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Full text of "Investigation of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy : Hearings before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy"

INVESTIGATION OF 
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY 



HEARINGS 

Before the President's Commission 

on the Assassination 

of President Kennedy 



Pursuant to Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a 
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating 
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the 
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination 
and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring 
upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, 
examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas 



Volume 
XII 




UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 



1^ 



<=^b^,-- 



^£%'42. 



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U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing OflBce 

Washington, D.C., 20402 



PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION 

ON THE 

ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY 



Chief Justice Earl Warken. Chairman 

Senator Richard B. Russell Representative Gerald R. Ford 

Senator John Sherman Cooper Mr. Allen W. Dltlles 

Representative Hale Boggs Mr. John J. McCloy 



J. Lee Rankin, Oeneral Counsel 
Assistant Counsel 

Francis W. H. Adams Albert E. Jenner, Jr. 

Joseph A. Ball Wesley J. Liebeler 

David W. Bbxin Norman Redlich 

William T. Coleman, Jr. W. David Slawson 

Melvin Aron Eisenberq Ablen Specter 

Burt W. Griffin Samuel A. Stern 

Leon D. Hubert, Jr. Howard P. Willens* 



Staff Members 

Phillip Barson 
Edward A. Conboy 
John Hart Ely 
Alfred Goldberg 
Murray J. Laulicht 
Arthur Mar m or 
Richard M. Mosk 
John J. O'Brien 
Stuart Pollak 
Alfbedda Scobey 
Charles N. Shaffer, Jr. 



Bio^aphical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in 
the Commission's Report. 



♦Mr. WlUens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of 
Justite. 

iii 



Preface 



The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XII : Charles 
Batchelor, Jesse E. Curry, J. E. Decker, W. B. Frazier, O. A. Jones, Jack Revill, 
James Maurice Solomon, M. W. Stevenson, and Cecil E. Talbert, Charles Oliver 
Arnett, Buford Lee Beaty, Alvin R. Brock, B. H. Combest, Kenneth Hudson 
Croy, Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw, Napoleon J. Daniels, William J. Harrison, Harold 
B. Holly, Jr., Harry M. Kriss, Roy Lee Lowery, Frank M. Martin, Billy Joe 
Maxey, Logan W. Mayo, Louis D. Miller, William J. Newman, Bobby G. Patter- 
son, Rio S. Pierce, James A. Putnam, Willie B. Slack, Don Francis Steele, Roy 
Eugene Vaughn, James C. Watson, G. E. Worley, and Woodrow Wiggins, Dallas 
law enforcement officers who were responsible for planning and executing the 
transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County 
Jail ; and Don Ray Archer, Barnard S. Clardy, and Patrick Trevore Dean, who 
participated in the arrest and questioning of Jack L. Ruby. 



Contents 



Page 

Preface v 

Testimony of — 

Charles Batchelor 1 

Jesse E. Curry 25 

J. E. (Bill) Decker 42 

W. B. Frazier 52 

O. A. Jones 58 

Jack Revill 73 

James Maurice Solomon 87 

M. W. Stevenson 91 

Cecil E. Talbert 108 

Charles Oliver Arnett 128 

Buf ord Lee Beaty 158 

Alvin R. Brock 171 

B. H. Combest 176 

Kenneth Hudson Croy 186 

Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw 206 

Napoleon J. Daniels 225 

William J. Harrison 234 

Harold B. Holly, Jr 261 

Harry M. Kriss 266 

Roy Lee Lowery 271 

Frank M. Martin 277 

Billy Joe Maxey 285 

Logan W. Mayo 291 

Louis D. Miller 297 

William J. Newman 314 

Bobby G. Patterson 334 

Rio S. Pierce 337 

James A. Putnam 341 

Willie B. Slack 347 

Don Francis Steele 353 

Roy Eugene Vaughn 357 

James C. Watson 372 

G. E. Worley 378 

Woodrow Wiggins 388 

Don Ray Archer 395 

Barnard S. Clardy 403 

Patrick Trevore Dean 415 

vii 



EXHIBITS INTRODUCED 



Archer Exhibit No. : Page 

5091 397 

5092 401 

5093 401 

Arnett Exhibit No. : 

5032 131 

5033 131 

5034 150 

5035 154 

5036 154 

Batchelor Exhibit No. : 

5000 5 

5001 13 

5002 22 

Beaty Exhibit No. : 

5039 170 

5040 163 

5041 170 

Brocli Exhibit No. : 

5113 173 

5114 176 

5115 176 

Clardy Exhibit No. : 

5061 404 

5062 404 

5063 404 

5064 407 

Combest Exhibit No. : 

5099 178 

5100 180 

5101 178 

Croy Exhibit No. : 

5051 187 

5052 188 

5053 188 

5054 199 

Curry Exhibit No. : 

5313 40 

5314 41 

Cutchshaw Exhibit No. : 

5042 207 

5043 207 

5044 -.. 207 

5045 225 

5046 209 

Daniels Exhibit No. : 

5324 228 

5325 232 

5326 232 

5327 232 

Dean Exhibit No. : 

5007 423 

5008 439 

5009 442 

5010 441 

5011 445 

5012 444 

5136 446 

5136-A 446 



Dean Exhibit No.— Con. Page 

5137 447 

5138 449 

Decker Exhibit No. : 

5321 50 

5322 50 

5323 51 

Frazier Exhibit No. : 

5086 56 

5087 57 

Harrison Exhibit No. : 

5027 245 

5028 245 

5029 259 

5030 256 

5031 259 

Holly Exhibit No. : 

5109 264 

5110 264 

5111 265 

Jones Exhibit No. : 

5054 59 

5055 59 

5056 59 

5057 66 

Kriss Exhibit No. : 

5106 267 

5107 267 

5108 268 

Lowery Exhibit No. : 

5081 272 

5082 272 

5083 272 

5084 274 

5085 277 

Martin Exhibit No. : 

5058 278 

5059 278 

5060 281 

Maxey Exhibit No. : 

5094 287 

5095 288 

5096 288 

Mayo Exhibit No. : 

5111 293 

5112 293 

Miller Exhibit No. : 

5013 313 

5014 313 

Newman Exhibit No. : 

5037 318 

5038 325 

5038-A 330 

5038-B 330 

5038-C 331 

5038-D 331 

5038-E 334 

Patterson Exhibit No. : 

5311 335 

5312 336 



Vlll 



Pierce Exhibit No. : Page 

5077 340 

5078 340 

5079 340 

Putnam Exhibit No. : 

5071 342 

5072 343 

5073 343 

Slack Exhibit No. : 

5116 352 

5117 352 

Solomon Exhibit No. : 

5106 90 

5107 91 

Steele Exhibit No. : 

5097 356 

5098 356 

Stevenson Exhibit No. : 

5050 98 

5051 106 

5052 106 

5053 107 

Talbert Exhibit No. : 

5065 122 



Talbert Exhibit No.— Con. Page 

5066 122 

5067 122 

5068 122 

5069 123 

5070 113 

Vaughn Exhibit No. : 

5334 371 

5335 371 

5336 371 

Watson Exhibit No, : 

5102 373 

5103 373 

5104 374 

5105 374 

Wiggins Exhibit No. : 

5074 393 

5075 394 

5076 392 

Worley Exhibit No. : 

5047 379 

5048 380 

5049 381 

5050 388 



IX 



Hearings Before the President's Commission 

on the 
Assassination of President Kennedy 

TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR 

The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 8 :30 p.m., on 
March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, 
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel 
of the President's Commission. 

Mr. Griffin. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff 
of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions 
of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the rules of procedure 
adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the 
joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, 
Chief Batchelor. 

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to 
ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of 
President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. 
In particular as to you. Chief Batchelor, the nature of the inquiry today is to 
determine what facts you know about the security surrounding the protection 
of Lee Harvey Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about 
the general inquiry having to do with the death of President Kennedy. 

Chief Batchelor, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request 
made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission. 
Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written 
notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But the rules adopted by the 
Commission also provide that any witness may waive this notice. Do you 
now waive this notice? 

Chief Batcheloe. Yes. 

Mr. Grib'Fin. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn? 

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God? 

Chief Batchelor. I do. 

Mr. Griffin. Will you state your name for the record? 

Chief Batchelor. Charles Batchelor. 

Mr. Griffin. What is your age? 

Chief Batchelor. Fifty-eight. 

Mr. Griffin. Where do you live, Mr. Batchelor? 

Chief Batchelor. 1022 Franklin Avenue, Dallas, Tex. 

Mr. Griffin. What is your occupation? 

Chief Batchelor. I am assistant chief of police of the Dallas Police Depart- 
ment. 

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? 

Chief Batchelor. Since May 1, 1986. 

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been assistant chief? 

Chief Batchelor. Since January 20, 1960. 

Mr. Griffin. Of course you and I have spoken at some length earlier this 
afternoon. In that conversiation, we discussed your activities from the time 
that you learned that President Kennedy was shot on November 22 until Sat- 



urday, November 23, when you first heard something about the movement of 
Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County Jail. I 
believe you told me that sometime on Saturday night you were confronted by 
some newspaper reiwrters with respect to the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald? 

Chief Batchei.or. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you tell us, Chief Batchelor, about what time of the 
night these reporters approached you? 

Chief Batchelor. This must have been somewhere around 7 :30 or 8 o'clock 
at night. 

Mr. Griffin. Where were you? 

Chief Batchelor. I was in the administrative offices of the police department 
at headquarters. 

Mr. Griffin. That is on the third floor? On the third floor of the police 
and 

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you inside your own office? 

Chief Batchelor. No; I was out in the outer office of the administrative 
offices where the secretaries are. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how many reporters confronted you? 

Chief Batchelor. There were two of them. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who they were? 

Chief Batchelor. No; I don't recall who they were now It was a rather 
casual request. They asked, or they .said, rather, that they were hungry and 
hadn't had anything to eat and they wanted to go out to dinner, and they 
didn't want to miss anything if we were going to move the prisoner. And I 
told them I had no idea when they were going to move the prisoner. 

About that time Chief Curry came up and he told them, he said, "Oh, I 
think if you fellows are back here by 10 o'clock in the morning you won't 
miss anything." 

So they left vnth that and went to eat. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other reporters around at that time? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. Then later, just a very few minutes later, Chief 
Curry decided, well, he might tell the rest of the people out in the hall so they 
won't be hanging around, because they were apparently doing nothing, jlist 
waiting. So he went out and told them that if they would come back by 10 
o'clock in the morning, they were not going to move the prisoner in the 
meantime. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with Chief Curry after he first spoke to these two 
newspaper reporters? 

Chief Batchelor. You mean with reference to the movement of the prisoner? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Chief Batchexor. He told me that he didn't know exactly when they would 
move him, but he thought homicide bureau was about through with questioning 
him, but he knew that Captain Fritz wanted to question him again in the 
morning, and that after he had questioned him, why, we would move him. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did that conversation take place? 

Chief Batchelor. In the administrative offices. One thing I think I omitted. 
From the time that he told these reporters that if they were to come back by 
10 o'clock in the morning, he didn't think they would miss anything, he went 
in and discussed it with Captain Fritz as to how he was progressing with the 
interrogation and whether or not he thought he would be through with him in 
the morning. 

Mr. Griffin. You mean this was between the time he 

Chief Batchelor. Before he went out and announced it to the rest of the 
press. 

Mr. Griffin. About how much time elapsed, would you say, from the time 
he talked to the two reporters and the time he made the general announcement? 

Chief Batchelor. Oh, I would estimate maybe 30 minutes; no longer. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, in between times, did he talk with you about the 
movement? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Afterwards, did he talk with you about the proposed movement? 

2 



Chief Batchelor. You mean the mechanics of moving him? 

Mr. Griffin. Anything? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. What was the next thing yoti learned about the proposed move- 
ment of Oswald? 

Chief Batchelor. I just assumed that we would move him the next morn- 
ing sometime after 10 o'clock. I didn't know exactly when, and I came down 
the next morning around 8 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you learn anything about the movement between the time 
Chief Curry made the general announcement to the press and the time that you 
went home that night? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Was there any conversation around the building? 

Chief Batchelor. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Griffin. Was there anybody else present from the police department 
when you talked with the two newspai)er reporters? 

Chief Batchelor. There were some secretaries in the oflBce. This was not 
addressed to me particularly. They might have overheard it. We were in the 
oflSce, in the outer oflBce nearest Chief Curry's oflBce at this time, and I believe 
Mrs. Ann Schreiber was holding down that desk. 

Mr. Griffin. What time did you leave the police department on Saturday 
night or Sunday morning? 

Chief Batchelor. It was, I believe, on Saturday night, or Sunday morning. 
It was around midnight. It wasn't quite as late as it was the night before when 
I left. 

Mr. Griffin. So would it be your estimate that about 4 hours elapsed between 
the chief's press conference and the time you left? 

Chief Batchelor. I would say maybe not quite that long, but that is not too 
far off. 

Mr. Griffin. Chief, maybe this will help you a little bit to refresh your 
recollection. 

Chief Batchelor. I want to take that back. It was earlier than that when 
I left there on Saturday night. It was quite late on Friday night, but it was 
around 9 :30 when I left Saturday night. 

Mr. Griffin. Are you referring to this, correcting this estimate? Are you 
referring to this report dated November 23d? 

Chief Batchelor. I think the times in this are fairly accurate. 

Mr. Griffin. Chief, I want to hand you what has already been marked for 
identification as Stevenson Exhibit 5053. Can you identify that? 

Chief Batcheix>r. Yes. This was a report signed by myself. Chief Lumpkin, 
and Chief Stevenson which was the result of a staff r^sum^ made within a few 
days after Oswald was shot. 

It was for the purpose of bringing together the facts and times and elements 
of events in a chronological order as we all remembered them. Some of the 
times, particularly with reference to the President's arrival, which had to do 
with meeting with some Secret Service people and other groups, and some of 
this we were a little bit hazy on at first and we went back and checked some 
facts. 

As an example, we checked the Baker Hotel schedule on a room that was 
reserved for a meeting that was held, so we could be sure what time this 
meeting was, and things of that nature. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. The members of the police department held a meeting 
at the Baker Hotel sometime over the weekend? 

Chief Batchelor. No. The hostess committee of the city which was hosting 
the President's arrival and arranging for-the luncheon, it was kind of a planning 
committee, and we were asked, or I was asked to one of these meetings with 
some of the Secret Service people. 

So this was a reference point for some of our thinking when this happened 
that we could relate some other things. 

Mr. Griffin. Now your report indicates that you left Saturday night at 
9 :30 p.m. Between the time that Chief Curry made his announcement to the 



press and you left at 9:30 p.m., were you confronted by any other newspaper 
people about the movement of Oswald? 

Chief Batchexob. No, sir. As a matter of fact, we left not too long after 
this because after this announcement was made, the press began to leave them- 
selves. The third floor became fairly quiet and thete wasn't anybody up there 
to speak of and it just died out. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you confronted by anybody after the chief made his 
announcement with respect to Oswald? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir ; not that I recall. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how you arrived at the time at 9 :30, stated in 
the report? Was that based on your records? 

Chief Batchelor. That was fresh in my mind when we wrote this report. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, who was left in charge of the police department that 
night after you left at 9:30? 

Chief Batchelor. We have a night chief who comes on at 5 o'clock in the 
afternoon and he works until 2 in the morning. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who it was that night? 

Chief Batchelor. Well, there is only one. It would have been Chief Jack 
Tanner. 

Mr. Griffin. Who would then replace him at 2 o'clock in the morning? 

Chief Batchelor. No one. There is a, well, I say no one. There is an 
inspector also who works around the clock. I don't recall which inspector was 
on duty that night, but there is an inspector on duty at night around the 
clock. 

Mr. Griffin. I notice — if you want to refer to your report on page 29, the 
report indicates that you received a telephone call at your home about 6 :30 in 
the morning from Captain Talbert. Can you tell us what that call was about? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir. He called and informed me that he had gotten 
a call, and he didn't tell me at the time where he got it ; he said an anonymous 
call. 

Later I learned it came from the FBI, and they in turn had called him. 
That about a hundred men were going to take the prisoner Oswald and they 
didn't want to get any policeman hurt. So I told him to send a squad by 
Chief Curry's house and inform him about it. And at that moment we weren't 
concerned about him in the jail. We wer'e concerned about him in the transfer. 

Mr. Griffin. Why did Talbert call you rather than some other member of 
the police department? 

Chief Batchelor. He tried to call Chief Curry and he couldn't get him to 
answer his phone. I guess he was dog-tired and he couldn't get him up. And 
I told him to send a squad car by and tell him. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Did you haVe any discussion with him at that point 
who had responsibility to make this decision? Did you feel you had the re- 
sponsibility to give instructions on the basis of having received this report 
that some men were going to try to go after Oswald? Did you feel you had 
any responsibility to take any protective action? 

Chief Batchelor. At that moment? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Chief Batchelor. No. The way it came to me, it was my feeling that this 
was to happen when we attempted to transfer him, not to come up to the jail 
and get him. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after you received that phone call? 

Chief Batchelor. I got up and dressed to come down to the oflBce. 

Mr. Griffin. What time did you arrive down at the office? 

Chief Batchelor. About 8 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when you got to the office? 

Chief Batchelor. Chief Stevenson and I got there about the same time. I 
parked my car in the basement and we walked into the city hall or into the 
police station, and we noticed a television camera set up in the areaway 
leading into the garage. 

I made the comment that they would have to do something about the tele- 
vision camera because it was right in the path where they would bring the 
prisoner out. There was no one around the camera. It was just sitting there. 



Mr. Griffin. I want to hand you here, chief, a diagram of the inside of the 
basement garage area. Do you have a pencil or anything that you can mark 
with? 

Chief Batchelob. Yes. The camera — can I mark here? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Chief Batchelor. The camera was sitting right here. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you put a "C" there so we know it is a camera. 

Chief Batchelor. [Complies.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what television station had this camera there? 

Chief Batchelor. It was KRLD. 

Mr. Griffin. What makes you think it was KRLD? 

Chief Batchelor. I just seem to recall that in my mind the letters on the 
side of the camera. I could be wrong. It could have been a WBAP camera. 

Mr. Griffin. Was the camera manned? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other people in the basement area at that time? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Who was it that you instructed to move the camera? 

Chief Batchelor. I didn't instruct anybody at that moment. We merely 
commented it was going to be moved, but instructed it to be moved later when 
we came back down. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what did you do after you passed the camera? 

Chief Batchelor. Went up to the oflSce. 

Mr. Griffin. How did you go? 

Chief Batchelor. Went through the basement and into the elevator and 
went up. 

Mr. Griffin. You went up to the third floor? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. To your oflSce. Do you remember what conversation you had 
with Chief Stevenson along the way? 

Chief Batchelor. Well, we were commenting about that camera and that 
they were going to have to move it, and we were going to have to man that 
basement. But at the moment, plans hadn't jelled as to when we would move 
him. Actually, back in our minds, I suppose, was the idea that when the 
time came, that the sheriff's department would probably move him, because this 
is customary in moving a prisoner. They normally come down and get the 
prisoner. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you discuss with Chief Stevenson anywhere along the way 
upstairs this phone call which you received from Mr. Talbert earlier in the 
morning? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes ; I think I mentioned that to him. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember anything about that conversation? 

Chief Batchelor. Not anything especially. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall whether he knew or Stevenson knew at the time 
you saw him down in the basement that there had been such a threat? 

Chief Batchelor. I believe he did. I think someone from one of his bureaus 
had called him, if I remember right. It was rather common knowledge that 
a call like that had been received. 

Mr. Griffin. As you walked to the elevator in the basement, do you recall 
whether or not there were any people in the basement? 

Chief Batchelor. No ; I don't remember anybody except those people in the 
jail office. 

Mr. Griffin. The people in the jail office were employees of the jail? 

Chief Batchelor. They were the jail crew that stay on all night long; yes. 
Not the all night. These would have been the morning shift just come on. 

Mr. Griffin. At what time did that morning shift come on? 

Chief Batchelor. At 7 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Chief, would you take this diagram and mark on there the 
time that you believe you saw that camera? 

Chief Batchelor. [Marks.] 

Mr. Griffin. I am marking this, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March 23. 
1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 5000." 



As you walked into the building and went up to the third floor, did you see 
anybody in the garage area or along the ramp or near the record room other 
than police department employees? 

Chief Batchelob. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what happened when you got up to the third floor? What 
did you do? 

Chief Batchelor. I went to my oflSce. I don't remember exactly what I did. 
Chief Curry came in very shortly after that, and I went into this oflBce and 
we started discussing the possibility of moving the prisoner. 

Mr. Griffin. Now will you try to remember who else was in the oflBce with 
Chief Curry when you walked in? 

Chief Batchelob. No one. 

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody come in after you? 

Chief Batchelor. Stevenson came in a little bit later. 

Mr. Griffin. How much later, would you say? 

Chief Batchelor. Oh, 2 or 3 minutes later, if I remember. 

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody else come in after that during this conversation? 

Chief Batchexor. I don't recall that they did. I don't believe there was. 

Mr. Griffin. Did Chief Lunday come in? 

Chief Batchelor. No. Chief Lunday didn't come down until later in the 
morning, I believe. 

Mr. Griffin. Did Captain Talbert join you? 

Chief Batchelob. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Captain Talbert still on duty when you arrived at the police 
department? 

Chief Batchelor. Captain Talbert was on duty that morning. He came on 
at 7 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Talbert came on at 7, but as I understand it, Talbert called 
you at your home about 6 :30. How did that happen? 

Chief Batchelor. Well, he is a platoon commander, and a platoon commander 
comes down early before the rest of the men to get his detail, and he had gotten 
this information from the night commander. The information came into them 
before they came on duty, and someone had tried to call Chief Curry. When 
they came down, they told me about it and I called them and I told them to send 
a squad by and wake Chief Curry up and tell him. 

Mr. Griffin. What platoon was Talbert in charge of? 

Chief Batchelor. The second platoon that month. 

Mr. Griffin. By "platoon," what do you mean? 

Chief Batchelor. The first platoon is the night platoon that comes on theoreti- 
cally at midnight. It actually come.s on at 11 o'clock the preceding day and 
it goes to 7 o'clock the next morning. 

Mr. Griffin. What area does a platoon man? 

Chief Batchelor. It mans the city. This is a uniform platoon. We have 
three substations and they change the same way. The substations are under 
the platoon commander, and each of the substations has a lieutenant in charge 
of the substation who accounts to the platoon commander, who is a captain. 

Mr. Griffin. Tell me if my understanding is right, that Talbert at this point 
had operational responsibility for all the men throughout the city? 

Chief Batchelor. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. Sort of like the executive oflScer on a ship or something? 

Chief Batchelob. That's right. 

Mr. Geiffin. Tell us what your conversation was with Chief Curry up in his 
oflSce when you first went in? 

Chief Batchelob. I asked him, I believe, if he had called Sheriff Decker. 

Mr. Gbiffin. What did he say? 

Chief Batchelob. He said, no, he hadn't, but he was fixing to do that. And 
he did do it. He picked up the phone and called Sheriff Decker. 

This was — I got down around 9 o'clock — I mean around 8 o'clock, correction — 
and it must have been somewhere around 8 :30 or 8 :45 when he called Decker. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you talk with him before he called Sheriff Decker? 

Chief Batchelor. Just a few minutes. He called Sheriff Decker, and Decker 

6 



said — and I was hearing only one side of the conversation, but I gathered that 
Decker had told him he thought he was going to move the prisoner. Curry said, 
"Well, if you want us to, we will." So he said, "I think you've got more man- 
power than we have. You move him if you will." 

Then we had discussed this threat that had been received and 

Mr. Griffin. You and 

Chief Batchexob. Curry. 

Mr. Griffin. Did Curry mention the threat to Decker in the telephone con- 
versation? 

Chief Batchelor. I just don't remember whether he did or not. I would 
think reasonably that he did, but I don't remember. 

Mr. Griffin. When Chief Curry talked with Decker, did he make any mention 
of what time Oswald would be moved? 

Chief Batchelor. He didn't set any definite time. He told him that Captain 
Fritz wanted to question Oswald again that morning, and that when he got 
through, they would be ready to move him, and he thought this would be some- 
time after 10 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Had Fritz begun to question Oswald when Curry was on the 
telephone with Decker? 

Chief Batchexor. I really don't know. Shortly after we made the decision, 
Curry went back to the oflBce and they were questioning him. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when Curry and Decker talked on the telephone on this 
occasion, did Curry say anything about how Oswald would be moved ? 

Chief Batchelor. Well, I think he called him back later and told him how 
after we had talked, because we hadn't made the decision to use an armored 
car to move him, armored truck, until after we had determined that he wasn't 
going to move him and it was going to be our job. Then we decided to discuss 
the armored car. 

Mr. Griffin. Did Chief Curry have any discussion with Decker in this first 
telephone conversation about the route that would be followed in moving Oswald? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't think so, because I am sure we didn't know at that 
moment just exactly what we would do. He went back and talked to Fritz about 
the advisability of this later, and we discussed it, and Stevenson came up and 
discussed it, and our plan was to take him down Elm Street originally. We 
would go out of the basement to Commerce, Commerce to Central Expressway, 
north on Central to Elm, and then west on Elm to Houston, and then go back 
east to the jail entrance door of the county jail and come in. This was our 
original plan. 

Mr. Griffin. In this first telephone conversation with Decker was Stevenson 
present in Curry's office? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't believe he was. I know he wasn't when we started. 
He may have walked in there while I was talking to him, but I believe Curry 
and I was the only ones present. 

Mr. Griffin. When Curry finished talking with Decker and he hung up the 
phone, did he say anything to you? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes ; he said obviously Decker wants us to move him. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you say? 

Chief Batchelor. I said we'd better start making some arrangements then. 
And he said, "What do you think about getting an armored car, an armored 
truck?" 

And I said, "I think I know where I can get one." 

Mr. Griffin. Where was that? 

Chief Batchelor. This was from the Armored Motor Car Service. 

Mr. Griffin. Where is that located? 

Chief Batchelor. It is on — what is the name of that street? 

Mr. Griffin. In the downtown area? 

Chief Batchelor. It just borders on the downtown area. It is off of Ross 
Avenue. 

Mr. Griffin. North or south? 

Chief Batchelor. It is north of Ross Avenue. I should think of the name of 
the street. It is an old street here, but I just can't think of it offhand. 

Mr. Griffin. What is the name of the armored car company again? 



731-228 O— 64— vol. XII- 



Chief Batchelob. Armored Motor Car Service. It is actually a Fort Worth 
company who services both Dallas and Fort Worth, and they have an office 
here, too. 

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead. 

Chief Batchelor. After this, I told him that I thought I could get one. I 
then went to the city directory to see who was in charge here, where I might get 
ahold of his phone number. And I called the vice president at his home. This 
was on Sunday morning. It was before he had gone to church. It must have been 
somewhere around 9 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you give us the name of the vice president? 

Chief Batchelor. It was Mr. Fleming. Mr. Fleming was the vice president, 
and I talked to him at his home, and he told me that he would be glad to furnish 
us one. As a matter of fact, he had two trucks which we could take our choice. 
One was a small truck, but would accommodate only one passenger in the back. 
The other one was what they call an overland truck, and it had seats on either 
side in the back and would accommodate several people. 

And I said, "I don't know whether this will go down to the basement or not." 
But I asked him how tall it was and he said he didn't know, but he would have 
it measured and let me know. And I told him that I would find out what the 
height of the ramp was. We have a low place in the ramp as you go down 
,at the bottom of the ramp, and it is only 7 feet 5 inches tall at that point, so I 
found out what that height was, and I called him back. 

Mr. Griffin. Now at the time you first talked with Mr. Fleming, did you 
indicate to him what time you would need the armored vehicle? 

Chief Batchexor. Yes ; I told him sometime around 10 or a little after. And 
he said he would get there as quickly as possible. He had to call a crew down 
to man the truck. And Mr. Hall, who is their Dallas representative here, 
brought the truck down with another driver driving the small one. 

Mr. Griffin. When was the truck brought down? 

Chief Batchelor. It was brought down — probably it wasn't at 10 o'clock, 
because they didn't get there that early. It must have been closer to 11 o'clock 
when they finally got down there with it. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you say anything else to Mr. Fleming during this first 
telephone conversation? Did you tell him anything about the route? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't believe that I told him the route we were going 
to take, no. I know I didn't tell him. 

Mr. Griffin. While you were on the telephone with Mr. Fleming, where was 
Chief Curry, if you know? 

Chief BATCHEn^oR. He was in his office. I called Mr. Fleming from my office. 
I left his office and went into my office and called him. 

Mr. Griffin. How about Chief Stevenson, where was he? 

Chief Batchelor. He was either in his office or in Chief Curry's office with 
him. We were all together. 

Mr. Griffin. At the time that Curry got off the first telephone call with 
Decker, was there anything that Stevenson was supposed to do ? 

Chief Batchexor. Well, he and I both, under Chief Curry's instructions, he 
said you'd better go downstairs and see what manpower you will need to cover 
that basement down there. One other thing. Chief Lumpkin had come in and 
he was the man I asked to find out for me how tall that ramp was down there, 
what the clearance was. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did Lumpkin go down there before or after you called 
Fleming? 

Chief Batchelor. I think he went down there. He called somebody down 
that knew how tall it was, but that was after I talked to Fleming the first 
time. 

Mr. Griffin. Does your office. Chief, maintain any records of outgoing tele- 
phone calls? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. At the time that you were talking to Fleming, between the time 
that the chief talked with Decker and you talked with Fleming, would there 
have been any occasion for a dispatcher to make any particular communication 
to the people in the field as a result of the conversation with Decker? 

8 



Chief Batchelor. No, sir. As a matter of fact, nobody knew this. I mean, 
except the few people on the staff. 

Mr. Griffin. I realize that nobody would have known about the particular 
contents of the conversation, but what I am getting at is, is there any reason 
that somebody might have said at this point he knew you were going to have to 
make a move, you'd better dispatch the men in? You'd better send out a gen- 
eral call to bring in more men? 

Chief Batchelor. This would have been handled in a telephone conversation 
with the dispatcher, yet nobody would know the real reason for it. Talbert did 
have some men called in. He did have some men called in. 

Mr. Griffin. How did Talbert come to make this call in relation to the 
conversation? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't know, unless he was anticipating. Well, I don't 
know how to say it. It had gotten on the radio and in the newspapers and 
everywhere else that this was going to be at 10 o'clock, I presume, because there 
was people all up and down the street, across the street from the city hall on 
Commerce waiting for this thing to happen. 

Mr. Griffin. Were they waiting there when you came in at 8 o'clock? 

Chief Batchexor. Oh, there wasn't anybody there that early, but they were 
down there around 10 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you think of anything that might have happened in the 
ordinary course of things after Decker and Curry talked, that would have been 
recorded in the police department? 

Chief Batchelor. About the movement of the prisoner? 

Mr. Griffin. No. I am particularly referring to the movement of the pris- 
oner, but I am thinking of something that might pinpoint the time in which this 
conversation with Decker occurred, that Curry might have said at this point, 
"All right, Stevenson, bring in so many men," and Stevenson would have told the 
dispatcher to send out a call, and nobody would have known the purpose of the 
call, but it would fix a time? 

Chief Batchelor. Stevenson went back after we determined we were going 
to have to secure the basement and move the prisoner. He went back to his 
bureau and had them send some men down there, some detectives. 

He didn't have to call them from the field. He had them back there. 

Talbert sent out and got some men, and I don't know whose direction he did 
that on, but we went down there to see what manpower we would need. And 
when we got there, he had them there, and where he got this information, I don't 
know. 

Mr. Griffin. Now after you talked with Fleming the first time, what did you 
do? After you finished that telephone conversation? 

Chief Batchelor. We went downstairs and that is when we had instructed 
them — it was Wiggins, I believe, in the jail oflice, to get that camera out of 
there. And we instructed them — 'Curry went down with us, too, and there were 
two cars sitting across from the jail exit door. They were sitting in these 
places right here. 

Mr. Griffin. You want to take a pen and mark? 

Chief Batchelor. And we had these cars moved [marking on exhibit]. 

Mr. Griffin. What time of the morning would you estimate that was? 

Chief Batchexor. This must have been about 9 :30 or 9 :15, somewhere along 
in there. 

Mr. Griffin. You want to mark what you think the approximate time was in 
between the two cars where you marked? 

Chief Batchelor. [Indicates time.] 

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other cars in the basement area at that time? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes ; there was several other cars. Chief Curry's car was 
over here, and mine was over here. 

Mr. Griffin. That is in the chief's normal parking place? 

Chief Batchelor. These all are our normal spaces. 

Mr. Griffin. You want to mark those in there? 

Chief Batchelor. [Marks.] 

Mine is over here, and I don't know whether Chief Fisher was in there or not. 
I don't remember his. 

9 



Mr. Griffin. You want to pur the time in between those two also? 

Chief Batchelor. [Marks time.] 

Mr. Griffin. What time they were parljed in there, the time that you are 
talking about right now that you saw them there. That is the same time that 
was on the other cars ? 

Chief Batchelor. They were there all morning. They were parked there 
and they stayed there up until we moved them. 

Mr. Griffin. So they were there at 9 :15 to 9 :30? 

Chief Batchelor. [Marks on chart.] 

Mr. Griffin. Were there other cars in the basement area? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes, there were others. I don't recall just exactly. It 
wasn't full. It was a Sunday, and Chief Stevenson's car was parked over here 
somewhere, and Chief Lunday's, Lumpkin's car was parked here. 

Mr. Griffin. Was there general traflBc of police cars in and out of the garage? 

Chief Batchelor. There would have been. However, on Sunday morning, 
that time of day there is very little traflSc in and out of there. It is one of the 
quietest times. There were two or three other ears parked in here. 

Mr. Griffin. When yooi went down to the basement at that time, were there 
news people in the basement? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir. When we went down in there the next time, there 
was some cameras setting up here that had just been rolled in. They weren't 
operative. 

Mr. Griffin. Let's focus on this trip that you took downstairs with, was it 
Stevenson? 

Chief Batchejlor. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. At 9 :15 or 9 :30. What is your best estimate of the number of 
news people that were down there? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't know. I can tell you a better estimate when we 
finally went down there. 

Mr. Griffin. Was it crowded or sparsely crowded? 

Chief Batchelor. It wasn't crowded ; no. There wasn't any big congregation. 
There may be two or three people from — some television people standing around 
there, trying to get set up, and they had some cables and stuff in there, and the 
best I remember, we told them they were going to have to move those cables out 
of there. And we instructed Lieutenant Wiggins to move these two vehicles out. 

Mr. Griffin. Those were the two that are on the Main Street side of the 
entrance into the garage area ? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes, north side. And that we were going to have this for 
the news media to stand behind the rail. 

Mr. Griffin. Right where the two cars were that you wanted to be moved? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes ; and we instructed the television people that they would 
have to put their cameras on this side of the driveway. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to any newspeople yourself? 

Chief Batchelor. I didn't myself. I was present there. I don't remember 
exactly who directed, whether it was Chief Curry or Stevenson or myself, but 
I mean it was three of us standing there, and we all agreed that this needed 
to be done, and one of us told them. 

Mr. Griffin. Now this first trip down to the basement, what did you do 
besides direct that the two cars on either side of the garage entrance be 
moved, and that the camera be moved back there? 

Chief Batchelor. We went over in here, and there were some detectives around 
in here. 

Mr. Griffin. Now can you indicate in words what you are referring to on 
the map? 

Chief Batchelor. They were along in here. There was a man over here 
by this elevator. 

Mr. Griffin. This is 

Chief Batchelor. City hall elevator. 

Mr. Griffin. The first place that you referred to was the entrance way in 
the garage. Were some people congregated there, and was there a man at 
the No. 1 or No. 2 elevator? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

10 



Mr. Geiffin. Do you know who he was? 

Chief Batchelor. No ; I didn't pay any attention to who he was. It was a 
uniformed man standing over there. I later learned this was a reserve that 
was over there, but I didn't pay any attention. 

Mr. Griffin. The uniformed man was a reserve officer? 

Chief Batchetlor. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Who did you later learn that from? 

Chief Batchelor. In the course of the investigation later. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Some days after Oswald was shot? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now after going over near the elevator where the uniformed 
reserve officer was, what did you do next? 

Chief Batchelor. Well, we went back upstairs. And Stevenson had gone at 
this time. We went down this first time to see the layout, and there wasn't 
too many here. We went back upstairs, and Chief Stevenson sent some detectives 
down, and brought his uniformed men in. I came down the last time, was just 
before the removal of the prisoner, and in the meantime I had contacted Mr. 
Fleming about the armored motor car. 

Mr. Griffin. You came down three times? 

Chief Batchelor. I went up once, and then Stevenson and I came down and 
looked this thing over, and then down with Curry, and then the last time. 

Mr. Griffin. On the first occasion when you were down there, you say you 
saw this uniformed reserve officer. Did you later learn what his name was? 

Chief Batcheh^or. I don't remember it. It is in the report. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you mark with an "X" on the map where that reserve 
officer was standing and the approximate time? 

Chief Batchelor (marking). He was standing over here. 

Mr. Griffin. Let the record indicate that he has marked it with a circle. 
This is again somewhere around 9 :15 or 9 :30? 

Chief Batchelor. Somewhere along there. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you learn in the course of your investigation his name? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall his name. 

Mr. Griffin. Would that appear anywhere in the report, do you think? 

Chief Batchelor. Not in that report. It would appear in the reports that 
were made by Captain Jones in the course of investigating who was where. 
You have a diagram similar to this with everybody marked on it, and he is on 
one of those. 

Mr. Griffin. Had he been stationed there by somebody? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes ; now I could be mistaken about the exact time I saw 
him there. That is, whether it was this trip or the trip before. I could be 
mistaken about it, but I do remember seeing him here when we came down. 

Mr. Griffin. Excuse me, do you want to mark the map then what the 
alternate time might be? You might write whatever time you think it was. 

Chief Batchexor (marking). He was there before then, but I am talking 
about when I may have seen him there. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, Chief, after you left the basement area on this first trip, 
where did you go? 

Chief Batchelor. We went back upstairs to the office. 

Mr. Griffin. Did Chief Stevenson go back up with you? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. When you got back up on the third floor, were there news media 
personnel on the third floor? 

Chief Batchelor. There were some up there. 

Mr. Griffin. I take it, it was not what you consider a crowded condition. 

Chief Batchelor. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there television cameras still there? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. When you arrived at 8 o'clock in the morning, were there TV 
cameras up there? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Were the TV cameras manned at 8 o'clock in the morning? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes ; the best I remember, they were. 

11 



Mr. Gbiffin. Do you recall what TV stations had cameras up there at that 
time? 

Chief Batchelob. It was KRLD and WFAA, if I remember right. And I 
could be mistaken about the WFAA. It could have been WBAP. 

Mr. Griffin. How do you happen to remember KRLD? 

Chief Batchelor. They were the first ones in there and they had their truck 
parked outside. And also, I am pretty sure it was WFAA, because WFAA had 
a truck parked on the Harwood Street side. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you able to tell at 8 o'clock in the morning if they were 
shooting footage? 

Chief Batchelor. I couldn't tell. All the time that I remember, they had 
these little viewers in the back of the thing and you could see through them and 
see what was going on through them, look through the camera. Whether they 
were shooting footage, there wasn't anything to shoot that morning. It was 
pretty quiet. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, the second trip when you came back upstairs after your 
first trip downstairs, where did you go? 

Chief Batchelor. After the first trip, I came back up to again get in touch 
with Mr. Stevenson and tell him. 

Mr. Griffin. Fleming? 

Chief Batchelor. Fleming, I mean, and tell him what the height of that 
thing was. Then he told me, well, I will just send both trucks down there and 
you can take the one you want. 

Mr. Grietin. This second phone call, was Mr. Fleming at home? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know whether Fleming had been contacted by anyone 
in your oflBce or Decker's oflBce or anybody else prior to your first phone call 
to him? 

Chief Batchelor. I would think not. He couldn't, because this was his first 
knowledge of it. 

Mr. Griffin. Could you tell us what else you said to him? What else this 
conversation involved? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall saying anything other than expressing our 
appreciation for his help. And he said he would send both of the trucks down. 
I told him how to bring the trucks. I told him to bring them east on Harwood — 
I mean on Commerce Street, and that we would back it down the ramp so that 
we would be leaving the ramp in the right direction when they pulled out. 

Mr. Griffin. Up to the time that you had this second conversation with 
Fleming, had you discussed with anybody the route by which you would take 
Oswald to the county jail? 

Chief Batcheloe. Nobody but Chief Curry, that I recall, and probably Chief 
Stevenson. As a matter of fact, this route that they were to take was worked 
out more between Stevenson and Curry and Fritz than it was with me. My 
primary job here was to get the truck and get the cars placed, and it was 
decided that Chief Curry would lead the car down there, followed by a car 
of detectives, and then the armored car, and then followed by another car of 
detectives, and then followed by Stevenson and I in a rear car. 

Mr. Griffin. This planned route of the movement was to go from Com- 
merce to Central Expressway, left to Elm Street, then down EJlm Street? 

Chief Batchelor. To Houston ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now as a result of that decision, were any cars or oflBcers called 
in from the field? 

(Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Who? 

Chief Batchelor. Talbert called his oflBcers in. He had called and scattered 
them up. And then there was some discussion about taking it down Main 
Street, and I am not too sure where I got this information, but anyway, he 
sent a sergeant and moved those oflBcers over a block to Main Street. 

Mr. Griffin. Why was the route changed? 

Chief Batchelor. Well, I don't know. The route was changed without my 
knowing it, really. When they decided to take Oswald in an automobile instead 
of the armored car. 

12 



Mr. Griffin. Who participated in that decision? 

Chief Batchelob. Chief Curry, Chief Stevenson, Captain Fritz, I believe — I 
was not in there when it was discussed. 

Mr. Griffin. After you talked to Fleming the second time what did you do? 

Chief Batchelob. Then he said he would send them over, and we went down 
there to get the cars lined up. This must have been, oh, probably 10:45, 10:30 
to 10:45. I went downstairs and I saw the basement well covered. We had a 
man at the top of the ramp on Main Street. We had several men in the base- 
ment leading into the garage area just before you get to the jail office, and I 
went through there, and Stevenson was with me. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me interrupt you here. Chief. I think I will pull out an- 
other map so that we can mark it. I am going to mark this map, for the 
purpose of identification, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Deposi- 
tion Exhibit 5001." Now I want you to use this exhibit, Chief, to indicate 
what you saw on this second trip downstairs, which you indicated would be 
what time? 

Chief Batchelob. I came out of the elevator into the basement and saw a 
number of officers across this area right here. There were several detectives. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Would you mark that with "X's"? 

Chief Batchelor. [Marking.] Detective there. We walked through here. 
We noticed these cameras had been moved out. 

Mr. Griffin. You are talking about the passageway past the jail office? 

Chief Batchelor. Past this jail office here. I noticed that inside the jail 
office there were three or four photographers inside the jail office. 

Mr. Griffin. At that point, you were at the jail office door nearest to the ramp 
driveway, and you looked in that door and you saw some news people? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes ; photographers. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you recognize any of them? 

Chief BATCHEax>R. I don't recall them. We went in there and moved them 
out. We went and instructed the jail supervisor that there was to be no one 
in that jail office except officers. 

Mr. Griffin. Who was the supervisor? 

Chief Batchelor. Lieutenant Wiggins. And we moved them out and we 
instructed the reporters, and there were a number of them down there at that 
time, by no means all of them, that — later there were, but there was a good 
many — we told them they would have to stand back over here. 

Mr. Griffin. That is against the railing? 

Chief Batchelor. Along the railing. And they had set up two TV cameras 
behind this railing. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you mark with an "S," where the two cameras were set 
up? 

Chief Batchelor. [Marking.] Then there was another one right here. 

Mr. Griffin. Was that third camera there when you came down at 10 :45? 

Chief Batchelob. I don't think so. That was the one sitting over there. 
These were the two sitting out here. 

Mr. Griffin. Now the two cameras that you placed there had been originally 
near the record room? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. When did you see them near the record room? When you came 
in in the morning? 

Chief Batchelob. No. That trip down after we came down. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Would you take Exhibit 5000, and would you mark those two 
TV cameras that you saw on the first trip? 

Chief Batchelob. [Marks.] 

Mr. Gbiffin. I believe you said that that time was 9 :15? 

Chief BATCHBa.oB. Yes ; now they had been moved here. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Behind the railing? 

Chief Batchelob. Behind the railing, and this was one sitting here. That was 
dead. 

Mr. Gbiffin. You are marking in the entrance to the garage off the Main 
Street ramp? 

Chief Batchelob. Yes. 

13 



Mr. Geiffin. That camera that you are marking there in the garage? 

Chief Batchelob. Not operating. 

Mr. Griffin. By that, do you mean that the 

Chief Batchelor. It wasn't hooked up. 

Mr. Griffin. But the other two cameras which you have marked behind 
the railing, were they taking shots when you walked down? 

Chief Batchelor. No ; I don't know that they were at that time. They didn't 
have any' lights on, no floodlights on, and they had been told to keep their 
floodlights off. They didn't turn them on. 

Mr. Griffin. Prior to the time that you came down on the second trip at 
about 10 :45, did you discuss with anybody up on the third floor where you 
wanted these TV people placed and what you wanted done with the lights? 

Chief Batchelor. We told the men down here, and we told the reporters 
down here, just kind of announced to them. 

Mr. Griffin. As you walked down? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. Some of them — one of the supervisors came in and 
said they couldn't get them all along here and wanted to know if it would be 
all right to put them along here? 

Mr. Griffin. You are indicating at the bottom of the Main Street ramp? 

Chief Batchelor. Main Street entrance ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. Between the railing and jail oflBce? 

Chief Batchelor. And the wall. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. They wanted to put their cameras there? 

Chief Batchelor. No ; it wasn't cameras. They just wanted to stand there. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you tell them? 

Chief Batchelor. Since we couldn't get them in there, he told them if they 
would stay back, they could stay there. And there were some officers that were 
stationed along there to hold them back. 

Mr. Griffin. But your original hope was that all of the news media people 
could be in the entrance to the garage? 

Chief Batchelor. And they were .scattered along here, too. Scattered along 
the entrance into the garage itself and along here, but some of them, there 
just wasn't room for them, and some got across here. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain downstairs on this second trip? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't think this is the second trip. I think, well, I guess 
it is. But I came down here, and Stevenson and I looked this thing over. 

Mr. Griffin. You are going to have to indicate in words. 

Chief Batchelor. We looked over the basement to see that the security was 
in order. I noticed an officer at the Main Street ramp. 

We walked up the Commerce Street ramp and noticed a crowd of people across 
Commerce Street, and was told by one of the supervisors that they were keeping 
them across there, and that they allowed no one on the side next to the police 
station of the city hall except officers. And the only people over here were 
either reservists or regular offi..ers. They had officers across the street. Chief 
Lunday told me they had officers down at the courthouse across from the jail 
entrance. Was keeping that crowd back there. 

Mr. Griffin. Now as you looked along the sidewalk on the north side of Com- 
merce Street, from the Commerce Street ramp to Pearl — from the Commerce 
Street ramp to Pearl Expressway — in other words, in the direction of the 
municipal building, could you see how the police officers were spaced, and how 
many officers were along the north side of Commerce Street? 

Chief Batchelor. Well, it is a good ways to Pearl, and the crowd didn't 
extend anywhere near down to Pearl Street. It was mostly just across from the 
building up to Harwood Street rather than Pearl. There weren't that many 
people there. It wasn't like a parade. I guess there were, oh, a couple of 
hundred i)eople across there, perhaps. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know whether or not there was a police officer at the 
comer of Pearl and Commerce? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't know. I don't remember whether there was or not. 
I'm sure there must have been one stationed there. 

Mr. Griffin. When you walked out on the sidewalk and were talking about 
this 10:45 trip down to the basement, what did you do? 

14 



Chief Batcheloe. I turned around and walked back in tliere. Tliey liad 
parked Chief Curry's car out east of the Commerce Street ramp on the street, 
double parked, parallel to some parked cars that were already there. Then I 
drove my car out of the basement and parked it west of the Commerce Street 
ramp exit, and I double parked it also right behind his, the intention being that 
when this convoy came out, that he would lead off and I would drop in behind 
Chief Curry with Chief Stevenson. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you mark on the map where Chief Curry's car was and 
where your car was placed on Commerce Street? 

Chief Batchelor. This confuses me a little here. There is not any offset. 

Mr. Griffin. Unfortunately, this black line that confuses you represents a 
basement wall. It doesn't represent the street. 

Chief Batchelor. [Marks on map.] 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after you moved your car out on Commerce 
Street? 

Chief Batchelor. Shortly after that just within a few minutes these armored 
cars arrived. 

Mr. Griffin. Where were you standing when the armored cars arrived? 

Chief Batchelor. I was in the basement, but somebody told me down there, 
shouted that these armored cars had arrived, so I came up again out of the 
ramp to look at the two cars to see which one we wanted. I looked in the inside 
of the larger armored car and decided that this one is the one we would have 
to use because it had room not only for the prisoner, but two guards to be placed 
in there with him. 

And this one — Mr. Hall, I believe is his name — I think it is Mr. Hall that 
drove the truck up there. And this truck was too large or too tall to drive 
clear to the foot of the basement ramp. It wouldn't clear this ceiling at that 
point, so I asked Mr. Hall to back it in, and he started backing it in, and he 
got the truck inside of the ramp with all of the body inside and the cab on the 
outside, on the sidewalk. He stopped and suggested that he not go to the 
bottom of the ramp with it because of its weight. He was afraid that in trying 
to pull out, he might kill the motor and stall it on the ramp, and suggested that 
since it blocked the entrance, if we could use it from that point, he would 
rather it go from that point. 

Mr. Griffin. At the point this conversation took place, had you or anyone 
else to your knowledge told Hall what route would be taken? 

Chief Batchelor. No ; we told him he would follow a lead car. and pointed 
out the car that he would follow. 

Mr. Griffin. At that point, did you indicate to him how soon it would be 
before Oswald would be brought down? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir ; this truck was parked in the ramp, and I thought 
that this would be a safe place to park it because on one side of the truck next 
to the west wall of the ramp there was only about 12 inches of space. And be- 
tween the truck and the east wall, there was only 18 to 24 inches of space. I 
placed an officer between the west wall and the truck, which totally blocked it. 
And I placed two officers between the truck and the east wall, and that totally 
blocked that. Then I believe it was Lieutenant Smart and I got in the truck 
and searched it. We found a soft drink bottle in the truck, which we took out. 
I found a loose bolt lying on the floor, which I took out. 

There was a device on the back side of the truck which was sort of a gauge 
and a lever which I didn't understand what it was and I asked Mr. Hall what 
that was, and he said it was an emergency brake in the event something hap- 
pened to the driver, that whoever was in the back of the truck could pull that 
lever and stop the truck. We got these items out of the truck and took them 
away, left the back doors of the truck open to receive the prisoner, and then I 
went back down to the foot of the ramp and waited, and in a few minutes 
shortly after the arrival of the truck. Chief Stevenson came down, and this 
was, oh, nearly 11 :30. It was just a matter of minutes before — and told 
me of the change of plans, and that they were going to send the truck in convoy 
down through Elm Street, and that the car carrying 

Mr. Griffin. You mean Main Street? 

Chief Batchelor. No; Elm Street, and that the truck carrying Oswald and 

15 



a car of detectives would drop out of the convoy, out on Main Street and drive 
down Main Street by themselves. In other words, the truck was to be a decoy, 
and the lead car and all the other cars would follow it on down Elm Street, while 
the car carrying the prisoner would go down Main Street. 

Mr. Griffin. What security was there going to beV 

Chief Batchelob. We had moved the officers over from Elm Street to Main 
Street on the corner. The only security would have been a car carrying detec- 
tives, following the car carrying the prisoner and detectives. 

Mr. Griffin. How were the officers moved, by a radio dispatcher, or was 
somebody sent out? 

Chief Batchelob. A sergeant was sent out, a three-wheeler. Talbert had it 
done. I don't recall who did that. 

Mr. Geiffin. Now, did you know at this point whether there was an officer 
stationed at the corner of Main and Commerce? Main and Pearl Expressway? 

Chief Batchelob. No ; I don't know whether there was or not. 

( Short recess had. ) 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Griffin. Why don't we state this for the record, that we have had a 
recess and an off-the-record discussion between Mr. Griffin and Chief Batchelor, 
and so that the record may be clear about where the policemen who were to 
guard the route which was originally planned for the transfer of Oswald, on 
the streets of the city of Dallas, I will let Chief Batchelor at this time explain 
where they were originally to be stationed, and where they were moved to. 

Chief Batchelor. They were originally stationed along Elm Street, and later 
were moved to Main Street where the prisoner would actually go. 

Mr. Griffin. I believe that before we took the recess that I was asking you 
if at the time that you were down in the basement and examining the armored 
car, you were aware that a man was or was not stationed at the comer of 
Main and Pearl Expressway? 

Chief Batchelor. I do not know. I was not aware. I hadn't given that any 
thought at the time. Actually, Main and Expressway would pose no traffic 
problem of a turning movement, at that point, because Pearl Expressway, which 
is a one-way street, and the convoy would have been next to the curb, and it 
would pose no problem at this point, trafficwise. 

Mr. Griffin. When Chief Stevenson came downstairs and told you that the 
route had been changed, where did he tell you that the caravan would turn off 
Commerce Street? 

Chief Batchelob. On Central Expressway. 

Mr. Griffin. When it turned left on Central Expressway, where would it 
next turn? 

Chief Batchelor. The convoy would go to Elm Street, but the prisoner and 
a car of detectives would turn off at Main. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you discuss with him the reasoning behind this decoy? 

Chief Batchelor. I merely asked him why the change, and he said they 
decided to change it up in the Homicide Bureau in a discussion with Chief 
Curry, because if anyone attacked, they would have the prisoner in a car 
separate from the convoy and the public would not know this, and they thought 
this would be a wise move. 

Mr. Griffin. Now you all were aware that the TV cameras were going to be 
focusing on the car or the vehicle that Oswald was placed in, didn't you? The 
people in the downtown streets wouldn't be able to see that, but there were also 
newsmen dovsTi there who were broadcasting and they would be able to tell 
people listening in on the radio what car? 

Chief Batchelor. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with moving 
the prisoner. 

Mr. Griffin. I didn't mean to argue with you, chief. 

Chief Batchelor. I didn't make the decision and I don't know whether it was 
wise or not. It is a moot question now. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, now, what next happened after you talked with Chief 
Stevenson about this change in plan? 

Chief Batchelor. This happened when he told me about it, just moments 
before they actually brought him down, and he told me they were bringing a 

16 



car up on the ramp, two cars up on the ramp, one to carry the prisoner and one 
to carry the detectives. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me go back one bit here. You stated that you came down. 
This one time you are talking about was an episode where you went through 
the armored car, and this would have been your third trip downstairs? 

Chief Batchelor. And my last one. 

Mr. Griffin. And your last one. Now the first trip that you came down the 
stairs was when you saw these reserve officers over by the elevators? 

Chief Batchelor. Actually, that was the second trip down, I believe. 

Mr. Griffin. That would have been about what time? 

Chief Batchelor. Oh, probably 10 or 10 :15, somewhere along in there. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. So that the trip that we have been referring to in the 
past, the 10 :45 trip, is really most clearly distinguished by the 

Chief Batchelor. I may be a little mixed up on my time, but the last trip, 
the trip we are talking about when we searched the armored car and put that in 
place, that was fairly close to the movement of the prisoner, and I would say 
somewhere around 10 :45 to 11 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Now that happened somewhere around 11 :20? 

Chief Batchelor. About 10 :45. 

Mr. Griffin. But you never went back upstairs, from the time that you moved 
your automobile up onto Commerce Street and the time that you searched the 
armored car? 

/Chief Batchelor. No ; Chief Stevenson did, but I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. How long would you say you were downstairs from the time 
that you walked down and moved your car out on the street and Oswald 
arrived? 

Chief Batchelor. Possibly 30 minutes or 35. 

Mr. Griffin. Now after you finished examining the armored car and you 
talked with Chief Stevenson, did you get a chance to look at the placement of the 
news personnel, the news media people in the basement? 

Chief Batchelor. Shortly before he came down, yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now looking toward the Main Street ramp, how many rows deep, 
if there was more than one row at all, were the policemen who were blocking 
the Main Street ramp? 

Chief Batchelor. How many rows deep were the policemen? 

Mr. Griffin. I'm sorry, the news people, if you understand what I mean? 

Chief Batchelor. There was about, as I remember it, about two deep along 
there. Some places there might have been a third man behind, but most about 
two deep. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you come here and mark along the Main Street ramp 
about how deep these people were? 

Chief Batchexor. [Marking.] There weren't many along there because there 
were cameras there. 

Mr. Griffin. How many people would you estimate were in that area there? 

Chief Batchelor. Oh, there couldn't have been too many in that particular 
area there. It is only 15 feet wide, maybe 20 or 25 in there, maybe 30. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, just before Oswald was brought down, where were the 
rest of the news people placed? 

Chief Batchelor. They were along here. 

Mr. Griffin. That is blocking the garage entrance? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. About how many people would you say were in that area? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't know. Altogether there must have been, gee, we had 
around 70 policemen in that basement altogether, and there must have been 60 
or 70 reporters and photographers and press people. They were fairly deep 
across here. But this is wider and they were two or three deep across there. 

Mr. Griffin. You want to mark in there where you have indicated? 

Chief Batchelor. [Marks chart.] 

Mr. Griffin. Would you say that they were deeper across the entrance to 
the garage than they were blocking the Main Street ramp, or were they about the 
same? 

17 



Chief Batchelor. I wasn't paying too close attention to how deep they were. 
There was more than one line of them. 

Mr. Griffin. There was? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes; they were two to three deep across here [marking]. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there police officers in there also? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes ; there was police officers intermingling all along here. 

Mr. Griffin. Had you given any instructions to the police officers up to this 
point as to how they should stand in relationship, where they should be facing? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now after talking with Chief Stevenson, what next happened? 

Chief Batchelor. Almost immediately the car containing Lieutenant Pierce 
and I believe Sergeant Maxey pulled out of here, and these people had to step 
back, and they pulled out, and the detective cars were pulled here in on the 
ramp and backed into position. 

Mr. Griffin. Chief, at this point, just before Oswald was brought down, were 
there any automobiles in the portion of the garage which would be the north 
half of the garage, do you recall? 

Chief Batchelor. As I recall it, there were one or two vehicles parked back 
in here, police vehicles. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Were there any police vehicles, and if you don't have 
■any recollection, state that. Do you recall if there were any police vehicles 
along the railing of the Main Street ramp? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall. If there were, they were back from this 
entrance. There weren't any in the immediate entrance to the jail door. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if there were any people other than the people 
manning these TV cameras, behind the railing? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall that. I don't think there were, because these 
people here went up to just about where the cameras were. This curved a little 
bit around here. It wasn't just a straight line. It would curve a little bit like 
this, then, but they were standing away from the front of those cameras, be- 
cause those cameras were on a tripod at a level on the floor, which was lower 
than this ramp level. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, as Pierce and Maxey's car went up the ramp, did you 
watch it go up the ramp? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do as it went up the ramp? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall. I was up here. I was more concerned with 
this truck here and getting this truck out of there when this thing started. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you watch Pierce and Maxey's car go through the line of 
newsmen? 

Chief Batchelor. I saw it. I wasn't 

Mr. Griffin. Were you paying any attention? 

Chief Batchelor. Not particularly. I do remember seeing it. 

Mr. Griffin. After Pierce and Maxey's car broke through the line of news- 
men, what do you remember next happening? 

Chief Batchelor. I remember backing these or pulling up these two detective 
cars that were to carry Oswald, and one detective pulled up here a little ways, 
and he had to pull up a little further so this one could get up, and they then 
backed up. And this one had hardly gotten in place, barely had stopped, when 
somebody shouted, "Here he comes." 

Mr. Griffin. All right, now, are you sure — how certain are you that these 
two detective cars pulled out after Pierce and Maxey? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't think Pierce and Maxey could have gotten out with 
those two detective cars where they were. 

Mr. Griffin. Sounds pretty good to me. 

Chief Batchelor. While they were in place, they couldn't have pulled around 
here, because they were blocking this entrance here. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, who drove those two detective cars? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall. Men out of the Homicide Bureau, but I 
don't know which ones. 

Mr. Griffin. Are they listed in this report, do you recall? 

18 



Chief Batchelor. I don't think they are listed in that report. I am pretty 
sure they are not. 

Mr. Griffin. Detective Brown? 

Chief Batchelor. Where do you see that? 

Mr. Griffin. It is on page 32. "Stevenson then proceeded across the drive- 
way to the entrance to the garage where Detective C. W. Brown, driving one 
car, and Detective Dhority, driving the second car, was preparing to pull the 
cars behind the armored car." Do you remember Brown or Dhority walking 
to the cars in the basement? 

Chief Batchelor. I wasn't directing my attention to them at the moment 
they did that. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know or have you heard whether they were sitting in 
those cars for a long period of time, or a few minutes, or whether they 

Chief Batchelor. I don't know, but I imagine so. I think they came down 
for that express purpose, after this plan was changed. 

Mr. Griffin. Where were you standing as the rear car — that is, the car closest 
to the exit from the jail ofl5ce 

Chief Batchelor. I was standing over in here. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you place an "X" on the map where you were standing? 

Chief Batchelor. Well, I don't remember exactly where I was standing at 
the time that they pulled those cars up, but I think I was standing over here, 
and then moved to this position as they were backing in, because I had been 
talking to Chief Stevenson just about that time, and we were talking right 
up in here. 

Mr. Griffin. Now at the time you heard the shots fired, would you place on 
this map where these two automobiles were and where you were standing? 

Chief Batchelor. One car was right here, approximately, and the other car 
was ahead of it, and I am not drawing this in very good proportion, but this 
is the order they were in, and I was standing, and this I know in good order, 
because I was standing about midway of this thing, which was along about the 
back fender of this car, that I was standing right along here. But these cars 
were larger than that. 

Mr. Griffin. Why don't you cross out that Ford car there and redraw it up 
where it was? 

Chief Batchelor. I was standing here, and this one was back here more in 
this position. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you put your name where you have made the circle? 

Chief Batohelor. (Marks on chart.) 

Mr. Griffin. Now do you remember what other oflBcers or people were around 
you? 

Chief Batchelor. No; I don't remember who. There was a whole bunch of 
people. 

Mr. Griffin. What happened when you heard the shot fired? What did you 
do? 

Chief Batchelor. Well, actually before the shot was fired, when I was stand- 
ing along here, and when somebody shouted, "Here he comes." I started to 
go to that truck, that armored truck and close the doors on it, the back doors 
so it could take off. And I turned to do that when I heard the shot. I hadn't 
taken over a step or two over to the door when he was shot. 

Mr. Griffin. Then what did you do? 

Chief Batchelor. I turned around and looked back and came over there. 
There was a whole group of people had him down. It was a big 

Mr. Griffin. Had Ruby down? 

Chief Batchelor. Had Ruby down. They had pulled Oswald into the jail 
office, and then pulled Ruby in behind him. 

I went into the jail office to look at them, and they had Ruby down on the 
floor on his back and was trying to handcuff him. 

Mr. Griffin. Let's focus on the time when they had Ruby down on the 
ground out there on the ramp, the ramp area. Where did you stand at that 
point? 

Chief Batchelor. I stood off in the crowd. I didn't even see what was going 
on. There was such a crowd. 

19 



Mr. Gbiffin. Did you hear Ruby say anything at that point? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear any of the police officers say anything? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir ; not when I wallied right up there to it. But I did 
hear someone shout, "Jack, don't you so-and-so," but this was before they got him 
down. I mean, this was almost simultaneous with the shot. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you follow Ruby and Oswald into the jail office then? 

Chief Batchelor. After a little bit, a minute or two after, I remained in the 
jail office and asked Lieutenant Wiggins if they had called an ambulance, and 
he said they had. 

I walked over and looked at Oswald, and this intern had come in and was 
giving him some pressure on his lower rib section. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did you see Ruby at that time? 

Chief Batchexor. I saw him on the floor. I couldn't see him too well. There 
was several men on top. He was still struggling in the jail office, but they had 
already gotten the gun away from him and they were trying to get him hand- 
cuffed and get him down and laying still, but he was fighting them. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear him say anything? 

Chief Batchelor. No ; I don't recall anything he said. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear the officers say anything to him? 

Chief Batchelor. No. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain there? 

Chief Batchelor. Just a few minutes. The ambulance came almost imme- 
diately. It was just — I walked out of there before the ambulance came and 
walked back. Someone shouted right after this happened, and there was a lot 
of confusion, and someone shouted, "Don't let anybody out." 

There were a bunch of reporters that started running like they were frightened. 
T supposse they were running to telephones, but they tried to run up the Main 
Street ramp, and I remember very clearly the officer at the top of the ramp 
pulling his gun and said, "Get back down." 

They turned around and walked back down, but most of them escaped through 
the corridor. Not out the ramp, but went out through the corridor. 

Mr. Griffin. This is the corridor that leads from the record room to Com- 
merce Street? 

Chief Batchelor. Well, yes. They escaped out the corridor off the hallway 
that leads in front of the jail office into the Records Bureau, and then to Com- 
merce Street. 

Mr. Griffin. Did they escape out Commerce Street? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't know where they went from there, whether they 
went upstairs to use the telephone, or out in the street. But there would have 
been nobody over there that heard the command not to let them out. This 
was kind of a spontaneous command. 

Mr. Griffin. What percentage of people would you say got out of the base- 
ment? News media people got out of the basement that way? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't know. They scattered pretty quickly. Still a lot 
hung around after it was over. I would say half, at least, got out that way. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs in 
the elevator? 

Chief Batchelor. Was I in the jail office when he was taken upstairs? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Chief BATCHBa^OR. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Where were you? 

Chief Batchelor. I went as soon as the ambulance came and got him, I ran up 
the ramp and told him to get that truck out of there, that it was blocking the 
entrance to the ramp, and then I left and went upstairs and told Chief Ourry 
what happened. By the time I got up there, somebody called him and he knew 
what happened. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do next? 

Chief Batchelor. Lord, I don't remember what I did next. We sat there kind 
of dumbfounded for a while. 

Mr. Griffin. Did there come a time during the rest of the day when you talked 
with Ruby? 

20 



Chief Batchelob. I never did talk with Ruby. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall the rumors, stories that began to come In about 
how Ruby got down into the basement? 

Chief Batchelor. In the course of the next day or two we heard lots of 
rumors that he had a press card. This was the prevailing rumor, that he had 
a press card, but there wasn't a press card found on him. 

Mr. Griffin. I am trying to direct your attention to the events fairly close 
after the time of, the time Oswald was shot. What did you do in connection 
with attempting to find out how Ruby got down in that basement? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't know that I did anything specifically to try to find 
that out. We began to think in terms of an overall investigation into the 
matter. 

Mr. Griffin. Did Chief Curry convene any sort of meeting or gather together 
any of the top oflScers to discuss this? 

Chief Batchelor. He discussed it with Lumpkin and Stevenson and I. I 
don't recall exactly when this happened, whether it happened just — I am sure 
it didn't happen just immediately after it happened, because there were ob- 
vious things that would take place first, and that would be the investigation, 
that homicide would carry on, an interrogation of Ruby himself. 

We even got some rumors the next day that some of our officers had bor- 
rowed money from a bank and Ruby was a cosigner on the note, and we ran 
a check at every bank in Dallas, but the banks where this — the most probable 
one was the Republic Bank. We ran a check there by sending the name of 
everybody that was in that basement over to the bank, and having them check 
for us and see if they had any notes on these people. 

We also checked with, I believe, the Mercantile, and we checked with the 
Oak Cliff Bank and Trust Co., because Ruby happened to live out in that area. 

We didn't know whether he had an account, but none of them found any- 
thing to date. 

Mr. Griffin. This meeting or a little conference that you referred to that you 
and Ourry and Lumpkin and Stevenson had, about how long after Oswald was 
shot did this occur? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't remember whether that was that day or the next 
day, but it resulted in Chief Curry pulling some men out of the special service 
division with Captain Jones in charge, and we had about six men on the team 
besides the captain to investigate every aspect of this, which was in terms 
of locating all of the people that were assigned down there, locating as many 
of the press as they knew were down there, and getting statements from all 
of these people. Then also we discovered this matter of this money order, 
and we followed that thing out. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you personally talk with Officer Dean at any time on the 
Sunday that Oswald was shot? After Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk to Dean? 

Chief Batchelor. Dean said something to me, and I don't remember whether 
it was Sunday or not I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sometime, or evening, 
to the effect that he had been up and talked to Ruby with Mr. Sorrels, I be- 
lieve was present there, and that Ruby told him he came down that ramp. 

He told him that an officer, that a car came in, and an officer stopped and 
talked vnth the fellows in the car, and while he was talking to them, he walked 
down there. 

There is nothing to indicate that the officer did talk to the officers that went 
out other than maybe to speak to them. I mean, but it appears evident now 
that while the officer did walk away momentarily a few feet from the entrance 
is when he got in. 

Mr. Griffin. When Dean made this statement to you, did you know that 
he had spoken to a newspaper reporter also? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know whether this conversation you had with Dean 
was before or after he spoke to the newspaper people? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir ; I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have an occasion to talk with an officer by the name 
of Newman that day? 

Chief Batchelor. No. 

21 



Mr. Griffin. Did you have occasion to talk to Officer Vaughn on that day? 

Chief Batchelor. No ; over on top of the ramp? 

Mr. Griffin Yes. 

Chief Batchelor. No ; as a matter of fact, I never have tallied with Vaughn. 
And I wasn't talking to Dean in the nature of interrogating. He voluntarily 
told me this. 

Mr. Griffin. Was anybody else present when Dean told you that? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall that there was. I don't think there was. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where this conversation occurred? 

Chief Batchelor. No; it was there in the city hall, but I don't remember 
exactly where. It was probably up on the third floor. 

Mr. Griffin. Now I am going to mark for identification, "Dallas, Tex., Chief 
Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5002." 

Can you tell us briefiy what that is. Chief? 

Chief Batchelor. That is a monthly assignment board or bulletin, which 
has the names of all the members of the police department in it and their as- 
signments for the month of November 1963. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that a true and accurate roster of the people who were em- 
ployed in the department on the day that Ruby shot Oswiald? 

Chief Batchelor. It would be, with the exception of any few that might have 
been reassigned, or any few that might have, in the course of the month, been 
transferred from one division to another, which occurs frequently. But for 
the most part it is correct. 

Mr. Griffin. Or, also a few that had been hired? 

Chief Batchelor. Or a few that had been hired during that month. They are 
not on there : yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now you and I have spoken at some length during the last day, 
not counting the length of time we spent here. Do you recall that in your oflSce 
this morning we talked some about security measures in the protection of the 
President? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any suggestions that you would make as to how, 
as a result of your experience, you think the President might be more effectively 
protected? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't know how you would correct this exactly. One 
of the problems that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a short 
time to do some of the planning that we had. 

We didn't know until just one afternoon, actually, in terms of Love Field 
security, actually vs^here the President's plane would be placed. 

We didn't know until 2 days before his arrival v/hat the parade route would 
be. This posed some problem in terms of assignment of personnel and properly 
instructing personnel as to what their procedures should be. 

I think one thing that would be helpful would be for a standard general pro- 
cedure of things that those responsible for protection of the President could 
put out to police departments such as certain standard types of coverage that 
would alway apply. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you give us any example from your own experience where 
this would have been useful on this unfortunate trip? 

Chief Batchelor. One thing you need in a situation like this is explicit 
written instructions to oflBcers as to such things as watching the crowd rather 
than the President. 

This is a general accepted thing in most police departments. 
Sometimes you have new personnel that comes in and they need to be told 
this specifically. We had an instance in which we were asked to guard all 
of the overi)asses, railroad and vehicular, and we instructed the officers verbally 
that they were to let no unauthorized personnel on these overpasses. But there 
was no definition of what "authorized personnel" was. 

And in one case, there were people on an overpass which the President had 
never reached. 

Mr. Griffin. Was this the triple railroad overpass at the base of Elm Street? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes ; they would have just gone under, or would have gone 

under momentarily had he not been shot. 

22 



There were a number of railroad track workers on this overpass, and we 
had officers up there, but they considered them to be authorized personnel be- 
cause they worked for the railroad, and they wore all lined along there watching 
for the parade which never did go under them. 

Mr. Griffin. How many persons do you remember having been up there? 

Chief Batchelob. I was not there. I heard about it. I understand there 
were probably 10 or 12 people up there. But actually, there should be nobody 
over the immediate route the President goes under. But there are certainly, 
there seems to me. certain generally accepted procedures that, and certain 
general types of security that every police department ought to be aware of, that 
is standard operating procedure, plus whatever specific thing that the various 
circumstances might want done ; some sort of suggested procedure on their 
part, with it published, that might be helpful to police organizations. 

Mr. Griffin. I want to go off the record here a moment. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Griffin. Let's go on the record on this. 

We have been speaking off the record about other suggestions which Chief 
Batchelor has, and one of the things that he has pointed out is that there is 
not enough advance notice of what the Presidential route is going to be to 
enable the police department to satisfactorily handle the administrative prob- 
lems of selecting people to place them at particular intersections. 

Do you want to add any more to that statement that I have made of what 
you have just told me? 

Chief Batchelor. No. I realize there is another asi^ect on this too, on the 
part of the Secret Service, that they want, that is, that they don't want too 
much advance notice to the public. This is the reason I am not criticizing. 

( Further discussion off the record. ) 

Mr. Griffin. Let me go on the record and ask you a question here. Do you 
think, Chief, it would have been possible to station people in the middle of 
the downtown block vdth the instructions to watch various buildings in a 
periphery of their vision. 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. This would be feasible. We did have men in the 
middle of the downtown, several of them in each block, they were primarily 
watching the crowd of people rather than the windows. 

When you are in an area of skyscrapers and you are standing right at the 
foot of these skyscrapers, you couldn't see windows too far up more than just a 
few floors, but we did have men in the middle of the block, but they weren't 
instructed to watch the windows as much as they were to watch the people. 

Mr. Griffin. Did these men actually have any specific instructions as to how 
they were to go about watching the people or the windows? 

Chief Batchelor. We had exi>erienced detectives down there in the immediate 
block watching in the crowd and then we had some reservists, too, and we had 
instructed our people in the course of training that when somebody comes by, 
that you are supposed to secure, that you are not supposed to watch that 
person, but supposed to watch the crowd. 

Whether all of them remember this or not — when you don't get a President 
here but every number of years, why you don't know. That is the reason I 
think that in some places where they have these kind of people frequently, 
this is probably routine. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have men stationed in the neighborhood of Elm and 
Houston and the School Book DeiX)sitory that were instructed to be watching 
the crowds? 

Chief Batchelor. No, sir ; I don't think anyone was stationed below Houston 
Street. At that point, I don't know whether any crowd along that particular 
point was even anticipated or not. It was away from the business section and 
it was not any buildings on either side of the street there, actually. 

The School Book Depository faces on Elm Street, which is parallel to the 
Elm Street ramp that goes under the triple underpass. 

It is a couple of hundred feet across from the street to that Building and 
there wasn't anybody placed down there. 

23 

731-228 O— 64— VOL XII 3 



Mr. Griffin. You don't recall that there was a police car stationed either 
along Elm Street or Houston near that intersection? 

Chief Batchelor. There was a police car that preceded the two of them, 
as a matter of fact, that preceded the Presidential convoy. One was a quarter of 
a mile ahead and one was back of that one. 

Mr. Griffin. I am referring to a stationary car at the intersection. 

Chief Batchelor. No ; there wasn't one, that I know of. 

Mr. Griffin. Okay, I think that is it. 



TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR RESUMED 

The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 12 :30 p.m., on 
April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan 
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the 
President's Commission. 

Mr. Hubert. Chief Batchelor, I think that you made a deposition before Burt 
Griffin, a member of the advisory staff of the President's Commission, now on 
March 23, 1964, is that not a fact, sir? 

Chief Batchelor. That is correct. 

Mr. Hubert. I think also that you have now read the transcript of that depo- 
sition and that you have made certain corrections of typographical errors in 
pen and ink and by initialing those. Yoti advise me now that you are willing to 
sign the deposition except that there are two statements, one on page 199, 
and one on page 219, that you wish to clarify, or change; is that correct? 

Chief Batchelor. That is correct. 

Mr. Hubert. Now chief, are you willing to consider this deposition as a con- 
tinuation of the deposition taken by Mr. Griffin on the 23d? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Are you willing also to waive any notices that you would be 
entitled to before we begin this continuation of the deposition? 

Chief Batchelor. That's correct. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you consider yourself to be under the same oath that you 
were at the time you made the deposition before Mr. Griffin? 

Chief Batchexor. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir. Now, I understand that you wish to comment, 
or change the following : On page 199, lines 9 and 10 read as follows : 

"Chief Batchelor. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with moving 
the prisoner." 

Now, Chief, what do you say about what I have just read? 

Chief Batchelor. That statement was inadvertently incorrect. I wished to 
say that I had nothing to do with changing the plans of moving the prisoner. 

Mr. Hubert. Now turning to page 219, we find that lines 11 through 14 read 
as follows, to wit : 

"I don't know how you would correct this exactly. 'One of the problems that 
we experienced was the fact that such, of such a short time to do some of 
planning that we did' ". 

Do you wish to make a comment about that statement, sir? 

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall the exact language I used in the statement, 
but the sentence is grammatically incorrect. It should read : 

"One of the problems that we experienced was the fact that we had such a 
short time to do some of the planning that we had to do." 

Mr. Hubert. Other than that. Chief, have you found that the transcription of 
your deposition is correct? 

Chief Batchelor. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir. Then, when these notes concerning the correc- 
tions have been typed out I think you will be in a position to sign the original 
deposition, now, making a notation that you signed it approving all except such 
as has been corrected this morning? 

24 



Chief Batchelob. That's correct. 

Mr. HuBEKT. And then you will also sign the second deposition, as it were, 
which is this morning's deposition? 
Chief Batchelob. Yes, sir. 
Mr. HuBEBT. Thank yoli, sir. 



TESTIMONY OF CHIEF JESSE E. CURRY 

The testimony of Chief Jesse E. Curry was taken at 9 :15 a.m., on April 15, 
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and 
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D, Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of 
the President's Commission. 

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Jesse E. Curry of the Dallas Police 
Department. 

Mr. Curry, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the advisory staff 
of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions 
of Executive Order of the President, No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the 
joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by 
the President's Commission and in conformance with the Executive order and 
the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, 
Mr. Curry. 

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to 
ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination 
of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. 

In particular, as to you, Mr. Curry, the nature of the inquiry today is to deter- 
mine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent 
facts you may know about the general inquiry of the security of Oswald, the 
transfer of Oswald, and so forth. 

Now, Mr. Curry, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of an 
informal request 

Mr. Cubby. Yes. 

Mr. Hubebt. By the Commission's General Counsel to appear here. It is my 
duty to state to you that under the rules adopted by the Commission, every 
witness who appears before the Commission is entitled to a 3-day written 
notice before- his deposition can be taken. The rules also provide, however, 
that the 3-day written notice can be waived if a witness wishes to waive it and 
go ahead and testify, so I ask you now if you are ready and willing to testify 
now and are willing to waive the 3-day notice? 

Mr. Cubby. I am. 

Mr. Hubebt. Will you raise your hand and stand, sir, so that you may be 
sworn? 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the 
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God? 

Mr. Cubby. I do. 

Mr. Hubebt. Would you state your full name? 

Mr. Cubby. Jesse Edward Curry. 

Mr. Hubebt. Your age, please, sir? 

Mr. Cubby, nfty years of age. 

Mr. Hubebt. Where do you reside? 

Mr. Cubby. 2508 Loving Avenue. 

Mr. Hubebt. Dallas? 

Mr. Cubby. Dallas, Tex. 

Mr. Hubebt. What is your present occupation, Chief? 

Mr. Cubby. Chief of Police, Dallas Police Department 

Mr. Hubebt. And how long have you been occupying that position? 

Mr. Cubby. Since January 20, 1960. 

Mr. Hubebt. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department 
altogether? 

25 



Mr. Curry. Since May 1, 1936. 

Mr. Hubert. And how did you begin? 

Mr. Curry. I began, I believe, as a traflSc police officer — well, I worked in a 
squad car a few days as a patrolman, and then worked as a traffic officer for 
several months. 

Mr. Hubert. How old were you when you began? 

Mr. Curry. Twenty-three — I lacked a few months being twenty-three. 

Mr. Hubert. What education have you. Chief? 

Mr. Curry. I graduated from the Dallas high schools — Dallas Technical High 
School. I did not go to college. I studied a short time — optometry a short time 
after that, after graduating from high school. 

Mr. Hubert. What employment did you have between leaving high school and 
joining the police force? 

Mr. Curry. I worked a short time for Vitalic Battery Co., as I recall, and 
at the time I entered the police field, I owned a small cleaning and pressing 
shop out in East Dallas, which I owned and operated. 

Mr. Hubert. Are you married? 

Mr. Curry. Yes; I am. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. You have a family? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you state who they are, how many children? 

Mr. Curry. I have three step-children — no, it's two step-children, one son of 
my own and one daughter of my own. 

Mr. Hubert. I take it that you're practically a lifetime resident of Dallas? 

Mr. Curry. Yes ; I moved here when I was less than a year old. 

Mr. Hubert. It appears to me from what you have said that you began at 
the bottom of the ranks in the police department? 

Mr. Curry. That's right. 

Mr. HtTBERT. And would it be fair to say that you worked your way through, 
as it were? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Up the line? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; I worked in practically every assignment the police de- 
partment has, and through civil service examinations was able to gain pro- 
motions to a detective, sergeant, lieutenant of police, captain of police, inspector 
of police, and inspector of police is the highest civil service rank obtainable. 

Mr. Hubert. When did you attain that rank, Mr. Curry, roughly? 

Mr. Curry. I believe it was about 1951, along about that as inspector — I don't 
recall exactly. 

Mr. Hubert. Does the obtaining of that rank in the civil service system in- 
volve special studies? 

Mr. Curry. Well, you must make some special studies in order to compete 
with the other men who are trying to reach promotion through examination. 
During these years I won a fellowship to Northwestern University Traffic 
Institute and attended that school in 1945-^6. I graduated from there. In 
1951 I was sent to the FBI National Academy in Washington, D.C., and I 
graduated from that school. 

Mr. Hubert. I wish you would tell us other schools or training sessions you 
have attended. 

Mr. Curry. Well, I've been to several schools conducted in the Dallas area. 
I have been to 2 weeks training school by the department of public safety 
in Austin. I have been to several schools conducted by Southern Methodist 
University and the FBI here in the Dallas area through the years. I have 
also taken correspondence training courses from the City Managers' Associa- 
tion, and I believe that's about the extent of my training. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you in service during the war, sir? 

Mr. Curry. I was in what was called the CPA, Civilian Pilot Training. It 
was a program that was open to people who were over combat age — in the Air 
Force. We did not receive any pay when we first went in. We volunteered 
our services and we were taught to fiy. We attended ground training school ; 
I was assigned to Gainesville Junior College and flew out of Gainesville, out 
of the airfield there. I was then sent to TCU in Fort Worth where I continued 

26 



my studies at TOU and flew out of Meacham Field, and then I was sent to 
Amarillo Air Force Base. We were not on the base, but we were assigned in 
that area and we waited there for, it seemed to me like 2 or 3 weeks and never 
received any training. We were then notified that we had an opportunity to 
either ask for release or discharge from the service because we understood — 
because of an oversupply of pilots, or else to remain in the program and be 
sent to various branches of the Air Force for various assignments. 

At that time, I, along with my buddy whose father advised us that he thought 
it was best for us to get out — we applied for a discharge, and I was discharged, 
so I was in this about 11 months, at which time I was discharged and I returned 
to Dallas and I reported back to my draft board, and that's the last contact 
that I had with my draft board. 

Mr. Hubert. And you went back to your duties? 

Mr. Ctjrry. I went back to my duties as police oflBcer. I was assigned as a 
detective at the time, and I worked for undercover a few months; I was then 
assigned as a sergeant in the traflBc division ; promoted to lieutenant of the 
traflic division ; subsequently promoted to captain of the traffic division. I was 
then assigned to a police training school. I attended the F^I school then. 

Upon my return from tJie FBI school, I completed an examination for pro- 
motion to inspector of police and was able to obtain the No. 1 position and was 
promoted to inspector of police, and assigned to the police training school. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, that examination and that promotion was civil service? 

Mr. CuRKY. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Under the laws of Texas? 

Mr. Curry. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. And perhaps it would be better if you would just continue test- 
ifying — to tell us the various stages. 

Mr. Cubby. I was assigned to the various training schools, had charge of the 
police training, and also i)ersonnel investigation. I was then appointed as- 
sistant chief of police in charge, which assignment is actually the second in 
command of the police department — that was in October of 1953. 

Hr. Hubert. Now, that is a non-civil-service position? 

Mr. Curry. That's an appointive job. 

Mr. Hubert. Who appointed you to that job? 

Mr. Curry. Well, the chief appointed me, I'm sure, on the approval of the 
city manager. 

Mr. Hubert. Who was the chief at that time? 

Mr. Curry. Carl F. Hansson [spelling], H-a-n-s-s-o-n. 

Mr. Hubert. All right; go on. 

Mr. Curry. I served in that capacity until Chief Hansson resigned, and at 
that time I was appointed chief of police. I was appointed acting chief of 
police in December and when his name was removed from the rolls in January 
1960, 1 was appointed chief of police. 

Mr. HUBE21T. He resigned voluntarily? 

Mr. Curry. Yes ; he did. 

Mr. Hubert. Was it because of old age? 

Mr. Curry. I don't know exactly why he resigned. He left us to go as execur 
tive secretary of the Citizens Traflic Commission here in Dallas, and he served in 
that capacity for some year or so and resigned from that capacity, and then he 
went as chief of the Mesquite Police Department and remained there a year or 
two and at the present time is in an advisory capacity at Richardson, Tex. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, you were second in command at the time you were ap- 
pointed chief of police? 

Mr. CuERY. That's true. 

Mr. Hubert. And you had been actually for some time? 

Mr. Curry. About 7 years. 

Mr. HuTBERT. Who was the city manager who appointed you? 

Mr. Curry. Elgin Crull, I believe he was at the time I was appointed. He 
was when I was appointed chief of police, because I recall — I don't recall exactly 
who was city manager at the time I was appointed assistant chief. I believe 
Chuck Ford, I believe, was. 

27 



Mr. HUBERT. Of course, as you said, the assistant chief of police and the chief 
of police, are non-civil service? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you still maintain civil service status in the event of a 
reduction? 

Mr. Curry. In a reduction? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Mr. Curry. In rank ; you are supposed to return to the rank vv^here you were 
when appointed. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, you, of course, as chief of police, have under you a number 
of assistant and deputy chiefs of police and then captains of the various divi- 
sions and so forth. Who made those appointments? 

Mr. Curry. They are under civil service except for the assistant chief and 
the deputy chiefs and I make those appointments. 

Mr. Hubert. You made those appointments? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. Now, I didn't make all the appointments, because some of 
them were in those positions when I was appointed chief. I appointed Batchelor 
as assistant chief of police and I appointed Fisher, who is in charge of radio 
patrol, as deputy chief of police, and I think the rest of them were in their 
positions when I was made chief and I left them there. 

Mr. Hubert. You had the authority to move them, I take it, but you chose to 
leave them there? 

Mr. Curry. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, everybody else was in his position by virtue of 
civil service? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I would like to direct your attention to the time when the 
Dallas Police Department first arrested Oswald, and, I assume, became responsi- 
ble for him and for his security. I believe that it was that he was arrested at 
the Texas Theatre? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And almost immediately moved to the Dallas Police Department 
offices? 

Mr. Curry. So I understand ; yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us what you know about the matter from that point 
on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative fashion. I will 
ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait until the end to fill in. 
We will see how it works out. Briefly, what we want to know is what you know 
about the whole thing. 

Mr. Curry. Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the Presidential 
caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels, 
and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and we were nearing the triple 
underpass in the western part of Dallas, and which is near Stemmons Express- 
way — it was necessary for us to move to Elm Street in order to get on the 
Stemmons Expressway to get the President's caravan down to the Trade Mart 
where they were going to have a luncheon. 

I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, and I 
didn't know — I didn't know exactly where this report came from, whether it 
was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that 
time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the Presi- 
dent's caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to 
be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer 
Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he 
said, "Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so." 

So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the nearest 
hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital and they 
were — the President, the Vice President and the Governor — were taken into the 
hospital and I remained at the hospital for — oh — some hour or so. 

At about 1 :15 that day — this first incident occurred about 12 :30 or so, and 
about 1 :15 I was notified that one of our officers had been shot, and a few 
minutes later was told that he was dead on arrival at the hospital. 

At that time we didn't know who shot him. I was just told it was in Oak 

28 



Oliflf. I was still at the hospital at this time and I was told by some of the 
Secret Service people, I don't recall who, to get my car ready and another oar 
ready to take the President — we were informed that President Kennedy had 
expired — and we were asked to have two automobiles standing by to take Presi- 
dent Johnson to Love Field. 

Mr. Hubert. Let me stop you and ask you this : When you had the news of 
the death of Tippit, or the shooting of Tippit, did you associate that in any way 
with the President's assassination? 

Mr. CtJRBT. No ; I didn't at the time. 

Mr. HuBEBT. All right, sir ; go on. 

Mr. CtTBBT. In .a little while President Johnson came out, and some of his 
aides, and got into my car and some of his other people came and got into another 
vehicle driven by Inspector Putnam of the Dallas Police Department, and we 
were instructed to go to Love Field, to get there by the nearest route with the 
least amount of noise, but to go there as quickly as we could. So I drove to Love 
Field and the President got out of the car with his group and went aboard the 
Presidential plane. 

Mr. HuBEET. Do you have any idea about what time you left the hospital to 
go to Love Field? 

Mr. Cubby. No. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Well, perhaps you can arrive at it this way ; you know the time 
you arrived there? 

Mr. Cubby. It seemed we were there about 30 minutes at the hospital — 30 
minutes or so, and we probably got there a little after 12 :30, so that would have 
been around a little after 1 :15, 1 believe. 

Mr. HuBEatT. It was a little after 1 :15 that you started to move to Love Field? 

Mr. Cubby. Yes. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Now, did you know Jack Ruby prior to that time? 

Mr. Cubby. No, sir ; I didn't. 

Mr. HuBEBT. You had never seen him? 

Mr. Cubby. If I had ever seen him, I didn't know it. I might have seen him 
but I didn't recognize him. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Of course, now, you know who Jack Ruby is ; you have seen him? 

Mr. Cubby. I have seen him in the courtroom. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Can you tell us whether or not among any of the people that you 
saw at the hospital anywihere, whether Jack Ruby was at the hospital? 

Mr. Cubby. If he was, I didn't know it. 

Mr. HuBEBT. That's what I'm asking — you didn't see the man that you now 
know to be Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Cubby. No, sir ; I didn't. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Do you know a reporter from the Washington, D.C., newspaper 
who is called Seth Kantor? 

Mr. Cubby. I believe he used to be in Dallas. 

Mr. HuBEBT. I believe he was, and moved on to Washington. 

Mr. Cubby. Yes. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Did you see him out there? 

Mr. Cubby. I don't recall who all I saw out there — I saw a number of people 
out there. If I saw him, I don't recall it. I very easily could have seen him 
out there. 

Mr. HuBEBT. And it follows from what you said before, of course, that you 
did not see Kantor with Ruby ? 

Mr. Cubby. No, sir. 

Mr. HuBEBT. So, let's go back then to the point we left off, and that is to say — 
the arrival at Love Field. 

Mr. Cubby. Yes, sir ; we arrived at Love Field with the President and his party 
and they got out of the car and got on the plane. 

I was informed by someone a little later that Judge Sarah Hughes was coming 
out to swear in the President, to give him the oath of office, and we stood by 
and when she arrived I escorted her onto the plane and into the presence of 
the President and was there while she gave to him the oath of office. Immedi- 
ately after he was given the oath of office, as I recall it, the President said, 
"Let's get out of here." And I left the plane with Judge Sarah Hughes and 

29 



returned to my car and in the meantime while we were at Love Field, Mrs. 
Kennedy and some others came and they loaded the casket onto the plane and 
she went into the plane. After I got off the plane, I talked to Mrs. Cabell and 
to Mayor Cabell and I waited until the planes left Love Field, and then I went to 
the city hall. 

Now, as best I recall, it was probably around 4 o'clock when I got to the city 
hall, and I started to my oflSce on the third floor, and when I got off of the 
elevator there I could see that there was just pandemonium on the third floor. 
There was dozens and dozens of newsmen just crammed into the north end of 
the corridor. There were television cables running from down the halls, from 
the administrative oflBce, and I went to my olBce and talked with some of my 
staff — I don't recall who all was in there at the time — about what was going 
on, and I was told by someone, I believe Chief Stevenson that they had a man 
named Oswald whom they believed to be the murderer of OflScer Tippit, and they 
had been questioning him in Captain Fritz' oflBce. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Did they advise you at that time, or did they know to your 
knowledge that he was also a suspect in regard to the assassination of President 
Kennedy ? 

Mr. Curry. Someone mentioned that he was also a strong suspec*" in the 
assassination of the President. 

Mr. Hubert. That was at that same time? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. 

Mr. HUBE31T. When you got back there? 

Mr. CxjRBY. After I returned from Love Field. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, you say Captain Fritz was carrying on the interrogation? 

Mr. Curry. Yes; that's his responsibility, to investigate murders, robberies, 
and rapes, and extortions and things of that kind. 

Mr. Hubert. It's fair to say, then, that the interrogation of Oswald with 
respect to either the death of Tippit or of President Kennedy was in accordance 
with the normal procedures of the department? 

Mr. CuREY. That's correct. 

Mr. Hubert. How long had Captain Fritz been in that position, sir? 

Mr. Curry. A number of years — I don't recall exactly when he was ap- 
pointed to his position with the homicide division — probably 15 years anyway. 

I had received a call from the FBI or someone in the FBI, I don't recall 
whether it was Shanklin or who, and they were requesting that a represent- 
ative of their Bureau be allowed to be present when Oswald was interviewed. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you agree to that? 

Mr. Curry. I called Fritz in his oflBce and told him we had this request, and 
Fritz said, "Okay ; we'll let them in." 

At that time I understood there was a representative from Secret Service 
already in the room and the representative from the FBI went in — one or two 
FBI representatives. 

It was some time before I ever went to the homicide oflBce myself. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you receive any message around that time or a little later 
relayed to you as it were, through FBI agents, that Mr. J. Edgar Hoover, the 
head of the FBI, wanted you to know of his concern about Oswald's security? 

Mr. Curry. Specifically, I don't remember anyone coming to me and telling 
me that. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, let's see — I think the last statement you made was that 
it was sometime before you actually went to Fritz' oflBce yourself. Is there 
anything that happened of significance or that you want to put in the record 
with reference to what happened between the time you got there around a little 
after 4 and the time you did get in t/> .see Oswald ? 

Mr. Curry. No, sir ; I wasn't particularly interested in seeing him or inter- 
fering with the investigation in any way. I stayed up in the administrative 
oflBces most of the time. I had a number of calls from various people, I don't 
recall just who all I talked to. I conferred with some of my staff during that 
time and I was kept informed of the progress of the investigation. 

Mr. Hubert. How were you kept informed? 

Mr. Curry. Usually through Chief Stevenson. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you would move from Captain Fritz' oflBce 

30 



Mr. CuRBT. Either by telephone or go down to the oflBCe and talk to him. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, go ahead. 

Mr. Curry. Well, nothing of significance that I can recall wcurred. Later 
in the evening someone told me that they had enough evidence that he had 
been identified as the slayer of our police officer. 

Captain Fritz thought he had better go ahead and file on him and I think 
it was about 7:30 on the day they did file on him, and I think he had been 
down — had been to the showup a time or two — there were some witnesses who 
had identified him, so I was told, as being the man who .shot Tippit. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Oswald then, or when was the first time you saw 
him? 

Mr. Curry. I don't recall exactly the first time I saw him, but I believe it 
was in the evening — in the early evening. When I did see him I remember 
that he impres.sed me as being a sullen, arrogant individual, and he didn't 
.seem particularly i^erturbed with the fact that he was being interrogated or 
that he was causing such a commotion — he was pretty cool. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. You didn't question him yourself, did you? 

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I did not. 

Mr. Hubert. So, he was filed upon about 7:30 with respect to Tippit? 

Mr. Curry. Somewhere around in there — I don't know exactly when It was. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, go ahead. 

Mr. Curry. Then, after he was filed on for this offense, I believe it was 
Captain Fritz who told me that they were working now on the possibility 
that he was the same suspect or the assassin of the President, and they began 
to, when I say "they" I mean Captain Fritz, principally, told me of some of 
the evidence that was piling up against him. In fact, he told me that he 
worked in this Building and that that morning he had carried a package into 
the Building. 

Mr. Hubert. This information was being relayed to you? 

Mr. CuRBY. Relayed to me by Fritz — just summing up what they found out 
about him. He told me that, as I recall, he told me that Oswald had been in 
the Building on this day and that one of the Negro porters had seen him go to 
the sixth floor, I believe, at lunch time, and that after the shooting, some of our 
officers went into the Building and they saw Oswald at a lunch counter or in the 
recreation room and started to approach him or question him and they were 
told by Mr. Truly, who is the Building manager, that this was one of their 
employees, and I think the officer passed him <.n up and went on upstairs to try 
to determine where these .shots came from. 

In the meantime, I believe Inspector Sawyer was .several blocks away from 
there, from that location, and when he heard what was happening, he imme- 
diately went to the location to take over all security and searching there. 

Chief Lumpkin and some of his party went on to Love Field with me and they 
went back to the Texas School Book Depository. So, several minutes elap.sed 
from the time of the shooting until anyone could have gotten — any officers 
could have gotten actually to the Building. 

As soon as it was feasible or po.ssible, they did seal off this Building and 
also that they had checked all of the employees of the Building and found out 
that there was one missing, and I think this is when they susfjeeted him of being 
involved in the fatal shooting of the President, and from the description, I believe 
they began to tie the two suspects together — the suspect of the shooting of the 
officer, and all this was told to me by i>eople of the homicide bureau. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, when we last talked about Oswald, I think it was when 
he was being charged with respect to Tippit, and then I gather that the infor- 
mation you are giving us now is the background for charging him as the 
assassin of President Kennedy? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And you were aware of that too — you were still in the Building? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall a meeting — it has sometimes been called a showup 
or a lineup — I don't know that that is accurate, but it took place in the assembly 
room. 

Mr. Curry. And .some of the members of the press were there, yes, sir. 

31 



Mr. Hubert. Well, can you tell us what that was about? About what time? 

Mr. Curry. I don't recall exactly the time it was — it was in the evening, some- 
time after they had interrogated, I think, O.swald. I think he had been in the 
showup once or twice previous to this for witnesses to observe him, and there 
were so many newsmen in the halls that they were not all of them able to see 
or to get any pictures or any thing else in the north corridor of the third floor, 
and some of them asked me to — sometime during the evening — when they could 
see Oswald, how does he look, can we see him? 

At this time Henry Wade, the district attorney, was up there and Alexander 
was up there. 

Mr. Hubert. He is the assistant district attorney? 

Mr. Curry. Yes ; and something was said about — how about letting us see him 
or could we see him ? 

Mr. Hubert. That was said by Wade or Alexander or by the newsmen? 

Mr. Curry. By the newsmen. 

Mr. Hubert. In the presence of Wade and Alexander? 

Mr. Curry. Yes ; as I recall it, I asked Henry Wade, "Do you see anything 
wrong with it," and as I recall, he told me, "Not that I know of, I don't see 
anything wrong with it." And, so, we told them if they would go to the assembly 
room that we would let them see Oswald. 

Mr. Hubert. Is the assembly room located on another floor? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, in the basement ; we were on the third floor. 

Mr. Hubert. And the assembly room is in effect — it is a room, as I recall it, 
that might seat 50 or 75 people? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And it has a little stage with the usual showup apparatus? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, there is gauze in front of the prisoners, so 
that the audience can see them, but the prisoners can't look out. And there 
are markings on it as to height and their numbers? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. That's the room we are talking about? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, that's the room he was taken to. He was not put on the 
stage, he was just put in front of the stage for the showup. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, he was not put behind the gauze? 

Mr. Curry. Not this time, I think he was on previous occasions. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes ; when there was a real lineup for identification? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. But this was not an identification lineup? 

Mr. Curry. No ; it was the news media clamoring to see him, and they wanted 
to know when they could look at him or when they could observe him, and on 
the third floor when he was brought to and from the interrogation room, which 
was Captain Fritz' oflSce, they had to go about 20 or 25 feet, and they almost 
mobbed him every time they would bring him through. 

Mr. Hubert. You are saying they had to go about 20 or 25 feet to get to the 
elevator? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, 

Mr. Hubert. That is the inside elevator, not the public elevator? 

Mr. Curry. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. It's the inside elevator 

Mr. Curry. The prisoners' elevator. 

Mr. Hubert. That leads all of the police department down into the basement 
into the jail? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir ; go ahead. 

Mr. Curry. So, we warned them not to try to interfere with him or anything 
else and we would let them see him. We did take him down and let them 
briefly see him — this was just a very short time. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you present then? 

Mr. Curry. Yes ; I was. 

Mr. Hubert. Who else was present, among the police oflScers you recall? 

Mr. Curry. I don't recall — I think Fritz was — I don't know that he was in 

32 



the room, and there was a couple of detectives who brought the suspect in. Henry 
Wade and Alexander were in the vicinity — they were not right there with me, 
so when we brought him in, the news media started then to trying to talk to him 
and he was only there for a few seconds and we removed him. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see, during the time you were in the assembly room that 
you have just been speaking about, the man you now know as Jack Ruby in that 
room ? 

Mr. Curry. No, sir ; I didn't. I understood he was there, but I didn't see him, 
and would not have known him had I seen him. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, that's correct, but now that you do know him? 

Mr. Curry. I didn't recognize him. 

Mr. Hubert. You didn't recognize him? 

Mr. Curry. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Your present memory doesn't associate the man you now know as 
Jack Ruby with being in that room? 

Mr. Curry. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, can you tell us why Oswald was moved for the purpose of 
charging him in the case of Tippit, and subsequently in the case of the President? 

Mr. Curry. I don't know in the case of Tippit. I wasn't there. I mean, I 
wasn't present when he was charged, but he was charged with the murder of 
the President — he was charged in the lobby of the identification bureau, which is 
on the fourth floor of the police department, and he was brought out of the jail 
into the identification bureau and the charge was read to him by Judge David 
Johnston. 

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at is what security measures were ob- 
served with reference to him during the time that he was moved through these 
crowds of people? 

Mr. Curry. Officers surrounded him. iWe had officers in front and in the 
back and by the side of him as he was moving — usually two detectives, two or 
three uniformed officers, when he moved through the crowds. 

Mr. Hubert. I understand you said that there was a huge crowd on the third 
floor? 

Mr. Curby. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And I would take it that there was a rather large crowd in the 
assembly room? 

Mr. Curry. Yes ; there were several — a good many there. 

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to say that other than on the third floor, when he was 
being moved and when he was in the assembly room, he was not exposed in 
any way? 

Mr. Curry. No ; he was not. 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, there were no persons around him but police then? 

Mr. Curry. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, when he was moved through the hall, however many times 
he was at the third floor — of course, you had this mob of newsmen and there 
were a group of newsmen in the assembly room ? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. What I am getting at — what security measures were taken, if 
you know, with respect to who was in that crowd of newsmen of the people in 
the assembly room? 

Mr. Curry. I don't know, other than on the third floor. I know that there 
was some police reservists and a police sergeant who was screening people who 
came up on the third floor. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, how would they screen them? 

Mr. Curry. As they got off of the elevator, I would observe that they would 
check them, apparently asking for identification. 

Mr. Hubert. The elevator would be the only way to get up there? 

Mr. Curry. The stairway, they could get up the stairway. The officers were 
so located that had someone come up the stairway they would have seen them 
too. ^ 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, the officers checking the elevator could also check 
the staircase? 

Mr. Curry. That's right. 

33 



Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether any instructions had been given to those 
oflBcers? 

Mr. Curry. I don't know of my knowledge, but I observed them checking the 
people who came in. 

Mr. Hubert. Whose responsibility would it have been to post those oflBcers 
for the purpose of checking there? 

Mr. Curry. Usually the captain on duty in that building — that would have 
been Captain Talbert, I believe, but it could have been someone else. Had they 
observed the need for it, they could have issued orders to get someone else. 

Mr. Hubert. Obviously, someone must have posted two men there? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you say you have in the department any standard opera- 
tive procedures to cover a situation like that? 

Mr. Curry. Not exactly this type incident. 

Mr. Hubert. So, in any case, you observed that that was a security check 
going on? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Is the same thing approximately true about the group that was 
in the assembly room when Oswald was brought down? 

Mr. Curry. Well, now, I don't know that they were all checked as they went 
into the assembly room. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you give any instructions about the security of Oswald 
there? 

Mr. Curry. No ; I just told them to keep the newsmen — and I told the newsmen 
they would have to stay back inside the confines of the room and not approach 
the prisoner. 

Mr. Hubert. Let me put it this way — generally speaking, did you give any 
specific instructions regarding the security of Oswald, during that period we are 
talking about? 

Mr. Curry. No, not this period — no. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what system of checking for identification was 
being used by the oflBcers on the third fioor guarding the elevator and staircase? 

Mr. Curry. I don't know of my own knowledge. I could see them checking 
the people to see whether they were up to do police business or whether they 
were newsmen trying to cover the incident. We were carrying on the normal 
business we would conduct, and this would bring a great many people to the 
third floor, relatives of prisoners, complainants, various people that would 
come to the other bureaus. 

Mr. Hubert. Normally, there would be no police checking those two elevators? 

Mr. Curry. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. So that, I suppose it is fair to state, isn't it, that the main func- 
tion of that check was to keep curiosity seekers out of the way? 

Mr. Curry. That's right — that's right. 

Mr. Hubert. And to check also to see if anybody had any legitimate business 
there? 

Mr. Curry. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, I think we can just continue on then. 

Mr. Curry. Well, after Oswald was arraigned, I went back to my oflBce — I 
went home a little while after that and that was, I believe, Saturday night. 

Mr. Hubert. No ; that would be Friday night. 

Mr. Curry. Yes; Friday night, yes; and Saturday morning I came down to 
the oflBce and I don't remember any particular outstanding incident that occurred 
during the day. It was a rather routine investigation — there continued the 
investigation from the homicide division section on the murder of the President. 

Mr. Hubert. Was the crowd of newspapermen still there? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir ; they stayed there. 

Mr. Hubert. Were the security measures you have described still in force? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir ; they stayed. 

Mr. Hubert. It was neither more nor less? 

Mr. Curry. It was about the same. I had several conferences during the day 
with various staff members and I was kept informed of the progress of the 

34 



investigation. Late that evening, the different members of the press, news 
media, began to ask me when we were going to transfer Oswald because he had 
been filed on, and I told them I didn't know, that this was something that 
would be left up to Captain Fritz because he was conducting the investigation 
and the interrogation, and usually he would be the one to determine when he 
was ready to transfer the prisoner. 

Mr. Hubert. When a prisoner is formally charged, as Oswald had been, what 
is the normal procedure to transfer the prisoner to the State prison? 

Mr. Curry. There are two ways it is done. Sometimes the bureau transfers 
the person to the sheriff's office, and sometimes the sheriff's office sends up and 
gets them. 

Mr. Hubert. And either type is usual? 

Mr. Curry. Either one is acceptable. 

Mr. Hubert. Had Decker made any request to you to deliver what, in effect, 
was his prisoner? 

Mr. Curry. Not at this time. 

Mr. Hubert. So, on Saturday night, that would be the 23d, you were asked, 
I think, by the newsmen? 

Mr. Curry. When we were going to transfer him and I told them I didn't 
know. 

Mr. Hubert. All right ; go on from there. 

Mr. Curry. And some of them asked if "They are going to transfer him to- 
night?" And I said, "I don't think so." Then, I talked to Fritz about when he 
thought he would transfer the prisoner, and he didn't think it was a good idea 
to transfer him at night because of the fact you couldn't see, and if anybody 
tried to cause them any trouble, they needed to see who they were and where it 
was coming from and so forth, and he suggested that we wait until daylight, 
so this was normal procedure, I mean, for Fritz to determine when he is going 
to transfer his prisoners, so I told him, "Okay." I asked him, I said, "What 
time do you think you will be ready tomorrow?" And he didn't know exactly 
and I said. "Do you think about 10 o'clock," an4 he said, "I believe so," and 
then is when I went out and told the newspaper people, the news media that 
we were not going to transfer him that night and some of them asked, "When 
should we be back, when are you going to transfer him?" And I said, "I don't 
know," because I didn't know when we were going to transfer him. Some 
of them said, "When should we back?" I made the remark then, "I believe 
if you are back here by 10 o'clock you will be back in time to observe anything 
you care to observe." 

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us whether on Saturday night any plans had been 
made for the transfer? 

Mr. Curry. Not on Saturday night, I don't believe. 

Mr. Hxjbert. Then, you went home? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Then, let's pick up with the 24th. 

Mr. Curry. On Sunday morning, I came down to the office, and, as I recall, 
it was probably 8:30 or 8:45 when I got to the office, and as I parked my car 
in the basement of the city hall and started up to our office, I noticed that a 
large camera had been set up out in the hallway between the jail office and 
the end of the corridor immediately in front of the jail office, and it was in the 
way of traffic, and Lieutenant Wiggins came out and I told him — I told Lieu- 
tenant Wiggins, I said, "You are going to have to move this camera out of 
here," and then I told Wiggins, I said, "Now, if the news media come down 
here and want in, put them over behind the rail." There is a rail separating 
the ramp that comes down in the basement from the parking area. There 
were two cars in there, I believe a patrol wagon and a squad car and I told him 
to move those vehicles out and if the news media came down and wanted to 
observe from the basement, that they were to be placed back over in this area. 

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to state, then, that in your own mind, you had deter- 
mined that the way to move him was through the basement area ? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. I believe about this— Chief Stevenson and Chief Batchelor 
approached me — I think they had been there earlier, and I told them I thought 

35 



the best thing to do was to set up our security down there and bring Oswald 
down there and transfer him on to the county jail. 

I went on up to the office and Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson, I think, 
remained in the basement a while and Captain Talbert was down there. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you delegate to any specific person the security of Oswald? 

Mr. Curry. No, sir ; I could see that he was being taken care of by the cap- 
tain on duty. Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Wiggins was assisting in it, 
so I didn't see any need to particularly call some officer over there and say, "Look, 
you are in charge of this security in this basement." It was being taken care 
of, I could see. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, for the record, will you tell us what you saw that satisfied 
you that it was being taken care of? 

Mr. Curry. Officers were being stationed at the strategic points in the base- 
ment to screen people coming in, and they were moving out the vehicles as I 
asked them to, so I went on upstairs and I told Chief Batchelor and Chief 
Stevenson that we should clean out everything in the basement and screen 
everything that came back in. 

Mr. Hubert. When you ordered everything to be "screened" did you give any 
specific instructions? 

Mr. Curry. No; I didn't. 

Mr. Hubert. Or does that term have any significance in police work? 

Mr. Curry. Well, it means to satisfy yourself that they were people who 
bad a legitimate reason to be there when you screen them. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, within the organization of the police department, 
the word "screening" is understood so that you were satisfied that there would 
not be people there who were not supposed to be there? 

Mr. Curry. Any unauthorized people. 

Mr. Hubert. Just one more point on that — under the system, who would be 
considered as unauthorized persons? 

Mr. Curry. I think I specifically stated that only newspaper reporters or police 
officers would be allowed in the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. Only the news media? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Television people — would be included, too? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Was there any discussion of the route to be taken? 

Mr. Curry. Not at that time. 

Mr. Hubert. All right ; let's go ahead. 

Mr. Curry. Then, I went on upstairs and a little while later I went to Fritz' 
office and they were interrogating him — they — there were several people in there, 
some I recognized as FBI agents, some were Secret Service agents, some were 
Dallas detectives, and Captain Fritz was talking to Oswald at the time, I believe, 
and I stood around a few moments and when there was a lull in the interrogation, 
I asked Captain Fritz if he was about ready to transfer Oswald and he said, 
"Well, no ; they were still talking to him," so I left the room. 

Mr. Hubert. That was about what time? 

Mr. Curry. As I recall, it was probably 10:30, but I didn't care when they 
transferred him at all. It didn't make any difference to me. The arrangements 
bad been made to transfer him and then when it was brought to 

Mr. Hubert. What arrangements had been made? 

Mr. Curry. That we wovild transfer him to the sheriff, but at that time we 
did not have any armored cars down there. We were just at that time, I believe 
it was — understood that we would just put him in the car and drive him 
down there. 

Someone asked me if I had heard of the threats that had been made against 
him, and I had. They had called me at home about it, and I called Sheriff 
Decker, I think, from Fritz' office, and when Fritz said they were ready to trans- 
fer the man, and this is something after 11 o'clock— probably a little after 11, 
and Decker said, "Okay, bring him on," and at that time I said, "I thought you 
were coming after him." 

Decker said, "Either way, I'll come after him or you can bring him to me," 
and I thought since we had so much involved here, we were the ones that were 

36 



investigating the case and we had the officers set up downstairs to handle it, 
so I told Decker— I said, "Okay, we'll bring him to you." 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, at first your security precaution in the basement 
was to take care of the situation of either your having to move him from the jail 
or Decker coming after him? 

Mr. Cubby. Or Decker coming after him; that's right. Then, I saw Chief 
Batchelor, and I believe. Chief Stevenson, and we discussed the threats that 
we had had. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Now, that was, of course, after you had heard about the threats 
and after you had talked to Decker? 

Mr. Cubby. Yes. 

Mr. HuBEBT. And I think you mentioned you talked to Decker a little after 
11 o'clock? 

Mr. Cubby. Well, it was probably before that. 

Mr. HuBEBT. I wanted to bring that to your attention because it seems to 
me it must have been earlier than that. 

Mr. Cubby. Yes ; it was. Because we had to get the armored car in there after 
that. Anyway, after it was determined we would move him. Chief Batchelor, 

I believe, and Chief Stevenson and myself discussed this security and we decided 
it would be best to get an armored car down there in the event some one, some 
group tried to take our prisoner away from us, it would be better to have him 
in an armored car. 

So. Chief Batchelor called the man, I don't recall his name now, that runs 
the armored motor service here in Dallas, and requested that we be furnished 
with an armored car, and I was told later that they had two sizes, an overland 
truck and a, city truck and they would send them both over there when they 
could get the drivers and we could use whichever one we wanted. 

Well, as I understand it, during this time the questioning of Oswald continued 
up in Captain Fritz' office, and I believe it was about a quarter to 11 or around 

II when we were told the armored cars were there and they backed them into 
the basement and they wouldn't go all the way down because of the height of 
the vehicle, and one of them was parked on the ramp and officers were placed 
on each side of it. In the meantime, I understand that the basement had been 
completely cleaned out of any unauthorized persons. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Can you tell me why it was that the Commerce Street exit was 
chosen to put the armored car in and for the cars carrying Oswald to leave in, 
rather than the Main Street exit? 

Mr. Cubby. Because Commerce Street is one way east and all the traffic 
comes in on Main Street. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Main Street is two-way traffic? 

Mr. Cubby. It is two-way traffic and the exit is one way east, so the vehicles 
were placed there. 

Mr. HuBEBT. As a matter of geographical fact, except for the fact that you 
would have been going the wrong way, up the Main Street ramp and that you 
had two-way traffic on Main Street, the actual closest route would have been 
to go up the Main Street ramp, turn left up Main Street and go down? 

Mr. Cubby. Yes; it would. It would have been about three or four blocks 
closer, because when we came out of Commerce you had to go east to the 
second block and make a turn one block and make a turn back west. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Chief, have you any comment to make as to why the longer 
route instead of the shorter route was taken? 

Mr. Cubby. Well, just because ordinarily we don't violate traffic rules and 
regulations in the transfer of prisoners and we thought this was the normal 
route that should be taken and that's the reason it was set up that way. 

Mr. HuBEBT. The original decision, as I remember it, was to go through the 
Commerce Street exit and then turn left up to North Central? 

Mr Cubby. Yes. 

Mr. HxjBEBT. And then turn left again and go to Elm and then go on down 
to the county jail? 

Mr. Cubby. When I went back up into the homicide office and told Fritz 
about our plans of transferring the prisoner, he was not particularly pleased 
with the idea of putting the prisoner in the armored car. 

37 



Mr. Hubert. Did he say why ? 

Mr. Curry. He said if someone tried to take our prisoner, he felt like we 
ought to be able to manuever and he felt that this would be too awkward in 
in this heavy armored car and he preferred that the prisoner be transferred 
in a regular police oar with detectives. 

Mr. Hubert. AVas a policeman to drive the armored car? 

Mr. Curry. No ; not the armored car. 

Mr. Hubert. Is that a factor, too — I suppose — it wouldn't be a member of 
the police force under your control driving that car? 

Mr. Curry. No; but he felt like — Fritz said if anyone tried to take our 
prisoner we should be in a position to be able to cut out of the caravan or 
to take off or do whatever was necessary to protect our prisoner. 

So, I didn't argue with him about it — there was some merit to his plan, so 
I told him, "Well, okay, but we would still use the armored car as a decoy and 
let it go right on down just as we had planned and if anyone planned to try 
to take our prisoner away from us, they would be attacking an empty armored 
car," and that his vehicle with the prisoner in it would have cut out of the 
caravan and proceeded immediately to the county jail and the prisoner would 
be taken into the county jail, and the way we figured it, he would be there 
before the other caravan got there. 

Well, he asked me if everything was ready and I said, "Yes, as far as I know, 
everything is ready to go," and this was a little after 11 o'clock and I said, 
"Well, I'll go on down to the basement," and was en route to the basement 
when I was called to the telephone and Mayor Cabell was on the telephone 
wanting to know something about the case, how we were progressing, what was 
going on, and while I was talking to him they made this transfer and Oswald 
was shot in the basement, and he was rushed to Parkland Hospital and I was 
notified that he had been shot in the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you know about his being shot before he moved to the 
hospital in the ambulance? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, they called me from the jail office and said he had been shot 
and an ambulance had been ordered. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, after the shooting, what action did you take — that is, the 
shooting of Oswald? 

Mr. Curry. Well, I don't recall any particular action I took. I was told 
the man who shot him was in custody and was up in the jail. I think I notified 
the mayor that the man had been shot while I was still on the telephone with 
him and then I waited up in my oflSce for word from Parkland Hospital, 
and about 1 :30, or I believe about 1 :30, we were informed that he had expired, 
and during this time I had been informed that the man who shot him was a 
nightclub operator named Jack Ruby, and that he was in custody up in the jail. 

After I was informed that Oswald had died, I made an announcement to 
news media that he had expired and that we had the man who shot him in 
custody and as I recall, that's about the exteht of miy activity on that day. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember whether on Sunday, November 24, it came 
to your attention that Ruby had stated that he entered the jail through the 
Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Curry. I heard that, but I don't know who told it to me. I just heard 
a I'umor that he had come in through the Main Street ramp. I understood that 
he told some more people that up in the jail. 

After this happened, I immediately set up an investigative team to try to 
find out what happened. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, when you say "immediately," you mean on the 24th? 

Mr. Cueby. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And who was that? 

Mr. Curry. Inspector Sawyer, Capt. O. A. Jones. 

Mr. Hubert. What were your instructions to them? 

Mr. Curry. To interrogate everyone that had anything to do with this and 
find out what they knew about it, what had happened and how and why and 
how it occurred. 

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to state that your instructions were then to find out 
exactly the truth? 

38 



Mr. Curry. Yes ; absolutely. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, you did receive a report from them ultimately? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Hubert. And I take it, of course, that you studied it? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. As I remember the report, it made certain specific findings as 
to how Ruby entered and so forth ? 

Mr. Curry. Yes, according to the report he did come down the Main Street 
ramp. 

Mr. Hubert. From your study of the report and all the statements that you got, 
are you satisfied with the conclusions reached in the report? 

Mr. CuRBY. I believe this is the way he came in. I don't believe the officer 
at the top of the ramp where he came in, I don't believe that he knew that he 
went by, but I do state this, that I think the proper security was set up, and 
that had each oflRcer carried out his assignment, I believe the transfer would 
have been made safely, and while I, as head of the department, have to accept 
responsibility for the security, I can say this, that the proper security was set up. 

It was a failure of one man to carry out his assignment properly that per- 
mitted this man, apparently, to come into the basement of the city hall. 

Mr. Hubert. And that man you mean is Roy Vaughn? 

Mr. Curry. "Vaughn — ^Oflicer Vaughn, the officer assigned to the Main Street 
ramp. 

Mr. Hubert. Was there any kind of influence of any sort whatsoever or 
suggestions exercised upon you or made to you concerning the transfer of 
Oswald by either Mayor Cabell or City Manager Crull? 

Mr. Curry. No, sir ; they left it up to me. 

Mr. Hubert. Chief, as you know, there has been some suggestion that a 
desire to satisfy the press dictated the time of the movement and the route. 
I think you ought to have an opportunity at this time to recall your own obser- 
vations as to what influence, if any, considerations of pleasing the press entered 
into any of these plans? 

Mr. Curry. Well, I would only say this, that we were trying in the police 
department to let the press have an opportunity to observe the proceedings as 
they were. This is an event that had not been — the like of the event had not 
been seen or heard, I think, in this century. 

I didn't have any particular ones to come to me and insist that this be done 
in this manner. I saw no particular harm in allowing the media to observe 
the prisoner, and with no laws against it, and no policies that had ever been 
set up stating that the news media would not be allowed to see a prisoner. 

There was no way for us to take the prisoner from the homicide office to the 
jail and back without the news media seeing him. I was besieged actually 
by the press to permit them to see Oswald. They made such remarks as, "The 
public has a right to see, to know," I didn't want them to think that we were 
mistreating Oswald ; that we were carrying on this investigation in a normal 
manner, and that this case was handled as probably any other case would have 
been handled, although this had more national appeal, you might say, and 
had some curiosity to it, than some of the other cases we have handled. 

But certainly the fact that the news media was permitted to see him and to 
take pictures of him was not anything unusual. This has always been done, 
but not to this extent because we didn't have this much press present. 

Mr. Hubert. As I understand what you are saying, it is that had it not been 
for the fact that the victim was Oswald, if it was Oswald, and it was the 
President involved, this would have been quite normal procedure, that is to say, 
the press woud have been allowed to see him, you would have told them when 
he was going to be moved? 

Mr. Cubby. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. And allowed them to take pictures? 

Mr. Curry. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Was any suggestion made to you by anybody that it would 
be best to disregard those considerations with respect to the press and use 
another route in making the transfer at another time? 

39 

731-228 O — 64 — vol. XII 4 



Mr. CuRBY. No, sir; not that I recall. Fritz and I, I think, discussed this 
briefly, the possibility of getting that prisoner otit of the city hall during the 
night hours and by another route and slipping him to the jail, but actually Fritz 
was not too much in favor of this and I more or less left this up to Fritz as to 
when and how this transfer would be made, because he has in the past trans- 
ferred many of his prisoners to the county jail and I felt that since it was his 
responsibility, the prisoner was, to let him decide when and how he wanted 
to transfer this prisoner. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, you didn't, in any case, give him instructions not to 
transfer the prisoner at a time when he could not be observed by the press? 

Mr. Curry. No, sir ; that's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to state that had he done so, it would have been satis- 
factory to you? 

Mr. Curry. I would not have complained about it. 

Mr. Hltbert. Do you know whether Fritz' decision not to move him prior 
to the time that had been announced to the press was motivated by considera- 
tions of the press? 

Mr. Curry. I don't know whether it was or not. I think this — that he didn't 
know how long he would be interrogating. I don't believe Fritz wanted to 
move him at night. I think he wanted to move him in the daytime so that 
he could see anyone that might be trying to cause him any trouble. 

Mr. Hubert. Your thought is that, therefore, Fritz' decision not to move 
him at night was dictated by considerations of security? 

Mr. Curry. I believe so ; yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Chief, I believe that I ought to offer you the opportunity to 
state for the record here as an overall proposition what you consider to be 
the cause of what was obviously a security breakdown ? 

Mr. Curry. I think the cause of the breakdown was the fact that Officer 
Vaughn left his post to assist this Lieutenant Pierce, and I believe Sergeant 
Dean, and I don't know who else was in the car, as they left the basement of 
the city hall going the wrong way on the ramp, and Officer Vaughn stepped 
across the sidewalk which he had been instructed, so I am told, to guard that 
ramp — to let only police officers or bona fide news media enter there. He 
momentarily stepped away from his assignment and while he was away from 
this assignment, our investigation shows that Jack Ruby went behind him and 
entered the ramp and went to the bottom of the ramp and stood behind some 
detectives and news media. 

Mr. Hubert. Concerning the security at the top of the Main Street ramp where 
Vaughn was, what observations have you to make about that means of entry 
being guarded by one man only instead of, say, more? 

Mr. Curry. Well, actually, this seemed to be the least risk in our security 
plan. All of the crowd and vehicles and everything was over on Commerce 
Street and there was very little over on Main Street, actually very little ac- 
tivity at all. It was only about a 12-foot ramp there that he had to guard. 

Mr. Hubert. And he was standing right in the middle of it? 

Mr. Curry. Had he stayed on his assignment, I don't see how Ruby could 
have gotten in. 

Mr. Hubert. Of course, when the Pierce car came up, he obviously had to 
move away, but your thought is he moved too far away from his assignment? 

Mr. Curry. He moved too far away from his assignment. He apparently 
was assisting this vehicle to get across the sidewalk, I think it was 10 or 12 
feet wide, and into the street. Actually, he should have just stepped to one 
side and let the vehicle come by. 

Now, this officer was put on a polygraph to determine whether or not he 
knew that Ruby went by him and according to the test, the reslalts of the test, 
he did not realize that Ruby went by him. 

Mr. Hubert. Chief, in addition to your testimony, I have shown you two 
documents which I think you have read, and I am marking for identification 
as follows, to-wit : The first one is a report of an interview of you by FBI Agent 
Vincent Drain on November 25, the document consisting of two pages, and I 
am marking on the first page "Dallas, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5313, deposi- 

40 



tion of Chief J. E. Curry," and I am signing my name on that, and on the sec- 
ond page I am placing my initials. 

With respect to the second document, it seems to be a copy of an interview 
of you made by FBI Agent Leo Robertson on December 10, 1963, and I am 
marking on the margin of the first page, as follows : "Dallas, Tex., April 15, 
1964, Exhibit 5314, deposition of Chief J. E. Curry," and I am signing my 
name at the bottom of that page, and since the document has a second page, 
I am placing my initials at the bottom of the second page. 

Now, I am going to ask you if you would mind signing your name where 
my name appears and your initials where my initials are, so that the record 
will show we both are talking about the same document? 

Mp. Curbt* Okay. 

(Signed docljment as requested by Counsel Hubert.) 

Mr. Hubert. Then I am going to ask you whether you have any comments 
to make about those two documents? Would you initial the second page, too? 

Mr. Curry. Yes ; I will. 

(Witness Curry initialed instruments as requested by Counsel Hubert.) 

Mr. Hubert. Now, Chief, have you had an opportunity to read both of those 
documents? 

Mr. Curry. Yes ; I looked them over. 

Mr. Hubert. Do they represent the truth so far as you know of the interviews 
that they purport to cover? 

Now, if you have any comments to make or deletions or mo'difications or 
changes, or if you find that those documents are incorrect, I would like for you 
to say so, because what we will have to do is to get into the record what is 
correct and not what is not correct. 

Mr. Curry. [Examining instruments as referred to.] Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Are they correct, sir? Do you have any comments or deletions? 

Mr. Curry. No ; I don't have any comments. As far as I know — as far as I 
can recall, this is about what happened. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the 
Commission's staff prior to this time? 

Mr. Curry. No, sir ; I had a little conversation with you over in my oflBce. 

Mr. Hubert. That was about 2 weeks ago when I was present in Dallas? 

Mr. Curry. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Was there anything that occurred during that conversation that 
has not been covered here? 

Mr. Curry. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, finally, is there anything at all you would like to make a 
matter of record concerning this whole thing? You are at liberty to say any- 
thing you want to say. 

Mr. Curry. No ; the only thing I would like to say is that I deeply regret the 
incidents that occurred and I feel like we did everything that could be expected 
of us as a police department to set up the security of the President and to co- 
operate with all agencies that had a responsibility in this matter, that we cer- 
tainly would have liked for Oswald to have remained alive and faced trial. 

According to the information that was given to me by the homicide bureau, we 
had developed a very good case on him and would have been able to, I'm sure, 
would have been able to convict him in a court of law. 

Jack Ruby — I do not know, I did not know. It has been intimated that a great 
many of the Dallas police oflicers did know him, but from what I've been able 
to find out, there were some police oflBcers who knew him, but most of them knew 
him because of the fact they had conducted police business with him at his place 
of business. There were a few, perhaps, that knew him and had gone to his 
place of business for social activities, but it was certainly not — he is not known 
by the majority of the police department. 

Mr. Hubert. Chief, perhaps you would like to comment on two things — one, is 
that, as you know, there has been some talk or rumor, of course, that the police 
department cooperated, or some members of it, with Ruby for an opportunity for 
Ruby to shoot Oswald. 

Have you looked into that, and if you have, would you give us your observa- 
tions about it? 

41 



Mr. Cubby. My instructions to the investigating oflBcers were to go into every 
facet of this incident and to uncover any information that might indicate that 
any police oflScer cooperated in any way with letting Ruby get in a position to 
where he could have an opportunity to shoot Oswald. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Did you find any evidence that would indicate anything? 

Mr. Cubby. No evidence whatsoever were we able to find. 

Mr. Hubest. You were looking for such? 

Mr. Cubby. Yes ; we certainly were. 

Mr. HUBEBT. Chief, what was your intention had you found such evidence? 

Mr. Cubby. Proper action would have been taken. 

Mr. Hubebt. And by that you mean what? 

Mr. Cubby. The oflScer, if criminal negligence had been established, he would 
have been filed on by us. 

Mr. Hubebt. Now, there has been also the rumor that while the police did not 
actively cooperate, that they saw Jack Ruby there, didn't pay much attention to 
him, were really appalled when he did what he did, and then after that, engaged 
in a cover-up activity to preserve the reputation of the police department. Can 
you tell us whether your investigative etforts were directed toward uncovering 
any evidence which might throw light on that matter? 

Mr. Cubby. This investigation which was conducted was a completely im- 
partial investigation. 

We in the police department for a number of years have felt like if there is 
anything wrong in our department, we want to know it, and if actions of the 
oflScers are improper, an examination of our records through the years will show 
that we have taken whatever action was indicated, whether this be filing on a 
man for law violations or for improper conduct or whatever it might be. The 
.seriousness of the offense is certainly not covered up and through the years we 
have a reputation for a high standard of conduct and the integrity of the depart- 
ment has not been questioned. 

Mr. Hubebt. You are satisfied that from all you know that there has been 
no effort to cover up? 

Mr. Cubby. No, sir ; not to my knowledge, and had there been and it had come 
to my knowledge, I certainly would have done something about it. 

Mr. Hubebt. You are satisfied that the evidence shows that really Ruby came 
through one man? 

Mr. Cubby. That's right. 

Mr. Hubebt. And that was Vaughn? 

Mr. Cubby. That's right. 

Mr. Hubebt. Have you anything else to say, chief? 

Mr. Cubby. No, sir ; I believe not. 

Mr. Hubebt. Well, sir, on behalf of the Commission and myself personally, I 
want to thank you very much for coming here and being frank and contributing, 
I think, a great deal of the permanent record in this matter. 

Mr. Cubby. Thank you, sir, if there is anything that I might know that I 
haven't brought out, I will be happy to. The only thing I can say is that our 
security broke down at one place. I can't deny that, and I don't think it inten- 
tional on the part of the police department to have this thing occur. 

Mr. Hubebt. I think that's covered. I wanted to ask you those questions and 
I think they are going to be asked and we are going to have an answer to them 
now and you are the man to do it. Thank you very much, chief. 

Mr. Cubby. All right. Thank you. 



TESTIMONY OF SHERIFF J. E. (BILL) DECKER 

The testimony of Sheriff J. E. (Bill) Decker was taken at 10 :44 a.m., on April 
16, 1964, in the ofl3ce of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Oflice Building, Bryan and 
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the 
President's Commission. 

42 



Mr, Hubert. This is the deposition of J. E. (Bill) Decker. 

Mr. Decker, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff 
of the general counsel of the President's Commision under the provisions of 
Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress 
137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformity with 
the Executive order and the joint resolution. I have been authorized to take a 
sworn deposition from you. Sheriff Decker. I state to you now that the general 
nature of the inquiry of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and 
to report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the 
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. 

In particular as to you. Sheriff Decker, the nature of the inquiry today is to 
determine what facts you may know about the death of Oswald and any other 
pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, including the security 
of Oswald, and the method and so forth by which he was killed. 

I think, Sheriff Decker, that you have appeared here today by virtue of a 
letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin? 

Mr. Decker. Yes ; I think that's correct. 

Mr. Hubert. Who is the General Counsel of the staff of the President's 
Commission? 

Mr. Decker. I know there was a letter — anyway, I am here due to that 
reason. 

Mr. Hubert. I had the impression you had a letter, but let me say this, that 
in any event, you are appearing here by virtue of a request made to appear 
here? 

Mr. Decker. I was notified by the U.S. Secret Service to appear here and I 
presume that was a summons. 

Mr. Hubert. Then, that would be because we did not wish to go through the 
formalities here? 

Mr. Deckfe. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. In that case, however, I must state to you that under the rules 
and regulations of the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written 
notice before appearing. 

Mr. Decker. I understand. 

Mr. Hubert. But the Commission does provide that the witness may waive 
that 3 days' notice and I now ask you if you are willing to waive it and testify 
now? 

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you stand up, please, and I will administer the oath? Do 
you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you state your name? 

Mr. Decker. Bill Decker. 

Mr. Hubert. Your age? 

Mr. Decker. Sir, 66. 

Mr. Hubert. And your residence? 

Mr. Decker. 6302 Palo Pinto. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Decker. I am sheriff of Dallas County. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been sheriff? 

Mr. Decker. Since January 1, 1949. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, you have been reelected a number of times ? 

Mr. Deckeb. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. How many times? 

Mr. Decker. I am serving my 16 years — I had two of those — one of those terms 
for a 4-year term, but we caught 2 years prior to that — that makes 4 from 16, 
leaves 12, 3 and 1 is 4 terms and I am coming for my fifth now. 

Mr. Hubert. What was your occupation prior to the time that you became 
sheriff? 

Mr. Decker. I was chief deputy sheriff for Dallas County 14 years prior to 
that. Prior to that I was chief deputy constable since 1924, prior to that I 

43 



was in the courthouse as a court clerk and prior to that I was elevator operator 
in the courthouse. Now, that's It — that's my life. 

Mr. Hubert. You started really at the bottom you might say, and went up? 

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. You are married, of course? 

Mr. Decker. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. You have a family? 

Mr. Decker. I have one adopted son. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I — as I understand it, it is your responsibility to operate 
the State or county jail for those prisoners who are either serving terms that 
may be served there, or who are awaiting a trial in Dallas County and do not 
make bond, is that correct, sir? 

Mr. Decker. That is correct. I am keeper of the county security building, 
of the county jail, which maintains the prisoners. 

Mr. Hubert. That is located where? 

Mr. Decker. 505 Main Street, the corner of Main and Houston, and it extends 
to the corner of Elm and Houston In the rear. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, when prisoners are put in your custody or you take them 
into your custody who are awaiting trial, where are they placed, in cell blocks 
or something of that sort? 

Mr. Decker. Oh, yes ; we have a jail there with a capacity of 750 prisoners. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you have what might be called maximum security there? 

Mr. Decker. Yes ; I do — there are many maximums — I have 450 maximum- 
security cells that's the latest that can be built. The others are built in the 
old jail which was built in 1913. Of course, my steel isn't so good in that 
old jail. 

Mr. Hubert. By maximum security, you mean, of course, maximum security 
from the standpoint that the prisoner can't get out? 

Mr. Decker. It is tool proof steel, one, and two, it is the modern locks. The 
man who maintains it — the opening and closing of the doors to it is in a cell 
block where the prisoners tciild not get to him unless he did as a couple of my 
boys did the other day, I'm sorry to say. You don't need to put that in there. 
They are no longer with me. They opened the door when they had no business 
to and they lost their jobs and I lost five prisoners. 

Mr. Hubert. Does maximum security as it operates with you include considera- 
tions of security to the prisoner himself? 

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do yon consider it to be your function, not merely to secure 
the prisoner so that he may be brought to justice or acquitted, but also so that 
his personal security will be maintained and he will not be injured, either by 
other prisoners or by outsiders? 

Mr. Decker. Well, I even go further than that. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, will you tell us about that? 

Mr. Decker. A prisoner that is delivered to me — when the crime is committed, 
he is then delivered to me and when he is delivered to me, from then on I am 
his keeper. I must furnish his food, his clothing, get his medication and all the 
necessities of life required. I must protect him from a violent prisoner and 
I also must protect him from a citizen who would desire to do harm to him. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you consider that your physical set up, and by that I mean, 
bricks and cement and steel as well as personnel is adequate to accomplish 
the purposes that you have described as maximum security? 

Mr. Decker. We feel that our men are qualified from the training that is 
given to them, one ; that the jail has passed Federal jail inspection on many 
occasions ; and we feel that our Jail is so constructed that the prisoner is 
protected. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, of course, you are aware that a man by the name of Lee 
Harvey Oswald was in the custody of the Dallas police? 

Mr. Decker. Yes ; I had some oflScers present when he was arrested. 

Mr. Hubert. From the sheriff's oflBce — sheriff's oflScers were present? 

Mr. Decker. Yes ; sheriff's oflBcers were present in Oak Cliff at the time. 
They responded to the assassination of the killing of Tippit, the same as others. 
You see, I was at the scene of the assassination of the President. 

44 



Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Mr. Decker. When my oflBcers were dispatched there, I also told some other 
agencies to send their men over there. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, what is the custom with respect to prisoners who are cap- 
tured or taken into custody by the city police when there is no warrant of 
arrest? 

Mr. Decker. Most prisoners taken in custody by the city police are arrested 
within the corporate limits of the city of Dallas and they in turn are moved 
to the city jail, which is located at the corner of Main and Harwood, or better 
still, in the 2000 block of Main Street, and there confined until their period 
of investigation is completed. 

Mr. Hubert. How long is that? 

Mr. Decker. Well, now, that's a problem I couldn't — there would be no way 
to answer that — how long does it take to make some investigation? 

Mr. Hubert. What I had in mind was whether there was any rule, regulation, 
or law? 

Mr. Decker. No ; someone said once you couldn't hold them over 24 or 36 
hours, but where it is, I don't know. The city ordinance under which most 
municipalities work is — they have a right to arrest and hold for investigation 
until they could determine if a crime has been committed. That leaves it 
pretty blank. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, let's assume that a man has been formally 
charged and that there has been a capias or warrant 

Mr. Decker. It's a warrant in this case. 

Mr. Hubert. Of arrest, which authorizes you to arrest the particular prisoner? 

Mr. Decker. I or one of the constables. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your custom — are there any rules or regulations or laws? 

Mr. Decker. No ; there's no rules or regulations — only this — when a warrant 
is issued — when a complaint is filed with my district attorney or the magistrate, 
which is the justice of the peace, the warrant is issued and delivered to the 
agency. If it is a felony and in the justice court, it goes to the constable, which 
this offense we are speaking about was a felony and should have gone to David 
Johnston, justice of the peace, precinct 2, and the warrants were delivered to 
the city police. 

Mr. HuBBaiT. Now, you are talking about the charge with respect to Tippit, 
are you, or the death of the President, or both? 

Mr. Decker. Well, I rather think it was both. 

Mr. Hubert. The warrants then were not put into your possession at all? 

Mr. Decker. No, sir ; not at that time. 

Mr. Hubert. And that is in accordance with the custom, too? 

Mr. Decker. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. What would normally happen in circumstances such as we are 
dealing with here, where warrants were issued about 7 o'clock in one case, as 
to Tippit, and a little later about 11 o'clock on the 22d of November, as to the 
death of the President, what would be the normal situation as to your getting 
control and custody and your becoming the keeper of these prisoners? 

Mr. Decker. The whole thing would be that if we, if those warrants had 
come through the regular channels to us, we would have contacted — I imagine 
we would have contacted Captain Fritz because it was a homicide and that is 
in his division, and asked him about the prisoner and discussed with him if he 
was ready for transfer — if he was going to transfer or did he want us to 
transfer. That would have been the normal procedure with us. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, it is normal to have them transfer the prisoner 
to you, rather than for you to go and get them, or both? 

Mr. Decker. No ; it is normal but it is not too much — they transfer maybe 
one-tenth of maybe 1 percent, but as hot a piece of merchandise as this prisoner 
was, chances are Captain Fritz and his men would have attempted to bring 
him from the city hall to the courthouse. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, except in rare instances, meaning a situation of 
this sort, you send your men to the city jail to get them? 

45 



Mr. Decker. Day in and day out. We have a paddy wagon for that purpose 
and a driver for the purpose and uniforms and insignias and all on it. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, when did you make any efforts to take custody of Oswald? 

Mr. Decker. I can't tell you that as to when — the homicide occurred and the 
boy was taken in custody in the afternoon and that was on a Friday — I'm not 
going to tell you for certain because there was so much and on Friday after- 
noon we were taking statements in my office — you know — this thing happened, 
occurred just across the street from my office and we moved all the witnesses 
when we were on the ground there at the scene, all the witnesses we could 
locate — I was working there and I had Inspector Sawyer, who is there with 
me, and also Heitman of the FBI and my assistant chief deputy, and every wit- 
ness, just as we picked up a witness that had any information at all, we sent 
him directly across the street to my office and reduced his statement to writing. 
Then, I talked to Fritz after he arrived. 

We had by then located the gun and the ammunition, my officers had located 
it in the building, and was awaiting the arrival of the scene searchers and also 
the arrival of my scene searchers and Fritz arrived and then I talked to Fritz 
and then we went across the street and he phoned and that's when I learned 
Oswald had been formerly employed there at that building. 

And, Fritz went to the city — now, here's something I'm uncertain about — 
whether I talked to him that afternoon or the next day about this removal, 
I cannot tell you because there was so much happening and so much press in our 
hair, I couldn't say, but I did discuss with him and advise with that I wished to 
be notified when he started to move this boy, so that I would have my security 
in shape to receive him when he arrived there. 

Mr. Hubert. You think that was no later than Saturday, the 23d? 

Mr. DECKEai. Oh, no; it wasn't. I don't think it was any later than that — 
no. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, as I understood you, you couldn't tell whether 
it was on Friday or Saturday, but it could not have been Sunday? 

Mr. Decker. No ; it wasn't Sunday. I remembey there were different con- 
versations on Sunday, different conversations on Saturday and different con- 
versations on Saturday night. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, perhaps if you can, you can tell us about these various 
conversations, if you remember them — who they were vdth and about what 
time? 

Mr. Decke:r. Well, on Saturday, the homicide, I believe, if I'm correct — now, 
the date of the homicide of Oswald was what? 

Mr. Hubert. It was Sunday the 24th. 

Mr. Decker. The 24th — Sunday. Friday, after we had completed our investi- 
gation and gotten our files together to some extent, we then closed shop, shall 
we say, and went back into our routine work, and on Saturday arrival at our 
office we then again, I'm reasonably sure that was the day, we talked about 
moving Oswald but I just don't remember. That's one of those things you just 
don't remember the date. 

Mr. Hubert. But you talked to Fritz? 

Mr. Decker. That's when I talked to Fritz. 

Mr. Hubert. What did Fritz tell you, do you know? 

Mr. Decker. He said he would notify me when he was ready to move. 

Mr. Hubert. He wasn't ready at that time? 

Mr. Decker. He wasn't ready at that time, witnesses were being brought in, 
he was still interviewing witnesses. Now, then, later that afternoon the rumor 
w^as out that they were going to bring him down — of course, we had rumors, 
rumors, rumors all the day, because we had worldwide press and they were 
in the city hall, you couldn't get in the city hall for them and they were running 
back and forth down to our pressroom, and this word was here that they were 
coming, so late that afternoon, on Saturday, Jim Kerr was the first man that 
brought me the date of the 10 o'clock transfer Sunday morning. Jim Kerr is 
associated with channel 5, and there were several of the pressmen in my 
office and members of my staff and we were discussing it and later in the 
evening, later about 9 o'clock it was getting on to be, and he notified us they 
were going to move in and I think I then confirmed that with someone in the 

46 



city and they said yes — the next morning at 10 o'clocli and then I went to my 
home. 

Mr. Hubert. Did they say "Next morning at 10," or not before 10? 

Mr. Decker. They said "around 10 o'clock." 

Mr. Hubert. You got that, though, from newsmen, you think? 

Mr. Decker. Jim Kerr is the man that gave me the information. 

Mr. Hubert. You didn't talk to BYitz or Curry about that? 

Mr. Decker. No; but I checked it up at the city with somebody there, and 
I don't know who it was now. 

Mr. Hubert. You, yourself, don't know who it was? 

Mr. Decker. I checked it on the telephone. 

Mr. Hubert. But you don't remember who you talked to ? 

Mr. Decker. No ; I don't remember who I talked to. 

Mr. Hubert. And it was confirmed that he would not be moved that night? 

Mr. Decker. It was confirmed that he wouldn't be moved that night and that's 
all there was to it 

Mr. Hubert. But you say your normal operations went on and I assume you 
went to your home? 

Mr. Decker. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. What time did you get to your oflSce on Sunday, the 24th of 
November? 

Mr. Decker. It was before 10 — around 10 o'clock — wait a minute, let me see if 
I can refresh my memory just a little bit here [examining records in his posses- 
sion]. I am considering that time of when I was advised by the city that transfer 
might be made the first time, if you care to incorporate this in there — the first 
time was 3 :30 p.m. Saturday. At that time it was not at 10 o'clock. I have this 
note — however, I arrived at my oflSce early Sunday morning to recheck all 
security measures that had been provided for the transfer of Oswald, so what 
would be early for me, sir, I am a man that doesn't get down to the office 
until 9 o'clock, and so if I arrived at 9 o'clock, that would be early arrival for 
me, so you can place it near that period. 

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Decker, I would like for you to carry on from there in 
narrative form as to just all of the events that happened as they came to your 
knowledge. 

Mr. Deckeir. You mean on that morning, on Sunday morning? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Decker. For additional security, I placed all members of the press — you 
see, I forgot to give you this a moment ago — on Saturday afternoon and Satur- 
day night when they learned that they were going to transfer Oswald down 
there, the world's press moved from the 2000 block on Main to the 500 block on 
Main. They were laying on my floor, they were laying on the sidewalks 

Mr. Hubert. You mean that was Saturday night? 

Mr. Decker. That was Saturday night, waiting for the Sunday morning 
transfer. They just started moving out of the city hall and moved down there — 
suddenly they were all over the streets, the sidewalks, the floors, we had 
cameras running out our ears. 

Mr. Hubert. Television too? 

Mr. Decker. Yes; everything — live television moved in, and some remained 
at the city, you see, and they set up down there a press — back and forth — so, I 
heard that my halls were full and my carport was full, so I moved them all 
out. I told them to come in the building, bring their cameras with them, that 
they were going to utilize, and the remainder not operate unless they were on 
the street — into a room — you will have to see my building to realize it — it's 
where you walk in the front, you see, the building is on Main and you come in 
the rear from the carport. There is a room that runs down about 45 or 40 
feet, which is just an open hall space and a room where people stand who are 
attempting to get information out of the jail or visit someone in the jail, and 
I moved them into that and closed the doors on them. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you cleared them from where? 

Mr. Decker. I cleared them from the carport, where the man would be 
brought in, and put them behind locked doors — I'm talking about steel doors, 
now. 

47 



Mr. Hubert. So, there was no news press or anybody else at the spot where 
the prisoner would be brought? 

Mr. Deckeb. Well, there may have been some on the street — I'm not so sure 
of that — but what I mean, I cleared the port and kept them in this room where 
they could only see him as he came by one door and by the second door, and 
they were away from him a distance then. He was to be in the carport and 
they were 20 or 25 feet back in the building. 

Mr. Hubert. You say you had them under lock and key, but they could see 
out — could they see through windows? 

Mr. Deckex. No ; bars, they were barred doors. 

Mr. Hubert. Oh, I see. 

Mr. Decked. They were barred doors. 

Mr. Hubert. And you put all the press people out there? 

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you check to see whether they were press people or not? 

Mr. Decker. All in all — I was under the impression that they were — that 
the majority of them were press people. I don't think there was anybody in 
that room that wasn't. 

Mr. Hubert. I mean, did you have any system of checking? 

Mr. Decker. No ; I didn't personally check and search each one of them 
because they had so darn much equipment — everybody had equipment — I don't 
care who they were, and I had my oflBcers mix and mingle with them and 
knew most of them. You see, we got pretty well acquainted with that press 
for 2 or 3 days there because they were continually in our hair, you see. 

Mr. HuBEatT. All right, sir ; go ahead. 

Mr. Decker. At the outside drive, or at the entrance to my carport — I moved 
a couple of my men — four or five of my special men there to be sure that it was 
clear when the man did arrive. I had been notified by Ourry that maybe they 
would bring him down in an armored car and I had some other rumors — they 
would be bringing him in a car, and about that time on those live TV cameras 
in that room, the fiash came that shots had been fired, that there was a riot 
on in the basement of the city hall, and if you will pardon my French and you 
don't need to put this in here, young lady, "We caught lightening in the jug in 
that room," sir. There is no question. They tried to crawl the walls, they 
tried to tear down those barred doors, they tried to do everything to get out 
of there and it looked like I would never get them out of the damn room, 

Mr. Hubert. You mean the ones you had locked up? 

Mr. Decker. The press— they were locked up and couldn't get out of there 
with all of their equipment, so as I say, "We caught lightening in the jug." 
There wasn't any question. Finally, I got the doors open and they tore out on 
Main Street and out on Houston Street and commandeered cars with cameras 
hanging on their backs, some of their own equipment, back up Main Street. I 
lost the majority of them then for a few minutes. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you been given any warning by the FBI that they had 
received a message, or had the message been received, I think, by your oflBce, 
that some attempt would be made by a group to injure Oswald? 

Mr. Decker. That's along 12 :30 or 1 o'clock in the morning — that's when 
that occurred. That's when I got on the telephone, you see, sir — I'm sure 
that you don't understand this, but, you know, but no man — it makes no dif- 
ference how long he is an officer, ever imagined that he could work on an 
investigation the size of this one and therefore, of course, you realize that my 
oflBcers and I'm sure some of the city oflScers, myself included, were working 
under just a little bit of pressure. 

Anyway, this thing you are talking about came to me from my oflSce man, 
Sergeant McCoy, and he had received a call from the Federal Bureau of In- 
vestigation, Milt Newsom, who stated to him that this boy was going to be 
killed and that he had good information. He relayed that message to me at 
my home, and I asked him had the city been notified and he said, "Yes." 

Mr. Hubert. That was early in the morning, as I recall? 

Mr. Decker. It was 12 :30 ; 12 .-30 in the night. 

Mr. Hubert. 12 :30 on the morning of the 24th? 

48 



Mr. Decker. Yes; and I called that oflBce and I talked to a man whom I 
believe to be Frazier, is that correct? 

I don't know the gentleman only there by telephone conversation. 

Mr. Hubert. You, yourself, talked to him and told him what you had 
heard ? 

Mr. DECKiai. I told him what I had heard and talked to him about the trans- 
fer, and I even went so far as to advise McCoy to call in a pair of my super- 
visory personnel to stand by my oflBce, that should they decide to transfer 
this man, they would be available and we would have the other men moved 
in there to make it secure — to have the security. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you make any suggestions that he be mov'ed earlier than 
the time that had been announced? 

Mr. Decker. I did. I suggested to get the man on down to the lower end of 
Main Street. 

Mr. Hubert. Before the time announced? 

Mr. Decker. Yes ; then. 

Mr. Hubert. Who did you say that to — Frazier? 

Mr. Decker. I'm sure I told it to Frazier and I'm sure there was one or 
somebody in Fritz' oflBc'e — I don't remember whether it was Baker or "Wells, 
I talked to one of those persons. 

Mr. Hubert. That was when you got this call from the FBI ? 

Mr. Decker. When I got this call from my night sergeant. 

Mr. Hubert. It was still nighttime? 

Mr. Decker. Yes — it was in the morning — 12:30 in the morning. 

Mr. Hubert. It was your suggestion that he should be moved immediately? 

Mr. Decker. I felt that he should be moved — yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What reply did you get? 

Mr. Decker. They stated that they were going to ask him if he wouldn't 
feel better to talk to his superiors and see what could be done. He called me 
back shortly and stated that he had had no success in contacting them, and I 
think that was about the extent of our conversation. I kept my men, my super- 
visory personnel standing by in the event that they did change their timing or 
anything and notified us. I asked him if he had any success to call me and 
that we would make arrangements to take care of the prisoner either way, and 
I meant by that that we would transfer him or whatever was necessary to be 
done. 

Mr. Hubert. At this point let me ask you: When a man is transferred to 
your custody, may he thereafter be interviewed by the city police? 

Mr. Decker. Anybody who wishes to. 

Mr. Hubert. So that Captain Fritz and others could have continued their 
investigation ? 

Mr. Decker. It's not customary for them to bring a prisoner down until they 
have finished their investigation in the city. 

Mr. Hubert. I understand that, but the transfer to you would not have cut 
off their opportunity to investigate? 

Mr. Decker. Oh, no — no — it wouldn't have cut it off to anybody — any law 
enforcing agency. Just the same as Ruby, Ruby has been interviewed in my 
jail by city police, the FBI agents, and incidentally may I ask you a question? 

Mr. Hubert. Well 

Mr. Decker. If you can answer it, all well and good — I can't. I keep getting 
information here that we are going to have you people — you people are going 
to attempt to interview this prisoner that I have now, and if that is correct, 
why of course I would like to make some provisions to talk to somebody before 
it happens. Of course, it will take a court order for me to move him, which 
of course you know is no trouble to obtain — you know that. 

Mr. Hubert. I can't comment on that. 

Mr. Decker. Don't, if you can't, sir — it's all right, but of course I am leaving 
that with you that I would like to have some advance knowledge. You can 
comment on that — that you will do it if you have any knowledge. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, I'm sure if such a decision is made by the people who are 
authorized to make it, that they will cooperate with you in every way possible. 

49 



Mr. Deckeb. And, I would like to keep it out of the press also because every 
time I turn around with Mr. Ruby, I am blasted with this. 

Mr. Hubert. Of course, that's another matter — that's out of my control. 

Mr. Deckeb. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. I repeat that I think that if such a thing should come about, 
that you would be contacted and that the various problems that might exist 
in the matter would be discussed with you fully and that the persons represent- 
ing the Commission would cooperate with you. 

Mr. Decker. I'm sure they will. 

Mr. Hubert. In every way you wish them to do so, consistent, of course, with 
their mission. 

Mr. Decker. It makes no difference. I'm sorry, but I don't seem to have 
in this file Perry McCoy's statement. I think you have a statement from McCoy. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Mr. Decker. He made one — stating the times that he talked to the man, the 
conversations, and substantiated exactly practically what I said to you. 

Mr. Hubert. I think we have covered the point. 

Mr. Decker. I know you have because I sent him up there to be interviewed. 

Mr. Hubert. I have heretofore shown you two documents identified as 
follows : The first being a report of an interview of you by Officer Neeley. 

Mr. Decker. That's correct. 

Mr. Hubert. On November 27, 1963. 

Mr. Decker. That's where I told him I didn't wish to discuss the matter 
any further over the telephone. 

Mr. Hubert. I have identified it by marking on the margin, "Dallas, Texas, 
April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5321, Deposition of Sheriff J. E. Decker." That consists 
of one page. 

The second document also consists of one page. It is a report of an interview 
by James W. Bookhout of you on November 28, 1963. That document I have 
marked for identification as follows : 

"Dallas, Texas, April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5322, Deposition of Sheriff J. E. 
Decker," and I have signed my name. I think you have had an opportunity 
to read these two? 

Mr. Decker. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. I should like to ask you, sir, if these documents are fair state- 
ments of the interviews that you had with the FBI agents indicated? 

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Are they correct? 

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you any comment to make with respect to either one of 
them? 

Mr. Decker. No, sir ; I think they speak for themselves, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. May I ask if you have any particular comment, sheriff, to make 
with regard to the last paragraph of exhibit 5321, which reads in part as follows : 

"Sheriff Decker stated that he had no desire to discuss this matter further 
and does not desire to furnish any details of the conversations he had with 
the Police Department and declined to say whether he advised the Police Depart- 
ment he had a preference as to the time of day the transfer of the prisoner 
should be made." 

Mr. Decker. That was a telephone conversation. I had an office full of people 
and that's what it was and I didn't make any statement — no more than I made 
directly to you here about the call, and which McCoy made, which is a state- 
ment which you have from McCoy in your files. 

Mr. Hubert. As I understand it, then, your explanation of the paragraph is 
that you did not wish to discuss the matter further over the telephone and in 
the presence of the people who were there? 

Mr. Decker. Well, I don't believe I went that far. I just said I didn't care 
to discuss it any further and I got my friend Neeley off the line. That's all 
there was to it. And I never had the opportunity to talk to him afterward 
again until I met him several days ago, you know, he works in north Texas 
and is in and out, but that's all the conversation he and I had — what you have 
there. 

50 



Mr. Hubert. Well, what I had in mind to ask you was this : On the face of 
the paragraph that I have just read from Exhibit 5321, it looks like there was 
an attitude on your part that you didn't wish to cooperate with the FBI — 
I am just simply wanting to get the record straight from your point of view — 
as to what was your intention. 

Mr. Decker. As I said at that time — I didn't care to discuss it any further 
at that time. That's all there is to it. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes ; I understand, but this paragraph is correct and stands 
as it is? 

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir ; I did not — at that time I didn't discuss it. There was 
no reason to go into why, and why — I told him my reasons a moment ago. 

Mr. Hube:rt. Now, sheriff, I have noticed that you have looked from time to 
time at a book which I gather must be your own or the official record? 

Mr. Decker. No ; it's part of my records there. It doesn't have all the state- 
ments in it as it should have. 

Mr. Hubert. Were copies of those statements made — are they available? 

Mr. Decker. They are yours — you can have them if you want them to keep 
them. 

Mr. Hubert. This copy? 

Mr. Decker. You can have the whole thing. The only thing that is not in 
there is McCoy's and about three or four other statements. I will submit the 
whole thing to you if you want it right now. You can take it with you. I have 
no objections. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you wish to have this returned to you — this seems to be a 
copy anyway — this is not the original. 

Mr. Decker. Yes ; those are photostatic copies. I can furnish you those 
others — I can furnish you that copy on McCoy and I can furnish the copy on two 
or three others that I have down there but I don't know where McCoy's is and 
I don't know whether they left it out of there or not — since McCoy's I have 
testified to, I would like to furnish it to you. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

Mr. Decker. And will send it to you shortly. 

Mr. Hubert. Let me mark this document, then — I am marking it, "Dallas, 
Tex., April 16, 1964, as Exhibit 5323, Deposition of Sheriff J. E. Decker," and 
I am signing my name to it. 

The document is actually a dark brown heavy folder with an Acco fastener. 
It is called Acco Press on the inside and bears the label on the outside, "Harvey 
Lee Oswald, WM 24, Murder— 11-22-63 of John Fitzgerald Kennedy ; W-M^6, 
President of the United States. Assault to murder : Gov. John B. Connally." 
On the left hand bottom side of the cover is a sticker on which there is type- 
written "File of: Sheriff's Department, Dallas, Tex., Bill Decker, Sheriff," 
under which I have written the identification of it as I dictated it a moment 
ago into the record. 

Turning on to the inside of the book, it seems to be divided up into parts. 
There is a yellow, light cardboard division marker, which in the left hand bottom 
says, "Crime Reports." In that are 2 yellow sheets and 10 white sheets. I am 
marking the cover with my initials and the yellow and white sheets with my 
initials, all in the lower right hand corner. The next subdivision which is made 
by a light cardboard sheet, is entitled, "Witness affidavits." I am marking it 
with my initials. 

Mr. Decker. Now, you are supposed to have copies of all of those affidavits 
come to you from some agency — I don't know which. 

Mr. Hubert. And, each of the sheets thereof I am marking with my initials. 
There are 35 of such sheets. 

Then, in the last part of the book, also divided by a light yellow cardboard 
sheet on which I am putting my initials, that division sheet is entitled "Officers 
supplement," and there are 42 sheets which I have marked with my initials. 
Is this document. Sheriff Decker, that you have handed me a complete record of 
what you have concerning Oswald? I think you mentioned that there might 
be one document or two that you wished to send me? 

Mr. Decker. I would like to send you a copy of McCoy's statement, a copy 
of McCoy's report in there and maybe a couple of other statements, that's all. 

51 



There may be some others — I can send those to you anywhere — Washington or 
anywhere, it makes no difference, or I can send them up here to you in the next 
45 minutes after I leave here. 

Mr. HuBEBT. After lunch will be all right. 

Mr. Decker. Fine, I will send them up. 

Mr. Hubert. I will just attach them to this exhibit. 

Mr. Decker. That's all right — they belong in there and I don't know how they 
got out, but in comparing them, making a new one up, you lose some once in a 
while — as much paperwork as we do in law enforcement fields this day and time, 
you lose a heck of a lot of it. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, Sheriff Decker, has any member of the Commission's staff 
interviewed you other than myself? 

Mr. Decker. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you anything further you wish to add? 

Mr. Decker. I don't know why I should take any more of your time. You 
have practically everything I have that is of value to you. If there is anything 
further you want— we are available and you have a big job to do 

Mr. Hubert. Well, that's all right — that's what I'm here for. 

Mr. Decker. I know that. 

Mr. Hubert. But if we know all that you know, then that's all right. 

Mr. Deckb31. That's right — so, there is no reason of going over it. 

Mr. Hubert. Is it your thought that considering your testimony here today 
and what you have told the FBI and your records 

Mr. Decker. And my records that I have given to you — turned over to you 
and what my other deputies have given to you, I don't know of any reason to 
take up any more of your time, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, thank you very much. 

Mr. Decker. I will be delighted to have you come and see my operation before 
you leave and it might clear up some things there for you. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, thank you. 

Mr. Decker. Thank you. 



TESTIMONY OF CAPT. W. B. FRAZIER 

The testimony of Oapt. W. B. Frazier was taken at 2 p.m., on March 25, 1964, 
in the oflBce of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the Presi- 
dent's Commission. 

Mr. Hubert. TMs is the deposition of Capt. W. B. Frazier, Dallas Police 
Department. Captain Frazier, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the 
advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission on the 
Assassination of President Kennedy. 

Captain Frazier. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Under the provisions of President Johnson's Executive Order 
No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 
137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in con- 
formance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been author- 
ized to take a sworn deposition from you, among many officers of the detective 
bureau. Your name has been specifically mentioned as a person from whom I 
could take a sworn deposition. I state to you now that the general nature of the 
Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relat- 
ing to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death 
of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you. Captain Frazier, the nature off 
the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald 
and any other i)ertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, 
Captain, you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter addressed to Chief 
Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel for the President's Com- 
mission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission every witness is entitled 
to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition. The rules also 

52 



provide, however, that if the witness wishes he may waive the 3-day notice in 
writing. I say to you that you have a right to the 3-day notice, which you have 
not received, but I ask you if you wish to waive that 3 day 

Captain Frazier. No. 

Mr. Hubert. You don't wish 

Captain Frazier. Oh, I will waive it. 

Mr. Hubert. You do not wish to persist in your right to have the 3-day notice? 

Captain Frazier. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Then I'll ask you to stand, sir, and raise your right hand to 
be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God? 

Captain Frazier. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you state your full name, please? 

Mr. Frazier. William Bennett Frazier. 

Mr. Hubert. Your age? 

Mr. Frazier. Forty-three. 

Mr. Hubert. Where do you live, sir? 

Mr. Frazier. 2205 Newcastle, Garland, Tex. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Frazier. Police oflBcer. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been on the police department of Dallas? 

Mr. Frazier. For 17i/^ years. 

Mr. Hubert. You have the rank of captain? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What particular function or duties are you assigned to in the 
department, sir? 

Mr. Frazier. I am in charge of the radio patrol platoon. 

Mr. Hubert. Who is your immediate superior? 

Mr. Frazier. Chief N. T. Fisher. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you have the same rank and the same duties during the 
period November 22 to 24, 1963? 

Mr. Frazier. I did, yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I understand that you were on duty on the morning of the 
24th of November, is that correct, sir? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What time did you come on duty? Do you know? 

Mr. Frazier. At 11 p.m., on the 23d. 

Mr. Hubert. I think that is what they call the first shift? 

Mr. Frazier. First platoon. 

Mr. Hubert. First platoon, rather, and that goes until roughly 7 in the 
morning? 

Mr. Frazier. Around 7 ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Had you been on duty the night before, that is, on first platoon. 
That would have been 

Mr. Frazier. What day would it have been, sir? 

Mr. Hubert. Well, it would have been the 23d. 

Mr. Frazier. I mean, what day of the week. 

Mr. Hubert. Oh, the day before would have been Saturday. 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir ; I was on duty at the time. That would have been the 
first platoon. Yes, sir ; I was on duty at the time. 

Mr. Hubert. Was your oflBce, in fact, in the building? 

Mr. Frazier. On the second floor. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you have anything to do at all with the interrogation, or the 
security of Oswald? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, on the 24th of November, about in the middle of the shift 
there, about 3 or 3 :30 or 3 :45 that morning, I understand you received a tele- 
phone call from an FBI agent, is that correct? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir ; Mr. Newsom, I believe his name is. 

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell me how it came to you? How did the call come to 
you? 

Mr. Frazier. Mr. Newsom called me and said he had received a threat from 

53 



some man to the effect that a group of men, I believe he Indicated they had 
100 or 200, I don't recall the exact number, were going to attempt to kill 
Oswald that day sometime. That he didn't want the FBI, Dallas Police De- 
partment or the sheriff's office injured in any way. That was the reason for the 
call. So, Mr. Newsom called me and related that story to me. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you in charge of the police department at the time? 

Mr. Fbazier. I was in charge of the patrol section. 

Mr. Hubert. Patrol section? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What other senior officers were on duty? 

Mr. Frazier. I guess I was the senior on any division at that morning; yes, 
sir, 

Mr, Hubert. As I understand it, Chief Curry was not there, Chief Batchelor 
was not there? 

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Stevenson was not there? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Who is your immediate superior? 

Mr. Frazier. Fisher. He was not there. 

Mr. Hubert. You, in fact, were the ranking officer? 

Mr. Frazier. On duty at that time ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you aware of that? I mean, are you made aware of that? 

Mr. Frazier. Oh, yes, sir ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. How is it done? 

Mr. Frazier. Well, just the fact that the officers under — who rank under you 
are there, and there is nobody of equal rank or higher present in the entire 
police department, it reverts to you. 

Mr. Hubert. The highest in rank is in charge of the whole operation? 

Mr. Frazier. It is. 

Mr. Hubert. So, if someone had asked for who was in — if Newsom had asked 
to speak to the top man in charge, you were that man, that day? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Had you heard any of that news of that sort from another 
source? 

Mr. Frazier, No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Deputy Cox, or Coy in the 
sheriff's 

Mr. Frazier. I talked to that man later on in the morning after Mr. Newsom 
called me. But I don't know the name, whether it was Coy, or Cox, but he in- 
dicated that Sheriff Decker wanted to talk to Chief Curry in regards to moving 
Oswald, so, I, in turn then attempted to contact Chief Curry by telephone and his 
line was busy. 

Mr. Hubert. That was about what time? 

Mr. Frazier. I don't know. 5:45, 6 o'clock, somewhere along there. Then I 
tried for some 10 or 15 minutes to get his line, and it was busy, so, I asked the 
operator to check into it. She came back and said the line was out of order, 
so, I in turn, was preparing to send a squad by the chief's home and tell him of 
the information and that Decker wanted him to call him and Captain Talbert re- 
lieved me around 6 or 6 :15. I give him the information and he said he sent a 
squad later and told the chief about it. 

Mr. Hubert. I think earlier you had called Captain Fritz, hadn't you? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, I called Captain Fritz once or twice in an effort to see if 
they were handling it or if the chief was handling it, or if homicide — Captain 
Fritz was handling it. Since he is the captain in charge of that particular 
bureau, so, naturally I called him first. 

Mr. Hubert. That was when you got the message from Newsom? 

Mr. Frazier. A little while later ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What did he say about it? 

Mr. Frazier. He said I should talk to Chief Curry, that he was handling 
the transfer. 

Mr. Hubert. That Chief Curry 

Mr. Feaziee. Yes, sir; not him, 

54 



Mr. Hubert. Not him? Did he tell you of any plans made for the transfer? 
Did Captain Fritz tell you of any plans made for the transfer? 

Mr. Fbazier. I don't recall, sir. He may have said — I'm not sure. I heard 
this later on in the morning, I think, but I'm not sure. He may have said 
then that he planned to move him around 10 the next day. I don't recall 
whether he said it or some other oflScer said it later on in the morning, but I 
did hear it. Nove, I don't say v^hether Captain Fritz is the one that told me 
or not. I don't recall the exact conversation there other than the fact that I 
had asked him if he was handling it and he said, "No." Chief Curry was 
handling it. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. Do you remember when yoli spoke to Mr. Newsom from the 
FBI whether Mr. Newsom told you that the Dallas Sheriff's OflSce had received 
a similar call to the one he was relating to you? 

Mr. Frazier. No ; i don't recall that. He possibly — he could have said it, 
but I do not recall it, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. When the gentlemen from the sheriff's oflBce, either Cox or 
Coy, called you that was simply about when the transfer was going to take 
place, is that correct? 

Mr. Frazier. I assume that is what it was. He indicated to me that Decker 
wanted to get ahold of Chief Curry and move him as soon as possible. 

Mr. Hubert. Did that man mention to you about the receipt of any threats 
such as Newsom had told you about? 

Mr. Frazier. I believe he did. 

Mr. Hubert. That was the second threat you had received that morning? 
In other words, the threat came from two sources, so far as you know. You 
heard it from the FBI, and this man from the sheriff's oflSce? 

Mr. Frazier. Indicated 

Mr. Hubert. Indicated that he had received a threat? 

Mr. Frazier. I believe he did ; yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember saying to Mr. Newsom that the plan to trans- 
fer Oswald to the county jail might be changed in view of the threat that he 
had conveyed to you? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir ; no, sir. That wasn't any of my business, that transfer, 
and I'm sure I didn't relate that to him, because I'd be telling him something 
that I didn't know about, really, at that time. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember telling Mr. Newsom of the FBI, on the oc- 
casion that he called you that morning around 2 or 2:30, that Oswald's plans 
of transfer had been publicized primarily as a form of cooperation with press 
and news agencies? 

Mr. F'razier. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. You did not make that 

Mr. Frazier. Huh-uh. 

Mr. Hubert. You did not make that statement? 

Mr. Frazier. I did not make any such statement. 

Mr. Hubert. Was there any planned transfer, to your knowledge? 

Mr. Frazier. All I knew that they was supposed to move the next day, and 
then perhaps later in the morning I — maybe Captain Fritz told me that they 
were supposed to move him around 10 a.m., that morning. 

Mr. Hubert. That is as to time, but did you know of any plans prior to go- 
ing off dlity that day as to the method, the route, and the vehicles to be used? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; no, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What time did you go oflf duty, sir? 

Mr. Frazier. It was around 6 or 6 :15, or something like that, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What time did you come back then? 

Mr. Frazier. If that was 

Mr. Hubert. Did you leave the department and go home? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes; I went home and I went to bed. I was asleep when Os- 
wald was shot. 

Mr. Hubert. When did you hear about that? 

Mr. Frazier. My wife awakened me shortly thereafter. She had seen it on 
TV. She was watching the transfer on TV, and she awakened me. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you go down there? 

55 

731-228 O — 64 — vol. XII 5 



Mr. Fbazier. No, sir ; I called and asked if they needed me. They said, 
"No, stay where you are. You will have to work tonight." So, I stayed there. 

Mr. Hubert. Fritz has said — did I understand you to say, that Curry was 
in charge of all transfers? 

Mr. Frazier. Was in charge of that transfer. 

Mr. Hubert. Of that particular — of Oswald's transfer? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes. 

Mr. HuBEKT. Do you know a man by the name of W. J. Harrison, I think they 
call him "Blackie," a detective? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; he is a patrolman temporarily assigned to CID. Yes, 
sir; I believe he is in the juvenile bureau. I'm not sure, but I think he is. 

Mr. Hubert. Did yoti ever hear him talk about his experiences on the 24th? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I haven't seen him. I haven t seen "Blackie" in, I 
guess, 6 months or so, maybe longer. 

Mr. HuBE^RT. Do you know Patrick Dean? 

Mr. Frazier. P. T. Dean? Sergeant Dean? I know him; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you spoken to him about his activities on that day? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir ; he works on another platoon and another captain 
and I don't come in contact with him very often except just to say hello as 
we are going off duty or coming on and only one I confer with is the captain 
in charge of the platoon coming on when I leave. 

Mr. Hubert. The radio patrol is what, actually? 

Mr. Frazier. It is the regular squad car, two-man squad car that patrols 
the entire city. We have anywhere from 185 to 205 men on duty at most pla- 
toons. However, our day platoon is our lowest. It will run 120, 125. 

Mr. Hubert. These men are cruising areas? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; districts. 

Mr. Hubert. And they are controlled by radio communication from your 
office? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir ; from the dispatcher's office, which is 

Mr. Hubert. So, if you want to contact any of those people you can do it 
directly, you do it throligh a dispatcher? 

Mr. Frazier. Through the dispatcher ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. When you — were you on duty when the President was shot? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you called in? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. You just took your regular shift at 11 o'clock that night? 

Mr. Frazib:r. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. You had gotten off at 7 o'clock? 

Mr. Frazier. 6 or 7 that morning ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. If we would want to find out about the dispatch sent out right 
after the President's death, or right before, whom would we contact? What 
would be the name of the officer? 

Mr. Frazier. Lumpkin, George Lumpkin. 

Mr. Hubert. Lumpkin? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; he is in charge of all communications and I believe 
most of that is on tape. They tried to tape most of the conversations. 

Mr. HuBEajT. They keep the tape? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes ; permanent records, as I understand it. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you a document which I have marked for identifi- 
cation with the following inscription, in my own handwriting, "Dallas, Tex., 
March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5086, deposition of W. B. Frazier." I have signed 
the first page, and placed my initials in the lower right hand corner of the 
second page. I'll ask you if that statement — if you have read that document 
and whether it is substantially correct? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; it is. 

Mr. HuBEatT. I would ask you, therefore, if you would sign your name under 
mine and place your initials under mine on the second page? 

Mr. FRAZiEai. Right here, sir? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes; right there and then sign your name on the front page 
right under my signature there. 

56 



Mr. Frazier. Over here? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Mr. FRAZIE3J. All right, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I hand you another document which I have marked for — 
"Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5087, deposition of W. B. Frazier." I 
have signed my name to the bottom of this document which purports to be a 
report by Special Agent Melton L. Newsom of the FBI, of a conversation which 
he had over the telephone with you on November 24, 1963, at about 3 :20 a.m., 
and I'll ask you if that report by Mr. Newsom of that conversation is a correct 
report of that conversation? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir ; I don't believe it is. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you indicate what parts are correct and what parts are 
wrong? 

Mr. Frazier. Now, you are asking of my own knowledge, is that correct? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Frazier. Now, this first paragraph here, I know nothing of this. Mr. 
Glassup. He didn't talk to me. 

Mr. Hubert. No ; I think the 

Mr. Frazier. And, he received the call I understand here, and it goes into, 
"I represent a committee that — it is neither right nor left wing," and so forth. 
I didn't get all that in the conversation with Newson, that I recall. Newsom 
told me that a group of men, I believe he indicated a hundred or two were 
going to kill Oswald the following day, the day after the night — or, you know, 
the next day or two. Now, that was essentially what he told me. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you say he didn't tell you that had been received by Glassup? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir ; he said they received information, or threats. 

Mr. Hubert. Nor did he give you the exact language of the threat, as indi- 
cated in that? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir ; he did not. 

Mr. Hubert. He simply told you that they had received the threat and the 
sense of the threat was along the lines of the paragraph, first paragraph? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. But, neither mentioned Glassup's name, nor did he speak the 
exact quoted language which — when he spoke to you? 

Mr. Frazier. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, what about the next paragraph, second paragraph? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir ; that is essentially correct. However, I believe he did 
advise the Dallas sheriff's office had received a similar call. That is essentially 
correct, that paragraph. 

Mr. Hubert. All right; what about the third paragraph? 

Mr. Frazier. The third paragraph, I don't recall making that statement. 

Mr. Hubert. What about the fourth paragraph? 

Mr. Frazier. Because, at that time, I did not know exactly what the plans 
were to move Oswald, see. 

Mr. Hubert. And what about the last paragraph? 

Mr. FRAZIE3C. No, sir; no, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. You mean to say that you do not recall? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir ; I do not recall making that statement to Mr. Newsom. 

Mr. Hubert. I would like for you to do this then with reference to that docu- 
ment. Just place the word, next to the last paragraph, "incorrect," and ini- 
tial it. 

Mr. Frazier. All right, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you initialled it? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right ; now, with that 

Mr. Frazier. And the top paragraph. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, the top paragraph 

Mr. Frazier. I couldn't attest to that either. 

Mr. Hubert. Please explain what your position is on it, and if you would 
like to sign your name just below mine so then we have the matter in hand. 

Mr. Fbaziee. Yes, sir. 

57 



Mr. Hubert. Now, is there anything else that you would like to state that 
has not been said? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir ; nothing more to my knowledge. 

Mr. Hubert. Prior to the commencement of this deposition with you, have 
you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's Staff? 

Mr. Frazier. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. You were not interviewed by me, in fact, before it began? 

Mr. Frazier. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Thank you very much. 



TESTIMONY OF CAPT. O. A. JONES 

The testimony of Capt. O. A. Jones was taken at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, 
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the 
President's Commission. 

Mr. Hubert. This is the Dallas deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones, Forgery 
Bureau, Dallas Police Department. My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am a 
member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission 
on the Assassination of President Kennedy. 

Under the Provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, 
the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted 
by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the Commission, 
I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Jones. I state 
to you now that the general nature on the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, 
evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President 
Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. 

In particular as to you Captain Jones, the nature of the inquiry today is to 
determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other perti- 
nent fact you may know about the general inquiry. Captain Jones, you have 
appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel 
on the staff of the President's Commission to Chief Curry. 

Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to have a 3-day 
written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. The rules of the Com- 
mission also provide that the witness may waive the notice. Do you waive the 
3-day notice now? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir ; I do. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you be sworn, please? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Captain Jones. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. Captain Jones, please state your full name? 

Captain Jones. Orville [spelling] 0-r-v-i-l-l-e Aubrey [spelling] A-u-b-r-e-y 
Jones. 

Mr. Hubert. Your age? 

Captain Jones. Forty-nine. 

Mr. Hubert. And your residence? 

Captain Jones. 2603 Alco [spelling] A-l-c-o Avenue, Dallas 11, Tex. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your present occupation. Captain Jones? 

Captain Jones. Captain in the city police department, Dallas, Tex. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you held that rank, sir? 

Captain Jones. April of 1957. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your particular assignment now? 

Captain Jones. Commanding officer in the forgery bureau. 

Mr. Hubert. You are under Chief Stevenson? 

Captain Jones. M. W. Stevenson is my superior officer. 

58 



Mr. Hubert. And your rank and duties were the same during the period of 
November 22 and 24, 1963? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, Captain, I show you three documents which I am num- 
bering — I show you three documents upon which I am writing the following in 
the lower right-hand corner. "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 
5054, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones." Beneath which I have signed my name, 
Leon D. Hubert. The second document which I am endorsing "Dallas, Texas, 
March 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 5055, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am sign- 
ing my signature below that. That document consisting of three pages, and I 
am initialing — two other — to revert back for a moment to No. 5054, that has 
a second page and I am placing my initials on the second page of that document 
in the lower right-hand corner. Third document, I am writing on the right- 
hand margin the following: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5056. 
Deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am signing my name below that. That 
document containing three pages. I am taking my initials and placing them 
on the second and third pages. Now, Captain, I think you have read these 
three documents which I 

Captain Jones. I have ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I would like you to place your name below mine on each 
one of these pages, please, and your initials below mine on the other pages, after 
which I'm going to ask you some questions concerning these documents. 

Captain Jones. All right, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Just below mine and then initial the second and third page below 
my initials there. Now, Captain, I think you have already stated that you have 
read these three documents? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Exhibit 5054, 5055, and 5056, and I am going to ask you if, in 
your opinion, those documents represent the truth, or if you have any kind of 
amendments, modifications, or additions that you want to make? 

Captain Jones. There are some additions. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you state for the record what amendments or modifica- 
tions, whatever else you have to about the documents. 

Captain Jones. This is off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Hubert. Now. back on the record. Anyhow, with reference directed at 
5054, Captain, what have you to say as to that? That being a report of Special 
Agents James W. Bookhout and Joseph M. Meyers, of an interview of you by 
those gentlemen on November 25, 1963. 

Captain Jones. First, let me say that they make reference — they are correct, 
but they have grouped together under "specific instructions that I received." 
I received, at two different times, that is not at the same time. At first, when I 
was sent downstairs Chief Stevenson gave me instructions to go to the Com- 
merce Street ramp, place two patrolmen there to assist an armored car down 
that ramp to get it backed as far down as possible, down in the basement 

Mr. Hubert. Before you leave that, do you know about what time it was? 

Captain Jones. I'd say only about 11 o'clock, and it could have been a little 
before because of the amount of time required on that, but I didn't look at my 
watch. 

Mr. Hubert. Thank you. 

Captain Jones. Do you want me to go on to the other points? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Captain Jones. The other part. In one sentence I gave, he has specific in- 
structions about keeping them back, and Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson 
did so later when they came to the basement, and I called the attention that 
photographers were out in the other part of the jail ofl5ce now, and there was 
nothing said upstairs — said about clearing anything except what I said that one 
thing, except — take — taking any detectives remaining on the third floor and 
placing them where I wanted them, where I felt they would be needed. That 
goes into it a little more in detail, but by having that in front of me right now. 
If you could, I can show you the point that he states he instructed me to secure 
the area for the transport of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to 

69 



the Dallas County Jail — with additional specific instructions from Chief Steven- 
son or Chief Batchelor or to have detectives under their supervision to question 
the news media to keep the basement east of the driveway — that came up after 
we got down in the basement, and it reads maybe as if it was given at another 
place. 

Mr. Hubert. What you have just read and commented upon is from the first 
paragraph of a document 5054 ? Right ? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir ; right. 

Mr. HxjBERT. Go ahead now. 

Captain Jones. The — in other words, the two instructions given previously 
before I went to the basement were: One, to arrange to have ofllicers assist the 
armored truck which they told me was en route, to back into the Commerce 
Street ramp down into the city hall and as far as possible. Number two ; take 
any remaining detectives from the third fioor down to the basement and place 
them where I thought they might be needed. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you state for the record how you carried out those specific 
orders? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir ; I made a round of all CIB Bureaus, with the excep- 
tion of homicide and robbery, which was working on the assassination, and got. — 
I can't tell you, two or three or some detectives that were lemaining, and we 
went down the elevator. This is the one I went down with the — ^and I don't 
know who they were, and don't have any names. Didn't make a detail — ^but 
1 went up and did see Patrolman Jez and one other patrolman that I don't know 
his name 

Mr. Hubert. They were in uniform? 

Captain Jones. They were in uniform. They would remain and assist the 
armored truck in backing down there. And the detectives that had come with 
me were standing at the jail oflSce. I had left them at the door of the jail 
oflSce, and coming back toward the ramp, I came upon Captain Talbert, in 
charge of the patrol division, and told him that Patrolman Jez and the other 
oflBcer were up there and what the Chief had said. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, have you any other comments to make about 

Captain Jones. Now, that is all about that. 

Mr. Hubbxt. Now, I understand that that is document 5054? 

Captain Jones. Let me check on this now for sure. That is — ^yes ; that is all 
right now. 

Mr. HxjBERT. All right. And Exhibit 5055. 

Captain Jones. May I ask you a question? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes, sir. 

Captain Jones. Now then, the instructions about checking that, you want to 
get to that later that I got — where Chief Batchelor and Chief Sevenson 

Mr. HUBBXT. What I want to do is get through these documents. 

Captain Jones. All right, sir. Now, our next exhibit. That would be 5055 ? 

Mr. HxJBERT. Yes. That is the letter addressed on November 26th, to Chief 
J. E. Curry? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. This is a copy of the original which apparently was signed by 
you? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir ; tJiat's right. 

Mr. HtJBERT. I think you have read it. 

Captain Jones. I have read it, and only one thing on that. That is on page 2, 
at the top — ^where I had two different directions running from the jail oflSce 
door across the ramp running east, and then I turned and went south, and we 
called that east, too, but it is — only thing the right is running, instead of east, 
should have read south. 

Mr. Hubert. Where is that, sir? 

Captain Jones. All right, sir. I will show you. Up here this word "east," 
probably should be "south." 

Mr. Hubert. Suppose we change that from "this point running east," and 
I will encircle it and put the word "south," and putting my own initial below 
the change, and ask you if you would 

Captain Jones. Running east from the door of the jail oflSce to the rail 

60 



on the opposite side, and down a line from this point running south. Yes, sir ; 
that'si right. 

Mr. Hubert. So, just initial the change then and the word "east," which we 
encircled and changed to "south," and Captain Jones and myself are initialling 
the change. 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. HxJBERT. Other than that, do you have any changes that should be made? 

Captain Jones. Let that stand. 

Mr. Hubert. Then this document which I have identified as Exhibit 5056, 
being the report by the FBI, specifically by Agents Edward Mabey and Ken- 
neth Hughes [spelling] H-u-g-h-e-s, of an interview with you, apparently, 
on December 2, 1963, and ask you if you have any corrections to make as to 
that? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; there are one or two changes that I would like to 
make in that. 

Mr. HuBBXT. All right. 

Captain Jones. Let's see. Can I see it just one moment, sir? 

Mr. Hubert. Sure. 

Captain Jones. All right. I would like to make the following changes. At the 
bottom of page 1, of Exhibit— that is 5056, I believe? 

Mr. Hubert. That's right. 

Captain Jones. The last sentence that reads, "Jones assisted in holding back 
the press line during the process, and gave instructions to all oflBcers near the 
jail office and the door to allow no one in the area from the jail to the auto- 
mobile, down the route the prisoner was to take." 

Mr. Hubert. Now, what is your comment? 

Captain Jones. The comment is that the sentence should have read, "Jones 
assisted holding back the press lines through the process of moving the auto- 
mobile onto the ramp." The rest of the sentence refers back to just prior to 
that when the instructions had been given to keep those things clear. Im- 
mediately following the clearing of the jail office is when I gave those instruc- 
tions at that time, to hold the people back and get those — I did not have time 
or the opportunity, and did not turn at that time and tell everybody that we were 
trying to get the car back up into position. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you any change or comments to make upon the docxmient — 
5056? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir ; on page 2, of this same exhibit. 

Mr. Hubert. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Hubert. Now, back on the record. 

Captain Jones. Beginning with the first complete paragraph that says, "Jones 
was walking up the Commerce Street ramp when he heard from behind him, 
'Here he comes,' from an unidentified individual," and on that, there is only 
one change. 

Whereas, Jones was walking toward the Commerce Street ramp instead of up 
it, now. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you were not 

Captain Jones. In other words, I was not up on the rise itself. I was walking 
toward it. 

Mr. Hubkbt. Heading from what direction? 

Captain Jones. From the general area in front of the Jail office door, out in 
the flat area. The ramps come down like [indicating] straighten out. The 
jail is here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, what you wish to point out is that the Commerce 
Street ramp takes an upturn about half way up the ramp? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hxjbert. And that you want to indicate that you had not reached the 
up- rise? 

Captain Jones. No, sir; I had not. 

Mr. Hubert. But, you were in the ramp that runs between Main and Com- 
merce, but on the level part? 

Captain Jones. On the level part, and walking toward the rise. 

61 



Mr. Hubert. Walking toward the rise. Any other comments concerning 
that? 

Captiain Jones. Yes, sir ; on page 3 

Mr. HtJBEBT. 5056? 

Captain Jones. 5056. 

Mr. HtTBEBT. What paragraph? 

Captain Jones. It will be the last sentence ; begins on page 2. 

Mr. Hubert. All right ; the last sentence beginning on page 2. Will you read 
it then? 

Captain Jones. "Jones then placed two oflScers at the swinging door just out- 
side the jail oflBce, and advised them not to let persons leave who had proper 
identification 

Mr. HUBBXT. Latter part of that sentence is at the top of page 3, of that 
Exhibit 5056, is that right? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. The correction, sir, that is "Jones then placed two 
officers at the swinging doors just outside the jail office and advised them to 
let the reporters and news media who had identification come to the third 
floor." • 

Mr. Hubert. Other than that change, that sentence, you think, is correct? 

Captain Jones. That's correct, yes, sir. Now, I have one more. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. What page? 

Captain Jones. It is the last paragraph of page 3, first sentence that reads 

Mr. Hubert. Now, you are talking about Exhibit 5056? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

"Due to the fact that Jones was recalled from vacation, he wasn't present at 
any briefing on the security measures that were to be in effect in the basement 
on November 24, 1963." 

Mr. Hubert. All right? 

Captain Jones. Now, on that, I had been due to go on vacation on Friday. I 
had continued on through. I don't know why I wasn't in on any briefing or 
anything. I am going to say that is the reason I wasn't, for I was down 
there, and that was, I'm sure — I have told the gentlemen these facts and so 
forth, but that I didn't attend a briefing, that I had planned to go on vacation 
immediately after the President's speech at the the Trade Mart, and — but I can't 
say why I wasn't called in on any briefing. I just wasn't in on any of them. 

Mr. HUBE31T. Just while we are on that subject, is it a fact that you were 
supposed to go on a leave as soon as the President left Dallas? 

Captain Jones. On Friday ; yes, sir. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. On Friday? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. In fact, did you go? 

Captain Jones. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you state very briefly for me your activities from the time 
of the night before the President's visit up until the 24th? Just very briefly. 

Captain Jones. All right, sir. I had been assigned previously in the week 
to have charge of the fourth floor at the Trade Mart where the President's 
luncheon was to be held. On Thursday night before 

Mr. Hubert. Wait. Thursday night? 

Captain Jones. Thursday night before the luncheon. I was rather wakeful 
and a little nervous, certainly not anticipating an assassination, but because of 
some unfortunate incidents in Dallas, there was a desire not to have anything 
happen that would reflect on the city, and certainly even a humiliating incident 
such as throwing paper, eggs, or shouting or anything such as that. A little 
apprehensive about it, and didn't sleep very much. Went out to the Trade 
Mart on Friday and stationed quite a few officers at all the places on the fourth 
floor. 

I had a listing and a schedule and all that. Remained there until afternoon — 
that is, after news of the assassination, and until we were told that we could 
leave. I then returned to the city hall and en route had cleared with the dis- 
patcher that if he didn't have further instructions for the group with me that 
we would return to the city hall. 

I returned, and I immediately made every officer available to Captain Fritz. 

62 



I don't know how long that we worked that night for sure, but I do know It was 
after 2 o'clock when the FBI Agent Vlnce Drain left the city hall with some — 
some evidence he was going to take, and that was about 2 o'clock, Saturday 
morning, the 24th. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you go home 

Captain Jones. Yes, I did go home for jiossibly 2 to 3 hours and laid down. 
Didn't rest very much. We came back down Saturday and continued working 
with Captain Fritz. Making my offices available and my men available to him 
during the day Saturday until Saturday evening when we filed our — our bureau 
filed the assault to murder charge on Oswald for the shooting of Governor Con- 
nally, which is our bureau that, assault to murder — that handles assault to 
murder. 

Captain Fritz' bureau handles murder, and by this time I — that was filed, I 
began to help take incoming calls and to assist in any way that I could up there 
in the administration offices. Stayed iip there until at least nearly midnight 
Saturday night. Went home, got a few hours of troubled sleep that night. 
Before I left, Chief Stevenson told me that it looked like my cases were all 
filed, everything was in pretty good shape, I might as well go ahead and take my 
vacation as I had planned and I told him I couldn't enjoy — a little fishing trip 
was what I had planned — until it was all over. 

Mr. Hubert. Let me go back a moment. There was a lineup of some kind on 
the night of Friday, November 22, at which Oswald was brought into the lineup 
in the assembly room at the police department, at which a number of news 
media were present. 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you present that night? 

Captain Jones. No, sir ; I was on the third floor at that time. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Jack Ruby? 

Captain Jones. I have known him. 

Mr. Hubert. Just state how well and under what circumstances. 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir ; I will be glad to do that. And I do want to ask —can 
I say something off the record here? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Hubert. Get back on the record. 

During the off-the-record period, Captain Jones simply explained to me that 
he had omitted something from his comments I'elative to what? 

Captain Jones. Relative to knowing Jack Ruby. I've got to find 

Mr. Hubert. Relative to what document? 

Captain Jones. 5056. Document 5056 ; that would be the first complete para- 
graph on page 3, where it states, "Jones states that he did know Ruby and had 
known him prior to 1952, when he ran the Silver Spur, a nightclub on South 
Central. He stated that prior to 1952, he was a lieutenant covering this district 
and did go into the Silver Spur, at the most, six times looking for white subjects." 

Mr. Hubert. Would you state your comments on that? 

Captain Jones. The comment is that, "Jones stated that he did know Ruby 
and had known him prior to 1952, when he ran the Silver Spur, a nightclub 
on South Ervay." The next sentence should read, "He stated that prior to 1952, 
he was a detective assigned mostly to colored cases, but that occasionally we 
were assigned cases involving white suspects, and on a few occasions did go in 
the Silver Spur during those investigations." 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

Captain Jones. I was asked how many times, and I could not estimate how 
many times. I said, "Not over six times, probably, altogether." 

Mr. Hubert. Let me put it this way to you. Did you know him well enough 
so that you would have recognized him had he walked into a room? 

Captain Jones. That is a question in my mind that I doubt very much that 
I would have. I did recognize him in the basement after someone said — before 
I ever saw who it ever was in custody, that it was Jack Ruby, and when I was 
told that in advance I did recognize him. Otherwise, it is possible that I 
might have recognized him had I been given that opportunity but I did not have 
the opportunity. 

63 



Mr. Hubert. Did you see him, that is to say, Jack Ruby, in your rounds of 
the basement any time, from the shooting of the President until the shooting of 
Oswald? 

Captain Jones. To recognize him as such, I did not see him to recognize him 
then. And after seeing him at the time of the arrest, I did not recall having 
seen him even as a face in the crowd prior to that. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you say that now with the consideration after having 
been told that it was Jack Ruby and recognizing him, you still don't remember 
having seen 

Captain Jones. I did not see that particular man in there, and not having 
recognized him, I don't recall seeing that face, at any time. This is with the 
full knowledge that since this matter I have found that one of my own men 
filed a simple assault case on him about a year ago, but I wasn't aware of that. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you know of any plans that had been made at that time 
for the transportation of Oswald, prior to leaving to go home on Saturday 
night, the 23d of November? 

Captain Jones. That is one of the questions that I am going to have to say 
that things have come up that during my investigation that I headed following 
the shooting of Oswald, by Ruby — that I headed a team of several lieutenants, 
and one detective investigating the security in the basement — and I have some 
knowledge as a result of that investigation, that no one came to me and told 
me about the possible transfer, or — possible transfer, or any plans for a trans- 
fer prior to me going home Saturday night. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you aware that the plan was not to transfer Oswald until 
at least 10 o'clock on Sunday morning? 

Captain Jones. It seems to me as if possibly there was something about that 
in my mind, but I can't tell you where I got it, but there was some talk around 
there. I don't know whether the time was 10 o'clock, or 9 o'clock, and since 
that time I have talked to people that said, "I don't know," but it does seem to 
me that I was under the impression that when I got up Sunday morning that 
if I got down there before 9 o'clock, he possibly would not have been trans- 
ferred by that time, but so help me, I cannot think — I cannot say how that I 
knew that. 

Mr. Hubert. Let me put it to you another way. Were you given any specific 
duty to perform or anything relative to the transfer whenever that would take 
place? 

Captain Jones. You mean prior to that 11 o'clock, when I was sent to the 
basement? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes ; prior to Saturday night. 

Captain Jones. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Prior to leaving on Saturday night 

Captain Jones. In fact, I was told that if I wanted to go on my fishing trip, 
I could go. 

Mr. Hubert. So, then you got back at what time? 

Captain Jones. I would say somewhere roughly around 9 o'clock, couldn't 
have been much after that. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you do anything between 9 and, say, 10 o'clock? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir ; I sure did. 

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what you did. 

Captain Jones. I was answering the telephone, and I can't recall specific 
things. It was just things that come up that needed doing right then. Getting 
calls 

Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you the same question I asked about the other 
period. Were you given any specific duties to do, or specific functions as to 
supervising concerning the transfer of Oswald during this period of 9 to, say, 11 
o'clock, or roughly 11 o'clock, on the 24th? 

Captain Jones. No, sir. , 

Mr. Hubert. Were you simply answering the phone? 

Captain Jones. I came in and started answering the phone, and started doing 
whatever appeared necessary for me to do. 

Mr. Hubert. What then happened next? 

Captain Jones. Well, that went on for almost 2 hours or somewhere near 

64 



that and then at approximately 11 o'clock is when Chief Stevenson came to me, 
and I don't know whether he came in from one of the oflBces. I was in the big 
lobby out front of the chief's office, but I came to the double doors where the 
secretaries have their desks, and he came to me and told me to go down to 
the basement of the city hall, go up the Commerce Street ramp and place 
two officers there to assist an armored truck that was en route to be used in 
the transfer of Oswald. Have those two officers there assist that truck in 
backing down into the basement as far as possible. "I don't know whether it 
will go all the way or not," also to take any available detectives on the third 
floor to the basement and place them where I thought they might be needed. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Did you follow those instructions? 

Captain Jones. I did. 

Mr. HtTBEBT. Can you tell us in what way you did so? 

Captain Jones. All right, sir. I went to the automobile theft bureau, juvenile 
bureau, my own forgery bureau and — burglary and theft bureau, and got any 
detectives available to have them report to me at the jail office, and it seems 
to me, as I say, as if two or three detectives went with me. I couldn't tell 
you how many it was in the elevator going down with me, but — nor who they 
were, but I do know that when we got to the jail office I then asked them to 
remain in one place and I went out the door on the ramp, or on the driveway 
and up the ramp to Commerce Street, called Patrolman Jez and another officer, 
uniformed policeman, then. Relayed Chief Stevenson's instructions not to leave 
there that the truck was en route. 

In coming back down the ramp I encountered Captain Talbert, who is in 
charge of the patrol division, and because Chief Stevenson had sent me down 
there to do that, I informed him of the instructions I had so that he wouldn't 
inadvertently move them, and then I returned to the officers in the basement — 
jail office, and just standing outside there. And from here on in — many times — 
I can tell you most of the things that happened, I am sure I may be a little 
unsure of the time, or sequence of things, for there in a matter of a few minutes 
quite a lot of things were done, but I returned into there and told the officers to 
remain there, that 

Mr. Hubert. When you say that you returned 

Captain Jones. To the jail office on the basement floor. Now, who they were, 
I don't know. I am sure some of it is mentioned in the individual officers' re- 
ports that we have, of the ones that were there that I was talking to and told 
them as far as I knew the armored car was going, that was going to transfer 
him, that was backed up, it was backed up there and we would see the prisoner 
was safely escorted over to that. Meantime, someone, I couldn't tell 

Mr. Hubert. Just 1 minute. Before that, had you been told by Chief Steven- 
son when he instructed you to go down to the Commerce Street ramp and make 
arrangements for the handling of the armored truck 

Captain Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Had you been told what route would be followed by the armored 
truck, or whatever vehicle? 

Captain Jones. I had not been told that. I had heard some discussion. We 
have a large map of downtown, city of Dallas, that sits inside of the chief's 
office where the secretaries sit outside there, and one of the chiefs, I don't 
recall which one it was, was over there talking to someone else about a pro- 
posed route. I don't know what it was. I was not told. 

Mr. HtJBERT. About what time was that? 

Captain Jones. Oh, just prior to my going to the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, just prior to 11 o'clock? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. They were discussing what route to take? 

Captain Jones. Discussing route, and I don't know what arrangements was 
made. 

Mr. Hubert. Let's go back into the basement where you left off at the end 
of the last sequence of questions. What time, roughly, would it have been 
when you had completed the duty of informing the police who were at the 
top of the Commerce Street entrance, and after you had informed Captain 
Talbert, and after you had gotten these three men 

65 



Captain Jones. To the jail oflBce there? 

Mr. Htjbeet. What time was it, about? 

Captain Jones. Well, it would take a minimum, I would say, of 5 minutes, 
to come up that. It would vary a little, and possibly more, depending on how 
fast the elevators came up and so forth. 

Mr. HuBEBT. What did you do next then ? 

Captain Jones. Next thing I did — it was brought to my attention — we don't 
have a chart here so I will have 

Mr. Hubert. Here; I am going to mark it, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1963. 
Exhibit 5057, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones." I am signing my name below 
it and I would like you to sign your name, here. 

Captain Jones. All right, sir. 

Mr. HuBBaiT. And then will you use the exhibit as you see fit. Let me say 
to you that if you do refer to the exhibit please indicate in words where it is 
rather than pointing to it because it will not make sense later on. 

Captain Jones. All right. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Now, you were saying about the basement 

Captain Jones. When I got off the elevator, came out and left the elevator — 
all right, now, someone brought it to my attention that photographers and news 
media were in this part of the jail. 

Mr. Htjbeet. In the jail? 

Captain Jones. Jail oflBce, outside. 

Mr. HxjBB^BT. Outside of the desks? 

Captain Jones. Outside the booking area, outside of the desk part of the jail 
oflBce, and newsmen all out in here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. When you say "here," you are pointing to the jail area? 

Captain Jones. The corridor they have from the driveway from the basement 
jiail office. 

Mr. Hubert. On the east side of the swinging doors? 

Captain Jones. On the east side of the swinging doors ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, what did you do? 

Captain Jones. I did not know the instructions given to the other officers 
down there prior to that. Nothing. So, immediately after seeing them — I 
saw Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson come out the swinging doors into the 
area, and Batchelor, being the highest ranking officer present, I pointed these 
people out to him, and 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, in the jail office? 

Captain Jones. In the jail office — were they supposed to be in there, and 
wouldn't it be better, if we could get those people out of the jail office, that it 
would be easier to watch the prisoner, and so, I don't know the exact words, 
I used, and they walked around and looked around, and then agreed that it 
would be. So, he and I, and at least one other officer, and I don't know who 
he was, but at least one more removed everyone out of the outer part of the 
jail office to just outside the swinging doors coming from the basement of the 
city hall going east. 

Mr. Hubert. In the direction 

Captain Jones. In the direction of the driveway, and after getting them out 
there, not knowing the specific instructions that might have been given I said, 
"Chief Batchelor, would it be possible to have all this media be placed north 
of a line from the east corner of the jail office — all right. To move all the news 
media north of a line formed from the comer of the jail office from the corridor 
to across the ramp leading down from Main Street, to have all reporters north 
of that line, and that east of a line running off from this point across the 
driveway going south down to the exit from the basement parking area." 

Mr. Hubert. All right, I am going to mark, as you have indicated on the 
map, by making a line starting — with the letter "A" on the comer formed 
by the intersection of the jail corridor and the basement ramp moving east to 
a point, "B", which I am marking 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Which is the east side of the ramp, and to another point marked 
"C". 

66 



Captain Jones. Well, now, actually, that line would extend all the way up 
here at that time. I meant to keep them back on those two — and in order 

Mr. Hubert. Am I correct in what your suggestion was that the news media 
should be kept north of the line marked A and B? 

Captain Jones. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. And east of the line which runs "B to C," the point "C"? 

Captain Jones. I didn't spell it out in those details, but that is the general 
idea, yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. "B" being the top of the Commerce Street ramp? 

Captain Jones. For this reason, that we would have only two sides to watch. 
The rest of it would be more or less brick wall, and he agreed to that. The 
officers were stationed previously by other people along these lines, so, I went 
out there with some of these officers and I don't know how many, and we did get 
those people back. 

Mr. Hubert. You got them back? 

Captain Jones. We got them back fairly well at that time. 

Mr. Hubert. Behind the lines? 

Captain Jones. Behind these lines. In fact, there at one time it was com- 
pletely clear. 

Mr. Hubert. That would have been how long before Oswald came down? 

Captain Jones. There again, I couldn't say. It was a matter of a few minutes. 

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell me how many people were in the area that I am 
marking with a pen, "Area A"? 

Captain Jones. I cannot tell you. 

,Mr. Hubert. Which is to say, the area north of the line "A", which you re- 
cently drew? 

Captain Jones. Mr. Hubert, that would be truly a guess on my part along with 
knowledge obtained later and watching these TV films. Unconsciously, I would 
have to use that, for I don't have any idea on it. 

Mr. Hubert. Were they standing shoulder to shoulder across the ramp? 

Captain Jones. It wasn't when we first pushed them back there, it was pos- 
sibly six or eight people, and possibly a few more than that including officers. I 
didn't stop to — told the officers, "Get them back," "get them back." 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I am talking about an area called "B", can you give me 
any comment as to how many people roughly were in there? 

Captain Jones. I couldn't guess. A few minutes later I can tell you there was 
quite a few people there, but 

Mr. Hubert. We'll get to there. Suppose we get to that. Now then, at the 
time Oswald was brought down, can you tell me how many people, roughly, were 
in Area "A" and Area "B"? 

Captain Jones. No, sir ; I find myself with figures there that — that I do not 
know whether they are right or not. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

Captain Jones. What I would want to say, that I did see several people, and 
I was up there personally, and I don't know exactly who they were, but I was 
attempting to push them back at that time. So, we can get to that any minute, 
but as far as giving you a figure or definite number or something, I couldn't do 
it with any degree of accuracy. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir. Do you know of your own knowledge what proce- 
dures were being used for checking people in that whole downstairs or basement 
area, including the ramp and so forth? 

Captain Jones. I know only one instance of — somewhere on the way down 
there that morning, whether it was up on the third floor or whether — I believe 
it was off of the elevator, just coming off of the elevator I was asked for an 
identification. 

iMr. Hubert. You were in civilian clothes? 

Captain Jones. I was in civilian clothes, yes, sir. I was asked, and that is 
the only time. I did not give the instruction. These officers were placed there 
prior to that, on the outside lines, and I don't know of my own knowledge. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, then, proceed with the chronological sequence. 

Captain Jones. The chronological sequence, after getting these people out of 
the jail office and out of the corridors and driveway to these two points of which 

67 



we were speaking, then I was somewhere just south of this point marked "B" 
on the driveway when Chief Stevenson approached me and said, "There has been 
a change in plan. We are going to put two cars on the driveway and use them." 
Now, sometime in between there, and I can't tell you the exact time I am aware 
of a blur of a car going out the wrong way. I didn't see who was in it, and I 
didn't take too much awareness of it. I don't know just when it was. 

Mr. Hubert. When you say, "going the wrong way " 

Captain Jones. I mean it came out of the basement area and headed up toward 
Main Street which ordinarily is the down ramp and you go out the ramp going 
up Commerce Street. There was a car out there, and in light of the investiga- 
tion I know the circumstances now, but at that time I couldn't tell you about 
that one which did go out. Chief Stevenson said — came to me just before or 
after the car pulled out and said — said there was a change in plans, "We are 
going to put two cars in the driveway and transfer him in a car." Almost im- 
mediately some cars started up back in this area [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. When you say "this area," that is the basement? 

Captain Jones. All right, the parking area of the basement, east of the drive- 
way, and I am very sure one car that I saw pull up and go up the Commerce 
Street ramp from a ways, and I think I am aware of a second car pulling up 
behind. Now, the second car was having a little difficulty backing down into 
position to where it would — where it should go, so that when I stepped forward 
and became aware of quite a mass of people, I couldn't tell you how many in this 
area "B". 

Mr. Hubert. And you were standing in the west side of the area? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir ; the west side of area B, but the east side of the ramp. 
I was somewhere in there, and I attempted to push the people back, and I'm 
afraid I may have delayed the driver by pushing these people back, but along 
about that time someone shouts, "Here he comes." 

Mr. Hubert. Would you just make a little circle as to where approximately 
you were? 

Captain Jones. I think — I think — I think I was somewhere right in this area 
here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. Just put a circle. 

Captain Jones. Well, I don't know. That is as close as I can put it. 

Mr. Hubert. You have drawn a circle, and I'm just going to put here, as you 
said, that it was somewhere around in here, around in the circle that you have 
drawn and I am marking that "approximate position of Capt. O. A. Jones 
at the time that Jones heard someone say 'Here he comes,' " is that correct, sir? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, actually, there was an automobile, as you say, backing up 
towards east, right? 

Captain Jones. Well 

Mr. Hubert. But when they begin 

Captain Jones. It would have been backing north attempting to back north. 

Mr. Hubert. Backing north, but with the front of the car facing south? 

Captain Jones. Now then ; from here is something that was a mystery to me 
for 2 weeks 

Mr. Hubert. You didn't answer the question. 

Captain Jones. That's true. In the basement area, onto the ramp, heading 
out towards Commerce, and attempting to back toward north. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you say there was something else? 

Captain Jones. The police vehicle — car is ahead of me a little bit. 

Mr. Hubert. It is what? 

Captain Jones. Ahead of me, backing toward it, and I am probably in the 
way, and when they shout, "Here he comes," and the line up ahead of me — 
up toward the Commerce Street ramp, and I know of some officers. Chief 
Stevenson and Chief Batchelor, uniformed men up at the ramp, but I'm not 
sure about Captain Talbert. I'm sure, I believe he is ahead of me. Quite a few 
officers, however, someone yells, "Here he conies," there is a big furor, so then 
as I turned and looked back into this area "B", there are some people in there 
which — hands out, looking them, completely. I am looking east. 



Mr. Hubert. You are looking away from the- 



Captain Jones. From the approximate point. 

Mr. HuBiaiT. But you are also looking away from the point which Oswald 
exited? 

Captain Jones. That's right. In watching the people, I was aware, in fact, 
in trying to get them out of the way. 

Mr. Hubert. Would it be correct to say that the televisions were to your 
left? 

Captain Jones. I think so. I mean, that is my impression, and I cannot — I 
couldn't swear. I can give you the impression to the best of my knowledge, 
but here is one thing that I know. I am in that area, I think the television 
is to my left. I turned to make sure the people stay out of way. Some of the 
previous instructions — can I go back? 

Mr. HuBBaiT. Yes. 

Captain Jones. Some of the previous instructions that I had given to this 
oflBcer here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. Here? 

Captain Jones. I'm sorry, just outside of the swinging doors leading into 
the basement of the city hall and just after clearing the jail office of the 
reporters, just keep the people out of the area. I told both the officers and 
the newsmen there, "When the prisoner comes down, you will not be allowed 
in this area. You will not be allowed to step forward to take pictures, or 
converse with the prisoner." 

Mr. Hubert. You gave that instruction? 

Captain Jones. I gave this instruction to them. I can't say to this officer, 
or to that officer. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

Captain Jones. Things had changed. First, I was under the impression that 
the armored car would back all the way down. I didn't know whether it 
could get all the way down, may do it at some intermediate point. If it comes 
all the way down there would be a line. That was the — that was where I 
wanted the officer here coming out of the jail office. The door of the vehicle 
that opens 

Mr. HuBiaiT. I say, that was your idea? 

Captain Jones. It was my idea, if the transporting vehicle backs all the way 
to the jaii door. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

Captain Jones. If it comes partially down here and has to stop, which would 
be somewhere around this area here [indicating], the — just past — just at the 
IK)int where the ramp starts to rise there is a beam, I believe, or low point 
in the ceiling there, that if it cannot get to that point these officers in the line 
here can form an L-shaped line around the prisoner, between them and the 
two sides where the news media had been told to stay and form a buffer in 
between to walk up there. Then the change — going to put two cars up there. 
There is no reason why that back car can't get all the way back to the jail 
office. The original plan would be that the line of officers would be from the 
jail door to the vehicle. Then they say, "Here he comes," and I am off up 
here, to the point that I indicated on the map. It is too late to get the people 
out of the way of the car and form the line. I am aware that Oswald is already 
coming because of the furor, so, I was trying to keep everybody out of the 
way and keep the way clear and I heard a shot. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

Captain Jones. And I place that as to why it is my last awareness of — the 
back car is ahead of, towards Commerce Street. The prisoner is coming from 
back here [indicating]. The car is backing like this [indicating]. I am 
looking at 

Mr. Hubert. You were looking at the automobile? 

Captain Jones. At the automobile. They say, "Here he comes." I turned 
and these people back this way 

Mr. Hubert. Looking away from the direction? 

Captain Jones. Into this basement parking area. I heard a shot, and I 

69 



distinctly remember looking over my left shoulder and behind me to the scene 
of the scuffle. 

Mr. Hubert. What did you see? 

Captain Jones. Just mass confusion of people. 

Mr. Hubert. All right ; let me ask you this ; had you at any time seen Ruby 
in the basement? 

Captain Jones. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. At the time of the shooting, did you see him? 

Captain Jones. Not at the moment of the shooting. I was looking out into 
the basement area, parking area. 

Mr. Hubert. After the shooting, did you see him? 

Captain Jones. I did ; after he was in custody and on his feet and just prior 
to them taking him into the jail office. 

Mr. HuBEKT. Did you recognize him then? 

Captain Jones. At that time, after having someone say it was Jack Ruby, 
then I did recognize him as Jack Ruby. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear him say anything? 

Captain Jones. No, sir ; in fact, I wasn't that close to him. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you have anything more to do with Ruby? Did you see 
him after that? 

Captain Jones. Can I continue on the chronological thing there? I don't 
believe I did see him 

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead. 

Captain Jones. It will be just about that same thing that after I turned 
and looking back, and also someone running out to the street, out at the extreme 
edges of the crowd and all, and that is when I hollered, "Block the exits." Or 
"bar the exits," or "don't let anybody out." Or — I couldn't tell you the words 
I used. I shouted over my Shoulder and took a few running steps and shouting 
to the officers, for some of them was running down towards the scene that I 
yelled, "Block the exits, don't let anybody out." The two or three officers 
stopped. I couldn't tell you who they are, and then I turned and went back 
down to the scene or near the scene of the shooting, somebody says, it was 
Jack Ruby. In fact, it was said more than once. I heard the words — and 
they got the man standing up. I can see his head and I do recognize in my 
mind that it is Jack Ruby, but — about to get him in the jail office, shouted to 
that officer that way, whether he heard me or not, I don't know, but this man 
here Lieutenant Swain [indicating] was having a lot of difficulty. He was 
standing between point "B" on the driveway and this circle, approximately. 
Standing near the television cameras, and having difficulty keeping the television 
men from getting down in the driveway. So I stopped there and I assisted 
him in keeping those people back for a few minutes until we can get it cleared 
up. We get that more or less under control. The people are not trying to 
force their way in there, and I go into the jail office and see Oswald lying 
on the floor with a bullet hole in the left side, upper rib cage, it appears to me. 
His shirt has been pulled up. Whether, at that time Ruby was still in the 
jail office or had started upstairs, he — it seems to me possibly he was getting 
on the elevator, but I can't say for sure. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to Ruby at that time? 

Captain Jones. I did not speak to Ruby. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him? 

Captain Jones. There — if that was him getting on the elevator, or if he was 
in there. After that, no, sir. 

Mr. HuBEiRT. Now, did you have anything to do with the clearing of the 
basement area at an earlier time? 

Captain Jones. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you ever told as to what the original route would b'e 
from the police department to the county jail? 

Captain Jones. I was never told by some officer coming to me and saying, 
this is the route. As I said, I heard some of the higher ranking officers talking 
of a possible route, but I was on a long-distance phone call at a desk nearby. 

70 



Mr. Hubert. So, you can say to me now that you really did not know the 
planned route? 

Captain Jones. I was not told, and I do not know for sure what route they 
were going to take. I was aware of talk and some routing being planned. 

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us when you first heard that Ruby was supposed 
to have come down the Main Street ramp? 

Captain Jones. I don't remember ; I don't understand that question, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Let me put it this way ; you have heard since that Ruby claims 
that he came down the Main Street ramp? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when you first heard that? 

Captain Jones. When I first heard that it was probably as a result of me 
being in charge for the Police Department Committee investigating the oper- 
ational security about that transfer, and why it broke down, and that heading 
that committee, I am sure that was passed to me by some of the officers who 
had talked to him following his arrest. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, later, on the date of the 24th, or could it have 
been later than that? 

Captain Jones. If I heard it prior to that, or heard rumors, the first official 
knowledge that I do have would have been even following Thanksgiving Day, 
for that is the time I was called back from the vacation and called from 
vacation to head that investigation, and it was subsequent to that that we had 
our investigation. 

Mr. Hubert. So that if you heard anything about Ruby's version of how 
he got there, it would have been just passed on to you prior to going on your 
vacation? That is to say, you would have heard it from someone 

Captain Jones. I would have heard it — or put out on the radio or newspapers 
or some source like that. I could have read that. 

Mr. Hubert. When did you go on vacation? 

Captain Jones. I left here 

Mr. Hubert. That is Dallas? 

Captain Jones. I left Dallas about 7:30 on Thanksgiving morning and got 
back in town at 8 o'clock that night. Drove to Shreveport, spent 4 or 5 hours 
with my father and ate lunch and came back. They called for me by the time 
I got there. 

Mr. Hubert. And you were not on the special committee to investigate security 
until that time? 

Captain Jones. When I returned, went to Chief Stevenson's house that night. 
He told me what they had in mind. I reported for that the morning following 
Thanksgiving, Friday morning. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, Captain, is there anything else you want to state concerning 
the facts, in your deposition this morning? 

Captain Jones. I can think of no other at this time, Mr. Hubert. I only wish 
there was some definite facts I could give you, and wish I could have been more 
definite in my answers, but I can think of no other right now. We have covered 
the situation pretty thoroughly. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, have you been interviewed by any member of the Com- 
mission, other than myself? 

Captain Jones. No, sir ; I'm sure I haven't. I mean I would remember that. 

Mr. Hubert. I mean, you have been interviewed by me prior to the commence- 
ment of this deposition, isn't that correct? 

Captain Jones. We went over the details briefiy a while ago; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And that was this morning? 

Captain Jones. That was this morning ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, can you tell me whether you observed any inconsistencies 
between the interview that you had with me this morning and your testimony 
in this deposition ? 

Captain Jones. I am not aware of any, sir. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. Have you provided any material information in that interview 
with me this morning which has not been talked about in the record of this 
deposition today? 

71 

731-228 O — 64 — vol. XII 6 



Captain Jones. I don't know of any, sir. 

Mr. HuBEBT. I think that is all, sir. Captain, if you have anything else to 
say 

Captain Jones. I will be happy — if there is anything that I can say that will 
shed some light on the truth, that's what I want, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Is there anything at all that you haven't said to me, or during 
the interview, or during any statements that you may have made to anybody 
which you would like to say now ? 

Captain Jones. I can think of none — I got — I told you the facts as I know 
them. The book that the Commission has, has a copy of — has the conclusions 
that were reached by our Committee, and those ar'e just opinions based on our 
investigation of it and certainly we do have opinion on it but I have tried to 
stay away from my opinion, and — I will answer any questions in the future 
that you or any member of your Commission wants to know. 

Mr. Hubert. Thank you very much. Let me say that if you should think of 
anything that has been omitted please feel free to call upon me or any member 
of the Commission staff to convey that information. 

Once again I thank you personally and on behalf of the Commission. 

Captain Jones. Thank you. 

Mr. Hubert. Just a moment. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. HuBEHiT. Let me say that I am recommencing this deposition about a 
minute after it finished. You are still under the same oath, of course, that you 
were before. 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I think that you did prepare, or it was prepared under your 
supervision, a chart, or diagram that showed the basement area, and by the use 
of circles and identifying code showed the positions of individuals. 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; that was prepared under my direction by an oflScer 
and places people who were not available to our oflBce in this city, where they 
were placed by the statements, or statements of people who were nearby and 
said they were there. That was to the best of our ability to determine where 
they were at the time. 

Mr. Hubert. As I recall it, that was quite a large chart, wasn't it? 

Captain Jones. The original that they made. 

Mr. Hubert. And it showed the positions of people like that by circles in 
which numbers were 

Captain Jones. Were numbered. 

Mr. Hubert. And I think you used a color as well? 

Captain Jones. Color to denote the occupation. 

Mr. Hubert. Whether reserve officers 

Captain Jones. Designated from 

Mr. Hubert. Newspapermen. 

Captain Jones. And those numbers applied to one other, then they applied 
to the number of the page in the book of the ones they took affidavits from. 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say that these circles with the number in it designat- 
ing the position of a particular individual, that same number was used to 
identify his report? 

Captain Jones. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. In your security report? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. But note for the record : The report which Captain Jones is 
referring has been designated as Commission Report No. 81-A. This is a copy 
of that, isn't it? 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. That is it. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. So, that the chart really is an estimation based upon 
the persons involved, what they said themselves, and also as to what other 
people said as to where they were. 

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; we were limited as to the miles and distances of 
contacting some of the witnesses. 

Mr. Hubert. Once again I thank you for appearing. 

72 



TESTIMONY OF LT. JACK REVILL 

The testimony of Lt. Jack Revill was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 31, 1964, 
in the oflBce of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistiint counsel of the 
President's Commission. 

Mr. HUBE31T. This is the deposition of Lt. Jack Revill [spelling] R-e-v-i-1-l-e. 

Lieutenant Re:vill. No. No "e." 

Mr. Hubert. No, "e"? But two "I's." 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. My name is I^eon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff 
of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions 
of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of 
Congress No. 137, in the rules and procedures adopted by the Commission in 
conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been author- 
ized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general 
nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the 
facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent 
violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you. Lieutenant Revill, 
the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the 
death of Oswald and any other facts you may know about the general inquiry. 

Now, Lieutenant Revill, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general 
request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of 
the Commission. And under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a 
3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules also 
provide that a witness may waive that 3-day written notice. Do you wish to 
do so ? Do you wish to waive the 3-day 

Lieutenant Revill. I will waive it, yes. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, let's swear you. 

If you will stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Lieutenant Revill. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. State your name, please. 

Lieutenant Revill. My name is Jack Revill. 

Mr. Hubert. Your age? 

Lieutenant Rea^ill. My age is 34 years of age. 

Mr. Hubert. Your residence? 

Lieutenant Revill. My residence is Dallas, Tex., 5617 Meadowick Lane. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation, sir? 

Lieutenant Revill. I'm employed by the Dallas Police Department, lieuten- 
ant of the police. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been so employed? 

Lieutenant Revill. I have been employed by this police department for a period 
of 13 years. 

Mr. Hubert. How did you start? 

Lieutenant Revill. I was employed and assigned a patrolman. From there 
I was promoted to my present rank of lieutenant. 

Mr. Hubert. When did you receive your present rank? 

Lieutenant Revill. June 26, 1958. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, what are your specific functions or duties or assignments 
within the department? 

Lieutenant Revill. I am presently assigned as section supervisor of criminal 
intelligence, which is a part of the Special Service Bureau. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been in that section? 

Lieutenant Revill. Since February of 1959. 

Mr. Hubert. Who is your immediate superior there? 

Lieutenant Revill. My immediate supervisor is Capt. W. P. Gannaway. 

Mr. Hubert. And then over him? 

Lieutenant Revill. Chief Curry. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you don't work for any other captain or super- 
visor? 

73 



Lieutenant Revill. No. 

Mr. Hubert. You report to the Chief himself, I mean, you don't go through 
Stevenson or Batchelor? 

Lieutenant Revill. Just directly to the Chief. 

Mr. HuBEiET. Now, I would like, you to state briefly, so that we get the full 
story, just what function you have had with respect to the investigation of the 
shooting of Oswald. First let me aslt you : Were you present when Oswald was 
shot? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I was not. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you have anything to do with the transfer of Oswald? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you on duty that day? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; later I was, but not the morning of the shooting. 

Mr. Hubert. Not at the time of the shooting? 

Lieutenant Revill. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, then, go ahead and tell us about just what you did with 
reference to the investigation of this. 

Lieutenant Revill. After Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald I was assigned 
to an investigative committee to determine how and why Jack Ruby gained 
access to the basement of the city hall. This committee was comprised of myself, 
Lt. F. I. Cornwall, Lt. P. G. McCaghren, Lt. C. C. Wallace, Capt. O. A. Jones 
and Inspector Sawyer, and I do not recall his initials, but our function was to 
interview the people present in the basepaent on the morning of the shooting, and 
any other leads that might be developed from these interviews We were to 
follow up on these. 

Mr. Hubert. When did the official committee you have just mentioned come 
into existence and who put it in existence and who gave you your orders? 

Lieutenant Revill. This committee was formed — created at the orders of 
Chief J. E. Curry. The exact date I do not recall. It was in December. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Go ahead. 

Lieutenant Revill. As previously stated, our function was to interview these 
people. 

Mr. Hubert. Had any other interviews of these, people been made prior to 
the commencement of the functions of your committee? 

Lieutenant Revill. Interviews, as such, no. Most of the officers had sub- 
mitted written reports as to their specific duties on the morning of November 24, 
1963. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know when that was done? 

Lieutenant Revill. I presume that it was done on the date of the shooting 
and immediately thereafter. 

Mr. Hubert. Isn't it a fact, as I recall it, that the individual reports made 
by every officer who was in the ba.sement more or less followed a form in the 
sense that they were submitted a list of questions, at least they had to answer 
that much, and they could, perhaps, go further if they wanted to? 

Lieutenant Revill. I believe the form letter you make reference to was given 
to the police reserve officers. These are the people that I devoted my efforts 
toward, the police reserve, but Lieutenant Cornwall and I, our duty was to 
interview these reserve policemen. 

Lieutenant McCaghren, O. A. Jones and Wallace interviewed the sworn 
officers. 

Mr. Hubert. By the way, where is Cornwall now? 

Lieutenant Revill. He is in Louisville, Ky., at the Southern Police Institute. 
He left a week ago. 

Mr. Hubert. And I understand that he is going to be there 

Lieutenant Revill. 3 months. 

Mr. Hubert. 3 months? 

Lieutenant Revill. Now, Lieutenant Cornwall and I were together through- 
out the existence of this committee. 

Mr. Hubert. Are you familiar with the document entitled, "Investigation of 
the Operation and Security Involve;d on the Transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald, 
on November 24, 1963," which I now show you? 

Lieutetnant Revill. Yes, sir; I am. 

74 



Mr. Hubert. Let the record show that I am showing Lieutenant Revill, a 
document which has been identified as Commission's Report 81-A. Are you 
familiar with the letter of transmittal of this report dated December 16th, 1963, 
which is at the first part of the rei>ort, and runs for 11 pages, signed by Sawyer, 
Westbrook, and Jones? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; I am. 

Mr. Hubert. I believe that this report, in its very last paragraph, says that 
you have read it and concur? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Some of the reports in there are actually signed by you? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; that's correct. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know an oflBcer, a reserve oflScer by the name of Mayo? 

Lieutenant Revill. Mayo? 

Mr. Hubert. Lamar Mayo. I think his civilian employment is in — he is an 
accountant or chief of credit department of Sears, Roebuck here. 

Lieutenant Revill. This is R. L. Mayo? 

Mr. Hubert. It could be R. L. Mayo. 

Lieutenant Revill. I looked here and I found a copy of an interview of a 
reserve officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, signed by myself and Lieutenant Cornwall. 

Mr. Hubert. Lamar W.? 

Lieutenant Revill. We do have an L. W. Mayo. It is possible that we made 
an error on this up here, the girl 

Mr. Hubert. It is L. W. Mayo, I think. 

Lieutenant Revill. It will be the same. I was looking at his report, and 
what we had put in our report about his position or duty assignment and what 
happened here, they 

Mr. Hubert. When you say "here," you are talking about 

Lieutenant Revill. In the report. It is page 70. 

Mr. Hubert. Page 70 of Commission's Document 81-A. 

Lieutenant Revill. What happened, the secretary in typing the report put 
the wrong initial. She placed R. L. Mayo, and it should read L. W. Mayo. 

Mr. Hubert. I noticed that you are talking about the part of the letter which 
.starts off "Re: interview of Reserve Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, 826," that being 
a heading on the letter of December 3, 1963, but the next document also num- 
bered page 70, in Commission's Document 81-A, shows that the initial report 
dated November 26, addressed to Chief Curry is signed, "L. W. Mayo," and 
it is your thought — that it is an error in the first document which is entitled, 
"Interview of Reserve Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo," and it should have been, "L. W. 
Mayo.?" 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. It is your opinion that that is the same person? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; this is my opinion. 

Mr. Hubert. I understand that Sergeant Mayo, when he was interviewed by 
you stated that he had been approached by some individual who was either 
a minister or posing to be a minister in any case, who was trying to get into 
the jail through the Commerce Street entrance on November 24, prior to the 
shooting, stating that he wanted to see Oswald, and that you had told him, 
well, that wasn't pertinent to your inquiry, and all I want to do is ask you 
what — ^if it is true, and just what comment do you have to make on it? 

Lieutenant Revill. I don't recall making that, because it would have been 
pertinent to my inquiry, because in the reports I make reference to an individual 
who was on the street trying to get in who was wearing a Whitehouse — a 
streamer with the words, "Whitehouse Press." This, to me, was pertinent, 
and this minister — of course, the minister wanted to see Oswald prior to the 
shooting. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. In other words, your statement is that you do not recol- 
lect that Mayo made such a statement to you? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; he might have made such a statement, but 

Mr. Hubert. If he did, your thought would be you would have put it in? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; because to me it would have been pertinent. 
Anything. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall his statement to you. Mayo to you, that after the 

75 



shooting when Mayo was stationed in the Main Street ramp that there was 
a man who came to Mayo, I think, identified himself as Ruby's roommate, and 
was trying to get in to see Ruby, that being after the shooting. Do you recall 
that Mayo reported that during the course of the interview? 

Lieutenant Revill. It seems like I do recall Mayo saying something like that, 
and I believe he referred this man to Lieutenant Gilmore of the Special Service 
Bureau. I believe he told me that, but I don't see it here and I don't know 
why we omitted that, but I think we — I do recall him making such a statement. 
George Senator, I believe he would have been the individual. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. He described him as having a slight limp, too, I think he 
said. 

Lieutenant REyiLL. This, I don't know. 

Mr. Hubert. But, you do not recall right now why it was not made a part 
of the interview? 

Lieutenant Revill. Just an oversight on my part. It should have been listed 
here. 

Mr. Hubert. There is one other thing that Mayo states that he told you, which 
apparently is not in the report, that is about a man and a woman who had 
been hanging around the Main Street entrance apparently after the shooting. 
Apparently they were tourists from Springfield, 111., and they wanted to take 
some pictures and stated that to you that 

Lieutenant Revill. Xo, sir ; he did not state this to me. 

Mr. HuBEHiT. As to that episode, then, you do not recall that that was stated 
to you? 

Lieutenant Revill. I would say that he did not relate this to me. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, as I see the three episodes then, as to the first one r^ard- 
ing the minister, your thought is that he may have stated to you, but you do not 
remember? 

Lieutenant Revill. I don't recall. 

Mr. Hubert. Nor do you recall why he omitted it from your report? 

Lieutenant Revill. This; might have happened. It was subsequent to this 
I found a preacher who wanted to talk to Oswald, and he went to Chief 
Batchelor's office, and 

Mr. Hubert. When subsequent to what? 

Lieutennat Revill. Subsequent to the shooting. 

Mr. Hubert. Oh, I see. 

Lieutenant Revill. No, prior to the shooting, and subsequently — he was prob- 
ably talking to — let's see, he arrived at city hall at 9 :30. This preacher's name 
is Ray Rushing. He is an evangelist. Radio Evangelist. 

Mr. Hubert. And that was reported and the man was interviewed? 

Lieutenant Revill. It was not reported because I myself found this man. 

Mr. Hubert. But 

Lieutenant Revill. There is no report on it, because it is in — it had nothing 
to do with the shooting. He had gone to Sheriff Decker's office, and Decker 
referred him to the city thinking that Oswald had not been transferred, so, he 
came to the city hall and went to the third floor, and — by the way, he rode up 
on the elevator with Jack Ruby, now 

Mr. Hubert. This Rushing? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Rode to the third floor 

Lieutenant Revill. Now, he says this. 

Mr. Hubert. Oh, he says this. 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, for the past 7 weeks I have been assigned to the 
district attorney's office, the prosecution of Ruby, running down leads and 
interviewing witnesses and this preacher was one of the people that we located, 
and he related this story to me, that he rode up on the elevator with Jack Ruby 
on the morning of November 24. Mr. Wade did not use this man. He didn't 
need the testimony, because he had placed Ruby there the morning of the 
shooting. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words. Rushing says that he rode up with Ruby on 
the morning of the 24th, prior to the shooting? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir. 

T6 



Mr. Hubert. What was his name? 

Lieutenant Revill. Ray Rushing. 

Mr. Hubert. You don't know how we could reach him? 

Lieutenant Revill. No ; he lives in Richardson, Tex. — correction, please — 
Piano, Tex. 

Mr. Hubert. How do you spell that? 

Lieutenant Revill. P-1-a-n-o, north of Richardson, and at this time he does not 
have a phone. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you make a report on the interview with him? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I did not. This was an interview conducted by 
the — at the district attorney's office in the presence of Assistant District Attor- 
ney Alexander. 

Mr. Hubert. Did Rushing say what time that was? 

Lieutenant Revill. 9 :30. He was sure of the time, because he had let his 
wife and family out at the First Baptist Church, and traveled directly to the 
city hall. 

Mr. Hubert. Was he sure it was Sunday the 24th? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes. sir ; he had gone there to speak to Oswald. 

Mr. Hubert. How did he recognize Ruby? Did he say? 

Lieutenant Revill. He said he recognized him from the newspaper article 
that appeared that day, and later days. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he say whether he had any conversation with him? 

Lieutenant Revill. He talked about the weather. I asked him. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he say whether he was — whether he saw Ruby there 
afterwards? 

Lieutenant Revill. He said he turned to the right and — went up to the third 
floor and after arriving on the third floor, he turned to the right and went to 
the administrative office and talked to Chief Assistant Batchelor. 

Mr. Hubert. But, anyhow, after you interviewed this man Rushing, you turned 
over the information concerning your interview to Assistant District Attorney 
Alexander? 

Lieutenant Revill. What I did is, I interviewed Mr. Rushing one night and 
asked him if he could come to the district attorney's office and relate this to Mr. 
Wade. Possibility that the district attorney might use him as a witness, 
and Alexander was of the opinion that the man might be mistaken. That he 
saw this as a means of getting publicity. Of course, I disagree with that think- 
ing. I think that the man is truthful in that he is reporting what he thinks he 
saw. 

Mr. Hubert. When you interviewed him did he give you what you considered 
a fairly accurate description of Ruby? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes. Of course, so many photographs had appeared in 
the newspapers and it would be easy for someone to 

Mr. Hubert. Where did you interview him? 

Lieutenant Revill. At the district attorney's office. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you a speciflc address in Piano? 

Lieutenant Revill. It is out in the country. It is a box number. I can't 

Mr. Hubert. What is he? A Baptist minister? 

Lieutenant Revill. He is, yes ; I guess he would be. He attends the First 
Baptist Church. He is one of these Evangelist — that his calling is to dry up 
the liquor industry, throughout the nation, so they tell me. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he state to you what his purpose was in seeing Oswald? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, he felt that Oswald needed spiritual guidance at 
that time. He was in trouble and he felt like he could possibly help him. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he say whether he got to see Oswald? 

Lieutenant Revtll. He did not get to see him. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he say how he got into this building? 

Lieutenant Revill. He walked into the building. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any difficulty getting in? 

Lieutenant Revill. Not at that time, no. 

Mr. HuBEiRT. Did he state whether he was stopi)ed and asked for identification 
by anyone? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; I don't believe he was. At that time, of course, 

77 



I don't know for sure — I don't know that they were — had the bnildiiiK secured. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, as to the second thing that Mayo told you. To wit, about 
Ruby's roommate who may or may not be Senator, you do recall that he said 
that, but you don't know why it was left out of the— 

Lieutenant Revill. It was an oversight. It seems as though I do recall him 
telling me something about that, and that he referred this man to Lieutenant 
Gilmore, who was assigned to the special service section. 

Mr. Hubert. The third thing, that man and wife from Springfield, 111., you 
have no recollection of that? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; no recollection whatsoever. 

Mr. HuBiniT. Do you recall interviewing Pat Dean? 

Lieutenant Revill. Sergeant Dean? No. sir; I did not interview Sergeant 
Dean. 

Mr. Hubert. Or Archer? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; these interviews were conducted by Lieutenant 
McCaghren and Wallace. Now, Dean, being a uniformed officer, he might have 
been interviewed by Captain Westbrook. 

Mr. HuBHntT. Your function was to find out how Ruby got into the 

Lieutenant Rbjvill. Basement. This basement ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. When did you first learn of Ruby's version that he came In 
the Main Street entrance? 

Lieutenant Revill. When I first learned it? I read it in the newspai)er. 

Mr. Hubert. You didn't know it on the 24th? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Of course, actually, you hadn't been assigned the .iob 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; no, sir. What happened, my people were — the 
people, the detectives assigned to my unit and myself were assigned to the 
Trade Mart, where Mr. Kennedy was to speak. Upon hearing of the shooting, 
three of us, or four of us, went to the Texas School Book Depository and 
started a systematical search and there were many, many officers present at 
that time. I made a report to Chief Lumpkin naming all of the officers that 
I could recall being there. This was on a Friday. The following Saturday, 
the next day, we were to locate witnesses. People who were employed at the 
School Book Depository, get them and bring them to Captain Fritz' office. 
This took all day. Saturday night we terminated and went home approximately 
8 o'clock. The next morning none of us were assigned to duty. Now, by that 
I mean the intelligence unit. I was at home and I saw the shooting on television 
and from there I got a phone call to report to Mayor Cabell's home, because 
there had been a threat on his life. I went to Washington with Mr. Cabell that 
night and got back the next day. 

Mr. Hubert. You haven't, then, spoken to Dean at all about how Ruby got 
into the basement or how Ruby, says he got into the basement? 

Lieutenant Revill. I am sure I have discussed it with him, but as far as a 
formal interview ; no. 

Mr. Hubert. But, in any case, your first knowledge didn't come from any 
particular individual, but from the newspaper? 

Lieutenant Retvill. Newspaper. 

Mr. Hltbert. In your discussion with Dean, do you recall whether he stated 
to you how he found out ahout Ruby's alleged entry through the Main Street 
ramp? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know the reserve officer by the name of Holly? 

Lieutenant Revel. Holly? Yes, sir ; I talked to Mr. Holly. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall the nature of the conversation? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; I do. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you tell us about it, please? 

Lieutenant Revill. If I may find the report. 

Mr. Hubert. There is an index there. 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes ; and they are filed alphabetically. Ordinarily I can 
find it probably easier this way. Holly, yes. Holly was interviewed and he 
stated that he had been assigned to a traffic corner and after the shooting 
occurred he was reassigned to Parkland Hospital, and that while there some 

78 



unknown police reservist told him that he had observed, or admitted Ruby into 
the basement of the city hall, and that Ruby had presented press credentials. 

Mr. Hubert. Well 

Lieutenant Revill. Well, what we did, we have photographs of all of the police 
reserve, and Holly could not identify anyone as being this oflBcer, or reserve 
oflScer. 

Mr. HuBBiRT. Where did this take place, that is to say, where was Holly shown 
these pictures? 

Lieutenant Revill. In the city hall, in the special services bureau. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you say that when Holly was interviewed he was interviewed 
by Captain Solomon? 

Lieutenant Revill. Well, Holly was interviewed by Captain Solomon, and both 
Lieutenant Cornwall and I. 

Mr. Hubert. All at once? 

Lieutenant Revill. No ; see what happened. Holly came to us with his story. 
Well, we jumped on it because there might be something to it, so I called Captain 
Solomon, who has access to all of the records and photographs of the reserve 
oflBcers, and he brought them to the special services bureau in the city hall. 
Holly was unable to identify this officer. We talked to Captain Arnett, who is a 
reserve captain, and both Solomon and Arnett were of the opinion that Holly 
might be fabricating this thing. 

Mr. Hubert. Now ; what did Holly say 

Lieutenant Revill. Holly 

Mr. Hubert. That this reserve officer told him? 

Lieutenant Revill. That he had seen Ruby in the basement of the city hall, 
and that Ruby had presented press credentials to someone in the basement of the 
city hall. We were never able to locate this reserve officer. 

Mr. Hubeht. Did Holly tell you that a reserve officer, possibly the same one, 
possibly another, had told him that he had seen Ruby coming down the ramp. 
Main Street ramp, and just about a minute before the shooting? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; Holly did not say that to me. I found a reserve 
officer who was present in the basement of the city hall who saw some individual 
coming down the ramp, the Main Street ramp. 

He could not identify this person as being Ruby. As you said, approximately 
a minute or minute and a half after the shooting — I mean, prior to the shooting. 
Have you got a 

Mr. Hubert. I don't want to suggest anything to you, but to assist you, tell 
me if you don't recognize the name. Officer Newman? 

Lieutenant Revill. I believe that it is Newman. I can show you. You — he 
was assigned 

Mr. Hubert. Did you interview Newman? 

Lieutenant Reivill. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Hubert. Newman said that he had not recognized Jack Ruby? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes ; he did not recognize the man coming down the ramp, 
and the distance involved, I can readily see why he could not identify him. 

Mr. Hubert. Did Newman mention to you in your interview that as a matter 
of fact, there were two people he saw in the basement area. One, a man coming 
down the ramp about a minute before the shooting, and another person who 
jumped the rail down there from the parking area into the ramp on the Main 
Street side, but that he could not identify either? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And that, as to the man jumping the rail he didn't know whether 
it was before the shooting or after. 

Lieutenant Revill. The man that he is making reference to jumping over the 
rail was an electrician, and this was prior to the shooting. 

Mr. Hubert. Was this Chabot? [Spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t? 

Lieutenant Revill. Tommy Chabot, I believe he is a mechanic. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he, Newman, identify him as such? 

Lieutenant Revill. Newman did not identify him as such, nor did he identify 
the man running down the ramp. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, I can understand then that when he saw the man running 

79 



down the ramp he did not know who that was, but did he tell you later he 
identified that man as being Ruby by comparing him to the pictures? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; he did not. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Now, when Holly was asked to pick out the reserve oflScer who 
had told him what you said he did in the hospital, was Captain Solomon present? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes ; Solomon was present and had brought these photo- 
graphs to special services bureau, and he was unable to identify any of these 
people. 

Mr. Hubert. He didn't pick out any picture at all? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. You know, of your own knowledge, whether or not Solomon had 
another interview with this man? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever heard that Holly actually did pick out a picture 
in an interview with Solomon and state that he thought that was the reserve 
officer who had spoken to him. Now, apparently that didn't happen when you 
were present? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I don't recall this happening in my presence. I 
do recall, I believe, Holly thinking that a specific officer was the individual that — 
we interviewed this officer and he was not the one, and I couldn't tell you his 
name, because we talked to so many of them. 

Mr. Hubert. Then Holly did say that he thought that this might be the in- 
dividual, and he picked out then a particular picture? 

Lieutenant Revill. As I recall, he picked out a picture, and as it turned out, 
the man that he picked out wasn't even present at the basement of the city hall. 
He had been fishing, was on a fishing trip, and I talked to this reserve officer, I 
couldn't tell you his name. There were two of them that came from Arlington 
directly to the hospital. 

Mr. Hubert. But, in any case, it wasn't Newman? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; he was not. 

Mr. Hubert. Newman is a reserve officer? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. So, the picture Holly picked out as being possibly the man who 
told him about seeing someone coming through with a pass or something like 
that sort was not Newman? 

Lieutenant Revill. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. That reserve officer was interviewed? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; he was interviewed and the report is in here, if I 
could find it. 

Mr. Hubert. And your recollection of the interview was that he wasn't even 
in the place at all? 

Lieutenant Revill. He had been fishing. 

Mr. Hubebt. You have no recollection at all of Holly picking out Newman's 
picture? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; he did not pick out Newman's picture. 

Mr. HuBjaiT. That is to say, in your 

Lieutenant Revill. In my presence. 

Mr. Hubert. Nor, have you heard that he picked out Newman's picture when 
you were not there? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; I have not heard this. 

Mr. Hubert. I think the report indicates that you interviewed Ruby? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; on two occasions. 

Mr. Hubert. What was the first one? 

Lieutenant Revill. The first occasion, the date would have been on the Sunday 
following the shooting. 

Mr. Hubert. When? One week later? 

Lieutenant Revill. One week later, yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I can show you a calendar of 

Lieutenant Revill. I can give you the date. 

Mr. Hubert. Can you? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir. 

80 



Mr. Hubert. Would you do so? 

Lieutenant Reviix. Would have been on December the 1st in the county jail. 
Present at that interview was Lieutenant Cornwall, a jailer, whose name I do 
not recall. This man was present at both interviews, at Mr. Decker's request. 

Mr. Hubert. The jailer was? 

Lieutenant Revill. The jailer; yes, sir. And this proposed interview took 
place just outside the cell where Ruby was confined in, I believe it would be the 
chief jailer's office. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you tell us about what happened? 

Lieutenant Revlll. Yes, sir; Lieutenant Cornwall and I, after interviewing 
all these people, trying to determine how Ruby got into the basement, decided 
that the best thing was to talk to Ruby himself, so, we finally got clearance to 
go talk to him andi we did, and 

Mr. Hubert. Now, by that time you had already heard from the press that he 
had said that he had come through the Main Street ramp? 

Lieutenant Revtll. Something to the effect that, "You may not believe me, 
but I walked down the ramp." Anyway at the interview, Ruby was there with 
Cornwall and I, and this unknown jailer, and he refused to disclose how he 
gained access into the basement stating that this is a part of his defense, so, 
we then had Sheriff Decker call Tom Howard, who was representing Ruby at 
that time as a legal counsel. Mr. Howard came to the jail and was present 
throughout the interview. Ruby was very precise as to his activities on Friday, 
the date of the shooting of President Kennedy. He refused to discuss with us 
any of his activities on Saturday, November 23 or November 24, the day of the 
shooting. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any reason? 

Lieutenant Revill. This was part of his defense, so he stated. The interview 
approximately took 45 minutes. It was a lot of 

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask him specifically whether the story in the press, that 
he had come through the Main Street entrance, was correct or not correct? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; I asked him this, and he refused to discuss it. He 
said that he did not want to get anyone in trouble. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you pursue that? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes ; I did. I was assigned to this committee to find out 
what happened, and I really wasn't concerned who we got in trouble, because 
if someone was wrong, then they suffer the consequences and I asked him about 
officers by name who were present in the basement, if they had seen him or 
talked to him, and he wouldn't discuss it. Knowing Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby is the 
•type of individual that can't be anywhere for a period of time without talking to 
someone. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention to him specifically Roy Vaughn's name? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; the officer 

Mr. Hubert. At the Main Street exit? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. Hubert. He made no comment? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; he wouldn't discuss this. I asked him about De- 
tective Harrison. The films showed that Ruby was standing at Harrison's 
shoulder. 

Mr. Hubert. What did he say about that? 

Lieutenant Revill. He became very upset. 

Mr. Hubert. Did — describe how he was upset? 

Lieutenant Revill. This is when he said — well, he got real angry at me and 
cussed me and told me 

Mr. Hubert. Ruby did? 

Lieutenant Revill. Oh, yes ; told me I was a hatchet man and trying to get the 
man's job. 

Mr. Hubert. When he said you were trying to get the man's job, that is 
Harrison's job? 

Lieutenant Revill. He meant Harrison's job, so, what I did, was later got it 
approved to put Harrison on the polygraph to determine if he had seen Ruby 
prior to the shooting and if he had talked to Ruby. Well, the polygraph exam- 
ination showed that Harrison had no knowledge of Ruby being present. 

81 



Mr. HUBE31T. Did you interview Harrison, too? 

Lieutenant RevIll. Yes ; I did. Showed him the film. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you sort of put him through any cross examination? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your opinion of his veracity? Do you think he is 
telling the truth? 

Lieutenant Revill. If you believe a polygraph examination ; he is. 

Mr. Hubert. I was interested in your impression. 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; and if this is being recorded, then I'd rather 
not state an opinion as to his truth and veracity. 

Mr. Hubert. I understand. Did you mention on that first occasion any other 
names to Ruby? I think you have mentioned already, Vaughn and 

Lieutenant Revill. I mentioned the oflScers who were in the positions to have 
seen Ruby. 

Mr. Hubb:rt. Did you mention to him the name of Daniels, ex-police oflBcer? 

Lieutenant Revill. I may have. I might have asked him if he knew Daniels. 

Mr. Hubert. But, in any case, that is all of your questions. He refused to 
discuss and at this time he — his lawyer wasn't present? 

Lieutenant Revill. On the second interview, which would have occurred on 
December the 

Mr. Hubert. Before you leave that, I want to get a little bit more informa- 
tion concerning this, I think you said, "Fit of anger," when he cursed you and 
told you you were a hatchet man. 

Lieutenant Revill. What upset him 

Mr. Hubert. Did he say any other things? 

Lieutenant Revill. What upset him was that I was involved in this thing. 
When I walked in he said something to the effect, "Well, the Intelligence people 
are involved in it now. They think I am a Communist." I don't know what 
gave him that idea, but I have known Jack Ruby since 1953. I have never been 
a friend with him. I knew him enough to talk to him. Lieutenant Cornwall 
took the position of being his friend, and I was the foe, and that is the way we 
conducted our interview. We were unable to get any information from him. 

Mr. Hubert. But the mention of Harrison, apparently is the thing that 
set 

Lieutenant Revill. Set him off, and I have never been satisfied, personally, 
with Harrison's statement. Of course, this is my personal opinion. 

Mr. Hubert. I think that kind of answers the other question. 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes ; it does. They were reluctant — I say, "They," the 
other members of the committee were reluctant to have him submitted to a 
polygraph examination, but I thought that this was one way of determining 
if he was truthful or not. 

Mr. Hubert. It was as a result of your insistence that he was put under 
one? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, perhaps we can go to the second interview. On what 
date was that? 

Lieutenant Revill. This would have occurred on the 3d of December. 

Mr. Hubert. Tuesday? 

Lieutenant Revill. On a Tuesday, yes, sir. The afternoon of December 3. 
What we had been attempting to do was to put Jack Ruby on a polygraph 
machine, and his lawyer, Tom Howard, had been approached during the first 
interview as to doing this. He stated that there were other lawyers coming 
into the case and that he would have to have their permission before agreeing 
to let Jack take this examination. 

On Monday we communicated with Tom by telephone and he kept hedging 
with us, and telling us he had not heard from the other lawyers. By "Tom," 
I mean Tom Howard, the lawyer. On Tuesday, we discussed it again with him 
and he stated that he was still trying to work this thing out. So, Cornwall 
and I again decided — that we would go directly to Jack Ruby. He was the 
person involved, and we would give him the opportunity to submit to the 
examination, if he wanted to, fine. If he doesn't want to then it's also fine. 

82 



So, we went to Jack on the 2d — on the 3d of December and gave him the 
opportunity to take the polygraph. 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, you asked him? 

Lieutenant Revill. Asked him, yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Was his lawyer present then? 

Lieutenant Revill. Not in the beginning. We later called Tom Howard 
to the interview so that he could be present, and they refused to have Jack 
submitted. 

Mr. Hubert. At first when you asked Jack about going on the polygraph 
machine prior to Tom Howard's being present, what did he say? 

Lieutenant Revill. He said — during the second interview he said that his 
lawyer would have to 

Mr. Hubert. All right, then his lawyer came and 

Lieutenant Revill. They declined. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk about the basement? 

Lieutenant Revill. Tried to. 

Mr. Hubert. What was the result of that? 

Lieutenant Revill. And again, this was part of their defense, and— 

Mr. Hubert. Did he show any anger at you then? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes ; I think it was a carryover from the first interview, 
but this was a strategy that we used. Let him be angry with me, thinking 
maybe that he might tell us something, but he never did. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention Harrison's name on the second interview? 

Lieutenant Revill. I possibly did, but at this time he was more composed, 
and there was no — I don't recall any outbursts. 

Mr. Hubert. I gather that the second interview was not fruitful, in that 
nothing 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. No information was gathered? 

Lieutenant Revill. Neither interview was fruitful, other than from his 
outburst. It led me to believe that possibly he had talked to some oflScer, or 
had been seen by some ofllicer prior to the shooting, but I was never able to 
confirm this. 

Mr. Hubert. At the time you saw Ruby, I take it you had not interviewed 
this man, Ray Rushing? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And didn't know anything about it? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. By the way, how did you find out about it? 

Lieutenant Revill. He called me. 

Mr. Hubert. Ray Rushing called you? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes ; I had assisted him, oh, approximately a year ago 
on a problem he was having with one of his preachers. He has got several 
preachers in his employment, and it was — involved a theft, and I was able to 
assist him, and he called me. 

Mr. Hubert. What date, about? 

Lieutenant Revill. When he called me? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Lieutenant Revill. It was during the trial. During the picking of the 
jurors. The specific date, I do not recall. 

Mr. Hubert. Anyhow, he came in and you interviewed him and made a verbal 
report to Alexander. 

Lieutenant Revill. Oh, Alexander was present at the interview. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether the result of that interview was passed 
to the FBI or to any Government agencies? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; it was not. 

Mr. Hubert. Nor is there a written report? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; no written report. Rushing was reluctant to 
take the stand. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he say why? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, he did. Because of his fight with the liquor industry 
they would use this to fight him with. Any publicity they might get of a 

83 



derogatory nature would hurt him. We tried to emphasize the point that this 
would not be derogatory publicity. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you point out to him that the position was somewhat in- 
consistent with the fact that he was a volunteer? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. What did he say? 

Lieutenant Revill. He decided he would testify if his testimony was needed. 

Mr. HuBiaiT. What was his statement as to his original motivation for re- 
porting this matter, that is to say, that he had seen Ruby? 

Lieutenant Revill. I don't believe he ever said what motivated him to report 
this incident. 

Mr. Hubert. Was he ever asked, that you know of, why he had delayed so 
long? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; I asked him that myself. 

Mr. Hubert. What did he say? 

Lieutenant Revill. Well, he used the same story, that he did not want to 
become involved in this thing because of his fight or his crusade to dry up 
the liquor industry. 

Mr. Hubert. But, how did he then explain the fact that he had volunteered? 

Lieutenant Revill. He didn't explain it. Now, this is an assumption on my 
part. I believe this is why Mr. Alexander was reluctant to use him, because Mr. 
Rushing is the type that there is a Communist under each tree or each rock. 

Mr. Hubert. How old a man is Rushing? 

Lieutenant Revill. Late forty's, or early fifty's. 

Mr. Hubert. Has he been in the Dallas area long? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; he had just recently moved to Dallas from South 
Dakota. He tells me he is a personal friend of Senator Mundt and the Grovemor 
of South Dakota and other influential people, which may or may not be true. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you check to see whether he actually does have a church? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; he is on the radio throughout the Nation. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, you showed me prior to the commencement of this deposi- 
tion, a large folder which you identified as — which is identified from the title 
page of the jacket cover "File No. INT — " 

Lieutenant Re:vill. That's intelligence. 

Mr. Hubert. "Intelligence 25 — 1 through INT — intelligence 25 — subject Jack 
Ruby, DPD," which, I believe means Dallas Police Department. "36398," which 
is the jacket, I suppose, and folder of the special services bureau? 

Lieutenant Revill. Well, yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And you also advise me that most of this information, or most 
of this folder, all except actually the first five pages are reports that have been 
built up after the shooting? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; this is correct. 

Mr. Hubert. You state to me also, I think, that this jacket has been made 
available to the Secret Service? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did they make copies of it? Do you know? 

Lieutenant Revill. They made copies of much of this information. 

Mr. HuBEiRT. You dealt with Mr. Sorrels? 

Lieutenant Reivill. Not directly with Mr. Sorrels himself. Some of his agents. 
If I might use that, I might be able to explain it more fully. If it is necessary 
for the record 

Mr. Hubert. Well, 1 was considering making it a part of the record, but I 
don't want, obviously, to take it away from you and I don't have authority at 
the present time to subpena it. 

Lieutenant Retvill. I will make you copies of anything you want. 

Mr. Hubert. That is what I wanted to get at. If copies have been made 
already and turned over to the Secret Service, that would be unnecessary. 

Lieutenant Revill. For example, here was toll calls, telephone long-distance 
calls placed from the telephone at the Carousel at 1312i/^ Commerce. The Ruby 
residence, at 223 South Ewing, and also the Vegas Club at 3508 Oak Lawn, and 
also his sister's residence, Eva Grant's. 

84 



Mr. Hubert. As of what date? 

Lieutenant Revill. These go back to September 24, 1963, through — correction 
on that. Some of them go back to May of 1963. 

Mr. HuBEiBT. Well, let's deal with it this way, suppose I check to see how 
much of this the Secret Service, or the FBI has? 

Lieutenant Revill. The FBI has this, because I gave it to them personally. 

Mr. HxjBERT. The whole thing? 

Lieutenant Rejvill. Of this particular 

Mr. Hubert. Analyses of phone calls? 

Lieutenant Revill. The phone calls. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, dealing with the whole report, supi)ose we do it this way, 
if we find that there is not, in possession of one of the Federal agencies, the 
entire record, I may ask you at a later time to make it available for photostating, 
or if you could do it 

Lieutenant Re:vill. We can do it. Anything we can do. 

Mr. Hubert. And then what we would do is that you could execute an aflBdavit 
instead of having to come and make a deposition to the effect that the attached 
report is true, is a true and correct copy of the originals. I think that is jKtssibly 
the best way. 

Lieutenant Revill. Any way that it is the easiest for you. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, do you have any other things that you would like to 
say? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; I can't think of a thing. 

Mr. HtJBERT. All right, now 

Lieutenant Revill. Wish there was something I could do to shed some light 
on it. 

Mr. HuBBXT. Was it a part of your function to check out all rumors concern- 
ing connections between Ruby and Oswald? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; it was. 

Mr. Hubert. Or between Ruby and other groups from the left, right, and 
middle of the road, or whatnot? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes ; this was our function. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you, in fact, check out those that came to your attention? 

Lieutenant Revill. All that came to our attention, yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Is there a special rei)ort on that checkout? 

Lieutenant Re^^ill. There are many reports. Each lead that came in as a 
possible connection, investigation was conducted and a report submitted con- 
cerning that specific rumor. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, every rumor was investigated and an individual 
report made on it, but they are not collected together anyplace? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir ; no synopsis. 

Mr. Hubert. They are not part of this document 81-A? The investigation 
that you identified earlier? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you think there are copies of these various reports that 
could be made available to us? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir ; I can make them available to you. 

Mr. Hubert. I woiild appreciate it if you would, because if you have a lot of 
that checkout work that would be helpful. How much of a job would it be to 
photostat all of those things? Did you turn them over to the FBI? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Or any other Federal agent? 

Lieutenant Revill. Anything that they wanted we gave to them. 

Mr. Hubert. I understand that, but I mean, this mass of documents, as I 
gather, are individual reports on individual rumors and so forth, you didn't 
turn those over? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. As a block? 

Lielitenant Revill. Now, I say we didn't. Let me qualify this, our reports 
that we make up, a copy is submitted to Chief Curry daily. Now, what he 

85 



does with these reports, I do not know. He may have turned these over to 
some Federal agency. 

Mr. Hubert. I tell you what I would like for you to do, if you please, is to 
find out if they have been turned over to the FBI. I know a lot of rumors 
have. 

Lieutenant Revill. All right. 

Mr. HxjBERT. It may be that all that you ran out and reported on they have 
too, and therefore, it would be repetition to have them in there, but what we 
would be interested in is the copy of the reports and investigation of those 
reports or rumors that have not been turned over to the FBI. Now, I wonder 
when you could let me know? 

Lieutenant Retvill. Let you know today. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

Lieutenant Revill. And if they have not, what we will do is pull from our 
file copies, and we will make copies available to you of each and every in- 
vestigation that we conducted of a connection, or rumor, or connection be- 
tween Ruby and Oswald. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, make photostatic copies and turn them over 
to me. 

Lieutenant Revill, Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. I would appreciate it and just write at the bottom of it, if you 
will, and sign it, that this is one of the investigations concerning a rumor, 
conducted by you, or whoever it was. 

Lieutenant Revill. Do you want this as to each individual report, or 
collectively 

Mr. Hubert. You would have to initial each individual report so that we 
would be sure. 

Lieutenant Rb:vill. Yes. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. That those are the reports that you referred to in this deposition. 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. That would be very helpful to me. Then you can turn that over 
to me and we will make it a part of this deposition. In other words, you 
would certify that these reports are the ones that you were talking abotit dur- 
ing this deposition, and that to the best of your knowledge, they are correct. 
In effect, it will be as though you were here or under oath telling us that that 
is correct and that will close the record up. The only other way would be to 
have you come here and identify each one and I am trying to avoid that 

Lieutenant Revill. Let me ask you a question. These reports that we make 
reference to were submitted by oflicers under my supervision. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes ; well, I see your point. 

Lieutenant Revill. Will each one of these oflBcers need to initial them, or 
can I do this? 

Mr. Hubert. Well, we'll have the understanding that this was done under 
yo^r supervision, that you can't vouch for the absolute accuracy of every one 
of them, but that it is a report made in the course- of police department busi- 
ness and that you and the police department rely upon those reports. 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I think that will be fine. Have you been interviewed by any 
member of the Commission's staff by — prior to the deposition of this morning, 
and other than the interview that you and I had just preceding this interview 
this morning? 

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I have not. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, as to the interview that you and I had this morning be- 
fore this deposition began right here in this room have we, in this deposition, 
covered all that we talked about in that interview? 

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Is there any material information that we talked about in the 
interview that has not been brought out in the deposition? 

Lielitenant Revill. I do not know of any. 

Mr. Hubert. That's it. 

86 



TESTIMONY OF CAPT. JAMES MAURICE SOLOMON 

The testimony of Capt. James Maurice Solomon was taken at 2 p.m., on March 
26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and 
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the 
President's Commission. 

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Capt. J. M. Solomon of the Dallas 
Police Department. Captain Solomon, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a mem- 
ber of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. 

Lender the provision of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, 
and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted 
by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolu- 
tion, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. Captain 
Solomon. 

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascer- 
tain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of Presi- 
dent Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In 
particular as to you. Captain Solomon, the nature of the inquiry today is to 
determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other 
pertinent facts you might know about the general inquiry. 

Captain Solomon, you have appeared today by virtue of a general request 
made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel on the 
staff of the President's Commission. 

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written 
notice prior to the taking of your deposition. But the rules also provide that 
any witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Now, I would 
like to ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, then ; would you please raise your right hand. 

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth- 
ing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Solomon. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you please state your full name, Captain? 

Mr. Solomon. James Maurice Solomon. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your age, Captain? 

Mr. Solomon. Fifty-four. 

Mr. Hubert. And .vour residence? 

Mr. Solomon. 1502 East Ohio. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your present occupation? 

Mr. Solomon. My occupation at the present time at the police department is 
reserve coordinator. 

Mr. Hubert. You are a member of the Dallas Police Department? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been a member of the department? 

Mr. Solomon. Thirty years last September. 

Mr. Hubert. Your particular assignment now is to coordinate the reserve 
affairs? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. 

,Mr. Hubert. Of the Dallas Police Department? 

Mr. Solomon. My offices are at the police academy, and I am used out there 
in training recruits. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you in that same position during the period November 22 
to 24, 1963? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I would like you to state for the record just how the reserve pro- 
gram of the Dallas Police Department is set up, because I don't think we have 
it in the record otherwise. 

Mr. Solomon. Well, I am sure you don't. The reserve operates different in 
every city that I know, and just to their particular needs. 

Now, the reserve organization in Dallas is strictly what the name implies. It 
is, really a reserve intended to be called upon when there is a catastrophe, some 
real bad emergency, to augment our manpower. 

87 

731-228 O— 64— vol. XII 7 



It is a semimilitary organization in that we call it the reserve platoon. It 
has three companies commanded by a captain. Each company has three pla- 
toons. And each platoon has three squads. There are approximately — it 
fluctuates just a little bit — but there are approximately 300 men in the 
organization. 

Mr. Hubert. Who is the reserve captain? 

Mr. Solomon. There are four reserve captains. Now, the reserve major is 
Major Tropolis, the major in command. We call him the reserve commander. 
He is George Tropolis. 

Mr. Hubert. Who are the captains? 

Mr. Solomon. The captains are J. E. Marks, C. O. Arnett — I believe .von 
talked to him last night — L. C. Crump and O. S. Muller. 

Mr. Hubert. Do these men train at regular intervals? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. They are all required to go through a training pro- 
gram of about 72 hours. They do that 1 night a week. Takes about 8 months 
to complete that before they are used in any way, before they are given a uniform 
or anything of that nature. 

After they complete this training, they are outfitted with a uniform at their 
own expense, and from then on the participation that they do is considered 
observation training. 

In other words, there is a program set up whereby they report at least two 
times a month. We have it set up twice a month, and mandatory that they 
come every third month. If they don't we drop them. 

But each reserve is required to report at least once a month for observation 
training. He can do this in a squad car, in the jail oflSce, or dispatcher's oflBce, 
or in any phase of the police operation, really, and he is in uniform, and he works 
right alongside the regular oflicer and just assists him in his work in anything he 
wants him to do if he has a belligerent prisoner, but still that is considered 
observation training. 

Here in the last year or so, we have been using our reserves more maybe like 
an auxiliary, but there have been times such as a parade or football parade — 
in other words, it wasn't an extreme emergency, but it was an event that we 
realized we needed more manpower, and they were anxious and willing and 
eager to help us, and they were being in uniform and were doing a good job. 

You want me to continue? 

Mr. Hubert. Do these men get any pay for this? 

Mr. Solomon. No. There is no pay at all. 

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, they buy their own pistol and uniform? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. They buy their own initial uniform. After that their 
uniforms are maintained with the old uniforms that the regular officers outgrow 
or something like that. 

Mr. Hubert. I gather from what you have said that you are rather strict as 
to the training program that these people must observe, otlierwise you drop them? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. What about the basic selection of these people? How do you 
go about that? What are the criteria you use to select them? 

Mr. Solomon. We have just an application form .similar to what anybody 
would fill out in applying for a job, which is for their background, their school- 
ing, what type of work they have been engaged in, where they have lived, and 
so forth. Then, of course, I submit that application to our personnel bureau 
which runs a background check on them, criminal and civil, or any court record 
they might have that might show their emotional stability or we run a credit 
check on them for bad debts or something like that, that kind of indication 
that they are not stable. And traffic arrests. 

If it is somebody out of the ordinary, why we are kind of strict along that 
score. I have these reserve captains that I just mentioned that comprise the 
reserve staff, and each applicant I get after the personnel board submits their 
findings, they interview the men, and they have some information to go on there, 
and whether he is accepted to go to school. After they interview him and ask 
him questions about trying to feel out if they think he is emotionally suited for 
that kind of work. 



Mr. Hubert. What, in your opinion, is it that interests a man to want to be 
in the reserve program? 

Mr. Solomon. Well, that may be a vocation a little bit. You know, before I 
got into the program, I thought maybe it was just a group of people that were 
just trying to — they were just eager. I would say, in other words. 

I thought they were, how should I say it, I just felt like they were kind of 
overeager, or just nosy, so to speak, and they just wanted to see around. But 
after I got into the program, I was amazed to find the caliber of men. I have 
only been in 7 years. I went in 1957. It was begun in 1952. And the man 
that had it then has since made a promotion to inspector, and I was assigned 
out there. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you have satisfied yourself, I gather, that the 
motivation of these people for getting in the reserves is that they consider it a 
civic duty? 

Mr. Solomon. A civic duty, yes, sir ; civic minded. 

Mr. Hubert. It is not just that they want the authority of the uniform? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. Of course, we have applicants like that. It is the 
duty of the staff, in a drawn-out process of training, which is really drawn out 
8 months, and long enough to observe them, to eliminate the one.s they don't feel 
are suitable. I nearly always start off with a class of 50 men and I rarely ever 
graduate over 30 — 27 to 30. 

During that period of time some naturally drop out and some I ask to leave, 
or just wash out, one way or mother, as quickly as I can. After all, it is a 
public i'elations program, and if I understand somebody is in there that I know 
will get us in trouble, I find some excuse for him to leave. 

Mr. Hubert. So, actually, about 60 percent of the people who start ultimately 
get into the program? 

Mr. Solomon. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you watch their conduct very carefully? On duty, of course 
I know, but off duty too? 

Mr. Solomon. Well, yes. We have had a few occasions where a few got into 
some trouble. I guess just drinking or some did get into some bad debts and 
embarrass us, but we counseled with them. And I have had to let some go. 
Percentagewise this hasn't been much greater than in our regular department. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, I want to get to the matter of the interview 
you had with Harold Holly, who I think is a reserve officer? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. HuBE^jT. Can you state in your own words just what that was all about? 

Mr. Solomon. Well, Holly was with us a long time. He was in the organiza- 
tion, I have forgotten how many years, but I don't guess that is important. 

But frankly. Holly was — he is confused. I am not exactly satisfied that he 
is sure about what he is saying. His statements were so general, such a gen- 
eral nature, and when I showed him the pictures he was unable to positively 
identify them. 

This man that he did pick out and said that he looked most like the man that 
was in the basement was W. J. Newman. He was in the basement, but he 
wasn't out at Parkland Hospital where he told them he saw him, and I just 
got the impression that Holly was— he just wasn't too reliable a witness. 

Mr. HuBEJRT. What did he say to you? Of course, we will get his testimony, 
but what do you remember that Holly said to you? 

Mr. Solomon. Well, he first approached me— you see, I was at the courthouse 
down in the area when Oswald was shot, so I knew immediately from the pre- 
vious slaying that one of our big headaches was going to be at the Parkland 
Hospital, and I rushed on out there to try to set up a little security out there. 
And Holly showed up out there after awhile, and he made the statement to me 
that he thinks he knew a man — that is the way he put it, that he thought he 
saw one of the men out there that was in the basement of the city hall who 
knew something about that. And I said, "Who was it," and he said, "I couldn't 
tell you, but I would know him if I saw him." 

Mr. Hubert. Did he say the man was in uniform? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes ; he said he saw him out there at Parkland Hospital, so I 
tried to check. 

89 



Mr. HtJBERT. This was told you at Parkland Hospital? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes ; this afternoon. 

Mr. Hubert. The 24th? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate that he thought he was a reserve oflScer? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. That is why he told it to you, I suppose? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes ; right. So I tried to find out who he was talking about, 
and he went with me and we couldn't find anybody that he thought he saw. 
And just from the way he talked to me, I just lost confidence in what he was 
trying to tell me. But I pursued it as far as I could, naturally, and asked him 
if he could identify some pictures, and I got all the pictures of the men that 
reported out there, and he picked out this man. And from there on, I didn't 
question him any further. 

Mr. Hubert. He did pick out the picture of W. J. Newman and he said that 
was the man? 

Mr. Solomon. He said he thought it was, it looked most like him. I don't 
think that it was, but it looked most like him. 

Mr. Hltbert. Of course, Newman was subsequently 

Mr. Solomon. He was interviewed by Jack Revill. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever talk to Newman yourself about the matter? 

Mr. Solomon. No ; I didn't engage him in any conversation about it because 
I knew they were going to and I just didn't want to get him upset or say any- 
thing. I didn't know what he wanted to exactly question him about. 

Mr. Hubert. So that you have not talked to Newman about what he might 
have seen or thought? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Or what he reported or didn't report? 

Mr. Solomon. No ; that is right. 

Mr. Hltbert. Were you present at the time in the basement, at the time 
Oswald was killed? 

Mr. Solomon. I was not. I was at the county courthouse. 

Mr. Hubert. You were not in the basement itself? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Hubert. You don't know anything about what happened? 

Mr. Solomon. They were anticipating trouble. 

Mr. Hubert. You were in the city hall? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Hubert. I thought you meant the Dallas Police Building? 

Mr. Solomon. No, sir; that is the county courthouse. 

Mr. Hube:bt. I am going to mark for identification a document purporting to 
be a report of an interview with you. Captain Solomon, made by FBI Agents 
Hughes and Mabey on December 9, 1963, composed of two pages, and I am 
identifying it by marking along the right margin line, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 
1964, Exhibit 5106, Deposition of Capt. J. M. Solomon," and I am signing my 
name on the first page and putting on the second page my initials in the lower 
right-hand corner. Captain Solomon, have you read this document? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. So that we may recognize that we are talking about the same 
thing, would you put your signature at the bottom and your initials on the 
second page. 

Mr. Solomon. I don't think that this is what I did awhile ago. You want 
my initials here? 

Mr. Hubert. Just write by the margin and initials by the second page. 

Mr. Solomon. [Signs and dates.] 

Mr. Hubert. Now, you have read that dociunent, I think. Captain? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Is that a correct report of your interview with the FBI Agents? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Is there anything that is omitted or that you want to change, or 
modify ? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

90 



Mr. HuBEBT. Captain, do you know anything about this matter other than 
what we have talked about, that you would like to put into the record, sir? 

Mr. Solomon. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, have you been interviewed by any member of 
the Commission staff? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, before the commencement of this deposition, 
1 did not interview you? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Hubert. I think. Captain, that I mentioned the word "pistol" a moment 
ago in connection with arming of the reserves? 

Mr. Solomon. Did you? I didn't recall it. 

Mr. IJubebt. You indicated to me that actually these men are not armed with 
firearms? 

Mr. Solomon. No ; they are not armed. Would you want to make part — this 
part of the record? This is what I call an information sheet about what the 
reserve is. A lot of times a citizen calls me and wants to know something 
about it, and I mail them that. 

(Hands to Mr. Hubert.) 

Mr. Hubert. All right. I will accept this. I will mark on the front page, 
"Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit .5107." You call that a brochure? 

Mr. Solomon. I call it an information sheet. We generally refer to it as a 
poop sheet. 

Mr. Hubert. I am writing on this sheet, "Exhibit 5107, deposition of Capt. J. M. 
Solomon." I am signing my name, and for identification, if you will sign yours? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. That just gives a little more detail than what I told you 
about it, and I had forgotten that. That might be important that they are not 
armed. That is why we don't let them work in any capacity unless they are 
in the company of an ofl5cer. 

Mr. Hubert. On the day in question, to wit, the 24th of November 1963, the 
reserve oflScers were in uniform but of course not armed? 

Mr. Solomon. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. I notice that this Exhibit 5107 contains information about the 
minimum standards that are required? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. For admission and maintaining the status of a reserve officer, is 
that correct? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Can you state that these minimum standards are in force? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. One other question. Can you state that the reserve officers that 
were on duty on the 24th did meet these minimum standards? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you have anything else to say? 

Mr. Solomon. Well, I don't suppose you want to know that we had .some on 
duty during the Presidential Parade? Is that important? 

Mr. Hubert. It might be in another aspect of the matter, but the one I am 
inquiring about, it is not. However, I am sure that the information that you 
have given me, generally speaking, should be made a part of the record, and 
that is why I have done that. Thank you very much, .sir. 

Mr. Solomon. You are so welcome. 

Mr. Hubert. I appreciate your coming down. 

Mr. Solomon. All right. Thank you very much, sir. 



TESTIMONY OF M. W. STEVENSON 

The testimony of M. W. Stevenson was taken at 7 p.m., on March 23, 1964, 
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert. Jr.. assistant counsel of the 
President's Commission. 

91 



Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Assistant Deputy Chief M. W. Steven- 
son of the Dallas Police Department. 

Mr. Stevenson, my name Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff 
of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of 
President Kennedy. 

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, 
joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by 
the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolu- 
tion, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. 

Mr. Stevenson, I state to you now, that the general nature of the Commis- 
sion's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the 
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee 
Hai'\'ey Oswald, and in particular as to you, Mr. Stevenson, the naturae of the 
inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and 
any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry. 

Mr. Stevenson, you have api^eared here today by virtue of a general request 
made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission. 

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day 
written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But the rules provide 
also that a witness may waive this notice of the taking of his deposition. Are 
you willing to waive this notice in time? 

Mr. Stevenson. I am ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, will you rise and be sworn, please. 

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Stevenson. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you please state your full name, your age, your residence, 
find your occupation, and how long you have been in that occupation ? 

Mr. Stevenson. M. W. Stevenson. I am 60 years of age. I reside at 3452 
Boulder Drive. I am with the Dallas Police Department. Have been for 36 
years. 

Mr. Hubert. What position do you now occupy with the Dallas Police De- 
partment? 

Mr. Stevenson. I am deputy chief, commanding the criminal investigation 
division. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you hold that same position during the period November 22 
to 24 of 1963? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. How long have you held that position? 

Mr. Stevenson. Since November of 1954. 

Mr. Hubert. Generally speaking, what are the functions of your job? What 
are your duties and responsibilities? 

Mr. Stevenson. I am in command of the criminal investigation division, and 
as such, I am responsible for the criminal investigation division of the Dallas 
Police Department. 

I coordinate the work among the five bureaus which constitute the criminal 
investigation division. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you state what those bureaus are, please, sir? 

Mr. Stevenson. I have a homicide and robbery bureau, an automobile theft 
bureau ; I have a juvenile bureau ; a burglary and theft bureau ; and a forgery 
bureau. 

Mr. Hubert. Could you tell us now who was in charge of each of those bureaus 
during the period November 22-24, of 1963? 

Mr. Stevenson. Captain Fritz was in charge of the homicide bureau as the 
inniiediate supervisor. Captain Jones was in charge of the forgery bureau. 
Captain Nichols was off that day, and I don't know which lieutenant was on. 

Mr. HUBE31T. You say, "that day." I was really speaking of the 3-day iieriod. 

Mr. Stevenson. Captain Nichols, I am sorry, was in charge of the automobile 
theft bureau. Capt. F. M. Martin was in charge of the juvenile bureau. Capt. 
W. C. Fannin was in charge of the burglary and theft bureau. 

Mr. Hubert. Just to get the record clear, insofar as Captain Nichols is con- 
cerned, you indicate he was off on 1 day of the 3-day period. Which day was that? 

92 



Mr. Stevenson. I believe that was the 24th. 

Mr. Hubert. Now each one of these bureau chiefs reiw)rts to you and is 
responsible to you, is that correct? 

Mr. Stevenson. That's right ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Who are you responsible to? 

Mr. Stevenson. To the assistant chief of police. 

Mr. Hubert. Who is that? 

Mr. Stevenson. Chief Charles Batchelor. 

Mr. Hubert. In the course of this examination, it would be helpful to us 
if you would try to state an approximate time as to each episode or fact that 
you testify to, and also indicate whether the fact or matter or episode that 
you are testifying to is within your own knowledge; that is to say, gained 
from your own observation, or whether the information you give us was 
obtained from someone else, in that case, tell us if you can remember who gave 
you the information. 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, would you just give us briefly an account of what you 
did from about 12 ;30 on November 22 on forward. 

Mr. Stevenson. At about or approximately 12 :30 p.m., on the 22d, I was 
at the Trade Mart on Industrial, as I had charge of the officers and the security 
of the building for the luncheon of President Kennedy. 

At about 12 :30, approximately, I was notified by Secret Service Agent Grant 
and Captain Souter that the President had been shot. We didn't know how 
severe. It was stated that he was on the way to the hospital. 

I immediately contacted Captain Fritz and two of his homicide men and re- 
lieved them from their assignment at the Trade Mart and assigned them to 
the investigation. As soon as I had done that, I relieved 13 other detectives and 
supervisors. I believe it was 13. I told them to notify headquarters they 
were available for assignment, and if no assignment, to report to the Texas 
Book Depository, as it was reported that there was a possibility the suspect 
might still be in the building. 

After that, as fast as I could safely in my own opinion relieve the balance 
of men who I had on duty, because it had not been aimoimced to the entire 
group there what had happened — that was at the request of the Secret Service 
that we didn't want a stampede there — as fast as I could relieve the others, 
I started relieving and putting them on duty and telling them to report to 
headquarters or notify headquarters they were available for assignment and 
any assistance they could give. 

At approximately 1 or 1 :15, I would say, Mr. Eric Jonsson notified the group 
of people in the Trade Mart that the President had been shot and had succumbed. 
Then as soon as we could empty the building, we relieved everyone and put 
them all back on duty with instructions to report to headquarters, where we 
kept them on duty as long as we needed any on "any of the assignments. Chief 
Batchelor was still at the Trade Mart when we finally relieved all of the men. 

He and I left the Trade Mart and drove to Parkland Hospital to see if we 
could render any assistance out there. When we got out there, we found 
Mr. Lawson of the Secret Service. He stated he would be ready in a few 
moments, to transfer the President's body to Love Field to be flown back to 
Washington. He had no escort. He asked if we would escort the hearse 
bearing the body to Love Field. We told him that we would. He, and I 
believe it was a member of t^ White House staff, rode in the car with us. 
We led the hearse to Love Field. Arrived at Love Field 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what time you left the hospital, approximately? 

Mr. Stevenson. I would say around 1 :40, that is as near as I could say 
offhand, Mr. Hubert. I would say 1 :40 to 2 o'clock. 

Mr. Hubert. So you provided the escort, for the hearse leaving the hospital 
about 1 :40? 

Mr. Stevenson. About 1 :40 or 1 :50. It's got to be somewhere in there, be- 
cause the body was not held at the hospital but a short while. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you know Jack Ruby prior to the time that he shot Oswald? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir. 

93 



Mr. HuBEiRT. Of course, you have seen pictures of him since, I take it? 

Mr. Stevenson. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Hubert. While you were at the hospital, and I would like you to state 
if you can, the time you arrived there, did you see Jack Ruby at any place 
around the hospital? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, I did not. In fact, I did not get out of the car. I sat 
in the car by the radio while Chief Batchelor walked into the hospital to see 
if we could be of any further assistance. 

Mr. Hubert. That was about what time that you arrived there, Mr. Stevenson? 

Mr. Stevenson. I would say we arrived at the hospital around 1 :40. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, then go on. 

Mr. Stevenson. After we reached Love Field, the Secret Service men loaded 
the casket onto the President's plane. They told us that they had called 
Judge Sarah T. Hughes to administer the oath of office to President Johnson. 

She arrived in a short time. We remained at Love Field until she adminis- 
tered the oath and the plane was airborne. After the President's plane was 
airborne, we left and came back to the city hall. We arrived back at the city 
hall around 4 o'clock, I would say. 

Mr. Hubert. When you say city hall, do you mean police department? 

Mr. Stevenson. Police Courts Building, our headquarters. 

Mr. Hubert. For the record, I wish you would describe the relationship 
between what is the police building and the municiijal building of the city hall. 

Mr. Stevenson. The Police and Courts Building is what was, until a few 
years ago, the city hall proper. A new building was constructed adjacent to 
this building and adjoining it just east of the Police and Courts Building. 

It is now ordinarily referred to as the city hall, the building which is on the 
corner of Main, Harwood and Commerce, which is the old city hall, now known 
as the Police and Courts Building, and houses the jail, the police department, 
and one or two offices of our city government. But primarily it is referred 
to, or should be referred to as the I'olice and Courts Building. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, go on. So you arrived back at the police 
department. 

Mr. Stevenson. We arrived back at the office about 4 o'clock, or maybe a 
few minutes later. I went directly to the homicide bureau. Chief Batchelor 
went to the administrative offices. 

Before leaving the Trade Mart, I had gotten information through Captain 
Souter that the suspect in the shooting of Officer Tippit had been arrested. 
On the air on the way to the hospital, we heard several squads being dispatched 
to Texas Theatre. I asked the dispatcher what we had working at Texas 
Theatre, and he advised me that it was the susi>ect who had shot Officer Tippit, 
that he had been arrested at the Texas Theatre. 

At that time I advised them that Chief Batchelor and myself, or "2" and "3," 
as I told him, which are our call numbers, were en route to Parkland Hospital 
and would be in the area and back to the office as soon as possible. When I 
arrived back at the city hall I went to the homicide bureau to see what progress 
on our investigation was made, I was advised that Oswald had definitely been 
identified in murder of Officer Tippit. 

Mr. Hubert. Who advised you of this? 

Mr. Stevenson. Lieutenant Wells in the homicide office. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Oswald at that time? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir: I didn't; he was b^ng interviewed, but I did not 
see him. 

Mr. Hubert. Who was interviewing him? 

Mr. Stevenson. Captain Fritz and some FBI agent, I don't know who, and I 
believe a Secret Service agent. 

Mr. Httbert. Are you aware now of a message that had been sent by the FBI 
to the Dallas Police Department concerning the security of Oswald? 

Mr. Stevenson. Not at that time, no, sir. That was Friday afternoon? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes; but you didn't learn that Mr. Hoover had sent word that 
great care should be taken for the security? 

Mr. Stevenson. Not at that time, I had not ; no, sir. 

94 



Mr. Hubert. Will you tell us without detail, generally speaking, of your 
activities on the rest of the 22rl, and the 28d. 

Mr. Stevenson. After I \Aas advised that he had definitely been identified 
and from evidence which was beinjj checked, it looked like he possibly might 
be the same man who shot the President, I returned to my office in the admin- 
isti'ative offices, and was in and out of the homicide bureau tm numerous times, 
staying in touch with the investigation, and they were in touch with my office. 

About 7 p.m., I believe it was 7, approximately 7, Oswald was filed on for 
the murder of Officer Tipi)it, and was arraitiued in the I'olice and Courts 
Building by Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, I believe it was. 

Now at approximately, I would say, 7 or S o'clock, some word came to me 
from Chief Curry, which apparently was from Mr. Hoover or someone from 
Washington, that they wanted an agent of the FBI or Secret Service present 
at all interviews. That was the first that I had heard of anything from this, 
and that came to me through Chief Curry. 

At about 12 midnight, I was advised by Lieutenant Wells, and I talked to 
Mr. Alexander, assistant district attorney, and Mr. Jim Allen, former first 
assistant district attorney and a friend of the department, and was advised 
that sufficient evidence had been obtained and that charges were being filed 
in the death of President Kennedy. 

Mr. Hubert. Charges against Oswald? 

Mr. Stevenson. Oswald ; yes, sir. He was arraigned. 

Mr. Hubert. They did not tell you at that time, did they, what evidence 
it was, but simply that it was sufficient evidence? 

Mr. Stevenson. No. sir; not all of it. but they told me at that time that the.v 
had found a rifle that they were sure was the one. They had talked to 
witnesses. The officer had seen him in the Texas Book Depository a few 
minutes after the shooting. He was an employee down there. He had left 
the building after the shooting. 

Mr. Hubert. They told you all this at the time they told you that they had 
enough in their opinion to charge? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes ; charges were filed. And at about 1 :30 a.m., on the 23d, 
he was arraigned in the identification bureau on the charge of murdering Presi- 
dent Kennedy, before Judge Dave Johnston, and was returned to his cell under 
guard at that time after the arraignment. I was present at that arraignment. 
I was not present at the arraignment on the Tippit case. 

After he was arraigned, I returned to my oflSce and was in my office, the 
homicide oflBce or bureau where I might have business for the balance of the 
night up until about 3 o'clock, at which time the homicide office was closed 
until the following morning. I remained on duty in the administrative offices 
with detectives whom we had working that night standing by for any assign- 
ments or any other information we might get, that we wanted to investigate 
during the night — and left the city hall, the Police and Courts Building at about 
12 :35 Saturday afternoon. 

Mr. Hubert. Now are you familiar with the lineup conducted in the regular 
assembly or lineup room of the Dallas Police Department of Oswald when some 
newspaper people were present? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Could you tell us about that? First of all, what time was it? 

Mr. Stevenson. That was a few moments after charges were filed, I believe, 
by the district attorney. 

Mr. Hubert. Charges on Oswald? 

Mr. Stevenson. On Oswald in the President's death. The district attorney, 
Mr. Wade, and the assistant, Mr. Alexander, were present. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you present? 

Mr. Stevenson. I did not go into the room, I just went to the door down there. 
I was present when they did go down for the showup, but I did not go into the 
room. 

Mr. Hubert. You say you did not look into the room ? 

Mr. Stevenson. I did not go into the room. The door, of course, was open, 
but I was present when they left the third floor, the homicide office, to go down 
for this lineup. 

95 



Mr. Hubert. You went down to the door of the lineup room? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall looking in at all? *■ 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, I could look in through the open door. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see a man since identified as Jack Ruby, in that room? 

Mr. Stevenson. Oh, no, sir; I did not. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear him say anything? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir. Frankly, I was not close enough. The only ones 
that I could see or did see were those lined up in the front of the room. 

Mr. Hubert. How many people were in that room, do you suppose? 

Mr. Stevenson. I would say, and this is an estimate on my part, Mr. Hubert — 
I would say from 100 to 12."), including officers and news media and every- 
thing. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what security plan or actual operations were put 
into effect with respect to Oswald during that period? 

Mr. Stevenson. When he left upstairs, he was taken back through the jail 
office. From the jail office down, there is an elevator to the downstairs jail 
office, onto the "showup stage," as we call it in the assembly room. He was 
taken down through the jail ; was not taken out from there. 

Now to take him into the showup room, I was not where I could see how many 
officers were around him. But it was necessary to bring him from the elevator 
next to the homicide bureau every time we brought him down to interview him. 
At that time we would have as many as three officex's with him,, and from four 
to half a dozen officers on the route through to the next door. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what check was made of the people who were 
allowed into the assembly room? 

Mr. Stevenson. No one was supposed to have been in the assembly room or 
on the third floor except news media properly identified. 

Mr. Hubert. How was this established? 

Mr. Stev-enson. We had officers at the elevators and the stairways with 
instructions that unless they were an official or connected with an official news 
media, they were not to be permitted on that floor unless they had business in 
one of the other bureaus, and the officer was to escort him to that bureau. 

We later eliminated as much of that as we could that night by calling the 
jail office. If he wanted to visit some prisoner at the jail, the jail personnel 
called the bureau and were instiiicted a.s to whether a pass would be permitted. 

Mr. Hubert. But do you know whether or not, as these newsmen and the rest 
of the other news media went into the assembly room for this lineup, whether 
they were checked in any way again upon entering? 

Mr. Ste\enson. No, sir; I don't, because when I went down to the basement, 
they were already in the room. In other words, they had already flled into 
the room. 

Mr. Hubert. What else do you know in general terms about the security of 
Oswald when 'he was in the cell? I think you have already covered when he was 
being moved? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes ; there was a guard on his cell at all times, and at some- 
times there were as many as two, but around the clock a guard was placed 
outside his cell door. He was not permitted to converse with other prisoners. 
In fact, he was placed in a cell where it would be impossible for other prisoners 
to get to him. 

For the arraignment in the murder of the President, he was brought from 
the jail into the identification bureau, where there is a barred door coming in to 
identification room from jail. He was not brought back through the Police and 
Courts Building proper. He was brought directly from the jail into the identi- 
fication bureau when he was arraigned. 

Mr. Hubert. I think that takes us then to 12 :30 on Saturday. You were on 
duty until 12:30 a.m. on Saturday? 

Mr. Stevenson. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. When did you come back to duty thereafter? 

Mr. Stevenson. I came back to the city hall Saturday evening about 7 or 
7 :15, and went immediately to the homicide bureau to check on any further 
developments, and was advised that the ease was building stronger, other 

96 



evidence being accumulated, and if I might go back a little bit now, at around 
1 o'clock, on Saturday morning — I am trying to get my time straightened out 
here — the pertinent evidence that we had checked in the case of Oswald's shooting 
of the President was forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Labora- 
tory in Washington, D.C., to be processed, the rifle and other evidence as that 
for fingerprints and any other evidence that might help us in the investigation. 

After I had gotten back to the city hall Saturday afternoon, through dis- 
cussion, I don't recall from whom, but in the hallway, that the prisoner would 
not be transferred before 10 o'clock the next morning. 

I went to Chief Batehelor and asked him about the authenticity of that 
particular remark, and he said, "Yes, that's right." And I said, "Has the 
press been notified?" And he said, "Yes." 

Mr. Hubert. What time was it that you first heard about the fact that Oswald 
would not be moved Saturday night? 

Mr. Stevenson. Approximately 7 :30 p.m., on the 23d. 

Mr. Hubert. Now just what was it you heard and what was it that was 
confirmed by Batehelor? 

Mr. Stevenson. I heard, as I stated, I don't know who made the remarks, 
but from the discussion in the hall, that O.swald would be movetl not before 10 
o'clock the next morning. 

Mr. Hubert. Did the information that you received, indicate a time of removal 
the next day? 

Mr. Stevenson. Nothing but that it would not be before 10 o'clock. 

Mr. Hubert. It didn't say what time after 10 o'clock? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did Batehelor tell you what time it would be after 10 o'clock ? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir. I went to Chief Batehelor — the reason I went to 
Chief Batehelor with that when I heard these remarks, I wanted to know if the 
press had been told. I went to Chief Batehelor and aflSrmed the fact that the 
statement had been made and that the press had been told. 

Mr. Hubert. All right ; just go ahead then. 

Mr. Stevenson. I remained at my oflSce in the Police and Courts Building until 
approximately 10 :30 Saturday night, at which time I went home. 

And returned to the Police and Courts Building at approximately 8 o'clock, 
Sunday morning, the 24th. 

Mr. Hubert. Now before you left your duty on Saturday night, do you know 
of any plans that had been made for the transfer of Oswald and the security 
of that transfer? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; not on Saturday night, to my knowledge, I don't 
recall. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, then, proceed to Sunday, please, sir. 

Mr. Ste\'enson. I arrived at the basement of the Police and Courts Building 
at approximately 8 o'clock. Maybe 8 :15. 

I believe Chief Batehelor arrived at about the same time, and Chief Curry 
either came in near that time or a few minutes later. Now, I don't recall. 

When Chief Batehelor and I were in the basement ; we observed a Captain 
Talbert had already started setting up security in the basement and on the 
streets outside. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you describe what you mean when you say he had already 
started setting up security? 

Mr. Stevenson. He had placed oflBcers on the Commerce Street side of the 
city haU at the top of the ramp. 

There was two or three oflSeers at that time, we observed, in the basement. 
And I believe Captain Talbert was in the basement, and one of the serg'eants. 
possibly Sergeant Dean. I could be wrong on Dean being there at that time. 

Mr. Hubert. That was when you first came in? 

Mr. Stevenson. That was when we first arrived at the city hall. It was too 
early at that time to see just where we would want the men assigned, or where 
he would have them assigned, rather, because I was not assigning the men to 
security other than being of any assistance to the men in my division that I 
could possibly be. Chief Curry, Chief Batehelor, and myself looked over the 
basement shortly after, or I would say 8 :45. Chief Curry observed a larg'e TV 

97 



camera sitting back in the alcove as you go into the double doors into the Police 
and Courts Building of the basement. 

Mr. HuBBaiT. Is that the basement side of those double doors, or on the jail 
side? 

Mr. Stevenson. That was just outside the jail windows after you get through 
the double doors from inside the Police and Courts Building. It was sitting 
outside the doors in the part of what is a part of the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. I see. 

Mr. Stb:venson. He instructed that the camera would have to be moved and 
moved across the driveway into the parking area proper. He also instructed 
at that time, I believe it was at that time, that the two cars that were parked, 
I would say it was a squad car and a plain car, in spaces one and two, as I will 
refer to them, were directly across from the door leading out of the basement, 
that they would be moved and those spaces left unoccupied, no cars would be 
parked in there. 

Mr. Hubert. Chief Stevenson, I have before me the chart of the basement 
area including the jail oflBce and parking area and the ramps and so forth. I 
am going to date it, and I am doing so now, "Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, as 
Exhibit 5050," in the deposition of Chief M. W. Stevenson. I am signing it with 
my own name, and I am going to ask you to sign it just below mine, because in 
your testimony from now on out, I am going to ask you to refer to this chart 
and put certain positions down on it. 

Now, when you mentioned just now, a moment ago when you said that Chief 
Curry asked that two cars in spots one and two be moVed off, would you indicate 
on Exhibit 5050 by putting "Spot 1," and "Spot 2," what cars he was talking 
about? 

(Writing on chart.) 

Mr. Stevenson. Right here. 

Mr. Hubert. Just put "Spot," so we will know. "Spot 1," and "Spot 2." 

All right, was that done? Were the cars moved? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir ; they were moved from those two parking spaces. 

Mr. Hubert. What happened next? 

Mr. Stevenson. At that time we all returned back up to the third floor. That 
was approximately, I would say, 8 :40 or 8 :45. 

Mr. Hubert. That would be you and Captain Batchelor? 

Mr. Stevenson. That would be me and Assistant Chief Batchelor and Chief 
Curry. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

Mr. Stevenson. We went back upstairs, and I would say 30 minutes later, or 
approximately 9 or 9:15, Chief Curry and Chief Batchelor had discussed the 
possibility of moving the prisoner in an armored car due to some threats — 
incidentally, I have to drop back a little. 

Chief Batchelor notified me, when I met him down there that morning, that 
Captain Frazier, I believe it was, had called him at home and told him that the 
FBI had called up with some information that, I won't say how many, but a 
group of people were going to take Oswald away from the oflScers on the 
transfer. 

Mr. Hubert. Did Captain Frazier tell you? 

Mr. Stevenson. No ; he called Chief Batchelor, and he told me that Captain 
Frazier had called him. 

Mr. Hubert. Told him there had been a message received from the FBI that 
someone had called the FBI? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Stating that there would be an effort made; is that correct? 

Mr. Stevenson. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Did Captain Batchelor indicate to you at that time whether the 
FBI knew who had made this call? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; he did not. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate to you that it was an anonymous call? 

Mr. Stevenson. I believe, as I remember, he did say that the message that he 
got was that an anonymous caller had notified the FBI. 

Mr. Hubert. All right ; go ahead with it then. 

98 



Mr. Stevenson. They had discussed the possibility of transferring the prisoner 
in an armored car due to these threats. I walked in the office, in the chief's office 
while that was being discussed, and the chief asked nie what I thought about it. 

I told him I thought it would be a good idea, in view of the threats. Chief 
Batchelor went to his office to contact one of the local armored truck operators, 
who was, I believe, a Mr. Fleming, and made arrangements to get an armored 
truck. I remained around the office on the third floor, and I believe Chief 
Batchelor and I made another trip down in the basement before I went after 
some coffee. 

Chief Batchelor advised Chief Curry he had ordered the armored truck and 
told Chief Curry, he and I were going to the basement and look the area over. 
We went to the basement, and Captain Talbert had set up, what we thought, 
was a very good security. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see it yourself? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes ; I saw the officers, where they were distributed. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you state then for the record just what you saw, what 
you stated you considered to be good security? And it might be that you will 
want to use that chart to indicate what you mean. 

Mr. Stevenson. He had placed officers — he had not stationed them definitely, 
but he had officers there checking everybody that came into the basement. He 
had officers down there that searched the entire basement area, searching cars, 
on top of the heat conduits, and so forth. He had officers on the ramp up here. 

Mr. Hubert. Wait a minute, you say, "up here"? 

Mr. Stevenson. At the top of the Commerce Street ramp. 

Mr. Hubert. How many officers did he have there? 

Mr. Stevenson. I don't know just how many. He had some reserve and 
regular officers. And Captain Arnett advised us, I believe it was on this trip, 
that he had been instructed by Captain Talbert to move all of the people to the 
southside of Commerce Street, permit none of them to congregate on the city hall 
or Police and Courts Building side of Commerce, and that he had done that. We 
observed that the crowd was across the street. He had an officer stationed up 
here at the top of the Main Street ramp. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know that officer's name? 

Mr. Stevenson. Vaughn, I believe it was. 

Mr. Hubert. I wonder if you would write his name there in your own hand- 
writing. 

Let the record indicate that Mr. Stevenson is writing the name of the Officer 
Vaughn on Exhibit 5050. 

Can you tell us what officers you saw in the basement area? 

Mr. Stevenson. At that time when I was down there, I cannot say other than 
that I did see Captain Talbert. He was all over the area. 

Mr. Hubert. What time was this, about, again? 

Mr. Stevenson. This was around 9 :45, I guess. As best I recall the time on 
that. 

Mr. Hubert. Any of the news people there then? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir ; there were a few. This camera had been moved. 
They were back over in this area back in here. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, you are indicating on the chart that they had been 
moved to what is called there the parking area ? 

Mr. Stevenson. Parking area of the basement ; yes. 

Mr. Hubert. All right ; go ahead. 

Mr. Stevenson. We returned back upstairs to the third floor. Chief Lumpkin 
and I went to the second floor to the patrol captain's office. Captain Talbert 
came up to the office and asked us to have a cup of coffee with him, which we 
did. He asked us at this time about the time of the route of the transfer. We 
told him at that time that we didn't know definitely, but that we believed that 
it would be east on Commerce to Central, north on Central to Main, and west 
on Main to the county jail. 

Mr. Hubert. You say that you were not certain of that information, but that 
you had gathered it? Could you expand on that and tell us where you think you 
got that information? As far as you are concerned, then, there had been no 
plans that you knew of as to the route? 

99 



Mr. Stevenson. Not the exact route at 9 :45 or 10 o'clock, somewhere in that 
area. He asked us what route it would travel, and we told him that we believed 
that it would go up to the Central Expressway and west on Main at that time. 

Mr. HuBBZRT. When you used the pronoun "we," whom do you mean? 

Mr. Stevenson. Chief Lumpkin and I. 

Mr. Hubert. So that the route, so far as you knew it at that time,, would be 
out of the Commerce Street exit, turning left, going beyond Pearl Street, which 
w^s one way againt the direction which you wanted to go, and then over to 
North Central Expressway? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Turning left again and going to Main Street, turning left again, 
and then all the way down Main to Houston? 

Mr. Stevenson. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he give any instructions, or did he indicate what he was 
going to do in connection with that plan? 

Mr. Stevenson. He said that he would call 10 men from his outside patrol and 
place one at each intersection on the route that would be taken to the county 
jail, which, as I said, at that time we figured would be Main Street, and he did 
make necessary arrangements. 

Mr. Hubert. All right then ; go ahead. 

Mr. Stevenson. After we had drunk a cup of coffee, we returned back to the 
third floor and were advised a few moments later — Chief Batchelor advised 
me that the man had called him and that he was preparing to send the truck 
now. We again went to the basement, he and I, to see about the arrival of 
the armored truck. 

I instructed Detective Captain O. A. Jones to go to the top of the Commerce 
Street ramp leading out of the basement to notify the two officers who were on 
duty there, to assist the truck when it came up and get it backed in as far as 
it would go down the ramp. Captain Jones did this and advised me that he 
also told Captain Talbert what he had done so that Captain Talbert would not 
move the officers when they got there. The truck was en route at that time. 

After the truck arrived and was backed in. Chief Batchelor advised me that 
he and Lieutenant Smart opened the truck up and searched it completely, tak- 
ing out, I believe, a couple of empty Coca-Cola bottles or soft drink bottles. 

I had returned to the third floor, went to the homicide office, homicide bureau 
office, Chief Curry, Lieutenant Pierce, Captain Fritz, and I believe an FBI 
agent, and Lee Harvey Oswald was in Captain Fritz' office and some Federal 
officer had been interviewing him, oh, I would say at least for an hour, and I 
was advised at that time by Chief Curry 

Mr. Hubert. What time was that? 

Mr. Stevenson. That was about 11 :10 or 11 :15 — that they had changed 
their plans after discussing it with Captain Fritz and that instead of using the 
armored truck to transport the prisoner to the county jail, they would use the 
truck as a decoy because a car would be much more mane.uverable if a crowd 
tried or anyone started to stop the car or take the prisoner, that tlie truck would 
proceed east on Commerce from tJie Commerce Street ramp to the Central Ex- 
pressway north, north to Elm Street, Elm Street west to Houston, and would 
turn left and not stop at the county jail, but pass by the county jail on Houston, 
that the car carrying the prisoner followed by another car of detectives, and 
Chief Curry's car, which was also parked out in the street, would leave the 
truck at Main Street on Nortli Central and turn west down Main Street and 
proceed directly to the county jail. 

And the sheriff's office had been notified and would have the steel gate open 
where the car could drive in and the gate could be closed directly behind it. 
When given this information, I left the homicide bureau and started back to 
the basement. 

I met Chief Lumpkin at the elevator on the way to the basement and I ad- 
vised him of the change in plan. On arriving at the basement, I advised Chief 
Batchelor and Captain Jones of the change in the plan. 

I had been in the basemejit a minute or two after I had advised them of the 
change, and two detectives were bringing two police and plain cars from the 
parking area proper onto the ramp from the parking area. 

100 



I stepped across the driveway and instructed the officers ttiere to assist the 
detective in getting these cars up on the ramp where it could back into, to pick 
the prisoner up, and follow the, last car which was driven by Detective Dhority. 
As I came out of the parking area, the car pulled onto the ramp to back up. 
I stepped across behind the car right over here. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, would you draw a little square roughly the size of the 
automobile driven by Dhority, and then place a circle to indicate your own posi- 
tion of that time? 

Mr. Stevenson. That is a long automobile, but as I recall, this post, I was 
standing right here, and the car had gotten back to right along here. 

Mr. Hubert. You were on the south side of that post, standing? 

Mr. Stevenson. I believe I was standing right here at the edge. 

Mr. Hubert. Is that the very front of the automobile on the right side? 
Mr. Stevenson. No ; I was just about at the right door hinge. The right front 
door hinge, that is where I was standing. That is a very poor drawing of 
the car, Mr. Hubert. 

Mr. Hubert. That is all right. Just put in there, "police ear," in that square. 

Now you have also drawn a circle to the south of that post, and I wish you 
would draw a little arrow and put your initials indicating that that was your 
position. 

Now let me get this. Did your position change from the way you have 
marked it here at all up until Ruby shot Oswald? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir ; it did not. If I may explain this a little bit, from 
where I have dravTn this circle, this post that extends out here is built onto 
the wall, and where I was standing, I could see plumb back into here. I was 
not behind the post as it looks like here. 

Mr. Hxtbert. How much space was there between the post and the right side 
of the automobile? 

Mr. Stevenson. I would say there was 3 feet. 

Mr. HuBBaiT. Now, would you describe for us the position of the news media 
in the basement area there, giving us as much as possible the number of people, 
say, on the Main Street ramp, and the number of people in the basement area 
proper? 

Mr. Stevenson. I would say from the corner of the building here, straight 
across. 

Mr. Hubert. When you say, "here," just mark a point. Let's call that "num- 
ber 1" to point number 2. 

Mr. Stevenson. I can make that up this way, I believe. 

I would say in this area, from here to here, and over here. 

Mr. Hubert. Let's say you are talking about the southwest wall of the 

Mr. Stevenson. From the west wall — we term that the west side of the 
driveway of the ramp to the east side, and back up to here. 

Mr. Hubert. And back up to approximately where the ramp begins to go up, 
is it? 

Mr. Stevenson. Let me look at my small map. 

I may have that marked wrong. I may not be saying what I want to say. 
If I have those maps with me, I hope I have as much as I worked on that thing. 
I ought to tell you with my eyes closed. 

I evidently left them. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Let's get at it this way. 

Mr. Stevenson. The driveway end out from right here. 

Mr. Hubert. Don't say from right here. Let me put it to you this way. On 
the Main Street ramp, it is from the 



Mr. Stevenson. That would be the entrance into the 

(Discussion off the record to orient positions.) 

Mr. Hubert. From the corner which is fonned by the intersection of the jail 
corridor and the Main Street ramp on a line roughly due east or northeast, 
rather, and another line running along the Main Street ramp, and then another 
line across the ramp to the wall, how many news people were in that area? 

Mr. Stevenson. I would say, and it is purely a guess, from 30 to 40 on the 
north ramp, Mr. Hubert. 

101 



Mr. Hubert. How many people can you estimate could stand abreast along 
there? 

Mr. Stevenson. It is 12 feet and 6 inches wide, the ramp is. I would say 5 
people could stand in there side by side. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. It actually is a little wider, is it not? 

Mr. Stevenson. It is down here. That is why I was looking for another little 
map I had there. It is 15 and 2 here. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. Well, roughly speaking, how many people did you see abreast 
there, and how many ranks of such people were there? 

Mr. Stevenson. I don't know how many ranks there were. I would say 
there were, counting the oflBcers and the detectives, and that is what I would 
have to go by, because we had detectives ranging that whole area. 

I would say they were 6 or 7 or 8 deep. 

Mr. Hubert. And about 5 or 6 across? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. So that somewhere between 40 and 50 people? 

Mr. Stevenson. Possibly ; yes, sir. 

Mr. HuBEatT. Now, in the basement area itself, in, and particularly that portion 
which faces into the jail corridor, how many people were there? 

Mr. Stevenson. I would say, counting police oflScers and everybody, and 
again that is what I'd have to go by, I would say there were at least 50 in 
this area in here. 

Mr. Hubert. When you say this area in here, you are describing a semi- 
circle? 

Mr. Stevenson. From the two spaces which were cleared in the parking 
area proper back to 

Mr. Hubert. Just draw a line. 

Mr. Stevenson. [Compliance.] 

Mr. Hubert. Would you just mark witliin that line the number of people that 
you think were within that space? 

Mr. Stevenson. [Compliance.] 

Mr. Hubert. Now mark the same way on the Main ramp the number of 
people that were in the area on the Main ramp? 

Mr. Stevenson. [Marking] Well, it is purely a guess. I would say 40 to 50, 
in that area. 

Mr. Hubert. Let me see if I can recapitulate it. 

On the Main ramp there were between 40 and 50 newspeople standing abreast? 

Mr. Stevenson. Not news — police and all. 

Mr. Hubert. And news people standing abreast is roughly five to six to seven 
to eight, perhaps? 

Mr. Stevenson. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. In this other area which you have marked with a rough semi- 
circle, there were between 50 and 60 people? 

Mr. Stevenson. That is an estimate, estimate on it ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, when you came down and observed the moving of the 
vehicle driven by Dhority, were those people in the ramp and basement area 
already located there? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir; they were. 

Mr. Hubert. Do yofu know what security arrangements had been made 
with respect to checking the presence of those people? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir ; the same security arrangement we had used all 
the way. No one was to be permitted into the basement without being a bona 
fide member of the press or news media, and to our knowledge, or to my 
knowledge, there was no one down there except members of the press or police 
oflScers, or oflScers from some department, a Federal oflScer or sheriff's oflSce. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know of any instructions that had been given with ref- 
erence to checking these people for identification? 

Mr. Stevenson. Only what was given to them on the third floor. Now, I 
don't know what instructions Captain Talbert had given the men, but he told 
me he had instructed that no one would be permitted in there unless they had 
a press pass and was oflScially connected with the news media. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you how that would be ascertained? 

102 



Mr. Stevenson. By the officers cheeking them and checking his credentials. 

Mr. Hubert. I think you had gone there earlier on the occasion of about 
9 :45, I believe it was, when you and Batchelor went to get coffee? 

Mr. Stevenson. That was Chief Lumpkin and I drank the coffee, Mr. Hubert. 

Mr. Hubert. Anyhow, I am thinking about the last time that you were there 
prior to yolir going down finally, or to put it another way, the second to the 
last time you were down? 

Mr. Ste\t:nson. The next to the last time was after I drank the coffee, 
Chief Batchelor and I went down there. 

Mr. Hubert. What time was it then? 

Mr. Stevenson. About the best I recollect, aroimd 10:30. 

Mr. Hubert. Now were these news media people in those areas at that time? 

Mr. Stevenson. Not on the Main Street or north ramp, not at that time. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know where they were? 

Mr. Stevenson. They were back in here. 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, back in the basement area? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes ; in the basement area. 

Mr. Hubert. So at that time you think there were approximately, well, 
twice the number of people that you have since described as were in the Main 
ramp and the basement area, roughly about a hundred people? 

Mr. Stevenson. At that time there might not have been, because that was 
some 40 or 50 minutes before the prisoner was transferred. 

Mr. Hubert. Were there people upstairs or elsewhere? 

Mr. Stevenson. Some of them were on the third floor. Some of them were 
on the first floor. Now just where they all were, Mr. Hubert, prior to the 
time the transfer was actually made, I don't know, but about 10 :30, I would 
say that there was not that many down there at that time. 

Mr. Hubert. When you said the first fioor, you meant the first floor of the 
police and courts — of the police department? 

Mr. Stevenson. Of the police and courts building; yes. 

Mr. Hubert. You have already testified concerning the relation of what 
you call the courts? 

Mr. Stevenson. The police and courts building. 

Mr. Hubert. To the municipal building or the city hall? 

Mr. Stevenson. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know of your own knowledge whether there was any 
security as to the entrance to the city hall's first floor ? 

Mr. Stevenson. Oh, only what Captain Talbert advised me, that they did have 
it sealed off and had the elevators stopped on the flrst floor and nothing to 
come below the first floor of the city hall proper. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know about what entrances do exist to the city hall 
municipal building's flrst floor? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes. 

There is an entrance off of Main Street. There is an entrance off of Commerce 
Street. There is also an entrance into what we call a freight elevator off 
the alley on the east side which the alley runs between Commerce and Main 
and right up to the east side of the city hall. 

To my knowledge, those are the three entrances to the city hall proper other 
than from the basement and the elevators tip from the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. Isn't there a corridor, however, that leads from the first floor 
of the city hall to the flrst floor of the police department? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what security there was with respect to that 
corridor ? 

Mr. Stevenson. To my own knowledge, Mr. Hubert, I don't know other than he 
did have. Captain Talbert said he had men on the first floor of the police and 
courts building and I believe that you will find a steel gate that closes off the 
police and courts building from the municipal building. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether that gate was closed? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir ; I do not. I did not inspect that. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether the entrance to the first fioor of the 
municipal building on Main and Commerce were locked or not locked? 

103 
731-228 O — 64 — vol. XII 8 



Mr. Stevenson. I did not inspect them ; no, sir. I do not know of my own 
linowledge, but usually on a Sunday, those doors are locked. 

Mr. Hubert. Is that statement true about the door on the alley? 

Mr. Stevenson. To my knowledge, only the maintenance crews have keys. 

Mr. Hubert. Now were any policemen assigned to any of those three en- 
trances from the outside into the first floor of the municipal building? To wit, 
Main Street entrance. Commerce Street entrance, and the service door on the 
alley? 

Mr. Stevenson. To my own knowledge, I don't know whether Captain Talbert 
told me that he had security on the outside of the doors of the city hall and the 
municipal building, but I did not go out and check those to see. 

Mr. Hubert. Were yooi aware then — that is to say, on November 24th, of the 
position of two reserve oflScers called Brock and Worley? 

Mr. Stevenson. Not by name; no, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know that there were two reserve oflScers in the base- 
ment area, one of them near the elevators and one of them near the 

Mr. Stevenson. This is a driveway into the parking area. 

Mr. Hubert. The driveway into the parking area proper? 

Mr. Stevenson. To my own knowledge, no, sir; I don't. I did not go back 
to the elevators over here to check on that. My oflicers were in this general 
area in here. 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, you are indicating from the intersection of the 
jail corridor and the ramp at the basement? 

Mr. Stevenson. Directly out in front of the jail oflSce entrance, and in this 
area in here, and up this way and back here. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know anything about the removal of those two men 
from the positions indicated? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you observe the shooting? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir ; I did not witness the shooting. If I may explain 
that, when Mr. Dhority backed the car that was to carry Lee Harvey Oswald 
to the county jail, then, as I have stated before, I stepped to the west side 
of it and was right about the front hinge of the door. I heard someone remark 
"They are coming out." 

I looked around and observed Captain Fritz coming right through here. 

Mr. Hubert. From the jail corridor? 

Mr. Stevenson. From the jail corridor. When I saw him, I immediately 
directed my attention to the overall basement area of our security setup to 
observe anything that went on, and they had not taken but a few steps and 
had not reached the back of the car when I heard a shot, and immediately 
again I directed by attention to the prisoner and observed a group of officers, 
I would say, some 8 or 10, subduing someone. 

And as I stepped back here, I saw Detective Graves who had been with 
Oswald. 

Mr. Hubert. When you say, "stepped back" 

Mr. Stevenson. Back to where the shooting had taken place, I saw him 
rise from the crowd with a gun in his hand still holding it around the cylinder. 

Ruby was picked up and taken into the jail oflBce, who I afterwards learned 
was Ruby, and Oswald was also carried into the jail office. Lieutenant Wiggins 
instructed an ambulance to be called. 

I then stepped back out of the jail. 

When the shooting took place, the officers on the Main Street ramp, this one 
up here 

Mr. Hubert. That would be Mr. Vaughn? 

Mr. Stevenson. I don't know that he was one that pulled his gun, but there 
were several reserve officers and other oflBcers down in here. 

Mr. Hubert. That is on the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Stevenson. I was told by, I believe it was. Captain Jones, that the officers 
up there had their guns out. And I stepped back nut of the jail office after 
seeing that Ruby and Oswald had been taken care of. 

The north ramp was quiet, but the officers were having difficulty with people. 

Mr. Hubert. On the Commerce Street ramp? 

104 



Mr. Stevenson. At the top of the Commerce Street ramp, or near the top. 

I stepped back up here and told those officers that the man that did the 
shooting was in custody and there was no more trouble. Ruby was taken 
upstairs and the ambulance picked up Oswald. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you go up with Ruby yourself? 

Mr. Stevenson. No; Captain King, Detective Archer, and I believe McMillon 
went up with-Lee Harvey Oswald. 

Mr. Hubert. You mean with Ruby? 

Mr. Stevenson. I mean with Ruby, pardon me. With Ruby up to the jail 
office. 

Captain King advised me when I came back down that they had stripped 
Ruby of his clothing, searched him to see that he had nothing on him with 
which he could harm himself or harm anyone else, and in about, oh, I would 
say possibly 10 minutes after he was taken upstairs, Secret Service Agent 
Forrest Sorrels did go up and talk with him, and Sergeant Dean, I believe it was, 
took him up there. 

Now this was told to me by Sergeant Dean, that Mr. Sorrels did request 
to go up and talk to him, and he did take him up there. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you observe Ruby before he was stripped of his clothing? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes ; I observed him in the jail office after he had been picked 
up, after he had shot Oswald. 

He had been picked up from just outside the jail office door near the ramp 
and was taken into the jail office, and he was standing in the jail office with the 
detectives holding him, when I walked in there. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you observe any kind of press pass on his person? 

Mr. Ste;venson. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you know Ruby prior to that time? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I had never seen him before, as far as I know. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. Had you seen him in the crowd? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby say anything in your presence that you yourself heard? 

Mr. Stevenson. Not that I heard myself. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you give any orders concerning the search of Ruby's auto- 
mobile? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you tell us what they were, please? 

Mr. Stevenson. I don't recall who contacted me or called me and told me 
where his car was on the parking station near the Western Union, advising me 
that he had a dog in the ear, a dog of some kind. 

I contacted my Automobile Theft Bureau, which handles and is responsible 
for all impounded cars, and asked Lieutenant Smart to go up and get the car. 

He took someone with him, I don't recall who, to impound the automobile, 
search it, and take everything out of it that he could find. 

Mr. Hubert. Now you did not get your information about the location of the 
car from Ruby himself? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir ; I did not. 

Mr. Hubert. And you think you got it from someone whose name you don't 
know or now remember? 

Mr. Stevenson. I don't recall who it was. It is possible someone who had 
talked to Ruby, but now I can't say about that because I just don't recall who 
it was that advised me that his car was up there at the Western Union, but 
I did receive the information and directed Lieutenant Smart to get the car 
and search it thoroughly, impound it, and have the pound take the dog. 

Mr. Hubert. So that when you did get the information about Ruby's car, 
you also got the information that there was a dog in it? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know who was assigned to control traffic at tlie corner 
of Main and Pearl? That is, by the Western Union Office? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Hubert. Or Main and Harwood? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir ; I don't. 

105 



Mr. Hubert. Now, you have made a statement, I think, to the FBI, have 
you not, sir? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes ; I was interviewed by the FBI. 

Mr. Hubert. I will hand you a document that I am going to mark now for 
identification as follows : Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, an Exhibit 5051, Deposi- 
tion of Chief M. W. Stevenson. I am signing my name, and I would like you 
to read it, sir. 

Mr. Stevenson. (Reads.) 

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Stevenson, you are signing it. 

Do I take it by that, that that statement is correct, so far as you know? 

At least that there are no errors in it? 

Mr. Stevenson. As far as I can see, there are no errors. Only one thing on 
this, unless I missed it right here, this does not say anything of the change of 
plan. 

Mr. Hubert. No? 

Mr. Stevenson. It sure doesn't. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, it just speaks for itself. But apparently you called to our 
attention an omission from that statement which has been covered by a part 
of this depo.sition, is that correct? 

Mr. Stevenson. This was taken on the 25th.' I guess that is right. Isn't 
that the date here? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes ; the 25th is correct. 

Mr. Stevenson. I don't understand why that part was omitted, but I was 
interviewed, and there is nothing in here, as far as I am concerned, that is 
wrong, to my knowledge, with the exception of that omission of the change in 
method, of transfer. 

Mr. Hubert. There may be other things also in your deposition that do not 
appear in that document which we have marked as Exhibit 5051. 

Now I show you another document which I have marked "Dallas, Tex., 
March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5052, Deposition of M. W. Stevenson," and I have signed 
it with my own name. It is a part of the Commission Document 81-A, Page 
95-A, and ask you, sir. If that is a correct statement of your interview with 
Captain Savs^yer? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir; it is. I might add on this one, this was to find out 
about our security, the , reason this one was put out, and that is the reason 
they didn't go any further. You want me to sign this? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. As I understand you, that is correct, so far as it goes? 

Mr. Stevenson. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you care to state for the record. Chief Stevenson, what, 
in your opinion, was the cause of the breakdovm of security which resulted in 
the death of Oswald? 

Mr. Stevenson. Mr. Hubert, I don't know whether I can tell you the cause 
or not, but there is no doubt we had a breakdown. And if our investigation is 
right, it was at the Main Street ramp into the basement through which Ruby 
claimed that he walked down that ramp while this officer had his back turned. 
And our investigation showed that he did leave the Western Union Ofl^ice some 
4 or 41/^ minutes prior to the shooting. 

Our breakdown, although this is my opinion, it was unintentional on the part 
of Ofllcer Vaughn, in my opinion, he did come down that ramp. 

Mr. Hubert. Is there anything else you. would like to say, sir, concerning any 
part of this matter whatsoever? 

Mr. Stevenson. Mr. Hubert, I don't recall a thing that I haven't attempted 
to cover. However, if there is anything that I have not covered, I will be 
glad to attempt to or to answer any questions that you might think pertinent to 
it, and anything that I have failed to cover has been unintentional, I assure 
you. 

Mr. Hubert. I simply want to give you an op{>ortunity now to say anything 
else that you might want to say, realizing, of coiirse, that there may be other 
things which don't come to your mind at the moment, but I would like you 
to think about it and tell us if there is anything at all that has not appeared 
in any statement you have made or in any part of this deposition. 

Mr. Stevenson. The only thing that I could say that comes to my mind 

106 



at the present is, up until Oswald was killed in the basement, we felt like 
we had built a good case on Oswald as the slayer of President Kennedy, and 
we felt we had done a good job on the arrest and the accumulation of the 
evidence. 

We just had a breakdown. We were let down unintentionally, in my opinion, 
from the investigation, by one officer that permitted Ruby to get into the 
basement. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you made any other statement, Mr. Stevenson, other than 
those that you have identified as Exhibits 5051 and 5052? 

Mr. Stevenson. Not to my knowledge that I recall, other than the overall 
chronological report that we made to the chief of police regarding the entire 
operation and plan for the visit of the President all the way through until 
Oswald was slain by Ruby in the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. Was that a joint report? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Tell us who prepared that. 

Mr. Stevenson. It was Chief Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, myself, Chief Fisher, 
Chief Lunday, Captain Souter, and all of the supervisors who had a definite 
responsibility in preparing and carrying out the plans for the President's visit 
to our city on November the 22d. 

Mr. HuBE^RT. Was that a written report? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you have a copy of that, sir? 

Mr. Stevenson. It's in this. I believe I have it. (Looking.) 

It isn't in there, sir. I believe that is the entire report. 

(Handing papers to Mr. Hubert.) 

I don't think it would be in there. That is our security investigation re- 
port, Mr. Hubert. You will find that that is signed by Chief Batchelor, Chief 
Lumpkin, and myself. 

All of the officers did not sign it. We merely got their version, their re- 
ports and things and incorporated them in one chronological report. 

Mr. Hubert. You have, Mr. Stevenson, handed me a document consisting of 
34 numbered pages, the first page apparently being unnumbered, dated Novem- 
ber 30, 1963, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police, and bearing on 
page 34, the typed names of Charles Batchelor, George Lumpkin, and M. W. 
Stevenson. 

You have also stated to me that this copy was available to the Commission. 

I am therefore marking it as follows : 

"Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5053, Deposition of M. W. Stevenson." 
I am signing it with my name, Leon D. Hubert, Jr. 

I am going to ask you to sign your name under mine, and I am initialling 
myself, each one of the pages, and I would appreciate it, if you would also initial 
each one of the pages. 

I am placing my initials on each one of the pages in the lower right-hand 
corner of each page. 

Mr. Stevenson. (Initials each page.) 

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Stevenson, I have now signed the first page under my sig- 
nature, that being the unnumbered page. I ask you if you have checked the 
sequence of pages thereafter and find that they run in perfect sequence 1 
through 34, page 34, being the last page? 

Mr. Stevenson. I have. 

Mr. Hubert. You have also placed your initials on each one of those pages in 
the lower right-hand corner below my signature, is that correct? 

Mr. Stevenson. I have. 

Mr. Hubert. The original of this was signed by you, sir? 

Mr. Stevenson. By Chief Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, and myself. 

Mr. Hubert. And you delivered that to Chief Curry? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, have you been interviewed by any of the Commission staff 
prior to the taking of this deposition? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir ; I have not. 

107 



Mr. Httbebt. Well, let me correct you. You were interviewed by me just before 
the beginning of this deposition? 

Mr. Stevenson. Yes ; I was. I answered too quicli then. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. That interview took place this afternoon for about an hour and 
a half, I think, immediately preceding the time that we started to take the 
deposition? 

Mr. Stevenson. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. You have not been interviewed by any other member of the 
Commission staff except that interview with me? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir ; I have not. 

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell me whether you perceive any inconsistency between 
the deposition you have given and the interview that I conducted with you 
prior to the taking of the deposition? 

Mr. Ste^^nson. No, sir ; I don't believe I can see any inconsistency. 

I did do this at your request, or I say with your permission I looked over some 
of my notes before the taking of this, and the only thing that I think was any 
change made was in answer to Captain Talbert's question as to what the route 
of transfer would be. 

I think when I discussed it with you prior to the taking of this deposition, I 
told you that we told him we thought it would go down Elm. When I reviewed 
my notes, it was Main Street that we had told him. 

Mr. Hubert. Now do you know of any other material information that was 
covered in the interview that preceded this deposition which has not been de- 
veloped during the deposition? 

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir ; not that I recall. 

Mr. Hubert. I think that is all unless you have anything else. 

Mr. Stevenson. I don't recall a thing else, Mr. Hubert. 

Mr. Hubekt. Thank you very much. 



TESTIMONY OF CAPT. CECIL E. TALBERT 

The testimony of Capt. Cecil E. Talbert was taken at 7 :30 p.m., on March 
24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and 
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the 
President's Commission. 

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Capt. Cecil T. Talbert, patrol division, 
Dallas Police Department. 

My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr. ; I am a member of the advisory staff of the 
general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of Presi- 
dent Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 
29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted 
by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint 
resolutions,. I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Captain 
Talbert. I will state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's 
inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassi- 
nation of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey 
Oswald. 

In particular as to you. Captain Talbert, the nature of the inquiry tonight is to 
to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other 
pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the Commission. 
Now, Captain Talbert, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a general 
request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, 
Mr. J. Lee Rankin. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are 
entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but those 
rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice in writing. Are 
you willing to waive that notice? 

Captain Talbebt. I'd like to waive it, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, will you stand and be sworn? 

108 



Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Captain Talbebt. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you please state your name? 

Captain Talbekt. Cecil Earl Talbert. 

Mr. Hubert. Your age? 

Captain Talbert. I am 44. 

Mr. Hubert. Your residence? 

Captain Talbert. 1211 Toltec, Dallas. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your present occupation, sir? 

Captain Talbert. Police department. Captain of patrol division. 

Mr. HuBBaiT. How long have you been with the police department? 

Captain Talbert. Seventeen years. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you held the rank of captain? 

Captain Talbert. You will have to forgive me just a minute. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, just approximately is all right. 

Captain Tai^ert. January 26, 1960. 

Mr. HuBEiRT. What are your duties and responsibilities on the Dallas Police 
Force? 

Captain Talbert. I have a patrol platoon. Three captains assigned to the 
patrol division. Each has a platoon. We rotate around the clock and while on 
duty would have the patrol function. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. That is the patrol function throughout the city. 

Captain Talbert. Throughout the city ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Who is your immediate superior? 

Captain Talbert. Chief Fisher ; N. T. Fisher. 

Mr. Hubert. And he is head of the patrol division in general? 

Captain Tai^ejbt. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Three captains under him? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Who are the other captains? 

Captain Talbert. J. M. Souter relieves me, and Capt. William Frazier, who 
relieves Souter. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you in that same position with the same duties and re- 
sponsibilities on the 24th of November 1963? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you on duty on the 23d of November 1963 ? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What hours did you serve then? 

Captain Talbert. Seven to three. 

Mr. Hubert. 7 a.m. to 3 p.m.? 

Captain Talbert. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you go off duty at 3 p.m. on the 23d? 

Captain Talbert. Close to that, I mean close to that time ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. At the time you went off duty about 3 p.m. on the 23d of Novem- 
ber, had you been informed of any plans for a transfer of Oswald to the county 
jail? 

Captain Talbert. Not by police supervisors. I had heard the information the 
chief had given the news media who had insisted on setting up their equipment 
in our jail office, or adjacent to the jail office, and he insisted that they not set 
it up there, and that they would be in the general public way, and only that they 
could report after 10 o'clock on the next day. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, you didn't hear that from the chief himself? 

Captain Talbert. Not from the chief. Only — that is hearsay. 

Mr. Hubert. You obtained from the radio or television or newspapers? 

Captain Talbert. Possibly radio and newspapers, yes, sir. You might know 
we were attentive to all news media at the time. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, what time, then, did you go on duty on the 24th? 

Captain Talbert. The morning of the 24th I reported when — I gave my time 
of duty as 7 to 3. Actually, we report about an hour early so that we can pre- 
pare the platoon, or any revision in the platoon that we have to make. So, at 
approximately 6 o'clock, I reported to our oflSce and relieved Captain Frazier. 

109 



Mr. Hubert. Now, at the time that you relieved Captain Frazier, did he convey 
any information to you? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what he said? 

Captain Talbert. Said he had a communication with Sheriff Decker and Mr. 
Newsom, with the FBI, and both were anxious to transfer Oswald at the time. 
Transfer him immediately to the county jail, and that he had been unable to 
contact the chief due to a phone malfunction. That he couldn't call him. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you what time he had received that information? 

Captain Talbert. He did ; but I don't recall what time, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you of any security plans that had been made to 
transfer Oswald? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you of any security plans that should be made, or had 
been ordered? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he then go off duty? I am talking about Captain Frazier 
now. 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir ; I relieved him and he went off duty. 

Mr. Hubert. What did you do then with reference to the transfer? 

Captain Talbert. Continued his efforts to contact the chief through — going 
through the telephone exchange. I wanted to contact him by telephone. He 
had contacted Captain Fritz with the information from both Mr. Newsom and 
the sheriff, and Captain Fritz said he couldn't transfer him until the chief au- 
thorized it. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to Fritz yourself? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir ; that was conveyed to me by Captain Frazier before 
he left. 

Mr. Hubert. I see. 

Captain Talbert. And I got the telephone company to put a buzzer on the 
chief's line, and there is no response, and they have something that is louder 
than a buzzer. I can't recall the term they use, but you have to get permission 
from the chief operator to utilize that. I had that put on the chief's line, and 
still no response. Obviously the line was defective, so, I had a squad sent to 
the chief's home with the request that he call me. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he call you? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. From his home? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Was his phone out of order? 

Captain Talbert. I don't know, sir, but by all appearances, it was out of 
order. I think that latter item I was speaking of was around the entire neigh- 
borhood, almost. It is quite loud, even though a phone may be off the hook. 

Mr. Hubert. What did you say to the chief? 

Captain Talbert. I repeated the conversation that Frazier had told me that 
the sheriff had told him, and also Mr. Newsom had told him about two calls 
received by the FBI oflSce during the night. Both by men speaking in a calm 
voice and both conveyed the same message that before Oswald reached the county 
jail "A hundred of us will see that he is dead." And the request by Sheriff 
Decker, and Mr. Newsom, that he be transferred immediately. 

Mr. Hubert. It was your understanding that Newsom had received a message 
twice? 

Captain Talbert. His oflSce. Not Mr. Newsom personally. His office. 
Mr, Hubert. I see. Do you know whether any such message had also been 
received by the sheriff's office independently? 
Captain Talbert. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Hubert. What time did you convey that information? 
Captain Talbert. It was approximately 6:30, my conversation with Chief 
Curry. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any instructions? 

Captain Talbert. He said if I would call the sheriff and Mr. Newsom, tell 
them that he would be in his office between 8 and 9, and he would contact them, 

110 



Mr. Hubert. Did you do that? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. After that, what did you occupy yourself with? 

Captain Talbert. The usual duty of getting my platoon on duty and balancing 
the detail. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you do anything looking toward the ultimate transfer of 
Oswald? 

Captain Talbert. Not at that time ; no, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. When did you begin to do anything with reference to the 
transfer ? 

Captain Talbert. Approximately 9 a.m. TraflBc was building up rather heavy 
on the downtown streets. Primarily on Commerce, people going by the inter- 
section of Commerce and Houston and the — viewing the Book Depository Build- 
ing, and we had a few people gathering on Commerce Street side of the city 
hall. 

Mr. HuBiaiT. Did you ever see them gathering on the Main Street side? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know why? 

Captain Talbert. Evidently the people who were gathering realized that our 
exit side was Commerce and our entrance side was Main. 

Mr. Hubert. Is that a fact? 

Captain Tat.bert. That is a fact. 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say internally, your traffic goes from Main to Com- 
merce, and goes no other way? 

Captain Talbert. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. That is a one-way ramp? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir ; all of our vehicles enter on Main Street and exit 
on Commerce Street. 

Mr. Hubert. Of course, there is no physical reason why it couldn't be the 
opposite? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir ; there is. Commerce is one way, and makes it more 
difficult to — Oh, I'm sorry. There is no physical reason. 

Mr. Hubert. No. That's all right. You have explained it. You had misun- 
derstood what I meant when I said, "physical." 

Captain Talbert. Sure. 

Mr. Hubert. Actually, it is an internal rule, that is, a normal rule because of 
the fact that Commerce is a one-way street. 

Captain Talbert. The accessibility to the street. 

Mr. Hubert. Main is a two-way street? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What time did Chief Curry come in? 

Captain Talbert. I don't know, sir. I didn't see him all day. 

Mr. Hubert. You didn't see him all day on the 24th? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. I mean I don't recall having seen him. I didn't 
converse with him. If I saw him I didn't converse with him. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you take any action about looking to the movement or trans- 
fer and the security thereof, of Oswald? 

Captain Talbert. That is a very broad statement and can we narrow it down 
into my actions taken of any probable disturbance that we might have around 
the city hall? 

Mr. Hubert. Just tell us what you did. 

Captain Talbert. All right, sir. At 9, or about. Lieutenant Pierce, that is 
Sam Pierce. 

Mr. Hubert. That is Rio Pierce? 

Captain Talbert. Sam. 

Mr. Hubert. Sam Pierce? 

Captain Talbert. Rio Sam Pierce. R. S. Pierce, [spelling] R-i-o, just like 
the river. Rio Sam Pierce is my central area lieutenant, and I talked the 
situation over with him about the traffic problem, and the people that were 
giving the appearance of going to start gathering on the Commerce Street side, 
and what we should do about the possible security around the city hall. It 
would have to alleviate having to call the squads in over the dispatcher. 

Ill 



At the time, we were working on a Sunday detail, which is one of our 
smallest. Sunday is a less active day, and we have fewer people working on 
Sunday, that is, than we do any other. That is the day we try to get most of 
our — not "mosit," I'm sorry, that is a poor term. We cut our detail down on 
Sunday due to the fact that police activity is light. So, I talked it over with 
him about what we should do about the method of security of the area, and finally 
decided that if — for him to pull three squads from each of the three sub- 
stations, and four squads out of the central station, and to pick two-men squads 
where possible so that we could build up the total number of men that we had 
as quick as possible. 

This second platoon, the day platoon, works primarily one-man squads, 
and our two-man squads are trainee squads. The trainees work with an older 
officer and create a two-man squad there. Could you leave this off just a 
moment? That is something 

Mr. Hubert. All right ; off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Hubert. All right; then, you decided to set up some system of security 
for the police department building? 

Captain Talbert. I further told Lieutenant Pierce to have the basement 
cleared of all i)ers6nnel. Have them searched. Thorough search, and secure 
it, letting only the authorized news media and police officers into the basement. 

Mr. HuBEBT. What 

Captain Talbert. The basement area that 

Mr. Hubert. What system of authorizing newsmen was in use? 

Captain Talbert. Using their press identification. 

Mr. Hubert. Had that been issued specially? 

Captain Talbert. That is the general order, 81, I believe that is the number 
of it. I don't know whether you want to include that in here or not. I 
believe general order 81, is that we would utilize — this is a long-standing — that 
we will utilize the normal press identification to permit news media into scenes 
of incident areas. The amateurs, bystanders, were kept out because they don't 
have those identification 

Mr. Hubert. Is that an identification commonly known to police personnel? 

Captain Talbert. They scrutinize it. No, sir ; each could utilize these difi"erent 
types, but you have to scrutinize their identification. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you say that you permit these persons to enter, but civilians 
without news identification could not enter? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. That was in effect that day? 

Captain Talbert. I utilized it. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, I mean, the order was in effect? 

Captain Talbert. It had not been revoked. 

Mr. Hubert. So, you utilized it? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Therefore, it was determined that when you were clearing out 
the basement, you would clear out all persons who were not police officers or 
news media properly identified? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, can you tell me why you did that as to the basement? 

Captain Talbert. The basement — I am using a very loose term in "basement," 
I meant, and did convey to Lieutenant Pierce, "the area," in which Oswald 
would be — if he was transferred, and I used that term, "if he was transferred," 
I didn't know that he would be. Although, our basement was becoming cluttered 
with newsmen at that time. 

Mr. Hubert. Had you been told by anyone that Oswald would be removed 
from the upper story of the building by use of the jail elevators to the jail 
office, and from the jail office through the jail corridor into the basement ramps. 

Captain Talbert. At that time; no, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. But 

Captain Talbert. But, of my own knowledge that is the only way he could 
be removed to a car unless he went through another floor and out on the 
street. That is the way you go in the normal police building area. 

112 



Mr. Hubert. And do you mean that the normal method for handling would be 
one where he would be brought to the elevator to the jail office, and into the 
basement? 

Captain Talbebt. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, would you state just what you did by way of clearing the 
basement area? 

Captain Talbert. Lieutenant Pierce gave the assignment to Sergeant Dean, 
and in turn to Sergeant Putnam to carry out, and in various stages of the search- 
ing of the basement I think he checked it himself, at approximately 10 o'clock, 
and I gave, by the way, the initial instructions to bring those squads in. I told 
them to disperse their cars, park them on the street, but disperse them. Not 
have them grouped up, and to report to my office by at least 9 :30, and he did 
have that accomplished, and he gave the instructions to clear the area and 
search it to Sergeant Dean, who got Sergeant Putnam to assist him in it. 
About 10 o'clock, I went down to check and see how he had progressed at that 
time. They had checked the news media, they were set up in the jail office. 
The jail office proper. They had cameramen, cameras, reporters on top of the 
booking desk, on top of everything available. The news media was taking over 
the jail office rather heavily, and insisted the chief had given them permission to 
do so. That was about 10. I went into the basement area and Sergeant Putnam 
gave me a lengthy rundown, step by step, on what he had done, or had done — 
see what I mean about my English? — and had accomplished in clearing that 
area, and I personally checked all the doors to the several rooms that led from 
the parking area to see that they were locked. 

Mr. Hubert. Can you specify for the record what doors you did check? 

Captain Talbebt. Starting in around on the side of the ramp, janitor's room. 
Could you hold it a minute and let me see if I can identify it? 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, I think we'll get on the record. 

Captain Talbert. Shall we just say "checked the painters' room"? 

Mr. Hubert. No ; I want to get more particular points than that. Now, since 
you are about to describe your activities with reference to a definite area, I 
want to show you a map or chart of the basement and jail office area, and in 
order that we may properly use it in connection with your testimony, it is 
necessary for me to identify it. Therefore, I am marking it, "Dallas, Texas, 
March the 24th, 1964. Exhibit 5070, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert." And I 
am signing my name to it, and for the purposes of identification, I'll ask you 
to sign your name just below mine. Now, you say that you, yourself made a 
personal check of what is shown on this Elxhibit 5070, as the parking area? 

Captain Talbebt. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Wait. Where did you begin? Right in here? 

Captain Talbert. Right about here, to here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hxjbert. Now, I am marking with a numeral, "1" in a circle, a point 
that you have indicated to me as the starting point of your inspection tour, and 
exactly just what did you do there? 

Captain Talbebt. Well, that's 

Mr. Hubert. And then I am going to ask you to just simply draw a line as 
to the general portion that you want, and whenever you stopped, we will mark 
the stop with No. "2, 3 and so forth", and just use this map and mark it in that 
way, keeping in mind that you must speak in such a way that a person who 
reads this later on may be able to understand the movements. Now, you are 
starting at a point that is marked No. "1" in a circle? 

Captain Talbert. I checked the door No. "1", which is the painters' room to 
see that it was properly locked. I proceeded to the doctor's room, and I checked 
it. 

Mr. Hubert. And you are marking that 

Captain Talbert. That is "2." 

Mr. Hubert. "2" in a circle? 

Captain Talbert. I asked what has been done about the doctor's services. 
Sergeant Putnam told me he had moved that doctor out of that room and into 
the police locker room. 

113 



Mr. HUBEBT. Did you check those doors? 

Captain Talbebt. Checked the door to see that it was locked, and it was ; yes, 
sir. 

Mr. Hubert. It was locked from the outside? Could somebody in there have 
come in ? 

Captain Talbert. There should have been no one in there, because there is 
no entrance to it. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. Did you check in the doctor's room? 

Captain Talbebt. No, sir; I had no key to get in. The doctor and the porter 
would have the key, but I didn't have. I went to this [indicating]. This is 
the stairway, and this — there is another — there is another stairway coming in 
here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. From point "2"? 

Captain Talbebt. Actually, this is — can you stop? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Captain Talbert. I went to point "3" and tried the other door which was 
locked externally. Went to point "4" 

Mr. Hubert. Before you leave point "3," did you know whether that door was 
locked from the other side? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. So, that a person in the stairwell 

Captain Talbert. That is not the stairwell, sir, that is the second dooj of 
the first aid station. 

Mr. Hubert. Oh, the second door of the first aid station? 

Captain Talbebt. "3" it is the second door of the first aid station. "4" to 
the stairwell leading downstairs to a subbasement, engineroom, and leading 
from the first floor down to the basement area is a fire escape type — that door 
was secured from the outside. 

Mr. HtJBERT. Do you know if anybody on the inside of that door could have 
come from the stairwell into the basement? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir ; it has — that particular door, I have since learned — 
I didn't know it at that time, but I have since learned that that particular door 
has a fire escape type latch. That bar-type latch, and I did check and find that 
the first fioor — not the basement, but the first floor of the city hall had its 
interior door, both on the Commerce Street, Main Street, and the hallway locked. 
It is a procedure that they use over th& weekend, and after 6 p.m., in the 
afternoon, those doors are locked, so, anyone not in the building at the time 
wouldn't have had access to this unless someone unlocked it for them. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you check those entrances at the first floor of the municipal 
building on the 24th? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. How did you do that? 

Captain Talbert. As I recall, just from the — this particular time after finish- 
ing this search, I went to the sidewalk area on Commerce, and into the entrance 
that is left open for payment of water bills and the interior door there was 
secure and locked. 

Mr. Hubert. So, then a person could not get into the first floor of the city hall 
through that door on Commerce Street? 

Captain Talbebt. Yes, sir ; and in further checking around the building I 
went through the police courts building and in checking the Main Street door 
and then, in turn, checked the Main Street entrance, and it was locked. 

Mr. HuBBaiT. Main Street entrance to the municipal building? 

Captain Talbebt. To the municipal building. 

Mr. Hubert. And it was locked? 

Captain Talbert. And it was locked ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you check the several entrances on the alleyway which 
runs from Main to about halfway up the block and makes an L-tum and then 
runs to Pearl? 

Captain Talbekt. I did not check that entrance, because the thing is locked 
any time after 6, and on the weekends. We can't enter that way. Matter of 
fact, we have orders not to enter that way at anytime, but sometimes we, in 

114 



parking, we find it convenient to enter through that elevator and the service 
elevator from that entrance, and we always find it locked. We have to get a 
porter's attention by banging on the door to get it unlocked. 

Mr. Hubert. Since we are on that subject, how would you go through that 
service entrance on the alleyway into the first floor of the municipal building? 

Captain Talbert. The service entrance has some side doors leading off of it. 
I don't know whether they are broom closets, or go into rooms or what, but 
into the service elevator, both sides of the elevator has operable doors. 

Mr. Hubert. That is — so call it the Harwood side on the elevator, and the 
Pearl Street side. 

Captain Talbert. This is going to the Central Expressway over here [indi- 
cating] . 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Captain Talbert. And, so, the — the expressway side and the Harwood Street 
side has doors that do open. Both sides of that elevator have doors that would 
open, and the operator could open either one of them, and you can come in from 
the entrance and exit from this Harwood Street side. Enter from the expressway 
side and exit from the Harwood Street side. 

Mr. HuBBUJT. If it were possible for a person to gain entrance through the 
service entrance into the first floor of the municipal building by use of the 
service elevator, that is to say, by walking through both of the doors of the 
elevator, he could then get into the stairwell of the fire escape on the first floor, 
could he not? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And by walking down to the basement level at the point 

Captain Talbest. Designated "4"? 

Mr. Hubert. Designated "4," he could get into the basement area in that way. 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir ; but we had an operator on the service elevator with 
instructions not to allow anyone to basement, and he was — allowed no one to 
come in. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know who that person was? 

Captain Talbert. I believe his name is Mitchell, sir, to the best of my memory, 
is his name. 

Mr. Hubert. Is he a member of the police department? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir ; he is a porter, a colored porter who works within 
the city hall building, itself. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to that man? 

Captain Talbert. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. What did you tell him ? 

Captain Talbert. At the time, I told him to take his elevator up on the flrst 
floor. I put the parking attendant on that elevator, or instructed the parking 
attendant to get on that elevator and go up to the first floor, and for the parking 
attendant to maintain a vigil lookout on this elevator marked Nos. "1" and "2" 
here, which will be "5" and "6" in my route. I told him to see that no one came 
nearby those elevators, and told the operator of the service elevator to stay on 
it, and not bring anyone to the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. Who was the parking attendant? 

Captain Talbert. I'm going to have to utilize his nickname, and it is rather 
far-afleld. I should know his name. His nickname is "King," it is one we 
have used for quite some time. 

Mr. Hubert. Is he a member of the ix>lice department? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir; he is a colored parking attendant who works for 
the municipal garage. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether he carried out your orders, Captain Tal- 
bert? 

Captain Talbert. To my knowledge, he did. I don't know that he did, but 
to my knowledge, he did. 

Mr. Hubert. You don't know to the contrary then? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, will you continue, then, your security search which we had 
left off, I think, at a point marked "4"? 

Captain Talbert. I went from point "4," the elevator — the stairwell, to the 

115 



elevator. The first service elevator to the building on the — not service elevator, 
delete that, young lady — ^first elevator in the building marked "1", here, but 
wiU be marked "5" in this route. And that door was closed. Went to the next 
elevator which was Immediately adjacent to the first one marked "6," that 
door was closed, indicating the elevator was not on that floor. These are 
automatic elevators and the doors would be open if it was. Then went to the 
service elevator, and had the foregoing conversation with the operator and the 
parking attendant. That is marked No. "7." 

Mr, Hubert. All right, just continue your search? 

Captain Talbebt. From that area, or in that immediate area I had another 
discussion with Sergeant Putnam and asked him about the engineroom elevator, 
this elevator being on the extreme corner of the parking area on Ck)mmerc'e 
Street, next to the ramp. This elevator comes from the engineroom to the 
parking area only, and doesn't go to the first floor. Anyone entering through 
that elevator would have to be in the engineroom, which is a subbasement, to 
enter into this basement. That is the only place it goes. One floor. 

Mr. Hubert. And you have marked that how? 

Captain Talbeet. Marked that "8." Sergeant Putnam had placed a reserve 
ofllcer at that i)oint to 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, were any other reserve officers placed in the 
parking area, to your knowledge, or any other officers for that matter? 

Captain Talbebt. May I mark on 

Mr. Hubert. Surely. 

Captain Taxbert. A res'erve officer whose name I do not recall, was placed 
at a point marked "9," with the instructions not to permit anyone to enter the 
parking area from the elevators or stairwell. But a reserve officer was placed 
in the point marked "8." We — I think we have that in the deposition now. 
Reserve officers were, at that time, brought forward wh'en I asked if the con- 
duits had been searched, the top of the conduits, and — the air-conditioning 
conduits, if they had been searched. They brought the two reserve officers for- 
ward who had the filthiest uniforms. It was quite obvious that they had been 
crawling around on top of them, They had searched them, and I took their condi- 
tion to state that their search had been thorough and the fact that Sergeants Put- 
nam and Dean told me that they had covered each one, that the engines, engine 
compartments, the trucks as well as the vehicles parked in the basement had been 
searched for possible hiding places, and all of this was accomplished. After 
the search was accomplished, after officers were placed in the adjacent ramps 
on th'e Commerce Street side, on the Main Street side, and from the lobby of 
the police building marked "10," lobby of the police building into the area in 
front of the jail office leading into the ramp area — may I mark the places 
where the officers were now? The reserve officers — ^we are getting a — can I 
hold it for a minute? 

Mr. Hubext. Yes. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Captain Talbert. All right, now, I will go ahead and mark the area where 
we had each 

Mr. Hubert. Yes; you marked "10," that you had an officer there. 

Captain Taxbebt. I had an officer and — a reserve officer was at "11." Two 
detectives were — Lowery and Beaty — Beaty and Lowery. "12" and "13" most 
of this period. Number "14" on the Main Street entrance to the police ramp 
was Vaughn, B. E. Vaughn, and number "15" and "16" were Patrolman Jez 
and Patrolman Patterson. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you ever order the reserve officer at the point "9" 
removed? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know that he had been? 

Captain Talbebt. No, sir ; at 11 o'clock, when the detail was made up to put 
traffic men on Elm Street, it was gathered in that area, and that man was in 
place at that time, at 11. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know that? 

Captain Talbert. If he was moved after 11 I don't know who moved him or 
where he went, but the ifeserve officer "9" was in place at that time. 

116 



Mr. Hubert. You don't know what his name was? 

Captain TALBEatx. I believe Brock is going to be his name, but I am not sure. 

Mr. Hubert. I think it is Brock. Now, then, you mentioned something about 
drawing off persons to patrol the intersection of Elm Street? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you tell us something about that, please? 

Captain Talbert. We had kept as many officers out of the basement area as 
possible to keep from adding to the confusion of the search so we could make 
a systematic search, and I had retained all of the excess officers, and, as I 
recall, numbered about 13 regular police officers in my office and the reserve 
officers, and excesses were retained in an assembly room which would be behind 
the jail office, and after about 11 — let's back up and make that about 10:45 — 
in that vicinity, Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin, contacted me about the 
route of the proposed transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald, and they asked — correc- 
tion — I asked if we were going to use marked cars or plain ears, or if we were 
going to utilize sirens to stop traffic at intersections? 

Chief Stevenson said he didn't want any attention attracted to the transfer 
that wasn't already attracted to it, and asked if I had enough personnel to put 
in the intersection of Elm Street. First he said Main Street. The first route 
planned was Main, and it was changed to Elm before I could so disperse the 
personnel, so, actually, we utilized Elm all through this. 

Mr. Hubert. Just as it was? 

Captain Talbert. And they said first Main and then before — after I had 
removed the men from my office to the ramp — not the ramp area, but the park- 
ing area and told Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Steele to place them on each 
intersection to stop traffic for the lights as the people making the transfer 
approached them. Found then that it was to be Elm Street instead of Main, 
that it was to be Elm rather than Main and the traffic could go — the reason 
being that they could swing off of Elm into Houston, directly into the prisoner 
loading area of the sheriff's office, and those 13 men were placed by Sergeant 
Steele at each intersection. He didn't have enough. I instructed him that he 
obtain any additional men he might need from the captain who was in the area 
of the county jail, and he later called me by phone and told me of the traffic 
conditions down there, and I had an estimate, I don't recall whether from him 
or some other officer of the approximate number of people in that area, said 
around 600 or so gathered up around the county jail ; so I instructed Steele to 
have each one of the men fall in behind or follow fairly closely behind the 
conveying vehicle so they would be available for any trouble that might 
develop around the county jail. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you ever told by anyone of the plans of the transfer? 

Captain Talbert. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. That is, the ultimate plan or the 

Captain Talbert. Well 

Mr. Hubert. Any sequence of plans? 

Captain Talbert. After the plans had been instituted. Lieutenant Pierce, 
who I had sent to the homicide bureau previously to see if we could be of any 
assistance, or see if he could do anything — I didn't see him enter the basement, 
but as he pulled up onto the ramp — or in an effort to enter the ramp, he stopped 
his vehicle and called me over and asked me to get in his car. I opened the 
door, got in on the right-hand side of his car and he told me my — I omitted 
something, I believe, about this armored car, haven't I? Do you want that 
in there? 

Mr. Hubert. We'll come back to it. 

Captain Talbert. All right. He told me that he had been instructed to take 
a car out and get in front of the armored car which was backed into the ramp 
on the Commerce Street side and to lead the armored car. He was to be the 
lead vehicle and the armored car, it would go up northbound on Central to 
Elm, west on Elm and swing in off of Elm on to Houston Street. That two 
plain cars would pull up behind of the armored car. The prisoner would 
actually be in the last plain car, and the first plain car would be full of armed 
homicide officers, and it would cut off on Main Street, west. It would leave 
the city hall with the cavalcade, and when it hit Main Street the two plain 

117 



cars with the homicide officers in them with the prisoner would make a left 
and go west and the armored car and the lead vehicle there would continue to 
Elm and then west. The two vehicles, or rather the two groups of vehicles 
would be paralleling each other. One on Main, and one on Elm. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what the plans were with reference to the con- 
trolling of traffic on Main Street on which the prisoner was actually going to 
be transferred? 

Captain Talbekt. No, sir; that was the first information I had is the fact 
that the prisoner would not be in the armored car. Up until that point, I 
assumed he would be in the armored car. 

Mr. HuBBiRT. But, at that point, it became apparent that he was not going 
to be in the armored car? 

Captain Talbebt. Right. 

Mr. HuBEBT. You had already set up a traffic-control system by having as- 
signed meh at various intervals on Elm? 

Captain Talbebt. Elm ; yes, sir. 

Mr. HuBE3iT. But, if they were going to use Main Street, what control would 
be used for cross traffic, crossing Main Street? 

Captain Talbebt. I have no knowledge, sir. Probably normal transportation, 
more than likely. That is strictly my idea. 

Mr. HuBEKT. Now, you said that you wanted to say something about the 
armored car. 

Captain Talbebt. Yes, sir; I had previously been instructed about the ar- 
mored car by Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin, that was at the time they 
asked that the officers be placed on Main, and later transferred in to Elm 
Street, and at the instruction I had, was to have a man bo observant, to make 
sure that the armored ear didn't hit — didn't jam it into the overhead of the 
rampworks. 

When the armored car arrived they did back it into the Commerce Street 
side, and the driver left it up near the front of the ramp because of its weight, 
rather than height. Although, due to its height, it couldn't have backed much 
farther down the ramp, but he was afraid that due to the weight of the car the — 
it wouldn't pull it out. The engine wouldn't have enough power to pull it out of 
the ramp, and so it was left in that position until after Lieutenant Pierce pulled 
the plain car that was his normal assignment car, I think equipment 239, al- 
though, that is irrelevant, attempted to pull it up the ramp. He couldn't get 
through the news media, which I would like to add to a little later. I previously 
had the news media in the jail office. Now, during one of my inspection trips 
I inspected the first floor of the Police and Courts Building from the doors for 
Harwood and Main Street to see that there was no congestion, and also, to look 
the crowds over on Commerce, and during one of my trips, or perhaps I was con- 
tacting the dispatcher — I was still conducting my regular patrol duties — the news 
media was moving from the jail office to the ramps to clear the jail office of them. 

Mr. Hubebt. Did you supervise that movement? 

Captain Talbebt. No, sir ; Chief Batchelor arrived and was told of the prepara- 
tion that had been made in the basement, and I assumed looked at the office. 
I wasn't present, but I assume he looked in the office and asked that that news 
media be removed. He was talking to Sergeant Putnam and Sergeant Dean. 
I wasn't present, nor was Lieutenant Pierce there. 

Mr. Hubebt. So, the news media were moved out of the jail area and where 
did they then go? 

Captain Talbebt. I was told — and this by Sergeant Putnam — that they were 
first placed on each side of the ramp leading from Main and Commerce, and after 
the chief observed the conflict there, he had those on the Harwood Street side 
of the ramp moved across the ramp onto the Main Street side to keej) — to make 
more room for vehicular traffic, and that, of course, was ""om Sergeant Putnam 
to me. I don't know what instigated 

Mr. Hubert. Well, did you have occasion to observe the news media in the 
ramp and parking areas just prior to the shooting of Oswald? 

Captain Talbebt. Yes, sir. 

Mr. HuBBsiT. Well, now, I think I should like to have you describe that, and in 
order to facilitate that, I am going to draw a general oblong flgure which I am 

118 



marking "Area A," and I'm going to draw another general oblong figure which 
I am marking "Ai"ea B," and I would like you to tell us for the record 

Captain Tai^bert. May I inject another— — 

Mr. HuBBJRT. Well, then, I will mark another oblong area, which I will call 
"Area C." 

Captain Talbert. All right, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I would like you to describe that for the record — that is, what 
were the conditions of those areas particularly with reference to congestion 
of people? 

Captain Talbert. Across from "Area A," there was complete double line and 
in some instances triple line of men. That was men with cameras and those 
without. Just the reporters who had no cameras, and in "Area B," in the 
center of "Area B" I 

Mr. HuBBaiT. Before you leave "Area A," would you say that the men were 
shoulder to shoulder? 

Captain Taxbert. Oh, more than that. Crammed in there. Jammed 

Mr. Hubert. Touching each other? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. HUBE31T. And about three ranks back toward Main Street? 

Captain Talbert. That is my impression, yes, sir, about three ranks back. 

Mr. Hubert. Describe "Area B," then? 

Captain Talbesit. And "Area B," you had a railing as indicated here by a 
dotted line. In front of that railing you had at least two or — probably three 
ranks of people all the way down to the turnoff area, which is the beginning 
of "Area C." In the center of "Area D," there were two fixed cameras. 

Mr. Hubert. Television cameras? 

Captain Talbert. Television cameras, yes, sir. The others were movie or 
still cameras and other cameramen, or strictly reporters, and in "Area C," we 
had a fairly dense group in the immediate Main Street side, and two to three 
ranks over towards the Commerce Street side dividing it in half. 

Now, immediately after Lieutenant Pierce informed me of the change in plans, 
we had to remove the people from the ramps so that he could get out on the 
Main Street side, and they immediately closed back up, and as he cleared the 
parking area to enter the ramp, a plain white or light-colored car pulled onto it, 
and pulled up behind the armored car on the Commerce Street side, and another 
plain light-colored car attempted to pull up behind him, but he wasn't up far 
enough, so, we had to holler at them to pull up a little further, which he did. 
That car was attempting to back in, and had to cut to the left in order to back 
up the vehicle — go to the right to get back into the jail-office entrance. That 
was my understanding of his efforts to do, and the news media was crowding 
in on him, so, that there was danger of him running over them with his vehicle, 
should it move. So, I was by the left front fender of that vehicle. Chief Batchelor 
was to my right. Captain O. A. Jones to my left and~we were — and one or two — 
perhaps more reserve officers were there, too, pushing the news media back to 
let that car have room to maneuver. 

Mr. Hubert. I am going to mark on the map an area which I am marking 
"auto," and 

Captain Talbert. All right, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. With the understanding that the front of it indicated by an arrow 
is pointed toward Oonunerce Street? 

Captain Talbbsit. All right, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, would you mark the circle where you were 
about the time of the event you have just described? 

Captain Talbert. This auto is angled in here. 

Mr. Hubert. Maybe we had better angle it then. 

Captain Talbert. Would you like that black pen? 

Mr. Hubert. You do it. We are changing the blue-pen marking because 
Captain Talbert indicates that the automobile was on an angle, and he is now 
marking it with the black pen. Would you put the word "auto," in that, please. 
Now, draw a circle and indicate where you were standing. 

Captain Talbert. I was standing by the left front fender of the car, as I 
previously said. 

119 

731-228 0—64— vol. XII 9 



Mr. Hubert. [Drawing a circle and indicating it number "7."] 

Captain Talbert. Compared with the other, yes. And Chief Batchelor was 
standing just to the left front of the vehicle, and — I can't draw it in there 
with this circle correctly, but — we'll indicate that "18," Capt. O. A. Jones was 
standing to my left, or to the rear of the vehicle from me. Indicating that to 
be "19," and at the time that vehicle was attempting to back up, we had pushed 
them back far enough for it to maneuver. At the time it was attempting to 
back up, there was a muflJed report, a muffled shot and bedlam broke out in the 
vicinity of the jail office entry into the ramp. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see the shot? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir ; I heard it, but did not see the shot and that there 
was my first knowledge that the prisoner was in the ramp area. 

Mr. Hubert. Which way were you facing just before the shot? 

Captain Talbert. Just before the shot, I was facing the crowd. I had faced, 
alternately, the automobile and the crowd, as we were attempting to get the 
thing back, and I was facing the crowd and could feel the automobile pushing 
against me, I was turhing around and pushing back against the car, and as I 
made a little room, fac<e4 the crowd again and pushed them back. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir; I didn't see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave, because 
of the news media across "Area A." They screened it from me and also because 
of my preoccupation of getting these two plain cars up behind the armored 
vejtlcle. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Ruby? 

Captain Talbert. I know Ms face. I know his name. I know his reputa- 
tion well. I don't know him personally. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever met him before? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him that day? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I mean after the shot? 

Captain Talbert. After the shot, yes, sir. I'm sorry. After the shot, or after 
this muffled report, I went over the back of the trunk of this automobile we 
were trying to back in. Because of these people pushing in I couldn't get — so, 
I went over the back trunk of it to get to the officers. I saw they were down, 
and the melee that was taking place, as news media was crowding around in on 
them, and I give them a little room, and saw both Oswald and another man there 
who was being dragged into the jail office by the other officer. As soon as we 
got some room for them to drag them in, I shouted to the top of the entrance 
both on Commerce and on Main — this may not give you the perspective scope 
correctly, but it is about 90 feet on — from the place of the shooting to the Main 
Street entrance. I shouted up to the entrance, "let nobody out," or "nobody out," 
or something to that effect, and shouted to the top past the armored car the 
same thing. "Nobody out," and officers on this door told them, "Nobody out," 
and then went into the jail office, and Ruby was lying on the jail office floor 
where — with the officers at the time, attempting to handcuff him, as I recall. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize him at that point? 

Captain Talbert. I saw his face. That I recognized, but I didn't recognize 
him as "Ruby." I asked a question, and may I say this in front of the young 
lady? I have to apologize. Do you want it verbatim? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. I'm afraid so. 

Captain Talbert. I asked the question — ^I said, "Who is this son-of-a-bitch?" 
And he was saying, "I'm Jack Ruby. Everybody knows me. I'm Jack Ruby." 
At the same time another officer, or perhaps to answer that — "That's Jack Ruby, 
he operates the Carousel Club." 

Mr. Hubert. That was when you first recognized him? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. As being someone that you knew? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. You had not seen him prior to that time on that day, to your 
knowledge? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir, nor for 2 years prior to that, to my knowledge. 

120 



Approximately 2 years prior to that I was having breakfast at the Pancake 
House at the Ramada Inn with other officers when a man going out — we were 
sitting down and the man was going out and passed by and stopped. Was — 
and he was obtrusively friendly with the other officer, one of them he knew. 
He knew Lieutenant Pierce who was with me, and Lieutenant Pierce intro- 
duced me to him, and from that point until the point where he was on the floor 
at the jail office, I don't recall having seen him, and the only reason that I 
remember the Pancake incident, it was after the incident I was reminded of 
the incident by Lieutenant Pierce. I don't recall of having met him at any 
time since the old days of his operation at the Silver Spui . 

Mr. HuBEBT. Did you talk to him, or see him after that? 

Captain Talbeet. No, sir, I asked — at that time, I didn't know they had the 
gun. I didn't see the gun, so, I thought it was still in the crowd, and I asked 
Chief Batchelor for permission to put all of the news media in the police as- 
sembly room for interrogation, or somebody said, "I don't think we have the 
gun." One of the officers who was kneeling on Ruby — literally, you couldn't 
hardly see Ruby for this officer kneeling on him — said, "I have the gun." Or 
I)erhaps he said, "Graves has the gun." And then I told Chief Batchelor that 
it wouldn't be necessary to search them. 

I got a batch of memo pads from the jail office and gave some of them to 
Sergeant Everett, passed some out myself, told the officers to get the names, 
identification and location at the time of the shooting of anyone before they 
let them out of the basement. Chief Batchelor had told me to go to Parkland 
and secure it. I immediately got in my car, got on there and told the dispatcher 
to gather up all of my squads and to have them to report to me code 3, at 
Parkland and followed the ambulance out to Parkland. 

Mr. Hubert. When did you first hear that Ruby had stated that he had come 
down the Main Street ramp? 

Captain Talbebt. I started my own investigation. Of course, I had nothing 
to do with this official investigation of the incident in the basement, but it is 
only natural that a police officer and a police supervisor is going to instigate 
his own investigation. I started mine from the hospital on the phone, and 
that question would be impossible to answer. I may have heard it through the 
news media. I heard — may have heard it through another officer who had 
overheard what they said up in the jail. It could have been something of 
that sort. I couldn't tell you exactly, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you, in fact, conduct an independent investigation of your 
own? 

Captain Talbebt. Just a very cursory one, and during a very brief period Until 
the official investigation got underway. 

Mr. Hubert. How long a time would that have been? 

Captain Talbebt. Well, maybe 

Mr. Hubert. Put it this way, what did you do by way of instigating the 
investigation? 

Captain Talbeet. Contacted, attempted to ascertain how Ruby entered the 
ramp, or entered the parking area rather. I contacted each of my officers 
who were on the entrances, and I did that while I was at the hospital. That 
was before the death of — or during the operation on Oswald, and while we 
still had the hospital secured by the squads, and I contacted the supervisors 
who were there, and after that I was told that an official investigation would 
be conducted, and I dropped it. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you say that it was about an hour? 

Captain Talbebt. No, sir ; I wouldn't estimate the time. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you contact Vaughn particularly? 

Captain Talbeet. Yes, sir ; I had contacted Vaughn. Then contacted him the 
next day. I found that Vaughn had let one man in onto the ramp that he 
hadn't included in his report the next day;. This man being a city employee, a — 
one who Vaughn thought was authorized to enter the ramp. He was Chenault, 
the mechanic in charge of the garage, so Chenault told Vaughn. This was 
not in Vaughn's report, but when Vaughn was broached with it, and this was 
on the 26th — I believe that could have been the 27th. Could you hold the 

Mr. HuBEBT. Well 

121 



Captain TtALBEBT. Let me just say that When Vaughn was broached with 
having described this one entry into the ramp, that was the day after his 
report had been written, and I had had a chance to review all the reports, 
I obtained a copy of all the oflBcers' reports and let them stand even though 
some of them were conflicting and deleting things — now, these were not the 
officers on the door, but the officers on the street. That some of them con- 
flicted about who told them to do what. But I didn't have them change them 
as I normally would, because of the Incident, and also because of the nature 
of the incident, and also because of my involvement in this. 

Mr. Hubert. Isn't it a fact that Vaughn had filed a report in which he failed 
to report that he had let Chenault go down the" ramp? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir ; Vaughn, in his report, did not note anything 
about anyone coming in the ramp other than squad cars and the paddy wagon. 
No pedestrian traffic denoted, but when I went over it with him in the presence 
of Chief Fisher and Sergeant Putnam, he recalled — Vaughn without our having 
to bring it to his attention. 

Mr. Hubert. He recalled Chenault? 

Captain Talbert. I'm sorry. He recalled CLenault without our having to 
bring it to his attention and inserted it in his verbal report, and that was 
after the written report, which was an oversight on his part. Chenault, may 
I add, was immediately evicted from the basement by Sergeant Putnam when 
he saw him come down the ramp. He had him leave. Chenault said that 
he needed to check the vehicles in the basement and to see if any of them needed 
to be in the garage, and Sergeant Putnam told him that he could do that later ; 
to leave the ramp area at that time, and he did. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. You mentioned the paddy wagon coming down the Main Street 
ramp. 

Captain Talbert. It is a fact that the paddy wagon did come in. However, 
each vehicle coming in was searched, and the paddy wagon was operated by 
an officer named Lewis. The front seat of the paddy wagon was searched 
and the back of the paddy wagon was searched 

Mr. HuBEasT. By whom? 

Captain TALBBSiT. Chief Fisher — before they let them into the ramp. By 
Sergeant Putnam, himself, as I recall. 

Mr. Hubert. You don't know of any record of how many paddy wagons or 
other vehicles came down Main Street ramp after Vaughn was posted and until 
the shooting? 

Captain Talbert. I recall three in the reports. I didn't see any of it — 
of them, but I recall three in the reports. One being a paddy wagon. One 
vehicle contained two detectives. Another vehicle operated by R. A. Watts, 
with a juvenile prisoner. Watts was not permitted to leave the station and 
the prisoner was booked, and he was retained to assist in the security. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, Captain Talbert, I am going to mark for identification 
an FBI report of an interview which yo^u made on November 24, 1963, Dallas, 
Tex., March 24, 1964, as Exhibit 5065, deposition of C. E. Talbert, and I have 
signed my name to it. It is a one page document. I am marking another 
document consisting of two pages. Placing upon it, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 
1964, Exhibit 5066, deposition of C. E. Talbert." I am signing my own name 
below that, all of which is on the first page of the document which is the FBI 
report by Special Agent Vincent Drain, dated November 25, 1963. It consists 
of two pages and I am placing my initial on the bottom right-hand corner on 
the second page. I also am marking for identification another document, 
being a copy of a letter apparently addressed by you, Capt. Cecil Talbert to 
Chief Curry, dated November 26, containing five pages. The first page I am 
marking as follows : "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5067, deposition 
of Capt. C. E. Talbert." And I am signing my name below that now, and I 
am placing my initials in the lower right-hand comer of each of the following 
pages. I am marking on a single page document purporting to be an B^I 
report made by Special Agents Logan and Bramblett, dated December 10, 
1963, by placing upon that document the words, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, 
Exhibit 5068, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert," and I have signed my name, 
and that document — that exhibit consists just of a single page. And finally 

122 



marking upon a report of an interview which you had with Special Agents 
Bramblett and Logan of the FBI, on December 12, the following : "Dallas, Tex., 
March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5069, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert," under which 
I am signing my name. Now, that document consists of eight pages, and I 
am marking the seven other pages with my initials on the lower right-hand 
corner, on each of the pages. Now, Captain, I ask you if you have had a chance 
to study and to read these vario'us documents? 

Captain Talbeet. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Let the record note, by the way, that Exhibit 5070, is the tour 
of the basement which has been previously identified and signed. In a moment 
I am going to ask you to identify and endorse your signature or initials below 
my signature or initials on each one of these pages of the various documents. In 
other words — in order to separate them, I direct your attention now to Exhibit 
5065, being the FBI report of November 24, 1963. As to each one of these docu- 
ments, I want to ask you this : Does that document correctly represent the 
truth and facts such as you know them? Has anything been deleted? Has 
anything been omitted? Do any facts stated need any modification or change of 
any sort whatsoever? 

Captain Talbert. You want me to read them again ; do you, sir? 

Mr. Hubert. Just enough to identify them. You have already studied them. 

Captain Talbert. The first document marked 

Mr. Hubert. 5065? 

Captain Talbert. 5065. In the last three and a half lines reading : "He said 
the press and other news agencies had set up for Oswald's transfer from the 
city jail to the county jail, and that day he did not feel the police department 
would want to cross the news agencies," and if those were my words it wouldn't 
be — it is probably a matter of semantics. Probably a matter of our conversation 
with the sheriff — after he conversed with me, I had a interview, a brief conversa- 
tion with Newsom concerning the fact that chief would contact him upon return- 
ing to city hall, and I do not recall that. I don't recall that. I don't refute it. 
I just don't recall it. Shall I initial it? 

Mr. Hubert. Please. If you will please sign your name under it. I understand, 
therefore, that you have no recollection of having said that you doubted that 
they were changing the plans because of any fear that they might have of 
crossing the press? 

Captain Talbert. Sure, it would be improper, and the — even an inference of a 
statement like that sort would be improper for a police captain to make, and 
those are not my words. 

Mr. Hubekt. Do you think you expressed any idea of the same nature, but in 
other words? 

Captain Talbert. Perhaps the time lapse, I can't recall, but, as I say, it may 
be a matter of semantics, and the way he understood it and what I had said. 
As I recall my conversation with him, it was rather diflSculi to get him back 
to the phone. I went through two or three people to get him to the phone, and 
as I recall about the conversation, it was rather brief and to the point, that I 
had contacted the chief and the chief would contact him when he got to the ofllce, 
which would be between 8 :30 and 9. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember discussing any possible change of plans at all 
with him? 

Captain Talbert. None. I discussed no change of plans with Mr. Newsom. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you discuss the possibility of a change of plans in the light 
of the new 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall mentioning, in any way, the concept, the basic 
concept of that sentence, that is, that the press would be considered whatsoever 
in the thinking about those plans for the transfer? 

Captain Talbert. In conversing with the sheriff, and our conversation either 
from the sheriff or from me, and I think probably from the sheriff, the subject 
arose that the chief had told the press that they could arrive at the city hall at 
10 o'clock, or thereabouts, the previous day, and that was with Sheriff Decker. 
Not with Mr. Newsom, as I recall it. Now, I have — several months have passed 
since — and my memory becomes vague on it, so, must have been — possibly maybe 

123 



a matter of semantics, maybe a matter of conversing, or conversation between 
Newsom and the sheriff of our having had this brief conversation. Now, the 
rest, when you ask if we had any conversation regarding a change of plan in the 
transferring, I answered you incorrectly and I don't recall discussing it with 
Newsom at all. I did discuss it with Sheriff Decker and said that the chief 
would contact him. Any discussion with him was very brief and that the chief 
would contact him about the transfer of Oswald when he arrived at the oflBce. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Have you any other comments to make concerning this 
document? 

Captain Talbebt. No, sir. 

Mr. HuBEET. Would you pass then on back to 5066, which also is an FBI 
statement. 

Captain Talbebt. Yes, sir ; on this document 5066, it indicates— and this too is 
a matter of semantics, I am thinking. It indicates that Ruby rushed in with 
newsmen. That — shall I read it and finish it? 

Mr. HUBEBT. Yes, put the part you read in quotes and end the quote and make 
your comments. Just start off with the word "quote" where you want to 
start. 

Captain Talbebt. "There were approximately 150 news reporters and televi- 
sion cameramen that " 

Closing the quote. The 150, in my opinion, mind, which is relatively fluid, by 
the way anybody will estimate a crowd, "150 including police ofl5cers, news media 
and television cameramen," approximately 150 in the basement. Now, not news 
media alone, and — " He stated in the rush to get down into the basement in 
which the loading ramp was located and Oswald was being brought down from 
the jail, it is highly possible that Jack Ruby may have been — walked down the 
ramp with the newsmen, unnoticed." 

That is, again, something that I couldn't — could not and would not have 
stated, because the newsmen were in the basement. There was no rush of 
newsmen into the basement. They were in the basement, and they had been 
in the basement some hour before Oswald was brought into the basement. 
I don't know how this was injected into this report, but it is incorrect, 

Mr. HuBEBT. All right, sir. Have you any other comments to make in regard 
to Exhibit 5066? 

Captain Talbebt. Yes, "According to Captain Talbert, now. Will Fritz was 
in charge about removing Oswald to the Dallas County Jail, and the attempted 
removal of the prisoner Oswald about 11 a.m." That was my opinion. Shouldn't 
that be inserted there? It was my opinion that Captain Fritz was in charge 
of the removal of Oswald from the city jail to the county jail. I had no prior 
information on it, and still have no information on it. 

Mr. Hxjbebt. Do you know what was the basis of your opinion? 

Captain Talbebt. The fact that he wanted him in his oflBce from the jail. He 
had taken him out of the jail on a "tempo," which is a temporary release from 
the jail to the CID bureau, or CID oflBce, is the fact that he had htm out of 
the jail at the time is what I based.it on. 

Mr. Hubebt. I see. All right, now, have you any further comments on 5066? 

Captain Talbebt. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I would ask you to sign your name below mine and initial 
these pages. Have you done that? 

Captain Talbebt. Yes. 

Mr. Hubebt. Now, pass then to 5067, and I will ask the same basic questions 
as to that document and its several pages. 

Captain Talbebt. 5067, is my report to the chief of police, and I have no 
exceptions on it. I read the report, and it is, in fact, similar to one that I 
had issued to the chief regarding the incident on the date of the 26th — 
November 26th. 

Mr. Hubert. You are initialing now each page below by initial, and you are 
signing your name to the first page below my signature? 

Captain Talbebt. All right, sir. 

Mr. Hubebt. Now, will you turn then to Exhibit 5068, and address yourself 
to the same basic questions thkt I asked you originally. 

Captain Talbebt. In Exhibit 5068, I have no exceptions whatsoever. 

124 



Mr. Hubert. Just sign your name below mine then. Finally that brings up 
to Exhibit 5069. Do you have any comments to make with reference to that 
document? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir ; on Exhibit 5069, in there — and again due to 
semantics or to my lack of ability to express myself, some corrections that need 
to be made on the first page of 5069. It indicates "Captain Talbert directed 
Lieutenant Pierce to call in 3 squads from their district assignments from 3 
different stations to take 4 individuals from the headquarters station." The 
word "individuals" should be squads. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you weren't talking about 4 people, but 4 squads? 

Captain Talbert. Four patrol squads. 

Mr. HuBBaiT. Which would constitute a number of people 

Captain Talbert. Which I had already directed him to get as many 2-man 
squads as possible. I do not have a copy of the details but I could get it. 

Mr. Hubert. No, that's all right. 

Captain Talbert. The actual number — and on to the next page of the same 
exhibit, he added at this time that there were no reserve oflBcers utilized in 
the basement of the police building, and that specific arrangements were made to 
inspect the vicinity of the basement. There were reserve oflBcers used in the 
police building. When it says "basement," — there were reserve oflScers used in 
the basement of the police building. This up here about the "CID," I mean the 
"detectives," rather than the "supervisor," that should be changed too, and 
"Pierce's car," also. 

Mr. Hubekt. Now, you are speaking of the fifth page of 

Captain Talbert. Let me initial that down there. 

Mr. Hubekt. Now, you were talking about something which appears on the 
fifth page of Exhibit 5069, in the top paragraph. Will you read the sentence, 
starting with the word "quote" and ending with the word "quote" and then 
comment upon the sentence? 

Captain Talbert. "Captain Talbert could also recall that upon arrival of the 
armored car, at the Commerce Street exit a plain car with three detectives were 
sent out the Main Street rampway so as to be in position in front of the armored 
car for the purpose of escort." The word "detective," should be changed to 
"three supervisors," "uniformed supervisors," and those men were Lieutenant 
Pierce and — it identifies them later, but they were uniformed supervisors, and 
this 5-minute element here, now, hold 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

(Disciission off the record.) 

Captain Talbert. On page 5, of the same exhibit, quote 

Mr. Hubert. First, top paragraph? 

Captain Talbert. The top paragraph quote, "Captain Talbert identified the 
occupants of this car as being Lieutenant Pierce, who was at that time driving, 
Sgt. J. A. Putnam who was in the right front seat, and Sgt. B. J. Maxey, he was 
in the left rear seat. He was later informed by Lieutenant Pierce that it was 
approximately 5 minutes prior to the shooting of Oswald that they had pro- 
ceeded from the basement, left the city hall." That this seems to indicate the 
time element from the vehicle leaving the basement, and the time that Oswald 
was shot was indicated to me as being 5 minutes. That was incorrect and I 
believe now that the indication was that it was approximately 5 minutes from 
the time Lieutenant Pierce had left the homicide oflSce until the time Oswald 
v/as shot. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, your recollection is now that what Pierce told 
you later was that 5 minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting and the 
time prior thereto, that he had left the CID oflUce? 

Captain Talbekt. That's it. 

Mr. Hubert. Whereas, the statement that you have just read and quoted 
would indicate that the 5 minutes was between the time of leaving the basement 
and the shooting? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And you think that it was a mistake, that you did not intend 
to convey that idea of what Pierce told you? 

Captain Talbert. That's quite correct. I didn't intend to convey that idea. 

125 



Mr. Hubert. That, in fact, is your recollection now of what Lieutenant Pierce 
told you? 

Captain Talbert. As I recall now. Lieutenant Pierce told me that from the 
time he left the basement until the time — and from the time he left the basement 
ramp and the time he reached the Commerce Street ramp, the shooting had oc- 
curred, and that time lapse would be a minute and three quarters, or 2 minutes 
at the most. 

Mr. HtTBERT. Do you recall whether Pierce ever talked to you about a 5-minute 
interval ? 

Captain Talbert. The 5-minute interval, I can't recall ; no, sir. I don't re- 
call that, but if we want to leave it in here it could have been from the time — 
it would have been right from the time he left the homicide oflBce until the 
time of the shooting. I don't recall the 5-minute interval. Now, at the time, 
it may have happened, but my memory now is — does not bring it back. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, your correction really 

Captain Talbert. Is incorrect? 

Mr. HuBEiRT. Is, in a way, incorrect, because you have corrected to refer to 
a 5-minute interval and you now tell me that you have no recollection of talking 
about a 5-minute lapse at all. 

Captain Talbe^it. Right, sir. I am merely trying to account for the minutes 
there in my own 

Mr. Hubert. But you do not recollect Pierce telling you anything about 5 
minutes at all? 

Captain Talbeet. I can recall the route he took and where he stopped, but I 
can't recall the 5 minutes entering into it at all, and 

Mr. HUBEaiT. All right ; any further corrections or observations? 

Captain Talbert. Rather a minute one on page 6. Let me get that. That is 
about passing out the pads. I don't — to get that identification — I don't think 
there is any point in answering that. 

On page 7, of the same exhibit and the first paragraph, "In regard to this 
particular assignment Captain Talbert advised that he was acting on his own 
behalf concerning the security measures and it wasn't on instructions by any 
particular superior as to what he was or was not to do. At no time prior to 
the transfer did Talbert receive specific instructions concerning the details of 
the transfer, and most of this information was obtained during the course of 
the miorning." 

In essence, that's true, but to understand the setup of the police function — I 
was the patrol commander on duty during that period and there was no necessity 
to give me instructions by anyone in — any superior or any of my superiors as 
to any incident that would require emergency action or restraintive action. 
The patrol function is for an emergency function, and to take care of the im- 
mediate diflBculties, or immediate trouble. So, it leaves the impression in that 
paragraph that someone was derelict in their not informing me prior to that 
morning, about not informing me of the course of the transfer and the other 
details, when actually, it wasn't necessary. And had Captain Souter or Captain 
Frazier been on duty I think they would have taken the same action. This is 
a patrol function. 

Mr. Hubert. As I understand it, your comment is that what you did was 
standard operating procedure? 

Captain TALBEaiT. Standard operating patrol function. If you find trouble 
arising, try to offset it. 

Mr. HuBEiRT. And that you would be expected to put into operation such 
standard operating procedure? 

Captain Talbert. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And that they would understand that you would take such 
procedures without any particular orders? 

Captain Talbert. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. That is the essence of your 

Captain Talbert. The essence of what I was trying to convey. And, second 
paragraph, same page, it refers, "Captain Talbert continues to say he has 
never worked for Jack Ruby in any way whatsoever, but did hear through 
rumors that an individual by the name of Cox was alleged to be a reserve 

126 



officer, was at one time employed by Jack Ruby." That statement arose from 
having read the newspapers in which Cox gave a statement to the newspaper, 
the newsmen, and said that he had worked for Jack Ruby. It was not of my 
knowledge. I didn't know Cox. We have no police sergeant — that is supposed 
to have been a Sergeant Cox, and we have no police sergeant named Cox. 

Mr. Hubert. As I understand your explanation, you do not deny that you 
made that statement, but the information you based the statement on you 
received from the newspapers and not from your ovm knowledge at all? 

Captain Talbert. True, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And do you have any knowledge on the point? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir ; I still don't know Cox. 

Mr. Hubert. Any other comments? 

Captain Talbert. And the fourth paragraph, same page. That is fourth 
paragraph, page 7, same exhibit. "In regard to any background information 
concerning Jack Ruby, Captain Talbert stated that he was never personally 
acquainted with Jack Ruby, and when he did see Jack Ruby, he could only 
recall that it was a familiar face. He related that he could not associate the 
name with the face, and was not aware that Ruby was a nightclub owner in 
Dallas * * *." I intended to convey that the face of Ruby did not associate 
itself in my mind with nightclubs in the Dallas area. Although, the name 
of Ruby associates itself with a reputation of Ruby by — as a nightclub operator 
in Dallas, quite vividly. I am quite familiar with his nightclubs by name, and 
associate the name with the unsavory background. 

Mr. Hubert. And that knowledge concerning Ruby, had you used it prior 
to the events of the 24th? 

Captain Talbert. Yes ; that knowledge existed prior to the events of the 24th, 
and were police records. And other police officers conveying their information 
to me as to activities around his club, I — around his sister's club out on Oak 
Lawn, the Vegas Club and the whole name of Ruby and Ruby's sister and their 
operation of their clubs was familiar to me. 

Mr. Hubert. I think you used the word "unsavory" in connection with him? 

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; I did. Can she hold this? 

Mr. Hubert. Well, I'd rather 

Captain Talbert. You can put it in later. 

Mr. HuBEiRT. All right. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Do you have any other things, other comments to 
make with reference to it? 

Captain Talbert. Not to that specific exhibit, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right ; will you then initial 

Captain Talbert. I think that is the final one. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether it was ever considered moving Ruby 
by use of the Main Street basement entrance? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I mean moving Oswald. 

Captain Talbert. No, sir ; I had no information on that and 

Mr. Hubert. You did not hear that discussed? 

Captain Talbert. I had — I never heard any rumors to that effect. Didn't 
hear it discussed and I never heard any rumor. 

Mr. Hubert. Is there anything else that you would like to say concerning any 
of the matters that we have discussed, Captain Talbert? 

Captain Talbert. Only say that with the explanation of how the basement 
has been secured, and my personal examination of the basement, I was of the 
opinion that no unauthorized person could enter that basement. 

Mr. Hubert. To what did you attribute the failure of the security? 

Captain Talbert. The final reason, or the official investigation is one that 
I can't refute, and I am sure you are familiar with it, that Officer Vaughn on 
the Main Street entrance stepped out to the curb as Lieutenant Pierce pulled the 
plain car out to put it in front of the armored car just prior to the shooting, 
and that is the route that Ruby said he took into the station, and it— as far as 
any investigation has been, that is the route he took. I can't 

Mr. Hubert. There is no positive evidence indicating any other route? 

127 



Captain Talbekt. No, sir; and, the only — hold it a minute. I want — there 
was an extra jwlice ofl5cer standing — still wanted in ? 

Mr. Hubert. Well, all right. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Hubert. Is there anything else you would like to add other than what 
we have talked about? 

Captain Talbert. My primary concern that morning was with the crowd con- 
trol, the mob control. Our warning had been against a possible larger group 
of people taking Ruby away from the officers. They had told the 

Mr. HuBEaiT. You mean Oswald? 

Captain Talbert. I'm sorry. Taking Oswald away from the officers. They 
had been told, the person who answered the phone in the FBI office, that he 
wanted the information transmitted to the police department that no police 
officers would be injured, and, of course, that was discounted as no police 
officer being injured by it, but nevertheless, the crowd action was highly prob- 
able, and our primary objective was to prevent, or control, crowd action. I had 
a total of three gas grenade kits and projectile kits in the basement, that is my 
own, and the officer's riot guns, if that becomes necessary, although, the crowd 
can be controlled by gas if we couldn't do it with brute force, we could do it 
with gas. But the event that did occur, where one person dashed out of a crowd 
and shot a person and literally laid down, said, "Here I am. I did it," in pride 
was rather stunning. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, captain, have you been interviewed by any member of 
the Commission other than the interview that you have had with me? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. As to the interview with me, now, there was one yesterday, 
I think that is about it, is that right? 

Captain Talbert. That's right. 

Mr. HtJBEBT. They — the one with you yesterday and this one has been the 
only interview? 

Captain Talbert. The only interview has been with you yesterday. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, is there anything that you can think of between the dep- 
osition you have given today and the interview we had, which is inconsistent 
with one another? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you, or did you provide any material or facts in any of 
the interviews which haven't been developed on the record? 

Captain Talbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Then one final thing ; is there anything else you wish 
to say? 

Captain Talbert. I don't think there is anything else I could say that would 
add materially to your investigation, sir. It is — if there were, I'd be delighted to 
do so. 

Mr. Hubert. If something should occur to you which has not been covered 
here or in any other report, I want you to feel free to contact us and tell 
us that you want to add what should be added. 

Captain Talbert. I would do so immediately. There is no one more con- 
cerned vdth finding out bow Ruby got in the basement to shoot Oswald than 
myself, so, I am with you. I would love to find out how he got there. 

Mr. Hubert. I certainly thank you, and on behalf of the Commission, I want 
to thank you for your cooperation and time. 



TESTIMONY OF CHARLES OLIVER ARNETT 

The testimony of Charles Oliver Arnett was taken at 8 p.m., on March 25, 
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and 
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the 
President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, 
was present. 

128 



Mr. Griffin. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff 
of the general counsel's office for the President's Commission on the Assassina- 
tion of President Kennedy. The Commission itself was set up under an Exec- 
utive order issued by President Johnson and congressional resolution passed 
by Congress. 

Pursuant to these official acts, the Commission itself has promulgated a set 
of rules of procedure, and under these rules of procedure I have been author- 
ized to come here and take your sworn deposition. Captain Arnett, I want to 
explain to you a little bit of the general nature of our inquiry here. We are 
concerned with the assassination of President Kennedy and the final death of 
Lee Harvey Oswald, and we have been empowered and requested by the Presi- 
dent to investigate all the facts and evaluate and then report this back to 
the President. 

We have asked you to come here because we believe that you may have some 
facts that might be pertinent, particularly to the death of Lee Oswald. How- 
ever, we are also concerned with the entire picture in the examination, and 
if there is anything that you think would be helpful to us, why, of course, we 
want to take that. Mr. Hubert and myself are not working on an intensive basis 
on the other aspects of things, outside of Ruby. So what I will do is ask 
you a few general things which might have some bearing upon the death of 
the President that would enable other people to look at it and see if you were 
somebody that might have information, and then we will get into the other 
problems. 

Now, the mechanics by which we asked you to come here by, the general 
counsel of the Commission sent a letter to Chief Curry indicating that we 
would like to talk to you and certain other iwlice officers. Actually, under the 
rules of the Commission you are entitled to have a written letter from the 
Commission, 3 days in advance of your testimony here, but the rules also 
provide that you can waive this notice. Before I swear you in, I would like 
to ask you if you are willing to waive the notice provision? 

Mr. Arnett. Oh, sure. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, you are also entitled to have an attorney, and I see that 
you don't have an attorney, and I take it that you don't want one. 

Mr. A-BNETT. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, do you have any questions you would like to ask me 
about the thing before I swear you in? 

Mr. Arnett. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that 
the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth? 

Mr. Abnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you give the court reporter your full name? 

Mr. Abnett. Charles Oliver Arnett. 

Mr. Griffin. And when were you born, Mr. Arnett? 

Mr. Abnett. September 6, 1911. 

Mr. Griffin. And where do you live now? 

Mr. Abnett. 1223 South Waverly Drive, Dallas, Tex. 

Mr. Gbiffin. And you are employed with the Dallas Police Department, is 
that right? 

Mr. Abnett. No. I am a captain on the reserve. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Now, will you explain what the difference is between the reserve 
and the police department? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes sir. Reserves were established about 10 or 11 years ago, 
to assist in, say, tornadoes or, you know, something that came up that they 
needed more help in to be trained on that. We don't draw any pay from the 
Dallas Police Department at all. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Who does pay you? 

Mr. Abnett. Nobody. 

Mr. Gbiffin. This is a completely voluntary thing on your part? 

Mr. Abnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. I take it you have a regular occupation on the side? 

Mr. Abnett. Yes, sir ; I drive a truck. 

129 



Mr. Griffin. And for whom do you work? 

Mr. Abnett. Certain-Teed Products Co. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that here in Dallas? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been with them? 

Mr. Arnett. Fourteen years. 

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been in the police reserve? 

Mr. Arnett. A little over 10 years. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, have you had any special training in connection with your 
duties in the police reserve? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir; went through school. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you tell us a little bit about that school? 

Mr. Ajinett. Well, when I was going through, we went on Friday night, I 
believe it takes 7l^ months, if I remember right, to complete the course. 

Mr. Griffin. How long ago was this that you went through the school? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, it's been a little over 10 years now. 

Mr. Griffin. And you went every Friday night? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. For how many hours a night? 

Mr. Arnett. Two hours. 

Mr. Griffin. And as a result you became an officer in the reserve? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, since you have been in the reserve, how frequently would 
you be called to duty? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I was a sergeant to start with. We had 2 nights a month, 
I believe it was, that we were assigned to be here. You could come more times 
than that if you had the opportunity. Then I made lieutenant, which put me over 
more men, and April 6, either 3 or 4 years ago, I was made captain, and I have, 
I believe 80 some odd men under my company B. I am captain over company B. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, after you go through the training school, do your men 
engage in regular training of any sort, with the police department? 

Mr. Arnett. Well they ride on the squads and observe what's going on and 
special things like Texas-Oklahoma football rally. We work in that. State 
Fair of Texas. Usually somebody assigned to that every night during the 
Fair, and such as the President's parade. There were, I believe say 30 some 
odd — 27 or 28, I believe it was, was assigned to that. Just things like that, 
or what we are assigned to, and then we have our regular nights that we ride 
squads, that we ride with squads or whatever 

Mr. Griffin. I see. How often are you assigned to ride squads? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, the patrolmen usually ride on their regular nights. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that once a week or once every 2 weeks? 

Mr. Arnett. Now, they are assigned twice a month, but if they have the 
time they usually come down once a week. 

Mr. Griffin. And for how long do they ride? 

Mr. Arnett. Oh, usually report around 7 or 7 :30 at night until 10 :30, 11 o'clock. 
Some of them ride longer than that, but that's the usual case. 

Mr. Griffin. Are they in uniform at that time when they ride? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do they receive any pay for that? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, are there any other training programs that these mei 
undergo once they have gone through the initial 7-month program? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, each fall they go out to the pistol range. I would say for 
four or five Saturdays, something like that. I might be off a week or something 
like that, but somewhere in that neighborhood, for training out there. 
Mr. Griffin. Anything else you can think of? 
Mr. Arnett. Well, right offhand, I don't believe there are. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, I want to mark these couple of documents here, and then 
we will talk about these [indicating]. 
Mr. Arnett. All right. 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to mark what is an interview that you had with two 
agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Mabey and Mr. Kenneth P. 

130 



Hughes, on December 4, 1963. I am going to mark that Dallas, Tex., C. O. 
Arnett, 3-2.5-64, Exhibit 5032. And the next document that I am going to mark 
is what purports to be a copy of a letter that you prepared — signed, rather, 
dated November 27, 1963, and addressed to Chief Curry, having to do with the 
events that you observed on November 24, 1963. I am going to mark that 
Dallas, Tex., C. O. Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5033. Now, I am going to hand 
these two exhibits to you. Captain Arnett, and I want to ask you if you have 
examined those. Have you had a chance to read them? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, are there any additions or corrections, changes that you 
want to make in those, after having had a chance to read them? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Tell us where they are and we will see if we can't 
do that. 

Mr. Arnett. Right here. "He was stationed at the door of Chief Curry's 
oflSce — " [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, this is on Exhibit 5032, and you are referring 
to the language in the second paragraph on the first page. You stated that 
you were stationed in the door of Chief Curry's oflSce. Go ahead. 

Mr. Arnett. I was stationed at Captain Fritz' oflBce. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Arnett. See, they have got it wrong. They have got it down Chief 
Curry, when it was Captain Fritz' office. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Would you take my pen, then, and make the change 
on there, and cross out what's wrong and make an entry nearby to indicate 
what's correct, and then initial it? 

Mr. Arnett. Just scratch out this? 

Mr. Griffin. I would say scratch out Chief Curry and write in Captain 
Fritz, if that's correct. 

Mr. Arnett. How do you spell Fritz? 

Mr. Griffin. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z. 

Mr. Arnett. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. Apostrophe s, I guess. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z-'-s. 

Mr. Arnett. All right. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you initial, put your initials by each one of those changes 
and put a date out there, 3-25-64. Are there any other corrections that you 
think ought to be made there? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't remember any right now. 

Mr. Griffin. Okay. Now, did you serve in connection with the President's 
parade? 

Mr. Arnett. Was I at the parade? 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any duties as a reserve ofl3cer in connection with 
President Kennedy's arrival? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you tell us what those duties were? 

Mr. Arnett. I was at large, but I worked between Harwood and St. Paul, on 
Main Street. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when were you first told that you would have some re- 
sponsibility in connection with the procession of the Pi-esident through Dallas? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, probably the day before. I am not going to say that for 
sure. I could be wrong a day or two, but I think it was the day before. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you have any men that you were responsible for 
supervising? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. How many men did you supervise on that particular day? 

Mr. Arnett. If I remember right, we had 27 or 28 reserves in the detail. 
We assigned them out of the assembly room to various locations up and down 
where the parade would be. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you attend any meeting prior to November 22, in which 
you got instructions as to what you were going to do in connection with tiie 
parade? 

131 



Mr. Arnett. No, sir ; other than the assembly room that morning, when we 
assigned the men out. 

Mr. GRIFB^N. Now, when you arrived at the police department on the morning 
of November 22, what time was it that you got there, do you remember? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, it seems like it was around 10 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, prior to 10 o'clock on November 22, had you received any 
instructions as to what your duties were going to be, in particular with respect 
to the parade? 

Mr. Arnett. Other than just work in the parade is all. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. When you arrived, who did you report to? 

Mr. Arnett. To the assembly room. And right offhand, now, I can't tell 
you who was in charge of the regular officers. At that time I knew, and it seems 

to me like it was Lieutenant I can't recall his name right now. Maybe 

I will think of it directly. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, that's all right. Was there a meeting of all the reserve 
officers in the assembly room? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you receive instructions at that time? 

Mr. Arnett. At that time they were each one assigned their location to work. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Arnett. And not to — if they was booing the President or not — you know, 
getting out of line or anything, not to bother anybody, but if you saw anybody 
that was — acted as though they was going to bodily harm — you know, injure 
body, well, to notify the police officer, regular officers, you know, of what was 
going on. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you recall who gave — you say this was the lieutenant 
that gave these instructions? 

Mr. Arnett. It was a lieutenant that assigned us out. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember who gave you these instructions that you are 
talking about? 

Mr. Arnett. It seems like it was Captain Lawrence, but I couldn't swear to 
that, but it's- 

Mr. Griffin. Did Captain Solomon have any responsibility in that regard? 

Mr. Arnett. It may have been Captain Solomon that gave us that. It was 
a captain, I am almost certain and I feel like — I know Captain Solomon was 
in the building, in the meeting with us, and it could have been him that gave 
us instructions. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. The instructions that were given, did they have 
to do with anything other than watching the crowd, were you instructed to 
watch any other places besides the crowd? 

Mr. Arnett. You mean any particular buildings? 

Mr. Griffin. Or just buildings generally ; were you instructed to watch 
the windows in buildings or watch the roofs or anything like that? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I wouldn't say that anything like that in particular was 
named, but it was, you know, to watch and see — keep the crowd back out of 
the street and see that nobody, you know, rushed out there against the Presi- 
dent's car. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, had you served in connection with other parades? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Any other Presidential or political parades like this? 

Mr. Arnett. At one time Vice President Nixon came to the opening of the 
Fair, and I was there for that. Some man walked up to me and told me 
that he would like to present a pair of boots to the Vice President. A Secret 
Service man, I suppose, was standing close enough that he heard what the 
man said to me, and he asked me what the man said, and I told him, and he 
said, "Certainly he can't give him a pair of boots. Get his name and address 
and if he wants to mail the Vice President a pair of boots he can later." 
That's all. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, the instructions that were given down in the assembly 
room, did they differ in any way from the instructions that would normally 
be given at any other parade that you worked in? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I wouldn't think so. 

132 



Mr. Griffin. I mean at other parades was it the custom to bring you into the 
assembly room or 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Then give instructions as to what you should do and what to 
watch out for? 

Mr. Arnett. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. Were any of the men under your supervision assigned to the 
area of the Texas School Book Depository? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know whether there were any men at all of the reserve 
officers assigned to the area of the Texas School Book Depository? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't recall any. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, the fact that you don't recall ; would you have been 
made aware of that? 

Mr. Arnett. I had a list of it. 

Mr. Griffin. You did. And did that list show the areas where they were 
assigned? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you still have a copy of that list? 

Mr. Arnett. Captain Solomon does. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, on this list did it show where each particular man was to 
stand, was to be placed? 

Mr. Arnett. They would either be on the west side of Harwood or they would 
be on the east side of Harwood, between block so-and-so ; Main the same way. 

Mr. Griffin. But would it show Charles O. Arnett, corner of Main and Har- 
wood? 

Mr. Arnett. I was working at large. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, would it show, if I were working there, would it show Burt 
W. Griffin, comer of Main and Harwood? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. What did you do when you heard that the President 
had been shot? 

Mr. Arnett. Had an aunt that was to be buried at 2 o'clock that afternoon, 
and the President's parade was later than it had been predictotl. and when it was 
over with, prior to the President's arrival at the — between Harwood and Pacific 
on Main, a young lady in her twenties, maybe 30 years old, came up to me and 
said, "There is some kids right down there that's got a gun and some toy hand- 
cuffs and a knife." I said, "Would you show them to me?" She said, "Well, I 
rather not." So I went and got Earl Sawyer, a police officer that was working 
the corner of Harwood and Main, and told him of it. He and I went back to 
the lady and he asked her. She said, "Oh, it's just a toy pistol." But some 
little girls there with us told us where they were, about where they were stand- 
ing, and we walked up to them, asked them about the gun and .stuff. They said 
the boy with the gun had walked off, but one of them give us a pair of handcuffs 
and a knife, and I taken him, and Sawyer went with me, and we carried him to 
the juvenile department up on the third floor. 

Mr. Griffin. Was that a real knife that the kid had? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. The gun turned out to be a blank, like they shoot — oh, 
at starting races or something like that, you know. When th.? parade was past 
us, one of these smaller boys that was in the group come up to me and asked me 
when his buddy would be turned loose. I said, "I don't know, son, but I will go 
up there with you to try to find out where he is." So we went up there on the 
third floor of the juvenile department. While I was in there someone rushed 
in and said, "The President has been shot." 

Mr. Griffin. Who was up there with you at that time in the juvenile depart- 
ment ; do you recall any of the officers that were there? 

Mr. Arnett. No; I believe Captain Martin — now. I could be wrong on the 
name, but he is over the juvenile department, or was. You know, the captain 
that they — that had the kid that we had carried up there. So I came back 

downstairs then and I saw two or three highway patrol, driver's license men 

. Mr. Griffin. Let me interrupt here just a second, give you a few names of 

133 



people who were in that department, juvenile department, and see if you recog- 
nize any of those as having been present. Was Detective Lowery there? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't remember him being. Now, he may have been. 

Mr. Griffin. OflBcer Goolsby there? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't recall him. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Detective Miller there? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I couldn't say, and I wouldn't say without telling you the 
truth. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes ; do you know L. D. Miller, Louis D. Miller? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't know whether I do or not. I do know Lowery, and I do 
know the officer 

Mr. Griffin. Lowery and Goolsby. How about the Officer Harrison? 

Mr. Arnett. Blackie Harrison? 

Mr. Griffin. Blackie Harrison? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know him? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Was he there at the time? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't recall him being there at the time. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did you go after you left the boy in the juvenile bureau? 

Mr. Arnett. That was when I carried the second boy up to see about his 
buddy? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. I went downstairs and on the street. As I say, I saw three or 
four Texas Highway Department driver's license men, and I said, "The Presi- 
dent has been shot." And they said, "Oh, Arnett, what size camera was he 
shooting?" They thought, you know, I was joking. So I went on and got in 
my car. By that time squads were going everywhere. 

Mr. Griffin. Was this your private car? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes ; went home to change clothes out of my uniform into civilian 
clothes, to go to my aunt's funeral. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, which way did you drive? 

Mr, Arnett. I believe I went down Young Street. I did. I went down Young 
Street to avoid all this traffic of squads and everything going 

Mr. Griffin. Young Street in what direction? 

Mr. Arnett. West. 

Mr. Griffin. Headed west? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. Over the Houston Street viaduct to Oak Cliff. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Does Young intersect Jackson any place? 

Mr. Arnett. Jackson runs along beside it. 

Mr. Griffin. Runs parallel to it. Did you go by the Greyhound Bus station? 

Mr. Arnett. Did I go by it? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. I would have been one block south of it. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what time would you estimate that it was that you went 
over the Houston Street viaduct? 

Mr. Arnett. I would say it was shortly before 1 o'clock, because I had to 
rush to get out of these clothes into other clothes to get to Grapevine, which 
is only 20 miles, something like that, to be there at 2 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you got across the Houston Street viaduct, is there 
a point where you come to Zangs Boulevard? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you go to Zangs? 

Mr. Arnett. I went Zangs to Jefferson. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you get to the corner of Zangs and Beckley at any point in 
your trip out there? 

Mr. Arnett. No. Beckley would have been a block east of where I was. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, you drove this route, did you see anything? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Of any importance to the Commission? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 



Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, I take it then you went on out to the funeral, 
or wherever you had to go? 

Mr. Arnett. I went on home. I had my police radio on. Before I arrived at 
my home I heard someone come in on the radio and say. "A police oflScer has 
been shot." And further, maybe a block or two, he says, "I believe he is dead." 
And I changed my clothes right quick and got in my car to go to Grapevine. I 
came back down Clarendon to the R. L. Thornton Expressway, taken R. L. 
Thornton Expressway to Highway 114 — well, it turns into Stemmons Expressway, 
you know, automatically. Highway 114, and I was listening all the time of this 
transaction of the police officer. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you listening on a police radio? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Okay. Let me ask you this, this is your own private car? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Does the police radio broadcast over a frequency that can be 
heard on ordinary radio receivers? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. What kind of special adaption do you have to have on your 
receiver to pick this up? 

Mr. Arnett. They call it a converter. It's hooked in with your radio. 

Mr. Griffin. Is this an FM converter ; do they broadcast on an FM frequency, 
do you know? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, seems to me like it used to be AM and you could pick it up 
then by having your radio fixed a certain way, but they quit that. You 
couldn't do it no more, so you had to buy this converter to go with your radio 
to get it. And I listened to the move from the library over in Oak Cliff to the 
Texas Theater, and was listening to it when they got him, but I was at Grapevine. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear the automobiles called in from the outlying dis- 
tricts over your radio, when you were listening to it ; did you hear any com- 
munications from the dispatcher or otherwise, calling police cars in from the 
outlying districts? 

Mr. Arnett. They were giving a description of the man that they had a 
description on, and then after the policeman was shot, Tippit, well, they was 
giving the description of it, and they first thought he was in the library over in 
Oak Cliff. Then they moved to a vacant house, then they moved to the Texas 
Theater. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, did you go back to the police station on Friday, 
after you heard that Tippit had been shot? 

Mr. Arnett. After the funeral, after my aunt's funeral was over, I came home, 
ate supper and went back in uniform, came back down here and worked on the 
third floor at the elevator. 

Mr. Griffin. What time would you estimate that you arrived at the third 
floor? 

Mr. Arnett. I would say 6 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, at the time that you arrived at the elevator, had there 
been a system set up for admitting people to the third floor — let's put it this 
way, excluding people from the third floor ? 

Mr. Arnett. That's what I started doing. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, was there anybody else doing that at the elevator before 
you arrived, before you got there? 

Mr. Arnett. I couldn't say whether there was anybody assigned there before 
I got there or not, but there was a Sergeant Ellis, I believe, and Sergeant Dugger, 
were there with me when I was working there. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Did you replace anybody? 

Mr. Arnett. Now, I am not going to say that I did or I didn't, because I 
couldn't tell you and be telling you the truth. 

Mr. Griffin. Who did you get your instructions from? 

Mr. Arnett. I believe it was Sergeant Ellis, I believe it was, now. 

Mr. Griffin. Is he a regular sergeant? 

Mr. Aenett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you ride on the elevator? 

135 
731-228 0—64— vol. XII 10 



Mr. Aknett. No, sir. I was in front of it, and as people got off they had to 
show their identification. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Did you recognize Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Arnett. Did I recognize him? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes ; I mean, did you know Jack Ruby up to this point? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. What kind of identification did you ask for when people got off 
of the elevator? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, if they was a press reporter, they had a press card, showing 
who they were, and they were from everywhere, coming in there. You would 
be surprised how far they had traveled that day. You know, I was — I didn't 
think about people being there that day. you know, from so far up. One man 
told me he was asleep in Chicago. They woke him up and told him the President 
had been killed, and he was there that night, I would say by 8 o'clock. There 
was one man in particular that I remember, that came up. He said he was a 
postal inspector. 

Mr. Griffin. Postal inspector? 

Mr. Arnett. He showed me his identification, said he would like to talk to 
Captain Fritz, that he had a key to the post oflice box down there that this 
fellow had, and he wanted to see if that key did fit it, or he had a key and he 
wanted to see if it would — was to that box. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how many of you were standing there at the third floor 
elevator, checking identification of people who got off the elevator? 

Mr. Arnett. I would say four. Two elevators. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do about people who came up, who said they 
came up to see somebody who was being questioned, or in connection with 
some other business other than being a photographer or 

Mr. Arnett. If the.v didn't have an identification of pressmen or ranger or 
lawmen of some kind, they were turned back. There were two Spanish men 
came up there who wanted to talk to some officer about a ticket, and we notified 
whatever officer they wanted to talk to about it, and told him to go downstairs 
and see them. 

Mr. Griffin. Suppose somebody had showed you a justice of the peace card, 
would you have admitted him? 

Mr. Arnett. A justice of the peace? 

Mr. Griffin. Suppose somebody had showed you a card that said he was an 
honorary deputy sheriff, or a courtesy card, some of the law enforcement agents 
give out, are you familiar with those? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Supjwse someone had showed you one of those, would you have 
let him in? 

Mr. Arnett. I wouldn't let anybody in who didn't have proper identification, 
without notifying one of these regular officers standing there. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you have considered this a proper identification? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't remember having that corae up. Now, there were two 
or three rangers there. One of them from Gainesville, Tex. I talked to him 
a little bit and the captain of the I'angers was there. I don't know where he 
was from. He might have been from Dallas. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any lawyers come up? 

Mr. Arnett. Lawyers? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. I don't remember any. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any newspaper people come up who didn't show 
you press cards who appeared to be newspaper people from the way they 
conducted themselves? 

Mr. Arnbttt. Two or three different times a news reporter would come up 
and show a press card and say, "I have got a friend with me that's just with 
me". I said he would just have to wait downstairs, and they did. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, you know, a number of police officers have stated that 
they .saw Jack Ruby up on the third floor on Friday evening. How do you 
imagine that Ruby could have got by? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't know. After I was there that afternoon or that night, I 

136 



would say. I wasn't in the afternoon, because I was at that funeral, but I 
don't believe Jack Ruby got up there after that time of night. I didn't see 
Jack Ruby the entire time of that thing, until he was in front of me in the 
basement, the 24th. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you have recognized him? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you remain at the elevator doors all of the time you 
were on duty on Friday? 

Mr. Arnett. Friday night? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. I would say I was there until around 11 o'clock that night. 

Mr. Griffin. After 11 o'clock what did you do? 

Mr. Arnett. I went home. 

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody replace you on those doors? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who that was? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you give him any instructions as to what he was to do in 
admitting people? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you come in on Saturday? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. What time did you come in on Saturday? 

Mr. Arnett. Around 2 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. And how late did you stay? 

Mr. Arnbttt. Until about 11. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you do the same sort of thing on Saturday? 

Mr. Arnett. That afternoon I didn't work in front of the elevators, but I 
did work over where the stairways are. There is a stairway that you can 
walk down. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. I worked there with an oflBcer. I believe his initials is L. M. 
Baker. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, there came a time Saturday night when you were sta- 
tioned by Captain Fritz' office? 

Mr. Arnett. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. About what time was that? 

Mr. Arnett. I would say around 7 or 8 o'clock that night. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you notice while you were there whether any news- 
paper people were going in to use the telephone in the homicide office? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir ; I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. You say you were stationed outside Captain Fritz' door. Do 
you mean that you were inside the homicide office? 

Mr. Arnett. No ; I was outside. 

Mr. Griffin. In other words, you were stationed outside of the homicide 
door? 

Mr. Arnett. In the hallway. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, that wasn't really the door to Captain Fritz' office? 

Mr. Arnett. No ; his office is back inside, but you had to go through that door 
to get to his office. 

Mr. Griffin. I wonder if it wouldn't be clearer if we even edited this other, 
instead of Captain Fritz, if we crossed that out and said to the door to the 
homicide office? 

Mr. Arnett. All right. Go ahead and write it in if you want to. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Let me mark it [indicating]. 

Mr. Arnett. That would sound more reasonable, sensible, anyway. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, would you initial those two places and date them where I 
marked them [indicating]? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. We got the date, is that all right? 

Mr. Griffin. That's okay. All right. Now, did you see newspapermen going 
in to use the telephone in other offices besides the homicide bureau? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, really I just tell you the truth, there were so many people 

137 



in there and out — what I mean, there was a crowd there, and as far as seeing 
what was going on in other oflices, I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did there come a time on Saturday night when you re- 
ceived some instructions from one of the other oflicers? 

Mr. Abnett. Did there? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you call Lieutenant Merrell sometime that night? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, about what time was that? 

Mr. Arnett. It seemed to me like it was around 9 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. And what did Lieutenant Merrell tell you? 

Mr. Arnett. That Captain Solomon had called him and asked to get a few 
reserves down there the next morning to help with the transfer. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, where was this told to you? 

Mr. Arnett. It was told to me there at the door, to call Lieutenant Merrell. 
I am trying to think where I went and called from. 

Mr. Griffin. Somebody came up to you at the homicide office 

Mr. Arnett. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. And said, "Call Lieutenant Merrell"? 

Mr. Arnett. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. Then you went and made a telephone call? 

Mr. Arnett. I believe I went in Chief Curry's — not in his office, now, but into 
the room where all the secretaries and everything are, and used the telephone. 
I am almost certain I did. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you call Merrell some place outside of the building or 

Mr. Arnett. He was at home. 

Mr. Griffin. He was at home. Is he a regular officer? 

Mr. Arnett. He is a reserve lieutenant. 

Mr. Griffin. He is a reserve lieutenant? 

Mr. Arnett. He is my assistant. 

Mr. Griffin. Then Merrell told you that you would have to have some men? 

Mr. Arnett. That they wanted some men, yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. So somebody apparently had called Merrell to tell him that, is 
that right? 

Mr. Arnett. Captain Solomon, I believe. 

Mr. Griffin. Captain Solomon had called Merrell. Now, did you attempt to 
locate some reserves that night? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. And did you attempt to locate reserves that were already in the 
police department building? 

Mr. Arnett. I called Lieutenant McCoy, who was on duty, riding in a squad 
car, put out a call for him to call me at the office, and he did, and I gave him 
those instructions, to call some of his men the next morning to be there. 

Mr. Griffin. And what time did you tell Lieutenant McCoy that the men 
should be there? 

Mr. Arnett. Nine o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, at this point did you have any understanding as to generally 
when Oswald would be moved ; did you have any idea generally when he would 
be moved? 

Mr. Arnb^tt. Chief Curry told the newsmen that if they were back by 10 o'clock 
they would be plenty early. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear Chief Curry tell them that? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Other than what you heard Chief Curry say, did you receive any 
other information? 

Mr. Arnett. Of what time it would be? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you have your conversations with Lieutenant Merrell 
and Lieutenant McCoy before or after Chief Curry made the announcement to 
the press? 

138 



Mr. Abnett. I would say it was probably a few minutes before I heard him 
say that. I could be wrong about it. I am trying to, you know, think whether 
it was or wasn't, but I am not certain about it. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Now, the call that you issued to Lieutenant McCoy, would that 
have gone through the dispatcher's oflSce? 
Mr. Abnett. For him to call me would — yes. 

Mr. Gbiffin. And they would have made a record of that, isn't that right? 
Mr. Abnett. It would have been recorded, but our conversation wouldn't have 
been. 

Mr. Gbiffin. If we were to look at that record, would that be the most accurate 
reflection of the approximate time that you had information concerning the 

transfer of Oswald ; in other words, is that the most accurate 

Mr. Abnett. It would be recorded all right. 

Mr. Gbiffin. My question is, we want to try to find out just exactly how soon 
people would have known that something was going to happen. 

Now, is that record, that would be in the dispatcher's office the most accurate 
or earliest record that would have been made of anything you did in connection 
with the information you received about the move, that Oswald was going to be 
moved the next day? 

Mr. Abnett. Well, it would show — you would have to first check and see what 
squad McCoy was riding, to get the number. 
Mr. Gbiffin. Yes. 
Mr. Abnett. You see? 

Mr. Gbiffin. It wouldn't go out to McCoy specifically? 

Mr. Abnett. No ; it would go to the squad he was riding with. His name 
wouldn't have been on there. 

Mr. Gbiffin. But now, would the dispatcher's statement over the radio, would 
that say number such-and-such call number such-and-such, or would it say 
number such-and-such call Captain Arnett? 

Mr. Abnett. No ; I believe it would have said call the office. I don't believe our 
names would have been mentioned on the air. 

Mr. Gbiffin. All right. Now, would there be a record of some kind that we 
could use to find out what number designated Lieutenant McCoy? 

Mr. Abnett. Well, there would be a work sheet, assignment sheet, of what 
squad he was riding in that night, the number of it. For instance, we will just 
say 243 or 242 or — I don't know what number it was now, but I am just saying 
those numbers, that it's possible he could have been in. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Well now, do you know how long records of that sort are retained 
by the police department? 
Mr. Abnett. I suppose they are kept for a long time. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Now, what time was it that you arrived at the Police and Courts 
Building the next day? 
Mr. Abnett. Nine o'clock a.m. 

Mr. Gbiffin. All right. How many men would you estimate that you con- 
tacted about this between the time that you got the word from Lieutenant 
Merrell and the time you arrived at 9 o'clock? 

Mr. Abnett. If I remember right, I called Lieutenant Merrell — I mean Lieu- 
tenant McCoy, and I saw Lieutenant Nicholson and told him to call some of his 
men. If I remember right, though, those are the only two people I contacted 
on it. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Now, would Lieutenant Merrell have had occasion to contact any 
other oflScers, to give instructions to men? 

Mr. Abnett. He could have called some of the sergeants and told them. 
Mr. Gbiffin. I see. Would there have been any other captains who would 
have given instructions similar to ones you gave? 

Mr. Abnett. Well, there are three more captains, but so far as I know there 
wasn't any contacted, unless it was Captain Crump and I didn't contact him. 
Mr. Gbiffin. All right. How many men did you attempt to get in that next 
morning? 

Mr. Abnett. I told them to have 8 or 9 to 10 men. 

Mr. Gbiffin. I see. Bach; each lieutenant? 

Mr. Abnett. No ; each one just get two or three men. We had 18. 

139 



Mr. Griffin. Had 18 all together? 

Mr. Arnett. Uh, huh. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you remember where you parked your car before you 
came in the building on Sunday morning? 

Mr. Abnett. I either put it in the parking station west of the city hall on 
Commerce Street or I parked it on the side street of Commerce. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember entering the building? 

Mr. Arnett. Do I remember entering the building? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember what entrance you came through? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. Down in the basement, from Commerce Street. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, as you walked down that Commerce Street entrance, at 
that time were there any TV cables strung through there? 

Mr. Arnett. The cameras were set up on the Commerce side, out there, and I 
do believe that there were cables running through the door. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, there is one door there that enters into the hallway that 
runs to the records room, as you get down the bottom of the steps from Commerce 
Street, you open up the door and you can go down a hallway toward the records 
room? 

Mr. Arnett. Down that way [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Going north? 

Mr. Arnett. Uh, huh. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, there are also in there, at the bottom of those steps from 
the street, two other doors; do you recall that there are two other doors there? 

Mr. Arnett. They would be on Harwood Street, then? 

Mr. Griffin. No. 

Mr. Arnett. You mean there are two more doors on Commerce Street? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. One of them leads to the engine room. Are you familiar 
with that door? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Another one leads into the subbasement. Are you familiar 
with that door? 

Mr. Abneti'. Now, that's the one I am talking about I came in. 

Mr. Griffin. You went down into the subbasement? 

Mr. Arnett. See here, this is Commerce Street, and you walk down a flight 
of steps, and there is a door, and you are going right towards the records 
building. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, there is a subbasement to that building? 

Mr. Arnett. No ; I misunderstand what you are talking about. 

Mr. Griffin. Are you familiar with the subbasement in the — where the police 
officers' locker room is? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes. Oh, yes. If that's what you are talking about. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Were you aware of the fact that there was a door 
that led up from the subbasement right up under the stairs, on the Commerce 
Street side? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't know whether I understand what you mean or not. 

Mr. Griffin. You walk oflf of the sidewalk on Commerce Street 

Mr. Arnett. And go down in the basement. 

Mr. Griffin. And go down in the basement, you get down there in the base- 
ment and there is a door that goes into the hallway that runs up to the records 
room? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, there are two other doors in that area. One of them is, 
if I am not mistaken, oflf to the right, as you face the hallway, and that goes into 
the engine room ; and there is another area — door, rather, sort of at your back, 
as you look down that hallway, and that goes down in the subbasement. Wer'e 
you aware of that? 

Mr. Arnett. No. 

Mr. Griffin. So you would have no recollection of whether any of the TV 
wires were strung any place except through the hallway to the records room? 

Mr. Arnett. No ; I sure wouldn't. 

140 



Mr. Griffin. Okay. Now, when you entered there, where did you go — and 
got inside the building? 

Mr. Arnett. I saw Lieutenant Wiggins, and he asked me if I could replace 
one of his regular men tJiat was out there behind the, TV cameras that — in other 
words, this is the ba.sement [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, I think I can help you out here. Here is a diagram of 
the basement, and here is the jail office and here is the parking area, here is 
the ramp from Main Street, here is the ramp going up to Commerce Street 
[indicating]. 

Mr. Arnett. We have got it turned right around to me. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, whichever way is easiest for you. All right. Now, this 
is coming down from Main. That's Main [indicating]. 

Mr. Arnett. This is Commerce going out? 

Mr. Griffin. That's right. 

Mr. Arnett. All right. The TV cameras were set up right in here. They 
wanted to keep this open here. They didn't want any cars parking in here 
[indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me draw two TV cameras ; is that about where they were 
placed, where I have got them there [indicating] ? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, behind the TV cameras 

Mr. Arnett. It's wide enough for two automobiles to park. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Was there a man stationed behind those two TV 
cameras? 

Mr. Arnett. There was a regular and they needed him out there, so I put 
a reserve oflBcer out there. 

Mr. Griffin. Who was that reserve oflBcer that you put there? 

Mr. Arnett. Worley. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, I am going to put an X — well, you put an X 
on the map whe,re you think Worley was, and write his name in there, if you will, 
please. 

Mr. Arnett. [Si^elling] W-o 

Mr. Griffin. [Spelling] W-o-r-l-e-y. 

Now, what's your best estimate of what time it was that you put Worley in 
there? 

Mr. Arnett. Shortly after 9 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. You want to say whatever it was, 9 :15, whatever you think it 
was? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, this may not be exact on the minute, but it will be within 
5 minutes or so [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Okay. 

Mr. Arnett. I am going to put 9 :10 [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Arnett. Because I did it as quick as I could after I was asked to. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, what did you do after you placed Worley 
at that spot? 

Mr. Arnett. I went into the assembly room, and there were a few men in 
there. I walked back outside and I believe tliat I talked to some captain that 
needed five men down at the Elm-Houston Street viaduct, and I went back in and 
asked them if they could send five men down there and they said yes. They 
assigned five men to go down there and they were sent down there in a squad 
car. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after that? 

Mr. Arnett. After that, I got some more men out of the assembly room. 
They were just coming in, you know, and Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Putnam, 
we searched the basement. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, did you acc(mipany Sergeant Dean? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you accompany him all the way around? 

Mr. Arnett. In this area, I did [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. That's the area, sort of the Main Street portion? 

Mr. Arnett. That's it (indicating). 

141 



Mr. Griffin. Did you go with Sergeant Dean to the area that's marlced on 
the map stairs up, behind elevators No. 1 and No. 2. 

Mr. Arnett. Did I go up the stairs? 

Mr. Griffin. No. Did you go to that area with him? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, this is the area I covered with him, from here, all this 
right in here [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. The reporter can't see that, but you are indicating — we have 
to get this down in words, so that the members of the Commission, Chief Ju.stice 
Warren and so forth will understand what we ar'e talking about here. 

Mr. Arnett. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. You are indicating that you searched with Sergeant Dean that 
portion of the garage which includes tlie elevators No. 1 and No. 2 and the door- 
way to the stair up, correct? 

Mr. Arnett. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you got to those elevators, what did you and Sergeant 
Dean do? 

Mr. Arnett. As we searched them out, we placed men in this area as we 
searched it out, there was a regular oflScer stationed here [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Regular officer stationed 

Mr. Arnett. At the elevators [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. You want to put on the map where that regular oflScer was, 
and put an X there? 

Mr. Arnett. It was here in front of these elevators [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you want to write regular oflScer — do you know his name? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir; I don't. [Spelling] R-e 

Mr. Griffin. Regular, yes. All right. Now, were these elevators operating, 
these elevators No. 1 and No. 2, were they in operation? 

Mr. Arnett. I couldn't say whether they were or not. They wasn't working 
at the time I was there. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. You didn't see any boys, Negro boys in there? 

Mr. Arnett. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Is there a door at this entranceway to the stairs up? 

Mr. Arnett. Did you say are there a door there? 

Mr. GriffIn. Is there a door there ; do you remember if there is a door there? 

Mr. Arnett. There is a door here that goes into this [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Into the first aid station? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. But now, I couldn't say whether there are or not. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Do you recall what investigation was made in the 
area of that doorway there, toward the stairs up? What check you and Sergeant 
Dean made? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, they probably were finishing their investigation here and 
we were back over here. There is a building extends out from the walls, and 
it doesn't go completely back against this ramp. There is room for a man to 
walk in there, and I went and goi a flashlight and 

Mr. Griffin. Now, I want to talk about this area right here. Do you recall 
whether you and Sergeant Dean went over to that doorway that leads to the 
stairs up? 

Mr. Arnett. I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. You didn't go? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. GriffIn. Right. Did you go to that area where the first-aid station is? 

Mr. Arnett. I didn't make that part of the search there. We started and 
came around this way, searched all these cars down through here, and this 
building l)ack here that I am telling you about, that doesn't extend against the 

wall. I went and got a flashlight and Sergeant I will think of his name 

in a minute, reserve. His name starts with a H. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, that's okay. His name isn't necessary. You went back 
there searched the 

Mr. Arnett. We taken a flashlight in there and I held the flashlight for him, 
and he got up in there and I give him the flashlight, and he taken the flashlight 
and walked all back in here. There was room for a man to walk in there 
[indicating]. 

14Q 



Mr. Griffin. The area you are indicating is an area behind the jail oflBce 

Mr. Arnett. No ; it's not behind it. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, here is the jail office [indicating]. 

Mr. Arnett. Well, the one I am talking about, here is the ramp, see, and the 
one I am talking about is like this, doesn't go completely against the ramp. 
There is room for a man to walk in behind there [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, other than this northern portion of the basement, did 
you search any other area with Sergeant Dean? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir ; I stayed right in here. Some more reserves came in 
[indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Griffin. Could you tell me where I was? 

(The record was here read by the reporter. ) 

Mr. Griffin. After you searched the basement, where did you go? 

Mr. Arnett. After I searched this portion of the basement [indicating] ? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. I stayed right here. That's where the cars come in and out 
[indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, would you place an A where you stationed yourself after 
the search of the basement, and would you put a circle around that : would you 
write around that, after search of basement [indicating] ? 

Mr. Arnett. [Spelling] B-a-s-p 

Mr. Griffin. [Spelling] B-a-s-e-m-e-n-t. Now, captain, how long did you 
remain there at that position? 

Mr. Arnett. Oh, it seems like 10 or 15 minutes. 

Mr. Griffin. And then where did you go? 

Mr. Arnett. J. C. Hunt took my place, another reserve oflBcer. 

Mr. Griffin. Replaced by J. C. Hunt? 

Mr. Arnett. Hunt. 

Mr. Griffin. After about 15 minutes. Now, then where did you go? 

Mr. Arneit. I had sent some men outside 

Mr. Griffin. No ; where did you go? 

Mr. Arnett. I went to different ones that were, you know, around in here, of 
the reserves [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. You circulated in the basement? 

Mr. Arnett. In the basement. 

Mr. Gmffin. And did you make assignments? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. WTiat assignments did you make? 

Mr. Arnett. I sent Sergeant Cox and Sergeant this little sergeant that 

I was trying to name while ago — Could I call the man and ask him that boy's 
name? 

Mr. Griffin. That's not really important. 

Mr. Arnett. It isn't? 

Mr. Griffin. No ; did you assign people outside of the building? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you make assignments to the various intersections? 

Mr. Arnett. To keep people back. They were over here on the Commerce 
south-side street. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arnett. Keep people back off, on the sidewalk, and not let them on the 
street [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. You sent all your men to Commerce? 

Mr. Arnett. No ; not all of them. I sent three men up there at that particular 
time. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did you send your other men? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, earlier, before this, I sent one to Commerce and Pearl 
to work a signal light that had gone out of order. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever assign anybody to Main and Pearl? 

Mr. Arnett. Main and Pearl? 

Mr. Gbiffin. Yes, sir. 

143 



Mr. Arnett. I don't believe so. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever assign anybody to Elm and Pearl? 

Mr. Arnett. Not before the shooting. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Did you make any assignments on Elm Street? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Did you make any assignment on Main Street? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't remember of any. I did have a man in front of the 
Credit Building — what do they call it, the Employees Credit Association or 
Credit Union or something another. I did have a man up on the ramp of it. 
That's out on Commerce Street. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you assign Mr. Newman to a place in the basement? 

Mr. Arnett. I didn't make the assignment myself. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you leave the basement at any time after this particu- 
lar period that we are talking about, when you made these assignments, did 
you leave the basement area? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't believe so. Not until after the shooting. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. While you were in the basement, were you in the 
garage and ramp area the entire time? 

Mr. Arnett. After I left this particular spot here [indicating] ? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes; where we marked the A? 

Mr. Arnett. I was in this area right in here, and about 11 :05 I took my 
stand right in here [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, you spent your entire time then in the 

Mr. Arnett. Easement. 

Mr. Griffin. Area between the entrance to the garage at the bottom of the 
Commerce Street ramp and the portion where the Main Street ramp narrows 
at the bottom, or widens out at the bottom ? 

Mr. Arnett. [No response.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now, would you put a mark on the map where you were, where 
you stationed yourself at about 11 :05? 

Mr. Arnett. Let's see if we understand each other here on this. Is this 
the oflice where they come out of the jail [indicating] ? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, it is. 

Mr. Arnett. And this comes out so far and then this is the ramp [indicating] ? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, it is. 

Mr. Arnett. All right. I was right along in here then [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you put an A there, also? 

Mr. Arnett. Okay [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. And put a circle around that. 

Mr. Abnett. All right [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, would you mark the time that you think you first arrived 
there? 

Mr. Arnett. I would say 11 :05. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. How do you fix that time 11 :05? 

Mr. Arnett. I believe I looked at my watch. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you write up a report on this on November 24? 

Mr. Arnett. Did I write it up? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. I made the statement. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you write a letter to Chief Curry? 

Mr. Aknett. Well, that's the letter [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, you didn't mention in that letter anything about 11 :05. 
Was the first time that you thought about 11 :0."> when you were interviewed by 
the FBI agents on December 4? 

Mr. Arnett. You mean was that the first time I thought about it being 11 :05 
when I went there? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. Well, no ; I wouldn't say it was the first time I thought about 
it. It might have been that I didn't think about it when I was writing that 
letter. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, captain, if you were to place the time that you stationed 

144 



yourself here, in terms of how much before — well, in terms of the time that 
the armored car was in the ramp, did you place yourself before or 

Mr. Abnett. It was here before I went there. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. This was after the armored car arrived? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. And how long before Lee Oswald was brought down? 

Mr. Arnett. After I placed myself over there? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. Well, around 15 minutes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know what time Oswald was brought down? 

Mr. Arnett. I know what time the ambulance was called. 

Mr. Griffin. What time was that? 

Mr. Abnett. 11 :21. 

Mr. Griffin. When you stationed yourself at that point, were the floodlights 
from the TV cameras on? 

Mr. Arnett. Were they on? 

Mr. Gbiffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. If I remember right, they had been on all the time. 

Mr. Gbiffin. They had been on all the time? 

Mr. Arnett. They wasn't alive all the time. 

Mr. Griffin. You mean the cameras weren't alive? 

Mr. Abnett. No. 

Mr. Gbiffin. At the time you searched the basement, were the floodlights 
on from those TV cameras? 

Mr. Arnett. Well now, whether they were on or not, I don't know. I be- 
lieve the machine was lighted up. Now, whether that's what you call 

Mr. Griffin. No; I mean the floodlights. 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I am not going to say either way on that, because I am 
not going to tell you anything I don't think is the truth. 

Mr. Griffin. Are you sure the floodlights were on when you stationed your- 
self at the point that we have marked as point A at the bottom of the ramp? 

Mr. Arnett. I would say lights were on. Now, whether they were flood- 
lights or not, I couldn't tell you. I don't know whether you say just a light 
fitting there was a floodlight or the lights in the camera or 

Mr. Griffin. No ; I am talking about the lights they use to illuminate the 
picture they are going to take, throw dut on the subject? 

Mr. Abnett. I will say the cameras had a light in them. I will say that. 
Now, whether you call them floodlights or not, I don't know. Now, they tell 
me that they can be on and not be taking pictures unless there is a red light 
burning. Now, whether that's true or not, I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Over where these TV cameras are. were there some 
lights placed in association with those cameras? 

Mr. Arnett. All I can remember of, and I am trying to tell you the truth 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. Is that the light was on in the camera. You know what I 
mean, that [indicating] was burning. 

Mr. Griffin. I don't know if you have taken home movies or anything like 
that, or just had your picture taken in a photographer's studio, often they 
beam a lot of lights down? 

Mr. Abnett. I know what you are talking about there. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there any lights like that over by these TV cameras? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't remember any like that, but they had to be for it to 
be alive, I guess, but I don't remember them being on when this happened. 

Mr. Griffin. Before Oswald came out you were where we put this A at 
the bottom of the ramp, when you had occasion to look off into the garage 
area, was it possible to distinguish objects, or distinguish people or cars in 
there? 

Mr. Arnett. There was a car came out the ramp, after we got in line, and 
went out the ramp on North Main, up the ramp, out on North Main. We 
broke up 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to ask you this simple question, as you looked out 

145 



over in there, could you see cars or people or anything over behind those TV 
cameras ; could yoli see anything beyond those TV cameras? 

Mr. Abnett. Well, I saw this car that was coming out. Now, that was 
before Lee Oswald was brought down. 

Mr. Griffin. But did you see that car before it came out of the garage? 

Mr. Arnett. I saw it coming out of the ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, did you see it before it came to the ramp? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't believe I did. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. So do you have any recollection as to whether you 
could see objects in that area? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir ; I don't, I sure don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, you watched that car come out of the garage? 

Mr. Arnett. Uh huh. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, where did you watch it go? 

Mr. Arnett. It went out the Main Street entrance, up the ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. And did you see it get to the top of the ramp? 

Mr. Arnett. I didn't look at it as it entered the top of the ramp. We were 
getting back into position, blit we did have to break up, because we were all 
the way across the ramp, and we had to break up for it to go out, but you 
know how you would do, you would back up against the wall or something out 
of the way, for it to go by. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, you say you had to break up. Was there a line formed 
across there before the car came out? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, we were standing just, you know, side of one another all 
the way across there. 

Mr. Griffin. Was that Sam Pierce's car? 

Mr. Arn'ett. They say it was. 

Mr. Griffin. They say it was. Do you remember how many i)eople were 
in that car? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Was this the last car that came out of the garage before Lee 
Oswald was shot? 

Mr. Arnett. There was one come out and backed "up in position. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes ; but was that the last one that went up the Main Street 
ramp? 

Mr. Arnett. I said there was two cars to start with, and some of them said 
there wasn't but one, and I said I guess there was just one, but I thought at 
that time I remembered two cars going out, but I am not going to swear that 
there were, because I could be wrong about that. 

Mr. Griffin. I know that, but I want to know just what you remember 
and whatever your recollection is. Then we will try to see how good it really 
is. But what do you think you saw when this car — you say you think you saw 
two cars go up the ramp? 

Mr. Arnett. I think so. That's my honest opinion about it. 

Mr. Griffin. That's what I want. Now, when you saw that first car go 
up the ramp, how long would you say after the first car went up did the second 
car go up? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, it wasn't very long. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, did you watch that first car go up the ramp? 

Mr. A.RNETT. No, sir; I did not. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, as you were standing here where we have marked the A 
and as you looked over toward the armored car, did you have occasion to 
look over at that armored car? 

Mr. Arnett. It was straight in front of me. 

Mr. Griffin. That was up near the top of the Commerce Street ramp, 
wasn't it? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir ; or just inside. I don't believe it was all the way under 
the shed. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Chief Batchelor up there? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Captain Butler up there? 

Mr. Arnett. Captain Butler? 

146 



Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Abnett. I don't remember Captain Butler. 

Mr. Griffin. How about Sergeant Dean, did you see him up in that area? 

Mr. Arnett. Sergeant Dean. I believe I did. There was a bottle fell out 
of it. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you see the bottle fall out? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Could you actually see the bottle from where you were standing? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you had occasion to look up the Main Street ramp 

Mr. Arnett. Well now, my back was to the Main Street ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. Not the entire time ; there were times when you looked up that 
ramp too, wasn't there? You were down there for quite awhile? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I don't remember just, you know, turning around and look- 
ing back up that way. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember whether or not there was an oflScer stationed 
up there? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir ; there was. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see him up there ? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Did you know who he was? 

Mr. Abnett. No, sir ; he was a regular oflBcer, though. 

Mr. Griffin. How did you know that? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, a regular oflScer patrolman has a green patch on his 
shoulder up here. A reserve oflScer has a white patch ; a radio accident in- 
vestigator has a red patch. I believe traffic wears a brown. He was a regular 
patrolman. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you see him before he got up to the top of that ramp? 

Mr. Abnett. Did I see him before he got up there? 

Mr. Gbiffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. You mean did I see him going up there? Now, I may have seen 
him in the basement, before he was sent up there. I don't know about that. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you have remembered him, though ; do you remember 
seeing him in the basement before he was sent up? 

Mr. Abnett. Not that I recall ; no sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember seeing him walk up the ramp? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. So from where you were standing, I take it you could see the 
green patch on his 

Mr. Arnett. Uh-huh. 

Mr. Griffin. Coat. And you wear glasses, don't you? 

Mr. Abnett. Not all the time. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Were you wearing glasses that time? 

Mr. Abnett. No, sir; I use them mostly to read with or some work like this 
[indicating]. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Now, is your eyesight without glasses 20-20? 

Mr. Abnett. No, sir ; if they was I wouldn't be wearing glasses. 

Mr. Gbiffin. But you still tell me 

Mr. Abnett. I see off at a distance good, but I can't see to read a newspaper 
or something, a fine print or something close to me, but off at a distance — I 
drive without glasses. 

Mr. Griffin. You and I are sitting here maybe 6 or 8 feet away. Take off 
your glasses. Do you have any trouble seeing me [indicating] ? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir; not a bit. Where I have my trouble is fine print and 
something like that [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Take your glasses off a second. 

Mr. Arnett. Okay [complying]. 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to hold up something here, and do you see a colored 
spot on there [indicating] ? 

Mr. Abnett. I see a red one. 

Mr. Gbiffin. And I am holding this dictaphone package, about 10 feet away 
from you, aren't I [indicating] ? 

147 



Mr. Abnett. I would say something like that. 

Mr. Griffin. And how many red si)ots do you see on there? 

Mr. Arnett. I only see one. 

Mr. Griffin. One big one? 

Mr. Arnett. Well 

Mr. Griffin. Or one blurred one? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't know what you call a big one. It's about like my little 
finger, end of it [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you tell what sort of shape it is? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Does it look like a triangle or an arrow? 

Mr. Arnett. It looks like it goes up to a point and comes down to a point and 
goes straight across the bottom [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me state for the record that is pretty good for a man 
born in 1911. This thing that I am holding up is a red arrow which appears 
on the back of a Dictaphone belt holder, and this arrow, the stem part of the 
arrow is not more than a quarter of an inch long. The pointed part of the 
arrow is unquestionably the most prominent part of it. 

I am going to ask you to hold it up and I am going to stand back here and 
I will tell you that I have got my glasses on, but I am not corrected at 20-20 
vision. If I didn't know how that came up I would have some difficulty telling 
what that is [indicating]. 

Mr. Arnett. Is that right? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes; I think that's pretty good. So you could see this man's 
green patch on his 

Mr. Arnett. That's right. He was a patrolman. 

Mr. Griffin. Well now, did you ever have occasion to look up that ramp? 
How many times did you have occasion to look up that ramp? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, it's like I say, I don't remember just turning around and, 
you know, just looking up the ramp, but maybe walking into this place to get 
into position or something or other, I was facing that way. 

Mr. Griffin. Sort of looking around generally up there ; I mean as you walked 
around in this area we have marked "A," did you from time to time glance up 
in this general direction? 

Mr. Arnett. From where you marked "A," I couldn't see from there. You 
are talking about this "A" here [indicating] ? 

Mr. Griffin. No ; I am talking about this "A" here at the bottom of the ramp 
[indicating]. 

Mr. Arnett. Oh, yes. I could from there. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you glance up from time to time? 

Mr. Arnett. I won't say I did, because I don't remember whether I did or 
didn't. More than likely I did. 

Mr. Griffin. Now; did you glance back at the TV cameras from time to 
time? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I would say I did ; yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, after this second car moved out, did you have occasion to 
glance over at the TV cameras at any time, toward the TV cameras at any time? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I would say, just right offhand, I would say I looked around, 
but as far as just watching the TV cameras, I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you observe what any other officers were doing in your 
area on that side of the ramp? 

Mr. Aenett. There was a man to the side of me, to my right, that was in 
civilian clotlies, and was a news reporter that had a microphone in his hand. 

Mr. Griffin. Was he to your right or was he in front of you? 

Mr. Arnett. He was to my right. 

Mr. Griffin. Directly to your right. Now, where was Officer Harrison? 

Mr. Arnett. Right in front of me and a little to my left. In other words, 
we were standing facing this direction and Officer Harrison was more or less 
like this. I was looking over his right shoulder [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. You were looking over his right shoulder. Were you pressed 
right up against him at the time Lee Oswald moved out? 

148 



Mr. Arnett. I wouldn't say I was pressed against him. I was directly — 
you know, next to him. 

Mr. Griffin. Was there anybody behind you? 

Mr. Arnett. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to state for the record that we have here a Mr. 
Robert Davis with the attorney general's office with the State of Texas, who has 
been sitting in on these hearings, and he just walked into the room, and I am 
holding up, at about the same distance that I held this thing from Captain 
Arnett — is that right, Captain Arnett [indicating] ? 

Mr. Arnett. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. I am holding this about the same distance from Mr. Davis, 
and I am asking him if he sees any colored items on the back of this Dictaphone 
card that I am holding up [indicating] ? 

Mr. Davis. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. How many colored things do you see? 

Mr. Davis. Six. 

Mr. Griffin. He has got better 

Mr. Davis. Five dots and a colored arrow. 

Mr. Griffin. No^v, as far as this arrow was concerned, how would you 
describe that arrow ; can you see the stem on the arrow? 

Mr. Davis. See what? 

Mr. Griffin. Stem on the arrow. 

Mr. Davis. Yes ; it's fat, kind of heavy, bulky stem on the arrow. Looks 
more like a house turned on its side than its does an arrow. 

Mr. Griffin. Have you got 20-20 vision? 

Mr. Davis. (Nods head.) 

Mr. Griffin. You don't wear glasses? 

Mr. Davis. No. 

Mr. Geiffin. The record should reflect he did a better job than you. 

Let me ask you this. Captain Arnett: I am going to ask you to step to the 
back of the room over there. 

Mr. Arnett. Back where? 

Mr. Griffin. Step over to the doorway there. 

Mr. Arnett. Okay. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, take your glasses off. You didn't have them on. I am 
going to hold up a card here, and can you see the colors on that card? 

Mr. Arnett. I see green and white [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. See any other colors [indicating] ? 

Mr. Arnett. There is a little lighter up at the top of it. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you tell me whether you see any objects on there or 
whether you see a circle or a band or something exact or what do you see on 
there [indicating] ? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, to that end I see something light running up and down, 
in the upper part of it, just a portion of it is a lighter — kind of a blue color. 
Then it's a green, then down closer to your thumb it's white [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, let me state for the record that what I held up was a 
Mobil gas credit card, which has in the top half of it a band that has a blue 
background on it, and against that blue background there is a picture of a 
Mobil gas station, which is white, and some background scenery which runs 
behind the Mobil station in some sort of a band, which is green, looks like grass 
and trees, and just above the blue field there is a completely white area, and 
in that white area there is written the word credit card, and there is a Mobil 
gas seal. 

I think that is a fair description of what's on this card [indicating]. 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. And you are now seated close enough to me now that you can 
see it with your glasses on [indicating] ? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Davis, do you think that is a fair description of it? 

Mr. Davis. Yes ; I think that is a fair description of it. 

Mr. Arnett. Do you think I got anywhere close to it? 

Mr. Davis. Yes ; I think so. 

149 



Mr. Griffin. I understand there was nobody standing behind you? 
Mr. Arnett. Not that I know. 

Mr. Griffin. Was there anybody directly to your left? 
Mr. Arnett. To my left? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes; as you faced the direction that Lee Oswald was coming 
from? 

Mr. Arnett. There was another reporter with a pencil and pad to my left. 
Then I said Captain King and another man beyond him that I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were these people in the same line that Blackie Harrison 
was in? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. They were in the line with me. Blackie Harrison was 
in front of me. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 
3_25-64," and this is Exhibit 5034, and I am going to start another one here. 

All right. Now, Captain, I want you to put an "A" on this copy of the map 
where you were standing, put an "A" where you were standing when Oswald 
came out [indicating] ? 

Mr. Arnett. Okay. Now, this is the brick building here. Now, I want to 
be sure that I am looking at this right [indicating]. 
Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. Okay. There was a news reporter [indicating]. 
Mr. Griffin. Now, put an "A" where you were standing. 
Mr. Arnett. [Indicating.] 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, put an H in the circle around it where Blackie 
Harrison was standing. 
Mr. Arnett. [Indicating.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now, who was the other officer that you said was to your left? 
Mr. Arnett. A news reporter and Captain King, and I don't know where 
this other one was. 

Mr. Griffin. Put a "K" where Captain King was standing, and put an "X" 
where that newspaper reporter was. 
Mr. Arnett. [Indicating.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now, was there anybody between Captain King and the railing? 
Mr. Arnett. There was one person, but I couldn't tell you whether he was 
in civilian clothes or who they were or anything about it. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Put a question mark there. All right. You put 
a question there. 

Mr. Arnett. Got it wrong, didn't I? [Indicating.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now you have changed it. You put a dot to your right where 
there was a newsman? 

Mr. Arnett. Uh-huh [indicating]. 
Mr. Geiffin. Is this the man that had the microphone? 
Mr. Arnett.' Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Was there anybody in front of that man? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes. They were lined up down this wall here. I don't know 
whether there was anybody standing d'rectly in front of him. I wouldn't say 
[indicating]. 
Mr. Griffin. Was there anybody directly to Blackie Harrison's left? 
Mr. Arnett. I would say they were. 
Mr. Griffin. You don't remember? 
Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. How do you happen to remember these people that you put 
on the chart here? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, standing there with them, well 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see photographs, did you see movies of this after 
Oswald was shot? 

Mr. Arnett. I have seen them ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see 

Mr. Arnett. That didn't have any bearing on that. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you able to see yourself in those movies? 

Mr. Arnett. I am in some magazines. 

150 



Mr. Griffin. You were able to see yourself in the magazines? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. And is tliat how you were able to distinguish 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Those people? 

Mr. Arnett. Huh, uh. Thi.s letter that was written the 27th was before 
I ever saw any films or magazines, either one. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do the magazine shots which you have seen, in which 
you have seen yourself, do they show the man to your left, who you thought 
was a newsman? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do they show Captain King? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. How is it that just you come through on these magazine shots? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I don't Miow how they come through, but the Dallas 
Morning News and the Times Herald that had the big complete picture, all the 
front page was completely covered, I am not in it. Now, this newsman that 
was on my right, it shows the microphone but it doesn't show me at all. 

Mr. Griffin. What magazine did you see yourself in? 

Mr. Arnett. Four Dark Days in History, Four Days, Kennedy From Childhood 
to — I don't remember just exactly what it did say on that. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you happen to remember in Four Dark Days, what page 
your picture was on? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. But if you got one I can show it to you, but it's not 
before the shooting, no. 

Mr. Griffin. Oh, this is the shot that's taken after the shooting? 

Mr. Arnett. Shows me scuffling with 

Mr. Griffin. But you haven't seen a picture of yourself standing there in 
that line, have you? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, where did you see that picture? 

Mr. Arnett. In Four Days. 

Mr. Griffin. In Four Days you saw that? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. And it didn't show anybody standing beside me, either. 

Mr. Griffin. Does It show Blackie Harrison in that picture? 

Mr. Arnett. I believe it does. 

Mr. Griffin. All right, there is only one picture of you in Four Days? 

Mr. Arnett. In Four Days? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. No. There is three. 

Mr. Griffin. Three pictures of you? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Are they all on the same page? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't remember for sure whether they are on the same page 
or not, but they are in the same connection. 

Mr. Griffin. They are all in connection with the shooting? 

Mr. Arnett. Do you want me to tell you what they are? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. One of them shows me standing like I told you. The next one 
shows me in the scuffle with Jack Ruby from here up, doesn't show any other 
part (indicating). 

Mr. Griffin. Just shows the top of your head? 

Mr. Arnett. From right here up. The next one shows the top of my cap, 
from my back, following Oswald out to the ambulance. That's it [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. There is only one that shows you standing there? 

Mr. Arnett. That's the only one I have seen. 

Mr. Griffin. Does it show anything but your face? 

Mr. Arnett. From about right here up [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. About the middle of your chest up? 

Mr. Arnett. Something like that. One in Four Days in History shows me 
standing looking down like this, and L. C. Graves is wrestling with the gun, 
before I took hold of Ruby. 

151 
731-228 0—64 — vol. XII 11 



Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, did you see Ruby move forward out of the 
crowd ? 

Mr. Arnett. Not out of the crowd. He was in front of me before I saw him. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see him move in front of you? 

Mr. Arnett. I can give you an illustration better than I can tell you. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Illustrate. 

Mr. Arnett. Okay. I was standing like this, facing this way (indicating). 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, let's put Mr. Davis up in front of you, about 
where Blackie Harrison was. 

Mr. Arnett. All right. 

Mr. Guiffin. You place him up there. And Oswald is going to be to your right. 

Mr. Arnett. I was looking over his shoulder [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Arnett. The first thing 

Mr. Griffin. You were about that far away from him [indicating] ? 

Mr. Arnett. Something like that. 

Mr. Griffin. You were about 4 inches away from Blackie Harrison? 

Mr. Arnett. I would say something like that. 

Mr. Griffin. And looking over his right shoulder? 

Mr. Arnett. That's right. Lee Oswald came out [indicating] 

Mr. Griffin. You are looking to your right? 

Mr. Arnett. To my right. Lee Oswald came out, the two detectives, Leavelle 
and Graves, Leavelle was handcuffed to Oswald. Graves was on the left side 
of him, had him by the arm. The first time I saw Jack Ruby he was just about 
in this position, just pow, that's just how quick it happened. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, you get back there in the position where you first saw 
Jack. 

Mr. Arnett. [Indicating.] 

Mr. Griffin. No. You get where you saw Jack [indicating]. 

Mr. Arnett. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that about how far Jack was from 

Mr. Arnettt. From Oswald when I saw him, I guess [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that how far he was from Harrison? 

Mr. Arnett. He might have been a little further out this way from him, but 
(indicating). 

Mr. Griffin. In other words, the first time you saw Ruby, Ruby was stand- 
ing forward, he was standing between — in front of Harrison in the direction 
of the Commerce Street ramp? 

Mr. Arnett. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. But he was off to Harrison's left? 

Mr. Arnett. He was to Harrison's left a little bit. 

Mr. Griffin. What direction was Ruby facing when you saw him? 

Mr. Arnett. Just as you and I [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Facing almost directly at Oswald? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. At that point? 

Mr. Arnett. In this position [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you see anybody standing behind his back? 

Mr. Arnett. Did I see anybody behind Ruby's back? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, who would have been directly — as you are 
standing, directly toward Ruby's right, which would be up the Main Street 
ramp, who would have been standing right in that position along the row that 
you were in, directly to Ruby's right, toward the Main Street ramp [indicat- 
ing]? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I named this newsman with a pad, I mean, I said — I didn't 
know his name. I said he was to my right. 

Mr. Griffin. To your left? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes ; left. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, that man was to your left. Was Ruby right 
in front of him or was he right in front of Captain King? 

152 



Mr. Arnett. Well, he was just to the left of Blackie Harrison. Now, whether 
he was out in front in this manner right in front of King, I wouldn't say for 
certain [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Are you able to state whether Ruby was a different man from 
the man you saw next to you holding the pad? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, yes ; I would say he was a different man. 

Mr. Griffin. How are you able to state that? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I don't believe the newsman was dressed like Ruby. 

Mr. Griffin. But did you see that newsman again? 

Mr. Arnett. Did I see him again ; is that the question? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. After the shooting? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I couldn't say whether I did or not. 

Mr. Griffin. How would you describe the dress of that newsman ; did he 
have on a hat? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't believe he did. 

Mr. Griffin. Did he wear glasses? 

Mr. Arnett. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Griffin. Did he have a suit on? 

Mr. Arnett. I thought he had a kind of raincoat, jacket on, something of 
that type. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you see that man around before Oswald was shot? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I had been in this iwsition, I said 15 minutes, and so far 
as I know Blackie Harrison had been standing in front of me all that time, and 
this man beside me, I believe, had been there all this time. I believe they had 
all been there all this time. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, about 1 minute before Oswald was shot there was a car 
that drove up and split the lines up? 

Mr. Arnett. That's right. I don't know whether it was 1 minute. 

Mr. Griffin. But shortly before? 

Mr. Arnett. Shortly before there was ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Was that man standing over next to you before the car went 
up the ramp ; was that man in the raincoat next to you before the car went up 
the ramp? 

Mr. Arnett. I believe so. 

Mr. Griffin. Are you sure of that? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I think he was. 

Mr. Griffin. What makes you think he was? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I think I remember him being there with me. 

Mr. Griffin. Have you talked to Captain King about this man ? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how long did you remain in the police building after the 
shooting of Oswald? 

Mr. Arnbtft. After the shooting? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. Whenever he shot Oswald, I made a dive for him, and L. C. Graves, 
the detective, had him, and he had him like this, had the gun like this, and they 
were scuffling. T got him by the leg. I don't know what leg I got him by, but 
I got him by the leg, and I would say there were seven or eight of us had ahold 
of him. We carried him back into the jail office, and while we had him down, 
handcuffed, he said, "I am Jack Ruby. All of you know- me." They had him 
handcuffed by that time. I turned him loose and walked back over here where 
Oswald was laying [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, let me ask you this : how long were you in the 
building the rest of the day? 

Mr. Arnett. I believe I went home about 1 :30. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, by the time you went home had you heard any rumors 
about how Ruby got down into that basement? 

Mr. Arnett. That day? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. I don't believe so. I have heard rumors since then, but I didn't 
that day. 

153 



Mr. Griffin. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Griffin. Let the record reflect that Mr. Davis has left the room, and I 
hope the record reflects that we had a short hreak, a very short break, about 2 
minutes, and we are back and ready to go. Would you read the last part back? 

(The record was here read by the reporter. ) 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to mark for identification, Dallas, Tex., Captain Ar- 
nett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5035, and I am going to hand this to you. I am going to ask 
you, Captain Arnett, if what I am showing you is the dictaphone belt case with 
the red arrow on it that you identified earlier in the testimony [indicating]? 

Mr. Arnett. Do you want me to initial it [indicating] ? 

Mr. Griffin. Now, is the side which I have got the identification on the side 
that I showed you? 

Mr. Arnett. It was up like this. Yes [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. I mean the side [indicating]. 

Mr. Arnett. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, would you sign that? 

Mr. Arnett. Just sign it? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, I am also going to mark for identifica- 
tion, Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5036. 

Now, this is the diagram of the basement on which you placed markings in- 
dicating where you and Harrison and King and the reporter were standing, 
[indicating] ? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Just before Oswald came out? 

Mr. Arnett. [Nods head.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now, just before Oswald came out. did you see a man right 
next to Blackie Harrison's left? 

Mr. Arnbtit. To his left? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. As he would face up Commerce Street? 

Mr. Griffin. As Blackie would face Commerce Street, did you see a man to 
his left? 

Mr. Arnett. Well now, there were men out, you know, on the camera and 
stuff, to his left, if that's what you are talking about. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see anybody standing to his left, other than men 
manning the cameras? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I wouldn't say for certain that I did, because he may have 
been the last one in that row, I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, he was in the front row, wasn't he ; Blackie? 

Mr. Arnett. He was in front of me ; yes. And I would say he was in the 
front row, but 

Mr. Griffin. Was there a .solid line of people between Blackie and the TV 
cameras, in the row that Blackie was standing in? 

Mr. Arnett. It seems to me like there was somebody by the side of Blackie, 
but I am not going to say that there were because the first time I saw Jack 
Ruby he was to his left, coming up. Now, whether there was somebody right 
beside of Blackie Harrison, I am not going to say. 

Mr. Griffin. The first time you saw Jack he was sort of hunched over with 
the gim? 

Mr. Arnett. He was hunched over. He was in this position, and whenever 
he shot him he went down like that [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Ruby when he was moving toward Oswald? 

Mr. Arnett. I saw him moving from where I told you, up to Oswald. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see Ruby standing still? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you recall whether there was a solid line of people or 
how that line of people was from Blackie Harrison on to the TV cameras? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, like I said, I think there was somebody the other side of 
him, but I am not going to be certain about it. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, were there any other police oflScers up in the same row 
that Blackie Harrison was in? 

154 



Mr. Arnbttt. They were people lined up all the way up the wall and on this 
wall over here, they were lined all the way up to the edge of it [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett, did you receive instructions 
before Oswald came out as to where thase newspaper people were to stand? 

Mr. Arnett. Where the newspaper — no ; I did not. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you present when some men convened around Officer Jones, 
Captain Jones, prior to Oswald's coming down, when Jones gave some in- 
structions? 

Mr. Arnett. Sergeant Jones? 

Mr. Griffin. No. Captain Jones. 

Mr. Arnett. Captain Jones. I remember seeing Captain Jones there, but I 
don't remember any group being around him. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, did you have any instructions to the effect that you were not 
to permit newspaper people to be over here on the Main Street side? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. I did not. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any instructions that you were to try to keep 
these newspaper people over toward the entrance of the garage? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr, Griffin. Well, what institictions did you have as to what you were to 
do there? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, the main instructions I had was to — when we was placing 
these men around, searching the building, see that there was nobody in there 
at all, other than was supposed to be. 

Mr. Griffin. But that was an hour before? 

Mr. Arnett. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, you knew Oswald was going to come out that 
door from the jail, jail office? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. And did you have some idea that you were supposed to keep 
the area free? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, w'asn't supposed to let anybody in there. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, if newspaper people had crowded up in front of him, 
did you have any instructions as to what you were to do? 

Mr. Arnett. I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, do you know if any of the other people had instructions 
like that? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. When did you write the report that has been marked as Ex- 
hibit 5033? 

Mr. Arnett. When did I write it? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arnett. That one was — let me see, now. That happened on Sunday, I 
went to Tippit's funeral on Monday, I went to Corpus Christi on Monday night, 
I was in Corpus on Tuesday. I believe I wrote that on Wednesday [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Right. Now, Sunday was the 24th 

Mr. Arnett. Monday would have been the 2r)th, Tuesday the 26th, be the 
27th. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Would you indicate on here, would you put com- 
posed November 27, and initial that [indicating] ? 

Mr. Arnett. How do you spell composed? 

Mr. Griffin. [Spelling] C-o-m-p-o-s-e-d. 

Mr. Arnett. [Spelling] C-o-m-p 

Mr. Griffin. [Spelling] — o-s-e-d. 

Mr. Arnett. November 27? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, in between this time, in between the time 
that you left the police building on the 24th and the time you prepared this 
statement, did you talk with any of the members of the i)olice department 
about the events? 

Mr. Arnett. You mean how it was — how they were set up or something? 

Mr. Griffin. No. Any conversations — did you talk with any of the police 
oflScers ? 

Mr. Aenett. Well now, on Monday, after this on Sunday, I was down there 

155 



and called some men to meet me out at the Baptist Church on Beckley, to work 
traffic for the Tippit funeral. I talked to Lieutenant Pierce. He asked me 
if I would get some reserves out there to help, that they was going to need some, 
and I said I will call and get some and go out there myself, and I did. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with Pierce about the things that had happened 
on November 24? 

Mr. Arnett. Not that I know of now. Not that I remember about. We were 
talking about this one particular area. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you ever talk with Pierce at that time, prior to the 
time you wrote this statement, did you ever talk with Pierce about how Ruby 
got into the basement? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't know whether I did prior to that letter or not. I have 
heard since then that when Lieutenant Pierce drove out, that the officers stepped 
out to stop the traffic and that Jack Ruby said that's when he walked in. Now, 
when I heard that I couldn't say, the date, but I don't know, but I have heard 
that. 

Mr. Griffin. Before you prepared the statement, did you talk with any 
of the reserves or any members of the police department, about how Ruby might 
have got down in the basement? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, it seems that maybe some people would say, well, he must 
have come in with a camera or something, you know, like that. As far as just 
individuals talking to anybody about it, I don't remember, you know, just par- 
ticularly talking about that one thing of how he got in there. But I am con- 
fident that he wasn't in there. I am confident of that, as I am that Jack Ruby 
shot Oswald, and I saw that. I may be wrong about it, but now, that's just the 
way I feel about it, that he wasn't in that basement. 

Mr. Griffin. Where do you think he was? 

Mr. Arnbttt. Well, I don't know where he was. But as far as him being in 
there auy length of time, I just don't believe he was. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you have seen him if he came across the railing? 

Mr. Arnett. Would I have seen him? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes.. 

Mr. Arnett. Well, it seems like I would have, but I don't know that I 
would have. 

Mr. Griffin. Why do you think you would have? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, you know, if you are just looking off, like this, and some- 
thing happens over here in 10 or 12 feet of you, you will almost 

Mr. Griffin. Wasn't your attention focused almost all the time — after 
Pierce's car went up the ramp, w'asn't your attention focused towards the 
jail office? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I would say yes, most of the time, but you can just let any- 
thing — you can be driving down the road and a bird or something fly by, you 
will get a glance of it, and I believe if he had come over that rail I would have 
got the glance off of it. 

Mr. Griffin. Could you see things happening over by that railing? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, I am not going to say that you could or you couldn't, but 
I believe if he had come over that railing, I believe I would have saw him. 

Mr. Griffin. Well now, if he had come over the railing behind the line that you 
were standing in you wouldn't have seen him, would you? 

Mr. Arnett. No. Sure wouldn't have. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. If you were drawing a straight line across your 
shoulders — well, let's not do it that way. You have got this thing marked on 
the map here where the A is and where I placed the TV cameras. If you were 
drawing a straight line across the Main Street ramp, where would that line — 
how far would that line have come from the TV cameras that I have placed here 
[indicating]? 

Mr. Arnett. How far would it come? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. In other words, how far up the [indicating] 

Mr. Arnett. I would say a straight line behind the cameras would have been 
about like Mr. Davis from me [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. What I am asking you here, I am asking you to tell me about how 
far up the Main Street ramp you were standing from the TV cameras ; would 

156 



you say that the TV cameras and you were the same distance up the Main Street 
ramp or they were a little bit in front of you? 

Mr. Arnett. They were a little in front of me. 

Mr. Griffin. How much ; by a little bit, would you say? 

Mr. Arnett. Well, 5 feet. 

Mr. Griffin. Maybe 5 feet in front of you. Could they have been less than 
5 feet? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't believe they would have been. They could have. I am 
just roughly guessing now. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were there people congregated around those TV cameras, 
in front of those TV cameras? 

Mr. Arnett. In front of it? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. I don't remember any of them being in front of it. 

Mr. Geiffin. How about along the sides of the TV cameras? 

Mr. Arnett. If I remember right, there was a man at each one of the cameras, 
operating it. 

Mr. Griffin. But there weren't other people crowded down around them? 

Mr. Arnett. Not that I remember ; no, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Well now, wouldn't Captain King and that newspaperman have 
blocked your side vision over in the direction of the TV cameras? 

Mr. Arnett. It could have. 

Mr. Griffin. If Jack Ruby had walked down that Main Street ramp would 
you have seen him? 

Mr. Arnett. Not without turning around and looking back, I wouldn't have ; 
no, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any occasion to turn back and look around after 
Rio Pierce's car went up? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you mean you don't remember or 

Mr. Aknett. I don't remember looking around, no sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody suggest to you before you wrote this statement that 
you should have seen Ruby in there? 

Mr. Arnett. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody ask you if you did see Ruby in there before you 
wrote this statement? 

Mr. Arnett. Other than I just said, I saw him just like I have told you. 

Mr. Griffin. Who asked you to write this statement? 

Mr. Arnett. Captain Solomon. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did Captain Solomon ever ask you before you wrote the 
statement whether you saw Ruby in there? 

Mr. Arnett. I don't recall that he did. But I told him just like I told you, 
the first time I saw him, where he was, the position he was, so there would be 
no cause for him to ask me that, because I am telling you the truth about where 
he was when I saw him. He was too close. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, do you feel 

Mr. Arnett. Whenever I had ahold of him, I felt like there could be some more 
shots fired. I believe you would have felt the same way, because I wasn't figur- 
ing on that first one being fired. 

Mr. Griffin. Okay. I am going to ask you to sign all these things [indicating]. 

Mr. Arnett. All i-ight [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. I ask you to sign them, and I assume that when you sign them 
you are indicating that you think they are accurate and wouldn't make any 
changes to them? 

Mr. Arnett. Yes, sir. I have tried to tell you just as near the truth as I can. 
Just sign it or 

Mr. Griffin. Just sign it and put the date. Now, will you sign that one and 
this one here [indicating] ? 

Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Griffin. Have I interviewed you before the beginning of this deposition? 

Mr. Arnett. Before tonight? 

157 



Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Arnett. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Griffin. Has any other member of the staff interviewed you before I took 
your deposition? 

Mr. Arnett. The only one that interviewed me was the FBI men, came to my 
home, one of them was from Memphis, Tenn., and I don't know where the other 
one came from. 

Mr. Griffin. I don't have to ask you this, but we say it for the record 
anyhow. If anything should come to your attention which you think would be 
helpful to us or which you find maybe you want to make a correction in any- 
thing that you have told us, will you come to us and 

Mr. Arnett. Absolutely. 

Mr. Griffin. And advise us? 

Mr. Arnett. I am for you 100 percent. 

Mr. Griffin. I certainly appreciate your assistance. That's all. 



TESTIMONY OF BUFORD LEE BEATY 

The testimony of Buford Lee Beaty was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26, 1964, 
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's 
Commission. 

Mr. Griffin. For the record, I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the 
advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the President's Commission 
on the Assassination of President Kennedy. 

This Commission has been appointed pursuant to Executive Order of Presi- 
dent Johnson issued on November 29, 1963, and pursuant to a joint resolution 
of Congress No. 137. 

Under the provisions of the Resolution and Executive order, the Commission 
has authority to establish rules and procedure which they have done, and pur- 
suant to those rules and procedures I have been designated to come here to 
Dallas to take your sworn deposition. 

You are appearing here by virtue of a letter which was sent fi'om the general 
counsel of the Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry. 

Actually, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written notice. However, under 
the rules of the Commission, if you want to, you can waive the notice, and we 
can go forward without the actual letter, I will ask you a little later whether 
you want a letter, or waive it. 

The scope of this investigation is that we are directed to investigate and 
evaluate and report back to President Johnson all the facts that surround the 
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey 
Oswald. 

Our particular concern in calling you is in connection with the death of 
Lee Oswald, although I am going to ask you some questions that will develop 
a little background that people who are working on the assassination of the 
President can use to decide whether you were in a position to provide some physi- 
cal action that something might have happened in which they are particularly 
concerned about and as to which they need more witnesses. 

But our primary concern in talking to you is to find out the matters which 
might be relevant to Ruby, although we are interested in anything else that 
you might know of your own knowledge that is valuable to the Commission. 

Let me ask you first of all, would you like us to get you a written letter. 

Mr. Beaty. No. 

Mr. Griffin. He is shaking his head no. I might say, she has to take your 
answer down. 

Mr. Beiatt. I am sorry ; no. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, also, you are entitled to an attorney. 

Mr. Beaty. What do I need an attorney for? 

]68 



Mr. Griffin. Some of the people come with attorneys. I don't want you to 
feel that maybe if you come with an attorney that you are prejudiced. 

Mr. Be:aty. I don't need an attorney, I don't think. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to 
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Beiatt. I do. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you state your name for the record? 

Mr. Beaty. Buford Lee Beaty. 

Mr. Griffin. Where do you live, Mr. Beaty? 

Mr. Beaty. 404 Freeman, Garland. 

Mr. Griffin. When were you born? 

Mr. Beaty. July 10, 1924. 

Mr. Griffin. Where are you employed? 

Mr. Beaty. Police department, Dallas, Tex. 

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been so employed? 

Mr. Beiaty. Fifteen and a half years. 

Mr. Griffin. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department? 

Mr. Beaty. Narcotics. 

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been there? 

Mr. Beaty. Altogether, about 4 years. This last time, about 6 months, some- 
thing like that. 

Mr. Griffin. What was the earlier period that you were with the narcotics 
bureau? 

Mr. Beaty. From 1957 to 1960. And then I came back this time in June. 

Mr. Griffin. Now from 1960 until you came back, what bureau? 

Mr. Beaty. Burglary and theft. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you hold a particular rank? 

Mr. Beaty. Detective ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now. did you know Ruby announced that you would recognize 
him? 

Mr. Beaty. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Could you tell us how you happened to first become familiar 
with Mr. Ruby? 

Mr. Beaty. When I first met him? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Beaty. Well, I wrote him a traffic ticket one time about 1951, or some- 
thing like that. But I knew of him before then. 

He had a joint down on South Ervay, and he was always calling the police 
to pick up drunks and one thing and another. Everybody knows Jack Ruby. 

Mr. Griffin. It was the Silver Spur? 

Mr. Beaty. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. In connection with your duties in the narcotics bureau, did 
you ever have occasion to talk with him or conduct any investigation in con- 
nection with him? 

Mr. Beaty. About narcotics specifically? 

Mr. Griffin. Well, in connection with any of your duties, investigating duties 
with the police department, as opposed to traffic tickets? Let me ask you that 
question generally. 

Mr. Beaty. Not that I ever recall. I can't think of anything specifically at 
all where I could say I had occasion to interrogate him about anything. 

Mr. Griffin. What I am getting at is, was Jack Ruby ever treated by you 
as a person whom you might go to if you needed to find out about somebody? 

Mr. Beaty. A confidant? No, sir; absolutely not. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know whether other people you worked with in the 
narcotics bureau might have attempted to use him? 

Mr. Beaty. No, sir ; I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you familiar with any narcotics investigation that ever 
took place with respect to Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Beaty. None. 

Mr. Griffin. Now how often would you say that you saw Ruby during the 
last 3 years? 

Mr. Beaty. Possibly, four, maybe five times. 

159 



Mr. Griffin. What were the occasions for seeing Jack? 

Mr. Beaty. Well, I saw him one time. I was working late nights and I saw 
him walking his dog after his joint closed down on Commerce Street, and I 
run into him on the street, and I go by his joint. You don't say hello and look 
around. You say hello. 

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack ever stop in and visit you while you were in your 
oflBce at the police department? 

Mr. Beaty. l"es ; that was the last time I saw him before the shooting. 
He came by — didn't particularly come to see me, but he just came to the oflSce. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall about When that was? 

Mr. Be:aty. No ; it seemed like it was about a month before all this happened, 
something like that. 

Mr. Griffin. Did he speak to anybody in the narcotics ofl&ce? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes ; he talked to myself, and I believe Lieutenant Cornwall 
was in and out of the office, and Dan Asabell. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember what you all talked with Jack about? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes ; he talked about a girl. He had a stripper down, there. 
Let me think if I remember what her name was. Jada from New Orleans. 

The whole thing was how he thought Jada was just a little indecent about her 
act and he would have to turn the lights off every once in a while and tell her 
to clean it up a little bit, and one thing and another. And how they went 
through a little "Hazel" in Judge Richburg's court over all this. It was all in the 
papers, the whole story was and that is about the gist of what we talked about. 
And Jada testified at the previous tiling. 

The bureau I work in, the special bureau, also handles all the dancehall 
licenses and the liquor licenses and it could be that, I don't believe he made a 
special trip to our office, I think he came to the bureau and might have had a 
little business for a liquor license, or something, I don't know. I didn't ask him 
about it at all. 

Mr. Griffin. All right, the narcotics bureau, is that correct to call it a bureau? 

Mr. Beaty. Section. 

Mr. Griffin. Narcotics section is a subdivision of the special service bureau, 
is that correct? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Within the special service bureau, there is a department which 
handles dancehall policemen? 

Mr. Beaty. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, does everybody who is a part of the special service bureau 
occupy the same suite of offices? 

Mr. Beaty. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Does the narcotics bureau occupy the same suite of offices as 
the dancehall bureau? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. What other people occupy the same suite of offices? 

Mr. Beaty. Vice squad. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember. Detective Beaty, that you were on duty on 
Novemb'^r 22, the day the President was shot? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes ; I was. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where you were when you first heard he had been 
shot? 

Mr. Beaty. Trade Mart. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did you go from the Trade Mart? 

Mr. Beaty. Went back to our office. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain there? 

Mr. Beaty. I think until about 9 o'clock that night. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you. on duty on the 23d? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you remain in the police department all day on the 23d? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes, sir. What day was the 23d? 

Mr. Griffin. That was Saturday. 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

160 



Mr. Griffin. Directing your attention to Friday, did you see Jack Ruby in the 
hallway at all on Friday, or any place in the police department? 

Mr. Beaty. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Now on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby any time on Saturday? 

Mr. Beatt. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. What time would you estimate that you left the police depart- 
ment on Saturday? 

Mr. Beaty. Worked a lot of overtime. I am trying to remember. It was 
probably 6 :30 or 7 o'clock that night ; Saturday night. 

Mr. Griffin. Now do you recall whether when you left the police department 
that night you had heard any rumors or had received any kind of information 
that would indicate that Oswald was going to be moved from the city jail to the 
county jail un Saturday? 

Mr. Beiatt. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Sunday a regular day for you to report to duty? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. What time did you report for duty? 

Mr. BEiATY. Eight o'clock that morning. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember where you parked your car that morning? 

Mr. Bbiaty. In the basement, I believe. No ; that is not right. It is Sunday 
you are talking about now? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Beaty. I couldn't tell you to save my life. 

Mr. Griffin. At anytime on Sunday did you ever have occasion to come 
in the Commerce Street, come down the steps from Commerce Street and 
walk down the hallway in the basement that leads to the records room? 

Mr. Beaty. The pedestrian entrance to the city hall basement? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Beaty. I don't remember that either. If I park my car on Commerce 
Street around there somewhere, I probably did. If I parked it on Main, I 
probably took that other entrance, but I don't remember. 

Mr. Griffin. If you don't remember, that is all right. 

Mr. Beaty. I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you arrived for duty, did you report up to the 
narcotics bureali? 

Mr. BeatYw Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that on the third floor? 

Mr. Bbiaty. No ; on the second floor. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain in the narcotics bureau? 

Mr. Beaty. Until about 9:15 or something like that. 

Mr. Griffin. Then what did you do at 9:15? 

Mr. Beaty. Everyone decided we wanted to get some coffee, and as we 
got off the elevator in the basement, I noticed all the newspaper people stand- 
ing out there and a couple of reserve oflScers and a policeman, I think, whose 
name was Nelson. I didn't know him at the time. He was guarding the 
entrance. And just curiosity made me, instead of going to get coffee, stay 
around to see what was going on. 

Mr. Griffin. Were the people that you were going to go to coffee with in 
the narcotics bureau? 

Mr. Belity. No ; vice and narcotics, and some administrative section. 

Mr. Griffin. Any people from the third floor? 

Mr. Beaty. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know where they went after coffee? 

Mr. Beaty. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Did they go out of the building? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes ; out of the building. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, tell me what happened when yoli saw this fellow Nielson. 

Mr. Beaty. Right away, nothing. I mean I just happened to glance over 
here and here's two officers, and nothing happened. I just kind of lingered 
behind and I didn't care for coffee anyway, and I told them I would wait 
for them, and I kind of figured they would maybe move Oswald, and I just 
wanted to see him and that is what it amounted to. 

161 



Mr. Griffin. Did you — you expected that Oswald would be moved fairly 
soon? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Had you received some word before that? 

Mr. Beaty. Everybody in the world, at 10 o'clock. They said in the news- 
paper and radio. 

Mr. Griffin. By this time when the boys in your group went out for coffee, 
had there been any instructions to standby? 

Mr. Beaty. None. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you later receive some instructions to standby to help 
in the Oswald move? 

Mr. Beaty. As Capt. O. A. Jones got off the elevator, and as he walked by, 
he said, "Come here, I want to talk to you." 

Mr. Griffin. Did this take place in the basement? 

Mr. Beaty. Bight by the elevator door to the basement. He said there will 
be some officers come down from the third floor, and told me to wait for them 
right here, and he indicated close by the entrance to the jail office. 

Mr. Griffin. Now Detective Beaty, what is your best estimate of how long 
this encounter with Jones was before Oswald actually came downstairs? 

Mr. Beiaty. What time did he get shot? It was about probably 30 minutes 
before he actually came down and Ruby shot him. 

Mr. Griffin. That is the important thing. I would rather have you fix 
it in terms of that time rather than some specific time. 

Mr. Beaty. Around 30 minutes or something like this. 

Mr. Griffin. Because I noticed in the interview which you gave to the FBI, 
you indicated that this was about 10 o'clock that you saw Jones. Did you 
have any idea at the time when you gave this interview to Agents Dallman 
and Quigley — that was on December 3 — did you have anything specific in 
mind when you told them that it was 10 o'clock. 

Mr. Beaty. I just was trying to remember when Captain Jones told me 
to remain there. No ; I was just trying to remember about the lapse of time, 
it seemed to me like. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you to look over this with me. Let me point out, 
you indicated here that you thought Oswald came down about 11 :30? 

Mr. Beaty. I do. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, they have reported that you told them that it was 10 o'clock. 
Now it may be that that was that time it could be a mistake on their part writing 
it down? 

Mr. Beaty. Well, I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead. 

Mr. Beaty. Boy, it is hard to remember, but it seems to me like he breezed 
through in just probably about 30 minutes — could possibly be longer — after Mr. 
Jones told me this. I waited around for probably another 4 or 5 minutes and 
the elevator doors opened up, and here all the officers from the third floor, 
and we moved from there out into the middle hallway. And they describe it 
here as a, whatever, I don't know, right outside the jail office door, the little 
hall where they brought him out of the jail office door there, and we remained 
there for about 30 minutes. And if the shooting actually occurred around 11 :30, 
I have made an error about the original time Captain Jones said that. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you want to take my pen and on this statement would 
you want to put a circle around the 10 o'clock and make some note out on the 
side that what you meant was 30 minutes before the shooting, or whatever you 
think was the accurate time? 

Mr. Beaty. Gosh, I don't remember. I just can't remember to save my life 
what time it was. 

Mr. Griffin. How is your memory as to the fact that it was about 30 minutes 
before the shooting? 

Mr. Beaty. Thirty minutes, may be an hour. That times passes so fast along 
in there. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you think it could have been longer than an hour? 

Mr. Beaty. I don't think so ; no, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Would it be fair to say, and I want you to be very frank about 

162 



this, because I don't want to change this in any way that isn't fair, would it be 

fair to change this time 10 a.m., to read 

Mr. Beaty. That it was 10 or 10 :30, would that be all right, because I don't 
remember ? 

Mr. Griffin. To read a half hour or — to an hour before Oswald was shot? 

Mr. Beaty. Well, I don't carry a watch so I never know what time it is unless 
I ask somebody and it would be a matter of kind of remembering, and if you 
want to say 10 or 10 :30, that would be about the same time, wouldn't it? 

Mr. Geiffin. Would it be just fair to .say, "I am not certain about the exact 
time?" 

Mr. Beaty. That would be fine. 

Mr. Griffin. I wish you would do this in your own handwriting and write in 
there, "I am not certain about the time." 

Mr. Beaty. [Makes statement and initials.] 

Mr. Griffin. Put a date after your initials. 

Mr. Beaty. 3-26-64. I don't even remember what month. 

Mr. Griffin. All right, now, do you recall any of the people who came down 
in the contingent with Captain Jones? 

Mr. Beaty. They are listed on the back of that, the best I remember. 

Mr. Griffin. You have listed on page 32, of what we have labeled Commission 
Document 85 (Beaty Exhibit 5040), the names of about a dozen police ofiicers. 
Did you see all these people come down together, or these people that you 
remember as having been in the basement? 

Mr. Beaty. They came— let me read them. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me read them for the record. B. H. Combest. J. H. 
Hutchinson. 

Mr. Beaty. Those two, boy, they are supposed both special service officers, too, 
and I don't know how in the world they could have received word unless they 
called and told them to come down, because they were the only ones from the 
special service bureau down there with me at the time. I can't remember them 
getting off the elevator at the time, but Captain Martin ^ 

Mr. Griffin. Let me read them. W. J. Harrison. 

Mr. Beaty. Yes ; I remember him. 

Mr. Griffin. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw. James Watson. 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. L. D. Miller. 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. R. L. Lowery. 

Mr. Beiaty. Yes ; he was on. 

Mr. Griffin. J. Charles Goolsby? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. W. E. Chambers. 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Captain Frank Martin. 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Lieutenant W. Wiggins? 

Mr. Beaty. No ; he wasn't. He was a jail supervisor. He was already down. 

Mr. Griffin. R. C. Wagner? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. That is the complete list. 

Mr. Beaty. They must have been on two elevators. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, have these men that you saw come down, Harrison, Cutch- 
shaw, Watson, Miller, Lowery, Goolsby, Chambers, and Martin, were all those 
people attached to the juvenile bureau? 

Mr. Beaty. No; Chambers is forgery. Goolsby is juvenile. Lowery is ju- 
venile. Wagner, I believe, is forgery. Watson is auto theft. Harrison is 
juvenile. I don't know where Miller works. 

Mr. Griffin. How about Cutchshaw? 

Mr. Beaty. Cutchshaw is juvenile. Hutchinson and Combest are both special 
services. 

Mr. Griffin. But Wagner was not in the elevator? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes ; he was with them. 

163 



Mr. Griffin. He came down in the elevator? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes ; Wiggins wasn't. 

Mr. Griffin. Wiggins wasn't in the elevator. Now, when these men got off 
the elevator, what did they do? Where did they go? 

Mr. BELiTY. Walked straight out there in front of the elevator to the windows 
hy — ^are you familiar with that place down there? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes ; I am. 

Mr. Beaty. What I call it, where you go through that. 

Mr. Griffin. Might as well call it the window in front of the jail oflBce, if 
that is where it was. 

Mr. Beaty. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to sketch a diagram of the basement. Did they go 
through the swinging doors? 

Mr. Beaty. We waited right about here. 

Mr. Griffin. You are indicating just about at the first window of the jail 
office as you come from the elevator? 

Mr. Beaty. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. The elevator we are talking about is the general elevator that 
services all floors and is available to anybody that comes into the building? 

Mr. Beaty. We are not talking about the jail elevator? 

Mr. Griffin. That's right. 

Mr. Beaty. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you all congregated outside that window, what took 
place? 

Mr. Beiaty. Within 5 or 10 minutes, Captain Jones came through and spoke to 
me, and we walked through the small hall by the jail office window into the 
double doors' and he instructed us to stand on either side of that hallway, which 
would be just outside the double doors as you enter into the basement parking 
area. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, Mr. Beaty, I am going to hand you my pen. I am going 
to ask you if you will mark on this diagram where was your understanding that 
people were to place themselves. 

Mr. Beaty. Where they were assigned? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes ; what assignments did Jones make at that i)oint? 

Mr. Beaty. He said, "Divide yourself up about half and half. Half on this 
side and half on this side." 

Mr. Griffin. Now, you have drawn a line on either side, straight line on 
either side of the hallway that leads out between the swinging doors and the 
Main Street and Commerce Street ramp. 

Mr. Beaty. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell officers to stand any place except along those two 
walls where you have drawn the line? 

Mr. Beaty. No, sir. He instructed us to, when they brought Oswald out of 
the smaller swinging door in the outside hall, to make a path for him and be 
sure that nobody got to him or slowed him down. In other words, indicating 
that — I don't remember whether he said to get to him or not. He just said keep 
the people back so we can get him through, something like that. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this: What was your understanding that you 
people were to do, if anything, when Oswald got abr'east of you? 

Mr. Beaty. To keep the people back. Of course, oVer here where I was, there 
was nobody behind me. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you place on the chart where it was you were stationed? 
Put an "X" there. 

Mr. Beaty. [Complies.] 

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you again. As Oswald moved out of the jail office 
and approached the car that he was to get in, did you have any understanding 
as to any action that you were supposed to take? 

Mr. BiiATY. Like I said before, of course, there was nobody at that time, we 
thought, but the press and police officers down there, and at that time we were, 
television cameras were set up across the ramp behind a railing about 4 foot 
tall. 

Mr. Griffin. Will you place the TV cameras? 

164 



Mr. Beaty. Somewhere right there. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you to put the TV cameras in a square. 

Mr. Beaty. [Complies.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were there only two TV cameras in the basement? 

Mr. Beaty. The best I remember. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if there was a TV camera in the garage entrance- 
way to the garage? 

Mr. Beaty. No, sir ; I sure don't. There were so many of them, and guys had 
them on their shoulders, and little tape recorders, and one thing all over the 
joint. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, I am talking only about TV cameras, the big things that 
set on a tripod as opposed to little movie cameras. 

Mr. Beaty. They had some of the shoulder cameras. 

Mr. Griffin. I wasn't thinking of them. I am just talking about the stationary 
cameras. 

Mr. Beaty. I suppose I didn't pay any attention to them at all. 

Mr. Griffin. I am only talking now about the instructions that you remember 
that came from Captain Jones. Do you have any idea as to what you were to 
do when Oswald got abreast of you? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes, sir. He told us we would keep this aisle clear, and at this 
time the cameras were run in and out of this door and something through this 
door, and around here, and then he r'eturned in about 3 or 4 minutes later and 
said, "All you people from the press move back into the driveway." And I will 
indicate it by a dotted line across here. 

Mr. Griffin. Okay. 

Mr. Beaty. And over into the driveway entrance of the parking area from 
the Commerce Street, Main Street ramp. Would you want a dotted line? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. Let me ask you a question about that. What is your best 
estimate of the number of people that were over in the garage entrance area? 

Mr. Beaty. Counting the people here behind the camera? 

Mr. Griffin. No ; not counting the people behind the camera. 

Mr. Beaty. Right along in here? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes ; along the dotted line. 

Mr. Beaty. Thirty-five or forty. 

Mr. Griffin. Was that congested? 

Mr. Beaty. No; it wasn't. You can get that many people in. It is a pretty 
wide area. Looks like it might be 50 feet across there, if this is 15. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, across that 50-foot area, was there just a single line across 
there? 

Mr. Beaty. They could be doubled or tripled. They were all scattered out, of 
course. But there seemed like there wa.^ some congestion right around there 
and behind the cameras. 

Mr. Griffin. Will you draw a half circle in the area or quarter circle in the 
area where the congestion was? 

Mr. Beaty. Right along in here, best I remember. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did there appear to be people standing behind the TV 
cameras? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there people standing up above the TV cameras, if you 
recall? 

Mr. Beaty. I don't know what they would stand on. There is nothing for 
them to stand on unless they had a box or something like that. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how did the congestion in this area that you have in- 
dicated by a half circle which runs from about the position of the TV camera 
close to the Main Street side, to about the middle of the entrance to the garage, 
how did the congestion in that area compare to the congestion along the Main 
Street ramp or across the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Beiaty. The best I remember, most of the people that moved out of this 
area moved into this area here. Then they moved over here. It looked like 
there might have been as many here, or more, as there were over here. There 
must have been a hundred all together all scattered out all in the basement, 
and they wouldn't stay still. They would mill around as long as they didn't 

165 



get past this line here, and we weren't too concerned with them, because they 
had uniform oflScers out here in the basement and they brought those down 
earlier and shook down all the cars a time or two, and I don't know what was 
going on out here. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how maaiy uniformed officers did you see stationed back 
here in the basement area? 

Mr. Beaty. Earlier? 

Mr. Griffin. No ; at the time Oswald came out. 

Mr. Beaty. I didn't see any. 

Mr. Griffin. Is it possible that there might not have been officers there? 

Mr. Beaty. No ; there were some earlier, about 50. 

Mr. Griffin. About 50 in there? Did you see them search the basement? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did they search the basement, can you remember, before or after 
you got the instructions from Captain Jones? 

Mr. Beaty. I couldn't remember. I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you down in the basement? 

Mr. Beaty. What do you call the basement now, this or this? 

Mr. Griffin. I am talking about the whole bottom area, all the way from the 
elevators that come down from the upstairs. 

Mr. Bel^ty. After the instructions, because I wouldn't be out here. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you, prior to the time that your friends planned to go out for 
coffee, down in the basement at all ? 

Mr. Beaty. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. But you were down in the basement at the time the search of 
the basement was conducted? 

Mr. Beaty. This was a good hour and a half or something like that, later 
on. 

Mr. Griffin. The basement was searched substantially after you got down 
there? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. And I understand that this was the second time it hap- 
pened. 

In other words, well, I heard somebody say we have swept the basement out 
twice already and I don't remember who said this. This is to indicate that 
they searched the cars. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who was in charge of th'e search that you saw 
take place? 

Mr. Beaty. I would assume that since it was uniformed officers, it would be 
Captain Talbert, because they were all uniform officers. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember whether or not Sergeant Dean was in charge 
of that search? 

Mr. Beaty. No ; Sergeant Dean was there and so was Sergeant Putnam, and 
I don't think you could say one was in charge or the other one was in charge. 
It was a joint operation. I would say Captain Talbert was in charge. And, 
actually, he wasn't down there. He would drop by and leave a few instructions, 
some for Dean and some for Putnam and the like. 

Mr. Griffin. During the period that you were down in the basement, did 
you see cars going in and out, coming up and down the ramp? 

Mr. Beaty. Saw one leave, it was a squad car, and it left and went this way. 

Mr. Griffin. Up the Main Street ramp. Did you see any other cars coming 
in the basement? Were officers coming in on routine duty and so forth? 

Mr. Beaty. I am sure there were, but I don't remember whether they were 
or not. I know that they closed it from 9 o'clock on, but I can't remember 
exactly what time they shut it off. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you first walked out in here in front of the swinging 
doors toward the ramp, do you recall if the TV lights were on? 

Mr. Beaty. No, sir ; they weren't. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you recall when the armored car came in? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if the TV lights were on at that time? 

Mr. Beiaty. No, sir; I am quite sure that they took some picture of it, but 
I don't remember whether, and there again which lights are you talking about? 

166 



Man, they were everywhere down there. And the armored ear backed down this 
ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. Commerce Street? 

Mr. Beaty. Commerce Street ramp. And there were people with cameras 
on the Main Street ramp back over here, back behind this 55-foot entrance to 
the garage. They were everywhere. 

Mr. Griffin. Was there some sort of floodlights set up in connection with 
the TV cameras? 

Mr. Beaty. I am sure there were. They were awful bright. I don't know 
whether they were hooked onto the cameras or something. They brought in 
this material, but the best I remember, there was a bunch of them over in 
this area. 

Mr. Griffin. Behind the camera? 

Mr. Beaty. Well, not necessarily. They could have been under or over. 
You couldn't hardly tell. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, at the time that the armored car came down the ramp, 
did you see what happened around that armored car? 

Mr. Beaty. Like what now? 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see anything that happened? 

Mr. Beaty. No. 

Mr. Griffin. You saw the armored car come down? 

Mr. Beaty. It took them quite a while to get the armored car down. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you actually see it come down? 

Mr. Beaty. Not the whole time. 

Mr. Griffin. As you looked up toward that armored car, were you able 
to see people around that armored car from where you were standing? 

Mr. Beaty. Well, tell me when you are talking about? 

Mr. Griffin. At anytime. 

Mr. Beaty. It took it about 5 minutes to back down, because it was too 
tight for the ramp, and they didn't get it all the way in there. They were 
very, very cautious and careful, and it parked up the ramp, and I don't remem- 
ber seeing anybody around. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall Chief Batchelor coming down into the basement 
and going up to the armored car? 

Mr. Beaty. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall any police officers up in the area of the armored 
car? 

Mr. Beaty. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you recall whether there was an officer — did you see 
an officer stationed up at the top of the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Beaty. No, sir ; I couldn't see that way. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that because of the police that were stationed that you 
didn't have a straight view of the ramp? 

Mr. BeatT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, as you looked over in this direction over here, could you 
see any police oflScers over in there? The place that I am indicating is in 
the direction of the Main Street ramp. Did you see any police oflBcers? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes, sir ; some of those officers I mentioned, I don't remember 
exactly how they were stationed, which ones. The plainclothes officers were 
standing on this side here. 

Mr. Griffin. Could you tell us — I am not asking you who you subsequently 
learned was over there, but who you actually remember seeing in that line? 

Mr. Beaty. I don't know. I couldn't tell you. The only reason I could 
on this report I made, I remember who all was down there. That I could 
remember. And I remember one was on our side, and I assumed the others 
were on the other side. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, as you look over here toward the TV cameras 

Mr. Beaty. I am not looking over there much. 

Mr. Griffin. If, when you did on occasions look over there, could you see 
people around the TV cameras ? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any trouble distinguishing their faces? 

167 
7S1-228 O— 64 — vol. XII 12 



Mr. Beaty. After the lights were on, you couldn't see nothing. 

Mr. Griffin. After the lights were on, you couldn't see anything over there? 

Mr. Beatt. No. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Now, do you recall whether or not Captain Jones instructed 
the men that when Oswald was brought out from the jail office to where you 
men were standing, that you were supposed to begin to start walking alongside of 
Oswald toward the armored car? 

Mr. Beaty. He told us to keep the path open, and then he changed this 
detail here and pushed them all back. 

Mr. Griffin. If all of the members of the press were along the Main Street 
ramp and were over behind, roughly behind the railing, or at least behind 
the TV camera in the direction of the garage area, what function did you 
people who were stationed along where you have marked your "X," that wall 
that you have your "X," and up the Commerce Street ramp, what function 
were you people going to have? 

Mr. Beaty. I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Griffin. You certainly didn't expect that you were going to have any 
trouble from newspaper people, because you were all backed up against the 
wall, weren't you? 

Mr. Beaty. I couldn't tell you, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now. before Ruby shot Oswald, what did you do? 

Mr. Beaty. When? 

Mr. Griffin. Before Ruby shot Oswald. 

Mr. Beaty. When we first, it occurred to me at the time that — you don't 
have policemen for 15 years, you don't have to sit down and draw them a 
diagram to have thejn cover somebody, and Captain Jones said make the way 
open, and it occurred to me that if we had to move around that corner, fine. 
At that time there were people all around here and out in the driveway. 

Mr. Griffin. At the time Captain Jones set you up, there had been people 
there? . 

Mr. Beaty. Yes ; there had. 

Mr. Griffin. You then displaced news people, is that right? 

Mr. Bei\ty. No : whenever Captain Jones come back down, and I think he 
had Sergeant Putnam or Dean, and he instructed them all to get back there. 

Mr. Griffin. The area you are pointing to is on the opposite side from where 
you were? 

Mr. Beaty. That's right. 

Mr. Griffin. Okay. 

Mr. BE14TY. If you go on with your interview, I can tell you what my 
opinion is why we was there. 

Mr. Griffin. That is what I want you to tell me, what your opinion was. 

Mr. Beaty. Well, of course, the people from the press, they brought Oswald 
out here, they all. Captain Jones asked them to please don't ask him no 
questions, and let's get this over with as fast as we can. Those are not his 
exact words, but that is what he meant. So, we all moved back behind this 
line, and as they brought Oswald out to just about the entrance to the Commerce 
Street and Main Street ramp right along here 

Mr. Griffin. Put a circle where Oswald was. 

Mr. Be:aty. The three of them were there along here. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. I have written "OswaJd." 

Mr. Beaty. And, by the way, after that they moved these people back, these 
ofl!icers on the north side of the hallway were moved out into the ramp area here. 

Mr. Griffin. These started to move out? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes, sir ; they did. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how about the people on your side? 

Mr. Beaty. There was only about four of us over there. 

Mr. Griffin. You people stayed where you were? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this. Do you think these people who were 
on the ramp side, which you call the north side 

168 



Mr. Beaty. Yes, sir ; I would call it the north side. 

Mr. Griffin. What you have called the north side opposite where you were 
standing, do you think those people began to move out sort of instinctively? 

Mr. Beaty. No ; they moved out before he got out there. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. 

Mr. Be^4.ty. And I am sure that there were some more officers that, I don't 
know, that were along here. They had two people stationed out here, a reserve 
and a 

Mr. Griffin. Put an "X" where these reserves were. 

Mr. Beaty. To keep these people from coming through here. 

Mr. Griffin. This was between the swinging doors and the main elevators? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. All right, were there two reserve officers? 

Mr. Beaty. No; they had one reserve and one officer stationed here. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Beaty. Yes, and before they brought Oswald out, there was some photog- 
raphers in this area inside the jail office. 

Mr. Griffin. You have placed circles in the jail office where there were 
photographers? 

Mr. Beaty. And they were removed by a uniformed officer and asked to come 
out here, or out here, or back here, and I recall some of them went this way 
and went on out and took their place. 

Mr. Griffin. Some of them went toward the garage area and some on the 
Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Be^aty. Some came back throu'rh these double doors, and were standing 
along this hallway like they might be going to try to photograph through the 
window. I remember one guy had a big shoulder camera and one at — at one 
of these windows here. 

Mr. Griffin. So, is it fair to say that one of the functions you people served 
in standing along the wall that you were on, was to make sure that as these 
photographers cleared out the jail office, they didn't line up along the wall? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes ; also, to double check this double door after he went by, 
and somebody might have gotten instructions, I don't remember whether they 
did or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, detective, after Oswald was shot, did you go into the jail 
office? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you go upstairs with Ruby? 

Mr. Beiaty. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after Ruby shot Oswald? After Ruby was 
taken upstairs? What did you do? 

Mr. Beaty. Captain Jones said, "Do you have a car out," and I told him, 
"Yes, sir." 

He said, "Get about five of these officers," and I don't remember which one, 
"and go to Parkland Hospital and help them with security." And within 5 
minutes after he was shot, we were on our way to Parkland. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember if Sergeant Dean was out there? 

Mr. Beaty. I don't think he was. He might have been. I didn't remember 
seeing him. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember if he went in your group? 

Mr. Beaty. No ; I am pretty sure of both of the detectives in our group. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain at Parkland Hospital? 

Mr. Beaty. Let's see, probably after 2 o'clock, maybe 3 o'clock that afternoon. 

Mr. Griffin. While you were out at Parkland Hospital, did you hear any 
rumors about how Ruby got down to the basement? 

Mr. Beaty. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. When you got back to the police department, did you hear any 
rumors back there as to how Ruby got into the basement? 

Mr. Beiaty. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. How soon after you got back to the police station were you 

169 



asked to prepare a report to Chief Curry? Don't look at this. I want you to 
do this from your own rpcollection. 

Mr. Beaty. Probably the next day. I don't even remember. I couldn't tell 
you. Somebody said, you got to write a report. But this was the second or 
third one. We wrote a little report along as we went to kind of, each day we 
have a daily report we turn in. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you write a report at the end of the day? 

Mr. Beaty. I am not sure whether I did that or not. 

Mr. Gkiffin. Would you do this. After you leave, would you check back at 
the police department and find out if you did write a daily report. 

Mr. Beaty. If I did, it would be a special assignment. It wouldn't have any- 
thing to do with the narcotics. 

Mr. Griffin, Would it have any details of what you did? 

Mr. Beaty. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, I am going to mark this map we have been working with, 
"Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5039." Now, is this 
Exhibit 5039 the document that you have been making marks on during this 
discussion? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes ; it is. 

Mr. Griffin. I wonder if you would sign that and then date it? 

Mr. Beaty. [Signs and dates.] What is the date, the 26th? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. All right, I am going to mark the interview report by 
Agents Dallman and Quigley of the interview with you on December 3, 1963, as 
"Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, 3-26-64 " 

Mr. Beaty. That happened in Garland. 

Mr. Griffin. But we are marking it here in Dallas. 

Mr. Beaty. Okay. 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to mark what purports to be a copy of a letter which 
you prepared to go to Chief Curry, which is dated November 27, 1963, and 
mark that "Dallas, Texas, Detective Beaty, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5041." I want you 
to look at 5041 and tell me if you had a chance to read that over? 

Mr. Beaty. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that a true and accurate copy of a letter that you sent to 
Chief Curry? 

Mr. Bblity. That looks like it might be ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. You have read over both the interview report, Exhibit 5040, 
and this letter. Exhibit 5041? Other than the changes you have already made 
on Exhibit 5040, and the testimony which you have already given here today, 
are there any additions or corrections that you would want to make in either 
of these? 

Mr. Beaty. Not that I can remember or think of. I have thought about it 
some since it happened to see if I could remember anything that I didn't tell the 
FBI agents, and I can't think of a thing. Actually, I didn't see a whole lot of 
the actual shooting. 

Mr. Griffin. Is there anything that you would want to tell the Commission 
that you think would be important to us in connection with our investigation? 

Mr. Beaty. I don't think of a thing. You have covered it pretty well. 

Mr. Gkiffin. Did you and I have any interview of any sort prior to the time 
we took this deposition. 

Mr. Beaty. You talked to me in the hall and said read this, is all. 

Mr. Griffin. I handed you Exhibits 5040 and 5041, but other than giving it to 
you and asking you to read it before the interview? 

Mr. Beaty. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Have you been interviewed by any other member of the Com- 
mission staff? 

Mr. Beaty. You are speaking of the Warren Commission? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Beaty. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, other than the interview that you had with Dallman and 
Quigley on December 3, 1963, do you recall whether you were interviewed by any 
other Federal agent? 

Mr. Beiaty. No ; I am pretty sure I wasn't. 

no 



TESTIMONY OF ALVIN R. BROCK 

The testimony of Alvin R. Brock was taken at 9 :30 p.m., on March 26, 1964, 
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the 
President's Commission. 

Mr. HuBEKT. This is the deposition of Mr. Alvin R. Brock, the patrolman, 
Dallas police department. Mr. Brock, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a mem- 
ber of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. 
Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, 
joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the 
Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, 
I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Brock. I state 
to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, 
evaluate, and report on the facts relating to the assassination of President 
Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In par- 
ticular, as to you Mr. Brock, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what 
facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you 
may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Brock, you have appeared here 
today by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel 
of the President's Commission, to Chief Curry, asking him to make his men 
available. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to 
3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also 
provide that a witness may waive the 3-day written notice if he wishes to do so. 
And now I ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice? 

Mr. Brock. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you stand then and raise your right hand so that I may 
swear you? 

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Brock. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. Please state your name? 

Mr. Brock. Alvin R. Brock. 

Mr. Hubert. Your age? 

Mr. Brock. Twenty-five. 

Mr. Hubert. Where do you reside? 

Mr. Brock. 207 East Place, Ennis, Tex. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your employment? 

Mr. Brock. Patrolman, for the city of Dallas, police department. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been on the Dallas police department? 

Mr. Brock. Three and a half years. 

Mr. Hubert. Prior to that time, how did you make your living? 

Mr. Brock. Worked as assembler in aircraft. 

Mr. HuBEiRT. Assembler — aircraft — what? 

Mr. Brock. As an assembler of aircrafts. 

Mr. Hubert. How long did you work at that? 

Mr. Brock. Once I worked for approximately a year, 10 months, Temco, and 
before that approximately a year and a half at Chance Vought. 

Mr. Hubert. I guess prior to that you were going to school? 

Mr. Brook. Prior to that I worked at Lone Star Gas for approximately a year, 
and high school before that. 

Mr. Hubert. You graduated from high school? 

Mr. Brook. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, what particular part of the police department are you in? 

Mr. Brock. Radio patrol. 

Mr. Hubert. That is under what captain? 

Mr. Brook. I work for Captain Talbert. 

Mr. Hubert. Cecil Talbert? 

Mr. Brock. I don't know his first name. 

Mr. Hubert. Cecil Talbert. And are you in one of the prowl cars? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

171 



Mr. Hubert. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about November the 
24th. What time did you go on duty that day? 

Mr. Brock. 7 :30 a.m. 

Mr. Hubert. Then your shift would have ended 

Mr. Brock. 3 :30. 

Mr. Hubert. P.M.? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Where did you report at 7 :30? 

Mr. Brock. Well, assembly room, I guess is what you call it. We all reported 
there. 

Mr. Hubert. At the Dallas police department? 

Mr. Brock. In the basement of the city hall ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Then you are assigned to your cars and go cruising? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And you had communication by radio, two men 

Mr. Brock. We were working two men. 

Mr. Hubert. Who was with you that day? 

Mr. Brock. M. L. Wise. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you actually get out on the streets and start prow^ling? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Then what happened? 

Mr. Brock. We received a call from the dispatcher to call 511, that is radio 
patrol office. 

Mr. Hubert. And did you do that? 

Mr. Brock. And we called them and they advised us to come on down there as 
soon as we could. 

Mr. Hubert. What time did you get down there? 

Mr. Brock. It was a few minutes after 9. I don't know exactly. 

Mr. Hubert. What prowl ear were you driving? Do you remember the 
number of it? 

Mr. Brock. We were working squad 71. That is the number of the squad, 
not the car. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you have a different car number every day or drive the same 
car usually? 

Mr. Brock. You mean the same 

Mr. HuBB3i,T. Talking about squad 71 — I mean, the automobile has a number 
on it, doesn't it? 

Mr. Brock. Yes ; I don't recall what the number — we usually have the same 
one. 

Mr. Hubert. Same ear? What did you do? Park your car in the 

Mr. Brock. We took it down there and parked it in the alley there just north 
of the — on Commerce at Pearl Street, and walked on down to the city hall. 

Mr. Hubert. You parked it on Pearl Street, or in the alley? 

Mr. Brock. In the alley, just north of Commerce, just off Pearl Street. 

Mr. Hubert. That is the alleyway that runs from Pearl up to the back of the 
city hall building and then makes a right to Main Street? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Has the form of an L-shape, is that right? 

Mr. Brock. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. You put it in that alleyway? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you drive it all the way up that alleyway up there? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir ; it was down close to the street there. 

Mr. Hubert. But, you walked up the alley? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir; we walked back out on the street and then down to the 
building and then 

Mr. Hubert. You didn't go in the building through the back door. 

Mr. Brock. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Through that back door? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you try the back door? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir. 

172 



Mr, HUBEiRT. In other words, you all parked your car near Pearl Street and 
didn't even walk up or ride up the alley at all? 

Mr. Brock. Oh, no ; we walked back out and went down the street sidewalk. 

Mr. Hubert. Went down Pearl Street to Commerce? 

Mr. Brock. Went down Commerce, cut across a parking lot to Commerce, 
down to the city hall that way. 

Mr. Hubert. And you say it was about what time? 

Mr. Brock. A few minutes after 9. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

Mr. Brock. I don't know exactly. 

Mr. Hubert. Whom did you reix)rt to ? What did you do ? 

Mr. Brock. We reported to 511 patrol oflBce, to Lieutenant Pierce. 

Mr. Hubert. That is Rio Pierce? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Rio Pierce, I think you call him? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What orders did he give you? 

Mr. Brock. He told us just to sit down there for a few minutes, until they 
decided what they wanted us to do. Then about 9:20, I guess it was, he told 
me to go down to the basement and report to Sergeant Dean and Sergeant 
Putnam. 

Mr. Hubert. That is Patrick Dean, I think? 

Mr. Brock. P. T. Dean. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you report to him ? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Then what happened? 

Mr. Brock. Sergeant Putnam assigned me on what they call the elevator 
area there, there in the basement at the east end of the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. About what time were you posted there? 

Mr. Brock. It would be about 9 :30, I would imagine. 

Mr. Hubert. What were your orders? 

Mr. Brock. To not let anyone in except police officers and members of the 
press. 

Mr. Hubert. Into what? 

Mr. Brock. Into the basement area. 

Mr. Hubert. From what? 

Mr. Brock. Well, about from anywhere — see there was an elevator there 
that goes to the next floor on it — in the municipal building. 

Mr. Hubert. You are talking about the service elevator, are you? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir ; there is a service elevator, and the other elevators, they 
were not working, but the service elevator was the one. 

Mr. Hubert. How do you know they weren't working? 

Mr. Brock. Well, I presumed they wasn't. They never did open the time I 
was — actual time I was there. 

Mr. HuBETRT. Were you aware of a fire staircase in that general area? 

Mr. Brock. There was a, I believe it is, right to the — right around the corner 
from the elevators on the 

Mr. Hxjbert. Be to your 

Mr. Brock. Be to the left of the elevators, I guess it would be then. 

Mr. Hubert. If you were facing the east elevator? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir; I was in a position where I could watch it and the 
elevator, too. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I want — you know, it won't show up on here, so, I want to 
show you a map or chart of the basement area and in order to identify it so that 
the record may show that we are both talking about the same thing, I am going 
to ask you to sign this with me, and I am marking it, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 
1964." This will be Exhibit 5113, deposition of A. R. Brock. I am signing my 
name beneath that and I'll ask you to sign your name just for the purposes 
of identification. And now have a look at the map and I would just like you 
to put, not one spot, because obviously, you can't stand in one spot, but just 
sort of draw by making sort of an area, circle or oblong just the way you 
walked and watched. 

173 



Mr. Brock. What I done, I was in a position here. I didn't move out of it. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, you can mark it then. Just put a circle. 

Mr. Brock. I would stay in this position where I could watch the stairs 
and the elevator, too. 

Mr. Hubert. You are facing, most of the time, toward Main Street? 

Mr. Brock. Well, I would be facing one or the other there. 

Mr. Hubert. Where you marked the circle, I am drawing a line from it, 
then I am writing, "Position of A. R. Brock during the time he was guarding 
elevators and staircase." Right? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I am putting a circle around that language and connecting it 
by a line to the circle that you drew showing your position. I think you have 
testified that all the time you were there, the regular service elevators, which 
are on this chart, denoted as elevators Nos. 1 and 2, weren't working at all? 

Mr. Brock. They never opened them the entire time. 

Mr. Hubert. Did anybody go up or down the staircase here, which I am 
marking by putting in "X"? 

Mr. Brock. No one went in or dowTistairs on the staircase. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever — did you observe this first aid station? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see anybody come in or go out of that the whole time 
you were there? 

Mr. Brock. At the time that I was assigned there, the doctor was in the 
first aid station, and Sergeant Putnam contacted him and told him he would 
have to leave the basement area. 

Mr. Hubert. So, he got out? 

Mr. Brock. No one entered after that. 

Mr. Hubert. By the way, I think you stated the time that you were posted, 
but let's repeat it to be sure. 

Mr. Brock. I think it was about 9 :30. 

Mr. Hubert. And you stayed there how long? 

Mr. Brock. Oh, I believe it was 10 :45 when I left there. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, now. Was there any — any people either entered or 
left this service elevator during the time you were there? 

Mr. Brock. When I first got down there there were three city employees and 
the elevator operator standing there at the door of the elevator around in 
front, looking around, just seeing what was going on and shortly after I got 
there, I told them they would have to leave the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. Were they in some kind of a janitorial uniform so that you 
could tell that they were employees? 

Mr. Brock. I have seen them before. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know their names? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir ; I don't know. 

Mr. Hubert. Men and women? 

Mr. Brock. There was one woman. I haven't seen her before, but from 
what I gather, the way she was talking to the others, she was a telephone opera- 
tor there at the city hall. 

Mr. Hubert. White woman? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Were they all white i)eople? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir ; there was one building engineer. Engineer, I believe, 
is what he was called — a white man. There was a Negro, two Negroes, one was 
the elevator operator, one parked cars in the basement there. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, you made them all go upstairs? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did they come down any more? 

Mr. Brock. The elevator came down one other time. Sergeant Putnam 
brought one of the TV men over there, wanted to go up the fourth — fifth floor 
to do some kind of work with the equipment there, and the elevator come and 
picked him up and went up and brought him back in a few minutes, and that 
was the only person went up or down the elevator. 

174 



Mr. Hubert. As long as you were there? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you all give the elevator operator any instructions about 
what he was to do? 

Mr. Brock. We told him to take it up on the first floor and not bring it back 
in the basement, that is, open the door of it in the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. That was after the TV man had been brought up and down? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, at that point, after the TV man had been brought 
up and down, he was issued instructions, "Now, don't come down here any more." 

Mr. Brock. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And all the time you stayed there he didn't? 

Mr. Brock. It didn't come down any more. 

Mr. Hubert. Who got off of that spot at 10 :45? 

Mr. Brock. Sergeant Putnam. 

Mr. Hubert. Where did he put you after that? 

Mr. Brock. He assigned me over to a traffic intersection where the auto was 
going to take to the city jail — county jail. 

Mr. Hubert. And you went and helped there? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. You drove? 

Mr. Brock. My partner drove ; M. L. Wise drove my car. 

Mr. Hubert. Dropped you off? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Where did he drop you off? 

Mr. Brock. Elm and Ervay. 

Mr. Hubert. And you stayed there for how long? 

Mr. Brock. Until about 11 :30. 

Mr. Hubert. Who relieved you then? 

Mr. Brock. 11 :30 my partner picked me up and reported to Parkland. 

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay at Parkland? What time did you get 
there and what time did you leave, we'll put it that way. 

Mr. Brock. I would just be guessing. Stayed there probably an hour or hour 
and a half. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see any reserve oflScers around? 

Mr. Brock. Where? 

Mr. Hubert. Parkland? 

Mr. Brock. There was lots of oflScers out there. I don't remember seeing any 
reserve ofl5cers out there. 

Mr. Hubert. Actually, can you tell the difference from the uniforms? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What? The badge? 

Mr. Brock. They have a patch on their arm that says, "Dallas Police Reserve 
OflBcer," or "Reserve OflScer," of some sort and they don't carry guns. All they 
carry is a nightstick. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a reserve oflScer by the name of Nevpman? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir ; I don't. I don't know any of them, I don't guess, by name, 
that I can recall right now. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Did you see another oflBcer on duty in the basement 
but closer to the ramp that runs between Main and Commerce? 

Mr. Brock. There was a, I believe, a reserve officer standing somewhere in 
this area. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, the arrow points — let the record show that the arrow 
pointed to by the witness is being marked by me with a circle, and I am writing, 
"Position of Reserve Officer, as testified to by A. R. Brock," and I am putting 
a circle around that language and connecting it with this smaller circle. Do you 
know that reserve officer's name? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir ; I just noticed him there. I didn't 

Mr. Hubert. Did he stay there about the same time you did? 

Mr. Brock. I believe he was still there or somewhere in that area when 
I left, and there was another reserve officer assigned in this area here [indi- 

175 



eating], because he was walking around, back and forth in this area around 
the staircase and around where I was assigned, also. 

Mr. HuBEKT. Well, suppose I draw a line, I will start the line with "1," and 

Mr. Brock. I would say he went over in this area rather than come up on 
it this way. 

Mr. Hubert. He went out to about the place marked "2" and I am putting 
the number "1" and "2" in a circle. Now, the line "1" and "2" is where you 
saw this reserve oflBcer walking up and down? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. But, you don't know his name? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Was he there when you first got there? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. He came later? Was he there when you left? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. Now, I think you have read these two statements? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I want to mark them for identification as follows : "An FBI 
report of an interview of you made by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin on 
December 4, 1963, for identification. I am marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 
1964. Exhibit No. 5114, deposition of A. R. Brock." And signing my name 
underneath it. It has two pages, and so, I am placing my initials in the left- 
hand corner on the second page, and I'm also marking for identification what 
seems to be a copy of a letter dated November 26, addressed to Chief Curry, 
the original, apparently, has been signed by you, and I am marking it, "Dallas, 
Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5115, deposition of A. R. Brock." I am sign- 
ing my name. It has only one page. Now, I understand that you have read both 
of these documents? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you any comment to make? I would like you to express 
yourself as to whether those documents represent the truth and are they com- 
plete, or do they have omissions or should anything be deleted as wrong or just 
tell me your thoughts about the documents dealing first with the FBI report 
which has been marked "5114"? 

Mr. Brock. These are true, to the best of my memory. 

Mr. HUBE21T. Is that true of 5115, too? 

Mr. Brock. That would be the other one? Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you any comment to make on these? Do you think they 
represent what you know? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir; they — I think they represent all that I know about it. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you say that between those two documents, to wit, 5114, 
5115, and the material we got on the chart and your deposition, itself, that we 
now know just everything you know about the matter? 

Mr. Brock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir; do you care to add anything else in any way? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir ; I don't know of anything else that would 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, have you been interviewed by me or any other 
member of the Commission staff prior to the starting of this deposition? 

Mr. Brock. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, that's all. Thank you. 



TESTIMONY OF DETECTIVE B. H. COMBEST 

The testimony of Detective B. H. Combest was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26, 
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the 
President's Commis.ston. 

176 



Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of B. H. Corabest. Mr. Combest, my name 
is Leon D. Hubert, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general coun- 
sel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 
11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the 
rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with 
the Executive order and the joint resolution I have been authorized to take a 
sworn deposition from you. 

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascer- 
tain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of Presi- 
dent Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In par- 
ticular as to you, Mr. Combest, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine 
what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts 
you may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Combest, you apiieared here 
today by virtue of a general request made to your Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee 
Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission. Under the 
rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice 
prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules, however, also provide that a 
witness may waive this notice. Are you willing now to waive the 3-day notice? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you raise your right hand to be sworn, please? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Combest. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you please state your name, sir? 

Mr. Combest. Billy H. Combest. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, your name is Billy and not William? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir ; it is Billy. 

Mr. Hubert. And your age? 

Mr. Combest. Thirty-three. 

Mr. Hubert. Where do you reside, sir? 

Mr. Combest. 2808 Linhaven, Mesquite, Tex. 

Mr. Hubert. Mesquite, Tex. 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation, sir? 

Mr. Combest. Detective for the city of Dallas Police Department. 

Mr. Hubert. And how long have you been so employed? 

Mr. Combest. With the department a little over 9 years. I have been a 
detective about 4 years. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you on duty on Sunday, November 24th, 1963? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir, I was. 

Mr. Hubert. Was that one of your regular working days or had you been 
called in specially? 

Mr. Combest. No, my regular working day. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Hubert. How well did you know him? 

Mr. Combest. Well, I knew him very well by sight. I had seen him numerous 
occasions before, over a period of approximately 4, 4i/^ years. I knew him 
through business with the — checking his location for violations, routine checks 
by the police. 

Mr. Hubert. Would there be any doubt that you would recognize him as soon 
as you saw him? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. You would recognize him even in a crowd of people? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir; I would have. 

Mr. Hubert. Would it make any difference in your recognition if he had a 
hat on or not? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Combest, I ask you to identify some documents and 
in order for the record to show that we are talking about the same thing, I 
am going to mark them. I now mark what appears to be a copy of a letter 

177 



dated November 26, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, chief of police, and the 
original apparently was signed by you, as, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 19&4. 
Exhibit No. 5099. Deposition of B. H. Combest." I am signing my name Leon 
D. Hubert, Jr., on the first page. On the second page, I am placing my initials 
in the lower right-hand corner. I am also marking for identification what pur- 
ports to be a report of the FBI of an interview with you by Special Agents 
Dallman and Quigley on December 2, 1963, consisting of four pages, putting on 
this first page, in the right side margin the following, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 
1964. Exhibit No. 5101. Deposition of B. H. Combest." I am signing my 
name on the first page below that and placing my initials in the lower right- 
hand corner of the three succeeding pages. Now, Mr. Combest, you have read 
the letter dated November 26, addressed to Chief Curry, which I have marked 
Exhibit 5099. Does that document represent the truth, so far as you know it? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you any comments to make about it? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now let's turn to a document which I have marked 
5101, which is the FBI report, and I will ask you if you have read that? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir; I have. 

Mr. Hubert. If you have any comments to make on that, corrections, dele- 
tions, anything been omitted? 

Mr. Combest. Well 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, I want to know whether this represents a true, 
full statement of the interview and what you said, or didn't say, and let's have 
an explanation of it. 

Mr. Combest. Okay, sir. On the fourth page there, the third paragraph 
where 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Mr. Combest. They relate to the person named as Newman. They misunder- 
stood me, evidently, on that. He does work at the Theatre Lounge as it so 
states there, but Ruby does not have anything to do with the Theatre Lounge. 
This is another so-called strip joint in the downtown area. 

Mr. Hubert. Here is the sentence we are talking about. "He did recall, 
however, that an indvidual by the name of Newman, first name unknown, was 
formerly district supervisor for the liquor control board, worked for Ruby at 
the Theatre Lounge." Now, your statement is that that is an incorrect state- 
ment of what you said? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you correct it, please? 

Mr. Combest. Well, the question was did I know of any police oflScers that 
had worked for Ruby. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Mr. Combest. At the time I told him, "No," I did not and I explained pos- 
sibly where they had gotten their information was that a reserve police officer 
had made a statement to .some news media that he had worked for Jack Ruby, 
but he is not a regular policeman for the city of Dallas, and I also told him 
that possibly what they had heard that this L. L. Newman, who formerly worked 
for the Texas Liquor Control Board was working at the Theatre Lounge in the 
downtown area, and possibly that was what they had heard. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you actually told them that there were two 
Newmans involved, one who had been a reserve officer 

Mr. Combest. No, sir ; I do not recall the name of the reserve officer. 

Mr. Hubert. Two different individuals, one, who had been a reserve officer 
and one who had been with the Texas Liquor Control Board? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And your statement to them was that possibly what they were 
thinking about when they were questioning you was that the Newman who had 
worked for the Texas Liquor Control Board was the one you thought had once 
worked for the Theatre Lounge? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, did Ruby have any connection with the Theatre Lounge? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir; none whatsoever. 

178 



Mr. Hubert. Who did, as a matter of fact? 

Mr. CoMBEST. It is either Abe or Barney Weinstein. One of the brothers 
owned the Theatre Lounge. One of the brothers owns the Colony Club. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I think that perhaps I should call your attention to the 
next sentence, too, because you may want to correct it in the light of this 
testimony. The next sentence which is the last sentence of the very top 
paragraph of the last page of Exhibit 5101 reads as follows: "Newman termi- 
nated his employment with the State about a year and a half ago and it 
would have been possibly about that time that he started working for Ruby." 

Mr. CoMBEST. No ; there again, evidently they misunderstood me. It was 
possibly that time that he went to work for the Theatre Lounge. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Have you any other comments to make with ref- 
erence to the FBI report, which is Exhibit 5101? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Well, I believe it is on page 3. first paragraph, in — where they 
say, I didn't — didn't observe Ruby make any statement at the time of the 
shooting, could not recall Ruby making statements. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, I understand that you wish to comment on 
or make some correction in a sentence on the third page of Exhibit 5101, 
which sentence begins on the sixth line from the top of the page and reads as 
follows : "As best he could recall Ruby had what could be described as a deter- 
mined look, or grimace on his face, and he could recall Ruby making no state- 
ment in conjunction with his action." Now, I understand you want to comment 
on that sentence? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir ; it may be correct as it is said there. I don't — the 
way I was — the way I say it is not exactly the way I meant it. I told them 
he was talking. He was making statements but I could not recall anything 
word by word to tell them or any exact words that he said at the time. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, I suppose that is true now, that you can't recall any 
exact words that he said at the time. 

Mr. Combest. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. But, can you tell us without using the exact words, the sense 
of what he was saying? 

Mr. Combest. Well, it appeared to me that at the time he was cursing Os- 
wald, but again, I wasn't close enough to hear the words, his exact words. I 
could tell he was talking, tell he was making some statements, but I cannot 
recall anything he said exactly. I wasn't that close. 

Mr. Hubert. I see. In other words, what you are really changing to, instead 
of the affirmative statement that you couldn't recall Ruby making any state- 
ment, you are changing it to say you think he was saying something but you 
couldn't hear? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir; that's right. 

Mr. Hubert. What other corrections do you have then? 

Mr. Combest. That's all I have, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. With the corrections that you have noted in the FBI report, 
which have been marked for identification as Exhibit 5101, did you consider 
that the FBI report is a fair statement of what you said to the FBI agent 
involved? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir; I do. 

Mr. Hubert. And it represents the truth? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, and so that the record may show that we are both si)eaking 
of the same document, I would like you to sign your name below mine here on 
Exhibit 5099 and initial the second page below my initial, and do the same 
thing with Exhibit 5101. 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. Did you say that there was four pages on that earlier? 
There are five, I believe, aren't there? 

Mr. Hubert. Beg your pardon, sure are. It has been brought to my attention 
that Exhibit 5101, which I have previously identified as having four pages, in 
fact, has five, and I notice now that I have failed to place my initial on the 
second page, apparently having missed it, so, I now place my initial on the 
second page. All being initialed now. I have marked for identification a 
chart, or floor plan of the Dallas Police Department basement area showing 

179 



the jail oflBce, the parking area, down ramp from the Main Street, the upper 
ramp to Commerce Street, and for the purpose of identification with this testi- 
mony, I have marked this document as follows: "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 
1964. Exhibit 5100. Deposition of B. H. Combest." I have signed my name 
imder that in order also that we may recognize that we are talking about the 
same document. I will ask you to put your signature below mine on that 
document, sir. 

When did you first learn about the time of the plan to transfer Oswald? 

Mr. Combest. Sometime late the preceding day that I heard it through the 
news media that we were going to transfer him the next morning, and I don't 
recall the exact time, but the time of transfer was supposed to be pretty early 
the next morning, the way I understood it. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. You mean 5 or 6? 

Mr. Combest. Well, 7 or 8. 

Mr. Hubert. What time did you come on duty? 

Mr. Combest. I believe it was 9 o'clock in the morning. 

Mr. Hubert. Didn't your shift go on at 7, your regular shift? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. On Sunday it begins at 

Mr. Combest. We have a 9 to 5, and a 10 to 6 squad working Sundays. 

Mr. Hxtbert. Well, I know that, the FBI report indicates that. But, you 
reported to central police headquarters at 7 a.m.? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir ; I overlooked that. 

Mr. Hubert. That is incorrect then? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. So, you want to change the first sentence of the third paragraph 
on the first page? Exhibit 5101 which states you reported at 7 a.m., to show 
that you reported at 9 a.m., on that Sunday, November 24? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any particular assignment as to the transfer of 
Oswald? 

Mr, Combest. No, sir ; not before, just shortly before the transfer. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, from 9 o'clock when you reported until you 
were given the assignment which we are going to in a minute, you went about 
your normal duties? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. Now, who gave you that particular assignment and what was it? 

Mr. Combest. Well, it was Captain Jones who works in the forgery bureau 
of the Dallas Police Department. He came through the basement of the jail 
and talked to Detective Beaty and OflScer J. D. Hutchinson and, I believe, 
some other ofiicers there at the time, and told us to remain in the basement 
and we would be given more specific orders shortly. 

Mr. Hubert. What time was that about? 

Mr. Combest. I would have to refer to my letter there. I don't remember 
at this time. 

Mr. Hubert. The letter says 10:50 approximately 10.50, is that about right? 

Mr. Combest. Yes. 

Mr. HuBEiRT. What did you do? 

Mr. Combest. We remained there in the basement and shortly Captain Jones 
came back off the elevator with what appeared to be all the onduty officers 
in the building at that time. He told us to go outside the jail office in the 
parking area and into the basement, itself, and there he would station us. 

Mr. HuBFRT. Did he do so? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir ; he did. When he got outside he told us to form 
a line either side of the passageway leading into the ramp where the vehicles 
were parked to transfer Oswald, and he gave us orders not to let anyone rlish 
in, not let the lines close in. He also told us to make sure that they didn't 
fall in behind him, to follow him out after they had passed. 

Mr. Hubert. So, there was a line formed on either side of the jail corridor 
from the jail door to the basement area where the car was to transport Oswald? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, if you will step over here, please, and have a look at this 

180 



mockup here. First of all, this is the inside jail oflBce. This is really — this is 
the corridor swinging door. This is the outside corridor of the jail door. 
Now, looking at this first, try to fix your position and then I'm going to ask 
you to place your position on this map once you have related this map to the 
mockup, so we will have a record on this map of where you were. 

Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir ; would have been standing just about here [indicat- 
ing], just almost to the corner. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I am placing — is this it? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Httbert. I am placing a circle where you say you were standing. That 
is just off the corner of the intersection formed by the jail corridor and the 
basement ramp, but toward the swinging door in the basement and the jail 
office? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Httbert. Right? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Htjbert. And, I'm going to put there, "Position of Combest as stationed 
by Jones." Is that correct? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I am circling that language and attaching the language to the 
circle that you have indicated. Now, what time did you reach the position 
that we just marked on the map? 

Mr. CoMBEST. It would have been approximately 20 minutes before the 
shooting, which would have placed it at 11, wouldn't it? 11 a.m. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you remain at that position until the shooting? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Hubert. Of course, I understand that you didn't remain absolutely still, 
blit yon didn't walk around? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir; I stayed in that immediate area right there. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember who was on your right? 

Mr. CoAfBEST. R. L. Lowery. Detective R. L. Lowery. 

Mr. Hubert. I am going to mark his position. That would have put him 
almost 

Mr. Combest. Right at the corner. 

Mr. Hubert. Right at the corner? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Httbert. I am marking that, encircling the language, "Position of R. L. 
Lowery," and do you remember who was to your left? 

Mr. Combest. Detective Beaty, Detective B. L. Beaty. 

Mr. Hubert. You were facing in the direction of the Main Street ramp, in 
the parking area on the Main Street side of the building? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And you were there for approximately 20 minutes? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Could you see out into the parking area on the Main Street side 
of the building? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir; I could not. They completely blocked me, television 
cameras and newsmen on this side — on this side of the rail, and of down in 
the basement, itself. 

Mr. Hubert. I am marking an area which I am going to call "area B," with 
an oblong circle. Is that the area you are talking about? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And you say that "area B," had television cameras and personnel 
attending them? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And other people there, so that you were unable to see into the 
parking area, is that correct? 

Mr. Combest. That's correct. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I'm going to mark another area, "area A," and ask if 
there were any people standing in that area? 

Mr. Combest. Yes ; there were. 

Mr. Hubert. Roughly, how many? 

181 



Mr. CoMBEST. There were several officers standing here [indicating]. There 



were some 

Mr. Hubert. When you say "here," you are just pointing to the Commerce 
Street side of the area that I have marked "area A"? 
Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir; also down the line. 

Mr. HuBEBT. In other words, they were on the opposite side of the corridor from 
you? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir. 

Mr. HuBEKT. A semicircle curving toward Commerce Street? 
Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And I'm marking a line, which I am going to start off at a point 
called "1," and have it curve over to a point called "2," is that approximately 
the line you are talking about? 
Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, on that line from "1," to "2" you say there were a number 
of detectives, or members of the police department? 
Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize any of them? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Well, I remember "Blackie,'' that is the nickname, Harrison. 
Mr. Hubert. That is W. J. Harrison? 
Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir ; I believe it is. 
Mr. Hubert. Where was he, about? 

Mr. Combest. I don't recall exactly. I know that he was on that side, and 
I lost contact with him as soon as Oswald started out. I don't remember if he 
had moved, or if he was still standing directly across. 

Mr. Hubert. He was in front of the people that I have marked here in 
"area B," and "area A"? 
Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, other than the detective, how many people do you suppose 
were in that "area A," right back of the curving line marked "1" to "2"? 

Mr. Combest. It would be an estimate on it at this time. I don't recall. There 
were several. I would say 15, at least. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you think they were standing shoulder to shoulder? 
Mr. Combest. Yes ; it was pretty crowded all the way around. 
Mr. Hubert. That would make about what, two or three ranks of people? 
Mr. Combest. I don't recall exactly. I know there was a very large crowd 
in the basement that day. 

Mr. Hubert. You are talking about the whole basement? 
Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Were there any people in the area which I am marking roughly 
by an oblong figure, "area C," which is the ramp leading from the parking area 
into Main Street, Commerce Street ramp? 
Mr. Combest. Yes, sir; there were. 
Mr. Hubert. Did you go in there, too? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir; there were several people there, newsmen and also, 
several officers stationed in that area out there. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, were the television lights on all the time you were standing 
there? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Hubert. Did they bother you? 
Mr. Combest. Yes, sir ; they did. 
Mr. Hubert. In what way? 

Mr. Combest. Well, when we first came downstairs it was a little hard to 
distinguish faces in this area here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. "Area B," the witness is pointing to "area B." 
Mr. Combest. And until you got used to them it was pretty hard to look into 
them. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you get used to them? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir ; I was pretty well used to them at the time the actual 
transfer took place. 
Mr. Hubert. So, you could distinguish faces of people in "area B"? 

182 



Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Could you distinguish faces in "area A"? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. The lights gave you no trouble by the time the transfer actually 
took place, is that correct? 

Mr. Ck)MBE8T. Yes, sir; that's correct. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. When did you first see Ruby in that crowd? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Just as they started to lead Oswald past me, at the corner 
ther'e I observed him lunge from the crowd. Almost the whole line of i>eople 
pushed forward when Oswald started to leave the jail office, the door, the hall — 
all the newsmen were poking their sound mikes across to him and asking ques- 
tions, and they were everyone sticking their flashbulbs up and around and over 
him and in his face. I don't — when he first lunged forward I don't think anyone 
noticed him. I didn't until he came apart from the crowd and continued on 
towards Oswald. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, did he come from the area — we have marked on this Exhibit 
5100, as "area A," or as "area B," sir? 

Mr. CoMBEST. The best I could tell he would be coming approximately half 
way between them there, between what you have marked as "area A," and 
"area B." 

Mr. Hubert. Sort of from the comer there? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I would like for you to take the pen and mark an "X" on the spot 
that you first saw Ruby. 

Mr. Combest. About approximately [indicating], because 

Mr. Hubert. This was really the front line "1," through "2." 

Mr. Combust. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And I'm writing on the map, "Position where Ruby was first 
seen by Combest." Was he standing still then? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir; he was stepping forward and — or lunging forward, I 
guess would be the best way to put it. 

Mr. Hubert. You had not seen him, of course, prior to that moment? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir ; I had not. 

Mr. Hubert. Had you seen him in th'e crowd at all ? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir ; I had not. 

Mr. Hubert. Had you seen him coming down ? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir ; when I was standing with the crowd I couldn't see 
the ramp there, the Main Street ramp. 

Mr, Hubert. You could see a part of it, couldn't you, the bottom? 

Mr. Combest. Well, no, sir; it slanted up and they had an air conditioner 
sitting across here where you have to be almost in your — standing directly in 
the bottom of the ramp you couldn't see the top of it very clearly. 

Mr. Hubert. But, you testified that you knew Ruby's face well enough so 
that you could distinguish it in a crowd? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. You had looked into that crowd and your eyes had become ac- 
customed to the lights? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I ask you if you saw him in the crowd before he lunged 
forward ? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you think you would have seen him had he been in that crowd 
during the 15 minutes or so prior to that shot, the shooting? 

Mr. Combest. Quite possibly if he had been there very long I believe I would 
have spotted him. I might not have, but knowing that he didn't belong there 
I believe I would have spotted him right off. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, what precautions were taken to assure that people 
who did not belong there would not be there? 

Mr. Combest. Well, everyone that went out into the basement from the jail 
oflSce had to have the press card, proper identification showing that they were 
members of the press and police officers. Other than that no one was admitted 
to the basement parking area. 

183 

731-228 0—64— VOL XII 13 



Mr. HuBEBT. What kind of press cards were honored, and what were dis- 
honored ? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Well, most of the news personnel there had the — had a press 
card for that — I don't remember the wording. It was something about — "Presi- 
dential press party," or something that they had. Of course, it was recognized 
and then any other card that did have their picture on it, and it had to say 
they were a member of a press, any newspaper. I remember the Oklahoma City 
newspaper came in, and they were admitted with their press cards. 

Mr. Hubert. Did they have to have their picture on the press cards? 

Mr. Combest. The ones I checked, I remember now I wasn't actually stationed 
there at the cars. There were two uniformed officers here who were actually 
doing the checking. Of course, I did check some to expedite travel through that 
narrow corridor. 

Mr. Hubert. What I'm trying to get at, there were no particular press cards 
issued for this particular occasion? 

Mr. Combest. Not that I recall ; no, sir. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember any instances in which you were involved or 
in which you observed in which persons who were not properly — who didn't have 
a press card, were removed or questioned? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir ; in my letter there to Chief Curry I recall there was a 
girl that worked at the police information desk, which is in the basement, by the 
records bureau, had went out into the basement, at least on one occasion to 
summon oflBcers that were wanted on the telephone. On the next time that I 
noticed her start to go into there, she was stopped by Sergeant Putnam, as I 
recall it. He advised her that she would not go into the basement if she had 
messages to officers that were in the basement, and she was not to leave her 
assignment behind the information desk until the transfer was over. Also, to 
a civilian employee that worked in the jail booking oflSce proper. He had came 
out into the parking basement, appeared to have a look around to see what 
was going on. He was told to get back behind the desk in the jail booking oflBce 
and remain there until after the transfer was over. Also, one other incident, 
I think I have also put in my letter there and regarding a reporter for the Okla- 
homa City News, I believe his name is Jim Standard. He did not have a press 
card. He was stopped and questioned, but he did have proper identification 
to prove that he did work for the Oklahoma City newspaper. He had a hos- 
pitalization card made out to a group policy of this newspaper in Oklahoma 
City. Had some letters and correspondence to him, addressed to him at that 
location, and after convincing myself and Beaty, he convinced Captain Talbert 
that he was a legitimate member of the press and he was admitted. Two or 
3 days after the incident I was in Oklahoma City and I saw the article he had 
written showing this incident in Dallas and his picture was also in the Okla- 
homa City paper, and I remembered him. I recognized him. And he wrote a 
pretty good article on the security in the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to Ruby after the shooting? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear him say anything? 

Mr. Combest. Again, I heard him talking when he came into the jail office 
proper, where the booking office is located As I recall it, they laid him on 
the floor to put the handcuffs on him more securely. He was talking then as 
they led him past the spot where Oswald was laying, near the elevator, to take 
him to jail. He was also talking. He was looking in the direction of Oswald 
and was talking to the officers that were leading him away. I don't recall any 
specific statement he made. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear Oswald say anything? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir. He — I didn't hear him say a word hardly, after he 
had been shot. He was moaning at the time Jimmy Leavelle, Graves, and I 
laid him down on the floor and removed the handcuffs that he had on him. 

Mr. Hubert. That was in the jail office? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. At the time I asked him and talked to him trying to 
get him to make a statement to me at the time. Especially, after I realized how 
serious the wound was. When we first asked him he appeared to comprehend 
what I was saying. 

184 



Mr. Hubert. What did you ask him? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Well, I told him was there anything that he wanted me to tell 
anybody or was there anything he wanted to say right now before it was too 
late, and I don't remember my — exactly the words that I did say to him, but 
after I realized the seriousness of the wound, of course, trying to let him know 
if he was ever going to say anything he was going to have to say it then. 

Mr. Hubert. You thought he was dying? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Hubert. And do you think you used language to him to convey to him your 
idea that he was dying? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you get any indication that he actually understood what 
you were trying to convey to him? 

Mr. Combest. When I first started asking him he did. He looked up at me, 
seemed to recognize that I — who was talking to him. 

Mr. Hubert. You don't mean that he recognized you as a person? 

Mr. Combest. He recognized that I was the person talking to him. 

Mr. Hubert. But, he didn't say anything? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir ; just shook his head and I said, '"Do you have anything 
you want to tell us now," and he shook his head. 

Mr. Hubert. He did not say the word "No"? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir; he did not say anything at all. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you indicate to him that if he had any accomplices or wanted 
to clarify the shooting of the President, that he had better do it right quick? 

Mr. Combest. Not in those words. I didn't mention "accomplice," or anything. 
I was real excited at the time but I kept talking to him as long as I thought that 
he would try to answer me, hoping that he would give a dying declaration on 
the shooting. 

Mr. Hubert. And you think you used language suflBciently clear to him to 
indicate to him that in your opinion he was dying and on account of the fact 
that he was dying it was just about the last time he would have a chance to say 
anything about the shooting of the President, or the shooting? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir ; that's correct. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Ruby thereafter? 

Mr. Combest. What was the question, sir? 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Ruby, thereafter? 

Mr. Combest. I didn't see him until after he had passed through the jail oflSee. 
Now, in the jail elevator. The next time I saw him at the preliminary hearing 
in Judge Brown's oflBce in the court house. 

Mr. Hubert. You didn't hear him say anything else? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Had you heard anything that would indicate to you that any 
member of the police department actually saw Ruby in the garage prior to the 
shooting? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir ; not on this day, this particular day. 

Mr. Hubert. I am talking about this day. 

Mr. Combest. No. sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did any member of the police department ask you whether you 
had seen Ruby prior to the shooting? 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Who was that? 

Mr. Combest. Lieutenant Revill, Jack Revill and Lieutenant Cornwall. Now, 
they were members of a group that were investigating within the police depart- 
ment, and I was interrogated by them as to if I had seen him that day. 

Mr. Hubert. And your answer was the same as it was 

Mr. Combest. Yes, sir ; it was "no." 

Mr. Hubert. Was there any suggestion by these gentlemen or anybody else 
that you should say that you had not seen him? 

Mr. Combest. No, sir ; none whatsoever. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you any other statements or comments that you would 
like to make that have not been said or reported in any way that you know of 
by you concerning the matter that we have been talking about this morning? 

185 



Mr. CoMBEST. No, sir ; I don't know. 

Mr. Hubert. It is your opinion, and concerning your letter, which has been 
identified as 5099, the FBI report of the interview with you which has been 
identified as 5101, and this deposition today represents all you know about this, 
completely? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir ; it does. 

Mr. Hubert. And all of it is correct and true? 

Mr. CoMBEST. Yes, sir ; it is. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir. Now, has there been any interview between me 
and you, or you and any other member of the Commission's staff other than 
this deposition this morning? 

Mr. CoMBEST. No, sir ; there have not. 

Mr. Hubert. Thank you very much, sir. 



TESTIMONY OF KENNETH HUDSON CROY 

The testimony of Kenneth Hudson Croy was taken at 10 :30 p.m., on March 26, 
1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's 
Commission. 

Mr. Griffin. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory 
staff to the General Counsel of the President's Commission on the assassination 
of President Kennedy. This Commission was set up under Presidential Resolu- 
tion No. 11130, signed by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, and also pur- 
suant to a joint resolution of Congress No. 137. As a result of this Presidential 
Executive order and the Presidential resolution, the Commission has been given 
authority to promulgate certain rules of procedure, and I have been authorized 
in accordance with those rules to take your sworn deposition, Mr. Croy. 

I want to explain to you a little bit first before we go forward with the 
deposition of what this testimony, why we are taking the testimony. The Com- 
mission has been set up for the purpose of investigating, evaluating, and reporting 
back to the President on all of the facts surrounding the assassination of 
President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. We are 
particularly concerned here today in calling you, with delving into the events 
surrounding Oswald's death, although if you have any other information that 
you feel would be useful to us in any other areas of our inquiry, we would like 
very much to have that. 

Now, I also want to explain to you, Mr. Croy, that you have been asked to 
appear here today as a result of a letter which was sent by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, 
who is the general counsel of the Commission, to Chief Curry, and your name was 
listed on that and Chief Curry arranged to set up the schedule. I should tell you 
that under the rules of the Commission you are actually entitled to get a 3-day 
written notice before we can require you to appear here. However, we do have 
a provision in the rules that permit you to waive the notice if you are agreeable 
to it. 

Now, the first thing I want to do is ask you if you would like us to send you 
the letter, and I want to make it clear that we do send these letters out as a 
routine matter, and if for any reason you feel that you would like to have 
advance notice and so forth, that we haven't really given you, why feel free to 
tell me now. 

Mr. Croy. No ; I would just have to come back down here. 

Mr. Griffin. Then you are willing to waive? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. I also want to explain to you that you have a right to be 
represented by counsel before this Commission and again, many of the people 
are represented by counsel. I want you to understand that we, in fact, encourage 
people to come here with an attorney if they feel there is any reason at all 

186 



that it might be useful to them. I see that you are not here with an attorney 
right now, and I presume that this is of your own choice. 

However, if you would like to have an attorney, I wish you would let me 
know about it and we would be happy to make arrangements for further 
time when you could have one. 

Mr. Croy. I don't see what I would need an attorney for. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, I think in most cases it is not really necessary, except 
from the attorney's standpoint. 

Mr. Crot. He gets paid for doing nothing anyway. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, some of them do. 

Mr. Croy. This one does. 

Mr. Griffin. Are you an attorney? 

Mr. Croy. No. I have my own attorney. 

Mr. Griffin. I shouldn't have asked that question. All right, if it is agree- 
able with you, I will ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer 
the oath. 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the tri'th, so help you God? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Will you give us your full name? 

Mr. Croy. Kenneth Hudson Croy. 

Mr. Griffin. Where do you live? 

Mr. Croy. 1658 Glenfield. 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas? 

Mr. Croy. Dallas, Tex. 

Mr. Griffin. When were you born? 

Mr. Croy. February 21, 1937. 

Mr. Griffin. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Croy. I have several. 

Mr. Griffin. Let's have them in order. 

Mr. Croy. I am in the real estate business. I have a Mobil service station. 
I am in the steel erection business. And I am a professional cowboy, and 
that is about it that I can think of right now, 

Mr. Griffin. We Yankees up North don't know what professional cowboys are. 

Mr. Croy. Rodeo. You got rodeos up North. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes ; they come up once in a while and alternate with circuses. 
How long have you been doing that? 

Mr. Croy. Oh, about 12 years. 

Mr. Griffin. I would not like to waste all the court reporter's time talking 
about this, I don't think the Commission would probably be too interested. 

Are you also connected in some way with the Dallas Police Department? 

Mr. Ceoy. I am in the reserves. 

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been in the reserves. 

Mr. Croy. Since August of 1959. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you hold any rank in the reserves? 

Mr. Croy. I am a sergeant. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, I am going to take out a little time here and mark two 
documents. One of them is a report of an interview that you had on December 4, 
1963, with FBI Agents John E. Dallman and R. Neil Quigley. 

I have marked this particular document that I just referred to "Dallas, 
Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5051." 

I want to hand this to you, Mr. Croy, and ask you if you have had an oppor- 
tunity to read that over? 
Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this : Do you have any additions, deletions, or 
corrections that you feel should be made in that report? 
Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. If you are satisfied with the report, let me ask you then to 
sign it and date it. 
Mr. Croy. Where at? 

187 



Mr. Griffin. On the front page there some place near where we have marked 
it with an exhibit number, some conspicuous spot. 

Mr. Cboy. [Signs name.] 

Mr. Gbiffin. Now, I am marking what purports to be a copy of a letter 
dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief Curry and signed by you in the 
following manner : "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5052." 

Would you look at this, Mr. Croy, and would you tell me if you have had an 
opportunity to read that over? 

Mr. Croy. Yes; I have. 

Mr. Griffin. Are there any additions, deletions, or corrections that you 
would make with the respect to the accuracy of that letter ? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Okay, would you sign that and date it also in the same manner 
that you did the other one? 

Mr. Croy. [Signs and dates.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now, I have also marked for identification what purports to be 
a copy of an aflBdavit in fact, sworn to before A. L. Curtis, a notary public, 
by you on December 1, 1963, and I have marked that "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 
3-26-64, Exhibit 5053." 

I am going to hand you that, Mr. Croy, and ask you if you have had an oppor- 
tunity to look that over? 

Mr. Croy. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, is that a true and accurate copy of an affidavit which you 
prepared on that date? 

Mr. Croy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you then sign it and date it, please? 

Mr. Croy. [Signs and dates.] 

Mr. Griffin. Did you report to the jail or the police department on Sunday, 
November 24? 

Mr. Croy. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Griffin. About what time did you come in, do you recall? 

Mr. Croy. No; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, your letter of November 26 indicates you came in at 8:35? 

Mr. Croy. That is probable. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, sometime after you came in, you were assigned to guard 
a particular area of the basement ; is that correct? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you tell us what you were assigned to do? 

Mr. Croy. When I came into the city hall, I went to the assembly room, and 
that is where any initial assignments are made, in the assembly room, making 
up the muster and the roster of the reserve officers that arrived. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain there? 

Mr. Croy. Well, I was in and out of there, between there and the basement. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain on that duty? 

Mr. Croy. I never was relieved from that duty. I went in there, but I never 
was relieved from it. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, you have stated in your letter to Chief Curry of November 
26, 1963, in paragraph 3, "I was assigned to the basement and jail office entrance, 
and my assignment was that of a guard." 

Mr. Croy. Well, that was in the entire thing down there is what — everyone 
in the basement was considered a guard at the same time, if you are standing 
in front of the entrances, elevators, or in the back of the basement. 

Mr. Griffin. So you never had any particular station of duty there? 

Mr. Croy. No. I wasn't just assigned a spot and told to stay there. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did there come a time when you stationed yourself at the 
foot of the Main Street ramp in the basement? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. About when was that? For how long before Oswald came out, 
would you estimate? 

Mr. Croy. Well, I couldn't really estimate, because it has been almost 4 months 
ago and I don't really know how long it was. 

188 



Mr. Griffin. Well, when you took up your position at the base of the ramp, 
had the armored car arrived? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. The armored car was already there? lou weren't there at any 
time when the armored car was not there? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Can you give us any statement of how long you were 
there? Were yon there for 2 minutes prior to the time Oswald came down? 

Mr. Croy. I was longer than that. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you there 15 minutes? 

Mr. Croy. I couldn't say. I don't remember whether I was. 

Mr. Griffin. You think you were there as long as 5 minutes? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. How about as long as 10 minutes? 

Mr. Croy. I couldn't say that. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you remain in one general area when you stationed yourself 
at the bottom of the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. How did you come to be stationed at that position ? 

Mr. Croy. There was another officer, a regular officer, I believe, commented 
that they needed at least three more officers at that particular position. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who that regular officer was? 

Mr. Croy. No; I don't. I don't even know who he was. I just remember 
there was a regular officer, supervisory officer in uniform stated they needed at 
least three more. 

Mr. Griffin. Did he state this to you personally, or were you in a group at 
that time? 

Mr. Croy. I was just standing out there on this ramp leading into the base- 
ment where the two ramps lead down into the basement, and he stepped out 
there, and as well as I remember, just made a quick check and pointed out that 
he needed at least three men at that location. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, from the time that you finished doing your clerical work 
when you first came in, until you all were ultimately stationed at the base of 
the Main Street ramp, did you have any particular responsibilities? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. There were several reserve officers that were coming right 
directly into the basement, and the first reported to the assembly room to get 
their assignments or be told what to do. 

I would take these men and take them in there and get them mustered in on 
the roster so we would know they were there and have a record. 

I would either tell them where to report, or take them to a certain station 
and station them there. 

Mr. Griffin. All right, do you recall if you were in the basement when Captain 
Jones was there? 

Mr. Cboy. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if you were in the basement when a group of 
regular police officers, detectives and so forth came into the basement from 
the public elevators that go up into the police building, and walked through the 
swinging door and were given assignments by a regular officer of some sort? 
Were you there at that time? 

Mr. Croy. I don't guess I was ; I don't recall it at all. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, while you were stationed at the base of the 
Main Street ramp, do you recall if you saw any cars go in and out of the 
basement? 

Mr. Croy. There was one. 

Mr. Griffin. You saw one car? 

Mr. Cboy, Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, during the period that you were in the basement generally 
before you were stationed at the ramp, did you see any cars go in and out of the 
garage or basement area? 

Mr. Cboy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you describe how much traffic there was? 

189 



Mr. Croy. No. There wasn't any squads bringing prisoners in, that I recall. 
I don't recall any of that. 

I recall one car leaving, going up the south ramp, one car that I know of, be- 
cause I knew who was in that car. 

And other than that one and the one that went up the north ramp, I don't 
recall any other cars going out of the basement area. There could have been. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how much before you saw that one last car go up the 
Main Street ramp, how long would you say you had been in the basement? 
How long before that had you been at your station in the basement? 

Mr. Croy. What do you mean? 

Mr. Griffin. Let me start over again. How long had you been at this station 
which you had at the base of the Main Street ramp prior to the time that the 
last car went up the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Croy. How long had I been in the basement before then? 

Mr. Griffin. How long had you been in the general area at the base of the 
ramp ? Continuously ? 

Mr. Croy. I don't know, I guess a couple or 3 minutes, something like that. I 
remember that because he nearly ran over my toes. 

Mr. Griffin. While you were standing at the base of the ramp prior to the 
time that the car went up the ramp, do you remember whether any equipment 
of any sort was moved into the basement area? 

Mr. Croy. Equipment? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Croy. Just anything moved in there? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall any activities of newspaper people or of TV 
people? 

Mr. Croy. Oh, they were milling all over the place. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall any movement of equipment? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember a TV camera being rolled through the swing- 
ing double doors at the entrance, almost at the entrance to the Main Street ramp 
or the bottom ramp, and being wheeled in any direction? Being pushed, a TV 
camera ? 

Mr. Croy. I don't recall any bringing in there. They had them down there 
in the basement all morning, that I remember. I don't remember bringing in 
any more in there. 

Mr. Griffin. Where do you recall the three TV cameras being stationed 
there? At this point I would like to hand you my pen and ask you if you would 
mark on there? 

Mr. Croy. You want an "X"? 

Mr. Griffin. Make a rectangle and write TV inside of it. 

Mr. Croy. [Marks.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now, you have indicated on the map that there were two behind 
the railing, sort of directly opposite the hallway that leads out from the double 
doors? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. And that there was a third one over against the railing of the 
entrance to the garage closer to Commerce Street? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Are you sure that all of those were placed in that position that 
they were in, or do you think they could have been someplace else? 

Mr. Croy. They were placed there when I walked in the basement. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Would you tell us what happened at the time that this 
automobile went up the Main Street ramp? Which side of the automobile were 
you standing on? Were you standing between it and the railing, or were you 
standing between it and the wall? 

Mr. Croy. It and the wall on the left hand side of the car. 

Mr. Griffin. About how many people were in that area, would you say, in 
the general area across from the wall that you were near, and the railing across? 

Mr. Croy. Police oflBcers and press? 

190 



Mr. Griffin. How many would you say were there? 

Mr. Croy. I couldn't say. I don't know. There was several there. They 
were all standing out in here, and when the car came out, everybody had to 
get out of the way and let the car get through. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you make any effort to help push the people back? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. As cars went up the ramp and got ahead of you people, what did 
you do? 

Mr. Croy. I watched it go up the ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see it stop at the top of the ramp? 

Mr. Croy. No ; I just watched it going up the ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see the police officer there at the top of the ramp? 

Mr. Croy. Not at that time, I didn't. 

Mr. Grjffin. At what point did you lose sight? Where was the car when 
you lost sight of the car at the top of the ramp? 

Mr. Croy. When he got almost to the top of the ramp, I turned back around. 
I didn't watch it drive on out. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. As you looked around, did you see anything of sig- 
nificance? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Did there come a time when somebody gave you instructions to 
move the press back against the railing? 

Mr. Croy. Yes, sir ; there was. 

Mr. Griffin. When was that? 

Mr. Croy. Prior to them bringing Oswald down. 

Mr. Griffin. Was that before or after the car went up the ramp? 

Mr. Croy. It was after. 

Mr. Griffin. Was it any substantial length of time after? 

Mr. Croy. I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what makes you sure that it was after the ear went up the 
ramp? 

Mr. Croy. Because it was just prior to them bringing, just prior to them bring- 
ing him out. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, if you were told that, if you were to assume that that ear 
moved out of the ramp, approximately 1 minute before Oswald was shot, would 
you still feel that this order to move the people back from the railing was 
given after the car went up the ramp? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. In other words, you think it could have been as little as, no 
more than a minute after the car went up the ramp? 

Mr. Croy. I don't know how long it was. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you feel it was more than a minute after the car went up the 
ramp? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. You think this order was given more than a minute after the 
car went up the ramp? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Where was the officer standing who gave that order? 

Mr. Croy. Somewhere in this general area. He just stepped out of the little 
hallway leading to the jail office. I don't know who it was. He was a 
detective. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. 

Mr. Croy. In plain clothes. 

Mr. Griffin. You saw him emerge from the jail office? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. He said move everybody back? 

Mr. Oroy. Well, he didn't say move everybody back. He said move back 
against the railing. At that particular time they were all crowded out in here 
and all the way around. 

Mr. Griffin. You are indicating the area right in front of the TV cameras? 

Mr. Croy. And he said, move the press back against the railing, this group 
right here. They didn't move them back because they wasn't actually — what 

191 



they were trying to do was clear a hall because they were crowded right up 
to the entrance right here. 

Mr. Griffin. You say there was a group that was standing across the Main 
Street ramp that wasn't pushed back? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Where were you standing? Would you mark on the diagram 
where you were standing when the order was given to push the people back? 

Mr. Croy. Do you want me to put an "X"? 

Mr. Griffin. Put a "C" in there and put a circle around it. 

Mr. Croy. [Complies.] 

Mr. Griffin. Did you turn around and move the crowd back? 

Mr. Croy. There was a man with a camera, movie camera, sitting on his 
shoulder, standing next to me. 

Mr. Griffin. Which direction were you facing? 

Mr. CliOY. I was facing to the south. 

Mr. Griffin. Toward Commerce Street? 

Mr. Croy. Yes ; he would have been to my left. And there was also another 
fellow standing just slightly in back of him. 

And when he gave this order to move the people back, I thought he referred 
to everyone moving against the rail, because I was in back of this other group 
of the press. I didn't bother with them. I let the ones in front of them take 
care of them, and I turned to the man with the camera and this other fellow 
and told them to move back against the rail. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you recognize this other fellow ? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, then, what did you do? 

Mr. Croy. I turned back around and watched the reporters in front of me. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see someone there that you recognized? 

Mr. Croy. Where? 

Mr. Griffin. Where the reporters were in front of you? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, maybe I don't understand your aflBdavit here. You 
stated in here, "someone in authority gave instructions to move the press back 
against the rail. At that time I turned and told two men standing to my left 
to move back against the rail. One of these men had a motion picture camera. 
The other one was in a dark maroon coat with black thread woven into it. 
He was wearing a black hat. My father has a coat something similar to the man 
I spoke to. 

"I then turned my attention back to the reporters which were standing in 
front of me. I believe this man to have been Jack Ruby." 

The "to" is underlined. Which man are you referring to? 

Mr. Croy. The man with the maroon coat that was standing to my left. 
The other man I told to move back against the rail. 

Mr. Griffin. Miss Reporter, would you please turn back in your notes and 
read where he referred to the position of the reporters ? 

(The following questions and answers were read : 

"Mr. Griffin. Did you see someone there that you recognized? 

"Mr. Croy. Where? 

"Mr. Griffin. Where the reporters were in front of you? 

"Mr. Croy. No.") 

Mr. Griffin. Will the reporter please indicate in the record what portion 
was read back to the witness? 

Now, you heard the reporter read back that testimony. 

Mr. Ceoy. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Griffin. I don't understand. You have said here, if I understand it in 
your affidavit, that you saw a man whom you believed to be Jack Ruby. 

Mr. Croy. I believe when I wrote that up it was him. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Now, have you since come to believe that that man 
wasn't Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. You still believe that man was Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Croy. To myself, I still believe it was Jack Ruby. 

192 



Mr. Gbiffin. Okay. 

Mr. Crot. I don't know whether it was or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Tell us how you came to believe that man was Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Croy. Well, as I was standing there and this blur came from my left, 
someone running, and he rin by me at a pretty good clip, he was gaining 
momentum and he ran by me. I got a glimpse of his coat and the coat matched 
the one that I had told this fellow to move back. At least it seemed to me 
it did. 

Mr. Griffin. Was that man over against the railing? 

Mr. Crot. No; after I turned ray attention back to the reporters, I glanced 
back over my shoulder to see if they had done what I told them to, and the 
man with the camera had gotten on the railing where could get a good shot. The 
other fellow, I didn't see him. 

I didn't turn completely all the way around to see if he was in back of me. 
I just glanced over my shoulder, so I presume he had gotten against the rail- 
ing or had moved around with the other reporters. 

Mr. Griffin. About how far were you from the railing after you pushed the 
reporters back over in that direction? 

Mr. Croy. I didn't push them. I asked them to step back over there. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Croy. I was standing about midways to the ramp. Do you know how 
wide that ramp is? 

Mr. Griffin. Was there a line, a group of people in front of you ? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Was this group, was it sort of in a line that stretched across 
from the wall to the railing across the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. How many people would you say were stretched across there? 

Mr. Croy. I don't know. There was quite a few there, but I have no idea 
how many were there. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were there any people — as you turned back, were you also 
part of a line, a second line? Were you part of a second line? 

Mr. Oroy. Not that I know. I was just standing there. There were other 
officers to my right. 

Mr. Griffin. In other words, one straggled line, this first line in front of 
you? 

Mr. Croy. What do you mean? 

Mr. Griffin. Are you stating there was a fairly solid front line of people? 

Mr. Croy. About two deep. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you behind that group of people? 

Mr. Croy. I was behind them. 

Mr. Griffin. How far behind them were you? 

Mr. Croy. Oh, a couple of feet or 3 feet. 

Mr. Griffin. Back where you were standing, were people as closely bunched 
up as other people were? 

Mr. Croy. There wasn't anyone to my left other than the two people I told 
to move back. To my right there were several other officers standing there 
with me. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Captain Amett one of the officers? 

Mr, Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you show us where Captain Amett was? 

Mr. Croy. [Marks.] 

Mr. Griffin. How many people were to Captain Arnett's right? 

Mr. Croy. I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. You say there was nobody to your left except a man with 
a movie camera? 

Mr. Croy. He got back upon the railing. 

Mr. Griffin. At the time this man got up on the railing, there was nobody 
that you can recall to your left? 

Mr. Oroy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, will you place on the map, on that chart, where you 

193 



think Ruby, where you saw this man that you believe to be Ruby, moved from I 
and to? Could you show us where? 

Mr. C5BOY. Do you mean after I told him to move? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Croy. I don't know where he moved to. 

Mr. Griffin. Where was he when you first saw him moving? Did you see 
him moving? 

Mr. Croy. Maybe I don't understand you. As he ran into the crowd ? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Croy. After Oswald? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Croy. Where did I see him again? About right there [pointing]. 

Mr. Griffin. Up in front of you? 

Mr. Croy. Yes; well, to my side. 

Mr. Griffin. To your left? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Would you put a "R" there where you saw him? 

Mr. Croy. [Makes mark.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now, was there anybody in front of him at that point? 

Mr. Croy. Yes ; there was reporters. 

Mr. Griffin. There were reporters. Now, what did he do as he got to these 
reporters? 

Mr. Croy. He ran through them. 

Mr. Griffin. Did he push them aside, or what? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see him push them? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see a man shoved? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Which man got shoved? 

Mr. Croy. These reporters. He just lowered his head and ran through them 
like a fullback went through a line. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you feel this man move by you, or did you first see his 
motion when he was in front of you? 

Mr. Croy. Caught a glimpse of his motion. I have a wide range. I could 
see over here. I saw a blur coming in, and, of course, by the time I turned, 
he was in position. He was already in front of me. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, you can't tell from how far he had been running, can 
you? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you able to tell if he had taken more than one step be- 
fore you had seen him? 

Mr. Croy. He had a good head of steam up, I will put it that way. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know Captain King? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know Detective Blackie Harrison? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you describe the people that you saw Ruby push through? 

Mr. Croy. Well, it was just a group of reporters there trying to get closer 
to Ruby. I mean to Oswald. 

Mr. Grifbt:n. Were there any police officers near Ruby at the time that he 
moved through that line? 

Mr. Croy. There were no uniform police oflScers. If there were some detec- 
tives there, I don't know, because I didn't know any of them. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, during this period that you were down in the basement, 
the 5-minute period that you were in the basement, were you able to distinguish 
the plainclothes detectives from the newspaper people? 

Mr. Croy. No ; I was in the basement longer than 5 minutes. 

Mr. Griffin. The period that you were stationed at the base of the ramp, the 
15 minutes or more, were you able to distinguish the uniformed officers from 
the newspaper people? 

Mr. Croy. Uniformed officers ; yes. The detectives ; no. 

194 



Mr. Griffin. You couldn't distinguish them? All right. Are you able to de- 
scribe the relative size of the newspaper reporters that Ruby moved there, in 
comparison to him ? 

Mr. Crot. No ; because this man had run through, Ruby, if it was Ruby, was in 
a crouch. He was running low. The newspapermen were of average height and 
average build. 

Mr. GbiffIn. How could you tell that the two men he pushed were newspaper 
reporters? 

Mr. Cboy. I don't know. They might have been police oflScers. 

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody that he pushed by have a camera in his hand or 
microphone or a pad of paper or anything? 

Mr. Cboy. I don't recall whether they did or not. They were actually stand- 
ing in front of me and I was looking at their backs. 

Mr. Griffin. Have you seen yourself in any photographs that have been 
taken of the basement area ? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Do you remember where you saw that photograph? Was it a 
photograph in a magazine or newspaper or something? 

Mr. Croy. Television. 

Mr. Griffin. A TV film? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what station you saw that on? 

Mr. Cboy. All of them. No; I don't. They just ran it and ran it and reran 
it, and every time I was in the room, someone said, "There you are," and I looked 
again. 

Mr. Griffin. Was this a showing that the police department made to you, or 
were you shown any films by the police department? 

Mr. Cboy. No. 

Mr. Gbiffin. You saw this film on the regular, your home TV set, something 
like that? 

Mr. Cboy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall in any of these films a shot of Ruby standing 
behind a very large man, standing right up at the back of a very large man, a 
very tall man, a man perhaps a head taller than he? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. If you were shown these particular movie films, TV films that 
you saw, could you pick yourself out for us? 

Mr. Cboy. Well, the ones that I saw were the ones that I was trying to get 
the gun from Ruby, and the ones that they had taken after it was all over, and 
I was standing in the entrance to the jail oflBce. Those are the only ones I 
have seen. 

Mr. Griffin. You didn't see a picture of yourself at the time Ruby started 
to move out toward Oswald ? 

Mr. Cboy. No ; I saw the reruns of it when he ran in there and shot him, 
but I wasn't visible in that. 

Mr. Griffin. Did any one of these films that you watched show you reaching 
out and touching the coat of Ruby? 

Mr. Croy. No; none that I saw. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, you met Jack Ruby before, haven't you? 

Mr. Cboy. Yes. 

Mr. Gbiffin. About how many occasions had you seen Jack Ruby before he 
came into the basement? 

Mr. Ceoy. Once, that I can recall. I may have seen him many times before 
that, I don't know. 

Mr. Gbiffin. As a reserve oflScer, do you have occasion to ride duty in the 
downtown area? 

Mr. Cboy. Sometimes. 

Mr. Gbiffin. About how often would you say you did duty in the downtown 
area? 

Mr. Cboy. Requires once a month. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Is there any particular man that you always did duty with? 

Mr. Croy. Yes ; there was one that I did ride quite a bit with. 

195 



Mr. Griffin. Who was that? 
Mr. Croy. J. W. Dyson. 

Mr. Grifp'in. I mean in the downtown area, was there one that you rode with? 
Mr. Croy. I didn't ride in any particular downtown area over twice since 
I have been in the reserves, I don't guess. As a district in the downtown area. 
Mr. Griffin. Now, did you have occasion to ride out in the area of the Vegas 
Club? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. How often would you ride in that area ? 

Mr. Croy. I have ridden out there a couple or three times. 

Mr. Griffin. Who did you ride that area with? 

Mr. Croy. I don't Isnow. I just went to the substation and checked out with 
the squad, 

Mr. Griffin. Was Officer Dyson assigned to that area? 

Mr. Croy. No ; he is an APB. 

Mr. Griffin. Is West Illinois Avenue anywhere near the Vegas Club? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. How about around 1720 South Lamar, is that anywhere near? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Have you ever testified in any court case before? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did there come a time when you 
ran up the Main Street ramp and stopped reporters leaving? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. How long was that after this scuffle on the floor? 

Mr. Croy. That is hard to say, because it was right there, you might say, 
right with the scuffle on the floor that they said "seal the basement." 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you stand up there at the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Croy. Oh, just a few minutes. Then I moved to the entrance into the 
jail office. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain there? 

Mr. Croy. A good while. 

Mr. Griffin. Then what time did you go off duty? 

Mr. Croy. It was about 8 o'clock that night. 

Mr. Griffin. During that period, did you tell anybody that you had seen a 
man brush by you who you thought was Ruby? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Who did you tell at that time? 

Mr. Croy. Lieutenant McCoy. 

Mr. Griffin. Reserve Lieutenant McCoy? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Anybody else? 

Mr. Croy. I don't recall if I mentioned it or not to Reserve Lieutenant Nichol- 
son, I may have. 

Mr. Griffin. Nicholson? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. What did Lieuteuant McCoy say when you told him that? 

Mr. Croy. I don't recall what he said. 

Mr. Griffin. Why did you tell him about it? 

Mr. Croy. We were just talking about it later on that afternoon. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, what were you saying? 

Mr. Croy. We were just talking about what happened in the basement, where 
he was at and where I was at. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you speculating about where he came from or how he got 
in or anything like that? 

Mr. Croy. A little bit, I am trying to figure out what the heck happened, really. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there other officers in the basement doing that also? 

Mr. Croy. They were doing it just between theirselves. There wasn't any 
group talking about it, I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. What time was it that you talked, approximately, to Lieutenant 
McCoy? 

Mr. Cboy. Oh, I don't know. 

196 



Mr. Griffin. Well, was this, you say, a short time after you left your position 
up on the Main Street ramp, or was it a long time after? 
Mr. Cboy. It was a pretty good while, after. An hour. 
Mr. Griffin. An hour or so? 
Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, between the time that you told this Lieutenant McCoy 
and you went off duty, what did you do? 

Mr. Croy. I sat up in the city planning room. 

Mr. Griffin. Who was up there in the city planning room? 

Mr. Croy. Lieutenant McCoy and Reserve Lieutenant Barney Merrell. 

Mr. Griffin. Anybody else you can recall? 

Mr. Croy. Reserve Lieutenant Nicholson. And there was Captain Solomon 
up there, and Captain Amett, and several other reserve oflScers, that we kind of 
set up a command post, is actually what it was. 

Mr. Griffin. What were you doing up there? 

Mr. Croy. Making assignments. 

Mr. Griffin. Who was giving you directions? 

Mr. Croy. Lieutenant McCoy. 

Mr. Griffin. What sort of assignments were you making? 

Mr. Croy. Placing the men in different spots throughout the city hall and 
seeing that they were relieved, and calling on the telephone to get some more 
help. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have some time to sit around and talk? 

Mr, Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you talk about what you had seen down in the base- 
ment? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you tell these men out there about Ruby brushing past you? 

Mr. Croy. I talked to Lieutenant McCoy about it. I don't know whether 
Mike Nicholson and Merrell were there at that particular time or not. I don't 
know whether they overheard what we were talking about or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did Captain Solomon at that time make any request that 
people write reports about what they had seen? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you aware that the regular oflScers, these other people who 
had been down in the basement, were being asked to make reports? 

Mr. Croy. No : I didn't know they were. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you expect that you would be asked to make a report of 
what happened in the basement? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. You expected that while you were sitting up there in the oflBce? 

Mr. Croy. I had a pretty good hunch they would. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, this statement which we have marked, a letter which we 
have marked Exhibit 5052, which is a copy of a letter that you prepared for 
Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, was that prepared down in the police 
department, or was that prepared at one of your business oflBces? 

Mr. Croy. That was prepared at the Dallas Police Academy. 

Mr. Griffin. Where is that located? 

Mr. Croy. On Shorecrest back of the northwest substation. 

Mr. Griffin. Was that prepared by hand? 

Mr. Croy. Yes, it was. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you responsible for getting the typing done? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Who did you turn that report over to? 

Mr. Croy. Captain Solomon. 

Mr. Griffin. Then was it his responsibility to get the typing done? 

Mr. Croy. I don't know. I just turned it in. What he did with it, I don't 
know. 

Mr. Griffin. Did it eventually come back to you? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. The typed copy never came back to you? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

197 



Mr. Griffin. Have you seen a copy of that statement since you signed it? 

Mr. Croy. Just a while ago. 

Mr. Griffin. Is there any question in your mind but that the statement that 
you signed is a complete and accurate copy of the statement that you prepared 
in your own hand iu the police department? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what day it was, the day you prei>ared that state- 
ment? 

Mr. Croy. The following Tuesday night. I don't know what date it was. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, Mr. Croy, why didn't you mention in this report, dated 
November 26, your seeing this man you believe to be Ruby? 

Mr. Croy. Why didn't I mention that in there? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Oeoy. Because at that time Captain Solomon told me that there would 
be another report made and I would have to go downtown to the city hall before 
a stenographer, and he told me just to leave that out for the time being, and put 
this in this other affidavit that you have, that this right here was just basically 
to find out where we were in the city hall. 

Mr. Griffin. Then when you prepared this other statement on December 1, 
who called you and how did you come to go before Notary Public A. L. Curtis? 

Mr. Croy. He is a lieutenant. After I signed it, I took it there to be notarized 
by him. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, then, how did you happen to — was this done in the police 
department? 

Mr. Croy. Yes, it was. 

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to go to the police department that day? 

Mr. Croy. They called me. 

Mr. Griffin. Who called you? 

Mr. Croy. Captain Amett. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you meet Captain Arnett down at the police department? 

Mr. Croy. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with him before this statement was drawn up? 

Mr. Croy. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Who did you talk to before the statement was drawn up? 

Mr. Croy. Lieutenant Revill. 

Mr. Griffin. Did Lieutenant Revill have any information before him about 
this, about your having seen Ruby? Did Lieutenant Revill have any information 
before him about your having seen Ruby go into the, brush by you? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. He didn't have any information to that effect? 

Mr, Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to be called down there? 

Mr. Croy. Because of my position in the basement where I was standing 
when he shot Oswald. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, what did Captain Solomon say to you when 
you told what you had seen to Revill? Did Revill indicate that he had heard 
about this before, about your having been a witness to this? 

Mr. Croy. Not that I recall. 

Mr. Griffin. Was anybody else there? 

Mr. Croy. Yes ; Lieutenant, I think his name is Cornwall, he was present. 

Mr. Griffin. Did either of them indicate surprise by having seen this? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. You got the impression from the way they spoke, or any im- 
pression from the way they spoke, that they had heard this information before? 

Mr. Croy. Well, they didn't act surprised. They didn't act like they didn't 
know about it. It kind of tied in with the other reports that they had gotten, 
I pre^me, from the way they acted. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what was the general attitude on their part in the tak- 
ing of these statements. Did you feel that there was some, Cornwall and 
Revill were concerned about this situation? 

Mr. Croy. Yes ; they were. 

Mr. Griffin. How would you describe their general attitude in this interview? 

198 



Mr. Croy. They were very interested. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, can you tell me more about that? 

Mr. Croy. No ; well, I will put it this way, that it took us 8 hours to get that 
up. That is how interested they were. 

Mr. Griffin. You talked with them for 8 hours? 

Mr. Croy. On 2 different occasions. That day and the next day, for 4 
hours each day. That is pretty interesting. 

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Croy, I take it that you actually talked to them on November, 
the last day of November was the first time you talked to them, and then you 
signed this on the first day of December? 

Mr. Croy. What it was, the stenographer took it, and then she typed it tip. 
Then the next day I went back down there and they re-read it to me and went 
over and over and over and over the same thing over and over again. And 
then I took it into Lieutenant Curtis and signed it and had it notarized. 

Mr. Griffin. Was that examination the way you and I have been going back 
and forth here? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there a number of drafts to this statement? You say 
it took you 2 days to draw this up. Had you written a number? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you write something first? 

Mr. Croy, No. 

Mr. Griffin. Did they take notes as you talked with them? 

Mr. Croy. No ; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked every- 
thing over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back over it 
again, then I left and she typed it up, and I came in the next day and we went 
back over it again and back over it and so on. 

Mr. Griffin. Were they critical of you in any way for not having ejected 
Ruby the first time that you saw him iu the basement? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you indicate to them at that time that you didn't know 
who he was when you first saw him? 

Mr. Croy. Yes ; I didn't know who he was. 

Mr. Griffin. When you first saw this man, did yoli believe that he was a 
newspaper reporter? 

Mr. Croy. I did. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you tell that to Lieutenant Revill and Captain Cornwall? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to mark this "Ruby location at the time Croy saw 
him moving toward Oswald." Is that a fair description of what the hiero- 
glyphics on here mean? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, 
Exhibit 5054," and what I have marked on is the chart upon which you made 
a certain mark while you described to me what happened when you saw a 
man you believed to be Ruby run toward Oswald. 

Now, let me ask you to sign that, if you believe that is an accurate copy 
of the real McCoy. Would you date it also? 

Mr. Croy. [Signs and dates.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you have any other information that you could provide 
the Commission of any significance? 

Mr. Croy. None other than what we have talked about right here. 

( Statement to witness by court reporter. ) 

Mr. Griffin. Well, now, tell me about your conversation that you had with 
our court stenographer here prior to coming in here, about Tippit? 

Mr. Croy. Oh, it was at the scene over where OflBcer Tippit was killed, at 
the scene. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you at the scene when Tippit was there? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Unassigned? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. I take it you are nodding your head? 

199 

731-228 O— 64 — vol. XII -14 



Mr, Cboy. Yes. 

Mr. Gbiffin. What time were you at the scene where Tippit was killed? 

Mr. Cboy. I watched them load him in the ambulance. 

Mr. Gbiffin. I see. Were you on reserve duty that day ? 

Mr. Cboy. Yes. I was stationed downtown in the, I believe it was the 
1800 or 1900 block of Main Street. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Were you in a patrol car? 

Mr. Cboy. No ; I was on foot. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Were you in uniform ? 

Mr. Cbot. In uniform. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Where were you at the time President Kennedy was shot? 

Mr. Cboy. Sitting in my car at the city hall. I would guess, I don't know, 
because I didn't know he was shot until, I guess, several minutes after it was. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Is that where you were located when you heard he was shot? 

Mr. Cboy. No. I was on Main Street trying to go home. 

Mr. Gbiffin. You were driving your car down Main Street? 

Mr. Cboy. Yes. 

Mr. Gbiffin. About where were you on Main Street? 

Mr. Cboy. Griffin. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Griffin Street? 

Mr. Cboy. Yes. 

Mr. Gbiffin. What did you do when you heard that President Kennedy had 
been shot? 

Mr. Cboy. I didn't do anything. I was right in the middle of the street 
with my car hemmed in from both sides. I couldn't go anywhere. 

Mr. Gbiffin. As soon as you got unhemmed, what did you do? 

Mr. Cboy. I went by the courthouse there and there were several officers 
standing there, and I asked if they needed any help. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Did you drive your car to the courthouse? 

Mr. Cboy. Yes. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Which courthouse? 

Mr. Cboy. There was only one courthouse. 

Mr. Gbiffin. There is a county courthouse? 

Mr. Cboy. There is. 

Mr. Gbiffin. There is a Federal courthouse, also, but this is the one right 
there by the plaza and near the Texas School Book Depository? 

Mr. Cboy. The old red courthouse. 

Mr. Gbiffin. On Houston Street? 

Mr. Cboy. Yes. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Was that the corner of Houston and Main? 

Mr. Cboy. Houston and Main and Elm. 

Mr. Gbiffin. How long after you heard that President Kennedy was shot 
did you arrive there ? 

Mr. Cboy. Oh, I guess it took me at least 20 minutes to drive those few blocks. 

Mr. Gbiffin. What time would you say it was when you arrived at the 
courthouse ? 

Mr. Cboy. I don't know. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Who did you see when you arrived there? 

Mr. Cboy. Oh, there was some officers standing on the corner, I don't know. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Did you inquire of somebody there if you could be of assistance? 

Mr. Cboy. Yes. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Whom did you inquire of? 

Mr. Cboy. I don't know. They were just standing on the corner, and I asked 
if I could be of any assistance. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Then, what did you do? 

Mr. Cboy. I proceeded on home. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Which way did you drive home? 

Mr. Cboy. Out Thornton to Colorado, and Colorado to — I can't think of the 
street. It was Marsalis. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Was that 

Mr. Cboy. Or Zangs. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Thornton to Zangs? 

200 



Mr. Cboy. Thornton to Colorado to Zangs. 

Mr. Griffin. Then out Zangs and in a westerly direction? 

Mr. Croy. No. That is when I heard the call on Tippit. 

Mr. Griffin. You were at the corner of Zangs and Colorado? 

Mr. Croy. When the call came out on Tippit. 

Mr. Griffin. Then what did you do? 

Mr. Croy. I proceeded to the location where Tippit was shot. 

Mr. Griffin. Where was that? 

Mr. Croy. I think it was in the 400 block of East 10th, I believe it was. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what street intersection that was? 

Mr. Croy. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you describe that area out there? 

Mr. Croy. Just residential. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, was there 

Mr. Croy. Where Tippit was killed, you mean? 

Mr. Griffin. This area that you went to where Tippit was? 

Mr. Croy. Well, the street where he was killed was a residential area. The 
street immediately south of that, Jefferson, is business. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Now, I am just referring to the street you found him on. 
When you got there, was Tippit's car there? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Tippit there? 

Mr. Croy. They were loading him in the ambulance. 

Mr. Griffin. Were other officers on the scene? 

Mr. Croy. None that I saw. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when you got there? 

Mr. Croy. Got me a witness. 

Mr. Griffin. Who did you get ahold of? 

Mr. Croy. It was a woman standing across the street from me. I don't recall 
her name. She gave me her name at that time. 

Mr. Griffin. What did she tell you? 

Mr. Croy. She told me that she saw Tippit get out of the car, and I don't 
recall, I think she said he stepped back a couple of foot and shot him and then 
ran. She was pretty hysterical at that particular time. 

Mr. Griffin. Did she tell you where she first saw Oswald? 

Mr. Croy. I don't recall whether she did or not. There was, as I recall, 
there was 2 people who saw it. No ; 3. A man in a, taxicab driver. However, 
she was the main eyewitness, as far as I could make out. She saw the actual 
shooting. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you talk with her? 

Mr. Croy. Oh, a good 5 or 10 minutes. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other officers there with you when you were 
talking with her? 

Mr. Croy. Yes ; and no. I talked to her, and then they talked to her, and then 
I talked to her, and just after I located a witness, the squad did get there. 

Mr. Griffin. This conversation all took place near the scene of the Tippit 
killing? 

Mr. Croy. Leaning up against his car. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, as you and the other officers talked with her, did she tell 
you where she was that she first saw Oswald? 

Mr. Croy. I don't recall whether she did or not. She was pretty hysterical 
and not much that she said made too much sense. 

Mr. Griffin. What was she saying? 

Mr. Croy. She talked very incoherent at that particular time. 

Mr. Griffin. What information were you able to get out of her at that time? 

Mr. Croy. The only information I could get out of her was the description 
of what Oswald had on, and him shooting him. 

Mr. Griffin. What did she tell you at that time that he had on? 

Mr. Croy. I don't recall what he had on. 

Mr. Griffin. What did she tell you? 

Mr. Croy. I don't recall what it was. She just gave a description there. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you file any report of your activities this day? 

201 



Mr. Crot. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Do yon remember the names of the other oflScers who were there 
with you when you were interviewing this woman? 

Mr. Croy. No ; I know them on sight. They all work in Oak Cliff and I don't 
know the names. I just know when I see them driving down the street. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with the taxi driver? 

Mr. Croy. Yes ; I did. I talked to the taxi driver. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you talk with him on the scene of the crime? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember what his name was? 

Mr. Croy. No ; I didn't get his name. There was a private detective agency. 
There was a report that a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun and had left, 
presumably. They don't know whether he was the one that had shot Tippit, or 
whether the man, I think it was he, brought someone out there, something. 
Anyway, he saw it and he picked up Tippit's gun and attempted to give chase or 
something like that. 

Mr. Griffin. There was a detective who was an eyewitness? 

Mr. Croy. No ; he brought the taxi driver back to the scene. 

Mr. Griffin. But the taxicab driver was an eyewitness? 

Mr. Croy. As far as I know. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to the taxicab driver? 

Mr. Croy. No ; I took Tippit's gun and several other oflScers came up, and I 
turned him over to them and they questioned him. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, who was the third eyewitness that you say you talked 
with there? 

Mr. Croy. I believe it was a man that was standing there in the yard. He 
said he saw Oswald just walk up the street. 

Mr. Griffin. What direction did he say? 

Mr. Croy. He didn't say. 

Mr. Griffin. But he saw Oswald walking some blocks to where he got to before 
he got to Tippit's car? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. What did he tell you that he saw Oswald do walking up the 
street ? 

Mr. Croy. He just said he saw him walking up the street, and this other lady 
said that, I believe it was, that Tippit had stopped him and called him over to 
the car, and he came around to the driver's side, because Tippit was by himself. 

Mr. Griffin. Oswald came around? 

Mr. Croy. To the driver's side of the car. 

Mr. Griffin. This is the lady that said that? 

Mr. Croy. The lady said that, and she said, I think she said, he stuck his head 
in the car and they talked, and he stepped back a couple or 3 feet, and Tippit 
opened the door to get out, and when he got out, Oswald pulled the pistol out and 
shot him. 

Mr. Griffin. This is a lady? The man or the lady that said this? 

Mr. Croy. The lady. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what did the man who was walking, who saw Oswald 
svalking up the street, tell you? 

Mr. Croy. He just said he saw him walking up the street just prior to the 
shooting. 

Mr. Griffin. Did he say he saw him arrive at the car? 

Mr. Croy. No ; I turned him over to some other officers and they talked to him. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you able to determine from them what direction he saw 
Oswald walking? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall this man's name? 

Mr. Croy. No ; I found the witness and took him to the other oflScers. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, after the Tippit — how long did you remain at the scene of 
the Tippit killing? 

Mr. Croy. Oh, I would say a good 30 minutes. Thirty or forty minutes, some- 
thing like that. 

Mr. Griffin. Then where did you go? 

202 



Mr. Croy. Home. I went to eat. 

Mr. Griffin. I take it, at some restaurant or something? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you remain home the re.st of the day? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you come to the police department on the 

Mr. Croy. Next day. 

Mr. Griffin. Next day? 

Mr. Croy. I believe it was the next day. No; that was the 22d. Saturday, 
I didn't go to the police department that day. 

Mr. Griffin. While you were at the scene of the Tippit killing, did you inquire 
there as to whether or not you could be of any assistance? 

Mr. Croy. Well, when I left, I asked them if they thought they needed me 
any longer, and they said, "No," so I left. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, have you been interviewed by an FBI agent or any agent 
of the Federal Government with respect to what you have just told us here? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Dallas Police 
Department with respect to what you have told us here? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Did any of the — how many police officers came out to the scene 
of the Tippit killing while you were there? 

Mr. Croy. I don't know. There was a slew of them. That would be hard 
to say. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there any officers there that you knew? 

Mr. Croy. There were several officers there that I knew. I don't know their 
names. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there any officers there that you knew? 

Mr. Croy. I am sure there is. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you know them? 

Mr. Croy. The same way I know them, just by sight. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, do you have anything else of value that you know you could 
contribute to the Commission? 

Mr. Croy. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know the name of the woman you talked to across the 
street ? 

Mr. Croy. I don't recall. I think she lived across the street. She was stand- 
ing out in front watering her yard or doing .something in her yard. 

Mr. Griffin. But you have the impression that she lived across the street, in 
a house across the street? 

Mr. Croy. I believe she did. I am not sure either, or it was in the neigh- 
borhood and she was there in the yard. She was across the street when it 
happened. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, you stated that she was watering her yard? 

Mr. Croy. Or something. She was standing in the yard doing something. 

Mr. Griffin. But the first thing you indicated was. she had been watering her 
yard? Apparently that was something that stuck with you from, of course, 
talking with her? 

Mr. Croy. I don't remember what she said she was doing. She was doing 
something in the yard, and I presume that is where she lived was across the 
street. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you have occasion to go to the theatre where Oswald 
was apprehended? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Or go near there? 

Mr. CliOY. I went by it, yes ; within a block of it on the way home. 

Mr. Griffin. Had Oswald been apprehended by the time you got ti.ere? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. How do you know that? 

Mr. Croy. They were on their way up there. There had been a report that 
he had gone into the Texas Theatre. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you listening to your police radio? 

203 



Mr. Ckoy. Xo. I was standing at the scene, and there had been several 
reports. One. that he, of course, they said that the killer did go into a church, 
which was in sight of where they were at. Ami another re^wrt. that he had 
gone into the library over on JetTersou. And they had all. most of the officers 
except maybe one or two had left the scene where Tippit was killed and gone 
to the sjwt. 

And as I got ready to leave, there was another report that he ran into the 
Texas Theatre, a man fitting Oswald's description had ran into the Texas 
Theatre. 

Mr. Griffin. That was about the time you got into the automobileV 

Mr. Croy. Just as I was fixing to leave. 

Mr. Griffix. Did you have your police radio on in your car? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. So you drove over there by the — near the theatre? 

Mr. Croy. Well, I drove on up 10th Street. I believe it was 10th Street. On 
up to Zangs, and when I got to Zangs. took a left, and at the end of Zangs. at 
the corner of Zangs and .leflferson. it is just a block away. I could see them 
rushing out to the front and the back. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do as you saw them rushing out? 

Mr. Croy. They had more help thau they needed, so I went on. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you continue to listen to your police radio? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear anything more over the radio about what happened? 

Mr. Ckoy". No. I only had channel 1 on my radio. 

Mr. Griffin. How far a drive is it from the Texas Theatre to where you live? 

Mr. Croy. About 3 miles. 

Mr. Griffin. How long does it take to drive that distance? 

Mr. Croy. About 10 minutes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you actually see these men rushing into the Texas Theatre 
from your automobile? 

Mr. Croy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. How did : ou know they were going into the, men were rushing 
into the theatre just as you went by? 

Mr. Croy'. There were three cars in the back and about three in the front, 
and there wasn't nobody in them. 

Mr. Griffin. You drove right by the front of the theatre? 

Mr. Croy. I drove withiu a block, but it is a big. wide street there, and ther'e 
is an alley and nothing on the other side of the street, parking lots. 

Mr. Griffin. How many cars could you see there? 

Mr. Croy. I would say there were two or three in the back and two or three 
in the front, plus another on the way. 

Mr. Griffin. Well. now. the street that you took, did that go by the front or 
the back of the theatre? 

Mr. Croy. It didn't go by either one of them. 

Mr. Griffin. Which street was that? 

Mr. Croy. Zangs. 

Mr. Griffin. How many blocks is it from the theatre? 

Mr. Croy. One. 

Mr. Griffin. What street is the theatre ou? 

Mr. Croy. Jefferson. 

Mr. Griffin. What street does it back on to? 

Mr. Croy. It backs into an alley. 

Mr. Griffin. Into the alley? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. How many feet would you say that Jefferson or the Texas 
Theatre is from Zangs? 

Mr. Croy. I don't know. I would say not a very long block. 

Mr. Griffin. Now. when you were driving up Zangs, I take it you were driving 
away from town? 

Mr. Croy. South. 

Mr. Griffin. South on Zangs at Jefferson? 

Mr. Cboy. Yes. 

201 



Mr. Griffin. Did you continue south? 

Mr. Croy. I continued south. 

Mr. Griffin. How did you proceed to your home from there? 

Mr. Croy. Well, I didn't go home. I went to eat. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did you go to eat? 

Mr. Croy. Austin Barbecue. 

Mr. Griffin. Where is that located? 

Mr. Croy. On the corner of Hampton and Illinois. 

Mr. Griffin. How did you got to Hampton and Illinois? 

Mr. Croy. From Zangs to Illinois. 

Mr. Griffin. Then what direction? 

Mr. Croy. West. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that left or right? 

Mr. Croy. It is a right. 

Mr. Griffin. Then how far up Illinois to Hampton? 

Mr. Croy. Oh, I would say a long ways. It is a good stretch. Zangs Place 
is about the 300 or 400 block and Illinois intersects at about the 2100 or 2200 
block. 

Mr. Griffin. How far driving was it from the Texas Theatre to this place that 
you had dinner or lunch? 

Mr. Croy. Well, it is about three-quarters of a mile from my house, so it is 3 
miles from there, so about 2V^ miles. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, from the diner what route did yon drive to your house? 

Mr. Croy. Straight up Illinois, w-est on Illinois. 

Mr. Griffin. Is your house on Illinois? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know what time you arrived at the diner? 

Mr. Croy. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see anybody there that you knew? 

Mr. Croy. My wife. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have an appointment to meet your wife there? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. What time was your appointment? 

Mr. Croy. Well, I saw her downtown and I was supposed to have gone right 
straight over there. I was suppo.sed to have gone by my mother's, and I got 
detoured down at Tippit, and I was a little bit late, and she was a little mad. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what time you were supposed to meet her? 

Mr. Croy. No; I just saw her downtown, and we were going to eat. She was 
in her car. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did you see her downtown? Where were you and she 
when you saw each other? 

Mr. Croy. At the courthouse. She pulled up beside me. I asked if anybody 
needed me there, and they .said, "No," and here .she comes and I said, "Do you 
want to get something to eat?" And .she said, "Yes." 

Mr. Griffin. You said you would be right there? 

Mr. Croy. I was going to change my uniform and my clothes were over at 
my mother's and dad's. 

Mr. Griffin. So then as you drove out to change your clothes, what did you 
do? Did you hear something? How did you happen to get over to Tippit's 
place on the way home? 

Mr. Croy. I was on the corner of Zangs and Colorado on my way to my 
mother's and dad's house at that particular time. 

Mr. Griffin. Why were you going to change your clothes at your mother's 
and dad's house? Did you live at your mother's and dad's house at that par- 
ticular time? 

Mr. Croy. Yes. I did for about that 2 weeks. 

Mr. Griffin. Where was your mother's and dad's house from the place that 
you had dinner? 

Mr. Croy. It is quite a ways. It is about 3 or 4 miles. 

Mr. Griffin. How did you go from where you had your lunch or dinner to 
your mother's and dad's house? 

Mr. Croy. Straight out north on Hampton. 

205 



Mr. Griffin. North on Hampton? 

Mr. Crot. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. You were living in your mother's and dad's house at that time? 

Mr. Croy. I slept there. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, was your wife living there also? 

Mr. Cboy. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you separated from her? 

Mr. Crot. No. 

(To reporter: Don't put that in there.) 

Mr. Griffin. Were you separated at that time? 

Mr. Croy. At that time. 

Mr. Griffin. Is there anything else that you think that you could tell as a 
result of your experiences on the 22d, 23d, or 24th, or any other time that would 
be helpful to us, either in the investigation of the assassination of President 
Kennedy, or the murder of Jack Ruby. 

Mr. Croy. You mean Oswald? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Croy. None that I know of. That is as well as I can remember it of what 
happened. 

Mr. Griffin. Thank you very much. 



TESTIMONY OF WILBUR JAY CUTCHSHAW 

The testimony of Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw was taken at 10 :30 a.m., on March 26, 
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's 
Commission. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me state for the record again. My name is Burt Griffin. 
I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the Presi- 
dent's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy. This Commis- 
sion was established as a result of an Executive order that was signed by Presi- 
dent Johnson on November 29. 1963. and a joint resolution of Congress No. 137. 
Pursuant to that joint resolution and the Executive order the Commission has 
prescribed a set of procedures, and in accordance with this provision I have 
been authorized to take your deposition, Mr. Cutchshaw. 

I want to tell you first of all a little bit about the scope of the investigation. 
The Commission has been directed by the President to inquire into and ascer- 
tain all the facts that have to do with the assassination of President Kennedy 
and with the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to evaluate these 
facts and report back to the President. 

We don't have any authority here to prosecute any crimes. We are not 
investigating for that purpose. The only crime that can be committed in con- 
nection with this investigation is the crime of perjury. We are here to try to 
determine the facts, and in order to make sure that the events that have trans- 
pired over the last few months will not be repeated in the future, if that is 
possible, and to attempt to determine whether there is still any danger to our 
chief officers in Government and the national security. 

In doing this, we have had hundreds of interviews conducted by various 
members of the Federal investigatory agencies, and perhaps hundreds is an 
understatement. It may be thousands. We have a stack of documents over 
in a corner that would frighten you. It just represents people who have been 
talked to by the various Federal Bureaus. Now we are undertaking to talk 
to a few other people that we think are particularly central in terms of having 
information that would be useful. 

As to you, Mr. Cutchshaw, we have asked you to come here because we want 
to ascertain what you know in particular about the death of Oswald, and we 

206 



also, however, want any pertinent facts that you may have that would bear 
upon the entire picture. 

You have been asked to api)ear here as a result of a letter which was mailed 
to Chief Curry in the form of a general request from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is 
the general counsel of the President's Commission. Actually, under the rules 
adopted by the Commission you are entitled to get a personal letter from the 
Commission, and 3 days before you testify here. However, the rules do provide 
that you can waive that particular letter, or 3-day written notice. Now, the 
first thing I want to ask you is if you would like us to send you a letter, or if 
you prefer to waive the 3-day notice? 

Mr. CuTcHSHAw. I will waive that notice. 

Mr. Griffin. Also, the rules of the Commission provide that you are entitled 
to be represented by counsel at any time, and many of the people do have 
attorneys here. I want you to feel that we welcome your availing yourself 
of this opportunity if you want to, but I see that you are not here with an 
attorney, and I presume by that fact that you have decided that you don't 
want one. But if you do feel that you would like one, please feel free to indi- 
cate right now and we will certainly 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I don't feel I need one. 

Mr. Griffin. Okay, let me ask you to raise your right hand and swear you in. 
Do your solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I do. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you state your full name? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw. 

Mr. Griffin. When were you born, Mr. Cutchshaw? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. May 27, 1923. 

Mr. Griffin. Where do you presently live? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. 401 Northwest 22d, Grand Prairie, Tex. 

Mr. Griffin. Wliat is your occupation? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. Police officer, Dallas, Tex. 

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been with the jwlice department? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. A little over 9 years. 

Mr. Griffin. Are you in any particular burpau of the police department? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. Criminal investigation division, juvenile bureau. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you hold any particular rank in the department? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. Detective. 

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been with the juvenile bureau? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. About 2^/^ years. 

Mr. Griffin. Where were you the time before that? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. Radio patrol. Mostly working in the West Dallas area. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever work in the downtown Dallas area? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. I think I worked downtown there for about a month. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Jack Ruby before the time he shot Lee Oswald? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. I had seen him one time before. 

Mr. Griffin. Where was that? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. At the Carousel on Commerce. 

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to see him? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. I went up in his place one night. 

Mr. Griffin. How long was that before he shot Oswald? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. That's been about 21/2 years ago, the first time I saw him. 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a copy 
of an interview report prepared by FBI Agents Mabey and Hughes, purporting 
to report an interview they had with you on December 2, 1963. I am marking 
this "Dallas, Tex., Detective Cutchshaw, 3-26-&4, Exhibit 5042." I have marked 
for identification the interview report of December 2, 1963, by Mabey and 
Hughes as Exhibit 5042. I have marked what purports to be a copy of a letter 
signed by you to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 19^3, as Exhibit 5043. And 
I have marked as Exhibit 5044 a copy of a report by FBI Agent James W. 
Bookhout, relating to an interview that Bookhout had with you on Novem- 
ber 24th. That is Exhibit 5044. Now, have you had a chance to look over 
these two interview reports and a copy of your letter? 

207 



Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. Are there any additions or corrections that you would want 
to make in those documents? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I couldn't see any that I would want to make. 

Mr. Geiffin. Okay ; now, you were up in the juvenile bureau all of Sunday 
morning until you were called down in the basement ; is that right? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, during the period that you were up there, do you recall 
who was on duty? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Well, let's see. Officer Goolsby was working the desk, and 
Lowery and myself and Harrison and Miller, I believe it was, and, oh, yes, 
June MeLine, a policewoman. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you recall when it was that you first had any information 
that Lee Oswald might be moved to the county jail? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All I can remember is that Chief Stevenson came up and 
told us he wanted us all to stay up in the office, and at that time it was about 
9 o'clock, I believe it was. And he said that they had to form a security when 
they moved Oswald, but as far as knowing exactly what time, I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. How do you place it? What makes you say that he came up 
about 9 o'clock? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember that he said we had to be there between, 
I believe it was, 9 and 10, and so I looked out the window at the clock, but I 
didn't have my watch, because I had these trousers that didn't have a watch 
pocket, because I have a pocket watch. I don't have a wrist watch, and out 
the window we have a sign that has a big clock. I said I better call the boys from 
the cafe. 

They had already left to go to the cafe, but it was about 9 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. Who were they? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Blackie Harrison and L. D. Miller. 

Mr. Griffin. Who did you say that to? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I believe I asked Captain Martin if he wanted me to call 
and tell them to come back. He said tell them to get back as soon as possible. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you call over at the cafe? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I asked somebody what the number was. and I think it was 
a man on the desk, but it was Goolsby was the one that made the call. I am 
not sure as to whether he did or not. I know somebody had to look it up in 
the book what the number was over there. 

Mr. Griffin. You don't recall whether you made the telephone call or Goolsby 
made it? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I sure don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where it was you called? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I know where they went. I say I think I do. The Deluxe 
Diner, right across from the library on Commerce. 

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to know that? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because that is where they said they were going. That is 
what we call the "greasy spoon." 

Mr. Griffin. Have you talked to Miller and Harrison about their testimony 
before the Commission? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you on duty yesterday? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. 

Mr. Griffin. What duty hours are you working now? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I work from 8 to 4. 

Mr. Griffin. What are your days off? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. On Tuesdays and Wednesdays. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what happened? Do you recall Harrison and 
Miller coming back from the diner? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No ; I know the next time I saw them they were down in 
the basement. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall anybody coming in and directing you to go down 
to the basement? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

208 



Mr. Griffin. Who was that? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Captain O. A. Jones. 

Mr. Griffin. What time would you estimate that was? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Well, I believe that was just before 11 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. How do you fix the time at 11 o'clock? 

Mr. OtJTCHSHAw. Well, I know we weren't down there too long, and when they 
brought Oswald and he was shot, I think it was a little after 11, or 20 minutes 
after, something like that. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who all went downstairs with you at that time? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I think it was Detective Goolsby, R. L. Lowery, and myself, 
and I don't remember who else went down. I know we three were together. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what happened when you got out of the elevator? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes ; we walked into this little hallway lobby deal right in 
front of the jail office, and we had to wait there for a while. They had an 
officer on guard there at the entrance to the hallway. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who that officer was? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you left the jail office, who was it you said went 
down with you ? Goolsby, Lowery, and who else? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. That is the only two, is Officer Goolsby, Lowery, and myself. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where Miller and Harrison were? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No ; I don't. I did see them after that. He came in there, 
and I asked him where he had been, and he said when he came back from the cafe 
he went down in the basement, which is our locker room, to get some cigars. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did you see him? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Down in the lobby. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, then, when you congregated outside that jail office, what 
happened? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Captain Jones came in and told us that we were going to have 
to form a cordon and keep everybody out except those who are authorized, which 
was the police officers and the news media. 

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you anything about what you should do when Oswald 
came down? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. He said to try to keep everybody back and not to let them get 
too close to him. 

Mr. Griffin. You formed along one of the walls ; didn't you? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I was at the door where the doors come out of the jail lobby. 

Mr. Griffin. Maybe it would be easier if you took this diagram and indicate 
on the diagram where. Would it be easier to turn it around the other way? 
Indicate where you were. [Diagram marked Cutchshaw Exhibit No. 5046.] 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. This door is a swinging door, and it was swinging back inside 
the jail, and I was right here at this. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you put an "X" there? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. I was standing right here by the side of the door. 

Mr. Griffin. All right ; now, did you remain there the entire time? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. Yes ; until after the shooting. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what did Captain Jones tell you to do at that particular 
time? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. Captain Jones told us what he wanted done, for us to line up 
the cordons here and block off the doors here, and had officers lined over here, 
so I just got at that position. He didn't put us at any particular position. So I 
was over here. And there was a bunch of newsmen in this area in here. 

Mr. Griffin. In the jail office? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. In the jail office. And I asked him about those and he said 
he wanted everybody out there, and we cleared out the jail office except the 
officers here. 

Mr. Griffin. That is behind the desk? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. When you cleared out those news people in the jail office, did 
anybody help you? 

Mr. Cutchshaw. Yes ; Captain Jones was there. He was right there, and he 

209 



came in with me, and I believe it was a, I think it was Lieutenant Wiggins that 
was on duty that morning. I'm not too sure. 

Mr. Griffin. How many newspaper people would you estimate were in there? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I would say there were about seven or eight in there at the 
time. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see where those people went? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes; they came out this door and to the left. 

Mr. Griffin. The door where you stationed yourself? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did they all go out and turn left as they got out? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. They all turned to the left, and two of them, I don't know 
who they were, I would recognize them if I say them, came into this area here. 

Mr. Griffin. Came behind the double doors? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Came back in from the double doors in front of the jail office 
window. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you put an "N" on the map where the people were? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I wouldn't know the exact position where they went, but two 
of them went in here, and one came back out here and stood for a minute. I 
will put it right in front of this window right here. 

""ir. Griffin. One of them went in there and stayed, and the other one went 
in and came out? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Right ; he came out and was standing out here for a moment. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did he go? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. We made him get back of the hallway, and I think I was right 
about in here. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you put an "N" where that newspaper man was. 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did the remainder of the newspaper people go? 

Mr, CuTCHSHAW. They went back into this area along there. They got a pipe 
rail here, and they had officers along, and somewhere in behind these offices along 
that rail. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, would you plaeo on the map where you recall seeing TV 
cameras? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Put an "N" or what? 

Mr. Griffin. Why don't you draw sort of a rectangle of some sort and write 
TV. Make it big enough. 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. [Complies.] 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were there any other TV cameras in the basement, that you 
recall ? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Not right at first, but another one did come in through the 
door and went down to this iwsition here. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you mark this spot that it went to? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. The last position I saw it in was about in here [indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. How long before Oswald came down did that TV camera come 
out through the double doors and go down to the spot that you have marked in 
the entrance to the garage? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Oh, about 2 or 3 minutes. Just prior to when they were 
coming down. It is when they were coming down. It is when they came 
through the door. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, at any time while you were down there, was there a TV 
camera along the wall that Lowery was on? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. This one right here that came through here, and Lowery was 
standing right here. 

Mr. Griffin. Put an "L" where Lowery was. 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. And they came through right down by him, down this ramp 
here. 

Mr. Griffin. Was there ever a TV camera stationed there? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Not that I remember; no. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if the TV camera which you saw go out into the 
garage area, came down through the public elevators, or through the jail office 
elevators? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I didn't see them come down. 

210 



Mr. Griffin. Did he come through the double doors? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAw. He came through the double doors here, and the service ele- 
vator, public elevators over here. They came through here. As far as where 
they came in, they didn't come out of the jail office. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you clear the newspaper people out of the jail oflSce before 
or after this TV camera? 

Mr. CtjTchshaw. It was before. 

Mr. Griffin. After the TV camera came down, where did you station your- 
self? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I was right back in this door, the same place. 

Mr. Griffin. Still there? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Right there. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you look out towards the TV cameras from time to time? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yeah. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, tell us what you saw as you looked out towards tht TV 
cameras? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Mostly saw lights. I mostly saw lights were shining in my 
eyes here, but there was a line of men along here which consisted of officers and 
news media. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you remember when the armored car came down? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I know when they were trying to back it down, but it 
couldn't get through. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you remember Chief Batchelor being up there by the 
armored car? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I couldn't see the armored car from where I was. 

Mr. Griffin, ciow long did you remain in this position that you have marked 
with an "X" after the TV camera came through? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean how long did I stay there? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Until after the officers and Lee Oswald came through. Then 
I stepped up maybe one or two steps behind them, and that is when the shot 
rang out. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see any of the officers here in this area along the Main 
Street ramp? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Well, I think there was one standing right here, and one right 
here. But just who they were, I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see any of them up further across the Main Street 
ramp? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I don't remember seeing any. I know there was a line of 
men along there, and who they were, I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. From where you were standing, you could see the TV camera 
going in that direction, couldn't you? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I saw the TV camera over here; yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Could you see from where you were .standing any people in 
front of that TV camera? 

Mr. CuTGHSHAW. No ; not that I can remember except there were people right 
in here. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you indicate where you saw people congregating over 
in the area of the entrance to the garage? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No ; I think there were some — I will put a couple of "X's" — I 
think there were some along there, and there were people right along here 
[indicating]. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were you able to see how many lines of people there were 
along across the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Rio Pierce, the same Pierce car go up the ramp? 
Mr. CuTCHSHAw. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see it break through the line of newsmen? 
Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. Did I see a car break through the line? 
Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. All I know, it went up, or when it cleared the way, I know the 
car did go up, because I don't know how many people 

211 



Mr. Griffin. You didn't actually see the car reach the top of the ramp? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did you lose sight of that car? 
Mr. CuTCHSHAW. When it went up past this line here. 

Mr. Griffin. On November 24, the day that Oswald was shot, you prepared 
a letter to Chief Curry, and you were also intei-^-iewed by Agent Bookhout. 
Do you remember those two things? 
Mr. Ctjtchshaw. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember whether you prepared your letter to Curry 
before or after you were interviewed by Bookhout? 
Mr. CuTCHSHAW. It was before. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, after the shooting, did you go back into the 
jail office? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. You followed Ruby and Oswald back in there? 
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I helped carry — I had hold of Ruby's left hand, up as 
far as the jail office door. And all of us couldn't get through at the same time, so 
I released, because there was another man right in front at his shoulder, so I 
let go so they could get in. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs? 
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think I was, because I was there at the door keep- 
ing other people out— after I got in. Let me put it like this: After we got 
Ruby on the inside, I slammed the door, too. 
Mr. Griffin. Did there come a time when you left the jail office? 
Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes ; there was. 

Mr. Griffin. How long after Ruby shot Oswald would you say that was? 
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I imagine it was only a couple of minutes. Just a very short 
time. 
Mr. Griffin. Then where did you go? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I notified this TV camera officer here with two men, I went 

over to talk to them, because they were trying to push it up this ramp by their- 

selves, and I do remember seeing three men with that camera at one time, and 

there was only two men at the time trying to push it. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember what TV camera that was? What station? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Channel 5 on the camera box. 

Mr. Griffin. Have you subsequently learned that it was a Dallas channel 5? 
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think so, that channel 5. I believe it is a Fort Worth 
station. It is one of them, got two of them. 

Mr. Griffin. What channel is channel 5? What station? 
Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I believe that is a Fort Worth station. 
Mr. Griffin. What are the call letters on that? 
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Man, I don't know. 
Mr. Griffin. Is it in your statement anywhere? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I don't know. I don't think I know the call letters. Just 
channel 5 is the only thing I saw on the box. 

Mr. Griffin. How many men were over at the camera at that time? 
Mr. CuTCHSHAW. When I was standing at the door, I had it closed, and I 
looked out and I saw the camera here with only two men. 
Mr. Griffin. Why did you go over to the camera? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember three men being with the camera in 
this area here. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Did you have reason to think one of them might be Ruby? 
Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I didn't at the time, because I figured if there were three 
men pushing it out, why wouldn't there be three men trying to get it up the 
ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. How many did you see get it up the ramp? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Two. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you detain those men? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody assist? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Officer Lowery. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Anybody else? 

212 



Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Not at the time, because we finally got Lieutenant Swain 
over there and he talked with them awhile, and at that time when he and 
Lowery had them, or Swain talked to them, we got their names where we would 
be able to ask information of them later. 

Mr. Griffin. Who was the first one of the two of you to arrive at the TV 
cameras? Was it Lowery or was he there when you came up? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. 

Mr. Griffin. How much later did Lowery come up? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. When I got over there and this one, I don't know jvhat the 
names are, I think this one that had the coat on was Alexander, as well as I 
can remember. He was kind of nervous and shaky. So, then I called Lowery 
to help me out, because I didn't know whether they might be involved or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember where Lowery was standing when you called 
him over? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I believe he was right over in this area. I am not too sure, 
but I think he was, because I could see him from here. 

Mr. Griffin. The point you are talking about is in front of the double doors? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Between the double doors and the driveway close to, I call 
that the north wall. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, at the time Lowery arrived, was Lieutenant Swain there? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No. 

Mr. Griffin. How much longer would you say after Lowery arrived did 
Lieutenant Swain? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Well, in the process after I got Lowery over there and we were 
holding them, we tried to stop two or three oflBcers prior to that, supervisory 
officers, and they were in a hustle trying to get around, and they finally got 
Swain, and I think it was maybe 5 or 6 minutes after Lowery got there, and 
they got Lieutenant Swain to come over and talk to them. Not to talk, but for 
us to have a conference as to what to do about it. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how long did you talk with Lieutenant Swain? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Well, I imagine it was about 3 or 4 minutes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you and Lowery turn the two TV men over to Lieutenant 
Swain? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. When I got the names and everything, Lowery started getting 
their names and I left. 

Mr. Griffin. Did Lowery take the names down in a notebook? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He took the names and he turned them over to the homicide 
office. 

Mr. Griffin. You left, and where did you go? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I came back upstairs to my office. 

Mr. Griffin. On the third floor? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Room 314. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when you got up to the juvenile bureau? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I waited up there until further information. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you wait? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Man, I don't know. We was up there for quite a while. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you eventually go out to Love Field? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, before you went out to Love Field, did you prepare a 
report of what had happened down in the basement? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir ; that is where I went, I am sorry. I am getting con- 
fused, but when I left the basement, I talked to somebody downstairs about it, 
and I think that was Captain Jones, and he said, "Well, go upstairs and write 
out your report, whatever you know, or what you saw." And I went to the 
homicide bureau first and made out my report in written letter form that you 
have, and gave it to the homicide office up there, and then I went to my room, 
which is room 314. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, so at the time you prepared this letter dated— let me 
ask you this: Let me hand you Exhibit 5043. Is that a true and accurate 
copy of a report that you wrote olit in the homicide bureau? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAw. Let me take a minute here [reading report]. You mean 
word for word? 

213 



Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this : I notice you pulled out a set of papers from 
your pocket. You have a copy of the actual report you prepared? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes; I have a copy which is one of the Xerox copies of the 
report which I wrote. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you mind if we made a photocopy of that? And retain 
it for our files? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No, sir; I don't. In fact, it looks like — that is my hand- 
written copy. I don't know whether you can read it or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, I think I can make out your handwriting here. I am 
referring now to the copy of the handwritten report which Detective Crenshaw 
prepared on November 24, 1963, in the homicide bureau office. Approximately 
how long after Ruby shot Oswald? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. About 20 minutes. 

Mr. Griffin. Could it have been longer than that? 

Mr. OuTCHSHAW. It could have been longer, but it was approximately 20 
minutes. 

Mr. Griffin. Could it have been as long as 2 hours later? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I think it was that long. It might have been the way things 
were, but I remember when I left the basement, I did go upstairs, and I did 
go to the homicide office and that is where I wrote the report. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you go up to homicide because somebody in the basement 
told you to go up and write a report on what you saw? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. Who was that? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Captain Jones. I know he told me. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. CuTOHSHAw. And there was a standing order to put it down in writing 
what you saw and what you did. 

Mr. Griffin. Was this after everything had been quieted down in the basement? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes; well, now, I am losing track of my time again. 

Mr. Griffin. It is important that we try to straighten this otit. 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Let's see. I will have to retract some of them. I don't 
want to state it that way. But so far as what I have said, it is true, but as 
far as my time element is concerned, when I left, I had to go up to the first 
floor, and I kept seeing people coming in and out. 

We have three entrances. The Harwood, Main and Commerce, and I think 
there was four of us which were taking names of people coming in and leaving, 
and checking their identification. 

Mr. Griffin. Which entrance was it you were at? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I was checking the Commerce side. I was inside the build- 
ing close to the information desk, but checking those coming in and leaving 
the Commerce Street entrance to the building. So it might have been about 
2 hours after, because I know I was down there for quite awhile. 

Mr. Griffin. When you were at the Commerce Street side, were you at the 
door going out of the building? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No ; I was in the hallway close to the entrance of the hallway. 

Mr. Griffin. As you said before, closer to the information desk? 

Mr. CtJTCHSHAW. Closer to the information where the hallway is in front of 
the desk. 

Mr. Griffin. That is on the first fioor and not in the basement? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. It is on the first floor. 

Mr. Griffin. Do yoti recall who was up there with you taking names? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Lowery there? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No ; I don't think so. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Harrison there? 

Mr. CuTciisiiAW. I don't think he was there. 

Mr. Griffin. Anybody from the juvenile bureau there? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I was the only one from the juvenile. There was about four 
or five officers, two at the desk and one at the Harwood side there, checking 

214 



those, and one on the other side of the desk checking those coming from the 
Main Street, and I was on Commerce Street. 

Mr. Griffix. Did you tell any of the people up there what you had seen ? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No ; not that I can remember. You mean what I saw down 
in the basement? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes ; about your suspicion about those guys pushing the camera. 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were you taken off that duty by anybody? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. Lieutenant came down and told us it was all right to 
secure, that everything was settled down, and that is when I left and went up 
to the homicide office and wrote my report. 

Mr. Griffin. When did you get the instructions to write a report on this? 

Mr. CtTTCHSHAW. Down in the basement. 

Mr. Griffin. Before you got stationed? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Before I had to go upstairs : yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, at the time Captain Jones gave you those instructions 
down there, had the basement sort of quieted down? 

Mr. CtJTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did he give instructions to a bunch of you standing in a group, 
or were you all spread out, or how did it happen? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I think there were two or three of us there, and I asked about 
it, and told him, and he said, "The information is good," but he said, "Put it 
down in writing so you will be able to refer to it later." 

Mr. Griffin. Who else was there at the time? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I don't remember who all was there. 

Mr. Griffin. So, now, on the basis of what you told us, what would be your 
best estimate of how long it was after you saw this cameraman come through 
that you wrote this report? And when I say on the basis of what you said, 
I don't mean that I want you to conform to anything you have said, but taking 
into account all the discussion we have had now, what is your best judgment 
as to how long it was? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About an hour and a half or 2 hours. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you took the names of the two men you found at 
the camera 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't take the names. 

Mr. Griffin. Lowery took those names? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. How were those two men dressed? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. One of them had on a long black coat. One of these kind of, 
like a raincoat — topcoat combination deal, and the other one, best I can remember, 
had on a greenish shirt and khaki trousers. 

Mr. Griffin. Where had those two men. as you recall, where had they been 
on the cameira as it was being pushed through? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. You mean where? How were they positioned there? 

Mr. Griffin. Where was the man in the black coat? 

Mr. CxrrcHSHAW. The man in the black coat was on the left side of the camera, 
and the other one was on the right. 

Mr. Griffin. There was one man in between? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. As far as I can remember, yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you discuss that man with those people that you and 
Lowery confronted? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. You mean the two men at the camera? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. CtTTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you ask tJiem where the third man was? 

Mr. OuTCHSHAW. I asked them where the third man was who had helped them 
with the camera, and they told me they didn't know there was any third man 
there. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you ask those men where that camera had been before it 
came through the double doors? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No. 

215 

731-228 O— 64— vol. XII 15 



Mr. Griffin. Have you subsequently learned where it was before it came 
through the double doors? 

Mr. CuTCHSiiAW. Yes. I heard it had been up on the third floor, and that they 
were bringing it down because it had the telescopic lens, and they were wanting 
to get a shot taking Oswald up the ramp to the armored car. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you learn the names of the two men that you talked with 
out at that camera? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAw. I have not since then, no. At the time, I thought one was 
named John Alexander, but I don't know what their names are. 

Mr. Griffin. When Lowery saw you questioning those two men. do you 
recall if Lowery at that time remembered that there had been a third man on 
the camera? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Well, when I called him over there, I told him what I had, 
and he said, "Yes, he remembered a third man being with them." 

Mr. Griffin. But Lowery came over at your beckoning? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Lowery did not come over spontaneously? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. When you arrived up in the homicide office to write your report, 
who was there? 

Mr. CrTCHSHAW. Lowery was there, and there was some officers from the homi- 
cide bureau there, and Captain Fritz was in his oflSce, and I think there was a 
Secret Service man there with him. I don't know what his name was. I was 
told it was a Secret Service man. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you know L. D. Montgomery? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. You mean the detective? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall whether he was there? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I don't recall whether he was or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Blackie Harrison there when you arrived? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I think he was there in the office. I believe he was in there, 
and there was Lieutenant Wallace. I just don't remember who else was there. 
I know the place was full. 

Mr. Griffin. Who else was there? Let me ask you — I want to ask you here 
to speculate a little bit but at the same time to give me an honest opinion on 
this. 

You have had a chance to talk with many police officers, I presume, about all 
the events that took place, and you know of all the rumors that there have 
been about the man walking down the Main Street ramp and so forth and so on. 

Do you still feel — can you tell me whether or not you still have a belief that 
Jack Ruby might have been the man who pushed that camera in, in your own 
mind? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in my own mind, I can tell you this : I did see the third 
man with the camera, and it struck me so strange that only two men — there 
were three men, but still only two were trying to push the camera, and that is 
the reason I went out and contacted the two men. 

Let me tell you, I did learn from Lieutenant Wallace — that is one of the 
investigators on the thing for the city — one of you might have talked with 
him — that you contacted the crews on this camera — and he did say that a man 
that was with these cameras over here that at about — see, there is a slight 
decline in this area right here where Lowery was. 

Mr. Griffin. There was a decline where Lowery was standing? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. At the time that that camera was being pushed, a man came 
from this crew over here and helped them push it on down. If there is where 
I got the three men, but I do remember seeing three men on that camera. 

Mr. Griffin. And, in other words, somebody came over to the two-man crew? 

Mr. CuTCHSiiAw. Off one of these cameras here. Channel 5 already had one 
camera down here, but they said — that is where I got the reason for this — they 
brought the wide angle lens and they wanted one of the telescopic lens to get 
a shot of him walking up the ramp to where the armored car was. But still I 
did see three men pushing that camera through here. 

216 



(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Griffin. Let's put this on the record. Now, as I understand the story that 
you heard was that a man came from the two TV cameras, from the channel 5 
camera that was already stationed behind a railing? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. All right. 

Mr. Griffin. And came off and assisted two other men who had already been 
pushing that camera through the door, and that man reached the camera at 
approximately when that camera was near Lowery? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. That is what I was told, what I heard. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, if that were true, do you think as you look at — out in the 
area toward where Lowery and that camera would have been at (hat point, 
that you would have seen a man walk over there to that camera? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. If I had been looking there at that time, I could have ; yes. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, what I am getting at is, the area that was in 
front of those two stationery TV cameras was clear, wasn't it? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes ; because the cameras and lights were right here. And 
they had lights up here shining in here. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Now, the camera came this route here through these swinging 
doors. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see it come through the swinging doors? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes ; I saw it coming through the swinging doors because 
these doors came open and they come through, and I was standing right here. I 
wasn't right exactly at the comer door, but I was in the doorway at the time. 

I held one of the doors open when they came through, and the camera came 
right on down here and was parked in this area. 

Mr. Griffin. You are indicating on the chart that it was pushed through the 
swinging doors where Lowery was stationed and over to the point that you have 
marked it as the final resting place in the garage entrance? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is where I saw it ; yes. 

Mr. Griffin. You have also been told that this same channel 5 had some other 
new camera behind the railing? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, in front of that railing, was that area in front of the railing 
clear of people at the time that that camera came through? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it was exactly clear or not. I 
know that right after the camera came through, that these men down here started 
hollering to everyone to clear back. Evidently some were standing in front of 
the cameras down there and that is why they had to clear them out. 

So far as I remember, most of the people were standing here, and in front of 
the door, and on the south side of the hallway into the ramp, and on the north 
side of the hallway, and into the ramp there. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, this guy you say had on a dark suit? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if he had on a hat? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I do not, because the man I saw was bent over pushing like 
that [indicating]. All three is what struck me strange that all three of them, 
not one was putt-ng all his weight, but all three were bent over pushing like that. 

Mr. Griffin. At the time that you ran for those TV cameras after the shooting, 
did you know that Jack Ruby had been the person who shot Oswald? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I knew that. I helped carry the man through the jail office 
doors to the jail office, and while I was there standing guard on the doors, some- 
one said who is he, and a guy said it is Jack Ruby. And I was standing in the 
door when a doctor came in right after we got Ruby in there and they brought 
Oswald, and immediately thereafter, someone was banging on the door trying 
to get through, and I tried to push him out, and he said he was a doctor, and 
that he had been called. And I run my hand down his side and he had the 
stethoscope in his right hand coat pocket, and I let him through. 

Mr. Griffin. So, by the time you ran to the TV cameras, you knew that Ruby 
was the man? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I knew that Ruby was the man. They said he was Jack 
Ruby. 

217 



Mr. Griffin. Now, if you had seen the third man after it reached, or as it 
reached Lowery, do you think you would have seen that man move from the TV 
cameras to the channel 5 camera that was stationed behind the railing? Do you 
think you would have seen him move from there to the position of the camera? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Well, let me put it this way : I didn't just watch this camera 
all the way through, because it done past this point, and the next time I saw it, 
I remember seeing it when I was looking through the square glass in the door 
when I was holding it to, and I saw the two men push it up here. 

So, I don't know whether I was looking at the camera at the time I was down 
here, but I didn't see anyone go around to the camera. 

Mr. Griffin. At the time that the TV camera came through the door, the double 
doors, you were looking through another glass? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No ; now at the time it came through the door, this door was 
being opened from the inside. 

Mr. Griffin. This single door that entered into the jail oflSce opened inward 
toward the jail office, and it didn't obstruct your view? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No ; they came through the swinging door. I was standing in 
the doorway and I held this door open. 

Mr. Griffin. You held open the swinging doors for them? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAw. Right : when they came through. 

Mr. Griffin. You pulled it back toward yourself? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They were already going past, and I grabbed ahold. 

Mr. Griffin. So, the swinging doors were between you, your face and them? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAw. No; I was standing at the edge of this swinging door holding 
it back for them. 

Mr. Griffin. So, you were behind the swinging doors when you were holding 
the end of the swinging door, and you were off to the side? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. And there was nothing on part of that door which was between 
you and them? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. 

Mr. Griffin. How far away would you say you were from those men at that 
point? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 3 feet. Maybe 2, or I could have reached out and put 
my hand on one of them. 

Mr. Griffin. Could you see the faces of those men? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. The one on the left, the one that had on a black coat, when 
he came through, he looked up like that and he was pushing on through. 

Mr. Griffin. When you ultimately met over there, you confronted those men 
afterward and saw the man in the black coat, was it the same man that turned 
up and looked at you? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Is there any question in your mind about that? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No ; I remember his nose real good. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, after those men passed you, did you let the doors swing 
back, or did you walk back with it, or what did you do? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAw. I just turned loose of it. There was another officer that 
closed right in behind them. 

Mr. Griffin. There were other officers that closed in behind the TV camera- 
men? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did those officers go? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. They just stood there. There were some standing in front 
of the door at the time. 

Mr. Griffin. But you didn't follow them through the door? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No. They were already stationed there, and then when they 
started pushing through, the doors came open, and the officers just moved aside. 

Mr. Griffin. As that door swung shut, do you recall whether you then looked 
back up the hallway from which that camera had come to see if other people 
were coming down, or whether you might have looked in toward the jail office, 
or whether you continued to watch them go on? 

Mr, CuTCHSHAW. I don't remember. 

218 



Mr. Griffin. Do you remember any activity back here in that hallway im- 
mediately after you let go of that swinging door? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Well, just a little, maybe a minute or two. 

Mr. Griffin. Later? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. But not immediately thereafter? Do you have any recollection 
of seeing anything back there immediately thereafter? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, right after, right after this, the doors came to here, a 
man stepped away from the wall over there, the one I told you previously where 
one came into the hallway. 

Mr. Griffin. A newspaperman? A newspaper person? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Stepped away fi'om this area where you have the "N" marked? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did he walk to? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He walked out toward the swinging doors and motioned for 
somebody to come out. 

Mr. Griffin. And your attention was attracted to him? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you actually see that man move away? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. Who moved away from right here and stepped about 
half way from where he was standing up to the swinging doors. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Have you watched the movies of all this? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I just seen it one time. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Are you able to state whether what you are telling 
us now is from your own knowledge, or is it confused with anything you may 
have seen in the movies? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Because I remember when he stepped out, I made him get 
back, and I told him to get back up against the wall. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall whether you were looking in his direction when 
be did this, or whether your attention was attracted to him and then you had to 
look at him? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think I was looking in the hallway in this area here when 
he stepped out, and he stepped, there was only about two steps. 

Mr. Griffin. You say in this area here. You mean you were looking in 
the direction of Lowery? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes, in here. 

Mr. Griffin. She can't write that. I am going to have to explain for the 
record. 

Were you looking in the direction of Lowery, or in the direction of the railing? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in the direction of the TV camera which was being 
pushed out at this time. 

Mr. Griffin. That man walked out, and you got out to motion somebody in, and 
you pushed him back? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I told him to get back up against the wall. 

Mr. Griffin. At that point do you believe that if somebody had walked out 
from the channel 5 camera that was already in place behind the railing, are you 
able to state whether or not you would have seen him get in position and help 
push that other camera? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, that is kind of hard to say, because when I looked out 
here and he stepped out there, and I told him to get back, I don't know whether 
I would notice anybody at that camera, because my attention at this time was 
at the man that stepped away from the hallway. 

Mr. Griffin. However, whatever struck your attention to the general place- 
ment of the people in front of those TV cameras, do you recall whether there 
were people in front of the TV cameras at any time before you saw this other 
TV camera come out of the hallway? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAw. Whether they were exactly in front of the TV cameras, I 
don't know, but I know there was lots of people along this north wall and in 
the driveway. 

Mr. Griffin. You are not indicating anything that is directly in front of the 
TV camera? 

219 



Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Well, shortly after this camera came through, someone hol- 
lered, "Here they come," or else I think I forget, or "They are on their way 
down" — we have lights on the basement showing where the elevator is coming 
down, and someone hollered to clear the way for the cameras — to get out from in 
front of the cameras — but as far as me telling how many people were in front 
of the cameras, I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Had you ever talked to Lowery about whether he saw some 
man come from the channel 5 stationary camera and help push the moving 
camera into that space? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Now, Lowery and I were talking when Lieutenant Wallace 
told us — he said, if I remember right, Wallace, he says, "I believe I think I found 
out where you got the third man." And we asked him where, and he said he 
found out from the crew that a man came from the other channel 5 camera that 
was already in the basement and helped them down this short incline, because 
the camera was rocking. 

And I said, "I don't remember anybody, but I do remember seeing three men 
on the camera." And, Lowery said the same thing, that he did remember seeing 
the three men. But I don't remember anybody coming from here to the camera. 

Mr. Griffin. Let's go ahead now, sir. When you were up there filling out your 
report in the homicide ofBce — when you talked with these men that you finally 
detained after the shooting, the two men that you detained, did you describe 
to them the third man that was with them? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No. 

Mr. Griffin. When you asked them where is the third man and he said there 
wasn't, what did they say? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They just told me that there wasn't any, that if there was a 
third man there, they didn't know about it. 

Mr. Griffin. Was anybody else standing with you at the time they said that? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe OflScer Lowery was there at that time. But the first 
thing, I went right out there and got a hold of both of them and asked them, 
"Where is the other man that came out with them." And he said, "There 
wasn't any other man." And I said, "I know there were three men with you 
when you came out." And he said, "If there was one between us, they don't 
know nothing about it." And I don't remember whether OflScer Lowery was 
there, but I don't think he was there, but we did question them again, and I 
still think there was a third man. 

Mr. Griffin. How about Officer Swain, did he make that denial to Swain? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't really know, because that is when I left and had to go 
up to the first floor. Lowery started getting their names and they talked to 
Lieutenant Swain and told them what it was, and he said, "Go ahead and get 
their names and ask where they are going to be." 

Mr. Griffin. Who was it that came up to you and told you that he had found 
out, had an explanation for the third man. 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Lieutenant Wallace. 

Mr. Griffin. How long was that after Sunday, November 24? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I imagine that was maybe a week or two, because through 
their investigation they tried to contact everybody that was down there. It 
was quite some time. The exact amount of days, I don't know, but it was quite 
some time after that he explained it to us. 

Mr. Griffin. When you got up to the homicide office, did Lowery fill out a 
report? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did Harrison fill out a report while you were out there? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I think he did. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you all talk about this when you were up there? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes ; I believe we did. 

Mr. Griffin. I take it that you were all — as a matter of fact, this was prob- 
ably a matter of general interest to everybody up there, don't you imagine? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. You think anybody could have been in that office without know- 
ing what you guys had seen? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think so, because we don't tell everybody up there in the 

220 



office. Of course, at the time we wrote out a report, I think there was me, 
Lowery, and I believe Harrison did come back and start writing out his, and 
I think Lieutenant Wallace, and he said put down what y.iu saw and what you 
know only, and that is the way I wrote out my report. 

Mr. Griffin. You mentioned the guys you were talking with about it, so 
anybody other than you and Lowery who might have been there could have 
heard it and might have told it to somebody else? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAw. Possiibly ; yes. But we didn't talk a whole lot while we were 
writing the report. We just sat down and wrote it out. 

Mr. Griffin. How about after you wrote the report? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. We went back to our office and shot the bull and gabbed 
about it. 

Mr. Griffin. And speculated about it? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. Did other people come in there? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. How about other members of the juvenile bureau? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Officer Goolsby there? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. In the office. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Martin there? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes ; he was out there quite a bit. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Miller there? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you think of anybody else who was in that office after 
you had written out your report and were talking about this ? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let's see. There was a reporter up there. You mean so 
far as officers is concerned, or just anybody? 

Mr. Griffin. Give me just the officers first. 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe June McLine, and then I believe that covered all the 
officers and myself and Harrison and Miller, and Goolsby, and McLine, and 
then there were other officers, I know, but I don't know who all they were. 
I don't remember. And they had that one little reporter from up north some- 
where. 

Mr. Grib'fin. One of those Yankee reporters? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. Like Cleveland, Ohio, maybe? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't know where he was from, but I didn't like him very 
much. Then there was a French reporter. 

Mr. Griffin. A French reporter was up there? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Had you seen that French reporter when you were down in 
the basement? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think so. I'm not going to swear, because there were so 
darn many of them. 

Mr. Griffin. Had you seen that French reporter there before this? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; because he and some other reporters from up North, 
they kind of made our office their office, you might say. That was their base 
of operation. 

Mr. Griffin. What did that French reporter tell you? Did he see that TV 
camera come through? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAw. I didn't talk to him about it or ask him. 

Mr. Griffin. Did any of the people who were up there in the office indicate 
they had also seen the TV camera come through? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think Goolsby said he saw the camera come through but 
he didn't remember anything about who was pushing it or anything. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Griffin. Did you view the TV film with these men coming through? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

221 



Mr. Griffin. From your recollection of that TV film, could you see the third 
man on the camera pushing it through? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No ; the only two I could see was just the two that I gave 
a description. It was one on the right that had, I think, the greenish-type 
shirt, and the one on the left that had the black coat. 

Mr. Griffin. Try to remember that TV film. Did that TV film which you 
saw, did that show the camera as it came through the door? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did it show the man looking up at you? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it did or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Is the camera shot taken from such a position that if there 
had been a third man behind the camera, it would have showed up on the 
TV picture? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Now, the camera shot on this one that was coming up on the 
door was a straight-on shot, and whether they would show up, I didn't see 
any other man. If he had been there, he would be directly behind the stand. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how far that TV picture of the men coming out 
of the swinging doors follows the camera as it proceeds through the swinging 
doors? Out past Lowery? Does it show Lowery up on the TV? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it does or not, because at the time 
I saw the film, I was just looking at the camera to see whether I could see 
anybody behind it or not. The way the picture was on the film, it shows the 
camera coming out, and it was passing out of range of the TV camera that was 
taking the pictures at the time. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how soon after Oswald was shot did you view those 
TV films? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember. 

Mr. Geiffin. Was it before or after Lieutenant Wallace reported to you 
that he could solve the problem of the third man? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I believe it was after. 

Mr. Griffin. You saw the film after you talked to Wallace? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall in looking at those TV films whether you show 
up in the TV film? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. On one of the films I do, but whether it was on the TV or 
one of the camera pictures, I don't remember. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, on the films that you watched, do you recall whether 
those films show you looking at the men? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Like I say, I don't even remember seeing them. You know, 
one showed me, but I think I was looking almost straight out at an angle from 
the door where I was standing. 

Mr. Griffin. In any other films which you have seen, is there depicted 
the episode where the newsmen moved out from the position that you have 
marked with an "N" on the north wall of the entranceway to between the jail 
ofiice and the ramp? Does it show that man coming out and your motioning 
him back as you have described? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No ; I don't remember. 

Mr. Griffin. I am asking you these questions because I am trying to get 
you to refresh your recollection even more. 

Now, Detective Cutchshaw, we all know that shortly after Ruby shot Oswald, 
a certain amount of heat was focused on Blackie Harrison. You are aware 
of that, aren't you? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, I want you to tell me honestly — I think you have tried 
to be strictly forthright to me in describing this camera. 

Do you think that your concern about Harrison in any way has affected 
what you remembered about this event? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Griffin. Didn't Harrison indicate shortly after this event that he was 
worried about this, because Ruby had come right past him? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. 

222 



Mr. Griffin. Didn't he talk about that by the time you got back to the 
juvenile bureau? 

Mr. CuTOHSHAW. I don't remember whether lie talked about it ; he just said 
that he remembered seeing this man come out and this gun come up, and he 
described to me, but as far as him saying he was worried about it, I don't 
remember that. As far as any reflection on himself 

Mr. Griffin. I was not trying to talk particularly about whether Blackie 
saw Jack there a few minutes ago. Honestly, I don't care to know if that is 
true, but to me, that is no reflection on him. But it is very important for us 
to flnd out what happened, because if we don't know what happened, we have 
to speculate and wonder whether there was somebody else involved here. 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Well, let me tell you ; I came down here. A lot of people say 
I need a lawyer, but I don't want one because I came down to tell you the truth 
and just the way I saw it. I told you what I saw. Of course, some of my 
time elements are a little bit this way, but I said what I saw, and the only 
thing I did tell you 

Mr. Griffin. I want you to tell me, and this is what is important, what you 
feel at this point, what your motivation, unconscious or conscious, is in this, 
and I don't expect you to tell me that Blackie thought that he saw the man or 
anybody else, but I want to know if you feel that what you have told me today 
in such a determined and what appeared to me forthright fashion, is based, is 
affected in any way because of the concern of anybody in the juvenile bureau, 
about Harrison and Lowery and Miller and anybody else in the bureau who 
was down there, and in particular to have seen Ruby if he came in? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I believe that if Blackie Harrison had seen Ruby come in, he 
would have put him out. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, to what extent, I want to know, do you think that this con- 
cern of your affects your story, honestly? 

I could tell this story and honestly believe everything I am telling, but yet 
we all know unconsciously our emotions are affected. 

How much are you being affected by that concern of Harrison? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. None of my story or anything I have told you has been af- 
fected in any way for any concern for any one person in the department. 

I came down here to tell you this, and everything is just the way I saw it. 
And as far as concern for any one individual, I don't have any. 

Now, Blackie is a friend of mine, and I have known him for a long time. I 
have no concern for him, because I don't think he did anything wrong. And I 
think if he had seen the man, he would have put him out. 

Mr. Griffin. Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out, then he did the 
wrong thing. 

Mr. Griffin. And you think he would have been disciplined for that, too, 
don't you? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he would be disciplined for that, too, and he would 
be, if he had seen the man and hadn't put him out. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you think that if Blackie knew that he wouldn't be disci- 
plined for this, and if somebody were to tell him now that he wouldn't be 
disciplined and it wouldn't be made known to anybody in the public or even 
anybody in the police department, and it actually turned out Blackie did see 
this guy, do you think Blackie would tell us about that? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he would. Blackie is an honest man. In fact, the 
way it is right now, if he had saw the man, I believe he would tell you he had. 

Mr. Griffin. You heard the story that Blackie had taken some sort of medicine 
before he took that lie detector test? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No ; I haven't. 

Mr. Griffin. You haven't heard that story? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No. 

Mr. Griffin. You are concerned, I take it, about the department, though you 
said you are not concerned about any particular man in the department, but 
you are concerned about the department? 

223 



Mr. CUTCHSHAW. As far as doing anything wrong? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, you act 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. The way you are talking is that I am concerned that I think 
we have done something wrong. I don't think there is one wrongdoing, as far as 
the oflScers are concerned and what happened down there. I didn't think like 
that. 

Departmental wise or individualwise, there are things pro and con of what 
should have happened and what shouldn't have happened. 

One way of looking, there shouldn't have been any news media, and maybe 
they shouldn't have been spread out that way, but we would have caught the 
dickens that way. 

And, as I heard. Chief Curry had the okay from a little higher up to go ahead 
and have the news media, and it didn't turn out too good. 

But as far as wrongdoings, there is not one wrong thing that happened as far 
as our department is concerned. 

Mr. Griffin. How about Lowery? Are you much of a friend with Lowery? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. We ride to work together and run ai'ound a bit together. 

Mr. Griffin. How friendly are you with Harrison? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We are good friends, but as far as running around, he lives 
way over in Pleasant Grove, and I live in Grand Prairie. It is way across town, 
so we don't get around together. 

Mr. Griffin. Lowery had seen Ruby. Did Lowery know Ruby? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Did he recognize Ruby before? 

Mr. Griffin. He had seen Ruby on a number of occasions, actually, didn't he 
before? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. You mean before this happened? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I tell you the truth, I really don't know. I think he said he 
knew him, or seen him around, but as far as actual standing there, I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Captain King in the basement at any time prior to 
the shooting? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, now, that I don't remember whether I saw him down 
there prior to the shooting or whether it was after. There was a whole bunch 
of officers down there, and, man, I do remember a few immediately right there, 
and someone that came out the door, because I was right there and watched 
them as they came out. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, now, if you and Captain King had been standing together 
and you both saw Ruby and you both knew Ruby, what would you do? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, now, you mean if we saw him come into the basement, 
or if we saw him standing there? 

Mr. Griffin. Saw him standing down there and you were both standing there 
together? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. Well, that is something that is pretty hard to say, honestly, 
because the basement is supposed to be secured when we went down there. 

In other words, everybody that wasn't supposed to be there, was supposed to 
be out, and they had officers checking them coming in, and me not knowing 
Ruby, I probably wouldn't have known him if I had been shown him on the 
street. 

Mr. Griffin. If you knew Ruby and you both were standing there, if you knew 
him and you and Captain King were standing there, and you knew Captain 
King was looking at him too 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I would have tried to find out what he was doing, knowing he 
wasn't a newsman or couldn't have a news pass. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you have deferred to Captain King or any other superior 
officer? Would you let him take the initiative on it? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I would have asked him myself if I had seen him, because 
that is what we were down there for. 

Mr. Griffin. What I am trying to get at, and the only reason I use Captain 
King — I could have used Chief Batehelor or anybody like that, but my point 
is, that if a junior officer like you and a senior officer were standing together, 

224 



is there any feeling that you would defer to the senior officer to take the 
initiative in throwing some guy out? 

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. If he were in charge of me or in charge of security and if I 
saw Jack Ruby there and he didn't have a pass on and I knew him and knew 
that he was not a news representative, then if I confronted him and he said, 
"Chief Batchelor said it was okay," then I would have asked the chief if it 
was all right. 

Otherwise, I wouldn't say the chief had anything to do with it and I would 
put him out. 

Mr. Griffin. So, if you had seen him first, you would have gone directly to 
him and then turned to your superior officer and said what shall I do about 
this guy? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. I would have went directly to him. 

Mr. Griffin. You would have gone directly to him. Do you think that is 
true of any other officer or do you think some of them would have acted 
different? 

Mr. CuTCHSHAW. That is hard to say, not knowing every officer's traits. Some 
operate one way and some operate another. 

Mr. Griffin. I want you to examine Cutchshaw Exhibits Nos. 5042, 5043, 5044, 
5045, and 5046, and if there are no further additions or corrections to make to 
those in addition to all this we have been talking about, then I would like you 
to sign each one of these and date them. 

Mr. Cutchshaw. Where do you want me to sign? 

Mr. Griffin. Sign it in a conspicuous place where I have placed the mark 
on the paper. Sign your name and date it. Regular signature or full name. 



TESTIMONY OF NAPOLEON J. DANIELS 

The testimony of Napoleon J. Daniels was taken at 2:40 p.m., on April 16, 
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and 
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of 
the President's Commission. 

Mr. Hubert. My name is Leon Hubert, Mr. Daniels. I'm a member of the 
advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission under the 
provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963. and joint resolu- 
tion of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission 
in conformance with the Eixecutive order and the joint resolution, and I have 
been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Daniels. 

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to 
ascertain, evaluate, and to report on the facts relating to the assassination of 
President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, 

In particular as to you, Mr. Daniels, the nature of the inquiry today is to 
determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other per- 
tinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and, of course, about the 
entry of Jack Ruby into the basement of the police department. 

Now, Mr. Daniels, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a written 
request sent to you by mail. 

Mr. Daniexs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. And signed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin. 

Mr. Daniels. Correct. 

Mr. Hubert. General Counsel of the President's Commission. 

Mr. Daniels. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes ; I received it Saturday, I believe. 

Mr. Hubert. Last Saturday? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Let the record show that this is Thursday. 

Mr. Daniels. It has been 3 days. 

225 



Mr. Hubert. Will you raise your right hand, stand, and take the oath, pleaS'e? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter will 
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Daniels. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. State your full name? 

Mr. Daniels. Napoleon J. Daniels. 

Mr. Hubert. Your age? 

Mr. Daniels. Thirty-two. 

Mr. Hubert. And your residence? 

Mr. Daniels. 2229 Sutter [spelling] S-u-t-t-e-r. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation, Mr. Daniels? 

Mr. Daniels. Real estate broker. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been so occupied ? 

Mr. Daniels. About 3 years. 

Mr. Hubert. I think you own your own company? 

Mr. Daniels. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. You were at one time connected with the jwlice department, 
were you not? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes ; about 7 years. 

Mr. Hubert. About 7 years? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. When did you leave the police department? 

Mr. Daniels. I left there in November 1962. 

Mr. Hubert. What were the circumstances under which you left? 

Mr. Daniels. Let me see just how I can put this — well, I resigned, of course, 
I was asked to resign because of some conflicts I had with a tenant living in 
one of my apartments. 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, you rented out some property to a tenant and 
you had some difficulty with the tenant? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And on account of that difficulty they asked you to resign from 
the police department? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. You did resign? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And have you continued in the business under the name N. J. 
Daniels Real Estate Co.? 

Mr. Daniels. That's right, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Is that a corporation? 

Mr. Daniels. No ; just a company. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I know you have already made a statement to the FBI, 
as a matter of fact, I think you have made two statements, one to the State 
police — I would now just like for you to tell us what you know of entry of 
Jack Ruby into the basement? 

Mr. Daniels. Well, actually, I don't feel like I really know anything, but I 
saw a guy go in the basement, but I don't think it was Ruby. 

Mr. Hubert. Let's start off with that morning, of course, you knew that the 
President had been killed? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And as I understand, you were riding in your own car over 
towards the place where he was killed? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes, I was going out Main Street. I was going — let's see, 
that was Sunday morning and I was going down Main Street to look at 
the spot where the President had been assassinated and as I drove by the 
city hall, I noticed a bunch of people standing around and noticed this officer 
standing in the entrance to the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. On Main Street? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes ; on Main Street, and so I made the block and turned 
around and came back and parked. 

Mr. Hubert. Where did you park? 

Mr. Daniels. Pardon? 

Mr. Hubert. Where did you park? 

226 



Mr. Daniels. On Main there, right down from the city hall there, I guess 
about a half a block down. 

Mr. Hubert. On the other side of the street? 

Mr. Daniels. On the same side of the city hall, you see, I went around and 
came back. 

Mr. Hubert. You went around what street? 

Mr. Daniels. Now, that first street down, I guess that's — I was going down 
Main and turned, I believe the first block. 

Mr. Hubert. Would that have been Pearl? 

Mr. Daniels. No ; you see, I was going west on Main and the first street I 
could turn — I think the first street is a one way going left, but I turned and 
came back the other way, so it must have been Ervay where I turned and 
went up to Pacific and then come back up to Harwood and then came down 
Harwood to Main and made a left on Main and parked up in a vacant space 
on the other side of the city hall — on the east side of the city hall. 

Mr. Hubert. I thought you had parked at a parking lot near the Western 
Union office? 

Mr. Daniels. No ; it wasn't a parking lot. I was thinking I parked on the 
street. 

Mr. Hubert. You parked on the street? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Was it near the Western Union office? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes ; right down from the city hall. In other words, it was 
in between there and the city hall. 

Mr. Hubert. But you were parked on Main Street? 

Mr. Daniels. On the south side of Main. 

Mr. Hubert. Not in a parking lot? 

Mr. Daniels. No ; I wasn't at a parking lot, no, I think I parked on the 
street, I'm sure. 

Mr. Hubert. And you parked on the same side of the street as the city hall 
and as the police department is and as the Western Union office is? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And you parked at a spot between the Western Union office 
and the Main Street entrance of the city hall? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Or the police department? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. You are familiar with that building, because you worked there 
for a long time? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you say you were about half way between the Western 
Union and the Main ramp, or just what distance between those two? 

Mr. Daniels. Oh, let me see, let me get it in my mind — I would say I was 
a little neaier the Western Union Building than I was to the entrance of the 
basement of the city hall. 

Mr. Hubert. Are you familiar with that alley that goes from Main Street 
back in towards Commerce and makes an "L" and comes out on Pearl Street? 

Mr. Daniels. I think I was just on the east side of that. 

Mr. Hubert. When you say "east," it doesn't mean anything to me. 

Mr. Daniels. Near Pearl. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you were on the Western Union side of the 
alley? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. And your car was facing towards the Western Union? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, about what time was it when you got there? 

Mr. Daniels. Near 11 o'clock — I wasn't paying much attention to the time, 
it mtist have been near 11 o'clock or a little after. 

Mr. Hubert. How do you fix that? 

Mr. Daniels. Well, I'm trying to fix it at about the time Oswald was shot. 
Now, I was there about 20 or 2.5 or 30 minutes before it happened. 

227 



Mr. Hubert. When you parked your car, did you sit in your car any length 
of time at all? 

Mr. Daniels. No ; I got out and walked back up there. 

Mr. Hubert. You mean you immediately got out and walked back up to the 
Main door — the Main door entrance? 

Mr. Daniexs. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I'm going to show you a drawing, which among other 
things includes the entrance to the basement, and I am marking it for the 
purpose of identification as follows : 

"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5324, Deposition of N. J. Daniels," 
and I am marking it with my name. 

I would like you to study this, and I point out to you that this is Main Street, 
here is the Western Union oflBce, and here is Pearl. 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Over in that direction would be Harwood, Commerce is over 
here. 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. This is the Main Street entrance? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. The sidewalk. 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And I think you are familiar with the fact that, there is a stone 
fence about 2 feet high that runs from the entrance of Main Street toward the 
street some distance. 

Mr. Danishes. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, as I understand it, you were parked on Main Street itself? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Facing towards the Western Union Building? 

Mr. Daniels. This side of the street. 

Mr. Hubert. On the same side of the street as the Western Union Building? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And that you reached there at approximately 11 o'clock? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes ; at approximately 11 o'clock. 

Mr. Hubert. You immediately got out of your car and you walked toward 
the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. When you got down there, did you go past the ramp, or did you 
stay on the Western Union side of the ramp? 

Mr. Daniels. I think when I first got there, I walked over in front of the 
little entrance down in there. 

Mr. Hubert. So you could look right down the ramp? 

Mr. Daniels. So I could look in there, because I was on the sidewalk when 
I did that. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you know OflBcer Vaughn? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Hubert. You had known him from the time you were on the police force? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he recognize you? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And you went to the middle of the ramp, but still on the side- 
walk and looked down the sidewalk? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you stay there very long? 

Mr. Daniels. No ; I spoke to him and he told me that he was blocking any- 
body's entrance, in other words, that's what he meant, that he was blocking any- 
body's entrance into the basement. That's what he was there for. 

Mr. Hubert. He was posted at that spot — where was he standing? 

Mr. Daniels. He was standing right in the middle of the entrance there. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I'm going to mark on Exhibit 5324 a position which I am 
going to call "1" and I am putting a circle on it and I'm going to draw a line, 
and then I'm going to put "First position of Daniels," is that about correct? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes, that's about correct. 

228 



Mr. Hubert. Now, I'm going to mark a position called "2" and I'm going to 
draw a line, and I'm going to mark it "position of Vaughn when Daniels was in 
position number "1", and ask you if that is correct? 

Mr. Daniels. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. And as you said, he recognized you and you recognized him? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And you looked down? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Then what did you do? 

Mr. Daniels. I stepped back over to the bannister and 

Mr. Hubert. You mean back towards the Western Union? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever go on the other side of the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Daniels. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Towards Harwood? 

Mr. Daniels. No— at no time — I never did. 

Mr. Hubert. When you say you went towards the bannister, were you on the 
inside of the bannister, that is to say, between the bannister and the ramp, or 
on the Western Union side of it ? 

Mr. Daniels. You mean after I got back to it? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Mr. Daniels. Yes ; I got — I went back to it and stood on the Western Union 
side and just propped my foot up on the end of it. 

Mr. Hubert. You were then facing toward Harwood Street? 

Mr. Daniels. Correct. 

Mr. Hubert. More or less? 

Mr. Daniels. Correct. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you move out of that position at all? 

Mr. Daniels. Well, yes; during the time I was there I moved several times, 
but it was all right around in that area there. 

Mr. Hubert. But did you ever go to the Harwood Street side of the Main 
Street ramp? 

Mr. Daniels. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I am going to draw it lightly first so we can get it straight — 
if I draw an area like so— would it be fair to say that you were at all times that 
you are going to testify to later, within that area, except when you left? 

Mr. Daniels. Now, what is this here — is this the bannister here? 

Mr. Hubert. No; this is the measuring line, this doesn't actually show the 
bannister. 

Mr. Daniels. The bannister come right around in here — I was always right in 
this area right in here. 

Mr. Hubert. So, we will draw a circle like that. 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. I am drawing a larger circle in which I am putting the number 
"3", drawing a line out and saying "Area in which Daniels was after he left posi- 
tion '1' and until shooting." Right? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I understand, of course, that you might have moved around 
in that area, but substantially that's what it was? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. And it was on the Western Union side of the little concrete or 
marble ramp that comes out? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And you are telling me that you never did go on the Harwood 
Street side thereafter? 

Mr. Daniels. No. 

Mr. Hubert. How many people were in the area you were in — this area that 
we have marked No. 3 ? 

Mr. Daniels. Well, now, at different times there was as high as four or five — 
some of them would come by and stop and then go on. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

229 



Mr. Daniels. Let me see — about that. 

Mr. Hubert. Even though there were some people on the other side of the 
ramp? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes ; there was three or four on the other side. 

Mr. Hubert. Haw long before Oswald was shot, and I think you did hear 
the shot? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. How long before Oswald was shot did you get to position No. 1? 

Mr. Daniels. I would say 20 or 25 minutes. 

Mr. Hubert. And then, how long were you in position No. 3 before he was 
shot, in the area of No. 3? 

Mr. Daniels. Well, let me see — almost the same, because I had just came over 
here and looked and immediately walked back over here — I would say no time. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you came from your car to position 1 and took 
a quick look and went to the area of No. 3? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And you stayed there until the shot was fired, and you think 
it was about 20 minutes later? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember a car coming up the ramp? 

Mr. Daniels. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you know Lt Rio Pierce? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize him driving the car? 

Mr. Daniels. I don't remember whether he was driving or not, there were 
four officers in there and he was the only one I recognized right off. 

Mr. Hubert. There were four in there you say? 

Mr. Daniels. Two in the front and two in the back. 

Mr. Hubert. Who were the others? 

Mr. Daniels. I didn't really get a good look at them but I knew him, but 
T got a better look at him than I did the rest of them. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he see you — did he show any signs of recognition to you? 

Mr. Daniels. No. 

Mr. Hubert. How long before the shooting did that occur? 

Mr. Daniels. Let's see, I would say 3 or 4 minutes. Now, I have been thor- 
oughly confused on this because down at the police department they tell me 
one thing and it gets my mind all confused. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, what we want is not what somebody else told you, but 
what you, yourself can best remember today. 

Mr. Daniels. Here's what struck me — when I saw the car come out, I was 
thinking — I guess they are fixing to bring Oswald out now, maybe, because 
they are coming out to set up a guard, and they pulled on out and I remember 
watching the car until they got to Harwood and Main, and then I stopped 
looking at it and I didn't pay any attention to where it went or anything, and 
then I kind of looked back down in there from where I was standing near the 
ramp there. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, when the car came out, what did Vaughn do? 
Mr. Daniels. Vaughn walked out to the street to hold up traffic, because 
they were coming out the wrong way. They don't normally come out that 
way and he was going out to hold up traffic and let them get through. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he get beyond the sidewalk so that he was actually out 
in the street? 

Mr. Daniels. I think he walked out in the street. 
Mr. Hubert. How far into the street? 

Mr. Daniels. That would be hard to say but I wasn't paying that much atten- 
tion, but he walked out into the street — he didn't get beyond the center of the 
street, but he walked out in there. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, he left position No. 2 and went to a position 
we will call No. 4 by a circle, and I will just write in there "approximate position 
of Vaughn when Rio Pierce's car drove out," and when I say "aporoximate," 
I am understanding you to say that you are not sure how far into the street 

230 



he went, you know he did not go beyond the center stripe, but you think he 
went 

Mr. Daniels. Almost 

Mr. Hubert. Out over the sidewalk and into the street? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes; because there was some ears parked and he had to get 
beyond them, you see. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, while you were watching the car and Vaughn, I think you 
said you watched the car until it went around the corner. Did you see anybody 
go down the ramp? 

Mr. Daniels. No, no ; I didn't. 

Mr. Hubert. Would it have been possible for somebody to have gonejto your 
left and down the ramp? 

Mr. Daniels. You mean have gotten between me and there? 

Mr. Hubert. And the building — yes. 

Mr. Daniels. Not without me seeing them — I don't hardly think so. 

Mr. Hubert. In any case, they would have to climb over the little marble 

Mr. Daniels. Well, I was not exactly against it at that time. When the car 
came out, I think I stepped back a little bit, you know, and moved out of the way. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, you said that at one point you were standing on the 
Western Union side of that concrete — what do you call it? 

Mr. Daniels. I call it a ramp. 

Mr. Hubert. Concrete ramp — sticking out in the sidewalk? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And you had your foot on it? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes ; because I was in and out of that position, but when the 
car came out, I left that and I stepped back out here a little piece from the 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you left the area 3 and went more towards the 
street? 

Mr. Daniels. I went towards the street and kind of back down the sidewalk 
a little piece. 

Mr. Hubert. You went more towards the Main Street curb and back in 
the direction of the Western Union? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. In any case, you didn't see anybody go to your left? 

Mr. Daniels. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Nor did you see anybody go down the ramp? 

Mr. Daniels. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Then, after Vaughn had done this and the car had gone around, 
what did Vaughn do? 

Mr. Daniels. He came back and took his position up again. 

Mr. Hubert. So that it is fair to say then that the position we have marked on 
the map as position 2 was also the position of Vaughn after the Rio Pierce 
automobile had gone through? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what happened after that? 

Mr. Daniels. Let's see, there is something else that I have been thoroughly 
confused on — I have never been able to picture in my mind just how it hap- 
pened — the guy that I saw go into the basement — I'm not sure it was before 
or after the car came out. I'm not sure — I have run that in my mind a 
thousand times, but I just can't place one before the other. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, in any case, you saw a man go down in the basement? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And at the time you saw him go down in the basement, where 
was Vaughn? 

Mr. Daniels. In position 2. 

Mr. Hubert. In position 2, that is to say, squarely in the middle of the 
ramp? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Did Vaughn look at him? 

Mr. Daniels. I think he did. 

Mr. Hubert. Did Vaughn try to stop him? 

231 

731-228 0—64— VOL XII — —16 



Mr. Daniels. No. 

Mr. Hubert. He went right on through? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know how long that was before the shot was fired? 

Mr. Daniels. 3 or 4 minutes, I guess. 

Mr. Hubert. But what you say is confusing you is as to whether or not that 
was aft&r the Rio Pierce car came out? 

Mr. Daniels. I'm not sure — I can't place one before the other — if I had to 
guess at it, I would say it was before. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you think now that you saw the man go down 
past Va^^hn before the Rio Pierce car came? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Is that correct? 

Mr. Daniels. That's what I'm thinking. 

Mr. Hubert. That's your best recollection today? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, when the Rio Pierce car did drive out and Vaughn left 
his position at No. 2, didn't you as a matter of fact undertake to watch that 
position which was left unguarded? 

Mr. Daniels. I did notice it to see if anybody went down in it so I could 
tell him about it. 

Mr. Hubert. And nobody did? 

Mr. Daniels. No. 

Mr. Hubert. And that does not refresh your memory as to whether or not 
the man you saw go down, went down before or after the Pierce car came 
out? 

Mr. Daniels. Let me see — I still think it was before. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know that now? 

Mr. Daniels. No ; I can't be positive — I don't know it. 

Mr. Hubert. Isn't it a fact that you thought at one time he was the man 
you had seen somehow when you were on the police force? 

Mr. Daniels. Well, yes ; and here's what — when the guy walked down in 
there and Vaughn seemed to look at him, the impression I got was that Vaughn 
knew him and maybe he had let him out and still, I wondered too why he let 
him go down in there, because he wasn't letting anybody else go down in there. 
He looked like one of the news reporters or something, at least that's what I took 
him to be after Vaughn let him go on down. I had seen him before and I 
thought, well, maybe he's one of the news reporters down there at the city 
hall. 

Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you to do this, Mr. Daniels, I have here three docu- 
ments. The first one purports to be a copy of an interview with the State 
police, I think, or the city police, in the course of which you executed an afli- 
davit on November 29, 1963. 

I'm going to mark that for purpose of identification as follows : 

"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5325, deposition of N. J. Daniels," 
and I am signing my name below it. There are two pages. I am marking 
the second page with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. Then there's 
another document which purports to be a report of an interview with the 
FBI Agents Neil Quigley and John Dallman, which interview occurred on De- 
cember 4, 1964. That document has four pages. I am marking in the right 
hand margin on the first page, the following : 

"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5326, Deposition of N. J. Daniels." 
I am writing my name below that and marking the second and third and fourth 
pages of that with my initials in the lower right-hand corner, and finally, there 
is another document which is an FBI report of an interview with Bramblett 
[spelling] B-r-a-m-b-l-e-t-t and Dallman, taken of you on December 18, 1963, 
and I am marking that : 

"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, this is Exhibit 5327, Deposition of N. J. Daniels." 

I am marking my name on it and since the document consists of three pages, 
1 am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third 
pages. 

232 



Now, Mr. Daniels, I would like you to read these three documents with this 
in mind, that after you have had a chance to read them calmly and quietly, 
take all the time you want, I would like you to look at them and be able to com- 
ment upon them. 

For instance, I am going to ask you if they are correct, or what is wrong 
about them, and I want to try to reconcile them, and see if we can get at what 
are really the facts as you recollect the facts today. We are not interested in 
any iwsitions of mind or concepts that you don't really have, but that other 
people might have driven you to, with good motive or not, what we Want now 
is— forgetting about whatever anybody else told you. what your recollection is 
right now — today, without reference to anything else, if you can possibly do it. 

Keep that in mind — forget about suggestions made to you in all good faith 
by other people, and just cut that out of your mind and let's just do that — 
that scene as you saw it, and these words today. 

Mr. Daniexs. All right. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I am going to give you some time to look at it. 

Mr. Daniels. [Examining instruments referred to.] 

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Daniels, you have had an opportunity to read the 
exhibits that I have marked Exhibits Nos. 532.5, 5326, and 5327. Now, have 
you any comment to make with respect to the three exhibits and the state- 
ments made by you in them? 

Mr. Daniels. They s'aid three people was in the car — it seems like I saw 
four — all of them had on these white supervisor caps, leather top hats that 
the supervisors wear down there and it just seemed like I saw four. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, what you are saying in effect now is that the people 
who reported in these exhibits that you said you saw three were wrong, or 
that you were wrong in telling them three, because your present recollection is 
that there were four? 

iMr. Daniels. I think it was four. 

Mr. Hubert. Are there any other corrections that you wish to make? 

Mr. Daniexs. Let's see, I don't remember. 

Mr. Hubert. Any others? 

Mr. Daniels. I don't remember — corrections. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, it is my duty to call your attention to Exhibit 5325, which 
is the affidavit that you made on November 29. 

Mr. Daniels. November 29? What I said? 

Mr. Hubert. And in Exhibit 5327, which is the reiwrt of an interview by 
the agents of the FBI on December 18, you seem to quite clearly state that the 
man you saw walk down the ramp past Vaughn, did so after the car had 
passed ? 

Mr. Daniels. Well, I said I think I have changed my mind now — I believe 
it was after the car had gone out when I saw him. 

Mr. Hubert. Let me get it straight — what is your present impression now? 

Mr. Daniels. That's it^ — tlie way I fix it in my mind — the way I arrive at that 
conclusion is that when the shot rang out, my first thought was the guy 
that just walked down in there did that, so timing that way it would have to 
be after that car came out, becau.se that car had time to go quite a ways, I 
think. 

Mr. Hubert. What you are saying then is that the statements that are con- 
tained in Exhibits 5325 and 5327 you now believe to be correct? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. And the statement you made in your deposition earlier today 
that you could not be sure whether that man went in before or after was 
incorrect? I think you even went further, if my memory serves me right, and 
said that your best recollection was that the man had gone down past Vaughn 
before the car came out, isn't that what you said earlier in your deposition? 

Mr. DANiEa^s. Yes ; until I refreshed myself on it and when I read that I got a 
better picture in my mind. 

Mr. Hubert. So that now your testimony is that you think that the man 
you saw go by — past Vaughn, did so after the car had gone out, that is to say, 
after Vaughn had left his i)osition at (2), gone out into the street to the ap- 
proximate position of (4) and come back again to his position at (2)? 

233 



Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Htjbert. And then it was at that time or shortly thereafter that the man 
went straight by Vaughn? 

Mr. Daniels. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. But that is your present best recollection? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, you believe that the thing that has made you change your 
mind is that when you read these statements — it refreshes your memory? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Are you quite sure it refreshes your memory or, are you wor- 
ried about contradicting yourself? 

Mr. Daniels. No ; I'm not worried about contradicting myself, I'm just try- 
ing to be sure and tell the truth. 

Mr. Hubert. Right — I want to assure you that it doesn't matter to us whether 
you contradict yourself or not. 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. There is no suggestion made to you here that if you made a 
mistake before that any kind of i)enalty or punishment or prosecution will 
follow, because that isn't so, unless you made a wilful misstatement, but I'm not 
going into that now. What I want to know now is what really happened. Now, 
Mr. Daniels, that's why I asked you before to try to put everything out of 
your mind. 

Mr. Daniels. That's the trouble with this — it has been out of my mind and 
I am trying to get it back in there. 

Mr. Hubert. You feel now, considering all the statements you made originally 
are the truthful ones? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Are there any other corrections or additions or deletions that 
you would like to make as to the exhibits that have been identified as exhibits 
as numbers 5325, 5326, and 5327? 

Mr. Daniels. I can't think of any. 

Mr. Hubert. You think it can be fairly said that anyone who would read 
the three exhibits 5325, 5326, and 5327 and who would read the transcript of 
your deposition at a later time and who would have the advantage of being 
able to follow your deposition on this chart that has been marked as Daniel's 
Exhibit 5324, that such a person reading all those documents would have all 
of the truth, so far as you know it? 

Mr. Daniels. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. And we would have all that you do know ? 

Mr. Daniels. That's absolutely right — that's right, I believe so. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, is there anything else, have you anything else to 
say? 

Mr. Daniels. No ; I can't think of anything else. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, thank you very much. I am glad you came by. 

Mr. Daniels. All right, thank you. 



TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. HARRISON 

The testimony of William J. Harrison was taken at 3 :45 p.m., on March 25, 
1064, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and 
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the 
President's Commission. Mr. William J. Harrison was accompanied by his 
counsel, Ted P. MacMaster. 

Mr. Griffin. I was looking through here to see if I could get you a copy 
of our rules. Let me state for the record. Correct me if I get the names wrong. 
We have here Officer W. J. Harrison of the Dallas Police Department and Mr. 
MacMaster. 

234 



Mr. MacMasteb. Ted P. MaeMaster [spelling] M-a-c-M-a-s-t-e-r, assistant 
city attorney of the city of Dallas. 

Mr. Griffin. I wanted to provide for you, before we even get into the formal 
part of it a copy of the rules, and I think this is a complete copy, Mr. MaeMaster, 
and, if you like, let me hand them to you. 

Mr. MacMaster. That is fine. Thank you. 

Mr. Griffin. And let me state, talk a little bit about this, and then maybe, 
if you feel that you would like to stop and take a look at it a little longer, 
I would be happy to do that. I will state for the record that my name is Burt 
Grifl5n and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's ofiice 
of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and 
this Commission has been set up pursuant to an Executive Order 11130 by 
President Johnson issued November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint 
resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to this Executive order and these 
resolutions, there have been a set of rules and a procedure prescribed by the 
Commission, and I believe, Mr. MaclNIaster, that what I have just handed you is 
a copy, and I believe a complete copy, of the rules, but if you would like for me to 
check and make sure that is everything, I will check with one of my colleagues. 
Would 

Mr. MacMaster. Yes ; I would appreciate that. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you like me to? 

Mr. MacMaster. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. I will have to take it. 

(Recess.) 

Mr. Griffin. For the record, I have checked with my colleague, Mr. Leon 
Hubert, and he confirms my statement to you that that is a complete copy of 
the rules of the Commission. 

Mr. MacMaster. I would like to state for the record. Officer William J. Har- 
rison, a member of the police department of the city of Dallas, Tex., is making a 
voluntary appearance here today and is here for the purpose of voluntarily as- 
sisting, in every way possible, in this investigation. 

Mr. Griffin. I certainly appreciate that, and let me take some time here to 
explain to you what is involved here. This Commission was set up under this 
resolution and this Executive order, which I have given you a copy of, for the 
purpose of investigating, evaluating, reporting back to President Johnson upon 
the facts surrounding the assassination of the President and the killing of Lee 
Harvey Oswald. Now, we have asked Mr. Harrison to come here today to talk 
with him in particular about the facts that are attendant to the killing of Oswald. 
We don't want to preclude any information that you may have that falls any- 
where within the scope of the Commission, so if there is anything, why I would 
like you on your own to bring it up and we want very much to hear it. 

Let me go back and explain where we are procedurally. Officer Harri.son is 
appearing here by virtue of a letter, which is sent by the General Counsel of 
the Commission to Chief Curry, and the General Counsel, under these resolutions, 
has the right to determine who shall be deposed and also has the authority to 
authorize individual members of his staff to take individual depositions, and I 
have been authorized, pursuant to that letter to Mr. Curry, to take Mr. Har- 
rison's deposition. Now, the witness is entitled to 8 days' written notice before 
he testifies before the Commission, and some of the witnesses have asked for it, 
others of them haven't. 

Mr. MacMaster. You don't have any reason for that? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. MacMaster. He wants to waive that 3-day notice. 

Mr. Harrison. Just waive it. 

Mr. Grifftn. And, also, they have a right to counsel before the Commission. 
Many of the witnesses have come before the Commission, and Mr. Harrison is 
here with Mr. MacMaster, who is his attorney. Do you have any questions you 
want to ask me before I swear the witness in? 

Mr. MacMaster. No ; not that I know of at this point. 

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Harrison, do you have any questions that you would like to 
ask me? 

235 



Mr. Harrison. Well, I would like to know if I understand. You have the re- 
ports that we made to the FBI? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Harrison. And also the ones that we made to our chief? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, we do. 

Mr. Harrison. Do we get to read those? 

Mr. Griffin. Would you like to see a coiiy of them? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes ; I haven't seen them. 

Mr. MacMastes. You want them to refresh your memory? 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Let me get it out of here. Would you like to take 
time and go out? 

Mr. MacMaster. Do you want to take a little time? 

Mr. Griffin. Why don't you look it over? You can step out of the room. 
Maybe I can find another office for you, too. 

(Recess.) 

Mr. Griffin. I might ask you again if you have any other questions that I can 
answer before I swear you in? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know of anything. This is off of the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Griffin. You want to raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that 
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth? 

Mr. Harrison. I do. 

Mr. Griffin. Will you state your name, please? 

Mr. Harrison. William J. Harrison. 

Mr. Griffin. When were you born, Mr. Harrison? 

Mr. Harrison. August 28, 1924. 

Mr. Griffin. Where do you live now? 

Mr. Harrison. At 9223 Donnybrook. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that in Dallas? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, Dallas. 

Mr. Griffin. Are you employed with the Dallas Police Department. 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been with the Dallas department? 

Mr. Harrison. Past 16 years. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what particular bureau or subdivision are you attached 
to at present? 

Mr. Harrison. I am a patrolman assigned to the juvenile bureau of the CID. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you working in that capacity or were you a member of the 
department in that capacity on November 22, 23, and 24? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, I am going to ask you some questions generally about 
events, things have to do with events before the 24th, and I am not going 
to go into as much detail as the events of the 24th, but I do want to ask you 
where you were at the time that you heard that the President was shot. 

Mr. Harrison. Where I was at the time that I heard that the President was 
shot? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Harrison. I was on duty at the market hall. I was standing at the — 
I guess it would be the west end of the President's table. 

Mr. Griffin. That is the Trade Mart? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Dallas Trade Mart? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. sir : market. 

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain there after you heard that the Presi- 
dent was shot? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, it was approximately an hour. 

Mr. Griffin. And then where did you go? 

Mr. Harrison. Come back to the city hall. 

Mr. Griffin. The Police Department Building or the city hall portion of it? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, to the juvenile bureau. 

286 



Mr. Griffin. And did you go up to the juvenile bureau? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what did you do when you got back to the juvenile bureau? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I don't recall. Stayed around the oflBce there until time 
to go home. 

Mr. Griffin. What time would you estimate that you got back to the police 
department? 

Mr. Harrison. It was around 1 :30 or 2. 

Mr. Griffin. And what time did you go off duty that day? 

Mr. Harrison. Four. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you have occasion to go out of the building between 
the time that you returned and the time that you went off duty? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall. I don't think I ever went out of the building. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you working on any particular cases that you recall? 

Mr. Harrison. No, no ; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, during the period that you were there prior to 4 o'clock, 
did you see anybody on the third floor or elsewhere in the building who you 
knew was not a police officer or a member of the press or somebody who was 
up on some sort of official business with the police department, did you recog- 
nize anybody that you knew? 

Mr. Harrison. No, no. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Jack Ruby there at anytime prior to 4 o'clock Friday 
afternoon? 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. You do recognize Ruby by sight, do you not? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know Jack personally? 

Mr. Harrison. I knew him as a businessman as well by sight, and I have 
known him for 12 years, I guess, as a businessman. 

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to meet Jack? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I used to go into his place. I was a motorcycle officer, 
and we would go into these different places just checking, and he was running 
the Silver Spur, I think was the name of it. 

Mr. Griffin. What bureau were you assigned to at that time? 

Mr. Harrison. I was in the traffic bureau. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that motorcycle patrol? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes ; motorcycle patrol. 

Mr. Griffin. Was that downtown only? 

Mr. Harrison. No. We rode all over the city. 

Mr. Griffin. What particular business did you have in there? 

Mr. Harrison. Oh, we went in, we went into several places, maybe to get a 
cold drink, checking maybe to see if there was some drunks in there, just regular, 
routine checks more or less. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you ever see him on a social basis? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see him in any capacity other than as a police 
officer? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Have you in the last 12 years had any part-time jobs while you 
were with the police department? 

Mr. Harrison. Any part-time jobs while I — I didn't understand that. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes ; while you were a member of the police department, did 
you have any part-time jobs? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes ; I have had part-time jobs. 

Mr. Griffin. In connection with any of this part-time work, have you ever 
worked with Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. What kind of part-time jobs have you had? 

Mr. Harrison. Around parade of homes, working traffic around these parades 
of home, and on special occasions, like where they have big traffic problems, and 
in, well, you might say, jewelry stores, department stores, working in both. 

237 



Mr. Griffin. You don't have any special trade like carpenter, bricklayer or 
anything like that? 

Mr. Harbison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what did you do when you left the police department at 4 
o'clock on Friday? 

Mr. Harbison. I drove home, went home. 

Mr. Griffin. And where were you the remainder of the evening? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I don't recall at all. but I believe I was at my home. I 
don't think I had left the house. 

Mr. Griffin. Is there something that makes you think you might have been 
some place else? 

Mr. Harrison. No. I just don't remember back that — if I went anywhere or 
not. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what shift did you work on Saturday? 

Mr. Harrison. 8 to 4. 

Mr. Griffin. And did you report for duty at the juvenile 

Mr. Harrison. Bureau. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you in the building all day on Saturday? 

Mr. Harrison. On a Saturday? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Harbison. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where you worked out of the building on Saturday? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I don't recall. It was just a normal, routine day, as far as 
our work was concerned, handling the juvenile prisoners and checking those 
beeves that we had assigned to us. 

Mr. Griffin. Prior to the time that you went on duty on Saturday, did you 
receive any telephone calls or other communications from Jack Ruby or any- 
body who was an associate of Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Harbison. No. 

Mr. Gbiffin. You left the police department about 4 p.m. on Saturday? 

Mr. Habbison. On Saturday? 

Mr. Gbiffin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Habbison. Yes, sir. No ; I beg your pardon. Yes ; it was about 4 o'clock 
on Saturday afternoon. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Now, at the time that yoa left the police department, had you 
heard anything about the movement of Lee Oswald, proposed movement of Lee 
Oswald? 

Mr. Harrison. No, no ; I hadn't. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what did you do Saturday after you left work? 

Mr. Harbison. I went home. 

Mr. Gbiffin. And did you spend Saturday night at home? 

Mr. Habbison. Spend Saturday night at home ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Gbiffin. What time did you report for work on Sunday? 

Mr. Habbison. 8 o'clock. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Now, anytime on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Habbison. No, sir. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Anywhere? 

Mr. Habbison. No, sir. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Did you see any of his friends or associates anyplace? 

Mr. Habbison. I don't know any of his friends or associates. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Are you acquainted with a fellow by the name of George Senator? 

Mr. Habbison. No, sir. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Now, during the last year, the year prior to the time that the 
President was shot, how often did you have occasion to visit Ruby's place? 

Mr. Habbison. I believe that I went in his place one time within the last year. 
Mr. Griffin. When was that? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't — I don't recall. A group of us. I say a group of us. 
Occasionally, we will hear about some juvenile being in a place like that, and 
occasionally we will check to see if there are any down there, and, if I recall, I 
believe OflBcer Cutchshaw and myself went down to the Carousel Club one time. 
Mr. Griffin. In the course of your duties, did you ever find that Jack Ruby 
provided any useful information to the police department? 

238 



Mr. Harrison. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you or any of the ofl3cer.s ttiat you know in tlie police depart- 
ment attempt ever to obtain information out of Jack Ruby with respect to your 
duties? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I didn't. I don't know if any of the other oflScers did or 
not. 

Mr. Griffin. There wasn't ever any occasion when you tried to get any assist- 
ance or information from him? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you arrived for work on Saturday — Sunday, rather — 
you say you report at 8 o'clock ? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that the normal reporting time in your bureau? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember where you parked your car? 

Mr. Harrison. I parked it over by the garage on Young Street, and actually, 
well, it was on a parking lot there next to the garage. 

Mr. Griffin. Young and 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. And what intersection? 

Mr. Harrison. Young and Pearl Expressway. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you come into the building with any of youlr fellow oflScers? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember what entrance you came into the building 
through? 

Mr. Harrison. I drove into the basement. 

Mr. Griffin. I am talking about the police department building. 

Mr. Harrison. I drove into the basement of the city hall there. 

Mr. Griffin. Oh, I thought you parked your car there. 

Mr. Harrison. I did. I parked my personal ear on the parking lot across from 
the police garage on Young and Pearl. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. 

Mr. Harrison. I picked up a city car at the garage, drove to the basement of 
the city hall, where I parked it. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. What car number was it? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall. Don't have any idea. 

Mr. Griffin. Is there any sort of record that is maintained on what cars you 
drive? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, we fill out a slip on each car we drive every day, 

Mr. Griffin. And did you fill out a slip on that car? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, where do you get the keys to one of those cars that is over 
there? 

Mr. Harrison. They are left in the car, they are in the cars. 

Mr. Griffin. And are they kept in a locked garage, is that it? 

Mr. Harrison. No; it is a two-story parking affair, enclosed in a fence up 
to, you know 

Mr. Griffin. And there is a guard on the fence? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; there is no guard. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, was there any particular reason for taking that car that 
day? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, we always park our personal car and pick up our city car 
and drive over close to the city hall there. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. And it is part of your responsibility, you ordinarily pick 
up a car? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you have a particular car assigned to you? 

Mr. Harrison. No, no. We have a pool system. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you drive back with anybody to the police department? 

Mr. Harbison. No ; I was alone that day. 

239 



Mr. Griffin. I take it that you parked the car in the garage of the municipal 
building and walked by the jail oflSce? 

Mr. Harrison. To the elevator. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. When you arrived, were there any newspaper people down 
in the basement? 

Mr. Harrison. In the basement? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir ; not that I recall. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall whether there were any TV cameras set up when 
you arrived that day in the basement? 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. When you came in, I take it that you came in down the Main 
Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Was there a guard on the Main Street ramp at the time that 
you came? 

Mr. Harrison. Not at that time. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when you got up to the third floor? Is that 
right? 

Mr. Harrison. I went to the juvenile bureau. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you go to the locker room first? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. You went right up to the juvenile bureau? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. On the third floor? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who was there in the juvenile bureau when you 
got in? 

Mr. Harrison. No. Goolsby was working the desk and Mrs. McLine was 
there and Miller and Lowery, I believe Cutchshaw. 

Mr. Griffin. Anybody else that you recall? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Captain Martin there? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall seeing him when I first come in. 

Mr. Griffin. When you arrived, what did you do as soon as you arrived up 
there in the juvenile bureau? 

Mr. Harrison. We checked to see what we had assigned to us. They assign 
the beeves of a morning when we first come in and put a copy of it in our 
drawer, and we always check the first thing to see if we have any messages or 
if ther'e has been anything assigned to us to work on. 

Mr. Griffin. And did you have anything assigned to you at that time to 
work on? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what you did after you checked your assignments? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, Miller and I went to eat breakfast. I don't know the 
exact time. 

Mr. Griffin. How long would you estimate that was after you arrived? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't have any idea. Approximately 20 or 30 minutes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you talk with anybody concerning what was going on 
in the homicide oflice or what was going on in connection with Lee Oswald when 
you came in? 

Mr. Harrison. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. Griffin. When you come into the juvenile bureau, did you talk to any of 
the people in connection with what was happening with Lee Oswald? 

Mr. Harrison. Not that I recall. I may have asked if he was still up there. 
I don't recall. 

Mr. Griffin. At the time that — excuse me. 

Mr. MacMaster, this is Mr. Hubert of our oflice. Mr. MacMaster is assistant 
city attorney. This is Mr. Harrison, Mr. Hubert. 

Mr. Harrison. Hello. Glad to see you, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. At the time that you arrived in the building, had you heard 

240 



anything in connection with the movement of I^ee Harvey Oswald to the county 
jail? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I hadn't. 

Mr. Griffin. Had you heard anything about whether he was going to be 
moved at all that day? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, the — they were talking, the pressmen were talking about 
it out in the hall as we come by. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you hear the press people say? 

Mr. Harrison. They said he would be moved sometime that morning, and I 
couldn't tell you who the pressmen were or anything. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with Officer Miller about this when you got in? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with any of the officers about this? 

Mr. Harrison. When Captain Martin came in, I believe we had gone to get 
breakfast, and when we got back, they told us to stay around the bureau there. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Now, when you went out to get breakfast, where did 
you have breakfast? 

Mr. Harrison. At the Deluxe Diner there at the 1900 block of Commerce. 

Mr. Griffin. Whose suggestion was it to go out for br'eakfast? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know. Mine or Miller's one. I don't remember. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you ask anybody else to go with you? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall. 

Mr. Griffin. It was just you and Miller that went to the Deluxe Diner? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see anybody at the Deluxe Diner that you knew? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know the people who operate the diner or the wait- 
resses? 

Mr. Harrison. No. I know some of them that work over there, but I don't 
recall who was working that day. 

Mr. Griffin. And do you visit there often enough so that they know you? 

Mr. Harrison. Some of the employees do. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, before you left the juvenile bureau, who did you talk 
with before going? You didn't ask anybody to come with you. Did you tell 
anybody that you were going out? 

Mr. Harrison. We told the deskman, Goolsby. 

Mr. Griffin. Goolsby? 

Mr. Harrison. We were going over to get a cup of coffee. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Now, how long did you remain at the Deluxe Diner? 

Mr. Harrison. I would say around 30 minutes. 

Mr. Griffin. Did anything happen over there? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk about the movement of Lee Oswald at all? 

Mr. Harrison. No. We didn't know anything about It then. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what you talked about over there? 

Mr. Harrison. I sure don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Speculation about whether they were going to get a story out of 
him, a confession, or anything like that? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how did you happen to decide to leave the diner? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, we were through eating and went back over to the city 
hall there to the bureau. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember if you talked with anybody while you were 
over at the Deluxe Diner? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall whether you talked with any — had any telephone 
calls when you were there? 

Mr. Harrison. I believe I did. 

Mr. Griffin. Okay. 

Mr. Harrison. I believe I did have a phone call. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. What do you remember about the phone call? 

Mr. Harrison. I believe it was Goolsby. He called us and told us not to leave 

241 



the city hall, that was the captain's order, Captain Martin's order. He told us 
to come on back to the bureau when we got through eating. 

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. 

Mr. Harrison. I recall that. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, when you got back to the bureau, did you re- 
port back in to Goolsby? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, he saw us come in. We didn't have to. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Captain Martin when you got back? 

Mr. Harrison. I believe he was there when we got back in. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to anybody when you got back about the proposed 
movement of Oswald? 

Mr. Harrison. No. Of course, it may have been discussed there as to what 
time it would be. I don't recall who was talking or what was said, but I know 
we were told to stand by the bureau there by Captain Martin. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when did Martin tell you this? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, actually, on this phone call Goolsby made over there, he 
told us that the captain had told us to stand by there in the bureau. 

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. 

Mr. Harrison. When we got back up there. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did Martin then tell you the same thing when you got up? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall whether he did or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how long was it between the time that you got this call 
from Goolsby and you actually went down to the basement in connection with 
the movement of Lee Oswald? 

Mr. Harrison. I would say about 2 hours. 

Mr. Griffin. When you came back from the diner, how did you come back 
into the building? 

Mr. Harrison. Came across to Harwood Street and down to the Harwood 
Street entrance to the city hall. 

Mr. Griffin. And when you went out, did you go out that way or did you 
go out by the Commerce Street entrance? 

Mr. Harrison. Went that way. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you see anybody around the police building at that time 
whom you recognized that wasn't either a police officer or a newspaperman? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir ; when we came back, there was a man by the name 
of Johnny Miller, who owns a trailer house sales on West Davis. It is right 
across from Sivils parking lot there. It is a trailer sales company. He was 
standing in the door of this television company truck talking, and he turned 
around and shook hands with me and spoke to me, and I went on in the building. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember what he said to you? 

Mr. Harrison. He just spoke to me and shook hands with me. said he was 
glad to see me, and that is the extent of it. 

Mr. Griffin. Does Miller know Ruby, to your knowledge? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know. I don't know that, whether he knows him 
or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Anything that would lead you to think that he might? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I have known Miller just about the same length of time 
that I have known Ruby, but I don't know whether he even knew Ruby or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Is Miller a close, personal friend of yours? 

Mr. Harrison. No, no ; just an acquaintance. Oh, I have stopped out there 
at his place and sat there and talked to him and have gone and had coffee with 
him, but just an acquaintance, not a personal friend. 

Mr. Griffin. Is this a TV sales and repair shop that he runs? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; a house trailer. 

Mr. Griffin. I am sorry. House trailer. House trailer. Okay. Now, do 
you remember what you did in those roughly 2 hours between the time you 
got back up to the juvenile bureau and the time that you went down to the 
basement? 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir ; I don't recall, except sitting up there answering the 
phone and just checking on beeves that I had had assigned to me. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you all keeping your eye out for when Oswald would be 
moved? 

242 



Mr. Harrison. Well, we knew that we would be told, that someone would 
come and get us. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any idea of what would be the occasion for moving 
Oswald, what would be done before Oswald would be moved? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you aware that the homicide people were questioning 
Oswald at that time? 

Mr. Harrison. We didn't know they were. We assumed that they were. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there reporters running in and out of the office? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Were they talking about the events that were going on? 

Mr. Harrison. They were mostly using the phone. They weren't talking to 
us. They were mostly calling their home oflSce. 

Mr. Griffin. They were using the phone in your oflBce? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. You were able to hear what they were saying over the telephone? 

Mr. Harrison. I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying. There 
were three of us in there that morning. All we told them was to leave us three 
lines open because we were pretty busy ourselves. 

Mr. Griffin. What was the next thing you recall in connection with the move- 
ment of Lee Oswald? 

Mr. Harrison. About, I would say, 3 or 4 or 5 minutes to 11. I went down 
to the subbasement to get me some cigars, and as I come back up out of the 
subbasement, well, then the officers out of our bureau were going across from 
the elevator to the — to there in front of the jail office. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, there are two basements, as I understand it, in the Police 
and Courts Building. One is the basement level that the garage is on and the 
jail office and the records room? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. And then there is a subbasement? 

Mr. Harrison. Locker room. 

Mr. Griffin. Locker room down below that. Now, how did you get down 
from the third floor into the subbasement? Does the elevator go all of the 
way down? 

Mr. Harrison. No, no ; it stops at the floor where the jail office is. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. When you get out of the jail office, where do you 
have to go? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, actually to the south end. 

Mr. Griffin. You walk down to the hallway and then you open a door? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; you go down a stairway. 

Mr. Griffin. Go down a stairway? 

Mr. Harrison. Into the subbasement. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, there is, is there not, a doorway, as you walk from Com- 
merce Street down the steps to go to the door that entered into the building 
and through the hallway that you had walked down? Do you follow me? 

Mr. Harrison. No, no; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. Let's suppose that you walked from the record room to the sub- 
basement by way of the hallway that leads out towards Commerce Street. 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, that hallway has a door that goes out of the building, 
does it not? 

Mr. Harrison. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. And when you open that door and go out of the building, there 
are two other doors, right? 

Mr. Harrison. No, no. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, isn't there a door on your — on your left as you face Com- 
merce Street, isn't there a door on your left that goes into the engine room? 

Mr. Harrison. Actually, I have never — I believe there is a door there. It is 
underneath where the stairway goes up. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, there is a door straight ahead where the stairway goes up? 
In other words, as you walk out of the door from the building to leave the 

243 



building and you step out of there, there Is another door right in front of you 
right under this stairs 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Isn't there? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, that door leads down to the subbasement, doesn't it? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I have never been down that way. I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. From the assembly room, in the assembly room, 
where is this cigar dispensing machine? 

Mr. Harrison. They are not in the assembly room. 

Mr. Griffin. Not in the assembly room, in the locker room. 

Mr. Harrison. In the locker room. 

Mr. Griffin. Where is it located? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know how to describe it to you. The machine is about, 
I guess, 18 foot from the door — from the stairway. 

Mr. Griffin. At the far south end? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; it is kind of west of the stairway. 

Mr. Griffin. West of the stairway, but it is on the south side of the room, it 
is on the side closest to Commerce Street? 

Mr. Harrisc '. No; that is where all of the locker rooms are, lockers are. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Harrison. Now, there is a door that separates the locker room from the 
area where the cold drinks and where the 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Harrison. Where the cold drinks and the cigar machine and the cigarette 
machines are, there is a door that separates that. 

Mr. Griffin. We are all talking about the same thing here. I am not sure 
that Mr. MacMaster knows what we are talking about here. Would you draw 
Main Street or draw Commerce Street up on one end, which is convenient to 
you, and draw Harwood, and why don't you label them, write "Main," "Com- 
merce," and "Harwood" in the appropriate spots? All right. Where is the 
doorway that you entered the locker room by, where would that be? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, now, this being the stair down. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Harrison. There is no door here. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Harrison. There is a wall approximately in this position and there is a 
double door here. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Harrison. All right. There is a big post here. It has a telephone on it, 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Harrison. Cigar machine sits right here beside of this post. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Harrison. And the Dr. Pepper and coke machines are all up and down 
this right side. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. What is in this area to the south of the doorway? 

Mr. Harrison. This? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Harrison. Lockers. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you draw that in there, write that in there? Write 
"Locker Room" or something. Did you have a locker in there? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Where was your locker located, approximately? 

Mr. Harrison. Down here, however it hadn't been used in over 214 or 3 years. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see anybody down here when you went down there to get 
the cigars? 

Mr. Harrison. There was no one down there when I went down there. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any occasion to go into the locker room ? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what did you do after you got the cigars? 

Mr. Harrison. Went back upstairs. 

244 



Mr. Griffin. And did you see anybody on the way up or down whom you 
recognized as not being a newspaperman or a police oflScer. 

Mr. Harrison. Well, at that time, there was no one in that immediate area. 
The oflBcers were going across from the elevator to the jail oflSce, the oflBcers 
out of the juvenile bureau. 

Mr. Griffin. So when you came up, you found the oflBcers had left? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. I mean had left the juvenile bureau, right? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, they were leaving the elevator coming across. 

Mr. Griffin. Had you met them in the basement? 

Mr. Harrison. Met them in the basement, yes. 

Mr. Griffin. And who did you see there at that time? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, there was Miller, Lowery and Cutchshaw, Goolsby, and I 
believe that was all out of our bureau. 

Mr. Griffin. And what did you do when you saw them? 

Mr. Harrison. One of them told me to come on. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember which one that was? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall who it was. 

Mr. Griffin. And where did you go with them? * 

Mr. Harrison. We stood in front of the jail oflSce. 

Mr. Griffin. And what happened as you waited around there? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, we were waiting around to get — find out where they were 
going to put us. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you finally get some instructions from somebody? 

Mr. Harrison. I believe it was Captain Jones that come in and told us that — 
to come on out into the area there in the driveway, and he told us that he 
wanted all of the newsmen on the east side of the drive and that he wanted 
nothing but officers over in this corridor here and where the — well, on the west 
wall, in other words. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, let's go off of the record here. I want to find out. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to mark this diagram that you have drawn here 
Harrison Exhibit 5027, and I am going to ask you. Officer Harrison, if you will 
just put in here "coke machine" or whatever these things are, "cigar machine." 

Mr. Harrison. This is a post here. 

Mr. Griffin. A post. A support post. All right. Why don't you mark that 
post, then? And then mark the area where the — okay. Now, and that is 
"door." Okay. Now, would you sign that any place where you can get your 
signature and then date it? 

( Recess. ) 

Mr. Griffin. We were at the point where you had come into the basement area 
and seen the people coming down from the juvenile bureau. Before you went 
down there, had you left word that you would be down in the locker room? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes ; I told Goodsby that I was going down and get me some 
cigars. 

Mr. Griffin. Did there come a time when you were down in the basement 
that somebody gave you some instructions as to what was to be done? 

Mr. Harrison. Captain Jones, I believe it was. had come out and told us to 
go out into the ramp area, the garage, and to set — to put these photographers and 
newspeople on the east side of the driveway. 

Mr. Griffin. Will you take this map, diagram or chart (Harrison Exhibit 
5028) which is — actually is a reduction of a chart that the Dallas Police Depart- 
ment made for us some time ago and purports to represent the basement area? 
You can see the jail office here? 

Mr. Harrison. Uh-huh. 

Mr. Griffin. And you can see Commerce Street over here and Main Street 
here and the garage area here and the Main Street ramp going down and the 
Commerce Street ramp going up, and this shows a solid wall along Commerce 
Street here. Actually, this is the basement wall. The basement extends out 
under the sidewalk, but if you were looking at this at ground level, you would 
see this broken line is the wall of the building. Now, directing your attention to 
the part that shows the exit from the jail office and the ramps and the entrance 

245 



into the garage, can you mark on there what Captain Jones — how Captain 
Jones indicated that the newspeople were to be displaced by the officers? 

Mr. Harbison. He wanted them across along here on this side. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you want to put a series of "X's" or something along there 
to show ? 

Mr. Harrison. You want to put "news"? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes; you might put some mark on there. This would be news 
media, newspeople, also? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Why don't you mark that "news," also? Now, were there to be 
any newspaper people from the northern side of the entrance to the garage on 
up toward the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. There were some. 

Mr. Griffin. But what instructions did he give in that regard? 

Mr. Harrison. He didn't. He just stated that he wanted them on the east 
side of the ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did he say anything with respect to whether he wanted 
them on the east side or the west side of the railing? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; he didn't specify that. 

Mr. Griffin. Was it your understanding that there were to be no news media 
in this area other than the TV people? 

Mr. Harrison. In this area right here. 

Mr. Griffin. What about in the area to the north of where you have placed 
the "X's"? Was it your understanding that 

Mr. Harrison. There were floodlights standing here. 

Mr. Griffin. Where you are placing circles on the map. Now, did he give — 
go ahead. 

Mr. Harrison. There were cameras here. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did he give instructions as to where the police oflBcers were 
to stand? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Did he give any instructions with respect to forming any lines 
of police ofiicers or anything like that? 

Mr. Harrison. I didn't hear it. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how long was this before Lee Oswald was brought down 
that these instructions were given? 

Mr. Harrison. This was approximately, oh, maybe 10 or 11 minutes before. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do in that 10 or 11 minutes? 

Mr. Harrison. I took up a position in the ramp area here and assisted with 
getting the newsmen on the east side of the ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you stay in the same general area ? 

Mr. Harrison. I did ; yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Can you indicate on the map by a circle and an "X" where was 
it you were, generally? 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Griffin. Actually, Mr. MacMaster, if you feel like you would like to 
recess this at some particular hour, let me know. 

Mr. MacMaster. Let me suggest this. Do yon have any idea how long this 
interrogation will last? 

Mr. Griffin. I wouldn't expect it to go more than 45 minutes. 

Mr. MacMaster. More? 

Mr. Griffin. No ; I don't think it will go any longer than that, however 

Mr. MacMaster. What is your — would you just rather stay and finish? 

Mr. Harrison. I would rather stay and finish. 

Mr. MacMaster. All right. I wonder if I may make my one phone call here on 
the phone? 

Mr. Griffin. Sure. 

Mr. Harrison. May I ask you something here? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. Let's wait until he finishes. 

Mr. MacMaster. Well, let's go ahead. My 13-year-old daughter is on the 
phone, so that is a career itself trying to get home. I am not going to worry 
about it. 

246 



Mr. Griffin. Feel free at any time to interrupt me. Go ahead. You wanted 
to ask me. 

Mr. Habkison. I made these two things setting too far away. Actually, this 
camera was setting in this first aisle, one of them was. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. 

Mr. Harrison. The cameras were right in line here. 

Mr. Griffin. And you were making an effort to steer these news people over 
into this area and away from the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do .you recall when Sam Pierce's car drove out? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir; I do. I let the — I had to move the people back out 
of the way. There was actually two cars went out. 

Mr. Griffin. There were two cars? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, tell me about that, 

Mr. Harrison. Well, there was a patrolman went out that direction in a 
squad car. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know who that was? 

Mr. Harrison. I believe it was Mr. O'Dell. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, how long before or after Pierce's car did he go out? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, now, it was some 3 or 4 or 5 minutes, something like 
that, I am sure. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, let's focus on Mr. O'Dell's car, then. Was 
anybody in the car with him? 

Mr. Harrison. Not that I recall. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you know what — for what purpose he went out? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Griffin. What division is he assigned to? 

Mr. Harrison. Radio patrol. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were you aware, while you were down in the basement, 
of anybody being dispatched to change the positioning of the people along the 
street who were supposed to block off Elm Street? 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any knowledge at all of how the route was to go, 
how Oswald was to be conveyed? 

Mr. Harpuson. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever have any knowledge as to what was to be used 
to convey him? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, when we got down there, they were bringing this 
armored car, backing the armored car, into the south end or Commerce Street 
side of the ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall or would you have been in a position to see 
whether the armored car was actually in the ramp when you arrived on the 
scene? 

Mr. Harrison. They were backing it in at the time that we came out into 
the driveway. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. Were you able to tell whether it would appear that it 
had just got to the ramp or how long it had been there? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Where did O'Dell get his car from ? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know that. The first time I noticed it was when 
he came up here through the newsmen. I got them to move back where he 
could get by, and then there was a couple of men standing up here talking. I 
believe it was one of the — one of the supervisors talking to a reserve captain, 
who was standing there. I believe it was Arnett. I am not sure. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, there were — at the time that O'Dell's car went out, there 
were police oflScers in the direction of the Main Street ramp, closer to Main 
Street than you were? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you place on there all of the — all right. Let me strike 
that. Go ahead. Tell me what you want to say. 

247 

731-228 0—64— vol. XII 17 



Mr. Harrison. At the time that O'Dell's car came out, I was back here, in this 
position here, to help get these men out of the way of the car, and then 
it was shortly after that that I took up this position here. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. All right. Now, at the time that O'Dell's car came out — 
well, let's strike this. Prior to the time that O'Dell's car came out, were you 
ever in this area here? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes ; I was moving from this area around to here. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Harrison. In other words, keeping 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Maybe we can do this sort of like a football dia- 
gram. Why don't you put your initials right there? And down here why 
don't you draw a circle and an "X" and just say, "Initial placernent of Harri- 
son"? Now, why don't you draw an arrow to the general direction of where 
yo'u were and put a "1" and draw a circle around that, and then down in the 
comer, put a "1" and a circle and put, "Position when O'Dell's car started to 
move," if that is correct? Now, when O'Dell's car moved, were there police of- 
ficers between you and Main Street? 

Mr. Harrison. There was — I believe there was a captain — I don't recall who 
it was — I believe it was Captain Jones, though — talking to this uniformed 
reserve captain. 

Mr. Griffin.. Solomon? 

Mr. Harrison. No; Arnett. 

Mr. Griffin. Arnett? 

Mr. Harrison. In the Dallas reserves. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other police officers up in that general direction? 

Mr. Harrison. There were oflScers out in this area right in here. 

Mr. Griffin. You are pointing to the area north of the entrance to the jail? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, no ; right along the side here. See, this was lined with 
oflScers. 

Mr. Griffin. The first place that you indicate to is the south wall of the 
entranceway toward the jail oflice and up to the corner of the ramp and then 
along the ramp, the east wall of the ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. West wall. 

Mr. Griffin. West wall of the ramp toward Commerce Street? 

Mr. Harrison. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. That is where there were police officers? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Okay. And also that there were police officers along the north 
wall of the entranceway leading toward the door of the jail office, officers 
right in there? 

Mrw Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, as O'Dell's car moved up the ramp, what did 
you do? 

Mr. Harrison. I just moved these men back and — or asked them to move 
back — and let him out. 

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. Now, did you watch his car go up the ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. No; I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see what Jones and Arnett did ? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I didn't. Well, I know they moved back out of the way. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there news people str'ung across the Main Street ramp 
who had to be moved out of the way in order to let O'Dell's car move through? 

Mr. Harrison. Not at that time, not on O'Dell's car. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what then happened? Where did you then go after 
O'Dell's car went up the ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. Back into my original area. It was about halfway between 
the ramp and — the rail and the west wall. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you looking around the area generally? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, if anybody had come down the Main Street ramp while 
you were standing there up until the time that Pierce's car went out, would 
you have seen him come down ? 

Mr. Harrison. Would you repeat that, now? 

248 



Mr. Gbiffin. If anybody had come down the Main Street ramp up to the 
time, between the time that O'Dell's car left and the time that Pierce's car went 
up, would you have seen the person who was coming down there? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't think I would have. I was facing more or less back 
in this particular 

Mr. Griffin. All right. At any time during those few minutes between 
O'Dell's car leaving and Pierce's car leaving, did you look in the direction of 
the Main Street ramp or over in the direction of the garage area? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. Now, if Jack Ruby had been in that area during that 
period, would you have seen him? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know about that. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, now, why do you say that? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know whether I would have seen him or not. It was 
mass confusion, as far as people moving around in there. 

Mr. Griffin. But the confusion was over in the area at the entrance of the 
garage, wasn't it? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. And this area up the Main Street ramp was relatively clear? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. And you knew Jack Ruby well enough, certainly as well as 
you know Mr. MacMaster, if you saw him jlist even briefly, you would recognize 
him? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. So if at any time you had looked over in that area and Jack 
Ruby were there, you would have seen him, wouldn't you? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, it was very hard to see in this direction at all. 

Mr. Griffin. In the direction of the garage? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Why was that? 

Mr. Harrison. In this position. These floodlights were very bright. 

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. 

Mr. Harrison. They had — I don't know how many they had. 

Mr. Griffin. How long were the floodlights on prior to the time that Oswald 
came out? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. Were they — try to think about this, now — were they on when 
you flrst came into the basement? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I don't believe they were. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, they were taken — did you know whether or not, when the 
armored car came down the Commerce Street ramp, the, TV cameras, any of the 
TV cameras, were focused on that armored car? 

Mr. Harrison. I didn't notice that. He didn't get all of the way down there. 

Mr. Griffin. At the time that Rio Pierce's car moved out, were the flood- 
lights on? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. At the time that O'Dell's car moved out, were the TV cameras — 
were the floodlights on? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall whether they were on or off. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you have any trouble seeing up in the direction of the 
armored car? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. And standing, from where you were, even in the center of the 
entranceway toward the jail oflSce, you could see up the ramp toward the 
armored car and you could recognize the faces of people up there, couldn't you? 

Mr. Harrison. Possibly, yes., 

Mr. Griffin. Was there — other than the little diflSculty we all experience 
with vision, either through age or what-not, was there anything unusually diflS- 
cult about looking up in the direction and seeing in the direction of the Com- 
merce Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

249 



Mr. Griffin. And how far up the ramp was the armored car or how far down 
the ramp, I should say? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I didn't go up there, but it appeared to be setting just 
backed into the doorway. 

Mr. Griffin. Would you say it was halfway down? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; it wasn't halfway down. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were there officers, police officers, standing up there around 
the back of the, armored car? 

Mr. Harrison. I remember seeing Lieutenant Butler up there. 

Mr. Griffin. And could you distinguish these police officers from the position 
in the middle of the entranceway to the jail office where you have marked your 
initial, where you have marked your initial position on the ramp here, could 
you, looking up towards Commerce Street, could you distinguish the faces of the 
police officers up there, could you recognize who they were, toward the armored 
car? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I recognized Lieutenant Butler, but I don't recall see- 
ing — now, Chief Batchelor was around the truck. They went in and out of the 
truck there inspecting it. 

Mr. Griffin. And do you recall seeing him up there? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. And you didn't have any difficulty seeing Batchelor 
from your position on the ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. And presumably the same situation would prevail if you looked 
up toward the Main Street ramp, isn't that right? 

Mr. Harbison. That is right. 

Mr. Griffin. And did you ever have occasion to look up toward the Main 
Street ramp and see the police officer who was guarding the exit to the ramp 
up there? 

Mr. Harrison. There was a uniformed officer up there. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, from where you were down here at what we have called 
your initial position, on the time or times that you looked up toward that imi- 
formed officer up there, could you make out his face and what-not? 

Mr. Harrison. I never did see his face. All I could see was a man in uniform 
up there. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, we have learned subsequently, and you have, too, I am 
sure, that that was Officer Vaughn that was up there? 

Mr. Harrison. That is right. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Vaughn before? 

Mr. Harbison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you able, to tell from where you were that it was Vaughn 
up there? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I didn't know who it was up there. I could just see his 
uniform and back. 

Mr. Griffin. Was it because he didn't turn his face to you? 

Mr. Harbison. He was facing out when I looked up there. 

Mr. Gbiffin. You feel that, if he turned his face toward you, you would 
have recognized who it was? 

Mr. Harrison. I would probably have recognized him ; yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you if the same thing is true, when you looked up 
toward the Commerce Street entrance and the sidewalk, there were — do you 
remember that there were officers guarding up there? 

Mr. Harbison. I couldn't see any officers out there. It was considerably 
darker up on this end of the ramp due to the fact that the armored truck had 
the light blocked off. 

Mr. Gbiffin. I see. 

Mr. Harrison. I mean the vision, it was pretty well — the whole ramp area 
was pretty well taken up by that truck? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. Let me make sure that I am clear on that. I don't want 
to put words in your mouth. Is it fair to say that, if on any occasion that you 
had to look up toward the Main Street ramp, if there had been a man walking 

250 



down that ramp, you or any other officer with vision like yourself would have 
been able to recognize that person coming down the ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know whether you could have recognized him or 
not due to the fact that you were looking into sunlight. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, that is the north side of the building. 

Mr. Harrison. That is on the north side of the building, but it was very bright 
that day. 

Mr. Griffin. But you also had floodlights down in the basement? 

Mr. Harrison. That is right. 

Mr. Griffin. It was bright in the basement? 

Mr. Harrison. That is right. 

Mr. Griffin. Your eyes would be accustomed to those bright lights? 

Mr. Harrison. A man coming down, if he got close to you, you could recognize 
him, but ju.st a man in a suit walking down that ramp, it would have been hard 
to recognize. I will put it that way. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, would a man walking down from the Main Street side have 
been any more diflBcult to recognize than a man that was standing up in the 
position that Captain Butler was or Assistant Chief Batchelor was? 

Mr. Harrison. Batchelor and Butler, Lieutenant Butler. 

Mr. Griffin. Would it have been any more difficult to recognize a man coming 
down the Main Street ramp than it would those two men coming up the Com- 
merce Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes ; I believe it would have been, due to the glare in your face. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were you keeping an eye out generally for people, news 
people, who might try to drift over into that area, and by "that area," I am 
referring to the area along the Main Street ramp, across the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. Would you ask that question again? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. 

Mr. Harrison. And point out there, please. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. I am referring to the area that goes directly across the 
Main Street ramp down to the base of the ramp. That area, as I understand it, 
was supposed to be kept clear. Were you keeping an eye out to make sure 
that people didn't congregate in there? 

Mr. Harrison. There was several officers in this area right in here. I don't 
know the names of them. I couldn't spot any of them for you. There was one 
newsman, who had a microphone, immediately to my right. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, your right as you faced in what direction? 

Mr. Harrison. As I was facing south. 

Mr. Griffin. That would be toward Commerce Street? 

Mr. Harrison. Right. 

Mr. Griffin. At what point was there a man there? 

Mr. Harrison. He was even with me. 

Mr. Griffin. I mean at what time 

Mr. Harrison. Oh. 

Mr. Griffin. In this series of events. 

Mr. Harrison. He was in that general area all of the time. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you keep an eye on him? 

Mr. Harrison. No. I wasn't particularly watching him. 

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other news people who were there in that area? 

Mr. Harrison. There was a Japanese photographer on my left, immediately 
to my left. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, this Officer Harrison, this position that you have marked 
here as the initial position, is that also approximately the position you were 
standing at the time that Oswald walked out? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. So that, when you say on your left there, are you 
talking about at the time that Oswald actually walked out, that is where that 
Japanese photographer, hewsman, was? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Put an "X," if you would, put a small "J" on that 

251 



map where that man was and put a circle around it. Now, that is where the 
Japanese photographer was standing at the time that Oswald walked out 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Is that right? Now, where was this man with the microphone 
standing? 

Mr. Harrison. He was immediately to my right. 

Mr. Griffin. Why don't you put an "M" and a circle around him? Now, 
were there any other police officers over in this general area where you 3 i)eople 
were? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Who were the other police officers? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, when Rio Pierce's car came out, what did you 
do? 

Mr. Harrison. I got these people to move back out of the way and let him 
through, and I stepped back to the rail, toward the lights there and let him 
through. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, did you have your back to the railing or were 
you facing the railing? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I had my back to the railing. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you watch Pierce's car go up the ramp at all? 

Mr. Harrison. I watched it until it cleared the people in that immediate area. 

Mr. Griffin. How many people were there to clear out in that immediate 
area, would you say? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, there was seven or eight, I would say. 

Mr. Griffin. You wouldn't say there were as many as 20 or 25, would you? 

Mr. Harrison. No, no. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, were those people all newspaper people, members of the 
press, or were there some police officers? 

Mr. Harrison. There were some police officers in that area. 

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. Now, at the time that Oswald actually came out of 
the jail office, how many lines of i^eople, would you say, were strung along in 
that area that you were? Was there more than one line of people? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, then 

Mr. Harrison. Now, where are you referring to? 

Mr. Griffin. As I understand it, as Oswald walked out, there was a line of 
people that came from the north 

Mr. Harrison. Northwest. 

Mr. Griffin. What corner are we going to call that, northwest or northeast? 
I think this would be the west. 

Mr. MacMaster. Northwest, that is right, isn't it? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes; that is correct. 

Mr. Griffin. I am going to put "Northwest corner" here so we will know 
what we are talking about. There was a line of people, was there not, from 
what I have marked the northwest corner cf the Main Street wall all of the way 
over to you and then around here? No? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. Okay. I am honestly trying to find out here how these people 
were lined up. 

Mr. Harrison. Well, due to these lights and the cameras being here, this area 
was open. There was. like I say, this Japanese, and there was another man 
or two in that area here, whom I don't — I don't have any idea who he was. 

Mr. Griffin. Just put a couple of question marks there. Okay. 

Mr. Harrison. And behind me, there were — not immediately behind me, but 
back in this area 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Harrison. Toward the west wall, there was police and also Captain Arnett 
of the reserves standing — he was standing fairly close to me behind me. 

252 



Mr. Griffin. Where was Captain Amett? Put an "A" where you think he 
was and then put a circle around that. 

Mr. Harrison. He was in that general area somewhere. 

Mr. Griffin. At the time that Oswald walked out? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes ; I believe he was. I am not 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember seeing him there about that time? 

Mr. Harrison. I remember seeing the uniform there, and he was the captain 
who was in the uniform down there. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you remember seeing these people over here at that 
time? 

Mr. Harrison. They were — yes ; they were there. There were, I believe, two 
people right in here and there were the cameramen behind the rail. 

Mr. Griffin. Blackie. do you remember this from actual memory of what 
happened or do you remember this from having seen the photographs, the films? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I remember these people on my left here and the ones 
here on my right. I remember this man with a microphone very distinctly 
because, when they brought him out, these fellows back here hollered for me 
to move the line back, which I did. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you remember if there were any people directly behind 
you? 

Mr. Harrison. No; not that I recall. I remember I spread my arms out and 
backed the group up where these cameras could get a clear shot of him coming 
out. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, is it fair to say that, if there had been people in back 
of you, you would have either known it because you were looking around there 
or because you would have wanted to have cleared them out or would have 
been worried about it or anything like that? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I wouldn't necessarily have seen them, because I was 
watching this line across here to keep them from going forward into the path 
of this — of where Oswald was coming out. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, at any time after Rio Pierce's car went up that ramp, did 
you look in the direction of the ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. Not that I recall ; no. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you see any other oflUcers look in the direction of the ramp 
during that period? 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, while you were over here, as Rio Pierce's car drove out, 
were other oflScers lined up along 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. The other wall? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. And, to your knowledge, were any of them looking out in this 
direction toward the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. I didn't notice any of them looking out that way. They could 
have been. There was — I know, when they brought Oswald out, Lowery was 
standing right here on the — on this corner. 

Mr. Griffin. Will you put a mark, put an "L," there where Lowery was? Did 
you at any time, now, did you see Jack Ruby in this basement at any time before 
he shot Oswald? 

Mr. Harrison. Not before he shot Oswald. 

Mr. Griffin. When you were standing here, did you feel a man pressing up 
against your back? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. Of course, you have seen the photographs, haven't you? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. And you baw where Jack came from? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Was there anybody that you know of that saw Ruby there? 

Mr. Harrison. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Griffin. Have you talked to anybody that indicated to you that he saw 
Ruby there? 

253 



Mr. Harrison. I sure haven't. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what did you do after Ruby shot Oswald? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I grabbed him and more or less went to the floor with 
him and then we took him on into the jail office. 

Mr. Griffin. And how long did you remain with him in the jail office? 

Mr. Harrison. Until he was handcuffed, and I went upstairs on the elevator 
with him. 

Mr. Griffin. And how long did you remain with him upstairs? 

Mr. Harrison. I didn't. I left him at the elevator. McMillon and Archer 
went back, took him on back to the cell, and I went back down on the ele- 
vator to the basement. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do — you weren't present, were you, when Jack 
was stripped and searched? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. Griffin. When you got back down to the basement, where did you go? 

Mr. Harrison. I went back out into the ramp area. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you — how long did you remain in the ramp area? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, it was about — until after the ambulance left with Oswald, 
and then the captain— I believe it was Captain Jones — sent me up to the first 
floor to see that no one come in there in that— on the first floor that wasn't au- 
thorized. We were given orders to stop everyone and see if they were going 
out of the building to find out who they were. 

Mr. Griffin. Whereabouts did you station yourself on the first floor? 

Mr. Harrison. I was right there in front of the elevators, at the elevator door. 

Mr. Griffin. Were you there alone? 

Mr. Harrison. There was — well, there was three or four more officers on that 
floor. There was one at every door and exit. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Officer Miller up there with you? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall where Miller was at that time. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Officer Lowery up there with you? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall. 

Mr. Griffin. Officer Cutchshaw? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know whether they were or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to anybody while you were up there or before you 
got up there concerning how Ruby got into the basement? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I told Chief Batchelor, just after I come back downstairs 
from taking him up — I told Chief Batchelor that I thought he come from be- 
hind those cameras over there, but — and that is where I thought he come from 
at that time. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, why did you think he came from behind the cameras? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, there was — he came from my left, and I don't see how 
he could get down the ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. Why did you feel that way? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I knew there was an officer on the ramp and I just didn't 
feel like he could have gotten down there. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you also feel that you would have seen him if he had come 
down that ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. No, not necessarily ; because I wasn't looking toward the ramp 
all of the time. I never — had I been turned where I could have seen the ramp 
all of the time, I may have seen him coming down. 

Mr. Griffin. If Jack had been in that — were you moving around such after 
Rio Pierce's car moved that, if Jack had been down there in the basement area, 
you would have seen him? 

Mr. Harrison. Not necessarily ; it is possible that he could have been down 
there and I wouldn't have seen him because he had been back over in this group 
of newsmen. 

Mr. Griffin. All right ; but if he had been in the area of the ramp, if he had 
been up in this area where you were and around up toward the Main Street ramp, 
would you have seen him if he had been in there? 

Mr. Harrison. I might have. I don't — I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. There weren't enough news people milling around up in that 
area to have obscured him, were there? 

254 



Mr. Harrison. Not in that immediate area ; no. 

Mr. Griffin. In other words, if anybody had been turning and looking up 
toward the Main Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper peo- 
ple in there to have obscured the sight of Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't suppose there would have been. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, I am not trying to put words in your mouth. I want to 
make this very clear. I am giving you a direct question like this, but if you 
feel differently, I want to know if you disagree with me. I am asking a leading 
question here, but I w^ant to make sure that I am not leading 

Mr. Harrison. What was the question again? 

Mr. Griffin. If Jack Ruby had been in this area at the base of the Main 
Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper people there? The 
fact that there were newspaper people around wouldn't have obscured the 
sight of him from anybody that was looking up in that direction? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't think it would have obscured him, had they been 
looking in that direction. Now, I did, as I said a while ago, I have looked at 
some films, and I did look to my left, oh 

Mr. Griffin. By "left," you mean up in the direction of the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. "When this guy hollered to me to move the crowd back, I looked 
to my left and backed the people up. 

Mr. Griffin. Your left would be up in the direction of the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; it would be toward the cameras. 

Mr. Griffin. Toward the cameras? 

Mr. Harrison. Television cameras, yes ; over in this direction. 

Mr. Griffin. And, as you looked over there, you didn't see Jack Ruby? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember looking over there like that or do you only 
remember it from having seen the photograph? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; when they hollered, I glanced over there to see where we 
were in trying to 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Harrison. In trying to get out of line of those cameras. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you remember, as you looked over there, whether you 
had any difficulty in seeing people over in that area ? 

Mr. Harrison. There wasn't anyone in here. 

Mr. Griffin. In front of the cameras? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; there was no one in front of the cameras. 

Mr. Griffin. What would you say would be the total number of people, 
including newspaper people and police officers, who were strung from the north- 
west corner over toward the cameras at the time Oswald came out? 

Mr. Harrison. I would say maybe eight or nine. 

Mr. Griffin. All right, now. How long did you remain up there by those 
elevators? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, it was, I imagine, 45 minutes. 

Mr. Griffin. And what did you do when you left the elevators? 

Mr. Harrison. Went back upstairs to the bureau. 

Mr. Griffin. Which bureau, now, juvenile bureau? 

Mr. Harrison. Juvenile bureau. 

Mr. Griffin. What did you do in the juvenile bureau? 

Mr. Harrison. We stayed there until they told us to — Captain Jones told 
us to go up to homicide bureau and write a report as to what we saw and what 
we did on this thing. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, did Captain Jones give the instructions to write 
a report to everybody? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, he told — I didn't hear him give it to everybody. He told 
me and Cutchshaw and Lowery to. 

Mr. Griffin. Was Miller up there at the time? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall whether Miller was there or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Was it your understanding that Jones was trying to contact 
everybody to get them to write a report as quickly as possible? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, now, I don't know about that. He came up there and 
told me to report back to the bureau, and when we got to the bureau, well, he 

255 



told — came in and told Lowery, myself, and Cutchshaw — I remember that very 
distinctly — to go into Captain Fritz' office and write a report. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, about what time would you say you wrote that report? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't have any idea. 

Mr. Griffin. Well, let me ask you this, then. Maybe this will place it. 
After you wrote that report, you went out to Love I^eld, didn't you? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what time would you estimate that you went to Love 
Field? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, we were supposed to be out there when Mayor Cabell's 
plane left, I believe it was at 5 :20, and we left the city hall shortly after 4 
o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. When you left the city hall, did you make — did you report in 
with the dispatcher or anything like that? 

Mr. Harrison. No; there was no — we went out in two separate cars and we 
went to — started up Harwood Street, and they gave Lowery a call to return 
to the station, and Captain Martin met us there in the basement and briefed us 
as to what to do out at Love Field. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. 

Mr. Harrison. And then we headed on out to Love Field. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. But, on this question, I understand you that there 
would not be any record in the office, such as a dispatcher's record or some- 
thing like that, that would show when you left for Love Field, or would there? 

Mr. Harrison. There would be a record of what time he gave Lowery that 
call to return to the station. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. And that was a call from captain who? 

Mr. Harrison. Martin. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, you had already started out 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. And turned around and came back? Okay; now, how much 
time elapsed between the time that you finished — well, strike that. Did you 
finish writing the report in the homicide office? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. How much time elapsed between when you finished that report 
in the homicide office and you got in your car to go out to Love Field? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't have any idea, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Was it right away or did you go back to the juvenile bureau? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, we went back to the juvenile bureau ; yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, is there an original copy — you wrote that report by hand, 
didn't you? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, and is that — I am going to call a halt here and I am 
going to mark a couple of exhibits. All right. I am going to hand you, Mr. 
Harrison, what I have marked as Exhibit No. -5030. Now, this is a copy of a 
letter, which you apparently signed and was addressed to Chief Curry dated 
November 24. Now, let me ask you, did you write that out in hand first? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. GriffiNh And do you know whether your office has retained hand- 
written copies of those reports? 

Mr. Harrison. No. It was — I am sure it was thrown away. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, who did you turn your handwritten copy over to? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know who typed it up. I know this was signed and 
sent in by, I think. Lieutenant Wallace. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Would you do this for me? After we finish here, 
would you check with Captain Martin and Lieutenant Wallace and find out 
from them if the handwritten copies of the things — of your report, hand- 
written copy of your report, is available 

Mr. Harrison. All right. 

Mr. Griffin. If it has been retained? I believe that you will find that 
many of these were retained. There are other officers who have been able 
to get these for us. 

Mr. Harrison. Uh-huh. 

256 



Mr. Griffin. And so I am inclined to believe that it is probably available 
someplace, and if you will get that and turn it over to us, I would appre- 
ciate that very much. We will make a copy of it and return the original to 
the department, but I would like a copy of that. Now, do you remember 
whether or not — do you remember any of the people who were in the homi- 
cide oflBce when you filled out that report? 

Mr. Harrison. Cutchshaw, myself. 

Mr. Griffin. Any of the homicide people who were there? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember if Fritz was there? 

Mr. Harrison. He was in and out of there during the time that we were in 
there, but I don't recall how long he stayed or anything like that. 

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember if Montgomery was there? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, Montgomery was in there. 

Mr. Griffin. How do you happen to know about Montgomery being there? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I know Montgomery very well. In fact, I used to be 
close neighbors to him. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. 

Mr. Harrison. And I do remember him being in there. I remember that 
very clearly. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you talk with Montgomery at all about what had hap- 
pened down in the basement? 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. While you were in the juvenile bureau, before you left to go 
to Love Field, did you hear any rumors as to how Ruby got in the basement? 

Mr. Harrison. No. They were talking about — Lowery said that he thought 
that he may have come by with a camera that was moved across just prior to the 
time that Pierce's car went out, and they were talking about the number of 
men who were on tJbiat camera, the particular camera. And — but that is the 
only discussion I heard as to how he may have got in there. For some time 
there, we thought that may have been the way he got in, I mean the men in my 
particular bureau. 

Mr. Griffin. When did Lowery first tell you that? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, he had started talking about this when we were in 
the basement. 

Mr. Griffin. And while you were in the basement, did you hear any other 
rumors as to how he got in? 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir ; sure didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, as long as you were at the juvenile bureau, did you hear 
any rumor about his coming down the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. No, no ; I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with Officer McMillon on the day before you 
went to the juvenile bureau and after Ruby was shot — I mean Oswald was 
shot? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Griffin. How about Ofllcer Archer? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, now, they went up on the elevator with me, I found 
out later, but I didn't see them. 

Mr. Griffin. Or Clardy? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't remember whether Clardy was on there or not. 

Mr. Griffin. Or Dean? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't recall if Dean was on there. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you talk with Dean at any time on the 24th after 
Ruby was shot — Oswald was shot? 

Mr. Harrison. No, I didn't talk with Dean at all. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to any people in the patrol division 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Afterward? 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

257 



Mr. Griffin. At any time on Sunday, that is, the day that Oswald was shot, 
did you hear the rumor that Ruby came down the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you got bacl? — what time did you get back to the 
juvenile bureau on Friday — I mean on Sunday? 

Mr. Harrison. It was well after 6 o'clock. 

Mr. Griffin. And did you — when you got back there, did you talk with any- 
body about how Ruby might have got in? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I went on home. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear any discussion from anybody 

Mr. Harrison. No, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. From anybody about how — well, weren't people generally dis- 
cussing this? 

Mr. Harrison. I suppose they were, but I was tired, and I went home. 

Mr. Griffin. Wasn't this a big topic of conversation back there at this time? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't know. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. When you got back on Monday morning — did you 
come in Monday morning? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you begin to talk with people about how Ruby got in? 

Mr. Harrison. I suppose I did, but I don't recall. 

Mr. Griffin. When is the first time that you recall hearing the rumor that he 
came down the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, it would have been possibly Monday. I was off Tuesday 
and Wednesday. I am not sure. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did McMillon ever tell you at any time that — have you 
talked with McMillon about this, these events, at any time since Sunday the 24th ? 

Mr. Harrison. We have had some discussion, but I don't recall what it was. 
Of course, we have talked to several. 

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to Dean at any time? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; I have never talked to him. 

Mr. Griffin. Are you friendly to Dean? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; he is in the radio patrol, and I very seldom see the man. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. How about Archer? 

Mr. Harrison. Archer, he is in the auto bureau. I see him occasionally. 

Mr. Griffin. How about Clardy? 

Mr. Harrison. Occasionally ; I see him. 
• Mr. Griffin. Now, have any of these men told you since the — since the time 
that Oswald was shot by Ruby that Ruby told them that he came in through 
the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Harrison. They never did tell me that, none of them. Now 

Mr. Griffin. When was the first — go ahead. 

Mr. Harrison. I heard, after the trial down there — I heard them discussing, 
of course, the evidence that was brought out, and they said that he had made the 
statement that he came in that way. And when Lieutenant Wallace and Lieu- 
tenant McCaghren were making their followup investigation, which I don't know 
how many days it was after, they had talked that he had, or suggested that he 
had, come down the ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, they had suggested this? 

Mr. Harbison. Well, they had, through their investigation, more or less, they 
had kind of — I guess you would make a theory out of it that he had come down 
the ramp. 

Mr. Griffin. You don't mean that they suggested it, but this is the inference 
or the conclusion that they drew? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, what I would like for you to do is, if you would, sign 
Exhibit 5028 and date it. 

Mr. Harrison. This is the 25th, isn't it? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes, it is. Isn't it? Yes. I might say for the record, so that 
Mr. MacMaster understands, part of the procedures here now permit you to ask 

258 



any questions that you want of Mr. Harrison, and I am going to just ask him to 
identify, sign these documents, identify them, and ask him specifically whether 
he has any changes that he would want to make on these, particularly on these 
reports and statements, and I am prepared to accommodate myself to your 
time on this, if you feel that you want to ask some questions. If you prefer to 
adjourn for dinner, or something like that, and come back, I would be happy to 
do that, and resume it later on this evening. 

Mr. Harrison. I would rather go ahead with it, if it is agreeable with you all. 

Mr. Griffin. It doesn't make any difference with me. 

Mr. MacMaster. Mr. Harrison, on Exhibit 5026, I believe that was the first 
exhibit. 

Mr. Griffin. Twenty-seven. 

Mr. MacMaster. Twenty-seven. That is just a reference to the basement area. 
Is that the police recreation room or locker room? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes. 

Mr. MacMaster. That is just a rough hand drawing, you didn't intend that 
to be exact to scale in any way? 

Mr. Harrison. No. 

Mr. MacMaster. That is all. At the time you were down in the basement area 
and they brought Oswald down, with the police security measures that were in 
effect, you wouldn't have any reason to believe that any unauthorized person 
would enter into the area, would you 

Mr. Harrison. No* sir. 

Mr. MacMaster. Because of the police measures in effect at that time 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MacMaster. Security measures? In other words, any other unauthorized 
persons in the area, in other words, Ruby, would be a big surprise to you? 

Mr. Harrison. It would ; yes. 

Mr. MacMaster. Was it a surprise to you to see an unauthorized person down 
there the first time when he came around you? 

Mr. Harrison. It certainly was. 

Mr. MacMaster. Now, on extra duty for police ofl5cers, isn't it a standard 
departmental policy that you can't work on off-duty work at anyplace serving 
alcoholic beverages? 

Mr. Harrison. That is correct. 

Mr. MacMaster. Is that the chief's direct order ? 

Mr. Harrison. That is a direct order. They have special oflScers for that 
type of work. 

Mr. MacMaster. But it is in the nature of regular police duty, that is, special 
oflBcers? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MacMasters. But you can't, that is, in civilian clothes, you can't work 
anyplace in an off-duty status for extra money in anyplace serving alcoholic 
beverages? 

Mr. Harrison. That is right ; either in uniform or out of uniform. 

Mr. MacMaster. That is all. 

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Harrison, I wonder if you would look at what I have marked 
as Exhibits 5029, 5030, and 5031. Five thousand twenty-nime is a report of an 
interview of two FBI agents, Wilkinson and Hardin, had with you on December 
5, 1963 ; Exhibit 5030 is a copy of a statement or a letter, which you addressed to 
Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, entitled, "Subject : Shooting of Lee Harvey 
Oswald," and Exhibit 5031 is a copy of — is a report of an interview that Agent 
Bookhout, [spelling] B-o-o-k-h-o-u-t, had with you on November 24, 1963. Have 
you looked over these statements today? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you want to make any changes or corrections or addi- 
tions in there in those statements, keeping in mind the testimony that has already 
been given here today? 

Mr. Harrison. This on Mr. Bookhout's interview, which was over the tele- 
phone. 

259 



Mr. Griffin. It was? 

Mr. Habrison. It was over the telephone. I was at Love Field when this 

Mr. MacMaster. To identify that, that is Exhibit 5031 you are referring to. 

Mr. Griffin. Yes ; let me ask you a question there. Do you know how Book- 
hout reached you there? 

Mr. Harrison. I had called in to see how long they wanted us to stay out there, 
and Lieutenant Coulon identified Mr. Bookhout to me over the phone. 

Mr. Griffin. Now, did Bookhout ask you, or did anybody ask you, if any other 
ofl5cers were out there with you? 

Mr. Harbison. Yes. 

Mr. Griffin. And did Bookhout talk to those oflScers over the phone, also? 

Mr. Harrison. No ; he did not. 

Mr. Griffin. I see. 

Mr. Harbison. But this one little part right here, I don't recall saying that at 
all. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. What part is that? 

Mr. Harbison. "Saved a lot of people some trouble." 

Mr. Griffin. Well, all right. Now, is it possible that you could have said 
that to him? 

Mr. Harrison. I don't think I did. 

Mr. Griffin. Why do you say that you don't think you did? 

Mr. Harrison. Well, I didn't hear it. I mean I heard him say this very plain. 

Mr. Griffin. "I hope I killed the SOB," you heard him say that? 

Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Griffin. But you didn't hear him state, "And saved a lot of people some 
trouble"? 

Mr. Habrison. I don't recall hearing that. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Would you do this? Would you take a pen and would 
you put a parenthesis around from "and" to the end of that sentence, and then 
would you write in there, "I don't believe I stated that," or whatever you believe 
that reflects your opinion at this time? Would you initial that? 

Mr. Harrison. I did. 

Mr. Griffin. And date it. It is the 25th day. Now, are there any other 
changes or additions or corrections you would make on there? 

Mr. Harrison. Oh, on this, where it says, "You all know me, I am Jack Ruby, 
made that several times," he didn't make the statement but once, actually and 1 
don't know where this "several times" came from. 

Mr. MacMasteb. Was that just once in your presence? 

Mr. Haebison. Yes. 

Mr. MacMasteb. In other words, while you were around and near Jack Ruby, 
is the only time you heard him was just one time? 

Mr. Harrison. One time. 

Mr. Griffin. All right. Why don't you cross out "several times" and write 
"once"? And why don't you initial it and date it? Anything else on there? 

Mr. Harrison. No. It all seems to be 

Mr. Griffin. All right. If you would, sign each of those. 

Mr. Harrison. Where? 

Mr. Griffin. Well, put it down on the same page that I have marked the 
exhibit, some place where it is legible. Why don't you put it down at the bottoin 
of the page and date it? 

Mr. Harbison. All of them? 

Mr. Griffin. Yes. Well, not every page. Just every page that I have marked 
as an exhibit. 

Mr. MacMaster. Is that all now? 

Mr. Griffin. That is all that I haVe got. 

Mr. MacMaster. Do you have any more? 

Mr. Griffin. I do have one other question to ask here. 

Mr. MacMasteb. Okay. 

Mr. Gbiffin. Have I or any member of the Commission staflf talked with you 
prior to this deposition? 

Mr. Habrison. No, sir. 

260 



TESTIMONY OF HAROLD B. HOLLY, JR. 

The testimony of Harold B. Holly, Jr., was taken at 8 p.m., on March 26, 1964, 
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Oflace Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hub'ert, Jr., assistant counsel of the 
President's Commission. 

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Mr. Harold B. Holly, Jr. Mr. Holly, my 
name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the staff of the general counsel 
to the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. 

Under the authority of the Presidential Proclamation 11130, dated November 29, 
1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules of procedure that have 
been adopted by the Commission, I have been authorized to take your deposition 
under oath. Now, the general nature of the inquiry of the Commission is to 
ascertain the facts concerning the death of President Kennedy and the death of 
Lee Harvey Oswald. 

In particular as to you, the inquiry is to determine what facts you know 
concerning these events, or anything related to them. 

I advise you that under the rules adopted by the Commission, you have a right 
to a 3-day written notice prior to being asked to come for a deposition, but the 
rules also provide that a witness may waive that right if he wishes to do so. 

You have been asked to come because Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel 
of the Commission, wrote a letter to Mr. J. E. Curry asking that he make you 
available. But I repeat, you may either waive the 3-day notice, or if you 
wish you may insist on the 3-day notice. Do you wish to waive that notice? 

Mr. Holly. No ; I would like to go ahead. 

Mr. Hubert. You mean yes, you wish to waive? You would rather go ahead? 

Mr. Hollt. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Then I will ask you to stand and raise your right hand. Do 
you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Holly. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your full name, sir? 

Mr. Holly. Harold B. Holly, Jr. 

Mr. Hubert. How old are you? 

Mr. Holly. Forty-seven. 

Mr. Hubert. Where do you live? 

Mr. Holly. 3429 Antilles, Mesquite. 

Mr. Hubert. Mesquite, it is not in Dallas? 

Mr. Holly. No ; it is Mesquite, Tex., a suburb. 

Mr. HuBEKT. Now, you are actually a reserve oflScer of the Dallas police? 

Mr. Holly. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been connected with the reserves? 

Mr. Holly. Five years, going on six. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation in civilian life? 

Mr. Holly. General contractor and cabinetwork. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you own your own business? 

Mr. Holly. Yes, sir. Nineteen years. 

Mr. Hubert. In that business? 

Mr. Holly. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. I know that you performed some services as a reserve officer 
on the 22d and 23d, but our inquiry now is as to the functions you performed 
on the 24th, or perhaps you didn't perform? 

Mr. Holly. Let's say the 23d and the 24th. The assassination took place 
the 23d, right? 

Mr. Hubert. No, 22d. 

Mr. Holly. 22d and 23d. 

Mr. Hubert. That was a Saturday. I am asking about Sunday the 24th. 

Mr. Holly. I was up here all day Saturday. Sunday, I didn't participate, 
as well as I can remember. 

Mr. Hubert. You had not anticipated being called? 

Mr. Holly. No. 

261 



Mr. Hubert. Were you, in fact, called on Simday? 

Mr. Holly. I don't recall now. It is pretty vague there. The day of as- 
sassination I was called, and the day Oswald was shot, I was called. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, that was the 24th of November, a Sunday. 

Mr. HoLLT. Sunday. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, how were you called? 

Mr. Holly. I beg your pardon, I was here Friday. Friday, Saturday, and 
Sunday; I sure was. 

Mr. Hubert. And at what time were you called on Sunday the 24th, the 
day Oswald was shot? 

Mr. Holly. It was the morning. I believe it was around 9 o'clock and they 
called and said for me to report downtown. They were going to try to move 
him out around 2 o'clock. I immediately come to town. 

Mr. Hubert. You got into uniform? 

Mr. Holly. Yes; and at the present time, I don't recall, because I got down 
about 5 minutes after he was shot. I reported for duty at the entrance of the 
Main Street entrance to the city hall. 

Mr. Hubert. He had already been shot? 

Mr. Holly. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. To whom did you speak who gave you that information? 

Mr. Holly. Lieutenant Kriss. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you receive any assignment? 

Mr. Holly. Yes. I was assigned to direct traffic and keep traffic from bogging 
down in front of the city hall entrance. And I stayed there approximately 
30 minutes, and then I was reassigned out at Parkland Hospital. 

Mr. Hubert. How did you go out there? 

Mr. Holly. By the convenience of the city. We was hauled out in a squad 
car. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you go out with any group? 

Mr. Holly. Yes; I went out with a group. There were five in our group. 

Mr. Hubert. How long were you out there? 

Mr. Holly. I was there approximately 3 hours. 

Mr. Hubert. Who was with you in that group? 

Mr. Holly. Well 

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the names? 

Mr. Holly. No ; I don't. I don't reciall none of the names, because I wasn't 
familiar with any of the boys. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, do you remember that during the time that you were 
out at Parkland Hospital another reserve officer approached you and stated 
that he had seen the man who shot Oswald coming down the ramp? 

Mr. Holly. No ; he didn't approach me, because I approached him. I went 
over to find where I could get some water. I was stationed where the en- 
trance is where the Governor was, and he told me there was some coffee and 
water if I wanted, and I went in and when I came back I struck up a conversa- 
tion with the man, and we were talking about 

Mr. Hubert. Was he a reserve officer? 

Mr. Holly. Yes; he was a reserve. And in the conversation he said that 
he either knew or he saw Ruby down in the city hall, knew of him getting down 
in there. 

Mr. Hubert. Was he speaking, from what you could tell, of Ruby being dow^n 
in there on the morning that Oswald was assassinated? 

Mr. Holly. Yes. I asked him — the conversation went like, well, how in 
the world could they ever let him in. Everybody knew him, which most re- 
serves do know him. 

Mr. Hubert. You knew him? 

Mr. Holly. Oh, yes ; I knew him. I did business with him. And I would 
know him if I saw him. But I wasn't stationed down there, so therefore, 
I don't know. 

And he said he saw him down there, or did see of him, or he in someway, 
one of the reserves had let him in, and he had a lapel pass on. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, do you know who he was, this reserve? 

262 



Mr. Holly. No. I tried to go through the photographs of who I thought it 
was. I never have learned if it was him. 

Mr. Hubert. You did pick out a person? 

Mr. HOLLT. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know the name of the man you picked out? 

Mr. Holly. No. Captain Solomon mentioned his name, but I don't recall it. 

Mr. Hubert. Does the name Newman refresh your memory? 

Mr. Holly. Newman? It's been so long ago, I wouldn't say. 

Mr. Hubert. Was there any doubt about your identification? 

Mr. Holly. Well, other than I described the man to him, and, of course, I 
went over the photographs with Captain Solomon on Sunday. 

Mr. Hubert. A week later? 

Mr. Holly. On that following Sunday after the date. No ; it was a week later, 
I beg your pardon. It was a week later, and I met him up there Sunday, and 
we went over the photographs with men in their uniforms, and the boy I picked 
out, Captain Solomon said, "Well, that is one of the men that is down in the 
basement," and that is the only one I could think it could have been. 

And he contacted the man and the man was hunting at that time, and I never 
did hear of any more of it. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, what I mean is, the man you did pick out, is there any doubt 
in your mind that you picked out the man you spoke to at the hospital who told 
you he had seen Ruby? 

Mr. Holly. There is a little doubt there, yes. I wouldn't be too positive of it. 
But I feel 

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen this man since? 

Mr. Holly. No ; I haven't seen him since. I didn't know him and never had 
seen him before that. But I am pretty positive I picked out the right man, the 
one that I did see and talk to. 

Mr. Hubert. Let me see if I can get you straight. You say that you are 
pretty positive that you did pick out the right man, but a little while before you 
said that you weren't quite sure? There is a little difference between the two? 

Mr. Holly. I went over several photographs with Captain Solomon and he is 
the only one that resembles him. 

The photographs he showed me were old photographs, so there was a little 
doubt there, and that is the only part I can be doubted on. 

I think he said the photographs he showed me were maybe 3 years old. 

Mr. Hubert. But he didn't get the man and confront you with him? 

Mr. Holly. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Was this man that you saw a youngish man or middle age or 
what? 

Mr. Holly. I would say he was in his thirties, about 37 years old or 36 years 
old. 

Mr. Hubert. Was he a little husky? 

Mr. Holly. He was about 165 or 170, about 5'&" or 9", and blue eyes and bald 
headed. 

Mr. Hubert. He had on a cap? 

Mr. Holly. Had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses. 

Mr. Hubert. He had on a hat? 

Mr. Holly. Had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses. 

Mr. Hubert. So, the way I see it, among those pictures that Captain Solomon 
showed you, you picked out the man you thought was the man ? 

Mr. Holly. I still, think it was the same man that Captain Solomon — he didn't 
tell me prior, but after I picked him out, he said that is the only man it could 
have been, because he was down in the basement, and the way I described it, it 
fitted the description I had given. He did explain after it was over that the 
photographs were about 3 years old. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I think that you passed on the information that this re- 
serve oflScer had given you to someone, did you not? 

Mr. Holly. How was that? 

Mr. Hubert. You reported to someone that a reserve oflBcer had told you? 

Mr. Holly. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Hubert. Who did you report it to? 

263 

731-228 O— 64— vol. XII 18 



Mr. HoLLT. I reported it to the CID oflScer, I guess it was, down on the first 
or second floor of the city hall. 

Mr. HUBEKT. Do you remember who it was? 

Mr. Holly. No ; it was lieutenant someone, through one of the detectives. 

Mr. Hubert. Which detective was that? 

Mr. Holly. Detective Eberhardt I gave the information to one of the stenog'- 
raphers up in burglary and theft division, and I typed it out and sent it on 
down to the lieutenant. Offhand, I don't recall his name. It was one of the 
investigators on the case. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you contacted to make a statement about your activities? 

Mr. Holly. The subject, how it come up, one of the detectives was out at the 
house, and the subject came up that they were trying to find out how in the 
world Ruby ever got down in the basement. And I said, "Well, my Lord, one of 
the reserves let him in." 

Mr. Hubert. When was that? 

Mr. Holly. I would say that was on about a Wednesday or Thursday after 
the accident. And he said, "Will you make a statement?" And I said, "I will be 
glad to." 

Mr. Hubert. Did you make a written statement, or was it just oral? 

Mr. Holly. Oral statement and I signed. 

Mr. Hubert. Did they write it up in the form of an interview, or did he write 
it for your signature as a letter to the chief? 

Mr. Holly. A letter to the — it went through — I don't know what procedure it 
did go through. I just don't know the hand it went into. 

Mr. Hubert. For the purpose of identification, we will see if we can deter- 
mine whether the written reports you have just been speaking of is one of these, 
one that I have here. And also in order to get the contents of these two reports 
into the record, I am going to identify them by marking the first one as ''Dallas, 
Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5109, Deposition of H. B. Holly, Jr.," and I am 
signing my name on the margin. I notice that it has a second page with two 
lines, and I am putting my initials in the lower right-hand corner. 

The other document is a document consisting of five pages, being an inter- 
view, or the report of an interview by two FBI agents, Mr. Dallman and Mr. 
Quigley. I am marking that as "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 
5110, Deposition of H. B. Holly, Jr." I am signing my name on the first page 
and putting my initials on the second, third, fourth, and fifth pages. I would 
like you, Mr. Holly, if you will, please to read all these, and I want to ask 
you about the correctness of each one. So I would like you to read it carefully 
and after you have done so, I will ask you to make any comments you want as 
to the correctness, make any changes you want, if it is not correct, because 
neither of these are your own statements. This is what other people said you 
said. Then I want to find out, too, if there is another report that you, your- 
self, signed, because they don't purport to be signed by you. So, would you do 
that, please? 

Mr. Holly. [Reads report.] 

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Holly, I have shown you, and I think you have read 
now the exhibits which I have identified as No. 5109, being a report of an 
interview of you by Jack Revill, said report being made to Chief of Police Curry 
in a letter dated December 1, 1963. Does that substantially represent what you 
said? 

Mr. Holly. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Is anything wrong about it? 

Mr. Holly. The only thing I can see wrong is, the report wasn't made right 
after the assassination. It was about 5 days afterwards. That is the only 
thing I can see. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, of course, this doesn't say when the report was made. Oh, 
you mean the report about having heard that? 

Mr. Holly. To Lieutenant Revill there. I believe he corrected that, but it 
wasn't made right after. Statement says that I made a statement to Sergeant 
Eberhart. 

Mr. Hubert. I don't see anything in 5109 that indicates you made this report 
aJ)out talking to that man the next day. As a matter of fact, I don't see where 

264 



this report of an interview by Revill attempts to indicate the day on which 
you reported that this reserve oflBcer had said these things to you. 

I think the other document does that. Well, let's look at 5110, which is the 
FBI report of interview, I think. 

Mr. HOLLT. I believe it was in the FBI report there. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes ; on the third page there is of Exhibit 5110, in the last para- 
graph, there is the following language. "He relayed this information to a close 
personal friend of his, Detective Gus Eberhardt, who is a regular officer assigned 
to the burglary and theft bureau. He believed he told Eberhardt this on the 
following day." Is that the part you think is not correct? 

Mr. Holly. No ; that is not correct. 

Mr. Hubert. When did you, then? 

Mr. Holly. It was about the Sunday. It was about Thursday of that week, 
approximately Thursday of that week, he come out to the house, and I was 
going to ride with him that night, and he made the statement that he was trying 
to find out as to how Ruby entered the city hall, and I said, "Well, the in- 
formation you have there I passed on to him." And he said, "Will you make 
a signed statement to that effect." And I said, "I would be glad to." 

Mr. Hubert. Did you then and there 

Mr. Holly. I immediately rode to the city hall and made a report, made a 
statement to the secretary there in the burglary and theft division. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, let me get another book and perhaps we can get that 
in too. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

I am now marking for identification a document which is Commission Docu- 
ment 81A.48. It is apparently a copy of a letter dated November 29, 1963, 
addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, Chief of Police, by A. M. Eberhardt, Detective. 
The copy seems to be signed in ink by A. M. Eberhardt. For identification, I 
am marking that document, although I am not removing it from this file, and 
"Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5111, Deposition of H. B. Holly." 
I am signing my name, Leon D. Hubert, Jr. That document consists of only one 
page. 

Now, going back for a moment to 5110, that is the FBI report, I think you 
said that you had read it and that you found it correct, that it is probably 
a correct record of the interview you had with the FBI agents, except that it 
was in error when it stated that you had conveyed this information to Eberhart 
on the day after Oswald was shot. Your recollection was that it was Thursday 
of that week? 

Mr. Holly. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. This letter indicates. Exhibit 5111, indicates that that informa- 
tion was passed on to Eberhardt on November 29, which I believe was a Thursday, 

Mr. Holly. Yes ; I don't remember if that is dated or not. 

Mr. HUBE21T. That is dated November 29. 

Mr. Holly. That was a Wednesday or Thursday after the shooting? 

Mr. Hubert. The 29th or November 1963, was a Friday night. Could it have 
been Friday night? 

Mr. Holly. Yes ; it could have been. 

Mr. Hubert. In any case, this Exhibit 5111, you think, is the report that you 
were speaking of a little while ago in your deposition? 

Mr. Holly. Yes ; that is the only report that I made to Detective Eberhardt, 

Mr. Hubert. I think you said you thought you had signed it. 

Mr. Holly. I thought I signed that. That is the one right there. 

Mr. Hubert. Exhibit 5111 is the one you were talking about? 

Mr. Holly. Yes. 

Mr. HxjBERT. But you had the recollection of having signed it? Of course, 
here we have only a copy of it. 

Mr. Holly. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. It may be that you did sign the original, but it doesn't indicate 
that there was a space for you to sign. 

Mr. Holly. I was thinking I signed it. 

Mr. Hubert. There was no other report than this one here? 

265 



Mr. Holly. No ; no other report other than the one that I talked to Lieutenant 
Revill about. 

Mr. Htjbebt. Have you any other statements or comments to make concerning 
any part of this? 

Mr. Holly. No ; I have covered it pretty well, I think. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you had any interviews with any others than this deposition 
today? 

Mr. Holly. No, sir ; this is the first time I ever met or seen you. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you had any interviews with any other members of the 
President's Commission, do you know? 

Mr. Holly. No ; other than the FBI, two FBI oflScers. 

Mr. Hubert. I am talking about persons who identified themselves as mem- 
bers of the Commission? 

Mr. Holly. No ; none whatsoever. 

Mr. HuBEiRT. All right, sir, thank you very much. 

Mr. Holly. That is all right. I am glad to be of service. 



TESTIMONY OF HARRY M. KRISS 

The testimony of Harry M. Kriss was taken at 7 :30 p.m., on March 26, 1964, 
in the oflSce of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post OfBce Building, Bryan and Brvay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the Presi- 
dent's Commission. 

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Mr. Harry Kriss. Mr. Kriss, my name 
is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of 
the Commission. Under the provisions of the President's Executive Order 
11130, dated November 23, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, 
and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the 
Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn 
deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Com- 
mission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to 
the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee 
Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Kriss, the nature of the inquiry today 
is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any 
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Kriss, 
you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a general request made by Mr. J. 
Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission to 
Mr. J. E. Curry, the chief of police, who was asked to make all of you gentlemen 
available to us. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, however, you were 
entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the 
rules also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he wishes 
to do so. Are you willing to waive? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes ; I will waive. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you stand so as to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to 
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Krissi. So help me God. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you please state your full name? 

Mr. Kriss. Harry M. Kriss [spelling] K-r-i-s-s. M is the initial. 

Mr. HuBiaiT. Your age, please? Tour age? 

Mr. Kriss. Fifty-three. 

Mr. Hubert. Where do you reside, sir? 

Mr. Kriss. 6906 Merrilee Lane. 

Mr. Hubert. In Dallas? 

Mr. Kbibs. In Dallas. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, you are a reserve oflScer, are you not? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes, sir ; in Dallas. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation in general? 

Mr. Kriss. Occupation in general, manufacturer of sportswear, men's, and 
manufacturer of neckwear. 

266 



Mr. HtJBERT. Are you a native of Dallas ? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And how long have you been in the reserve? 

Mr. Kriss. Eleven years. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, now, were you called on November 24, 1963? 

Mr. Kriss. Well 

Mr. Hubert. That is the Sunday after the President's death. 

Mr. Kriss. That is Sunday after — yes, sir ; yes. 

Mr. Hubert. You were at home at the time? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes, sir; I was getting ready to play golf. Four or five more 
minutes and I'd have been gone. 

Mr. Hubert. And you were called to report? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And when you did report, did you report in uniform ? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes ; surely I did. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, Mr. Kriss, I am showing you here two documents which 
concern what you have already had to say about the matter. 

Mr. Kriss. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And I think we can save considerable time if I'll ask you to 
identify these and comment upon them, but before doing so I wish to identify 
them as exhibits so that we can speak of them in those terms. 

Mr. Kriss. Okay. 

Mr. Hubert. Therefore, on the letter, or copy of a letter dated November 26, 
addressed to J. E. Curry, the original of which, I suppose, was signed by you, 
I am marking it for identification, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5106. 
Deposition of H. M. Kriss." I will put "reserve oflScer." I will sign my name 
to that, and I note that this Exhibit 5106 consists of one page only. The next 
document is a report of an interview made December 3, 1963, with you by the 
FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin and it consists of two pages. I am marking 
the first page, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5107. Deposition of 
H. M. Kriss." Or, rather, "reserve officer", and I am signing my name on the 
first page and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second 
page. Now, Mr. Kriss, you have read both of these statements I believe? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Are these substantially correct? 

Mr. Kriss. Substantially ; yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you have any additions to add to it? 

Mr. Kriss. I can't think of any. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you have anything that you see that is wrong that should be 
deleted? 

Mr. Kriss. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, then, in order that your testimony just now concerning 
these documents may be tied into the particular documents, I would like you to 
sign them so that the record will show that we are both talking about the same 
documents. 

Mr. Kriss. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Just write underneath my signature. 

Mr. Kriss. Well, do you have a pen? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes ; you can use that one. Just initial the second page. Now, 
sign — initial the second page on the FBI report. 

Mr. Kriss. You want me to sign ? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes ; just sign under my name. I think there is only one point I 
want to clarify about this matter. Are you familiar with the chart or map 
made by the Dallas Police Department of the basement area showing the posi- 
tions of all the various officers? 

Mr. Kbiss. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, in the report that they have filed, the documents relative 
to your statements, you are identified in that report as No. 61. As a matter of 
fact, attached to the map was a key, showing that 61 was H. M. Kriss. It 
shows, however, that you were standing, at the time of the shooting, in the 
north part, I suppose it would be, on the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Kriss. No. 

267 



Mr. HUBEET. And I notice that your statement says it was different. 

Mr. Kriss. No ; I wasn't. 

Mr. HxjBEBT. Even so, to clarify that, I would like you to see what this is so 
you can see what I am talking about. See your number on this key. This 61? 

Mr. Keiss. 61 ; yes. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Now, when you get to this map — see 61 on the Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Keiss. That is the Main Street ramp. That is where I was after — it 
was — that is where I placed myself when they said, "Don't let anyone out of the 
basement." 

Mr. Hubert. All right. That will clarify it then. 

Mr. Kriss. You can see it on television. I saw it the other night again 
where I ran across and when they said, "Don't let anyone out of the base- 
ment," that is where I placed myself. 

Mr. Hubert. I think that is going to explain that, and in order to make 
it a matter of record, I am going to ask you to show your position before the 
shooting, and your position after the shooting on this map, but first let me 
identify this map by marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5108, 
deposition of H. M. Kriss." I am signing my name to it, and I will ask you 
for the purposes of identification so that the record will show that we are 
both talking about the same document, to put your name right there. Now, I 
would like you to look over there at the mockup. And on the mockup, determine 
where you were. 

Mr. Kriss. That is Main Street — I was. right here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, let's see if we can find that on the map and mark it. It 
woud be right here, wouldn't it? 

Mr. Kriss. No; right over here [indicating]. Wouldn't it? No, here is 
the — wait a minute. Wait a minute. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, we get at this 

Mr. Kriss. This is Main 

Mr. Hubert. And this is Commerce Street. 

Mr. Kriss. Right. That is the jail right 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Mr. Kriss. Here is the position right here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. On the Commerce Street like that? I am drawing a circle 

Mr. Kriss. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. And I am drawing the line out then and I am putting, "Position 
of H. M. Kriss." 

Mr. Kriss. The four 

Mr. Hubert. Prior to the shooting? 

Mr. Keiss. That's right. 

Mr. Hubeet. Now, I noticed on the large map that was attached to the Dallas 
report that — and to the key to the personnel, your number was 61, and that 
they had 61 in the position I am now markinjr in a circle. Can you tell me what 
the explanation of that is, sir? 

Mr. Kriss. That is confusing, because after the shooting they hollered, "Don't 
let anyone out of the basement." And I saw the truck over here, so I ran over 
here and placed myself right here. 

Mr. Hubeet. Where this circle is. 

Mr. Keiss. Yes, right ; that is where I placed myself. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you are at this position, but it was after the 
shooting instead of before? 

Mr. Keiss. After the shooting. 

Mr. Hubeet. So, I am placing a circle of your position. 

Mr. Keiss. After the shooting. 

Mr. Hubert. And drawing a line from it and writing "Position of H. M. 
Kriss after the shooting." 

Mr. Keiss. Yes. 

Mr. Hubeet. Right. 

Mr. Kriss. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, about how long had you been in the position you were in 
before the shooting and until the shooting? 

268 



Mr. Kbiss. Well, we had been kind of walking over here watching the door 
over 

Mr. Hubert. When you say "over here" — — 

Mr. Kbiss. In the garage area. I had already put some men out here on 
both sides. 

Mr. Hubert. You had already put some men out here on both sides? Out on 
the Commerce Street side? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes, sir ; and on the Main. 

Mr. Hubert. And on the Main Street side. 

Mr. Kriss. And we were told by the officers to move all the press back over 
this way, keep them on this side [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, you see, you have to explain what you mean by "this 
side," because 

Mr. Kriss. Well, that is 

Mr. Hubert. Because someone reading a transcript of it later won't be able 
to tell. 

Mr. Kriss. That is the west side then. 

Mr. Hubert. West side of the ramp, is that correct? 

Mr. Kriss. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Do I understand you to say that you had been instructed to 
keep all the press 

Mr. Kriss. Yes, go ahead. 

Mr. Hubert. Out of the ramp area ? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes ; against the west wall only, all the rail — the area in here, 
to keep the press back over here and [indicating] 

Mr. Hubert. Against the rail, or on the side? 

Mr. Kriss. No; against the rail. If I just leave through — they were trying 
to clear this up right in here. 

Mr. Hubert. How long had you been in the position that we have marked 
"Position prior to shooting"? 

Mr. Keiss. Possibly 10 minutes. 

Mr. Hubert. Ten or fifteen minutes? 

Mr. Kriss. Something along there. Prior to that time, is when I had been 
walking right back in here [indicating]. Yes; and standing, I believe stand- 
ing right over in here is where I placed myself. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. I will put another circle and I am going to mark 
that "Position of H. M. Kriss prior" 

Mr. Kbiss. "To 

Mr. Hubert. "Shooting." 

Mr. Kriss. Before being told to move the press on this side. 

Mr. Hubert. "Position of H. M. Kriss prior" — 

Now, we have not — this is the west side. That is the east side — "of being 
told to keep the press back." In other words, your first position was really the 
position 

Mr. Kriss. Right here. That is it. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, let's put a number — No. "1" in it. That was your first 
position ? 

Mr. Kbiss. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. And yolir second position 

Mr. Kbiss. No. "2." 

Mr. HuBEET. As No. "2." "Position of H. M. Kriss prior to shooting." 
And No. "3" is yolir position after the shooting? Right? 

Mr. Kriss. That's it ; sir. 

Mr. Hubebt. Now, you say that you had been in position No. "2" for about 
10 minutes or so before they brought Oswald down? 

Mr. Kbiss. Yes. 

Mr. Hubebt. Which way were you facing then? 

Mr. Kriss. This way [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubebt. Facing north? 

Mr. Kriss. Facing north ; yes. 

Mr. Hubebt. Could you see anything up there? 

269 



Mr. Keiss. No; all I saw was oflBcers standing right at the head of this — 
this officer right there. With a shotgun. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know who he was? 

Mr. Kjuss. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Hubert. But he is a regular? 

Mr. Kriss. No reserves were armed. We are all unarmed. Unarmed and 
we don't carry arms. 

Mr. HuBEiRT. Now, in looking from your position No. "2." Up the ramp, 
were there — can you tell us whether there were a lot of people standing in 
that area? 

Mr. Kriss. No; I didn't. I was just — had lots of people right in this area, 
right about here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. You were talking about that northeast position? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes, sir; all this area right in here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. And where the down ramp going 

Mr. Kriss. All this area right on this side. That is where they were all 
standing. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, you can't say "this side," sir. While I understand it 

Mr. Kriss. The east side. The east side, excuse me. The east side. I keep 
forgetting she's taking it down. 

Mr. Hubert. They were all standing up against the rail? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Right by the television cameras. 

Mr. Kriss. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. Is that correct? 

Mr. Kriss. Right; that's right. 

Mr. Hubert. And then the ramp going from the basement down into the 
parking area? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes; right. 

Mr. Hubert. And further along toward Commerce Street along that rail? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes ; there was a truck there, large truck here and another car 
pulled up right behind the armored truck. 

Mr. Hubert. Both on the Commerce Street side? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Directing your attention again to whether there were a great 
number of people in an area that I am now marking with an oblong and going 
to call it "area A," and 

Mr. Kriss. That area there? 

Mr. Hubert. Well 

Mr. Kriss. Well, I couldn't be for sure, but it seemed that large amount 
people all around there and in here, too. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you notice an automobile being driven out of there just a 
few seconds or minutes 

Mr. Kriss. I can't recall that. I have tried to remember that and I can't 
recall that. No ; I can't recall that. 

Mr. Hubert. You don't recall it? 

Mr. Kriss. No; I can remember something vaguely. I can remember doing 
something — they were moving a car, but I was mostly interested in watching 
the press, keeping everyone here. That was my job, keeping everyone on the 
east side of the rail. 

Mr. Hubert. I understand, and you were looking more at the press than at the 
Main Street ramp? 

Mr. Kriss. That's correct ; that's correct. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see this man when he came down? 

Mr. Kriss. No ; I didn't see — all I saw was just a blur right in here [indi- 
cating]. I didn't .see — I was like everyone else, I was waiting here, and Oswald 
was right here [indicating], and that is where I looked at Oswald, and I was 
a curiosity seeker, I think, when I should have been watching — I was — learned 
my lesson. 

Mr. Hubert. Well 

Mr. Kriss. Like everyone else, everyone else was watching that. 

Mr. Hubert. So, your attention was on Oswald? 

270 



Mr. Kriss. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. And you saw a blur? 

Mr. Kriss. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize the man at all? 

Mr. Kriss. Right then? No. 

Mr. Hubert. Had you known Ruby? 

Mr. Kriss. Known, of him, saw him before in the papers and everything. 

Mr. Hubert. What did you do after that? 

Mr. Kriss. Well, they said — somebody said, "Don't let anyone out of the 
basement." And I ran across here and I thought I saw one of the captains, 
Arnett, and I saw him going down, and he was in the confusion and in that 
confusion here, and ran over there and saw that everything was all right, and 
they said, "Don't let anyone out." 

Mr. Hubert. And you positioned yourself right in the middle? 

Mr. Kriss. Positioned myself in the middle and no one passed thereafter. 
That I can assure you of. That is the only thing I do know for sure. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Let me see if there's anything else. 

All right. Is there anything else you would like to add that is not contained 
in the statement, or in your testimony today? 

Mr. Kriss. No, sir ; I just don't know a thing. 

Mr. Hubert. All right for now. Have you ever been interviewed by any mem- 
ber of the Commission's staff prior to today? 

Mr. Kriss. No ; only the FBI is all. 

Mr. Hubert. And you have never been interviewed by me prior to this depo- 
sition today? 

Mr. Kriss. No. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir. I think that is all and I certainly thank you very 
much. 



TESTIMONY OF ROY LEE LOWERY 

The testimony of Roy Lee Lowery was taken at 11 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in 
the oflSce of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post OflSce Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, 
Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's 
Commission. 

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Detective R. L. Lowery, Dallas Police 
Department. Mr. Lowery, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of 
the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the 
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Executive 
Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress 
No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance 
with the Executive order in the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take 
the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Lowery. I state to you now that the general 
nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon 
the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent 
violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, Mr. Lowery, the nature 
of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of 
Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the death and the 
general inquiry. 

Now, Mr. Lowery, you have appeared here today by virtue of a request made 
to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel on the staff 
of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, 
you are entitled to a 3-day written notice by the Commission prior to the taking 
of this deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that 
a witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Do you wish 
to waive the 3-day notice? 

Mr. Lowery. I will waive it. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

271 



Mr. LowEBY. I do. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Will you please state your name? 

Mr. LowEBY. Roy Lee Lowery. 

Mr. HuBEBT. And your age? 

Mr. LowEBY. Thirty-two years of age. 

Mr. HxjBEBT. Your residence? 

Mr. LowEBY. 838 West Church in Grand Prairie. 

Mr. HtJBEBT. Texas? 

Mr. LowEBY. Right. 

Mr. HxjBEBT. Is that just outside of the Dallas area ? 

Mr. LowEBY. Yes, sir ; it is in Dallas County. It is on the west side. 

Mr. HxiBEBT. What is your occupation, sir? 

Mr. LowEBY. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department. 

Mr. HuBEBT. How long have you been so occupied? 

Mr. LowEBY. Oh, approximately 9l^ years. 

Mr. HuBEBT. What specific position do you hold in the detective department? 

Mr. LowEBY. I'm a detective in the juvenile bureau of the police department, 
criminal division. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Who is your immediate superior? 

Mr. LowEEY. Capt. Frank Martin. 

Mr. HuBEBT. Who is next up the line? 

Mr. LowEBY. I believe it is M. W. Stevenson. 

Mr. HuBEBT. And then Chief Batchelor and Chief Curry ? 

Mr. LowEEY. Right. 

Mr. HuBEET. Now, I think you have read 

Mr. LowEEY. Now, if you will start with Mr. Bookhout's 

Mr. HuBEET. Let me get this report in. 

Mr. LowEBY. All right. 

Mr. HxjBEBT. I think you have read three documents which I have previously 
handed you to read, and I want to mark the three of them now for identification, 
and then we will talk about each one. 

Mr. LowEBY. All right. 

Mr. HuBEBT. I am marking a letter, or a copy of a letter consisting of one 
page, addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, indicating that the 
original may be signed by you, and I am identifying it as follows, by marking 
upon it, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5081. Deposition of R. L. 
Lowery, and signing my name below it." As to the second document, consist- 
ing of two pages, and purporting to be a report of an interview by — of you by 
FBI Agent Bookhout, on November 24, 1963, and I am marking that document 
along the right margin as follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit 
5082. Deposition of R. L. Lowery." I am signing my name below that on 
the first page of that document, and placing my initials in the right-hand lower 
corner on the second page of that document. Finally a document purporting 
to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Smith and Chapoton, on 
December 23, 1963, consisting of five pages, marking the first page as follows, 
to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. lExhibit No. 5083, deposition of R. L. 
Lowery," and I am signing my name on the first page, and placing my initials 
in the lower right-hand corner on the second page, third page, fourth page 
and the fifth page. 

Now, sir, I hand you the exhibit which has been marked 5081, being the letter 
to Chief Curry, and ask you if that letter is correct insofar as it goes? Or do 
you have any other comments to make about it? 

Mr. LowEBY. This is correct. 

Mr. HxjBEBT. Now, I hand you an exhibit identified as 5082, consisting of 
two pages, and ask you if you have read it, and whether you have any comments 
to make about it ? 

Mr. LowEBY. Yes, sir ; I read it. Now, as to this one there is some changes 
to be made. 

Mr. HuBEBT. All right. Now, I suggest you do this. If you want to make a 
change in a sentence, read that sentence indicating that you are beginning to 
read by using the word "quote", and when you get to the end of the sentence, 

272 



"unquote". Then make your comment about the sentence, or if you have the 
whole paragraph you may do it that way. 

Mr. LowERY. Well, first one, quote Lowery 

' Mr. Hubert. That is on the first page, is it not? What paragraph? 

Mr. LowERY. First page, first paragraph interview by Mr. Bookhout of the 
FBI. 

Mr. Hubert. You are going to start reading, so say "quote". 

Mr. LowERY. Quote, "Lowery stated he and several others grabbed Ruby," 
unquote. Now, I didn't — I didn't grab Ruby. Several other officers did. I 
didn't touch Ruby at all at that time. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell this man 

Mr. LowERY. No, sir ; I didn't. 

Mr. Hubert. That is incorrect? 

Mr. Lowe:ry. I do not recall — no, I touched Ruby later, but not at this 
particular time. This is the time where Ruby was disarmed and taken into the 
jail office. I didn't touch him at all at that particular time. There were 
several other officers around him. I couldn't even get to him. 

Mr. Hubert. When did you touch him? 

Mr. Lowery. He was carried into the jail office by several officers, and after 
coming into the jail office by myself, I held one of Jack Ruby's legs while he 
was given a quick shakedown before he was taken upstairs. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Have you any other comments to make about that 
Exhibit 5082? 

Mr. LowEatY. I don't believe that there is any others on this one. Yes. On 
Page 2, of this same exhibit — let's see, where could I start. Now, would you 
like me to start in the middle of a sentence, or just read the whole sentence 
even though it is several lines? 

Mr. Hubert. Perhaps you'd better read the whole sentence, I think it will 
be clearer. 

Mr. LowERY. All right, quote "He stated this camera was never put into 
operation, the cable was never connected and the blank cap was never taken 
off. Lowery stated that the following — that following the shooting, the action 
of the two cameramen who had pushed the camera from the area was brought 
to the attention of Lt. R. E. Swain, and they were taken to homicide and robbery 
bureau for questioning." unquote. The facts are, are that the cameramen were 
not taken to homicide and robbery bureau. I accompanied those men up on the 
third floor where they were allowed to set up their long range camera, and 
I stayed with those people for approximately an hour to an hour and a half 
until I contacted Lieutenant Baker in the homicide division and told him the 
reason that I was with those people, and he advised me to take their names and 
addresses, business address and business phone, and home phone number, and 
that it wouldn't be necessary to stay with them any longer. I took this informa- 
tion and turned it in to Lieutenant Baker and released the cameramen. 

Mr. Hubert. Anything else you wish to say about it? 

Mr. LowERY. I don't believe there is any other. 

Mr. Hubert. 5082. Anything other about 5082? 

Mr. LowEBY. No, that is — nothing further. 

Mr. Hubert. As to Exhibit 5083, i ask you if it is correct, do you have any 
changes or suggestions, or comments to make about it? 

Mr. LowERY. On page 1, paragraph 2 — let's see, "The contingent from the 
juvenile bureau consisted of Captain Martin, Lt. George Butler, Detective 
W. J. Cutchshaw, Detective L. B. Miller, Detective Charles Goolsby, Patrolman 
W. J. Harrison and myself, Lowery." 

The facts are that Captain Martin, Lt. George Butler, Detective W. J. 
Cutchshaw, Detective L. B. Miller, Detective Charles Goolsby went from the 
third — juvenile bureau, on the third floor, room 314, city hall, down the elevator 
to the basement of the city hall. As we came off the elevator we met Patrolman 
W. J. Harrison coming up the hall from the police locker room, and he accom- 
panied us to the location in the basement where Oswald was shot. 

Mr. Hubert. When you say, "city hall," you mean the police department 
building, not the municipal building? 

Mr. Lowery. No, sir. Police and courts building. 

273 



Mr. Hubert. All right, any further comments about Exhibit 5083? 

Mr. LowERY. Now, I have one change here. 

Mr. Hubert. On what page? 

Mr. Lowery. On page 2, paragraph 3. Now, this is the only thing, the only 
change is — I don't know whether it is necessary for me to read the whole thing — 
is the TV station WPAB. In this report it says, "WPAB". 

Mr. Hubert. It is a typographical 

Mr. LowERY. It is wrong. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes, that's correct, and now, I don't think we have to do any- 
thing more about it. 

Mr. LowERY. All right. Then, on page 2 in — let's see, this page 2, paragraph 
4, and this will carry on to paragraph 1 of page 3. All right. "This police 
car had its red lights on, flashing, and there were two or three officers in the car." 

That is a mistake. The facts are is this police car was a marked squad car, 
occupied by one oflScer, and that oflScer was Officer O'Dell, who is a patrolman, 
and as far as I can say, he was alone in the car. Only person in the car. All 
right. On page 3, this also is in paragraph 1. "He did not know who this 
individual was until his hat fell off in the melee and he saw it was Jack Ruby 
whom he has known for several years." 

The facts are that at approximately the same instant the shot was fired, or 
within a fraction of a second thereafter, I did recognize the person firing the 
shot as being Jack Ruby. 

Mr. Hubert. The correction there being that you recognized him before his 
hat fell off, is that what you mean? 

Mr. LowERY. Well, I couldn't definitely say that I recognized him before 
his hat fell off. I don't 

Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize him before he fired the shot? 

Mr. Loweky. Well, it seemed like to me at the same time. Now, of course, 
this hapi)ened directly in front of me, closer than — about half of the distance 
between the two of us and 

Mr. Hubert. Let the record show that the witness indicates the distance that 
I would judge to be approximately 6 feet. 

Mr. LowERY. Well, he would be within 4 feet, I think. That Jack Ruby 
would be within 4 feet of me. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you say that the distance that I judge is 6 feet, you 
think is about two-thirds of that distance? 

Mr. Lowery. That's right. Three to 4 feet, and I couldn't say that Jack 
Ruby's hat — I couldn't say whether the hat had fallen off or not. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. 

All right. Now, you have looked over the other pages of 5083, and handed 
it back to me, are there any corrections or deletions or — wrong statements or 
anything that you would like to comment upon? 

Mr. Lowery. Best I can remember the rest of it is fairly accurate. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I want to have you identify a chart of the basement area 
of the Dallas Police Department and I am marking upon it for the purposes 
of identification the words, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit Nxmiber 
5084, deposition of R. L. Lowery." And I am signing my name below that, and 
just for the purposes of identification, I wish you would sign your name below 
it, too, below my name. 

I would like you to look at the mockup here and — if you will come over here 
with me, we can put the chart and the mockup together, and I would like you 
to — by using the mockup, point to the place on the mockup where you were 
standing and then we will mark it on the map. 

Mr. Lowery. All right. I was standing exactly at this point here [indicat- 
ing]. In fact, the corner — I was leaning back against the corner, and I could 
feel it exactly between my shoulder blades. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, I am marking a circle right here as the point 
that you are talking about? 

Mr. Lowery. Yes, sir ; and that would be on the southwest corner. 

Mr. Hubert. Southwest corner of the intersection of the jail corridor and 
the ramp? 

Mr. Lowery. Yes, sir. 

274 



Mr. Hubert. I am marking a circle around the position you have indicated 
and I am writing the words, "Position of R. L. Lowery at the time of the shoot- 
ing," which I am also placing in a circle. Now, is that correct, sir? That was 
your position? 

Mr. LowERY. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, how long had you been in that position prior to the shooting? 

Mr. Lowery. Well, I couldn't definitely say how long I had been at that one 
particular position. I had been in this area for, oh, from approximately 10 
minutes. I had been within a few feet of there. I just took this position a few 
minutes, and — or maybe a couple of minutes before the shooting actually took 
place, but I was standing within a few feet of that point. 

Mr. Hubert. At the moment of the shooting, you were in precisely that 
position? 

Mr. LowERY. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And you would judge you had been in that position about 2 
minutes? 

Mr. LowERY. I don't believe it would be any more than 2 minutes' time. I 
don't know. 

Mr. Hubert. You were facing then in the general direction of the TV cameras? 

Mr. LowERY. Well, when the actual shooting took place. 

Mr. Hubert. And the time before that? I want to get both? 

Mr. LowERY. Well, I looked both ways, both left and right. 

Mr. Hubert. I'll ask you if you scanned the crowd? 

Mr. Lowery. Well, in the direction of the TV cameras, the lights were so 
bright I couldn't have seen any people in the crowd. I could see forms, but I 
couldn't — I wouldn't be able to 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a detective, W. J. Harrison, I think he is called 
"Blackie" Harrison? 

Mr. Lowery. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Was he in your line of vision? 

Mr. Lowery. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Could you see him? 

Mr. Lowery. I saw him shortly before the shooting. Now, at the time all 
the TV lights and everything were turned on, I don't recall seeing "Blackie" from 
that time until the shot was actually fired. 

Mr. Hubert. I wonder if you would use the mockup first to place the position, 
approximately, of Harrison, the last time you were able to see him, and then 
translate that by placing a circle on the map that 

Mr. Lowery. Let me get squared away here. He would have been in this 
general ar'ea. I couldn't say in relation to this wall — to this guardrail. I would 
think they would have been approximately 

Mr. Hubert. Well, I am going to mark a line, which I am labeling as line 
"A, B," and then I want to ask you to take the pen and put the approximate 
position of Harrison the last time you saw him. 

Mr. Lowery. Well. I would say about this [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, you have made an "X," and I am putting a circle about the 
"X," and drawing a line out and writing the following, "position of W. J. Harri- 
son — " the approximate position, is that what you mean? 

Mr. Lowery. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. "The approximate position of W. J. Harrison when last seen by 
Lowery." 

Mr. Lowery. Before 

Mr. Hubert. "Before the shooting." Right? 

Mr. Lowery. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. I am encircling that language and connecting it with the position 
marked "X." Now, can you give us any estimation of how long before the 
shooting was the last time that you saw Harrison? 

Mr. Lowery. No, sir ; I wouldn't make an attempt, because the time in my 
estimation I found that thev were so far off that I couldn't — I just don't have 
any idea. It couldn't haVe been more than a couple of minutes. 

Mr. HuBE3tT. All right; you did not see him after that, though, did you? 

Mr. Lowery. I saw him after the shooting. 

275 



Mr. Hubert. No ; I mean after that position? 

Mr. LowERY. As far as I remember, no, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Hubert. Then you attribute your failure to see him to the fact that the 
TV lights had been turned on after that? 

Mr. LowERT. Well, the TV lights were so bright. I don't remember seeing 
Harrison, but I don't say that I was completely blinded by the TV lights. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Ruby come up from the crowd? 

Mr. LowERY. Sir? 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Ruby come out from the crowd? 

Mr. LowERY. The first time I saw Ruby he was lunging, and almost instanta- 
neously the shot was fired, and I couldn't — I couldn't say that I saw him come 
from the crowd. I saw a blur, and about this time the shot was fired, and there 
is Jack Ruby right in front of me. 

Mr. Hubert. What side of "Blackie" Harrison did Ruby come from with rela- 
tion to Harrison himself? 

Mr. LowERY. I couldn't say which side that 

Mr. Hubert. You don't know whether it was on Harrison's left side or right 
side? 

Mr. LowERY. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the automobile that went up the ramp just 
before the shooting that had a fiashing red light on top of it and two or three 
oflScers in the car? 

Mr. Lowery. Well, now, that is one of the statements we changed. I remember 
the marked squad car being driven with Officer O'Dell going up the — oh, we 
call it the north ramp, the wrong way, which — with his red lights on, but this 
car only had the one oflScer in it, the best I remember. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Rio Pierce? 

Mr. Lowery. Yes, sir. 

Mr. HuBE^iT. Did you see him drive a car up that ramp? 

Mr. Lowery. I will say that between the time that Oflicer O'Dell went up the 
north ramp, I couldn't tell you in minutes or seconds how much time had elapsed, 
but there was a plain car, and I believe it was driven by Lieutenant Pierce, 
and he had a couple or three other officers. I couldn't say exactly how many 
oflBcers were in the car, but it did go up the ramp with red lights on going up the 
north ramp to the Main Street entraree. 

Mr. Hubert. That was after O'Dell had passed? 

Mr. Lowery. Yes, sir; best I remember. 

Mr. HuBiaiT. So, that the statement — I would ask you to have another look at 
the statement, which is Exhibit 5083, and ask you if it is the statement that 
you previously corrected so that it would refer to O'Dell. Isn't it, in fact, 
correct insofar as it would deal with what you have just said about Pierce? 

Mr. Lowery. Now, here is the statement we changed. 

Mr. Hubert. I see your point, and that is that the O'dell ear did not have a 
red light on it? 

Mr. Lowery. Yes, sir, it did, but the O'Dell was — the O'Dell car was a marked 
squad ear, and that was the change that we made. This O'Dell's car was the first 
car to go up the ramp, and he was — there was only one person in the car. 

Mr. Hubert. But, then, there was another marked car 

Mr. Lowery. There was an unmarked car. 

Mr. Hubert. There was an unmarked car, and that is Pierce? 

Mr. Lowery. Pierce was the unmarked car, and he had another oflSeer in the 
car. I couldn't tell you who, or how many, or who they were. 

Mr. Hubert. What was the time interval between the O'Dell car movements 
up that ramp and Pierce's movements up that ramp? 

Mr. Lowery. I couldn't — I couldn't — I'd be afraid to say exactly, but probably 
wasn't more than a minute in that. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you follow the car, or the Pierce car up the ramp with your 
eyes, I mean? 

Mr. Lowery. No, sir; if you will notice this [indicating] there is an offset 
here, and from my position here I would only see a short distance up the 
ramp, and there is also a drop down, air-conditioning and central-heating unit 
back in here that I would — if my view hadn't been obstructed by the line of people 

276 



on that side I wouldn't have been able to see more than a few feet up the ramp. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see anybody coming down? I understand from your 
statement that you could not have seen their faces as they came do^\'n the 
ramp because of the obstruction, but you could have seen feet, couldn't you? 

Mr. LowBaiY. I wouldn't be able to. I didn't see anybody come down the ramp. 
They could have possibly gotten down there without me seeing them, but I didn't 
see any feet, or any person come down the ramp at all. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see anybody climb over the rails from the parking area 
into the ramp on the Main Street side? 

Mr. LoWERY. No, sir; not that I remember. I couldn't see — couldn't see the 
rail from my position for the line of photographers and officers and the TV 
cameras and lights. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you have occasion to talk to Ruby thereafter? 

Mr. LowERY. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him after that? 

Mr. LowERY. Which point? 

Mr. Hubert. After the shooting? 

Mr. Lowb:ry. Well, as I told you, the officers took him into the jail office, and 
I went into the jail office, and they were in the process of searching him, and 
he was struggling, and I held one — I believe his left leg. Had him down on his 
back, and I held his left leg while he was doing a quick shakedown and then 
he was taken to the elevator and upstairs, and that is the last that I saw of him. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Detective Lowery, have you anything else that you 
would like to add that you have not stated, or is not contained in these several 
exhibits we have identified here today? 

Mr. LowERY. Well, I think they — I haven't been through the police report, the 
investigation in the police department made by Captain Jones. I believe that 
they had — a little more in detail. 

Mr. Hubert. You are referring, I think, to a document contained in Commis- 
sion's report 81-A, that is page 66, consisting of two pages and entitled, "In- 
vestigation of Operational Security Involving the transfer of Lee Harvey 
Oswald, November 24, 1963," which was supplied to the Commission by the 
Dallas Police Department through the attorney general. 

Since I do not have an extra copy of this document, I am going to allow it to 
remain in the volume, but I am going to mark it for identification as I have 
marked the others, and that is, "Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964, exhibit Number 
5085," which purports to be an interview of you. Now wait — I'll finish the 
identification, 5085, deposition of R. L. Lowery, signing my name on the first 
sheet and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second sheet. 
This is an interview of R. L. Lowery, November 29, 1963, by Lt. P. G. McCaghren 
and Lt. C. C. Wallace. I think you have read this document, have you not, sir? 

Mr. Lowery. Let me brush through it right quick. I don't 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Referring to Exhibit 5085, do you now say that it is 
correct? Are there any changes you want to suggest, modifications to make? 

Mr. Lowery. It is correct, as far as I know. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. Anything else you want to say? 

Mr. LowE^RY. No, sir ; I believe that's 

Mr. Hubert. Now, have you been interviewed prior to the taking of the depo- 
sition by any member of the Commission? I don't think there was any inter- 
view between you and me before. 

Mr. Lowery. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir. Thank you very much. 



TESTIMONY OF CAPT. FRANK M. MARTIN 

The testimony of Capt. Frank Martin was taken at 2 p.m., on March 24, 1964, 
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the 
President's Commission. 

277 



Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Capt. Frank M. Martin of the juvenile 
division, Dallas Police Department. Captain Martin, my name is Leon D. 
Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general cf)iinsel of the 
President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under 
the provisions of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint 
resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Com- 
mission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have 
been authorized by the Commission to take the sworn deposition of you. Captain 
Martin. 

Captain Martin. Uh-huh. 

Mr. Hubert. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's in- 
quiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassina- 
tion of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey 
Oswald. In particular to you. Captain Martin, the nature of the inquiry is to 
determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other per- 
tinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry. 

Captain Martin. Uh-huh. 

Mr. Hubert. No ; Captain Martin, do — you have appeared here by virtue of a 
general request made by the general counsel on the staff of the President's 
Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry. Under the rules adopted by the 
Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of 
this deposition, that the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a 
witness may waive the 3-day written notice. Do you wish to waive that notice? 

Captain Martin. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, will you rise and raise your right hand and I will now swear 
you. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Captain Martin. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. State your full name. Captain Martin. 

Captain Martin. Frank M. Martin. 

Mr. Hubert. Your age, please? 

Captain Martin. Fifty-four. 

Mr. HUBEHiT. Where do you live? 

Captain Martin. 906 West Five Mile Parkway. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation today, and how long have you been 
in that occupation? 

Captain Martin. I am a police officer in Dallas. I have been in it for 30 
years. 

Mr. Hubert. Your rank is what now? 

Captain Martin. Captain. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you held the rank of captain, sir? 

Captain Martin. Since 1951, about 13 years. 

Mr. Hubert. What are your particular duties with the Dallas Police Depart- 
ment? 

Captain Martin. I have charge of the juvenile bureau. We handle all juve- 
nile affairs. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, captain, I have two documents here which I am going to 
mark for identification and then I will question you concerning them. Now, I 
am marking this document March 24, 1963, addressed to Chief J. E. Curry, the 
original of which apparently was signed by you. Marking this as follows, to 
wit : "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5058, deposition of Capt. F. M. 
Martin, and I'm signing my name to that document which consists of one page, 
and I'm also marking another document which apparently is the report of an 
interview of you. Captain Martin, by Special Agents of the FBI, to wit : Alvin J. 
Zimmerman and Joseph G. Peden, on December 2nd, 1963." The document 
consists of one full page, marking the first page as follows, to wit : "Dallas, Texas, 
March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5059. Deposition of F. M. Martin." Signing my 
name on that. I am placing my initials on the second page of that document 
in the lower right-hand comer. Now, Captain, I believe that you have only 
recently, that is to say, about 2 or 3 hours ago, had occasion to read both of these 
documents? 

Captain Martin. Yes. 

278 



Mr. HuBEKT. 5058 and 5059. I now ask you if those documents represent 
the truth, or whether there are any modifications or deletions or additions 

Captain Martin. Well, of course, there 

Mr. Hubert. That you would like to make in it? 

Captain Martin. This "Miller," they have there once, where it should be 
my name in the first paragraph. 

Mr. Hubert. I think you are speaking of the third line, the first page of 
Exhibit 5059, where the second sentence starts, "Capt. Miller," and apparently 
the sense of it would be, that since they are speaking of you, it would be "Capt. 
Martin," is that right? 

Captain Martin. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. I am, therefore, going to circle the word "Miller," and — with 
a circle, and an extension line indicates that it had been changed by putting 
my initial on it, and I am going to ask you at a later time to put your initials on 
it, too. 

Captain Martin. All right. 

Mr. Hubert. Other than that, that document speaks the truth, as far as you 
know? 

Captain Martin. Yes. There is one area in there in the ramps that I don't 
quite imderstand. Did he mean the ramp, or does he mean the door into the 
building, the corridor door or 

Mr. Hubert. Now, then, I think you are speaking of the second to the last 
sentence in the last paragraph on the first page of Exhibit 5059, sentence which 
reads as follows, to wit: "He advised that auxiliary oflBcers were stationed at 
each ramp." 

Captain Martin. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. "And that to his north, this was the only entrance to the, com- 
pound which Ruby could have used." Now, what is it that you would like to 
say about that, sir? 

Captain Martin. There is a double door going into this basement at the city 
hall which I wouldn't consider a ramp. They never considered it that. I don't 
know, but it is more or less a corridor, or hallway going into the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. There is a corridor, you say, that leads from the jail building 
into the basement area? 

Captain Martin. It is from the garage area into the basement. 

Mr. Hubert. I see. 

Captain Martin. I don't know 

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, did you make any statement to them about auxiliary 
officers being stationed at any place? 

Captain Martin. Yes. Yes; I told them that there were, but I meant the 
two ramps coming into the basement from the outside. 

Mr. Hubert. I see. In other words, what you want to clarify about this 
is that what you meant when you made reference to auxiliary officers and ramps, 
that you meant the entrances or exits at the street level of the Main and Com- 
merce ramps? 

Captain Martin. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. And, you did not have reference to the officers at other passage- 
ways? 

Captain Martin. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. I might ask you in connection with that same thing, 
what do you mean by the word "compound"? 

Captain Martin. I didn't use that. 

Mr. Hubert. Didn't use that word? 

Captain Martin. No ; that must be theirs. 

Mr. Hubert. What do you understand there, because the report is that you 
said "That this was the only entrance into the compound which Ruby could 
have used"? 

Captain Martin. I didn't use that word. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, did you express any such thought and if so, what were 
you referring to? 

Captain Martin. Of course, what they are referring to by "compound," is 
the area right outside the jail door there. 

279 

731-228 0—64 — vol. XII 19 



Mr. Hubert. You mean what is commonly called the basement area including 
the parking area, the garage area, the two ramps and the space between the 
two ramps? 

Captain Martin. I am sure it is, because I didn't use the word "compound." 

Mr. Hubert. Let's look at it this way, would this statement be correct then 
if we changed the word "compound," to be defined as the general basement 
area as I just defined it a moment ago? 

Captain Martin. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. So, then it would be correct to say that, to your knowledge, the 
two ramps, to wit, those— the one leading from Main Street, and the one leading 
from Commerce Street were the only entrances to the basement area, as we 
defined it a moment ago, that Ruby could have used? 

Captain Martin. More that he could have used, yes ; but, of course, you 

Mr. Hubert. Of course, this says the only entrance, and if you wish to qualify 
it 

Captain Martin. We were speaking of these two ramps. And we were talk- 
ing of him coming down into the basement off the street. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes, sir. 

Captain Martin. Of course, you have got the city hall. I mean, the jwlice 
and courts building, and also got the city hall. He could have been — come down 
the elevator over here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. I take it you want to modify this statement then so that your 
present opinion is that it is not correct to say that the Main Street and the Com- 
merce Street entrances were the only mode of entrance to the basement? 

Captain Martin. No, no ; there are other ways to get in there. 

Mr. Hubert. That is what I mean. What other ways are there? 

Captain Martin. There is — coming from the police and courts building to 
the basement, or you can come down the elevator in the city hall into the garage 
area and come across, but as far as I remember, that wasn't brought up. They 
were speaking of those two ramps. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, let me ask you this : Was the explanation that we have 
now put into the record, are you satisfied that this document, 5059, is sub- 
stantially correct? 

Captain Martin. I don't know exactly what he means here by "He knew of 
no unauthorized persons to be in the basement." 

I don't know what 

Mr. Hubert. Well, sir ; if you wish to modify that in any way so that we now 
know what you are thinking is about it, I ask you to please do so. 

Captain Martin. I don't quite — that is not very clear to me, "He knew of no 
unauthorized persons permitted to be in the basement." 

Mr. Hubert. Let me get at it this way. Do you know what security precau- 
tions were being taken to be sure that unauthorized persons were not in the 
basement? 

Captain Martin. Yes ; they had men at the top of both of the outside ramps, 
and I presume that they were supposed to stop anybody coming in, but ap- 
parently they didn't. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you know what was meant by "unauthorized persons"? 

Captain Martin. Well, there were so many people down there. The press, 
TV, radio. Of course, all had been checked before they came in. I don't know. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you receive any specific instructions, yourself, as to checking? 

Captain Martin. I didn't receive any instructions at all. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you know, or was there anything told to you whereby you 
could recognize an unauthorized person? 

Captain Martin. Nothing was said. Of course, if I'd had seen Jack Ruby, I'd 
have known him. I've known him for a long time. 

Mr. Hubert. Did any of the people have identifying badges or anything of 
that sort? 

Captain Martin. No ; so far as I know, they didn't. In fact, there was noth- 
ing — there was nothing said about who was to be down there and who wasn't. 
There was nothing said about anything — I didn't know anything about it. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, when did you come on duty that day, sir? 

Captain Martin. That morning, it was my Sunday to work, 8 :15. 

280 



Mr. Hubert. Now, did you have anything to do with the planning of the 
movement of Oswald? 

Captain Martin. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any knowledge as to what the plan was? 

Captain Martin. I knew nothing. I just went down there. That's about it. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you ordered to go down? 

Captain Martin. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. By whom? 

Captain Martin. Chief Stevenson. 

Mr. Hubert. About what time, sir? 

Captain Martin. Oh, I would say between 10:30 and 10:45, somewhere 
around there. 

Mr. Hubert. Chief Stevenson is your immediate superior? 

Captain Martin. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. What did he instruct you to do? 

Captain Martin. Just to go to the basement is all. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any specific duty to perform? 

Captain Martin. No. 

Mr. Hubert. When you got there, what time was it? 

Captain Martin. I don't recall. It was a few minutes before 11, I believe. 

Mr. Hubert. What did you do? 

Captain Martin. Well, I just got out there by the ramp and just stood there. 

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stand before the actual shooting of Oswald? 

Captain Martin. I imagine I was down there 20 or 25 minutes. 

Mr. Hubert. I'm going to mark a chart. A chart of the basement area, as 
follows, to wit : '-Dallas, Texas, March 24, Exhibit 5060, deposition of Capt. F. M. 
Martin." Signing it with my own name. Now, I would like to ask you. Captain, 
if you could sign the other three documents just below my name, that is to 
say, 5058 and 5059. Please initial a second page of 5058, below my initial and 
then sign 5059. I will ask you to sign for the purposes of identification under 
my name the document 5060. Now, Captain, it may be that you will want to 
look at this mockup here of the basement area, and then we will enter it on 
the map, but if you could show us where you stood on the mockup here, from the 
time you got down there at about 11, I think, until Oswald was shot, and you 
say you did not move around? 

Captain Martin. I wasn't in one spot all this time, but when he came out, 
of course, there was a car sitting right — I guess the back end of the car was 
coming to about here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, now, you are showing the back end of the car, and 
I am going to, with a pen draw in on Exhibit 5060, the approximate position 
of the back end of the car as you demonstrated it. 

Captain Martin. Be about right there [indicating]. No; not that far. 
About right here. 

Mr. Hubert. About like so? 

Captain Martin. Uh-huh. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, I have drawn on the map a rough image of a car, by using 
simply a square, and I have marked it "car". Now, would you take the pen, 
sir, and — your own pen, and mark by the use of a circle your position with 
reference to the car at the time of the shooting. Now, let's get that. 

Captain Martin. I was about right here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, would you just write in your own handwriting there, "The 
position of F. M. Martin at the time of the shooting." Now, Captain, you think 
you — you said you had been in that general basement area for about 20 minutes 
prior to the shooting? 

Captain Martin. I would say that. I don't know for sure. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see anybody you knew? 

Captain Martin. Well, most of the press I knew. No one outside of the 
press that I knew. 

Mr. Hubert. You did know Jack Ruby, I understand? 

Captain Martin. Yes ; I knew Jack. 

Mr. Hubert. And I think, that is already in report? 

Captain Martin. Yes ; it is in here. 

281 



Mr. Hubert. Did you see him? 

Captain Martin. Not until after the shooting. 

Mr. Hubert. Were you looking at any time in the direction where you sub- 
sequently learned or believed he came from ? 

Captain Martin. No ; not directly. Of course — Where is your map? I couldn't 
have seen him from — -if I would have been, because there were people all along 
here [indicating] - 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, to your right, is that right? 

Captain Martin. Yes; across here [indicating]. And all up in here [in- 
dicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. There were people between — on your right, between you and 

Captain Maetin. And 

Mr. Hubert. And the Main Street ramp? 

Captain Martin. Right. 

Mr. Hubert. How many people were there in that general area ? 

Captain Martin. I just would have to make an estimate. 

Mr. Hubert. That's right. 

Captain Martin. I would say between me and where he was, there was 8 or 
10 people. 

Mr. Hubert. I'm going to mark off an area in the Main Street ramp by just 
drawing with a pencil a square, and putting, "Area A," in it and I will ask 
you if you can tell us in the "Area A," marked on this map, what were the 
conditions with respect to the number of people and so forth. Not exactly. 
I know you didn't count heads, but just how crowded were the conditions? 

Captain Martin. As well as I can remember there weren't too many people up 
in that — up that far. There were 2 or 3 cars parked in the ramp there. 

Mr. Hubert. You mean in the Main Street ramp? 

Captain Martin. Now, wait a minute. You have got Main Street 

Mr. Hubert. I marked this as "Area A," on Main Street? 

Captain Martin. No, no ; across this ramp there, there was quite a number 
of people. 

Mr. Hubert. That is in the space I have marked "Area A"? 

Captain Martin. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Roughly how many people? 

Captain Martin. Oh, I'd say 15 or 20. 

Mr. Hubeet. Were they standing shoulder to shoulder? 

Captain Martin. Yes ; more or less. 

Mr. Hubert. How many ranks deep would you think? 

Captain Martin. I don't know. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, would you regard it as a crowd? 

Captain Martin. Yes ; I would. Mostly the press. There were some oflBcers 
in that area also. 

Mr. HuBEaiT. I think this Officer Harrison was 

Captain Martin. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him? 

Captain Martin. Yes, yes ; he — he is one of my men. He was standing, oh, 
just about at the edge of the ramp there. 

Mr. HuBEKT. Would you mark on the map by the use of a circle where you 
think Harrison was at the time? 

Captain Martin. Harrison was about right here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. That is at the time of the shooting? 

Captain Martin. Yes ; uh-huh. 

Mr. Hubert. Would you just extend this with a little line and then write out, 
"Position of" — what are his initials? W. J.? 

Captain Martin. W. J. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, Captain Martin, let me see if I can get something clear. 
Was Detective Harrison in front of Oswald, or to one or the other sides of him ? 

Captain Martin. This happened so fast it is really hard to tell. 

Of course, Oswald and the two officers came out this door. 

Mr. Hubert. That is the jail door? 

Captain Martin. Yes. 

Mr. Hubekt. When they got just about, oh, 2 or 3 feet from Harrison, there 

282 



was a movement over here [indicating]. I couldn't tell what it was. I could 
tell there was a movement. 

Mr. Hubert. By "over here," you mean 

Captain Martin. On the ramp. 

Mr. Hubert. What side of the ramp? The basement — the garage? 

Captain Martin. The garage. The garage side. Evidently Ruby was standing 
right here [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, when you say "here," you'd better put a mark and put a 
little arrow to it, your best recollection as to where Ruby must have been. You 
didn't see Ruby? 

Captain Martin. No, no; this is just supposition. He had to be right in here 
somewhere. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, just put a mark and a line and indicate where 
he was. 

Captain Martin. I didn't see him, but he had to be right there [indicating]. 
There is no question about that. 

Mr. Hubert. You did see someone come from that position? 

Captain Martin. It was a movement. I didn't see anybody, but there was 
a movement in there that I could detect, and then the shot was fired. 

Mr. Hubert. What did you write here? 

Captain Martin. "Ruby before the shooting." Or, "immediately before." 

Mr. Hubert. All right, just tell us what you observed? 

Captain Martin. Well, as soon as the shot was fired, of course, it dumbfounded 
me, and I tried to get through the people there on my right, to get over there 
to it, and there was a lot of confusion in there, and I had trouble getting through 
the press, and when I did get through they had already taken Ruby into the 
jail oflBce and Oswald was also in the jail oflBce. Ruby was down on the floor 
just inside the jail, and Oswald was lying on the north side of the jail oflBce. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, when Oswald first came out of the jail office with 
Graves and Leavelle, were you looking at him? 

Captain Martin. I saw him come out. Now, whether it was — it was shortly 
after they come out — I saw him after the shot was fired. 

Mr. Hubert. You were looking towards him? 

Captain Martin. Yes ; I thought they were coming all around me and go up 
by me and go up to the armored car, that is what I had in mind. 

Mr. Hubert. You were not aware that the plans had been changed so that 
they — he was going to be taken in a police car, rather than in the armored car? 

Captain Martin. No ; I didn't know anything about it. 

Mr. Hubert. But, did you know anything about the route that was going to 
be used? 

Captain Martin. No, as far as I knew, tJiey were going to put him in the 
armored truck. That is the reason I was standing there, because I figured 
they would come right back there and I could go up there with them, but they 
didn't ever make it. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you observe what other officers were doing, or in what 
direction they were looking about the time that Oswald came out? 

Captain Martin. No; I didn't personally observe it, except on TV later. At 
the time I didn't notice them. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, at the time that Oswald came out, you were 
looking where — you were looking towards Oswald, and if I understand it, you 
are not in a position to tell us now what other people were doing except what 
you saw later on television, is that right? 

Captain Martin. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, now do you have, any comment about what you saw on — 
later on television? 

Captain Martin. Well, it seems that all the officers were watching Oswald 
when they should have been watching the crowd. 

Mr. Hubert. But, that impression you formed by looking at the television 
coverage of it? 

Captain Martin. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. And, you did not form that impression at the time the shot was 
fired? 

283 



Captain Mabtin. No ; I hadn't noticed them then. In fact, I was over where 
I couldn't see them. 

Mr. Hubert. When was the first time that you did recognize Ruby as the man 
who shot Oswald? 

Captain Martin. When I went in the jail oflBce. 

Mr. Hubert. You didn't know it until then? 

Captain Martin. No ; I saw him on the floor. Then I heard somebody say it 
was Jack Ruby, and I went in there and saw him. 

Mr. Hubert. Did he say anything to you? 

Captain Martin. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear him say anything at all? 

Captain Martin. There was so much going on, I don't know whether he said 
anything or not. First thing I heard was somebody said, "He has been shot." 
And then there was confusion. I don't know who said that. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you have occasion to talk to Ruby at any time thereafter? 

Captain Martin. No, no. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, Captain Martin, is there anything else you would like to 
say concerning any aspect of this matter at all? 

Captain Martin. I — don't take this down. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, if you don't want to say it on the record, you'd better not 
say it at all. 

Captain Martin. There is a lot to be said, but probably be better if I don't 
say it. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, I don't know what you mean by 

Captain Martin. Well 

Mr. Hubert. That it would be better. What we are seeking to find out is the 
facts on it. 

Captain Martin. I understand. 

Mr. Hubert. If what you have to say is more or less a matter of opinion, that 
is one thing. I don't want to ask you to express your opinion, but any facts 
you know that you think might bear upon this matter, I would ask that you 
state those facts. 

Captain Martin. Well, there is not but one thing that I could say about the 
■whole business. Of course, we are not experienced in handling this sort of a 
prisoner. I don't guess anybody is, as far as that goes, but the way I saw it, 
there was no organization at all. I didn't know who was in charge or anything 
about it. I don't guess anybody — either people should have been told some- 
thing — what to do and what to expect. We weren't 

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir. Have you any other facts that you think have any 
bearing upon 

Captain Martin. No, no ; I don't think so. I think it is more or less in that 
report there [indicating]. 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, you are talking about the documents you have 
identified? 

Captain Martin. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, other than the interview that I had with you this morning, 
have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff? 

Captain Martin. No, no. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, but I did interview you this morning just prior to lunch, 
I think at which time we arranged for you to come to have your deposition taken. 

Captain Martin. Yes. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you perceive at the present time any inconsistency between 
the interview with me this morning and your testimony in the deposition this 
afternoon? 

Captain Martin. No, no. It is about the same. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you state anything, or provide any material, state any facts 
in the course of the interview this morning which has not been developed in the 
record this afternoon? 

Captain Martin. I don't recall anything. If there is any you can think of, 
you can ask me and I will bring it out, but I don't recall a thing. 

Mr. Hubert. No, sir ; I don't. I am just obliged to ask these questions to wrap 
it up. 

284 



Captain Martin. Uh-huh. 

Mr. Hubert. We certainly thank you, Captain Martin, and I thank you -per- 
sonally and on behalf of the Commission for your cooperation in this matter. 
If at any time, if you know that there are some other facts that you may have 
overlooked, please feel completely free to get in touch with us so that we may 
find out what that fact may be. In other words, it is never too late to reveal 
a fact which has been omitted as a lapse of memory. 

Captain Martin. I don't know of a thing right now. 

Mr. Hubert. Thank you very much. 



TESTIMONY OF BILLY JOE MAXEY 

The testimony of Billy Joe Maxey was taken at 9 :30 p.m., on March 25, 1964, 
in the oflSce of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay 
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the Presi- 
dent's Commission. 

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of — is that Billy Joe Maxey? It is not 
William? 

Sergeant Maxey. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Billy Joe Maxey? 

Sergeant Maxey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory 
staff of the general counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, on the President's Commission 
on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Ex- 
ecutive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress 
No. 137, and the rules and procedures adopted by the Commission in conformance 
with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take 
a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Maxey. I state to you now that the general 
nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon 
the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent 
violent death of Lee H. Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Maxey, the nature 
of the inquiry today is to determine the facts you know about the death of 
Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. 
Mr. Maxey, you appeared here by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee 
Rankin, general counsel of the Staff of the President's Commission, and under 
the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of these depositions, you 
are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition. But 
the rules also provide that a witness may waive this. I now ask if you are will- 
ing to waive it? 

Sergeant Maxey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Sergeant Maxey. I do. 

Mr. Hubert. Please state your full name. 

Sergeant Maxey. Billy Joe Maxey. 

Mr, Hubert. And your age? 

Sergeant Maxey. Thirty-three. 

Mr. Hubert. Where do you reside, sir? 

Sergeant Maxey. 8912 Freeport Drive. 

Mr. Hubert. That in Dallas? 

Sergeant Maxey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation? 

Sergeant Maxey. Field sergeant, Dallas Police Department. 

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been with the Police Department? 

Sergeant Maxey. Nine years, and approximately a half. Since September 20th, 
1954. 

Mr. Hubert. What is your assignment today? 

Sergeant Maxey. Field sergeant, patrol division. 

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Mr. Hubert. Is that the same assignment that you had during the period of 
November 22 and 24, 1968? 

Sergeant Maxey. Yes, sir. I was acting lieutenant on that particular day. 
Number 16. 

Mr. Hubert. What does that mean, "Number 16"? 

Sergeant Maxey. That is the call from the northeast substation. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any particular orders or functions with respect 
to the transfer of Oswald to the county jail? 

Sergeant Maxey. No, sir ; not before I arrived at the central station. 

Mr. Hubert. What time did you arrive there? 

Sergeant Maxey. Somewhere in the vicinity of 11 a.m. I am not positive of 
the exact time. 

Mr. Hubert. What sort of an automobile were you driving then ? 

Sergeant Maxey. A plain car, black 1963 model Ford. 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, unmarked? 

Sergeant Maxey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Where were you coming from? 

Sergeant Maxey. Northeast substation. 

Mr. Hubert. Had you been ordered in? 

Sergeant Maxey. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. How did you come to get there then? 

Sergeant Maxey. I had some cards to be taken to 511, where there were 
requests for off-duty employment, overtime work and I thought perhaps I might 
be able to assist them. I knew they were going to need all the help they could 
get down there that day. 

Mr. Hubert. You had not been ordered down there? 

Sergeant Maxey. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What did you do with your car? 

Sergeant Maxey. I parked it on the north end of the garage. 

Mr. Hubert. Then what did you do? 

Sergeant Maxey. I approached Putnam. They were dispersing some traffic 
officers or some officers who worked traffic. They weren't in the traffic division, 
they were patrol officers, and asked him at this time if there was anything 
I could do, and he said, that if I would wait a few minutes I could probably 
go hop in Sergeant Dean's station wagon. I — he didn't elaborate, and I stayed 
there in the basement there for a few minutes. I don't know exactly how long 
and Lieutenant Pierce came down and Sergeant Putnam spoke to me, and said, 
"Why don't you go with us?" And I approached Lieutenant Pierce's car and 
he was in this — he was in his car at this time and asked him if he wanted 
me to go with him and he said, "Yes." 

Mr. Hubert. You were in uniform, I take it ? 

Sergeant Maxey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. So, what happened? 

Sergeant Maxey. So, I got into the back seat of Lieutenant Pierce's car. 
We started to drive out and Sergeant Putnam had to move some reporters back. 

Mr. Hubert. How many were there? 

Sergeant Maxey. I would say in the vicinity of 35. That is a guess, of course, 
I have no way of knowing. 

Mr. Hubert. That is the Main Street ramp? 

Sergeant Maxey. At the — that was at the bottom of both ramps, down right 
outside the jail door, and part of the people were blocking the Main Street 
ramp where we were going to make a turn and go out. 

Mr. Hubert. So, he cleared them out and the car followed behind him? 

Sergeant Maxey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what time it was, about, when he left? 

Sergeant Maxey. Well, now, at that time, I wasn't noticing the time, but since 
all this happened 

Mr. Hubert. Well, I don't want you to state what knowledge you have gained 
since, because we can get at that other ways. 

Sergeant Maxey. Well, at that time I thought I had been in the basement 
approximately 10 or 15 minutes. 

Mr. Hubert. And you got there at 11 o'clock ? 

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Sergeant Maxey. Somewhere in the vicinity. 

Mr. Hubert. So, you would think that it would be around 11:15, or 11:16? 

Sergeant Maxey. Somewhere thereabouts. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, where were you seated in the car? 

Sergeant Maxey. On the left .side in the back seat. That is the left side 
facing the way the automobile faces. 

Mr. Hubert. What did you observe when you got to the top of the ramp? 

Sergeant Maxey. The best I can remember when we pulled to the top of the 
ramp and paused, I was looking across Main Street. There was a group of 
people, a bus or something that attracted my attention — whatever it was I — 
it didn't amount to much. 

Mr. Hubert. Was that to your left, or to your right? 

Sergeant Maxey. That was 

Mr. Hubert. Straight ahead? 

Sergeant Maxey. Almost straight ahead. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, when you got to the top of the ramp, did the car stop? 

Sergeant Maxey. I believe there was a momentary hesitation. I don't recall 
how long. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see OflScer Vaughn? 

Sergeant Maxey. I didn't pay any attention to him on the way out. Now, on 
the way in, yes. 

Mr. Hubert. That is to say when you were coming at 11 o'clock, you saw him? 

Sergeant Maxey. Yes, sir. I didn't pay any attention to him on the way out, 
as I say, I was looking across the street. 

Mr. Hubert. You don't recall having seen him at all? 

Sergeant Maxey. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you look to your right down Main Street in the direction 
of Pearl? 

Sergeant Maxey. I don't believe so. I don't remember if I did. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you look to your left down Main Street in the direction 
of Harwood? 

Sergeant Maxey. I don't believe so. 

Mr. Hubert. In other words, your position is you didn't look either way? 

Sergeant Maxey. I don't believe I did. 

Mr. Hubert. Therefore, you didn't see anybody on either side? 

Sergeant Maxey. No. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, when you got around to the Commerce Street side had 
the shooting already taken place? 

Sergeant Maxey. Yes, sir ; I suppose it had, because as we — correction — as 
the Lieutenant backed our car into position in front of the armored car, I 
heard the dispatcher call an ambulance code 3, to the basement and officers 
were rushing around, covering exits to the city hall, so apparently it happened 
just before we arrived. That had given them time to call the dispatcher 
by phone for an ambulance, would be my guess that we were on Harwood 
Street at the time that it happened. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any further connection with the event? 

Sergeant Maxey. We went to Parkland. Lieutenant Pierce, Sergeant Put- 
nam, and I went to Parkland Hospital and set up security out there. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk with Jack Ruby at anytime? 

Sergeant Maxey. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Do you know the man? 

Sergeant Maxey. I know him slightly. I know him by sight. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him in the ramp at anytime while you were 
driving up? 

Sergeant Maxey. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him at anytime that day at all, at any place? 

Sergeant Maxey. No, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, I am marking now three documents as indicated. This is 
a document, apparently a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief 
J. E. Curry, the original of which is signed by you, and two pages. I am 
marking the first page, "Dallas, Texas, Exhibit — March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5094, 
from the deposition of B. J. Maxey," and signing my name below that on 

287 



the first page, and I am putting my initials on the lower right-hand corner of 
the second page and I'll ask you to be reading that while I mark the second 
document, which is a reix>rt of an FBI interview of December 6, 1963, taken 
of you by FBI Agents Quigley and Dallman and I am marking that document, 
"Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 5095. Deposition of B. J. 
Maxey." I am signing my name, Leon D. Hubert underneath, and marking 
the second page of that document by my initial in the lower right-hand corner. 
The third document, I am marking in the margin, right-hand margin, "Dallas, 
Texas, March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5096. Deposition of B. J. Maxey," and sign- 
ing my name Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am marking the second page of that docu- 
ment with my initials in the lower right-hand comer, and the third page with 
my initials in the lower right-hand corner. I will ask you to read these two 
documents likewise, and I wish to ask you some questions about them. 

Sergeant Maxey. As far as the report here written to the chief, I would 
say that it is accurate at the time that I wrote it, and I am willing to sign it 
as is, and I — what page was it you wanted me to sign here? 

Mr. Hubert. Just under my name. 

Sergeant Maxey. All right. 

Mr. Hubert. Initial the second page. 

Sergeant Maxey. All right. 

Mr. Hubert. All right, noiw, you can turn to the next exhibit, which is 

Sergeant Maxey. The FBI report. There are two of them there. I believe 
both of them are the same, aren't they? Wait a minute. One of them 
might possibly be a supplement. 

Mr. Hubert. No ; they are different. One is on the 2d of December and the 
other is on the 6th, so, you'd better separate them. Do you have any com- 
ments to make on them? 

Sergeant Maxey. One of the things that I was going to bring up here, 
changes has been made in this one already, this second one. 

Mr. Hubert. Well, let's see, we are talking about Exhibit 5095. 

Sergeant Maxey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hubert. What comment do you wish to make? 

Sergeant Maxey. In the first report it was stated in there that the FBI report 
of December 3, I believe 

Mr. Hubert. 2d. 

Sergeant Maxey. 2d? 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Sergeant Maxey. And the report of December 2, Exhibit 5096, it was stated 
that I saw ex-police ofllcer Daniels and shoeshine boy at the end of the Main 
Street ramp. That was incorrect. I did not. That was hearsay. I heard 
that from other oflScers. I did not see them myself. 

Mr. Hubert. And, as a result of that error you then called the FBI and told 
them you wished to correct that, is that correct? 

Sergeant Maxey. No, sir ; they came back out there. 

Mr. Hubert. They came back out and said what? 

Sergeant Maxey. And asked me some more questions regarding the shine boy. 
They ask me then did I recall the time and I know at the time I talked to them 
the first time I told them several things that I didn't see myself. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes. 

Sergeant Maxey. I told them things that I had heard and what have you, and 
I tried to differentiate between what I could actually testify and what I couldn't 
at this time he was talking to me. 

Mr. Hubert. Your present recollection is what then? Which is correct? 

Sergeant Maxey. My present recollection is that I didn't see Daniels. I 
didn't see the shine boy. 

Mr. HUBB31T. And that the information that you did give about seeing Daniels 
and the shine boy in the earlier depositicm — I mean the earlier statement to the 
FBI, which is contained in Exhibit 5096 was erroneous in that you had not really 
seen them, but you had heard people talk about them? 

Sergeant Maxey. That's right. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, in all three statements, however, 5094 and 5095, and 5096, 

288 



you stated then that you did see Officer Vaughn and yet, as I recall your testi- 
mony this evening you said that you did not recall having seen Vaughn. 

Sergeant Maxey. At the present time I don't, but those were written up close 
to the time all this happened, and I haven't seen one of those reports since, and 
lots that I don't remember right now that I remembered then, I am sure. 

Mr. Hubert. That's correct, and that's why I wanted you to correct this 
apparently contradictory statement. 

Sergeant Maxey. That's true, I understand that. 

Mr. Hubert. Because, we don't want to have the record, if we can, to have 
conflicts in it. 

Sergeant Maxey. Neither do I, I can assure you. 

Mr. Hubert. So, your statement is that you can't swear tonight that you saw 
Vaughn there? 

Sergeant Maxey. No ; I can recollect at the time, how — at the time I was ques- 
tioned about Vaughn, the main thing they wanted to know about him at that time 
was how far he had walked from his position to the curb. Whether he walked 
to the curb or out into the street which I didn't know. 

Mr. Hubert. And right now your mind is blank on Vaughn altogether, I take it? 

Sergeant Maxey. Actually, yes. I wasn't — right now I couldn't say. 

Mr. Hubert. Now, has anybody asked you to change your statement? 

Sergeant Maxey. No, uh-huh, so far as that goes, I haven't. 

Mr. Hubert. Have you spoken to anybody about it? 

Sergeant Maxey. As far as that goes I haven't talked to anybody about the 
statement. 

Mr. Hubert. You have talked to anybody about the possible conflict in your 
statement? 

Sergeant Maxey. Uh-uh. 

Mr. Hubert. I don't know how that comes out on the machine. I suppose you 
mean "no" by that. 

Sergeant Maxey. No ; no. I'd like to say this : That as far as the con- 
flicting statements are concerned, the only reason a person would have for get- 
ting together and getting his story straight would be to have something to hide, 
and I want it. known right now. I have nothing to hide, and I want it on the 
record. 

Mr. Hubert. Yes, sir ; it is on the record. This is not an effort to cross you 
up in any way. 

Sergeant Maxey. I realize that. 

Mr. Hubert. But, you realize that these statements do exist, and the purpose 
of this deposition, among other things, is to determine the real facts, and when 
you run into a conflict like this, unless we ask for explanations we do not get a 
clear picture. 

Sergeant Maxey. That's true. 

Mr. Hubert. All right. I want to ask you again if you have any