rF
■^
Xi.
m
, Ji5,_ -
Given B>
U. 5. SOFT, or PCK-y rvFW^
?ar\^ W- on''^^^^.nlA^L
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE
INTEBSTATE MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS
HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIVES
SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
THIRD SESSION
PDRSUANT TO
H. Res. 63, 491, and 629
RESOLUTIONS TO INQUIRE INTO THE INTERSTATE
MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS, TO STUDY,
SURVEY, AND INVESTIGATE THE SOCIAL AND
ECONOMIC NEEDS AND THE MOVEMENT OF
INDIGENT PERSONS ACROSS STATE LINES
PART 9
WASHINGTON HEARINGS
DECEMBER 5, 6, 9, and 10, 1940
Priuted for the use of the Select Committee to Investigate the
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE
INTEESTATE MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
THIRD SESSION
PURSUANT TO
H. Res. 63, 491, and 629
RESOLUTIONS TO INQUIRE INTO THE INTERSTATE
MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS, TO STUDY,
SURVEY, AND INVESTIGATE THE SOCIAL AND
ECONOMIC NEEDS AND THE MOVEMENT OF
INDIGENT PERSONS ACROSS STATE LINES
PART 9
WASHINGTON HEARINGS
DECEMBER 5, 6, 9, and 10, 1940
Printed for the use of the Select Committee to Investigate the
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1941
^^SUP£fffNTENDENTOFOOCUME^f^.
^iiN 10 1341
SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE INTERSTATE MIGRATION
OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS
JOHN H. TOLAN, California, Chairman
CLAUDE V. PARSONS, Illinois CARL T. CURTIS, Nebraska
JOHN J. SPARKMAN, Alabama FRANK C. OSMERS, Jr., New Jersey
Dr. ROBEKO? K. Lamb, Chief Investigator
Virginia Elliott, Acting Secretary
RICHARD S. Blaisdell, Editor
Harold D. Cullen, Associate Editor
LIST OF WITNESSES
Washington Hearings, December 5, 6, 9, and 10, 1940
Page
Alves, Henry S., of the Office of Education, Social Security Board. Ad-
dress: Washington, D. C 3561, 3592, 3596
Carpenter, Martin F., Chief of Employment Service Division, Bureau of
Employment Security, Social Security Board. Address: Washington,
D. C 3561, 3574
Carruthers, Rev. John, representing National Presbyterian Church, Con-
necticut Avenue and N Street, Washington, D. C. Address: 1015
Prospect Boulevard, Pasadena, Calif 3623
Clague, Ewan, Director, Bureau of Employment Security, Social Security
Board. Address: Washington, D. C 3561, 3567, 3576
Coffee, Dr. E. R., United States Public Health Service, Social Security
Board. Address : Washington, D. C 3561, 3579
Eliot, Charles William, Director, National Resources Planning Board.
Address: Washington, D. C 3724, 3726
Ferris, John P., Director, Commerce Department, Tennessee Valley Au-
thority. Address : Knoxville, Tenn 3797, 3825
French, William Howard, former farmer and coal miner in West Virginia,
Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. Address : 1524 Twenty-sixth Street
NW., Washington, D. C 3556
Gallagher, Hubert R., Assistant Director, Council of State Governments.
Address: Chicago, 111 3480, 3483
Goodrich, Dr. Carter, professor of economics, Columbia University. Ad-
dress : New York, N. Y 3756, 3759
Hoehler, Fred K., Director of American Public Welfare Association. Ad- '
dress: Chicago, 111 3465, 3469
Hoey, Jane (Miss), Director, Bureau of Public Assistance, Social Security
Board. Address: Washington, D. C 3504, 3520, 3529
Jackson, Glenn E., director of public assistance. New York State Depart-
ment of Social Welfare. Address: Albany, N. Y 3544
Kahn, Dorothy C, assistant executive secretary, American Association of
Social Workers. Address: 130 East Twenty-second Street, New York,
N. Y _ 3643, 3649
Lasser, David, president of American Security Union. Address : Washing-
tou, D. C 3839, 3842
Lubin, Dr. Isador, Commissioner, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Department
of Labor. Address : Washington, D. C 3698
McCrea, John, former hotel and restaurant worker from Lancaster, N. Y.
Address: Care of Transient Bureau, Washington, D. C 3608
Magnusson, Leifur, chairman of legislative commdttee, Monday Evening
Club. Address: Washington, D. C 3S49, 3850
Marsh, Benjamin C, executive secretary of the People's Lobby. Address: '
Washington, D. C 3651,3652,3661
Ranch, Fred R., Acting Commissioner, Federal Works Agency, Work Proj-
ects Administration. Address: Washington, D. C 3626,3628
Roosevelt, Mrs. Franklin D. Address: Washington, D. C 3742
Ryan, Rt. Rev. John A., D. D., representing the National Catholic Welfare
Conference. Address: Washington, D. C 3490,3492
Shackelton, Chester G., migrant from Kansas, now working in airplane
plant at Baltimore. Address : 12 East Lafayette Street, Baltimore, Md_ 3665
Shishkin, Boris, director of research, American Federation of Labor. Ad-
dress: Washington, D. C 3673
Smith, Dr. Carl T., lecturer in economics, Columbia Universitv, New York
N. Y. Address : 1900 H Street, Washington, D. C _* 3767, 3783
III
IV LIST OF WITNESSES
Page
Sweareugin, Rolaud LeGrand, former plasterer, born in Virginia. Address:
728 Fifth Street NW., Washington, D. C S549
Tate, Jack B., general counsel, Department of Education, Federal Security
Agency. Address: Washington, D. G 3504,3520,3529
Thomas, Mrs. Albert A., mother of migrant family of five children and wife
of electrician from St. Louis, Mo. Address : Alexandria Tourist Camp,
Alexandria, Va 3733
Williams, Roberta C, staff association, National Travelers' Aid Associa-
tion. Address: New York, N. Y 3613,3618
Windhorst, Le Roy P., former farmer from Kansas, now working at air-
plane plant in Baltimore, Md. Address : Welles, Kans 3669
STATEMENTS AND MATERIAL SUBMITTED BY WITNESSES
Subject
Statement for the American Public Welfare
Association.
Statement for the Council of State Govern-
ments.
Statement for the National Catholic Welfare
Conference.
Present Situation with Regard to Migrants
and Recommendations for their Care.
Legal Requirements for Residence, General
Relief.
Trends in Residence Requirements for Public -
Assistance Categories.
Provisions for the Care of Transients by-
General Relief Agencies.
Settlement, Residence, and the Power of a
State to Exclude or Remove Nonsettled
Needy Persons.
Letter from Anne E. Geddes
The Program of the Bureau of Employment
Security as it Relates to Migration.
Health Needs of Interstate Migration of
Destitute Citizens, by Dr. Thomas Parran,
Surgeon General, United States Public
Health Service.
Summary and Conclusions, United States
Public Health Service, by Dr. Parran.
Problems of Education Caused by Migra-
tions of Families with Children of School
Age, by J. W. Studebaker, Commissioner
of Education, United States Office of
Education.
Problems in Connection with Defense Mi-
gration as Seen by the National Travelers
Aid Association.
Summary of Replies Received to Question-
naire on Defense Activities.
Migration of Destitute Citizens to Defense
Centers.
Relationship of Work Projects Administra-
tion to Migrant Families Seeking Work.
Statement for the American Association of
Social Workers.
Statement of Executive Secretary, People's
Lobby.
Proposal for Public Control and Ownership of
Natural Resources.
Excerpts from Prepared Statement
Statement from the National Resources Plan-
ning Board.
Study of Population Redistribution
Changes in American Agriculture and Some of
the Results.
Witness
Fred K. Hoehler
Hubert R. Gallagher
John A. Ryan
Jane M. Hoey
Jane M. Hoey
Jane M. Hoey
Jane M. Hoey
Jack B. Tate
Jane M. Hoey
Ewan Clague
E. R. Coffee
Henry S. Alves
Roberta C. Williams
Roberta C. Williams
Fred R. Ranch
Fred R. Ranch
Dorothy C. Kahn
Benjamin C. Marsh-
Benjamin C. Marsh-
Boris Shishkin
Charles W. Eliot
Carter Goodrich
CarlT. Schmidt
Page
3465
3481
3490
3504
3506
3509
3511
3513
3528
3562
3579
3584
3592
3613
3616
3626
3641
3644
3651
3656
3697
3724
3757
3767
VI
STATEMENTS AND MATERIAL SUBMITTED
Subject
Witness
Page
Relationship of the Tennessee Valley Author-
ity Program to the Interstate Migration
Problem.
Effects of Regional Integration of Activities-.
Employee Training in the Tennessee Valley
Authority.
Statement by President of the American Se-
curity Union.
Statement of Legislative Committee, Mon-
day Evening Club.
John P. Ferris
3798
3824
John P. Ferris
3836
David Lasser .
3840
Leifer Magnusson
3849
INTEESTATE MIGRATION
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1940
House of Representatives,
Select Committee to Investigate the
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens,
Washington, D. C.
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John H. Tolan (chairman)
presiding.
Present: Representatives John H. Tolan (chairman), Claude V.
Parsons, Carl T. Curtis, and Frank C. Osmers, Jr.
Also present: Dr. Robert K. Lamb, chief investigator; Henry H.
Collins, Jr., coordinator of hearings; Creekmore Path and John W.
Abbott, field investigators; Ariel E. V. Dunn and Alice M. Tuohy,
assistant field investigators ; Irene M. Hageman, hearings secretary ;
Richard S. Blaisdell, editor; Harold D. Cullen, associate editor.
The Chairman. The committee will please come to order, and I
will ask Mr. Hoehler to take the stand. Mr. Hoehler, Congressman
Curtis will have the honor of interrogating you, sir.
TESTIMONY OF FEED K. HOEHLER, DIRECTOR, AMERICAN PUBLIC
WELFARE ASSOCIATION, CHICAGO, ILL.
Mr. Curtis. Mr. Hoehler, we are very glad you could get away
from the convention, or meeting, of which you are in charge, and
favor our committee with a statement.
You have a prepared statement, which will be inserted in our
record at this point and made a part of our hearings and carefully
analyzed by a number of people connected with this committee.
(The statement follows:)
STATEMENT OF FRED K. HOEHLER, DIRECTOR, AMERICAN PUBLIC
WELFARE ASSOCIATION
As one formerly engaged in the administration of a public welfare department
and a department of public safety, I have for some years had an interest in the
migrant problem. That interest came first because these migrants are people
and, second, because public agencies had some responsibility toward helping these
people meet their problems.
The migrant population of this country like some of our minority groups has
been subject to much abuse and misunderstanding. Migrants have been accused
of aimless and wasteful wandering, which honestly and in the final analysis
can only be boiled down to the problem of seeking a livelihood in the American
way. Men and families who reside in communities where the opportunities for
earning a livelihood have failed or disappeared, using their individual initiative,
start out to travel in search of new opportunities.
3465
3466
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
MIGRATION AN AMERICAN TRADITION
Migration is no new phenomenon. This Nation has subsidized it since the
early 1800's when settlement in the western States meant the expansion of the
American democracy and the development of our wealth and resources. The
early migration to this country from Europe, which was encouraged by those who
hoped to see the wealth and resources developed, the grants of land to home-
steaders, and similar grants to railroads for the development of the West, were
all early manifestations of the problem of migration.
In later years, farmers and industrialists have encouraged migration, first,
because labor was needed for new Industries and for harvesting crops, and
second, because it was thought desirable to increase the size of the labor market
when competitive bidding for man's labor came to be an important factor in
industry and agriculture.
HEAVY POPULATION MOVEMENTS
For over 10 years, one of my responsibilities in a midwestern city was the
operation of an agency for the care of so-called transients. In the 1920's, I saw
a small group of men and women moving from the southern States into the
northern industrial cities seeking employment. Some of these came as indi-
viduals or with small families in twos and threes. Others moved into our city
or through it in trains provided by commissary companiesi or employment agents
for industrial firms. In those days, this seemed natural and necessary because
industry was expanding and mechanical improvements in agriculture were
beginning gradually to reduce the need for manpower on the farm.
Later, in the early 1930's, this group increased, and still later, hordes of people
of all races and creeds from nearly every city and State passed through that city
of Cincinnati, Ohio. During that period I talked with thousands of men and
women who were migrating from one place to another. Some of them were
moving out in the search for jobs ; others were returning home discouraged and
despondent.
During the past 5 years I have had the opportunity to visit and talk with
migrantsi in their camps in California and have talked with others along the now
famous Highway 66, as well as on other roads of Texas and Arizona. In most
of those interviews and in the great majority of people whom I saw face to face,
I foiind a spirit of courage which we have always admired in America. Each
had the determination to improve his condition even at great personal sacrifice.
There also was the frequently expressed desire to be an integral part of the
American economy, which was producing great machines and automobiles,
building skyscrapers, and bringing labor-saving devices into the homes, the fields,
and the shops. If there were any difference between this group and those of us
who remained at home, it was merely that they had a greater spirit of adven-
ture and perhaps more physical courage than the rest of us.
ABSENCE OF UNIFORM SETTTLEMENT LAWS A FACTOR
Two factors played an important role in this migration. The first of these
was the emphasis on legal settlement, and the second was its social and eco-
nomic aspect. The administration of public relief to dependent people is
restricted in most States by legislative provisions which base eligibility for
assistance on the number of years the individual has spent in the community.
These provisions, known as settlement laws, had their genesis in the English
poor laws of the seventeenth century. These laws were directed at the control
of that dependency, which resulted from the break-down of the feudal system
and the subsequent growth of urban communities.
In this country during the past 2 decades there has been added emphasis
on settlement laws as a means of control of that type of dependency which
has grown out of population mobility.
In the United States legal settlement varies from the State laws which
provide no statutory basis for settlement either within the State or its juris-
dictions, to those States which provide as many as 5 years settlement within
a State before assistance is allowed. In some cases residence of from 6 months
to a year within a county of a particular State is required before that county
will assume responsibility for care and assistance.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3467
It can be seen, therefore, that the problem of public aid to the interstate
migrant is seriously aggravated by variation in the settlement laws of the
several States. There are many instances where a person may lose settlement
in one State before it is possible for him to gain settlement in another. This
leaves him in the exact position of a man without a country should he or
his family suddenly become ill or require some form of public aid. The un-
fortunate part about this is that those who are involved are usually unaware
of their change in status. When a man starts out in search of work, there is
no barrier at the State lines, or no warning that he is in imminent danger of
losing his settlement in one State when he passes into another. This aspect
of the problem is legal and will require the enactment or repeal of legislation
in a great many States before there can be uniformity in the treatment of
people who move from one State to another. In this regard our States have
become so "balkanized" that we are constantly at conflict in law as to who
should provide for hungry people.
SOCIAL ADJUSTMENTS FOUND DITFICULT
The social and economic aspects of the problem are those which are pre-
sented by the need for the mobility of labor throughout the entire Nation and
the need' for special migrant groups in certain parts of our country. People
move because they are encouraged to do so by advertisements from another
State in which work is promised, or there are those who in sheer desperation
move out to find a job. These may be the products of social maladjustment
or economic developments which are too vast and complicated for the average
individual to understand. It becomes an almost impossible task to explain
to the migrant from Oklahoma, "Tou are not wanted in California this year,"
when only a few years ago his friends and relatives were encouraged to
make the trek. In spite of warnings, he sets out to help meet a demand for
labor which he is convinced exists.
Another social phenomenon is the movement of people who are sick and in
need of a different climate to relieve suffering. It is the most natural thing
in the world for a person from the Ohio Valley to move into the Southwest
to relieve a sinus condition which has made it impossible for him to work.
There are some who claim that people move from one State where there
are no relief grants, or where there are meager or starvation grants, to
another State where the relief grants may be more generous. These, in my
experience, I have found constitute an extremely small group. This group
is small because most people who have had to exist on the ragged edge of
poverty for years are well aware of the fact that there is absolutely no
security in what we know as the public relief grant. A community which
provides $20 or $30 per month this year for relief families always faces the
uncertainty of legislative appropriations and the riddle of what will be the
number of those who are asking relief during the next year, as well as the
ever-present uncertainty of work programs provided by the Federal Govern-
ment. These facts are all well known to people who have themselves been on
relief, and it is too hazardous to leave a home and the place where they
have friends to go to a strange community in the hope that they may get
more adequate relief.
NATIONAL DEFENSE PEOGRAM AGGRAVATES PROBLEM
One of the most significant migrations of recent months is the movement of
thousands of individuals and families to the scores of new national-defense
centers which are being established all over the United States. While this migra-
tion has not yet reached alarming proportions a sufficient number have already
moved, and there are enough indications of future population shifts to warrant
considerable concern.
Members of the field staff of the American Public Welfare Association, in
their visits to a number of these newly created centers and to older centers
where there is increased activity, report a growing transient population and
adjustments in these communities affecting the welfare and security of the
entire community. In almost every one of the defense centers, small towns and
even larger cities are finding their vacant lots crowded with old and new
24(38 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
trailers ; small jails and even fire houses are crowded with men seeking work at
the new plants, and boarding houses and small hotels are filled to capacity.
In one of the small middle western towns to which over 8,000 new workers
commute every day, all local facilities established for a town of less than a
thousand are crowded beyond capacity. This influx of men has created housing,
health, and recreation problems in nearby larger urban centers. Local officials
in cities surrounding the defense-center town report increased traffic and other
police problems. When the construction projects at this new center are com-
pleted about 2,500 men will be replaced by an equal number of women who will
be employed at the plant, creating new and different welfare problems.
These typical problems exist on a larger or a smaller scale in each of the
defense centers where facilities do not exist, or are limited to take care of
the transients seeking work, or those who fail to hold their jobs because of the
very rigid physical examination. Complex problems will arise where they never
before existed. The incomplete framework of general relief services, inadequately
supported in many cases from local funds, makes it impossible to cope with the
emergency relief needs which have already been manifest and which will probably
multiply in the near future.
Present national-defense plans indicate that the defense projects at the various
centers will continue for a number of years. This development, like all others
in the past where there have been appreciable shifts in the location of industry
and economic activitly related to the concentration of large numbers of men,
results in a temporary crisis in family life for large numbers and continuing
problems for a somewhat smaller group. The problem of possible dependence is
only one of the many welfare problems which attend large-scale migi-ations.
SUGGESTIONS FOR LEGISLATION
A few elements in the present situation which must be considered in devolop-
ing legislation or administrative processes for helping to prevent unnecessary
migrancy are :
1. The dispossessed people who are moved off land which is purchased for
military or defense industry purposes.
2. The possible loss of some foreign markets and shift of others which will
mean a new dislocation of workers, both urban and rural.
3. The possibility of evacuation of areas for the protection of families who may
be subjected to the violence of attack from without or to the hazards of vul-
nerable industries subject to attack from within.
These elements produce situations of importance not only to the local com-
munity and to the State government, but of vital concern to the Nation's wel-
fare. No solution to the problem of migration can be found in the individual
States alone, or even in a regional plan. Migration is interstate in character,
and it is beyond the capacity of the States themselves to deal with it ade-
quately. The problem, viewed in all of its asjiects, is national in nature, and any
solution to it will require the leadership and participation of the Federal
Government.
Such a program of Federal leader.ship with State cooperation would include:
1. The abolition of State settlement laws, or at least the enactment of uniform
settlement laws in all States. The abolition of settlement laws is based on the
theory that for most States the relief burden would not be increased because
the number of dependents coming into a State would offset those going out.
It is obvious that the advantages of climate or living conditions in some States
would attract more people than would be attracted to other States. This may,
therefore, work a hardship upon a few areas unless it is accompanied by the
next step.
2. An adequate general relief program with Federal participation through
grants-in-aid to the States and Federal supervision of standards and methods of
administration. In any general relief program with Federal and State participa-
tion, there should be present at least two factors favorable to a solution of the
migrant problem. These are :
(a) More adequate relief standards in each State which would enable
people out of work to stay home and seek work in the community where they
have residence.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3469
(&) Special provision for care of the nonsettled person or of the migrant
group needed for seasonal work. This provision would come only through
a larger Federal share in the cost of care for such unsettled people.
3. A stronger and more effective employment service which would have the
full confidence of the employer and employee group. Such a service could
assist in the orderly flow of migrant labor and facilitate the placement of
workers needed in interstate employment. This, of course, must be a service
operated on a national basis, under Federal control.
In the local communities with State and Federal cooperation, there must be
more than mere lodging and subsistence for the transient group. Transient
centers in cities and counties should be equipped to provide medical examina-
tions and subsequent medical care for migrants who are found to be ill or
suffering from serious physical disabilities. Such transient centers should be
constantly in touch with employment agencies for the necessary clearance on
placement of i^ersonnel.
Finally there must be recognition of the need for united action among all
three levels of government — Federal, State, and local — in the care of distressed
people If our Nation is to defend its Institutions effectively against aggression.
TESTIMONY OF FRED K. HOEHLER— Resumed
Mr. Curtis. There are a few things I want to inquire about. In
the first place, I believe I will ask you to summarize, just briefly, the
point or points that you make in your prepared statement. Just
proceed in your own words.
Mr. HoEHLER. Briefly, what I have done in my statement is to
attempt to show that the migration problem is one which was not
born of this depression, or the depression which began in 1929, but
is a phenomenon which has been going on in this country for years,
because of the necessity of moving people for our industrial develop-
ment. And then its aggravation came in 1929, when great numbers
of people had to be moved.
I have also tried to make the point that at the present time, when
people are moving from one community to another in the defense
program, we find not only isolated instances but a number of occa-
sions when the so-called migratory problems have been increased
because people are flocking to defense areas.
MIGRANT PROBLEM REQUIRES FEDERAL LEADERSHIP
I have suggested, in the final analysis, this is a problem which
cannot be handled hj local communities or by the States ; it must be
by Federal leadership and Federal encouragement. And by "lead-
ership" I mean the Federal Government must enact legislation,
must set an example through that legislation for the kind of stan-
dards to be set in maintaining people who are moving about the
country as migi-ants. They must put funds into the care of people
throughout the country. And 1 am speaking in this memoranda
of a general relief problem, rather than a specific transient relief
problem ; because, after all, migrants are people, too, and should not
be too isolated or set aside from the population.
I am suggesting that the settlement laws might be revised; that
there might be some uniformity of settlement laws, and I have dis-
cussed very briefly the matter of the abolition, of settlement laws.
3470 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Curtis. At that point, do you recommend as the move to be
made at this time something toward uniformity, or the abolition of
settlement laws?
Mr. HoEHLER. My personal recommendation would be toward uni-
formity, to be brought about by some participation in the cost of
maintaining people throughout the country by the Federal Govern-
ment. Uniformity should be one of the bases, one of the qualifica-
tions on which the Federal Government would provide that help.
NEED FOR IMPROVED EMPLOYMENT SERVICE
Then I have suggested that the employment service needs strength-
ening. It needs to be more effective and efficient, and it can only
be that, I intimate, without much of an argument, if it is a Federal
employment system. There is too much lack of uniformity, too much
indifference on the part of some employment officials — State employ-
ment officials — to this problem which is national, because they have
their own State problems. A good national employment service oper-
ated from Washington in the States and localities could effectively
control some of the flow of migrant labor.
That, gentlemen, is a brief of the statement which I have presented.
Mr. Curtis. Mr. Hoehler, how long have you been engaged in
work of this sort?
Mr. HoEHLER. Well, I became the welfare director in the city of
Cincinnati back in 1926, Shortly after that, I became safety director
and also handled welfare problems. And in the welfare department,
in the early 1920's, we found some movement of population. It in-
creased through the late 1920's and 1930's.
POLICE PROBLEMS AND FIRE HAZARDS
As safety director, I had the police problem of handling migrants
who fell into the clutches of policemen, and tried to be just as humane
as possible, and to treat them with a little social service in connection
with our activities. And we also had a fire problem; because, inci-
dentally, while we do not hear much about it, a community which
grows up adjacent to large cities, either a trailer camp or small camp
that is built by migrants who come in looking for jobs, becomes
distinctly a fire problem, a fire hazard, to the community. And in
that work, for over 12 years, in the city of Cincinnati, I became
pretty well acquainted with some of the problems of the migrants
flowing from the South through the city of Cincinnati, which hap-
pened to be a bottleneck, to the industrial regions of the North. And,
since that time I have been engaged as national director of the na-
tional organization of welfare directors — the American Public Wel-
fare Association.
Mr. Curtis. And what is that association?
Mr. HoEHLER. The American Public Welfare Association is an as-
sociation of public officials engaged in welfare work. It was or-
ganized in 1930, when public welfare work around the country began
to increase its activities, and at that time the present commissioner
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3471
of agencies and institutions in the State of New Jersey was president
of the association. It has grown since then to rather a large organiza-
tion which engages only in attempting to increase the efficiency of
welfare directors, the administration of public welfare around the
country, and has a membership of about four or five thousand.
We have two organizations within the American Public Welfare
Association — one, tiie Association of State Public Welfare Officials;
and the other the Association of Local Public Welfare Officials. To-
day, at this very hour, 44 different State public-welfare officials are
meeting in a hotel in this city, and 200 local public-welfare officials,
discussing problems relating to this one in which your committee is
so vitally interested.
URGES UNIFORM SETTLEMENT LAW^S
Mr. Curtis. Now, you discuss in your paper and you have men-
tioned here the problem of settlement laws and say that you personally
favor a move toward uniformity. What do you have to suggest as
a means of bringing about that uniformity ?
Mr. HoEHLER. Well, as I travel around the country, and just to
qualify myself — I have been in 32 States since the first of this year
to spend 3 days or more at a time, and I would say that the thing most
needed to establish uniform settlement laws is a general relief program
in which the Federal Government and the States participate with
local conununities to provide assistance to people who are unemployed
and cannot find any assistance in the established categories under the
Social Security Act. Tliere are many States where no provision is
made for people who are hungry and homeless, except some surplus
commodities provided by the Federal Government. And that sounds
just like a couple of words when you talk about people being hungry and
homeless, but if you get into some of our southern States, particularly,
you will find, with a few exceptions — and the State of Alabama is a
notable exception — there is no provision for people who are not pro-
vided for either by the Work Projects Administration or under the
so-called social-security categories. As a result, those people are
hungry ; they are undernourished and are creating a definite national
problem.
GENERAL RELIEF SUGGESTED AS MIGRANT AID
Now, if general relief could be provided with Federal participation.
States like California, New York, and Illinois, where they have inad-
equate, but at least some, relief for people who are living in those
States, would not be so inclined to raise their residence laws to 3, 4,
or 5 years, which is the situation now in their attempt to keep so-called
migrants out of the State.
Mr. Curtis. Is a Federal transient program feasible without some
general program ?
Mr. HoEHLER. I would say it is not. In the first place, a Federal
transient program, operated as a Federal program in the local com-
munities, sets these people wdio are transients apart from the rest of
the population; when, as a matter of fact, the desirable thing is to
3472
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
integrate them into the population, to tie them to the soil, to give them
an opportunity to live somewhere, instead of isolating and setting
them aside as we would some particular category whom we fear in
the community. And I would much prefer, and I think inost of the
people who know this problem would, to have a general relief program
in which the Federal Government, the States, and the local communi-
ties all participate, operated either by the State or local community,
in which provision is made for all people, regardless of whether they
are residents or nonsettled people. And perhaps under that program
the Federal Government could offer certain inducements to States to
reduce the settlement laws, but at least to bring about uniformity of
settlement laws by providing some additional share in the cost of
maintaining nonsettled people.
Mr. Curtis. We have heard many witnesses discuss this problem
which you have discussed. What I am about to ask does not pertain
to your paper that you have prepared and I may be wrong in my
memory as to what the law is. In my own State of Nebraska, it is
my recollection it is the law that if there is someone hungry, who
needs either relief or medical care, or whatever the case may be,
certain local officials are not only bound to take care of them, but
they are guilty of a criminal act if they refuse to do so, regardless of
settlement laws. And then the recovery from the place where that
person belongs is followed up afterward, if it can be done; but the
first duty is to take care of those people. Now, that is more or less
a theoretical question in my State, because in my State the migration
of people has been outward ; our people have moved out of the terri-
tory and have become migrants elsewhere. But do you know whether
a similar provision of law prevails in any other State?
CHARGE-BACK SYSTEM OF RELIEF
Mr. HoEHLER. Oh, yes ; there are a number of States in which they
have a charge-back system. I operated under it. But it just does
not work. You cannot drag a county into jail; you cannot drag a
State into jail. You can bring them into court and get a judgment,
but it is another thing to try to collect on that judgment.
Mr. Curtis. I am not discussing so much the charge-back and the
recovery under it, but I am wondering does the operation of a law
that requires these officials to take care of those people, regardless of
the settlement laws — does that part of it work, in your experience?
Mr. HoEHLER. There are plenty of laws to that effect, but you
cannot have jails enough in the country to take care of the people
who violated that law. They violate it, just do not take care of them,
because the public officials do not have the money.
Mr. Curtis. They do not appropriate the money for that particular
purpose ?
Mr. HoEHLER. They do not appropriate the money for that particu-
lar purpose and, in many cases, they are completely indifferent to
whether people are suffering, or not. I say that not generally, but
I would refer, in the matter of indifference, to about 25 or 30 percent
of the local welfare officials around the country. There are a niim-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3473
ber of them elected; the township trustees are elected, and they are
not interested particularly in doing anything more than getting a
sufficient number of votes to put them into office at the next election.
And the funds which they have to use are extremely meager. There
is no record kept of any money which they use in my own State
of Ohio where I, for years, worked in connection with township
trustees. And, as a result, they are entirely careless about it and
many of them are indifferent to suffering. So that those laws are
not enforced.
Where they have a well-organized State department operating a
general relief program, as they have in New York State and one or
two other places, tliey do a pretty good job of taking care of people;
because they have State supervision of what the local authorities are
doing. And I think they would do even a better job if they had
Federal supervision of what the State authorities are doing.
RELIEF NOT A CAUSE OF MIGRATION
Mr. Curtis. Do you think there is anything to the statement that
is sometimes made that a wide difference in the amount of relief pro-
vided causes people to migrate? Do people leave one point and go
to another because of the possibility of more attractive relief?
Mr. HoEHLER. No; I do not believe there is anything in that. I
have argued it up and down the country. People who are on relief
recognize the complete insecurity of the relief gi-ant; they know that
next year the appropriation of the city council or the county super-
visors might not be made and they would be off of the relief rolls.
And that is true in California and in New York, just as it is in
Oklahoma or Arkansas. So ])eople are not induced to move to Cali-
fornia because the relief gi'ants in California have reached $30 or
$35 a month.
I went up and down the transient camps in California and talked to
people in the camps, and the outstanding characteristic of those
people was the desire for land. I do not think I talked to half a
dozen men, in the hundreds I saw-, who were not hungry for some
land which they could work, hungry for an opportunity to earn their
own living. They did not want relief ; they did not come to Califor-
nia for relief. That is true of those on Highway 66 and is true of
those I have seen in trucks leaving the Ozarks for the fields in Ohio
and Michigan. They are out to get jobs and not to get the relief
that Ohio and Michigan might give them.
AGRICULTURAL MIGRANTS IN ALASKA
Mr. Curtis. Now, the migration to Alaska, say, in the last 10 years,
and to California and the Pacific Northwest, has been largely of
people forced off of the land, has it not?
Mr. HoEHLER. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. They are people with that sort of a background?
Mr. HoEHLER. That is right.
Mr. Curtis. And that is what they want to adjust themselves to?
3474 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. HoEHLER. And a few small businessmen from the Dakotas
moved into the Northwest, moved to Washington and Oregon and
went out there to try their luck at raising crops on the land ; but, for
the most part, they were people \n1io were forced off of the land and
they were simply following the old trek that their neighbors followed
years before.
California has advertised pretty extensively for migrant workers
in the last decade, that is, the decade before this one, and still ad-
vertises. I have picked up advertisements from California and
Arizona along the highways, and found them in railroad stations —
those of farmers and farm organizations, advertising for men and
women to come to California to work in the crops in the field.
Mr. Parsons. You do not think any appreciable number went there
because of the climate, do you ?
Mr. HoEHLER. No; I say honestly they do not; because they go
up to the Northwest, too, where the climate is not too encouraging,
although it is better than it is in northern Michigan.
Mr. Curtis. There is another thing I would like to ask you, because
you are
Mr. HoEHLER. Might I finish my answer to that question?
Mr. Curtis Yes; pardon me.
Mr. HoEHLER. I would say when that man gets to be 50 or 60, or
a little over, he might seek a little better climate; but these fellows
I have seen on the road and in transient camps were 30 and 40. They
looked to be 50 and 60, but they were out to get jobs, not sunshine.
Mr. Parsons. Do they have plenty of sunshine always in Cali-
fornia ?
Mr. HoEHLER. They say they do.
Mr. Curtis. Do they withhold it from the unjust, or does it shine
on the just and the unjust alike?
Mr. Hoehler. Well, you would think so if you got into some of
those dismal camps; there is hardly any sunshine in them that gets
through these bleak buildings where they live.
ALL STATES SEND MIGRANTS TO CALIFORNIA
The Chairman. It is a peculiar thing, but a Congressman asked
me one day, "Where do you get all those people in California —
homeseekers and different people?" I said, "From every State in
the Union, but the most of them from your State, Congressman."
So in California there are people from every State in the Union.
Mr. Hoehler. If we are not just making conversation, I would
like to say it is true. I went out there with the idea they came from
Oklahoma and Arkansas, but in one camp I found people from 23
States, and more than a handful from the State in which I have
worked in public administration for nearly 15 or 20 years. They
would come, some of them, to seek jobs, some of them to start smad
businesses, and some of them hoping, after they got out there, there
would be another gold rush.
Mr. Curtis. It has been my observation, Mr. Hoehler, that each
one of the 48 States is thoroughly convinced that their financial
condition is the worst of them all. Is the American Public Welfare
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3475
Association in a position to furnish the committee with information
as to the relative ability of the various States to deal with this
problem of relief for their own citizens, as well as transients ?
Mr. HoEHLER. I am afraid we cannot. I wish we could. We can
give you the relative capacities, but I would not want to be put on
the witness stand as an expert to testify that our information is cor-
rect; because some tax expert, somebody who knew more about land
valuations than I do, could put me in a pretty hot spot. It is, how-
ever, Congressman, something that is needed in this country. If we
are ever going to help people on a national basis, we have to have
some knowledge of the capacity of the States to do that job them-
selves, and I am one of those fellows who believes we have to do it
on a variable grant basis. We cannot give the same amount of
money, the same percentage, to the richer States as we give to the
poorer States; because it means there will be a considerable amount
of disproportionate relief services and relief grants in the States
where they need it most.
RELATIVE ABILITY OF STATES TO MATCH RELIEF FUNDS
Mr. Curtis. Now, do you know of any group that is attacking that
problem, trying to arrive at a formula or definite answer as to the
relative ability of the States to match Federal funds or to provide
funds of their own for the general problem of relief?
Mr. HoEHLER. No; because it is a big job and a costly job. I
would say that maybe the Council of State Governments, as a part
of their program, might be dealing in accumulating such informa-
tion, but it may change in a short time. For instance, a southern
State which today is considered a rather poor rural State may all
of a sudden become an industrial State, because industry moves.
If our market shifts from Europe to South America, it is entirely
possible industries from New York and New England will move into
Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi, so that there would be a shift
in the set-up.
Any attempt to evaluate the capacity of States to provide for
their own needy people would have to be a continuous job; you
would have to re-evaluate every 4 or 5, or maybe every 10 years,
as they do for the census; but it is a job which will take a lot of
money and a lot of research, and should be done by the United
States Treasury Department in cooperation with each of the States.
Mr. Curtis. And we might be greatly surprised when it was
accurately determined ?
Mr. HoEHLER. I think you would. I think we all would, and I
think those who think they know something about it would be more
surprised than those who think they know the answers.
Mr. Parsons. Would you suggest the registration of all transients ?
Mr. HoEHLER. No, I would not.
Mr. Curtis. Now, has this defense program aggravated or lessened
the problem of moving people in interstate migration ?
Mr. HoEHLER. It has aggravated it.
Mr. Curtis. Has your association had any experience in any par-
ticular phase of this defense program?
260370— 41— pt. 9 2
3476 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
WELFARE ASSOCIATION INVESTIGATES DEFENSE MIGRATION
Mr. HoEHLER. Yes. We saw this new defense program and the
building of defense industries as a possible problem in the welfare
field ; so we sent some of our staff to visit a few of these communities.
One little community which has a population at the present time
of less than 900, had an influx of 8,000 to 10,000. Those people
were living on the roadsides, or in the fire stations or police stations,
or lock-ups — they were not police stations; you could not dignify
them by that term — sleeping in all sorts of places, many of them
in automobiles along the roadside. They came there to get jobs,
because a particular company had advertised they had positions,
and they are waiting there hoping those positions will materialize.
And that is true in every community where there has been a
large defense development and where there has been an Army
concentration.
Mr. Curtis. Could you furnish this committee with a copy of
that report?
Mr. HoEHLER. We can give you several reports — our staff reports.
They are field reports.
Mr. Curtis. We would be glad to have as many as you can
furnish.
Mr. HoEHLER. We will see that you get copies of all that infor-
mation.^
effect of nauon-wide migrant program
Mr. Curtis. Now, one more question: What would be the effect
of a Nation-wide program for migrants? Would it tend to cause
more migration, that is, would destitute persons tend to flock to
States of their choice, or remain home; or would it be an induce-
ment for them to return to their home? What is your opinion of
that, generally ?
Mr. Hoehler. If we had a Federal relief program, so that there
would be some degree of uniformity in the relief given in every
State and some provision to keep men from starving between jobs,
I think it would tend to stabilize our population and give the em-
ployment services an opportunity to locate people when a flow of
industrial workers seems necessary. As I say in this paper, more
adequate relief standards in each State would enable people out
of work to stay at home, because there would be some provision
for their care, and they could seek work in their home community,
in the community where they know people and where they have a
better opportunity to get a job, than in some conununity where
they had no acquaintance at all. And in such a program there
ought to be some provision for nonsettled people, so that the Federal
Government would reimburse to a greater extent such provision
for nonsettled people.
UPROOTED CITIZENS PREFER TO STAY HOME
Mr. Curtis. Now that portion of destitute people who have been
anchored at some place and have been dislocated — maybe the land
1 This material is lield in committee's files.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3477
resources have failed them; maybe a factory goes down, or sometliing
of that kind — ahnost universally their supreme desire is to get back
home, is it not ?
Mr. HoEHLER. Always.
Mr. Curtis. Where they have spent the most of their lives?
Mr. HoEHLER. Unless they find some sunshine or beautiful climate,
Avhere they would rather live.
Mr. Curtis. I mean if they are still objects of relief.
Mr. HoEHLER. Oh, yes.
Mr. Curtis. They want to get back into their old homes ?
Mr. HoEHLER. Let me give you some examples. We made a study,
spent 6 wrecks with our staff in Grundy County, Tenn. Grundy
County is a typical Appalachian county, a mining and lumbering
community. The lumber has been cut off and the mines have been
sealed. There are 11,000 people in that county, and 75 percent of
them on relief. Most of them did not have enough money to buy an
old automobile and get out and look for jobs, and those that did drift
back as soon as the mines open up, as soon as there is an opportunity.
Now the mines are opening up and they are working part time in one
section of the county, and they have brought back some of the miners.
They are anxious to come back to their home conununity, to the place
where they have their roots and to the place where they own a little
parcel of land, and they could operate that land if they had an oppor-
tunity to supplement their farm earnings by a job. And the most of
them need it, because most of the land is barren and almost useless,
and they need some kind of cash income to keep them alive.
Mr. Curtis. Well, there is a group, and I do not know how large,
who prefer to wander around. In years of prosperity they found
jobs, but they worked in one place for a while and then worked some
place else, and so on. It may be that we need that group, but my
question at this time is, what percent of the so-called transients really
prefer to become located and work out their future in some place
where they can do so?
migration not prompted by wanderlust
Mr. HoEHLER. That is a difficult question to answer unless I had
our records before me. Take, for example, the trip I took over the
famous Highway 66: Most of the people that I talked to were people
who would have stayed where they were that night, and would have
located if there were any jobs for them.
As a matter of fact, the people in some of the roadside camps are
out looking for jobs. They want work. They don't have the wander-
lust. There is no encouragement to wander if you have to put all of
your belongings on top of a Ford car, and camp at night along the
road. They would rather stay at some place if they could get work.
I do not know the percentage, but certainly, of those in the camps I
saw in California, less than 25 percent were people of the regular
migrant group needed in California. The rest of them were people
who came in from the 23 States I saw represented in one camp.
Wherever they could find some place in California where they could
3^Y8 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
tie down to the land, the majority of them wanted to do that. Thej^
wanted to be on the land, with 2 acres or 10 acres, or enough to keep
the family on, where they could make enouoh to live on.
Mr. CuETis. From the experience you have had, and your vast
knowledge of this situation, you have given this committee a valu-
able statement which we appreciate, because we are interested in the
relief of these people as well as in some suggestions looking to a
long-time program covering these things that would stabilize the
population.
I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
SUGGESTS NEW SOCIAL SECURITY CATEGOKY
The Chairman. I want to ask one question: Mr. Ryan, of the
American Red Cross, made a very interesting statement to the com-
mittee the other day. He suggested that there be an additional
category in the Social Security Act to cover this migrant problem.
In other words, millions of them now are going from State to
State, and they have no status whatever. They are homeless and
they are Stateless, and they are kicked around in a way which, of
course, endangers the morale of our people. In view of that, what
would you suggest?
Mr. HoEHLER. I think I would go Mr. Ryan one better: I would
say that there should be another category under the Social Security
Board to provide for general relief for all people. In administering
that category, the Federal Government might say to a State like
California, or to any State that may have a large transient problem,
"We will provide additional support for all nonsettled people"; or
the Federal Government might provide 100 percent of the cost of
the support of nonsettled people, with another percentage of the
cost for the support of regular residents of the States.
Mr. Sparkman. Your recommendations are for an adequate gen-
eral relief program with Federal participation through grants-in-aid
to the States and Federal supervision of standards and methods of
administration. Then you say there should be present at least two
factors favorable to a solution of the migrant problem; first, more
adequate relief standards in each State which would enable people
out of work to stay home and seek work in the community where
they have residence, and, second, special provision for care of the
nonsettled person or of the migrant group needed for seasonal work.
You say this provision would come only through a larger share in
the cost of care for such unsettled people. Now, this is what I want
to ask you: How would you provide for grants-in-aid to the States?
Would you have them made on the same basis as now, or under the
same social security provisions now made for the making of grants-
in-aid to the States?
state aid on basis of need proposed
Mr. Hoehler. I would make them on the basis of need, so that the
States where the greater need is indicated would have the greater
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3479
share of support from the Federal Government. If we did that, I
think the Federal Government could then encourage some of the
poorer States to raise their standards of relief. Some of the States
that participate in Federal funds for the aged and for dependent
children, and so forth, make pretty miserable grants. They make
miserable grants to the people who are participants in that program.
The reason for such low grants is because the States claim, and I
think that is true in many cases, that they do not have sufficient re-
sources to provide their share. If there was a law providing for
larger grants to the more needy States, or a larger share borne by the
Federal Government, they would be enabled to have higher standards
of assistance. That would be helpful to the morale and would be
a powerful influence in any program for the national defense.
Mr. Sparkman. Of course, you know that the present Congress in-
creased the amount of aid to $20 per month, but that was a futile
gesture, because I think only one State was even allowing as much
as $15, and that was the State of California.
Mr. HoEHLEK. That is not the answer. The answer is for the
Federal Government to raise its share.
Mr. Curtis. Oftentimes local relief is classified or made up in
several categories, and they would select the category which has the
larger share of Federal money rather than one that is almost entirely
made up from local funds. How would you prevent that sort of
difficulty?
Mr. HoEHLER. I would prevent it by providing Federal assistance
in all categories. In the long run, such a program would be less
costly. The present difficulty is that the Federal Government takes
care of the aged and takes care of children in homes where the mother
has been widowed. One reason why people are unable to support
themselves when they attain the age of 65 is that because for years they
have been living in poverty. They have no encouragement socially,
and the reason so many fathers die of tuberculosis is because of some-
thing else that was brought about by undernourishment and poverty.
In the long run, a program for taking care of everybody who needs
assistance from the State on some basis would cost the Government
less money. We are now taking care of certain privileged groups
under Work Projects Administration, and we are leaving millions
of people out of consideration. Then, as those millions of people
accumulate, the cost to the Federal Government, the State govern-
ment, and the local governments, will greatly increase in years to
come.
Mr. OsMERS. Has your association made any studies with refer-
ence to a comparison of the benefits of work relief with those of
direct relief ?
Mr, HoEiiLER, We have, but I would not say that it is a profound
one. It is the kind of study that we make when we go from place to
place and get information from people. It is based upon information
from people who have natural human prejudices about work relief
and direct relief, but I think these studies compare favorably with
other studies that have been made on the subject.
2^gQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mi\ OsMERS. In your opinion, does it form a solution of the
problem ?
Mr. HoEHLER. I would rather give a man a job than relief, but you
cannot give jobs to all men under Work Projects Administration.
There are not enough projects to provide work for everybody. In
the second place, many people who ask for relief are unemployable,
and they are unfavorable because they have been living so long on
the ragged edge of poverty that they have lost the normal or proper
attitude toward work, and have lost the work capacity to stand up
under any decent job.
UNFAVORABLE RELIEF CONDITIONS
Mr. OsMERS. Have you made any comparison between the cost of
work relief and the cost of direct relief ?
Mr. HoEHLER. In dollars and cents, work relief is more costly, be-
cause you have to provide a wage which is comparable: to the job
done, and you have got to provide materials. However, in the final
analysis, I think work relief is cheaper because you have some invest-
ment from the work done, and you have more skill retained or work
habits retained in the individuals who have done the job.
Mr. OsMERS. One of the unfavorable conditions we have found
within the borders of my own State has been the disparity between
the amount of money received by a man for Work Projects Ad-
ministration work, with 15 days' work per month, and the direct
State and municipal relief which we pay, and which we make as
large as we can, but that frequently runs down to the matter of
groceries. The disparity has caused some difficulty, discontent, and
dissatisfaction among the various groups.
Mr. HoEHLER. Yes, sir; I know what that is. In 17 or 18 States,
this disparity is from about $30 or $40 down to zero under the
general relief program.
Mr. OsMERS. The average in New Jersey, I think, is $25 that a
family would receive for direct relief, and it would be about $55 for
work relief.
Mr. HoEHLER. You will find that differential among the States.
The Chairman. If there is nothing further, we thank you very much
for your statement. Your prepared statement will appear in the
record.
TESTIMONY OF HUBERT R. GALLAGHER, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR,
COUNCIL OF STATE GOVERNMENTS, CHICAGO, ILL.
Mr. Parsons. Will you state your name, address, and the organiza-
tion you represent, for the record?
Mr. Gallagher. My name is Hubert K. Gallagher, assistant di-
rector. Council of State Governments, 1313 Sixtieth Street, Chicago,
111.
Mr. Parsons. The statement you have submitted will be inserted
in the record at this point.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3481
STATEMENT OF HUBERT R. GALLAGHER, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR,
COUNCIL OF STATE GOVERNMENTS, CHICAGO, ILL.
Uniform Settlement Laws
This statement is directed especially to the experience which various States
and their legislative commissions have had in handling the problem of tran-
sients and in seeking to unify their settlement laws.^ Legislative commissions
in cooperation with the Council of State Governments called a conference of
some 21 States east of the Mississippi River which convened in Trenton, N. J.,
on March 6-7, 1936, for the purpose of considering problems having to do
with transient relief and uniform settlement laws.
The principal reason for calling the conference was to consider the plight
of some 275,000 transients who, having been deprived of Federal relief since
September 1935 had been denied State public assistance by reason of the "strict,
arbitrary, and motley technicalities of legal settlement." The Federal Emer-
gency Relief Administration up until September 1935 had been spending $4,000,-
000 a month for their support, but since that time public indifference,
intercommunity jealousies, and reprisals had left the transients to shift for
themselves with resultant liardship and human suffering. The 1936 conference
went on record, by unanimous adoption of resolutions, urging: First, that the
Federal Government accept inunediate responsibility for the relief and employ-
ment of transients, and that this relief and employment be made effective
through permanent departments of State government and coordinate local units
of administration with funds made available by the Federal Government on a
grants-in-aid basis.
Second, that the several States be urged to liberalize their laws so as to
make possible their cooperation with the Federal Government in the financing
and administration of relief to transients on the proposed grants-in-aid prin-
ciple ; and
Third, that all efforts be made to bring about uniformity of legal-settle-
ment laws between the several States, and that legislation be encouraged
which would provide for reciprocal agreements between groups of two or
more States for the purpose of bringing about uniformity of practice by agree-
ment as between the cooperating States.
LEGISLATTJEES FAII^D TO UNIFY SETTLEMENT LuVAVS
At the conclusion of the meeting a "Continuing Committee" of 15 was ap-
pointed composed of representatives of a majority of the States at the con-
ference. As a member, and later as secretary of this committee, I had an
opportunity to become acquainted with the problem during the next 2 years.
The committee participated in national conferences held by the American
Public Welfare Association and the Council of State Governments in Wa.sh-
ington, and in the Midwest Transient Conference held in Minnesota. Thus
considerable public attention was called to the problem, State legislatures me-
morialized Congress, but when it came to lowering residence requirements
the legislators sat on their hands. There was always some reason why the
settlement laws shouldn't be uniform. In fact, by calling so much attention
to the problem, members of the committee actually became fearful that State
legislatures would look around and decide maybe if some States had 5-year
settlement laws, why shouldn't they? Even New Jersey found some reason
for retaining its 5-year period, and during this period Colorado, Delaware,
Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Minnesota, and Pennsylvania tightened their
requirements.
RECIPROCAL SETTLEMENT AGREEMENTS ADOPTED
In 1937 the committee continued its woi'k and was responsible for the
adoption of an enabling act by some of the eastern legislatures (New York,
1 Settlement laws have a twofold purpose : First, that of setting up qualifications or
conditions of eligibility for public assistance; and second, the fixing of responsibility for
such public assistance upon the locality wherein there has been a compliance with the
qualifications.
3482 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Rhode Island, Vermont) which authorized "Reciprocal Agreements" providing
for the acceptance, transfer, and support of persons receiving public aid in
other States.
During the same year the General Assembly of the Council of State Govern-
ments at which 250 representatives from 46 States and the District of Colum-
bia were in attendance unanimously urged :
(1) That uniform settlement laws be enacted providing for:
(a) A period of 1 year's residence as a requirement for gaining settlement.
(b) A provision for the retaining of settlement in one State until a new
one is acquired in another.
(c) Relief and sei'vice to unsettled persons in accordance with the local
standards of relief, wherever they may be found in need, and until such time
as the necessary investigations regarding settlement are completed.
id) Vesting in the State department of ijublic welfare the power to deter-
mine the final decision as to the retention of an unsettled person in the State
or the return of such person to his place of legal residence.
(e) Authorization of State departments of public welfare or the corresponding
agency to reimburse the local units for the costs of relief and service given to the
person without legal settlement.
if) Authorization of State departments of pviblic welfare or the corre-
sponding agency to provide relief and service for transients — interstate and
intrastate — as an integral part of the general relief and service department.
(2) That the Third General Assembly recommend the adoption of the Uni-
form Transfer of Dependents Act, and urge the application of the principle of
reciprocal agreements between groups of two or more States having adequate
laws to encourage uniformity of practice between the cooperating States.
(3) Tliat the Third General Assembly urge the Congress of the United States
to develop the necessary legislation and make appropriations to take care
of the problems of the transient, the needy stranded migratory laborer, and
other unsettled persons through grants-in-aid to the States on the basis of
certain basic requirements.
At the end of 1937, some 16 States required more than a year's residence
for settlement. Some progress has been made since that time, but not much.
INTERSTATE COMPACTS PROPOSED
It is true that several of the States have passed the Uniform Transfer of
Dependents Act, providing for administrative agreements for the benefit of
transients unable to i-eceive aid because of "nonsettlement," but due to the
diversity of their settlement requirements, few States have carried out any
reciprocal agreements under the authority of this type of enabling act.
Such agreements depend, as has already been pointed out, on uniformity of
State settlement laws. The States should look to the time when they would agree
to act as agents for any other State in administering assistance where the two
States concerned may agree that it is to the advantage of the person receiving public
assistance to receive such assistance in a State other than the one providing the
funds therefor. It has also been proposed that this problem might be resolved
through the adoption by the States of a simple interstate compact which would
provide that no person shall lose a settlement in the State of his origin until he has
gained one somewhere else, and that no person shall gain a settlement in the State
of his destination within a shorter period or under lesser circumstances than a
resident from that State of destination would have required to gain a settlement in
the State from which the first transient migrated.
FEDERAL COOPERATION ADVISED
After careful consideration of the problem it is my conviction that the transient,
the commuting worker, can best be handled through the cooperation of the Federal
Government. With settlement laws in such a chaotic state, few States are
equipped financially or administratively to aid with relief of transients ; as a
result transients are shuttled back and forth from place to place. Localities
are not willing to assume the burden, nor do the States have the financial resources
to provide assistance. Transients thus have no legal settlement. Transfers from
State to State are frequently impossible because the States have no authority to
make the transfer and the locality will not assume the burden ; thus those who
might work elsewhere are held back by fear of losing settlement.
INTERSTATE INIIGRATION 3483
Reports of commissions affiliated with the Council of State Government have
pointed out that a Federal grant-in-aid program would assist the States financially
and bring about a measure of order out of this present diversity of settlement-
law requirements. The administration and supervision of local programs of
transient relief should be left to the States within a Federal framework. The
States could be made to realize their responsibility for the transient and could
be aided in carrying out this assistance on a more adequate and uniform basis.
The conditions for grants-in-aid might include provisions for : A 1-year settle-
ment law; a provision for the maintenance of settlement in the localities for
material and service relief until legal settlement is acquired ; a provision that final
questions of settlement should be decided by the State department of welfare;
and provisions for the transfer and assistance of indigent persons, and for adequate
standards of uniformity. The transient program, of course, will not succeed
unless there is a larger general Federal program of relief with grants-in-aid to
the States.
With such a program, the States would be in a position to bring about adequate
transient relief and greater uniformity of settlement laws more effectively and
in less time than could the States acting individually and separately.
TESTIMONY OF HUBERT R. GALLAGHER— Resumed
Mr, Parsons. We thank you for your statement. I think it is a
very interesting document. I want to ask you a few questions in con-
nection with your statement. I have been somewhat familiar with
the Council of State Governments for a good many years, and I think
the council is doing an excellent piece of work.
TREND AW^AY FROM UNIFORM SETTLEMENT
In connection with the recommendations that the assembly made
in 1937, with reference to uniform settlement laws, what would you
say has been the trend in the various States during the last few years
in that direction?
Mr, Gallagher. I would say that the trend, instead of being in the
direction of uniformity, has been the other way. At the time of the
general assembling in 1937, there were about 20 States that had l^year
settlement laws, and since that time I think that the number of States,
instead of coming down to 1-year settlement laws, has gone up. We
have found that a number of States are raising their settlement laws
from 1 year to 3 years and 5 years. At the general assemblage held
at Trenton, N, J., delegations from 26 States were in attendance.
This conference also recommended uniform settlement laws, and at
the time a continuing committee was set up by the States confer-
ence. I was a member of that committee and was made secretary
of it. We did everything we could to work for the passage of uni-
form settlement laws in the States. I thus had an opportunity to
become acquainted with the problem during the next 2 years. The
coirunittee participated in national conferences held by the American
Public Welfare Association and the Council of State Governments
in Washington and in the Midwest Transient Conference held in
Minnesota. Considerable attention was called to the problem, and
State legislatures memorialized Congress on the subject, but when it
came to the lowering of residence requirements the legislators sat on
their hands, and there was always some reason given why the settle-
Q^g4 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
ment laws should not be uniform. In fact, by calling so much atten-
tion to the i^roblem, the members of the committee became fearful that,
instead of promoting uniformity, there would be greater variation in
the laws on the subject of settlement. In other words, some State
might decide to have a 5-year settlement law because some other State
had it.
Mr. Parsons. You are a resident of the State of Illinois?
Mr. Gallagher. Yes, sir.
STATES RAISE SETTLEMENT REQUIREMENTS
Mr. Parsons. Illinois raised its settlement period from 3 to 5 years.
Do you recall the reason given for the legislature taking such
action ?
Mr. Gallagher. No, sir ; I do not. I presume it might be due to
the fact that other States had provided such a period of residence.
At the same time Florida, Delaware, Indiana, Kansas, and Penn-
sylvania changed their periods from 1 to 3 or 5 years.
Mr. Parsons. I questioned Mr. Neil R. Jacoby, chairman of the Illi-
nois Emergency Relief Administration, with reference to that point at
the time of our hearings in Illinois, and I found out that neither the
commissioner, the Governor, nor the mayor of Chicago had made
any such recommendation.
But in some way the members of the State legislature got the idea
that, because Illinois was paying quite a substantial amount for relief,
many transients were coming into the State for the purpose of ob-
taining relief. They had the idea that they were coming there from
other States. Now, do you think that the legislatures of other States
have raised their settlement law requirements for the reason that
they believe they have been enticing these migrants to come into
those States?
Mr. Gallagher. I think that is probably true. I know that our
conference brought out that fact as to some. That was the reason
in the case of Pennsylvania, and I dare say it was the same in the
case of Delaware.
Mr. Parsons. We have had this question up at every place where
we have conducted hearings. We have found one school of thought
that favored the abolition of settlement laws, while another school
of thought was in favor of uniform laws. Now, what would be your
objection to the elimination of settlement laws entirely ?
Mr. Gallagher. Personally, I would have no objection to that.
I have not heard that suggestion made at the conferences that have
been held, and we are still working for uniform laws. We have
tried memorializing the legislatures, and the Conference has been in
favor of a uniform 1-year settlement law, but it has met with no
success in that. Then we tried proposing a uniform reciprocal agree-
ment, trying to achieve some agreement among the States on that
basis, but we did not get very far with that. In fact, only three
States have passed enabling legislation for that^ — New York, Rhode
Island, and, I think, Vermont, were the States.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3485
INTERSTATE COMPACTS ON SETTLEMENT
Then, we come to the recent conference proposal of a simple inter-
state compact which w^onlcl provide that no person shall lose a settle-
ment in the State of his origin until he has gained one somewhere
else, and that no person shall gain a settlement in the State of his
destination within a shorter period or under lesser circumstances
than a resident from that State or destination would have required
to gain a settlement in the State from which the transient first mi-
grated. Of course, this interstate compact, even if it had the approval
of State legislatures, would have to be drafted. It would have to
go back to the legislatures of the several States to be ratified, and
then you would have to get the consent of Congress. That process
might take anywhere from 3 to 5 years.
Mr. Parsons. What would be your recommendation as to the
length of time required for settlement?
Mr. Gallagher. I think it should be 1 year.
Mr. Parsons. You state there in the resolution that you are read-
ing from that a citizen would still be a citizen of the State of his
origin until he had acquired citizenship in another State, or after 1
year's residence or, at least, that he should retain his citizenship in
his State of origin until he had lived a sufficient time to acquire settle-
ment in the State of his destination ?
ISIr. Gallagher. Yes, sir.
Mr. Parsons. Do you think that the States will ever initiate this
sort of program themselves?
Mr. Gallagher. Well, it is a difficult problem, and we have been
working at it for many years.
Mr. Parsons. You have been working at it for how many years?
Mr. Gallagher. I would say certainly for 5 years. We feel that
we have achieved less success 'in this program than in any we have
undertaken.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, Congress cannot fix the settlement laws
of the various States unless we have a Federal-aid program. Then
we might set up certain qualifications that the States must observe
in order to obtain the grants-in-aid. We might do it in that way.
Mr. Gallagher. I think that probably should be done.
advocates state TRANSIENT RELIEF ADMINISTRATION
Mr. Parsons. In your statement you advocate that the administra-
tion of the provision for transient relief should be left in the States.
Do you think that a federally administered program would be
feasible?
Mr. Gallagher. On the basis of my attendance at the conferences,
especially the relief conference held during this year, I would say
that a federally administered program probably would not work,
because you would have confusion and duplication of administration
in the States. I think you would find that the States would fight
such a program. I found that at almost all of the conferences the
State authorities felt that they should have the administration and
3486 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
supervision of it. I think they agreed that probably Federal stand-
ards were necessary, and I think that qualification should be made.
Personally, I would recommend Federal standards of administration
and supervision.
Mr. Parsons. Leaving to the local authorities of the States the
administration of it?
Mr. Gallagher. Yes, sir. I think that they would be better
qualified in the local organizations. I think that many of these
people would go out and get jobs provided you had a proper transient
system.
Mr. Parsons. Are you familiar with our system in Illinois for the
administration of direct relief?
Mr. Gallagher. I am not qualified to speak on that subject, but
I know generally how it has worked.
Mr. Parsons. They have anywhere from 1,400 to 1,500 Govern-
ment agencies administering direct relief within the State of Illinois.
In the county there is only 1 unit head, but in a county in which you
have county township organizations, and where there are perhaps 20
townships in the county, you have 20 different agencies handling
relief. That is a very costly process. Now, you make the statement
here in your paper that you think it is necessary for the Federal
Government to step into this picture of relief, and that a great deal
of administrative cost could be eliminated if, with the present sys-
tem of the various States of the Union, the Federal Government
should set up certain standards. That is, it would not actually
administer the relief itself, but would rather keep in touch with it,
or have a veto power. It would have a veto over the action of others,
rather than supervise the work itself. Upon what idea do you
think that the Federal Government should participate in the direct
relief system of the States?
Mr. Gallagher. I think there should be a general Federal program
of relief, and that it should be on the grants-in-aid basis. I think
that you should have Federal standards of administration. I think
that such a program would work well. Of course, the transient
would be taken care of under a general Federal program.
Mr. Parsons. Would you have the Federal Government grant
additional aid because of transients within a State, basing it upon
numbers or need ?
Mr, Gallagher. I do not feel qualified to make a statement on
that. I think the transient should be handled the same way as any
other recipients of relief. Otherwise, I am afraid that you will
have competition between the States, and you will get back to the
situation that has caused the problem.
Mr. Parsons. If we eliminated the settlement laws, with the Fed-
eral Govermnent participating in the program, in all the States where
transients might happen to be, do not you think that we might
happen to have considerable numbers of people who would get ready
to see America first in order to obtain relief as transients?
Mr. Gali^gher. If you had a general program of relief, you would
have uniform standards applying throughout the country, and I do
not think that would be any incentive to travel around the country,
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3487
or to see Americca first. If there were a reserve of funds to afford
sufficient relief, or to give work that would help to take care of it,
there would be no need for him to become a transient. He would
have more opportunity to work or opportunity to obtain work in his
own locality. I realize that there is seasonal work, and that they
must keep moving around. That is where the worker is needed to
work in harvesting fruits, vegetables, and so forth, and I think the
worker should be permitted to travel in those areas.
Mr. Parsons. What percentage of the cost of direct relief of tran-
sients should be borne by the Federal Government if we should have
a Federal program along that line?
Mr. Gallagher. Of course that would be up to Congress.
Mr. Parsons. What should that be, in your opinion ?
]\Ir. Gallagher. I think 50-50 might work.
]\Ir. Parsons. The same as is provided for in the present social-
security law?
Mr. GALLiVGHER. Ycs, I think that probably would work. You
might try variable grants, although there you might get into a great
deal of difficulty with com]:)etition between States. The larger States
always object to the variable-grant program.
STATES SHOULD SHARE IN TRANSIENT RELIEF
I think the States themselves should share in this program, and I
think some consideration should be given by the Congress to the
returns from taxation within the States.
For instance, during the past year State tax revenues have in-
creased 7 percent over last year, and they have increased 9 percent
over 1937. Congress might take that into consideration in w^orking
out a grants-in-aid basis. If State taxes are bringing in considerable
money States would be better able to pay for their share of relief.
Mr. Parsons. You have given a great deal of thought to the study
of governments. What agency of the Federal Government should
this administrative work be lodged in, if we favored and provided
for a Federal-aid program ?
Mr. Gallagher. It was not the unanimous opinion of the confer-
ences, but it was agreed to by a number of delegates that possibly
another category should be added to the social-security program,
that this general relief program might be number 4 in the social-
security set-up. I think that would be satisfactory.
Mr. Parsons. Do you think we will ever have all of our people
back in private employment again, the old, the young, and the midclle
aged ?
Mr. Gallagher. I think we will get fairly close to it, but you will
always have a certain number of unemployables whom you cannot
find work for.
But it is my personal opinion that if this defense program moves
along there will be employment for almost every one.
5IACHINERY DISPLACES EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Parsons. Of course, this problem has become quite acute, first,
because of the depression beginning in 1929, when agriculture had
3488
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
been depressed ever since 1920. But labor displacing machinery has
also played a part in the unemployment problem, has it not?
Mr. Gallagher. That is certainly true.
Mr. Parsons. I saw an article not long ago, a study of unemploy-
ment and machines, which stated that in the last 10 years, since the
depression started, machinery had displaced, on an average, on the
farms and in industry, 31.2 percent of the former employees.
There is more production of any and every kind in America today
than there ever has been at any time, except during the other World
War days, and yet we have millions of people still unemployed.
With the trend still in the direction of labor-displacing machinery,
can we ever expect to put all of our people to work in private indus-
try or private employment?
Mr. Gallagher. Perhaps not, and certainly not during ordinary
times. That would only be possible in the case of a tremendous
defense program, and even then it may be doubted if that would put
everyone to work,
Mr. Parsons. You think then that this problem is at least, in part,
a national problem?
Mr. Gallagher. Yes, indeed ; I certainly do.
Mr. Parsons. All of the destitute migrants did not have their
origin in the Dust Bowl?
Mr. Gallagher. No.
Mr. Parsons. They have been found in every large town and
community in the country ?
Mr. Gallagher. Indeed they have.
COST or FEDERAL PARTICIPATION
Mr. Parsons. Have you ever thought about how much money it
might take for the Federal Government to participate in such a
program ?
Mr. Gallagher. I realize it would be considerable. I have heard
the statement made that it might cost at least $500,000,000. I have no
facts or figures to back that up, but I have heard that statement made.
The Chairman. Concerning your reference to the 50-50 matching
proposition in relation to the migration problem, this thought has
occurred to me — and, of course, we are expressing no opinion one way
or the other, until we file our final report, but we do have some ideas
about this subject, — for instance, during the last 5 years, 895,000
people have gone to California, my State, and 493,000 are destitute
migrants. Suppose the 50-50 proposition were in effect. California
is the only State in the Union which matched the old-age pension
payment of $15, and the State is in debt. If the State had to also
provide the money for matching the payments to transients or
migrants, it probably would be unable to do it now.
Take the State of "Mississippi, for instance. It seems that the pay-
ment of $2.25 for old-age assistance grants is the best that State can
do. I think you see what I am trying to get at.
Mr. Gallagher. It would work a hardship on California, probably.
The Chairman. Yes, but all the States are pressed now. As indie-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3489
ative of that fact, none of them, outside of California, can come up
to the $15 mark. I wanted to get that in the record as a statement or
fact, because it shows what the situation is.
Mr. Parsons. I want to correct the record in reference to that matter,
Mr. Chairman. Illinois has raised its pension amount to $40, but it
is not paying a uniform rate to every recipient, and I doubt if
California is.
STATES CLAIM FINANCIAL INABILITT
Mr. Curtis. Will the Chairman yield to me for a moment?
The Chairman. Certainly.
Mr. Curtis. I would like to ask the witness this question : Does it
follow from the fact that Mississippi pays only $2.25 a month to an
aged person and California pays $20 indicate a relative ability to raise
the money? Do you think it does?
Mr. Gallagher, Personally, I think Mississippi ought to pay more,
but I think probably relative ability would be figured on the per
capita income of the people of the State, and I would say probably
on that basis California would be in a better position to pay it than
Mississippi would, but whether it is on the basis of $15 to $1, 1 do not
know, but I doubt if it is. I think that probably the Mississippi
amount is way too low.
Mr. Curtis. As I stated, in asking the previous witness a question,
all of these States contend that, financially, each is worse off than any
of the other 47. But my observation on this point has been that as
to the States paying a small amount, it necessarily follows that that
is the measure of their ability.
Mr. Gallagher. I think that is correct.
Mr. Curtis. I think probably the sentiment and the standards of
the people have been the controlling factors in the States which pay a
high amount, as well as in the States that pay a low amount.
Mr. Gallagher. I think that is true. That is why you have this
competition of people going on relief in States that pay more.
EMPLOYMENT FOR ALL IMPOSSIBLE
The Chairman. In reference to a question asked here by Mr, Par-
sons, as to whether you think the time will come when people will all
be employed in private industry, of course I doubt, myself, that we
will ever reach that point.
I might call your attention, in that connection, to some figures re-
leased by some insurance companies the other day. I do not recall
which insurance companies they were, but they were very interesting
to me.
They made a survey — I forget how many insurance companies there
were — but they found, taking policy holders at the age of 25 years —
this is the general average — that when they reached the age of 64, out
of 100 policyholders, 54 were dead, 36 were living on public or ])rivate
charity, or with their relatives, and 5 were employed, 4 were well-to-do,
and one was rich. In my opinion, those are very startling figures.
3490
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
I guess that probably when we understand those figures we can do
bettei* with the migrant problem than we are doing now.
We thank you very much for your statement.
TESTIMONY OF RT. EEV. JOHN A. EYAN, D. D., EEPRESENTING THE
NATIONAL CATHOLIC WELFARE CONFERENCE, WASHINGTON,
D. C.
The Chairman. The next witness is Msgr. John A. Ryan.
You are here, Monsignor, representing the National Catholic Wel-
fare Conference?
Monsignor Ryan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I want to say to yon, Monsignor, that this commit-
tee, after the resolution passed the House of Representatives— and this
will show you that we considered this was a national problem— started
in New York, with our hearings, where Mayor LaGuardia was our
first witness. He agreed, as I recall, that it is a national problem.
Then we went to Montgomery, Ala. ; then to Chicago ; then to Lin-
coln, Nebr.; Oklahoma City; and San Francisco and Los Angeles,
Calif. . ^ . ^ ^ .
We think we have aroused this Nation to the seriousness ot this
problem. . -, -, ,
I want to say to you also, Monsignor, that this committee, although
composed of Republicans and Democrats, has never considered this a
political question. I am very proud of this committee and the al)ility
the members have shown in the consideration of this subject.
The committee has received your prepared statement and it will
be placed in the record at this point.
(The statement is as follows:)
STATEMENT BY RT. REV. JOHN A. RYAN, D. D.
I am here at the request of and in place of the Right Reverend Monsignor
Michael J. Ready, general secretary of National Catholic Welfare Conference,
who was formally invited to testify hefore thiy committee. The members of
Congress who are responsible for creating the committee and the members of
the 'committee itself deserve the very highest praise for this initial endeavor
to grapple with one of the most urgent and difficult social and economic prob-
lems confronting the American people.
Three preliminary propositions may be laid down with considerable confi-
dence: First, migrancy cannot be abolished as an institution, for there will
always be a large number of persons, mostly young and unmarried, desiring to
leave home and seek other occupations and places of abode.
Second, no attempt should be made by law directly and specifically to hinder
the migration of anyone for any reason, so long as America remains America.
Third, destitute migrants should obtain assistance in adequate measure,
either in the form of direct relief or work relief.
PROPOSES JOINT FEDERAL-STATE AID
The foregoing provision should be made jointly by the Federal Goverument
and the State in which the needy migrants are temporary sojourners, with the
greater part coming from the Federal Government. In principle, this arrange-
ment is relatively simple, even though the administrative difficulties may be
complex. However, tliey are not insurmountable, for essentially the same situ-
ation confronted the Federal Emergency Relief Administration, the Resettlement
iNTEKSTATE MIGRATION 3491
Administration, and the Farm Security Administration. Whether the relief to
migrants should be administered by the Work Projects Administration or by a
new Federal agency set up for this specific purpose is a question which we do
not need to consider here.
The observations just made obviously deal only with a temporary situation.
They suggest no permanent remedy, nor do they offer anything by way of abolition
or prevention. Yet, abolition of the conditions which are responsible for destitute
migrants and prevention of the recurrence of these conditions should be the
main concern of this committee. On this point, I would make the following
suggestions.
First a part of the problem will be solved through the gradual improvement
in business conditions and employment which is now under way. Wherever
this occurs the number of those likely to migrate into another State will
be reduced. And this development will be helpful both to the heads of
families and to single persons. As a matter of policy, therefore, consistent
and continuous elforts should be directed toward the increase of employment
in private industry.
PERMANENT REMEDIES SUGGESTED
However, even this proposal falls under the head of temporary and partial
remedies. Really permanent remedies refer particularly to the farm dwellers
who have been displaced by Dust Bowl phenomena and other factors. Here,
the requisite measures are threefold : Rehabilitation loans, loans for owner-
ship, and measures which favor the operators of small farms. With I'egard
to rehabilitation loans, we have already seen a good beginning. And the
results are very encouraging. A recent survey of 360,000 active rehabilitation
borrowers thus described their status in 1939 as compared with their condi-
tion the year before they obtained their loans :
"Whereas, the year before the loans were made the net income of the
borrowing families was $375.42, their average net income in 1939, the year of
the survey, was $538.40. That represents an increase of 43 percent. Again,
whereas, their net worth or capital, over and above all debts, was $SS4.49
per family before their loans were made, it stood at $1,114.91 the year of
the survey. That is an increase of 26 percent and means that, taken together,
these families added a total of $83,000,000 to the wealth of their communities."
(The Rural South: Problem or Prospect, Rev. Edgar Schmiedeler, O. S. B.,
p. 21.)
Obviously, this beneficent provision could and should be extended indefin-
itely. Before he left the Farm Security Administration, Dr. Will Alexander
declared that half a million applicants for rehabilitation loans had to be
refused for want of funds, and that these, or a great proportion of them,
had joined the grand army of migrants.
Concerning provisions for enabling tenants to become owners, their inade-
quacy is equally striking. Farm owners are becoming tenants at the rate of
40,000 per year, while the $50,000,000 annual appropriation is insufficient to
offset more than a fraction of this addition to the number of our tenant
farmers. An appropriation of $1,000,000,000 a year for rehabilitation loans
and ownership loans would not' be excessive if that amount could be efficiently
dispensed by the Farm Security Administration.
L.\RGE FAKMS VERSUS SMALL FARMS
Finally, we come to the question of large versus small farms. This is the
most difficult problem of all, inasmudi as its solution involves a drastic
change in fundamental policies. This committee has heard a great deal of
testimony concerning the displacement of small farmers through the mechaniza-
tion of the farm industry. I cite only one witness, Gladys Talbott Edwards,
education director of the Farmers Union : "In the mechanization of farms,
more than a million and a half workers have been displaced who can never
again find work on the land." How can this process be arrested? One
method would be to withdraw Agricultural Adjustment Administration benefits
from any farmer who cultivates or operates more than 500 acres of land.
Second, and perhaps even more important would be a supertax on large land
ro— 41— pt. 9-
3492 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
holdings, say those which exceed 1,000 acres. Compel landowners who are
possessed of more than this amount to pay a progressive tax which will render
larger holdings unprofitable.
Twenty-five years ago, I recommended such a supertax in my book Distribu-
tive Justice. At that time I was not thinking of the migrant problem, for
it had not yet become formidable, nor of anything else except the general
desirability of a better distribution of the resources of America. In the light
of developments since 1915, I repeat that recommendation with greater em-
phasis. As a student of economics for almost half a century, I have come
to appreciate the meaning and value of "efficiency." As a general rule, I
believe that we should not discard or refuse to adopt any invention, device,
or method which increases production with a smaller amount of labor. Never-
theless, the supreme end of all technical improvements should be the welfare
of human beings. If the farm tractor and harvesting combine or any other
technical improvement means less debilitating labor or a greater net amount
of material benefits to human beings, it is desirable to that extent. On the
other hand, if any such change merely reduces the cost of production while
it increases the number of persons who are unable to live decently this so-
called technical progress is not genuine progress.
By way of summary, I desire to quote here, with complete approval, the
chief recommendations made to your committee, as stated in Facts for
Farmers, for December 1940:
1. Limit Agricultural Adjustment Administration benefits to a family-sized
economic unit.
2. Enact a graduated land tax.
3. Raise farm prices.
4. Enlarge the program of the Farm Security Administration.
5. Increase the tenant purchase program.
6. Lengthen the term of tenant leases.
7. Include migratory families in social legislation.
8. Refinance and scale down the farm-mortgage debt.
9. Establish a farm-placement service.
TESTIMONY OF RT. REV. JOHN A. RYAN, D. D.— Resumed
The Chairman. Mr. Osmers will ask you some questions, and the
other members of the committee will follow him, as they may desire.
Mr. Osmers. Monsignor, I want to say that I received a copy of
your prepared statement, and I wonder if you would, in your own
words, give to the committee the important points contained in that
statement.
Monsignor Ryan. Yes ; I shall try to do that, briefly.
I observed, in the letter which was sent to Monsignor Ready,
general secretary of the National Catholic Welfare Conference, in-
viting him or someone he would designate, to take part in this hear-
ing, a statement to the effect that the theme of the hearing today
woidd be that of settlement. I have not dealt with it specifically in
my prepared statement.
Mr. OsMEKS. I would rather, with the concurrence of the chairman,
that you not necessarily confine yourself to the subject of settlement.
MIGRANCT A CONTINUING PROBLEM
Monsignor Ryan. I would like, if you will permit me, to make two
observations on settlement.
The proposals I recommend have to do almost entirely with the
farm migrants, and the proposal relative to rehabilitation loans, plus
other facilities which enable tenants to become owners. These are
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3493
long-distance settlement proposals, they will not go into effect next
week or next year. But I think they are fundamental.
There is one observation I would like to make regarding the
important problem of settlement. The other day, at Trinity College,
I mentioned to my class that I was coming here today, and I said
it was a continuing problem, and I will not say anything that has not
been said before.
One of the students said, "What about camps for these migrants?"
Maybe I was a bit hasty, but I thought of concentration camps im-
mediately. I said, "No, we are not going to force anybody to go into
a camp and stay there, except as a last resort ; but camps for those who
are in particular need, where they can be induced to go in, where the
conditions are good, and with no compulsion."
That is all I would say about the important matter of settlement.
WOULD INCREASE REHABILITATION LOANS
The main points in my prepared statement are, first, that there
should be a great extension and enlargement of rehabilitation loans
to those persons who are tenants, or perhaps owners, but who need im-
mediate assistance to enable them to operate their farms.
In the second place, there should be a much greater appropriation
in the interest of ownership, enabling tenants to become owners.
The third point is the restriction of the triple A benefits to farm-
ers whose farms are below a certain acreage. I have said it should
be 500 acres, and that those who own more than 500 acres should not
get the triple-A benefits.
The fourth point, which is a very long-distance one, is that there
should be a supertax on large lanclholdings. Apparently the large
landholdings have come to be connected with the use of machinery, and
the use of machinery has dislodged a great many farmers. That ought
to be prevented somehow, notwithstanding our interest in efficiency.
Many years ago I heard Justice Brandeis, long before he was on
the bench, in a lecture in Minneapolis on monopoly, in which he
said, "I hope we shall never become a Nation of hired men." That
is what our farm population is becoming, to a great extent — a Nation
of hired men — and that is bad business.
I think that summarizes what I have to say.
Mr. OsMERS. We have, of course, two aspects of this problem. One
is that, as a Government, we have the immediate problem of re-
lieving these people and providing them with food, clothing, and
shelter. Then we have the long-term problem of endeavoring to
find places for them in our economy where they would be able to
earn their own way.
I am happy to notice that your recommendations are directed
principally toward a long-term solution of the problem. I think
that, as a Government, that is where our greatest efforts should be
placed.
We have, of course, a great many different relief set-ups that are
cumbersome and do not, in all instances, work.
I was very much interested in your remarks as to the restriction
of these triple-A payments. The question came before us several
Q^Q^ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
days ao-0 when we had some of the men from the Department of
A^riciiltnre here. They expressed their veiws on that subject, and
I would like to have your opinion on it.
They said that if payments were not available to the very large
farms, the so-called industrialized, or corporate, farms, they would
fail to observe the crop restrictions that go with the triple-A pro-
oram, and thereby lower farm prices, to the detriment of everybody
en.o-ao-ed in agriculture. Would you say that is a likely happening?
Slonsignor Ryan. I do not know about that, but I do not see how,
rio-ht now, that that would happen to any significant extent, cer-
tatnly not to the extent that would wipe out the benfits. The benfits
seein to be pretty obvious, from what has been said by a good many
persons as to the relation between these payments to farm operators
and the displacement of the small man.
I do not pretend to understand how it works, but it seems that
that is the fact. I do not believe the increase in production and the
taking off of these restrictions on their acreage by the large farmers
would completely offset the benefits of which I speak.
But I am not an expert.
RURAL MIGRATION IMPORTANT PROBLEM
Mr. OsMERS. I notice in your prepared statement you devote your-
self rather exclusively to the question of rural migration. Do you
regard the urban migration problem as a serious one, or do you feel
that urban migration is not as great as the other?
Monsignor Ryan. I think now the importance of the rural problem
is much greater than the other. The other, like the poor, we always
have with use. We always have the problem of those who leave the
farms and go to the city,'and migrants from the city to the country,
and that problem is not usually a great one. It was serious in the
first years of the depression. No doubt a great number did go from
the cities to the farms. But as soon as business picks up that trend
ceases.
If we are headed now for something like full employment withm a
year, then I think the question of urban persons going to farms will
not be of any great importance.
Mr. OsMERS. Do you look for an increase or a decrease in migration?
Monsignor Ryan. Well, it mainly depends upon the degree to
which business will pick up, and something like full employment be
secured. If that occurs, the problem of migrants, both rural and
urban, will be considerably diminished, for various reasons. I do not
think there is any question about that.
RURAL AID NOT AFFECTING URBAN MIGRANTS
Mr. OsMERS. If a program such as you have outlined in your
prepared statement is put into effect, do you feel that there will
be decreased migration from the cities to the land, particularly on
the part of people who live a marginal existence in the cities today?
Monseigneur Ryan. I do not think so. Wiat I am talking about
is rehabilitation loans for those who are farmers, and ownership for
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3495
those who are tenants. To whatever extent that is realized, it will
not help the urban person who wants to o;o to the farm very much,
except if there was general prosperity on the farms there would
be more opportunity for workers there and employees on the farms.
But directly, I do not think the proposal I make for rural migrants
would affect the situation of those going to the cities.
All of my life I have been acquainted with persons going from
the farms to the cities. I recall, perhaps before some of you fjentle-
men were born, that the parish priest — I grew up on a farm in Minne-
sota— protested against the young people going to the city. That
had just about started. We were only about 20 miles from St. Paul,
and it was pretty easy to go to the city. They said then that if
we wanted to go to the city we w^anted to see the electric lights.
There have been a great many more attractive things provided now
than electric lights. That sort of thing has been going on all the
time, and I do not know any way to stop it. I do not know that
there is any way to stop it, certainly not by legal compulsion.
Mr. OsMERS. I think the only way to stop it would be to make the
rural areas more attractive places in which to live. I think the Amer-
ican rural youth is rather interested in taking a fling at the cities and
always will be.
In your statement you recommend that increased farm prices would
tend to greatly improve the situation. I realize that that is a very
large order. What machinery would you suggest to increase prices?
Monsignor Kyax. I just included that proposal among the other pro-
posals. I could not answer that question comprehensively.
I think the Agricultural Adjustment Administration has been, to
a limited extent, perhaps successful in the measures it has put into
operation to raise farm prices. That farm prices should be raised,
I think nobody doubts. As to the method of doing it, the Agricul-
tural Adjustment Administration has done something about it.
If we had general prosperity, I think the question of farm prices
would be largely solved because people in the cities w^ould have more
buying power. I tie a great deal of that up with the question of full
employment and full production.
Mr.'OsMERS. In regard to the question of full production, Monsignor,
would you say that in our effort to raise prices we have been too re-
strictive with respect to production?
Monsignor Ryan. I do not think so.
Mr. OsMERS. Would you say we have overproduced or undercon-
sumed ?
Monsignor Ryan. We have underconsumed.
SUPERTAX FOR LARGE FARM OWNERS
Mr. OsMERS. I have just two more points I w^ant to ask you about.
I would like to go into the suggestion as to a supertax for a moment,
that is a supertax on the large owners.
Would you say that there was a little philosophy of the single tax
in that ?
2^gg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Monsigiior Kyan. Well, a little ; yes. As a matter of fact, I put that
in a textbook I referred to, in the chapter where I discussed the single
tax. It was one remedy which I thought was better than the single
tax, because I am not a single-taxer.
I had read a part of Henry George's book when I was 14 years of
age, and I have a lot of sympathy with it. They have some fairly good
ideas, but as to the whole program — no.
Mr. OsMERS. One more question : I would like to have your opinion
on the effect of world peace on America's economy and, of course, its
effect on the migrant problem.
Monsignor Ryan. World peace would certainly be helpful, but how
helpful no one can say now, because we do not know what kind of a
peace is going to come.
Certainly war has disturbed our economic relations with other coun-
tries very considerably, and to a great extent harmfully, although our
exports, because of war demands, are greater than a year ago.
But any peace arrangement that is applicable would be helpful to
every economic problem we have and would help solve every economic
problem we have here, partly and gradually, at any rate. It certainly
would be preferable to what we have now.
DEFENSE PROGRAM INCREASES MIGRATION
Mr. OsMERS. Do you feel, Monsignor, that peace, or an end of our
domestic defense program, would greatly upset our economy for a
while and cause the greatest migration ever seen in this country ?
We are now building defense plants, powder plants, and other plants
far out in the hills and far removed from any other source of income,
and, if peace should come, all those people would have to migrate,
because in some of those locations there is no agriculture and no other
industry.
Monsignor Ryan. No doubt such a change could have very evil ef-
fects, first, if it came suddenly ; and secondly, if adequate preparations
were not made by the Government to meet it.
Mr. OsMERS. To absorb the shock ?
Monsignor Ryan. Yes. The change from a munitions-producing
economy to the ordinary economy need not be disastrous. Suppose,
when peace came, we should have nearly full employment and were
going to close a great many factories making war materials. It would
be possible to shift those persons to regular production, provided that
the distribution of production was such that those who wanted to buy
had the money with which to buy. They are going to have that period
toward which they will have to go, and at the end of that period it is
going to be a big problem, and special steps will have to be taken.
Mr. OsMERS. If it were continuous over a period of years, and if we
go into the war, as long as we continue to consider human beings still
worth considering, do not you think it is a strong threat to our basic
form of government and that such a shock would bring about a great
economic dislocation ?
Monsignor Ryan. I do not know.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3497
Mr. OsMEES. Let me suppose a case : That tomorrow morning five
or ten million men should be wholly or partially unemployed at one
time, do you believe that a group of those men, or many of them, would
sit down without doing something about it ?
Monsignor Kyan. No; but suppose that should occur tomorrow
morning, as you say. Congressman, there are certain provisions which
have been adopted by the Federal Government which would aid that
considerably.
APPROVES GOVERNMENT PLANNING
Mr. OsMERS. Do you feel that would lead to a period of greater
regulation. Government regulation, and Government control of every-
thing to keep things running? Is not that found in every instance,
either in Europe or elsewhere, when to have complete war it has
required Government planning, tearing down the last iota of personal
liberty?
Monsignor Ryan. I think that some general program would be
necessary but it seems to me that, as far as necessary, it should
be temporary.
Now, you mentioned about planning, even planning for the people
themselves, I was in favor of the bill that Congressman Jerry
Voorhis and others introduced along the line of industrial expansion.
Whether that would work or not I do not know, but I am for the plan-
ning thing. The great question is how much compulsion you are
going to put into the planning, direct compulsion, whether through
inducements to the manufacturers who comply, through a 20-percent
allotment, or 10 percent. I think that you are going to have a lot
of that.
The Chairman. Mr. Curtis.
Mr. Curtis. Monsignor Ryan, I for one have great appreciation
of your coming here and of the valuable and specific recommendations
in reference to migration to areas of agriculture. I was intensely
interested in that.
EFFECT or MIGRATION ON CHURCHES
What effect has there been noticed, because of migration in rural
areas, upon churches and church life of America ?
Monsignor Ryan. I am afraid I could not speak on that with any
authority. I have not paid much attention to it.
Mr. Curtis. Would you care to make any observation about it ?
Monsignor Ryan. I doubt, that as far as the Catholic Church is
concerned, its effect has been very great. Unfortunately the ma-
jority— I say unfortunately from one standpoint — the majority of
Catholics, about 80 percent of them, live in the cities of this country.
As my pastor used to say, many of them went there perhaps to see
the electric lights, so I doubt if there were very many Catholics in-
volved in this migration from farms, particularly from the Dust
Bowl area. But I have not paid much attention to it.
Mr. Curtis. In addition to what is planned under what we may call
an economically wise planned program that can be instituted for just
relief, we still must encourage individual sacrifice.
3498
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Monsignor Kyan. Oh, yes.
Mr. Curtis. And urge thrift and economy.
Monsignor Ryan. Yes.
SOCIAL SECURITY FOR DEFENSE WORKERS
Mr. Curtis. Do you think that there should be an exploration into
the question of security for individuals employed in industry that
is concerned purely with national defense ?
Monsignor Eyan. Purely what?
Mr. Curtis. Purely national defense, with no peacetime function
whatsoever, that a portion of their wages, in addition to what is al-
ready taken for social security, should be retained to help these in-
dividuals cushion themselves against that day when that industry
may disappear entirely?
Now, all of these contracts are under the direct jurisdiction of
the Federal Government; the Federal Government makes the appro-
priation, specifies what can be done in the contract, and largely
what the wages shall be, so we have, perhaps, authority to do that.
Now I am not asking you to agree or disagree with such a thing,
but do you think that something of that kind should be explored ?
Monsignor Ryan. It should be explored; yes; but I would not be
in favor of arbitrary compulsion. I think perhaps there should be
something in addition, but it should be brought about by moral
suasion; that people engaged in that work should be encouraged to
do it ; but to compel them to do it, I would question.
Mr. Curtis. Perhaps I did not state my question in the form I
should. The thought was not, under law, to compel men to take
money that has reached their hands and invest their savings in a
specific thing. I mean to make the wages payable so that a part of
it would stay to help cushion themselves against the time when that
entire industry disappears.
Monsignor Ryan. Well, it seems to me that would be compulsory
thrift and I do not like the element of compulsion.
J. Maynard Keynes has suggested some kind of a program like
that for Great Britain, not perhaps the same, but much of the same
character ; first as to what would be expected of workers of that kind,
with their savings, not now, but later on, when certain changes take
place in the prosecution of the war in Great Britain.
But I do not like the idea of compulsion; I think that it is neces-
sary, and I think you should encourage thrift.
But, there are ways, and the way has been shown in the National
Mediation Act's relation with the railroads, and there has not been
a major strike on the railroads for 15 years, I think, but there is no
compulsion and I think that should be* sufficient to keep the defense
industry running.
I merely mention that as an illustration of how you can get the
thing done by a kind of persuasion that is not legal compulsion.
Mr. Curtis. You think it should be worked out ?
Monsignor Ryan. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. AVhere employees agree to accept this assistance?
Monsignor Ryan. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3499
Mv. Curtis. So they may have something to cushion themselves
against the day when the industry disappears.
The Chairman. Mr. Sparkman.
Mr. Sparkman. Monsignor Ryan, I was very much interested in
the remarks yon made with reference to farm conditions.
FAMILY FARM UNIT BREAK-DOWN
Is it your opinion that there is a break-down of the family farm
unit?
Monsignor Ryan. Well, all I know is what I have been reading
of the testimony before this committee and from other sources as
to the number, and that is not necessarily of sufficient long standing.
I was on the President's i^dvisory Committee on Farm Security —
the Farm Tenant Program I believe it was called — for 2 or 3 years,
and it was said there were 40,000 owners becoming tenants every
year, and I do not suppose that the proportion has gone down since
1937 or 1938; perhaps it is bigger.
Mr. Sparkman. That is a change from the relationship of home
ownership to that of tenancy.
Monsignor Ryan. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. But what I mean is this : Do you think the number
of farm units is decreasing?
Monsignor Ryan. I have not seen the figures on that. I suppose
it is decreasing somewhat, but I think that if a million and a half
persons have lost their farms or have moved from the farms in the
last 2 or 3 years, as was testified here by somebody, that the number
of units, farm units, throughout the country necessarily must have
decreased.
LIMIT AGRICULTURAL ADJUSTMENT ACT BENEFICIARIES TO 5 0 0-ACEE FARMS
Mr. Sparkman. Now, you recommend that farm benefit payments
be restricted to only the operator or at least to those who cultivate
500 acres or less. You are familiar, I am sure, with the fact that the
present farm act limits the amount that can be paid to any one farm
operation.
Monsignor Ryan. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. I believe the limit is to $10,000, if I recall it cor-
rectly. When the legislation was being debated a very serious effort
was made to cut it to $5,000. But apparently it was the opinion that
$10,000 should be the maximum. Then there is also a penalty for
cutting down the number of farm units, that is, for pushing the tenants
or sharecroppers on the farm operation off the large farms.
The problem, as was explained to us by a representative of the
Department of Agriculture, is in reaching a happy medium and main-
taining the balance whereby cooperation or participation of these large
operators will be obtained.
Do you feel — I know Mr. Curtis asked you a question very similar
to this, and I believe you said it would not make a great deal of differ-
ence in the program, in your opinion. Now representatives from the
3500 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Department of Agriculture told us that it would, as a matter of fact
that it might, defeat the program of balanced production.
Monsignor Ryan. Well I am not familiar with that situation at all.
Certainly a statement by a representative of the Department of Agri-
culture is much more effective than mine, and certainly has more facts
to support it than any statement that I could make. I must say that
I have not thought on that before. I do not know.
Mr. Sparkman. I believe he told us also that the number of checks
going out, which would indicate the number of farms actually in
operation, have not shown an appreciable decrease.
Monsignor Ryan. Well, there are new farmers, I suppose, coming
on every year; there is an increase in the farm population as well as
in the other population, so that statement would not refute anything,
the mere fact that there has been no reduction in the number of checks,
because if the farm population is increasing the number of checks to
farms would likely show an increase.
Mr. Sparkman. The point is that these checks go to the farm.
Monsignor Ryan. Yes ; I appreciate that.
BACK-TO-FARM MOVEMENT
Mr. Sparkman. I was very much impressed with some of the pre-
liminary census figures — I do not know what the final figures will
show — but as far as the preliminary figures show that in the last 10
years there has possibly been a movement from the cities back to the
farms ; it shows certainly that the rapid increase in population in the
large cities had not kept pace with what it had been in the preceding
10 years.
Monsignor Ryan. I have not seen the census report on that and I
am a bit surprised at the moderate language, because certainly we
were told 6 or 7 or 8 years ago that there had been a great movement
from the cities to the farms, largely by persons who had moved previ-
ously to the city from the farms and who thought they could better
themselves in their condition by securing employment in the cities,
but who are now moving back to the farms.
I think there is no doubt a considerable migration has taken place
from the cities to the farms in the past, say, the first 5 years of this
decade, I mean, from 1930 to 1935 or 1936.
Mr. Sparkman. Now, your idea of a supertax on the land, of course,
would be a Federal tax ?
Monsignor Ryan. Yes; it would have to be.
Mr. Sparkman. Is not that quite a severe departure from our
past practice ?
Monsignor Ryan. Yes ; I realize that. That is the one field of tax-
ation that the Federal Government has at least overlooked up to
this time, on real estate farm land,
Mr. Sparkman. Do you not believe there ought to be a tendency
for the Federal Government to leave some field alone ?
Monsignor Ryan. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3501
SUPERTAX FOR 1,000-ACRE FARMS
Mr. Sparkman. You stated, I believe, that such a tax would have
to be based on an acreage provision ?
Monsignor Ryan. Yes ; of a thousand acres or more.
Mr. Sparkman. The only thought I wish to point out in that con-
nection is you might have a thousand acres in one locality that would
be worth a thousand times what a thousand acres would be in another
locality.
Monsignor Ryan. That is a local condition, but in general terms
you could set a normal limitation of somewhere around 1,000 acres
and that limitation, of course, would be varied under much the same
principle as that now involved in the Fair Labor Standards Act. There
is a minimum wage fixed by the Congress for the whole country. And,
the variations in one part of the country as against another part of
the country, so far as wages are concerned, are adjusted from that
minimum. I think we have to reconcile ourselves to the general
policy of setting a limitation beyond which the process cannot go, and
as Mr. and Mrs. Webb said some time ago, we must have a national
minimum ; naturally the minimum will not fit everybody, but it will
fit the needs of the majority. That is all we can say.
Mr. Sparkman. I was thinking that probably out in the cattle
country a thousan,d acres might not be sufficient, whereas a thousand
acres devoted to truck farming in an industrial section would repre-
sent a huge industrial plant.
Monsignor Ryan. Well, if the Federal Government, the Congress,
ever got around to putting this into operation, it could make the classi-
fication of land. And it is my understanding that the attitude of the
Supreme Court is, in considering a problem of that kind, that any
taxing unit can go far along that line, provided a proper classification is
made within that unit.
For instance, in my own State of Mimiesota the State has a tax on
iron ore, which I believe, is different from the tax on the surface of
the soil. That was taken to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court
said that that was a proper classification as long as it was not an
arbitrary one.
Now, to increase by many thousands of acres the limitation for
grazing land would not be an arbitrary classification, so I do not think
there would be any great difficulty about that.
Mr. Sparkman. I was asking the question for this reason : To see if
you might not think that, instead of placing this arbitrary tax on
land, you might have a levy on machines, whether you think that would
be preferable. I understand that the displacement of labor by ma-
chines is the real problem.
Monsignor Ryan. Yes. Possibly that might be helpful, but I have
not been able to see it. In the first place, where the proposition is
defended, it increased the cost of production, no doubt ; the consumer
pays it eventually. Well, you might say also the consumer pays even-
tually for any decrease in this very efficient farm-machinery method,
the price of agricultural products may be higher, but I do not think
they would be vei-y much higher than that produced by machinery,
and I think the explanation involves many things that I cannot think
2502 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
of, I am sure. And, certainly from those who have recommended it, I
received many letters saying that this will be solved by a tax on
machinery. But the defense of the proposal did not strike me as
taking in all of the factors.
COOPERATIVE FARMING EFFORTS APPROVED
Mr. Spakkman. Dr. Taylor, of the University of California, at
Berkeley, made a suggestion based upon the premise that in order to
employ labor on the farm, in order for it to be economically employed,
that the farm must be of a certain type. In other words, just like
capital laid out in business, it had to be large enough to justify the
investment if you are going to make it profitable, and that it would
not be practicable for the small individual farm owner, but that you
could have three, four, or five groups together, form a cooperative and
purchase the necessary machinery through a cooperative. What do
you think of that ?
Monsignor Ryan. I think it is a very fine idea ; yes.
Mr. Sparkman. And that method might be financed by the Federal
Government, I do not mean by a grant, but through loans.
Monsignor Ryan. Yes ; I should think so ; I am for all the coopera-
tion possible, and using the best machinery there is. Why not use it 'i
But let the use of machinery be so arranged that the individuals would
not be pushed off the farm, causing these farms to become large indus-
trial operations with most of the persons concerned in it working for
wages.
Mr. Sparkman. I think that is all.
The Chairman. Monsignor Ryan, I have been very much interested
in your remarks, and the question occurs to me all the time as we look
into the picture of migration, that it is connected with every economy
in our national life ; that you cannot consider migration in itself alone.
Monsignor Ryan. Yes.
The Chairman. It results from worn-out farms, mechanism, un-
employment, and various things. And there is no single solution to it.
Monsignor Ryan. No.
migration a national problem
The Chairman. This is the first investigation addressed solely to
this proposition. We have spent millions of dollars during our history
in studying and establishing regulations for interstate commerce, but
never for the interstate movement of human beings.
Now, one of the solutions which you outlined was rehabilitation
loans, in other words, resettlement loans. In that regard the Farm
Security is doing that very thing, Monsignor Ryan. They have loaned
money to 500,000 farmers with whicli. to buy horses, cows, feed, and
other things that are required to keep them oil the farm.
But here is the point I want to make : In the Great Plains States
they have lost a million people in the last 10 years; in the Great Plains
States 5,000,000 acres of once productive soil has lost 25 percent of its
topsoil.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3503
Now, I am particularly interested, Monsignor, in those good Ameri-
can citizens who have been forced to move because of circumstances
over which they have no control. And they start out and what do they
run into? Tliey come to a State border line, perhaps as a result of
some private employment agency giving them some misinformation,
telling them there are jobs, and they run up against barriers of from 6-
month to 5-year settlement laws. In other words, there are barriers
against the flow of humanity, but there are no barriers against inter-
state commodity commerce.
So, the thing that you mentioned is something that has been recom-
mended, and is an idea that can be done, to keep them on the farms.
And in our investigations throughout the United States, and we trav-
eled 10,000 miles, I personally never have come across a single migrant
in California or any other State who would not like to have an oppor-
tunity to stay on the farm, who w^ould not be willing to live on the
farm, and I think that you will agree with this committee that every-
thing indicates it is a national problem. You feel that way, do you
not?
Monsignor Ryan. Oh, absolutely. Of course, it is a national prob-
lem.
I heard the figures you gave a short time ago, Mr. Chairman, about
the number of migrants to California, and no State should be re-
quired to take care of them; no State should be required to bear up
under that burden. Aside from the nice fresh air and sunshine — and
certainly they require something more than that, as a brother of mine
said when somebody wanted to go to San Diego — as a matter of fact,
he has been there several years — "San Diego, yes ; but you cannot live
on sunshine."
Mr. Parsons. Well, it gave California three extra Members of Con-
gress as a result of the migration.
Monsignor Ryan. Yes; but the individual must have something
more than a nice place to live.
MIGRATION injurious TO NATIONAL MORALE
The Chairman. Monsignor, our records disclose there were about
4,000,000 of these migrants last year and certainly we must do some-
thing to better their situation, because if we do not I am satisfietl
it wdll strike at the morale of the country, and anything that strikes
at the morale of the country strikes at our national defense.
As a matter of fact, do you not know^ that the Census returns have
been held up because there are hundreds of thousands of American
citizens who have not lived in one State long enough to be assigned
to the State, and do you not think some provision must be made
whereby they can be citizens of a State ?
Monsignor Ryan. They certainly ought to be able to stay in one
place long enough to be counted once in 10 years. Of course, it is a
national problem.
The Chairman. The committee feels very much honored to have
had you come this morning, and we appreciate very much your valua-
ble statement.
3504
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Monsignor Ryan. It is a pleasure to have been here.
The Chaerman. The committee will take a recess until 2 o'clock.
(At 12 noon a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The recess having expired, the chairman, Hon. John H. Tolan,
called the committee to order at 2 p. m.
The Chairman. Our next witnesses will be Miss Hoey and Mr.
Tate.
TESTIMONY OF MISS JANE HOEY, DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF PUBLIC
ASSISTANCE, SOCIAL SECURITY BOARD; AND JACK B. TATE,
GENERAL COUNSEL, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
The Chairman. Miss Hoey, will you please give your full name and
address, and your official position?
Miss HoET. It is Jane M. Hoey, director of public assistance, of the
Social Security Board.
The Chairman. You reside in Washington ?
Miss Hoey. In Washington ; yes.
The Chairman. Mr. Tate, will you please give your name and offi-
cial connection, for the record ?
Mr. Tate. Jack B. Tate, general counsel of the Federal Security
Agency. I reside in Washington. I would like to introduce Mr,
Herbert Margolis, who is on my staff.
The Chairman. I would like to say to you at the outset that Con-
gressman Sparkman will interrogate Miss Hoey, but in answer to any
of the questions, if there is anything additional you would like to
incorporate, Mr. Tate, you will be permitted to do that; likewise,
Miss Hoey, you will be allowed to interpolate in Mr. Tate's exam-
ination.
Mr. Sparkman. Miss Hoey, I have read your statement and looked
at the supplements to some extent. They will be put in the record at
this point.
statement of jane m. hoey, director, bureau of public
assistance, social security board
Present Situation \N;'ith Regard to Migrants and Recommendations FOfR
Theik Care
general situation
1. There is legitimate migration which needs to be encouraged, especially from
those areas where it is impossible at the present time to earn a living because of
the economic situation.
2. This migration as far as possible should be accomplished in an orderly
fashion. Migration can be controlled to some extent if the larger industries,
especially those with defense contracts, will utilize the public employment offices
in recruiting workers.
3. Studies of migrants indicate that in general they are a young age group and
would be an asset in any community if given an opportunity to become self-
supporting.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3505
4. The increase in private employment provided througli defense industries and
in other ways has not, and in all probability will not, take care of all the able-
bodied unemployed residents and migrants, since many of these are unskilled and
the older ones have been unemployed for long periods.
5. The migrant problem has been greatly magnified recently due to the creation
and expansion of industries for defense and of cantonments and other establish-
ments related to the armed forces of the United States. Since these are distributed
throughout the United States almost every State is now faced with this problem
of the care of migrants. Previously only a few States with an unusually large
number of migrants were aware of the problem.
FACTS ABOUT RELIEF SITUATION
1. The \\'ork Projects Administration, Public Works Administration, National
Youth Administration, and Civilian Conservation Corps programs have never
absorbed all able-bodied, unemployed persons in need of employment.
2. Twelve States do not make available any State funds to assist their local
political subdivisions in providing relief for needy persons for whom work is not
suitable or available and who are not eligible for one of the three categories of
public assistance.
3. The local communities, except in a limited number of States, have not appro-
priated funds in sufficient amount to provide even the minimum subsistence needs
for persons without sufficient resources to maintain themselves.
4. A tax on property, the chief basis for revenue raising in most communities,
does not produce sufficient revenue to meet all local governmental expenses and
finance an adequate relief program in addition in most communities in the United
States.
5. With a limited number of exceptions, in the last 5 years the States and
localities pooling their resources and the Federal Government sharing 50 percent
of the cost of public assistance for the three groups have provided only inadequate
public assistance for many needy aged and blind persons and dependent children.
In many States there are long waiting lists of eligible aged persons and dependent
children for whom no provision is made, usually due to lack of resources. Even
though under the public assistance titles of the Social Security Act, local residence
as a basis of eligibility has been eliminated and only State residence required,
in many States settlement and residence laws are so restrictive that even aged
and blind persons, otherwise eligible, who have not lived 5 out of 9 years in the
State, one of which must have been immediately preceding the application, are
denied public assistance. Lack of citizenship in many States also excludes
otherwise eligible aged and blind persons.
6. "While the number of persons adversely affected because of restrictive resi-
dence or settlement laws is not known for the country at large, a rough measure
of their infiueuce is shown by the fact that in seven States, the District of
Columbia, and Cook County (Chicago), 111., for which data are available during
specified periods in 1937 and 1938, from 1.5 percent to 7.4 percent of the applicants
for old-age assistance were rejected because the applicant was ineligible because
of residence requirements." ^
RECOMMENDATIONS
1. The Council of National Defense and its Advisory Commission should be
asked to request all firms receiving defense contracts to utilize to the fullest
possible extent the free public employment service for recruitment of new
employees.
2. The Federal work programs, including Public Works Administration, Work
Projects Administration, National Youth Administration, and Civilian Conserva-
tion Corps, should be extended to include all employable unemployed persons in
need, residents and migrants.
3. The vocational rehabilitation program is restricted to those who can be
placed in competitive industry. This program should be broadened, or a new
1 Data secured from the Division of Public Assistance Research, Bureau of Research and
Statistics, Social Security Board, compiled January 4, 1939.
orQf? INTERSTATE MIGRATION
program developed, to include all persons who could be trained for partial, if not
**^?^ All Federal laws providing grants-in-aid to States should be conditioned, in
addition to other requirements, upon the States agreement to extend services to
all persons living in the State without regard to length of residence. This condi-
tion should be applicable to such programs as vocational rehabilitation, health
services child welfare, public assistance, farm security, and surplus commodities.
5 The Social Security Act should be amended to provide Federal grants-in-aid
to States for general relief for needy residents and migrants for whom Federal
work programs are not suitable or available. Federal funds should be made
available to match 50 percent of the cost of administration and assistance. The
State should be required to submit a plan with provisions similar to those now
included in the Social Security Act relating to public assistance. The responsi-
bility for the supervision of this program should be in the same agency as the
other assistance programs, that is, the Social Security Board.
SUGGESTED PROVISIONS NOT KHXX>MMBNDBD
1. Federal grants-in-aid to States on a 100-percent basis for public assistance
to migrants: ,,..... -^ ^ i,
(a) If a lOO^percent grant for assistance and administration were provided by
the Federal Government for migrants, this would relieve the localities and the
States of a financial burden, but might result in an attempt on the part of the
States and localities with inadequate resources to classify residents as migrants
in order to secure Federal funds or encourage residents whose need is not being
met to become migrants in order to secure necessary assistance not available to
residents. Thus undesirable migration would be increased, not lessened. This
would also entail a very large expenditure on the part of the Federal Government
without effecting a desirable solution of this problem.
(6) If public assistance were granted to migrants on the same level as assist-
ance granted to residents, those States having a high level of assistance payments
would undoubtedly have an influx of migrants. This would result in other welfare
problems arising in these areas because of inadequate facilities for housing, medi-
cal care, and education. Any attempt on the part of the Federal Government to
provide public assistance on a flat grant basis for the relief of migrants would not
meet individual needs and would result in a distinction between the care given
to migrants and residents.
2. Federal grants-in-aid to States on a 50-percent basis for public assistance to
migrants alone without any Federal provision for needy residents :
(a) A 50-percent Federal grant to States for public assistance to migrants
would undoubtedly result in the very limited funds now available for general
relief for residents being further depleted in order to provide matching funds for
the care of migrants. This situation would merely increase the present, antagon-
ism of residents toward nonresidents.
(&) Since States could not be forced to pass appropriate legislation to take
advantage of the Federal grant for migrants, they might refuse to submit a State
plan for this purpose and prefer to utilize their available funds to meet the need
of local residents.
SUPPLEMENT I TO STATEMENT BY JANE M. HOEY, DIRECTOR,
BUREAU OF PUBLIC ASSISTANCE, SOCIAL- SECURITY BOARD
Legal Requirements for Residence, General Relief
The principle of legal residence or settlement that underlay the old approach
to general poor relief caused many difficulties during the depression period in
relation to unemployment relief. Consequently there was a separate handling
of the nonresident and transient group. At the present time, the realignment
of assistance programs makes no special provision for these nonresident and
transient individuals and families although the same problem still persists.
The settlement laws of the United States lack uniformity and are much
more complicated than those of England. These laws relate to the length of
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 35Q7
residence in States, counties, or towns to acquire settlement; tlie period of
fibsence to lose legal residence; the removal of nonresidents, and regulations
against bringing in nonsettled poor. In addition, there are provisions concerning
the effect of marriage, divorce, and desertion that affect the settlement of
w(»men, and other regulations concerning the settlement of children. Naturally
disputes over eligibility for relief often occur and some groups are ineligibfe
in any jurisdiction.
These elaborate provisions regarding "settlement" or legal residence for pur-
poses of public aid, followed the theory of local responsibility and were writ-
ten into the earliest poor laws to protect the local taxpayers. Settlement
controversies are closely related to the transportation agreement, court deci-
sions, attorney general's opinions, and interstate agreements, but the only
point to be made here is that because of this complicated system of local relief
many people are ineligible for assistance.
It is not only the transients who are involved in this loss of eligibility, but
resident families who through a technicality such as going across a State line
in search of elusive work opportunities lose their eligibility. Under restrictive
phrases, such as "continuous period of 3 years," ^ when rigidly interpreted by
the courts, families lose residence and thus lose their right to obtain assistance
when in need.
Because residence requirements for acquisition of settlement in the various
States ranges from 6 months to 5 years, and because these requirements do
not coincide with the statutory provisions for loss of settlement, it is easy to
lose residence in one State without acquiring it elsewhere. In addition there
are local requirements for settlement, so that within some States siiecial pro-
vision is made for caring for State poor who are without local settlement but
have State residence (New York and Massachusetts for example). In other
States such people are ineligible for general assistance.
In spite of the premise on which general relief programs are based there are
two groups which States and/or localities sometimes declare by law to be
ineligible for relief.
1. Aliens. — Four States, Pennsylvania, Oklahoma, Delaware, South Carolina,
have laws excluding nonresidents from relief. In Connecticut aliens may
receive relief only by vote of selectmen, and justices of peace, and inhabitants,^
while two counties in Maryland refuse relief to noncitizens.^
2. Persons lacking legal settlement {iiiigrants, transients, and nonresidents) .
Legal settlement is a technical term which means residence of a specified length
and under circumstances which entitle a person to assistance from a political
unit.
In nearly one-half of the States there are both State and local residence
requirements. One-third of the State statutes specify periods of local residence
only. In four States (Delaware, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, West Virginia),
there are State residence requirements but no local residence requirements'
No residence requirements are required by statute in five States (Arkansas'
Florida. Kentucky, New Mexico, Texas). However, even in four States not
Laving legal residence requirements it is customary to refuse relief to persons
who have not been residents for a specified period.*
1 Trosent Illinoi.s law. for example.
2 Compilation of Settlement Laws, American Public Welfare A'jsoeiation. September lO.Sq
In Appraisal of Trends in Research Legislation and Administrative Policy in the Public
Social Services " compiled for 1940 Delegate Conference American Associat on of Social
Workers it is stated "In Oklahoma citizenship has been dropped from the requirement for
eligibility because so few residents are not citizens and the cost of proving tl e citizenship
of applicants is very high," p. 7. 1 » ^ -^ v-xii^curMiip
3 State Public Welfare Legislation, Division of Research, Works Progress Administration
Research Monograph XX, January 1, 1939, p.^Sl, footnote 1.5 ^"sress Aaministiation,
^Florida, Kentucky. New Mexico, Texas. Compilation of Settlement Laws Amerimn
Public Welfare Association, Septemberl9.39, p. 6. ^ecoement i.a\^s, American
260370— 41— pt. 9-
3508
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table I. — Residence requirements {with restrictions) for acquisition of
settlement in the various States
1-year
period
Not
6 months
practiced,
assumed, or
lyear
2 years
3 years
4 years
5 years
specified
accepted
Alabama,
Florida,
District of
Delaware,
Arizona,
Connecti-
Kansas,
Arkansas,>
Maryland.
Mississippi.
Kentucky,
Columbia,
Minnesota,
California,
cut.
Maine,
New Mex-
Georgia,
Colorado,
Massa-
ico,
Idaho,
Illinois,
chusetts,
Texas.
Louisiana,
Michigan,
Missouri,
Montana,
Nebraska,
New York,
North
Carolina,'
North
Dakota,
Ohio,
Oklahoma,
Pennsyl-
vania,'
South
Dakota,
Tennessee,
Utah,
Virginia,'
Washing-
ton,
West Vir-
ginia,
Wisconsin,
Wyoming.
Indiana,
Nevada,
Oregon,
South
Carolina,
Vermont.
New
Hamp-
shire,'
New Jer-
sey,'
Rhode
Island.
1 See Compilation of Settlement Laws of all States in the United States (revised as of September 1939)
American Public Welfare Association, Chicago, October 1939.
Note —In all States it is usually stipulated or assumed that the required residence period must be with
out receipt of relief. Some States specify both public or private relief, others merely public assistance.
Table II. — Loss of settlement
Less than 1 year's
absence
1 year's absence
5 years' ab-
sence '
Intent «
Not speci-
fied 3
Acquisition
of new set-
tlement
3 years
Mississippi (6 months).
South Dakota (30 days),
Arizona,
Maine,
Alabama,
Arkansas,*
Connecti-
Vermont.
California,
Massachu-
Georgia,*
Delaware,
cut,
Utah (4 months).
Colorado,
setts,
Illinois,*
Idaho,
Pennsyl-
District of Co-
New
West Vir-
Louisi-
vania,*
lumbia,
Hamp-
ginia,
ana,*
Virginia,*
Florida,^
shire,*
Maryland,
North
Indiana,
Rhode Is-
Nevada,*
Carolina,
Iowa,
land.
New Mex-
Kansas,<
ico,*
Kentucky,
Ohio,
Michigan,*
Oklahoma,
Minnesota,
South
Missouri,
Carolina,
Montana,
Tennessee,
Nebraska,
Texas.
New Jersey,
New York,
North Dako-
ta,
Oregon,
Washington,
Wisconsin,
Wyoming.
' In these States settlement is lost after an absence of 5 years unless a new one is gained elsewhere in the
2 This usually indicated that the individual or family has left the State with the intention of taking up
permanent residence elsewhere. , , ^ _, . .^ . ,. ,j .i. ^ ^., ^- , .
3 In most States that have no specific provision for the loss of settlement it is held that settlement is lost
by being removed from the State for 1 year. . , „ , . , , „ ,_ „„„,
< See Compilation of Settlement Laws of All States in the United States (revised as of September 1939),
American Public Welfare Association, Chicago, October 1939.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 35Q9
SUPPLEMENT II TO STATEMENT BY JANE M. HOEY, DIRECTOR,
BUREAU OF PUBLIC ASSISTANCE, SOCIAL SECURITY BOARD
Teends in Residence Requirements for Public Assistance Categories
November 27, 1940.
residence
In 1936, 33 of the 42 old-age assistance plans required State residence of 5 out
of 9 years immediately preceding application and 1 year immediately preceding
application. Two more States did not specify that 1 year must immediately pre-
cede application. Two States required 5 out of 10 years immediately preceding
application and 1 year immediately preceding. Four more States had the same
requirement except for the 1-year residence immediately preceding application.
One State required residence of 2 of 9 years immediately preceding application and
1 year immediately preceding application. Twelve of the 27 aid-to-the-blind plans
required 5 of 9 years and 1 year immediately preceding, and 11 more had the same
requirement, but added that persons may be eligible if sight was lost while a resi-
dent of the State. Two States required 5 of 9 years immediately preceding appli-
cation but did not specify that 1 year must immediately precede application and
one of these granted assistance to those who had lost sight while residing in the
State. Two States required only 1 year's residence. For aid to dependent children
22 States required that the child must have resided in the State for 1 year preced-
ing application or was born within 1 year in the State and the mother was a resi-
dent of the State for 1 year immediately preceding birth. One State required that
the clvild must have resided in the State for 1 year preceding application, or was
born in the State within 1 year preceding application. One State required that
child must have resided in the State for 1 year preceding application or was born
in the State. In 2 States the mother or custodian must have been a resident for 1
year prior to application. One State specified no residence requirement for aid to
dependent children.
In 1937, 38 old-age assistance plans required State residence 5 of 9 years imme-
diately preceding application and 1 year immediately preceding application. Three
States did not specify that 1 year must immediately precede application. One
State required 5 of 10 years immediately preceding application and 1 year imme-
diately preceding and 3 States required only 5 out of 10 years iimnediately preced-
ing application. One State required residence of 2 out of 9 years immediately
preceding application and 1 year must immediately precede application. Four
States require only 1 year's residence. Thirty aid-to-the-blind plans i-equired
residence of 5 out of 9 years, and 1 year must immediately precede application ;
17 of these also made eligible those persons who lost sight while residents of the
State. Two States required residence of 5 out of 9 years immediately preceding
application and one of these made eligible persons who lost sight while residents
of State. Six States required only 1 year's residence. For aid to dependent chil-
dren, 34 plans required that the child must have resided in the State for 1 year
preceding application or was born within 1 year in the State, and the mother was
a resident of the State for 1 year immediately preceding birth. One State required
that the child must have resided in the State for 1 year preceding application or
was born within State. Two States required that the mother or custodian must
have been a resident for 1 year prior to application. One State required that the
child, parent, or guardian must have been a continuous resident for 1 year.
Two States had no residence requirement for aid to dependent children.
In 1938, 43 old-age assistance plans had a residence requirement of 5 out of 9
years immediately preceding application and 40 of these specified that 1 year must
be immediately preceding application. Four plans required 5 out of 10 years im-
mediately preceding application, and 1 of these siiecified that 1 year must be imme-
diately preceding application. One State required 2 out of 9 years and 1 year
immediately preceding application, and three States required only 1 year's resi-
dence. For aid to the blind, 31 plans required residence of 5 out of 9 years and 1
3510
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
year immediately preceding application, wUile 18 of these also made eligible those
persons who lost sight while residents of the State. Three States required only 5
out of 9 years residence and 1 made eligible those persons who lost sight while
residing in State ; 1 State, 2 out of 9 and 1 year immediately preceding application.
Six States required only 1 year's residence, and 1 had no residence requirement.
For aid to deiiendont children, the 1938 distribution remained the same except that
86 rather than 34, plans required residence of 1 year preceding application or was
born within the State within 1 year and the mother was a resident 1 year immedi-
ately preceding birth.
In 1939, 41 States, in their plans for old-age assistance, required residence of 5
out of 9 years immediately preceding application ; 38 of these specify that 1 year
must immediately precede application. Four States required residence of 5 out of
10 years immediately preceding application, and 2 of these specified that 1 year
must immediately precede application. One State required 2 out of 9 years imme-
diately preceding application, and 1 year must immediately precede application.
Four States required only 1 year, and 1 only 6 months' residence. For aid to the
blind, 33 plans required residence of 5 out of 9 years and 1 year immediately pre-
ceding application, while 19 of these made eligible those persons who lost sight
while residing in the State. Two States required 5 out of 9 years preceding appli-
cation and 1 made eligilile those who lost sight while residing in the State ; 1 State,
2 out of 9 and 1 yea r immediately preceding application. Five States required only
1 year, 1 only 6 months, and 1 had no residence requirement. For aid to dependent
children, 37 "plans required residence of 1 year preceding application or the child
must have been born within the State within 1 year and the mother was a resident
for 1 year immediately preceding birth. One State required only that the child
must have resided in the State for 1 year preceding application or was born within
the State. Two States specified that the child must have resided in the State for 1
year or in the custody of a person who had lived in the State for 1 year next pre-
ceding application. Two States had no residence requirement.
In 1940, for old-age assistance 40 States required residence of 5 out of 9 years
immediately preceding application, 38 of these specified that 1 year must immedi-
ately precede application. Three States required 5 out of 10 years, and 1 of these
specified that 1 year must immediately precede application. One State required
2 out of 9 years immediately preceding application with 1 year immediately pre-
ceding application : 6 required 1 year, and 1 required 6 months. For aid to the
blind, 33 States required 5 out of 9 years immediately preceding application and
1 year immediately preceding application and 19 of these also granted assistance
to those who lost sight while they were residents of the State. Two States
required 5 out of 9 years immediately preceding application and one of these gave
assistance to those who lost sight while they were residents of the State. One
jurisdiction required 5 out of 9 years immediately preceding applications. One
plan required residence of 2 out of 9 years immediately preceding application, and
1 year immediately preceding application. Six required 1 year, 1 required 6
months, and 1 had no residence requirement. For aid to dependent children,
there was no change from 1939.
SUMMARY OF TEENDS
The Social Security Act includes no requirement with regard to residence and
prohibits any requirement which excludes any resident of the State who has
resided therein 5 years during the 9 years immediately preceding the application
for old-age assistance or aid to the blind, and has resided therein continuously
for 1 year preceding the application ; also any requirement which imposes as a
condition of eligibility for aid to dependent children a residence requirement which
denies aid with respect to any child residing in the State: (1) Who has resided
in the State for 1 year immediately preceding application for such aid, or (2)
who was born within the State within 1 year immediately preceding the applica-
tion, if its mother has resided in the State for 1 year immediately preceding the
birth. There were only about 11 changes in the residence provisions for old-age
assistance from 1936 to 1940, of which about 6 liberalized the previous provision.
The minimum provision for any State is 6 months, and that was changed from a
provision of 5 out of 9 years preceding application and 1 year immediately pre-
ceding. In 1936 only about 21 percent of the approved plans had residence pro-
visions more liberal than the maximum permitted under the Social Security .A.ct,
while in 1940 about 25 percent had provisions more liberal than the permitted
maximum. For aid to the blind, there were about 13 changes, and about 9 of
these made the previous provision less restrictive. Only 1 State had no residence
provision for aid to the blind and 1 State reduced its provision to 6 months. In
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3511
1936 about 55 percent of the approved aid to the blind plans had a residence
provision more liberal than the maximum permitted under the Social Security Act,
while in 1940 about 67 percent had a more liberal provision. For aid to dependent
children, only about 3 changes occurred between 1936 and 1940, and 2 of these
made the residence requirement more restrictive than the previous one. Only
two plans had no residence provision.
OUT-OF-STATE PAYMENTS
About 35 States, affecting about 34 old-age assistance plans, 21 aid to the blind
plans, and about 20 aid to dependent children plans, permit payments to recipients
who temporarily leave the State. The period allowed ranges from 1 month to
1 year. About 7 States allow 1 month, 4 allow 1 year. The most frequent period
is about 3 months. Several States do not state a specific period, and many States
allow absence for longer periods, with special permission from the State agency.
SUPPLEMENT III TO STATEMENT BY JANE M. HOEY, DIRECTOR,
BUREAU OF PUBLIC ASSISTANCE, SOCIAL SECURITY BOARD
Provision for the Cake of Transients by State and Local General Re3.ip:f
Agencies
As a result of the reallocation of responsibilities for providing assistance or
employment to those in need which occurred when the Federal works program
and social-security program were inaugurated in 1935 and 1936, the States and
their local subdivisions were left with the responsibility of providing relief
to the groups not otherwise cared for. One of these is the transient group.
From May 1933 through December 1935, special provision was made through
the Federal Emergency Relief Administration for the care of transients. Be-
ginning in 1930, however, the State and local governments fell heir not only
to the burden of providing general relief but also to the problem of making
some provision for the care of transients.
The provision made by State and local governments, from general relief funds,
for the care of transients is indicated in table 1, which shows the nmnber of
States providing transient care in some form. It is possible that in some locali-
ties, special public funds for the care of transients are available, but the amounts
expended probably are not large ; the cost of such additional care as may be
provided is usually met from private funds. The data in table 1 were obtained
in a study of the organization for the administration of general relief in the
States, conducted by the Division of Public Assistance Re.search of the Social
Security Board.
The fact that in 40 of the 48 States some provision is made for transient
care would seem to indicate a fairly widespread acceptance of the responsibility
for providing this type of care. When it is noted, however, that in more than
half the States, not all local administrative agencies provide care, and that in
more than one-fourth the States, only overnight care is provided, the possibility
of ready access to this type of care becomes somewhat more remote. In addi-
tion to these shortcomings, it should be pointed out that (1) in at least 3
States, most of the overnight care is provided in jails, and (2) in 7 States,
care is provided only in emergencies or pending determination of legal settle-
ment.
In 8 States, transients receive the same type of care as residents. In 4 States,
this policy is State-wide : in 4 it is not. It should not be inferred, however, that
in these States, all transients are giverh resident care ; the classification simply
means that those transients which receive any care at all, receive resident care.
In addition to the provision of resident and overnight care, as indicated in
table 1, 18 States provide some shelter care for transients and/or local home-
less in about 85 shelters. In at least 2 other States, Salvation Army shelters
are subsidize<l from public general relief funds and used for the care of
transients.
Table 2 shows that in 37 States, some type of transportation is allowed
from public general relief funds, but the extent of the practice varies within
States. In only 22 of the 37 States do all local administrative agencies provide
transportation. Thirty-two States provide transportation to the transient's
legal residence, whereas in 5 States, the purpose of the allowance for trans-
portation is merely to remove the transient from the area of jurisdiction of
the administrative agency.
3512
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table 1. — Number of States providing care of transients from general relief
funds iy type of care and extent of practice in January 19JfO
Total
Number of States
in which specified
type of transient
care is provided
by-
All local
adminis-
trative
agencies
Some
local
adminis-
trative
agencies
Total -
40
18
22
8
20
4
4
10
4
8
10
Table 2. — Number of States providing transportation for transients from general
relief funds in January 1940
Total
Number of States
in which trans-
portation of tran-
sients is provided
by-
All local
adminis-
trative
agencies
Some
local
adminis-
trative
agencies
Total
137
22
115
132
5
19
3
J 13
Beyond jurisdiction of local agency - -
2
' In 1 State, only transportation to legal residence within the State is allowed.
STATEMENT OF JACK TATE, GENERAL COUNSEL, FEDERAL SECURITY
AGENCY
Settlement, Residence, and the Power of a State to Ex(7lude or Remove
NON SETTLED NEEDY PEBSONS
November 28, 1940.
Settlement, a creature of statute, differs from residence chiefly in the additional
condition that no public relief may be received during the period counted on.
What constitutes relief is a matter of policy differing from State to State. A
domiciliary of a State, if a citizen of the United States, would be a citizen of
the State, whereas citizenship and residence are not convertible terms. A man
may have several residences but only one domicile. Residence differs from
domicile in that its requirement of intention to remain is less stringent. Under
titles I, IV, and X of the Social Security Act, the Board has interpreted residence
as meaning physical presence without any present intention of removing. It is
held that short breaks in physical presence, so long as there is no intention
of abandoning residence, will neither prevent satisfaction of the residence require-
ment nor destroy a residence previously gained. In the interests of a Nation-
wide standard definition and to effectuate the policy of the act, technical
doctrines of settlement law, such as settlement by derivation, and conditions
thereon, such as nonsupport by the public authorities, have been found inapplica-
ble to residence under the Social Security Act titles, and are dealt with as
proscribed conditions.
The memorandum concludes with a brief discussion of the power of the States
to remove or exclude nonsettled needy persons in the light of the due process
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3513
and privileges and immunities clauses of the fourteenth amendment, the com-
merce clause, and the privileges and immunities clause of Article IV. section 2.
A balance must be struck between the national interest in freedom of locomotion
and the traditional power of the States to regulate the admission of paupers
when regulation is a matter of vital necessity.
Unlike "residence" which has well-accepted connotations, "settlement" is
a term which has been defined by statute. It is to the State laws that we must
look for matters relating to settlement requirements, including the determina-
tion of the periotls to be included and excluded in computing the residence neces-
sary to establish settlement {City of Camhridge v. Town of West Springfield,
20 N. E. (2d) 432 (Mass. 1939) ; Wrohlcski v. Toirn of Swan River, 204 Minn.
264, 283 N. W. 399). "Today, a period of self-supporting residence, varying
from 1 to 5 years, is required in nearly all States for the acquisition of 'settle-
ment'— i. e., eligibility for relief" (Interstate Migration and Personal Liberty,
40 Columbia Law Review, 1032, 1033). In the American Public Welfare Asso-
ciation Compilation of the Settlement Laws of All States in the United States
(1939) may be found the requirements, including such factors as the length of
residence necessary to acquire settlement, period of absence to lose settlement,
the enforcement of relief and removal of nonresidents, and regulations against
the transportation of unsettled poor. The survey reveals that the 1939 legisla-
tures of Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, and Minnesota, tightened State
requirements for settlement. Instead of 1 year, Colorado, Illinois, and Indiana
now make 3 years' residence necessary before relief will be given. Minnesota
increased the time from 1 year to 2. Kansas raised the requirement from 1 to 5
years.
Nonsupport, of course, is an important element in most State laws. The books
are replete with opinions devoted to the consideration of what types of assistance
will bar the acquisition of a settlement. Thus, in Mihvaukee County v. Oconto
County (294 N. W. 11 (Wis. 1940)) a distinction was taken between hospitaliza-
tion to protect the public from the spread of virulent and contagious disease
and ordinary medical care given poor persons. It is also intimated that once
a pauper's status is fastened upon an individual, a continuance will be presumed
when aid is received from private charities.
Generally the pauper laws provide that a settlement may not be gained
during the period that relief is extended to the person, his wife, or minor child.
It has been held that relief is received when bills for services are paid, not when
the services are rendered. (In re Youngquist, 203 Minn. 530, 282 N. W. 732).
Much hinges on the language of the settlement law on whether a particular type
of assistance will be held to be relief. In Pennsylvania, unemployment relief is
not suflScient to prevent acquisition of a settlement (In re Commitment of
Dennis, 135 Pa. Super. 237, 5 Atl. (2d) 406). It is likewise held that the receipt
of mother's aid is no bar to gaining a settlement (In re Youngquist, 203 Minn.
530, 282 N. W. 732 ; Town of St. Jolmsbury v. Toivn of Lyndon, 107 Vt. 404, 180
Atl. 892 ; In re Skog, 186 Minn. 349, 243 N. W. 384 ; Milwaukee County v. Waukesha
County, Dane County Circuit Court, April 23, 1940). In the Skog case the court
held that it did not matter that the funds were obtained by taxes nominally levied
for poor relief. However, the contrary has been held in In re Barnes (119 Pa.
Super. 537, 180 Atl. 718). In Treasurer v. Toimi of Dedham (15 N. E. (2d)
252 (Mass.) ) it was held that the father of a minor daughter could not acquire a
new settlement during the period the daughter's board as an inmate of the Massa-
chusetts Hospital School was paid by the town of former legal settlement, and
so the daughter did not obtain a derivative settlement through the father. In
Destitute Home v. Fayette County Almshouse (72 Pa. Super. 491 (1919)) the
court held that one receiving aid as a pauper could not acquire a settlement in
any other district so long as that relationship existed, although a new statute
provided that a legal settlement could be acquired by coming bona fide to inhabit
and continuing to reside there. One receiving assistance from another district
could not be deemed a bona fido resident because by surreptitious assistance one
poor district could fasten the burden on a neighboring district. The dissent
argued that the statute did not say either in terms or in spirit that to change
a settlement a man must give up his old one and abjure the necessities of exist-
ence during the period before establishing the new settlement.
If the statute refers only to relief from the State or its subdivisions. Work
Projects Administration is not considered relief (Wroblcski v. Swan River. 204
Minn. 264, 283 N. W. 399). When it specifies relief from the Federal Government,
Work Projects Administration will preclude the gaining of a new settlement (In
re Matruski, 169 Misc. 316, 8 N. Y. Supp. (2d) 471; In re Youngs, 172 Mi.sc. 155,
3514 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
14 N. Y. Supp. (2d) 800; City of Minneapolis v. County of Beltrami, 206 Minn.
371 288 N. W. 706; 27 Wis. A. G. 177). See also Dibner v. Cousminer (157 Misc.
229, 283 N. Y. Sup. 369; cf. Ward County v. Ankenhauer, 65 N. D. 220, 257 N. W.
474). The attorney general of New York (December 12, 1935), the solicitor gen-
eral of New York (September 21, 1936), and the attorneys general of Illimns
(Opin. III. Atty. Gen. 19.37, p. 251) and Indiana (Indiana UnofC. Op. Atty. Gen.
June 6, 1938) were of the opinion that Work Projects Administration is self-suffi-
cient employment and not relief in the sense of their respective welfare laws.
Under the statute in Connecticut it has been held that one may gain a settle-
ment while being supported by the place of former settlement {Town of Plain-
villc V. Town of Southington, 80 Conn. 659, 69 Atl. 1049). The court reserved
the question of what would be done if assistance were provided by the first town
for the purpose of unloading the needy person on another town.
With respect to the policy of the settlement laws, Bentham said long ago
(Truth against Ashurst, p. 234) :
"There is no employment for me in my own Parish ; there is abundance in the
next. Yet if I offer to go there, I am driven away. Why? Because I might
become unable to work one of these days, and so I must not work while I am able.
I am thrown upon one Parish now for fear I should fall upon another 40 or 50
years hence. At this rate how is work ever to get done?"
On a less dejected note is the comment of W. Wallace Weaver in his review of
Webb and Brown, Migrant Families, appearing in the Annals, January 1940,
p. 251 :
"The transient bureaus have been objects of calumny because they have facili-
tated the relocation of families rather than forcing them back onto the com-
munities from which they had escaped. A hodge-podge of State and local 'settle-
ment laws,' relics of medieval provincialism, penalize honest migrants and leave
'parasites' substantially unhindered."
An account of remedies proposed before the acuteness of the problem of
migrants was intensified by mechanization, low cotton prices, depression, and
drought is found in Donnell. Settlement Law and Interstate Relationships,
4 Social Service Review 427, 450.
Of the plight of nonsettled persons shunted back and forth between North
Dakota and South Dakota, the North Dakota Supreme Court, in Adams County
V. BiDleigh County (291 N. W. 281), observed :
"It is difficult for the writer of this opinion to pass calmly and dispassionately
upon the facts in this case and the law governing the same. One would fain
suppress much of the evidence, but necessary facts must be set forth. To the
credit of the Government of this country and the general attitude of our people
toward the poor and unfortunate, it may well be said few records show any such
callousness toward human beings as this controversy between South Dakota
and North Dakota discloses. The case is an illustration of the extent to which
'man's inhumanity to man' may be carried. Human beings are shifted around
like so much cargo. Somewhere and somehow the wellsprings of humanity and
brotherhood appear to be dried up."
The jurisdictions can be arrayed in two camps, those which say that settlement
is the same as residence and those which say that they differ. The Seidel case
(204 Minn. 3.^)7. 283, N. W. 742) demonstrates that a court mny be liberal in its
interpretation of the type of presence const^ituting a settlement and illiberal when
it comes to deciding what constitutes a residence within the public assistance laws.
Although the Supreme Court of Minnesota, in Toirn of Sniileii v. Village of St.
Hilnire (183 Minn. 533, 237 N. W. 416), held that the pauper law would be morv^
workable if the word "reside" were construed to relate to a temporary living,
where a man exists, not a technical legal residence, that court held in the Seidel
case that "residence," as used in the old-age assistance law, meant physical
presence coupled with an intention to make a home there. The court reasoned
that the poor-relief law was nn empraency ni'^asuro pnd H\9 old-ase assistance law
a reward for past service and good citizenship. In England residence in relation
to the law of pauper settlement also requires that it be a fixed place of abode. A
short absence does not operate as a break in the residence (Farnham Union v.
Cambridge Union (1929), K. B. 307). (See also J. E. Graham, Can a Poor Law
Settlement Change During Chargeability? 23 Jurid. Review 281.) in New Eng-
land settlement is nracticalb- equivalent to residence (Tnhnhitnnts of Tovn of
Goiildshoro v. Itilwhitants of Tonm of Sullivan (Maine), 170 Atl. 900; Inhahitants
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3515
of Whatley v. Inhabitants of HatficU, 196 Mass. 393, 82 N. E. 48 ; Town of Madison
V. Town of Guilford, 85 Conn. 55, 81 Atl. 1046) . Even for settlement, a short
break does not destroy a settlement {Iiihdhitaiits of Moscow v. Solon, 136 Maine
220, 7 Atl. (2d) 729). " In the Gouldshoro case the court said that for a settlement
to exist there must be a combination of physical presence with the intention to
remain. The intention must be, not to make the place a home temporarily, but to
make it a real home. At the same time, it is not necessary to have a particular
home to which one may return as a matter of right (InhaUtants of Warren v.
Inhabitants of Thomaston. 43 Maine 406; Inhabitants of Madison v. Fairfidd,
132 Maine 182, 168 Atl. 782). But the Maine court sometimes distinguishes be-
tween residence and legal settlement. In Phillips v. Kingsfield (19 Maine 375),
the court held that legal settlement, unlike residence, cannot be changed without
acquiring a new one. In another Maine case, Inhabitants of Warren v. Inhabit-
ants of Thomaston (43 Maine 406), the court said, at page 418:
"In our pauper law the terms 'residence, dwellirg place, home' have a different
meaning from the word 'settlement.' The place of one's settlement is a place
where such a person has a legal right to support as a pauper. It may be in a
place other than the one where such pauper has his dwelling place, home, or
residence. Thus a person may have a settlement in a place where he has not had
a residence, as by derivation. So, too, a person may have a residence or home
different from their settlement."
In Minnesota a settlement is not lost by removal therefrom. It is lost when
a new one is acquired elsewhere or when there is absence from the State (In re
Ventcichcr, 202 Minn. 331, 278 N. W. 581 ; Petersburg Township v. City of Jackson,
186 Minn. 509, 243 N. W. 695). In Cittj of Detroit Lakes v. Village of Utchfiehl
(200 Minn. 349, 274 N. W. 236), under a statute providing that every person who
has resided 1 year continuously in any county should be deemed to have a settle-
ment therein, the court held that the fact of remaining or living at a place, regard-
less of intention to make it one's domicile, is what counts in determining a pauper
settlement. Two periods of less than a year could not be tacked together to make
up the year, but a man within the State more than a year was chargeable to the
county where he spent the longest period next preceding his application for aid.
In North Dakota a settlement within a county may be acquired by 1 year's
residence therein. A man within the State for more than a year had a settlement
in the county where his stay was longest. Once acquired, a settlement continued
until a new one was acquired or until there was a voluntary absence for more
than a year. A settlement acquired within a county by a year's presence, unlike
a settlement otherwise obtained, might be lost by voluntary absence from the
county for more than a year or by acquiring a new residence in another comity
by residing there 1 year (City of Enderlm v. Pontiac Township, 62 N. D. 105,
242 N. W. 117). Residence was said to differ from domicile in being actual, n;;!
legal.
A requirement of nonsupport before residence within the meaning of the aged,
blind, and children's titles could be gained would be violative of the basic purposes
of the Social Seciirity Act and the variety of conditions attached to settlement
would be incompatible with the requisite uniformity for a Nation-wide scheme.
Particularly with respect to the children's program would be a carry-over of the
doctrine of settlement by derivation from the father's last settlement have been
disruptive.
The undesirability of construing residence and settlement as convertible terms
is nowhere better illustrated than in Toivn of Bethlehem v. Toivn of Foxbury
(20 Conn. 298). There it was held that an illegitimate born in New York in 1811
of a woman having a settlement, who was brought into Connecticut in 1814, where
his mother continued to live without ever having lost her settlement, although
with occasional residences in New York and Massachusetts, had a settlement Ity
birth in New York and did not take the settlement of his mother in Connecticut.
In 1847 the question of the settlement of the illegitimate's legitimate children
arose. The principles applied were (1) an illegitimate does not take the settle-
ment of its mother, but is settled where born, by the laws of New York ; (2) hav-
ing a settlement in New York, he could not at the same time have one in Connect-
icut, although in Connecticut an illegitimate does not take a settlement by birth.
If New York law had not given the child a settlement, he would have taken a set-
tlement in Connecticut. "Had he lived with his mother in Connecticut, he would
have taken a new settlement, had she acquired one. But she acquired none ; and
3516
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
no case can be found which has gone beyond the acquisition of a new settlement
by the mother." So the grandchildren, 36 years later, take the settlement of their
father acquired in 1811. The dissent thought that the law of New York gave
the illegitimate the settlement of its mother ; that when the mother returned, the
illegitimate's settlement should have followed hers.^
By reason of local peculiarities and differences which would militate against
Nation-wide uniform definition of the term "residence" within the purview of
the Social Security Act, it is apparent that acceptance of the vagaries of State
nomenclature and of their understanding would have led to endless confusion
and nullification of the residence requirements of the Federal act. Accordingly,
it has been found necessary to provide a uniform Federal definition of residence
in the Federal act not dependent on local variations. Cf. Lyeth v. Hoey (305 U. S.
188), where the Supreme Court held that although in Massachusetts when a will
is admitted to probate under a compromise agreement, the State succession tax
is applied to the property that passes by the terms of the will as written, and
not as changed by any agreement for compromise, Congress in exempting from
the Federal income tax the value of property acquired by gift, bequest, devise,
or inheritance intended to provide a uniform rule not dependent on divergent
State views whether assets received by an heir from his ancestors' estate through
compromise was to be regarded as having its origin in contract or as coming
to the heir as such.
We must therefore look to residence as it has been interpreted, noting wherein
it differs from both settlement and domicile. "* * * a person may have two
places of 'residence,' as in the city and country, but only one 'domicile' * * *.
'Residence' simply requires bodily presence as an inhabitant in a given place,
while 'domicile' requires bodily presence in that place, and also an intention to
make it one's domicile" {Matter of Newcomh's Estate, 192 N. T. 238, 250; 84 N. E.
950, 954). Residence is more than mere physical presence in a place. It de-
pends on purpose and intention and upon what contingencies one expects to
leave. In general, residence implies presence at some place of abode with no
present intention of definite and early removal, and with a purpose to remain
for an undetermined period, not infrequently but not necessarily combined with
a design to stay permanently {City of Cambridge v. Town of West Springfield,
20 N. E. (2d) 432, 434 (Mass. 1939)). Citizenship and residence are not the
same thing, nor does one include the other {La Tourette v. McMaster, 248 U. S.
465). Even with respect to domicile, an intention to abandon a former home may
coexist with an indefinite or floating intention to return at some time to the
abandoned domicile and again make a home there {Ooodloe v. Hawk, 113 F. (2d)
753, 755 (C. A. D. C.) ; Beale, Conflict of Latvs, sec. 18.2 p. 145). But there must
be a conjunction of physical presence and animus manendi in the new location
to bring about a domiciliary change, and no length of residence without the
intention of remaining will constitute a domicile {District of Columbia v. Siveeney,
113 F. (2d) 25 (0. A. D. 0.), cert. den. 310 U. S. 631; Ex parte Bullen (Ala.),
181 So. 498 ; Felker v. Henderson, 78 N. H. 509, 102 Atl. 623, 624 ; Story, Conflict of
Laws (7th ed.), sec. 46).
The residence requirements for old-age assistance are not uniform.
Thirty-eight States provide for a residence requirement of 5 out of the 9 years
preceding application, the last year of which must immediately precede appli-
cation. These States are:
Arizona Louisiana North Dakota
California Maine Ohio
Colorado Maryland • Oklahoma
Connecticut Massachusetts Oregon
Delaware Michigan Pennsylvania
District of Columbia Minnesota South Carolina
Florida Missouri Tennessee
Idaho Montana Texas
Illinois Nebraska Utah
Indiana Nevada Virginia
Iowa New Jersey Wisconsin
Kansas New Mexico Wyoming
Kentucky New York
lOn the settlement of a child under 16, see 67 J. P. 493; 70 J. P. 387, 397; 71
J. P. 314.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3517
Alaska and Hawaii provide for a residence requirement of 5 out of the 9
years preceding application but do not specify that 1 year must immediately
precede application.
Washington provides for a residence requirement of 5 out of 10 years preced-
ing application, 1 year of which must immediately precede application. Vermont
requires 5 out of 10 years residence but does not specify that 1 year must imme-
diately precede application.
Six States — Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi, Rhode Island, and West
Virginia — have a residence requirement of 1 year. New Hampshire requires
only 6 months' residence.
North Carolina provides for a residence requirement of 2 out of 5 years and 1
year immediately preceding application; however, since the question was raised
by the Social Security Board as to whether this provision was in agreement with
the provisions of the Social Security Act, the State Board of Charity and Public
Welfare, with the approval of the State attorney general and the Governor,
passed a resolution making applicants eligible for old-age assistance who had
resided in the State for 5 out of the 9 years preceding application and 1 year
immediately preceding application.
South Dakota provides for a residence requirement of 2 out of the 9 years
preceding application and 1 year immediately preceding application.
Iowa has an alternative that an applicant may have a domicile in the State
and has had such domicile continuously for at least 9 years immediately pre-
ceding date of application, but such domicile shall not be considered continuous
if interrupted by periods of absence totaling more than 4 years.
In Minnesota, residents who have not resided in the State for 5 of the last 9
years but who have been residents for 2 or more years immediately preceding
application may take credit on a percentage basis for residence in the State prior
to the 9-year period immediately preceding application.
Nebraska considers an applicant eligible who has been at any time a resident for
25 consecutive years and 1 year immediately preceding application.
Two elements must concur in order to qualify an individual as a resident of a
State for the purposes of establishing eligibility for aid under titles I, IV, and X,
of the Social Security Act as amended. These elements are (1) physical habita-
tion within the State and (2) intent to reside therein. Physical habitation as
used in this connection does not require unbroken presence in the State, and is
consistent with temporary absence. As long as it may be satisfactorily established
that the absence from the State was a temporary one, and that the individual
intended to return at a definite time or after the happening of a certain event,
this absence will not interrupt his residence. It follows that the State cannot
refuse to pay assistance except upon the condition of continued presence within
the State ; moreover, this would constitute a restrictive condition upon the pay-
ment. Under the act only unrestricted payments may be matched. The inten-
tion need not be to remain in the State forever, it being sufficient to dwell within
the State with no intention of presently removing therefrom. A person may
acquire residence in a jurisdiction for public assistance even though during part
of the time claimed as a residence he received public aid from the same or another
jurisdiction. It is necessary, however, that a person seeking to establish a new
residence be capable of forming the requisite intent.
In interpreting residence in connection with eligibility for public assistance it is
also recognized that married women living apart from their husbands may ac-
quire a separate residence and that a child who has been physically present within
the State and living in a place of residence maintained by one of the relatives
enumerated in section 406 (a) has satisfied the residence requirement regardless
of the fiction applied in other branches of the law that his residence follows that
of his father. That fiction is not permitted to operate to the detriment of the
child.
No State may impose any county residence requirement which would dis-
qualify an applicant meeting the maximum State residence requirements permitted
under the Federal Act. The State may not restrict the freedom of applicants or
recipients to move about the State by threatening a denial of assistance. County
residence rules may be established only for the administrative purpose of deciding
which county shall be charged for the assistance.
3518
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Present-day population movements " have brought to the fore the power of the
State of ultimate destination to control the movements of migrants and seasonal
workers either by exclusion or by expulsion. With the labor market in most
of the cities glutted, many migrants become at once objects of local or Federal
relief. The New York State Department of Social Welfare estimates that it
costs $3,000,000 a year to support nonresidents. Surprisingly, although there is a
wealth of literature on the power to exclude and to expel (see, e. g., Interstate
Migration and Personal Liberty, 40 Columbia L. Rev., 1032-1049 (June 1940)) ;
Depression Migrants and the States, 53 Harv. L. Rev. 1031-1042 (April 1940), and
F. L. Dunlap, Power of State to Prevent Entry of Paupers from other States,
''6 Calif L Review 603), and although "New York State officials lemoved 4,079
persons from the State in 1936-37 and 2,832 in 1&37-38 (40 Col. L. Rev. 1032, 1033)
no appellate decisions passing on the question are available. It is explained that
"only a very few of these removals required the compulsion of a court order, most
being accomplished by means of persuasion, or mere threats of enforcing thie
law." (Ibid.)
In the one case which might have served to settle the question, In re ChirilJo
(283 N. Y. 417, 28 N. E. (2d) 895) , the Court of Appeals found that the question on
direct appeal from the county court was not properly before it since in addition to
the issue of constitutionality there was also a construction question. The migrant
had lived in Wooster, Ohio, until January 1939, when he moved to Mamaroneck.
Home relief in Ohio averaged $15.99 ; in New York generally, $36.12, and in West-
chester County where Mamaroneck is situated, $40.18. Judge Finch, in a dissent
on the procedural point in which Judges Rippey and Lewis concurred, answered in
the negative the question, "Is it a privilege or immunity of a citizen of the United
States to impose upon any State of his choice the burden of supporting himself
and his family before he has satisfied reasonable settlement qualiiications, as in
the case at bar, of 1 year?" He treated the issue in terms of the State's ability to
defend itself against threats to its security and solvency. He emphasized that
under the rules of the State Department of Welfare removal was considered only
on a case-work basis having regard for the welfare of the individual and the*
State, and on authorization from the locality of settlement.
Judge Finch stated :
"Section 71 does not interfere with the right of a citizen of one State to
pass through or reside in any other State. Only if on coming from another
State he applies for relief at public expense, to which he has no constitutional
right, he is bound to accept the relief cum overe, or with the limitations of the
reasonable provisions of the public- welfare law of New York State. If it be
for his welfare and for the welfare of the State, he then sub.K>crs himself to the
possibility of being compelled to return to the State wherein he has a legal
settlement."
Judge Finch repelled challenges on the score of the fourteenth amendment
and the commerce and privileges and immunities clauses by pointing out the
antecedents of section 71 of the welfare law went back to 1350; that the burden
on commerce was slight and necessary to protect the people from the spread
of crime and disease and dissipation of the financial resources and that classi-
f;qation was reasonable.
Chirillo has obtained an order from the United States District Court for the
Southern District of New York directing the Governor and others to show
cause on December 5 why they should not be restrained from deporting the
family.
The Columbia Law Review note concludes its analysis as follows :
"Constitutional objections to State removal and extlusion laws may be found
in the two privileges and immunities clauses ; the stronger grounds for attack,
however, lie in the commerce and due process clauses. The commerce clause
presents the large political question of the extent to which the States in
relio^'ing themselves of the severe burdens resulting from Federal inaction may
trespass on a national interest. The tendency of exclusion and expulsion laws
= It has been estimated that 241,930 individuals entered California between July 1935,
and March 1938. Taylor and Rowell, Refugee Labor Migration to California, Monthly
Labor Review, August 1938, p. 240.
^ In California, an order to return a family of S who arrived in Kings County from
ISIissouri on October 19. 1939, was obtained on November 4, 1939, New York Times,
November 5, 1939. The family admittedly came because of higher relief payments.
i::TElLiSTATE ZvlIGRATlON 3519
to isolate States from tbe national economy and to raise an impassible (sic)
network of barriers to the free movement of a considerable section of the
population may well induce a finding of invalidity. The issue under the due
process clause, involving a balancing of personal and State interests, will
assume a different complexion depending on whether or not the court recog-
nizes in freedom of movement a 'civil liberty' comparable to those usually
associated with the phrase."
Madden v. Kentucky (309 U. S. 83), the recent decision of the Supreme Court
overruling Colgate v. Harvey (296 U. S. 404), apparently adopts the dissent
of Mr. Justice Stone in Colgate v. Harvey, page 446, and indicates that the
Hague case (307 U. S. 496) will be confined within a narrow compass. Hence
the right of locomotion as a privilege of citizens of the United States secured
against al)ridgement (cf. Williams v. Fears (179 U. S. 270)) may not )»e opera-
tive to prevent exercise by the States of the power to refuse admittance to
and deport "paupers" ^ however inconsistent with the national welfare is a
policy compelling the retransference of population from the areas offering
greater opportunities to the less habitable areas, particularly since in Supreme
Court dicta the power to exclude in self -protection has been conceded. Hannibal
& St. Joseph R. Co. v. Husen (95 U. S. 465, 472) ; Henderson v. Mayor (92 U. S.
259, 275) ; Chy Lung v. Freeman (92 U. S. 275, 280).
Either it has been taken for granted by many States that indigent persons
may be excluded from the State by a border patrol or "bum blockade" or
impoverished persons have not had the means to appeal to the courts. As to
the class which might be covered, it seems clear that the distinguishing char-
acteristic would have to be more than mere poverty, for the exclusion of
people willing and able to work could hardly be justified as arising from
vital necessity. In City of Bangor v. Sniifh (83 Maine 422, 22 Atl. 379), it was
held that a railroad could not be held liable by a State if the people it trans-
ported into the State subsequently became paupers. To impose such a lia-
bility would be to burden interstate commerce.
Apart from exclusion or expulsion there are other measures which States,
which feel they are bearing an undue proportion of the expense of caring for
the destitute of other regions, may adopt.- Poor people may be excluded from
the State by means of exemplary prosecutions for vagrancy. This may be
more effective than proceedings for removal since there are doubts as to
whether the jurisdiction of the courts and administrative oflScials extends
to removal outside the State. Donnell, Laws Regarding Settlement in Connec-
tion with the Problem of Interstate Relationship Under a Federal System, 4
Social Service Review 427, 444; Hilhorn v. Briggs (58 N. D. 612, 226 N W 737) •
Custer County v. ReicheU (293 N. W. 862 (S. D. 1940)) ; Juniata Co. v. Dela-
ware Toimship (107 Pa. St. 68) ; Limestone v. Chilllsqvaqne (87 Pa. St. 294) ;
Georgia v. Orand Isle (1 Vt. 464) ; Informal Opinion (No. 973, Pa. Atty. Gen.',
June 30, 1939). But compare: 8 Johns. (N. Y.) 412; 4 City Hall Record
(N. Y.) 43; Bo^vUn v. Archer (157 Ky. 540, 163 S. W. 477).
In mate v. Lange (148 Kans. 614, 83 P. (2d) 652), the court held that the
social-welfare act containing provisions dealing with transient persons likely
to become public charges and having no legal settlement within the county
where they were found was intended to constitute an independent code, super-
seding a prior statute authorizing removal, and held that the earlier statute
was impliedly repealed. The court disapproved of the summary procedure
and mentioned the constitutional problem of laws of jurisdiction as soon as
the person deported was outside the State under the superseding section au-
thorizing the State board to enter into reciprocal agreements with other States
in regard to the manner of determining the State of settlement in disputed
cases.
Perhaps the simplest device to discourage migration is the warning notice.
Any stay in the community within 1 year after receipt of the notice does not
count toward the acquisition of a settlement. Even in relation to the settlement
law such notices were looked upon with disfavor, and there had to be an exact
J- Used here as coverhig persons in immediate need of assistance, not as a term of
obloquy. It is used instead of "indigent" because the sources of the States' supnosed
powers are historically identified with the poor or pauper laws supijoseu
3520
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
conformity with the statutory provisions. (Emmet Co. v. Dally (216 Iowa 166,
''48 N W. 366).) However, a warning to depart given to one likely to become a
public charge means that such person cannot acquire a settlement within any
county except by the completion of 1 year without further warning. {Cass Co. v
Audnion Co. (221 Iowa, 1037, 266 N. W. 293).) These warning notices would be
ineffective to prevent the gaining of a residence under public-assistance laws
because they have no statutory basis and are repugnant to the Federal Social
Security Act (See Heisterman. Removal of Nonresident State Poor by State
and Local Authorities (8 Social Service Review, 289-301, June 1939).)
Recommendations for ameliorating the distress of the migrants and for absorb-
ing them into the life of the community are made in Migratory Labor : A Report
to the President, by the Interdepartmental Committee to Coordinate Health and
Welfare Activities, July 1940 ; Hazel Hendricks, Farmers Without Farms, Atlantic
Monthly, October 1940; Buel W. Patch, Problem of the Migrant Unemployed,
2 Editorial Research Reports, pages 26^26 ; Philip E. Ryan, Migration and Social
Welfare • Philip E. Ryan, Relief for Transients, Survey Midmonthly, September
1940, page 251 ; Congressional Record, March 30, 1989, page 5007 ; W. P. A. report.
TESTIMONY OF JANE M. HOEY AND JACK B. TATE— Eesumed
Mr. Sparkman. I wonder if at this time you might not discuss for
the committee the more important points referred to in your prepared
statements.
Miss HoEY. I will be very glad to do that. It seems to me that we
must agree there is some legitimate migration ; that the United States
was settled, after all, by migrants, including your family and mine,
probably ; that we do not want to have that suppressed in any sense ;
that where it is not possible for people to earn a living, they ought to
have the right to move to another place where they can earn a living.
So if it is possible to do that in an orderly way, through the use of
employment exchanges, and notifying people ahead of time where
there are opportunities for earning a living, it seems to me that that
is the only way in which we can legitimately control this migration.^
I believe from my own long experience in the public- welfare field
practically all of these people could be made an asset in any community
if given the opportunity.
There are different types of migrants, of course. There are some
agricultural migrants, some industrial migrants, and other people who
go because of ill health, such as those who go to Arizona and New
Mexico; and many of those who have had an opportunity to recover
became an asset to the coimnunity in which they resided.
Likewise, it seems to me also that perhaps the problem has seemed
only a problem and as a liability because there was so much migration
to particular areas, like California, where you had very large num-
bers of people with inadequate care of them. There were health and
welfare problems that arose out of that migration.
Today, with the defense industries, and with camps being set up in
almost every State, every one of those States has a migrant problem.
So that I believe that now there will be a recognition that some
people who come in from the outside may be an asset and desirable,
and may be necessary in order to have a proper labor supply in con-
nection with the defense industries.
It seems to me, as a matter of fact, a little more sympathetic attitude
on the part of the States toward this problem is necessary because
it now affects on so wide a scale all of the States.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3521
NEEDS or DISTRESSED PEOPLE NOT MET
In the programs which had been developed, both, the Federally ad-
ministered programs and the Federal grants-in-aid programs, I be-
lieve we must recognize that all of those together have never met
the total needs of the people in distress; that the Work Projects Ad-
ministration appropriations have never been large enough to take
care of even all of the able-bodied employable people who could not
find jobs in private industry; that there was another group of people
where there was no employable person in the family, or where through
some handicap they could not qualify for these programs. There
was a large group there of both employables and unemployables, and
families with no working member who have not had anything except
very inadequate provision made for them, or none at all. It was
left entirely to the localities.
There are some counties in the United States that have no public
funds, except, perhaps, for hospital care or medical care for persons
in emergency illness.
PEOPEKTY TAX CANNOT SUPPORT RELIEF
We have found that in most States, in practically every community,
the chief source of revenue both to support all the governmental
functions and at the same time to support the public-assistance pro-
grams and the general relief comes from a property tax, and that
very often, in your rural area particularly, your Dust Bowl areas,
and many other areas as well, that is not sufficient to support the
relief program as well as to maintain necessary governmental
expenditures.
There must be some assistance in financing these programs from
State funds as well as local funds. I assume that that is what Con-
gress had in mind in recognizing in our public-assistance programs
that there must be State financial participation as well as local funds
available where it was not a State-administered program.
Therefore I believe that if we have found it necessary in relation
to the aged, and blind, and children, it would be equally necessary,
if you had a general relief program, that there be some State funds
in it as well as local and Federal funds.
However, 12 States have not assumed any responsibility in the gen-
eral relief program in the way of financing, and it is left entirely to
the communities, and that very inadequately, in most instances.
Even in our programs where the Federal act does not require citizen-
ship for persons to be eligible, and merely says that a citizen may not
be excluded if otherwise eligible, aiid where it says that there cannot
be in excess of 5 out of 9 years of residence required for the aged and
blind, the States have not taken advantage of that but have copied
this maximum in the Federal act, even though Federal funds werc-
available, if they took care of the ones that came in under the 5 years.
It seems to me that there must be some more pressure brought if
those other people are to be taken care of, and there would have to
be something written in terms of prohibition against excluding persons
3^22 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
on the basis of residence if you are going to give adequate care to the
residents and migrants as well in this general-relief category.
DEFENSE EMPLOYMENT LIMITED
The assumption has been in many places that the defense program
would take up the labor supply, and that all employable people would
be taken care of. I think that probably that is not accurate. At least
it has not been the experience to date. Those have not been located
broadly enough to take care of all the people, resident and nonresident
employables.
The defense industries in many instances are requiring skilled
workers, and we find in the general relief group that there are many
people who are unskilled. The majority are unskilled or during the
long period of unemployment have lost their skills.
Therefore I think even in the employable group the defense in-
dustry will not take care of all of that group.
Then, as I mentioned before, there is a whole group where they have
no employable member of the family, so that the defense industry
would not affect that group at all.
I mentioned in my memorandum the fact that the vocational-re-
habilitation prograni^ might be extended so that more people might be
trained ; if not to go back to private industry, there might be supple-
mentary jobs which they could secure. The present vocational-re-
habilitation program, as I understand it, is limited to persons who it
is decided can go back to competitive industry. There is another group
that, if they liave an opportunity to be trained carefully and placed
on an individualized basis, they can be made at least partially self-
supporting, if not fully self-supporting. For example, the blind
group, where in one State they were trained as mattress makers and
placed in State industries where previously when a mattress became
soiled they had to throw it away. These people are employed to
re-cover those at a saving to the State. There was a very careful
training and placement of those in terms of their skills.
There has been a good deal of discussion about whether, if you had
a general relief program, it might be a federally administered pro-
gram and perhaps tied up with a works program. I believe that
would be more desirable, since you already have State administration
and local administration of the three assistance programs, than to
have some members of the family cared for through a federally admin-
istered assistance program and the others through a locally admin-
istered assistance program. I think that would not be desirable. It
is not quite the same with having a works program which is adminis-
tered federally, because the certification as to the need is made by the
welfare departments to that works agency.
ADMINISTRATION OF RELIEF PRESENTS PROBLEMS
Another suggestion which has been made is a 100-percent grant to
the States to take care of the migrants. My objection to that is con-
cerned with administration. Also objectionable is the precedent that
is set by any assumption by the Federal Government of full financing
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3523
of a program which is totally locally and State administered. If you
did not have a program which covered the residents who are not now
being cared for and who are now in need, you merely build up more
antagonism toward the migrants, and therefore an attempt to classify
people as migrants in order to get the 100-percent grant. So that I
have some question as to the desirability of that administratively.
Also, I believe if you have a program, part of which is — that is,
there is some local financing and State financing in it, and another
part which is 100-percent federally financed, you get a great many
problems, so it would be desirable to have the same basis for the three
categories that we now have, and have a fourth category of general
relief on a 50-percent basis.
Personally I feel also that the States and localities have a great
deal more sense of responsibility as to who goes on the program,
as to setting up restrictions and standards if they are partially
financed in the States as well as getting a Federal grant.
The question is, of course, that whatever you do, if you give even
a 100 percent grant, there is a greater urge for States to pass appro-
priate legislation to match the Federal act. But even with a 50-
percent grant, in a 5-year period, the States have taken advantage of
it ; all but 8 of them have taken advantage of our 3 programs.
The old-age assistance is, of course, a more popular program.
There are more people who are old and articulate about their needs,
so we have had for nearly 3 years 51 units for the aged program and
43 for the blind and the children. I think the States would un-
doubtedly take advantage of a fourth category and pass appropriate
legislation fairly quickly because of the great drain this is on their
resources.
The only question is in those States where you have very limited
funds and there seems little possibility of their being able to finance
on a broader basis, even if there were 50 percent Federal funds
available.
Mr. Sparkman. Miss Hoey, I am particularly interested in that
part of your statement having to do with the participation of the
Federal Government. You would recommend a straight-out match-
ing basis ?
Miss Hoey. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Just as you have in all of the other 3 categories
now?
Miss Hoey. Fifty percent on cost of administration and assistance
up to a maximum.
Mr. Sparkman. You have just made reference to the fact that
the old-age assistance was your most popular one. Perhaps you can
tell the committee much more accurately than I, but as I recall, in
my own State, which is of course one of those that j^ou might call
of low economic opportunity, the amount of participation in the old-
ao-e assistance I believe is an average of a little less than $10 a
month.
Miss Hoey. In Alabama?
Mr. Sparkman. Yes.
Miss Hoey. Yes.
260370— 41— pt. '
or 24 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkman. To those to whom anything is paid As a matter
of fact, I believe that only about one-third of those that should be
getting that old-age assistance are getting it at all.
Miss HoEY. That is true.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you believe that my State could participate on
a 50-50 basis?
NEW GRANTS FOR LOW-INCOME STATES
Miss HoEY That is what I mentioned, that I think there must be
additional Federal funds to the States where they have low economic
resources. , ^ , ■ ^ i j.x. 4. •
Mr. Sparkman. I did not quite understand you to include that m
this discussion. I was anxious for you to include it. . , , ^ ^,
Miss HoEY. I did not mention the variable grant. 1 said that they
could not take advantage, you see, even though there was a Federal
matching of 50 percent, because of low economic resources. My
answer would be a variable grant, which I did not indicate before.
Mr. Sparkman. I am sorry I missed that. I was very anxious tor
that to be in the record.
Miss HoEY. Yes. .1 . • .i
Mr Sparkman. I believe, as a matter of fact, that is the recom-
mendation of the Social Security Board as to the other three cate-
gories, is it not?
Miss HoEY. Yes. We have made that repeatedly.
Mr. Sparkman. Twice, I know.
Miss HoEY. Yes. .^^ ^ . , . ^ ,. ,, .
Mr. Sparkman. And probably you will make it a third time this
year.
Miss HoEY. We will.
Mr. Sparkman. I hope you keep it up. , n •
Miss HoEY. You see, we see no other way of adequately hnancmg
those programs. I think it is interesting, however, that out of the
2 000,000 aged that are now receiving assistance, the average grant, the
national average is $20 a month ; that 1,000,000 get $20 or over, and
that one and a half million get $15 a month or over, which is fairly
good.
Mr. Sparkman. That includes both State, local, and Federal, that
$15 or $20?
Miss HoEY. Yes. It is 279,000, to be exact, who get $10 a month
or less. So that I think that is fairly good as to distribution in terms
of amount, nationally. That small group that gets less than $10 is in
the southern States.
Mr. Sparkman. Of course, that does not reflect the true condition,
either, that I just mentioned, that probably more than half — in fact, a
couple of years ago, when I was making a little study of that in my
own district, I came to the conclusion that only about one-third of
the eligibles were receiving anything at all.
Miss HoEY. That is perfectly true in those States even where they
have low grants; there are long waiting lists. In one State we have
doubled the number on the waiting list of those that are actually get-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3525
ting assistance. There are about 200,000 aged people in the United
States who are on the waiting list with about 2,000,000 getting help.
Mr. Sparkman. Last year we passed an amendment to the Social
Security Act raising the amount of the Federal participation to $20
a month, rather a futile gesture for a great part of the country, do you
not think so?
Miss HoEY. Yes ; although I think it has made a noticeable differ-
ence in some States where they have more adequate resources a^d can
take advantage. But those are already the better-to-do States.
UNSKILLED MIGRANTS SEEK DEFENSE JOBS
Mr. Sparkman. You speak of the migration of individuals in con-
nection with the national-defense program. Have you any informa-
tion that might indicate whether this migi^ation is largely of employ-
able persons or are there a great many persons who are going into those
sections in the hope that they might find employment ?
Miss HoEY. I think there are a great many who are going there
just in the hope of getting employment. Some may be more competent
to do the jobs than others; others are not competent, not only in terms
of skills, but actually not able to do it; they are too old, or for some
other reason are handicapped. We have no figures that would show
that migi-ation, because it is a very rapid thing.
In the Norfolk area, 2 months ago, they had 35,000 that had sud-
denly come in. It is very hard to keep track of that.
Our general impression is that, of those people who are going, quit©
a great many are unskilled, and, therefore, if the defense industries call
for skilled workers they will not get jobs, although they may get
supplementary jobs in restaurants, rooming houses, or other places
where these people have to live, but not actually in the defense industry
itself.
Mr. Sparkman. Is it contemplated that most of these people are
going to settle down in these areas, or do you think they are there just
for a short time ?
Miss HoEY. We have little way of knowing. If there is an oppor-
tunity of earning a living, they are going to stay ; if there is not, they
will go on somewhere else.
Mr. Sparkman. If they do, when this boom era is over there is going
to be quite a headache in those particular communities, is there not ?
Miss HoEY. A very serious problem.
Mr. Sparkman. You recommend that a great number of persons
might be trained for partial work.
Miss HoEY. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You mentioned one occupation — mattress making.
Miss HoEY. Oh, that was a mere incident illustrating the case of
handicapped persons.
Mr. Sparkman. I just wonder if you can give us an idea of some
other occupations that they might be trained for?
Miss HoEY. It is not a question, I think, of the type of job you can
train a person for. I personally have had a good deal of experience
in relation to prison industries, and we found that we could not pos-
3526
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
sibly compete in training people on a particular machine because we
could not keep up with the modern machinery in industries. But
what you can do is to train them. They are hand-minded and you can
teach them to do something with their hands. Find out what their
interests are, what their aptitudes are by certain group tests of those
people, and then see what kind of things you can tram them for. It
is not a specific job. . . . , ,
I think it is an expensive thing to do, but I thnik it is much less
expensive than to support these people on relief for the rest of their
lives, that you really do something in terms of considering them as a
rehabilitation problem rather than simply as a problem of support.
FOURTH CATEGORY OF SOCIAL SECURITY
Mr. Sparkman. With reference to the fourth category that you
recommend, as I understand, that would cover the whole field of
general relief.
Miss HoEY. Residents and nonresidents ?
Mr. Sparkman. Yes. In other words, the migrant relief would be
just one feature of that?
Miss HoEY. Yes. .
Mr. Sparkman. Do you think that such a program, put into effect,
would cause the States to change their laws so as to fit in? I have in
mind particularly the settlement laws that you mentioned.
Miss HoEY. I think you would have to make the granting of Federal
funds conditional upon the States either having no residence law at all
or having a maximum of, say, a year or 6 months.
Mr. Sparkman. I wonder which you would recommend.
Miss HoEY. I would recommend, first, the elimination of any settle-
ment law, if I had my choice. But I do not know whether that is pos-
sible. But I would certainly; make it a maximum of 1 year for gaining
residence and for losing residence ; that is, that the person would not
lose his residence until he had been gone from the State a year.
Mr. Sparkman. Miss Hoey, I was interested in one of the tables in
one of your supplements having to do with the settlement laws.
Miss HoEY. Yes.
POOR states' residence requirements low
Mr. Sparkman. I noticed that there were only two States that re-
quired a 6 months' residence ; that is to say, not more than a 6 months'
residence. Those States were Alabama and Mississippi. I noticed
that a great many of the wealthier States had a stricter residence law.
I just wonder what the explanation of that is, why those States which
are best able to handle the problem require a long residence, whereas
those States having the greatest struggle provide for a shorter resi-
dence or settlement period ?
Miss HoEY. I think those States have been fearful of the migrants
who have been coming in. They came, as in California, because of
the weather that we have heard about.
Mr. Sparkman. Just heard about?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3527
Miss HoEY. Well, it has been broadcast, as it were. They come in
for that reason and because they know that they would save money in
the cost of living, perhaps, because they would not need fuel and all
the other things. And those States, in defense, have put up their
residence laws.
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, they have put up the barrier in
self-defense.
Miss HoEY. Yes. They have unfortunately, in some States, ap-
pealed for workers to come in when they needed them for a short
period; in the farming industries, particularly in the harvesting of
the crops. Then at the end of the period they felt they had no obli-
gation concerning the care of those people.
Mr. Sparkman. You stated that in 40 States, I believe it was, of the
48 States, provision is made for the care of transients on a relief set-
up. I wonder to what extent that relief is given ?
Miss HoEY. I think that was overemphasis, and I regret having
made that statement, because it gives, perhaps, a false impression.
When we say that 40 States paid some attention — that is really what
I should have said — that meant that perhaps one area in a State did
that. It does not mean that all parts of the State give any help. It
means any assistance at all, even to providing gasoline to get to the
next town. Those were included within the 40.
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, what you really mean is that there
are 8 States in which there is no attention given to that.
Miss HoEY. There is not even the gesture, and in a lot of the other
40 States it is just a gesture, in order to get rid of the people,^ by
housing them in jails overnight,, or that kind of thing. But it is just
any kind of care at all, and in most of them it is certainly very inade-
quate care.
Mr. Sparkman. I know that the State welfare directors in several
different States have told us very frankly that, while they would like
to give that kind of relief, they could not reasonably be expected to
do so, when they could use that dollar on one of the other categories
and have it go twice as far.
Miss HoEY. That is true, or to take care of the residents for whom
they have a greater responsibility, as they felt. There is no reluc-
tance, I believe, on the part of such State administrators to give assist-
ance to these people if they had the resources with which to do it.
They would give adequate care and would be glad to give it, if they
had the resources.
GENERAL RELIEF FOR SHORT PERIODS
Mr. Sparkman. Is it your belief, as the result of your own ex-
perience, that it is impossible to carry out a State-assistance program
for migrants without strengthening it from the general relief program ?
Miss HoEY. I think it is impossible and undesirable to do so.
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, it must go along as part of the
general relief program ?
Miss HoEY. That is my personal opinion. I think it would be un-
fortunate to make a provision for residents as against nonresidents,
rjroc INTERSTATE MIGRATION
because greater antagonism would come from the nonresidents, and it
would create a greater cost. 4^ ^ .i 4^ ^ ^u f
Mr Spaekman. I notice in your statement you reter to the tact that
the W P A , P W. A.. N. Y. A., and C. C. C. programs have been
unable to 'absorb all of the able-bodied unemployed persons in need of
employment. As a matter of fact, they never will and cannot be
expected to, can they ?
Miss HoEY. I do not think so. Furthermore, for people, some of
them, who are unemployed for short periods, the work program is
unsuitable. You cannot develop good projects for people who are
goino- to be on today and off tomorrow. You have to consider them aa
being employed for a fairly long period, and, if you are going actually
to attempt that, you cannot have, generally, a lot of changes. So I
believe a general relief program for people unemployed for short
periods is much more suitable than a work program.
Mr. Sparkman. Has the Social Security Board made any estimates
or studies as to what the cost of a general relief program would be, on
such a basis as you recommend ?
Miss HoEY. The Research Bureau has made some studies on that.
It is not a very adequate basis, because we do not know how quickly
the States would take advantage of any such Federal program. As
you know, this year 44 legislatures are in session. If something went
through the Congress before those went home, you might get some-
thing enacted but, if not, as to those States that only have their legisla-
tures meet every 2 years, there would be quite a long period before
they would be able to enact legislation to take advantage of it. So
that I think, based upon the need of all the States taking advantage
at one time, our Research Bureau estimated something like $250,000,000
the first year. I could supply you with some additional data from our
Research Bureau in relation to that.
Mr. Sparkman. I believe that would be very helpful, if we could
have that.
Miss HoEY. I will be glad to furnish it.
(The following memorandum was received later from Miss Hoey
and accepted for the record:)
Decembek 13, 1940.
Miss Jane Hobtt,
Director, Bureau of PuUic Assistance.
Anne E. Geddes,
Chief, Division of PuUic Assistance Research,
Bureau of Research and Statistics.
Tolan committee's question on cost of extending general relief program
This is in reply to your memorandum of December '7.
We suggest that no change be made in the estimate of $250,000,000 which you
gave in your testimony before the Tolan committee as the cost to the Federal
Government of a general-relief program in the first year of operation, assuming
50 percent matching and provision for both resident and nonresident cases.
It is extremely difficult to estimate the cost of a general relief program in the
absence of detailed specifications concerning conditions of eligibility and types
and amounts of aid to be provided. For example, vpould medical care be pro-
vided under the general-relief program as under the Federal Emergency Relief
Administration program? Would hospitalization be provided? Payments for this
type of aid were not matched by the Federal Government under the Federal
Emergency Relief Administration. Would these services be available only to
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3529
persons receiving subsistence care or would they be available also to the medi-
cally needy? It is also diflBcult to make cost estimates without assumptions as
to the probable size of the Work Projects Administration and surplus commodity
and stamp plan programs and as to general economic conditions. Needs for
general relief are greatly affected by the phase of the business cycle. If specili-
cations were set up for a general relief title, estimates might vary substantially
from the figure which you quoted, but until such specitications are set forth it
does not seem feasible to make more precise estimates.
In the 12-month period, November 1939 to October 1940, expenditures for gen-
eral relief, exclusive of medical care and hospitalization and also of administra-
tion, amounted to $400,000,000. At this level of expenditure the Federal share
would be approximately $205,000,000. The availability of Federal funds for
general relief would of course greatly stimulate growth in the volume of pay-
ments, but there would be some lag between enactment of a general relief title
and enactment of State legislation and the approval of State plans to permit
States to take advantage of Federal funds. The extent of the lag would depend
upon the specifications of the Federal act, particularly with respect to eligibility.
If the provisions of the Federal title were broad, little amendment to State legis-
lation would be required. The States would hasten to qualify because of the
incentive to benefit from Federal funds.
Annual expenditures for administration of general relief are now approxi-
mately $60,0<JO,000. At this level of expenditure, the annual Federal cost for
administration would be $30,000,000. With Federal participation in the general-
relief program, there would be sharp increase in the volume of administrative
expense ; but lag between enactment of Federal legislation and approval of State
plans would to some extent retard the growth in such expenses in the first year
of operation by agencies with approved plans.
It is doubtful whether the $250,000,000 estimate is large enough if it is intended
to cover medical care and hospitalization. In 1940 it is estimated that expendi-
tures of general relief agencies for medical care and hospitalization, exclusive of
amounts intended for these services and included in cash grants, will be roughly
$30,000,000. If there were Federal participation in payments for medical care
and hospitalization, expenditures for these services would rise enormously, even
in the first year of operation. At present these services are provided in whole
or in part in many States under programs other than the general-relief program.
The availability of Federal funds for medical care and hospitalization would
result in some shifting of these services to the general relief agency.
We have no basis for estimating the cost of care for the migratory and non-
resident groups. Again the estimates would depend upon the types of care to
be given and particularly upon whether the general-relief program would embrace
institutional and camp facilities for migrants. The costs would also depend upon
whether the Work Projects Administration and Farm Security Administration
were to discontinue care for these groups.
Mr. Falk is now preparing a memorandum giving crude estimates of Federal
matching of general relief which may supply you with the type of data in which
you are interested. A copy of this memorandum will be sent to you as soon as
it is completed.
Anne E. Geddes.
TESTIMONY OF JANE M. HOEY AND JACK B. TATE— Resumed
Mr. Sparkman. Let me ask you this : How many States have taken
up the old-age assistance program? Any of them?
Miss HoET. For the last 3 years, they have. That includes Hawaii,
Alaska, and the District of Columbia.
Mr. Sparkman. For what ?
Miss HoEY. The last 3 years. Every one has been in the 51 units
for the last 3 years.
Mr. Sparkmaist. Fifty-one units; they include the Territories and
District of Columbia?
ocQQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Miss HoET. The Territories and the District of Columbia ; yes.
Mr Sparkman. What about State old age?
Miss HoET. Only 43 States; some of those larger States, like Ilhnois,
have never taken advantage of the Federal act.
Mr. Sparkman. Forty -three?
Miss HoEY. Forty-three of those jurisdictions.
Mr. Sparkman. That is, there are 51 jurisdictions, and 43 of them
have taken advantage?
Miss HoEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. Is that the third category, or does that go into the
same one as aid to dependent children ?
Miss HoEY. No; there are three categories— blind, aged, and
dependent children.
farm SECURITY PROGRAM HELPFUL
Mr. Sparkman. You have not mentioned and I do not know
whether I should ask you, or not, but in any kind of relief program
such as you recommend would you recommend the extension or
expansion of the farm security program, the surplus crop marketing
program— I have reference particularly to the food stamp plan—
and the rural rehabilitation program of the Farm Security
Administration ?
Miss HoEY. The food stamp, if I may take that first, has been
very helpful, particularly in the States where the grants were low,
in supplementing public-assistance grants as well as in supplying
help. It has been used by the State agencies to supplement the low
grants in many States, or to take care of the group on the waiting
list as well as the general relief group.
There needs to be, it seems to me, on the local level and on the
State-Federal level, closer cooperation of the farm security and
public-assistance programs, because they, in some instances, are giving
relief to farm families, and that needs to be coordinated in the same
county with the public welfare administration progi'ams. I think
there is no conflict there. In other words, they are taking care of
a gi^oup that the local relief administration did not have an oppor-
tunity to take care of. The loan program is not equipped to do
that and I think, in that instance, it has been very helpful, and some
of the loans may become a dead letter and assistance should be
granted. Therefore, that needs to be closely coordinated with
Federal relief.
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, you would recommend, as I
understand, that the Farm Security "^Administration function in a
supplemental capacity?
Miss HoEY. I do not know who would supplement wliat.
Mr. Sparkman. Each agency would be supplemental to the other?
Miss HoEY. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Because that family that is breaking up the farm
and moving into town is going to become your client ?
Miss HoEY. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3531
Mr. Sparkman. And if the Farm Administration cannot keep them
out on the farm, making a living as an independent unit, it means
they will move to town ?
CXDORDINATE FARM AND RELIEF PROGRAMS
Miss HoEY. Yes. On the other hand, the Public Welfare Admin-
istration is taking care of a great many farm families also, so that
those two programs need to be very closely coordinated. That is on
a line that has a different basis than assistance. But I believe the one
agency ought to give assistance, and not two.
Mr. Sparkman. I was just noticing an article in the paper last night
to the effect that the food-stamp plan has spread to 203 communities,
I believe it is.
Miss HoEY. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. It would be your thought that, functioning as it
does, certainly there would be a great many more communities through
the years that could use it with profit ?
Miss HoEY. Yes. My field staff happens to be in at the moment and
we met yesterday with the field staff to create cooperation, because there
is in some measure a conflict between our bodies. In the food-stamp
plan, you are trying to get a consumption of surplus products ; in our
program, we are trying to see that these people get money that they
can use in any way they please. In other words, if they get a $12 food
budget, if this week they want to spend $10 for food and $2 for shoes,
we think they should be able to do that ; in other words, we ought to
try to have families getting assistance living as normally as any other
family in the community. Now, the food-stamp people are saying,
"You must spend so much for food in order to get these stamps." We
have said, "You must have no restrictive payments." Mr. Tate will
speak on that, he being the general counsel and interpreting the Fed-
eral law for us. The food-stamp people are saying "You must spend
this amount for food, or you cannot get these blue stamps." So there
seems to be a conflict there and we have discussed that to see if we
cannot work out what is best for both, without having the one program
contravene the other program.
Mr. Sparkman. Of course the cotton stamp plan, which has been
experimented with, would take care of some of them.
Miss HoEY. Yes. This only takes care of the food-stamp plan and
cash assistance which is in accordance with the Federal Act, and
must be.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you think it might be extended to cover neces-
sary clothing?
Miss HoEY. Yes. Although, again, the objective there is simply to
get rid of surplus foods. My understanding is that is their objective,
rather than to provide a balanced diet, or to provide adequate clothing
for people. It should be always supplemental; there should be a
planning for the family in terms of their needs. If you can utilize
these other programs in doing that, so much the better; but do not
try to change your program in order to meet the needs of that program.
3532 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might ask Mr. Tate one
question ?
The Chairman. Certainly.
Mr. Sparkman. I just wondered, Mr. Tate — I am through ques-
tioning Miss Hoey — if there is any point we have mentioned that
you differ with, or have a little different interpretation to give ?
Mr. Tate. Not substanially. I think what Miss Hoey says about a
general category relief program that treats the migrant as part of
the whole program is entirely right and proper. I think the migrant
problem is an aspect of the relief problem and I think it is entirely
proper there should be a fourth category in this general relief group
and it becomes all the more necessary then to move your age and your
residence requirements down from the present requirements of the
Social Security Act, which permits an exclusion where there is a
residence below any 5 years out of the past 9, to at least 1 year.
AID MIGRANT ACCORDING TO NEED
I agree with MisS Hoey it is desirable to get away from that
altogether and have the assistance payments made where the man is,
in accordance with his need there.
I do not entirely agree with Miss Hoey on the question of degree
or the feasibility of the 100-percent Federal grant for the group under
1 year. I think it would have to be very carefully safeguarded in
order to prevent the enticement of people from places where assist-
ance payments are low to places where they are high. Obviously it
would create a greater problem than exists even now. I think you
could do that by some method of safeguarding and, of course, you
would always have the administrative problem of preventing the
loading of the less-than-l-year-residence group, in order to get 100-
percent Federal funds, instead of using 50 percent of State funds.
Mr. Sparkman. Miss Hoey, do you want the last word on that ?
Miss HoET. We often disagree, but it is a very friendly debate.
You see, I have to administer; he only has to advise me on the law.
So that while I think it might be done, I think Mr. Tate would agree
a general relief program is more desirable which includes residents
and nonresidents.
Mr. Tate. Oh, yes.
Miss Hoey. If we could not get that, what else could we get?
The Chairman. Mr. Tate, I suppose you know that this is the
concluding hearing of this committee. We have had seven field
hearings in various States, and the purpose of these hearings here
is to fill up any gaps that might appear in the record when we come
to write our report. So that we have prepared some questions here
that I desire to present to you for that very purpose — for the record
purpose, don't you see?
Mr. Tate. Yes.
DEFINES DOMICILE, RESUiENCE, SETTLEMENT
The Chairman. And I will read them to you now and then you
will kindly give your answers.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3533
In our hearings over the country, the committee has become
cognizant of some peculiar situations which have arisen as the result
of legal interpretations of various constitutional and statutory doc-
trines dealing with citizenship, domicile, residence, and settlement.
Your statement, which will be inserted in the record in full, treats
with all of these questions. I wish you would at this time discuss the
legal difference between "domicile," "residence," and "settlement."
Mr. Tate. Mr. Tolan, I think we ought to recognize right in the
beginning that these terms — domicile, residence, settlement — are not
absolute terms; they may have different meanings in different con-
texts. You may have one residence for purposes of taxation; you
may have a different residence for purposes of divorce, or a different
residence for purposes of relief, say. Roughly, I think you can say
this, that domicile is a place where you expect to stay permanently.
Then, as to "settlement," I think it should be pointed out that it is
entirely a creature of statute and it depends on the statute as to the
meaning. Usually, it means approximately the same thing as
"residence"; that is, the place where you are at present and have no
intention of departing from, plus the condition that no public relief
may be received during that period that is set forth in the settlement
law.
I think there has been a great deal of discussion in the committee,
from what I have read in the papers, of the various settlement laws
in the different States. If any such remedy of the problem as Miss
Hoey and I have suggested were adopted, that problem of the various
State settlement laws would become irrelevant. In other words, if
you are making grants to States for general relief covering these
groups, you undoubtedly would condition that grant on the abandon-
ment of a great many of these restrictive provisions in the diversity
of settlement laws.
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question on that?
The Chairman. Certainly.
Mr. Parsons. Do you advocate, as Miss Hoey does, the abolition of
all settlement laws ?
Mr. Tate. For the purpose of granting assistance, yes.
Miss Hoey. We mean there restrictiveness only in relation to that.
You may need them for other purposes, but I was speaking only in
relation to grants of assistance.
Mr. Parsons. But you both advocate the abolition of the settlement
laws in the treatment of the relief probliem ?
Mr. Tate. As a condition to receiving relief.
Mr. Parsons. And why do you so advocate ?
Mr. Tate. Of course the settlement laws go back a long way. Miss
Hoey was asked a while ago why Certain States had very restrictive
settlement provisions, and I think she pointed out quite properly that
one of the reasons is that those States that have the more restrictive
provisions are apt to be those States into which people migrate and in
which the problem is more acute. It may also be pointed out that
another reason is, in a great many States that have those restrictive
provisions, it is very largely traditional; it is copied from the old
English poor laws that go back several hundred years, and it is a case
of one county creating a relief problem to another county.
QC34 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
RELIEF A NATIONAL PROBLEM
It seems to me this relief problem has more and more become less
of a county problem, or even a State problem, and has become a na-
tional problem and it seems to me, as a national problem, it requires
to a large degree the abandonment of those restrictive provisions of
settlement laws. n , , ^
Mr. Sparkman. As I understand the recommendation ot both ot
you it is simply this, that the Federal Government's participation
would not be based upon any settlement laws ?
Miss HoEY. That is right.
Mr. Sparkman. Of course, if a State wanted a settlement law for
the administration of additional relief of its own, that would be all
right; but you would set up a program providing that the Federal
Government would not participate on any such basis?
Miss HoEY. That is right
The Chairman. And that answer is based, I take it, Mr. Tate, on the
proposition that we are all citizens of the 48 States and, being an
American citizen traveling between those States, if you are in one
and need relief, there ought to be no State barriers?
Mr. Tate. Yes.
The Chairman. That is the reason back of it ?
Mr. Tate. Yes.
The Chairman. In your statement, you recite that five States in
1939 tightened State requirements for settlement; that is, those States
are really tightening up on their obligations. Have you noticed a
trend to tighten up on residence requirements for, say, getting a di-
vorce; or is the tendency in that instance to lighten the residence
requirements to induce business into the State? Take Nevada, for
instance.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you mean to include divorce and relief laws in
the same category ?
The Chairman. It is just the difference in causes.
Mr. Tate. I suppose it is a very natural and human tendency,
when you are getting something, to put less restrictions on it than
when "you have to hand out something. Obviously, looking back
over a period of years, the divorce laws have become much less re-
strictive. Some States have, I believe, announced they get business
through their divorce laws.
The Chairman. That is activated by the dollar, is it not ?
Mr. Tate. Certainly.
STATE INVOKES MIGRANT DIFFERENTIAL
Mr. OsMERS. Would you say along those lines, Mr. Tate, that the
Florida situation is rather a good example of a State seeking desirable
migrants and excluding undesirable migrants ? I refer to their policy
of advertising with the taxpayers' money to encourage people to come
to Florida, and stopping people at the border if they suspect they
may become public charges.
Mr. OsMERS. Yes. Obviously the State wants to receive the benefits
from the more well-to-do migrants and, obviously, does not want to
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3535
undertake the obligation of the less well-to-do migrants, where they
would have to assist in their support.
Mr. OsMERS. From a purely legal standpoint, what is your opinion
of the Florida situation as respects the stopping of people at the
border ?
Mr. Tate. Mr. Congressman, that raises a very difficult question
and that I do not know can be answered with any degree of authority
at all. I depends on a balancing, as I read the cases, between two
constructions of these constitutional privileges — the commerce clause
privileges, the immunity bars, and so forth and so on — of giving them
a wide interpretation, as against the traditional concept, that a State
may prevent, any political unit may prevent, a drain on itself, in an
emergent situation. And where that balancing takes place in a par-
ticular case is very hard to say; it is particularly hard to say here,
because the people we are talking about are not people, however
litigious they may be (and nobody knows much about that), who can
fight their way through the courts, and it is interesting to me that
there is no appellate decision of recent years on this question.
Mr. OsMERS. Would you refer to the decision, speaking, of course,
as a layman, of the New York State Court of Appeals in the so-called
Ohio Deportation case, as an appellate decision affecting that question ?
Mr. Tate. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. That did not affect the constitutional side of the case,
and that was the pith of it ?
Mr. Tate. The constitutional side of the case may be presented, and
as a matter of fact today I understand that that case is being pre-
sented to the District Court in New York. That is the Chirillo case ?
Mr. Osmers. That is the Chirillo case. Is that being presented on
constitutional grounds ?
Mr. Tate. On the constitutional grounds.
Mr. Osmers. I am glad to know that, because a lot of us interested
on the constitutional side of it were very much disappointed that the
Court of Appeals made no decision.
Mr. Tate. No. They went off on a construction of the statute.
FLORmA-CALirORNrA RIVALJtY
Mr. Parsons. Have you noticed, Mr. Tate, whether there is any
rivalry or competition in the importation of desirable migrants
between California and Florida?
Mr. Tate. I think all the States like to get desirable migrants ; they
like to increase the average income in the State. I think it is not a
situation limited to Florida and California, although undoubtedly
rivalry exists there and is more pointed there than in other States.
Mr. Parsons. Well, California does do a great deal of advertising,
does it not, for desirable migrants ?
Mr. Tate. Certainly.
Mr. Osmers. New Jersey is the only State in the Union that wel-
comes both the well-to-do and the indigent.
The Chairman. I want to say, Mr. Tate, being from California,
I have got this all through the country. I was just thinking about
3536
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
these destitute migrants going into various States. My home Statb
of California would not dare think of raising a barrier against the
importation of oranges from Florida, would she, or vice versa, because
they would retaliate, would they not ; but destitute citizens, of course,
are a different i^roposition. Do you know, Mr. Tate — probably you
do — that many of our States in the Union make it a misdemeanor
to transport destitute citizens across State lines, and South Dakota
makes it a felony, and a penitentiary offense ?
Mr. Tate. Yes. I think I point out in my statement the South
Dakota and North Dakota case in which the judge that rendered the
opinion was very firm.
Mr. Curtis. At that point, may I ask this question : Is it not true,
though, if you inquire into the historical background of those
statutes — and they are all old — that was for the protection of the
destitute person? In other words, one State cannot dispose of the
relief problem by trickery or the purchasing of railway tickets and
bodily transporting people and loading them off onto another State.
I do not think it is a barrier against the destitute person as much
as it is for the protection of him, when those laws were enacted.
Mr. Tate. That undoubtedly, Mr. Congressman, was one of the
motives. However, I think it is also true that the State to which
the person moved did not want to assume the obligation that it did
not feel was its obligation. The second jurisdiction felt he was
"not one of our people; why should we support him?"
Mr. Curtis. I think that is true.
AGENCIES SIGN TRANSPORTATION AGREEMENTS "
Miss HoEY. For many years, Mr. Congressman, the social agencies
have signed a transportation agreement, as we called it, that we would
not transport one person to another place until that other community
agreed to accept the person and provide for him when he got there.
So that we have tried to stop just that kind of passing on an indi-
vidual. Yet it is done, as you know; I mean a person being given
just enough gasoline to get on to the next community, whether that
was across State lines, or not.
The Chairman. Another residence provision which has interested
me is the one used by the various States when they levy inheritance
taxes. I remember that last year we had three States (Texas,
Florida, and Massachusetts) fighting in the Supreme Court of the
United States over whether or not Colonel Green was a resident of
their State because they wanted something out of Colonel Green's
estate. Have you ever heard of three States claiming a migrant at
the same time, for the purpose of paying him relief? It would
almost make one think that there is one law for the rich and another
law for the poor.
Mr. Tate. No; I have never heard of that. I think the States
were very anxious to get the tax on the Hetty Green estate.
The Chairman. But they do not feel that way about migrants,
Mr. Tate. And they feel they have nothing to gain fi'om migrants.
The Chairman. Now, the acquisition of settlement in most States
is dependent on a period of self-supporting residence. In your state-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3537
ment, you mention the fact that W. P. A. may be considered relief
and, as such, a bar to the acquisition, if a State statute so provides.
Congress coukl provide that W. P. A. woukl only be made avaialable
to States that considered W. P. A. self-sufficient employment for the
purpose of acquiring settlement. Would you recommend that kind
of a provision ?
Mr. Tate. Yes; I would. I think Congress, of course, could put a
condition on those grants, and would so recommend, and some of the
States do recognize them as not creating a settlement difficulty; some
do not.
SUFFRAGE NOT FOR INDIGENT
Mr. OsMERS. Mr. Tate, in my State of New Jersey, we have an ancient
provision on the books which deprives paupers, in the old sense of
the word, of a vote in any election. Do you happen to know how many
States of the Union have a sunilar regulation ?
Mr. Tate. No ; I do not. Of course a good many of the States have
a poll-tax provision that may work the same result.
Mr. OsMERS. Of course the poll-tax provision would make the pay-
ment of a poll tax a requirement for voting, but that would not have
anything to do with being a pauper, because someone could hand him
the amount of the poll tax and he, in turn, would pay it. That would
not change his situation in the community.
Mr. Tate. It might or might not. I mean if he did not have it and
no person handed him the money, obviously he could not vote. If he
had the money, he could.
Mr. Osmers. We have repealed in New Jersey our poll tax and left
the other requirement. Of course, it is not enforced. The Tax Com-
missioner has investigated the subject in New Jersey and recommended
that it should be enforced, and it created a great storm, as you can
imagine. But what would your feeling be toward that type of
statutory limitation on voting.
Mr. Tate. I would be unsympathetic with a provision that you
could not vote if you were a pauper.
Mr. OsMEus. You would be unsympathetic to such a provision ?
Mr. Tate. Yes.
Mr. Osjiers. That is my feeling, too. I think it should be taken
off the books.
The Chairman. These settlement laws have highlighted for us
the attitude of the various States toward destitute citizens of sister
States. I know that you are familiar with the provision in the Articles
of Confederation of 1777, which stated :
The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among
the people of the different States in this Union, the free inhabitants of each of
these States — paupers, vagabonds, and fugitives from justice — shall be entitled to
all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several States ; and the people
of each State shall have free ingress and egress to and from any other State.
That provision, fortunately, was rewritten before it was inserted
into our present Constitution. But the States themselves have erected
the wall barring interstate movement of destitute folks in many in-
stances through the power of the States to exclude or expel. I wish
3538
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
you would discuss those powers of the States more fully and highlight
the Constitutional aspect involved. , ■, ^
Mr. Tate. Well, I think it is interesting to refer to the legal con-
federation. I believe that it was in the Wheeler case^ the case of
United States v. Wheeler, that Chief Justice White by dictum indi-
cated that article IV, section 2, the privileges and immunities clause,
was pretty much a carry-over provision, and that you could look to
that provision for the meaning of the privileges and immunities
clause. However, I do not believe we should admit that as a flat
decision. This section should be considered in connection with other
decision on it, because there has been a paucity of decisions in this
type of cases. Orders of expulsion, I think, have been sustained.
The privileges and immunities clause, I think, has been somewhat
broadened in recent years. The Hagu^ case indicated a broadening
so far as privileges and immunities are concerned, followed by retrac-
tions at the last term to some degree. I think you will find the
decision in those cases in balance with this historical basis of settle-
ment that went back to our Constitution, and also appearing in the
laws of England, and is to be weighed against the emergency need
under which the State is acting.
MIGRANTS LIVE IN LEGAL LIMBO
The Chairman. Mr. Tate, with the settlement laws as they are, is
it possible for a man to exist in legal limbo — that is, to lose his settle-
ment in one State before he has acquired it in another. That makes
his status as a citizen of a State meaningless, and he has to fall back
on his dual citizenship as a citizen of the United States. Is that
correct ?
Mr. Tate. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Many witnesses before this committee have reconi-
mended that a new category be included under the Social Security
Act to provide for some form of relief, either by grants-in-aid to the
States or by a direct relief program, to take care not only of those
people who have no State responsible for them, but for all relief
cases. I believe you have covered that.
Mr. Tate. Yes, sir ; I think that is highly desirable.
The Chairman. Assuming that Congress decides to do something
about it, what would you suggest as a workable solution of this
problem ?
Mr. Tate. As I indicated in my previous remarks, I think you
should have a general relief category, and that you should have as
a condition to the grants to States the abolition in large part of resi-
dence restrictions. Then, as Congressman Sparkman indicated a
while ago, in order to help States that are not in a financial condition
to carry it out, there should be some variable grants.
The Chairman. In other words, it does not help the morale of this
country when you have old people in Alabama and Mississippi
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3539
receiving $10 or $9 per month, while in another State they are
receiving $30 per month. The old people in States where they are
getting a lesser amount are just as precious as those living in States
where they are getting a larger amount?
Mr. Tate. Yes, sir ; that is true.
The Chairman. And I understand you have been working toward
that end.
Mr. Tate. Yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. Some States can afford a larger amount and some other
States cannot. What is the basis?
STATU INCOME CORRELATED TO PAYMENTS
Mr. Tate. It is very interesting to me in comparing the figures to
note the average per capita income of the State as compared with the
average amount of the grants. You will find a close correlation there.
In some States where they have old-age assistance, they will give what
they can. For instance, you will find that States like New York,
where they have a relatively high per capita income, the grants are
high, while in States like Mississippi, with a relatively low per capita
income, the grants are low. I think you would have to have some
relation to the average per capita income in working out the variable
grants.
Mr. Curtis. Is that true of all the States ?
Mr. Tate, I do not say it is true of all the States, but I think it is
generally true of the States.
Miss HoET. The District of Columbia and the two Territories
would be the es;ceptions. It would not be true of the District of
Columbia, Hawaii, and Alaska.
Mr. Curtis. I think one witness this morning disagreed very
emphatically on that particular point.
Miss HoEY. Did he recommend a substitute for it?
Mr. Curtis. No ; he made no attempt to do that.
Miss HoEY. I think this is what he referred to : If you compare the
per capita income of the State to the Federal per capita income, we
may have a basis for granting Government funds to the States, but
there is nothing that has been worked out as a basis of distribution
of funds from the State to the local communities in the States. You
cannot apply the per capita income rule to a county or local sub-
division. We have recommended that the need in the county deter-
mine the distribution by the State level down to the county.
Mr. Curtis. Do you believe it should be based on ability to pay?
I have a map here — is that from you ?
Mr. Tate. No, sir.
Mr. Curtis. According to this map, the State of Florida grants in
relief payments $6.83. (See p. 3540.) I do not know what that
is. In South Dakota the payments are $13.81. Now, is Florida's
ability to pay only half that of South Dakota ?
Mr. Tate. I was not speaking of relief payments. I do not know
what that is. I was speaking, by and large, of old-age assistance.
Mr. Curtis. For old-age assistance, in this particular instance, the
amount is $11.81 for Florida, and $17.28 for South Dakota.
260370— 41— pt. 9 6
3540
[Nl'ERSTATE MIGRATION
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3541
Mr. Tate. I do not know, offhand, what the average per capita
income of those States is. It may be that it deviates from that factor.
There are a number of instances in which it does deviate. But gen-
erally it follows pretty well down that line of correlation.
Miss HoET. We are suggesting this simply as an approach to the
best way to effect the distribution of Federal funds to the States. We
are not recommending it as something absolute, but it is a method by
which some other things are being done. There are many things to be
considered as, for instance, the need of the State.
Mr. Curtis. According to this map, it would indicate that California
has two and a half times the ability to spend for relief that Texas
has. I seriously doubt that, and I do not think the payments being
made now indicate their relative ability to pay.
RELATIVE STATE TAX LEVIES
Miss HoEY. If we are talking about the revenue-raising capacity of
the State of Texas, of course, Texas has a great deal of natural wealth
which is either not taxed or taxed in a very limited way.
Mr. Curtis. Who determines whether it is to be taxed, or not?
Miss HoEY. The legislature of the State. If you are comparing the
wealth of those States, it may well be that the natural resources are
being compared. In one instance you have a State taxing them very
high, while another State is taxing them very low. That is another
element you must take into consideration in determining whether they
have the ability to pay.
The Chairman. That depends on what the respective legislatures
will appropriate for this purpose.
Miss Hoey. Yes, sir. Texas is very liberal in its treatment of re-
cipients of old-age assistance, but if you go to the other programs,
you will find that they have no children's program or general relief
program. However, they have appropriated at each session large
amounts for the care of the aged.
Mr. Parsons. The Legislature of the State of Illinois levies a sales
tax of 3 percent. One percent goes directly to relief, with some addi-
tional appropriations for that purpose. That goes to citizens of the
State of Illinois. That 1 percent amounts to between $3,000,000 and
$4,000,000 per month. Another cent goes to the old-age assistance
contrilDution. The other goes into State funds, as general revenues.
Then we have a gas tax for local purposes, which is subdivided back
among the local units of government. We have taken off the State
property tax, both real and personal. That tax has been taken off of
both real and personal property, but we have revenue derived from
the sales tax that amounts to three times, in the course of a year,
the annual property tax. We are getting that from those who have
money to spend.
Miss HoEY. Illinois is a good illustration that it does not depend
on the capacity of the State to finance its program. They have no
children's program in any way as a part of the Federal program. The
children's program there has been court-administered, and the State
has brought that matter into court.
QC42 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkman. As I see the program you suggest, these grants
would not be based upon a single factor, such as the amount the State
is now paying, or even upon the amount of taxes, or the method by
which the taxes are levied, but there would have to be worked up some
formula which would determine what a particular State would receive
in coimection with any particular program.
Miss HoEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tate. That is correct; but I do not want to leave the impression
here that we have a definite formula.
Mr. Sparkman. We recognize that.
Lest there be some misunderstanding, if I understood it correctly
a while ago, Mr. Curtis said some gentleman recoimnended that these
grants be variable grants. I do not understand that statement was
made by Mr. Hoehler. He recommended grants, but it was Mr.
Gallagher who referred to variable grants.
CONSTITUTIONALITY OF MIGRANT EXCLUSION
I would like to ask Mr. Tate one more question. _ He is a lawyer
who has given a great deal of thought to this subject, and here is
something that is running through my mind as a lawyer, and that
is the legal right of any State under the Constitution to keep a person
out of the State or, if the person is within the State, to put him out,
simply because of the fact that he may happen to be destitute.
Mr. Tate. I do not believe I can give a categorical answer to that
question. I would hate to assume that a State has that authority,
but, on the other hand, I would not feel at all sure that it does not
have that authority. Clearly, the privilege of moving about is a
privilege guaranteed by the Constitution, and any restriction of that
has to be on a justifiable basis.
Mr. Sparkman. Could it be justified by anything other than the
police power of the State?
Mr. Tate. No, sir; I think not.
Mr. Sparkman. It would have to come under the police power of
the State?
Mr. Tate. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you believe that a person's condition of poverty
would come within the police power of the State ?
Mr. Tate. Personally, I do not think so. I think it would have to
be a case of vital necessity to justify such restrictive action by the
State, and I do not believe that the mere fact of indigency presents
a question that would justify such restrictive action on the part of
the State.
Mr. Sparkman. What do you think about it, Miss Hoey ?
Miss HoEY. I feel very strongly on that. I have known of an
instance where a person born in a State and who came back to the
State where he was born, was prohibited from remaining in the State.
It does not mean that the State might not refuse him relief in the
State, but certainly it should not refuse domicile or residence to one
born in the State. Of course, I am not a lawyer, but that is my view.
Mr. Sparkman. The matter of giving relief and the matter of
allowing residence or domicile are entirely distinct things.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3543
NATIVE OF STATE "dEPORTEd" TO PHILIPPINES
Miss HoEY. Yes, sir. I know that a person born in one of the
States was sent back from the Philippines, and he was sent back by
that State to the Philippines, although he was born within the State.
May I clarify one thing : Mr. Tate and I were recommending a fourth
category, but that was not in lieu of a work program. It would be
supplementary to and not a substitute for the work progi-am.
Mr. Curtis. I understood you to say that Texas paid relatively
high old-age pensions.
Miss HoEY. No, sir ; they have been liberal in the number of persons
who would be eligible for old-age assistance. In other words, they
have been pretty generous as compared with some other States as to
the number who would be eligible for old-age assistance. I think
it is true that 60 percent of the aged people in Texas would be
eligible under their law.
Mr. Curtis. Texas ranks first in mineral wealth, and first in agri-
culture. A good percentage of the farm payments made by the
United States Government goes to Texas. There are a number of
military establishments down there, and they have a large seagoing
commerce. Yet, their payments are only half the amount of pay-
ments made by some other States. For instance, my own State of
Nebraska has only one industry, that of agriculture. There are no
minerals in the State, but, although without a good crop for 7 years,
Nebraska pays much larger amounts per month for this sort of
assistance than Texas does.
Miss HoEY. It is not only ability but the willingness of the State
to raise revenue that must be considered. It is not what they actually
pay.
Mr. Curtis. Do you recommend a variable formula for grants of
money to the States?
Mis HoEY. If you take the economies of some of the States, Ne-
braska, or some of the Southern States, your index would show that
many of them are relatively poor States, or much poorer than certain
other States. There is to be considered the question of the ability
or willingness to levy taxes, and, in some of them, I think any reason-
able person would agree that they could not raise enough revenue
to finance the necessary Government expenditures in an adequate relief
program.
NO formula for variable grants
Mr. Curtis. If you have a variable formula, I do not see how you
will get away from this willingness to receive Federal money.
Miss Hoey. That, I think, would be one condition you would have
to put in the Federal law. We have no formula worked out, and
it will have to be based on objective standards which will have to be
developed. The basis for grants has been the per capita income of
the State as compared with the per capita income of the country,
or the Federal per capita income. That does not give the basis of
distribution by the States to the counties and local subdivisions.
3544 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkman. The basis should be the willingness as well as the
ability to pay. There should be the willingness to see that it is
appropriated.
Miss HoET. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. There should be the exercise of willingness in line
with ability.
Miss HoEY. That is true.
The Chairman. If there is nothing further, we thank you
very much for your statements. You have made a very valuable
contribution to our discussion.
TESTIMONY OF GLENN E. JACKSON, DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC ASSIST-
ANCE, NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL WELFARE
Mr. Parsons Please state your name, address, and the organization
you represent.
Mr. Jackson. My name is Glenn E. Jackson, and I am the director
of public assistance of the New York State Department of Social
Welfare. My address is Albany, N. Y.
Mr. Parsons. You have been here during the hearings and heard
the discussion this morning in reference to the settlement laws. We
have had a number of witnesses from all over the country, especially
at the various places where we have conducted hearings, discuss that
question. I would like to have you take a few minutes to give us
your idea of what you have found in connection with j^our work in
the New York State Department of Social Welfare and from your
study of the settlement laws.
Mr. Jackson. I understood that the committee wished, perhaps,
that I make a summary of today's evidence, so far as I would agree
with it, and then point out the places that I might disagree with.
Mr. Parsons. Yes. You may discuss the angles presented this
morning and this afternoon, conimenting upon them and giving us
the result of your own studies.
RECOMMENDS COMMISSION TO STUDY MIGRATION
Mr, Jackson. First, may I express the honest and sincere apprecia-
tion by our State of the fact that this committee is doing this work,
because it will make a gi'eat contribution to the study which we
launched in our State late this summer. We were happy to learn of
the hearings by this committee, because they will save us a great deal
of original work, which could not have been accomplished nearly
so well by us acting independently. I want to add to that our keen
desire that somehow the work of this committee will be capitalized,
and that it will not be permitted to pass even by so valuable a thing
as a report. I think we would like to endorse the idea that there
be established in the Federal Government a commission dealing
with the problem that you are studying. We feel that there should
be a central reservoir of information and counsel to which organiza-
tions dealing with these problems may turn for advice and assistance,
Mr. Parsons. Would you suggest that probably it should be under
the Social Security program?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3545
Mr. Jackson. We do not suggest where it should be, but it should
be available in some suitable place. It would naturally be under some
department of the Government.
The Chairman. We have been thinking about that. We thought
that the recommendation of a department with radical power in this
organization might cause us to run into some difficulty. However,
if we should put it in the Department of Agriculture, the Department
of Labor, or the Social Security Board, we should have a representa-
tive from each of those departments to exchange information related
to this subject.
Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. That is the reason I would not too quickly
accept the suggestion as to the best place for it. It might be put in
one of those departments, or it might be separate from each one.
The administration of the program would fall naturally in one of the
three departments you mention.
Now, you have asked that I attempt a summary of today's evidence.
summary of preceding testimony
Any summary or review will appear to be unfair to much very
valuable material that has been presented by the witnesses. More-
over, the sunmiary generally reflects the bias of the reviewer.
Granted these hazards, I shall attempt the summary you have
requested me to make.
The statements made today seem to sum up to three basic points.
First, all of the statements agree that migration is a normal thing,
and is connected with all phases of economic life. It is something
that is engaged in generally by normal people. Further, this general
condition of normal migration appears now to be further stimulated
by the defense program. Therefore, this aggravated problem of
normal, plus the stimulated migration, should be regarded as one
requiring immediate and intelligent solution on a national plane.
In the second place, while most of this migration results favorably,
both to the migrant and to the economy of the community to which
the migrant comes, some of it results in failure. Some failure is
inevitable, even alongside a very large percentage of success. It is
with the failure that I propose to deal here. I am reminded to say
here that, of course, some of the bitter must go along with the better.
We are very much interested in the attempt to find a practical
solution of the problem. In New York State, we have one of those
peculiar settlement laws, but we do have provision that unsettled
people shall be charged to the State. Since 1937, under our relief
act, any unsettled person has been a 100-percent charge against the
State. Because of the working of our resettlement law, that has
become an increasing expense to the State. We would join in general
agreement with what seems to be the voice of these witnesses that
the solution lies with the Federal Government. We thoroughly
agree that no one State can cope with this problem.
QK^Q INTERSTATE MIGRATION
WOULD AMEND SOCIAL SEOURITT ACT
We would agree that the Social Security Act should be amended
so as to provide grants-in-aid to States for general relief for needy
residents and migrants, and that Federal funds for that purpose on
a 50 percent matching basis should be made available. As the con-
ditions under which these funds would be granted, the States should
be required to submit a plan for projects, as in the case of the cate-
gories now operative under the Social Security Act. The respon-
sibility for the administration and supervision of the program should
be in the same respective agencies as the other assistance programs.
That is to say, all Federal grants-in-aid should be conditioned, in
addition to other requirements, upon the States' agreement to extend
services to all persons living in the State, without regard to length
of residence.
Mr. Parsons. Would you recommend the abolition of all settlement
laws ?
Mr. Jackson. In the form in which the question comes, it is some-
what academic. It would be difficult to attempt to liquidate all the
settlement laws. As a condition to the grant, I would provide that
the State must set up a provision under which it would provide
general relief for all persons, and that would of itself, in effect,
liquidate those settlement laws.
If they desired to be retained on the statute, it would have to be
for other purposes.
ISSUES RAISED BY WITNESSES
May I make one or two comments on points which seemed to be
issues developed between the witnesses ?
In respect to variable grants, our State would be inclined not to
favor them. I am speaking probably out of our own experience in
New York State.
Before I came into my present position I was Assistant State
Director of the Emergency Relief Administration, which had full
power to make variable grants to counties and cities where we believed
that they needed special consideration.
Mr. Parsons. For transients?
Mr. Jackson. No, for general relief. That was availed of in about
six instances.
I think it is fair to say that did not work out well. That is to
say, we came to feel that there was no way to measure the locality's
ability to finance relief.
There is in the present State law a provision that the State depart-
ment may make a variable grant if it finds a locality in special need.
It has never availed itself of that provision, and I think I speak the
opinion of the Department when I say it is very reluctant to avail
itself of that provision.
Furthermore, in respect to that, we have made some careful studies
of the reasons for higher grants in one locality over another, and they
came to feel that it is a combination of complicated factors in which
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3547
it can be assumed that the dominant one is ability to pay. After
all, we believe that there are other strong factors, such as the attitude
toward relief, and the size of the case load, the vigorousness or lack
of vigorousness of the W. P. A. program, and many other factors.
We have considered about eight of them.
The Chaikman. Ability to pay is a fluctuating proposition, is it not ?
Mr. Jackson. Exactly so.
While at one time we did join with those who thought they could
apply that formula to a particular county, and asked the board to
avail themselves of that rule, we have not found that formula.
So we would feel that the present average grants referred to by the
Congi-essman in respect to some States do not appear to us to reflect
basic ability to pay, but do reflect some other important factors.
We note, for instance, the comparison between the relatively high
grants in some States for old-age assistance compared with general
relief, and it must be assumed that the degree of reimbursement, the
general appeal of the program, and so forth, are more effective than
ability to support the total relief structure.
WOULD CONTINUE GENERAL RELIEF PROGRAM
One other comment with respect to what some of the witnesses this
forenoon said as to whether, in our experience and opinion, the pros-
perity of national defense will liquidate in large part our relief rolls,
first of all, it seems rather obvious that it cannot liquidate all of the
categories. In respect to general relief, which, in our State, is the
largest complete program, we have just completed a census of our
rolls and find that about 60 percent of our present rolls are unemploy-
able and that that percentage is increasing. It is perfectly natural
that that is so.
Therefore, we would feel that it is highly important that there be
a continued general relief program, that if we are to solve this question
of migration it ought to be made a part of the general relief program,
with the State and Federal agencies sharing the burden.
That summarizes the notes I have made as to the points which are
the issues before the committee.
The Chairman. You have given us a very fine statement and we
appreciate your coming here, and I know the statement you have
given us will be valuable to us.
I will say that we will have our record open until the 12th of Decem-
ber, and if anything else occurs to you which you would like to have
made a part of your statement, we will be glad to put it into the record,
if you will send it to the committee.
Mr. Parsons. If you have a paper you want to file we will be glad
to have that.
Mv. Sp \RKMAN. I listened with much interest to your discussion of
the question of variable grants.
I think that you will admit that probably there would be a difference
as among the States from that prevailing as among the various units
in the same State.
3548 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
In other words, where you might be able to determine the ability
of some community within your State as compared to other com-
munities in the same State, that problem might not be so complex
when it comes to determining the ability of a State to pay.
Mr. Jackson. I pose as no expert, but I do not happen to see the
reason why it is easier to determine a State's ability to pay.
I am one of those who has to appear before the State legislature
when it comes time to provide funds for relief, and I know of no
formula on which you could fall back to determine just how much a
State could afford for the assistance of its citizens. Such a formula
might be made available.
Mr. Sparkman. You know there is the same question in connection
with Federal legislation. In 1936, in connection with the 1936
Hayden-Cartwright Act providing for Federal aid for road construc-
tion, a formula was laid down, with a provision that after a State
had done all that it could do and the Secretary of Agriculture had
so determined, and a part of its funds had been unmatched, those
funds could be allocated without matching.
Mr. Jackson. If it was ever necessary to determine variable grants
to certain States, if it is possible, it should be disconnected from the
basic scheme relating to the Social Security Act and some other means
found.
This has been found to be possible on a State-wide basis, that is
to say, where we have found a community where considered judg-
ment showed they were practically bankrupt, there were other means
of assisting needy people than that, but we have our reimbursement
features. We have other programs, like farm security. We have
a rural rehabilitation corporation within our State. We took steps
in the State to see what could be done in terms of resettlement, and
so forth, and those do become variable, without waiving the basic
provision.
Mr. Sparkman. You are aware that the Social Security Board has,
in several of its annual reports, recommended that the grants for
the three categories already in existence be changed to a fixed basis?
Mr. Jackson. That is right, but our State has never favored availing
themselves of that rule.
Mr. Sparkman. In our hearings it has been brought out that there
are a number of States in the United States that have an excessive
birth rate, running as high as 130 percent replacement, whereas a
great many other States run as low as 80 percent. Naturally, there
must be migration from the higher to the lower birth-rate areas.
Mr. Jackson. That is right.
Mr. Sparkman. I remember at our hearings in New York some
gentleman, I believe the director of public assistance in one of the
New England States, said : "If my State gets mules from your State
we pay you for raising those mules, but if your children come to live
in our State and are educated in your State, we pay you nothing
for them." Do you not think that is an argument for variable grants
to those areas that are serving, as one witness said to us, as the seed
pods of the Nation ?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3549
VARIABLE GRANT T-ORMIILA UNDISCOVERED
Mr. Jackson. I think there are many arguments in favor of vari-
able grants, and wlien they get through we would feel that just as
the local people not on relief must live by the standards and under
the general conditions of the community, so must other citizens who
live there, and find the need for relief, and choose that as their
residence, rely upon their State and the citizens of the State to
supply that need as they can afford it, and it may be that we would
get on a matching basis after that. But so far as a variable basis
is concerned, any formula would be highly indirect, and is as yet
undiscovered.
Mr. Sparkman. If you follow your argument to its logical conclu-
sion, i do not see any argument for the Federal Government to par-
ticipate. You say it is impossible to determine that as between
citizens in the same community. Then why should the Federal Govern-
ment participate?
Mr. Jackson. Because all levels of Government should participate
to a degree. For instance, this participation in the migratory prob-
lem is a national participation, since the localities could not supply
all the funds. The reasons have been placed before you on many
occasions in terms of taxing ability, but with the help of the States,
and we think, in our opinion, except in cases of widespread disaster,
that generally the matching basis, in the long run, works out better.
The Chairman. We thank you very much for your statement,
Mr. Jackson.
TESTIMONY OF ROLAND LeGRAND SWEARENGIN,
WASHINGTON, D. C.
The Chairman. The next witness is Mr. Swearengin, and Mr.
Curtis will proceed with the questioning.
Mr. Curtis. What is your name?
Mr. Swearengin. Roland LeGrand Swearengin.
Mr. Curtis. Where are you now living?
Mr. Swearengin. At 728 Fifth Street NIV., Washington.
Mr. Curtis. Where were you bom?
Mr. Swearengin. In Bath County, Va., near Millboro.
Mr. Curtis. Are you married?
Mr. Swearengin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. Where was your wife born?
Mr. Swearengin. In Bath County, Va.
Mr. Curtis. Is this your first marriage?
Mr. Swearengin. My second marriage.
Mr. Curtis. Is your first wife living?
Mr. Swearengin. No, sir ; she is dead. She died of pneumonia.
Mr. Curtis. How many children have you?
Mr, Swearengin. Two.
Mr. Curtis. Both of them by your last marriage?
Mr. Swearengin. No, one by the first marriage and one by the
second.
3550
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Curtis. What is their age ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. The boy by the first marriage is 7 years old past,
and the girl by my second wife is 2 years old.
Mr. Curtis. Have you and Mrs. Swearengin lived in Bath County
most of your lives, in Millboro?
BECAME ROVING PLASTERER
Mr. Swearengin. I was born and raised about seven miles from
Millboro and lived there until I was about 17, when I left that
part of the country and went into Ohio and learned the plastering
trade at Marion. Then I traveled about over the country until along
in the latter part of 1929, when I came back to Bath County, where
my folks were.
Mr. Curtis. How much education have you had ?
Mr. Swearengin. One year of high school.
Mr. Curtis. How much education did your wife have?
Mr. Swearengin. She finished the seventh grade.
Mr. Curtis. You say you are a plasterer?
Mr. Swearengin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. With how many years' experience?
Mr. Swearengin. About 18 years.
Mr. Curtis. Are you a member of a union in Washington?
Mr. Swearengin. No, sir.
Mr. Curtis. Can you get any work?
Mr. Swearengin. Yes; I can get work; but now, at the present
time, I am not able to work.
Mr. Curtis. What is your disability?
Mr. Swearengin. A strained wrist.
Mr. Curtis. Wliat does that develop into?
Mr. Swearengin. The doctors say that is developing into arthritis.
Mr. Curtis. Where have you worked as a plasterer ?
Mr. Swearengin. I have worked in 27 States, from the New Eng-
land States to the southern States, and I have worked as far west as
Nebraska.
Mr. Curtis. In what year did you begin to work as a plasterer?
Mr. Swearengin. In 1922.
Mr. Curtis. During the years from 1922 to 1929, how long did you
stay in a place, usually ?
Mr. Swearengin. Well, I was in Marion, Ohio, I would say
around — of course, I did not stay there continuously, but made that
my headquarters until 1929. Of course, I was not there all the time.
I was traveling on the road to get jobs, and when I finished a job
I always went back to Marion, as I lived with an aunt there and made
that my headquarters.
Mr. Curtis. Did you work on dwelling construction, or larger
construction ?
Mr. Swearengin. I have worked on practically every type of build-
ing, from a one-story dwelling house to a 50-story building.
Mr. Curtis. Is plastering what you call seasonal work ?
Mr. Swearengin. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. How limited is it ?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3551
Mr. SwEARENGiN. I sliould saj it is very limited. If a man gets
as much as 8 months out of the year he has done exceedingly well.
Most of them run from 4 to 5 or 6 months.
Mr. Curtis. About what was your average ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. I would say from the time I started to serve my
apprenticeship, or my apprentice course, until around 1930, I would
say I got my 8 months per year, and from about 1930 until about
1935, I imagine, averaging, taking one year with the other, I fell
down to less than 3 months.
Mr. Curtis. Would you say you would average as much as 6 months
per year during that time ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Ycs, I made out fairly good.
Mr. Curtis. Wliat were your wages ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. I have gone as high as $16 a day, but as the
wages run now they have run anywhere from $8 to $12. I have
worked on jobs for as low as $5.
MIGRANT PLASTERERS AND CARPENTERS
Mr. Curtis. Do a great many plasterers find it necessary to travel
around ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Yes ; it is very customary for carpenters to be
on the road. Of course, there are a few who are lucky enough to
get into a job that is permanent and they do not have to stay on
the road, but there are always plasterers on the road.
You take one boss, and he does not have enough steady work to
keep a full force going, and therefore he will take men in transit
work until the busy season is over, and then they are laid off.
Mr. Curtis. In some larger cities there might be enough to keep
a few plasterers going all the time, without having to travel around ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Yes. If you take some cities with a population
of 100,000, you will find there are some men in those cities that have
all-the-year-round jobs.
Mr. Curtis. Your old home in Virginia is no such community as
that?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. No, sip.
Mr. Curtis. How big a place is Millboro, approximately ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. It probably has a thousand inhabitants.
Mr. Curtis. How about Marion, Ohio ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. I think Marion runs about 50,000 population.
Mr. Curtis. Where is your residence now ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Well, I do not guess I have any. I travel around
over the country until I do not guess I have a permanent residence,
Mr. Curtis. When did you leave Bath County, Va. ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. I left there the last time — t was there 2 years ago
in August, a year this past August. I was back there 2 years before,
a year this coming Christmas.
Mr. Curtis. Do you still consider it your home ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Well, no; I have not considered it my home,
I would say, since I left there as a youngster. Of course, when I came
back there in 1939 my father was living on a farm, but he died, and
org2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
the farm was sold and my mother remarried. I have not quite con-
sidered it my home since 1932.
Mr. CuKTis. How many brothers and sister did you have?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. My father was married twice and in the 2 fam-
ilies there are 20 of us living.
Mr. Curtis. Is your mother living now ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Yes.
Mr. CuKTis. How old a lady is she?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Mother is past 56.
Mr. Curtis. Have you had any work as a plasterer in 1939 and 1940?
Mr. Swearengin. Yes ; I have had more work in 1939 and 1940 than
I have had from 1930 to 1939.
Mr. Curtis. Where were you working ?
Mr. Swearengin. In 1939 I worked at the Natural Bridge Station,
in Mount Crawford, Va. ; in Staunton, Va. ; in Waynesboro, Va. ; in
Richmond, and then in Washington.
Mr. Curtis. When did you come to Washington ?
Mr. Swearengin. I came here the first day of July.
Mr. Curtis. What year?
Mr. Swearengin. This year.
Mr. Curtis. Why did you come to Washington ?
Mr. Swearengin. I was working on a rooming house in Richmond,
doing some repair work. I picked up a copy of the Richmond Times
Dispatch and saw an advertisement for plasterers to report at Four-
teenth and L Streets, with tools, for 6 months' work.
Mr. Curtis. How did you come here?
Mr. Swearengin. A friend of mine brought me in his car.
Mr. Curtis. Did you bring your family?
Mr. Swearengin. No ; I did not bring my family then. I worked
here about 3 weeks.
Mr. Curtis. You got work here, as advertised ?
Mr. Swearengin. Yes; I got here in the evening on Monday, and
went to work on Tuesday.
Mr. Curtis. What did they pay you ?
Mr. Swearengin. I got a dollar an hour.
Mr. Curtis. You went to work about the second or third of July?
Mr. Swearengin. I went to work on the second.
Mr. Curtis. How long did you work at $8 a day ?
Mr. Savearengin. I worked from July until the 19th of September,
when I was laid off.
Mr. Curtis. That particular job was concluded ?
Mr. Swearengin. No, that was at Sixteenth and L, and I was trans-
ferred to a job at Thirty-ninth and Davis Place, and from there to
another job off of Tunlaw Road, and was transferred from that one
to Hyattsville, Md., and from there back to Alexandria, Va.
Mr. Curtis. All with the same contractor?
Mr. Swearengin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. And the last job you say ended on September 19?
Mr. Swearengin. Yes, sir ; I was laid off.
Mr. Curtis. Did you have any unemployment compensation ?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3553
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Yes ; I guess I am entitled to unemployment
compensation, but no\N' I am under a doctor's care and unable to
draw it.
Mr. Curtis. Why can you not draw it ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. You uiust be physically able to work and un-
employed to draw unemployment compensation. You cannot draw
it while under a doctor's care.
MEDICAL CARE PROVIDED
Mr. Curtis. Have you any medical care from any Federal health
institution ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN, Yes ; from George Washington Hospital. I was
there for 3 weeks, and the Health Security backed me for my hospital
bill.
Mr. Curtis. Has your wife had any help from the Public Health
authorities.
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Ycs ; she goes to the hospital now.
Mr. Curtis. How did you manage to keep your household together
without any work?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. The Travelers' Aid has been paying my rent and
giving me a grocery order each week.
Mr. Curtis. You say your wife is in the hospital now ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. No ; she attends the hospital.
Mr. Curtis. She is being cared for by the hospital ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Yes.
Mr, Curtis. Is the hospital paying for that ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. No ; we have to go to the Health Security and
get a pass through the Health Security for her attention at the
hospital, and also for mine.
Mr. Curtis. What do you mean by Health Security ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. That is located at 1823 L Street.
Mr. Curtis. Your wife is an expectant mother?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. That is right.
Mr. Curtis. She is receiving some medical aid that is furnished to
nonresidents ?
Mr, SwEARENGiN. Ycs ; it is more of a semimonthly check-up, than
anything else.
Mr. Curtis. You are considered a nonresident of the District of
Columbia ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. But you have no other place that you do consider as
your residence?
Mr. SwEARENGiN, I do uot gucss Iliave a legal residence,
Mr, Curtis. Is this the first time you ever had to be concerned
about a residence or settlement ?
Mr, SwEARENGiN, Yes, sir,
Mr, Curtis. Have you ever had any public assistance at any time
before ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Yes ; I worked with a relief job as a laborer for
about 2 months.
3554
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Curtis. Where was that ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. That was in Bath County, Va. That was about
2 years ago.
Mr. Curtis. When you went back there and visited them?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. That was between jobs. For a while I made that
my headquarters and traveled back and forth. When I would get
through with a job there might be a month, or sometimes 3 or 4 months,
until I would land another job, and in the meantime I made my head-
quarters in that part of the country, part of the time with some of my
relatives, and part of the time with some of my wife's relatives.
Mr. Curtis. Could you go back there at this time?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. As far as I know I could.
Mr. Curtis, Would you be denied any assistance?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. I do uot kuow that I would. I suppose I could
go back there and get on relief again as a laborer, but even so, at this
particular time I would not be able to hold a job.
Mr. Curtis. When you were there in 1938, on W. P. A., they did
not raise any question about the fact that you had been gone for some
time?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Ycs ; when I applied for the job I had to go down
and spend 3 or 4 hours with the county supervisors before I got on
the job.
Mr. Curtis. Wliat did they ask you about, your residence ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. About some general questions, as to where I was
raised, where I had spent my time, and so on. I do not suppose they
went down deep enough to really find out whether I was a resident
or a nonresident. I presume they took it for granted I was a resident.
Mr. Curtis. You considered that your home?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. That is right.
Mr. Curtis. You do not consider it your home now ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. If I was to consider any place other than where
I am living now, I would have to consider that as my home.
The Chairman. You thought your wrist was sprained originally ?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How did you find out it was arthritis?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. You see, I only sprained my wrist on the job. I
reported to my foreman ; I told him I had sprained my wrist, and it
seemed that was a very common thing ; and I worked, let us see, around
7 days after I sprained it. I was laid off on Friday, and on Monday
I went up to this clinic to have a doctor look at my arm. He looked it
over, and after he examined my arm he said, "I believe you have some
fever." So, he took my temperature and I did have some fever. He
said, "I think you have arthritis. Go back home."
So, he gave me a slip to go back home, and he said, "If your arm is
no better by Wednesday go to the Health Security and get a pass
and come back to the hospital."
So, on Wednesday I did not go back ; I did go over on Thursday ;
I went to the Health Security and got a pass and went down and
entered the hospital. Ajid, they checked me over from every stand-
point.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3555
NO COMPENSATION FOR ARTHRITIS \TCTIM
Mr. Curtis. Were any pictures or X-rays taken?
Mr. SwEAKENGiN. Yes ; they took two X-rays of my wrists, and both
showed there was no fracture. And they also X-rayed my sinus;
X-rayed my chest, and also my teeth. In fact, they took 13 X-rays
and said I had a local infection somewhere that was causing the
arthritis but were unable to find it. So, they took my tonsils out and
made a serum, and that is why I am going down to the hospital every
5 days ; I get a shot of that antitoxin.
Yesterday I went to the hospital and consulted a specialist, and
I do not believe that he is in favor of thinking that I have arthritis ;
I do not believe he said so in so many words, but the others have
all told me there was no reason for putting in for workman's com-
pensation, that they did not think that I was due workman's com-
pensation ; but, he told me yesterday to put in for my compensation,
and to get the claim in and so I have taken steps to try to get my
compensation.
Mr. CtiRTis. By workman's compensation you mean unemployed
compensation ?
Mr. SWEARENGIN. No.
Mr. Curtis. Unemployment compensation?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. No ; I mean workman's compensation.
Mr. Sparkman. For injury?
Mr. Curtis. You previously testified that you could not get
unemployment compensation.
Mr. Sparkman. This is workman's compensation he is referring to.
There is a difference.
Mr. SwEARENGiN. You iCanuot get unemployment compensation
while you are unable to work.
Mr. Curtis. But one of them did advise you that you should put
in for compensation?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Yes. In order to get unemployment compensa-
tion, you simply go down — you do not have to file for it — you simply
go down for employment, if you are able to work, and if they find
you a job and you go to work, and if they do not find a job you get your
unemployment compensation. But if you are unable to work you
cannot draw unemployment compensation.
Mr. Curtis. The question of workman's compensation was whether
or not this injury was caused or aggravated by your employment?
Mr. SwExVRENGiN. That is right; if my wrist is the sole cause of
my trouble then I can draw workman's compensation, but if it is not,
if it is arthritis, due to a local infection, then I would not draw
workman's compensation.
Mr. Curtis. This last doctor thought perhaps you would be entitled
to workman's compensation?
Mr. SwEARENGiN. That is right.
Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. SwEARENGiN. Thank you.
260370—41 — pt. 9-
gr^gg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM HOWARD FRENCH, WASHINGTON, D. C.
Mr. Spakkman. Will you give your full name and address to the
reporter ?
Mr. French. William Howard French.
Mr. Sparkman. Where do you live?
Mr. French. 1524 Twenty-sixth Street NW., Washington, D. C.
Mr. Sparkman. Where were you born ?
Mr. French. I was born near Wilmington, North Carolina.
Mr. Sparkman. With whom did you live as a child?
Mr. French. I lived with my family — ^by that I mean my foster
parents.
Mr. Sparkman. How much schooling do you have ?
Mr. French. But very little.
Mr. Sparkman. Can you read ?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How did you learn to read ?
Mr. French. Learned myself. Some of it I learned in Sunday
school when I was a child.
Mr. Sparkman. What was your first employment?
Mr. French. Farming.
Mr. Sparkman. What work have you followed most of your life?
Mr. French. Well, the most of my life I followed coal mining.
Mr. Sparkman. Where?
Mr. French. West Virginia, Kentucky, Pemisylvania, and Ohio,
Mr. Sparkman. How much did you make on the job as a miner, on
the average?
Mr. French. Sometimes very little ; maybe $40 ; sometimes $30, some-
times $20, and sometimes less than that.
Mr. Sparkman. How long did you work in the coal mines?
Mr. French. Nineteen years.
Mr. Sparkman. Were you able to save any money?
Mr, French. No.
Mr. Sparkman. How were you paid for the coal mining work ? By
the day, by the week, or how ?
Mr. French. We were paid by the car until we had a union.
Mr. Sparkman. Until you had what ?
Mr. French. A union — miners' union — in 1931.
Mr. Sparkman. Then how were you paid ?
Mr. French. We were paid by the ton.
Mr. Sp.arkman. By the ton?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How much per ton ?
COAL miners' wages INCREASED
Mr. French. Well, it began at 22 cents a ton, after we left the car
system. And, in 1933 we got a union and got 56 cents a ton ; and in
1936 we got a raise, in the union, to 76 cents a ton for machine coal,
and $1.01 for pick coal.
Mr. Sparkman. It looks as though under that scale of Avages you
would have been able to make more than you did.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3557
Mr. French. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Sparkman. Why were you not able to make any more than you
did when you were getting paid that much ?
Mr. French. The reason I did not make anymore was because the
operators would not allow you to; the mine only worked part time.
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, you did not have sufficient work to
earn more ^
Mr. French. No.
Mr. Sparkman. You were on part-time operation ?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. With whom did you live in West Virginia ?
Mr. French. Well, when I was in West Virginia, a part of the time,
until I left, with my foster parents.
Mr. Sparkman. What were their names?
Mr. French. Alsop.
Mr. Sparkman. How old are you ?
Mr. French. Fifty-one.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you have a family of your own ?
Mr. French. No.
Mr. Sparkman. You are not married ?
Mr. French. No.
Mr. Sparkman. Are your foster parents still living ?
Mr. French. My foster mother is; my foster father died Decem-
ber 2, 1939.
Mr. Sparkman. Where does you foster mother live?
Mr. French. She lives at my address.
Mr. Sparkman. Here in Washington ?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You live here with her ?
Mr. French. I live with her.
Mr. Sparkman. What was your foster father's employment?
Mr. French. He was a plasterer by trade.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you ever worked with him ?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you know the trade of plasterer?
Mr. French. No, I do not; I did not learn it.
Mr. Sparkman. What kind of work did you do with him?
Mr. French. I made mortar and waited on him. I learned to put
the day, by the week, or how ?
Mr. Sparkman. Did you ever farm any ^
Mr. French. I
17 years of age.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you farm any later on ?
Mr. French. No.
Mr. Sparkman. You have not farmed any since that time?
Mr. French. No.
Mr. Sparkman. When did you come to Washington ?
Mr. French. I came to Washington in November 1938.
Mr. Sparkman. How did you happen to come here ?
Mr. French. I came here with my foster parents.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you done any work since you have been here ?
3558
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. French. Well, yes; some.
Mr. Sparkman. What were some of the jobs? Let me put it this
way : Have you been steadily employed ?
Mr. French. No ; it has not been steady.
Mr. Sparkman. It consisted of what jobs?
Mr. French. Wliat kind of jobs?
Mr. Sparkman. Yes; what were their nature?
Mr. French. Well, waiting on my foster father as a plasterer, help-
ing in carpenter work; and I also worked at the recreation center in
Georgetown.
Mr. Sparkman. That was the last job you had?
Mr. French. That was the last job ; yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Working at the recreation center ?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What did you do there?
Mr. French. Setting up pins in the bowling alley.
Mr. Sparkman. Why did you quit that ?
Mr. French. Got my foot broke.
Mr. Sparkman. Wlien was that ?
Mr. French. January 8, 1939— no, 1940.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you go to the hospital ?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you draw compensation?
Mr. French. I did not go to the hospital for that.
Mr. Sparkman. You did not ?
Mr. French. No; but I did go to the hospital.
Mr. Sparkman. And how long were you out of work with a broken
foot?
Mr. French. I was out until April.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you draw compensation ?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. For the injury?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How long did you draw compensation ?
Mr. French. I drew compensation from February until April.
Mr. Sparkman. How much did you draw ?
Mr. French. I think it averaged about $6.30 per week.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you go back to the bowling alley ?
Mr. French. No ; it was shut down ; it does not run in the summer.
Mr. Sparkman. How about this fall, after it opened up ?
Mr. French. Sir ?
Mr. Sparkman. Did it open up this fall ?
Mr. French. Yes ; it opened up in the fall.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you tried to get employment there?
Mr. French. I was not able.
Mr. Sparkman. Why?
Mr. French. I was not able when it opened up.
Mr. Sparkman. Why were you not able?
Mr. French. Because I had just been released from the hospital.
Mr. Sparkman. What have you been in the hospital this time for?
Mr. French. I was in the hospital from June 6 to August 15.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3559
Mr. Sparkman. What was the trouble?
Mr. French. Throat ; I had a goiter removed.
Mr. Sparkman. You had a goiter removed ?
Mr. French. Yes.
DENIED RELHIF IN DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
Mr. Sparkman. Have you ever received or asked for relief?
Mr. French. Yes ; I asked for it.
Mr. Sparkman. Were you able to get it ?
Mr. French. No.
Mr. Sparkman. Why?
Mr. French. Because they said I could not prove that I had sup-
ported myself for 1 year in the District of Columbia, and I was not
a District resident.
Mr. Sparkman. No. What State was your last residence before
you came to the District of Columbia?
Mr. French. It was Ohio.
Mr. Sparkman. How long have you been gone from Ohio ?
Mr. French. I left Ohio in May 1938.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you ever checked to find out whether or not
you were still a resident of Ohio ?
Mr. French. Some lady did.
Mr. Sparkman. Someone connected with the relief?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. And what did she find out ?
Mr. French. She found out I had been away for 1 year.
Mr. Sparkman. You were absent from Ohio for 1 year?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Which kept you from being a resident of Ohio ?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Although you have been in the District of Columbia
over 2 years ?
Mr. French. Have been in the District for the past 2 years.
Mr. Sparkivian. Have you been here for 2 years and still you are
not a resident in the District of Columbia ?
Mr. French. No.
Mr. Sparkman. Where are you a resident ?
Mr. French. No place, I guess.
Mr. Sparkman. That is all.
Mr. Curtis. When did you first ask for relief here in the District
of Columbia ?
Mr. French. I first asked for relief when I was in the hospital.
Mr. Curtis. This year ?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. You had then lived in the District of Columbia about
18 months; is that correct?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Who supported you during that year and a half ?
Mr. French. Wlio supported me ?
ocgQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Curtis. Yes ; during the year and a half you have been living
Mr. French. Well, my foster father and my foster mother— we put
what we made together and lived together. ,..-,• ^. ^
Mr. Curtis. Did your foster parents draw any relief durnig that
year and a half ?
Mr. French. No.
Mr. Curtis. It looks to me like he has been here a year.
Mr. Sparkman. Why is it that you could not prove that you had been
within the District of Columbia for 1 year ?
Mr. French. I did not understand you.
Mr Sparkman. Wliy is it you could not prove you had lived m the
District of Columbia for at least a year and have been supporting your-
self during that time? Otherwise you would be eligible for relief,
would you not ? ^ ■, -, ,>
Mr. French. Well, the lady at the relief office told me my foster
mother had worked for a year for $5 a week and that she had supported
the family.
Mr. Sparkman. Instead of yourself ?
Mr. Fpjench. Instead of me.
Mr. Sparkman. Is your foster mother working now ?
Mr. French. She works a day and a half a week.
Mr. Sparkman. What does she get ?
Mr. French. Two dollars a day, and carfare.
Mr. Sparkman. That is $3 a week?
Mr. French. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. She gets carfare, how about her meals?
Mr. French. She gets her meals.
Mr. Sparkman. Is that the only steady income?
Mr. French. That is all.
Mr. Sparkman. How do you live on that ; you cannot live on that.
Mr. French. No. Well, occasionally I get an odd job myself. I get
50 cents or maybe a quarter or 30 cents, something like that. Some-
times it may be" more. Last week I made $5.
Mr. Sparkman. $5 last week ?
Mr. French. Yes. I washed dishes for a lady and did some house-
work for her.
Mr. Sparkman. That is all.
The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. French.
The committee will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
(At 4: 15 p. m. an adjournment was taken- until 10 a. m. of the fol-
lowing day, Friday, Dec. 6, 1940.)
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 6, 1940
House of Representatives,
Select Committee to iNvrcsTiGATE the
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens,
Washingto7i, D. C.
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon John J. Sparkman presiding.
Present: Representatives John J. Sparkman, Claude V. Parsons,
and Carl T. Curtis.
(Chairman Tolan was absent because of illness; Mr. Osmers was
out of the city on account of business.)
Also present : Robert K. Lamb, chief investigator ; Henry H. Col-
lins, Jr., coordinator of hearings; Creekmore Fath, and John W.
Abbott, field investigators ; Ariel E. V. Dunn and Alice M. Tuohy, as-
sistant field investigators; Irene M. Hageman, hearings secretary;
Richard S. Blaisdell, editor; Harold C. Cullen, associate editor.
Mr. Sparkman. The committee will be in order. The first wit-
nesses this morning will be Mr. Clague, Dr. Coffee, and Mr. Alves.
PANEL TESTIMONY OF EWAN CLAGUE, DIRECTOR, BUREAU OP EM-
PLOYMENT SECURITY; DR. E. R. COFPEE, UNITED STATES PUBLIC
HEALTH SERVICE; HENRY S. ALVES, OFFICE OF EDUCATION ; AND
MARTIN F. CARPENTER, BUREAU OF EMPLOYMENT SECURITY
Mr. Sparkman. Will each of you gentlemen give the reporter your
name, and state the official capacity in which you appear?
Mr. Clague. My name is Ewan Clague, Director of the Bureau of
Employment Security.
Dr. Coffee. I am Dr. E. R. Coffee, of the Public Health Service.
Mr. Alves. My name is Henry S. Alves, from the United States
Office of Education.
Mr. Sparkman. Gentlemen, we have the prepared statements that
ou have submitted to us, and they will become a part of the record,
"e would like for you gentlemen, to proceed in whatever way you
see fit. It may be that each one of you will be glad to give the high
points of your particular paper, and then have us ask some questions.
Of course, while that is being done individually, we want each of
you to feel free to interrupt at any time and make any comment
or ask any question you wish.
Mr. Clague, your statement will be entered in the record at this
point, and then you may discuss the subject matter.
(The statement is as follows :)
3561
^:
3562
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
STATEMENT BY EWAN CLAGUE, DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF EMPLOYMENT
SECURITY, SOCIAL SECURITY BOARD
The Program of the Bureau of Employment Security As It Relates to
Migration
The labor available today for employment in any single manufacturing or
agricultural area can be defined no longer by geographic boundaries. Cotton
pickers arrive in the fields of Arizona from the adjoining State of California
or from as far east as Mississippi and Tennessee. Beet workers move north
through the Great Plains and Rocky Mountain States harvesting the suger-beet
crop. Up and down the eastern and western seaboard agricultural workers
follow the fruit and vegetable crops, many of them crossing State lines several
times during a season. These agricultural areas constitute a labor market in
which supply and demand factors operate without regard to civil or administra-
tive boundaries. . ^^ , , ^
The mobility which characterizes the supply of seasonal agricultural labor is
also common to other occupations and in other industries. For a long time
students of labor mobility have realized that railroad, construction, and oil
field workers follow the source of their employment and in many cases maintain
only temporary residence in a community. Recently the increase in production
of materials essential to national defense has drawn the skilled labor supply
of our country into areas of industrial activity. All of these migrants— those
who regularly follow some seasonal or shifting employment, those who move
from depressed areas to areas of labor demand, and those unemployed who
travel haphazardly from one place to another always in the hope of finding
some permanent means of subsistence— present special problems which are the
concern of Government agencies interested in the economic security of labor.
stabilization of workers' income
The Bureau of Employment Security attempts to stabilize the income of these
workers in two ways: First, by providing a national system of employment
exchanges organized to bring workers in contact with the jobs for which they
qualify; and second, by providing compensation for temporary loss of income
during periods of unemployment. Today the United States Employment Service
offers a uniform procedure through which workers may receive information
regarding job openings in every section of the country. It is no longer neces-
sary to migrate from an isolated community to some large industrial center in
the search for employment. Approximately 1,500 public employment offices In
51 States and TeiTitories of the United States are operating to serve the needs of
labor and employers. In addition over 3,000 locations in sparsely populated
areas are visited periodically by itinerant interviewers. These offices make
possible the widespread circulation of employer orders and the dissemination of
information regarding job opportunities. A national system for the interstate
control of employer orders and the referral of labor has recently been organized
on a regional basis so that, when the supply of labor in a particular occupation
is exhausted in one region, orders may be cleared systematically in other regions.
This has greatly facilitated the referral of workers to defense industries in
spite of certain stringencies in the labor market.
SHOULD DISTRIBUTE JOB INFORMATION
Through the use of State employment services, and a national system for the
distribution of reliable job information and the clearance of labor between
States, much of the unnecessary migration of unemployed job seekers can be
eliminated. As workers and employers learn to use the facilities of the United
States Employment Service the number of persons who leave their home com-
munities in search of employment only to become destitute migrants will
decrease.
Employment Service facilities can also be used effectively to direct the move-
ment of workers who migrate in response to seasonal demands for labor. This
is especially true in agriculture where the objective of the service is to meet the
needs of both growers and workers and at the same time to avoid vmnecessary
and fruitless migration. Functioning in the agricultural labor market, and in
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3563
cooperation with ottier agencies, the Employment Service can be a means of
stabilizing farm-labor resources, providing a more adequate income to a limited
number of qualified workers, eliminating the irresponsible recruiting practices
of labor contractors, and providing growers with workers who are experienced
in a particular tyi)e of crop activity.
UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION FOR MIGRANTS INSUFFICIENT
The present unemployment compensation program offers a certain amount of
economic security to migratory workers. State unemployment compensation
systems provide that every unemployed worker who meets the qualifying I'e-
quirements for benefits in the State in which he has been employed is entitled
to receive those benefits even though he may have moved to another State. This
system of interstate claims permits workers to return to their home communi-
ties, or to move on to another State in search of work, during periods of unem-
ployment without foregoing their benefit rights. Thus, through the receipt of
unemployment compensation many covered workers who migrate across State
lines, as well as those who remain in the community, obtain some protection
against loss of income.
A recent study has been made in Tennessee using data concerning interstate
claims filed in that State against benefit rights earned in Michigan. An analysis
of this material indicates that a pattern of migration exists between rural areas
in Tennessee and industrial centers in Michigan. The Tennessee workers who
migrate in response to seasonal demand in Michigan's industries, return to their
homes during seasons of slack industrial employment. Many of these workers
are prevented from becoming stranded in Michigan by their ability to qualify for
unemployment compensation.
However, present State unemployment-compensation programs do not meet the
needs of all groups of migrants. Every State unemployment-compensation law
with the exception of that for the District of Columbia specifically exempts agri-
cultural labor. Other States, through their eligibility requirements and their
limitations on benefits paid to seasonal workers, in effect exclude many seasonal
migratory workers. Still a third group of migrants is excluded because they
have not been employed long enough in any one State to qualify for benefits under
any State unemployment-compensation law, although their total wage credits, if
earned in a single State, would have been suflBcient to qualify for benefits. If the
present increase in production of defense materials tends to stimulate labor
mobility, this group of workers, who cannot qualify for benefits because they have
moved to employment in another State, may increase significantly.
MUST INCREASE MIGRANT INCOMES
There is a pressing need to provide a continuing income to migratory workers
who by reason of short periods of employment coupled with low incomes are
frequently without resources. The employment service may help to eliminate
long periods of unemployment and to prevent the misdirected and uneconomical
migration of workers.
Effective coverage of migratory workers under unemployment compensation
depends in large part on the extension of coverage to agricultural workers gen-
erally, and on the liberalization of seasonal exclusions, since so many migrants are
attached to agriculture or some other seasonal industry. These extensions involve
problems of administration and cost. Whether the costs should be borne pri-
marily by the seasonal industries (including agriculture), whose labor needs
require a mobUe reserve of migratory workers, is a question in need of further
serious study. Furthermore, the administration of a system of unemployment
compensation for agricultural workei-s is itself complicated by the fact that so
many agricultural workers are migrants. Since a worker would be required to
register for work and claim benefits reasonably near his place of employment
or his residence, a considerable extension of the services now available through
the public employment offices would be necessary.
The problem of obtaining benefits for workers who, although nominally cov-
ered, have not remained in any one State long enough to qualify is directly
related to the marked differences in State unemployment-compensation laws. The
possibility of establishing standard eligibility requirements for every State is
3564 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
very small. Under the Tax Act no provision is made for a Federal fmid or the
establishment of certain Federal eligibility requirements which vpould enable the
Federal agency to administer a system of benefit payments to interstate migrants.
TESTIMONY OF EWAN CLAGUE— Resumed
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Clague, you may proceed as you see fit.
Mr. Clague. I think the relationship of our Bureau of Employment
Security to this whole problem has two main aspects. In this Bureau
we combine the work of the United States Employment Service
and the work of the Federal and State systems of unemployment
compensation.
With respect to our Employment Service activities, we play a part
in the migrant problem, particularly in two ways : one, in facilitating
the movement of workers to places where they are needed for work,
and the other is in restraining or in modifying useless or needless
migration of workers where the workers, perhaps, should not be moved
from one part of the country to another. In our unemployment com-
pensation activities, we have a system of State unemployment-compen-
sation benefits by means of which workers are paid unemployment
compensation for a period of time following a period of work, and since
much of this migration is fi^om one State to another, we have devised
a system of interstate benefit payments by which a worker who is
qualified in one State may receive his benefits while in another State
looking for work. This system is now adliered to by all the States
of the Union except the District of Coliunbia, which is prevented from
doing it by its statutes. We have over the period of the last 2 years
perfexjted, or at least developed, the system or the interstate arrange-
ment by which workers are paid in one State who have come from
another State. In that way we do insure to some extent that the
worker who does move around looking for work is not deprived of
unemployment compensation.
On the other hand, I must point out that w^orkers who work in
different States and are unable to earn enough wages in one State to
qualify in any one State in consequence of their rapid movement, may
be deprived of any benefits or rights whatsoever. Also, even where
they do qualify, the amounts of their benefit rights are comparatively
small. We have some studies which have a bearing on that and
show something of the extent to which these interstate migrants do
fall short of getting the unemployment compensation that they might
be entitled to on the basis of their work if it were all concentrated in
the same State.
UNCXDNTROLLED DEFENSE MIGRATION
With respect to the employment service question, I might mention
again that we have had in the past a very great problem, particularly
with respect to the interstate migration of farm labor. At the present
time, due to the tremendous expansion of the defense industries, we
have an industrial flow of migration which in certain respects takes
on some of the characteristics of the farm-labor migration, with this
difference: that probably a larger percentage of the migrants are
directed toward jobs which may likely materialize, whereas in the
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3565
former case of farm-labor migration, the opportunity may not mate-
rialize. However, in a great many of the States where they have new
cantonments going up and new defense industries being established,
they have started to get a more extensive uncontrolled migration
than we had in the case of the agricultural migration. The Employ-
ment Service is endeavoring to establish machinery by which to con-
trol that migration, moving workers to places where they are needed,
and keeping out the workers who are not needed, but who would
simply cause a social, health, and welfare problem when they moved in.
NATION-WIDE EMPLOYMENT CLEARANCE
We have established an interstate Nation-wide clearance machinery.
The machinery, it is true, already existed, but it has been gradually
developed and extended, because so many workers are moving across
State lines, and because so many jobs are being offered that we cannot
fill locally. In this machinery, we have a series of clearance offices
by which we clear people for jobs offered in an area where they
cannot be filled locally. If we cannot fill them in that way, we pass
them into the Nation-wide network. A great many jobs at the
present time are filled without going through the clearance mecha-
nism in order to be filled, particularly in the skilled occupations.
Perhaps, I should say a word about the farm or agricultural
labor. We have always been deeply conscious of this widespread
agricultural migration, and have from time to time endeavored to
wor"k out some satisfactory method of controlling the migration from
the Employment Service point of view. I believe we now have a
mechanism by which that can be done, and we are expecting to
develop that during the next 6, 8, or 9 months, preparatory for the
work next summer.
I think that, perhaps, presents the subject from our point of view.
I will be glad, of course, to answer any questions.
MODIFIED FARM PLACEMENT SERVICE
Mr. Sparkman, You say you have machinery for handling the
farm migrant situation now. Is that a Farm Placement Service ?
Mr. Claghe. It is a modification of the Farm Placement Service
we have had for some time. For some time we have discussed this
along with certain problems in connection with the Farm Placement
Service and which were not wholly solved. We have never been
quite satisfied with the mechanism that we have, and we are now
modifying that in certain respects, and greatly improving it, so that
we hope we will have an efficient Farm Placement Service.
Mr. Sparkman. Wliat is the relationship between the Farm Place-
ment Service and the Veterans' Placement Service?
^ Mr. Ci^'^GUE. Theoretically, there is not necessarily any connec-
tion. We have in a few instances used the Veterans' Placement Service
representative as a farm placement service representative. Perhaps I
should explain that we have a Veterans' Placement Service, a Federal
service attached to the Federal bureau, by which we have one person
in the State with our Veterans' Placement Service in the State, or a
QKgg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
representative of the Federal bureau, who looks after the interests of
veterans in the placement service of the States. We have a much
smaller number of farm placement representatives. They are hmited
in number, and where the farm problem is less serious, particularly the
interstate migratory farm-labor problem, on a few occasions we have
in the past merged those two services with the Veterans' placement
representative in the State also handling farm placement work m the
State I should explain that we do not do any direct farm-place-
ment work as such. This man who is in the State is simply there to
help the State or aid it in operating its farm placement service. This
arrangement or combination with the Veterans' Placement Service
has not worked especially well, and it will be discontinued at any
place where it is in effect.
migrants' unemployment benefits meager
Mr. Sparkman. You discussed a few minutes ago the failure of
a great many migrants to get certain benefits, particularly unem-
ployment compensation benefits that they might have gotten had they
not been moving from State to State. I do not suppose you have the
information with you, but I wonder if you have it in your office,
showing to what extent that has been true.
Mr. Clague. Yes, sir; I do happen to have a study here on that
very point, from which I might cite something. I do not know
whether this study has previously come to your attention, or not,
in the course of your hearings. This study was made by Dr. Stanch-
field, chief, research, statistics and planning section, Michigan Un-
employment Commission. He made a survey of the situation in the
State of Michigan respecting workers in that State who went back
home and drew benefits from the State of Michigan, drawing them
in the States where they were living. A companion study was made
in the State of Tennessee. I might read you a few statistics from
Mr. Stanchfield's report. He makes this statement :
In 1939 about 20,000 indiyiduals filed interstate claims against Michigan,
and more than 12,000 individuals actually received benefits based on such
claims. Altogether, in the 2 years ending June 1940, at least 30,000 individuals
probably have filed claims in other States against the Michigan Unemployment
Compensation fund.
Here is an interesting statement from Dr. Stanchfield's report :
Less than 20 percent of the interstate claims come from States adjacent to
Michigan, while 80 percent come from nonadjacent States. A relatively large
part of the total comes from the Appalachian States (Kentucky, Tennessee,
Pennsylvania, and West Virginia). Other important States to which migra-
tion occurs are New York, California, and Missouri.
In other words, these workers who come in to work in Detroit,
moving from Indiana and Illinois, represents only 20 percent of the
niunber, while 80 percent come from States farther away. He says a
relatively large part of tlie total number comes from the Appalachian
States of Virginia, Kentuclcy, Tennessee, Pennsylvania, and West
Virginia.
This report further states :
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3567
A very large proportion of the interstate claimants have had insufficient em-
ployment to qualify for any benefits. In 1939, 42 percent of the interstate claim-
ants were found ineligible, vphile only 12.5 percent of all Michigan claims were
disallowed. This indicates that many of the migrants have had relatively
little work in Michigan, or that they have worked in employment which is not
protected by unemployment insurance.
WORKERS LOSE BENEFIT RIGHTS
In other words, out of the 20,000 workers who lived outside of the
State and who got work in Michigan and then went back home, 8,000
lost their benefit rights, or the benefit rights they might have had.
That was due to the fact that they did not work long enough in Michi-
gan to become qualified under the Michigan law. However, if they had
been able to add to their earnings in Michigan earnings they received
in Tennessee, Kentucky, or Ohio, they might have had enough in all
the States combined to have received some rights.
There is one other point of interest here in this report. There is
no indication in this Michigan report that these workers were per-
forming low-grade work. It appears from the report that average
earnings were $13.46 as compared with $13.Y8 for the whole State.
Therefore it would appear that these out-of-State workers were not
engaged in an unskilled type of work, but that they were engaged in
work performed by the ordinary normal laboring people in the State
of Michigan. It would appear that they were of the average class
employed in the industry in which they were engaged.
Mr. Sparkman. Are these unemployment-compensation payments
made out of State funds ?
Mr. Clague. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. In which the Federal Government does not par-
ticipate ?
Mr. Clague. The Federal Government participates to the extent
that the administrative expenses are partly paid by the Federal
Government.
Mr. Sparkman. But not the benefit payments?
Mr. Clague. No, sir; not the benefit payments.
The State funds are deposited in the Treasury of the United States
as State unemployment-compensation reserve funds, but they can be
withdrawn by the State for the payment of benefits. They do not
belong to the Federal Treasury.
Mr. Sparkman. If these people who move from one State to another
could add their various periods of service and have them credited,
they would be entitled to benefits?
Mr. Clague. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sparbjvian. Do you have afty plan by which that might be
worked out?
Mr. Clague. We have been working on that in our bureau for some
time. We always did recognize that that provision should be in any
State plan. The diflSculty is that it must be split up among the States.
The first step we took, which we thought was important, was to make
some arrangement by which the States would honor each other's bene-
fit rights. All the States were willing to accept that except one, and
3568 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
all the States in the Union, except one, are now in that program. On
the other hand, there was the question of difference in those rights,
and there is the question of adding up the rights in the States. Where
the workers moved from one State to another, while the amounts might
be rather small, when added together they would make enough to qual-
ify the worker to receive benefits. That makes a pretty difficult ques-
tion for the States. There would be the problem in each State as tti
the qualification or eligibility regulations, and so forth, which each one
would be allowed to establish. The States differ in certain respects,
and sometimes it is more difficult to qualify in one State than in
another. We are continually working on that problem.
RELATIONSHIP OF PLACEMENT SERVICES
Mr. Sparkman. What is the relationship between the Farm Place-
ment Service and the State employment service ?
Mr. Clague. The Farm Placement Service, or the United States
Employment Service, under the Employment Security Bureau, is
really a type of assistance service that we supply to the States. There
are officials on our pay roll who are sent as representatives into the
States, and who reside in the States, working with the State head-
quarters. They are in the State employment service, and are there to
help the States handle the problem of farm placement, and, particu-
larly, to help the States to handle the placements across State lines.
Our people can move freely across State lines. There are also persons
who attempt to aid just in one State in the problem of farm placement.
Therefore, they direct their attention toward facilitating the move-
ment of workers or, possibly, limiting the movement of workers across
State lines where agricultural labor may or may not be placed. They
do not do any placement at all. Our Farm Placement Service is just
a facilitating service. It has no direct employment-service function.
It does not in any way directly modify the State employment service
practice, but serves in every way possible to assist the States in
handling the problems.
Mr. Sparkman. The States have set up State employment services ?
Mr. Clague. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. What part of that service is financed by the Federal
Government ?
Mr. Clague. A very large proportion of it. Through our Social
Security Board we make grants to the States for unemployment com-
pensation and for the employment services. They are 100-percent
grants — entirely Federal — for paying the salaries of State officials
engaged in that work.
states match federal funds
Mr. Sparkman. Is that true of both the unemployment compensation
and the State employment services ?
Mr. Clague. With this modification, that there still remains the
Wagner-Peyser fund, which is $3,000,000 a year of Federal money
available for matching by State funds on the 50-50 basis. One of the
Social Security Board's requirements is that any State which gets a
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3569
100-percent grant must first pay a proportionate amount to tliat $3,-
000,000 ; so tliat what finally liappens is tliat the State puts up its frac-
tion of the $3,000,000. They match that with the $3,000,000 of Wag-
ner-Peyser money. That goes into the fund, and whether it is for the
Employment Service or for unemployment compensation, it is paid out
of that Federal fund. To that extent, there is a small State fund
represented in the total amount. It runs at the present time to about
5 percent of the total administrative cost of the entire system.
Mr. Sparkman. That is for administrative cost?
Mr. Clague. Yes, sir. Prior to the Reorganization Act of July 1939
the Service was separated. The United States Employment Service
was in the Department of Labor, and the unemployment compensation
work was centered in tlie Social Security Board. I should explain,
however, that prior to that time the States and both Federal agencies,
the Social Security Board and the Department of Labor, agreed that
they should achieve an integration of the service in the different States.
The Social Security Board for its part carried out the clause of the
Social Security Act very strictly with respect to the payment of bene-
fits. I cannot quote the clause exactly, but in substance it says that
the Social Security Board shall administer the payment of the benefit
payments through the Employment Service or such other agency as
the Board may select.
In every single State the Board has selected employment offices, so,
in reference to our unemployment-insurance program, the idea was to
set up in every 1 of the 51 jurisdictions an employment service. I
think there were some two dozen States that had a State service before
our system was set up.
The rest of the program was that of the National Reemployment
Service, a Federal program.
With the Board's regulations and cooperation of the Department of
Labor, the effect was to set up in every State an employment service,
largely financed with social-security funds, so as to have the. two
closely tied together. They are either in a State department of labor
or associated with the State unemployment association or commission.
There are very few States in which they are not definitely tied together
in a single agency.
EMPLOYMENT UNITS CONSOLIDATED
At the Federal level the United States Employment Service was
moved to the Social Security Board, and our Boarcl felt very strongly
the desirability of bringing these two organizations closely together,
so they put them in the same bureau, the Bureau of Employment
Security. So, in every respect, they are a single integrated organiza-
tion.
Mr. Sparkman. Who is responsible for determining whether the
workers in one State may be referred to employers or an employment
agency in another State ?
Mr. Clague. If we can control it, it comes through our clearance
mechanism. What ordinarily happens is this, and it is happening
every day: An order comes in from an employer in a certain com-
oryQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
munity, perhaps in one of the new Army camps, or a defense industry.
This order is given to our local employment office in that community.
That office tried to fill the order from local men. Our first preference
is to fill such an order locally. If that cannot be done, then we start
out in widening circles. In the course of that clearance that office
contacts a nearby office to endeavor to have that order filled. If they
cannot do that, then they pass it on to the State headquarters. They
try the State-wide clearance to find whether there are any offices in
the State who can fill that order. If not, it then moves to our Federal
regional clearance machinery, and there it is in the Nation-wide
system. We might place the order a thousand miles away ; wherever
we know we would have such men available we would send the requisi-
tions to those offices and get them to find out what they have available,
and those men would move to such localities.
Mr. Sparkman. You said that preference is given to workers in a
local community first?
Mr. Clague. That is right.
Mr. Spakkman. Or in that particular State.
migratory workers needed in defense
Mr. Clague. As I said, we work out in ever-widening circles. We
think the least migration is most desirable, and we carry out that
policy to the maximum extent. We try to prevent excess migration,
but, of course, sometimes we do not find the men in a particular locality
or State.
Take the recent expansion in the shipbuilding industry, for instance.
That involved, for the most part, work on the east coast, and it is
obvious that as soon as we exhausted the supply on the Atlantic sea-
board we had to go inland in order to secure the required number of
men. It was evident that there were some people with shipbuilding
experience which they had acquired years ago who might be in some
of the inland or middle-western communities. So, under our clearance
system, we were able to bring them to the coast. We always get them,
as far as we can, from the nearest available center.
Mr. Sparkman. Has this policy been put into effect or operated in
Colorado with reference to the sugar-beet workers? I ask that ques-
tion because at the hearing we held in Lincoln, Nebr., there was some
testimony with reference to the operation of the employment service
in connection with the sugar-beet workers.
Mr. Clague. I think I would like to answer that question definitely
enough to show where we come in and how this sugar-beet problem
affects us.
In the first place, the migration may be carried on without our con-
trol or without the use of our machinery. Many employers do not
recruit through our service. They may have a recruiting system of
their own. They may have labor scouts or agents who pick up labor,
or they may advertise in newspapers far afield.
Mr.' Parsons. In many instances that is done, more in Michigan
than in Colorado.
Mr. Clague. That is right. They probably do recruit from far
afield. Frequently they want to bring m migratory labor which will
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3571
migrate out when the season is over. Under those circumstances the
Employment Service can do very little about it. We do not attempt
to, nor can we delimit that migration. If it does come through our
office, if the employers have selected our service to work for them, we
do try to regulate this internal migration. But it is true that many
established lines of migration are already in operation. I mean, for
instance, that there is a flow of workers from Mexico into New Mexico,
and then on to California, and then from New Mexico to Colorado,
and then further north.
CX>NTROL OF MIGRATION
Our ideal system is that we would have such a system for the indus-
trial areas. We would have the theory of the ever-widening circle,
and, as far as possible, have home labor, and it would be recruited in
advance. We would have it all spotted in advance, and when we knew
how many workers were needed in the Colorado beet fields, we would
have all lined up in our offices people who would be available in that
particular area, and then when the demand ran beyond the supply we
would bring in what was needed. Then we would have no labor surplus
in that community, provided we controlled any migration that might
occur.
At present we are in the intermediate stage of working out an ideal
system of supplying the demand from local labor as far as possible
and limiting the migration to the workers needed to supply the demand
at a particular place.
Mr. Parsons. In that connection, at some of the other hearings, we
developed the fact that in many instances the employers preferred
out-of-State labor to their own local labcxr.
For instance, in New Jersey we found that several yearg ago the
local labor did the potato picking, but now the youth in many instances
will not do the picking, so they have to import out-of-State labor to do
the work. We found them taking labor from Pennsylvania.
We found the same thing at our hearing in Chicago, in connection
with the Michigan sugar-beet fields. To what extent have the employ-
ment offices sought to eliminate that out-of-State migration?
Mr. Clague. To a certain extent we have tried to eliminate that
migration and tried to build up good will and encourage employment
of local labor, and if we are in the picture, if the employer has used
us, we constantly go to the employer to get his business.
On the other hand, if he does not want to use us, there is nothing we
can do about it. We keep going to him to get him to let us handle the
job, because we think we can arrange a more orderly system than he
can.
If he works with us, we use our regular machinery and our method
in trying to have him use local labor.
Generally speaking, you will find, in the cases you cite, that it may
be a wage and labor standards question. He may have the feeling
that the outside labor he can bring in will work for lower wages and
longer hours, or under less favorable conditions. Under those circum-
stances, we have no control over it. We do not set wage rates and do
260370 — 41 — pt. 9-
3^72 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
not want to. We would usually use persuasion, and would use a
maximum amount of persuasion, but still he might insist on bringing
it in from the outside.
We would then exercise our judgment as to whether we would bring
it in or tell him to bring it in himself, and if we received another order
we would probably refuse that order, and he would probably undertake
to bring them in himself.
MICHIGAN EMPLOYERS HIRE TEXAS LABOR
Mr. Parsons. We found in Chicago, or we were told, that the em-
ployers in Michigan who desired workers in their beet fields preferred
the Texas workers to any other class of people.
Mr. Clague. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. That their local health authorities were cooperating
with their local private employment agency in going to Texas and
making physical examinations before they brought field workers from
Texas to Michigan.
We also found at Oklahoma City that the Texas State employment
offices were rendering very great service in that respect. I believe that
during the last 3 or 4 years they claimed .they had filled over half a
million jobs. Of course, those were part-time or seasonal jobs, in most
instances.
Mr. Clagtje. The Texas service is perhaps one of the best and most
effective placement services in existence.
Mr. Parsons. It so impressed me.
Mr. Clague. They have very good control in Texas of the fann-
labor migration, and they do make hundreds of thousands of place-
ments every year.
Mr. Sparkman. You made some reference to your work with the
National Defense Commission. Are you functioning directly in help-
ing the various defense projects to obtain a proper labor supply ?
JOB placements in defense industries
Mr. Clague. Yes; we are in the closest and most direct relationship
to the National Defense Commission, particularly with Mr. Hillman's
office. The members of our staff sit with his staff three or four times a
week. We have directed our operations to provide placements in de-
fense industries, because the load and volume of reemployment in the
country is higher than it has been in years, if not for all time ; I mean,
the monthly rate at which employment is stepping up. So we are now
approaching the situation where a tight labor market is in prospect,
and therefore with a greater need for the careful handling of that
market.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you make any effort to hold down the flow of
your labor? Two or three times in our hearings reference has been
made to the conditions in Camp Blanding, Fla., and my impression is
that entirely too many people had flowed in there. Do you make any
effort to hold that down ?
Mr. Clague. Yes; we exercise every influence we can to hold that
down. As soon as a new project opens up we go to the employers and
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3573
endeavor to get them to give us the job of handling their labor supply
for them. If they will do that, we then start our machinery of local
placement and emigration, in the proportion, and at the time, and
in the way needed by them.
There are two things that handicap us in that respect. An employer
can deal with us directly, or he may also deal on his own. He may
put an advertisement in a paper for workers. That happened the other
day with respect to a camp in Teimessee. An advertisement appeared
in an Atlanta paper. Obviously, we cannot regulate the flow of per-
sons who respond to such an advertisement. They will go to the
camps, looking for work, and they are dealing with him, in addition
to dealing with us. He puts them on as he needs them, and in that
respect he can control it.
Mr. Sparkman. Suppose you know there is an oversupply, for in-
stance, at Camp Blanding, or any other camp ; is there anything which
would prevent your service from inserting ads in papers advising
people that there is no need of going to such a place for work ?
Mr. Clague. I had not thought of that particular matter. We try
to get those people who have come in and registered at the oflSces we
have set up in those places. We have 1,500 full-time offices and 3,000
part-time offices throughout the country.
If we do not have a full-time office we put a man there to try to
help people to register in their particular areas, and through our
Nation-wide clearance we would pool those people.
Mr. Sparkman. A great deal of the trouble has been due to the fact
that they moved from their homes out there.
Mr. Clague. That is right.
Mr. Sparkman. I was impressed by this condition in California,
In one of the migrant camps in southern California a number of peo-
ple had heard that there was work on the Oregon border, and they
had driven up there in great numbers to find work, which lasted only
a few days, and then they had to come back. Naturally, there was
a great expenditure out of their funds in making that trip.
All around over the country at the hearings we have held we have
heard considerable criticism of the Employment Service — I probably
should not say criticism, but deploring the fact that the Employment
Service was not functioning in the way that most people seemed to
think it might function in gathering information and making it avail-
able to all these people looking for work. It seems to me some plan
could be worked out whereby the Employment Service could make
that information available before a worker goes to a place and finds
that he is a surplus worker.
REPORTING SYSTEM FOR JOB INFORMATION
Mr. Clague. That is right, and if we handle the job we ought to
know the circumstances imder which he is being sent.
We are perfecting such a system. We have a reporting system from
every one of the 1,500 offices.
We have a visiting program in connection with employers in that
■\dcinity by which our regular workers, in the course of their normal
QKy4 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
contacts, find out what labor an employer will need in the next 60
days, for instance. ., ,, »
All of that material is sent to Washington and made available for
ourselves and for the Defense Commission.
We have a picture every month of the situation throughout the
country as to the labor supply and labor shortages, the number of
jobs that are available for transients, and so forth.
Now, we would not send this kind of a person from lower Cali-
fornia to Oregon on a chance, or on the basis of hearsay knowledge
of that job. I 1 1 1
If that sort of a job was handled by us it would have come through
our clearance system, through the local office in Oregon, and that local
office would know what kind of a job was open, and they would be
able to tell a man about that job. The whole thing would thus be
handled in an orderly fashion.
I would not say that what I am describing is our ideal system. I
would not say we would not slip here and there, but there would be an
employment-office manager there who would give careful considera-
tion to those details.
Mr. Sparkman. Of course, I realize, with reference to the person
handled through your office— I am speaking of it from the standpoint
of the information you could give persons who may come to you ; if
you find out that the work is of a limited character, why could you
not post a notice making the information available so that a person
who may just casually come in contact with your office may know that
it would not be desirable to look for that particular work. What I
am thinking of is getting information to as many people as possible
ahead of time. . t, rr. t i
Mr. Clague. What you describe is done in a State like Texas. I do
not know that they use posters, but they do use itinerant agents who
are moving around wherever migration is occurring.
The Service does put out men who are available at street corners
and at little places along the road, and they furnish information. In
all States we are not as well developed as we should be.
Mr. Parsons. Do you ever use newspaper articles, in the form of
news items, for which the newspapers give you free space?
Mr. Clague. I do not recall that, but Mr. Carpenter can tell you
about that.
TESTIMONY OF MARTIN F. CARPENTER, CHIEF OF EMPLOYMENT
SERVICE DIVISION, BUREAU OF EMPLOYMENT SECURITY,
SOCIAL SECURITY BOARD
Mr. Carpenter. In connection with the use of newspapers, we have
had some items inserted.
In one State, the State of Indiana, with which I am particularly
familiar, in 1 month we had over 340 articles which told of the supply
of the labor market in Indiana and surrounding States, particularly
giving information as to the automobile industry.
During the season of the canning industry we did have a release,
particularly to the southern Indiana papers, which was also carried
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3575
in the Kentucky papers, and we dealt with the Kentucky service in
them, and they got information concerning the situation in the central
parts of Indiana.
Mr. Parsons. Did the newspapers use your articles ?
Mr. Carpenter. Very definitely so. We had 345 articles in that one
State alone in 1 month.
Mr. Parsons. I think the newspapers, if the matter were explained
to them, can always use such items as items of news. It helps fill their
columns and renders a service to the public, and that is what a news-
paper, in part, is for.
Mr. Carpenter. Especially if it is well developed by putting it into
such form that they can easily pick it up. That is why I think we
should put greater stress on our national service.
Mr. Parsons. The thought has occurred to me in connection with
all these hearings that if the Employment Service would utilize the
newspapers, especially the local papers, you could get this information
to the general public in very good shape, and in addition to that, of
course, you could probably post bulletins on bulletin boards on all
public places, such as post offices and courthouses.
Mr. Carpenter. There is one precaution that we have to be careful
about in that connection, and that is that the situation changes from
week to week. In other words, the condition in some places in the
canning industry changes almost overnight, dependent on various
factors.
JOB NEWS broadcast BY RADIO
Mr, Parsons. It only lasts a few days in certain areas, in connection
with certain products.
Mr. Carpenter. I should also mention the fact that we also use the
radio extensively. We had in Indiana 14 different radio stations
giving us the time we needed for our spot announcements.
Mr. Parsons. Many times, however, the radio information conveys
a lot of misinformation. I do not say that in any criticism of the
broadcasting stations.
For instance, I have been receiving mail, and I assume a number of
my colleagues have, stating that people have heard over the radio that
such and such a type of men are needed for national defense, for
instance, in connection with clothing in the Quartermaster Corps of
the Army, or in connection with food, also in the Quartermaster Corps.
When an investigation is made it is found that the gate is closed down
here to those men, so that that information is quickly developed into
misinformation.
I mention that incidentally because it has come up in i-egard to some
notices in the last few weeks.
Mr. Carpenter. That is why we are very careful about radio anr
nouncements, unless we can be there ourselves and be responsible. We
rather avoid using the radio, except for standard spot announcements
that universally hold true in standard practice.
Mr. Sparkman. In connectioni with the use of newspapers, most of
the news items I have read, coming from the Employment Service,
have had to do with the number of placements they have made.
3576 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
I realize that makes nice reading, but it seems to me, for the good
actually done — perhaps we might brag a little that we have kept these
people from spending money and going to a place looking for a job
that was not there. It seems to me they might use some of the pub-
licity along that line.
EMPLOYMENT PROMOTION JUSTIFIABLE
Mr. Carpenter. I think the newspapers are getting so much infor-
mation that it is difficult for them to use it efficiently. In the Employ-
ment Service, in our promotional work, we have more justification for
telling what we have done and what we would like to have done than
perhaps other agencies have.
Mr. Curtis. I would like to ask both of you gentlemen a question.
Would you recommend that hereafter, in connection with any appro-
priations for national-defense contracts. Congress should specify that
the United States Employment Service shall take charge of employ-
ment ?
Of course, the very nature of the defense contracts involves great
public interest.
It is apparent that there is a tremendous transient problem which
is created under the present system.
Wliy not turn that employment over to you, other than that for those
who live within a certain specified radius of the actual work ?
TESTIMONY OF EWAN CLAGUE— Kesumed
Mr. Clague. There has been a good deal of discussion in our service
in connection with the National Defense Commission on that question,
as to how far we should go in setting up some control on employers in
the recruitment of labor.
We have not thought of going so far as you indicate in gi\^ng us a
complete monopoly of the control of the labor market.
We have seriously discussed going part way.
For example, one formula that has recently received a good deal of
attention in our staff was in connection with allowing an employer to
recruit locally, as he sees fit. He has many of the processes that he has
used in the past and can use again. Many of the local people formerly
worked for him, and he writes to them directly. We would not attempt
to have those pass through our office, but perhaps make the requirement
that before he recruits outside of this locality he would have to come to
us and give us that job, and if we could fill the jobs he has we would do ;
or if we could not do that we would give him a release and let him try to
get them in any way he could.
Sometimes an employer wants men who are very definitely skilled.
We have none.
Some of the radio announcements are for occupations for which
there are not in any files the names of unemployed men in the United
States. Therefore, we cannot help that employer. In that case an
employer's advertisement in the newspapers is reasonable, because it
brings in employed persons and puts their names in our files, who now
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3577
leave their present work and go to this employer. Perhaps it is due to
higher wages, or perhaps it is work which they prefer. So under those
controlled circumstances, this advertisement will not do any harm, be-
cause it will not stimulate a large number of persons to move.
MIGRANT EMPLOYMENT CONTROL LIMITED
I think if we have an employer required to clear with us before
he tries outside, that is about as far as we might go. I think that
that might give us enough authority to enable us to handle it.
Whether we need legislation for that purpose, or can do that through
the wording of contracts, I would not presume to say.
Mr. Curtis. As to your reference to that particular angle of the
problem that this committee is studying, the important point, so
far as action is concerned, would be that the person would have to
clear through the local employment agency, where he was, before
he would be recognized at a distant point in comiection with a job.
We would not have to pass any law prohibiting him from traveling,
or doing anything within his rights as a free American citizen, but
he would understand that he would have no chance for a defense job
unless he was cleared through an employment agency where he now is.
Mr. Clague. Yes. That is the other side of the picture, and I would
like to make an explanation of what we think of that point, as we
do not want to have a requirement which would mean that we controlled
the movement of every worker, but in the normal operation of our
service to have a pretty effective control from that point of view if the
employer is dealing with us.
May I make that clear? The employer is really putting his busi-
ness in our hands; for example, let us say one of these camps will
put up a sign, an ordinary sigTi, stating that all of his employees
are recruited directly through the employment office, that all people
who come to a plant to get in or to get employment are interviewed
and secured through the employment office.
Now if that is the situation, then what can we say to anybody
who may never have heard of the employment service, but who goes
to the employer's j^lant seeking a job? If he sees a sign or is told
to go back to the local office in this new plant and when the need
arises they will employ him, naturally, he is going to go back to
that plant continually to seek employment. But, if he comes to us,
we can tell him whether there is any immediate need for his service,
and if not, he can go back to his home town and that we will give
him notice, that we have his name on the list and will notify him
when he is needed. In that way he will not need to wait around the
place where he is seeking employment.
But if the employer, whether he deals with us or not, hires those
who just wait, naturally these people seeking employment will not
feel at liberty to go home because they will have the feeling that the
man who is at the gate in the morning or next week will be the man
who will be taken on, and so our attempt to meet this difficulty is
perfectly useless. But if we can somehow have an arrangement with
the employers that when employment opportunities become available
3578
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
we can follow this method of putting the men on, who have been on
the list, it will enable us to convince these men that it will not be
necessary for them to stay around in order to seek work and receive
appointment.
Mr. Curtis. Permit me to state for the record that this suggestion,
while it was rather crudely thought out or made, and was not from
the standpoint of regimenting the people in their movement, but
it would merely move the place of application from the scene of the
job to the home.
Mr. Clague. That is right.
Mr. Curtis. As a service to the applicant.
Mr. Clague. That is right.
Mr. Curtis. And if he understands that after a few days, or a
few weeks, he could come back and get a job at the place he put
the application in for, it would represent a great service to him.
Mr. Clague. That is, right, if it be remembered always that they
can rely on the employer using this service. Otherwise, if he is going
to take the people who are at the gate it would mean we would
simply be misleading those who had relied on this service.
Mr." Curtis. But, since Congi-ess makes provision for the money,
and provides public money, it is an activity in which the public is
interested for that reason.
Mr. Clague. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. And it seems to me perfectly proper for the Federal
Government to include a stipulation providing that the applicant
for work should put in his application at the point closest to him.
MODIFIED CONTROL OF MIGRATION DESIRABLE
Mr. Clague. There is no question about the desirability of some
regulation or modified control, but just what that should be would
have to be thought out very carefully, and we ourselves do not feel
like taking any greater control than is absolutely necessary in order
to meet the demand.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Clague, we could continue all day in this field,
which is certainly a very interesting subject, and you have gone
down to the veiy roots of this problem, but we are going to have
to hear some other witnesses.
There ai^ one or two questions I wanted to ask you for the record
and will ask you to be just as brief as possible in your answers.
Wlien this defense program is over, when these various defense
projects are finished, I suppose it is only reasonable to expect that
we are going to have considerable labor thrown out of employment,
and would you care to explain what plans have been made if any
to meet that situation ?
Mr. Clague. Yes. We expect that, as in the past, when the emer-
gency is over there will be a downward movement just as there_ is an
upward movement now, and for that reason the unemployment insur-
ance system is one of the cushions that we expect at this time will
at least afford a measure of relief that we did not have in 1929,
1930, and 1931 ; that that will be not only a facility that will enable
them to place themselves in employinent, but also perhaps have some
effect on business conditions and in maintaining the purchasing
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3579
power and perhaps preventing, to a degree, a repetition of our
former difficulty. I would say we are quite conscious of the fact
and the matter is being given considerable thought.
PLACEMENT PROGRAM FOR ARMY SELECTEES
Mr. Sparkman. Will you be in position to take care of the se-
lectees returning from service at the end of the year ?
Mr. Clague. Yes; we have already been in touch with the selective
service organization, and Mr. Dykstra's office and I think we are
jointly working out a system which will help them in endeavoring to
place every one of these men who do not go back to their former jobs.
Mr. Sparkman, The task of meeting the employment problem,
connected with the migi-atory problem, is not one that calls for
additional legislation, is it? It is a matter of employees, and pro-
viding you with sufficient funds and setting up your own policy
and rules and regulations.
Mr. Clague. I believe we have enough legislation to do everything
that is needed with the possible exception of the last few questions
that were raised here on that matter. We estimate that in the neigh-
borhood of $3,000,000 additional administrative funds are needed
to render a really adequate and effective Farm Placement Service.
Such a service requires strengthening our local offices in many places,
the establishment of temporary offices and expansion of personnel
during periods of peak labor demands occasioned by seasonal agri-
cultural activities, and increased supervision and control of move-
ments of migratory workers by the Federal Farm Placement Service.
Mr. Sparkman. Thank you very much, Mr. Clague.
Mr.* Clague. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DK. E. R. COFFEE, PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE
Mr. Curtis. Dr. Coffee, we have received your statement and it
will be introduced into the record at this point, after which we shall
want to ask you some questions.
(The statement is as follows:)
STATEMENT BY DR. THOMAS PARRAN, SURGEON GENERAL, UNITED
STATES PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE
Health Needs of Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizeins
Destitute citizens who migrate from State to State have a greater degree of
ill health and, with the exception of beneficiaries of the Federal Government,
receive less medical care than that experienced by other needy citizens. This
statement is based upon the findings of A Study of Medical Problems Associated
With Transients issued by the Public Health Service in Public Health Bulletin
No. 258.
There are several factors leading to this very high rate of disabling illness.
Transients are more likely than residents to sufCer accidents while traveling from
place to place ; they are exposed to the risk of communicable diseases to a much
greater extent than are residents, who do not live under the insanitary conditions
often found in camps, shelters, and other forms of temporary habitation ; and they
are deprived, because of their lack of economic resources, of adequate shelter and
clothes, and proper food.
Transients receive less medical care than do other needy citizens in the main
because of their inability to satisfy existing settlement laws. However, the lack
2^gQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
of adequate funds available to the States and to local communities for medical
care services has a considerable influence in determining the amount of services
rendered. The limitations on medical care serve in turn to increase the incidence
and duration of their illnesses.
This high degree of ill health in transients, particularly m cases of typhoid
fever, tuberculosis, syphilis, gonorrhea, malaria, and the other acute communicable
diseases creates an outstanding health hazard to the citizens of the communities
through which the transients pass and in which they temporarily stop.
In addition to direct measures for the rehabilitation and an order program for
employment and relief of transients, the present cooperative program between the
Federal Government and the State and local health authorities should be
augmented so as to make readily available to all needy individuals, including
transients, adequate public-health facilities, including medical care and
hospitalization.
The financial participation by the Federal Government in this joint program
should be made through funds made available under title VI of the Federal Social
Security Act. This title of the act provides for grants in aid to States for the
puiTpose of assisting States, counties, health districts, and other political sub-
divisions of the States in establishing and maintaining adequate public-health
services. The presence of a considerable number of interstate transients in any
State should be recognized as a special health problem in the allotment of these
funds to the States.
Additional Federal funds would be necessary to accomplish this purpose.
TESTIMONY OF DR. E. R. COFFEE— Resumed
Mr. Curtis. Dr. Coffee, I have read your statement, and note the
reference to Public Health Bulletin No. 258. Is that a rather lengthy
bulletin ?
Dr. Coffee. Yes, it is. I have it here before me. It has some
130 pages.
Mr. Curtis. What is the date of the publication?
Dr. Coffee. It has just been issued. We received it from the
Printing Office about a week ago. It is the 1940 issue.
Mr. Curtis. In that event it v^ould probably be a waste to incor-
porate that in the hearings, but is there any further identification
which needs to be made at this point so those following the hearings
can thave access to it?
Dr. Coffee. Nothing further. The title is "A Study of Medical
Problems Associated With Transients." It is Public Health Bulletin
No. 258.
Mr. Curtis. It is available in sufficient quantities?
Dr. Coffee, Yes.
MUCH illness among TRANSIENTS
Mr. Curtis. Doctor, I have read your statement and I might say
that the facts are quite well known to this committee in our field
hearings. I believe it is quite well recognized that there is more
illness among transients, poor people, out on the road, in many
cases who have no home, and who do not have sufficient food, and
because they are poor and unsettled they do not get the free medical
attention which they should have. At this time we are going to
take that situation for granted, and I am going to ask you to
take a few minutes to discuss the remedy for the situation — for
better medical care for transients, homeless people, and unsettled
people; if you will just direct your discussion to title VI of the
Social Security Act.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3581
Dr. Coffee. We feel that the real problem of transients is not
unlike that of poor residents of a community. Their situation, how-
ever, is aggravated by the nature of the conditions under which they
live, the fact that they have to travel from place to place, making
them more susceptible to accident, to poor housing conditions, and
of course making them susceptible to the ordinary communicable
diseases and the filth-borne diseases. The lack of economic resources
renders them susceptible to a condition which is brought about from
lack of nutrition.
Their big problem of course, so far as their inability to secure
such medical care as they need is not altogether because of the
settlement laws. Their problem, of course, is exaggerated as com-
pared with people with a more settled economic status which of
course throws a great medical burden on the local agencies which
accept the responsibility.
It is our feeling that you cannot separate the medical care of
transients from the medical care of the residents of a commimity,
and we believe that any program set up should be based upon
utilizing local health facilities in the community and accepting the
responsibility and having the local community accept the responsibility
for the medical care of the transients.
COMMUNITIES LACK MEDICAL. FACILITIES
I think it is, of course, recognized, from studies that have been
made heretofore, that the indigent residents are receiving medical
care in their communities. To be sure, some communities are lacking
in resources; many do not have sufficient facilities to meet their own
problem.
We have had the feeling that we can develop throughout the Na-
tion additional full-time local health service, and when I say full-
time local health service I mean health service that puts its mem-
bers on a full-time basis in order to furnish qualified people, that
they in turn will be able to eliminate many of the unnecessary dis-
eases and illnesses, and within their resources can be enabled to meet
the need.
Mr. Parsons. We learned of one case in Florida of a town with a
population of 5,000 normally, that for half the year its population
was increased to 10,000 and that for 3 months in the year that is
increased to 15,000, so naturally that would present a great health
problem, quite a medical problem for that community.
Dr. Coffee. It would. Our study has shown, as indicated in
Bulletin 258, where it is pointed out that the big problem in medical
care is in intrastate transients; iii other words, transients who stay
within the State.
JMOBILE MEDICAL SERVICE FOR MIGRANTS
It seems possible that a program set up on a State level, providing
perhaps mobile medical service for local hospital facilities, to follow
the migration of these individuals, could help supplement existing
3582
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
local facilities that under ordinary times meets the problems of the
local individual communities. It is recognized, of course, that it
would not be possible to set up permanent hospital facilities and
permanent clinical facilities to take on the road to care for 15 or 20
thousand people for 6 weeks to 3 months use. However, there would
seem to be a need in every community of permanent facilities to
meet its local requirements, to be supplemented to meet the addi-
tional influx as individual needs are shown.
That would require organization within the States, without ques-
tion, and, to meet the interstate problem, cooperation between the
States and the Federal Government.
Mr. Curtis. In reference to the lack of medical care for unsettled
people, I assume that that is in the category of less chronic situa-
tions such as now exist and is not spread over long periods of time.
But are there any States or communities that refuse to give emer-
gency treatment to unsettled people?
Dr. Coffee. The greatest service, medical service, rendered to
transients by the community has been to the emergency cases. In
other words, to accident, obstetric, and acute illnesses.
We found in our studies, and I think it is an interesting fact, that
there was a lower or somewhat decreased number of these so-called
degenerative diseases among transients than among the ordinary
population of comparable economic status.
The biggest percentage of cases treated were the acute emergency
cases, perhaps because of the settlement laws and due to the lack
of sufficient funds. In other words, practically all communities
would accept these emergency cases and give them treatment where
it has been absolutely essential.
Mr. Curtis. Do you feel the emergency cases are lacking in medi-
cal attention because of the settlement law requirements?
Dr. Coffee. Our studies — we found on an average about 5 agencies
in the ordinary city that were rendering medical care, and very
little attention was paid to settlement laws in rendering service to
the so-called emergency cases.
Now, of course, the cases that were in the emergency class were
taken care of regardless of settlement laws, purely because of the
human instinct of kindness to take care of those who were in an
emergency situation.
Mr. Curtis. Do you know what percentage of the young men regis-
tered for selective service have been rejected because of medical
reasons ?
Dr. Coffee. No ; I do not. Those figures have not been made avail-
able as yet. Of course, they are being compiled and we hope to
liave them, but they have not been made available so far as I know.
The Surgeon General of the Army may be able to provide them.
I might say further, from the standpoint of title VI of the Social
Security Act, funds made available by the Public Health Service to
the States have been used in the main, since the advent of the Social
Security Act and the first appropriation in the spring of 1936, by the
States to build up their medical service in the rural areas because
the rural areas have been neglected to a greater extent than the large
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3583
urban centers. This was not done because of the fact there were
greater health needs perhaps in the rural areas, but only because of
the fact that in setting up their organization they had not been able
to provide themselves with the health facilities in many of the rural
areas that had already been provided in urban centers. And the
States are developing a State- wide program, utilizing a large per-
centage of the money in organizing the health service at the present
time, in something over 1,500 counties in the United States, of the
three-thousand-odd counties, which have no full-time health service,
and to have full-time health service now such as a public-health
nurse, a sanitary inspector, public clinical service.
FEDERAL GRANTS FOR MIGRANT HEALTH AID
Mr. Curtis. Now, what you propose is that a Federal grant to the
State be made, conditioned on the extension of medical service to the
unsettled, the same as is now given to the destitute residents.
Dr. Coffee. That is right. In other words, if it could be possible
that, as an additional allotment, the stipulation should be made that
the fund was made available to provide for rendering medical public-
health service and medical treatment to transients in the community.
Mr. Curtis. Are you recommending any other legislation to supple-
ment or to provide the aid needed in dealing with the general subject
of health treatment?
Dr. Coffee. No ; we have the feeling that the whole problem is due
to the lack of necessary funds, on the local basis, to meet the situation,
and that, of course, somewhat aggravates the local situation because
in the spending of tax money there is a feeling that they should care
for their own, who are residents of the community.
We feel that if there is a cooperative program set up whereby the
same type of service can be rendered to the resident as to the non-
resident that a very satisfactory solution might be had of the prob-
lem, at least a start would be made to the solution of the problem.
Mr. Curtis. Is the quest for health a contributing factor in the
cause of migration?
Dr. Coffee. It is a factor but not a large factor. A relatively small
percentage of the people traveling interstate are in search of a more
salubrious climate or healthful location.
Mr. Curtis. Not among destitute people.
Dr. Coffee. The biggest transiency of those seeking health are
intrastate, of those going from rural areas to cities where organi-
zation and medical assistance and hospital facilities are available.
tubercular migrants seek health on road
Tuberculosis, of course, is the exception. The greatest percentage
of interstate transiency in quest of health is on account of tuber-
culosis, and the fact that is true has been brought about by some
mismformation and a belief that they can find a cure in high, dry
climates. That, however, has been shown to be a fallacy, that just
as adequate a treatment for tuberculosis can be given in one climate
oro^ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
as another, so I think we are fast doing away with the misbelief,
and we feel there has been a definite decrease in migration because
of health. .„ , , , »
Mr. Curtis. Dr. Coffee, your statement will be made a part ot
the hearings. Is there anything further you would like to stress
in reference to it? „ , . ^j. .
Dr CoFiEE. I do not think of anything. Of course, we must
recognize that the bulletin that has been mentioned, the bulletin on
the studies, contains some very pertinent information with refer-
ence to the medical problems involved in transients, and I think
this bulletin should be used in the study.
Mr. Parsons. How much space would it require to take that pub-
lication, to boil down the recommendations, to bring it within the
purview of this investigation? How much space would be required
to take excerpts and insert them in the hearings?
Dr. Coffee. Well, I would say that as the bulletin is printed there
is a summary of conclusions with recommendations, and it would
seem to me, perhaps, the summary is very helpful from the stand-
point of giving data that is necessary, and from the standpoint of
statistics, and perhaps we could insert the summary and the recom-
mendations from the bulletin.
Mr. Parsons. How many pages are used in the summary and
recommendations ?
Dr. Coffee. About 14 single pages ; 14 or 15.
Mr. Parsons. I think that is a very important thing to put into
these hearings, and, without objection from the committee, we will
be glad to have a summary of the recommendations taken from
the publication. There should perhaps be a little summary show-
ing how the study was made, the reasons for it, and that ought
to be inserted in the record at this point.
Mr. Curtis. I am not objecting, Mr, Parsons, but do you not think
Dr. Coffee should have a free hand to delete anything that he feels
has already been covered in his statement, or, that in looking over,
he may find is not essential.
Mr. Parsons. Would it be too much trouble, Doctor, for you to
prepare a summary of the recommendations, along with the sum-
mary, and submit that to be inserted in the record?
Dr. Coffee. I will be glad to do that.
Mr. Parsons. We will be pleased to have that for the record.
(The statement referred to follows:)
A Sttjdy of Medical Problems Associated With Transients
There is in the United States a large but fluctuating number of needy indi-
viduals, variously estimated at 200,000 to 1,000,000, who are discriminated against
in programs of material aid and public medical care by the application of resi-
dence and technically related requirements. Such persons are called transients
in this study.
The study is limited to the continental United States and is concerned with
the health of transients as it is affected by their mode of life and social oppor-
tunities. It attempts to determine: (1) The origin of transiency from migration
and the importance of lack of health as a cause; (2) the statutory limitations
on public assistance to transients; (3) the administrative practices of agencies
giving assistance to transients; (4) the medical needs of transients; (5) the
INTERSTATE MICxRATION 3585
influence of transients on community health ; and (6) the most equitable and
practical solution of the medical problems of transients and transiency.
Original and documentary data related to this subject are presented. Sources
of published material used are given in the references. Original data collected
and used include: (a) About 11,000 schedules recorded by trained workers in 20
cities of 15 States, containing the migration history, personal characteristics, and
disabling illness and medical care history during a 3-month survey period of some
16,000 transients who were applying for public assistance; (ft) 432 schedules on
the admission policies of public assistance agencies in the same cities ; (c) records
of application of 1,488 transients for in-patient care at a large charity hospital ;
{d) serological reactions of 1,170 inmates of a large municipal shelter for home-
less men; (e) results of chest X-ray examinations of transients in 19 cotton
camps in a southwestern State; and (f) replies from 42 local governmental and
nonprofit association general hospitals in California to a questionnaire concerning
the number of transients hospitalized during 1938.
MIGRATION AND TRANSIENCY
Migration has been an outstanding characteristic of the people of the United
States. Students of migration in this country are convinced that, since the
forces causing it are still operative, it will continue and may increase in the
future. It produces not only demographic effects, in that the age, sex, and
race compositions of populations are materially influenced, but also a number
of effects on social organization in general and community, family, and individual
adjustment in particular. It is in the failure of individuals to orient themselves
properly to new environments, especially in their failure to maintain or secure
economic self-sufficiency, that transiency arises.
It seems indisputable that, if migration is to continue, and some proportion of
the migrants may be expected to fail in their attempts at rehabilitation, social
planning should be directed toward guiding the streams of migration and relieving
the destitution of the unsuccessful. These functions can be carried out success-
fully only by cooperative Federal and State action.
Interstate migxatiou is motivated largely by economic need, and only a small
part of the whole is caused by ill health. Practically all the pathological condi-
tions for which transients moA-e across State lines are pulmonary, usually tubercu-
losis, and most migration of this type is directed toward the Southwest. It is
estimated that there are now in the southwestern States at least 10,000 tubercu-
lous transients who are unalile to pay for needed sanatorium care. The highest
proportion of individuals who became migrants because of health was found
among transients interviewed in Hot Springs, Ark., followed in order of im-
portance by Tucson, Ariz. ; El Paso and San Antonio, Tex. ; Denver, Colo. ; and
Los Angeles, Calif. By place of origin the highest proportion of health migrants
was found among transients from the eastern States. One part of migration,
usually not recognized, is that which was started because of economic conditions
but turned toward the Southwest because of ill health.
Another large part of the transient problem that has been ignored in most
studies and writings is intrastate migration. It is principally rural-urban and
a considerable proportion of the individuals move in search of medical care— a
factor found to be almost negligible in interstate migration.
No exact census of transients in the United States has ever been possible
because of the very nature of migration and transiencv. An estimate, based
on data collected during the first quarter of 1938, indicates that some 400 000
transients applied for public assistance in 1 year throughout the country
Data on transient cases in 1934 and 1938 indicate that families make up
about one-flfth of the total cases, although the percentage probably is much
higher in some cities. The transient family seems definitely to he "increasing
in size, particularly among transients from the States furnishing the greatest
part of the transient population. Tliere is also some evidence that the largest
families are the least mobile.
In general, transients are younger than residents on the relief rolls. As
between interstate and intrastate transient family heads, the interstate group
contains the smaller proportion of persons 55 years of age and over and of
youths under 25 years of age, while among the unattached the interstate group
shows the smaller proportion of aged but a greater proportion of youths.
3586 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
If classified according to the last State in which they had lived for as long
as 1 year, practically half of the family transients interviewed came from 4
States— Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, and Texas — and half the unattached
interstate transients came from 11 States.
About 70 percent of the families and 77 percent of the unattached had been
migrants for less than 1 year, while among those who had been migrants
for as long as 2 years practically all of the family cases and more than nine-
tenths of the unattached had lived in the State of interview 1 year or more.
These data indicate that the transient population is not, as is often stated,
made up largely of a group of individuals who have chosen a life of migration.
While some few do follow a pattern of seasonal movement or just wander
from place to place as opportunity for economic improvement presents itself,
it is believed that approximately three-fourths of the interstate transient group
is made up of families and individuals who are in the process of relocation.
STATUTORY LIMITATIONS ON PUBLIC ASSISTANCE TO TKANSIENTS
The majority of States have among their statutes so-called "poor laws,"
"pauper laws," "public assistance laws," or "public welfare laws." In these
laws the State imposes upon itself or its political subdivisions the obligation
to relieve the destitute. Provision for public medical care usually is embodied
in these laws — hence relief for the sick-poor is set within the framework for
relieving destitution.
In 39 States the "poor laws" include other sections called "settlement laws"
in which, with few exceptions, it is provided that the benefits of relief to the
destitute are to apply only to persons defined by law as residents of the State
or certain of its political subdivisions or both. There may or may not be
further provision for the medical relief of nonresidents.
The history of settlement law may be traced to the feudal era in England.
The English influence in this country is partly due to the legal concepts in-
herited and brought from England by the first colonists who, if not always
racially identical, were culturally similar to the English. Settlement laws of
the original colonies have served as models for subsequent State settlement
laws. Another reason for the adoption in the United States of settlement laws
closely resembling those of England during the seventeenth century is found in
the similarity of social and economic conditions existing in the original colonies
and England at that time. In both countries the chief occupations were agri-
cultural and, with a relatively limited labor supply, the laboring classes were
surrounded by a series of restrictions designed to attach them, as far as
possible, to the locale where they happened to be settled. However, the most
important reason for the existence of settlement laws, and the most important
consideration in discrimination against the transient today, is the attempt of
the individual communities to protect themselves from persons likely to become
dependent.
"Commorancy" or residence, as such, in a given locality and over a stipulated
period of time is a common prerequisite to settlement in the laws of all
States, and the list of conditions under which residence must be accomplished
in the various States is a long one. On the subject of where a person must
have lived to acquire residence, the 39 States having settlement laws have
13 different provisions. This confusion alone has contributed a great deal to
the difficulties involved in dealing with transients.
Provisions in regard to the length of residence required for settlement are
more complex. Time x-equired varies not only between States, from 6 months
to 5 years, but often between political subdivisions within States, according
to the person's financial status, his property ownership, or his state of health
or that of members of his family.
Analysis of the provisions of the settlement laws over a period of 25 years
shows that during that time one-third of the States have increased the period
of residence required for settlement. Settlement laws in all but seven of the
States having such laws make restrictive provisions that bear on either the
continuity of residence or its chronological precedence to application for public
assistance. Sixteen States void the entire period of residence if it is inter-
rupted by a period during which the person is not self-supporting and, in others
provisions change the period required if the individual receives specific kinds
of support.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3587
Citizenship is a prerequisite to settlement in one State and in one county
of another State. In three States persons may be prevented from acquiring
settlement in a town or county by a formal warning from the authorities to
depart. Several States provide that employees and patients of State insti-
tutions either may not gain settlement or may do so only after a relatively
prolonged period.
Statutory enactments on loss of settlement may be as effective in barring
transients from public assistance as those relating to acquiring settlement.
The situation regarding loss of settlement is less complex only because fewer
States have statutes on the subject. Three States provide for loss of settle-
ment solely on acquisition of any new settlement, six on acquisition of a
new settlement in another State, and nine on acquisition of a new settlement
within the same State. Eighteen States provide for loss of settlement by
absence for a specitied period which varies from 1 month to 5 years. In six
States, the stipulated period for loss of settlement is less than is that for
acquisition, and one State voids settlement after assistance as a pauper for
5 years.
Thirty-nine States make provision in their poor laws for the relief of
nonresidents. In 32 States it is mandatory, in 2 it is mandatory for certain
cases only, and in the other 5 the statutes are only permissive. In 24 States
responsibility for the relief rests on local political units, in 3 States the State
alone is responsible, while in 10 States there is joint responsibility.
Relief to nonresidents in some States is available only to those who are
sick ; in other States it depends on funds being available. Several States limit
such relief to those "who have been committed to jail," "have been injured on the
State highways," or "who are indigent by reason of physical or mental infirm-
ity." Others specify "State paupers" (undefined) or "those who are not
residents of any individual township." Probably the most important restric-
tion on assistance to nonresidents is the stipulation, made by 19 States, that
such aid be temporary or emergency only.
The settlement laws are the embodiment of a discrimination which most
States and communities exercise against persons who have become or who
are likely to become dependent on the community for assistance. Formulated
originally both to protect the poor funds of the community and to I'estrict the
movement of needed workers, they have been handed down to a society in
which the free movement of labor is essential and economic distress in local
governments is almost universal. The result of such a combination is easily
predicted.
Many migrants have lost all rights to assistance in any State. Others are
entitled to receive only "emergency" assistance, and the majority have no
governmental organization to which they can turn for aid. It should be em-
phasized, however, that the settlement law per se is not the cause but only
the statutory method through which transients are made the object of dis-
crimination. Discrimination is equally definite where no such statute exists.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRACTICES OF AGENCIES GIVING PUBLIC ASSISTANCE TO
TRANSIENTS
Three-fourths of the 482 agencies that assist transients in the 20 study cities
are social, 1. e., their primary function is to dispense general relief; and
one-fourth are primarily medical. Medical agencies, however, handle only 13.1
percent of all applications from transient families and 7 percent of those
from unattached transients. A count of transient applications in 1938 indi-
cated that, in addition to the applications for aid at medical agencies, 2.7
percent of those at social agencies were also for medical care. In the 20
cities there are the same number of hospitals that give assistance to transients
as there are clinics (or out-patient departments). General hospitals repre-
sent almost 63 percent of such hospitals, and maternity hospitals about 20
percent.
Of the 324 social agencies, 57 percent are mass-care agencies and they
handle two-thirds of all applicants to social agencies. The remaining 43
percent are case-work agencies and handle one-third of the cases.
Thirty-two percent of agencies providing medical care to transients are
under governmental control, while among those not giving medical attention
260370 — Jl— pt. 9 9
3588
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
to transients the percentage is only 13.3. However, the governmental-agency
applications included three-fourths of all persons who applied to medical
agencies and one-third of all who applied to social agencies. Of all agencies
giving medical care to transients, more than one-third restricted the care to
emergency service only; another third gave ordinary care to selected cases
only and less than a third had no restrictions upon the type of medical
attention furnished. Of the 146 general hospitals in the 20 cities, only 30
gave any medical care to transients and only 7 gave it without restrictions.
Data on residence requirements of out-patient departments in general hos-
pitals of the United States were available in studies from the National
Health Inventory. These show that while only slightly more than half of all
out-patient departments, both free and other, malte residence requirements for
eligibility for care, 91 percent of local governmental and 73 percent of State
out-patient departments do so.
Regardless of location with reference to settlement law and of the organization
in control, discrimination against the transient in public assistance agencies is
the rule, and public assistance agencies that treat transients on the same basis as
residents are the exception.
The findings (1) that governmental agencies handle the greater part of applica-
tions to medical agencies, (2) that a higher proportion of governmental than of
nongovernmental general hospitals give free care to transients, and (3) that a
greater proportion of them adhere to the settlement restrictions were to be
expected. That almost half of all governmental as well as nongovernmental
agencies in States with settlement laws have stricter settlement requirements
than the law provides is not so well known. This seems to indicate that it is not
entirelv the settlement law that deprives the transient of relief.
The analysis of agencies in the 20 cities by restrictions upon type of care given
is probably a representative picture of the provision of medical care to transients.
When it is seen that almost two-thirds of the agencies giving medical care to
transients restrict the care to either emergency or selected cases, the difficulties
facing the transient who requires medical care are at once apparent.
ILLNESS EXPERIENCE AND MEDICAL, CARE OF TRANSIENTS COMPARED WITH THOSE OF
It was found that 13.6 percent of the 9,040 unattached transients who were
interviewed and 21.7 percent of the 7,105 transients in interviewed family cases
had had disabling illness during the 3-month survey period. Interstate family
transients had a 74 percent higher disabling illness rate than did residents, and
the rate for interstate unattached transients was 45 percent higher than that for
residents of comparable age and sex. Transients not only had a higher disabling
illness rate than all residents considered in the Health and Depression Study, but
higher even than the "poor" residents.
On the basis of mobility, transients who have been migrants less than 2 years
have less disabling illness than those who have been migrants a longer period
of time, and, as the period of stay in the State of interview increases, the disabling
illness rate becomes higher. In any comparison of disabling illness rates between
interstate and intrastate transients, if only the individual making the application
for public assistance is considered, the intrastate group exhibits a higher rate of
disabling illness, and makes a considerably higher proportion of applications for
assistance to medical agencies.
Analysis of disabling illness by diagnosis groups shows that interstate tran-
sients have, like residents, the highest disabling illness rate from the respiratory
diseases. In the unattached, this diagnosis group is followed, in order of im-
portance as a cause of disability, by accidents, pueiiieral conditions, communicable
diseases, and digestive diseases. Degenerative and nervous conditions and rheu-
matism fall at the end of the six most important groups. Among family inter-
state transients, communicable diseases, puerperal conditions, digestive diseases,
degenerative diseases, and accidents follow respiratory conditions in order of
importance.
The disabling illness rates of all interstate transients exceed those of residents
for all conditions except degenerative, nervous, and rheumatic diseases. The
greatest excess of disabling illness among interstate transients, as compared with
residents, appears in the unattached who seem to have more than seven times
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3589
as much disability from communicable diseases and almost five times as much
from accidents, as do residents of comparable age.
From these data it is seen that transients, either interstate or intrastate, have
considerably more disabling illness than persons who have resided in communities
long enough and under such conditions as to have the status of residents.
Intrastate transients have even higher disabling illness rates than do the
interstate. It is believed that this difference is due to the greater proportionate
migration of intrastate transients to cities in search of public medical care which
they do not believe is available to them at home in smaller communities. That a
larger proportion of intrastate than of interstate transients' applications were to
medical agencies is a corollary of their search for medical care.
Data on disabling illness rates by degrees of mobility definitely suggest a health
selection in migration. The pattern appears to be as follows : Among all inter-
state transients the most recent migrants have the least number of disabling
illnesses, and as migration continues the incidence of disabling illness increases.
However, as illness strikes more frequently, the result seems to be that migration
is delayed and often the migrant settles down in some community and eventually
becomes a resident. This tendency may be responsible for the high rate of
illness and disease found in cities among the local homeless, many of whom may
well be former interstate transients disabled for migration by chronic or recurring
diseases.
There are several reasons why transients exhibit a very high rate of disabling
illness. First, they are more likely than residents to suffer accidents while travel-
ing from place to place. They are exposed to the risk of communicable disease
to a much greater extent than are residents, who do not often live in the insani-
tary conditions found in camps, shelters, and other forms of temporary habitation.
A second and more important reason for a high disabling illness rate among
transients is that they are "marginal" individuals. A majority of them start
migration because they are unable to support themselves at home, and it has been
shown repeatedly that the poorest fraction of the population has the highest
illness rates. Third, some of those found as transients have migrated because
they are ill, and finally the very fact that they receive less medical care than
needy resident groups may well tend to increase their illness rates. One-ninth
of all disabling illness experienced by members of transient families (but exclud-
ing families headed by persons eligible for Federal hospitalization) was hospital-
ized, less than a third received only the attention of a physician, and almost
three-fifths did not come to medical attention. For similar illnesses residents
received 3.2 percent more hospitalization, 21.4 percent more attention by physi-
cians, and some type of care in 24.5 percent more of the illnesses reported.
A considerable proportion of the unattached interstate transients interviewed
are eligible for Federal hospitalization. One-ninth of all unattached transients
were beneficiaries of this service as United States veterans, and 3.4 percent were
eligible for medical care as merchant seamen. These two groups received some
kind of medical attention for 83 percent and 96.4 percent of their disabilities,
respectively, while only 66.2 percent of those experienced by other unattached
transients were given medical attention. Veterans were hospitalized for 50.2
percent of their reported disabilities, seamen for 40.3 percent, and other unat-
tached transients for only 28.3 percent.
Data on 1,444 nonresident applications for in-patient care at Louisville City
Hospital show that those by Kentuckians constitute more than half of the total.
About three-fourths were made by white persons and slightly more than half
by females, the excess of females over males occurring principally in the age group
15-24. The greatest number of intrastate applicants (Kentuckians) in relation
to the population of the place of residence came from counties touching Jeffer-
son, the county in which Louisville lies.
Disposition of the transient applicants at this hospital was as follows: (a)
43.7 percent were admitted; (b) 11.6 percent were referred to other hospitals;
(c) 3.6 percent were referred to practicing physicians; and (d) for 41.1 percent
no provision for medical care was made. The proportion by place of residence
of applicants accepted for bed care at Louisville City Hospital was between 40
and 50 percent for all nonresidents except those from Jefferson County, only
8.6 percent of whom were admitted.
Discrimination against transients was discussed from the viewpoints of cause,
history, trends, and modus operandi. Data on medical care received by transients
QRQQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
show the results of this discrimination. No class or type of transient, except
special beneficiaries of the Federal health services, receives as much medical
care as even the poor in resident groups. Although most students of the subject
agree that care received by many residents is not adequate for the maintenance
of health, transients receive even less care than do residents.
THE INFLUENCE OF TRANSIENTS) ON COMMUNITY HEALTH
Transients may be found living under all kinds of sanitary conditions. While
some transients resemble, in their hygienic surroundings, residents of the same
economic status, a greater proportion are forced to exist under almost every
imaginable variety of insanitary condition. Wretched housing among tran-
sients is found in every State, but more frequently in the Southwest since tran-
sients are found there in the greatest numbers. The majority of transients
live in temporary shelters that range downward in degrees of sanitation from
the Farm Security Administration camps and the better grower camps, through
the worst of grower camps and the poorer tourist camps to the most insanitary
of all, the squatter camps or jungles. In the latter are often found all conceiv-
able violations of hygienic standards in excreta disposal. The water supply even
for drinking purposes is often the nearest stream, pool, or irrigation ditch.
Serious overcrowding in the shelters is almost universal even in the grower
As a result of these conditions a high incidence of typhoid fever and, par-
ticularly, of dysentery, occurs among transients, especially among the migratory
agricultural workers. On the basis of disabling illnesses reported by transients
in interviewed cases, the incidence of typhoid fever was approximately 34 times
as high as among all residents of the United States in 1938.
Various organizations have been vitally concerned with this aspect of tran-
sient life, and there is some evidence that housing conditions in general are
improving. Both the Farm Security Administration camps and those grower
camps built and maintained under the jurisdiction of competent health authori-
ties have done a great deal to improve the living conditions of transients. It
remains to be seen whether good camps can be provided in sufficient number to
raise the standard of sanitation for any significant number of transients.
No thorough studies of the diets of transients have been made, but a partial
one showed that on the basis of milk consumption the diets of transient chil-
dren are very inadequate. Since the majority of migratory agricultural tran-
sients in the Southwest come from the West South Central States, their diet is
very likely to be that of the poorer residents of those States, made even more
inadequate by the financial distress into which the transients have fallen. It is
believed by all competent observers that their diets fall far short of minimum
requirements in total calories, vitamin and mineral content, and digestibility.
As evidence of the results of inadequate diets among these transients it was
found in one study of the children of migratory agricultural workers that 27.9
percent of them had nutritional and dietary defects, not including dental caries
and decalcification. During the transient-case study 6 transients were inter-
viewed who had been disabled by pellagra, a deficiency disease, during the
3-month survey period. The cumulative effect on future health in the western
States of allowing children to subsist on very inadequate diets is one that should
be given serious consideration by health authorities.
The incidence of active pulmonary tuberculosis among all transients who apply
for public assistance is probably around 2 i>ercent for the country as a whole
and somewhat higher in the Southwest. In some cities to which there is con-
siderable migration because of pulmonary conditions and in which migratory
labor is not in very great demand, the incidence of active pulmonary tuberculosis
among transients may be as high as 9 percent.
Almost without exception the nonresident or transient tuberculosis person iy
excluded from the sanatorium or must spend a long time in residence before
hospitalization. This can mean only that he is forced to continue spreading the
infection to nontuberculousi individuals.
According to a survey of unattached homeless men in one city, the incidence
of serologically detectable syphilis appears to be about 8 percent for white
interstate unattached transients and about 29 percent for colored. This is ap-
proximately 2 percent less than the rate&t determined for the corresponding local
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3591
homeless groups in the same city. As in tuberculosis, the transient with syphilis
is usually "ineligible" for public treatment, despite the fact that one of the most
important public-health considerations in the treatment of syphilis is the protec-
tion of the rest of the population by making each case noninfectious.
Smallpox is not only occurring at a high rate among transients but is being
spread by them from one community to another and from State to State;
meningococcus meningitis epidemics also seem to be encouraged by the housing
of transients in congregate shelters.
A very great danger to the health of communities exists in the possibility of
the introduction by transients of relatively unknown diseases. For example, all
the known requirements for the introduction of malaria into a number of States
exist in the transient situation today. This disease and trachoma are probably
now being carried to California and other parts of the West by transients from
the South Central States.
A very important effect of interstate transients on communities is the cost of
public medical care given to them. For hospitalization alone it has been esti-
mated that transients cost Los Angeles County (Calif.) $170,000 annually.
From the records of admissions of interstate transients to 16 county hospitals
in California, an annual cost per county of $26,000 was estimated. The Louis-
ville (Ky.) City Hospital Department of Admissions estimates that the hos-
pitalization of nonresidents in this institution cost Louisville taxpayers about
$14,000 in 1937 and around $9,000 in 1938. It isi of interest to note that more
than half the applicants and transients admitted to this institution were intra-
state transients.
The effect of transients on community health is to increase the hazard of ill
health to residents and to raise the incidence of most of the communicable
diseases. The incidence of tuberculosis, syphilis, gonorrhea, and malaria almost
certainly is increased in a community by adding transients to the resident popu-
lation. Thisi is partly due to the higher rate of these conditions among tran-
sients; but it results chiefly from the fact that transients are not given equal
consideration in community programs of sanitation, preventive medicine, and
isolation of infectious cases of communicable disease.
The discrimination noted against diseased transients in hospitals, sanatoria,
and clinics undoubtedly has an economic basis. The cost of hospitalization for
the average long period of institutionalization in pulmonary tuberculosis is so
high that no community feels willing to provide facilities or pay for hospitaliz-
ing nonresidents! with this condition. Hence there result the settlement laws
with their special restrictions against persons with pulmonary tuberculosis.
The States have felt that if nonresidents were admitted to State tuberculosis
sanatoria it would serve only to attract more indigent tuberculous persons from
areas where free hospitalization for this disease is not available to all persons
suffering from it.
The data presented on the cost of public hospitalization now being supplied
to transients! in general hospitals seem to show that an enormous load from
this cause is being carried by some communities, in spite of the fact that tran-
sients generally receive considerably less medical care and hospitalization than
do residents.
RECOMMENDATIONS
The conclu&!ions expressed in this report have resulted from the analysis of
original data collected during the course of the study, from the various studies,
books, and articles published on transiency and related subjects, and from the
advice and counsel of various authorities.
Specific recommendations as to the most equitable and practical solution of the
medical problems associated with transients are: (1) In any plans formulated,
the basic consideration that migration and transiency are permanent character-
istics of American society and economy must be given a prominent place. (2)
There should be a national policy on migration, and an organization to direct and
influence migration should be created on the Federal level. (3) There should be
instituted a program of hospital and sanatorium construction and maintenance
and of public medical care for the medically needy, through the combined efforts
of the Federal Government and the States, that would make available in every
State adequate medical care and a public-institution bed for each needy individual
3592 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
who required it. These services should be similarly available to all needy persons
regardless of residence status. In the case of transients vpith pulmonary tubercu-
losis and other chronic debilitating conditions, provision should be made for
returning these cases to the last State in which they had legal settlement if it is
certain that proper medical care, including hospitalization, is immediately avail-
able there and if it is not more important socially that they be hospitalized as
transients. (4) The presence of a considerable number of interstate transients
in any State should be recognized as a special health problem in the allotment of
Federal funds to States for the maintenance and improvement of local public-
health facilities. (5) The Federal Government should neither formulate nor con-
tribute funds to a health program organized exclusively for transients. Determina-
tion of the transient's settlement status, the investigation of his financial need,
and his certification for any needed medical care should be handled by such public
social organizations and personnel in each community as carry out similar func-
tions for residents. Determination of medical need and administration of all public
medical care given to the transient should be allocated to that public medical
agency in each community charged with similar responsibilities for needy residents.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY S. ALVES, OP THE UNITED STATES OFFICE
OF EDUCATION
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Alves, will you state your full name, and the De-
partment you represent ?
Mr. Alves. H. S. Alves, United States Office of Education.
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Alves, the statement by Mr. J. W. Studebaker,
Commissioner of Education, which you have presented to us, will be
entered in the record at this point.
(The statement is as follows:)
STATEMENT BY J. W. STUDEBAKER, COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION,
UNITED STATES OFFICE OF EDUCATION
Problems of Education Caused By Migrations of Families With Children
OF School Age
Migratory life in general has many undesirable effects on the education of
children. If their parents are on the move rather constantly, as many of them
are, the effect is deplorable, for their unfortunate children eithQr attend school
for abbreviated periods only or not at all. When the parents, whether wealthy
or of moderate means, have permanent places of abode during a part of the
time the schools are in session, but travel about or remove to a temporary
lesidence during the remaining time, the education of their children is neces-
sarily disturbed to some extent at least.
This presentation, however, is limited chiefly to the movements or migrations
of those persons and families that travel from place to place in search of em-
ployment or, as some do, for no particular purpose except to gratify their roving
dispositions. Such a limitation excludes the movements of those who travel
regularly or occasionally to places for the primary purpose of seeking desirable
climates or other pleasures. While children of the latter group do create
problems in school administration, the financial phase of such problems can
generally be solved by means of nonresident tuition charges.
migrations which create difficult problems in educational administration
and finance
In its study, migration of workers, the United States Department of Labor
divides interstate migrants into two major classifications, "constant" and "re-
moval." These are defined as follows :^
D. S. Department of Labor, Migration of Workers, p. 2.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3593
"Seasonal and casual workers who move continually from job to job will be
referred to as constant migrants. Migration is sometimes mistalienly discussed
as though this were the only group of migrants. Even more fundamental and
presenting at times extremely serious problems is the group of removal mi-
grants, who move in response to a fairly permanent relocation of their work.
Such migration may be internal or across international boundaries. The west-
ward movement of population in the United States is an important example of
internal removal, while the arrival of foreign immigrants to this country is a
movement of the same type except that it takes place across national lines.
"Frequently the removal migrants merge into the class of constant migrants.
Thus the drought refugees, who are clearly removal migrants in origin, have
often become seasonal workers, moving from job to job, when they have been
unable to reestablish themselves permanently in any one community. Much
migration during the recent depression also belongs to an intermediate class.
Numerous depression migrants took to the road because of lack of work or
relief at home and not usually with the intention of moving constantly. Some
have returned to their former homes, so that their migration was special and
temporary. Some have resettled, and thus become removal migrants. Others
have continued to search for work on the road and so become constant migrants
recruited from the relocating forces of the depression."
Neither of the two groups of migrants described in the foregoing quotation
need to be limited with respect to problems of education to interstate migra-
tion. However, the education problems involved have different aspects when
the movements are intrastate as compared to those which are interstate.
Of the migrations of families with children, those designated "constant,"
of course, present problems in relation to school administration year after year.
As indicated in the report those designated "removal" are likely to be more
extreme and significant in a quantitative way when they do occur. Both have
implications on school situations.
CONSTANT MIGRATION
It is Obvious that the school work of children of families constantly on the
move cannot be satisfactory in many respects. Children of families working
in the vegetable and fruit harvests of south Texas, then in the cotton fields of
central and north Texas and Oklahoma, and finally in the beet fields of Colorado,
are out of school during a part or all of the school term. Those who are
fortunate enough to attend at all usually are obliged to adjust themselves to
three or four school situations.
While the effects on the schooling of children of migrant parents have not
been thoroughly investigated, some studies have been made. One of these
reports as follows : ^
"The records for 656 children were furnished by the Philadelphia school au-
thorities. This number included some children outside the compulsory at-
tendance age which in Pennsylvania in 1938, extended from 8 to 16 years, in-
clusive. The law exempts from school attendance (1) children who have
completed high school, (2) children 16 years of age who hold employment
certificates, (3) children 16 years of age who are mentally unable to profit from
further schooling, and (4) children of 15 and 16 years who have completed the
sixth grade and are employed at farm or domestic work because of parental
need."
"Children coming into Pennsylvania from other States for migratory work
are covered by the Pennsylvania school law and receive the same educational
advantages as resident children. In New Jersey, however, there is no law
requiring nonresident children to attend school, and no provision is made for
their education.
"Philadelphia schools in 1938 closed on June 26 and reopened on September
g * * *
"By the end of April 20.7 percent of the families had gone to the country,
45.0 percent went in May, and 29.9 percent in June. Eleven families went out
after July 1, most of them for fall harvesting.
* National Child Labor Committee, A Summer in tlie Country. New Yorlc, N. Y.,
p. 23-25.
3594
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Percent of rural
g(-g^-g . children retarded
Colorado 24.2
California 18.9
Wisconsin 11.3
Iowa 8.9
Kentucky 44.2
"By the end of August 42.8 percent had returned, 21.9 percent returned in
September, and 33.9 percent in October. Only two families who remained
out until after November 1 were visited in Philadelphia * * * but several
calls were made at homes to which families had not returned by this time.
"Of the 656 children there were 588, or 89.6 percent, who missed time from
school in the spring or fall or both. The time lost averaged 39 days of school —
just 1 day less than 2 school months. The New Jersey Commission to Inves-
tigate the Employment of Migratory Children in New Jersey found that for
the year 1930 the average time lost from school by the children of migrants
was exactly the same, 39 days."
Another study is reported by Luella M. King :^
Comparison of retardation of migratory and nonmigratory rural children in
representative parts of the United States
Percent of migratory
gtate : children retarded
Colorado 42.1
Oregon 31.6
Washington 60-25.5
Michigan 44.3
New Jersey 79.7
Maryland 69.7
Removal migration. — There are many migrations which may be classified
as "removal" according to the definition of this term in the study made by
the Department of Labor and quoted above. Probably the best known of these
is the movement of families which took place during the previous decade from
drought-stricken regions of the central part of the country. Less generally
discussed are such migrations as those of the families of workers from the
locations of industrial and other projects which have been completed or have
reached the stage where the services of fewer workers are needed to the sites
of other projects where there are, or seem to be, better opportunities of
securing employment. Depending upon the inducements offered, the latter
migrations in addition usually include families of workers from various kinds
of previous employment and from various sections of the country. These
migrations are toward such projects as newly discovered and developing oil
fields and mining districts and reclamation, defense, and other projects of
the United States Government.
While most of the population movements under this second classification have
implications upon school problems, probably none have exceeded the serious pro-
portions of those of the present time resulting from the migrations of workers to
the locations of national-defense projects. Recent reports from many schools in
the vicinities of these projects indicate that large numbers of the children of
these workers have no school to attend.
WATS AND MEANS OF SOLVING THE PROBLEMS
Population movements from one area to another within States emphasize the
importance of adequate support or guaranty by each State government for a
foundation education program for all communities of the State. Similarly migra-
tions across State lines, particularly in extraordinary cases, in all likelihood
result in situations with respect to education which call for some kind of financial
assistance by the Federal Government. While it may be possible for most States
themselves to effect educational adjustments made necessary by migrations within
their respective borders, great movements of people across State lines are almost
certain to magnify the problem to such an extent as to make its immediate
solution practically impossible without assistance from the Federal Government,
There are many complicating factors in the problem of providing school facili-
ties for children of migratory workers. School budgets are invariably prepared
early in the school year, and taxes are levied shortly thereafter. If a fairly
* King, Luella M., Troblems of Education Relating to Seasonal and Migrator.v Labor,
Washington, D. C, 1931. Bulletin of the Department of Rural Education of the National
Education Association, p. 31.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3595
constant number of children of seasonal workers come into a school district at a
definite time each year, that fact can be considered at the time of preparing the
budget. On the other hand, if the number is not constant, or a very large number
comes unexpectedly, the difficulty is obvious.
Seasonal workers employed in the raising and harvesting of crops move not only
within States but frequently from State to State. A sound program of school
finance can under ordinary conditions guarantee salaries of teachers and other
costs of current expense. But the problem of providing suitable building facilities
in a district which has an influx of 200 migratory children for only 2 months each
year is a special problem. Many States have such problems and many ways of
solving them have been tried. One State in particular has definitely taken steps
to provide schools for the children of migratory workers.
The laws of the State of California provide that State funds not to exceed $75
per teacher and an equal amount of county funds may be used for salaries of
teachers of migratory children whenever in the judgment of the county superin-
tendent and county board of education such teacher or teachers are necessary.
The funds provided for this purpose, however, are hardly suflBcient for such
extraordinary demands as required for the establishment and maintenance of
schools for children of workers on the Mount Shasta Dam and for those of laborers
on national-defense projects in the school district of Vallejo at the present time.
No other State has a provision of law similar to this.
In his report for 1939, the commissioner of education of the State of New
Jersey writes: *
"This is a serious problem, but I am of the opinion that it cannot be solved by
special schooling until the legislature passes acts which are constitutionally sound
and which prohibit the employment on school days of nonresident children who
happen to be in New Jersey and who are under 16 years of age. It will be
necessary for the legislature to define a migrant child, to determine how long he
may remain in the State without coming under the Compulsory School Attend-
ance Act, and to state definitely whether or not such temporary resident if placed
in a foster home by an approved public or private social agency may be regarded
as one entitled to attend school in that district. There should be included defini-
tions which enable us to determine whether or not an apportionment of $4.j per
child should be made to the local school district. It will be necessary to know
whether children who come from other States and who live here the major portion
of the school year while their parents live in another State are entitled to free
schooling.
"In my judgment, this is a problem concerning which we must have a definite
State policy. Certainly these children should receive a free public-school educa-
tion either in their own communities or in New Jersey. Some of them remain
here as long as 100 days each year, but the great majority are here only from 10 to
40 days. Very definite provision should be made for them. It is not a very
large problem, however, as most recent data indicate that there were last year only
some 656 children in the State who may be classified as 'migrants.' "
POSSIBLE SOLUTION
1. A definite State policy which includes :
(a) Residence of pupils. Provision for the schooling of children irrespective of
the time they have lived in the State.
(6) Compulsory attendance. Provision for the compulsory attendance of all
children of migratory workers, as of nonmigratory children.
(c) Financial program. Provision for State funds for the support of all State-
approved schools for migratory children.
2. Definite Federal Government policy which includes :
(a) Authorization for continuing appropriation sufficient to pay all salaries of
the teachers necessary for children who have migrated into the resi)ective States
during the current school year.
(&) Special provision for the use of Federal Government funds for school
building purposes in emergency situations, such as the school building crisis now
present in many communities as a result of the national-defense activities.
* Elliott, Charles H., Annual Report of the Commissioner of Education for the School
Year Ending June 30, 1939, pp. 16-17.
2^gg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
TESTIMONY OF HENRY S. ALVES— Resumed
Mr. Parsons. Your statement contains a great deal of data with
reference to the education of migrant children, and you quote from
studies of Luella M. King, which compares the retarding of mi-
grants with nonmigrant rural children in the various States.
Do you have any information as to the proportion of migrants
of nonagricultural children and their retardation in schools?
Mr. Alves. We have very little information; in fact, it is too
limited on the whole proposition, so far as the children themselves
are concerned. The information we have in the main is limited.
Mr. Parsons. This is mainly a new problem that has arisen prin-
cipally in the last decade, has it not?
Mr. Alves. I do not think it is necessarily a new problem, but
we have not paid enough attention to it perhaps.
Mr. Parsons. It has become more acute, we will say, in the last
decade than formerly.
Mr. Alves. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. Your statement suggests as a part of a possible solu-
tion that provision be made from the Federal Treasury of appro-
priation for the payment of teachers' salaries where teachers are
necessary for migrants.
Will you comment on that to the committee, please ?
FEDERAL FUNDS TO EDUCATE MIGRANTS
Mr. Alves. Yes. Basically any time children are moved into tem-
porary residence, that automatically creates a school difficulty; and
also basically any time any large number of such children get into
a local area it upsets automatically the normal planning for provid-
ing educational facilities in that locality.
The statement shows that two types of migration involve two
problems, as defined by Miss King.
The complicating factor in the problem of providing schools for
migrant workers results because many school budgets, in fact, those
of all the States, are prepared on the basis of a tax levy which
remains for that year.
Should it happen that in a given locality you have a fairly con-
stant number of children of these workers in the district, and in
your local schools at this time each year, that fact could be con-
sidered in the preparation of the budget within the limited financial
ability of the locality.
On the other hand, if the number is not constant, as is particu-
larly the case right now in the country, if a very large number
come in and are not registered you have a very serious difficulty,
which is quite obvious.
Even if it were possible for a given locality to take care of the
normal procedure, when you have an influx of children into a
locality it may even prevent the local authorities from securing from
regular channels sufficient funds to provide funds for current ex-
penses; that is, for teachers' salaries particularly. It is actually
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3597
doing that in a number of definite localities. Over and above that,
the locality would have difficulty in providing capital outlay funds,
that is, for buildings and equipment, because it is the general prac-
tice in States to have a limitation insofar as localities are concerned,
with reference to bonded indebtedness.
Where these groups, the migratory children particularly, come
from States to the community and may be there for a limited time,
naturally it presents a temporary problem because even in this
way it is an addition to the requirements which the localities are
faced with in their regular program. It is not only difficult for
the locality, but the States have difficulty in making provisions on a
temporary basis.
PROBLEM OF SCHOOL FINANCING
Mr. Parsons. What are the basic reasons for the inequalities in
the standards of education in the various States?
Mr. Alves. What are the basic reasons?
Mr. Parsons. Yes; for these inequalities. Is it a matter of taxa-
tion?
Mr. Alves. Financing, of course, is back of it all. But, so far as
this particular problem goes, if you have an influx of a thousand
children in a community that normally has only 1,200, you can see
the type of problems that come up.
Capital outlay is usually — in fact in all the States — is the respon-
sibility of the locality. States as yet have not gone into the program
of providing funds from State sources for buildings, with a few
exceptions.
Mr. Parsons. That is right. And many States have not gone into
a program of State-wide distribution of funds for the benefit of poor
localities.
Mr. Alves. Even in the case of those States that do have State-
wide distribution, you have got varying bases or methods of dis-
tributing those funds.
Wliere these gi-oups of children of migratory workers come into
localities of one State from another State, for just temporary resi-
dence, it does not seem logical to expect the local community to
vote bonds to put up buildings that will house these folks 6 months
in the year or may house them for 2 years, and never house them
again.
Mr. Curtis. At that point I think it is weU to call to your atten-
tion the testimony of an expert witness who appeared before us
in our San Francisco hearing and whose name I shall ask a mem-
ber of the staff to supply.
He had gone into this problem and made intensive studies of the
situation in California where they had been on the receiving end
of so many thousands of families. He came before us with a num-
ber of charts.
It was his opinion that, contrary to the views of many local people,
chambers of commerce and otherwise, that California was not
making any additional capital outlay for buildings and school plants
qrgo INTERSTATE MIGRATION
because of the migrant problem; that they were an ambitious, for-
ward-looking people and were building for the future, and that
by and large California school building costs were not going up
because of these migrants. Well, one reason was that they claimed
to be able to assimilate these people. There was a popular erroneous
notion prevalent that it was adequate, of course, but he presented
a very fine paper to the committee indicating that it was not.
Mr, Alves. Of course, it is perfectly possible that a certain num-
ber of pupils in any school system can be absorbed to the extent
that the present plant facilities are not utilized. In other words, you
do have one other possible factor that enters into it, and that is the
utilization of facilities. It is conceivable that if you have a school
plant that now houses 2,000 children, if you put on two shifts, y^u
can house 4,000. That is something that has not been done. We
do not start a shift at 8 in the morning and another one at 4 m the
afternoon, except for defense training; I mean, for elementary
pupils. . , ..^^ .
Mr. Curtis. But the schoolhouse that is constructed m 1940 is
ordinarily planned for a possible school population of 15 or 20 years
later, is it not?
SCHOOL HOUSING DUTICULTlES
Mr. Alves. Well, that effort is there, all right; that is, the inten-
tion is there, but quite often we miss it by a great deal. It is pretty
hard to tell. It depends on the local community. It depends on
the type of community that it is.
I have seen locations where a building was put up with the idea
that it would be fully occupied in 5 years and they never did use
more than 3 rooms out of a 10-room building.
I do not think we can take that type of situation as a general
thing.
Mr. Curtis. We will always have to contend with the situation
of the sudden collapse of some new industry or of a sudden boom
being created.
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Alves, for 8 years I was connected with the
educational system of the State of Illinois and had a great deal
to do with a great many buildings. It is my belief that the situa-
tion there is not unlike that of other States, and it was my observa-
tion and experience that they waited until they were already over-
crowded before they built. They usually built to take care of just
about what the load was at the time, or perhaps looked forward a
few years into the future.
Mr. Alves. I think that is an observation that would apply gen-
erally, for this reason : because of the fact that your capital outlay
the country over is a responsibility that has been placed on the
locality. Everybody thinks that is where the capital outlay funds
ought to come from. With the exception of your highly concen-
trated centers of population, it is very difficult, in the average local
school unit, to vote more than just what they absolutely have to
have, because you have other purposes, other types of governmental
service, which require capital outlay.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3599
Of course, there are many ramifications and many factors that
I do not think j^ou want to go into here. But I think that your
observation is quite generally accurate.
Mr. Parsons. In the case of the problem that we are now studying,
of course, you are vitally interested in the Office of Education, is
that correct ?
Mr. Alves. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. And in looking after the education of the children
of the migrant workers in the defense program. But those children
are not working as are the children of the migrant agricultural
worker who really bring in more income to the family, perhaps,
than the adults; for instance, the fruit-picking, the potato-picking,
perhaps even in the case of the cotton-picking and the sugar-beet
harvesting.
Now, in that particular case, the children never have an oppor-
tunity, at the time of the year when there is school, of going to
school.
What studies have been made and what observations would you
have to offer as to that problem? To me, throughout all of these
hearings, that has been the worst feature of the migrant's problem,
the future of these citizens when they become adults.
Mr. Al\tes. Your question is not with particular reference to the
defense program?
Mr. Parsons. Not this particular one; no.
ROVING TEXAS CROP WORKERS
Mr. Alves. Unfortunately, if there are any studies, of any extent,
I am not familiar with them. I can respond from personal experience
which covers about 30 years. I happen to be from a State that got
quite a bit of lauding this morning, the grand State of Texas. I have
seen the same roving worker in the Laredo area, in December-January,
where, if he was not forced to go out into the onion fields, he had a
chance to go to school for 6 weeks. I have seen him some 60 days
later in what is called the winter-garden section, where the parents
went to work in the spinach fields, the asparagus fields, or picked
peaches. I have seen him in May and June, around the San Antonio
area, in the cotton fields and in the fall, in October, I found him around
Lubbock, where his parents and perhaps he also were picking cotton.
And I understand that just a little bit later you may find him in
Colorado, with a move that brings him back to the Rio Grande Valley
in December or January. Specifically, the problems that you get into
are merely these. There are two types of effects. One is on the child
and the other one is on the local school system where he happens to be,
provided he is given a chance to go to school.
The effect on the child is quite obvious. He is out of school a great
portion of the time, especially if he is a member of a low-income family,
as most of those seasonal workers are. By the time he is 8 years old
he is going to pick cotton or he is going to get out into the onion fields
unless something stops him from going there. Theoretically that is the
compulsory-education law.
3gQ(j INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Parsons. But he is on the move so much that the compulsory-
education law seldom catches up with him.
Mr. Alves. That is true, or perhaps let us get him in a situation
where the compulsory-education law is conscientiously enforced. Here
is this local school system of 8 rooms that are already just about full,
finding 200 of these children to take care of within a 2-mile radius,
living here, there, and yonder. The local school authorities are not
going to be putting forth too much effort to pick up another 200 to put
in rooms already crowded.
Mr. Parsons. We found this during our first hearings in New York.
About fifty to sixty thousand agricultural workers, including the chil-
dren, starting from Florida, say, in December, or not later than Janu-
ary, working in the small fruits and vegetables, coming farther north
as the season opens, into the Carolinas; up the coast, winding up in
New Jersey in July and August; then starting back down, probably
picking cotton on the way back, harvesting tobacco later on in the fall.
So that that family, with its children, is on the road at least 10 months
of the year, without any opportunity for those children, especially from
10 to 14 years of age, to look inside of a schoolroom. And they bring
more income into the family, because of the nature of the work, than
the adults do.
That has only been an acute problem in the last 10 years because
formerly, if the adult went north and made somewhat of the same trip,
the family was left domiciled at a particular spot. But now these chil-
dren have been on the road for 10 years. They are growing. They
will soon have families of their own, and yet have not had any oppor-
tunity to go to school more than a year or two out of their entire life.
What are we going to do with that kind of a problem ? That is the
problem that worries me more than anything else about this entire
migrant picture.
NEW LEGISLATION NECESSARY
]\Ir. Al%'es. Here is the type of problem a State faces — and this is
referred to on page 5 of the material that we submitted, and is taken
from the report in 1939 of the Commissioner of Education of the
State of New Jersey. (See p. 3595, this volume.) He says:
This is a serious problem, but I am of the opinion that it cannot be solved
by special schooling until the legislature passes acts which are constitutionally
sound and which prohibit the employment on schools days of nonresident
children —
Nonresident children; in other words, your child-labor laws are
operative within the States and not across the State boundaries,
who happen to be in New Jersey and who are under 16 years of age.
The same statement can be made relative to the compulsory-educa-
tion law.
It will be necessary for the legislature to define a migrant child, to determine
how long he may remain in the State without coming under the Compulsory
School-Attendance Act * * *.
It is also necessary to define the migrant child so that States in
their respective programs of financing may know when to spend State
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3f;Ql
money on that child, because those laws within a State are all written
for children who are residents of the localities in the State.
Mr. Parsoxs. And whose parents are generally taxpayers, if they
possess any property.
Mr. Al%t:s. The average State le^lation reads about like this:
That a child from such an age to such an age is entitled t^o attend
the public free schools in the locality, the school district, or the town,
or the city where his parents resicle. The question is. first of all,
where do these folks reside ? You are going to find, of course, as you
know, a lot of them will not say that any State is their residence.
So you hare that type of problem.
Xow, over and above what the .States could do in their own legis-
lation to clarify the problems, as suggested in this Xew Jersey report,
you do have that field in which the State will not have jurisdiction
because these migrants go from State to State. It seems that the only
agency that can come in and help on that is the Federal Government.
I do not see, in other words, how legislation coidd be passed in
Florida that would compel New Jersej' to take care of the children
that come from Florida and stay in Xew Jersey for 6 weeks.
Mr. Parsons. That is very true.
iMr. Al\-es. Of course, you may say, "Well, it is a matter of re-
ciprocal action."' Yes, but it is just himian nature : when we get far
from home, we are not noticed as much.
Mr. Parsons. I think it is a very good idea for children to want
to work with their hands.
^Ir. Alves. Yes, agreed.
3rrsT have feze education
;Mr. Parsons. That is what made America great. I am not averse
to that in the summer season. But we do realize in this country a
responsibihty, and it was one of the thoughts of the founders of the
country, the authors of the Constitution, that in a democracy we must
have free public education. And while these children are getting a
better experience in some respects than the average child gets, so far
as learning to do things and learning to live with himself and with
others, yet at the same time we recognize that he must have some
opportunity to acquire knowledge from the printed page and from
school institutions.
The big problem to me is how we are going to educate these chil-
dren who are constantly on the move, whose services are needed
in order to make the family budget sufficient to take care of them-
selves.
We must attack it from two angles, I think. One is. we must stop
them from working during the school period.
Mr. Al^xs. That is correct.
^Ir. Parsons. Some means must be found to do that. And then, sec-
ondly, we must have the institutions which they may attend at the
points where they find themselves in the school period. Do you agree
with that ?
^b-. Alves. That is right. Xow. the States have done both of those
things for citizens within the boimdaries. Legislatively, in the main,
3602
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
they have. But when Johnnie Jones gets out of his State for 6 weeks
nobody claims him, nobody can touch him because he is not a resident ;
you have got your residence laws. So it takes cooperative effort over
and beyond what a State may do within its own boundaries.
Mr. Parsons. Very well ; enough on that. Now, the committee would
like to hear from you with reference to the contemplated program in
national defense for the education of tliese migrant people.
Mr. Alves. Are you referring to the study called for in connection
with the defense housing program projects?
Mr. Parson. That is right. You were touching on that when I broke
in with this other subject.
Mr. Alves. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. You were about to say, I think, that in the case of
overcrowded conditions they put on a double shift.
Mr. Alves. The reason I was hesitating a little was the use of your
word migratory there. They are not all migratory children that go
into these localities.
Mr. Parsons. Not at all. You might term that the surplus, the
extra ones, that come in ; the extra migrants that come in, which makes
it a problem of surplus.
Mr. Alves. The question then comes down to this : How will school
facilities be provided for the influx of children of persomiel connected
with activities of the defense program in concentrated areas ? Is that
right ? That is the question, is it not ?
Mr. Parsons. That is the question.
STUDY EDUCATION OF DEFENSE ^VlORKERS' CHILDREN
Mr. Alves. Our office, in response to the requests of the Secretary of
War and the Secretary of the Navy, is making the study called for
under Senate Kesolution 324, which, as you know, is the resolution
requiring the Secretary of War and the Secretary of the Navy to make
a full and complete study of school facilities at or near navy yards,
Army or military reservations. Army or Navy bases, at which defense-
housing programs are being carried on or are contemplated, to deter-
mine first whether defense-housing programs require additional school
facilities; second, whether localities where such influx of population
takes place are in a position to provide those facilities; and third,
whether the Federal Government should provide such school facilities
irrespective of the financial ability of the locality. Now, that study
is in progress and our office is working through the offices of Stat©
superintendents and commissioners of education in the respective
States.
We are hoping and planning on the basis of the information that is
now available, relative to these local areas, to have estimates of needed
school facilities submitted by the respective chief State school officers
of those areas, in the States that are involved. We hope to have that
information within the next 10 days. Much of it will be tentative,
because we have not at tliis time a definite base for each locality to work
on. Specifically, if the munitions-plant project at Wilmington, just
south of Joliet, 111., has not reached a state of development where the
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3603
housing authorities may definitely plan and thus recommend definite
allocations, any estimates that are now prepared for that area would
just have to be tentative. They are purely estimates.
I have not answered any question yet that you have raised and
cannot answer it except in one way, and I am afraid I am getting
outside of the territory of this discussion.
HOUSING PROVIDES SMALL SCHOOL FUND
The act known as the Lanham bill, Public, 849, which is the De-
fense Housing Act, makes provision out of that appropriation for
community facilities, which is defined to include schools, but it
limits it to 3 percent of the total appropriation, the amount of money
that may be spent out of that appropriation for community facilities.
In other words, 3 percent of $150,000,000 is $4,500,000 for community
facilities, including health, sanitation, schools, police, and fire pro-
tection, if necessary, and so on.
The provision in section 9 of that act is that the administrator of
the act may make payments of annual sums in lieu of taxes.
I cite those two provisions as the most definite answer to the
question, How will these be provided? Those are the only two pro-
visions that definitely, so far as the Federal Government is concerned,
make provision for school facilities in those local areas affected by
the activities of the defense program.
Mr. Parsons. It is the only source of any material aid.
Mr. Alves. To date.
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mr. Alves. I do not now whether that is the type of answer you
wanted here. Outside of that, I know of no special definite provisions
for that except that, again, the locality and the State will have to
do the best they can.
Mr. Curtis. At that point, these defense industries are a very
coveted thing, are they not?
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Each community is clamoring for defense industries.
Now, in order for a community to secure some of these, they state
that they have sufficient transportation facilities and they have other
tilings that they will be glad to furnish the Government and the
industry that is going to locate there. Why should not we explore
the possibilities of placing definite requirements upon the locality
before they secure a defense industry with regard to the education
of tlie children of the people that the industry is going to iDring in ?
Mr. Alves. I presume that was already being done. Of course,
that is not in our jurisdiction in the office of education. But I
presume that was done. However, even though you explore those
conditions, you have not anywhere covered the total realm of the
problem.
Mr. Curtis. That is very true.
Mr. Parsons. How many youths — if you can give any estimate
may receive training in this program that is under study at the
present time?
Mr. Alves. How many youths ?
260370— 41— pt. 9 10
ggQ^ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
YOUTH TRAINING AND HOUSING PROBLEMS
Mr. Parsons. Could you give an estimate on the studies that have
been made, or that are under way at the present time, as to how
many youths may be given training ?
Mr. Alves. I think my own answer to that would be an indication of
the procedure followed to try to get that estimate. We are not far
enough along for me to be safe in saying 50,000 or 100,000. In those
local areas where there have been definite allocations for housing units
we have a distinct, tangible guide that can be used. For example, if
in a local area there are 1,000 housing units authorized, and each of
those units will accommodate on an average a family of four or five
members— two adults and two or three children — on the basis of that
information we can apply the ratio of children of school age to the
total population and get an estimate of the number of children
involved.
Now, if I may project that— and this is purely an estimate ; please
understand I am not quoting anything definite and do not have it-
let us assume that there are a hundred thousand housing units needed
in the local areas because of the influx of personnel connected directly
with some project of the defense program, whether it is an army camp,
or a navy yard, a munitions plant, a steel works, an aviation plant, or
what not. One hundred thousand housing units of this type automati-
cally means families, or there would not be any housing units. If the
100,000 averages 4 members to the family, that makes 400,000 people.
Even if we accept the general ratio on a Nation-wide basis, we know
that one-fifth to one-fourth of that population of 400,000 will be chil-
dren of school age.
If it is 100,000 individuals, we have something tangible to start
working on. As soon as we have definite information from the schools
in each of the local areas as to how many additional children they can
absorb into their existing school plant facilities to fill them up com-
pletely, all we need to do is to subtract that figure from 100,000 and we
have a figure that would, roughly, represent the number of children
for whom no school facilities are available.
Just for argument's sake, I am going to guess you cannot absorb
more than one-third of these. I think my guess is high, but I am
still guessing it. So I will say immediately we will have around 60,000
to 65,000 children who are dislocated, so far as schools go. They have
been taken away from some place where they have been going to school ;
they have been placed in a position where there are no school facilities.
Now, again, if we go on the basis of a general average, say, of 30
pupils to a teacher, there immediately arises a need for 2,000 teaching
rooms, classroom units, to accommodate 60,000 pupils. Now, if I have
guessed anywhere near correctly, 100,000 units would permit us to go
either under or over and above, as we get the exact figures. I do not
know whether 100,000 units is right. I said 100,000 because I think I
am away low. A recent figure I saw officially I think indicates there
are around 60,000 or better.
Mr. Parsons. Do you think you will have this information withm
the next 10 days?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3605
Mr. Alves. We hope to get from the States, by about December
16, an estimate of the needs in those local areas for which they could
secure, from such sources as the employment service and the houf^-
ing authorities, information of a sufficient nature, sufficiently reli-
able nature, that would permit them to make an estimate. We hope
to have that by December 16 and then, under that resolution, we have
to prepare the reports to the War and Navy Departments ; but I pre-
sume we will be called on by other interested Federal agencies in this
whole field, such as the housing agencies and certain sections of the
Advisory Commission of the Defense Council, too.
Mr. Parsons. Now, the committee will not close its hearings until
about the 12th, and the printing of the record will not be closed,
upon suspension of the hearings, until probably a few days after
that and, if you have those figures by the 16th or I7th, we could use
them here at this point in the record. I think the committee would
like to have them and, if you have permission to do that, we would
be glad to have you send them down as soon as you get them. The
chances are these hearings will not go to press until around the 20th
of December, or maybe the first of the year, and we would like to
have the benefit of those figures in the record at this point.
Mr. Alves. I will certainly be glad to carry that message and
request back to the Commission.
^Ir. Parsons. And if you can get it, you can send it directly to the
committee here at the Old House Office Building.
Mr. Alves. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Do you have any figures or estimates on how many
youth are being trained in private vocational schools at the present
time ?
Mr. Alves. In private vocational schools — I do not know, but I
am sure the vocational division would have.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, the N. Y. A. is planning quite a defense
program in the way of training both boys and girls in certain voca-
tions that might be of aid and assistance in the national defense pro-
gram, if the worst came to the worst.
Are there any questions?
Mr. Sparkman. I would like to ask just one. Mr, Alves, under
5'our possible solutions, I notice it is recommended that the Federal
Government's policy include authorization for continuing appropria-
tions sufficient to pay all salaries of the teachers necessary for chil-
dren who have migrated into the respective States during the cur-
rent school year. The only thought I have in mind is this: If you
are going to give that help to those States that are on the receiving
end of these migrants, a great many of whom are going to be ab-
sorbed as a part of the permanent population of that State, then
in fairness and justice should not you give it to these States that
have educated them up to that point. States which are losing them
as a part of their permanent population ?
Mr. Alves. Of course, if I understand your question correctly, I
think you are going into a much broader problem than this is.
Mr. Sparkman. I realize I am, but it does tie in with this.
3606 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
MIGRATING SCHOOL TEACHERS
Mr. Alves. Yes, that is true. Now, one idea in connection with
the suggestion for an authorization would be this; If you had a
group 01 100 families that start from Florida and wind up 8 months
later in New Jersey in the cranberry bottoms, and in that group of
100 families you have 100 children, say, of elementary school age,
those children would receive much greater benefits by having 2 or 3
teachers who would just go right along with them. That is so because
the effect on the child of attending 3 or 4 different schools in a year,
even if he does not go to work, is quite degrading to the child itself.
And our point here is that that, of course, would have to be done in
accordance with good financial procedure, with the funds paid if, as,
and when, on the basis of definite plans, the State showed a need for it.
The whole purpose of that statement is to recognize the fact that
the child may be in three, or four, or five States during the school
year, and a given State may take care of that child — may follow
him up, may see that he goes to school, may make provision for
him within its boundaries, but the minute he goes out of that
boundary he is gone. Now, to guarantee that the very thing does
not happen that was mentioned a while ago, namely, that the child is
not penalized, it occurs the only way out is to have a continuous
check, and perhaps that will call for this type of financial assistance..
Mr. Sparkman. I can easily see it from the explanation you give
there, but I did not see that included in this statement of yours. I
could not interpret it from the recommendation in the printed
statement.
Mr. Alves. I think probably we might have been a little over-
cautious not to get into the broader problem here.
Mr. Parsons. So your answer to my question of 30 minutes ago,
on the problem of the working migrant cliild, is to send the teacher
with him ?
Mr. Alves. I think that is the better way, in my own estimation.
Mr. Parsons. And you would have the Federal Government coop-
erate with the States in giving Federal aid for that purpose ?
Mr. Alves. If that is needed; if there is need established.
Mr. Curtis. Where is that teacher going to hold school?
Mr. Alves. In the school facilities in the localities. These mi-
grant workers do not just jump 5 miles, they will jump 500 miles;
and in May of each year they will be in about the same area, in the
same locality, within a 10- or 15-mile radius. They will come an-
nually to that same area again.
Mr. Parsons. Are they going to be segregated from the other
students?
staggered classes, portable schools
Mr. Alves. Not necessarily. But there is a 10-teacher school at
location X; it can absorb 30 pupils, but 200 come in regularly, for 2
months, at a given time of the school year. Now, you cannot absorb
the other 170 in that building unless you stagger the classes, stagger
your program. Suppose the occasion arises where you need to put in
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3607
4 rooms; it is very questionable whether you would want to build a
brick addition of 4 rooms, because in 3 years' time you might find that
those 4 rooms would serve a much better purpose 20 miles away. Now,
it is not impossible to conceive of this thing of having portable school
buildings, such as we use in the mushroom towns, in connection with
the oil fields, that pop up overnight; then, 5 years later, they are
moved to the next oil field. You might have portable buildings that
go along and, if you need to move them in 3 years, why, you can
pick them up and move them. But the minute you get that type of
provision, you cannot expect the given locality to bond itself this year
when that locality may know that 3 years from that time it will not
need that. So it becomes a responsibility that is beyond any one small
locality. That is the first point to recognize, I think.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, an itinerant teacher with those children
would be better than none at all.
Mr. Alves. Well, I think it would be better than having five teachers
in the same year. Of course, that is something you can argue both
ways.
Mr. Parsons. I am inclined to agree with you that it would be better
than having five teachers in the same year, because they could conduct
night classes ; but you would have to segregate them largely from the
regularly established educational institutions in the community.
Mr. Alves. Maybe this does not belong in the record, but I would
certainly prefer to have my own youngster, 9 years of age, be with
one teacher from September to June than to have him with five
different teachers because I move into five different localities.
Mr. Parsons. There is certainly a very decided advantage there, as
meager as it is, whatever it might be, in travel.
Mr. Alves. Your portable facilities do not necessarily have to be
meager. I have seen portable buildings numbering 20 or 30 in a
school system that had as many portable rooms as permanent rooms,
and 5 years later you find only 4 of those portable buildings and the
other 15 or 16 have been moved 20 miles. It is possible.
Mr. Parsons. Wherever they have established camps and suitable
housing facilities, like the Farm Security Administration has done
in a few instances, a barracks or room, or more than one room if
necessary, could be set aside for educational purposes ?
Mr. Alves. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. And night schools could be conducted along with that
to suit the hours and the needs of the children, and they could come
in for a session in the morning for certain training, and then use
that during the day, so that a large number of children would obtain
at least some training with just one or two or three teachers for a
couple hundred children. I concede that that plan would be better
than no education at all — decidedly so.
Mr. Alves. Yes; and the mere fact these camps you refer to have
been established is, of course, a recognition that you have a periodic
influx with considerable regularity, is it not ; otherwise you would not
build those camps ?
Now, the minute you have anything as definite as that, if your local
schools cannot absorb the influx of children, you can certainly make
3gQ§ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
provision much more readily through that type of procedure, that is,
portable buildings, than you could if you are going to put up a brick
building which might not be used there 5 years lat«r.
Mr. Parsons. That is the first recommendation of this kind that we
have had in our rounding out these hearings, and I am very glad to
have you put that view forward in the record.
If there are no further questions, we thank you very much, Mr. Alves.
Mr. Alves. Thank you.
Mr. Parsons. Your statement has been very fine and very illuminat-
ing. I am sorry the other two members of the committee have not been
here to hear this discussion this morning. Thank you very kindly.
Mr. Alves. I assure you, if our office can be of any assistance in any
way, we will be delighted to do our part.
(The committee thereupon took a recess until 2 o'clock p. m.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The committee reconvened pursuant to the taking of recess, Hon.
John H. Tolan (chairman) presiding.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order, please, and I will
call first Mr. McCrea.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN McCREA, TRANSIENT BUREAU,
WASHINGTON, D. C.
The Chairman. Your name is John McCrea ?
Mr. McCrea. Yes, sir; John McCrea.
The Chairman. Where do you live ?
Mr. McCrea. My home is in Lancaster, N. Y., just out of Buffalo.
The Chairman. How old are you ?
Mr. McCrea. Thirty-four.
The Chairman. Are you married ?
Mr. McCrea. No, sir ; I am not.
The Chairman, Are you a resident of Washington ?
Mr. McCrea. No, sir ; I am not.
The Chairman. You call that your home down there, do you?
Mr. McCrea. Why, I left home about 11 years ago, 1929 ; so I don't
really have a residence any more.
The Chairman. How do you happen to be in Washington ?
Mr. McCrea. Why, I came down here to try to find employment, you
know, like restaurant work, hotel work. I find it is very hard to obtain,
because they employ colored help, you know.
The Chairman. Is there anything in particular that attracted you to
Washington ?
Mr. McCrea. No, sir ; not particularly.
The Chairman. Did you come alone?
Mr. McCrea. Yes, sir ; I did.
The Chairman. Have you any money?
Mr. McCrea. Well, not very much ; a little.
The Chairman. How long have you been here in Washington ?
Mr. McCrea. Wliy, just about 2 weeks, now.
INTERSTATE MIGR-A.TION 3609
The Chairman. Have you been able to get anything to do ?
Mr. JMcCrea. Why, just odd jobs and things like that, since I have
been in Washington.
The Chairman. What kind of jobs do you do?
Mr. McCrea. Why, I really don't have any trade at all. I have just
been picking up hotel work, restaurant work, wherever I could find
a job.
The Chairman. How much education have you had ?
Mr. McCrea. Just through high school.
The Chairman. Are your parents living ?
Mr. McCrea. My mother is living, and I have a stepfather at home.
The Chairman. He is not working at the present time ?
Mr. McCrea. He is not working at the present time.
The Chairman. How old is your mother ?
Mr, McCrea. My mother is just about 65 years old now.
The Chairman. Why did you leave home — looking for a job?
Mv. McCrea. At that time I was employed at the New York Central
Railroad, just out of Buffalo, and I was laid off because the plant was
closing down, and I could not find employment at that time, and
having trouble with my stepfather, who is very hard to get along with,
I was just compelled to leave home.
The Chaiiuvian. Now, is this the first place you have visited, Wash-
ington, looking for work?
visited 4 3 STATES
Mr. McCrea. No, sir; I have been all over the country. After I
first left home, for about the first 4 or 5 years I just more or less had
the urge to travel, and was picking up odd jobs and just going around
the country. Then I finally tried to settle down, you know, and pick
up steadier work.
The Chairman. How many States did you visit ?
Mr. McCrea. Why, 43 in all.
The Chairman. Forty-three?
Mr. McCrea. Forty-three; yes, sir.
The Chairman. And how did you travel ?
Mr. McCrea. I hitch-hiked most of the time. The first couple of
years, of course, I had my own automobile and traveled in that.
The Chairman. Well, were you able to secure any employment in
those 43 States?
Mr. McCrea. Yes, sir. I have worked in hotels and a couple of
different hospitals, restaurant work, and have done construction work-
all different kinds of odd jobs.
The Chairman. Did you ever live in what is called a migrant
camp, any place ?
Mr. McCrea. Well, I lived in three different transient camps, when
the Transient Bureau was operating.
The Chairman. Where were they?
Mr. McCrea. The first on© I went into was at Springfield, 111. ; the
second one was at Kansas City ; the third one was at Springfield, Mo.
The Chairman. How were those camps — livable ?
^QIQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. MoCrea. They were very good; yes, sir. They kept you as
long as you wished to stay, and as long as you were willing to work
a few hours a day, and the maintenance is very good, and they
supplied you with clothing.
The Chairman. Were they Federal Government camps?
Mr. McCrea. Why, yes, sir ; they were.
The Chairman. What did it cost you there?
Mr. McCrea. What did it cost me ?
The Chairman, Yes.
Mr. McCrea. Wliy, it didn't cost me anything. You see, they
took migrants off of the road, you know, that were willing to stay
and were trying to find employment for themselves, and they could
stay in those camps as long as they desired and as long as they were
willing to work a few hours a day. Of course, they had the rest of
the day to themselves and they could go out and try to find employ-
ment some place.
The Chairman. Did you do your own cooking ?
Mr. McCrea. Why, I was second cook at a summer camp, the last
two summers in the JBerkshire Hills up in Massachusetts.
The Chairman. Since you left home, Mr. McCrea, what was the
next time you actually had a job for any period of time?
Mr. McCrea. The next job I had was in Youngstown, Ohio, with
a construction company that was putting a new boiler house in
the Carnegie steel plant, and that lasted pretty near a year.
The Chairman. Have you ever applied for relief?
Mr. McCrea. No, sir ; t never have.
handicapped worker
The Chairman. Do you think you would have been able to secure
employment if you had some trade, or were a skilled laborer?
Mr. McCrea. Yes, sir; I believe I would; but it is very hard for
me to get a job in a factory, because I am handicapped through the
examination. I have very poor eyesight and, of course, am unable
to pass the examination on account of that. So I usually have to
take just restaurant work, hotel work, and like that.
The Chairman. Have you ever had an opportunity to learn a
trade?
Mr. McCrea. Well, I did when I worked with the New York Cen-
tral. I worked with the New York Central for 4 years, but I went
to the stores department instead of the mechanical, and worked in
the stockroom. But I could have gone ahead and learned the ma-
chinist trade, if I had desired, which I probably should have done.
The Chairman. Where do you call your home?
Mr. McCrea. Why, Lancaster, N. Y., where my mother is living
now.
The Chairman. Have you been voting there?
Mr. McCrea.. Why, no ; I have not been home. You see, I am
really not a resident any more, since I have left home, and, of course,
the only time I have been at home was just for short visits, and then
I would leave again.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3611
The Chairman. Yon feel you have lost your residence at Lancas-
ter, N. Y.?
Mr. McCrea. Oh, yes; because, you see, it has been quite a long
time since I left. I have not been home now in over 2 years.
The Chairman. The last two summers you have worked in sunmier
resort hotels in Massachusetts, have you ?
Mr. McCrea. Yes, sir; I have; up in the Berkshire Hills, in Mas-
sachusetts.
The Chairman. What kind of work did you do ?
Mr, MoCrea. Why, I worked as second cook at the children's camp
up in the Berkshire Hills. The job only lasted about 2 months and
2 weeks.
The Chairman. How much wages did you receive ?
Mr. MoCrea. Why, I was receiving $45 a month and my main-
tenance.
The Chairman. And what would you do in the wintertime?
Mr. McCbea. Why, in the wintertime I usually work in restau-
rants, when I could get a job like that, but the last couple of win-
ters I really have not been doing much of anything except just pick-
ing up odd work.
The Chairman. The last large city you visited was Baltimore, was
it not?
Mr. McCrea. Yes, sir; it was — Baltimore.
The Chairman. Did you try to get work there ?
NO JOB in BALTIMORE
Mr. McCrea. Yes ; I did, but I did not have any success for the
simple reason I did not have any place to stay in Baltimore and was
compelled to leave.
The Chairman. How many places did you visit in search of work ?
^ Mr. McCrea. Wliy, I visited quite a number of restaurants in Bal-
timore, and a couple of different hotels, that is all.
The Chairman. Did you ever register with any State employment
ofl5ce?
Mr. McCrea. Yes, sir ; the New York State Employment Office.
The Chairman. With what result?
Mr. McCrea. None whatsoever. That was 2 years ago.
The Chairman. In your travels throughout the 43 States, did you
meet many people like yourself?
Mr. McCrea. Yes, sir; I met thousands of them and they are really
just about the same way as I am ; they are willing to work, and there
are a lot of them that can secure work, but they are not able to
finance themselves until they get it.
The Chairman. You found people, I suppose, who had been dried
out on the farms and were going to other States looking for work ?
Mr. McCrea. Yes, sir; lots of them.
The Chairman. Lots of them?
Mr. McCrea. Quite a few of them.
The Chairman. And who traveled over the highways?
Mr. McCrea. Yes.
3612 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The Chairman. Where did those people stop — in these camps?
Mr. McCrea, Why, they usually stopped at the camps. You
mean the transient camps, when they were operating?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. McCrjea. Why, yes; they did. They came in family groups
and, of course, the transient camps put them in apartments, furnished
them with their own apartment and, of course, with good food and
clothing, and the wife was required to work a few hours each day.
The Chairman. Did you meet up with any people like yourself,
who were hitch-hiking?
Mr. McCrea. Yes, sir; I did — quite a few, all over the country.
The Chairman. Did you have any difficulty in securing rides?
Mr. McCrea. Why, not so much. That is, if a person keeps cleaned
up and halfway decent in appearance, they don't have much trouble.
Otherwise, if you are not dressed up, it is pretty hard, that is if you
look shabby.
The Chairman. Where did you learn to be a cook?
Mr. McCrea, Why, up in this summer camp, the first summer.
The Chairman. Are you a pretty good cook?
Mr. McCrea. Why, just as a second cook, just an assistant to the
chef. Then I have done short-order work.
The Chairman. Have you any brothers and sisters ?
Mr. McCrea. I have one brother, who is married. I have one
sister, who is married. My brother lives up at Batavia, N. Y., and
my sister lives over in England.
The Chairman. What do you intend to do — remain here in Wash-
ington ?
MUST CONTINUE MOVING
Mr. McCrea. Why, I would like to stay here; if I figured I could
find a job that would give me a substantial salary to live on, I
would be willing to settle down and stay; otherwise I will just have
to keep going until I do find something where I can settle down.
The Chairman. In other words, there comes a time with you, like
with other American citizens, where you cannot get employment at
home, why, you move ; you ^et out ? _
Mr. McCrea. Wliy, yes, sir. Of course, in my case, it was a little
bit different. I was really compelled to move, on account of my
stepfather, who was very hard to get along with and we were quar-
reling all of the time, so I just left.
The Chairman. Have you lived long enough, Mr. McCrea, in any
one State to be eligible for relief ?
Mr. McCrea. Why, just Ohio, when I was in Youngstown, Ohio.
The Chairman. Did you apply for relief there?
Mr. McCrea. No sir; I did not.
The Chairman. If there are no further questions, thank you very
much, Mr. McCrea.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3613
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROBERTA C. WILLIAMS, STAFF ASSOCIATE OF
THE NATIONAL TRAVELERS' AID ASSOCIATION
Mr. Curtis. Mrs. Williams, if you will, please give your full name
to the reporter.
Mrs. Williams. Roberta C. Williams.
Mr. Curtis. And what is your position ?
Mrs. Williams. I am staif associate of the National Travelers'
Aid Association.
Mr. Curtis. Where are you located ?
Mrs. Williams. New York City is our headquarters; our office
is there.
Mr. Curtis. Mrs. Williams, we have just received your state-
ment. I have not had an opportunity to read it. It will be intro-
duced into the record at this point.
(The statement and a supplement are as follows :)
STATEMENT OF ROBERTA C. WILLIAMS, STAFF ASSOCIATE, NATIONAL
TRAVELERS' AID ASSOCIATION
I uuderstaud from previous hearings and your interest that you appreciate
the problems of migratory workers and I do not need to recall to the com-
mittee the problems that confront a great army of individuals, uprooted from
their homes for reasons beyond their control. Someone has recently said
that we cannot argue vs^ith droughts, floods, hurricanes, and tanks. Perhaps
not, but we have been greatly concerned in the last few months about problems
arising from the movement of people on defense jobs. It is my particular duty,
in connection with my work, to visit the following States : Virginia, North Caro-
lina, South Carolina, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mis-
sissippi. Naturally I have seen first-hand problems in which I believe your com-
mittee will be interested.
ACUTE PROBLEM AT CAMP BLANDING
I hope you will pardon this first-hand information, somewhat personalized,
telling what I saw near Camp Blanding. On November 16 we received an emer-
gency telephone call from the Travelers' Aid Society in Jacksonville, Fla., ask-
ing for help, and on Monday, November 18, we arrivied on the scene. We found
located in the wooded area across from Camp Blanding and the construc-
tion company's offices a migrant group estimated to be 3,000 in number. Men,
youthful boys, and entire families, inspired with the hope of work and big
money, had traveled to this defense activity and for the lack of any possible
living facilities had taken up temporary abode in the wooded area. With only
trees for protection, some slept in ramshackled cars, others in shacks of pine
bows and still a greater number in the open with only a blanket to protect
them from the 22° weather. With no sanitation facilities they moved from
one section to the other as conditions became unbearable. Water was carried
from a lake one-half mile distant. Smoldering fires, a dreaded hazard, served
for out-of-door cooking pui'poses for those fortunate enough to have food to
cook.
WOEK PEOJECTS ADMINISTRATION DROPPED DESTITUTE MAN
These migratory workers were headlined in the newspapers "migrants go where-
ever jobs are, and suffer everywhere." One man from Georgia, with a thick, hoarse
voice who hitchhiked his way from the camp to Jacksonville, asked travelers'
aid to advance meals and lodging for a week and transportation to and from the
camp 47 miles away. He had left his elderly mother and father in Georgia in dire
circumstances. They were counting upon him to work and bring home money.
Their only income for months had been from his scant W. P. A. earnings, and he
3Q14 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
had been cut off from this by routine months ago and had nothing more. Ill and
discouraged, he wondered how he could hold out and work 10 days before he would
receive his pay. Many of these migratory workers had been employed by the con-
struction company but could not receive pay for 10 days. In urgent need of funds
for food, they worked 3 days, gave up their job, and received their pay, then stood
in line again to be rehired. One of the men remarked, "If one believes these people
do not want work, they should see the lines out from the construction company's
employment oflSce." Our Georgia man was an excellent example, for he had stood
in a line of 800 white and colored men for 3 days before he reached the employ-
ment window; had slept out 4 nights, and was now almost too hungry and ex-
hausted to continue unless someone came to his aid. The situation surrounding
Camp Blanding was more acute than that in some other communities. I have
seen the situation in Fayetteville, N. C, and Norfolk, Va. Another of our staff
associates has witnessed the problems in Charleston, S. C, and we have some first-
hand information on conditions in Charlestown, Ind.
TWO TYPES OF WORKE3JS ON MARCH
The workers on the march who need to be considered fall into two main groups,
civilian employees and military and naval personnel. The civilian employees com-
prise two groups which need to be separately considered and planned for.
First, those permanently employed in defense industries and navy yards. This
group may be expected to continue in employment for the "duration," and the
community problem is that of bringing them in touch with adequate community
facilities similar to those used and required by residents, such as adequate hous-
ing, employment, educational, recreational, and health resources.
Second, is the group employed in emergency construction of defense plants or
army camps. This group stays in a community a relatively short period of time.
They come in, complete the construction, usually on a rush program, and then are
discharged.
The needs of these people while they are in the community are similar to those
of the other group, but the problem faced by the community in providing tem-
porary housing and related facilities for large numbers is one that requires par-
ticular thought. Likewise, the responsibility for planning for the demobilization
of those needing to leave a community after a short period of residence and, when
a defense job is completed, their subsequent employment and their transportation
to the next place of employment should be anticipated immediately and appro-
priate machinery devised to meet this need. For example, what will become of the
16,000 workers who are employed in constructing a smokeless-powder plant in
Charlestown, Ind., when the construction job is finished on December 15? Inci-
dentally, when the plant is completed, from 9,000 to 14,000 workers suitable to
meet the plant's requirements will be coming in to constitute the operating force.
This means that there will be 16,000 who must be moved to another new com-
munity and who will be rapidly replaced at the rate of 14,000 to be permanently
located and employed.
We recognize the Tolan committee's primary interest in the movement of mi-
gratory workers, but closely related is the movement of all kinds of people in this
defense. When demobilization comes, we will have nonresidency greater than
ever before. I would like to call the committee's attention to the additional group
of those people now moving to get jobs in defense industries and navy yards.
It is recognized that there is an immediate demand for skilled and unskilled
workers, without necessai-y time for preparation for proper planning. Real and
perplexing problems are bound to emerge and others continue on. People hear of
jobs, but there is no available information regarding the number of workers
needed and the particular skills required. Therefore, many go spurred by the
hope of employment and encouraged by newspai)er accounts and radio appeals for
labor. Many of tliem travel in old wornout cars, others hitchhike and become
stranded en route. Still others are faced with problems when there is a delay in
making application for employment.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3615
MANY APPLICANTS REJECTED
Then there is a group of those applying who are necessarily rejected. For
example, the commandant in charge of civilian employment at the Charleston
Navy Yard estimated that each day five or six out-of-town persons are rejected
at the employment office. Even if eligible for employment, there is a consid-
erable group that fail to pass the rigid physical examination. If these people
are from another city a problem is created for them and for the community
particularly because many of these communities are small and aside from the
defense activities they offer no other opportunity for exployment.
With regard to persons employed in emergency construction jobs, the experi-
ence is likely to be repeated as soon as the rush job is ended. So far we
have observed no planned program for demobilization and transferring con-
struction groups from one project which is ended in a locality to a new project
in another section of the country.
In many cases the communities in which these defense activities are being
set up are small and not equipped, and are unorganized from the standpoint
of social services; they have not been able to anticipate and plan for the
problems which automatically arise in a community with this influx and
development. Moreover, in many of these communities there are no financial
resources available locally for meeting problems which would be equal in
extent to those of a much larger city.
EECRTJIT REJECTIONS ADD TO PROBLEMS
Those grouped under military personnel may not be so directly of interest
to this committee but in considering the impact of moving people related to
the defense program they are a part of the picture. Tliey are a problem in
these ways:
Young boys coming in to enlist are often not eligible and have to wait for
examinations and arrangements. For instance, a young lad from a nearby
State, turned down for enlistment because of dental condition, came to Atlanta
to have this condition corrected. This was done but he was finally rejected
because of poor eyesight.
A report that colored enlistments would be centralized in Chicago brought
to the Travelers Aid Society a large number of colored boys rejected for
enlistment because of physical disability or for the reason that they were
under age.
Six cases of Army recruits in need of meals and lodging, who had become
stranded because of wrong schedules, were reported in one day by one of our
societies.
Then there is a real civilian problem related to military personnel. Families,
relatives, and friends of the men at camps are moving into communities con-
tiguous to camps. They need direction, information, and general assistance
when unanticipated problems arise.
For example, one Sunday in November when there were only 20,000 men at
Camp Dix, visitors arrived there in 35,000 automobiles and this was, of course,
before the induction of the selective service group.
This brings out again the necessity of adequate housing, health, educational
and recreational facilities, and also emphasizes a need for some central clear-
ing place where information and general assistance can be given when un-
foreseen problems arise so that a chronic condition does not continue in a
community.
During the last war the problems of civilians coming in to be near their
men at camps constituted a major problem which required planning. The
increase in transportation facilities during the past 23 years, plus the greater
willingness of people to travel and the increased mobility of our population,
indicate that this problem will assume much greater proportions now.
EMERGENCIES SHOULD BE ANTICIPATED
Insofar as it is possible to anticipate problems and to know from experience
what may be expected to occur it is important for appropriate plans to be made
3616
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
in advance to meet such emergencies. Some of the acutely distressing situa-
tions that we have observed in recent weeks might easily have been anticipated
and in this manner would have reduced suffering to the people, the cost in
clearing up the situation and health menace to the community. The responsi-
bility for so planning would seem to rest upon all of us, both public officials
and public agencies, private social agencies, and citizens themselves.
The defense program is for the Nation as a whole, and, therefore, it em-
braces all people everywhere within the Nation ; all individuals, all institutions,
and all communities. ^ A small community that just happens by chance to bear
the brunt of expansion in the locality should be helped by the Nation as a
whole in meeting the needs that arise because of a defense program for the
Nation as a whole.
I am sure that I do not need to emphasize to your committee the acute-
ness of problems arising because of a shifting population. If we could accept
responsibility for not being taken by surprise, for facing the inevitable nature
of certain problems and profit by past experiences, and use the many avail-
able resources, it would indeed be splendid. To this end, may I offer these
recommendations: ^, . ^. .
(1) That the Employment Service, Federal, and State, so gear their activi-
ties that there will be a routing of employees to places where needed and a
reduction of aimless job seeking, including plans for demobilization and trans-
ferral of workers from one job to another.
(2) That the United States Public Health Service with the State and local
public health services concern itself with the protection of community sani-
tation and health and make provision for health services to ill persons regard-
less of settlement.
(3) That since the national aspects of these problems require that new
communities should have assistance from national agencies, both public and
private, including the Federal Government, a community program of social
service be set up to meet the specific problems and needs arising. Older com-
munities in which expansion becomes necessary will need similar help.
(4) That since present restrictions and inconsistencies of settlement laws
will work untold hardships upon these workers when the defense program is
ended, attention be drawn to the matter of settlement laws possibly waiving
all settlement requirements throughout the country.
NATIONAL TRAVELERS AID ASSOCIATION (SUPPLEMENTAL)
Summary of Replies Received to Questionnaire on Defense Activities
As reported by Travelers Aid Societies in 70 communities in response to a ques-
tionnaire from the National Travelers Aid Association in October 1940
We have already received replies from 70 Travelers' Aid Societies to the ques-
tionnaire on defense activities which went to societies in October. According
to the information contained in these answers, societies in the following cities
will be concerned with four phases of defense — Army, Navy, air, and indus-
trial activities : Atlanta, Boston, Bridgeport, Chicago, Hartford, Miami, Oakland,
Philadelphia, Roanoke, Seattle, Tacoma, Toledo, and Washington, D. C.
The following cities report large Army, air, and industrial, but no Navy
activities: Chattanooga, Cincinnati, Columbus, Houston, Kansas City, Omaha,
Schenectady, and Springfield, Mass.
The following cities, in addition, report large industrial development: Balti-
more, Dallas, Indianapolis, Long Beach, Memphis, Nashville, New Orleans,
Pittsburgh, and Wilmington, Del.
There will be large Army centers at Fort Dix, N. J., Fort Bragg, N. C, Camp
Blanding, Fla., and Fort Ord, Calif. In none of these places is there an
organized travelers' aid society.
To date, Travelers' Aid has been called in for advice at Fort Dix and Camp
Blanding and a field visit has been made to Fort Bragg.
From the 70 returned questionnaires the enclosed list of problems emerges.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3617
Examples of Special Problems Abising in Communities as a Result of
Population Movt:ment Related to Defense Activities
1. Inadequacy of housing facilities :
(a) For civilian workers.
(6) For single men and women who desire rooms.
(c) For single men and young married couples who desire light-housekeeping
apartments. ^ ^
(d) Especially for colored.
(e) For young girls. "The Young Women's Christian Association is filled
and the transient committee is being revived to consider the problem "
(/) For officers' families. "Rents too high for allowance of Army personnel "
(g) For Army and Navy families in lower-income groups (in Seattle) who
are not permitted to accompany men to Alaska.
2. Need for—
(a) "One night's lodging before going out to enroll in aviation school"
(6) More information regarding finding rooms, etc., because of limited hous-
ing facilities.
(c) Workers' finding quarters in nearby communities because of housing
shortage.
id) Officers' finding housing in cities 75 and 90 miles distant from fort, driv-
ing round-trip daily.
"Government housing units being built to accommodate additional workers
but do not keep abreast of the demands." *
"Curtiss-Wright project is developing its own housing plans."
"The real-estate board is making a housing survey."
" bas vacancies of about 4 percent, and workers finding quarters in
nearby communities. City is on the alert to detect unfair rentals."
"Rents are high and land has been bought up by speculators at such a high
price that the Government cannot make any headway with Government
housing."
health
3. Inadequacy of health facilities.
2. No health facilities for nonresidents except for emergency cases.
3. No provision made for nonresidents unable to pay for medical care.
SCHOOLS AND RECREATION
1. Inadequacy of school facilities.
2. Requests received from Army officers' wives regarding schools and cul-
tural opportunities.
3. "We have had several boys who have expended from $300 to $500 to come
to and enroll in a 'phony' school to prepare for work in the defense
industries. Apparently a whole series of rackets involving schools, used auto-
mobiles, and hotels is developing, with outposts in the eastern and middle western
cities."
SERVICES RELATED TO ENLISTMENTS, ENROLLMENTS, AND DEFENSE EMPLOYMENT
1. Skilled workers hitchhiking in because of reported available jobs. For
example, a man who had passed his civil-service examination and had been
ordered to report to a certain navy yard immediately was unable to raise
transportation money. He started hitchhiking but found he could not reach
his destination in time. Travelers' Aid Society assisted him in raising the money
from his own resources.
2. Transportation home for those unable to find employment or who fail the
physical examination for employment. For example, a boy from a nearby State
turned down for enlistment because of a dental condition came to Atlanta to
have this condition corrected. This was done but he was finally rejected
because of poor eyesight.
3618 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
3. Requests for help in transferring Army and Navy families en route through
Chicago.
4. Cooperation with the Civil Aeronautics Authority in arranging trans-
portation of Army and Navy families to Alaska (Seattle Travelers' Aid Society).
5. Boys coming to enlist often are not eligible or have to wait for examina-
tion and arrangements. One travelers' aid society has assumed care of boys
under 21 while local recruiting officer sends papers to parents for signature.
A report that colored enlistments would be centralized in Chicago brought to
the travelers aid society a number of colored boys, rejected for enlistment
because of physical disability or age.
6. Four men referred to travelers aid society by the Navy recruiting office
had either spent the money allotted to them for transportation and food while
on leave, or had lost their tickets or money, or had had their possessions
stolen.
Temporary jobs for persons awaiting jobs in defense industries.
"Tiding over" until the first pay check.
Eleven families in 1 day who had come from the flooded areas of Virginia to
seek work in the powder plant near Roanoke were without work and were
stranded in Roanoke.
7. Six cases of Army recruits in need of meals and lodging who had become
stranded either because of wrong schedules (which were not their fault) or
their money or tickets were lost or stolen.
(The naval office has not funds or facilities to help men even when the cir-
cumstances are beyond the men's control. The Army has certain facilities
which can be used in cases like these. )
8. Young soldiers from the air base stranded on Saturday nights.
SERVICES REIATED TO FAMILIES OR FRIENDS
1. A young woman coming to visit her sweetheart at the fort. Service
included verifying fact that he was there, obtaining information as to where
and when they could meet, and securing bus schedule to fort.
2. The wife of a private, stranded en route to her husband (against Army
regulations) at the nearby fort.
3. Within 1 week three women asked for help, admitting that they had
followed the troops into town.
4. Mr. D., an experienced machinist, 38, and his wife, 29, with five children
(1 to 7 years) immigrated to Hartford due to Mr. D.'s suspension of 30 days
from work (defense work in another State) because he had stayed home from
work 1 week to care for his sick wife. They arrived with two flat tires and a
few cents and were directed to a tourist camp on the outskirts of town. They
were helped with food by friendly neighbors. The wife's health became worse.
Mr. D. went to town and was referred to the travelers' aid society by a local
church. The case was referred to a social worker in the community where they
were domiciled, with the request for immediate medical care. The man was
given the necessary information about employment, localities, etc., and he left
travelers' aid with a sense of relief and courage. The wife was sent to a
hospital. Two weeks later Mr. D. telephoned and said he had a good job, his
wife had returned from the hospital, and his wife's mother had come to stay
until the wife was well enough to care for the family. "Everything is going
well and I sure do thank travelers' aid," was the happy conclusion.
5. Increase in requests for information, direction, and referral services.
Information for soldiers on furlough.
Information in regard to restaurants.
Information regarding cashing checks.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROBERTA C. WILLIAMS— Resumed
Mr. Curtis. The committee would be pleased if you would just
proceed in your own way to discuss the matter.
Mrs. Williams, for the record, I want to ask a few questions con-
cerning Camp Blanding. Just where is it located ?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3619
Mrs. Williams. It is located southwest of Jacksonville, Fla., 47
miles distant. It is near two towns, Stark and Palatka.
Mr. CuKTis. How large are those towns?
Mrs. Williams. Stark is a town of 1,50;) population, and the
population of Palatka is estimated at 2,500.
Mr. Curtis. How many jobs were available at Camp Blanding?
Mrs. AViLLiAMS. There were 19,400 employed, and they still needed
more workers.
Mr. Curtis. Approximately, how many people could be employed
at Camp Blanding?
Mrs. Williams. I do not have that number.
Mr. Curtis. How many people arrived there seeking jobs?
CAMP builders live IN WOODS
Mrs. Williams. There were 3,000 estimated to be living there
in the woods.
Mr. Curtis. They would not all get jobs, would they?
Mrs. Williams. 'Most of them were employed. I would say that
three-fourths of them had received employment.
Mr. Curtis. Are they confronted with the problem of having
more people there than can be taken care of ?
Mrs. WiLLix\MS. Yes. sir. Every week new people are coming in
taking the place of others who failed during the time they were
there to get jobs; so there was a certain change in the population
of migrants living there in the woods during the time they were
waiting for work.
Mr. Curtis. This suggestion has been made in regard to the de-
fense construction program, that the employment of persons ex-
cept, perhaps, those who reside within a reasonable distance of the
construction work, be placed in the hands of the United States Em-
ployment Service, and that it be so handled that the worker w^ould
make application for work at his home, or where he lives, and then
seek clearance through the Employment Service. He would then
proceed to the point where he could be put to work. It would not be
a question of prohibiting people from traveling while seeking work,
but it would merely change the place where they applied for jobs
from the point of construction to the place where they lived. The
information as to the work available would be spread tliroughout the
length and breadth of _ the country, and if they wanted employment
in the defense industries, they would be advised that their applica-
tions must be put in where they reside, and not where the job is
located. Now, from your experience with the Travelers' Aid Society,
would you approve such a general id^ea as that ?
Mrs. Williams. I think that it would work. If some mechanical
means could be devised by which that information could be quickly
routed to the employment services, with the people directed to apply
in their own localities, and if they would give the employment
agencies information as to the number of persons available, and the
particular skills available, these agencies would know where to
direct them to go, and I think that would help a great deal.
260370 — 41 — pt. 0-
3Q20 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Curtis. Were there any obvious errors of management on
the part of the contractor or of the Government itself in the Camp
Blanding situation?
BLANDING WORKERS COMMUTE 4 7 MILES
Mrs. Williams. The construction company had 19,400 persons em-
ployed, and they had barracks at the camp site for only 2,000. Many
of them were going back and forth to Jacksonville, or any place where
they could get housing, but certainly the housing facilities did not
exist on the site of Camp Blanding for more than 2,000 employees.
They needed more than 19,000. One day they stated that they had
almost the peak of employment, because they were so concerned about
this problem that they temporarily closed the employment office.
However, I understand that it was reopened.
Mr. Curtis. Wliere did the contractor expect these people to live?
Mrs. Williams. I am sure I cannot answer that. There were a few
housekeeping rooms available in Jacksonville, but that was 47 miles
away, and the matter of transportation was involved. They did not
seem to have had any plan when they started, and there was a traffic
hazard in going to and from the camp.
Mr. Curtis. This is in a more or less remote area ?
Mrs. Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. Is there a highway leading to it?
Mrs. Williams. Yes, sir ; there is a paved highway, but there is only
one lane coming and one going.
Mr. Curtis. Wliat kind of camp is this?
Mrs. Williams. It is a camp that they are constructing for the train-
ing of soldiers. Those people are coming in. One unit is the Forty-
third Division, and I think the other is the Twenty-first Division.
would abolish settle]mext laws
Mr. Curtis. I am interested in the recommendations that you have-
made. We have had two schools of thought represented in the sugges-
tions that have been made to this committee on the subject of settlement
laws. One group believes in uniform State settlement laws, while-
the other would abolish settlement laws altogether. Do you favor the-
abolition of settlement laws?
Mrs. Williams. Yes. sir; I think they should be abolished for the-
purposes of relief, because I think that if a person who arrives in a
community is in need, something should be done about it. Wlien you
have to gear yourself up through two or three States, where you may
have resources or residence, the situation is made difficult. In the
long run, except in one or two outstanding States, where they have a
terrific increase in the number of transients, there would be no dif-
ference, because most of them have people going out as well as people-
coming in.
Mr. Curtis. You think that a migrant coming into the State of Cali-
fornia should not be denied relief in California because he has not-
established residence there?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3621
Mrs. Williams. Generally speaking, I think so, but I do not know
what California would think about it, because I understand they have
a greater number of migrants than any other State.
Mr. Curtis. You feel, however, that it would make the handling
of relief easier?
Mrs. Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. What do you think about the long-time effect of that ?
Do you think it would increase the wanderings of destitute people,
or not ?
Mrs. Williams. No, sir ; I do not see why it would.
Mr. Curtis. You do not adhere to the theory that someone who
is faced with misfortune or has lost his job or home would find it
better to stay where he is or where he is known and has been for
a long time proving his worthiness ?
Mrs. Williams. I think that depends entirely on how the person
himself feels. Each individual can better tell how he feels about
those circumstances than someone else.
Mr. Curtis. If all settlement laws were abolished, do you think
that some States would have a tremendous influx of people that could
never be assimilated because of climatic conditions or the like?
^ Mrs. Williams. I do not think so, except, perhaps, in the cases of
California and Florida. They might have a larger number than they
would know what to do with. However, they have them anyway.
Mr. Curtis. Let us consider that for a moment : Let us take the case
of an individual who is not quite destitute but who has been working
around and is just about getting along. Now, such a person knows
that under the present system if he ventures away from home and
meets with misfortune, he is homeless and may not secure aid ; and he
may hang on to what he has, even though it is not very good or very
profitable. That is because he would have a fear that he would be
in difficulty thousands of miles from home. He will bear in mind that
he will be destitute and not eligible for aid. Now, if you were to re-
move that situation or that danger many people might go to some
place in the South, where they have warm weather and sunshine,
where they might be able to dig up a few days or a few weeks work
during cold weather in the North. They would have no fear that
they would be unable to qualify for aid the same as any individual who
has lived there for 20 years. It seems to me that would encourage
them to start out.
Mrs. Williams. I do not believe it would cause more to do that
than are doing it at the present time. They see the hardships, dan-
gers, and insecurity, and they would not go if they had no reason
to believe that their prospects would be better at the end of the journey.
Wlien they arrive in a community they might be helped with what
resources "they have themselves. They go with the hope of getting
work, and they may get temporary work, and with the resources they
have on hand, some plan might be worked out whereby they may do
better.
NECESSITY FORCES MIGRATION
Mr. Curtis. I am not inclined to think harshly of these people, but
I want to go into this matter thoroughly. I share the view that the
3522 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
chairman has so frequently expressed, that people move on because
they have to move, or because necessity forces them. That is true, but
I do not think we should lose sight of the fact tliat many of these
people, when they move on, meet with more hunger and more abuse
and more ill health than if they had remained where they were.
Once they become migrants, they suffer more than they would if they
were back home where they have friends, neighbors, church connec-
tions, and other things that hold people together in a community.
I do not think it would be a wise thing to encourage people to break
away from those home conditions.
Mrs. Williams. Where they would be going into a State or com-
munity, they would not necessarily be going to secure some kind of
help that they could get in their own community. They might be
going in the hope of securing employment, or improved employment,
or some other related resource that would help them. I do not think
they would go because they would be eligible in other States for
benefits.
The Chairman. Mrs. Williams, your statement has been made a
part of the record. Do you want to offer that map ?
Mrs. Williams. This map shows the Army, Navy, air, and indus-
trial locations, or the major ones. This information has come
through the visits of our society and 70 other travel-aid societies
located in these defense areas.
The Chairman. It may be marked as an exhibit and filed with the
committee.
(The map referred to was duly marked and filed with the com-
mittee.)
The Chairman. Mrs. Williams, I think your recommendations are
very interesting, and I want to say to you that you have submitted
a very fine statement. Now, it makes very little difference what pre-
conceived notions we have about migration in the United States; it
has always been and always will be present.
Mrs. Williams, Absolutely ; yes, sir.
SELF-PRESERVATION BIG FACTOR
The Chairinian. What I am concerned with are the good Amer-
ican citizens who have to leave their farms and their home status on
account of circumstances over which they have no control. I know
it is nice to have church connections and friends, but there comes a
time in their lives when the law of self-preservation must prevail
and they must leave. For instance, the reduction of the W. P. A.
appropriation at the last session caused 800,000 people to be laid off.
Now, take a man like that. Of course, he would like to stay at home ;
he would like to remain in his home city, but he has no job, and
cannot get relief. "Wliat else can he do but leave? I do not know
what recommendation the committee will make, but we certainly
could improve the condition now existing. It could not be worse.
Mrs. Williams. That is true.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3623
The Chaieman. There are millions of homeless people who are
citizens of the United States under the Constitution. They run up
against a lot of barriers whenever they attempt to cross State lines.
There should be at the border or at some place in the States a point
at which these migrating American citizens can get some real in-
formation. They are not getting it now. Down South there are
private employment agencies that promise them jobs in the State.
In some States, as in Arizona and California, they have elaborate
offices, with fine officers in charge, for the inspection of fruit pests
that are not permitted to cross the State lines. I think we should
address ourselves to that problem of providing reliable information
to these people.
Mr. Curtis. At what points would you give the information.
Mrs. Williams. I think when people move around looking for jobs,
and so forth, this information should be given through the employ-
ment services in the communities, through publicity, and advising
people where to go if they are out of work. It should be done at the
beginning, before they leave their communities.
Mr. Curtis. If it is at the border of the State, and is discouraging
information, it would mean that some other State would get the
migrants.
Mrs. Williams. They should be given the information at the
beginning of the journey.
Mr. Sparkman. In connection with this chart you have there, does
it show the location of Army posts ?
Mrs. Williams. The location of the Army posts is shown in red;
the location of the Navy posts is shown in blue; the green indicates
the location of the air bases, and the orange indicates the location of
industrial plants, like smokeless powder plants, and so forth.^
The Chairman. If there is nothing further, we thank you very
much for your statement.
TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN CARRUTHERS, PASADENA, CALIF.
The Chairman. Dr. Carruthers, I understand you desire to make
a brief statement to the committee, and we will be only too glad to
hear you at this time.
Will you state your full name and address ?
Dr. Carruthers. My name is Kev. John Carruthers; my address
is 1015 Prospect Boulevard, Pasadena, Calif.
The Chairman. You may proceed.
Dr. Carruthers. Mr. Chairman, I am here in connection with the
national-service problems of the National Presbyterian Church,
which is the Covenant-First Presbyterian Church, at Connecticut
Avenue and N Street.
That church has been designated by the General Assembly of the
Presbyterian Church in the United States to be a so-called cathedral
church, representing about 2,000,000 people. This is the third time
I have been associated with this church in 25 years.
Filed with the committee and not printed.
Qg24 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The interests of the Presbyterians in the national emergency of
total spiritual defense includes the question before this committee,
and I have volunteered to ask to be heard here, largely because of
the stimulation that Mr. Collins and some of the other members of
the survey have provided. Also, I have been asked to give a series
of lectures in the country on this particular question, and I have been
given some of the literature.
At first, let me state that I believe the United States owes this
committee a great debt for the sincere way in which they have at-
tempted to present and deal with a problem very few people know
much about, and, unfortunately, that very few church people care
much about.
At the same time that I am speaking in terms of commendation
let me also speak in terms of mild condemnation of the fact that the
church has been blind on this question, and that goes also for the
Catholic church and the Jewish church and churches of all denomi-
nations.
It is distinctly the spiritual problem of the church, this great ques-
tion of the stranger within our midst.
I feel that I might make one or two constructive suggestions, and
I only want to volunteer these suggestions because I want you to be
encouraged.
You have no idea how ready the churches are to take this ball if
you will only throw it over to them in some kind of a way. But
there is a great deal of education that will have to be done to get
tliem to get into the team play and run with the ball.
I make the suggestion, first, that if it is possible, we hold a con-
vocation in Washington under the auspices of all churches in the
United States, under all of the official members of all denominations,
to lay upon them the spiritual obligation to dedicate their facilities,
their institutions, their men, and their social-science and home-service
organizations to this problem.
URGES CONTINUAXCE OF MIGRATION COMMITTEE
Second, I would like to urge the continuation of this committee
in some form. You have just scratched the surface on this question.
Third, I would like to make the more practical and immediate
suggestion, that those ministers in Washington, D. C, who are listed
and appointed by their denominations to be ministers of national
churches such as the Baptist, the Methodist, the Catholic, and the
Presbyterian, be formed into a very small committee of about a dozen
to take under advisement the policy and procedure that would seem
to me most practical in connection with this problem, so that this
hearing will not blow up with just a lot of data printed in the old
Congressional Record, good as it is, and put the inspiration of your
help into it.
I would like to see your congressional committee and associates
move into the churches"^ of Washington and open the eyes that are
blind on this subject.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3625
The Chairman. Doctor, the committee seems to be unanimous in the
expression of the thought that yours is the first suggestion of the
spiritual connection of this whole migrant movement, in reference
to the stranger within our gates.
Dr. Carruthers. This is our problem.
The Chairman. In other words, there were 4 million migrants
last year going from State to State, Stateless and homeless.
Dr. Carruthers. And churchless.
The Chairman. And under the Constitution they are citizens of
the 48 States, and not just of their own States.
Dr. Carruthers. That is right.
The Chairman. But barriers have been raised against them, just
as if the 48 States were 48 nations.
Dr. Carruthers. It is criminal.
The Chairman. Certainly, you cannot stop their moving about;
this is their country.
Dr. Carruthers. Certainly.
The Chairman. We cannot keep on kicking them around without
having that action strike at the morale of our country.
Dr. Carruthers. Let me say that this extremely persuasive report
of the lady who just preceded me as a witness before you had good
warmth in it, but after that, where are you going? There are some
things I know, and there ought to be some place in which every com-
munity in every State which has this problem could maintain a kind
of settlement house or cooperative spiritual service center supported
by church and private money so that these people could be taken into
a kind of clinic where they could be given constructive service, and
not throw them out, for instance, into the city of Los Angeles, where
I live, and simply have them thrown to the wolves, but let them go
where they might have some spiritual attention. It might take
months before they could be located.
The Chairman. I think you have hit the nail on the head, because
the heart of the American people is absolutely sound.
Dr. Carruthers. That is right.
The Chairman. But it takes a campaign of education to get over a
movement of this kind.
Dr. Carruthers. Yes ; and we are ready to help you.
The Chairman. In New York and other places where we have been
throughout the country they have this problem. When we were trying
to get this resolution passed in Congress, they said it is a California
problem and not a problem involvintr the whole country.
Dr. Carruthers. It is not at all simply a California problem.
The Chairman. We thank you for your statement and your sug-
gestions, and I think we will take advantage of them.
Dr. Carruthers. I thank you.
Mr. Curtis. I was very much interested in your statement. You said
you might have other suggestions to offer, and I think our record
should ibe open to you so that you may insert those suggestions in your
statement. I am sure the committee will be highly pleased to have you
develop the subject further and give us such other suggestions as you
may have to make within the next 10 days.
3026 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Dr. Carruthers. I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that these re-
marks are entirely spontaneous, and I would like to have a chance to
make some reservations in what I have said, because I would like to
implement my suggestions.^
The Chairman. You will be given that permission.
Dr. Carruthers. I thank you, gentlemen.
The Chairman. The next witness is Mr. Ranch, Acting Commis-
sioner of the Federal AVorks Agency, Work Projects Administration.
TESTIMONY OF FRED R. RATJCH, ACTING COMMISSIONER, FEDERAL
WORKS AGENCY, WORK PROJECTS ADMINISTRATION
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Ranch, will you give the reporter your full name,
your address, and your official capacity.
Mr. Rauch. My name is Fred R. Ranch ; I am Acting Commissioner
of the Work Projects Administration.
Mr. Sparkman. You are Acting Commissioner of the Federal Works
Agency ?
Mr. Rauch. Of the Work Projects Administration.
Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee [reading] :
Migration of Destitute Citizens to Defense Centers
Migration of workers to centers of new industrial activity is changing the
character of the migration problem considerably. During the next few months,
a great deal less will be heard of farm migrations and a great deal more of
the large group of persons moving into centers of greatly increased industrial
activity resulting directly and indirectly from the defense armament program.
Generally speaking, the unskilled worker who is migrating is not finding a
ready market for his labor.
The most striking evidences of migrations appear in connection with defense
operations either in industrial centers or at Army cantonments. The migra-
tions into States create more problems than migrations out of States. Serious
situations have not yet been created where labor leaves an area. However,
the W. P. A. in watching economic trends, has observed substantial migrations
of labor from the States of Alabama, Arkansas, the Dakotas, Georgia, Kansas,
Kentucky, Louisiana, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, Vermont, and Washington
into other States. Obviously the list is incomplete.
This is brought out clearly in examining reports from many States which
report an influx of labor :
Arizona reports its usual type of influx of cotton pickers but it has shown no
appreciable influx as a result of the defense program.
The same situation is reported for Arkansas.
In Florida there is at least the usual seasonal migration of workers who
seek to obtain winter employment in milder climates. The citrus belt also
offers employment opportunities. A very important concentration exists at
Camp Blanding (60 miles southwest of Jacksonville). Approximately 19,000
workers were concentrated in this area according to recent reports received.
There is undoubtedly some inter-State migration into Illinois, although this
has not been described as a serious influx.
Indiana has received workers from Arkansas and Missouri.
In Louisiana a large concenraation of out-of-State workers exists at Camp
Beauregard in the Alexandria area. It has been estimated that a third of
the 16,000 workers have come from adjoining States.
No additional material was received by the committee.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3627
Maryland has received workers from adjoining States, a large part of them
being drawn to the Fort Meade area.
Mississippi shipyards have attracted skilled workers from the northern
States.
New Hampshire rejwrts some movement into the State of workers who liave
come after making specific arrangements for jobs.
Workers are coming into North Carolina from Georgia and South Carolina.
A concentration point is Fort Bragg.
Similarly, in Ohio, workers are coming in from West Virginia and Pennsyl-
vania to seek employment.
The principal concentration points for out-of-State labor in South Carolina
are Fort Jackson near Columbia, and Charleston. At Fort Jackson, approxi-
mately 10,000 persons have been employed, of which over a third have come from
outside the State, principally North Carolina and Georgia. Workers at the
Charleston Navy Yard likewise have come, in some cases, from outside the State.
The turn-over of employment at Fort Jackson is great because of the Inadequate
training and experience of persons who have obtained employment.
In Vermont the Burlington and Fort Ethan Allen areas are attracting out-of-
State labor. The Eastern Shore of Virginia has had a substantial boom in em-
ployment because of defense activities. It has not been possible to estimate how
much of the employment is from out-of-State sources, yet it is believed that a
substantial amount must be of that type.
There are, of course, many shifts in employment within States. In examining
economic trends. Work Projects Administration State organizations advise that
such movements are occurring in connection with defense acivities in California,
Connecticut, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Nevada, New
Jersey Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, and Washington.
New York City reports a shift in the source of out-of-State families coming
into that metropolis. There has formerly been a strong concentration from the
South, but there is a shift to families coming from the Middle and Western
States. This undoubtedly can be explained in part by the increased employment
opportunities in the South.
One of the conditions which is commonly noted is that some of the migrating
families which are seeking work are not destitute. They are frequently poor, and
if they do not find employment quickly, serious need problems will result. How-
ever, the type of migrating family which is appearing in many defense areas is that
which has means of making its migration from the home area to the defense
area. There should be considerable concern as to the dislocation and responsi-
bility for caring for needy families when such booms in employment are over.
LIVING CONDITIONS IN ARE;AS AFFECTED BY MIGRATION OF LABOR
The current migration to Army cantonment construction areas and centers of
defense industry has affected the housing problem of local residents and the new
influx of labor to varying degrees.
Generally speaking, the most thickly populated States, where defense industries
have drawn labor to large industrial centers, report little or no housing difficulties.
The smaller centers of employment are less adequately prepared to meet the
problem, and therefore the burden of housing increases in proportion. In places
where rents have advanced, the burden of higher prices, crowded living condi-
tions, and scarcity of houses, has been felt not so much by the imported labor
group as by the local low-income group. Some of the northeastern States and the
Middle Atlantic Seaboard States feel this most acutely. In many places, steps
have been taken, either through local groups of the Federal Housing Authority, to
remedy this situation.
The mushroom growths in the neighborhood of Army cantonments are a
result of sudden influxes of labor. These influxes have reached startling
proportions, and are in the places where the most serious housing, health, and
sanitation problems are found. Army cantonments are frequently located
near small communities, which are totally unprepared to meet the needs of
the new residents. Housing and restaurant facilities are lacking, unreason-
able prices for poor shelter and food prevail, and workers live in automobiles,
shacks, or other improvised quarters. The sanitation problem is a great
danger to public health.
3628
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Outstanding examples are the housing conditions at the Army post under
construction at Tullahoma, Tenn. Approximately one-half of the 8,000 workers
live within a radius of 30 miles and provide their own transportation. The
i-emainder, who have migrated from other points of the State or other States,
are attempting to live near Tullahoma in tents, automobiles, and barns. Every
hotel rooming house, and private home is filled to capacity. The largest hotel
in the vicinity has established a rate of $90 a month for a single room without
bath and board. The State department of health advises that the sanitary
conditions in the vicinity of the cantonment site and of the town of Tulla-
homa, are very bad. The Work Projects Administration sanitary project has
been enlarged in an attempt to alleviate the condition but because of the
extent of the condition, the situation remains sei-ious.
In Columbia, S. C, there is a great need for additional housing facilities.
However, even though these are provided, the migrants seeking work in Fort
Jackson would probably not benefit from them since new living quarters, with
the exception of low-cost housing under the United States Housing Authority,
are outside the range of the migrants' income. Most of them live in board-
ing houses, tourist and trailer camps, or in automobiles.
Several cities in Texas, among tliem Dallas, Corpus Christi, Galveston, and
Houston report inadequate living conditions. Rents have generally increased.
Many migrants are sleeping in automobiles and trucks, or fenced inclosures
with no roof. Cooking is done along the roadside. Sanitation facilities are
lacking.
Situations similar to those cited above are duplicated in many States. In-
creased efforts are being made by local authorities and contractors to bring
about some improvement. The situation continues to be very serious.
CONCLUSIONS
It is my recommendation that the committee should not overlook the maxi-
mum application of the services of existing Federal agencies in alleviating
the migration problem. An adequate housing program and greater use of
the State employment service as clearing houses for information as to available
jobs are much to be desired.
My recommendations, however, are directed primarily to the Federal services
which have prevented and can do much more to prevent unnecessary migration.
The stamp plan which is often the only assistance given to needy families in rural
areas should be extended. The work program operated by the Work Projects
Administration should continue to provide assistance to needy unemployed work-
ers where they live. The farm-security program should extend, if possible, the
rehabilitation services. Perhaps a combined program of rehabilitation on the
farm with a limited amount of Work Projects Administration work for cash
income could, in a limited period of time, permanently rehabilitate many families.
Such a program would be of relatively low cost compared to the cost which is
going to fall sooner or later upon either the Federal or local governments, or both,
for maintaining needy migrating families which have lost completely their eco-
nomic roots.
TESTIMONY OF FRED R. RAUCH— Resumed
Mr. Sparkman, I have read your statement, Mr. Eauch, which has
been made a part of the record. I would like to ask you a few questions
and have you give us some of the high points of your statement, if you
care to do so.
Were you here when Mrs. Williams was giving her statement ?
Mr. Rauch. No, sir ; I am sorry I missed it.
Mr. Sparkman. In the course of her statement she told us in rather
graphic language of the conditions existing at Camp Blanding, Fla.
I believe you mentioned that in your statement, and you also mentioned
the situation at Camp Tullahoma, in Tennessee. It seems they are com-
parable.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3629
I would like to have you describe those situations, according to the
information you have, and just what work has been done to alleviate
the conditions.
HEAVY MIGRATIONS TO CAMP SITES
Mr. Rauch. At Camp Blanding, Camp Tullahoma, as well as other
places of similar character, there has been a great deal of migration
of skilled and semiskilled construction workers for the purpose of ob-
taining work in the construction of the cantonments. The same thing
is true, I am sure, at Fort Bragg, N. C, and at Camp Beauregard, in
Louisiana.
The chief difficulty seems to be that word goes out that a great many
skilled mechanics are needed and that high wages are being paid for
construction work around the camps. A great many people flock
there. These camps are usually situated close to small towns. It
would be unusual for them to be situated near a large center of popu-
lation.
Housing facilities are limited, and sanitary facilities are limited.
The employment facilities are very limited in comparison with the
great number of people who go to seek work, and it causes a very
distressing condition.
The fact that people go there in large numbers increases the cost of
food, increases the cost of housing facilities that are available, and
causes extremely dangerous sanitary conditions. It seems to me it is
something that should be seriously considered by the committee, in
order, if possible, to do something about it as rapidly as possible.
Mr. Sparkman. Are those conditions for only a short duration of
time, or do you contemplate they will continue for the entire construc-
tion period?
Mr. Rauch. For the most part, as we see it now, the construction
work will be completed early in 1941. Of course, I assume there will
be work continuously going on at those places, and there will be a
continuous stream of people seeking work.
Of course, it is necessary to have persons going to those places to
seek work so they may have the labor necessary to construct the work
that needs to be done. My opinion is that the conditions will get
better the longer the problem is with us.
Mr. Sparkman. Most of these people who become problem people,
I might say — are they skilled or unskilled workmen ?
SKILLED workers MIGRATE
Mr. Rauch. They are all skilled and semiskilled people. We find
very little, however, in connection with the national-defense program
of unskilled people leaving their homes to seek work. For the most
part it is the skilled and semiskilled people who feel they can obtain
work in the construction of the camps.
I have one example I can cite, if you please, at Fort Bragg, in North
Carolina.
There are a considerable number of contractors engaged in the con-
struction of facilities at that camp.
3630 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
There is an employment office down there. The Employment Serv-
ice has been sending requisitions up until recently — I am not sure
whether they have or have not discontinued the practice — they have
been sending requisitions for 2,500 carpenters, and when the carpenters
come down there — people hear of this information through the trade
journals and by word of mouth and in newspaper stories — when these
men go down there, men who profess to be carpenters, they are put out
in what is more or less of a bull pen and told to wait. A contractor's
superintendent may need 15 carpenters, and 1 carpenter superintendent
would go out to this camp and say they need 15 carpenters, and they
will have them come in.
Maybe in another section of the work a contractor would be laying
off 15 carpenters, and they would go back into the waiting line, with
this large group of people waiting for jobs.
We have had several actual experiences where men have come from
70 to 80 miles, men who worked on W. P. A. and who worked out
there.
The policy of W. P. A. is that if there is a job with any decent
circumstances surrounding it, if the pay is about right and the hours
about right and job conditions anywhere near fair, we require workers
to leave W. P. A. to take private work. We have cut people off of
W. P. A. and sent them up there, and we have done this in other like
situations. If they do get the job, then after they work all day they
have found that there is no place within 50 or 60 miles for them to stay.
Mr. Sparkman. W. P. A. has never been able to give employment
to all those who have been certified, has it ?
Mr. Rauch. No, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. About what percentage have they been able to
give employment to, would you say?
Mr. Rauoh. About 65 percent of those who are certified.
Mr. Sparkman. Is that about the average throughout the country ?
Mr. Rauch. That is about the average throughout the country;
3'es, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. I heard the State manager of projects in my State
of Alabama make the statement that 50 percent was the highest for
our particular State.
Mr. Rauoh. Yes, sir; that is in Alabama. Your agricultural con-
ditions there have not been as favorable as they might have been
to the intake situation. In other words, they have certified people
down there pretty freely.
Mr. Sparkman. But they have certified them less, proportionately,
than in other areas?
Mr. Rauoh. That is right.
gravity of post-emergency period
Mr. Sparkman. A good many witnesses who have appeared before
our committee have warned us "of the gravity of the situation which
will exist after the period of emergency defense activity is ended,
and have said that we might expect another big migration at that
time. I wonder what your thoughts are along that line.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3631
Mr. Eatjch. It certainly will present a very serious problem to this
Nation during the post-war time.
I, of course, believe sincerely in a work program, but I believe
the best defense in preparation for that time is the maintenance of
an adequate work program for needy people.
Mr. Sparkman. Certainly we should be contemplating such an
emergency and planning for it.
Mr. Rauch. Yes, sir.
Mr. 8PARKMAN. What has been the general policy of W. P. A.
regarding the shutting down or adjusting of projects to meet the
seasonal demands for farm labor?
Mr. Rauch. It is the fixed policy of W. P. A. to close down any
project, no matter how important the project might be, in order
to permit workers to take jobs in private industry.
Whether it has been just a 1-day job, or a 2-day job, a 1-month
job, or a permanent job, it has been the policy of W. P. A. to require
the workers to go to private jobs when they can get them, and we
will go to any extreme, as far as the closing down of projects is
concerned, to get them to do that.
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, it is the policy of W. P. A. to
regard that activity not as a career industry, but simply as an organi-
zation to furnish work to take care of an emergency ?
Mr. Rauch. That is correct.
Mr. Sparkman. Sometimes we hear complaints of people in rural
areas to the effect that they cannot get help in connection with their
crops, particularly during harvesting time, or, down in my section
of the country in the spring when hoeing time comes, because people
will not leave W. P. A. to take that employment.
Formerly there was some difficulty, was there not, for employees
to get back to work on W. P. A. ?
Mr. Rauch. Yes; at one time there was more difficulty than in the
last 2 or 3 years.
Mr. Sparkman. That has been adjusted over the last couple of
years ?
Mr. Rauch. As a matter of fact, the law provides that workers
who leave W. P. A. to take jobs in private industry and lose their
jobs through no fault of their own, must be restored to their previous
employment status without delay.
WORK projects ADMINISTRATION SHUT-DOWN
Mr. Sparkman. Have you had any shut-downs in projects because
of a lack of skilled labor?
Mr. Rauch. We have had to close down projects in certain areas
because of lack of all types of labor. We have restricted our opera-
tions in certain sections, on the Eastern Shore of Virginia; at Hamp-
ton Roads and Norfolk, the program there has been restricted.
Then at San Diego, Calif., our program has been restricted.
Not far from here, during the apple season, at Winchester, Va.,
we closed down a project in that county so that there would be a
sufficient amount of labor to pick the apple crop.
3032 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
It may be interesting- in this connection for you to know that
W. P. A. investigates thoroughly every complaint we get, even if
it involves only one worker, and the complaint says that this man
refused to leave W. P. A., or the man making the complaint might
say, "I am a farmer, but I have been unable to get help during the
harvest season or the planting season." I want to make it clear
there is not one complaint that is not investigated. But in the past
we have found only one small fraction of 1 percent of the com-
plaints had any validity. The investigations are not in the nature
of a whitewash, but are made in order to obtain the facts. We
do that because we want to be sure that workers on W. P. A. do
not regard W. P. A. as a permanent job.
Mr. Sparkman. Can you give us any idea as to the number of
unskilled workers taken from the W. P. A. by the defense program ?
Mr. Rauch. No, sir. We lose on the average 100,000 persons a
month, who leave W. P. A. voluntarily to go into private industry.
Mr. Sparkman. Over how long a time have you been losing that
number ?
Mr. Rauch. That percentage has been pretty constant over 5
years.
Mr. Sparkman. Has there been any quickening of that since the
defense program started?
Mr. Rauch. No. I think probably there have been more skilled
workers who have left W. P. A. But I am not at all sure that there
has been any greater percentage of unskilled workers that have
left W. P. A.
REFRESHER COURSES FOR WORKERS
Mr. Sparkman. Can you give us any idea to what extent W. P. A.
workers have received refresher courses in vocational training con-
nected with the defense program?
Mr. Rauch. We have at the present time about 29,000 people on
W. P. A. in vocational schools receiving refresher courses. Those
courses last from 4 to 9 or 10 weeks at the outside.
1 have not the current reports, but the number of people who
gain jobs after they have those refresher courses is increasing to
quit« an extent.
Mr. Sparkman. Wliat are the ages of the employees who take
those courses?
Mr. Rauch. We have no age limit. The age of the trainee de-
pends on the requirements of private industry. If we can get a
man on W. P. A. who has been a skilled workman in the past, even
though he is 55 or 60 years old, we try to see that he gets back
into private industry, and we provide for that as quickly as if he
were only 18 or 20 years old. As a matter of fact, we work with
employers right along to obtain that result.
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Rauch, you made reference in your testimony to
shutting down projects in order to take care of seasonal employment
in certain areas, such as areas where there is fruit picking or harvesting.
Wliat procedure, if any, has been undertaken by the local agencies
of W. P. A. in looking after this seasonal employment, in whatever
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3633
line it may be, and to have those people reinstated, so far as the local
district or county officers are concerned ?
Mr. Rauch. Of course, as you know, W. P. A. is decentralized and
operates in more than 3,000 counties in the United States, and our
administrative employees, those people who operate the program and
are responsible for the operation of the program are usually local
people, and they know the employment conditions, and they know
the industrial and agricultural conditions in the county. It is our
policy that they shall keep in touch with those conditions, and if it is
necessary to close a project down, that they shall do it. It is only
necessary for an employer to show that he needs labor in order to have
them close a project.
Mr. Parsons. There has been some complaint in my territory that
I had taken little pains in the last 3 or 4 years to even slightly investi-
gate those conditions, at least.
We have in one county of my district a great deal of fruit. The
orchardmen have complained to me that they could not get W. P. A.
labor to harvest the fruit. The individuals who used to be employed
by them are now working on W. P. A. Wlien I have referred the
matter to W. P. A. officials the statement has been made to me on more
than one occasion that they do not propose to pay W. P. A. wages for
the harvesting of crops or fruit.
IVhat is your requirement and procedure in the local offices with
reference to wages paid and the conditions under which W. P. A.
workers must be furloughed to aid and assist the landlords?
Mr. Rauch. The only requirement W. P. A. has is that the wages
paid are the going wages in that community.
FRUIT GROWERS WANT CHEAP LABOR
We have had complaints from industrial areas and fruit growers that
they could not get W. P. A. workers to harvest their crop, paying a
dollar a day for an 8- or 12-hour day, which is perhaps 50 cents under
the going rate. That is the only situation in which we feel that the con-
tinued operation on a project is justified.
If the wages are the going rate in the community for that particular
type of work we do not feel that we are authorized to make them raise
the wages. If they are the going wages in the community for that
particular type of work, then it may be necessary to close down those
projects.
Mr. Parsons. Ordinarily, in this apple and peach country they pay
the workers on a piece basis. Sometimes, if a worker is the "right kind
of a worker they pay him at a daily, weekly, or hourly rate, which
runs, on the average, at least $2 a day. Of course, that requires that
they work longer than on W. P. A., maybe as long as 10 hours.
Naturally, the operators are critical, in many instances, of W. P. A.
for that reason.
The same thing is true in harvest time, in connection with wheat,
oats, and grass fields. They complain because they cannot get W. P. A.
workers.
3634
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
From my observation, and I think they have done as good a job in
southern Illinois as anywhere else— my observation is that not
enough attention is. paid to those things by the local W. P. A. That
may have been changed in the last 10 days or 2 or 3 weeks.
A fellow working', on W. P. AJ feels, if he leaves to accept' a job in
private employment, when he comes back he will not be able^ to
get his job back on W. P. A. no matter what the wages have been.
Mr. Kauch. I am sorry I do not have with me a copy' of the
instructions, or a bulletin sent out to the States within the last day
or two, to which was attached a statement to the W. P. A. workers
Mr. Parsons. Was that the statement which appeared in the press
yesterday, under Mr. Hunter's authorization?
Mr. Rauch. Yes, sir. I would be pleased to send you a copy of
that statement, with those instructions to the States.
I will also be pleased if you would call to the attention of the State
Administrator or the Washington office, or to my attention, any time
you find there is any apparent reluctance to see that workers go to
private jobs, and I will guarantee it will be investigated promptly,
and appropriate action will be taken.
Mr. Parsons. What is your thought or estimate, if you care to give
it at this time, of your anticipations of the roll for the next fiscal
year with the defense program speeded up as it is?
Mr. Rauch. I am not prepared to make public at this time our
estimates because that would depend upon— for the next fiscal year,
as I understood you to say ?
Mr. Parsons. Well, let me ask you this question first: Will the
appropriation which the Congress has made for the fiscal year ending
June 30, 1941, be sufficient to last until June 30?
work projects administration needs more money
Mr. Rauch. The appropriation, as you will recall, was made with
the provision that it could be expended in 8 months. It will not
have been fully expended in 8 months but it will be necessary to
request a supplemental appropriation in the early session of Congress.
Mr. Parsons. It will depend, of course, upon facts that develop
between now and June 30 as to the contemplated appropriation of
the amount that will take for the next fiscal year.
Mr. Raush. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Has the W. P. A. taken into recognition the migra-
tion problem ; the amount of unemployed workers in certifying those
who w^ere eligible ?
Mr. Rauch. Yes; we have taken it into consideration, and the
W. P. A. is very conscious of the migrant problem, because as you
wiil recall in 1934 and 1935 when the Federal Emergency Relief
Administration, which was the predecessor of the W. P. A., was in
operation, we had a special program for transients and migrants.
While we have no special program for any group at this time,
consideration is given to requests from State administrators for
increases in quota in adjusting the unemployment authorizations,
where the migrants are certified by the local certifying agencies or
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3635
the State relief agency on the projects on which they employ them,
but outside of that there has been no special provision made for
migrants.
Mr. Parsoxs. You are finding, however, that in certain areas
sponsors are unable to furnish further contribution.
Mr. Rauch. That is correct.
Mr. Parsons. In many instances for certain types of projects.
Mr. Rauch. That is correct.
Mr. Parsons. And these people, if you are unable to find work for
them, will have to go back on direct relief in those States?
Mr. Rauch. Yes.
AVORKS PROGRAM HERE TO STAY
Mr. Parsons. Do you think that there will ever be a time when
we will be able to get entirely away from a works program for
unemployed ?
Mr. Rauch. No.
Mr. Parsons. There will either have to be some type of work of
that character or else they will have to be thrown back on direct
relief rolls in the various States.
Mr. Rauch. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. What do you think are the reasons for the great
unemployment and of its continuing in spite of the fact production
in almost every activity is almost at as high a peak as it has ever
been in peacetime of this country?
Mr. Rauch. As a matter of fact, the factory index and business
index is the highest it has ever been in the history of the United
States, and still there are great masses of unemployed. One of the
very important reasons for the continued mass unemployment is
the increase in the labor groups, the increase in the last 10 years
of the number of persons within age limits that are considered
working groups.
Mr. Parsons. Many of them have come from the soil, have they
not, and are not able to rehabilitate themselves?
Mr. Rauch. Many of them have come from the farms. There is
a net increase in the labor supply of about 600,000 people a year;
that is a net increase, of young people coming into the labor market;
a net increase over those who die or leave the labor market because
of old age and incapacity.
Mr. Parsons. And the mass consumption of that increase does not
keep pace with the labor-displacing machinery which makes for mass
production, does it?
Mr. Rauch. That is right ; technological improvements and general
increase in the efficiency and increased mechanism of more work
requires fewer workers than have been required in the past. There
is a combination of circumstances that causes the labor supply to
be much larger now than it has ever been and much larger than is
necessary to produce the normal requirements of the population.
ISIr. Parsons. Do you agree with me in this statement which I have
made many times, that there has never been any discovery that is as
JO — il_pt. !
Og36 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
good for the liiiman body in building character as good okl-fashioned
Mr. Rauch. I certainly agree with you to the fullest extent.
Mr. Parsons. Is that not the thing that has made America great ?
Mr. Rauch. If it is not the sole thing, it certainly has been a very
important factor.
Mr. Parsons. Now, perhaps you will not agree with me on the next
premise, but if we had spent as much time trying to get ourselves
straight about labor-saving machinery as we should we would have
put a lot of these people back to work.
Mr. Rauch. I am not sure that I could agree with you if I under-
stand the question properly. As I understand your question is that
if we would avoid technological improvements then we could have
provided work for a great many more people who are unemployed^
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mr. Rauch, No ; I think it would have been a measure to retard,
in a way, the development of employment.
NEW INX'ENTIONS TO DISPLACE LABOR
Mr. Parsons. At the present time I understand there are a lot of
new inventions already patented, that will further and greatly dis-
place labor, that are 'being held in abeyance, however, because of
present miemployment conditions, and because those operations are
not needed in our national-defense program at this moment.
There are many inventions ready for use now that, if we should
ever become engaged in war, we might use to further displace labor
and increase very greatly our mass production. And eventually, if
we continue at the rate we have been traveling since the beginning
of the World War in 1914 to displace labor, will not the day come
when machines become the masters of men rather than men being the
masters of machines?
Mr. Rauch. No ; I think history has proven otherwise. I am not
an economist but we only have to go back as far as the cotton gin.
When the cotton gin was invented, which was quite a bit before my
time and your time, I understand there was a great hue and cry
that it would be the ruination of this country. To the contrary it
was a boon to those employed in the cotton industry. I think that
as far as the United States
Mr. Parsons (interposing). But if they were still picking cotton
bv hand in the South, there would not be the lack of employment of
those who were picking cotton in the South.
Mr. Rauch. If we did not have competition from other lands and
other places that would be possible, but competition in business and
in our foreign trade, I think, will require that we make the best use
of any facilities that we might be able to develop in spite of the
unemployment.
PRODUCTION AND UNEMPLOYMENT BOTH PROBLEMS
I think we have two problems. I think we have one problem in
studying the advancement in our production methods. I think we
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3637
have another problem of unemployment. I am not at all sure that
we will cure the first one by arriving at an improper solution of the
second, or vice versa.
Mr. Parsons, I know we cannot stop progress. Ever since the
dawn of history we have been improving conditions with new dis-
coveries, with new inventions that the genius of man's mind has
created, and we cannot any more stop that than we can stop progress
in other directions, but some way and some means must be devised
to take care of human individuals.
Mr. Rauch. I agree with you.
Mr. Parsons. Those who are displaced.
Mr. Rauch. I agree with you heartily.
Mr. Parsons. And we cannot continue to keep the Government,
billions of dollars in debt, on and on, continuously, because there must
be a stop to that some time.
Mr. Rauch. I think we are in agreement on that.
Mr. Parsons. Or else we must go on in some endless economy under
which we may never expect to pay the bill.
Do you have any comment with reference to the future of our
indebtedness ?
Mr. Rauch. No; that is a little bit outside of my province.
Mr. Parsons. Have you any questions?
]Mr. Curtis. Did I understand you to say that you thought we
would always have to have a work program i
Mr. Rauch. I would not want to be on record as having said we
will always have a work program. I say that for some time to come
it will be necessary to have some type of relief program, and I
heartily believe a work program is the finest type of progi-am that
we can get to meet that situation.
Mr. Curtis. How long do you mean by "some time to come" I
Mr. Rauch. Well, that depends. We have not ceased to need it at
this time, according to the best estimates of unemployment; and in
the predictions that are made for the next 2 years I fail to see that
we will not need a work program. And as I said before, if world
conditions change so that we have people thrown out of emplovment,
and unless there is a gi-eater demand and greater need than our
normal requirements, unless conditions change radically, we will need
a work program more than ever before.
Mr. Curtis. Well, do you think that America is through as a people
who are self-supporting?
growing pains and new jobs
Mr. Rauch. Absolutely not. I, think that America is certainly
not any more than at the beginning of its existence ; but I think tha^t
is one of the things that we find in growth ; that is one of the prob-
lems that we have to contend with.
Mr. Curtis. Growing pains.
Mr. Rauch. Growing pains; yes.
Mr. Curtis. Well now, how many people have become unemployed
because of the advance of machinery, in the last 20 years?
OQ^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Kauch. I am not prepared to testify to that right offhand.
There has been a considerable number,
Mr. Curtis. If we stop to consider the number of people employed,
who have found new employment in the last 20 years, for instance
in the radio industry, including its manufacture and wholesale and
retail, servicing, shipment, and so forth ; the broadcasting, with all
its ramifications; with television; and tlien go on into the gasoline
business with all the ramifications as is indicated for the radio; air
conditioning; the refrigerator, to say nothing at all about the auto-
mobile industry; the manufacture, repair, and servicing, the whole-
saling and retailing; storage, transportation and insurance,
adjusting claims on the insurance; financing, and so on, together with
a like development of aviation all during these years.
During all these hearings I have been looking for someone or
some committee or some foundation which has arrived at an answer
as to what the machines have done to employment; in other words,
if you would put down on one side of the book every job taken
away by machines and on the other side of the ledger what jobs
have been supplied by machines, and find out the answer.
Now they may be right that machines are displacing labor. No
doubt they may have here and there, but so far I cannot find any-
thing but guesses and prejudice.
Mr. Rauch. Do not overlook the fact that individual produc-
tivity has perceptibly increased, unquestionably increased in the last
10 years.
Mr. Curtis. Has not consumption ?
Mr. Rauch. I am not so familiar with consumption figures.
Mr. CuETis. But do you not believe that every individual buys
and uses a lot more than his grandparents?
Mr. Rauch. Oh, yes.
Mr. Curtis. Many times more.
Mr. Rauch. Yes,^sir; in that long a period of time, yes; but one
important factor which must not be overlooked is the increased
labor supply each year.
Mr. Curtis. And that is due to boys leaving the farm.
Mr. Rauch. Not necessarily, but there are fewer— let us put it
this way — there are fewer infants relatively to the total population
today than there were 10 years ago, and a greater number of people
within the age group who are young than there were 10 years ago
in relation to the total population. That has resulted in the last 10
years in increasing the labor supply; the net increase in labor sup-
ply is in excess of 5,000,000 persons. There have been various esti-
mates, and the smallest estimate I have seen is 5,000,000 people.
Mr. Parsons. But we have had a comparative increase all down
through the years, especially in towns and cities,
Mr. Rauch. No.
Mr. Parsons. In proportion to the jobs available at that tune.
Mr. Rauch, No; I think not.
IVIr. Curtis. Through immigration did we not have ?
^Ir. Rauch. Through immigration
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3639
Mr. Parsons. We also had the old frontiers which we do not
have now.
Mr. Rauch. The old frontiers?
Mr. Parsons. Yes; where people could go.
NEW FRONTIERS IN INDUSTRY
Mr. Rauch. The old frontier was a very important factor in our
American way of life, and we have no frontiers, as we were accus-
tomed to thinking of frontiers. We still have frontiers, frontiers
aplenty, but we cannot move out and get a section of land, anywhere
from a section to several sections of land, for settling on it now.
Mr. Parsons. Our new frontiers are in new industry, new" auto-
mobiles, and things of that sort.
Mr. Rauch. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. But they do not afford the kind of opportunity
upon which to establish a home and rear a family and make a living
though family-unit production as we did have in the century before.
Mr. Rauch. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. AVhen we had frontiers to move into.
Mr. Rauch. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Is not that pretty much the answer to a large part
of the problem now?
Mr. Rauch. That is the answer, pretty much. And that provides
thought also for our national resources. As long as we had wide
open frontiers, where people who felt they wanted to make a better
living than they were then making for themselves and their family,
they could settle on the frontiers and use a part of the great natural
resources at that time.
Mr. Parsons. I am very sorry about one thing, that in every one
of these hearings I go off at a tangent, and I find I get farther afield,
so I am not going to ask you any more questions with reference to
that, although I enjoy having the matter discussed and getting new
ideas on it; but it takes too much time to develop it.
' Any further questions?
Mr. Curtis. In reference to W. P. A. projects: Would the W. P. A.
welcome it if in the report of this committee we could suggest
certain projects with a long range of time involving the stabilization
of the population?
Mr. Rauch. Well that is a pretty big proposal, but I will assure
you that we will be only too happy to consider any project that
will be of public usefulness, that will be of use in solving this
problem.
W. p. A. FOR USEFUL PUBLIC PROJECTS
Mr. Sparkman. Do I correctly understand that the purpose of
work projects is to give to the needy employables, work on useful
projects?
Mr. Rauch. Useful public projects.
Mr. Sparkman. Useful public projects.
Mr. Rauch. Yes.
3640
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Spakkman. Yes, that is the purpose rather than to get a
dollar of mvestment for every dollar expended on the project.
Mr. Rauch. That is the primary object. The secondary is almost
as important, and of course it is secondary, but it is important to
get as much as we can for every dollar expended under the primary
objective.
Mr. Sparkman. A couple of weeks ago I was down in my district
and I attended a joint meeting of the county board, a representative
of the city board, the area manager, or director of the W. P. A.,
with the engineer of the State, project director, or whatever his
title was, and they were discussing the W. P. A. program in that
area. I was very much surprised to hear the State man say that
it was their purpose to get a dollar's worth of investment out of
every dollar spent, and that on the current projects that meant that
if they could get more by the use of machinery than by the use of
men, that machinery had to be used.
Now somehow, that seemed to me, was defeating the primary
pui-pose of the W. P. A.
Mr. Rauch. The primary objective of the W. P. A., as you stated,
and I will state again, is to provide useful employment for persons
who are unemployed, and who are destitute because they are un-
employed— who are employable— on useful public projects. Now
that is the primary objective.
We are faced, where it is necessary, however, with prosecuting the
work with the people whom we employ, in as efficient a manner as
we can consistent with the primary objective of the program. Do
I make myself clear? In other words, in achieving the primai-y
objective we want to operate the project as efficiently as we can.
To put it this way, instead of having a thousand men use a few
picks and shovels that would result in moving earth at 4 or 5
dollars a yard, if we can use some trucks and maybe a gasoline
shovel and move it for a dollar a yard and still provide work on
other projects for the number of workei^ who require work, I think
that it is encumbent on the W. P. A. to pursue the second method
of operation.
MACHINERY DEFEATS W. P. A. PURPOSE
Mr. Sparkman. But if the use of that machinery throws men
out of work it seems to me to be defeating the purpose of the
W. P. A.
Mr. Rauch. Yes, if it is throwing men out of work.
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, it seems to me that the efficiency
motive can very easily be overdone.
Mr. Rauch. That is true. If we go into a job of building highways
and we do it by the use of the maximum of machinery and we are not
able because of that to employ the number of needy people whom
Ave are expected to employ, I will agree with you. But we must do
the job with as much efficiency as we can consistent with the primary
objective ; and I think it is necessary for us to do it that way.
Mr. Sparkman. That is all.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3641
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Ranch, the suggestion has been made by one of
those who testified here that a fourth category might be set up in
the Social Security Board for Federal grants-in-aid to States to assist
the relief program outside the W. P. A. Do you have any comment
to make about that suggestion or recommendation ?
Mr. Rauch. In certain categories of personal employment, I think
it is all right ; but I would like to be on record as being opposed to any
direct relief for employables, no matter if it is W. P. A. or Social
Security.
I am in accord with direct relief or assistance to the States, if that is
the policy of the Federal Government for unemployable people in
certain categories, but for employable people I think the answer is a
works program.
Mr. Parsons. Thank you very much. Your testimony has been very
interesting, indeed, and we thank you for coming here.
Mr. Rauch. Thank you. With your permission, I will submit the
following additional statement for the record, which I had intended
to read.
(The statement follows:)
The Relationship of the Work Projects Administration to Migrant Families
Seeking Work
The Work Projects Administration is very conscious of the migrant problem.
Our experience goes back to 1934 and 1935 when the Federal Emergency Relief
Administration, predecessor to the Work Projects Administration, had a special
assistance program for migrating families. Two things we learned out of that
experience : First, if you want to help the family which has lost its economic
moorings, do not encourage it to go on the road until it has something definitely
better to which it may turn in the way of employment; and, second, generally
if need of workers and their families is to be taken care of, the best place to
care for such need is in the home area and not on the road.
It is beyond the province of the Work Projects Administration to organize the
labor market so that workers may know of bona fide job opportunities. The
State employment services are making progress in that direction. However,
the Work Projects Administration is undoubtedly the largest single force in
prevention of a more serious migration problem in this country by providing work
for the needy unemployed in their own home communities.
MIGRANT IN NO MAN'S LAND
The value of this treatment is obvious. Unemployed workers who go on a
will-o'-the-wisp search for work frequently find none. They become poverty
stricken, in need of food, shelter, and clothing. They have lost the ordinary
social ties in the community, such as the church, friends, clubs, private- and pub-
lic-welfare agencies, through which they may receive aid and assistance. Worst
of all, they cannot be employed on the works program, thereby maintaining their
skills and work habits because they cannot be certified to the program under
the rigid statutory residence requirements in many States. Local welfare
authorities will, by and large, not refer needy residents to the Work Projects Ad-
ministration for certification as eligible for Work Projects Administration em-
ployment. The migratory worker is thus left in a no man's land.
It should not be necessary for me to mention more tlian briefly the pro-
visions of the law under which the Work Projects Administration is able to
give work to needy unemployed i)ersons. The Emergency Relief Appropria-
tion Act, fiscal year 1941, requires that a determination as to the need of
I)ersons seeking work be made by local public welfare agencies. Thus, before
the Work Projects Administration could employ, under ordinary circumstances,
needy migrants, it would be necessary for local welfare authorities to determine
3642
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
their need and advise the Work Projects Administration accordingly. Work
Projects Administration regulations require that persons otherwise eligible
shall not be refused certification for employment because legal settlement
or residence has not been established within the State or a political subdivision
thereof. , . ,
However, many welfare authorities cannot, under their laws, make a deter-
mination that migrants are in need because of stringent residence requirements.
In other instances, only temporary aid can be given, pending the return of the
families to their State of residence. Even if the Work Projects Adminis-
tration should make a determination as to need in lieu of that made by local
welfare authorities, it is very doubtful that communities where these migrants
congregate are prepared to sponsor projects for such persons. Under tlie Relief
Act sponsors are required to contribute 25 percent of the cost of projects and
many communities are unable and, in some cases, unwilling to take on such
a financial burden.
The Work Projects Administration has felt the impact in recent years of
three different groups of migrating workers and their families In search of
work. The first of these is the group which is always on the move. It is
literally a floating labor supply and has its roots nowhere. The second of
these consists of farm families who have left the farm because it could not
provide them with a minimum livelihood. The third group has become a
problem only within the last few months. It is the group which is migrating
for defense jobs.
FLOATING POPULATION
A group which needs the consideration of this committee are the migrants
who have always been on the move. They are persons who move with the
seasons or where there is opportunity for temporary employment — a floating
population, many of them work only long enough to gain passage to the next
town or to the next seasonal job. In predepression years there was a need
for these workers in all seasonal employment fields. Now they have been
replaced in large numbers by the newer migratory group described below and
present a serious problem. While the Work Projects Administration program
has had a stabilizing influence, local opposition from sponsors of work projects
and from residents who seek work but cannot find it make it impossible for
the work program to extend any widespread assistance in helping this group
to settle down and become self-supporting.
SHIFTING RURAL POPULATION
A significant migration has been the shifting of a rural population whose
income was normally derived from the farm or from farm employment. This
includes the seasonal migrants following the harvests, the farmer driven from
his farm by drought to seek a living elsewhere, the farm hand displaced by
machinery, and the tenant farmers and sharecroppers who for various reasons
were forced off the land or were unable to eke out an existence on their
meager acreages. Here, again, the Work Projects Administration has been a
stabilizing force in providing project employment for thousands upon thou-
sands of families who otherwise would be forced to follow those other thou-
sands for whom there has as yet been found no solution — either of home or
employment.
MIGRATION RESULTS FROM THE DEFENSE ACTIVITIES
The entire migration problem has been recently complicated by a new force
which makes for the shifting of large numbers of persons in search of work.
To date increased employment due to the defense program or normal industrial
employment has not caused unskilled labor to migrate to any serious extent.
Yet there are many of these who, unemployed, hope to find jobs and so are
on the move. This number is increasing. However, the stabilizing effect of
the Work Projects Administration program tends to keep them employed at
home and available for private or other public employment.
Skilled and semiskilled labor, on the other hand, has in most instances
found a ready market and, without exception, the State Work Projects Admin-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3643
istratious report both influx and outflo%v of skilled workers. These generally
find work and obtain good wages and therefore present no problem of destitu-
tion. However, in many instances, acute housing shortages are reported with
rents skyrocketing beyond reason. This in turn is creating a hardship on
impoverished families who cannot afford increased rents and are forced to
move.
This skilled and semiskilled labor is attracted to sites where Army canton^
ments are under construction and to centers of armament defense industries.
It is generally believed that work now under way in the Army cantonments
will be of limited duration only. In addition to the skilled and semiskilled
workers, it is these projects that have attracted unskilled labor also. When
the cantonments are completed, the skilled workers will have earned sufficient
to return home or seek work elsewhere. The demand for skilled labor may be
expected from other defense activities.
Of the semiskilled and unskilled, both those who found work and earned
small wages and those who remained only hoping to find work, many will
remain stranded, a problem for local authorities to cope with. Families and
single persons have flocked there by the thousands — on foot, in cars of all
kinds and descriptions, or by bus and train, with or without cash reserve.
Many of these camp projects are located near small centers of population so
that proper housing, health, and sanitation measures are lacking. Increasingly
stringent residence laws complicate the problem of assistance, as well as
opposition from local project sponsors to contribute toward the support of a
population which may remain stranded at this point.
It is my belief that the Federal agencies should begin to plan and to operate
now for the groups of i)eople who are migrating and who, unless preventive
measures are taken, will migrate and accentuate the problem which is already
serious enough. It is further my belief that when bona fide employment
opportunities can be found for members of these groups, they should be aided
and assisted to obtain such employment. That alone is a big enough problem
for governmental agencies to undertake. At the same time everything pos-
sible should be done to prevent the swelling of the number of migrating
workers. This can best be done by extending the programs of Federal agencies
which provide assistance or public work of useful character for needy families
in or near the vicinity of their homes.
TESTIMONY OF MISS DOROTHY C. KAHN, NEW YOEK, N. Y.
Mr. Curtis. Miss Kahn, will you give the reporter your full name,
address, and the capacity in which you appear?
Miss Kahn. Dorothy C. Kahn. I am assistant executive secretary
of the American Association of Social Workers, 130 East Twenty-
second Street, New York.
Mr, Curtis. Will you state briefly what the American Association
of Social Workers is, and something about the scope of its activities?
Miss Kahn. The association is a professional organization of social
workers similar to that of a medical association for physicians, or
the bar association in the field of law.
We represent about 12,000 social workers throughout the United
States, who meet the specific qualifications of the profession, edu-
cationally and otherwise, in the field.
It is a membership organization and has 85 local chapters in
various large urban communities ; some State-wide chapters in which
our work of organization is carried on. We are concerned primarily
with the promotion of obtaining standards of performance of social
work activities throughout the country, the development of better
resources, and the preparation of personnel and its use of the train-
ing acquired on the daily jobs of the members; of promoting more
3644
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
satisfactory social programs to meet the needs of the people whom
our members serve in their daily task.
That is a very brief statement of our function.
Mr. CuKTis. It is a voluntary membership?
Miss Kahn. It is a voluntary membership organization to which
persons who meet our membership requirements are eligible.
The organization is about 20 years old. We have been continu-
ously active in the promotion of social legislation. We have testified
frequently before congressional committees, particularly in relation
to relief -work programs, and social security.
Mr. Curtis. Does your membership extend into all the States?
Miss Kahn. Yes; and Territories.
Mr. Curtis. If you will please direct whatever remarks you care
to make to the committee, together with any recommendations that
you may have, we shall be glad to hear you. As you know, the par-
ticular task we are assigned to is the problem relating to the inter-
state migration of destitute persons. Please proceed in your own
way.
Miss Kahn. I hope you will permit me to be very informal, be-
cause our notification of this hearing came only this morning. We
happened to be in Washington. So, if you will permit us to do so,
we will file a more formal statement later on.
(The statement referred to follows:)
American Association of Social Workers,
New York, N. Y., December 13, 1940.
Mr. RoBiaiT Lamb,
Chief Investigator, Committee to Investigate Interstate
Migration of Destitute Citizens,
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.
Dear Mr. Lamb: Attached is a statement for the record which was promised
at the time of my impromptu testimony before the committee on December 6.
Sincerely yours,
Dorothy C. Kahn,
Assistant Executive Secretanj.
Statement for the Record of the CoMMiTTia: on Interstate Migration of
Destitute Citizens
The American Association is organized to promote and develop standards of
competent practice of social work. It is concerned not only with the training
and establishment of standards of competent performance but more widely
with the interpretation of the facts of social work to the public to the end that
the direct experience of social work may be brought to bear on social problems
and be of aid to the administrative agencies organized to deal with these
problems.
The association includes 11,300 members organized into 85 local and State
chapters. Each chapter has responsibility for study and obtaining of data on
subjects such as the material with which this testimony is concerned.
The American Association of Social Workers believes in and supports the
progressive development of public social services. Since the founding of this
democracy, such services have been recognized as a proper function of govern-
ment. They now constitute one of the most important aspects of the relation
of government to its citizens in the life of our time.
These services will not have reached a desirable level of operation until
practical measures have been adopted which assure the economic, social, and
physical well-being of every person in the American Commonwealth. The ob-
jective requires the leadership and resources of the Federal Government. It
is tlie responsibility of the Federal Government either to provide or to see to it
that the services needed are provided.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3645
There are four major concerns in the development of public social services:
(1) Coverage and tlie degree to which the needs of the people are met; (2)
program, or devices and methods utilized to meet these needs; (3) administra-
tion, to carry out the responsibility accepted; and (4) personnel, the final in-
strument through which the purposes and designs of the services are carried
out.
Throughout the last decade the association has been continuously active in
expressing its concern with the problems resulting from widespread unemploy-
ment and resultant dependency. In December 1931 the American Association
of Social Workers set up a commission on unemployment to study the extent
of the problem in local and State areas. In May 1932 and again in December of
that year, members of the American Association of Social Workers appeared as
witnesses before the Congressional Subcommittee on Manufactures concerned
with the problem of unemployment relief. Throughout the following years,
with the development of the Federal Emergency Relief Administration,
the Civil Works Administration, the Civilian Conservation Corps, the Work
Projects Administration, and National Youth Administration, each step in the
development of a public-assistance program was carefully studied and, when-
ever possible, information derived from direct experience of its members has
been offered for the use of Federal and State authorities. In 1935 the Ameri-
can Association of Social Workers played a part in the committee work and
in the hearings which preceded the passage of the Social Security Act. At
each point in the development of the public program the specialized experi-
ence of the individual social workers and the association as a whole has been
made available to congressional committees.
The National Committee on Transients and Homeless which included repre-
sentatives from sucli national agencies as American Red Cross, National Associa-
tion of Travelers Aid Societies, Family Welfare Association of America, etc.,
presented material at a congressional hearing on relief in 1933. The conten-
tion of witnesses in 1933 was that the special problem of the transient and un-
settled State resident was a Federal responsibility and the needs could not be
met without the financial assistance of the Federal Government. Largely as a
result of this the Relief Act of 1933, section 4C, provided for the possibility of
granting aid to persons who had no legal settlement in any one State or com-
munity. Again when that program was discontinued in September 1935, the
committee expressed in various ways the concern which was felt for the result-
ing problem of provision of care for those persons in need who were not gen-
erally accepted as a charge on local or State funds.
When the association was informed of the field hearings of the Tolan Com-
mittee on Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens, local chapter chainnen
were requested to testify to their knowledge of the migrant problem in their
areas. In most of the regions tlie American Association of Social Workers'
chapters did not act per se but rather were represented by members acting in
their official capacities or representing their agencies. Such additional infor-
mation as the local chapter could provide was made available to them. For
instance in New York the welfare council report and in Los Angeles the Council
of Social Agencies studies given as testimony covered the field of information
which is represented by the interests of the American Association of Social
Workers.
The American Association of Social Workers considers the migration of both
industrial and agricultural workers from one area to another in search of
work as a natural part of our national economy. This movement in search of
work has been part of our tradition since earliest times. It seems particularly
important at this time when workers arg needed for national defense work that
they be helped rather than penalized in their efforts to obtain work. There is
need therefore of strengthening the use of the public employment service and
increasing the availability of general assistance to those workers whose search
for work has not met with immediate success in the new locality.
STUDY OF MAY 1940 BY AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF SOCIAL WORKERS OF TRENDS IN
THE PUBLIC SOCIAL SE21VICES
A Study made by chapters of the American Association of Social Workers on
the changes in the public social services in their areas indicate an increasing
problem in the insufficient provisions made for relief for that individual who
3646
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
has left his original place of residence and can no longer maintain himself
independently. Part of the problem is closely tied with the inadequacy of
general relief. This inadequacy of general relief is heightened for the non-
resident by the fact that the major responsibility of general relief is a matter
of local financing.
Too often with this as a basis, the feeling of the local group is similar to that
reported of Indiana: "Transients and nonresidents aided 'under protest.' The
community attitude is against aiding these because of the 'dire need' of the
other persons resident of the community."
While this responsibility for general relief is being one primarily of the local
or county group is not new, there seems a growing tendency to shift responsi-
bility increasingly in that direction. This may take the form of curtailment of
State funds in States which supply all or part of the funds for general relief,
of levying sales taxes for relief purposes, or of making stricter prohibitions
on the use of State funds for nonresidents, aliens, and transients. Penn.syl-
vania, for example, has denied relief by State legislation to any but citizens
and to aliens who declared their intention of becoming citizens prior to Janu-
uary 1, 1940. Colorado, Ohio, California, Kansas, Illinois, and Indiana are
among the States which have made more stringent residence requirements.
North Carolina, for instance, reports there is no provision at all for care
of nonresidents except through the private agencies. Rockford, 111., says the
policy there is that "persons lacking legal residence are not chargeable to any
public agency. Transients are offered a night's shelter in jail and a gallon
of gas to get out of town. There is no organized service for them." From
Ohio comes the report, "Transients are given 'a meal, a bed, and the order to
get moving.' " Iowa indicates that "transients and nonresidents are given
emergency care."
Limited by State action and by lack of taxable resources, communities gen-
erally seem to be reducing the amount of aid given to employable persons and
to nonresidents, transients, and aliens. Often underlying the attitude toward
able-bodied persons seeking work is an assumption that they are the responsi-
bility of the Federal Government. The facts, however, are that only a portion
of this group are given Work Projects Administration employment in any
community. This varies from as low as 20 percent to as high as 90 percent.
Denial of aid to aliens, nonresidents, and transients is often a matter of
official policy or legal requirement. On the other hand, pronounced limitation
or denial of aid to persons able to work is more often a matter of practice.
For instance in Missouri, able-bodied persons receive relief only in emergencies
and funds for this purpose are almost negligible. In Columbus able-bodied
persons were cut off relief May 1.
It is not infrequent practice to make smaller allowances for the able-bodied
and other groups under disfavor or to eliminate all but major items from
their allowances. However, this seems less significant than the increasing
tendency to cut the general level of allowances. In the majority of com-
munities reporting, only a proportion of a minimum family budget is covered in
the allowance.
In California the standard budget is reported to be 44 percent under the
minimum subsistence level for a family of five. Drastic appropriation cuts
by the legislature in recent months made it necessary to reduce even this low
budget 30 to 50 percent. In South Carolina the allowance was limited for a
period by an order to the State Department to two-thirds. Douglas County,
Nebr., reported an allowance of 22 cents per day per family in December 1939
for all needs.
The reports warrant the following conclusions: In the majority of communi-
ties funds for general relief are inadequate to meet needs; certain groups,
particularly nonresidents, aliens, and transients, as well as the so-called
employables, are consistently neglected or discriminated against; relief allow-
ances in all but a few States are far below a minimum subsistence level ;
in many communities there is acute suffering on the part of a large proportion
of the needy unemployed and dependent. These reports, coming from more
than half of the States, give convincing evidence that administration of relief
by States and localities without Federal assistance leads each to evade re-
sponsibilities which belong to all three.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3647
NATIO^-AL DEFENSE PEOBLEM AS IT RELATES TO THE MIGRANT
The problem of the nonresident out of work applying for relief has increased
with the development of industries or cantonments in localities which do not
have within local range the number of men needed for the work. Sometimes
immigration of men into new territories for work has been controlled through
exclusive use of the United States Employment Service. However, even the
most guarded announcements of jobs do not prevent the rumors of jobs spread-
ing, so that more persons come to apply for work than there are jobs available.
If the employer issues a general request for workers the number applying may
be 10 or 15 times the number of jobs. Many of these rejected applicants have
no way of returning to their place of original residence and the men and their
families are stranded. Local facilities for relief are not adequate to carry this
tremendously increased burden even if the local commissioners were willing to
feel this responsibility as a logical charge on them.
Added to this problem of those who are in need because of failure to get
employment are those workers stranded by a lay-oft after a brief period of
employment. Many of the men thus laid off will not have worked a sufficient
period of time to be eligible for unemployment insurance benefits. They, too,
may be stranded and may have lost residence in their own State through restric-
tions which involve loss of settlement after a limited period of absence from the
State. Thus they cannot receive general relief even if they could return to
their original State of settlement and will, as indicated from evidence above,
be unable to receive help in the community in which they have just had
employment.
Other problems for the workers seeking or obtaining employment in these new
industries are those of housing and health. Frequently the number of em-
ployees has risen far more rapidly than the housing accommodations available,
or with the greater pressure of need for housing rent costs become excessive.
Sanitation facilities are often on a very inadequate level and all the problems
of the migrant camps gi'Own familiar in the farming areas are repeated.
Hospital facilities too are often not developed at a rate to meet the increased
pressure for care. Educational facilities organized to meet the normal require-
ment of the community are not always flexible enough to meet the greatly
increased load.
RECOMMENDATIONS
Attached is the platform of the American Association of Social Workers on
the public social services stating principles which if enacted into law would
make provision for needy migrants.
Amekioan Association of Social Workees' Position on Public Social Se3ivices —
Resolution Passed at Delegate Conferen*ce, Grand Rapids, May 24, 1940
[Reprinted from the Compass, June-July 1940]
platfobm on public social services
The American Association of Social Workers believes in and supports the
progressive development of public social services. Since the founding of this
democracy, such services have been recognized as a proper function of govern-
ment. They now constitute one of the most important aspects of the relation
of government to its citizens in the life of our time.
These services will not have reached a desirable level of operation until
practical measures have been adopted which assure the economic, social, and
physical well-being of every person in the American commonwealth. This
objective requires the leadership and resources of the Federal Government. It
is the responsibility of the Federal Government either to provide or to see to
it that the services needed are provided.
There are four major concerns in the development of public social services —
(1) coverage and the degree to which the needs of the people are met: (2)
program — or devices and methods utilized to meet these needs; (3) administra-
tion— to carry out the responsibility accepted, and (4) personnel — the final
instrument through which the purposes and designs of the services are carried
out. On each of these concerns social work experience leads the association
to support the propositions there outlined.
gg^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
PRINCIPLES
I. Coverage. — All persons whose resources fall below a level sufficient to
maintain them and their families in health, decency, and socially acceptable
activity are a proper charge upon public resources.
The ultimate social cost of poverty, ill health, and idleness are bound to be
greater than the immediate cost of prevention and care.
II. Program. — ^Work: Work under wholesome conditions and at wages suffi-
cient to assure maintenance for the worker and his normal dependents should be
available to all who are not disabled.
To the degree that private industry cannot provide such opportunities, gov-
ernment should provide them.
Work under public auspices should be provided to employ as many persons
as can be absorbed in socially useful projects, which utilize the skills and
abilities of unemployed persons. Such employment should be available to an
unemployed person for such periods of time as appropriate work in private
enterprise is unavailable to him. Wholesome conditions and protections should
be assured for workers on public projects. Payment for work done on public
projects should be the union scale of wages, where such scales have been devel-
oped, and should not fall below the minimum standards set by law for the
protection of private employment.
Tests of individual needs other than evidence of lack of other employment
opportunity are inconsistent with the concept of work outlined above.
A work program is not in itself a training program and should be distin-
guished from necessary efforts in this direction. Therefore, public projects
for young persons and those occupationally displaced should be primarily
directed to promote training or retraining in suitable occupations.
Social insurance: Provisions for insurance against loss of income because
of unemployment, old age, injury at work, and loss of breadwinner have already
been found to be feasible. Such provision should be extended to cover disability
and illness.
The insurance system should provide benefits of such an amount and for
such a period as to provide reasonable security for the insured, and progres-
sively to reduce the need for other measures.
Coverage in existing systems should be extended to the entire working
population.
Assistance: Public assistance should be available to meet the needs of all
those unable in other ways to maintain for themselves and their dependents
an adequate standard of living. Assistance measures should be:
1. Broad enough in scope to provide for all types of needy persons regardless
of the cause of their need, and regardless of race, creed, political affiliation,
citizenship, or length and place of residence, or any other arbitrary restriction
on eligibility. Compulsive features of laws and rulings regarding family re-
sponsibility should be abolished.^
2. Adequate to enable needy persons and their dependents to maintain accept-
able standards of living and to prevent physical and social deterioration and
break-down of morale.
3. Granted under such conditions of eligibility and calculated in such a way
as can be readily imderstood by persons in need. It is also essential that these
conditions should be of such a nature as to appeal to a sense of fairness on
the part of applicants for assistance, and thus engage them in responsible
participation in the process of determining eligibility.
4. Designed to conserve the personal integrity and dignity of the persons in
need and to assist them to return to self-maintenance wherever possible.
Assistance rendered in form other than the normal medium of exchange violates
this principle.
Employment service: Employment service under public auspices is essential
for the guidance and distribution of the labor supply in relation to the require-
ments of the labor market. Such service, available on a Nation-wide basis,
is necessary to aid in providing data on the extent of available work at any
given time. It is a vital link not only between employment opportunities and
the need for work, but also between this and the various other programs of
government. Unless the availability of employment openings nnd the capaci-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3649
ties of persons seeking work are continuously and competently related to one
another, work will be denied to persons who could be effectively employed,
and assistance or insurance granted unnecessarily.
Development of adequate employment data and current inventories of occu-
pational shortage is necessary for the promotion of effective employment service
and also for the guidance of persons who have been occupationally displaced
and young persons seeking a vocation.
Health service:^ Government should provide or guarantee that adequate
medical care and public-health services should not be denied to any person
because of inability to pay.
Housing : Government should be responsible for providing or guaranteeing an
adequate supply of safe, decent, low-rental housing for all groups who cannot
otherwise be provided with adequate shelter.
III. Administration and organization. — In order to carry out the foregoing
program a coordinated administrative structure is essential in Federal, State,
and local units of government. Also essential is effective cooperation between
these units, and between Federal, State, and local governments. It is impos-
sible to meet the needs of people in a nation where these needs vary from
place to place, often in inverse ratio to local resources, without the leadership
of the Federal Government.
Federal resources, administrative and financial, must be utilized in appro-
priate measure to supplement those of State and local governments. Effective
administration therefore involves:
(a) Federal aid to equalize the resources of State and local governments.
(6) The establishment by the Federal Government, in cooperation with State
and local governments, of minimum standards of operation and service.
(c) A program so organized that at all times the various parts of the pro-
gram should so fit together that lack of coverage by one program at any given
time should be fully compensated for by others, recognizing that extension of
employment opportunity is the first charge of our social organization, and that
other programs require progressive development in this order— insurance, public
work, and last assistance, and other measures of relief.
id) Continuous research by appropriate government agencies as essential
to sound planning.
(e) The recognition that financing necessary social services is costly, but
that the absence of such services is more costly, not only in terms of money,
but in human resources on which the money economy rests. Financing should
be such as to improve the total economic situation. ' Methods should be based
on the same principles as the program itself, so that costs will rest where they
can best be borne.
IV. Personnel.— ThQ public interest demands that competent service be assured
in the public social services in order that public funds shall be administered
humanely, economically, and effectively. Such service can be assured only
through the recruitment, selection, and tenure of the best-equipped personnel
in relation to the specific nature of each type of position. Professional func-
tions should be performed by professionally qualified persons. A well-adminis-
tered merit system offers the only assurance of such personnel in the public
service.
TESTIMONY OF MISS DOEOTHY C. KAHN— Resumed
Miss Kahn. Your committee has already received some recom-
mendations from lis, I believe, in the local' hearings that you held
in the various communities throughout the country. Some of our
local chapter representatives have already testified and filed some
data with you.
We sent you last July some abstracts from a rather impressionistic
report that we had made on relief conditions throughout the United
States. I think the thing we would probably like to stress with this
committee is not any further accumulation of factual data, because
I am sure you already have more than we could possibly give you
in any brief space of testimony.
gg^Q INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Our point of view about this problem is that it has been unfortu-
nate that migrancy has been considered as if it were an evil in the
United States, whereas the fact of the matter is, I think we are
accumulating continuous evidence to this effect, that one of the essen-
tial characteristics of American life, industry, and agriculture is that
people must be free to move about in relation to the need for their
productive activity. If we cannot move the jobs to the people, we
have to move the people to the jobs, and there are certainly many
parts of this country where moving the jobs to the people would be
quite impossible.
MIGRATION IS NECESSARY
Our agricultural problems in the West and Southwest and perhaps
even in some other parts of the country I think indicate that we
could not possibly pick our crops without the movement of people
for brief periods of time into the areas where the crops are growing
and where picking is needed.
As we are now managing our industrial location of projects, par-
ticularly defense projects, it would be manifestly impossible to man
these projects with what is called local labor.
We have, therefore, evidence of rapidly growing communities in
and around not only industrial centers, but cantonments, serving
the needs of people in their daily activities and in normal occupa-
tions.
If that is true, then it seems to us that instead of placing increas-
ing restrictions on the number of people, instead of making this
normal movement of people a hazard, because individuals who hap-
pen to move and happen not to get jobs when they do move to a given
place are then found to be without resources, that there is some-
thing essentially illogical in our failure to provide for people for the
mere reason that they happen not to be residents of a particular
locality, in spite of the fact that they are residents of the United
States and are seeking not just irresponsible travel, but a livelihood.
AVe could give, of cour.^e, any number of illustrations of this point.
Our staff members travel from time to time to our various chapters,
and I have just returned from a trip to the west coast where I heard
story after story of men who are seeking em])loyment in our devel-
oping aircraft industries in and around San Diego, where groups of
people are concentrating, sometimes brought in responsibly by the
employing companies, and sometimes coming on their own initiative
because they see an opportunity for work. And, if perchance an
individual fails to get a job or if he does get a job and it is found
he cannot meet some of the technical requirements such as the physi-
cal examination or the rate of speed required in some of these highly
productive enterprises, the individual is laid off and he finds him-
self, through no real fault of his own. in a position where he has,
perhaps, divested himself of his last bit of worldly goods in order
to seek a job in a new community; and the community says to him,
"We cannot do anything for you. We cannot even send you back
to the place you came from, and, of course, we cannot give you relief
because you are a nonresident."
INTRODUCTION
The pictures on the followmg pages offer graphic presentation of
the lack of housing facihties avaihable at widely scattered defense
construction projects. More than 700,000 men are engaged in the
construction of ships, shipyards, Army cantonments, and on other
national defense projects. Their presence in small communities has
overcrowded the housing facilities in almost every case. Reference
is made to the testimony of Chester C. Davis, Philip Ryan, Jane
Hoey, Ewan Clague, Dr.E. R. Coffee, Boris Shishkin, J. W. Stude-
baker, and Isador Lubin in this connection.
These photographs were furnished by the Farm Security Adminis-
tration from its files and were accepted for the record.
Migrant construction worker's family from Texas sleeping in car. They cook and eat in a lean-to. Near
Camp Claiborne, Alexandria, La. December 1940.
[■'%iU j'^l
Texas initirant from Quemado Valley lives in Mexican house near Cornus Christi, Tex. Trailer in back
yard belongs to another construction worker.
SX-!'V£.4«W
^hack occupied by construction w (
Corpus Christi, Tex.
p"^/'
Ten cousti-uction workers occupied this liu sliacli at Camp Livingston, near Alexandria, La. December
1940.
Construction workers at Camp Livingston, La., who sleep in their car and "camp out." Botli had worked
on other projects before going to Camp Livingston.
Men eating meal supplied by the Salvation Army at Corpus Christi, Tex. At the time this picture was
taken, December 1940, there was a surplus of unskilled labor at Corpus Christi and many were stranded.
vjr-**- m
School under construction at North Beach section of Corpus Christi, Tex. The surrounding area was
formerly a tourist camp, but now is occupied by defense workers and their families.
Dollar-a-day "apartments" 3 miles from new Navy air base at Corpus Christi, Tex.
^^ SEETHE ^
De lux£
APARTMENTS^
B£FORE-YOU-<;0-ELSEWHERE M
hh, WATER St.
*^i^:JI
Sign advertising t!ie "De Lu\e" apartments ^above") torrent to construction workers near Corpus Ciiristi,
Tex.
^^%^>^.
I 1 li I IhiiM li ii I I Mill Mm 1 mil \ iirkers and Army families alike at Fort Ben-
-NU'tal ^lieltLi; leiu f"i >iii a uiuuih, trailer space eosts $2 a week.
^t^
"^^ ^^ewton D. Baker Villaoe
Defense housing project of the Housing Authorit.\ ct <'iihiiiil
-*s».^
tJ.
i ■
■
iSimi ■ '
New h(jusinu under eonslnietion for workmen or Anny men neiir t'amp Livinustou, Alexandria, La.
Itinerant preacher from South Carolina migrates to Camp LivingEton, near Alexandria, La.
Camp nf iriiik
ilicir families at Corpus Christi, Te.\. I
air base now under construct mu.
_.-^----
T
Wr' ^^ #.
g^
^^HMjjjk ' 1
Ir
*^
Trailu .nuit huu m:; workmen and families at Corpus Christi. Tex.
ing a naval air base.
CurpL'iiicrs ami cuiist
fkers wailiji.k'outsiHc Fluri.la Slale Kiiiiaoynic
Starke, Fla., to apply for jobs.
I
- £*r / / / // n
i
-•1
IH
Job applicants at Corpus Christi office of the Texas State Employment Service. At tliis project there was
a surplus of unskilled labor and a shortage of skilled workmen in December 1940.
Concrete worker resting while wife searches through want ads for an apartment. Pacific Beach, Calif.,
December 1940. Man and wife live in a tent because of high apartment rentals.
Migrant workman and family in makeshift living quarters at Corpus Christi, Tex. December 1940.
3650-K
Flophouse of some 37 beds, occupied by workers in relays at 50 cents each. Some of the men were suffering
with influenza when the picture was taken. December 1940.
Even though it is winter in this northeastern State, this couple lives in a shack in the woods near a con-
struction project because of a housing shortage in the nearest city.
Construction workers drying out bedding and mattresses from their trailer after a week of heavy rains and
winds. Near Camp Livingston, La., in December 1940.
^<^
^
#^
Lot- . 1\, HI c 1 Inl .dv
liMlll, \U ^ ,,1 111 I 1 I
: ki Is lostaiiiant and
:ifi5(-M
^
■aiier (.■amp <i( ( upicil l.% , ,,nsti u, iK.ii u oikers aii.l soMiers' lam
Family and lioine of a Louisiana farmer who gave up farming to earn more money at construction work in a
new Army camp. Much of the man's added income is lost because of higher food and milk prices.
w,l'i
W Iff Ufa euliciclu uuikur oii a <lc.leii.^e (UdjL'i'l .li>iii. ,.u; l.laiik, I. uia.i.- >i . , 1.^ iaiii lli.- j.n-re.liiii; iiii;lil
Pacific Beach, Calif. Decemhei H»4U.
This family followed construction work in Texas. Louisiana, Illinois, and Arizona. The husband and
father, a carpenter, said, "I know this work spree isn't going to last and I'm not going to give all I make
to the landlords." They are now living in their own tent. December 1940.
This construction worker's son is talcing ginger cookies out of a stove that cost his father $135. They live
in a shack because of inability to find better housing available at Corpus Christi, Tex.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3651
Mr. Parsons. What recommendations does your association have to
make for that individual, for the Federal Government and the States
to aid that individual you have just described? That is the big prob-
lem before this committee.
Miss Kahn. Our association has developed from year to year a plat-
form, so to speak, of principles that we would like to see incorporated
into developing legislation not only for this individual but for other
groups in need.
ADVOCATES FEDERAL ASSISTANCE
One of the important principles that we are advocting is that assist-
ance should be provided by the Federal Government in cooperation
with the States and the localities to meet the needs of people irre-
spective of such questions as race, creed, color, citizenship, or residence,
with the States and the localities to meet the needs of people irre-
spective of their technical, legal residence in a given community.
I do not know whether that particularly answers your question,
Mr. Parsons. That is pretty much along the general lines we have
had from a number of witnesses who have appeared at different places
and especially here. We are a little short of time this afternoon. You
said something about desiring the opportunity of filing a paper.
Miss Kahn. We shall be glad to do so.
Mr. Persons. We shall be very glad to have you do so if it is in by
the 12th of December. That will be next week. I would like, if you
will, to incorporate all of your recommendations in that paper, and
the committee will be veiy glad to have them before us and as part
of the record.
Miss Kahn. Thank you.
Mr. Parsons. If there are no further questions, thank you very
much. Miss Kahn.
The next witness is Benjamin C. Marsli, executive secretary of the
People's Lobby.
TESTIMONY OF BENJAMIN C. MARSH, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY,
THE PEOPLE'S LOBBY, WASHINGTON, D. C.
^Ir. Parsons. State your name and address and whom you repre-
sent.
Mr. Marsh. Benjamin C. Marsh, the People's Lobby. I am the exec-
ntive secretary.
Mr. Parsons. Do you have a prepared statement?
Mr. Marsh. I want to read a brief statement and cite some figures
and make some further comments, if I may.
(The statement is as follows:) ^
STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN C. MARSH, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY, THE
PEOPLE'S LOBBY
There are certainly half a million farm families, and probably three-quarters
of a milliou, who cannot have a decent existence in competitive commercial agri-
culture, who should be in Government or cooperative farms under careful and
tactful supervision.
260;{T0 — 41-— pt. !V
Qg^2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Early this year Dr. W. W. Alexander, Farm Security Administrator, said : "If
we were to attempt to do a complete job, the Farm Security Administration
should extend its rehabilitation program to virtually all of the 1,700,000 farm
families which have an average annual income of less than $500 a year, including
all I lie produce they grow^ for themselves."
He added: "America cannot affoi'd to plan only partial solutions, or to be con-
tent with palliative measures." ^ , ^
The increase in employment for armaments will not largely afCect farm surplus
labor, while the need for defiMise practically closes the export market for farm
products, and does not assure snllicient increase in domestic demand to offset this
loss, as probably less than half of the unemployed will find work m defense
industries before 1942. . , , • ^ .
Government and cooperative farming to be successtul requires reasonable prices
for suitable land, fair prices for material and equipment, careful and tactful
supervision, and a cooperative spirit among the families.
In 1938 the value of farm lands held by the 26 largest insurance companies
was $529,000,000, andf from 1982^S8 they foreclosed $670,000,000 of farm
mortgages
The Federal Government owns over 260,000,000 acres of land in the Forest
Service and Grazing Division, and many States own much farm land acquired
through tax sales, and some of all these lands are suitable for such cooperative
farming. ^.^. , .
Naturally farmers in commercial agriculture, fear competition under present
conditions, and most of cooperative farms should be self-sustaining, or exchange
products. . , ^.
Families in such farms would not be compelled to remain, and the young
folks would be free to take employment which offers a better financial status if
they can get it, or to try farming on their own.
Obviously, such a farm program will not solve our economic chaos, it will
mitigate some of its worse impacts.
Uncontrolled finance capitalism has run its course, and the private monopoly
dictatorship which we have, though getting a new lease of life through the
war, will yield to an intelligent system of production and distribution in the
next few years.
TESTIMONY OF BENJAMIN C. MARSH— Resumed
Mr. :Marsh. I am executive secretnry of the Peoples' Lobby with
headquarters here in Washiiioton. I have been here nearly 23 years
now, and observed the operations of Conoress with interest, and I
was going to say, enthusiasm — I will say enlightenment.
Mr. Parsons. How large an organization is yours?
INIr. Marsh. It is a very small one, about 2,000 members, and live
or six hundred subscribers to our monthly bulletin.
Mr. Parsons. Do they contribute dues for the maintenance of your
bureau here ^
Mr. Marsh. Yes; we have varying memberships, and they are
scattered over about 32 or 33 States. It is not a large organization,
but we go on the tlieory — I think you will accept it — that Congress-
men are anxious to consider the merits of any measure as well as
liow many people say they are for it. It is time we did that, anyhow .
Understand, this is not a partisan statement, be<>ause we are in a
mess
Mr. Parsons. That is the weakness of democracies. The people
themselves, constitutionally, at least in theory are the Government,
and tliey speak through constituted re]n'esentatives. The public doe.<
not always Imow exactly what is best for them and neither does their
representative always know.
interstatp: .migration 3653
Mr. Marsh. Do not take this personally, but I sometimes wonder
whether I sympathize more with the people or with their representa-
tives. I think yon will hardly blame me.
Mr. Parsoxs. Thank yon for your consideration. You may pro-
ceed with yoMj- statement.
f;0\'ERN3rENT FARMS SU(iOKS'ITJ)
Ml-. Marsh. Tlieiv are cei-tainly half a million fann families, and
probably thi-ee-qiiarters of a million, who cannot have a decent ex-
istence in competitive commercial af^riculture, who should be in Gov-
ernment or cooperative farms, under careful and tactful supervision,
Mr. CuETis. What do you mean by Government farms?
Mr. Marsh. I mean that the Government in substance extend the
work that it is doing under the Farm Security Administration in
these resettlement projects. And if I may illustrate — and I am so
glad to emi:)ha.size this — about 4 or 5 years ago, I had the opportunity
of visiting some of them, including the one near Scottsboro, Ala., up
in the mountains there: Crossville. Tenn. : and Diaz Colony, in
Arkansas; and several others, and I was impressed with what they
were achieving. It happened that people near Scottsboro — the Cum-
berland Plateau, I think they call it
Mr. Sparkmax. Skyline Farms now.
Mr. Marsh. They Avere the best illustration, because they had
come from the poorest relief families. They got the land very
cheaply through a dummy. They had a genius for a superintend-
ent, and a personnel man, and I was delighted witli the difference
in the people from what they must have been when they came off
the relief rolls, and with their coopei-ative spiiit which they were
showing.
So it may be necessary — and I am going to submit with your
permission a bill which we had drafted making possible the acquisi-
tion under certain conditions of farm land by tlie Government, either
operated directly, as is practically done in the resettlement projects,
or through coopertaive farming; oi- it may be more practical — they
thought so when we suggested this bill '1 years ago or a little over —
to have the Congress make larger ap]n'opriations for the Resettle-
ment Administration, the Farm Security Administration.
But I want to quote several Government officials on this, includ-
ing the Vice President-Elect, a statement that he made as Secretary
of Agriculture.
However, early this year. Dr. W. \\ . Alexander, the Farm Secu-
rity Administrator, said :
If we were to attempt to do a complete job, rhe Farm Secvuiry Admiiii.strati'Mi
should extend it.s rehabilitation i>rogi'ani to virtually all of the 1,700,000 farm
families which have an average annual income of less than ?.tOO a year, includ-
ing all the produce they grow for themselves.
He added :
America cannot afford to plan only partial .'solutions, or to be content with
Ijalliative measures.
The increase in employment for armaments will not largely atfect
farm surplus labor while the need for defense practically closes the
3554 INTER STATP] MKUIATION
export market for farm products and does not assure sufficient in-
crease in domestic demand to oifset this loss, as probably less than
half of the unemployed will find work in defense industries before
1942.
May I say, after writing this, I got the release this afternoon of a
speech which Dr. Louis H. Bean, counselor of the Bureau of Agri-
cultural Economics, is making at the American Society of Agronomy
in Cliicago today, in which he says :
PROBLEM OF SURPLUS FARM LABOR
Instead of rising agricultural exports of tbe World War period, we now
face sharply restricted agricultural exports as the present war spreads. Not
more than 3 percent of farm income will be derived this season from exports
as compared with 16 percent in the 1920's. Thus, the problem of surplus
manpower on farms looms larger than ever in areas normally producing for
export, particularly in the South and Middle West.
Dr. Bean is a very careful economist, and doubtless has made a
l)retty careful estimate of what the exports will amount to.
As I say, the increase in employment for armaments will not
largely affect farm surplus labor wliile the need for defense prac-
tically closes the export market for farm jn'oducts, and does not
assure sufficient increase in domestic demand to offset this loss, as
probably less than half of the unemployed will find work in defense
industries, before 1942, when we will probably hit the peak and
have maybe five or six million more employed. That is going to
leave us — well, I notice that the American Federation of Labor says
that the present unemployed figures are 8,130,000. That was in this
morning's papers.
Government and cooperative farming to be successful requires
reasonable piices for suitable land, fair prices for material and
equipment, careful and tactful supervision, and a cooperative spirit
among the families.
Just as an illustration. Secretary Wallace stated in an address in
December :
With full use of mechanical power we can produce our present supplies of farm
products with 5,000,000 fewer people living on the land.
I do not need to go into any detail as to what that signifies in the
way of the displacement of present farmers.
He further said in his report :
Illustrative of the human problem involved, it may be said that without letting
the production fall below the demand, wheat and cotton combined could get along
with 1,500,000 fewer working persons. Present prospects for domestic and for-
eign takings, with allowance for the possible effects of the war, will not solve it.
That problem still remains. Where are you going to get the land?
I admit you are facing a practical problem, and the stress is going to be
upon measures which rate as paramount in defense of the country, and
pretty large appropriations up to date have been made. I think we
are more threatened with bottlenecks in the tool industry and the steel
industry than with appropriations. .Congress has done its part.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3655
HOAV TO GET FARM LAND
Now, I want to make some suggestions as to Iioav to get the land.
In 1938 the vakie of farm lands held by the 26 largest insurance
companies was $529,000,000, and from 1932 to 1938 tliey foreclosed
$670,000,000 of farm mortgages.
The Federal Government owns o^er 260,000,000 acres of land in the
Forest Service and Grazing Division, and many States own much farm
land acquired through tax sales, and some of all these lands are suitable
for such cooperative farming.
I have discussed this question over the country. Nearly every year
I go from here to the coast. I was out this summer and discussed it
with farmers in different sections of the country, the farmers who are
in commercial production, and they are very much worried over this,
and I can understand it.
Suppose these farmers who are now on relief go into ]n'oducing
cotton and wheat and milk and livestock and what not. We cannot
sell what we are producing today, and we are responsible for the
maintenance of our farms, which, as you know, means taxes and mort-
gage interest and supplies and what not. Therefore, I make this
suggestion. Naturally, farmers in commercial agriculture fear com-
petition under present conditions, and most cooperative farms should
be self-sustaining, or they could exchange produce, and so forth.
Families in such farms would not be compelled to remain, and the
young folks would be free to take employment which offers a better
financial status if they can get it, or try farming on their own.
I am not suggesting that you say to people who are unemployed on
the farm, "You cannot leave it." That would be strictly un-American.
They should not be compelled to remain. I notice tiiat Mr. Rauch
pointed out that they let them take employment wherever they can get
it, even if they are on relief — that is, employment in private industry.
Obviously, such a farm program will not solve our economic chaos,
but it will mitigate some of its worst impacts.
Now, I am unable to tell this committee — I have not noticed whether
it has been brought out before you in your hearings up to date or on
your investigations over the countrj' — I do not know what proportion,
for instance, of the migratory farmers called Okies who went to Cali-
fornia, or the farmers who are drifting back and forth, have lost their
farms.
Mr. Parsons. We have the record of that; around 60,000 farm units.
Mr. Marsh. The foreclosing of mortgages was not the only cause
of the migratory workers, if only 60,000 out of the hundreds of thou-
sands who are going without a home are represented by that group.
private monopoly dictatorship
Uncontrolled finance capitalism has run its course, and the private
monopoly dictatorship which we have, though getting a new lease
of life through the war, will yield to an intelligent system of produc-
tion and distribution in the next few years.
2556 INTERSTxVTE MIGRATION
It seems to me we are in a very serious impasse. If there should be
some sudden assured permanent peace tomorrow, the economic system
of every major country would collapse. It is all geared to a huge
armament program. If we go on for 2 or 3 years more of preparedness
without having something very carefully worked out to replace this
preparedness program, the collapse will be much worse.
I want to read one more statement from Dr. Bean, to whom I re-
ferred and identified earlier. He says :
If national income reaches $90,000,000,000 in 1942 as compared witli 75 billions
in 1940, roughly 3 billions more may be spent by consumers for foods, of which
farmers may receive about one and a lialf billion. This moderate gain would yield
agriculture as a whole no improvement iu its share of the national income and
still leave farm income about $2,000,000,000 short of the parity income standard.
Also, he says :
Any increase in farm income will cliiefly benefit the upper 50 penent of the farms
which receive 85 percent of the total income, and the lowest third may receive a
still smaller share since many of them have been producing for export.
Now, I have several statements here w^hich I would be glad to read
to you from testimony of Secretary Wallace and others before commit-
tees. But there is one that I want to confine myself to.
Mr. Parsons. We have had several witnesses from the Department
of Agriculture and its various divisions at our other hearings, and
jn-obably a great deal of that territory has been covered.
people's lobby oefeks bill
Mr. Marsh. I do not want to repeat it. I do not know whether these
two or three short statements have been presented to you or not. I
think you will be interested in the reaction wdiich we got to this sug-
gestion for a Government marketing corporation which is incorporated
in the bill which I w ould like to have made a part of the record, as a
suggestion. It is a proposed bill. It has not been introduced. This
analysis of the bill and a brief for it was read into the Congressional
Record on May 4, 1939, by Mr. Knutson, of Minnesota. But he frankly
said that he did so by request and not with any thought that he was in
accord on the proposal. I did not w^ant to commit him on that at that
early stage.
Mr. Parsons. Without objection, that may be incorporated in the
record here.
(The matter referred to is as follows:)
PUBUC Control and Ownership of Natural Resources — Extension of Re-
marks OF Hon. Harold Knutson. of Minnesota, in the House of Repre-
sentatives. Thursday, May 4, 1939 — Analysis and Brief by the People's
Lobby, Inc.
Mr. Knutson. ilr. Spealier, under leave to extend my remarlvs in tlie
Record, I insert a statement of a proposed plan for public control and owner-
ship of natural resources. I am doing so by request, and not with any thought
that I am iu accord with the proposal.
I. ANALYSIS OF PROPOSED BILL
The policy of Congress is declared to be "to encourage and promote the
public control and ownership of agricultural land and resources in order to
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3657
preveiit absentee private ownership of land, speculation in farm lauds, exploita-
tion of farmers, and the subjection to debt burdens of land operated by owners."
The Secretary of Agriculture is authorized to acquire any real property
within the United States and its Territories, for the purposes of the act, "by
purchase, exercise of the power of eminent domain, or gift."
Tlio total appropriation for the purpose is $250,000,000.
The Secretary is authorized to lease farm lands acquired to bona fide
farmers' or other cooperatives on conditions he prescribes and also to operate
such fantns.
It is stipulated that in acquiring farm lands consideration shall be given
to what the average net return of the lands has been during the preceding
10 years, adn what it probably would be should the land remain in private
ownership, and that the price paid "shall be, as nearly as possible, what the
land would bring in the open market without any Government subsidy on
crops, direct or indirect."
II. BKIKI- FOK BMPOWl'JlING THE SECRKTABY OF AGEICULTtTRE TO ACtJT^IKB FARM I^\NDS
AND OPERATE OR LE/VSE THEM
1. All good farm land has passed into private ownership. — All good farm land
has passed into private ownership and is held for speculative selling prices
or profits.
The Department of Agriculture reports that about 100,000,000 acres of land
should be withdrawn from cultivation.
In a pamphlet. Saving the Soil, it states :
"Of the 1,907,000,000 acres representing the total area of the country, ex-
clusive of city and water territory, nearly two-thirds is in some degree affected
by erosion. * * *
"In terms of money, the direct toll of erosion is estimated at $400,000,000
annually."
In 1929 only about 8,000 farms were classified as large-scale farms — or one
one-hundredth percent of all farms — but they paid 11 percent — about one-
ninth — of the total farm wage bill.
In 1935 there were 88,662 farms of over 1,000 acres out of 6,812,350 farms.
In 1935, 3,899,091 farms were operated by owners, of which only 3,210,224,
less than half of the total, were operatefl by full-time owners, and 48,104 were
operated by managers.
Tenant farmers operated 2,865,155, or 42.1 percent of all farms, and there
were 336,S02,0(J0 acres in tenant-operated farms, or 54 percent — considerably
over half — of all land in farms.
By 1937, Secretary of Agriculture Wallace rei3orts, the number of farm
tenants was about 2,565,000, and he commented :
"Not all farm tenants need to be converted into owners in order to give
them the necessary security. Cheap land in itself may not be the answer.
This country had plenty in the past and gave it away freely under the home-
stead laws ; yet throughout large areas today there are more tenants than
owners, and the tenants are very insecure. It is well to aid tenants in becom-
ing owners as funds and opportunities permit, but the problem of giving more
security to the remaining tenants must be dealt with in other ways. Land
buying, indeed, sometimes causes speculation, excess of debt, and foreclosure, the
end result of which is more tenancy. We need a better farm-tenant system and
better methods of land loaning."
2. Government policies are increasing selling prices of farms and rentals, and
reducing demands for farm products. — The Secretary of Agriculture in his
annual report for 1938 states that in 1938 the index of the value of farm land
per acre for the entire country was 85, compared with 73 in 1933, with the
years 1912-14 equaling 100, and makes two comments :
(a) "Important among the current factors in the situation are the present
ample supply of credit for land transfers, the prevailing low level of interest
rates, and the sharp decline that has taken place in the last decade in the
total agricultural indebtedness."
3658 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
(b) "Many farms still carry indebtedness tbat is excessive in relation to
their earning power.
"Moreover, farm earning power tends frequently to be overestimated, par-
ticularly when land values are rising. It makes no difference whether the
advance results from an actual increase in current farm earnings, or from a
gain in the net income to the farmer as a result of low interest rates. What-
ever the cause, farmers tend to capitalize the favorable prospects exces.sively
and to make them the base for an unwieldy superstructure of debt."
He also states: "Rent paid by farmers in the United States to nonfarmers
in 1935 is estimated at $699,000,000, in 1936 at $743,000,000, and in 1937 at
$829,000,000."
This excludes rentals paid to relatives and to other farmers, and since
buildings on rented farms are notoriously poor, it is chiefly rent for farm lands.
In 1929 such rentals were $1,110,000,000.
Higher prices for farm products due to higher costs of production and dis-
tribution have curtailed domestic consumption, which the administration seeks
to increase by special arrangements for those on relief, and has alo reduced
demand abroad.
We exported only about as much wheat in 1938 as in many years before
1932, and about half as much cotton.
The plan for export bounties on farm products won't meet the situation.
3. Farm program does not raise standards of landless farmers. — For the
current fiscal year. Federal expenditures for agriculture, exclusive of appro-
priations for the Department of Agriculture, are estimated at $1,092,973,500,
of which "aid for tenant farmers" is only $26,800,000, or about 2V2 percent.
A small part of the Farm Security Administration and Rural Electrification
Administration outlays also seeps through to tenant farmers and sharecroppers.
• »***♦«
4. Mechanization on farms militates ayainst tenant farmers. — Dr. C. Horace
Hamilton, in a study "The Social Effects of Recent Trends in Mechanization of
Agriculture" by the Texas College of Agriculture and the Mechanical Arts,
says:
"It has been estimated that, in 1830, 288 hours of man-labor were required
to produce a hundred bushels of wheat on 5 acres of land. By 1930 only 49
man-hours were needed to produce 100 bushels of wheat on 5 acres.
"In the production of corn, the number of man-hours needed to produce
100 bushels dropped from about 180 in 1880 to 104 in 1930.
"In 1930 only 235 man-hours were required to produce a bale of cotton as
compared to 285 in 1900, and 304 in 1880.
"The surplus of farm tenants available in Texas has created considerable
competition among tenants for places to rent ; and, as a result, rental rates
are rising. In areas that once followed the straight third-and-fourth share rent
systems, cash rents and privilege rents of various types are being u.sed. Pas-
ture land, which tenants formerly received free of rent, now rents frequently
for $1 ijer acre.
"In some areas tenants are being charged cash rent for their dwellings. In
many areas from three to six dollars per acre is being charged for land planted
in fee crops. On many of these farms the cash rent on the feed lands amounts
to more than the income from cotton."
Dr. Hamilton estimates there are betvs^een 200,000 and 300,000 cotton pickers.
Mechanization is partly responsible for the fact that about one-seventh of tho
farms of America produce about one-half of all farm production.
This leaves one-half of farm production for six-sevenths of the farms.
Dr. Paul S. Taylor, in an article in the United States Department of Labor
Monthly Review for April 1938, states :
"Between 1930 and 1937, according to the best data available, the mimber of
tractors (on southern farms) increased from 12.2 percent to 18.5 percent of the
national total. While tractors increased 23.7 percent in the United States, they
increased 87.9 percent in the 10 southern Cotton States."
5. Present status of farm tenants and farm labor. — Mr. J. R. Butler, president,
Southern Tenant Farmers' Union, describes the status of "more than 10,000,OCK>
human beings" as "enslaved in chains by 'King Cotton,' absolute monarch of
America's Southland."
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3659
He states :
"Diiriug the past 5 years, more than 500,000 sharecropper families — white and
colored — have heen displaced from their homes, forced into the cities, there to
begin futile competition with America's 10,000,000 unemployed, or have accepted
the horrible alternative of becoming farm laborers, paid by the day, for working
from sunup to dark, at a wage between 50 cents and $1.50."
«♦*♦**
In 1935 the then Resettlement Administration estimated that 630,682 farms,
Avith 91,246,000 acres, presented use problems which "appear to warrant encour-
agement of a change from crop farming to stock ranching, or to forestry or other
oonservational use."
Fourteen Southern States had 451,767, or over two-thirds of these farms, with
44,012,000 acres, or nearly half of the acreage.
These States did not include the Dust Bowl nor the big grazing States. .
Sharecroppers, tenant farmers, and farm labor are being made the victims
of this "economic planning" for the benefit of southern plantation monopolists
and their northern avaricious credit lirokers.
6. Present status of Ooveniiiiciif ic-^cttleiiicnt projects. — The Assistant to
The Secretary of Agriculture stated Jaiuiary 6, 1939:
"(1) The Farm Security Administration has virtually completed 149 projects
which were initiated by the Resettlement Administration or other preceding
agencies. This total includes five migi-atory labor camps and three suburban
housing projects known as Greenbelt towns. The remaining projects vary
greatly in type. Although no two are quite alike, they all fall within these
general classifications:
"(o) Full-time farming projects.
"(b) Subsistence homestead projects, in which the residents produce most
of their food supplies in their own gardens, and earn their principal cash
income by working in established industries in nearby cities.
"(c) Part-time farming projects, in which the residents earn part of their
income by working in industries which have been established at the project
site.
"(2) Expenditures on all projects up to November 30, 1938, totaled approxi-
mately $102,678,753. The total expenditures for all projects except the sub-
urban communities and the migratory labor camps was $64,461,122.
"(3) Although some of the projects are not yet fully occupied, 49,781 persons,
•or approximately 10,000 families, were in residence as of December 1, 1938.
We regi'et that we do not have a break-down showing the number of adults
and the number of minors resident in our projects. In general, however, the
typical families selected for residence included two adults and between two and
three children.
"(4) Industrial enterprises have been established, or are being planned for
nine of the projects."
* * * ■•:: * * *
This is a good beginning, but meets the needs of only about 1 i)ercent of
those equally needing a chance.
7. Reasons for provisions as to payment. — The admission by the Secretary of
Agriculture that Federal payments to landowners for soil conservation, crop
benefits, etc. — really a subsidy — has increased the selling price of farm lands
shows the necessity for ending the policy of scarcity subsidy, which inures
chiefly to the benefit of farm-land owners, as there has been a marked reduction
of farm-mortgage debt, as well as interest rates.
Government, representing all the people, cannot maintain class privileges.
Its largesse to farm-land owners was designed to save their productive plant,
but does not establish a precedent.
The fact Government has given such salvaging subsidy gives it a prior
ethical claim to acquire farm lands for the use of the most helpless of the
farm population — on the basis of the selling price of farms without a Govern-
ment subsidy.
In the early thirties few farms showed a net return.
No net return means no commercial selling price.
Government must not, in fairness to all, buy back what it has created.
3660
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Legally title to all land is inalienably vested in the Government — State or
Federal.
Refusal to provide Federal subsidies to farmers would insure acquiescence in
a rational program of land taxation, and acquisition for the public welfare, at a
price not bloated by Treasury grants ; that is, by taxes on consumers.
Only Federal subsidies prevents the debacle of agriculture today.
8. Chief alleged ohjectiom and answers. — First. Taxing all ground rent into
State and local treasuries in place of taxes on consumption would make land
available for a song and remove the need for such a measure.
This should be done, but would not be enough, because farming can no longer
be conducted as an individualistic competitive enterprise, as the growth of
farmers' selling and buying cooperatives attests.
Second. The plan would lead to an orgy of speculation in farm lands and the
(government would be struck heavily.
The Government will be much more careful about paying high prices for laud,
when it is to retain title, instead of unloading it on sharecroppers, tenant farm-
ers, and agricultural workers, and making them hold the sack. The Government
can refuse to buy high-priced land, and through its grants from the Treasury
compel State and local governments to adopt tax systems which will reduce the
selling price of good farm lands.
Third. It will ruin farmers' independence.
That has already been done; and the wealthiest farmers, with the highest-
priced land, are most dependent upon the Government and getting the biggest cut
out of the Treasury, and ultimately the people, by bonuses, soil-conservation pay-
ments, taritfs, and county agents' services.
* * * * * * *
9. Agricultural experts favor general plan of Government and cooperative farm-
ing.— Dr. H. C. Nixon, Birmingham, Ala., executive secretary, Southern Conference
for Human Welfare :
"I am in hearty sympathy with the idea of setting up Government farming cor-
porations, with power to operate farms directly or through cooperative societies :
in other words, with the idea of providing facilities by which more people can
help themselves as producers and consumers on the countryside.
"This is particularly important in the South, where so many people are backed
up on the land but where human and physical resources are not adequately har-
nessed for producing a living or for living.
"The Farm Security Administration program is good as far as It goes, but it
does not go far enough."
Dr. J. D. Black, department of economics. Harvard University :
"So far as the proposal relative to farming operations is concerned, I think
it would be better to work this out of the F. S. A. by the procedure of amend-
ing the act to permit the Government to acquire land and sell it under flexible
long-time contracts, preceded by short-term lease periods, as was recommended
in the original report on farm tenancy.
"My principal objection to that proposal was that I would make the period
during which the contract can be paid completely elastic up to 40 years.
"I would also amend the act to permit experimenting with cooperative
farming ventures. I think we must feel our way along with respect to under-
takings of this sort. In general, I would expect an arrangement under which
each man operating his own farm by large-scale machinery that was owned by a
group of farmers cooperating for that purpose would prove more satisfactory.
"I should also like to see the rehabilitation program of the F. S. A. pushed
as rapidly as is warranted by the success which it achieves in any given area."
Barry Bingham, president and publisher, and Mark F. Ethridge, vice presi-
dent and general manager, the Courier-Journal and the Louisville Times, join
in the statement ;
"You ask our opinion on the value of an expansion of the resettlement
program of the Farm Security Administration. It was the sentiment of the
Atlanta meeting (of 29 representative southern leaders), as stated in their
declaration, to urge the continuation and expansion of this program.
■'We personally feel that it is one of the outstanding constructive efforts to
which we should devote ourselves in order to obtain any measure of security
in the farming regions of our Nation.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3661
"The limited program which has been in operation, as you suggest, barely
touches the problem. It has been suiiieient to prove, however, the soundness
of such a plan, and the overwhelming need for a reconstruction of our
American farm life along these lines."
Dr. T. Lynn Smith, director, experimental stations, Louisiana Agricultural
and Mechanical College:
"I favor a limited amount of governmental experimentation with large-scale
cooperative agricultural ventures. I am particularly concerned, however, that
such undertakings be designed in a manner that allocates responsibilities for
decisions and failures to the various members of the society. In other words.
if all of the thinking is reserved for a few managers of the project, in my
estimation the thing has failed before it has started.
"There are problems of land tenure in the South which are very real, but
these are similar to tenure problems in other parts of the country. In addition
to these the South has the acute problems which arise out of the plantation
system due to the fact that the great mass of the agriculturists have no tenure
rights, and a few people shoulder all the responsibilities. At the present time
the so-called tenancy of the South is blamed for the one-crop system ineffi-
cient labor, low returns to the laborers, soil erosion, soil exhaustion, etc. It is
intei'esting to note that prior to the Civil War the institution of slavery received
the blame for these.
"Why not saddle the responsibility onto the plantation system where it prop-
erly belongs? Perhaps in the future a system of cooperation will be evolved
which will overcome the social disadvantages of large-scale agriculture. But
so far in the liistory of the world large-scale agriculture has always resulted
in the development of a small selected group of the elite, while the great
mass of the population has remained in ignorance and poverty."
Dean Thomas S. Staples, Hendrix College, Conway, Ark. :
"We need to subsidize or finance the marginal and submarginal farmer. It
is unwise, to my notion, for us to colonize people from the lowlands, the high-
lanas, and the alleys together in colonies situated in social and geographical
areas to which they are not accustomed. To be specific, it is my opinion that
it is miwise to bring people from the hills and from the bottoms where they
have lived in houses situated far apart and locate them in such projects as the
Dyess colony. It is unfair as well as unwise to set up Government farming
corporations for a few of the people and subsidize the projects at the expense of
other people. I approve in principle agricultural cooperative societies. How-
ever, I do not believe in the Government subsidizing them."
Dr. Charles S. Johnson, director, department of social science, Fisk Univer-
sity:
"I believe that in the present situation of the great mass of tenants, in
the South notably, the major needs are (a) for secvu-ity above the rather ques-
tionable unique advantage of ownership in fee simple, and (b) for intelligent
and dependable guidance in the form of Government services, in the interest
of the producers themselve>«.
"No other arrangement that I can think of can serve both the long-exploited
producer at the bottom and at the same time contribute intelligently to the
preservation of the soul of the South."
William Mitch, president, district 20. United Mine Workers of America,
Birmingham, Ala. :
"It seems to me that it would be well for the Government to give a trial to
this experimental proposition of cooperative farming when full facts have been
developed in the matter."
The proposal is not to "socialize" or "collectivize"' agriculture, but to extend
rapidly pi-actical Government ownership of farms, and provision of Govern-
ment direction and guidance for hundreds of thousands of untrained and im-
poverished farm families by methods which have already proven their worth.
TESTIMONY OF BENJAMIN C. MARSH— Eesumed
Mr. Marsh. You see, I do not agree Avitli the witness early this after-
noon, if I understood him correctly, who said. "I hope yon jnst con-
tinue your investigation."
I know you have something more practical in mind than just con-
tinuing this investigation. You want to make constructive recom-
mendations to the Cong-ress.
3gg2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
We sent a draft of tliis bill outlining its principles, that were ap-
proved by such men as Dr. H. C. Nixon, of Birmingham, Ala,, execu-
tive secretary of the Southern Conference for Human Welfare; we
sent the bill to them and they approved the principles of the bill— Dr.
J. D. Black, of the department of economics, Harvard University;
Dr. T. Lynn Smith, director, experimental stations, Louisiana Agi-i-
cultural and Mechanical College; Dean Staples, Hendrix College,
Conway, Ark.; and Dr. Charles S. Johnson, director, department so-
cial science, Fisk University; and William Mitch, president. District
20, United Mine Workers of America. Bii-mingham. Ala.
They did not approve the details of the bill. Naturally, I did not
ask them to do that, but the principles.
We are going to have some migratory farm labor and other labor
almost ine-^atably. But what we have not faced up with, it seems to
me, and what your committee is bound to face up with, is the fact that
we have — I have heard Government officials say it privately — at least
1,000,000 if not 1,500,000 surplus farm families under the present
economic set-up.
Of course, they are going somewhere else, looking for a job, even if
they have not a chance in the world, if they can get the money to do it.
RECOMMENDS LARGE APPROPRIATION
We therefore suggest that either you make a large ax^propriation —
tentatively we suggested quarter of a billion dollars for this — I will
not say experiment — for continuing the successful experiment in Gov-
ernment-organized and Government-operated farms, or for cooperative
farms, or else make an additional appropriation to the Farm Secu-
rity Administration of whatever amount you can raise above the pres-
ent appropriation, so that they can get a large proportion of it ; for, as
Dr. Alexander or one of his associates stated in a recent hearing, they
are just scratching the surface.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, it would take a tremendous amount of
money to complete a program such as you liave outlined. The Farm
Security Administration has helped approximately half a million farm
families and is continuing to help them, and will continue to do so in the
future, and probably add additional ones to their loan rolls. But it
would take a tremendous amount of money to put over such a pro-
gram. It is possible that upon the cooperative people taking it out of
the power of the Government and putting it on the basis of at least
semiprivate operation, it might work out.
Mr. Marsh. We have not found any other answer.
Mr. Parsons. With the aid of the Government, perhaps. AVe are
very glad to have your suggestion in that connection, and no doubt
you will be able to fuid someone who will introduce your bill in the
next Congress. Of course, if it is, it will be referred to the Agi'icul-
tural Committee, and you will have an opportunity to exi)lain the
details before that committee.
Mr. Marsh. May I make one suggestion? I have been unable to
find out how mucli good farm land is owned by private banks. We
liave the records on the insurance companies, but I Avonder if your
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3(3(33
committee could ascertain how much farm land the banks and mort-
gage companies now own through foreclosure, or what the amount of
land is that could be taken in. it seems to us at a fairly low price, be-
cause there is not going to be the boom in farm lands this time that
there was in the last war ; because, instead of there being an increase
in exports, as I pointed out to you, there is going to be a terrific
decrease.
If your committee could do that, it would l)e \ery hel})fu!.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Parsons. Thank you.
The committee will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock on Monday.
(Wliereupon the committee adjourned, to meet on Monday, De-
cember 9, 1940, at 10 a. m.).
INTERSTATE MIGEATION
MONDAY, DECEMBER 9, 1940
House of Representatives,
Select Committee to Investigate the
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens,
W ashing ton^ D. G.
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John H. Tolan (chairman)
presiding.
Present: Representatives John H. Tolan, chairman; Claude V,
Parsons; John J. Sparkman; Carl T. Curtis; Frank C. Osmers, Jr.
Also present: Dr. Robert K. Lamb, chief investigator; Henry H,
Collins. Jr., coordinator of field hearings; Creekmore Fath and John
W. Abbott, field investigators ; Ariel E. V. Dunn and Alice M. Tuohy,
assistant field investigators; Irene M. Hageman, hearing secretary;
Richard S. Blaisdell, editor; Harold D. Cullen, associate editor.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order, please.
The first witness is Mr. Chester G. Shackelton.
TESTIMONY OF CHESTER G. SHACKELTON, BALTIMORE, MD.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Shackelton, will yon give your name and ad-
dress to the reporter?
Mr. Shackelton. Chester Shackelton, 12 East Lafayette Street,
Baltimore, Md.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Shackelton, how old are you ?
Mr. Shackelton. I am 22,
Mr. Sparkman. Where were you born ?
Mr. Shackelton. I was born in Esbon, Kans.
Mr. Sparkman. Are j^ou married?
Mr. Shackelton, No.
Mr. Sparkman. How much schooling did you have?
Mr. Shackelton. I went through the gi-ade school and 2 years of
high school.
Mr-. Sparkman. Two years of hi^h school?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Ml-. Sparkman. Why did you stop your high-school work?
Mr. Shackelton. I just wanted to work, I guess.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you go to work; did you get a job?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes; working in an elevator in Esbon, Kans.
Mr. SpARKiMAN. Are jTm working now?
INIr. Shackelton. Yes.
3665
QQQQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Spakkman. Wliat are you doing?
Mr. Shackelton. Working on airplanes.
Mr. Sparkman. Where?
Mr. Shackelton. At the Glenn L. Martin plant in Baltimore.
Mr. Sparkman. How long have you had that job?
Mr. Shackelton. Two weeks.
Mr. Sparkman. Is it a temporary job; you are not just employed
on a temporary basis now ?
Mr. Shackelton. No.
Mr. Sparkman. What is the nature of your work ?
Mr. Shackelton. I am working on construction of wings.
Mr. Sparkman. Are you a skilled worker?
Mr. Shackelton. No; just went through school.
Mr. Sparkman. What school did you go through ?
Mr. Shackelton. The Aeronautical Institute in Kansas City.
ten weeks in aeronautics school
Mr. Sparkman. How long did you go there?
Mr. Shackelton. Ten weeks.
Mr. Sparkman. What did it cost you to go there ?
Mr. Shackelton. $166 ; that was the tuition.
Mr. Sparkman. $166 was the tuition ?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How did you happen to learn of that school ?
Mr. Shackelton. Well, I had been thinking about going to some
school, some place, and my aunt wanted me to go there.
Mr. Sparkman. What is your training ; what are you classified as ?
Mr. Shackelton. Well, I do not know ; just do everything that I can.
Mr. Sparkman. Are you a mechanic?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes; I have worked at it.
Mr. Sparkman. Or a helper?
Mr. Shackelton. I have worked as a mechanic.
Mr. Sparkman. Well, on your present job, what is your classifi-
cation ?
Mr. Shackelton. I am classified as a spliner.
Mr. Sparkman. What is a spliner ?
Mr. Shackelton. It is splining up wings, getting them even.
Mr. Sparkman. It is a regular job in aeronautical work?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You stayed about 6 weeks in the school, did you?
Mr. Shackelton. Ten weeks in Kansas City.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you pay the wliole amount of your tuition
yourself ?
Mr. Shackelton. No.
Mr. Sparkman. How was it paid?
Mr. Shackelton. My aunt loaned me the money to begin with.
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, one of your family paid it?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You were not schooled by the Glenn L. Martin con-
cern
Mr. Shackelton. No.
INTERSTATE MIGUATION 3667
Mr. Sparkman. Did you get a job immediately upon finishing your
school work?
Mr. Shackelton. I would have if T had filled out the application
blank right.
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, you got it as quick as you applied
for it?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Did the school ivc^uire fidl ])aynient of tlie tui-
tion before you started training^
Mr. Shackelton. No.
Mr. Sparkman. How did you pay it ?
Mr. Shackelton. Paid $50 d<nvn and the rest on the instaUment
plan.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you finished paying for it all (
Mr. Shackelton. No ; I am still paying on it.
school promised employment
Mr. Sparkman. Did the school ))r()mise to get employment for
you ?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. And were they instrumental in getting it?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes,
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, they did put you in touch with
the Glenn L. Martin concern?
Mr. Shackelton. Well, they told us to write to the factory and
get an application blank, and they helped to get the job.
Mr. Sparkman, Is the school pretty well filled ?
Mr. Shackelton. It was when I was there,
Mr. Sparkman, That is what I mean; and did you observe that
there were a great many young men going to these schools?
Mr, Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you feel that your work in the school was of
special benefit to you ?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman, You intend U) follow the aviation industry^
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Did most of tlu^se who were in school along at
the same time with you get employment Avith some company?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. It is your opinion that the attendance at this
particular school did give you value for the money that you spent?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. I believe that is ^all I wanted to ask.
The Chairman. Mr. Curtis.
Mr. Curtis. AVhere is Esbon, Kans. ?
Mr. Shackelton. Esbon, Kans., in the north central part of the
State.
Mr. Curtis, What county?
Mr, Shackelton. Jewell.
Mr. Curtis. Jewell County?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
ifiOMTO— 41— pt. 9 14
3668
INTERSTATK MKJKA'I'K )X
Mr. Sparkman. How far is tliat from Superior, Nel)r. ; not very
far? "
Mr. Shackelton. No.
Mr. Sparkman. You say you are 22 years old?
Mr, Shackelton. Yes. . .
Mr. Curtis. Was there any opportunity to secure aviation work
in Kansas?
Mr. Shackelton. No; not where we were; the only place was at
Wichita.
Mr. Curtls. They were not employing anyone there ?
Mr. Shackelton. No ; not right then.
Mr. Curtis. Were there many boys from the Great Plains Statea,
such as you were, in Kansas, who were in training in the line you
were in?
Mr, Shackelton. Yes ; I believe there were.
Mr, Curtis. You say you were in training in Lincoln ?
Mr. Shackelton. No; Kansas City,
Mr. Curtis. About how many were enrolled; was it a large en-
rollment?
Mr. Shackelton. I believe there were about 100.
Mr, Curtis. About 100 enrolled?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
APPLY FOR JOBS NEAR HOME
Mr. Curtis. Did most of the boys make application to go east or
Avest, or did they try near their home first ?
Mr. Shackelton.' Well, a lot of them tried at Wichita; they just
sent applications to all factories.
Mr. Curtis. Do you know of any other airplane factories in that
group of States, besides Wichita?
Mr. Shackelton. No.
Mr. Curtis. There are not many large ones around there ?
Mr. Shackelton. No.
Mr. Curtis. That is all.
Mr. Sparkman. Were you reared on the farm ?
Mr. Shackelton. I have lived on the farm, until 7.
Mr. Sparkman. Until 7 ?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Spariohan. You mean until you were 7 years of age?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you worked on the farm since ?
Mr. Shackelton. Just a little.
Mr. Sparkman. What doing?
Mr. Shackelton. Oh, shocking wheat, shucking corn.
Mr. Sparkman. You had a natural desire for mechanical work ?
Mr. Shackelton. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. I think that is all. Thank you.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3669
TESTIMONY OF LEROY P. WINDHORST, OF WELLS, KANS.
Mr. Curtis. Will you state your name, please.
Mr. WiNDHOKST.- Leroy P. Windhorst.
Mr. Curtis. Hoav old are you ?
Mr. Windhorst. Twenty.
Mr. Curtis. Are 3^ou married ^
Mr. Windhorst. No.
Mr. Curtis. What is your address ?
Mr. Windhorst. Wells, Kans.
Mr. Curtis. What part of Kansas is it in ?
Mr. Windhorst. It is really in the central part. We are just 30
miles from the geographical center of the United States.
Mr. Curtis. What is the largest town you are located near?
Mr. Windhorst. Well, we are 90 miles from Wichita; 90 miles
north.
Mr. Curtis. How far are you from Salina ?
Mr. Windhorst. Twenty-five miles.
Mr. Curtis. You are north of Salina?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. What school did you attend 'i
Mr. Windhorst. Kansas Wesleyan University.
Mr. Curtis. How long were you at Kansas Wesleyan ?
Mr. Windhorst. I was there about 4 months.
Mr. Curtis. When did you graduate from high school?
Mr. Windhorst. In May of 1938.
Mr. Curtis. And when did you enroll in Kansas Wesleyan?
Mr. Windhorst. In September.
Mr. Curtis. Of 1938?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. How large a town is Wells ?
Mr. Windhorst. The population is 100.
Mr. Curtis. One hundred ?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. What is the county seat of that county ?
Mr. Windhorst. Minneapolis.
Mr. Curtis. Mr. Windhorst, what does your father do?
Mr. Windhorst. Well, he farms some. He did run a grocery store
in that town, but sold out just recently.
Mr. Curtis. Business is not so good in a town of 100 ?
Mr. Windhorst. No ; there is too much competition.
Mr. Curtis. Is vour father able to make a living running the
farm?
FAR:NrEn limited to raising M'HEAT
Mr. Windhorst. Yes; he is doing right well, except he is limitxjd
more or less to raising wheat; cannot raise corn.
Mr. Curtis. How many acres does your father farm, usually?
Mr. Windhorst. It varies between' 300 and 400 acres, depending
upon the year.
Mr. Curtis. Does he own the land ?
Mr. Windhorst. He owns it.
^Q'JQ INTERSTATE MIGIJATION
Mr. CuKTis. How much help did he require in running a farm of
400 acres?
Mr. WiNDHOKST. Well, in seasons when I was home lie and I did
it ; we had a tractor and a combine ?
Mr. Curtis. You did tractor farming?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. And when your father was engaged in tractor farm-
ing did you live out on the farm or live in toAvn ?
Mr. Windhorst. We lived in the little town of Wells.
Mr. Curtis. How far out of town was it to the farm ?
Mr. Windhorst. Well, it ran from 6 to 15 miles.
Mr. Curtis. It was not just one piece of land ?
Mr. Windhorst. No.
Mr. Curtis. How many brothers and sisters do you have?
Mr. Windhorst. I have two sisters.
Mr. Curtis. Are they older than you ?
Mr. Windhorst. One is older and one younger.
Mr. Curtis. Your father still owns the land?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Do you like farming or would yoii rather get into
aviation ?
Mr. Windhorst. I do not loiow ; I have been in aviation only very
little. I do like farming, but they both have their drawbacks ; farm-
ing has its drawback and also aviation. I thought I would like to
try aviation and if I did not like it I would go back.
Mr. Curtis. Where did you say you Avei'e located now ?
Mr. Windhorst. Gleim L. Martin Co. in Baltimore.
PREFERS KANSAS TO MARYLAND
Mr. Curtis. Du you like to live in Maryland l>etter than you do
in Kansas ?
Mr. Windhorst. No ; I cannot say I do.
Mr. Curtis. You had rather be back in Kansas ?
Mr. Windhorst. I would rather be back there.
Mr. Curtis. After you left Wesleyan, where did you go?
Mr. Windhorst. I went back to Wells and worked with my father
in the grocery store and helped him on the farm.
Mr. Curtis. Where did you get your aviation training?
Mr. Windhorst. At Lincoln, Nebr.
Mr. Curtis. When did you go to Lincoln ?
Mr. Windhorst. In February, this year.
Mr. Curtis. How did you happen to decide to go to Lincoln ?
Mr. Windhorst. I just happened to go up there with a friend of
mine, and he was going to see about the school, and while we were there
I got interested and so I stayed, too.
Mr. Curtis. What is the name of that school ?
Mr. Windhorst. It is the Lincoln Aeronautical — it goes by two
names — the Lincoln Flying School, and tlie Lincoln Aeronautical
Institute.
Mr. Curtis. What courses do they offer; just flying? Or do they
offer other aviation trainins?
INTERSTATE iMTGRATION 3571
>'ARIETY OF THAINING COURSES
Mr. Windhorst. There is a great deal of training on the ground and
aviation mechanics. There is a 3-month course, and also an 8-week
€ourse in sheet metal, and also a 3-month course in sheet metal ; and you
«an also take drafting and engineering.
Mr. Curtis. How long has that school been organized ; do you know ?
Mr. Windhorst. I do not know how long it has been organized for
a flying school. Before it was a flying school it used to be a tractor
school.
Mr. Curtis. What course did you take ?
Mr. Windhorst. I took a sheet-metal course, the 8- weeks' sheet-metal
course.
Mr. Curtis. You did not take a flying course ?
Mr. Windhorst. No.
Mr. Curtis. That happened to be the town where Charles Lindbergh
took his training, did it not'^ I guess they told you that.
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. How many weeks did you sav you studied sheet-metal
work?
Mr. Windhorst. Eight weeks.
Mr. Curtis. Now, what did they assign you to when you first went
to work ; or to school ; Avhat did they teach you ?
Mr. Windhorst. Well, the first week they just put us to cutting out
different patterns and different kinds of metal gadgets and for the
different things you have to have on planes.
Mr. Curtis. How many would there be in a class that yt)ii were
instructed in when you were cutting out various patterns ?
Mr. Windhorst. In that sheet-metal class I really do not know.
Mr. Curtis. How many in the room at the time the instructor was
there ; do you recall ?
Mr. Windhorst. There would be about 100, but with several in-
structors.
Mr. Curtis. Several instructors?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. About how many for that group of boys ?
Mr. Windhorst. I think there were about 10.
Mr. Curtis. About 10 instructors?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. What were you able to do with sheet metal by the time
you finished the 8-week course?
Mr. Windhorst. Well, we learned to know about how much you
could bend the metal; if it is thin, it could be bent into certain shapes,
without breaking, and if it is thick, it could not be bent as much. If
it is thin and malleable, it would take quite a radius.
Mr. Curtis. When you had finished your training, you could do
riveting and solder work?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes; we could do riveting and soldering.
Mr. Curtis. Now, what kind of work do you do at the Martin Co. ?
Mr. Windhorst. I have been on the final "assembly. We have to do
some riveting; not so much; it is mostly on the fitting of various parts
on the planes, fitting them together.
3672 INTEKSTATE MIGKATION
Mr, Curtis. Do you woik under someone else ?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. CuETis. Tliere are instructors along- with you. seeing how you do
the work ?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Do you get along all right '^
Mr. Windhorst. Get along fairly well.
Mr. Curtis. Do you feel you are mechanically inclined ?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes; I do. I have })een around thi-eshers, tractors.
and things of that kind all my life.
Mi-. Curtis. Where did you say you went to high school ?
Mr. Windhorst. In Minneapolis, Kans.
Mr. Curtis. Did you take any kind of shop or any metal work?
Mr. Windhorst. I spent my freshman year, the first year I spent
at that kind of study, and I had some woodworking training, but, of
course, the work was not very extensive; it was just a small town.
Mr. Curtis. How did you happen to come east to get work after you
had completed your training?
WESTERN AIRPLANE PLANTS FILLED
Mr. Windhorst. Well, the West seemed to have been pretty well
filled at that time, because there were so many people who went out
there because of lack of work.
Mr. Curtis. In speaking of the West, you mean the west coast i
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. How did it happen you did not stay where you were^
]Mr. Windhorst. Well, the only place offering work in aviation was
at Wichita and they did not have a demand for men right at that
time.
Mr. Curtis. You say you graduated from high school in 1938?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Were most of the boys that you were acquainted with
111 high school employed; have they found work around in their local-
ity where you went to high school ?
Mr. WiNDPioRST. Well, a part of them are still theie, and a part of
them got some work in that locality; some of them are in the Navy:
some are in the Army : they are just scattered around.
Mr. Curtis. Do they all have jobs?
Mr. Windhorst. Well, practically all of them, the biggest portion.
Mr. Curtis. What sort of jobs do they have?
Mr. Windhorst. Well, some of them have work on the farm with
their fathers, or maj'be they have gotten mari-ied and have moved on
to a place themselves.
Mr. Curtis. Those that were interested in mechanical lines : Have
they been able to stay around there?
Mr. Windhorst. No; I do not think so many of them have been
able to get anything in that line, notliiug in aviation work at alU
there are only just two or three of us that I know of that are in that.
Mr. Curtis. Most of the boys were able to get work who attended
this Lincoln school, were they?
I^"TEKSTATE MIGUATION 3673
Mr. Windhorst. Yes; I do not know of anyone wlio lias not <»-otte.ii
work after going there.
Mr. Curtis. There seemed to be an opportunity for the boys who
took training in mechanics?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. But there are no opportunities in Kansas and Ne-
braska or the (jreat Plains States along those lines?
Mr. Windhorst. No; thei-e is not right now. There will l)e aft«r
the^' get through building, and they are doing some building there
now. There are one or two plants in Wichita, Kans., and there is a
plant being moved from Columbus, Ohio, down there. There is also
one in Dallas, Tex., where they are building a big plant. That will
l)e finished, I imagine, in about 6 months, and there will be wf)rk.
JNIr. Curtis. Have you done any flying yourself ?
Mr. Windhorst. No.
Mr. Curtis. Where would you rather live, Maryland or back out
in Kansas?
Mr. Windhorst. I would rather live there.
Mr. Curtis. Rather get back to Kansas ?
Mr. Windhorst. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. You are in favor then of further development of the
aviation industry and other such industries in that area ?
Mr. AViNDHORST. Yes ; I think there is an opportunity for it there.
Mr. Curtis. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Windhorst. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF BOEIS SHISHKIN, DIEECTOR OF EESEARCH,
AMERICAN FEDERATION OF LABOR, WASHINGTON, D. C.
The Chairman. Please state your full name and the capacity in
which you appear, Mr. Shishkin.
Mr. Shishkin. Boris Shishkin, economist, American Federation of
Labor, Washington, D. C.
The Chairiman. I understand that it was the desire of President
Green to appear before this committee in person but that he was
called out of the city.
Mr. Shishkin. That is right, sir. I want to call attention at the
outset to the fact that President Green personally has requested the
American Federation of Labor to devote a great "deal of attention to
this subject, and President Green himself has done a great deal to
initiate the study of it and to secure reports from affiliated organi-
zations, as the interest was indicated by a great deal of discussion that
took place at the last convention of the federation. But, unfortun-
ately, just having returned from the convention and because of the
demands of other organizations, it was absolutely impossible for
President Green to be here today and he requested me to convey to
you his very sincere regret that he was not able to appear.
The Chairman. Mr, Shishkin, I have read your statement and I
think you have a very valuable contribution for the records of this
committee. Now, possibly you do not want to read the entire state-
OQ'J^ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
nient which you have submitted to us, and I suggest that you bring
out the points that you desire and the committee will ask you some
questions at the conclusion. You can just proceed in your own way
at this time. n i-i i
Mr. Shishkin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to read
some parts of the statement and expand on several points touched
upon, particularly those contained in the recommendations. [Read-
ing:]
DEFENSE AGAINST INSECURITY
MigiHtorv workers and their families are refugees from iusecurity. They
must be given priority of consideration in the planning of national defense and
in making provision for readjustment at the end of the emergency.
Defense in terms of military strength is paramount. But what will it profit
the American people to throw an impregnable defense around their borders and
at the same time face defeat in the internal fight against unemployment, priva-
tion, and insecurity? An essential part of our defense problem, therefore, is to
plan and build in such a way that the sources of employment could never run
dry as they have done in the past, that a constant supply of productive activity
is made available to each area and community, thus making possible deep-
rooted, stable growth of a strong and healthy Nation.
In approaching the problem of migratory labor, and our interest,
the interest of organized labor, is equally divided between the prob-
lems faced by the agricultural workers, those engaged in processing,
industrial processing of agricultural products, which is a very sea-
sonal industry and one which gives rise to a great deal of migratory
labor, and that of industry in general, and particularly the migra-
tory problem which has been brought about by the current develop-
ment in connection with national defense.
It may be pointed out, and I think several witnesses have made
and emphasized the point that migratory labor as such is necessary
in our present set-up in our economic organization today; that is,
has been the normal thing and has been the best thing for American
life from the beginning, but it should also be pointed out that the
migratory labor that we know today is primarily the product of
economic pressure, it is a product of the destitution which affects the
lower-income groups that are brought down to a low margin under
our system.
There have been a number of basic developments that have taken
place in this country coincident with the development of our immi-
gration and growth. That is evidenced by the fact that in the past
the family system of production existed throughout the country in
going into frontier fields. Families now have gotten much smaller,
there is not the same economic unit to be found at this time, and as
has been pointed out, that has taken place within the past 25 years.
Because of the development in this direction, it is easier now for
men and women to take up their household effects and move on.
That is due i)artly because we have better methods to get around.
Where it used to take 10 days to travel in order to get some place,
across the wide expanse, it now only takes 1 day.
But we do have the problem that in its entirety according to some
reports — and it is almost impossible to estimate the figures, and per-
haps the social -security figures furni,sh the soundest basis — that &x)me
INTERSTATE .AIIGRATION 3675
4,000,000 persons are now annually migrating;, and that does not take
into account the commuters across State lines.
There is a tremendous part of our population that is shifting and
which should have an ojjportunity to become rooted in the regular
framework of community life. And in that connection I also want
to say that tho,se who are on the move under those pressures are not
imlike those who were under the pressure in the frontier days, which
has characterized American life, and we do not have the frontiers
that existed in our early days. But we do have frontiers : We have
frontiers that are just as significant, economic frontiers, which are to
be found within our own borders and which enables us to supply the
source of employment in economic fields, and increase the purchasing-
power, and in our own groups of workers, in these economic areas,,
are the frontiers in which we have the greatest room for expansion.
And, I believe in the solution of the problem we still have a great
way to go yet. [Reading :]
Men, women, and children forced to take to the road ui tlieir search for jobs
and homes and in their struggle to survive, represent an enormous waste of our
human resources and a drain upon the health and vitality of the Nation. In
the past few years we have done much in the field of soil and forest conserva-
tion, but we have not done enough to assure conservation of human lives from
the blight of unemployment, of economic shifts and instability.
These millions of people, forced to search for new homes and new jobs, are
so near the ragged edge — with total annual earnings ranging between around
$300 and $700 per family — that the slightest set-back or misfortune is certain
to push them into utter destitution.
And, some of the reports show an income of as low as $100. But
on these reports — and I must say that the Tolan committee has
brought together and amassed an amount of valuable information on
this most difficult subject, with which to make the study that we now
have before us, so we have a pretty well rounded out idea of what is
an essentially human problem of the family in thig economic period,,
that has to be shouldered by thousands of families. [Reading :]
DEFENSE PRODUCTION STRAINS RESOURCES
To the plain public duty of remedying these conditions and of removing their
causes is now added another imperative and pressing requirement. Defense
organization and defense production will strain to the limit the resources of
the American people. The defense needs place upon our Congress and our Gov-
ernment an exacting duty to make, in a democratic way, an urgent and ade-
quate provision of remedies and facilities to end the idle ebb and flow of unem-
ployed job seekers and to direct it into channels of normal productive activity.
And, I believe that the organization of facts concerning employ-
ment, to provide information telling people where to go, a provision
for making explicit the information-secured from employers as to the
possible opportunities that ma}^ be offered may assist a great deal in
the solution of the immediate task, that is the practical problem con-
fronting us today, and the possibility of a workable solution in the
near future. [Reading:]
A further problem, one which in time will prove to be the most imix»rtant
of all, is also extremely vital in connection with migratory labor and defense.
The American Federation of Labor calls upon Congress to focus its attention
3676
INTEllSTATK MIGRATION
npou this problem now. It is the problem of the aftermath, with which we will
be faced following the defense activities.
How soon we will see it end it is difficult to foretell, but it may end
very soon, it may happen over a period of 2 years, 3 years, or 5 years,
but when the day comes it will come so suddenly that American in-
dustry and labor will not know what hit it. And to sit by and make
n>o provision for it now will mean it will be most too late then. We
have got to begin now to plan and provide for the greatest crisis
which, I believe, America faces, and that crisis is the aftermath, fol-
lowing the emergency, one of readjustment. [Reading:]
While much migration of industrial labor is now taking place due to expan-
sion, redistribution, and reallocation of defense production, the time is not so
far removed when defense activity will be discontinued. At that time labor
foresees a crucial test of our ability as a democratic people to assure unbroken
continuity in oui- ways and methods of production and of our standards of woi'k
and living.
When the time comes new currents of labor migration are bound to be set off.
There will be return flows of migration, new stranded groups of workers, new
ghost towns, new distressed areas — unless immediate provision against these
things in every phase of the defense program is made. No matter how urgent
the problem, whether it is one of defense housing or defense production capa-
city, the action needed is never too urgent to prevent its being tested in terms
of our post-emergency requirements.
I believe that the Defense Commission and several Government
agencies have taken specific action concerning this problem, against
the day of what will happen following the emergency, when the date
arrives, whe?i we will have to go back to normalcy'. [Reading:]
rKACETIIME EMPLOYMENT PROBLEMS
lint, in addition, study and planning must be begun now of the needs and
conditions of th*; days we are approaching with deadly certainty. To what
productive peat-etime use can be put the costly equipment and machinery now
being installed to make warcraft, shells, tanks, and guns? To what peacetime
use can be put the skills of thousands of workers who are now being trained
for defense production? Are the billions now being spent for defense produc-
tion to be used for factories and equipment which can be given full utilization
in normal peacetime production, or is this vast new productive establishment
condemned to become an abandoned skeleton and a silent monument to our
intense but improvident effort? Are the men aiul women workers now being
given intensive training and now being urged to achieve the utmost in their
technical ability to be given an opportunity to make a full contribution to the
peacetime production of the Nation, or are they to be thrown back upon the
scrap heap of unemployed for whom private industry has no further use?
From the standj)oint of ordinary living, this problem of bringing
into industry large reserAes of workers who had training before,
wlio have had to learn some different kind of training, but who have
now been retrained, and who have to be trained in some skilled work
for some particular job, is, of course, a most serious one. The rate
of accession, as reflected in the unemployment figures, is about 500,000
woikers a month. A half million workers are being brought iiit-o
industry. Just what the future trend of that rate might be is diffi-
cult to foresee, but probably it will remain approximately the same;
unemployment will be reduced at about that rate. The question is:
Are they being trained for specific productive industry? Will they
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3677
fit in, and to what extent will they fit in peacetime production — if
they are beino- trained for work that is still temporary, if their em-
ployment is, you mio-ht say, like that on cantonments which may be
used temporarily^ for housing the Army and then be i)ut into disuse or
reduced to dilapidated structures? [Reading:]
As a people we can give coustructive and positive answers to these ques-
tions only if, without a moment's delay, wc go to work on the complex problems
underlying them. Only when we are fully equipped with facts and understand-
ing of every implication of the problems shall we be able to forestall a post-
emergency crisis through equitable and democratic met hods without having
to resort to compulsion and regimentation.
I want to say, as we face a problem which I believe is an ex-
tremely important one, that much of the interstate labor migration
today may be termed blind migration. Workers and their families
travel hundreds and thousands of miles, placing their faith of finding
i'mployment on a vague rumor or deliberately false report greatly ex-
aggerating the employment needs which often do not exist at all.
It is of primary hnportance, therefore, to assure visibility of em-
ployment opportunities.
I think that one way to approach the problem — there is one solu-
tion that is a practical one — should be to attempt to provide advance
job inventories. We have a number of employment agencies ; we can
call on the local employment service, the State local employment
service, and the Fedei-al Emplojnnent Service and coordinate the
efforts of these organizations. But one of the most important things
is to- |jrovide advance job inventories, and to provide advance in-
formation on the prospective employment oi)i:)ortunities, and in-
dustry cooperating with these organizations will be able to arrive
at a sound and effective basis for the placement of workers on jobs.
MISLEADING INFUUMATION DISTKTI3UTED
We have had the maximum movement of industrial workers as
well as agricultural workers, based on the recommendation or re-
ports of a few workers needed, that have traveled a long distance
from tlie point of origin, assuming an increased economic problem.
We have seen that happen repeatedly, time and time again. It hap-
pened in Detroit in 1933 and 1934^ where thousands, hundreds of
thousands, of workers moved into Detroit when one of the factories
was opening, increasing a difficult problem which the comnmnity
already Avas confronted with. Sometimes this has been the result
of employers taking advantage of the number of people unemployed
throughout the country ; and at other times the residt of employment
agencies. And in fairness I must say also sometimes it has been
done by some of the agencies of the Federal Government charged
with the responsibility of defense. One of the instances of extreme
importance is illustrated in the Frankfort Arsenal, near Phila-
delphia, where there was an opportunity for 200 skilled workers, and
the reports were made, statements were made officially that there
were 2,000 workers needed. They came from surrounding States
and onlv 1 out of 20 workers were hired.
3678
IxNTER STATE MIGR ATK )N
Tliat was a tremendous waste of time and expense for people who
are employed, who secure temporary jobs, and who come back dis-
illusioned.
Then there is the practice of bidding for a particular type of
skilled worlvman. In some of the navy yards the practice has
occurred of callintr for first-class mechanics when the job that is
actually being done represents a third-class mechanics pay. The
reason 'is that a lower skill is being offered than the first-class me-
chanic commands, and when the first-class mechanic ascertains the
rate that is to be paid he finds he is no better off, or perhaps worse
otf than he was in the community from which he comes.
Now statements have been made to the eifect there is a labor shortage
of skilled laborers. There is not a labor shortage, but if in the defense
program such practice is followed and first-class skilled mechanics are
taken, of com-se, that reduces the nmnber available. And this program
should be undertaken as promptly as possible in cooperation with
organized labor and the industries.
The American Federation of Labor is ready to oifer any facility not
only of the national organization but also of the State federations of
labor, the Central Labor Union, in securing men who have been trained
over long periods of years, in working out this problem. I feel sure
that they all realize the long-range problem and am also sure they
will cooperate to the fullest extent in reducing labor migration.
Another remedy which I believe is imperative is one to which I have
given a great deal of thought as a member of the Department of Labor
Conunittee on Private Emph)yment Agencies, which has studied the
problem over a period of months during this year, and has reached
some conclusion and has some recommendations to make, to submit
to the Congress. I do not want to go into details of the specific recom-
mendations that will be made by the Division of Labor concerning the
legislation, but I do want to develop the thought which I think can
be of use to this committee in its recommendations.
RECOMMENDATION OF FEDERAL LICENSING
One of the recommendations is to provi,de for [reading] :
Federal liceusiug of all private employment agencies and agencies operating
across the State lines, for the purpose of preventing fraudulent misrepresentation
of job opportunities, usurious fees, and all other illicit and speculative traffic iu
human labor, as well as regulation of interstate job advertising, vphich would
put an end to many vicious practices by labor cojitractors, employment agents,
and unscrupulous employers, practices which perpetuate migration and suffering
of the unemployed workers.
As an illustration, a few days ago there was an advertisement run by
an employer in Tennessee. The advertisement appeared in Baltimore,
Washington, and Atlanta, and other States in the South and Middle
West. The advertisement Avas for a number of plumbers. Of course,
the reaction on the part of the people in each community will be to
travel a great distance to seek some sort of a job.
Now, that illustrates the type of abuse in interstate commerce wliich
the Congress has the power to stop and it should be stopped. Private
INTERSTATE :\II(4i;ATIOX 3679
employment agencies have been fleecing not only the poor niigTant
workers, but also fleecing employers, in demanding exorbitant fees.
I believe a regulation of this sort, a regulation that need not be
detailed a great deal. Avill be sufficient to accomplish a great deal and
stop the unnecessary flow of labor migration. [Reading :]
No preventive i-emedies cau be effective unless tlie economic pressure forcing
migration is removed. Reducing inequities in income by increasing tlie purchas-
ing power of low-income workers is fundamental if the goal is to be achieved.
Extension of coverage of the minimum-wage and maximum-hour standards of the
wage-and-hour law and extension of safeguards of collective bargaining rights
to workers now excluded from protection against substandard labor conditions
and unfair labor practices are strongly urged by labor as bringing into operation
long-range stabilizing forces.
There is another phase of the problem I want to touch upon which
I believe is important in this connection. There has been a tendency
during the past 2 years, a tremendous effort, for exemption from
coverage over the labor legislation of workers engaged in industrial
production, in processing of the products that have to do with
agricultural commodities.
In dealing with this problem, those who have actually studied it,
and looked at the facts and looked at the source of pressure for the
exemptions, discovered that the public impression was made wide-
spread that this had to do with agricultural work and that their
employees in packing houses and canneries and in all pha.ses of
processing of agriculttual products are engaged in industrial oper-
ations; they are not in agricultural work, and the exemption is not
justified; the exemption is not one which comes within the intent
of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, and the investigation
.showed there was no evidence to bear out the contention; and there
was no justification for the exemption.
KXIOIPTIONS UNDEK FAIR LABOR STANDARDS ACT
In the act there are two sets of exemptions, one for seasonal opera-
tions and one for perishable products. They are all for 14 weeks.
In the ruling of the Wage and Hour Division that has granted an
exemption possible to apply consecutive!)^. If you have one 14
weeks" exemption in one section and another 14 weeks' exemption
in another section, and if you apply that to different projects in the
same plants, the workers may have no maximum hours. If there is
a week seasonal element and all the work is put into one short space
of time that means one worker is employed long hours, up to TO,
and in some instances 78 or 80 hours, and unemployed the rest of
the time, and he is given an opportunity to find another job, but
Tie deprives another worker of the opportunity of employment there.
It is very important to provide basic standards and to have the
minimum wage and maximum hours provision of the act extended
to all these classes of workers. Extension of workmen's compensa-
tion coverage to temporary and casual workers, and to employments
now excluded, is very necessary. [Reading:]
Undoubtedly, the most outstanding means of stabilizing residence in a com-
munity for low-income workers and in reducing pressure to migrate is the
3(3§(J INTERSTATE EMIGRATION
provision of housing, rural as well as urban, under the programs of the
United States Housing Authority and Farm Security Administration.
(Continuation and expansion of the program of the local housing authorities
organized in some 500 connnunities under the United States Housing Act can
do more than any single undertaking in providing good homes and making
possil)le normal family life to millions of workers' families.
With the aid and guidance of the Depai-tment of Agriculture, the rural
housing programs of the United States Housing Act provides good hous-
ing at minimum rents on the farms, making eventual home ownership possible.
This program has been enthusiastically received by farm owners and tenant
farmers alike in such States as Georgia and South Carolina, where it has
already been inaugurated. This practical program reaching and giving as-
sistance to our lowest income farmers and providing for decent but simple
housing lor their families must be assured continuation through The authori-
zation of additional funds under the United States Housing Act.
WOUI.D COKTIXIE F.VRM SKCl RITY ADMINISTRATION CAiMP PROGRAM
To meet the most immediate needs of workers who have already become
migrants, the American F(>d(Mation of Labor has successfully urged adequate
appropriations of the continual ion of the migratory labor camps program
of the Farm Security Administratiim. This program which is so necessary to
meet the requirements of migrant workers and which has done so much to
alleviate the suffering of migratory farm families should be further expanded.
In addition, the American Federation of Labor has also offered
strong opposition to the proposed curtaihnent of the farm tenant
purchase program. This program, autliorized by the Bankhead-
Jones Act, during the first 2 years of its operation made available
$35,000,000 for tenant purchase of farm land, including $6,500,000
spent for construction of rural housing under the plan. It is very
simple construction.
Many thousands of fai'uiers, sharecroppers and their families,
w^ho have been forced oil' the land during the past decade, turned into
migrants, drifting from one part of the country into another and
fi'om city to city in search of jobs and in hope of economic security.
The Bankhead-Jones program, by making available loans for farm
purchase of tenants, has proved most effective in checking this trend,
by anchoring farm families on the land it becomes possible for them
to own and cultivate, and by nuiking provision for the construction
of simple but adequate homes in good repair.
There are several other phases I should like to cover, many of
^^hicll have been covei'ed in detail already.
In addition to housing, ]n-ovision should be made for health and
medical care of the families of migratory workers. There are many
})]iases of public assistance which if extended and properly and
uniformly administered Avould provide not only relief to migratory
labor but also remedy of the conditions which perpetuate it. Such
a program should be provided as a matter of relief also to the extent
to which the migratoiy labor problem, represents continuance of the
difficulty. Provision particularly to take care of the children of
migratory workers and to make sure that those children will have
proper medical care are particularly important in the matter of
health because those who may be infected with disease may not be
able to secure a remedy to cure that disease because they are migrants
and because they have no means of getting direct health protection
INTKli STATE MIGRATION 3681
when they are roaming around the country and are liable to spread
disease in a community.
AMERICAN TEDEKATION OF LABOR HACKS <iUANT«-lN-AID
The American Federation of Labor suggests that to this end your
committee recommend to Congress a Federal program of grants-in-
aid to States and of uniform State standards of assistance which
would niake it possible to deal with the pi'oblem nationally. Most
communities left to cope with the problem single-handed and relying
upon their resources alone can find no real solution.
As the result a wall of resistance laws is being erected in the
cities, counties, and States to ward off the indigent migrants, to
conserve expenditures, and to fence off the established residences
of the connnunity by thick barbed wire of resident requirements and
other protective measures. An individual community or State, deal-
ing with the problem unaided and realizing its inability to find even
a partial remedy tends to take defensive rather than remedial mea-
sures and to ward off rather than to aid.
It may be that one State will w^ork out a possible pi-ogram under
present conditions that will not solve the problem.
Mr. Parsons. You would not recommend the abolition of settle-
ment laws?
Mr. Shishilin. I believe a recommendation to provide for dealing
with settlement laws and to bring all States to the same basis would
be a very urgent measure to take care of that.
Mr, Parsons. You would not reconnnend a complete abolition of
settlement laws ?
Mr. SmsHitiN. Of course, settlement laws differ from State to
State. There are some provisions in some States which are part
of the settlement laws which would be done away with if the set-
tlement law as such were completely abolished.
Settlement laws are the result of an era long gone. The basic
restrictions of those laws now have to be eliminated and replaced
with provisions that realistically take care of the problem of labor
migi-ation.
There are souie laws that overlap between the restrictions on the
income of workers as between one State and another State. Those
things have to be solved.
POSSIBLE SETTLEMENT PROGRAM
Mr, Parsons. Of course. Congress has no power to limit the restric-
tions of the States as to settlement laws, but if we have a program
of grants-in-aid to States, Congress could set up as a qualification
certahi types of settlement law, and we might gain uniformly in that
respect.
Mr. SiiisiiKiN. That is correct.
Mr. Parsons. Your recommendation is for a Federal program of
aid to the States?
Mr. Shishkin. That is riirht.
3682 INTERSTATE MKIKATIOX
Mr. Parsons. Woiikl you include local relief agencies, or would
that be for the care of migrants not ordinarily residents of the
State?
Mr. Shishkin. It seems to me such a program has to go down to
the local communities to be effective. I think with the cooperation
of the States a program can be worked out, and I think such a
program can be worked out to bring relief to the local community,
because one community might be overburdened with one problem
with which they have to deal, and must rely upon machinery which
represents the support of the entire Nation. It has to fit in with
the program of the entire Nation.
Mr. Parsons. If Congress should create such an organization, what
department of the Government should it be placed under ?
Mr. Shishkin. I believe that to the extent that this is a funda-
mental problem affecting workers, and affecting the employment
situation, which is a problem that the Division of Labor Standards
has given a great deal of study to — I believe that the administration
could be most effective if placed in the Department of Labor. I
think that that agency, charged with those duties, would be the
agency in which that activity should be placed.
Mr. Parsons. We have had various recommendations. Some recom-
mend that a new category be set up in the Social Security Board,
where grants-in-aid to the States could be handled as are grants-in-
aid for old-age assistance.
The suggestion was made the other day that the administration
of it might be placed there, with a joint board made up of repre-
sentatives of the Social Security Board, of the Children's Bureau,
of the Department of Education and the Department of Labor,
and that they might be united in one coordinated groujx with repre-
sentatives from tlie Agricultural Doi)artment looking after farm
security, so that the entire program would be coordinated and each
department of Government having a present function, more or le.'^s,
in such a program, could operate in a coordinated fashion.
Mr. SmsHiaN. I think that suggestion has some merit in this
respect, that that would place the operation of the program in rela-
tionship with the Employment Service, v,hich is in the Federal
Security Agency at the present time.
But I think some of the other phases of the program also re<-oni-
mend its being placed in the Department of Labor. But that is an
administrative problem, as to which I believe your committee, hav-
ing heard so many points of view and so much excellent evidence
as to the actual administrative operation of the suV)ject, must supply
the final answer.
COORDINATED IMJARD SUCiGESTKD
Mr. Parsons. This has impressed me, that a coordinated board,
representative of the various bureaus and departments interested in
this problem, might be the best answer, with the administrative head
probably under Social Security.
Mr. Shishkin. I think that would be a very good solution, but
T might add that in providing such a solution for tliis ty]:>e of proli-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3683
lem it would be extremely important to be assured also that there
would be an advisory and consultative representative on such an
agency for labor, because labor meets this problem at first hand
and is most directly affected by it.
I think with such representation a great deal can be accomplished
for the improvement of administration, and also for the protection
of the labor interests and labor standards.
Mr. Parsons. There is no question but what a representative of
labor should be on such a coordinated board.
The Chairman. We have the Interstate Commerce Commission to
regulate and protect the free flow of commodities between the States.
Mr. Shishkin. That is right.
The Chairman. And as we know, that is a powerful organization.
Do you not think it is about time we had something to protect human
interests ?
Mr. Shishkin. Very much so. Congressman. And I think that
is a problem that can be tackled at the present time and something
on which work can be started.
As far as a study of the problem is concerned, there is room for a
continuing committee in the executive branch of the Government.
So far as technical experts are concerned, we have a number of
competent men, some of whom have appeared before your com-
mittee, men who have gone into the question in great detail and
who have presented excellent evidence, and they are competent to
present the social and economic phases of it.
I think the subject has come to a point now where further study
is necessary, and action is even more necessary, and that is why I
hope this committee will have some very definite recommendations
to make in the near future so that at the next session of Congress
there will be a program which will have the full support of the
American Federation of Labor.
PROBLEM OF UNEMPLOYMENT
I have a couple of more points in that connection. One of the things
I wanted to mention in this connection, for the consideration of the
committee, is a project concerning a problem that is broader than the
migratory-worker problem itself. That is the problem of unemploy-
ment. The migratory worker is a product of lack of purchasing power,
which is fundamentally unemployment, to a large extent.
Mr. Parsons. But there are two classes of those workers. We have
found that there is quite a large group of migrant agricultural workers
that are really bringing more revenue into the family than the average
agricultural worker.
Then we have the other group that is constantly on the move, seek-
ing employment, and which often becomes entirely destitute. Migra-
tion is quite desirable and is absolutely necessary under the present
system of agricultural production, especially in connection with vege-
tables, fruits, and things of that kind. But the thing that we are pri-
marily concerned with is the large group of destitute people going from
State to State.
260370— 41— pt.
3584 INTERSTATE AlIGRATION
Mr. Shishkin. That is correct. Earlier in my statement I said that
labor migration, as such, under the present system and organization is
normal, and with the developments in industry such as have taken
place, some substantial measure of migratory labor will continue, and
it is clearly a thing to be expected, as such.
Mr. Parsons. Not only in agriculture, but in industry, also?
Mr. Shishkin. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. We are being faced with that right now.
In the national-defense program, in finding the necessary type of
skilled workers to go into high-speed production immediately, that will
naturally dislocate a large number of families in the United States.
Then, if that should be suddenly stopped, there will be a further dis-
location, and they must redistribute themselves, or migrate to their
original homes, or somewhere else. So. we are having and will continue
to have a thorough test of that, to meet the needs of an industrial
program.
Mr. Shishkin. This will probably extend further than that, because
at the end of defense production there will be a return flow, which will
provide a further dislocation and will have a tremendous effect on
workers and on the communities. That is one of the most vital things
to give attention to at this particular time.
Referring to the basic causes of unemployment and to the enormous
flow of migratory labor, having millions of workers on the road, I
think we all agree that unemployment, to the extent that it does seem
to be a danger, whenever we go back to the normal extent of unem-
ployment within the framework of our activity now, will be as large or
larger than when we started defense production.
Our unemployment in recent months was around 8,000,000 workers,
and we have probably employed anothei- million since then.
Mr. Parsons. Of what ages are these people?
Mr. Shishkin. These are of the employable age. They do not in-
clude children under 16. >
One of the proposals in connection with the financing of the defense
production has in it attempts to deal with the unemployment problem,
and in connection with v at w^e have to offer as one of the major
measures the direct loan system from Federal funds to make this
possible. The Reconstruction Finance Corporation has operated on
that basis over a period of years. AYe are now hnancing industries,
especially the expansion of defense industries, through direct loans
of Federal money to industry, and I think what we propose could
be done by the utilization directly of the funds from the accumulation
of savings in the banks, through local institutions, which are not
loaning private funds, which really are the crux of the unemployment
problem. The lack of investment loans last year was admittecl to be
a large source of trouble that prevented expansion. Of course, such a
loan for industrial expansion is necessary as an innnediate method,
but it will come back to us in the form of taxes and economic burdens
later on.
utilize private investment
And the suggestion is a simple one. Y^hy not, instead of making
use of this great accumulation of funds, private investment funds
intp:kstatk migkation 3685
that are there, but as to which investors are not willing to assume the
risk of the uncertainty of the situation, give that stimulus and make
possible the utilization of that money under a plan, under the Recon-
struction P'inance Corporation, based on the simple principle of the
Federal Housing Administration of insurance, to a certain extent,
depending on the amount of the risk and the assurance of the produc-
tive possibilities over a period of time as a result of these loans, made
by a Federal agency, and have that administered by the Reconstruction
Finance Corporation, which has a large staff of investigators, and
have the Federal Government see to it that each extension is given
the assurance of the Federal Government being satisfied that this
can be sustained on an operating basis.
That will make possible the expansion of industry on a sound
basis. The Federal Government, in return, will have the assurance
of continued operation, in the first place, and, second, that the ex-
pansion is not of the type of the runaway shop, and will maintain
basic minimum standaixls of competition and minimum labor stand-
ards in the industry, so it will be a part of the industry. It will not
be a destructive expansion ; it will be an expansion that will be a help,
and it will assure a stable growth of employment opportunities.
Mr. Parsons. Then that would be rather setting up a reserve for
the future, would it not? The savings are a reserve" for the indi-
vidual for the future. You spoke of savings. It amounts to savings
in hours being guaranteed by the Government on the same basis?
Mr. Shisiikin. That is right.
]SIr. Parsons. The suggestion has been made to me, coming from
Illinois, that we ought to have in that State a tax on oil, or on the
oil industry, that it has taken our natural resources away, and that
when the pools are eventually exhausted, and that great wealth has
gone, we should have a reserve fund set up now by taxing the pro-
duction of that basic mineral, just as some of the western States,
after the large production had gone did set up such a reserve going to
the State, for the State to use as a reserve for future needs of the
State, after the industry had gone, '
The reconnnendation you are making ■ somewhat in line with
that principle, not only setting up a reserAe for present operations,
but for the future.
Mr. Shishkin. It is basically that, although, of course, as in con-
nection with the Federal Housing Administration there is no actual
reserve set up as such. It is simply an authorization to them for
protection, for the assumption of that large risk,
Mr. Parsons. But it also can be used as a revolving fund to help
others.
Mr. Shishkin. That is right.
Mr. Parsons, And you would suggest that in comiection with mak-
ing such private loans directly to the individual workers?
Mr. Shishkin. That is right. One of the great problems is thsit
there is a great accumulation of investors' funds, and the investor is
unwilling to invest without the assurance that the operation will be
continuous, and if he has such an assurance by the Federal Govern-
ment he will be willing to take the risk, and the industry will be able to
3ggg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
go out, as needed, into self-sustaining work, which can be developed,
and by the development of a system of that kind we can do away with
the great burden of debt and taxation imposed by the necessary
financing of the defense program.
MIGRANT STUDY BY AMERICAN FEDERATION OF LABOR
In conclusion, I want to point out that the sixtieth annual conven-
tion of the American Federation of Labor, held at NeAv Orleans last
month, has given extended consideration to the problem of migratory
labor and has authorized the executive council of the American Fed-
eration of Labor to make a thorough study "of the problem presented
by the migratory and transient workers."
When there is any further information which results from that and
which is brought forth from our affiliated unions, we will be glad to
-place that at the disposal of the committee at any time.
The convention also voted unanimously that such measures be pre-
pared as will safeguard and protect the social and civic rights and
welfare of the migratory workers with the view that a permanent and
workable solution to this broad problem, reestablishing tlie migratory
workers in an economically sound community life, be found.
The problem of the migratory worker has become a challenge to the
entire community and is of vital concern to organized labor. The
American Federation of Labor actively supported the authorization
by Congress of House Resolution No. 63, which made the work of the
Tolan committee possible. Your committee has already established a
notable record. Labor is confident that a constructive program will
result when its work is concluded.
Mr. Parsons. How do you arrive at your fig-ures on unemployment?
We have had submitted various statistics that vary from one to six
or seven million. I should like to know how you arrive at your esti-
mate of the present number of unemployed.
DETERMINING NUMBER OF UNEMPLOYED
Mr. Shishkin. We have published a description of our method,
which I will be glad to submit for the record.
I might say there are perhaps four basic estimates that are con-
sidered as sound, of which ours holds the middle ground. The Alex-
ander Hamilton Institute, of New York, has carried an estimate for
a long period of time which gives a higher figure than ours, and the
figure of the National Industrial Conference Board is lower than ours.
Some difference is due to the definition of the term "unemployed."
If you count the Work Projects Administration worker as employed,
he is employed in Government work, but for our purposes we are
counting those employeees normally in private industry.
Mr. Parsons. That is from age i6 ?
Mr. Shishkin. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. To age 65?
Mr. Shishkin. No; all of those in the labor market seeking em-
ployment opportunities.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3687
For our purpose it is necessary to find out how many of those have
gone to private employment, and that is why we define our unemploy-
ment, so as to include those working- on Work Projects Administration
projects and other public projects of that kind.
Mr. Parsons. Would you say, as of October 1, that number was
7,000,000?
Mr. Shishkin. Our approximate estimate for October 1 is about
8,100,000, and with a rate of reemployment of about 500,000, the figure
for that month was a little over 7,000,000, on the basis of our estimate.
At the rate it is going now, by December 1941 we will have only one
and one-half million, on the basis of the present estimate.
That does not mean that there is all there will be, because the defense
industry only draws in one particular kind of worker.
Mr. Parsons. But their employment is at least for part time, whereas
other workers are employed for full time ?
Mr. Shishkin. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. About how many are there of unemployables who are
idle?
Mr. Shishkin. Of course, the term "unemployable" is a very difficult
one to pin down. I have been told that Chinese representatives in
this country have said that there could not be any such thing, because
deaf, dumb, and blind men in China, employed in the Chinese baths,
who can only do such a thing as scratch the backs of customers, are
considered employed workers. The housewife is considered employed
by them.
Also, there is a great deal of difference in the approach. If you
define it on the census basis of those unemployed and unable to work
because they are handicapped, I think the figure would be quite small.
In 1929, when, in some respects, we had persons unemployed who
accepted financial benefit, there were about a million and a half un-
employed. But of those there were a number of bona fide unem-
ployed. Some might be unemployables. As President Green has
frequently said, to determine the extent of that would be a very
valuable thing.
Mr. Parsons. If we were to prescribe the same regulations for the
public at large as during the 1920's, if you had used the same descrip-
tion of people as to employment, we would probably have had four or
five million unemployed during the 1920's, on the same basis?
Mr. Shishkin. No; I think that is a high figure; I do not believe
we would have had that many, on the basis of our estimate.
PRODUCTION AT PEAK
Mr. Parsons. But production is at the highest peak. Someone made
the statement before the committee the other day that in private in-
dustry production is at the highest peak in the history of the country.
Mr. Shishkin. Yes, that is correct; but I think this is one of the
very significant facts in connection with that that should be on the
lecord of this committee, and that is that production does not utilize
a full number of workers.
Mr. Parsons. Why not?
3688
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Shishkin. Because technological changes cause changes in the
method of production, because industry is now more efficient than it
has been. Take the 1919 factory production as 100 productivity, and
you will find that in 1939 that figure rose to 228, or an increase of 128
percent. That is a tremendous increase, and it gives a clue to the
comparative situation today.
Mr. Parsons. In other words, one person was putting out 128 per-
cent more in productivity than the same man was doing in 1919 ?
Mr. Shishkin. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. Would you say that that is where a large portion of
tlie unemployment comes from ?
Mr. Shishkin. A great deal of the unemployment is technological
unemployment. Of course, appraising that is difficult, because it
does make possible industrial expansion, irrespective of some of the
people who have been thrown out. Some of those changes eliminate
skills, so that those Avorkers in technological unemployment have no
further place in the business.
Mr. Parsons. A significant statement was made before the com-
mittee the other day to the effect that although the steel output was
so much higher than at another given time that there were still
38,000 steel workers still unemployed because of technological
changes.
Mr. Shishkin. Those are very important in the type of some steel
production in which large crews of workers that have been employed
are now almost completely eliminated.
Mr. Parsons. Has the American Federation of Labor ever recom-
mended a tax on machinery ?
Mr. Shishkin. No ; it has not. It has opposed a tax on machinery.
We do not conceive that that will be the solution. We are a nation
surrounded by nations which also have technological improvements.
If we slow down our own pace we would only handicap:) ourselves,
and that would not be a farsighted thing to do.
Mr. Parsons. If we were at peace and all nations were on a pro-
ductive basis, with free interchange of goods of every kind,, with
the low labor standards in other countries, could America still com-
pete in the importation of agricultural and industrial goods?
Mr. Shishkin. It depends on what nations are involved. Soine
nations will not have any agricultural goods, and competition with
other markets would present special problems there.
In view of the present situation, as far as agricultural goods and
industrial plant products are concerned, I think in a very short time
America will be able to supply the world with agricultural and
industrial goods and will be the source of the supply of agricultural
and industrial commodities of the world, regardless of prices, because
it will take years to bring back the productive economy of Europe.
Mr. Parsons. And provide enough money for rehabilitation?
LABEL AMERICAN GOODS
Mr. Shishkin. As far as the market is concerned, I think that is
true, and, of course, I think it will have the burden of supplying
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3689
some of it without any such loans, and I think if any such supplies
are sent abroad, whether on an economic basis of purchase or not, to
relieve the population of Europe, I think every article and every
pound of food sent there should be stamped on the face of it
''Made in the United States of America, a product of democracy,"
and if the people of Elurope find those things comino- to them from
a democracy, that will be a tremendous antidote to the tons of propa-
t^anda from a dictatorshij).
The Chairman. Mr. Shishkin, you have made a statement which
I consider a very valuable contribution to the committee in its con-
sideration of this subject.
Your position is that we cannot stop this mioration between States,
and you do not want to stop it, but you think it should be carefully
considered, and if possible reasonably controlled migration.
Mr, Shishkin. That is right.
The Chairman. You appear today representing the American
Federation of Labor in the consideration of this great national prob-
lem. Does it not appear strange to you that for over a century and
a half of the existence of this problem practically nothing has been
done about it except what some of the States have done; that the
P'ederal Government has done practically nothing about the prob-
lem ?
Mr. Shishkin. It is an amazing thing. Of course, w^e have been
a nation on the move, and have been caught in the sweep of our
own growth.
The Chairman. I think if we can give the people authentic in-
formation from the Federal Government as to the extent of the jobs
and an inventory of the jobs, we have made a pretty good start.
^^ery briefly, I want to ask you this question : In what way do
you, representing the American Federation of Labor, get informa-
tion as to migration?
Mr. Shishkin. We have, of course, a network of some 800 central
labor unions, which report on the situations in local communities,
and periodically we send questionnaires in reference to various urgent
problems, that are framed on the basis of reports which come in.
The Chairman. Are those reports limited to union members ?
Mr. Shishkin. No; because in this particular problem you can
very easily see that the problem of the migration of workers, w-hether
union or nonunion, hits practically every labor market in a given
community, so the reports come covering all phases of the problem.
Also, we have a substantial organization of workers in Florida and
California who are engaged in processes in which there is highly
seasonal production, and in which there is a great deal of migration
among the workers themselves.
Mr. Sparkman. I gather from your statement that you do not con-
sider that there is a shortage of skilled labor at the present time.
Mr. Shishkin. There is a shortage in some few cases. In some
plants where there is a large number of employees there may be a
shortage of some skilled labor. But in the basic operations there
is no sTiortage at the present time.
3ggQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkman. I note your statement relating^ to the control of
labor agents or private employment agencies. You said they were
making more or less of a racket out of it, taking money from the
employee and also from the employer.
I know nothing about this except what I have been getting in
letters, but there has been a great deal of complaining about the labor
situation among all of these defense developments, where laborers
have gone to get employment but have been informed that they
have to be a member of a'labor union. When they applied for mem-
bership, ordinarily, to come in, they would have to pay $40, $50, or
$60, as an initiation fee, or pay a great part of it, and in many
instances it has been charged that the amount of the initiation fee
had been sharply advanced since these projects have been started.
I loiow nothing about it except from letters. If that is true,
would you not think that that is an imposition upon the laborers,
the same as a private employment agency which should be curbed?
LABOR UNION FEES
Mr. Shishkin. I am glad you asked me that question, because that
was one of the questions considered at our convention, and one that is
difficult to answer under normal circumstances, because the answer is
largely supplied by the headlines, and the headlines are usually far
away from the facts.
In the first place, the high initial fees are a result of this situation.
National unions, in some instances, set the initiation fees nationally.
In the majority of unions the locals are placed on a more or less
autonomous basis so far as the setting of fees is concerned.
But the problem has developed in several isolated, few instances
which have been given a lot of publicity. To prevent it the unions
have immediately taken steps to correct that particular situation. As
to the $40, $50, and $80 fees, I think that reflects one instance where a
company's local charged $80. The fees do not run that high in the
building trades. There are unions that charge a $25 fee to mechanics
whose weekly wage runs more than $25 a week. If his work is con-
tinuous and he goes somewhere else, he is given a transfer card and he
gets the benefit of that. I think that $25 fee is reasonable, but I think
those higher fees are unreasonable and unfair.
Let me give you one example. The president of the Hod Carriers'
Union has reported to the convention that he has set up a committee
that is under the international, which assumed full control, although
previously the local unions have had authority to set up their own
initiation fees, and from now on they have given the right to the
international to set those fees. In that union you may be sure there
will be no exorbitant initiation fees on defense projects. Action of
similar kind has been taken by other unions.
Mr. Sparkman. I think in some instances where people have gone to
Fort McClellan to do work on that project, in the course of construc-
tion there ; they were required to pay $40. At the same time they could
have joined a local union at home Jfor $20. I have heard of cases
where they have put it as high as $80.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3691
It seems to me that in a great many instances that has worked a
hardship on some of tliose workers. I think there is some deferment
of about half of the amount, but they have had to pay one-half down.
You can see how that works a great hardship on a great many of those
workers who were unemployed.
The thought has occurred to me that some of these people who are
being brought in to get employment probably would never become
good union members, because probably after the emergency they will
drop out of the union and go back to work on the farm or into the
country and work in the same jobs they were in before, and probably
would never become what you might call good, stable union members
and bear the earmarks of a price paid for the privilege of working on
these defense projects.
I am glad to hear you say that your convention did give considerable
thought to that, because it might easily get out of control.
Mr. Shishkin. I want to impress upon you the fact that where there
are those few corners to be cleaned out, labor is cleaning them out, and
I think its ability to clean its own house is sufficient, and that there is
no need of any intervention, as the development of the facts will prove.
As for the employment agency, whose sole source
Mr. Sparkman. I have no sympathy with them.
Mr. Shishkin. I appreciate that fully. I do think there is no way
of cleaning up that situation, but I think there is very pressing need
for action.
Mr. Sparkman. You spoke of the construction work near Memphis
in which the contractor advertised for labor.
Mr. Shishkin. For a plumber.
Mr. Sparkman. How would you get around that ? If he needs the
labor, how would you get around that ?
Mr. Shishkin. We have established a working relationship with the
United States Employment Service.
Mr. Sparkman. The Employment Service has in numerous instances
admitted that in only a few isolated places was it really doing a com-
plete job.
Mr. Shishkin. That is correct.
Mr. Sparkman. I think they have not so far coped with the situation.
I realize that what you say is desirable.
Mr. Shishkin. I want to point out that those 20 plumbers, or a large
number of them, are still unemployed. It could have made those avail-
able very easily.
Mr. Sparkman. The advertisement was by the contractor.
Mr. Shishkin. Yes; of course. But they could have made those
available at the requisition of the United States Employment Service
and even furnished transportation, if plumbers were not available.
Mr. Sparkman. Is it not true that on most of the defense projects
they are working in rather close harmony with the unions ?
Mr. Shishkin. I must say that the record today covering a large
volume of work has been truly notable in that respect.
oago INTERSTATE MIGRATION
GREAT PLAINS LACK INDUSTRIES
Mr. Curtis. Were yon present at our hearing this morning when the
young man from the Glenn Martin Co. testified '?
Mr. Shishkin. No ; I was not.
Mr. Curtis. We have a situation in many parts o± the country, par-
ticularly in the Great Plains States and agricultural areas, where there
is a decided lack of industrial operations and an oversupply of avadable
labor, with a great need for supplemental income m those areas, and
they are very much interested in securing national-defense industries
there.
I find, in the quest after such industries, there is another school of
thought that feels that these new plants should go to coast towns in the
industrial East, rather than reach out into the agricultural States.
I am referring to the Great Plains States— Kansas, the Dakotas, and
Nebraska— which have lost such large numbers of people. What do
you think about that controversy, as to wdiere those plants should go?
Mr. Shishkin. I should like to say this. Congressman, that there are
two phases of defense production that should be distinguished, one the
production of such essential and urgent and important things as air-
craft, in which the major requirement for equipment to develop new
plant capacity is in the machine-shop production of parts necessary
for the construction of planes, and in the machine-shop industry there
is a definite seasonality. There are many shops now, which are avail-
able, and in which there is slight modification of equipment needed to
enable them to produce airplanes. I think in that type of establish-
ment it would be a simple matter to go to the coast towns and use the
power facilities and utilities available there.
There is another type of defense production which is also essential
and necessary, and that is the program of developing equipment,,
clothing, and barracks for the Army training program. We have a
long-range plan of production that is a part of the defense program.
That is an equipment problem rather than a money problem.
I think there is a type of production which can be planned and
developed in such a way because it is known what the requirements
will be in 1942 at that particular point.
We cannot go into an agricultural area and do it in a week or two;
it takes time.
In those places where we can take time to plan, particularly about
post-emergencv problems, I think it will be a very vital and valuable
thing to have planning which would lead up to that. It is particularly
important to have that type of defense production there because that is
a type which has to do\vith industrial production directly, that can
be utilized after the emergency is over and become the nucleus of a
groAving industrial unit, after' the actual defense production is over
with.
industrial DECENTRALIZATION
Mr. Shishkin. Do you mean decentralization ?
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGKATION 3693
Mr. SiiisHKiN. Well, I think decentralization, of course, has shown
a marked tendency in the industry in the past few years, and, I think,
as a matter of defense planning-, I think the location of plants in
dilferent areas is desirable, and, I think, from a technological stand-
point, we have found in rubber, automobiles, and other instances that
smaller plants are productively more efficient. And there is also the
question of transportation.
I think decentralization, as a mere fetish or as a means of affecting
established standards of industry, might be an evil in a lot of situa-
tions, but I think within the framework of the present defense pro-
duction those things can be taken care of.
I think it would be a good thing to have the production of goods
and services where they can be placed to the best advantage.
Mr. CuRTTS. Does the organization you represent and speak for this
morning oppose defense industries in agricultural areas and favor
them in industrial areas because you may have a market in industrial
areas that is anxious to secure labor?
Mr. SiiisTiKiN. As far as the availability of labor and housing in
the defense industries is concerned, and the availability of workers,
in giving employment to our membership, of course, our organization
has an interest in locating industries in those places. On the question
as such, I do not believe that the American Federation of Labor has
taken any action on that, and I am unable to answer it directly.
I can say this: That if there is any need for the location of any
industry that is dictated by the elements of national defense and
sound planning, as a help to industrial growth, the American Federa-
tion of Labor will support that. But I think it is difficult to answer
that in a general way without giving it further and full consideration.
Mr. Curtis. Do you know whether labor's representative on the
Defense Commission adheres to such a policy?
Mr. Shishkin. You mean Mr. Hillman?
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr, SiiTSTiKiN. No ; I do not know what his views are on that.
Mr, OsMERS. I would like to go back a bit to what I consider to be
the most novel of the propositions you have made, namely, concern-
ing the reemplo^nnent finance program. I can see a great deal of
difficulty in putting such a program into operation because of the
difference between industrial investment, as you have referred to it,
and investment such as is represented by the Federal Housing
Administration.
Do you believe the Federal Government w^ould be wise to institute
a policy of encouraging industry in a general w-ay rather than to
guarantee industrial investments?
PARTIAL GUARANTY OF INVESTMENTS
Mr. Shishkin. I do not propose the guaranty of the entire invest-
ment, but only a partial guaranty.
Mr. OsMERS. Only a portion of it?
Mr. Shishkin. Yes. I wish to point out that the Reconstruction
Finance Corporation, in several periods, has maintained an extensive
3594 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
program of direct financing of industrial enterprises. We have had
an instance of a large portion of the textile industry being backed
by the Reconstruction Finance Corporation in its entire financial
structure, and it has worked. If that is so, and it has been tested,
I do not see why, in many specific situations where there is a Federal
activity involved, the Reconstruction Finance Corporation cannot
insure the loan.
Mr. OsMERS. Of course, the Reconstruction Finance Corporation
has acted as a banker, although performing no function of a private
banking institution, except that they have used Government money
to do it,
Mr. Shishkin. That is correct.
Mr. OsMERS. I can see some disadvantage in such a proposal,
unless they have worked it out very carefully; I think you might
find a further elimination of private banking from the American
business scene. Private banking today is at its lowest ebb in the
history of the country, and the rate of return on bank deposits is
the best evidence of that. The reason is the banks' original function
of acting as a bank has been somewhat thwarted, and it has been
used as a collecting agency to reinvest its deposits in Government
securities.
But, changing the subject for a moment to discuss the effect of
world peace on the interstate migration of destitute citizens of the
United States, what is your opinion on that?
Mr. Shishkin. As I pointed out earlier in my statement, I think
that is the most critical period we are facing. We will have an era
of readjustment or relocation of industry, and the expansion of
industry will be such that there will be a, flow of labor into new
ghost towns.
I think, in connection with every study of defense production,
consideration should be given as to what is going to happen to a
project, what is going to happen to the elements of production and
the equipment, and the workers trained to do that work, when it is
there.
Mr. OsMERS. Do you feel that the great difficulties that will arrive
with peace, the economic difficulties, will have to be settled by a change
in our basic form of government, even if it were temporary, where we
would have at least an economic dictatorship ?
Mr. Shishkin. I think. Congressman, I pointed that out in my
statement, that if we now start going to work on preventive measures,
and go at the thing in a democratic way, without compulsion, and
mobilize the democratic method to provide safeguards, I think we
will be able to face that situation without havmg to resort to an eco-
nomic dictatorship. But I think if we should wait and drift and
muddle through defense production, the crisis will be such that we may
not be able to cope with it through the normal channels, so I urge
the taking of preventive measures.
WORLD PEACE TO BRING UNEMPLOYMENT
Mr, OsMERS. Let us pressuppose that we do everything that you feel
ought to be done, that we plan carefully for the location of each in-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3695
dustry; have you taken into consideration the fact that with the
arrival of peace there will be approximately 25,000,000 workers
throughout the world outside of the United States who will also lose
their jobs as the result of peace, and that these workers, who will do
everything they can to get into the American market and attempt to
do business, will also be competing with us ? Do you feel that that
will have an unfavorable effect ?
Mr. Shishkin. I think on that particular phase of the situation
that is rather a pessimistic view. I think that the destruction of plant
property and life in Europe has been so enormous that the job of re-
building and reconstruction of what has been destroyed will be so great
a majority of the 25,000,000 workers will be put to work in getting
additional production.
Mr. OsMERs. I cannot agree with you, because I think, taking your
statement that a tremendous amount of plant property has been de-
stroyed, the destruction of life has not been as great as in the previous
war; but even taking the amount of plant destruction so far, you
would still not have destroyed more of the plant than that being occu-
pied by war activities. In other words, plants such as that will not
be used after the war. It may be, in Germany, with half of its
industrial plant being used for war production, that the other half
of the plant is not likely to be destroyed. But I doubt that.
Mr. Shishkin. I do not know how much has been left for the future,
especially some of the larger plants. Some of those now producing
shells, T. N. T., and so forth, will have to be changed back to normal
peacetime production. Industrial production has been geared up to
tlie production of war materials over a period of years, and that plant
will have to be rebuilt for peacetime purposes. I am somewhat adher-
ing to the optimistic viewpoint.
Mr. OsMERS. Do you feel that the United States Employment Serv-
ice is, in general, doing a good job?
Mr. Shishkin. I think it is doing an excellent job, and whatever
the shortcomings are, they are the shortcomings of a lack of sufficient
personnel and equipment. And when I say equipment I mean in a
general way, without casting any reflections on the present staff.
I do think they could probably do a better job if they relied more
on people with a background of actual work in the labor field. I
think we have a lot of people who have been working at their trade
in particular occupations, and who know them, practically, from
experience over a period of years. I think those who have repre-
sented labor on these problems are better equipped, in many in-
stances, to really do a thorough job of placement, bringing the job
to the worker and the worker to the job, than a person who has had
purely an academic training.
IMPR0\^ PLACEMENT PROGRAM
There is room for both, but I think they should rely more on the
practical people to enable them to work out a faster, better, and
smoother program of placement.
Mr. OsMERs. I Avant to agree with that statement. It has been
my opinion that not only representatives of labor but also repre-
3596 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
sentatives of employers should be in closer harmony with the em-
ployment service, or the employment service in closer harmony with
them.
You do feel, however, that the United States Employment Service
is the organization that should, in a sense, direct this migration as
much as possible, not to be compulsory in any sense, and if there
are jobs, they should be the ones to send people to these places.
Mr. Shishkin. Without question they are the ones to do that.
Mr. OsMERS. Do you favor a Nation-wide congress or conference
on the question of unemployment? The representative of the C. I. O.
said their organization was favorable to such a conference.
Mr. Shishkin. We have urged a conference on unemployment over
a period of time. President Green has made a report on that.
The unemployment problem now is changing so rapidly that I
think that the unemployment conference method at this time is very
unwieldly and very slow. We tried that in 1930, 1931, and 1932,
and that perhaps is the best method of dealing with the problem at
the moment. I think there should be a meeting of minds on the
part of labor and the Government, and I think it should be done
quickly, in view of the urgency of the situation.
AVOULD EXTEND WAGE-AND-HOUR LAW
Mr. OsMERS. What is your attitude on the application of the wage-
and-hour law to agricultural workers; by that I mean those engaged
in industrial or corporate farming^
Mr. Shishkin. I should like to have the act extended to cover
those.
Mr. OsMERS. With possibly some alteration in wages and hours to
cover agricultural occupations?
Mr. Shishkin. Without subscribing to Colonel Fleming's recom-
mendations, I should think that labor standards should be considered
first.
Mr. OsMERS. You feel that it should be handled as a separate
entity, so far as the agricultural worker is concerned, because of
the seasonal character of his work?
Mr. Shishkin. I think the Wage and Hour Division should un-
dertake a study of that subject and be called upon for specific recom-
mendations to Congress as to the nature of the problem, so proper
recommendations could be framed.
Mr. OsMEKS. The Secretary of Labor has suggested to the com-
mittee that the Federal Government establish a board, bureau, or
commission of a permanent nature to plot the course of migration,
and to suggest to Congress from time to time certain legislation that
might be helpful ; in other w' ords, to provide for a body such as this
committee on a permanent basis.
Mr. Shishkin. I subscribe to the suggestion by Congressman
Tolan that that is the proper way to do it, and I think that such
a body would have the approval of organized labor.
The Chairman. We thank you very much for your statement, Mr.
Shishkin. I want to say that your statement and your answers to
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3697
questions were fair and clear, and you have made a very valuable
contribution to the work of this committee.
Mr. Shishkin. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
(The following are excerpts from a prepared statement submitted
by Mr. Shishkin, which were not read with his testimony:)
* * * Today hmidreds of thousands of our families wander like tumble-
weeds across the expanse of our country, families who can and should be given
the opportunity to grow roots in communities which they could call their own,
to establish homes, and thus to be assured healthy and normal growth as
human beings, as families, as citizens, and as productive workers * * *.
To the plain public duty of remedying these conditions and of removiiig their
causes is now added another imperative and pressing requirement. Defense
organization and defense production will strain to the limit the resources of
the American people. The defense needs place upon our Congress and our
Oovernmeut an exacting duty to make, in a democratic way, an urgent and
adequte provision of remedies and facilities to end the idle ebb and flow of
unemployed job seekers, and to direct it into channels of normal productive
activity. * * *
Much of the interstate labor migration today may be termed "blind migra-
tion." Workers and their families travel hundreds and thousands of miles,
placing their faith of finding employment on vague rumors or deliberately
false reports greatly exaggerating the employment needs which often do not
exist at all. It is of primary importance, therefore, to assure visibility of
employment opportunities. In industry, trade, and agriculture advance-job
inventories should be made to provide advance information on prospective
employment opportunities. Such a service developed nationally by public-
employment offices in defense industries and in all seasonal and fluctuating
employments would greatly reduce the flow of "blind migration" which is the
most costly and wasteful to our community and to our economy. This program
should be undertaken as promptly as possible, and with full working coopera-
tion and consultation of organized labor and of industry. * * *
Most migrants are in flight from economic insecurity. Extension of coverage
of the social-security legislation to wage earners now excluded has been urged
upon Congress by the American Federation of Labor as a method of bringing
an important measure of economic stability and security from unemployment.
This should be done under the plan eniliodied in the Wagner-McCormack
amendments supported by the American Federation of Labor. Extension of
workmen's compensation coverage to temporary and casual workers and to
employments now excluded is also very necessary. * * *
Measures such as these and modification of existing settlement laws would
give us a framework for dealing with the problem in a planned, orderly, and
-effective fashion. We shall still have left before us, however, the broader
problem of long-term unemployment, the prf»blem which is temporarily miti-
gated by defense activity, but which will undoubtedly assume critical propor-
tions when the national emergency is over. As an approach to the i>ermanent
solution of unemployment and in addition to the basic remedies such as the
shortening of the hours of work and strengthening of the purchasing power
through increased wages, the American Federation of Labor offers another
proposal which is designed to stabilize the flow of productive investment.
To achieve this we recommend the adoption of a simple plan which may be
termed a ''reemployment finance program." We are now financing industrial
expansion and especially the expansion of defense industries through direct
loans of Federal money to industry. This lending program, although it may
he directly financed by borrowing, will ultimately place a great burden of taxa-
tion upon the wealth of our Nation. Government lending provides substitute
channels for the flow of investment funds which are not forthcoming through
the normal channels of private investment. In view of the large accumulation
of private investment funds and the availability of an enormous reserve of
accumulated savings of individuals and of industry, we propose a plan to make
possible direct investment of private funds into expansion of sound productive
enterprises.
By the simple method of Federal insurance of loans made by private banks
and other lending institutions under the method used by the Federal Housing
3698
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Administration, private investors can be induced to assume long-term risks
which they are now reluctant to underwrite. Partial insurance of these private
loans could be administered by the Reemployment Finance Corporation estab-
lished within the existing framework of the Reconstruction Finance Corpora-
tion and utilizing the available staft of the Federal Loan Agency.
The only condition of Federal insurance on industrial loans of this kind would
be the enforcement of minimum standards of fair competition and of such min-
imum labor standards as have already been established in the industry in
question. It is our belief that such a program which calls for no expenditure
of public funds and for a simple legislative authorization could do much toward
relieving the distressed areas in our economy by bringing new industry to
communities which need it and at the same time prevent unbalanced growth
brought on by unfair competition. , ^^ .
The sixtieth annual convention of the American Federation of Labor held ui
New Orleans last month has given extended consideration to the problem of
migratory labor and has authorized the executive council of the American
Federation of Labor to make a thorough study of the problems presented
by the migratory and transient workers. The convention also voted unan-
imously that such measures be prepared as will safeguard and protect the
social and civic rights and welfare of the migratory workers with the view that
a permanent and workable solution to this broad problem, reestablishing the
migratory workers in an economically sound community life, be found.
The problem of the migratory worker has become a challenge to the entire
community and is of vital concern to organized labor. The American Federa-
tion of Labor actively supported the authorization by Congress of House Reso-
lution No. 63 which made the work of the Tolan Committee possible. Your
committee has already established a notable record. Labor is confident that
a constructive program will result when it.s work is concluded.
(Thereupon, tlie committee took a recess until 2 p. m.)
AFTER RECESS
The Chairman. The committee will please come to order. The first
witness will be Dr. Lubin.
Congressman Osmers, of New Jersey, will niterrogate you, Dr.
Lubin.
TESTIMONY OF DR. ISADOR LUBIN, COMMISSIONER, BUREAU OF
LABOR STATISTICS, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR, WASHINGTON,
D. C.
Mr, Osmers. Dr. Lubin, I believe you are prepared to make a state-
ment to the committee upon which we may predicate our questions;
is that correct?
Mr. Lubin. I have no particular statement to make, Mr. Osmers.
When a representative of the committee conferred with me he asked
me to come and say Avhat I could about the effect of the defense pro-
gram upon employment. I have brought together various materials
which might throw light upon what may happen to employment as
the result of the defense program.
Mr. Osmers. I will say this, Dr. Lubin, that in our Washington
hearings, when we started off, it was pretty much an agricidtural
problem, but as the defense program has matured and as the work
of the committee has matured, we find that more and more emphasis
in our discussions is being placed upon the future migration that will
come as a result of peace.
If you could give us some testimony along those lines I am sure it
would be helpful to the committee, but don't feel we are narrowing
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
3699
you to that subject. Anything at all that you may have to say on
the subject of the international migration of destitnte citizens is of
interest to the committee.
Mr. LuBiN. I have nothing on the interstate migration of our citi-
zens. I understood I was to talk on the etl'ect of the defense program
upon employment and how far we could count on the defense program
in absorbing the unemployed.
EMPLOYED NUMBERED 37,000,000
Mr. OsMEBS. Will you speak on that subject?
Mr. LuBiN. Yes. During the month of October, the last month for
which official statistics are available, it is estimated that approximately
37,000,000 people were employed in the United States.
The last time that employment levels approached that figure was
in the fall of 1937, when about thirty-six and three-quarter million
people were employed.
Today we are about 800,000 below the peak level of employment in
the fall of 1929. In other words, despite the fact that the defense
program has been under way since May— it started, of course, from a
relatively low level, and despite the fact that since the beginning of
this year something approximating two and three-quarter million
people have found jobs, we are still at a point where about three-
quarters of a million fewer people are being employed, outside of
agricultural activities, than in the peak month of 1929. That was
September 1929, when the figure was, as I say, approximately thirty-
seven and three-quarter millions.
In the manufacturing industries we are still below^ the level of the
peak months of 1929, and w^e are even below the level of September
1937.
I brought with me a chart which gives a picture of the employ-
ment situation in the manufacturing industry.
The Chairman. The reporter will mark the chart as an exhibit
to Dr. Lubin's testimony.
(The chart referred to was marked "Lubin Exhibit B-1," and ap-
pears below.)
1
MANUFACTURING EMPLOYMENT
DURABLE AND NONDURABLE GOODS GROUP
1923-25=100
i 1
1
1 1
^
0!K.
i^
1
Nor
i
DURABLE
JnA^
Ha
^
j
.^
•vn
^A
' ^
^
\
J
^■j
>
A
r
1
—
DU
l\ /
—
-
1
1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940
260370— 41— pt.
3700 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. LuBiN. You will note from this chart (Manufacturing Em-
ployment) that the index of employment at the present time in
the durable-goods industries — which are the industries that are most
directly affected by the defense program — is approximately 110, as
compared with the base years 1923, 1924, and 1925.
You will note that this line is just about back to where it was 3
years ago, in 1937, when we reached the peak level since 1929.
You will note also that it is just about on a par with the peak
period of 1929. This black line on top, which is the nondurable-
goods industries, which are the industries that make the things we
consume each day — food, clothing, and the nondurable goods of vari-
ous types — is still several points below where it was 3 years ago and
slightly below where it was in 1929,
In other words, the real gains in employment in the last several
years have been in the durable-goods industries, and the real gains
that have occurred in the past 7 months have been in those same
durable-goods industries, as one would expect, due to the fact that
the Army and Navy are spending most of their money on heavy
goods — ships, airplanes, ordnance — of one sort or another.
These figures on employment do not tell the entire story, how-
ever, because all they depict is what is happening to the number of
people who are on pay rolls.
During the last 6 or 7 years a lot of people were employed but
had relatively little work. In other w^ords, they were on a pay roll
but they had employment for only 2, 3, or 4 days per week.
lU'YING POWER or LABORING POPULATION
The defense program has not only brought about an increase in
the number of people employed but has brought about a very marked
effect upon the pay rolls of industry. In other words, not only have
new people been taken on but the people who had been on previous
to the program have been securing more steady work and much over-
time work. The result of that situation is shown on this factory
pay-roll chart.
The Chairman. Will you mark that, Mr. Reporter?
(The chart referred to was marked "Lubin Exhibit B-2", and ap-
pears as chart 2.)
Mr. Lubin. You will notice that pay rolls in the durable-goods
industries now stand at 121.7, or approximately 122, the highest level
on record.
Mr. Parsons. Higher than during the World War?
Mr. Lubin. No; I am sorry. I should have said "since the early
1920\s." The actual pay-roll figures for the World War period were
not very much in excess of this point.
Mr. Parsons. But those were not normal times, of course.
Mr. Lubin. Well, of course, some people will question whether the
present times are normal. The fact remains that there Avas a great
increase, and you will notice in this chart that pay-roll figures jump
from 97 in May to almost 122 in October, an increase of over 25
percent in that short period of time.
You will notice on the other hand that in the non-durable-goods
industries the pay-roll figure is just about where it was a year ago
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
3701
2
MANUFACTURING PAY ROLLS
DURABLE a NONDURABLE GOODS GROUP
1923-25=100
120
100
80
60
40
20
1
120
100
80
60
40
20
A
(^
f^
V"
>/"
^
r 1
NONDURABLE
h
i
f
•^
l\
r
\
^^4
^/*
:^
I
'Z
'^
vI\a
/
f^
//
/
^
DU
^ABLE
Vi
V
/v
r
V
J
1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940
and below where it wus in 1937. and considerably below where it
was in 1929.
Mr. OsMERS. Dr. Lnbin, is tliat chart based on dollars of pay rolls?
Mr. LuBiN. Dollars paid out per week.
Mr. OsMERS. Dollars paid out per week by manufacturers?
Mr. LuBiN. Yes.
Mr. OsMEES, I didn't know whether it was hours of labor, or wages
per hour, or what the unit was.
Mr. LuBiN. The total dollars paid out in pay rolls.
Mr. Parsons. That is your index when figuring buying power?
Mr. LuBiN. Yes ; it is the buying power of the laboring population
■of the country.
May we have the next chart marked ?
The Chairman. The reporter will please mark it.
(The chart referred to was marked "Lubin Exhibit C," and appears
as chart 3.)
3
EMPLOYMENT AND PAY ROLLS
ALL MANUFACTURING INDUSTRIES
1923-25=100
120
100
! 80
60
40
120
100
80 \
60
40
J
^
A
iJ
^
rv»
d
pj
E
^PLC
YME
"V
n
^
J
J
1
P
V
N
'^
p
\
!^
/v
/y
i
^
H
•J
V
^PA
Y RO
.LS
\
^
V
i
1^
k
.
\i
'
V
/
1
20
1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942
3702 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
EMPLOYMENT CLOSE TO 1 9 2 9
Mr. LuBiN. If you take all of the manufacturing industries com-
bined, namely, durable and nondurable, which this chart shows^
being a combination of the two preceding charts, you will find that
employment as a whole in the manufacturing industries is just about
back where it was 3 years ago. It is slightly below where it was
in 1929. ■
Here is the figure, Mr. Parsons, for the war period. There is your
1910 figure. It was 1141/2 as compared to 110 now.
Mr. Parsons. Well, we had all the people pretty well employed
in those days
Mr. LuBiN. Yes. But, of course, in the past 20 years you have
increased the number of people in your population who are of work-
ing age by something like 10,000,000.
The Chairman. That is the point.
Mr. Parsons. But haven't we had a comparable and proportionate
increase in the 20 years before that, whereas the population in the
last decade has not increased anything like the same rate or rapidity
that it did in the years previous ?
Mr. LuBiN. The significant fact is that during the so-called period
of prosperity in the late 1920's, your employment and pay-roll levels
dichi't rise very much. There were temporary ups and downs but
the figures stuck pretty closely to that line, which represents 1923,
1924, and 1925, and even in 1929 you did not get back to the levels
of 1919 either in employment or in pay rolls.
Mr. Parsons. But you had steady employment in both the durable
and nondurable goods. They went fairly well along together?
employment problem built up
Mr. LuBiN. Yes ; of course. But the significant thing is that dur-
ing that period you were gradually building up an army of unem-
ployed. I should not use the word "army." It is the wrong word.
You were gradually building up an employment problem that we
were not conscious of at the time.
Mr. Parsons. That is just what I want you to comment on. A
great many of those people were coming from the rural areas and
the farms because farming was less and less profitable.
Mr. LuBiN. Exactly so.
Mr. Parsons. Throughout the decade of the 1920's and in com-
parison with the comparative buying power of industry.
Mr. LuBiN. In other words, you were increasing the working popu-
lation something in excess of 500,000 a year and yet between 1920 and
1929 the actual increase in the number of people employed was less
than 15 percent. In other words, each year you were adding to your
laboring population but you were not absorbing them as fast as you
were adding to your labor supply.
Mr. Parsons. Has labor-displacing machinery, inventions, and
technological machines aided and assisted in this employment?
Mr. LuBiN. There is no doubt it has aided and assisted very
materially.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3703
Mr. Parsons. And the new frontiers of manufacturing of new ma-
terials, like automobiles and like the airplane industry and so on, have
not absorbed the labor that inventions and technological trends have
-displaced.
Mr. LuBiN. That is true. Of course, on the other hand, there is
this other thing that should be borne in mind, that during this period
the habits of the country have changed. In other words, you made it
more difficult, and in fact you are prohibiting the employment of
l^eople below 16 years of age. Formerly, many worked below the
age of 14. Through our social-security laws we have made it possible
for people who otherwise would have had to work to retire at the
age of 65. Our whole attitude toward various groups of our popula-
tion has changed.
Mr. Parsons. Yet with all that change we still have a very large
number of unemployed.
Mr. LuBiN. Very definitely.
Mr. Parsons. Do you think we will ever reach the point where we
■can employ all the employables in private industry ?
Mr. LuBiN. If I didn't I would give up right now. I think that
we can. I don't know how we are going to do it, but I would say that
to admit that we cannot is admitting bankruptcy for our system.
Mr. Parsons. You are quite an optimist and I am very glad to have
Sit least one individual that believes it can be done.
Mr. LuBiN. Well, I am convinced it can be done.
Mr. Parsons. The principal point right now is to find the means
tind the methods with which to do it.
Mr. LuBiN. Exactly.
Mr. Parsons. That isn't the problem of this committee, however.
It is only incidental ; but we are vitally interested in the problem.
SENATE STUDIED UNEMPLOYMENT
Mr. LuBiN. Back 12 years ago, in 1928, the Senate passed a resolu-
tion ordering an investigation of the problem of unemployment. The
job was turned over to the Senate Committee on Education and Labor,
and I was appointed economic counsel to that committee.
The report submitted by that committee pointed to the very same
problem that we are discussing today, namely, how to absorb the people
who were then unemployed but whom most of us did not consider to
be a problem. We were not conscious of the fact in that so-called
heyday of prosperity that people were unemployed and that the number
of unemployed was increasing.
Today the problem is still with iis. It is still with us but in a much
more acute form, first, because of the fact that we had the period from
1929 to 1933 when we had a progressive decline in employment. Since
1933 we have twice gotten back to the point from which we started
in the 1920's.
Mr. Parsons. You mean so far as pay rolls are concerned ?
Mr. LuBiN. Pretty close. The problem from now on is not to main-
tain that level but to go beyond it to new levels, and having gone
beyond it to maintain it. The solution, as I said before, I do not know,
3704 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
but I think there is a whole series of factors involved. I think the-
problem of price structure is a very significant factor in it.
Mr. Parsons. Will you comment upon the price structure with
reference to your idea relating to this problem?
Mr. LuBiN. Take the case of technological displacement. A new
macliine comes in. We just take it for granted if the machine can do'
the work of former workers that those workers can be dismissed
automatically.
Well, now, if the savings that came in production costs as a result of
putting in a new macliine were distributed more equitably, I don't
believe we would have the severe problem that we have been having.
In other words, if the savings were given to us automatically in lower
prices so you and I would have to pay less for those goods, we would
have more money to spend for other goods. If that were the situation,
your total problem of unemployment would be a great deal less serious
than it is at the present time. On the other hand, if part of the
savings were given to the displaced worker, he at least would be much
better off.
Mr. Parsons. As a direct gift?
Mr. LuBiN. Through some form of insurance. Now, let us have a
concrete illustration. Here is a man working in a factory in the
State of New York. He has a certain skill. He loses three fingers
as a result of an accident. In losing those three fingers he no longer
is able to do his old job.
In New York State that man can get two-thirds of his salary, under
the workmen's compensation law of that State, for a long period of
time. I think it is 6 years. He has lost his skill as a result of an
accident.
Now, somebody puts in a machine and does the same thing. It
doesn't take his fingers away from him but it takes his skill away
from him. He is no longer necessary to his industry. We forget him.
He is thrown into the ash can and he has to find his own way around.
Mr. Parsons. Probably would start on the road as one of our
migrants.
Mr. LuBiN. That is one of the possibilities. In other words, we
haven't kept our books straight. That job of his from which he is
displaced creates a social liability. Somebody is going to have to take
care of that dispossessed person some way or another. You and I
don't pay for it directly. The employer doesn't pay for it. Eventu-
ally, however, you and I may pay for it through our payment of taxes..
But if the worker is going to lose his job so that you and I can get
things cheaper, I think it is unfair that he bear the burden all himself.
Mr. OsMERS. Don't you think. Dr. Lubin, that as a general rule the
benefits of labor-saving machinery have been passed along to the
consumer ?
Mr. Lubin. I would say that if it is it takes so long that the problem
of technological displacement becomes very much more serious than it
need be.
Mr. OsMERS. I will admit, of course, that the manufacturer that
goes to great expense to install labor-saving machinery cannot innne-
diately reduce prices to what they will be when that machinery has
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3705
been amortized. I appreciate that, but won't competition force the
saving to be passed on to the consnmer?
Mr. LuBiN. I would not say generally, but I will say that com-
petition sometimes does that but nowhere as frequently- or as regularly
as we would like to think it does.
INCREASED WORKING POPULATION
Mr. Curtis. May I ask a question '^
The Chairman. Certainly.
Mr. LuBiN. That is a personal opinion, of course.
Mr. Curtis. As I understood you to say, we have approxnnately
the same number of employed people now as we had in 1929.
Mr. LuBiN. Actually employed ; yes.
Mr. Curtis. But it' is not the same relative number as compared
to the population in 1929?
Mr. LuBiN. That is right.
Mr. Curtis. Our population has increased considerably, has it not?
Mr. LuBix. The population of working age has increased approxi-
mately 5,000,000.
Mr.' Curtis. And how about the total population of the country ?
Mr. LuBiN. It has increased 9,000,000, approximately, I think.
Mr. Curtis. Now, do you know of anyone that has tried to find
the mathematical answer to the question of how many jobs have
been displaced by the coming of machines in the last 20 years, the
development of machines and so forth, as compared with the new
jobs that machines have developed?
Mr. LuBiN. No; there is no mathematical answer. The reason
is that it is next to impossible to determine whether the machine
or some other factor has displaced a particular person. For exam-
ple, here you have a factory where because of the installation of one
machine which may save a lot of labor on the part of the people
who were doing a j^articular job — at the same time you may have
a reorganization of the plant in terms of feeding materials to the
machine, so that you eliminate a lot of unnecessary waste motion —
as a result of that machine being there, more people have been displaced
than appears on the surface.
Mr. Curtis. But you take the development of radio with its manu-
facture, its wholesale and retailing and broadcasting business; the
licensing and servicing and the talent — the materials that go into
radio and all its ramifications that you can imagine, and added to
that air-conditioning and refrigeration and aviation and countless
other things. I am not saying tluit machines have not done away
with jobs but I do think we are just sticking our heads in the sand
in trying to solve our problem by saying that machinery is responsible
for unemployment when no one knows.
machines displace avorkers
Mr. LuBiN. I think you can get evidence of the displacement of
jobs by machines.
^yQ^ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Curtis. But can you get the new ^obs created, and balance
them up and see what the answer is?
Mr. LuBiN. Well, assuming that we could, the tact still remains
that 13111 Jones, who used to work in a plant that made pianos, who
lost his job because people don't want as many pianos today because
they can have radios and victrolas, is out of work— he has been dis-
placed. He is a problem. Granted that as a result of the develop-
ment of radio Bill Smith got a job which he otherwise would not
have had. That does not overlook the fact that we have a human
casualty; that there are people out of work today because of the
iact that the machine has taken their job.
Now, in terms of the total number of people who are attected by
machine displacement nobody knows the answer. There is no way
of telling. . J. -1 1
Mr. Curtis. But the goods consumed by an American family has
greatly increased because they can buy the products of the machine,
isn't that true ?
Mr. LuBiN. Very definitely.
Mr. Curtis. If we turned the clock back enough years so that
.everything was made by hand we wouldn't be having countless things
in our homes and elsewhere that folks are buying today, would
we?
Mr. LuBiN. Well, I would say that it would be much cheaper and
better for society to let the machines go on at the rate they have been
going and provide for the people who are displaced in some other
way than it would be to stop the advance of the machine. One
reason why we have such a high standard of living in this country
for those who are employed is the machine. But I don't feel that
you and I as consumers, who get the advantages of these machines,
should be excused from bearing our share of the burden of taking
•care of the people who have been displaced.
In figuring the cost of production you have got not only taxes
and insurance and wages and profits and interest, but there is that
other factor — the displaced worker. I think he should be considered
part of our cost of production as well as anything else.
We made a start in that direction under the Unemployment Com-
pensation Act. One of the costs of maintaining a factory is the
■cost of taking care of your men when you shut your factory down.
That is added to the cost of production and you and I rightfully
should pay it.
PAY for YEAR-AROUND EMPLOYMENT
If the women of this country want to buy their bonnets 3 weeks
iDefore Easter they should contribute toward the maintenance of the
workers who make those bonnets and need employment the year
around. They should help to take care of those people so when
they Avant bonnets again next fall those people will be available.
:Somebody should bear that cost and I think the consumer should
pay it.
Mr. OsMERS. I would like to ask you a question about the charts
Tthat you have showed us, which all show an increase in employment
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3707
and pay rolls in the very recent past and apparently a continuing
upward curve. Is there any way of telling the committee how much
of that up-swing is due to defense industries ?
Mr. LuBiN. \es, sir; I have the picture of what has happened
here. This is the explosives industry. You will note that the black
line, which is employment, is now 39 percent above where it was
a year ago. Pay rolls are almost 44 percent above where they were
a year ago.
The Chairman. Will you mark that, Mr. Reporter ?
(The chart referred to was marked "Lubin Exhibit D," and ap-
pears below. )
EMPLOYMENT AND PAY ROLLS
EXPLOSIVES
1923-25 = 100
^
\i>
^
f
^
^
f^
A^
L
^
EM
'LOY
;^
iH
j i
I
j
J
_J
ftY F
J
OLLS
i
1
1923 1924 1925 r926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 f935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942
Mr. Lubin. The chart for the chemical industry
The Chairman. Will you mark that, Mr. Reporter ?
(The chart referred to was marked "Lubin Exhibit E," and ap-
pears below. )
5
EMPLOYMENT AND PAY ROLLS
CHEMICALS
1923-25 = 100
200
150
100
50
250
150
100
/-^
r
^
2s
S;^
EK
<PLOYN
ENT^
^^^
^
■^
^
J
^^^=^-^
"^^
t^
--PAY F
iOLLS
U«IIE
1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942
«^
^yQg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. LuBiN. Ill the chemical industry the increase has not been
quite as great but you can see the trend. There was a rather sharp
rise at the end of 1939 and the index is still going up. Employment
today is about 9 percent above where it was a year ago and pay rolls
are 12 percent higher.
The aircraft industry
The Chairman. Will you mark that, Mr. Eei)orter?
(The chart referred to was marked "Lubin Exhibit F," and appears
below.)
6
EMPLOYMENT AND PAY ROLLS
AIRCRAFT
1923-25 = 100
rS'n'n
/
aooo
/
3000
/
EMPLO
YMENT.
/
1000
^_=—
*S^*«
^aJJ"^^^^ ^PAY ROLLS
1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942
.«,
Mr. Lubin. Let us go back to January 1939. The index was 900.
At the present time it is 4,200. In other words, employment in indus-
try has increased about five times and pay rolls approximately by the
same amount.
The Chairman. Will you mark that. Mr. Reporter?
(The chart referred to was marked "Lubin Exhibit G," and appears
below.)
EMPLOYMENT AND PAY ROLLS
SHIPBUILDING
1923-25 = 100
1 , j
1/rr,
^ A. i^' '"" n^vA
'^'V/*'^^ ^WjT ni EMPLOYMENT-^yd' ^j
1 1 . L__c
1924 1925 1926 1927 1929 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940
INTERSTATE :\IIORATION
3709
Mr. LuBiN. In the sliipbiiildiiio- industry you have a simihir picture.
Early in 1939 the index was 100. 'The index today is 195. The pay-roll
index was 100, and the pay-roll index today is 241. You have doubled
the pay roll two and a half times.
In the machine-tool industry yon have a similar picture. We
are far above anything we ever had. Pay rolls today are three and
a half times what they were in the middle of 1938. Employment is
twice what it was 2 years ago.
Those are the outstanding industries that have been affected by
defense orders.
(The chart referred to was marked "Lubin Exhibit H," and appears
below.)
8
EMPLOYMENT AND PAY ROLLS
MACHINE TOOLS
1923-25 = 100
\
..L|J_4_
P
1
1
1
/
A*
i 1 1 1
1
AY F
0
OLL
\,
/
Y
vVr^r
■
\ J
' /=^^S3^ I^; employmenV ' ^
A Y"
^'V_i LlJ'K ^
\ ' ^^^ 1
i
1926 1927 1928 1929
1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938
1940 1941 1942
Mr. OsMERS. That isn't quite what I had in mind, Doctor, but I am
glad you gave us those figures because they are very essential. But I
would like to know what projiortion of these general increases is
accounted for by the vei-y industries that yon have separately given us
here.
Mr. Lubin. I think I have the actual figures with me.
NORMAL INDUSTRIES IMPROVING
Mr. OsMERS. In other words what I am trying to determine is
Avhether normal industries are getting any better or whether we are
just adding to certain defense categories.
Mr. Lubin. Oh, they are all getting better.
Mr. OsMERS. Aside from those purely associated with defense?
Mr. Lubin. Yes, sir; of course, they will follow as money goes out
in pay rolls ; even in nondurable goods we will see a sharp increase in
buying. May I give you a few examples of what the increases were?
Mr. OsMERS. I wish you would.
Mr. Lubin. Let us take today over a year ago. Blast furnace and
steel mills. The index has increased from 100 to 125.
3710 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
I will just take some outstanding cases. Structural and ornamental;
metal work which was in the doldrums and has been for 10 years^
jumped from 76 to 85. Wire-work employment increased from 165 to
187. Agricultural-implements employment, from 117 to 134. Elec-
trical machinery, from 97 to 115. Foundry and machine shops, 91 to
106. I have given you machine tools. Typewriters from 124 to 127.
That is not as great but it is still an increase. Automobiles, from 107
to 123. Locomotives, from 25 to 39. That still has a tremendous dis-
tance to go to get back where it was 11 years ago but it has made a big
rise. Aluminum employment, from 168 to 295. Furniture, from 94 ta
97. Lumber and millwork, from 63 to 69. Cotton goods relatively
little — just about where it was a year ago. Boots and shoes are down
slightly, despite Army orders.
Mr. OsMERS. Do you anticipate, Dr. Lubin, that employment in
the consumer goods industry will also increase as a result of this?
Mr. Lubin. Our estimates are to the effect that by Christmas of
next year the defense program will have created about 4,000,000
jobs. In other words there will be 4,000,00 people working on de-
fense orders a year from now more than at the beginning of the
defense program.
Last summer we estimated that as a result of that there will be
an increase of 2,000,000 in employment in those activities which
make the things that these defense workers will require.
Mr. OsMERS. Will consume as individuals? You do not mean as
factory workers?
Mr. Lubin. As individuals. In other words we estimate about
4,000,000 direct defense and 2,000,000 indirect, which gives a total
of 6,000,000 more people than were employed at the beginning of
the summer.
Mr. OsMERS. With such an increase in prospect is it not likely
there will be an increase of migration from rural areas to urban
areas?
ARMY AND NAVY WORKERS SLEEP ON GROUND
Mr. Lubin. Of course that has already started.
The Army and Navy have made provision for putting up new
plants and in many instances those plants have been located in
rural areas. In one case that I have in mind, people by the hun-
dreds and thousands came into a rural area that had absolutely
no facilities for taking care of them.
People were sleeping in tents and on the bare ground without
cover over them and with little sanitary arrangement. They came
not only from the immediate rural areas but many from the larger
cities. Incidentally, I feel that some definite action should be taken
to prevent contractors who' get contracts for new plants for the
Army and Navy from advertising for help. I think they should
be permitted to bring with them the skeleton crews that they need,
people who know their way of doing business, but in terms of rank-
and-file workers this idea of advertising in the newspapers that they
want people, and then have them flock into an area which creates
artificial migration, that is a thing that should be stopped; and I
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3711
ihink one way of stopping it is to see to it that the contractors as
part of their contract with the Government undertake to use the
employment service to the largest and greatest extent wherever
feasible.
Mr. OsMERS. Now, has your department compiled any figures as
to the amount of new capital investment that will be made under
the defense program ?
Mr. LuBiN. Well, our figures don't deal with private capital in-
vested. They only deal with the actual expenditures to be made by
the Government itself.
Mr. OsMERS. They do not deal with the private investment market
at all ? '
Mr. LuBiN. No.
Mr. OsMERS. Now, when this is all over and when I say this,
Doctor, I mean when peace comes again to the world, what will
happen to these national defense workers? I am thinking now par-
ticularly of those that you just referred to that are migrating from
rural areas for the sole purpose of working in a defense plant.
Mr. LuBiN. Well, it depends — I think that is a pretty large bill
jou have given me, sir. I think it will depend first on the type of
peace we have and how it comes about.
I happen to be one of those who are pessimistic enough to believe
that this defense program is a long-time program. I don't see the
end of it in a year or 2 years, although with the exception of certain
battleships most of the contracts call for completion within the next
2 years.
I think the program is going to go beyond that. I think there will
be new appropriations and that the program will go further into the
iuture than we anticipate.
DEFENSE PLANTS KEPT AS "STAND-BYs"
Mr. OsMERS. I am tempted to agree with you, Doctor, but I think
JOU will agree with me that some day it must end.
Mr. LuBiN. Yes ; I think that various things may happen. I think
that in many instances many of the plants that are being erected
will — I don't want to use the word "abandon" — but many of them
will be kept as stand-by plants. In other words they will* no longer
he useful except for a future emergency.
At the end of the last war we dismantled a lot of plants, and we
have to rebuild them now. It may have been the cheapest way to
do it. I don't know.
On the other hand there will be other plants that can be made
available for other types of activity. The extent to which the need
•or the capacity of these plants as well as other plants in the country
will be required, I think will depend entirely on what happens in the
next year or 2 in terms of the supply of goods that are required for
•civilian needs.
To be concrete there is a group in this country that feel that by
next year there will be a shortage of steel. In other words there will
not be enough steel available to meet the needs of the defense indus-
tries and the civilian demands as well.
3712
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. OsMERS. To ttike a concrete example you would suggest auto-
moblies versus tanks ?
Mr. LuBiN. Exactly.
Mr. OsMERS. Or refrigerators?
Mr. LuBiN. Exactly.
Mr. OsMERS. There will not be enough tanks for the Government
and at the same time enough automobiles for the people?
Mr. LuBiN. Yes. Now, I am of the firm conviction that as far as
the post-defense period is concerned if we make provisions for that
steel now so that we can maintain employment in the automobile
industry and refrigerator industry and all the steel-consuming in-
dustries, as well as in the defense 'industries, our capacity to employ
workers will be greater than if we throw out of employment people
now engaged in meeting civilian needs.
Mr. OsMERS. In other words, you would say if it were possible to
keep as many of the automobile workers that are now engaged in
making automobiles still in the automobile industry, the better off
we will be and the less dislocation we will have at the end of this
emergency period.
Mr. LuBiN. Exactly that. I might put it the other way. They
need not be the same people if we need them in making defense
things, but others who replace them.
Mr. OsMERS. Try to keep the same number of individuals involved
making automobiles ?
Mr. LuBiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. OsMERS. In other words, to try to get away from the cannon
versus butter theory that we have seen in operation elsewhere.
PLAN FOR FUTURE OF DEFENSE W ORKERS
Mr. LuBiN. Exactly that. Now, frankly, our ability to make pro-
vision for the people now in defense industries, assuming that we got
a sudden dropping-off employment in defense industries, depends
upon what sort of provision we make now for the future. For exam-
]j]e, anybody who has a defense order or who wants to expand his
])lant can go to Uncle Sam, and Uncle Sam will give him certain priv-
ileges as far as depreciati'm is concerned — permit him to write his
plant off in 5 years. But \.ve have done nothing about the deprecia-
tion of the man who leaves his job today to go into defense industry.
People are leaving their jobs for defense industries. Not only that,
but in some instances Uncle Sam is putting up the money to build these
plants or in other instances where private capital builds them. Uncle
Sam is arranging to pay for them over a period of time. But we have
done nothing about the worker who is going into the defense industries
and giving up other types of work.
Mr. OsMERS. What would you say should be done ?
Mr. LuBiN. I think that we should have an amortization plan for
labor. In other words, there should be, let us say, some addition to
the present unemployment compensation scheme in the form of dis-
missal wage. I think Government contracts should provide that any
new workers taken on for defense work should have set aside, in a si>e-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3713
cial account for those workers, a dismissal wage which will be avail-
able to them when their services are no longer needed for defense.
Now, if that were on a joint basis, let us say 5 percent put up by the
woi'ker and 5 percent by the employer, and a man had a job, say foi' 2
years — that is 100 weeks. A man earning $20 a week would have accu-
mulated over $200, or 10 weeks' pay, which would be available to him
when he is no longer needed by the defense industries.
I think that purchasing power available to him at that time would
liave a tremendous eti'ect upon cushioning the etl'ect of the let-down
in employment.
Mr. OsMERS. Has John Maynard Keynes suggested such a thing?
Mr. LuBiN. Keynes has gone further than that. He has gone in
for compulsory savings of all kinds. In other words, he feels that we
ought to cut down every type of consumption we can so that there
will be a pent-up demand available. In other words, forced savings.
Mr. OsMERS. You have to save it until you can buy something with
it ^ He also would like to see some sort of defense-insurance proposi-
tion adopted such as you have suggested^
Mr. LuBiN. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. AVe had a witness in here the other day, Msgr. John A.
liyan, who thought there was merit in the plan but it should not be
compulsory.
Mr. LuBiN. Of course, my feeling is that there is no merit in the
jjlan until we have absorbed the unemployed who are available for
Avork. I mean, as long as you have a large number of people unem-
ployed who have not been absorbed yet, why do anytliing to interfer<^
with their being absorbed. I think our job is to get as many people
at work as we possibly can and only after we have no unemployed to
care for or no problem of unemployment of any large size is the time
to start curtailing consumj)tion.
Mr. OsMERS. Germany, before the war, and England, since the war,
liave taken full power over their labor supply. In the event of full
employment in the United States, do you feel that the United States
Government should also institute a system tf^ priorities over the labor
supply of the United States?
Mr. LuBix. Not until we have cut down tW number of unemployed.
Mr. OsMERS. No; in the event of full em] loyment.
Mr. LuBix. Well, of course, I don't like to see the Government
imposing priorities until it is absolutely essential to the welfare of
the Nation, and I think rather than impose priorities I would say
it should be the function of the Government, in cooperation with the
trade unions of the country and employers of the country, to work
out a voluntary scheme wdiereby people could be moved from one
type of employment to another.
Mr. OsMERS. Well, in the event of full employment I can see a
situation whereby the word "established" would hardly be the w^ord
to use. There would l)e hot and bitter competition for labor among
various industries and it might take rather a strong hand to control
such a situation.
Mr. LuBiN. What I would do then would be to use a system of
taxation rather than enforced priorities; or the Keynes scheme
;3714 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
whereby through popular pressure people put more of their money
into savings which could not be used every time we wanted to buy
ourselves a new automobile.
We tried that during the last war and we just missed by one step.
The idea was that everybody should buy bonds, Liberty Bonds and
other types of bonds, and if I had an extra $100 and bought a bond,
Uncle Sam would have the $100 to spend and I wouldn't, and there-
fore I would be out of competition with Uncle Sam in employing
-$100 worth of labor.
But what happened was that I bought the bond and then went
to the bank and borrowed $100 on it and Uncle Sam had $100, and
I had a Imndred.
I think Ave should have bonds that could not be discounted during
the period of emergency.
SOME SHORTAGE OF SKILLED LABOR
Mr. OsMERS. Is there a shortage of skilled labor in the United
States at the present time?
Mr. LuBiN. Of certain types and in certain areas; yes.
Mr. OsMERS. Is it serious or is it large or is it important?
Mr. LuBiN. No; it is localized. In other words there are certain
areas where you cannot get the type of labor you want when you want
it. Now, I would like tol point this fact out, however, that in some
instances where there have been shortages those shortages have auto-
matically corrected themselves by the employer making it known that
he has changed his age standards.
I know of one plant, for example, that was short of skilled workers.
They had an age limit of 40. They increased that to 55 and the
shortageldisappeared.
Mr. OsMERs. That would, of course, be an artificial labor shortage.
Mr. LuBiN. And I think a large number of these artificial labor
shortages in too many instances is due to the fact that industry
is still thinking in the terms of 1933 to 1939. In other words, in
those days the employment manager could go to the window and
whistle, and an unlimited supply of skilled labor would show up.
During that period they could make their standards more rigid.
They could pick more carefully. There were age limits and a lot
of other limiting factors— color, race, all of which in times like these
limit the supply of labor available.
I feel that some of the shortages that we hear about today can be
eliminated. They are artificial and are created in some measure by
artificial restrictions.
In some industries of course that is not so. There are particular
crafts such as lens grinders. We just don't have anywhere near
enough of them. The reason is we have never needed very many
lens grinders. Then all of a sudden we develop an industry where
lens grinders are needed.
Mr. OsMERS. In the event that we should have full employment,
and in the event that we should have competitive bidding for labor,
would you say that the Federal Government should exercise control
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3715
over the labor situation, possibly by setting standard wages and
hours in certain essential defense industries?
Mr. LuBiN. I don't think the Government should do that. I
think industry and organized workers should agree among them-
selves what the standards should be.
Mr. OsMERS. And in the event they did not what would you sug-
gest? You are an optimist ^yith respect to some of those things. I
am thinking now of the strikes that have occurred in defense in-
dustries at a time when there is every incentive for not having a
strike.
FEW DEFENSE STRIKES
Mr. LuBiN. If I might make a statement on that particular
point
Mr. OsMERS. Go right ahead, Doctor.
Mr. LuBiN. There have been fewer strikes and there have been
fewer days lost due to strikes during the 5 months from May to
October during which the defense program was under way, than
there were for the same 5 months in 1916 when we were geared
for armament production for the Allies, and during the same 5
months of 1917 when we were in the war. There has been no
important strike in any defense industry in the United States of
any significance with the exception of two which occurred within
the last 3 weeks, one in a relatively small airplane factory in Cali-
fornia and one in the aluminum industry. In one case there was
a 4-day strike and in the other case a 7-day strike. As far as the
strike record of the country is concerned, I think both employers
and laborers are to be congratulated. I think they have done a
remarkable job and if it were not for that particular strike in an
airplane factory I doubt whether we would have heardfa- thing
about labor difficulties.
Mr. OsMERs. I do not personally believe that labor should be
deprived of its right to strike. I believe that every safeguard
against a strike should be placed, however, in a contract that is
humanly possible to put in — every opportunity for mediation and
every provision for it, but do you agree that their basic right to
strike should be preserved?
Mr. LuBiN. Absolutely, After all. in many instances that is the
only protection that labor has.
Mr. OsMERS. You do feel though that in our defense contracts
we should make every possible provision to avoid a strike?
Mr. LuBiN. Yes; I think so. I think that the employers and
workers in their joint agreements should make provision for volun-
tary arbitration of any question that arises during the life of
the contract. That is standard practice in every good trade-union
contract. It is as true of the A. F. of L. as of the C. I. O.
All modern, good labor contracts make provision for arbitrating
any dispute that arises out of the interpretation of the contract
during its life.
260370— 41— pt.
3716
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. OsMERS. When business conditions pick up and employinent
opportunities increase is it not true that labor turn-over and migra-
tion from one place to another increases?
Mr. LuBiN. Yes. I have some interesting figures that I brought
with me which might give you some idea as to what has happened
right here in the District of Columbia.
We have in Washington, as you know, a navy yard. We have been
trying to find out where the new employees in that navy yard have
been coming from. We took only skilled workers, namely, ma-
chinists, tool makers, and instrument makers, for the period of 3
months, June, July, and August, and here is the story :
Of the 95 skilled workers who were hired, taken at random, 1 came
from Alabama, 1 from California, 1 from Connecticut, 1 from
Florida, 3 from Illinois, 1 from Indiana, 1 from Iowa, 18 from
Maryland, and 1 each from Michigan, Minnesota, and Missouri.
Eight came from New York and 5 from North Carolina. Four from
Ohio, 15 from Pennsylvania, and 1 each from Rhode Island, Ten-
nessee, and Texas, and 2 from Virginia. There were 4 from West
Virginia, from Wisconsin 4, from the District of Columbia 4, and
16 unspecified.
Mr. OsMERS. How many States are represented there. Doctor?
Mr. LuBiN. Twenty-three States which cover 76 people and the
balance unspecified.
Mr. OsMERS. In other words about three from a State?
Mr. LuBiN. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. I would like to make the observation that employment
seems to cause as much migration as unemployment,
MIGRATED TO WATERTOWN, MASS.
Mr. LuBiN. I have the same data for 170 skilled workers at the
Watertown Arsenal in Massachusetts, outside of Boston.
Mr. OsMERS. How many workers involved?
Mr. LuBiN. One hundred and seventy. One from California, 10
from Connecticut, 1 from Maine, 2 from Michigan, 1 from Minnesota,
3 from New Hampshire, 2 from New York, 3 from Pennsylvania,
3 from Rhode Island, 3 from Vermont, and 141 from Massachusetts.
Mr. OsMERs. The gentleman from Nebraska and I, from New
Jersey, are waiting for our States to be mentioned.
Mr. LuBiN. They are going into your States.
Mr. OsMERS. Could you give us the ratio of the number of men
employed in durable- and non-durable-goods industries?
Mr. LuBiN. I think I can. It will run about 8 for the durable to
4 for the nondurable.
Mr. OsMERS. In the general relationship 8 to 4.
Mr. LuBiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. OsMERS. About one to one ?
Mr. LuBiN. Yes, sir.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3717
TRAINING OF APPRENTICES
Mr. OsMERS. I wonder if you would care to give your views Dr.
Lubin, on vocational training. The committee has in nearly all its
hearings been confronted with the lack of vocational training in-
formation for American youth. I wonder if you have any views on
the subject.
Mr. Lubin. Of course, the problem of vocational training is very
nuich like the problem of apprenticeship training. AVhen there are
no jobs for people it is hard to get people to take an apprenticeship
course. It is hard to train apprentices when you don't have any jour-
neymen working who can train them. And, of course, during the past
10 years neither industry has wanted to go to the expense of training
apprentices nor has labor seen any necessity for permitting new ap-
prentices to be tniined when labor itself had difficulty in finding jobs
for its already skilled workers.
Such vocational guidance as we had, had grown up along given
lines ; and the type of vocational guidance that was available was de-
termined by the type of equipment available, for the most part was
woodworking equipment, printing equipment, and things of that sort.
The number of vocational schools in America, which at the begin-
ning of the defense program Avere equipped to give good training in
metal work, was very, very small.
During the defense program an attempt has been made to increase
the facilities of these schools so that training can be given for indus-
tries where these workers will be required,
Mr. Parsons. Just in that connection, Dr. Lubin, we are training
a great many youth now through the N. Y. A. and private schools,
and so on, for one or two simple operations in certain lines — certain
occupations. Aren't we creating a new problem for us whenever this
defense program is over with when they have been taught only one
or two operations? They will not be efficient, skilled workers.
Mr. Lubin. Well, of course, your problem of training an efficient,
skilled worker through the apprenticeship route is a slow, long-time
program. In some instances it takes 2 or 3 years to make a full-fledged
journeyman.
Mr. Parsons. And we have neglected that kind of training.
Mr. Lubin. Very definitely, 'for 10 years. The Department of
Labor has done the best it could to expand apprenticeship work. It
has done a very good job.
Mr. Parson. The European nations have been far ahead of us be-
cause of more than a century of training skilled workers.
Mr. Lubin. Yes; and we have been particularly laggard in the last
10 years. In fact prior to the establishment of the apprenticeship
division in the Department of Labor there was no organized way of
even stimulating the apprenticeship training of the country.
Now, we are faced with this situation : If we are going to have to
add 6.000,000 people to the industries of this country to take care of
our needs for the next year, we cannot wait long enough to train all
the skilled people required. It does not mean, however, that hand in
hand Avith a vocational guidance system you should not push the ap-
3718 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
prentice system so that 2 years hence we may have a sufficient supply
of highly skilled people to carry on.
Mr. Parsons. Right in that connection, what is the difference be-
tween the new method of handling skilled labor by what you might
call the upgrading of labor and the old method ?
Mr. LuBiN. Well, one grows out of the other, in a sense. The
present method of upgrading starts out with an assumption that
you have an order to fill. That order requires you to have a certain
number of milling-machine operators, let us say, or automatic screw
machine operators. Now, in the past when you needed automatic-
machine operators you went to the employment service or adver-
tised in the papers or told somebody in the plant you had a job open
and he brought somebody in. In other words you brought in new
people. Now, you cannot do that any longer. The men that are
needed are not available in many areas. The idea of upgrading is
to have the employer pick somebody who is doing a job which isn't
highly skilled. The worker selected may be operating an ordinary
lathe, or he may be a riveter. But he is a person who has ability,
who seems to have mechanical sense. The idea is to give him addi-
tional training so that he can be moved from the semiskilled job to
the more skilled job.
It may not be a highly skilled job, but the idea is to move people
up and to save time, and then bring in new people at the bottom
rather than bring people in from the outside to fill the top jobs.
Mr. OsMERs. It is based upon promotion of their present em-
ployees ?
Mr. LuBiN. Entirely that.
Mr. OsMERS. That is all.
The Chairman. Dr. Lubin, do you think the principle of the ladies'
bonnets mentioned by you applies equally well to agriculture?
agriculture exempt from migrant care
Mr. Lubin. Exactly. I think one of our difficulties has been that
we have — I would not say one of our difficulties, but one of our
problems that has arisen from the fact that we have exempted agri-
culture from the responsibility of taking care of those people whom
they need only for certain months in the year and whom they expect
to have back again year after year.
Somebody has had to provide for those people during the time
they are not wanted. We haven't organized our industries so we
can dovetail their activities so that when they leave agriculture they
can go into something else. The result is that these agricultural
workers become a burden upon he community where they happen
to be at the moment. I feel that at least large-scale agriculture
should be subject to unemployment compensation and the Wage and
Hour Act and I would even go so far as to say they should be subject to
the Wagner Act.
The Chairman. I was very much interested, Doctor, in your
thought regarding displaced workers on account of mechanization.
In other words, in this country we have taken care of the creatures
of man like iron and coal and steel passing through the States and
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3719
between the States. We liave given them a status. We have given
them technical regulation through interstate commerce, but we
haven't done so very much for the interstate commerce of human
beings.
Mr. LuBiN, Nothing at all.
The Chairman. Have you any idea why that is always the last
to be considered?
Mr. LuBiN. I suppose that is one of the — I don't know just how
to describe it — it is a commentary on our civilization.
The Chairman. There is no business firm of any account at all
that does not charge off depreciation for their buildings and for
their machinery.
Mr. LuBiN. They would go bankrupt if they didn't.
The Chairman. But you have never heard of any of them charg-
ing off for human depreciation ?
Mr. LuBiN. Maybe that is the answer. If they didn't charge off
their buildings they would go bankrupt and lose their property.
They have never been made to charge off labor, so nobody has done
anything about it. In other words if they knew they would go
into bankruptcy if they failed to make provision for their human
resources they might be more interested in doing something about it.
Mr. Curtis. Do you care to comment on whether or not there
is going to be a tendency for decentralization of industry due to
the national-defense program, especially in those phases that are
apt to become permanent?
Mr. LuBiN. There is a move on foot now to decentralize the de-
fense industries wherever possible. For example, when the Army
or Navy wants to erect a new plant, whether they are going to do
it through contract or do it directly themselves, for the making of
powder, or the loading of munitions, or things of that sort, the site
is submitted to the Defense Commission for its approval.
The Defense Commission has, through its various members, checked
on these sites in terms of labor supply that is available, and the
Commissioner in charge of agriculture and the Commissioner in
charge of labor have been very, very careful to see to it that wherever
possible these plants be put in the areas where there is already a
surplus of labor so that these new plants will not be put up in areas
^\•here you would have to bring in large numbers of new people,
and after you got them there build homes for them, when there are
other places where the same technical resources are available, namely,
water power, transportation, as well as labor and housing. As a
matter of fact both the Conunissioner in charge of agriculture and
the Commissioner in charge of labor have not only been very anxious
to see to it that plants go to such places, but they have been seeking
places out where such plants could go in the event that the Army
comes to them for ideas for the erection of new plants.
"ghost towns" for defense industries
Mr. Curtis. Now, assuming that all of the factors of transporta-
tion, power, and water, and so on are available, do you favor the
3720 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
placing of defense industries in the industrial areas, or in what
might be termed "ghost towns," or do yon think they should be moved
or placed in those areas where there is a supply of labor due to
displacement, and where there is a very definite need for supple-
mental income?
Mr. LuBiN. In terms of defense, as such, the first advantage of the
"ghost town" is that the plant is there. You save time. Secondly,
the supply of skilled labor in many instances is there — you don't
have to train anybody, you don't have to bring anybody in. The
housing is also there, and if you are thinking in terms of getting
defense products made as fast as you possibly can get them, I would
say yes.
Mr. CuKTis. Isn't it true that most of the defense housing projects
have been necessary in those areas which ordinarily are considered in
the industrial area.
Mr. LuBiN. But not in ghost towns. Most of your housing proj-
ects have been in areas like shipyard areas where you had a sudden
increase in employment. In those places you had to increase your
labor supply very markedly and most of the housing activities are
in those areas.
We haven't availed ourselves of any ghost towns yet. If we have
an alternative between a ghost town with a skilled labor supply and
available factory equipment I would give preference to the ghost
town.
On the other hand, if the problem is one which requires building
a new plant anyway and does not require a very specialized type of
high skill — in other words, a type of skill that can be developed rather
quickly in the agricultural areas, then I would say that the agricul-
tural areas should be selected every time.
Mr. Curtis. Do you have any figures to show that the agricultural
areas do not have any skilled labor available among the people who
have gone some place to live when they lost their jobs at home?
Mr. LuBiN. No; I don't think there is a single agricultural area
in the country where there is no skilled labor. But when you have to
get 1,000 skilled people from a relatively small radius then your
problem might become an acute one.
Mr. Curtis. But there is a definite saving in building and land
and housing cost in the rural areas, is there not ?
Mr. LuBiN. Insofar as the rural area is within a reasonable com-
muting distance and can furnish the labor that you need.
I ran across a case the other day. One of my men reported to me
that he had been up North visiting a shipyard and they said they had
no problem securing labor. They said their people like to drive back
and forth to work. They have some peo]:)le driving as many as 35
and 40 miles a day each way. Well, I am not so sure that they are
going to like to drive over snow and ice 40 miles each way ancl add
anywhere from 1 to 3 hours to their working day, going to and from
their job. There is a limit to the commuting area. Insofar as
skilled labor is available in a given commuting area, if the type of
work to be done is of such a nature that you can meet your labor
needs from the existing population, and if the type of plant required
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3721
is of such a nature that you would have to build it anyway, no
matter where, then I should say we should give the rural areas first
choice. And, in fact, I would select rural areas every time.
Mr. Curtis. There are many rural areas where there is an ample
supply of labor as well as a great need for supplemental income clue
to periodical drought and other such conditions. Would you favor
locating defense program plants in such areas provided there was an
ample supply of labor as well as a great need for supplemental
income in that territory ?
Mr. LuBiN. I would say that in terms of so-called semiskilled labor,
namely, the machine operator, your potential labor supply in the
rural areas is as great as you will ever need.
I was impressed when I saw the so-called migratory workers in
California and Arizona last spring. The fact is that these boys had
come with their families from Nebraska, Iowa, Arkansas, Alabama,
and Oklahoma in a 1923, 1924, or 1925 model car. When I was
talking to some of the airplane people in Los Angeles, I said :
Why don't you give these boys jobs? You need labor.
There was a hesitancy. They said they were not good mechanics.
My contention is that any man who can go from Nebraska to Los
Angeles in a 1925 Ford without any money in his pocket must be a
very good meclianic.
Mr. Curtis. This morning we had before us two Kansas boys, one 20
and one 22. They were mechanics working in Baltimore and both
moved half way across the continent because there were no such oppor-
tunities anywhere near where they lived. Both preferred to be back
in the Great Plains where they might be of some assistance to their
parents and where they preferred to live.
Mr. LuBiN. That is one of the things we are doing in the Labor
Division of the Defense Commission, namely, to find ways of mobiliz-
ing the resources of rural areas.
Let me give you a concrete illustration. I shall not name the city
but there is a city in the Middle West which is not an industrial center
in the sense that it has any large industries. I think it has one plant
that employs as many as a thousand people, but within a radius of 60
miles of that community are all sorts of little machine shops.
One of the people from that city has made a survey of the facilities
of some 71 plants, large and small, within a radius of some 50 miles.
He knows what machinery is there. He knows what they have made
in the past.
WOULD SPREAD PLANT PRODUCTION
Now, one of the things that our Division is trying to do in the
Defense Commission is to see whether we can coordinate these small
plants. In other words, can we, among those 71 plants, find one prod-
uct which could be so subdivided that each of them could have a little
work to do and feed it into a central point where it could be assembled.
That is quite different from the so-called subcontracting system
where you give one large contract to a contractor and he goes around
looking for subcontractors.
3722 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Our idea is to get the subcontractors, figure out what they can feed
into the central plant, and then determine the product and see if we
cannot get an order on that basis.
The city I mentioned is in the heart of a rural area. We are trying
to do the "same thing in some of the northwestern areas. The equip-
ment is there, the population is there, the housing is there, the inhabi-
tants of the immediate community need supplemental income.
Now, how can we harness all of these things, particularly when we
need their services ?
MEN OF DRAFT AGE DENIED JOBS
Mr. OsMEES. Dr. Lubin, during the World War approximately
500,000 Negroes came from the South to the North to seek employment
in war industries.
Charges are being made today that Negroes are being discriminated
against in defense industries. Are those charges true ?
Mr. Lubin. I cannot answer that question. Certain complaints hare
been brought to our office in the Defense Commission. In one instance
it was said the charges were not true, but the situation was cleared up.
In other words, what happened was that the employer concerned said
the charge was not true and the next day proceeded to hire some
Negroes.
Mr. OsMERS. I know in my congressional work I have had several
instances of discrimination brought to my attention, and while we
are on the subject of discrimination against labor in defense indus-
tries, there have been instances that have come to my knowledge where
workers of certain nationalities and extractions have been discrim-
inated against.
I think they were cured by somewhat the same method that you
have mentioned. I know I have called it to the attention of the man-
agement and they went into very long denials but started to employ
some of these people very shortly thereafter.
Now, another situation that has arisen, and I am sure you must be
very conscious of it, a great many industries in the United States
will not employ single men between the ages of 21 and 35 if they
believe they may be drafted.
Now, is there some solution for that situation or are these young
men to be told that they should be among the unemployed until they
are called for the draft ?
Mr. Lubin. I have had that same charge made to me about some
Government offices. I have no evidence as to the validity of the
charge. I even have had people say to me that they understand that
some offices are not taking anybody who might be drafted.
Mr. OsMERS. I have not heard that charge in connection with any
Government office.
Mr. Lubin. It came to me through an individual, and as I say,
I haven't investigated it. I don't know whether it is true or not. It
may be that this person was just dissatisfied because he could not get
a job. But I have heard the charge made. We have not received
such charges at the Defense Commission.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3723
Mr. OsMERS. You have not ?
Mr. LuBiN. We have not. The first time I heard of it, as I say, was
concerning the Government itself.
My practice at the Bureau of Labor Statistics is to give preference
to such a person if for no other reason than that he deserves employ-
ment more than somebody else because of the sacrifices that he is going
to have to make by serving in the Army.
If you are going to refuse to give a job to a person because he is of
draft age and leave him unemployed and leave him dissatisfied, what
kind of a draftee is he going to be once he is in the Army ?
Mr. OsMERS. I can cite you, Dr. Lubin, and I know the files in my
office would carry a dozen instances of actual cases, places, names,
dates, and plants and, of course, I can see the employer's side of it,
too. If a man is to be drafted in 6 months or a year, it is understood
that probably the first 6 months of his employment the employee
would not be of great commercial value to his employer and just at
the time when he might become of some value to him he would leave
for a year.
Mr. Lubin. Of course I cannot see that. I am an employer of 300
people and of course it is not my money that I am spending. The
fact is that when a good man comes in today and learns the routine
of my Bureau and is taken away 6 months or a year hence, I am put
in an embarrassing position because I must replace him and train
a new person. But if I am unwilling to help maintain the morale
of the fellow who is going to be drafted, then I am not fit to be an
employer.
Mr. OsMERS. I think you will find there are many many instances
of that.
Now, have you found draft boards generally are taking exceptions
of young men who are employed in the essential war industries?
Mr. Lubin. Very few cases have been brought to our attention by
employers where men were not being exempted who were deemed
essential.
Mr. OsMERS. I liave had no definite case brought to my attention;
I was just asking the general question. Do you expect there will
be a great many employment opportunities for women in industry
as a result of the defense program?
]Mr. Lubin. Yes; I think that the actual employment of women
will increase. For instance you take the airplane industry. There
are virtually no women employed in the airplane industry and yet
there are a lot of processes in the industry that women could do
equally well. Once you get to the point where the unemployed semi-
skilled workers are absorbed in increasing numbers and it become dif-
ficult to meet labor requirements, I think that the number of women
employed will increase very markedly.
Mr. OsMERS. Would you care to make any guess into the future,
Dr. Lubin, as to the probable amount of money that the Federal
Government will have to spend annually to maintain full employ-
ment?
Mr. Lubin. I don't know that.
3724
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. OsMERS. Do you feel that there ^Yill always be the necessity
for the Federal Government to include large sums in its budget for
the purpose of employing idle Americans ?
Mr. LuBiN. No; but that depends somewhat on what you mean
by large sums.
Mr. OsMERs. I mean in the billions.
Mr. LuBiN. I don't think it need to run into billions. Each time
the head of a family gets a job the necessity of his wife seeking a
job or his daughter or his soon seeking a job decreases.
The records will show what effect employment has on unemploy-
ment. In other words every time you add a person to the pay roll
you subtract more than one person from the unemployed. I say
more than one person from the unemployed, because when a father
is unemployed he may have three children seeking employment.
Wlien he finds a job two of them may go back to high school.
Mr. OsMERS. Thereby with one job you have taken three people
from the unemployed rolls.
Mr. LuBiN. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. That is all I have.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Dr. Lubin. Your contri-
bution has been very valuable and we thank you very much.
Our next witness is Mr. Eliot.
Mr. Eliot, will you please give your full name and in what capac-
ity you appear here?
Mr. Eliot, Charles William Eliot, Director of the National Ee-
sources Planning Board.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES WILLIAM ELIOT, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL
RESOURCES PLANNING BOARD
The Chairman. We are very pleased to have you appear before
this committee, and the distinguished gentleman from Illinois, Mr.
Parsons, will interrogate you.
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Eliot, you have a statement which has just been
presented to us. Do you desire to read the statement and then an-
swer any questions that may come to us ?
Mr. Eliot (reading) :
The National Resources Planning Board, which I serve, has followed with
great interest the study of migration which your committee has been making
and is glad to have been of some assistance in providing materials and in-
formation through its past reports and the testimony of the members of its
staff. As you are, of course, aware, the Board is required by law to be in-
formed of "the trends of business and employment in the United States or any
substantial part thereof" and to make recommendation to the President as to
the need for Government action.
We have noted that your committee has found that the study of migration
inevitably involves the forces which produce migration — for example, you have
heard about the changes in agricultural practices and industrial practices which
have resulted in the displacement of workers. These people have been joining
the ranks of those who move from one place to another in order to find an
opportunity for earning a living.
REPORT ON TWO PHASES OF MIGRATION
Two aspects of this problem have previously been reported upon by the Board
and its predecessors, and I understand that the resulting reports on problems
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3725
of a changing population in 1938 and on technological trends in 1937 have been
of some use to your investigators and their research staff. I have copies of
those reports here today, and, of course, would be delighted to make them
available to the members of your committee.
The Board has also been glad to have their current materials made available
to you in testimony which your committee heard on the west coast when em-
ployees of the Board testified from their own experience. As part of your
records, you have a statement from the Pacific Northwest Regional Planning
Commission and the individual testimony of some of our staff in that office and
in our California office. That testimony indicates the way in which industrial
and agricultural changes are directly related to the specific problems of the
Great Plains, the Pacific Northwest, and the California area.
The Board has been concerned with the problems of "removal" migrants from
the point of view of the places from which they leave as well as of the places
to which they go. Through our field offices and special regional committees we
have made a series of planning studies — in the northern Great Plains, the
valley of the Red River of the North, and the northern Lakes States cut-
over area. These planning investigations are intended to develop the possible
lines of action for Federal, State, and local governments to stabilize the economy
in those areas and to provide economic opportunities that go with at least a
minimum standard of living.
RESOURCES BOARD STT7DIES MIGRATION
As you may know, the Board now has under way a further major study
requested by the President which deals with another of the principal problems
now before you. I refer to the unsettled migrants who need public aid or relief
but who have no settled residence. I regret very much that I am unable to give
you this afternoon the results of the findings of our advisory committee on
long-range work and relief policies. Their study is not yet complete, and a
statement of findings at this time, therefore, would be premature. The technical
committee in charge of this study is composed of William Haber, chairman,
executive director of the National Refuges Services, New York City; Fred K.
Hoehler, director of the American Public Welfare Association, Chicago; C. M.
Bookman, of the Cincinnati Community Chest ; Dr. Will W. Alexander, Farm
Security Administrator ; Corrington Gill, Work Projects Administration ; Miss
Mary E. Switzer, assistant to the Federal Security Administrator ; and Dr.
Katharine F. Lenroot, Chief of the Children's Bureau, Department of Labor.
You will note that this committee, like all our technical advisory groups, is
composed of specialists from both inside and outside the Government. It acts
as a clearing house of facts and opinion. A large part of the work of the
committee is being done in the Federal agencies concerned, through coopera-
tive agreements and understandings. The Board relies heavily, in all its
work, on this kind of cooperative assistance.
This relief committee, as we call it, has mapped out a study with major head-
ings as follows:
Chapter I. Why a Relief Study?
Chapter II. The Problem We Faced, 1930-40.
Chapter III. The Evolution of Policy and Programs, 1930-40.
Chapter ITI-A. The Programs Operating in 1940.
Chapter IV. The Relief Population.
Chapter V. The Operation of Contemporary Programs from the Point of View
of the Economically Insecure Population (it is now contemplated that Chapter
V will have to be presented as two chapters).
Chapter VI. The Administration of Contemporary Programs.
Chapter VII. The Financing of Relief.
Chapter VIII. The Economic Repercussions of Contemporary Relief Policies.
Chapter IX. Accomplishments and Shortcomings of Contemporary Programs.
Chapter X. Summary of Findings and Recommendations.
It is hoped that the report on this study may be available for the President
early in the new year.
You may be interested to know how these planning studies are set up. You
are doubtless aware that the National Resources Planning Board is a part
of the Executive Office of the President and that it consists of three members
3726
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
named by the President. Its regular continuing activities are prescribed by
the Employment Stabilization Act of 1931 and its duties are set forth m an
Executive Order along with those of the other administrative arms of the
President's office— the Bureau of the Budget, the White House staff, the Office
of Government Reports, etc. . . ..^ . .,
The Board is the successor of a series of organizations with similar nanaes
and of the employment stabilization office which was set up In 1931. Its prin-
cipal duties are to make studies or plans for various problems referred to it
by the President, prepare the Federal 6-year program of public works, and to
cooperate with planning agencies and Federal bureaus and departments, re-
gional planning bodies, and State planning boards. The Board and its prede-
cessors have operated during the last several years with a very small nucleus
staff under a director and three assistant directors, through ten field offices,
and a series of special technical committees. It tries to bring together groups
of technicians and specialists from both inside and outside the Government to
prepare carefully documented reports on major issues confronting the Nation.
It has relied heavily on part-time consultants, and from the beginning has
avoided the organization of any large continuing staff in Washington.
Since the Board has a continuing responsibility in the field which your
committee has been exploring, we will continue to follow your activities and
findings with the greatest interest.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES WILLIAM ELIOT— Resumed
Mr. Parsons. Will you explain to us what your duties as director
of the Board and something of its personnel and what studies you
have made or are attempting to make with reference to the migrant
problem ? ,
Mr. EuoT. Mr. Parsons, our Board is part of the Executive Office
of the President. It consists of three members appointed by the
President and confirmed by the Senate.
They have a staff with a director and three assistant directors and
a small nucleus organization here in Washington and in 10 offices scat-
tered over the country.
It has been the policy of the Board to rely upon technical com-
mittees with representatives of the different Federal agencies con-
cerned in any particular project and specialists from private life
who are called in on a consulting or part-time basis to advise in
the preparation of reports.
The work of the Board is outlined in two basic documents, the
Stabilization Act of 1931 and an Executive order of the President
in which he sets up the duties of his Executive Office.
Under those two orders or statements of purpose the Board con-
ducts special studies and investigations of problems from time to
time as they are referred to the Board by the President.
These studies are all related to the resources of the Nation in
terms of both national resources and human resources.
We have noted in the work of your committee that you have gone
beyond the obvious phases of migrants to the causes of migration.
Our Board is similarly concerned with the causes and the backlog
or the background that has brought about this phenomenon of a
large migrant population.
Mr. Parsons. Your Board has also been interested in a long-
range planning program for the conservation of our national re-
sources and for an orderly development of our latent powers such
as water and natural underground resources, and in the long-range
planning, of course, you have come across this very serious migrant
problem.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3727
Now, the committee knows something of your work and the work
of this Board and your duties and the work you have done. It is
very interesting and I wish we had time to have a discussion upon
that in detail, but since this committee is only investigating the
migrant problem I would like to have you present to the committee
your observations and the observations of the Board with reference
to the migrant problem, together with any recommendations that you
care to make, or if any further study is being made about when
we might expect that to be completed and what recommendations
might be included.
Mr. Eliot. The past actions of the Board I can release to you, but
not their current recommendations, since they are a part-time agency
and they are not here in town and I haven't been able to consult
them since I was asked to come up here.
In the past the Board has made two or more special investigations
which are direct in line with the work of this committee, who are
perhaps familiar with the report on technological trends or the rise
and types of various employment, due to technological progi-ess.
I have here a copy of the report which I would be delighted to
give to the committee and also a digest which puts it down in more
understandable and briefer fonn; another large report which we
got out 2 years ago deals with problems of changing population and
has a number of sections in it on economic opportunities in relation
to population problems, and that deals particularly with the large
migration out of rural areas, particularly the south Appalachian
highlands to the industrial center areas. It has been going on and
is likely to increase in the years to come.
REPORT ON NORTHERN GREAT PLAINS
A third report in which you may be interested deals with the
future of the northern Great Plains. We were concerned as to what
caused these migrants to move out of the Great Plains and what
possibilities there might be of establishing a more stable economy
in the area to make it unnecessary for some of the people to move,
or to give those that remained a more permanent and satisfactory
mode of life.
Through a special allotment of Public Works funds we have been
making a special study of what happened to the migrant when he
got into the Pacific Northwest and what opportunities there might
be for him in the way of permanent settlement and permanent
habitation.
That kind of work has also been carried on in the northei'n Lake
States area, in. the cut-over region, as it is called, where there is a
serious problem of insufficient resources and hence migration has
come up, which is the coming and going type of migration rather
than an all-out migration such as characterized parts of the Gi'eat
Plains.
Those reports indicate the type of work which we have been doing
there. We are now engaged on a large-scale study requested by the
President on long-range work and relief policies. I have here the
gy28 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
chapter headings for that study. I am sorry I could not bring you
the study. It is still in preparation, and it would be premature to
hand it over to the committee at this time.
Mr. Parsons. Will that be ready around the first of the year or will
it be sometime in 1941 before it is published ?
Mr. Eliot. We are trying to get it to the President in the next cal-
endar year — early in 1941 — with the hope it may be useful to Congress
during the coming session.
Mr. Parsons. That would be soon enough for this committee and
for the Congress to consider whatever recommendations you have in
this study, and to guide the Congress in any legislation that it may
see fit to pass.
Mr. Eliot. We hope it will help.
Mr. Parsons. Now, what did you find to be the causes of these three
great areas — the migration in them that you have just described?
Mr. Eliot. Well, these reports that I have referred to on the Great
Plains and the northern Lake States and in the Pacific Northwest deal
with different aspects of the situation for those particular areas.
would stabilize plains economy
In the northwest plains I don't need to tell the Congressman from
Nebraska what the problem is. You have been out there yourself.
We were trying to suggest some way of stabilizing the economy
through the provision of water and the encouraging of a cattle economy
as contrasted to exclusive reliance upon wheat or any other single crop.
The report suggests a number of specific projects under the Water
Facilities Act and the Wheeler-Case Act w^hich might be undertaken
to improve the balance in the economy and to provide a more stable
living for those who remain.
In the case of the northern Lake States cut-over area, quite a dif-
ferent policy was suggested under the development of recreational
facilities and of the restoration of the forest cover and of larger hold-
ings of farm property so as to make it possible for a farm family to
get a better living off of a single farm than is now possible in the very
small areas which most of them own. The approach there must be a
different approach. It requires a different kind of solution for that
]iroblem.
Mr. Parsons. In your studies, including all of the States of the
Union, have you found any large area of agricultural lands that could
be made productive for the resettlement for any large number of these
j)eople who are used to the soil and would prefer to live on the soil and
cultivate it, where we might resettle a large number of them?
Mr. Eliot. In the investigation which the predecessor Board made
in 1934, a number of areas were indicated as being possible for future
agricultural development. But since 1934 tlie nature of the agricul-
tural activities and the technological developments I suspect would
have invalidated many of those suggestions. I would hesitate to
make any categorical answer to that question, not having had any
more recent material to work from than 1934.
Mr. Parsons. We have had some witnesses from Wisconsin and
Michigan, and one in particular, that purported to know of two or
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3729
three counties in those States of cut-over lands that would be suitable
tor agricultural purposes. This one witness started off by saying
that they were advertising and inviting people to come there. They
claimed the character of the soil was sufficient for a long-range pro-
ductivity, and that was one of their answers to the problem--they could
take care of several thousands of these migrant families in that area.
That is what prompted my question to you whether this Board had
liad an opportunity to study the more or less uninhabited areas with a
view of the resettlement of a large number of these people.
Mr. Eliot. We relied in all of our studies on the work of the various
Federal agencies directly concerned with the problem. The Board
doesn't do any original research for itself except in a very limited
I xtent. It relies upon the Department of Agriculture or the Depart-
ment of Interior, or whatever the appropriate agency is, and brings
together the opinions and the possibilities from those sources.
Our job is a correlating activity — a clearing-house activity rather
than an original research activity.
Mr. Parsons. But you do agree that this migrant problem is a
national problem?
MIGRATION IS NATIONAL PROBLEM
Mr. Eliot. It certainly is, and one in which the Board is very keenly
interested and anxious to help your committee on.
Mr. Parsons. Will you agree that the Federal Government should
give grants and aid to the States in assisting in not only the destitute
migrants but in a general program of relief ?
Mr. Eliot. I am not qualified to give an answer to that. The study
is in process at the moment, and I certainly am not in a position to
anticipate the findings of the committee.
Mr. Parsons. Well, I think the committee will be vitally interested
in the study that is being made now and being compiled, and I hoi)e
that the Board will make available to the members of the conmiittee
that report when it is published so that the committee may have the
benefit of it.
I think that is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Eliot, in going about the country I have traveled
over 10,000 miles a year, and I have followed this problem but, when
the newspaper boys interview us, about the second question will be,
'•What is the solution?"
When the stoiy unfolds itself to me this migration of destitute
citizens between States brings me to the conclusion that the causes
are coimected with every economic dislocation in this country. There
are many reasons for it — worn-out soil and mechanization, unemploy-
ment, and various other causes. So there cannot be any single solution,
but certainly we can do a little better than we are doing today when
we consider'4,000,000 people last year Avere going from State to State
in their search for employment. We can do better than that. Probably
oyoQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
the first attack should be on these private employment agencies who
take the last dollar of these migrants and shoot them across State Imes
with misinformation as to employment.
We can do something about that. These millions of people who are
mio-rating about the country are 90 percent American citizens, and to
keep kicking them from State to State strikes at the morale of this
country. But what I am trying to get at is this : In doing it there
must be two approaches and you must agree with me on that. There
will be the short-term approach. That is what we are going to do
immediately for them.
For instance, the 900,000 w^ho were let out of W. P. A. There also
will come a time when the farm is worn out and where the cows go and
the chickens will go and they will not starve standing still, so they
move.
Now% it does seem to me that the Federal Government can do better
than we are doing. We at least can give them authentic information
of inventories where there are jobs and where they can locate thern-
selves. We certainly can approach those two things almost unani-
mously, can't w^e ?
Mr. Eliot. I should hope so.
Tlie Chairman. Now, then, your long-term, of course, will be what
we can do to keep them home. The Farm Credit Administration is
tackling that now. They are taking care of 500,000 by making loans
to them, but there is still a million more waiting. You have your
resettlement and as you mentioned irrigation and things of that kind,
but from all the testimony we have heard nearly every witness agreed
to the proposition that this problem of migration between States is
going to grow and not decrease.
Just think of a million people from the Great Plains States, who
have left their homes in the last 10 years. They have left what was
once productive soil and fine farms. On 5,000,000 acres, 25 percent of
the top soil is gone.
So, I am very glad that you said that you considered it a national
problem and that no State alone can handle the situation. That is
positive, isn't it?
Mr. Eliot. Absolutely, sir. It is a national problem of major im-
portance in the wise use of our human resources. If we don't take care
of that, what is it all for anyway ?
The Chairman. We have neglected this problem to such an extent
that the various States are erecting barriers in self-defense against this
migration. The witness who just preceded you named 23 States where
these men left to come to the District of Columbia to work in the
navy yard. We must give attention to this problem because these men
are good American citizens — 90 percent of them — and it seems to me
that we can do much better than we are doing.
For 150 years the Interstate Commerce Commission has taken care
of commodities passing between the States but nothing has been done
for the human being in interstate commerce.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 373]^
STATE DEPORTS CITIZENS OF UNITED STATES
We started our hearings in New York to get away from the idea that
it was solely a California problem alone. That is all we heard when we
tried to get this through Congress. We were told it was a California
problem. Mayor LaGuardia testified that New York had deported
5,000 out of the State last year and spent $3,000,000 in taking care of
them. We are hopeful of devising some legislation that will clarify
the situation and give our American citizens passing from one State
to another a little different status than they have now.
If we can do that I think we have accomplished somethins:, don't vou,
Mr. Eliot?
Mr. Eliot. We have a very interesting problem as to where these
men belong and are they citizens of any State or of the United States.
The Chairman. Your census reports were held up for weeks on that
account. There were hundreds of American citizens who lost their
residence in one State and did not gain it in another and they don't
know where to locate them ; and under conscription they didn't know
what State they were from.
Mr. Eliot. I want to assure you, sir; the Board is very keenly inter-
ested in what your committee has been doing and is very anxious to
help you. I am here only to express that good will and desire to help.
The Chairman. And we certainly appreciate your being here.
Mr. Curtis. Mr. Eliot, for the purpose of the record, what States
do you include in the term "northern Great Plains" ?
Mr. Eliot. The committee was composed of people from the two
Dakotas, Montana, Wyoming, and Nebraska. That was the northern
Great Plains area.
Mr. Curtis. I think the Kesources Planning Board is making a
very distinct contribution to this problem. I was pleased at the
two points you mentioned with reference to the northern Great
Plains with reference to the general type of agriculture and more
attention upon livestock, and the other one the conservation of our
soil and water resources. In some of my counties in this northern
Great Plains area, this drought area, one family out of four have
moved away since 1930. If this committee brings in a recommenda-
tion that pertains to the relief — only the fair and just and appro-
priate relief for these migrants who are elsewhere in the world, they
haven't affected the three families who stayed at home, have they,
and when one of those three families finally have to give up and join
that army of moving people our problem is doubled and still no
permanent solution. Therefore I feel that the work that your Plan-
ning Board is doing is making a most distinct contribution to this
because it makes a permanent solution of the problem at the point
of its origin,
Mr. Eliot. You want to attack it at both ends, Mr. Curtis.
Mr. Curtis. Certainly.
Mr. Eliot. Both as to the stable way of life where they now are
and also to take care of them when they do move, if they have to.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
260370— 41— pt.
3732
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The Chairman. Mr. Eliot, migration made this country originally
but, of course, we haven't any more frontiers and we haven't as
many jobs. We are up against a different proposition. But you
feel that after the studies you have made of this problem, that it is
bound to exist in this country as long as we exist as a Nation, do
you not ?
Mr. Eliot. Do you mean migration?
The Chairman. Yes; from State to State.
Mr. Eliot. I think that is one of the aspects of the genius of the
American people, that they regard the whole Nation as home— not
any particular one part of it.
The Chairman. And the Constitution says so; you are not only
a resident of the State of New York— I mean a citizen, but you are
a citizen of the other 48 States under the Constitution. But it does
not work out very practically on account of the barriers raised by
some of the States.
We thank you very much for your valuable contribution.
The committee will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
(Whereupon at 4 p. m., the hearing was adjourned until 10 a m..
Tuesday, December 10, 1940.)
INTERSTATE MIGEATION
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 10, 1940
House of Kepresentatives.
Select Committee to Investigate the
Interstate ^Migration of Destitute Citizens,
Washington^ D. C.
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John H. Tohm (chairman)
presiding.
Present: Representatives John H. Tohm, chairman; Claude V.
Parsons; John J. Sparkman; Carl T. Curtis; and Frank C. Osmers,
Jr.
Also present : Dr. Robert K. Lamb, chief investigator ; Henry H.
Collins, Jr., coordinator of field hearings; Creekmore Fath and John
W. Abbott, field investigators; Ariel E. V. Dunn and Alice M. Tuoliy,
assistant field investigators; Irene M. Hageman, hearings secretary;
Richard S. Blaisdell, editor ; Harold D. Cullen, associate editor.
The Chairman. The committee will please come to order. This
is a continuation of the congressional hearings investigating the
migration of destitute citizens between States.
Mrs. Franklin D. Roosevelt, will be a witness this morning. Mrs,
Alberta Thomas will be the first witness.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ALBERTA THOMAS
The Chairman. This is a little strange surrounding for you this
morning, but you have traveled all over the country and you should
be able to get along with us, so you feel right at home.
Your full name is what ?
Mrs. Thomas. Alberta Thomas.
The Chairman. And is your family with you 'I
Mrs. Thomas. Five children are with me.
The Chairman. How many children have you ?
Mrs. Thomas. I have six.
The Chairman. Are the six hereiiow or just five ?
Mrs. Thomas. No; just five.
The Chairman. How old are they?
Mrs. Thomas. 20, 18, 12, 10, and 3'.
The Chairman. And how old is the youngest ?
ISIrs. Thomas. Three years old.
The Chairman. Is your husband here today ?
Mrs. Thomas. No.
3733
oy34 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The Chairman. Where is he?
Mrs. Thomas. He is working.
The Chairman. What is he doing?
Mrs. Thomas. Electrician's work.
The Chairman. How long has he had that job ?
Mrs. Thomas. Since last Monday.
The Chairman. What is his job?
Mrs. Thomas. Installing oil burners for a coal company.
The Chairman. Where do you live now ?
Mrs. Thomas. At Alexandria Tourist Camp.
The Chairman. Are you living in a house ?
Mrs. Thomas. No ; in a trailer.
The Chairman. The eight of you are living in a trailer ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What part of the country do you call your home ?
Mrs. Thomas. Originally St. Louis, Mo.
The Chairman. Did you live there until 1934 ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When did you leave Missouri ?
Mrs. Thomas. In October 1934.
The Chairman. Were you and your family ever on relief in St.
Louis ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. For how long ?
Mrs. Thomas. The best I can remember it was 7 months.
The Chairman. How much did you get a month ?
Mrs. Thomas. It was $11 a week for groceries.
The Chairman. Did you get along on that amount of money all
right ?
Mrs. Thomas. No, sir.
The Chairman. Well, why did you leave St. Louis, Mo.?
Mrs. Thomas. Because my family all were under doctor's care —
all sick.
family leaves MISSOURI IN $ 2 5 CAR
The Chairman. And how did you leave Missouri ?
Mrs. Thomas. Sold my furniture and bought a car.
The Chairman. What did you get for the furniture ?
Mrs. Thomas. Got $30 for the furniture.
The Chairman. How much cash did you have when the family
left?
Mrs. Thomas. I think I had 65 cents.
The Chairman. You had 65 cents when you started on the road?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir; after we bought 5 gallons of gasoline.
The Chairman. How much did the car cost?
Mrs. Thomas. $25.
The Chairman. And where did you go from St. Louis in 1934?
Mrs. Thomas. We went as far as Phoenix, Ariz.
The Chairman. And where did you sleep at night, Mrs. Thomas?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3735
Mrs. Thomas. We slept in cabins when we could afford them and
when w^e couldn't get a cabin we slept on army cots with a tarpaulin
for a cover and the children slept in the car.
The Chairman. You and your husband slept on the army cots and
the children slept in the car?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That 65 cents did not last very long, did it ?
Mrs. Thomas. No, sir.
TWO BOYS support FAMILY AS MUSICIANS
The Chairman. Before you left Missouri did you discover some-
thing about your two boys being able to earn a little money playing
musical instruments?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir ; and when we got in Del Kio, Tex.
The Chairman. Tell us about that, Mrs. Thomas.
Mrs. Thomas. My husband earned our way until we got to Del
Rio by selling corn medicine and after we arrived at Del Rio we
parked on a street in front of a church and I had the children
practicing their music as usual, which they did every day. They
were playing church pieces, sacred pieces, and the lady in a shoeshop
came out and invited them in her shop to play for her husband.
When her husband heard them she asked me if I would let them go
to a friend of hers that owned a cafe. I told her if she would wait
until my husband came back to the car I would ask him, which she
did. She met me about the same time my husband did and asked
him for permission for the children to go and he finally decided they
should go up and play.
She said if they didn't pick up any money she would pay them
for the trouble of going up there.
When they went to this cafe they collected 90 cents. That en-
couraged the children and the lady persuaded us to let them go around
and see if they couldn't pick up some more money. They collected
around $6 that night, enough to carry us across the desert and
mountains, and we went on to Bisbee, Ariz.
The Chairman. Now, in your travels how many States did you
go into ?
Mrs. Thomas. I have been in 42.
The Chairman. And you subsequently acquired a trailer, didn't
you ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes; my husband built a trailer after we was on
the road.
The Chairman. Well, during all the time of your traveling for a
period of about 6 years through the 48 States, what did you live on ?
Mrs. Thomas. Lived on the income of what my two sons made.
The Chairman. Wliat musical instruments do they play?
Mrs. Thomas. Violin and guitar.
The Chairman. How old are the two boys ?
Mrs. Thomas. 18 and 20.
The Chairman. Well, where would they play to earn this money ?
Mrs. Thomas. They would go into cafes at first when they were
smaller, and barber shops and garages or any place where they would
oyog INTERSTATE MIGRATION
think anybody would be interested in music, and ask them for per-
mission to play. When they got permission to play they played.
The Chairman. For practically 6 years your family of eight lived
on the earnings of your two boys playing the violin and the guitar?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did your husband look for work?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And he was unable to obtain any work?
iNIrs. Thomas. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. And what work does he do ?
Mrs. Thomas. He is an electrician — can do most anything.
attempt TO FARM FAILS
The Chairman. And during your travels, Mrs. Thomas, did you
ever attempt to settle down on a farm or something of that kind ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Where was that ?
Mrs. Thomas. In Higdon, Mo. We bought a tract of land— 40
acres— and we built a cabin on it and made a cistern, but we just
couldn't make a go of it.
The Chairman. How much did you pay for the land?
Mrs. Thomas. It was $200.
The Chairman. How much did you pay down ?
Mrs. Thomas. Paid $15 down.
The Chairman. What kind of land was it?
Mrs. Thomas. Rolling land.
The Chairman. Did it have cut-over timber on it? Did you have
to clear it ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes.
The Chairman. But you could not make a go of it and so you
left, is that right?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes ; we had to get up and leave.
The Chairman. Well, I wish you would tell the committee, Mrs.
Thomas, where you went after leaving Arizona. You first went from
Missouri to Arizona?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And then where did you go?
Mrs. Thomas. We came back from Arizona through Missouri again
and up to Pennsylvania. Then from Pennsylvania back to St. Louis.
Then out west toward Cheyenne, Wyo. And then we went right down
the west coast to Arizona again and then we came back from Arizona
back to Missouri. Then we went back south to Texas again and over
into Florida.
The Chairman. Did you meet many people on the road like your-
selves^— traveling to look for work?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes ; quite a few.
The Chair:man. And how were they traveling — in automobiles?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you become acquainted with them?
Mrs. Thomas. We didn't have very much time to associate with
many people. We were going too fast ourselves.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3737
The Chairman. Have you a car now?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What kmd of a car is it?
Mrs. Thomas. Ford V-8.
The Chairman. What model?
Mrs. Thomas. 1938.
The Chairman. And what was the model of the first car that you
started out with?
Mrs. Thomas. It was a 1927 Buick.
children educated by mother at home
The Chairman. About what schooling have your children had?
Mrs. Thomas. I taught them as long as they were unable to go to
school. They were too delicate to go to school in St. Louis. They
asked me to take Selby and Johnnie out of school on account of sick-
ness. I had to board them out in the country and I didn't have the
money to send them to the country.
The Chairman. And are they going to school now?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, you were the teacher for them, were
you?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And how^ much education did you have?
Mrs. Thomas. Seventh grade.
The Chairman. Are the children all healthy now?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chair^^ian. What was the matter with them at the time you
left Missouri ?
Mrs. Thomas. Selby had sinus trouble and a mastoid operation.
Janet had heart trouble.
The Chairman. And that has cleared up now, has it ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, they are at the present time in
good health?
Mrs. Thomas. In perfect health now.
The Chairman. How long have you been in Washington, Mrs.
Thomas?
Mrs. Thomas. Since June 2.
The Chairman. And your husband obtained work here in Wash-
ington last Monday ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir ; with a coal company.
The Chairman. But he is an electrician ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. But you left St. Louis, Mo., in 1934 and you
traveled for a period of 6 years through 42 States ?
ISIrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And your husband was unable to obtain em-
ployment ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And the family of eight lived on what your two
boys earned playing the violin and the guitar?
3738 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, did you ever ask for relief, Mrs. Thomas, in
any of these States?
Mrs. Thomas. No, sir.
The Chaieman. How many months were you on relief in Missouri ?
Mrs. Thomas. I believe it was about 7 months.
family sleeps in trailer
The Chairman. Now, during the 6-year period that you were
traveling through 42 States, where would the family sleep at night?
Mrs. Thomas. Well, they slept in the trailer or car or whatever we
had, or in a tent. We had a tent for a little while.
The Chairman. And they are now sleeping at nights in the trailer
in Alexandria, Va. ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir ; and in the car.
The Chairman. What is that ?
Mrs. Thomas. Trailer and car.
The Chairman. How much money is your husband earning?
Mrs. Thomas. $30 a week.
The Chairman. Do you think you will be able to get along all
right on that?
Mrs. Thomas. Well, with the boys' help I will.
The Chairman. Are you sending the children to school ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many of them ?
Mrs. Thomas. There are two going to school now.
The Chairman. You only went to the seventh grade in school. Do
you think that your children, with what you taught them at home,
are on an average with other children of their age ?
Mrs. Thomas. Well, I could not say that, no, because I did not
have that good of an education myself. But I taught them to the
best of my ability what I knew.
Tlie Chairman. When you bought the land in Missouri, did you
live in a house there ?
Mrs. Thomas. Lived in a trailer and following that in a log cabin.
It was a one-room log cabin. Then we built an additional room to
it out of some lumber.
The Chairman. How do you like Washington?
Mrs. Thomas. Fine.
The Chairman. I take it, Mrs. Thomas, that had you been able to
make a go of it in Missouri on a farm, you would have been glad to
stay at home, wouldn't you ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes ; I would.
The Chairman. Do you think you will make Alexandria, Va.,
your home now ?
Mrs. Thomas. I would like to make Washington my home.
The Chairman. Have you any relatives any place?
Mrs. Thomas. Oh, yes ; in Missouri.
The Chairman. Were they ever able to help you?
Mrs. Thomas. No ; they wasn't able.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3739
The Chairman. But for the 6 years after 1934 your husband was
not able to get any position and contribute to the support of the
family, is that true?
Mrs. Thomas. That is true.
The Chairman. The two boys playing the guitar and violin were
able to earn enough money to -support the entire family?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Congressman Parsons.
Mr. Parsons. Mrs. Thomas, how long have the children been in
school since you have been in Alexandria ?
Mrs. Thomas. They started when school started in Alexandria.
Mr. Parsons. In September?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
Mr. Parsons. Have they had any tests at school so as to compare
their ability with other children of the same age in their school?
Mrs. Thomas. They have their report cards.
Mr. Parsons. Are they about in the same grade as children of
their age who are in the same school ?
Mrs. Thomas. Well, I believe a child at 12 years old, the teacher
explained, was supposed to be in the sixth grade, and Janet is in
the fifth.
Mr. Parsons. So they probably are retarded from one to two
grades because of your migrations into various parts of the country ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
Mr. Parsons. Are the boys still keeping up their musical training?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
Mr. Parsons. Do they make any funds for the family now?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
Mr. Parsons. Where do they work ?
Mrs. Thomas. They entertain in night clubs.
Mr. Parsons. Here in Washington or in Virginia?
Mrs. Thomas. In Washington and in Maryland.
Mr. Parsons. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Sparkman.
Mr. Sparkman. Mrs. Thomas, you say your husband is an elec-
trician ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. How old is he?
Mrs. Thomas. Thirty-seven.
Mr. Sparkman. I wonder if he has tried to get work with any of
the navy yards or in any of the defense projects?
Mrs. Thomas. Well, I believe he did at Fort Meade.
Mr. Sparkman. Wliy was he not successful ?
Mrs. Thomas. He was offered a job as an electrician for $1.65 an
hour, but he had to join the union. He went to see about the union
and they wanted $300 to join the union. We didn't have the cash
money.
Mr. Sparkman. What union was it that wanted $300 from him to
join it?
Mrs. Thomas. Electricians' union, that is all I know about it
Mr. Sparkman. Was it here in Washington 2
3740
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mrs. Thomas. I believe it was ; yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You don't know the number of the local ?
Mrs. Thomas. No; I don't.
Mr. Sparkman. Did they want all of that in cash or some on terms ?
Mrs. Thomas. They wanted it in cash. He told them he would pay
them so much a week if he could get the job, and they didn't want it
that way.
Mr. Sparkman. How much did he offer to pay them a week?
Mrs. Thomas. I think it was $5 a week. He offered to pay whatever
he could pay — just any way to get the job.
Mr. Sparkman. Now, he was offered a job at $1.65 an hour provided
he was a member of the union ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. But the local wanted $300 for membership ?
Mrs. Thomas. Cash; yes, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. They would not take it on terms ?
Mrs. Thomas. No, sir ; they would not give him a permit.
Mr. Sparkman. And he was not able to pay that ?
Mrs. Thomas. No, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. How much cash did he have available?
Mrs. Thomas. Well, we didn't have any cash right then. We had
just had a wreck with our car and a payment was due on the car.
Mr. Sparkman. Is that the car you paid $25 for?
Mrs. Thomas. That is the car we have now. We have had it only
about 2 months.
Mr. Sparkman. That is the only thing you had which you might
raise cash on?
Mrs. Thomas. We don't even have the car paid for yet.
Mr. Sparkman. And instead of getting the job of $1.65 an hour he
is earning $30 a week?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Congressman Osmers.
Mr. Osmers. Mrs. Thomas, is it your preference to live the life you
are now leading or would you prefer to live at home and live a normal
life with your family?
Mrs. Thomas. Well, I would rather live a normal life with my
family.
Mr. Osmers. Do you feel that if your husband could get one of
these national-defense jobs you would secure a home and live that
kind of a life?
Mrs. Thomas. Well, I would try my best to.
Mr. Osmers. That is all I have.
The Chairman. Congressman Curtis.
Mr. Curtis. Just one thing, Mrs. Thomas. Have your children
even been denied admission to a school when you would go into a
community just for a short time?
Mrs. Thomas. Well, we had to pay pretty dear to p-pt them in
school.
Mr. Curtis. Had to pay rather high?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3741
Mr. Curtis. Where was that?
Mrs. Thomas. In Florida.
Mr. Curtis. What did they charge you?
Mrs. Thomas. I don't remember.
Mr. Curtis. Do you recall?
Mrs. Thomas. I think it was $3 for each child, and then we had
to buy the books. It cost us $9.70 to start the three girls in school.
Mr. Curtis. For how long did that pay their tuition?
Mrs. Thomas. Well, it was supposed to pay for the term, I believe.
Mr. Curtis. David was 14 years old when you started in 1934,
was he not ?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
jNlr. Curtis. Has he been in school any since then ?
Mrs. Thomas. No, sir.
Mr. Curtis. And Selby was about 12?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Did he go to school after you were on the road?
Mrs. Thomas. No; we taught him and David, too. They had their
lessons just the same.
Mr. Curtis. Then only three of them attended any public school?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Wliat time of the year did you move into this Florida
community ?
Mrs. Thomas. About the first of the year.
Mr. Curtis. And because of that tuition situation you did not
send the children?
Mrs, Thomas. Yes, sir ; I sent the children.
Mr. Curtis. But at no point did they deny admission to schools?
Mrs. Thomas. No; they let them go to school if they had the
money. They asked us to get a Florida license on our car, which we
did.
Mr. Curtis. That was one of the requirements when you asked
for the children to go to school ?
Mrs. Thomas. Wlien we took the children to Pipers School, they
asked us if we had a Florida tag on our car and, of course, we had
bought a tag there the year before. We told them we had an old tag,
but we intended to get a Florida tag. They said, "All right, it won't
cost you as much." But we had to put out the $9.70 for books just
the same and the $3 for tuition.
Mr. Curtis. Do you know Avhether that was the regular charge or
was that a special charge because you were not a resident ?
Mrs. Thomas. I don't know that.
Mr. Curtis. That is all.
Mr. Sparkman. One more question. Mrs. Thomas, has your hus-
band ever filed an application with the Civil Service Commission for
a job in any of these defense projects?
Mrs. Thomas. No, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. I notice they are asking for skilled workers con-
tinuously. I might suggest that he look into the possibility of filing
an application with the Civil Service Commission.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
3742 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The Chairman. Mrs. Thomas, the two sons that you refer to in
your testimony are on the front seat here in the hearing room?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And what is the name of the little girl?
Mrs. Thomas. The baby?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mrs. Thomas. Sonja.
The Chairman. And there are six altogether?
Mrs. Thomas. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mrs. Thomas.
Mrs. Thomas. You are entirely welcome.
The Chairman. For giving us your testimony. We appreciate
it very much.
Mrs. Thomas. Thank you.
The Chairiman. Mrs. Roosevelt is the next witness.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT
yoi
Wi
The Chairman. Mrs. Roosevelt, the committee is very grateful to
ou for appearing here this morning. We appreciate it very much.
e have held hearings in New York, Alabama, Illinois, Nebraska,
Oklahoma, and California, to show the Nation it was not just a one-
State problem.
We started off in New York with Mayor LaGuardia. He called
our attention to the fact that last year in New York they had sent
back to their home States 5,000 people at an expense of $3,000,000.
Through the United States we found the press and the public and
the people very courteous to us. You know how the heart of the
American people can be touched.
We will start off by introducing the members of the committee.
The Congressman on my extreme right is Congressman Sparkman,
of Alabama. Next to him is Congressman Parsons, of Illinois. On
my left is Congressman Osmers, of New Jersey, and on my extreme
left is Mr. Curtis, of Nebraska.
The resolution creating this committee passed Congress in April
and we started out with our first hearing in New York with Mayor
LaGuardia our first witness. He designated this problem as a na-
tional problem and said the condition was very bad in New York.
As I said, they sent 5,000 people home in 1 year and spent $3,000,000
in doing it.
We found the same situation in Alabama, Illinois, Nebraska,
Oklahoma, and California. I want to tell you what we did. We
had witnesses not onlj^ from New York, but from adjoining States.
Then we communicated with every Governor and every mayor in the
United States to get a pen picture of the facts in their own individual
States. When we file our report, I think we will have a factual
document.
I also want to say to you that this is a unique congressional com-
mittee. We have never issued a subpena; we have never attempted
to cross-examine any witnesses. We simply want to get the facts.
And so, Mrs. Roosevelt, if you will make any statement which you
care to in your own way we will appreciate it.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3743
Mrs. Roosevelt. Well, I don't feel, of course, that I have any infor-
mation which you haven't already acquired, and probably with a
great deal more authentication than I have.
All I can do is to tell you what I have seen and the impressions
that I have gathered from talking to people in different parts of
the country. You have had a much better opportunity than I have.
You know more about it than I do and you have probably looked
up statistics which I haven't had an opportunity to do.
The Chairman. We found, Mrs. Roosevelt, in New York that you
were ahead of us.
Mrs. Roosevelt. Well, I can only tell you what I happened to see.
That I will be more than glad to do.
CALirORNLA. MIGRAXT CAMPS
Now, in California I tried in a very brief time to see all the dif-
ferent types of camps because I had noticed that outside almost
every village or town of any size you could see on the outskirts a
settlement which was growing up of cars with shacks or tents or
trailers or almost anything, sometimes without any pattern at all,
and other times on land which some foresighted person had purchased
and was renting. And in certain places there would be electric
lights. That would add to the rent because it would mean that in
the tent there would be an electric bulb let in through the top. But
sometimes it was just a plain squatter camp growing up.
And I went to one which I suppose would be called a jungle type
of thing where they paid no rent, down by a river, which was pretty
bad — no sanitation, no effort toward taking care of sanitation in
any way.
Then I went to a county camp where the county was providing
certain safeguards. That was pretty bad, too, but they did make an
effort in the way of providing certain safeguards. It happened it
had rained the day before I was there and a number of tents had
been flooded and they were having to move out because no precau-
tions had been taken as to how their tent should be placed or where
it was put.
There was an effort at the community building to help these people
to a certain extent. An effort was made to provide a washing
machine and a place to wash clothes and there was an attempt at
having some kind of shower arrangement. If I remember correctly,
there were two showers and two toilets in that camp.
Then I went to a strange place that I suppose might be called a
private enterprise. It was land rented out with fences around small
plots on which people were allowed to build their own houses. Wlien
they left, they could sell what they left there. I saw a man and his
wife and children living on a plot of ground, which they were clean-
ing up. He had bought the house, which was largely built out of
scraps of corrugated iron and heavy paper of different kinds. And
a very interesting thing, because it seemed to me it showed an entire
lack of supervision of sanitation, was the fact that the pipe for the
water was immediately next to the toilet. Apparently that didn't
3744
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
bother anybody. But I am sure they must have epidemics at differ-
ent periods of the year in those camps. I don't know whether you
found that in your investigations, but it seemed to me it was
inevitable.
One thing that interested me was the story of a young man who
came from Oklahoma originally. He trekked all the way out to
California and then he heard there was some work in the oil fields
of Oklahoma and he trekked all the way back and looked for some
work and got a little work for a short time. Then he lost his job
again, so he was back in California to start out again.
And finally, after looking at every type of camp that I could find, I
went to the Government Farm Security camps — the different ones
that they have out there. I think they have done a good thing in
making a model. It isn't enough, but it is a good thing if other
people would follow the pattern.
Outside of those camps, which are really for people who are going-
to move on, they have accommodations for people who really get a
job which will last a little while. These are little, tiny bits of land
with little houses on them. These are particularly valuable from the
point of view that a great many of these people have not been
farmers. We think of them all as being from the Dust Bowl or
some place like that, but many of them have not been farmers, and
many of them have. But even those who have been very frequently
failed because they have no modern direction in farming. They
have done what their grandfathers did before them. I have an idea
that what they get under expert supervision in cultivating small acre-
ages like that will be very useful if they ever again do acquire land
of their own. They will have learned some fundamental things that
even if they have been farmers they haven't had an opportunity to
learn before.
Now, I noticed this year in Texas, just lately, that that same type
of jungle growth outside of small places is occurring. There are a
few Farm Security camps that have just been established, but I
noticed the jungle developments from the train window. They are
sufficiently evident to see in that way.
It is, of course, easy to understand. Texas is a very big Stat€.
People think of it as a land of opportunity. They will go back from
the cities to farms and farm families where the land for generations
has been so badly farmed that it cannot support the people left on
it, much less those who return from the cities.
That means a lowering of the standard of living for the entire
group. You find them going back to the Kentucky mountains where^
Heaven knows, the farm never was able to support them, and the
entire standard for the whole group goes down.
DESTRUCTIVE LIVING CONDITIONS
NoAV, this situation has implications for the future which I think
are very serious. It has health implications to begin with. The
people, "all of them, young and old, are deteriorating in health. No-
body gets proper care for the eyes or the teeth or malnutrition — bad
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3745
nutrition— lack of change of diet. That sort of thing has a perma-
nent effect on all the people and particularly on the children.
Now, that is a purely physical thing. From the point of view of
education I think this migration is done largely by the finer people,
the people that still have adventure in their souls. That is not
universally so, but it is frequently so. You find they are of very
good stock. You will be struck by the beauty of some of the chil-
dren, real fineness of features. And they have bright minds. But
they are not getting the continuity of education which any child
gets who stays in one place and has a home.
The bad feeding and the bad environment and the bad conditions
are factors. These people put forth a terrific effort to make their
living conditions as decent as possible, but they can't be good con-
ditions. I think we are gomg to see the results reflected in the
ability of those young people to make a living, to stick to a standard,
that is, a decent, American standard. You cannot use your brain
as well if you are physically run down.
I think that condition is very serious to us for the future, because
these are big families. They are really the families that are fur-
nishing the increase in our j^opulation. When they go back to the
Mountain States and back into the South that is where the increase
in population is coming in the future.
The lowering of standards of living is a very serious thing, I be-
lieve. You haven't been in Florida, but there is some migratory
labor there, too, and a good deal in the Everglades. Last year I
went in to see what the Government camps were doing and I was
struck by one very curious thing. I have always thought that a
very good example would stimulate the neighborhood to live up to
it. They have one sugar plantation there, where the manager is a
Quaker, that is most beautifully run. He, being a practical Quaker,
told me that he did it that way because it paid him. But he got
the same migratory labor coming in every year from Georgia and
South Carolina and Alabama and they came year after year because
they knew their conditions would be decent.
I have forgotten now the exact amount but he told me how much
money they sent back into those States. It was really a very big
sum of money, because it is a big plantation. But right next to
that plantation was a jungle under the worst conditions I have ever
seen.
They had started to burn it down and I hope by now it is com-
pletely burned down, because it was a firetrap. If a fire had started
there in the nighttime the people on the second floor — there were
two stories — would have burned to xleath without any question. It
was like a rabbit warren — they were that close together. There
was only one hydrant for water. Everybody got their water from
that one hydrant. There was only one toilet to accommodate a teem-
ing population.
Now, in the Everglades, of course, there are both white and colored.
The colored work at certain things in the fields, while the white peo-
ple work in the canning industry. The conditions of both are equally
bad.
gy^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The problem is one of absentee ownership, too, because people will
come down and they will go in with someone who lives in Palm
Beach or anywhere around to rent some of this land. Then they
turn it over to a manager. They use contract labor, you see. The
trucks drive in in the morning and everybody climbs aboard. When
they have got the number they can take, they drive away. If a man
is late and cannot climb aboard the truck fast enough, he doesn't get
a job. If he is early he does get one.
FUTURE TOLL FROM PRESENT UNHEALTHY SITUATION
Well, the situation is unhealthy all the way through. It is bad for
our future. Somehow in talking to those people you get a feeling that
they haven't the remotest idea of what it means to be a citizen in a
democracy. That, I think, is something we should be thinking about
today because it is very important that everybody should know what
he wants to defend and why. , ,
I have been really quite distressed as I saw what these conditions
might mean. The "people who live in those conditions there move
north with the chance of getting work. You see them everywhere.
You can meet them in New York State. I have seen them there.
And it isn't the mere fact that they are migratory. Wliat they be-
come toudies community after community throughout the country. I
think in the future the young people are going to present a heavy
burden as cases in tuberculosis hospitals and prisons unless we devise
some means of seeing that education moves with them and that they
have sufficient chance to work for a living wage.
We have to have certain migration. There is no doubt about that.
But it has got to be made so that people can live with some decency.
Otherwise I think we an in for a very difficult and rather dangerous
situation for us all.
DISSEMINATA N OF MISLEADING INFORMATION
The Chairman. Now, Mrs. Koosevelt, our investigation discloses
that there are about 000,000 people migrating between States.
That is the figure for last year. The record also discloses that when
they go to private employment agencies they are given wrong infor-
mation merely for the purpose of getting their money. They are
promised jobs which are not there.
Of course, this committee will have some jurisdiction and some
regulation regarding that because that is interstate commerce.
Mrs. Roosevelt. Well, over and over again people I have talked to
have shown me those little flyers given out which they had picked up
somewhere and they had made the move to another place. Now, I
don't Imow- who furnishes those flyers or who distributes them but I
have seen them in their possession — a number of different flyers say-
ing: "Here work is available."
The Chairman. You see not only that but when those good people
describe to you how they started out from home on account of certain
circumstances over which they had no control, it becomes a matter of
considerable concern to all of us.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3747
They are good American citizens and the question is how are we
going "to treat them. At least we will have to give them reliable
information.
The Federal Government should be able to give them correct in-
formation as to where there are jobs and where there are no jobs.
They should have that before they leave home and while on the
way. Instead of being kicked around as they are now, they shoiild
be given a helping hand.
You see, Mrs. Roosevelt, what we have done in this country in
150 years is to protect and regulate religiously iron and coal and
steel" passing through the States. We have the Interstate Commerce
Commission to take care of that. But we haven't done very much
for human interstate commerce so far as the record goes. In self-
defense the States now have raised barriers from 6 months up to 5
years.
Well, what are we going to do? You are a citizen of the State
of New York and under the Constitution you are a citizen of the
other 47 States, but when you start out to move it doesn't work out
verv practically.
So this committee, with the assistance of your testimony and
that of others, hope that first we will be able to give the people who
have to move and do move reliable information and protect them
in every way we possibly can.
EFFECT OF DIFFERING RULES ON RELIEF
Mrs. Roosevelt. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman? Have you
found that tlie differing rules on relief have made a great deal^ of
difference? For instance, one of the things that troubles me is that
rules have been made to keep people out an--^yet people go and then
you find such really terrible situations.
People are being sent back where nobod feels any sense of re-
sponsibility for them and they are really gdi- 'g. back very often with
no future 'anywhere, no hope. Is there ai. thing you have found
that would change that condition?
The Chairinian. Well, I am speaking for'Miyself personally, Mrs.
Roosevelt. I talked to these people throughout the country, par-
ticularly those who came from the farms, and I have not found one
who would not have liked to have stayed home if he could. They
had various reasons for moving — like this migrant family here —
and that is tlie trouble with this problem. It is really directly or
indirectly connected with every economic dislocation we have. Do
you have anything to say, Ccmgressmnn Parsons?
Mr. PaeS!NS. Mrs. Roosevelt, it is quite coincidental. Starting
in New York with the hearing we had Mayor LaGuardia, as Mr.
Tolan told you. Well, he is a' very much traveled migrant himself
and so is tlie chairman of our committee — from Minnesota to Mon-
tana, and Mcmtana to California, and California to Congress, and
you are very much of a traveling migrant as well as the rest of us.
I believe yoii are styled No. 1 migrant.
260370— 41— pt. !
qy^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
I know that you have seen a great deal of these conditions. We are
very happy to have you with us. We have had several recommenda-
tions made about giving gi-ants-in-aid to the States for the purpose
of aiding those States in taking care of destitute migrants.
HANDLE MIGRATION THROUGH COORDINATED EFFORTS OF GOVERNMENT
AGENCIES
Do you think this is a national problem and that the Federal
Government should give grants-in-aid to these States ?
Mrs. Roosevelt. I think it is a national problem, but I do not
feel that I am sufficiently informed about it to make any recom-
mendations as to how it should be handled.
I think there is no question that it is a national problem but I
feel that I am not fitted to make any recommendations.
Mr. Parsons. Well, you have been quite a leader in the public-wel-
fare field. If the Congress should decide to give grants in aid to the
States, where do you thing the administrative agency should be set
up— in social security, labor, farm security, or where?
Mrs. Roosevelt. Well, that would depend on many things. There
are so many factors involved that I would want to think that over very
carefully. I think that for certain people in certain places the Farm
Security Administration has done the outstanding job. On the other
hand, you might find that in other places you would have to have a
combination of responsibility, that it couldn't all be taken by one
agency.
For that reason I think that you would have to have all those agen-
cies in and find out what they had been doing, what had fallen to their
lot, whether they wanted it or not. In that way you could make a
decision as to how to handle it in the most helpful way.
Of course, all these things depend largely on the choice of personnel
for their success. The pattern which works beautifully in one place
because you happen to have a human being who understands the prob-
lem might be a total failure in another place. You have always got
to bear that in mind. I think you should do whatever you do with as
much flexibility as possible, this is a changing problem. You are
always going to find different situations that have to be met.
The medical side of this problem is a tremendous problem. There
is a great need for some kind of medical service for groups of people
of this kind.
Mr. Parsons. Well, we also had a suggestion made to the committee
that a coordinated board might be made up, composed of one from
agriculture, one from Public Health Service, one from labor, one from
the social security, and probably from the Employment Service, to
constitute a coordinated board and probably lodge the administrative
work under the Social Security Board. The idea is, however, to have
the one board doing that work — a coordinated board of representatives
of the several departments.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3749
INCLUDE EDUCATION IN TROGRAM FOR MIGRANT AID
Mrs. KoosEVELT. I should think it would be desirable to use any
agency in any place where the necessity may arise. But I think you
should add some representative from education if possible.
Mr. Parsons. That has been mentioned.
I was very much impressed with what you said concerning the lack
of educational opportunities and facilities of these migrant people.
We have found that there were some fifty or sixty thousand on the
road from Florida, beginning about now, coming up the Atlantic coast,
and winding up in the State of New Jersey, where they dig potatoes
along in August, and then back to the southern States, where they will
gather tobacco and pick cotton.
That has been increasing for the last 10 or 1.5 years. In another
decade we are going to have these same migrant children with their
families making the same rounds more or less, none of them ever hav-
ing seen the inside of a schoolroom for probably more than a year.
Mrs. KoosEVELT. I wonder if a thing I got from a young Harvard
student would interest you. He went with the C. C. C. camp as
an educational ad^nser. He was just out of Harvard. One of the
boys asked for a recommendation when he was leaving. The young
Harvard boy would not give it to him. So the boy came in and
said: "Wliy won't you give me a recommendation?"
The other boy said : "Because you did not take advantage in
your off time of any of the educational opportunities offered to you
here."
The boy looked at him, and he said: "How could I? I never had
any education. My father never earned enough money to give us
kids more than potatoes to eat. If I go home I will get that kind
of a job because I am not fitted for any other, and my kids will
eat potatoes," and the rest of the circle as it goes around.
Now you see even if they go to school for a short time they drop
out again and they are back always at the place they started. They
never really get anywhere in their education.
Mr. Parsons. The suggestion was made by a representative of the
Department of Education, who appeared before the committee the
other day, that we might place on the road itinerant teachers to
conduct schools right along in the camps wherever these migrants
move — have certain hours of the day or night for school work.
Mrs. RoosEX'ELT. You will have to do something about child labor.
Mr. Parsons. W^ll, after all, we have found that the children of
the inigrant families are the ones who can make more money for the
family than the heads of the family.
Mrs. Roosevelt. Exactly.
Mr. Parsons. Because they are young.
Mrs. Roose\t:lt. But they don't make it because they get good
wages; they make it only because there are a lot of them.
Mr. Parsons. That is true.
Mrs. Roosevelt. And because they work long hours.
Mr. Parsons. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
3750 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkman. Mrs. Koosevelt, as you know, there are now ia
social security three different categories, one for aid to the aged,
one for aid to the blind, and one for aid to dependent children.
One suggestion that has been made to us many different times is
that a fourth category should be added to the Social Security Board
to provide for direct relief or general relief and that one phase of
that would take care of the migrant problem.
I wonder what your thoughts are in that connection.
Mrs. Koosevelt. That again is something I am not prepared to
make any recommendations on.
I feel that I would really have to study that problem a great deal
more and know much more of the things that you know before I
could make any recommendation.
Mr. Sparkman. I wondered what your reaction to that might be.
You mentioned something about the hea^'y birth rate in the south-
ern States. As a matter of fact, in one of our hearings the South-
•east was aptly referred to as the "seed bed of the Nation." It was
shown that the rate of reproduction there was approximately 130
percent, whereas in some of the northern areas it was only 80
percent.
And I believe accompanying that was the statement that that is
the region, or one of the regions, of low economic opportunity. Yet
in every one of these aid })rograms it is required that the State
match the Federal money dollar for dollar.
The result is that those places needing the help most get the least,
I wonder what your thoughts are with reference to changing that
method of extending aid and putting it on the basis of need rather
than on a basis of ability to match.
MIGRATION IS NATIONAL PROBLEM
Mrs. Roosevelt. Well, we think too often in terms of sections. It
w^as all very weW to think in terms of sections of the country and
States in our early days, but today we really have to think of ourselves
as a Nation.
This is a problem that affects the Nation. Many of our problems
that may occur in this section of the country or in another section of
the country have become national problems. But eventually it will
affect the entire country, because these people don't remain in South
'Carolina or Georgia or the State of Washington or wherever it may be.
I mean, they move. I do think we are .going to have to begin to
dface the fact that we are a Nation and that the problems are the prob-
lems of the Nation and cannot be handled as problems of the various
States.
Now, how you shall do that or what you shall do I do not consider
I am capable of advising you.
Mr. Sparkman. I believe you agree that a part of the migrant
problem might be handled by taking such steps as we may to stop
needless migration. I am sure you agree with me that a great deal
(of the migration is necessary and desirable.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3751
Mrs. Roosevelt. Some of it is necessary and desirable and some of it
is the result of wastefulness on our part, which was natural in a
pioneering nation but which Ave must learn how to stop for the future
safety of oar country.
I think much of our land has been temporarily destroyed because we
didn't have knowledge enough not to destroy it. It Avill take us time
to get it back again.
But I think wherever it is possible we should do away with unneces-
sary migration, because this Nation was built as a Nation of homes, of
permanent homes, and I think that still remains the objective of most
of our people, and our safeguard.
QUESTION OF UNION INITIATION FEE
Mr. Sparkman. When they are once on the road, though, it becomes
our duty to reach out the helping hand, Mrs. Roosevelt. Shortly after
you came in, Mrs. Thomas was testifying about the effort of her
husband to obtain work.
She testified that he was an experienced and qualified electrician.
Upon application at Fort Meade he was offered a job which would have
paid him $1.65 an hour as an electrician. But in order to hold down
that job it was necessary for him to belong to the electricians' union.
Applying to the local here in Washington he found that he Avould be
required to pay $300 initiation fee, all in cash.
Mrs. Roosevelt. Was that the American Federation of Labor or
C. I. O. organization?
Mr. Sparkman. I don't know. She simply said — and, in fact, I have
nothing to verify the statement. She was quoting her husband. Mr.
Shishkin, of the American Federation of Labor, testified yesterday and
touched on that. He said that in their convention in New Orleans the
A. F. of L. discussed that rather at length, and that they had taken
steps to place some restrictions on their locals where these exorbitant
fees were being charged.
If that is true, I just wonder what is your thought about such a fee
as that being charged this migrant electrician who, of course, had
nothing Avith which to pay it?
Mrs. Roosevelt, Well, of course, you have to go back a little bit
further. I think you have to realize that probably the beginning
of that came when there were too many workmen to get work. I
suppose there are, in certain groups, rackets. And I suppose, per-
haps, that may be one of them. I don't know. I am not fully
conversant with just Avhat all these ramifications are.
But I do know that where there is^work and if it is not controlled,
by a racket, there are possibilities of adjustment. I don't believe,
unless it is in a locality where there is a racket going on, that where
there is work a man would be kept out for his initiation fee. I think
some adjustment would be made.
But, as I say, I don't knoAV this immediate situation and I don't
know the Avhole picture well enough to pass judgment.
Mr. Sparkman. Well, certainly, every encouragement should be
given these people to get jobs.
Mrs. Roosevelt. Of course.
3752 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Spakkman. Kather than obstacles being thrown in their way.
Mrs. Roosevelt. And I think a good union would do it and would
make the adjustment. And I think you will find that in a great
many unions they do business just exactly that way. What this
particular situation is, I don't know.
I think you should get the local union head up here and ask him
about that and have the man here and have it out. I think it would
be very interesting.
Mr. Spakkman. Thank you very much, Mrs. Roosevelt. That is
all, Mr. Chairman.
MAJOR CAUSES OF MIGRATION
Mr. OsMERS. Mrs. Roosevelt, we have discussed a great deal the
effect of migration. I wonder if you would care to give the com-
mittee your views on the major causes of migration ?
Mrs. Roosevelt. Well, they vary greatly. I mean, we have some
people whose land is gone. They have owned land always and are
people who want to own land again. Theirs is the land that was in
the Dust Bowl area or other stricken sections of the country and for
various reasons it was impossible for them to make a living.
Then we have, because of the depression, a great many people
in the cities who have not been able to get jobs, who are either looking
for jobs in other cities and industrial centers or who are going back
to their own farm area where, at least, they have friends and where
they know they can have something to eat and some shelter.
There are, of course, people whose jobs have always been migratory
and who are needed to do that work. Therefore, while it is badly
organized and while it has a great many draw-backs, migratory work
is a legitimate thing. To handle it requires only an understanding
of the problem and a real determination to solve it. But it will
have to be handled.
The other people who are migrating are part of the whole eco-
nomic picture of what has happened to us in this country. We do
not have to think of them as permanent, but we do hg,ve to think
of the way in which we- can remove the causes which made them
become migrants,
GROWER CAMPS
Mr. OsMERS. As I recall your testimony on your travels in Cali-
fornia, I don't recall your mentioning any of the grower camps in
California. Did you visit any of them while you were there?
Mrs. Roosevelt. No; I did not visit any grower camp. I mean,
any camp where they were actually housing people who were work-
ing at the time.
I saw one camp in passing where the conditions didn't look very
good so far as one could see just passing by. I went, of course,
jDrimarily to see the camps where the people who didn't have work
went every day.
Mr. OsMERS. They would commute back and forth to their jobs ?
Mrs. Roosevelt. Yes ; commute back and forth.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3753
Mr. OsMERS. We, of course, noticed a great difference in conditions
in the same type of camps. A county camp would not be the equal
of a Federal camp and one private enterprise would not compare
favorably with another.
Mrs. Roosevelt. That is right.
Mr. OsMERS. The sugar plantation in Palm Beach County, Fla.,
to" which you referred, is probably an outstanding example of grower
housing for migratory labor ?
Mrs. Roosevelt. That is a wonderful plant there.
Mr. OsMERS. We had their owners and managers before the com-
mittee when we were in Alabama and they do have a very fine opera-
tion there.
Would it be your opinion that the grower camp would answer the
migrant-labor problem as a long-time solution, under rigid super-
vision.
Mrs. RoosE^^ELT. Yes; where it is necessary to have that type of
labor.
You remember there they have certain people they keep all the
year around who have houses of their own. Then they have migrant
labor that they require at certain periods, primarily men. They
don't have families come down there particularly. They just have
the men come for short periods of time.
I think that is probably a very excellent solution. But, of course,
you have got to go a little deeper into it. Even if we got good hous-
ing and good camps for them if with it didn't go decent wages and
proper treatment you might find yourself faced with very bad con-
ditions just the same, in spite of the fact that the camp that was
provided was a healthier place to live in.
For instance, if they were forced to buy at a company store and
the company prices were very very high, they might go out of there
with no money at all.
Mr. OsMERS. The committee's experience has been, speaking at
least as one member of the committee, that where there was a social
consciousness on the part of the owner, all conditions went ahead
hand in hand, wages and hours, housing, education, and health.
I know that in New Jersey, where we have a very serious problem,
we have accomplished a great deal through the proper exercise of the
police power embodied in the State department of health.
PLAN FOR POST-EMERGENCY MIGRATION
The defense program is now becoming a great cause of migration
in the United States and people are^ shifting all over the country in
search of jobs, defense-program jobs.
Of course, in most instances they are getting jobs in the defense
industries.
Mrs. Roosevelt. Yes ; but you are faced in many places with terri-
ble housing shortages because they are shifting.
Mr. OsMERS. In some places 'housing is nonexistent^ because the
workers, in their eagerness, arrive sometimes 6 months in advance of
the completion of a plant.
3754
INTEK STATE MIGRATION
Would you care to express an opinion upon the effect that peace will
have upon the migration of citizens in the United States?
Mrs. Roosevelt. Well, I think it depends entirely on how we organ-
ize ourselves to meet the future. If we have in mind what we are going
to do with those defense plants and how we are going to use those peo-
ple who are then working there, we won't face the same things that
we faced before.
If we are not going to that ; if the owners of these plants and the
Government itself is not thinking now of what is going to happen
when peace comes, then we are going to have mass migration again.
We are going to be faced with just what we were faced with before —
the plants will close and people will have no w^ork, and they can't stay
where they have no work.
Mr. OsMERS. Of course, we must keep in mind always that the
branches of the Government concerned with the industrial part of the
defense program are working under terrific pressure and they are try-
ing to make a production schedule rather than to plan for the future.
But I was thinking of, let us say, a powder plant, built of necessity
back in the hills, that might employ 5,000 people. When peace comes —
and we know it is coming — and the world quiets down again, that
plant will close.
Mrs. RoosE\^LT. Well, I am not an economist. I don't know what
should be done. But I think that while we are, of course, interested
primarily in production, there must be people in this country who
should now be thinking of what we are going to use that powder plant
for. If we know that powder plant is going to be closed down, we
should be thinking of where we are going to put those people and what
w^e are going to do with them when peace does come. We have been all
through that once, and we should be thinking of it now wdien we are
not at war.
Some of our people can be doing that thinking. It would be differ-
ent and we would be excused if we were actually at war, because, once
you are at war, there is nothing to do but fight the war, and you for-
get what is going to happen when peace comes. You just long for the
day when peace does come.
iBut we are not at war. We have still got plenty of people in this
country who have brains and inventive ability and can look into the
future. And I think it is criminal if we are not using those people
today — telling them "this is your problem for the future ; we are not
going to be where we were in 1920; we are not going to have that thing
happen again to the people of our country."
I don't know what it will bring us. I don't know what it will mean
in facing new situations or in accustoming our peojjle to a realization
that we are having to face a different kind of world. But if we have
got to do it, we might much better know about it now and get ready
for it.
I think it is a question of getting all the people together. After all,
all the industries have peoj^le that they pay, and pay high, to plan for
the future, and they are probably still' doing it. Well, they might just
as well be planning for the things that we are really going to meet in
the future.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3755
Mr, OsMERS. And we certainly know we are going to have to
face that problem ?
Mrs. EoosEVELT. We certainly know we are going to meet it and
we had better do so this time with the idea of what is going to
happen to the people becanse that is the thing that is really going
to matter — what is going to happen to the people as a whole.
Mr. OsMERS. I know we can tear the plants down and destroy
the housing, but what are we going to do with the people?
Mrs. Roosevelt. Yes; you can tear the plants down but what is
going to happen to the people who are working in those plants?
Now^, we had better be thinking about that and planning for it.
Mr. OsMERS. It is my opinion — I don't know whether you share
it — that if we do not plan adequately at this time for the return of
peace, we may have a change in our basic form of government be-
cause of this tremendous number of people who will be thrown out
of employment and thrown into economic insecurity. We must keep
in mind that not only Americans will be in that condition, but ap-
proximately 25,000,000 other adults and workers throughout the
world will be in exactly the same position.
Mrs. Roosevelt. Well, I don't think my opinion on that would be
Avorthwhile because 1 don't know as much as you do. But I think
it is something we should be thinking about.
Mr. OsMERS. I would like to ask another question on the defense
program. I am just making a guess, Mrs. Roosevelt.
Don't you feel that we should make some economic provision in
connection with the pay roll of these defense workers now, so that
when their jobs do disappear they will not be immediately without
resources of any kind at all other than a modest amount of unem-
ployment compensation? I mean something more than the average
amount of unemployment compensation.
Mrs. Roosevelt. Now, again, I am talking without really having
any knowledge, so don't take me too seriously if it is all nonsense.
Aren't you taking it for granted in that case that all of them are
employed in places where we cannot find employment for them in
the future? Now, in that case you are putting them into what
might be called or classed as hazardous industries.
Mr. Osmers. If I may interrupt you, I was just thinking of those
workers that were engaged in manufacturing munitions of war,
primarily of a military nature.
Mrs. Roosevelt. Well, you might make some special provision for
a longer period of unemployment insurance or take a slightly greater
amount out of their wages than you are, or something of that sort.
But I should think that rather than give them a different status as
workers, which is hard to do because you have got to make careful
studies to give them a different status as workers, if you should differ-
entiate for their unemployment insurance.
I should think it would be better to put your research people to
work on what the future is going to hold for these people, do you see ?
I would put the money and the thought in planning for the future
and try and keep everybody in the country on the same basis as
workers, because I think the minute you begin to differentiate on how
0-756 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
much and how lon^ the unemployment insurance shall be paid, it is
going to be a difficult thing to' do and a difficult thing to make
people feel that it is fair and that it is right.
I think I would put everything we have into trying to look as
far as we can into the future.
Mr. OsMERS. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Curtis.
ATTENTION TO LONG-RANGE PROBLEMS
Mr. Curtis. Mrs. Eoosevelt, you have been very kind to appear here
today and I shall not detain you very long. 1 do have this question
in mind : Do you feel that in the report and recommendations of this
committee attention should be given to those long-range activities
that tend to stabilize populations, such as sound water conservation
projects in drought areas, and activities of that kind?
Mrs. Roosevelt. Very decidedly, because who is going to think
about the long-range problems unless you do ? I think that it is very
important that you take the long-range point of view and that you
think about the whole as far into the future as possible.
Mr. Curtis. In other words our task is not to arrive in some man-
ner merely at the administering of relief for those people who are
victims of circumstances at this time.
Mrs. Roosevelt. No; you have got to do fundamental thinking.
Mr. Curtis. That is all.
The Chairman. Mrs. Roosevelt, just a question or two. In re-
sponse to a question asked you by Congressman Sparkman about the
$300 fee to join the union before they can get a position, we had Mr.
Shishkin, of the American Federation of Labor, testify here the
other day and he went into that in some detail. He said in some
isolated instances there were abuses of that kind, but the federation
at New Orleans at their national convention condemned that. As
far as they know it is not going on now. I state that just for the
purpose of the record.
And I also want to say to you, Mrs. Roosevelt, that we are ex-
tremely grateful to you for coming. I want to say also, as chairman
of this committee, that as this problem unfolds, it becomes as many-
sided as the causes of migrations, and therefore there is no single
solution to it. But we do hope with the assistance of witnesses like
yourself to better the condition that exists at the present time.
We thank you very much for your appearance here today.
Mrs. Roosevelt. And thank you.
The Chairman. The next witness is Mr. Goodrich.
TESTIMONY OF CARTER GOODRICH, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS,
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, NEW YORK, N. Y.
The Chairman. Mr. Goodrich, will you please give your name and
address for the record, and the capacity in which you are appearing
before the committee today ?
Mr. Goodrich. Mr. Chairman, my name is Carter Goodrich. I am
professor of economics at Columbia University.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3757
For the last 4 years I have represented the United States Govern-
ment in its relation with the International Labor Office, first at Geneva
and now at Montreal. And last year I was elected chairman of the
governing body of the International Labor Office.
My connection with migration problems was between 1934 and 1936
when I acted as the director of the study of population redistribution
carried on under the auspices of the Wharton School of Finance and
Commerce of the University of Pennsylvania.
The results of that study' were published in a book entitled "Migra-
tion and Economic Opportunities."
The Chairman. Dr. Goodrich, you have presented the committee
with a written statement for the record. The reporter at this point
will incorporate that statement in the record, following which Mr.
Osmers will interrogate you.
(The statement referred to is as follows :)
STATEMENT OF CARTER GOODRICH, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS,
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY
Study of Population Redistribution
need of migration
Migration should be thought of as a useful, and indeed indispensable, method
of adaptation to changing conditions. Certainly it has served this purpose in the
American past. No one is likely to doubt that the United States is on the whole
richer and stronger because of the great westward movement that filled our
frontier and because of the great rural-urban migration that built our cities. We
may expect similar need for movements of people in the future. The locations of
economic opportunity are not likely to remain always in the same place. Even
if they were, there would be need of migration to correct present sectional in-
equalities and to maintain a running adjustment between regions of high and
low birth rates. This is particularly true because of the very striking degree —
brought out by Dr. Frank Lorimer in one of your early hearings — to which the
areas in which per capita resources are the most meager are the very ones in
which the population is growing most rapidly as the result of natural increase.
It is true that migration is a process which involves high human costs, which
should wherever possible be minimized. Sometimes migration is tragically mis-
directed— as in the ill-fated settlement of the Dust Bowl. Sometimes it seems
merely aimless and hopeless — as in certain cases to which your committee has had
to give attention. Yet after considering similar instances of misguided population
movement, the members of the Study of Population Redistribution came to the
considered conclusion that an even more serious failure of migration, over a long
period, had been its failure to take place on a sufficiently large scale "to give
adequate relief to the population pressure of our less favored areas." Without
very considerable migratory movements we cannot hope to redress existing regional
inequalities or use our human and material resources to the best advantage. The
mobility of the American people has been an economic asset. In a progressive
country, it cannot be taken as the aim of'soeial policy to make sure that every
man may live his whole life in the place in which he was born.
Our study did not attempt to indicate how many migrants could be absorbed
in a given year, or to say exactly where particular groups of migrants could
be absorbed. I am sure that the research carried on under your direction will
have pushed further on these points. But we did attempt to indicate the
general directions which migration would have to follow if it was to result iu
a better relationship between population and resources.
REGIONAL MIGRATION
The first point is regional. It seemed to us essential that there should con-
tinue to be a large movement of population from the Southeast. Every com-
parison of planes of living shows how meagerly the inhabitants of the southern
oy^S INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Appalachians and of the entire rural Southeast have shared in the economic
opportunities and advantages of the Nation's life. One basic reason for this
is the denseness of an agricultural population tilling insufficient and deteriorat-
ing land in the face of declining markets. I am sure that progress can be
made in improving the organization of rural life in the area, and that such
progress is being made under the T. V. A. and elsevphere. It seems probable,
also, that a continued increase of manufacturing in the region will supply
a certain amount of alternative employment. But the present population
pressure is so great, and the present rate of natural increase so rapid, that
the region appears doomed to still deeper poverty unless it can find substantial
relief by migration. The population increases in the southeastern States
recorded by the 1940 census indicate that an already alarming problem has
become even more serious.
OCCUPATIONAL SHIFTS
The second point is occupational. In a progressive economy, however else
the problem of the migrants may be solved, it will not be solved by a net
migration into agriculture. Ever since modern industrialism began, the pro-
portion of the total manpower devoted to agriculture has steadily diminished,
for one basic reason that will not lose its force unless or until the productive
■efficiency of our economic system as a whole begins to decline. As the total
national output increases, less and less of the national effort, and less and
less of the consumer's dollar, need to go into the raising of food, and more and
jnore can be devoted to other goods and services. The present farm popula-
lation of the United States— much of it already underemployed— stands ready
to produce far more food and fiber than is now demanded and would be quite
adequate, if agricultural technique continues to improve, to meet any increases
in demand that can easily be imagined.
The traditional movement of manpower has been from agriculture to manu-
facture. In recent years, however, certain branches of manufacturing have
themselves come into the same position as agriculture, with an inelastic demand
for their products and with extraordinary increases in output per worker.
But employment has continued to increase in the range of occupations devoted
to providing the great variety of services demanded by a civilization of
growing complexity. The limits of possible demand for certain manufactured
goods and for the nonmaterial services are far more flexible than the demand
for the products of the soil. It is in these fields that consumers will spend
the greater part of any income increases which they may receive. It is in
these fields that employment will grow, or, if necessary, must be made to
grow. A net increase of farm population must mean either the further lowering
of cash incomes already far too low, or else the condemnation of large groups
of people to the so-called "subsistence economy" without the means of pur-
chasing the amenities of an advanced civilization.
SUnURBANIZATION OF INDUSTRY
The third point relates to the type of communities. We considered it
necessary to sound a note of caution against the belief that industrial employ-
ment could easily be scattered throughout the rural areas of the country.
Analysis of the locations of manufacturing employment over the past 30 or 40
years indicates that there has been no net tendency in this direction. A certain
200 counties- — those which the 1029 Census of Manufactures listed as of greatest
industrial importance — contained nearly three-fourths of all wage jobs in
manufacturing in 1899 and contain nearly three-fourths of all the wage jobs
today. The share of the rest of the three-thousand-odd counties has not in-
creased. But meanwhile, within the industrially important areas, there has
been a marked and highly significant shift of factory location from the great
cities to their suburbs and to other areas of moderate industrial concentration.
Our analysis led us to the belief that these tendencies were likely to continue,
that there would probably be further diffusion and suburbanization of industry
in existing industrial regions, together with the rise of a limited number of
new industrial centers, but not a diffusion or scattering of industries over the
countryside. It seemed to us, moreover, that this process of suburbanization
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3759
would achieve most of the legitimate advantages claimed for decentralization
without incurring its most serious social and economic costs. "We argued^
therefore, that the chances of employment were likely to be better in a rela-
tively small number of urban and industrial districts — and particularly in their
expanding peripheries — than in remote towns or in rural areas.
This analysis was made before attention was seriously focused on the relation
between industrial location and vulnerability to military attack. What modifica-
tions this may require in the pattern of location I do not know; on this point,
I understand you have taken expert testimony. But only the most compelling
reasons could," in my judgment, justify the scattering of industrial plants one
by one in remote villages. To such a policy there are three cogent objections.
First, few plants in the past have managed to survive in such locations. Second,
if such a plant fails, its workers are left in a worse position than those in a
developed industrial area with other employment opportunities. Third, even if
such a plant succeeds, there is the danger of an unhealthy dependence of work-
erg — economic, social, and political— on a single employer. It should not be a
function of the United States Government to encourage the building of mere
"company towns."
SUGGESTIONS FOR GOVERNMENT ACTION
If this general viewpoint is accepted. Government policy toward migration
should be guided by the determination to preserve and encourage mobility but
to give it surer purpose and direction than in the past. At certain points Gov-
ernment action — by such devices as land zoning and governmental land pur-
chases— may serve to prevent the recurrence of mistaken types of settlement.
The United States Employment Service and its affiliated State services must
assume increasing responsibilities for facilitating useful shifts of population.
Improvements in education and technical training are needed to increase the
ability of prospective migrants to adapt themselves to new opportunities, and
there is a strong case for Federal aid to education in the regions of meager income
and high birth rate. Subsidies designed to keep people in areas which cannot
decently support them run counter to sound migration policy ; but subsidies de-
signed to fit the young people of such areas for more useful service elsewhere
would. I believe, be a well-placed national investment. In these and perhaps
other ways. Government action can facilitate an orderly mobility, but it must
be clear that migration policy alone cannot guarantee full employment nor the
indispensable increase in nonagricultural employment.
PLAN FOR REEMPLOYMENT AFTE21 CESSATION OF DEFENSE ACTIVITIES
In the face of stubborn, long-continued, large-scale industrial unemployment,
there has been a temptation to accept the return to a subsistence agriculture
as the only outlet for what api)eared to be large volumes of unwanted manpower.
A mean living on poor land is better than no job at all if these are the only
choices. But except as a purely temporary expedient, this could be justified only
on the defeatist assumption that we are incapable of organizing our economic
life to provide expanding opportunity. At the moment, with employment rising
and due to rise with the developing defense program, no one is likely to urge
the condemning of more of our fellow citizens to the subsistence alternative.
Indeed, if the demands on us grow as they well may, we should not dare to
do without their contribution to the national effort. At the end of the emergency,
however, the issue will arise again. It is none too early to begin planning for
the reemployment of those who will no longer be needed in the work of national
defense. To accept the doctrine that our full manpower cannot then be used
in the tasks of peace, in the raising of the American standard of living, would
be a confession of national defeat.
TESTIMONY OF CARTER GOODRICH— Resumed
Mr. OsMERS. Professor Goodrich, I notice from your statement
that you deal primarily with population problems. I notice, too,
^760 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
that contrary to many of the witnesses we have had, you do not
regard migration as such a bad thing for tlie country.
MIGRATION -RELIEVES POPULATION PRESSURE
Mr. Goodrich. That is so, Mr. Congressman. I think that migra-
tion must be thought of as a useful method of adjusting population
to resources.
I am speaking there not of seasonal migration, but I speak of
migration primarily, migration with the view to more pernianent
settlement. It seems to me that has been a most useful thing in the
American past. It settled our frontiers. It built our cities, and I
believe that it is essential to think of migration, in spite of its many
costs, as a useful method of social adjustment.
There is no reason to believe that economic opportunities will
remain in precisely the same places in the future as they have in
the past.
Moreover, even if they did so remain, the population movem.ent
would be needed to correct the shocking inequalities between one
region and another where migration would be needed to make up
for the differences in the birth rate between one section and another.
And that argument I think is particularly strong for the reasons
that Congressman Sparkman brought out a short time ago, that the
very regions where the population pressure is the greatest and where
people are having the hardest time under the most meager resources,
are the very regions in which the population is growing most rapidly
hj natural increase.
Mr. OsMERS. Would you care to give the committee some estimate
of the number of people that should come out of the southeastern
States in order to make that area a little bit more self-supporting
than it is or a little better off economically ?
Mr. Goodrich. Well, the maximum figures to bring it toward a
state of equality, approaching equality with the standards of living
in the other parts of the country, would be so big I hardly dare give
them, but certainly it should run into several hundred thousands from
the southern Appalachian region and the figure would run into mil-
lions for the eastern part of the Cotton Belt.
Mr. OsMERs. Would you say. Professor, that the need for migra-
tion from that area would continue because of the excessive birth
rate as compared to the rest of the United States ?
Mr. Goodrich. Yes.
CONTINUE FARM TO CITT MIGRATION
Mr. OsMERS. Now, it is also your opinion that because of the con-
•dition in agriculture there should be a continuance of the farm to
•city migration?
Mr. Goodrich. I think that will have to be so as a long-run trend.
'Otherwise I think it means that the agricultural populations will be
pi-essed still further below the industrial population. Many of our
iellow citizens will be condemned to live on the very meager level
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3761
of subsistence agriculture — what one of your earlier witnesses called
"the people barely living on half rations extracted from a small
parcel of poor land."
I think that is the danger.
Mr. OsMERS. I don't recall the exact wording of the statement, but
when I read it this morning you said something in there to the eifect
that a man would be better off unemployed in a city than he would
be on a subsistence farm. Is that what you said?
Mr. Goodrich. No. If those are the alternatives — if those are the
only alternatives — then the meager living on poor land is better than
that. But I don't think we have to take that as the national standard.
Mr. OsMERS. I hope not. What is your opinion of industrial
decentralization ?
CAUTION AGAINST INDUSTRIAL DECENTRALIZATION
Mr. Goodrich. I feel that there must be a great deal of caution used
regarding any attempts to scatter industry widely into the remote
rural regions.
I believe that a considerable degree of decentralization toward
suburban areas, a good deal of movement of industry from the very
large cities to areas of somewhat moderate industrial concentration,
is likely to continue as it has been, and likely to be, on the whole,
desirable and healthy.
I doubt if the scattering of industry widely over the countryside is
possible and I doubt if it is desirable if it could be done. My reason
for doubting the possibilities is the experience and the analysis of
the figures of the last 40 years or so. They show that within that
time a certain 200 counties, which are those which the Census of
Manufactures in 1929 counted as the important industrial areas and
important industrial counties, had almost three-quarters of all the
wage jobs in manufacturing in the country in 1899, and they have
almost precisely the same percentage of wage jobs in the United States
at this time.
There has been a significant movement within that from the cities
to the suburbs and I think that movement may well continue.
I think that some new industrial centers may well arise as some new
centers have arisen over the last 30 or 40 years, but I doubt if it is
practical to scatter industry bit by bit all up and down the length and
breadth of the other 3,000 counties.
Mr. OsMERS. I want to come back to that in a minute or two. But
do you expect that we will have full employment if the defense pro-
gram continues for another year and a half or 2 years ?
Mr. Goodrich. I think we shall come much closer to full employ-
ment than we have been for a long time. That is one reason Avhy I
think it is easier to be more emphatic in arguing that migration is
a useful process now than it was 4 years ago, before this arose.
I think that 4 years ago there was much more -temptation to say
we can't make use of the people and you had better go back even to
poor land, if that is the only alternative, and get along somehow.
Now, I think, we don't have to say that to people and I don't think
we dare say it in view of the national need that will come.
3yQ2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
IMPORTANT TO PLAN FOR POST-DEFENSE ECONOMY
Mr. OsMERS. Now, after this defense program, do you anticipate
a great immediate increase in migration and unemployment?
Mr. Goodrich. I anticipate very great danger for just the reasons
you suggest, unless very careful planning is done about it,
Mr. OsMERS. Now, I want to go back to what we were talking about
before — the decentralization of plants.
Don't you feel that if we have these plants spread all over the
country and the entire economy of certain areas based upon defense
plants, we are likely to have a more serious dislocation than if these
plants are operating in normal industrial areas that also have peace-
time industries there?
Mr. Goodrich. I think there is a great danger if the defense plants
are not put, as far as practicable, in regions for which there is hope
of continuance in peacetime.
Now, there may be needs for changes for tactical reasons about
which I know nothing, but 1 think there is great danger if the de-
fense plants are not put in regions that look like regions of normal
peacetime growth.
Mr. OsMERS. You recommend that we should now plan for the
arrival of the dove of peace. I wonder what plans you have in
mind that could be made.
Mr. Goodrich. Well, there are two things. First, I agree with
what I understand to have been the recommendation of Dr. Lubin
yesterday, that a dismissal wage, a kind of amortization for the
workers in specifically defense industries, would be a useful thing.
I agree with Mrs. Roosevelt that that is the smaller part of the
program. I think it is extremely important that
Mr. OsMERS. That, after all, would be only a temporary ameliora-
tion of the situation ?
Mr. Goodrich. Exactly. It might be useful, but it is only a matter
of tiding the people over.
Mr. OsMERs. Six months instead of two months?
Mr. Goodrich. Yes; but it doesn't solve the question of where
they are to go afterwards. I am sure the solution is not one of
sending them back to starve on the bad lands. So I think.it is ex-
tremely important that there should be planning under way regard-
ing the reemployment possibilities of those people at that time.
Mr. OsMERS. As I remember Mr. Lubin's testimony yesterday, he
also said tliat Ave should not abandon all of our peacetime industries
in the great rush to get aboard the defense band wagon, so that
we would have at least a skeleton of ]:)eacetime industry when the
defense program is over. Do you share that view?
Mr. Goodrich. Yes; I think that is true and I think we also need
to have plans possibly in the housing field and in other public-works
fields to be ready for that time.
I think that is the long planning job. I quite agree that people
should get at it soon.
Mr. OsMERS. What sort of a body would you recommend or what
present existing agency would you recommend to assume the re-
sponsibilities of that planning job?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3763
Mr. Goodrich. Well, that is an administrative question which I
don't feel particularly competent to answer.
Certainly the Department of Labor should be in it. Certainly the
Defense Commission should be in it. 1 don't know about this, but
I feel they should, and I feel the Social Security Administration
should be in it. I don't know that I am of any particular use
in suggesting the form that such a body might take.
Mr. OsMEiJS. Well, would you say that we could use a body such
as the National Resources Planning Board?
Mr. Goodrich. Very admirably, I should think. I have one other
suggestion to add there, that on certain of the international aspects
of the problem you would do well to call on the International Labor
Office for a study of the problem as it is hitting other countries.
That we should have a right to do as members.
Mr. OsMERS. I have tried from various witnesses, without a great
deal of success, to get their opinions on tlie effect of world-wide un-
employment upon our own economy when peace comes.
Now, I am presuming that our economy will not be as badly dis-
jointed as others throughout the world, but I can see our foreign
markets slipping away from us when these millions put down their
arms and cease working in arms plants and start producing peacetime
merchandise.
Let us take the Latin-American market, for instance, which we
speak of a great deal today. I think the European nations, both the
victor and the vanquished, will lower their standards of living in order
to get those markets and the materials they can get in exchange for
their goods.
Mr. Goodrich. I think that is a very serious danger and I think it
indicates we shall need to take some part in the economic reconstruc-
tion of the world, partly to prevent just that extreme lowering of
standards with its consequences.
Mr. OsMEKS. I am not as much impressed as many seem to be with
the present trade we are doing with Latin America because about
three-quarters of the civilized world, aside from ourselves, is engaged
in war. But I would like to know where that Latin-American trade
is going to go after the war is over. Is it your opinion that our posi-
tion there will be seriously endangered in an economic way regardless
of the outcome of the war?
Mr. Goodrich. I think there is danger there; but I am in no sense
an expert on South American relations.
Mr. OsMERS. I can visualize that situation. In fact we saw it when
some of these foreign nations were pre])aring for war. We had dem-
onstrations of the barter system and other means that they used to get
business.
That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Parsons.
LIMIT and regulate ECONOMY IN INFLATED PERIOD
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Chairman and Professor Goodrich, our hindsiglit.
of course, is always much better than our foresight. However, have
260370— 41— pt. 9-
3764
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
you thought of what might have been the difference in onr economy if,
"diirino; the World War, or during the prosperous days of the twenties
when we had a fairly even keel of employment and production, we had
had social security and many of the things we have acquired in the last
5 or 6 years. If they had been in effect during the other war or during
the prosperous days of the tw^enties, what would have been the differ-
ence in the condition of the country during the years of depression ?
Wliat would have been the difference in the relief and economic
problem if we had had such measures as we have adopted in the last
5 years ?
Mr. Goodrich. Well, even on hindsight I should not think I could
answer that completely, but I think the situation would have been
easier in very important respects. The relief needs would not have
come so suddenly if there had been unemployment insurance to cushion
it ; not so many people would have had to go to the areas which per-
haps were their only possible hide-outs during the depression.
So whether the more even flow of income resulting from unemplov-
ment-insurance payments would have cushioned the shock of the de-
pression or lessened the shock of the depression very materially, I am
not so sure.
It certainly would have helped somewhat, and would have made
it possible to come to the relief program in a more orderly way
and with much less human suffering.
Mr. OsMERS. I want to make another predication. We are plan-
ning on this defense program and we are hoping that we will never
be involved in this w^ar, and I cannot see any reason right now whv
we should be. But, if we should become involved, I think with
our experience in the other war and in the last 10 years, that Gov-
ernment will never permit the sk^^rocketing of prices and greatly
inflated values that was permitted in the other war.
Now, if that had been prohibited before perhaps we never would
have had the plains plowed up in the Dust Bowl for the production
of wheat. We would have saved the soil that has blown away in
the past several years. We would also have saved the great in-
vestment sky-rocketing that finally culminated in our downfall. And
that is what we are planning to do. That is the reason we are
holding these prices down now.
If it were not for the proper regulations that we have, prices
would probably be twice as high as they are at the present time.
Do you think that is a good economic thing to do — to limit or
regulate our economy in inflated times like, this so that there will
not be such a repercussion after that ?
Mr. Goodrich. Yes, sir; very decidedly. And I think it is true
that measures of that sort in the other war might have prevented
much of the mishandling of an area like the Great Plains.
I think also the Government is doing some things directly which
are useful in preventing a misguided settlement such as the settle-
ment of the Dust Bowl by the Government repurchase of lands
which are unfit for agriculture, and by measures such as the county
zoning that started in Wisconsin and spread elsewhere. I think there
are some useful things that the Government can do directly to stop
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3765
unfortunate migration and misguided migration like that in the
Dust Bowl. But I quite agree it is important, and highly important,
to prevent the runaway prices which had the consequences that you
have just brought out.
Mr. Parsons. The question has arisen many times before this
committee and with committee members of a long-range planning
program. We have been attacking that problem for several years
now. If we had the foresight 20 or 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago,
to have started a long-range planning program, we could have cush-
ioned the depression. Perhaps it never would have come, because
when we started the reduction in Federal taxes, making it retro-
active year after year during the twenties, that money came back
to the large bondholders who used it principally for the stock-
market manipulation which greatly inflated those values, sometimes
400 and 500 percent, and on an average of over 200 percent, when
the real values were not there. Those inflated values fell and cul-
minated in a great crash which wiped everybody's savings out.
Now, we want to prevent that in the future, and we think we are
on the right track with a long-range planning program. But many
of those who are critical of what we are doing now are those who
had the responsibility of Government planning then and failed to
fict, isn't that right?
Mr. Go >DRicH. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. That is all, Mr. Cliairman.
FEDERAL AID FOR COSTS OF EDUCATION
Mr. Sparkman. Dr. Goodrich, I have read your statement with
much interest. There is one thing that naturally caught my eye.
If I may, I will read the portion that I refer to :
Improvements in education and technical training are needed to increase
the ability of prospective migrants to adapt themselves to new opportunities,
and there is a strong case fcr Federal aid to education in the regions of
meager income and high birth rate. Subsidies designed to keep people in
areas which cannot decently support them run counter to sound migration
policy ; but subsidies designed to fit the young people of such areas for more
useful service elsewhere would, I believe, be a well-placed national investment.
Now, as a matter of fact, in the areas of high birth rate, there
is a surplus of population that must keep moving out. Therefore
the burden is placed upon those particular States and regions to edu-
€ate those people to fit them for the economic place they might find
in another region. If those States are so heavily burdened to edu-
cate those children that are going to become producers for other
areas, do you think it is reasonable to require those same areas to
match dollar for dollar Federal funds that are given for various
subsidies such as you mentioned?
Mr. Goodrich. Well, I think that the Federal Government should
take responsibility for its part of the cost of education in these
areas. I am not so sure about other subsidies because I am doubt-
ful about subsidies which, as I said there, are designed to hold people
in an area. But I am very strongly in favor of subsidies in the field
of education. I think that it is right that the Nation as a whole
3766 INTERSTATE MIGRATIOM
should bear the cost or part of the cost of the education of these
people, many of whom are certainly not going to live in the very
heavily burdened States which are bringing them up and trying
their best to educate them.
I think there again, from the point of view of the State to which
they are going to go, it is a disadvantage to the States which receive
these people to receive ill-trained people. So I think there is a
case even aside from our national feeling in the matter — I think
there is a strong case from the practical point of view in the States
that are likely to receive migrants in having prospective migrants
better trained.
I feel very strongly that that is a field in which Federal assistance
to the areas you speak of is entirely justified.
Mr. Sparkman. As someone suggested in the hearing in New York,
if he bought mules from one of our States, he paid the owner of those
mules for bringing them up, but when our boys and girls came up
there he paid nothing for the education of those boys and girls.
Mr. Goodrich. That puts the point better than I did, but it is
my point.
Mr. Sparkman. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Doctor, I understand you want to get away at
12 : 20 and I will keep faith with you. But I want to say to you
that while traveling around the country and in conference with
newspaper representatives, about the first question they ask is:
"Well, Congressman, what is the solution for all this anyway?"
The point I want to bring out, and I think you will agree with
me, is that this migration of destitute citizens from one State to
another involves, and probably includes, every economic dislocation
we have in the country, isn't that so ?
Mr. Goodrich. Absolutely.
The Chairman. Now, the causes of migration are worn-out soil,
mechanization, unemployment. There is no single solution for any
of those things. But what I would like to bring out is that we
seemingly or surely could do better than we are doing now or have
done in the past, don't you think?
increase facilities for dissemination or information
Mr. Goodrich. I think we can do much better. One simple thing
we can do, which I think was brought out in the remarks this morn-
ing, is to increase the amount of information which is put at the
disposal of possible migrants.
I think that calls for a much greater responsibility being placed
upon the United States Employment Service and its State affiliations
than has heretofore been the case.
It should be made possible for those agencies to do very much more
than they have been able to do in the past. They have done as well
as they can. But if it could be arranged for it to do more in the
future by spreading correct information about opportunities for mi-
grants that might serve to cut off misguided, merely aimless migra-
tion. It would also serve to direct migration to the places where the
migrants are likely to be needed.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3767
The Charman. In other words, we should be able to obtam a better
informed and more reasonably controlled migration than we have
now.
Mr. GooDKiCH. I agree completely.
The Chairman. We will have your prepared statement inserted
in full in the record. Mr. Reporter, you will insert Dr. Goodrich's
statement at this point in the record.
We just want to thank you. Dr. Goodrich, very sincerely for ap-
pearing here today. Your statement is a very valuable contribution
to us.
Mr. Goodrich. Thank you, Mr. Congressman. It has been a great
privilege to appear before the committee.
The Chairman. The hearing will rtcess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12 :15 p. m. the hearing recessed until 2 p. m. of
the same day.)
after recess
The Chairman. The committee will please come to order.
Dr. Schmidt will be the first witness.
TESTIMONY OF GAEL T. SCHMIDT, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS OF
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY
The Chairman. Dr. Schmidt, will you give your full name and
address to the reporter ?
Mr. Schmidt. Carl T. Schmidt, 1900 H Street, Washington, D. C.
The Chairman. And in what capacity do you appear here, Doctor —
that is, you are a professor of economics, are you not ?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir; I am lecturing in economics at Columbia
University, but at the present time am on leave.
The Chairman. You have filed a written statement, and that, will
appear in the record at this point.
(The written statement is as follows :)
STATEMENT OF CARL T. SCHMIDT, LECTURER IN ECONOMICS OF
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY
Changes in American Agkicultuke and Some of the Results
For 50 years American agricultiu'e has been drifting away from tlie ideal of the
family farm. In broad perspective, we can see that our farmers have been drawn
into the vortex of industrialism. They too share the insecurities brought to our
society by the machine.
It was the cotton, the wheat, and the corn, produced at low cost on the virtually
free and highly fertile lands of America that in the nineteenth century provided
the people of western Europe with cheap food and clothing and helped them to
turn from farming to manufacturing. Moreover, our agricultural exports enabled
us to import much of the capital on which our own urban industrialism was built.
And when this job was done, American farmers were left stranded in an uncertain
world. Their preeminence in foreign markets has vanished, and the application
of machines to agriculture has made needless the work of many farmers in supply-
ing our own requirements. At the same time, industrialism has been unable to use
all its own great capacities. This has meant urban poverty and unemployment
which in turn have brought poverty and disguised iinemployment to the farms.
As we near the middle of the twentieth century, we find that millions of farm
workers have no more material security than the poorest of city people. Our farm
problems are basically the problems of an industrial society that has not yet
learned to use its resources wisely and humanely.
3768 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
THE AGRICtTLTUEAL. DILEMMA
Why have so many of our farm people been sinking into an economic and social
morass? Why has agriculture, as a way of life and as a business, been less and
less inviting during the last 20 years? Why, despite all the costly farm-relief
efforts, does the long-run prospect for great numbers of our staple-crop farmers
still seem so unpromising? No complete answer can be given in brief compass,
but it is possible to point to a number of basic forces that have been making for a
decline of American agriculture. The great depression after 1929 certainly does
not offer us the examination — it merely increased the pressure of forces already at
work long before 1929. Indeed, they continue to underlie the course of agricul-
ture even now, after a decade of far-flung efforts by our Federal Government to
solve the farmer's problems.
CAUSES OF AGRICULTURAL DECLINE
Put most simply, American staple agriculture has been declining because our
farm plant was built up to supply not only our domestic needs but also great
foreign markets. The foreign demand has shrunk seriously since the World War,
and domestic markets have stagnated. Hence lower prices for the goods that our
farmers have gone on offering in such abundance. And these prices have not
given farmers enough income to meet production costs and to buy the thinks they
need and want. (Possibly if they were ready to let their living standards sink we
would hear less about agricultural depression.) Well, couldn't they produce less?
Perhaps, but that would leave many farmers unemployed or dependent on public
aid. And the more some farmers adjust themselves to the changed situation —
reducing costs by means of business methods and machine production, and also
just by pulling in their belts, the harder is the going for other farmers. Left to
themselves, the natural forces would gradually squeeze labor and land out of
agricultural enterprise. Perhaps this would not be too bad if men could be used
at good wages in urban industry. But there they would also be unemployed today.
Hence the dilemma is idtiniatcly one of our whole economy, not merely of agri-
culture. We might just as well let the natural forces of floods drown the unlucky
people who happen to be in the way of the waters as to let the natural forces of
economics drive our rural people into po^'erty and hopelessness.
More specifically, we may summarize the difficulties of our commercial, staple-
crop agriculture as follows :
LOWER PRICE MARKET FOR FARM PRODUCTS
For one thing, most farm enterprise is a small-scale, highly competitive pursuit.
But it is caught in a web of big business. Our billion acres of agricultural
land are split up among nearly 7,000,000 separate farms. And most of these farms
are relatively small, single-family holdings. Even the great cotton plantation or
wheat ranch is not big by comparison with the typical steel mill or automobile
factory. Except in a few areas, genuinely large-scale and corporate farming
in the United States is still unimportant. Nor has it yet proved itself decisively
more efficient than small-scale farming. The point is that because of the fiercely
competitive nature of his own business, the ordinary farmer has no control over
the prices of his commodities. He produces as much as he can, and sells for what-
ever he gets.
The situation is very different for most of those who buy from or sell to the
farmer. In their case, efficiency demands large-scale operation, and this in turn
means fewer firms in each market and therefore increased managerial control over
prices. Thus when the farmer sells his wheat, or tobacco, or milk, or when he
ships his goods by rail, he is confronted by big business. Again, he runs into big
business when he buys fertilizer, or a tractor, or a refrigerator, or when he bor-
rows money. In 1934, for example, 3 big tobacco manufacturers bought 46 percent
of the total tobacco crop in this country, 13 flour millers purchased 65 percent of
tlie commercial wheat crop, 3 meat packers bought 41 percent of the marketed
cattle and 25 percent of the hogs, 2 milk distributors bought 13 iiercent of the
commercial milk. Thus, quite apart from the possibility of deliberate monopo-
listic price rigging by business, the farmer is likely to be in a weak bargaining
position both as seller and buyer. Here is one reason why th'^e prices he re-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3769
ceives are so much less certain than the prices he pays. It helps to explain the
low purchasing power of the farmer. And it is also a reason why, when his
prices slip downward, the individual farmer finds that he must go right on pro-
ducing as much as ever, perhaps even more. Without machinery to eliminate cut-
throat competition and to adjust producticm to changing market conditions, the
American farmer is penalized by being an old-style oiierator in a streamlined
world of big busines.s.
EBB OF FOREaON MARKET
Secondly, since the end of the World War the farmer has seen his foreign
market ebb away. Following the repeal of the English corn laws in 1846 and
the advent of cheap transportation, exports of agricultural products from the
United States rose steadily. The rapid growth of industrial population abroad
greatly enlarged the market for low-priced American foodstuli"s and cotton. For
half a century these increased European requirements were largely supplied by
the expanding tillage of the vast Mississippi Basin. But with the disappearance
of cheap fertile lands in the United States, the American farmer began to lose his
superiority in the world market. Wheat and livestock producers in other areas
with great reserves of fertile land — such as Canada, Argentina, Australia — were
able, because of lower costs, to undersell the American products. Even cotton,
long a virtual American monopoly and our most important agricultural export,
has not escaped the competition of other lands. Our tobacco, fruits, and other
farm commodities are being squeezed out of world markets by the stiff competition
of products that have the advantage of lower production costs or preferential
treatment by various governments. In broad persijective, this tendency is to be
seen as a concomitant of America's industrialization, its decreased dependence
on foreign capital and manufactured goods, its growing ability to export industrial
goods.
DECI.INE IN POPUKATION RATE
Thirdly, changes in domestic demand — gradual, but nevertheless potent — have
tended to constrict profitable markets for many farmers. In former times they
could look to our rapidly growing population to take their surpluses. Now the
persistent decline in the rate of population growth eliminates one important
buttress of our agriculture. Indeed, if, as appears likely, the birth rate continues
to fall and immigration remains small, the population will cease growing before
many years. Eventually there may even be fewer mouths to feed and backs to
clothe. Dietary changes, too — especially shifts from beef and cereals to milk,
sugar, fruits, and vegetables — have already impaired the markets for commodities
important to great numbers of farmers. Moreover, producers of hay and grain
have been hard hit during the last quarter of a century by the widespread substi-
tution of tractors and automobiles for horses and mules.
MECHANIZATION
Fourthly, the increasing mechanization of agriculture has intensified the
problems of farm operators and their hired workers. During the course of the
past hundred years, millions of new farms — supported by the liberal land, immi-
gration, and transportation policies of a solicitious Government — came into exist-
ence. But this development was more than an increase in the number of farmers
and of acres cultivated. For it was accompanied, and indeed to a large degree
made possible, by a remarkable rise in th^ efficiency of agricultural enterprise —
resulting from the application of science to the arts of the husbandman. Here,
again, the Government has been a prime agent, for it constantly increased the
scope of its agricultural research and its efforts to provide farmers with up-to-the-
minute information. The work of the Federal Government has been supple-
mented by the State departments of agriculture and farm societies and journals.
Always in the foreground has been the idea of "bigger and better" farm produc-
tion. Urged on by these agencies and by the growing cost of farm labor, the desire
to lessen the burden of hard work, the hope of profit, the American farmer has
turned increasingly to mechanization, to scientific breeding and feeding, to more
business-like methods of management. By 1929 the average farmer and farm
laborer produced 150 percent more than he did in 1870, and 37 percent more than
3770
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
in 191)9. The agricultural output in 1929 was 27 percent bigger than in 1909, yet
it was produced by 7.5 percent fewer persons. Far fewer hired laborers are now
needed in the western wheat regions than 20 or 30 years ago, and the corn
harvester lias x-educed the number required in the Corn Belt. Plowing, planting,
fertilizing, cultivating — all are being mechanized. And the all-purpose tractor is
eliminating countless back-breaking chores. In the jiast, labor released from agri-
culture by the machine could find employment in urban industry. Today that
outlet is closed, and who knows when it will again be open The tractor and other
machines will one day greatly curtail the need for workers in the cotton fields.
What then will become of thousands on thousands of southern farm folk?
From the standpoint of potential farm production, the results of these devel-
opments are even more remarkable. In 1929, half our farmers produced 89 per-
cent of the total commercial output of American agriculture. No doubt these
farmers could easily produce the remaining 11 percent if prices offered them
only a little encouragement. That is, the less productive half of our farmers
are not needed to feed and clothe the nonfarm people — at least, on present
levels of consumption. Instead of population pressing on the means of sub-
sistence, as Thomas Malthus prophesied, agriculture is now pressing on popula-
tion. Mechanization has changed the whole technical basis of farming, making
millions of small farms obsolete and incapable of competing on any "reasonable"
basis with more efficient farms. Yet so long as the less productive farmer's
cash income barely covers his out-of-pocket expenses, he finds it better to go
on producing than to stop altogether. By pulling in his belt, lowering the living
standards of his family, and neglecting the long-run needs of his farm he can
continue to compete — on a cutthroat basis — with technically superior farms.
In terms of human needs, however, it is not at all evident that our agricul-
tural productive plant is excessive. For demand has been seriously restricted
by the low purchasing power of much of our population. In 19;)5, some 12 000 roo
families — 42 percent of all families in the country — received less than $1,000
income. Tet they bought only 26 percent of all the food sold in that year.
Four million of these low-income families spent only about a dollar a week per
person for food, or about 5 cents for each meal. Certainly, increasing tliese
people's incomes would do much to ease the farmer's troubles. According to
Milo Perkins, "If all families getting less than $100 per month had been able
overnight to increase their incomes to that level * * * this would have
meant an increase in expenditures for food of approximately 1.9 billion dol-
lars. The expenditures of these people would have been increased by 51 per-
cent. The national food bill, not counting purchases by single individuals,
would have been increased 14 percent, and the health of the low-income people
would have been very much improved. Farmers would have received nearly
$1,000,000,000 more in income. The extra demand certainly would have im-
proved farm prices and farm income by a large additional amount." ^ How to
raise our national income and to distribute more of it to our less fortunate
people — this is the great internal economic problem of our times. The advance
of agricultural technology would be much more rapid if urban employment and
purchasing power were increased. For then many people now on farms would
move to towns and cities, and commercial outlets for agricultural products
would expand. On the other hand, if employment opportunities in industry
remain meager, the abundance and low costs of farm labor are likely to retard
the mechanization of agriculture. Continued long enough, such a situation
would make for more self-sufficient farming. We must note, too, that the dif-
ficulty of most farmers in acquiring more land, the absence of alternative in-
come opportunities for those farm owners who find the going hard and who
wish to sell, the uncertain prospects for new capital in many agricultural
fields, are forces that hold back what might otherwise be a very rapid drift
to new forms of agriculture.
LARGE-SCAIE FARMING MUST INCKE.\SE
It is probable, however, that efficient farms, whether operated by individual
families or by hired managers and workers, must become bigger than they
Iiave been in the past — bigger in acreage and numbers of livestock, or in yield
' Speech at Des Moines, February 24, 1940.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3771
per acre and per mau, or both. The new techuology seems to make this inevi-
table. Very large-scale methods and huge areas under single management may
become essential for extensive crop production, especially vphen much of the
work can be reduced to a routine, whereas family -operated farms of relatively
small acreage may be most effective for intensive, less standardized agriculture.
In either case, however, the amount of capital needed per worker must be
greater than formerly.
The constant pressure of agricultural supplies on demand Is, then, a further
basic reason for the economic weakness of our farmers. Technological achieve-
ments have made available a potential source of additional quantities of agri-
cultural products that, in the absence of control, must flood the markets when-
ever prices remain for any length of time on even a modestly attractive level.
Yet, in the opinion of many authorities, farm mechanization is as yet only
in its infancy. Unless tremendous outlets for farm commodities can be discov-
ered, then millions of our farmers must leave the land or be subsidized by the
Government or be doomed to chronic poverty. Even those who believe that
we have far too many farmers must hesitate to advocate a wholesale shift of
rural people to towns and cities, for that would merely result in still more
outright unemployment. Perhaps the possibilities of cityward migi-ation will
improve, but how soon and how rapidly no one knows.
KUIlAL POVERTY DANGEI! TO NATION
Finally, it is obvious that the extremes of rural distress are not to be ex-
plained solely by market conditions, by the movement of farm prices and costs.
After all, many of the poorest farm people produce very little for market. Behind
their troubles lie broader social and physical factors. Almost a million farm
families live on farms that are so small, or on lands so poor, that they cannot
make a satisfactory living. In the Cotton Belt poverty is bred by the tenant
and cropper systems, high birth rates, class cleavages, and racial prejudices. In.
the Appalachian area, about 40 percent of the farms are less than 50 acres in
size, and cultivation is generally restricted by the rough and sterile land. Here,,
also, illiteracy and high birth rates make for poor living. But such impoverished
fai-mers are by no means contined to the deep South and the southern highlands.
There are also wretchedly poor farm people in the fertile Midwest, the dry wheat
regions, the Southwest, the Lake States, Florida, and the Pacific Northwest. And
some of the most abject people in the world live in the shadows of California's
magnificent mountains and forests.
Clearly, rural poverty is a danger not only to farm people but also to everyone
in the Nation. We can appreciate what is at stake when we recall that the
birth rate is highest in the very areas where rural living conditions are worst.
According to O. E. Baker, 1,000 farm people will have 3 to 7 times as many-
descendants a century hence as 1,000 people living in our large cities. Most
Americans a hundi'ed years from now will be the offspring of the rural people
of today. Here, surely, is the highest justification for a national policy designed
to wipe out rural slums and raise the living levels of our farm families. Unles&
the conditions that produce rural insecurity are attacked and overcome, not
only will much of our present generation be condemned to lives of destitution;
but also a large proportion of the Americans of the future will be reared against
a background of material and spiritual poverty. The farm must be not only a
place where cotton and wheat and corn are grown. It must also he a producer of
men, of good citizens.
It is the fashion nowadays to talk about menaces to democracy. Yet it is no
idle rhetoric to say that the problems of farmers are of vital importance in the
building of our citizenship and of our democratic institutions. For democracy
means more than political formulas. It can live only if it is brought down to the
earth of common men, giving them security and a vital part in the affairs of
political and industrial government. The men with little or no hope of jobs
in our cities, and the depressed and virtually unemployed men of our country-
side— all are a menace to democracy. Our people — and we are speaking now of
those who have caught some glimpses of the American dream, not merely of those
who have been congenitally impoverished— will not always submit to the condi-
tions from which they have been suffering. If they come to realize that the
3772 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
dream of a democracy which promises security and good living is but an idle
phantasy, then they may well turn to other gospels — gospels that will destroy
democratic ways of life even though they may not bring well-being.
CURP.ENT FARM POLICY
When Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Wallace entered office in 1933, American agricul-
ture was prostrate. The first Agricultural Adjustment Adniinistration program
was intended to inject new life into it. The Agricultural Adjustment Admin-
istration thesis was that farm prices and incomes could be pushed up only if
supplies were curtailed so as to meet a greatly reduced demand at home and
abroad. Cotton, wheat, corn-hogs, and tobacco received most of the administra-
tion's attention. Coercive penalty taxes forced the cotton and tobacco producers
to comply with programs for the curtailment of production. Drought made
such steps unnecessary for wheat and corn. Cooperating farmers were rewarded
with benefit payments. These were financed out of processing taxes, the burden
of which was mainly borne by consumers. Such measures, together with a
severe drought, which drastically cut wheat and corn production in 1934, and
industrial recovery pushed farmers' prices and incomes upward.
Early in 1936 the Supreme Court outlawed the Agricultural Adjustment Admin-
istration crop-reduction program. Congress adopted a soil-conservation act, which
aimed at I'educing commercial crop acreage in a roundabout way. That is, farm-
ers were paid to fight erosion by shifting land from the staple crops to soil-
building crops, and also by adopting other conservation practices. Incidentally,
the soil-conservation efl:orts of the New Deal have done much to save our land
from further damage. Another drought in 1936 and continued industrial revival
kept prices and many farm incomes relatively high. But in 1937 unusually good
weather and more efficient farm techniques resulted in bumper crops. The
cotton harvest of 19,000,000 bales was a record breaker. This and a recession
in industry sent prices tumbling. Farmers demanded new help from the Gov-
ernment.
EVER-NORMAL GRANARY PLAN
The result was that Congress passed the second adjustment act. This set up
Mr. Wallace's ever-normal granary, which gives farmers loans and stores their
surpluses in bumper-crop years. The intention is to release the stored crops in
short years. Thus it is hoped to prevent disastrous price declines in times of
high yield and consumer-gouging prices in seasons of crop failure. Soil-conserva-
tion payments continue to be made to farmers who restrict production to specified
acreages. When the surplus of a given crop threatens to become too large,
farmers vote on compulsory marketing quotas. If their vote is favorable, the
sales of all growers are limited. These quotas have been applied to cotton and
tobacco in the past 3 years. Also the Government has made extensive loans to
cotton, corn, and wheat farmers. As a result, it now holds more than 10,000,000
bales of cotton and 456,000,000 bushels of corn.
These Agricultural Adustment Administration programs have been aimed pri-
marily at the commercial farmers — those whose fortunes depend upon price rela-
tionships in the markets. Much less publicity has been given the Government's
efforts in other but no less important fields.
FABM CREDIT ADMINISTRATION
For one thing, the Farm Credit Administration provides farmers with both
long-term and short-term credit at low interest rates. Hundreds of thousands of
farm mortgages have been refinanced and so made more bearable for the debtors.
Today the Farm Credit Administration holds 40 percent of the total mortgage
debt, and private lenders feel that Government competition is driving them from
the field. But to millions of farm ijeople whose homes were saved this has been
the most important New Deal measure.
Throughout our history, as Mr. Wallace has remarked, the Federal Government
has been mainly concerned with the top third of our farmers. It is to the ever-
lasting credit of the Roosevelt administration that it has turned the attention of
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3773
Government at last to the widespread poverty of our less fortunate farmers and
that it has taken steps to help them. During the depression 2,000,000 farm
families received some form of relief. This brought home to economists, sociolo-
gists, and public officials the extent and nature of rural poverty. They began to
see that millions of farmers are little affected by the ups and downs of the great
commercial markets. Their troubles are poor land, bad tenancy conditions,
dwarf holdings, a vicious credit system, ignorance, and malnutrition.
FARM SE3CURITY ADMINISTRATION
The Government has gradually built up an extensive, though still far from
adequate program for aiding the low-income farmers. Through the Farm Secur-
ity Administration more than 1,000,000 farm families have received small loans
and grants that enable them to buy needed equipment— seed, fertilizer, clothing,
and food— and so put them on their feet again. Along with the loans goes expert
advice on farm management. The great majority of those aided have greatly
improved their conditions. . . , ,.~,
The Farm Security Administration is also experimenting with different types
of farm organization, including complete agricultural cooperatives that break
sharply with the traditional American concept of the independent family farm.
Some help is being given to migrants by providing them witli camps. A tenant-
purchase program is now enabling some 13,000 tenants and laborers to buy their
own farms with the aid of long-time Government loans, and 9,000 more will be
helped in the same way next year. , • -f ^fP^^f
The Farm Security Administration has done much good work in its ettort
to aid low-income farmers and tenants. The emphasis has been on subsistence
farming in order to minimize the possibility that the rehabilitated farmers
will add to the already excessive agricultural supplies. Nevertheless, the need
for at least some cash obliges them to produce for the market to some extent.
There is a danger that people on such subsistence farms will become part-time
industrial workers in factories that have fled to small towns and are looking
for docile, low-priced labor. In any case, subsistence farming tends toward
a living standard that is rather low at best.
Perhaps this cannot be helped so long as many more people are engaged
in agriculture than are needed for commercial production at present levels
of demand. And the excess farm population cannot now be used at good
wages in industry, though an armaments boom can provide a partial remedy
for a time. The long-run solution, as Mr. Wallace has suggested, may be to
raise consumption of farm products by increasing the national income. Obvi-
ously, the dilemma is one of our whole economy, not merely of agriculture.
FEDERAL SURPLUS COMMODITIES CORPORATION
Urban relief is joined to farm relief by the Federal Surplus Commodities
Corporation, which has bought billions of ix)unds of excess agricultural com-
modities for distribution to millions of unemployed people in the towns and
cities. The food-stamp plan is the latest and most popular phase of this pro-
gram. Tlius, a start has been made to bridge the gap between farm surpluses
and human wants.
The expenditures for agricultural adjustment, conservation, and farm relief
from 1932 to the end of the present fiscal year will reach a total of $7,000,000,000.
(This includes loans by the Farm Security Administration, some of which will
eventually be recovered.) And the outlays have tended to rise year by year.
INCREASE AND MAINTENANCE OF FARM INCOME SINCE 1932
What of the results? Gross farm income almost doubled between 1932 and
1937, going from $5,500,000,000 to $10,600,000,000. During the last 2 years it
has hovered about the $10,000,000,000 mark. When allowance is made for
changes in the prices of goods bought by farmers, we find that agricultural
real income has risen throughout the Roosevelt administration. In the past
3 years it has about equalled the levels of the late 1920's. Of course, the
farm population is bigger than it was 10 years ago, which means that the real
3774
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
income per capita is somewliat smaller. Government payments to farmers
have played an increasingly important role in tbis rise. But the net effect
is the same — improvement in farm conditions.
Various types of farmers and different agricultural regions did not share
equally in these gains. The incomes of farmers who entered the Agricultural
Adjustment Administration programs increased more than did the returns
of those who stayed outside and took their chances on benefiting merely from
increased prices. Highly organized fruit and truck fanners on the Pacific
coast and elsewhere gained considerably from marketing agreements, as did
dairymen in important urban milksheds. Other fruit, vegetable, and dairy
farrners have had smaller benefits.
In a broad sense, the whole agricultural policy of the New Deal appears
to have been aimed at suspending the operation of natural forces on American
agriculture. These forces, in general, have been tending to push people out
of agriculture. It might well appear that the farmers who would go first
are those who have failed in the competitive struggle, and that those remain-
ing in agriculture are the more eflicient farmers. If this were true, then
the New Deal's policy — by counteracting such a tendency — has retarded the
rise of agricultural eflSciency. However, so long as nonfarming opportunities
for rural people are meager, this would at least be a choice of the lesser of
two evils.
Moreover, the meaning of efficiency in agriculture — as in other fields — is by
no means definite. Pecuniary criteria no doubt would demand the weeding-out
of many family farmers. But, as we have observed in an earlier chapter,
pecuniary efficiency is not necessarily consonant with the greatest social well-
being. Many family farms may not produce goods so cheaply, on a doUars-
and-cents basis, as do other types of farm enterprise. Yet they may be vastly
more important to preserve if they can produce good citizens. The relationship
between agi"icultural policy and the general welfare deserves more attention
than has been given it.
AGRICULTITRAL AD.JUSTMENT ADMINISTRATION BENEFIT PAYMENTS TO COMMERCIAL
FARMERS AND CORPORATIONS
Inasmuch as the adjustment programs have dealt mainly with problems of
commercial agriculture, their income contributions flowed primarily to the
upper half of our farmers^ — that is, to the farmers who produce the great bulk
of all agricultural products sent to market. Their situation has been greatly
improved since 1932. Even in the period of general recession during 1937-38,
governmental action tended to protect these farmers. And certain commercial
producers, notably sugar growers, have been supported despite their relatively
high production costs. They have been able to expand output at a time wiien
other farmers have had to curtail acreage and production.
Very large benefits, too, were paid to corporations interested in farming.
Payments of $10,000 or more were made under 348 contracts in 1933, and
564 in 1934. Some 94 producers in 1937, and 113 in 1938, each received over
$10,000 as soil-consei-vatlon benefits. Most of these payments went to life
insurance companies and banks that had become large owners of farms through
mortgage foreclosures. The Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. alone was paid
$257,095 for complying with the 1937 program. It may be that these large
operators were not particularly in need of farm relief, yet their participation
was necessary if the programs were to be made effective. Here again, com-
plaint can be aimed less properly at the Agricultural Adjustment Administra-
tion than at our economic organization.
It is hardly surprising that such handouts to corporate farmers were sharply
criticized, despite the fact that the great bulk of the Agricultural Adjustment
Administration benefits went to family-operated farms. Congress responded
in 1938 by prohibiting the payment of more than $10,000 to any one person or
corporation. It is reported that few corporations have ceased to participate in
the farm program because of this restriction. In some cases, however, it
seems to place inequitable burdens on large agricultural enterprises.
As a result of coercive Agricultural Adjustment Administration programs,
some large, low-cost commercial farmers perhaps have been hampered in ex-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3775
panding. Many farmers, indeed, have found themselves coerced by economic
weapons into modifying tlieir management so as to fit into a larger scheme.
This may have been a severe loss to those who value their liberty as "free and
independent" producers. But the cash compensations seem to have made most
farmers willing to forego this liberty, or so the large majorities favoring the
program under most Agricultural Adjustment Administration referenda would
suggest. For cotton farmers, the impact of the Agricultural Adjustment Ad-
ministration on their exports may yet prove to be decisive in their economic
decline. But again, from the short-run point of view, these ixtteutial losses
were offset by immediate gains.
EFFECTS OF AGBICULTUBAL ADJUSTMENT ADMINISTRATION PROGRAM ON TENANTS AND
I,ABOREI!S
Many share-tenants, croppers, and farm laborers have benefited little from
the Agricultural Adjustment Administration. Indeed, many have lost employ-
ment and incomes as a direct result of crop curtailment.
Reduction of crops under the adjustment programs meant that fewer man-
hours were needed in their production. On an owner-operated farm, the
general result was that the farmer and his family had more time available
for other purposes without having their income reduced. But on tenant farms
and on farms with hired workers, inequities in sharing the reductions in
labor time and the benefit payments could easily arise. This was especially
probable in the South, because of its sharp social cleavages and the complexi-
ties of its landlord-tenant relationships.
The need for labor on cotton farms and plantations has decreased in recent
years, and this has popularly been attributed to the Agricultural Adjustment
Administration. Studies sponsored by the Administration report that the early
cotton programs had little responsibility for the disiilacement of tenants and
sharecropix-rs, at least. On other hand, the Southern Tenant Farmers' Union
asserts that the adjustment programs have been the primary influence in the
removal of at least 500,000 tenant families from the hmd during the past decade.
This estimate is perhaps exaggerated, but there is no denying the displacement
of large numbers of farm tenants and laborers. And there is no doubt that many
have been penalized by the adjustment schemes. Paul S. Taylor, an authority
on migratory agricultural labor, reports that in 1934-35 the number of tractors in
some of the'most productive parts of the Cotton Belt doubled, and that this was
made possible in large measure by the ca.sh paid to landlords by the Government.
He points out :
"The old system based on tenant and cropi^er families on small, family-sized
farms is in process of profound transformation. In its place is appearing an
industrialized form of agriculture employing wage laborers. * * * On the
]and!-:cape are the marks of farms growing bigger and fewer, abandoned houses
and rural depopulation, tenant farmers reduced to the status of wage labcn-ers
thrown on relief and scattered to other districts. Landlords clash with their
tenants over the crop-adjustment checks, though not openly or in organized
fashion. The landlords force tenants off the place, then use the increased cash
income resulting from the agricultural-adjustment programs * * * as pay-
ments on tractor.^. * * *"
Professor Taylor's study deals with the western Cotton Belt, which is likely
to produce an increasing proportion of our total cotton output in the future. In
the Old South it is probable that the displacement of tenants has been much less
severe.
In justice to the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, we should note that
it has long been common practice among landlords to shift their workers frcmi
cropper to wage-labor status and back again, as the cotton production cost and
price outlook have fluctuated. In general, and at given wage rates, a landlord
finds it increasingly worthwhile to use wage-labor as the price of cotton rises.
Agricultural Adjustment Administration acreage control, loans, and benefit pay-
ments have tended to advance the price, and so have contributed to the shift from
sharecroppers to wage-workers. Furthermore, many rural workers probably
have preferred Work Projects Administration relief to laboring in the fields at
Jow wages.
onna. INTERSTATE MIGRATION
DISPLACEMENT BY MECHANIZATION
A ereat deal of the displacement of tenants, croppers, and laborers has resulted
not directly from Agricultural Adjustment Administration acreage curtailment
but from mechanization. To be sure, technological changes in cotton cultivation
have been accelerated by the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, not only
to the extent that it has given cotton planters cash with which to buy machinery,
but also because the substitution of machines for tenants and croppers enables
the landlords to double their share of the Government subsidy. Thus a farm-
machineiT dealer in the South can well say that the Agr cultural Adjustment
Administration has been "God's gift to the tractor people." But it is probable
that this would have taken place even if the adjustment programs had not
" CONFLICTS BETWEEN LANDLORDS AND TENANTS
The Adjustment Administration has also been criticized sharply for alleged
unfairness in the distribution of benefit payments among landlords and tenants
of the South Elsewhere in the country both landlord and tenant signed each con-
tract and apparently there was little conflict over the division of benefits.
Under the cotton plow-up in 1933, the Administration intended that its payments
should be shared in accordance with the interests that landlord and tenant had
in the crop. But in 1934-35 the payments were considered to be largely rent for
land taken out of cultivation, and croppers and noumanaging share tenants were
entitled to relatively little. Many landlords deducted old debts owed them by
tenants from the tenants' share in the benefits. There is evidence, too, that
unscrupulous landlords retained money that should have gone to their tenants
On the other hand, many owners with cash- or share-tenants were dissatisfied
with their part in the payments, and some refused to sign contracts for that
reason The Agricultural Adjustment Administration was placed in a dilemma
by these conflicts. But it felt obliged to secure maximum participation in the
programs, and it is therefore not surprising that it made concessions to operating
farm owners.
PKESENT METHOD OF DISTRIBUTING BENEFIT PAYMENTS
True, the Administration has attempted to minimize such inequities by seek-
ing to divide the reduction in acreage proportionately among landlords and
tenants. Under the present program, soil-conservation and parity payments
are distributed in the same proportion as crops are shared under the terms
of the landlord-tenant agreements, except that payments for soil-building prac-
tices are divided in accordance with the contribution of each party. Checks
are made out separately to landlords, tenants, and sharecroppers. The act
specifies that extra payments are to be made to persons who would otherwise
receive only small amounts. And it obligates landlords not to reduce the
number of their tenants below the average number on their farms during
the three preceding years. The loop-hole is that the limitation applies "only
if the county committee finds that the change or reduction is not justified
and disapproves such change or reduction."
According to a Missouri planter who has been seeking fairer treatment of
croppers, this provision has lead to :
"* * * a situation which exposes committeemen to constant and unceas-
ing pressure and which inevitably leads to contradictory and confusing deci-
sions. * * * It is not overstating the case very much to say that we have
almost as many different tenancy or worker policies in cotton control as
there are counties and county committees. * * * What liappens after a
landlord decides upon a change? He goes to the committee and thereupon
the three harrassed men who are trying to run a complicated cotton program
find themselves in an impossible position. They know very well that since
1933, other owners have shifted to (l:iy labor and are getting all the payments.
Why, therefore, should they discriminate against this late-comer? * * *
They get very little credit if tliey stand firm and try to run a good program.
On the other hand, determined and oftentimes greedy men give them hell
if they disapprove the change. With this situation, the result can be foreseen.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3777
More ami more shifts occur. More and more sharecroppers become a part
of the floating and dispossessed army tliat is a constantly growing threat to
the stability of the South. * * * But the planters who do not choose to
go to the day-labor route may still be unwilling to be outsmarted by those
who do. So they may elect other effective means to divert the cropper's
payments into their own pockets, among which are what sometimes are called
bonus rents, privilege rents, and side assignment arrangements. Whatever
these arrangements are called, they constitute a means of taking the payments
that Congress intended to go to the tenant and sharecropper."
As indicated above, the present adjustment laws are not so lacking in
safeguards for tenants as was the original act. Yet, they are still plentifully
supplied with loop-holes by which the landowner may, if he wishes, profit at
the tenant's expense. According to a newspaperman, Charles Edmundson —
"Among some high officials of the Department of Agriculture itself, there
is indignation that no greater protection has been offered to tenants and share-
croppers * * * Agricultural Adjustment Administration officials tend to
blame Congress for the faults of the law. Congressmen say, with dubious
authority, that the provisions are working satisfactory in communities where
the tenants and sharecroppers have a political voice. But representatives of
the sharecroppers reply that the administration is to blame for not having
brought pressure on Congress to write a law that would protect the share-
cropper."
Relatively larger gains to the landlord group have apparently not been
peculiar to the South. A study of the distribution of the Agricultural Adjust-
ment Administration benefits in the Corn Belt led Walter W. Wilcox to the
following conclusion :
'It may safely be concluded that landlords as a group have benefited more
from the Agricultural Adjustment Administration * * * than have ten-
ants. The same conclusion might also be applied to large farmers as com-
pared with small farmers. * * * Nevertheless, in spite of unequal
benefits * * * almost all Iowa farmers find it profitable to be in the Agricid-
tural Adjustment Administration program this year, as in 1939."
FARM LABOR EXCLUDED FEOM PEOTECTIVE LEGISLATION
Agricultural workers are largely excluded from the benefits of protective
labor laws and social insurance, and agricultural wage-workers' incomes and em-
ployment opportunities have improved little since 1932. The Agricultural Adjust-
ment Administration legislation makes no provision that hired workers be com-
pensated for loss of employment due to acreage reduction. P^arm workers in
recent years have probably been in a worse situation than at any other time
in our history since the end of Negro slavery. This is mainly the cruel out-
come of the onrushing mechanization of agriculture. The widespread adoption
of tractors and other farm machines has wiped out the need for migrant ]ab(;r
in most of the grain areas, and it is greatly reducing the demand for wage
workers everywhere. Furthermore, the exemption of agricultural employers
from the requirements of the Wage and Hour Act virtually lends official
sanction to the long working day and low wage rates characteristic of farm
employment. To be sure, some protection has been given to sugar-beet field
woikers under the sugar acts.
At best, it is exceedingly difficult to operate the programs — set as they are
in the going agi-icultural system— in such a way that tenants, croppers, and
laborers will have complete protection ^gainst loss of income. And it would
b? unfair to censure the Agricultural Adjustment Administration too severely
for neglecting the submerged half of our farm population. Any agricultural
program designed to help farmers by means of operations in the traditional
pi-ice system must of necessity concern itself primarily with commercial farm
operators. Nor can the Agricultural Adjustment Administration be blamed for
fundamentally ins^ecure labor and tenancy conditions in the South. As the
Brookings Institution says:
"Those who have most strongly criticized the working of the program on thLs
score in effect contended that it should have operated to correct conditions
which have been more than a century in the making, which the Adjustment Act
was never designed to correct and which call for readjustments so funda-
mental that another century will probably not see them nearly made."
r^yyg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
SPECIAL GOVERNMENT ATTENTION TO LOW-INCOME FARMEKS
Rei-pon.sibility for the distress of farm laborers liardiy rests with the Adjust-
ment Administration. Perhaps it might have undertaken to protect them
somewliat more, but it could not go far under the terms of its programs.
We must keep in mind, too, that some efforts on behalf of less fortunate
rural people are being made, especially under the Farm Security Administra-
tion. As we have seen, these activities are perhaps little more than experi-
mental, but they are a beginning. In view of the political power of the various
groups in agriculture, it is surprising, not that so little is accomplished for
poorer farmers, but that even this much is being done.
In fact, under the New Deal, low-income farmers have been the object of
special governmental attention for the first time. Of outstanding importance
is the recognition that their problems require measures that go bsyond those
intended to aid commercial agriculture. As we have noted, rehabilitation loans
and grants and expert counsel have helped over a million of the most insecure
farmers. Thousands have been moved from submarginal land and settled
either on individual farms or in cooperative communities where they have a
better chance of making a living. A small number of farm wage workers and
tenants have participated in the tenant-purchase program, and a few have
been settled in experimental conniuniities. Other's have availed themselves
of the migrant-labor camps established by the Federal Security Administration
on the Pacific coast and in Florida. Most of the immense job remains to be
done, but at least a start has been made.
COUNTY PR0C5AM PLANNING COMMITTEES
At this point we may seek to assess certain claims made by advocates and
critics of the New Deal farm policy. One group emphasizes the democratic
character of prodiucer referenda and county program planning committees. The
other points to licen.ses, orders, marketing quotas, and penalty taxes — and
cries, "'Regimentation !" As in many heated controversies, the truth seems
to lie somewhere between the two extremes. In 1934 Mr. Wallace warned of
"compulsory control of marketing, licensing of plowed land, base and surplus
quotas for every farmer for every product for each month in the year * ■' *
and Government control of all surpluses * * *." Since then, indeed, control
of marketing and crop surpluses has l>een instituted in large measure.
Mr. Wallace also feared the day when "every plowed field would have its
permit sticking up on its post." Alreaily we hear demands for a restriction
of the entrance of new farmers into production.
ITnquestionably, the agricultural policy under the New Deal has been tending
toward "regimentation," if by that term we mean- a degree of centralized plan-
ning and control, compliance witli which is obtained both by persuasion and
by fear of economic or other penalties. Still, this is not the whole story. We
have perhaps mo^ed far toward this kind of "regimentation," yet in 1938 a
minority of tobacco farmers could prevent the imposition of marketing quotas
favored by the majority in a referendum. Moreovei', the various county com-
mittees have had their powers and scope of operations constantly expanded.
According to Secretary Wallace :
"We are slowly building a mechanism, county by county * * * by means
of which the farmers themselves will determine the (dements of their total
agricultural program, will decide how these elements may be welded together
in one effective program, and finally will administer that program * * *.
Our jab in the DoparUneut and in the colleges is to put the facts before them,
and to abide by their decisions."
This sounds not at all like the language of a dictator. Nor does the declara-
tion of M. I.. Wilson, that "* * '■'■' as changing national and world condi-
tions require national policies by the Federal Government in agriculture
* * * the national aspects of these programs must be offset by propor-
tionately increas'd individual participation by the farmer and his f.';mily in
the formation of the national policy and its administration."
Questions really involved here are : How democratic are the.se processes in
actual operation? How effective are they? Do the county and community
committees, which play an important part under the various farm programs.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3779
represent all groups in the farm community, or are they packed with farmers
in the higher-income brackets, or with those who belong to a ix)litical clique,
or with those who are friends of the county agents? To what extent do the
subsidies warp their judgments? Is sufficient information available to these
bodies so that they can make wise decisions? Are their members capable of
arriving at conclusions that must be based on complex data, and many of which
must be related inevitably to uonagricultural affairs in the Nation and with
international developments? i
No conclusive answers can be given to most of these and similar questions
at present, inasmuch as systematic data on the activities of the committees is
not available. It is regrettable that the Department of Agriculture, with its
extensive research facilities, has not made a formal study of the operation of
even a representative sample of the county committees, their composition, and
operation.
In the early years of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, certainly,
many county committees were anything but representative of all farm groups
affected. Two observers of the 1933 cotton "plow up" wrote : "The county agent
was the local keyman in the campaign. He appointed a county cornmittee,
composed of the leading big farmers * * *. in the hundreds of counties we
visited we did not find a single case where a sharecropper or a representative
of the poorer ranks of farmers was put on the committee." And such a situa-
tion was probably not peculiar to the Cotton Belt.
There is at least some testimony that the recent operation of the cotton
programs in the field has been a parody of "farmers' democracy." A staff
correspondent of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch writes :
"New Deal enthusiasts in the Department of Agriculture like to expand
upon the Agricultural Adjustment Administration as a 'new form of democracy,
a kind of self-government, that reaches down to the grassroots and touches on
economic as well as political organization.' This glowing description is hardly
sustained by the facts one finds in a first-hand ex'amination of the way the
Agricultural Adjustment Administration is working in the Cotton Belt. * * *
The law presupposes that all 'producers' have the right to vote in electing these
all-important (county) committees— 'producer' being defined to include tenants
and sharecroppers as well as landowners. But while this is the nominal intent
of the law, the reality is often something quite different. In and around
Tunica, Clarksdale, and Greenwood, Mi.ss. * * * not 1 out of perhaps 50
Negro tenant farmers interviewed had ever heard that he had the right to vote
in electing the committee. And a white sharecropper, who knew he was sup-
posed to vote in electing the only body which could protect his rights, was
almost an equal rarity. But it would be an error to assume that the share-
croppers are barred from ^ill Agricultural Adjustment Administration elections.
Each year the 'producers' vote on whether they will continue the crop-control
scheme for another year. In these elections the landowners not only notify
the tenants and sharecroppers of the approaching election but see to it that
they vote. This balloting is not secret, and the sharecroppers say that they
•are firmly advised how to cast their votes. * * * This, in general, is the
way the 'new form of democracy' works in the great Delta sections of Missis-
sippi, Arkansas, and Louisiana. It is much the same in Alabama and Georgia's
fertile Black Belt."
In general, however, it appears that the county committees have done their
work at least satisfactorily, so far as application of the program goes, for the
Department has often expressed its appreciation of their sei*vices. According
to the Brookings Institution :
"It is the testimony even of the most conservative and independent of the
directors [of the State agi-icultural agencies] that the commodity programs
of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration substantially increased the
amount of active participation of local farmers in study of basic problems of
efficient farm management and developed many new local leaders."
And where political troubles have arisen, as in 'an attempt in 1935 to weld the
committees into a national pressure organization, the Administration has taken
prompt and effective action. On the other hand, it is hard to see how com-
mitteemen can escape the temptation to manipulate local application of pro-
grams so as to maximize the flow of benefit payments to their counties.
260370— 41— pt. 9-
g-^SO INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Problems of a more technical nature may also develop as the scope of the
committees is widened. How much freedom shall they be given to depart
from the national plan? After all, if even minor modifications in a particular
direction are made in many counties, the total extent of departure from the
national plan may be serious. Shall adjustments in one county be permitted
to shift problems to other localities, as when county committees advise their
sui-plus population to move to other sections? These and other problems will
no doubt be dealt with as they arise, with results that we must await.
Finally — and this is a very important question — does the scheme for a
"farmers' democracy" make room for democratic participation by nonfarm
groups that also have a proper concern for agricultural policy? Or is it just
one more way of organizing private groups, under governmental auspices, to
work primarily in their own interests? One answer has been that Congress;
represents the general public's interests in the shaping of farm policy.
THE OUTLOOK FOK AMERICAN' AGKICXJXTURE
There is no question that the New Deal's programs have resulted in sub-
stantial immediate benefits to farmers. They have won considerable success in
their primary mission of overcoming depression on the farm front. But it is
intended that agricultural income be raised — not us a result of mere "handouts,"
but as a result of efforts to strengthen farmers in the markets. What, then,
seem to be the longer-run trends of American commercial agriculture? Is it
being fiuidamentally strengthened by current policy? And what of the dis-
advantaged half of our farmers, those whose fortunes are less intimately bound
up with the markets for commercial crops? Such are the ultimately important
questions.
It must be said that — so far as the great staples are concerned— the basic
dilemma remains. And this, us we have seen, is finally a dilemma of our entire
economy. Large potential supplies and inadequate demands, at home and
abroad, still tend to hold prices at levels unprofitable to many farmers. Not
only have underlying weaknesses of our agriculture been perpetuated, but new
strains and stresses have appeared. In the absence of subsidies, many farmers*
incomes are likely to remain inadequate. To be sure the Agricultural Adjust-
ment Administration has effected some reductions of current market supplies,
and it must be kept in mind that its controls were virtually suspended in 1936-37.
Moreover, much good is likely to fiow from the Agricultural Adjustment Ad-
ministration's encouragement of shifts of acreage from cultivated crops to
pasture crops, not least because this reduces soil depletion and erosion. But
at the same time, other forces — chiefiy technological and biological — are tending
to increase agricultural yields. And there is always a question whether farmers
will agree to further reduction of output, so long as they see a political possi-
bility of obtaining subsidies. True, in years of bumper crops farmers may
approve of governmental efforts to withhold stocks from the market, but they
are not so likely to support subsequent sale of these stocks.
On the whole, our farm programs have concentrated on short-term problems,
those that can be expressed in terms of prices and incomes over a period of a
few years. A major exception is the effort at soil conservation with its concern
for the saving of our priceless land resources. But the dilemma of a far-flung
agriculture, whose foreign markets are fast ebbing away, has not been faced
directly or completely. No effective answer has. been given to the primary
question of how many of our people we want in agriculture, and what role we
wish agriculture to play in our evolving economy. Perhaps this concentration
on more immediate problems and tasks is inevitable in a democracy where
political pressure from powerful and selfish groups is constantly prodding
government into paths of least resistance.
As would be expected in the given political and social environment, the pro-
grams have revolved principally around aid for the commercially significant
farmers. Relatively little help has gone to the most disadvantaged rural
people — the smaller, poorer farmers and tenants, and the farm wage workers.
There is also a possibility that benefits under the programs accrue as an added
return to the land. If this is capitalized in higher land values, the purpose
of helping farmers in need tends once again to be defeated. In other words,
the adjustment of benefits to human needs has been none too close. To some
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3781
extent, at least, this has been unavoidable in view of practical and legal
necessities. Moreover, we must always keep in mind that the New Deal
administration has at least recognized the problems of disadvantaged farmers
and laborers, and that it has taken steps in their behalf. But these steps are
still far short of what is needed in order to tackle their problems and overcome
them.
Too little emphasis has been placed on stimulation of demand, at least in
the earlier years of the New Deal programs. Moreover, efforts to reduce
production of export crops have tended to be self-defeating, largely because they
have encouraged foreign producers to increase their output. That is, not only
have the farm programs done relatively little to raise demands for the staples,
but also in some cases they have operated to reduce the market outlets. This
has been most serious for cotton. Support of American cotton prices above
world levels, by means of loans and storage, has checked sales in markets
abroad and stimulated foreign production of the staple. The farm programs
are by no means alone responsible for this decline. Yet it remains that most
of our foreign cotton market is lost^even if we are prepared for extensive
subsidization — and that the situation of American cotton agriculture is pre-
carious. It is the weakest sector in our farm economy.
To be sure, an increasing amount of foodstuffs has been made available for
consumption by low-income families. And the food-stamp plan promises to do
much to break down barriers to the consumption of farm products by millions
of Americans who suffer from inadequate diets. Surely this is more humane,
and in the long run economically wiser, than to "dump"' the goods abroad or to
store them speculatively for long periods at home. Yet, in the main, domestic
demands can he raised substantially only if our entire industrial system op-
erates on higher levels than in the past. This is hardly within the scope of
agricultural programs as such, but it must be the objective of a broader
national policy of which agricultural programs are a part.
DECLINE OF WORLD MARKET
It is true that general economic recovery since 1938 stimulated domestic
demands for some products, but not sufficiently to enable us to say that the
crisis is ended. The world market outlook still points to declining American
farm exports. And the New World AVar has further dai'kened the long-run
prospects. Demands of the belligerents for food and cotton may rise if the
war is protracted, but they cannot be expected to remain on high levels after
the war. We do not know what the ultimate effects of the war will be on our
agriculture. But inasmuch as the incomes of belligerent peoples are likely to
be reduced, we can expect only a restricted outlet for American farm products
in Europe. Some observers look for increased exports of our industrial products
to Latin American countries, because of the inability of Europeans to supply
them. Yet it is hard to see how this could directly help our agriculture,
simply because those countries also produce surpluses of grains, meats, and
cotton. In fact, if our industrial exports to the South Americans increase
greatly, and if we expect to be paid, then it seems inevitable that we must
accept increasing amounts of agricultural products from them.
It is hard to escape the conclusion that — unless domestic demands increase
greatly— three possibilities confront us : Millions of rural people must be
doomed to chronic poverty, or must leave the land, or must be subsidized by
the Government. But our farmers will not sink into chronic poverty without
vigorous protests, and they have political power to translate their protests
Into action. On the other hand, if our urban economy were to expand so
that it could absorb farmers at decent wages, then much would be gained.
But, with millions of industrial workers unemployed, the low-income farmers
and the young people backed up on farms cannot move to the cities to make
a living. Indeed, certain authorities believe, not without reason, that any
large reduction of our rural population would be a national calamity. At any
rate, so long as our urban economy does not expand greatly, we must be
prepared to hear demands for continued agricultural subsidies. And again,
the political power of farmers makes it probable that these demands will
be met.
3782
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Of course, it is not likely that the futvire will witness any one of these alterna-
tives alone. Life is not so simple. Industry will probably continue to absorb
some rural people; others will become poor or even poorer; still others will be
helped by the Government to stay on the land. Some farmers, especially those
with low costs, may make good livings even without special help. Prophecy of
social changes is dangerous. But, short of unforeseeable developments, America
cannot be expected to maintain a large rural population on satisfactory living
levels without public aid. Otherwise a growing unrest among farm people might
well endanger our democracy.
There is a final question : Is subsidy even less desirable than the evils it is in-
tended to ovei-come? Many persons think so. They see vested interests being
built up, and demanding more and ever more from the public purse. They also
argue that subsidies restrict the ability of nonagricultural industries to employ
people now on farms. Joseph S. Davis, an eminent agricultural economist,
declares :
"Raising farm income above its economic equilibrium level tends to mean more
farmers than can earn these incomes; this hampers consolidation into more
efficient operating units, creates a problem of surplus farm population, and
intensifies demands for subsidies to farmers; and it logically leads next to re-
straints on entrance into farming * * *. No one has yet seriously proposed
that measures to regulate acreage, farming procedures, production, and marketing
be reinforced by regulation of the entrance into and exit from farming, but these
are logical further strands in the tightening web of regimentation * * *
Farmers have set great store by independence, whatever its limitations in prac-
tice. The new policies are not only curtailing this independence but sapping their
morale, even though many recognize as bonuses payments that are camouflaged
under more appealing names. Once accustomed to a gentle rain of Federal checks,
farmers are reluctant to see the rains cease — however irrational the procedure
may appear to them, however uncomfortable the terms imposed. Regardless of
the purity of motives of the administration, a subtle form of political corruption
is involved ; for farmers' votes are effectually influenced when their income reems
to depend increasingly on political measures, and less and less on the economic
value that society sets on their products and services * * * j believe that
beyond somewhat narrow limits higher real incomes per farm family are condi-
tioned upon reductions in our commercial farming personnel, as well as increase
of size of commercial farms to accommodate imyn-oved machine technique; and
that .subsidies to keep more people in farming will not avail, in the long run, to
raise incomes per farmer."
There is merit in these criticisms. However, it is one thing to criticize farm
policy, and quite another — and much more difficult — thing to propose alternatives
that are politically feasible.
Moreover, it ought to be recalled that government has always subsidized one
group or another, not least many people who consider themselves "ruggedly
independent." Indeed subsidies can sometimes be justified. Short-run subsidies
may be advisable when there are sudden large changes in demand or in tech-
nology that would result in great hardships to many persons. Long-run sub-
sidies may be warranted when there is a continuing discrepancy between market
demand and social utility. Here, of course, the difficulty is objectively to meas-
ure "social utility." As for American agriculture, it may be argued that short-
run aid is required because the only practical alternative is increa.sed poverty
for many farmers. Secondly, long-run subsidies may be desirable if we are
convinced that farm life has inherent social values not found elsewhere.
One conclusion is forced upon us, again and again. Our farm problem is part
and parcel of our national problem. We shall have surpluses of goods, surpluses
of farmers, cries for public help, so long as the incomes of American families
remain on their present levels. So long as men and women do not have adequate
food or sufficient clothing, we shall suffer from the folly of want in the midst
of plenty. Yet we cannot resign ourselves to accepting this as inevitable. The
task before us is to find means for making a wise and humane use of all our
resources. It is here that America's agriculture will find its salvation. And
here is a task calling for the highest social statesmanship.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3783
TESTIMONY OF CARL T. SCHMIDT— Resumed
The Chairman. Congressman Osmers will interrogate you, Dr.
Schmidt.
Mr. Osmers. I wonder, Dr. Schmidt, if you would care to sum-
marize your statement briefly for us. As the Chairman said, your
entire statement will be placed in the record. I wonder if you would
care to high light it for us ?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir. My statement is concerned with the gen-
eral picture of American agriculture in recent years, and its outlook
in the foreseeable future.
It falls into four parts :
First, a consideration of basic forces that have been making for
persistent depression in American agriculture during the past 20
years; secondly, an outline of the main elements of our farm policy
and programs since 1932;
Thirdly, some comments on the effects of the Agricultural Ad-
justment programs on farm laborer and farm tenants; and, fourthly,
a brief indication of the outlook for American agi-iculture.
Would you care for me to dwell on any of these sections par-
ticularly ?
Mr. Osmers. Well, speaking as one member of the committee, I
would like to have you dwell, if you will, on the outlook for Amer-
ican agriculture with particular reference to the future migration
that may come as a result of agricultural conditions.
Mr. Schmidt. It may be a little bit difficult to make quite clear
what I have in mind with respect to the predictable future of Amer-
ican agriculture without first considering some of the forces that
have been making for depression. However, I will go on to that
if you wish.
Mr. Osmers. Well, proceed in your own way on that. Dr. Schmidt.
CAUSES OF DECLINE OF AMERICAN AGRICULTURE
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir. I think we can briefly summarize the
nature of the factors that have been making for a decline of Ameri-
can staple-crop agriculture during the past 20 years, or even during
the past generation, somewhat as follows :
Our staple-crop-farm system was built up not only to supply do-
mestic demands but also great foreign markets.
During the past generation, particularly since the first World
War, the foreign markets for American staple crops have declined
very seriously. At the same time domestic demand has tended to
stagnate. That was evident even before the beginning of the great
depression in 1929.
On the other hand, our farmers, our staple-crop farmers, have con-
tinued to produce in great abundance, hence a persistent tendency
for the prices of these staple crops to decline, or at any rate to
decline in the face of relatively rigid costs of production and farm
living.
3yg4 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Another way of putting it is to say that these forces of supply
and demand have tended to make prices received by farmers in-
sufficient to enable them to live satisfactorily.
In broad terms we should also take note of the contrast between
the small-scale highly competitive character of American agriculture!
on the one hand, and the increasingly integrated large-scale character
of American urban industry on the other hand.
This contradiction between two great parts of our economic sys-
tem goes a long way toward explaining the relative weakness of
farm prices.
Furthermore, as I have indicated, the foreign markets for our
cotton, our wheat, our hog products, and tobacco have contracted
seriously since the World War.
In general we can attribute this decline in our foreign markets to
the rise of new competitors to our American farmers in other parts
of the world, as, for example, in the Argentine, Australia, Canada.
We can attribute it furthermore to the growth of economic nation-
alism, especially in European countries who were formerly good
customers of American farmers.
And certainly we can attribute some of it to nationalistic economic
policies in this country, particularly with respect to our tariff pro-
grams.
Furthermore, as noted a few moments ago, domestic demand has
tended to stagnate. In the main this is a function of the tendency
of our rate of population growth to decline.
It is estimated that in time there may even be fewer mouths to
feed and backs to clothe in this country than there are now. At any
rate this slowing down in the growth of our population has removed
one important bulwark from our agriculture that supported it in
large measure during the nineteenth century.
Mr. Curtis. May I interrupt you to ask a question ?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir.
STAPLE CROPS AND PERCENT OF CONSUMPTION
Mr. Curtis. What crops do you classify as "staple crops"?
Mr. Schmidt. By staple crops we generally understand cotton,
corn, hogs, wheat, and other small grains, and tobacco, primarily.
Mr. Curtis. What percentage of these staple crops are consumed
in the United States? What percentage of our production?
Mr. Schmidt. I should say that as regards cotton at the present
time, roughly, 65 to 70 percent is held in this country. A good deal
of it in recent years, of course, has not been consumed but is merely
being held in storage by the Government.
Mr. Curtis. What is true about wheat?
Mr. Schmidt. About 80 to 90 percent.
Mr. Curtis. Perhaps closer to 90 percent, is it not?
Mr. Schmidt. I should think so ordinarily, yes, sir,
Mr. Curtis. And corn and pork products?
Mr. Schmidt. Hog products, perhaps 90 percent. Also our exports
of lard have fallen off very considerably during the last 10 or 15
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3785
years. And tobacco, I should say, perhaps 70 percent. That is, up to
a year ago, at any rate, 70 percent was consumed in this country.
The percentages going to foreign markets is very much smaller than
they were 15 or 10 years ago.
Mr. Curtis. Are we an exporter of corn normally ?
Mr. Schmidt. Not normally ; no, sir.
LOSS OF FOREIGN COTTON MARKET
Mr. Curtis. Now, in regard to this, one of the Representatives
spoke on the House floor Monday of this week, a gentleman from
Mississippi, a cotton-producing State, and he stated that the expan-
sion of the production of cotton in Brazil followed immediately the
passage of the cotton-reduction legislation in the United States. Is
that true ?
Mr. Schmidt. It may look so, sir. I don't believe that the obvious
implication, however, is entirely correct, namely, that there is an
immediate cause and effect relationship between the cotton programs
in this country and the expansion of cotton production in Brazil.
In part, apparently, Brazilian farmers were encouraged to turn to
■cotton growing by reason of their difficulties in exporting coffee. In
part, and this holds for other cotton-producing areas outside of the
United States whose production has been increasing in recent years,
this is a part of a. general tendency for production of this staple in-
crease in low-cost areas.
Some of these areas produce cotton at lower prices than is possible
for the American farmers.
Mr. Curtis. Well, our export cotton business is practically gone,
is it not ?
Mr. Schmidt. I should say so ; yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. Do you anticipate that we will regain that ?
Mr. Schmidt. Short of unforeseeable developments abroad, I don't
think so.
Mr. OsMERs. Would you say. Dr. Schmidt, that the use of substitute
materials for cotton has been a contributing factor to the difficulties
in the cotton market?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir ; it has.
Mr. OsMERS. I am thinking principally of rayon at the moment.
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir; it has contributed very largely. Of course,
in certain European markets, such as Germany and Italy, it has con-
tributed principally to a shutting off of our markets.
Mr. OsMERS. You mean the drive toAvard self-sufficiency on the
part of those nations has driven them away from the cotton market.
Is it also true that a contributing factor to that situation was our
refusal here 5 or 6 years ago to take our usual share of Germany's
products?
For example, was that a contributing factor in their seeking other
sources for cotton and other materials?
Mr. Schmidt. I am not informed about that particularly or that
specific case, but I would say that in general the barriers that we have
thrown in the way of imports from foreign countries have contributed
3786 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
to the general difficulties of our farmers and particularly our cotton
farmers.
ACREAGE REDUCTION NOT SATISFACTORY TO REDUCE PRODUCTION
Mr. Curtis. You spoke of the reduction in farm production. Do you
contend that acreage reduction is a successful and satisfactory method
of reducing production?
Mr. Schmidt. Experience under the adjustment program seems to
indicate to the contrary in general. As we see in the development
of our agricultural legislation in recent years, there has been resort
to other devices for restricting production or, at any rate, restricting
the marketing of crops.
Mr. Curtis. Two things have happened, have they not? One of
them is the soil-conservation practices that have gone along with the
acreage reduction, plus the effort to make the farmer a better farmer
and the teaching of intensified farming. He has raised more bushels
of corn in many instances with the added help of hybrid corn than
they did a few years before.
Now, in reference to the price structure. The 10-percent excess of
wheat that we produce over our normal consumption is determining
the price of the entire crop, is it not? Or it is a very important
factor ?
Mr. Schmidt. It is a very important factor ; yes, sir.
two-price proposal
Mr. Curtis. Do you care to comment upon the two-price levels? Do
you think that we should have legislation that would establish a just
and adequate American price for the 90 percent of the wheat consumed
in this country and a different price for the 10 percent that is surplus?
Mr. Schmidt. The fundamental difficulty in the way of the two-
price proposal, it seems to me, is the likelihood of retaliation by the
very people to whom we want to sell this excess of our crops. That
is, if we are ready to go ahead and dump these crops at any price they
will fetch in foreign markets, at least in some of them we are likely
to find a retaliation in the way of counter-dumping.
Mr. Curtis. We are virtually doing that anyway, aren't we?
Mr. Schmidt. We are doing it to a limited extent ; yes, sir. Despite
the avowed opposition of our governmental agricultural leaders, we
have resorted to these export subsidies, presumably just because in our
desperation nothing else seemed to promise any help at all.
Mr. Curtis. I perhaps should not have mterrupted you when you
were proceeding with your statement.
difficulties in staple crop agriculture
Mr. Schmidt. I think I was discussing t^ery briefly factors of demand
that have been tending to depress farm prices in addition to the
tendency of population growth to fall off.
There have been changes in dietary habits, such as a reduction in
the per capita consumption of wheat and potatoes, and apparently cer-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3787
tain kinds of meat. And then also shifts in production of textiles
away from nonagriciiltural fibers as was mentioned a few moments
ago.
On the other hand, as I pointed out earlier, farmers have tended to
go on producing in large quantities. A fundamental explanation for
this continuing flood of staple crops onto our markets is to be found
in the mechanization of agriculture, together with other advances in
agricultural techniques that have been taking place at a very rapid
rat« during the past generation, and particularly rapid during the
1920's, and again within the last 5 or 6 years.
There are various estimates, of course, with respect to the increase
in labor productivity. That is a consequence of this rise in the pro-
ductive efficiency of agriculture.
One estimate has it that the average farmer and farm worker in
] 938 was producing something like 50 percent more than he did in 1909.
There are even more impressive examples of that kind of thing, but
I will not burden the record with them here.
Then, finally, among these factors making for fundamental diffi-
culties in staple-crop agriculture or fundamental difficulties, at any
rate for the people in the various staple-crop industries, are certain
influences that are not strictly related to the market.
After all, a great many of these people get only a part of their income
by way of market prices. There are other factors, such as illiteracy,
racial and social prejudices, and cleavages, farmers working on poor
soil or on too small farms. These are also factors that should be borne
in mind in trying to understand the troubles of the American farm
population in recent years.
Another section of my prepared statement is concerned with agri-
cultural policy and ])rograms since 1932.
I don't know whether you care for me to discuss them briefly again
or not.
Mr. Curtis. We would be very happy to have you proceed.
AGRICULTURAL POLICY AND PROGRAMS SINCE 1932
Mr. Schmidt. In brief outline, then, it can be said that the agri-
cultural adjustment program of 1933 to 1935 was based on the thesis
that in view of these difficulties we have been reviewing, immediate
help to farmers in the way of higher prices and higher incomes could
be obtained only by efforts to curtail market supplies. The devices
used to that end are fairly familiar. The Agricultural Adjustment
Administration undertook to obtain participation by farmers in
acreage reductions with respect to the major crops or so-called basic
crops.
Later on, so far as cotton and tobacco were concerned, it passed over
to a measure of coercing the control of marketing those crops. In
return for their participation the contracting farmers were given
benefit payments adjusted in proportion to the cuts in acreage or
marketing that they had made.
Certain subsidiary features of the adjustment program of those
early years, I think, we need not go into here.
3788 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Early in 1936 the original Adjustment Act was invalidated by the
Supreme Court. Congress immediately adopted the Soil Conserva-
tion and Domestic Allotment Act, which in effect provided for, or
seemed to provide for, an indirect means of attaining somewhat the
same end as had been desired under the original Adjustment Act,,
namely, farmers were paid for shifting their acreage from so-called
soil-depleting crops to so-called soil-conserving crops.
A great many of the soil-depleting crops as defined by the Adjust-
ment Administrator included the staple crops or basic crops that
were the concern primarily of the first adjustment program.
However, this soil-conservation program proved to be quite ineffec-
tive in restraining large production. Serious droughts in 1936 held
the output of the staples down to relatively low levels. But in 1937
there were tremendous crops. The cotton crop in that year was, I
believe, the largest on record, with the consequence that prices tumbled
once again and farm income along with jjrices.
Early in 1938 Congress adopted the present Agricultural Adjust-
ment Act, which incorporates the so-called ever-normal-granary
scheme.
We can outline the general nature of the programs under this legis-
lation as follows :
First, the effort at soil conservation by means of withdrawing acre-
age from soil-depleting crops. Farmers continue to be paid benefits
for such performance.
Furthermore, farmers are offered loans. In fact, in certain cases
loans are made mandatory to enable them to hold, or have the Gov-
ernment hold for them, part of a current surplus of any of certain of
these staple crops, five in number, according to the 1938 Adjustment
Act.
These crops are held in storage with the hope that in a subsequent
season, a season of relatively short production, it will be possible to
release them at more satisfactory prices for the farmers than could
have been obtained if all of them had been sold in the year in which
they were produced.
Furthermore, under certain conditions of supply and compulsory
marketing, restrictions may be instituted for the five basic crops.
This, however, is subject to referenda among the interested farmers.
If one-third of the farmers voting disapprove of a compulsory limita-
tion or marketing of a particular crop in a certain season, then no
such control will obtain.
Furthermore, the act breaks new ground in developing a system of
crop insurance for wheat farmers.
It is this so-called agi-icultural-adjustment program that has been
most in the public eye in recent years. However, other important
measures have been in operation during the years, measures that are
not so much concerned M^th what we can call the commercial farmers
as they are with our noncommercial farming population.
I am thinking there, of course, of the Farm Security Administration
particularly— the rehabilitation loans, the tenant farm purchase pro-
gram, and the establishment of a limited number of cooperative farm
enterprises.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3789
Furthermore — and this, of course, lias received a good deal of pub-
licity quite recently — for some time the Government has been pur-
chasing considerable quantities of certain farm products for distribu-
tion among the low income of relief people. In the last few years this
has taken a new development in the form of the popular food-
stamp plan.
I should have mentioned a little earlier the very important programs
with regard to agricultural credit for many farmers hard pressed by
heavy mortgage debt.
The activities of the Farm Credit Administration in recent years
have been the most important kind of help by far that they have
received from the Government.
AGRICULTURAL PROGRAMS OF LITTLE BENEFIT TO AGRICULTURAL WAGE
WORKERS
Now, I have a few comments further in my statement on the impact
of the adjustment programs on certain elements of the farm population
in whom you are particularly interested, namely, agricultural wage
workers, croppers, and tenants.
First of all, we can say that tenants and sharecroppers have certainly
received few benefits from the adjustment programs. A good many of
them probably have been harmed by the direct or indirect impact of
these programs.
Agricultural laborers by and large, we can say, have received no
benefits at all. In fact, the incident of the adjustment programs has
actually worsened conditions for them, while other segments of our
wage-working population have received increasing guaranties, such as
measures intended to restrict working hours, miniinum guaranteed
wages, guaranties for collective bargaining, and the like.
The agricultural wage workers have received nothing of that sort.
There has been a tendency popularly to attribute a very large amount
of unemployment among agricultural workers — and here I include
sharecroppers and tenants in the South — to the agricultural program.
It seems to me that the story is not quite so simple as that. That is,
it is not possible to say that the adjustment progi'ams have led directly
to a large measure of unemployment.
There is no doubt that in a good many cases they have done so. But
by and large, I think, we can say that the great and growing difficulties
of farm workers, croppers, and tenants have been a consequence of the
onrush of farm mechanization.
However, the agricultural-adjustment programs certainly have con-
tributed to that mechanization and particularly in the cotton South.
It looks to me as if that has worked something like this : For one thing,
the benefit payments — cash payments made by the A. A. A. to land-
lords— ^have given them the means with which to buy all sorts of farm
machinery.
Furthermore, they have had a very real incentive to shift from a
sharecropper to a wage-laborer basis, and that is again by reason of
the A. A. A. benefit payments.
3790 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
If a planter has sharecroppers working liis land he must divide his
benefit payments with them. That is, they receive their proportionate
share of their contribution to the proceeds from the sale of the cotton.
Hence, here we have a very real incentive given to landlords to hire
these people by the day at so many dollars and cents and keep the whole
of these benefit payments for themselves.
Furthermore, we should note that in general, as the price of cotton
rises, there is a tendency, or has been a tendency for many years, for
landlords to shift from a cropper basis to a wage- worker basis, and the
reason for that is essentially the same as I have just outlined in con-
nection with the division of A. A. A. benefit payments.
So operating in this indirect way, at any rate, I think it can be said,
and not unfairly, that the adjustment programs have contributed very
considerably to growing unemployment or virtual unemployment and
particularly in the cotton South.
Now, a few comments with regard to the democratic character of
triple-A procedures, especially procedures in the field.
Certain exponents of these adjustment programs have made a great
deal of what they call the "farmers' democracy" — a farmers' democracy
which is the guiding hand in the application, and, in fact, in the gen-
eral operation of the programs.
This farmers' democracy is supposed to rest basically upon the local
committees — general county commitees of farmers, which committees
are concernecl in general with the various details of application of the
adjustment programs to their particular localities.
In the early years of the adjustment programs it is pretty clear that
a good many of these committees — certainly not all, but a good many
of them, especially in the South — were anything but representative of
all of the farmers in their particular localities.
A great many of the committeemen in those years were chosen by
county agents, and for rather obvious reasons these county agents were
very often inclined to pick as committeemen outstanding farmers or
the wealthier farmers in their communities.
Under the present regulation there is specific provision that the com-
mitteemen are to be elected by all of the participating farmers, and
I believe "farmer" in this case is defined so as to include sharecroppers
and tenants.
However, there is evidence — and I must admit it is rather scattered
evidence — that over a considerable area in the cotton South especially
the provision I just mentioned remains pretty much a dead letter.
It has been reported, for example, that in a good many counties
tenants and sharecroppers have never even heard of such a provision.
I might say here that it is unfortunate that we don't have more satis-
factory and more complete information on the matter of county com-
mittees under the triple A, their composition, and how they operate.
Then, finally, the prepared statement is concerned with certain broad
generalizations about the outlook for American agriculture in the next
few years or even in the next several decades.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3791
OUTLOOK FOR AGRICULTURE
We have already touched on that earlier. I think I have little more
to add on that point except that the present European war, of course,
has darkened the outlook still further. It is hard to conceive of a
restoration, even on a small scale, of our markets for cotton in European
countries or even for a sizable restoration of our markets for certain
other crops after the end of the war. That is chiefly because the in-
comes of the peoples in belligerent countries will be reduced, and the
further possibility, perhaps a probability even, that the spirit of eco-
nomic nationalism will be even stronger than it has been in the past.
I think it can be said that a number of alternatives confront usi
with respect to our agriculture and farm people. Either large num-
bers of them must sink into even deeper poverty or large numbers
must leave the farms, or there must be continuing and perhaps even
larger subsidies for our farm population.
I don't mean to pose these as completely separate alternatives. Life,
it seems to me, is not quite so simple. What we can expect, no doubt,
is something of each of these tendencies. There will be farmers who
find the going ever more difficult and will sink into deeper poverty.
Others will leave their farms and take jobs in towns and cities.
And I think in any case, no matter what the political complexion,
we can expect to see continued subsidies to our farmers. But it is in
the relative degree in which these alternatives develop that we can
expect to see some possible diiferences resulting from whatever farm
policy we apply in the coming years.
Unless our national income rises to considerably greater levels than
in the last 10 years or even in the 1920's, it is difficult to see how large
numbers of our farmers can escape very serious poverty short of much
greater subsidies than the Government has been prepared to offer so
far.
On the other hand, a marked rise in national income, primarily by
reason of increasing production of nonf arm industries, would open up
sizable opportunities for farm people to migrate from the rural regions
to the towns and cities.
At the same time such a rise in industrial production would do some-
thing, at least, to stinndate the domestic demand for a good many farm
products. Although liere, unfortunately, I think we would have to
admit that a rise in national income would tend to increase the demand
for fruits and vegetables and dairy products and certain nonstaple
products a good deal more than it would the demand for cotton and
wheat and possibly even corn-hog products or certain corn-hog prod-
ucts.
Now, some people see this as the most desirable solution for our
major farm difficulties. Others, however, insist that any great reduc-
tion of our farm population would be a national calamity. They in-
sist on that because they see certain fundamental social virtues in farm
life that are lost in the towns and cities. And their argument then,
when it is intelligently put, looks toward a continuing subsidization of
certain types of agriculture.
QyQ2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
I say when it is intelligently put to rule out arguments that say
any kind of a subsidy will do the trick, because obviously maintain-
ing people in agriculture on living levels that are below our notions
oAlecent living, or maintaining other kinds of people in agriculture,
as, for example, large-scale operators or operators of factory farms,
who obviously do not represent these alleged rural virtues, would
not obtain the end that is desired by this particular group of students
of farm problems.
What they would like to see is public measures designed to main-
tain what we call the "family farm" — the farm that is large enough
to provide a secure living for a single family but not too large to
enable them to manage the farm by themselves. A fundamental
part of that concept of family farm, of course, is ownership of the
farm property by the operating family.
In conclusion I would say tl\at our farm problem is pretty clearly
part and parcel of our national economic problem. That is, we
cannot properly separate the farm problem from the general problem
of producing more goods, providing more security for all of our
people. In the end our farmers will be saved either on the farms
or by giving them opportunities to go to towns and cities by what-
ever we can do to raise the general well-being of our people.
That concludes the summary of the statement.
Mr. Curtis. Mr. Schmidt, you spoke of the democratic processes
in the selection of county committees on the farm program.
At the present time the State committees are appointed by the
Secretary of Agriculture. Do you care to comment upon the propo-
sition as to whether or not that should be changed so that someone
back in the States, either the county committees or a committee of
them select the State committees ?
Mr. Schmidt. I am not prepared to discuss the details of proposed
changes in legislation with regard to farm county committees. I
would say, however, that it seems to me that legislative action is
likely to be little more than superficial for a thing of this kind.
That is, if what we are concerned with is truly a large measure
of democracy in the operation of these farm programs it seems to
me it must come about fundamentally in the same way we expect
it to develop in our general body politic.
I would say that economic security is an essential of political
democracy. Furthermore, obviously education must have a great
deal to do with a developing democracy, whether we are talking
about it generally or in terms of the farm programs.
Furthermore, we must not overlook the fact that many of these
difficulties, these apparent injustices in the working out of the agri-
cultural adjustment programs, are not really the responsibility of
that program per se.
The program has operated within a given system, a system which
includes such institutions as vicious forms of tenancy, exorbitant
farm credit practices, deep-seated social cleavages, especially in the
cotton South.
The adjustment administration could hardly be expected to go
very far in the course of a few years in doing much about difficulties
of tliat kind, difficulties that have been in the making for generations.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3793
FARMERS AS CONSUMERS OF INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTS
Mr. Curtis. This was not covered in your paper, but would you
say that farmers as a class are j^ood customers for our industrial
sections when they have the purchasing- power?
Mr. Schmidt. It certainly seems to me, judging by the evidence
in 1933 and 1934. The evidence in the form of sales of mail-order
houses and automobile sales and transportation in the rural regions,
bank deposits and the like, that is, as soon as they began to receive
their benefit payments in the adjustment programs, shows a very
rapid rise in business in those country districts.
Mr. Curtis. It is true, is it not, that over a period of years the
factory pay rolls in this country ran parallel with the farm income?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. And if there is an increase in the farm income there
is shown a corresponding increase in factory payrolls ?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir.
future of farm chemurgy
Mr. Curtis. Do you liave any comment to make upon the farm
chemurgy — the industrial use of farm products?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir. It is possible to foresee a day when a
^reat many commodities will find uses as raw materials for industry,
many more uses than they have at the present time. But we must
keep in mind that processes of this kind are generally very slow in
their development. There must be not only the technical research
necessary to finding new uses, but there must also be realization on
the part of industrial enterprises that a shift-over to such raw
materials is commercially feasible and desirable. It is a process that
must at best take a considerable time and must move quite slowly.
Mr. Curtis. For instance, there has been great scientific advance-
ment in using various plants and farm products in the making of
small articles such as the products of the DuPont Co. ?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. But it will recpire, as you say, a use of those to the
extent that mass production will be feasible.
Mr. Schmidt. Something vastly greater than that exists at the
present time. I would perhaps go even farther and say that although
such a development would certainly help we cannot expect that it
will go very far toward raising the demand for farm products suffi-
ciently to keep all the people we now have on tlie land — at any rate,
keep them on the land and using up-to-date technique.
Mr. Curtis. It is predicted at the present time that soon we will
have automobile bodies, particularly fenders and things of that sort,
made out of plastics made of soybeans.
If that comes about, and is extended to vehicle bodies and street-
-car bodies and the like, that may materially affect the supply of a^i-
cultural products, might it not?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes; it may do so. It is very hard to say. Of
course, however, it can go toward strengthening demand funda-
mentally.
3794 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
COSTS OF PRODUCTION
Mr, Curtis. Now, in reference to the dispensing of surplus products^
whether it be through a surphis-commodity corporation or whether
it be through the stamp plan or what-not, the products of labor so
dispensed are not required to be contributed at a lower price than
the ordinary price for similar labor, are they ?
Mr. Schmidt. Products of industrial labor?
Mr. Curtis. Perhaps my question is quite confusing. Assuming
that blankets are given away as surplus articles, the labor that goes
into the making of those blankets is based on a regular American
wage, is it not?
Mr. Schmidt. So I understand.
Mr. Curtis. Now, the food products that are distributed through
the stamp plan and under other similar plans are still produced at
the regular cost of production; is that not right?
Mr. Schmidt. That is very difficult to answer, because cost of pro-
duction is so varied, you know.
In agriculture we have a tremendous range of costs. There are
farmers who could make money, doubtless, at prices even lower than
those that have been prevailing in recent years or prices prevailing
during the depression. On the other hand, there are farmers in agri-
culture who could not break even if prices were twice as high as they
have been.
It is a little bit difficult to answer your question. In broad generali-
zation I would say that some of those products doubtless are being
purchased at prices that do not enable the farmers to live very well.
Mr. Curtis. Hogs are very low at the present time. A ITS-jwund
bacon hog out in my country will bring only $9. The American far-
rner is feeding probably a relief load with articles that at the present
time returns him less money than he can produce them for.
That is the point I am getting at. Maybe while we are moving
some of the surplus, yet we are moving it at a price that returns the
farmer his cost and that he is entitled to.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Sparkman. I would like to ask one question.
Mr. Schmidt, in your prepared statement you say that industrialism
has brought poverty and disguised unemployment to the farmers.
What do you mean by the term "disguised unemployment"?
disguised unemployment
Mr. Schmidt. I use it in rather a loose sense to refer to people living
on farms who appear to be occupied or who go through the motions of
work, at least now and then, but who really are not producing anything
significant. For example, young people backed up on farms who
would be migrating to the cities if there were jobs available for them.
They help around the place but really are not contributing any-
thing to the family income— anything consequential.
Another way of putting it is to say that our notions of unemploy-
ment, generally, are of an urban nature. We think of people on the
street m soup lines and that sort of thing.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3795
This term "virtual unemployment" or rather "disguised unemploy-
ment" is merely intended to refer to the people who are jobless in a
realistic sense, on our farms; who do manage to have a roof over their
heads perhaps, and something to eat, but who are contributing little, if
anything, to the national income.
Mr. Sparkman. In the concluding part of your statement you also
suggest that subsidies to agriculture may be desirable if we believe
there are inherent social values in farm life.
I wonder if you would elaborate a little on that ?
VALUE OF SUBSIDIZING FARM LIFE
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir. It can be argued after all that farm life
has certain inherent values, values not only for the farm people them-
selves, but for the whole Nation.
It is argued by some that farm life is liealthier in a physical sense
as well as moral sense ; that it is more stable socially ; that the relations
of people one to the other are more solid in agriculture.
Furthermore, it is argued by some that the difference in birth
rates between our rural population and our urban population should
make us concerned about maintaining a sizeable farm population.
There are very marked differences in those birth rates. An expert
of the Department of Agriculture estimates that 100 years from now
the descendants of our present rural population will have some-
where between 5 and 10 times as many descendants as our present
urban population.
Now, the point is that at least stability of population, perhaps
even a growing population, is of importance to national strength —
national virility — and that, therefore, public policy addressed to
the maintenance of a large or at any rate a sizeable rural population
is very important.
Mr. Parsons. When you say "a sizeable population," do you mean
by that we should have as large a farm population as possible, or
just what do you mean ?
Mr. Schmidt. I think there would be no difficulty in agreeing
that we should not have more people in agriculture than can be
miaintained on adequate living levels. Of course, there may be
some difference of opinion as to the meaning of "adequate living."
I would like to note here that there may be some elements of
living in the country on farms that are not measurable in material
terms, even less so in monetary terms, such as life in the out-of-
doors, at least to a larger extent than people in the cities can afford,
freedom from noise and dirt and from various ills of the large
metropolitan communities.
But, returning more specifically to your question: It can be said,
I think, that at the very most we don't want more people to stay on
the farms than can live satisfactorily there. That, of course, is
ultimately a question for those people themselves to determine,
whether they want to stay there or go elsewhere. Certainly it is not
for the professor or social worker or economist to say how many
should stay there or how many should go to the city.
260370 — 41 — pt. 9-
3796 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Parsons. Now, just one other question. You may have an-
swered this. If so, I did not catch it.
In your paper you say that early in the present administration
sufficient stimulation was not given to the consumption of farm
products. Is that still true or has it been changed ?
Mr. Schmidt. There has been a great stimulation, of course, by
the programs of the Department of Agriculture, most particularly
in the last few years in the form of the food-stamp plan.
I would say that it is possible to go still further in that direction
but probably not very much further.
The limits of that kind of program, after all, are set by the size
of the relief population, unless we are prepared to go beyond that
and to break into our ordinary commercial system of distributing
food products and other agricultural products.
Mr. Sparkman. That is all.
The Chairman. Dr. Schmidt, I do not know very much about
farming but as I read about it sometimes it has changed considerably
from the early days.
I have read that 85 percent of our people used to live on farms.
At that time the idea of corporate commercialized farming was not
known. Their object then was the raising of vegetables and suffi-
cient foods to support the family.
Now, we are down to about 25 percent, they tell me, or 30 percent.
My wife is of a family of 12. Her father raised those 12 children
on a farm. But from your paper, and from what you have said,
the prosperity of agriculture depends upon the rise and fall of our
consuming and purchasing power; does it not?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, agriculture does not stand out
there alone?
Mr. Schmidt. No, sir.
The Chairman. That is the way it is today anyway. It depends
upon the purchasing and the consuming power of the country, and
that is what I am getting up to in my question.
I read many times, too, that if our purchasing power — the consum-
ing power in this country — was normal, we could consume 90 percent
of the products of our farms and therefore would only have to
worry about the 10 percent which we hear so much about in foreign
trade; and, unquestionably. Doctor, we have got to give great
thought to that.
The way the war is going, and the way affairs are over in the old
country, we must give great thought to it.
I remember reading a column written by Arthur Brisbane before
he died. He used to repeat it. Maybe you can tell us about it. He
said that Texas alone, if extensively cultivated, could feed this Nation.
Do you think it could ?
Mr. Schmidt. I think we might envision such a possibility in the
very distant future, although it is true that certain students of that
sort of thing insist that even now with present technique — that is
with the most advanced farming technique — it would be possible for
two or three million farmers to produce as much, at least, as nearly
7,000,000 are producing today.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3797
The Chairman. Dr. Schmidt, you are ^v^itino• a book now entitled
*'The Last Seven Years of Agriculture."
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that why you are on leave from Columbia
University?
Mr. Schmidt. No, sir ; it is not.
The Chairman. When will that book be published, Doctor?
Mr. Schmidt. Early next year ; I think in February.
The Chairman. Is there anything else ?
Mr. Parsons. That is all. ^[
Mr. OsMERS. Nothing else.
The Chairman. Doctor, I want to thank you on behalf of the
committee for your very able presentation and your exceedingly val-
uable contribution that you have given us today.
Mr. Schmidt. I am very glad to have been of help.
The Chairman. Mr. Ferris.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN P. FERRIS, DIRECTOR, COMMERCE DEPART-
MENT OF THE TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY, KNOXVILLE,
TENN.
The Chairman. Mr. Ferris, vou are director of commerce depart-
ment of T. V. A. ?
Mr. Ferris. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. And what is your address ?
Mr. Ferris. Knoxville, Tenn.
The Chairman. And your headquarters are where ?
Mr. Ferris. Knoxville, Tenn.
The Chairman. Mr. Ferris, Congressman Sparkman of Alabama,
an expert himself on this subject you are going to discuss, will
interrogate you.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Ferris, your official title is director of com-
merce department of T. V. A. ; is it not ?
Mr. Ferris. That is true.
Mr Sparkman. I wonder if for the benefit of the record you will
state briefly your qualifications.
Mr. Ferris. I am a mechanical engineer. Most of my work has
been in industry. Until 8 years ago I was chief engineer of the Oil
Gear Co. in Milwaukee, Wis.
In 1932 I served as secretary of the business economics committee
of the executive council to the Governor of the State of Wisconsin.
Later I served as secretary to the land-use committee of that same
executive council.
That land-use executive committee, by the way, had to do with the
formulation of land-use plans, particularly in connection with
forest-land use.
The business economics committee made studies of the oppor-
tunities for local industry in the State of Wisconsin, based on the
utilization of the natural resources that occurred there.
For the last year and a half I have been occupied in my present
position, and prior to that for 2 years I was director of the agricul-
tural industries department of the Tennessee Valley Authority.
3798
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkman. At that time who was director of the commerce
department ?
Mr. Ferris. There was no commerce department of the T. V. A. at
that time.
Mr. Spark:man. In other words that department was formed and
you became the director of it?
Mr. Ferris. That is not quite correct. There was no commerce de-
partment at the time that I occupied the first described position. It
was formed at the time Mr. J. Hayden Aldridge resigned his
position with the Authority and took the appointment as Commis-
sioner on the Interstate Commerce Commission.
Then the two departments were merged into the present depart-
ment of which I am the director.
Mr. Sparkman. Now, you have presented us with a rather lengthy
and very full and valuable statement.
I don't suppose any one of us has read it in full. I have scanned
it. I have read the digest of it that has been presented. I shall
ask the chairman at this time if the statement may go into the record,,
as a part of Mr. Ferris' testimony.
The Chairman. The reporter will include it in the record.
(The statement referred to is as follows :)
STATEMENT OF .lOHN P. FERRIS, DIRECTOR, COMMERCE DEPARTMENT
OF T. V. A., KNOXVILLE, TENNESSEE
Relationship of the Tennessee Valley Altthority Pbogkam to the Interstate
Migration Problem
i. the migrant problem and its background
The dominant cause in the interstate migration of destitute citizens today, as
in other migrations of the past, is unquestionably the search for greater economic
opportunities.
Between present and past migrations, however, there is one important distinc-
tion. In an earlier period of our national history, industrial laborers from
Europe migrated to this country in search of the opportunity to earn a living.
The population of the Original Thirteen Colonies increased. People began mov-
ing westward. As the tempo of the industrial revolution quickened, and with
added immigration from Europe, this drive for new opportunities and economic
security in the lands west of the Alleghenies continued as the primary means by
which people could escape from the maladjustments of an industrial society still
little understood. For many years these migrations were of no critical signifi-
cance. Fertile lands in the West were abundant. Furthermore, the movement
of people to new lands was in general healthy and necessary to the development
of the Nation and to a rising standard of living. By the close of the nineteenth
century, however, the land and forest frontier had almost disappeared and most
of the lands suitable for cropping and grazing were settled and farmed.
Today, although the western land frontier has for some time practically ceased
to exist, the population of the Nation continues to increase at the rate of
approximately 1,000,000 persons per year. At the same time, the structure of
our industrial economy has not been adjusted to the point where each person
can be assured of an opportunity to earn a living. Insecure people have not
forgotten the pioneer tradition of migration in search of economic opportunity.
They migrate today essentially for the same reason that they did yesterday. The
principal difterence is that while they once migrated to" new and unoccupied
lands, they are now forced to move into areas which are already settled and
there compete with others who are also trying to make a living. Migration
which was once predominantly in a western direction to undeveloped lands has-
today become general interstate migration in a relatively closed land economy.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3799
The motivating force behind such movements continues to be that of a search for
economic opportunity.
The central problem is thus largely one of creating new economic opportuni-
ties within the existing area of the Nation and the political and social structure
of its economy. Only by providing greater economic security to citizens in all
parts of the Nation and a chance to share in the income standard of the
American way of life can excessive interstate migrations to prevented or even
substantially reduced.
THE tennessb:e valley area as a region of migrant origin
The committee no doubt will receive a great deal of evidence concerning the
conditions which have led the valley area, as well as the South as a whole, to
become a region of migrant origin. These conditions are summed up in the
following paragraphs extracted from the Tennessee Valley Authority manuscript
Regional Development in the Tennessee Valley :
"A variety of causes have been ascribed for the failure of the South and the
valley to adjust properly to its natural heritage and thus to attain higher stand-
ards of economic and social well-being. These include the interblended facts
of history and region, such as the tragedies of the reconstruction period, the
conditions surrounding the cotton economy, the special regional penalties result-
ing from national tariff policies, the lack of capital and credit within the region
to take advantage of technology and to promote balanced development, the long
persistence of a raw-material economy, special health and dietary problems, and
regional inequalities in rail freight rates.
"Perhaps outstanding among these facts has been the general nature of the
regional economy which has prevailed, and still largely remains, in the South
and in the valley. This economy is characterized by the shipment of the raw
materials of the land, the mine, and the forest out of the region to come back
into the region over tariff walls and costly transport cliannels — less in quantity
and higher in price as processed goods. 'The economy of the peasant, the
miner, the fisherman, the forester draws a certain minimum return, while
manufacturing, distribution, management, and finance furnish higher incomes.'
To support an increasing population, the extractive economy must make 'fresh
and continuous excursions' into its capital wealth — 1. e., its raw resources.
Overexploitation of resources follows without the accumulation of capital goods
to take their place. Obviously, this is not a stable basis even for the continuance
of the relatively low standard of living afforded by an extractive economy at its
best. In the valley, several major natural resources reached their peak of
exploitation about 1910. However, no provisions had been made for this even-
tuality. And like a business concern which refuses to recognize the depreciation
of its capital assets, the valley was, long before the depression gripped the
country in 1929, fighting for existence and opportunity to readjust. The dilemma
that eventually confronts a purely raw-material economy is of more than re-
gional consequence. Proper public services such as education cannot be sup-
ported on an adequate scale. Migration becomes pronounced, as birth rates
remain relatively high. Poor training and lack of education go along with the
migrating people, and the region's difficulties become a national problem. Too,
in a world of declining foreign markets, the decline of a region further aggra-
vates the market problems of a national economy. Assistance in the region's
readjustment is essential to stabilize the elements — commercial, financial, man-
ufactural- — of the national economy which the region was originally instrumental
in building up."
It is apparent from the above that the economy of the Tennessee Valley was
unable to support a rapid increase in population. There is ample evidence in
census statistics, however, that the Tennessee Valley has been an area of high
fertility rates. The average family of the region in 1930 had 4.6 persons, as
compared with a national average of 4.1 persons; there were 531 children under
5 years of age per 1,000 women of childbearing age (15-44) in the region,
against only 391 in the Nation.
It is inevitable, therefore, that the seven Tennessee Valley States during past
decades have been the source of a large migratoi-y stream of population. In
1930 the area was the birthplace of 4,190,000 persons who lived elsewhere in the
United States. As a partial offset, the area was, in the same year, the residence
QOQQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
of 950 000 persons Avho bad been born elsewhere. The net loss through migra-
tion therefore was 3,240,000 persons. In other words, for every person entering-
the area to establish residence, between 4 and 5 persons had moved away.
This migration slionld not be identified entirely with the migration of de.stitute
worliers with which the committee is now primarily concerned. The removal
was largely of employed and productive workers, who were able to see better
economic opportxmities in the North and East than they were able to see at
home For the most part they constituted a valuable addition to the regions
which were their destination, and their departure was a corresponding loss to
the Tennessee Valley region of their origin. Their leaving the region in such
large numbers, however, suggests that an unfavorable balance had existed be-
tween population and the economy of the region. Unless this condition is cor-
rected, the type of migrant which the committee is investigating will become
much more significant in the valley region than at present.
The principal population drain from the valley region has been to the in-
dustrial centers of the Midwest. During the economic depression of the early
1930's this outward movement was temporarily reversed — less because of
increased economic opportunities within the region than because of decreased
industrial employment elsewhere. A survey of 2,800 families in the Norris-
Reservoir area of Tennessee in 1934 showed that 8 percent had one or more
members who had returned home after formerly being employed elsewhere.
The number who had left and remained away was, of course, much larger but
could not be determined from the survey. The majority of the returned workers
had been employed in Knoxville and Michigan.
The above-mentioned survey is illustrative of the movement of rural people-
in the valley region to industrial centers. Another survey suggests a further
migration of urban industrial workers from the region. In 1937 the seven
valley States experienced net losses of 1 percent of workers covered by the
old-age-insurance provisions of the Social Security Act. In Mississippi the
net loss was 3 percent. It should be borne in mind that these migrants left
nonfarm jobs in the region for nonfarm jobs elsew'here. They are exclusive
of agricultural workers or destitute itinerants.
The removal of workers from the region has served to increase the burden
on the productive workers who remained. In the Tennessee Valley in 1930
there were 122 dependents (under 20 and 65 or over) for every 100 producers;
in the United States there were only 90 dependents for every 100 producers.
The combination of high fertility rates and migration of productive workers
has placed an extraordinary burden upon the producers who remain. The
relatively high proportion of children under 5 years of age in the valley States
has already been cited. Recent figures are available for the Southeast as a
whole which illustrate the pronounced regional differences in burden of care
of older people over the age of 64. While 57 percent of all available workers
of ages 15-64 in the United States are covered by the old-age-insurance provi-
sions of the Social Security Act, only 40 percent are so covered in the Southeast.
Of all employed workers in the United States, 72 percent are covered, com-
pared with 49 percent in the Southeast. A greater load for care of the very
young and the aged to be borne by people of the region is clearly indicated.
POTENTIALITIES AND UNBALANCED DEVEI.OPMENT OF THE TENNESSEE VALLEY WHS.
AND ITS KESOUECES
The inability of the valley area adequately to support its growing population
has not been due to a paucity of resources but to a failure to develop its
resources in the interests of a balanced economy. Responsibility for this
failure should not be laid to the population of the area ; the causes have deep
historical roots in which national and international factors played an im-
portant part. The region, like the South as a whole, was settled in the early
history of the Nation precisely because it had many potentialities inherent in
its natural environment. Its variety of climate, topographic and soil conditions,
and its abundant vegetation create great opportunity for the productive use of
its land resources.
The region is one of moderate temperature, as suggested by an annual mean
temperature of 59° F. Rainfall is abundant, with an average of about 52
Inches per year. In this resiwct the valley is representative of the South
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3801
generally, which contains approximately 50 percent of the Nation's area having
more than a 40-inch rainfall. The average frost-free growing season of more
than 206 clays per year is considerably longer than the national average. Wind
velocity is moderate. Such incidence of natural forces is important because
it creates the opportunity not only for good yields per acre but for the growth
of many crops not adapted to less fa^-orable conditions.
In their natural state soils in the valley were generally fertile. They were
deep, with friable topsoils, heavy clay subsoils, and the ability to retain mois-
ture. Although these soils, like most of the soils of the humid regions, are
deficient in phosphorus, calcium, and nitrogen, they are at least moderately
well supplied with most of the remaining major elements necessary for plant
growth. The 700 significant soil types and phases found within the valley and
the pattern of their distribution provide opportunity for diversity of produc-
tion, and thus establish the base for economic stability.
The valley's great abundance of natural forest vegetation was a heritage
of great value, and it played an important part in the development of the
region. Forest cover has served to retard soil erosion and water run-off, has
been a source of lumber and many other valuable wood products, and has pro-
vided fuel and construction material for the farm, food and shelter for wild-
life, and numerous chemical and cellulose byproducts. Further, rehabilitation
of forest resources and industries provides the means of increasing local in-
come, thereby creating a more decentralized and better-balanced economy.
In addition to favorable climate, potentially fertile soil and abundant natural
vegetation, the valley region has available substantial deposits of phosphate
and calcium. These mineral elements provide a prerequisite for the effective
development and oiieration of home farms on a permanent basis.
But while the Tennessee Valley region is highly endowed with natural ad-
vantages, it has become characterized by unbalanced development.
Of the 26,000,000 acres of forest which once covered the valley, only about
one-half of this acreage I'emains in timber, and that in a depleted condition.
This diminished forest resource is due not only to a reduction of forest area, but
also to a serious loss of productivity through exhaustive cutting and repeated
burning. About half of the forest area of the valley lies in Tennessee. In tliis
State the peak of lumber production occurred as recently as 1909, when Ten-
nessee led all other States by cutting more than a billion board feet of hard-
wood lumber, although the total area in forest was no greater than it is today.
Two-thirds of the present forest area in the valley is in trees smaller than saw-
timber size, and much of the young growth is defective. The remaining saw-
timber is being cut at a rate 30 percent greater than the annual growth incre-
ment.' This fact is significant in that it suggests a drastic readjustment in
wood-using industries and resulting social maladjustments, unless adequate
changes are made.
An average of 10,000 fires burn annually an area of some 700,000 acres of
the valley's forest.^ This represents about 5 percent of the total forest cover
and is equivalent to total burning every 20 years. Exclusive of the southern
States, approximately 90 percent of the Nation's forests receive fire protection,
as compared with 49 percent of the forest land in the valley States.^ Less
than 20 percent of the valley's forests now receive adequate protection from
fire.
Row-crop farming and the failure or inability to employ proper soil-conserva-
tion and land-use methods have in large part been the cause of land depletion.
For years farmers in the South have i>lauted their lands in cultivated cash
crops. It was in large part the cotton of the South which gave America her
international balance of trade with which to build the sinews of an industrial
system. But the soil was soon to pay dearly for this contribution. Surveys
conducted by the Authority indicate that the rate of soil and water loss in
the valley is rapid under the present conditions of land use and depleted
vegetal cover.' Nearly 7,000,000 acres of the 12,000,000 acres of cleared land
in the valley require special treatment. According to the best available data,.
1 Forestry Facts About the Tennessee Valley, p. 33.
= Forestry Facts About the Tennessee Valley, p. 14.
2 Forest Fire Statistics for the United States, 1938, prepared by the TJ. S. Forest Service^
* Forestry Facts About the Tennessee Valley, November 1938.
3802
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
at least 1,000,000 acres are so seriously eroded as to have become idle and
nonproductive; another 1,500,000 are seriously depleted by gullying and
sheet erosion; the remaining 4,500,000 acres are less seriously eroded but
require different use and management. The fact that about one-half of the
water which falls on the valley's watershed flows out of the river's mouth
suggests not only the hazard of floods but also the inefficient use of water
which might otherwise be utilized productively in the growth of plants and
animals.
Continued planting of cotton and corn in an area of high rainfall and mild
winters not only exposed the land to soil losses through erosion, but also to
the loss of essential plant nutrients in the soil. In an effort to compensate
for this drain on soil fertility, it became the custom for farmers to apply
large quantities of commercial fertilizers. These fertilizers, usually ordinary
superphosphates and mixed fertilizers, are, because of their low concentration,
so costly that farmers under existing income conditions are unable to purchase
adequate quantities to maintain properly the fertility of their soil.
In 1939 the average mixed fertilizer in the United States contained about
3.76 percent nitrogen, 9.08 percent P2O5, and 5.78 percent K2O, a total of 18.62
percent of plant nutrients.^ The average superphosphate used in the same
year contained about 19 percent P20'5. Fertilizers of such low analysis are
excessively expensive. Distribution costs, which include costs for sales and
office overhead, handling charges, bagging, manufacturer's profit, freight, taxes,
and dealer's profit, comprise more than 50 percent of the cost of plant nutrients
to the land. The following table shows the ineconomy of 19-percent super-
phosphate as compared with concentrated phosphatic fertilizers :
19 percent,
5H tons
48 percent,
2.08 tons
60 percent,
1% tons
Cost
$44.00
10.50
5.25
10.50
4.22
15. 75
1.32
7.96
$57. 50
4.16
2.08
4.16
4.07
6.24
.52
6.85
$57 50
3.32
Handling ($1 per ton)
1 66
3.32
Manufacturer's profit (6 percent above items)
3.95
Freight (."iS per ton)
5 00
Dealer's profit (8 percent delivery price)
6.54
99.50
85.58
81.70
Thus, while one ton of P2O5 obtained from a fertilizer of 19-percent concen-
tration is estimated to cost $99.50 at the point of delivery, from 48-percent
material it would cost $85.58, and from 60-percent material it would cost
only $81.70. On the basis of these price differences, a farmer with $100 to
invest in phosphate would get 2,000 pounds of P2O5 in 19-percent superphos-
phate; 2,355 pounds of P2O5 (or 18 percent more) in the 48-percent grade; and
2,447 pounds of P2O5 (or 22 i>ercent more) in the 60-percent type. The sav-
ings to the farmer which are inherent in the use of highly concentrated fer-
tilizers are especially important when incomes are low and needs for fertilizer
are great. In recent years farmers have been unable to pay the penalty of
using low-grade materials in the quantities required.
The fanners of the South have had to be content not only with high prices
for one of their principal needs, fertilizer, but also with a general condition
of relatively high prices for manufactured products and at the same time
an unstable market for the sale of farm products. Such factors as freight-
rate differentials and undeveloped water transportation have served to relegate
the South to the position of a raw materials-producing area and an importer
of higher-valued processed goods. The effect upon the soil of low receipts
and high costs has been to stimulate the farmer to plant more cash crops—
on his less productive land— in an effort to satisfy the minimum requirements
of his family.
-,,.0^ ^"u.^^^J of Plant Food Consumption in the United States in the Year Ended June 30,
1939. published by the National Fertilizer Association, d. 15.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3803
Population pressure is extremely high in the valley when measured on
the basis of either per capita farm area or per capita rui'al area. In the
Nation as a whole, there are 40 acres of land per capita if farm population
of the great western-range pasture is included, or 28 acres per capita if it is
excluded ; the valley has but 10.8 acres per capita of farm population.® In the
national economy, there are 22.4 acres of land per capita of rural population
if the western-range pasture is Included, or 16.3 acres if it is not ; the valley
has only 7.5 acres per capita of rural population.'
In 1930 the valley region had a substantially larger proportion of persons
under 20 years of age (47.4 percent) tlian the United States (38.8 percent).
In the Cumberland plateau counties of the region, more than one-half of the
population (51.4 percent) was under 20 years of age. For every 100 persons
of productive age (20-()4 years) there are 122 dependents (persons below
20 years and 65 years or above) in the valley counties, as compared with 90
for the United States. The average number of persons per family was 4.1 in
the United States and 4.6 in the valley — an equivalent of one-half person more
per family in the valley region.®
In 1930 the percentage of total population designated as rural population
was 76.8 in the valley as against 43.8 in the Nation as a whole." Population
in the valley is increasing at a rapid rate. In 1930 there were 531 children
under 5 years of age for every LOOK) women of childbearing age in the valley,
as compared with 391 for the United States and with the 368 estimated as
necessary to maintain a stationary population ; and in one portion of the
valley, the Cumberland plateau section, the number was 655 per 1,000, almost
double the national average.^"
All of the factors cited above have had a cumulative cause and effect rela-
tionship to regional living standards. That living conditions in the valley
region as a whole are poor, compared to those of the Nation, is evidenced by
the situation which exists with respect to housing facilities, health conditions,
educational standards, and income. These are examined briefly below.
Poor housing conditions are found In the Tennessee Valley, even in what are
customarily considered the more active and progressive centers. In Knoxville,
according to a real property inventory in 1939, a total of 2,428 or 9 percent of
all dwellings were classed as "unfit for use," yet 88 percent of this class of
unit was occupied. In the Tri-Cities of northern Alabama (the cities of Shef-
field, Florence, and Tuscumbia), according to a recent detailed field survey by
the Tennessee Valley Authority, nearly 28 percent of all family dwelling units
occupied by Negroes were classed as "poor." The average for all occupied
dwellings was more than 10 i)ercent.
The rural housing situation in the valley area is illustrated by Tennessee
Valley Authority surveys of I'eservoir families. In the reservoir areas, which
are reasonably representative of rural conditions in the valley as a whole,
box houses of two and three and four rooms were the rule, without running
water or sanitation facilities. A broader survey, conducted by the United States
Department of Agriculture in 1938, rated the condition of farm homes in Ala-
bama at 29, in Mi^^sissippi at 22, and Georgia at 81, as compared with a na-
tional average rating of farm homes at 44. Alabama and Mississippi farm
homes averaged 4.1 rooms, and Georgia farm homes averaged 4.4 rooms ; the
national average was 5.4 rooms. This differential is particularly significant
in view of the larger families in the South.
A further index of conditions is the fact that the average value of all
dwellings in the United States is approximately $3,788, whereas the value of
dwelling.s in the valley region is only $1,161." The value of farm dwellings
per farm throughout the Nation is about $1,126, as compared with $563 for
the valley.'^ In the country at large, 15.8 percent of farms are equipped with
piped water as against 3.7 percent for the valley counties."
* United States census, 1930.
7 Ibid.
» Alexander and Cedra, The Population of the Tennessee Valley (1937).
0 Ibid.
w Ibid.
" 1930 Population Census.
^ 1930 Census of Agriculture.
w Ibid.
2gQ^ • INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Standards of health in the valley region are low when measured on the
basis of certain important indices. The valley's mortality rates per 100,000
population are 7.6 from typhoid (and paratyphoid) fever and 79.4 from tuber-
culo.sis. as compared with national averages of 3.9 and 63.2, respectively.'
For each 100,000 population the valley has approximately 86 physicians and
25 dentists, as compared with 131 physicians and 54 dentists for the United
States as a whole.'' At the same time the number of general hospital beds
per 100,000 population is 120 for the valley as against 310 for the Nation as
a whole.'*
Conditions of nutrition in the Tennessee Valley region are suggested by the
average per capita consumption of essential food and feed products which are
consumed either directly by its human population or indirectly through farm
livestock. On the basis of the national average per capita consumption of
these products," valley consumption during 1934 was deficient to the extent
of 27 percent in white potatoes, 30 percent in hay, 45 percent in livestock, 77
percent in wheat, and 92 percent in oats, barley, and rye. Although conclu-
sive scientific studies have not been made to date, experts ttgree that the diet
of the valley is deficient not only in these essentials but in the consumption of
fresh fruits and vegetables as well. The valley consumes 25 percent more corn
and 244 percent more sweetpotatoes per capita of population than the Nation.
This element of monotony is perhaps explained as evidence of an intense
pres.sure to produce crops having the highest caloric content per acre.
Educational services in the valley are deficient when appraised in terms of the
■criteria of per capita expenditures for child education, libraries, and research and
extension in the land-grant colleges. In 1933-34 average expenditures per child
between the ages of 7 and 17 were $68.02 in the United States as a whole, and only
$23.85 in the valley counties.'^ School expenditures per capita of total population
ranged from $6.53 to $8.71 in the valley States compared with $15.33 for the
United States. School current expenditures per capita of pupils enrolled ranged
from $21.61 to $35.38 in the valley States, as compared with $67.88 for the
United States. On the other hand, schools in 1930 took 40.5 cents of the State and
local tax dollar in the seven valley States, while taking 38.5 cents of the State
and local tax dollar in the United States.
In 1934 the United States as a whole expended an average of .31 cents per capita
for library service, as compared with an expenditure of 17 cents, or about 55 per-
cent of this amount, by the valley States.'" Expenditures per capita of farm
population by land-grant colleges in the valley States are low when compared
with the expenditures of similar Institutions throughout the Nation."" In 1938.
while .$3.11 and $4.96 were average expenditures per farm for research and exten-
sion, respectively, only $1.28 and $3.60 were expended for these purposes in the
seven valley States. Thus, while the Nation as a whole invested an average of
$8.08 in research and demonstration, the valley States invested only $4.88. Defi-
cient expenditure for reseai'ch and extension within the valley is significant be-
cause it tends to limit both tlie quality and quantity of scientific information
available to farmers as a basis for improved land and forest management
techniques.
These conditions are critical. They are of a character and degree suggesting
the lack of economic opportunity through which their correction might be
achieved. This is reflected clearly in existing standards of real and money
income.
The per capita income in the valley region in 1938 was $237. or 46 percent of the
Tiational average of $515." In 1935 the valley States, although containing approx-
imately 30 percent of the farm population of the United States, received less than
14 percent of the total cash farm income.^^ In 1929 the gross value of farm
iMMtal Statistics Report of State Health Departments (average figures for 1931-.35).
15 Directory of American Medical Association (1934 figures), and Polli's Dental Register
(1928 figures).
" Directory of American Medical Association.
" United States Census data. Computation reflects production less exports divided by
jpopulation.
" Studies made by Department of Regional Studies.
i» Geograpliy of Reading, p. 72.
20 TTnited States Census.
=1 Computed from figures in Sales Management. April 19.S9.
22 United States Census and U. S. Department of Agriculture statistics.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3805
products per capita of farm population in the region wa.s $164 in contrast to $362
for the United States, or only 48 percent of the national average.
These tigures relating to fai-ni income are paralleled by those relating to income
from manufacturing. In 1937 the valley counties contained some 1.6 percent of
the Nation's wage earners, but received only 1.1 percent of wages paid — i. e., 68
percent as much per wage earner as the national average.-^ Even in those aspects
of manufacturing and processing most closely related to agriculture, the region
appears to be at a strong disadvantage. While specific data for the watershed
are imavailable, it appears that the valley States during 1929, having 20 percent
of the Nation's total population and 11 percent of its purchasing power, packed
only 2 percent of its meat and processed only 8 percent of its other food
products.-^
Economic opportunities have been frozen. The people of the valley have not
had the income whereby tliey might maintain or improve their standard of living
and security. Accordingly, many of them, and esijecially the productive workers,
have migrated to the industrial c-enters of the North. The problem of migration
from the valley area thus arises in large part from the historical lack of develoj)-
ment of the region's resources in the interests of a balanced economy and of lack
of provision for adequate and expanding economic opportunities for its citizens.
II. The Tennessee Valley Authority Program as a Mechanism fob the
Widening of Economic Opportunity
The conservation and development programs in the Tennessee Valley have a
dual relationship to population and economic opportunity. Incident to any pro-
gram of conservation there are population shifts as lands are taken out of their
traditional use, the income-producing capacity of these lands being temporarily
reduced or emerging through new channels. In the Tennessee Valley the conser-
vation program has displaced or will displace more persons from reservoir, forest,
and agricultural lands than the conservation program, taken alone, will employ.
In the Tennessee Valley, however, there is development as well as conservation.
Conservation itself is long-range development. There is a more immediate devel-
opment of new resources, new utilization of old resources, new industres, and new
occupations. These also are causing population shifts within the region. More-
over, they act as a brake on such migrations from the region as have been caused
in the past by the enforced severance of families from worn-out lands with no
alternate sources of livelihood locally available.
The Tennessee Valley Authority program is regional in scope, predicated on the
conviction that the valley possesses wealth in resources adequate to relieve i>opu-
lation pressure which unwise use of these resources has created in certain sections
of the area. The Authority believes that standards of living can be improved
through conservation of some resources and development of others. When this is
done, removals from the region will no longer be an evidence of the destitute
circumstances of its inhabitants. The region will be able to support its people.
However, the Authority's program, and that of the many cooperating agencies,
is not designed to freeze people to their present environment. Migration to new
economic frontiers is an essential part of democracy. A change in scene may
oi)en up new and better employment opportunities for the worker. It may permit
a better land use by relieving population pressure in the area of his origin. It
may permit a great development of economic potentialities in the area of his
destination. As the regional program of the Authority progresses it Is to be
hoped that internal population shifts of this type will voluntarily occur. It is to
be hoped that there will continue also a free flow of workers into, and out of, the
region.
The desired set of conditions is that which will freely permit and encourage
migrations that are to the economic benefit alike of migrants and the regions of
their origin and destination, and which will, on the other hand, make unnecessary
migrations from a region offering inadequate economic opportunities to other
regions where such opportunities are also inadequate. The obvious first step in
bringing about such a set of conditions is the fullest possible development of
23 Biennial Census of Manufacturers, 1937 ; and computations from census data made by
thp commerce department in Tennessee Valley Authority.
"* Computed from data contained in Census of Manufacturing and Census of Agriculture-
3806
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
resources in regions of migrant origin in tlie interest of providing fuller and wider
opportunities, and a rising standard of living, for their people. This, within the
geographical area of its activities, and likewise within the framework of demo-
cratic principles and processes, is the primary objective of the Tennessee Valley
Authority.
The major elements in the Authority's program may be summarized in terms of :
1. Activities directed to rebuilding the soil and stimulating agriculture.
2. Activities directed to encouragement of forestry development.
3. Activities designed to aid enterprise by providing new industrial processes
and facts concerning resources of the region and their possible uses.
4. Activities in establishing mass-consumption pricing policies in the sale of
electricity.
5. Activities relating to water control in the interests of flood control, naviga-
tion, and recreation.
In addition, apart from these activities directed to the economy of the region
and its people as a whole, the Authority's program has affected directly certain par-
ticular groups, as, for example, persons owning land acquired by Tennessee Valley
Authority for its improvements, and persons whom Tennessee Valley Authority-
employs.
1. Activities Directed to Rebuilding the Soil and Stimulating Agriculture
The principal problems facing southern agriculture — dependence on cash crops,,
use of low-grade fertilizers, erosion, and the gradual impoverishment of both
the soil and those who farm it — have already been described. The Tennessee
Valley Authority is, of course, only one of a number of agencies engaged in
seeking a solution to these problems. The Authority, however, has had a unique
contribution to make in this field, because to it has been entrusted custody of the
national laboratories at Muscle Shoals, which were constructed during the first
World War for the manufacture of nitrates for explosives. These plants have
been adopted by the Authority for use as a national laboratory in developing new
and improved forms of fertilizers.
NEW PLANT-FOOD MATEKIAXS
Several considerations suggested use of the facilities of Nitrate Plant No. 2
for the production of concentrated phosphatic fertilizers by the electric-furnace
method. The production of concentrated phosphates offered the best chance of
arriving at "new types" of fertilizers, of improving and cheapening fertilizers,
of establishing new fertilizer practices, and of preventing losses of soil and water,
in accordance with the specific provisions of section 5 of the Tennessee Valley
Authority Act. Natural rock phosphate was available in Tennessee, and the
electric-furnace method offered the possibility of utilizing ores of lower grade
than had been used previously. The equipment and facilities available at
Nitrate Plant No. 2 could be utilized to a considerable extent. Furthermore, the
production of elemental phosphorus at Nitrate Plant No. 2 would add another
national-defen.se value to the plant.
The first technical development undertaken centered around the production
of phosphoric acid by the electric-furnace method and the use of this acid in the
production of concentrated superphosphate. This material is sometimes called
"triple superphosphate" because it contains approximately 45 percent P2O5 (phos-
phoric acid), nearly three times the amount present in ordinary commercial super-
phosphate. The second important product developed was calcium metaphosphate,
containing more than 60 percent P2O5. A third important development now in
progress is that of fused-rock phosphate. Bach of these developments, while not
discussed at length in this statement, represents a definite step toward accom-
plishment of the objectives set forth in the Tennessee Valley Authority Act.
Detailed processes and costs are described in various technical journals.
TEST DEMONSTRATION OF NEW FERTILIZERS
It is not sufiicient merely to develop processes and produce new fertilizer ma-
terials. New products must be tested and the results of such tests demonstrated
through a sequence of stages sufficient to give reasonable assurance of their value,
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3307
effect, and best methods of use in a system of farm management which wiU
provide greater real and money income to tlie farm family.
The difficulties inherent in this program are well recognized both by technical
experts and by practical farmer.s. Particular fertilizer materials are effective
biochemically or are practical economically only on certain types of soils and
when used in certain farm-management systems. There are approximately 700
■different soil types and phases and some 15 significantly different types of farm-
ing in the Tennessee Valley region. Needless to say, the possible combinations
of these variables are numerous.
Preliminary scientific investigations with various new fertilizer products are
conducted on a small scale under relatively controlled and artificial conditions in
order to guide the further testing of such products under large scale, practical
conditions. These tests are conducted in cooperation with the several agricultural
experiment stations. They are conducted through a sequence of stages consisting
of: (1) tests involving no life, of chemical and physical properties, (2) tests
involving plant life, including the fungus, Neubauer, greenhouse pot, and experi-
mental plot tests, and (3) tests involving animal hfe, including tests with labora-
tory animals and large animals and human nutrition tests. While the Valley
States experiment stations have been most active in these investigations, ma-
terials are being supplied to any experiment station which desires to conduct such
studies. Already experiment stations in 46 States and in Hawaii and Puerto Rico
have conducted more than 25,000 scientific tests in their laboratories, greenhouses,
and fields.
But preliminary tests under the controlled conditions of the laboratory and the
experimental pot and plot are inadequate as a basis of conclusion for application
to the practical farm. The total farm, the only place where soils, plants land
animals, and the human family, are integrated into a complete psychobiological
unit, is the smallest unit which can form the basis of sound deduction as to
results from the use of new forms of fertilizer. This conception forms a working
hypothesis upon which the Authority's program of test-demonstration is built.
Another important hypothesis is that, while the entire farm is the smallest
basis for deduction, the entire community is the .smallest unit of interpretation.
Use of the entire community as a basis of interpretation makes possible the
measurement of the effect of economic factors.
A practical test-demonstration must embrace an entire farm handled as a
single operating unit subject to the impact of such variables as climate, manage-
ment, and economic factors. It must be planned so as to relate each of its enter-
prises (such as crop production, cattle raising, sheep raising, dairying, poultry
raising, pork production) properly one to the other and to the whole farm in
order to contribute the greatest good to the people whose livelihood it provides.
In a democratic society, the primary purpose of such demonstrations can most
effectively be to enable farmers to obtain information by their own efforts con-
cerning phosphatic materials applied in a practical system of farming, and to
furnish to the operators of other farms in the same community reliable informa-
tion and visual guides to action which might be helpful to them in planning
readjustments in their land-use and farming systems.
It is in connection with the program of farm-unit demonstrations that there is
demonstrated most effectively the method adopted by the Authority for assisting
established governmental agencies, landowners, farm organizations, and farmers,
to perform themselves the major part of the activities essential for achieving the
objective of wise use of land and its allied water resources. The essential steps
in the method are as follows :
(1) State committees made up of representatives of the technical departments
in the State land-grant college select counties in which test demonstrations can
be effectively conducted. The number and distribution of the counties is intended
to represent the principal soil types in the State, different types of farming, and
different sizes of farms.
(2) County agents, who serve as liaison officers between the agricultural experi-
ment stations and agricultural extension services, and farmers, call meetings of
local farm people for the purpose of explaining the opportunitv for participating
in the program of test-demonstration cooperatively established by the Authority
and the land-grant colleges. Most frequently, local farm people organize into
local soil-conservation or land-use associations.
OOQO INTERSTATE MIGRATION
(3) Community farm groups analyze the important problems affecting their
local situation. If they decide to participate in the program of test-demonstration,,
they develop a program of land-use adjustment designed to improve their particular
systems of soil use, fertilization, and cropping. Through the agency of committees
of their own members, the local groups select individual farms in their com-
munities, typical a« to practices, which might serve as places for testint:
adjustment programs.
(4) Farmers whose farms are selected for use as test-demonstration farms
agree in written memoranda to observe certain specified conditions in the-
conduct of the tests. In return for specified quantities of experimental ferti-
lizer supplied at cost of freight, they agree to: make their farms available;,
make necessary readjustments decided upon in agreement with neighbors and
the extension ' service ; provide necessary supplementary materials, such as
lime; provide labor necessary for carrying out the test; open their farms to
visits and study by neighbors, as well as i-epresentatives of the land-grant
college and the Authority ; and keep records of operations, including standard
books of account. Test-demonstration farmers agree with their community
committees and State college to carry out the program for a period of at
least 5 years. With certain exceptions they bear any increased cost due tO'
necessary changes in farm fencing and the purchase of additional equipment
and materials needed. They assume the financial risk involved in shifts in
crops, livestock, and fertilizer practices. Such risks they assume as a com-
munity service.
(5) The community groups hold meetings on the farms from time to time
to note results and discuss their application. In some counties farmers are
forming committees to inspect unit-demonstration farms for the si>ecific pur-
pose of passing upon the requests of individual farmers for extended agreements-
as demonstrators.
KKSUr.TS OF THE PROGRAM
Up to the present time the Authority has been concerned primarily with,
laying a basis for sound interpretation. Some impression of the effect of the
test-demonstration program may be obtained by reviewing the records of
operations over a period of 5 years of 100 test-demonstration farms in the-
Norris, Tenn., area. The 100 farms studied are representative of the common
kinds of farms with respect to size, soil composition, land use and type of
farming in the area. An average of seven tons of Tennessee Valley Authority
phosphate per farm was applied to the farms.
In analyses of the 100 farms, it has been assumed that the most significant
changes which take place on unit test-demonstration farms may be evaluated
in terms of what might be designated as a "ladder of progress," made up of
the four steps set forth below :
IMPROVED BIOLOGICAL ADJUSTMENTS
Stage 1. More vigorous growth of legumes and grasses treated with phos-
phatic fertilizers and such plant-food supplements as lime, as measured by :
(a) increased yield of hay per acre, (&) increased total production of hay,
and (r) increased ninnber of units of cattle, sheep, and horses.
Stage 2. Increased vigor of livestock consuming the treated legumes and
grasses, as measured by: (a) increased number of calves born in proportion
to the number of cows kept, (b) increased quantity of milk produced per cow,
and (c) increased receipts from cattle, sheep, and horses.
Stage 3. Increased yields and quality of crops following the treated legumes-
and grasses in the crop rotaion, as measured by: (a) increased yield of corn
per acre, and (ft) increased yield of wheat per acre.
IMPROVra) FARM MANAGEMENT
Stage 4. Changes in land use, especially shifting row crops to pasture and
hay, as measured by: (a) increased total acreage of hay, pasture, small grains,
winter legumes, and legumes and grasses turned under or left on the land,
(6) increased acreage of red clover and alfalfa, and (c) increased acreage of
barley and oats.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3809
Stage 5. Adjustments in kinds and numbers of livestock and livestock pro-
duction practices, as measured by: («) substantial increase in number of cows,
cattle, or sheep kept, (b) substantial increase in number of cattle sold or
changes In ages at which sold, (c) substantial decrease in number of hogs kept,
(d) establishment or great increase in size of a dairy enterprise, (e) shift from
natural to artificial brooding of chicks, and (f) decrease in the number of
market hogs sold.
IMPROVED FAMILY WELFARE
Stage 6. Increased security and well-being of the family or families living
on the farm, as measured by: (a) increased farm income, and (&) increased
total value of foods grown on the farm and consumed by the farm family.
IMPROVED COMMUNITY WELFARE
Stage 7. Increased security and well-being of the people of the neighborhood,
community, county, area, State, region, and Nation, as measured by such factors
as: (a) increased employment on the farm, and (&) Increased industrial
employment.
Applying the "ladder of progress" and the criteria of measurement indicated
in its various stages to the 100 test-deuKjnstration farms in the Norris sub-
region, it is indicated from carefully analyzed records that by December 31,
1939:
Eighty-three farms had reached stage 1.
Seventy-one had reached stages 1 and 2.
Fifty-two farms had reached stages 1, 2, and 3.
Thirty-seven farms had reached stages 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Thirty-three farms had reached stages 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.
Twenty farms had reached stages 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.
Nine farms had reached stages 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.
The full significance of this remarkable record of progress is revealed in
certain specific facts. On the 71 farms which showed greater vigor in live-
stock, there was an increase of 9 in the number of calves born per 100
cows. Of the 37 farms which showed improvement in land-use, acreage in
corn was reduced by 20 percent, acreage of legumes and grasses for hay and
pasture was increased by If) percent, acreage in winter cover crops was in-
creased by 26 percent, the number of cows kept was increased by 18 percent,
the number of calves raised was increased by 49 percent, the number of cattle
and calves bought was increased by 25 percent, and the quantities of dairy
products sold were increased by 15 percent.
Of the 20 farms which attained improved family welfare, cash farm income
increased from $389 to $705 per farm, or by more than 93 percent. This increase
was made in spite of lower prices in 1939 than in 1935 for 4 of the 5
major farm products sold, i. e., tobacco, poultry and eggs, dairy products,
and hogs, and higher prices for only 1 major product, i. e., beef cattle. That
increased family welfare tends to strengthen community welfare is suggested
by the fact that a large part of the increased spendable cash income on these
farms was used for improvements in farm homes, barns, and fences, and for
the purchase of machinery. There is evidence that the improved family welfare
of the Norris farms has increased industrial employment and al.so the demand
for labor on the farm.
The University of Tennessee recently conducted a study of changes in the
status of farm labor on 1,126 test-demonstration farms in the Tennessee River
watershed of the State of Tennessee."^ These farms represent a wide variety
of farming conditions. On a comparison of figures for 1935 and 1938. the
number of man-days of productive labor per farm increased by 1.2 percent
for the State as a whole. During this same period, the number of man-days
of productive labor per farm on the 1,126 test-demonstration farms increa.sed
by 3.7 percent, approximately 3 times the increase for the State. Despite
a decline of 11.5 percent in the price of all farm commodities, the 1,126 test-
demonstration farms increased their expenditure for hired and cropper labor
by 17 percent. Gross farm income increased by 11.1 percent, an increase
greater by 30.9 percent than the increase for the State as a whole.
* Report to the Tennessee Valley Authority by the Tennessee Extension Service.
3810
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Cotton farms have long been characterized by unstable and low-priced farm
labor The effect of the test-demonstration program on this type of farm
may "be appraised roughly by comparing the 1,126 farms, which represent
diverse types of farming conditions, with a group of 121 of these farms on which
cotton constitutes the principal cash crop. While the 1,126 farms showed an
average increase of 3.7 percent in productive man-work units, the 121 cotton
farms showed an increase of 5.1 percent. Despite a decline of almost 30
percent in the price of cotton, the 121 farms increased their expenditures
for hired and cropper labor by 1 percent. Gross farm income increased by
27 4 DGrccnt.
The scope of the program of test-demonstration is suggested by the fact that
at the close of the fiscal year 1940 there were 8,244 unit test farms in the
Tennessee Valley, covering 1,401,397 acres, and 14,866 area test farms covering
1828,296 acres. As of the same date, there were 7,573 unit test farms with
an acreage of 1,660,325 outside of the valley. Furthermore, to date, the Author-
ity has supplied the Agricultural Adjustment Administration with more than
200,000 tons of concentrated phosphate fertilizer for use in its educational
program of soil conservation.
Partly as a direct result of the research and test-demonstration program,
more than twice as much plant nutrient is now being returned to the land at
the same cost as would be possible under the usual fertilizer procedure. Not
only is the amount per unit cost of plant food returned to the soil increasing,
but the total amount is also rising. The Alabama Extension Service recently
surveyed 20 counties in central and southern Alabama, 10 of which contained
farms conducting test demonstrations with Tennessee Valley Authority triple
superphosphate on pastures and 10 of which did not. During the years 1987
and 1938, the counties in which demonstrations w^ith Tennessee Valley Au-
thority phosphates were conducted used 11,034 tons of phosphate on pastures,
while the other counties used only 857 tons. It is interesting to note that
of the 11,034 tons used in the demonstration counties, only 1,094 tons were
supplied by the Authority through the Extension Service and 869 tons through
the Agricultural Adjustment Administration. The remaining 9,071 tons were
supplied by the fertilizer industry.""
Thus, the test-demonstration program points the way toward identifying a
method which may be useful in formulating national policy aimed at increasing
economic opportunity on the farm and thereby decreasing the migration of
farm labor. The program tends to develop and verify a technique by which
individual farmers can contribute toward increasing the volume of productive
work requirements on the farm, increasing the demand for hired and cropper
labor, and increasing the remuneration of farm labor. Through the completely
democratic process of voluntary testing by individual farmers under arrange-
ments making the results available to the community at large, farmers are
encouraged to obtain and private industry to supply improved fertilizer prod-
ucts for use in conjunction with scientific land utilization programs. In this
way is promoted a balanced agricultural economy which in time can form the
basis of expanding opportunities for the region.
2. Activities Directed to Encouragement of Forestry Development
The Authority is providing assistance to landowners and others through its
program of testing and demonstrating improved methods of checking excessive
water run-off, soil erosion, and forest and wildlife depletion. This program
is concerned with increasing the production capacity and the protective value of
the soil and water resources associated with the valley's 13.500,000 acres of
forest land. It assumes the desirability of providing a protective watershed
cover which is also highly productive and therefore useful in increasing em-
ployment and income standards of the people of the region and in reducing
interstate migration of population. Accomplishments of the program may be
described in terms of: (1) reforestation for erosion and run-off control, (2)
forest fire control, (3) forest development, and f4) wildlife readjustment.
(1) The approach to the problem of reforestation for erosion and run-off
control is largely one of cooperation between individual landowners, on the one
2» Report to the Tennessee Valley Authority by the Alabama Extension Service.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3811
hand, and the State Extension Services and the Authority, on the other. The
State Extension Services coordinate the forestry and engineering worlv of
erosion control with farm development in such a manner as to meet the needs
and gain the active participation of the individual farmer. Under the "direct
cooperation" method, the landowner plants trees furnished by Tennessee Valley
Authority nurseries, furnishes needed materials, and does other work luider
such technical guidance as may be necessary from Tennessee Valley Authority
foresters and engineers and from the Extension Service personnel. Where
erosion control or demonstrations for erosion control are needed in the public
interest, and where the severity of erosion makes too great a labor problem
for the landowner alone, the Civilian Conservation Corps provides the necessary
labor force from 18 Tennessee Valley Authority-Civilian Conservation Corps
camps which are provided and administered by the United States Forest
Service. In such instances also the landowner contributes his own labor, use
of his teams and equipment, and local materials for fencing, site preparation,
and gully control.
Through these procedures significant accomplishments have been achieved
during the last 7 years. Approximately 110,000,000 trees have been planted
on privately owned and Tennessee Valley Authority lands; 62,433,000 of these
have been planted with Civilian Conservation Corps help on 41,000 eroding
acres on 5,700 valley farms; 11,192,000 of these have been planted on 9,900
acres in the valley by farmers themselves in 3,400 "direct cooperation" projects.
In order to be assured of a supply of trees for this work, the Authority
operates two large forest nurseries at Norris and at Muscle Shoals, which
together produce approximately 25,000,000 seedlings annually.
To date some 8,000 supplemental engineering projects have been completed
for gully control and about 540 water-disposal projects have been constructed
for terrace outlet control. In this, as in much of its reforestation work, the
Authority and cooperating State extension services furnish supervision, the
Civilian Conservation Corps provides labor, and private landowners supply
their own labor, use of teams and equipment, and local materials such as
fencing. The work is coordinated closely with agricultural development on
demonstration farms.
(2) The Authority's approach to the problem of forest-fire control has
been to cooperate through established Government agencies in promoting
public education for the prevention and control of fires. Since 1934, some
4009 educational motion-picture programs have been presented to more than
600,000 persons in hundreds of communities located in 87 counties in Virginia,
Tennessee, North Cai'olina, Georgia, Mississippi, and Alabama.
Tennessee Valley Authority-Civilian Conservation Corps camps have helped
to extinguish more than 1,300 forest fires in the past 7 years, and have given
assistance in the construction of 6 fire towers, several telephone lines, fire
breaks, truck trails, and similar improvements. With Civilian Conservation
Corps help, the Authority has provided assistance to cooperating States in
developing fire detection and communication systems and in strengthening
their organization for fire control.
(3) The Authority is laying the foundation for greater income to the people
of the valley through its cooperative activities and investigations directed
at forest development. Comprehensive surveys indicate tliat restoration of
forest resources of the valley and rehabilitation of its decadent forest indus-
tries are capable of increasing by 200 to 300 percent the amount of
local employment, business, and income now obtained from them. The pos-
sibilities are summarized in the following paragraphs extracted from a booklet
entitled "Forest and Human Welfare," published by the Tennessee Valley
Authority with the cooperation of land-grant colleges and universities, Depart-
ments of Con.servation and Forestry Divisions of Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky,
Mississippi, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia, the United States Forest
Service, the United States Biological Survey, the United States Bureau of
Fisheries, and other agencies:
"What are some reasonable possibilities of a sound forestry program in the
Tennessee Valley? * * *
"The estimates * * * show that under moderately good protection and
management the valley's saw-timber resource can l3e built up to 70,000,000,000
board feet. It is now only 22,000.000,000. Likewi.se, it appears that the cor-
260.370—41 — pt. 9 23
Q01 2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
responding reserve of smaller trees (cordwood) could be 112,000,000 instead
of 91,000,000 cords. .,,.,«•.•,
"The larger reserves would then be expected to yield indefinitely an annual
crop, based on current prices, of $130,000,000 worth of products for industrial
and farm use. Present annual production is valued at only about $53,000,000.
Yet, this lower output is removing saw-timber-sized trees faster than they
are growing back.
"Care of the improved forest, harvesting, and processing products would invite
the equivalent of some 100,000 full-time jobs. Employment is now less than 70,000.
"These are not mere possibilities. They are certain to come about in a few
decades if we but give forests good protection and management. With such
attention, average woodland of the valley builds up a substantial growing stock
and begins to yield well of valuable saw timber in 20 to 30 years. Meanwhile,
management calls for cuttings of fuel wood, fence posts, and pulpwood, which
produce income as they improve the forest."
In addition to increased employment and business which can be secured directly
as a result of increased forest yields, rehabilitation of the valley's forest and re-
lated wildlife resource provides attractive opportunities for increasing local in-
come through the development of recreation facilities. Furthermore, forest
industries rank high among potential users of water transportation and electric
power.
To assist in achieving these ends, the Authority has conducted important forest
economic investigations in cooperation with the United States Forest Service and
other Government and quasi-public agencies on matters relating to : The extent,
condition, and location of forest resources ; marketing and utilization of forest
products; long-range planning for determining the effects of various types of
ownership of forest lands on land-use economy ; possibilities of cooperative forest
mana^^ement and protection; and readjustment and development of wood-using
industries. Silvicultural and forest-management studies are being conducted to
provide information on (a) the efficiency of various land-use measures and vege-
tal covers for water and erosion control, and (b) improved methods of forest
management.
Forest-tree crop investigations are being conducted in order to discover, develop,
and test superior strains of trees which may provide increased sources of income
when used for reforestation or erosion control. More than 1,000.000 trees of spe-
cial seedling stock have been gro^ai for experimental use in the Authority's re-
forestation, erosion control, and wildlife development programs ; in addition,
82,500 trees have been used as grafted or budded stock, or as cuttings for experi-
mental and demonstration purposes. The Authority's arboretum of selected trees
is probably the most comprehensive collection of species of this type in the United
States. It contains more than 300 varieties. In the development of tree-crop si^e-
cies or varieties for general use on the farm, more than 1,100 kinds have been
investigated, and many of these have been selected for further study and testing.
Studies to date include superior varieties of black walnut, northern pecan, blight-
resistant chestnut, persimmon, thornless honey locust, and several select varieties
of black locust.
Demonstration tests of a tree's practical value and adaptability are made under
actual farm conditions through the cooperation of interested landowners selected
by the Extension Services. Certain investigations are being conducted cooper-
atively with the Soil Conservation Sei-vice and the Federal Bureau of Plant
Industry.
Cooperative test plots have been establishd at Blacksburg, Va., and Raleigh,
N. C, in order to test the beneficial effect of widely spaced honey locust trees on
grass production and the carrying capacity of pastures. These tests are designed
to determine whether honey locust can be economically used for pasture shade and
forage production. Other investigations are being conducted in order to determine
the feed value of honey-locust pods. Several species of shrubs and ground-cover
plants are under test and observation in order to determine their soil-holding
value when used in roadbanks, gullies, and ditches. Other tree and shrub species
are being tested as a source of wildlife food.
(4) Wildlife readjustment is being promoted by the Authority principally to
correct maladjustments caused by Tennessee Valley Authority reservoir impound-
ments. It is the incidental ^aim of this program to achieve a better balanced
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3813
wildlife in the region, with resulting increases in income, food, and recreation
from fish, fur, and game resources.
Two fish hatcheries and several rearing ponds now operated cooperatively by
the United States Fish and Wildlife Service have been constructed by the Au-
thority in order to rehabilitate the fish and game resources of the valley. A
current creel census of Tennessee Valley Authority waters indicates that the
recreational value of fish resources is great, and that the value of the rough fish
taken for table use and for the market is substantial. More than 450,000 fisher-
man-days were recorded on Tennessee Valley Authority reservoirs in Alabama
during March, April, and May, 1940 ; some 57,000 fisherman-days were recorded
on Norris Reservoir during the month of June 1940. It requires little imagina-
tion to translate these data into new income of significant consequence for the
residents and business enterprises of the area. Studies conducted by the Au-
thority indicate that a balanced development of wildlife will furnish substantial
income to the people of the valley and thereby also serve to reduce migration to
other areas of the Nation.
3. Activities Designed to Aid Enterprise by Providing New Industrial Processes
and Facts Concerning Resources of the Region and Their Possible Uses
Migrant workers have left certain regions because the resource base for new
enterprise has been lacking or has been used up. Examples in the Tennessee
Valley already cited have been the depletion of hardwood forests in some areas
and loss of productivity of the soil in other areas through erosion and improper
cropping practices. The Authority's programs of reforestation and soil conser-
vation are helping to build back these resources. But compared with other re-
gions, the Tennessee Valley still has an abundance and variety of raw materials
and sources of energy for industry.
What is srill needed is a way to convert these resources into productive jobs.
The transfer of existing manufacturing establishments from one area to another
is not the solution from the point of view of the Nation as a whole, since this
will help one area at the expense of another.
New manufacturing opportunities must be created and the birthplace for
such enterprises in the laboratory. Research activities are underway in the
Tennessee Valley which are designed to aid enterprise by providing new indus-
trial processes and facts concerning resources of the region and their possible
uses. Appropriate steps are being taken to enable business to visualize and take
advantage of new opportunities.
The following examples of research conducted by the Tennessee Valley Author-
ity, in cooperation with other agencies, are illustrative of the work which it
performs in this connection.
QXnCK FREEZING AS A NEW RURAL INDUSTRY
The immersion quick-freezing system, which was developed by the Authority
in cooperation with the University of Tennessee Engineering Experiment Station,
has reached the stage of commercial application. Chickamauga Producers, Inc.,
a farm cooperative, has leased the experimental freezing plant at Cleveland,
Tenn., and in the spring of 1940 produced and sold approximately 285,000 pounds
of strawberries and peas, of which 115,000 pounds were quick frozen and the
others cold packed. Through the operation of this plant it was possible to pay
the strawberry growers a premium price for their strawberries notwithstanding
adverse weather conditions. In addition, apiwoximately 20O girls and a few
men were employed in the new processing plant.
Processing plants such as this can double the income of an area from products
so processed. The cost sheet for the above strawberry-freezing operation shows
that people in the area received for labor, supplies, and raw materials twice the
amounts wliich would have been obtained from the sale of their strawberries
at prevailing fresh market prices. If crops are sold on the fresh market, they
must be disposed of immediately at spot market prices. Often these prices
are so low that it does not pay the farmer to harvest all of the crop. A proc-
essing plant means an assured market for quality products, employment for
3814
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
people of the area, and additional income from the sale of supplies and materials
when these are available locally.
A quick-freezing plant can be operated to freeze various products 8 months out
of the year, dravping on a permanent rather than on a seasonal and, to a large
extent, migrant labor supply.
IMPROVING PRESENT EURAL INDUSTRIES BY RESEIARCH
Engineers in the past have worked on problems of urban industry rather than
those of the rural area, which are equally in need of the help of modern
research.
For example, the cottonseed-crushing industry, whose products are worth
$300,000,000 annually, has in the past operated by rule-of-thumb methods. En-
gineering research and technical control have been lacking. The present possi-
bilities for a research program to achieve significant results in a case of this
kind are large precisely because of neglect in the past. To illustrate, the
University of Tennessee Engineering Experiment Station initiated a study of the
cottonseed-cooking process. With Tennessee Valley Authority help a new type
of pressure cooker was developed and operated in connection with full-size com-
mercial press-room equipment. Results convinced mill operators who sent their
seed in to be processed that greater oil recovery and other advantages would
pay for the new equipment in one or two seasons' operation. If all of the
industry adopts the new method, savings would amount to $3,000,000 per year.
Three cottonseed mill machinery companies are now making and installing this
type of equipment under a license arrangement, under which income from fees
will be applied to further research.
With value added to the oil and other products of the cotton plant, less
dependence need be placed by the farmer on the price of cotton filler. The new
equipment, by improving the product and simplyfying operation, strengthens the
position of the small rural mill, thus ensuring continued employment where most
needed.
A number of other projects are at various stages of exi)erimental development.
One of these is the development of flax as a new southern crop to give fiber and
linseed oil. Resulting diversification would lessen dependence upon cotton. An-
other promising project relates to a more widespread southern resource than
cotton, namely, wood. New uses for waste products and cull timlier are being
sought. In addition to new uses as a building and insulating material, wood
can furnish automatic heat for homes and fuel for internal combustion engines
for farm use. In many low incomes areas of the Tennessee Valley, second-growth
timber is the only raw-material resource on which to build new industry.
NETVV MINERAL RESOURCE DEVHLOPJIENTS
How private initiative can make the results of public research the basis for
new industry is illustrated in the field of mineral research. Vermiculite. a
material similar to mica which exfoliates about 10 times its original volume when
heated, has been coming into use as a thermal and acoustical insulating ma-
terial. Its light weight and insulating properties make it a desirable material
in building construction. Interest in the North Carolina deposits of the mineral
resulted largely from a field survey and experimental work by the Authority.
But the utilization of this research was due to three companies which proceeded
to produce the material. Increasing uses for it promise to lead to expansion
into a sizeable industry, giving employment to people of the valley area. One
mining operator is producing it for lightweight concrete.
Kaolin, olivine, talc, and mica are other lesser krown minerals for which Ten-
nessee Valley Authority technicians have discovered new uses offering opportuni-
ties for economic expansion.
INDUSTRIAL ECONOMIC RESEARCH
In addition to the long-time research approach to the problem of industrial
growth in low income areas, the Authority has other channels for enabling busi-
ness leaders to visualize and take advantage of new opportunities for local
industry based on utilization of the region's resources.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3815
During its 7 years of operation, the Authority has built up a body of facts and
economic data about the resources of the area in their relation to transportation,
electric power, and markets. This information is available to business leaders
interested in local development.
GENERAL ECONOMICS EESEAKCH
Closely akin to Tennessee Valley Authority research designed to assist enter-
prise in the development of new resources are other research activities conducted
by the Authority to determine basic facts in connection with the relationship of
the region's economic development to that of the country as a whole.
To obtain a better understanding of the factors responsible for the South's long-
continued depression, the Authority in its very earliest days gathered a staff to
study and report on conditions which hinder the region's full economic develop-
ment. Largely because of this activity, a major southern transportation handi-
cap, long known to many traffic men, but not fully understood by the public, was
brought to the attention of Congress and the public, and the machinery for its
removal has already been created and set in motion.
In the Southeast, the ma.ior source of employment has long been an agriculture
devoted to the production of what have in recent years come to be surplus com-
modities— cotton, tobacco, and corn are the leading examples. Because of the
great surplus of rural iwpulation, both farm income and urban wages in the
Southeast are lower than those elsewhere. Such a situation in conjunction with
other genuine southern advantages, such as mild climate, low-cost fuel and power,
low rents and taxes, and abundance of raw materials, should normally result in a
large industrial development continuing to the point where the surplus population
was absorbed and the region's level of income had risen to that prevailing in other
parts of the United States. To a limited extent such a natural adjustment has
actually taken place. In seeking the reasons for its not having taken place on
a sufficient scale, students of the region have long suspected that artificial barriers
stood in the way.
As Tennessee Valley Authority transportation economics research presently
developed, a high artificial barrier does hamper development, in the form of
railway freight rates, w^hich discourages the manufacture of high-class goods in
the South. A Tennessee Valley report, the Interterritorial Freight Rate Problem
of the United States, sent to Congress in ]May 1937 and published as House
Document No. 204, Seventy-fifth Congress, first session, showed the precise amount
of discrimination and brought the issue squarely into public notice and under-
standing. The report revealed two highly significant facts. First, the South
and the other great raw-materials regions suffer severely under the rate handi-
caps. Second, the discrimination against the South is without justification,
because the cost to the railroads of rendering freight-transportation service is
on the average no higher in the Southeast than in the Northeast. The reiwrt has
been recognized as an authoritative document on the interregional rate situation.
In the same month that the Tennessee Valley Authority report was published,
the governors of eight southern States asked the Interstate Commerce Commis-
sion for lower rates on a number of manufactured products in movement from
the Southeast to the Northeast. In February 1939 a second Tennessee Valley
Authority report. Supplemental Phases of the Interterritorial Freight Rate Prob-
lem (subsequently published as H. Doc. No. 271, 76th Cong., 1st sess.), was sent to
the President. The major points it adds to information on the subject are that
discrimination against the South and other raw-materials regions grew even
greater under the 1938 uniform 10-percenl rise in most freight rates throughout
the country, and that a large part of eastern Canada enjoys cheaper transporta-
tion arrangements with the northeastern United States than do the southeastern
States, in spite of the lower costs of operating railroads in the Southeast than
in Canada.
In the summer of 1939 the Interstate Commerce Commission announced that
it would undertake an investigation of class rates in all the territory ea.st of
the Rocky Mountains — a proceeding which is now in the preliminary stages.
In November 1039 the Southern Governors' case was decided by the Commission.
Its decision resulted in the establishment of rates on a few types of manufactured
goods between the Southeast and the Northeast on the same level as prevails
in the Northeast. The decision did not affect, however, a multitude of class rates
not considered in this particular decision.
3816
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Under new legislation enacted in October 1940, the existing legal definition of
discrimination is apparently extended so as to apply to unjust discrimination,
as between regions. The final outcome, for the South, now depends on the Inter-
state Commerce Commission's findings in the pending investigation on the ques-
tion of whether existing discriminations are justified by regional differences in
the cost of conducting the business of freight transportation.
While the precise effect is beyond the realm of measurement, it is clear that
the scheme of discriminatory regionalized freight rates tends to perpetuate the
conditions which have retarded southern industrial development. It is, there-
fore, responsible in part for the continuing migration of southerners into northern
industrial districts. In the measure that the Southeast is afforded relief by
these pending proceedings which will make possible a greater industrial develop-
ment in the region, to that extent will the existing pressure toward migration
give way to the attractions of increased opportunity at home.
4. Activities in Establishing Mass-Consumption Pricing Policies in the Sale
of Electricity
It is today almost universally recognized that expanding production and dis-
tribution of the products of industry, together with the rising standard of living
in which such expansion results, depends upon an almost constant lowering
of prices. Large-scale production made possible by substantial price reductions
over a period of years is exemplified by the automobile, radio, refrigerator, and
numerous other industries.
Competition exerts in most industries a strong pull in the direction of the
price-reduction policies which are essential to increasing consumption. "Where
monopoly exists, on the other hand, the incentive to reduce prices is slight, since
adequate profits may be realized by maintaining prices at an artificial level
without seeking an increased volume of production and sales. Public regulation,
in the case of legal monopolies such as electric utilities, has failed to supply the
urge which is needed.
To the extent, therefore, that governmental activity can assist in restoring
vitality to pricing policies in the electrical utility industry or other legally
monopolized fields, it is in effect helping to bring about industrial expansion,
not only in the electrical industry itself but also in other industries whose costs —
and prices — are determined to any extent by the amounts they pay for electricity
which they use in the industrial process.
This is the basis of the Tennessee Valley Authority's electric power program.
In September 1933 the Authority announced the schedule of resale rates which
were to be included in its contracts with wholesale customers. These rates
represented a drastic reduction in electricity prices — as much as 50 percent of
the existing level of private rates in some instances. The purpose of the
Tennessee Valley Authority promotional rate schedules was to match mass
production by m'ass consumption. The results have more than justified expec-
tations.
CONSUMER SAVINGS
As of August 1, 1940, the savings resulting from the application of Tennessee
Valley Authority resale rates to customers served by the Authority's distribu-
tors totaled $9,100,000. This total was distributed 86 percent to residential
customers, 35 percent to commercial customers, 26 percent to industrial users,
and the balance, 3 percent, to municipal street-lighting customers.
The Authority's contract with its wholesale distributors provides that all
earnings which remain after the payment of operating expenses, depreciation,
taxes, interest, and other fixed obligations, may be used for system expansion,
for the retirement of the bonded indebtedness prior to maturity date, or for
further reductions in rates. At present the first two alternatives account for
most of the distributors' surplus earnings. As debts are reduced and systems
expanded toward the limit of economic feasibility, the principal means of dis-
posing of surplus earnings will be in further rate reductions. Already two
distributors, the Alcorn County Association and the city of Tupelo, in Missis-
sippi, have reduced their rates below the basic Tennessee Valley Authority
level.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
3817
INCREASED USE OF ELECTRICITY
In the years between 1934 and 1940 the Authority was engaged in acquiring
an integrated market area in which it could dispose of its surplus power.
During the period that this market area was being developed, average use
statistics are distorted somewhat by the acquisition of properties having a
lower or higher average use than that prevailing on the Authority's system
at the date of acquisition. It can be said, liowever, tliat the average use of
residential customers served by Tennessee Valley Authority contractors has
always been considerably higher than the national average. The average resi-
dential rate has been much lower than the national average. For the 12 months
ending August 1940 the average use in the Nation was 934 kilowatt-hours, and
the average rate 3.89 cents per kilowatt-hour. In the same period, the average
residential use of customers served from the Tennessee Valley Authority system
was 1,389 kilowatt-hours, and the average rate 2.10 cents per kilowatt-hour.
Thus, the average use in the Tennessee Valley Authority area was 49 percent
higher than that prevailing in the Nation, while the average rate was 46
l>ercent lower.
EFFECT OF TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY RATES ON RATES, SALES, AND ElARNINGS OF
PRIVATE COMPANIES IN THE AREA
The announcement of Tennessee Valley Authority's promotional rate schedule
led private companies in the area to reduce their rates substantially. Thus,
between 1932 and 1939, the average residential rate for the country as a whole
decreased 28 percent. The percentage reduction for the Alabama Power Co.
during the same period was 42 percent ; that for the Georgia Power Co. was
46 percent; and that for the Tennessee Electric Power Co. (from 1932 to 1938)
was 55 percent.
These reductions in rates were accompanied by huge increases in use by
the companies' customers. Between 1932 and 1939 average use of the Alabama
Power Co. and Georgia Power Co. increased 77 percent and 80 percent, respec-
tively, compared with a 49-percent increase for the Nation. The Tennessee
Electric Power Co. reported an increase of 147 percent between 1932 and 1938.
The effect of the companies' lowered rates upon consumption of electricity is
clearly shown by the following table :
Comparative data on average residential consumption and date
Average kilowatt-hour per customer:
Alabama Power Co
Georgia Power Co
Tennessee Electric Power Co
United States
Average rate per kilowatt-hour:
Alabama Power Co
Georgia Power Co
Tennessee Electric Power Co.__
United States -
532
543
Cents
5.05
5.77
6.44
6.00
765
766
576
578
Cents
4.88
5.42
6.20
5.74
798
803
591
597
Cents
4.79
5.29
6.13
5.57
Cents
4.62
5.16
5.77
5.49
871
885
774
624
Cents
3.84
4.00
4.13
5.30
672
Cents
3.54
3.63
3.63
4.99
1,176
727
Cents
3.20
3.37
3.13
4.65
1,289
1,313
1,353
793
Cents
2.97
3.04
2.86
4.39
1,399
1,461
845
Cents
2.85
2.93
2.75
4.21
Cents
2.76
2.84
Note.— Figures for the Tennessee Electric Power Co., include farm and rural customers; figures for the
United States and for the other companies represent urban residential service.
It is an interesting fact that this combination of lowered rates and increased
consumption resulted in greater earnings to the companies concerned.
A comparison of income statements for the Commonwealth & Southern Cor-
poration and its principal southern subsidiaries, reveals that during the year
ended December 31, 1939, gross earnings were substantially in excess of those
reported for the same period in 1932. Gross earnings for the Commonwealth
& Southern Corporation itself were 23 percent higher for 1939 than 1932; for
the Alabama Power Co., 42 percent higher; for the Georgia Power Co., 40
3818
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
percent higher; for the Mississippi Power Co., 23 percent Jiigher ; and for the
Tennessee Electric Power Co., 43 percent higher, (in 1938).
For all of the subsidiary companies, operating expenses, maintenance, and
taxes during the last calendar year of operation have exceeded by large amounts
the .same expenses for 1932. These increases ranged from 81 percent for the
Tennessee Electric Power Co. in 1938 to 16 percent for the Mississippi Power
Co in 1939 Even more sustantial increases are noted in the retirement reserve
allowance For the Commonwealth & Southern Corporation, the provision for re-
tirement increased 70.5 percent between 1932 and 1939. The percentage increase
for the Alabama Power Co. was 179.1 percent ; for the Georgia Power Co., 145.5
percent; and for the Mississippi Power Co., 282.5 percent. Between 1932 and
1938, the retirement provision for the Tennessee Electric Power Co. remained
unchanged from year to year.
In spite of these enormous increases in operating expenses, all of the com-
panies except the Georgia Power Co. have shown increases in net income over
1932 The net income for the Commonwealth & Southern Corporation for 1939,
which did not include any income from the Tennessee Electric Power Co., was
1.3 percent higher than the 1932 figure. Other companies showed the follow-
ing percentage increases in net income. Alabama Power Co., 19.2 percent ;
Mississippi Power Co., 156 percent ; and Tennessee Electric Power Co., 15.6 per-
cent (increase in 1938 over 1932). The Georgia Power Co.'s net income in 1939
was $788,429 lower than in 1932. This 13.7-percent reduction in net income
was due in large part to an increase of $1,920,000 in the provision for retirement.
The net income of all of these companies dropped to 1932-39 lows in 1934, and
the percentage increases between the latter year and 1939 are therefore even
greater than those between 1932 and 1939.
The 1932-39 figures are summarized in the following table :
Condensed comparative income statements Commonwealth and Southern Cor-
poration and principal southern subsidiaries
Commonwealth & Southern Cor
poration:
1932
1939
Percent increase
Alabama Power Co.:
1932
1939
Percent increase
Georgia Power Co.:
1932
1939
Percent increase
Mississippi Power Co.:
1932
1939
Percent increase
Tennessee Electric Power Co.:
1932
1938
Percent increase
Gross
earnings
513,921
868. 041
23.0
102, 809
41.8
416, 127
451, 738
40.3
996, 321
671,961
22.6
743, 675
. 734, 440
42.5
Operating
expenses,
mainte-
nance, and
taxes
, 879, 533
, 509, 413
43.6
, 563, 750
, 513, 270
60.2
, 580, 925
, 608, 892
73.4
,965,351
, 285, 708
16.3
, 464, 616
,911,258
81.4
Retire-
ment
$9, 538, 719
$16, 260, 510
70.5
$936, 000
$2. 612, 280
179.1
$1, 320, 000
$3, 240, 000
145.5
$73, 200
$280, 000
282.5
$1, 260, 000
$1, 260, 000
0
Fixed
charges
$39, 852, 670
$36, 684, 482
(8.0)
$4, 628, 306
$4, 858, 285
5.0
$5, 742, 556
.$6, 618, 693
15.3
$756, 268
$590, 426
(21.9)
$2, 648, 810
.$2, 823, 981
6.6
Net in-
come
$13, 242, 998
$13, 413, 636
1.3
.$3, 455, 784
$4,118,973
19.2
$5, 772, 646
.$4, 984, 154
(13. 7)
.$201, 502
$515, 828
156.0
$2, 370, 248
$2, 739, 201
15.6
$4, 247, 693
$4,416,051
4.0
$1,114,517
$1, 776, 835
59.4
$2, 326, 279
$2, 033, 804
(12. 6)
$71, 984
$262, 766
265.0
$819, 366
$1, 188. 335
45.0
RUE \L ELECTRIFICATION
The increased consumption of electricity during recent years in the valley area
as a whole has been accompanied by greater use on the farms.
Since December 31, 1932, the number of farms receiving electric service in the
7 valley States — Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, North Carolina,
Tennessee, and Virginia — has increased from 60.147 to 254,800 as of December 31,
"The reported earnings of the Commonwealth & Southern Corporation during 19.39 do
not include any income derived from the Tennessee Electric Power Co., although the latter
company was operated until August 15, 1039.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3819
1939. This represents an increase of approximately 324 percent, which compares
with an increase of 152 percent for the entire Nation during the same period.
In the valley States, the greatest growth in electrified farms occurred during the
year 1939 when approximately 90,000 farms received electric service for the first
time ; this represented an increase of 55 percent over the previous year. For the
same period, electrified farms in the United States increased only 27 percent
over the 1938 figure.
Important factors in this rural development in the valley area have been the
employment of the electric cooperative as the agency for electricity distribution,
the development of low-cost rural lines, and the financing of projects by the Rural
Electrification Administration. To date, this agency has loaned $10,4S6,8S4 to
Tennessee Valley Authority distributors, while the Authority has loaned .$4,400,-
512. Most of this money has been used for the construction of new rural lines,
although a substantial part was used to finance the acquisition of utility-company
properties.
The growth of rural electrification is providing opportunities for improved
agricultural practices, resulting in increased farm income. The Authority and
the land-grant colleges are cooperating in the development of new types of low-
cost electrical equipment which can be of assistance to farmers in this respect.
Through arrangements with private industry, such equipment, when developed, is
manufactured and placed on the market. The following are some examples of
equipment which already has been developed :
Pig brooders : Costing less than $3 for materials.
Chick brooders : Costing less than $15 for materials for a 200-chick capacity
brooder. Such a brooder provides an economical method for raising home flocks
for egg production and broilers for retail sale.
Irrigation of home gardens : The domestic electric water system can be also
used to irrigate the home garden, thus insuring against poor gardens during dry-
weather periods. The home garden is valued at $75 per year to a rural family,
and irrigation often means the difference between a poor crop and a full yield.
Irrigation of truck crops for sale : Irrigation of truck crops has been deter-
mined to be practical in many sections of the Tennessee Valley. During the last
3 years in excess of 500 acres have been put under irrigation. The increased
yield and corresponding higher income per acre have been reported to repay the
investment cost in 1 or 2 years.
Sweetpotato curing: The use of electric heat in curing and storing sweetpota-
toes results in a more uniform, high-quality produce that has commanded premium
prices on local markets. A net increase of 5 to 10 percent of marketable potatoes
( over the number secured through the operation of conventional stove-heated
curing houses) has been reported, which will repay the installation cost in the
first year of operation.
Hay curing : A new method of curing hay by the use of an electric blower has
been developed that will enable hay to be stored in the barn on the same day it is
cut. This method removes a big barrier in the production of high-quality hay in a
region that has been importing about 500,000 tons annually.
APPLIANCE SALKS
The low electricity rates put into elTect in the valley area have stimulated not
only the electricity business itself, but also the industries which are devoted to
the manufacture of electrical appliances.
In the 12 months ending with June 1940, residential appliance sales in the
Tennessee Valley Authority area totaled ^$12,573,000, an average of $46 per cus-
tomer. This total resulted from the sale of 35,400 electric refrigerators, 12,600
electric ranges, 4,700 electric water heaters, 1,300 electric water pumps, 14,600
electric washers, and 188,400 unclassified appliances. On the basis of available
statistics, it is estimated that if an average of $46 prevailed throughout the
Nation, total appliance sales would be increased by over $330,000,000 annually.
As of September 1, 1940, 69 percent of the residential customers served by Ten-
nessee Valley Authority distributors had electric refrigerators, 23 percent had
electric ranges, and 8 percent had electric water heaters.
Practically all appliance sales in the Tennessee Valley Authority territory are
made by independent appliance dealers. The Authority's wholesale distributors.
3g20 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
and to a certain extent the Authority itself, cooperate closely with these dealers
in sales campaigns and other sales promotional activity. The statistics given
above are based on monthly reports which these dealers make to the Authority.
The effects of the Authority's power program on the valley area in connection
with the problem in which the committee is interested are likely to be far
reaching. Increases in the use of electricity, increases in sales of electricity,
increases in the real income and in the buying power of farmers — all of these
mean stimulation of many fields of private industry, a rising standard of living,
and widened economic opportunities for the iDeople of the region. They also
mean, by the same token, a lessening of the impulse tow^ard migration.
5. Activities Relating to Water Control in the Interests of Flood Control,
Navigation, and Recreation
Tennessee Valley Authority's dams are multipurpose structures constructed
jointly in the primary interests of navigation and flood control, with the produc-
tion of power as an incident thereto. The Authority's water-control program is
another means of widening economic opportunity in the region which it serves.
FLOOD CONTROL
The Tennessee River has been one of the principal contributors to floodwaters
on the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers. Money losses from floods on these streams,
as well as those which have occurred in the past on the Tennessee River itself,
have been enormous. A lai-ge portion of these losses are borne by industry and
commerce whose properties may be destroyed or forced temporarily to shut
down during flood periods. Economic opportunities are widened, therefore, when
private enterprise is freed from the burden of such losses.
The effect of the Tennessee Valley Authority's system of dams was partially
demonstrated during the winter of 1936 and the early part of 1937, when a
major flood occurred on the Ohio and Tennessee Rivers. At that time, Norris
Dam had been completed. This one dam held back suflicient waiter to lower the
flood crest during the high-water stage by 4 feet at Chattanooga and by nearly
half a foot at Cairo, 111. These G inches were critical for Cairo at the time, since
the Ohio had risen above its flood wall and the city was protected only by an
emergency mud box built on top of the levee. Norris is, of course, only 1 of 11
dams of the Tennessee Valley Authority system which have been built or are in
process of construction.
NAVIGATION
When the Authority's system of dams is completed, the Tennessee River will
be navigable from Knoxville to its mouth, a distance of 650 miles. The water
transportation which will then be available is likely to stimulate greatly the
entire economy of the region.
The most obvious benefit of the improved waterway is that existing traffic
adaptable to barge transportation can be moved by water at savings of 20 percent
or more. This benefit will accrue not only to river ports but to a wide con-
tiguous territory because the Interstate Commerce Commission requires over-
land common carriers and barge operators to join in through water-and-overland
rates on a level approaching 20 percent below existing all-rail through rates.
Geographical limitatfons attached to this rule exclude joint rates over routes
which would be excessively circuitous, but the area in which the lower rates
would apply on trade between the Tennessee Valley and the Middle West extends
as far back from the Tennessee River as Birmingham, Ala. ; Macon, Ga. ;
Asheville, N. C, and beyond.
While the inland waterway system is not designed primarily to influence the
level of rates on existing means of freight transportation, the fact that lower-
cost substitute transportation exists generally does result in a lowering of rates
to meet the competition. The transportation advantage of a city like New York,
for example, lies not only in the ability to ship by water, but in the existence of
railway rates set low enough to compete with water rates. The fact that the
Pacific coast can be reached by water shipment through the Panama Canal is
responsible for New York's ability to reach the Pacific coast more cheaply by
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3821
rail than a number of points on tlie railroad between New York and the Pacific
coast can. As such an arrangement works to the commercial advantage of a
city like New York, so the improved waterway will promote a wider develop-
ment of industry and trade in the upper Southeast.
The Authority is now cooperating with the various communities along the
river in the formulation of their plans to provide for a unified terminal system
which will be the connecting link between water and land carriers. It is
significant that plans for these terminals contemplate a distribution of waterway
benefits to as wide an area as may be practicable and will, it is hoped, be
operated under one management for the entire valley region. The plan is
unique in that the various commvmities will be cooperating instead of competing
for traflac, and the rates at each port will be uniform.
Perhaps even more important than the savings on existing commerce, how-
ever, are the opportunities of increased commerce which any reduction of trans-
portation costs will bring about. In addition to the national benefit in the
form of a greater aggregate production, cheaper transportation widens the
market for the community to which it is extended. Up to a certain distance
from his factory, for example, an Alabama stove manufacturer possesses the
advantage of lower transportation costs over his competitors; up to this point
his competitor must pay or absorb the excess of his transjwrtation costs over
the Alabama manufacturer's or else lose the business. Beyond the distance at
which the rate from Alabama and the competing factory are equal, the com-
petitive situation is reversed; that is, the Alabama producer must absorb pro-
gressively larger amounts of excess transportation charges until he reaches a
point beyond which the necessai-y absorption would swallow his entire profit.
To go still further would be to incur a direct loss.
Because of the high existing rates on manufactured goods in the Southeast,
areas in which the region's enterprises have market equality or advantages are
relatively much more narrow than are the markets for enterprises located in
low-rate territory. Any lowering of the Southeast's cost of transportation, such
as results from 'the creation of the barge waterway, will vriden the territory
in which the southern producer can do business pofitably.
Although the Tennessee River can reach its full usefulness to consumers and
farmers only when the dams are completed and a system of terminals has been
constructed, transportation savings for southeastern businesses and industries
are already coming into being. Among movements in existence and growing
are gasoline from Illinois to Tennessee River points as far up as Chattanooga ;
grain from Kansas City and Minneapolis to Decatur, Guntersville, and Chat-
tanooga ; pig iron from Birmingham by rail to Decatur and Sheffield and thence
by barge to Chicago. A large flour mill in Chattanooga, after trying contract
barge service from the Middle Western Grain Belt, invested in and is profitably
operating its own towboat and barges; another company has almost completed
a mill at Decatur to take advantage of cheap barged grain. A large aluminum
plant to employ 1,200 men is under construction at Sheffield, Ala., a river port.
The flour and the aluminum plants will be entirely new industries in the
region. Even at this early stage, the waterway has resulted in an indirect
saving, also, in the form of lowered railway rates on gasoline from Louisiana
refineries to Tennessee River points.
From the foregoing, it seems clear that improvement of the Tennessee River
for modern barge navigation is a force which will widen economic opportunity
in the Southeast. It will, therefore, help to eliminate the present necessity of
migrating out of the region in search of .opportunity.
RECRE^VTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
In its contribution to recreation planning, the Authority is dealing with a
resource which is of primary importance in the Tennessee Valley. Early in
its program, the Tennessee Valley Authority took inventory of the recreation
possibilities of the valley. It found a lack of public recreation areas, and a
lack of agencies for establishing them. On the other hand, it found a wealth of
potential areas and an opportunity to increase incomes throughout the region
by recreation development.
An important factor in the establishment of a recreation area was supplied
by the Tennessee Valley Authority in its construction of a series of multi-
3822
INTEKSTATE MIGRATION
purpose dams. Ten Tennessee Valley Authority lakes, when completed, will
have a water surface of over half a million acres, and will be surrounded by a
publicly owned shore line of 6,000 miles. The lakes will range in length from
15 to 185 miles, in area from 5,800 to 256,000 acres, and in altitude from 350
to 1,500 feet above mean sea level. They are located in the midst of a low-
income area, providing easy access to recreation facilities for people who
otherwise would be entirely without them, and providing these people with an
entirely new source of income and opportunity for employment.
Tangible economic benefits from recreation developments are difficult to
measure. The Tennessee Valley Authority report on recreation development
in the Tennessee Valley includes limited statistics on tourist income, employ-
ment, markets for recreation business, and taxable improvement. The report
goes on to point out that —
"Resources for recreation are usually most plentiful where other economic
resources are most meager, and their development brings widely distributed
benefits, reaching from city, town, and farm into the most remote mountain
cove. It takes no capital to launch the business of selling fishworms nor is an
expensive building program required to add a profitable line of fishing tackle
at the village store. Well-financed corporations are needed to build hotels
and to operate elaborate tours, but tliis does not keep the little man from
getting his share of the recreation business through some other channel. Every
visitor to a Tennessee Valley Authority dam, every patron of recreation facil-
ities on a reservoir, and every tourist who comes to see fall color in the
mountains or to spend his vacation at an invigorating altitude is a purchaser
of recreation goods and services. He needs food and lodging, fuel and trans-
portation, and sporting goods and clothing, and he may desire guide service for
himself or mountain handicraft for those back home."
Any program of recreation development retards migration from a region
to the extent that the development of a new material resource increases the
social and economic opportunities within the region. To some extent, such
opportunities will be increased by recreation development in the Tennessee
Valley.
6. EfEects of the Authority's Program on Particular Groups
The Authority's program has affected two particular groups of persons, ref-
erence to which may be of interest in connection with the migration problem.
These are (1) workmen and others employed by the Authority or directly
affected by its personnel policies, and (2) persons displaced from their lands
as a result of Tennessee Valley Authority reservoir projects.
EFFECTS OF TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY PERSONNEL POLICIES
The recruitment of trades and labor personnel in the Authority is restricted
in.sofar as possible to areas within reasonable distance of the projects on
which the men are to work. One reason for the adoption of this policy waS to
avoid migration to the Tennessee Valley area of great numbers of persons
because of Tennessee Valley Authority construction work which, at best, is
temporary. A policy which encouraged widespread influx into the Valley of
persons seeking work would have created the problem of large numbers of
citizens left stranded at the end of construction, and faced then with the neces-
sity of migrating elsewhere or settling down to substandard living because of
excess of labor supply over demand. The geographic restriction on employment
has been waived at intervals for persons in skilled trades when the available
supply in the valley area became insufficient to meet clear needs.
Early in the operation of the Authority, the principle of setting the same rate
of pay for similar work throughout the operations of the Authority was estab-
lished. This principle is also applied to occupations in the trades and labor
groups whose rates are determined on the basis of prevailing rates of pay, as
required by the Tennessee Valley Authority Act, and through the processes of
collective bargaining. The effect of such a policy has been to help stabilize wage
standards throughout the Valley area. The favorable reaction of organized
labor to the uniform wage schedule on Tennessee Valley Authority work indi-
cates that the schedule has affected economic conditions in the area. The
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3823
Authority's uniform schedule has tended to raise rates of low wage spots in
the Valley to mo-re nearly conform to prevailing rates of established labor
centers.
In addition to the establishment of a uniform wage schedule with its attendant
effects upon the economic level of the valley area, the personnel policies of the
Authority have been designed to increase the skill of residents of the area,
thereby diminishing the need for inducing migration from other areas into an
area where a plentiful labor supply already exists. A craft apprenticeship
system has been in operation on the Authority's construction projects since
1937. The system was jointly inaugurated by labor and management, and has
the approval of the Federal Apprenticeship Committee and the international
craft organizations concerned. The apprenticeships provide for approximately
4 years of job rotation and related class work. Upon completion of this period,
the apprentice is promoted to journeymanship, fully capable of performing tlie
functions of his craft. To date, 169 apprentices in S different crafts have com-
pleted their apprenticeships with the Authority and are working as journeymen
in this area, although not all of these apprentice graduates are employed by the
Authority. There are now 171 apprentices in the process of training. In addi-
tion, more than 30,000 different workers have had at one time or another a
substantial period of construction employment with the Authority, during which
time they had the advantage of training and supervision designed to improve
skills and craftsmanship. The effect of this reservoir of improved skill and
experience is difficult to measure, but its value is apparent as national-defense
needs increase the demand for competent trained laboi^
Other training programs have been developed with the same objective of
increasing the available reservoir of skill in the area. These programs include
training for more versatile journeymen, and training for rodmen, construction
inspectors, and engineering draftsmen. Through the medium of training, the
Authority' has developed skilled employees who can economically execute the
work of "the Authority and who, as a result of the development of these new
skills through training, are capable of continuing to contribute to the valley
area when the construction work of the Authority has been completed.
Insofar as it is administratively feasible, the Authority has conducted its
training program through existing local agencies. For example, the voca-
tional and technical high schools in the area have shown marked willingness
to cooperate in conducting related training in connection with apprentice pro-
grams. They have gone further to establish additional training opportunities
in terms of "the needs of organizations other than the Tennessee Valley. Au-
thority.
As a result of these developments, the area is becoming better able to develop
from among its own people the skills which its economy requires.
EFFECTS OF TENNESSEE VAIXEY AUTHORITY RESERVOIR PROJECTS ON PERSONS RESIDING
IN FLOODED AREAS
Soon after the Authority was created, it became apparent that large num-
bers of people would be displaced as a result of dam and reservoir construction.
Accordingly, the Tennessee Valley Authority Act was amended to empower the
Authority to cooperate in the readjustment of displaced persons and families.
Consistent with the purposes of the act, a program of population readjust-
ment has been planned and executed in each reservoir area. Readjustment
is considered to be a long-time process in which the families affected, the local
communities, and their agencies have an interest and a responsibility. Many
of the problems arising in the readjustment of families and communities
are closely related to other local conditions already requiring the attention
of existing agencies ; therefore, it was considered expedient not to duplicate the
programs of any of these agencies, but rather to secure their interest and active
cooperation in the program of readjutment whereby the social environment
and economic opportunity of the families will be at least as desirable as those
available to them prior to their removal from land purchased by the Authority.
Because a majority of the displaced families (63 percent of those relocated
to date) are farm families, and most of the remainder indirectly depend upon
agriculture, contractual agreements have been entered into with the Agri-
cultural Extension Services of the valley States for the purpose of assisting
3824
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
in fhe relocation and the readjustment of farm families displaced by the con-
sfrnction of dams in their respective States. Many other Government and
nrivite organizations and groups aid in the formulation and execution of plans
for readjustment which is expected to continue after the construction of the
dams is completed and the reservoirs flooded.
To date over 6,000 families, or approximately 26,000 persons, have moved
from behind the 6 dams already completed in the valley, and approximately
6 000 additional families will move from lands in the process of acquisition
ill connection with dams now under construction.
The following table gives the number of families removed from each area,
classified according to tenure :
Norris
Wheelor.
Pickwick
Quntersville..
Chickamauga.
Hiwassee
Total. --
Families removed
2,899
842
506
1,182
903
261
2,1
640
185
Because the areas flooded are characterized by a stable rural population,
most of the families have relocated on farms or in communities nearby. Only
'>4 percent of the families relocated to date have left the counties in which
they previously resided, and only 5 percent have left their States. Many of
the farmers, especially in Alabama, had been accustomed to one-crop farming
on the river bottoms. Assistance has been available to them through the
extension services in their efforts to readjust to a somewhat different agri-
cultural economy. Many more farmers than ever before throughout the valley
are now participating in the various Government soil-improvement and di-
versified agricultural programs. Farm and home ownership among displaced
families has increased to son>e extent in each of the reservoir areas.
Thus, while the displacement of families as a result of reservoir develop-
ments has created a number of problems, these have been solved without any
maladjustment resulting from the displacement. Moreover, the vast majority
of displaced families have been absorbed within the region and have not
migrated to other areas.
III. Conclusion — Effects of Regional Integration of Activities Directed To
Widening Economic Opportunities on the Migrant Problem
The activities of the Tennessee Valley Authority outlined above do not,
for the most part, represent the exercise of new governmental functions. The
Federal Government has over a period of many years constructed waterways,
sold electric power, controlled floods, aided the farmer, encouraged industrial
growth, and engaged in virtually all of the other activities which, taken together,
form the Tennessee Valley Authority's program.
The Authority and its program are a new kind of governmental undertaking,
however, in that they represent a pioneer effort to integrate and correlate
governmental activity in the interests of promoting a balanced economic
development in an entire region.
As regards the problem under investigation by the committee, Tennessee
Valley Authority's importance lies in its effect upon the widening of economic
opportunity in a region which, because of its unbalanced economic development,
has contributed heavily to the stream of interstate migration. As economic
opportunities expand within the area as a result of the impact of a regional
program of coordinate economic development enlisting full cooperation of the
people of the area the impetus to such migration will steadily decline.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3825
TESTIMONY OF JOHN P. FERRIS^Eesiimed
Mr. Sparkman. I wonder if you will give us some of the high
lights contained in your statement in your own way.
MIGRATION FROM TENNESSEE VALLEY REGION
Mr. Ferris. As my testimony proceeds the members of the com-
mittee w^ill soon discover that I am not an expert on the subject of
migration. It is, however, a fact that great movements of popula-
tion have occurred out of the Tennessee Valley region and out of the
Southeast and that they have been occurring for a long time. Now,
obviously, these migrations were not due to chance but due to certain
fundamental problems that the people of that region have had to
face.
In order to make the things the Tennessee Valley Authority is do-
ing really effective in the lives of the people of that area, the Author-
ity was inevitably forced to inquire into what these fundamental
problems were that were causing migrations and to try to adjust
what we were doing so it would contribute toward their solution.
These activities of the Authority have not been aimed directly at
attempting to influence migrations one way or another, but they
have no doubt had considerable influence on migration, and in my
personal opinion they will have an increasing influence as time
goes on.
In giving you the high lights of this assembly of material con-
cerning the possible effects of the Authority's program on migration,
I would like to start with a very brief statement that represents my
own idea of the dominant cause, an idea, I think, in which most of
the members of our staff concur — that the motive of interstate migra-
tions today, as in the past, is the search for greater economic oppor-
tunities.
In the past, these migrations were primarily toward the undevel-
oped western lands and hence healthy and necessary to the national
development and a rising standard of living in the country.
But since this western frontier has ceased to exist, since Ameri-
cans struck the Pacific Ocean and had to turn back, migration has
consisted primarily of people who have to go out and compete with
other people in the areas to which they go. This leads us back to
the rather obvious conclusion that the core of the problem is finding
economic opportunities for people.
Mr. Parsons. After all, it is on the same principle of seeking eco-
nomic opportunities which was the reason our forefathers went West
and West and West until the Pacific Ocean turned them back.
Mr. Ferris. I agree, sir. As to the facts concerning the migration
from the Tennessee Valley region I merely want to remind you of
one or two which will serve to show you that it is a point of origin
of migrations.
That region has a high birth rate. For instance, in 1930 there
Avere 531 children under 5 years of age per thousand women of child-
bearing age in the valley States as against 391 in the country as a
whole.
3g26 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Now, by aiiotker test in 1930 these 7 valley States had in them
about 950,000 people who had been born elsewhere, but the rest of the
United States had in it about 4,190,000 people who had been born in
these 7 States. That is, for every new i)erson comino; into the Ten-
nessee Valley States, between 4 and 5 had left as of 1939, clearly show-
ing that we are talking about a region from which people go in large
numbers.
Most of that drain of population from the valley was toward indus-
trial cities in the Midwest.
Many of the people who went were not destitute, but they were
seeking greater economic opportunity — better jobs and more mc .m;^.
Their departure has placed a very heavy burden on those who have
remained. To illustrate: In one particular county in the hilly eastern
end of the valley you will find the customary high birth rate and far
more young people up to the age of 22 than in the United States as a
whole. Then they begin to drop off. They go out somewhere else to
contribute their labor and make a living. All the way to the age of
52, that is true — they are gone. At 52 they find the cities are through
with them and they return. From then on this county has to support
the same number of old people that the United States does as a whole
on the average.
In other words, one of the effects of migration from a region such as
the Southeast is that people are away when they are producing, but
they are there when not producing, which means that the productive
element in the population has a far heavier burden to carry in paying
for schools and libraries and medical services and all social services.
One more indication of the problem : In 1930 in the valley States
there were about 122 dependent people per thousand population. There
were 90 in the country as a whole, simply nailing down that same
point.
The record which has been submitted here is, as Congressman Spark-
man says, voluminous. I do not think it would be constructive even to
attempt to digest the data in it.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Ferris, may I say at this point, and I should
have said it a while ago, the entire statement will be placed in the
record just as it is presented here.
CAUSES or MIGRATION
Mr. Ferris. I understood that would be done.
Instead of attempting merely to give further figures about the
valley and the reasons that it is a source of migration, it would seem
to me perhaps more constructive to indicate what I think to be the
underlying causes.
I believe the valley and the entire Southeast are, being raw-material
regions, suffering the same disadvantages as raw-material regions all
over the country and all over the world suffer.
All raw-material regions in the world, according to my observa-
tions, are characterized by the population receiving a comparatively
small return for what they do. They take their natural resources.
They send them in the raw state to the markets of the world. They sell
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3827
them at low prices — prices in competition with cheap labor from every-
where. When the score is in, they haven't money with which to buy
manufactured goods.
To illustrate : A typical timberland owner in the South would have
to sell 300 tons of pulpwood to get enough money to buy one cheap
automobile.
Xow, forests don't last forever when that goes on for three or four
or five decades. You come to the point where the forests are mostly
gone and then the people haven't any further way of earning a living.
The proof of this situation, of course, is manifold. However, I
would like to call attention to the fact that, in my opinion, many of
the figures on low income, on poor housing standards, on lack of health
services, and so forth, do not represent the problems themselves. They
represent the symptoms of the problem. The pi'oblem is how to use
better the resources which are there.
For instance, on income, taking the figures of the National Emer-
gency Council's report, the southeastern States enjoyed in 1937 an
average income of $314: per capita, I believe, against about $604 per
capita as a United States average.
Mr. OsMERS. That was income?
Mr. FEnp.is. Spendable income, yes; for the Southeast.
Mr. OsMERS. And the national income was what ?
Mr. Ferris. $604. Xow why is that true? The raw-materials
status is perfectly illustrated in the case of the agricultural situation
where we have impaired soils — a one-crop system that tends to exhaust
soils, forests that are largely cut off, and so on.
In addition to these fundamental causes we have a system of freight
rates in the United States which has grown up around the dilferences
between the economies of the Southeast as a raw-materials region and
of other areas which are industrialized and tend to perpetuate the
condition.
These conditions were not brought about by the present population
in the Southeast or in the Tennessee Valley but have their roots far
back in history.
The industrial United States was built quite largely on the income
which cotton brought to it in the nineteenth century. When we
needed hundreds of millions of dollars to build railroads and factories
and cities, where did we get them ? The cotton of the South was sold
on the world markets and gave us international trade balances by
which we were able to industrialize the country largely.
On the other hand, the people in the South, producing cotton largely,
and in the interior regions which -.produced other staple crops like
wheat, tended to sell all of these commodities very cheaply on the world
market, while everything they had to buy — their farm tools, their
clothing, industrial goods of' every description — had to be bought
primarily behind tariff walls.
But more fundamental, I think, is the fact that those things had to
be purchased from industrial populations which sold their brains
and skills at higher prices.
Let me illustrate : If you sell pig iron, you get $25 a ton for it ; if
you make it into watch springs, you get $25,000 a ton for it.
260370— 41— pt. 9-
ogog INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Typically, the people of the South had to sell things like pig
iron, and when they bought back watch springs the trading didn't
go along very far before it affected their income adversely.
And the low income in turn has created problems of housing,
problems of health, and so forth. There had sometimes been a
disposition to blame the present situation on the present population.
Certain facts indicate the injustice of this. For instance, it can
be pointed out that expenditures for education m the southern
States are only a little over half the national average. But in
justice it should be pointed out that in many cases they constitute
a much higher percentage of total State and local tax money avail-
able and therefore represent a more energetic effort to get education
than in other parts of the country.
I merely wanted to state my opinion that all of the problems
on which so many facts have been recorded in the National Emer-
gency Council's report and in the written statement which is being
filed here, represent effects in many cases rather than causes of the
fundamental condition.
EFFORTS NOW BEING MADE IN TENNESSEE VALLEY TO REMOVE CAUSES OF
MIGRATION
Mr. Parsons. Do you think that the development of the Tennessee
Valley Authority is going to restore at least a portion of that econ-
omy to those States ?
Mr. Ferris. May I answer that by giving a very condensed state-
ment of the six lines of activity which I clo believe are contributing
constructively toward these problems. Will that be satisfactory?
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
1. SOIL CONSERVATION
Mr. Ferris. In the first place, the things that are being done in
the Tennessee Valley area by or with the cooperation of the Ten-
nessee Valley Authority are all directed, in our opinions, toward
creating more economic opportunity for individuals.
The first has to do with rebuilding soil and stimulating agricul-
ture. You will recall that in 1933 we were entrusted with the experi-
mental operation of the Muscle Shoals nitrate plants.
In those plants concentrated forms of fertilizers have been devel-
oped and are being produced experimentally and used, not only
in the valley area but rather widely throughout the United States
in a program of restoring soils.
Those fertilizers include concentrated phosphates, triple-super-
phosphate with 45 percent concentration of available phosphorus
plant food, calcium metaphosphate with 60 percent and others.
Those fertilizers are not tested merely in scientific tests in labora-
tories and agricultural experimental stations but are tested by farm-
ers on a large scale throughout the country.
It is recognized that the farm is the smallest unit on which to
observe how fertilizers can rebuild soil, because not only chemistry
and biology are involved but human nature and farm management
and many other things.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3829
There are some 32,000 farms in the United States participating
in the testing of these fertilizers. Now, as to the results, let us
call attention to a very preliminary analysis made by the University
of Tennessee.
This includes 1,126 of these 32,000 farms chosen, I believe, more
or less at random for a period of 3 years, during which time the
fertilizers were being tested in this program.
During that time the gross farm income on those farms increased
11.1 percent, which was 30.9 percent greater increase than on farms for
the State of Tennessee as a whole during the same period.
On those farms twice as much plant food was getting back into the
soil as would have been possible at the same costs under the usual
mixed fertilizer procedure.
An extension of improved farming methods was occurring and this
test-demonstrated farm program seemed to be pointing the way toward
a better economy.
Now, as to migration. On those 1,126 farms during that 3-year
period, there was not less but more farm labor employed — 3.7 percent
more. There were more jobs for croppers and hired labor — 17 percent
more — in spite of the fact that prices of farm crops had declined 11.5
percent during that period.
The testimony today has included some mention of the difficulties,
the special difficulties, of cotton agriculture. A number of these 1,126
farms were cotton farms. A check of 121 of them during the 3-year
period shown indicated that even on the cotton farms 1 percent more
expenditures were made for hiring labor on the farm than had been
at the beginning of the period, in spite of the fact that during that
3-year period cotton prices declined 30 percent.
2. FORESTRY DEVELOPMENT
The second major line of activity in this program, which may have
important effects on migration ultimately, is in connection with the
encouragement of forestry development.
There has been an experimental program in forestry under way in
the valley in cooperation with the Federal Forest Service, the C. C. C.,
and the State extension services, who have foresters on their staffs.
One hundred and ten million seedlings, for instance, grown in two
T. V. A. nurseries, have been planted on privately owned and some on
T. V, A. -owned lands.
Most of this forestry work has been of a demonstration nature, and
a large part of it has been carried out as a means of controlling soil
erosion — protecting land.
At the same time there are ultimate opportunities for much greater
improvement in using forest products.
3. DISTRIBUTION OF ELECTRICITT SUPPLY
The third general type of work under way in the Tennessee Valley
States is the distribution of the electricity which we get by controlling
waters by the dams, particularly in the establishment of mass con^
sumption pricing policies.
3830
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
In this matter of disposing of our electricity supply it was recognized
that electricity could be an important means of helping the people use
the resources around them and that it was likely that lower prices
would result in a much freer and more effective use.
Merely to very briefly mention the score of results at the end of a
few years, in August 1940 the average use of electricity in the T. V. A.
area was 49 percent higher than the average for the Nation, which
seemed to have resulted largely from the fact that the average rates
were 46 percent lower.
At this time the average in our area was 2.1 cents per kilowatt-hour
as against 3.89 cents for the Nation.
Now, the effect of this mass pricing policy on electricity extends in
the valley far beyond the areas served by municipalities and coopera-
tives who distribute the electricity generated on the Tennessee River.
It extends far beyond the Tennessee Valley area.
For instance, the private companies operating nearby were led to
reduce their rates substantially.
Mr. Parsons. Do you sell them power wholesale and then private
concerns distribute it?
Mr. Ferris. I can't give you the exact figures, but practically the-
entire area of the Tennessee Valley service network is handled by
retailers who buy from the T. V. A., the retailers being the munici-
palities who liave municipal power systems, farm cooperatives, and
individual manufacturers.
Some utilities outside of the area immediately served by us do have
contracts under which they buy blocks of power from us, including,
the Arkansas Power Co. and the Commonwealth & Southern group.
However, the general method of distribution is that the power is
Avholesaled by us. Now, these power companies did decrease their
rates and the results indicate that mass consumption of electricity
follows low pricing.
Between 1932 and 1939 the Alabama Power Co. and the Georgia
Power Co. increased their sales by 80 percent as compared with a
national increase of 49 percent, and so on.
There was a great development of the service in rural areas as a
result of this program.
In 1932, 60,147 farms were served with electricity in the seven val-
ley States ; in 1939, 254,800, an increase of 324 percent. The increase
in farms served in the Nation during that 7-year period was 152"
IDercent.
Now, the growth of rural electrification is ])roviding comforts, of
course, but far more significantly, it is providing a stimulus to im-
proved agricultural practices. It is helping to get agriculture on a
self-sustaining basis through the use of electricity in ways that im-
prove the farmer's income — rural refrigeration, pig brooders, chicken
brooders, local feed grinding, and a long list of uses resulting from
careful collaboration between the agricultural engineers of the Ten-
nessee Valley Authority, of the universities and farmers to find just
those ways of using electricity which put the farmer in a better posi-
tion to pay off the mortgage [it the end of the year. By that I mean
mortgage in the usual sense — not electricity.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3831
Mr. Curtis. I want to ask a question in reference to new industrial
plants in the area. Is that covered in your paper?
Mr. Ferkis. It is covered. It is the next point I was going to make.
May I proceed?
Mr. Curtis. Very well, I will withhold my question.
4. INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH PROGRA^NI
Mr. Ferris. The fourth activity that we feel has a bearing on the
subject of this committee's consideration is the industrial-research
program that is under way. Proceeding from the assurance that the
problem of the area is to take a rather abundant endowment of re-
sources and get a better income from them, we have had engineers,
research engineers and industrial engineers, working for several years
examining these resources, making practical studies of what could
be done with them as a basis for industry, farm, forest, and mineral
raw materials.
Those studies have in many cases had rather interesting results,
some of the end products being used in private business.
The whole program proceeds from the assumption that there is
nothing constructive in attempting to persuade any industry to move
from where it is now to any other area in the United States; that
the only constructive approach to raising the income of the area
in industry is to find new things to be done which can add to the
national income — that is, taking unused resources and finding pos-
sible ways by which businessmen can earn money by their use in
industry, and so on.
This program has included also a study of the effect of certain
interterritorial freight-rate barriers to the economic development of
the Southeast.
5. FLOOD CONTROL
The fifth activity that may have a bearing on the problems before
this committee has to do with the actual control of water in the
river channels, flood control, and navigation program.
That can be mentioned very briefly, as it is perhaps indirectly
related to your problem. However, the average annual destruction
of $2,000,000 worth of commercial property in the valley region,
commercial and agricultural property, is one of the loads on the
backs of the people of the region, and the relief from floods undoubt-
edly will have considerable significance.
Mr. Parsons. Just on that point, Mr. Ferris. I have been a mem-
ber of the Rivers and Harbors Committee for several years. I have
never been able to understand how a full lake almost to the top of
the face of the wall on the Tennessee River could aid or assist in
the control of a flood on the Ohio or the Mississippi River.
Mr. Ferris. I should not think it would, but that is not what the
dams are constructed or operated for. Norris Dam, for instance,
has a 15-foot supercharged space that is never used for anything
else except flood control, with special gates that are never raised
during floods. That 15 feet takes care of an enormous flood-control
capacity.
3832 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Parsons. Well, I can understand how it might help to take
care of some of the flood conditions on the Tennessee River itself if
that area has an unusual amount of rainfall, as the upper Ohio did in
1937, but the claim has been made — at least I have been under the
impression that the claim has been made — that the improvements
in the Tennessee Valley kept a tremendous amount of water out of
the Ohio Eiver during the 1937 flood.
Mr. Ferris. I am not a civil engineer, Mr. Congressman, but I
do have one figure on that which I believe to be reliable. That is
that at the flood crest in the winter of 1936 and 1937, when the city
of Cairo, 111., was fighting the flood with a mud box on top of the
levee, the amount held back in the Tennessee Valley took that flood
crest down approximately a half a foot. At the same time it took
it down 4 feet at Chattanooga.
Now, the other answer, which may not be what you want, is
that the Kentucky Dam now under construction will add four and a
half million acre-feet of flood storage. That is an extremely large
storage of floodwaters.
Mr. Parsons. But when that is filled how, then, will that be of
any aid or assistance to the Ohio River?
Mr. Ferris. Obviously it will not.
Mr. Parsons. You are providing a system of locks at the Gilberts-
ville Dam, are you not ?
Mr. Ferris. At the Kentucky Dam ; yes.
Mr. Parsons. Will those locks be open for a free and even flow in
normal times and then closed up during floodtimes?
Mr. Ferris. I don't understand your question, Mr. Parsons. I think
perhaps the best solution to this situation is for me to get a half-page
statement from our civil engineers, who have presented the same state-
ment to the courts many times, and file it in the record.
Mr. Parsons. Well, of course, that part of it has nothing to do with
our investigation here, and I should not go so far afield, but I am so
close to the Gilbertsville Dam in my territory in Illinois, and having
been on the Rivers and Harbors Committee for a number of years, it
just provoked the question. We will not discuss that any further,
because it will take a long time to do it and probably it will not con-
tribute anything to the migration problem.
Mr. Ferris. I am afraid I could not add much more than I have said,
but I can very well get an accurate statement for you. In addition to
flood control, the control of this river does provide a navigation chan-
nel which is of significance not only to the South or to the Tennessee
Valley but to the Nation.
There is a 5,700-mile waterway system in the interior of the United
States. This development adds 650 miles to it, and the shipments that
are actually rnoving on it are coming in from the midwestern States —
Missouri, Illinois, and from other States on the Mississippi River
system.
Finally, there has been the effect of the T. V. A. programs in con-
nection with its personnel. There have been a great many people
employed there during the course of construction and operation who
have had the benefit of the T. V. A. training programs which have
made certain contributions to the skills of the workers.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3833
RELOCATION OF POPULATIONS IX TENNESSEE VALLEY
There have been some interesting resnhs in connection with reloca-
tion of populations and reservoirs.
In connection with building the reservoirs a certain number of farm
families had to be moved. Six thousand or so have been moved
already. The question has sometimes been asked as to how the tenants
are coming out under this situation.
I have a few figures here that I might leave in the record in con-
nection with the five reservoirs — Wheeler, Pickwick, Guntersville,
Chickamauga, and Hiwassee.
Three thousand six hundred and ninety-four families were moved.
Two thousand three hundred and seventy-seven were farm families.
After the relocation process had been completed, 2,315 continued in the
vocation of farming. Of the 2,377 farm families, 1,884 were tenants.
Obviously the tenants have not been displaced but have gone back
into agriculture.
These six lines of activity may or may not, in the judgment of the
committee, have significance in connection with the migration problem
of the United States.
In conclusion, it seems to me that they are directed, all of them,
toward fundamental problems faced by the people of the Tennessee
Valley and the Southeast. The work is being done in a unique
manner perhaps in two respects in that the Federal Government is
applying efforts to a large number of varied problems of a region
in a coordinated way on the scene by an agency which operates in
the field close to the people and their own local institutions, and is
cooperating closely with them.
That, Mr. Chairman, I think, is all I have to say unless you have
some questions to ask.
Mr. Sparkman. I would like to ask a few questions, Mr. Ferris,
right on the point you just left, and that is about the farm families
who have been displaced.
When those families were relocated, were they relocated generally
in the same area?
Mr. Ferris. Mr. Congressman, the records I have on the 6,000
farm families is not exactly the same group. Including all of these,
the record showed that all but 24 percent relocated in the counties in
which they had formerly lived. All but 5 percent relocated in the
States in which they formerly lived.
Mr. Sparkman. So only 5 percent moved out of the State?
Mr. Ferris. That is correct.
Mr. Sparkman. And probably not that high a percentage out of
that area?
Mr. Ferris. That is right.
industrial expansion in area, 19 33-37
Mr. Sparkman. You mentioned the industrial research program
of the T. V. A. and said something about your encouraging new in-
dustries particularly adapted to that area to establish themselves
there — not to move there but to develop there.
gg34 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Ferris. To grow up there.
Mr. Sparkman. Have there been any to grow up down there?
Mr. Ferris. The best answer I can give that perhaps is what
happened between 1933 and 1937. During that period, Mr. Congress-
man, the number of industrial establishments or commercial establish-
ments in the valley increased 39 percent, whereas in the United States
they increased only 17 percent.
On the other hand, the number of men employed increased 41
percent in both cases. Hence, so far, it would only be fair to say
that the region has kept up with the rest of the country except there
has been a greater tendency toward smaller plants more widely
spread.
Mr. Sparkman. And have those been plants or industries particu-
larly adapted to that area ?
We hear criticism of plants moving from other parts of the coun-
try. Has there been any such movement into the valley ?
Mr. Ferris. It is impossible to say finally that there has or that
there has not. The ones of which I know are not of that type at all.
The Monsanto Chemical Co. and the Victor Chemical Co., for
instance, are both in middle Tennessee because they want the phos-
phate rock that locates there.
Neither of them moved from anywhere else. They have grown up
to use that resource and the employment and income is new employ-
ment and new income.
Mr. Sparkman. And isn't that true of the Electro-Metallurgical
Co.?
Mr. Ferris. I think that is true of the Electro-Metallurgical Co.
Mr. Sparkman. And the Reynolds Metal Co.?
Mr. Ferris. Reynolds Metal Co. is getting its business from the
expanded national consumption of aluminum and quite obviously all
other aluminum plants are busier than others.
Mr. Sparkman. And I believe in your paper you refer to a milling
company that is going up at Decatur. I suppose that is for thei pur-
pose of consuming some of this western wheat.
Mr. Ferris. That is the Nebraska Consolidated Mills. It is a new
flour mill that takes western wheat and distributes it in the form of
flour that is sold throughout the Southeast.
Mr. Sparkiman. Is the river being used for navigation purposes?
Mr. Ferris. Yes, sir; it is rather interesting. It is being used
already although it won't really be done for another 4 years. Even
now, very important shipments are moving in, including some 75,000
tons of gasoline last year. Important movements of grain are coming-
in. The Mountain-City Mills Co. of Chattanooga has set up its
own barge line and is bringing grains from St. Louis.
Mr. Sparkman. Has there been any effect on transportation costs?
Mr. Ferris. There has been a very great effect on the transportation
costs of gasoline. The railroads have cut some rates on gasoline
from midwestern refineries to Tennessee Valley points.
Mr. Sparkman. You mentioned something awhile ago about this
freight rate barrier which plays against that section of the country
and against any raw materials section.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3835
I believe your predecessor, Mr. J. Hayden Aldricli directed the
publication of a very valuable treatment of that subject, entitled
''Interterritorial Freight Rates," did he not ?
Mr. Ferris. He did, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. Which ^Yas published, as I recall, as a House
document.
Mr. Ferris. Yes; it was submitted to the President under section
22 of our act. The President transmitted it to Congress and it
became a House document about 1937.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Ferris, I got from your statement the opinion
that the Tennessee Valley area must continue to be an out-migration
section.
Mr. Ferris. The only facts that we can be sure of is that of 1.126
fairly typical farmers immediately operating under the program that
is made possible by the T. V. A., everything points to a somewdiat
larger local employment.
The amount indicated so far is short of what would be necessary to
enable the increased population all to stay in the valley, but that is a
matter that will take years to find out.
Presumably rapid expansion of demand for labor in the industrial
cities, both in the South and in the North, will result in considerable
migration.
Mr. Sparkman. Is there an adequate supply of skilled labor in the
valley to take care of new industries that might locate there?
INIr. Ferris. There is a very considerable supply of labor. In some
skilled trades there are marked shortages. In certain trades in which
the Tennesse Valley Authority has needed to employ men it has been
impossible to get them locally.
On the other hand the industrialists of the region have had an
experience generally indicating that the labor, although not trained
at the outset, absorbs skills very quickly.
EMPLOYEE TRAINING BY TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY
Mr. Sparkman. I would like for you to tell us very briefly some-
thing the T, V. A. has been doing with reference to training labor.
Mr. Ferris. Since 1937 or so there has been a joint apprenticeship
system which was set up in collaboration with organized labor. If you
want actual figures and facts on it, I am afraid I will have to obtain
tliem from our personnel department and file them with the record.
Mr. Sparkman. I was thinking you had set them out in your pages
55 and 66, I believe.
Mr. Ferris. I have a few figures' but they refer primarily to this
apprenticeship training program which had trained a comparatively
small number of workers. For any adequate statement I will have to
obtain them from our personnel department.^
Mr. Sparkman, I did think that it was a matter of interest, particu-
larly at this time when there seems to be a shortage in skilled labor.
It is interesting to know that the T. V. A. has carried along that pro-
gram and you have done it in connection with organized labor,
^ See pp. 383G-3838.
3836 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Ferris. That is true. In addition to that, Mr. Congressman,
there have been a large number of temporary employees in certain
jobs — in clearing reservoir areas at Pickwick, for instance. In their
spare time they have had agricultural training provided by the land-
grant agricultural college in the area, in cooperation with the T. V. A.,
so that at the end of their comparatively short period of employment
they go back to farm life better equipped to run their farms than they
had been before working for the T. V. A.
METHODS OF EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Ferris, we have had a good bit of testimony
before our committee describing the confusion that has resulted at
many of these defense projects over the employment of labor, showing
the great masses of people that have migrated in there hoping to get
a job.
I have been quite impressed with the methods that the T. V. A. has
used in recruiting its labor for such projects. I wonder if in a few
words you might describe that method to us ?
Mr. Ferris. In general the effort has been to employ local labor
where it was available instead of encouraging large migrations inward.
The whole employment policy has been carefully developed in order
to minimize useless wandering of people back and forth around the
area.
As to an accurate statement as to where and how the people are
employed, I will have to include that in any statement on training
policies, if you want more detail.
There have been some shortages which have been met by employing
people from outside of the area, but by and large an effort has been
made to avoid that.
Mr. Sparkman. We shall be glad to accept that for the record.
(The material referred to was received subsequently and follows :)
Empwyee Twining in the Tennessee Vatxey Authority
The employee training program of the Tennessee Valley Authority is designed
to develop the skills needed by the Authority where such skills are not readily
available to it, to increase efficiency of employees on their present jobs, and to
increase employee qualifications for promotion to jobs at higher levels. The
program is conducted largely outside of regularly scheduled hours, and, in the
main, participation is voluntary. Extensive cooperation with State boards of
vocational education, State and local universities, and local school systems has
been utilized to integrate the training program of the Authority with the programs
of educational agencies in the area.
Tlie following describes the program conducted during the fiscal year 1940:
TRAINING FOE CRAFTS
On June 30, 1940, training programs for apprentices were provided in the
following crafts : Carpenters, electricians, steamfltters, ironworkers, construction
machinists, substation electricians, construction linemen, maintenance linemen,
maintenance electricians, and hydroplant maintenance.
The distribution and number of apprentices in eacli of the crafts are presented
in table 1.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
3837
Table 1.— Apprentices employed hy Tennessee Valley Authority as of June 30,
1940
Total
Number of apprentices by location
Craft
Chicka-
mauga
Hiwassee
Ken-
tucky
Watts
Bar
Wheeler
Other 1
27
33
16
13
16
28
40
1
2
5
12
12
7
9
13
8
2
5
6
Electricians
2
Steamfitters
1
1
28
40
3
Maintenance electricians
1
9
Electricians
Department of Chemical Engineer-
12
12
3
2
2
3
1
Steamfitters
Inside machinists
Briekmasons
1
Total - .
198
4 7 1 57 j 34
3
1 93
' Apprentices in the Department of Operations and in the hydroplants, located at various points through-
out the Tennessee Valley.
SEMISKILLED WORKMEN AND JOUBNEYMEN
In addition to training for apprentices, a training program is also provided for
semiskilled workmen and journeymen. Typical courses offered in this category
are cable splicing and lead work, instruments, plant problems and blueprint read-
ing, machine-shop practice, the use of the micrometer, shop mathematics, and
welding.
TRAINING PLAN FOR STUDENT ENGINEERS
During the year the training plan for student engineers was continued. This
plan provides for the appointment of two student engineers for each job under the
plan, the students' alternating periods of school and work. A total of 30 pairs of
student employees participated in this plan during the fiscal year.
IN-SER\nCE TRAINING
Increased emphasis was placed on a program of in-service training for profes-
sional and semiprofessional employees. Typical activities offered in cooperation
with local educational agencies or in informal study groups (in 1 month) are^ — •
Mechanics.
Civil Engineering.
Hydraulics.
Fluid Mechanics.
Electrical Engineering.
Seminar on the Economics of Multiple-
Purpose Projects.
Hydraulic Design.
Model Analysis.
April 1940.
IVlathematics (two classes).
Chemical Engineering.
Accountinsi- Seminar.
Business Law.
Elementary Accounting.
Personnel Administration.
Principles of Administrative Legislation
and Adjudication.
Labor Organization and Relations.
ooQO INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Seminar on Administrative Organiza- Operations Seminar.
tion. Highway Design.
Orientation Lecture Series. Drafting Teclinique.
Public Speaking Clubs (three). Lettering.
Film Study Group. Map Compilations.
Constructive Accounting. Perspective Drawmg.
Cost Accounting. Symmetrical Components.
Highway and Railroad Seminar. Reading Clubs.
Police Officers' Class. Comptometry.
Drafting Seminar.
NUMBER OF INDIVIDUAL PARTICIPANTS
Tlie number of individual participants in employee-training programs is set
forth in table 2. One-fourth of the Tennessee Valley Authority personnel (2o.7
percent of the average number of employees) took part in at least one activity
during the year; many of these employees participated in more than one training
activity. Comparable figures are not available prior to the fiscal year 1940.
Table 2. — Humler of individual participants in employee-training activities, hy
location, for the fiscal year ending June 30, 19^0
Location :
Chattanooga (includes Chickamauga Dam) P96
Hiwassee Dam (*)
Kentucky Dam 1. 092
Knoxville 320
Watts Bar Dam 300
Wilson Dam 418
Total ' 3, 12G
1 Figure for Hiwassee Dam not available. Office had been closed when request for these
data was made.
NUMBER OF MEETINGS AND TOTAL ATTENDANCE
The number of meetings and total attendance for employee training activities
for fiscal years ending June 30, 1936-40, are set forth in table 3. The reduction
results chiefly from a reduction in number of locations at which there are large
numbers of employees and from the fact that figures for earlier years also
included many activities now considered community educational services.
Table 3. — Number of meetings and cumulative attendance for job and in-service
training activities for fiscal years ending June 30, 1936-^0
Fiscal years ending June 30
Number of
meetings
Cumulative
attendance
1940
4,503
7;729
6,148
4,871
39,313
1939 -
46, 656
1938
63, 071
1937
53, 167
1936 -
62, 073
TESTIMONY OF JOHN P. FEERIS— Resumed
Mr. Sparkman. Have you noted any migration into the valley as a
result of defense projects there ?
Mr. Ferris. I do not have accurate figures on that. Generally
speaking, there has been no basic change in the situation of a high
birth rate — too many people to earn a living easily, inadequate oppor-
tunities, and a tendency to migrate outward. I have heard vaguely
of some local shortages of small numbers of workers here and there,
but I cannot give you accurate facts.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3839
Mr. Sparkman. In your paper you give us some very good statistics
relating to tlie increase in economical appliances used by the people of
that area, brought about very largely, I presume, by the lowered rates
at which electricity may be obtained.
I am just wondering 'if you could give us any idea what level of cash
income it is necessary for a farmer to have in order to be able to afford
these electrical appliances.
Mr. Ferris. The electrical appliances listed in my written statement
were primarily for city people.
The low-income farmers generally start with light and radio and
then it becomes a problem of using electricity to earn a living — using
such things as poultry brooders or having access to local rural refriger-
ation cooperatives.
Now, that use of electricity is advantageous to farmers of low in-
come. I should say many farmers with cash incomes down well below
the $400 a year level are finding electricity very effective in helping
them increase those incomes.
For instance, you probably are fully aware, better than I, of the
problem of loss of hog meat in the South. You have $35,000,000 worth
of pork slaughtered on farms in the South every year, and some esti-
mates are that about $8,000,000 worth of it is lost. '
Well, some of the low-income farmers who eat a lot of pork of that
sort are getting together in local refrigeration associations, following,
incidentally, the development of suitable units by the engineers of the
T. V. A. and the university.
As a result of that they are able to avoid some of those losses of meat.
They can store their pork during the curing time in refrigerated
storage, thus avoiding losses.
Now, to the extent that a low-income farmer can get back some of
that $8,000,000 for himself because he has access to local rural refriger-
ation, he is using electricity to help increase his income.
The same thing is true with sweetpotato curing and poultry brooding
and local feed grinding.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Chairman, I believe that is all I have.
Mr. Curtis. Nothing further.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Ferris. You have given
us a very valuable contribution.
The Chairman. The next witness is Mr. David Lasser.
TESTIMONY OF DAVID LASSER, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN SECURITY
UNION, WASHINGTON, D. C.
The Chairman. Your name is David Lasser ?
Mr. Lasser. That is right.
The Chairman. Mr. Lasser, you have been here most of the day.
We are at adjournment time now and I want to say to you that
you are here at your own request. We want to extend you every
courtesy, but we would like to have you be as brief as possible be-
cause we are going to insert your whole statement in the record
which will become a part of the record.
Qg40 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Keporter, at this point in the record you will insert the pre-
pared statement of Mr. Lasser.
(The statement referred to is as follows :)
STATEMENT OF DAVID LASSER, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN SECURITY
UNION
At the outset, I would like to express the appreciation of the underprivileged
we represent for the able work being done by this committee. Its interest and
intelligence is raising the hopes of many hundreds of thousands for some im-
provement in their terrible condition of life.
I am here as a representative of the American Security Union, the 100-
percent American organization of unemployed. Works Projects Administration
workers, and those seeking security.
We desire to contribute out of our experience some constructive suggestions,,
not only as to how the problem of destitute migrants may be met, but ta
cure the conditions which have created the problem.
We are sure the committee recognizes that the destitution of migrants is
only a sore coming from the deep-lying poison of social insecurity. No matter
how carefully you treat that sore, unless the poison is removed, the sore will
break out with increasing frequency.
The poison of social insecurity in Europe killed democracy and gave birth
to dictatorship and war. The desperation that leads hundreds of thousands
of Americans to pick up and move somewhere else— anywhere else— led suffering:
people in Europe to give up liberty and freedom in the final hope that it would
improve their conditions. ^ ^. , ^
In America, we are turning our great energies to the problem of national de-
fense. We are determined to keep at least the armed forces of dictatorship away
from our shores. . . , „ .
The job of total defense, according to a letter sent our organization by Presi-
dent Roosevelt, "cannot be complete until all Americans willing and able to
work have a job and a decent standard of living, and that all unable to work
through no fault of their own have security."
Upon that statement of the President, we base our approach to the problem of
destitute migrants. . ^ ., ^ .
To get anywhere in this problem, we must face determinedly the facts of
social insecurity in America and have the courage to put into effect the measures
necessary to end insecurity. Only then will we keep from our American shores
the weapons of propaganda and internal confusion which the dictators want
to employ as the prelude to military weapons.
The total defense we need today means utilizing for necessary work the labor
of every person able and willing to work. It means that we will preserve as
something precious the human dignity, the health, and morale of our underprivi-
leged people. In wiping out the causes that make destitute migrants, we need
to equal the effectiveness that the dictators have shown in utilizing their
resources.
TWO KINDS OF MIGRATION
There are two kinds of migration. There is the migration of hope which
founded and then built this country. That comes from people answering a call
for a better job or better opportunity elsewhere. That kind we certainly want
to encourage today so as to have a real mobility of our labor, to be used where
needed.
The other migration is that which comes from desperation : from the feeling
that conditions are so unbearable that it is better to be anywhere else.
The healthy migration can be encouraged ; the unhealthy kind can be stopped
by one overshadowing policy : the policy that citizens of the United States will
have the helping hand of our American Government no matter what State or
city they may be in.
For basic in the problem this committee is examining, are the contradictions,
the lack of planning, the horrible inadequacy, the confusion in our whole security
set-up today.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3g41
NEED OVERHAULING OF SOCIAL SECURITY MEABtlRES
Because there are many kinds of social security, each one administered dif-
ferently, each one with wholly different benefits and pensions, the whole thing
needs overhauling.
We have the Work Projects Administration, a joint venture between Federal
Government and cities and counties. Wages on it range from $30 to $90 a month ;
w« have direct relief, which is a State and, in many cases, entirely a local respon-
sibility. Relief may be as little as a grocery basket a week, $5 a month, $40 or $50
a month. Then, we have old-age assistance, child and blind pensions on a match-
ing basis between State and Federal Government ; and, finally, we have unem-
ployment compensation supervised by the Federal Government but administered
by the State, which may provide $5 to $15 a week for 4 to 12 weeks.
The shifting policies of Congress on Work Projects Administration further
confuse the hodgepodge and affect the financing of every other category of aid.
The confusions and contradictions which give one unemployed citizen $5 a
month and give another $75 arise also because of the difference in the standards
and the wealth of the various States.
We need, therefore, not only the arm of the Federal Government to protect
a citizen no matter where he may live in America ; but we need to use Federal
resources to equalize the burden as between poor and rich States. Finally, we
need to finance an adequate program by taxation of idle funds, that its holders
can't or won't use, and use them to make possible work and security to all
our citizens.
RECOMMENDATIONS
For this job we propose the following program :
1. We propose a great national public-works program to employ unemployed
people to do necessary national-defense work. By national defense we mean
total defense. Such a program, which we would call a defend America works
program, would be natio-nal in th,e sense that all Americans would be eligible —
irrespective of what State they are citizens. It would be free from the humilia-
tions of the relief stigma ; free from the poverty wages, from the crippling hand
of uncooperative sponsors which are part of the Work Projects Administration
program. Its purpose would be to defend America and defend Americans by
providing necessary work ; paying decent wages and treating those working ol>
it as "first-class citizens" and not "second-class citizens."
This program would replace the present Work Projects Administration. It
would employ at least 3,000,000 persons as long as there was necessary work to-
be done, and as long as that number of people were available who could not
find employment in private industry.
Together with the roads, barracks, and airports it would build, it would work
on the health, sanitation, and welfare work necessary to national defense.
There is plenty of use for our unemployed labor. Let's make use of them.
This program would be continuous, adjusted to the rise and fall of private
employment, even after the end of the present defense emergency. It would be
so planned as to avert an economic collapse when armament expenditures ceased.
It would take care of the huge number of "hopeful" migrants who went to new
industrial cities to contribute their labor in turning out planes, guns, ships, and
who find themselves jobless.
This measure alone would take care of a large part of the migrant problem.
2. We propose a new social-security category of unemployment assistance for
those who could not be employed on these public works for any reason, and
who are in need of aid. Disbursed by the Social Security Board to States which
set up approved relief systems, this aid would guarantee to those in need of
relief a decent subsistence wherever they might be. The Federal Govenmient
would give to States, as in old-age assistance, one-half to two-thirds of the total
grant, depending on the resources of the State.
This would end the disgrace of $5 a month relief checks in many States ; or
the rules in others, such as the District of Columbia, that employable people
must break an arm before they can receive aid. It would stop that migration
of desperation which takes place when people feel it's better to be anywhere
else than at home.
3842
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
3 In both the relief and work programs, as indicated, State barriers would
be down; and a citizen of Ohio who has gone to California need not feel like
an alien 'from Patagonia. ... -^ /■ *-
4 The extension of imemployment compensation to provide more adequate
and equalized benefits; and provision to take care of workers who have
migrated from one State to another and do not want to lose their benefits.
This needs Federal participation in unemployment compensation.
5 Concerted national planning and action to solve the unemployment prob-
lem on a permanent peacetime basis, and to make available to all the people
the high standard of living we are able to produce.
This program will be costly. But so is any real national defense. Our
Nation is prepared to pay $35,000,000,000 to reaim before this emergency is
over But that will only give us weapons. Why not add the protective defense
of a healthy, contented people who have faith in democracy because it has
given them security?
There are some people influential in our Nation who declare that these pro-
posals we make are unnece.ssary. The armament problem will solve everything,
they say; and even the aid we give our underprivileged today is unnecessary.
These impatient advocates of economy at the expense of our underprivileged
would gamble with the health and welfare of the people and the safety of our
Nation. Right now they are planning, if they can, practically to scuttle the
Work Projects Administration program and make hundreds of thousands more
destitute.
If present aid is cut, hundreds of thousands will find their slender income
removed. Lured by the prospect of a job somewhere else, they will move to
another town only to find 3 or 4 unemployed waiting for every job available.
It is well to look at the facts and see whether they are right in their con-
tentions that less aid is needed today.
Today there are about 8,500,000 unemployed. Of them, 1.900,000' are on
Work Projects Administration; another 750.000 are certified and waiting; still
another 1.000.000 or more should be certified but are not. This total group
numbers 3,650,000 or less than half the total unemployed.
Of the new jobs given by industi'y, this great group gets only 40 percent.
Let us assume that private employment increases by 3,000,000 over the next
period. What will happen to our needy group? They will get 40 percent of
those jobs, or 1.200.000. Therefore, there will be left nearly 2.500,000 in that
group. That is 600,000 more than have Work Projects Administration jobs
today. In other words, even a 3.000,000 increase in employment will leave
an unmet need of about 600,000 for works program employment. Actually it
will require an increase of about 4,250.000 just to remove the backlog of those
waiting for works program jobs. These are facts, and no emotionalizing about
economy can change them.
TESTIMONY OF DAVID LASSER— Resumed
The Chairman. Are there any highlights you want to call to our
attention, Mr. Lasser ?
Mr. Lasser. Well, if it is more convenient to the committee I would
be glad to come back tomorrow morning.
The Chairman. Well, the trouble with that is we are crowded to-
morrow the same as w^e have been today. Tomorrow is our last day,
and the reason we are waiting now is to hear you and another witness
so we may formally get into the record your full statements.
Mr. Lasser. All right, sir ; I will be glad to be quite brief. I don't
think it will take me more than 15 minutes.
The Chairman. I have read your statement, and it is not necessary
to go over that. Why can't you give us your recommendations ? That
is what we are interested in. We are familiar with conditions.
Mr. Lasser. All right, sir. I will be very glad to do that. As the
committee is aware, the problem, as I indicated here in the statement,
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3843
of destitute migrants is only the revealing of a sore the cause of which
is necessary to find if we are going to cure the problem of destitute
migrants, and this sore, in our opinion, is social insecurity.
We believe that people migrate first in hope of a job and, secondly,
they migrate because of desperation of conditions that are too un-
bearable.
CAUSE or MIGRATION IS SOCIAL INSECURITY
Our belief is that the cause of migration among the underprivileged
groups is basically the confusion that exists between the various parts
of what is called social security — the confusion as between, let us say^
W. P. A., in which you have a joint sponsorship between the Federal
Government and the cities and States, and local relief, which is a
responsibility of the localities, unemployment compensation, old-age
assistance, and lack of uniiormity between States in residence require-
ments.
RECOMMENDATIONS
Our first recommendation basically is that there has to be an over-
liauling of our social-security categories, so that a person will feel no
matter where he is that he has certain rights if he is in need as a citizen
of the United States. There must be a more coherent program of
social-security aid in which a person will not be denied relief for aid if
he should for one reason or another move from one State to another.
Our recommendations are four or five in number, which we believe
are practical and cannot only cure the migrant problem but what
lies back of it.
(Firstly, we would propose the scrapping of the present W. P. A.
program and putting in its place a new works program employing
about 3,000,000 people in Avhica people will be eligible not because they
are on relief but because they are unemployed and in need of work and
can't find work in private industry.
People would not be compelled to go on relief rolls to get this aid
and therefore a man could remain in his own locality, or, if he hap-
pened to take a job and the job gave out, he would find he would be
eligible for works-program employment because he happens to be out
of work and in need of work.
We believe that the present W. P. A. program, as a means of reliev-
ing destitution, of which the migrant problem is one, is wholly inade-
quate and it no longer meets the needs of 1940.
It does not meet the needs, first, because the program as far as the
number employed is too small.
Secondly, the wages paid are too low for decent subsistence, and,
Third, conditions on it are such as to make, we believe, of these
people second-class citizens instead of first-class citizens.
So we believe if there were an adequate public-works program that
would take care of a large part of the destitute people who form the
migrant class, this condition would be cured.
We believe, especially now Avhen our Nation is trying to rearm and
defend itself, that there is absolutely no excuse for our not utilizing
260370— 41— pt. 9-
^QAA INTERSTATE MIGRATION
the labor of every person who is in need of work and who wants to
work.
I represent these people and I know that whether they can stick
it out in their homes or have to move to another place they want to
contribute their labor to the defense of our Ndion and they are willing
and ready to do that and they want such work.
Point two is that we propose that instead of local relief being a local
responsibility there be established a category of what we w^ould call
unemployment assistance. We recommended this to Congress on sev-
eral occasions in which the Federal Government would participate
with the States in making grants to the States if the States were to set
up approved relief systems. That means if they were to set up a
relief system which met certain Federal standards, the Federal Gov-
ernment would match by half or two-thirds the relief which is given
in the locality irrespective of whether the person happened to be a
citizen of the State in which he lived. If he was there on a justifiable
purpose and was in need of Federal aid, it would be given just as it is
now given to old-age assistance, aid to dei)endent children, and what
not.
This program of unemployment assistance distributed by the Social
Security Board would take care of anodier large section of those
people who are made destitute and who })ick up in desperation and
find that it is better to be anywhere else Jian where they are because
their conditions of life where they are are too unbearable.
We find, for example, that in States in the South the relief may
average $5 a month per person. In other cases it may be just a gro-
cery order. A person may find in New York that the same relief would
be $40 a month and, therefore, he says, ''I can't be any worse off by
trying, I will pick up and I will leave Georgia or Alabama and I will
go to New York."
The third proposal we would make is as mentioned, that in these
relief and works programs tliat the State barriers woidd be down and
a citizen of Ohio who has gone to California need not feel as though
he is an alien from Patagonia because he happened to be in California
instead of Ohio.
There should be an extension of unemployment compensation to
provide more adequately the equalizing of benefits and provisions
to take care of workers who have migrated from one State to an-
other and who do not want to lose their benefits. That would mean
some kind of Federal participation in the unemployment com-
pensation.
Fifth, concerted national planning and action to solve the unem-
ployment problem on a permanent peacetime basis and to make
available to all the people the high standard of living we are able
to produce.
Now, these, very briefly, and condensed, are our recommendations.
DANGER OF CURTAILING PRESENT RELIEF PROGRAM
I would like to make one further observation on this, which I think
is very pertinent to what the committee is attempting to do. In the
INTJDRSTATE MIGRATION
3845
next 4 or 5 months the problem that you are trying to solve, the
migrant problem, can become much better or it can become infinitely
worse. That will depend on what Congress does with regard to
appropriations to aid the needy over the next few months.
There are moves alresldy being started now on the basis of antici-
pated increase in private employment to cut drastically the aid which
is now given, such as by W. P. A.
I am sure you gentlemen recognize that if this action were taken
and these people could not secure private employment, it is going
to cut hundreds of thousands of additional people loose from their
own homes and set them adrift on the highways and byways in the
hope of finding a job in another place.
We believe that the attempt to cut W. P. A. now is a mistaken
attempt and it is going to make our whole social problem infinitely
worse.
I would just like to give you briefly a figure which I think sub-
stantiates the case I am making. The story is told us today that the
need for such aid not only to people who are at home but to migrants
also is less because of the increase in private employment and there-
fore the people who are now receiving aid can expect to be absorbed
in industry in the very near future.
We find today that there are about 81/2 million unemployed. Of
these 1,900,000 are on W. P. A., another 750,000 are certified and
waiting, another 1,000,000 should be certified but are not.
This total group numbers 3,650,000 or less than half the total
unemployed. Of the new jobs given in industry therefore, this great
group cannot expect to get more than 40 percent. Let us assume
therefore that private employment increases by 3,000,000 over the
next period — what will happen to our needy group ?
They will get no more than 40 percent of those jobs and no more
than 1,200,000. Therefore, there will be left nearly 21/0 million in
that group and that is 600,000 more than there are W. P. A. jobs
today.
In other words, even witl] an increase in private employment of
3,000,000 it will leave an unmet need of 600,000 for Works "Program
employment.
Therefore, it will require an increase of about 4,250,000 in private
employment just to remove tlie backlog of those who are now waiting
for Federal aid.
Now, 4,250,000 are a lot of people. I understand that Dr. Lubin,
appearing here yesterday, expressed his opinion that there would be
an increase of 6,000,000 by the end of 1941.
We certainly hope that his optimism is well-founded and that our
people will go back to work.
I don't think we can afford to take a chance that that will be well-
founded and I don't believe we ought to cut this aid which is now
already inadequate. We are giving about half of what is needed until
this increase in employment actually materializes and then we are all
in favor of telling people no matter where they might be, whether
migrants or not, that if there is private employment available they
should take it. But until the private employment actually material-
QL^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
izes we don't believe that the ah-eady inaoequate aid should be cut,
because, I repeat, if it is with the prospect of private employment
hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of additional people are
suddenly going to pull up their stakes and they are going to move
wherever they hear of the possibility of a job, only to find three or four
people already there waiting for every job that is available.
Now that will serve as my brief statement.
Mr. CuETis. Mr. Lasser, where do you live ?
Mr. Lasser. Washington.
Mr. Curtis. I want to ask you a few questions for the information
of the committee and for the purpose of the record.
Mr. Lasser. Surely.
CREATION AND ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN SECURITY UNION
Mr. Curtis. How old an organization is the American Security
Union ?
Mr. Lasser. Well, sir, we are just a baby. We were formed in
August of this year.
Mr. Curtis. And you are the president of the organization ?
Mr. Lasser. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Who are the other officers ?
Mr. Lasser. John W. Gruse of Indiana is the secretary. We have a
national board.
Mr. Curtis. What is Mr. Gruse's addres-s in Indiana?
Mr. Lasser. He is here now in Washington but his home is in Terre
Haute, Ind. I might explain, sir, for }Our information, something
of the growth of our organization.
I used to be the president of the Workers' Alliance of America. In
July of this year I resigned because ol tha Communist influence in the
organization. A large number of the groups in the Workers' Alliance
pulled out with me and set up the American Security Union.
Mr. Curtis. Who are the other officers ?
Mr. Lasser. Well, there is a national board of 20 whose names I will
be very happy to furnish you. I believe it is on our letterhead if you
have one there.
Mr. Curtis. I do not have it. Will you submit one to the reporter i
Mr. Lasser. I will be very glad to.
(The letterhead referred to is as follows:)
American Security Union
National Headquarters, 1719 K Street NW
rhone NAtional 4G94
WASHINGTON, D. C.
David Lasser, President John W. Gbuse, Secretary-Treasurer
National Committee: George Becker, Wisconsin; Mary Carter, Kansas; Albert
Castner, New Jersey ; Lawrence Conway, West Virginia ; J. Clande Davis,
Wyoming ; Katherine Dease, Georgia ; Edward Diggs, New Jersey ; Ida Glad-
son, Iowa ; Irene Kunst, Illinois ; E. E. Lacey, Missouri ; Hugh Leeka, Indiana ;
Edward Milburn, Iowa; Eugene Poulnot, Florida; Helen Reddick, Illinois;
Fred Rohrbacher, Illinois ; John Sparks, Ohio ; Frank Stanek, Minnesota ;
Ann White, Michigan ; Donald Wilson, Ohio ; James Witherspoon, Ohio.
"Security for Atnerica means America's Security''^
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
3847
Mr. Curtis. What is ypur business or profession? How do you
make a living?
Mr. Lasser. Well, I was trained as an engineer. The little living
I make I make as a paid officer of the American Security Union.
Mr. Curtis. How manv members do you have ?
Mr. Lasser. We have, sir, about 20,000.
Mr. Curtis. Where arft they located?
Mr. Lasser. Twenty-fiur States— spread pretty much throughout
the country.
Mr. Curtis. Is it a labi)r union?
Mr. Lasser. Yes ; we vould call it a labor union of unemployed
and W. P. A. workers. That is, we are sort of a hybrid organiza-
tion, but that is the best evidence I can give you.
Mr. Curtis. How do ypu recruit your members? Do you have
field workers?
Mr. Lasser. Well, we darter locals in our organization and give
them a certificate of affiliation, and the locals are authorized to re-
cruit membership in their own territory and jurisdiction.
Mr. Curtis. And you lijave recniited 20,000 members since last
July?
Mr. Lasser. Well, as I ^ay, a large number of them were then
members of the Workers' Alliance, and when I and some other offi-
cers pulled out these people came over with us.
Mv. Curtis. Is the American Security Union in any way con-
nected with the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lasser. Sir, we do not permit Communists in our organ-
ization. As I informed you pur organization was formed as a revolt
against the Communist domination of the Workers' Alliance, and
we pulled out on that basis, aiid our constitution forbids Communists
or Fascists or any of those beople to be members of our organiza-
tion— we keep them out.
Mr. Curtis. Are any of the officers or leaders former Communists?
Mr. Lasser. I would not know, sir. They certainly can't be mem-
bers and be Communists. What they were formerly, I don't know.
Mr. Curtis. Have you priot hereto been a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Lasser. Pardon me?
Mr. Curtis. Have you prioi? hereto been a member of the Com-
munist Party? i
Mr. Lasser. Never, never, sirj
Mr. Curtis. Never have? \
Mr. Lasser. No.
]\Ir. Curtis. Now, what dues do you charge these W. P. A. workers ?
Mr. Lasser. Well, our national per capita is 13 cents a month per
member. That is, the locals are permitted to charge their own dues
but we charge them 13 cents per month per member. That is what
we call the per capita.
Mr. Curtis. What is the anticipated annual income of your na-
tional organization ?
3848
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Lassek. Well, I wouldn't say it ie going to be very great
because there are a lot of these people who can't afford to pay dues.
Some of them are unemployed, some on relief, and some lose their
W. P. A. jobs and we are just a trifle too young to have many
anticipations.
If I were to give you a rough figure I ^ould say maybe $15,000
a year if a goodly percentage of them pa\ dues, but that may not
happen.
FINANCE PROPOSED FEDERAL SECURITY PEOGRAMS BY TAXATION
Mr. Curtis. I noticed in your statement following the five recom-
mendations you make, you have this statement : "This program will be
costly."
Do you have any suggestions to make as to how to meet that cost?
Should it be by further borrowing or do you have any suggestions
with reference to taxation ?
Mr. Lasser. Yes, sir; we emphatically believe it ought to be
through taxation rather than borrowing.
Mr. Curtis. "W^iat type of taxation ^
Mr. Lasser. Well, to put it briefly, I vould say taxation on what
we call idle wealth. That is the wealth which is neither spent nor
invested, wealth which just lies in the banks not being used. And
I tliink if you trace it back you will generally find that wealth be-
longs to people of large incomes who hive more than they want to
use or spend or invest — corporations wh'ch have large surpluses that
they can't use — inheritances, gifts, tax-exempt securities, that general
category. And I think they would represent the categories of what
we would call idle wealth.
Mr. Curtis. You think surpluses are a bad thing?
Mr. Lasser. No, sir; I think they are an excellent thing if they
are used when needed. In other words, we are all in favor of
individuals, governments, corporations saving up for a rainy day.
But we believe that when the rainy day comes they ought to be used.
In other words, with 45,000,000 people in the country today under-
fed, we believe that money which is not being used for any othei'
useful purpose should be used to take care of these people.
And I might say parenthetically, sir, that although we feel sympa-
thy for everybody who is hungry, we would much rather see, first, that
our own hungry citizens were taken care of before we begin to feed
people in other countries.
Mr. Curtis. Well, I noted what you said figuratively about the
rainy day.
Mr. Lasser. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Who will decide when it rains ?
Mr. Lasser. W^ell, under our democratic form of government it is
up to the Congress of the United States, by its power to legislate
and its power to tax.
Mr. Curtis. And you think the Congress of the United States
should use that power to dissipate corporate surplus and private
savings that were not working and funds of that sort ?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3849
Mr. Lasser. "Well, sir, we would take precisely the same attitude
as would be taken, let lis say, by a community where there hap-
pened to be a lake ownetl by one person who had more water than
he wanted to use, eithei* for drinkino; or for any other purpose,
and many other memberg of the community, through no fault of their
own, were suffering a drkight.
Now, I think that c(^mmunity in its good sense and judgment
would take away part of the water which is not needed by that
one person and distribute it to the other people who, through no
fault of their own, are lacking in water.
We feel that the samej thing is applicable to our situation today
with millions of people, as I say, 45,000,000 people, who are under-
fed, millions of them uijemployed. The whole health of our eco-
nomic organism would hk improved instead of the wealth lying in
one place — it would be distributed through our economic system.
Mr. Curtis. And wouH you have the Government take it away
from those who have it aid give it to those who do not have it ?
Mr. Lasser. Well, it already does that in a sense through taxa-
tion of income and through taxation of corporations.
Mr. Curtis. But you would have it done in an accentuated manner ?
Mr. Lasser. Yes. i
Mr. Curtis. And you wkild follow that with a capital levy tax?
Mr. Lasser. No, sir; beciuse that might do more harm than good.
Wealth is one thing and money is one thing. Capital is another and
capital may be represented py a building. It might be very difficult
to take a building apart and; distribute it.
We saw this morning wjliere the Secretary of the Treasury is
making one of those steps tip reduce the tax exemption on bonds in
order to get at what he callfe "slacker wealth," and we think it is a
very excellent start in that cfirection.
Mr. Curtis. You approve of ]\Ir. Morgenthau's move ?
Mr. Lasser. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. Curtis. That is all I liave, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. We tliank|you, Mr. Lasser, for your contribution.
Our next witness is Mr. Ma^nusson.
TESTIMONY OF LEIPUR MAGNUSSON, CHAIRMAN OF LEGISLATIVE
COMMITTEE, MONDAY EVENING CLUB, WASHINGTON, D. C.
The Chairman. Mr. Magnisson, will you give your name and
official connection and address to the reporter ?
Mr. Magnusson. ]SIy name is Leifur Magnusson. I am chairman
of the legislative committee of the Monday Evening Club of Wash-
ington, D. C.
I have submitted a written statement.
The Chairman. Yes ; and it will be inserted in the record at this
point.
(The statement referred to is as follows:)
statement of leifur magnusson, chairman, legislative
committee, monday evening club, washington, d. c.
I am appearing before the committee as chairman of the legislative committee
of the Monday Evening Club of Washington. This group has an active clues-
3850
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
paying membership of about 600 persons. It represents both lay and specialized
interests of social welfare in the District of Colnuibia.
The District's problem of the transient worlier is what brings me before this
committee.
Tlie club has a plank in its platform which approves public assistance to all
needy nonresidents pending their return to their legal jurisdictions, where pos-
sible, or pending their adjustment in the community. This means that a special
fund must be created and maintained, we believe for this particular segment
of social work in the District. The fund should hi a joint District and Federal
one, as the scope of the problem extends beyond the District.
The migrant problem, as has so often been repeated here, is a natural and
national problem. People have an inalienable riglit to move about from oppor-
tunity to opportunity in the economic world. The States cannot act as sealed
vacuum bottles of their people. Social problems in the United States knowing
no State lines are for the most part national problems. This is especially so
in the District with its limited area and its drawing power as the capital.
Mr. Bondy in his statement to the committee has indicated the special causes
aggravating transiency in the District and told ycu the history of its treatment.
I would like to endorse his four-point program wLich includes :
1. Uniform settlement laws for the various States and tl;e District of Columbia.
2. Adequate general relief to bs accomplished under the Federal Social Security
Act by making provision for the District of Columbia that the Social Security
Board match local expenditures with general pujiic assistance in the same way
that it matches local expenditures for old-age assistance, aid to the needy blind,
and aid to dependent children.
3. As part of a Federal program suitable pro'-ision of funds for care of non-
resident persons and families during the period of investigation of residence for
return to the home State and, in the event that residence is not found to exist, a
period of care until a plan is developed in each instance.
4. A municipal lodging house with suitable sa'vices that would meet a reason-
able part of the need for lodging facilities fo:* homeless men, both white and
colored.
And now, may I add a word on the general problem of migi-ation with which
you are dealing? I ask this because years ago I used to study and write about
camp housing and company towns as a would- je expert in the Bureau of Labor
Statistics, and later was director of the Washington Branch of the International
Labor Office.
Theie are two obvious phases to the problem of migratory labor. There is first
the absolute minimum of movement that just go with seasonal crops and seasonal
industries which depend on those seasonal crops as well as on special seasonal
market requirements, and, second, the problem of stabilization of that probably
larger part of the movement that arises from bad economic conditions and un-
healthy social circumstances.
Brielly, for that normal seasonal migration the chief remedial action lies in
adequate temporary camp housing and public-health inspection of such premises.
For treatment of the underlying economic distress the answer is small-farm pro-
prietorship and Government credit for purchase of small holdings. Denmark,
for example, has conserved her agricultural leadership and settled her population
and greatly stabilized both her agricultural and industrial population by a system
of small holdings, begun over a generation ago. The evils of tenancy can be
great and devastating. The contrary benefits of spall holdings and more coop-
erative living can be contrariwise equally salutary. Instead of having Avasted
$4,000,000,000 in triple-A subsidies to going, if not fairly prosperous, concerns in
agriculture, this country should have spent that amount for settling a million
families on their home soil from which they were bred and in which they naturally
find their greatest contentment.
TESTIMONY OF LEIFUR MAGNUSSON— Resumed
The Chairman. It is getting rather late and we will appreciate it
if you will make your oral statement as brief as possible.
Mr. Magnusson. If you will permit me, I will omit the statement
entirely and go to something else.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3851
The Chairman. I shall be ^lad to do that. We shall be glad for
you to make any remarks you care to, but do so as briefly as possible.
Mr. Magnusson. I am interested mainly in the local situation for the
provision of a local fund whi-h would cooperate with the National
Government and tlie Disttict o' Columbia in providing that fund.
There was some doubt cast ipon the fact that if we established a
local fund in the Districi and provided perhaps too generous relief
the people might flock to tlis cit}.
That is true but it worlls both ways. Those people would be ques-
tioned and examined and, ^lerefore, expedited in their return to their
homes, which is a desirably thing, and if they have no home some ade-
quate relief can be provided for them here. That is the main point
in behalf of a local fund fbr caring for the transients.
It is true, Mr. Chairman that we get more than we are entitled to
because they have to cross t)e Potomac River at tliis point but perhaps
when we get the new bridge Baltimore will get more of them, but
that won't solve the probkn. We will still have migrants to take
care of.
What I have to say in gineral with reference to the fundamental
matter is two things : |
It is first a matter of relieif for those who are distressed in looking
for jobs. Relief is necessarj but it seems to me that there has been
altogether too much empha^s on the relief aspect of it. That has
nothing to do with a solution of social security, old-age pensions and
W. P. A. and all that. It seei^is to me that is entirely irrelevant so far
as a solution of the migrant pr(J:)lem is concerned.
Our problem is to get peo^jle in contact witli either capital or on
the land out of which they can flet their living.
Now, it is futile to talk of cupital in certain regions in this country
and the establishment of industrial plants where there isn't the under-
lying population to begin with.
It may not be good poetry, Mr. Congressman, but it is usually pre-
sumed to be good poetry, that "i bold peasantry is our country's "pride,
and when once destroyed can never be supplied." But it is even better
economy because it seems to me the problem if migration is to get these
workers to stay on the land and in their localities as much as ]:)0ssible.
As I say in my statement I think this country would be nnich better
advised if we had spent our foui billions which in 5 years we put into
A. A. A. agricultural subsidies, as a loan fund to give to people to buy
land and to free themselves from tlie evils of tenancy.
That would have taken care of 1,000,000 families in the United
States — it would have put them to work on their own land making
their own living instead of being migrant labor.
In other words, with an appropriation of, let us say, $500,000,000 a
year — which is nothing compared to the amounts that have been
dished out for A. A. A. subsidies to farmers who I don't think needed
it, because they were going concerns already — we could have put many
people on their own land.
That is the example that we have in agricidtural countries such as
Denmark and Scandinavia and countries which have practiced that
2g^2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
system for the last 30 years, with the resilt they have a stable peasantry
and a stable population earning its lifting and making a mnnmum
claim upon relief, which in the long ru| of society is a scandalous way
of wasting money.
Don't misunderstand me, social legifiation has its part, but nothing
to do with the economic business of j)uttiig people in contact with
capital or land on which they can mak^ theii' living.
There is also a problem in education, but ve can't do all those things
at the present time. Education in the locality must go along with this
attempt to settle the people.
Instructions in farming must go along vith the teaching of diversi-
fied agriculture, and so forth.
The problem, in other words, is a stricty capitalistic one. I might
put it that way, a problem of stimulating the producer— set him to
work. Put labor in contact with land and capital and that seems to me
is the problem.
The Chairman. Mr. Magnusson, what is the Monday Evening Club ?
Mr. Magnusson. The Monday Evening Club is a group of people in
the District of Columbia who are interested in the welfare of the
District of Columbia. It includes both the lay people and the people
who are administrators in the welfare agencies.
The Chairman. Do you meet every JV.onday ?
Mr. Magnusson. We meet every moiih. We have about 600 mem-
bers and we discuss local relief problem;-.
The Chairman. And are you an offiaal of the organization?
Mr. Magnusson. I am chairman of the legislation committee.
The Chairman. And is it in that capacity that you are here today ?
Mr. Magnusson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Does this represent :he views of your organization?
Mr. Magnusson. Insofar as I speat for the local relief fund, the
necessity of maintaining that, I am speaking for the Monday Evening
Club.
I make it clear in my statement tliat on these other things I am
speaking merely out of my knowledgi and experience because I used
to be, about 25 years ago, with the Buieau of Labor Statistics studying
this problem.
The Chairman. As I understand it, the substance of your statement
is that in treating the migrant problem we need to strike at the roots
of it?
Mr, Magnusson. I think so.
The Chairman. These other things that you mention and criticize
somewhat are, we realize, more or less palliatives that must be given
as an immediate remedy.
Mr. Magnusson. Yes.
The Chairman. And not a cure ?
Mr. Magnusson. That is right.
The Chairman. So I believe we don't differ insofar as that is con-
cerned ?
Mr. Magnusson. No ; I don't think so.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 3853
The Chaikman. Your argiment is that we need to strike at the
roots of it ?
Mr. JVIagnusson. That ig all ,here is to it.
The Chairman. Thank you ^ery much. The hearing will now ad-
journ until 10 o'clock tom<^rrov morning.
(Wliereupon, at 5 : 30 p[ m., the hearing adjourned until 10 a. m.,
Wednesday, December 11,1940.)
BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY
illlilllillll
3 9999 05706 1366
SEP
9 1941