board  will  make  available  to  the  members  of  the  conmiittee 
that  report  when  it  is  published  so  that  the  committee  may  have  the 
benefit  of  it. 

I  think  that  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Eliot,  in  going  about  the  country  I  have  traveled 
over  10,000  miles  a  year,  and  I  have  followed  this  problem  but,  when 
the  newspaper  boys  interview  us,  about  the  second  question  will  be, 
'•What  is  the  solution?" 

When  the  stoiy  unfolds  itself  to  me  this  migration  of  destitute 
citizens  between  States  brings  me  to  the  conclusion  that  the  causes 
are  coimected  with  every  economic  dislocation  in  this  country.  There 
are  many  reasons  for  it — worn-out  soil  and  mechanization,  unemploy- 
ment, and  various  other  causes.  So  there  cannot  be  any  single  solution, 
but  certainly  we  can  do  a  little  better  than  we  are  doing  today  when 
we  consider'4,000,000  people  last  year  Avere  going  from  State  to  State 
in  their  search  for  employment.   We  can  do  better  than  that.    Probably 


oyoQ  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

the  first  attack  should  be  on  these  private  employment  agencies  who 
take  the  last  dollar  of  these  migrants  and  shoot  them  across  State  Imes 
with  misinformation  as  to  employment. 

We  can  do  something  about  that.  These  millions  of  people  who  are 
mio-rating  about  the  country  are  90  percent  American  citizens,  and  to 
keep  kicking  them  from  State  to  State  strikes  at  the  morale  of  this 
country.  But  what  I  am  trying  to  get  at  is  this :  In  doing  it  there 
must  be  two  approaches  and  you  must  agree  with  me  on  that.  There 
will  be  the  short-term  approach.  That  is  what  we  are  going  to  do 
immediately  for  them. 

For  instance,  the  900,000  w^ho  were  let  out  of  W.  P.  A.  There  also 
will  come  a  time  when  the  farm  is  worn  out  and  where  the  cows  go  and 
the  chickens  will  go  and  they  will  not  starve  standing  still,  so  they 
move. 

Now%  it  does  seem  to  me  that  the  Federal  Government  can  do  better 
than  we  are  doing.  We  at  least  can  give  them  authentic  information 
of  inventories  where  there  are  jobs  and  where  they  can  locate  thern- 
selves.  We  certainly  can  approach  those  two  things  almost  unani- 
mously, can't  w^e  ? 

Mr.  Eliot.  I  should  hope  so. 

Tlie  Chairman.  Now,  then,  your  long-term,  of  course,  will  be  what 
we  can  do  to  keep  them  home.  The  Farm  Credit  Administration  is 
tackling  that  now.  They  are  taking  care  of  500,000  by  making  loans 
to  them,  but  there  is  still  a  million  more  waiting.  You  have  your 
resettlement  and  as  you  mentioned  irrigation  and  things  of  that  kind, 
but  from  all  the  testimony  we  have  heard  nearly  every  witness  agreed 
to  the  proposition  that  this  problem  of  migration  between  States  is 
going  to  grow  and  not  decrease. 

Just  think  of  a  million  people  from  the  Great  Plains  States,  who 
have  left  their  homes  in  the  last  10  years.  They  have  left  what  was 
once  productive  soil  and  fine  farms.  On  5,000,000  acres,  25  percent  of 
the  top  soil  is  gone. 

So,  I  am  very  glad  that  you  said  that  you  considered  it  a  national 
problem  and  that  no  State  alone  can  handle  the  situation.  That  is 
positive,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Eliot.  Absolutely,  sir.  It  is  a  national  problem  of  major  im- 
portance in  the  wise  use  of  our  human  resources.  If  we  don't  take  care 
of  that,  what  is  it  all  for  anyway  ? 

The  Chairman.  We  have  neglected  this  problem  to  such  an  extent 
that  the  various  States  are  erecting  barriers  in  self-defense  against  this 
migration.  The  witness  who  just  preceded  you  named  23  States  where 
these  men  left  to  come  to  the  District  of  Columbia  to  work  in  the 
navy  yard.  We  must  give  attention  to  this  problem  because  these  men 
are  good  American  citizens — 90  percent  of  them — and  it  seems  to  me 
that  we  can  do  much  better  than  we  are  doing. 

For  150  years  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  has  taken  care 
of  commodities  passing  between  the  States  but  nothing  has  been  done 
for  the  human  being  in  interstate  commerce. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  373]^ 

STATE  DEPORTS  CITIZENS  OF  UNITED  STATES 

We  started  our  hearings  in  New  York  to  get  away  from  the  idea  that 
it  was  solely  a  California  problem  alone.  That  is  all  we  heard  when  we 
tried  to  get  this  through  Congress.  We  were  told  it  was  a  California 
problem.  Mayor  LaGuardia  testified  that  New  York  had  deported 
5,000  out  of  the  State  last  year  and  spent  $3,000,000  in  taking  care  of 
them.  We  are  hopeful  of  devising  some  legislation  that  will  clarify 
the  situation  and  give  our  American  citizens  passing  from  one  State 
to  another  a  little  different  status  than  they  have  now. 

If  we  can  do  that  I  think  we  have  accomplished  somethins:,  don't  vou, 
Mr.  Eliot? 

Mr.  Eliot.  We  have  a  very  interesting  problem  as  to  where  these 
men  belong  and  are  they  citizens  of  any  State  or  of  the  United  States. 

The  Chairman.  Your  census  reports  were  held  up  for  weeks  on  that 
account.  There  were  hundreds  of  American  citizens  who  lost  their 
residence  in  one  State  and  did  not  gain  it  in  another  and  they  don't 
know  where  to  locate  them ;  and  under  conscription  they  didn't  know 
what  State  they  were  from. 

Mr.  Eliot.  I  want  to  assure  you,  sir;  the  Board  is  very  keenly  inter- 
ested in  what  your  committee  has  been  doing  and  is  very  anxious  to 
help  you.    I  am  here  only  to  express  that  good  will  and  desire  to  help. 

The  Chairman.  And  we  certainly  appreciate  your  being  here. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Mr.  Eliot,  for  the  purpose  of  the  record,  what  States 
do  you  include  in  the  term  "northern  Great  Plains"  ? 

Mr.  Eliot.  The  committee  was  composed  of  people  from  the  two 
Dakotas,  Montana,  Wyoming,  and  Nebraska.  That  was  the  northern 
Great  Plains  area. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  think  the  Kesources  Planning  Board  is  making  a 
very  distinct  contribution  to  this  problem.  I  was  pleased  at  the 
two  points  you  mentioned  with  reference  to  the  northern  Great 
Plains  with  reference  to  the  general  type  of  agriculture  and  more 
attention  upon  livestock,  and  the  other  one  the  conservation  of  our 
soil  and  water  resources.  In  some  of  my  counties  in  this  northern 
Great  Plains  area,  this  drought  area,  one  family  out  of  four  have 
moved  away  since  1930.  If  this  committee  brings  in  a  recommenda- 
tion that  pertains  to  the  relief — only  the  fair  and  just  and  appro- 
priate relief  for  these  migrants  who  are  elsewhere  in  the  world,  they 
haven't  affected  the  three  families  who  stayed  at  home,  have  they, 
and  when  one  of  those  three  families  finally  have  to  give  up  and  join 
that  army  of  moving  people  our  problem  is  doubled  and  still  no 
permanent  solution.  Therefore  I  feel  that  the  work  that  your  Plan- 
ning Board  is  doing  is  making  a  most  distinct  contribution  to  this 
because  it  makes  a  permanent  solution  of  the  problem  at  the  point 
of  its  origin, 

Mr.  Eliot.  You  want  to  attack  it  at  both  ends,  Mr.  Curtis. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Eliot.  Both  as  to  the  stable  way  of  life  where  they  now  are 
and  also  to  take  care  of  them  when  they  do  move,  if  they  have  to. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Yes. 


260370— 41— pt. 


3732 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


The  Chairman.  Mr.  Eliot,  migration  made  this  country  originally 
but,  of  course,  we  haven't  any  more  frontiers  and  we  haven't  as 
many  jobs.  We  are  up  against  a  different  proposition.  But  you 
feel  that  after  the  studies  you  have  made  of  this  problem,  that  it  is 
bound  to  exist  in  this  country  as  long  as  we  exist  as  a  Nation,  do 
you  not  ? 

Mr.  Eliot.  Do  you  mean  migration? 

The  Chairman.  Yes;  from  State  to  State. 

Mr.  Eliot.  I  think  that  is  one  of  the  aspects  of  the  genius  of  the 
American  people,  that  they  regard  the  whole  Nation  as  home— not 
any  particular  one  part  of  it. 

The  Chairman.  And  the  Constitution  says  so;  you  are  not  only 
a  resident  of  the  State  of  New  York— I  mean  a  citizen,  but  you  are 
a  citizen  of  the  other  48  States  under  the  Constitution.  But  it  does 
not  work  out  very  practically  on  account  of  the  barriers  raised  by 
some  of  the  States. 

We  thank  you  very  much  for  your  valuable  contribution. 

The  committee  will  stand  adjourned  until  10  o'clock  tomorrow 
morning. 

(Whereupon  at  4  p.  m.,  the  hearing  was  adjourned  until  10  a  m.. 
Tuesday,  December  10,  1940.) 


INTERSTATE  MIGEATION 


TUESDAY,   DECEMBER    10,    1940 

House  of  Kepresentatives. 
Select  Committee  to  Investigate  the 
Interstate  ^Migration  of  Destitute  Citizens, 

Washington^  D.  C. 
The  committee  met  at  10  a.  m.,  Hon.  John  H.  Tohm  (chairman) 
presiding. 

Present:  Representatives  John  H.  Tohm,  chairman;  Claude  V. 
Parsons;  John  J.  Sparkman;  Carl  T.  Curtis;  and  Frank  C.  Osmers, 
Jr. 

Also  present :  Dr.  Robert  K.  Lamb,  chief  investigator ;  Henry  H. 
Collins,  Jr.,  coordinator  of  field  hearings;  Creekmore  Fath  and  John 
W.  Abbott,  field  investigators;  Ariel  E.  V.  Dunn  and  Alice  M.  Tuoliy, 
assistant  field  investigators;  Irene  M.  Hageman,  hearings  secretary; 
Richard  S.  Blaisdell,  editor ;  Harold  D.  Cullen,  associate  editor. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  please  come  to  order.  This 
is  a  continuation  of  the  congressional  hearings  investigating  the 
migration  of  destitute  citizens  between  States. 

Mrs.  Franklin  D.  Roosevelt,  will  be  a  witness  this  morning.  Mrs, 
Alberta  Thomas  will  be  the  first  witness. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MRS.  ALBERTA  THOMAS 

The  Chairman.  This  is  a  little  strange  surrounding  for  you  this 
morning,  but  you  have  traveled  all  over  the  country  and  you  should 
be  able  to  get  along  with  us,  so  you  feel  right  at  home. 

Your  full  name  is  what  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Alberta  Thomas. 

The  Chairman.  And  is  your  family  with  you  'I 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Five  children  are  with  me. 

The  Chairman.  How  many  children  have  you  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  I  have  six. 

The  Chairman.  Are  the  six  hereiiow  or  just  five  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No;  just  five. 

The  Chairman.  How  old  are  they? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  20, 18,  12,  10,  and  3'. 

The  Chairman.  And  how  old  is  the  youngest  ? 

ISIrs.  Thomas.  Three  years  old. 

The  Chairman.  Is  your  husband  here  today  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No. 

3733 


oy34  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

The  Chairman.  Where  is  he? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  He  is  working. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  he  doing? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Electrician's  work. 

The  Chairman.  How  long  has  he  had  that  job  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Since  last  Monday. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  his  job? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Installing  oil  burners  for  a  coal  company. 

The  Chairman.  Where  do  you  live  now  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  At  Alexandria  Tourist  Camp. 

The  Chairman.  Are  you  living  in  a  house  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No  ;  in  a  trailer. 

The  Chairman.  The  eight  of  you  are  living  in  a  trailer  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  What  part  of  the  country  do  you  call  your  home  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Originally  St.  Louis,  Mo. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  live  there  until  1934  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  When  did  you  leave  Missouri  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  In  October  1934. 

The  Chairman.  Were  you  and  your  family  ever  on  relief  in  St. 
Louis  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  For  how  long  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  The  best  I  can  remember  it  was  7  months. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  did  you  get  a  month  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  It  was  $11  a  week  for  groceries. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  get  along  on  that  amount  of  money  all 
right  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  why  did  you  leave  St.  Louis,  Mo.? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Because  my  family  all  were  under  doctor's  care — 
all  sick. 

family  leaves  MISSOURI  IN  $  2  5  CAR 

The  Chairman.  And  how  did  you  leave  Missouri  ? 
Mrs.  Thomas.  Sold  my  furniture  and  bought  a  car. 
The  Chairman.  What  did  you  get  for  the  furniture  ? 
Mrs.  Thomas.  Got  $30  for  the  furniture. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  cash  did  you  have  when  the  family 
left? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  I  think  I  had  65  cents. 

The  Chairman.  You  had  65  cents  when  you  started  on  the  road? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir;  after  we  bought  5  gallons  of  gasoline. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  did  the  car  cost? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  $25. 

The  Chairman.  And  where  did  you  go  from  St.  Louis  in  1934? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  We  went  as  far  as  Phoenix,  Ariz. 

The  Chairman.  And  where  did  you  sleep  at  night,  Mrs.  Thomas? 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3735 

Mrs.  Thomas.  We  slept  in  cabins  when  we  could  afford  them  and 
when  w^e  couldn't  get  a  cabin  we  slept  on  army  cots  with  a  tarpaulin 
for  a  cover  and  the  children  slept  in  the  car. 

The  Chairman.  You  and  your  husband  slept  on  the  army  cots  and 
the  children  slept  in  the  car? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  That  65  cents  did  not  last  very  long,  did  it  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No,  sir. 

TWO   BOYS    support   FAMILY  AS    MUSICIANS 

The  Chairman.  Before  you  left  Missouri  did  you  discover  some- 
thing about  your  two  boys  being  able  to  earn  a  little  money  playing 
musical  instruments? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir ;  and  when  we  got  in  Del  Kio,  Tex. 

The  Chairman.  Tell  us  about  that,  Mrs.  Thomas. 

Mrs.  Thomas.  My  husband  earned  our  way  until  we  got  to  Del 
Rio  by  selling  corn  medicine  and  after  we  arrived  at  Del  Rio  we 
parked  on  a  street  in  front  of  a  church  and  I  had  the  children 
practicing  their  music  as  usual,  which  they  did  every  day.  They 
were  playing  church  pieces,  sacred  pieces,  and  the  lady  in  a  shoeshop 
came  out  and  invited  them  in  her  shop  to  play  for  her  husband. 
When  her  husband  heard  them  she  asked  me  if  I  would  let  them  go 
to  a  friend  of  hers  that  owned  a  cafe.  I  told  her  if  she  would  wait 
until  my  husband  came  back  to  the  car  I  would  ask  him,  which  she 
did.  She  met  me  about  the  same  time  my  husband  did  and  asked 
him  for  permission  for  the  children  to  go  and  he  finally  decided  they 
should  go  up  and  play. 

She  said  if  they  didn't  pick  up  any  money  she  would  pay  them 
for  the  trouble  of  going  up  there. 

When  they  went  to  this  cafe  they  collected  90  cents.  That  en- 
couraged the  children  and  the  lady  persuaded  us  to  let  them  go  around 
and  see  if  they  couldn't  pick  up  some  more  money.  They  collected 
around  $6  that  night,  enough  to  carry  us  across  the  desert  and 
mountains,  and  we  went  on  to  Bisbee,  Ariz. 

The  Chairman.  Now,  in  your  travels  how  many  States  did  you 
go  into  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  I  have  been  in  42. 

The  Chairman.  And  you  subsequently  acquired  a  trailer,  didn't 
you  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes;  my  husband  built  a  trailer  after  we  was  on 
the  road. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  during  all  the  time  of  your  traveling  for  a 
period  of  about  6  years  through  the  48  States,  what  did  you  live  on  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Lived  on  the  income  of  what  my  two  sons  made. 

The  Chairman.  Wliat  musical  instruments  do  they  play? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Violin  and  guitar. 

The  Chairman.  How  old  are  the  two  boys  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  18  and  20. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  where  would  they  play  to  earn  this  money  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  They  would  go  into  cafes  at  first  when  they  were 
smaller,  and  barber  shops  and  garages  or  any  place  where  they  would 


oyog  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

think  anybody  would  be  interested  in  music,  and  ask  them  for  per- 
mission to  play.    When  they  got  permission  to  play  they  played. 

The  Chairman.  For  practically  6  years  your  family  of  eight  lived 
on  the  earnings  of  your  two  boys  playing  the  violin  and  the  guitar? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Did  your  husband  look  for  work? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  he  was  unable  to  obtain  any  work? 

iNIrs.  Thomas.  Yes.  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  what  work  does  he  do  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  He  is  an  electrician — can  do  most  anything. 

attempt  TO  FARM  FAILS 

The  Chairman.  And  during  your  travels,  Mrs.  Thomas,  did  you 
ever  attempt  to  settle  down  on  a  farm  or  something  of  that  kind  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Where  was  that  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  In  Higdon,  Mo.  We  bought  a  tract  of  land— 40 
acres— and  we  built  a  cabin  on  it  and  made  a  cistern,  but  we  just 
couldn't  make  a  go  of  it. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  did  you  pay  for  the  land? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  It  was  $200. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  did  you  pay  down  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Paid  $15  down. 

The  Chairman.  What  kind  of  land  was  it? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Rolling  land. 

The  Chairman.  Did  it  have  cut-over  timber  on  it?  Did  you  have 
to  clear  it  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  But  you  could  not  make  a  go  of  it  and  so  you 
left,  is  that  right? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes ;  we  had  to  get  up  and  leave. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  I  wish  you  would  tell  the  committee,  Mrs. 
Thomas,  where  you  went  after  leaving  Arizona.  You  first  went  from 
Missouri  to  Arizona? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  then  where  did  you  go? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  We  came  back  from  Arizona  through  Missouri  again 
and  up  to  Pennsylvania.  Then  from  Pennsylvania  back  to  St.  Louis. 
Then  out  west  toward  Cheyenne,  Wyo.  And  then  we  went  right  down 
the  west  coast  to  Arizona  again  and  then  we  came  back  from  Arizona 
back  to  Missouri.  Then  we  went  back  south  to  Texas  again  and  over 
into  Florida. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  meet  many  people  on  the  road  like  your- 
selves^— traveling  to  look  for  work? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes ;  quite  a  few. 

The  Chair:man.  And  how  were  they  traveling — in  automobiles? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  become  acquainted  with  them? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  We  didn't  have  very  much  time  to  associate  with 
many  people.    We  were  going  too  fast  ourselves. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3737 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  a  car  now? 
Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 
The  Chairman.  What  kmd  of  a  car  is  it? 
Mrs.  Thomas.  Ford  V-8. 
The  Chairman.  What  model? 
Mrs.  Thomas.  1938. 

The  Chairman.  And  what  was  the  model  of  the  first  car  that  you 
started  out  with? 
Mrs.  Thomas.  It  was  a  1927  Buick. 

children  educated  by  mother  at  home 

The  Chairman.  About  what  schooling  have  your  children  had? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  I  taught  them  as  long  as  they  were  unable  to  go  to 
school.  They  were  too  delicate  to  go  to  school  in  St.  Louis.  They 
asked  me  to  take  Selby  and  Johnnie  out  of  school  on  account  of  sick- 
ness. I  had  to  board  them  out  in  the  country  and  I  didn't  have  the 
money  to  send  them  to  the  country. 

The  Chairman.  And  are  they  going  to  school  now? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  In  other  words,  you  were  the  teacher  for  them,  were 
you? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  how^  much  education  did  you  have? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Seventh  grade. 

The  Chairman.  Are  the  children  all  healthy  now? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chair^^ian.  What  was  the  matter  with  them  at  the  time  you 
left  Missouri  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Selby  had  sinus  trouble  and  a  mastoid  operation. 
Janet  had  heart  trouble. 

The  Chairman.  And  that  has  cleared  up  now,  has  it  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  In  other  words,  they  are  at  the  present  time  in 
good  health? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  In  perfect  health  now. 

The  Chairman.  How  long  have  you  been  in  Washington,  Mrs. 
Thomas? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Since  June  2. 

The  Chairman.  And  your  husband  obtained  work  here  in  Wash- 
ington last  Monday  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir ;  with  a  coal  company. 

The  Chairman.  But  he  is  an  electrician  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  But  you  left  St.  Louis,  Mo.,  in  1934  and  you 
traveled  for  a  period  of  6  years  through  42  States  ? 

ISIrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  your  husband  was  unable  to  obtain  em- 
ployment ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  the  family  of  eight  lived  on  what  your  two 
boys  earned  playing  the  violin  and  the  guitar? 


3738  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Now,  did  you  ever  ask  for  relief,  Mrs.  Thomas,  in 
any  of  these  States? 
Mrs.  Thomas.  No,  sir. 

The  Chaieman.  How  many  months  were  you  on  relief  in  Missouri  ? 
Mrs.  Thomas.  I  believe  it  was  about  7  months. 

family  sleeps  in  trailer 

The  Chairman.  Now,  during  the  6-year  period  that  you  were 
traveling  through  42  States,  where  would  the  family  sleep  at  night? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Well,  they  slept  in  the  trailer  or  car  or  whatever  we 
had,  or  in  a  tent.     We  had  a  tent  for  a  little  while. 

The  Chairman.  And  they  are  now  sleeping  at  nights  in  the  trailer 
in  Alexandria,  Va.  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir ;  and  in  the  car. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  that  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Trailer  and  car. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  money  is  your  husband  earning? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  $30  a  week. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  think  you  will  be  able  to  get  along  all 
right  on  that? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Well,  with  the  boys'  help  I  will. 

The  Chairman.  Are  you  sending  the  children  to  school  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  How  many  of  them  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  There  are  two  going  to  school  now. 

The  Chairman.  You  only  went  to  the  seventh  grade  in  school.  Do 
you  think  that  your  children,  with  what  you  taught  them  at  home, 
are  on  an  average  with  other  children  of  their  age  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Well,  I  could  not  say  that,  no,  because  I  did  not 
have  that  good  of  an  education  myself.  But  I  taught  them  to  the 
best  of  my  ability  what  I  knew. 

Tlie  Chairman.  When  you  bought  the  land  in  Missouri,  did  you 
live  in  a  house  there  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Lived  in  a  trailer  and  following  that  in  a  log  cabin. 
It  was  a  one-room  log  cabin.  Then  we  built  an  additional  room  to 
it  out  of  some  lumber. 

The  Chairman.  How  do  you  like  Washington? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Fine. 

The  Chairman.  I  take  it,  Mrs.  Thomas,  that  had  you  been  able  to 
make  a  go  of  it  in  Missouri  on  a  farm,  you  would  have  been  glad  to 
stay  at  home,  wouldn't  you  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes ;  I  would. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  think  you  will  make  Alexandria,  Va., 
your  home  now  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  I  would  like  to  make  Washington  my  home. 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  any  relatives  any  place? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Oh,  yes ;  in  Missouri. 

The  Chairman.  Were  they  ever  able  to  help  you? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No ;  they  wasn't  able. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3739 

The  Chairman.  But  for  the  6  years  after  1934  your  husband  was 
not  able  to  get  any  position  and  contribute  to  the  support  of  the 
family,  is  that  true? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  That  is  true. 

The  Chairman.  The  two  boys  playing  the  guitar  and  violin  were 
able  to  earn  enough  money  to -support  the  entire  family? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Congressman  Parsons. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Mrs.  Thomas,  how  long  have  the  children  been  in 
school  since  you  have  been  in  Alexandria  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  They  started  when  school  started  in  Alexandria. 

Mr.  Parsons.  In  September? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Have  they  had  any  tests  at  school  so  as  to  compare 
their  ability  with  other  children  of  the  same  age  in  their  school? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  They  have  their  report  cards. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Are  they  about  in  the  same  grade  as  children  of 
their  age  who  are  in  the  same  school  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Well,  I  believe  a  child  at  12  years  old,  the  teacher 
explained,  was  supposed  to  be  in  the  sixth  grade,  and  Janet  is  in 
the  fifth. 

Mr.  Parsons.  So  they  probably  are  retarded  from  one  to  two 
grades  because  of  your  migrations  into  various  parts  of  the  country  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Are  the  boys  still  keeping  up  their  musical  training? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  they  make  any  funds  for  the  family  now? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Where  do  they  work  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  They  entertain  in  night  clubs. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Here  in  Washington  or  in  Virginia? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  In  Washington  and  in  Maryland. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Sparkman. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mrs.  Thomas,  you  say  your  husband  is  an  elec- 
trician ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  old  is  he? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Thirty-seven. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  wonder  if  he  has  tried  to  get  work  with  any  of 
the  navy  yards  or  in  any  of  the  defense  projects? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Well,  I  believe  he  did  at  Fort  Meade. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Wliy  was  he  not  successful  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  He  was  offered  a  job  as  an  electrician  for  $1.65  an 
hour,  but  he  had  to  join  the  union.  He  went  to  see  about  the  union 
and  they  wanted  $300  to  join  the  union.  We  didn't  have  the  cash 
money. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  union  was  it  that  wanted  $300  from  him  to 
join  it? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Electricians'  union,  that  is  all  I  know  about  it 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Was  it  here  in  Washington  2 


3740 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Mrs.  Thomas.  I  believe  it  was ;  yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  don't  know  the  number  of  the  local  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No;  I  don't. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Did  they  want  all  of  that  in  cash  or  some  on  terms  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  They  wanted  it  in  cash.  He  told  them  he  would  pay 
them  so  much  a  week  if  he  could  get  the  job,  and  they  didn't  want  it 
that  way. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  much  did  he  offer  to  pay  them  a  week? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  I  think  it  was  $5  a  week.  He  offered  to  pay  whatever 
he  could  pay — just  any  way  to  get  the  job. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Now,  he  was  offered  a  job  at  $1.65  an  hour  provided 
he  was  a  member  of  the  union  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  But  the  local  wanted  $300  for  membership  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Cash;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  They  would  not  take  it  on  terms  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No,  sir ;  they  would  not  give  him  a  permit. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  he  was  not  able  to  pay  that  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  How  much  cash  did  he  have  available? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Well,  we  didn't  have  any  cash  right  then.  We  had 
just  had  a  wreck  with  our  car  and  a  payment  was  due  on  the  car. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  that  the  car  you  paid  $25  for? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  That  is  the  car  we  have  now.  We  have  had  it  only 
about  2  months. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is  the  only  thing  you  had  which  you  might 
raise  cash  on? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  We  don't  even  have  the  car  paid  for  yet. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  instead  of  getting  the  job  of  $1.65  an  hour  he 
is  earning  $30  a  week? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  believe  that  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  Congressman  Osmers. 

Mr.  Osmers.  Mrs.  Thomas,  is  it  your  preference  to  live  the  life  you 
are  now  leading  or  would  you  prefer  to  live  at  home  and  live  a  normal 
life  with  your  family? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Well,  I  would  rather  live  a  normal  life  with  my 
family. 

Mr.  Osmers.  Do  you  feel  that  if  your  husband  could  get  one  of 
these  national-defense  jobs  you  would  secure  a  home  and  live  that 
kind  of  a  life? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Well,  I  would  try  my  best  to. 

Mr.  Osmers.  That  is  all  I  have. 

The  Chairman.  Congressman  Curtis. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Just  one  thing,  Mrs.  Thomas.  Have  your  children 
even  been  denied  admission  to  a  school  when  you  would  go  into  a 
community  just  for  a  short  time? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Well,  we  had  to  pay  pretty  dear  to  p-pt  them  in 
school. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Had  to  pay  rather  high? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3741 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  was  that? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  In  Florida. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  did  they  charge  you? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  recall? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  I  think  it  was  $3  for  each  child,  and  then  we  had 
to  buy  the  books.     It  cost  us  $9.70  to  start  the  three  girls  in  school. 

Mr.  Curtis.  For  how  long  did  that  pay  their  tuition? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Well,  it  was  supposed  to  pay  for  the  term,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Curtis.  David  was  14  years  old  when  you  started  in  1934, 
was  he  not  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

jNlr.  Curtis.  Has  he  been  in  school  any  since  then  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  Selby  was  about  12? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Did  he  go  to  school  after  you  were  on  the  road? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No;  we  taught  him  and  David,  too.  They  had  their 
lessons  just  the  same. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Then  only  three  of  them  attended  any  public  school? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Wliat  time  of  the  year  did  you  move  into  this  Florida 
community  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  About  the  first  of  the  year. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  because  of  that  tuition  situation  you  did  not 
send  the  children? 

Mrs,  Thomas.  Yes,  sir ;  I  sent  the  children. 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  at  no  point  did  they  deny  admission  to  schools? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No;  they  let  them  go  to  school  if  they  had  the 
money.  They  asked  us  to  get  a  Florida  license  on  our  car,  which  we 
did. 

Mr.  Curtis.  That  was  one  of  the  requirements  when  you  asked 
for  the  children  to  go  to  school  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Wlien  we  took  the  children  to  Pipers  School,  they 
asked  us  if  we  had  a  Florida  tag  on  our  car  and,  of  course,  we  had 
bought  a  tag  there  the  year  before.  We  told  them  we  had  an  old  tag, 
but  we  intended  to  get  a  Florida  tag.  They  said,  "All  right,  it  won't 
cost  you  as  much."  But  we  had  to  put  out  the  $9.70  for  books  just 
the  same  and  the  $3  for  tuition. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  know  Avhether  that  was  the  regular  charge  or 
was  that  a  special  charge  because  you  were  not  a  resident  ? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  I  don't  know  that. 

Mr.  Curtis.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  One  more  question.  Mrs.  Thomas,  has  your  hus- 
band ever  filed  an  application  with  the  Civil  Service  Commission  for 
a  job  in  any  of  these  defense  projects? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  notice  they  are  asking  for  skilled  workers  con- 
tinuously. I  might  suggest  that  he  look  into  the  possibility  of  filing 
an  application  with  the  Civil  Service  Commission. 

That  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 


3742  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

The  Chairman.  Mrs.  Thomas,  the  two  sons  that  you  refer  to  in 
your  testimony  are  on  the  front  seat  here  in  the  hearing  room? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  what  is  the  name  of  the  little  girl? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  The  baby? 

The  Chairman.  Yes. 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Sonja. 

The  Chairman.  And  there  are  six  altogether? 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mrs.  Thomas. 

Mrs.  Thomas.  You  are  entirely  welcome. 

The  Chairman.  For  giving  us  your  testimony.  We  appreciate 
it  very  much. 

Mrs.  Thomas.  Thank  you. 

The  Chairiman.  Mrs.  Roosevelt  is  the  next  witness. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MRS.  FRANKLIN  D.  ROOSEVELT 


yoi 

Wi 


The  Chairman.  Mrs.  Roosevelt,  the  committee  is  very  grateful  to 
ou  for  appearing  here  this  morning.    We  appreciate  it  very  much. 

e  have  held  hearings  in  New  York,  Alabama,  Illinois,  Nebraska, 
Oklahoma,  and  California,  to  show  the  Nation  it  was  not  just  a  one- 
State  problem. 

We  started  off  in  New  York  with  Mayor  LaGuardia.  He  called 
our  attention  to  the  fact  that  last  year  in  New  York  they  had  sent 
back  to  their  home  States  5,000  people  at  an  expense  of  $3,000,000. 

Through  the  United  States  we  found  the  press  and  the  public  and 
the  people  very  courteous  to  us.  You  know  how  the  heart  of  the 
American  people  can  be  touched. 

We  will  start  off  by  introducing  the  members  of  the  committee. 
The  Congressman  on  my  extreme  right  is  Congressman  Sparkman, 
of  Alabama.  Next  to  him  is  Congressman  Parsons,  of  Illinois.  On 
my  left  is  Congressman  Osmers,  of  New  Jersey,  and  on  my  extreme 
left  is  Mr.  Curtis,  of  Nebraska. 

The  resolution  creating  this  committee  passed  Congress  in  April 
and  we  started  out  with  our  first  hearing  in  New  York  with  Mayor 
LaGuardia  our  first  witness.  He  designated  this  problem  as  a  na- 
tional problem  and  said  the  condition  was  very  bad  in  New  York. 
As  I  said,  they  sent  5,000  people  home  in  1  year  and  spent  $3,000,000 
in  doing  it. 

We  found  the  same  situation  in  Alabama,  Illinois,  Nebraska, 
Oklahoma,  and  California.  I  want  to  tell  you  what  we  did.  We 
had  witnesses  not  onlj^  from  New  York,  but  from  adjoining  States. 
Then  we  communicated  with  every  Governor  and  every  mayor  in  the 
United  States  to  get  a  pen  picture  of  the  facts  in  their  own  individual 
States.  When  we  file  our  report,  I  think  we  will  have  a  factual 
document. 

I  also  want  to  say  to  you  that  this  is  a  unique  congressional  com- 
mittee. We  have  never  issued  a  subpena;  we  have  never  attempted 
to  cross-examine  any  witnesses.  We  simply  want  to  get  the  facts. 
And  so,  Mrs.  Roosevelt,  if  you  will  make  any  statement  which  you 
care  to  in  your  own  way  we  will  appreciate  it. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3743 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Well,  I  don't  feel,  of  course,  that  I  have  any  infor- 
mation which  you  haven't  already  acquired,  and  probably  with  a 
great  deal  more  authentication  than  I  have. 

All  I  can  do  is  to  tell  you  what  I  have  seen  and  the  impressions 
that  I  have  gathered  from  talking  to  people  in  different  parts  of 
the  country.  You  have  had  a  much  better  opportunity  than  I  have. 
You  know  more  about  it  than  I  do  and  you  have  probably  looked 
up  statistics  which  I  haven't  had  an  opportunity  to  do. 

The  Chairman.  We  found,  Mrs.  Roosevelt,  in  New  York  that  you 
were  ahead  of  us. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Well,  I  can  only  tell  you  what  I  happened  to  see. 
That  I  will  be  more  than  glad  to  do. 

CALirORNLA.   MIGRAXT  CAMPS 

Now,  in  California  I  tried  in  a  very  brief  time  to  see  all  the  dif- 
ferent types  of  camps  because  I  had  noticed  that  outside  almost 
every  village  or  town  of  any  size  you  could  see  on  the  outskirts  a 
settlement  which  was  growing  up  of  cars  with  shacks  or  tents  or 
trailers  or  almost  anything,  sometimes  without  any  pattern  at  all, 
and  other  times  on  land  which  some  foresighted  person  had  purchased 
and  was  renting.  And  in  certain  places  there  would  be  electric 
lights.  That  would  add  to  the  rent  because  it  would  mean  that  in 
the  tent  there  would  be  an  electric  bulb  let  in  through  the  top.  But 
sometimes  it  was  just  a  plain  squatter  camp  growing  up. 

And  I  went  to  one  which  I  suppose  would  be  called  a  jungle  type 
of  thing  where  they  paid  no  rent,  down  by  a  river,  which  was  pretty 
bad — no  sanitation,  no  effort  toward  taking  care  of  sanitation  in 
any  way. 

Then  I  went  to  a  county  camp  where  the  county  was  providing 
certain  safeguards.  That  was  pretty  bad,  too,  but  they  did  make  an 
effort  in  the  way  of  providing  certain  safeguards.  It  happened  it 
had  rained  the  day  before  I  was  there  and  a  number  of  tents  had 
been  flooded  and  they  were  having  to  move  out  because  no  precau- 
tions had  been  taken  as  to  how  their  tent  should  be  placed  or  where 
it  was  put. 

There  was  an  effort  at  the  community  building  to  help  these  people 
to  a  certain  extent.  An  effort  was  made  to  provide  a  washing 
machine  and  a  place  to  wash  clothes  and  there  was  an  attempt  at 
having  some  kind  of  shower  arrangement.  If  I  remember  correctly, 
there  were  two  showers  and  two  toilets  in  that  camp. 

Then  I  went  to  a  strange  place  that  I  suppose  might  be  called  a 
private  enterprise.  It  was  land  rented  out  with  fences  around  small 
plots  on  which  people  were  allowed  to  build  their  own  houses.  Wlien 
they  left,  they  could  sell  what  they  left  there.  I  saw  a  man  and  his 
wife  and  children  living  on  a  plot  of  ground,  which  they  were  clean- 
ing up.  He  had  bought  the  house,  which  was  largely  built  out  of 
scraps  of  corrugated  iron  and  heavy  paper  of  different  kinds.  And 
a  very  interesting  thing,  because  it  seemed  to  me  it  showed  an  entire 
lack  of  supervision  of  sanitation,  was  the  fact  that  the  pipe  for  the 
water  was  immediately  next  to  the  toilet.     Apparently  that  didn't 


3744 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


bother  anybody.  But  I  am  sure  they  must  have  epidemics  at  differ- 
ent periods  of  the  year  in  those  camps.  I  don't  know  whether  you 
found  that  in  your  investigations,  but  it  seemed  to  me  it  was 
inevitable. 

One  thing  that  interested  me  was  the  story  of  a  young  man  who 
came  from  Oklahoma  originally.  He  trekked  all  the  way  out  to 
California  and  then  he  heard  there  was  some  work  in  the  oil  fields 
of  Oklahoma  and  he  trekked  all  the  way  back  and  looked  for  some 
work  and  got  a  little  work  for  a  short  time.  Then  he  lost  his  job 
again,  so  he  was  back  in  California  to  start  out  again. 

And  finally,  after  looking  at  every  type  of  camp  that  I  could  find,  I 
went  to  the  Government  Farm  Security  camps — the  different  ones 
that  they  have  out  there.  I  think  they  have  done  a  good  thing  in 
making  a  model.  It  isn't  enough,  but  it  is  a  good  thing  if  other 
people  would  follow  the  pattern. 

Outside  of  those  camps,  which  are  really  for  people  who  are  going- 
to  move  on,  they  have  accommodations  for  people  who  really  get  a 
job  which  will  last  a  little  while.  These  are  little,  tiny  bits  of  land 
with  little  houses  on  them.  These  are  particularly  valuable  from  the 
point  of  view  that  a  great  many  of  these  people  have  not  been 
farmers.  We  think  of  them  all  as  being  from  the  Dust  Bowl  or 
some  place  like  that,  but  many  of  them  have  not  been  farmers,  and 
many  of  them  have.  But  even  those  who  have  been  very  frequently 
failed  because  they  have  no  modern  direction  in  farming.  They 
have  done  what  their  grandfathers  did  before  them.  I  have  an  idea 
that  what  they  get  under  expert  supervision  in  cultivating  small  acre- 
ages like  that  will  be  very  useful  if  they  ever  again  do  acquire  land 
of  their  own.  They  will  have  learned  some  fundamental  things  that 
even  if  they  have  been  farmers  they  haven't  had  an  opportunity  to 
learn  before. 

Now,  I  noticed  this  year  in  Texas,  just  lately,  that  that  same  type 
of  jungle  growth  outside  of  small  places  is  occurring.  There  are  a 
few  Farm  Security  camps  that  have  just  been  established,  but  I 
noticed  the  jungle  developments  from  the  train  window.  They  are 
sufficiently  evident  to  see  in  that  way. 

It  is,  of  course,  easy  to  understand.  Texas  is  a  very  big  Stat€. 
People  think  of  it  as  a  land  of  opportunity.  They  will  go  back  from 
the  cities  to  farms  and  farm  families  where  the  land  for  generations 
has  been  so  badly  farmed  that  it  cannot  support  the  people  left  on 
it,  much  less  those  who  return  from  the  cities. 

That  means  a  lowering  of  the  standard  of  living  for  the  entire 
group.  You  find  them  going  back  to  the  Kentucky  mountains  where^ 
Heaven  knows,  the  farm  never  was  able  to  support  them,  and  the 
entire  standard  for  the  whole  group  goes  down. 

DESTRUCTIVE  LIVING  CONDITIONS 

NoAV,  this  situation  has  implications  for  the  future  which  I  think 
are  very  serious.  It  has  health  implications  to  begin  with.  The 
people,  "all  of  them,  young  and  old,  are  deteriorating  in  health.  No- 
body gets  proper  care  for  the  eyes  or  the  teeth  or  malnutrition — bad 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3745 

nutrition— lack  of  change  of  diet.  That  sort  of  thing  has  a  perma- 
nent effect  on  all  the  people  and  particularly  on  the  children. 

Now,  that  is  a  purely  physical  thing.  From  the  point  of  view  of 
education  I  think  this  migration  is  done  largely  by  the  finer  people, 
the  people  that  still  have  adventure  in  their  souls.  That  is  not 
universally  so,  but  it  is  frequently  so.  You  find  they  are  of  very 
good  stock.  You  will  be  struck  by  the  beauty  of  some  of  the  chil- 
dren, real  fineness  of  features.  And  they  have  bright  minds.  But 
they  are  not  getting  the  continuity  of  education  which  any  child 
gets  who  stays  in  one  place  and  has  a  home. 

The  bad  feeding  and  the  bad  environment  and  the  bad  conditions 
are  factors.  These  people  put  forth  a  terrific  effort  to  make  their 
living  conditions  as  decent  as  possible,  but  they  can't  be  good  con- 
ditions. I  think  we  are  gomg  to  see  the  results  reflected  in  the 
ability  of  those  young  people  to  make  a  living,  to  stick  to  a  standard, 
that  is,  a  decent,  American  standard.  You  cannot  use  your  brain 
as  well  if  you  are  physically  run  down. 

I  think  that  condition  is  very  serious  to  us  for  the  future,  because 
these  are  big  families.  They  are  really  the  families  that  are  fur- 
nishing the  increase  in  our  j^opulation.  When  they  go  back  to  the 
Mountain  States  and  back  into  the  South  that  is  where  the  increase 
in  population  is  coming  in  the  future. 

The  lowering  of  standards  of  living  is  a  very  serious  thing,  I  be- 
lieve. You  haven't  been  in  Florida,  but  there  is  some  migratory 
labor  there,  too,  and  a  good  deal  in  the  Everglades.  Last  year  I 
went  in  to  see  what  the  Government  camps  were  doing  and  I  was 
struck  by  one  very  curious  thing.  I  have  always  thought  that  a 
very  good  example  would  stimulate  the  neighborhood  to  live  up  to 
it.  They  have  one  sugar  plantation  there,  where  the  manager  is  a 
Quaker,  that  is  most  beautifully  run.  He,  being  a  practical  Quaker, 
told  me  that  he  did  it  that  way  because  it  paid  him.  But  he  got 
the  same  migratory  labor  coming  in  every  year  from  Georgia  and 
South  Carolina  and  Alabama  and  they  came  year  after  year  because 
they  knew  their  conditions  would  be  decent. 

I  have  forgotten  now  the  exact  amount  but  he  told  me  how  much 
money  they  sent  back  into  those  States.  It  was  really  a  very  big 
sum  of  money,  because  it  is  a  big  plantation.  But  right  next  to 
that  plantation  was  a  jungle  under  the  worst  conditions  I  have  ever 
seen. 

They  had  started  to  burn  it  down  and  I  hope  by  now  it  is  com- 
pletely burned  down,  because  it  was  a  firetrap.  If  a  fire  had  started 
there  in  the  nighttime  the  people  on  the  second  floor — there  were 
two  stories — would  have  burned  to  xleath  without  any  question.  It 
was  like  a  rabbit  warren — they  were  that  close  together.  There 
was  only  one  hydrant  for  water.  Everybody  got  their  water  from 
that  one  hydrant.  There  was  only  one  toilet  to  accommodate  a  teem- 
ing population. 

Now,  in  the  Everglades,  of  course,  there  are  both  white  and  colored. 
The  colored  work  at  certain  things  in  the  fields,  while  the  white  peo- 
ple work  in  the  canning  industry.  The  conditions  of  both  are  equally 
bad. 


gy^g  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

The  problem  is  one  of  absentee  ownership,  too,  because  people  will 
come  down  and  they  will  go  in  with  someone  who  lives  in  Palm 
Beach  or  anywhere  around  to  rent  some  of  this  land.  Then  they 
turn  it  over  to  a  manager.  They  use  contract  labor,  you  see.  The 
trucks  drive  in  in  the  morning  and  everybody  climbs  aboard.  When 
they  have  got  the  number  they  can  take,  they  drive  away.  If  a  man 
is  late  and  cannot  climb  aboard  the  truck  fast  enough,  he  doesn't  get 
a  job.     If  he  is  early  he  does  get  one. 

FUTURE  TOLL  FROM  PRESENT  UNHEALTHY  SITUATION 

Well,  the  situation  is  unhealthy  all  the  way  through.  It  is  bad  for 
our  future.  Somehow  in  talking  to  those  people  you  get  a  feeling  that 
they  haven't  the  remotest  idea  of  what  it  means  to  be  a  citizen  in  a 
democracy.  That,  I  think,  is  something  we  should  be  thinking  about 
today  because  it  is  very  important  that  everybody  should  know  what 
he  wants  to  defend  and  why.  ,  , 

I  have  been  really  quite  distressed  as  I  saw  what  these  conditions 
might  mean.  The  "people  who  live  in  those  conditions  there  move 
north  with  the  chance  of  getting  work.  You  see  them  everywhere. 
You  can  meet  them  in  New  York  State.  I  have  seen  them  there. 
And  it  isn't  the  mere  fact  that  they  are  migratory.  Wliat  they  be- 
come toudies  community  after  community  throughout  the  country.  I 
think  in  the  future  the  young  people  are  going  to  present  a  heavy 
burden  as  cases  in  tuberculosis  hospitals  and  prisons  unless  we  devise 
some  means  of  seeing  that  education  moves  with  them  and  that  they 
have  sufficient  chance  to  work  for  a  living  wage. 

We  have  to  have  certain  migration.  There  is  no  doubt  about  that. 
But  it  has  got  to  be  made  so  that  people  can  live  with  some  decency. 
Otherwise  I  think  we  an  in  for  a  very  difficult  and  rather  dangerous 
situation  for  us  all. 

DISSEMINATA    N  OF  MISLEADING  INFORMATION 

The  Chairman.  Now,  Mrs.  Koosevelt,  our  investigation  discloses 
that  there  are  about  000,000  people  migrating  between  States. 
That  is  the  figure  for  last  year.  The  record  also  discloses  that  when 
they  go  to  private  employment  agencies  they  are  given  wrong  infor- 
mation merely  for  the  purpose  of  getting  their  money.  They  are 
promised  jobs  which  are  not  there. 

Of  course,  this  committee  will  have  some  jurisdiction  and  some 
regulation  regarding  that  because  that  is  interstate  commerce. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Well,  over  and  over  again  people  I  have  talked  to 
have  shown  me  those  little  flyers  given  out  which  they  had  picked  up 
somewhere  and  they  had  made  the  move  to  another  place.  Now,  I 
don't  Imow-  who  furnishes  those  flyers  or  who  distributes  them  but  I 
have  seen  them  in  their  possession — a  number  of  different  flyers  say- 
ing: "Here  work  is  available." 

The  Chairman.  You  see  not  only  that  but  when  those  good  people 
describe  to  you  how  they  started  out  from  home  on  account  of  certain 
circumstances  over  which  they  had  no  control,  it  becomes  a  matter  of 
considerable  concern  to  all  of  us. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3747 

They  are  good  American  citizens  and  the  question  is  how  are  we 
going  "to  treat  them.  At  least  we  will  have  to  give  them  reliable 
information. 

The  Federal  Government  should  be  able  to  give  them  correct  in- 
formation as  to  where  there  are  jobs  and  where  there  are  no  jobs. 
They  should  have  that  before  they  leave  home  and  while  on  the 
way.  Instead  of  being  kicked  around  as  they  are  now,  they  shoiild 
be  given  a  helping  hand. 

You  see,  Mrs.  Roosevelt,  what  we  have  done  in  this  country  in 
150  years  is  to  protect  and  regulate  religiously  iron  and  coal  and 
steel"  passing  through  the  States.  We  have  the  Interstate  Commerce 
Commission  to  take  care  of  that.  But  we  haven't  done  very  much 
for  human  interstate  commerce  so  far  as  the  record  goes.  In  self- 
defense  the  States  now  have  raised  barriers  from  6  months  up  to  5 
years. 

Well,  what  are  we  going  to  do?  You  are  a  citizen  of  the  State 
of  New  York  and  under  the  Constitution  you  are  a  citizen  of  the 
other  47  States,  but  when  you  start  out  to  move  it  doesn't  work  out 
verv  practically. 

So  this  committee,  with  the  assistance  of  your  testimony  and 
that  of  others,  hope  that  first  we  will  be  able  to  give  the  people  who 
have  to  move  and  do  move  reliable  information  and  protect  them 
in  every  way  we  possibly  can. 

EFFECT  OF  DIFFERING  RULES  ON  RELIEF 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  May  I  ask  a  question,  Mr.  Chairman?  Have  you 
found  that  tlie  differing  rules  on  relief  have  made  a  great  deal^  of 
difference?  For  instance,  one  of  the  things  that  troubles  me  is  that 
rules  have  been  made  to  keep  people  out  an--^yet  people  go  and  then 
you  find  such  really  terrible  situations. 

People  are  being  sent  back  where  nobod  feels  any  sense  of  re- 
sponsibility for  them  and  they  are  really  gdi-  'g.  back  very  often  with 
no  future 'anywhere,  no  hope.  Is  there  ai.  thing  you  have  found 
that  would  change  that  condition? 

The  Chairinian.  Well,  I  am  speaking  for'Miyself  personally,  Mrs. 
Roosevelt.  I  talked  to  these  people  throughout  the  country,  par- 
ticularly those  who  came  from  the  farms,  and  I  have  not  found  one 
who  would  not  have  liked  to  have  stayed  home  if  he  could.  They 
had  various  reasons  for  moving — like  this  migrant  family  here — 
and  that  is  tlie  trouble  with  this  problem.  It  is  really  directly  or 
indirectly  connected  with  every  economic  dislocation  we  have.  Do 
you  have  anything  to  say,  Ccmgressmnn  Parsons? 

Mr.  PaeS!NS.  Mrs.  Roosevelt,  it  is  quite  coincidental.  Starting 
in  New  York  with  the  hearing  we  had  Mayor  LaGuardia,  as  Mr. 
Tolan  told  you.  Well,  he  is  a' very  much  traveled  migrant  himself 
and  so  is  tlie  chairman  of  our  committee — from  Minnesota  to  Mon- 
tana, and  Mcmtana  to  California,  and  California  to  Congress,  and 
you  are  very  much  of  a  traveling  migrant  as  well  as  the  rest  of  us. 
I  believe  yoii  are  styled  No.  1  migrant. 


260370— 41— pt. ! 


qy^g  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

I  know  that  you  have  seen  a  great  deal  of  these  conditions.  We  are 
very  happy  to  have  you  with  us.  We  have  had  several  recommenda- 
tions made  about  giving  gi-ants-in-aid  to  the  States  for  the  purpose 
of  aiding  those  States  in  taking  care  of  destitute  migrants. 

HANDLE    MIGRATION     THROUGH     COORDINATED    EFFORTS     OF    GOVERNMENT 

AGENCIES 

Do  you  think  this  is  a  national  problem  and  that  the  Federal 
Government  should  give  grants-in-aid  to  these  States  ? 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  I  think  it  is  a  national  problem,  but  I  do  not 
feel  that  I  am  sufficiently  informed  about  it  to  make  any  recom- 
mendations as  to  how  it  should  be  handled. 

I  think  there  is  no  question  that  it  is  a  national  problem  but  I 
feel  that  I  am  not  fitted  to  make  any  recommendations. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Well,  you  have  been  quite  a  leader  in  the  public-wel- 
fare field.  If  the  Congress  should  decide  to  give  grants  in  aid  to  the 
States,  where  do  you  thing  the  administrative  agency  should  be  set 
up— in  social  security,  labor,  farm  security,  or  where? 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Well,  that  would  depend  on  many  things.  There 
are  so  many  factors  involved  that  I  would  want  to  think  that  over  very 
carefully.  I  think  that  for  certain  people  in  certain  places  the  Farm 
Security  Administration  has  done  the  outstanding  job.  On  the  other 
hand,  you  might  find  that  in  other  places  you  would  have  to  have  a 
combination  of  responsibility,  that  it  couldn't  all  be  taken  by  one 
agency. 

For  that  reason  I  think  that  you  would  have  to  have  all  those  agen- 
cies in  and  find  out  what  they  had  been  doing,  what  had  fallen  to  their 
lot,  whether  they  wanted  it  or  not.  In  that  way  you  could  make  a 
decision  as  to  how  to  handle  it  in  the  most  helpful  way. 

Of  course,  all  these  things  depend  largely  on  the  choice  of  personnel 
for  their  success.  The  pattern  which  works  beautifully  in  one  place 
because  you  happen  to  have  a  human  being  who  understands  the  prob- 
lem might  be  a  total  failure  in  another  place.  You  have  always  got 
to  bear  that  in  mind.  I  think  you  should  do  whatever  you  do  with  as 
much  flexibility  as  possible,  this  is  a  changing  problem.  You  are 
always  going  to  find  different  situations  that  have  to  be  met. 

The  medical  side  of  this  problem  is  a  tremendous  problem.  There 
is  a  great  need  for  some  kind  of  medical  service  for  groups  of  people 
of  this  kind. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Well,  we  also  had  a  suggestion  made  to  the  committee 
that  a  coordinated  board  might  be  made  up,  composed  of  one  from 
agriculture,  one  from  Public  Health  Service,  one  from  labor,  one  from 
the  social  security,  and  probably  from  the  Employment  Service,  to 
constitute  a  coordinated  board  and  probably  lodge  the  administrative 
work  under  the  Social  Security  Board.  The  idea  is,  however,  to  have 
the  one  board  doing  that  work — a  coordinated  board  of  representatives 
of  the  several  departments. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3749 

INCLUDE  EDUCATION  IN  TROGRAM  FOR  MIGRANT  AID 

Mrs.  KoosEVELT.  I  should  think  it  would  be  desirable  to  use  any 
agency  in  any  place  where  the  necessity  may  arise.  But  I  think  you 
should  add  some  representative  from  education  if  possible. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  has  been  mentioned. 

I  was  very  much  impressed  with  what  you  said  concerning  the  lack 
of  educational  opportunities  and  facilities  of  these  migrant  people. 

We  have  found  that  there  were  some  fifty  or  sixty  thousand  on  the 
road  from  Florida,  beginning  about  now,  coming  up  the  Atlantic  coast, 
and  winding  up  in  the  State  of  New  Jersey,  where  they  dig  potatoes 
along  in  August,  and  then  back  to  the  southern  States,  where  they  will 
gather  tobacco  and  pick  cotton. 

That  has  been  increasing  for  the  last  10  or  1.5  years.  In  another 
decade  we  are  going  to  have  these  same  migrant  children  with  their 
families  making  the  same  rounds  more  or  less,  none  of  them  ever  hav- 
ing seen  the  inside  of  a  schoolroom  for  probably  more  than  a  year. 

Mrs.  KoosEVELT.  I  wonder  if  a  thing  I  got  from  a  young  Harvard 
student  would  interest  you.  He  went  with  the  C.  C.  C.  camp  as 
an  educational  ad^nser.  He  was  just  out  of  Harvard.  One  of  the 
boys  asked  for  a  recommendation  when  he  was  leaving.  The  young 
Harvard  boy  would  not  give  it  to  him.  So  the  boy  came  in  and 
said:  "Wliy  won't  you  give  me  a  recommendation?" 

The  other  boy  said :  "Because  you  did  not  take  advantage  in 
your  off  time  of  any  of  the  educational  opportunities  offered  to  you 
here." 

The  boy  looked  at  him,  and  he  said:  "How  could  I?  I  never  had 
any  education.  My  father  never  earned  enough  money  to  give  us 
kids  more  than  potatoes  to  eat.  If  I  go  home  I  will  get  that  kind 
of  a  job  because  I  am  not  fitted  for  any  other,  and  my  kids  will 
eat  potatoes,"  and  the  rest  of  the  circle  as  it  goes  around. 

Now  you  see  even  if  they  go  to  school  for  a  short  time  they  drop 
out  again  and  they  are  back  always  at  the  place  they  started.  They 
never  really  get  anywhere  in  their  education. 

Mr.  Parsons.  The  suggestion  was  made  by  a  representative  of  the 
Department  of  Education,  who  appeared  before  the  committee  the 
other  day,  that  we  might  place  on  the  road  itinerant  teachers  to 
conduct  schools  right  along  in  the  camps  wherever  these  migrants 
move — have  certain  hours  of  the  day  or  night  for  school  work. 

Mrs.  RoosEX'ELT.  You  will  have  to  do  something  about  child  labor. 

Mr.  Parsons.  W^ll,  after  all,  we  have  found  that  the  children  of 
the  inigrant  families  are  the  ones  who  can  make  more  money  for  the 
family  than  the  heads  of  the  family. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Exactly. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Because  they  are  young. 

Mrs.  Roose\t:lt.  But  they  don't  make  it  because  they  get  good 
wages;  they  make  it  only  because  there  are  a  lot  of  them. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  true. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  And  because  they  work  long  hours. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 


3750  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mrs.  Koosevelt,  as  you  know,  there  are  now  ia 
social  security  three  different  categories,  one  for  aid  to  the  aged, 
one  for  aid  to  the  blind,  and  one  for  aid  to  dependent  children. 

One  suggestion  that  has  been  made  to  us  many  different  times  is 
that  a  fourth  category  should  be  added  to  the  Social  Security  Board 
to  provide  for  direct  relief  or  general  relief  and  that  one  phase  of 
that  would  take  care  of  the  migrant  problem. 

I  wonder  what  your  thoughts  are  in  that  connection. 

Mrs.  Koosevelt.  That  again  is  something  I  am  not  prepared  to 
make  any  recommendations  on. 

I  feel  that  I  would  really  have  to  study  that  problem  a  great  deal 
more  and  know  much  more  of  the  things  that  you  know  before  I 
could  make  any  recommendation. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  wondered  what  your  reaction  to  that  might  be. 
You  mentioned  something  about  the  hea^'y  birth  rate  in  the  south- 
ern States.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  in  one  of  our  hearings  the  South- 
•east  was  aptly  referred  to  as  the  "seed  bed  of  the  Nation."  It  was 
shown  that  the  rate  of  reproduction  there  was  approximately  130 
percent,  whereas  in  some  of  the  northern  areas  it  was  only  80 
percent. 

And  I  believe  accompanying  that  was  the  statement  that  that  is 
the  region,  or  one  of  the  regions,  of  low  economic  opportunity.  Yet 
in  every  one  of  these  aid  })rograms  it  is  required  that  the  State 
match  the  Federal  money  dollar  for  dollar. 

The  result  is  that  those  places  needing  the  help  most  get  the  least, 

I  wonder  what  your  thoughts  are  with  reference  to  changing  that 
method  of  extending  aid  and  putting  it  on  the  basis  of  need  rather 
than  on  a  basis  of  ability  to  match. 

MIGRATION  IS  NATIONAL  PROBLEM 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Well,  we  think  too  often  in  terms  of  sections.  It 
w^as  all  very  weW  to  think  in  terms  of  sections  of  the  country  and 
States  in  our  early  days,  but  today  we  really  have  to  think  of  ourselves 
as  a  Nation. 

This  is  a  problem  that  affects  the  Nation.  Many  of  our  problems 
that  may  occur  in  this  section  of  the  country  or  in  another  section  of 
the  country  have  become  national  problems.  But  eventually  it  will 
affect  the  entire  country,  because  these  people  don't  remain  in  South 
'Carolina  or  Georgia  or  the  State  of  Washington  or  wherever  it  may  be. 

I  mean,  they  move.  I  do  think  we  are  .going  to  have  to  begin  to 
dface  the  fact  that  we  are  a  Nation  and  that  the  problems  are  the  prob- 
lems of  the  Nation  and  cannot  be  handled  as  problems  of  the  various 
States. 

Now,  how  you  shall  do  that  or  what  you  shall  do  I  do  not  consider 
I  am  capable  of  advising  you. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  believe  you  agree  that  a  part  of  the  migrant 
problem  might  be  handled  by  taking  such  steps  as  we  may  to  stop 
needless  migration.  I  am  sure  you  agree  with  me  that  a  great  deal 
(of  the  migration  is  necessary  and  desirable. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3751 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Some  of  it  is  necessary  and  desirable  and  some  of  it 
is  the  result  of  wastefulness  on  our  part,  which  was  natural  in  a 
pioneering  nation  but  which  Ave  must  learn  how  to  stop  for  the  future 
safety  of  oar  country. 

I  think  much  of  our  land  has  been  temporarily  destroyed  because  we 
didn't  have  knowledge  enough  not  to  destroy  it.  It  Avill  take  us  time 
to  get  it  back  again. 

But  I  think  wherever  it  is  possible  we  should  do  away  with  unneces- 
sary migration,  because  this  Nation  was  built  as  a  Nation  of  homes,  of 
permanent  homes,  and  I  think  that  still  remains  the  objective  of  most 
of  our  people,  and  our  safeguard. 

QUESTION   OF   UNION   INITIATION   FEE 

Mr.  Sparkman.  When  they  are  once  on  the  road,  though,  it  becomes 
our  duty  to  reach  out  the  helping  hand,  Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Shortly  after 
you  came  in,  Mrs.  Thomas  was  testifying  about  the  effort  of  her 
husband  to  obtain  work. 

She  testified  that  he  was  an  experienced  and  qualified  electrician. 
Upon  application  at  Fort  Meade  he  was  offered  a  job  which  would  have 
paid  him  $1.65  an  hour  as  an  electrician.  But  in  order  to  hold  down 
that  job  it  was  necessary  for  him  to  belong  to  the  electricians'  union. 
Applying  to  the  local  here  in  Washington  he  found  that  he  Avould  be 
required  to  pay  $300  initiation  fee,  all  in  cash. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Was  that  the  American  Federation  of  Labor  or 
C.  I.  O.  organization? 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  don't  know.  She  simply  said — and,  in  fact,  I  have 
nothing  to  verify  the  statement.  She  was  quoting  her  husband.  Mr. 
Shishkin,  of  the  American  Federation  of  Labor,  testified  yesterday  and 
touched  on  that.  He  said  that  in  their  convention  in  New  Orleans  the 
A.  F.  of  L.  discussed  that  rather  at  length,  and  that  they  had  taken 
steps  to  place  some  restrictions  on  their  locals  where  these  exorbitant 
fees  were  being  charged. 

If  that  is  true,  I  just  wonder  what  is  your  thought  about  such  a  fee 
as  that  being  charged  this  migrant  electrician  who,  of  course,  had 
nothing  Avith  which  to  pay  it? 

Mrs.  Roosevelt,  Well,  of  course,  you  have  to  go  back  a  little  bit 
further.  I  think  you  have  to  realize  that  probably  the  beginning 
of  that  came  when  there  were  too  many  workmen  to  get  work.  I 
suppose  there  are,  in  certain  groups,  rackets.  And  I  suppose,  per- 
haps, that  may  be  one  of  them.  I  don't  know.  I  am  not  fully 
conversant  with  just  Avhat  all  these  ramifications  are. 

But  I  do  know  that  where  there  is^work  and  if  it  is  not  controlled, 
by  a  racket,  there  are  possibilities  of  adjustment.  I  don't  believe, 
unless  it  is  in  a  locality  where  there  is  a  racket  going  on,  that  where 
there  is  work  a  man  would  be  kept  out  for  his  initiation  fee.  I  think 
some  adjustment  would  be  made. 

But,  as  I  say,  I  don't  knoAV  this  immediate  situation  and  I  don't 
know  the  Avhole  picture  well  enough  to  pass  judgment. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Well,  certainly,  every  encouragement  should  be 
given  these  people  to  get  jobs. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Of  course. 


3752  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Spakkman.  Kather  than  obstacles  being  thrown  in  their  way. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  And  I  think  a  good  union  would  do  it  and  would 
make  the  adjustment.  And  I  think  you  will  find  that  in  a  great 
many  unions  they  do  business  just  exactly  that  way.  What  this 
particular  situation  is,  I  don't  know. 

I  think  you  should  get  the  local  union  head  up  here  and  ask  him 
about  that  and  have  the  man  here  and  have  it  out.  I  think  it  would 
be  very  interesting. 

Mr.  Spakkman.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mrs.  Roosevelt.  That  is 
all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

MAJOR  CAUSES  OF  MIGRATION 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Mrs.  Roosevelt,  we  have  discussed  a  great  deal  the 
effect  of  migration.  I  wonder  if  you  would  care  to  give  the  com- 
mittee your  views  on  the  major  causes  of  migration  ? 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Well,  they  vary  greatly.  I  mean,  we  have  some 
people  whose  land  is  gone.  They  have  owned  land  always  and  are 
people  who  want  to  own  land  again.  Theirs  is  the  land  that  was  in 
the  Dust  Bowl  area  or  other  stricken  sections  of  the  country  and  for 
various  reasons  it  was  impossible  for  them  to  make  a  living. 

Then  we  have,  because  of  the  depression,  a  great  many  people 
in  the  cities  who  have  not  been  able  to  get  jobs,  who  are  either  looking 
for  jobs  in  other  cities  and  industrial  centers  or  who  are  going  back 
to  their  own  farm  area  where,  at  least,  they  have  friends  and  where 
they  know  they  can  have  something  to  eat  and  some  shelter. 

There  are,  of  course,  people  whose  jobs  have  always  been  migratory 
and  who  are  needed  to  do  that  work.  Therefore,  while  it  is  badly 
organized  and  while  it  has  a  great  many  draw-backs,  migratory  work 
is  a  legitimate  thing.  To  handle  it  requires  only  an  understanding 
of  the  problem  and  a  real  determination  to  solve  it.  But  it  will 
have  to  be  handled. 

The  other  people  who  are  migrating  are  part  of  the  whole  eco- 
nomic picture  of  what  has  happened  to  us  in  this  country.  We  do 
not  have  to  think  of  them  as  permanent,  but  we  do  hg,ve  to  think 
of  the  way  in  which  we-  can  remove  the  causes  which  made  them 
become  migrants, 

GROWER  CAMPS 

Mr.  OsMERS.  As  I  recall  your  testimony  on  your  travels  in  Cali- 
fornia, I  don't  recall  your  mentioning  any  of  the  grower  camps  in 
California.     Did  you  visit  any  of  them  while  you  were  there? 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  No;  I  did  not  visit  any  grower  camp.  I  mean, 
any  camp  where  they  were  actually  housing  people  who  were  work- 
ing at  the  time. 

I  saw  one  camp  in  passing  where  the  conditions  didn't  look  very 
good  so  far  as  one  could  see  just  passing  by.  I  went,  of  course, 
jDrimarily  to  see  the  camps  where  the  people  who  didn't  have  work 
went  every  day. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  They  would  commute  back  and  forth  to  their  jobs  ? 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Yes ;  commute  back  and  forth. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3753 

Mr.  OsMERS.  We,  of  course,  noticed  a  great  difference  in  conditions 
in  the  same  type  of  camps.  A  county  camp  would  not  be  the  equal 
of  a  Federal  camp  and  one  private  enterprise  would  not  compare 
favorably  with  another. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  The  sugar  plantation  in  Palm  Beach  County,  Fla., 
to"  which  you  referred,  is  probably  an  outstanding  example  of  grower 
housing  for  migratory  labor  ? 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  That  is  a  wonderful  plant  there. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  We  had  their  owners  and  managers  before  the  com- 
mittee when  we  were  in  Alabama  and  they  do  have  a  very  fine  opera- 
tion there. 

Would  it  be  your  opinion  that  the  grower  camp  would  answer  the 
migrant-labor  problem  as  a  long-time  solution,  under  rigid  super- 
vision. 

Mrs.  RoosE^^ELT.  Yes;  where  it  is  necessary  to  have  that  type  of 
labor. 

You  remember  there  they  have  certain  people  they  keep  all  the 
year  around  who  have  houses  of  their  own.  Then  they  have  migrant 
labor  that  they  require  at  certain  periods,  primarily  men.  They 
don't  have  families  come  down  there  particularly.  They  just  have 
the  men  come  for  short  periods  of  time. 

I  think  that  is  probably  a  very  excellent  solution.  But,  of  course, 
you  have  got  to  go  a  little  deeper  into  it.  Even  if  we  got  good  hous- 
ing and  good  camps  for  them  if  with  it  didn't  go  decent  wages  and 
proper  treatment  you  might  find  yourself  faced  with  very  bad  con- 
ditions just  the  same,  in  spite  of  the  fact  that  the  camp  that  was 
provided  was  a  healthier  place  to  live  in. 

For  instance,  if  they  were  forced  to  buy  at  a  company  store  and 
the  company  prices  were  very  very  high,  they  might  go  out  of  there 
with  no  money  at  all. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  The  committee's  experience  has  been,  speaking  at 
least  as  one  member  of  the  committee,  that  where  there  was  a  social 
consciousness  on  the  part  of  the  owner,  all  conditions  went  ahead 
hand  in  hand,  wages  and  hours,  housing,  education,  and  health. 

I  know  that  in  New  Jersey,  where  we  have  a  very  serious  problem, 
we  have  accomplished  a  great  deal  through  the  proper  exercise  of  the 
police  power  embodied  in  the  State  department  of  health. 

PLAN  FOR  POST-EMERGENCY  MIGRATION 

The  defense  program  is  now  becoming  a  great  cause  of  migration 
in  the  United  States  and  people  are^  shifting  all  over  the  country  in 
search  of  jobs,  defense-program  jobs. 

Of  course,  in  most  instances  they  are  getting  jobs  in  the  defense 
industries. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Yes ;  but  you  are  faced  in  many  places  with  terri- 
ble housing  shortages  because  they  are  shifting. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  In  some  places  'housing  is  nonexistent^  because  the 
workers,  in  their  eagerness,  arrive  sometimes  6  months  in  advance  of 
the  completion  of  a  plant. 


3754 


INTEK STATE  MIGRATION 


Would  you  care  to  express  an  opinion  upon  the  effect  that  peace  will 
have  upon  the  migration  of  citizens  in  the  United  States? 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Well,  I  think  it  depends  entirely  on  how  we  organ- 
ize ourselves  to  meet  the  future.  If  we  have  in  mind  what  we  are  going 
to  do  with  those  defense  plants  and  how  we  are  going  to  use  those  peo- 
ple who  are  then  working  there,  we  won't  face  the  same  things  that 
we  faced  before. 

If  we  are  not  going  to  that ;  if  the  owners  of  these  plants  and  the 
Government  itself  is  not  thinking  now  of  what  is  going  to  happen 
when  peace  comes,  then  we  are  going  to  have  mass  migration  again. 
We  are  going  to  be  faced  with  just  what  we  were  faced  with  before — 
the  plants  will  close  and  people  will  have  no  w^ork,  and  they  can't  stay 
where  they  have  no  work. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Of  course,  we  must  keep  in  mind  always  that  the 
branches  of  the  Government  concerned  with  the  industrial  part  of  the 
defense  program  are  working  under  terrific  pressure  and  they  are  try- 
ing to  make  a  production  schedule  rather  than  to  plan  for  the  future. 
But  I  was  thinking  of,  let  us  say,  a  powder  plant,  built  of  necessity 
back  in  the  hills,  that  might  employ  5,000  people.  When  peace  comes — 
and  we  know  it  is  coming — and  the  world  quiets  down  again,  that 
plant  will  close. 

Mrs.  RoosE\^LT.  Well,  I  am  not  an  economist.  I  don't  know  what 
should  be  done.  But  I  think  that  while  we  are,  of  course,  interested 
primarily  in  production,  there  must  be  people  in  this  country  who 
should  now  be  thinking  of  what  we  are  going  to  use  that  powder  plant 
for.  If  we  know  that  powder  plant  is  going  to  be  closed  down,  we 
should  be  thinking  of  where  we  are  going  to  put  those  people  and  what 
w^e  are  going  to  do  with  them  when  peace  does  come.  We  have  been  all 
through  that  once,  and  we  should  be  thinking  of  it  now  wdien  we  are 
not  at  war. 

Some  of  our  people  can  be  doing  that  thinking.  It  would  be  differ- 
ent and  we  would  be  excused  if  we  were  actually  at  war,  because,  once 
you  are  at  war,  there  is  nothing  to  do  but  fight  the  war,  and  you  for- 
get what  is  going  to  happen  when  peace  comes.  You  just  long  for  the 
day  when  peace  does  come. 

iBut  we  are  not  at  war.  We  have  still  got  plenty  of  people  in  this 
country  who  have  brains  and  inventive  ability  and  can  look  into  the 
future.  And  I  think  it  is  criminal  if  we  are  not  using  those  people 
today — telling  them  "this  is  your  problem  for  the  future ;  we  are  not 
going  to  be  where  we  were  in  1920;  we  are  not  going  to  have  that  thing 
happen  again  to  the  people  of  our  country." 

I  don't  know  what  it  will  bring  us.  I  don't  know  what  it  will  mean 
in  facing  new  situations  or  in  accustoming  our  peojjle  to  a  realization 
that  we  are  having  to  face  a  different  kind  of  world.  But  if  we  have 
got  to  do  it,  we  might  much  better  know  about  it  now  and  get  ready 
for  it. 

I  think  it  is  a  question  of  getting  all  the  people  together.  After  all, 
all  the  industries  have  peoj^le  that  they  pay,  and  pay  high,  to  plan  for 
the  future,  and  they  are  probably  still' doing  it.  Well,  they  might  just 
as  well  be  planning  for  the  things  that  we  are  really  going  to  meet  in 
the  future. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3755 

Mr,  OsMERS.  And  we  certainly  know  we  are  going  to  have  to 
face  that  problem  ? 

Mrs.  EoosEVELT.  We  certainly  know  we  are  going  to  meet  it  and 
we  had  better  do  so  this  time  with  the  idea  of  what  is  going  to 
happen  to  the  people  becanse  that  is  the  thing  that  is  really  going 
to  matter — what  is  going  to  happen  to  the  people  as  a  whole. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  know  we  can  tear  the  plants  down  and  destroy 
the  housing,  but  what  are  we  going  to  do  with  the  people? 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Yes;  you  can  tear  the  plants  down  but  what  is 
going  to  happen  to  the  people  who  are  working  in  those  plants? 
Now^,  we  had  better  be  thinking  about  that  and  planning  for  it. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  It  is  my  opinion — I  don't  know  whether  you  share 
it — that  if  we  do  not  plan  adequately  at  this  time  for  the  return  of 
peace,  we  may  have  a  change  in  our  basic  form  of  government  be- 
cause of  this  tremendous  number  of  people  who  will  be  thrown  out 
of  employment  and  thrown  into  economic  insecurity.  We  must  keep 
in  mind  that  not  only  Americans  will  be  in  that  condition,  but  ap- 
proximately 25,000,000  other  adults  and  workers  throughout  the 
world  will  be  in  exactly  the  same  position. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Well,  I  don't  think  my  opinion  on  that  would  be 
Avorthwhile  because  1  don't  know  as  much  as  you  do.  But  I  think 
it  is  something  we  should  be  thinking  about. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  would  like  to  ask  another  question  on  the  defense 
program.     I  am  just  making  a  guess,  Mrs.  Roosevelt. 

Don't  you  feel  that  we  should  make  some  economic  provision  in 
connection  with  the  pay  roll  of  these  defense  workers  now,  so  that 
when  their  jobs  do  disappear  they  will  not  be  immediately  without 
resources  of  any  kind  at  all  other  than  a  modest  amount  of  unem- 
ployment compensation?  I  mean  something  more  than  the  average 
amount  of  unemployment  compensation. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Now,  again,  I  am  talking  without  really  having 
any  knowledge,  so  don't  take  me  too  seriously  if  it  is  all  nonsense. 
Aren't  you  taking  it  for  granted  in  that  case  that  all  of  them  are 
employed  in  places  where  we  cannot  find  employment  for  them  in 
the  future?  Now,  in  that  case  you  are  putting  them  into  what 
might  be  called  or  classed  as  hazardous  industries. 

Mr.  Osmers.  If  I  may  interrupt  you,  I  was  just  thinking  of  those 
workers  that  were  engaged  in  manufacturing  munitions  of  war, 
primarily  of  a  military  nature. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Well,  you  might  make  some  special  provision  for 
a  longer  period  of  unemployment  insurance  or  take  a  slightly  greater 
amount  out  of  their  wages  than  you  are,  or  something  of  that  sort. 
But  I  should  think  that  rather  than  give  them  a  different  status  as 
workers,  which  is  hard  to  do  because  you  have  got  to  make  careful 
studies  to  give  them  a  different  status  as  workers,  if  you  should  differ- 
entiate for  their  unemployment  insurance. 

I  should  think  it  would  be  better  to  put  your  research  people  to 
work  on  what  the  future  is  going  to  hold  for  these  people,  do  you  see  ? 
I  would  put  the  money  and  the  thought  in  planning  for  the  future 
and  try  and  keep  everybody  in  the  country  on  the  same  basis  as 
workers,  because  I  think  the  minute  you  begin  to  differentiate  on  how 


0-756  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

much  and  how  lon^  the  unemployment  insurance  shall  be  paid,  it  is 
going  to  be  a  difficult  thing  to'  do  and  a  difficult  thing  to  make 
people  feel  that  it  is  fair  and  that  it  is  right. 

I  think  I  would  put  everything  we  have  into  trying  to  look  as 
far  as  we  can  into  the  future. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  That  is  all. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Curtis. 

ATTENTION  TO  LONG-RANGE  PROBLEMS 

Mr.  Curtis.  Mrs.  Eoosevelt,  you  have  been  very  kind  to  appear  here 
today  and  I  shall  not  detain  you  very  long.  1  do  have  this  question 
in  mind :  Do  you  feel  that  in  the  report  and  recommendations  of  this 
committee  attention  should  be  given  to  those  long-range  activities 
that  tend  to  stabilize  populations,  such  as  sound  water  conservation 
projects  in  drought  areas,  and  activities  of  that  kind? 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  Very  decidedly,  because  who  is  going  to  think 
about  the  long-range  problems  unless  you  do  ?  I  think  that  it  is  very 
important  that  you  take  the  long-range  point  of  view  and  that  you 
think  about  the  whole  as  far  into  the  future  as  possible. 

Mr.  Curtis.  In  other  words  our  task  is  not  to  arrive  in  some  man- 
ner merely  at  the  administering  of  relief  for  those  people  who  are 
victims  of  circumstances  at  this  time. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  No;  you  have  got  to  do  fundamental  thinking. 

Mr.  Curtis.  That  is  all. 

The  Chairman.  Mrs.  Roosevelt,  just  a  question  or  two.  In  re- 
sponse to  a  question  asked  you  by  Congressman  Sparkman  about  the 
$300  fee  to  join  the  union  before  they  can  get  a  position,  we  had  Mr. 
Shishkin,  of  the  American  Federation  of  Labor,  testify  here  the 
other  day  and  he  went  into  that  in  some  detail.  He  said  in  some 
isolated  instances  there  were  abuses  of  that  kind,  but  the  federation 
at  New  Orleans  at  their  national  convention  condemned  that.  As 
far  as  they  know  it  is  not  going  on  now.  I  state  that  just  for  the 
purpose  of  the  record. 

And  I  also  want  to  say  to  you,  Mrs.  Roosevelt,  that  we  are  ex- 
tremely grateful  to  you  for  coming.  I  want  to  say  also,  as  chairman 
of  this  committee,  that  as  this  problem  unfolds,  it  becomes  as  many- 
sided  as  the  causes  of  migrations,  and  therefore  there  is  no  single 
solution  to  it.  But  we  do  hope  with  the  assistance  of  witnesses  like 
yourself  to  better  the  condition  that  exists  at  the  present  time. 

We  thank  you  very  much  for  your  appearance  here  today. 

Mrs.  Roosevelt.  And  thank  you. 

The  Chairman.  The  next  witness  is  Mr.  Goodrich. 

TESTIMONY   OF  CARTER  GOODRICH,  PROFESSOR  OF  ECONOMICS, 
COLUMBIA  UNIVERSITY,  NEW  YORK,  N.  Y. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Goodrich,  will  you  please  give  your  name  and 
address  for  the  record,  and  the  capacity  in  which  you  are  appearing 
before  the  committee  today  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Mr.  Chairman,  my  name  is  Carter  Goodrich.  I  am 
professor  of  economics  at  Columbia  University. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3757 

For  the  last  4  years  I  have  represented  the  United  States  Govern- 
ment in  its  relation  with  the  International  Labor  Office,  first  at  Geneva 
and  now  at  Montreal.  And  last  year  I  was  elected  chairman  of  the 
governing  body  of  the  International  Labor  Office. 

My  connection  with  migration  problems  was  between  1934  and  1936 
when  I  acted  as  the  director  of  the  study  of  population  redistribution 
carried  on  under  the  auspices  of  the  Wharton  School  of  Finance  and 
Commerce  of  the  University  of  Pennsylvania. 

The  results  of  that  study' were  published  in  a  book  entitled  "Migra- 
tion and  Economic  Opportunities." 

The  Chairman.  Dr.  Goodrich,  you  have  presented  the  committee 
with  a  written  statement  for  the  record.  The  reporter  at  this  point 
will  incorporate  that  statement  in  the  record,  following  which  Mr. 
Osmers  will  interrogate  you. 

(The  statement  referred  to  is  as  follows :) 

STATEMENT  OF  CARTER  GOODRICH,  PROFESSOR  OF  ECONOMICS, 
COLUMBIA  UNIVERSITY 

Study  of  Population  Redistribution 

need  of  migration 

Migration  should  be  thought  of  as  a  useful,  and  indeed  indispensable,  method 
of  adaptation  to  changing  conditions.  Certainly  it  has  served  this  purpose  in  the 
American  past.  No  one  is  likely  to  doubt  that  the  United  States  is  on  the  whole 
richer  and  stronger  because  of  the  great  westward  movement  that  filled  our 
frontier  and  because  of  the  great  rural-urban  migration  that  built  our  cities.  We 
may  expect  similar  need  for  movements  of  people  in  the  future.  The  locations  of 
economic  opportunity  are  not  likely  to  remain  always  in  the  same  place.  Even 
if  they  were,  there  would  be  need  of  migration  to  correct  present  sectional  in- 
equalities and  to  maintain  a  running  adjustment  between  regions  of  high  and 
low  birth  rates.  This  is  particularly  true  because  of  the  very  striking  degree — 
brought  out  by  Dr.  Frank  Lorimer  in  one  of  your  early  hearings — to  which  the 
areas  in  which  per  capita  resources  are  the  most  meager  are  the  very  ones  in 
which  the  population  is  growing  most  rapidly  as  the  result  of  natural  increase. 

It  is  true  that  migration  is  a  process  which  involves  high  human  costs,  which 
should  wherever  possible  be  minimized.  Sometimes  migration  is  tragically  mis- 
directed— as  in  the  ill-fated  settlement  of  the  Dust  Bowl.  Sometimes  it  seems 
merely  aimless  and  hopeless — as  in  certain  cases  to  which  your  committee  has  had 
to  give  attention.  Yet  after  considering  similar  instances  of  misguided  population 
movement,  the  members  of  the  Study  of  Population  Redistribution  came  to  the 
considered  conclusion  that  an  even  more  serious  failure  of  migration,  over  a  long 
period,  had  been  its  failure  to  take  place  on  a  sufficiently  large  scale  "to  give 
adequate  relief  to  the  population  pressure  of  our  less  favored  areas."  Without 
very  considerable  migratory  movements  we  cannot  hope  to  redress  existing  regional 
inequalities  or  use  our  human  and  material  resources  to  the  best  advantage.  The 
mobility  of  the  American  people  has  been  an  economic  asset.  In  a  progressive 
country,  it  cannot  be  taken  as  the  aim  of'soeial  policy  to  make  sure  that  every 
man  may  live  his  whole  life  in  the  place  in  which  he  was  born. 

Our  study  did  not  attempt  to  indicate  how  many  migrants  could  be  absorbed 
in  a  given  year,  or  to  say  exactly  where  particular  groups  of  migrants  could 
be  absorbed.  I  am  sure  that  the  research  carried  on  under  your  direction  will 
have  pushed  further  on  these  points.  But  we  did  attempt  to  indicate  the 
general  directions  which  migration  would  have  to  follow  if  it  was  to  result  iu 
a  better  relationship  between  population  and  resources. 

REGIONAL    MIGRATION 

The  first  point  is  regional.  It  seemed  to  us  essential  that  there  should  con- 
tinue to  be  a  large  movement  of  population  from  the  Southeast.  Every  com- 
parison of  planes  of  living  shows  how  meagerly  the  inhabitants  of  the  southern 


oy^S  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Appalachians  and  of  the  entire  rural  Southeast  have  shared  in  the  economic 
opportunities  and  advantages  of  the  Nation's  life.  One  basic  reason  for  this 
is  the  denseness  of  an  agricultural  population  tilling  insufficient  and  deteriorat- 
ing land  in  the  face  of  declining  markets.  I  am  sure  that  progress  can  be 
made  in  improving  the  organization  of  rural  life  in  the  area,  and  that  such 
progress  is  being  made  under  the  T.  V.  A.  and  elsevphere.  It  seems  probable, 
also,  that  a  continued  increase  of  manufacturing  in  the  region  will  supply 
a  certain  amount  of  alternative  employment.  But  the  present  population 
pressure  is  so  great,  and  the  present  rate  of  natural  increase  so  rapid,  that 
the  region  appears  doomed  to  still  deeper  poverty  unless  it  can  find  substantial 
relief  by  migration.  The  population  increases  in  the  southeastern  States 
recorded  by  the  1940  census  indicate  that  an  already  alarming  problem  has 
become  even  more  serious. 

OCCUPATIONAL   SHIFTS 

The  second  point  is  occupational.  In  a  progressive  economy,  however  else 
the  problem  of  the  migrants  may  be  solved,  it  will  not  be  solved  by  a  net 
migration  into  agriculture.  Ever  since  modern  industrialism  began,  the  pro- 
portion of  the  total  manpower  devoted  to  agriculture  has  steadily  diminished, 
for  one  basic  reason  that  will  not  lose  its  force  unless  or  until  the  productive 
■efficiency  of  our  economic  system  as  a  whole  begins  to  decline.  As  the  total 
national  output  increases,  less  and  less  of  the  national  effort,  and  less  and 
less  of  the  consumer's  dollar,  need  to  go  into  the  raising  of  food,  and  more  and 
jnore  can  be  devoted  to  other  goods  and  services.  The  present  farm  popula- 
lation  of  the  United  States— much  of  it  already  underemployed— stands  ready 
to  produce  far  more  food  and  fiber  than  is  now  demanded  and  would  be  quite 
adequate,  if  agricultural  technique  continues  to  improve,  to  meet  any  increases 
in  demand  that  can  easily  be  imagined. 

The  traditional  movement  of  manpower  has  been  from  agriculture  to  manu- 
facture. In  recent  years,  however,  certain  branches  of  manufacturing  have 
themselves  come  into  the  same  position  as  agriculture,  with  an  inelastic  demand 
for  their  products  and  with  extraordinary  increases  in  output  per  worker. 
But  employment  has  continued  to  increase  in  the  range  of  occupations  devoted 
to  providing  the  great  variety  of  services  demanded  by  a  civilization  of 
growing  complexity.  The  limits  of  possible  demand  for  certain  manufactured 
goods  and  for  the  nonmaterial  services  are  far  more  flexible  than  the  demand 
for  the  products  of  the  soil.  It  is  in  these  fields  that  consumers  will  spend 
the  greater  part  of  any  income  increases  which  they  may  receive.  It  is  in 
these  fields  that  employment  will  grow,  or,  if  necessary,  must  be  made  to 
grow.  A  net  increase  of  farm  population  must  mean  either  the  further  lowering 
of  cash  incomes  already  far  too  low,  or  else  the  condemnation  of  large  groups 
of  people  to  the  so-called  "subsistence  economy"  without  the  means  of  pur- 
chasing the  amenities  of  an  advanced  civilization. 

SUnURBANIZATION    OF    INDUSTRY 

The  third  point  relates  to  the  type  of  communities.  We  considered  it 
necessary  to  sound  a  note  of  caution  against  the  belief  that  industrial  employ- 
ment could  easily  be  scattered  throughout  the  rural  areas  of  the  country. 
Analysis  of  the  locations  of  manufacturing  employment  over  the  past  30  or  40 
years  indicates  that  there  has  been  no  net  tendency  in  this  direction.  A  certain 
200  counties- — those  which  the  1029  Census  of  Manufactures  listed  as  of  greatest 
industrial  importance — contained  nearly  three-fourths  of  all  wage  jobs  in 
manufacturing  in  1899  and  contain  nearly  three-fourths  of  all  the  wage  jobs 
today.  The  share  of  the  rest  of  the  three-thousand-odd  counties  has  not  in- 
creased. But  meanwhile,  within  the  industrially  important  areas,  there  has 
been  a  marked  and  highly  significant  shift  of  factory  location  from  the  great 
cities  to  their  suburbs  and  to  other  areas  of  moderate  industrial  concentration. 
Our  analysis  led  us  to  the  belief  that  these  tendencies  were  likely  to  continue, 
that  there  would  probably  be  further  diffusion  and  suburbanization  of  industry 
in  existing  industrial  regions,  together  with  the  rise  of  a  limited  number  of 
new  industrial  centers,  but  not  a  diffusion  or  scattering  of  industries  over  the 
countryside.     It  seemed  to  us,  moreover,  that  this  process  of  suburbanization 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3759 

would  achieve  most  of  the  legitimate  advantages  claimed  for  decentralization 
without  incurring  its  most  serious  social  and  economic  costs.  "We  argued^ 
therefore,  that  the  chances  of  employment  were  likely  to  be  better  in  a  rela- 
tively small  number  of  urban  and  industrial  districts — and  particularly  in  their 
expanding  peripheries — than  in  remote  towns  or  in  rural  areas. 

This  analysis  was  made  before  attention  was  seriously  focused  on  the  relation 
between  industrial  location  and  vulnerability  to  military  attack.  What  modifica- 
tions this  may  require  in  the  pattern  of  location  I  do  not  know;  on  this  point, 
I  understand  you  have  taken  expert  testimony.  But  only  the  most  compelling 
reasons  could,"  in  my  judgment,  justify  the  scattering  of  industrial  plants  one 
by  one  in  remote  villages.  To  such  a  policy  there  are  three  cogent  objections. 
First,  few  plants  in  the  past  have  managed  to  survive  in  such  locations.  Second, 
if  such  a  plant  fails,  its  workers  are  left  in  a  worse  position  than  those  in  a 
developed  industrial  area  with  other  employment  opportunities.  Third,  even  if 
such  a  plant  succeeds,  there  is  the  danger  of  an  unhealthy  dependence  of  work- 
erg — economic,  social,  and  political— on  a  single  employer.  It  should  not  be  a 
function  of  the  United  States  Government  to  encourage  the  building  of  mere 
"company  towns." 

SUGGESTIONS  FOR  GOVERNMENT  ACTION 

If  this  general  viewpoint  is  accepted.  Government  policy  toward  migration 
should  be  guided  by  the  determination  to  preserve  and  encourage  mobility  but 
to  give  it  surer  purpose  and  direction  than  in  the  past.  At  certain  points  Gov- 
ernment action — by  such  devices  as  land  zoning  and  governmental  land  pur- 
chases— may  serve  to  prevent  the  recurrence  of  mistaken  types  of  settlement. 
The  United  States  Employment  Service  and  its  affiliated  State  services  must 
assume  increasing  responsibilities  for  facilitating  useful  shifts  of  population. 
Improvements  in  education  and  technical  training  are  needed  to  increase  the 
ability  of  prospective  migrants  to  adapt  themselves  to  new  opportunities,  and 
there  is  a  strong  case  for  Federal  aid  to  education  in  the  regions  of  meager  income 
and  high  birth  rate.  Subsidies  designed  to  keep  people  in  areas  which  cannot 
decently  support  them  run  counter  to  sound  migration  policy ;  but  subsidies  de- 
signed to  fit  the  young  people  of  such  areas  for  more  useful  service  elsewhere 
would.  I  believe,  be  a  well-placed  national  investment.  In  these  and  perhaps 
other  ways.  Government  action  can  facilitate  an  orderly  mobility,  but  it  must 
be  clear  that  migration  policy  alone  cannot  guarantee  full  employment  nor  the 
indispensable  increase  in  nonagricultural  employment. 

PLAN  FOR  REEMPLOYMENT  AFTE21  CESSATION  OF  DEFENSE  ACTIVITIES 

In  the  face  of  stubborn,  long-continued,  large-scale  industrial  unemployment, 
there  has  been  a  temptation  to  accept  the  return  to  a  subsistence  agriculture 
as  the  only  outlet  for  what  api)eared  to  be  large  volumes  of  unwanted  manpower. 
A  mean  living  on  poor  land  is  better  than  no  job  at  all  if  these  are  the  only 
choices.  But  except  as  a  purely  temporary  expedient,  this  could  be  justified  only 
on  the  defeatist  assumption  that  we  are  incapable  of  organizing  our  economic 
life  to  provide  expanding  opportunity.  At  the  moment,  with  employment  rising 
and  due  to  rise  with  the  developing  defense  program,  no  one  is  likely  to  urge 
the  condemning  of  more  of  our  fellow  citizens  to  the  subsistence  alternative. 
Indeed,  if  the  demands  on  us  grow  as  they  well  may,  we  should  not  dare  to 
do  without  their  contribution  to  the  national  effort.  At  the  end  of  the  emergency, 
however,  the  issue  will  arise  again.  It  is  none  too  early  to  begin  planning  for 
the  reemployment  of  those  who  will  no  longer  be  needed  in  the  work  of  national 
defense.  To  accept  the  doctrine  that  our  full  manpower  cannot  then  be  used 
in  the  tasks  of  peace,  in  the  raising  of  the  American  standard  of  living,  would 
be  a  confession  of  national  defeat. 

TESTIMONY  OF  CARTER  GOODRICH— Resumed 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Professor  Goodrich,  I  notice  from  your  statement 
that  you  deal  primarily  with  population  problems.     I  notice,  too, 


^760  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

that  contrary  to  many  of  the  witnesses  we  have  had,  you  do  not 
regard  migration  as  such  a  bad  thing  for  tlie  country. 

MIGRATION  -RELIEVES  POPULATION  PRESSURE 

Mr.  Goodrich.  That  is  so,  Mr.  Congressman.  I  think  that  migra- 
tion must  be  thought  of  as  a  useful  method  of  adjusting  population 
to  resources. 

I  am  speaking  there  not  of  seasonal  migration,  but  I  speak  of 
migration  primarily,  migration  with  the  view  to  more  pernianent 
settlement.  It  seems  to  me  that  has  been  a  most  useful  thing  in  the 
American  past.  It  settled  our  frontiers.  It  built  our  cities,  and  I 
believe  that  it  is  essential  to  think  of  migration,  in  spite  of  its  many 
costs,  as  a  useful  method  of  social  adjustment. 

There  is  no  reason  to  believe  that  economic  opportunities  will 
remain  in  precisely  the  same  places  in  the  future  as  they  have  in 
the  past. 

Moreover,  even  if  they  did  so  remain,  the  population  movem.ent 
would  be  needed  to  correct  the  shocking  inequalities  between  one 
region  and  another  where  migration  would  be  needed  to  make  up 
for  the  differences  in  the  birth  rate  between  one  section  and  another. 

And  that  argument  I  think  is  particularly  strong  for  the  reasons 
that  Congressman  Sparkman  brought  out  a  short  time  ago,  that  the 
very  regions  where  the  population  pressure  is  the  greatest  and  where 
people  are  having  the  hardest  time  under  the  most  meager  resources, 
are  the  very  regions  in  which  the  population  is  growing  most  rapidly 
hj  natural  increase. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Would  you  care  to  give  the  committee  some  estimate 
of  the  number  of  people  that  should  come  out  of  the  southeastern 
States  in  order  to  make  that  area  a  little  bit  more  self-supporting 
than  it  is  or  a  little  better  off  economically  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Well,  the  maximum  figures  to  bring  it  toward  a 
state  of  equality,  approaching  equality  with  the  standards  of  living 
in  the  other  parts  of  the  country,  would  be  so  big  I  hardly  dare  give 
them,  but  certainly  it  should  run  into  several  hundred  thousands  from 
the  southern  Appalachian  region  and  the  figure  would  run  into  mil- 
lions for  the  eastern  part  of  the  Cotton  Belt. 

Mr.  OsMERs.  Would  you  say.  Professor,  that  the  need  for  migra- 
tion from  that  area  would  continue  because  of  the  excessive  birth 
rate  as  compared  to  the  rest  of  the  United  States  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes. 

CONTINUE  FARM   TO  CITT   MIGRATION 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Now,  it  is  also  your  opinion  that  because  of  the  con- 
•dition  in  agriculture  there  should  be  a  continuance  of  the  farm  to 
•city  migration? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  I  think  that  will  have  to  be  so  as  a  long-run  trend. 
'Otherwise  I  think  it  means  that  the  agricultural  populations  will  be 
pi-essed  still  further  below  the  industrial  population.  Many  of  our 
iellow  citizens  will  be  condemned  to  live  on  the  very  meager  level 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3761 

of  subsistence  agriculture — what  one  of  your  earlier  witnesses  called 
"the  people  barely  living  on  half  rations  extracted  from  a  small 
parcel  of  poor  land." 

I  think  that  is  the  danger. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  don't  recall  the  exact  wording  of  the  statement,  but 
when  I  read  it  this  morning  you  said  something  in  there  to  the  eifect 
that  a  man  would  be  better  off  unemployed  in  a  city  than  he  would 
be  on  a  subsistence  farm.     Is  that  what  you  said? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  No.  If  those  are  the  alternatives — if  those  are  the 
only  alternatives — then  the  meager  living  on  poor  land  is  better  than 
that.     But  I  don't  think  we  have  to  take  that  as  the  national  standard. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  hope  not.  What  is  your  opinion  of  industrial 
decentralization  ? 

CAUTION  AGAINST  INDUSTRIAL  DECENTRALIZATION 

Mr.  Goodrich.  I  feel  that  there  must  be  a  great  deal  of  caution  used 
regarding  any  attempts  to  scatter  industry  widely  into  the  remote 
rural  regions. 

I  believe  that  a  considerable  degree  of  decentralization  toward 
suburban  areas,  a  good  deal  of  movement  of  industry  from  the  very 
large  cities  to  areas  of  somewhat  moderate  industrial  concentration, 
is  likely  to  continue  as  it  has  been,  and  likely  to  be,  on  the  whole, 
desirable  and  healthy. 

I  doubt  if  the  scattering  of  industry  widely  over  the  countryside  is 
possible  and  I  doubt  if  it  is  desirable  if  it  could  be  done.  My  reason 
for  doubting  the  possibilities  is  the  experience  and  the  analysis  of 
the  figures  of  the  last  40  years  or  so.  They  show  that  within  that 
time  a  certain  200  counties,  which  are  those  which  the  Census  of 
Manufactures  in  1929  counted  as  the  important  industrial  areas  and 
important  industrial  counties,  had  almost  three-quarters  of  all  the 
wage  jobs  in  manufacturing  in  the  country  in  1899,  and  they  have 
almost  precisely  the  same  percentage  of  wage  jobs  in  the  United  States 
at  this  time. 

There  has  been  a  significant  movement  within  that  from  the  cities 
to  the  suburbs  and  I  think  that  movement  may  well  continue. 

I  think  that  some  new  industrial  centers  may  well  arise  as  some  new 
centers  have  arisen  over  the  last  30  or  40  years,  but  I  doubt  if  it  is 
practical  to  scatter  industry  bit  by  bit  all  up  and  down  the  length  and 
breadth  of  the  other  3,000  counties. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  want  to  come  back  to  that  in  a  minute  or  two.  But 
do  you  expect  that  we  will  have  full  employment  if  the  defense  pro- 
gram continues  for  another  year  and  a  half  or  2  years  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  I  think  we  shall  come  much  closer  to  full  employ- 
ment than  we  have  been  for  a  long  time.  That  is  one  reason  Avhy  I 
think  it  is  easier  to  be  more  emphatic  in  arguing  that  migration  is 
a  useful  process  now  than  it  was  4  years  ago,  before  this  arose. 

I  think  that  4  years  ago  there  was  much  more  -temptation  to  say 
we  can't  make  use  of  the  people  and  you  had  better  go  back  even  to 
poor  land,  if  that  is  the  only  alternative,  and  get  along  somehow. 

Now,  I  think,  we  don't  have  to  say  that  to  people  and  I  don't  think 
we  dare  say  it  in  view  of  the  national  need  that  will  come. 


3yQ2  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

IMPORTANT  TO  PLAN  FOR  POST-DEFENSE  ECONOMY 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Now,  after  this  defense  program,  do  you  anticipate 
a  great  immediate  increase  in  migration  and  unemployment? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  I  anticipate  very  great  danger  for  just  the  reasons 
you  suggest,  unless  very  careful  planning  is  done  about  it, 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Now,  I  want  to  go  back  to  what  we  were  talking  about 
before — the  decentralization  of  plants. 

Don't  you  feel  that  if  we  have  these  plants  spread  all  over  the 
country  and  the  entire  economy  of  certain  areas  based  upon  defense 
plants,  we  are  likely  to  have  a  more  serious  dislocation  than  if  these 
plants  are  operating  in  normal  industrial  areas  that  also  have  peace- 
time industries  there? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  I  think  there  is  a  great  danger  if  the  defense  plants 
are  not  put,  as  far  as  practicable,  in  regions  for  which  there  is  hope 
of  continuance  in  peacetime. 

Now,  there  may  be  needs  for  changes  for  tactical  reasons  about 
which  I  know  nothing,  but  1  think  there  is  great  danger  if  the  de- 
fense plants  are  not  put  in  regions  that  look  like  regions  of  normal 
peacetime  growth. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  You  recommend  that  we  should  now  plan  for  the 
arrival  of  the  dove  of  peace.  I  wonder  what  plans  you  have  in 
mind  that  could  be  made. 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Well,  there  are  two  things.  First,  I  agree  with 
what  I  understand  to  have  been  the  recommendation  of  Dr.  Lubin 
yesterday,  that  a  dismissal  wage,  a  kind  of  amortization  for  the 
workers  in  specifically  defense  industries,  would  be  a  useful  thing. 

I  agree  with  Mrs.  Roosevelt  that  that  is  the  smaller  part  of  the 
program.    I  think  it  is  extremely  important  that 

Mr.  OsMERS.  That,  after  all,  would  be  only  a  temporary  ameliora- 
tion of  the  situation  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Exactly.  It  might  be  useful,  but  it  is  only  a  matter 
of  tiding  the  people  over. 

Mr.  OsMERs.  Six  months  instead  of  two  months? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes;  but  it  doesn't  solve  the  question  of  where 
they  are  to  go  afterwards.  I  am  sure  the  solution  is  not  one  of 
sending  them  back  to  starve  on  the  bad  lands.  So  I  think.it  is  ex- 
tremely important  that  there  should  be  planning  under  way  regard- 
ing the  reemployment  possibilities  of  those  people  at  that  time. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  As  I  remember  Mr.  Lubin's  testimony  yesterday,  he 
also  said  tliat  Ave  should  not  abandon  all  of  our  peacetime  industries 
in  the  great  rush  to  get  aboard  the  defense  band  wagon,  so  that 
we  would  have  at  least  a  skeleton  of  ]:)eacetime  industry  when  the 
defense  program  is  over.    Do  you  share  that  view? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes;  I  think  that  is  true  and  I  think  we  also  need 
to  have  plans  possibly  in  the  housing  field  and  in  other  public-works 
fields  to  be  ready  for  that  time. 

I  think  that  is  the  long  planning  job.  I  quite  agree  that  people 
should  get  at  it  soon. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  What  sort  of  a  body  would  you  recommend  or  what 
present  existing  agency  would  you  recommend  to  assume  the  re- 
sponsibilities of  that  planning  job? 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3763 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Well,  that  is  an  administrative  question  which  I 
don't  feel  particularly  competent  to  answer. 

Certainly  the  Department  of  Labor  should  be  in  it.  Certainly  the 
Defense  Commission  should  be  in  it.  1  don't  know  about  this,  but 
I  feel  they  should,  and  I  feel  the  Social  Security  Administration 
should  be  in  it.  I  don't  know  that  I  am  of  any  particular  use 
in  suggesting  the  form  that  such  a  body  might  take. 

Mr.  OsMEiJS.  Well,  would  you  say  that  we  could  use  a  body  such 
as  the  National  Resources  Planning  Board? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Very  admirably,  I  should  think.  I  have  one  other 
suggestion  to  add  there,  that  on  certain  of  the  international  aspects 
of  the  problem  you  would  do  well  to  call  on  the  International  Labor 
Office  for  a  study  of  the  problem  as  it  is  hitting  other  countries. 

That  we  should  have  a  right  to  do  as  members. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  have  tried  from  various  witnesses,  without  a  great 
deal  of  success,  to  get  their  opinions  on  tlie  effect  of  world-wide  un- 
employment upon  our  own  economy  when  peace  comes. 

Now,  I  am  presuming  that  our  economy  will  not  be  as  badly  dis- 
jointed as  others  throughout  the  world,  but  I  can  see  our  foreign 
markets  slipping  away  from  us  when  these  millions  put  down  their 
arms  and  cease  working  in  arms  plants  and  start  producing  peacetime 
merchandise. 

Let  us  take  the  Latin-American  market,  for  instance,  which  we 
speak  of  a  great  deal  today.  I  think  the  European  nations,  both  the 
victor  and  the  vanquished,  will  lower  their  standards  of  living  in  order 
to  get  those  markets  and  the  materials  they  can  get  in  exchange  for 
their  goods. 

Mr.  Goodrich.  I  think  that  is  a  very  serious  danger  and  I  think  it 
indicates  we  shall  need  to  take  some  part  in  the  economic  reconstruc- 
tion of  the  world,  partly  to  prevent  just  that  extreme  lowering  of 
standards  with  its  consequences. 

Mr.  OsMEKS.  I  am  not  as  much  impressed  as  many  seem  to  be  with 
the  present  trade  we  are  doing  with  Latin  America  because  about 
three-quarters  of  the  civilized  world,  aside  from  ourselves,  is  engaged 
in  war.  But  I  would  like  to  know  where  that  Latin-American  trade 
is  going  to  go  after  the  war  is  over.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  our  posi- 
tion there  will  be  seriously  endangered  in  an  economic  way  regardless 
of  the  outcome  of  the  war? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  I  think  there  is  danger  there;  but  I  am  in  no  sense 
an  expert  on  South  American  relations. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  can  visualize  that  situation.  In  fact  we  saw  it  when 
some  of  these  foreign  nations  were  pre])aring  for  war.  We  had  dem- 
onstrations of  the  barter  system  and  other  means  that  they  used  to  get 
business. 

That  is  all. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Parsons. 

LIMIT  and  regulate  ECONOMY  IN  INFLATED  PERIOD 

Mr.  Parsons.  Mr.  Chairman  and  Professor  Goodrich,  our  hindsiglit. 
of  course,  is  always  much  better  than  our  foresight.    However,  have 


260370— 41— pt.  9- 


3764 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


you  thought  of  what  might  have  been  the  difference  in  onr  economy  if, 
"diirino;  the  World  War,  or  during  the  prosperous  days  of  the  twenties 
when  we  had  a  fairly  even  keel  of  employment  and  production,  we  had 
had  social  security  and  many  of  the  things  we  have  acquired  in  the  last 
5  or  6  years.  If  they  had  been  in  effect  during  the  other  war  or  during 
the  prosperous  days  of  the  tw^enties,  what  would  have  been  the  differ- 
ence in  the  condition  of  the  country  during  the  years  of  depression  ? 

Wliat  would  have  been  the  difference  in  the  relief  and  economic 
problem  if  we  had  had  such  measures  as  we  have  adopted  in  the  last 
5  years  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Well,  even  on  hindsight  I  should  not  think  I  could 
answer  that  completely,  but  I  think  the  situation  would  have  been 
easier  in  very  important  respects.  The  relief  needs  would  not  have 
come  so  suddenly  if  there  had  been  unemployment  insurance  to  cushion 
it ;  not  so  many  people  would  have  had  to  go  to  the  areas  which  per- 
haps were  their  only  possible  hide-outs  during  the  depression. 

So  whether  the  more  even  flow  of  income  resulting  from  unemplov- 
ment-insurance  payments  would  have  cushioned  the  shock  of  the  de- 
pression or  lessened  the  shock  of  the  depression  very  materially,  I  am 
not  so  sure. 

It  certainly  would  have  helped  somewhat,  and  would  have  made 
it  possible  to  come  to  the  relief  program  in  a  more  orderly  way 
and  with  much  less  human  suffering. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  want  to  make  another  predication.  We  are  plan- 
ning on  this  defense  program  and  we  are  hoping  that  we  will  never 
be  involved  in  this  w^ar,  and  I  cannot  see  any  reason  right  now  whv 
we  should  be.  But,  if  we  should  become  involved,  I  think  with 
our  experience  in  the  other  war  and  in  the  last  10  years,  that  Gov- 
ernment will  never  permit  the  sk^^rocketing  of  prices  and  greatly 
inflated  values  that  was  permitted  in  the  other  war. 

Now,  if  that  had  been  prohibited  before  perhaps  we  never  would 
have  had  the  plains  plowed  up  in  the  Dust  Bowl  for  the  production 
of  wheat.  We  would  have  saved  the  soil  that  has  blown  away  in 
the  past  several  years.  We  would  also  have  saved  the  great  in- 
vestment sky-rocketing  that  finally  culminated  in  our  downfall.  And 
that  is  what  we  are  planning  to  do.  That  is  the  reason  we  are 
holding  these  prices  down  now. 

If  it  were  not  for  the  proper  regulations  that  we  have,  prices 
would  probably  be  twice  as  high  as  they  are  at  the  present  time. 

Do  you  think  that  is  a  good  economic  thing  to  do — to  limit  or 
regulate  our  economy  in  inflated  times  like,  this  so  that  there  will 
not  be  such  a  repercussion  after  that  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes,  sir;  very  decidedly.  And  I  think  it  is  true 
that  measures  of  that  sort  in  the  other  war  might  have  prevented 
much  of  the  mishandling  of  an  area  like  the  Great  Plains. 

I  think  also  the  Government  is  doing  some  things  directly  which 
are  useful  in  preventing  a  misguided  settlement  such  as  the  settle- 
ment of  the  Dust  Bowl  by  the  Government  repurchase  of  lands 
which  are  unfit  for  agriculture,  and  by  measures  such  as  the  county 
zoning  that  started  in  Wisconsin  and  spread  elsewhere.  I  think  there 
are  some  useful  things  that  the  Government  can  do  directly  to  stop 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3765 

unfortunate  migration  and  misguided  migration  like  that  in  the 
Dust  Bowl.  But  I  quite  agree  it  is  important,  and  highly  important, 
to  prevent  the  runaway  prices  which  had  the  consequences  that  you 
have  just  brought  out. 

Mr.  Parsons.  The  question  has  arisen  many  times  before  this 
committee  and  with  committee  members  of  a  long-range  planning 
program.  We  have  been  attacking  that  problem  for  several  years 
now.  If  we  had  the  foresight  20  or  25  years  ago,  or  even  15  years  ago, 
to  have  started  a  long-range  planning  program,  we  could  have  cush- 
ioned the  depression.  Perhaps  it  never  would  have  come,  because 
when  we  started  the  reduction  in  Federal  taxes,  making  it  retro- 
active year  after  year  during  the  twenties,  that  money  came  back 
to  the  large  bondholders  who  used  it  principally  for  the  stock- 
market  manipulation  which  greatly  inflated  those  values,  sometimes 
400  and  500  percent,  and  on  an  average  of  over  200  percent,  when 
the  real  values  were  not  there.  Those  inflated  values  fell  and  cul- 
minated in  a  great  crash  which  wiped  everybody's  savings  out. 

Now,  we  want  to  prevent  that  in  the  future,  and  we  think  we  are 
on  the  right  track  with  a  long-range  planning  program.  But  many 
of  those  who  are  critical  of  what  we  are  doing  now  are  those  who 
had  the  responsibility  of  Government  planning  then  and  failed  to 
fict,  isn't  that  right? 

Mr.  Go  >DRicH.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Cliairman. 

FEDERAL   AID   FOR   COSTS   OF   EDUCATION 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Dr.  Goodrich,  I  have  read  your  statement  with 
much  interest.  There  is  one  thing  that  naturally  caught  my  eye. 
If  I  may,  I  will  read  the  portion  that  I  refer  to : 

Improvements  in  education  and  technical  training  are  needed  to  increase 
the  ability  of  prospective  migrants  to  adapt  themselves  to  new  opportunities, 
and  there  is  a  strong  case  fcr  Federal  aid  to  education  in  the  regions  of 
meager  income  and  high  birth  rate.  Subsidies  designed  to  keep  people  in 
areas  which  cannot  decently  support  them  run  counter  to  sound  migration 
policy ;  but  subsidies  designed  to  fit  the  young  people  of  such  areas  for  more 
useful  service  elsewhere  would,  I  believe,  be  a  well-placed  national  investment. 

Now,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  in  the  areas  of  high  birth  rate,  there 
is  a  surplus  of  population  that  must  keep  moving  out.  Therefore 
the  burden  is  placed  upon  those  particular  States  and  regions  to  edu- 
€ate  those  people  to  fit  them  for  the  economic  place  they  might  find 
in  another  region.  If  those  States  are  so  heavily  burdened  to  edu- 
cate those  children  that  are  going  to  become  producers  for  other 
areas,  do  you  think  it  is  reasonable  to  require  those  same  areas  to 
match  dollar  for  dollar  Federal  funds  that  are  given  for  various 
subsidies  such  as  you  mentioned? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Well,  I  think  that  the  Federal  Government  should 
take  responsibility  for  its  part  of  the  cost  of  education  in  these 
areas.  I  am  not  so  sure  about  other  subsidies  because  I  am  doubt- 
ful about  subsidies  which,  as  I  said  there,  are  designed  to  hold  people 
in  an  area.  But  I  am  very  strongly  in  favor  of  subsidies  in  the  field 
of  education.     I  think  that  it  is  right  that  the  Nation  as  a  whole 


3766  INTERSTATE  MIGRATIOM 

should  bear  the  cost  or  part  of  the  cost  of  the  education  of  these 
people,  many  of  whom  are  certainly  not  going  to  live  in  the  very 
heavily  burdened  States  which  are  bringing  them  up  and  trying 
their  best  to  educate  them. 

I  think  there  again,  from  the  point  of  view  of  the  State  to  which 
they  are  going  to  go,  it  is  a  disadvantage  to  the  States  which  receive 
these  people  to  receive  ill-trained  people.  So  I  think  there  is  a 
case  even  aside  from  our  national  feeling  in  the  matter — I  think 
there  is  a  strong  case  from  the  practical  point  of  view  in  the  States 
that  are  likely  to  receive  migrants  in  having  prospective  migrants 
better  trained. 

I  feel  very  strongly  that  that  is  a  field  in  which  Federal  assistance 
to  the  areas  you  speak  of  is  entirely  justified. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  As  someone  suggested  in  the  hearing  in  New  York, 
if  he  bought  mules  from  one  of  our  States,  he  paid  the  owner  of  those 
mules  for  bringing  them  up,  but  when  our  boys  and  girls  came  up 
there  he  paid  nothing  for  the  education  of  those  boys  and  girls. 

Mr.  Goodrich.  That  puts  the  point  better  than  I  did,  but  it  is 
my  point. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  Doctor,  I  understand  you  want  to  get  away  at 
12 :  20  and  I  will  keep  faith  with  you.  But  I  want  to  say  to  you 
that  while  traveling  around  the  country  and  in  conference  with 
newspaper  representatives,  about  the  first  question  they  ask  is: 
"Well,  Congressman,  what  is  the  solution  for  all  this  anyway?" 

The  point  I  want  to  bring  out,  and  I  think  you  will  agree  with 
me,  is  that  this  migration  of  destitute  citizens  from  one  State  to 
another  involves,  and  probably  includes,  every  economic  dislocation 
we  have  in  the  country,  isn't  that  so  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Absolutely. 

The  Chairman.  Now,  the  causes  of  migration  are  worn-out  soil, 
mechanization,  unemployment.  There  is  no  single  solution  for  any 
of  those  things.  But  what  I  would  like  to  bring  out  is  that  we 
seemingly  or  surely  could  do  better  than  we  are  doing  now  or  have 
done  in  the  past,  don't  you  think? 

increase  facilities  for  dissemination  or  information 

Mr.  Goodrich.  I  think  we  can  do  much  better.  One  simple  thing 
we  can  do,  which  I  think  was  brought  out  in  the  remarks  this  morn- 
ing, is  to  increase  the  amount  of  information  which  is  put  at  the 
disposal  of  possible  migrants. 

I  think  that  calls  for  a  much  greater  responsibility  being  placed 
upon  the  United  States  Employment  Service  and  its  State  affiliations 
than  has  heretofore  been  the  case. 

It  should  be  made  possible  for  those  agencies  to  do  very  much  more 
than  they  have  been  able  to  do  in  the  past.  They  have  done  as  well 
as  they  can.  But  if  it  could  be  arranged  for  it  to  do  more  in  the 
future  by  spreading  correct  information  about  opportunities  for  mi- 
grants that  might  serve  to  cut  off  misguided,  merely  aimless  migra- 
tion. It  would  also  serve  to  direct  migration  to  the  places  where  the 
migrants  are  likely  to  be  needed. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3767 

The  Charman.  In  other  words,  we  should  be  able  to  obtam  a  better 
informed  and  more  reasonably  controlled  migration  than  we  have 
now. 

Mr.  GooDKiCH.  I  agree  completely. 

The  Chairman.  We  will  have  your  prepared  statement  inserted 
in  full  in  the  record.  Mr.  Reporter,  you  will  insert  Dr.  Goodrich's 
statement  at  this  point  in  the  record. 

We  just  want  to  thank  you.  Dr.  Goodrich,  very  sincerely  for  ap- 
pearing here  today.  Your  statement  is  a  very  valuable  contribution 
to  us. 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Congressman.  It  has  been  a  great 
privilege  to  appear  before  the  committee. 

The  Chairman.  The  hearing  will  rtcess  until  2  o'clock. 

(Whereupon,  at  12  :15  p.  m.  the  hearing  recessed  until  2  p.  m.  of 
the  same  day.) 

after  recess 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  please  come  to  order. 
Dr.  Schmidt  will  be  the  first  witness. 

TESTIMONY  OF  GAEL  T.  SCHMIDT,  PROFESSOR  OF  ECONOMICS  OF 
COLUMBIA  UNIVERSITY 

The  Chairman.  Dr.  Schmidt,  will  you  give  your  full  name  and 
address  to  the  reporter  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Carl  T.  Schmidt,  1900  H  Street,  Washington,  D.  C. 

The  Chairman.  And  in  what  capacity  do  you  appear  here,  Doctor — 
that  is,  you  are  a  professor  of  economics,  are  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir;  I  am  lecturing  in  economics  at  Columbia 
University,  but  at  the  present  time  am  on  leave. 

The  Chairman.  You  have  filed  a  written  statement,  and  that,  will 
appear  in  the  record  at  this  point. 

(The  written  statement  is  as  follows :) 

STATEMENT  OF  CARL  T.  SCHMIDT,  LECTURER  IN  ECONOMICS  OF 
COLUMBIA  UNIVERSITY 

Changes  in  American  Agkicultuke  and  Some  of  the  Results 

For  50  years  American  agricultiu'e  has  been  drifting  away  from  tlie  ideal  of  the 
family  farm.  In  broad  perspective,  we  can  see  that  our  farmers  have  been  drawn 
into  the  vortex  of  industrialism.  They  too  share  the  insecurities  brought  to  our 
society  by  the  machine. 

It  was  the  cotton,  the  wheat,  and  the  corn,  produced  at  low  cost  on  the  virtually 
free  and  highly  fertile  lands  of  America  that  in  the  nineteenth  century  provided 
the  people  of  western  Europe  with  cheap  food  and  clothing  and  helped  them  to 
turn  from  farming  to  manufacturing.  Moreover,  our  agricultural  exports  enabled 
us  to  import  much  of  the  capital  on  which  our  own  urban  industrialism  was  built. 
And  when  this  job  was  done,  American  farmers  were  left  stranded  in  an  uncertain 
world.  Their  preeminence  in  foreign  markets  has  vanished,  and  the  application 
of  machines  to  agriculture  has  made  needless  the  work  of  many  farmers  in  supply- 
ing our  own  requirements.  At  the  same  time,  industrialism  has  been  unable  to  use 
all  its  own  great  capacities.  This  has  meant  urban  poverty  and  unemployment 
which  in  turn  have  brought  poverty  and  disguised  iinemployment  to  the  farms. 
As  we  near  the  middle  of  the  twentieth  century,  we  find  that  millions  of  farm 
workers  have  no  more  material  security  than  the  poorest  of  city  people.  Our  farm 
problems  are  basically  the  problems  of  an  industrial  society  that  has  not  yet 
learned  to  use  its  resources  wisely  and  humanely. 


3768  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

THE  AGRICtTLTUEAL.  DILEMMA 

Why  have  so  many  of  our  farm  people  been  sinking  into  an  economic  and  social 
morass?  Why  has  agriculture,  as  a  way  of  life  and  as  a  business,  been  less  and 
less  inviting  during  the  last  20  years?  Why,  despite  all  the  costly  farm-relief 
efforts,  does  the  long-run  prospect  for  great  numbers  of  our  staple-crop  farmers 
still  seem  so  unpromising?  No  complete  answer  can  be  given  in  brief  compass, 
but  it  is  possible  to  point  to  a  number  of  basic  forces  that  have  been  making  for  a 
decline  of  American  agriculture.  The  great  depression  after  1929  certainly  does 
not  offer  us  the  examination — it  merely  increased  the  pressure  of  forces  already  at 
work  long  before  1929.  Indeed,  they  continue  to  underlie  the  course  of  agricul- 
ture even  now,  after  a  decade  of  far-flung  efforts  by  our  Federal  Government  to 
solve  the  farmer's  problems. 

CAUSES  OF  AGRICULTURAL  DECLINE 

Put  most  simply,  American  staple  agriculture  has  been  declining  because  our 
farm  plant  was  built  up  to  supply  not  only  our  domestic  needs  but  also  great 
foreign  markets.  The  foreign  demand  has  shrunk  seriously  since  the  World  War, 
and  domestic  markets  have  stagnated.  Hence  lower  prices  for  the  goods  that  our 
farmers  have  gone  on  offering  in  such  abundance.  And  these  prices  have  not 
given  farmers  enough  income  to  meet  production  costs  and  to  buy  the  thinks  they 
need  and  want.  (Possibly  if  they  were  ready  to  let  their  living  standards  sink  we 
would  hear  less  about  agricultural  depression.)  Well,  couldn't  they  produce  less? 
Perhaps,  but  that  would  leave  many  farmers  unemployed  or  dependent  on  public 
aid.  And  the  more  some  farmers  adjust  themselves  to  the  changed  situation — 
reducing  costs  by  means  of  business  methods  and  machine  production,  and  also 
just  by  pulling  in  their  belts,  the  harder  is  the  going  for  other  farmers.  Left  to 
themselves,  the  natural  forces  would  gradually  squeeze  labor  and  land  out  of 
agricultural  enterprise.  Perhaps  this  would  not  be  too  bad  if  men  could  be  used 
at  good  wages  in  urban  industry.  But  there  they  would  also  be  unemployed  today. 
Hence  the  dilemma  is  idtiniatcly  one  of  our  whole  economy,  not  merely  of  agri- 
culture. We  might  just  as  well  let  the  natural  forces  of  floods  drown  the  unlucky 
people  who  happen  to  be  in  the  way  of  the  waters  as  to  let  the  natural  forces  of 
economics  drive  our  rural  people  into  po^'erty  and  hopelessness. 

More  specifically,  we  may  summarize  the  difficulties  of  our  commercial,  staple- 
crop  agriculture  as  follows : 

LOWER  PRICE  MARKET  FOR  FARM  PRODUCTS 

For  one  thing,  most  farm  enterprise  is  a  small-scale,  highly  competitive  pursuit. 
But  it  is  caught  in  a  web  of  big  business.  Our  billion  acres  of  agricultural 
land  are  split  up  among  nearly  7,000,000  separate  farms.  And  most  of  these  farms 
are  relatively  small,  single-family  holdings.  Even  the  great  cotton  plantation  or 
wheat  ranch  is  not  big  by  comparison  with  the  typical  steel  mill  or  automobile 
factory.  Except  in  a  few  areas,  genuinely  large-scale  and  corporate  farming 
in  the  United  States  is  still  unimportant.  Nor  has  it  yet  proved  itself  decisively 
more  efficient  than  small-scale  farming.  The  point  is  that  because  of  the  fiercely 
competitive  nature  of  his  own  business,  the  ordinary  farmer  has  no  control  over 
the  prices  of  his  commodities.  He  produces  as  much  as  he  can,  and  sells  for  what- 
ever he  gets. 

The  situation  is  very  different  for  most  of  those  who  buy  from  or  sell  to  the 
farmer.  In  their  case,  efficiency  demands  large-scale  operation,  and  this  in  turn 
means  fewer  firms  in  each  market  and  therefore  increased  managerial  control  over 
prices.  Thus  when  the  farmer  sells  his  wheat,  or  tobacco,  or  milk,  or  when  he 
ships  his  goods  by  rail,  he  is  confronted  by  big  business.  Again,  he  runs  into  big 
business  when  he  buys  fertilizer,  or  a  tractor,  or  a  refrigerator,  or  when  he  bor- 
rows money.  In  1934,  for  example,  3  big  tobacco  manufacturers  bought  46  percent 
of  the  total  tobacco  crop  in  this  country,  13  flour  millers  purchased  65  percent  of 
tlie  commercial  wheat  crop,  3  meat  packers  bought  41  percent  of  the  marketed 
cattle  and  25  percent  of  the  hogs,  2  milk  distributors  bought  13  iiercent  of  the 
commercial  milk.  Thus,  quite  apart  from  the  possibility  of  deliberate  monopo- 
listic price  rigging  by  business,  the  farmer  is  likely  to  be  in  a  weak  bargaining 
position  both  as  seller  and  buyer.     Here  is  one  reason  why  th'^e  prices  he  re- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3769 

ceives  are  so  much  less  certain  than  the  prices  he  pays.  It  helps  to  explain  the 
low  purchasing  power  of  the  farmer.  And  it  is  also  a  reason  why,  when  his 
prices  slip  downward,  the  individual  farmer  finds  that  he  must  go  right  on  pro- 
ducing as  much  as  ever,  perhaps  even  more.  Without  machinery  to  eliminate  cut- 
throat competition  and  to  adjust  producticm  to  changing  market  conditions,  the 
American  farmer  is  penalized  by  being  an  old-style  oiierator  in  a  streamlined 
world  of  big  busines.s. 

EBB  OF  FOREaON   MARKET 

Secondly,  since  the  end  of  the  World  War  the  farmer  has  seen  his  foreign 
market  ebb  away.  Following  the  repeal  of  the  English  corn  laws  in  1846  and 
the  advent  of  cheap  transportation,  exports  of  agricultural  products  from  the 
United  States  rose  steadily.  The  rapid  growth  of  industrial  population  abroad 
greatly  enlarged  the  market  for  low-priced  American  foodstuli"s  and  cotton.  For 
half  a  century  these  increased  European  requirements  were  largely  supplied  by 
the  expanding  tillage  of  the  vast  Mississippi  Basin.  But  with  the  disappearance 
of  cheap  fertile  lands  in  the  United  States,  the  American  farmer  began  to  lose  his 
superiority  in  the  world  market.  Wheat  and  livestock  producers  in  other  areas 
with  great  reserves  of  fertile  land — such  as  Canada,  Argentina,  Australia — were 
able,  because  of  lower  costs,  to  undersell  the  American  products.  Even  cotton, 
long  a  virtual  American  monopoly  and  our  most  important  agricultural  export, 
has  not  escaped  the  competition  of  other  lands.  Our  tobacco,  fruits,  and  other 
farm  commodities  are  being  squeezed  out  of  world  markets  by  the  stiff  competition 
of  products  that  have  the  advantage  of  lower  production  costs  or  preferential 
treatment  by  various  governments.  In  broad  persijective,  this  tendency  is  to  be 
seen  as  a  concomitant  of  America's  industrialization,  its  decreased  dependence 
on  foreign  capital  and  manufactured  goods,  its  growing  ability  to  export  industrial 
goods. 

DECI.INE  IN   POPUKATION  RATE 

Thirdly,  changes  in  domestic  demand — gradual,  but  nevertheless  potent — have 
tended  to  constrict  profitable  markets  for  many  farmers.  In  former  times  they 
could  look  to  our  rapidly  growing  population  to  take  their  surpluses.  Now  the 
persistent  decline  in  the  rate  of  population  growth  eliminates  one  important 
buttress  of  our  agriculture.  Indeed,  if,  as  appears  likely,  the  birth  rate  continues 
to  fall  and  immigration  remains  small,  the  population  will  cease  growing  before 
many  years.  Eventually  there  may  even  be  fewer  mouths  to  feed  and  backs  to 
clothe.  Dietary  changes,  too — especially  shifts  from  beef  and  cereals  to  milk, 
sugar,  fruits,  and  vegetables — have  already  impaired  the  markets  for  commodities 
important  to  great  numbers  of  farmers.  Moreover,  producers  of  hay  and  grain 
have  been  hard  hit  during  the  last  quarter  of  a  century  by  the  widespread  substi- 
tution of  tractors  and  automobiles  for  horses  and  mules. 

MECHANIZATION 

Fourthly,  the  increasing  mechanization  of  agriculture  has  intensified  the 
problems  of  farm  operators  and  their  hired  workers.  During  the  course  of  the 
past  hundred  years,  millions  of  new  farms — supported  by  the  liberal  land,  immi- 
gration, and  transportation  policies  of  a  solicitious  Government — came  into  exist- 
ence. But  this  development  was  more  than  an  increase  in  the  number  of  farmers 
and  of  acres  cultivated.  For  it  was  accompanied,  and  indeed  to  a  large  degree 
made  possible,  by  a  remarkable  rise  in  th^  efficiency  of  agricultural  enterprise — 
resulting  from  the  application  of  science  to  the  arts  of  the  husbandman.  Here, 
again,  the  Government  has  been  a  prime  agent,  for  it  constantly  increased  the 
scope  of  its  agricultural  research  and  its  efforts  to  provide  farmers  with  up-to-the- 
minute  information.  The  work  of  the  Federal  Government  has  been  supple- 
mented by  the  State  departments  of  agriculture  and  farm  societies  and  journals. 
Always  in  the  foreground  has  been  the  idea  of  "bigger  and  better"  farm  produc- 
tion. Urged  on  by  these  agencies  and  by  the  growing  cost  of  farm  labor,  the  desire 
to  lessen  the  burden  of  hard  work,  the  hope  of  profit,  the  American  farmer  has 
turned  increasingly  to  mechanization,  to  scientific  breeding  and  feeding,  to  more 
business-like  methods  of  management.  By  1929  the  average  farmer  and  farm 
laborer  produced  150  percent  more  than  he  did  in  1870,  and  37  percent  more  than 


3770 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


in  191)9.  The  agricultural  output  in  1929  was  27  percent  bigger  than  in  1909,  yet 
it  was  produced  by  7.5  percent  fewer  persons.  Far  fewer  hired  laborers  are  now 
needed  in  the  western  wheat  regions  than  20  or  30  years  ago,  and  the  corn 
harvester  lias  x-educed  the  number  required  in  the  Corn  Belt.  Plowing,  planting, 
fertilizing,  cultivating — all  are  being  mechanized.  And  the  all-purpose  tractor  is 
eliminating  countless  back-breaking  chores.  In  the  jiast,  labor  released  from  agri- 
culture by  the  machine  could  find  employment  in  urban  industry.  Today  that 
outlet  is  closed,  and  who  knows  when  it  will  again  be  open  The  tractor  and  other 
machines  will  one  day  greatly  curtail  the  need  for  workers  in  the  cotton  fields. 
What  then  will  become  of  thousands  on  thousands  of  southern  farm  folk? 

From  the  standpoint  of  potential  farm  production,  the  results  of  these  devel- 
opments are  even  more  remarkable.  In  1929,  half  our  farmers  produced  89  per- 
cent of  the  total  commercial  output  of  American  agriculture.  No  doubt  these 
farmers  could  easily  produce  the  remaining  11  percent  if  prices  offered  them 
only  a  little  encouragement.  That  is,  the  less  productive  half  of  our  farmers 
are  not  needed  to  feed  and  clothe  the  nonfarm  people — at  least,  on  present 
levels  of  consumption.  Instead  of  population  pressing  on  the  means  of  sub- 
sistence, as  Thomas  Malthus  prophesied,  agriculture  is  now  pressing  on  popula- 
tion. Mechanization  has  changed  the  whole  technical  basis  of  farming,  making 
millions  of  small  farms  obsolete  and  incapable  of  competing  on  any  "reasonable" 
basis  with  more  efficient  farms.  Yet  so  long  as  the  less  productive  farmer's 
cash  income  barely  covers  his  out-of-pocket  expenses,  he  finds  it  better  to  go 
on  producing  than  to  stop  altogether.  By  pulling  in  his  belt,  lowering  the  living 
standards  of  his  family,  and  neglecting  the  long-run  needs  of  his  farm  he  can 
continue  to  compete — on  a  cutthroat  basis — with  technically  superior  farms. 

In  terms  of  human  needs,  however,  it  is  not  at  all  evident  that  our  agricul- 
tural productive  plant  is  excessive.  For  demand  has  been  seriously  restricted 
by  the  low  purchasing  power  of  much  of  our  population.  In  19;)5,  some  12  000  roo 
families — 42  percent  of  all  families  in  the  country — received  less  than  $1,000 
income.  Tet  they  bought  only  26  percent  of  all  the  food  sold  in  that  year. 
Four  million  of  these  low-income  families  spent  only  about  a  dollar  a  week  per 
person  for  food,  or  about  5  cents  for  each  meal.  Certainly,  increasing  tliese 
people's  incomes  would  do  much  to  ease  the  farmer's  troubles.  According  to 
Milo  Perkins,  "If  all  families  getting  less  than  $100  per  month  had  been  able 
overnight  to  increase  their  incomes  to  that  level  *  *  *  this  would  have 
meant  an  increase  in  expenditures  for  food  of  approximately  1.9  billion  dol- 
lars. The  expenditures  of  these  people  would  have  been  increased  by  51  per- 
cent. The  national  food  bill,  not  counting  purchases  by  single  individuals, 
would  have  been  increased  14  percent,  and  the  health  of  the  low-income  people 
would  have  been  very  much  improved.  Farmers  would  have  received  nearly 
$1,000,000,000  more  in  income.  The  extra  demand  certainly  would  have  im- 
proved farm  prices  and  farm  income  by  a  large  additional  amount."  ^  How  to 
raise  our  national  income  and  to  distribute  more  of  it  to  our  less  fortunate 
people — this  is  the  great  internal  economic  problem  of  our  times.  The  advance 
of  agricultural  technology  would  be  much  more  rapid  if  urban  employment  and 
purchasing  power  were  increased.  For  then  many  people  now  on  farms  would 
move  to  towns  and  cities,  and  commercial  outlets  for  agricultural  products 
would  expand.  On  the  other  hand,  if  employment  opportunities  in  industry 
remain  meager,  the  abundance  and  low  costs  of  farm  labor  are  likely  to  retard 
the  mechanization  of  agriculture.  Continued  long  enough,  such  a  situation 
would  make  for  more  self-sufficient  farming.  We  must  note,  too,  that  the  dif- 
ficulty of  most  farmers  in  acquiring  more  land,  the  absence  of  alternative  in- 
come opportunities  for  those  farm  owners  who  find  the  going  hard  and  who 
wish  to  sell,  the  uncertain  prospects  for  new  capital  in  many  agricultural 
fields,  are  forces  that  hold  back  what  might  otherwise  be  a  very  rapid  drift 
to  new  forms  of  agriculture. 

LARGE-SCAIE   FARMING    MUST   INCKE.\SE 

It  is  probable,  however,  that  efficient  farms,  whether  operated  by  individual 
families  or  by  hired  managers  and  workers,  must  become  bigger  than  they 
Iiave  been  in  the  past — bigger  in  acreage  and  numbers  of  livestock,  or  in  yield 

'  Speech  at  Des  Moines,  February  24,  1940. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3771 

per  acre  and  per  mau,  or  both.  The  new  techuology  seems  to  make  this  inevi- 
table. Very  large-scale  methods  and  huge  areas  under  single  management  may 
become  essential  for  extensive  crop  production,  especially  vphen  much  of  the 
work  can  be  reduced  to  a  routine,  whereas  family -operated  farms  of  relatively 
small  acreage  may  be  most  effective  for  intensive,  less  standardized  agriculture. 
In  either  case,  however,  the  amount  of  capital  needed  per  worker  must  be 
greater  than  formerly. 

The  constant  pressure  of  agricultural  supplies  on  demand  Is,  then,  a  further 
basic  reason  for  the  economic  weakness  of  our  farmers.  Technological  achieve- 
ments have  made  available  a  potential  source  of  additional  quantities  of  agri- 
cultural products  that,  in  the  absence  of  control,  must  flood  the  markets  when- 
ever prices  remain  for  any  length  of  time  on  even  a  modestly  attractive  level. 

Yet,  in  the  opinion  of  many  authorities,  farm  mechanization  is  as  yet  only 
in  its  infancy.  Unless  tremendous  outlets  for  farm  commodities  can  be  discov- 
ered, then  millions  of  our  farmers  must  leave  the  land  or  be  subsidized  by  the 
Government  or  be  doomed  to  chronic  poverty.  Even  those  who  believe  that 
we  have  far  too  many  farmers  must  hesitate  to  advocate  a  wholesale  shift  of 
rural  people  to  towns  and  cities,  for  that  would  merely  result  in  still  more 
outright  unemployment.  Perhaps  the  possibilities  of  cityward  migi-ation  will 
improve,  but  how  soon  and  how  rapidly  no  one  knows. 

KUIlAL  POVERTY  DANGEI!  TO  NATION 

Finally,  it  is  obvious  that  the  extremes  of  rural  distress  are  not  to  be  ex- 
plained solely  by  market  conditions,  by  the  movement  of  farm  prices  and  costs. 
After  all,  many  of  the  poorest  farm  people  produce  very  little  for  market.  Behind 
their  troubles  lie  broader  social  and  physical  factors.  Almost  a  million  farm 
families  live  on  farms  that  are  so  small,  or  on  lands  so  poor,  that  they  cannot 
make  a  satisfactory  living.  In  the  Cotton  Belt  poverty  is  bred  by  the  tenant 
and  cropper  systems,  high  birth  rates,  class  cleavages,  and  racial  prejudices.  In. 
the  Appalachian  area,  about  40  percent  of  the  farms  are  less  than  50  acres  in 
size,  and  cultivation  is  generally  restricted  by  the  rough  and  sterile  land.  Here,, 
also,  illiteracy  and  high  birth  rates  make  for  poor  living.  But  such  impoverished 
fai-mers  are  by  no  means  contined  to  the  deep  South  and  the  southern  highlands. 
There  are  also  wretchedly  poor  farm  people  in  the  fertile  Midwest,  the  dry  wheat 
regions,  the  Southwest,  the  Lake  States,  Florida,  and  the  Pacific  Northwest.  And 
some  of  the  most  abject  people  in  the  world  live  in  the  shadows  of  California's 
magnificent  mountains  and  forests. 

Clearly,  rural  poverty  is  a  danger  not  only  to  farm  people  but  also  to  everyone 
in  the  Nation.  We  can  appreciate  what  is  at  stake  when  we  recall  that  the 
birth  rate  is  highest  in  the  very  areas  where  rural  living  conditions  are  worst. 
According  to  O.  E.  Baker,  1,000  farm  people  will  have  3  to  7  times  as  many- 
descendants  a  century  hence  as  1,000  people  living  in  our  large  cities.  Most 
Americans  a  hundi'ed  years  from  now  will  be  the  offspring  of  the  rural  people 
of  today.  Here,  surely,  is  the  highest  justification  for  a  national  policy  designed 
to  wipe  out  rural  slums  and  raise  the  living  levels  of  our  farm  families.  Unles& 
the  conditions  that  produce  rural  insecurity  are  attacked  and  overcome,  not 
only  will  much  of  our  present  generation  be  condemned  to  lives  of  destitution; 
but  also  a  large  proportion  of  the  Americans  of  the  future  will  be  reared  against 
a  background  of  material  and  spiritual  poverty.  The  farm  must  be  not  only  a 
place  where  cotton  and  wheat  and  corn  are  grown.  It  must  also  he  a  producer  of 
men,  of  good  citizens. 

It  is  the  fashion  nowadays  to  talk  about  menaces  to  democracy.  Yet  it  is  no 
idle  rhetoric  to  say  that  the  problems  of  farmers  are  of  vital  importance  in  the 
building  of  our  citizenship  and  of  our  democratic  institutions.  For  democracy 
means  more  than  political  formulas.  It  can  live  only  if  it  is  brought  down  to  the 
earth  of  common  men,  giving  them  security  and  a  vital  part  in  the  affairs  of 
political  and  industrial  government.  The  men  with  little  or  no  hope  of  jobs 
in  our  cities,  and  the  depressed  and  virtually  unemployed  men  of  our  country- 
side— all  are  a  menace  to  democracy.  Our  people — and  we  are  speaking  now  of 
those  who  have  caught  some  glimpses  of  the  American  dream,  not  merely  of  those 
who  have  been  congenitally  impoverished— will  not  always  submit  to  the  condi- 
tions from  which  they  have  been  suffering.     If  they  come  to  realize  that  the 


3772  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

dream  of  a  democracy  which  promises  security  and  good  living  is  but  an  idle 
phantasy,  then  they  may  well  turn  to  other  gospels — gospels  that  will  destroy 
democratic  ways  of  life  even  though  they  may  not  bring  well-being. 


CURP.ENT  FARM  POLICY 

When  Mr.  Roosevelt  and  Mr.  Wallace  entered  office  in  1933,  American  agricul- 
ture was  prostrate.  The  first  Agricultural  Adjustment  Adniinistration  program 
was  intended  to  inject  new  life  into  it.  The  Agricultural  Adjustment  Admin- 
istration thesis  was  that  farm  prices  and  incomes  could  be  pushed  up  only  if 
supplies  were  curtailed  so  as  to  meet  a  greatly  reduced  demand  at  home  and 
abroad.  Cotton,  wheat,  corn-hogs,  and  tobacco  received  most  of  the  administra- 
tion's attention.  Coercive  penalty  taxes  forced  the  cotton  and  tobacco  producers 
to  comply  with  programs  for  the  curtailment  of  production.  Drought  made 
such  steps  unnecessary  for  wheat  and  corn.  Cooperating  farmers  were  rewarded 
with  benefit  payments.  These  were  financed  out  of  processing  taxes,  the  burden 
of  which  was  mainly  borne  by  consumers.  Such  measures,  together  with  a 
severe  drought,  which  drastically  cut  wheat  and  corn  production  in  1934,  and 
industrial  recovery  pushed  farmers'  prices  and  incomes  upward. 

Early  in  1936  the  Supreme  Court  outlawed  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Admin- 
istration crop-reduction  program.  Congress  adopted  a  soil-conservation  act,  which 
aimed  at  I'educing  commercial  crop  acreage  in  a  roundabout  way.  That  is,  farm- 
ers were  paid  to  fight  erosion  by  shifting  land  from  the  staple  crops  to  soil- 
building  crops,  and  also  by  adopting  other  conservation  practices.  Incidentally, 
the  soil-conservation  efl:orts  of  the  New  Deal  have  done  much  to  save  our  land 
from  further  damage.  Another  drought  in  1936  and  continued  industrial  revival 
kept  prices  and  many  farm  incomes  relatively  high.  But  in  1937  unusually  good 
weather  and  more  efficient  farm  techniques  resulted  in  bumper  crops.  The 
cotton  harvest  of  19,000,000  bales  was  a  record  breaker.  This  and  a  recession 
in  industry  sent  prices  tumbling.  Farmers  demanded  new  help  from  the  Gov- 
ernment. 

EVER-NORMAL    GRANARY   PLAN 

The  result  was  that  Congress  passed  the  second  adjustment  act.  This  set  up 
Mr.  Wallace's  ever-normal  granary,  which  gives  farmers  loans  and  stores  their 
surpluses  in  bumper-crop  years.  The  intention  is  to  release  the  stored  crops  in 
short  years.  Thus  it  is  hoped  to  prevent  disastrous  price  declines  in  times  of 
high  yield  and  consumer-gouging  prices  in  seasons  of  crop  failure.  Soil-conserva- 
tion payments  continue  to  be  made  to  farmers  who  restrict  production  to  specified 
acreages.  When  the  surplus  of  a  given  crop  threatens  to  become  too  large, 
farmers  vote  on  compulsory  marketing  quotas.  If  their  vote  is  favorable,  the 
sales  of  all  growers  are  limited.  These  quotas  have  been  applied  to  cotton  and 
tobacco  in  the  past  3  years.  Also  the  Government  has  made  extensive  loans  to 
cotton,  corn,  and  wheat  farmers.  As  a  result,  it  now  holds  more  than  10,000,000 
bales  of  cotton  and  456,000,000  bushels  of  corn. 

These  Agricultural  Adustment  Administration  programs  have  been  aimed  pri- 
marily at  the  commercial  farmers — those  whose  fortunes  depend  upon  price  rela- 
tionships in  the  markets.  Much  less  publicity  has  been  given  the  Government's 
efforts  in  other  but  no  less  important  fields. 

FABM  CREDIT  ADMINISTRATION 

For  one  thing,  the  Farm  Credit  Administration  provides  farmers  with  both 
long-term  and  short-term  credit  at  low  interest  rates.  Hundreds  of  thousands  of 
farm  mortgages  have  been  refinanced  and  so  made  more  bearable  for  the  debtors. 
Today  the  Farm  Credit  Administration  holds  40  percent  of  the  total  mortgage 
debt,  and  private  lenders  feel  that  Government  competition  is  driving  them  from 
the  field.  But  to  millions  of  farm  ijeople  whose  homes  were  saved  this  has  been 
the  most  important  New  Deal  measure. 

Throughout  our  history,  as  Mr.  Wallace  has  remarked,  the  Federal  Government 
has  been  mainly  concerned  with  the  top  third  of  our  farmers.  It  is  to  the  ever- 
lasting credit  of  the  Roosevelt  administration  that  it  has  turned  the  attention  of 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3773 

Government  at  last  to  the  widespread  poverty  of  our  less  fortunate  farmers  and 
that  it  has  taken  steps  to  help  them.  During  the  depression  2,000,000  farm 
families  received  some  form  of  relief.  This  brought  home  to  economists,  sociolo- 
gists, and  public  officials  the  extent  and  nature  of  rural  poverty.  They  began  to 
see  that  millions  of  farmers  are  little  affected  by  the  ups  and  downs  of  the  great 
commercial  markets.  Their  troubles  are  poor  land,  bad  tenancy  conditions, 
dwarf  holdings,  a  vicious  credit  system,  ignorance,  and  malnutrition. 

FARM    SE3CURITY   ADMINISTRATION 

The  Government  has  gradually  built  up  an  extensive,  though  still  far  from 
adequate  program  for  aiding  the  low-income  farmers.  Through  the  Farm  Secur- 
ity Administration  more  than  1,000,000  farm  families  have  received  small  loans 
and  grants  that  enable  them  to  buy  needed  equipment— seed,  fertilizer,  clothing, 
and  food— and  so  put  them  on  their  feet  again.  Along  with  the  loans  goes  expert 
advice  on  farm  management.  The  great  majority  of  those  aided  have  greatly 
improved  their  conditions.  .  .  ,     ,.~, 

The  Farm  Security  Administration  is  also  experimenting  with  different  types 
of  farm  organization,  including  complete  agricultural  cooperatives  that  break 
sharply  with  the  traditional  American  concept  of  the  independent  family  farm. 
Some  help  is  being  given  to  migrants  by  providing  them  witli  camps.  A  tenant- 
purchase  program  is  now  enabling  some  13,000  tenants  and  laborers  to  buy  their 
own  farms  with  the  aid  of  long-time  Government  loans,  and  9,000  more  will  be 
helped  in  the  same  way  next  year.  ,     •      -f     ^fP^^f 

The  Farm  Security  Administration  has  done  much  good  work  in  its  ettort 
to  aid  low-income  farmers  and  tenants.  The  emphasis  has  been  on  subsistence 
farming  in  order  to  minimize  the  possibility  that  the  rehabilitated  farmers 
will  add  to  the  already  excessive  agricultural  supplies.  Nevertheless,  the  need 
for  at  least  some  cash  obliges  them  to  produce  for  the  market  to  some  extent. 
There  is  a  danger  that  people  on  such  subsistence  farms  will  become  part-time 
industrial  workers  in  factories  that  have  fled  to  small  towns  and  are  looking 
for  docile,  low-priced  labor.  In  any  case,  subsistence  farming  tends  toward 
a  living  standard  that  is  rather  low  at  best. 

Perhaps  this  cannot  be  helped  so  long  as  many  more  people  are  engaged 
in  agriculture  than  are  needed  for  commercial  production  at  present  levels 
of  demand.  And  the  excess  farm  population  cannot  now  be  used  at  good 
wages  in  industry,  though  an  armaments  boom  can  provide  a  partial  remedy 
for  a  time.  The  long-run  solution,  as  Mr.  Wallace  has  suggested,  may  be  to 
raise  consumption  of  farm  products  by  increasing  the  national  income.  Obvi- 
ously, the  dilemma  is  one  of  our  whole  economy,  not  merely  of  agriculture. 

FEDERAL  SURPLUS   COMMODITIES    CORPORATION 

Urban  relief  is  joined  to  farm  relief  by  the  Federal  Surplus  Commodities 
Corporation,  which  has  bought  billions  of  ix)unds  of  excess  agricultural  com- 
modities for  distribution  to  millions  of  unemployed  people  in  the  towns  and 
cities.  The  food-stamp  plan  is  the  latest  and  most  popular  phase  of  this  pro- 
gram. Tlius,  a  start  has  been  made  to  bridge  the  gap  between  farm  surpluses 
and  human  wants. 

The  expenditures  for  agricultural  adjustment,  conservation,  and  farm  relief 
from  1932  to  the  end  of  the  present  fiscal  year  will  reach  a  total  of  $7,000,000,000. 
(This  includes  loans  by  the  Farm  Security  Administration,  some  of  which  will 
eventually  be  recovered.)     And  the  outlays  have  tended  to  rise  year  by  year. 

INCREASE    AND    MAINTENANCE    OF    FARM    INCOME    SINCE    1932 

What  of  the  results?  Gross  farm  income  almost  doubled  between  1932  and 
1937,  going  from  $5,500,000,000  to  $10,600,000,000.  During  the  last  2  years  it 
has  hovered  about  the  $10,000,000,000  mark.  When  allowance  is  made  for 
changes  in  the  prices  of  goods  bought  by  farmers,  we  find  that  agricultural 
real  income  has  risen  throughout  the  Roosevelt  administration.  In  the  past 
3  years  it  has  about  equalled  the  levels  of  the  late  1920's.  Of  course,  the 
farm  population  is  bigger  than  it  was  10  years  ago,  which  means  that  the  real 


3774 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


income  per  capita  is  somewliat  smaller.  Government  payments  to  farmers 
have  played  an  increasingly  important  role  in  tbis  rise.  But  the  net  effect 
is  the  same — improvement  in  farm  conditions. 

Various  types  of  farmers  and  different  agricultural  regions  did  not  share 
equally  in  these  gains.  The  incomes  of  farmers  who  entered  the  Agricultural 
Adjustment  Administration  programs  increased  more  than  did  the  returns 
of  those  who  stayed  outside  and  took  their  chances  on  benefiting  merely  from 
increased  prices.  Highly  organized  fruit  and  truck  fanners  on  the  Pacific 
coast  and  elsewhere  gained  considerably  from  marketing  agreements,  as  did 
dairymen  in  important  urban  milksheds.  Other  fruit,  vegetable,  and  dairy 
farrners  have  had  smaller  benefits. 

In  a  broad  sense,  the  whole  agricultural  policy  of  the  New  Deal  appears 
to  have  been  aimed  at  suspending  the  operation  of  natural  forces  on  American 
agriculture.  These  forces,  in  general,  have  been  tending  to  push  people  out 
of  agriculture.  It  might  well  appear  that  the  farmers  who  would  go  first 
are  those  who  have  failed  in  the  competitive  struggle,  and  that  those  remain- 
ing in  agriculture  are  the  more  eflicient  farmers.  If  this  were  true,  then 
the  New  Deal's  policy — by  counteracting  such  a  tendency — has  retarded  the 
rise  of  agricultural  eflSciency.  However,  so  long  as  nonfarming  opportunities 
for  rural  people  are  meager,  this  would  at  least  be  a  choice  of  the  lesser  of 
two  evils. 

Moreover,  the  meaning  of  efficiency  in  agriculture — as  in  other  fields — is  by 
no  means  definite.  Pecuniary  criteria  no  doubt  would  demand  the  weeding-out 
of  many  family  farmers.  But,  as  we  have  observed  in  an  earlier  chapter, 
pecuniary  efficiency  is  not  necessarily  consonant  with  the  greatest  social  well- 
being.  Many  family  farms  may  not  produce  goods  so  cheaply,  on  a  doUars- 
and-cents  basis,  as  do  other  types  of  farm  enterprise.  Yet  they  may  be  vastly 
more  important  to  preserve  if  they  can  produce  good  citizens.  The  relationship 
between  agi"icultural  policy  and  the  general  welfare  deserves  more  attention 
than  has  been  given  it. 

AGRICULTITRAL     AD.JUSTMENT     ADMINISTRATION     BENEFIT     PAYMENTS     TO     COMMERCIAL 
FARMERS    AND    CORPORATIONS 

Inasmuch  as  the  adjustment  programs  have  dealt  mainly  with  problems  of 
commercial  agriculture,  their  income  contributions  flowed  primarily  to  the 
upper  half  of  our  farmers^ — that  is,  to  the  farmers  who  produce  the  great  bulk 
of  all  agricultural  products  sent  to  market.  Their  situation  has  been  greatly 
improved  since  1932.  Even  in  the  period  of  general  recession  during  1937-38, 
governmental  action  tended  to  protect  these  farmers.  And  certain  commercial 
producers,  notably  sugar  growers,  have  been  supported  despite  their  relatively 
high  production  costs.  They  have  been  able  to  expand  output  at  a  time  wiien 
other  farmers  have  had  to  curtail  acreage  and  production. 

Very  large  benefits,  too,  were  paid  to  corporations  interested  in  farming. 
Payments  of  $10,000  or  more  were  made  under  348  contracts  in  1933,  and 
564  in  1934.  Some  94  producers  in  1937,  and  113  in  1938,  each  received  over 
$10,000  as  soil-consei-vatlon  benefits.  Most  of  these  payments  went  to  life 
insurance  companies  and  banks  that  had  become  large  owners  of  farms  through 
mortgage  foreclosures.  The  Metropolitan  Life  Insurance  Co.  alone  was  paid 
$257,095  for  complying  with  the  1937  program.  It  may  be  that  these  large 
operators  were  not  particularly  in  need  of  farm  relief,  yet  their  participation 
was  necessary  if  the  programs  were  to  be  made  effective.  Here  again,  com- 
plaint can  be  aimed  less  properly  at  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administra- 
tion than  at  our  economic  organization. 

It  is  hardly  surprising  that  such  handouts  to  corporate  farmers  were  sharply 
criticized,  despite  the  fact  that  the  great  bulk  of  the  Agricultural  Adjustment 
Administration  benefits  went  to  family-operated  farms.  Congress  responded 
in  1938  by  prohibiting  the  payment  of  more  than  $10,000  to  any  one  person  or 
corporation.  It  is  reported  that  few  corporations  have  ceased  to  participate  in 
the  farm  program  because  of  this  restriction.  In  some  cases,  however,  it 
seems  to  place  inequitable  burdens  on  large  agricultural  enterprises. 

As  a  result  of  coercive  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  programs, 
some  large,  low-cost  commercial  farmers  perhaps  have  been  hampered  in  ex- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3775 

panding.  Many  farmers,  indeed,  have  found  themselves  coerced  by  economic 
weapons  into  modifying  tlieir  management  so  as  to  fit  into  a  larger  scheme. 
This  may  have  been  a  severe  loss  to  those  who  value  their  liberty  as  "free  and 
independent"  producers.  But  the  cash  compensations  seem  to  have  made  most 
farmers  willing  to  forego  this  liberty,  or  so  the  large  majorities  favoring  the 
program  under  most  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  referenda  would 
suggest.  For  cotton  farmers,  the  impact  of  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Ad- 
ministration on  their  exports  may  yet  prove  to  be  decisive  in  their  economic 
decline.  But  again,  from  the  short-run  point  of  view,  these  ixtteutial  losses 
were  offset  by  immediate  gains. 

EFFECTS   OF  AGBICULTUBAL   ADJUSTMENT   ADMINISTRATION   PROGRAM   ON   TENANTS  AND 

I,ABOREI!S 

Many  share-tenants,  croppers,  and  farm  laborers  have  benefited  little  from 
the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration.  Indeed,  many  have  lost  employ- 
ment and  incomes  as  a  direct  result  of  crop  curtailment. 

Reduction  of  crops  under  the  adjustment  programs  meant  that  fewer  man- 
hours  were  needed  in  their  production.  On  an  owner-operated  farm,  the 
general  result  was  that  the  farmer  and  his  family  had  more  time  available 
for  other  purposes  without  having  their  income  reduced.  But  on  tenant  farms 
and  on  farms  with  hired  workers,  inequities  in  sharing  the  reductions  in 
labor  time  and  the  benefit  payments  could  easily  arise.  This  was  especially 
probable  in  the  South,  because  of  its  sharp  social  cleavages  and  the  complexi- 
ties of  its  landlord-tenant  relationships. 

The  need  for  labor  on  cotton  farms  and  plantations  has  decreased  in  recent 
years,  and  this  has  popularly  been  attributed  to  the  Agricultural  Adjustment 
Administration.  Studies  sponsored  by  the  Administration  report  that  the  early 
cotton  programs  had  little  responsibility  for  the  disiilacement  of  tenants  and 
sharecropix-rs,  at  least.  On  other  hand,  the  Southern  Tenant  Farmers'  Union 
asserts  that  the  adjustment  programs  have  been  the  primary  influence  in  the 
removal  of  at  least  500,000  tenant  families  from  the  hmd  during  the  past  decade. 
This  estimate  is  perhaps  exaggerated,  but  there  is  no  denying  the  displacement 
of  large  numbers  of  farm  tenants  and  laborers.  And  there  is  no  doubt  that  many 
have  been  penalized  by  the  adjustment  schemes.  Paul  S.  Taylor,  an  authority 
on  migratory  agricultural  labor,  reports  that  in  1934-35  the  number  of  tractors  in 
some  of  the'most  productive  parts  of  the  Cotton  Belt  doubled,  and  that  this  was 
made  possible  in  large  measure  by  the  ca.sh  paid  to  landlords  by  the  Government. 
He  points  out : 

"The  old  system  based  on  tenant  and  cropi^er  families  on  small,  family-sized 
farms  is  in  process  of  profound  transformation.  In  its  place  is  appearing  an 
industrialized  form  of  agriculture  employing  wage  laborers.  *  *  *  On  the 
]and!-:cape  are  the  marks  of  farms  growing  bigger  and  fewer,  abandoned  houses 
and  rural  depopulation,  tenant  farmers  reduced  to  the  status  of  wage  labcn-ers 
thrown  on  relief  and  scattered  to  other  districts.  Landlords  clash  with  their 
tenants  over  the  crop-adjustment  checks,  though  not  openly  or  in  organized 
fashion.  The  landlords  force  tenants  off  the  place,  then  use  the  increased  cash 
income  resulting  from  the  agricultural-adjustment  programs  *  *  *  as  pay- 
ments on  tractor.^.     *     *     *" 

Professor  Taylor's  study  deals  with  the  western  Cotton  Belt,  which  is  likely 
to  produce  an  increasing  proportion  of  our  total  cotton  output  in  the  future.  In 
the  Old  South  it  is  probable  that  the  displacement  of  tenants  has  been  much  less 
severe. 

In  justice  to  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration,  we  should  note  that 
it  has  long  been  common  practice  among  landlords  to  shift  their  workers  frcmi 
cropper  to  wage-labor  status  and  back  again,  as  the  cotton  production  cost  and 
price  outlook  have  fluctuated.  In  general,  and  at  given  wage  rates,  a  landlord 
finds  it  increasingly  worthwhile  to  use  wage-labor  as  the  price  of  cotton  rises. 
Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  acreage  control,  loans,  and  benefit  pay- 
ments have  tended  to  advance  the  price,  and  so  have  contributed  to  the  shift  from 
sharecroppers  to  wage-workers.  Furthermore,  many  rural  workers  probably 
have  preferred  Work  Projects  Administration  relief  to  laboring  in  the  fields  at 
Jow  wages. 


onna.  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

DISPLACEMENT  BY  MECHANIZATION 

A  ereat  deal  of  the  displacement  of  tenants,  croppers,  and  laborers  has  resulted 
not  directly  from  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  acreage  curtailment 
but  from  mechanization.  To  be  sure,  technological  changes  in  cotton  cultivation 
have  been  accelerated  by  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration,  not  only 
to  the  extent  that  it  has  given  cotton  planters  cash  with  which  to  buy  machinery, 
but  also  because  the  substitution  of  machines  for  tenants  and  croppers  enables 
the  landlords  to  double  their  share  of  the  Government  subsidy.  Thus  a  farm- 
machineiT  dealer  in  the  South  can  well  say  that  the  Agr  cultural  Adjustment 
Administration  has  been  "God's  gift  to  the  tractor  people."  But  it  is  probable 
that  this  would  have  taken  place  even  if  the  adjustment  programs  had  not 

"  CONFLICTS  BETWEEN  LANDLORDS  AND  TENANTS 

The  Adjustment  Administration  has  also  been  criticized  sharply  for  alleged 
unfairness  in  the  distribution  of  benefit  payments  among  landlords  and  tenants 
of  the  South  Elsewhere  in  the  country  both  landlord  and  tenant  signed  each  con- 
tract and  apparently  there  was  little  conflict  over  the  division  of  benefits. 
Under  the  cotton  plow-up  in  1933,  the  Administration  intended  that  its  payments 
should  be  shared  in  accordance  with  the  interests  that  landlord  and  tenant  had 
in  the  crop.  But  in  1934-35  the  payments  were  considered  to  be  largely  rent  for 
land  taken  out  of  cultivation,  and  croppers  and  noumanaging  share  tenants  were 
entitled  to  relatively  little.  Many  landlords  deducted  old  debts  owed  them  by 
tenants  from  the  tenants'  share  in  the  benefits.  There  is  evidence,  too,  that 
unscrupulous  landlords  retained  money  that  should  have  gone  to  their  tenants 
On  the  other  hand,  many  owners  with  cash-  or  share-tenants  were  dissatisfied 
with  their  part  in  the  payments,  and  some  refused  to  sign  contracts  for  that 
reason  The  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  was  placed  in  a  dilemma 
by  these  conflicts.  But  it  felt  obliged  to  secure  maximum  participation  in  the 
programs,  and  it  is  therefore  not  surprising  that  it  made  concessions  to  operating 
farm  owners. 

PKESENT  METHOD  OF  DISTRIBUTING  BENEFIT  PAYMENTS 

True,  the  Administration  has  attempted  to  minimize  such  inequities  by  seek- 
ing to  divide  the  reduction  in  acreage  proportionately  among  landlords  and 
tenants.  Under  the  present  program,  soil-conservation  and  parity  payments 
are  distributed  in  the  same  proportion  as  crops  are  shared  under  the  terms 
of  the  landlord-tenant  agreements,  except  that  payments  for  soil-building  prac- 
tices are  divided  in  accordance  with  the  contribution  of  each  party.  Checks 
are  made  out  separately  to  landlords,  tenants,  and  sharecroppers.  The  act 
specifies  that  extra  payments  are  to  be  made  to  persons  who  would  otherwise 
receive  only  small  amounts.  And  it  obligates  landlords  not  to  reduce  the 
number  of  their  tenants  below  the  average  number  on  their  farms  during 
the  three  preceding  years.  The  loop-hole  is  that  the  limitation  applies  "only 
if  the  county  committee  finds  that  the  change  or  reduction  is  not  justified 
and  disapproves  such  change  or  reduction." 

According  to  a  Missouri  planter  who  has  been  seeking  fairer  treatment  of 
croppers,  this  provision  has  lead  to : 

"*  *  *  a  situation  which  exposes  committeemen  to  constant  and  unceas- 
ing pressure  and  which  inevitably  leads  to  contradictory  and  confusing  deci- 
sions. *  *  *  It  is  not  overstating  the  case  very  much  to  say  that  we  have 
almost  as  many  different  tenancy  or  worker  policies  in  cotton  control  as 
there  are  counties  and  county  committees.  *  *  *  What  liappens  after  a 
landlord  decides  upon  a  change?  He  goes  to  the  committee  and  thereupon 
the  three  harrassed  men  who  are  trying  to  run  a  complicated  cotton  program 
find  themselves  in  an  impossible  position.  They  know  very  well  that  since 
1933,  other  owners  have  shifted  to  (l:iy  labor  and  are  getting  all  the  payments. 
Why,  therefore,  should  they  discriminate  against  this  late-comer?  *  *  * 
They  get  very  little  credit  if  tliey  stand  firm  and  try  to  run  a  good  program. 
On  the  other  hand,  determined  and  oftentimes  greedy  men  give  them  hell 
if  they  disapprove  the  change.     With  this  situation,  the  result  can  be  foreseen. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3777 

More  ami  more  shifts  occur.  More  and  more  sharecroppers  become  a  part 
of  the  floating  and  dispossessed  army  tliat  is  a  constantly  growing  threat  to 
the  stability  of  the  South.  *  *  *  But  the  planters  who  do  not  choose  to 
go  to  the  day-labor  route  may  still  be  unwilling  to  be  outsmarted  by  those 
who  do.  So  they  may  elect  other  effective  means  to  divert  the  cropper's 
payments  into  their  own  pockets,  among  which  are  what  sometimes  are  called 
bonus  rents,  privilege  rents,  and  side  assignment  arrangements.  Whatever 
these  arrangements  are  called,  they  constitute  a  means  of  taking  the  payments 
that  Congress  intended  to  go  to  the  tenant  and  sharecropper." 

As  indicated  above,  the  present  adjustment  laws  are  not  so  lacking  in 
safeguards  for  tenants  as  was  the  original  act.  Yet,  they  are  still  plentifully 
supplied  with  loop-holes  by  which  the  landowner  may,  if  he  wishes,  profit  at 
the  tenant's  expense.     According  to  a  newspaperman,  Charles  Edmundson — 

"Among  some  high  officials  of  the  Department  of  Agriculture  itself,  there 
is  indignation  that  no  greater  protection  has  been  offered  to  tenants  and  share- 
croppers *  *  *  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  officials  tend  to 
blame  Congress  for  the  faults  of  the  law.  Congressmen  say,  with  dubious 
authority,  that  the  provisions  are  working  satisfactory  in  communities  where 
the  tenants  and  sharecroppers  have  a  political  voice.  But  representatives  of 
the  sharecroppers  reply  that  the  administration  is  to  blame  for  not  having 
brought  pressure  on  Congress  to  write  a  law  that  would  protect  the  share- 
cropper." 

Relatively  larger  gains  to  the  landlord  group  have  apparently  not  been 
peculiar  to  the  South.  A  study  of  the  distribution  of  the  Agricultural  Adjust- 
ment Administration  benefits  in  the  Corn  Belt  led  Walter  W.  Wilcox  to  the 
following  conclusion : 

'It  may  safely  be  concluded  that  landlords  as  a  group  have  benefited  more 
from  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  *  *  *  than  have  ten- 
ants. The  same  conclusion  might  also  be  applied  to  large  farmers  as  com- 
pared with  small  farmers.  *  *  *  Nevertheless,  in  spite  of  unequal 
benefits  *  *  *  almost  all  Iowa  farmers  find  it  profitable  to  be  in  the  Agricid- 
tural  Adjustment  Administration  program  this  year,  as  in  1939." 

FARM    LABOR  EXCLUDED  FEOM    PEOTECTIVE   LEGISLATION 

Agricultural  workers  are  largely  excluded  from  the  benefits  of  protective 
labor  laws  and  social  insurance,  and  agricultural  wage-workers'  incomes  and  em- 
ployment opportunities  have  improved  little  since  1932.  The  Agricultural  Adjust- 
ment Administration  legislation  makes  no  provision  that  hired  workers  be  com- 
pensated for  loss  of  employment  due  to  acreage  reduction.  P^arm  workers  in 
recent  years  have  probably  been  in  a  worse  situation  than  at  any  other  time 
in  our  history  since  the  end  of  Negro  slavery.  This  is  mainly  the  cruel  out- 
come of  the  onrushing  mechanization  of  agriculture.  The  widespread  adoption 
of  tractors  and  other  farm  machines  has  wiped  out  the  need  for  migrant  ]ab(;r 
in  most  of  the  grain  areas,  and  it  is  greatly  reducing  the  demand  for  wage 
workers  everywhere.  Furthermore,  the  exemption  of  agricultural  employers 
from  the  requirements  of  the  Wage  and  Hour  Act  virtually  lends  official 
sanction  to  the  long  working  day  and  low  wage  rates  characteristic  of  farm 
employment.  To  be  sure,  some  protection  has  been  given  to  sugar-beet  field 
woikers  under  the  sugar  acts. 

At  best,  it  is  exceedingly  difficult  to  operate  the  programs — set  as  they  are 
in  the  going  agi-icultural  system— in  such  a  way  that  tenants,  croppers,  and 
laborers  will  have  complete  protection  ^gainst  loss  of  income.  And  it  would 
b?  unfair  to  censure  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  too  severely 
for  neglecting  the  submerged  half  of  our  farm  population.  Any  agricultural 
program  designed  to  help  farmers  by  means  of  operations  in  the  traditional 
pi-ice  system  must  of  necessity  concern  itself  primarily  with  commercial  farm 
operators.  Nor  can  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  be  blamed  for 
fundamentally  ins^ecure  labor  and  tenancy  conditions  in  the  South.  As  the 
Brookings  Institution  says: 

"Those  who  have  most  strongly  criticized  the  working  of  the  program  on  thLs 
score  in  effect  contended  that  it  should  have  operated  to  correct  conditions 
which  have  been  more  than  a  century  in  the  making,  which  the  Adjustment  Act 
was  never  designed  to  correct  and  which  call  for  readjustments  so  funda- 
mental that  another  century  will  probably  not  see  them  nearly  made." 


r^yyg  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

SPECIAL    GOVERNMENT    ATTENTION    TO    LOW-INCOME    FARMEKS 

Rei-pon.sibility  for  the  distress  of  farm  laborers  liardiy  rests  with  the  Adjust- 
ment Administration.  Perhaps  it  might  have  undertaken  to  protect  them 
somewliat  more,  but  it  could  not  go  far  under  the  terms  of  its  programs. 

We  must  keep  in  mind,  too,  that  some  efforts  on  behalf  of  less  fortunate 
rural  people  are  being  made,  especially  under  the  Farm  Security  Administra- 
tion. As  we  have  seen,  these  activities  are  perhaps  little  more  than  experi- 
mental, but  they  are  a  beginning.  In  view  of  the  political  power  of  the  various 
groups  in  agriculture,  it  is  surprising,  not  that  so  little  is  accomplished  for 
poorer  farmers,  but  that  even  this  much  is  being  done. 

In  fact,  under  the  New  Deal,  low-income  farmers  have  been  the  object  of 
special  governmental  attention  for  the  first  time.  Of  outstanding  importance 
is  the  recognition  that  their  problems  require  measures  that  go  bsyond  those 
intended  to  aid  commercial  agriculture.  As  we  have  noted,  rehabilitation  loans 
and  grants  and  expert  counsel  have  helped  over  a  million  of  the  most  insecure 
farmers.  Thousands  have  been  moved  from  submarginal  land  and  settled 
either  on  individual  farms  or  in  cooperative  communities  where  they  have  a 
better  chance  of  making  a  living.  A  small  number  of  farm  wage  workers  and 
tenants  have  participated  in  the  tenant-purchase  program,  and  a  few  have 
been  settled  in  experimental  conniuniities.  Other's  have  availed  themselves 
of  the  migrant-labor  camps  established  by  the  Federal  Security  Administration 
on  the  Pacific  coast  and  in  Florida.  Most  of  the  immense  job  remains  to  be 
done,  but  at  least  a  start  has  been  made. 

COUNTY  PR0C5AM PLANNING   COMMITTEES 

At  this  point  we  may  seek  to  assess  certain  claims  made  by  advocates  and 
critics  of  the  New  Deal  farm  policy.  One  group  emphasizes  the  democratic 
character  of  prodiucer  referenda  and  county  program  planning  committees.  The 
other  points  to  licen.ses,  orders,  marketing  quotas,  and  penalty  taxes — and 
cries,  "'Regimentation !"  As  in  many  heated  controversies,  the  truth  seems 
to  lie  somewhere  between  the  two  extremes.  In  1934  Mr.  Wallace  warned  of 
"compulsory  control  of  marketing,  licensing  of  plowed  land,  base  and  surplus 
quotas  for  every  farmer  for  every  product  for  each  month  in  the  year  *  ■'  * 
and  Government  control  of  all  surpluses  *  *  *."  Since  then,  indeed,  control 
of  marketing  and  crop  surpluses  has  l>een  instituted  in  large  measure. 

Mr.  Wallace  also  feared  the  day  when  "every  plowed  field  would  have  its 
permit  sticking  up  on  its  post."  Alreaily  we  hear  demands  for  a  restriction 
of  the  entrance  of  new  farmers  into  production. 

ITnquestionably,  the  agricultural  policy  under  the  New  Deal  has  been  tending 
toward  "regimentation,"  if  by  that  term  we  mean-  a  degree  of  centralized  plan- 
ning and  control,  compliance  witli  which  is  obtained  both  by  persuasion  and 
by  fear  of  economic  or  other  penalties.  Still,  this  is  not  the  whole  story.  We 
have  perhaps  mo^ed  far  toward  this  kind  of  "regimentation,"  yet  in  1938  a 
minority  of  tobacco  farmers  could  prevent  the  imposition  of  marketing  quotas 
favored  by  the  majority  in  a  referendum.  Moreovei',  the  various  county  com- 
mittees have  had  their  powers  and  scope  of  operations  constantly  expanded. 
According  to  Secretary  Wallace : 

"We  are  slowly  building  a  mechanism,  county  by  county  *  *  *  by  means 
of  which  the  farmers  themselves  will  determine  the  (dements  of  their  total 
agricultural  program,  will  decide  how  these  elements  may  be  welded  together 
in  one  effective  program,  and  finally  will  administer  that  program  *  *  *. 
Our  jab  in  the  DoparUneut  and  in  the  colleges  is  to  put  the  facts  before  them, 
and  to  abide  by  their  decisions." 

This  sounds  not  at  all  like  the  language  of  a  dictator.  Nor  does  the  declara- 
tion of  M.  I..  Wilson,  that  "*  *  '■'■'  as  changing  national  and  world  condi- 
tions require  national  policies  by  the  Federal  Government  in  agriculture 
*  *  *  the  national  aspects  of  these  programs  must  be  offset  by  propor- 
tionately increas'd  individual  participation  by  the  farmer  and  his  f.';mily  in 
the  formation  of  the  national  policy  and  its  administration." 

Questions  really  involved  here  are :  How  democratic  are  the.se  processes  in 
actual  operation?  How  effective  are  they?  Do  the  county  and  community 
committees,  which  play  an  important  part  under  the  various  farm  programs. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3779 

represent  all  groups  in  the  farm  community,  or  are  they  packed  with  farmers 
in  the  higher-income  brackets,  or  with  those  who  belong  to  a  ix)litical  clique, 
or  with  those  who  are  friends  of  the  county  agents?  To  what  extent  do  the 
subsidies  warp  their  judgments?  Is  sufficient  information  available  to  these 
bodies  so  that  they  can  make  wise  decisions?  Are  their  members  capable  of 
arriving  at  conclusions  that  must  be  based  on  complex  data,  and  many  of  which 
must  be  related  inevitably  to  uonagricultural  affairs  in  the  Nation  and  with 
international  developments?  i 

No  conclusive  answers  can  be  given  to  most  of  these  and  similar  questions 
at  present,  inasmuch  as  systematic  data  on  the  activities  of  the  committees  is 
not  available.  It  is  regrettable  that  the  Department  of  Agriculture,  with  its 
extensive  research  facilities,  has  not  made  a  formal  study  of  the  operation  of 
even  a  representative  sample  of  the  county  committees,  their  composition,  and 
operation. 

In  the  early  years  of  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration,  certainly, 
many  county  committees  were  anything  but  representative  of  all  farm  groups 
affected.  Two  observers  of  the  1933  cotton  "plow  up"  wrote :  "The  county  agent 
was  the  local  keyman  in  the  campaign.  He  appointed  a  county  cornmittee, 
composed  of  the  leading  big  farmers  *  *  *.  in  the  hundreds  of  counties  we 
visited  we  did  not  find  a  single  case  where  a  sharecropper  or  a  representative 
of  the  poorer  ranks  of  farmers  was  put  on  the  committee."  And  such  a  situa- 
tion was  probably  not  peculiar  to  the  Cotton  Belt. 

There  is  at  least  some  testimony  that  the  recent  operation  of  the  cotton 
programs  in  the  field  has  been  a  parody  of  "farmers'  democracy."  A  staff 
correspondent  of  the  St.  Louis  Post-Dispatch  writes : 

"New  Deal  enthusiasts  in  the  Department  of  Agriculture  like  to  expand 
upon  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  as  a  'new  form  of  democracy, 
a  kind  of  self-government,  that  reaches  down  to  the  grassroots  and  touches  on 
economic  as  well  as  political  organization.'  This  glowing  description  is  hardly 
sustained  by  the  facts  one  finds  in  a  first-hand  ex'amination  of  the  way  the 
Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  is  working  in  the  Cotton  Belt.  *  *  * 
The  law  presupposes  that  all  'producers'  have  the  right  to  vote  in  electing  these 
all-important  (county)  committees— 'producer'  being  defined  to  include  tenants 
and  sharecroppers  as  well  as  landowners.  But  while  this  is  the  nominal  intent 
of  the  law,  the  reality  is  often  something  quite  different.  In  and  around 
Tunica,  Clarksdale,  and  Greenwood,  Mi.ss.  *  *  *  not  1  out  of  perhaps  50 
Negro  tenant  farmers  interviewed  had  ever  heard  that  he  had  the  right  to  vote 
in  electing  the  committee.  And  a  white  sharecropper,  who  knew  he  was  sup- 
posed to  vote  in  electing  the  only  body  which  could  protect  his  rights,  was 
almost  an  equal  rarity.  But  it  would  be  an  error  to  assume  that  the  share- 
croppers are  barred  from  ^ill  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  elections. 
Each  year  the  'producers'  vote  on  whether  they  will  continue  the  crop-control 
scheme  for  another  year.  In  these  elections  the  landowners  not  only  notify 
the  tenants  and  sharecroppers  of  the  approaching  election  but  see  to  it  that 
they  vote.  This  balloting  is  not  secret,  and  the  sharecroppers  say  that  they 
•are  firmly  advised  how  to  cast  their  votes.  *  *  *  This,  in  general,  is  the 
way  the  'new  form  of  democracy'  works  in  the  great  Delta  sections  of  Missis- 
sippi, Arkansas,  and  Louisiana.  It  is  much  the  same  in  Alabama  and  Georgia's 
fertile  Black  Belt." 

In  general,  however,  it  appears  that  the  county  committees  have  done  their 
work  at  least  satisfactorily,  so  far  as  application  of  the  program  goes,  for  the 
Department  has  often  expressed  its  appreciation  of  their  sei*vices.  According 
to  the  Brookings  Institution  : 

"It  is  the  testimony  even  of  the  most  conservative  and  independent  of  the 
directors  [of  the  State  agi-icultural  agencies]  that  the  commodity  programs 
of  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  substantially  increased  the 
amount  of  active  participation  of  local  farmers  in  study  of  basic  problems  of 
efficient  farm  management  and  developed  many  new  local  leaders." 

And  where  political  troubles  have  arisen,  as  in  'an  attempt  in  1935  to  weld  the 
committees  into  a  national  pressure  organization,  the  Administration  has  taken 
prompt  and  effective  action.  On  the  other  hand,  it  is  hard  to  see  how  com- 
mitteemen can  escape  the  temptation  to  manipulate  local  application  of  pro- 
grams so  as  to  maximize  the  flow  of  benefit  payments  to  their  counties. 


260370— 41— pt.  9- 


g-^SO  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Problems  of  a  more  technical  nature  may  also  develop  as  the  scope  of  the 
committees  is  widened.  How  much  freedom  shall  they  be  given  to  depart 
from  the  national  plan?  After  all,  if  even  minor  modifications  in  a  particular 
direction  are  made  in  many  counties,  the  total  extent  of  departure  from  the 
national  plan  may  be  serious.  Shall  adjustments  in  one  county  be  permitted 
to  shift  problems  to  other  localities,  as  when  county  committees  advise  their 
sui-plus  population  to  move  to  other  sections?  These  and  other  problems  will 
no  doubt  be  dealt  with  as  they  arise,  with  results  that  we  must  await. 

Finally — and  this  is  a  very  important  question — does  the  scheme  for  a 
"farmers'  democracy"  make  room  for  democratic  participation  by  nonfarm 
groups  that  also  have  a  proper  concern  for  agricultural  policy?  Or  is  it  just 
one  more  way  of  organizing  private  groups,  under  governmental  auspices,  to 
work  primarily  in  their  own  interests?  One  answer  has  been  that  Congress; 
represents  the  general  public's  interests  in  the  shaping  of  farm  policy. 

THE    OUTLOOK    FOK    AMERICAN'    AGKICXJXTURE 

There  is  no  question  that  the  New  Deal's  programs  have  resulted  in  sub- 
stantial immediate  benefits  to  farmers.  They  have  won  considerable  success  in 
their  primary  mission  of  overcoming  depression  on  the  farm  front.  But  it  is 
intended  that  agricultural  income  be  raised — not  us  a  result  of  mere  "handouts," 
but  as  a  result  of  efforts  to  strengthen  farmers  in  the  markets.  What,  then, 
seem  to  be  the  longer-run  trends  of  American  commercial  agriculture?  Is  it 
being  fiuidamentally  strengthened  by  current  policy?  And  what  of  the  dis- 
advantaged half  of  our  farmers,  those  whose  fortunes  are  less  intimately  bound 
up  with  the  markets  for  commercial  crops?  Such  are  the  ultimately  important 
questions. 

It  must  be  said  that — so  far  as  the  great  staples  are  concerned— the  basic 
dilemma  remains.  And  this,  us  we  have  seen,  is  finally  a  dilemma  of  our  entire 
economy.  Large  potential  supplies  and  inadequate  demands,  at  home  and 
abroad,  still  tend  to  hold  prices  at  levels  unprofitable  to  many  farmers.  Not 
only  have  underlying  weaknesses  of  our  agriculture  been  perpetuated,  but  new 
strains  and  stresses  have  appeared.  In  the  absence  of  subsidies,  many  farmers* 
incomes  are  likely  to  remain  inadequate.  To  be  sure  the  Agricultural  Adjust- 
ment Administration  has  effected  some  reductions  of  current  market  supplies, 
and  it  must  be  kept  in  mind  that  its  controls  were  virtually  suspended  in  1936-37. 
Moreover,  much  good  is  likely  to  fiow  from  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Ad- 
ministration's encouragement  of  shifts  of  acreage  from  cultivated  crops  to 
pasture  crops,  not  least  because  this  reduces  soil  depletion  and  erosion.  But 
at  the  same  time,  other  forces — chiefiy  technological  and  biological — are  tending 
to  increase  agricultural  yields.  And  there  is  always  a  question  whether  farmers 
will  agree  to  further  reduction  of  output,  so  long  as  they  see  a  political  possi- 
bility of  obtaining  subsidies.  True,  in  years  of  bumper  crops  farmers  may 
approve  of  governmental  efforts  to  withhold  stocks  from  the  market,  but  they 
are  not  so  likely  to  support  subsequent  sale  of  these  stocks. 

On  the  whole,  our  farm  programs  have  concentrated  on  short-term  problems, 
those  that  can  be  expressed  in  terms  of  prices  and  incomes  over  a  period  of  a 
few  years.  A  major  exception  is  the  effort  at  soil  conservation  with  its  concern 
for  the  saving  of  our  priceless  land  resources.  But  the  dilemma  of  a  far-flung 
agriculture,  whose  foreign  markets  are  fast  ebbing  away,  has  not  been  faced 
directly  or  completely.  No  effective  answer  has.  been  given  to  the  primary 
question  of  how  many  of  our  people  we  want  in  agriculture,  and  what  role  we 
wish  agriculture  to  play  in  our  evolving  economy.  Perhaps  this  concentration 
on  more  immediate  problems  and  tasks  is  inevitable  in  a  democracy  where 
political  pressure  from  powerful  and  selfish  groups  is  constantly  prodding 
government  into  paths  of  least  resistance. 

As  would  be  expected  in  the  given  political  and  social  environment,  the  pro- 
grams have  revolved  principally  around  aid  for  the  commercially  significant 
farmers.  Relatively  little  help  has  gone  to  the  most  disadvantaged  rural 
people — the  smaller,  poorer  farmers  and  tenants,  and  the  farm  wage  workers. 
There  is  also  a  possibility  that  benefits  under  the  programs  accrue  as  an  added 
return  to  the  land.  If  this  is  capitalized  in  higher  land  values,  the  purpose 
of  helping  farmers  in  need  tends  once  again  to  be  defeated.  In  other  words, 
the  adjustment  of  benefits  to  human  needs  has  been  none  too  close.     To  some 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3781 

extent,  at  least,  this  has  been  unavoidable  in  view  of  practical  and  legal 
necessities.  Moreover,  we  must  always  keep  in  mind  that  the  New  Deal 
administration  has  at  least  recognized  the  problems  of  disadvantaged  farmers 
and  laborers,  and  that  it  has  taken  steps  in  their  behalf.  But  these  steps  are 
still  far  short  of  what  is  needed  in  order  to  tackle  their  problems  and  overcome 
them. 

Too  little  emphasis  has  been  placed  on  stimulation  of  demand,  at  least  in 
the  earlier  years  of  the  New  Deal  programs.  Moreover,  efforts  to  reduce 
production  of  export  crops  have  tended  to  be  self-defeating,  largely  because  they 
have  encouraged  foreign  producers  to  increase  their  output.  That  is,  not  only 
have  the  farm  programs  done  relatively  little  to  raise  demands  for  the  staples, 
but  also  in  some  cases  they  have  operated  to  reduce  the  market  outlets.  This 
has  been  most  serious  for  cotton.  Support  of  American  cotton  prices  above 
world  levels,  by  means  of  loans  and  storage,  has  checked  sales  in  markets 
abroad  and  stimulated  foreign  production  of  the  staple.  The  farm  programs 
are  by  no  means  alone  responsible  for  this  decline.  Yet  it  remains  that  most 
of  our  foreign  cotton  market  is  lost^even  if  we  are  prepared  for  extensive 
subsidization — and  that  the  situation  of  American  cotton  agriculture  is  pre- 
carious.    It  is  the  weakest  sector  in  our  farm  economy. 

To  be  sure,  an  increasing  amount  of  foodstuffs  has  been  made  available  for 
consumption  by  low-income  families.  And  the  food-stamp  plan  promises  to  do 
much  to  break  down  barriers  to  the  consumption  of  farm  products  by  millions 
of  Americans  who  suffer  from  inadequate  diets.  Surely  this  is  more  humane, 
and  in  the  long  run  economically  wiser,  than  to  "dump"'  the  goods  abroad  or  to 
store  them  speculatively  for  long  periods  at  home.  Yet,  in  the  main,  domestic 
demands  can  he  raised  substantially  only  if  our  entire  industrial  system  op- 
erates on  higher  levels  than  in  the  past.  This  is  hardly  within  the  scope  of 
agricultural  programs  as  such,  but  it  must  be  the  objective  of  a  broader 
national  policy  of  which  agricultural  programs  are  a  part. 

DECLINE    OF    WORLD    MARKET 

It  is  true  that  general  economic  recovery  since  1938  stimulated  domestic 
demands  for  some  products,  but  not  sufficiently  to  enable  us  to  say  that  the 
crisis  is  ended.  The  world  market  outlook  still  points  to  declining  American 
farm  exports.  And  the  New  World  AVar  has  further  dai'kened  the  long-run 
prospects.  Demands  of  the  belligerents  for  food  and  cotton  may  rise  if  the 
war  is  protracted,  but  they  cannot  be  expected  to  remain  on  high  levels  after 
the  war.  We  do  not  know  what  the  ultimate  effects  of  the  war  will  be  on  our 
agriculture.  But  inasmuch  as  the  incomes  of  belligerent  peoples  are  likely  to 
be  reduced,  we  can  expect  only  a  restricted  outlet  for  American  farm  products 
in  Europe.  Some  observers  look  for  increased  exports  of  our  industrial  products 
to  Latin  American  countries,  because  of  the  inability  of  Europeans  to  supply 
them.  Yet  it  is  hard  to  see  how  this  could  directly  help  our  agriculture, 
simply  because  those  countries  also  produce  surpluses  of  grains,  meats,  and 
cotton.  In  fact,  if  our  industrial  exports  to  the  South  Americans  increase 
greatly,  and  if  we  expect  to  be  paid,  then  it  seems  inevitable  that  we  must 
accept  increasing   amounts  of  agricultural   products  from   them. 

It  is  hard  to  escape  the  conclusion  that — unless  domestic  demands  increase 
greatly— three  possibilities  confront  us :  Millions  of  rural  people  must  be 
doomed  to  chronic  poverty,  or  must  leave  the  land,  or  must  be  subsidized  by 
the  Government.  But  our  farmers  will  not  sink  into  chronic  poverty  without 
vigorous  protests,  and  they  have  political  power  to  translate  their  protests 
Into  action.  On  the  other  hand,  if  our  urban  economy  were  to  expand  so 
that  it  could  absorb  farmers  at  decent  wages,  then  much  would  be  gained. 
But,  with  millions  of  industrial  workers  unemployed,  the  low-income  farmers 
and  the  young  people  backed  up  on  farms  cannot  move  to  the  cities  to  make 
a  living.  Indeed,  certain  authorities  believe,  not  without  reason,  that  any 
large  reduction  of  our  rural  population  would  be  a  national  calamity.  At  any 
rate,  so  long  as  our  urban  economy  does  not  expand  greatly,  we  must  be 
prepared  to  hear  demands  for  continued  agricultural  subsidies.  And  again, 
the  political  power  of  farmers  makes  it  probable  that  these  demands  will 
be  met. 


3782 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Of  course,  it  is  not  likely  that  the  futvire  will  witness  any  one  of  these  alterna- 
tives alone.  Life  is  not  so  simple.  Industry  will  probably  continue  to  absorb 
some  rural  people;  others  will  become  poor  or  even  poorer;  still  others  will  be 
helped  by  the  Government  to  stay  on  the  land.  Some  farmers,  especially  those 
with  low  costs,  may  make  good  livings  even  without  special  help.  Prophecy  of 
social  changes  is  dangerous.  But,  short  of  unforeseeable  developments,  America 
cannot  be  expected  to  maintain  a  large  rural  population  on  satisfactory  living 
levels  without  public  aid.  Otherwise  a  growing  unrest  among  farm  people  might 
well  endanger  our  democracy. 

There  is  a  final  question :  Is  subsidy  even  less  desirable  than  the  evils  it  is  in- 
tended to  ovei-come?  Many  persons  think  so.  They  see  vested  interests  being 
built  up,  and  demanding  more  and  ever  more  from  the  public  purse.  They  also 
argue  that  subsidies  restrict  the  ability  of  nonagricultural  industries  to  employ 
people  now  on  farms.  Joseph  S.  Davis,  an  eminent  agricultural  economist, 
declares : 

"Raising  farm  income  above  its  economic  equilibrium  level  tends  to  mean  more 
farmers  than  can  earn  these  incomes;  this  hampers  consolidation  into  more 
efficient  operating  units,  creates  a  problem  of  surplus  farm  population,  and 
intensifies  demands  for  subsidies  to  farmers;  and  it  logically  leads  next  to  re- 
straints on  entrance  into  farming  *  *  *.  No  one  has  yet  seriously  proposed 
that  measures  to  regulate  acreage,  farming  procedures,  production,  and  marketing 
be  reinforced  by  regulation  of  the  entrance  into  and  exit  from  farming,  but  these 
are  logical  further  strands  in  the  tightening  web  of  regimentation  *  *  * 
Farmers  have  set  great  store  by  independence,  whatever  its  limitations  in  prac- 
tice. The  new  policies  are  not  only  curtailing  this  independence  but  sapping  their 
morale,  even  though  many  recognize  as  bonuses  payments  that  are  camouflaged 
under  more  appealing  names.  Once  accustomed  to  a  gentle  rain  of  Federal  checks, 
farmers  are  reluctant  to  see  the  rains  cease — however  irrational  the  procedure 
may  appear  to  them,  however  uncomfortable  the  terms  imposed.  Regardless  of 
the  purity  of  motives  of  the  administration,  a  subtle  form  of  political  corruption 
is  involved ;  for  farmers'  votes  are  effectually  influenced  when  their  income  reems 
to  depend  increasingly  on  political  measures,  and  less  and  less  on  the  economic 
value  that  society  sets  on  their  products  and  services  *  *  *  j  believe  that 
beyond  somewhat  narrow  limits  higher  real  incomes  per  farm  family  are  condi- 
tioned upon  reductions  in  our  commercial  farming  personnel,  as  well  as  increase 
of  size  of  commercial  farms  to  accommodate  imyn-oved  machine  technique;  and 
that  .subsidies  to  keep  more  people  in  farming  will  not  avail,  in  the  long  run,  to 
raise  incomes  per  farmer." 

There  is  merit  in  these  criticisms.  However,  it  is  one  thing  to  criticize  farm 
policy,  and  quite  another — and  much  more  difficult — thing  to  propose  alternatives 
that  are  politically  feasible. 

Moreover,  it  ought  to  be  recalled  that  government  has  always  subsidized  one 
group  or  another,  not  least  many  people  who  consider  themselves  "ruggedly 
independent."  Indeed  subsidies  can  sometimes  be  justified.  Short-run  subsidies 
may  be  advisable  when  there  are  sudden  large  changes  in  demand  or  in  tech- 
nology that  would  result  in  great  hardships  to  many  persons.  Long-run  sub- 
sidies may  be  warranted  when  there  is  a  continuing  discrepancy  between  market 
demand  and  social  utility.  Here,  of  course,  the  difficulty  is  objectively  to  meas- 
ure "social  utility."  As  for  American  agriculture,  it  may  be  argued  that  short- 
run  aid  is  required  because  the  only  practical  alternative  is  increa.sed  poverty 
for  many  farmers.  Secondly,  long-run  subsidies  may  be  desirable  if  we  are 
convinced  that  farm  life  has  inherent  social  values  not  found  elsewhere. 

One  conclusion  is  forced  upon  us,  again  and  again.  Our  farm  problem  is  part 
and  parcel  of  our  national  problem.  We  shall  have  surpluses  of  goods,  surpluses 
of  farmers,  cries  for  public  help,  so  long  as  the  incomes  of  American  families 
remain  on  their  present  levels.  So  long  as  men  and  women  do  not  have  adequate 
food  or  sufficient  clothing,  we  shall  suffer  from  the  folly  of  want  in  the  midst 
of  plenty.  Yet  we  cannot  resign  ourselves  to  accepting  this  as  inevitable.  The 
task  before  us  is  to  find  means  for  making  a  wise  and  humane  use  of  all  our 
resources.  It  is  here  that  America's  agriculture  will  find  its  salvation.  And 
here  is  a  task  calling  for  the  highest  social  statesmanship. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3783 

TESTIMONY  OF  CARL  T.  SCHMIDT— Resumed 

The  Chairman.  Congressman  Osmers  will  interrogate  you,  Dr. 
Schmidt. 

Mr.  Osmers.  I  wonder,  Dr.  Schmidt,  if  you  would  care  to  sum- 
marize your  statement  briefly  for  us.  As  the  Chairman  said,  your 
entire  statement  will  be  placed  in  the  record.  I  wonder  if  you  would 
care  to  high  light  it  for  us  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir.  My  statement  is  concerned  with  the  gen- 
eral picture  of  American  agriculture  in  recent  years,  and  its  outlook 
in  the  foreseeable  future. 

It  falls  into  four  parts : 

First,  a  consideration  of  basic  forces  that  have  been  making  for 
persistent  depression  in  American  agriculture  during  the  past  20 
years;  secondly,  an  outline  of  the  main  elements  of  our  farm  policy 
and  programs  since  1932; 

Thirdly,  some  comments  on  the  effects  of  the  Agricultural  Ad- 
justment programs  on  farm  laborer  and  farm  tenants;  and,  fourthly, 
a  brief  indication  of  the  outlook  for  American  agi-iculture. 

Would  you  care  for  me  to  dwell  on  any  of  these  sections  par- 
ticularly ? 

Mr.  Osmers.  Well,  speaking  as  one  member  of  the  committee,  I 
would  like  to  have  you  dwell,  if  you  will,  on  the  outlook  for  Amer- 
ican agriculture  with  particular  reference  to  the  future  migration 
that  may  come  as  a  result  of  agricultural  conditions. 

Mr.  Schmidt.  It  may  be  a  little  bit  difficult  to  make  quite  clear 
what  I  have  in  mind  with  respect  to  the  predictable  future  of  Amer- 
ican agriculture  without  first  considering  some  of  the  forces  that 
have  been  making  for  depression.  However,  I  will  go  on  to  that 
if  you  wish. 

Mr.  Osmers.  Well,  proceed  in  your  own  way  on  that.  Dr.  Schmidt. 

CAUSES   OF  DECLINE   OF  AMERICAN   AGRICULTURE 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir.  I  think  we  can  briefly  summarize  the 
nature  of  the  factors  that  have  been  making  for  a  decline  of  Ameri- 
can staple-crop  agriculture  during  the  past  20  years,  or  even  during 
the  past  generation,  somewhat  as  follows : 

Our  staple-crop-farm  system  was  built  up  not  only  to  supply  do- 
mestic demands  but  also  great  foreign  markets. 

During  the  past  generation,  particularly  since  the  first  World 
War,  the  foreign  markets  for  American  staple  crops  have  declined 
very  seriously.  At  the  same  time  domestic  demand  has  tended  to 
stagnate.  That  was  evident  even  before  the  beginning  of  the  great 
depression  in  1929. 

On  the  other  hand,  our  farmers,  our  staple-crop  farmers,  have  con- 
tinued to  produce  in  great  abundance,  hence  a  persistent  tendency 
for  the  prices  of  these  staple  crops  to  decline,  or  at  any  rate  to 
decline  in  the  face  of  relatively  rigid  costs  of  production  and  farm 
living. 


3yg4  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Another  way  of  putting  it  is  to  say  that  these  forces  of  supply 
and  demand  have  tended  to  make  prices  received  by  farmers  in- 
sufficient to  enable  them  to  live  satisfactorily. 

In  broad  terms  we  should  also  take  note  of  the  contrast  between 
the  small-scale  highly  competitive  character  of  American  agriculture! 
on  the  one  hand,  and  the  increasingly  integrated  large-scale  character 
of  American  urban  industry  on  the  other  hand. 

This  contradiction  between  two  great  parts  of  our  economic  sys- 
tem goes  a  long  way  toward  explaining  the  relative  weakness  of 
farm  prices. 

Furthermore,  as  I  have  indicated,  the  foreign  markets  for  our 
cotton,  our  wheat,  our  hog  products,  and  tobacco  have  contracted 
seriously  since  the  World  War. 

In  general  we  can  attribute  this  decline  in  our  foreign  markets  to 
the  rise  of  new  competitors  to  our  American  farmers  in  other  parts 
of  the  world,  as,  for  example,  in  the  Argentine,  Australia,  Canada. 

We  can  attribute  it  furthermore  to  the  growth  of  economic  nation- 
alism, especially  in  European  countries  who  were  formerly  good 
customers  of  American  farmers. 

And  certainly  we  can  attribute  some  of  it  to  nationalistic  economic 
policies  in  this  country,  particularly  with  respect  to  our  tariff  pro- 
grams. 

Furthermore,  as  noted  a  few  moments  ago,  domestic  demand  has 
tended  to  stagnate.  In  the  main  this  is  a  function  of  the  tendency 
of  our  rate  of  population  growth  to  decline. 

It  is  estimated  that  in  time  there  may  even  be  fewer  mouths  to 
feed  and  backs  to  clothe  in  this  country  than  there  are  now.  At  any 
rate  this  slowing  down  in  the  growth  of  our  population  has  removed 
one  important  bulwark  from  our  agriculture  that  supported  it  in 
large  measure  during  the  nineteenth  century. 

Mr.  Curtis.  May  I  interrupt  you  to  ask  a  question  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir. 

STAPLE  CROPS  AND  PERCENT  OF  CONSUMPTION 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  crops  do  you  classify  as  "staple  crops"? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  By  staple  crops  we  generally  understand  cotton, 
corn,  hogs,  wheat,  and  other  small  grains,  and  tobacco,  primarily. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  percentage  of  these  staple  crops  are  consumed 
in  the  United  States?     What  percentage  of  our  production? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  I  should  say  that  as  regards  cotton  at  the  present 
time,  roughly,  65  to  70  percent  is  held  in  this  country.  A  good  deal 
of  it  in  recent  years,  of  course,  has  not  been  consumed  but  is  merely 
being  held  in  storage  by  the  Government. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  true  about  wheat? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  About  80  to  90  percent. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Perhaps  closer  to  90  percent,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  I  should  think  so  ordinarily,  yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  corn  and  pork  products? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Hog  products,  perhaps  90  percent.  Also  our  exports 
of  lard  have  fallen  off  very  considerably  during  the  last  10  or  15 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3785 

years.  And  tobacco,  I  should  say,  perhaps  70  percent.  That  is,  up  to 
a  year  ago,  at  any  rate,  70  percent  was  consumed  in  this  country. 
The  percentages  going  to  foreign  markets  is  very  much  smaller  than 
they  were  15  or  10  years  ago. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Are  we  an  exporter  of  corn  normally  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Not  normally ;  no,  sir. 

LOSS   OF   FOREIGN    COTTON    MARKET 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  in  regard  to  this,  one  of  the  Representatives 
spoke  on  the  House  floor  Monday  of  this  week,  a  gentleman  from 
Mississippi,  a  cotton-producing  State,  and  he  stated  that  the  expan- 
sion of  the  production  of  cotton  in  Brazil  followed  immediately  the 
passage  of  the  cotton-reduction  legislation  in  the  United  States.  Is 
that  true  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  It  may  look  so,  sir.  I  don't  believe  that  the  obvious 
implication,  however,  is  entirely  correct,  namely,  that  there  is  an 
immediate  cause  and  effect  relationship  between  the  cotton  programs 
in  this  country  and  the  expansion  of  cotton  production  in  Brazil. 

In  part,  apparently,  Brazilian  farmers  were  encouraged  to  turn  to 
■cotton  growing  by  reason  of  their  difficulties  in  exporting  coffee.  In 
part,  and  this  holds  for  other  cotton-producing  areas  outside  of  the 
United  States  whose  production  has  been  increasing  in  recent  years, 
this  is  a  part  of  a. general  tendency  for  production  of  this  staple  in- 
crease in  low-cost  areas. 

Some  of  these  areas  produce  cotton  at  lower  prices  than  is  possible 
for  the  American  farmers. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Well,  our  export  cotton  business  is  practically  gone, 
is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  I  should  say  so ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  anticipate  that  we  will  regain  that  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Short  of  unforeseeable  developments  abroad,  I  don't 
think  so. 

Mr.  OsMERs.  Would  you  say.  Dr.  Schmidt,  that  the  use  of  substitute 
materials  for  cotton  has  been  a  contributing  factor  to  the  difficulties 
in  the  cotton  market? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir ;  it  has. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  I  am  thinking  principally  of  rayon  at  the  moment. 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir;  it  has  contributed  very  largely.  Of  course, 
in  certain  European  markets,  such  as  Germany  and  Italy,  it  has  con- 
tributed principally  to  a  shutting  off  of  our  markets. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  You  mean  the  drive  toAvard  self-sufficiency  on  the 
part  of  those  nations  has  driven  them  away  from  the  cotton  market. 
Is  it  also  true  that  a  contributing  factor  to  that  situation  was  our 
refusal  here  5  or  6  years  ago  to  take  our  usual  share  of  Germany's 
products? 

For  example,  was  that  a  contributing  factor  in  their  seeking  other 
sources  for  cotton  and  other  materials? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  I  am  not  informed  about  that  particularly  or  that 
specific  case,  but  I  would  say  that  in  general  the  barriers  that  we  have 
thrown  in  the  way  of  imports  from  foreign  countries  have  contributed 


3786  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

to  the  general  difficulties  of  our  farmers  and  particularly  our  cotton 
farmers. 

ACREAGE  REDUCTION  NOT  SATISFACTORY  TO  REDUCE  PRODUCTION 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  spoke  of  the  reduction  in  farm  production.  Do  you 
contend  that  acreage  reduction  is  a  successful  and  satisfactory  method 
of  reducing  production? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Experience  under  the  adjustment  program  seems  to 
indicate  to  the  contrary  in  general.  As  we  see  in  the  development 
of  our  agricultural  legislation  in  recent  years,  there  has  been  resort 
to  other  devices  for  restricting  production  or,  at  any  rate,  restricting 
the  marketing  of  crops. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Two  things  have  happened,  have  they  not?  One  of 
them  is  the  soil-conservation  practices  that  have  gone  along  with  the 
acreage  reduction,  plus  the  effort  to  make  the  farmer  a  better  farmer 
and  the  teaching  of  intensified  farming.  He  has  raised  more  bushels 
of  corn  in  many  instances  with  the  added  help  of  hybrid  corn  than 
they  did  a  few  years  before. 

Now,  in  reference  to  the  price  structure.  The  10-percent  excess  of 
wheat  that  we  produce  over  our  normal  consumption  is  determining 
the  price  of  the  entire  crop,  is  it  not?  Or  it  is  a  very  important 
factor  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  It  is  a  very  important  factor ;  yes,  sir. 

two-price  proposal 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  care  to  comment  upon  the  two-price  levels?  Do 
you  think  that  we  should  have  legislation  that  would  establish  a  just 
and  adequate  American  price  for  the  90  percent  of  the  wheat  consumed 
in  this  country  and  a  different  price  for  the  10  percent  that  is  surplus? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  The  fundamental  difficulty  in  the  way  of  the  two- 
price  proposal,  it  seems  to  me,  is  the  likelihood  of  retaliation  by  the 
very  people  to  whom  we  want  to  sell  this  excess  of  our  crops.  That 
is,  if  we  are  ready  to  go  ahead  and  dump  these  crops  at  any  price  they 
will  fetch  in  foreign  markets,  at  least  in  some  of  them  we  are  likely 
to  find  a  retaliation  in  the  way  of  counter-dumping. 

Mr.  Curtis.  We  are  virtually  doing  that  anyway,  aren't  we? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  We  are  doing  it  to  a  limited  extent ;  yes,  sir.  Despite 
the  avowed  opposition  of  our  governmental  agricultural  leaders,  we 
have  resorted  to  these  export  subsidies,  presumably  just  because  in  our 
desperation  nothing  else  seemed  to  promise  any  help  at  all. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  perhaps  should  not  have  mterrupted  you  when  you 
were  proceeding  with  your  statement. 

difficulties  in  staple  crop  agriculture 

Mr.  Schmidt.  I  think  I  was  discussing  t^ery  briefly  factors  of  demand 
that  have  been  tending  to  depress  farm  prices  in  addition  to  the 
tendency  of  population  growth  to  fall  off. 

There  have  been  changes  in  dietary  habits,  such  as  a  reduction  in 
the  per  capita  consumption  of  wheat  and  potatoes,  and  apparently  cer- 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3787 

tain  kinds  of  meat.  And  then  also  shifts  in  production  of  textiles 
away  from  nonagriciiltural  fibers  as  was  mentioned  a  few  moments 
ago. 

On  the  other  hand,  as  I  pointed  out  earlier,  farmers  have  tended  to 
go  on  producing  in  large  quantities.  A  fundamental  explanation  for 
this  continuing  flood  of  staple  crops  onto  our  markets  is  to  be  found 
in  the  mechanization  of  agriculture,  together  with  other  advances  in 
agricultural  techniques  that  have  been  taking  place  at  a  very  rapid 
rat«  during  the  past  generation,  and  particularly  rapid  during  the 
1920's,  and  again  within  the  last  5  or  6  years. 

There  are  various  estimates,  of  course,  with  respect  to  the  increase 
in  labor  productivity.  That  is  a  consequence  of  this  rise  in  the  pro- 
ductive efficiency  of  agriculture. 

One  estimate  has  it  that  the  average  farmer  and  farm  worker  in 
]  938  was  producing  something  like  50  percent  more  than  he  did  in  1909. 

There  are  even  more  impressive  examples  of  that  kind  of  thing,  but 
I  will  not  burden  the  record  with  them  here. 

Then,  finally,  among  these  factors  making  for  fundamental  diffi- 
culties in  staple-crop  agriculture  or  fundamental  difficulties,  at  any 
rate  for  the  people  in  the  various  staple-crop  industries,  are  certain 
influences  that  are  not  strictly  related  to  the  market. 

After  all,  a  great  many  of  these  people  get  only  a  part  of  their  income 
by  way  of  market  prices.  There  are  other  factors,  such  as  illiteracy, 
racial  and  social  prejudices,  and  cleavages,  farmers  working  on  poor 
soil  or  on  too  small  farms.  These  are  also  factors  that  should  be  borne 
in  mind  in  trying  to  understand  the  troubles  of  the  American  farm 
population  in  recent  years. 

Another  section  of  my  prepared  statement  is  concerned  with  agri- 
cultural policy  and  ])rograms  since  1932. 

I  don't  know  whether  you  care  for  me  to  discuss  them  briefly  again 
or  not. 

Mr.  Curtis.  We  would  be  very  happy  to  have  you  proceed. 

AGRICULTURAL  POLICY  AND    PROGRAMS   SINCE    1932 

Mr.  Schmidt.  In  brief  outline,  then,  it  can  be  said  that  the  agri- 
cultural adjustment  program  of  1933  to  1935  was  based  on  the  thesis 
that  in  view  of  these  difficulties  we  have  been  reviewing,  immediate 
help  to  farmers  in  the  way  of  higher  prices  and  higher  incomes  could 
be  obtained  only  by  efforts  to  curtail  market  supplies.  The  devices 
used  to  that  end  are  fairly  familiar.  The  Agricultural  Adjustment 
Administration  undertook  to  obtain  participation  by  farmers  in 
acreage  reductions  with  respect  to  the  major  crops  or  so-called  basic 
crops. 

Later  on,  so  far  as  cotton  and  tobacco  were  concerned,  it  passed  over 
to  a  measure  of  coercing  the  control  of  marketing  those  crops.  In 
return  for  their  participation  the  contracting  farmers  were  given 
benefit  payments  adjusted  in  proportion  to  the  cuts  in  acreage  or 
marketing  that  they  had  made. 

Certain  subsidiary  features  of  the  adjustment  program  of  those 
early  years,  I  think,  we  need  not  go  into  here. 


3788  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Early  in  1936  the  original  Adjustment  Act  was  invalidated  by  the 
Supreme  Court.  Congress  immediately  adopted  the  Soil  Conserva- 
tion and  Domestic  Allotment  Act,  which  in  effect  provided  for,  or 
seemed  to  provide  for,  an  indirect  means  of  attaining  somewhat  the 
same  end  as  had  been  desired  under  the  original  Adjustment  Act,, 
namely,  farmers  were  paid  for  shifting  their  acreage  from  so-called 
soil-depleting  crops  to  so-called  soil-conserving  crops. 

A  great  many  of  the  soil-depleting  crops  as  defined  by  the  Adjust- 
ment Administrator  included  the  staple  crops  or  basic  crops  that 
were  the  concern  primarily  of  the  first  adjustment  program. 

However,  this  soil-conservation  program  proved  to  be  quite  ineffec- 
tive in  restraining  large  production.  Serious  droughts  in  1936  held 
the  output  of  the  staples  down  to  relatively  low  levels.  But  in  1937 
there  were  tremendous  crops.  The  cotton  crop  in  that  year  was,  I 
believe,  the  largest  on  record,  with  the  consequence  that  prices  tumbled 
once  again  and  farm  income  along  with  jjrices. 

Early  in  1938  Congress  adopted  the  present  Agricultural  Adjust- 
ment Act,  which  incorporates  the  so-called  ever-normal-granary 
scheme. 

We  can  outline  the  general  nature  of  the  programs  under  this  legis- 
lation as  follows : 

First,  the  effort  at  soil  conservation  by  means  of  withdrawing  acre- 
age from  soil-depleting  crops.  Farmers  continue  to  be  paid  benefits 
for  such  performance. 

Furthermore,  farmers  are  offered  loans.  In  fact,  in  certain  cases 
loans  are  made  mandatory  to  enable  them  to  hold,  or  have  the  Gov- 
ernment hold  for  them,  part  of  a  current  surplus  of  any  of  certain  of 
these  staple  crops,  five  in  number,  according  to  the  1938  Adjustment 
Act. 

These  crops  are  held  in  storage  with  the  hope  that  in  a  subsequent 
season,  a  season  of  relatively  short  production,  it  will  be  possible  to 
release  them  at  more  satisfactory  prices  for  the  farmers  than  could 
have  been  obtained  if  all  of  them  had  been  sold  in  the  year  in  which 
they  were  produced. 

Furthermore,  under  certain  conditions  of  supply  and  compulsory 
marketing,  restrictions  may  be  instituted  for  the  five  basic  crops. 

This,  however,  is  subject  to  referenda  among  the  interested  farmers. 
If  one-third  of  the  farmers  voting  disapprove  of  a  compulsory  limita- 
tion or  marketing  of  a  particular  crop  in  a  certain  season,  then  no 
such  control  will  obtain. 

Furthermore,  the  act  breaks  new  ground  in  developing  a  system  of 
crop  insurance  for  wheat  farmers. 

It  is  this  so-called  agi-icultural-adjustment  program  that  has  been 
most  in  the  public  eye  in  recent  years.  However,  other  important 
measures  have  been  in  operation  during  the  years,  measures  that  are 
not  so  much  concerned  M^th  what  we  can  call  the  commercial  farmers 
as  they  are  with  our  noncommercial  farming  population. 

I  am  thinking  there,  of  course,  of  the  Farm  Security  Administration 
particularly— the  rehabilitation  loans,  the  tenant  farm  purchase  pro- 
gram, and  the  establishment  of  a  limited  number  of  cooperative  farm 
enterprises. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3789 

Furthermore — and  this,  of  course,  lias  received  a  good  deal  of  pub- 
licity quite  recently — for  some  time  the  Government  has  been  pur- 
chasing considerable  quantities  of  certain  farm  products  for  distribu- 
tion among  the  low  income  of  relief  people.  In  the  last  few  years  this 
has  taken  a  new  development  in  the  form  of  the  popular  food- 
stamp  plan. 

I  should  have  mentioned  a  little  earlier  the  very  important  programs 
with  regard  to  agricultural  credit  for  many  farmers  hard  pressed  by 
heavy  mortgage  debt. 

The  activities  of  the  Farm  Credit  Administration  in  recent  years 
have  been  the  most  important  kind  of  help  by  far  that  they  have 
received  from  the  Government. 

AGRICULTURAL  PROGRAMS  OF  LITTLE  BENEFIT  TO  AGRICULTURAL  WAGE 
WORKERS 

Now,  I  have  a  few  comments  further  in  my  statement  on  the  impact 
of  the  adjustment  programs  on  certain  elements  of  the  farm  population 
in  whom  you  are  particularly  interested,  namely,  agricultural  wage 
workers,  croppers,  and  tenants. 

First  of  all,  we  can  say  that  tenants  and  sharecroppers  have  certainly 
received  few  benefits  from  the  adjustment  programs.  A  good  many  of 
them  probably  have  been  harmed  by  the  direct  or  indirect  impact  of 
these  programs. 

Agricultural  laborers  by  and  large,  we  can  say,  have  received  no 
benefits  at  all.  In  fact,  the  incident  of  the  adjustment  programs  has 
actually  worsened  conditions  for  them,  while  other  segments  of  our 
wage-working  population  have  received  increasing  guaranties,  such  as 
measures  intended  to  restrict  working  hours,  miniinum  guaranteed 
wages,  guaranties  for  collective  bargaining,  and  the  like. 

The  agricultural  wage  workers  have  received  nothing  of  that  sort. 
There  has  been  a  tendency  popularly  to  attribute  a  very  large  amount 
of  unemployment  among  agricultural  workers — and  here  I  include 
sharecroppers  and  tenants  in  the  South — to  the  agricultural  program. 

It  seems  to  me  that  the  story  is  not  quite  so  simple  as  that.  That  is, 
it  is  not  possible  to  say  that  the  adjustment  progi'ams  have  led  directly 
to  a  large  measure  of  unemployment. 

There  is  no  doubt  that  in  a  good  many  cases  they  have  done  so.  But 
by  and  large,  I  think,  we  can  say  that  the  great  and  growing  difficulties 
of  farm  workers,  croppers,  and  tenants  have  been  a  consequence  of  the 
onrush  of  farm  mechanization. 

However,  the  agricultural-adjustment  programs  certainly  have  con- 
tributed to  that  mechanization  and  particularly  in  the  cotton  South. 
It  looks  to  me  as  if  that  has  worked  something  like  this :  For  one  thing, 
the  benefit  payments — cash  payments  made  by  the  A.  A.  A.  to  land- 
lords— ^have  given  them  the  means  with  which  to  buy  all  sorts  of  farm 
machinery. 

Furthermore,  they  have  had  a  very  real  incentive  to  shift  from  a 
sharecropper  to  a  wage-laborer  basis,  and  that  is  again  by  reason  of 
the  A.  A.  A.  benefit  payments. 


3790  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

If  a  planter  has  sharecroppers  working  liis  land  he  must  divide  his 
benefit  payments  with  them.  That  is,  they  receive  their  proportionate 
share  of  their  contribution  to  the  proceeds  from  the  sale  of  the  cotton. 
Hence,  here  we  have  a  very  real  incentive  given  to  landlords  to  hire 
these  people  by  the  day  at  so  many  dollars  and  cents  and  keep  the  whole 
of  these  benefit  payments  for  themselves. 

Furthermore,  we  should  note  that  in  general,  as  the  price  of  cotton 
rises,  there  is  a  tendency,  or  has  been  a  tendency  for  many  years,  for 
landlords  to  shift  from  a  cropper  basis  to  a  wage- worker  basis,  and  the 
reason  for  that  is  essentially  the  same  as  I  have  just  outlined  in  con- 
nection with  the  division  of  A.  A.  A.  benefit  payments. 

So  operating  in  this  indirect  way,  at  any  rate,  I  think  it  can  be  said, 
and  not  unfairly,  that  the  adjustment  programs  have  contributed  very 
considerably  to  growing  unemployment  or  virtual  unemployment  and 
particularly  in  the  cotton  South. 

Now,  a  few  comments  with  regard  to  the  democratic  character  of 
triple-A  procedures,  especially  procedures  in  the  field. 

Certain  exponents  of  these  adjustment  programs  have  made  a  great 
deal  of  what  they  call  the  "farmers'  democracy" — a  farmers'  democracy 
which  is  the  guiding  hand  in  the  application,  and,  in  fact,  in  the  gen- 
eral operation  of  the  programs. 

This  farmers'  democracy  is  supposed  to  rest  basically  upon  the  local 
committees — general  county  commitees  of  farmers,  which  committees 
are  concernecl  in  general  with  the  various  details  of  application  of  the 
adjustment  programs  to  their  particular  localities. 

In  the  early  years  of  the  adjustment  programs  it  is  pretty  clear  that 
a  good  many  of  these  committees — certainly  not  all,  but  a  good  many 
of  them,  especially  in  the  South — were  anything  but  representative  of 
all  of  the  farmers  in  their  particular  localities. 

A  great  many  of  the  committeemen  in  those  years  were  chosen  by 
county  agents,  and  for  rather  obvious  reasons  these  county  agents  were 
very  often  inclined  to  pick  as  committeemen  outstanding  farmers  or 
the  wealthier  farmers  in  their  communities. 

Under  the  present  regulation  there  is  specific  provision  that  the  com- 
mitteemen are  to  be  elected  by  all  of  the  participating  farmers,  and 
I  believe  "farmer"  in  this  case  is  defined  so  as  to  include  sharecroppers 
and  tenants. 

However,  there  is  evidence — and  I  must  admit  it  is  rather  scattered 
evidence — that  over  a  considerable  area  in  the  cotton  South  especially 
the  provision  I  just  mentioned  remains  pretty  much  a  dead  letter. 

It  has  been  reported,  for  example,  that  in  a  good  many  counties 
tenants  and  sharecroppers  have  never  even  heard  of  such  a  provision. 

I  might  say  here  that  it  is  unfortunate  that  we  don't  have  more  satis- 
factory and  more  complete  information  on  the  matter  of  county  com- 
mittees under  the  triple  A,  their  composition,  and  how  they  operate. 

Then,  finally,  the  prepared  statement  is  concerned  with  certain  broad 
generalizations  about  the  outlook  for  American  agriculture  in  the  next 
few  years  or  even  in  the  next  several  decades. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3791 

OUTLOOK  FOR  AGRICULTURE 

We  have  already  touched  on  that  earlier.  I  think  I  have  little  more 
to  add  on  that  point  except  that  the  present  European  war,  of  course, 
has  darkened  the  outlook  still  further.  It  is  hard  to  conceive  of  a 
restoration,  even  on  a  small  scale,  of  our  markets  for  cotton  in  European 
countries  or  even  for  a  sizable  restoration  of  our  markets  for  certain 
other  crops  after  the  end  of  the  war.  That  is  chiefly  because  the  in- 
comes of  the  peoples  in  belligerent  countries  will  be  reduced,  and  the 
further  possibility,  perhaps  a  probability  even,  that  the  spirit  of  eco- 
nomic nationalism  will  be  even  stronger  than  it  has  been  in  the  past. 

I  think  it  can  be  said  that  a  number  of  alternatives  confront  usi 
with  respect  to  our  agriculture  and  farm  people.  Either  large  num- 
bers of  them  must  sink  into  even  deeper  poverty  or  large  numbers 
must  leave  the  farms,  or  there  must  be  continuing  and  perhaps  even 
larger  subsidies  for  our  farm  population. 

I  don't  mean  to  pose  these  as  completely  separate  alternatives.  Life, 
it  seems  to  me,  is  not  quite  so  simple.  What  we  can  expect,  no  doubt, 
is  something  of  each  of  these  tendencies.  There  will  be  farmers  who 
find  the  going  ever  more  difficult  and  will  sink  into  deeper  poverty. 
Others  will  leave  their  farms  and  take  jobs  in  towns  and  cities. 

And  I  think  in  any  case,  no  matter  what  the  political  complexion, 
we  can  expect  to  see  continued  subsidies  to  our  farmers.  But  it  is  in 
the  relative  degree  in  which  these  alternatives  develop  that  we  can 
expect  to  see  some  possible  diiferences  resulting  from  whatever  farm 
policy  we  apply  in  the  coming  years. 

Unless  our  national  income  rises  to  considerably  greater  levels  than 
in  the  last  10  years  or  even  in  the  1920's,  it  is  difficult  to  see  how  large 
numbers  of  our  farmers  can  escape  very  serious  poverty  short  of  much 
greater  subsidies  than  the  Government  has  been  prepared  to  offer  so 
far. 

On  the  other  hand,  a  marked  rise  in  national  income,  primarily  by 
reason  of  increasing  production  of  nonf  arm  industries,  would  open  up 
sizable  opportunities  for  farm  people  to  migrate  from  the  rural  regions 
to  the  towns  and  cities. 

At  the  same  time  such  a  rise  in  industrial  production  would  do  some- 
thing, at  least,  to  stinndate  the  domestic  demand  for  a  good  many  farm 
products.  Although  liere,  unfortunately,  I  think  we  would  have  to 
admit  that  a  rise  in  national  income  would  tend  to  increase  the  demand 
for  fruits  and  vegetables  and  dairy  products  and  certain  nonstaple 
products  a  good  deal  more  than  it  would  the  demand  for  cotton  and 
wheat  and  possibly  even  corn-hog  products  or  certain  corn-hog  prod- 
ucts. 

Now,  some  people  see  this  as  the  most  desirable  solution  for  our 
major  farm  difficulties.  Others,  however,  insist  that  any  great  reduc- 
tion of  our  farm  population  would  be  a  national  calamity.  They  in- 
sist on  that  because  they  see  certain  fundamental  social  virtues  in  farm 
life  that  are  lost  in  the  towns  and  cities.  And  their  argument  then, 
when  it  is  intelligently  put,  looks  toward  a  continuing  subsidization  of 
certain  types  of  agriculture. 


QyQ2  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

I  say  when  it  is  intelligently  put  to  rule  out  arguments  that  say 
any  kind  of  a  subsidy  will  do  the  trick,  because  obviously  maintain- 
ing people  in  agriculture  on  living  levels  that  are  below  our  notions 
oAlecent  living,  or  maintaining  other  kinds  of  people  in  agriculture, 
as,  for  example,  large-scale  operators  or  operators  of  factory  farms, 
who  obviously  do  not  represent  these  alleged  rural  virtues,  would 
not  obtain  the  end  that  is  desired  by  this  particular  group  of  students 
of  farm  problems. 

What  they  would  like  to  see  is  public  measures  designed  to  main- 
tain what  we  call  the  "family  farm" — the  farm  that  is  large  enough 
to  provide  a  secure  living  for  a  single  family  but  not  too  large  to 
enable  them  to  manage  the  farm  by  themselves.  A  fundamental 
part  of  that  concept  of  family  farm,  of  course,  is  ownership  of  the 
farm  property  by  the  operating  family. 

In  conclusion  I  would  say  tl\at  our  farm  problem  is  pretty  clearly 
part  and  parcel  of  our  national  economic  problem.  That  is,  we 
cannot  properly  separate  the  farm  problem  from  the  general  problem 
of  producing  more  goods,  providing  more  security  for  all  of  our 
people.  In  the  end  our  farmers  will  be  saved  either  on  the  farms 
or  by  giving  them  opportunities  to  go  to  towns  and  cities  by  what- 
ever we  can  do  to  raise  the  general  well-being  of  our  people. 

That  concludes  the  summary  of  the  statement. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Mr.  Schmidt,  you  spoke  of  the  democratic  processes 
in  the  selection  of  county  committees  on  the  farm  program. 

At  the  present  time  the  State  committees  are  appointed  by  the 
Secretary  of  Agriculture.  Do  you  care  to  comment  upon  the  propo- 
sition as  to  whether  or  not  that  should  be  changed  so  that  someone 
back  in  the  States,  either  the  county  committees  or  a  committee  of 
them  select  the  State  committees  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  I  am  not  prepared  to  discuss  the  details  of  proposed 
changes  in  legislation  with  regard  to  farm  county  committees.  I 
would  say,  however,  that  it  seems  to  me  that  legislative  action  is 
likely  to  be  little  more  than  superficial  for  a  thing  of  this  kind. 

That  is,  if  what  we  are  concerned  with  is  truly  a  large  measure 
of  democracy  in  the  operation  of  these  farm  programs  it  seems  to 
me  it  must  come  about  fundamentally  in  the  same  way  we  expect 
it  to  develop  in  our  general  body  politic. 

I  would  say  that  economic  security  is  an  essential  of  political 
democracy.  Furthermore,  obviously  education  must  have  a  great 
deal  to  do  with  a  developing  democracy,  whether  we  are  talking 
about  it  generally  or  in  terms  of  the  farm  programs. 

Furthermore,  we  must  not  overlook  the  fact  that  many  of  these 
difficulties,  these  apparent  injustices  in  the  working  out  of  the  agri- 
cultural adjustment  programs,  are  not  really  the  responsibility  of 
that  program  per  se. 

The  program  has  operated  within  a  given  system,  a  system  which 
includes  such  institutions  as  vicious  forms  of  tenancy,  exorbitant 
farm  credit  practices,  deep-seated  social  cleavages,  especially  in  the 
cotton  South. 

The  adjustment  administration  could  hardly  be  expected  to  go 
very  far  in  the  course  of  a  few  years  in  doing  much  about  difficulties 
of  tliat  kind,  difficulties  that  have  been  in  the  making  for  generations. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3793 

FARMERS  AS  CONSUMERS  OF  INDUSTRIAL  PRODUCTS 

Mr.  Curtis.  This  was  not  covered  in  your  paper,  but  would  you 
say  that  farmers  as  a  class  are  j^ood  customers  for  our  industrial 
sections  when  they  have  the  purchasing-  power? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  It  certainly  seems  to  me,  judging  by  the  evidence 
in  1933  and  1934.  The  evidence  in  the  form  of  sales  of  mail-order 
houses  and  automobile  sales  and  transportation  in  the  rural  regions, 
bank  deposits  and  the  like,  that  is,  as  soon  as  they  began  to  receive 
their  benefit  payments  in  the  adjustment  programs,  shows  a  very 
rapid  rise  in  business  in  those  country  districts. 

Mr.  Curtis.  It  is  true,  is  it  not,  that  over  a  period  of  years  the 
factory  pay  rolls  in  this  country  ran  parallel  with  the  farm  income? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  if  there  is  an  increase  in  the  farm  income  there 
is  shown  a  corresponding  increase  in  factory  payrolls  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir. 

future  of  farm  chemurgy 

Mr.  Curtis.  Do  you  liave  any  comment  to  make  upon  the  farm 
chemurgy — the  industrial  use  of  farm  products? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir.  It  is  possible  to  foresee  a  day  when  a 
^reat  many  commodities  will  find  uses  as  raw  materials  for  industry, 
many  more  uses  than  they  have  at  the  present  time.  But  we  must 
keep  in  mind  that  processes  of  this  kind  are  generally  very  slow  in 
their  development.  There  must  be  not  only  the  technical  research 
necessary  to  finding  new  uses,  but  there  must  also  be  realization  on 
the  part  of  industrial  enterprises  that  a  shift-over  to  such  raw 
materials  is  commercially  feasible  and  desirable.  It  is  a  process  that 
must  at  best  take  a  considerable  time  and  must  move  quite  slowly. 

Mr.  Curtis.  For  instance,  there  has  been  great  scientific  advance- 
ment in  using  various  plants  and  farm  products  in  the  making  of 
small  articles  such  as  the  products  of  the  DuPont  Co.  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  it  will  recpire,  as  you  say,  a  use  of  those  to  the 
extent  that  mass  production  will  be  feasible. 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Something  vastly  greater  than  that  exists  at  the 
present  time.  I  would  perhaps  go  even  farther  and  say  that  although 
such  a  development  would  certainly  help  we  cannot  expect  that  it 
will  go  very  far  toward  raising  the  demand  for  farm  products  suffi- 
ciently to  keep  all  the  people  we  now  have  on  tlie  land — at  any  rate, 
keep  them  on  the  land  and  using  up-to-date  technique. 

Mr.  Curtis.  It  is  predicted  at  the  present  time  that  soon  we  will 
have  automobile  bodies,  particularly  fenders  and  things  of  that  sort, 
made  out  of  plastics  made  of  soybeans. 

If  that  comes  about,  and  is  extended  to  vehicle  bodies  and  street- 
-car  bodies  and  the  like,  that  may  materially  affect  the  supply  of  a^i- 
cultural  products,  might  it  not? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes;  it  may  do  so.  It  is  very  hard  to  say.  Of 
course,  however,  it  can  go  toward  strengthening  demand  funda- 
mentally. 


3794  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

COSTS  OF  PRODUCTION 

Mr,  Curtis.  Now,  in  reference  to  the  dispensing  of  surplus  products^ 
whether  it  be  through  a  surphis-commodity  corporation  or  whether 
it  be  through  the  stamp  plan  or  what-not,  the  products  of  labor  so 
dispensed  are  not  required  to  be  contributed  at  a  lower  price  than 
the  ordinary  price  for  similar  labor,  are  they  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Products  of  industrial  labor? 

Mr.  Curtis.  Perhaps  my  question  is  quite  confusing.  Assuming 
that  blankets  are  given  away  as  surplus  articles,  the  labor  that  goes 
into  the  making  of  those  blankets  is  based  on  a  regular  American 
wage,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  So  I  understand. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Now,  the  food  products  that  are  distributed  through 
the  stamp  plan  and  under  other  similar  plans  are  still  produced  at 
the  regular  cost  of  production;  is  that  not  right? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  That  is  very  difficult  to  answer,  because  cost  of  pro- 
duction is  so  varied,  you  know. 

In  agriculture  we  have  a  tremendous  range  of  costs.  There  are 
farmers  who  could  make  money,  doubtless,  at  prices  even  lower  than 
those  that  have  been  prevailing  in  recent  years  or  prices  prevailing 
during  the  depression.  On  the  other  hand,  there  are  farmers  in  agri- 
culture who  could  not  break  even  if  prices  were  twice  as  high  as  they 
have  been. 

It  is  a  little  bit  difficult  to  answer  your  question.  In  broad  generali- 
zation I  would  say  that  some  of  those  products  doubtless  are  being 
purchased  at  prices  that  do  not  enable  the  farmers  to  live  very  well. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Hogs  are  very  low  at  the  present  time.  A  ITS-jwund 
bacon  hog  out  in  my  country  will  bring  only  $9.  The  American  far- 
rner  is  feeding  probably  a  relief  load  with  articles  that  at  the  present 
time  returns  him  less  money  than  he  can  produce  them  for. 

That  is  the  point  I  am  getting  at.  Maybe  while  we  are  moving 
some  of  the  surplus,  yet  we  are  moving  it  at  a  price  that  returns  the 
farmer  his  cost  and  that  he  is  entitled  to. 

That  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  would  like  to  ask  one  question. 

Mr.  Schmidt,  in  your  prepared  statement  you  say  that  industrialism 
has  brought  poverty  and  disguised  unemployment  to  the  farmers. 

What  do  you  mean  by  the  term  "disguised  unemployment"? 

disguised  unemployment 

Mr.  Schmidt.  I  use  it  in  rather  a  loose  sense  to  refer  to  people  living 
on  farms  who  appear  to  be  occupied  or  who  go  through  the  motions  of 
work,  at  least  now  and  then,  but  who  really  are  not  producing  anything 
significant.  For  example,  young  people  backed  up  on  farms  who 
would  be  migrating  to  the  cities  if  there  were  jobs  available  for  them. 

They  help  around  the  place  but  really  are  not  contributing  any- 
thing to  the  family  income— anything  consequential. 

Another  way  of  putting  it  is  to  say  that  our  notions  of  unemploy- 
ment, generally,  are  of  an  urban  nature.  We  think  of  people  on  the 
street  m  soup  lines  and  that  sort  of  thing. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3795 

This  term  "virtual  unemployment"  or  rather  "disguised  unemploy- 
ment" is  merely  intended  to  refer  to  the  people  who  are  jobless  in  a 
realistic  sense,  on  our  farms;  who  do  manage  to  have  a  roof  over  their 
heads  perhaps,  and  something  to  eat,  but  who  are  contributing  little,  if 
anything,  to  the  national  income. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  the  concluding  part  of  your  statement  you  also 
suggest  that  subsidies  to  agriculture  may  be  desirable  if  we  believe 
there  are  inherent  social  values  in  farm  life. 

I  wonder  if  you  would  elaborate  a  little  on  that  ? 

VALUE  OF  SUBSIDIZING  FARM  LIFE 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir.  It  can  be  argued  after  all  that  farm  life 
has  certain  inherent  values,  values  not  only  for  the  farm  people  them- 
selves, but  for  the  whole  Nation. 

It  is  argued  by  some  that  farm  life  is  liealthier  in  a  physical  sense 
as  well  as  moral  sense ;  that  it  is  more  stable  socially ;  that  the  relations 
of  people  one  to  the  other  are  more  solid  in  agriculture. 

Furthermore,  it  is  argued  by  some  that  the  difference  in  birth 
rates  between  our  rural  population  and  our  urban  population  should 
make  us  concerned  about  maintaining  a  sizeable  farm  population. 

There  are  very  marked  differences  in  those  birth  rates.  An  expert 
of  the  Department  of  Agriculture  estimates  that  100  years  from  now 
the  descendants  of  our  present  rural  population  will  have  some- 
where between  5  and  10  times  as  many  descendants  as  our  present 
urban  population. 

Now,  the  point  is  that  at  least  stability  of  population,  perhaps 
even  a  growing  population,  is  of  importance  to  national  strength — 
national  virility — and  that,  therefore,  public  policy  addressed  to 
the  maintenance  of  a  large  or  at  any  rate  a  sizeable  rural  population 
is  very  important. 

Mr.  Parsons.  When  you  say  "a  sizeable  population,"  do  you  mean 
by  that  we  should  have  as  large  a  farm  population  as  possible,  or 
just  what  do  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  I  think  there  would  be  no  difficulty  in  agreeing 
that  we  should  not  have  more  people  in  agriculture  than  can  be 
miaintained  on  adequate  living  levels.  Of  course,  there  may  be 
some  difference  of  opinion  as  to  the  meaning  of  "adequate  living." 

I  would  like  to  note  here  that  there  may  be  some  elements  of 
living  in  the  country  on  farms  that  are  not  measurable  in  material 
terms,  even  less  so  in  monetary  terms,  such  as  life  in  the  out-of- 
doors,  at  least  to  a  larger  extent  than  people  in  the  cities  can  afford, 
freedom  from  noise  and  dirt  and  from  various  ills  of  the  large 
metropolitan  communities. 

But,  returning  more  specifically  to  your  question:  It  can  be  said, 
I  think,  that  at  the  very  most  we  don't  want  more  people  to  stay  on 
the  farms  than  can  live  satisfactorily  there.  That,  of  course,  is 
ultimately  a  question  for  those  people  themselves  to  determine, 
whether  they  want  to  stay  there  or  go  elsewhere.  Certainly  it  is  not 
for  the  professor  or  social  worker  or  economist  to  say  how  many 
should  stay  there  or  how  many  should  go  to  the  city. 


260370 — 41 — pt.  9- 


3796  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Parsons.  Now,  just  one  other  question.  You  may  have  an- 
swered this.     If  so,  I  did  not  catch  it. 

In  your  paper  you  say  that  early  in  the  present  administration 
sufficient  stimulation  was  not  given  to  the  consumption  of  farm 
products.    Is  that  still  true  or  has  it  been  changed  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  There  has  been  a  great  stimulation,  of  course,  by 
the  programs  of  the  Department  of  Agriculture,  most  particularly 
in  the  last  few  years  in  the  form  of  the  food-stamp  plan. 

I  would  say  that  it  is  possible  to  go  still  further  in  that  direction 
but  probably  not  very  much  further. 

The  limits  of  that  kind  of  program,  after  all,  are  set  by  the  size 
of  the  relief  population,  unless  we  are  prepared  to  go  beyond  that 
and  to  break  into  our  ordinary  commercial  system  of  distributing 
food  products  and  other  agricultural  products. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is  all. 

The  Chairman.  Dr.  Schmidt,  I  do  not  know  very  much  about 
farming  but  as  I  read  about  it  sometimes  it  has  changed  considerably 
from  the  early  days. 

I  have  read  that  85  percent  of  our  people  used  to  live  on  farms. 
At  that  time  the  idea  of  corporate  commercialized  farming  was  not 
known.  Their  object  then  was  the  raising  of  vegetables  and  suffi- 
cient foods  to  support  the  family. 

Now,  we  are  down  to  about  25  percent,  they  tell  me,  or  30  percent. 

My  wife  is  of  a  family  of  12.  Her  father  raised  those  12  children 
on  a  farm.  But  from  your  paper,  and  from  what  you  have  said, 
the  prosperity  of  agriculture  depends  upon  the  rise  and  fall  of  our 
consuming  and  purchasing  power;  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  In  other  words,  agriculture  does  not  stand  out 
there  alone? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  the  way  it  is  today  anyway.  It  depends 
upon  the  purchasing  and  the  consuming  power  of  the  country,  and 
that  is  what  I  am  getting  up  to  in  my  question. 

I  read  many  times,  too,  that  if  our  purchasing  power — the  consum- 
ing power  in  this  country — was  normal,  we  could  consume  90  percent 
of  the  products  of  our  farms  and  therefore  would  only  have  to 
worry  about  the  10  percent  which  we  hear  so  much  about  in  foreign 
trade;  and,  unquestionably.  Doctor,  we  have  got  to  give  great 
thought  to  that. 

The  way  the  war  is  going,  and  the  way  affairs  are  over  in  the  old 
country,  we  must  give  great  thought  to  it. 

I  remember  reading  a  column  written  by  Arthur  Brisbane  before 
he  died.  He  used  to  repeat  it.  Maybe  you  can  tell  us  about  it.  He 
said  that  Texas  alone,  if  extensively  cultivated,  could  feed  this  Nation. 
Do  you  think  it  could  ? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  I  think  we  might  envision  such  a  possibility  in  the 
very  distant  future,  although  it  is  true  that  certain  students  of  that 
sort  of  thing  insist  that  even  now  with  present  technique — that  is 
with  the  most  advanced  farming  technique — it  would  be  possible  for 
two  or  three  million  farmers  to  produce  as  much,  at  least,  as  nearly 
7,000,000  are  producing  today. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3797 

The  Chairman.  Dr.  Schmidt,  you  are  ^v^itino•  a  book  now  entitled 
*'The  Last  Seven  Years  of  Agriculture." 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Is  that  why  you  are  on  leave  from  Columbia 
University? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  No,  sir ;  it  is  not. 

The  Chairman.  When  will  that  book  be  published,  Doctor? 

Mr.  Schmidt.  Early  next  year ;  I  think  in  February. 

The  Chairman.  Is  there  anything  else  ? 

Mr.  Parsons.  That  is  all.  ^[ 

Mr.  OsMERS.  Nothing  else. 

The  Chairman.  Doctor,  I  want  to  thank  you  on  behalf  of  the 
committee  for  your  very  able  presentation  and  your  exceedingly  val- 
uable contribution  that  you  have  given  us  today. 

Mr.  Schmidt.  I  am  very  glad  to  have  been  of  help. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Ferris. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  P.  FERRIS,  DIRECTOR,  COMMERCE  DEPART- 
MENT OF  THE  TENNESSEE  VALLEY  AUTHORITY,  KNOXVILLE, 
TENN. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Ferris,  vou  are  director  of  commerce  depart- 
ment of  T.  V.  A.  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  That  is  right,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  what  is  your  address  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  Knoxville,  Tenn. 

The  Chairman.  And  your  headquarters  are  where  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  Knoxville,  Tenn. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Ferris,  Congressman  Sparkman  of  Alabama, 
an  expert  himself  on  this  subject  you  are  going  to  discuss,  will 
interrogate  you. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Ferris,  your  official  title  is  director  of  com- 
merce department  of  T.  V.  A. ;  is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  That  is  true. 

Mr  Sparkman.  I  wonder  if  for  the  benefit  of  the  record  you  will 
state  briefly  your  qualifications. 

Mr.  Ferris.  I  am  a  mechanical  engineer.  Most  of  my  work  has 
been  in  industry.  Until  8  years  ago  I  was  chief  engineer  of  the  Oil 
Gear  Co.  in  Milwaukee,  Wis. 

In  1932  I  served  as  secretary  of  the  business  economics  committee 
of  the  executive  council  to  the  Governor  of  the  State  of  Wisconsin. 

Later  I  served  as  secretary  to  the  land-use  committee  of  that  same 
executive  council. 

That  land-use  executive  committee,  by  the  way,  had  to  do  with  the 
formulation  of  land-use  plans,  particularly  in  connection  with 
forest-land  use. 

The  business  economics  committee  made  studies  of  the  oppor- 
tunities for  local  industry  in  the  State  of  Wisconsin,  based  on  the 
utilization  of  the  natural  resources  that  occurred  there. 

For  the  last  year  and  a  half  I  have  been  occupied  in  my  present 
position,  and  prior  to  that  for  2  years  I  was  director  of  the  agricul- 
tural industries  department  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority. 


3798 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Mr.  Sparkman.  At  that  time  who  was  director  of  the  commerce 
department  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  There  was  no  commerce  department  of  the  T.  V.  A.  at 
that  time. 

Mr.  Spark:man.  In  other  words  that  department  was  formed  and 
you  became  the  director  of  it? 

Mr.  Ferris.  That  is  not  quite  correct.  There  was  no  commerce  de- 
partment at  the  time  that  I  occupied  the  first  described  position.  It 
was  formed  at  the  time  Mr.  J.  Hayden  Aldridge  resigned  his 
position  with  the  Authority  and  took  the  appointment  as  Commis- 
sioner on  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission. 

Then  the  two  departments  were  merged  into  the  present  depart- 
ment of  which  I  am  the  director. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Now,  you  have  presented  us  with  a  rather  lengthy 
and  very  full  and  valuable  statement. 

I  don't  suppose  any  one  of  us  has  read  it  in  full.  I  have  scanned 
it.  I  have  read  the  digest  of  it  that  has  been  presented.  I  shall 
ask  the  chairman  at  this  time  if  the  statement  may  go  into  the  record,, 
as  a  part  of  Mr.  Ferris'  testimony. 

The  Chairman.  The  reporter  will  include  it  in  the  record. 

(The  statement  referred  to  is  as  follows :) 

STATEMENT  OF  .lOHN  P.  FERRIS,  DIRECTOR,  COMMERCE  DEPARTMENT 
OF  T.  V.  A.,  KNOXVILLE,  TENNESSEE 

Relationship  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  Altthority  Pbogkam  to  the  Interstate 
Migration  Problem 

i.  the  migrant  problem  and  its  background 

The  dominant  cause  in  the  interstate  migration  of  destitute  citizens  today,  as 
in  other  migrations  of  the  past,  is  unquestionably  the  search  for  greater  economic 
opportunities. 

Between  present  and  past  migrations,  however,  there  is  one  important  distinc- 
tion. In  an  earlier  period  of  our  national  history,  industrial  laborers  from 
Europe  migrated  to  this  country  in  search  of  the  opportunity  to  earn  a  living. 
The  population  of  the  Original  Thirteen  Colonies  increased.  People  began  mov- 
ing westward.  As  the  tempo  of  the  industrial  revolution  quickened,  and  with 
added  immigration  from  Europe,  this  drive  for  new  opportunities  and  economic 
security  in  the  lands  west  of  the  Alleghenies  continued  as  the  primary  means  by 
which  people  could  escape  from  the  maladjustments  of  an  industrial  society  still 
little  understood.  For  many  years  these  migrations  were  of  no  critical  signifi- 
cance. Fertile  lands  in  the  West  were  abundant.  Furthermore,  the  movement 
of  people  to  new  lands  was  in  general  healthy  and  necessary  to  the  development 
of  the  Nation  and  to  a  rising  standard  of  living.  By  the  close  of  the  nineteenth 
century,  however,  the  land  and  forest  frontier  had  almost  disappeared  and  most 
of  the  lands  suitable  for  cropping  and  grazing  were  settled  and  farmed. 

Today,  although  the  western  land  frontier  has  for  some  time  practically  ceased 
to  exist,  the  population  of  the  Nation  continues  to  increase  at  the  rate  of 
approximately  1,000,000  persons  per  year.  At  the  same  time,  the  structure  of 
our  industrial  economy  has  not  been  adjusted  to  the  point  where  each  person 
can  be  assured  of  an  opportunity  to  earn  a  living.  Insecure  people  have  not 
forgotten  the  pioneer  tradition  of  migration  in  search  of  economic  opportunity. 
They  migrate  today  essentially  for  the  same  reason  that  they  did  yesterday.  The 
principal  difterence  is  that  while  they  once  migrated  to"  new  and  unoccupied 
lands,  they  are  now  forced  to  move  into  areas  which  are  already  settled  and 
there  compete  with  others  who  are  also  trying  to  make  a  living.  Migration 
which  was  once  predominantly  in  a  western  direction  to  undeveloped  lands  has- 
today  become  general  interstate  migration  in  a  relatively  closed  land  economy. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3799 

The  motivating  force  behind  such  movements  continues  to  be  that  of  a  search  for 
economic  opportunity. 

The  central  problem  is  thus  largely  one  of  creating  new  economic  opportuni- 
ties within  the  existing  area  of  the  Nation  and  the  political  and  social  structure 
of  its  economy.  Only  by  providing  greater  economic  security  to  citizens  in  all 
parts  of  the  Nation  and  a  chance  to  share  in  the  income  standard  of  the 
American  way  of  life  can  excessive  interstate  migrations  to  prevented  or  even 
substantially  reduced. 

THE  tennessb:e  valley  area  as  a  region  of  migrant  origin 

The  committee  no  doubt  will  receive  a  great  deal  of  evidence  concerning  the 
conditions  which  have  led  the  valley  area,  as  well  as  the  South  as  a  whole,  to 
become  a  region  of  migrant  origin.  These  conditions  are  summed  up  in  the 
following  paragraphs  extracted  from  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  manuscript 
Regional  Development  in  the  Tennessee  Valley : 

"A  variety  of  causes  have  been  ascribed  for  the  failure  of  the  South  and  the 
valley  to  adjust  properly  to  its  natural  heritage  and  thus  to  attain  higher  stand- 
ards of  economic  and  social  well-being.  These  include  the  interblended  facts 
of  history  and  region,  such  as  the  tragedies  of  the  reconstruction  period,  the 
conditions  surrounding  the  cotton  economy,  the  special  regional  penalties  result- 
ing from  national  tariff  policies,  the  lack  of  capital  and  credit  within  the  region 
to  take  advantage  of  technology  and  to  promote  balanced  development,  the  long 
persistence  of  a  raw-material  economy,  special  health  and  dietary  problems,  and 
regional  inequalities  in  rail  freight  rates. 

"Perhaps  outstanding  among  these  facts  has  been  the  general  nature  of  the 
regional  economy  which  has  prevailed,  and  still  largely  remains,  in  the  South 
and  in  the  valley.  This  economy  is  characterized  by  the  shipment  of  the  raw 
materials  of  the  land,  the  mine,  and  the  forest  out  of  the  region  to  come  back 
into  the  region  over  tariff  walls  and  costly  transport  cliannels — less  in  quantity 
and  higher  in  price  as  processed  goods.  'The  economy  of  the  peasant,  the 
miner,  the  fisherman,  the  forester  draws  a  certain  minimum  return,  while 
manufacturing,  distribution,  management,  and  finance  furnish  higher  incomes.' 
To  support  an  increasing  population,  the  extractive  economy  must  make  'fresh 
and  continuous  excursions'  into  its  capital  wealth — 1.  e.,  its  raw  resources. 
Overexploitation  of  resources  follows  without  the  accumulation  of  capital  goods 
to  take  their  place.  Obviously,  this  is  not  a  stable  basis  even  for  the  continuance 
of  the  relatively  low  standard  of  living  afforded  by  an  extractive  economy  at  its 
best.  In  the  valley,  several  major  natural  resources  reached  their  peak  of 
exploitation  about  1910.  However,  no  provisions  had  been  made  for  this  even- 
tuality. And  like  a  business  concern  which  refuses  to  recognize  the  depreciation 
of  its  capital  assets,  the  valley  was,  long  before  the  depression  gripped  the 
country  in  1929,  fighting  for  existence  and  opportunity  to  readjust.  The  dilemma 
that  eventually  confronts  a  purely  raw-material  economy  is  of  more  than  re- 
gional consequence.  Proper  public  services  such  as  education  cannot  be  sup- 
ported on  an  adequate  scale.  Migration  becomes  pronounced,  as  birth  rates 
remain  relatively  high.  Poor  training  and  lack  of  education  go  along  with  the 
migrating  people,  and  the  region's  difficulties  become  a  national  problem.  Too, 
in  a  world  of  declining  foreign  markets,  the  decline  of  a  region  further  aggra- 
vates the  market  problems  of  a  national  economy.  Assistance  in  the  region's 
readjustment  is  essential  to  stabilize  the  elements — commercial,  financial,  man- 
ufactural- — of  the  national  economy  which  the  region  was  originally  instrumental 
in  building  up." 

It  is  apparent  from  the  above  that  the  economy  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  was 
unable  to  support  a  rapid  increase  in  population.  There  is  ample  evidence  in 
census  statistics,  however,  that  the  Tennessee  Valley  has  been  an  area  of  high 
fertility  rates.  The  average  family  of  the  region  in  1930  had  4.6  persons,  as 
compared  with  a  national  average  of  4.1  persons;  there  were  531  children  under 
5  years  of  age  per  1,000  women  of  childbearing  age  (15-44)  in  the  region, 
against  only  391  in  the  Nation. 

It  is  inevitable,  therefore,  that  the  seven  Tennessee  Valley  States  during  past 
decades  have  been  the  source  of  a  large  migratoi-y  stream  of  population.  In 
1930  the  area  was  the  birthplace  of  4,190,000  persons  who  lived  elsewhere  in  the 
United  States.    As  a  partial  offset,  the  area  was,  in  the  same  year,  the  residence 


QOQQ  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

of  950  000  persons  Avho  bad  been  born  elsewhere.  The  net  loss  through  migra- 
tion therefore  was  3,240,000  persons.  In  other  words,  for  every  person  entering- 
the  area  to  establish  residence,  between  4  and  5  persons  had  moved  away. 

This  migration  slionld  not  be  identified  entirely  with  the  migration  of  de.stitute 
worliers  with  which  the  committee  is  now  primarily  concerned.  The  removal 
was  largely  of  employed  and  productive  workers,  who  were  able  to  see  better 
economic  opportxmities  in  the  North  and  East  than  they  were  able  to  see  at 
home  For  the  most  part  they  constituted  a  valuable  addition  to  the  regions 
which  were  their  destination,  and  their  departure  was  a  corresponding  loss  to 
the  Tennessee  Valley  region  of  their  origin.  Their  leaving  the  region  in  such 
large  numbers,  however,  suggests  that  an  unfavorable  balance  had  existed  be- 
tween population  and  the  economy  of  the  region.  Unless  this  condition  is  cor- 
rected, the  type  of  migrant  which  the  committee  is  investigating  will  become 
much  more  significant  in  the  valley  region  than  at  present. 

The  principal  population  drain  from  the  valley  region  has  been  to  the  in- 
dustrial centers  of  the  Midwest.  During  the  economic  depression  of  the  early 
1930's  this  outward  movement  was  temporarily  reversed — less  because  of 
increased  economic  opportunities  within  the  region  than  because  of  decreased 
industrial  employment  elsewhere.  A  survey  of  2,800  families  in  the  Norris- 
Reservoir  area  of  Tennessee  in  1934  showed  that  8  percent  had  one  or  more 
members  who  had  returned  home  after  formerly  being  employed  elsewhere. 
The  number  who  had  left  and  remained  away  was,  of  course,  much  larger  but 
could  not  be  determined  from  the  survey.  The  majority  of  the  returned  workers 
had  been  employed  in  Knoxville  and  Michigan. 

The  above-mentioned  survey  is  illustrative  of  the  movement  of  rural  people- 
in  the  valley  region  to  industrial  centers.  Another  survey  suggests  a  further 
migration  of  urban  industrial  workers  from  the  region.  In  1937  the  seven 
valley  States  experienced  net  losses  of  1  percent  of  workers  covered  by  the 
old-age-insurance  provisions  of  the  Social  Security  Act.  In  Mississippi  the 
net  loss  was  3  percent.  It  should  be  borne  in  mind  that  these  migrants  left 
nonfarm  jobs  in  the  region  for  nonfarm  jobs  elsew'here.  They  are  exclusive 
of  agricultural  workers  or  destitute  itinerants. 

The  removal  of  workers  from  the  region  has  served  to  increase  the  burden 
on  the  productive  workers  who  remained.  In  the  Tennessee  Valley  in  1930 
there  were  122  dependents  (under  20  and  65  or  over)  for  every  100  producers; 
in  the  United  States  there  were  only  90  dependents  for  every  100  producers. 

The  combination  of  high  fertility  rates  and  migration  of  productive  workers 
has  placed  an  extraordinary  burden  upon  the  producers  who  remain.  The 
relatively  high  proportion  of  children  under  5  years  of  age  in  the  valley  States 
has  already  been  cited.  Recent  figures  are  available  for  the  Southeast  as  a 
whole  which  illustrate  the  pronounced  regional  differences  in  burden  of  care 
of  older  people  over  the  age  of  64.  While  57  percent  of  all  available  workers 
of  ages  15-64  in  the  United  States  are  covered  by  the  old-age-insurance  provi- 
sions of  the  Social  Security  Act,  only  40  percent  are  so  covered  in  the  Southeast. 
Of  all  employed  workers  in  the  United  States,  72  percent  are  covered,  com- 
pared with  49  percent  in  the  Southeast.  A  greater  load  for  care  of  the  very 
young  and  the  aged  to  be  borne  by  people  of  the  region  is  clearly  indicated. 

POTENTIALITIES    AND    UNBALANCED    DEVEI.OPMENT    OF    THE    TENNESSEE    VALLEY    WHS. 
AND  ITS  KESOUECES 

The  inability  of  the  valley  area  adequately  to  support  its  growing  population 
has  not  been  due  to  a  paucity  of  resources  but  to  a  failure  to  develop  its 
resources  in  the  interests  of  a  balanced  economy.  Responsibility  for  this 
failure  should  not  be  laid  to  the  population  of  the  area ;  the  causes  have  deep 
historical  roots  in  which  national  and  international  factors  played  an  im- 
portant part.  The  region,  like  the  South  as  a  whole,  was  settled  in  the  early 
history  of  the  Nation  precisely  because  it  had  many  potentialities  inherent  in 
its  natural  environment.  Its  variety  of  climate,  topographic  and  soil  conditions, 
and  its  abundant  vegetation  create  great  opportunity  for  the  productive  use  of 
its  land  resources. 

The  region  is  one  of  moderate  temperature,  as  suggested  by  an  annual  mean 
temperature  of  59°  F.  Rainfall  is  abundant,  with  an  average  of  about  52 
Inches   per   year.     In    this   resiwct   the  valley   is   representative   of   the   South 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3801 

generally,  which  contains  approximately  50  percent  of  the  Nation's  area  having 
more  than  a  40-inch  rainfall.  The  average  frost-free  growing  season  of  more 
than  206  clays  per  year  is  considerably  longer  than  the  national  average.  Wind 
velocity  is  moderate.  Such  incidence  of  natural  forces  is  important  because 
it  creates  the  opportunity  not  only  for  good  yields  per  acre  but  for  the  growth 
of  many  crops  not  adapted  to  less  fa^-orable  conditions. 

In  their  natural  state  soils  in  the  valley  were  generally  fertile.  They  were 
deep,  with  friable  topsoils,  heavy  clay  subsoils,  and  the  ability  to  retain  mois- 
ture. Although  these  soils,  like  most  of  the  soils  of  the  humid  regions,  are 
deficient  in  phosphorus,  calcium,  and  nitrogen,  they  are  at  least  moderately 
well  supplied  with  most  of  the  remaining  major  elements  necessary  for  plant 
growth.  The  700  significant  soil  types  and  phases  found  within  the  valley  and 
the  pattern  of  their  distribution  provide  opportunity  for  diversity  of  produc- 
tion, and  thus  establish  the  base  for  economic  stability. 

The  valley's  great  abundance  of  natural  forest  vegetation  was  a  heritage 
of  great  value,  and  it  played  an  important  part  in  the  development  of  the 
region.  Forest  cover  has  served  to  retard  soil  erosion  and  water  run-off,  has 
been  a  source  of  lumber  and  many  other  valuable  wood  products,  and  has  pro- 
vided fuel  and  construction  material  for  the  farm,  food  and  shelter  for  wild- 
life, and  numerous  chemical  and  cellulose  byproducts.  Further,  rehabilitation 
of  forest  resources  and  industries  provides  the  means  of  increasing  local  in- 
come, thereby  creating  a  more  decentralized  and  better-balanced  economy. 

In  addition  to  favorable  climate,  potentially  fertile  soil  and  abundant  natural 
vegetation,  the  valley  region  has  available  substantial  deposits  of  phosphate 
and  calcium.  These  mineral  elements  provide  a  prerequisite  for  the  effective 
development  and  oiieration  of  home  farms  on  a  permanent  basis. 

But  while  the  Tennessee  Valley  region  is  highly  endowed  with  natural  ad- 
vantages, it  has  become  characterized  by  unbalanced  development. 

Of  the  26,000,000  acres  of  forest  which  once  covered  the  valley,  only  about 
one-half  of  this  acreage  I'emains  in  timber,  and  that  in  a  depleted  condition. 
This  diminished  forest  resource  is  due  not  only  to  a  reduction  of  forest  area,  but 
also  to  a  serious  loss  of  productivity  through  exhaustive  cutting  and  repeated 
burning.  About  half  of  the  forest  area  of  the  valley  lies  in  Tennessee.  In  tliis 
State  the  peak  of  lumber  production  occurred  as  recently  as  1909,  when  Ten- 
nessee led  all  other  States  by  cutting  more  than  a  billion  board  feet  of  hard- 
wood lumber,  although  the  total  area  in  forest  was  no  greater  than  it  is  today. 
Two-thirds  of  the  present  forest  area  in  the  valley  is  in  trees  smaller  than  saw- 
timber  size,  and  much  of  the  young  growth  is  defective.  The  remaining  saw- 
timber  is  being  cut  at  a  rate  30  percent  greater  than  the  annual  growth  incre- 
ment.' This  fact  is  significant  in  that  it  suggests  a  drastic  readjustment  in 
wood-using  industries  and  resulting  social  maladjustments,  unless  adequate 
changes  are  made. 

An  average  of  10,000  fires  burn  annually  an  area  of  some  700,000  acres  of 
the  valley's  forest.^  This  represents  about  5  percent  of  the  total  forest  cover 
and  is  equivalent  to  total  burning  every  20  years.  Exclusive  of  the  southern 
States,  approximately  90  percent  of  the  Nation's  forests  receive  fire  protection, 
as  compared  with  49  percent  of  the  forest  land  in  the  valley  States.^  Less 
than  20  percent  of  the  valley's  forests  now  receive  adequate  protection  from 
fire. 

Row-crop  farming  and  the  failure  or  inability  to  employ  proper  soil-conserva- 
tion and  land-use  methods  have  in  large  part  been  the  cause  of  land  depletion. 
For  years  farmers  in  the  South  have  i>lauted  their  lands  in  cultivated  cash 
crops.  It  was  in  large  part  the  cotton  of  the  South  which  gave  America  her 
international  balance  of  trade  with  which  to  build  the  sinews  of  an  industrial 
system.  But  the  soil  was  soon  to  pay  dearly  for  this  contribution.  Surveys 
conducted  by  the  Authority  indicate  that  the  rate  of  soil  and  water  loss  in 
the  valley  is  rapid  under  the  present  conditions  of  land  use  and  depleted 
vegetal  cover.'  Nearly  7,000,000  acres  of  the  12,000,000  acres  of  cleared  land 
in  the  valley  require  special  treatment.    According  to  the  best  available  data,. 


1  Forestry  Facts  About  the  Tennessee  Valley,  p.  33. 
=  Forestry  Facts  About  the  Tennessee  Valley,  p.  14. 

2  Forest  Fire  Statistics  for  the  United  States,  1938,  prepared  by  the  TJ.  S.  Forest  Service^ 
*  Forestry  Facts  About  the  Tennessee  Valley,  November  1938. 


3802 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


at  least  1,000,000  acres  are  so  seriously  eroded  as  to  have  become  idle  and 
nonproductive;  another  1,500,000  are  seriously  depleted  by  gullying  and 
sheet  erosion;  the  remaining  4,500,000  acres  are  less  seriously  eroded  but 
require  different  use  and  management.  The  fact  that  about  one-half  of  the 
water  which  falls  on  the  valley's  watershed  flows  out  of  the  river's  mouth 
suggests  not  only  the  hazard  of  floods  but  also  the  inefficient  use  of  water 
which  might  otherwise  be  utilized  productively  in  the  growth  of  plants  and 
animals. 

Continued  planting  of  cotton  and  corn  in  an  area  of  high  rainfall  and  mild 
winters  not  only  exposed  the  land  to  soil  losses  through  erosion,  but  also  to 
the  loss  of  essential  plant  nutrients  in  the  soil.  In  an  effort  to  compensate 
for  this  drain  on  soil  fertility,  it  became  the  custom  for  farmers  to  apply 
large  quantities  of  commercial  fertilizers.  These  fertilizers,  usually  ordinary 
superphosphates  and  mixed  fertilizers,  are,  because  of  their  low  concentration, 
so  costly  that  farmers  under  existing  income  conditions  are  unable  to  purchase 
adequate  quantities  to  maintain  properly  the  fertility  of  their  soil. 

In  1939  the  average  mixed  fertilizer  in  the  United  States  contained  about 
3.76  percent  nitrogen,  9.08  percent  P2O5,  and  5.78  percent  K2O,  a  total  of  18.62 
percent  of  plant  nutrients.^  The  average  superphosphate  used  in  the  same 
year  contained  about  19  percent  P20'5.  Fertilizers  of  such  low  analysis  are 
excessively  expensive.  Distribution  costs,  which  include  costs  for  sales  and 
office  overhead,  handling  charges,  bagging,  manufacturer's  profit,  freight,  taxes, 
and  dealer's  profit,  comprise  more  than  50  percent  of  the  cost  of  plant  nutrients 
to  the  land.  The  following  table  shows  the  ineconomy  of  19-percent  super- 
phosphate as  compared  with   concentrated  phosphatic  fertilizers : 


19  percent, 
5H  tons 

48  percent, 
2.08  tons 

60  percent, 
1%  tons 

Cost 

$44.00 
10.50 

5.25 
10.50 

4.22 
15.  75 

1.32 

7.96 

$57.  50 
4.16 
2.08 
4.16 
4.07 
6.24 
.52 
6.85 

$57  50 

3.32 

Handling  ($1  per  ton) 

1  66 

3.32 

Manufacturer's  profit  (6  percent  above  items) 

3.95 

Freight  (."iS  per  ton) 

5  00 

Dealer's  profit  (8  percent  delivery  price) 

6.54 

99.50 

85.58 

81.70 

Thus,  while  one  ton  of  P2O5  obtained  from  a  fertilizer  of  19-percent  concen- 
tration is  estimated  to  cost  $99.50  at  the  point  of  delivery,  from  48-percent 
material  it  would  cost  $85.58,  and  from  60-percent  material  it  would  cost 
only  $81.70.  On  the  basis  of  these  price  differences,  a  farmer  with  $100  to 
invest  in  phosphate  would  get  2,000  pounds  of  P2O5  in  19-percent  superphos- 
phate;  2,355  pounds  of  P2O5  (or  18  percent  more)  in  the  48-percent  grade;  and 
2,447  pounds  of  P2O5  (or  22  i>ercent  more)  in  the  60-percent  type.  The  sav- 
ings to  the  farmer  which  are  inherent  in  the  use  of  highly  concentrated  fer- 
tilizers are  especially  important  when  incomes  are  low  and  needs  for  fertilizer 
are  great.  In  recent  years  farmers  have  been  unable  to  pay  the  penalty  of 
using  low-grade  materials  in  the  quantities  required. 

The  fanners  of  the  South  have  had  to  be  content  not  only  with  high  prices 
for  one  of  their  principal  needs,  fertilizer,  but  also  with  a  general  condition 
of  relatively  high  prices  for  manufactured  products  and  at  the  same  time 
an  unstable  market  for  the  sale  of  farm  products.  Such  factors  as  freight- 
rate  differentials  and  undeveloped  water  transportation  have  served  to  relegate 
the  South  to  the  position  of  a  raw  materials-producing  area  and  an  importer 
of  higher-valued  processed  goods.  The  effect  upon  the  soil  of  low  receipts 
and  high  costs  has  been  to  stimulate  the  farmer  to  plant  more  cash  crops— 
on  his  less  productive  land— in  an  effort  to  satisfy  the  minimum  requirements 
of  his  family. 


-,,.0^  ^"u.^^^J  of  Plant  Food  Consumption  in  the  United  States  in  the  Year  Ended  June  30, 
1939.  published  by  the  National  Fertilizer  Association,  d.  15. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3803 

Population  pressure  is  extremely  high  in  the  valley  when  measured  on 
the  basis  of  either  per  capita  farm  area  or  per  capita  rui'al  area.  In  the 
Nation  as  a  whole,  there  are  40  acres  of  land  per  capita  if  farm  population 
of  the  great  western-range  pasture  is  included,  or  28  acres  per  capita  if  it  is 
excluded ;  the  valley  has  but  10.8  acres  per  capita  of  farm  population.®  In  the 
national  economy,  there  are  22.4  acres  of  land  per  capita  of  rural  population 
if  the  western-range  pasture  is  Included,  or  16.3  acres  if  it  is  not ;  the  valley 
has  only  7.5  acres  per  capita  of  rural  population.' 

In  1930  the  valley  region  had  a  substantially  larger  proportion  of  persons 
under  20  years  of  age  (47.4  percent)  tlian  the  United  States  (38.8  percent). 
In  the  Cumberland  plateau  counties  of  the  region,  more  than  one-half  of  the 
population  (51.4  percent)  was  under  20  years  of  age.  For  every  100  persons 
of  productive  age  (20-()4  years)  there  are  122  dependents  (persons  below 
20  years  and  65  years  or  above)  in  the  valley  counties,  as  compared  with  90 
for  the  United  States.  The  average  number  of  persons  per  family  was  4.1  in 
the  United  States  and  4.6  in  the  valley — an  equivalent  of  one-half  person  more 
per  family  in  the  valley  region.® 

In  1930  the  percentage  of  total  population  designated  as  rural  population 
was  76.8  in  the  valley  as  against  43.8  in  the  Nation  as  a  whole."  Population 
in  the  valley  is  increasing  at  a  rapid  rate.  In  1930  there  were  531  children 
under  5  years  of  age  for  every  LOOK)  women  of  childbearing  age  in  the  valley, 
as  compared  with  391  for  the  United  States  and  with  the  368  estimated  as 
necessary  to  maintain  a  stationary  population ;  and  in  one  portion  of  the 
valley,  the  Cumberland  plateau  section,  the  number  was  655  per  1,000,  almost 
double  the  national  average.^" 

All  of  the  factors  cited  above  have  had  a  cumulative  cause  and  effect  rela- 
tionship to  regional  living  standards.  That  living  conditions  in  the  valley 
region  as  a  whole  are  poor,  compared  to  those  of  the  Nation,  is  evidenced  by 
the  situation  which  exists  with  respect  to  housing  facilities,  health  conditions, 
educational  standards,  and  income.    These  are  examined  briefly  below. 

Poor  housing  conditions  are  found  In  the  Tennessee  Valley,  even  in  what  are 
customarily  considered  the  more  active  and  progressive  centers.  In  Knoxville, 
according  to  a  real  property  inventory  in  1939,  a  total  of  2,428  or  9  percent  of 
all  dwellings  were  classed  as  "unfit  for  use,"  yet  88  percent  of  this  class  of 
unit  was  occupied.  In  the  Tri-Cities  of  northern  Alabama  (the  cities  of  Shef- 
field, Florence,  and  Tuscumbia),  according  to  a  recent  detailed  field  survey  by 
the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority,  nearly  28  percent  of  all  family  dwelling  units 
occupied  by  Negroes  were  classed  as  "poor."  The  average  for  all  occupied 
dwellings  was  more  than  10  i)ercent. 

The  rural  housing  situation  in  the  valley  area  is  illustrated  by  Tennessee 
Valley  Authority  surveys  of  I'eservoir  families.  In  the  reservoir  areas,  which 
are  reasonably  representative  of  rural  conditions  in  the  valley  as  a  whole, 
box  houses  of  two  and  three  and  four  rooms  were  the  rule,  without  running 
water  or  sanitation  facilities.  A  broader  survey,  conducted  by  the  United  States 
Department  of  Agriculture  in  1938,  rated  the  condition  of  farm  homes  in  Ala- 
bama at  29,  in  Mi^^sissippi  at  22,  and  Georgia  at  81,  as  compared  with  a  na- 
tional average  rating  of  farm  homes  at  44.  Alabama  and  Mississippi  farm 
homes  averaged  4.1  rooms,  and  Georgia  farm  homes  averaged  4.4  rooms ;  the 
national  average  was  5.4  rooms.  This  differential  is  particularly  significant 
in  view  of  the  larger  families  in  the  South. 

A  further  index  of  conditions  is  the  fact  that  the  average  value  of  all 
dwellings  in  the  United  States  is  approximately  $3,788,  whereas  the  value  of 
dwelling.s  in  the  valley  region  is  only  $1,161."  The  value  of  farm  dwellings 
per  farm  throughout  the  Nation  is  about  $1,126,  as  compared  with  $563  for 
the  valley.'^  In  the  country  at  large,  15.8  percent  of  farms  are  equipped  with 
piped  water  as  against  3.7  percent  for  the  valley  counties." 


*  United  States  census,  1930. 

7  Ibid. 

»  Alexander  and  Cedra,  The  Population  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  (1937). 

0  Ibid. 

w  Ibid. 

"  1930  Population  Census. 

^  1930  Census  of  Agriculture. 

w  Ibid. 


2gQ^     •  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Standards  of  health  in  the  valley  region  are  low  when  measured  on  the 
basis  of  certain  important  indices.  The  valley's  mortality  rates  per  100,000 
population  are  7.6  from  typhoid  (and  paratyphoid)  fever  and  79.4  from  tuber- 
culo.sis.  as  compared  with  national  averages  of  3.9  and  63.2,  respectively.' 
For  each  100,000  population  the  valley  has  approximately  86  physicians  and 
25  dentists,  as  compared  with  131  physicians  and  54  dentists  for  the  United 
States  as  a  whole.''  At  the  same  time  the  number  of  general  hospital  beds 
per  100,000  population  is  120  for  the  valley  as  against  310  for  the  Nation  as 
a  whole.'* 

Conditions  of  nutrition  in  the  Tennessee  Valley  region  are  suggested  by  the 
average  per  capita  consumption  of  essential  food  and  feed  products  which  are 
consumed  either  directly  by  its  human  population  or  indirectly  through  farm 
livestock.  On  the  basis  of  the  national  average  per  capita  consumption  of 
these  products,"  valley  consumption  during  1934  was  deficient  to  the  extent 
of  27  percent  in  white  potatoes,  30  percent  in  hay,  45  percent  in  livestock,  77 
percent  in  wheat,  and  92  percent  in  oats,  barley,  and  rye.  Although  conclu- 
sive scientific  studies  have  not  been  made  to  date,  experts  ttgree  that  the  diet 
of  the  valley  is  deficient  not  only  in  these  essentials  but  in  the  consumption  of 
fresh  fruits  and  vegetables  as  well.  The  valley  consumes  25  percent  more  corn 
and  244  percent  more  sweetpotatoes  per  capita  of  population  than  the  Nation. 
This  element  of  monotony  is  perhaps  explained  as  evidence  of  an  intense 
pres.sure  to  produce  crops  having  the  highest  caloric  content  per  acre. 

Educational  services  in  the  valley  are  deficient  when  appraised  in  terms  of  the 
■criteria  of  per  capita  expenditures  for  child  education,  libraries,  and  research  and 
extension  in  the  land-grant  colleges.  In  1933-34  average  expenditures  per  child 
between  the  ages  of  7  and  17  were  $68.02  in  the  United  States  as  a  whole,  and  only 
$23.85  in  the  valley  counties.'^  School  expenditures  per  capita  of  total  population 
ranged  from  $6.53  to  $8.71  in  the  valley  States  compared  with  $15.33  for  the 
United  States.  School  current  expenditures  per  capita  of  pupils  enrolled  ranged 
from  $21.61  to  $35.38  in  the  valley  States,  as  compared  with  $67.88  for  the 
United  States.  On  the  other  hand,  schools  in  1930  took  40.5  cents  of  the  State  and 
local  tax  dollar  in  the  seven  valley  States,  while  taking  38.5  cents  of  the  State 
and  local  tax  dollar  in  the  United  States. 

In  1934  the  United  States  as  a  whole  expended  an  average  of  .31  cents  per  capita 
for  library  service,  as  compared  with  an  expenditure  of  17  cents,  or  about  55  per- 
cent of  this  amount,  by  the  valley  States.'"  Expenditures  per  capita  of  farm 
population  by  land-grant  colleges  in  the  valley  States  are  low  when  compared 
with  the  expenditures  of  similar  Institutions  throughout  the  Nation.""  In  1938. 
while  .$3.11  and  $4.96  were  average  expenditures  per  farm  for  research  and  exten- 
sion, respectively,  only  $1.28  and  $3.60  were  expended  for  these  purposes  in  the 
seven  valley  States.  Thus,  while  the  Nation  as  a  whole  invested  an  average  of 
$8.08  in  research  and  demonstration,  the  valley  States  invested  only  $4.88.  Defi- 
cient expenditure  for  reseai'ch  and  extension  within  the  valley  is  significant  be- 
cause it  tends  to  limit  both  tlie  quality  and  quantity  of  scientific  information 
available  to  farmers  as  a  basis  for  improved  land  and  forest  management 
techniques. 

These  conditions  are  critical.  They  are  of  a  character  and  degree  suggesting 
the  lack  of  economic  opportunity  through  which  their  correction  might  be 
achieved.  This  is  reflected  clearly  in  existing  standards  of  real  and  money 
income. 

The  per  capita  income  in  the  valley  region  in  1938  was  $237.  or  46  percent  of  the 
Tiational  average  of  $515."  In  1935  the  valley  States,  although  containing  approx- 
imately 30  percent  of  the  farm  population  of  the  United  States,  received  less  than 
14  percent  of  the  total  cash  farm  income.^^    In  1929  the  gross  value  of  farm 


iMMtal  Statistics  Report  of  State  Health  Departments  (average  figures  for  1931-.35). 
15  Directory  of  American  Medical  Association  (1934  figures),  and  Polli's  Dental  Register 
(1928  figures). 

"  Directory  of  American  Medical  Association. 

"  United   States  Census  data.     Computation  reflects  production  less  exports  divided  by 
jpopulation. 

"  Studies  made  by  Department  of  Regional  Studies. 

i»  Geograpliy  of  Reading,  p.  72. 

20  TTnited  States  Census. 

=1  Computed  from  figures  in  Sales  Management.  April  19.S9. 

22  United  States  Census  and  U.  S.  Department  of  Agriculture  statistics. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3805 

products  per  capita  of  farm  population  in  the  region  wa.s  $164  in  contrast  to  $362 
for  the  United  States,  or  only  48  percent  of  the  national  average. 

These  tigures  relating  to  fai-ni  income  are  paralleled  by  those  relating  to  income 
from  manufacturing.  In  1937  the  valley  counties  contained  some  1.6  percent  of 
the  Nation's  wage  earners,  but  received  only  1.1  percent  of  wages  paid — i.  e.,  68 
percent  as  much  per  wage  earner  as  the  national  average.-^  Even  in  those  aspects 
of  manufacturing  and  processing  most  closely  related  to  agriculture,  the  region 
appears  to  be  at  a  strong  disadvantage.  While  specific  data  for  the  watershed 
are  imavailable,  it  appears  that  the  valley  States  during  1929,  having  20  percent 
of  the  Nation's  total  population  and  11  percent  of  its  purchasing  power,  packed 
only  2  percent  of  its  meat  and  processed  only  8  percent  of  its  other  food 
products.-^ 

Economic  opportunities  have  been  frozen.  The  people  of  the  valley  have  not 
had  the  income  whereby  tliey  might  maintain  or  improve  their  standard  of  living 
and  security.  Accordingly,  many  of  them,  and  esijecially  the  productive  workers, 
have  migrated  to  the  industrial  c-enters  of  the  North.  The  problem  of  migration 
from  the  valley  area  thus  arises  in  large  part  from  the  historical  lack  of  develoj)- 
ment  of  the  region's  resources  in  the  interests  of  a  balanced  economy  and  of  lack 
of  provision  for  adequate  and  expanding  economic  opportunities  for  its  citizens. 

II.  The  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  Program  as  a  Mechanism  fob  the 
Widening  of  Economic  Opportunity 

The  conservation  and  development  programs  in  the  Tennessee  Valley  have  a 
dual  relationship  to  population  and  economic  opportunity.  Incident  to  any  pro- 
gram of  conservation  there  are  population  shifts  as  lands  are  taken  out  of  their 
traditional  use,  the  income-producing  capacity  of  these  lands  being  temporarily 
reduced  or  emerging  through  new  channels.  In  the  Tennessee  Valley  the  conser- 
vation program  has  displaced  or  will  displace  more  persons  from  reservoir,  forest, 
and  agricultural  lands  than  the  conservation  program,  taken  alone,  will  employ. 

In  the  Tennessee  Valley,  however,  there  is  development  as  well  as  conservation. 
Conservation  itself  is  long-range  development.  There  is  a  more  immediate  devel- 
opment of  new  resources,  new  utilization  of  old  resources,  new  industres,  and  new 
occupations.  These  also  are  causing  population  shifts  within  the  region.  More- 
over, they  act  as  a  brake  on  such  migrations  from  the  region  as  have  been  caused 
in  the  past  by  the  enforced  severance  of  families  from  worn-out  lands  with  no 
alternate  sources  of  livelihood  locally  available. 

The  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  program  is  regional  in  scope,  predicated  on  the 
conviction  that  the  valley  possesses  wealth  in  resources  adequate  to  relieve  i>opu- 
lation  pressure  which  unwise  use  of  these  resources  has  created  in  certain  sections 
of  the  area.  The  Authority  believes  that  standards  of  living  can  be  improved 
through  conservation  of  some  resources  and  development  of  others.  When  this  is 
done,  removals  from  the  region  will  no  longer  be  an  evidence  of  the  destitute 
circumstances  of  its  inhabitants.     The  region  will  be  able  to  support  its  people. 

However,  the  Authority's  program,  and  that  of  the  many  cooperating  agencies, 
is  not  designed  to  freeze  people  to  their  present  environment.  Migration  to  new 
economic  frontiers  is  an  essential  part  of  democracy.  A  change  in  scene  may 
oi)en  up  new  and  better  employment  opportunities  for  the  worker.  It  may  permit 
a  better  land  use  by  relieving  population  pressure  in  the  area  of  his  origin.  It 
may  permit  a  great  development  of  economic  potentialities  in  the  area  of  his 
destination.  As  the  regional  program  of  the  Authority  progresses  it  Is  to  be 
hoped  that  internal  population  shifts  of  this  type  will  voluntarily  occur.  It  is  to 
be  hoped  that  there  will  continue  also  a  free  flow  of  workers  into,  and  out  of,  the 
region. 

The  desired  set  of  conditions  is  that  which  will  freely  permit  and  encourage 
migrations  that  are  to  the  economic  benefit  alike  of  migrants  and  the  regions  of 
their  origin  and  destination,  and  which  will,  on  the  other  hand,  make  unnecessary 
migrations  from  a  region  offering  inadequate  economic  opportunities  to  other 
regions  where  such  opportunities  are  also  inadequate.  The  obvious  first  step  in 
bringing  about  such  a  set  of  conditions  is  the  fullest  possible  development  of 


23  Biennial  Census  of  Manufacturers,  1937  ;  and  computations  from  census  data  made  by 
thp  commerce  department  in  Tennessee  Valley  Authority. 

"*  Computed  from  data  contained  in  Census  of  Manufacturing  and  Census  of  Agriculture- 


3806 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


resources  in  regions  of  migrant  origin  in  tlie  interest  of  providing  fuller  and  wider 
opportunities,  and  a  rising  standard  of  living,  for  their  people.  This,  within  the 
geographical  area  of  its  activities,  and  likewise  within  the  framework  of  demo- 
cratic principles  and  processes,  is  the  primary  objective  of  the  Tennessee  Valley 
Authority. 

The  major  elements  in  the  Authority's  program  may  be  summarized  in  terms  of : 

1.  Activities  directed  to  rebuilding  the  soil  and  stimulating  agriculture. 

2.  Activities  directed  to  encouragement  of  forestry  development. 

3.  Activities  designed  to  aid  enterprise  by  providing  new  industrial  processes 
and  facts  concerning  resources  of  the  region  and  their  possible  uses. 

4.  Activities  in  establishing  mass-consumption  pricing  policies  in  the  sale  of 
electricity. 

5.  Activities  relating  to  water  control  in  the  interests  of  flood  control,  naviga- 
tion, and  recreation. 

In  addition,  apart  from  these  activities  directed  to  the  economy  of  the  region 
and  its  people  as  a  whole,  the  Authority's  program  has  affected  directly  certain  par- 
ticular groups,  as,  for  example,  persons  owning  land  acquired  by  Tennessee  Valley 
Authority  for  its  improvements,  and  persons  whom  Tennessee  Valley  Authority- 
employs. 

1.  Activities  Directed  to  Rebuilding  the  Soil  and  Stimulating  Agriculture 

The  principal  problems  facing  southern  agriculture — dependence  on  cash  crops,, 
use  of  low-grade  fertilizers,  erosion,  and  the  gradual  impoverishment  of  both 
the  soil  and  those  who  farm  it — have  already  been  described.  The  Tennessee 
Valley  Authority  is,  of  course,  only  one  of  a  number  of  agencies  engaged  in 
seeking  a  solution  to  these  problems.  The  Authority,  however,  has  had  a  unique 
contribution  to  make  in  this  field,  because  to  it  has  been  entrusted  custody  of  the 
national  laboratories  at  Muscle  Shoals,  which  were  constructed  during  the  first 
World  War  for  the  manufacture  of  nitrates  for  explosives.  These  plants  have 
been  adopted  by  the  Authority  for  use  as  a  national  laboratory  in  developing  new 
and  improved  forms  of  fertilizers. 

NEW  PLANT-FOOD  MATEKIAXS 

Several  considerations  suggested  use  of  the  facilities  of  Nitrate  Plant  No.  2 
for  the  production  of  concentrated  phosphatic  fertilizers  by  the  electric-furnace 
method.  The  production  of  concentrated  phosphates  offered  the  best  chance  of 
arriving  at  "new  types"  of  fertilizers,  of  improving  and  cheapening  fertilizers, 
of  establishing  new  fertilizer  practices,  and  of  preventing  losses  of  soil  and  water, 
in  accordance  with  the  specific  provisions  of  section  5  of  the  Tennessee  Valley 
Authority  Act.  Natural  rock  phosphate  was  available  in  Tennessee,  and  the 
electric-furnace  method  offered  the  possibility  of  utilizing  ores  of  lower  grade 
than  had  been  used  previously.  The  equipment  and  facilities  available  at 
Nitrate  Plant  No.  2  could  be  utilized  to  a  considerable  extent.  Furthermore,  the 
production  of  elemental  phosphorus  at  Nitrate  Plant  No.  2  would  add  another 
national-defen.se  value  to  the  plant. 

The  first  technical  development  undertaken  centered  around  the  production 
of  phosphoric  acid  by  the  electric-furnace  method  and  the  use  of  this  acid  in  the 
production  of  concentrated  superphosphate.  This  material  is  sometimes  called 
"triple  superphosphate"  because  it  contains  approximately  45  percent  P2O5  (phos- 
phoric acid),  nearly  three  times  the  amount  present  in  ordinary  commercial  super- 
phosphate. The  second  important  product  developed  was  calcium  metaphosphate, 
containing  more  than  60  percent  P2O5.  A  third  important  development  now  in 
progress  is  that  of  fused-rock  phosphate.  Bach  of  these  developments,  while  not 
discussed  at  length  in  this  statement,  represents  a  definite  step  toward  accom- 
plishment of  the  objectives  set  forth  in  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  Act. 
Detailed  processes  and  costs  are  described  in  various  technical  journals. 

TEST  DEMONSTRATION  OF  NEW  FERTILIZERS 

It  is  not  sufiicient  merely  to  develop  processes  and  produce  new  fertilizer  ma- 
terials. New  products  must  be  tested  and  the  results  of  such  tests  demonstrated 
through  a  sequence  of  stages  sufficient  to  give  reasonable  assurance  of  their  value, 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3307 

effect,  and  best  methods  of  use  in  a  system  of  farm  management  which  wiU 
provide  greater  real  and  money  income  to  tlie  farm  family. 

The  difficulties  inherent  in  this  program  are  well  recognized  both  by  technical 
experts  and  by  practical  farmer.s.  Particular  fertilizer  materials  are  effective 
biochemically  or  are  practical  economically  only  on  certain  types  of  soils  and 
when  used  in  certain  farm-management  systems.  There  are  approximately  700 
■different  soil  types  and  phases  and  some  15  significantly  different  types  of  farm- 
ing in  the  Tennessee  Valley  region.  Needless  to  say,  the  possible  combinations 
of  these  variables  are  numerous. 

Preliminary  scientific  investigations  with  various  new  fertilizer  products  are 
conducted  on  a  small  scale  under  relatively  controlled  and  artificial  conditions  in 
order  to  guide  the  further  testing  of  such  products  under  large  scale,  practical 
conditions.  These  tests  are  conducted  in  cooperation  with  the  several  agricultural 
experiment  stations.  They  are  conducted  through  a  sequence  of  stages  consisting 
of:  (1)  tests  involving  no  life,  of  chemical  and  physical  properties,  (2)  tests 
involving  plant  life,  including  the  fungus,  Neubauer,  greenhouse  pot,  and  experi- 
mental plot  tests,  and  (3)  tests  involving  animal  hfe,  including  tests  with  labora- 
tory animals  and  large  animals  and  human  nutrition  tests.  While  the  Valley 
States  experiment  stations  have  been  most  active  in  these  investigations,  ma- 
terials are  being  supplied  to  any  experiment  station  which  desires  to  conduct  such 
studies.  Already  experiment  stations  in  46  States  and  in  Hawaii  and  Puerto  Rico 
have  conducted  more  than  25,000  scientific  tests  in  their  laboratories,  greenhouses, 
and  fields. 

But  preliminary  tests  under  the  controlled  conditions  of  the  laboratory  and  the 
experimental  pot  and  plot  are  inadequate  as  a  basis  of  conclusion  for  application 
to  the  practical  farm.  The  total  farm,  the  only  place  where  soils,  plants  land 
animals,  and  the  human  family,  are  integrated  into  a  complete  psychobiological 
unit,  is  the  smallest  unit  which  can  form  the  basis  of  sound  deduction  as  to 
results  from  the  use  of  new  forms  of  fertilizer.  This  conception  forms  a  working 
hypothesis  upon  which  the  Authority's  program  of  test-demonstration  is  built. 

Another  important  hypothesis  is  that,  while  the  entire  farm  is  the  smallest 
basis  for  deduction,  the  entire  community  is  the  .smallest  unit  of  interpretation. 
Use  of  the  entire  community  as  a  basis  of  interpretation  makes  possible  the 
measurement  of  the  effect  of  economic  factors. 

A  practical  test-demonstration  must  embrace  an  entire  farm  handled  as  a 
single  operating  unit  subject  to  the  impact  of  such  variables  as  climate,  manage- 
ment, and  economic  factors.  It  must  be  planned  so  as  to  relate  each  of  its  enter- 
prises (such  as  crop  production,  cattle  raising,  sheep  raising,  dairying,  poultry 
raising,  pork  production)  properly  one  to  the  other  and  to  the  whole  farm  in 
order  to  contribute  the  greatest  good  to  the  people  whose  livelihood  it  provides. 
In  a  democratic  society,  the  primary  purpose  of  such  demonstrations  can  most 
effectively  be  to  enable  farmers  to  obtain  information  by  their  own  efforts  con- 
cerning phosphatic  materials  applied  in  a  practical  system  of  farming,  and  to 
furnish  to  the  operators  of  other  farms  in  the  same  community  reliable  informa- 
tion and  visual  guides  to  action  which  might  be  helpful  to  them  in  planning 
readjustments  in  their  land-use  and  farming  systems. 

It  is  in  connection  with  the  program  of  farm-unit  demonstrations  that  there  is 
demonstrated  most  effectively  the  method  adopted  by  the  Authority  for  assisting 
established  governmental  agencies,  landowners,  farm  organizations,  and  farmers, 
to  perform  themselves  the  major  part  of  the  activities  essential  for  achieving  the 
objective  of  wise  use  of  land  and  its  allied  water  resources.  The  essential  steps 
in  the  method  are  as  follows  : 

(1)  State  committees  made  up  of  representatives  of  the  technical  departments 
in  the  State  land-grant  college  select  counties  in  which  test  demonstrations  can 
be  effectively  conducted.  The  number  and  distribution  of  the  counties  is  intended 
to  represent  the  principal  soil  types  in  the  State,  different  types  of  farming,  and 
different  sizes  of  farms. 

(2)  County  agents,  who  serve  as  liaison  officers  between  the  agricultural  experi- 
ment stations  and  agricultural  extension  services,  and  farmers,  call  meetings  of 
local  farm  people  for  the  purpose  of  explaining  the  opportunitv  for  participating 
in  the  program  of  test-demonstration  cooperatively  established  by  the  Authority 
and  the  land-grant  colleges.  Most  frequently,  local  farm  people  organize  into 
local  soil-conservation  or  land-use  associations. 


OOQO  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

(3)  Community  farm  groups  analyze  the  important  problems  affecting  their 
local  situation.  If  they  decide  to  participate  in  the  program  of  test-demonstration,, 
they  develop  a  program  of  land-use  adjustment  designed  to  improve  their  particular 
systems  of  soil  use,  fertilization,  and  cropping.  Through  the  agency  of  committees 
of  their  own  members,  the  local  groups  select  individual  farms  in  their  com- 
munities, typical  a«  to  practices,  which  might  serve  as  places  for  testint: 
adjustment  programs. 

(4)  Farmers  whose  farms  are  selected  for  use  as  test-demonstration  farms 
agree  in  written  memoranda  to  observe  certain  specified  conditions  in  the- 
conduct  of  the  tests.  In  return  for  specified  quantities  of  experimental  ferti- 
lizer supplied  at  cost  of  freight,  they  agree  to:  make  their  farms  available;, 
make  necessary  readjustments  decided  upon  in  agreement  with  neighbors  and 
the  extension '  service ;  provide  necessary  supplementary  materials,  such  as 
lime;  provide  labor  necessary  for  carrying  out  the  test;  open  their  farms  to 
visits  and  study  by  neighbors,  as  well  as  i-epresentatives  of  the  land-grant 
college  and  the  Authority ;  and  keep  records  of  operations,  including  standard 
books  of  account.  Test-demonstration  farmers  agree  with  their  community 
committees  and  State  college  to  carry  out  the  program  for  a  period  of  at 
least  5  years.  With  certain  exceptions  they  bear  any  increased  cost  due  tO' 
necessary  changes  in  farm  fencing  and  the  purchase  of  additional  equipment 
and  materials  needed.  They  assume  the  financial  risk  involved  in  shifts  in 
crops,  livestock,  and  fertilizer  practices.  Such  risks  they  assume  as  a  com- 
munity service. 

(5)  The  community  groups  hold  meetings  on  the  farms  from  time  to  time 
to  note  results  and  discuss  their  application.  In  some  counties  farmers  are 
forming  committees  to  inspect  unit-demonstration  farms  for  the  si>ecific  pur- 
pose of  passing  upon  the  requests  of  individual  farmers  for  extended  agreements- 
as  demonstrators. 

KKSUr.TS  OF  THE  PROGRAM 

Up  to  the  present  time  the  Authority  has  been  concerned  primarily  with, 
laying  a  basis  for  sound  interpretation.  Some  impression  of  the  effect  of  the 
test-demonstration  program  may  be  obtained  by  reviewing  the  records  of 
operations  over  a  period  of  5  years  of  100  test-demonstration  farms  in  the- 
Norris,  Tenn.,  area.  The  100  farms  studied  are  representative  of  the  common 
kinds  of  farms  with  respect  to  size,  soil  composition,  land  use  and  type  of 
farming  in  the  area.  An  average  of  seven  tons  of  Tennessee  Valley  Authority 
phosphate  per  farm  was  applied  to  the  farms. 

In  analyses  of  the  100  farms,  it  has  been  assumed  that  the  most  significant 
changes  which  take  place  on  unit  test-demonstration  farms  may  be  evaluated 
in  terms  of  what  might  be  designated  as  a  "ladder  of  progress,"  made  up  of 
the  four  steps  set  forth  below : 

IMPROVED  BIOLOGICAL  ADJUSTMENTS 

Stage  1.  More  vigorous  growth  of  legumes  and  grasses  treated  with  phos- 
phatic  fertilizers  and  such  plant-food  supplements  as  lime,  as  measured  by : 
(a)  increased  yield  of  hay  per  acre,  (&)  increased  total  production  of  hay, 
and  (r)  increased  ninnber  of  units  of  cattle,  sheep,  and  horses. 

Stage  2.  Increased  vigor  of  livestock  consuming  the  treated  legumes  and 
grasses,  as  measured  by:  (a)  increased  number  of  calves  born  in  proportion 
to  the  number  of  cows  kept,  (b)  increased  quantity  of  milk  produced  per  cow, 
and  (c)  increased  receipts  from  cattle,  sheep,  and  horses. 

Stage  3.  Increased  yields  and  quality  of  crops  following  the  treated  legumes- 
and  grasses  in  the  crop  rotaion,  as  measured  by:  (a)  increased  yield  of  corn 
per  acre,  and  (ft)  increased  yield  of  wheat  per  acre. 

IMPROVra)   FARM    MANAGEMENT 

Stage  4.  Changes  in  land  use,  especially  shifting  row  crops  to  pasture  and 
hay,  as  measured  by:  (a)  increased  total  acreage  of  hay,  pasture,  small  grains, 
winter  legumes,  and  legumes  and  grasses  turned  under  or  left  on  the  land, 
(6)  increased  acreage  of  red  clover  and  alfalfa,  and  (c)  increased  acreage  of 
barley  and  oats. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3809 

Stage  5.  Adjustments  in  kinds  and  numbers  of  livestock  and  livestock  pro- 
duction practices,  as  measured  by:  («)  substantial  increase  in  number  of  cows, 
cattle,  or  sheep  kept,  (b)  substantial  increase  in  number  of  cattle  sold  or 
changes  In  ages  at  which  sold,  (c)  substantial  decrease  in  number  of  hogs  kept, 
(d)  establishment  or  great  increase  in  size  of  a  dairy  enterprise,  (e)  shift  from 
natural  to  artificial  brooding  of  chicks,  and  (f)  decrease  in  the  number  of 
market  hogs  sold. 

IMPROVED   FAMILY    WELFARE 

Stage  6.  Increased  security  and  well-being  of  the  family  or  families  living 
on  the  farm,  as  measured  by:  (a)  increased  farm  income,  and  (&)  increased 
total  value  of  foods  grown  on  the  farm  and  consumed  by  the  farm  family. 

IMPROVED  COMMUNITY  WELFARE 

Stage  7.  Increased  security  and  well-being  of  the  people  of  the  neighborhood, 
community,  county,  area,  State,  region,  and  Nation,  as  measured  by  such  factors 
as:  (a)  increased  employment  on  the  farm,  and  (&)  Increased  industrial 
employment. 

Applying  the  "ladder  of  progress"  and  the  criteria  of  measurement  indicated 
in  its  various  stages  to  the  100  test-deuKjnstration  farms  in  the  Norris  sub- 
region,  it  is  indicated  from  carefully  analyzed  records  that  by  December  31, 
1939: 

Eighty-three  farms  had  reached  stage  1. 

Seventy-one  had  reached  stages  1  and  2. 

Fifty-two  farms  had  reached  stages  1,  2,  and  3. 

Thirty-seven  farms  had  reached  stages  1,  2,  3,  and  4. 

Thirty-three  farms  had  reached  stages  1,  2,  3,  4,  and  5. 

Twenty  farms  had  reached  stages  1,  2,  3,  4,  5,  and  6. 

Nine  farms  had  reached  stages  1,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  and  7. 

The  full  significance  of  this  remarkable  record  of  progress  is  revealed  in 
certain  specific  facts.  On  the  71  farms  which  showed  greater  vigor  in  live- 
stock, there  was  an  increase  of  9  in  the  number  of  calves  born  per  100 
cows.  Of  the  37  farms  which  showed  improvement  in  land-use,  acreage  in 
corn  was  reduced  by  20  percent,  acreage  of  legumes  and  grasses  for  hay  and 
pasture  was  increased  by  If)  percent,  acreage  in  winter  cover  crops  was  in- 
creased by  26  percent,  the  number  of  cows  kept  was  increased  by  18  percent, 
the  number  of  calves  raised  was  increased  by  49  percent,  the  number  of  cattle 
and  calves  bought  was  increased  by  25  percent,  and  the  quantities  of  dairy 
products  sold  were  increased  by  15  percent. 

Of  the  20  farms  which  attained  improved  family  welfare,  cash  farm  income 
increased  from  $389  to  $705  per  farm,  or  by  more  than  93  percent.  This  increase 
was  made  in  spite  of  lower  prices  in  1939  than  in  1935  for  4  of  the  5 
major  farm  products  sold,  i.  e.,  tobacco,  poultry  and  eggs,  dairy  products, 
and  hogs,  and  higher  prices  for  only  1  major  product,  i.  e.,  beef  cattle.  That 
increased  family  welfare  tends  to  strengthen  community  welfare  is  suggested 
by  the  fact  that  a  large  part  of  the  increased  spendable  cash  income  on  these 
farms  was  used  for  improvements  in  farm  homes,  barns,  and  fences,  and  for 
the  purchase  of  machinery.  There  is  evidence  that  the  improved  family  welfare 
of  the  Norris  farms  has  increased  industrial  employment  and  al.so  the  demand 
for  labor  on  the  farm. 

The  University  of  Tennessee  recently  conducted  a  study  of  changes  in  the 
status  of  farm  labor  on  1,126  test-demonstration  farms  in  the  Tennessee  River 
watershed  of  the  State  of  Tennessee."^  These  farms  represent  a  wide  variety 
of  farming  conditions.  On  a  comparison  of  figures  for  1935  and  1938.  the 
number  of  man-days  of  productive  labor  per  farm  increased  by  1.2  percent 
for  the  State  as  a  whole.  During  this  same  period,  the  number  of  man-days 
of  productive  labor  per  farm  on  the  1,126  test-demonstration  farms  increa.sed 
by  3.7  percent,  approximately  3  times  the  increase  for  the  State.  Despite 
a  decline  of  11.5  percent  in  the  price  of  all  farm  commodities,  the  1,126  test- 
demonstration  farms  increased  their  expenditure  for  hired  and  cropper  labor 
by  17  percent.  Gross  farm  income  increased  by  11.1  percent,  an  increase 
greater  by  30.9  percent  than  the  increase  for  the  State  as  a  whole. 


*  Report  to  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  by  the  Tennessee  Extension  Service. 


3810 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Cotton  farms  have  long  been  characterized  by  unstable  and  low-priced  farm 
labor  The  effect  of  the  test-demonstration  program  on  this  type  of  farm 
may  "be  appraised  roughly  by  comparing  the  1,126  farms,  which  represent 
diverse  types  of  farming  conditions,  with  a  group  of  121  of  these  farms  on  which 
cotton  constitutes  the  principal  cash  crop.  While  the  1,126  farms  showed  an 
average  increase  of  3.7  percent  in  productive  man-work  units,  the  121  cotton 
farms  showed  an  increase  of  5.1  percent.  Despite  a  decline  of  almost  30 
percent  in  the  price  of  cotton,  the  121  farms  increased  their  expenditures 
for  hired  and  cropper  labor  by  1  percent.  Gross  farm  income  increased  by 
27  4  DGrccnt. 

The  scope  of  the  program  of  test-demonstration  is  suggested  by  the  fact  that 
at  the  close  of  the  fiscal  year  1940  there  were  8,244  unit  test  farms  in  the 
Tennessee  Valley,  covering  1,401,397  acres,  and  14,866  area  test  farms  covering 
1828,296  acres.  As  of  the  same  date,  there  were  7,573  unit  test  farms  with 
an  acreage  of  1,660,325  outside  of  the  valley.  Furthermore,  to  date,  the  Author- 
ity has  supplied  the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration  with  more  than 
200,000  tons  of  concentrated  phosphate  fertilizer  for  use  in  its  educational 
program  of  soil  conservation. 

Partly  as  a  direct  result  of  the  research  and  test-demonstration  program, 
more  than  twice  as  much  plant  nutrient  is  now  being  returned  to  the  land  at 
the  same  cost  as  would  be  possible  under  the  usual  fertilizer  procedure.  Not 
only  is  the  amount  per  unit  cost  of  plant  food  returned  to  the  soil  increasing, 
but  the  total  amount  is  also  rising.  The  Alabama  Extension  Service  recently 
surveyed  20  counties  in  central  and  southern  Alabama,  10  of  which  contained 
farms  conducting  test  demonstrations  with  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  triple 
superphosphate  on  pastures  and  10  of  which  did  not.  During  the  years  1987 
and  1938,  the  counties  in  which  demonstrations  w^ith  Tennessee  Valley  Au- 
thority phosphates  were  conducted  used  11,034  tons  of  phosphate  on  pastures, 
while  the  other  counties  used  only  857  tons.  It  is  interesting  to  note  that 
of  the  11,034  tons  used  in  the  demonstration  counties,  only  1,094  tons  were 
supplied  by  the  Authority  through  the  Extension  Service  and  869  tons  through 
the  Agricultural  Adjustment  Administration.  The  remaining  9,071  tons  were 
supplied  by  the  fertilizer  industry."" 

Thus,  the  test-demonstration  program  points  the  way  toward  identifying  a 
method  which  may  be  useful  in  formulating  national  policy  aimed  at  increasing 
economic  opportunity  on  the  farm  and  thereby  decreasing  the  migration  of 
farm  labor.  The  program  tends  to  develop  and  verify  a  technique  by  which 
individual  farmers  can  contribute  toward  increasing  the  volume  of  productive 
work  requirements  on  the  farm,  increasing  the  demand  for  hired  and  cropper 
labor,  and  increasing  the  remuneration  of  farm  labor.  Through  the  completely 
democratic  process  of  voluntary  testing  by  individual  farmers  under  arrange- 
ments making  the  results  available  to  the  community  at  large,  farmers  are 
encouraged  to  obtain  and  private  industry  to  supply  improved  fertilizer  prod- 
ucts for  use  in  conjunction  with  scientific  land  utilization  programs.  In  this 
way  is  promoted  a  balanced  agricultural  economy  which  in  time  can  form  the 
basis  of  expanding  opportunities  for  the  region. 

2.  Activities  Directed  to  Encouragement  of  Forestry  Development 

The  Authority  is  providing  assistance  to  landowners  and  others  through  its 
program  of  testing  and  demonstrating  improved  methods  of  checking  excessive 
water  run-off,  soil  erosion,  and  forest  and  wildlife  depletion.  This  program 
is  concerned  with  increasing  the  production  capacity  and  the  protective  value  of 
the  soil  and  water  resources  associated  with  the  valley's  13.500,000  acres  of 
forest  land.  It  assumes  the  desirability  of  providing  a  protective  watershed 
cover  which  is  also  highly  productive  and  therefore  useful  in  increasing  em- 
ployment and  income  standards  of  the  people  of  the  region  and  in  reducing 
interstate  migration  of  population.  Accomplishments  of  the  program  may  be 
described  in  terms  of:  (1)  reforestation  for  erosion  and  run-off  control,  (2) 
forest  fire  control,  (3)  forest  development,  and  f4)   wildlife  readjustment. 

(1)  The  approach  to  the  problem  of  reforestation  for  erosion  and  run-off 
control  is  largely  one  of  cooperation  between  individual  landowners,  on  the  one 


2»  Report  to  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  by  the  Alabama  Extension  Service. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3811 

hand,  and  the  State  Extension  Services  and  the  Authority,  on  the  other.  The 
State  Extension  Services  coordinate  the  forestry  and  engineering  worlv  of 
erosion  control  with  farm  development  in  such  a  manner  as  to  meet  the  needs 
and  gain  the  active  participation  of  the  individual  farmer.  Under  the  "direct 
cooperation"  method,  the  landowner  plants  trees  furnished  by  Tennessee  Valley 
Authority  nurseries,  furnishes  needed  materials,  and  does  other  work  luider 
such  technical  guidance  as  may  be  necessary  from  Tennessee  Valley  Authority 
foresters  and  engineers  and  from  the  Extension  Service  personnel.  Where 
erosion  control  or  demonstrations  for  erosion  control  are  needed  in  the  public 
interest,  and  where  the  severity  of  erosion  makes  too  great  a  labor  problem 
for  the  landowner  alone,  the  Civilian  Conservation  Corps  provides  the  necessary 
labor  force  from  18  Tennessee  Valley  Authority-Civilian  Conservation  Corps 
camps  which  are  provided  and  administered  by  the  United  States  Forest 
Service.  In  such  instances  also  the  landowner  contributes  his  own  labor,  use 
of  his  teams  and  equipment,  and  local  materials  for  fencing,  site  preparation, 
and  gully  control. 

Through  these  procedures  significant  accomplishments  have  been  achieved 
during  the  last  7  years.  Approximately  110,000,000  trees  have  been  planted 
on  privately  owned  and  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  lands;  62,433,000  of  these 
have  been  planted  with  Civilian  Conservation  Corps  help  on  41,000  eroding 
acres  on  5,700  valley  farms;  11,192,000  of  these  have  been  planted  on  9,900 
acres  in  the  valley  by  farmers  themselves  in  3,400  "direct  cooperation"  projects. 

In  order  to  be  assured  of  a  supply  of  trees  for  this  work,  the  Authority 
operates  two  large  forest  nurseries  at  Norris  and  at  Muscle  Shoals,  which 
together  produce  approximately  25,000,000  seedlings  annually. 

To  date  some  8,000  supplemental  engineering  projects  have  been  completed 
for  gully  control  and  about  540  water-disposal  projects  have  been  constructed 
for  terrace  outlet  control.  In  this,  as  in  much  of  its  reforestation  work,  the 
Authority  and  cooperating  State  extension  services  furnish  supervision,  the 
Civilian  Conservation  Corps  provides  labor,  and  private  landowners  supply 
their  own  labor,  use  of  teams  and  equipment,  and  local  materials  such  as 
fencing.  The  work  is  coordinated  closely  with  agricultural  development  on 
demonstration  farms. 

(2)  The  Authority's  approach  to  the  problem  of  forest-fire  control  has 
been  to  cooperate  through  established  Government  agencies  in  promoting 
public  education  for  the  prevention  and  control  of  fires.  Since  1934,  some 
4009  educational  motion-picture  programs  have  been  presented  to  more  than 
600,000  persons  in  hundreds  of  communities  located  in  87  counties  in  Virginia, 
Tennessee,  North  Cai'olina,  Georgia,  Mississippi,  and  Alabama. 

Tennessee  Valley  Authority-Civilian  Conservation  Corps  camps  have  helped 
to  extinguish  more  than  1,300  forest  fires  in  the  past  7  years,  and  have  given 
assistance  in  the  construction  of  6  fire  towers,  several  telephone  lines,  fire 
breaks,  truck  trails,  and  similar  improvements.  With  Civilian  Conservation 
Corps  help,  the  Authority  has  provided  assistance  to  cooperating  States  in 
developing  fire  detection  and  communication  systems  and  in  strengthening 
their  organization  for  fire  control. 

(3)  The  Authority  is  laying  the  foundation  for  greater  income  to  the  people 
of  the  valley  through  its  cooperative  activities  and  investigations  directed 
at  forest  development.  Comprehensive  surveys  indicate  tliat  restoration  of 
forest  resources  of  the  valley  and  rehabilitation  of  its  decadent  forest  indus- 
tries are  capable  of  increasing  by  200  to  300  percent  the  amount  of 
local  employment,  business,  and  income  now  obtained  from  them.  The  pos- 
sibilities are  summarized  in  the  following  paragraphs  extracted  from  a  booklet 
entitled  "Forest  and  Human  Welfare,"  published  by  the  Tennessee  Valley 
Authority  with  the  cooperation  of  land-grant  colleges  and  universities,  Depart- 
ments of  Con.servation  and  Forestry  Divisions  of  Alabama,  Georgia,  Kentucky, 
Mississippi,  North  Carolina,  Tennessee,  and  Virginia,  the  United  States  Forest 
Service,  the  United  States  Biological  Survey,  the  United  States  Bureau  of 
Fisheries,  and  other  agencies: 

"What  are  some  reasonable  possibilities  of  a  sound  forestry  program  in  the 
Tennessee  Valley?     *     *     * 

"The  estimates  *  *  *  show  that  under  moderately  good  protection  and 
management  the  valley's  saw-timber  resource  can  l3e  built  up  to  70,000,000,000 
board  feet.     It  is  now  only  22,000.000,000.     Likewi.se,  it  appears  that  the  cor- 

260.370—41 — pt.  9 23 


Q01  2  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

responding  reserve  of  smaller   trees    (cordwood)    could  be  112,000,000  instead 
of  91,000,000  cords.  .,,.,«•.•, 

"The  larger  reserves  would  then  be  expected  to  yield  indefinitely  an  annual 
crop,  based  on  current  prices,  of  $130,000,000  worth  of  products  for  industrial 
and  farm  use.  Present  annual  production  is  valued  at  only  about  $53,000,000. 
Yet,  this  lower  output  is  removing  saw-timber-sized  trees  faster  than  they 
are  growing  back. 

"Care  of  the  improved  forest,  harvesting,  and  processing  products  would  invite 
the  equivalent  of  some  100,000  full-time  jobs.  Employment  is  now  less  than  70,000. 
"These  are  not  mere  possibilities.  They  are  certain  to  come  about  in  a  few 
decades  if  we  but  give  forests  good  protection  and  management.  With  such 
attention,  average  woodland  of  the  valley  builds  up  a  substantial  growing  stock 
and  begins  to  yield  well  of  valuable  saw  timber  in  20  to  30  years.  Meanwhile, 
management  calls  for  cuttings  of  fuel  wood,  fence  posts,  and  pulpwood,  which 
produce  income  as  they  improve  the  forest." 

In  addition  to  increased  employment  and  business  which  can  be  secured  directly 
as  a  result  of  increased  forest  yields,  rehabilitation  of  the  valley's  forest  and  re- 
lated wildlife  resource  provides  attractive  opportunities  for  increasing  local  in- 
come through  the  development  of  recreation  facilities.  Furthermore,  forest 
industries  rank  high  among  potential  users  of  water  transportation  and  electric 
power. 

To  assist  in  achieving  these  ends,  the  Authority  has  conducted  important  forest 
economic  investigations  in  cooperation  with  the  United  States  Forest  Service  and 
other  Government  and  quasi-public  agencies  on  matters  relating  to :  The  extent, 
condition,  and  location  of  forest  resources ;  marketing  and  utilization  of  forest 
products;  long-range  planning  for  determining  the  effects  of  various  types  of 
ownership  of  forest  lands  on  land-use  economy ;  possibilities  of  cooperative  forest 
mana^^ement  and  protection;  and  readjustment  and  development  of  wood-using 
industries.  Silvicultural  and  forest-management  studies  are  being  conducted  to 
provide  information  on  (a)  the  efficiency  of  various  land-use  measures  and  vege- 
tal covers  for  water  and  erosion  control,  and  (b)  improved  methods  of  forest 
management. 

Forest-tree  crop  investigations  are  being  conducted  in  order  to  discover,  develop, 
and  test  superior  strains  of  trees  which  may  provide  increased  sources  of  income 
when  used  for  reforestation  or  erosion  control.  More  than  1,000.000  trees  of  spe- 
cial seedling  stock  have  been  gro^ai  for  experimental  use  in  the  Authority's  re- 
forestation, erosion  control,  and  wildlife  development  programs ;  in  addition, 
82,500  trees  have  been  used  as  grafted  or  budded  stock,  or  as  cuttings  for  experi- 
mental and  demonstration  purposes.  The  Authority's  arboretum  of  selected  trees 
is  probably  the  most  comprehensive  collection  of  species  of  this  type  in  the  United 
States.  It  contains  more  than  300  varieties.  In  the  development  of  tree-crop  si^e- 
cies  or  varieties  for  general  use  on  the  farm,  more  than  1,100  kinds  have  been 
investigated,  and  many  of  these  have  been  selected  for  further  study  and  testing. 
Studies  to  date  include  superior  varieties  of  black  walnut,  northern  pecan,  blight- 
resistant  chestnut,  persimmon,  thornless  honey  locust,  and  several  select  varieties 
of  black  locust. 

Demonstration  tests  of  a  tree's  practical  value  and  adaptability  are  made  under 
actual  farm  conditions  through  the  cooperation  of  interested  landowners  selected 
by  the  Extension  Services.  Certain  investigations  are  being  conducted  cooper- 
atively with  the  Soil  Conservation  Sei-vice  and  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Plant 
Industry. 

Cooperative  test  plots  have  been  establishd  at  Blacksburg,  Va.,  and  Raleigh, 
N.  C,  in  order  to  test  the  beneficial  effect  of  widely  spaced  honey  locust  trees  on 
grass  production  and  the  carrying  capacity  of  pastures.  These  tests  are  designed 
to  determine  whether  honey  locust  can  be  economically  used  for  pasture  shade  and 
forage  production.  Other  investigations  are  being  conducted  in  order  to  determine 
the  feed  value  of  honey-locust  pods.  Several  species  of  shrubs  and  ground-cover 
plants  are  under  test  and  observation  in  order  to  determine  their  soil-holding 
value  when  used  in  roadbanks,  gullies,  and  ditches.  Other  tree  and  shrub  species 
are  being  tested  as  a  source  of  wildlife  food. 

(4)  Wildlife  readjustment  is  being  promoted  by  the  Authority  principally  to 
correct  maladjustments  caused  by  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  reservoir  impound- 
ments.    It  is  the  incidental  ^aim  of  this  program  to  achieve  a  better  balanced 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3813 

wildlife  in  the  region,  with  resulting  increases  in  income,  food,  and  recreation 
from  fish,  fur,  and  game  resources. 

Two  fish  hatcheries  and  several  rearing  ponds  now  operated  cooperatively  by 
the  United  States  Fish  and  Wildlife  Service  have  been  constructed  by  the  Au- 
thority in  order  to  rehabilitate  the  fish  and  game  resources  of  the  valley.  A 
current  creel  census  of  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  waters  indicates  that  the 
recreational  value  of  fish  resources  is  great,  and  that  the  value  of  the  rough  fish 
taken  for  table  use  and  for  the  market  is  substantial.  More  than  450,000  fisher- 
man-days were  recorded  on  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  reservoirs  in  Alabama 
during  March,  April,  and  May,  1940 ;  some  57,000  fisherman-days  were  recorded 
on  Norris  Reservoir  during  the  month  of  June  1940.  It  requires  little  imagina- 
tion to  translate  these  data  into  new  income  of  significant  consequence  for  the 
residents  and  business  enterprises  of  the  area.  Studies  conducted  by  the  Au- 
thority indicate  that  a  balanced  development  of  wildlife  will  furnish  substantial 
income  to  the  people  of  the  valley  and  thereby  also  serve  to  reduce  migration  to 
other  areas  of  the  Nation. 

3.  Activities  Designed  to  Aid  Enterprise  by  Providing  New  Industrial  Processes 
and  Facts  Concerning  Resources  of  the  Region  and  Their  Possible  Uses 

Migrant  workers  have  left  certain  regions  because  the  resource  base  for  new 
enterprise  has  been  lacking  or  has  been  used  up.  Examples  in  the  Tennessee 
Valley  already  cited  have  been  the  depletion  of  hardwood  forests  in  some  areas 
and  loss  of  productivity  of  the  soil  in  other  areas  through  erosion  and  improper 
cropping  practices.  The  Authority's  programs  of  reforestation  and  soil  conser- 
vation are  helping  to  build  back  these  resources.  But  compared  with  other  re- 
gions, the  Tennessee  Valley  still  has  an  abundance  and  variety  of  raw  materials 
and  sources  of  energy  for  industry. 

What  is  srill  needed  is  a  way  to  convert  these  resources  into  productive  jobs. 
The  transfer  of  existing  manufacturing  establishments  from  one  area  to  another 
is  not  the  solution  from  the  point  of  view  of  the  Nation  as  a  whole,  since  this 
will  help  one  area  at  the  expense  of  another. 

New  manufacturing  opportunities  must  be  created  and  the  birthplace  for 
such  enterprises  in  the  laboratory.  Research  activities  are  underway  in  the 
Tennessee  Valley  which  are  designed  to  aid  enterprise  by  providing  new  indus- 
trial processes  and  facts  concerning  resources  of  the  region  and  their  possible 
uses.  Appropriate  steps  are  being  taken  to  enable  business  to  visualize  and  take 
advantage  of  new  opportunities. 

The  following  examples  of  research  conducted  by  the  Tennessee  Valley  Author- 
ity, in  cooperation  with  other  agencies,  are  illustrative  of  the  work  which  it 
performs  in  this  connection. 

QXnCK   FREEZING   AS   A   NEW   RURAL  INDUSTRY 

The  immersion  quick-freezing  system,  which  was  developed  by  the  Authority 
in  cooperation  with  the  University  of  Tennessee  Engineering  Experiment  Station, 
has  reached  the  stage  of  commercial  application.  Chickamauga  Producers,  Inc., 
a  farm  cooperative,  has  leased  the  experimental  freezing  plant  at  Cleveland, 
Tenn.,  and  in  the  spring  of  1940  produced  and  sold  approximately  285,000  pounds 
of  strawberries  and  peas,  of  which  115,000  pounds  were  quick  frozen  and  the 
others  cold  packed.  Through  the  operation  of  this  plant  it  was  possible  to  pay 
the  strawberry  growers  a  premium  price  for  their  strawberries  notwithstanding 
adverse  weather  conditions.  In  addition,  apiwoximately  20O  girls  and  a  few 
men  were  employed  in  the  new  processing  plant. 

Processing  plants  such  as  this  can  double  the  income  of  an  area  from  products 
so  processed.  The  cost  sheet  for  the  above  strawberry-freezing  operation  shows 
that  people  in  the  area  received  for  labor,  supplies,  and  raw  materials  twice  the 
amounts  wliich  would  have  been  obtained  from  the  sale  of  their  strawberries 
at  prevailing  fresh  market  prices.  If  crops  are  sold  on  the  fresh  market,  they 
must  be  disposed  of  immediately  at  spot  market  prices.  Often  these  prices 
are  so  low  that  it  does  not  pay  the  farmer  to  harvest  all  of  the  crop.  A  proc- 
essing plant  means  an  assured  market  for  quality  products,  employment  for 


3814 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


people  of  the  area,  and  additional  income  from  the  sale  of  supplies  and  materials 
when  these  are  available  locally. 

A  quick-freezing  plant  can  be  operated  to  freeze  various  products  8  months  out 
of  the  year,  dravping  on  a  permanent  rather  than  on  a  seasonal  and,  to  a  large 
extent,  migrant  labor  supply. 

IMPROVING  PRESENT  EURAL  INDUSTRIES   BY   RESEIARCH 

Engineers  in  the  past  have  worked  on  problems  of  urban  industry  rather  than 
those  of  the  rural  area,  which  are  equally  in  need  of  the  help  of  modern 
research. 

For  example,  the  cottonseed-crushing  industry,  whose  products  are  worth 
$300,000,000  annually,  has  in  the  past  operated  by  rule-of-thumb  methods.  En- 
gineering research  and  technical  control  have  been  lacking.  The  present  possi- 
bilities for  a  research  program  to  achieve  significant  results  in  a  case  of  this 
kind  are  large  precisely  because  of  neglect  in  the  past.  To  illustrate,  the 
University  of  Tennessee  Engineering  Experiment  Station  initiated  a  study  of  the 
cottonseed-cooking  process.  With  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  help  a  new  type 
of  pressure  cooker  was  developed  and  operated  in  connection  with  full-size  com- 
mercial press-room  equipment.  Results  convinced  mill  operators  who  sent  their 
seed  in  to  be  processed  that  greater  oil  recovery  and  other  advantages  would 
pay  for  the  new  equipment  in  one  or  two  seasons'  operation.  If  all  of  the 
industry  adopts  the  new  method,  savings  would  amount  to  $3,000,000  per  year. 
Three  cottonseed  mill  machinery  companies  are  now  making  and  installing  this 
type  of  equipment  under  a  license  arrangement,  under  which  income  from  fees 
will  be  applied  to  further  research. 

With  value  added  to  the  oil  and  other  products  of  the  cotton  plant,  less 
dependence  need  be  placed  by  the  farmer  on  the  price  of  cotton  filler.  The  new 
equipment,  by  improving  the  product  and  simplyfying  operation,  strengthens  the 
position  of  the  small  rural  mill,  thus  ensuring  continued  employment  where  most 
needed. 

A  number  of  other  projects  are  at  various  stages  of  exi)erimental  development. 
One  of  these  is  the  development  of  flax  as  a  new  southern  crop  to  give  fiber  and 
linseed  oil.  Resulting  diversification  would  lessen  dependence  upon  cotton.  An- 
other promising  project  relates  to  a  more  widespread  southern  resource  than 
cotton,  namely,  wood.  New  uses  for  waste  products  and  cull  timlier  are  being 
sought.  In  addition  to  new  uses  as  a  building  and  insulating  material,  wood 
can  furnish  automatic  heat  for  homes  and  fuel  for  internal  combustion  engines 
for  farm  use.  In  many  low  incomes  areas  of  the  Tennessee  Valley,  second-growth 
timber  is  the  only  raw-material  resource  on  which  to  build  new  industry. 

NETVV   MINERAL  RESOURCE  DEVHLOPJIENTS 

How  private  initiative  can  make  the  results  of  public  research  the  basis  for 
new  industry  is  illustrated  in  the  field  of  mineral  research.  Vermiculite.  a 
material  similar  to  mica  which  exfoliates  about  10  times  its  original  volume  when 
heated,  has  been  coming  into  use  as  a  thermal  and  acoustical  insulating  ma- 
terial. Its  light  weight  and  insulating  properties  make  it  a  desirable  material 
in  building  construction.  Interest  in  the  North  Carolina  deposits  of  the  mineral 
resulted  largely  from  a  field  survey  and  experimental  work  by  the  Authority. 
But  the  utilization  of  this  research  was  due  to  three  companies  which  proceeded 
to  produce  the  material.  Increasing  uses  for  it  promise  to  lead  to  expansion 
into  a  sizeable  industry,  giving  employment  to  people  of  the  valley  area.  One 
mining  operator  is  producing  it  for  lightweight  concrete. 

Kaolin,  olivine,  talc,  and  mica  are  other  lesser  krown  minerals  for  which  Ten- 
nessee Valley  Authority  technicians  have  discovered  new  uses  offering  opportuni- 
ties for  economic  expansion. 

INDUSTRIAL   ECONOMIC    RESEARCH 

In  addition  to  the  long-time  research  approach  to  the  problem  of  industrial 
growth  in  low  income  areas,  the  Authority  has  other  channels  for  enabling  busi- 
ness leaders  to  visualize  and  take  advantage  of  new  opportunities  for  local 
industry  based  on  utilization  of  the  region's  resources. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3815 

During  its  7  years  of  operation,  the  Authority  has  built  up  a  body  of  facts  and 
economic  data  about  the  resources  of  the  area  in  their  relation  to  transportation, 
electric  power,  and  markets.  This  information  is  available  to  business  leaders 
interested  in  local  development. 

GENERAL  ECONOMICS  EESEAKCH 

Closely  akin  to  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  research  designed  to  assist  enter- 
prise in  the  development  of  new  resources  are  other  research  activities  conducted 
by  the  Authority  to  determine  basic  facts  in  connection  with  the  relationship  of 
the  region's  economic  development  to  that  of  the  country  as  a  whole. 

To  obtain  a  better  understanding  of  the  factors  responsible  for  the  South's  long- 
continued  depression,  the  Authority  in  its  very  earliest  days  gathered  a  staff  to 
study  and  report  on  conditions  which  hinder  the  region's  full  economic  develop- 
ment. Largely  because  of  this  activity,  a  major  southern  transportation  handi- 
cap, long  known  to  many  traffic  men,  but  not  fully  understood  by  the  public,  was 
brought  to  the  attention  of  Congress  and  the  public,  and  the  machinery  for  its 
removal  has  already  been  created  and  set  in  motion. 

In  the  Southeast,  the  ma.ior  source  of  employment  has  long  been  an  agriculture 
devoted  to  the  production  of  what  have  in  recent  years  come  to  be  surplus  com- 
modities— cotton,  tobacco,  and  corn  are  the  leading  examples.  Because  of  the 
great  surplus  of  rural  iwpulation,  both  farm  income  and  urban  wages  in  the 
Southeast  are  lower  than  those  elsewhere.  Such  a  situation  in  conjunction  with 
other  genuine  southern  advantages,  such  as  mild  climate,  low-cost  fuel  and  power, 
low  rents  and  taxes,  and  abundance  of  raw  materials,  should  normally  result  in  a 
large  industrial  development  continuing  to  the  point  where  the  surplus  population 
was  absorbed  and  the  region's  level  of  income  had  risen  to  that  prevailing  in  other 
parts  of  the  United  States.  To  a  limited  extent  such  a  natural  adjustment  has 
actually  taken  place.  In  seeking  the  reasons  for  its  not  having  taken  place  on 
a  sufficient  scale,  students  of  the  region  have  long  suspected  that  artificial  barriers 
stood  in  the  way. 

As  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  transportation  economics  research  presently 
developed,  a  high  artificial  barrier  does  hamper  development,  in  the  form  of 
railway  freight  rates,  w^hich  discourages  the  manufacture  of  high-class  goods  in 
the  South.  A  Tennessee  Valley  report,  the  Interterritorial  Freight  Rate  Problem 
of  the  United  States,  sent  to  Congress  in  ]May  1937  and  published  as  House 
Document  No.  204,  Seventy-fifth  Congress,  first  session,  showed  the  precise  amount 
of  discrimination  and  brought  the  issue  squarely  into  public  notice  and  under- 
standing. The  report  revealed  two  highly  significant  facts.  First,  the  South 
and  the  other  great  raw-materials  regions  suffer  severely  under  the  rate  handi- 
caps. Second,  the  discrimination  against  the  South  is  without  justification, 
because  the  cost  to  the  railroads  of  rendering  freight-transportation  service  is 
on  the  average  no  higher  in  the  Southeast  than  in  the  Northeast.  The  reiwrt  has 
been  recognized  as  an  authoritative  document  on  the  interregional  rate  situation. 

In  the  same  month  that  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  report  was  published, 
the  governors  of  eight  southern  States  asked  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commis- 
sion for  lower  rates  on  a  number  of  manufactured  products  in  movement  from 
the  Southeast  to  the  Northeast.  In  February  1939  a  second  Tennessee  Valley 
Authority  report.  Supplemental  Phases  of  the  Interterritorial  Freight  Rate  Prob- 
lem (subsequently  published  as  H.  Doc.  No.  271,  76th  Cong.,  1st  sess.),  was  sent  to 
the  President.  The  major  points  it  adds  to  information  on  the  subject  are  that 
discrimination  against  the  South  and  other  raw-materials  regions  grew  even 
greater  under  the  1938  uniform  10-percenl  rise  in  most  freight  rates  throughout 
the  country,  and  that  a  large  part  of  eastern  Canada  enjoys  cheaper  transporta- 
tion arrangements  with  the  northeastern  United  States  than  do  the  southeastern 
States,  in  spite  of  the  lower  costs  of  operating  railroads  in  the  Southeast  than 
in  Canada. 

In  the  summer  of  1939  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  announced  that 
it  would  undertake  an  investigation  of  class  rates  in  all  the  territory  ea.st  of 
the  Rocky  Mountains — a  proceeding  which  is  now  in  the  preliminary  stages. 
In  November  1039  the  Southern  Governors'  case  was  decided  by  the  Commission. 
Its  decision  resulted  in  the  establishment  of  rates  on  a  few  types  of  manufactured 
goods  between  the  Southeast  and  the  Northeast  on  the  same  level  as  prevails 
in  the  Northeast.  The  decision  did  not  affect,  however,  a  multitude  of  class  rates 
not  considered  in  this  particular  decision. 


3816 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Under  new  legislation  enacted  in  October  1940,  the  existing  legal  definition  of 
discrimination  is  apparently  extended  so  as  to  apply  to  unjust  discrimination, 
as  between  regions.  The  final  outcome,  for  the  South,  now  depends  on  the  Inter- 
state Commerce  Commission's  findings  in  the  pending  investigation  on  the  ques- 
tion of  whether  existing  discriminations  are  justified  by  regional  differences  in 
the  cost  of  conducting  the  business  of  freight  transportation. 

While  the  precise  effect  is  beyond  the  realm  of  measurement,  it  is  clear  that 
the  scheme  of  discriminatory  regionalized  freight  rates  tends  to  perpetuate  the 
conditions  which  have  retarded  southern  industrial  development.  It  is,  there- 
fore, responsible  in  part  for  the  continuing  migration  of  southerners  into  northern 
industrial  districts.  In  the  measure  that  the  Southeast  is  afforded  relief  by 
these  pending  proceedings  which  will  make  possible  a  greater  industrial  develop- 
ment in  the  region,  to  that  extent  will  the  existing  pressure  toward  migration 
give  way  to  the  attractions  of  increased  opportunity  at  home. 

4.  Activities  in  Establishing  Mass-Consumption  Pricing  Policies  in  the  Sale 
of  Electricity 

It  is  today  almost  universally  recognized  that  expanding  production  and  dis- 
tribution of  the  products  of  industry,  together  with  the  rising  standard  of  living 
in  which  such  expansion  results,  depends  upon  an  almost  constant  lowering 
of  prices.  Large-scale  production  made  possible  by  substantial  price  reductions 
over  a  period  of  years  is  exemplified  by  the  automobile,  radio,  refrigerator,  and 
numerous  other  industries. 

Competition  exerts  in  most  industries  a  strong  pull  in  the  direction  of  the 
price-reduction  policies  which  are  essential  to  increasing  consumption.  "Where 
monopoly  exists,  on  the  other  hand,  the  incentive  to  reduce  prices  is  slight,  since 
adequate  profits  may  be  realized  by  maintaining  prices  at  an  artificial  level 
without  seeking  an  increased  volume  of  production  and  sales.  Public  regulation, 
in  the  case  of  legal  monopolies  such  as  electric  utilities,  has  failed  to  supply  the 
urge  which  is  needed. 

To  the  extent,  therefore,  that  governmental  activity  can  assist  in  restoring 
vitality  to  pricing  policies  in  the  electrical  utility  industry  or  other  legally 
monopolized  fields,  it  is  in  effect  helping  to  bring  about  industrial  expansion, 
not  only  in  the  electrical  industry  itself  but  also  in  other  industries  whose  costs — 
and  prices — are  determined  to  any  extent  by  the  amounts  they  pay  for  electricity 
which  they  use  in  the  industrial  process. 

This  is  the  basis  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority's  electric  power  program. 
In  September  1933  the  Authority  announced  the  schedule  of  resale  rates  which 
were  to  be  included  in  its  contracts  with  wholesale  customers.  These  rates 
represented  a  drastic  reduction  in  electricity  prices — as  much  as  50  percent  of 
the  existing  level  of  private  rates  in  some  instances.  The  purpose  of  the 
Tennessee  Valley  Authority  promotional  rate  schedules  was  to  match  mass 
production  by  m'ass  consumption.  The  results  have  more  than  justified  expec- 
tations. 

CONSUMER   SAVINGS 

As  of  August  1,  1940,  the  savings  resulting  from  the  application  of  Tennessee 
Valley  Authority  resale  rates  to  customers  served  by  the  Authority's  distribu- 
tors totaled  $9,100,000.  This  total  was  distributed  86  percent  to  residential 
customers,  35  percent  to  commercial  customers,  26  percent  to  industrial  users, 
and  the  balance,  3  percent,  to  municipal  street-lighting  customers. 

The  Authority's  contract  with  its  wholesale  distributors  provides  that  all 
earnings  which  remain  after  the  payment  of  operating  expenses,  depreciation, 
taxes,  interest,  and  other  fixed  obligations,  may  be  used  for  system  expansion, 
for  the  retirement  of  the  bonded  indebtedness  prior  to  maturity  date,  or  for 
further  reductions  in  rates.  At  present  the  first  two  alternatives  account  for 
most  of  the  distributors'  surplus  earnings.  As  debts  are  reduced  and  systems 
expanded  toward  the  limit  of  economic  feasibility,  the  principal  means  of  dis- 
posing of  surplus  earnings  will  be  in  further  rate  reductions.  Already  two 
distributors,  the  Alcorn  County  Association  and  the  city  of  Tupelo,  in  Missis- 
sippi, have  reduced  their  rates  below  the  basic  Tennessee  Valley  Authority 
level. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


3817 


INCREASED   USE   OF   ELECTRICITY 

In  the  years  between  1934  and  1940  the  Authority  was  engaged  in  acquiring 
an  integrated  market  area  in  which  it  could  dispose  of  its  surplus  power. 
During  the  period  that  this  market  area  was  being  developed,  average  use 
statistics  are  distorted  somewhat  by  the  acquisition  of  properties  having  a 
lower  or  higher  average  use  than  that  prevailing  on  the  Authority's  system 
at  the  date  of  acquisition.  It  can  be  said,  liowever,  tliat  the  average  use  of 
residential  customers  served  by  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  contractors  has 
always  been  considerably  higher  than  the  national  average.  The  average  resi- 
dential rate  has  been  much  lower  than  the  national  average.  For  the  12  months 
ending  August  1940  the  average  use  in  the  Nation  was  934  kilowatt-hours,  and 
the  average  rate  3.89  cents  per  kilowatt-hour.  In  the  same  period,  the  average 
residential  use  of  customers  served  from  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  system 
was  1,389  kilowatt-hours,  and  the  average  rate  2.10  cents  per  kilowatt-hour. 
Thus,  the  average  use  in  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  area  was  49  percent 
higher  than  that  prevailing  in  the  Nation,  while  the  average  rate  was  46 
l>ercent  lower. 

EFFECT  OF  TENNESSEE  VALLEY  AUTHORITY  RATES   ON  RATES,   SALES,   AND   ElARNINGS   OF 
PRIVATE  COMPANIES   IN   THE  AREA 

The  announcement  of  Tennessee  Valley  Authority's  promotional  rate  schedule 
led  private  companies  in  the  area  to  reduce  their  rates  substantially.  Thus, 
between  1932  and  1939,  the  average  residential  rate  for  the  country  as  a  whole 
decreased  28  percent.  The  percentage  reduction  for  the  Alabama  Power  Co. 
during  the  same  period  was  42  percent ;  that  for  the  Georgia  Power  Co.  was 
46  percent;  and  that  for  the  Tennessee  Electric  Power  Co.  (from  1932  to  1938) 
was  55  percent. 

These  reductions  in  rates  were  accompanied  by  huge  increases  in  use  by 
the  companies'  customers.  Between  1932  and  1939  average  use  of  the  Alabama 
Power  Co.  and  Georgia  Power  Co.  increased  77  percent  and  80  percent,  respec- 
tively, compared  with  a  49-percent  increase  for  the  Nation.  The  Tennessee 
Electric  Power  Co.  reported  an  increase  of  147  percent  between  1932  and  1938. 
The  effect  of  the  companies'  lowered  rates  upon  consumption  of  electricity  is 
clearly  shown  by  the  following  table : 

Comparative  data  on  average  residential  consumption  and  date 


Average  kilowatt-hour  per  customer: 

Alabama  Power  Co 

Georgia  Power  Co 

Tennessee  Electric  Power  Co 

United  States 

Average  rate  per  kilowatt-hour: 

Alabama  Power  Co 

Georgia  Power  Co 

Tennessee  Electric  Power  Co.__ 
United  States - 


532 
543 

Cents 
5.05 
5.77 
6.44 
6.00 


765 
766 
576 
578 

Cents 
4.88 
5.42 
6.20 
5.74 


798 
803 
591 
597 

Cents 
4.79 
5.29 
6.13 
5.57 


Cents 
4.62 
5.16 
5.77 
5.49 


871 
885 
774 
624 

Cents 
3.84 
4.00 
4.13 
5.30 


672 

Cents 
3.54 
3.63 
3.63 
4.99 


1,176 
727 

Cents 
3.20 
3.37 
3.13 
4.65 


1,289 

1,313 

1,353 

793 

Cents 
2.97 
3.04 
2.86 
4.39 


1,399 
1,461 

845 

Cents 
2.85 
2.93 
2.75 
4.21 


Cents 
2.76 

2.84 


Note.— Figures  for  the  Tennessee  Electric  Power  Co.,  include  farm  and  rural  customers;  figures  for  the 
United  States  and  for  the  other  companies  represent  urban  residential  service. 


It  is  an  interesting  fact  that  this  combination  of  lowered  rates  and  increased 
consumption  resulted  in  greater  earnings  to  the  companies  concerned. 

A  comparison  of  income  statements  for  the  Commonwealth  &  Southern  Cor- 
poration and  its  principal  southern  subsidiaries,  reveals  that  during  the  year 
ended  December  31,  1939,  gross  earnings  were  substantially  in  excess  of  those 
reported  for  the  same  period  in  1932.  Gross  earnings  for  the  Commonwealth 
&  Southern  Corporation  itself  were  23  percent  higher  for  1939  than  1932;  for 
the  Alabama  Power  Co.,   42  percent  higher;   for   the  Georgia  Power  Co.,  40 


3818 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


percent  higher;  for  the  Mississippi  Power  Co.,  23  percent  Jiigher ;  and  for  the 
Tennessee  Electric  Power  Co.,  43  percent  higher,  (in  1938). 

For  all  of  the  subsidiary  companies,  operating  expenses,  maintenance,  and 
taxes  during  the  last  calendar  year  of  operation  have  exceeded  by  large  amounts 
the  .same  expenses  for  1932.  These  increases  ranged  from  81  percent  for  the 
Tennessee  Electric  Power  Co.  in  1938  to  16  percent  for  the  Mississippi  Power 
Co  in  1939  Even  more  sustantial  increases  are  noted  in  the  retirement  reserve 
allowance  For  the  Commonwealth  &  Southern  Corporation,  the  provision  for  re- 
tirement increased  70.5  percent  between  1932  and  1939.  The  percentage  increase 
for  the  Alabama  Power  Co.  was  179.1  percent ;  for  the  Georgia  Power  Co.,  145.5 
percent;  and  for  the  Mississippi  Power  Co.,  282.5  percent.  Between  1932  and 
1938,  the  retirement  provision  for  the  Tennessee  Electric  Power  Co.  remained 
unchanged  from  year  to  year. 

In  spite  of  these  enormous  increases  in  operating  expenses,  all  of  the  com- 
panies except  the  Georgia  Power  Co.  have  shown  increases  in  net  income  over 
1932  The  net  income  for  the  Commonwealth  &  Southern  Corporation  for  1939, 
which  did  not  include  any  income  from  the  Tennessee  Electric  Power  Co.,  was 
1.3  percent  higher  than  the  1932  figure.  Other  companies  showed  the  follow- 
ing percentage  increases  in  net  income.  Alabama  Power  Co.,  19.2  percent ; 
Mississippi  Power  Co.,  156  percent ;  and  Tennessee  Electric  Power  Co.,  15.6  per- 
cent (increase  in  1938  over  1932).  The  Georgia  Power  Co.'s  net  income  in  1939 
was  $788,429  lower  than  in  1932.  This  13.7-percent  reduction  in  net  income 
was  due  in  large  part  to  an  increase  of  $1,920,000  in  the  provision  for  retirement. 
The  net  income  of  all  of  these  companies  dropped  to  1932-39  lows  in  1934,  and 
the  percentage  increases  between  the  latter  year  and  1939  are  therefore  even 
greater  than  those  between  1932  and  1939. 

The  1932-39  figures  are  summarized  in  the  following  table : 

Condensed  comparative  income  statements  Commonwealth  and  Southern  Cor- 
poration and  principal  southern  subsidiaries 


Commonwealth   &   Southern   Cor 
poration: 

1932 

1939 

Percent  increase 

Alabama  Power  Co.: 

1932 

1939 

Percent  increase 

Georgia  Power  Co.: 

1932 

1939 

Percent  increase 

Mississippi  Power  Co.: 

1932 

1939 

Percent  increase 

Tennessee  Electric  Power  Co.: 

1932 

1938 

Percent  increase 


Gross 
earnings 


513,921 

868. 041 

23.0 


102,  809 

41.8 

416, 127 

451,  738 

40.3 

996,  321 

671,961 

22.6 

743, 675 

.  734,  440 

42.5 


Operating 

expenses, 
mainte- 
nance, and 
taxes 


,  879,  533 

,  509,  413 

43.6 

,  563,  750 

,  513,  270 

60.2 

, 580, 925 

,  608,  892 

73.4 

,965,351 

,  285,  708 

16.3 

,  464, 616 

,911,258 

81.4 


Retire- 
ment 


$9,  538,  719 

$16,  260,  510 

70.5 

$936, 000 

$2. 612,  280 

179.1 

$1, 320, 000 

$3,  240, 000 

145.5 

$73,  200 

$280, 000 

282.5 

$1,  260,  000 

$1,  260, 000 

0 


Fixed 

charges 


$39,  852, 670 

$36, 684, 482 

(8.0) 

$4,  628, 306 

$4, 858,  285 

5.0 

$5,  742,  556 

.$6,  618,  693 

15.3 

$756, 268 

$590, 426 

(21.9) 

$2,  648,  810 

.$2,  823,  981 

6.6 


Net  in- 
come 


$13,  242, 998 

$13, 413,  636 

1.3 

.$3, 455,  784 

$4,118,973 

19.2 

$5,  772,  646 

.$4, 984, 154 

(13.  7) 

.$201,  502 

$515,  828 

156.0 

$2, 370,  248 

$2,  739,  201 

15.6 


$4,  247, 693 

$4,416,051 

4.0 

$1,114,517 

$1,  776, 835 

59.4 

$2, 326,  279 

$2, 033, 804 

(12.  6) 

$71, 984 

$262,  766 

265.0 

$819, 366 

$1, 188.  335 

45.0 


RUE  \L  ELECTRIFICATION 

The  increased  consumption  of  electricity  during  recent  years  in  the  valley  area 
as  a  whole  has  been  accompanied  by  greater  use  on  the  farms. 

Since  December  31,  1932,  the  number  of  farms  receiving  electric  service  in  the 
7  valley  States — Alabama,  Georgia,  Kentucky,  Mississippi,  North  Carolina, 
Tennessee,  and  Virginia — has  increased  from  60.147  to  254,800  as  of  December  31, 


"The  reported  earnings  of  the  Commonwealth  &  Southern  Corporation  during  19.39  do 
not  include  any  income  derived  from  the  Tennessee  Electric  Power  Co.,  although  the  latter 
company  was  operated  until  August  15,  1039. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3819 

1939.  This  represents  an  increase  of  approximately  324  percent,  which  compares 
with  an  increase  of  152  percent  for  the  entire  Nation  during  the  same  period. 
In  the  valley  States,  the  greatest  growth  in  electrified  farms  occurred  during  the 
year  1939  when  approximately  90,000  farms  received  electric  service  for  the  first 
time ;  this  represented  an  increase  of  55  percent  over  the  previous  year.  For  the 
same  period,  electrified  farms  in  the  United  States  increased  only  27  percent 
over  the  1938  figure. 

Important  factors  in  this  rural  development  in  the  valley  area  have  been  the 
employment  of  the  electric  cooperative  as  the  agency  for  electricity  distribution, 
the  development  of  low-cost  rural  lines,  and  the  financing  of  projects  by  the  Rural 
Electrification  Administration.  To  date,  this  agency  has  loaned  $10,4S6,8S4  to 
Tennessee  Valley  Authority  distributors,  while  the  Authority  has  loaned  .$4,400,- 
512.  Most  of  this  money  has  been  used  for  the  construction  of  new  rural  lines, 
although  a  substantial  part  was  used  to  finance  the  acquisition  of  utility-company 
properties. 

The  growth  of  rural  electrification  is  providing  opportunities  for  improved 
agricultural  practices,  resulting  in  increased  farm  income.  The  Authority  and 
the  land-grant  colleges  are  cooperating  in  the  development  of  new  types  of  low- 
cost  electrical  equipment  which  can  be  of  assistance  to  farmers  in  this  respect. 
Through  arrangements  with  private  industry,  such  equipment,  when  developed,  is 
manufactured  and  placed  on  the  market.  The  following  are  some  examples  of 
equipment  which  already  has  been  developed : 

Pig  brooders :  Costing  less  than  $3  for  materials. 

Chick  brooders :  Costing  less  than  $15  for  materials  for  a  200-chick  capacity 
brooder.  Such  a  brooder  provides  an  economical  method  for  raising  home  flocks 
for  egg  production  and  broilers  for  retail  sale. 

Irrigation  of  home  gardens :  The  domestic  electric  water  system  can  be  also 
used  to  irrigate  the  home  garden,  thus  insuring  against  poor  gardens  during  dry- 
weather  periods.  The  home  garden  is  valued  at  $75  per  year  to  a  rural  family, 
and  irrigation  often  means  the  difference  between  a  poor  crop  and  a  full  yield. 

Irrigation  of  truck  crops  for  sale :  Irrigation  of  truck  crops  has  been  deter- 
mined to  be  practical  in  many  sections  of  the  Tennessee  Valley.  During  the  last 
3  years  in  excess  of  500  acres  have  been  put  under  irrigation.  The  increased 
yield  and  corresponding  higher  income  per  acre  have  been  reported  to  repay  the 
investment  cost  in  1  or  2  years. 

Sweetpotato  curing:  The  use  of  electric  heat  in  curing  and  storing  sweetpota- 
toes  results  in  a  more  uniform,  high-quality  produce  that  has  commanded  premium 
prices  on  local  markets.  A  net  increase  of  5  to  10  percent  of  marketable  potatoes 
( over  the  number  secured  through  the  operation  of  conventional  stove-heated 
curing  houses)  has  been  reported,  which  will  repay  the  installation  cost  in  the 
first  year  of  operation. 

Hay  curing :  A  new  method  of  curing  hay  by  the  use  of  an  electric  blower  has 
been  developed  that  will  enable  hay  to  be  stored  in  the  barn  on  the  same  day  it  is 
cut.  This  method  removes  a  big  barrier  in  the  production  of  high-quality  hay  in  a 
region  that  has  been  importing  about  500,000  tons  annually. 

APPLIANCE    SALKS 

The  low  electricity  rates  put  into  elTect  in  the  valley  area  have  stimulated  not 
only  the  electricity  business  itself,  but  also  the  industries  which  are  devoted  to 
the  manufacture  of  electrical  appliances. 

In  the  12  months  ending  with  June  1940,  residential  appliance  sales  in  the 
Tennessee  Valley  Authority  area  totaled  ^$12,573,000,  an  average  of  $46  per  cus- 
tomer. This  total  resulted  from  the  sale  of  35,400  electric  refrigerators,  12,600 
electric  ranges,  4,700  electric  water  heaters,  1,300  electric  water  pumps,  14,600 
electric  washers,  and  188,400  unclassified  appliances.  On  the  basis  of  available 
statistics,  it  is  estimated  that  if  an  average  of  $46  prevailed  throughout  the 
Nation,  total  appliance  sales  would  be  increased  by  over  $330,000,000  annually. 
As  of  September  1,  1940,  69  percent  of  the  residential  customers  served  by  Ten- 
nessee Valley  Authority  distributors  had  electric  refrigerators,  23  percent  had 
electric  ranges,  and  8  percent  had  electric  water  heaters. 

Practically  all  appliance  sales  in  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  territory  are 
made  by  independent  appliance  dealers.    The  Authority's  wholesale  distributors. 


3g20  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

and  to  a  certain  extent  the  Authority  itself,  cooperate  closely  with  these  dealers 
in  sales  campaigns  and  other  sales  promotional  activity.  The  statistics  given 
above  are  based  on  monthly  reports  which  these  dealers  make  to  the  Authority. 
The  effects  of  the  Authority's  power  program  on  the  valley  area  in  connection 
with  the  problem  in  which  the  committee  is  interested  are  likely  to  be  far 
reaching.  Increases  in  the  use  of  electricity,  increases  in  sales  of  electricity, 
increases  in  the  real  income  and  in  the  buying  power  of  farmers — all  of  these 
mean  stimulation  of  many  fields  of  private  industry,  a  rising  standard  of  living, 
and  widened  economic  opportunities  for  the  iDeople  of  the  region.  They  also 
mean,  by  the  same  token,  a  lessening  of  the  impulse  tow^ard  migration. 

5.  Activities  Relating  to  Water  Control  in  the  Interests  of  Flood  Control, 
Navigation,  and  Recreation 

Tennessee  Valley  Authority's  dams  are  multipurpose  structures  constructed 
jointly  in  the  primary  interests  of  navigation  and  flood  control,  with  the  produc- 
tion of  power  as  an  incident  thereto.  The  Authority's  water-control  program  is 
another  means  of  widening  economic  opportunity  in  the  region  which  it  serves. 

FLOOD  CONTROL 

The  Tennessee  River  has  been  one  of  the  principal  contributors  to  floodwaters 
on  the  Ohio  and  Mississippi  Rivers.  Money  losses  from  floods  on  these  streams, 
as  well  as  those  which  have  occurred  in  the  past  on  the  Tennessee  River  itself, 
have  been  enormous.  A  lai-ge  portion  of  these  losses  are  borne  by  industry  and 
commerce  whose  properties  may  be  destroyed  or  forced  temporarily  to  shut 
down  during  flood  periods.  Economic  opportunities  are  widened,  therefore,  when 
private  enterprise  is  freed  from  the  burden  of  such  losses. 

The  effect  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority's  system  of  dams  was  partially 
demonstrated  during  the  winter  of  1936  and  the  early  part  of  1937,  when  a 
major  flood  occurred  on  the  Ohio  and  Tennessee  Rivers.  At  that  time,  Norris 
Dam  had  been  completed.  This  one  dam  held  back  suflicient  waiter  to  lower  the 
flood  crest  during  the  high-water  stage  by  4  feet  at  Chattanooga  and  by  nearly 
half  a  foot  at  Cairo,  111.  These  G  inches  were  critical  for  Cairo  at  the  time,  since 
the  Ohio  had  risen  above  its  flood  wall  and  the  city  was  protected  only  by  an 
emergency  mud  box  built  on  top  of  the  levee.  Norris  is,  of  course,  only  1  of  11 
dams  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  system  which  have  been  built  or  are  in 
process  of  construction. 

NAVIGATION 

When  the  Authority's  system  of  dams  is  completed,  the  Tennessee  River  will 
be  navigable  from  Knoxville  to  its  mouth,  a  distance  of  650  miles.  The  water 
transportation  which  will  then  be  available  is  likely  to  stimulate  greatly  the 
entire  economy  of  the  region. 

The  most  obvious  benefit  of  the  improved  waterway  is  that  existing  traffic 
adaptable  to  barge  transportation  can  be  moved  by  water  at  savings  of  20  percent 
or  more.  This  benefit  will  accrue  not  only  to  river  ports  but  to  a  wide  con- 
tiguous territory  because  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  requires  over- 
land common  carriers  and  barge  operators  to  join  in  through  water-and-overland 
rates  on  a  level  approaching  20  percent  below  existing  all-rail  through  rates. 
Geographical  limitatfons  attached  to  this  rule  exclude  joint  rates  over  routes 
which  would  be  excessively  circuitous,  but  the  area  in  which  the  lower  rates 
would  apply  on  trade  between  the  Tennessee  Valley  and  the  Middle  West  extends 
as  far  back  from  the  Tennessee  River  as  Birmingham,  Ala. ;  Macon,  Ga. ; 
Asheville,  N.  C,  and  beyond. 

While  the  inland  waterway  system  is  not  designed  primarily  to  influence  the 
level  of  rates  on  existing  means  of  freight  transportation,  the  fact  that  lower- 
cost  substitute  transportation  exists  generally  does  result  in  a  lowering  of  rates 
to  meet  the  competition.  The  transportation  advantage  of  a  city  like  New  York, 
for  example,  lies  not  only  in  the  ability  to  ship  by  water,  but  in  the  existence  of 
railway  rates  set  low  enough  to  compete  with  water  rates.  The  fact  that  the 
Pacific  coast  can  be  reached  by  water  shipment  through  the  Panama  Canal  is 
responsible  for  New  York's  ability  to  reach  the  Pacific  coast  more  cheaply  by 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3821 

rail  than  a  number  of  points  on  tlie  railroad  between  New  York  and  the  Pacific 
coast  can.  As  such  an  arrangement  works  to  the  commercial  advantage  of  a 
city  like  New  York,  so  the  improved  waterway  will  promote  a  wider  develop- 
ment of  industry  and  trade  in  the  upper  Southeast. 

The  Authority  is  now  cooperating  with  the  various  communities  along  the 
river  in  the  formulation  of  their  plans  to  provide  for  a  unified  terminal  system 
which  will  be  the  connecting  link  between  water  and  land  carriers.  It  is 
significant  that  plans  for  these  terminals  contemplate  a  distribution  of  waterway 
benefits  to  as  wide  an  area  as  may  be  practicable  and  will,  it  is  hoped,  be 
operated  under  one  management  for  the  entire  valley  region.  The  plan  is 
unique  in  that  the  various  commvmities  will  be  cooperating  instead  of  competing 
for  traflac,  and  the  rates  at  each  port  will  be  uniform. 

Perhaps  even  more  important  than  the  savings  on  existing  commerce,  how- 
ever, are  the  opportunities  of  increased  commerce  which  any  reduction  of  trans- 
portation costs  will  bring  about.  In  addition  to  the  national  benefit  in  the 
form  of  a  greater  aggregate  production,  cheaper  transportation  widens  the 
market  for  the  community  to  which  it  is  extended.  Up  to  a  certain  distance 
from  his  factory,  for  example,  an  Alabama  stove  manufacturer  possesses  the 
advantage  of  lower  transportation  costs  over  his  competitors;  up  to  this  point 
his  competitor  must  pay  or  absorb  the  excess  of  his  transjwrtation  costs  over 
the  Alabama  manufacturer's  or  else  lose  the  business.  Beyond  the  distance  at 
which  the  rate  from  Alabama  and  the  competing  factory  are  equal,  the  com- 
petitive situation  is  reversed;  that  is,  the  Alabama  producer  must  absorb  pro- 
gressively larger  amounts  of  excess  transportation  charges  until  he  reaches  a 
point  beyond  which  the  necessai-y  absorption  would  swallow  his  entire  profit. 
To  go  still  further  would  be  to  incur  a  direct  loss. 

Because  of  the  high  existing  rates  on  manufactured  goods  in  the  Southeast, 
areas  in  which  the  region's  enterprises  have  market  equality  or  advantages  are 
relatively  much  more  narrow  than  are  the  markets  for  enterprises  located  in 
low-rate  territory.  Any  lowering  of  the  Southeast's  cost  of  transportation,  such 
as  results  from 'the  creation  of  the  barge  waterway,  will  vriden  the  territory 
in  which  the  southern  producer  can  do  business  pofitably. 

Although  the  Tennessee  River  can  reach  its  full  usefulness  to  consumers  and 
farmers  only  when  the  dams  are  completed  and  a  system  of  terminals  has  been 
constructed,  transportation  savings  for  southeastern  businesses  and  industries 
are  already  coming  into  being.  Among  movements  in  existence  and  growing 
are  gasoline  from  Illinois  to  Tennessee  River  points  as  far  up  as  Chattanooga ; 
grain  from  Kansas  City  and  Minneapolis  to  Decatur,  Guntersville,  and  Chat- 
tanooga ;  pig  iron  from  Birmingham  by  rail  to  Decatur  and  Sheffield  and  thence 
by  barge  to  Chicago.  A  large  flour  mill  in  Chattanooga,  after  trying  contract 
barge  service  from  the  Middle  Western  Grain  Belt,  invested  in  and  is  profitably 
operating  its  own  towboat  and  barges;  another  company  has  almost  completed 
a  mill  at  Decatur  to  take  advantage  of  cheap  barged  grain.  A  large  aluminum 
plant  to  employ  1,200  men  is  under  construction  at  Sheffield,  Ala.,  a  river  port. 
The  flour  and  the  aluminum  plants  will  be  entirely  new  industries  in  the 
region.  Even  at  this  early  stage,  the  waterway  has  resulted  in  an  indirect 
saving,  also,  in  the  form  of  lowered  railway  rates  on  gasoline  from  Louisiana 
refineries  to  Tennessee  River  points. 

From  the  foregoing,  it  seems  clear  that  improvement  of  the  Tennessee  River 
for  modern  barge  navigation  is  a  force  which  will  widen  economic  opportunity 
in  the  Southeast.  It  will,  therefore,  help  to  eliminate  the  present  necessity  of 
migrating  out  of  the  region  in  search  of  .opportunity. 

RECRE^VTIONAL    DEVELOPMENT 

In  its  contribution  to  recreation  planning,  the  Authority  is  dealing  with  a 
resource  which  is  of  primary  importance  in  the  Tennessee  Valley.  Early  in 
its  program,  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  took  inventory  of  the  recreation 
possibilities  of  the  valley.  It  found  a  lack  of  public  recreation  areas,  and  a 
lack  of  agencies  for  establishing  them.  On  the  other  hand,  it  found  a  wealth  of 
potential  areas  and  an  opportunity  to  increase  incomes  throughout  the  region 
by  recreation  development. 

An  important  factor  in  the  establishment  of  a  recreation  area  was  supplied 
by  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  in  its  construction  of  a   series  of  multi- 


3822 


INTEKSTATE  MIGRATION 


purpose  dams.  Ten  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  lakes,  when  completed,  will 
have  a  water  surface  of  over  half  a  million  acres,  and  will  be  surrounded  by  a 
publicly  owned  shore  line  of  6,000  miles.  The  lakes  will  range  in  length  from 
15  to  185  miles,  in  area  from  5,800  to  256,000  acres,  and  in  altitude  from  350 
to  1,500  feet  above  mean  sea  level.  They  are  located  in  the  midst  of  a  low- 
income  area,  providing  easy  access  to  recreation  facilities  for  people  who 
otherwise  would  be  entirely  without  them,  and  providing  these  people  with  an 
entirely  new  source  of  income  and  opportunity  for  employment. 

Tangible  economic  benefits  from  recreation  developments  are  difficult  to 
measure.  The  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  report  on  recreation  development 
in  the  Tennessee  Valley  includes  limited  statistics  on  tourist  income,  employ- 
ment, markets  for  recreation  business,  and  taxable  improvement.  The  report 
goes  on  to  point  out  that — 

"Resources  for  recreation  are  usually  most  plentiful  where  other  economic 
resources  are  most  meager,  and  their  development  brings  widely  distributed 
benefits,  reaching  from  city,  town,  and  farm  into  the  most  remote  mountain 
cove.  It  takes  no  capital  to  launch  the  business  of  selling  fishworms  nor  is  an 
expensive  building  program  required  to  add  a  profitable  line  of  fishing  tackle 
at  the  village  store.  Well-financed  corporations  are  needed  to  build  hotels 
and  to  operate  elaborate  tours,  but  tliis  does  not  keep  the  little  man  from 
getting  his  share  of  the  recreation  business  through  some  other  channel.  Every 
visitor  to  a  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  dam,  every  patron  of  recreation  facil- 
ities on  a  reservoir,  and  every  tourist  who  comes  to  see  fall  color  in  the 
mountains  or  to  spend  his  vacation  at  an  invigorating  altitude  is  a  purchaser 
of  recreation  goods  and  services.  He  needs  food  and  lodging,  fuel  and  trans- 
portation, and  sporting  goods  and  clothing,  and  he  may  desire  guide  service  for 
himself  or  mountain  handicraft  for  those  back  home." 

Any  program  of  recreation  development  retards  migration  from  a  region 
to  the  extent  that  the  development  of  a  new  material  resource  increases  the 
social  and  economic  opportunities  within  the  region.  To  some  extent,  such 
opportunities  will  be  increased  by  recreation  development  in  the  Tennessee 
Valley. 

6.  EfEects  of  the  Authority's  Program  on  Particular  Groups 

The  Authority's  program  has  affected  two  particular  groups  of  persons,  ref- 
erence to  which  may  be  of  interest  in  connection  with  the  migration  problem. 
These  are  (1)  workmen  and  others  employed  by  the  Authority  or  directly 
affected  by  its  personnel  policies,  and  (2)  persons  displaced  from  their  lands 
as  a  result  of  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  reservoir  projects. 

EFFECTS  OF  TENNESSEE  VALLEY  AUTHORITY  PERSONNEL  POLICIES 

The  recruitment  of  trades  and  labor  personnel  in  the  Authority  is  restricted 
in.sofar  as  possible  to  areas  within  reasonable  distance  of  the  projects  on 
which  the  men  are  to  work.  One  reason  for  the  adoption  of  this  policy  waS  to 
avoid  migration  to  the  Tennessee  Valley  area  of  great  numbers  of  persons 
because  of  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  construction  work  which,  at  best,  is 
temporary.  A  policy  which  encouraged  widespread  influx  into  the  Valley  of 
persons  seeking  work  would  have  created  the  problem  of  large  numbers  of 
citizens  left  stranded  at  the  end  of  construction,  and  faced  then  with  the  neces- 
sity of  migrating  elsewhere  or  settling  down  to  substandard  living  because  of 
excess  of  labor  supply  over  demand.  The  geographic  restriction  on  employment 
has  been  waived  at  intervals  for  persons  in  skilled  trades  when  the  available 
supply  in  the  valley  area  became  insufficient  to  meet  clear  needs. 

Early  in  the  operation  of  the  Authority,  the  principle  of  setting  the  same  rate 
of  pay  for  similar  work  throughout  the  operations  of  the  Authority  was  estab- 
lished. This  principle  is  also  applied  to  occupations  in  the  trades  and  labor 
groups  whose  rates  are  determined  on  the  basis  of  prevailing  rates  of  pay,  as 
required  by  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  Act,  and  through  the  processes  of 
collective  bargaining.  The  effect  of  such  a  policy  has  been  to  help  stabilize  wage 
standards  throughout  the  Valley  area.  The  favorable  reaction  of  organized 
labor  to  the  uniform  wage  schedule  on  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  work  indi- 
cates  that   the  schedule   has   affected   economic   conditions   in   the   area.     The 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3823 

Authority's  uniform  schedule  has  tended  to  raise  rates  of  low  wage  spots  in 
the  Valley  to  mo-re  nearly  conform  to  prevailing  rates  of  established  labor 
centers. 

In  addition  to  the  establishment  of  a  uniform  wage  schedule  with  its  attendant 
effects  upon  the  economic  level  of  the  valley  area,  the  personnel  policies  of  the 
Authority  have  been  designed  to  increase  the  skill  of  residents  of  the  area, 
thereby  diminishing  the  need  for  inducing  migration  from  other  areas  into  an 
area  where  a  plentiful  labor  supply  already  exists.  A  craft  apprenticeship 
system  has  been  in  operation  on  the  Authority's  construction  projects  since 
1937.  The  system  was  jointly  inaugurated  by  labor  and  management,  and  has 
the  approval  of  the  Federal  Apprenticeship  Committee  and  the  international 
craft  organizations  concerned.  The  apprenticeships  provide  for  approximately 
4  years  of  job  rotation  and  related  class  work.  Upon  completion  of  this  period, 
the  apprentice  is  promoted  to  journeymanship,  fully  capable  of  performing  tlie 
functions  of  his  craft.  To  date,  169  apprentices  in  S  different  crafts  have  com- 
pleted their  apprenticeships  with  the  Authority  and  are  working  as  journeymen 
in  this  area,  although  not  all  of  these  apprentice  graduates  are  employed  by  the 
Authority.  There  are  now  171  apprentices  in  the  process  of  training.  In  addi- 
tion, more  than  30,000  different  workers  have  had  at  one  time  or  another  a 
substantial  period  of  construction  employment  with  the  Authority,  during  which 
time  they  had  the  advantage  of  training  and  supervision  designed  to  improve 
skills  and  craftsmanship.  The  effect  of  this  reservoir  of  improved  skill  and 
experience  is  difficult  to  measure,  but  its  value  is  apparent  as  national-defense 
needs  increase  the  demand  for  competent  trained  laboi^ 

Other  training  programs  have  been  developed  with  the  same  objective  of 
increasing  the  available  reservoir  of  skill  in  the  area.  These  programs  include 
training  for  more  versatile  journeymen,  and  training  for  rodmen,  construction 
inspectors,  and  engineering  draftsmen.  Through  the  medium  of  training,  the 
Authority' has  developed  skilled  employees  who  can  economically  execute  the 
work  of  "the  Authority  and  who,  as  a  result  of  the  development  of  these  new 
skills  through  training,  are  capable  of  continuing  to  contribute  to  the  valley 
area  when  the  construction  work  of  the  Authority  has  been  completed. 

Insofar  as  it  is  administratively  feasible,  the  Authority  has  conducted  its 
training  program  through  existing  local  agencies.  For  example,  the  voca- 
tional and  technical  high  schools  in  the  area  have  shown  marked  willingness 
to  cooperate  in  conducting  related  training  in  connection  with  apprentice  pro- 
grams. They  have  gone  further  to  establish  additional  training  opportunities 
in  terms  of  "the  needs  of  organizations  other  than  the  Tennessee  Valley.  Au- 
thority. 

As  a  result  of  these  developments,  the  area  is  becoming  better  able  to  develop 
from  among  its  own  people  the  skills  which  its  economy  requires. 

EFFECTS  OF  TENNESSEE  VAIXEY  AUTHORITY  RESERVOIR  PROJECTS  ON  PERSONS  RESIDING 
IN    FLOODED   AREAS 

Soon  after  the  Authority  was  created,  it  became  apparent  that  large  num- 
bers of  people  would  be  displaced  as  a  result  of  dam  and  reservoir  construction. 
Accordingly,  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  Act  was  amended  to  empower  the 
Authority  to  cooperate  in  the  readjustment  of  displaced  persons  and  families. 

Consistent  with  the  purposes  of  the  act,  a  program  of  population  readjust- 
ment has  been  planned  and  executed  in  each  reservoir  area.  Readjustment 
is  considered  to  be  a  long-time  process  in  which  the  families  affected,  the  local 
communities,  and  their  agencies  have  an  interest  and  a  responsibility.  Many 
of  the  problems  arising  in  the  readjustment  of  families  and  communities 
are  closely  related  to  other  local  conditions  already  requiring  the  attention 
of  existing  agencies ;  therefore,  it  was  considered  expedient  not  to  duplicate  the 
programs  of  any  of  these  agencies,  but  rather  to  secure  their  interest  and  active 
cooperation  in  the  program  of  readjutment  whereby  the  social  environment 
and  economic  opportunity  of  the  families  will  be  at  least  as  desirable  as  those 
available  to  them  prior  to  their  removal  from  land  purchased  by  the  Authority. 

Because  a  majority  of  the  displaced  families  (63  percent  of  those  relocated 
to  date)  are  farm  families,  and  most  of  the  remainder  indirectly  depend  upon 
agriculture,  contractual  agreements  have  been  entered  into  with  the  Agri- 
cultural Extension  Services  of  the  valley  States  for  the  purpose  of  assisting 


3824 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


in  fhe  relocation  and  the  readjustment  of  farm  families  displaced  by  the  con- 
sfrnction  of  dams  in  their  respective  States.  Many  other  Government  and 
nrivite  organizations  and  groups  aid  in  the  formulation  and  execution  of  plans 
for  readjustment  which  is  expected  to  continue  after  the  construction  of  the 
dams  is  completed  and  the  reservoirs  flooded. 

To  date  over  6,000  families,  or  approximately  26,000  persons,  have  moved 
from  behind  the  6  dams  already  completed  in  the  valley,  and  approximately 
6  000  additional  families  will  move  from  lands  in  the  process  of  acquisition 
ill  connection  with  dams  now  under  construction. 

The  following  table  gives  the  number  of  families  removed  from  each  area, 
classified  according  to  tenure : 


Norris 

Wheelor. 

Pickwick 

Quntersville.. 
Chickamauga. 
Hiwassee 

Total. -- 


Families  removed 


2,899 
842 
506 

1,182 
903 
261 


2,1 


640 
185 


Because  the  areas  flooded  are  characterized  by  a  stable  rural  population, 
most  of  the  families  have  relocated  on  farms  or  in  communities  nearby.  Only 
'>4  percent  of  the  families  relocated  to  date  have  left  the  counties  in  which 
they  previously  resided,  and  only  5  percent  have  left  their  States.  Many  of 
the  farmers,  especially  in  Alabama,  had  been  accustomed  to  one-crop  farming 
on  the  river  bottoms.  Assistance  has  been  available  to  them  through  the 
extension  services  in  their  efforts  to  readjust  to  a  somewhat  different  agri- 
cultural economy.  Many  more  farmers  than  ever  before  throughout  the  valley 
are  now  participating  in  the  various  Government  soil-improvement  and  di- 
versified agricultural  programs.  Farm  and  home  ownership  among  displaced 
families  has  increased  to  son>e  extent  in  each  of  the  reservoir  areas. 

Thus,  while  the  displacement  of  families  as  a  result  of  reservoir  develop- 
ments has  created  a  number  of  problems,  these  have  been  solved  without  any 
maladjustment  resulting  from  the  displacement.  Moreover,  the  vast  majority 
of  displaced  families  have  been  absorbed  within  the  region  and  have  not 
migrated  to  other  areas. 

III.  Conclusion — Effects  of  Regional  Integration  of  Activities  Directed  To 
Widening  Economic  Opportunities  on  the  Migrant  Problem 


The  activities  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  outlined  above  do  not, 
for  the  most  part,  represent  the  exercise  of  new  governmental  functions.  The 
Federal  Government  has  over  a  period  of  many  years  constructed  waterways, 
sold  electric  power,  controlled  floods,  aided  the  farmer,  encouraged  industrial 
growth,  and  engaged  in  virtually  all  of  the  other  activities  which,  taken  together, 
form  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority's  program. 

The  Authority  and  its  program  are  a  new  kind  of  governmental  undertaking, 
however,  in  that  they  represent  a  pioneer  effort  to  integrate  and  correlate 
governmental  activity  in  the  interests  of  promoting  a  balanced  economic 
development  in  an  entire  region. 

As  regards  the  problem  under  investigation  by  the  committee,  Tennessee 
Valley  Authority's  importance  lies  in  its  effect  upon  the  widening  of  economic 
opportunity  in  a  region  which,  because  of  its  unbalanced  economic  development, 
has  contributed  heavily  to  the  stream  of  interstate  migration.  As  economic 
opportunities  expand  within  the  area  as  a  result  of  the  impact  of  a  regional 
program  of  coordinate  economic  development  enlisting  full  cooperation  of  the 
people  of  the  area    the  impetus  to  such  migration  will  steadily  decline. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3825 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  P.  FERRIS^Eesiimed 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  wonder  if  you  will  give  us  some  of  the  high 
lights  contained  in  your  statement  in  your  own  way. 

MIGRATION  FROM  TENNESSEE  VALLEY  REGION 

Mr.  Ferris.  As  my  testimony  proceeds  the  members  of  the  com- 
mittee w^ill  soon  discover  that  I  am  not  an  expert  on  the  subject  of 
migration.  It  is,  however,  a  fact  that  great  movements  of  popula- 
tion have  occurred  out  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  region  and  out  of  the 
Southeast  and  that  they  have  been  occurring  for  a  long  time.  Now, 
obviously,  these  migrations  were  not  due  to  chance  but  due  to  certain 
fundamental  problems  that  the  people  of  that  region  have  had  to 
face. 

In  order  to  make  the  things  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  is  do- 
ing really  effective  in  the  lives  of  the  people  of  that  area,  the  Author- 
ity was  inevitably  forced  to  inquire  into  what  these  fundamental 
problems  were  that  were  causing  migrations  and  to  try  to  adjust 
what  we  were  doing  so  it  would  contribute  toward  their  solution. 

These  activities  of  the  Authority  have  not  been  aimed  directly  at 
attempting  to  influence  migrations  one  way  or  another,  but  they 
have  no  doubt  had  considerable  influence  on  migration,  and  in  my 
personal  opinion  they  will  have  an  increasing  influence  as  time 
goes  on. 

In  giving  you  the  high  lights  of  this  assembly  of  material  con- 
cerning the  possible  effects  of  the  Authority's  program  on  migration, 
I  would  like  to  start  with  a  very  brief  statement  that  represents  my 
own  idea  of  the  dominant  cause,  an  idea,  I  think,  in  which  most  of 
the  members  of  our  staff  concur — that  the  motive  of  interstate  migra- 
tions today,  as  in  the  past,  is  the  search  for  greater  economic  oppor- 
tunities. 

In  the  past,  these  migrations  were  primarily  toward  the  undevel- 
oped western  lands  and  hence  healthy  and  necessary  to  the  national 
development  and  a  rising  standard  of  living  in  the  country. 

But  since  this  western  frontier  has  ceased  to  exist,  since  Ameri- 
cans struck  the  Pacific  Ocean  and  had  to  turn  back,  migration  has 
consisted  primarily  of  people  who  have  to  go  out  and  compete  with 
other  people  in  the  areas  to  which  they  go.  This  leads  us  back  to 
the  rather  obvious  conclusion  that  the  core  of  the  problem  is  finding 
economic  opportunities  for  people. 

Mr.  Parsons.  After  all,  it  is  on  the  same  principle  of  seeking  eco- 
nomic opportunities  which  was  the  reason  our  forefathers  went  West 
and  West  and  West  until  the  Pacific  Ocean  turned  them  back. 

Mr.  Ferris.  I  agree,  sir.  As  to  the  facts  concerning  the  migration 
from  the  Tennessee  Valley  region  I  merely  want  to  remind  you  of 
one  or  two  which  will  serve  to  show  you  that  it  is  a  point  of  origin 
of  migrations. 

That  region  has  a  high  birth  rate.  For  instance,  in  1930  there 
Avere  531  children  under  5  years  of  age  per  thousand  women  of  child- 
bearing  age  in  the  valley  States  as  against  391  in  the  country  as  a 
whole. 


3g26  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Now,  by  aiiotker  test  in  1930  these  7  valley  States  had  in  them 
about  950,000  people  who  had  been  born  elsewhere,  but  the  rest  of  the 
United  States  had  in  it  about  4,190,000  people  who  had  been  born  in 
these  7  States.  That  is,  for  every  new  i)erson  comino;  into  the  Ten- 
nessee Valley  States,  between  4  and  5  had  left  as  of  1939,  clearly  show- 
ing that  we  are  talking  about  a  region  from  which  people  go  in  large 
numbers. 

Most  of  that  drain  of  population  from  the  valley  was  toward  indus- 
trial cities  in  the  Midwest. 

Many  of  the  people  who  went  were  not  destitute,  but  they  were 
seeking  greater  economic  opportunity — better  jobs  and  more  mc  .m;^. 
Their  departure  has  placed  a  very  heavy  burden  on  those  who  have 
remained.  To  illustrate:  In  one  particular  county  in  the  hilly  eastern 
end  of  the  valley  you  will  find  the  customary  high  birth  rate  and  far 
more  young  people  up  to  the  age  of  22  than  in  the  United  States  as  a 
whole.  Then  they  begin  to  drop  off.  They  go  out  somewhere  else  to 
contribute  their  labor  and  make  a  living.  All  the  way  to  the  age  of 
52,  that  is  true — they  are  gone.  At  52  they  find  the  cities  are  through 
with  them  and  they  return.  From  then  on  this  county  has  to  support 
the  same  number  of  old  people  that  the  United  States  does  as  a  whole 
on  the  average. 

In  other  words,  one  of  the  effects  of  migration  from  a  region  such  as 
the  Southeast  is  that  people  are  away  when  they  are  producing,  but 
they  are  there  when  not  producing,  which  means  that  the  productive 
element  in  the  population  has  a  far  heavier  burden  to  carry  in  paying 
for  schools  and  libraries  and  medical  services  and  all  social  services. 

One  more  indication  of  the  problem :  In  1930  in  the  valley  States 
there  were  about  122  dependent  people  per  thousand  population.  There 
were  90  in  the  country  as  a  whole,  simply  nailing  down  that  same 
point. 

The  record  which  has  been  submitted  here  is,  as  Congressman  Spark- 
man  says,  voluminous.  I  do  not  think  it  would  be  constructive  even  to 
attempt  to  digest  the  data  in  it. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Ferris,  may  I  say  at  this  point,  and  I  should 
have  said  it  a  while  ago,  the  entire  statement  will  be  placed  in  the 
record  just  as  it  is  presented  here. 

CAUSES  or  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Ferris.  I  understood  that  would  be  done. 

Instead  of  attempting  merely  to  give  further  figures  about  the 
valley  and  the  reasons  that  it  is  a  source  of  migration,  it  would  seem 
to  me  perhaps  more  constructive  to  indicate  what  I  think  to  be  the 
underlying  causes. 

I  believe  the  valley  and  the  entire  Southeast  are,  being  raw-material 
regions,  suffering  the  same  disadvantages  as  raw-material  regions  all 
over  the  country  and  all  over  the  world  suffer. 

All  raw-material  regions  in  the  world,  according  to  my  observa- 
tions, are  characterized  by  the  population  receiving  a  comparatively 
small  return  for  what  they  do.  They  take  their  natural  resources. 
They  send  them  in  the  raw  state  to  the  markets  of  the  world.     They  sell 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3827 

them  at  low  prices — prices  in  competition  with  cheap  labor  from  every- 
where. When  the  score  is  in,  they  haven't  money  with  which  to  buy 
manufactured  goods. 

To  illustrate :  A  typical  timberland  owner  in  the  South  would  have 
to  sell  300  tons  of  pulpwood  to  get  enough  money  to  buy  one  cheap 
automobile. 

Xow,  forests  don't  last  forever  when  that  goes  on  for  three  or  four 
or  five  decades.  You  come  to  the  point  where  the  forests  are  mostly 
gone  and  then  the  people  haven't  any  further  way  of  earning  a  living. 

The  proof  of  this  situation,  of  course,  is  manifold.  However,  I 
would  like  to  call  attention  to  the  fact  that,  in  my  opinion,  many  of 
the  figures  on  low  income,  on  poor  housing  standards,  on  lack  of  health 
services,  and  so  forth,  do  not  represent  the  problems  themselves.  They 
represent  the  symptoms  of  the  problem.  The  pi'oblem  is  how  to  use 
better  the  resources  which  are  there. 

For  instance,  on  income,  taking  the  figures  of  the  National  Emer- 
gency Council's  report,  the  southeastern  States  enjoyed  in  1937  an 
average  income  of  $314:  per  capita,  I  believe,  against  about  $604  per 
capita  as  a  United  States  average. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  That  was  income? 

Mr.  FEnp.is.  Spendable  income,  yes;  for  the  Southeast. 

Mr.  OsMERS.  And  the  national  income  was  what  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  $604.  Xow  why  is  that  true?  The  raw-materials 
status  is  perfectly  illustrated  in  the  case  of  the  agricultural  situation 
where  we  have  impaired  soils — a  one-crop  system  that  tends  to  exhaust 
soils,  forests  that  are  largely  cut  off,  and  so  on. 

In  addition  to  these  fundamental  causes  we  have  a  system  of  freight 
rates  in  the  United  States  which  has  grown  up  around  the  dilferences 
between  the  economies  of  the  Southeast  as  a  raw-materials  region  and 
of  other  areas  which  are  industrialized  and  tend  to  perpetuate  the 
condition. 

These  conditions  were  not  brought  about  by  the  present  population 
in  the  Southeast  or  in  the  Tennessee  Valley  but  have  their  roots  far 
back  in  history. 

The  industrial  United  States  was  built  quite  largely  on  the  income 
which  cotton  brought  to  it  in  the  nineteenth  century.  When  we 
needed  hundreds  of  millions  of  dollars  to  build  railroads  and  factories 
and  cities,  where  did  we  get  them  ?  The  cotton  of  the  South  was  sold 
on  the  world  markets  and  gave  us  international  trade  balances  by 
which  we  were  able  to  industrialize  the  country  largely. 

On  the  other  hand,  the  people  in  the  South,  producing  cotton  largely, 
and  in  the  interior  regions  which  -.produced  other  staple  crops  like 
wheat,  tended  to  sell  all  of  these  commodities  very  cheaply  on  the  world 
market,  while  everything  they  had  to  buy — their  farm  tools,  their 
clothing,  industrial  goods  of' every  description — had  to  be  bought 
primarily  behind  tariff  walls. 

But  more  fundamental,  I  think,  is  the  fact  that  those  things  had  to 
be  purchased  from  industrial  populations  which  sold  their  brains 
and  skills  at  higher  prices. 

Let  me  illustrate :  If  you  sell  pig  iron,  you  get  $25  a  ton  for  it ;  if 
you  make  it  into  watch  springs,  you  get  $25,000  a  ton  for  it. 


260370— 41— pt.  9- 


ogog  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Typically,  the  people  of  the  South  had  to  sell  things  like  pig 
iron,  and  when  they  bought  back  watch  springs  the  trading  didn't 
go  along  very  far  before  it  affected  their  income  adversely. 

And  the  low  income  in  turn  has  created  problems  of  housing, 
problems  of  health,  and  so  forth.  There  had  sometimes  been  a 
disposition  to  blame  the  present  situation  on  the  present  population. 
Certain  facts  indicate  the  injustice  of  this.  For  instance,  it  can 
be  pointed  out  that  expenditures  for  education  m  the  southern 
States  are  only  a  little  over  half  the  national  average.  But  in 
justice  it  should  be  pointed  out  that  in  many  cases  they  constitute 
a  much  higher  percentage  of  total  State  and  local  tax  money  avail- 
able and  therefore  represent  a  more  energetic  effort  to  get  education 
than  in  other  parts  of  the  country. 

I  merely  wanted  to  state  my  opinion  that  all  of  the  problems 
on  which  so  many  facts  have  been  recorded  in  the  National  Emer- 
gency Council's  report  and  in  the  written  statement  which  is  being 
filed  here,  represent  effects  in  many  cases  rather  than  causes  of  the 
fundamental  condition. 

EFFORTS   NOW   BEING   MADE   IN   TENNESSEE  VALLEY    TO   REMOVE  CAUSES    OF 
MIGRATION 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  you  think  that  the  development  of  the  Tennessee 
Valley  Authority  is  going  to  restore  at  least  a  portion  of  that  econ- 
omy to  those  States  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  May  I  answer  that  by  giving  a  very  condensed  state- 
ment of  the  six  lines  of  activity  which  I  clo  believe  are  contributing 
constructively  toward  these  problems.    Will  that  be  satisfactory? 

Mr.  Parsons.  Yes. 

1.    SOIL  CONSERVATION 

Mr.  Ferris.  In  the  first  place,  the  things  that  are  being  done  in 
the  Tennessee  Valley  area  by  or  with  the  cooperation  of  the  Ten- 
nessee Valley  Authority  are  all  directed,  in  our  opinions,  toward 
creating  more  economic  opportunity  for  individuals. 

The  first  has  to  do  with  rebuilding  soil  and  stimulating  agricul- 
ture. You  will  recall  that  in  1933  we  were  entrusted  with  the  experi- 
mental operation  of  the  Muscle  Shoals  nitrate  plants. 

In  those  plants  concentrated  forms  of  fertilizers  have  been  devel- 
oped and  are  being  produced  experimentally  and  used,  not  only 
in  the  valley  area  but  rather  widely  throughout  the  United  States 
in  a  program  of  restoring  soils. 

Those  fertilizers  include  concentrated  phosphates,  triple-super- 
phosphate with  45  percent  concentration  of  available  phosphorus 
plant  food,  calcium  metaphosphate  with  60  percent  and  others. 

Those  fertilizers  are  not  tested  merely  in  scientific  tests  in  labora- 
tories and  agricultural  experimental  stations  but  are  tested  by  farm- 
ers on  a  large  scale  throughout  the  country. 

It  is  recognized  that  the  farm  is  the  smallest  unit  on  which  to 
observe  how  fertilizers  can  rebuild  soil,  because  not  only  chemistry 
and  biology  are  involved  but  human  nature  and  farm  management 
and  many  other  things. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3829 

There  are  some  32,000  farms  in  the  United  States  participating 
in  the  testing  of  these  fertilizers.  Now,  as  to  the  results,  let  us 
call  attention  to  a  very  preliminary  analysis  made  by  the  University 
of  Tennessee. 

This  includes  1,126  of  these  32,000  farms  chosen,  I  believe,  more 
or  less  at  random  for  a  period  of  3  years,  during  which  time  the 
fertilizers  were  being  tested  in  this  program. 

During  that  time  the  gross  farm  income  on  those  farms  increased 
11.1  percent,  which  was  30.9  percent  greater  increase  than  on  farms  for 
the  State  of  Tennessee  as  a  whole  during  the  same  period. 

On  those  farms  twice  as  much  plant  food  was  getting  back  into  the 
soil  as  would  have  been  possible  at  the  same  costs  under  the  usual 
mixed  fertilizer  procedure. 

An  extension  of  improved  farming  methods  was  occurring  and  this 
test-demonstrated  farm  program  seemed  to  be  pointing  the  way  toward 
a  better  economy. 

Now,  as  to  migration.  On  those  1,126  farms  during  that  3-year 
period,  there  was  not  less  but  more  farm  labor  employed — 3.7  percent 
more.  There  were  more  jobs  for  croppers  and  hired  labor — 17  percent 
more — in  spite  of  the  fact  that  prices  of  farm  crops  had  declined  11.5 
percent  during  that  period. 

The  testimony  today  has  included  some  mention  of  the  difficulties, 
the  special  difficulties,  of  cotton  agriculture.  A  number  of  these  1,126 
farms  were  cotton  farms.  A  check  of  121  of  them  during  the  3-year 
period  shown  indicated  that  even  on  the  cotton  farms  1  percent  more 
expenditures  were  made  for  hiring  labor  on  the  farm  than  had  been 
at  the  beginning  of  the  period,  in  spite  of  the  fact  that  during  that 
3-year  period  cotton  prices  declined  30  percent. 

2.  FORESTRY  DEVELOPMENT 

The  second  major  line  of  activity  in  this  program,  which  may  have 
important  effects  on  migration  ultimately,  is  in  connection  with  the 
encouragement  of  forestry  development. 

There  has  been  an  experimental  program  in  forestry  under  way  in 
the  valley  in  cooperation  with  the  Federal  Forest  Service,  the  C.  C.  C., 
and  the  State  extension  services,  who  have  foresters  on  their  staffs. 

One  hundred  and  ten  million  seedlings,  for  instance,  grown  in  two 
T.  V.  A.  nurseries,  have  been  planted  on  privately  owned  and  some  on 
T.  V,  A. -owned  lands. 

Most  of  this  forestry  work  has  been  of  a  demonstration  nature,  and 
a  large  part  of  it  has  been  carried  out  as  a  means  of  controlling  soil 
erosion — protecting  land. 

At  the  same  time  there  are  ultimate  opportunities  for  much  greater 
improvement  in  using  forest  products. 

3.  DISTRIBUTION  OF  ELECTRICITT  SUPPLY 

The  third  general  type  of  work  under  way  in  the  Tennessee  Valley 
States  is  the  distribution  of  the  electricity  which  we  get  by  controlling 
waters  by  the  dams,  particularly  in  the  establishment  of  mass  con^ 
sumption  pricing  policies. 


3830 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


In  this  matter  of  disposing  of  our  electricity  supply  it  was  recognized 
that  electricity  could  be  an  important  means  of  helping  the  people  use 
the  resources  around  them  and  that  it  was  likely  that  lower  prices 
would  result  in  a  much  freer  and  more  effective  use. 

Merely  to  very  briefly  mention  the  score  of  results  at  the  end  of  a 
few  years,  in  August  1940  the  average  use  of  electricity  in  the  T.  V.  A. 
area  was  49  percent  higher  than  the  average  for  the  Nation,  which 
seemed  to  have  resulted  largely  from  the  fact  that  the  average  rates 
were  46  percent  lower. 

At  this  time  the  average  in  our  area  was  2.1  cents  per  kilowatt-hour 
as  against  3.89  cents  for  the  Nation. 

Now,  the  effect  of  this  mass  pricing  policy  on  electricity  extends  in 
the  valley  far  beyond  the  areas  served  by  municipalities  and  coopera- 
tives who  distribute  the  electricity  generated  on  the  Tennessee  River. 
It  extends  far  beyond  the  Tennessee  Valley  area. 

For  instance,  the  private  companies  operating  nearby  were  led  to 
reduce  their  rates  substantially. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Do  you  sell  them  power  wholesale  and  then  private 
concerns  distribute  it? 

Mr.  Ferris.  I  can't  give  you  the  exact  figures,  but  practically  the- 
entire  area  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  service  network  is  handled  by 
retailers  who  buy  from  the  T.  V.  A.,  the  retailers  being  the  munici- 
palities who  liave  municipal  power  systems,  farm  cooperatives,  and 
individual  manufacturers. 

Some  utilities  outside  of  the  area  immediately  served  by  us  do  have 
contracts  under  which  they  buy  blocks  of  power  from  us,  including, 
the  Arkansas  Power  Co.  and  the  Commonwealth  &  Southern  group. 

However,  the  general  method  of  distribution  is  that  the  power  is 
Avholesaled  by  us.  Now,  these  power  companies  did  decrease  their 
rates  and  the  results  indicate  that  mass  consumption  of  electricity 
follows  low  pricing. 

Between  1932  and  1939  the  Alabama  Power  Co.  and  the  Georgia 
Power  Co.  increased  their  sales  by  80  percent  as  compared  with  a 
national  increase  of  49  percent,  and  so  on. 

There  was  a  great  development  of  the  service  in  rural  areas  as  a 
result  of  this  program. 

In  1932,  60,147  farms  were  served  with  electricity  in  the  seven  val- 
ley States ;  in  1939,  254,800,  an  increase  of  324  percent.  The  increase 
in  farms  served  in  the  Nation  during  that  7-year  period  was  152" 
IDercent. 

Now,  the  growth  of  rural  electrification  is  ])roviding  comforts,  of 
course,  but  far  more  significantly,  it  is  providing  a  stimulus  to  im- 
proved agricultural  practices.  It  is  helping  to  get  agriculture  on  a 
self-sustaining  basis  through  the  use  of  electricity  in  ways  that  im- 
prove the  farmer's  income — rural  refrigeration,  pig  brooders,  chicken 
brooders,  local  feed  grinding,  and  a  long  list  of  uses  resulting  from 
careful  collaboration  between  the  agricultural  engineers  of  the  Ten- 
nessee Valley  Authority,  of  the  universities  and  farmers  to  find  just 
those  ways  of  using  electricity  which  put  the  farmer  in  a  better  posi- 
tion to  pay  off  the  mortgage  [it  the  end  of  the  year.  By  that  I  mean 
mortgage  in  the  usual  sense — not  electricity. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3831 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  want  to  ask  a  question  in  reference  to  new  industrial 
plants  in  the  area.     Is  that  covered  in  your  paper? 

Mr.  Ferkis.  It  is  covered.  It  is  the  next  point  I  was  going  to  make. 
May  I  proceed? 

Mr.  Curtis.  Very  well,  I  will  withhold  my  question. 

4.    INDUSTRIAL  RESEARCH  PROGRA^NI 

Mr.  Ferris.  The  fourth  activity  that  we  feel  has  a  bearing  on  the 
subject  of  this  committee's  consideration  is  the  industrial-research 
program  that  is  under  way.  Proceeding  from  the  assurance  that  the 
problem  of  the  area  is  to  take  a  rather  abundant  endowment  of  re- 
sources and  get  a  better  income  from  them,  we  have  had  engineers, 
research  engineers  and  industrial  engineers,  working  for  several  years 
examining  these  resources,  making  practical  studies  of  what  could 
be  done  with  them  as  a  basis  for  industry,  farm,  forest,  and  mineral 
raw  materials. 

Those  studies  have  in  many  cases  had  rather  interesting  results, 
some  of  the  end  products  being  used  in  private  business. 

The  whole  program  proceeds  from  the  assumption  that  there  is 
nothing  constructive  in  attempting  to  persuade  any  industry  to  move 
from  where  it  is  now  to  any  other  area  in  the  United  States;  that 
the  only  constructive  approach  to  raising  the  income  of  the  area 
in  industry  is  to  find  new  things  to  be  done  which  can  add  to  the 
national  income — that  is,  taking  unused  resources  and  finding  pos- 
sible ways  by  which  businessmen  can  earn  money  by  their  use  in 
industry,  and  so  on. 

This  program  has  included  also  a  study  of  the  effect  of  certain 
interterritorial  freight-rate  barriers  to  the  economic  development  of 
the  Southeast. 

5.    FLOOD  CONTROL 

The  fifth  activity  that  may  have  a  bearing  on  the  problems  before 
this  committee  has  to  do  with  the  actual  control  of  water  in  the 
river  channels,  flood  control,  and  navigation  program. 

That  can  be  mentioned  very  briefly,  as  it  is  perhaps  indirectly 
related  to  your  problem.  However,  the  average  annual  destruction 
of  $2,000,000  worth  of  commercial  property  in  the  valley  region, 
commercial  and  agricultural  property,  is  one  of  the  loads  on  the 
backs  of  the  people  of  the  region,  and  the  relief  from  floods  undoubt- 
edly will  have  considerable  significance. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Just  on  that  point,  Mr.  Ferris.  I  have  been  a  mem- 
ber of  the  Rivers  and  Harbors  Committee  for  several  years.  I  have 
never  been  able  to  understand  how  a  full  lake  almost  to  the  top  of 
the  face  of  the  wall  on  the  Tennessee  River  could  aid  or  assist  in 
the  control  of  a  flood  on  the  Ohio  or  the  Mississippi  River. 

Mr.  Ferris.  I  should  not  think  it  would,  but  that  is  not  what  the 
dams  are  constructed  or  operated  for.  Norris  Dam,  for  instance, 
has  a  15-foot  supercharged  space  that  is  never  used  for  anything 
else  except  flood  control,  with  special  gates  that  are  never  raised 
during  floods.  That  15  feet  takes  care  of  an  enormous  flood-control 
capacity. 


3832  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Parsons.  Well,  I  can  understand  how  it  might  help  to  take 
care  of  some  of  the  flood  conditions  on  the  Tennessee  River  itself  if 
that  area  has  an  unusual  amount  of  rainfall,  as  the  upper  Ohio  did  in 
1937,  but  the  claim  has  been  made — at  least  I  have  been  under  the 
impression  that  the  claim  has  been  made — that  the  improvements 
in  the  Tennessee  Valley  kept  a  tremendous  amount  of  water  out  of 
the  Ohio  Eiver  during  the  1937  flood. 

Mr.  Ferris.  I  am  not  a  civil  engineer,  Mr.  Congressman,  but  I 
do  have  one  figure  on  that  which  I  believe  to  be  reliable.  That  is 
that  at  the  flood  crest  in  the  winter  of  1936  and  1937,  when  the  city 
of  Cairo,  111.,  was  fighting  the  flood  with  a  mud  box  on  top  of  the 
levee,  the  amount  held  back  in  the  Tennessee  Valley  took  that  flood 
crest  down  approximately  a  half  a  foot.  At  the  same  time  it  took 
it  down  4  feet  at  Chattanooga. 

Now,  the  other  answer,  which  may  not  be  what  you  want,  is 
that  the  Kentucky  Dam  now  under  construction  will  add  four  and  a 
half  million  acre-feet  of  flood  storage.  That  is  an  extremely  large 
storage  of  floodwaters. 

Mr.  Parsons.  But  when  that  is  filled  how,  then,  will  that  be  of 
any  aid  or  assistance  to  the  Ohio  River? 

Mr.  Ferris.  Obviously  it  will  not. 

Mr.  Parsons.  You  are  providing  a  system  of  locks  at  the  Gilberts- 
ville  Dam,  are  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  At  the  Kentucky  Dam ;  yes. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Will  those  locks  be  open  for  a  free  and  even  flow  in 
normal  times  and  then  closed  up  during  floodtimes? 

Mr.  Ferris.  I  don't  understand  your  question,  Mr.  Parsons.  I  think 
perhaps  the  best  solution  to  this  situation  is  for  me  to  get  a  half-page 
statement  from  our  civil  engineers,  who  have  presented  the  same  state- 
ment to  the  courts  many  times,  and  file  it  in  the  record. 

Mr.  Parsons.  Well,  of  course,  that  part  of  it  has  nothing  to  do  with 
our  investigation  here,  and  I  should  not  go  so  far  afield,  but  I  am  so 
close  to  the  Gilbertsville  Dam  in  my  territory  in  Illinois,  and  having 
been  on  the  Rivers  and  Harbors  Committee  for  a  number  of  years,  it 
just  provoked  the  question.  We  will  not  discuss  that  any  further, 
because  it  will  take  a  long  time  to  do  it  and  probably  it  will  not  con- 
tribute anything  to  the  migration  problem. 

Mr.  Ferris.  I  am  afraid  I  could  not  add  much  more  than  I  have  said, 
but  I  can  very  well  get  an  accurate  statement  for  you.  In  addition  to 
flood  control,  the  control  of  this  river  does  provide  a  navigation  chan- 
nel which  is  of  significance  not  only  to  the  South  or  to  the  Tennessee 
Valley  but  to  the  Nation. 

There  is  a  5,700-mile  waterway  system  in  the  interior  of  the  United 
States.  This  development  adds  650  miles  to  it,  and  the  shipments  that 
are  actually  rnoving  on  it  are  coming  in  from  the  midwestern  States — 
Missouri,  Illinois,  and  from  other  States  on  the  Mississippi  River 
system. 

Finally,  there  has  been  the  effect  of  the  T.  V.  A.  programs  in  con- 
nection with  its  personnel.  There  have  been  a  great  many  people 
employed  there  during  the  course  of  construction  and  operation  who 
have  had  the  benefit  of  the  T.  V.  A.  training  programs  which  have 
made  certain  contributions  to  the  skills  of  the  workers. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3833 

RELOCATION  OF  POPULATIONS  IX  TENNESSEE  VALLEY 

There  have  been  some  interesting  resnhs  in  connection  with  reloca- 
tion of  populations  and  reservoirs. 

In  connection  with  building  the  reservoirs  a  certain  number  of  farm 
families  had  to  be  moved.  Six  thousand  or  so  have  been  moved 
already.  The  question  has  sometimes  been  asked  as  to  how  the  tenants 
are  coming  out  under  this  situation. 

I  have  a  few  figures  here  that  I  might  leave  in  the  record  in  con- 
nection with  the  five  reservoirs — Wheeler,  Pickwick,  Guntersville, 
Chickamauga,  and  Hiwassee. 

Three  thousand  six  hundred  and  ninety-four  families  were  moved. 
Two  thousand  three  hundred  and  seventy-seven  were  farm  families. 
After  the  relocation  process  had  been  completed,  2,315  continued  in  the 
vocation  of  farming.     Of  the  2,377  farm  families,  1,884  were  tenants. 

Obviously  the  tenants  have  not  been  displaced  but  have  gone  back 
into  agriculture. 

These  six  lines  of  activity  may  or  may  not,  in  the  judgment  of  the 
committee,  have  significance  in  connection  with  the  migration  problem 
of  the  United  States. 

In  conclusion,  it  seems  to  me  that  they  are  directed,  all  of  them, 
toward  fundamental  problems  faced  by  the  people  of  the  Tennessee 
Valley  and  the  Southeast.  The  work  is  being  done  in  a  unique 
manner  perhaps  in  two  respects  in  that  the  Federal  Government  is 
applying  efforts  to  a  large  number  of  varied  problems  of  a  region 
in  a  coordinated  way  on  the  scene  by  an  agency  which  operates  in 
the  field  close  to  the  people  and  their  own  local  institutions,  and  is 
cooperating  closely  with  them. 

That,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think,  is  all  I  have  to  say  unless  you  have 
some  questions  to  ask. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  would  like  to  ask  a  few  questions,  Mr.  Ferris, 
right  on  the  point  you  just  left,  and  that  is  about  the  farm  families 
who  have  been  displaced. 

When  those  families  were  relocated,  were  they  relocated  generally 
in  the  same  area? 

Mr.  Ferris.  Mr.  Congressman,  the  records  I  have  on  the  6,000 
farm  families  is  not  exactly  the  same  group.  Including  all  of  these, 
the  record  showed  that  all  but  24  percent  relocated  in  the  counties  in 
which  they  had  formerly  lived.  All  but  5  percent  relocated  in  the 
States  in  which  they  formerly  lived. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  So  only  5  percent  moved  out  of  the  State? 

Mr.  Ferris.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  probably  not  that  high  a  percentage  out  of 
that  area? 

Mr.  Ferris.  That  is  right. 

industrial  expansion  in  area,  19  33-37 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  mentioned  the  industrial  research  program 
of  the  T.  V.  A.  and  said  something  about  your  encouraging  new  in- 
dustries particularly  adapted  to  that  area  to  establish  themselves 
there — not  to  move  there  but  to  develop  there. 


gg34  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Ferris.  To  grow  up  there. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  there  been  any  to  grow  up  down  there? 

Mr.  Ferris.  The  best  answer  I  can  give  that  perhaps  is  what 
happened  between  1933  and  1937.  During  that  period,  Mr.  Congress- 
man, the  number  of  industrial  establishments  or  commercial  establish- 
ments in  the  valley  increased  39  percent,  whereas  in  the  United  States 
they  increased  only  17  percent. 

On  the  other  hand,  the  number  of  men  employed  increased  41 
percent  in  both  cases.  Hence,  so  far,  it  would  only  be  fair  to  say 
that  the  region  has  kept  up  with  the  rest  of  the  country  except  there 
has  been  a  greater  tendency  toward  smaller  plants  more  widely 
spread. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  have  those  been  plants  or  industries  particu- 
larly adapted  to  that  area  ? 

We  hear  criticism  of  plants  moving  from  other  parts  of  the  coun- 
try.    Has  there  been  any  such  movement  into  the  valley  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  It  is  impossible  to  say  finally  that  there  has  or  that 
there  has  not.     The  ones  of  which  I  know  are  not  of  that  type  at  all. 

The  Monsanto  Chemical  Co.  and  the  Victor  Chemical  Co.,  for 
instance,  are  both  in  middle  Tennessee  because  they  want  the  phos- 
phate rock  that  locates  there. 

Neither  of  them  moved  from  anywhere  else.  They  have  grown  up 
to  use  that  resource  and  the  employment  and  income  is  new  employ- 
ment and  new  income. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  isn't  that  true  of  the  Electro-Metallurgical 
Co.? 

Mr.  Ferris.  I  think  that  is  true  of  the  Electro-Metallurgical  Co. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  the  Reynolds  Metal  Co.? 

Mr.  Ferris.  Reynolds  Metal  Co.  is  getting  its  business  from  the 
expanded  national  consumption  of  aluminum  and  quite  obviously  all 
other  aluminum  plants  are  busier  than  others. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  I  believe  in  your  paper  you  refer  to  a  milling 
company  that  is  going  up  at  Decatur.  I  suppose  that  is  for  thei  pur- 
pose of  consuming  some  of  this  western  wheat. 

Mr.  Ferris.  That  is  the  Nebraska  Consolidated  Mills.  It  is  a  new 
flour  mill  that  takes  western  wheat  and  distributes  it  in  the  form  of 
flour  that  is  sold  throughout  the  Southeast. 

Mr.  Sparkiman.  Is  the  river  being  used  for  navigation  purposes? 

Mr.  Ferris.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  rather  interesting.  It  is  being  used 
already  although  it  won't  really  be  done  for  another  4  years.  Even 
now,  very  important  shipments  are  moving  in,  including  some  75,000 
tons  of  gasoline  last  year.  Important  movements  of  grain  are  coming- 
in.  The  Mountain-City  Mills  Co.  of  Chattanooga  has  set  up  its 
own  barge  line  and  is  bringing  grains  from  St.  Louis. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Has  there  been  any  effect  on  transportation  costs? 

Mr.  Ferris.  There  has  been  a  very  great  effect  on  the  transportation 
costs  of  gasoline.  The  railroads  have  cut  some  rates  on  gasoline 
from  midwestern  refineries  to  Tennessee  Valley  points. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  mentioned  something  awhile  ago  about  this 
freight  rate  barrier  which  plays  against  that  section  of  the  country 
and  against  any  raw  materials  section. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3835 

I  believe  your  predecessor,  Mr.  J.  Hayden  Aldricli  directed  the 
publication  of  a  very  valuable  treatment  of  that  subject,  entitled 
''Interterritorial  Freight  Rates,"  did  he  not  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  He  did,  sir. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Which  ^Yas  published,  as  I  recall,  as  a  House 
document. 

Mr.  Ferris.  Yes;  it  was  submitted  to  the  President  under  section 
22  of  our  act.  The  President  transmitted  it  to  Congress  and  it 
became  a  House  document  about  1937. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Ferris,  I  got  from  your  statement  the  opinion 
that  the  Tennessee  Valley  area  must  continue  to  be  an  out-migration 
section. 

Mr.  Ferris.  The  only  facts  that  we  can  be  sure  of  is  that  of  1.126 
fairly  typical  farmers  immediately  operating  under  the  program  that 
is  made  possible  by  the  T.  V.  A.,  everything  points  to  a  somewdiat 
larger  local  employment. 

The  amount  indicated  so  far  is  short  of  what  would  be  necessary  to 
enable  the  increased  population  all  to  stay  in  the  valley,  but  that  is  a 
matter  that  will  take  years  to  find  out. 

Presumably  rapid  expansion  of  demand  for  labor  in  the  industrial 
cities,  both  in  the  South  and  in  the  North,  will  result  in  considerable 
migration. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  there  an  adequate  supply  of  skilled  labor  in  the 
valley  to  take  care  of  new  industries  that  might  locate  there? 

INIr.  Ferris.  There  is  a  very  considerable  supply  of  labor.  In  some 
skilled  trades  there  are  marked  shortages.  In  certain  trades  in  which 
the  Tennesse  Valley  Authority  has  needed  to  employ  men  it  has  been 
impossible  to  get  them  locally. 

On  the  other  hand  the  industrialists  of  the  region  have  had  an 
experience  generally  indicating  that  the  labor,  although  not  trained 
at  the  outset,  absorbs  skills  very  quickly. 

EMPLOYEE  TRAINING  BY  TENNESSEE  VALLEY  AUTHORITY 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  would  like  for  you  to  tell  us  very  briefly  some- 
thing the  T,  V.  A.  has  been  doing  with  reference  to  training  labor. 

Mr.  Ferris.  Since  1937  or  so  there  has  been  a  joint  apprenticeship 
system  which  was  set  up  in  collaboration  with  organized  labor.  If  you 
want  actual  figures  and  facts  on  it,  I  am  afraid  I  will  have  to  obtain 
tliem  from  our  personnel  department  and  file  them  with  the  record. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  was  thinking  you  had  set  them  out  in  your  pages 
55  and  66,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Ferris.  I  have  a  few  figures'  but  they  refer  primarily  to  this 
apprenticeship  training  program  which  had  trained  a  comparatively 
small  number  of  workers.  For  any  adequate  statement  I  will  have  to 
obtain  them  from  our  personnel  department.^ 

Mr.  Sparkman,  I  did  think  that  it  was  a  matter  of  interest,  particu- 
larly at  this  time  when  there  seems  to  be  a  shortage  in  skilled  labor. 
It  is  interesting  to  know  that  the  T.  V.  A.  has  carried  along  that  pro- 
gram and  you  have  done  it  in  connection  with  organized  labor, 

^  See  pp.  383G-3838. 


3836  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Ferris.  That  is  true.  In  addition  to  that,  Mr.  Congressman, 
there  have  been  a  large  number  of  temporary  employees  in  certain 
jobs — in  clearing  reservoir  areas  at  Pickwick,  for  instance.  In  their 
spare  time  they  have  had  agricultural  training  provided  by  the  land- 
grant  agricultural  college  in  the  area,  in  cooperation  with  the  T.  V.  A., 
so  that  at  the  end  of  their  comparatively  short  period  of  employment 
they  go  back  to  farm  life  better  equipped  to  run  their  farms  than  they 
had  been  before  working  for  the  T.  V.  A. 

METHODS  OF  EMPLOYMENT 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Ferris,  we  have  had  a  good  bit  of  testimony 
before  our  committee  describing  the  confusion  that  has  resulted  at 
many  of  these  defense  projects  over  the  employment  of  labor,  showing 
the  great  masses  of  people  that  have  migrated  in  there  hoping  to  get 
a  job. 

I  have  been  quite  impressed  with  the  methods  that  the  T.  V.  A.  has 
used  in  recruiting  its  labor  for  such  projects.  I  wonder  if  in  a  few 
words  you  might  describe  that  method  to  us  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  In  general  the  effort  has  been  to  employ  local  labor 
where  it  was  available  instead  of  encouraging  large  migrations  inward. 

The  whole  employment  policy  has  been  carefully  developed  in  order 
to  minimize  useless  wandering  of  people  back  and  forth  around  the 
area. 

As  to  an  accurate  statement  as  to  where  and  how  the  people  are 
employed,  I  will  have  to  include  that  in  any  statement  on  training 
policies,  if  you  want  more  detail. 

There  have  been  some  shortages  which  have  been  met  by  employing 
people  from  outside  of  the  area,  but  by  and  large  an  effort  has  been 
made  to  avoid  that. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  We  shall  be  glad  to  accept  that  for  the  record. 

(The  material  referred  to  was  received  subsequently  and  follows :) 

Empwyee  Twining  in  the  Tennessee  Vatxey  Authority 

The  employee  training  program  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  is  designed 
to  develop  the  skills  needed  by  the  Authority  where  such  skills  are  not  readily 
available  to  it,  to  increase  efficiency  of  employees  on  their  present  jobs,  and  to 
increase  employee  qualifications  for  promotion  to  jobs  at  higher  levels.  The 
program  is  conducted  largely  outside  of  regularly  scheduled  hours,  and,  in  the 
main,  participation  is  voluntary.  Extensive  cooperation  with  State  boards  of 
vocational  education,  State  and  local  universities,  and  local  school  systems  has 
been  utilized  to  integrate  the  training  program  of  the  Authority  with  the  programs 
of  educational  agencies  in  the  area. 

Tlie  following  describes  the  program  conducted  during  the  fiscal  year  1940: 

TRAINING  FOE  CRAFTS 

On  June  30,  1940,  training  programs  for  apprentices  were  provided  in  the 
following  crafts :  Carpenters,  electricians,  steamfltters,  ironworkers,  construction 
machinists,  substation  electricians,  construction  linemen,  maintenance  linemen, 
maintenance  electricians,  and  hydroplant  maintenance. 

The  distribution  and  number  of  apprentices  in  eacli  of  the  crafts  are  presented 
in  table  1. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


3837 


Table  1.— Apprentices  employed  hy  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  as  of  June  30, 

1940 


Total 

Number  of  apprentices  by  location 

Craft 

Chicka- 
mauga 

Hiwassee 

Ken- 
tucky 

Watts 
Bar 

Wheeler 

Other  1 

27 
33 
16 
13 
16 
28 
40 

1 
2 

5 

12 

12 

7 
9 

13 
8 
2 
5 
6 

Electricians 

2 

Steamfitters 

1 

1 

28 

40 

3 

Maintenance  electricians 

1 

9 

Electricians 



Department  of  Chemical  Engineer- 

12 

12 

3 
2 
2 
3 

1 

Steamfitters 

Inside  machinists 

Briekmasons 

1 

Total                           -      . 

198 

4                  7  1              57  j              34 

3 

1  93 

'  Apprentices  in  the  Department  of  Operations  and  in  the  hydroplants,  located  at  various  points  through- 
out the  Tennessee  Valley. 

SEMISKILLED   WORKMEN   AND   JOUBNEYMEN 

In  addition  to  training  for  apprentices,  a  training  program  is  also  provided  for 
semiskilled  workmen  and  journeymen.  Typical  courses  offered  in  this  category 
are  cable  splicing  and  lead  work,  instruments,  plant  problems  and  blueprint  read- 
ing, machine-shop  practice,  the  use  of  the  micrometer,  shop  mathematics,  and 
welding. 

TRAINING  PLAN  FOR  STUDENT  ENGINEERS 

During  the  year  the  training  plan  for  student  engineers  was  continued.  This 
plan  provides  for  the  appointment  of  two  student  engineers  for  each  job  under  the 
plan,  the  students'  alternating  periods  of  school  and  work.  A  total  of  30  pairs  of 
student  employees  participated  in  this  plan  during  the  fiscal  year. 

IN-SER\nCE    TRAINING 


Increased  emphasis  was  placed  on  a  program  of  in-service  training  for  profes- 
sional and  semiprofessional  employees.  Typical  activities  offered  in  cooperation 
with  local  educational  agencies  or  in  informal  study  groups  (in  1  month)  are^ — • 


Mechanics. 
Civil  Engineering. 
Hydraulics. 
Fluid  Mechanics. 
Electrical  Engineering. 
Seminar  on  the  Economics  of  Multiple- 
Purpose  Projects. 
Hydraulic  Design. 
Model  Analysis. 


April  1940. 


IVlathematics  (two  classes). 

Chemical  Engineering. 

Accountinsi-  Seminar. 

Business  Law. 

Elementary  Accounting. 

Personnel  Administration. 

Principles  of  Administrative  Legislation 

and  Adjudication. 
Labor  Organization  and  Relations. 


ooQO  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Seminar   on    Administrative    Organiza-    Operations  Seminar. 

tion.  Highway  Design. 

Orientation  Lecture  Series.  Drafting  Teclinique. 

Public  Speaking  Clubs  (three).  Lettering. 

Film  Study  Group.  Map  Compilations. 

Constructive  Accounting.  Perspective  Drawmg. 

Cost  Accounting.  Symmetrical  Components. 

Highway  and  Railroad  Seminar.  Reading  Clubs. 

Police  Officers'  Class.  Comptometry. 
Drafting  Seminar. 

NUMBER  OF  INDIVIDUAL  PARTICIPANTS 

Tlie  number  of  individual  participants  in  employee-training  programs  is  set 
forth  in  table  2.  One-fourth  of  the  Tennessee  Valley  Authority  personnel  (2o.7 
percent  of  the  average  number  of  employees)  took  part  in  at  least  one  activity 
during  the  year;  many  of  these  employees  participated  in  more  than  one  training 
activity.    Comparable  figures  are  not  available  prior  to  the  fiscal  year  1940. 

Table  2. — Humler  of  individual  participants  in  employee-training  activities,  hy 
location,  for  the  fiscal  year  ending  June  30,  19^0 

Location : 

Chattanooga   (includes  Chickamauga  Dam) P96 

Hiwassee  Dam (*) 

Kentucky  Dam 1.  092 

Knoxville 320 

Watts  Bar  Dam 300 

Wilson  Dam 418 

Total '  3, 12G 

1  Figure  for  Hiwassee  Dam  not  available.  Office  had  been  closed  when  request  for  these 
data  was  made. 

NUMBER   OF   MEETINGS   AND   TOTAL   ATTENDANCE 

The  number  of  meetings  and  total  attendance  for  employee  training  activities 
for  fiscal  years  ending  June  30,  1936-40,  are  set  forth  in  table  3.  The  reduction 
results  chiefly  from  a  reduction  in  number  of  locations  at  which  there  are  large 
numbers  of  employees  and  from  the  fact  that  figures  for  earlier  years  also 
included  many  activities  now  considered  community  educational  services. 

Table  3. — Number  of  meetings  and  cumulative  attendance  for  job  and  in-service 
training  activities  for  fiscal  years  ending  June  30,  1936-^0 


Fiscal  years  ending  June  30 

Number  of 
meetings 

Cumulative 
attendance 

1940 

4,503 

7;729 
6,148 
4,871 

39,313 

1939                       -                                                     

46, 656 

1938 

63, 071 

1937 

53, 167 

1936 -     

62, 073 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  P.  FEERIS— Resumed 


Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  you  noted  any  migration  into  the  valley  as  a 
result  of  defense  projects  there  ? 

Mr.  Ferris.  I  do  not  have  accurate  figures  on  that.  Generally 
speaking,  there  has  been  no  basic  change  in  the  situation  of  a  high 
birth  rate — too  many  people  to  earn  a  living  easily,  inadequate  oppor- 
tunities, and  a  tendency  to  migrate  outward.  I  have  heard  vaguely 
of  some  local  shortages  of  small  numbers  of  workers  here  and  there, 
but  I  cannot  give  you  accurate  facts. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3839 

Mr.  Sparkman.  In  your  paper  you  give  us  some  very  good  statistics 
relating  to  tlie  increase  in  economical  appliances  used  by  the  people  of 
that  area,  brought  about  very  largely,  I  presume,  by  the  lowered  rates 
at  which  electricity  may  be  obtained. 

I  am  just  wondering 'if  you  could  give  us  any  idea  what  level  of  cash 
income  it  is  necessary  for  a  farmer  to  have  in  order  to  be  able  to  afford 
these  electrical  appliances. 

Mr.  Ferris.  The  electrical  appliances  listed  in  my  written  statement 
were  primarily  for  city  people. 

The  low-income  farmers  generally  start  with  light  and  radio  and 
then  it  becomes  a  problem  of  using  electricity  to  earn  a  living — using 
such  things  as  poultry  brooders  or  having  access  to  local  rural  refriger- 
ation cooperatives. 

Now,  that  use  of  electricity  is  advantageous  to  farmers  of  low  in- 
come. I  should  say  many  farmers  with  cash  incomes  down  well  below 
the  $400  a  year  level  are  finding  electricity  very  effective  in  helping 
them  increase  those  incomes. 

For  instance,  you  probably  are  fully  aware,  better  than  I,  of  the 
problem  of  loss  of  hog  meat  in  the  South.  You  have  $35,000,000  worth 
of  pork  slaughtered  on  farms  in  the  South  every  year,  and  some  esti- 
mates are  that  about  $8,000,000  worth  of  it  is  lost. ' 

Well,  some  of  the  low-income  farmers  who  eat  a  lot  of  pork  of  that 
sort  are  getting  together  in  local  refrigeration  associations,  following, 
incidentally,  the  development  of  suitable  units  by  the  engineers  of  the 
T.  V.  A.  and  the  university. 

As  a  result  of  that  they  are  able  to  avoid  some  of  those  losses  of  meat. 
They  can  store  their  pork  during  the  curing  time  in  refrigerated 
storage,  thus  avoiding  losses. 

Now,  to  the  extent  that  a  low-income  farmer  can  get  back  some  of 
that  $8,000,000  for  himself  because  he  has  access  to  local  rural  refriger- 
ation, he  is  using  electricity  to  help  increase  his  income. 

The  same  thing  is  true  with  sweetpotato  curing  and  poultry  brooding 
and  local  feed  grinding. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  believe  that  is  all  I  have. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Nothing  further. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Ferris.  You  have  given 
us  a  very  valuable  contribution. 

The  Chairman.  The  next  witness  is  Mr.  David  Lasser. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DAVID  LASSER,  PRESIDENT,  AMERICAN  SECURITY 
UNION,  WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

The  Chairman.  Your  name  is  David  Lasser  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Lasser,  you  have  been  here  most  of  the  day. 
We  are  at  adjournment  time  now  and  I  want  to  say  to  you  that 
you  are  here  at  your  own  request.  We  want  to  extend  you  every 
courtesy,  but  we  would  like  to  have  you  be  as  brief  as  possible  be- 
cause we  are  going  to  insert  your  whole  statement  in  the  record 
which  will  become  a  part  of  the  record. 


Qg40  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

Mr.  Keporter,  at  this  point  in  the  record  you  will  insert  the  pre- 
pared statement  of  Mr.  Lasser. 

(The  statement  referred  to  is  as  follows :) 

STATEMENT  OF  DAVID  LASSER,  PRESIDENT,  AMERICAN  SECURITY 
UNION 

At  the  outset,  I  would  like  to  express  the  appreciation  of  the  underprivileged 
we  represent  for  the  able  work  being  done  by  this  committee.  Its  interest  and 
intelligence  is  raising  the  hopes  of  many  hundreds  of  thousands  for  some  im- 
provement in  their  terrible  condition  of  life. 

I  am  here  as  a  representative  of  the  American  Security  Union,  the  100- 
percent  American  organization  of  unemployed.  Works  Projects  Administration 
workers,  and  those  seeking  security. 

We  desire  to  contribute  out  of  our  experience  some  constructive  suggestions,, 
not  only  as  to  how  the  problem  of  destitute  migrants  may  be  met,  but  ta 
cure  the  conditions  which  have  created  the  problem. 

We  are  sure  the  committee  recognizes  that  the  destitution  of  migrants  is 
only  a  sore  coming  from  the  deep-lying  poison  of  social  insecurity.  No  matter 
how  carefully  you  treat  that  sore,  unless  the  poison  is  removed,  the  sore  will 
break  out  with  increasing  frequency. 

The  poison  of  social  insecurity  in  Europe  killed  democracy  and  gave  birth 
to  dictatorship  and  war.  The  desperation  that  leads  hundreds  of  thousands 
of  Americans  to  pick  up  and  move  somewhere  else— anywhere  else— led  suffering: 
people  in  Europe  to  give  up  liberty  and  freedom  in  the  final  hope  that  it  would 
improve  their  conditions.  ^      ^.       ,  ^ 

In  America,  we  are  turning  our  great  energies  to  the  problem  of  national  de- 
fense. We  are  determined  to  keep  at  least  the  armed  forces  of  dictatorship  away 
from  our  shores.  .       .       ,      „      . 

The  job  of  total  defense,  according  to  a  letter  sent  our  organization  by  Presi- 
dent Roosevelt,  "cannot  be  complete  until  all  Americans  willing  and  able  to 
work  have  a  job  and  a  decent  standard  of  living,  and  that  all  unable  to  work 
through  no  fault  of  their  own  have  security." 

Upon  that  statement  of  the  President,  we  base  our  approach  to  the  problem  of 
destitute  migrants.  .      ^       .,      ^     . 

To  get  anywhere  in  this  problem,  we  must  face  determinedly  the  facts  of 
social  insecurity  in  America  and  have  the  courage  to  put  into  effect  the  measures 
necessary  to  end  insecurity.  Only  then  will  we  keep  from  our  American  shores 
the  weapons  of  propaganda  and  internal  confusion  which  the  dictators  want 
to  employ  as  the  prelude  to  military  weapons. 

The  total  defense  we  need  today  means  utilizing  for  necessary  work  the  labor 
of  every  person  able  and  willing  to  work.  It  means  that  we  will  preserve  as 
something  precious  the  human  dignity,  the  health,  and  morale  of  our  underprivi- 
leged people.  In  wiping  out  the  causes  that  make  destitute  migrants,  we  need 
to  equal  the  effectiveness  that  the  dictators  have  shown  in  utilizing  their 
resources. 

TWO  KINDS   OF   MIGRATION 

There  are  two  kinds  of  migration.  There  is  the  migration  of  hope  which 
founded  and  then  built  this  country.  That  comes  from  people  answering  a  call 
for  a  better  job  or  better  opportunity  elsewhere.  That  kind  we  certainly  want 
to  encourage  today  so  as  to  have  a  real  mobility  of  our  labor,  to  be  used  where 
needed. 

The  other  migration  is  that  which  comes  from  desperation :  from  the  feeling 
that  conditions  are  so  unbearable  that  it  is  better  to  be  anywhere  else. 

The  healthy  migration  can  be  encouraged ;  the  unhealthy  kind  can  be  stopped 
by  one  overshadowing  policy :  the  policy  that  citizens  of  the  United  States  will 
have  the  helping  hand  of  our  American  Government  no  matter  what  State  or 
city  they  may  be  in. 

For  basic  in  the  problem  this  committee  is  examining,  are  the  contradictions, 
the  lack  of  planning,  the  horrible  inadequacy,  the  confusion  in  our  whole  security 
set-up  today. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3g41 

NEED  OVERHAULING  OF  SOCIAL  SECURITY  MEABtlRES 

Because  there  are  many  kinds  of  social  security,  each  one  administered  dif- 
ferently, each  one  with  wholly  different  benefits  and  pensions,  the  whole  thing 
needs  overhauling. 

We  have  the  Work  Projects  Administration,  a  joint  venture  between  Federal 
Government  and  cities  and  counties.  Wages  on  it  range  from  $30  to  $90  a  month  ; 
w«  have  direct  relief,  which  is  a  State  and,  in  many  cases,  entirely  a  local  respon- 
sibility. Relief  may  be  as  little  as  a  grocery  basket  a  week,  $5  a  month,  $40  or  $50 
a  month.  Then,  we  have  old-age  assistance,  child  and  blind  pensions  on  a  match- 
ing basis  between  State  and  Federal  Government ;  and,  finally,  we  have  unem- 
ployment compensation  supervised  by  the  Federal  Government  but  administered 
by  the  State,  which  may  provide  $5  to  $15  a  week  for  4  to  12  weeks. 

The  shifting  policies  of  Congress  on  Work  Projects  Administration  further 
confuse  the  hodgepodge  and  affect  the  financing  of  every  other  category  of  aid. 

The  confusions  and  contradictions  which  give  one  unemployed  citizen  $5  a 
month  and  give  another  $75  arise  also  because  of  the  difference  in  the  standards 
and  the  wealth  of  the  various  States. 

We  need,  therefore,  not  only  the  arm  of  the  Federal  Government  to  protect 
a  citizen  no  matter  where  he  may  live  in  America ;  but  we  need  to  use  Federal 
resources  to  equalize  the  burden  as  between  poor  and  rich  States.  Finally,  we 
need  to  finance  an  adequate  program  by  taxation  of  idle  funds,  that  its  holders 
can't  or  won't  use,  and  use  them  to  make  possible  work  and  security  to  all 
our  citizens. 

RECOMMENDATIONS 

For  this  job  we  propose  the  following  program : 

1.  We  propose  a  great  national  public-works  program  to  employ  unemployed 
people  to  do  necessary  national-defense  work.  By  national  defense  we  mean 
total  defense.  Such  a  program,  which  we  would  call  a  defend  America  works 
program,  would  be  natio-nal  in  th,e  sense  that  all  Americans  would  be  eligible — 
irrespective  of  what  State  they  are  citizens.  It  would  be  free  from  the  humilia- 
tions of  the  relief  stigma  ;  free  from  the  poverty  wages,  from  the  crippling  hand 
of  uncooperative  sponsors  which  are  part  of  the  Work  Projects  Administration 
program.  Its  purpose  would  be  to  defend  America  and  defend  Americans  by 
providing  necessary  work ;  paying  decent  wages  and  treating  those  working  ol> 
it  as  "first-class  citizens"  and  not  "second-class  citizens." 

This  program  would  replace  the  present  Work  Projects  Administration.  It 
would  employ  at  least  3,000,000  persons  as  long  as  there  was  necessary  work  to- 
be  done,  and  as  long  as  that  number  of  people  were  available  who  could  not 
find  employment  in  private  industry. 

Together  with  the  roads,  barracks,  and  airports  it  would  build,  it  would  work 
on  the  health,  sanitation,  and  welfare  work  necessary  to  national  defense. 

There  is  plenty  of  use  for  our  unemployed  labor.     Let's  make  use  of  them. 

This  program  would  be  continuous,  adjusted  to  the  rise  and  fall  of  private 
employment,  even  after  the  end  of  the  present  defense  emergency.  It  would  be 
so  planned  as  to  avert  an  economic  collapse  when  armament  expenditures  ceased. 
It  would  take  care  of  the  huge  number  of  "hopeful"  migrants  who  went  to  new 
industrial  cities  to  contribute  their  labor  in  turning  out  planes,  guns,  ships,  and 
who  find  themselves  jobless. 

This  measure  alone  would  take  care  of  a  large  part  of  the  migrant  problem. 

2.  We  propose  a  new  social-security  category  of  unemployment  assistance  for 
those  who  could  not  be  employed  on  these  public  works  for  any  reason,  and 
who  are  in  need  of  aid.  Disbursed  by  the  Social  Security  Board  to  States  which 
set  up  approved  relief  systems,  this  aid  would  guarantee  to  those  in  need  of 
relief  a  decent  subsistence  wherever  they  might  be.  The  Federal  Govenmient 
would  give  to  States,  as  in  old-age  assistance,  one-half  to  two-thirds  of  the  total 
grant,  depending  on  the  resources  of  the  State. 

This  would  end  the  disgrace  of  $5  a  month  relief  checks  in  many  States ;  or 
the  rules  in  others,  such  as  the  District  of  Columbia,  that  employable  people 
must  break  an  arm  before  they  can  receive  aid.  It  would  stop  that  migration 
of  desperation  which  takes  place  when  people  feel  it's  better  to  be  anywhere 
else  than  at  home. 


3842 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


3  In  both  the  relief  and  work  programs,  as  indicated,  State  barriers  would 
be  down;  and  a  citizen  of  Ohio  who  has  gone  to  California  need  not  feel  like 
an  alien 'from  Patagonia.  ...  -^  /■         *- 

4  The  extension  of  imemployment  compensation  to  provide  more  adequate 
and  equalized  benefits;  and  provision  to  take  care  of  workers  who  have 
migrated  from  one  State  to  another  and  do  not  want  to  lose  their  benefits. 
This  needs  Federal  participation  in  unemployment  compensation. 

5  Concerted  national  planning  and  action  to  solve  the  unemployment  prob- 
lem on  a  permanent  peacetime  basis,  and  to  make  available  to  all  the  people 
the  high  standard  of  living  we  are  able  to  produce. 

This  program  will  be  costly.  But  so  is  any  real  national  defense.  Our 
Nation  is  prepared  to  pay  $35,000,000,000  to  reaim  before  this  emergency  is 
over  But  that  will  only  give  us  weapons.  Why  not  add  the  protective  defense 
of  a  healthy,  contented  people  who  have  faith  in  democracy  because  it  has 
given  them  security? 

There  are  some  people  influential  in  our  Nation  who  declare  that  these  pro- 
posals we  make  are  unnece.ssary.  The  armament  problem  will  solve  everything, 
they  say;  and  even  the  aid  we  give  our  underprivileged  today  is  unnecessary. 
These  impatient  advocates  of  economy  at  the  expense  of  our  underprivileged 
would  gamble  with  the  health  and  welfare  of  the  people  and  the  safety  of  our 
Nation.  Right  now  they  are  planning,  if  they  can,  practically  to  scuttle  the 
Work  Projects  Administration  program  and  make  hundreds  of  thousands  more 
destitute. 

If  present  aid  is  cut,  hundreds  of  thousands  will  find  their  slender  income 
removed.  Lured  by  the  prospect  of  a  job  somewhere  else,  they  will  move  to 
another  town  only  to  find  3  or  4  unemployed  waiting  for  every  job  available. 

It  is  well  to  look  at  the  facts  and  see  whether  they  are  right  in  their  con- 
tentions that  less  aid  is  needed  today. 

Today  there  are  about  8,500,000  unemployed.  Of  them,  1.900,000'  are  on 
Work  Projects  Administration;  another  750.000  are  certified  and  waiting;  still 
another  1.000.000  or  more  should  be  certified  but  are  not.  This  total  group 
numbers  3,650,000  or  less  than  half  the  total   unemployed. 

Of  the  new  jobs  given  by  industi'y,  this  great  group  gets  only  40  percent. 
Let  us  assume  that  private  employment  increases  by  3,000,000  over  the  next 
period.  What  will  happen  to  our  needy  group?  They  will  get  40  percent  of 
those  jobs,  or  1.200.000.  Therefore,  there  will  be  left  nearly  2.500,000  in  that 
group.  That  is  600,000  more  than  have  Work  Projects  Administration  jobs 
today.  In  other  words,  even  a  3.000,000  increase  in  employment  will  leave 
an  unmet  need  of  about  600,000  for  works  program  employment.  Actually  it 
will  require  an  increase  of  about  4,250.000  just  to  remove  the  backlog  of  those 
waiting  for  works  program  jobs.  These  are  facts,  and  no  emotionalizing  about 
economy  can  change  them. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DAVID  LASSER— Resumed 

The  Chairman.  Are  there  any  highlights  you  want  to  call  to  our 
attention,  Mr.  Lasser  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Well,  if  it  is  more  convenient  to  the  committee  I  would 
be  glad  to  come  back  tomorrow  morning. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  the  trouble  with  that  is  we  are  crowded  to- 
morrow the  same  as  w^e  have  been  today.  Tomorrow  is  our  last  day, 
and  the  reason  we  are  waiting  now  is  to  hear  you  and  another  witness 
so  we  may  formally  get  into  the  record  your  full  statements. 

Mr.  Lasser.  All  right,  sir ;  I  will  be  glad  to  be  quite  brief.  I  don't 
think  it  will  take  me  more  than  15  minutes. 

The  Chairman.  I  have  read  your  statement,  and  it  is  not  necessary 
to  go  over  that.  Why  can't  you  give  us  your  recommendations  ?  That 
is  what  we  are  interested  in.     We  are  familiar  with  conditions. 

Mr.  Lasser.  All  right,  sir.  I  will  be  very  glad  to  do  that.  As  the 
committee  is  aware,  the  problem,  as  I  indicated  here  in  the  statement, 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3843 

of  destitute  migrants  is  only  the  revealing  of  a  sore  the  cause  of  which 
is  necessary  to  find  if  we  are  going  to  cure  the  problem  of  destitute 
migrants,  and  this  sore,  in  our  opinion,  is  social  insecurity. 

We  believe  that  people  migrate  first  in  hope  of  a  job  and,  secondly, 
they  migrate  because  of  desperation  of  conditions  that  are  too  un- 
bearable. 

CAUSE  or  MIGRATION  IS  SOCIAL  INSECURITY 

Our  belief  is  that  the  cause  of  migration  among  the  underprivileged 
groups  is  basically  the  confusion  that  exists  between  the  various  parts 
of  what  is  called  social  security — the  confusion  as  between,  let  us  say^ 
W.  P.  A.,  in  which  you  have  a  joint  sponsorship  between  the  Federal 
Government  and  the  cities  and  States,  and  local  relief,  which  is  a 
responsibility  of  the  localities,  unemployment  compensation,  old-age 
assistance,  and  lack  of  uniiormity  between  States  in  residence  require- 
ments. 

RECOMMENDATIONS 

Our  first  recommendation  basically  is  that  there  has  to  be  an  over- 
liauling  of  our  social-security  categories,  so  that  a  person  will  feel  no 
matter  where  he  is  that  he  has  certain  rights  if  he  is  in  need  as  a  citizen 
of  the  United  States.  There  must  be  a  more  coherent  program  of 
social-security  aid  in  which  a  person  will  not  be  denied  relief  for  aid  if 
he  should  for  one  reason  or  another  move  from  one  State  to  another. 

Our  recommendations  are  four  or  five  in  number,  which  we  believe 
are  practical  and  cannot  only  cure  the  migrant  problem  but  what 
lies  back  of  it. 

(Firstly,  we  would  propose  the  scrapping  of  the  present  W.  P.  A. 
program  and  putting  in  its  place  a  new  works  program  employing 
about  3,000,000  people  in  Avhica  people  will  be  eligible  not  because  they 
are  on  relief  but  because  they  are  unemployed  and  in  need  of  work  and 
can't  find  work  in  private  industry. 

People  would  not  be  compelled  to  go  on  relief  rolls  to  get  this  aid 
and  therefore  a  man  could  remain  in  his  own  locality,  or,  if  he  hap- 
pened to  take  a  job  and  the  job  gave  out,  he  would  find  he  would  be 
eligible  for  works-program  employment  because  he  happens  to  be  out 
of  work  and  in  need  of  work. 

We  believe  that  the  present  W.  P.  A.  program,  as  a  means  of  reliev- 
ing destitution,  of  which  the  migrant  problem  is  one,  is  wholly  inade- 
quate and  it  no  longer  meets  the  needs  of  1940. 

It  does  not  meet  the  needs,  first,  because  the  program  as  far  as  the 
number  employed  is  too  small. 

Secondly,  the  wages  paid  are  too  low  for  decent  subsistence,  and, 

Third,  conditions  on  it  are  such  as  to  make,  we  believe,  of  these 
people  second-class  citizens  instead  of  first-class  citizens. 

So  we  believe  if  there  were  an  adequate  public-works  program  that 
would  take  care  of  a  large  part  of  the  destitute  people  who  form  the 
migrant  class,  this  condition  would  be  cured. 

We  believe,  especially  now  Avhen  our  Nation  is  trying  to  rearm  and 
defend  itself,  that  there  is  absolutely  no  excuse  for  our  not  utilizing 


260370— 41— pt.  9- 


^QAA  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

the  labor  of  every  person  who  is  in  need  of  work  and  who  wants  to 
work. 

I  represent  these  people  and  I  know  that  whether  they  can  stick 
it  out  in  their  homes  or  have  to  move  to  another  place  they  want  to 
contribute  their  labor  to  the  defense  of  our  Ndion  and  they  are  willing 
and  ready  to  do  that  and  they  want  such  work. 

Point  two  is  that  we  propose  that  instead  of  local  relief  being  a  local 
responsibility  there  be  established  a  category  of  what  we  w^ould  call 
unemployment  assistance.  We  recommended  this  to  Congress  on  sev- 
eral occasions  in  which  the  Federal  Government  would  participate 
with  the  States  in  making  grants  to  the  States  if  the  States  were  to  set 
up  approved  relief  systems.  That  means  if  they  were  to  set  up  a 
relief  system  which  met  certain  Federal  standards,  the  Federal  Gov- 
ernment would  match  by  half  or  two-thirds  the  relief  which  is  given 
in  the  locality  irrespective  of  whether  the  person  happened  to  be  a 
citizen  of  the  State  in  which  he  lived.  If  he  was  there  on  a  justifiable 
purpose  and  was  in  need  of  Federal  aid,  it  would  be  given  just  as  it  is 
now  given  to  old-age  assistance,  aid  to  dei)endent  children,  and  what 
not. 

This  program  of  unemployment  assistance  distributed  by  the  Social 
Security  Board  would  take  care  of  anodier  large  section  of  those 
people  who  are  made  destitute  and  who  })ick  up  in  desperation  and 
find  that  it  is  better  to  be  anywhere  else  Jian  where  they  are  because 
their  conditions  of  life  where  they  are  are  too  unbearable. 

We  find,  for  example,  that  in  States  in  the  South  the  relief  may 
average  $5  a  month  per  person.  In  other  cases  it  may  be  just  a  gro- 
cery order.  A  person  may  find  in  New  York  that  the  same  relief  would 
be  $40  a  month  and,  therefore,  he  says,  ''I  can't  be  any  worse  off  by 
trying,  I  will  pick  up  and  I  will  leave  Georgia  or  Alabama  and  I  will 
go  to  New  York." 

The  third  proposal  we  would  make  is  as  mentioned,  that  in  these 
relief  and  works  programs  tliat  the  State  barriers  woidd  be  down  and 
a  citizen  of  Ohio  who  has  gone  to  California  need  not  feel  as  though 
he  is  an  alien  from  Patagonia  because  he  happened  to  be  in  California 
instead  of  Ohio. 

There  should  be  an  extension  of  unemployment  compensation  to 
provide  more  adequately  the  equalizing  of  benefits  and  provisions 
to  take  care  of  workers  who  have  migrated  from  one  State  to  an- 
other and  who  do  not  want  to  lose  their  benefits.  That  would  mean 
some  kind  of  Federal  participation  in  the  unemployment  com- 
pensation. 

Fifth,  concerted  national  planning  and  action  to  solve  the  unem- 
ployment problem  on  a  permanent  peacetime  basis  and  to  make 
available  to  all  the  people  the  high  standard  of  living  we  are  able 
to  produce. 

Now,  these,  very  briefly,  and  condensed,  are  our  recommendations. 

DANGER  OF  CURTAILING  PRESENT  RELIEF  PROGRAM 

I  would  like  to  make  one  further  observation  on  this,  which  I  think 
is  very  pertinent  to  what  the  committee  is  attempting  to  do.     In  the 


INTJDRSTATE  MIGRATION 


3845 


next  4  or  5  months  the  problem  that  you  are  trying  to  solve,  the 
migrant  problem,  can  become  much  better  or  it  can  become  infinitely 
worse.  That  will  depend  on  what  Congress  does  with  regard  to 
appropriations  to  aid  the  needy  over  the  next  few  months. 

There  are  moves  alresldy  being  started  now  on  the  basis  of  antici- 
pated increase  in  private  employment  to  cut  drastically  the  aid  which 
is  now  given,  such  as  by  W.  P.  A. 

I  am  sure  you  gentlemen  recognize  that  if  this  action  were  taken 
and  these  people  could  not  secure  private  employment,  it  is  going 
to  cut  hundreds  of  thousands  of  additional  people  loose  from  their 
own  homes  and  set  them  adrift  on  the  highways  and  byways  in  the 
hope  of  finding  a  job  in  another  place. 

We  believe  that  the  attempt  to  cut  W.  P.  A.  now  is  a  mistaken 
attempt  and  it  is  going  to  make  our  whole  social  problem  infinitely 
worse. 

I  would  just  like  to  give  you  briefly  a  figure  which  I  think  sub- 
stantiates the  case  I  am  making.  The  story  is  told  us  today  that  the 
need  for  such  aid  not  only  to  people  who  are  at  home  but  to  migrants 
also  is  less  because  of  the  increase  in  private  employment  and  there- 
fore the  people  who  are  now  receiving  aid  can  expect  to  be  absorbed 
in  industry  in  the  very  near  future. 

We  find  today  that  there  are  about  81/2  million  unemployed.  Of 
these  1,900,000  are  on  W.  P.  A.,  another  750,000  are  certified  and 
waiting,  another  1,000,000  should  be  certified  but  are  not. 

This  total  group  numbers  3,650,000  or  less  than  half  the  total 
unemployed.  Of  the  new  jobs  given  in  industry  therefore,  this  great 
group  cannot  expect  to  get  more  than  40  percent.  Let  us  assume 
therefore  that  private  employment  increases  by  3,000,000  over  the 
next  period — what  will  happen  to  our  needy  group  ? 

They  will  get  no  more  than  40  percent  of  those  jobs  and  no  more 
than  1,200,000.  Therefore,  there  will  be  left  nearly  21/0  million  in 
that  group  and  that  is  600,000  more  than  there  are  W.  P.  A.  jobs 
today. 

In  other  words,  even  witl]  an  increase  in  private  employment  of 
3,000,000  it  will  leave  an  unmet  need  of  600,000  for  Works  "Program 
employment. 

Therefore,  it  will  require  an  increase  of  about  4,250,000  in  private 
employment  just  to  remove  tlie  backlog  of  those  who  are  now  waiting 
for  Federal  aid. 

Now,  4,250,000  are  a  lot  of  people.  I  understand  that  Dr.  Lubin, 
appearing  here  yesterday,  expressed  his  opinion  that  there  would  be 
an  increase  of  6,000,000  by  the  end  of  1941. 

We  certainly  hope  that  his  optimism  is  well-founded  and  that  our 
people  will  go  back  to  work. 

I  don't  think  we  can  afford  to  take  a  chance  that  that  will  be  well- 
founded  and  I  don't  believe  we  ought  to  cut  this  aid  which  is  now 
already  inadequate.  We  are  giving  about  half  of  what  is  needed  until 
this  increase  in  employment  actually  materializes  and  then  we  are  all 
in  favor  of  telling  people  no  matter  where  they  might  be,  whether 
migrants  or  not,  that  if  there  is  private  employment  available  they 
should  take  it.     But  until  the  private  employment  actually  material- 


QL^g  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

izes  we  don't  believe  that  the  ah-eady  inaoequate  aid  should  be  cut, 
because,  I  repeat,  if  it  is  with  the  prospect  of  private  employment 
hundreds  of  thousands  and  perhaps  millions  of  additional  people  are 
suddenly  going  to  pull  up  their  stakes  and  they  are  going  to  move 
wherever  they  hear  of  the  possibility  of  a  job,  only  to  find  three  or  four 
people  already  there  waiting  for  every  job  that  is  available. 

Now  that  will  serve  as  my  brief  statement. 

Mr.  CuETis.  Mr.  Lasser,  where  do  you  live  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Washington. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  want  to  ask  you  a  few  questions  for  the  information 
of  the  committee  and  for  the  purpose  of  the  record. 

Mr.  Lasser.  Surely. 

CREATION  AND  ORGANIZATION  OF  AMERICAN  SECURITY  UNION 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  old  an  organization  is  the  American  Security 
Union  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Well,  sir,  we  are  just  a  baby.  We  were  formed  in 
August  of  this  year. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  you  are  the  president  of  the  organization  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Who  are  the  other  officers  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  John  W.  Gruse  of  Indiana  is  the  secretary.  We  have  a 
national  board. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  Mr.  Gruse's  addres-s  in  Indiana? 

Mr.  Lasser.  He  is  here  now  in  Washington  but  his  home  is  in  Terre 
Haute,  Ind.  I  might  explain,  sir,  for  }Our  information,  something 
of  the  growth  of  our  organization. 

I  used  to  be  the  president  of  the  Workers'  Alliance  of  America.  In 
July  of  this  year  I  resigned  because  ol  tha  Communist  influence  in  the 
organization.  A  large  number  of  the  groups  in  the  Workers'  Alliance 
pulled  out  with  me  and  set  up  the  American  Security  Union. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Who  are  the  other  officers  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Well,  there  is  a  national  board  of  20  whose  names  I  will 
be  very  happy  to  furnish  you.  I  believe  it  is  on  our  letterhead  if  you 
have  one  there. 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  do  not  have  it.     Will  you  submit  one  to  the  reporter  i 

Mr.  Lasser.  I  will  be  very  glad  to. 

(The  letterhead  referred  to  is  as  follows:) 

American  Security  Union 

National  Headquarters,   1719  K   Street  NW 

rhone  NAtional  4G94 

WASHINGTON,    D.    C. 

David  Lasser,  President  John  W.  Gbuse,  Secretary-Treasurer 

National  Committee:  George  Becker,  Wisconsin;  Mary  Carter,  Kansas;  Albert 
Castner,  New  Jersey ;  Lawrence  Conway,  West  Virginia ;  J.  Clande  Davis, 
Wyoming ;  Katherine  Dease,  Georgia ;  Edward  Diggs,  New  Jersey ;  Ida  Glad- 
son,  Iowa  ;  Irene  Kunst,  Illinois ;  E.  E.  Lacey,  Missouri ;  Hugh  Leeka,  Indiana ; 
Edward  Milburn,  Iowa;  Eugene  Poulnot,  Florida;  Helen  Reddick,  Illinois; 
Fred  Rohrbacher,  Illinois ;  John  Sparks,  Ohio ;  Frank  Stanek,  Minnesota ; 
Ann  White,  Michigan ;  Donald  Wilson,  Ohio ;  James  Witherspoon,  Ohio. 

"Security  for  Atnerica  means  America's  Security''^ 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


3847 


Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  ypur  business  or  profession?  How  do  you 
make  a  living? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Well,  I  was  trained  as  an  engineer.  The  little  living 
I  make  I  make  as  a  paid  officer  of  the  American  Security  Union. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  manv  members  do  you  have  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  We  have,  sir,  about  20,000. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Where  arft  they  located? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Twenty-fiur  States— spread  pretty  much  throughout 
the  country. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Is  it  a  labi)r  union? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Yes ;  we  vould  call  it  a  labor  union  of  unemployed 
and  W.  P.  A.  workers.  That  is,  we  are  sort  of  a  hybrid  organiza- 
tion, but  that  is  the  best  evidence  I  can  give  you. 

Mr.  Curtis.  How  do  ypu  recruit  your  members?  Do  you  have 
field  workers? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Well,  we  darter  locals  in  our  organization  and  give 
them  a  certificate  of  affiliation,  and  the  locals  are  authorized  to  re- 
cruit membership  in  their  own  territory  and  jurisdiction. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  you  lijave  recniited  20,000  members  since  last 
July? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Well,  as  I  ^ay,  a  large  number  of  them  were  then 
members  of  the  Workers'  Alliance,  and  when  I  and  some  other  offi- 
cers pulled  out  these  people  came  over  with  us. 

Mv.  Curtis.  Is  the  American  Security  Union  in  any  way  con- 
nected with  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Sir,  we  do  not  permit  Communists  in  our  organ- 
ization. As  I  informed  you  pur  organization  was  formed  as  a  revolt 
against  the  Communist  domination  of  the  Workers'  Alliance,  and 
we  pulled  out  on  that  basis,  aiid  our  constitution  forbids  Communists 
or  Fascists  or  any  of  those  beople  to  be  members  of  our  organiza- 
tion— we  keep  them  out. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Are  any  of  the  officers  or  leaders  former  Communists? 

Mr.  Lasser.  I  would  not  know,  sir.  They  certainly  can't  be  mem- 
bers and  be  Communists.     What  they  were  formerly,  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Have  you  priot  hereto  been  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Pardon  me? 

Mr.  Curtis.  Have  you  prioi?  hereto  been  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist Party?  i 

Mr.  Lasser.  Never,  never,  sirj 

Mr.  Curtis.  Never  have?         \ 

Mr.  Lasser.  No. 

]\Ir.  Curtis.  Now,  what  dues  do  you  charge  these  W.  P.  A.  workers  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Well,  our  national  per  capita  is  13  cents  a  month  per 
member.  That  is,  the  locals  are  permitted  to  charge  their  own  dues 
but  we  charge  them  13  cents  per  month  per  member.  That  is  what 
we  call  the  per  capita. 

Mr.  Curtis.  What  is  the  anticipated  annual  income  of  your  na- 
tional organization  ? 


3848 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


Mr.  Lassek.  Well,  I  wouldn't  say  it  ie  going  to  be  very  great 
because  there  are  a  lot  of  these  people  who  can't  afford  to  pay  dues. 
Some  of  them  are  unemployed,  some  on  relief,  and  some  lose  their 
W.  P.  A.  jobs  and  we  are  just  a  trifle  too  young  to  have  many 
anticipations. 

If  I  were  to  give  you  a  rough  figure  I  ^ould  say  maybe  $15,000 
a  year  if  a  goodly  percentage  of  them  pa\  dues,  but  that  may  not 
happen. 

FINANCE    PROPOSED    FEDERAL    SECURITY    PEOGRAMS    BY    TAXATION 

Mr.  Curtis.  I  noticed  in  your  statement  following  the  five  recom- 
mendations you  make,  you  have  this  statement :  "This  program  will  be 
costly." 

Do  you  have  any  suggestions  to  make  as  to  how  to  meet  that  cost? 
Should  it  be  by  further  borrowing  or  do  you  have  any  suggestions 
with  reference  to  taxation  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Yes,  sir;  we  emphatically  believe  it  ought  to  be 
through  taxation  rather  than  borrowing. 

Mr.  Curtis.  "W^iat  type  of  taxation  ^ 

Mr.  Lasser.  Well,  to  put  it  briefly,  I  vould  say  taxation  on  what 
we  call  idle  wealth.  That  is  the  wealth  which  is  neither  spent  nor 
invested,  wealth  which  just  lies  in  the  banks  not  being  used.  And 
I  tliink  if  you  trace  it  back  you  will  generally  find  that  wealth  be- 
longs to  people  of  large  incomes  who  hive  more  than  they  want  to 
use  or  spend  or  invest — corporations  wh'ch  have  large  surpluses  that 
they  can't  use — inheritances,  gifts,  tax-exempt  securities,  that  general 
category.  And  I  think  they  would  represent  the  categories  of  what 
we  would  call  idle  wealth. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  think  surpluses  are  a  bad  thing? 

Mr.  Lasser.  No,  sir;  I  think  they  are  an  excellent  thing  if  they 
are  used  when  needed.  In  other  words,  we  are  all  in  favor  of 
individuals,  governments,  corporations  saving  up  for  a  rainy  day. 
But  we  believe  that  when  the  rainy  day  comes  they  ought  to  be  used. 

In  other  words,  with  45,000,000  people  in  the  country  today  under- 
fed, we  believe  that  money  which  is  not  being  used  for  any  othei' 
useful  purpose  should  be  used  to  take  care  of  these  people. 

And  I  might  say  parenthetically,  sir,  that  although  we  feel  sympa- 
thy for  everybody  who  is  hungry,  we  would  much  rather  see,  first,  that 
our  own  hungry  citizens  were  taken  care  of  before  we  begin  to  feed 
people  in  other  countries. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Well,  I  noted  what  you  said  figuratively  about  the 
rainy  day. 

Mr.  Lasser.  Yes. 

Mr.  Curtis.  Who  will  decide  when  it  rains  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  W^ell,  under  our  democratic  form  of  government  it  is 
up  to  the  Congress  of  the  United  States,  by  its  power  to  legislate 
and  its  power  to  tax. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  you  think  the  Congress  of  the  United  States 
should  use  that  power  to  dissipate  corporate  surplus  and  private 
savings  that  were  not  working  and  funds  of  that  sort  ? 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3849 

Mr.  Lasser.  "Well,  sir,  we  would  take  precisely  the  same  attitude 
as  would  be  taken,  let  lis  say,  by  a  community  where  there  hap- 
pened to  be  a  lake  ownetl  by  one  person  who  had  more  water  than 
he  wanted  to  use,  eithei*  for  drinkino;  or  for  any  other  purpose, 
and  many  other  memberg  of  the  community,  through  no  fault  of  their 
own,  were  suffering  a  drkight. 

Now,  I  think  that  c(^mmunity  in  its  good  sense  and  judgment 
would  take  away  part  of  the  water  which  is  not  needed  by  that 
one  person  and  distribute  it  to  the  other  people  who,  through  no 
fault  of  their  own,  are  lacking  in  water. 

We  feel  that  the  samej  thing  is  applicable  to  our  situation  today 
with  millions  of  people,  as  I  say,  45,000,000  people,  who  are  under- 
fed, millions  of  them  uijemployed.  The  whole  health  of  our  eco- 
nomic organism  would  hk  improved  instead  of  the  wealth  lying  in 
one  place — it  would  be  distributed  through  our  economic  system. 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  wouH  you  have  the  Government  take  it  away 
from  those  who  have  it  aid  give  it  to  those  who  do  not  have  it  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Well,  it  already  does  that  in  a  sense  through  taxa- 
tion of  income  and  through  taxation  of  corporations. 

Mr.  Curtis.  But  you  would  have  it  done  in  an  accentuated  manner  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Yes.  i 

Mr.  Curtis.  And  you  wkild  follow  that  with  a  capital  levy  tax? 

Mr.  Lasser.  No,  sir;  beciuse  that  might  do  more  harm  than  good. 
Wealth  is  one  thing  and  money  is  one  thing.  Capital  is  another  and 
capital  may  be  represented  py  a  building.  It  might  be  very  difficult 
to  take  a  building  apart  and;  distribute  it. 

We  saw  this  morning  wjliere  the  Secretary  of  the  Treasury  is 
making  one  of  those  steps  tip  reduce  the  tax  exemption  on  bonds  in 
order  to  get  at  what  he  callfe  "slacker  wealth,"  and  we  think  it  is  a 
very  excellent  start  in  that  cfirection. 

Mr.  Curtis.  You  approve  of  ]\Ir.  Morgenthau's  move  ? 

Mr.  Lasser.  Yes,  sir. 

]\Ir.  Curtis.  That  is  all  I  liave,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  We  tliank|you,  Mr.  Lasser,  for  your  contribution. 

Our  next  witness  is  Mr.  Ma^nusson. 

TESTIMONY  OF  LEIPUR  MAGNUSSON,  CHAIRMAN  OF  LEGISLATIVE 
COMMITTEE,  MONDAY  EVENING  CLUB,  WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Magnisson,  will  you  give  your  name  and 
official  connection  and  address  to  the  reporter  ? 

Mr.  Magnusson.  ]SIy  name  is  Leifur  Magnusson.  I  am  chairman 
of  the  legislative  committee  of  the  Monday  Evening  Club  of  Wash- 
ington, D.  C. 

I  have  submitted  a  written  statement. 

The  Chairman.  Yes ;  and  it  will  be  inserted  in  the  record  at  this 
point. 

(The  statement  referred  to  is  as  follows:) 

statement  of  leifur  magnusson,  chairman,  legislative 
committee,  monday  evening  club,  washington,  d.  c. 

I  am  appearing  before  the  committee  as  chairman  of  the  legislative  committee 
of  the  Monday  Evening  Club  of  Washington.     This  group  has  an  active  clues- 


3850 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 


paying  membership  of  about  600  persons.  It  represents  both  lay  and  specialized 
interests  of  social  welfare  in  the  District  of  Colnuibia. 

The  District's  problem  of  the  transient  worlier  is  what  brings  me  before  this 
committee. 

Tlie  club  has  a  plank  in  its  platform  which  approves  public  assistance  to  all 
needy  nonresidents  pending  their  return  to  their  legal  jurisdictions,  where  pos- 
sible, or  pending  their  adjustment  in  the  community.  This  means  that  a  special 
fund  must  be  created  and  maintained,  we  believe  for  this  particular  segment 
of  social  work  in  the  District.  The  fund  should  hi  a  joint  District  and  Federal 
one,  as  the  scope  of  the  problem  extends  beyond  the  District. 

The  migrant  problem,  as  has  so  often  been  repeated  here,  is  a  natural  and 
national  problem.  People  have  an  inalienable  riglit  to  move  about  from  oppor- 
tunity to  opportunity  in  the  economic  world.  The  States  cannot  act  as  sealed 
vacuum  bottles  of  their  people.  Social  problems  in  the  United  States  knowing 
no  State  lines  are  for  the  most  part  national  problems.  This  is  especially  so 
in  the  District  with  its  limited  area  and  its  drawing  power  as  the  capital. 
Mr.  Bondy  in  his  statement  to  the  committee  has  indicated  the  special  causes 
aggravating  transiency  in  the  District  and  told  ycu  the  history  of  its  treatment. 
I  would  like  to  endorse  his  four-point  program  wLich  includes : 

1.  Uniform  settlement  laws  for  the  various  States  and  tl;e  District  of  Columbia. 

2.  Adequate  general  relief  to  bs  accomplished  under  the  Federal  Social  Security 
Act  by  making  provision  for  the  District  of  Columbia  that  the  Social  Security 
Board  match  local  expenditures  with  general  pujiic  assistance  in  the  same  way 
that  it  matches  local  expenditures  for  old-age  assistance,  aid  to  the  needy  blind, 
and  aid  to  dependent  children. 

3.  As  part  of  a  Federal  program  suitable  pro'-ision  of  funds  for  care  of  non- 
resident persons  and  families  during  the  period  of  investigation  of  residence  for 
return  to  the  home  State  and,  in  the  event  that  residence  is  not  found  to  exist,  a 
period  of  care  until  a  plan  is  developed  in  each  instance. 

4.  A  municipal  lodging  house  with  suitable  sa'vices  that  would  meet  a  reason- 
able part  of  the  need  for  lodging  facilities  fo:*  homeless  men,  both  white  and 
colored. 

And  now,  may  I  add  a  word  on  the  general  problem  of  migi-ation  with  which 
you  are  dealing?  I  ask  this  because  years  ago  I  used  to  study  and  write  about 
camp  housing  and  company  towns  as  a  would- je  expert  in  the  Bureau  of  Labor 
Statistics,  and  later  was  director  of  the  Washington  Branch  of  the  International 
Labor  Office. 

Theie  are  two  obvious  phases  to  the  problem  of  migratory  labor.  There  is  first 
the  absolute  minimum  of  movement  that  just  go  with  seasonal  crops  and  seasonal 
industries  which  depend  on  those  seasonal  crops  as  well  as  on  special  seasonal 
market  requirements,  and,  second,  the  problem  of  stabilization  of  that  probably 
larger  part  of  the  movement  that  arises  from  bad  economic  conditions  and  un- 
healthy social  circumstances. 

Brielly,  for  that  normal  seasonal  migration  the  chief  remedial  action  lies  in 
adequate  temporary  camp  housing  and  public-health  inspection  of  such  premises. 
For  treatment  of  the  underlying  economic  distress  the  answer  is  small-farm  pro- 
prietorship and  Government  credit  for  purchase  of  small  holdings.  Denmark, 
for  example,  has  conserved  her  agricultural  leadership  and  settled  her  population 
and  greatly  stabilized  both  her  agricultural  and  industrial  population  by  a  system 
of  small  holdings,  begun  over  a  generation  ago.  The  evils  of  tenancy  can  be 
great  and  devastating.  The  contrary  benefits  of  spall  holdings  and  more  coop- 
erative living  can  be  contrariwise  equally  salutary.  Instead  of  having  Avasted 
$4,000,000,000  in  triple-A  subsidies  to  going,  if  not  fairly  prosperous,  concerns  in 
agriculture,  this  country  should  have  spent  that  amount  for  settling  a  million 
families  on  their  home  soil  from  which  they  were  bred  and  in  which  they  naturally 
find  their  greatest  contentment. 

TESTIMONY  OF  LEIFUR  MAGNUSSON— Resumed 

The  Chairman.  It  is  getting  rather  late  and  we  will  appreciate  it 
if  you  will  make  your  oral  statement  as  brief  as  possible. 

Mr.  Magnusson.  If  you  will  permit  me,  I  will  omit  the  statement 
entirely  and  go  to  something  else. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3851 

The  Chairman.  I  shall  be  ^lad  to  do  that.  We  shall  be  glad  for 
you  to  make  any  remarks  you  care  to,  but  do  so  as  briefly  as  possible. 

Mr.  Magnusson.  I  am  interested  mainly  in  the  local  situation  for  the 
provision  of  a  local  fund  whi-h  would  cooperate  with  the  National 
Government  and  tlie  Disttict  o'  Columbia  in  providing  that  fund. 

There  was  some  doubt  cast  ipon  the  fact  that  if  we  established  a 
local  fund  in  the  Districi  and  provided  perhaps  too  generous  relief 
the  people  might  flock  to  tlis  cit}. 

That  is  true  but  it  worlls  both  ways.  Those  people  would  be  ques- 
tioned and  examined  and,  ^lerefore,  expedited  in  their  return  to  their 
homes,  which  is  a  desirably  thing,  and  if  they  have  no  home  some  ade- 
quate relief  can  be  provided  for  them  here.  That  is  the  main  point 
in  behalf  of  a  local  fund  fbr  caring  for  the  transients. 

It  is  true,  Mr.  Chairman  that  we  get  more  than  we  are  entitled  to 
because  they  have  to  cross  t)e  Potomac  River  at  tliis  point  but  perhaps 
when  we  get  the  new  bridge  Baltimore  will  get  more  of  them,  but 
that  won't  solve  the  probkn.  We  will  still  have  migrants  to  take 
care  of. 

What  I  have  to  say  in  gineral  with  reference  to  the  fundamental 
matter  is  two  things :  | 

It  is  first  a  matter  of  relieif  for  those  who  are  distressed  in  looking 
for  jobs.  Relief  is  necessarj  but  it  seems  to  me  that  there  has  been 
altogether  too  much  empha^s  on  the  relief  aspect  of  it.  That  has 
nothing  to  do  with  a  solution  of  social  security,  old-age  pensions  and 
W.  P.  A.  and  all  that.  It  seei^is  to  me  that  is  entirely  irrelevant  so  far 
as  a  solution  of  the  migrant  pr(J:)lem  is  concerned. 

Our  problem  is  to  get  peo^jle  in  contact  witli  either  capital  or  on 
the  land  out  of  which  they  can  flet  their  living. 

Now,  it  is  futile  to  talk  of  cupital  in  certain  regions  in  this  country 
and  the  establishment  of  industrial  plants  where  there  isn't  the  under- 
lying population  to  begin  with. 

It  may  not  be  good  poetry,  Mr.  Congressman,  but  it  is  usually  pre- 
sumed to  be  good  poetry,  that  "i  bold  peasantry  is  our  country's  "pride, 
and  when  once  destroyed  can  never  be  supplied."  But  it  is  even  better 
economy  because  it  seems  to  me  the  problem  if  migration  is  to  get  these 
workers  to  stay  on  the  land  and  in  their  localities  as  much  as  ]:)0ssible. 

As  I  say  in  my  statement  I  think  this  country  would  be  nnich  better 
advised  if  we  had  spent  our  foui  billions  which  in  5  years  we  put  into 
A.  A.  A.  agricultural  subsidies,  as  a  loan  fund  to  give  to  people  to  buy 
land  and  to  free  themselves  from  tlie  evils  of  tenancy. 

That  would  have  taken  care  of  1,000,000  families  in  the  United 
States — it  would  have  put  them  to  work  on  their  own  land  making 
their  own  living  instead  of  being  migrant  labor. 

In  other  words,  with  an  appropriation  of,  let  us  say,  $500,000,000  a 
year — which  is  nothing  compared  to  the  amounts  that  have  been 
dished  out  for  A.  A.  A.  subsidies  to  farmers  who  I  don't  think  needed 
it,  because  they  were  going  concerns  already — we  could  have  put  many 
people  on  their  own  land. 

That  is  the  example  that  we  have  in  agricidtural  countries  such  as 
Denmark  and  Scandinavia  and  countries  which  have  practiced  that 


2g^2  INTERSTATE  MIGRATION 

system  for  the  last  30  years,  with  the  resilt  they  have  a  stable  peasantry 
and  a  stable  population  earning  its  lifting  and  making  a  mnnmum 
claim  upon  relief,  which  in  the  long  ru|  of  society  is  a  scandalous  way 
of  wasting  money. 

Don't  misunderstand  me,  social  legifiation  has  its  part,  but  nothing 
to  do  with  the  economic  business  of  j)uttiig  people  in  contact  with 
capital  or  land  on  which  they  can  mak^  theii'  living. 

There  is  also  a  problem  in  education,  but  ve  can't  do  all  those  things 
at  the  present  time.  Education  in  the  locality  must  go  along  with  this 
attempt  to  settle  the  people. 

Instructions  in  farming  must  go  along  vith  the  teaching  of  diversi- 
fied agriculture,  and  so  forth. 

The  problem,  in  other  words,  is  a  stricty  capitalistic  one.  I  might 
put  it  that  way,  a  problem  of  stimulating  the  producer— set  him  to 
work.  Put  labor  in  contact  with  land  and  capital  and  that  seems  to  me 
is  the  problem. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Magnusson,  what  is  the  Monday  Evening  Club  ? 

Mr.  Magnusson.  The  Monday  Evening  Club  is  a  group  of  people  in 
the  District  of  Columbia  who  are  interested  in  the  welfare  of  the 
District  of  Columbia.  It  includes  both  the  lay  people  and  the  people 
who  are  administrators  in  the  welfare  agencies. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  meet  every  JV.onday  ? 

Mr.  Magnusson.  We  meet  every  moiih.  We  have  about  600  mem- 
bers and  we  discuss  local  relief  problem;-. 

The  Chairman.  And  are  you  an  offiaal  of  the  organization? 

Mr.  Magnusson.  I  am  chairman  of  the  legislation  committee. 

The  Chairman.  And  is  it  in  that  capacity  that  you  are  here  today  ? 

Mr.  Magnusson.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Does  this  represent  :he  views  of  your  organization? 

Mr.  Magnusson.  Insofar  as  I  speat  for  the  local  relief  fund,  the 
necessity  of  maintaining  that,  I  am  speaking  for  the  Monday  Evening 
Club. 

I  make  it  clear  in  my  statement  tliat  on  these  other  things  I  am 
speaking  merely  out  of  my  knowledgi  and  experience  because  I  used 
to  be,  about  25  years  ago,  with  the  Buieau  of  Labor  Statistics  studying 
this  problem. 

The  Chairman.  As  I  understand  it,  the  substance  of  your  statement 
is  that  in  treating  the  migrant  problem  we  need  to  strike  at  the  roots 
of  it? 

Mr,  Magnusson.  I  think  so. 

The  Chairman.  These  other  things  that  you  mention  and  criticize 
somewhat  are,  we  realize,  more  or  less  palliatives  that  must  be  given 
as  an  immediate  remedy. 

Mr.  Magnusson.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  And  not  a  cure  ? 

Mr.  Magnusson.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  So  I  believe  we  don't  differ  insofar  as  that  is  con- 
cerned ? 

Mr.  Magnusson.  No  ;  I  don't  think  so. 


INTERSTATE  MIGRATION  3853 

The  Chaikman.  Your  argiment  is  that  we  need  to  strike  at  the 
roots  of  it  ? 

Mr.  JVIagnusson.  That  ig  all  ,here  is  to  it. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you  ^ery  much.  The  hearing  will  now  ad- 
journ until  10  o'clock  tom<^rrov  morning. 

(Wliereupon,  at  5 :  30  p[  m.,  the  hearing  adjourned  until  10  a.  m., 
Wednesday,  December  11,1940.) 


BOSTON  PUBLIC  LIBRARY 


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