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HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY

GIFT OF THE

GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES

?5r >

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— Part 1

HEARINGS

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIYES

EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

JUNE 27 AND 28, 1955

Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INDEX IN PART 4 OF THIS SERIES)

HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY

DEPOSITED BY THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

'uCT31 1955

UNITED STATES
GOVERNIHENT PRINTING OFFICE
65500 WASHINGTON : 1955

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES

United States House of Representatives
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois

CLYDE DOYLE, California BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York

JAMES B. FRAZIER, JR., Tennessee DONALD L. JACKSON, California

EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio

Thomas W. Bealb, Sr., Chief Clerk
n

CONTENTS

Part 1

June 27, 1955: Testimony of — Page

Paul Wright Orr 1440

Afternoon session:

Andries Deinum 1474

Anita Bell Schneider 1498

June 28, 1955: Testimony of —

Angela Clarke 1 523

Cecil Beard 1538

Diamond Kim 1543

Afternoon session:

Diamond Kim (resumed) 1565

Sue Lawson 1572

George Hugh Murray Maitland Hardyman 1575

Part 2
June 29, 1955: Testimony of —

George Hugh Murraj^ Maitland Hardyman (resumed) 1599

Raphael Konigsberg 1656

Afternoon session:

Sylvia Schonfield 1668

Jean Wilkinson 1676

Frank C. Davis 1679

Irene B. Bowerman 1689

Carl Sugar 1697

Part 3
June 30, 1955: Testimony of —

Matthew Samuel Vidaver, Jr 1707

William Elconin 1713

William Ward Kimple 1731

Afternoon session:

William Ward Kimple (resumed) 1742

Max Benjamin Natapoff 1761

Tashia Freed 1764

Max Appleman 1768

Joseph W. Aidlin 1771

Part 4

July 1, 1955: Testimony of —

Stephen A. Wereb 1779

Afternoon session:

Stephen A. Wereb (resumed) 1811

James Burford 1827

Anne Pollock 1837

Margaret Vaughn Meyer 1844

July 2, 1955: Testimony of —

Stephen A. Wereb (resumed) 1851

John Waters Houston 1860

Harrv Hay 1872

Martha Hard Wheeldin 1875

Louis Stark 1882

Robert L. Brock 1889

Index. (See pt. 4 of this series.)

Public Law 601, 79th Congress

The legislation under which the House Conunittee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Rule X

SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
*******

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.

Rule XI

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.

(A) Un-American Activities.

(2) Tlie Committee on Un-American Activities, as a wliole, or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any
necessary remedial legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House of the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.

RULES ADOPTED BY THE 84TH CONGRESS

House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955

*******

Rule X

STANDING COMMITTEES

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress,
the following standing committees :

* * * 4: « * *

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
****** m

Rule XI

POWEBS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES

17. Committee on Un-American Activities.

(a) Un-American Activities.

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to malie from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
<2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop-
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attaclis the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpeuas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— PART 1

MONDAY, JUNE 27, 1955

United States House of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,

Los Angeles^ Calif.
public hearing

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 9 : 50 a. m., pursuant to call, in room 518, Federal Building, Los
Angeles, Calif., Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.

Committee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle (chair-
man), Morgan M. Moulder, Donald L. Jackson, and Gordon H.
Scherer.

Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, counsel, and William A.
Wheeler, investigator.

Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will please be in order.

I have a statement I vrish to read, a copy of which has been fur-
nished to the press. Let the record show that the Honorable Francis
E. Walter, chairman of the Committee on Un-American Activities,
House of Representatives, pursuant to provisions of Public Law 601,
79th Congress, establishing this committee, duly appointed Represen-
tatives Morgan M. Moulder, of Missouri, on my right ; Donald L. Jack-
son, of Los Angeles County, Calif., who is first on my left ; next is Gor-
don H. Scherer, of Ohio, who is on my extreme left ; and myself, Clyde
Doyle, of Los Angeles County, Calif., as a subcommittee, with myself
as subcommittee chairman, to conduct these hearings.

The full subcommittee is present.

The Committee on Un-American Activities is one of the standing
committees of the House of Representatives and is composed of only
nine members. Each member of this committee is also a member of
one other major congressional committee. Since the workload of this
committee is so constant and heavy, it has been found necessary to
divide the committee into subcommittees when the work undertaken is
away from Washington, D. C. The Congress of the United States has
imposed upon this committee by Public Law 601 the duty of investiga-
tion of the extent, character, and objects of un-American propaganda
activities in the United States, the diffusion within the United States
of subversive and un-American propaganda that is instigated from
foreign countries or is of a domestic origin, and which attacks the

1437

1438 communtist activities in the los angeles, calif., area

principle of the form of government as guaranteed by the United
States Constitution, together with all other questions in relation
thereto, which would aid the United States Congress in establishing
necessary remedial legislation on the subject.

In the discharge of this duty of this subcommittee in this current
hearing, the committee proposes to make further inquiry regarding
Communist Party activities emanating from this and other areas
which may be calculated to advance the Communist conspiracy and
to extend its influence and power.

Preliminary investigation by our staff has indicated Communist
Party membership of certain individuals occupying administrative or
policymaking positions in certain organizations.

It is the purpose of this subcommittee to inquire as to the possible
existence of a Communist Party plan or conspiracy to place its niem-
bers in such important positions, the objectives sought to be obtained
and the extent of such practices.

It is also the purpose of the committee to inquire as to the extent,
character, and objectives of the Communist Party activity in Los
Angeles County during periods and at places not fully covered by
previous testimony heretofore taken by this committee in Los
Angeles.

The information obtained at this hearing should better enable the
United States Congress to legislate more ably and comprehensively
on the subject of communism and any other subversive activity.

The committee has devoted much time in the past few years to the
investigation of the subject of communism and has endeavored to keep
Congress well informed of the extent, character, and objectives of
the Communist conspiracy within our great Nation as an aid to es-
tablishing remedial legislation to meet the problem.

In the performance of this huge task, the House Un-American
Activities Committee in its reports to Congress has made 48 recom-
mendations for new legislation or for the strengthening of existmg
legislation designed to aid in the fighting against tlie Communist sub-
versive conspiracy. All but 4 of tliese 48 reconnnendations heretofore
and already made by the House Un-American Activities Committee
have already been enacted into law in one form or another.

The committee wants it understood that in the conduct of this hear-
ing from now until Friday it is not interested in any dispute between
management and labor or between one labor union and another labor
union? Neither is it interested in the internal affairs of any labor
union.

It proposes, however, to investigate to the full hmit of its ability
and resources and jurisdiction Communist Party activities of any
person as to whom reliable information is in our possession, and which
indicates Communist Party affiliation and activity by that individual
or by that group of individuals, whether that he in the field of labor
or in any other field, and regardless of who the person or group of
persons may be.

This is oiir bounden duty under Public Law 601. It is the standing
rule of this committee that in the event testimony or evidence is ad-
duced in the course of the committee hearings disclosing Communist
Party membership on the part of any individual, that individual if
he desires shall be afforded an early opportunity to appear before this

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1439

committee under oath for the purpose of denying or explaining any
such testimony offered.

This is ])art of the American way of doing right and seeing justice
done. If such a person desires during these hearings, he should com-
municate promptly with a member of the committee staff.

I desire to make it clear that the fact that a lawyer appears before
this committee as legal counsel for a witness should not in any way
be taken as any disparagement against that lawyer for so doing. The
committee always invites legal counsel to be present with the witness.
However, for the benefit of counsel who have not heretofore appeared
before this committee, may I state there is a limitation on the privi-
lege that legal counsel has before this committee. This limitation has
been found to be necessary in actual practice.^

The committee is not a court of law and it does not follow strictly
the rules of court procedure. The presence of counsel is permitted
and encouraged for the purpose of advising the witness as to his
constitutional rights. Counsel is not permitted to make oral argu-
ments or to address the committee. We want the witness' testimony
and not that of the lawyer. Therefore, we have the right to expect
and I know every ethical member of the bar will observe this rule, to
confine his advice to his client to matters involving the client's con-
stitutional rights and not to endeavor to put testimony in the mouth
of the witness.

I would remind those present in this hearing room that we are here
at the direction of the Congress of the United States to discharge an
important function of our Federal Government, that has been assigned
to this committee under Public Law 601, 79th Congress. You are
here, and we are glad you are, by permission and by invitation of this
committee. I trust you will conduct yourselves always as guests of
this committee. A disturbance of any kind or any audible comment
or display during the course of testimony, whether favorable or un-
favorable to any witness or to the committee, will not be tolerated.
For any infraction of this necessary rule the offender will be immedi-
ately removed from the room and may not be allowed to return.

I trust it is necessary only to call this matter to your attention that
it will not be necessary to have to repeat it.

There will be no television under the rules of the House as inter-
preted by our distinguished speaker, Sam Eayburn. There will be no
radio from this room, there will be no mechanical recording during
the taking of the testimony for public use. The only photographs that
may be permitted under the rules shall be taken by the press or others
as still shots and they must be taken either before or after a witness
testifies.

I am sure the press will understand that we will cooperate with them
and they will with us in every possible way.

Voice from the Floor. Why is the Columbia Broadcasting System
taking the tape over here ?

Mr. DoYLE. You heard my announcement. The Columbia Broad-
casting System is not broadcasting from this room.

Voice from the Floor. They are taking the tape down.

Mr. DoTLE. There has been no testimony yet, has there, sir?

Voice from the Floor. I just asked the question.

Mr. DoTLE. We would prefer not to be interrupted. We made a
rule and it will be abided by. The recording being made is being made

1440 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

for the benefit of the committee by the Armed Forces. Is that under-
stood?

I might state because the law allows the witness a fee for testifying
before this committee under subpena, any witness desiring that fee
may promptly go, after his testimony is over, to the clerk at the left,
and she will make arrangements so that eventually you will get your
fee.

I might state that to my right is Mr. Tavenner from Washington,
D. C, our legal counsel of our committee for several years. At his left
is Mr, Wlieeler, of California, our chief investigator in the West.

Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.

I would like to call as the first witness Mr. Paul Wright Orr. Will
Mr. Orr come forward, please ?

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Orr, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Orr. I do.

Mr. Doyle. Please be seated.

TESTIMONY OF PAUL WEIGHT ORR, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

A. L. WIRIN

Mr. Tavenner. State your name, please, sir.

Mr. Orr. Paul Wright Orr.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Orr ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. May I ask why that is necessary ?

Mr. Doyle. You are directed to answer the question. Witness. It
is a foundation question for the purpose of identity and other legal
purposes, which I think your counsel surely recognizes as an appro-
priate question.

Mr. WiRiN. Counsel does not recognize it as an appropriate question.

Mr. Doyle. Just a minute.

Mr. WiRiN. If 5^ou make observations about me I insist on the right
to reply. If you make personal observations about me and my opinion
I want the turn to state my opinion. May I ?

Mr. Doyle. You have heard the rules of the committee read.

Mr. WiRiN. I have, and I am thoroughly familiar with them.

Mr. Doyle. Don't begin to make a speech, please. Let's have a
common understanding.

Witness, we believe it is an appropriate question to ask. You are
instructed to answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. Born in Walnut, Kans., January 22, 1904.

Mr, Tavenner. "Where do you now reside?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. 2312 Glenrose Avenue, Altadena.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your in-
formal educational training has been ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, Orr. Do you want college education ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes,

Mr. Orr. I have my B. A. from Stanford.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1441

Mr. Tavenner. When did you receive your B. A. degree ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ore. 1925. And my master's from Columbia.

Mr. Tavenner. When did you receive your master's ?

Mr. Orr. 1928.

Mr. Tavenner. I failed to have counsel identify himself for the
the record. Will you please do so now ?

Mr. WiRiN. My name is A. L. Wirin. I am an attorney of Los
Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession, Mr. Orr, or your occupa-
tion?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I am the supervisor of a biology stockroom.

Mr. Tavenner. Where?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. It doesn't seem to me that has any bearing on legislation.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Wirin. He has not yet completed his answer. May we have
just a moment ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes, Mr. Wirin.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer on the ground that it isn't a pertinent
question.

Mr. Scherer. I renew my request that the witness be directed to
answer the question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question. We believe it is
pertinent and germane.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. Under coercion of the committee, I state that I am working
at the California Institute of Technology.

Mr. Ta\^nner. How long have you been employed there ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer on the ground that the question isn't
pertinent.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.

Mr. Doyle. We believe it is pertinent, Witness, and we instruct you
to answer.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. Under coercion of the committee I will reply.

Mr. Doyle. May I state. Witness, you are not under coercion. I
make that clear.

Mr. Wirin. I am advising him that he is.

Mr. Doyle. I am not talking to you, Mr. Wirin.

Mr. Wirin. But I am here, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. Jackson. I would suggest he not be here much longer if he in-
terrupts the committee in its operations. I think we have been emi-
nently fair to you, Mr. Wirin. Certainly I shall make every effort to
be courteous but you know very well the rules of this committee so far
as addressing remarks to the committee is concerned. I think it is a
reasonable request and one that is easy to meet. You will receive,
certainly, from the hands of the committee every courtesy which you

1442 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

yourself extend to the committee. I shall certainly move in case of any
additional outburst that counsel be

Mr. WiRiN. There has been no outburst. Please don't exaggerate.

Mr. Jackson. Exaggeration in most instances usually comes from
that side.

Mr. WiRiN. May we proceed ?

Mr. Jackson. As far as coercion is concerned, he has and should
know he has every right to decline to answer upon legal grounds. No
coercion is being brought against him to answer. He is under no com-
pulsion to answer. He can decline to answer and state why. That is to
make the record clear, to make it clear to anyone who is not versed in
the tactics we meet with so that everyone will understand that no
coercion is employed by this committee to make a witness answer any
question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show also,
which it does not disclose up to this point, that following every ques-
tion asked by counsel so far in the examination of this witness, he has
conferred at length with counsel.

Mr. WiRiN. May I ask if that is improper ?

Mr. Jackson. You may not ask if it is improper as far as I am con-
cerned. Your client may ask.

Mr. Orr. I ask if that is really proper.

Mr. Jackson. You may consult for any reasonable length, but I
think the gentleman is quite right in saying it is at undue length so
far as the question of when and where the witness was born is con-
cerned. That scarcely takes 5 minutes to decide whether it is in-
criminating to answer or not.

Mr. ScHERER. I did not say it was improper. The cold record fails
to disclose the lengthy conversations between counsel and witness. All
I want the record to show is that he has had ample opportunity, not
only ample opportunity, but a longer time than is necessary, to consult
with counsel to answer the simple questions asked him.

Mr. Doyle. You are directed to answer the question previously
asked you.

Mr. Orr. I still think I am uijder coercion from the committee.

Mr. DoYLE. You are directed to answer the question previously
asked. Manifestly, you are not under coercion of any kind.

Mr. Orr. Would you read the question, please.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed in your present
position ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. A little over 2 years.

Mr. Scherer. I would like the record to show it has taken the wit-
ness 2 seconds to answer this question after conversing with counsel
for that period.

Mr. Doyle. The record will show.

Are you ready, Mr. Witness, to answer ?

Mr. Orr. I answered it. A little over 2 years.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you.

Mr. Tavenner. What was your employment prior to your employ-
ment at California Institute of Technology ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1443

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis that it violates
my rights under the first and fifth amendments of the United States
Constitution.

Mr. DoTLE. You are instructed to answer the question, Witness.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer tliat on the grounds that I mentioned
previously.

Mr. Doyle. You understand my direction and instruction, do you,
Witness, that you are instructed and directed to answer that question ?

(The witness conferred with liis counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I stand on my rights as guaranteed by the United States
Constitution.

Mr. Doyle. Proceed.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles or its
immediate vicinity ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. In the neighborhood of 4 years.

Mr. Tavenner. Does that mean 4 consecutive years ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. Four years at the present period and 6 years altogether.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. You have lived here, then, continuously from ap-
proximately 1951 to the present time, and then you lived in Los
Angeles approximately 2 years at some earlier date ?

Mr. Orr. That is correct.

Mr. Tavenner. What was that earlier date ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. It was in the late thirties.

Mr. Tavenner. Can you be more definite as to what years in the
late thirties?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. Approximately the summer of 1938, for 2 years.

Mr. Tavenner. Where did you then reside?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the first
and fifth amendments.

Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer.

Mr. Scherer. Do you feel that or do you claim that to answer the
question as to your residence at that time would tend to incriminate
you ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I feel that it might tend to incriminate me and I therefore
stand on the first and supplemented by the fifth amendment.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question. It is very reason-
able and very pertinent and proper, we believe.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Doyle. Let me make it clear I am directing you to answer the
question.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question based on the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Doyle. Again I direct you to answer that question. I want the
record to show there is no misunderstanding on your part, that you
are directed to answer that question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

1444 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Orr. I have already indicated my answer.

Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed in Los Angeles during the
period from the summer of 1938 for the next 2 years?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the basis of my rights under
the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Scherer, May I ask a question?

Mr. Doyle. Yes.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. WiRiN. What is the situation?

Mr. Tavenner. You gave a direction to the witness to answer and
I do not believe he has complied.

Mr. Orr. I refuse under my right under the first and fifth amend-
ments.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you have a question, Mr. Scherer.

Mr. Scherer. What was the last question?

Mr. Tavenner. My question was in substance this : What was your
■employment during the period you were in Los Angeles for 2 years
beginning in the midsummer of 1938.

Mr. Scherer. Do you feel, witness, to answer such a question rela-
tive to your employment might tend to incriminate you?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I wish to make it clear that

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. Yes, I feel that it might tend to. I feel that the fifth
amendment also protects the innocent as well.

Mr. Scherer. Now was this employment in itself an employment of
an illegal nature?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the ground of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Scherer. It w^isn't an employment prohibited by law, was it *

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I think that is just the same question and I refuse to

answer that. -mt xtt.l

Mr. Doyle. I direct you once more to answer the question, Mr. Wit-
ness, so there will be no misunderstanding of what the fact is.

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the basis of my rights under
the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. Where did you reside between 1940 and 1941 when
you returned to Los Angeles ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I consider that question not pertinent and I refuse to
answer it on the mentioned grounds.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.

Mr. Doyle. Witness, you claimed a legal residence, we fail to see
how it is anything less than pertinent. You are instructed to answer
the question.

(The wit ness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Scherer. Or how it could possibly incriminate him.

Mr. Wirin. May I confer with my client without remarks from the
committee so I can hear everything going on ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1445

Mr. ScHERER. The record should show the witness has conferred at
length anywhere from 10 to 20 seconds.

Mr. WiRiN. Am I being prohibited from consulting with my client ?

Mr. ScHERER. I have a right to show in the record which will not
show unless I call it to the attention of the record, the length of con-
sultation after each question.

Mr. WiRiN. I want to earn my fee as much as I can.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. It still seems to me that this line of questioning is not
pertinent and I refuse on the basis of the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Doyle. Again, so there will be no misunderstanding in the rec-
ord, I direct you to answer that question as manifestly in our judg-
ment it is a pertinent and very reasonable and a proper question.

Mr, SciiERER. May I add because it is the committee's opinion that
he is not properly invoking the fifth amendment, because we cannot
possibly see how where he resided would incriminate him or tend to
incriminate him.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ScHERER. We feel if he does that — it is my feeling at least — he
would subject himself to contempt.

Mr. Orr. I still stand on my rights under the United States Consti-
tution, the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Orr, did you reside in the city of San Francisco
prior to your coming to Los Angeles in the latter 1930's ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer on the basis that it is not pertinent and
on the basis of my rights under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I am not satisfied that this is a proper
use of the fifth amendment. I want the record to show that I also
ask that the witness be instructed to answer.

Mr. ScHERER. And that it is the feeling of the committee he would
be guilty of contempt if he refuse to answer the question.

Mr. DoYLE. May I ask the record show that the witness claimed his
privilege in answer to the last question after consultation with his
distinguished counsel.

Now I direct you to answer that question. Witness.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse tliat also, on tlie basis of my rights under the
United States Constitution, first and fifth.

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to the State of California?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I also refuse to answer that question on the basis of per-
tinency and my rights.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, that is quite obviously a question
that is proper and within the purview of the committee. It could not
conceivably be incriminating to give the date of his arrival in the
State of California. As an individual member of the committee
I am not satisfied that this is a proper use of the fifth amendment, and
I ask that the witness be instructed to answer the question.

Mr. Doyle. I wish to say I agree with you, I think it is a very im-
proper use, ridiculous claim of privilege in my judgment. I direct you
to answer that question. Witness.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

1446 COM]VIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. "WiRiN. I have advised him that he may exercise the privilege.
You are casting reflection upon me.

Mr. Doyle. No reflection on you. You stated you want to earn
your fee as far as possible and we understand that. That is all right.
It is no reflection on counsel. I intended no reflection on any legal
counsel that ethically appears before the committee, but you have
heard the observations of the individual members of the committee
and I want to suggest, Mr. Wirin, again, that when you made that
statement we believe it is a violation of the committee's rules. I am a
lawyer, as you know, and I want to extend every courtesy, but please
don't make a record that appears in violation of the committee rules,
because I will have to manifest my authority in the committee.

Do you understand that you were directed to answer the simple
question of when you first came to California? How in the world
could it possibly incriminate you to tell the United States Congress
when you first came to California ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. It is true, Mr. Chairman, it has been the policy of the
committee that the reporter at all times makes a notation of consulta-
tion with counsel without reference by any member of the committee
to that fact.

Mr. Doyle. That is right.

Mr. Wirin. May I ask — I don't want to confer with him while you
are talking. If you are through talking, I will confer with him, if that
is lefjitimate.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I consider that not a jDcrtinent question and that it might
tend to incriminate me, and therefore I take my stand on the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you return to the State of California immedi-
ately after the receipt of your degree at Columbia University ? I be-
lieve it was in 1928 ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the ground that it isn't pertinent
to any legislation and also based on my rights previously mentioned.

Mr. SciiERER. I ask that the witness be directed to answer the ques-
tion and again state that in my opinion it is not an improper question.

Mr. DoYLE. I direct you to answer that last question. Witness.

(The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Orr. Again I have stated my position.

Mr. Doyle. I think the record should show for the information of
the witness, who manifestly doesn't need it, because he is being advised
by legal counsel as to his rights, but the position of the committee is
that it is incumbent and proper upon us as a committee to make clear
to the witness that he is directed to answer the question. That we
believe an answer to the question is essential so that if later we wish
to proceed on the basis of his refusal, if he does refuse, it can be made
to appear in the record as coming after he has been expressly directed
to answer the question.

We do that for two reasons : First in fairness to the witness so that
he will understand the position of this committee of Congress that we
believe it is a pertinent and a proper question.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1447"

Along with that is the fact that we believe it is necessary and proper
to do so that if we desire to cite any witness who appears before us for
contempt of Congress, that it will appear clearly in the record that the
witness understands that he is directed and expected by the commitee
to answer that question. So that it is in justice to the witness and in
accordance with law as we understand it, that the witness understands
clearly that he is expected to answer that question.

Mr. ScHERER. May I make one additional observation ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes, Mr. Scherer.

]Mr, Scherer. You direct the witness to answer also because it is the
feeling of the committee that he is improperly invoking the use of the
fifth amendment, and that in doing so he might subject himself to
possible contempt.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you for adding that, Mr. Scherer.

I might state this : that on occasions in the course of some hearings
we believe that some witnesses have not only improperly claimed the
constitutional privilege, but have used it in a frivolous manner, delib-
erately to obstruct the purpose of a congressional hearing.

Mr. Jackson. May 1 ask a question ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes, Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. It is understood by the committee generally that in
all instances where the witness has been directed to answer that the
reason for that direction was the unwillingness of the committee to
accept the witness' claim of the privilege of the self-incrimination,
clause of the fifth amendment ?

Mr. Scherer. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. I certainly so understand it. Do you understand, Mr.
Moulder, that is the reason he is directed ?

Mr. Moulder. I will concur with the statements made by Mr. Jack-
son, by yourself, and by Mr. Scherer. However, what has been stated
here should not be considered as in the spirit of a threat or coercion
upon the witness. It is purely made in advising him and advising him
for his own protection.

Mr. Jackson. And has been made necessary by recent findings and
the committee is simply carrying out the directions spelled out in
detail by the Supreme Court.

Mv. Doyle. That is correct.

Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me, Mr. Orr, a photostatic copy of the
July 19, 1032, issue of Soviet Enssia Today. I find reported there an
article entitled "National Minorities in the U. S. S. R. and the United
States," by Paul Orr. I would like to read one paragraph from that
article ajDpearing over the name of Paul Orr.

In the Soviet Union no worker is regarded as an alien. Foreign-born worliers
employed there become citizens with full rights. The Soviet Union is not a
melting pot. It is a union of nations and races rich in cultural diversities and
customs. The 183 nationalities in the U. S. S. R. are bound together by a union
impossible in a capitalist country. The Soviet Union has become the hope and
the inspiration of all subject races and colonial peoples, the fatherland of the ex-
ploited and oppressed of all the world.

Mr. WiRiN. May we see the document, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. I am going to hand it to him.
(Document handed to witness.)

65500— 55— pt. 1 2

1448 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., A1\EK

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the document and the paragraph
which will be pointed out to you which I have just read and state
whether or not that paragraph ^ as composed by you ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer tliat question on the basis of the first and
fifth amendments, first and supplemented by the fifth amendment.

Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer the question, Witness.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I stand

Mr. Doyle. I withdraw that direction for the time.

Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. The author of this paragraph contained in the
article over the name of Paul Orr to which I have referred, indicates
some special knowledge of conditions in the Soviet Union.

Were you ever in the Soviet Union ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the previously men-
tioned grounds.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever traveled abroad ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the same basis that I
mentioned previously.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion as to whether he has ever traveled abroad.

Mr, Doyle. I direct you to answer the question whether or not you
have ever traveled abroad.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the first and then
supplemented by the fifth amendment.

Mr. WiRiN. Mr. Chairman, can you hear me when I whisper to him?

Mr. Scherer. I can.

Mr. WiRiN. You are in our camp so it is all right.

Mr. Scherer. I have been looking this way, Counsel, but I can still
hear you.

Mr. WiRiN. Is my voice being amplified sufficiently ?

Mr. Scherer. Not amplified.

Mr. Tavenner. It has been indicated to me from something said
behind me that possibly your remarks to the client may be heard on
the recording system. I merely suggest to you that you take that into
consideration.

Mr. WiRiN. Thank you, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the photostatic copy of the article
from Soviet Russia today in evidence and ask that it be marked for
identification only as "Orr Exhibit No. 1."

Mr. Doyle. May I have the year of that, the date ?

Mr. Tavenner. July 19, 1932.

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Moulder.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Tavenner, what publication was that?

Mr. Tavenner. Soviet Russia Today.

Mr. Moulder. What book or publication did it appear in ?

Mr. Tavenner. It is a magazine.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1449

Mr. Moulder. There is a publication by that name ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Moulder. Is it still published ?

Mr. Tavenner. It has been until recently. I don't know whether
it is right at this minute or not.

I have before me the September 1932 issue of Soviet Russia Today,
or at least a photostatic copy of page 16. There I note the following :

San Francisco, 1179 Market Street: Comrade Paul Orr reports that the FSU
has its ramifications in 14 towns and cities including 1 shop branch in San
Francisco. Work of the FSU there has its ups and downs but a defiuite upward
swing is expected soon. Formation of branches as well as the activities proper
will take on definite shape and will bring more and better results as the senti-
ment against war and for recognition of the Soviet Union is growing not alone
among the workers, but among the farmers of California as well.

I hand you the document and ask you whether or not the report
referred to and recited there was made by you.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer this on the basis that I have mentioned
previously.

Mr. Tavenner. What is meant by the initials "FSU" ?

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that ?

Mr. Ta\^nner. Isn't it Friends of the Soviet Union ?

Mr. Orr. I stated that I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you officially connected with the Friends of
the Soviet Union in 1932 ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ore. I refuse to answer that on the grounds I have mentioned
previously.

Mr. Tav'enner. Are you now connected or affiliated in any way,
with the Friends of the Soviet Union ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. That also I refuse to answer on the mentioned grounds.

Mr. Ta\-enner. I desire to have the document marked for identifica-
tion only as "Orr Exhibit No. 2."

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received.

Mr. Ta^^nner. I have before me a photostatic copy of page 13 of
the January 1933 issue of Soviet Russia Today in which I find the
paragraph stating or entitled "Here and There With the FSU—
Nortliern California." The article proceeds to discuss activities within
the Friends of the Soviet Union and in the article in this para.iraph :

Paul Orr, district organizer of the San Francisco District, states "The FSU
of this district can point with pride to many achievements during the past
year. Many new locals have been organized, sections have been established and
thousands of workers have been reached by the FSU and brought closer to
their friendship for the Soviet Union. The district organization has been of
the utmost importance in knitting together the various branches and the activity
of the FSU."

All of which is in quotations. Will you examine it, please.

(Document handed to witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee whether or not the
article appearing there correctly reports your report of activities
within the Friends of the Soviet Union ?

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

1450 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF,, AREA

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis that it is
not pertinent to any legislation and that also it is more than 22 years
old and that it involves matters of opinion which violates my rights
tinder the first amendment and also supplemented with the fifth,
amendment.

Mr. ScHERER. May I ask a question ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. Vrere you ever a district organizer of the FSU a&
referred to in the magazine article ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I was asked that specific question by Mr. Tavenner and I
have already stated my opinion, my answer to that.

Mr. Scherer. Were you ever a district organizer of the Communist
Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I
have pi'eviously mentioned.

Mr. Scherer. I have one more question.

Is the information read to you by Mr. Tavenner from Soviet Russia
Today, true or false as it refers to you ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis I have men-
tioned previously.

]\Ir. Scherer. You don't deny what it said then in that article as
the truth, do you ^

Mr. Orr. I think that is simply a repetition of the same question
which I have already answered.

Mr. Scherer. Do you refuse to answer that last question ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that I mentioned
previously.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire that the document be marked for identifica-
tion only as "Orr Exhibit No. 3."

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Orr, durin.g the period from 1932 to the time
you came to Los Angeles around the year 1938, were you engaged in
any activity for the Communist Party in the city of San Francisco?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first amendment and supplemented by the fifth.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you engaged in any such activities in Rich-
mond, which is an area, I think, across the bay from San Francisco?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I
have previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a photostatic copy of the Western
Worker, the heading of which is "Western Worker, Western Organ
of the Communist Party, USA, Section of the Communist Interna-
tional," bearing date of September 3, 1934. Are you familiar with
that publication?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Tavenner. In the issue referred to there is an article entitled
"Gallagher Poll Will Beat 200,000. Huge Protest of Terror Sweeps

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1451

Entire State. 101,000 Los Angeles Vote for Gallagher. Richmond
Doubles Communist Vote."

I quote one paragraph from the article but before doing so I will
describe the article as an analysis of the Communist Party vote in
various parts of the State of California during that year.

In one paragraph we jfind :

In Richmond, William Prater polled 1,038 for public administrator out of
32,000 votes cast. Paul Orr running for supervisor in tlie first district got 835
votes, which has doubled any previous Communist vote.

Did you participate in that election as a Communist Party candi-
date for the board of supervisors as indicated by that article ?

(Document handed to witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Tavenner. You were living in Richmond at that time, were you
not, in September 1934 ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to have the document marked for identi-
fication only as "Orr Exhibit No. 4."

Mr. Doyle. Witness, in answer to Mr. Tavenner's question whether
or not you lived in Richmond, Calif., in 1934, I direct you to answer
that question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Doyle. That last exhibit will be received and marked as re-
quested.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Orr, I hand you a photostatic copy of an
affidavit of registration made in Los Angeles on July 21, 1938, which
is in the nature of a request for a transfer from San Francisco County
to Los Angeles in which the ninth question appearing in the aificlavit
is:

I intend to afiiliate at the ensuing primary election with the Communist Party.

Will you examine that document, please, and state whether or not
jou sought a transfer from San Francisco to Los Angeles and iden-
tified yourself as intending to supi^ort the Communist Party?

(Document handed to witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Moulder. ]\Ir. Chairman.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Moulder.

Mr. Moulder. Can you tell us what that document is, Mr. Orr?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I wish to say I tliink the document speaks for itself and
1 have nothing further to say on that.

Mr. WiRiN. You may look at it, Mr. Congressman. Will you show
it to the Congressman?

Mr. INIouLDER. You refuse to answer the question ?

Mr Orr. I refuse.

Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer Mr. Moulder's question.

1452 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., ARE4

Mr. DoTLE. I direct you to answer that question propounded by
Congressman Moulder, Mr. Witness.

(The witness conferred with his counseL)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Moulder, I can see what it appears to be, but I want to hand
the document to the witness and ask him to read it and testify, for the
record, what it appears to be on the basis of the face of that document.

( Document handed to witness.)

Mr. WiRiJsr. May I have the question read ?

Mr. DoYLE. Please read the question, Mr. Keporter.

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)

Mr. WiRiisr. To read the document ?

Mr. DoYLE. He asked the witness to read it.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ScHERER. You meant out loud, did you not ?

Mr. Moulder. I am asking the witness to read for the record what
appears on the face of that document.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I have read this myself first, and I see no reason — it
seems to me it is quite evident the nature of it and I see no reason
for reading it aloud.

Mr. Moulder. I move the witness be directed to read the document
as requested.

Mr. Doyle. Did you hear Mr. Moulder's request, that you be di-
rected to read that aloud ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. Frankly, I do not care to read it aloud.

Mr. Doyle. I am directing you to answer the question and read the
document out loud for the purpose of the record.

Mr. WiRiN. I don't know how to advise my client on this.

Mr. Jackson. He can decline.

Mr. WiRiN. He has.

Mr. Jackson. On what basis?

Mr. WiRiN. He doesn't want to read it out loud. He is not here
to read.

Mr. Jackson. What is the reason for declining to answer? What
legal reason is being given for declining to comply with the request ?

Mr. WiRiN, On the fifth amendment, he said.

Mr. Jackson. Are you declining to read the document upon the
grounds of the first and fifth amendments ?

Mr. Orr. That is correct.

Mr. WiRiN. May we proceed, then ?

Mr. Scherer. I want to know how can he possibly incriminate him-
self, by reading a document that is in evidence, out loud ?

Mr. WiRiN. Couldn't the chairman read it, or counsel ?

Mr. Doyle, Mr. Wirin, please.

Mr. Scherer. I just say that it is an improper use of the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Doyle. Proceed.

Mr. Scherer. I certainly do not accept that answer.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence.

Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. Witness, you understand you were
directed to read the document out loud ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1453

Mr. WiRiN. May I read it for him ?

Mr. Doyle. No, indeed. You know, Mr. Wirin, he is able to read.
He can write.

Mr. ScHERER. He has a master's de^ee.

Mr. Doyle. A master's degree from the university and is in physical
condition.

Mr. Wirin. I read better than he does.

Mr. Doyle. I directed you to read that out loud, Witness, so we will
have the record straight and then we will proceed.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. Do I understand that I am possibly incriminating myself
by reading this ?

Mr, Jackson, The only thing that would indicate that you might in-
criminate yourself by reading it was your own reliance on the fifth
amendment. You declined to read it, taking your stand upon the pro-
visions of the fifth amendment. You say that it might tend to incrimi-
nate you if you read it. I don't think the committee has made any such
statement.

Mr. Moulder. And your reading it doesn't constitute an admission
in any respect.

Mr, Wirin. With that understanding I will advise him he may
read it.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Wirin. It may take some time. Do you want everything read
on it?

Mr. Doyle, Mr, Wirin, have him read the document. That means
the document. It doesn't mean half the document or less than all of it.

Mr. Wirin. If you have time for it, we have.

Mr. Orr. You understand I do it under coercion.

Mr, Doyle, We are not coercing you at all.

Mr, Wirin. Don't read it then.

Mr. Jackson. As the situation stands now, the witness refuses to
read the document upon the basis of the first and fifth amendments.
I am not willing to accept that as a legal use of the fifth amendment
and I want the record to show it very clearly, and I ask that the witness
again be directed to read the document.

Mr, Moulder, I understand he refuses to read it because he is under
coercion. That is the last reason given,

Mr. Jackson. I think it should be clear in the record he has said
previously he would not read it because

Mr. Wirin. The witness will read the document.

Mr. Orr (reading) :

Statement of transfer or change of name. I last registered under the name of — >

and it is written here "New."

I last registered at and removed from San Francisco County.

And that is marked "canceled."

I hereby authorize the cancellation of said registration —

Opposite side is Los Angeles City precinct No, 1159,

It says "Original" at the top. '^'O. K." is above the word "original.'^
[Reading :]

State of California, county of Los Angeles, Affidavit of Registration, The
undersigned affiant being duly sworn says I will be at least 21 years of age at

1454 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

the time of the next succeeding election, a citizen of the United States 90 days
prioi' thereto, and a resident of the State 1 year, of the county 90 days, and
of the precinct 40 days next preceding such election, and will be an elector of this
county at the next succeeding election.

Line 1. I have not registered from any other precinct in the State since
■January 1, 1936.

Then the name is Paul Orr. Then in small type it says:

If applicant has so previously registered, mark out the vpord "not" and fill out
the appropriate blanks at the top of the affidavit.
Line 2. My name is Paul Orr —

then under that —

My full name is Paul Orr (including Christian or given name and middle name
or initial, and in the case of women, the px-efix Miss or Mi's.).

My residence is 988i/^ Everett Street. Name of street or road (if remote from
both, then give section, township or range) : Sunset and end of street.

Post-ofiice address : 988yo Everett Street.

Fourth : My occupation is secretary.

Fifth : My height is 5 feet 6% inches. I was born in Kansas.

It says if a native born citizen you need not answer question No, 7.
That isn't answered.

No. 8 — No. 7 : I acquired citizenship by —

and then it is:

(a) decree of court, citizenship of father, (b) Father's naturalization;
mother's naturalization, (c) Citizenship of father, (d) Marriage to a citizen
prior to September 22, 1922. (e) Naturalization of my husband prior to Septem-
ber 22, 1922. (/) Act of Congress. (i7) By treaty.

And then next is "when" and there is a blank left there. And what
my father's, mother's, husband's name is or was and to be filled out
when citizenship depends on citizenship of naturalization of parent
or husband.

No. 8 : I can read the Constitution in the English language ; I cau write my
name; I am entitled to vote by reason of having been on October 10, 1911. (c)
an elector. (6) More than 60 years of age.

Under that —

I can mark my ballot by reason of —

and it says —

state physical disability, if any.

No. 9. I intend to affiliate at the ensuing primary election with the Communist
Party. If affiliation is not given, write or stamp, "Declines to state."

This says —
Canceled by transfer to 1159, W. M. Kerr, registrant of voters. By Jacobson,
9-11-39, Deputy Registrar.

I can't make out the name, H. Enfiagian, I think it is.
Then my name :

Paul Orr, 988^^ Everett Street. Sworn to before me this 21st day of July.
W. M. Kerr, registrar of voters, 1938. Deputy registrar of voters, Margaret Reis.
B 268698—

und two "O. K.'s".

Mr. Doyle. Thank you for doing that.

Mr. Moulder. Is there a signature appearing there ? You did not
read the signature ?

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1455

Mr. Jackson. I think the record should show there is a signature
appearing there, that it is Paul Orr, and that the registration, party
registration, is Communist.

Mr. WiRiN. The document shows it. I don't think the record
shows it.

Mr. Jackson. Very well. I will ask this : Were you a member of
the Communist Party at the time this registration was executed?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Jackson. The document shows him to have been registered as
a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Moulder. May I ask one question ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes.

Mr. Moulder. You examined the document which you have just
read and you have examined the signature appearing on the document,
haven't you, Mr. Orr ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Moulder. The question was merely : Did you see a signature
appearing on the document which you have just read.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, quite obviously the refusal to answer
the question as to whether or not he saw a signature appearing on a
form which he has just read at great length is an improper use of the
fifth amendment. I am not satisfied myself that it is proper use and
I ask that the witness be directed to answer the question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Witness, to answer the question Mr.
Moulder asked you about the signature.

Mr. WiRiN. May I confer with my client ?

Mr. Doyle. Always.

Mr. WiRiN. I thought there was some objection.

Mr. Doyle. No.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on both the first and the
fifth amendments.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness again be directed
to answer the question and that it be made abundantly clear in the
record that the subcommittee is not satisfied that this is a valid and
proper use of the fifth amendment and that the witness be made aware
cf the objections of the subcommittee to his use and reliance on the
fifth amendment in refusing to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. Witness, you have just heard the observation and state-
ment made by Congressman Jackson. I now direct you again to an-
swer that question asked by Mr. Moulder.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. The United States Constitution gives me the right to base
my refusal on the first and the fifth amendments, my protection.

Mr. Doyle. Do you base your refusal to answer that question on
the Constitution of the United States, the first and fifth amend-
ments ?

Mr. Orr. I have.

Mr. Doyle. I didn't hear you so base it. I heard you just state that
the Constitution gives you that right. Do you exercise that right?

1456 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr, Orr. I exercise that riglit under the Constitution.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the document referred
to in the testimony be resubmitted to the witness and call his attention
to a signature and ask him whether or not a signature does appear
upon the document.

Mr. Doyle. Wait until he is through conferring with counsel.

Mr. WiRiN, Is something being said ?

Mr. Moulder. I will strike tliat question and resubmit it.

Mr. Orr, you now hold in your hands a document you read a few
moments ago, is that so ?

Mr. Orr. Yes, I did.

Mr. Moulder. Now, looking at that document, do you see a signature
appearing upon it ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I have looked at the document and again I say I refuse to
answer that question based on my rights under the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Moulder. That is all.

Mr. Doyle. Proceed.

Mr. Tavenner. Is the signature of Paul Orr on that document your
signature ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to otl'er the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Orr Exhibit No. 5", and that it be incorporated in
the transcript of the record.

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

(The exhibit referred to is as follows :)

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Mr, Jackson. Mr. Chairman, may I state for the record that at the
time of that registration, the Communist Party was a legal party on
the ballot, that there was no legal onus attached to it, and that mem-
bership in the party or registration in the party was not an offense
under the laws of the State of California or of the United States.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Orr, Exhibit No. 5, constituting a transfer from
San Francisco to Los Angeles for purposes of qualifying to vote, which
appears to have been done in 1938, indicates that you must have come
to Los Angeles at least prior to the date of that document, which is
July 21, 1938.

1458 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AEEA

Did you appear in Los Angeles prior to July 21, 1938?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Tavenner. In addition to transferring your voting rights did
you also transfer your Conununist Party membership from San Fran-
cisco to Los Angeles at about the same time ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

M. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I would like to incorporate into the
record at this point the testimony of Mr. William Kimple, taken in
executive session in April of this year, insofar as it relates to this
witness.

Mr. Doyle. Executive session of this committee ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. Mr. Kimple was an employee of the police
department of the city of Los Angeles and was placed in the Com-
munist Party by the police department of the city of Los Angeles,
where he continued to work for a number of years and according to his
testimony became assistant membership director of the Communist
Party in Los Angeles. His testimony insofar as it refers to this witness
is as follows :

Paul Orr, party name Daniel Boone, 2157 South Spring Street, care of the
IWO, Los Angeles, Calif. He is a member of the Communist Party in Los
Angeles having transferred to Los Angeles from the San Francisco area. This
information came from the 1938 Communist Party transfer. I know this man
to be a member of the Communist Party from having seen his Communist Party
membership records and from having had Communist Party mail communica-
tions with him in regard to the Friends of the Soviet Union oi-ganization.

The witness was asked this question :

Did you ever meet him personally in a Communist Party meeting?

To which Mr. Kimple replied :

No ; I have met his wife but not him.

Question :

Is his wife's name Violet Orr?

His reply :

His wife is Violet Orr.

I don't propose to ask you any question regarding your wife, but
1 do want to ask you whether or not you communicated at any time
with Mr. Kimple regarding the business of the Friends of the Soviet
Union.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. From what you have just said, Mr. Kimple is a paid in-
former and I do not care to dignify a reply to that and I base my
reply on the basis of my rights under the first and the fifth amendments
of the Constitution.

Mr. ScHERER. Let me ask you a question. Didn't your counsel tell
you to give the answer that you gave, namely

Mr. WiRiN. I object to that.

Mr. ScHERER. Wait a minute. You keep quiet. Didn't your counsel
repeat in your ear just now the exact words that you uttered to this
committee, namely

Mr. WiRiN. Are you eavesdropping? Are you listening in on my
conversation with him ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1459

Mr. ScHERER. Will you keep quiet?

Mr.WiRiN. I resent it.

Mr. Jackson. It was audible.

Mr.WiRiN. You ought not admit you heard it.

Mr. Jackson. You ought not as an ethical attorney in violation of
the rules of the committee put words in the mouth of the witness.

Mr. WiRiN. I have a right to advise him.

Mr. Jackson. But not to coach him.

Mr. Wirin. I shall continue to do so.

Mr. Jackson. Your remaining in the room will be of very short
duration with the permission of the chairman, if there is any more
coaching of the witness.

Mr. Wirin. I will advise him.

Mr. Jackson. You are by no means indispensable.

Mr. Wirin. I am not intimidated by any threat to put me out.

Mr. Jackson. I am not threatening you. I have no authority to
do so, but I am confident the chairman will insure that the rules of
the committee are enforced.

Mr. ScHERER, Isn't it a fact your counsel just now told you the
exact words of the answer that you gave ?

Mr. WiRiN. May I speak to him without your listening in ?

Mr. Jackson. If you will modulate your tone a little bit it won't
carry.

Mr. Wirin. I will go into the corner and talk to my client privately.

Mr. Scherer. Counsel, in my opinion you are guilty of contempt.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Wirin, will you be seated please?

Mr. Wirin. May I speak to my client where I am not being over-
heard ? Haven't I the right to do it ?

Mr. Doyle. We don't want to overhear you, but if you talk so loud
I can't help it.

Mr. Wirin. Alert ears were listening to what I said.

Mr. Scherer. I want the record to show a few minutes ago, earlier
in this proceeding, I advised counsel that I could hear what he was
saying, that we advised him he was speaking so loudly it was recorded
on the recording machine, and it is obvious from his conduct he has
been putting words into the witness' mouth all through this testimony.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Wirin. I ask that be stricken from the record.

Mr. Doyle. Just to refresh the memory of all of us as to what I as
subcommittee chairman read as this hearing started, here is the exact
wording that I read

Mr. Wirin. I am familiar with them.

Mr. Doyle. Let me reread them so there will be no further misunder-
standing.

We want the witness' testimony and not that of the lawyer and we have the
right to expect an ethical member of the bar to confine his advice to his client
to matters involving his constitutional rights and not to put words in the mouth
of the witness.

Mr. Wirin. Is someone suggesting I am not an ethical member of
the bar?

Mr. Doyle. We didn't so suggest, but I am rereading what I read as
this hearing commenced, that under our rules we cannot permit any
lawyer before this committee to put words in the mouth of the witness.

1460 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

You have a perfect right under our rules of procedure to advise him
of his constitutional rights, but it is not proper for you or any lawyer
to testify before this committee through the mouth of his client. That
we believe is a reasonable rule and we will appreciate it if there is no
further misunderstanding.

Mr. WiRiN. I have tried to do my duty as a member of the bar, as
an ethical member of the bar, and I think I have done so. I must say
to you, Mr. Doyle, that I resent a member of this committee listen-
ing in to what I am saying and then making use of it. I think that
is seriously unethical.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Wirin, may I repeat that unfortunately you spoke
so loudly to your client that we could all hear it and that is not our
fault.

Mr. Wirin. It is supposed to be in confidence.

Mr. Doyle. I know it is in confidence but if it appears to be a
violation of the rules of the committee you can expect us certainly
to speak up and that is what Mr. Scherer did, was to speak up that
it appeared to him there was a violation of the rules of the com-
mittee.

Mr. Wirin. May I proceed now ?

Mr. Doyle. Let's do.

Mr. Scherer. He has not answered my question.

Mr. Wirin. May we have the question read ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes ; please read the question.

Mr. Wirin. And just the question and not observations made by me.

Mr. Doyle. I instructed the reporter to read the question.

Mr. Scherer. Let's get this record straight. I first withdraw my
question and I will now ask the reporter to read Mr. Orr's answer
to Mr. Tavenner's question relative to the testimony of Mr. Kimple.
Let's go back.

Mr. Doyle. We will take a 5-minute recess.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Doyle. May the committee reconvene, please.

The committee will be in order, please.

Let the record show after this 10-minute recess that the full sub-
committee is present with the exception of Mr. Scherer. A legal
quorum of the subcommittee is here. Mr. Scherer is necessarily
answering a long-distance phone and will be here again in just a
minute or two.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Orr, at the time that you came to Los Angeles,
in 1938, did you engage in organizational work for the IWO?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I
gave earlier in my testimony.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you affiliate with the Communist Party in the
city of Los Angeles in 1938 ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. TA^T.NNER. I have before me an issue of the People's World of
June 14, 1944, which shows "A book review of our history in true
colors." The review, it is said, is made by Paul Orr.

I also have before me the June 21, 1944, issue of the People's World
from which it appears that a book review of Teheran Blueprints
Postwar Necessities was made by Paul Orr, and a third issue, that

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1461

of July 26, 1944, of the People's World, which carries an additional
book review.

Will you examine these three photostatic copies

Mr. Orr. I don't think it is necessary. I think it is a waste of
time. I refuse to answer the question.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine these three copies, please, and
tell the committee whether or not you had arrangements with the
People's World by which you would write reviews for it ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. WiRiN. Do you want us to examine the parts that are in red
pencil ?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Wheeler, will you point out the particular arti-
cles that are involved ?

Mr. Orr. I have examined them and I refuse to answer your
question.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any official position of any character
or any business relationship with the Daily People's World here in Los
Angeles ?

(The w^itness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Orr, do you know of any person other than your-
self whose name is Paul Orr ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Ta\t3nner. I desire that the documents presented to the wit-
ness be marked for identification only as "Orr Exhibits 6, 7, and 8."

Mr. Doyle. They will be so received and so marked.

Mr. WiRiN. May I ask you, that does not mean we are offering the
exhibits, they are really the committee's exhibits in connection with
Orr ; is that the idea ?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Orr, I have before me a photostatic copy of
page 4 of the September 19, 1944, issue of the People's World and in
there I find an article entitled "Communists Elect Officers." Then a
subtitle: "Oleta Yates Named President of the S. F. County Asso-
ciation."

The article is datelined San Francisco, September 18 :

Officers elected for the ensuing year at yesterday's county convention of the
Communist Political Association are : President, Oleta O'Connor Yates ; vice
presidents, Rudie Lambert and John Pittman ; secretary-treasurer, Clemmie
Barry ; county committee, including officers above, Charlotte Callahan, June
Stevenson, Jack Patton, Henry Massey, Violet Orr, Ray Irvine, Archie Brown
(on leave to the Armed Forces), Ann Stout, Virginia Lindbergh, Ernest La vino,
Herbert Resner, Jackie McNeil, Tom Boylan, Walter Stack, Paul Orr.

Will you examine this document, please, and state whether or not
in September 1944 or shortly prior thereto you were elected a mem-
ber of the county committee of the Communist Party as announced
in that article '^

Mr. Orr. I don't particularly care to examine it, but if you insist,
I will.

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir ; I insist.

(Document handed to witness; witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Orr Exhibit No. 9" for identification only.

1462 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

(Representative Scherer entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a photostatic copy of the Com-
munist Political Association Club officers bulletin issued by the State
committee of the Communist Political Association of California, the
issue of July 1944. On page 5 there is an article entitled "Browder
Book Campaign, Experiences and Responses," by Paul Orr.

In the article there is bracketed off by solid lines advice to chapters
of the Communist Party which I desire to read.

Your club chapter. — All Communist clubs throughout the Nation are receiving
charters certifying that they are legally constituted clubs of the Communist
Political Association. Be proud of your charter. It is a symbol of the fact
that your club is part of the great Communist movement in our country, con-
tributing its energies and talents to the winning of the war and the building of
a democratic, peaceful world. Your charter is a lasting and important docu-
ment. It should be handled accordingly. We suggest that you frame your
charter, using a glass face and a board backing, and see that the charter is on
display at all club meetings.

Will you state whether or not that material which I read and en-
closed by solid lines in an article over your name is advice given by you
to Communist Party clubs ?

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Ore. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Ta\'enner. Will you examine the article appearing over your
name and state whether or not you made that contribution to the Com-
munist Political Association bulletin ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I have looked at the document and I refuse to answer that
question.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to have the document marked for identifi-
cation only as "Orr Exhibit No. 10."

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you living in San Francisco in 1944 ?

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer that question. I don't
see how it can incriminate you to tell whether or not you were living
in San Francisco.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first and the fifth amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a photostatic copy of page 5,
December 4, 1945, issue of the Daily World. This paper carries an
article entitled "Book Talk — Foster Writes New Labor Pamphlet, by
Bernice Carey." In the course of the article reference is made to the
International Bookstore in San Francisco and says that this book-
store has evolved a plan whereby one can get pamphlets such as on the
strike situation, "While they are still hot off the griddle."

And then I quote from the article :

By sending .$2 to Paul Orr, the International Bookstore, 1400 Market Street,
San Francisco 2, Calif., you become entitled to have new pamphlets mailed to
you the moment they come in until your investment is used up.

Will you examine the document, please, and state what your con-
nection was with the International Bookstore in San Francisco in 1945
if any ?

(Document handed to witness; witness conferred with his counsel.)

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1463

Mr. Orr. I have examined the document and I refuse to answer.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to have the document marked for identifi-
cation only as "Orr Exhibit No. 11."

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a photostatic copy of page 4 of
the April 29, 1946 issue of the Daily World. I find here an article
entitled "World Sub Drive," referring of course to a subscription
drive for the Daily World paper, subtitled "Sam Kutnick Leads
County, 288 Months of Readers, by Violet Orr, San Francisco Com-
munist Party Press Director."

It is datelined San Francisco, April 28. It begins by stating that
the county committee of the Communist Party here has set a goal of
365 new readers each month as their part in the statewide party drive
to double the circulation of the Daily People's World in 1947.

Further in the article reference is made to the accomplishment of
various individuals in the selling of subscriptions to the Daily People's
World. Among them is the name of Paul Orr, of North Beach No. 1.,

Wlien I said Beach, the actual spelling of the last word is "Neach,"
which I assume to be a misprint. It actually reads North Neach No. 1,
18, meaning 18 subscriptions.

Will you examine tliat article appearing over the name of Violet
Orr and state whether or not you were correctly reported as having
sold 18 subscriptions to the Daily People's World from North Beach
No. 1?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer the question.

Mr. Tavenner. I request that the article be filed for identification
only and be marked "Orr Exhibit No. 12."

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and marked.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the North Beach No. 1 club
or section of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. That question too I refuse to answer.

Mr. Moulder. The witness should state his reasons for refusing to
answer, for the record.

Mr. Orr. Based, as I mentioned previously, on my rights under the
United States Constitution, the first amendment and supplemented
by the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please whether or not
\'ou have been identified with the Communist Party since you have
been in Los Angeles for the last 4 years, over the last 4-year period ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. On what grounds ?

Mr. Orr. The same grounds I previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I think I answered that one before.

Mr. Jackson. Will you please answer it again ?

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. On what grounds, please ?

Mr. Orr. On the grounds of my rights under the American Con-
stitution, the first amendment and the fifth amendment.

65500—55 — pt. 1 3

1464 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time since your employment in 1951 in Los Angeles?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. On what grounds ?

Mr. Orr. On the grounds that I have my rights under the first
amendment and the fifth amendment to the United States Constitu-
tion.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any knowledge of Communist Party
activities within any organization other than the Communist Party
itself?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds I
have mentioned previously.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that I have men-
tioned previously.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Moulder?

Mr. Moulder. First I want to say to the witness, every witness
appearing before this committee has the right to claim the privilege
under the Constitution. Whether or not that privilege is being
claimed in good faith or properly so is a question to be determined.
However, I would like to ask you 2 or 3 questions as I think any wit-
ness should have the opportunity to clear himself on the (juestion which
I intend to propound to you, such as this.

You refused to answer the question as to whether or not you are now
or have ever been a member of the Communist Party. I want to ask
you : Have you ever been a member of any subversive organization ?

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds I have men-
tioned previously.

Mr. Moulder. Have you ever to your own personal knowledge com-
mitted any act of espionage or any act of clislo5^alty to your native
country, the United States of America ?

(Tlie witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Moulder. Do you have any personal knowledge of any organi-
zation or the activity of any organization or persons engaged in subver-
sive activities or acts of disloyalty to the United States?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the same basis that I mentioned
in my previous answer.

Mr. Moulder. Do you have any knowledge or information concern-
ing espionage or acts of disloyalty or subversive activities against the
best interests of the United States in which you yourself would not be
incriminating yourself to answer the question or to give that informa-
tion ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds as the pre-
vious question.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1465

Mr. Moulder. That is all.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Orr, I think at the outset of your testimony you
Tvere asked as to your present employment and I believe your answer
was that you were in charge of the biological laboratory; is that cor-
rect?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I stated that I was the biology stockroom supervisor.

Mr. Jacksox. What are your duties in that capacity, Mr. Orr?

(Tlie witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that I don't think
it is pertinent.

Mr. Jacksox. Mr. Chairman, the committee has abundant evidence
that indicates beyond any question of a doubt that in some of the uni-
versities, institutions of higher education, in this country there have
been very well-organized cells of the Communist Party.

Mr. DoYLE. That is true.

Mr. Jackson. We are taking testimony today in an area that could
conceivably be — I don't say it is, but it could be of considerable im-
portance so far as the defense of the United States is concerned.
For that reason I think the question is pertinent and I ask that the
witness be directed to answer as to the specific nature of his duties
in the biologic stockroom.

Mr. Doyle. I agree with Mr. Jackson and I instruct the Avitness to
answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. Under coercion I will state

Mr. DoYLE. May I interrupt to this extent : There is no coercion. I
want the record to show there is no evidence of any coercion.

Mr. WiRiN. He means under orders of the committee.

Mr. Doyle. All right, with that understanding, if that is his inter-
pretation of coercion, my direction.

Mr. WiRix. I apologize. I used the word "coercion."

Mr. Doyle. Proceed, Witness.

Mr. Orr. I have charge of the stockroom so I have to keep up the
necessary glassware and other necessary apparatus that is necessary
for a stockroom.

Mr. Jackson. Do your duties also extend to prepared biologies and
pharmaceuticals and things of that sort?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. I instruct the witness to answer that question, and. Wit-
ness, haA'ing testified that you are a supervisor of a biological stock-
room and it wouldn't incriminate you apparently to give that employ-
ment, why don't j'ou proceed to tell us the nature of your duties with-
out taking so much of the time of yourself and all of us to tell it.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. WiRiN. May we have the question read ?

Mr, Jackson. Are your duties of such a nature or does the stock
over which you exercise control include biologies, biological prepara-
tions, pharmaceuticals ? In other words, are the things which are used
in that area at Cal-Tech and under your control in the nature of the
things I have described ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

1466 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I think we are getting into the
crux of an important matter. We are confronted by a witness who
declines to answer whether he is today a member of the Communist
Party. He is employed in a capacity which might very well be a
sensitive one. For that reason I think the question is well within
the jurisdiction of the committee to ask and I believe it should bo
answered and I ask that the Chair direct the witness to answer.

Mr. DoTLE. I direct you very clearly and emphatically, Witness, to
answer that question. How in the world your employment as a biology
stockroom supervisor at Cal-Tech could incriminate you I can't see.
I assume unless unbeknown to the California Technical Institute
at Pasadena something illegal is going on. I direct you to answer
the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer on the basis of the first and fifth amend-
ments.

Mr. ScHERER. I think Congressman Jackson's question becomes more
important when we realize this witness in response to Mr. Moulder's
question refused to state to this committee whether or not he has ever
been engaged in any espionage or acts of disloyalty against the United
States.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I am not trying to direct this ques-
tion into any spectacular channels, but I think the committee has a
right to know just exactly what the witness does and what work is
performed under his direction, to what extent he is responsible for the
issuance of biologies, or other preparations which may conceivably be
going into classified projects of the United States Government at Cal-
Tech. Are there such projects, Mr. Orr, and do you know whether
or not Cal-Tech is performing any classified projects for the United
States Government ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Doyle. I think Mr. Jackson, as a matter of public knowledge
the United States Government has contracts with the California Tech-
nical Institute at Pasadena.

Mr. Jackson. Do you know, sir, whether that is the case?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. DoTLE. That is my last information.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the first
and fifth amendments.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, if the witness has knowledge whether
or not the California Institute of Technology is engaged upon any
classified work for the Federal Government, an honest answer to the
question could not conceivably tend to incriminate him in a criminal
action, and therefore I ask that the witness be directed to answer.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the basis of my rights under
the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Jackson. Have you ever discussed your work in the biologic
laboratory or stockroom with any person known to you to be a
member of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALLF., AREA 1467

Mr. Jackson. No further questions.

Mr. Doyle. Is your biological work for the California Institute of
Technology unclassified work so far as the United States Govern-
ment is concerned ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. Do you have any supervision of your department by
any person superior to you in the employ of California Technical
Institute ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. You understand my question. Is there anyone over you
superior to you on the faculty of California Technical Institute from
whom you take orders?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question,

Mr. Doyle. Are you the head of that department of which you
stated you are the supervisor ? You stated you were supervisor, Wit-
ness. I am asking you if that is the top level of supervision of the
biological stockroom.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer that question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Jackson. In what area did you take your master's degree?
What is your profession specifically ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Jackson. I ask that the witness be directed to answer the ques-
tion as to what his profession is. It is a matter of public record, no
doubt. I don't think we have it. Do we have his exact

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.

Mr. Jackson. The committee does not have it but it is a matter
of public record and I ask that the witness be instructed to answer
the question.

Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer the question.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer the question on the basis of my rights
under the first and fifth amendments,

Mr. Scherer. We should say for the record we are not accepting
his invoking of the fifth amendment because we feel it is an improper
use of the fifth amendment and is not used by him in good faith. After
that statement, Mr. Chairman, may I respectfully ask that you again
direct the witness to answer Mr. Jackson's questions.

Mr. Doyle. I will as soon as the witness and counsel

Mr. WiRiN. May I have a second ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes indeed. Go ahead.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Doyle. Did you hear Congressman Scherer's statement made
just before you and counsel conferred ?

Mr. Jackson, The pending question, what is your profession?

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds mentioned.
I want to state that these statements are made in all good faith.

1468 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Doyle. By whom ?

Mr. Orr. B}^ myself.

Mr. Jackson. To get this absolutely straight, you are telling the
committee that to give us your profession would tend to incriminate
you in a criminal action?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. In view of the type of prosecutions recently I do take that
stand even though the United States Constitution grants it for both —
the United States Constitution, the first and fifth amendments, protect
anyone.

Mr. Jackson. Protect you from giving your profession before a body
exercising its proper jurisdiction under the laws of the country?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I am using the fifth amendment because it protects both
the innocent and the guilty.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I want to say for the record I for one
do not accept the answer as being a legal use of the fifth amendment
and I believe the witness is in contempt of the committee in this regard.

Mr. Doyle. So do I.

Mr. Jackson. He should be warned to that effect.

Mr. ScHERER. I concur in Mr. Jackson's feeling.

Mr. DoYLE. I concur in it. Without any doubt of your hearing me I
give the opinion of myself and the committee. As chairman I am in-
structing you again to answer the question.

May I make a brief statement to you, sii". You liave testified that
you are a supervisor of the biology stockroom at California Institute
of Technology, Pasadena, 10 or 12 miles from here. I am on the Armed
Services Committee of the House of Representatives. The last I un-
derstood, Cal-Tech, your employer, was in contract in certain areas in
the United States Government at the military level, dealing with
classified and unclassified matters on occasions.

It seems to me clearly within our rights and without abusing or di-
gressing from your constitutional rights to insist on an answer to this
question. We don't believe it is in violation of your constitutional
privileges. Therefore we are instructing you and I want to say to you
frankly that which Mr. Jackson did and I am not doing it to infer your
legal counsel hasn't advised you properly as he sees it — may that be
understood, but we believe it is not a fair claim of the constitutional
privilege for you to refuse to answer. Therefore, I direct you to
answer.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. As an American citizen I believe it does violate my rights
and I stand on my rights under the Constitution, first and fifth amend-
ments.

Mr. Jackson. Are you a chemist, sir ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. DoYLE. I direct you to answer that question.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Jackson. Have you at any time in pursuit of your regular
duties at Cal-Tech been involved in any experimental or research work
directly or indirectly related to biological warfare ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1469

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that quesiton.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. WiRiN. When are you taking a recess ? I have an appointment
with Senator Cain.

Mr. DoYLE. We may finish in a minute or an hour and a minute. It
depends on how long the witness takes to refuse to answer the question.

Mr WiRiN. May depend on the length and kind of your questions.

Mr. Jackson. I have no further questions.

Mr. WiRiN. If you are going to conclude we will stay.

Mr. ScHERER. Witness, you will recall that according to the testi-
mony read to you by Mr. Tavenner and according to the testimony
given to this committee in executive session, that William Kimple
was placed in the Communist Party by the police department of the
city of Los Angeles to do what I think is a necessary job to be done
for the Government of the United States, and certainly the depart-
ment is to be congratulated on that move.

William Kimple's testimony was read to you and he told this com-
mittee under oath of your connections with the Communist Party.

You called him an informer and a stool pigeon.

Mr. WiRix. He did not say anything about stool pigeon.

Mr. DoYLE. Mr. Wirin, you remember you are not permitted

Mr. ScHERER. I am going to ask you whether anything that Officer
Kimple told this committee with reference to you was untrue. You
have your opportunity now.

Mr. WiRiN. Are you through with the question ?

Mr. ScHERER. Yes.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. If I recall my statements correctl}^, I did not state he
was a stool pigeon, but I do consider him an informer and as such
I do not consider it worthwliile to testify regarding that.

Mr. Scherer. Now I didn't ask you whether you considered it
worthwhile to testify. I am asking you now, you have the oppor-
tunity to say whether or not anything that this officer said about you
and your connections with the Communist Party was untrue.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I do not care to take any time to discuss his testimony.

Mr. Doyle. We are going to take all the time necessary, I might
state.

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness
to answer my question.

Mr. Doyle. I so direct you.

Mr. Scherer. Whether or not anything Kimple said about you and
your connection with the Communist Party, or anything else that
Kimple said, was untrue.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Wirin. Are you through with the question, Mr. Scherer?

Mr. Scherer. Yes, sir.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Scherer. I am tired of these witnesses attacking men who have
done a job for the police department and who have done a job for
the country.

1470 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. WiRiN. A difference of opinion about that.

Mr. ScHERER. You be quiet a minute. I am talking.

Mr. Doyle. I wish to ask you a couple more questions, Mr. Witness.

In asking this question I only refer to what your duties at Cal-Tech
may be which are unclassified duties, and by using the term "unclassi-
fied" I refer to unclassified work dealing with the military tests, if
any, you make for the United States Government through the con-
tractual relationships between the Government and Cal-Tech. I want
to ask you now what your duties are in Cal-Tech in this biological
work which you know to be unclassified duties? I again refer to
unclassified so far as your knowledge is concerned. I am not asking
you to give me any of your duties which are known to you to be
classified in connection with your Government. What are your duties
at Cal-Tech which come in the classification of unclassified work ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Doyle. Are you yourself under contract with the United States
Government in performance of any professional services at this time?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer that question.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer on the basis

Mr. Doyle. I fail to see how in the world whether or not you are
under contract with the United States Government can incriminate
you.

Mr. Jackson. I concur.

Mr. Doyle. I think it is a frivolous claim of the first amendment and
I think you are clearly in contempt and I say that because I think
you and counsel are entitled to know what my opinion is.

I might as well say members of the committee think this is a case
where we should follow through and find out whether we are within
our legal rights in insisting on answer to that question. I have laid
the foundation so you will know how we feel.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer on the basis of the first and fifth amend-
ments.

Mr. Doyle. I have another phase of the first question.

Are you under contract now with the United States Government to
do any professional work which is unclassified so far as the work under
your contract with the Federal Government is concerned ?

Mr. WiRiN. Wasn't that your last question ?

Mr. Doyle. I asked him whether or not he was under any contract.
Now I am asking this specific question because it may be that he is
under contract to do some classified work. I only apply my question
now to unclassified work.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. Are you under contract of employment directly or in-
directly within your knowledge with any segment or department of
the military of the United States Government?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF,, AREA 1471

Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer that question.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Doyle. You have testified that you were supervisor of the bio-
logical stockroom at Cal-Tech Institute, Pasadena. Do you receive
your financial compensation from Cal-Tech Institute entirely?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer that question. You have tes-
tified that you are in the employ of the Cal-Tech Institute. I want
to know whether you are wholly employed by Cal-Tech Institute or
whether you are compensated in part by some other educational insti-
tution or by some firm or individual. How can that incriminate you ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question based on my rights.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question so it will be clearly
of record we directed you to answer the question and that you under-
stand you are being so directed.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question based on my rights under
the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Doyle. Is your full time, work time, in your profession or occu-
pation given over to Cal-Tech Institute, or are you partially in the
employ of some other employer ?

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct that you answer that question.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question based on my rights under
the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Doyle. Under what direction of Cal-Tech Institute or under
whose direction at Cal-Tech Institute, what individual or what board
or what committee at Cal-Tech Institute do you take directions as to
the extent and nature of your employ for Cal-Tech ?

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question based on my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Jackson. In order that the record may be clear, may the rec-
ord indicate that in every instance where direction has been given
to the witness it has been given by reason of the fact that the sub-
committee does not believe that a valid use of the fifth amendment
is being employed by the witness.

Mr. Doyle. I am glad you made that observation, Mr. Jackson,
and I want to emphasize so that the record will show, that in every case
where I have directed the witness to answer the question, either on my
own volition or at the request of a member of the committee, it is
because the committee believes that the witness has not claimed the
constitutional privilege meritoriously or legally and that is the foun-
dation for my direction of the witness to answer questions.

Any other questions ?

Mr. Moulder. I believe you asked the questions I had in mind with
the exception of one.

1472 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

When you first pursued your duties in the position you now hold, do
you recall making an application for the employment '(

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. Was it a written application ?

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Moulder. Who first suggested your seeking the present em-
ployment or position you now hold ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr, Jackson. On the previous question as to whether or not he
filled out an application for employment at Cal-Tech, I ask that the
witness be directed to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question based on my right under
the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Doyle. In making application or contract with Cal-Tech In-
stitute, your employer, you were required to state, were you not,
whether or not you ever had been a member of any subversive organi-
zation, whether it was the Communist Party or otherwise, isn't that
true?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. Of course we can find out whether or not you did it.
I think it would be interesting to know, Counsel. I want to repeat
Cal-Tech, as far as I know, is under contract with the United States
Government.

Prior to your witnessing before this committee today, after you were
subpenaed to appear before this committee, did you confer with any
of the heads or controlling persons or boards or committees of Cal-
Tech as to what your position as a witness should be before this com-
mittee ?

I am not asking you to tell me whether or not you conferred with
legal counsel. I am asking you to tell me whether or not you con-
ferred with the controlling personnel or committees or boards of Cal-
Tech as to whether or not you should claim the first and fifth amend-
ments.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. Any other questions ?

Mr. Jackson. I have just one. Do you have security clearance from
the Government ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Jackson. I ask that the witness be directed to answer whether
or not he is cleared for classified work with the United States Gov-
ernment.

Mr. Doyle. I direct that you answer that question.

Mr. Orr. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Jackson. I have no further questions.

Mr. Scherer. I have a motion.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Moulder ?

Mr. Moulder. No questions.

COMIlIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1473

Mr. Doyle. Counsel, do you have further questions ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir ; I have none.

Mr. DoYLE. If there are no further questions to this witness, you are
excused. Thank you and counsel.

The committee will recess until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12 : 30 p. m. the committee was recessed, to recon-
vene at 2 p. m. the same day. )

AFTERNOON SESSION— JUNE 27, 1955

Mr. DoYLE. Will the committee please come to order.

I meant to say just before we recessed for the noon period that the
committee very much appreciated all morning the quietness and cour-
tesy extended by every one in the room in their not being any disturb-
ance of any kind, no whispering to bother us, no confusion, and I want
the audience here this afternoon to know we very much appreciate your
cooperation with the connnittee and the witnesses, and their legal
counsel, and we will appreciate the same sort of cooperation this after-
noon from every one in tlie room.

Mr. Tavenner, this morning tliere was a remark criticizing paid
informers. You will remember Mr. Orr criticized or designated that
because someone was a paid informer in his judgment he wouldn't
even dignify. I think that was the word he used, by answering.

I happen to have in my briefcase a Washington Post and Times
Herald for Friday, June 3, 1955. and I thought it was very appropriate
that those in the room here hear what FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover
says on tlie same subject. I will just read for the record this very
brief statement :

FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover yesterday described confidential informants in
law enforcement work as "helpful citizens and potent weapons in the war against
crime and subversion. There can be no doubt that the use of informants in law
enforcement is justified," he said. "The public interest and the personal safety
of tlie.se helpful citizens demands the zealous protection of their confidence. Un-
like the totalitarian practice, the informant in America serves of his own free
will, fulfilling one of the citizenship obligations of our democratic form of
government."

Mr. Hoover further asserted that to abandon use of such informants would be
"To invite destruction." Hoover expressed his views in a signed editorial in the
FBI's law enforcement bulletin distributed monthly to law enforcement agencies
throughout the country. He further said, "The criminal and subversive under-
world has long sought to destroy our effective informant system," Hoover wrote,
"Nothing could possibly render more aid to the enemy than the premature and
unwarranted disclosure of these vital sources of information. Appearance as a
witness in a court of law is certainly the most logical time for revealing the
identity of an informant."

I thought it appropriate to read that statement into the record here
so the folks in the courtroom could hear it. I don't know of any
American citizen that ought to be more respected in his opinion than
J. Edgar Hoover.

Are you ready to proceed ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I would like to call Mr. Andries Deinum.
Will you come forward, please sir.

Mr. DoYLE. Mr. Deinum, will you please raise your right hand and
be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Deinum. I do.

1474 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Be seated, please, Mr, Deinum.

May the record show that on the reconvening of the committee at
2 : 15 p. m. after the noon recess, three of the subcommittee are present :
Messrs. Moulder, Scherer, and Doyle; committee member Jackson is
necessarily absent for a few minutes but there is present a legal quorum
of the subcommittee, so we will proceed.

TESTIMONY OF ANDRIES DEINUM, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

ROBERT KENNY

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Deinum, will you state your name, please.

Mr. Deinum. Andries Deinum. A-n-d-r-i-e-s D-e-i-n-u-m.

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel.
Would counsel please identify himself for the record.

Mr. Kenny. Robert Kenny, Los Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?

Mr. Deinum. I was born in 1918 in the Province of Friesland, in
the Netherlands.

Mr. Tavenner. W^ill you spell the place of your birth ?

Mr. Deinum. Name of my home town is Workum ; name of the pro-
vince is Friesland ; name of the country is the Netherlands.

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to the United States ?

Mr. Deinum. In 1938.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ?

Mr. Deinum. I am.

Mr. Tavenner. 'When and where were you naturalized ?

Mr. Deinum. Right in this building in 1943.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you in the Armed Forces of the United States
at that time, at the time of your

Mr. Deinum. I was never in the Armed Forces in a uniformed
capacity. However, I ought to tell you I did serve for a year in the
Office of Strategic Services in the uniform but as a civilian.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you naturalized while you were in the Office
of Strategic Services?

Mr. Deinum. No, sir. I became naturalized immediately before I
joined. In other words, I became naturalized in December, I went
overseas I think it was in February. I joined in January 1944.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your for-
mal educational training has been ?

Mr. Deinum. Yes. I went to grammar school and gymnasium, a
kind of latin school, in the Netherlands. I came to this country in
1938 to go to Stanford University. I entered as a junior and grad-
uated there with a bachelor's degree in journalism in early 1940. Then
I wasn't in school for quite a while and I took my master's in theater
arts, emphasis on motion pictures, UCLA, in 1951 I think I got my
degree.

Mr. Tavenner. I did not quite understand in what field you took
your master's.

Mr. Deinum. Theater arts, motion pictures. It is a subdivision of
theater arts.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your pres-
ent occupation or profession is ?

Mr. Deinum. At present I am a teacher in the department of cinema
in the University of Southern California.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1475

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed as a teacher in
that institution ?

Mr. Deinum. Three and a half years.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what other em-
ployment you had between the time you received your master's degree
and the time you became a teacher ?

Mr. Deinum. Between the time I received my master's degree and
became a teacher I had no other employment. I mean I went from
that into this.

Mr. Tavenner. Immediately?

Mr. Deinum. Almost immediately, a couple of months difference.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what other em-
ployment you have had in the United States ?

Mr. Deinum. Well, I worked in the motion picture studios in vari-
ous minor capacities over a number of years. I worked as a company
clerk, kind of second assistant director for a while. That was before
I joined the OSS. After I came home I worked as a research director
on various productions and for various companies, I did free-lance
research. That more or less describes it, I would say.

Mr. Tavenner. What was your first employment in the moving pic-
ture industiy ?

Mr. Deinuim. That was a job as a — I think they called it a company
clerk at 20th Century Fox in 1942, 1 think it was.

Mr. Tavenner. Plow long were you so employed ?

Mr. Deinum. Roughly, let's see, a little less than a year, I would
say. I forget exactly.

Mr. Tavenner. After that you sa}^ you became assistant director?

Mr. Deinum. No, sir. After that 1 was unemployed for a while
and then I joined OSS.

Mr. TA^^ENNER. When did you say you were an assistant director?

Mr. Deinum. All I said, Mr. Tavenner, to be a company clerk is a
kind of being an assistant director. Just the way they call often a
third assistant or second assistant. It is another name for the same
thing. You assist the second assistant, if you want to say it that way.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever engaged in screen writing?

Mr. Deinum. No; I haven't, not — well, to modify that, one of the
classes I teach now is in the writing of documentary films but I don't
do much of that myself, but I do teach a basic class in it. That is
about the extent of it, but I have never engaged in actual writing in
the studios.

Mr. Tavenner. You did work in documentary films, did you not?

Mr. Deinum. I did some work in documentary films, I worked with
documentary film directly for about a year, I would say.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us for whom ?

Mr. Deinum. Joris Ivens.

Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time were you so employed ?

Mr. Deinum. Well, sir, it was around the days of Pearl Harbor.
That is the closest I can put it. IMr. Ivens went to Canada in May
1942, so I presume thai is when it stopped. 1 wasn't really employed,
I want to say that. I didn't make any money. I was just his assistant
because I was trying to learn something. You might say I sort of
stuck around. I did work, though.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us, please, where you were stationed
while you were employed by the Office of Strategic Services ?

1476 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr, Deinum. In the London Office.

Mr. Tavenner. London, England ?

Mr. Deinum. Correct.

Mr. Tavenner. From what date to what date?

Mr. Deinum. Well, I would say it was from I think I got there at
the end of March or, beginning of April, 1944, and I left there in
November or the end of October, after my job training.

Mr. Tavenner. "VVliat was the nature of your duties?

Mr. Deinum. Well, Mr. Tavenner, when I left OSS I was told that
I had been in a highly security-conscious organization and I don't
know that I ought to talk about this like this. It might get all of us
in trouble.

Mr. Tavenner. If you consider that to describe your duties might
give away some secrets or make public some secrets

Mr. Deinum. I don't know.

Mr. Tavenner. Wait a minute — some secrets that you think should
not be made public, I do not want to call on you to do so.

Mr. Deinum. I don't think any specific secrets. The only thing I
know is that in OSS they really thought of security in the sense that
we were not supposed to talk about this much and tliis is the first time
this has ever come up so I don't know.

Mr. Scherer. When was it that you terminated your service with
OSS?

]Mr. Deinum. I terminated my service I think officially in January
1945, but I left London in the beginning of November 1944.

Mr. Scherer. Do you think that anything that you learned in the
Office of Strategic Services 10 years ago would still be classified as
secret today?

Mr. Deinum. I don't know, sir. That is why I am asking the ques-
tion.

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Tavenner didn't ask you about anything specific.
He merely asked the nature of the work you did. I think ,you can tell
LIS the nature of it, a question of that type.

Mr. Deinum. Does the chairman think I could? I would like to
have it on joint responsibility.

Mr. Doyle. I would suggest probably in general terms.

Mr. Deinum. In general terms I did office work. I read under-
ground newspapers we got from the Netherlands, I talked to people
to try to build up a picture of what was going on in the Netherlands
under occupation. This is the rough thing I can say. Does that
help you?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes; that gives us a general idea.

Mr. Scherer. That is all we wanted to kno*w. Nothing classified or
secret about that, the war was over 10 years ago.

Mr. Tavenner. In the performance of your duties, were classified
documents available to you?

Mr, Deinum. I think, sir, that all the documents that were handled
by OSS were classified.

Mr. Tavenner. And some of course were marked "Secret."

Mr. Deinum. Sure. As far as I remember. I have forgotten but
I presume so.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether or not at the time you became
employed by the Office of Strategic Services that you filed a form
signed by you, a form on which various questions were asked of you ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1477

Mr. Deinum. I think I signed a form. What questions they asked
me I don't know, sir, but I must have filled out something. We always
do.

Mr. ScHERER. What did you say ? You always do ?

Mr. Deinum. When you join an organization you always fill out
forms.

Mr. ScHERER. You would for the Office of Strategic Services ?

Mr. Deinum. You would for any Government organization.

Mr. ScHERER. There was a thorough investigation for anybody who
became a member of the Office of Strategic Services.

Mr. Deinum. I was contacted to join the actual organization.
Though I was a 4-F and not otherwise eligible I was shipped overseas
almost at once* because they had investigated me 4 years before and
knew all about me.

Mr. ScHERER. Did they ask you additional questions ?

Mr. Deinum. It was a formality, as I remember, because I was called
to an office in this building, asked a question, rushed away almost im-
mediately.

Mr. ScHERER. But you were asked some questions with reference to
your background, were jou not?

Mr. Deinum. Yes, but although — yes. I presume so. The main
question I remember is a man asked me, "Do you want to go to Hol-
land," and I said, "How come?"

Mr. ScHERER. You did fill out a form and that form contained
many questions as to your background ?

Mr. Deinum. To the best of my recollection. I did, but I do not
remember the form. I have filled out a lot of forms in my life, had
to fill out a lot of forms, it is the world we live in.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall on that form there was a question
which had for its purpose an iiiquiry as to whether or not you had at
any time been a member of an organization which advocated the over-
tlirow of the Government of the United States by force or violence ?

Mr. Deinum. There could a ery well have been such a question on
that list.

Tr, Tavenner. Do you recall how you answered it ?

Mr. Deinum. I presume I must have answered it the same way I
answered the question for my citizenship, by sajdng "No," but I haven't
seen it.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
that time ?

Mr. Deinum. No, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you become a member of the Communist Party
at a later time ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. Yes. I would like to state now that I am not now a
Communist. That I also would add to that that I have been a Com-
munist for a period from about early 1046 to the middle of 1950, to the
best of my recollection. I would further like to clarify my position
this way : that I am not going to testify about my associations with
others while I was a Communist, and since testimony about my activi-
ties while in the party will necessarily involve others, I will not testify
about my activities, either. My refusal to testify about other persons
or activities is solely based upon the first amendment of the Constitu-
tion, supplemented by the fifth.

1478 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

I will grant you the fact of my membership and any questions you
care to ask me about my views about what I think about, what I hold,
all the opinions I hold, you are very welcome to.

Mr. ScHERER. I think we should state at the outset, Mr. Chairman,
that we cannot accept, although his statement was made in advance
of any questions that were asked him or might be asked of him, that
we cannot possibly accept his explanation as an excuse for not answer-
ing questions that involve other individuals.

There is nothing in the Constitution that I know of that prevents
a person called as a witness from answering questions with reference
to other individuals. I think it should be made clear that in our
opinion that is no legal basis for his refusal to answer questions which
I now presume that you are going to ask him, at least that he expects
you to ask him.

Mr. Doyle. Did you understand Congressman Scherer's statement
just now ?

Mr. Deinum. Yes, sir; I do. I have made a certain amount of
study on these matters and I know

Mr. Doyle. You have made a certain amount of study as to what
you claim your rights to be ?

Mr. Deinum. Yes, sir.

Mr. Doyle. You familiarized yourself, you feel, with what your
constitutional rights are ?

Mr. Deinum. Yes, sir ; I did.

Mr. Doyle. You feel you have come to some conclusion as to the
position you wish to take before this committee?

Mr. Deinum. Yes, sir. I didn't come here unprepared.

Mr. Doyle. I wish to emphasize, sir, that as a congressional com-
mittee we cannot accept your undertaking and statement as binding
on us justifying us or you, either, in refusing to answer questions
which are pertinent or germane to the purpose.

(Representative Jackson entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Doyle. May it be further understood in connection with your
testimony or the testimony of any other witness before this committee,
that whenever I direct you to answer a question, if I do, in spite of
the fact that you have refused to answer it, if I direct you to answer
a question or one of my colleagues asks that I instruct you to answer
a question, it is because we believe that your refusal to answer at least
is not proper, not a just claim of your constitutional privilege.

We might even believe it is frivolous or at least not binding on this
committee and not a sufficient justification legally.

Mr. Deinum. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. You understand that ?

Mr. Deinum. Yes, sir.

Mr. Doyle. Is that satisfactory, Mr. Scherer?

Mr. Scherer. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. Proceed.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Deinum, you stated that you were willing to
answer any questions that I might desire to ask regarding your beliefs
or your opinions.

Mr. Deinum. Correct, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, this committee does not ask
any witness a question of his beliefs or his opinions. I am not inter-

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1479

ested and I don't think the committee is interested in any manner
in what you may believe or as to what your opinion is.

What we are interested in is what activity you engaged in as a
member of the Communist Party and what knowledge you have of
Communist Party activities in certain fields in Los Angeles and my
questions of course will be confined to that,

Mr. ScHERER. In addition to what you say, Counsel, we are also
interested in what individuals participated with him in those Com-
munist activities.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Surely. I understood you to say you became a
member of the Communist Party for the first time in 1944.

Mr. Deinum. I didn't say that. I said to the best of my recollec-
tion in the beginning of 1946.

Mr. Tavenner. 1946. Pardon me. Was that in Los Angeles?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. At this point I would like to ask the committee to
give me the benefit of a formal ruling as to whether it considers itself
controlled by the decision of the United States District Court for the
District of Columbia, when it held that Steve Nelson was not guilty
of contempt in refusing to disclose the names of others or his party
activities, even though he admitted that he had been a member of
the Communist Party.

I am handing you a copy of the Nelson decision w^hich is recorded
in volume 103, Federal Supplement, at page 215. In this connection
I also ask the committee to consider before it makes its ruling on my
objection the fact that on May 22 of this year the Supreme Court
reversed the conviction of Philip Bart, although the court below held
he had waived his privilege.

Mr. Doyle. May I state to the gentleman that you have had the
opportunity to read your prepared statement, which is all right. Of
course we are rather familiar with the decisions of the courts. You
can take it for granted, sir, as a witness before this committee that
any question that is asked you by our distinguished legal counsel is
asked you by one of the most scliolarly lawyers in the country.
Mr. Deinum. I don't doubt it at all, sir.

Mr. Doyle. He has never been known to us to deliberately or other-
wise ask questions that are not pertinent, germane and legal. With
that, let's proceed.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first amendment supplemented by the fifth.

Mr. Doyle. I will instruct you to answer the question.
Mr. Deinum. I must decline again, Mr. Doyle. I have to rely on
the courts rather than on this committee's interpretation of the law.
Mr. Doyle. May I suggest to the gentleman in view of the state-
ment a few minutes ago that he has prepared for this hearing — that
every American citizen should prepare himself as far as possible for
any problem — but may it be understood that for the purpose of sav-
ing your time and the time of distinguished counsel and ours, that it
is unnecessary for you to read your objections any more or refer
to court decisions. We are familiar with those court decisions
very thoroughly. If you will just state that you object on the grounds

65500 — 55 — pt. 1 4

1480 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

of your constitutional privilege, whatever amendment you want to
refer to, that will be sufficient. Isn't that satisfactory ?

Mr. Kenny. I think the witness can incorporate what he has said
previously by merely saying "as previously stated."

Mr. Doyle. Let's proceed on that basis.

Mr. Deinum. All right.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please ?

Mr. Scherer. Let's go back. I forgot the question. What is the
question ?

Mr. Tavenner. The question was whether or not he first became
a member of the Communist Party in the City of Los Angeles.

Mr. Deinum. I answered and I will answer the same way again
that I decline to answer that question on the grounds I have already
stated rather elaborately.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you have doubt that was the question ?

Mr. Scherer. Was the question when he became a member of the
party in Los Angeles ?

Mr. Deinum. That was answered.

Mr. Tavenner. He answered the question.

Mr. Scherer. Wliat was the question ?

Mr. Tavenner. The present question is whether or not he first
became a member of the Communist Party in the city of Los Angeles.
I suggest, Mr. Chairman, tliat you give the witness a direction as to
whether or not to answer the question.

Mr. Doyle. I do direct you to answer that question.

Mr. Deinum. Well, sir, I decline again on the grounds I have stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Was the Communist Party group with which you
were affiliated a group composed principally of members of any
profession or trade ?

Mr. Denium. Since this question refers to activities, I will again
refuse on the grounds I have stated.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman,

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson, I apologize for not being here at the time you con-
veneel, but I would lil^e to be informed to what extent, if any, an
admission of m.embership has been made by the witness,

Mr, Tavenner. The witness has very clearly stated that he was a
member of the Communist party between certain dates.

Mr, Deinum, 1946 to the middle of 1950, 1 stated,

Mr. Tavenner. That he was willing to speak of his opinions and
beliefs but he would not speak of his activities while a member of the
Communist Party in substance.

Mr. Scherer. Or name his associates.

Mr. Tavenner. Or name any of his associates.

Mr. Jackson. Thank you.

Mr. Doyle. May I supplement, Mr. Jackson, by saying our dis-
tinguished legal counsel immediately explained to the witness that
this committee is not interested in opinions or beliefs.

Mr. Scherer. I think there should be a direction to answer the last
question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer the last question.

Mr. Deinum. I have a feeling — I decline to answer it. I have to
decline to answer it again on the grounds I have stated.

COMML'XIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1481

Mr. ScHERER. Do you feel, Witness, that to answer the question
asked you by Mr. Tavenner may tend to incriminate you ?
(Tlie witness conferred with his counseL)

Mr, Deinum. Congressman, I understand that answering as to a
reason behind a reason would in effect take the privilege away from
me.

Mr. Scherer. Let me ask you the question this way : Are you rely-
ing on that part of the fifth amendment in refusing to answer this
question which gives you the right to refuse on the basis that to an-
swer it might incriminate you ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. Yes, I do.

Mr. Jackson. May I ask one qiiestion : Is the witness aware of the
fact that having voluntarily acij;nowiedged your own membership
in response to a question that there is a possibility that you may waive
your rights under the fifth amendment by refusing to ansv\-er subse-
quent questions on the same proposition or same subject matter^

Mr. Deinum. I am aware of that, sir, and if I have to go to jail
on a question of faitli like that, I have faith in my position, you must
understand this, I didn't take this lightly, I am not dumb, I know
that I am involved, I have been in America a long time and like it,
I would rather be here outside of jail rather than in j. il, I assure
jou.

Mr. Jackson. Are you also aware that moral compulsion, laudable
as it may be, is not legal grounds for refusing to answer.

Mr. Deinum. Yes, but I have to state what I think are le ':al grounds.

Mr. Jackson. I think it is most important that your understanding
of these matters be in the record so there could be no cl im that you
had not been aware of these matters.

Mr. Deinum. May I add something to that? I would like you to
be aware that the reasons I am using are not moral reasons but legal
reasons. You may not agree with them, but I have stated legal reasons.

Mr. Jackson. That is for a decision for a forum other than this.

Mr. Deinum. Sure.

Mr. DoTLE. Witness, we have made it clear to you that we are not
asking you or going to ask you your opinions or beliefs but as I un-
derstand your statement, it was in substance that you would not tell
ns who your associates were and we understand that. Ir asking j'ou
this question, sir, isn't it true that Mr. Tavenner's quos ion is only
asking you as to what you did as a Communist, or mav I ask you
this: Do I understand you are refusing to tell your own c -ngressional
committee what you yourself did as a Communist, not who you did it
with, but what you did as a Communist? That is different. For the
purpose of my questioning I am not asking your associates, but do I
understand that you won't even help your own Gover-nent which
you have adopted, or which has adopted you, to tell us what the Com-
munist Party did with you ?

<'The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. I am not a lawyer but I have been for^'^ \ because of
the circumstances to do quite a bit of legal reading and I 'ave become
acquainted with the doctrine of waivering and I unders^- 'id that if I
answer one question I will waive my rights. I underst nd that the
position I have taken now, I have not waived any rights.

1482 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Jackson. That, of course, is a moot question, whether or not in
your acknowledging your own membership you did not waive your
rights on succeeding questions reLated to the same subject. However,
again that is not a matter for us to determine.

Mr. Moulder. How long have you resided in Los Angeles ?

Mr. Deinum. Since 1940, off and on, since early 1940.

Mr. Moulder. During the year of 1946 did you reside in Los
Angeles ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. Yes, I did.

Mr. Moulder. During this year were you present at all times ?

Mr. Deinum. Throughout 1946 %

Mr. Moulder. Yes.

Mr. Deinum. No, sir ; I spent 21/2 months visiting my family in the
Netherlands.

Mr. Moulder. Did you affiliate yourself with the Communist Party
while you were in the Netherlands ?

Mr. Deinum. I must decline to answer that, sir, on the grounds I
have stated.

Mr. Moulder. You joined the Communist Party in the Netherlands
or Los Angeles, one or the other ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. I don't get the question.

Mr. Moulder. If you resided in Los Angeles throughout the year
1946 and you say you joined the Communist Party in 1946, evidently
you affiliated with the party while here in Los Angeles. You have
answered those questions clearly, and I don't see why you haven't
opened up the subject to the extent where you could not honestly
answer the question as to whether or not you became affiliated with
the Communist Party in Los Angeles. It is evident you did.

Mr. Deinum. Answering that question would imply a waiver of
my rights under the fifth amendment and when I came to tliis country,
when I became a citizen in this building I swore to uphold the Consti-
tution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. All right, I have
done my part against foreign enemies and I am willing to do it against
domestic enemies, but the one thing I am sure of is the only way to
uphold the Constitution is to insist on the rights guaranteed you under
that. There is no sense in having rights if you don't use them. They die.

Mr. ScHERER. A criminal can either admit or deny his guilt or he
can invoke the fifth amendment. He doesn't have to invoke the
fifth amendment. Nobody makes you invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. Deinum. It isn't up to me, Congressman, to suggest reading to
you, but I would suggest what Dean Griswold has been writing about
the fifth amendment in Harvard Law Review.

Mr. Jackson. I suggest you read what the distinguished Los Ange-
les jurist, Lloyd Wright, president of the American Bar Association,
has said on the same subject. There is a decided difference of opinion
in this area. You have one opinion, many hold another.

Mr. Deinum. This country has gotten great by differences of
opinion.

Mr. Jackson. Exactly. So leave us with ours.

Mr. Deinum. Surely.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think there should be no question
or doubt about the witness understanding what the position of the^^

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1483

committee is on the question of waiver. The witness has admitted
Communist Party membership between 1946 and 1950, and if it is the
committee's view that that is a waiver of the right to rely upon the fifth
amendment as to questions relating to what he knows about the Com-
munist Party during that period of time, I think he ought to be told
that specifically, because that is our only purpose of questioning him.

Mr. Doyle. Did you hear and understand Mr. Tavenner's observa-
tion?

Mr. Deinum. Yes, sir.

Mr. Doyle. I wish to state for the benefit of the witness and his
distinguished counsel by his side, that we four members of this com-
mittee think it did and does constitute a waiver and we are going to
proceed on that basis. And every time I direct you, if I do, from here
on, to answer a question it is with that premise in mind, among others.

Mr. Moulder. May I say I didn't understand he admitted his Com-
munist affiliation between the years of 1946 — I thought you said you
joined the Communist Party and became affiliated during the year of
1946 ; is that correct ?

Mr. Deinum. I joined, I forgot the date, I am not very good on
dates, I know, I think it is during 1946, must have been early 1946,
and it ran up through the middle of 1950. That is what I said.

Mr. Moulder. During the year 1946 you did join the Communist
Party?

Mr. Deinum. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed at the time you became a
member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Deinum. I was employed at a small company operating at the
Warner Bros, lot as a technical adviser on a motion picture that was
being made.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of that picture?

Mr. Deinum. Cloak and Dagger. [Laughter.]

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain employed at that place?

Mr. Deinum. I was employed there, it must have been up July 1946,
because at the end of July I went to Europe, I went to Holland.

Mr. Tavenner. You were in Holland, you told us, several months.

Mr. Deinum. Two and a half months.

Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed when you returned from
Holland?

Mr. Deinum. When I returned I was employed at another small
company at Universal International lot.

Mr. Ta\tenner. What was the name of the company?

Mr. Deinum. It is out of existence. It was called Diana Produc-
tions.

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain employed by that com-
pany ?

Mr. Deinum. Up to the middle of, I think about August 1947, some-
thing like that.

Mr. Moulder. While you were in the Netherlands did you come in
contact with or have any conference or meet anyone that you knew to
be a member of the Soviet Union or representative of the Communist
g;overnment in Europe?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. I am afraid I will have to decline that, Congressman,
on the grounds I have stated. It implies associations.

1484 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. SciiERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion of Mr. Moulder.

Mr. DoTXE. I so direct you.

Mr. Deinum. I must still decline on the grounds stated.

Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment after August
1947 '^

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. Well, sir; from 1947 to 1949 I did free-lance research
at various places, a little job here, a little job there.

Mr. SciiERER. May I interrupt. We didn't ask him what his pur-
pose was in visiting the Netherlands. Why did you go to the Nether-
lands ?

Mr. Deinum. I will tell you, sir. My father and my mother and
my whole family are all living there. I hadn't seen them for 8 years.
I was anxious to see them.

Mr. Scherer. Was that your only purpose ?

Mr. Deinum. That was my only purpose.

Mr. Tavenner. What type of free-lancing work was this you were
doing ?

Mr. Deinum. Research, library research. I am very handy in a li-
brary. I know the rules of research. I have always been at home in
libraries so I can dig up information.

Mr. Tav-enner. Research in what field ?

Mr. Deinum. In most any field.

ISIr. Tavenner. I am asking you what was the research field in which
you did this work from 1947 to i949 ?

Mr. Deinum. In all kinds of fields, sir. I mean a library is a big
place with information on all kinds of subjects.

Mr. Tavenner. Was it a basis for writing ?

Mr. Deinum. Sometimes for writing, yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you at any time a screen writer ?

Mr. Deinum. No, sir, I was the guy that supplied the material to
screen writers, sure.

Mr. Ta\^nner. I was going to ask if you assisted others engaged
in screen writing.

Mr. Deinum. You can't call it assisting when you give a man all the
materials he works with.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you furnish the material for the script?

]Mr. Deinum. That is right.

Mr. SciiERER. Isn't that assisting him ?

Mr, Deinum, He wouldn't look at it that way, I might.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat pictures did you furnish material for?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. I don't remember because I did research on a lot of
pictures that guys wrote stories for. Maybe never sell them, they just
die. I don't know if they ever became pictures, maybe some did. If
you have anything specific, I will be glad to answer.

Mr. Taa^nner. Let me call your attention to the testimony of Mr.
Robert Rossen, taken in New York in 1953. I am trying to find out
from you as to whether you have any knowledge of this. This is the
first opportunity we have had, I believe, to question any one engaged
in this field since Mr. Rossen testified in 1953. He described a con-
ference that had been held in Hollywood between Earl Browder, him-

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1485

self, John Howard Lawson, Sidney Buchman, and Max Silver. This
of course was prior to the time you became a member of the Communist
Party.

Mr. Kossen described in the course of his testimony, because I cannot
take time to read it to you, I must describe it only in very general
terms, that the writers, screenwriters, were a very important sector
of Communist Party activities, and that if a screenwriter could become
really proficient in his art he would be able to influence by his own
personal success many others in the field of communism.

I will not attempt to describe it further, but that was the nature
of it.

I asked him what device, if any, was used to carry out those direc-
tions from Earl Browcler and he said one of the devices was the
establishment of a writers' clinic, a clinic to be attended by young
writers, persons who had not had much experience in the held. It
would seem to me from your own description that you may have or
could have learned something from such a clinic.

Mr. Deixum. 1 am just telling you, sir. I am not a writer.

Mr. Tavexner. You are a research specialist from your own state-
ment, who collected material to be used for screenwriting. _

Did you learn anything about the existence of a screenwriter's clinic
or did you ever attend one of them composed solely of members of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Deix-^um. I have to decline to answer that on the grounds I have
already stated, but I want to add I have nothing to do with writing.
I am not a writer.

Mr. SciiKRER. Are you refusing to answer it because you had notliing
to do with writing?

Mr. Deixum. No, sir : I want to answer it. English is not my native
tongue.

Mr. ScHERER. You do very well.

Mr. Deixum. To make it verj^ clear, I decline to answer that ques-
tion on the grounds I have stated, because it implies an activity and
association and 5'ou know my position on that.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.

Mr. Doyle. You understand the question? I direct you to answer
the question.

Mr. Scherer. The committee believes his admission of membership
in the Communist Party waives any right to refuse to answer questions
concerning his activity within the party.

Mr. Deixum. I must decline again. Unfortunately it is becoming
as formal as a peasant's dance. You do this and I do that. I don't
mean to be obstreperous. This is the position I took. One has to be
consistent within one's position.

Mr. Tavexxer. Did you refuse to answer the question after being
directed by the chairman to answer ?

Mr. Deixum. Yes, sir.

Mr, Tavexxer. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
the group of the Communist Party with which you affiliated was
a group within Hollywood composed of persons working in the mov-
ing picture industry in any capacity ?

Mr. Deixum. I must decline to answer that on the grounds I have
stated.

1486 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer that question.

Mr. Deinum. I decline to answer again.

Mr. Tavenner. How many persons composed the Communist Party
group with which you affiliated ?

Mr. Deinum. It is the same question and I give the same answer, I
decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Deinum. I decline.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the objective of the Communist Party
group to which you were assigned ?

Mr. Deinum. I decline to answer that question on the grounds 1
have stated.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Deinum. Same answer, sir. I decline to answer.

Mr. Moulder. May I ask what was your objective? You said you
would give us your opinions.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. My objective, sir ?

Mr. Moulder. Your objective in joining the Communist Party.

Mr. Deinum. I will be glad to answer that. If I have had one
characteristic all my life, it is abiding curiosity about everything. I
have never wanted to take anything on anyone's heresay. I wanted to
experience things myself. I believe in firsthand exploration. The fact
that I have come to this country at all is an example of my curiosity.
The fact that I find myself here, it may seem like the proverbial quan-
dary, but here I am.

Mr. ScHERER. You say it was your curiosity that caused you to come
to the United States ?

Mr. Deinum. Yes, I collected pictures since I was 4, wanted to come
here since I can remember.

Mr. Scherer. Wasn't it more than curiosity ?

Mr. Deinum. To cause me to come to the United States ?

Mr. Scherer. Yes.

Mr. Deinum. It was curiosity. It becomes a great deal more with
experience. May I answer Representative Moulder first?

Mr. Scherer. Now you are answering my question.

Mr. Deinum. I wasn't through. I don't want him to feel slighted.

Mr. Jackson. Was it your curiosity that took you into the Com-
munist Party ?

Mr. Deinum. Basically ; yes, sir. I don't know if I can make this
clear, my whole field of interest is art-history, relation of art to society,
relation of film to society, much philosophy has had a great deal to
offer in that field. Many great people, it is a natural curiosity.

Mr. Doyle. Was it curiosity that made you become a citizen of the
United States ?

Mr. Deinum. I became a citizen of the United States because I
wanted to. I didn't give up my former citizenship easily, didn't give
it up easily, it was a considerable struggle for me to become an Ameri-
can citizen and I am happy I did. I did it because I liked this country,
I have seen a lot of this country, I have tried to get to kjiow it, its
traditions, history. I am about as well acquainted with it I think as
«.nyone.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1487

Mr. Moulder. I am sorry to prolong this questioning. A while ago
you refused to answer my question as to whether or not you contacted
or conferred with a representative of the Soviet Union or of the Com-
munist movement while visiting in the Netherlands. You refused to
answer that.

Mr. Deinum. Under ordinary circumstances I would be glad to
answer that, but here my answer is I would be waiving something that
would open up a whole area of questions I do not want to answer, as
I have indicated.

Mr. Moulder. An additional question : Did you join the Communist
Party or believe in the Communist Party before you went to the
Netherlands, or after you returned from the Netherlands ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. This was before.

Mr. Moulder. It was before you went to the Netherlands.

Mr. Deinum. Yes, sir.

Mr. Moulder. During the year 1946 ?

Mr. Deinum. That is correct.

Mr. Moulder. That was the onlj^ time you were out of Los Angeles.
I wanted to nail that point down. Therefore you affiliated with the
Communist Party here in Los Angeles.

Mr. Deinum. If you reason that, it could be anywhere from here to
Holland.

Mr. Moulder. Did you ?

Mr. Deinum. I am sorry. Will you restate the question ?

Mr. Moulder. You say it was possible for you to be affiliated with
the Communist Party between here and Holland.

Mr. Deinum. I presume it would be.

Mr. Moulder. Were you ?

Mr. Deinum. I would like to answer it, sir, but I must decline on the
grounds I have stated because of the waiver.

Mr. ScHERER. He opened tlie door when he said it could have been
any place between here and Holland.

Mr. DoYLE. I direct you to answer that question.

Mr. Deinum. I must decline to answer it on the grounds I have
stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Were any of these research activities in which you
were engaged carried out as a result of an assignment by the Com-
munist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. I decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a document entitled "House Committee
on Un-American Activities" consisting of 44 pages of research work
with your name appearing at the top of it. Will you examine it, please.

(Document handed to witness; witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. Is that your handwriting at the top of the docu-
ment?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. You are not examining the handwriting, I notice.

Mr. Deinum. Yes, I am looking at the document.

Mr. Tavenner. Is that your handwriting at the top of the docu-
ment?

Mr. Deinum. May I have just a minute, sir ?

1488 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Are you consulting counsel, is that the purpose ?

Mr. Deinum. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Go ahead.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. After all, it is a simple question as to whether or not
that is your handwriting.

( The witness conferred with his counsel, )

Mr. Deinum. I decline to answer that question on the grounds I have
stated.

Mr. Tavenner. What is the name appearing in ink at the top of
the page ?

Mr. Deinum, It is obviously my name, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. But you refuse to answer as to whether or not it is
your signature ?

Mr. Deinum. Yes ; I do, sir.

Mr. Ta\^nner, Is that document a document which you prepared
as a result of the curiosity that you had about the Committee on Un-
American Activities?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. I have to decline to answer,

Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, it represents a direct assign-
ment by the Communist Party to you to do a job on the Committee
on Un-American Activities ; isn't it?

Mr. Deinum. I don't know" what you mean, sir, by doing a job. If
I look at this thing here it just gives quotations from the Congressional
Record, s]:)eeches, editorials, and all that, I don't know whether you
would call that doing a job,

Mr. Tavenner. What do you call it ?

Mr. Deinum. It is a collection of materials.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you prepare it at the instance of the Communist
Party?

Mr. Deinum. You bring in the Communist Party and I must decline
to answer on the grounds I have stated earlier,

Mr. Ta\^nner. Wliat other assignments in the research field did you
undertake besides that one ?

Mr. Deinum, A lot of them.

Mr. Tavenner. Name them.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. This will be quite difficult offhand.

Mr. ScHERER. Name those you remember.

Mr. Deinum. I am trying to, sir.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. If you can direct me to something specific, sir, I will
be irlad to answer. Omnibus questions are very difficult.

Mr. Tavenner, I am sure you know more about that than I do, sir.
I will have to ask that you answer the question. I can't testify about it.

Mr. Doyle. Do you remember the question ?

Mr. Deinum. Yes, I remember the question.

Mr. DoyijE. I direct you to answer the question,

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum, Well, sir, this question being asked in the context
of relations with the Communist Party, and I have not admitted or
denied anything at all that this had anything to do with the Communist

COMMUXIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1489

Party and I must decline to answer this question on the grounds I have
stated.

Mr. Tavexxer. Did you deliver a copy of this 44-page report, on
the Committee on Un-American Activities to each of the members
of the Communist Party group to which you belonged ?

Mr. Deixum. You are talking about activity and of course I decline
to answer it on the grounds I have stated.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.

Mr. Doyle. I do direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Deixum. I decline to answer it.

Mr. Tavexxer. Do you desire to state to the committee the reasons
for your getting out of the Communist Party in 1950, if you did ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deixum. Yes.

Mr. Tavexxer. I will give you an opportunity to do so if you care to.

Mr. Deixum. Well, sir, they are manifold, I would say. In general
I lost interest, ideas that I had used to have began to reassert them-
selves. I come from a Calvinist background back home. There was
something narrow in the policies in relation to the field I was working
in. My field is art -history, relation of the art to society. This question
of abstract art Avhicli I am in favor of are not necessarily against

Mr. Tavexxer. May I interrupt ?

Mr. Deixum. Yes.

Mr. Tavexxer. "Was there an effort 'oy the Communist Party to
influence you in the practice of your art that you spoke of ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deixum. That would refer to an activity, sir, and I would
decline to answer that question.

Mr. Scherer, I ask that you direct the witness to answer that ques-
tion.

Mr. DoYLE. I do direct you to answer it, sir.

Mr. Deixum. I must decline on the grounds I have stated.

Mr. Scherer. Have you told us all of the reasons why you got out
of the party ?

Mr. Deixum. It is a very complicated long thing. I don't know- — —

Mr. Scherer. Didn't you ever finally come to the conclusion that
the Communist Party is a criminal conspiracy dedicated to the over-
throw of this Government by force and violence ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, Deixum. It gets into the field of activity again.

Mr. Scherer. That is not activity. That is asking you whether
you did not come to a conclusion. No activity. That is asking you
for an opinion that you told us you were going to freely

Mr. Deixum. If you ask me do I believe in overthroAving this Gov-
ernment by force and violence, I say, No. I have never done anything
like that or anything remotely close to it.

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Tavenner asked you. Witness, your reasons for
getting out of the party, and you named some reasons which to me
were somewhat inconsequential and I asked you whether you never
came to the conclusion that the Communist Party was a criminal con-
spiracy dedicated to the overthrow of this Government by force and
violence.

1490 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. If I had found any evidence of what you just stated,
the first thing I would have done is go to the FBI and would have told
them about it.

Mr. ScHERER. You never found that ?

Mr. Deinum. No, sir; I never found any evidence to that effect.

Mr. ScHERER. With your reading of all of the court decisions you
said you read and the studies you have made, you haven't seen where
the highest courts of this land have said that the Communist Party
is a criminal conspiracy dedicated to the overthrow of this Govern-
ment by force and violence ? You mean you have never seen that ?

Mr. Deinum. I have seen that.

Mr. ScHERER. In the court opinions.

Mr. Deinum. Yes ; but you asked me and I said the only knowledge
that is important knowledge to me is firstliand knowledge, knowledge
of things I can touch and see. The knowledge where I can say I was
there. Well, in relation to that I must say no such knowledge has
ever come to my knowledge, I would have gone to the FBI right off
the bat.

Mr. ScHERER. You wouldn't rely on the findings of the Supreme
Court that that is a fact ?

Mr. Deinum. The Supreme Court found this later. I was in a long
time ago. Four or five years ago.

Mr. ScHERER. They found it out, the Supreme Court said that be-
fore 1951.

Mr. Deinum. I must also state up to that point I had not done
much legal research. This is lately. My whole work lies in arts, film,
art history. This is my life. I spend most of it in motion pictures
and teaching students.

Mr. ScHERER. So the only reasons that you got out of the Coirmiu-
nist Party or severed your connections with the Communist Party
were those you have given us ?

Mr. Deinum. I can't say they are the only reasons. This is hardly
the place. Congressman Scherer, to think real straight. If we can
have an evening off and you have a couple of drinks and let's think,
I could work out more reasons. This is unusual circumstances to try to
push out reasons like a sausage. Every word I say is scrutinized,
every word I say may be a lethal weapon used against me. I am here
under penalty.

Mr. Scherer. You are well able to handle yourself.

Mr. Deinum. I am trying to.

Mr. Scherer. The only question is, I was wondering whether or
not one of the reasons — and I gave you the opportunity to say it —
one of the reasons you got out of the party was because you came tO'
the final conclusion that the Communist Party or the Communist
conspiracy was such as I have stated.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Doyle. Is there a question pending ?

Mr. Ta\tenner. I would like to ask another question.

Will you tell the committee, please, who were members of the Com-
munist Party associated with you in Communist Party work?

Mr. Deinum. Well, sir, on the basis of w^hat I stated, I decline to
answer that question.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1491

Mr. Jackson. I ask that the witness be directed to answer that
question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Jackson, And stress again that the committee does not accept
that answer in what it considers to be a waiver of privilege.

Mr. Doyle. You understand that ?

Mr. Deinum. I understand it.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer it.

Mr. Deinum. I decline to answer it on the grounds I have stated.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Moulder ?

Mr. Moulder. You have stated and admitted that you did join and
became a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Deinum. Yes, sir.

Mr. Moulder. During the year 1946.

Mr. Deinum. That is right.

Mr. Moulder. Can you tell us how you know that you were a mem-
loer of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. What makes you believe you did join the Communist
Party in 1946?

Mr. Deinum. Well, sir, giving an answer to that would be admitting
an activity and open up a whole field of questions.

Mr. Moulder. You have opened it up by saying you did join and
l)ecame

Mr. Deinum. I opened it up — I will not admit — this is a big argu-
ment. You must understand my position, that I don't think I have
opened it up. You do — it is your right and it is, as a matter of fact,
your duty to explore this.

Mr. Doyle. We understand we have some rights and so do you, thank
God we both do in this country, we have rights and must protect them.

Mr. Moulder. You say you did join the Communist Party in 1946?

Mr. Deinum. Correct.

Mr. Moulder. You say it was after you returned from the Nether-
lands ?

Mr. Deinum. No, sir ; I said it was before.

Mr. Moulder. Before you went to the Netherlands.

Mr. Deinum. Yes.

Mr. Moulder. Now my question is, you say you joined, and what
do you mean by joining?

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Deinum. That would involve an activity, as counsel points out,
and I agree with him, and that being the case I would have to stand on
these grounds that I do to decline to answer the question, however
much I would like to answer it.

Mr. Moulder. Did you receive a membership card ?
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Deinum. It is the same question, sir, it is an activity and the
same answer. I decline.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, sir.

Mr. Deinum. I decline again.

Mr. Moulder. Did you pay dues in the Communist Party?

Mr. Deinum. This is again an activity and again the same answer.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

1492 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Deinum. I hate to be a nuisance, but I must decline.

Mr. Moulder. Did you ever attend what you consider to be and
what you understood to be Communist Party meetings?
(The witness conferred with his counseL)

Mr. Deinu3i. It is again referring to an activity on my part and
the answer would be the same.

Mr. Doyle. I dn-ect you to ansAver the question.

Mr. Deixum. I decline again.

Mr. Moulder. Did you ever attend any meeting of any sort where
subversive activities were being considered against the Government of
the United States?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. No, sir; I most certainly never did attend any such
meeting. As I told you before. If I had'attended any such meeting I
w^ould have been at the FBI the same evening or same morning. I have
always been a good citizen and I have tried to be one and I feel very
conscious of my responsibilities and that is what I would have done.

Mr. Moulder. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of any infor-
mation of subversive activities ?

Mr. Deinum. No. sir. I do not. If I did I would have been right
down where I said I was going to be. I think that is what the FBI
is for and in that respect I would cooperate.

Mr. ScHERER. "Will you yield a minute ?

Mr. Moulder. Yes.

Mr. ScHERER. Did you ever go to the FBI and tell them about indi-
viduals who were active in the Communist Party?

Mr. Deinum. I would have if I had thought they were guilty of any
crimes or anything subversive. I surely would have.

Mr. ScHERER. You know the Federal Bureau of Investigation is
constantly seeking to determine who are members of the Communist
Party, do you not? You know that, don't j^ou?

Mr. Deinum. I have heard that.

Mr. ScHERER. You were in the Office of Strategic Services.

Mr. Deinum. Yes.

Mr. Sciierer. And you know the Office of Streategic Services was
interested in knowing who were members of the Communist Party.

Mr. Deinum. I don't think it was one of their main fields of activity.

Mr. ScHERER. I didn't ask you whether it was one of the main fields
of activity. I am asking whether it was a fact that the Office of Stra-
tegic Services during the time you were in it was constantly seeking to
determine who were members of the Communist Party because the
Office of Strategic Services at that time had come to the conclusion that
the Communist Party was a subversive party dedicated to the over-
throw of all non-Communist countries ? Dictn't you learn that while
you were a member of the Office of Strategic Services?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. I reluctantlv come to the conclusion I have a real good
answer for you — that I have learned, come to the conclusion any dis-
cussion I engaged in as to what I was actually doing will only get me
further in trouble than I am already.

Mr. SciiERER. You know, as a matter of fact, from vour service in
the Office of Strategic Services during the war that the Federal Bureau
of Investiiration and also Army Intelligence — and OSS was a part
of Army Intelligence, was it not ?

COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1493

Mr. Deinum. No, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Wasn't it?

Mr. Deinum. No, sir. OSS was a completely autonomous organiza-
tion operating under President Roosevelt on secret funds.

Mr. Scheker. Right. You know tlie Federal Bureau of Investiga-
tion and the Office of Strategic Services then placed individuals in
Communist Party cells for the purpose of determining the member-
ship of such groups, do you not ?

Mr. Deinum. I never heard of OSS doing that. OSS didn't oper-
ate in this country. OSS operated overseas.

Mr. ScHERER. Overseas, then. Weren't they interested in determin-
ing overseas wlio were members of the Comnuniist Party ?

Mr. Deinum. My only recollection of OSS was

Mr. Scherer. You say that is your recollection. You know, as a
matter of fact, they did want to determine-

Mr. Deinum. As a matter of fact, I am telling you that all they were
doing when I was there is fighting Nazis.

Mr. Jackson. Tliat is hardly the case, because there was a ])eriod
during the lifetime of the Office of Strategic Services when there were
two Communist cells operating in the agency. If they didn't catch
any Communists that is not too much of a surprise.

Mr. Scherer. Let me finish.

Mr. Deinum. This is without my knowledge. I ought to add that.

Mr. Jackson. Were you a member of the cell in the Office of Stra-
tegic Services?

Air. Deinum. No, sir.

Mr. Jackson. You were not?

Mr. Deinum. No, sir. I wasn't a member of the Communist Party
then.

Mr. Jackson, You were not ?

Mr. Deinum. No, sir.

Mr. Jackson. Were you in any other Federal employment other
than OSS ?

Mr. Deinum. No, I think OSS is the only Federal employment I
have ever had. Never worked for any other.

Mr. Scherer. The witness did not answer my question whether or
not he hasn't had knowledge for a long time that the Federal Bureau
of Investigation placed o])eratives within Communist cells for the
purpose of determining who the members were.

Mr. Deinum. I knew. That was in all the papers for years.

Mr. Scherer. Everybody knows that.

Mr. Deinum. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. You just said a few minutes ago if you had any in-
formation you would have gone to the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation but you never reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
even though you had been a member of the Office of Strategic Serv-
ices, any knowledge you had of members' activities in the Communist
Party, did you ?

Mr. Deiis^um. Sir, one thing in OSS they taught us, a man is mno-
cent until proven guilty, and there was no evidence I could bring
against any man to make him guilty of anything.

Mr. Scherer. That isn't my question. Nobody was being tried.
You knew the Federal Bureau of Investigation— and you knew that
better than most people — was vitally interested in the case of outbreak

1494 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

of war or any other national emergency, and wlio every Communist
was in this country. Didn't you know it and don't you know it
now?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. I don't know much about the interior operations of
the FBI. All I know is stories in the newspapers.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Moulder.

Mr. Moulder. Continuing with my question, you say you first joined
the Communist Party because of curiosity.

Mr. Deinum. Curiosity, respect I had gained for Communists dur-
ing the war. I had to do a great deal of investigation of underground
activities in the Netherlands which we got through people that came
out of underground newspapers.

Mr. Moulder. You mean because of your sympathy for the Com-
munist cause ?

Mr. Deinum. Not sympathy. I didn't know much about them up
to that time. These people were considered heroes in my country.

Mr. Moulder. Going back to your reason because of curiosity, that
curiosity continued for a period of approximately 4 years?

Mr. Deinum. Three and a half or four years.

Mr. Moulder. During that 4-year period of time your curiosity
wasn't satisfied ?

Mr. Deinum. That is right.

Mr. Moulder. Until 1951.

Mr. Deinum. 1950, 1 said, sir.

Mr. Moulder. 1950. During that period of time what did you learn
about the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. You stated a moment ago you have never observed
nor did you come in contact or have any knowledge of any subversive
activities or actions of disloyalty

Mr. Deinum. That is right.

Mr. Moulder. On the part of those with whom you were associated
as members of the Communist Party. In view of your statement in
tJiat respect, certainly you have opened up very clearly the subject and
the proper question of just what was discussed by you and your fellow
members of the Communist Party.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. What were your purposes and objectives and what
was your philosophy and belief as a member of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. My philosophy and belief is a looking for the rela-
tions that exist between phenomena of art and the society in which
they find themselves.

Mr. Moulder. I am referring to the activities of the Communist
Party of which you were a member in Los Angeles and to which you
have already testified.

Mr. Deinum. Well, sir, that would be again talking about activities,
and I ruled this out myself by taking the stand I did.

Mr. Moulder. I can't understand why for a period of 4 years your
mere curiosity would keep you in a Communist Party organization
unless there was some activities on the part of that organization which
attracted your attention to continue affiliation with it.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1495

Mr. Doyle. I think it should be evident that the witness had a con-
tinuing and very abundant supply of curiosity.

Mr. Deinum. That I do, sir, and I hope I never lose it.

Mr. Moulder. Just what did you do as a member of the Communist
Party which evidenced your membership in the party ?

Mr. Deinum. This is of course the same question in different form
asking about activities and on the basis I answered before

Mr. Moulder. What is your present position now ?

Mr. Deinum. What I am doing, sir ?

Mr. Moulder. Yes.

Mr. Deinum. I am sorry. I didn't understand the question.

Mr. Moulder. Are you a teacher now ?

Mr. Deinum. I am a teacher now, sir.

Mr, Moulder. In what school ?

Mr. Deinum. University of Southern California.

Mr. Moulder. How long have you been so engaged ?

Mr. Deinum. Three and a half years.

Mr. Moulder. During that period of time have you continued to
attend any Communist Party meetings ?

Mr. Deinum. No, sir.

Mr. Moulder. Have you been influenced by your prior association
with the Communist Party in your teachings in that institution ?

Mr. Deinum. No, sir. As a matter of fact, as I told you, I ceased
belonging to the Communist Party in 1950, I went back to UCLA
for a year.

Mr. Moulder. You say you ceased to belong to it. How did you
cease ; how did you disassociate yourself with membership ?

Mr. Deinum. That is the same question again. You are asking
about an activity and I decline to answer that. I do want to state
that my teaching now has no relntion to any of that at all. You can
ask my students, you can ask my colleagues. I have a very good record
as a teacher, if I may say so myself.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman, he said he associated himself with
the Communist Party and is no longer a member, and I asked him
how he disassociated himself with the Communist Party and he
declined to answer.

Mr. DoTLE. I direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Deinum. I decline for the reasons I have given you.

Mr. Doyle. I think I understood you to say two of the reasons that
you left the Communist Party were, first, that you lost interest.

Mr. Deinum. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. The other was on account of your Calvinist background.

Mr. Deinum. I said, sir, that a number of the beliefs I used to hold
began to reassert themselves. This is not just my Calvinist back-
ground. I have held lots of beliefs all my life, be curious about all
philosophies, I have talked to hundreds and thousands of people, it all
has a bearing on it.

Mr. Doyle. What made you lose the curiosity you had in the Com-
munist Party ? Why did you lose that curiosity or that interest after
about 314 or 4 years? You said you lost interest in it. What caused
you to lose that interest ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

65500— 55— pt. 1 5

1496 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Deinum. As expressed in reading I did, books and statements
that came out, philosophy bscame too narrow for me, I needed a less
capricious philosophy, I needed a steadier one. I haven't found one,
that is true, I am looking for one.

Mr. Doyle. You say you needed a less capricious philosophy.

Mr. Deinum. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. You mean you arrived at the point where you found
the Communist philosophy as you read it and learned it to be was
capricious ?

Mr. Deinum. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. You know the meaning of the word capricious I am sure.

Mr. Deinum. Yes, I do ; and I used it deliberately.

Mr. Doyle. You found you couldn't continue to follow that capri-
cious philosophy of the Communist Party, is that right ?

Mr. Deinum. You might say that.

Mr. Doyle. That is one of your reasons. In view of your state-
ments, I think you said you had read Marxism and Stalin's books.

Mr. Deinum. No

Mr. Doyle. Wliat other Communist books ?

Mr. Deinum. I didn't say any such thing.

Mr. Doyle. You became interested in that philosophy ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Deinum. Well, sir, I have always done wnde reading in this
field. TVlien at Stanford

Mr. Doyle. Let me clarify my question. I am quite sure I heard
you say "I have studied Marxism."

Mr. Deinum. Yes, I have, but that predated my Communist Party
days.

Mr. Doyle. That is all right, and that is one reason you went into
the party, because you had studied Marxism ?

Mr. Deinum. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. In other words, it became attractive to your curiosity.

Mr. Deinum. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. As a result of your study of Marxism.

You also read Mr. Stalin's comments on communism, didn't you?

Mr. Deinum, Well, sir, I must say that the side of communism I
never could take was more strictly the political side because my inter-
ests are not political. It was in art. I read Plechanof and more
people that dealt with the cultural and artistic implications of
Marxism.

Mr. Doyle. You found Mr. Marx had written documents that you
found essential to read in order to understand ?

Mr. Deinum. Not so much Mr. Marx. It is people that based them-
selves on Marx.

Mr. Doyle. What year did you begin reading Marxism?

Mr. Deinum. Well, sir. this was already part of the reading that
was given us in the Latin School in Holland.

Mr. Doyle. About what year ?

Mr. Deinum. Tliat must have been in the middle thirties. Just part
of our curriculum. I took classes in it at Stanford.

Mr. Doyle. I wish to say to my colleagues here that I think at this
point I just have a very important decision, recent decision by a dis-
tinguished United States district judge right in this same building

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1497

today,- perhaps, and I just want to read 2 or 3 paragraphs from this
right on the question of the purpose of the Communist Party and
Marxism philosophy. I understand you to state, you never discovered
any intent to use force and violence by the Communist Party.

Mr. Deinum. Not in what I read.

Mr. Doyle. Xor in any of your readings ?

Mr. Deinum. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. Let me read you briefly 2 or 3 paragraphs from the
opinion of Hon. Leon R. Yankwich, district judge of the Southern
California District, right in this building on June 8, 1955. That is this
month. This is the case of United States of America, plaintiff, versus
Sam Title. I have selected just a few ])aragraphs ; it is very imporlant.
I will state to my colleagues we will get this into the record right here.

The honorable judge says this :

During the period witli which we are concerned in 1936 to 1941 a showing of
membership in the Communist Party was not of itself a bar to citizenship. Proof
of this must therefore show that at the time the defendant made the statement
and representations alluded to and took the oath of allegiance and within the
10-year statutory peric^d preceding the Communist Party was an organization
which advocated the overthrow of the Government of the United States by force
and violence. The evidence in the record, oral aud documentary, including the
documentary evidence offered on behalf of the defendant, shows conclusively that
this was the teaching of the Communist Party at that time between the years 1936.
and 1941.

I read again, skipping some because of lack of time.

The Constitution adopted in 1938 which was introduced by defendant —

right in this building —

shows as do other documents to be referred to, that the American Communist
Party ties its aims to those of the Communist International and the literature it
sponsored and circulated and which is before this court, the teachings of Marx
and Engels are accepted only insofar as they are modified and put into practice
by L?nin, Stalin and the Communist International and these teachings without
deviation urge not a change of the social system by the use of democratic insti-
tutions or legal means, but —

and this is the language of the scholarly judge right in this building
this month —

but a revolutionary change by force and violence.

Quickly skipping over to one more quotation :

We have confined ourselves so far to documents introduced by the defendant.
How anyone can find in them any advocacy of lawful means for effectuating the
aims of conununism or even lip service to democratic institutions, is beyond our
comprehension, for there is none, as appears more fully from other writings by
Lenin, which are in the record.

In one of them he states that the proletarian state can only be achieved
"through a violent revolution." This is repeated elsewhere. The Sixth World
Congress of the Communist International held in 1928—

the honorable judge went way back to 1928 —

states emphatically that Leninism is the dominant approach and that "the over-
throw of capitalism is impossible without force, without armed uprising and prole-
tarian wars against the bourgoisie."

The dictatorship of the proletariat is a revolutionary power based on the use
of force and violence against tlie bourgoisie.

I won't take longer but I thought it very appropriate. I will say to-
my colleagues in view of this scholarly gentleman, you say you read

1498 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Marxism and Communist literature, never read anything about the
use of force and violence. I want to say to you, sir, it wouldn't have
been possible in my humble judgment for you to read what you said
you read without reading the same material the honorable judge read
in whole or in part, and the scholarly judge, in my book, is noted as
one of the most scholarly? judges in the Federal courts in our country
and when he treats a decision he treats it in a scholarly manner.

The committee is here because the United States Congress came
to the conclusion several years ago that the American Communist
Party for years has been tied up with the Communist International,
which, according to the honorable judge, as early as 1928 began writing
and preaching use of force and violence and preached it and taught it
while you were a member of it.

That is all I have to say. Proceed, Mr. Counsel, please.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Moulder?

Mr. Moulder. I have already asked my questions.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions. I would like to make a brief
observation. There are occasions and many occasions when we have
witnesses before the committee and we dislike very much to see them
take the course of action they pursue. I think by the very nature of
your work as a research analyst, your observation, your curiosity, you
were in a position to do a unique service to this committee, to the
Congress, and to this country in giving all of them the benefits of
youi^ personal and trained observations.

In your failure to do so, in spite of your going a half step forward
opening the door an inch and admitting your own membership, I place
you in no category other than the typical fifth amendment witness, and
I think you are deserving of no special consideration from any quar-
ter because of taking that position.

I regret very much as an individual that you have seen fit to do that.
That is all I have.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer.

Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.

Mr. Doyle. Any other questions ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Witness and Counsel. You are excused.

Mr. Tavenner. This is a good opportunity for a break.

(Whereupon the witness was excused.)

Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Doyle. The committee will please come to order.

Will you call vour next witness.

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Anita Schneider, will you take the chair.

Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Schneider, will you raise your right hand and be
sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but ithe truth, so help you God ?

Mrs. Schneider. I do.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANITA BELL SCHNEIDER

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please ?

Mrs. Schneider. My name is Anita Bell Schneider.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1499

Mr. Tavennee. Will you spell your last name, please ?

Mrs. Schneider, S-c-h-n-e-i-d-e-r.

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Schneider, it is noted you are not accompanied
by counsel. I think you are familiar with the practice of the com-
mittee in permittino: all witnesses to have counsel who desire it?

Mrs. Schneider. I don't think I require any, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a native of California, Mrs. Schneider ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes ; I was born in Burbanl?:.

Mr. Tavenner. Burbank, Calif. ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?

Mrs. Schneider. In San Diego.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in San Diego ?

Mrs. Schneider. Since 1947.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
your educational training has been?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes ; I received my bachelor's degree at San Diego
State College, my majors were sociology, psychology, and economics.

Mr. Tav-enner. Have you served in any branch of Government
service during the period of the war ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes; I was in the Navy Reserve in 1944 and 1945,
I believe. I attended State college after that. I worked for the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation from 1951 until 1954, December 1954.

I am now employed as a group counselor for the county of San
Diego.

Mr. Tavenner. While you were in the Navy were you a member of
the organization known as the WAVES ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes ; I was.

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you engage in such service, that is,
service as a Wave ?

Mrs. Schneider. I was actively in the WAVES for about 17 months.
I was in the Naval Reserve for a period of about a year after my
discharge.

Mr. Tavenner. You say you worked for the Federal Bureau of
Investigation from 1051 until December 1954?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. In what capacity were you employed ?

Mrs. Schneider. I was an undercover agent.

Mr. Tavenner. In what area of California were you working?

Mrs. Schneider. Most of the time in San Diego, part of my work
was done in Los Angeles, part of it in Sacramento and Fresno, and
some in Chicago.

Mr. Tavenner. Did that employment require you to go through
the formality of becoming a member of the Communist Party ?

Mrs. Schneider, Yes ; I joined the Communist Party in the summer
of 1951.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. That was in the performance of your duties and not
because of any ideological conviction on your part, is that true ?

Mrs. Schneider. I had no curiosity about it before I was asked to
join the party by the Deputy Sheriff Newsom.

Mr. Jackson. Were you in the party as an undercover agent during
the time a subcommittee consisting of Mr. Doyle and myself were in
San Dieeo ?

1500 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, I was.

Mr. Jackson. Did you pass out some broadsides outside of the
hearin<T room, the Chamber of Commerce hearing room during that
period?

Mrs. ScHNEroER. Yes, I gave you one.

Mr. Jackson. I think you also hissed when I threw it away but I
will let that go. I was quite sure that I had seen you before. That
ib all.

It is a relief to see you again under quite different circumstances.

Mr. Tavenner. Now it is not my purpose in calling you as a witness
here in Los Angeles to go into the question of your activity within the
Communist Party in any detailed sort of way. You are subpenaed as
a witness for appearance at San Diego next week. Is that true ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, it is.

Mr. Tavenner. My purpose in asking you to come here is to tell
the committee about certain activities in which you were engaged while
a member of the Communist Party which would have a special interest
to the committee from the Los Angeles standpoint. So I am going to
ask you to restrict your testimony as much as you can to things that
occurred in Los Angeles. Where it is necessary to give a little back-
ground as to the activities in San Diego, that is of course proper, but
in the limited time we have I want to confine the testimony as nearly
as I can to activities which centered in and around Los Angeles.

After you became a member of the Communist Party at the request
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation were j'ou assigned to any par-
ticular type of work wiiich necessitated your coming finally to Los
Angeles from time to time?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, I was. My Communist Party assignment was
to become chairman of the San Diego Peace Forum. This necessitated
my coming to Los Angeles probably once a month, although it was
rather irregular.

Mr. Tavenner. I want to confine your testimony chiefly to your
activity in that organization and related organization.

You say you became the chairman of the San Diego Peace Forum.
Was that at the direction of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, it was.

Mr. Tavenner. Tell the committee, please, just how that occurred,
how you received that assignment.

Mrs. Schneider. The Civil Rights Congress was picketing the Hall
of Justice, I believe. Lolita Gibson, Arthur Stevens, and I.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat are those narnes?

Mrs. Schneider. Lolita Gibson and Arthur Stevens and I, Arthur
Stevens and Lolita Gibson were both members of the Communist
Party, the three of us drove to Los Angeles and on the way to the civil-
rights picket line we discussed what my future job in the Communist
Party would be, what my assignment would be. It was discussed
whether I should become secretary of the Independent Progressive
Party, an officer of the Civil Rights Congress or chairman of the San
Diego Peace Forum, Because I had not been known in San Diego as a
Communist Party member it was felt that my work would be more
valuable in the peace forum. I was assigned to that then.

Mr. Tavenner. Then you took over the position of the head of that
organization ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1501

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, I believe I still am, Mr. Tavenner, unless they
have had a meeting since.

Mr, Tavenner. That is, you were still head of the San Diego Peace
Forum until at least it was known that you were subpenaed as a witness
in these hearings.

Mrs. Schneider. That is true.

Mr. Tavenner. "When, as nearly as you can recall, did you assume
that position at the direction of the Communist Party ?

Mrs. Schneider. I believe it was in August 1951, either August or
September 1951.

Mr. Tavenner. How was the matter handled ? There were persons
who were active in that organization who were not in anj^ sense mem-
bers of the Communist Party; weren't there?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes. The peace forum was originally set up by
Dr. Harry Steinmetz and Arthur Stevens in San Diego. It had had
several meetings before I was chairman. Lolita and I drove up to see
Peter Hyun, head of the Southern California Peace Crusade. He in-
structed us as to how to set up the peace forum in San Diego, what
officers we were to have. I was assigned to the job as chairman. I was
to have no other Communist Party members on my executive board.

After we received detailed instructions we returned to San Diego
and called an open meeting of the peace forum. No one ran against
me, needless to say, and I was elected chairman.

Mr. Tavenner. Was that the first time that you had met Peter
Hyun?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, it was, that was the first time I had met him.

Mr. Tavenner. Peter Hyun was living in Los Angeles at that
time ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. What did you say was his position in the Ameri-
can Peace Crusade ?

Mrs. Schneider. I am not sure of his exact title. I believe it was
executive secretary. He was head of the Southern California Peace
Crusade.

Mr. Tavenner. When you say you and these other Communist Party
members came up here to get your assignments and directions, were
you getting your directions from Peter Hyun as an official of the
Southern Califoria Peace Crusade or were you getting them from
him in any other capacity ?

Mrs. Schneider. Both as head of the Southern California Peace
Crusade and as a fellow Communist Party member. Peter Hyun
described to me the meeting that he had just returned from in Chi-
cago. They had a big peace convention. It was s convention of the
American Peace Crusade. It had been decided at that meeting to
separate the American Peace Crusade into parts and California would
be divided into the Northern California Peace Crusade and I believe
under William Kemer, and the Southern California Peace Crusade
under Peter Hyun.

Peter Hyun said Mao Tse-tung had taught them the correct Com-
munist Party way to divide up into one small group and when one
small group was attacked it wouldn't destroy the others. For this
reason we were to form a separate group for the San Diego Peace
Forum and of course it was separate only in theory. We were to pay

1502 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

our share of the expense of the Southern California Peace Crusade and
of the American Peace Crusade. They were to send us speakers, they
were to send us pamphlets, petitions, and directions on operation of
the peace forum.

Mr. Doyle. May I interrupt, Counsel ?

Who did you say Peter Plyun told you had taught him how to man-
age this ? Who did you say ?

Mr. Schneider. He was taught by ]\Iao Tse-tung in China.

Mr. Doyle. Was Hyun a native-born American or do you know his
nationality ?

Mrs. Schneider. I am not sure of his exact national origin. His
brother, David Hyun, was born in Korea, I believe. Peter I think
"was born in Hawaii, which would make him theoretically an Ameri-
can citizen. He has spent some time in China under the direction of
Mao Tse-Tung.

Mr. Doyle. And he told you that definitely he had spent time
in China and received instruction from Mao Tse-tung ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. That is pretty serious business.

Mr. Tavenner. I think I should remind the chairman that this
committee heard considerable evidence in Hawaii in 1949 regarding
Peter Hyun, his activities as a member of the Communist Party in
Hawaii. And also Alice Hyun, his sister. There was considerable
evidence there of the baring of Communist Party documents in which
Alice Hyun took a leading part under the direction of Peter Hyun.
There were persons who testified that Peter Hyun had endeavored
to recruit them into the Communist Party, at least one person so
testified. j

Mr. Doyle. Thank you.

Mr. Tavenner. That may help to identify the individual to you.

Mrs. Schneider. Mr. Hyun used a very descriptive figure of speech.
He said it was like hitting a pillow with your fist. Even though part
of it was damaged, the rest was still intact.

Mr. Tavenner. He was the head of the peace movement, so-called
peace movement known as the Southern California Peace Crusade ?

Mr. Schneider. Yes, he was.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, how, from
the time of the receipt of those first instructions, you attempted to
carry out those directions and what part Peter Hyun had in the matter ?

Mrs. Schneider. Regularly there would be meetings of the Southern
California Peace Crusade executive board which I attended part of
the time at least. Discussion would be made of the past activities of
the peace groups in this area, criticism, constructive criticism, a
detailed outline of what their work was to be in the future. They
were sold literature, given leaflets, told about issues. We would bring
up any problems as far as original activities we wanted to discuss.
Then we would return to our own area and in my case it was, I would
discuss it with my Communist Party club and then with our San
Diego Peace Forum executive board and put them into effect.

Mr. Tavenner. When you returned the first time after receiving
your directions from Peter Hyun in Los Angeles, did you have any
difficulty in getting your Communist Party associates there to coop-
erate fully in the organizing of your peace forum ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1 503

Mrs. Schneider. The Communist Party itself cooperated completely
with me. Some of the individuals didn't want to accept the directives.
Arthur Stevens had been chairman of both the Independent Progres-
sive Party and chairman of the San Diego Peace Forum up until that
time and didn't want to give up his job.

Peter Hyun had told us to elect a chairman, a treasurer and a sec-
retary and to have no other official officers. When Arthur Stevens
conducted the meeting at which I was elected he announced his can-
didacy as program chairman. The other party members thought that
naturally this had been authorized and elected him.

Later I was having trouble with him. He wouldn't give up his
authority. He still wanted to boss the peace forum. So when one
of the speakers came to San Diego and Peter Hyun came with him
I brought up the problem. Peter Hyun gave him definite instructions
to stay out of the peace forum completely, and he did from then on,
Mr. Ta^-exner. Was he told where he was to expend his efforts ?
Mrs, Schneider. He was told to stick to the Independent Progres-
sive Party at that time. These directions were made at the closed
Communist Party meeting with Peter Hyun, Sender Garlin, How^ard
and Lolita Gibson, and that is all I can recollect at the moment.
Arthur Stevens also was there of course.

Mr. Tavenner. How were speakers selected that you were to use
in your peace forum ?

Mrs. Schneider. They w^ere the speakers who were on tour for the
American Peace Crusade. We would be told approximately their
arrival dates in this area at our regional executive board meetings.
Then either we would come to Los Angeles and make final arrange-
ments, telephone out or write to Peter Hyun and he would give a
definite date for their appearance.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Then the speakers that were sent to you were the
speakers for the American Peace Crusade?

Mrs, Schneider, Not always. On one occasion the national chair-
man of the National Council of American-Soviet Friendship was our
speaker. He was arranged for by Peter Hyun, however.
Mr. Tavenner. What was his name ? Do you recall ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, Dr, John A. Kingsbury.
He was also a Communist Party member.

Mr. Tavenner. Did Peter Hyun himself speak on occasions to your
organization ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, he did. On several different occasions.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Elizabeth Moos speak?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, she did. I think she gave a total of five
speeches in that area. We arranged it for her to speak repeatedly
in San Diego. She showed movies from the Soviet Union at these
meetings and spoke with them.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, it was our committee that made the
first investigation into this field and discovered that the secret post-
office box given by the peace organization in New York was actually
applied for by Elizabeth Moos. That was just a short time after her
son-in-law, William Remington, had been brought before our commit-
tee and had testified. There is considerable evidence of Elizabeth
Moos's Communist Party membership.

Mrs. Schneider. Mrs, Moos also said that she had been criticized
severely by the Communist Party because they felt that if she had

1504 COAIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

kept in closer contact with her family some of the testimony would
never have been given. She was also a Communist Party member.

Mr. Doyle. You mean the Communist Party leadership was object-
ing to an American citizen keeping in touch with her own family ?

Mrs. Schneider. No. They said if Elizabeth Moos had, I don't re-
member the exact details of the case itself, the "William Remington
case, either her daughter or William Remington gave testimony for
the Government and against the Communist Party. The Communist
Party criticized her. They felt if she had remained closer to them
and made better friends of them they would not have testified for the
Government against the party. She was in very great disfavor for
that reason.

Mr. Tavenner. You say this moving picture was shown by her.
Were there other Soviet pictures shown to your group ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes. She herself showed I think 35 films. The
peace forum also showed one called the Mussorgsky, an adventure in
Bokhara. The first was arranged through the National Council of
American-Soviet FriendshijD, the second was arranged through the
Southern California Peace Crusade. The film was made inside the
Soviet Union, and was completely pro-Soviet of course.

Mr. Tavenner. Here is a telegram addressed to you from Richard
Morford relating to that subject. Will you examine it and state
whether that is the same matter to which you have just referred?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, this is the telegram that I received and un-
derneath it is a bill for the film Mussorgsky, too.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to cffer the two documents in evidence and
ask that they be marked "Schneider Exhibits 1 and 2 (Los Angeles)"
for identification only.

Mr. Doyle. They will be so received and so marked.

Mr. Tavenner. Do 3^ou recall whether those pictures were shown
in lieu of your having some other speaker ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, I remember that. The Southern California
Peace Crusade, Peter Plyun, had arranged to have Hugh Hardyman
speak in San Diego. But Peter Hyun had made arrangements for
Hardyman to speak in two places, both at peace forum and for the
Hillcrest Unitarian Fellowship. It was discussed in party club
meetings.

Mr. Tavenner. When you say party club meetings, what do you
refer to ?

Mrs. Schneider. Communist Party club meetings, and it was de-
cided there was too much overlapping of membership, that one group
or the other would end up very much in the hole as money goes, that
I was instructed by Verna Danger, head of the Communist Party, to
come to San Diego and give Peter Hyun definite instructions not to
make arrangements for two groups, that the town was too small and
not enough people would attend each meeting. I gave him that
message.

Mr. Tavenner. That was all as a result of Communist Party con-
sultation and decision ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. I believe you have told us that your peace forum
was virtually a branch or was a branch of the California Peace Cru-
sade.

COMMXJNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1505

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, it was the local branch of the Southern Cali-
fornia Peace Crusade which was the regional head and of the Ameri-
can Peace Crusade, which was the national group.

It had been broken up following Mao Tse-tung's instructions.

Mr. Doyle. INIr. Tavenner, may I ask this question: All this time
you were an FBI agent ; is that correct ?

Mrs. Schneider. That is correct.

Mr. Doyle. And you also were one of the top Communist leaders
in the sphere about which you are testifying?

Mrs. Schneider. I didn't ever hold an official position in the Com-
munist Party. I was a member.

Mr. Doyle. You were merely a member. Do I understand from
your testimony that to]) Communist Party leaders in California like
Peter Hyun did tell that Mao Tse-tung of China had given certain
instructions for things to be done in our country ?

Mrs. Schneider. That is correct.

Mr. Doyle. Am I correct in that ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, you are.

Mr. Doyle. That the Communist Party in China, the Communist
leaders there, were reaching down into the State of California, the
citizenship, and telling them what they should do in the Communist
Party ?

Mrs. Schneider. Not only on this occasion, Congressman Doyle, also
Maud Russell was another speaker for the San Diego Peace Forum.
She also gave me directions that Mao Tse-tung had given her. She
said one of the instructions he gave her was to read ]:)apers like the
New York Times. Slie said the best weapons are their own words.
The best weapons to use against them are their own publications.
Taken out of context, of course.

Mr. Doyle. So to your personal knowledge, here were American
citizens and the Communist Party in California taking direct instruc-
tions from Mao Tse-tung, the Communist leader in China ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, sir.

Mr. Scherer. Pardon me. Do you know whether the two professors
who testified here this morning had knowledge of that ?

Mrs. Schneider. No, I don't, but they seemed to be extremely intelli-
gent people, and I don't understand how anyone could even have a
superficial understanding of Marxist theory and not understand that it
does involve force and violence.

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Schneider, did the San Diego Peace Forum
continue through your entire activity down there as an open branch of
the Southern California Peace Crusade or was there any change in the
organizational setup ?

Mrs. Schneider. There was a change. When Dr. John A. Kings-
bury and his wife, Mabel Kingsbury, came to San Diego they remained
in San Diego about a week and I was their chauffeur during that time.
They stayed at my house part of the time. Dr. Kingsbury gave me in-
structions to start reporting the meetings of the San Diego Peace
Forum to Richard Morford, who was the executive official — I don't
know his exact title — of the National Council of American-Soviet
Friendship in New York. I was to give him regular reports, keep in
close touch with him. He was going to start sending me literature. A
couple of months after that when Elizabeth Moos was in San Diego
she gave me instructions to start reporting to Reva Mucha, who was
head of the American-Russian Institute here in Los Angeles.

1506 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Tavenner. So that this peace movement which had be^un to
operate just through the organization of American Peace Crusade was
by this time branching out and becoming affiliated with those other two
organizations ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. And what are those organizations again ?

Mrs. Schneider. The American-Russian Institute and the National
Council of American- Soviet Friendship.

Elizabeth Moos was intensely interested in making it a real branch
of the American-Russian Institute. I brought it up at my Communist
club meeting, discussed it with Verna Langer, head of the Communist
Party, and she said although we would work with them closely, San
Diego was too small a city to have a branch of the American-Soviet
Friendship Council ; that we could call it a peace forum and continue
to work.

Mr. Scherer. As far as the Communists involved in this peace move-
ment, it wasn't a genuine peace movement ; was it ?

Mrs. Schneider. Not at all.

Mr. Scherer. It was merely part of the Communist or Russian
propaganda ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, it was. We received our instruction from
Peter Hyim here in Los Angeles. I would go to my Communist club
meetings, it would be worked out in very great detail even to the color
of the paper that we used to send out our mailing announcements,
exactly what would happen at the next meeting.

]Mr. Scherer. You recognized or the Communists recognized that
peace was something that everyone wanted and therefore they attached
the name of peace or peace movement to this front.

Mrs. Schneider. That is correct. They felt that in that way we
could get the use of churches to meet in, we could involve other people
and active church people and union people also. That was another
reason for making all the executive lioard members non-Communists.
It was felt they could attract outside people also.

Mr. Doyle. In other words, it was deliberate fraud and another
Communist fraud on the people of California and also elsewhere.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, it was. It is.

Mr. Doyle. You say it is?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. Is it doing anything now ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. She doesn't know whether she has been excommuni-
cated or not yet.

Mrs. Schneider. No.

Mr. Scherer. You came out from under wraps this morning; didn't
you?

Mrs. Schneider. No, I testified in Washington before the Sub-
versive Activities Control Board in March. That was the first time I
testified.

Mr. Tavenner. We think it is very significant that this switch
to the American-Russian Institute in making reports — I hand you a
bulletin entitled "Digest of Soviet News," by the Russian-American
Institute, and a check for $2. Will you examine them and tell me
what they are, please ?

(Representative Jackson left the hearing room.)

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1507

Mrs. Schneider. Digest of Soviet News is a little publication put
out by the American-Kussian Institute here in Los Angeles. There
has been a change in format since that time. I discussed it with Keva
Mucha, thinking that it was— well, she thought it would be an excellent
idea for me to give her names of people that she could mail it to in San
Diego. She said raising the money wasn't important. It didn't
matter whether they subscribed to it or not. The important thing was
for the information to reach them. 1 told her I didn't feel I could give
her a complete list but if she would mail me copies of this I would see
they reached the people. She did that over quite a long period of time.

This check I believe was for my own subscription and may have in-
cluded some literature with it. I don't remember exactly.

Mr. ScHERER. By this subterfuge which you explained to us, they
got a lot of fine people here and elsewhere throughout the country to
support this movement which was actually originated and controlled
and dominated by the Communist Party ?

Mrs. Schneider. No, sir. I didn't mail them. I destroyed them
instead of mailing them. Therefore I did not.

Mr. ScHERER. Maybe you didn't understand my question.

Mrs. Schneider. Maybe I didn't.

Mr. Scherer. My question didn't relate to your last bit of testimony,
but it related to the formation of this whole organization which you
have described. My question was : By this subterfuge of representing
that the Communist Party was genuinely interested in peace and using
the words "peace movement," which all of us are interested in, the
Communist Party succeeded in getting a lot of fine people who gave
their support — unwittingly, of course — to this movement.

Mrs. Schneider. That is true. Kichard Morford through the na-
tional council sent me many hundreds of dollars in literature explain-
ing that paying for it was completely unimportant, that the important
tiling was to get it to the people. I was also given literature to take
to the ministers of two churches that I attended in an effort to get them
to be more active in the peace movement.

Mr. Scherer. Of course those ministers who did support this did
so unwittingly in most instances, did they not? By unwittingly I
mean not knowing that the whole program was controlled and domin-
ated and instigated by the Communist Party,

Mrs. Schneider. We weren't successful in getting them to cooper-
ate at all.

Mr. Scherer. Those prominent individuals whom you approached
and who did cooperate in most instances, did so unwittingly, did they
not?

Mrs. Schneider. Completely.

Mr. Scherer. Completely unwittingly, but their money and their
prestige in the communities and in their various professions was used
then by the Communist Party to promote this particular front organ-
ization or movement ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes; it was. The Communist Party felt that
through the peace movement many people could be activated in work-
ing for peace, particularly people such as I who had a husband in the
service and other families with their sons and husbands in service-
Mr. Doyle. What year was this ?

1508 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mrs. Schneider. This extended the whole time I was active in the
peace movement from 1951 until 1954.

Mr. ScHERER. As recently as 1954, did you hear her say, so far as
she knew ?

Mrs. Schneider, Our last meeting of the San Diego Peace Forum I
can remember was in December 1954.

Mr. ScHERER. Did that movement suggest that the individuals who
became part of this write their Members of Congress in order to affect
their action on certain legislation?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes ; tJiat was one of our major drives.

INIr. Scherer. To vote for less appropriations for defense of this
country?

Mrs. Schneider. Bring our boys home from Korea. Five-Power
Peace Pact, many other issues of interest to the Communist Party.

Mr. Scherer. Naturally the Communist Party would be vitally in-
terested in weakening this country. Right?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, sir.

Mr. Scherer. One of the means of doing that would be through in-
fluencing well-meaning people to lobby their Congressmen in order
to accom])lish that, is that right ?

Mis. S( iiNEiDER. That is completely true. They carried it out exact-
ly that way.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the attitude toward the draft bill and
appropriations for military training?

Mrs. Schneider. Well, we carried on as much activity as possible,
the group was rather small but we did everything possible following
the directions from Peter Ilyun in Los Angeles. We collected signa-
tures for "Stop the War in Korea Now," and asking for Five-Power
Peace Pact, et cetera, we wrote letters. I received an answer from
President Eisenhower's secretary, I believe.

Mr. Scherer. It was just another way then that the Communist
Party acted to weaken this country.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes; it was a method of putting pressure on Gov-
ernment officials to undertake the action that the Communist Party in
this country wanted.

Mr. Scherer. That is what we refer to as one form of subversion,
through the cold war.

Mrs. Schneider. Exactly.

INIr. Tavenner. The coinmittee in various places over the country
in which it has traveled has found numerous examples of so-called
peace literature relating to the Korean war and with various issues
that arose near the close and after the close of the Korean war.

To what extent was Peter Hyun responsible for any activity of that
character in your group and in the Southern California Peace Cru-
sade movement ?

Mre. Schneider. He completely directed our actions. At the end
of the Korean war it was felt that the need for an active peace
movement was less imperative so our Communist Party directed us
to go into other forms of activity. We were directed by Peter Hyun
at a workshop in May, I think 1953, that we should join other or-
ganizations and become the sparkplugs to create committees for
peace wherever possible, not to act as the San Diego Peace Formn
any longer.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA ] 509

Mr. Tavenner. Did your group engage in any activity of any char-
acter designed to help the Koreans ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes. Peter had asked for suggestions for issues
that might be used. We still needed an issue. The Korean war was
over. One of the suggestions made was to attack John Foster Dulles,
I believe, the "Down Dulles" movement similar to the attack on Sena-
tor McCarthy later. One of the suggestions I made, I discussed wuth
Peter Hyun and Bernadette Doyle here in Los Angeles, I made the
suggestion

Mr. Tavenner. Were those discussions on the Communist Party
level or on the Peace Crusade level '^

Mrs. Schneider. On the Communist Party level.

Mr. Scherer. You said similar to the attacks on Senator McCarthy
later.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. Ought we to interrupt to find out what that was ? Tell
us about that.

Mrs. Schneider. I am leading to it. I am anti-McCarthy. But
one of the major plans of the Communists a couple of years ago w^as
an attack on Senator McCarthy, to get rid of Senator McCarthy.

Mr. Scherer. Will you tell us something about the program and
methods in the attempt to get rid of Senator McCarthy ?

Mrs. ScHXEiDER. Just discredit him in general, in every way pos-
sible, distribution of leaflets, we had many leaflets given us on that,
attacking his war record, attacking his personal history. It was
written I think, formally in the Connnunist Party platform.

Mr. Scherer. And the material in the leaflets and the substance
of those leaflets were supplied originally then by the Communist
Party «

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

As I was saying, you asked me about other activities. The sugges-
tion I made for an issue to be used that we could base our peace forum
activity on, was the collection of clothing for Korean children. I know
the Quakers had undertaken sucli a drive. I felt if w-e used that as a
basis for the American Peace Crusade that we could show people how
tragic war was, wdiat its efl'ect was on families, as my Communist
Party contribution. I suggested it to Bernadette Doyle and Peter
Hyun, but they said no, that we shouldn't collect clothing for Korean
children because the clothing would go to the South Korean children
as well as to the North Korean children. If clothing was sent to the
South Korean children it would be necessary for the United States to
give them less aid. By not giving the Southern Korean children food
and clothing, the Government of the United States would have to do
so and it would cut down on the resources of the Government. Berna-
dette Doyle and Peter Hyun both said for that reason it was not a good
issue.

Mr. Tavenner. There was no real interest in helping the Korean
children as such. It w^as just what value could be made out of it as a
Communist Party issue.

Mrs. Schneider. In fact, the idea was vetoed for that very reason,
because it would cost the United States Government money if they
vetoed it. So they did. In spite of the fact that both North Korean
children and South Korean children would freeze.

1510 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. ScHERER. That is a little inconsistent with the philosophy of
communism that is preached to the masses, isn't it ?

Mrs. Schneider. It isn't inconsistent with the actual philosophy of
the Communist Party, however.

Mr. Scherer. Actual philosophy. That is why I qualified the state-
ment by saying philosophy preached to the masses.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. In order to attract them to the Communist standards.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes; if it was something going on to cost the
"United States Government money every person in Korea can starve.

Mr. Scherer. But on the surface the philosophy that is preached
to the masses is that the Communist Party would be the first to help
the Korean children.

Mrs. Schneider. Sure.

Mr. Scherer. Actually of course they didn't practice what they
preached.

Mrs. Schneider. Not at all.

Mr. Tavenner. You referred earlier in your testimony to Dr. John
A. Kingsbury being a member of the Communist Party. Will you tell
the committee, please, on what you base that testimony, that statement ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes. Dr. Kingsbury stayed at my home several
days and stayed in San Diego a longer period of time.

Mr. Tavenner. Can you fix that date approximately?

Mrs. Schneider. It would have been in the winter of 1953, 1 believe,
January of 1953, I think. I have a little difficulty remembering. It
was a long time ago.

Mr. Tavenner. Very well. Proceed. "WTiat occurred?

Mrs. Schneider. At tliat time in San Diego the Communist Party
was having no educational activity of any sort. I appealed to Dr.
Kingsbury for suggesting what we could do in San Diego with the
lack of leadership we had. Dr. Kingsbury told me how he had
set up Communist Party discussion groups at his home, leadership
was not important, that it could be done just by group discussion in-
stead. He said that in his Communist Party discussion group they
had invited speakers such as the Secretary of the Soviet Embassy in
Washington, the one being deported for espionage right at that time.

Nathaniel Weyl was a frequent visitor to that group. Nathaniel
Weyl, Jr., I think, was one of Alger Hiss' fellow Communist Party
club members. Dr. Kingsbury told me of his early activities before
the Communist Party was organized in tlie Socialist Party, and how he
became a Communist when it was set up. He told, he discussed Marxist
theory with me and found that I was weak in dialectical materialism.
He suggested that I take a course at the California Labor School in
San Francisco in dialectical materialism which is Communist Party
philosophy. He asked me if I, first he asked me about crossing the
border near San Diego. How hard it would be for people to go back
and forth across without passports, for example. He asked whether he
or Paul Robeson could go back and forth without being questioned.
I said probably they couldn't but anybody else could, that they were
too well known. He asked me if I would be willing to carry messages
back and forth across the border, and I told him I would, and he said
I would be contacted about a month later.

The Communist Party discussed it, however, and since my husband
was still in the Navy the idea was vetoed.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1511

Mr. Tavenner. Wliy was that?

Mrs. Schneider. They felt that as long as my husband was in the
Navy and had not been given a dishonorable discharge it was better to
keep my open Communist Party activities at a minimum. Actually
what they had in mind was that his job could be used as a weapon
against him. If I became active in something of that sort he would be
blackmailed into giving information a<jainst the Communist Party.
I discussed my husband's Navy career with Dr. Kingsbury asking him
if my husband should reenlist, and Dr. Kingsbury said it didn't matter
since he only had a few years to go in regard to retirement.

He said any way we have Communist Party at all levels of all of
the branches of the Armed Forces and he didn't see why my husband
should make any difference, that he should not go out of the Navy.

Dr. Kingsbury also spoke of his trips inside the Soviet Union. He
suggested I go to the Stockholm Peace Conference and showed me
how easy it would be for me to go across the bay into the Soviet Union.
He said he would give me the names of his personal friends within the
Soviet Union whom I could contact when I went. He suggested I take
a course in the Kussian language being offered here at the high school.

That is all I can remember right now. He said he knew he was just
being used really as a front in the National Council of American-
Soviet Friendship because of his age, it wasn't possible for him to be
very active in it but that they were welcome to his name if they
wanted it.

I remember something else Dr. Kingsbury said. He offered to give
me the names of some of the people inside the Soviet Union that he
had escorted around over the country. I said it would be rather hard
to write back and forth to them. lie said no, on the contrary it was
very simple because letters or gifts or messages could be brought back
and forth through the Soviet Embassy and it was never questioned
when it was done in that way.

]\Ir. Tavenner. That means use of the diplomatic pouch.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes ; it does.

Mr. Tavenner. Was any discussion had as to how passports would
be obtained to travel in China. Do you recall any discussion of that
subject?

Mrs. Schneider. I remember Dr. Kingsbury said he was chosen to
go to the Chinese Peace Conference, especially, because he was already
abroad and didn't have to get an American passport. He said there
was never any problem if you were an accepted party member, there
was never any problem within the Soviet Union or within the People's
China. He said when he went to China they had assigned someone
to be a ghost writer for him and this young woman had written articles
that they put in the newspaper under his name and he was then paid
for them. That paid the expenses.

He said the same thing was done inside the Soviet Union, they would
assign someone to him, he would discuss with theni and they would
write the article, it would appear in the Soviet Union and he would
be paid for it and that would cover his expenses completely.

Mr. Doyle. "Wlio was this Dr. Kingsbury ? What was his connec-
tion ? Where was he from ?

Mrs. Schneider. Dr. Kingsbury was chairman of the National
Council of American-Soviet Friendship at the time. He was, I hate

65500— 55— pt. 1 6

1512 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF,, AREA

to admit it, he was one of the New Deal fellows in Washington, D. C.
He referred to Harry Hopkins as his protege, his boy. He said that
an interview Harry Hopkins had with Stalin would never have taken
place if Dr. Kinijsbury hadn't given Hopkins leaflets and pamphlets
and discussed it with him. Therefore, Stalin was willing to talk to
him a longer time because Hopkins knew what he was talking about.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you.

Mr. ScHERER. Where is Kingsbury today ?

Mrs. Schneider. The last I heard he was still living in Connecticut.

Mr. ScHERER. Doctor of what ?

Mrs. Schneider. I think his degree was in education. I am not
certain.

Mr. Doyle. I tliink you indicated he was an elderly man.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. Do you know whether or not he was a member of the
Communist Party at the time you conferred with him ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, he was.

Mr. Doyle. You know that of your own personal knowledge ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes. He gave me a long list of books that I should
read to increase my Marxist understanding, he discussed what my
shortcomings were and my weak spots in my knowledge of Marxist
ideology.

Mr. Moulder. When did all these conversations take place?

Mrs. Schneider. During the week that he stayed with me in San
Diego in January or February of 1953.

Mr. Doyle. Was tliat he and his wife?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a photostatic copy of a letter dated
December 29, 1952, written to you by Peter Hyun, asking that you
make some arrangements for Dr. Kingsbury to come to San Diego.
Does that letter have reference to the trip you have been speaking of?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes; he helped make the final arrangements for
his appearance in San Diego.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
•that it be marked "Schneider Exhibit No. 3."

Mr. Doyle. So received and so marked.

(The exhibit referred to is as follows :)

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1513

ScHNEiDEE Exhibit No. 3, Los Angeles

■ ooM «ie • SI* wifT si» (TiiiT • let amciiii is. CAiireiMiA

MurgAi i2»3

12-29-52

Ura.inlta Schneller
tl68 ChMrlea Street
La Ue«a, Calif.

Dear lire. 8ohnel4er:

I am aenlliiK you thle note to tell you or our maee meeting
which Is announoed In the encloeed leaflet, but more parti-
cularly I -ant to tell you that Dr. and Mrs. Kln<?ebury plan
to so to aan Dle«o from here after our Embaeay meeting. If
you ooull arrange a meeting for him and hie wife, who alao
has a Btreat deal to offer, for the weekend of the 9-10-11
of Jnnuary, they will be very haooy to aceaic. We alao wioloae
a few data on the bloj^raohy of Dr. JClnRabury which ml«bt help.
Pleaae let ua know Immediately eo that can make the neeeeaary
arranijements with Dr. Jtl.itjBbury.

Your financial reaponalblllty would be their traTelln« and
llvlnK expenses ( i am sure they will oe srlad to live with any
friends If that -ere poaslble) pluse a mlnlmuB of $26.00 for the
entracrement. In any oase, you have to decide quickly and let
ua know definitely of your plana.

Rescarda f^om all of ua.

sincerely youra,

Peter Hyun /
Ezec.Dlreot/r

M.^

1514 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Tavenner. After Dr. Kingsbury left San Diego, did you re-
ceive a letter from him ?

Mrs. Schneider. I received a letter from Mabel Kingsbury, Mrs.
Kingsbury, after that.

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a letter bearing date of February 18,
1953, which closes "sincerely yours, John and Mabel Kingsbury," and
ask you if that is the letter to which you referred.

Mr. Doyle. Was that the husband and wife that lived in your home
in San Diego about a week ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, they stayed in my house I think about 3 days
and because they were crowding our family they stayed in a San Diego
hotel for the rest of the time and I would take them out and drive
them around town.

Mr. Tavenner. I would like to read a part of this letter, dated.
February 18, into evidence instead of placing the whole letter in
evidence.

Dear Anita: I wonder if you think about us as often as we think and talk
of you and your lovely family and comfortable home where we spent such
delightful days. And we are eager to hear from you. How did the pictures
of Mr. Kingsbury come out?

The next paragraph, Mr. Chairman, relates to staying at certain
individuals' homes in Seattle, or in the State of Washington, which
probably has no place in this record, so I will skip that.

Then the letter closes with :

Warmest regards and good wishes to you all and sincere thanks for all you
did for us.

Sincerely yours,

John and Mabel Kingsbury.

Mrs. Schneider. Also in addition to the letter they sent me the
book, The Truth About the Soviet Union, by Sidney and Beatrice
Webb, I believe.

Mr. Mour^DER. The testimony about Dr. Kingsbury, as to what his
official position was or what his association was with the Communist
Party is not clear in my mind.

Mrs. Schneider. I don't know what his exact job was in the Com-
munist Party. He gave me detailed instructions, however, on how to
set up Communist Party discussion groups, told how he had done so
in his area.

Mr. Moulder. Was he assigned to confer with you for that specific
purpose by someone ?

Mrs. Schneider. No. You see, he was on the national level but he
was traveling around the country as a speaker. He was just giving me
fellow comradely advice.

Mr. Moulder. He happened to be in San Diego making a speech?

Mrs. Schneider. For the San Diego Peace Forum.

Mr. Tavenner. At the request of Peter Hyun.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Moulder. He was there at Hyun's request ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Moulder. You have quoted him on some of the statements made
expressing his opinion or what purported to be his knowledge about
someone else. Mr. Chairman, I have forgotten the exact instances
where that occurred, but I think in those instances where it does occur
it should be stricken from the record.

COMMUNIST ACTIVmES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1515

Mr. Doyle. Probably that is true. What do you have in mind?

Mr. Moulder. For example, Harry Hopkins or any Government
official. I don't care who they are. When hearsay of that sort is
brought up when somebody said something to her about somebody
else, the man is dead, he can't deny it, and certainly any reflection on
the New Deal and that sort of thing I think has no place in this record.

Mr. ScHERER. Practically all her testimony relates to conversation
with Kingsbury.

Mr. Moulder. I am not criticizing. I say it should not be in the
record.

Mrs. ScHNEroER. I am a New Deal Democrat myself.

Mr. Moulder. It doesn't matter whether you are or not. It is what
goes in the record.

Mrs. Schneider. I used that as a way of explaining what his posi-
tion was of importance in the Government during the period of time.

Mr. Moulder. What I am saying is not based upon my opinion or
affiliation with a political party. I am saying that it is a question of
law and by fair rules of evidence I don't think what somebody said to
you about somebody else should go into the record, regardless of who
it is about.

Mrs. Schneider. I probably should have given you other jobs he
had. I think he was very important in the city of New York, I think
he was head of their entire medical department or something of that
sort. He is in Who's Who in this country. Was for years.

Mr. Doyle. ^Yliat is your thought ?

Mr. Scherer. The only time we have excluded hearsay evidence in
the 21/2 years I have been on this committee, and it has been the rule, is
relative to identification. The identifications of persons in the Com-
munist Party must be positive, direct evidence, but I have sat and
listened here today to hearsay evidence and we have always taken hear-
say evidence of the kind we are discussing now.

Mr. Moulder. You can prove anything by hearsay evidence.

Mr. Scherer. I understand that, but this is not a judicial body and
all congressional committees take hearsay evidence and we have a spe-
cific rule, however, which requires only direct and positive evidence,
and I think it is a good rule, when one is identifying an individual as
a member of the Communist Party. And we followed that religiously.

Mr. Moulder. What was said about Hopkins and his association
with Stalin.

Mr. Scherer. I think it is very pertinent evidence, evidence at a
very high level.

Mr. Doyle. Could you go back and read that, Mr. Reporter, and
identify that ?

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)

Mr. Scherer. That answer given by the witness was in response to
your question, Mr. Chairman, as to who Kingsbury was and what
position he occupied.

Mr. Doyle. If that goes out, much of the witness' testimony here
was volunteered conversation.

Mr. Scherer. I didn't ask the question.

Mr. Moulder. You know what I am getting at.

Mr. Scherer. The chairman asked the question.

Mr. Moulder. I reserve the right to object to the question and take
it up with the full committee. I wish to reserve it and I will leave it to

1516 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

the committee. Here is a man bragging about his importance, his
experience, and knowledge and association with certain important men
and in relating it to another person who in turn relates it to the com-
mittee, I don't think it is sound evidence or that it is relevant or
material.

Mr. Doyle. Your reservation and right to object before the whole
committee will be noted and reserved.

Mr. Tavenner. In the course of these occasions when you were re-
quired to report to Peter Hyun in Los Angeles, did you have occasion
to meet other persons who became known to you to be members of the
Communist Party ?

Mrs. Schneider. Not very many. Most of the Communist Party
meetings were in very small groups. I met other members on the
executive board of the Southern California Peace Crusade, but not in
their capacity as Communist Party members. I did, however, meet
Reva Mucha in that way as a fellow Communist Party member. Some
of the speakers that came to San Diego that were sent to San Diego by
the Southern California Peace Crusade were also known to me as
Communist Party members.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any knowledge of whether the Korean
Independence, a newspaper published in Los Angeles, was used by the
Southern California Peace Crusade ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes ; I remember at one workshop meeting, I don't
remember the exact date offhand. Diamond Kim, the editor, spoke.
They urged subscriptions to the Korean Independence; they urged all
of us to subscribe to it, of course.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Diamond Kim per-
sonally ?

Mrs. Schneider. I met him at that conference, but that was the only
way I knew him.

Mr. Tavenner. Then throughout practically the entire period when
you were a leader in the so-called peace movement, the San Diego
Peace Forum, you were in consultation with your Communist Party
group which had assigned you to that job, and you were in -contact
with Peter Hyun who gave directions as to its operations; isn't that
in substance what your testimony is ?

Mrs. Schneider. That is correct. We were given directions on is-
sues on strategy and I was given those directions by Peter Hyun. I
would take those directions to my Communist Party club meetings;
they would be worked out in detail ; the tactical methods of carrying
them out in San Diego would be worked out in detail at our Com-
munist club meetings.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think that is all I desire to ask
this witness here on this subject.

There is other information I want from her but it "will relate more
directly to the San Diego area.

Mr. Moulder. What period of time were you so engaged in this
work ?

Mrs. Schneider. From I believe — well, from March 1951 Deputy
Sheriff Eobert Newsom asked me to start attending meetings. I
joined the Communist Party in about August after I had started
working for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. Moulder. That was what year ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1517

Mrs. Schneider. That was 1951, also. I remained in the Communist
Party, I worked for the Federal Bureau of Investigation until De-
cember 1954 but I wasn't thrown out of the party until the first week
in January.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Tavenner, do you intend to ask questions con-
cerning the membership of which she had knowledge?

Mr, Tavenner, Yes; but that relates to the San Diego area, and
would not be of any particular value to the committee here.

Mrs. Schneider. Mr. Tavenner, I made a statement that I would
like to explain. I said I was tlu'own out of the Communist Party,
and I would like to explain it.

The head of the Communist Party found out that I was leaving San
Diego, I had rented my home and was packing. The day I left Verna
Langer called and asked me to come to her home, asked what I was
doing. I explained what I was doing. She said she hated to do it
but under the circumstances she had to inform me I was no longer
a member of the Communist Party. They don't let you move from
one place to the other without Communist Party approval prior to
your moving.

Mr. Tavenner, Just to bring your recollection up to date, Mr.
Chairman, Verna Langer w^as uncovered as a member of the Com-
munist Party in Michigan during the course of one of our hearings
there. All we were able to find out about her then in Michigan was
that she had been sent by the Communist Party to California. During
the course of our investigation at San Diego we found her the head
of the Communist Party in San Diego.

Mr. Doyle. Any other questions?

Mr, Moulder, Mr. Tavenner stated this witness of course will testify
in San Diego, I assume, next week before the committee there ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes.

Mr. Moulder. All this information will be brought out there.

Did you have any contact with any of the Communist Party leaders
in the Los Angeles area while you were working in the San Diego area ?

Mrs. Schneider. I had contact with some of them. I met in closed
Communist Party meetings Bernadette Doyle, Celia Shermis, who was
head of the Communist Party in San Diego when I first joined — is
living in this area now — John and Dorothy Kykyri. John Kykyri was
head of the Communist Party club for some time. I believe now he —
the last I heard he was employed by the People's World here in Los
Angeles. I met Beatrice Steinberg, who is the wife of one of the Smith
Act defendants.

I met Frank Spector. Frank Spector I knew as a Communist Party
member.

Mr. Moulder. Did vou know him here among the Los Angeles
cells?

Mrs. Schneider. No. I met him when he came to San Diego to
speak for the Civil Eights Congress.

I met Isobel Cerney, active in the San Francisco area.

Mr. Ta\^nner. She was from the San Francisco area instead of
from Los Angeles ; is that what you mean ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes. I met Rose Chernin. Marguerite Robinson
I knew as a Communist Party member from this area. Emil Freed I
knew as one. I can't remember any others right now.

Mr. Doyle. Any further questions ?

1518 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Moulder. I have none.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer?

Mr. Scherer. I have none.

Mr. Doyle. I have one question that might lead to two.

You said this : "It was discussed whether I should become secretary
of the Independent Progressive Party." I think you related that that
discussion occurred between you and two other Communists.

Mrs. ScHXEiDER. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. What did the Communist Party have to do with saying
whether or not you could become secretary of the Independent Pro-
gressive Party ?

Mrs. Schneider. We were taught in our Communist Party club
meetings that the Independent Progressive Party was originally
formed by the Communist Party with the idea of splitting the Demo-
cratic Party. It was felt that the head, who ran for President, Henry
Wallace, had enough following that he could carry a large portion of
the Democrats with him when he withdrew from the Democratic
Party, and formed his own. It was a wish on the part of the Com-
munist Party to form a third party. They felt that the United States
was ready for it.

I was active in the Independent Progressive Party. I was on the
county central committee at one time. I was State secretary, secretary
of the State convention, I was delegate to the national convention.

Everything I saw showed to me that the Communist Party was in
complete control of the Independent Progressive Party down to the
last detail.

Mr. Do^i.e. May I ask you tliis question : I have heard testimony
and evidence within the last couple of years or so that those who were
or are in the Independent Progressive Party who went into it from
the Communist Party or from other parties, are undertaking to infil-
trate and control both the Democratic and Republican Parties in
California. In other words, they are going into Democratic and
Republican committees wherever they can get a chance.

What is your knowledge of that, up to the time you were expelled
from the Communist Party in San Diego, less than a year ago ?

Mrs. Schxeider. That is exactly true. Congressman Doyle. We
were instructed, John Kykyri was head of the San Diego Communist
Party at that time. It was discussed in great detail. I was told to
change my registration from the Independent Progressive Party to
the Democratic Party and I did so. The wife of the head of the Com-
munist Party, Dorothy Kykyri, with whom I also met in our closed
Communist Party meetings, actually drove to the registrar of voters
with me and she also changed her registration to Democratic at that
time. That is one of the basic platforms of the Communist Party,
to change to one of the major parties. We were told we had to go
where the people are, that evidently this country was not ready for a
third party, that the Independent Progressive Party was a mistake,
that superficial political activity would be carried on at the last election
but that was all, that we should go into the other political parties.

It was decided to set up a third party a little bit in the future as
soon as the country seemed ready for it. Jt would be formed of small
farmers, Negro people, working people, and then it would be a real
labor party, that the Independent Progressive Party just wasn't ready.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1519

Mr. Doyle, One reason I asked that question was because this com-
mittee is assigned by Congress to investigate the extent to which Com-
munists are undertaking to infiltrate and control at any level of Amer-
ican life whether it is Eepublican or Democratic or where it is.

I think the leadership and membership of both tlie major parties
in California ought to take notice of your testimony and realize that
the Communists registered as IPP's, those who are Communists, but
registered as IPP's, are still Communists in heart and soul and they
are trying to infiltrate the Democratic and Republican Parties in this
State, no question about it. We ought to have our eyes open. It is
pretty serious business.

Mrs. Schneider, I was ordered into and became active in the Thir-:
tieth District Young Democrats. I became successful to the extent of
setting up meetings at which Rev. A. A. Heist spoke in San Diego
against your last San Diego meeting.

Mr. Doyle. You were giving handbills out, as Mr. Jackson called
to your attention, you gave him one and gave me one at the door
downstairs.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, the money for the leaflets was given to me by
the Communist Party, $40 was given to me to pay for our hall rent
to pay for the stamps, the paper, Dave Starcovik, a fellow member of
the Communist Party in San Diego, helped me mimeograph them.
We mimeographed them at the Independent Progressive Party office.
They were handed out by 1 ex-Communist Party member and 1 Com-
munist Party member at the hearings. We discussed it in great detail
just how that meeting would be handled, and it was done completely
under Communist Party instructions.

jSIr. Moulder. You say the FBI instructed you to join

Mrs. Schneider. No, the Communist Party instructed me to do so.
The FBI became very concerned about it and in fact they discouraged
me from becoming active in it. They did not want reports on what
the Democrats were doing in their activities and were only interested
in the part of my reports that related to the Communist Party activity
directly,

Mr. Scherer. You mean the FBI didn't want those reports ?

Mrs. Schneider. They did not want reports on the operations of the
Democratic Party. I was told that very definitely and repeatedly.

Mr, Tavenner, May I ask you, when you say this entire matter of
putting out these pamphlets in San Diego was organized and paid for
by the Communist Party, did you go to the Democratic Party organ-
ization, that is, the Young Democratic organization and obtain ap-
proval of doing this thing that you did, or not ?

Mrs. Schneider. The 30th District Young Democrats was just a
paper organization set up by a politician in an attempt to gain votes
in the Democratic County Council. It was not an active organiza-
tion at all, which is why I infiltrated it so successfully. The Democrats
who attended were very pleased because we were able to get a bunch
of left-wingers together. They thought they were just plain, ordinary
Democrats in the club,

Mr. Scherer. What year did this take place ?

Mrs. Schneider. April of 1954.

Mr. Tavenner. Since we are on this subject, I would like to ask
you whether or not you were in constant contact with the members of

1520 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

the Communist Party in San Diego during the course of the committee
hearings there.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes. I think I probably had one of the only tele-
vision sets in San Diego and the hearings were televised. We were
ordered at our Communist Party clubs not to attend the hearings after
we had distributed our leaflets, because we might be subpenaed in the
hearing room. That was the reason given and they knew photographs
were being taken so most of the Communist Party members came over
to my house and they all sat around the television set and groaned.

Mr. Doyle. About how many Communist Party members in San
Diego came to your house to see the Un-American Activities Com-
mittee hearings on television?

Mrs. Schneider. Off and on, probably only about 10.

Mr. DoYLE. You mentioned David Hyun.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. I think you mentioned him as the brother of Peter
Hyun.

Mrs. Schneider. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. What was David's connection, to your personal knowl-
edge, if any, with the Communist Party activities ?

Mrs. Schneider. David Hyun was a speaker for the Civil Rights
Congress in the summer of 1951, I believe, one of the first meetings
I attended. He was being deported, I believed, he is still subject to
deportation. He has been held at Terminal Island off and on since
then.

Mr. Doyle. What is your personal knowledge, if any, as to whether
or not he was at the time you knew him a member of the Communist
Party?

Mrs. ScHNEroER. I have no knowledge on that.

Mr. Doyle. You have no personal knowledge ?

Mrs. Schneider. No.

Mr. Doyle. Any other questions ?

Mr. Tavenner. What was the effect upon the Communist Party
in San Diego as far as you could determine of the hearings that were
conducted there ?

Mrs. Schneider. For probably a 4-month period there were very
few meetings, actually the Communist Party was almost completely
inactive during that period with the exception of our one Democratic
meeting. Since then San Diego has been very poorly organized, I
know it has never recovered from the last hearings. We haven't had
one successful meeting since that time, not one.

Mr. Doyle. Any other questions ?

Mr. Tavenner. When you referred to the Democratic Party meet-
ing, were you referring to this same organization that you spoke of a
moment ago, where the Communist Party used it to put out these
pamphlets ?

Mrs. Schneider. Yes, I was.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no other questions.

Mr. Doyle. Any further questions ?

Thank you, and on behalf of the United States House of Represen-
tatives, through this committee, it is my pleasure and pride to com-
pliment you on the service you rendered this committee. It must havo
been a serious inconvenience and sacrifice to you and your family in
many ways to enter the service of the FBI for this term of
years and to do this thing which must have been very unpleasant

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1521

and to repugnant to you. We want to congratulate you and thank
you for the service you rendered.

With that the witness is excused and unless there is something fur-
ther

Mr. TA^^NNER. We know there is at least one witness here now who
was subpenaed for today. I suggest if you want to begin at 9 you
announce it publicly and that witness will have to be here at 9 instead
of 9: 30.

Mr. Doyle. I recess this meeting of the committee at this time, to
reconvene tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock and I will instruct the wit-
ness who was subpenaed to appear today, and any witness in the room
subpenaed for today, reappear tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.

Mr. Tavenner. I think there are several witnesses in the hearing
room who are under subpena so make it applicable to all.

Mr. DoTLE. That is why I said all witnesses who were subpenaed
to report here today report here in the morning at 9 o'clock.

I want to thank the audience again for being so courteous and co-
operative.

("Whereupon, at 5 : 30 p. m. the committee was recessed, to recon-
vene at 9 a. m. the following day, Tuesday, June 28, 1955.)

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— PART 1

TUESDAY, JUNE 28, 1955

United States House of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,

Los Angeles^ Calif.

public hearing

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 9 : 30 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 518, Federal Building,
Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the subcom-
mittee) presiding.

Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle (chair-
man) ; INIorgan M. Moulder, Donald L. Jackson, and Gordon H.
Scherer.

Start' members present : Frank S. Tavenner, counsel, and William A.
Wheeler, investigator.

Mr. Doyle. The committee will please come to order and we will
begin our morning session.

Let the record show that Congressman Scherer of Ohio, Congress-
man Jackson of California and Congressman Doyle of California,
are here, constituting a quorum of the subcommittee of 4. Mr.
Moulder will be here in a few minutes.

I want to again thank the audience who are guests of the committee
for their courteous cooperation yesterday.

Are you ready to proceed with your first witness ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. Angela Clarke.

Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?

Miss Clarke. I do.

Mr. Doyle, Please take a chair and be seated.

TESTIMONY OF MISS ANGELA CLARKE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

EOBERT KENNY

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ?

Miss Clarke, Angela Clarke.

Mr. Tavenner, Is Angela Clark your professional name?

Miss Clarke. That is correct.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your actual name ?

Miss Clarke. You mean my married name ?

1523

1524 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Miss Clarke. Anj2:ela Wilkerson.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the last name, please?

Miss Clarke. W-i-1-k-e-r-s-o-n.

Mr. Tavenner. Are 3'^ou a native of California ?

Miss Clarke. I was iDorn in New York.

jMr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles ?

Miss Clarke. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. At this time I would like counsel to identify him-
self for the record, please.

Mr. Kenny. My name is Robert Kenny from Los Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in California?

Miss Clarke. Since 1937.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your pro-
fession is ?

Miss CJlarke. I am a free-lance actress.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been engaged in the field of acting since
1937 when you moved to Los Angeles ?

Miss Clx\rke. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?

Miss Clarke. I went througli elementary school, public school,
then I went to an academy; after that I went to Columbia Exten-
sion School of Journalism for a very brief time. At the same time
I had — no, shortly after that I liad v.'on the scholarship for an acting
school in New York. Before that I also went to the National Academy
of Design, and while I was in elementary school, I am a little con-
fused, I also went to the Art Students League.

Mr. Tavenner. During the period you have been in California
have you been employed in a way different from that of being a free-
lance actress ?

Miss Clarke. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. What has been the nature of that employment?

Miss Clarke. Oh, I worked as a cashier in a restaurant, I sold hats
in a department store.

Mr. Tavenner. I was referring to the profession of acting.

Miss Clarke. Oh, I am sorry. I thought you said work generally.
Yes, I worked on the stage and I did some radio.

Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time did you work on the
stage ?

Miss Clarke. Well, the work that I did didn't have pay. I ap-
peared in plays and it would be a play 1 year and maybe several
years later I miglit have a cliance to appear in a play. There wasn't
any continuity to the employment.

Mr. Tavenner. In a general way what was the period covered by
that type of employment ?

Miss CL.VRKE. Mixed in with the other, all sort of tied in together.
About 1938 until, oh, I would say about — I am pretty poor on dates.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. You stated you were employed as an actress in
radio ?

Miss Clarke. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us over what period you were so em-
ployed and by whom ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1525

Miss Clarke. Is there any specific matter in relationship to my
work that you wish to question me about ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, there is.

Miss Clarke. I object to the question on the ground that it doesn't
pertain to any legishitive matter and I wisli the chairman to formally
rule that I do answer on that.

Mr. Doyle. Miss Clarke, we believe it is pertinent and germane to
these preliminary questions, and I direct that you answer it.

Miss Clarke. What was the question again, please?

Mr. Tavenner. Will you read the question, please.

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)

Miss Clarke. You said something about radio, too.

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Miss Clarke. In about 1938 I worked on a program called Big^
Town and then there was some odd individual shows which I don't
remember. One particidar sliow or another, I can't recall the names of
those. But Big Town I believe was the only national program, one^
of real renown that I was on. Then recently about 2 years ago I ap-
peared on the Lux Radio program. I imagine that is about 2 years ago.

Mr. Tavenner. Between 1938 and 2 years ago weren't you employed
in the radio field as an actress ?

Miss Clarke. Not really, no.

Mr. Tavenner. Was it in motion pictures then that you were en-
gaged during that time ?

Miss Clarke. Primarily, yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you describe what your employment was in the
moving-picture field between 1938 and 1953 ?

Miss Clarke. I played character parts. Is that what you mean?
Character parts.

Mr. Tavenner. I am asking you.

Miss Clarke. Well, I should remember the first one, but I don't..
It was a small part at Republic and then the second one I remember
was the Hunchback of Notre Dame, at RKO. I remember on the
strength of that performance, which was a very small one, they wanted
me to appear in other pictures, but I was stricken with an illness which
forced me to go to tlie liospital and I couldn't avail myself of the
opportunity. I don't know if you are familiar with the acting busi-
ness. It is a very difficult one to really get in. And if you have the
good fortune to get what actors call a good part in a good picture, this
is like a windfall because that part acts as agent for you to get other
jobs. It was a real unfortunate happening for me to have to go to
the hospital because when you are not hot, as they call it, they forget
you and this one part in the Hunchback would have helped me to
move on in that field more regularly, but I couldn't avail myself of
that because I was ill.

JSlr. Tavenner. Approximately what was the date of your work at
Republic that you spoke of ?

Miss Clarke. It, I believe, was around 1938 or around that time.

Mr. Tavenner. And what was the date of your work at RKO?

Miss Clarke. Around that time, too, shortly after that, I believe.

Mr. Tavenner. Now, if you will bring us up to a more recent date,
please. You were in the moving-picture field up into-^ —

Miss Clarke. I didn't work, in the beginning I didn't work solely
in the motion-picture field. Most actors in the free-lance field who

1526 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

aren't under contract and who are just beginning and trying to estab-
lish themselves have to work at other jobs sometimes to keep going.

Mr. Tavenner. I am speaking now of the moving-picture field.

Miss Clarke. I see. There was quite a jump after that and I be-
lieve it was around 1946 or 1947 that I got what I called my first job
that paid me anything.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of that job ?

Miss Clarke. The nature of it ?

Mr. Tavenner. In 1947.

MIssClarbje. Nature? You mean the name of it ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, the name of it and by whom you were em-
ployed.

Miss Clarke. I have such a reluctance to name names of pictures
and people who employed me because my relationships with all the
studios have been very businesslike and very good. My work has
been very satisfactory and I feel publicizing them here is not some-
thing I care to do.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, nevertheless, we would like to know by whom
you were employed in 1947, the date you mentioned.

Miss Clarke. A picture called the Snake Pit about insanity by 20th
Century Fox. I was one of the insane women in the Snake Pit.

Mr. Tavenner. Was that in 1947 ?

Miss Clarke. Roughly around then. I am very poor on dates. I
don't quite recall.

Mr. Tavenner. How long did your employment last with 20th Cen-
tury?

Miss Clarke. I believe it was a week or two.

Mr. Tavenner. Then what was your next employment ?

Miss Clarke. Then I was in a picture called Undercover Man.

Mr. Tavenner. What was that date, approximately ?

Miss Clarke. I believe around that time. I think 1947.

Mr. Tavenner. By whom was it produced ?

Miss Clarke, Columbia Studios. On the strength of that picture,
which really was the first featured role, a very moving, sympathetic
role, I had to go through the preliminaries which are pretty rough,
you go through casting department, I just want to bring these things,
I don't know if you feel they are pertinent but it may help you realize
how difficult it is for actors in this business to really get along. Go
through casting departments, these are the first people you go to,
and if the casting man feels you are the right type he sends you up to
a higher casting person and then that person passes on you and then
he sends you to the director and then if the director feels that you
are right and he is not too sure of whether you are familiar with your
work, they say they will make a test and believe me, even the word
"test" is the thing that sort of freezes you up, it is a challenge and
if you make a good test and it happens to be the best test for the part
then they pass on it and you get the role.

So that first picture, Undercover Man, was done in this fashion and
I realized at the time, because of the emotional impact of the role, as
I say, very moving, that now after all this time it would really give
me a chance to show my talent, and show myself really, that I
struggled so long I began to wonder whether I was following a will-
o'-the-wisp and it was just some idle dream. I was very pleased and
flattered to know that, without liaving to go through any of the

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1527

preliminaries of seeing people, I was told I would have a part in
another picture and the name of that one escapes me, at the .same
studio.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the approximate date of that employ-
ment?

Miss Clarke. Well, 1947 or 1948 ; around that time.

Mr. Tavenner. Who was the producer of the picture that you
cannot recall the name of?

Miss Clarke. I don't know.

Mr. Tavenner. You cannot recall ?

Miss Clarke. It was Columbia. I said it was the same studio.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you proceed and tell us about other employ-
ment in 1948?

Miss Clarke. I don't know whether it was 1948, but if I am not
mistaken shortly after that I was interviewed for a part in a picture
called Captain Gary U. S. A., which Paramount produced and I was
very happy to get the part on the strength of seeing the picture that
I had done, the first picture I had done with Columbia. As I say, this
is how you are saved the torture of testing, you know, each time for
a part.

Mr. Tavenner. Does that carry you pretty well through the year
1948 in your record of employment ?

Miss Clarke. I believe so. Believe me, even in school dates were
something I couldn't

Mr. Tavenner. During the period 1947 to 1948 were you a member
of the American Federation of Radio Artists?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. I believe I was. Actors sometimes when they are
not working steadily in a certain field can get an honorable withdrawal
card and then as they are called for a job they get a renewal. If they
work a certain number of months past a given time after their with-
drawal they don't have to pay up back dues. That is the way of help-
ing an actor not to be burdened with the upkeep of the

Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any position in that guild?

Miss Clarke. No.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you during any part of that period from 1947
to 1948 a member of the Screen Actors Guild ?

Miss Clarke. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you occupy any position within the guild ?

Miss Clarke. No.

Mr. Tavenner. The committee's investigation discloses that during
the period 1947 to 1948 there was a group of persons within the radio
field, acting field, organized as a group or unit of the Communist Party
in which persons both from the Screen Actors Guild and from the
American Federation of Radio Artists and other units were members.

Were you a member of a group of the Communist Party within the
radio field ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question, but I want to state
that I am not now a member of the Communist Party. I was and I
would like to clarify my statement by saying that I am not going to
testify about my associations when I was a member of the Communist
Party and, that is, with others, and since any testimony about my ac-

65500— 55— pt. 1 7

1528 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

tivities while I was a member of the Commmiist Party would involve
others, I will not testify about my activities, either.

My refusal to testify about other persons or activities is solely based
on the first amendment supplemented by the fifth. And I would like
to talk about myself, if you like, or my membership in the Communist
Party, but that is all.

Mr. ScHERER. Do you feel. Miss Clarke, that to testify about your
associations with others in the Comnnmist Party would tend to in-
criminate you ?

( The witness conferred with her counsel. )

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously mentioned.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.

Mr. Doyle. Miss Clarke, I direct you to answer that question.

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and the
fifth amendments.

Mr. ScHERER. Is your refusal based on a belief that to answer might
tend to incriminate you ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer.

Mr. ScHERER. Do I understand you are invoking that part of the
fifth amendment which excuses you from testifying on the ground
that to so testify might tend to incriminate you ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. I invoke all of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. I think that in light of the position taken by the wit-
ness that she should be advised at this time and early in the hearing
that almost without exception — and I can think of no exception at the
moment— this committee has followed a policy of citing for contempt
before the House of Representatives those witnesses who have acknowl-
edged their own membership in the Communist Party and have de-
clined to answer further questions relating to their own activities, the
activities of others, or to the individuals with whom they were asso-
ciated in the party.

1 think that the record should show very clearly at this time that
this has been the policy of the committee and so there will be no mis-
understanding in the mind of the witness as to the possible conse-
quences of her refusal to answer as to the activities of others in the
party.

Miss Clarke. I understand.

Mr. DoYLE. Thank you, Mr. Jackson, and I might add to tliat state-
ment by my colleague that of course we have clone tliat and, as far
as we know, we expect to continue to do it because we believe we do
it in accordance with the legal structure of the High Court's decisions.
We believe, as a congressional conmiittee, it is our legal duty to do
that, and I want to add that to Mr. Jackson's appropriate statement.
So if I direct you to answer any question, it is because we believe it is
within the legal rights of a congressional committee to ask you to
answer those questions and also on the grounds, if I instruct you to
answer, it is because we want to make clear that we do not accept your

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1529

answer in claiming the amendments to the Constitution at certain
points as sufficient answer.

(The witness nodded affirmatively.)

Mr. Tavenner. In order for the committee to have some understand-
ing of the extent of your knowledge of Communist Party activities
in the radio field or the acting field, I want to ask you when you ceased
to be a member of the Communist Party, if you say you are not a mem-
ber now.

Miss Clarke. I believe it was around 1949.

Mr. Tavenner. You have had no Communist Party affiliation since
that time ?

Miss Clarke. That is correct.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you first become a member of the Com-
munist Party ?

JNIiss Clarke. I believe it was around 1942.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. I am not clear. I believe it was around the time that
it became a political association. I forget. Around that time.

]\Ir. Tavenner. Did you first join the Communist Party which was
later converted to the Communist Political Association?

Miss Clarke. I don't recall that very well.

Mr. Tavenner. You are not certain ?

Miss Clarke. No. ;

Mr. Tavenner. You did state that in 1942

Miss Clarke. Around that time. As I say, my dates are hard tot
pin down.

Mr. Tavenner. You may be in error a year or so either way ?

Miss Clarke. Vaguely around that time.

]\Ir. Tavenner. So from that period, roughly from 1942 until 1949
you were a member of the Communist Party ?

Miss Clarke. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time were you in Los An-
geles ?

Miss Clarke. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. And you engaged in the type of employment that
you have already described in the field of acting on stage and in radio,
and in motion pictures ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Scherer. Witness, do I understand you to contend that to an-
swer questions about your associates in the Communist Party during
that period would tend to incriminate you ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. I am sorry, but I have to refuse to answer that ques-
tion as previously mentioned.

Mr. Scherer. I think my question goes to the good faith of the
witness in invoking the fifth amendment, and I think she should be
directed to answer. I think I have a right to find out why she refuses
to answer about her associates in the party because you can't invoke the
fifth amendment to protect somebody else. I ask that you direct the
witness to answer.

Mr. Doyle. Before I do that, do you understand Congressman
Scherer's statement to me just now, his reasoning as to why he believes

1530 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

you cannot invoke the fifth amendment ? Did you hear him make that
statement ?

Mr. ScHERER. I will repeat my question to her and perhaps her
counsel can explain.

Do I understand that the basis of your refusal to answer questions
concerning your association in the Communist Party is that to so an-
swer might tend to incriminate you ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. If I were to answer that question, I would waive my
rights on the position I took before, which was refusal to answer on
the basis of the first and the fifth amendments. And with the clarifi-
cation that I gave as to why I took this position.

Mr. ScHERER. All right.

JNIr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, Witness.

Miss Clarke. I am sorry, but I exercise my privilege again.

Mr. DoTLE. Under the Constitution ?

Miss Clarke. Yes.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, it has been specifically spelled out
what we mean by the direction, and I am sure that comisel for the wit-
ness knows that and has advised her according to his best judgment.
To go into additional explanations every time a direction is entered is
probably going to consume a great deal of time. It has been made
clear that any direction by the Chair to the witness simply indicates
that the committee does not accept the invocation of the fifth amend-
ment as being either legal or in good faith, and that so long as the
witness understands that and she has indicated that she does, it would
appear to me we can save a lot of time by simply going ahead with the
directions.

Mr. Doyle. I agree with Mr. Jackson and I have directed you to
answer that question and you have answered that you pleaded your
rights under the Constitution.

Miss Clarke. Yes, that is right.

Mr. Doyle. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. Do you have knowledge of the existence of a Com-
munist Party cell or group within the field of radio ?

Miss Clarke. I exercise my privilege not to answer that question.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Witness, to answer that question.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. I ask this committee to give me the benefit of a formal
ruling as to whether it considers itself controlled by the decision of the
United States District Court (if the District of Columbia when it held
that Steve Nelson was not gD'ilt}' of contempt in refusing to disclose
the names of others, or his party activities, even though he admitted
that he had been a member of the Communist Party. I am handing
you copy of the Nelson decision which is reported in volume 103, Fed-
eral Supplement on page 215. In this connection I also ask the com-
mittee to consider before it makes its ruling on my objection the fact
that on May 23 this year the Supreme Court reversed the conviction
of Philip Bart, although the court below held he had waived his
privilege.

JNIr. Doyle. We will be glad to receive those. We have received the
same type of communication yesterday.

COMMUNIST ACTWITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1531

Miss Clarke. I was here.

Mr. Jackson. I hope it lasts through the hearing. It is getting dog-
eared.

Mr. DoYLE. This committee considers itself bound by the law of the
land and I direct you to answer.

Miss Clarke. 1 am relying on the courts rather than this commit-
tee's interpretation of the law, and will continue to stand on my
rights under the first amendment.

Mr. DoTLE. Proceed, Mr. Tavemier.

Mr. Tavenner. What group or cell of the Communist Party was
it to which you belonged ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. That is activity, so I will refuse to answer that on
the basis of the first and the fifth amendments.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness, if she says she is a
member of the Communist Party, certainly she has to answer what
branch or what cell or what part of the organization she was identified
with.

( The witness conferred with her counsel. )

Mr. DoTLE. I direct you to answer that question.

Miss Clarke. I exercise my privilege not to answer.

Mr. ScHERER. You say you were a member of the Communist Party.
Did you receive a Communist Party card when you joined?

Miss Clarke. I exercise my privilege not to answer that question,
sir.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness.

Mr. DoTLE. I direct you to answer the question.

Miss Clarke. I again exercise my privilege not to answer.

Mr. Scherer. Did you pay dues to the party ?

Miss Clarke. I repeat, I exercise my privilege not to answer.

Mr. Scherer. I request that you direct the witness to answer.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

Miss Clarke. I exercise my privilege again, sir.

Mr. Scherer. What were the circumstances of your joining the
party. Witness?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. Again I exercise my privilege. I didn't quite under-
stand the word "circumstances." So I am in doubt so I will exercise
my privilege not to answer.

J\Ir. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. Could you clarify what you mean by circumstances?

Mr. Scherer. I think you understand what the word "circum-
stances" means, and no matter how I clarify it I think you are going
to invoke the fifth amendment. What were the conditions under
which you joined the party? How did you happen to join the party?
That is what I mean by the word "circumstances."

Miss Clarke. You mean what were my feelings ?

Mr. Scherer. No ; I am not interested in your feelings. Wlio was
the individual that took your application ?

Miss Clarke. I exercise my privilege again, sir, not to answer.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct her.

1532 coMMinsriST activities in the los angeles, calif., area

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

Miss Clarke. I exercise my privilege not to answer.

Mr. Jackson. For the reasons previously stated ?

Miss Clarke. For the reasons previously mentioned.

Mr. ScHERER. 'VVliere did 3^ou become a member of the Communist
Party.

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Scherer. In what city ?

Mr. Doyle. May we have the complete answer as to why she re-
fuses to answer the question ?

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
first amendment supplemented by the fifth.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

Miss Clarke. I exercise my privilege not to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. State the grounds.

Miss Clarke. On the grounds previously mentioned.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you.

May I suggest that if you are going to plead your constitutional
privilege that you do it thus briefly each time in the interest of saving
time.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Kenny. She can just say "ditto."

Mr. Doyle. I would rather not have two dots. Proceed, Mr.
Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, the extent of
participation of the members of the guild to which you belonged in
the Communist Party movement ?

Miss Clarke. I exercise my privilege not to answer that question on
the basis of the first amendment supplemented by the fifth.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what were the
objectives of the Communist Party in the group to which you
belonged — that is, what they sought to accomplish ?

Miss Clarke. I exercise my privilege not to answer that question on
the basis of the first amendment supplemented by the fifth.

Mr. Tax'enner. Will you tell the committee, please, what you ob-
served of the methods used by the Communist Party to propagandize
the industry in which you were an important part ?

Miss Clarke. That is activity, so I exercise my privilege not to
answer that question on the basis of the first amendment supplemented
by the fifth.

Mr. Doyle. I am going to instruct the witness to answer that ques-
tion because as well as some other questions that is right down in
accordance expressly with our Public Law 601 under which the Con-
gress of the United States has instructed us to function. Did you hear
my direction. Madam Witness, to answer that question ?

Miss Clarke. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. ^Yliat do you do about it ?

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer on the basis of the first amend-
ment supplemented by the fifth.

Mr. Doyi^e. Very well.

Mr. Ta\'enner. Mr. Chairman, I am not certain whether you
directed her to answer the first question that I asked a moment ago
regarding the extent of participation.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1533

Mr. Doyle. I did not.

Mr. Tavenner. I think she should be directed, and I will ask the
question again.

Mr. Doyle. May I have the question read so the witness clearly
understands the question.

(The reporter read from his notes as follows :)

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, the extent of participation
of members of the guild to which you belonged in the Communist Party
movement?

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
first amendment supplemented by the fifth.

Mr. Tavenner. I think also the second question that I asked should
be read to the witness and she be directed to answer.

Mr. Doyle. Read it, please.

(The reporter read from his notes as follows :)

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what were the objectives
of the Communist Party in the group to which you belonged — that is, what
they sought to accomplish ?

Mr. Doyle. Did you hear that question reread ?

Miss Clarke. Yes ; I did.

Mr. Doyle. What is your answer to it ?

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question, too, on the basis
of the first amendment supplemented by the fifth.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
mentioned.

Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you refuse to testify as to any mat-
ter relating to the extent, character, and objectives of the Communist
Party within your own knowledge or observation ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. As I said earlier in this hearing, I would refuse to
testify about other people or activities.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you drawing any distinction between other
persons and activities from my questions relating to the extent, char-
acter, and observations of the Commmiist Party within your
knowledge ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. What specifically

Mr. Tavenner. You did not answer my question specifically. You
answered the question by making a statement and I want to know
whether you are making any distinctions from the question that I
posed. In order to clarify the matter, let me put the question to you
again :

You are refusing, are you not, to answer any questions that I might
ask you regarding your knowledge of the extent, character, and ob-
jectives of the Communist Party within the fields of your activities?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. That means activities, does it not?

Mr. Tavenner. It means information regarding your knowledge of
the things that I have asked you about, and you have refused to testify
to them. I want to make certain that you are deliberate in your
refusal.

1534 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Miss Clarke. As I understand it, this question seems to incorporate
the involvement of other people and activities and I therefore refuse
to answer on the grounds that I have previously mentioned.

Mr. Doyle. At this point may I say for the information of the wit-
ness, that this subcommittee of Congress is here as a committee of
Congress, your Congress, and because our distinguished legal counsel
has used some of the wording of Public Law 601 under which this
committee is operating, I think it appropriate to read you a part of
that Law. Tliis may further explain to you. This law was passed in
the 79th Congress, 1946 :

The Committee on Un-American Activities in full or by subcommittees is au-
thorized to make from time to time investigations of the extent, the character,
and objectives of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, the
diffusion within the United States of subversive and im-American propaganda
that is instigated from foreign countries or of domestic origin, and which at-
tacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and all other questions in relation thereto which would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.

That is the chief paragraph of the law under which Mr. Taven-
ner is questioning you and under which this committee is present as
Members of your American Congress.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Doyle. So that this committee when INIr. Tavenner asks you
that question, using the phraseology, extent, character, and objectives
of the Connnunist Party, has adopted the exact phraseology of the
law^ under wdiich we are operating and that is the significance of that
language in part. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, who was the
chairman of the Communist Party group of which you were a mem-
ber ?

Miss Clarke. I exercise my privilege not to answer that on the basis
of the first amendment, supplemented by the fifth.

Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer.

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question on the previous
gi-ounds.

Mr. Tavenner. To whom did you pay Communist Party dues?

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds —
I am trying to word it differently, but I want — previously mentioned.

Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer.

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you pay a percentage of your salary as dues
to the Communist Party ?

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously mentioned.

Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer the question.

Miss Clarke. Again I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously mentioned.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how the Communist Party financed
its operations in this area by means other than payment of dues ?

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously mentioned.

Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer that question.

Miss Clarke. Again I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously mentioned.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1535

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. I have only one question of the witness :
Miss Clarke, either in or out — during the period of your member-
ship or at any other time, did you personally know an individual by
the name of — and I am going to have to spell this — the first name is
F-r-a-n-c-i-k ?

Tlie last name is M-i-z-o-k-l-j-y-z. A Pole, I imagine.

Miss CiiARKE. Who is the person ?

Mr. Jackson. I am asking you if at any time you knew him and

with a name like that I would assume

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the first amendment supplemented by the fifth.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, the name is totally fictitious so far as
I know. If there is such a gentleman I apologize to him for bringing
his name up in the context of these hearings. However, to plead the
fifth amendment in this instance on a name that has been pulled out of
the thinnest of air demonstrates to me an absolute misuse of the fifth
amendment, to acknowledge whether the witness ever knew an individ-
ual by that name could under no conceivable circumstances tend to in-
volve her in any criminal action. We have seen a lot of the use of the
amendment up to this time in questions which are just about as dan-
gerous to the witness as this one is and we will probably see a great
many more instances before the hearings are over, but I think this
demonstrates the use to which the fifth amendment is being put by
witnesses appearing before this committee.
I have no more questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. How could this be pertinent to this matter if it is a
fictitious name?

Mr. Jackson. The most pertinent matter in this entire investiga-
tion is the good faith of the witness in his or her use of the fifth
amendment, as I see it. That is the entire issue around which there
is currently raging a tremendous controversy. Some witnesses are
deliberately attempting to misuse a provision of the United States
Constitution. That is the crux of the entire matter and that is why I
think it is very important in the record that it is demonstrated very
clearly that such a misuse is going on constantly day after day. That
was the purpose for my introducing the name of this fictitious in-
dividual.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask one further
question.

You at no time held an official position in the Communist Party,
did you ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. That is activity again and I therefore refuse to

answer that

Mr. Scherer. That is lack of activity.

Miss Clarke. There are two sides to the coin, the one coin.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

1536 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Miss Clarke. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Doyle. May I ask you a couple of questions.

Why did you join the Communist Party ? That is your activity, it
isn't anyone else's.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Clarke. That is in the realm of feelings and opinions.

Mr. Doyle. I am not asking for your opinion. I am asking you
why you joined the Communist Party. INIay I state my basis of that
question is that this committee is here among other reasons to in-
vestigate the extent and the character and the methods used by the
Communists, for the purpose of offering remedial legislation. Now,
certainly we are interested in why American citizens join the Com-
munist Party. That will help us as your Congressmen to more in-
telligently legislate. What attracted you?

Miss Clarke. It is a long story.

Mr. Doyle. Make it as brief as you can, but what attracted you?

Miss Clarke. I will try. This acting as a part of a creative field
and the very word creative field deals with something has to be part
of the new ways of expressing one's self, new ways of thinking, new
ways of doing. This is even manifest in our business world, as I
see it. I can't imagine, for instance, Ford at the time that he was busy
with his new idea of his of making an automobile, excuse me, this
is relevant, when everybody was used to a horse and buggy, not try-
ing to find out about a new way of transportation but it is still trans-
portation.

Mr. Doyle. What new way were you trying to find out as to how
government should be run, because the Communist Party must have
been known to you even at that time as directly in conflict with the
constitutional form of government.

Miss Clarke. I have neA^er been a political person. I remember,
for instance, when my father died I hadn't gone out into the world
and this was at the time of the depression. I remember my father had
a flower shop on Wall Street, a very lucrative business. As a matter
of fact, all the top financial wizards of the country were his customers.
He was a victim of this depression. He died, he had a heart attack,
and we were pushed out into this world, we tried to run this business
and we were kicked out of the flower shop and there I was wondering
what is life.

Mr. Doyle. Is that what caused you to join the Communist Party?
That was my question.

Miss Clarke. I was confused as to wondering if this is the way of
life, this kind of insecurity where people did not know where they
were going to eat, how they were going to live, how they were going
to pay rent and, believe me, I know what that experience was.
Mr. Doyle. Some of the rest of us do.

Miss Clarke. Right after my father died, which was shortly after
I had studied to be an actress, I was pounding pavements on Broad-
way, door after door, day after day, not knowing, there were no ave-
nues to follow my chosen profession. All these confusions and hard-
ships.

Mr. Doyle. In other words, you were confused as to what you
should do ?

Miss Clarke. I was confused about the life around me.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1537

Mr. Doyle. Wliat caused you to leave the Communist Party ? That
is your activity. It is not anyone else's.

Miss Clarke. My whole life was a drive toward acting because as
an actress I felt, I remember when I first saw a play, I forget the
name of the play

Mr. Doyle. May I interrupt ?

Miss Clarke. It was like a light that opened up to me that I saw
good things, that made me feel happy or made me cry for good reasons.
I felt if I could bring this kind of pleasure or good tears to people
that I would be serving the people in a cultural way and that is why
I went into the acting field.

Mr. Doyle. We congratulate you on the opportunities and success
you have had, but why did you leave the Communist Party? That
was my question.

Miss Clarke. I drifted away. My interest in acting was the thing
I was concerned with more and I was busy being an actress and trying
to be a good actress.

Mr. Jackson. That took you into the party, didn't it ? That plus
economic pressure? Your love for the dramatic didn't vary, did it,
between the time you joined and the time you left the Communist
Party ?

( The witness conferred with her counsel. )

Mr. Jackson. May I say something more? I think this has been
a tragic story.

Miss Clarke. I don't mean it to be tragic.

Mr. Jackson. When it comes to pounding pavements during the
depression

Miss Clarke. This is the most difficult profession that anyone
could choose.

Mr. Jackson. Doing all of the things that all of us had to do during
those years, makes your story by no means unique.

Miss Clarke. And the prof ession is difficult.

Mr. Jackson. I just am very grateful that a hundred forty million,
or however many millions of Americans there were during that time,
pitched in and did something about it instead of joining the Com-
munist Party. American character, initiative and determination
pulled us out, not the Communist Party.

Mr. Doyle. That is correct.

May I ask you, Mrs. Wilkerson, and in using my word, when asking
you to be frank, I don't infer you haven't, the way you see it, but will
you try to help us as Congressmen in the field of legislation to know
why you left ?

In other words, what did the Communist Party fail to have when
you left, if anything, that it had when you went in ? Is that the way
to put it ?

Why did you leave ? Did you get your belly full of it — excuse me —
but what was it ? Were you disgusted w4th it ? Didn't you find what
you thought you were going to fuid or what was it ?

Miss Clarke. As I said, my home interest was in the field of acting
and how to be a better actress, and this was my main concern.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. I hoped you might be in a position to help.

Miss Clarke. May I ask a question, please? I don't know much
about this business of government, but I feel that the cultural, we have
a Department of Agriculture, we have a Department

1538 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute, Witness.

Miss Clarke. There is a nail on the end of that finger and courtesy
is not being exercised, as you professed at the very beginning of the
hearings.

Mr. ScHERER. We are following the rules and the rules of the com-
mittee do not permit the witness to ask any questions directly when
the witness has refused to answer any pertinent questions the commit-
tee has asked her.

Miss Clarke. You are finding out what kind of a human being I
am by being here and expressing myself.

Mr. Scherer. I have a pretty good idea, Witness.

Mr. Doyle. You are out of the Communist Party. If you are
no longer in sympathy with it or its objectives, or its international
Communist conspiracy, why don't you direct your magnificent ability
as an actress toward strengthening sinews of our great country and
fight the conspiracy you used to be in, by virtue of your distinguished
ability?

Let me suggest that you do turn your ability that way. It would be
wonderful to the country if you would turn your ability toward inspir-
ing and encouraging American citizens to not have any sympathy with
the Communist conspiracy. Let's go ahead, Mr. Tavenner. We wish
we could talk longer but we can't. We have to proceed to other
witnesses.

Your are excused.

Miss Clarke. Thank you.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Cecil Beard.

Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?

Mr. Beard. I do.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you.

The committee will be in recess for 10 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

TESTIMONY OF CECIL BEAED, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
EOBERT KENNY

Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state your name ?
Mr. Beard. Cecil Beard.
Mr. Tavenner. Spell your first name.
Mr. Beard. C-e-c-i-1.

Mr. Tavenner. What is the spelling of your last name ?
Mr, Beard. B-e-a-r-d.

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by the same
counsel as the preceding witness.
Mr. Beard. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. "Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Beard ?
Mr. Beard. I was born in Texas, March 27, 1907.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Beard. I reside in 2149 Fargo Street, Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1539

Mr. Beard. I would say a little over 18 years.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived in California continuously during
that 18-year period ?

Mr. Beard. Yes. Outside of normal, you know, visits outside for
vacations.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your pro-
fession or occupation is ?

Mr. Beard. I am an artist.

Mr. Tavenner. In what field of art ?

Mr. Beard. Well, most any field. I have done a lot of work in a
lot of fields, art field, mainly in commercial art and cartoon field.

Mr. Tavenner. Commercial art and cartoons ?

Mr. Beard. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has been ?

Mr. Beard. I have a B. A. degree from — do you want the place?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. I^eard. Trinity University.

Mr. Tavenner. In what State ?

Mr. Beard. Texas.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your em-
ployment has been since 1940 ?

Mr. Beard. Since 1940. Let's see. I would say, I think I started
to work in the George Pal's studios. Republic Studio, 1940. Prior
to that time I worked at the Disney Studio

Mr. Tavenner. Would you mind raising your voice a little?

Mr. Beard. I am sorry. I have a hard time speaking loud.

Before that, during a period in 1940 I had worked for the Disney
Studios.

Mr. Tavenner. As a cartoonist ?

Mr. Beard. As a cartoonist. It had reached, well, it reached into
1940; in other words, my period of employment there. Let's see. It
is a long time back. I believe I worked at Pal's for some year and
a half, 1 would say, maybe close to 2 years. He closed his place down
for a period of time and I was out of work for some time and picked
up jobs around where I could get them and none of them were very
long length.

Mr. Tavenner. Was that work as a cartoonist ?

Mr. Beard. No, it was anything I could get at that time.

Mr. Tavenner. Your work at Pal's ?

Mr. Beard. Yes, it was as a cartoonist.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the name, please ?

Mr. Beard. P-a-1. Then after a period of unemployment which
probably lasted, I don't remember, maybe 6 months off and on, you
know, a job where I could get it, some commercial art work as I could
get it, the same condition a lot of other people were, unemployed at the
same time, in the same field.

I ended up working for Screen Gems. I didn't name it. I worked
there for a period of about 3 years, I would say, just about 3 years.
I left there I believe in 1945 in the middle of the summer, and I
worked

Mr. Tavenner. Was that work cartoonist work ?

Mr. Beard. That was cartoonist work.

1540 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Then I worked for a period of about a year as the financial secretary
of the Screen Cartoonists Guild. It was an elected office and required
working in an office and I worked in the office for a period of about,
well, a year and 2 or 3 months, I would say, for which I drew pay.

Mr. TA^^ENNER. For what length of time ?

Mr. Beard. I actually worked, when I talk of employment, I mean,
I was employed, paid, for about that period.

Mr. Tavenner. I didn't understand the period. That is the point.

Mr. Beard. A year and 3 months.

I am trying to remember just when I — but it ran past the year.
Then I wasn't employed but I still held that office for the balance of
the year. I was unemployed then for a considerable length of time.

Then I worked, wasn't any work in the cartoon industry, at that
time, studios had kind of gone broke, small ones especially, this was
in 1946. And a lot of people were out of work. I ended up taking
a job down at the University of Southern California as a storekeeper,
a menial sort of a job, that I held for a period of about 5 years, 5V^
years. And doing intermittently my regular free-lance work, too.
I had to to make the difference. But after that period, well, since
then — that is about 3 years ago I left there — I have done just, I have
been self-employed. I do solely free-lance work. I am employed
really on my own, free-lance work, mostly cartooning, but I do a lot
of other things, too, in artists work.

Does that answer your question ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I think it does.

You said you were financial secretary of the Cartoonists Guild.

Mr. Beard. Yes.

Mr. Tan'enner. The Screen Cartoonists Guild, I believe, is the cor-
rect name ; isn't it ?

Mr. Beard. Yes, the Screen Cartoonists Guild.

Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time did you hold that posi-
tion?

Mr. Beard. It was a period of 1945 I think from June, I forget
what date, but sometime in June 1945 until, well, I held it for, the
office, I was elected to this office at that time again the following
year, which would take it then through 1946. I mean until June,
say the middle of the year 1946, or would it be 1946, 2 years from
then, because I held the office 2 years.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Screen Cartoonists Guild
during the period, entire period, that you were engaged in cartoon
work for the various studios ?

Mr. Beard. Not for the entire period. This guild didn't exist, I
don't know whether it existed or not, but like, it did exist at the Pal
place where I worked, you know, for a time but after that, when you
say going back to 1940, if you want to go back to, say, 1941, when it
was really organized through the industry, I guess it existed before
then, but well I was, sure, you had to be to work in the industry.

Mr. Tavenner. You were a member of it then from 1941 ?

Mr. Beard. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. How long were you a member of the Screen Car-
toonists Guild ?

Mr. Beard. Well, I am a member of it now. And, well, I have
been an inactive member at times, go on withdrawal, but — —

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1541

Mr. Tavenner. Have you held any positions in the guild other
than that of financial secretary ?

Mr. Beard. I suppose, I think I was trustee for a time but none
since then, because, as I say, I was unemployed for a time and I had,
I was actually out of the industry for a time except that I had to stay
close to it because that is my profession and I didn't want to leave it
too far. I was absorbed with my just plain making a living.

Mr. Tavexner. The committee's investigation has indicated that
there was in existence a group of individuals organized as a Com-
munist Party unit or cell within the Screen Cartoonists Guild and
the committee desires to ask you w^hat knowledge you had of the exis-
tence of such a cell and to inquire from you as the extent and char-
acter and objectives of Communist Party activities within that group,
if you know.

Did you want to consult comisel ?

Mr. Beard. Yes, I would like to.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Tavexner. Were you a member of such a group or unit of the
Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Beard. I have to refuse to answer that question on the basis
of the first amenchnent and supplemented by the fifth amendment.

Mr. Jacksox. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the witness if he was in
the hearing room during the course of tlie testimony of the previous
witness ?

Mr. Beard. Yes.

Mr. Jacksox. Did you hear the statement that was made at that
time relative to the possibility and in light of the previous actions
which have been taken by this conmiittee previously in instances where
witnesses acknowledge their own membership in the party and then
decline to state anything further with reference to other activities?

Mr. Beard. I am well aware of that.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Doyle. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.

I think the witness has not answered that question.

May the record show what did happen at that point. Please read it.

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)

Mr. Dotle. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavexxer. Are you acquainted with a person by the name of
Charlotte Darling Adams ?

Mr. Beard. I refuse to answer that question on the principles I
previously stated, first amendment supplemented by the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Ta\texxer. I think I should give you an opportunity to explain
or deny sworn testimony that does exist before this committee relating
to you. Mrs. Adams testified before this committee that she was a
member of that cartoonist group and that you were also a member of it.

Now, was that a truthful statement by her or not ?

Mr. Beard. I refuse to answer that on the basis I previously have
stated.

Mr. Ta\t:xxer. Did you ever hold the position of organizer in any.
branch of the Communist Party ?

1542 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Beard. I will have to refuse to answer that on the basis, same
basis I previously stated.

I would like to make my position clear. The welfare of a whole
union and a whole people are mixed up in this and I have no desire
to place in jeopardy the livelihoods of a whole group of people, and
that is what this is for that I know. It is for the purpose I am sure
of trying to beat a dead horse, of trying to break up these people and
my business, this is a trade union and the people of a trade union have
a right to run their own trade union without being interfered with by
the outside.

Mr. Doyle, Just a minute, Witness. We are not trying to break
up any trade union, but very frankly if that trade union is controlled
by Communists or Communists have infiltrated into it, it is our duty
to find out the extent the Communist Party has gotten into your trade
union. We are not interested in breaking up any trade union, you
know we are not.

I ask you deputy marshals to not postpone ejecting anyone from the
room who makes a noise. You are our guests here and if you can't
be courteous to the committee, we don't want you here and you
shouldn't expect to stay here. Let that be my final admonition,

I ask the deputy marshals to act accordingly.

I just wanted the record to show, Mr. Beard, that your observation
about the purpose of the United States Congress in this connection
is on a false premise and is not accurate and is not correct.

Mr. Beard. Mr. Doyle, I am not concerned with your intentions,
I am concerned with the effects, and the effect I say is as I said.

Mr. Doyle. We know, we are quite aware of the fact that now and
then when American citizens whom we know have been very active
as leaders in the Communist conspiracy and may be yet still in the
Communist conspiracy, as a result of them refusing to be frank and
open with their Government and help the Government uncover the
Communist conspiracy and the extent and character of it, people are
out of employment and we regret it.

Believe me, we do regret it. We regret the economic hardship that
now and then comes to such persons. But we also know that it is our
legal duty under Public Law 601 to find the extent and the character
of the Communist conspiracy as it was and as it is. We see no other
way but to put you people under oath and give you an opportunity to
help your own Government and we regret that individuals are some-
times hurt. That is not pleasant for anybody, least of all an American
congressional committee. But I did want to emphasize that your
observation that we are breaking up a trade union is quite familiar
to us, one of the lines of the Communist Party leadership, still is their
line, that prejudices the American congressional committee in the
minds of the American public by trying to throw out the line we are
trying to break up a trade union. We never have.

Mr. Beard, I have full confidence in those people, intelligent peo-
ple that run their own union and I don't think you will succeed in
breaking it up.

Mr. Jackson. May I say in connection with this old bugaboo of
breaking the trade unions, that during the hearing of this committee

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1543

in Seattle, Wash., a few months ago organized labor of great organiza-
tions, the CIO, the American Federation of Labor, and many inde-
pendent unions communicated with this committee expressing full
support in the effort that was being made to assist them to get out of
their ranks those whose primary allegiance was not to the United
States Government. I am sure, that no trade union is going to assist
in its own smashing or its own destruction. You are not here because
you are a trade unionist; you are here because you have been identified
under oath as a former or present member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Beard. Identified with an independent union which another
union can gain a great deal by breaking and taking over.

Mr. Jackson. That is something about which we know absolutely
nothing; the internal affairs of your union are not a concern of this
subcommittee.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Beard. I will have to refuse to answer that on the grounds pre-
viously stated. And I am stating here that on the grounds I am
standing on is the first amendment supplemented by the fifth amend-
ment, and I insist that the fifth amendment, I am standing on all of
it and it is there to protect the innocent, too.

Mr. Doyle. We agree with you. Witness.

Mr. Beard. This is my position.

Mr. Doyle. That is one of the glorious things about the United
States of America, that we have the Constitution and we have the
amendments to it and we never criticize, in fact we compliment any
witness before us when in good faith and honesty they claim their con-
stitutional protection. Of course we do regret that now and then
we have witnesses before us, as Mr. Jackson proved this morning,
pleading the amendment without any legal basis.

Thank you very much, Witness and Counsel.

The witness is excused.

Mr. Beard. Thank you.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Diamond Kim.

TESTIMONY OF DIAMOND KIM, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
WILLIAM SAMUELS

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Kim. I do.

Mr. Doyle. Please have a seat.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir.

Mr. Kim. My name is Diamond Kim.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Mr. Kim. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please state his name for the record.

Mr. Samuels. William Samuels of Los Angeles.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Mr. Kim, do you use any name other than the name
Diamond as a first name ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer that question.

65500— 55— pt. 1-

1544 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Tavenner. May I ask that the witness be directed to answer
the question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, Mr. Kim. Certainly
we are entitled to know who you are, what name you use.

Mr. Kim. As far as I remember, most of the time I sign my name
as Diamond Kim. So I refuse to answer any other names.

Mr. Tavenner. You say most of the time you use the name Diamond.
Wliat name do you use on occasions when you do not use the name
Diamond as a first name ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer further on this question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer, Mr. Kim. It is a ridiculous
claim of the constitutional privilege in our judgment, and I might as
well tell you I think it is a clear basis of contempt.

Mr. Kim. I received the subpena in this name and that is the correct
name, I don't have to mention my name, any other name here. So I
refuse to answer this question on the ground of the first amendment
as well as the fifth amendment.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. You have indicated, Mr. Kim, that you do use
another name besides the name Diamond. I ask you again what is
that other name.

Mr. Kim. Mr. Chairman, since I am Korean and I am not native
of America, the Korean community call me in two Korean names in
Korean language.

Mr. Jackson. Is the Korean name capable of being spelled in
English ?

Mr. Kim. Kim Kang. Or sometimes one American way the name
first, family name second, sometimes Kang Kim, but real name is
Kim Kang.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you also known in Korean circles by other
names ?

Mr. Kim. There is no such thing, I don't think so.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. Are you ready ?

Mr. Kim. Would you give me that question again ?

Mr. Tavenner. Will you read him the question, please.

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)

Mr. Tavenner. Did you want to add anything to that statement?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I don't know, I don't believe any other name used in the
Korean circles.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Have you used the name Kim Sang ?

Mr. Kim. That doesn't sound like Korean. That is a Japanese way
of saying.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you used it in the Japanese way of saying it ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. No, not to my knowledge. I never used any such name.
Except that means, Kim Sang means Mr. Kim, Japanese way. That
is what it is, I understand.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you used the name Soon lop Kim?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer that question.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1545

Mr. Tavenner. Why?

Mr. Kim. On the ground of the first amendment, supplemented by
the fifth amendment.

ISIr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.

Mr. Doyle. Before I direct you to answer the question, may I make
it clear that the committee does not accept your plea of the amend-
ments to the Constitution of the United States as sufficient answer, as
a good answer, as a legal answer. I therefore direct you to answer
that question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Doyle. You understand, Mr. Kim, my direction ; that you an-
swer the last question that legal counsel asked you ?

Mr. Kor. As I previously stated, I refuse to answer that question
on the ground of the first amendment and fifth amendment.

Mr. Ta\-enxer. "When and where were you born, Mr. Kim?

Mr. Kim. I was born in Korea in I believe 1901.

Mr. Ta\'exxer. Where in Korea ?

JNIr. Kim. The exact name is Long Chun.

Mr. Ta-v-exxer. Will you spell it, please ?

Mr. KiM. It is no use. You just write it out because it is not Ameri-
can language. Long Chun.

Mr. Tavexx^er. Mr. Kim, you are editor of a magazine, a news-
paper, I believe, which is published in both the Korean and English
languages. You can certanily give the reporter an English spelling
of the place named, can you not ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I told you my name in the subpena you have Kim, K-i-m,
but my name is K-i-m-m, but any way joii want to spell doesn't matter
as long as

Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
spell in English the name of the town in which he was born.

Mr. Doyle. You imclerstand that question, the name of the town or
community in which you were born in Korea and spell it in English,
give us the English translation of it.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. IviM. As I spell it. Long, just like long 1-o-n-g, Chmi, C-h-u-n,
Northern Pengan Province, Korea.

Mr. Ta%t:xxer. Is that in Xorth Korea or South Korea ?

Mr. Krsr. It is extreme north.

Mr. Ta\'exx'er. You said that your name in the subpena was spelled
with one "m'' and when you spell it you use two "m's." Isn't your name
frequently spelled in the Korean language with one "m" instead of
two?

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. KiM. I refuse to answer that question again because it has
nothing to do, as long as you got me here, one spelling, one "m" or no
"m" doesn't make any difference.

Mr. ScHERER. I think it does.

Mr. Jacksox". "\"\"liether it makes a difference or not, I ask that the
witness be directed to answer.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, Mr. Kim. Don't
take your own time and our time so much in giving frivolous answers.

1546 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. ScHERER. Especially when he takes the fifth amendment on one
name that he has used.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. IviM. Since you counsel agree it doesn't make any difference, I
say that it doesn't make any diii'erence so I refuse to answer that
question.

* Mr. DoTLE. I direct you again to answer the question, ^ye are en-
titled to know who you are, what names you use. The American Gov-
ernment is entitled to know who is within its shores and all the names
you use.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer again on the ground of the first amend-
ment and fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to the United States ?

Mr. Kim. I believe, if I remember I came in 1928.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you remained in the United States constantly
since 1928?

Mr. Kim. Yes, continuously. I have lived all the time here in this
country.

Mr. Tavenner. You have not returned to Korea since you first came
here in 1928 ?

Mr. KiM. No.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ?

Mr. KiM. On account of Oriental Exclusion Act I could never be an
American citizen until after World War Second. There was oppor-
tunity to be American citizen at that time.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Scherer. Have you made application since you could become an
American citizen ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. There was door open for me to be American citizen but
during Second World W^ar time war against Japan, OSS department
asked me to serve for their department. I believe you all know that
any Koreans want to have independence for their country.

Mr. Scherer. That isn't the question,

Mr. Kim, So I joined. Let me state.

Mr. Scherer. Wait a minute,

Mr. Kim. I am going to tell you why I have not applied for citizen-
ship.

Mr. Scherer. If you answer the question then you can explain it.

Mr. Kim. This is explaining his more economical, isn't it ? We save
time.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct him first to answer the questions
that have been asked and then explain.

Mr. Doyle. You were asked whether you did apply for American
citizenship. Answer yes or no and then explain.

Mr. Kim. No; I didn't apply.

Mr. Scherer. When was the first time you could have applied ?

Mr. Kim. During or part of Second World War time.

Mr. Scherer. What year was that ?

Mr. Kim. Somewhere around 1944 or 1945, as I think, toward the
end.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1547

Mr. ScHERER. That was about 11 years ago, 10 or 11 years ago.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. But still I couldn't apply for citizenship. Should I
explain ?

Mr. ScHERER. Yes.

Mr. Kim. At that time OSS asked me to serve for their department.
So I agreed. I consented.

Mr. ScHERER. You were in OSS too ?

Mr. KiM. Yes. But I know the Korean situation very well. If I
go into Korea in American uniform no Koreans will welcome me so
I told OSS department I will go back to my country as Korean, not
American mercenary. So they agreed. So I did not have, I did not
use that opportunity for application of citizenship.

Mr. ScHERER. How long have you been out of OSS ?

Mr. Kim. Since 1945.

Mr. ScHERER. You could have applied since 1945.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SoHERER. His answer was he shook his head in the aflSrmative.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ?

Mr. Samuels. I think there is a pending question he has not an-
swered.

Mr. Tavenner. I understood he answered it.

Mr. ScHERER. He didn't answer, he just shook his head.

Mr. Tavenner. He nodded his head.

Mr. ScHERER. Nodded his head in the affirmative.

Mr. Doyle. As I understand it, witness, when you nodded your
head in answer to Mr. Scherer's question, you intended that as a yes
answer or if that is not true

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. KiM. Would you let me hear the question again ?

Mr. ScHERER. Let's repeat it. You said you severed your connec-
tions with OSS in 1945. Now my question is : You could have applied
for citizenship since that date, could you not have ?

Mr. Kim. Immediately after my release

Mr. ScHERER. Will you answer the question and then explain it?

Mr. Kim. Since 1945 I didn't have any chance to.

Mr. ScHERER. All right.

Mr. KiM. There was immediate circumstances that didn't allow
me to apply for citizenship.

Mr. ScHERER. You didn't apply.

Now, you can state your reasons.

Mr. KiM. Because, yes, since 1945 there was deportation proceedings
against me.

Mr. ScHERER. That is a good reason.

Mr. Tavenner. I am going to refer to you by your Korean name,
Kim Kang.

Will you tell the committee, please, where you now reside?

Mr. KiM. I live in Los Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner. What address ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer this exact address on the ground of the
first and fifth amendments.

1548 COIVOIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Cliairman, I ask that he be directed to answer
the question. .

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, Mr. Kang. It is a
reasonable question, we believe.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. If you insist, I would give you my address off the record,
not on the record.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request that he be
directed to answer the question on the record.

Mr. DoTLE. I direct you to answer the question, Mr. Kang.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I refuse again on the ground I mentioned already.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you live at 1441 West Jefferson Boulevard, Los
Angeles ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. KiM. I refuse to answer that question again on the ground I
previously stated.

Mr. Doyle. I direct that you answer the question, Mr. Kang.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. KiM. On the same grounds I again refuse to answer that ques-
tion.

Mr. Tavenner. In what business are you engaged, Mr. Kim Kang?

Mr. KiM. I refuse to answer this question again on the ground
previously stated.

Mr. ScHERER. Are you engaged in an illegal enterprise at the present
time ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, KiM. I didn't do anything wrong in my making living since
1938 in this country.

Mr. Jackson. This is not responsive to the pending question, and
1 ask that the witness be instructed to answer the question.

Mr. KiM. I refuse to answer this question again on the ground of
the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. ScHERER. If he says now he hasn't done anything wron<^ since
1928, how can he then invoke the fifth amendment in refusing to
answer as to his present occupation or present business? In saying
"I refuse to tell you Avhat my present business is, because to do so
might tend to incriminate me" he is obviously improperly invoking
the fifth amendment and isn't invoking it in good faith on the basis
of his answer. The only way he could invoke the fifth amendment
on the basis of his occupation is that he is engaged in an illegal enter-
prise.

Mr. Jackson. I ask for further direction, Mr. Chairman.

INIr. ScHERER. He says he hasn't engaged in an illegal enterprise
so his invocation of the fifth amendment is obviously, on the record,
improper.

ilr. DoYLE, You have had the opportunity to confer with counsel
and I want it clear on the record and to your attention, too, I direct
you to answer that question.

Mr. KiM. Mr. Chairman, I refuse to answer on the ground of the
first and fifth amendments including that fifth amendment will pro-
tect the innocent.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1549

Mr. ScHERER. Didn't you just tell us you haven't done anything
wrong since 1928? Didn't you just tell us that? Didn't you just
say that a few minutes ago, in response to my question whether or not
}Ou had been engaged in any illegal enterprise ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. In my life here in this country.

Mr. ScHERER. My question is, didn't you say that ?

Mr. Samuels. Just a moment, please. Permit him to answer the
question. He started to do it.

Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute. He isn't answering. My question
was, didn't you say to us a few minutes ago in response to my ques-
tion whether or not you were engaged in an illegal enterprise, and
you said "I haven't done anything wrong since 1928." Didn't you
make that response to my question ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. As I stated before, I repeat again there was nothing
wrong in my life in this country. So I invoke the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Jackson. Because there was nothing wrong in your life you
invoke the fifth amendment ?

Mr. Kim. Yes.

Mr. Jackson. That is hardly a legal reason. So far as I am con-
cerned, Mr. Chairman, 1 consider that the answers upon which direc-
tions have been issued are completely unacceptable and constitute in
my mind a misuse of the fifth amendment.

Mr. DoYLE. I was just going to state substantially the same thing,
Mr. Kang, so that you will understand the committee does not accept
your answer as a valid justified claim of constitutional privilege.

Mr. ScHERER. I might further say it is my opinion, I assume it is
you gentlemen's opinion that he is clearly in contempt if he con-
tinues to refuse to answer the question as to his present occupation,
particularly in view of his voluntary statement that he has done
nothing wrong.

Mr. DoYLE. That is right.

Mr. Kang having told you that as chairman of the committee, you
heard Mr. Jackson state it and Mr. Scherer, I again direct you to
answer that question so that there will be no confusion or misunder-
standing on your part. You have frequently conferred with counsel
and that is his privilege, and yours, and we are glad he is here to
advise you on your constitutional rights, but I want it clear on the
record I am directing you to answer that question.

Mr. Kim. Yes, I again invoke tlie fifth amendment, as well as the
first amendment. I believe and I understand that the fifth amendment
protects innocent as well as otherwise.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you.

Next question, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Kim Kang, the committee's investigation indi-
cates that an organization was formed in the city of Los Angeles for
the publishing of a paper known as the Korean Independence. Our
information is that it was about 194?> that this paper was established.
Will you tell the committee, please, whether Choon Ho Pyen, C-h-o-o-n
il-o P-y-e-n was the treasurer of this organization, if you know ?

Mr. Kim. You stated that this person is connected with the paper,
in other words, the press, press is connected in the first amendment,

1550 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

joii are invading first amendment, freedom of press. Since I live
in this country I want to uphold the American Constitution and I
refuse to answer that kind of question.

Mr. ScHERER. It is strange to me to have a man in this position who
said he was arrested for deportation, he is not a citizen, charging us
with violating the Constitution, this North Korean.

Mr. Kim. Mr. Scherer, I am not arrested for deportation because of
my fault. It is United States Govermnent fault, let us understand
this point.

Mr. SciiERER. You said it. I didn't ask you. You volunteered the
statement that you didn't apply for citizenship

Mr. Kim. I clarify that situation why I was arrested. It is not my
fault.

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction ?

Mr. Scherer. It is not you people's fault, it is the Government's
fault in every case when you are arrested.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Kang, I direct you to answer the question. As I
■understand the question, it isn't a question of freedom of the press,
it is a question of whether or not, as Mr. Tavenner asked you, whether
or not a certain individual was treasurer of that newspaper and that
<;ertainly doesn't enter into the freedom of the press.

I regret hearing you, a noncitizen of my country all these years,
saying that my Government is at fault. I thought maybe you were
a little bit at fault, but maybe you are not. You claim you are not,
but it is not very pleasant to hear a man that hasn't proved his right
to citizenship for 10 or 12 years, charge my Government being at
fault because you are not a citizen. I direct you to answer the ques-
tion. If you don't like our country, why don't you get out. [Applause]

Mr. Kim. Mr. Doyle, I didn't say anything about I don't like this
country. I love tliis country. That is Avhy I volunteered to serve for
Armed Forces. I want you to understand that point clearly.

Mr. DoYLE. There is a lot of service that can be rendered to my
country without being in military uniform. You understand that.
The service to my country in peacetime without being in uniform is
just as important as military uniform service.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Doyle. Why don't you give our country some of that kind of
service ?

Mr. Jackson". Regular order, Mr. Chairman. It is getting late and
if we are going to get out of here at all today we better have questions.

Mr. KiM. I want to answer that question.

Mr. Jackson. There is direction on a question that has been asked.
1 ask for the regular order.

Mr. Doyle. Will you answer the question ?

Mr. Kim. That question, as I answered already, I repeat again tn]S
question is connected with press

Mr. Doyle. We have heard that. Will you claim your constitutional
privilege if you are going to, or answer the question directly. We
understand.

Mr. KiM. Yes ; I take the privilege to invoke first amendment, sup-
plemented by the fifth amendment.

Mr. Doyle. So there will be no misunderstanding in your mind or
in the record, I direct you to answer that question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1551

Mr. Kim. The same answer to the same question.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with a gentleman whose nam^o
I presented to you, Mr. Choon Ho Pyen ?

Mr. Kim. Mr. Tavenner, I refuse to answer that question because
it is connected with freedom of association.

Mr. Tavenner. May I ask that he be directed to answer.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, Mr. Kim.

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer that question on the ground whicli
I invoked j)reviously.

Mr. Tavenner. Is his address also 1441 AVest Jefferson, Los An-
geles ?

Mr. KiM. I repeat, refuse to answer this question on the ground
previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with a person by the name of
Harold W.Sunoo?

Mr. KiM. ]\Ir. Tavenner, this is again question connected with the
freedom of association. I love this country, I uphold United States
Constitution in this matter. I refuse to answer question as I i^re-
viously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr. Sunoo have any active part in the original
formation of your newspaper, the Korean Independence?

Mr. KiM. It is almost same question and I refuse to answer that
question on the gromid previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Reverend Sa Min Lee,
S-a M-i-n L-e-e?

Mr. KiM. Mr. Tavenner, I cannot inform you all this personnel you
ask, that is against the freedom of association. You try to invade my
right, my private, my privacy, I refuse to answer question again on
the ground previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Did Reverend Lee change his name to Sa Min from
the Korean name, Kyung Sun, K-y-u-n-g S-u-n ?

Mr. KiM. You give me same answer and I have — same question, I
give you same answer, on the ground previously stated.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, it has been some time since we have
had the legal grounds for refusal. May they appear again at this
time? He has talked about freedom of press, freedom of assembly,
freedom of association. I think it would be a good idea if the legal
grounds are stated again.

Mr. Doyle. To make sure the record shows the witness is claiming
his constitutional privilege.

Mr. KiM. All this ground I mentioned is good legal ground, as I
understand, so I understand this is boundary which Congress cannot
invade.

Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. We don't have time for you to makfr
any more speeches, but will you please claim your constitutional privi-
lege as a matter of clarity in the record so we will understand that
is what you intend to do.

Mr. KiM, Mr. Chairman, I just answered to the question Mr. Jack-
son put to me and I have right in front of me here Congress shall
make no law respecting the establishment of religion, private and free
exercise thereof

Mr. D0YI.E. Mr. Kang, please cooperate in the interest of saving^
your own time, too. If you are claiming your constitutional privi-

1552 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

lege, then use the form of answer you previously used in claiming
and specify that you do claim your first and fifth amendment.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Jackson. I didn't intend to start a long harangue or debate
here. I thought in the interest of the witness himself we should have
his legal reasons for refusing to answer very clearly down in the rec-
ord again because I was somewhat confused as to what he was claim-
ing. I thought that the legal grounds should appear again as much
for his protection as for anything else.

Mr. Kim. In order to answer that question, that is why I hold this
l)eautiful right.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Kang, you know perfectly well what constitu-
tional grounds you are standing upon. They are first and fifth
amendments. At least that is my impression, I should like to have
it restated in order that it might be clearly in the record. We are all
familiar as American citizens with the Bill of Eights as you are as
a noncitizen, so don't lecture us on them. If you will please give your
legal grounds, I think we can move along and all of us get some
lunch.

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer this question on the ground of the first
and fifth amendments previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Kim Kang, I have before me a photostatic copy
of a letter written, according to testimony under oath given before this
committee, by the two last mentioned persons that I inquired about;
that is, Mr. Sunoo and Reverend Lee. This letter was addressed to the
Prime Minister of North Korea and to the Foreign Minister of North
Korea. It was smuggled into North Korea through a returning
Korean — that is, a Korean returning to Soutli Korea. This letter was
originally discovered and obtained after the United States captured
North Korean territory.

The letter not only refers to you but it also refers to the function that
the Korean Independence paper was performing.

I want to read that letter into the record here now, and I want to base
some questions on it.

Mr. Samuels. May we see that, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. Not now.

This letter, it was testified by Mr. Sunoo, was written by him and
Reverend Lee. The letter is as follows :

To Comrades : Kim II Song, K-i-m I-l S-o-n-g —

I add parenthetically that he was the Prime Minister of Korea at
the time of the writing of this letter which was November 15, 1948.

Mr. Scherer. Prime Minister of North Korea ?

Mr. Tavenner. North Korea.

And Pak Hon Yong, P-a-k H-o-n Y-o-n-g, who in 1948 was the
Foreign Minister of North Korea. I quote from the letter :

This letter is better written in the belief that it will be delivered through a
trustworthy messenger, i. e., utilizing the return home of comrade Namgung
Yosol. This writer transmitted to Comrade Kim II Son? for the first time since
liberation in April 1947 the situation of Korean residents on this side of the
Pacific, the progress of the independence movement, conditions in the United
States and activities of party comrades, through Dr. Han Hung Su, who resided
in the capital of Czechoslovakia and through representatives who participated
in the World Professional League which opened here.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1553

In July of the same year a translation copy of Dialectical Materialism and a
letter were sent through a representative who participated in the World Young
Men's Meeting. In September of this year while I was staying in Los Angeles,
Calif., a letter was sent to comrade Kim II Song under the name of four com-
rades: Pyon Chun Ho, Kim Kang, Hyon Alice and myself, Lee Sa Min * * ••.

Will you give me the correct pronunciation of that name PyoD
Chun Ho.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer that.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you refuse to pronounce the Korean name ?

Mr. Kim. Yes.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness. All he has been
asked to do is give a correct pronunciation of that name.

Mr. Doyle. I direct that you give the correct pronunciation of the
Korean name.

Mr. Tavenner. My question was will he pronounce the name for
the committee.

Mr. KiM. I refuse to pronounce it.

Mr. Tavenner. All right. Don't let's lose time with it.

Parenthetically, I will say he is the person whose name I inquired
about as the treasurer of Korean Independence, and occupying the
address of 1441 West Jefferson, Los Angeles.

Mr. Scherer. He is an associate of this witness here in the publica-
tion of the newspaper and they live at the same address or have their
business at the same address, is that right ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Continuing to read the names of the four persons referred to hj the
writer of this letter, "Kim Kang, Pyon Chun Ho, Hyun Alice,"
H-y-u-n A-1-i-c-e. I will stop for a moment.

Is H-y-u-n the correct spelling for Hyun ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Doyle. Are you asking the witness that question ?

Mr. Tavenner. I am.

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Scherer. I ask a direction.

Mr. Doyle. You heard the question ?

Mr. KiM. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. You understand the question ?

Mr. KiM. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer this question on the ground previously
stated.

Mr. Tavenner. You are acquainted with Alice Hyun, are 3^ou not?

Mr. KiM. I refuse again on that question. It is the same kind of
question. I have to answer same way.

Mr. Tavenner. Is she the sister of Peter Hyun ?

Mr. KiM. I refuse to answer that question again on the same
grounds.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Peter Hyun ?

Mr. KiM. I refuse to answer that question again on the same ground.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where Alice Hyun is now?

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer that question again on the same ground.

Mr. Scherer. Peter Hyun has been identified, has he not?

1554 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Peter Hyun was identified as the executive secretary
of the Southern California Peace Crusade for a period of years, as
having given Communist Party directives to the San Diego Peace
Forum for tlie conduct of its business.

Mr. Doyle. He was positively identified yesterday right in this
room.

Mr. ScHERER. I wanted it in the record.

Wasn't Peter Hyun the man that arranged with Mrs. Schneider
to have Dr. Kingsbury stay at her home ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Jackson. Is he also the object of deportation proceedings?

Mr. Tavenner. Peter Hyun? I do not know. I do not think so.

The fourth of the individuals mentioned is mentioned in this
language :

And myself, Lee Sa Min, through comrade Chong Wellington.

That is, if I am reading this document as I have, it is hard, I know,
to keep the thread of it in mind, so I will interpolate with the com-
mittee's permission.

That refers to the delivery of Dialectical Materialism, that is, a
Korean translation through Chong Wellington who departed to study
at the capital of Czechoslovakia.

Were you acquainted with Chong Wellington ?

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer that question again on the same ground.

Mr. Tavenner (continuing) :

It is unnecessary to write about the things reported in these letters, so I will
write about conditions in the United States as seen at this time of the recent
elections, the activities of party members in the United States and liaison with
our home country.

What were the other matters referred to in this last sentence when
the writer says it is unnecessary to write about the other things
reported ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. May I see the letter you have there ?

Mr. Tavenner. I will let you read it in a moment.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. May I examine the letter before my answer ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, I think you can answer that question. If it is
a question of your doubting whether I am correctly reading it, I would
be very glad for you, counsel, to come here and sit by me and see that
I read it correctly.

Mr. Samuels. I just want to examine it, Mr. Tavenner. I will take
3'our word that you are reading it correctly if I examine it.

Mr. Tavenner. Very well.

(Witness' counsel examining letter.)

Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you answer the question, please?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer this question on the ground previously
stated.

Mr. Tavenner. The next paragraph in the letter or next series of
paragraphs appear under a heading "Conditions in the United States"
which I shall not take time to read.

Mr. Scherer. Before you go further, will you tell us the date of
that letter?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF,, AREA 1555

Mr. Tavenner. November 15, 1948.

The next heading in the center of the page is "Activities of Party
Members." I read as follows :

We, the members of this party, following the pattern of the United States
Communist Party activity, have been steadily performing our assigned duties in
order to fulfill the mission of liberating the fatherland. Tlie present party
membership totals 26 : 13 in Los Angeles, 1 in San Francisco, 5 in Seattle, 1 in
Chicago, 4 in New York, and 2 in Washington.

Were you a member of a Korean group of 26 individuals as indi-
cated, which group was described by that paragraph which I read ?

Mr. Kim. This sounds like Korean political activity for the libera-
tion of the fatherland, and as such I refuse to answer your question
on the ground of first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, if you say that this appears to you to be a
political effort to release the fatherland, you are speaking of North
Korea, of which you were a native. Do you mean to indicate that you
were involved in an effort to assist North Korea in 1948 ?

Mr. Kim. As I heard it, it doesn't mention either North Korea or
South Korea. As a whole liberation of fatherland sounds very good
to me, but I refuse to answer this question.

Mr. Tavenner (continuing) :

Since the majority of members are in Los Angeles and it being a center of the
Korean settlement we have organized the Korean group (once organized, but
dissolved within a year), with the permission and approval of the United States
Communist Party. Having resumed our activities and set our policies, a meet-
ing is held once a month to collect information, receive reports from outlying
members and discuss Korean problems.

Is that a correct statement of activities of individual Koreans in
Los Angeles as far as you know ?

Mr. Kim. I didn't get your exact nature of question. Many things
involved there.

I don't know how to answer.

Mr. Tavenner. I will reread that paragraph and I will ask you to
state whether or not it is a correct and truthful statement insofar as
you have information about it — if there is any statement that is wrong,
point it out. The paragraph reads as follows :

Since a majority of members are in Los Angeles, and it being a center of the
Korean settlement, we have reorganized the Korean group (once organized, but
dissolved within a year), with the permission and approval of the United States
Communist Party.

Mr. Kim. Are you through or do you have something else?

Mr. Ta\'enner. I am not through, but if you desire to answer to
as much as I have read, proceed.

Mr. Kim. Since you said that letter is written by somebody else,
you have to ask that person, I cannot say it is correct or not correct.

Mr. Tavenner. You do not know ?

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer that question on the same ground.

Mr. Tavenner (continuing) :

Having resumed our activities and set our policies, a meeting is held once a
month to collect information, receive reports from outlying members, and discuss
Korean problems.

Did you engage in or attend any meetings of that character in Los
Angeles ?

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer that question.

1556 COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF,, AREA

Mr. Tavenner. I continue to read :

The following seven members of our party have been appointed to represent
the party : Pyon Chun Ho —

that is the name you refused to tell us the pronunciation of —

Kim Kang —

that is you —

Hyon Alice, all of Los Angeles ; Sonu Hak Won —

the individual who testified in Seattle —

Lee Sa Min, Sin Tu Sik, (S-i-n T-u S-i-k), and Kwak Chong Sun, (K-w-a-k
C-h-o-n-g S-u-n), New York; for liaison work among members, investigations
of party policies and for liaison with the United States Communist Party head-
quarters. As for the party front organizations there are the Democratic Peo-
ples Front League and the Progressive Party support organization and they
are openly keeping in contact with Korean peoples associations performing their
present activities in groups with union organizations and other progressive-
parties.

Will you tell the committee, please, what activities you engaged in
as one of the seven members appointed to represent the party if you
were so appointed as indicated by this letter.

Mr. Kim. I again refuse to answer the question on the ground I
previously invoked.

Mr. Tavenner. Continuing to read :

Recently the Progressive Party and union organizations held a mass meet-
ing with the cooperation of the Democratic Peoples Front League and the Progres-
sive Party support organization which progressed successfully, using the fol-
lowing slogans :

1. The U. S. Army must withdraw from South Korea as U. S. S. R. did from
North Korea.

2. Announcement of the establishment of the North Korea Democratic Peo-
ples Republic.

3. Abolition of segregation of orientals in the United States.

4. Unconditional release of the leaders of the United States Communist Party
and Progressive Party.

The national assemblies of Hawaii and the United States have denied recog-
nition to the North Korean Government. Months ago the national assembly
and we recommended recognition of the Republic which was organized in North
Korea, through the Democratic Peoples Front League but no answer has yet
been received. We tried to send a message to the U. N. General Assembly in
Paris to advise withdrawal of the U. S. Army from South Korea as U. S. S. R.
troops were withdrawn from North Korea through a national assembly peti-
tion but failed. The Democratic Peoples Front League alone had sent the
message.

The next heading is "The Independence News,"
Mr. ScHERER. Is that his paper ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. [Reading :]

We publish weekly. The Independence News as an organ of expression. Dur-
ing wartime prosperity when our party members' income was high we expended
$10,000 annually, but now our newspaper is maintained at a cost of $3,000
per annum: prorated among standing party executives. This amount seems
trivial but we, party executives, totaling less than 20, have been devoting our-
selves to this mission. We publish 2,000 copies per edition which are distributed
widely among the political leaders, unions, schools, libraries, churches and
Korean communities in Great Britain, China, Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Hawaii
and the United States. We realize that the quality and quantity of our news-
paper are below par but since there are numerous handicaps, it is hard to
expect further improvement.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1557

Was your newspaper, the Independence News, used for the purpose
indicated ?

Mr, Kim. I again refuse to answer this question on the ground I
previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Continuing to read :

We can, however, proudly say that we are the only ones who report correct
ideas and news on Korean people. Even some foreigners as well as our fellow
travelers state that the Independence News is the best among four other Korean
newspapers. The news of North Korea has been reported only by the Independ-
ence. We published your messages as soon as they were announced and we
received the information. We printed the news and important announcements
which were issued during the South-North Convention held last August and
September. We have decided to continue publication of this newspaper until
the 38th parallel is abolished.

The next heading pertains to liaison :

1. It is absolutely imperative that liaison with our country be maintained
through exchange of propaganda materials, news, information, newspapers, and
periodicals. It seems, however, impossible under the present circumstances to
maintain the flow of communications to our country through the North Korean
missions in East European countries (i. e., Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc.). We
were able to communicate several times while Han Hung Su was in Czecho-
slovakia, but we have not had any word from there for approximately 1 year.
We have not heard from Comrade Chong Wellington who went over there a
month ago. We have, however, received an uncensored letter in the United
States from Comrade Lee Tuk Hwan (L-e-e T-u-k H-w-a-n) in P'yongyang through
the U. S. S. R. If a letter is of a most urgent nature, it can be sent through our
missions located in East European countries and the U. S. S. R. during their
trips to this country. It is requested that you inform us of appropriate channels.
The addi'esses to be used for the purpose of communication to United States
follow —

Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question at that point? Does the staff
and whoever has analyzed this interpret that to mean that diplomatic
pouches were to be used for the transfer of information and any com-
munications which this group in Los Angeles wanted to conduct else-
where throughout the world ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir, that is true and there has been reference
to it, I am not sure whether it is in evidence now or will later be, of
the use of the Soviet Embassy for that same purpose in other connec-
tions.

Mr. Jackson. Thank you.

Mr. ScHERER. This letter was gotten through to North Korea by
what means?

Mr. Tavenner. This letter was sent from the composers in Seattle
but who were formerly in Los Angeles, through a young man who was
returning to South Korea for delivery to an underground source for
delivery into North Korea and after our troops captured North Korean
territory this letter was found.

Continuing to read

Mr. ScHERER. Let's get it straight. The authors of this letter were
who?

Mr. Tavenner. Keverend Lee and Mr. Sunoo. Mr. Sunoo testified
before this committee in Seattle and the courier who actually delivered
the letter, and was more or less an innocent party in the thing also
testified in Seattle that he did deliver this letter to an underground
source in a university, I believe, in South Korea.

1558 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. ScHERER. Will you state again for the record how the authors
of this letter are identified with this witness ?

Mr. Tavenner. This witness refused to testify with regard to their
identity, but the witness. Mr. Sunoo, testified that he had played a
part in the organizing of this newspaper and the letter itself states the
connection between Reverend Lee and this newspaper and the witness.

Mr. Scherer. i\.nd the witness is the editor of the newspaper ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. At the present time ?

Mr. Tavenner. I am not certain the investigation shows at the
present moment that he is, but at least until a recent date he was; as
of today I don't know.

Mr. DoTLE. The two former Korean citizens in Seattle, did they
cooperate with the committee to give us the information ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, they did and I should add for the record at
this time that Mr, Sunoo himself went to Czechoslovakia with the idea
in mind of going from there to North Korea and his experience in
Czechoslovakia was such that he changed his ideas about communism
and left the Communist Party and came back to this country with the
idea in mind of exposing its international character and its con-
spiratorial nature as fully as he could, and for that reason he was a
witness who answered all questions that we asked him.

Mr. Doyle. Did either or both of those Koreans that testified before
us in Seattle formerly live in Los Angeles ?

Mr. Tavenner. Sunoo lived here for a while. The messenger did
not.

Mr. Scherer. What was the address of Sunoo ?

Mr. Tavenner. I don't know Sunoo's address.

Mr. Doyle. In other words, neither of those Koreans pleaded their
constitutional privilege ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.

May I read the next sentence in this paragraph :

It is requested that you inform us of appropriate channels. The addresses to
be used for the purpose of communication to United States are as follows :

(1) Messrs. H. Sunoo and S. Lee — ■

They were the writers of this letter —
3668 Interlake Avenue, Seattle, Wash., U. S. A.
(2) Messrs. K. Kim and C. Pyen —

the spelling is with one "m", K. K-i-m, and C. P-y-e-n —
1441 West Jefferson Boulevard, Los Angeles, Calif., U. S. A.

Mr. Scherer. Let's clarify for the record a little further. That
address which you just read was the address that this witness refused
to say, invoking the fifth amendment as to whether or not it was his
present address ?

Mr. Tavenner. It was either his residence or place of business.

Mr. Scherer. What does your investigation show ?

Mr. Tavenner. The investigation of the committee shows that that
is the place of the office of his business, or was in 1943 when this or-
ganization was formed.

Mr. Scherer. Was our investigator's finding correct, that that was
your place of business where you published this newspaper at that
time?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1559

(The witness conferred with his counseL)

Mr. Kim. Mr. Chairman, I refuse to answer this question on the
ground I previously stated.

Mr. ScHERER. It is obvious that our investigators are pretty good.

Mr. Tavenner. The investigation sliows that the certificate on file
with the court on February 14, 1944, shows that the retail business
license and sales tax permit to Diamond Kim, K-i-m-m, was 1441 West
Jefferson.

Mr. Scherer. Is this newspaper being published today, Mr. Taven-
ner ? Or in the recent ])ast.

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. Where is it published from at this date ?

Mr. Tavenner. Our investigation shows that the Korean Independ'
ence has the address of 1350 West Jefferson Boulevard.

Mr. Scherer. Same address?

Mr. Tavenner. That is not the same.

Mr. Scherer. Two blocks away.

Mr. Tavenner. I am not sure how far. Apparently the retail end
of the business was located at the address given to the clerk of the
court, 1441 West Jefferson, while the publication of the newspaper
was from 1350 West Jefferson. That would be the entrance, probably.

Mr. Scherer. Where are you publishing y^our newspaper today,
Witness ?

Mr. Kim. I refuse again this question on the ground I invoked
already.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the M'itness be directed to
answer the question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question, Mr. Kang. I
didn't know the freedom of the press extended to secrecy as to where
it was being published in m}^ country. I direct you to answer the
question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. KiM. Mr. Chairman, as I heard the reading quite intently, that
letter did not mention anything about overthrowing of the United
States Government or any sabotage against the American military
forces in South Korea, Why you have to be very practical on this
point, I don't see your question at all, why does the Congress investigate
this Korean problem.

Mr. Doyle. The letter speaks for itself and your news])apers show
vhat you have been writing. We are not unfamiliar with some of
that. I direct you to answer the question. Two of your former col-
leagues in Seattle thought enough of the United States to help the-
Congress of the United States and they didn't plead the amendments.
They valued their residence in the United States quite differently than
3'ou do. apparently. I direct you to answer the question.

Mr. KiM. I want to cooperate with all my heart to uphold the United
States Constitution and the Bill of Rights with 3^our committee,

Mr. Doyle. Your heart isn't very big.

j\fr. Jackson. There is a direction, Mr. Chairman, and I ask that
it be pressed.

Mr. KiM. I refuse to answer this question on the ground of the first
amendment supplemented by the fifth amendment.

65500— 55— pt. 1 9

1560 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Tavenner (continuing) :

II. Although almost all comrades here wish to repatriate, they were not per-
mitted to repatriate even to South Korea, in spite of the fact that they had made
application for repatriation after the Liberation. Apparently the only way to
repatriate is through east European countries. We believe that some helpful
arrangements by the missions of the east European countries should be made
for this purpose. It is also requested that you inform us what appropriate steps
should be taken, and what preparations are necessary, and information which
would be of reference value, during our stay here in the US.

III. Any i-equests for information pertaining to research or survey which will
help in the country's reconstruction will be heartily welcomed by us. We shall
do our best to comply. If you have something to state on the individual's prob-
lem of education, we can assure you that there are comrades who according to
their technical qualification could engage in the field of industry, education,
journalism, medicine, and politics in the future. If possible it is requested that
you send a reply to this letter through the same channels by which it will be
sent or through the east European countries. We also want to know about the
departure of Dr. Han Hung Su from Korea.

Hurrah ! for the Korean Democratic People's Republic.

Hurrali ! for Our true leaders, comrades Kim II Song and Pak Hon Yong !

15 Nov. 48.

(s) Lee Sa Min,

SoNU Hak Won,
Representatives of Party Comrades in Seattle, USA.
P. S. : (1) The armed revolutionary movements which successively occurred in
South Korea from the middle of October greatly stirred not only the United
States populace and Government officials but also caused an international sensa-
tion.

(2) We wish to send leftwing publications and other necessary books and
magazines to you if possible. Please advise us on this matter also.

(3) A casting mold for use in a linotype machine for Korean characters is
made at a printing machinery company here. It can be purchased for only
four or five hundred won (TN Presumably dollars.) If you can buy a lino-
typewriter, we will send you the casting mold for Korean characters. By using
this machine, it will be possible to speed up and increase publication of Korean
books. It will help greatly in public enlightenment movements.

(4) If there are any books which must be translated urgently, send them to
us immediately so that our comrades can translate and ship them back. Please
advise us on this matter also.

I desire to offer that document in evidence in the form that it is
in and marked "Kim Exhibit No. 1."

Mr. Samuels. Do you care to show that to the witness, as .you indi-
cated?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

(Document handed to witness; witness conferred with his counsel.)

(The exhibit referred to is as follows :)

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1561
Kim Exhibit No. 1

To Cooiradts: KIM 11 Song ( ^ ^ ^ )
TAX. Hen Yong ( ^V^X)

This latter is being written in the belief that it will be
delivered through a trustworthy cjescenger, i.e. utilizing the
return heme of comrade NAMGl'JIG YOSOL ( '^ "<5 ^ ,^ ). Thie writer
transmitted to cocirade KIM II Song for the first time since libera-
tion in April 1947 the situation of Korean residents on this side
of the PACIFIC, the progress of the independence ncvement, condi-
tions in the US and activities of party comrades, through Dr HAN
Hiog Su (fl ^^, who resided in the capital of C:ECHOSLOV;?nA
and through' representatives who participated in the World Profes-
sional League which opened here.

In July of the sair.e year a translation copy of "Dialectical
Materialism" and a letter were sent through a representative who
participated in the World Toung V.en's Meeting. In Septejiiber of
thie year while I was staying in LOS ANSLES, CALIFOP-NIA a letter
was sent to ccnirade KIM H Song under the naae of four comrades:
PTCW Chun Ho {'fi^i^}), KIM Kang {^ fi^ ), HYCK Alice (A •?• ^ ^)
aiid myself, LEE Sa Min { % ^J^ f^) through ccskrade CHONG ^'ellington
{i.\\^Kkj, ) *ho departed to study at the capital of CIECHOSLOTAKIA.
It is unneceseary to write about the things reported in tnese letters,
•o I will write about ccnditions in the US tis seen at this tia^e of
the recent elections, the activities of party na-bers in the US
and liaison ni.th our hoTiS coui"itry.

Ccnditions in the US

Although everybody expected that the Rapublican Party would
win the recent US elections, the Der.ocratlc Party finally won.
It is difficult to state the reasons briefly but we can s'^iy that
TRlSUN's elocticn speech hjd a jroat affect. This speech was a
repetition of the policies of the late President RDOSEVaX. Cn the
other hand the Democratic Party victory could also be ccrjside.'sd as
a repulsion of the Wallace Prof^^-assive Party mcven.ent.

TPUMAN grasped the administrative pc*iar after the deith of
RCOSSVEI.T and it is a fact that he was acting as a tool of the
m.'rnopolistic plutocrats, surrendering to the Republican Party
Hooveriam.

Prior to the elections, the Taft faction esEphasized policies
advocated by T'JXACE's followers, such as opposLng iiTiti-l^bor laws,
monopolistic pli>tocrats, the Un-Axerican Activities Comaittee, sjid
discrimination against Negroes, ana advocating pes.ce, nrice controls
and health and housin;- prograits. Although there is a trend of the
general public sentimftnt to desire peace and reject jmenopolistic
plutocrats, even if there had been three or four times as many
enthusiastic meD±iers in the audiences at election speeches given
by the Progressive Party's WALLACE as there were at the Dan.ocratic
and Republican Party meetings, the people would have turned a^-jy
from him and chosen TRUMAH because they knew that the Progressive
Party had no chance to win the final victory.

Since the Republican Party's policies are traditionally cen-
tered around the plutocrats, the people, threatened by the panic
of a chronic depression, had to vote for the Democratic Party
even if they were suspicious of TRUMAN. Both houses are now con-
trolled cccpletel^ by the Democratic Party so it is possible that

1562 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

US policy, which was heading for Faaciair,, may be slightly Mollii'ied
as the people battle for realization of the premises made it the
tljne of the elections.

Sor.ething of a conpromise in foreign policy, especially Soviet
policy, can be expected. Of course she is not in a state to make
war. There is a difference in opinion between the President and
Secretary of State UARSRiLL regarding the problem of a military
alliance in TVestem EUROPE, and the President was going to send
the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court VINSON to LOcCO"'. It ie
also rumored that Secretary of State MARSHALL and Secretary of
Defense PORRESTaL will resign from their posts.

It is true that the Department of State and the Army had a
slight difference of opinion regarding the withdrawal of troops
"froB KOKEd. 5he Arny insisted on the withdrawal of troc^s as
soon as pooeible frca S0U1H KORSA and strengtheaiing JAPAN because
it is difficult to defend SOUTO KORE/, from a strategical point,
while the Department of State insisted on delaying the withdrawal
until US power wae established in SOUTH KOREA. Anyhow, it can be
ejq^ected that troops will be withdra.«n after the Paris \JH General
Aesenbly because of international dignity. Even after the with-
drawal, intervention will be carried on as in CHINA and 3RS3CE.
Even after the withdrawal ofLXroops, the US expects that the stra-
tegy of LSB Pom Sok ( ^|L^0> Priiue Minister and Mnigter of
Foreign Affairs of the Puppet South Korerin Government {^^^ ^lA
l%^^fi\)> and the arming of his more than one million Youth Party
Members will be able to win over NORTO KOHS.'.. Anyhow, we believe
utmost caution must be exercised with reginl to h^^f Tea. Sok because
he ie a vicious antirevolutionury fascist dictator.

Activities of Party Members

We, the members of this party, following the pattern of the
United States Cofn,:;unist Party activity, have been steadily perform-
ing our assigned duties in order to fulfill the mission of liberal
ing the fatherland. The present J.^arty meribership totals 26: 13 in
LOS ANGLES, one in SA.N FH.J.CISCO, five in SEATTLE, one in CHICAGO,
four in NEIV YORK and two in WASHINGTON.

Since the majority of members are in LOS AKG^'S, and it being
a center of the Korean settlement, we hdve reorganized the Korean
group (once organized, but dissolved within a year), with the per-
mission and approval of the United States Communist P^rty. Having
resumed our activities :.nd set our policies, a meeting is held
onc« a month to collect information, receive report? from outlying
members and discuss Korean probleu»6.

The following seven meoibars of our party have been appointed
to represent the partyj PION Chun Ho C^^ lioL'Vfe ) , KIM Kang {'% "R ),
and KYON Alice, all of LOS .MvOHlESi SCMU Hak Won (^^j^ Vj^ ),

nl LEE Sa Min, SE.\TTLE; SiDl Tu Sik ( ^J 7 \^, and KlAK Chong Sun
f j^ ^)> N^ YORK; for liaison work among members, investiga-
tions of party policies ^nd for liaison with the United States Cco-
munist Party headquarters. As for the party front organizations
there are the Democratic Peoples Front League and the Progressive
P^rty Support Organization and they are openly keeping in contact
with Korean peoples associations performing their present activities
in groups v/ith union organizations and other progressive parties.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1563

Sacentlj the Progresaive Party and union organiMtlons held
a Maas meeting with the cooperation of the Democratic Peoplea
Front League aiid the Progreoeive Party Support Organiiation which
progressed suceeasfuLlor, using the following slogans:

1. The OS kray must withdraw from SOUTH KOREA as USSR
did froa NORTO KOREA.

2. Announcement of the establishiLent of the North Korea
Deoocratic Peoples R^ublic.

3* Abolition of segregation of orientals in the UNITED
STATES.

4. Unconditional release of the leaders of the United
States CoBumnist Party and Progressive Party.

The national assemblies of HA'VAII and the UNITED STATES have
denied recognition to the North Korean Government. Months ago the
national assembly and we recouaended recognition of the Republic
which was organized in NORTH KOREA, through the Democratic Peoples
Front League but no answer has yet been received. Wo tried to send
a message to the UN General Assembly in PARIS to advise withdrawal
of the US Army from SOUTH KOREA as USSR troops were withdrawn from
NORTH K0R5A through a national assembly petition but failed. The
Democratic Peoples Front League alone had sent the message.

■The Independence News"

We publish weekly, "The Independence News" as an organ of ex-
pression. During wartime prosperity when our party members' income
was high we exp«nded 10,000 dollars annually, but now our nawepaper
is maintained at a cost of 3,000 dollars per annual pro-rated among
strmdlng party executives. This amount seems trivial but we, party
executives, totaling less than twenty, have been devoting ourselves
to this mission. We publish 2,000 copies per edition which are
distributed widely among the political leacers, unions, schools,
librariee, churches and Korean coon^ainities in GREAT BRITAIN, CHINA,
CANADA, MEXICO, CUBA, HAWAII and the UNITED STATES. We realize
that the quality and quantity of our newspaper are below par but
since there are numerous handicaps, it is hard to expect further
improvement.

We can, however, proudly say that we are the only ones who
report correct ideas and news on Korean people. Even some foreigners
as well as our fellcw travelers state that "The Independence News"
is the best among four other Korean newspapers. The news of NORTH
KOREA has been reported only by "The Independence." We published
your messages as socn as they were announced and we received the
information. We printed the news and in^ortant announcements which
were issued during the South-North Convention held last August and
September. Wo have decided to continue publication of this news-
paper until the 3^h parallel is abolished.

Pertaining to Liaison

I. It is absolutely imperative that liaison with out country
be maintained through exchange of propaganda aiaterlals, news,
information, newspapers, and periodicals. It seems, however, ia^oe-

Bible undsr tha present circumstances to maintain the flow of com-
ffiMeications to our country through the North Korean missions in

1564 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

0a8t Buropaan countries (ie CZECH0SIX}VAKIA, PCLaNT etc). We wer«
able to coamrunicate several timaB while HAN Huag Su (t»^^)^^ '
was in CZ5CH0S1L0VAK1A, but we have not had any word frcm there for
approximately one year. We have not heard from cocirade CHONG Wel-
lington who went over there a month ago. We have, however, received
an m^ensored letter in the UNITE) STA.1SS from comrade LIS Tuk Hwan
('$• ^ /:^ ) in P'YGHGYANG ( f i'fgj through the USSR. If a latter
is of a most urgent nature, it can be sent through our missicns
"located in east European countries and the USSR during their trips
to Chls country. It is requested that you inform us of appropriate
channels. The addresses to be used for the purpose of ccmmunica-
tion to US follow $

(1) Messrs H SUROO i^"^ '-^ V^ ) and S LE3 (-^ ^ ^ )
3663 Interlake Avenue

SEATTLE, WASHHGTON, USl

(2) Messrs K UM ("^ f^ ) and C PTKN {f ^^ ^
1441 W Jefferson Blvd

LOS ANGELES, CALIFO.-a^lA, USA.

II. Although almost all comrades here wish to repatriate,
they were not permitted to repatriate even to SOUTH KOBEA, in
spite of the fact that they had made application for repatriation
after the Liberation. Apparently the ODly way to repatriate is
through east Suropean countries. We believe that some helpful
arrangements by the missions of the east European countries should
be made for this purpose. It is also requested that you inform
us what appropriate steps should be taJcen, and what preparations
are necessary, and informaticn which would be of reference valus,
during our stay here in the US.

in. Any requests for information prrtaining to research or
survey which will help in the country's reconstruction will be
heartily welccmed by us. We shall do our best to comply. If you
have something to state on the individual's problem of education,
we can assure you that there are canrades who according to their
technical qualification could engage In the field of industry,
education, journalism, medicine and politics in the future. If
possible it is requested that you send a reply to this letter
through the satie channels by v*hich it will be sent or through the
east Suropean countries. We also want to know about the departure
of Dr HAN Hung Su (J^^i^ from KOREA.

Hurrahl for the Korean Democratic People's Republic!

Hurrah! for Our true leaders, comrades KBf 11 Song and
PAK Hon long I

15 Nov 48

/s/ LEE Sa Min
SONU Hak Won

Representatives of Party Canrades
in S2ATTLB, USA

PSs 1) Ttie armed revolutionary movamant* which successively
occurred in SOUTH KORE-i free the middle of October greatly stirred
not only the US populace and government officials but also caused
an international sensation.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1565

2) We wish to send left wing publications and other necessary
books and aagaz.Jies to you if possible. Please advise us on this
juatter <^so.

3) A casting mold for use in a linotype machine for Korean
characters is made at a printing machinery company here. It can
be purchased for only four or five hundred won (TO Presumably
dollars.) If you can buy a linotypewriter, we will send you the
casting mold for Korean characters. By using this machiine, it
will be possible to speed up and increase publication of Korean
books. It will help greatly in public enlightenment movements.

4) If there are any books which must be translated urgently,
send them to us immediately so that our ccmradeE can trinslate
and shio them back. Please advise us on this matter also.

Mr. Tavenner. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that is all until after
lunch.

Mr. DoTLE. It is 12:40. The committee will stand in recess until
2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12 : 40 p. m. the committee was recessed, to recon-
vene at 2 p. m, the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION, JUNE 28, 1955

(The hearing was resumed at 2: 20 p. m., pursuant to recess.)

Mr. DoYLE. Let the committee come to order, please.

Let tlie record show all four members of the subconnnittee are
here, Messrs. Scherer, of Ohio, on my extreme left; Mr. Jackson, of
Los Angeles County, on my left; Mr. Morgan Moulder, of Missouri,
on my right; and I am Mr. Doyle of Los Angeles County, Calif., as
chairman.

We appreciate it if you will continue to be as quiet as you can.

I intend to be absolutely fair in asking that there be no evidence of
either applause or objection, either for or against a witness. You
heard me this morning urge that there be no display, so please do not
display anything favorable or unfavorable to any witness. We expect
that, and 1 know you will cooperate.

Mr. Tavenner. ai-e you ready with the first witness ?

Mr. Tavenner. I would like to recall Mr. Kim Kang. He had not
been excused, Mr. Chairman, and this is just a continuation of his
testimony.

Mr. Doyle. That is right, and it is not necessary to have Mr. Kang
sworn again.

TESTIMONY OF DIAMOND KIM, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WILLIAM SAMUELS— Eesumed

Mr. Samuels. Mr. Chairman, at the recess we were examining the
letter that had been referred to. I wonder if I could just see that for
another moment.

Mr. Doyle. You may hand it to him, Mr. Reporter.

(Document handed to Mr. Samuels.)

1566 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Samuels. I would like to call the chairman's attention to the>
exhibit, Mr. Chairman, if I may.

Mr. Doyle. Under our rules, call it to the attention of the counsel,,
because we do not have the facilities to allow the argument of counsel:
to the committee.

Mr. Samuels. I do not desire to make any argument. Mr. Tavenner,,
I merely would want to direct your attention to the fact that this
exhibit appears to be a photostatic copy of a copy of a letter, without
any identifying signature on it.

I notice what purports to be typewritten names appended to the
end of the letter. There is nothing to indicate that this is the photo-
static copy of any original document.

I thought I would like to call that to your attention.

Mr. Tavenner. I may add, the witness, Mr. Sunoo, examined the-
document and stated that it was a correct translation, as nearly as he
could tell, of the original. He testified in regard to that at Seattle.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much.

Are you ready to proceed ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kim, it is the information of the committee that in the October
29, 1952, issue of the Korean Independence paper, there was published
an alleged confession by one or more of the American prisoners of
war in Korea regarding the use of germ warfare.

Were such articles or such alleged confessions published in your
paper ?

Mr. Kim. This is also newspaper reporting matter, and this is out-
side of boundary of this committee.

Mr. Scherer. You say it is outside the boundary of this committee'
to inquire ?

Mr. Kim. Just a minute. I make my statement first.

Mr. Scherer. Just a minute.

Mr. Kim. Let me answer.

Mr. Scherer. I want to interrupt you at this point.

You say it is out of the bounds of this committee to determine-
whether or not you published in your newspaper alleged confessions of
American servicemen on the question of germ warfare ? That is out of
the bounds of this committee? Did I understand that statement cor-
rectly ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I want to make a statement again and answer his ques-
tion. This is published matter. I am sure if there was any, it would
be reporting or news from some sources, so I don't want to answer
relating these news])aper reporting matters, so I refuse to answer this
question on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Doyle. Do I understand, Mr. Tavenner, that your question
was whether or not it was published ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Doyle. I think that is pertinent.

Mr. Kang, I direct you to answer the question. The question is
wliether or not it was published in your Korean Independence paper..
I direct you to answer.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. As I stated before, newspaper reporting connected with
freedom of press, I am sure it was not created by this paper. I refuse

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1567

to answer this question on the grounds of the first and fifth amend-
ments.

By the way, I want to mention, I want to correct "Kang." My
name is not "Kang" ; "Kim Kang," please.
Mr. Doyle, The two words ?
Mr. Kim. Yes, Kim Kang,
Mr. DoYLE, I think I called you Mr. Kang.

Mr. Kim, You could call me Diamond Kim. I think it would be
easier for you.

Mr. ScuERER. I may not have correctly understood the answer of
this witness, but he said that the matter about which we inquired,
namely, these alleged confessions, were published material in a news-
paper, inferring that we could find it out for ourselves if we wanted.
On the basis of that statement, how can he properly invoke the
fifth amendment ? May I ask a question ?

The fact is that your newspaper did publish such confessions, did it
not ? Is that not a fact ?

Mr. Kim. Mr. Scherer, I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds I previously stated.

]Mr. SciiEKER. Where did you obtain those alleged confessions, from
what source?

]Mr. Kim, ]\ir, Scherer, if you have this published document, the
document will carry where the source was. I think you could find it
out.

Mr, SciiERER. You obviously know all about it, because you now
say that the document itself carries the source. So will you tell us now ?
You certainly waived your right. You tell us where you got those
alleged confessions,

(The witness conferred with his counsel,)

Mr, Kim, Mr. Scherer, I did not waive any privilege at all, so I
refuse again to answer this question on the grounds previously stated.
JNIr. Scherer. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, may I make an observation at this
point relative to freedom of the press generally. It is a matter of
which I have more than a passing knowledge, inasmuch as I myself
have been an active newspaperman.

There is abundant documentation to prove that the Korean Inde-
pendence, like the Daily People's World and the Communist Daily
Worker, is not a newspaper in the sense that we generally accept the
free American newspaper. It is a house organ of the international
Communist conspiracy.

The policies and directives which have appeared in the issues I have
seen are the policies and directives that are handed down from a for-
eign power. It is not necessary for the publisher of any free Amer-
ican newspaper to have any dealings with any group which finds it
necessai'V to use the diplomatic pouch as a method of transmitting
instructions and receiA'ing instructions.

I would say that the Korean Independence is as little free from
the influence of international communism as anything I have ever
observed in the way of journalistic endeavor. Freedom of the press
is something that this committee has consistently supported. Since I
have been on the committee, something over 6 years, I have never
heard a question directed to the reporter or an editor or a publisher
which might in any way be interpreted by anyone as constituting any

65500— 55— pt. 1 10

1568 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

infrino-ement of the freedom of the American press, and so long as I
am a member of this committee I will make every effort to see that
that situation obtains. We prize it, I am sure, as highly and with
more honest conviction than does the staff of the Korean Independence.

I have nothing further.

Mr Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Jackson, Of course, you know all your
colleagues on this committee and all Members of Congress agree with
you.

Are you ready, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kim. Mr. Chairman, may I answer to Mr. Jackson s state-
ment ?

Mr. DoYLE. Is a question pending? I will give you ]ust a very
brief opportunity to say something briefly.

Mr. Kim. I say newspaper report put out to the American public,
whether accepted or not accepted, belongs to the people's freedom,
not the Congress will decide what to read, what to accept or what to
not accept. So in America, as long as the press is free and the people
should be free to accept whatever is printed or reject. That is people's
freedom.

Now again the pouch business, as far as I know we don't have any
such thing as a pouch medium. Do you have any such instance?
This letter carried by Mr. Tavenner mentioned carried by certain
person.

Mr. Jackson. Through underground channels into enemy terri-
tory.

Mr. Kim. You mentioned diplomatic pouch.

Mr. Jackson. The letter specifically states that if there is any diffi-
culty in communicating, the missions in Eastern Europe may be used
for transmission of information. That is generally known as
espionage.

Mr. DoYLE. Let us proceed now.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Kim, a witness here yesterday, Mrs. Anita
Schneider, told us about her attendance at various peace meetings
here in Los Angeles, and one she described as being held in 1954 at
which you were present.

Do you recall being present at what I believe they called shop meet-
ings of the American Peace Crusade or the southern California unit
of that organization ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. Since it is a statement mentioned by your informer or
United States informer, I refuse to answer this question.

Mr. DoYLE. On what grounds? That is not legal grounds. You
know that.

Mr. Kim. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds of the first
and fifth amendments.

Mr. Moulder. What kind of informer did you say she was ?
]\Ir, Kim. Mr. Tavenner mentioned that person yesterday, she testi-
fied here.

Mr. Moulder. You made some reference by use of some letters.
You say a United States informer ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kjm. Excuse me. FBI informer.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1569

Mr. Doyle. You saw the lady on the witness stand, in the chair in
which you are now sitting, yesterday, I am sure. Is that not true?

Mr. Kim. Yes, I saw her.

Mr. Doyle. You heard her testify.

Mr. Kim. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. I know, because I saw you seated just back of her all
day yesterday.

Mr. Kim. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. You heard all the testimony.

Mr. Kim. Yes, I heard.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Scherer. You are referring, when you mention informer, to
Mrs. Schneider, the woman who was employed by the Federal Bureau
of Investigation as an undercover agent in the Communist Party?
Is that who you are referring to ?

Mr. Kim. Yes, I think it is the same person.

Mr. Scherer. Is there anything Mrs. Schneider said insofar as you
are concerned, or insofar as facts within your knowledge are concerned,
which is untrue ?

(The witness conferred wnth his counsel.)

Mr. KiM. Mr. Scherer, I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds previously stated.

Mr. Scherer. You have, inferentially at least, attacked this woman,
calling her an informer and saying you will not answer because it is
based on her testimony, the question asked was based on her testimony.

You have an opportunity to tell these people here whether that
woman told the truth or not.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. KiM. Mr. Scherer, the statement made by Mrs. Schneider is for
her own duty, I suppose.

Mr. Scherer. I did not understand you. Is what ?

Mr. Kim. She made that statement on her service, paid service.

Mr. Scherer. That is right.

Mr. Kim. As far as I am concerned, I don't want to contest or debate
on her statement. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds I
stated.

Mr. Scherer. You attacked the woman, called her a paid informer,
although she was an agent of this Government ; and yet you are refus-
ing to say here whether or not she told the truth or in what respect she
lied.

Mr. Kim. Mr. Scherer, I am very well acquainted with this kind
of process. I came from Korea under Japanese imperialism. I hap-
pen to have lots and lots of tliis kind of framing-ups and informing
innocent people, so at the moment she came in here and she tried to
report all such things, in my heart I hate that kind of person.

Mr. Scherer. You tliink that woman, who I think is a very fine
American citizen and who contributed a valuable service to this coun-
try— you say you hate her ?

Mr. Kim. Mr. Scherer, those who defend our American Bill of
Rights, and Constitution, you think they are unloyal citizens in this
coimtry.

1570 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. ScHERER. You hate all FBI agents ?

Mr. Kim. FBI, in my knowledge FBI could do his work or their
work, not informer like that way.

Mr. Jackson". I think, Mr. Scherer, that the testimony of these two
witnesses, Mrs. Schneider and the present witness, will stand com-
parison when they are in transcript form, and there will be no mis-
understanding of the position of the two witnesses.

Mr. DoTLE. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you at the meeting to which I referred or any
other meeting of the workshop of the Southern California Peace Cru-
sade otter the services of your paper to the dissemination of the propa-
ganda that that organization was putting out ?

Mr. Kim. Circulation of a paper is connected with a free press and
I don't want to discuss this problem. I don't want to answer your
question concerning the matter.

Mr. Tavenner. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be directed
to answer.

Mr. DoTLE. I direct you to answer the question, Mr. Diamond Kim.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. KiM. I refuse to answer this question on the ground I have
previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Peter Hyun. it has been shown, was the execu-
tive secretary of the Southern California Peace Crusade for a period
of years.

Did he at any time invite you to one of the meetings of that
organization ?

Mr. KiM. That means, sir, association with his activities.

Mr. Ta%^nner. Let me change the question, so that it will not be
confused with the point that is in your mind.

Did you attend the meetings of the workshop of the Southern Cali-
fornia Peace Crusade in Los Angeles from time to time ?

Mr. KiM. Peace I think is very important in American life and
I want to give — President Eoosevelt wants to have peace and I don't
see why you ask about this problem, peace connection questions. I
refuse to answer any question on this on the ground of constitutional
rights.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you consulted by Peter Hyun regarding the
agenda or any business to be conducted at such meetings ?

Mr. KiM. jMr. Tavenner, in my activity I don't have to consult
anybody and I don't know anything about it and I refuse to answer
this question.

Mr. Tavenner. If you say you don't know anything about it, does
that mean that you did not confer with Mr. Peter Hyun regarding
the work of the Southern California Peace Crusade ?
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. KiM. I refuse to answer that question on the ground I previ-
ously stated.

Mr. Doyx,e. I think, in view of the witness' answer to the question
before the last, wherein he referred to the President of the United
States as having spoken out in favor of peace, of course the Southern
California Peace movement which Mr. Tavenner refers to is known as
a phony peace effort, not a bona fide peace effort, it is one of those
phony things with which you and I are familiar.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1571

Mr. Kim. Mr. Doyle, money which we use may have some counter-
feit but in connection with peace, no matter who says peace, peace is
a good object for anybody, any people.

Mr. Doyle. Yes, but some people take advantage of it to spread
the Communist doctrine and philosophy and conspiracy and we be-
lieve that this particular movement has been and is being used to a
certain extent for such purpose and we believe you know something
about that Communist infiltration and control in that particular
movement.

That is why you are being asked these questions. I think you know
that is why you are being asked these questions.

I wanted to explain that so you would understand.

As though you didn't already.

Mr. Kim. As I read many kinds of papers, all kinds of magazines,
I don't have the same kind of feeling as you have toward communism.

Mr. ScHERER. Let's get the next question

Mr. Kim. Who has the right, Mr. Doyle ? I want to finish my state-
ment.

Mr. Jackson. I agree with Mr. Scherer.

Mr. Scherer. General order. If this witness would answer any of
our questions we would give him a chance to talk, but he doesn't
answer any questions.

Mr. Tavexner. I have just one more question I want to ask the
witness :

After having introduced the exhibit in evidence which is the pho-
tostatic copy of the letter which was sent to the Prime Minister of
North Korea and in which your name was mentioned so frequently,
as well as that of the paper you were publishing, will you tell the
committee if you were a mail drop for the Soviet Union during the
period indicated by that letter, by the exhibit ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Samuels. Will you repeat the question, please ?

Mr. Tavenner. Will you read the question.

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)

Mr. Tavenner. I want to correct the question to read North Korea
instead of the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jackson. What is the distinction ?

Mr. Tavexner. There might be a technical distinction. Similarity
caused nie to make the mistake.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I mentioned that I live in this country, lived in this city
since 1928, 1 didn't go anywhere.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you understand what a mail drop is?

Mr. Scherer. Sure he does.

Mr. KiM. I don't know,

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. KiM. What do you mean ?

Mr. Tavenner. It occurred to me that you did not. A mail drop
is a person occupying a position by which secret information and
material is mailed to him to be transmitted by this individual known
as a mail drop to the source for which it is really intended.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. KiiM. I refuse this question on the fi-round which I stated before.

Mr. Ta\t2NNEr. I have no further questions.

1572 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Moulder ?

Mr. Moulder. Just one question.

Have you ever received any money or compensation in payment
of services performed for the interest of some foreign country other
than the United States ?

(The witness conferred with his counseL)

Mr. Moulder. I want to reframe that question. It was not prop-
erly stated. I simply ask have you ever received any money or pay-
ment of compensation for services performed for any' foreign country.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. I did not violate any United States law in connection
with this. I refuse to answer this question.

Mr. Moulder. Have you received payment of money or compen-
sation for the performance of services for the Soviet IJnion?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Kim. Wliat do you mean by for Soviet Union? Would you
clarify that first?

Mr. Moitlder. Have you ever received any money as a contribution
from the Soviet Union ?

Mr. KiM. You say services, now contributions. Services or con-
tributions or what?

Mr. Moulder. Either one.

Mr. Kim. Mr. Moulder, I refuse this question, refuse to answer this
question on the ground previously stated.

Mr. Moulder. I have no further questions. I was impressed and
amazed by your reference to a witness as a United States witness
which indirectly seems to indicate that you consider that person for-
eign to the country which you feel obligated and loyal to. In other
words, it indicates that you don't consider the United States as your
country, that vou are accustomed to referring to this country as any
foreigner would over in the Soviet Union.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Jackson, any questions ?

Mr. Jackson. No.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer?

Mr. Scherer. I have no questions, but I certainly intend to find out
why the Department of Justice hasn't deported this man. There is
every reason why he should have been deported.

Mr. Doyle. It certainly has been pending a long term of years. If
there is any reason why deportation should be concluded, it shouldn't
take another 10 years.

Thank you. Witness, and Counsel. You are excused.

Mr. TaHtenner. Mrs. Sue Lawson. Will you come forward, please.

Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand ; do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?

Mrs. Lawson. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. Be seated, please.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. SUE lAWSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ?
Mrs. Lawson. Sue Lawson. Mrs. Sue Lawson.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1573

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel.
"Will counsel please identify himself for the record.

Mr. EsTERMAN. William B. Esterman, class of 1952. I have just
been reminded by one of the distinguished members of the distin-
guished committee.

Mr. Tavenner. Class of 1952. Are you referring to the witnesses
who were subpenaed in 1952?

Mr. Esterman. I think my remark explains itself. And the mean-
ing is well within your knowledge. I don't mean to take over because
she is the witness, not I.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a native of the State of California, Mrs.
Lawson ?

Mrs. Lawson. I was born in Texas, I have lived in California since
about 1930.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
ma I educational training has been ?

Mrs. Lawson. Two years in college and a business course.

Mr. Tavenner. Where did you attend college ?

Mrs. Lawson. Waco, Tex., and in New York City, Columbia and
Baylor Business College.

Ml". Tavenner. Have you lived in California continuously since
1930?

Mrs. Lawson. No. I think continuously since about 1938. We
moved back and forth between here and New York before that.

Mr. Tavenner. You and your husband have lived in California
continuously since 1938?

Mrs. Lawson. Yes.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation, Mrs. Lawson ?

Mrs. Lawson. I am not employed.

Mr. Tavenner. What occupations have you followed in Los Angeles
since 1930?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Lawson. You mean gainful employment or volunteer?

Mr. Tavenner. I withdraw the question in the interest of time.

Mrs. Lawson, the committee has procured through a subpena duces
tecum a copy of a card from the bank in which the Southern California
Peace Crusade carried its account. I will ask you to examine it and
state whether or not you signed the card as secretary of the Southern
California Peace Crusade.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Lawson. Is this an organization that is listed as subversive,
this Southern California

Mr. Tavenner. There has been evidence introduced during this
hearing indicating that it is a branch or an affiliate of the American
Peace Crusade, which has been cited as a Communist-front organiza-
tion.

Mrs. Lawson. Thank you.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Lawson. I decline to answer the question on the ground that I
cannot be forced to testify against myself under the Constitution, the
first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Esterman. May I respectfully suggest in the interest of saving
time when the witness declines again that she be be permitted to simply

1574 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

answer by saying "same reply," with be understanding that she is
incorporating that ground without repeating.

Mr. Doyle. It will be so understood and so accepted.

I will say, Mr. Esternian, further, if at any time during the exam-
ination you feel it advisable in the interest of your client that there
be a short recess as far as she is concerned, you may have it.

Mr. EsTEKMAN. We want to consult in private. I might need it but
I don't think she will.

Mr. Doyle. All right, if you need it.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to otfer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Lawson Exhibit No. 1," for identification only.

Mr. Doyle. It w^ill be so received and so marked.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I will read so much as is important
about this card. It shows that it represents a commercial account in
the bank, the name of which I do not have available at the moment,
an account in the name of the Southern California Peace Crusade of
which Sue Lawson is one of those entitled to draw upon the account
and the meeting place of the organization is 326 West Third, Los
Angeles 65.

Tliere is stamped on the card that two signatures are required.
On the back of the card it is stated :

To California bank : We the undersigned, president and secretary respectively
of Southern California Peace Crusade hereby certify that at a regular meeting
held the following named persons were elected or appointed the president and
secretary of said organization, and that by virtue of the authority vested in
them by the constitution, bylaws and otherwise, they or any two of them are
authorized and empowered to sign and endorse —

checks and so forth.

It bears the date of May 3, 1955.

When did you first become secretary of the Southern California
Peace Crusade, Mrs. Lawson ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Lawson. Same reply.

Mr. Tavenner. Was Peter Hyun an official of this organization at
any time that you were a member of it ?

Mrs. Lawson. Same reply.

Mr. TA\=rENNER. Was Peter Hyun a person known to you to be an
active member of the Communist Party in the Los Angeles area at
the time he was officially connected with the Southern California
Peace Crusade ?

Mrs. Lawson. Same reply.

Mr. Taa'enner. Will you tell the committee, please, what Commu-
nist Party instructions or directions were given for the operation of
the Southern California Peace Crusade, if you know ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Lawson. Same reply.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you personally take part in any Communist
Party decisions guiding the atfairs of the Southern California Peace
Crusade ?

Mrs. Lawson. Same reply.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Llave you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time while holding the position of secretary of the Southern
California Peace Crusade ?

Mrs. Lawson. Same reply.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF,, AREA 1575

Mr. 'lAVEXNER. You have been identified as a member of the Com-
munist Party by sworn testimony given to this committee as long ago
as September 11, 1951, by Elizabeth Wilson; January 23, 1952, by
Max Silver; August 3, 1951 by Meta Keis Kosenberg; September 20,
1951, by AYilliam Blowitz.

If you desire to deny that testimony or that identification or make
any explanation of it, the committee will, I am sure, be glad to hear
you.

Mrs. Lawson. Same reply.

Mr. Tavenner. Are j^ou now a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Lawson. Same reply.

Mr. Ta\tenner. Have vou ever been a member of the Communist
Party?

Mrs. Lawson. Same reply.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Moulder, Mr. Jackson, Mr. Scherer ?

Thank you, Mrs. Lawson, and Mr. Esterman. It will be under-
stood that wherever Mrs. Lawson answered "same reply" she in effect
was pleading her constitutional privilege.

Mr. Esterman. Thank you very much.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Hugh Hardyman.

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Hardyman. I do.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE HUGH MURRAY MAITIAND HARDYMAN,
ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, A. L. WIRIN

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please, sir ?

Mr. Hardyman. My name is Hugh Hardyman.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name, please ?

Mr. Hardyman. H-a-r-d-y-m-a-n. I have other first names, if
you wish me to recite them.

Mr. Tavenner. I think you should state your full name.

Mr. Hardyman. My full name is George Hugh Murray Maitland
Hardyman.

Mr. WiRiN. My full name is A. L. Wirin, I am an attorney and I
have been here before.

Mr. Tavenner. You are accompanying the witness, I assume.

Mr. Wirin. I am representing him at this time.

Mr. Tavenner. W^hen and where were you born, Mr. Hardyman?

Mr. Hardyman. In Bath, England.

Mr. Tavenner. Spell the name, please.

Mr. Hardyman. B-a-t-h, England. E-n-g-1-a-n-d. August 11,
1902.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you first come to this country ?

Mr. Hardyman. In 1920, end of July or first day or so of August. I
left the other side in July, I remember.

Mr. Tavenner. Have vou resided continuously^ in this country since
1920?

Mr. Hardyman. Yes.

1576 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Tavenner, Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has been ?

Mr. Hardyman. No college degrees at all. Do you want details of
school ?

Mr. Tavenner. Have you attended college, and if so where ?

Mr. Hardyman. Do you understand the designation between the
English and American educational system ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, not fully.

Mr. Hardyman. Very good. One goes from a governess in England,
first one learns to read with a nurse, then one goes to a governess and
then one goes to a prep school which is, unlike an American prep
school, a grammar school, but a grammar school in England is not a
prep school. One then goes on to public school which is a private school,
and which though not by American parlance a college, my school had
the name of St. Lawrence College and while at that school I matricu-
lated at Cambridge University but not with the idea of going to Cam-
bridge, with the idea of going on to either Edinburgh or Oxford.

However, I did not do so. I merely took a year's work toward an
A. B. degree and then came to the United States.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you pursue formal educational training further
in the United States ?

Mr. Hardyman. No, no formal work at all. An occasional course
here or there in something I happened to be interested in, but no formal
registration in a university.

Mr. Ta\'enner. Where do you now reside ?

Mr. Hardyman. Topanga, Calif.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in California ?

Mr. Hardyman. I was out here briefly about 30 years ago and then
back again a couple of times briefly and since 1938 I have been out here
as a resident.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation, sir ?

Mr. Hardyman. I spend most of my time reading.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you spent most of your time reading ?

Mr. Hardyman. Oh, the last 10 years, since 1944. I retired in 1944.

Mr. Scherer. What was the nature of your business ?

Mr. Hardyman. Fruit growing. Dates.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Hardyman, I hand you a photostatic copy of
a passport application which is stamped "received in San Francisco,
September 11, 1952." Will you examine it, please and state whether
or not it is your application for passport ?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the — I will take a look at it and see
what it is.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. WiRiN. The witness has examined the document, Mr. Tavenner,
and so have I.

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the, to my mind, rather un-American
doctrine of guilt by association, which is quite popular today in certain
official circles, and also in view of the rather vague doctrine of waiver,
which has apparently as many interpretations as there are persons try-
ing to interpret it, also in view of the fact that I am a private citizen
and that I have my view of the inherent right to travel of every Amer-
ican upheld recently in the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in the
Chapman case, and in view of the fact that the mandate of this com-
mittee as expressed in the rules which I have is an exceedingly vague

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1577

mandate, I am inclined to feel that the 9th and the 10th amendments
restricting the power of the committee makes it improper for the
committee to inquire into the activities of a private citizen. _

I feel too that the fourth amendment prevents the searching of my
mind without due warrant by this committee, also that the first amend-
ment prevents my freedom of association and my freedom of speech,
press, and so on.

The fifth amendment makes it unnecessary for me to answer for
fear of self-incrimination through possible association or any other
way.

Accordingly, with these amendments in view, in fact on the basis
of the Bill of Rights and the Quinn decision make it desirable to tie
more than one of these provisions together in one objection. On the
basis of these amendments to the Constitution I decline to answer that
question.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Hardyman, your statement was not clear as to
whether or not you are in fact relying upon the fifth amendment. I
wish you would clarify it.

Mr. Hardyman. I am relying, sir, upon the 1st, the 4th, the 9th,
the 10th, and the 5th amendments to the Constitution in declining to
answer this question.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the photograph appearing on
page 2 of the application for passport and state whether or not it is a
photograph of you ?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the strange interpretations which I
have heard given to the doctrine of waiver, I am on the grounds al-
ready stated declining to answer any question in that area.

Mr. Tavenner. May I suggest the witness be directed to answer.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question, Mr. Hardyman.

Mr. Hardyman. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but in view of the
first

Mr. Doyle. You don't need to be sorry. Just please give your
constitutional grounds.

Mr. Hardyman. On the basis of the 1st, 4th, 9th, 10th, and Hth
amendments to the Constitution, I am declining to answer that ques-
tion. I would, sir, prefer to oblige the chairman.

Mr. Jackson. That is novel.

Mr. WiRiN. You notice he didn't mention other members of the
committee.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Hardyman, will you examine on page 2 of the
application the name appearing there, George Hugh Murray Mait-
land Plardyman, and state whether or not it is a facsimile of your
signature ?

Mr. Hardyivian. In view, sir, of the objections already stated, I
am declining to answer any questions in that area.

Mr. Doyle. On what grounds?

Mr. Hardyman. On the ground of the 1st, 4th, 9th, 10th, and 5th
amendments to the Constitution of the United States.

Mr. WiRiN. Do you want him to repeat these grounds, Mr. Chair-
man, at every point ?

Mr. Doyle. No; we can agree when he states he declines, to an-
swer the question we will understand that he pleads the same five
amendments. That will save time.

Mr. Hardyman. Thank you, sir.

1578 COMlVrUNIST activities in the LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. DoTi.E, I direct you to answer the last question. Did you hear
the last question ?

Mr. Hardyman. Was that while you were talking, Mr. Tavenner
said something, I didn't hear it.

Mr. Doyle. Read the last question, Mr. Reporter, to the witness.

Mr. Tavenner. My point was to direct the witness, if you choose,
to answer the question. He refused but I think if the committee de-
sires to stand upon the matter it should direct him to answer.

Mr. Doyle. I renew my direction that you answer Mr. Tavenner's
last question.

Mr. Hardyman. My answer, sir, is the same words as before stand-
ing on the five amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the photostatic copy of the pass-
port in evidence, which was obtained by subpena duces tecum from
the State Department, and request that it be marked "Hardyman
Exhibit No. 1" for identification only.

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

Mr. WiRiN. Do you want the docvunent back ?

Mr. Tavenner. You may keep it there. You may desire to con-
sult it.

Mr. Scherer. Let me look at it.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Hardyman, the date on wliich the applicant
swore to its contents before Edmund L. Smith, clerk, United States
District Court, Southern District of California, was September 9,
1952. Will you state whether or not shortly after September 9, 1952,
you engaged in travel abroad ?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the reasons already stated, I am declin-
ing to answer any questions in that area, Mr. Counsel, including this
one.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion whether or not he traveled abroad.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Hardyman. On the basis of the five amendments already cited,
I am declining to answer that question.

Mr, Tavenner. In September 1952 were you affiliated with the
Southern California Peace Crusade ?

Mr. Hardyman. One minute, I want to check on the meaning of a
word.

(The witness conferred with his counsel)

Mr. Hardyman. I have been unable to ascertain just what the word
"affiliation" implies. I know there was a difference of opinion recently
on it in a local — no ; in another case.

Mr. Scherer. We are just ordinary people.

Mr, Hardyman. I note, however — you are not so ordinary people—
I will say I was a member, a contributor to, there was no official mem-
bership that I know of but a contributor to the Southern California
Peace Crusade in a small way: and have been for some time.

Mr. WiRiN. Is that sufficient, Mr. Scherer ?

Mr. Scherer. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of page 4 of the Jan-
uary 7, 1953, issue of the Daily People's World, and I will call your
attention to an article at the top of the page entitled "Peking Peace
Met. Delegate Tells of Results in a New China."

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1579

In the course of this article it is stated what Hugh Hardyman had
to say at this meeting and then there appears this paragraph:

Hardyman's trip was sponsored by the Southern California Peace Crusade.

Will you examine the document, please and state whether or not
the recitation of your sponsorship for a trip to China made by the
Southern California Peace Crusade organization was correct?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hardyman. With regard to China, I have refused to answer
questions in that area on the ground of the five amendments already
stated and, since this particular question is also in that area, I decline
to answer this particular question on the same grounds.

^Ir. Doyle. I instruct you to answer, Mr. Hardyman. You volun-
teered in answer to a question that you had contributed to this organ-
ization.

Mr. Hardyman. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. You identified yourself very willingly with it.

Mr. Hardyman. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. As a contributor in a small way.

Mr. Hardyman. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer the question.

Mr. Hardyman. I am excluding that area and questions in that area
for the five reasons that I have already stated, the area of my journey
or a journey referred to, and I decline to answer in that area.

I am answering questions about my age and so far as I was able to
aid in the Peace Work of the Peace Crusade in that area.

Mr. Doyle. Of course 3'ou volunteered you were contributor and we
hoped you would continue to volunteer to help us know how the Peace
Crusacle operated both in this country and in China.

Mr. Hardyman. Would you like to know liow I operated as far as
the Peace Crusade is concerned ?

Mr. Tavenner. Just answer first the questions I ask and we can
make better time.

Did the Southern California Peace Crusade sponsor your trip to
China?

Mr. Hardyman. Concerning my trip to China, sir, for the five
reasons already cited, I repeat that I am declining to answer that
question.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to cfier the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Hardyman Exhibit No. 2", for identification only.

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

Mr. Tavenner. Returning for the moment to Exhibit 1

Mr. WiRiN. May I have a moment, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. WiRiN. I have concluded my conference. I am glad it hasn't
been timed.

Mr. Tavenner. I read from page 2 of Exhibit No. 1, which is an ap-
plication for passport to be issued to you the following countries to be
visited : Australia, Canton Island, and so forth."

Did you go to Australia ?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the five amendments to the Constitution
already cited, I am declining to answer questions in this area for the
reasons already stated.

1580 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. ScHERER. Witness, the fact is you didn't go to Australia, isn't
that right?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the five amendments to the Constitution
already cited, I am declining to answer questions in this area.

Mr. Tavenner. It is stated on page 2 of Exhibit 1, your application
for passport, that the purpose of the trip is pleasure and visit to
a brother.

Do you have a brother in China, living in China ?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the five amendments to the Constitution
previously cited, sir, I am declining to answer questions in this area.

Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, Mr. Hardyman, the purpose of
your making an application had nothing to do with the pleasure trip
to see your brother, did it ?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of my previously made statements about
this area, sir, I am not going to deny the statement you just made, but
refrain from answering any questions in this field relying upon the
five amendments already cited.

Mr. Doyle. Do you have a brother ?

Mr. Hardyman. More than one.

Mr. Doyle. Where do they live ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hardyman. I have no brothers living in the United States and
for reasons already cited I am declining to answer questions with re-
gard to a journey outside the United States.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, the witness volunteered the fact that
he has more than one brother and thereby has in my opinion at least
to the extent that the question relates to his brother, waived his immun-
ity on that point. I request the witness be instructed to answer the
question.

Mr. ScHERER. Further, he said he had no brother living in the United
States, which also gives weight to the opinion of Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Doyle. Several times prior thereto he showed his familiarity
with the doctrine of waiver. I instruct you to answer the question,
Mr. Hardyman.

Mr. Hardyman. I do not think, sir, that I have waived my right
to decline to answer in the field of the question.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I want to go on record as not accept-
ing a claim of the fifth amendment as being at all related to his refusal
to answer this question and I ask that additional direction be given the
witness to answer the question.

Mr. Doyle. You heard Mr. Jackson's observation on behalf of the
committee that we don't accept your claim of the fifth amendment as
sufficient answer.

Mr. Hardyman. Yes, sir ; and

Mr. Doyle. Since you have heard it clearly and understand it, I
now direct you to answer the question as to where your brothers live.

Mr. Hardyman. Since my counsel feels that I have not waived the
right to refuse to reply to these questions, I am still on the grounds
above cited refusing to reply.

Mr. Doyle. Witness, you swore to the application for passport
and when you swore to that application did you tell the truth ?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the reasons already given and the five
amendments already cited, I am not replying to your question, sir.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1581

Mr. Doyle. Isn't it a fact that when you swore to that application
you lied as to the facts set forth in that application ?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the five amendments already cited, I
am not replying to that question, sir, whether it is courteously or dis-
courteously phrased.

Mr. Tavenner. The witness has not refused to answer, he just says
he declines to reply.

Mr. Doyle. You haven't yet

Mr. WiRiN. I will stipulate that when he says declines, he also
means he refuses.

Mr. Tavenner. We should not take it

Mr. WiRiN. I am trying to save time. You take all the time you
want.

Mr. Jackson. We intend to.

Mr. Doyle. We cannot accept your declination. Will you please
state in some way that you refuse to answer? We want a positive
refusal.

Mr. Hardyman. If you prefer the phrase "refuse to answer" from
"decline to reply" I will substitute it in the future.

Mr. Doyle. If you will, please, that is understood by us as a clear
refusal where declining may not be.

Mr. WiRiN. Decline is more gentlemanly.

Mr. Doyle. So will you please

Mr. Hardyman. Refuse to answer.

Mr. Doyle. Do what you want about the last question, but if you
intend to refuse to answer the question on the grounds of the five
amendments to the Constitution, please say so.

Mr. Hardyman. Very well.

I am refusing to answer this and preceding questions in which I
inadvisedly used the phrase "decline to reply," meaning "refuse to
answer" on the basis of the five cited amendments to the Constitution
of the United States.

Mr. Jackson. Do you know Anna Louise Strong ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the custom of certain persons employing
a tactic and implying guilt by association nowadays, a tactic which I
do not like, I am refraining from answering questions about other
people and this is a question about another person and I am not going
to answer it and I am citing the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th amendments
to the Constitution as my legal reasons for declining to answer, for
refusing to answer.

Mr. Jackson. May I ask if an honest answer to that question were
given by you would you be guilty by association with the party I have
named, or are you implying that she would be guilty by association
with you ? I am a little confused as to whose guilt is involved here.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hardyman. Was that a question, sir ?

Mr. Jackson. No, that was in the nature of an observation, Mr.
Hardyman.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Hardyman, isn't it a fact that on your appli-
cation for passport you advised the State Department of the United
States Government that you desired to visit Australia, Canton Island,
and so forth, in order to deceive the State Department as to the real

1582 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

destination that you had in mind, and the real purpose in making
your trip?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the nature or area in which the question
lies, and of the five amendments already cited, I am refusing to
answer ihis question.

Mr. Tavenner. You knew prior to your preparation of this pass-
port application, did you not, that an agenda had been prepared for
a so-called peace conference at Peking, China, to be held in October
of 1952; did you not?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the reasons already cited and the five
amendments to the Constitution already stated, I am refusing to
answer your question.

Mr. Tavenner. Your purpose was to attend that peace conference
as a delegate from the United States, or a so-called delegate or group
of people of which you were second in command ; did you not ?

Mr. Hardyman. Again I am refusing to answer this question on
the same grounds.

Mr. Tavenner. You knew that if you advised the State Department
or if the State Department learned that you were attending this par-
ticular meeting that you would not be granted a passport, didn't you ?

Mr. Hardyman. Again, sir, on the same grounds I am refusing to
answer this question.

Mr. ScHERER. When were you naturalized?

Mr. Hardyman. 1927, September, I think 8th, pretty sure it was
8th. I am certain of the month and year, in New York City.

Mr. Tavenner. How many other persons engaged in the same
type of fraud on the State Department in obtaining a passport which
would permit travel in China ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ScHERER. Not only fraud, but it was obvious perjury because
they had to swear to the application.

Mr. WiRiN. Mr. Chairman, could you keep order so that when I
speak to my witness there is no colloquy so I can hear what is going
on?

Mr. D0YI.E. Proceed. We are not always looking in your direc-
tion and can't always tell when you are conferring with your client.
You have that privilege before this committee.

Mr. WiRiN. I thought it was obvious and audible.

Mr. DoYLE. We were not looking at you at that time.

Mr. WiRiN. I have concluded my conference.

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the amendments already cited, I am
refusing to answer this question.

Mr. Tavenner. Instead of traveling west to Australia you in fact
traveled to Paris, when you left the United States, didn't you?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the amendments already cited, sir,
I am refusing to answer this question.

Mr. Tavenner. You didn't advise anyone in the State Depart-
ment that you were traveling to Paris, did you ?

Mr. Hardyman. I am refusing to answer this question for the
reasons already cited.

Mr. Tavenner. You obtained in Paris from the Czechoslovakian
Embassy on September 19, 1952, a 3-month visa to enter Czecho-
slovakia, didn't you ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1583

Mr. Hardtman. In view of the amendments already cited, I am
refusing to answer this question.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you travel in Czechoslovakia?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the amendments already cited, I am
ref usino; to answer this question.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in the so-called peace conference
in Peking in October 1952 ?

Mr. Hardyman. I am refusing to answer this question on the
grounds of the 1st, 5th, 4th, 9th, and 10th amendments already
cited.

Mr. WiRiN. Could we have a stipulation, Mr. Chairman, that there
need be no re]:>etition of the various amendments? Would that be
agreeable, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, it has always been acceptable practice.

Mr. D0YI.E. It is so ordered, if that is agreeable.

Mr. WiRiN. By all members of the conmiittee ?

Mr. Doyle. We all accept.

Mr. WiRiN. Very well.

Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Doyle. Before our distinguished counsel asks — —

Mr. WiRiN. Are you referring to Mr. Tavenner ?

]Mr. Doyle. Yes, Mr. Tavenner. I always refer to him as dis-
tinguished counsel because I am sure all we members

Mr. Tavenner. This isn't on the record, is it?

Mr. Doyle. Yes. We members of the American Bar recognize
him as distinguished counsel, don't we, Mr. Wirin ?

Mr. Wirin. Yes. You remember you called me that yesterday. I
hope you don't withdraw that remark.

Mr. Doyle. I don't withdraw it.

I want to thank those in the courtroom for your courteous quiteness
all this afternoon. It is very helpful to us and I am sure we all
appreciate it.

Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I referred several times to the so-
called Peking Peace Conference and the witness' alleged knowledge
of that conference.

I desire now to present to the witness a statement prepared by the
Department of State and released on October 1, 1952. I ask the wit-
ness whether or not he was aware of the existence of that press release
prior to the 10th day of October 1952.

(Document handed to witness; witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hardyman. It seems to me that in view of the area to which
this document relates, being the same as the other area in questions
immediately preceding this one, I am citing the amendments previously
cited as the legal reason for my refusal to answer this question.

Mr. Tavenner. You do then refuse to answer ?

Mr. Hardyman. I am refusing to answer this question for the rea-
sons previously cited, including the five amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to introduce the document in evidence and
ask that it be marked ''Hardyman Exhibit No. 3."

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.
65500— 55— rt. 1 11

1584 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, our State Department viewed the
matter of this so-called peace conference with such alarm that it issued
release No. 771 on October 1, 1952, which I shall read.

Mr. ScHERER. Before you read it let me ask about that date. Was
that prior to the date of this witness' application for passport?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir ; it was prior to the conference but after the
date of his application. The heading is "Peking Peace Conference."

Asked for comment on the so-called Peking Peace Conference and reports that
a number of Americans are allegedly attending as delegates, Secretary of State
Dean Acheson at his news conference today made the following extempoi-aneous
reply :

"This conference is, of course, an obvious propaganda operation in which the
Chinese Communists while taking active part in defying the United Nations and
carrying the war into Korea and while they are going with the Soviet Government
in its violent "hate campaign," are continuing to hold "peace conferences." I
think this deceives nobody. In regard to your other question about the Ameri-
cans, we have heard reports that certain American citizens were attending.
From the reports that we have gotten we think we have about 15 of these
Americans identified.

"Now some of them were in China already. However, no persons have been
issued passports to attend this conference or have asked for passports to attend
the conference. All passports have been stamped since May 1, 'Not valid for
travel to China.' We are now making efforts to find out whether any of the
people that we have identified have obtained passports on false information fur-
nished to the Department or whether they have violated the instruction which is
on the passport. That is stamped on it as I have said, and there are appropriate
statutes which cover both of these cases."

Mr. Hardyman, was there stamped on a passport delivered to you
the language "Not valid for travel to China" ?

Mr. Hardy]man. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons
already cited.

Mr. Tavenner. Although this release was apparently after you
started on your trip or at least prior to the actual holding of the con-
ference, it expressed the concern and the viewpoint of the Department
of State with relation to that conference. So now I want to ask you,
I want to base a question on the Federal regulations covering the issu-
ance of passports.

Title 22, chapter 1, part 51, subpart (b), section 51.135 to 51.143 of
the Code of Regulations deals with limitations on the issuance of pass-
ports to persons supporting Communist movements. I will read the
first and the last paragraph of the regulations. The first paragraph
begins as follows :

In order to promote the national interest by assuring that persons who support
the world Communist movement of which the Communist Party is an integral
unit, may not through use of United States passports further the purpose of that
movement, no passport except one limited for direct and immediate return to
the United States shall be issued to —

and it names three classifications of persons. One is members of the
Communist Party or, rather, paragraph (c) is as follows:

Persons regardless of the formal state of their affiliation with the Communist
Party as to whom there is reason to believe on the balance of all the evidence
that they are going abroad to engage in activities which will advance the Com-
munist movement for the purpose knowingly and willfully of advancing that
movement —

in other words, that is the class to which passports shall not be issued.
Now, my question is: Did you intend to deceive the State Depart-
ment by the statements you swore to on your application in order that

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1585

they not have an opportunity to consider your case under rule (c)
which I have just read ?

Mr. Hardyman. I am refusing to answer this question for the
reasons already cited.

Mr. Tavenner. You very well knew, did you not, Mr. Hardyman,
that if you had told the State Department the truth, you would not
have been granted a passport by reason of this very provision which I
have read ?

Mr. HAEDTMAisr. I am refusing to answer that question for the
reasons already cited.

Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, it is obvious that a fraud was perpe-
trated on the State Department, that false statements were made in
this witness' application for a passport. In view of that I think this
is one of those cases that should be referred to the Department of
Justice to determine whether or not denaturalization proceedings
should be commenced under the law. I will so move when the com-
mittee is in executive session.

Mr. Doyle. Very well, Mr. Scherer.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you serve on a special committee in the peace
conference held at Peking known as the Korean Committee or Korean
Commission ?

Mr. Hardyman. I am refusing to answer this question for the
reasons already cited.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you make a speech for purposes of broadcast
from Communist China to the United States on the subject of that
conference ?

Mr. Hardyman. This question, too, in the same area, I am refusing
to answer for the reasons already cited.

Mr. Tavenner. Was there a broadcast from Communist China to
Iron Curtain countries and other parts of the world recording a speed i
which you made on or prior to November 2, 1952 ?

Mr. Hardyman. This question I am refusing to answer for the
reasons already cited.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Mr. Chairman, the staff in the course of this investi-
gation has procured from the State Department a recording of a talk
made by Hugh Hardyman, American delegate to the Asian and Pa-
cific Peace Conference, which I desire to introduce in evidence and
ask that it be marked "Hardyman Exhibit No. 4," for identification
only.

Mr. Doyle. Do I understand this is his voice over in China ?

Mr. Tavenner. I don't know. It is a recorded talk by Hugh Hardy-
man. That is all I can say.

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

Mr. Tavenner. I believe upon looking further at the article that
your question is answered by a part which I will read.

Text (announcer) : Today we bring you another in our series of recorded talks
loy delegates to the recent Asian and Pacific Peace Conferences held in Peking.
At this time we bring you a statement by the deputy leader of the United States
delegation, Hugh Hardyman. Mr. Hardyman is a journalist and a retired fruit-
grower from the State of California. Now here is Mr. Hardyman. (Hardyman) —

and then the speech continues. So I will not take the time to read in
its entirety.

Mr. Scherer. Was that an original speech made in China?

1586 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir; and broadcast from Communist China.

Mr. ScHERER. What year ?

Mr. Tavenner. November 2, 1952, or November 3, 1952. I am not
certain which.

Mr. ScuERER. We had boys fighting in Korea against the Chinese
at tlie time, did we not ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Doyle. Let me ask this as to the dates. Weren't the Chinese
Communists attacking United States and United Nations troops in
South Korea at tliat time ?

Mr. Scherer. That is what I said.

Mr. Scherer. We were at war witli Communist China.

Mr. Doyle. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.

I quote from page AAA-19.

Mr. Jackson. May I interrupt ? Might it not be well to let the wit-
ness look at it and see if he objects to it as not being his speech, or
cares to make any statement on it before it is quoted ?

Mr. Tavenner. All right, sir.

Mr. Hardyman, I hand you Exhibit No. 4 and offer you the oppor-
tunity of examining it and stating whether or not it appears to be
an address made by you.

Mr. Scherer. What were our total casualties in Korea ?

Mr. Jackson. 26,000 dead.

Mr. Wheeler. 140,000 total.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer tlie question, please, sir?

Mr. Hardyman. I am not answering any questions in tliis area for
the reasons which I have already cited, the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th
amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. You mean you refuse to answer ?

]Mr. Hardyman. I refuse to answer.

Mr. Tavenner. For the reasons you have previously given?

Mr. Hardyman. Correct.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I will read only a few short portions :

At no point in all tlie hundred speeches delivered in the plenary sessions of
the conference, nor even in the long sessions of the commission on the question
of Korea in which this speaker took part was there a single expression of hatred
or enmity toward the American people. The conference condemned vigorously
the actions by our Government, especially the use of biological warfare for
the spreading of disease in Korea and northeast China.

Mr. Scherer. Is this from this man's speech ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. [Reading.]

a careful study of the report of the International Scientific Commission and
the extensive collection of evidence on exhibition here, including the hand-
written testimony of 4 of our pilots and the tape records of their voices,
have left not the slightest doubt in the minds of any delegates to this confer-
ence, including the 14 delegates from the United States, that our Government
has used this revolting method of warfare on a wide scale but the blame for
this crime against mankind was never once placed on us, the American people.

Mr. Hardyman, did you make that statement for the purpose of
broadcast to tlie Iron Curtain countries ?

Mr. Hardyman. In view of the reasons already cited, I am not
answering, I am not answering that question, I am refusing to answer
that question.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1587

Mr. Jackson. May I say, Mr. Chairman, I think that is one of the
most reprehensible statements I have ever heard from a citizen of the
United States, natural born or foreign born.

Mr. Doyle. Of course it is known to be false. The President of
the United States and heads of our military departments on several
occasions affirmed that there was no such use of military power on
the part of the American troops or United Nations troops.

Mr. ScHERER. Of course the record is abundant with the torture
that American boys were subjected to by the Communists in order to
gain such confessions. Everybody can read.

Mr. DoYLE. I want to say that, as a member of the Armed Services
Committee of the United States Congress and as an American Con-
gressman, I resent the dastardly lie it is.

Mr. Tavenner (continuing) :

Delegates of all countries from Japan to Syria recognized we were ignorant
of the action ordered by our Government, and that we were kept in ignorance by
the administration. The belief was repeatedly expressed that if the American
people knew the true facts of the conduct of the Korean war they would insist
upon an immediate change of Government policy.

Mr. Doyle. I think my colleagues know I w^as in Korea myself as
a member of the Armed Services Committee.

Mr. Scherer. Isn't that part of the speech giving aid and comfort
to the enemy ? That is treason.

Mr. Tavenner. I read another paragraph :

No one can say for how long the peoples of the Pacific regions will continue to
hold us guiltless of the actions of our Ai-med Forces. If we continue to allow
our Government to export disease and death to Asia and machines for the de-
struction of lives to both Asia and Latin America, the time must come when
not merely the Government officials but the people who elect those officials will
be held responsible by the majority of the people in the world for these crimes
against humanity.

I will read another paragraph relating to propaganda use of germ
warfare by the United States as stated by this witness, according to
the record of it received from the State Department.

Mr. Doyle. You mean the United States Department of State?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. [Reading:]

But if we continue to spread anthrax and the plague to rearm the very
Fascists of Germany and Japan which promoted the World War II in the name
of anticom.munism and to support the colonialism in Southeast Asia and Latin
America, there is grave danger that we may reach before long the point of no
return.

Mr. Hardyman, do you think that you could have obtained a
passport to make those utterances from Connnunist China under pro-
vision (c) of the regulations which I read you about denying the right
of passport to persons going abroad to engage in activities which will
advance the Communist movement ?

Mr. Hardyman. For the reasons already cited I refuse to answer
that question.

Mr. Scherer. If I was in the position of this witness I think I
would refuse to talk too.

Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes.

Mr. Jackson. Have you served in the Armed Forces of the United
States?

Mr. Hardyman. No.

1588 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Jackson. Was there any particular reason why you did not?
Were you too old for service in World War II ?

Mr. Hardyman. Too youn^ in World War I, too old in World
War II.

Mr. Jackson. Did you perform any voluntary service during the
war in this country for the Ked Cross or Community Chests ?

Mr. Hardyman. I had 25 hours a week of voluntary service.

Mr. Jackson. Was this before or after abrogation of the Nazi-
Sovi t^t nonaggression pact ?

Mr. Hardyman. During the war, when the United States was en-
gaged in a war to end fascism.

Mr. Jackson. With which side in the Korean conflict were your
sympathies, Mr. Hardyman — with the United States and the United
Nations, or with the North Koreans and Chinese Communists ?

Mr. Hardyman. My sympathies were with the dead on both sides,,
sir.

Mr. Jackson. More specifically, were your sympathies more with the
dead on one side than the other ?

Mr. Hardyman. The human dead in the Korean war, both Korean
and American to me is life's tragedy.

Mf. Jackson. Did you approve of United Nations policy with re-
spect to Korea ?

Mr. Hardyman. No, sir.

Mr. Jackson. Did you approve of the Chinese entry into the war on
the side of the North Koreans ?

Mr. Hardyman. AVould you restate that question in accordance with
facts?

Mr. Jackson. Yes; I will restate the question exactly as it hap-
pened and quite factually. In June 2, 1950, the North Koreans at-
tacked across the 38th parallel; they were joined in due course some
months after by the Chinese Communists. Did you approve of the
entry of the Chinese Communists into that engagement with the high
regard you have for human life on both sides?

Mr. Hardyman. Would you restate your question in accordance
with the facts, sir ?

Mr. Jackson. Did you approve of the entry of the Chinese Com-
munists into the war in Korea ? That is a historic fact.

Mr. Hardyman. I decline to answer a question so phrased, sir.

Mr. Jackson. Very well, I was sure you would.

Mr. Moulder. In the event of an attack upon our country, the
United States of America, by Soviet Russia, would you join in the
defense of our country ?

Mr. Hardyman. In the event of the invasion of the United States
I would favor throwing the invaders out by every man, woman and
child in the United States. I am opposed to the invasion of any coun-
try by the armed forces of another country. I would advocate defense
of the United States.

Mr. Moulder. In the event we were engaged in war with Soviet
Russia would you be willing to serve in our Armed Forces in such a
struggle ?

Mr. Hardyman. If any country were to invade this country

Mr. ScHERER. He is not talking

Mr. WiRiN. He is answering the question.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1589

Mr. Hardyman". I would be willing to share in the armed defense
of this country no matter who the invaders happened to be.

Mr. ScHERER. Will you yield ?

Mr. Moulder. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. Suppose we were engaged in a war with Soviet Russia
and they did not invade the United States. What would your answer
be?

Mr. Hardyman. I am afraid your question is too iffy to be answered.

Mr, Scherer. I noticed you qualified your answer on both occasions
by saying if they invaded the United States.

Mr. Doyle. I have no question of the witness. I haven't words
with which to phrase a question to meet this sort of dastardly false
attack upon the military policy of the Nation which gave you citizen-
ship. I am ashamed of you.

Mr. Tavenner, Was it a part of the propaganda plan created at
this peace conference or indicated in any other place that you should
go to any other Iron Curtain countries and also broadcast from there ?

Mr. Hardyman. I am refusing to answer this question along with
others in the like area for the reasons already cited.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you travel to Poland ?

Mr. Hardyman. I am refusing to answer this question like the
former ones in the same area for the reasons already cited.

Mr. Tavenner. The conference that I have referred to occurred in
October 1952. As late as March 8, 1953, were you in Prague?

Mr. Hardyman. I am refusing to answer questions in that area, Mr.
Counsel, for the reasons already cited.

Mr. Scherer. See if we can't get out of this area and see if he will
answer questions.

Mr. WiRiN. Good idea.

Mr. Jackson. Would the Chair direct counsel to refrain from
gratuitous comments which seem to be a regular habit of his.

Mr. Scherer. Which are contrary to the rules of the committee.
He has been in contempt of the committee all afternoon. He knows
the rules.

Mr. Doyle. Please give us your full cooperation,

Mr. WiRiN. I will, but you luive no right to comment upon the testi-
mony of the witness. You are not a court. The Supreme Court said
you are not a court in these decisions.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Wirin is in violation of the rules and I ask that
he be instructed to refrain.

Mr. Doyle, Please, Mr, Wirin,

Mr. Wirin. I shall exercise self-restraint and I hope members of the
committee do also.

Mr. Doyle. I think I exercised a good deal of restraint in hearing
what your witness had done,

Mr. Wirin. You are not a court. I shall not say any more,

Mr. Doyle, Thank you,

Mr. Tavenner, Were you in Poland on November 28, 1952 ?

Mr, Hardyman. I am refusing to answer this question for the rea-
sons already cited.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you take part in a broadcast from Warsaw in
English to North America on November 24, 1952 ?

1590 COMMimiST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Hardyman. For the reasons already cited, I am refusing to
answer this question.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the staff during the course of the
investigation has procured from the State Department a record of a
broadcast on November 24, 1952, from Warsaw which I desire to intro-
duce in evidence and request that it be marked "Hardyman Exhibit
No. 5."

Mr. Doyle. It will be so marked and so received.

(The exhibit referred to is as follows :)

Hardyman Exhibit No. 5

- FF 1 -
POLAND
Nov. 28, 1952

AMERICAN PEKING EEIEGATES INTERVIEWED

Warsaw, in Englieh tc North America, Nov. 2k, 1952, 1215 GMT— E

(Sumniary with Quotations)

We are at Warsaw's ta-Tious Bristol Hotel and ffith us is a guest from
America: he is l^. Hugh jHajrjaiaar.) of Los Angeles, retired fruit
grower of SoutherTTfalifornis and jiidepandfint Journalist. He has
just returned froiD Peking where he attended the peace conference of the
Asiatic region as a delegate of peace-loving /Vinerican people,

Mr, (HardiE&n): "The delegates to the great Peking Peace Conference,
have been privileged tc see a strong peopie rejoicing in tieir strength.
Onlv the incredibly rotten (rulers) of the past 130, years have kept
l50J^ny of the Chines? people poor. Tc<}6y, ur.cl.'.r the CcTOiv,nl6t Go'.-ernment,
the people are beginning to enjcy the i'mnense wislth of Lheir r.ouDtry
so that in 3 years th^^ pi'.rchasiiig power of the average peGS£>nt has
increased by 70 percent.

"For the first time the 400 million farriers of China ha\-e enough food

to eat end clothes to wear. For the city worker hunger erd vuaeniplcyinent

are things of the ps.st, while the futuT-e holds brilliant prcsr,i6e„

Great housing projects are rising in rh'^ suburbs of every city replacing

the ancient fIuojs. In 4 montlis the (Fiery Yor.g) villa at Shanghai was

built of solid brick and soil rehousing 5, COO people. The workers'

housing project at Mukden is taking 5 months to complete for 15,000 people,

"In every city the story is the same; thousands of new hemes (are seen)
outside Peking, Nanking, (Pangchan), Suchow, Tientsin, and Hangchow.
In ciity and country the people see their hopes for a better life being
realized day by day. And it is not only the young people, but often
those in middle life, who sing as they walk down the street.

"Sure of themselves, people could and did trust strangers. To them to
were people and people were friendly. We were symbols of peace and peace
was a joyful thing. They would seize our hands and laugh and cry saying
long live world peace, dancing up and down, up and down, with
irresistible gaiety until we dragged our hands away leaving our hearts
behind."

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1591

- FF 2 - POLAND

Nov. 28, 1952

At the conference in Peking delegates from every country in Asia^
except Afghanistan and Nepal^ and from the Latin American countries
from Mexico to Chile, met. For the first time excited people from
both sides of the Pacific came together and "found absolute unity in
their desire for freedon frcsn econcmic exploitation and political
interference. National independence with trade and diplomatic
exchange on an equal basis — with emphasis on the word equal — is what
these 1,600 million people want. Tney abhor the rearmament of Japan
and the unequal treaty on which that remilitarization is based.

"With one voice these leaders of various faiths and diverse political
parties condemned the monstrous killing of Koreans, of Malayans, of
Vietnamese, by invading armies of the profit-seeking West. None
doubted that the cause of all this slaughter and grief ggain is the
ciieap labor and rich land of peoples who once were weak. Nor did any
delegates believe that the old oppression could long endure in those
countries not yet free or be re imposed on people such as the Vietnamese
who have declared their independence and are defending their liberation
by force of arms,, The conference was an assertion of the unity of the
former colonial peoples of two continents, unity for a program of peace
and freedom for all,

"No bacterial horror, no hydrogen bombs, will defeat the people uJiited
to the last man in the determination to be free end to defend their
freedon. For the people of tl-ie streets of Peking and the villagers and
V^orkers in factories a thousand miles fran the capital there is one message
leixey would like carried to the people of the United States. They want
peace. Tell the American people we are friends, they said again and again,
tell them that we have our independence, at last, and that we are making
a better life."

^^AnrUJ^iUfr^ Speaks

War^awy in English to North America, Nov. 25, 1952, 1215 CMH—E

(Interview, with Mrs. Anita Willcox, who is returning from the Peking
Peace Conference of the Asian and Pacific Regions)

(Text)

With us, before the mike, is a guest from America, She is Mrs,
Anita Willcox of New York City, artist, mother of five children, and an
enthusiastic fighter for peace,, Mrs. Willcox is on her way back to the
United States from Peking where she attended the Peace Conference of the
Asian and Pacific Regions as a delegate of peace-loving American people.

Announcer: "How do you like Warsaw?"

Mr. Tavenner. Are you personally acquainted with an individual
by the name of Dr. John A. Kingsbury ?

Mr. Hardtman. For reasons already stated, I am declining to answer
that question, refusing to answer that question.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I desire to introduce in evidence
a photostatic copy of page 4 of the December 24, 1952, issue of the
Daily People's World. I will read a paragraph appearing there :

Los Angeles report on Asia peace met January 8. A first report on the Peking
peace conference of Asia and the Pacific regions will be made to Southern Cali-
fornians Tuesday, January 8, the Southern California Peace Crusade announced

1592 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

today. Hugh Hardyman, veteran journalist and vice chairman of the American
delegation to the Asian conference, will make the formal report of conference
proceedings in the meetings set for the Embassy Auditorium.

Did you take part in making of such a report, Mr. Hardyman, at the
instance of the Southern California Peace Crusade ?

Mr. Hardyman, I am refusing to answer that question for the
reasons already cited.

Mr. Tavenner. May the document be introduced, Mr. Chairman,
and marked "Hardyman Exhibit No. 6," for ideiitification only.

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I also offer in evidence a photo-
static copy of page 6 of the January 7, 1953 edition of the Daily
People's World which has in a block column the following statement :

Report from Peking by Hugh Hardyman, journalist, just returned from
Peking, China. Dr. John A. Kingsbury, former member New York State Health
Commission, recently traveled throughout New China. Thursday, January 8,
8 p. m., Embassy Auditorium, auspices of the Southern California Peace Crusade.

I request that it be marked "Hardyman Exhibit No. 7," for identi-
fication only.

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

Mr. Tavenner. You declined to answer whether or not you knew
Dr. Kingsbury, so I desire to offer in evidence a pliotostatic copy of
page 6, January 12, 1953, edition of the Daily People's World. The
caption of the article I have reference to is "Hardyman tells of New
China's might." The article proceeds to describe or to narrate your
statements there. Then the last half of the article is related to Dr.
Kingsbury and the Reds as follows :

Dr. Kingsbury. Toward communism their attitude is one of encouraging coop-
eratives and credit unions of all kinds with the aim of achieving a Socialist
China after a period of time possibly as much as 35 or 40 years. Beyond that
the Government hopes for communism, the leaders of the government are Com-
munists. Peter Hyun, executive director of the Southern California Peace
Crusade, chaired the meeting. Dr. John A. Kingsbury, former member of the
New York State Health Commission, who helped prepare the advance agenda
for the Peking Peace Conference, told of the preliminary deliberations.

You were there and took part in that program, according to this
article in the public press. Were you there and did you take part in
that program ?

Mr. Hardyman. For the reasons already cited, I am refusing to
answer this question.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what part Dr.
Kingsbury played in the preparation of the advance agenda of this
so-called peace conference in China ?

Mr. Hardyman. I am refusing to answer that question for the
reasons given already.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you play any part in the preparation of the
advance agenda ?

Mr. Hardyman. That question too, like the preceding question, I
am refusing to answer for the scrounds already cited.

Mr. Tavenner. Did Peter Hyun, the executive director of the South-
ern California Peace Crusade, have any part in arranging for your
trip to China or arranging for the agenda of that meeting?

Mr. Hardyman. I am refusing to answer this question for the reasons
given already.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1593

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not Peter Hyun was a
member of the Communist Party at the time he was executive director
of the Southern California Peace Crusade ?

Mr. Hardtman. This question too I am refusing to answer for the
reasons ah-eady cited.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire that document be marked "Hardyman Ex-
hibit No. 8," for identification only.

Mr. Doyle. It will bs so received and so mar Iced.

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a pamphlet entitled "Report from
China," by Hugh Hardyman, price 10 cents. Will you examine it,
please.

(Document handed to witness.)

Mr. Ta\tenner. Are you the author of that pamphlet ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hardyman. For the reasons already given, I am refusing to
answer that question.

Mr. Tavexxer. I desire to offer the document in evidence, Mr. C!hair-
man, and ask that it be marked "Hardyman Exhibit No. 9," for iden-
tification only.

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to read the cover sheet. From the cover
sheet appears a biography of Mr. Hugh Hardyman, during the course
of which appears this language :

He was one of 16 delegates from the United States to the Peace Conference of
the Asian and Pacific regions in Peliing October 2 to 10, 19.o2. After the con-
ference he traveled 3,000 miles through China, visiting cities and villages from
Shinyang (Mukden) in the northeast to Hangchow and ShanghaL

On the back of the pamphlet appears in block form :

Additional copies from Southern California Peace Crusade, 326 west Third
Street, room 310, Los Angeles 13, Calif.

Mr. Chairman, there is no date on it.

Did the Southern California Peace Crusade publish this report and
disseminate it?

(The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Hardyman. I am refusing to answer that question on the
grounds and for the reasons already given, still in the same area.

Mr. Tavenner. You have told the committee of your support, if I
understood you correctly, membership and affiliation with the South-
ern California Peace Crusade. Was it a branch or affiliate of the
American Peace Crusade ?

Mr. Hardyman. I think it was an independent organization locally,
although it cooperated with the American Peace Crusade. It was so
far as I know completely independent in operation, planning, meetings
held, and finances and so on.

Mr. Ta\'enner. Mr. Chairman, I have seen a document on that sub-
ject which I am having forwarded to me from Washington and it
should arrive before we leave San Diego. I will not comment on it
but I will want to put it in evidence and I make reference to it here
so it may easily be found by any one interested when they look at the
San Diego hearings.

Mr. Doyle. Very well.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you one of the initial sponsors of the Ameri-
can Peace Crusade ?

1594 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hardyman. I am sorry, I can't remember. I don't know. It
is possible, but I don't know.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I have before me a letterhead of
the American Peace Crusade under date of February 25, 1953, which
has on its margin a list of initial sponsors.

Mr. WiRiN. May we see it, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner, And Mr. Hugh Hardyman's name appears on that
list. I hand the document to the witness and ask him if the letterhead
refreshes his recollection.

Mr. Hardyman. I would think it very likely that I was one of the
initial sponsors, I am certainly not denying it, I just don't happen to
remember any specific occasions on which my sponsorship began.

Mr, Tavenner. The reference to the document does not refresh
your recollection, then, is that correct ?

Mr. Hardyman. It does not refresh my recollection. Seeing the
name there and seeing the list, I w^ould expect it to be accurate.

Mr. Tavenner, Your name does appear there on the letterhead as
one of the initial sponsors,

Mr, Hardyman, Yes, and I would assume that to be correct, but
memory is at fault there.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in a movement initiated by the
American Peace Crusade to bring the American soldiers home from
Korea ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hardyman. Have you a document of some kind which would
narrow this thing down a little bit,

Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you first to answer the question.

Mr. Hardyman. The question is rather too broad a question. If
you narrow it down a bit I may know more what you are talking
about.

Mr. Tavenner, Very well, sir.

Mr, Hardyman, But I will say this : From the time the first Ameri-
cans went to Korea until the last came back — and they aren't all back
yet — I have been in favor of bringing them all home as quickly as
physically possible.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you one of the initial sponsors of a movement
by the American Peace Crusade entitled "Let the People Speak or
Peace," the purpose of which was to "Bring our boys home from
Korea and make peace with China now," as appears from the top of
the document. Do you see your name there ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. WiRiN. May we look at the document ?

Mr. Hardyman. My assumption on seeing this document, sir, is
that I am quite properly cited as a sponsor. I certainly am wholly in
sympathy with what I see proposed here. Peace in Korea and let us
negotiate peace with China. This had I been asked to sign, I would
have done and I expect I was and did with enthusiasm and undoubtedly
gave all possible aid that I could to the promotion of such a program.

Mr. Tavenner. Who secured your sponsorship of that document?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF,, AREA 1595

Mr. Hardyman, I am refusing to answer that question, sir, for the
reasons already given, the amendments to the Constitution already
cited.

Mr. WiRiN. Mr. Chairman, how long do you go as a rule ? I wasn't
here yesterday afternoon.

Mr. D0YI.E. Until 5 or 5 : 15, we hope. It may be longer tonight.

May I ask one question while you are getting ready, Counsel ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Witness, a few minutes ago you said — I am sure it
is almost the exact words — that you were in favor of bringing the
American boys home from Korea as soon as physically possible. Do
you remember so saying ?

Mr. Hardyman. I do.

JNlr. Doyle. As I think of your answer I am realizing that it
would have been physically possible to have brought the American
boys home at most any time and let the Chinese Communists and the
Soviets take all of South Korea as they pleased. I think that was
true, wasn't it? I mean it wouldn't have been a difficult matter for
the American military to back out of South Korea and leave the few
United Nations troops that were there and come on back home. That
would have been physically possible.

Mr. Hardyman. I believe, sir, we could arrange even now for all
foreign troops to be brought out of Korea on both sides.

Mr. DoYLE. I noticed your wording. You stated as soon as phys-
ically possible.

Mr. Hardyman. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. I take it therefore you meant in your answer that you
were advocating then — at least that was your voluntary answer, the
effect of your answer in my mind is that you were in favor at that time
of the American troo]3s coming home and let the Chinese Communists
take over South Korea if they wanted to. Is that what you intended ?

Mr. Hardyman. I would have brought all American troops home
if I could have made a deal with any other country that had troops
there to get their troops out at the same time.

I would make that deal, too. I would like to get all foreign troops
out of other countries. I think we could do it sir, if you pressed for
it in Congress.

Mr. Doyle. I interpreted your answer — I don't want to misjudge
you — ^I interpreted your answer that you were quite willing to have
American troops come home and United Nations troops get out —
you didn't qualify your answer by saying provided other nations
would get their troops out of there, too.

Mr. Hardyman. That is true, sir ; I did not.

Mr. Doyle. You intended, I suppose, for the committee to under-
stand you favored American troops getting out of there and letting
Chinese Communists take over ?

Mr. Hardyman. I would favor getting the Chinese out, too.

Mr. Doyle. You answered the way you intended to. You intended
me to understand that you favored American troops backing out of
South Korea and letting the Chinese Communists conquer South
Korea ?

Mr. Hardyman. I would prefer, sir, we would make an arrangement
whereby all foreign troops would be withdrawn, but failing that, if
that were not possible, I would still favor withdrawing of our own so

1596 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

that we are not taking men equipped with killing machinery inta the
lands of other people.

Mr. Doyle. And that would have resulted in Chinese Communists
capturing all of South Korea, wouldn't it, if we had backed our troops
out of there ?

Mr. Hardyman. I am no prophet on what would have resulted, sir.

Mr. Doyle. You don't have to be a prophet to know the answer to
that question. In other words, you were favoring, as I interpret your
answer — correct me if I am in error — you favored at that time United
Nations troops and American troops getting out of there and letting
Soviet Eussia and Chinese Communists take over South Korea?

Mr. Hardyman. Now you are adding something there. No one has
so far as I know until you brought it up, dragged Soviet Eussia into
Korea yet.

Mr. boYLE. I was in Korea and I learned that there were a good
many Eussian commanders over there helping the Chinese Commu-
nists, no question about that.

Mr. Hardyman. I don't know that, sir.

Mr. DoYLE. I was there in Korea.

Mr. Scherer. We don't need to depend upon his answer. All we
have to

Mr. Doyle. The record shows that.

Mr. Scherer. We have just to remember what he said when he was
behind the Iron Curtain, and giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

Mr. Doyle. His answer to me, as I understand it, would be to favor
the spread of Chinese communism in South Korea.

Mr. Scherer. Certainly.

Mr. Jackson. That is Soviet peace. You overlook the fact that
when you have Soviet peace, everybody gets out except the Soviets.
It is exactly what the Southern California Peace Crusade did, ex-
actly what the Stockholm Peace Appeal did and all the rest of the
phony petitions on peace.

Mr. WiRiN. We are here to answer questions and not listen to
speeches.

Mr. Jackson. You are here to advise your client on his constitu-
tional rights.

Mr. WiRiN. I am not here to listen to speeches.

Mr. Scherer. Counsel was warned repeatedly yesterday and today.
I ask that he be instructed to leave the room.

Mr. Doyle. Well

Mr. Scherer. I so move. He has continually violated the rules of
this committee. He knows better. He has been warned, and I have
told him I thought he was in contempt of this committee. His conduct
is certainly contemptuous and we are either going to run these hear-
ings or the lawyers who represent some of these witnesses will run this
committee. I move that he be ordered to leave the room.

Mr. Jackson. I am very pleased to second that motion.

Mr. Doyle. What do you say, Mr. Moulder ?

Mr. Moulder. I vote present.

Mr. Doyle. I heard your motion and I heard the second to it,,
but

Mr. Moulder. Let's proceed with the hearing.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 1597

Mr. Doyle. I am not going to comply with your motion at this
time.' I feel that Mr. Wirin must surely desist in the violation of
the committee rules.

Mr. Jackson. Your judgment is usually very good, Mr. Chairman,
but I would not be in accord with you in that baseless assumption.

Mr. ScHERER. I respectfully object, Mr. Chairman, to the ruling of
the Chair.

Mr. DoYLE. There is good evidence to the fact that Congressmen
sometimes honestly disagree.

Mr. Jackson. May I continue, the Chair having made its ruling.
I had gotten as far as the Stockholm Peace Appeal. We have seen a
number of these phony Soviet-inspired peace appeals spring up from
time to time in Los Angeles, in New York, Peking, Stockholm, the
Waldorf Astoria, New York. I think that if nothing else has been
done but to drive a few coffin nails into the Red-inspired and Red-
dominated Southern California Peace Crusade, its backing and its
ultimate goals, then this hearing has accomplished more than we could
possibly hope for.

Mr. Wirin. Am I to keep quiet ?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, you are. If you are going to remain in the
room you are going to keep quiet.

Mr. Wirin. Silence is not contempt.

Mr. Jackson. As long as it is silence, call it what you will.

Mr. Scherer. I renew my motion.

Mr. WiRiN. May I address the Chair ?

Mr. Doyle. No.

Mr. Scherer. I ask for a vote on my motion, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Doyle. I will entertain the motion. I have to, naturally.
Mr. Moulder ?

Mr. Moulder. Aye.

Mr. Doyle. Aye.

Mr. Jackson. Aye.

Mr. Scherer. Aye.

Mr. Doyle. The motion is carried.

Mr. Wirin. What about my client ?

Mr. D0Y1.E. We will have to give him an opportunity to have an-
other lawyer. He is entitled to legal counsel.

Mr. Jackson. So far as I am concerned, and based on the amount of
information we have obtained from this witness, his attorney can take
him with him.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, of course the committee is not fully
aware of the preparation made by the staff and there are a few vital
questions to ask this witness, and I suggest that in light of what has
happened, that I be permitted to ask those questions tomorrow morn-
ing.

Mr. Jackson. I certainly have no objection.

Ml". Tavenner. At which time the committee could consider whether
Mr. Wirin will come back with his client or whether the witness will
bring other counsel.

Mr. Doyle. Very well.

What is your wish about the recess of the committee ?

Mr. Tavenner. What I am saying is I do not think I should ask
these questions of the witness without his having counsel.

1598 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA

Mr. Doyle. That is true. We don't want the witness asked any
questions without a counsel being present.

Mr. Tavennek. So therefore I suggest that it go over until tomor-
row morning and that the committee rule on whether it shall permit
Mr, Wirin to come back in the morning, which I hope the committee
will do because he is prepared on the matter and another counsel may
not feel prepared.

Mr. Moulder. Do you intend to call another witness this afternoon ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.

Mr. Moulder. I move we adjourn.

Mr. Jackson. Second.

Mr. Doyle. The committee will recess until tomorrow morning, and
Mr. Hardyman will continue under subpena. We will convene at
9 o'clock in the morning.

(Whereupon, at 5 p. m. the committee was recessed, to reconvene at
.9 a. m. the following day, Wednesday, June 29, 1955.)

3 9999 05706 3222

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