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/INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES
IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA-Part 1
HEARINGS
^*V*r/X^^' BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Cv-n-<: >■ •
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
MARCH 23, 24, AND 25, 1953
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
INCLUDING INDEX
V ^
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UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
31747 WASHINGTON : 1953
/
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Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
JOtH^-1953
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois, Chairman
BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania
DONALD L. JACKSON, California MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri
KIT CLARDY, Michigan CLYDE DOYLE, California
GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee
Robert L. Kunzig, Counsel
Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel
Lodis J. Rdssell, Chief Investigator
Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk
Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research
n
CONTENTS
March 23, 1953:
Testimony of — Pag*
Danny Dare 268
Harold Adolph Hecht 293
Edward Heubsch 317
Philip Dey Eastman,.. 319
March 24, 1953:
Testimony of —
Julian Gordon 327
David A. Lang 336
Max Nathan Benoff 355
Francis Edward Faragoh 361
March 25, 1953:
Testimony of — -
Edward Huebsch 371
Bart Lytton 381
Joseph Springer 398
Silvia Richards 413
Index -. 433
m
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
« * 4: * * * *
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) Tlie Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to malve from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
cliaracter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in tlie United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda tliat is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of. the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (iii) all other questions in relation .thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committtee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 83D CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 3, VX)S
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con-
gress, the following standing committees :
• ***•*•
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
• •***••
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American Activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive anad un-American proi>-
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary, Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.
VI
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES AREA— Part 1
MONDAY, MARCH 23, 1953
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles, Calif.
PUBLIC HEARING
The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to call,
at 10 a. m., in room 518, Federal Building, Hon. Harold H. Veld©
(chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman), Donald L. Jackson (appearance noted in transcript).
Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, Morgan M, Moulder, Clyde Doyle,
and James B. Frazier, Jr.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Louis J.
Russell, chief investigator; Thomas W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk;
Raphael I. Nixon, director of research; and William A. Wlieeler,
investigator.
Mr. Velde. Will the committee please come to order ?
Miss Reporter, let the record show that there are present the follow-
ing members of the Committee on Un-American Activities of the
House of Representatives : Mr. Clardy, of Michigan ; Mr. Scherer, of
Ohio ; Mr. Moulder, of Missouri ; Mr. Doyle, of California ; Mr. Fra-
zier, of Tennessee ; and the chairman, Mr. Velde, which constitutes a
quorum of the full committee for the purposes of this hearing.
I am advised that Representative Francis E. Walter, of Pennsyl-
vania, will arrive during the course of the day. And I am advised,
too, that Mr. [Donald L.] Jackson was detained on the way down
here.
Before the hearings resume, I would like to make a statement for
the benefit of the witnesses who have been subpenaed, the television
companies which are participating in the televising of this hearing,
and the public.
After receiving a request to permit the televising of this hearing
as a public service, the following resolution was adopted by the com-
mittee on March 4, 1953 :
Be it resolved. That in the event the chairman of the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities or the chairman of any subcommittee thereof, duly appointed by
the chairman, shall admit to the hearing room television facilities as a public
information medium under the provisions of a resolution adopted by the com-
mittee on the 22d day of January 1953, the hearing may be televised under the
following conditions :
(1) That television facilities in the hearing room be restricted to two cameras
and the minimum lighting facilities practicable, all television production to be
available on a pooled basis to other established television companies desiring
participation ;
267
268 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
(2) Telecasts of committee hearinjjs shall be on the basis of a public service
only and this, fact shall l)e publicly announces! on television at the beginning
and close of each telecast. No commercial announcements will be made from
the hearing room and no actual or intimated sponsorship of the hearings will be
permitted in any instance; and
(3) Upon the request of a witness that no telecast be made of him diuring
the course of this testimony the chairman shall direct the television cameras to
refrain from photographing him during the taking of his testimony.
I also desire to call to the attention of the audience which is present
that you are here as a courtesy of this committee and that the com-
mittee will not tolerate any demonstration either by way of approval
or disapproval of anything which may occur during this hearing.
Smoking will not be allowed. There will be no standing in the
aisles or along the walls. The area in the corridors immediately adja-
cent to the hearing room shall be considered a part of this hearing
room while the committee is in session. Anyone who violates these
instructions shall be removed from the hearing room by the United
States marshal or his deputies who, in addition to his responsibility as
a Federal officer, is appointed sergeant at arms for the purpose of pre-
serving order during this hearing.
Mr. Tavenner, are you ready to proceed ?
Mr. Tan'enner. Yes, sir. I would like to call as the first witness
Mr. Danny Dare.
Mr. Velde. Will you stand and be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Dare. I do.
TESTIMONY OF DANNY DARE, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
MARTIN GANG
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Dare. Danny Dare.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta^t-nner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record?
I do not see counsel present.
Mr. Gang. Martin Gang is my name.
Mr. Tavenner. Spell your name, please, Mr. Dare.
Mr. Dare. D-a-r-e.
Mr. Ta\t5nner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Dare. New York City, March 1905.
Mr. Taat^nner. Where do you now reside ?
Mv. Dare. Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr. Taa^nner. Will you tell the committee briefly, please, what
your educational background has been ?
JNIr. Dare. Public school, eighth grade; high school, approximately
6 months.
IVFr. Tavtsnner. What has been the record of j'our employment?
Mr. Dare. Sporadic.
Mr. Tavenner. Since 1935.
Mr. Dare. Since 1935, staging shows for picture theaters, occa-
sional studio jobs as a dance director, unemployed for a period of
approximately 2 years from 1937 to 1939, and following that I was
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA 269
employed at a picture studio for approximately 6 years, and then un-
employed from the middle of 1948 to early 1950, and from then on
in television.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Dare, during the course of the hearings con-
ducted by this committee in Los Angeles in September of 1951, a per-
son by tlie name of Martin Berkeley testified, and I want to read you
a portion of his testimony which related to you.
This question was asked him :
Is there an organization in Hollywood known as the Hollywood Theater
Alliance.
Mr. Berkeley. There was such an organization ; yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you come in contact with the work of that organization?
Mr. Berkeley. Yes. I worked. I attended a few meetings of the faction
of that organization around 19.38 or 1939.
Mr, Tavenner. Did you know the circumstances under which it was organized?
Mr. Berkeley. The Hollywood Theater Alliance was organized directly by the
Communist Party for the purpose of presenting so-called progressive or left-wing
anti-Fascist propaganda. I believe their first production, which was the one I
couldn't think of before in relation to Mr. Bassman was Meet the People, which
was very successful, both here and in New York. I attended a meeting of the
faction which helped organize the Hollywood Theater Alliance, although I had
no active part in the Theater Alliance at all. As a matter of fact, I attended a
meeting of this organization and subsequently when there was talk of doing my
Lincoln play, by that time there was no money left and the Lincoln play was
never done.
The leading spirits in the faction were
Question. And again, by "faction" you are referring to members of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Berkeley. Dues-paying members of the Communist Party. Mostly, actu-
ally, the members of this faction were the men who helped organize the show
and put it on — writer, director, and so on. Edward Eliscu, a writer, was a
member of this group and very active in the show itself. Incidentally, it was
a very amusing show. Robert Rossen.
Question. Is he the same Robert Rossen who appeared before the Committee
on Un-American Activities, as far as you know?
Mr. Berkeley. Yes, sir. Edward Chodorov. Incidentally, he was the first
producer I worked for in town, and the man I went with was Guy Endore. To
go back way early this morning, he is a well-known playwright and producer,
and Henry Blankfort, a writer.
Question. Is he the same individual who appeared before this committee
yesterday?
Mr. Berkeley. He is, sir. I saw his picture in the paper and there is no doubt
in my mind. Danny Dare, producer and director, who has worked for several
of the major studios in both capacities, and I believe is now working on
television.
And then the witness proceeds to name other persons who were
connected with that enterprise.
(Continuing to read :)
QxTESTioN. Do you know whether she is the same Bess Taffel who occupied
the chair yesterday that you are now occupying?
Answer. Yes. she is the same girl. George Sklar, an excellent writer ; Irving J.
White ; and Francis Faragoh, the writer.
Question. Did you attend a meeting in the home of Offner? I understood you
to say that you attended a meeting but you did not state where it was.
Mr. Berkeley. I attended the first meeting of this group at the home of
Mortimer Offner, who was then a screen writer, and today I believe is a tele-
vision writer or producer or director, I don't know which.
Now, soon after that testimony was taken by the committee, the
committee received a telegram which I would like to hand you and
ask you whether or not you can identify it as a telegram which you
sent to the committee.
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
270 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer it in evidence and ask that it be
marked as "Dare Exhibit 1."
Mr. Velde. It will be received.
(The document referred to was received in evidence and marked
"Dare Exhibit No. 1.")
Mr. Tavenner. This telegram reads as follows :
New York, September 24, 1951.
Chairman, House Un-American Activities Committee:
Feel I have been unjustly accused. Cannot understand vague charges In
Berkeley testimony. Am willing to appear at once. Can you arrange conference
tomorrow with committee counsel for this purpose. Please reply collect.
Did you then receive a telegram from this committee?
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I will ask you to look at this copy of a telegram and
state whether or not that is a copy of the telegram you received.
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer it in evidence and ask that it be
marked "Dare Exhibit 2."
Mr. Velde. It will be received.
(The document referred to was received in evidence and marked
"Dare Exhibit No. 2.")
Mr. Tavenner. This telegram reads as follows :
Danny Dare,
New York City:
Committee expect to adjourn tomorrow.
It bears date of September 24, 1951.
Will make arrangements for your appearance in Washington as soon as
practicable after return of subcommittee.
Francis Walter,
Acting Chairman, Un-American Activities Committee.
Now, in response to that exchange of telegrams, did you appear
before a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities in
Washington on September 27, 1951?
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you appeared there before some of the
committee members had been able to return to Washington from the
hearing, as well as members of the staff who were working here.
Mr. Dare. That is true.
Mr. Tavenner. At Los Angeles.
Mr. Dare. That is true.
Mr. Tavenner. The records of the committee show that you did
appear on September 27 before a subcommittee composed of Rep-
resentatives Francis E. Walter, James B. Frazier, Jr., and Bernard W.
Kearney. In the course of that hearing, Mr. Walter, the chairman
of the subcommittee, made this statement :
I understand you desire to make a statement concerning testimony given
within the last few days in California before the subcommittee that was taking
testimony out there.
Do you recall that question having been asked or statement made?
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your reply ?
Mr. Dare. Would you repeat the question, please? I'm sorry.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 271
Mr. Tavennek. Mr. Walter, according to the transcript of the
testimony, made this statement :
I understand you desire to make a statement concerning testimony given
within the last few days in California before the subcommittee that was taking
testimony out there.
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Then I will read from the transcript of your reply
and ask you whether or not it is correct as far as you can remember.
Mr. Dare. I can only say what I read in the newspaper, that he listed a large
number of names, of which mine was one, and I don't know the exact statement
he made, but the implication was he named me as a Communist.
Mr. Walter. As I recall the testimony, you are correct. He did list a great
number of names of people who were in the Communist Party with him, and he
was very specific that these were all people that he knew and people who had
attended Communist Party meetings with him.
(At 10:20 a. m., Kepresentative Donald L. Jackson entered the
hearing room.)
Mr. Tavenner (continuing to read) :
Mr. Dare. That is not true.
Did you make that reply?
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. At another place in the transcript of the testimony
appears this :
Mr. Walter. Are you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dare. No, sir.
Mr. Walter. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Dare. No, sir.
Do you recall those questions and replies?
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. At another place in the transcript Mr. Walter asked
this question :
The question was did anybody ever ask you to join the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dare. No.
Do you recall that exchange of question and answer ?
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. After that testimony the committee continued in its
investigation regarding the statement and testimony made by Mr.
Martin Berkeley regarding you, and as a result of its investigation,
the testimony relating to this subject was referred to the Department
of Justice for its consideration in determining whether or not prosecu-
tive action was justified.
Subsequently, Mr. Walter received a letter from you in which
appears this language :
I did a very stupid thing in asking you to take me to Washington and then
testifying falsely before the committee.
This was a copy of a letter addressed to another person which you
sent Mr. Walter. Is that correct, according to your recollection ?
Mr. Dare. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. You also stated in the course of this letter :
I will tell the committee evei-ything I know and try to make amends.
Was that contained in your letter ?
272 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Dare. That is true.
Mr. Tavenneu. To Mr. Walter?
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Ta\t2Nner. I would like to ask you whether or not any promise
or representation of any kind was made by this committee or anybody
in its behalf to you to induce you to come before this committee and
make any statement whatever further than that which you had
already made.
Mr. "Dare. None whatsoever.
Mr. Tavenner. Is your appearance here the result of your own
initiative and your own decision in the matter?
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Now. do you realize that the answer to any question
that I mifjht ask you might be used in a subsequent proceeding?
Mr. Dare. Yes."^
Mr. Ta-vtinner. And in spite of these things, you desire to appear
before this committee and state to it all that is within your knowledge
and truthfully answer all questions that are propounded to you?
Mr. Dare. That is true, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, as shown from the transcript of the record,
you denied before this committee that you had ever been a member
of the Communist Party. Now, what do j^ou desire to say about
that?
Mr. Dare. Well, I was in New York at that time with my family,
employed, and the way the news was broken to me was quite a shock.
T was called in by my employer and shown a newspaper article men-
tioning my name, as the testimony showed.
Well, I became panicky, and realizing that if I said, "Yes, this is
true," I would immediately lose my job, which I particularly did not
want to do at the time, not only from my financial standpoint but
I was in the midst of doing an anti-Communist show called The Cru-
sade for Freedom, which was a nationwide telecast, and I became
emotionally panicky and I thought I could brazen it through, because
actually I had been so little advised that I just did the wrong thing,
did the stupid thing, through fear and panic.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat were the facts regarding your alleged Com-
munist Party membership? Were you at any time a member of the
Communist Pa rty ?
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, the circum-
stances under w^hich you became a member, both ns to time and place
and method of recruitment into the Communist Partv?
Mr. Dare. If you will bear with me, I will try. Up until 1938 I
had been in show business all my life and never stayed in one place
long enough to have a home, and as a result had never voted or never
been interested in politics. That year I went to a show and during
intermission I overheard a conversation that disturbed me very much
between two men who were talking about what a good job Hitler was
doing in Germany and that that was the right thing to do to the mi-
norities over there; of course, he might be going a little too far in
exterminating them, but he should confiscate their possessions and
put them in concentration camps.
COAIJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 273
I turned around and saw two very normal looking, intelligent peo-
ple who said it casually, and I was frightened. I intended to be mar-
ried shortly and raise a family, and it preyed on my mind. I belonged
to an athletic club where I spent my time playing handball, and so
forth. I discussed it with some of the members there, and a couple
of them said, "Well, you don't know what is going on in the world,
and you should try to learn." They started to tell me things about
what was going on in Germany, and how it might happen here un-
less people took an active part in fighting it, and I was asked to go to —
they said it was a local election coming up, and if I was interested,
would I go to see some of the candidates and hear what they said, and
see what they were doing to fight, and if I was interested, to vote for
them.
I went to a couple of meetings, and before I knew it I was a member,
of the Anti-Nazi League and the Hollywood Democratic Committee,
and so I became interested. Then as a result of that, I imagine —
incidentally, I was not active in those organizations. My partici-
pation was signing a slip and paying dues, and that was it. I didn't
attend any meetings. I must have gotten on all the sucker lists, be-
cause I started to get literature through the mail, and one day a cir-
cular came asking me if I was interested in a live theater in Holly-
wood. Of course, I was. This was my profession, and I hadn't
been employed for a couple of years. It said, "If you are interested,
come to a meeting at" such and such a place. I went. I don't remem-
ber where it was. There were at least 50 or 60 people there, and I am
quite sure that this was not the first meeting of the Hollywood Theater
Alliance, which it later turned out to be, because there were commit-
tees functioning, and I know that I was not there at the inception of
this organization.
This was supposed to be a nonprofit community venture to give em-
ployment and opportunity to young actors, directors, and so forth. It
was decided by the people talking that the venture of this theater
should be a musical revue, because it would involve more people. Of
course, I didn't know what that meant at tliat time, but I do now.
Volunteers were called for to assist in producing this show, and, of
course, I raised my hand ; this was my line of work, and I found myself
on a committee with the job of producing this first show.
I had never known any of these people before, and the other people
on the committee were Morley, Offner, Henry Meyers, and Jay Gor-
ney; and we proceeded to start to work on gathering material for
this show. At this meeting a gentleman by the name of Irving White
came up and introduced himself to me, and said he had been a stage
manager on Broadway, and said he knew me by reputation, and said
he thought I could make a good contribution to this show.
Well, we started to gather material, and some time during the next
2 or 3 months Mr. Edward Eliscu was added to this committee. There
were arguments about what materials should go into the show and
/What materials shouldn't go into the show, and one day Mr. Irving
White, who had held some sort of position with the Hollywood Theater
Alliance, as it now was called, came to me and said, "You just don't
understand what the show should be about. You need a political
education. If you are interested in figliting Mr. Hitler, you should
join with the people who are doing tliis thing," and the sum and
274 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
substaTlre of it was tliat he said, "And the Cortimimist Party are the
people that are actually doin^ this."
Well, I asked him the two $64 questions, "What is this I hear about
the Communist Party being dedicated to the overthrow of the Gov-
ernment of the United States by force and violence?"
He assured me that this w^as not true and he could show it to me in
the constitution of the Communist Party of the United States at that
time.
I also asked him, "What about this talk I hear about taking orders
from Moscow?"
He said that was positively not true, that the party is independent
and acted on its own.
Well, I thought it over and he kept talking to me and eventually I
agreed to do this.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you stated that Mr. Irving White stated to
you that you needed some political education.
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Ta^^enner. Wliat was the nature of his statement to you in
full and what was the occasion for his making such a statement to you ?
Mr. Dare. Incidentally, this was around August 1938, to set the
date for you. Well, I had never been interested in politics and my
motive for doing anything about joining any organization was to try
to prevent what happened in Germany from happening here, and
while I might have been intense and eager to do something, I didn't
maybe know the reasons why I was doing things, and they said, "You
don't know what the forces are that are actually behind the so-called
Fascist movement in America, and in order to understand that you
must get an education, and in order to see that the right material went
in the show, you should be able to analyze material and judge its
value."
Mr. Tavenner. Well then there was a definite connection between
tliat conversation and the purpose of the show ?
Mr. Dare. I believe so ; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And it was in that connection that you were advised
to go into the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dare. That's right, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned to any special group in the
Communist Party?
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us about that ?
Mr. Dare. Well, the first gathering I went to with Mr. White
was — there were about 30 people present, to the best of my knowl-
edge, at that meeting. Again I didn't know any of them. I do remem-
ber two people who addressed us. One was John Howard Lawson
and the other was a fellow by the name of Cyril. I didn't know his
last name and never have seen him since.
Mr. Lawson spoke about what was happening here, and the sum
and substance of it was, "You can't be an ostrich and stick your head
in the sand and say it can't happen here because it happened in
Germany."
This fellow by the name of Cyril spoke something about Marxism,
which didn't interest me and I didn't understand it, and that is all I
remember about that meeting, except that I was told that in the future
that it would be broken up into smaller groups of six.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA 275
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become a member of one of the smaller
groups of six?
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did that group meet ?
Mr. Dare. The first meeting that I remember was at the home of
Frank Tuttle, although he was not present.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you receive information as to where and
when the meeting would be held ?
Mr. Dare. Mr. White told me.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were present at that meeting ?
Mr. Dare. A woman by the name of Jessie Burns, Tanya Tuttle,
a fellow by the name of Kay Spencer, and a woman by the name of
Pauline Lauber, and also Mr. Herbert Biberman.
Mr. Tavenner. How frequently did that group meet ?
Mr. Dare. I don't remember whether it was supposed to be once a
week or once every 2 weeks ; I really don't remember.
JNIr. Tavenner. Over how long a period of time did you meet with
this group?
Mr. Dare. To the best of my recollection, perhaps 5 times maximum,
although I can only actually remember 2. But I am sure I went to
a couple more.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. Could you further identify the persons you have
named by their occupation or the work they do ?
Mr. Dare. I will think, sir. Irving White, I believe was trying
to be a writer, although I don't know that, where he was, actually
was, ever employed. He had some sort of a small-paying job with the
Hollywood Theater Alliance for a while, I think, I am pretty sure.
Ray Spencer, I think, was also supposed to be a writer, although I
don't remember that he ever worked in a studio or anywhere that he
ever worked, or what he wrote.
Jessie Burns, I understood, was a reader at a motion picture studio.
Pauline Lauber, I believe, was a secretary, but I am not positive.
Tanya Tuttle was the wife of Frank Tuttle and was interested in
the ballet theater or dancing, but I don't believe did it as a profession.
Mr. Moulder. Is that as much information as you have to identify
them by?
Mr. Dare. So far as their vocation is concerned ; yes.
Mr. Moulder. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell the committee how this particular
group functioned, as to what their purpose was, what its chief interest
was?
Mr. Dare. By this particular group you mean the Hollywood Thea-
ter Alliance?
Mr. Tavenner. I meant this particular group of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Dare. I am sorry. I was lost for a moment. Mental sug-
gestion. Well, I remember that when I got there they were there
already. A lot of lighter literature was out, and I think we read one of
them about fascism in America and what was happening in Germany
on that particular subject, and it was discussed. This occupied most
of the meeting, so far as I remember.
276 COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Oh, I remember that we were told that there would be a rotating
chairman each time so that each one would gain the experience of con-
ducting a meeting.
Then there was a discussion of another pamphlet on Marx, which
I didn't understand. That is about all I remember about the
meeting.
I think — yes; I think the dues were explained to us, that if you
were working you were supposed to pay 5 percent of your salary.
If you weren't working, which I wasn't, it was either 10 cents or 50
cents a month ; I forget which.
Mr. Tavenner. During the time that you attended those meetings,
did functionaries of the Communist Party on higher levels appear
before your meeting?
Mr. Dare. I couldn't swear to that, but I got the impression that
Mr. Biberman might have been. But the others didn't seem to be.
Mr. Tavenner. What interest did this particular group of the Com-
munist Party, to which you were assigned, have in the alliance group
that you first referred to ?
Mr. Dare. At that time I don't know whether it had any distinct
relationsliip with the Hollywood Theater Alliance, although the Hol-
lywood Theater Alliance show was discussed in there. Perhaps after
I left there was some purpose in this particular unit being formed, and
I am sure there must have been some motive in having these particular
people in this group, but I don't believe I ever found out exactly why.
Incidentally, to give you another date, at the time Mr. White so-
licited my membership in the party was around March of 1939.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Let us go back and consider further the work that
was being done by the Theater Alliance in the production of the play.
I think you volunteered for a part in the production of that play?
Mr. Dare. Yes ; to direct it.
Mr. Tavenner. To direct it ?
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the play?
Mr. Dare. It became — there was no name at that time. It became
known as Meet the People.
Mr. Tavenner. Meet the People?
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it a successful production?
Mr. Dare. Yes ; quite.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Did it make money?
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did the play run in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Dare. Over a year. I would say approximately a year and 3
months; somewhere around there.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether the production went on to
New York?
Mr. Dare. Yes, a second company was formed while this company
was playing here, and the second company went on the road and then
eventually opened in New York.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you have stated that Mr. White advised you
during the progress of the work on this play, that you needed political
education and indicated that you did not understand the political
implications from this play.
COIMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 277
Have you made a study of that production tcr deteniiine what the
implications were from it ?
]Vfr. Dare. I certainly have, since my invitation by the committee.
I have done some research, and what I thought was perfectly in-
nocuous and amusing in those days, as I read it now, I can see the
connection and what it actually was meant to accomplish.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Just in a general way, what would joii say that it
was meant to accomplish, by the production of this play?
Mr. Dare. Well, to propagandize and expound the theories that at
that time was the Communist Party line.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask a question?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. I would like to ask a question for my information.
Do I recall the first name of Mr. Wliite, or who he is
Mr. Dare. Irvine.
'in'
Mr. Ta%'enxer. Irving White, How do you spell Irving ?
Mr. Dare. I-r-v-i-n-g.
Mr. Ta\^enner. Well, do you recall any particular features about
this play that would demonstrate what you have just had to say,
namely, that the play was intended to propagate the Communist
Party line as it existed at that time?
Mr. Dare. Yes
Mr. Velde. May I ask at what time again ?
Mr. Jackson. And what was the Communist Party line at that
time?
Mr. Dare. I think it might be best explained — I am not qualified
to per se give a long explanation of the Communist Party line. 1
can only cite the relation of the material that went in the show
Mr. Jackson. Were the Communists at that time with Hitler or
against liim ?
Mr. Dare. It depends on the day you are asking about.
Mr. Jackson. You mean during the course of this the line changed ?
Mr. Dare. Yes. Maybe not so much as being against Hitler— I
think they were always against him — but as regards Mr. Roosevelt,
I think their sjmipathies changed.
Mr. Tav^nner. Well, what is the first thing that occurred which
would indicate political significance ?
Mr. Dare. Of course, this show had quite a long rehearsal period
due to the lack of success in raising money and resistance to certain
opinions contrary to the opinions in Hollywood, what was not a
Communist opinion at that time, and there were certain groups that
refused to rent space to the groups respecting their motives.
There was trouble getting a police and fire permit for a certain
building, because pressure was put on the fire department not to issue
the permit. As a result, the show was in rehearsal and preparation
for quite a long time ; I would say 6 months.
^Viien the show first started to be prepared there was a song written
called, Mr. Eoosevelt, Won't You Please Eun Again?, which was a
plea to Mr. Roosevelt for a third term, and to forget all the opposition
to a third term.
By the time the show opened, which by that time the Nazi-Soviet
pact had occurred, this never wound up in the show, and, as a matter
31747— 53— pt. 1 2
278 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
of fact, there was some fairly anti-Koosevelt policies sketches in the
show.
Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question, ^Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jacksox. "Meet the People" was not a play, was it? It was
a series of specialty acts?
Mr. Dare. It was a musical revue.
Mr. Jackson. A musical revue rather than a play.
Mr. Dare. Yes, consisting of songs, skits with no story line, but
what was called a thread of a story.
During this period, of course, when this number did not get into
the show, this was around May or June of 1939, and by that time, by
the time the show opened after Roosevelt had supported Finland, as a
result of Russia's attack on Finland, the song was eliminated from the
j)otential list of material.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask a question ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. How long after Roosevelt supported Finland did this
song disappear from the script, was it a matter of days or weeks or
months?
Mr. Dare. I couldn't say. It was on a potential list of material for
the show and then it just never got into the show. I couldn't be specific
about the exact date when somebody said, "This does not go into the
show."
Mr. Doyle. Your conclusion is it was on account of the United
States supporting Finland's position ?
Mr. Dare. Plus Mr. Roosevelt giving aid to the Allies who were
fighting Hitler.
Mr. Clardy. May I ask a question ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. How was that handled. Witness ? In other words, was
there some discussion amongst the entire group, or did someone in
particular merely hand down the order that, "This does not go in the
play"?
Mr. Dare. This I don't know, because I had been in and out of the
Communist Party, and while I continued to direct the show there was
a committee that selected the material for the show, of which I was
one. Who, what, why decided this, I couldn't say. I do know it never
got into the show, but I actually couldn't say how.
Mr. Clardy. Based on the knowledge that you have acquired since
that event, would you say that the order, however it came, was from a
gi'oup of Communists?
Mr. Dare. I am pretty sure of that.
Mr. Clardy. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Dare, you mentioned the fact that the President
gave aid to the Allies during a certain period.
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there any change made in the script that re-
flected the Communist Party line on that question, that is, the ques-
tion of aid by this country to the allies ?
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir, I have before me two of the scripts from the
show, one dated February 20, 1940, and the other dated January 20,
1941.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 279
In the version of 1940 there was a sketch which was a prelude to a
song and a dance, which had the United States Senate as the setting.
The only implication in that was that the scene was based on two
fairly successful pictures at that time which were "Mr. Deeds Goes To
Washington" and "Mr. Smith Goes To Town," which was the only
reason for the setting being in the Senate.
In the first script it had no political implication at all, and was
merely a setting for a song and a dance. By January of 1940 the
same sketch had been changed to attack, ridicule Mr. Roosevelt and
ridicule his domestic policies, satirized his giving destroyers to Eng-
land and satirized the building of the factories for defense, satirized
his — or, accusing him of stretching the Monroe Doctrine and ridiculed
the idea any Senator would ask for a small amount for relief.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Dare, this script was dated January 20, 1941, was
it not ?
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Velde. I think you said 1940. This is just to get the record
straight.
Mr. Dare. I am sorry. The second script was 1941. This was
the same sketch, only rewritten at that time. At what point it was
rewritten I can't say, but by the time January 1, 1941, arrived, this
was the state it was in.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, would you give the committee a little clearer
idea of just the way in which that satirization took place, by reading
pertinent parts of the script?
Mr. Dare. The Senate is in session. Senior Senators, secretaries
and one junior Senator are all seated.
Two gavel knocks.
Voice off stage says, "The President of the United States of
America."
A comedian came out with a fishing rod and old fishing hat, such as
Roosevelt used to wear.
A hand comes out from the wings and takes the fishing rod away
from him.
He turned and said, "Thank you, Wendell."
This was during the Willkie-Roosevelt campaign.
He said, "I have served you faithfully for 8 years."
The Senators applaud.
"And I hope to serve you for 4 more."
Senators almost applaud, but show resentment instead.
"My message today is this : We have troubles in our country — now.
We have unequal distribution of wealth — now. We have strife and
havoc on all sides — now. And I plan to do something about it —
later." Much applause. Two gavel knocks.
Junior and senior Senators: Mr. President."
A voice says, "The Chair recognizes the senior Senator."
Senior Senator: "I move we appropriate $1 billion for monkey
glands for overage destroyers."
All but junior Senator applaud.
Junior and senior Senators : "Mr. President."
"The Chair recognizes the senior Senator."
Senior Senator: "I move we appropriate $5 billion to build fac-
tories for underprivileged millionaires."
All but junior Senator applaud.
280 COMMLTNTIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Junior and senior Senators: "Mr. President."
"The Chair recognizes the senior Senator."
Senior Senator: "I move we appropriate $12 billion for rubber
bands to stretch the Monroe Doctrine."
All but junior Senator applaud.
Junior Senator (angrily) : "Mr. President."
Over the PAV (very tired) : "Oh, all right. The Chair recognizes
the junior Senator."
Junior Senator: "Thank you, Mr. President. I move we appro-
priate $1 for relief."
Everybody gasps in horror.
Senior Senator reaches for gun. Everybody jumps up. There is
a struggle for the gun, which developed into a jitterbug dance.
Mr. Velde. What was the date of that script, Mr. Dare '(
Mr. Dare. January 20, 1941.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel, would this be a convenient breaking-off
point for a recess?
Mr. TxWENXER. Yes.
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in recess until 5 minutes after 11.
(Short recess was taken.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order. Proceed. Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Dare, you referred earlier in your testimony
to the attack made by the Soviet Union on Finland.
Mr. Dare, Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there anything in this sketch or in any of the
sketches or any part of this play which carried the Communist Party
line with regard to Finland?
Mr. Dare. I think so. If I may quote from the script. There was
a sketch in the show that
Mr. Tavenner. The show you are referring to is "Meet the People" ?
Mr. Dare. That is right, sir. There was a sketch in the show which
concerned two tramps out of work, sitting on a bench discussing
conditions. A policeman comes in, and, incidentally, during this
sketch there were jibes at ISIr. Roosevelt and the domestic policies at
the time. At the finish of the sketch a policeman comes in and tells
the two men to get moving.
As he says this, a woman comes in with a receptacle asking for
contributions. She says, "Officerj would you care to make a con-
tribution?"
The cop says, "What is it for ? "
The woman says, "Mr. Roosevelt's fund for needy Finns."
The cop very warmly says, "Why, sure, Lady. Poor things." And
he drops a quarter in the can.
"Thank you," says the woman, and she exits.
The cop said to the men, "I thought I told you two bums to clear
out."
The two men start off and, as they walk, the first man says, "Hey,
are you a Finn?"
The second man says. "No. Are you ?"
The first man saysj "No."
The second man says, "Too bad."
The implication, of course, being there was money for Finland but
for nobody at home that needed any money.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 281
Mr. Ta\'enner. Do yon recall any attack upon domestic policies
which would carry out the Communist Party line ?
Mr. Dare. As I studied it recently, I think so. At that time I quite
didn't realize the implication.
This is a sketch called With Mv. Hollywood in Darkest Washing-
ton, which opens with the depicting of a supposed Republican Party.
This was during the time the Republicans were going to pick a can-
didate to run against Mr. Roosevelt. I guess it would be in 1940.
They are trying to decide what kind of a candidate they should select.
Do you want me to tell you about it or
Mr. Tavenner. I think if you just describe it generally it will be
all right.
Mr. Dare. They say, "We have got to have a man who will appeal
to the people." And he says, "There is" — they have a caiididate, but
he looks awful. He is a real scarecrow. They said, "We have got
to do something to liven this man up."
He says, "The only man I know to do it is Mr. Hollywood, the big
producer."
He says, "What will he do with it ? "
He says, "Look what they did for the British Empire, Lloyd's of
London, Gunga Din, Henry the Eighth."
They call Mr. Hollywood in to tell them how to make their candidate
to appeal to the voters.
He brings his own makeup man with him and they go to work on
him.
He says, "The first thing we have to do is to delve into the complete
characterization of the part. A man's looks always reflect his
thoughts. Wliere is the script?"
One says, "Script? Wliat script?"
He says, "As a president this man will stand for something. What's
his platform going to be? What does he mean?" He says, "What
are we going to promise the Republican voters?"
"Oh, that is different. The first thing we are going to promise "
"Wait a minute. Get ready, please."
"Now", give it to me with feeling — emotion — dialog. It is the day
before election. He is presenting his platform to the people — the best
people. His words will thunder, 'Lower taxes for the millionaires,
higher taxes for the workingman.'
"Wonderful — make him generous — bighearted — more, more.
"His first cry will be, 'We must balance the budget.' Caution — give
him caution. Cut down the relief. Thrift. More money for the
Navy. Strength, let's have strength. Cut down on public health.
"More freedom for Wall Street. Consideration — regard. Less
money for the farmer. Economy. More money for the Army.
iVmend the Wagner bill. Amend the Bill of Rights. Scrap the WPA.
Strengthen the FBI. Give him everything. More money for the Air
Force. Smash the Labor Trusts. More money for the rich. Throw
out the New Deal. Bring back the Old Deal."
And at that point he says, "Fine, I think we have got him."
In the meantime the makeup man has been putting a mask on this
character, with his back to the audience, and when they turn him
around it is a mask of Mr. Roosevelt. The implication being no matter
what candidate the Republican or Democratic Party picked it would
be the same tiling.
282 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Were there any incidents that occurred during the
production of this play "Meet the People" which indicated to you any
political significance on the part of the individuals who were responsi-
ble for the production of the play?
Mr. Dare. Not specifically, that I can recall. I didn't realize it at
the time, but it is perfectly obvious to me now that someone or some
group were dictating, how I don't know, what should go into this
show.
Mr. Tavenner. Were there any suggestions made by you at any time
which were either approved or refused and which might indicate to the
committee what the attitude was of those who were responsible for the
production of this play?
Mr. Dare. I am sure that I didn't quite agree with everything that
was said all the time. And I remember in one specific instance there
was a number which concerned two couples dressed in tails and evening
clothes. One was supposed to be a gigolo and the number in itself
was quite innocuous.
It wound up with the gigolo trying to find out which of the three
had the most money, his partner or the other woman, and he eventu-
ally found out it was the other man, so he asked him to dance with him.
This was followed by an encore, which was inserted at some point as
these people left the stage, of Hitler and Stalin coming in dancing
together.
This was sometime during the Soviet-Nazi pact. Mr. Hitler had
his back to the audience and we couldn't see his hand, which was
behind Mr. Stalin's back, until they reached the center of the stage,
at which point, as Mr. Hitler whirled Mr. Stalin around, we saw a
knife was pointed at Mr. Stalin's back by Mr. Hitler.
My argument at the time was, "How can you do that? You have
to put a knife in both their hands if you want to be honest." This
caused a big argument. I was told that, of course, Mr. Stalin was
acting in good faith, whereas Mr. Hitler was a dangerous man and
couldn't be trusted : he had a knife at Mr. Stalin's back.
This wasn't in the show for a very long time. I forget at what
point it went in and when it went out. I know it was in the show
and I know this discussion and argument took place.
Mr. Velde. Well, do you remember, Mr. Dare, was it before or after
the pact was broken, before Germany marched on Russia ?
Mr. Dare. Wliat year was that?
Mr. Velde. 1941.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. Do you recall with whom you had this conversation
concerning the characters, when you suggested to put a knife in each
of their hands, whom you were talking to, discussing that problem
with at the time?
Mr. Dare. People connected with the Hollywood Theatre Alliance.
Mr. IMouLDER. You can't remember who they were ?
Mr. Dare. I am sure that the people who worked on the committee
joined in the discussion, but I am also sure there were other people
connected with the Hollywood Theater Alliance, and I couldn't swear
as to who exactly took what side or who agreed, with me. I know it
would have been discussed within the Hollywood Theatre Alliance.
Mr. D0T1.E. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question now ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 283
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr, Doyle. Did anyone else who was on the committee or in the
group agree with you ?
Mr. Dare. I think so.
Mr. Doyle. About how many out of the group agreed with you,
that you ought to have a knife in both their hands ?
Mr, Dare. I don't know, but not many.
Mr. Doyle. Well, 2, 3, or 4 out of the 12 or 15 ?
Mr. Dare. Probably. Maybe less than that, maybe 2 or 3. I don't
know, but the majority, of course, were for the other version.
Mr. Velde, That would definitely be before the peace pact was
broken ?
Mr. Dare. I imagine so.
Mr. Clardy. May I ask a question ?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Clardy, Mr, Dare, it is obvious to me, from your testimony,
that you claim to have joined the Communist Party when you did
because you felt at that time that the Communist Party was opposed
to anti-Semitism, is that right?
Mr, Dare. That is true, definitely.
Mr. Clardy. That was your reason?
Mr. Dare. That is true.
Mr. Clardy. You know, as a matter of fact, today that the Com-
munist Party is as anti-Semitic as the Nazi Party was under Hitler ?
Mr. Dare. I certainly do. As a matter of fact, I can't understand
anyone who at that time would have joined forces with the Communist
Party or actually joined the party to fight anti-Semitism, why they
couldn't today, with the same zeal and energy, fight the Communist
Party, because, in essence, it is much worse today, because it tries to
hide the fact it is anti-Semitic.
Mr. Clardy. You mean it is much worse than the Nazi Party was ?
Mr. Dare. I would think so, because the Nazis and the Fascists
made no bones about where they stood. This is much more insidious,
by protesting, "No ; we don't do that," when all the reports and every-
thing are quite the opposite.
Mr. Clardy. Let me say I thoroughly agree with your conclusions
in that respect.
Mr. Dare. In relation to that, may I say this: In order to fight
this, if the organizations that are fighting communism could reach
out and grab persons like myself, I am sure there are millions of them
with the same intensity, and as the Communists grabbed me when I
said, "I want to fight Hitler," that would be a great thing for the
country.
The minute I opened my mouth and said, "This is wrong, you ought
to do something about it," they were ready to say, "Here is how you do
it. Let's join this organization." If the same thing could be done
for the other side, I would like to take an active part in it and I am
sure there are thousands of others that would. There don't seem to
be the organizations on the level of myself to say, "Come on, here is
what you can do."
Mr. Clardy. Don't you think this committee is doing something
about it?
284 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
IMr. Dare. That isn't it. I am talking about orofanizations like the
Anti-Nazi League, like the Hollywood Democratic League and Holly-
wood Theater Alliance. There' are thousands who would join them.
If one didn't suit the specific thing that they were fighting against,
there Avas another that suited their pur])ose.
Mr. Clardy. Isn't that what the American Legion and the veterans'
organizations are doing, sparking a pretty good move in that
direction?
Mr. Dare. That is fine. I can't join the American Legion. But
I am talking about organizations that
Mr. Clardy. You want an organization that is as broad in its mem-
bership as the electorate of the Nation.
Mr. Dare. That is true. When I was asked if I wanted to produce
the Anti-Communist Crusade for Freedom in New York, I jumped
at the chance. That was something I could use my talents for, ]ust
as the Communists used my talents for themselves.
Mr. Clardy. Don't you think this committee wdll in some measure
encourage the thing you are talking about and thus help to reach
the ends you are suggesting?
Mr. Dare. That is true. This is not a criticism of the committee.
Mr. Clardy. I understand.
Mr. Dare. This is for organizations for people, just as the Com-
munist Party was supposed to be, and they can say, "Let's get to-
gether," me and my neighbors, "and form an organization to do tliis."
Mr. Clardy. You want to fight fire with fire, in other words.
Mr. Dare. That is true. You have to do it with the same intensity
they were supposedly fighting Hitlerism.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. ]\Ir. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. Do you have any knowledge of an organization called
the Jewish League Against Communism ?
Mr. Dare. No, sir.
Mr. Jackson. I would suggest that perhaps it miglit fill some of
the qualifications you say you are looking for.
Mr. Dare. The mere fact that I don't know anybody belonging to
it makes me think — and this is no criticism — they may be a little
remiss in reaching the people.
Mr. Jackson. Perhaps the league is not on hand any time that the
occasion arises to reach out and get a recruit, as the Communist Party
was at the time you heard the discussion and decided to do something
about it. One of the great weaknesses of freedom's forces today is
the lack of effective organization it has. The Communist Party, the
Communist conspiracy, is highly organized and highly vocal. If
freedom is Avorth living for it seems to me it is worth looking for.
Mr. Dare. I do look for it, but I haven't been able to find it. I
am sure there are millions more like me.
Mr. Jackson. There are a number of organizations doing extremely
effective work against communism. I am sure with a little effort
you could find some such organization to fit your own requirements
and your own needs.
Mr. Dare. I will be glad to do anything I can, and anyone can have
my phone number and call on me for my services. I will be glad to do
it.
COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 285
Mr. Velde. You did mention one organization, one anti-Communist
organization is all.
Mr. Dare. Yes, the Anti-Communist Crusade for Freedom.
Mr. Clardy. We had a professor in Washington who is also of the
Jewish race, and I think some of the members asked him, I know I
asked, whether he didn't agi"ee with what you said a moment ago, that
the Russian people and the Russian nation and its dictator are anti-
Semitic.
He refused to agree. He said he had seen no evidence in that di-
rection. Have you run across that sort of people out here, in the
Jewish race, who take that attitude?
Mr. Dare. No, because I haven't associated with anybody like that
for a long, long time.
Mr. Clardt. Can you think of any excuse why anyone of the Jewish
race should take an attitude like that?
Mr. Dare. No ; I certainly cannot, unless they refuse to believe the
truth, for other motives.
Mr. Clardy. A subsequent witness suggested about the only thing
we could do with that man would be to send him over to Russia. What
do you think of that?
Mr. Dare. I don't want to pass judgnient on anything or anybody
like that.
Mr. Clardy. It would be a little harsh, wouldn't it?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Dare, you stated this picture was a success
financially
Mr. Dare. This play, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I meant the play. This play "Meet the People."
What was done with the money, do you know ?
Mr. Dare. The purpose for whicli the organization was formed was
to do quite a variety of things. Produce dramatic shows and other
things, establish a school for actors and so forth. I had very little,
if anything, to do with the Hollywood Theater Alliance once the show
was finished. I know they produced a dramatic show, which was a
very big flop and lost money on it. It was a show called "Zero Hour"
by Albert Maltz.
Subsequently I heard that. By this time I think we were in the war
and they were financing a little group of entertainers to go around
and entertain in the defense factories. By this time I am sure they
favored the defense factories and hospitals and Army camps. There
were all sorts ; there was a finance committee, there was a membership
committee, there was a ticket committee.
Our only function was to produce this show, so I couldn't say what
happened to it.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the official connection of Irving Wliite
with the Hollywood Theater Alliance, if you know ?
Mr. Dare. I don't actually remember. I think that for a time he
was a paid employee of the Hollywood Theater Alliance, for a small
amount of money. I don't remember exactly in what capacity it was.
Mr. Velde. How long has it been since you have seen Mr. White,
Mr. Dare?
Mr. Dare. Mr. White, in 1950.
Mr. Velde. Where was that ?
Mr. Dare. Around a place called the Actors' Lab.
286 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Velde. Do you know whether or not he is still interested in the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Dare. I do not, because I have not discussed — as a matter of
fact, ever since then I have — incidentally, I had not seen him from the
time "Meet the People" closed in 1950, and I saw him at that time;
and, of course, I never discussed politics with him.
Mr. Velde. Wliat was his occupation in 1950 ?
Mr. Dare. He was engaged on a committee that was producing a
show for the Actors' Lab.
Mr. Velde, Do you know where he is at the present time ?
Mr. Dare. No, sir ; I haven't seen him since then.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask a question ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. You stated it was a financial success, this "Meet the
People." In what terms do you refer to it as a monetary success?
How many thousand dollars' profit, for instance, if you have ever
heard or knew ?
Mr. Dare. Gosh, I couldn't say. I know it made a couple of
thousand dollars a week for a long period of time. It went on the
road.
Mr. Doyle. For 6 months or a year ?
Mr. Dare. For a year.
Mr. Doyle. A couple of thousand a week ?
Mr. Dare. I actually couldn't be sure. I don't want to name any
great sum and then find out I was wrong. I know it made money,
and I know it made fairly important money. And, in all fairness,
a lot of it was used. There were a lot of people working around.
Wliether they needed them or not, I don't know, but they were people
who would be paid.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. Dare. But there was money made.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. Through the course of your testimony you have given
as reasons for your decisions and actions that it was because of your
attitude on the issue of anti-Semitism. The question I am about to
ask you has no reflection on you or to determine the issue — I ask you,
are you of Jewish heritage ?
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. You stated that you were a member of the Communist
Party some years ago.
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dare. I was in for approximately 2 or 3 months and have been
out since then.
Mr. Frazier. Now, the first faction that you belonged to consisted
of 5 or 6 persons, of which Mr. White seems to have been the moving
spirit. Since your withdrawal have you had any contacts with the
other members of that group ?
Mr. Dare. No.
Mr. Velde. Any association?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 287
Mr. Dare. The people were never friends of mine, including the
people who were in the Hollywood Theater Alliance, were never my
social friends. Tanya Tuttle and —
(At this point Mr. Dare conferred with Mr. Gang and others.)
Mr. Dare. And Mr. White had something to do with a show at the
Actors' Lab, which I directed in 1950, early 1950.
Mr. Frazier. Do you know of your own knowledge whether these
persons that you have mentioned are still members of the Communist
Party ^
Mr. Dare. The persons I have mentioned?
Mr. Frazier. Yes.
Mr. Dare. No ; I wouldn't have known ever since then, because once
I just stopped going — I went to 2 meetings that I can recall, but I am
sure that I went to 1, 2, or 3 more, and I was just bored. I couldn't
sit around and listen to a lot of talk that I didn't understand. I was
just interested in doing something to fight Mr. Hitler. I just stopped
going, and I was asked by Mr. White about going to a meeting, and I
said, "I'm too nervous. I just can't sit around, and I don't know what
you are talking about." Since that time no one has ever told me any-
thing officially about the Communist Party nor have I ever discussed
any official business of the Communist Party with them.
Mr. Frazier. What year was it when you withdrew your active
part?
Mr. Dare. I was in from around March 1939 to around May 1939,
which may explain the fact that I was unaware of things happening
around the Hollywood Theater Alliance. I had already been out
before the show went into its rehearsal. Therefore, I guess I wasn't
taken into confidence and given the reasons why certain materials
should be in the show at the time.
Mr. Frazier. Thank you very much.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Dare, since you severed your connection with the
Communist Party, have you attended any functions of the party ?
Mr. Dare. By "functions" you mean
Mr. Jackson. Have you attended anv meetings of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Dare. Oh, never.
Mr. Jackson. Have you participated in any activities of any Com-
munist-front organizations 5
Mr. Dare. Not knowingly, at least, to my knowledge.
Mr. Jackson. Without your personal knowledge at the time, have
you subsequently discovered that you have participated in Communist-
front organizations or have had any activity whatever in any organi-
zation which has been proscribed as "Communist front"?
Mr. Dare. I may have o;one to some of the so-called parties around
town during the run of Meet the People, which maybe was raising
funds from refugees from Russia, or whatever it was, or Nazi Ger-
many.
I wouldn't want to say "I didn't" unless I was pretty sure I didn't.
Mr. Jackson. Your last association with the Actors' Laboratory
was in 1950, I understand.
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. The Actors' Laboratory was proscribed as a Com-
munist front by the California Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities in their 1947 report, page 74. What was the nature of your
work at the laboratory in 1950 ?
288 COM]VIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Dare. I would like to preface that by saying that, having lost
all interest in so-called leftists, I did not follow the committee's hear-
ings, many committee hearings. I did not keep up with what was
considered "Communist front" or wasn't.
By early 1950 I again had been unemployed for about a year and a
half or more, and Eddie Eliscu and Henry Meyers came to me and
said that the Actors' Laboratory wanted to do a show and would I
direct it. Not being employed and thinking of it as strictly a com-
mercial venture, I signed a contract to do this show, which I did.
Mr. Jackson. Who produced this show?
Mr. Dare. I think it was the Actors' Lab.
Mr. Jackson. "Wlio directed it ?
Mr. Dare. Or a committee from the Actors' Laboratory.
Mr. Jackson. Who directed the show ?
Mr. Dare. I did.
Mr. Jackson. You directed it?
Mr. Dare. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jackson. Was Morris Carnovsky in any way associated with
the production?
Mr. Dare, Yes, sir.
Mr. Jackson. What was his capacity?
Mr. Dare. I first met Mr. Carnovsky when I agreed to do the show.
They said, "You will have to meet with the committee that is pro-
ducing it," and this was the first time I met with Mr. Carnovsky, so
far as I know. He was on the committee that was producing the
show.
Mr. Jackson. Were you also associated with Albert Maltz in the
production of this show?
Mr. Dare. I do not know Mr. Albert Maltz.
Mr. Jackson. My understanding was that you had mentioned
having met him or having last seen him at the Actors' Lab.
Mr. Dare. Oh, no. The only time I mentioned him was in connec-
tion with the fact that the Hollywood Theater Alliance produced a
play of his, which I had notliing to do with. I was not on the com-
mittee that produced that play.
Mr. Tavenner. That was the play entitled "Zero Hour" ?
Mr. Dare. That is correct.
Mr. Jackson. Did you know, at the time of your association with
the Actors' Laboratory in 1950 or several years after its citation as a
Communist venture or a Red front, that Mr. Carnovsky had been
identified as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dare. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Jackson. Over how long a period of time have you had consecu-
tive residence in the Los Angeles area?
Mr. Dare. Consecutive?
Mr. Jackson. Consecutive residence, allowing for short trips to New
York or elsewhere.
Mr. Dare. From 19P,7 to 1950, and then I went to New York for a
yeai- and a half, and then back here.
Mr. Jackson. During that period of time you had no specific knowl-
edge as to the identity of the witnesses before this committee or other
duly constituted agencies of Government or of the nature of the testi-
mony they had given ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 289
Mr. Dare. Not specifically. I was in New York for a year and a
half, and of course the newspapers there don't report daily as they do
here when the meetings are held here. Actually, I did not follow the
meetings of the investigation closely.
Mr. Jackson. I find that I am in error, and I should like to correct
the record. The identification of Mr. Carnovsky, I am told, was
in 1951.
Mr. Dare. I still don't know it.
Mr. Jackson. Are you now prepared to state, Mr. Dare, under the
compulsion of your oath, that you have given the committee all of
the information in your possession Avith reference to the meetings you
attended and those who attended the meetings who were known to you
to be members of the Conununist Party ?
Mr. Dare. To the best of my knowledge, with one exception, which
I have been prepared to name, but we skipped over that part of the
story. I remember a fellow by the name of Kelly Glickman attending
one meeting.
Mr. Jackson. Aside from the ones you have already named, you
have no personal knowledge of any other members of the Comnumist
Party during the period of time you were in the party ?
Mr. Dare. To the best of my knowledge, no, and I do not remember
attending the so-called fraction meeting at which I was named. I re-
member attending a meeting of the Hollywood Theater Alliance to
discuss JNIr. Berkeley's play Abraham Lincoln, but as I remember
it, it took place in the upper lobby of what was then known as the
Music Box Theater, and I do not recall — as a matter of fact, I hardly
know Ed Chodorov or George Sklar, and I am positive I have been at
no meetings with them, not only Communist meetings, but almost
any kind of a meeting.
Mr. Jackson. You have never attended a meeting in company with
any other person or persons whose names you have not given to the
committee this morning?
Mr. Dare. That is true, except as I said, the first meeting that I
went to must have had about 30 people, and I am sure that the 6 I was
later identified with were at that meeting, but who the other people
were I couldn't say. I don't remember.
Mr. Walter. With whom did you go to the first meeting?
Mr. Dare. Mr. White.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question here ?
IVIr. Velde. Yes, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. I think you said when you were in New York this news-
pa}>er was brought to you showing that you had been named by Mr.
Berkeley and you said, "I thought I could brazen it out." What did
you mean by that ? Brazen out what ?
Mr. Dare. Well, in the first place, I didn't remember Mr. Berkeley
from our party, and still don't, and had been so involved in such
a short time I just thought that I could say I wasn't and get away
with it. Of course, I didn't know at that time, I didn't realize the
seriousness of perjury in front of this committee. I was just thinking
of myself and my family, in trying to protect them, and I did the
stupid thing on the spur of the moment.
Mr. Doyle. You have just stated with reference to your perjury,
and I think that it is clear that you did tell a falsehood in connection
290 COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
with your not having been a member of the Communist Party, and
you now say you were.
Mr. Dare. That is true.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, it is true that you told a falsehood.
Mr. Dare, That is true.
Mr. Doyle. Now, let me ask you this: You know it is a standing
offer of this committee, this committee often urges men and women
who have been Communists or who are Communists to come forward
and volunteer whatever the truth is about their connection with the
Communist conspiracy. You know that is true, don't you?
Mr. Dare. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Now, what can this committee do, if anything, in your
judgment, to actively make it more known or more widely known
that there is that standing offer by this committee to have American
citizens who want to clean up their back connection with the Com-
munist conspiracy, subversive conspiracy ? What can we do, if any-
thing, in your judgment, to get more cooperation from men and
women who wish to help in our national security against subversive
communism ? Have you any suggestions ?
Mr. Dare. I feel sure, for instance, that had I been approached
by an investigator for the committee privately and said, "Look, here
is the situation: So and so is going to name j^ou; what about it?"
I might not have gotten scared and panicky and probably would
have cooperated fully from the first, which I am glad I am doing now.
Mr. Doyle. Of course, we don't have enough employees. We don't
have a staff numerically strong enough to send all over the country
to tell these people that they have been named.
Mr. Dare. I realize that.
Mr. Doyle. You realize that.
Mr. Dare. I realize that ; yes.
Mr. D0YI.E. Therefore it couldn't be that kind of a program, but
is there any inducement, any honest, fair, just inducement that we
could make to former Communists or present Communists in this
country who want to clean up their conspiratorial record, to come
clean and help protect our Nation against this subversive conspiracy ?
Have you any suggestions ?
Mr. Dare. Well, to me, it would depend a little on how deeply
anyone was involved. Had I known the treatment that I would have
received from this committee, as I have subsequently learned — inci-
dentally, this was the thing that made me change my mind. I had
visions of being persecuted and everybody being down my throat.
Mr. Doyle. You have been, haven't you ?
Mr. Dare. Well, no.
Mr. Doyle. You don't mean you have been persecuted ? I thought
you had been.
Mr. Dare. Well, I don't think so. As a matter of fact, when I
engaged counsel and he put me in touch with the investigator for
the committee and certain other people in Hollywood who were try-
ing to tell people who may be accused falsely and I saw the reception
I got and the kindness and consideration with which I was treated
and that they were honestly trying to help me, I thought I was doing
justice, not only to them but to myself and my family, and I said,
^'Well, look; let's face it, and this is the truth. You have been nice
to me and I can't double-cross you and put you out on a limb for me."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 291
Now, I think if that is made known to people, this might do it.
Outside of that, I wouldn't know.
Mr. Doyle. Of course, Mr. Dare, the reason I asked you that specific
question was to give you an opportunity — I didn't know what your
answer would be, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell
the American people how you had been treated, if you had been
treated fairly.
Mr. Dare. Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, I think more than fairly
in view of the stupid action that I took originally.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. Velde. Does counsel have anything further?
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson?
Mr, Jackson. No further questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I do have just one question. Mr. Dare, at the begin-
ning of your testimony, I believe you stated that at the time you were
considering joining the party or when these persons were talking to
you about joining the party, you asked them whether or not the Com-
munist Party advocated the overthrow of this Government by force
and violence, and I believe you told us at that time they said that it
did not advocate the overthrow of this Government by force and
violence.
Since that time, what is your opinion with reference to the advo-
cacy by the Communist Party today with reference to the overthrow
of this Government by force and violence ?
Mr. Dare. Well, I think the courts have decided that that is a fact,
that they have been convicted of that very charge by legal evidence.
Mr. Scherer. I know. The courts have decided that, but I want
to know what you think at this time from your experience and your
reading and your knowledge of the activities of the Communist
Party, whether in your opinion the party does advocate today the
overthrow of this Government by force and violence.
Mr. Dare. I would like to make the answer all-embrasive, and I
think they would do anything to accomplish whatever their motives
are that is necessary, including that.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder?
Mr. Moulder. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. No further questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No further questions.
Mr. Velde. Do you have any further questions ?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one further question ?
Mr. Velde. I would like to finish shortly with this witness, if
possible.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr, Dare, you have stated that since the time that
you withdrew from the Communist Party that you have taken part
in certain activities which would indicate your opposition to com-
munism. I don't know that you have stated definitely what those
matters were.
Mr. Dare. And I would like to, if I may. Incidentally, before I
say that, I would just like to say that no one I have ever been con-
292 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
nected with or worked with in the Hollywood Theater Alliance has
ever worked with me at a picture studio or on television, and I never
fraternized or socialized with these people. I would like to bring
that out. They were merely people I worked with in the theater.
I would like to say that in 1942 I took 4 weeks off at my own ex-
pense and traveled with the Hollywood Victory Caravan selling war
bonds. I was one of the committee that opened the Hollywood Can-
teen. I have a citation from both Army Relief and Navy Relief in
1942 commending me for the work I did. During the war I donated
blood to the Red Cross 11 times and again in 1951.
In 1944 I helped stage the show for Truman when he was running
for Vice President here.
In 1947 I produced a show for the Variety Clubs of America for
underprivileged children.
In 1948 I staged a show for Mr. Truman when he was here, when he
appeared here to speak for President, w^hen, incidentally, everybody
was afraid of backing a losing horse.
In 1949, from March to December, I organized and was chairman of a
Cub Scout group.
In 1949 and 1950, my wife and I worked for the PTA as officials.
In 1951 1 did a show for the Red Cross, a telecast. I have citations
from the Big Brothers of America commending me for the work I
have done with them.
Mr. Velde. Is there anything further, counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. That is all.
Mr. Velde. Is there any reason why this witness should not be
excused ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. The witness is excused and the committee will stand
in recess until 1 :35.
(Thereupon, at 12:00 noon, the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 1 :35 p. m., same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 1 : 50 p. m., of the same day, the proceedings were
resumed. Representatives Harold H. Velde, Donald L. Jackson, Kit
Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, Morgan M. Moulder, Clyde Doyle, and
James B. Frazier, Jr., being present.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Counsel, do you have a witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I would like to call Mr. Harold Hecht.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Hecht, will you stand and be sworn ?
In the testimony you are about to give before this committee, do
you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Hecht. Yes.
Mr. Vei^de. Miss Reporter, let the record show at this point those
present are Mr. Jackson, Mr. Clardy, Mr. Scherer, Mr. Moulder, INIr.
Doyle, Mr. Frazier, and chairman, Mr. Velde, a quorum of the full
committee.
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 293
TESTIMONY OF HAROLD ADOLPH HECHT, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, EDWARD BENNETT WILLIAMS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir '?
Mr. Hecht. Harold Adolph Hecht.
Mr. Tavennek. Are you accompanied by counsel 'i
Mr. Hecht. I am.
Mj". Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record?
Mr. Williams. Edward Bennett Williams, of Washington, D. C.
Mr. Tavenner. AVlien and where were you born ?
Mr. Hecht. I was born in New York City, June 1, 1907.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state briefly to the committee what your
educational training has been ?
Mr. Hecht. Public school and high school in New York. I was
graduated from high school in 1923. That is the extent of my formal
education.
Mr. Tavenner. How have you been employed since 1935?
Mr. Hecht. In 1935 I was employed at the Sunmier Hotel in New
Y^ork. In 1936 I did a play for the Theater Guild, But for the Grace
of God. I was assistant to the director and assistant to the stage
manager.
In 1937 I was employed by the Federal Theater.
In 1939 I left the Federal Theater and came to Hollywood. Later
in 1939, at the beginning of 1940, 1 became an agent for the Goldstone
Agency.
In 1942 I entered the Army. In 1945 I w^as discharged. In 1945 I
went into the agency again in partnership with Louis Rantz. In 1946
I dissolved that partnership and was in the agency business alone, and
in 1947 I went into the production of motion pictures.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Hecht, during the course of the testimony taken
before this committee in September 1951, your name wa§ mentioned
by Mr. Martin Berkeley as one of those whom he knew as a member,
of the Communist Party. Now, that testimony was taken in closed
session of the conmiittee and not in an open session, and due to the
fact that the committee learned that you were, I believe, in Italy
Mr. Hecht. That's correct.
Mr. Tavenner. And that by taking that testimony in closed ses-
sion, you would have an opportunity to cooperate with this committee,
as it was your desire, before your name had been made public as a
member of the Communist Party. I think the committee was in
receipt of a message from you, a telegram, indicating that the testi-
mony of Mr. Martin Berkeley wath regard to you was correct.
Mr. Hecht. That is so.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that so ?
Mr. Hecht. Yes, that is so.
Mr. Tavenner. Then we want to take this opportunity to question
you regarding your former Communist Party membership, but before
doing that I would like to ask you, are you now a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Hecht. No, I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you a member of the Comnmnist
Party?
31747— 53— pt. 1 3
294 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Heciit. I was a member of the (V)mminiist Party from 1936
until tlie end of 19,'39 or the beginning of 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. Therefore, you were a mem,ber of the Communist
Party during a part of your career in New York City and also during
a part of your career in Hollywood?
Mr. Hecht. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you tell the committee, please, the cir-
cumstances under which you became a member of the Communist
Party I
Mr. Hecht. In 1935 I left Hollywood. I was without a job and
also without any money. The motion pictures I had been working in
were more or less stop])ed. They were higher-budget pictures, and I
was a dance director at that time. I was out of work for some time.
I went to New York. I remember going to New York, and it was
on a May Day. I saw a vast army marching.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the year?
Mr. H?x'iiT. Yes, sir, 1935. I saw this army marching. There
were i)amphlets, literature, and other material lianded out. I read
the Daily Worker. It interested me. That summer I heard more
about connnunism, that communism found jobs galore, spoke about
the growing need for social reform and social security, with one voice
fighting nazism and fascism, and these things interested me, and in
1936 I joined the party.
Mr. Tavenner. That was in NeAv York City?
Mr. Hecht. That was in New York City.
Mr. Tavenner. Who recruited you in the party?
Mr. Hecht. 1 was going to a labor school at that time. I was re-
cruited by a man who was attending classes with me, a man named
Lewis. 1 ha])pen to remember his name because it was the same
name as the head of the CIO. At that time the Connnunist Party
and the CIO were working together.
Mr. Tavenner. But it was not the same person who was the head
of the CIO?
Mr. HEcirr. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You say at the time that you were recruited you
were attending a labor school. Will you tell us more about that labor
school ?
Mr. Hecht. The labor school was in the headquarters of the Com-
munist Party, a building on 4th Avenue between 12th and 13th Streets,
I believe in New York Cit}'. I took several coui'ses there, 1 in politi-
cal economy, 1 in current events, and 1 in the rise of Marxism and
Leninism. I attended about 5 hours a week.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, what was your purpose in attending the
school if you were not a member of the Connnunist Party at that time ?
Mr. Hecht. Well, the theory and ideas of connnunism interested
me and I decided to find out more about it, and that is the reason I
went to the labor school.
Mr. Tavenn'?:r. AVere other persons in attendance at that school
non-Comnnniist persons?
Mr. Hecht. I believe so. It wasn't necessary to belong to the Com-
nnniist Party to go to the school.
INIr. Tavenxer. Can you tell the connnittee anything about the fac-
idty of that insititution at that time? AVere there any members who
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 295
became known to you later to be members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Heciit. No, I knew none of them. My only connection with
them was in their actual official capacity conducting classes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Marxism taught 'i
Mr. Hecht. Yes ; it was. I took a course in Marxism.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the person by the name of Lewis, who recruited
you into the party, a student or a person connected with the school ?
Mr. Heciit. He was a student, but I believe that he might have
been a student who was more or less a perpetual student in the class,
and that is why, I think, that they weren't all Communists that went
to school, because I believe that his main function in attending the
class was to recruit.
Mr. Tavenner. Was to recruit ?
Mr. Hecht. Yes.
]Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether he recruited any other per-
sons who were students at that school ?
Mr. Hecht. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. When you were recruited into the party, were you
assigned to any particular group or cell of the party ?
Mr. Heciit. Yes; I was. I was assigned to a group in Brooklyn.
This man Lewis was part of that group.
Mr. Tavenner. How many persons composed that group ?
Mr. Heciit. About a dozen. It was a neighborhood group of a
number of housewives and a number of men unemployed, and this man
Lewis.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you a member of that neighborhood
group ?
Mr. Hecht. About 6 months.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee what the principal in-
terests of that particular group were, what objectives they sought to
accomplish ?
Mr. Heciit. As I said, it was a neighborhood group. They circu-
lated r)etitions, canvassed for elections, sold subscriptions to the Daily
Worker. We worked with what was called the Workers' Alliance
which was in that neighborhood, and we did more or less what I would
consider the lower level of Communist activities of that day.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you closely associated with their work in the
Workers' Alliance, that is, the work of the Communist Party within
the Workers' Alliance ?
Mr. Heciit. No. I Avent to a number of meetings of the Workers'
Alliance in this neighborhood, but I was not closely associated with
them. I know that the Workers' Alliance was, I believe a union of,
the unemployed and there was great pressure put on at that time for
jobs for everybody, for greater appropriations for the WPA, and
that was the way the alliance functioned.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall at this time any particular activities
of that Communist Party neighborhood group in promoting the
Workers' Alliance ?
Mr. Heciit. There were sidewalk features, door-to-door canvassing
for signing petitions, constant pressure on Washington to increase
appropriations.
296 COJVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES EN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not the Communist Party
at that time advocated or supported a plan by which Communist
Party members should give their full time to the work of the Workers'
Alliance group, and at the same time be supported by relief? Did
you have any experience of that character ?
Mr. Heciit. No; I am sorry, I haven't.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, at the end of 5 months, do I understand you
were assigned to another group of the Communist Party?
Mr. Hecht. That's correct. I was assigned to another group that
met near Broadway on West 46th Street, I believe. This was a group
that was composed to a great extent of secretarial workers, not people
connected with the theater, although there may have been some sec-
retaries who were connected with the different offices.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you happen to be assigned to that par-
ticular group ?
Mr. Hecht. Well, I wasn't happy with the group that I was work-
ing with in Brooklyn. One of the things that disturbed me very
much was the shifting support for candidate for office in Brooklyn.
The Communists had been supporting him for some time and they
suddenly decided to shift their support to the other candidate. This
seemed to me to be the rashest kind of opportunism and bothered me
very much. I was also disturbed by things that disturbed many
other people that belonged to the Communist Party, lack of democracy.
In addition to that, I was looking for work in New York and on
Broadw^ay, and this seemed to be a much better place for me to be
assigned to the group. Both factors were important in my changing.
I would think that the first was more important than the latter.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain with this second group ?
Mr. Hecht. About 3 months.
Mr. Tavenner. And that began at about what date and ended
about when ?
Mr. Hecht. That began in 1936 and ended, oh, I should say about
the beginning of 1937.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names, please, of any persons
whom you can now recall who were members of that group of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Hecht. I can recall of the second group, I can recall a girl
named Sylvia Siegel.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell that ?
Mr. Hecht. I only know the phonetic spelling, S-i-e-g-e-1.
Mr. Tavenner. All right.
Mr. Hecht. Who was the secretary in charge of the group. I also
remember anotlier accountant. I remember an accountant, another
person whose name was Arren. He had charge of the financial affairs.
(Representative Kit Clardy left the hearing room at this point,
2:05 p. m.)
Mr. Tavenner. What was the cause of the severance of your con-
nections with that particular group after being with it 3 months ?
Mr. Hecht. I started working in the Federal Theater.
Mr. Tavenner. Before I ask you about that, how many pei'sons
were in that group of white-collar workers or secretaries, which was
the second group to which you were assigned ?
Mr. Hecht. Eight or ten.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 297
Mr. Ta\-enner. You say you joined what organization — the
Federal
Mr. Hecht. I was employed by the Federal Theater.
Mr. Tavenner. You were employed by the Federal Theater ?
Mr. Hecht. In 1937.
Mr. Tavenner. In what capacity were you employed ?
Mr. Hecht. I was in charge of a unit there, a show, a musical revue.
Mr. Ta\tsnner. Was that a WPA project?
Mr. Hecht. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When you say you were ''in charge of a unit," will
you explain that a little more fully, please ?
Mr. Hecht. This was a musical revue. It was necessary to compile
songs, sketches, lyrics, something similar to what Mr. Dare spoke
about. However, I had started organizing it from the start. I got
a number of writers to work on the songs, sketches, music, dancing,
costumes, et cetera, and also we had to secure a «ast. These people
were recruited from roles in the Federal Theater.
Mr. Tavenner. I did not hear the last part.
Mr. Hecht. I said these people came from the Federal Theater.
Is it difficult to hear me ?
Mr. Tavenner. I can hear you now. How long did you occupy
that type of a position with the Federal Theater?
Mrl Hecht. I was there until 1939, when I left to go back to
Hollywood.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there any particular show that you worked on
while employed by the Federal Theater ?
Mr. Hecht, Yes; there was a revue called Sing For Your Supper.
Mr. Tavenner. Sing for Your Supper?
Mr. Hecht. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta%t.nner. How long did it take to produce that show ?
Mr. Hecht. About 2 years.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliy was it necessary to take that much time to
produce it?
Mr. Hecht. Well, it was a very large show. There were many
people in the show who went back to private industry, particularly
people who were important to the show.
In addition to that, their appropriations were constantly being cut
in the Federal Theater, and we would have to cut the cast and rear-
range numbers and rearrange the show, and that was the reason it
took so long.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the play finally produced ?
Mr. Hecht. Yes ; it was. It was produced in April, I believe, 1939.
Mr. Tavenner. Did it meet with reasonable success?
Mr. Hecht. I would think so. Not a great success, but I think it
met with reasonable success.
Mr. Tavenner. How many persons were in the cast ?
Mr. Hecht. About 200.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you define just exactly what your duties
were with regard to the persons in that cast and the production of
the play ?
Mr. Hecht. I was in charge of it.
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder left the hearing room at this
point, 2: 10 p. m.)
298 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Hecht. Tliere was a dance director, one for the modern dance
fjroiip and one for jazz dance ^roup. Tliere were sketches to be
rehearsed and people to rehearse them. Countless numbers of people
who were to be in the show, and I had charjre of the entire business.
Mr. Tavexxer. That meant it was your responsibility to hire and
fii-e members of the cast?
Mr. Hecht. Well, it was not my sole responsibility. 1 was not
outii'ely in charge of that, but I had something to do with it certainly.
Mr. Tavex'xer. You had a very heavy responsibility with regard
to the personnel ?
Mr. Hecht. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I assume from your statement you did.
Mr. Hecht. Yes. I did.
Mr. Tavex-^xer. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
you held that position ?
Mr. Hecht. Yes; I was.
^Ir. Tavex-^x'er. AAHiat group of the Connnunist Party did you
belong to at the time that you were emploj^ed by the Federal Theater?
Mr. Hecht. I belonged to a group that was concerned with this
particular show.
Mr. Tavex-^xer. You mean to say that there was a Communist Party
cell or group established within the cast which produced this play?
Mr. Hecht. Well, there was the cast, there were the workers. I
said there were 200 in the cast. I should say from the time we started
the show until the show went on there might have been 500 people
connected with it.
Mr. Ta\'enner. But probably about 200 at any one time; is that
correct ?
Mr. Hec^tit. That is correct.
(Representative Kit Clardy reentered the hearing room at this
])oint, 2: 13 p. m.)
Mr. Tavexxer. How many persons com])osed this group or cell of
the Communist Party, within the Federal Theater ?
Mr. Hecht. About 40.
Mr. Tavexxer. How many?
Mr. HECirr. Fortv.
Mr. Tavex^xer. Forty. Now, were there other plays being pro-
duced at the same time that you were producing Sing for Your Sup-
per ?
Mr. Hecht. Oh, yes; many of them.
Ml-. Tavex'xer. Do you know anything about Communist Party
groups or cells within the cast which were involved in the production
of other plays?
Mr. Hecht. No ; I do not.
Mr. Tavexxer. Now, will you tell the committee just what the
objective was of the group of Communists that had been organized
within the Federal Theater, at least within your project, the one that
was ]n'oducing Sing for Your Supper?
Mr. Hecht. Well, they had the immediate objective of keeping
their jobs, trying to influence the content of the show to some extent,
and tliey had the larger objectives which all Communist Party mem-
Ikm's have of following the ])arty line, of reading literature, of doing
certain neighborhood work.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 299
Mr. Tavexner. Well now; \\\t\\ reoard to the objective that you
said all Coinmiiiiist Party groups have, in following the Comnmnist
Party line, do you recall in what way that manifested itself?
Mr. Hecht. Well, there was constant pressure to keep up the
appropriations for the Federal Theater and the'WPA. There were
certain groups organized to go to Washington and there was
Mr. Tavenner. You are speaking now of groups of Communist
Party members ?
Mr. Heciit. That is right. There was a great deal of picketing,
for one reason or another. I can't remember much else. It seems to
me there probably was something more, but I didn't spend a great
deal of time at these meetings. I went to them approximately once
a montli or once in 3 weeks, and I had no other connection with it
than that.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you have any official connection with this
group ? I mean did you you hold any position at any time ?
Mr. Heciit. I was what you would call in charge of literature, the
literature director for a while. I sold the pamphlets to people. I took
up subscriptions for the Daily Worker. I did all the various things
connected with distributing and disseminating literature.
Wlien I was part of the group I had no greater position than anyone
else in the group.
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder reentered the hearing room
at this point, 2 : 15 p. m. )
Mr. Tavenner. So that you had a rather small part in the Com-
munist Party activity of the cell, as such, though you held a very
important position in that you were the head of the project ?
jNIr. Heciit. That is true.
Mr. Tavenxer. Now, did the Communist Party endeavor to influ-
ence you as the manager — is that the right term to use in your position?
JNIr. Hecht. Producer, I would say,
Mr. Tavenner. As producer of this play ?
Mr. Hecht. At one time there was great protest among a number
of the comrades over the content of the show. There was a dress
rehearsal and V. J. Jerome, who was the cultural director of the party,
was at this dress rehearsal. The rehearsal was not given for him, but
he was there. After the show
Mr. Tavexner. V. J. Jerome at that time was the cultural director
of the Communist Party in this country, was he not?
Mr. Hecht. I believe so. I am not sure that is his actual title, but
that describes the position he held.
Mr. Tavenxer. It has appeared in the evidence during the course
of this hearing or these hearings that V. J. Jerome was the person
sent out from national headquarters to various parts of the countiy to
settle disputes that existed within the party. He was sent here in the
very early days of the party to straighten out various difficulties.
Now you are telling us that he appeared at the dress rehearsal of
your play, which you have described?
Mr. Hecht. That is right. He settled this one. I remember we
had a midnight meeting and he talked to us about the play. He felt
that it was good, that A\diile it did not necessarily follow the party line
or was as left as a number of the people wanted it to be
Mr. Ta-vt.xner. When you say "'a number of people," what people ?
300 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Hecht. As I said before, there was a group of the people in
this unit wlio had protested about the content of the show. They felt it
wasn't sufficiently slanted to the left.
Mr. Tavennek. Were those persons members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Hecht. Oh, yes; they were.
Mr. Tavenner. They were.
Mr. Hecht. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. So. this dispute raised within your Communist
Party cell
Mr. Hecht. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner (continuing). Where some of them were of the
opinion that the propaganda was not pointed enough ?
Mr. Hecht. Or sufficiently strong.
Mr. Tavenner. Or sufficiently strong ?
Mr. Hecht. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. And V. J. Jerome was called in to settle that dis-
pute ; is that what I understand?
Mr. Hecht. That is right.
Mr. Ta\t:nner, Well, now. just tell us what V. J. Jerome did.
Mr. Hecht. Well, he said he thought that it was a good show. If
it was slanted any more it would become sectarian. The content of the
show was good and these criticisms were unjust.
Mr. Ta\t.nner. Then was the show put on in substantially the same
form that had been planned ?
Mr. Hecht. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. Suppose Mr. Jerome had not been in approval, do
you believe that his influence would have been sufficient to change the
content matter?
Mr. Hecht. Well, we were pretty far gone by that time. I think it
might have been.
Mr. Jackson. You think any suggested changes he might have
made would have been incorporated into the production ?
Mr. Hecht. I wouldn't say any suggested changes, but I think if he
suggested changes they certainly would have been taken into con-
sideration.
Mr. Jackson. The fact of his presence there would have indicated
he was more or less acting in the capacity of censor of the production,
would it not?
Mr. Hecht. Yes ; I think you would say acting as a judge.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tav-enner. Do you recall who took part in the conference with
V. J. Jerome on the occasion that you mentioned ?
Mr. Hecht. I don't think there was anybody else from the official —
from the party, any of the higher ups, any of the higher hierarchy.
Mr. Tavenner. You are of the opinion that there were no persons
superior to you that were involved in the Communist Party efforts to
control this production; is that it?
Mr. Hecht. I am sorry. I tliought you said ""Who else appeared
with Mr. Jerome?"
Mr. Ta\^nner. I did start out the question that way. So let's start
over.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 301
Mr. Hecht. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. Did anyone else take part in the conference with
V. J. Jerome — excuse me. Let me change that again.
Who did take part in this conference with V. J. Jerome when he
said that the play should not be more slanted than it was?
Mr. Hecht. No one, other than the people who were concerned with
our group or unit.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were they ?
Mr. Hecht. There were a number of functionaries. There was
Rose Pearson.
Mr. Tavenner. Give us the spelling, please.
Mr. Hecht. I believe it is P-e-a-r-s-o-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Rose Pearson.
Mr. Hecht. Yes. Trudy Peck.
Mr. Tavenner. Trudy Peck, P-e-c-k?
Mr. Hecht. Yes. sir. Robert Sloan and Georgia Burns.
Mr. Ta\^nner. How do you spell Burns?
Mr. Hecht. B-u-r-n-s.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the first name?
Mr. Hecht. Georgia.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Will you spell it, please ?
Mr. Hecht. G-e-o-r-g-i-a.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Hecht, I believe it would be of great help to the
committee if you would identify the occupations of these individuals,
if you have that information.
Mr. Hecht. These people were connected with the project. They
were aspiring actors and actresses. The Federal Theater was created
for the unemployed in the theatrical profession, and most of the
people were drawn from those ranks. These people were part of
that group.
Mr. Tavenner. Did they hold any official positions in the Commu-
nist Party group of which you were a member ?
Mr. Hecht. No, sir. These were people who were just part of the
unit, a part of the show.
Mr. Tavenner. Were they members of the Communist Party
unit?
Mr. Hecht. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Tavenner. Of which you were a member ?
Mr. Hecht. That is true.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated that another objective of this Commu-
nist Party group was to maintain the positions of various persons
in and with the Federal Theater, if I understood you correctly.
Mr. Hecht. That's correct.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Hecht. Well, if there was a tie or if there was a matter of
doubt, we were expected to keep and to continue the member who
belonged to the Communist Party. As I said before, at that time
appropriations were being cut and there were quite a number of
firings. While it was recognized that there couldn't be discrimi-
nation ; however, we were expected to favor the members of the Com-
munist Party in retaining their jobs. There was one instance I
remember very well when we were asked to drop a number of people
from one of the groups, and there was a person reported to be a
302 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Trotskyite and \ve let that person go. However, that person was
not necessarily inferior to a nnmber of other people who were in line
for that same position.
It struck me recently, when the snit was brought for $.51 million,
the Communists claimed that they can't be employed now because they
are Communists, but they were framing to allow someone to be fired
who was not a Communist, who was considered an enemy of the
Communist Party.
Mr. TA^'ENXER. So that tlie Communist Party interested itself in
the firing of a person who was thought to be a Trotskyite.
Mr. Heciit. That is true.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. Are you referring to the $51 million lawsuit, you
m.ean the lawsuit filed against members of this committee and other
pei'sons ?
Mr. Hecht. Yes; I think I might become a partner of yours in that
lawsuit.
Mr. Velde. Mr. PTecht. as far as that lawsuit is concerned, let me
say for myself that I consider it a frivolous action, designed as a device
by the Communist Party to hamper and hinder these hearings, to
prevent us from uncovering the activity of those people who filed the
suit against us; that it will be considered by me as such type of suit.
Now, proceed.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. DoYi.E. If you refer to the summons and complaint that was
also served on me about an hour ago for about 51 million dollars,
I want to give notice to the Communist subversives in this room or in
the country or who are directly or indirectly interested in filing that
suit, that that will not stop me in going after them. If they are sub-
versive I will go after them any place. That is the way I feel about
the suit you refer to.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, may I interject a remark?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. We two members have not been honored by being in-
cluded in that suit, but if they think they will intimidate either of
us from pursuing the activities of the committee by this threat, they
are going to find themselves misjudging us.
Do I speak for you, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Sciierer. Yes; and we haven't got a million dollars.
Mr. Clardy. But I am flattered that they think the members do
have.
Mr. Jacksox. Mr. Chairman, not on that point, but on another
point
Mr. Velde. jSIr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. I think it is extremely interesting that the non-Com-
miniists in the Federal Theater setup were blacklisted in much the
same inanner, I should judge from your testimony, as is presently
being claimed by unfriendly witnesses here in Hollywood.
Am I to understand that if it came to a question of firing a Com-
munist or non-Connnunist, you were expected to fire the non-Com-
munist?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 303
Mr. Heciit. Tliat is true. If the iioii-C'oiimmnist— I wouldn't say
I he non-Comniunist. 1 woukl say the outspoken anti-Connnunist.
Mr. Jackson. The anti-Connnunist.
Mr. Heciit. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. He got the ax.
Mr. Heciit. That's right.
Mr. Jackson. In a matter of casting, if you had a Connnunist and
a non-Coinnuinist critic. I suppose there was no question as to who
was to be employed.
Mr. Heciit. Xo.
Mr. Jackson. The Connnunist would get the job.
Mr. Hecht. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. It is interesting to know there is some historical prec-
edent for blacklisting.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Ch'airuuni?
Mr. Velde. ]\Ir. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. The members of this project were paid from Federal
funds at that time, were they not ^
Mr. Heciit. Yes, they were.
Mr. Scherer. Sir^
Mr. Heciit. Yes, they were.
Mr. Scherer. Could I ask another question '.
Mr. Velde. Yes. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. I believe you said that Mr. Jerome, Avhen he was
reviewing the play, said that if the play would be slanted as the Com-
munists wanted it to be slanted it would appear too sectarian. Do you
know what he meant by that?
Mr. Heciit. I think lie meant that it would be an out-and-out Com-
munist propaganda.
Mr. Clardy. They wanted to be more subtle about it, in other words,
Mr. Hecht. Yes, they did.
Mr. Scherer. Who was head of the Federal project at that time?
Mr. Hecht. In New York George Kondolf was the head. Hallie
F'lanagan was the head of the national Federal Theater.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you give us those spellings, please?
Mr. Hecht. George Kondolf, K-o-n-d-o-l-f. And Hallie Flanagan,
F-1-a-n-a-g-a-n.
I would like to say, if I may, I consider the Federal Theater a hall-
mark in the history of the American theater. There were a great
many plays put on by the Federal Theater. A great many people
saw them and a great many people got a great deal of enjoyment
out of them. The art of the theater was really increased by the
Federal Theater, and I hope you don't consider my remarks in any
Avay an attack on the Federal Theater itself.
Mr. Jackson. Were there a great many non-Communists in the
Federal Theater?
Mr. Hecht. There were a great many non-Communists. A great
many plays were produced and these plays were accorded very high
esteem.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. In view of the Avitness' observation, however, about the
Federal Theater, I think his testimonv at this time shows that the
304 COMJMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
maximum number of people participating in the cast at any one time
were 200 with a total cast membership of 500 during the whole period ;
that there were about 40 members of the Communist Party in the cast,
which means about 1 in 5. So the Communist subversives made pretty
good gravy.
Mr. Hecht. Out of this particular group; I don't know about the
others.
Mr. Doyle. I only refer to the group you were testifj'ing about.
Mr. Hecht, Yes.
Mr. Ci^A.RDY. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Velde. ;Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Another question suggests itself : You mentioned the
fact that the Trotskyite branch were blacklisted, so to speak. Do I
understand you correctly?
Mr. Hecht. I never quite understood what a Trotskyite was. It
seems to me a Trotskyite was anyone who had been a Communist and
who no longer was a Communist and who might be attacked for that
reason, as differing from an anti-Communist who had never been a
Communist. I don't believe there was any organized Trotslo'ite
grou]:).
Mr. Clardy. By that do you not mean those who adhere to the
Trotsky brand of communism?
Mr. Hecht. It was a more embracing term that that, I would think.
Mr. Clardy. AYliat do you mean ?
Mr. Hecht. I think it included many people who had been Com-
munists and who were not Communists any longer and it was a very
convenient label for them.
Mr. Clardy. Is it not true that you probably blacklisted anyone
who did not adhere to the official Communist Party line as such 'i
Mr. Hecht. Do you mean who had been a member of the party who
did not — ^you see, there were a great many non-Communists in the
Federal Theater.
Mr. Clardy. No, I mean this: Whether they were or were not
members of the Communist Party is unimportant for the purpose of
my question. I am trying to get at this: Isn't it true, if you were
or had been a Communist but did not adhere firmly to the official party
line, you were just as bad off as though you were completely outside
the party?
Mr. Hecht. Worse off, I would say.
Mr. Velde. I believe this will be a proper place to break off for our
recess. We will stand in recess until 2 : 45.
(Short recess was taken.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will come to order.
The chair recognizes Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, under the resolution of the committee
relative to the matter of television facilities in the hearing room and
in the Federal Building, the committee was unanimous in its ex-
pression that the facilities were considered desirable for public in-
formation, subject to certain specific provisions which were set forth
in the resolution.
I understand the resolution has been read in full. However, the one
paragraph which is pertinent to a matter which has developed should
be read again. That is paragraph 2 of the resolution, which states:
COMlVnjNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 305
Telecasts of committee hearings shall be on the basis of a public service only
and this fact shall be publicly announced on television at the beginning and
close of each telecast. No commercial announcements will be made from the
hearing room and no actual or intimated sponsorship of the hearings will be
permitted in any instance.
It develops, and there have been several complaints received by the
committee to the effect, that immediately preceding the hearing this
morning there was telecast a program which might have left an in-
ference with the public that the hearings were being sponsored. The
committee desires to make it very clear that that is not the case. There
is no sponsorship of these hearings. It was the expressed hope of
the committee that this fact would be made absolutely clear.
I think, Mr. Chairman, that the television groups which are oper-
ating under this pool arrangement must take steps to insure that it
be made very clear to the people of southern California there is no
sponsorship nor should any be intimated.
Mr. Velde. The chair recognizes Mr. Doyle.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Chairman, I join in the observations made by Con-
gressman Jackson of Los Angeles County.
I wish to expressly ask that the television outfits that are televising
this committee work the rest of the week and today, the rest of the
time today, either directly or indirectly immediately comply with the
resolution of the committee. I would say if they don't comply they
ought to be discontinued.
We are not here as an advertising medium for any organization.
We are here as United States Congressmen. I don't think that in
any way any television outfit or any publicity outfit ought to capitalize
on these hearings.
Mr. Chairman, I am saying again very emphatically they ought to
discontinue it forthwith.
Mr. Velde. The chair agrees with both the distinguished gentlemen
from California. I feel it is the prerogative of these gentlemen to
handle the issues which come up in their own State.
However, I do want the public to know that we by no means are
allowing these hearings to be broadcast for commercial purposes.
This is merely a public service so that the people might have more
information as to what goes on in their United States House of Repre-
sentatives and their Congress.
So the Chair will greatly appreciate it, and will insist no further
reference to these hearings be made on a commercial basis.
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Hecht, it seems that you must have been put
in a very difficult position, having a responsibility to your employer,
the Federal Theater, in doing the right sort of a job and at the same,
time being responsible to the Communist Party to observe its dictates
with regard to whom you should continue in work, as to whom you
should discharge.
Now, have you anything further to say about that situation?
Mr. Hecht. Again, Mr. Tavenner, 1 don't want to give the im-
pression this was flagrant. This happened all the time. These
cases were isolated and few. Nevertheless, they existed.
The Federal Theater couldn't have been the success it was, couldn't
have done the work it did if this was a continual practice in the Fed-
eral Theater. But, certainly, it often made things difficult.
306 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. If I understand it correctly, the Federal Theaters
were sponsored solely by Federal funds.
Mr. Hkcht. That is true.
Mr. Tavenxer. Funds from the United States Government.
Mr. Hecht. Yes.
Mr. Tavknxkr. When did you terminate your relationship with the
Federal Theater t
Mr. Hecht. In 1939.
Mr. Tavenner. Xow, what was the reason for it ?
Mr. Hecht. The show had gone on, the Federal Theater was cutting
appropriations to a great extent, and I could see that if I didn't leave
very soon they would leave me. So I left the Federal Theater in
April— I think probably in May 1939.
Mr. Tavenner. AVhat was your next employment?
Mr. Hecht. My next employment was as an agent with the Gold-
stone Agency.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chainiian.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clai{I)Y. Counsel, had you asked him questions along the lines
of discovering whether his knowledge really went beyond the one
unit to which he was attached?
Mr. Tavex^ner. I think I asked him that question.
Mr. Clardy. Do you tliink you have that thoroughly covered?
Mr. TA^^>:x^NER. I think I understood the witness to say he did not
know about the Conununist Party in any other group.
Mr. Hecht. Not in any other group.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me be certain about that. Did you have knowl-
edge whether or not there existed a Communist Party cell in any other
group of the Federal Theaters engaged in the production of any play ?
Mr. Hecht. I didn't have any direct knowledge, although I should
imagine there were quite a few. I said I didn't have any direct
knowledge. I never met with any of the groups, although I imagine
there were quite a few.
]\fr. Tavenxer. Do you recall whether or not there was a fraction
meeting of any kind made up of representatives of your own Commu-
nist Party cell and representatives of any other Communist Party
cell within the Federal Theater?
Mr. Hecuit. I don't remember attending ixwy.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have knowledge of Communist Party mem-
bership on the part of any other person in Federal Theaters, other
tlian the ones you have mentioned?
Mr. Hecht." No, I do not.
Mr. Tavenxer. Does that cover it?
Mr. Clardy. Yes, that is what I wanted.
Mr. Tavexxer. "\^Tiat was your employment after you terminated
your relationship with the Federal Theater in ]May 1939?
Mr. Hecht. I came to Hollywood. I was without a job for some
time and then I became an agent with the Nat Goldstoue Agency.
IMi'. Tavexxer. When did vou become an agent in that firm?
Mr. Hecht. Late in 1939.
Mr. Tavenxer. Who were the other members of that firm at that
time?
Mr. Hfxut'I'. There was Mr. Nat Goldstoue, his brother Charles
Goldstoue, Louis llantz, William Fay, and several others. I don't
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA 307
remember tliem immediately, but I certainly could find out, if you
wanted to know.
Mv. TA^■ENNER. Prior to your becoming afiiliated with tliat agency,
had you reafRliated with the Communist Party in Los Angeles?
Mr. Heciit. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenxer. Tell the committee how that occurred.
Mr. Hecht. I met a Madelaine Ruthven after I had been here for
about a month. I met her at a social function and she talked to me
about coming to meetings. I had not sought her out, although I had
heard that she was the secretary or the organizer for the Hollywood
group.
She asked me why I hadn't been to see her. Evidently she had
heard about me and she felt I should have been to see her. I told
lier I had been inactive for some time before that, I hadn't gone to
meetings for several months before I left New York, and I didn't
care particularly whether I went to meetings or not.
I again was out of work. I was feeling very low. I had great
disillusion with the party, and I discussecl this with her. She felt
that this might be just a matter of my own personal feeling, and
that when you are once a Communist you never could drop it com-
pletely or entirely, and she asked me to attend a meeting at Herbert
Biberman's house.
Mr. Tavexxer. Let me sto]) you there a moment. How did Made-
laine Ruthven know vou had been a member of the Communist Party
in New York?
Mr. Heciit. I don't know.
Mr. Tavexxer. Did you advise her before she said something to
you about it ?
Mr. Hecht. No, I didn't. But she had evidently heard about me.
1 think it might have gone through the mail or through someone who,
seeing that New York and Hollywood was rather closely alined,
although the party here was more secretive than it was in New York,
that in one of those ways she probably found out about me.
Mr. Tavexxer. You attended a meeting at whose home ?
Mr. Hecht. Herbert Biberman's.
Mr. Tavexxer. Will you describe him more fully, please, as to
his occupation ?
Mr. Hecht. Herbert Biberman was a director in Hollywood. He
was formerly theatrical director in New York. He directed a num-
ber of plays, "Green Grow the Lilacs," and I believe he directed a
play called "Red China," or "Raw China," but at any rate, he directed
a number of i)lays in New York.
Mr. Tavexxj:r. How many meetings did you attend at his home?
Mr. Hecht. 1 attended several. I was then asked to go to meetings
at Gertrude Purcell's home.
Mr. Tavexxer. Will you give the spelling of that name, please?
Mr. Hecht. P-u-r-c-e-1-1, I believe. I would like to explain the
circumstances of this.
Mr. Tavexxer. Yes.
Mr. Hecht. At this meeting at Herbert Biberman's house I met
a Frank Tuttle. Frank Tuttle was a director of a picture for which
I directed the dances at Paramount Pictures when I was in Holly-
wood before. He was the only man that I knew at that meeting. I
was rather surprised to see him there.
308 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
After the meeting we had a discussion about my own feeling about
communism, about liis attitude toward it, and he asked me if I would
go to a meeting at Gertrude Purcell's house, which I did. I went
to a number of meetings there over a period of, I would say, about
6 to 8 months. I went to a number of meetings there and to a number
of meetings at Biberman's house.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. What was discussed at those meetings? That is
one of the things we are interested in and would like to hear about.
"\^'liat was said there and what was your purpose in going there ?
Mr. Heciit. I don't remember it too well. We discussed the state
of the Nation, the state of the world, what the Communists must
do to make it better. At that time the party was going through one
of its changes and I remember in that year, I think it was August
or September, the Nazi-Soviet pact was signed and that really blew
the lid off. For a couple of months more this was the thing that
was discussed.
I think I went to about 4 meetings or 5.
Mr. Moulder. When did you discontinue your affiliation with the
Communist Party organization?
Mr. Hecut. At the beginning of 1940.
Mr. Moulder. At the beginning of 1940 ?
Mr, Hecht. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. At anytime since then have you in any way been con-
nected with the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hecht. I have not attended a meeting or been connected in any
way with the Communist Party since then.
Mr. Moulder. Do you think your prior membership wnth the Com-
munist Party has influenced you in any way as a writer ?
Mr. Hecht. I am a producer.
Mr. Moulder. Or as a producer ?
Mr. Hecht. No, I don't feel that it has influenced me in my work
at all.
Mr. Moulder. It has never at any time so influenced you ?
Mr. Hecht. I have never hired a Communist because he was a Com-
munist. I have never had any communism propaganda in my pictures
or never been accused of having any.
Mr. Moulder. Was there any attempt on the part of any Commu-
nist leaders or persons in the party organization to so influence you?
Mr. Hecht. No, there wasn't. I left the party and no one ever
tried to rerecruit me.
Mv. Velde. Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Hecht, I noticed before the recess you said "other
things disturbed me a great deal, the lack of democracy." Those I
think were your exact words. Now, a few minutes ago you said "I
had great disillusion with the party." Wliat did you mean when you
said that the lack of democracy in the Communist Party disturbed
you a great deal?
Mr. Hecht. One of the things that was told us and taught to us
was that the Communist Party is a democratic organization, the mem-
bers of which decided on the action and line of the party. This I
found never to be true. I found
Mr. Doyle. You say never to be true ?
COACMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 309
Mr. Heciit, ay ell, it may have been true on ordinary and mundane
things, you know, whether they should walk on a picket line at 3 or
5 o'clock. When there were important decisions, when important
decisions were made, these decisions came down to us.
Mr. Doyle. Came from where?
Mr. Heciit. Some place from up above.
Mr. Doyle. Well, you mean from some source of which you had
no knowledge ?
Mr. Hecht. Yes. These matters Avere decided and they were passed
on to us. It was considered a matter of party discipline to follow
the line.
Mr. Doyle. Well, did all members of the cell in which you were a
member follow the party line, even though the orders came from some-
where, you didn't know where?
Mr. Hecht. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Did you take dictation, in other words, from some out-
side source ?
Mr. Hecht. That is true.
Mr. Doyle. Why did you do that ?
Mr. Hecht. Because there were other things that I felt that the
Communist Party stood for, and as I said before, it bothered me so
much that was one of the most important reasons I left.
Mr. DoTLE. What other disillusion, if any, did you have with the
party ? You said you had a great disillusion with the party.
Mr. Hecht. At this time Roosevelt w^as called a warmonger. The
Communist Party had supported Roosevelt and supported him
strongly, and suddenly he became a warmonger. It was a little diffi-
cult to follow and a little difficult to swallow. It was also at this time,
as I said before, the Nazi-Soviet pact occurred.
One of the reasons I came into the party was because the party was
fighting against nazism and against facism, and now for some reason
that I couldn't understand or believe in, although there were great
attempts made to explain it, this was changed and communism and
nazism were alined.
Mr. Doyle. Well, didn't you have any power of helping to make
those decisions, as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hecht. As I said, Congressman, there was no democratic pro-
cedure in the party. You could have questioned. There was often
discussion, but at the end of the discussion you were supposed to be
clear on it.
Mr. Doyle. From some outside source ?
Mr. Hecht. From some inside source, the origination of which you
didn't know.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. Just one question.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. During the past 12 years, or since you ceased affilia-
tion with the Communist Party, have you any information or knowl-
edge of any Communist activities in the entertainment field, motion
picture, musical or on the stage, concerning the efforts of Communists
to infiltrate in and take control over their organizations or to influence
their productions?
31747 — 53— pt. 1 4
310 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Hecht. Xo: I haven't. I have read a number of things that
have come up durino; the committee meetings, but outside of that I
had no knowledge.
Mr. Fr.\zier. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. P^razier.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Hecht, during your membership in the Com-
munist Party, from 1936 to 19-10, I believe you stated you belonged
to three separate and distinct cells. First, in Brooklyn and then —
Where was the second cell you belonged to, in New York City?
Mr. Hecht. That is right.
Mr. Fr.\zier, And then
Mr. Heciit. West 48th Street, and the other was also on West 48th
Street.
Mr, Frazier. Then a cell composed of the Federal Theater, is that
right?
Mr. Hecht. That was the third.
Mr. Frazier. Now, did the teachings that were carried on in these
cells have any similarity with the same things carried on in each one
of these cells ?
Mr. Hecht. To a great extent. Propaganda and party line changed
constantly, and we struggled to keep abreast of the events.
Mr. Frazier. Do you recall any of the members that you were asso-
ciated with up in the Brooklyn cell ?
Mr. Hecht. No ; I don't.
Mr. Frvzier. I believe you said there Avere about 40 members of the
P^ederal Theater to which you belonged.
Mr. Hecht. That's correct.
Mr. P^RAziER. Do you recall any of those names of members that as-
sociated with you there?
Mr. Hecht. I gave the mimes of the four members I recall.
Mr. Frazier. Only the four?
Mr. Hecht. Yes, sir.
Mr. Frazier. Have you had association with any of those men since
^ou left the Comnninist Party, men or women?
Mr. Hecht. No, I have never seen them. You see the Federal
Theater was composed, for the most part, of actors who had been un-
employed, who were interested in working in the theater, and there
was professional and also semiprofessional. These people I have had
no contact wnth since I saw them last during this part.
Mr. Frazier. That's all.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. Hecht, as I understood you to say, you wanted
to describe the circumstances under which you attended the Commu-
nist Party meeting at the home of Gertrude Purcell, I am not cer-
tain whether you finished your testimony about that.
Mr. Heciit. I thought I did. You asked me if I belonged to the
grou)) at PurcelTs house. I said I went to meetings at both groups
and I never considered myself and 1 didn't know whether the Com-
munists considered me particularly identified with either grouj), but
I went to meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. At both homes for a long period of time?
Ml-. Hecht. I would sav l)etween 6 and 8 months.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 311
Mr. Tavenner. Will you advise the coniniittee who were in attend-
ance at those meetings, that is, the Connnunist Party at Bibernian's
home and at the home of Gertrude Purcell^
Mr. Hecht. You want the names ^
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Heciit. Betty Anderson.
Mr. Jackson. With identification as to occupation, if you know the
occupation.
Mr. Tavenner. Give all of the identifying material you can.
Mr. Hecht. Betty Anderson, I believe, is a housewife, was a
secretary.
Martin Berkeley was a writer.
Edward Biberman, a painter. Herbert Biberman, director.
John Bright, writer ; Gordon Kahn, writer ; John Howard Lawson,
writer ; Mel Levy, writer ; Albert Maltz, writer ; Gertrude Purcell,
writer; Meta Reis, housewife at that time; Madelaine Ruthven,
professional Communist ; Budd Schulberg, writer.
Madelaine Ruthven Avas also a writer. Gale Sondergaard, actress,
and Frank Tuttle, director.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you mention the name of Budd Schulberg?
Mr. HEcirr. Yes; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the following persons who were
just mentioned by the witness have testified before this connnittee
arid admitted their former Communist Party membership and have
testified freely before the committee ; namely, Betty Anderson, George
Bassman, Martin Berkeley, Mel Levy, and Meta Reis [Rosenberg],
Budd Schulberg, and Frank Tuttle.
Did you go through any formality in terminating your Communist
Party membership?
Mr. HECirr. Xo; I didn't. I just sto]iped going to meetings, drifted
out. I drifted out. I left the party and 1 went to no more meetings
after the beginning, I would say, of January and February of 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time that you withdrew^ from the party by
ceasing to attend meetings, you were with the agency that you men-
tioned, the Goldstone Agency ?
Mr. Hecht. The Goldstone Agency.
Mr. Tavenner. With the Goldstone Agency, were yon not?
Mr. Hecht. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did your w^ithdrawal from the Communist Party
result in any change in attitude on the part of former business asso-
ciates with your agency?
Mr. Hecht. You mean clients?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Hecht. Whom I might have represented in the agency?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Hecht. No; I made no formal break with the party. I had no
quarrel with the people in the party. I was disturbed and disillu-
sioned about many of the facets and the practices of the party and I
just left. However, I made no formal observance of that.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you in a position to state to the connnittee what
percentage of your clients while you were an agent were meml)ers of
the Communist Party?
312 COIMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Heciit. Yes, sir. You probably noticed me looking at a num-
ber of notes I have here. I have gone through these things rather
carefully and if you don't mind 1 will refer to them more or less
constantly.
When I first went into the agency business, this was 1940 to 1912.
In 1942 I went into the Army. I had 36 clients. Ten of these clients
were named.
Mr. Tavenner. Have been named ?
Mr. Heciit. Before this committee.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Before this committee as members of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Hecht. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Out of a total of how many ?
Mr. Hecht. Thirty-six.
Mr. Jackson. On that point, if I may, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. Did you have any connections, professional con-
nections, in line with your job as agent in the studios who were known
to 3-0U to be members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hecht. You mean officials of the studios ?
Mr. Jackson. Officials or those with whom you dealt in your work
as an agent.
Mr. Hecht. No, sir.
Mr. Jackson. No one in the studios w^ho were known to be members
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hecht. No.
Mr. Jackson. Were you an actor's or writer's agent ?
Mr. Hecht. Mostly writer's agent.
Mr. Jackson. Then I will rephrase the question: No one with
whom you were called upon to discuss scripts in the studios, none of
these individuals were known to you to be members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Hecht. I believe Meta Reis became a story editor at Para-
mount Pictures, but I think this was much later. At any rate, I never
discussed party activities with her during the work and I never rep-
resented or tried to sell any material because it was written by a mem-
lier of the Communist Party.
Mr. Jackson. Was George Willner a member of your agency dur-
ing the time you were a member of the Goldstone Agency ?
Mr. Heciit. George Willner came to the agency sometime after,
sometime shortly before I went into the Army. George Willner,
incidentally, met me in the hall and said, "I understand you are going
to be a stool pigeon."
I want George Willner to know that he will not intimidate me in
any way by remarks and expressions of that kind.
Mr. Taatenner. When did that occur?
]\Ir. Hecht. In the luncheon recess.
Mr. Taatsnner. Wlien?
Mr. Hecht. Today.
Mr. Jackson. Here in the Federal Building?
Mr. Hecht. Here in the Federal Building.
Mr. Scherer. WTio said that ?
Mr. Hecht. George Willner.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 313
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of the members of
the committee who were not here at the time, George Willner was
brought before the committee and refused to testify on a previous
occasion.
Mr. SciiERER. On grounds it would incriminate him ?
Mr. Tavenner. On grounds it would tend to incriminate him. A
number of witnesses have identified him as having been a member of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Scherer. Is he here in the hearing room now ?
Mr. Tavenner. I do not know.
Mr. ]\IouLDER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. When he asked you the question or made the state-
ment as to whom you were going to turn stool pigeon on, what was he
referring to ?
Mr. Hecht. We carried the conversation no further. I imagine he
was referring to the fact that I was going to divulge the fact that I
was a member of the Communist Party and tell the committee all the
things I know about the Communist Party and all the people I knew
working in it.
Mr. Moulder. He was referring to your testimony as a witness
subpenaed here, the testimony you were about to give in this hearing.
Mr. Heciit. I only know what he said and I didn't question him
any further about it, Congressman, but I would deduce that is what
he was referring to.
Mr. Moulder. Was there anything else said ?
Mr. Heciit. No.
Mr. Moulder. How long were you in the United States Army ?
Mr. Hecht. Three years.
IVIr. Moulder. That would make your return from the service about
1945, I believe?
Mr. Hecht. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. After you returned from the service in the United
States Army how were you employed ?
Mr. Hecht. I went into the agency business by myself, or, rather,
in partnership with Louis Rantz, who had been working with the
Goldstone Agency since I was there.
Mr. Moulder. Have you reaffiliated w^ith the Communist Party
when you were discharged from the Army ?
Mr. Hecht. No ; I have never been to a meeting of the Communist
Party since I left the Communist Party in the early part of 1940.
Mr. Moulder. Has any effort been made on the part of any person
to recruit you again into the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hecht. No, there hasn't been. As a matter of fact, I wondered
why. The Communist Party evidently thought that I was not a good
Communist. As a matter of fact, Martin Berkeley, who identified me
and who has helped me recollect a number of things that have helped
me in my testimony today, remembers me as being a very poor Com-
munist. So I think that the party probably thought there wasn't much
that they could actually get from my being in the party.
Mr. Moulder. Have you represented known members of the Com-
munist Party since your return from your service in the Army ?
314 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Ml-. IIf.cht. I have never represented any member of the Commu-
nist Party because he was a member of the Connnunist Party. I have
represented known Communists. I represented a number that were
known to me as Communists; two, as a matter of fact. Frank Tuttle
and Rohmd Kil)bee. Kibbee is a man that I lived with wlien he first
came to Hollywood in 1939, and at that time he told me that he was
leavinjr the party.
Mr. Moulder. Since your return from the United States Army have
you knowin<rly employed any member of the Communist Party in
connection with your own work?
Mr, Hecht. I have not. I have never employed a member of the
Comnnniist Party because he was a member of the Communist Party.
I employed people purely and simply because I thou<rht they were
talented and the best suited to the work that I was looking for.
In December 1950 I made a flat policy with our company of not
hirinof any more Communists, investigatino; them and making sure
that we did not hire any more Communists, and since that time we
have carried this out.
Before that — I want to say again — I never hired anyone because
I knew he was a Communist, for that reason, but from that date we
investigated and made specifically sure as to that.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman?
]\f r. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask the witness why you declared that policy in
December 1950.
Mr. Heciit. At that time the Communist conspiracy became clear
to me.
]Mr. Doyle. What conspiracy ?
Mr. Heciit. The conspiracy of the Communist Party in this coun-
try with the Soviet Union and the So\'iet Union's aggressive actions
against this country throughout the world.
Mr. Doyle. What evidence did you get in December 1950 or before
that, which made you believe there was a Soviet conspiracy against
this country?
Mr. Hecht. Shortly before this the Korean war broke out.
Mr. Doyle. Wliat did that have to do with it?
Mr. Hecht. This showed me fully and clearly that you were either
in one cam}) or another. This is a policy, I might say. that I followed
with the studios.
"Mr. Doyle. Do you mean to tell me, in answer to my question, that
when you say you are either in one camp or another, that a Communist
camiot be in the American camp and still be a member of the American
Comnumist Party?
Mr. Hecht. I "think that's correct. I think you will agree with me
when I say that is so.
Mr. Doyle. I do agree with you. The fact is that I asked you a
question the way I do is not because I differ with you, but because I
Avas in Koiea a few months ago and I had that made manifest to me
by what I have seen with my own eyes.
Mr. Chairman, may I ask two more questions of this witness?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. What pro])els or compels you to come here todav and
tell not only your own experiences but to do what this man Willner
evidently criticized you for doing, becoming a stool pigeon, in his filthy
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 315
laiifriiage. That is wliat he called you, and when yon do o-ive the
names of known Connnnnists to this conmiittee it is helping us very
materially and it is a help to your country.
What got under your skin to make you do that? You are a noted
producer. I feel your answer to that question may help the public
and this committee very much to understand.
Mr. Heciit. I think it has become clear that Communists and people
associated with Comnninists are enemies of this country. We must
be alined Mith the forces of democracy and against comnnmism.
AVe can no longer straddle the fence. Today I wouldn't represent
a. Communist. I wouldn't hire one. Communism is a conspiracy and
the Communist Party in this country is a tool of the Soviet Union.
I didn't look forward to my appearance here today in a sense of en-
joying it. I am not a public speaker, but I am grateful for the op-
portunity of being allow-ed to testify. I think this committee renders
a valuable service in providing the forum for an ex-Communist to
state his present position clearly and firmly. There are many people
in this country similar to me, people who are not necessarily Com-
munists, but people who are left all the way to the center, and these
people, I believe, are gradually becoming more and more aware of the
.sinister ways of the Communist Party and the place where they be-
long. The}' need new forces to work with and new friends. That is
an important part of the anti-Communist program and I would like
to be a part of it.
Mr. Doyle. My last question, Mr. Chairman, is this:
We operate, or this committee operates under Public Law 601. A
part of that law passed by the Congress provides that this committee
in its work shall recommend to the United States Congress remedial
legislation in the field of subversive activities or propaganda. While
I realize that you, sir, are not to be considered an expert in that
field any more than we are, in view of the fact that our statutory
assignment as a congressional committee expressly says in the statute
(>01 that we shall recommend to Congress remedial legislation in this
field, have you any suggestion to us as a congressional committee of
any different or additional legislation at the national level, which we
ought to consider?
I know the ordinary legislation that is brought out is to outlaw the
Communist Party. Before you answer in any other way I would ask
you if you have any considered opinion on that subject; should the
Communist Party be outlawed or not?
Mr. Hecht. It seems to me it would be a good idea. I can't under-
stand why it hasn't been done before. There may be various reasons
for it that are not clear to me.
Mr. Doyle. Have you any other suggestions ?
Mr. Hecht. No, but I would like to think about it and I would like
to write you about it.
Mr. Doyle. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, we would welcome his sug-
gestion.
Mr. Velde. Certainly.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much.
Mr. Velde. Do you have anything further, Mr. Counsel?
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jackson. I have just one question.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
316 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Jacksox. The emphasis to this point has been upon those in
the theater, the Federal Theater, who were Communists or who fol-
lowed the Communist line, emphatic and vocal.
Can you fjive me any idea of any anti-Communists who were in
the Federal Theater, who were outspoken in their denunciation?
Mv. Hecht, No; I don't remember any in the Federal Theater.
I think at that time, if you remember the political climate then, to
be an outspoken anti-Communist durino: that period, I believe you
probably would have been called a Fascist.
Mr. Jackson. In that time and in this time as well. "WTiat was
the year, Mr. Hecht ?
Mr. Hecht. 1937. 1938, and 1939, during the Communist support
of the New Deal. The point is a little vague to me, but I think that
is probably so.
Mr. Jackson. Aside from the committee investigators your
coimsel and our counsel, the gentleman you spoke of a little while
ago who called you a stool pigeon, have you discussed this appearance
with any other person or persons?
Mr. PIecht. I told my wife about it.
Mr. Jackson. It is pretty hard to get down here, I imagine, without
doing that.
Mr. Hecht. She wouldn't let me go without ■
Mr. Jackson. But you have not discussed it with anyone else?
No effort has been made by anyone to dissuade you from appearing?
Mr. Hecht. No.
Mr. Jackson. And no promises have been made for your appear-
ance ?
Mr. Hecht. No.
Mr. Jackson. That's all.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. A number of times in your testimony, and, of course,
it appears consistently in the testimony of practically everv witness
before us who cooperates, we find the phrase "party line'^ and the
"shift of party line."
Then, a nioment ago, you frankly told us that you understood it
to be the implacable purpose of the Communists to destroy us, to
turn us over to the Soviet system.
I just want to be sure that this record does not have something
in it that might lead us to a wrong conclusion. When you talk about
a shift of the party line you do not mean that the Communist pur-
])ose to destroy us has shifted, but merely the Communist tactics to
achieve it, is that true ?
Mr. HEcirr. That is true. It takes a long time for things to become
clear.
Mr. Clardy. It finally became clear that was their purpose and
these shifts from time to time were merely shifts in tactics in their
efforts to achieve that objective.
Mr. Hecht. That is true,
Mr. SciiERER. Mr. Hecht, when Mr. Tavenner was asking 3^ou your
reasons for leaving the party, I believe you said, and I quote,' "became
disturbed and disillusioned by many of the facets of the party."
Mr. Hecht. Facets and practices, probably.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 317
Mr. SciiERER. Isn't it a fact, Mr. Hecht, that originally you felt
that the Communist Party was opposed to anti-Semitism and that
now you know it is violently anti-Semitic ?
Mr. Hecht. That is true.
Mr. ScHERER. Your experience indicates that what I have said is
true about the party?
Mr. Hecht. That is true.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. I have only one question. You made some reference
a while ago to a professional Communist. What is a professional
Communist ?
Mr. Hecht. I would say a professional Communist is someone
who works for the Communist Party and gets paid by the Communist
Party.
Mr. Moulder. A party organizer, and works for the party ?
Mr. Hecht. That is right.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. DoTLE. No further questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr, Frazier.
Mr. Frazier. No further questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel, is there anj- reason why this witness
should not be dismissed ?
Mr. Tavenner. No.
Mr. Velde. The Chair desires to thank the witness for his ap-
pearance here, adding considerable knowledge to the great fund ob-
tained by this committee, and disseminated throughout the country.
It has been a privilege to hear you speak frankly on the issue of
communism, and give us the benefit of your beliefs. The witness is
hereby dismissed.
Mr. Velde, Your next witness.
Mr. TA^'EN^^ER. Mr. Edward Huebsch.
Mr, Velde. Will you stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before this
committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. HuEBSCH. I do.
Mr. Velde. Let the record show at this point that present are Mr.
Jackson, Mr. Clardy, Mr. Scherer, Mr. Moulder, Mr. Doyle, Mr.
Frazier, and the chairman, Mr, Velde.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD HUEBSCH, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat is your name, please, sir?
Mr. HuEBSCH, Edward Huebsch,
Mr. Ta%'enner. Are you represented b}/ counsel ?
Mr. Huebsch, I am, sir.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Will counsel please identify himself.
Mr. Esterman. I am William B. Est^rman, counsel for the witness.
I have a brief motion to make, which I can discuss with Mr. Tavenner.
I will address myself very briefly to the committee.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Esterman, I think you have previously represented
witnesses before this committee and are aware of the rules of the
committee with reference to counsel.
318 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. EsTKRMAx. It has to do witli the TV proceodings.
Mr. Velde. May I tell you a^aiii you are permitted to address mo-
tions in writing to the committee.
Mr. EsTERMAN. We are in a situation
Mr. Veij)e. You are not permitted to make any voluntary state-
ments. You are pei-mitted to confer with your own client at all times.
Mr. Esteumax. I have conferred with him.
Mv. Velde. Do you have a motion to submit in writing?
Mr. P]s'iT,RMAX. No. I have submitted it in writing. But I have
discussed the matter with your own counsel, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Esterman, have you a motion to submit in writing?
Mr. Esti<:rmax. I have a motion which I have submitted in writing
concerning which I have had no reply. I have discussed this with
Mr. Tavenner and told him I will make this motion. I am an attorney
at law and I have a right to make this motion.
Mr. Velde. The Chair orders that any voluntary statement on the
part of counsel will be stricken from the record.
I will ask you, Mr. Counsel, if you have received a written motion
of any kind.
Mr. Tavexner. This is the first intimation I have had of a written
motion.
Mr. Estermax. I discussed an oral motion which concerns the tele-
vision
Mr. Velde. These voluntary statements and remarks from counsel
will be stricken from the record. You know the rules of this com-
mittee. You have a written motion to submit? If so, you will trans-
mit it to the chairman.
Mr. Estermax. May we have a response to the written motion we
have filed by telegram, a copy of which I have here ?
Mr. Taa'enxer. The committee will be in recess for 5 minutes to
consider this motion.
(Short recess was taken.)
Mr. Velde. The meeting will be in order.
May the record show that present at this point are Mr. Jackson,
Mr. C'lardy, Mr. Scherer, Mr. Moulder, Mr. Doyle, Mr. P'razier, and the
chairman, Mr. Velde.
For the record, the committee has considered the written motion
submitted and now the Chair will ask the witness whether the witness
concurs and agrees with the motion presented by his counsel.
Mr. HuEnscir. I do so concur, basing myself on the written opinion
in the Federal District Court of Wasliington, D. C, which held that
television broadcast facilities violate the atmosphere of a calm
judicial legislative hearing. Not that I myself object to being tele-
vised, but I object to the legislative heariugs of the United States
Congress being so abused.
Mr. Velde. Accordingly, the Avitness is excused until Wednesday
mo] iiing at 10 o'clock, at which time you will
Mr. Estermax. May we ask
Mr. Velde. The witness is excused and so is his counsel.
Before calling the next witness, the Chair would like to state that
it is the pur]iose of the connnittee to disseminate the results of these
hearings to the ])ul)lic, in order that we might fairly treat our public
information services, the news, the newsreel, the still photo camera as
well as television and the radio.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 319
However, this witness has requested that all television apparatus
be removed from the room before he will testify. I hope that he
will testify when the television apparatus is removed from the room
next Wednesday mornino; at 10 o'clock.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Philip Eastman.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this com-
mittee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
TESTIMONY OF PHILIP DEY EASTMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, MORRIS E. COHN
Mr. Eastman. I do. I would like to make a request I not be
televised.
Mr. Velde. Will the television cameras desist for just a moment,
please.
Mr. Eastman. I will also like to request that the photographers
not take my picture during my testimony.
Mr. Velde. That request will be granted.
I want to ask the witness what he referred to by not being televised.
Do you have any objection to the television equipment being in the
I'oom ?
Mr. Eastman. I object to my voice and picture being transmitted
over the air. I have no objection to the apparatus being in the room.
I do object to the act of television.
Mr. Velde. But you do have objection to the sound being trans-
mitted through the microphone, the sound of your voice over television?
Mr. Eastman. May I talk to counsel for a moment, please?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
(At this point, 4:10 p. m., Mr. Eastman conferred with Mr.
Morris B. Cohn. )
Mr. Eastman. I do object to my voice and to my picture going over
the air. .
Mr. Velde. Does that also include the radio, Mr. Witness ?
Mr. Eastman. Yes.
Mr. Velde. You have objection to the radio, too?
Mr. Eastman. Yes.
Mr. Velde. As I understand it, also to being photographed while
you are giving your testimony ?
Mr. Eastman. During testimony; I have no objection to being
photographed before or afterward. May I make this clear: This
will result in my testimony being postponed. I would prefer to go
on today, giving my testimony today.
Mr. Velde. That is just about what the chairman was going to do,
postpone it until Wednesday morning. However, may I ask this
question: Have you any objection to testifying without the tele-
vision cameras being turned on you or any part of your body at any
time during the procedure of the hearing?
Mr. Eastman. I don't want to be televised.
Mr. Velde. To the still ])hotographers, will you take your pictures
now, before the witness begins to testify? The same is true with re-
spect to the movie cameras, please.
320 COMMTJNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. DoYUE. May I ask this question of the witness then : As I under-
stand it, you waive your objections to everything excepting the matter
of the television cameras being directed on you, and you object to
that, in your testimony?
Mr. Eastman. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. You liave no objection to television pictures being
made of everything else in the room, have you ?
Mr. Eastman. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. You don't object to the committee being televised
then, I take it.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Eastman. Mv name is Philip l)ey Eastman.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell it, please.
Mr. Eastman. P-h-i-1-i-p D-e-y E-a-s-t-m-a-n.
Mr. Taa^nner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. SciiERER. I can't hear.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you raise your voice a little, please, Mr. East-
man? Are you represented by counsel, Mr. Eastman?
Mr. Eastman. I am.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record.
Mr. CoHN. My name is Morris E. Cohn.
Mr. Tavenner. Of Los Angeles ?
Mr. CoHN. Yes.
Mr. Ta\tenner. When and where were you bom, Mr. Eastman ?
Mr. Eastman. I was born in Massachusetts in 1909.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Eastman. I reside in Los Angeles, city of Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles?
Mr. Eastman. Approximately 15 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cational training has been?
Mr. Eastman. After graduating from college I attended art school
in New York City for 3 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat art school ?
Mr. Eastman. It was the National Academy of Design. Since that
time I have educated myself in the fields of art. music, and literature.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation?
Mr. Eastman. I am an artist and writer.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your em-
ployment has been since the completion of your art course in New
York?
Mr. Eastman. May I confer for a moment with my law^^er?
(At this point, 4 : 15 p. m., Mr. Eastman conferred with Mr. Cohn.)
Mr. Eastman. Since 1936 and up to about a year ago I have been
more or less steadily employed, except for occasional layoffs, in the
field of animated motion pictures, that is, animated cartoons.
This was interrupted for about 21^ years by my service in the Army.
And at present I am a free-lance writer and artist. I do not work
for any particular — —
Mr. Tavenner. Will you speak a little louder, please.
Mr. Eastman. I am trying to, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Ta\t5NNer. For whom?
Mr. CoHN. Pardon me just one moment, please.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 321
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
(At this point, 4:17 p. m., Mr. Colin conferred with Mr. East-
man.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Eastman, where have you been employed as
an animated cartoonist, if that is the correct description of your
work?
Mr. Eastman. Well, there are many different kinds of jobs in the
animated-cartoon field. You mean as a writer and artist?
Mr. Tavenner. In whatever capacity you were employed.
Mr. Eastman. I worked for about 5 years — I think the first 5 years
of my work was at the Walt Disney Studios.
Mr. Tavenner. That would be over what period of time ?
Mr. Eastman. Roughly from 1936 to 1941. I am not exactly sure
of the date because I was
Mr. Tavenner. A period of 5 years, did you say ?
Mr. Eastman. Approximately. Now^, this was quite a while ago
and I can't remember the details too accurately.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in that work for any other com-
pany other than the Disney Co. ?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. Let's see if I can remember the continuity
of my employment. After leaving the Disney Studio, and a brief
period of unemployment, I worked for what was then the Leon
Schlesinger Studios. He doesn't have that name any longer. I be-
lieve it is called Warner Bros. Cartoons now.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time did you work for Leon
Schlesinger ?
Mr. Eastman. I believe that was — well, it would be from some
time in the latter part of 1941 to the time that I went into the Army,
and that was — I can't remember exactly. I think it was in 1942 or
1943—1942, I think.
Mr. Tavenner. 1942?
Mr. Eastman. I am not sure. I will have to look at my induction
card.
Mr. Tavenner. When you were employed by the Disney Co. and
also by Leon Schlesinger, did you do work which was generally
termed the work of a sketch artist ?
Mr. Eastman. During part of the time that I was at the Disney
Studio I worked as a sketch artist.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the difference between a sketch artist and
story-board sketch artist, or is there any difference ?
Mr. Eastman. It is about the same. I would say it was almost
identical.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Bernyce Polifka Fleury testified in executive
session before this committee, Mr. Eastman, September 10, 1951. She
admitted that she had been a member of the Communist Party.
I want to read to you a part of her testimony regarding an incident,
as a basis for asking you several questions.
Mrs. Fleury was asked the question of what they discussed in these
Communist Party meetings. Her reply was this :
We talked mainly about how we could improve the animation business. And
also how the artists could contribute more to the — I guess you would call it — and
I am guessing on this — social welfare or social something or other of the people.
As an example, Ed Biberman had very decided ideas about art. 1 have de-
cided ideas about art. We did not agree at any time.
322 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Do you recall attending a meeting at which there was a substantial
disagreement between Ed Biberman and Mrs. Fleui-y on the subject of
art?
Mr. Eastman. I am not going to answer your question, and I am
going to give you the reasons. They are contained in portion of the
Constitution that is dedicated to the protection of the rights of indi-
viduals.
My first reason for not answering your question is that your question
invades the rights under that portion of the Constitution wliich guar-
antees me freedom of speech and the freedom to associate with whom
1 please, and also the freedom of conscience.
The second reason why I decline to answer is that I consider that
you are bringing me here under subpena to an unreasonable search
and attempt to seize the contents of my mind.
I also have an objection to make on the fact that, in a sense, the
atmosphere here is one of a trial, and that you have accepted the testi-
mony of witnesses without permitting me to bring witnesses of my
own.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Witness, the conunittee is not interested in your
opinions of the membership or of the committee, as a whole.
We are asking you a question, purely and simply to obtain facts and
information.
The Chair would appreciate it, and the committee would appre-
ciate it very much, if you would answer or decline to answer for legal
means, and state your legal grounds.
Mr. Eastman. I am trying to state my legal reasons, and I believe
all the reasons I am stating are valid and legal reasons. I am not an
attorney myself.
Mr. Velde. How much longer do you intend to proceed with your
legal reasons ?
Mr. Eastman. It won't take very long, maybe 3 minutes.
Mr. Velde. Proceed. We will give you just 3 minutes.
Mr. Eastman. I also object^ — this is my fourth ground — on the
ground that I feel this committee has imposed cruel and unusual pun-
ishments upon me in keeping me under subpena for the better part
of a year.
My last and final ground for declining to answer is because 161
years ago a woman named Mary Bradbury in Southboro. Mass. —
Mar}' Bradbury happens to be my great, great, great, great, great,
great grandmother, and she was convicted of consorting with the
devil, despite tlie fact that 117 of her neighbors testified that she was
a good and ])i()us woman.
Because J believe she would not have been convicted of witchcraft
had she had tlie privilege of the fifth amendment available to her, to
the ])rivilege against self-incrimination. T not only do stand on my
l)rivilege, but I am proud to stand on it.
Ml". Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavennp:r. Continuing with the testimony of Mrs. Fleury,
we find that she was asked this question by Mr. Wheeler:
What were IMr. Biberinan's ideas about art?
To which Mrs. Fleury replied :
Well, this is, sfi'ansely enonsli. heli(>ve it or not. our disagreemeuts on our talk
was not concerned with political issues as much as it was with the form of what
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 323
the art would take. In other words, in i)aluting a picture, as far as I am con-
cerned, it does not nial^e it a better picture because it is a poor little baby than
if it is a big painting of an aristocratic woman.
In other words, it is the form that is the important thing to my way of think-
ing, as far as painting is concerned. That was the biggest disagreement, one of
the big disagreements that Ed Biberman and I had.
In other words, he felt that painting was a documentary thing and I felt it
was not a documentary thing, that that was under the jurisdiction of photogra-
pher, where it would be true documentary.
Mr. Jackson. Was his feeling that a painting should cari*y a social message
rather than simi)ly the abstract conception of the art?
Mrs. Fleiuy. Yes. and I felt it was more important in the design in the
abstract aspect of art.
Mrs. FleiiiT testified ;is to tltat disajxreemeiit that existed on the
subject of art with Ed Bibeinian. and which led eventually to her get-
ting out of the Communist Party, and Mrs. Fleury also testified as
follows
Mr. VEr.DE. Mr. Tavenner. before proceeding, the committee is
about to ijecess until tomorrow. Do you have further questions to
ask this witness?
Mr. Tam2Nnek. Just two or three further questions to ask this
witness.
Mr. Velde. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Fleury then identified vou as a member of
this same group of the Communist Party, of which she was a member.
In the course of describing you, she said :
He is what was called a sketch artist, storyboard sketch artist.
Mr. Jacksox. Employed where, do you recall?
Mrs. P^LEURY.* He was, whether at that time he was at Disney or whether he
was at Leon Schlesinger, which is now Warner Bros. Cartoons, I don't recall.
Now, was Mrs. Fleury truthful in her statement that you were a
member of this group ? Did she identify you properly and truthfully
as a member of the group of the Communist Party of which she was a
member ?
Mr. Eastman. Mr. Tavenner, you are asking me the same kind of a
question, and I decline to answer your question on all the grounds
which I have stated a few moments ago.
Mr. ScHERER. Does that include that the anirvver you might make
might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Eastman. I am not a lawyer, sir, but I think you know that I
would not be required to give the reasons why I am standing on that
portion of the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHEKER. Are you standing on the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Eastman. I think I made it very clear I was not only stand-
ing on the fifth amendment, but four other amendments to our
C\)nstitution.
Ml'. ScHERER. The fifth amendment, nameh\ that your answer
would tend to incriminate you.
Mr. Moulder. I understand the witness declines to answer for the
same reasons stated awhile ago.
Mr. Eastman. 1 think you understand me.
Mr. Tavenner. .Vre you now a member of the Communist Party (
Mr. I-Castman. You are asking me the same kind of a question,
and I decline to answer on all of the previously stated giounds.
Mr. TvvENNER. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
324 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Eastman. Mr. Tavenner, this is the same kind of a question,
and I am not jjoing to answer it. I will state my grounds over again,
unless agreeable that I say that I stand on all of the gi'ounds on which
1 previously stood.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Do any of the members of the connnittee have any
further questions ?
Mr. Jackson. I have one observation, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. With respect to tlie case of Mary Bradbury, to which
the witness referred, the only difference between her situation and the
situation of the witness today is that there were no witches in Salem.
There have been a number of Communists identified in Los Angeles.
Mr. Velde. That is a very good observation, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Counsel, is there any reason why this witness should not be
excused ?
Mr. Ta\'enner. No, sir ; there is not.
Mr. Velde. If not, the witness may be excused.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I ask the unanimous consent of the
committee to insert in the record of the hearings at this point the
action taken by the board of trustees of the Los Aiigeles Bar Associa-
tion at its meeting on February 17, 1953.
I might add that the action taken by the bar association grew
out of the activities of some of the witnesses who appeared before the
committee in hearings here last September.
Mr. Velde. And the counsel ?
Mr. Jackson. The witnesses and their counsel, and in several in-
stances, at least, the witnesses themselves were members of the legal
profession.
Mr. Velde. Would you care to read it in the record ?
Mr. Jackson. The substance of the report is that it represents some
changes in section 6068 of the Business and Professional Code, and
the principal change is to point out that it is the duty of an attorney
"(a) to support the Constitution and laws of the United States and
of this State," and (b), "to maintain the respect due to the courts of
justice and judicial officers, and to refrain from disrespectful, offen-
sive, or disorderly conduct during the course of hearings before law-
fully constituted legislative, executive, and administrative bodies,
boards, committees, or officers."
(The aforementioned document is in words and figures as follows :)
The Board of Trustees of the Los Angeles Bar Association at its meeting on
February 17, 1953, considered tlie report of the committee headed by Mr. Franl£
B. Belcher recommending a revision of section 6068 of the Business and Profes-
sions Code. That committee proposed that the section be amended to read as
follows (principal changes are italicized) :
"6068. Duties of an attorney.
"The following are the duties of an attorney :
''Subparuf/raphs (a), (ft), and (c) shall be duties of an attorney whether in
the course of his relation as an attorney or otherwise:
"(a) To support the Constitution and law of the United States and of this
State.
"(b) To maintain the i-espect due to the courts of justice and judicial oflicers,
legislative bodies and their committees, adininistrative bodies and administrative
and executive officers of the United States, any of the several States or Terri-
tories or any political subdivision thereof.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 325
"(c) Never to seek to mislead by an artifice or false statement of fact or law
a court of justice or judicial otiicer, legislative body or its committee, an admin-
istrative body, or an administrative or executive officer of the Uirited States, or
of any of the several States or Territories, or any political subdivision thereof.
"(d) To employ for the purpose of maintaining the causes confided to him
such means only as are consistent with the truth.
'•(e) To counsel or maintain such actions, proceedings or defenses only as
appear to him legal or just, except the defense of a person charged with a public
offense.
"(f) To maintain inviolate the confidence, and at every peril to himself to
preserve the secrets, of his client.
"(g) To abstain from all offensive personality, and to advance no fact prejudi-
cial to tlie honor or reputation of a party or witness, unless required by the
justice of the cause witli which he is charged.
"(h) Not to encourage either the commencement or the continuance of an
action or proceeding from any corrupt motive of passion or interest.
"(i) Never to i-ejeet, for any consideration personal to himself, the cause of
the defenseless or the oppressed."
The report specifically referred to the problems raised by the conduct of cer-
tain lawyers in the cases of People v. Foster, United States v. Bridges et al., and
at the hearings at Los Angeles called by the Committee on Un-American Activities
of the House <»f Hepresentatives. The board was not unmindful of these problems
and endorsed generally the views expressed in the committee's report. Never-
theless, the board believed that the proposed amendments to section 6068 are
too sweeping, and might tend unduly to limit the right of free speech to which
lawyers are entitled along with other citizens.
The basic evil to be correotnd is the offensive and sometimes disorderly behavior
of a very small number of attorneys in the course of certain trials and certain
public hearings before legislative or administrative bodies. So far as court
trials are concerned, it is agreed that the existing injunction "to maintain the
respect due the courts of justice and judicial officers" sufficiently covers the
situation. Courts and judicial officers are entitled to respect from all members
of the bar. The respect due them is not limited to the time that they are con-
ducting hearings, nor is the corresponding duty of the attorney limited to his
behavior during court appearances. In the view of the board, there was some
risk that the proposed legislation would cast doubt upon the right of an attorney,
in common with any other citizen, to speak or write his opinions freely of the
legislative, the executive, and numerous administrative officers, boards, and
committees.
The board also was of the view that the language of the section should as far
as possible l)e left in broad general terms, rather than specifically to refer to
the different jurisdictions in reference to various legislative bodies, etc.
The board accordingly approved the report of the committee but recommended
that in lieu of the text suggested by the committee, the section be amended to
read as follows :
"60G8. Duties of an attorney.
"It is the duty of an attorney:
"(a) To support tlie Constitution and laws of the United States and of this
State.
"(I)) To maintain the respect due to the courts of justice and judicial officers,
and to refrain from disrespectful, offensive or disorderly conduct during the
course of hearings before lawfully constituted legislatirc, executive and ad-
ministrative bodies, boards, cotnmittees or officers.
"(c) Never to seek to mislead by an artifice or false statement of fact or law
a court of justice or judicial officers, or a legislative, executive, or administrative
body, board, committee, or officer.
"(d) To employ for the purpose of maintaining the caiises confided to him
such means only as are consistent with the truth.
"(e) To counsel or maintain such actions, proceedings or defenses only as
appear to him legal or just, except the defense of- a person charged with a
public offense.
"(f) To maintain inviolate the confidence, and at every peril to himself pre
serve tlie secrets, of his client.
"(g) To abstain from all offensive personality, and to advance no fact prej-
udicial to the honor or reputation of a party or witness, unless required to by
the justice of the cause with which he is charged.
31747— 53— pt. 1 5
4
■ I
326 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
"(h) Not to encourage either the commencement or the continuance of an
action or proceedings from any corrupt motive of passion or interest.
"(i) Never to reject, for any consideration personal to himself, the cause of
the defenseless or the oppressed."
Mr. Velde. The committee "will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock
tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 4: 30 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 10 a. m.,
Tuesday, March 24, 1953.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES AREA— Part 1
TUESDAY, MARCH 24, 1953
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
PUBLIC hearing
The. Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to ad-
journment, at 10 : 10 a. m., in room 518, Federal Building, Hon. Harold
H. Velde (chairman), presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman), Donald L. Jackson, Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer,
Francis E. Walter, Morgan M. Moulder, Clyde Doyle, and James B.
Frazier, Jr.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Louis J.
Russell, chief investigator; Thomas W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk;
Rapliael I. Nixon, director of research ; and William A. Wlieeler, in-
vestigator.
Mr. Velde. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Marshall. I request permission to address the committee.
Mr. Velde. The permission will be refused. At the proper time
you will be allowed to.
Let the record show present are Mr. Jackson, Mr. Clardy, Mr.
Scherer, Mr. Walter, Mr. Moulder, Mr. Doyle, Mr. Frazier, and the
chairman, Mr. Velde, a quorum and the full committee.
Mr. Counsel, do you have a witness?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Mr. Julian Gordon.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are to give before this committee,
do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gordon. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JULIAN GORDON
Mr. Ta\^nner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Gordon. Julian Gordon.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you represented or accompanied here by
counsel ?
Mr. Gordon. No; I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. It has been the practice of the committee to permit
a witness to consult with counsel at any time he may desire during
the course of his testimony, and whether or not counsel is with you or
not, you still have that right.
Mr. Gordon. I have no counsel.
327
328 COMMUNIST ACTIMTIKS J.\ TIIK LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavkn-xek. When and Avhere were you bom, Mr, Gordon?
Mr. Gordon. I was born in Boston in April of 1909.
Mr. Tavenner. What has your previous educational training been,
that is, your formal educational training.
Mr. Gordon. I graduated at Harvard in the class of 1930. and then
went abroad for graduate study at Cambridge University in England.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you attend scTiool in England^
Mr. Gordon. In 1931.
Mr. Ta\t3nner. What is your present occupation?
Mr. GoitDON. I make the stock and advertising accessories for an
independent small motion-picture producer.
Mr. Ta\t2nner. Will you outline briefly for the committee what
your employment has been since the completion of your formal edu-
cation?
Mr. Gordon. After I finished at Cambridge University I went to
the Bank for International Settlements at Balk. Switzerland, the
World Bank, where I was to work with Leon Frazier. the head of the
bank. This was soon after President Hoover declared the mora-
torium on the payment of war reparations on Germany of the Allied
Powders. There was very little to do at the bank and I soon left,
coming to this country.
I worked at the newspapers in Los Angeles, the Examiner, the
Times, and then for the Chamber of Commerce of Los xVngeles,
I became ill for a year or so, and after that did some teaching in pri-
vate schools.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you begin in that work ?
Mr. Gordon. I taught for a year in a preparatory school in 19-10
and 1941. Soon after 1941 I went to work for the Technicolor Lab-
oratory as a technician for several years.
In 1947 1 went to France for a year.
Mr. Ta%tenner. How long did you work in Technicolor Labora-
tories, specificallv between what dates, that is, approximate dates?
Mr. Gordon. From 1941 to 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Then I understand you went to France ?
Mr. Gordon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the nature of your employment there?
Mr. Gordon. I worked as a technician on a motion picture.
Mr. Tavenner. For whom did you work ?
Mr. Gordon, For the Bunin organization that made Alice in
Wonderland.
Mr. Tavenner. What was tlie name of the organization ?
Mr. Gordon. Bunin.
Mr. Tavenner. For whom did you work prior to accepting the posi-
tion in France?
Mr. Gordon. In Technicolor.
Mr. Tavenner. What company ?
Mr. Gordon. The Technicolor Motion Picture Co.
Mr. Tavenner. In Hollywood ?
Mr. Gordon. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. T^^ien did you return to this country ?
Mr. Gordon. In 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. And what was your employment after your return?
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point, 10: 19 a. m.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 329
Mr. (lORDOx. I taught for a brief -while at a boys' military school,
and then taught for a coii])le of years at the Berlitz School of
I^anouages.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Mr. (Gordon, the committee has information through
sworn testimony indicating you have been a member of the Communist
I^arty, and it also has information indicating that you left the Com-
munist Party approximately in 1947.
It is my desire to ask you questions relating to your experiences in
the Communist Party and your knowledge of it, if you were a mem-
ber, and I call upon you to cooperate with the committee in answer-
ing these questions.
First of all, I would like to call to your attention that by a sworn
statement made by Mr. Lou Rosser, who had stated that he himself
had been a member of the Communist Party, you were identified as
having been a member of the Communist Party. Mr. Max Silver, a
former high functionary of the Communist Party in Los Angeles
County, testified before this committee on January 24, 1952, in execu-
tive session, and when he was asked to identify persons known to him
to liave been members of the Communist Party, he responded in this
fashion :
Julian Gordon, the husband of Emily Gordon, a toaoher. and later was employed
in the movie industry in Technicolor as a technician, was involved in the Holly-
wood strike and was a victim of that strike. He lost his opportunity to work
either in the industry or at his teaching profession. Later went to Paris with
some group to make a movie. I don't know which one it was.
I would like to ask you first whether the identification of you by
Mr. Rosser as having been a member of the Communist Party, or the
identification by Mr. Max Silver are correct, or whether either is in
error or false in any particular.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson reentered the hearing room at
this point, 10 : 23 a. m.)
Mr. Gordon. That identification is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. When did vou become a member of tlie Communist
Party ?
Mr. Gordon. In 1939 ; September.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee the circumstances under
which you became a member?
Mr. Gordon. I thought it was the best way to end war and poverty.
I remained a member, as your information tells you, until, say, 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee the circumstances
under which you left the party ?
Mr. Gordon. I lost my belief.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, will you elaborate on that? What do you
mean by saying that you lost your belief?
Mr. Gordon. It struck me there were other forces that were more
important.
Mr. Tavenner. Well now, I am sorry, but I do not quite understand
what you mean. You say that you lost your beliefs. What beliefs
were you referring to?
Mr. Gordon. That this was the way to achieve the purposes for
which I originally joined the party.
Mr. Tavenner. What was it that caused you to lose those beliefs?
Well, may I put the question this way : Did you have any experiences
330 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
within the party which stand out in your memory as being mile-
stones in your decision to renounce the party or to get out of it, tliat
is, the Communist Party ?
Mr. Gordon. Perhaps I should tell you a little of my party history.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; I would certainly want to know that.
Mr. Gordon. In 1944 I helped to form the Hollywood Communist
Club. I became the president of that club.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the club?
Mr. Gordon. The Hollywood Conununist Club. I helped to form
that club. I was its president for a year and a half until the club
was broken up. It was shortly thereafter, with the end of the war,
that I left the party.
Mr. Ta\'enner. What was the cause of that party breaking up?
Mr. Gordon. The policy of the party had changed. That was
basically the reason.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Well, in what respect had it changed ?
Mr. Gordon. There were no longer to be community clubs, but
smaller groups, principally for the protection of the membership.
Mr. Tav^enner. Well, the mere changing of the number of persons
in a group couldn't have been such an important change in policy
to have affected the existence of the club, could it ?
Mr. Gordon. Yes. Instead of meeting in a large open hall, they
then in smaller groups met in homes.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, the party was going underground
at that time ; is that in substance what you mean ?
Mr. Gordon. The belief was that the membership would be better
protected and would not be so open to exposure if they did not meet
in large open public halls.
Mr. Tavtcnner. And that change in policy led to the end of the
Communist group that you were a member of? Is that what you
mean?
Mr. Gordon. Led to the end of the Hollywood Communist Club.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, then, the dissolution of that club was nothing
more than a practical realinement of the organizational structure of
the party ; there was nothing basically different in the operation of
the party after that than there was before, other than that for security
reasons you were to meet in small groups.
Mr. Gordon. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, now, what I am getting at is this : I wanted
to know basically what the reason is for your decision to terminate your
relationship with the Communist Party, and you started, I thought,
to tell me that by relating your experience in the party, but I do not
believe that what you just told me is responsive to that inquiry.
However, if there is anything else you desire to say about that, why,
I do not want to cut you off*. My inquiiy at the moment is to find out
what occurred to cause you to lose the beliefs which you said you
formerly had; and, if there was an experience that you had in the
Communist Party that would be helpful to this committee in under-
standing why you left the party, we would like to know it.
Possibly I can refresh your recollection as to one instance.
Mr. Gordon. The basic reason was the release of atomic energy.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you explain that, please?
Mr. Gordon. I came to the conclusion that there was no longer any
reason for the hatred between the two sides, and that I would do no
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 331
more to increase the hatred because the reason for it had disappeared
with the discovei-y of atomic energy, that men could now produce
enough for alL
Mr. Tavenner. Now, let me recall to your mind an incident which
was the subject of testimony on the part of Dr. Louise Light. Prob-
ably you have read this from the testimony.
At the outset I want to say to you that I am not going to abuse the
confidential privilege between husband and wife, but I want to refer
to this incident to see whether it had any part in your decision.
When Dr. Light was on the witness stand at a hearing conducted
in Washington, January 21, 1952, I asked her this question:
Were any directions given by the Communist Party as to preference in employ-
ment of nurses or employees, office employees of the doctors?
Dr. Light. Yes ; I had an experience myself where I had employed a girl and
she had been in my office perhaps a week and a half or so, who was previously a
party member, who had dropped out of the party because of lack of interest. They
came to me and told me that — they didn't ask me, they told me would I discharge
this girl because of the fact that she was no longer a party person ; she was under
suspicion. They had no specific proof, because I knew this girl very well, and
that they could supply someone in my office who would be much more suitable.
Of course, I disagreed with them very strongly.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the person employed by you?
Dr. Light. The name was Emily Gordon.
Mr. Tavenner. Emily Gordon?
Dr. Light. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You said they came to you.
Dr. Light. Well, a committee of two of the professional sects. The one who
did the talking with me was a Dr. Max Schoen, a dentist.
Did that incident have any part to play in your decision or had
you made your decision prior to that time ?
Mr. Gordon. My decision was made prior to that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of any other instances in which the
Communist Party organization within the professions, either medical
or legal, exercised that kind of dictation to its members; that is, deter-
mine who should be employed and who should not be ?
Mr. Gordon. I am sorry, I cannot answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien you say you are sorry you cannot answer, you
mean to indicate there were such instances but you do not desire to
speak of it? Because, if it is a matter that relates to your wife, I
do not want to ask you about it.
Mr. Gordon. It has nothing to do with my wife.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, do you know of any other instance when that
was attempted or when it was done ?
Mr. Gordon. I am sorry ; I will not answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. May I ask upon what ground your refusal to answer
that question is based ?
Mr. Gordon. Tlie decision I arrived at 7 years ago that I would do
nothing to add to the hatred between the two sides, because there is
no longer any reason for that hatred, since with atomic energy men
can now produce enough for all.
Mr. Scherer. When you say "two sides," would you clarify that
statement ?
Mr. Gordon. The United States and the Soviet Union.
Mr. Tavenner. When you joined the Communist Party in 1939,
how many composed the cell or group to which you were assigned?
Was it a large group or a small group ?
332 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THK LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Gordon. I am sorry; I will not answer tliis kind of question,
Mr. Tavenner. How many difTerent groups of the Communist
Party were you a member of between 1930 and the time you left the
party ?
Mr. Gordon. No.
Mr. Ta\'enner. What is your answer?
Mr. Gordon. The same. I will not answer this kind of question.
Mr. Jackson. JNIr. ChaiiTnan
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson (continuing) . I ask the witness be directed to answer.
]Mr. Velde. Yes; the Chair feels that is a legitimate question. I
believe that you could be of great help to this committee if you would
answer these questions. Of course, I might advise you, too, that you
are under oath and that you do have a right, of course, to refuse to
answer questions.
But, in order to make it impossible or improbable that you might
possibly be cited for contempt, you must state your refusal to answer
on a legal ground, a constitutional ground.
With those instructions in mind, I now direct that you answer the
last question that was asked of you.
Mr. Gordon. I have respect for the authority of this committee, but
again I must refuse,
Mr. Walter. May I ask a question at this point, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Walter.
Mr. Walter. You say you left the Communist Party when the
physical structure changed from large units to small units, and I
believe you said the small unit system was erected for the protection
of members. Will you explain what you meant by that?
Mr. Gordon. As the situation changed from the wartime coopera-
tion with communism to the conflict with them, increased protection
for the membership seemed advisable.
Mr. Walter. Protection from what ?
Mr. Gordon. Exposure.
Mr. Walter. Exposure? Why were they fearful of exposure?
Mr. Gordon, Mostly for their jobs.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question there, please,
following Mr. Walter's question?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Well, at this period in your expei'iencc — let's see. what
year was that ? That was in 1944, 1 think you said.
Mr. Gordon. 1945, the latter part.
jNIr. Doyle. You helped form the Communii-t Club of ITollvwood
in 1944?
Mr. Gordon. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. And it dissolved in 1945 ?
Mr. Gordon. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. And when it dissolved you Avei-e still president at the
time. You said vou served for a vear and a half, I think, until it
began meeting in private homes.
lyfr. Gordon. The early part of 1944 until the latter part of 1945.
Mr. Doyle. At that time was it the practice to discharge folks be-
cause they were members of the Comnumist Party, if that was kiu)wn?
Was that vour knowledge of the local situation in 1945 ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 333
Mr. Gordon. It was beginning to take place.
Mr. Doyle. In the entertainment field '(
Mr. Gordon. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Or the field in which yon were an expert^ Was it
beginning to be the practice in that field of activity in 1945?
Mr. Gordon. It was beginning to take place.
Mr. Doyle. I think your exact language was, "There was belief
that the members would not be so open to exposure." That is the
wording I wrote down as you used it. I tliink you used those exact
words.
Well now, was the exposure you were afraid of the exposure of
membership in the Communist Party, because at that time, even, it
would be likely to make you lose employment or make the Commu-
nists lose employment if it was known they w^ere Communists?
Mr. Gordon. It was felt that was likely.
Mr. Doyle. AVhat was there about Communist Party membership
in the Los Angeles area in 1945 that was so in disrepute in 1945 that
made people lose their jobs, or attempt to ^ See what I am getting at?
I am not in disrespect, sir, of your considered reasons. I notice you
said you have respect for the authority of this committee. I appre-
ciate your saying that, because some people do not, even though we
are a constituted committee of the United States Congress.
It is rather refreshing to have a man come, without the aid of
private counsel by his side, and state openly he has respect for this
committee.
^AHiat was there about the Communist Party membership in the
Los Angeles area in 1945 that made them w^ant to keep unknown as
Communists ^
Let me ask you this way: Without asking yon now who had been
discharged, if any<jne, on account of Connnunist Party membership in
1945, at the time you relate, had there been anyone discharged from
the entertainment field because of Communist Party membership, to
vour knowledge ^ You have stated that that was
Mr. Walter. Mr. Doyle, he has five questions before him now.
Mr. Doyle. I am trving to
Mr. Walter. I suggest he be permitted to answer them before you
ask any more.
Mr. Doyle. I am trying to stay in the field of cooperating with the
witness, to give him every chance in the world to give us helpful
answers, if he will.
Mr. Gordon. To the best of my memory, that was the case.
Mr. Doyle. There had been someone discharged ?
Mr. Gordon. Yes ; there was a feeling this would take place.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask one more question ?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. I had one more question. You volunteered this state-
ment, sir, as I recall it, "Perhaps my party history will help answer
that question." Then you volunteered the statement in 1945 you
helped form the Hollywood Communist Club. As I recall it, you
volunteered one statement that "Perhaps my party history will help."
Do you remember that ?
Mr. Gordon. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Well now, what other party history, Communist Party
history have you in mind that you would relate? You related you
334 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
formed that club. What else did you do in the Communist Party, as
part of your Communist Party history, about which you volunteered
this statement ?
Mr. Gordon. The thing I said, what I said was the major things in
my party history, and I want to put it on the record.
Mr. Doyle. That is all.
Mr. Tavenner. You were a member of the Communist Party at the
time that the Duclos letter was received in 1945 which caused a re-
organization of the Communist Party, were you not ?
Mr. GoiiDoN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the receipt of that letter play any part in your
ultimate decision to leave the Communist Party ?
Mr. Gordon. No ; it did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Of what group were you a member, what was the
name of the group of which you were a member at the time of the
receipt of the Duclos letter ?
Mr. Gordon. I am sorry. I cannot answer that question.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Mr. Chairman, I think I will have to ask that he
be directed to answer the question.
Mr. Velde. First of all, did you say you cannot, or you refuse to
answer the question, Mr.- Gordon ?
Mr. Gordon. I refuse to answer the question, Mr. Velde.
Mr. Velde. Then the chair feels it is a perfectly proper question
which could be answered without any fear of self-incrimination or
otherwise, and I do direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you subpenaed to appear as a witness?
Mr. Velde. Just a minute.
Mr. TAMi:NNER. Excuse me.
Mr. Velde. Will the witness abide by the Chair's direction ?
Mr. GoitDON. I am sorry.
Mr. Jackson. You persist in the refusal to answer ?
Mr. Gordon. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Is the witness here under compulsion of a subpena?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, Mr. Chaiman. I have the subpena before me,
and I would like to offer it in evidence as Gordon Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. Velde. It will be received.
(The document referred to was received in evidence and marked
"Gordon Exhibit No. 1.")
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. No questions. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy?
Mr. Clardt. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Moulder?
Mr. Moulder. Just one question, Mr. Chairman.
In what year did you say you disassociated yourself of active affil-
iation with the Communist Party ?
Mr. Gordon. At the end of 1945.
Mr. Moulder. Since that time have you in any way been affiliated
with the Communist Party activity ?
Mr. Gordon. No ; I have not.
Mr. Moulder. Then vou are not now a member of the Communist
Party?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 335
Mr. Gordon. No.
Mr. Moulder. I would be interested in knowing just what your
belief is. Do you still believe in the philosophy or the policy of the
Communist Party or the philosophy of government that they believe
in?
Mr. Gordon. At the moment, sir, I know only one truth.
Mr. Moulder. The point I am trying to make is even if you were
not actively a member or attending meetings of the Communist Party,
are you, in fact, still a Communist at heart and in belief and sympathy
for the party ?
Mr. Gordon. I have only one belief now.
Mr. Moulder. You haven't answered my question. My question,
what you believe in, as far as the Communist Party is concerned.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Gordon. I believe
Mr. Velde. Proceed.
Mr. Gordon. I believe there is only one truth; that God is an ac-
tive moral force. That is the only truth. Everything else is colored
by self-interest : that both sides can agree on this truth.
' Mr. Moulder. In the event of a conflict between this country and
Communist Russia, which side would you believe would be holding
to the truth or would be just, according to your philosophy?
Mr. Gordon. I have seen both sides, and both are based on good.
Mr. Moulder. That is all.
Mr. Velde. That is not an answer to the question Mr. Moulder put
to you. Can you give us an answer which side you think has right
arid truth, in the event of a conflict between those two ? That can be
answered very simply. The committee would appreciate it very
much if you would answer the question.
Mr. Gordon. In the event of a war ?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Gordon. Between the two countries? I would fight for the
United States.
Mr. Jackson. ^Yhy, if I may ask?
Mr. Gordon. For t:he same reason that you would.
Mr. Jackson. I would fight for the United States for a number of
reasons, including the fact that the Soviet Union has given every
evidence of attempting to destroy all of the concepts of divine
philosophy and spiritual and moral ethics. Does that enter into
your concept of why you would fight for the United States, or is that
one of the reasons ?
Mr. Gordon. I have stated my beliefs. All I can do is repeat them.
Mr. Jackson. I would say to you, sir, that in a day when men of
God, ministers of the cloth, are rotting in Communist prisons through-
out the world, it should not be difficult for one who bases his life
on moral and spiritual ethics to make a decision in that regard.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier.
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Is there any reason, Mr. Counsel, w^hy this witness
should not be dismissed ?
Mr. Ta\'enner. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. What is the date of service of the subpena ?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Beale has it.
Mr. Beale. Februarv 4, 1953.
336 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Velde. Mr. Witness, were you served with the subpena which is
marked "Gordon Exhibit 1" ?
Mr. Gordon. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. On February 4 of 1953?
Mv. Gordon.* Yes.
Mr. Velde. The witness is excused and the committee will be in
recess for 10 minutes.
(Representative Velde left the hearing room during the recess,
which lasted from 11 a. m. to 11 : 18 a. m.)
Mr. Jackson. The committee will come to order. Counsel, will
you call your next witness?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Mr. David A. Lang, please.
Mr. Jackson. Do you solenmly swear that the testimony you are
about to ^ive before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Lang. I do.
Mr. Jackson. Will you take that chair, please?
TESTIMONY OF DAVID A. LANG
Mr. Tavenner. You are Mr. David A. Lang?
Mr. Lang. I am.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you accom])anied by counsel?
Mr. Lang. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. You are entitled to counsel, if at any time you
desire to consult one.
When and w^iere were you born. Mi-. Lang?
Mr. Lang. Excuse me, Mr. Tavenner. I would like to ask a ques-
tion of the committee. Are these gentlemen behind me, are they in
the camera? Because I want it clearly understood I am not repre-
sented by counsel, and I see there are some of those behind me.
Mr. Jackson. It Avill be so noted,
Mr. Ta\t-nnkr. When and where were you born, Mr. Lang^
Mr. Lang. I was born in New York City.
Mr. Taatcnner. When?
Mr. Lang. In 101.5, November 30.
Afr. Tavenner. What was your educational training?
Mr, Lang. My training was
Mr. Tavenner. That is, your fornuil training.
Mr. Lang. I went tlirough eiirhth jziade and went into high school
in New York City, DcAVitt Clinton Iligli School. I attended DeWitt
Clinton for a year and came to California and continued my training
in liigli school here through the 11th grade.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to Califoi-nia?
Mr. Lang. In 10-_!S. I left hiirh school in the ilth grade and went
to work.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Lang. I am a screen writei-.
Mr. Tavenner. How ]<jng have you been a screen writer?
Mr. Lang. I luive been a screen writer since 1941.
Ml'. Tavenner. Where have you practiced your profession?
Mr. Lang. I have ])racticed my profession in the various studios
in HoUvwood. starting at Metro-Goldwvn-Mayer.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that in 1941 ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 337
Mr. Lang. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to 1941 how were you employed?
Mr. Lang. I had various positions. I worked in gas stations. I
worked at a tango parlor down on Santa Monica pier. I shipped out
to sea for a year. I worked in a dry-goods store.
T was a cartoonist, starting in 1936, for Screen Gents, Inc., and
continued as a cartoonist until 1941, when I became a writer in the
motion-picture business and was given a junior writer's contract with
Metro-Goldwyn-IMayer.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Lang. Yes; I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lang. No, sir ; I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time were you affiliated with
the Communist Party?
Mr. I^ang. I joined the Communist Party sometime in the latter
part of 1942 or early 1943, and I was associated with the party up to
a]>proximately the end of 1946.
Mr. Tw-enxer. Will you tell the committee, please, the circum-
stances under whicli you joined the partv, that is, the Communist
Party?
Mr. Lang. Well, it was shortly after I became a writer that I
i-ealized that many things tliat had been left undone, so far as my
education was concerned, needed filling in. I became very interested
in philosophies, history, psychology, and naturally I became ac-
quainted with many men in the profession I was then part of, and
in particular with a man who is now deceased, a man by the name
of Stephen Morgan. He was not a writer, but through many of
the contacts I became part of, I met Mr. Morgan and he was very
influential in setting up many of the kinds of things for me to read.
He was exciting to listen to. He was verj^ much of a student and
I became so imbued with many of the things he talked about, and
gradually we moved in toward tne philosophies of Marx and Engels,
along with Schopenhauer and Hegel, and even so my interest was
so great that he and his wife were instrumental in presenting to me
the oppoi'tunity of becoming a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Just how was this opportunity to become a member
of the Communist Party presented to you?
Mr. Lang. After many weeks or months of conversations and talks,
social gatherings, evenings at home, lie realized that I was looking for
sometliing more than he could really give me. And he presented it
to me in such a way, if I became a member of the Communist Party I
could delve further into the beliefs and philosophies of the party and
learn wliat it means and its liistorical background.
On this basis it intrigued me greatly. At this time I was not aware
of this revolutionary involvement. I knew to some extent it had
involvements that were not in accord with many of the beliefs of this
country, but it never occurred to me that by becoming a member of
the Communist Party I could in any way do anything against the
beliefs that I had as an American citizen, because I must say at this
time I was aware that the Communist Party was a legal party, and it
had an enormous influence on my coming to the realization I could
338 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
accept it, because I did not feel that I was abrogating any of the ideas
that I originally had for my country.
Parenthetically, I wish to add I found, particularly at this particu-
lar point, none of these problems had arisen.
Air. Tavenner. Will you tell us about your first induction into the
Communist Party?
Mr. Lang. AVhen Mr. Morgan presented to me — I asked him to
give me some time to think about it, and about a week later I called
him and said 1 had thought about it and I was agreeable.
He then said he would contact the proper authorities within the
party and have me cleared. Now, this was a very strange first induc-
tion ; I liad to be cleared. But I agreed to this.
He said also that he would contact me or have someone contact me
as to the next move. Three or four days later he did call me and said
that I had been cleared and would I contact a woman by the name of
Madelaine Ruthven.
Mr. Clardy. Spell that.
Mr. Lang. I am not positive on the spelling, it is R-u-t-h-e-v-e-i-n,
or a-v-a-n.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. R-u-t-h-v-e-n is the correct spelling.
Mr. Lang. He gave me her address, somewhere on Canon Drive,
and I was to meet her sometime in the late afternoon the following
day, and I did.
Madelaine Ruthven greeted me and accepted me as a cleared person
to be a member of the party. At that time she told me that I would
be expected to pay a ])ercentage of my income, a very small percent-
age. I think it was somewhere between 2 and 5 — no ; it wasn't 5 — 2 or
3 percent, something of that order.
Strangely, too, at this point she made it clear that the party was not
necessarily a revolutionary party. This is an interesting point I wish
to take up a little later. But she made it quite clear that the Com-
munist Party was not a revolutionary party, and that anything I
would hear to that effect was strictly an attempt upon the party by
the Trotsky ites, reactionaries, because the party was not interested
in the overthrow of the Government.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned to a particular group of the
Communist Party, as a result of your contact with Madelaine Ruth-
ven?
Mr. Lang. Yes, sir ; I was. I was put in contact with an indoctrin-
ation group. This was not a definite group of the Communist Party,
in terms of a fraction or a cell. It was formed only for the new peo-
ple who would become members of the party, to be indoctrinated into
the beginnings of Lenin, Stalin, Marx, Engels.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you this: We have had testimony in
some instances indicating that study groups — Marxist study groups —
were formed, composed of persons who sometimes were members of
the party, and in other instances were not, and that sometimes these
study groups were used as a recruiting ground for the Communist
Party.
I want to know, in this instance, whether this was a group of Com-
munist Party members who were being indoctrinated — that is, per-
sons already admitted to the party — or whether it was a study group
of the character that I mentioned a moment ago.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA 339
Mr. Lang. In regard to the gi'oup that I joined, they were all mem-
bers of the Communist Party, just as I was. Now, it is quite true
that a number of groups were carried on in this city by members of
the Communist Party, but not under the nominal idea that it was
anything connected with communism. They were current-events
groups, historical groups, reading groups, philosophy groups. A lot
of people were brought in who were interested in these subjects, but
communism in that case was never brought up until it was discovered
that certain individuals within the group wished to go further. Then
these people were recruited by the person in charge of the group that
had been sent out by the Communists.
Now, in regard to the group I am speaking of, the indoctrination
group I was sent to, it was a Communist group and everyone in it
had been accepted as Communists.
Mr. Tavenner. Who conducted the course of instruction or indoc-
trination ?
Mr. Lang. A man by the name of Michael Wilson.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us a little more about this person and
what his occupation was?
Mr. Lang. Michael Wilson was a screen writer. At that time he
was not too well known, but had been a functionary within the party
for some time. He was quite a bright man. He had exceptional
background in the philosophies of the Communist Party.
They had enormous confidence in his ability to teach this particu-
lar subject. He was quiet; he listened; he drew you in, because, after
all, you were a potential worker. In the event you became proficient
you would be sent out to do a good job for them.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were your meetings held?
Mr. Lang. In this particular case they were held consistently at
Mr. Wilson's house.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you attend that indoctrination
course ?
Mr. Lang. I would say between 8 and 10 weeks.
Mr. Tavenner. How many composed the members?
Mr. Lang. A very small group. I think, offliand, not over 8, 7, or
8 people.
Mr. Tavenner. After the completion of this 10 weeks' course, were
you transferred to another group ?
Mr. Lang. Yes; I was. I was then transferred to a definite cell
that worked within the Hollywood section. We met in a home some-
where in Beverly Hills.
Mr. Tavenner. How many of those who were in the studio group
with you were transferred to that group ?
Mr. Lang. I would say 4 or 5.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall their names?
Mr. Lang. Yes. A man by the name of Carl Foreman, his wife
Estelle Foreman.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, if you will, give further identifying infor-
mation, if you can, relating to these persons. Carl Foreman, what
was his occupation at the time ?
Mr. Lang. He was a screen writer. His wife was a housewife.
There was another man by the name of Sol Barzman.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what his occupation was ?
340 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Lang. I understood at that time that he was a writer. A man
by the name of Lou Solomon.
Mr. Tavennek. Will you spell the last name, please?
Mr. Lang. S-o-l-o-m-o-n.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell the first name?
Mr. Lang. I believe it would be Louis, L-o-u-i-s. I can't recall
anyone else from the original indoctrination group who joined this
cell group except that we met at the house of another person who had
not been in the indoctrination group.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall whether other persons were trans-
ferred from the original indoctrination groups to other groups of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Lang. Can I recall that ?
Mr. Tavenner. Recall wlio they were and if that occurred.
Mr. Lang. Franklj^', I cannot, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well. You were transferred to this new
group. "What type of people generally comjiosed this new group to
which you were assigned?
Mr. Lang. There was another couple at whose home we met, by the
name of Leonard. Charles Leonard. At this time he was attempting
to become a writer. He had sold an original story, I believe, to Para-
mount, and on the strength of that broke away from whatever occupa-
tion he was involved in and tried to become a AA-riter. ■
His wife Helen
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain in this group ?
Mr. Lang. Oh, for some many months. I would say 6. 8 months.
Mr. Tavenner. How many composed this group?
Mr. Lang. Well, let's see. Solomon, Barzman. the I^onards. that
is 2, 4, the Foremans, 6, and myself, 7; 7 people.
Mr. Taatenner. Were you then transferred to still a third group?
Mr. Lang. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat was the purpose or the reason for that?
Mr. Lang. Well, after a length of time within this group it was
decided to separate the writers from any of the Hollywood cells and
'joncentrate them in what was known as writers* cells, comprising
nothing more than just writers, radio writers, anybody who wrote,
mostly for pictures. This caused a large amount of people to be
moved back and forth ; geographically they were twisted around, and
it took some many months to organize this.
Mr. Tavenner. Whose decision was it that resulted in that transfer ?
Mr. Lang. Well, we understood that the decision came from New
York.
Mr. Tavenner. From New York ?
Mr. Lang. It was brought to us here for slight discussion, but there
was no question in the mind of anyone it wouldn't go through.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall who brought the directive from New
York?
Mr. Lang, Well, it was first promulgated here by a man named
John Howard Lawson, and there were a considerable number of meet-
ings on this, which I did not attend. Lou Solomon came to our group
after some meetings with Lawson and told us about it, and though
it was put up to a vote, there was not much to do but accept it, because
it had been more or less accepted by the hierarchy of the party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 341
Mr. Tavenner, I believe I understood you to say there were about
seven in this group.
Mr. Lang. That is all, sir, I can recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you (jiven the names of all of them?
Mr. Lang. I believe so. Solomon, Barzman, Leonard, Foreman.
All I can recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, would you tell the committee, ]3lease, what was
the primary purpose or function of this last group of the Communist
Party to which you were assigned?
Mr. Lang. Well, it was understood that if the Avriters could be
brought together as a group their common interests and problems
would be more clearly enunciated, so that action could be taken im-
mediately, rather than to go through channels. I didn't mean to say
it obviated going through channels, but it just cut a number of them
down.
Tlie party in Hollywood was very interested in creating a strong
writers' front, so that the content of the motion pictures from their
point of view could be approved, and that many of their ideals and
their beliefs could be worked into the motion pictures.
This is not to say only in the scripts of the motion pictures, but
into the various organizations that were part and parcel of the
entire motion-picture scene, which took in the guilds, which took in
all organizations that had any part of making a motion picture.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Do I understand from what you have just said the
real purpose was to further the Communist cause in any way you
possibly could, in every direction?
Mr. Lang. That is quite correct.
Mr. Clardy. In the script, in the production, and in the outside
activities of the members in general, to promote the Communist cause?
Mr. Lang. That is right. Being a group of writers they felt a closer
bond would be created among the writers who were Communists, so
they could then carry on the work with other writers and that other
writers would feel they would be coming into a group that understood
tlieir problems. It as a very neat little affair.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask, again, what year or years did this ac-
tivity or plan exist?
Mr. Lang. I would sav somewhere in 1944. I am not terribly cor-
rect on that date, 1944, 1945 ; I think it was 1944.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Lang, I don't know that counsel brought it out —
I don't think he did — what are your screen credits?
Mr. Lang. My screen credits — well, they are extensive, but I will
tr}'- to remember some of them. The first picture that I made was a
show called Yank on tlie Burma Road for MGM. And I made
another one for MGM called Northwest Rangers.
Mr. Moulder. Could he give the dates, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Lang. That was — let's see, 1942, maybe the second one went
into 1943. At Metro you work on a script a considerable length of
time. You do many other duties between them, and a lot of things
I did there never got on the screen, which happens to every writer.
I left MGM after 3 years being imder contract, and I sold an
original to Paramount called Cheezit the Cops. And they made it.
31747— 53^pt. 1 6
342 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
I did People are Funny. This is very interesting, to show the effect
the party had ah-eady exerted upon nie. While I was doing an in-
nocuous a picture as People are Funny
Mr. CL.4iiDY. As what ?
Mr. Lang. As innocuous
Mr. Clardy. I didn't hear the title.
Mr. Laxg. People are Funny, a situation arose in which a character
in the picture
Mr. Tavexnkr. Will you raise your voice a little, please?
Mr. Lax<;. A situation arose in which my producer wished to create
a situation in whicli a cliaracter in the picture was to blacken his face.
It was perfectly all right, as far as he was concerned, but I imme-
diately took' umbrage. I said, "This is a terrible thing. You camiot
do a think like that," when actually there was nothing about it, now
that I think about it, that was derogatory to the Negroes — nothing
was said, no act was performed — but yet such a profound influence
was exerted on me I made a terrible situation out of it. I refused to
do it. It came to a point whether I would do it or get off the script.
I said I would get off the script.
It was brought then to the hierarchy of the studio, my executive
lirfKlucer for Paramount, and they accepted it. They wanted the
script done, so they said, "All right. Just pass this, and he will write
it in."
I only menticm.this in passing to show in such a slight thing as this
what influence is brouoht up by the party. Nobody told me to do
this. 1 did it.
jVIr. Tavenner. Your indoctrination took.
Mr. Lang. It should.
Mr. Tavenner. You used a method of describing the activities of
this group, in which you said the influence of one writer upon another
or the carrying on of work by one writer with another. Wliat were
you referring to there? Did you have any special thing in mind?
What type of work was there an occasion to do between writers if
they were employed separately on scripts ?
]V"lr. Lang. Oh, well, a very interesting sidelight to the formation of
the writers in Hollywood came along with the idea of what was called
writers' clinics were created. This was a small group of top-echelon
writers who were at the service of all members of the party to discuss
scripts, originals, stories that were in work at the studios, and to
improve, from their point of view, the material and the quality of
the script.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me interrupt you there. You speak of a
writers' clinic.
Mr. Lang. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that a group composed exclusively of members
of the Communist Party, or did it include also non-Communists of
any sort?
Mr. Lang. It was only composed of those members of the party.
Mr. Ta\-enner. Was this service which you have described extended
to non-Communists or limited solely to members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Lang. Well, it would be very difficult to extend it, I would
think, because they would not want to reveal themselves, and it was
more or less just concerned with the party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 343
Mr. TA^^:N]srER. Now, I interrupted you. I am not sure that you
have fully described the activities of that group.
Mr. Lang. Well, the interesting aspect of this particular group
which occurs to me, and they, too, thought so much of it, was intended
to create an enormous dependence upon the party by the writers, be-
cause if a writer felt that he was being helped by functionaries, it
was quite difficult to separate yourself from the party. You would
be more prone to do many things that they asked you to do in writ-
ing, in the writing field. And they infused you with a sense of
loyalty to the party.
And, as I noticed a few moments ago, the effect of this certainly
rubbed off on me, even though it was not a matter of my going to the
writers' clinic. Probably what I did was not so terrible, but let's
assume that something more important was asked of somebody, you
were caught up in a situation like this: Yes, you could very easily
say, "I refuse to put it in the script." Because you are a writer you
could very easily not put it in, or say that they cut it out, say that
the studio took it out or the producer took it out.
Mr. Tavexner. Speak a little louder, please.
Mr. Lang. I say you could very easily leave it in the script and
then take it out, and later on when the picture was released you could
have said, "They took it out." But this was not the case, because in
many instances men were carried along with this idea that whatever
the group would discuss and argue for, as long as it didn't destroy
or disturb the story, it was a sidelight, it was left in.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the leaders of this clinical group that
you have spoken of?
Mr. Lang. Men such as Dalton Trumbo, John Howard Lawson,
Lester Cole, Paul Jarrico, Dick Collins, Paul Trabusis.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, is it correct to say that another result of
such activity would be to keep the Communist writers employed by
improving their scripts and improving their product?
Mr. Lang. Well, that was certain part and parcel of the whole thing,
because as long as a man was employed he was to pay dues.
Mr. Tavenner. And that was also an inducement for a person to be
a member of the Communist Party, to receive such assistance from
such persons.
]\Ir. Lang. That is correct.
Mr. Clardy. Part of the sales talk, in other words; was it?
Mr. Lang. Well, it was a pretty good sales talk.
^Ir. Clardy. It worked on you.
Mr. Lang. You see, they were in a very good position at tliis partic-
ular time to do this, because, when the war was on, the Soviet Union
was our ally. , It was not too difficult to incorporate stuff in the script
that was agreeable to many men in the industry that were naive enough
to accept. I think it would be very difficult, I think personally it
would be impossible. I think the motion-picture industry, I think
the heads of it, the producers of it are really far more aware than ever
before of the ideas.
Mr. Walter. More than that, aren't the people who would ordi-
narily be persuaded to become parties to this movement aware of what
it actually means?
Mr. Lang. Excuse me, sir. I didn't catch the entire question.
344 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. "Waltkk. I say, more tluin tlie reasons you have given, aren't
tliose ])e()plo who -would be attracted to the Communist Party now
aware of wliat it actually means, and for that reason would not become
pai'ties to the movement ?
Mr. Laxo. Oh, definitel}".
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one?
Mr. Jacksox. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Mouldp:r. During the time you were a member of the Conmiu-
nist Party, or at any time during your career, were you ever employed
to slant your screen writing to aid in the Communist ])ropagaiida at all ?
Ml-. Lang. Xo, sir : I was never, because, among other things, ] never
worked on pictures that carried that particular type of a situation,
and I cannot say for sure that I know of any particular instance in
which it was done. It was done in a subtle manner. You see, it went
deeper than just coming out and saying this is right and this is wrong.
The entire idea of the Communist Party is revoluti(m. and any subject
Diatter which broached on minorities or any circumstance that in our
countiy had tendencies of being maltreated, ill treated, so that they
would say about certain things by inference, they felt this was nothing;
this was good.
Ml'. Walter. Were they successful in their efforts?
Mr. Laxg. If you can make a peo])le more discontented by showing
them themselves portra^'ed on a screen in a better light, they felt that
(his was doing a good job.
Mr. Moulder. You have to some extent given us detailed informa-
tion concerning the objectives of the Communist Party leaders in
forming cells among screen writers and other i)rofessionaIs in the
entertainment field.
In your opinion, were they ever successful in their plans along that
line, successful to an elTective extent?
Mr. Lang. Yes ; to an extent they were. They were very effective,
because they proselytized it very well. They got people, writers who
would be more sympathetic, and though it might have been right for
the moment, their intent was wrong.
Mr. Moi'LDKR. Can you give us any specific instance of any picture
or any play or other entertainment that in your opinion you would
designate as having effective Communist propaganda?
Mr. Lax'^g. No, sir, I cannot. I cannot, because it was spread over
so thin an area or, rather, such a wide area and was spread so thinly
that it would have been not only the field of minority problems, but
the field of housing and the field of our interest in government.
Mr. Moulder. That would not necessarily be a Communist philos-
ophy or belief. That might be of interest to all American citizens.
Mr. Lang. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question ?
Mr. Jackson. Mv. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Lang, I made a couple of notes trying to catch your
exact language as you talked on a couple of points. I want to ask
you if you feel you can add anything to what you have already said,
to explain. I notice you, in your reference to Madelaine Ruthven,
said she made it quite clear the Conmiunist Party was a revolutionary
party, was not interested in the overthrow of government.
Now then, you said also, "At this time I was not aware of its revolu-
tionary purpose."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 345
Now, I am wondering why did yon ever become aware of any
revolutionary purpose of the Connnunist Party, what sort of a revolu-
tion, what kind of a revolutionary party, what sort of a revolution,
when is it to come, and under what conditions.
Mr. Lang. The concept of the Communist Party, it is an inter-
national organization. Let's not fool ourselves about this.
Mr. Doyle. About what?
Mr. Lang. It is an international organization, the Communist Party.
If you, which I did many years too late, go back into the history of
the war and how they changed their point of view so as to gain a foot-
hold wherever they could and wherever they felt a foothold would be
hard to gain — that knew that it is difficult to arouse people in a country
like the L^nited States into revolutionary tactics, some man wdio has
been born and raised here, to overthrow the Government that he has
been given the opportunity to improve under. So, they changed the
face that they originally started out with.
If you will read a man by the name of Dimitrov, he said that the
Communist Party will always be a revolutionary party, the concept
of the party, it came out of revolution and the end of it is to be only the
overthrow of the capitalist and all that the capitalist stands for. It
must be a party of the proletariat, and we must gain the peasants and
workers.
But this was not Russia. This was a country that was rich and
powerful, and to come into this country and to bring about an organiza-
tion such as the Connnunist Party wasn't that easy, because there
weren't that many people who were suffering, and to get men like me
and many like me, they had to make it more palatable, they had to make
it more esoteric, more intellectual, and they did a darned good job.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I note it is adjournment time. May I
be permitted to ask a couple of questions of this witness right after
lunch?
Mr. Jackson. Yes. The witness will be back after lunch.
Is this a good place to break, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir ; this is a good point.
Mr. Jackson. The committee has received a great immber of tele-
grams and communications from the people of Los Angeles expressing
their appreciation for tlie hearings, and I might say that there is up
to this point no one opposed to the activities of the committee. The
committee is gratified by this public interest and response.
The committee will stand in recess until 1:45 p. m. this afternoon.
(Thereupon, at 12:02 p. m., the hearing was recessed to reconvene
at 1 : 45 p. m. same day.)
AF'J'EKNOC )X S ESS I( )N
(At the hour of 1 : 58 p. m., of the same dav, the proceedings were
resumed, Representatives Harold H. Velde (chairman), Donald L.
Jackson (appearance noted in transcript). Kit Clardy, Gordon H.
Scherer, Francis E. Walter, Clyde Doyle, and James B. Frazier, Jr.,
being present.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will come to order.
Let the record show at this point that Mr. Clardy, Mr. Scherer, Mr.
Walter, Mr. Doyle, Mr. Frazier, and the cliairnmn. Mi'. Velde, are
present, a quorum of the full committee.
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
346 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
TESTIMONY OF DAVID A. LANG— Eesumed
Mr. Tavenner. I believe a member of the committee was inter-
rogating the witness when we stopped.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. counsel. You are always very thoughtful,
as well as capable.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson entered the hearing room at
this point, 2 p. m.)
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Lang, I think before the noon recess I asked you
the question bearing on the subject of your statements about the revo-
lutionary intent and purpose of the American Communist Party.
To refresh your memory, just two brief statements by you. "At this
time I was not aware of its revolutionary purpose," referring to the
American Communist Party.
And, secondly, referring to Madelaine Ruthven, "She made it quite
clear the Communist Party was not a revolutionary party, not in-
terested in the overthrow of the Government."
Then you also stated, "I later found out differently."
You also stated, "I did not feel I was abrogating any of my loyalty
to my country when I joined the Communist Party."
Now, on the subject of revolutionary intent and purpose of the
American Communist Party, what sort of revolution were they advo-
cating when you were a member of the Communist Party ? Was there
any force or violence directly or indirectly involved ?
Mr. Lang. Not to my knowledge. There was no force and violence
ever shown around me. When I mentioned earlier that the intent of
the Communist Party was revolutionary and for revolution, I mean
that the party was formed for the specific purpose of revolution.
They reiterate this in all their statements.
But at one time, as I said, when they realized they wished to infil-
trate into the United States and cover many people who might be
against this exception, they had to change the general form of the
party. And they made it quite clear at this time they were separating
themselves from any international organization and becoming nothing
more than the American Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. About what 5^ear was that, please?
Mr. Lang. This was much earlier than I was ever in. I would say
back in the middle 1930's.
Mr. Doyle. All right. Now, what processes then were to be en-
gaged and used, during the time you were in the part}- and learned
anything about it, to project their revolutionary purpose and intent?
Mr. Lang. Only intellectually, at least so far as I was concerned.
People that I associated with never discussed any overt act, such as
overthrowing the Government, because the concept was that by the
very condition of our societ}' it would destroy itself, and that we could
only help it further by clarifying the issues that were destroying
this society within, so that we would be ready — we would be the van-
guard— when the time came.
There was no time limit put to this, but the intention was that they
had to create the nucleus of men and women who could lead the mil-
lions of people who would revolt when our society began to disinte-
grate.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 347
Mr. D0Y1.E. My other question which I indicated was that yon said
"I did not feel I was abrogating; any of my loyalty to my country
at that time."
Mr. Lang. That is correct.
Mr. DoYXE. Did you ever change your opinion on that? I mean
when, if ever, did you come to feel you were abrogating?
Mr. Lang. I changed my opinion when I realized the intention be-
hind the act, when I realized that I was being used to lead during a
revolt. Eevolt I considered so far afield that it never entered my
mind. But when I began to see that I was being taught the things
that the Communist Party advocated, that in a simple way I was
being used through propaganda to incite, to make those people mal-
content, instead of working within the confines of our law and our
courts, that we were just using the material that the party taught us
to make people more uneasy, more revolutionary.
Mr. Doyle. Do I understand then that while you were in the Com-
munist Party part of its program was the teaching of you, for in-
stance, training of you, and you awoke to the fact they were training
you to use you as the leader along with the other leaders, even at that
time, to incite strife and stresses and unhappy situations, economically
and socially in our country ?
Mr. Lang. Yes; that is right.
Mr. DoTLE. To stir up all the strife they could between races and
minorities and majorities?
Mr. Lang. Wlien I found this out, this is when I broke away. I
felt very strong while in the party, that I would be in the position to
understand a lot of things that happened, and to help these things
happen within the elements of our law and our courts, but when I
began to see that the party looked askance at our courts and made fun
of everything we stood for and took every advantage of our mistakes —
and Lord knows we make plenty of them — and there is nothing wrong
with making mistakes — to take advantage of a mistake, to set people
against one another or set people against the country, that that was
a part of this I couldn't stand for, so any knowledge they could impart
to me by becoming a member of the party would have been of no value.
I was against it. And, educationall3% I felt I could learn far more
by getting out of it, without having the influence of these people about
me.
]VIr. Doyle. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Lang, who was chairman or who acted as
chairman of this special gi'oup of writers to which you were assigned?
Mr. Lang. I remember a man by the name of Joe Solomon.
Mr. Tavenner. Which group is that that you are referring to?
Mr. Lang. I am now referring to the group that I was associated
with after the indoctrination,
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Now, you have testified about being assigned
to another group composed chiefly of writers, as I understood.
Mr. Lang. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. And that was the group as to which you testified
there was a writers' clinic established f
Mr. Lang. That is correct.
Mr. Ta\t3nner. Who was the chairman or leader of that group, or
was there more than one ?
Mr. Lang. There were many more than one.
348 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIKS IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavexnek. How is that?
Mr. Lang. Many more than one. The chairman rotated from
meeting to meeting, and they had a list of maybe 8 or 10 or 15 men to
take over the cliairmanship. They usually selected men who were
articulate, who were of the higher bracket, who were more in the
function of the party, to that they woidd be able to enunciate the
directives more clearly.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall who acted in that capacity from time
to time?
Mr. Lang. Yes: I can. A man by the name of Guy Endore, a man
by the name of Sam Ornitz: Robert Kossen, I believe. Adrian Scott,
Alvah Bessie, Dalton Trumbo, Ring Lardner, Jr., Paul Jarrico, Paul
Curtiss, Dick Collins, Gordon Kahn, John Howard Lawson, Allen
Boretz, John Bright, Harold Buchman, Arnaud D'Usseau, Edward
Eliscu, Lester Cole, Dan James.
These are the men that I remember distinctly being chairman of
the group tliat I was associated with.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall who was the financial secretary of
the group ?
IVli-. Lang. To the best of my knowledge I can only remember one
man, and his name was Cy Endfield.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you occupy any position in that cell or group
at any time ?
^Ir. Lan(;. For a very short period of time I acted as literature
chairman, which consisted of nothing more or less than picking up
pamphlets and reading material that would be part and parcel of the
subject matter that would be taken up at the previous meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you obtain the Communist Party liter-
ature and books ^
Mr. Lang. I obtained them at a place called the Lincoln Book-
store on Highland Avenue just above Plollywood Boulevard.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know anything regarding the formation
of that bookstore or the establishment of it?
Mr. Lang. Yes. At one time it was brought up that it was quite
necessary that the Hollywood section be represented by a bookstore
so that it would facilitate receiving material quickly, because there
had been only one bookstore and that was downtown, but it was a
matter of mone3^ and we were asked to give money for the bookstore,
with the idea that it would be repaid as soon as the bookstore was on
a financial basis.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you raise your voice a little, please? Well, do
you recall how much money was raised by your Communist Party unit
to establish this bookstore or assist in it ?
Mr. Lang. I never found out how mucli money was raised. I assume
that it was considerable, because they had to pay cash for everything
and they did have a considerable number of books, and they had rent
to pay in a locality that I am sure was not cheap.
Mr. Tam5NNer. Do you know by whom this bookstore was operated?
Mr. Lang. It was a man by the name of Milton Lubouiski.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Lang. Only by inference, because I assumed that no man would
be in charge of any bookstore working for the party who was not a
member of the party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 349
Mr. Jackson. Is that bookstore still in operation ?
Mr. Lang. No, sir; it is not.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you kno\v whether or not the bookstore changed
its name at a later date ?
Mr. Lang. I do not.
Mr. Tam^nner. Will von tell the committee in whose liomes this
group met while you were a member of it ?
Mr. Lang. I can recall distinctly that we met in the home of a man
named Paul Trivers, Henry Meyers, Hu^o Butler, Lester Cole, Maurice
Raph, R-a-p-h,^ Henry Blankfort, Waldo Salt, and Ring Lardner, Jr.
Mr. Jackson. Are you sure of the spelling of Rapf *s name ? I think
you said R-a-p-h. Is it R-a-p-f ?
Mr. Lang. I am sorry. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall -while you were a member of that
grou}) that it was addressed by functionaries of the Communist
Party from a higher level ?
Mr. Lang. I can recall a few people wdio attended the meetings who
had been sent out here as a spearhead on different subjects, and to my
knowledge a man by the name of Joseph North, N-o-r-t-h, who was
editor of the New Masses, addressed us at one time : a woman by the
name of Ella Winter; another women by the name of Oleta O'Connor
Yates. That is spelled 0-1-e-t-a O'Connor Y-a-t-e-s. And a man
named William Schneiderman ; that is spelled S-c-h-n-e-i-d-e-r-m-a-n.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Over how long a period was it that these people
appeared before your group I
Mr. Lang. AVell, they would appear periodically. It Avas not a
meeting that was set; it depended upon the issue at the moment.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you a member of this group and
attended its meetings?
Mr. Lang. I would say I was a member of this group over a period
of a vear and a half, 2 years. The latter vear that I continued
membership in the party I attended very few meetings.
Mr. Ta\t5Nner. What are the years when you attended the meetings
of this group ?
Mr. Lang. '45 — *44 and '45.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall aproximately how many persons were
members of this group ?
Mr. Lang. I can recall quite a number. At the closed meetings I
met men by the name of, such as George
Mr. Tavenner. Closed meetings of what ?
Mr. Lang. Comnnmist meetings. These were definitelv Communist
meetings. No one was allowed at these meetings unless they were
members of the Communist Party.
]\Ir. Taa-enner. Were they members of the grou]) or cell to which
you belonged ?
Mr. Lang. That's correct.
Mr. Tavennp:r. All right.
Mr. Lang. George Bassman, B-a-s-s-m-a-n ; Nick Bela, B-e-l-a :
Edward Biberman, B-i-b-e-r-m-a-n ; Henry Blankfort, Laurie Blank-
fort, William Blowitz, Hugo Butler, Howard Dimsdale, Morton
Grant, Edward Huebsch, Lester Koenig, Millard Lampell, Pauline
' Spelling corrected by witness to R-a-p-f.
350 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Lagerfin, Isobel Leiinart, Al Levitt, Arnold Manoff, M-a-n-o-f-f; Mor-
timer OH'iicr. O-f-f-u-e-r; W. L. River, Bob Robert, Marguerite Rob-
erts, Jolm Stanford, Wilma Shore, George Sldar, S-k-1-a-r; Bess
Taffel, Connie Lee Bennett, Max Benoff, B-e-n-o-f-f; Henrietta
Martin, Seymour Bennett, Eunice Mindlin, Val Burton.
Mr. TAviiNNi.R. What is that name ^
Mr. Lang. Val Burton, Julian Zimet, Frank Tarloff, Louise Rous-
seau, ^Maurice Clark, Dorothy Comingore.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall a person by the name of George
Willner?
Mr. Lang. I do.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Was he a member of that group ?
Mr. Lang. No, sir ; I do not remember him to be a member of that
group.
Mr. Tavenner. John Wexley, do you recall him?
Mr. Lang. John Wexley, correct ; W-e-x-1-e-y, John Wexley.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of that same
group of the Communist Party with you ?
Mr. Lang. That is correct.
]\lr. Tavenner. And did he attend closed Communist Party
meetings?
Mr. Lang. He did.
Mr. Tavenner. I do not know whether you have mentioned the name
of Michael Uris.
Mr. Laxg. Michael Uris was a member of that group. I forgot his
name. It is so difficult to remember some of these names, but I am
sure that he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall a person by the name of Victor
Shapiro ?
Mr. Lang. Yes, sir; I do. He was a member of that group. He
was not a writer ; he was a publicist.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you know he was a member of that gi'oup ?
]Mr. Lang. He attended the meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. Closed Communist Party meetings?
Mr. Lang. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Do j^ou recall a person by the name of Elliott
Grennard ?
Mr. Lang. Grennard, that's right.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how to spell the name ?
Mr. Lang. G-r-e-n-n-a-r-d, I think.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that person known to you to be a member of
this same group of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lang. That is correct ; he was a member of the Communist Party
in this group.
Mr. Tavenner. Do 3-ou recall a person by the name of Art B-i-r-n-
k-a-r-n-t?
Mr. Lang. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the last name, please?
Mr. Lang. B-i-r-n-k-a-r-n-t.
Mr. Tavenner. What knowledge did you have of his activity, if
any, in the Communist Party?
Mr. Lang. To my knowledge Arthur Birnkarnt was not a writer,
but he was assistant to a man named Buchman.
Mr. Ta\^nner. What Buchman ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 351
Mr. Lang. I know the name, but I cannot recall it at the moment.
Harold Buchman's brother.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Wliat was the occupation •
Mr. Lang. Sidney Buchman. Sidney Buchman was a producer.
Mr. Tavenner, What was your knowledge of his Communist Party
activities, if any ? That is, of the person of Art Birnkarnt ?
Mr. Lang. I am not aware of what he actually did. I just know
that he was an assistant to Mr. Buchman.
Mr. Ta\t3nner. Was he a member of the Communist Party group
of which vou were a member ?
Mr. Lang. That s correct.
Mr. Ta^-enner. How do you know that ?
Mr. Lang. Because he was a member, he attended too many meet-
ings not to have been a member.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you told us how long you remained in the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Lang. I remained in the party officially until the latter part of
1946. It was sometime, though, before 1946 that I broke away, at least
in the physical sense, because I was soon learning that this was not my
dish of tea. But, unfortunately, it had left some mark, some associa-
tions, some feelings, and they imbued you with a false sense of loyalty
that carries you along considerably, and it takes time to break away,
just like it takes time to join it.
Mr. Tavenner. When did your breaking away begin and when do
you conclude that it was final, if it was final ?
Mr. Lang. It was definitely final at the latter part of 1946, when I
realized that I could no longer maintain an association with people
that I had no sympathy for, when I learned that I did not have to
fear them, not in any physical sense, but in a social sense; that they
were so completely different in their feelings than I was that it made
no difference whether they continued to be my friends or not, and I had
been so long from the party, and they had so many times asked me
why, and I had made all sorts of excuses, and the time came when they
asked me again, and this time I said, "Look, I don't want to stay in it:
I want out, I don't like anything you are doing ; I don't agree with any
of your activities ; I want no more association with you ; please don't
bother me any more."
That was the end of it.
Mr. Tavenner. Since that time have you affiliated with the Com-
munist Party or supported any of its activities, to your knowledge?
Mr. Lang. To my knowledge I have supported not one activity.
My associations with the members of the Communist Party broke off
very suddenly after this. I was not very socially adjusted to many
of the people, anyway, and I returned to friends that I had continued
with through the years that had no connection with the party in
any way.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there anything of a concrete character that you
can point to to indicate that your break with the Communist Party
has been final and complete ?
Mr. Lang. Yes. Let me go back on that question just before this,
when you say I did not associate with any members of the Communist
Party once I became a non-Communist.
352 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
T (lid associate with two people that I was responsible in brinffing
into the party. Their names are Bai-^enian — Bertha Bargeman — and
a man named Marvin Bargeman. We disagi'eed violently on every
issne, but the years of friendship that had gone on before either of us
had ever joined laid some cement for the years that proceeded, and
when 1 tinally made up my mind to break :forever and to reveal what
1 know of the party, because I know of its function now, I even went
so far as to contact both of these people, and I told them, 1 said,
"I know this is the end of whatever friendship we have, but I am
going to name you, because I think you are wrong; it is time that
you got off the dime and made a clean breast of this thing. I do not
agree with any of the things that you stand for, and I can no longer
protect you and no longer will protect you. This is your baby and
you have got to take the brunt of it like t am going to take it, because
1 know that I am right."
To show the effect that this took, a day later Mrs. Bargeman came
to my wife, and she said, "How can you be married to a man such as
this, to have done such a deed, or is going to do such a deed?"
Mr. Tavenxer. Will you raise your voice a little ?
Mr. Lang. "How can you be married to a man such as this, who is
doing what he is doing, and actually, you know, David is going to be
against the wall in 10 years; they are going to shoot him."
So that was great. That gave me the whole key. I realized now
that I was holding onto something that was a miasma that had no
meaning, because if people carry their emotions to such degree as this,
then you are dealing with people that are not capable of working in a
period of conflict or upheaval, when chaos is the only thing that is
going to give them impetus to action, and this scored the whole issue
very beautifully for me.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. ]\Ir. Lang, first of all, I should say how much we
appreciate your cooperation in coming before the committee, giving
the committee, the Congress, and the American people, the benefit of
your knowledge of the operations of the Communist Party.
I might say if you go before a wall you will have a lot of company.
Are you a member of the Screen Writers' Guild ?
Mr. Lang. I am, sir.
Mr. Jackson. Did you retain your membership over the period of
years — ■ —
Mr. Lang. I have.
Mr. Jackson (continuing) . That you were in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lang. I did.
Mr. Jackson. How many members of the Screen Writers' Guild,
during the period of your membership in the Communist Party, did
you know to be members of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lang. Every name that I have given as writers involved in the
functions of the Communist Party as a part of the group were mem-
bers of the Screen Writers' Guild.
Ml-. Jackson. Were you a member of the so-called jirogressive
caucus of the Screen Writers' Guild?
Mr. Lan(;. My name was on it. I was never a member of it. T never
participated in any of their activities.
Mr. Jackson. What was the function of the caucus?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 353
Mr. Lanc. The caucus was formed to brino; issues tliat the party
felt were important for the welfare of the Hollywood writer, never
takinjr into consideration the fact this was an uphill fight for the
wn-iter to gain recognition, to gain a minimum wage, and that each
thing must be taken in its course and a door must be closed before
another door is opened. But they would make such issues that would
not aline the guild as a solid functioning group. They would bring
up all side issues, whatever came to their mind, to give the feeling
that we were being led wrong, we were being made dupes of by the
producers, and that we must be fighting harder, and this only caused
more uncertaintv, more split, and they kept saying all the time, "We
want unity," aiid the more they talked about unity the wider the
chasm grew. They didn't function in a good way, that I ever saw.
]Mr. Jackson. How extensive was the influence of the caucus in
the Screen Writers' Guild ?
Mr. Lang. I never found them to be very extensive, and to that
extent they are so completely in the minority today that they are
not even around. They have "been in disrepute for some time, I would
say. Thev cut their own throats.
"Mr. Jackson. You say they are not around. Do they no longer
hold membership in the "guild" or attend meetings of the guild?
Ml-. Lanc;. They are not active. They are not vociferous. They
liave been squelched so beautifully.
Mr. Jackson. It was at all times a minority membership in the
guild ? They were the Communists in the guild ?
Mr. Lang." I would say so. I would say there was a minority mem-
bership in the Communist Party in the* Hollywood scene, so far as
the writers are concerned. They tried very diligently to infiltrate
into the picture business. They didn't get very far.
Whatever you might say, the picture business has always been on
the offensive". They have always fought anything that w\as Com-
munist. I have never found a producer, never found an actor associ-
ated with anybody in the picture business who tried to sell me a bill
of goods. I am talking about the men who are the heads, that de-
cide and make the movies. A writer could very easily put things
in a script. It is not so easy to get it past the men who know what
it is all about.
Mr. Jackson. Were the members of the caucus able to put their
members on the board of directors of the Screen Writers' Guild or
in any other capacity ?
Mr. Lang. They got on the Screen Writers' Guild because they
were pretty clear on issues for the moment.
Mr. Jackson. They knew where they were going ?
Mr. Lang. They knew where they were going, and they made it
strong and to the point, and so many honest, decent guys in the guild
who were not active that could not enunciate these ideas, they felt,
"Here is leadership."' This was the principle behind the Hollywood
Communist grou]) leadership, get in, work from within.
Mr. Jackson. Do you feel that you knew most of the members of
the Communist Party in the Screen Writers' Guild? Is there any
reason to believe there are others of whom you have no knowledge?
Mr. Lang. There are reasons to believe there are a few left I didn't
meet. As I say, this group I was associated with was one of 3 or 4.
354 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
They were geographically set up so that most men and women in the
valley would be closer to their group than those in Hollywood and
Beverly Hills, so you didn't meet them all. There were many times,
of course, when writers w'ould come into your group, having moved,
so on and so forth.
Mr. Jackson. Again may I express my thanks to you for your
coopei'ation befoi-e the committee this afternoon.
Mr. Lang. Thank you.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. You have named a considerable number who you said
were members of the party and active in pictures in one fashion or
another. How many of those are still active in pictures today?
Mr. Lang. There has been nobody named that has been an un-
friendly witness or that has stood on the fifth amendment that works
in a motion-picture studio todaj^, to my knowledge.
Mr. Cl-ardy. So that you have named everybody removed from the
scene, in one fashion or another ?
Mr. Lang. I believe they have been.
IMr. Clardy. In summing up your testimony, as a whole, as I gather
it, and regardless of the facts you have just now stated, those have
been moved out again, which you say, based on your experience, that
that medium of public information is' particularly vulnerable and
you have to be on guard continuously to prevent the thing happening
again ?
Mr. Lang. I would go further than that. You have to be on guard
on every issue and every line.
Mr. Clardy. The Commies work 24 hours a day ?
]\Ir. Lang. They work all the time.
Mr. Clardy. If we are going to succeed in keeping it squelched, we
will have to stay on the job the same length of time.
Mr. Lang. That is my opinion.
Mr. Clardy. Thank you.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Walter ?
Mr, Walter. I have no questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. No more questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier ?
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Lang, do you know from your own experience
that the Communist Party today advocates the overthrow of the
United States Government?
Mr. Lang. No, sir; I do not. All I can say is that the whole basis
of communism is international. When people begin to realize this they
will realize that whatever guise the party takes, it is all the same thing.
It doesn't make any difference. The final answer to their objective is
for the overthrow of any government that is antipathetic to the Soviet
Union.
JVIr. Frazier. Does the Communist Party in the United States take
its orders from the Communist Party in Russia ?
Mr. Lang. This is rather difficult to answer, because there is nothing
definite that can be pointed to. All I can saj^ is that in 1935 — pardon
me, 1945, a man by the name of Duclos wrote a letter in criticism of
COIVOIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 355
tlie Communist Party activities in this country. It was at the time
Earl Browder was the head, and he advocated at that time an emer-
gency of the party. He could see new horizons coming out of the war
in which the party could come out in the open and work clearly with
capital and labor and be a function within the Government of the
United States. Whether he was right in this or wrong, I am not in
a position to say. It never came to pass.
I do know Mr. Duclos wrote a letter in violent opposition to it,
which was taken up by the party and carried through to the final end
where Browder was ousted. I can only answer your question by saying
that if this isn't an international party, then how can a man like
Duclos have such influence upon the American scene? Where did
Duclos get his ideas ?
Mr. Frazier. Thank you very much.
Mr. Velde. I would like to join in my colleague's comments and
thanks for the excellent testimony which you have given before this
committee. Unfortunately, I was not able to hear you this morning,
but we do appreciate the information you have given us. It has been
a great lielp in the performance of our duties.
Is there any reason, Mr. Counsel, why this witness should not be
excused ?
Mr. Ta\^nner. There is no reason why he should not be excused.
Mr. Velde. The witness is excused. The committee will be in recess
for 10 minutes.
(Representative Velde left the hearing room during the recess,
which lasted from 2 : 43 p. m. to 3 : 10 p. m.)
Mr. Jackson. The committee Avill come to order. Mr. Counsel,
are you ready to proceed?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jackson. Who is your next witness ?
Mr, Tavenner. The next witness is Mr. Max Benoff .
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Benoff, will you stand and be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Benoff. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF MAX NATHAN BENOFF, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, EDWARD BENNETT WILLIAMS
Mr. Jackson, Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Benoff. My name is Max Nathan Benoff.
Mr, Tavenner. What is the first name ?
Mr. Benoff. Max,
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Benoff, I was born in New York City, September 21. lO!,".
Mr, Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Benoff. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. WiLLL\MS, I am Edward Bennett Williams, of Washington,
D, C.
Mr, Tavenner, Mr. Benoff, were you present in the hearing room
while the witness just before you testified ?
356 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Bexoi-i'. I was, sir.
Mr. Tavenxer. The witness, Mr. David Lang, identified you as
one of the members of the Communist Party group to which he was
assigned, the one composed of writers.
Mr. Benoff , were you a member of that group ?
Mr. Benofjt. Well, I don't remember which group he talked about,
^ii-, because he mentioned quite a few names, but 1 mean, I was a
member, if tliat is what you mean.
Mr. Taven'xek. Yes. Now before talking to you about that and
asking questions. I will further identify you as to your educational
background and your record of employment. Will you state to the
connnittee, please, what your formal education has consisted of?
Mr. Benoff. I was educated in the public schools of New York
City. I attended the grammar school and the junior high school, and
from junior high school went to high school and completed high school,
and that is the extent of my formal education.
Mr. Tavexxer. What is your occupation?
Mr. Benoff. I am a free-lance writer.
Mr. Tavennp:r. Free-lance writer?
Mr. Bexoff. Comedy writer.
Mr. Tavexxer. How long have 3'ou been engaged in that occupa-
tion?
Mr. Bexoff. Oh, about 15 years, between 15 and 16 years, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. AA'ill you briefly summarize for the committee,
please, what your record of employment has been and if you have
screen credits, tell the committee what they are.
Mr. Benoff. I will be glad to.
Mr. Tavex'xer. The principal ones.
Mr. Benoff. Certainly. I began to write comedy in — well, I actu-
ally wrote comedy all my life. When I was just a young fellow of
15 or so I used to contribute to Walter WinchelPs column quite
frequently. I think I Avas one of his leading contributors — I don't
like to })romote myself, but I contributed to Winchell's column and
I decided I might as well make some money out of it.
Mr. Ckardy. You. mean that was for free?
Mr. Bexoff. They didn't pay for it anyway.
Mr. Scheker. You might as well have been working for Jack
Benny.
Mr. Bexoff. What was that?
Mr. Clardy. You mav have thought vou were working for Jack
Beimy.
Mr. Bexoff. That is right. Jack pays very well. I started writ-
ing cartoon jokes, and I wrote some stuff for Ballyhoo. You gentle-
men probably never read the stuff. At any rate, I was writing stuff for
Ballyhoo, and I wrote the cartoon jokes for Peter Arno and ])eople
like that. I also wrote for radio.
About 19P)8 I had a couple of weeks with Eddie Cantor. I did odd
things. In 1039 I realy got started, because I went to work for Ed
(lardner on a program called So This Is New York. From that show
I went to the Phil Baker program. I worked on that for, I don't
know — as long as it lasted, which wasn't very long, then on the Tommy
Riggs show, and he didn't last very long, either.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 357
Mr. Clardy. Would you mind keeping your voice up ? I don't want
to miss any of this.
Mr. Benoff. Anyway, in 1940 I went to California, and I worked
on the Texaco Star Theater, starrino- Ken Murray. I went back to
New York and was married, and then in 1941 I went to Chicago and
worked on another program called — I don't remember. I just remem-
ber it was snowing all the time in Chicago.
I got back from there fast, and I went to work on a progi'am for Ed
Gardner again, a program called Duffy's Tavern. I worked on Duffy's
Tavern until 1943, and in 1943 I canie out to California to do a pic-
ture, and I went to work for Paramount. I left the radio program and
went to work for Paramount. They didn't make the picture. I guess
they read the script. Thev never made mine.
Anyway, after I left that, at the end of 1943, then in 1944 I worked
for Twentieth Century-Fox just only a few weeks. I worked at KKO
for just a few weeks. I worked for Warner Bros. The name of the
picture was Take It or Leave It, one picture. The other picture was,
I am ashamed to say. The Girl Hush.
Then while at Warner Bros. I did Hollywood Canteen. I didn't
do very well in pictures. I went back to radio and I did the Baby
Snooks program, and then I went in the Navy.
In the Navy I did programs like Command Performance, Com-
mand Call, and stuff like that.
Mr. Tavenxer. What was tlie date of your going into the Navy?
Mr. Benoff. 1945 and 1946. I got out in 1946, worked for Eddie
Cantor, for Joan Davis, then for different programs like Ray Bolger,
Colgate Comedy Hour, 1947 and 1948 on a picture, then I w^ent to
Fanny Brice and the Baby Snooks show, and then in 1949, in Janu-
ary of 1949, 1 began to write a program called Life With Luigi. Some
of' you may have heard that program, and that lasted up until now.
Mr. Tavenner. During how long a period of time were you a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Benoff. I was a member a very short time, Mr. Tavenner.
That is, I was a young man of about 27 or 28 at the time and it was in
1944, for a period, as near as I can estimate, of 3 or 4 months.
Mr. Tavexner. How long a period?
Mr. Benoff. Just for 3 or 4 months.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please tell us the circumstances under
which you joined the group that you were assigned to?
Mr. Benoff. Well, I didn't have any indoctrination or anything
like that that Mr. Lang told you. I am not a political person. I am
a comedy writer, and frankly I didn't have very much interest in
politics, with apologies to you i)eople, and at that time I came out I
wanted to get into pictures. I didn't want to do any radio work and
I was anxious to meet the big ]>icture writers.
Of course, it was a diflicult time for anyone to try to meet such
people. I met a man by the name of Bob Rossen, and I got to know
Mv. Rossen. I was naturally proud of my association with him, be-
cause he was one of the top writers in Hollywood, and one time, as
nearly as I can remember — I want to give the committee all the facts
and everything that I remember, and as close as I can remember, he
said, "Come out to a meeting of the party, of the Communist Party,
and meet a lot of big writers.^'
31747— 53— pt. 1 7
358 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
I was, of course, glad to meet the big writers.
Mr. Tavexxer. As I understand, you were influenced in the action
you took by the prominence of the individual who paid you special
attention.
Mr. Benoff. Absolutely, sir, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of any other persons who were led
into the Communist Party who took that action as the result of the
stature or the prominence of people who were already members of the
party ?
Mr. Benoff. No, Mr. Tavenner, I don't. Truthfully, I practically
know nothing about communism or people who believe in communism
or who are in or out of communism, or anything like that. I never
discussed it.
Mr. Tavenner. During the course of these hearings, particularly
during the early part of it, in 1951, we heard quite a bit about the
objective of tlie Communist Party in Hollywood, namely, to use to
the fullest extent glamor names and personalities in recruiting for
the Communist Party.
Do you have the impression that the interest that was shown by Bob
Rossen in you was a matter of that kind, a thing which attracted you
because of his prominence?
Mr. Benoff. Well, if you mean — I can tell you nobody ever re-
cruited me. There is no such thing as saying, "Here is a piece of
paper. Give me $10," you know. "Here is a slip. Go home." I
mean, "You are in," or anything like that.
I never had anything like that. I just went to the meeting. I don't
know why. Rossen did it, you see. I think it was a matter of friend-
ship, a gesture of friendship. He said, "You w^ill meet big people."
I went there. I attended a very few meetings. The meetings were
dull. They weren't interesting. I don't expect to get laughs every-
where I go, but I didn't get anything, one way or the other.
I was in, like a bathing beauty in a swimming pool, I dipped my toe,
I dunked it and ran. That was the whole thing.
Mr. Tavenner. We have often been told there was no humor in the
Communist Party. Maybe this is some evidence of it.
Mr. Benoff. Well, I never wrote any material.
]Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in the study of the Communist
Party literature while you were a member of the party?
Mr. Benoff. No, sir, not to my recollection I didn't. I know I
didn't.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you study any of the books on dialectic mate-
rialism?
Mr. Benoff. I don't even study books on vegetarianism.
Mr. Tavenner. What brought about the termination of your re-
lationship with the Communist Party?
Mr. Benoff. I never had a termination. Probably the whole thing
was mutual. They were probably as glad to get rid of me as I was to
get out.
Nobody ever asked me to come back and I have never heard from
them since. I have never seen my picture in the post office, saying,
"Reward for that guy." Just nothing.
Mr. Tavenner. You came to Hollywood when, in 1924?
Mr. Benoff. No, 1943, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 359
Mr, Tavenner. Well, according to the statement you just gave, you
were engaged in the same general type of work in New York for a
period of time.
Mr. Benoff. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you affiliated in any manner with the Commu-
nist Party while you were in New York?
Mr. Benoff. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you approached on the subject while in New
York and requested to join the Communist Party?
Mr. Benoff. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. During the period of time that you were a member
of the party or since that time, have you knowingly permitted yourself
to be used in the employment of members of the Communist Party who
were not as well qualified as other persons for the particular task
involved ?
Mr. Benoff. No, sir. It is as much news to me as it is to you. As
a matter of fact, I told you when I was at — at the time I was in I was
in the picture business, trying to be in the picture business. If I had
gotten any help I would have gone a heck of a lot further than I did.
Nobody has helped me. I never tried to help anybody. When I
came out here I tried to get into the picture business. I was a very
small person, you might call me a junior writer, something like that.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were some of the persons whose names you
can recall or give us the names of all the persons you can recall who
were members of this group of the Communist Party to which you
belonged.
Mr. Benoff. Mr. Tavenner, I have gone over this with my counsel,
and everything else. Believe me, really, 10 years is really tough to
remember.
I can remember this, and the reason I remember this is that it seems
to me the meetings I attended I saw these people all the time there.
Ring Lardner, Dalton Trumbo, John Lawson, Richard Collins. I am
sure I saw Richard Collins — I couldn't be positive. Gordon Kalin,
Paul Jarrico, and Albert Maltz.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you had any discussion on the subject of
communism with any of those persons since you withdrew from the
party ?
Mr. Benoff. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe that is all I have to ask, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Witness, as I understand it, your connection with
the party was rather fleeting, so to speak.
Mr. Benoff. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. There was no formal joining and no formal breaking
away from the party.
Mr. Benoff. No; none.
Mr. Clardy. Were you ever called on to contribute, as the other
witnesses have testified, a percentage of what you might earn?
Mr. Benoff. I am glad you asked me that. To my best recollec-
tion I don't remember ever giving 1 cent to dues. I don't even re-
member paying any dues. I don't remember signing a card.
I always considered myself as not a member of the Communist
Party.
360 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Clardt. Well then, as I imclersttind it, what you are trying to
tell us is that you were trying to make your way up the ladder in
your chosen profession aiul this offered opportunity and you availed
yourself of it?
Mr, Benoff. Absolutely, sir. If someone had said to me, "Come
on to a meeting of tli(> llejmblican Party and meet a Democrat," I
wouhl liave gone.
Mr. Clardy. I pi-esume you would have extended that to cover the
other parties as well.
Mv. Bexoff. You know, vou can't sav that, because the Hollvwood
Democratic Party turned out to be a fun organization.
Mr. Jackson. We will get back to the subject at hand.
Mr. Clardt. Have you, since the termination, if we can call it that,
completely disassociated yourself, both in action and spirit, from the
things 3'ou ran across while j'ou were connected with the party, if we
can call it that?
Mr. Benoff. Well, I am glad and I appreciate and thank you for
asking me that, because my name — and we have really gone over
this— my recollection, by looking at lists — and everybody has a list
today — and any place at all, you can't find my name on one organiza-
tion, front, back, sideways, or anything; just nothing. I don't join.
I am not a joiner. I am a stay-outer.
Mr. CLAiu)T. Let's hope that continues. Let's get down to the
serious business of this meeting. Are you convinced today that the
things the Communist Party stands for and which you have discovered
for yourself, both in these meetings and otherwise, are against the
best interests of this Nation?
In other words, are you genuinely converted to the American way of
life, as you should be and you tell us you are?
Mr. Benoff. Congressman Clardy, I wish you wouldn't say am I
converted to the American way of life.
Mr. Clardy. I didn't mean it the way it sounded.
Mr. Benoff. I think, as I have always thought, and you have
heard my program. You know — I don't want to say pro-American.
1 am an American. I don't think anybody can beat America. I don't
think there is any country like America. I don't think we need have
any fear of intervention by other people. I don't think there is any
other system like our system.
Mr. Clardy. Would it be fair to say, sir, you look back on this brief
interlude of a few months with a great deal of regret?
Mr. Benoff. A great deal of regret; yes. It is the kind of thing
I wish had never happened and it is just too bad, you know; it is just
one of those things.
Mr. Clardy. I take it then this is the opportunity, since you have
been named, to express yourself as you have and is welcomed by you.
Mr. Benoff. Not only welcomed, but I would have demanded it.
Mr. Clardy. That is all.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Walter.
INfr. Walter. When Mr. Rossen invited you to attend this meeting,
did he iiulicate to you by joining his gr()U|) you would be assisted in
your ambition to be somebody in this profession ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 361
Mr. Benoft. No, sir. There was never any promise, implied or
otherwise, anybody would have gotten me a job. If that were the
case Mr. Rossen would have tried to get me a job.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. ScHERER. I have no questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle.
ISIr. Doyle. When you "discontinued attending the Communist meet-
ings to which Mr. Eossen had first taken you, sort of sponsored you,
I take it, at the first meeting, did you tell him goodbye or did you tell
him you were disassociating yourself ?
Mr. Benoff. No, sir. What happened at the time was I didn't go
and in a short time after that I went into radio. So, actually, the con-
tacts were different.
Then after that I went into the Navy and the contacts were different
again. When I came back I went into radio again.
Mr. D0YI.E. Thank you. No other questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Frazier.
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Jackson. Thank you very much, Mr. Bennoff, for your testi-
mony. I think you and the Communist Party are about even. You
got no laughs and they got no dues.
Mr. Benoef. That isn't fair. I don't like to leave with somebody
topping me.
Mr. Jackson. That wasn't the purpose. You said, Mr. Benoff, you
would have demanded the opportunity to appear after having been
named. •
I think it is perhaps well to stress again at this time that anyone
who is named and feels that they have been unfairly treated has a
standing invitation from this committee to notify the committee to
that effect and the committee will at the first opportunity give them
an opportunity to be heard. This is a standing rule of the committee.
xVny further questions, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. No further questions.
Mr. Jackson. Thank you, Mr. Benoff.
Mr. Tavenner. Francis Edward Faragoh.
Mr. Faragoh. May I request I not be televised during the hearing?
Mr. Jackson. Do you object to the audio or visual portion?
Mr. P'aragoh. Just the visual portion.
Mr. Jackson. Will the television operators kindly keep the cam-
eras off the witness during the course of his testimony.
Do you solemnlv swear the testimonv you are about to give before
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. FARAGok. I do.
TESTIMONY OF FRANCIS EDWARD FARAGOH, ACCOMPANIED BY
HIS COUNSEL, MORRIS E. COHN
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Faragoh. My name is Francis Edward Faragoh.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please spell your name?
362 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr, Faragoh. F-a-r-a-g-o-h.
IMr. Tavenner. When and ^vllere were you born, IVIr. Faragoh?
Mv. Faragoh. I was born in Hungary, rather, at that time in the
Austrian-Hungarian Empire, in 1895.
]\rr. Tavexxer. When did you come to this country?
Mr. Faragoh. 1909, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ?
Mr, Faragoh. Yes ; I am.
IMr. Tavenner. When were you naturalized ?
]\rr. Faragoh. The year is correct, 1935. I am guessing that it was
in February.
Mr. Tavenner. AVill you advise the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has consisted of?
Mr. Faragoh. Well, I began my formal education in Hungary and
continued there until the age of 14, Upon coming to this country I
attended elementar}'^ and high schools in New York City and also at-
tended the College of the City of New York and Columbia Univer-
sity, That has been my formal education.
]\Ir, Tavenner, Pardon me for my failure to ask you whether or
not you are accompanied by counsel.
]\ir. Faragoh. I am, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record?
Mr. CoiiN. Yes. My name is Morris E. Cohn, of Los Angeles?
Mr. TAMiiNNER. What is your occupation, IVIr. Faragoh?
Mr. Faragoh, I used to be a writer, sir; I am retired.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you retire from your profession?
:Mr, Faragoh, In 1947.
]\Ir. Tavenner. How long did you engage in the business of
writing?
Mr. Faragoh. W^ell, this is not going to be particularly accurate.
I think it will serve the purpose to say since 1920, and continuing
until 1047.
Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time, did you reside in Los
Angeles or in this vicinity?
Mr. Faragoh, No, I came to Los Angeles in 1029,
]\Ir. Tavenner. You have remained here since that time ?
]Mr. Faragoh. No ; I have not. About 5 years ago I left Los An-
geles, a little over 5 years ago, as a matter of fact,
Mr, Tavenner, Mr. Faragoh, during the testimony of Mr. Sidney
Buchman before the Committee on Un-American Activities, Septem-
ber 25, 1951, Mr. Buchman took occasion to refer to you. He stated
that he had read from the testimony of certain witnesses, who had
appeared before the committee, that you had been at one time a mem-
ber of the Communist Party. And in referring to you he used this
language, "Mr. Farajroh, to the best of my knowledge and by state-
ments from time to time, I can't place them exactly, when or where,
but I believe that Mr. Francis Faragoh is not a Communist and never
has been."
After making that statement I asked Mr. Sidney Buchman if he had
ever attended a Communist Party meeting in your home.
His reply was that he had never attended a Communist Party meet-
ing in your home at which you were present.
COJVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 363
Now, my first question is, did you at any time attend a Communist
Party meeting at which — either in your home or at any other place,
at which Mr. Sidney Buchman was present?
Mr. Faragoh. Will you phrase that question again ? I missed the
first part of it. I am sorry.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time attend a Communist Party
meeting in your home or at any other place, at which Mr. Sidney
Buchman was present?
Mr. Fail\goh. I shall decline and do decline to answer this question,
sir, basing my declination on the fifth amendment, on that provision
of which protects me from acting as a witness against myself.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Did you discuss with Mr. Siclney Buchman prior
to his appearance as a witness before this committee in September
1951, what his testimony would be with regard to you?
Mr. Faragoh. May I consult counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
(At this point Mr. Faragoh conferred with Mr. Cohn.)
Mr. Faragoh. Sir, I shall decline to reply to this question, inas-
much as Mr. Sidney Buchman has appeared before this committee,
and my testimony might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you refuse to testify as to whether you and
Mr. Buchman conferred before his testimony was given before this
committee ?
Mr, Faragoh. Well, inasmuch as Mr. Buchman is connected with
that question, I do decline to answer this question as well.
Mr. Jackson. Your declination is on the same ground as previously
stated, the provisions against possible self-incrimination?
Mr. Faragoh. That is right, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When was the last time you saw Mr. Sidney Buch-
man and talked to him ?
Mr. Faragoh. This again involves Sidney Buchman, and I shall
again decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
Communist Party meetings were held at any time in your home?
Mr. Faragoh. There again, sir
Mr. Tavenner. To your knowledge.
Mr. Faragoh. Here again, sir, inasmuch as it mentions an organi-
zation which has been listed as subversive, I shall decline to answer
on the ground of the fifth amendment, of the same provision which
I gave before.
Mr. Tavenner. I want to call to your attention, Mr. Faragoh, for
the purpose of giving you an opportunity to make any explanation
you desire, or to deny the statements as being true, the testimony of
Mr. Dmytryk and Mr. Martin Berkeley, and Mrs. Meta Keis Rosen-
berg, relating to you, and in the course of Mr. Dmytryk's testimony
before this committee on April 25, 1951, Mr. Dmytryk was asked
to tell the committee what he knew with regard to a group of the
Communist Party to which he had been transferred.
Mr. Dmytryk's testimony was as follows :
I was transferred to a special group. This was toward the end of the Com-
munist Political Association. I don't know exactly why this special group was
organized.
I was told later— I believe I heard it at the original hearings — they were called
the Davis group.
Mr. Tavenner. You heard it was called the Davis group?
364 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Dmytuyk. They started naming the fzroups after famous dead Commu-
nists. They wouldn't use live ones because they didn't know how they would
wind up. That group met in San Fernando Valley.
They were people either con.sidered super secret or super prestige. I attended
two meetings. 1 have no idea what the ultimate purpose of the group was,
but I know it was a secret thing.
I attended two meetings of this group. One meeting was at Sidney Buchman's
house, although Sidney Buchman was not present at the meeting.
Mr. Tavknnfr. Can you give us the circumstances under which you met at
tliis houseV
:\Ir. Dmytuyk. I can't say exactly, excejtt Adrian Scott had been called and
told to bring me along and come to a certain person's house. We went tliere
and found no one there, and a servant told us to go to Sidney Buchman's house,
and we did. Sidney BTicliman was not there.
In this group were John Howard Lawson, Adrian Scott and myself, a writer
named Francis — that is the masculine Francis — Faragoh and his wife Elizabeth
Faragoh, and a couple I had never met before —
and so on.
Mr. Martin Berkeley, in the course of his testimony, which I have
already read during these hearin<2;s to another witness, Witness Danny
Dare, identified you and a ])erson by the name of Irving J. White as
members of the Comnninist Party.
And as I mentioned a moment ago, the witness Mrs. Meta Reis
Rosenberg identified you as a member of the Communist Party, along
with Herbert Biberman, Dorothy Tree, and her husband Michael LTris.
I would like to ask you whether or not any phase of the testimony
of these three witnesses relating to you is untrue?
Mr. CoHN. INIay I confer just a moment?
Mr. Tamsnner. Yes.
(At this point Mr. Cohn conferred with Mr. Faragoh.)
Mr. Faragoh. I shall like to request you withdraw that question
for the following reason : I am — rather. I understand from your read-
ing of the testimony of certain Avitnesses that some people have testified
that I have been a member of the Communist Party and other wit-
nesses have specifically denied that I have ever been, both parties
under oath,
Mr. Jackson. Counsel, may I suggest that should be broken down
into individual statements.
Mr. Ta"venner. Let me get the question.
Mr. Jackson. Your question has combined all these.
Mr. Ta'venner. My first question, then, will relate solely to the
testimony of Mr. Dmytryk, who testified, as I think you will recall
from my reading of his testimony.
Mr. Faragoh. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. To the effect that you were in attendance at this
Communist Party meeting which he attended of a group which was
known as the special group over in the San Fernando Valley.
Mr. Faragoh. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there anything about that statement or that
testimony of Mr. Dmytryk which was untrue?
Mr. Faragoh. Again I must make the same request to you, sir.
Inasmuch as I have the testimony against me and I have some testi-
mony to the contrary of that, I am in the position where if I answer
your questions I will deny what one or the other party testified to,
and I believe that is a very perilous position for any witness.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 365
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you predicated your request upon testimony
having- been given by another person that you were not a member
of the Communist Party. To wliat testimony are you referring, if
I understood you correctly ?
Mr. Faragoh. Well, I have read the record, sir, and I am referring
there to Mr. Sidney Buchman.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I read Mr. Sidney Buchman's statement to
you, which was that "Mr. Faragoh, to the best of my knowledge and
by statements from time to time, I can't place them exactly when or
Avhere, but I feel Mr. Francis Faragoh is not a Communist and never
has been."
Did you construe that as proof of your contention that you never
were a member of the party ?
Mr. Faragoh. Sir, when you nse the word "proof," I believe it is
proof to the same degree as the testimony of the other witnesses,
Mr. TxVVENNER. No. The fact that one person says that from his
conversations he doesn't believe you to be a member of the Commu-
nist Party, is not at all the equivalent of a statement by another person
that you were present in a Communist Party meeting with him and
that you were a member of the Communist Party.
One is a negative statement and the other is a positive statement.
I mean I don't w^ant to argue that with you.
Mr. Faragoh. Nor do I wish to argue it with you, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You have asked me to withdraw the question, and
I can't do that, Mr. Faragoh. There is no reason why you should
not be asked that question any more than any other of the hundreds
of witnesses who have answered similar questions.
Mr. Faragoh. Well, I ask for my counsel to address the chair.
Mr. Jackson. No, I am sorry. Your counsel cannot address the
chair. Under the rules of the committee your counsel is here for the
purpose of lending advice and assistance only on matters of your
constitutional rights.
Mr. Faragoh. Well, sir, these happen to be very special circum-
stances and a very special situation.
Mr. Jackson, t am sorry, but I can't permit counsel.
Mr. Faragoh. What would be your present ruling on my request
that he withdraw the question ?
Mr. Jackson. You have been asked a question by counsel. If
I were called upon to rule on it, I would direct that you answer. The
testimony of Mr. Buchman, it appears to me, is a conclusion of Mr.
Buchman's, and I don't know that any individual is in a position to
state definitely that any other person is not a member of the Com-
munist Party.
However, the testimony of Dmytryk and the others who have been
mentioned by counsel contains direct references to your alleged
membership in the Communist Party. That is the positive testimony
which has been put in the form of a direct question to you, so I would
direct that you answer the question asked by counsel.
Mr. Faragoh. May I just hear the question again?
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the testimony of Mr. Dmytryk that
I read to you a few moments ago ?
Mr. Faragoh. I do, sir, but not to the extent of being able to an-
swer without your reminding me of it.
366 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Taat:xner. Then I will reread the testimony. I will read this
portion of Mr. Dmytryk's testimony :
They started naming the groups after famous dead Communists. They would
not use live ones because they didn't know how they would wind up. One group —
meaning the group to which he was assigned, Mr. Dmytryk was
assigned —
met in the San Fernando Valley. They were people who were considered super-
secret or superprestige. I attended two meetings. I had no idea what the
ultimate purpose of the group was, but I know it was a secret thing.
I attended two meetings of this group. One meeting was at Sidney Buch-
man's house, although Sidney Buchman was not present at the meeting.
Question. Can you give us the circumstances under which you met at this
house?
Mr. Dmttrytc. I can't say exactly, except Adrian Scott had been called and
told to bring me along and to come to a certain person's house. We went there
and found no one was there, and the servants told us to go to Sidney Buchman's
bouse, and we did. Sidney Buchman was not there.
In this group were John Howard Lawson, Adrian Scott, and myself, a writer
named Francis, that is the masculine, Francis Faragoh, and his wife Elizabeth
Faragoh.
And so forth.
Now, is there any portion of that statement, of that testimony by
Mr. Dmytryk, which to your knowledge is untrue?
Mr. Faragoh. Sir, I decline to answer this question on the grounds
of the same provision.
Mr, Tavenner. Mr. Martin Berkeley identified you as a member
of the Communist Party. Was his identification correct or was it
false?
Mr. Faragoh. It is the same question and I give the same answer,
sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Meta Reis Rosenberg identified you along with
Samuel Ornitz, Herbert Biberman, Dorothy Tree, ancl her husband
Michael Uris, as members of the Communist Party.
Was any part of that testimony, to your knowledge, untrue ?
Mr. Faragoh. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Faragoh. I decline to answer that question on the ground of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Faragoh. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Are you contributing to the Communist Party at
present ?
Mr. Faragoh. This is the same answer, sir.
Mr. Clardy. You mean you are standing on the fifth amendment
again?
Mr, Faragoh. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. That is all right. You may just repeat the same
ground.
Mr. Faragoh. I am sorry.
Mr. Clardy. That is all right. I am just trying to help you out a
little and shorten this up.
Do you subscribe to or do you receive the Communist Daily Worker?
Mr. Faragoh. Will you give me a moment?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 367
Mr. Clardt. Yes ; you may confer with counsel any time.
(At this point Mr. Faragoh conferred with Mr. Cohn.)
Mr. Faragoh. Well, as a matter of fact, I do not, sir, and I was
merely asking my counsel whether this would fall under the provis-
ions of the fifth amendment. In that case I would have refused to
answer.
Mr. Clardt. Have you ever received it ?
Mr. Faragoh. I shall refuse to answer that question, fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Clardt. Do you belong to any organization any member of
which to your knowledge is a Communist ?
Mr. Faragoh. Just one second, sir, please.
Mr. Clardt. You may consult him.
(At this point Mr. Faragoh conferred with Mr. Cohn.)
Mr. Faragoh. I will tell you why I am not answering without con-
ferring. This question is almost impossible to answer, because that
would indicate that almost anything, any organization of any descrip-
tion, I would have to know independently the makeup of the mem-
bership.
Nevertheless, specifically, on this question, I wish again to use my
rights under the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Jackson. You decline to answer.
Mr. Clardt. Are you acquainted with any person you know to be
a Communist?
Mr. Faragoh, That is the same question, sir, and the same answer.
Mr. Clardt. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Walter.
Mr. Walter. You said you came to California in 1929 and with
the exception of 5 years have resided here continuously since that
time.
Mr. Faragoh. That is right, sir.
Mr. Walter. During what period of time did you reside elsewhere?
Mr. Faragoh. I am sorry. I am residing elsewhere now. In other
words, I left Hollywood in 1948, in the month of February.
Mr. Walter. Between 1929 and 1948 you resided continuously in
Los Angeles or Hollywood?
Mr. Faragoh. No; I made some trips to Hollywood and I made
trips to the East and I stayed there for extended periods. I cannot
give you the specific dates, however. This period I will put between
1931 and let us say 1942 or 1943, without wishing to stand on those
dates for pinpoint accuracy.
Mr. Walter. That is all.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever write anything for the Communist
Party ? You are a retired writer ; is that right ?
Mr. Faragoh. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. During the time that you were writing actively, did
you ever write anything for the Communist Party ?
Mr. Faragoh. This again falls under the provisions of the fifth
amendment, and I shall decline to answer.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever receive any compensation or anything
of value from the Communist Party ?
Mr. Faragoh. That is the same question, and the same answer.
Mr. Scherer. You refuse to answer ?
368 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Faragoti. Yes.
Mr. SciiERER. If you were not a member of the Communist Party,
would you be willing to so state, Mr. Witness?
Mr. Faragoti. I think — may I confer with counsel?
(At this point, Mr. Faragoli conferred with Mr. Cohn.)
Mr. FARA(;()n. In consultation with counsel, I have come to the deci-
sion which I grabbed for before. That is a hypothetical and specula-
tive question, and I wish to decline on the ground of the fifth amend-
ment, because it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Jackson. You are under no compulsion to answer.
Mr. Far.\goii. I understand, but I do decline.
Mr. SciiERER. Now, you asked Mr. Tavenner to withdraw a certain
question he asked you just a few minutes ago, and I believe the basis
for your asking him to withdraw that question was the fact that two
or three witnesses had said that you were a member of the party, and
another witness testified that you were not a member of the Communist
Party. Is that right? Is that statement correct?
Mr. Faragoii. That is substantially right; yes.
Mr. SciiERER. All right. Xow I would like, ISIr. Tavenner, for you
to read Mv. Sidney Buchman's testimony to the witness again.
Mr. Tavenner (reading) :
Mr. BucHMAN. IMr. Faragoh, to the best of my knowledge and by statements
from time to time — I can't place them exactly when or where, but I believe that
Mr. Francis Farasoh is not a Communist and never has been.
Mr. ScHERER. That is the testimony which you said indicated that
Mr. Buchman had testified that you were not a member of the Com-
munist Party, and was the basis for your asking that the question be
withdrawn; is that correct?
Mr. Faragoh. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. ScuERER. Now, will you tell the committee whether or not Mr.
Buchman's statement is true?
INIr. Faragoh. I decline to answer that a,uestion on the same grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scrip:RER. That is all.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. You came to the United States, Mr. Faragoh. at the
age of 14 ?
Mr. Faragoh. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. You came with your parents?
Mr. Faragoh. Yes; I did. That is my father.
Mr. Doyle. You were naturalized in 1935?
Mr. Faragoh. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. Either before j^ou were naturalized or since, did you
engage in any foreign travel to any foreign country ?
Mr. Faragoh. I apjilied for a visa in 19.31 to go to England, but
I didirt go. I may have been to Tiajiuma, I wouldn't swear to it, sir.
Otherwise, I can very specifically state that I have not been abroad.
]\Ir. Doyle. You were active from 1920 to 1947?
Mr. Faragoh. In motion pictures.
Mr. Doyle. In writing?
Mr. Faragoh. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Have you done any writing since you retired?
Mr. Faragoti. Well, I am ti^ving to work on a play, but it is not
current work, and I am not employed.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA 369
Mr. Doyle. Since yon became an adnlt and were naturalized in this
country, have you ever given any lectures on any subjects?
Mv. Faragoh. On any subjects, sir?
Mr. Doyle. Or given any classes, instruction or group instruction of
any sort ? I mean as a teacher or instructor?
Mr. Faragoh. I am searching my memory. I never gave a course
of any kind.
Mr. Doyle. Well, it would not have to be a course.
Mr. Faragoh. I am sorrj^ You also included the word "lecture"?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. Have you lectured on any subject, in other words,
to a group, either large or small ? Well, let me be more specific.
Mr. FAR.VG0H. Please be.
Mr. Doyle. You may want to stand on your constitutional rights.
Since becoming an American citizen in 1935, have you given any speech
in support of the objectives of the Communist Party of America ?
(At this point Mr. Faragoh conferred with Mr. Cohn.)
Mr. Faragoh. No, sir, I never have.
Mr. Doyle. Have you ever written any pamphlet or any booklet
in support of the objectives of the American Communist Party?
Mr. Faragoh. One second, sir.
(At this point Mv. Faragoh conferred with Mr. Cohn.)
Mr. Faragoh. I think I am ready for my answer now. I have never
written anything of the nature that you have mentioned.
I wish to exclude from that possibly, and only possibly, any writing
of mine which may have coincided with any single objective or group
of objectives of the Communist Party in any one period, although, as
I state, I am not aware of having written any such thing.
Mr. Doyle. Have you ever used any other name in writing, other
than your legal name ?
Mr. Faragoh. I used the name of Edward Francois in the early
twenties, I think I might say before 1925, for some potboiler magazines.
Mr. Doyle. You say you are writing a play in your retirement.
Was that the nature of your writing before you retired, in connection
with the entertainment field ?
Mr. Faragoh. I was doing work on motion pictures.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. I believe you stated you were retired ; is that correct?
Mr. Faragoh. Yes.
Mr. Frazier. If you are retired, I am at a loss to understand why
you decline either to state that you are a member of the Communist
Party or that you are not a member of the Communist Party. Are you
laboring under the impression that it is a violation of law to be a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Far^^goh. I think I gave the answer to that when I answered the
original questions by advice of counsel.
Mr. Frazier. You decline to answer?
Mr. Faragoh. I decline to answer.
Mr. Frazier. Have you ever voted for a Communist candidate for
Presideiit of the United States ?
Mr. P^\r,\goh. I think, sir, that that would involve the secrecv of the
ballot. "^
Mr. Frazier. Not necessarily.
370 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Faragoh. And I stan^ on the fifth amendment in that connec-
tion.
]\Ir. Frazier. All right.
Mr. Jackson. Are you finished?
Mr. Frazier. I have finished.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, do you have anything more?
Mr. Tavenner. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jackson. The committee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock
tomorrow morning. The witness is excused.
(Whereupon, at 4: 10 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 10 a. m.,
Wednesday, March 25, 1953.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES AREA— PART 1
WEDNESDAY, MAKCH 25, 1953
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
PUBLIC HEARING
The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to ad-
journment at 10 : 08 a. m., in room 518, Federal Building, Hon. Har-
old H. Velde (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman), Donald L. Jackson, Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer,
Francis E. Walter, Morgan M. Moulder (appearance noted in tran-
script), Clyde Doyle (appearance noted in transcript), and James B.
Frazier, Jr.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Louis J.
Russell, chief investigator; Thomas W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk;
Raphael I. Nixon, director of research; and William A. Wheeler,
investigator.
Mr. Velde. The committee will come to order.
Miss Reporter, show that present are Mr. Jackson, Mr. Clardy, Mr.
Scherer, Mr. Walter, Mr. Frazier, and Mr. Velde (chairman), a
quorum of the full committee.
Mr. Counsel, do you have a witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I would like to call at this time the wit-
ness who was put over until today by the direction of the chairman
on Monday, Mr. Edward Huebsch.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this com-
mittee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Htjebsch. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD HUEBSCH, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUN-
SEL, WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL
Mr. Velde, At the request of the witness it was decided by the com-
mittee that this hearing would not be televised. I ask now that the
television cameras cease and desist, and we will proceed with the
regular meeting.
Mr. Huebsch. Sir, I did not so request.^
Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, before we go any further, I am going
to ask this witness if you think it is funny to wear the button you
' See p. 318 for references to a motion filed for this witness by his counsel, and in
which the witness concurred, against the use of television while he was on the stand.
The committee considered the motion in executive session and excused the witness until
a day of the hearing when television would not be used.
371
372 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
have on. I assure you it is contemptuous. You are now appearing^
before a connnittee of the United States Congress, and I resent that
very, very much.
Mr. HuEiiScii. Sii, this is in a way a resolution, in the form of a
resoUition before the Democratic Members of Congress.
Mr. Walter. I resent very much having anybody appear with a
button like that on.
Mr. IIuEHScJi. There are other buttons here.
Mr. Velde. I think we can resume.
Mr. HuEBSCH. Sir, I have not asked and do not ask that the tele-
vision cameras be turned off during my appearance here. I have
asked that my subpena be quashed for several legal grounds. And
I do not know at the moment whether this committee has ruled on
the motion tha( I made through my attorney.
Mr. Velde. The committee does not rule on motions. The com-
mittee just makes directions, and I have made the direction that the
television cameras be turned off so that we might proceed with this
meeting, and that is at the request of the witness himself, that he
not be televised.
Mr. HuEiiSGH. That is not true.
Mr. Velde. And that the audio also be turned off.
Mr. HuEBSCii. I did not so request, and I do not so request.
Mr. Walter. They are turned off, and you are not going to have
an opportunity to put on the kind of an act you came here prepared
to put on.
Mr. HuEBSCH. I came here in answer to a subpena.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. HuEBScii. My name, sir, is Edward Huebsch, H-u-e-b-s-c-h.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Huebsch?
Mr. HuEBSCiL I was born in New York City, sir, on February 20
of 1914.
Mr. Tam^.nner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Huebsch. I am, sir. But, sir, I would like to point out that
counsel's motion has been denied here, not even ruled upon, and it-
seems to me that my rights and the rights of counsel have been
violated.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the
record ?
Mr. Esterman. I hesitate to open my mouth, but I will identify
myself.
Mr. Walter. I don't think it is necessary. We all know who you
are.
Mr. Esterman. William B. Esterman.
Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.
Mr. Jackson. I think the matter of this television motion should
be made ])erfectly clear, Mr. Chairman. The other day, when the
present witness was called before the conunittee, a motion was filed,
not only that the witness not be televised, but that all television equip-
ment in the room be removed during the course of his interrogation.
( Representative Clyde Doyle entered the hearing room at this point,
10:i;^a. m.)
Mr. Jackson. Acting in accordance with that motion, the com-
mittee retired, as you will recall, and took up the matter and came
back and made the ruling. I think it should be made perfectly clear
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 373
to all concerned that the reason there is no television here today is
because of the motion that was tiled by counsel on, I believe, last
Monday.
Mr. HuEBSCH. If yon would have the reporter read the record back
of my remarks there, I believe you will find I did not object to being
televised. I ask you to read the record of my remarks and also of
the* attorney's motion which was filed with this committee.
Mr. Jackson. The conunittee is acting upon the motioji of your
counsel, who is presumed to speak for you in the matter of the
television.
Mr. HuEBScir. Sir, the motion was to quash the subpena. I did
agree to appear on television.
Mv. Velde. Proceed.
]Mr. HuEBSGH. I do agree.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee, please, a general
statement of your formal education training, Mr. Huebsch?
(At this point Mr. Huebsch conferred with Mr. Marshall and Mr.
Esterman.)
Mr. HcTEBSCH. My formal education, sir, was limited to public
school and high school in the city of New York.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation?
Mr. Huebsch. Well, sir, I would like an understanding with the
Chair. Representative Velde is the author of bills and a couple of
books. I don't believe he is qualified to conduct an impartial hearing.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer my question, please?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Witness, you were asked a question, and the answer
can be given very simply.
Mr. Huebsch." We are now having an unusual type of hearing,
and I submit, sir, that you are the author of a book
Mr. Velde. That is in the nature of argument, and not an answer.
Mr. Walter. And not the truth.
Mr. Huebsch. I will submit the bill. I will submit a copy of the
bill as a document in this record.
Mr. Jackson. I move that the remarks of the witness having to do
wdth this extraneous matter be stricken from the record, Mr. Chair-
man, as not being pertinent to this inquiry and not being responsive
to the questions that are being asked.
Mr. Velde. It is so ordered. All the matter which is not responsive
to the question, which is volunteered only, will be stricken from the
record.
Mr. Huebsch. With your permission, I would like to inquire from
the chairman
Mr. Clardt. Mr. Chairman, a point of order. There is a question
pending which he has not answered.
Mr. Velde. That voluntary remark will be stricken from the record,
too.
Mr. Huebsch. The question is what was my occupation, sir. My
occupation is not an occupation that does not carry with it certain
responsibilities. In the discharge of those responsibilities 1 am try-
ing to answ^er the question.
^Ir. Walter. We are not asking about your employment with the
Communist Party. We are asking about what you do that you admit
that you do.
31747— 53— pt. 1 8
374 COMMUXIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. HuEBSCii. Mr. Congressman, if you will put your question in
proper terms, I will try to answer your question, too.
Mr. Tavennkr. Let me ask you the quesHon in this form : It seems
to be taking so long for you to answer. Have you ever been a screen
writer?
Mr. HuEBSCii. I. sir, have been and am a screen writer.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you become a screen writer ?
Mr. HuEBSCH. I became a screen writer 10 days after my discharge
from the Army in 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to 1946 you were in the Army, the United
States Army ?
Mr. HuEBSCH. Prior to January 10, j^es ; I was.
Mr. Tavenner. How long had you been in the United States Army?
Mr. HuEBSCii. I entered the Army late in '42. I volunteered for
the Army right after Pearl Harbor.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you come from New York to Los An-
geles ?
Mr. HuEBSCii. I came to Los Angeles directly — I spent a few days
with my family in New York and then immediately flew out here
to California.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that your first residence in California?
Mr. Huebsch. Yes ; it was, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you at any time a member of the Communist
Party prior to j^our coming to Los Angeles, at the time you have
indicated ?
Mr. Huebsch. Well, sir
(At this point Mr. Huebsch conferred with Mr. Marshall and Mr.
Esterman.)
Mr. Huebsch. This question goes to the issue of my right to attend
meetings, and if I submit an answer — I cannot answer that because
Congress cannot tell me what meetings I should go to and which I
should not go to. That is the question of the first amendment.
Now, sir, in these days of hysteria. Congress has passed the Smith
Act, which put a man in this position: They violate his rights to
go to a meeting and they say to him, If you say, "Yes, I went to a
meeting," then the wagon is waiting outside. So you can't force me
to make an answer to this question.
Now, if a man says "No'' to a question like this, j^ou simply force
him to abandon the right of going to any meeting or to any group
of people where free speech is permitted.
Mr. Doyle. You don't agree with the Supreme Court of the United
States, do you ?
Mr. Walter. I don't think we ought to listen to all this wrangling.
Let's have an answer to the question and then proceed.
Mr. Velde. It is the opinion of the Chair that we have gone into
that subject far enough, that you have rambled far enough. It is in
the nature of an argument, one that we have heard many times
before, from witnesses just about like you.
]\Ir. Walter. And better qualified.
Mr. Velde. And we are not interested at all in hearing any more of
that type of argument.
I now direct you to answer the question put to you by counsel.
Mr. Huebsch. Sir, I am answering this question in a rough layman's
language, about what all this means to me. I ask you to bear with
COMLIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 375
me. The grounds that I have spoken of so far deal with free speech
and the right not to be compelled to give up this free speech in the
face of hysterical laws condemned by the CIO and the A. F. of L.
I 'finally state to you that you, my Congressmen, are my representa-
tives, that you must listen to my views and that you must abide by
them.
Mr. Walter. I think it would be better to listen to the Kremlin. It
would be more logical.
Mr. HuEBSCH. Sir, you are listening to the Constitution.
Mr. Walter. Well, I know something about that myself.
Mr. Jackson, We are listening to something that sounds very much
like an editorial from the Daily Worker.
Mr. Huebsch. Well, the Daily News recently ran several editorials,
the like of which you don't appear to approve of.
Now, sir, I have told you as clearly as I can that I assert my rights
as a citizen under the first, fifth, ninth and tenth amendments, and
that my answer to this question is neither yes nor is it no, and that you
cannot infer or make anything other of it than that.
Is that right, counsel ?
Mr. Esterman. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Therefore, you decline to answer the question ?
Mr. Huebsch. I have said what I have to say. My answer is neither
yes or no, asserting my rights as a citizen. You can't make anything
more of it than that, for all of these grounds which I have gone
into, and I am prepared to go into at great length, dealing with all
of the legislation, the question of what the Supreme Court has ruled
and what it may rule in the future.
Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer the question ?
Mr. Huebsch. I am glad you asked me this, Congressman Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. I'm sorry I asked it. I will withdraw the question and
1 will let counsel ask it.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Huebsch, the only recognized legal ground for
refusing to answer the question which you have assigned is that of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Huebsch. By whose recognition ?
Mr. Tavenner. By what provision of the fifth amendment do you
refuse to answer ?
Mr. Huebsch. By whose recognition ?
Mr. Tavenner. By the Supreme Court of the United States.
Mr. Huebsch. Would you please quote that document to me wherein
only the fifth amendment is recognized by the Constitution ?
Mr. Tavenner. That wasn't my statement.
Mr. Huebsch. You said it was only recognized
Mr. Tavenner. I asked you what provision of the fifth amendment
is it that you rely on as the basis for your refusal to answer.
Mr. Huebsch. Now I am going to tell you again
Mr. Tavenner. You haven't told us the first time yet as to that.
Mr. Huebsch. I believe I have made it quite clear. If I haven't
made it clear, I intend to make it clear. I am no lawyer. I am a
writer. I told you that for many years I have gone to meetings. I
have worked to improve the conditions of writers
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the answer is not at all responsive
to my question. May I ask that the witness be confined to answer the
376 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THi: LOS ANGELES AREA
(luestion I asked, and that is merely what provision of the fifth amend-
ment is it that the witness relies upon as the basis for his refusal to
answer.
(At this point Mr. Iluebsch conferred with Mr. Marshall and Mr.
Esterman.)
Mr. HuEBSCii. Sir, would you have tlie reporter repeat the last
question ?
Mr. Tavexxel. Will you read the question to the witness, please ?
(The question was read.)
Mr. IIuEBScii. Now, I have had a conference with distinguished
counsel, and they say. to boil it down, that every court permits a wit-
ness to explain his answer. 1 am sure that this connnittee does not
rise above the courts, and I would like to make such explanation.
Mr. Velde. As long as that explanation is not in the nature of argu-
ment or volnntai-y statements such as the witness has been making
during this hearing, the witness will be permitted to make a legal ex-
planation of his refusal to answer.
Mr. Huebsch. To King (iieorge III, I am sure, all constitutional
provisions were questionable, but I don't think we are ready to crown
King Harold Velde here.
Mr. Jackson. I resent that, avS a member of the committee. If you
can't show any respect for the Congress of the United States, the best
thing you can do is to keep quiet. Leave personalities out of it.
AFr. Hi^EBSCH. I will explain my answer.
Mr. Jacksox. You can't explain that statement. I will ask to have
it i-emoved.
Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, I am not interested as an individual
member of this committee in what the man's reason is for declining
to answer the question, and I am sick and tired of these typical Com-
munist tactics. This is a very familiar picture, and it seems to me that
Ave are just wasting our time asking this witness a lot of questions.
Let's find out two or three things and excuse him and get on with our
business.
]Mr. Velde. As chairman, I heartily concur in what the Congress-
man from Pennsylvania has just stated.
Will you answ^er the question asked of you?
Mr. Huebsch. I was asked to explain mj previous answer, which
was
Mr. Ta\t.xxer. You wei-e not asked to explain anything. You were
asked to state what provision it was of the fifth amendment on which
you base your decl ination to answer the question.
Mr. Walter. What dilTerence does it make ?
Mr. Tavexner. The only difference that it makes, I believe, is that
the witness explained in great detail and great length numerous
amendments, but referred in such a general way to the fifth amend-
ment that it would lead one to think that he was not actually relying
upon it, and that is the only legal basis as far as this committee is con-
cerned, I think, for his refusal to answer the question.
Mr. Clardy. May I suggest you ask him point blank whether or
not he is relying upon that part which deals with self-incrimination ;
in, other words, is he not answering because he is afraid he will in-
criminate himself ?
]\Ir. Huebsch. Sir, there is a question pending. I ask that the re-
porter read the question.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 377
Mr. Clardy. I didn't address anything to you. I suggested to
counsel that he ask that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, in the light of the committee mem-
ber's request, I will withdraw the question and put it in another form,
Mr. Huebsch, when you stated that you were relying upon the fifth
amendment as the basis for your refusal to answer, did you mean to
rely upon that provision which grants immunity from testifying or
privilege against testifying as to any matter which might incriminate
one?
(At this point Mr. Huebsch conferred with Mr. Marshall and Mr.
Esterman.)
Mr. Esterman. Just a moment.
Mr. Huebsch. My answer is, sir, that in the face of unjust laws
passed by the Congress
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I move that the voluntary statement
be stricken from the record.
INIr. Velde. Yes ; the voluntary statement will be stricken.
Mr. Huebsch. That is not voluntary, sir. That is not voluntary.
The Congressman knows better than that.
Mr. Clardy. I move those exclamations be stricken from the record.
Mr. Velde. They will be so stricken from the record.
Will the witness please proceed to deal with the question, which
is very simple and can be answered.
Mr. Huebsch. I am dealing here with reality of 1953, sir. Now,
let me answer in terms of these realities, of the situation which I face.
Mv. Jackson. I ask that the extraneous matter be stricken, Mr.
Chairman.
]\Ir. Frazier. You are tiring out the patience of the whole committee.
]Mr. Velde. It will be stricken out of the record.
Mv. Huebsch. I wish the committee would have a little more
patience.
Mr. Jackson. I would like to ask that that remark be stricken, and
certainly no committee could be any more patient with obvious con-
tempt for this committee, for the Congress of the United States and
for the American people, the contempt which you have shown this
morning. You were asked a very straightforward question. You
have had ample opportunity to use this committee table as a sounding
board for the Communist Party.
Now, having accomplished that, will you kindly answer the ques-
tion which has been put to you ?
Mr. Clardy. You may answer it "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Jackson. I assure you that from this point on that I am going
to ask that every single statement which you make which is not re-
sponsive to the question be physically stricken from the record.
Mr. Walter. I object to that because I want it all in the record,
because it clearly shows that this man is in contempt of the Congress
of the United States, and therefore I am going to oppose Mr. Jack-
son's position.
Mr. Jackson. Understanding the gentleman's reasons, and sym-
pathizing with them, I withdraw my request.
Mr, Clardy. I ask that he be directed to answer "yes" or "no," be-
cause that question will permit of that kind of answer.
Mr. Velde. Yes. The witness is so dinicted to answer that ques-
tion "yes" or "no."
378 COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. EsTERMAN, Answer "yes" or "no?"
Mr. Velde. Yes.
(At this point Mr. Huebsch conferred with Mr. Marshall and Mr..
Esterman.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in recess for 5 minutes, which
will give counsel ample opportunity to find, I am sure, whatever they
are looking for.
(Short recess was taken.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will come to order.
Is the witness ready to answer the question ?
Mr. Huebsch. Since there has been a recess, let's start with the
question again, and I will try and frame a response.
Mr. Tavenner. Will the reporter read the question?
(Whereupon, the following question was read by the reporter:
"When you stated that you were relying upon the fifth amendment
as the basis for your refusal to answer, did you mean to rely upon
that provision which grants immunity from testifying or privilege
against testifying as to any matter which might incriminate one?")
Mr. Huebsch. I now want to have, in my own language
Mr. Velde. Does the witness remember that the Chair directed him
to answer "yes" or "no" ?
Mr. Huebsch. The Chair directed me to answer "yes" or "no" to
a question? I am instructed by counsel that the Chair cannot in-
struct me to answer "yes" or "no" to a question, especially since I
want to respond by reading as my own language the fifth amendment :
No person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime
unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising
in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service, in time
of war or public danger ; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense
to be twice put in jeopardy of life and limb; nor shall be compelled in any
criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor to be deprived of life, liberty,
or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken
for public use without just compensation.
Mr. Walter. Now that you have read the Constitution, I am sure
that you will be willing to answer the question, because you see that
the privilege against testifying is in any criminal matter, and this is
not a criminal matter.
Mr. Huebsch. That is not true. The courts have held to the con-
trary. I wish, sir, to add also to my statement, to my answer, that
part of Judge Yankwich's decision — these are legal grounds, sir.
These are legal grounds, sir.
Mr. Velde. The committee is not interested in that. Again this
is purely a voluntary statement and in the nature of argument.
Mr. Huebsch. Are you waiving aside the ruling of a judge of the
United States court ?
Mr. Velde. The Chair directs the witness to answer the question
of counsel.
Mr. Huebsch. It is in response to why I have answered in the way
I have answered. I am basing myself on part of a ruling made in
the Federal court., I believe in the ninth circuit.
COlVEVniNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 379
Mr. Jackson. It isn't necessary for you to read precedents or read
the findings into the case. All that is necessary for you to do is to
say "yes" or "no" in answer to the question.
Mr. HuEBscH. I do it in my own language, sir.
Mr. Jackson. Your own language? Mr. Chairman, from now on
I am going to renew my motion, that anything extraneous be stricken.
It is not responsive.
Mr. Doyle. I might make this observation to the witness: There
is no decision by a Federal judge that supersedes the United States
Constitution. You have read the fifth amendment. I think that
would be far more important, and the only thing you need. If you
stand on that
Mr. HuEBSCH. I agree with you, Mr. Doyle, nothing needs to pre-
cede the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. Stop arguing and give your answer.
Mr. Huebsch. I am not arguing.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, you are.
Mr. HuEBsCH. Judge Yankwich brought up to date
Mr. Velde. That is purely a voluntary statement. Will the wit-
ness say whether or not he is relying on the fifth amendment for his
refusal to answer questions concerning his communistic
Mr. Huebsch. I have asserted my rights in the first, fifth, ninth,
and tenth amendments of the Constitution of the United States.
Mr, Tavenner. Have you at any time been a member of the Com-
munist Party since you became a screen writer ?
Mr. Huebsch. This question, sir, has as its issue politics.
Mr. Velde. That is purely a voluntary statement. Of course, it
should be stricken from the record. It is stricken from the record.
Will the witness answer or decline to answer ?
Mr. Huebsch. Sir, my answer to this question is neither in the
negative nor is it in the affirmative. My answer to this question is
that in the realm of politics Congress is forbidden to make laws
Mr. Velde. That remark will be stricken from the record.
Will the witness answer or decline to answer?
Mr. Huebsch. Shall I read it in de novo the language of the first
amendment ?
Mr. Scherer. I move you instruct the witness to answer the ques-
tion. If he doesn't answer, I think we should dismiss this witness.
Mr. Velde. Of course, the gentleman is absolutely right. The
question is simple. I am sure the witness knows the answer to it.
Mr. Walter. Well, I think the witness has answered. He has an-
swered. He said, "My answer is neither 'yes' nor 'no'." That is his
answer. Let's let the record stand on that.
Mr. Huebsch. No, it is not, sir ; no, it is not.
Mr. Walter. That is exactly what you said.
Mr. Huebsch. I have not finished my answer. The reason that
a person's answers are not
(At this point Mr. Huebsch conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Huebsch. Look, now, you have got a writer up here. You
haven't got a lawyer. You gentlemen are Members of the Congress.
1 don't dispute with you on points of law. I don't want to. That
is not what I am here for.
380 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
My fiuiiiliarity with the Constitution goes back to my school days.
But I am asserting here that the Constitution says I do not have to
answer that question one way or the other, and you can't say that I
haven't answered it one way or anotlier. That is the first amend-
ment to me, because it is a vioL^tion of my politics.
JSIr. Walter. Let's see if we have that straight.
Miss Reporter, read the answer.
(AVliereupon, the answer was read.)
Mr. Walter. That is the answer.
Mr. HUEBSCH. That is not the answer.
Mr. Veij)e. Is there any reason why this witness should not be
excused ?
Mr. HiTEBSCH. Unless that question is withdrawn, sir, I will abso-
lutely require — I need to finish my answer. Now
Mr. Walter. You have an answer. You answered it and the answer
was read back to you.
Do you have any other questions, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr.HuEBScH. That is only a part of the answer.
Mr. Tavenner. No ; I don't have any more questions.
Mr. HuEBscH. There is
Mr. Clardy. I ask the witness be dismissed from the stand.
Mr. Htjebsch. I assert my right to refuse to answer yes or no on
the first, fifth, ninth, and tenth amendments of the Constitution.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Tavenner, do you have any further questions ?
Mr. Htjebsch. Is that of record ? Is my answer of record ?
Mr. Jackson. What was your answer ?
Mr. Htjebsch. My answer was that I assert my rights to refuse to
answer yes or no on the first, fifth, ninth, and tenth amendments of the
Constitution.
Mr. Velde. The witness is dismissed.
The Chair wishes to state, for the benefit of the television audience,
that on last Monday the witness who has just been heard objected to
being televised, and also insisted that the television equipment be
removed from the room during the time that he was testifying.
The committee, after this request was made, went into executive
session and decided that there would be no television of this hearing
this morning, and it was so announced last Monda}^ by the Chair.
The Chair, and I am sure the members of the committee, regret
that we had to deprive the public of the benefits or lack of benefits
that were derived from the testimony of the last witness.
HoAvever, we will proceed now. Unless another witness objects to
being televised, we will proceed with the television.
Mr. Counsel, do you have another witness?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. The next witness is JVIr. Bart Lytton.
Mr. Vei.de. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn?
In the testimony that you are about to give before this committee,
do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Lytton. So help me God.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Reporter, let the record show at this point the
presence of Mr. Jackson, Mr. Clardy, ^Mr. S^^herer, INIr. Walter, Mr.
Doyle, Mr. Frazier, and the chairman, Mr. Velde, a quorum of the
whole committee.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 381
TESTIMONY OF BART LYTTON, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
ROBERT A. MOFFITT
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Lytton. My name is Bart Lytton.
Mr. Tavexner. Are you accompanied by counsel, Mr. Lytton ?
Mr. Lyttox. I am, tliouoh I was told that maybe a personal body-
guard would be better. My counsel is Robert A. Moffitt.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your address, Mr. Moffitt?
Mr. MoFFiiT. 403 West Eighth Street, Los Angeles 14, Trinity
8341.
Mr. Tavenner. We wanted it only for the purpose of the record.
Mr. Velde. May we have order?
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Lytton?
Mr. Lytton. I was born in 1912 in Pennsylvania.
Mr. Tavenner. Where in Pennsylvania ?
Mr. Lytton. In Lawrence County.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state to the committee, please, what your
educational training has been, that is, what your formal educational
training has been ?
Mv. Lytton. Yes. I went through grade school, preparatory school,
Staunton Military Academy, Staunton, Va., Westminster College, and
the University of Virginia, and I took some graduate courses at North-
western University.
Mr. Tavenner, What is your occupation?
Mr. Lytton. Real-estate development and finance.
Mr. Ta^t:nner. Have you ever had any occupation other than that
of the real-estate business ?
Mr. Lytton. Yes, I was a writer.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been in Los Angeles?
Mr. Lytton. Approximately 13 years.
Mr, Tavenner. Prior to that time were you in business?
Mr. Lytton. No, sir.
Mr. Ta%t:nner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your em-
ployment has been, that is, describe it in a general way, since you came
to Los Angeles 13 years ago?
Mr. Lyti^ton. It might take a long time, in terms of
Mr. Tavenner. I mean not too much in detail, but just to give us a
general idea of the nature of your work.
Mr. Lytton. Well, first in Los Angeles I did police reporting for
several magazines and the Country Press. Following that I worked
in radio, and then in motion-picture studios; I worked in motion-
picture studios through 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. Since that time have you been in business for
3'ourself ?
Mr. Lytton. No, sir. I went in business in 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed between 1944 and 1948 ?
Mr. Lytton. Rarely.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lytton, in sworn testimony before this com-
mittee by Mrs. Townsend, Mrs. Pauline Townsend, we were advised
that you at one time were a member of the Communist Party. Is
that information correct?
Mr. Lytton. It is, for a very brief period.
382 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. How long a period of time were you in the party?
Mr. Ly'iton. There were two brief periods. I would say one was
approximately 4 or 5 months and the other was a matter of 6 weeks,
6 or 8 weeks in all.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you willing to tell the committee what your
experience in the Communist Party was and answer any questions
which may be asked you regarding your knowledge of the Communist
Party activities?
Mr. Lytton. I am not only willing, Mr. Tavenner, I will be very
pleased to.
Mr. Tavenner, Some witnesses apparently are not willinf; to advise
the committee of their knowledge of Communist Party activities. I
am glad to learn that you are.
What motivated you or what has motivated you in expressing your
willingness to advise the committee of what knowledge you have of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Lytton. Well, Mr. Tavenner. I never would have had any
unwillingness at any time, including the time that I was in the Com-
munist Party. It strikes me that this is a duly constituted committee
of Congress, and at any time in my life I have felt that the processes
of law were to be observed, and if one didn't like what happened,
there were many ways to protest that, but that the protest — well, if
a traffic police officer gives me a ticket, I don't tear it up, so let's put
it that way.
So I would say that there was no problem of arriving at that deci-
sion, but I would say that I had — I feel that there are an evergrowing
number of people who were formerly in the Communist Party, who
were in at one time or another, or people who were friendly to it,
who resort to the use of the fifth amendment when it is not a subject
properly coming under the fifth amendment, because I feel in the first
place I never did anything incriminating, I never did anything illegal,
I never did anything to incriminate me.
I resent people resting themselves on the fifth amendment just be-
cause hoodlums and gangsters and now many people whom I think in-
dividually are fine people, but in the position that they take I think
that they are doing an injustice to the Constitution, they are vitiating
the very purpose for which the fifth amendment was placed in the
Constitution among the first 10 articles, or the Bill of Rights.
I lieard the previous witness, a gentleman whom I didn't know, Mr.
Huebsch, read the fifth amendment. I hadn't heard it for a long
time. I found a sardonic amusement in his use of the very last phrase
of the article, which was that property shall not be taken except
through due process of law. It had not been my impression of the
Communist Party that they meant to pay for it.
Mr. Velde. Let's have order.
Mr. Tavenner. Your knowledge of the Communist Party has led
you to the belief that the Communist Party did not respect the prop-
erty rights of individuals in their political thinking, in their Marxian
thought?
Mr. Lyiton. The Communist Party respected no rights of individ-
uals. I certainly know that.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you advise the committee, please, the
circumstances under which you became originally a member of the
Communist Party ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 383
Mr. Lttton. Yes, I will be glad to do so. I might surprise the
committee at this point, because naturally I have listened to a great
deal of testimony, and it struck me that people joined the Communist
Party and have been friendly to the party for a variety of reasons.
I joined the Communist Party because I became interested in so-
cialism, and I thought that socialism was a good thing at the time. I
was told that the Communist Party represented scientific socialism,
Marxian socialism and dialectic materialism, and I believed in social-
ism, and it seemed a very logical basis to move. The reason to me
was simple.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Can you go back in your memory to the first occa-
sion which prompted some action on your part toward a mental im-
pression which later developed into your getting into the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Lytton. I think that the first time I even knew that there was
what is called a movement, let alone the Communist Party, progres-
sive movement, which is sometimes called Marxism and so forth, was
when I was in attendance at the University of Virginia.
The then editor of the Communist Daily Worker in New York, by
name Clarence Hathaway, was an invited speaker at a forum at our
university, where there always has been, and to my knowledge re-
mains, free speech.
Mr. Walter. By "our university" j^ou mean the University of Vir-
ginia ?
Mr. Lytton. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. That is also my university.
Mr. Frazier. And I am glad to say it is mine.
Mr. Lytton. We didn't have much of a football team ; I was around
it, but we had a mighty fine university.
In any event, Mr. Hathaway — he was then to me just Mr. Hathaway.
I didn't know him. I didn't attend this particular forum, because I
think I was possibly 19 or 20, and I was interested in football and
boxing, occasionally in studies, and always in girls, and I had no po-
litical interests at the time.
Hathaway came down and spoke, in any event, and a group of ath-
letes— I was not among the group — a group of athletes went in to
break up that meeting. They were pretty rugged boys, and I know it.
I fought with them on the team and played around with them and so
forth, and they were pretty rugged boys, and they went in and they
broke up the Hathaway meeting, and they threw out Hathaway, and
managed to get into fights with those that were in attendance.
I heard about the incident. I wasn't anywhere around it, but I
heard about it, and I was worried about it; I didn't like mob action,
and I felt that this was an injustice. I felt that the boys had acted
incorrectly, that they had discredited the university, and I spoke about
that to many people.
Let's put it this way : I have always been articulate to some extent,
and I spoke about it to many people. I thought at the time and still
think that you have got to do some thinking about the world you live
in. I didn't even know there was such a thing at that time. I don't
believe that I was aware of the existence of the Communist Party, as
such, and I am not even sure that the persons who talked to me were
Conmiunists, but we talked about Marxism.
384 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
And they talked about socialism, and so forth. They handed me
pamphlets and they talked and they talked and they talked. It began
to condition me— let me place the year. The year was, I believe, 1933.
It was very easy in 1933 to be conditioned in the direction of socialism.
As a matter of fact, I might say the people I talked to in regard to my
appearance here today, if as many people voted for Xorman Thomas
in 1932 as they assured me they did, I think he won, and the votes were
stalled.
In any event, this was 1933 or 1934. I don't recall the exact year.
My feelings began then in the direction of the various pamphlets,
books, and so forth that I was handed, and I thumbed through.
Mr. Tavenner. I am interested to know just what part this incident
played in your mental approach to this whole subject. That is, the
incident where you felt an injustice had been done in denying the
right or privilege of free speech.
Mr. L-i-TTON. I think a large part, Mr. Tavenner — let me put it this
way: Life has many fortuitous and unfortuitous terms. If someone
hears something, at the moment he is pretty impressionable, and it
may have an effect on him. I wasn't interested in the political scene
at the time. I would say it had a very appreciable effect.
I would say this, sir: that, if such an incident occurred at any time.
I think any decent person would think, "Wait a minute. That is mob
action. I don't like it." And I still don't like it. I would draw
utterly different conclusions from it today.
INIr. Tavenner. Then proceed with your description of the circum-
stances under which you got actually into the Communist Party.
Mr Lytton. When I left university training, I went to New York
City. I was subsidized at the time by my parents, I had $15 a week
to become a writer. It was sufficient at the moment. I had nothing
to do except the hours that I devoted to writing.
I recall roamiTvi: around and finding New York a fascinating citv.
I recall Columbus Circle, where manv speeches were made at the
time. I used to fiet involved in all-night sessions in cafeterias in the
area where one could sit for five cents" worth of coffee and discuss
things all night. I used to argue them out.
I began to think that socialism was a good thing, and I believed
what I was told : that it was inevitable. I still argued, however, I
didn't like tlie connection between the Communist Party and the So'^aet
Union ; though it was a period of great friendship to the Soviet Union,
I couldn't understand it.
It was suggested to me by one of my new-found companions that I
take a course at the Workers' School in New York, which is on 13th
Street in Communist Party headquarters, I went down and enrolled
and took two coui-ses, as a matter of fact, at that time.
"WHiile in attendance at the Worker's' School. I had been perhaps 6
weeks there, and a very lovely Irishman by the name of Jim Casey
was the managing editor of the Daily Worker at that time. I think
he became pretty unhnppv about it late^\ In any event. Jim Casey
came in to address us. I was interested in newspaper work, and I
questioned him closely. I don't recall his answers. I only know at a
certain point he said, "Why aren't you in it?"
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point, 11 : 15 a. m.)
Mr. Lytton. I said, "I am not readv."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 385
He said. ''The only way you can o;et ready is to come on in." Some-
body handed me a card." I don't know who, just one of the students
in the class whom I don't believe I saw more than one more time
followino- that. Somebody lianded me a card. Somebody else I was
inti-oduced to told me his' name was Jimmy Higgins, which I genu-
inely believed at the time. I learned later that is a popular name in
the i)arty, to cover a certain hard worker that doesn't want much glory.
.Vnyone'that is a hard worker and not seeking glory is called a Jimmy
Higgins.
At the time, I believed this chap's name was Jimmy Higgins, and I
called him Jimmy Higgins. I was given a card and I was unem-
j^loyed and I paid 10 cents. It was the roughest dime I ever spent.
I was assigned to wliat was then called a unit on the low^er East
Side of New York on Avenue B, an Irish-Italian — composed primarily
of Irish and Italians in the area. The language disparity between
them made for grave difficulties. I was assigned there because it
was felt that, being from the middle class, the middle of the middle
class. I needed to meet the workers.
I w^ent to a number of meetings down in this particular unit, and
while I was in attendance there, there was held what was called the
Seventh World Congress of the Communist Party. It was decided
that, well, in fact, it had been held, the decisions were being made at
the ver}' time. The party was Americanizing, so to speak. It was de-
cided to have what they call branches, big open clubs of 100, 150 people
in them, to have a mass base. I was called in to 13th Street, which
was Communist headquarters, and asked if I would organize, be the
organizer for a branch.
I did not accept the assignment and Avas subsequently assigned
to a branch. I attended 1 meeting and then I think 2 more subse-
quently sometime later, and I left active membership in the Commu-
nist Party at that time.
This whole period was perhaps— I don't know how many months,
but it was a matter of months.
Mr. TxWENXER. In the Communist school, the Workers' School
which 3'ou attended, can you tell us anything about the Commu-
nist Party membership of the teachers?
Mr. Lytton. No, sir ; I can't. The only one who made an impression
u])on me was Jim Casey.
Mr. Ta\"enner. Do I understand that you left the Communist Party
at the time you have just mentioned, after membership of a matter
of months ?
Mr. Lytton. That is right, sir.
Mr. Taatenner. What was your reason for leaving: the Communist
Party at that time?
Mr. Lytton. Well, I was vaguely disturbed. I can't say the leav-
ing at that time was a turning of my back upon it. I was vaguely
disturbed at the — what I saw. Nothing specific.
Then two incidents occurred, and they made up my mind for me.
One, I was approaclied and asked if I would be willing to take, I
believe it was, some kind of railroad spike with a note wrapped around
it, and if I would throw it through the window of the Italian Embassy,
somewhere in New York, I don't even know where it was,
Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you tell us that again?
386 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Lytton. T was asked if I would do this. I wasn't asked by
someone that I know as a member of the Communist Party. In fact,
I don't even remember the chap who asked me. I don't know that
he was a Communist, incidentally, and my testimony shall be truth-
ful, and therefore I don't want to say that this happened as a result
of the party, because I never knew. I only know someone came up
to me and said, "Will you do this?"
I said, "Why?"
He said, "This is a time of Italy's invasion of Ethiopia, and this
is a protest from the people of New York."
I took the spike and looked at it. He had it right there. I un-
wrapped it. It was in brown wrapping paper of the type you wrap
meat in, and in pen was written a message. The essence of it was
that the people of New York were protesting against the Italian in-
vasion, and it was just signed, "The People."
I was embarrassed at the moment and I accepted the spike. I didn't
like it. I was told that a taxicab would pick me up in the Eighties
somewhere, and I was accompanied by a seaman who was not to my
knowledge at the time a member of the Communist Party because I
was trying to recruit. He never went in.
In any event, he went along with me. I said, "No, I can't do this."
He laughed. He thought it was a great escapade. He said, "What's
the matter? Are you chicken?"
I said, "You know I'm not. You know me better tlian that, but
I just don't like it."
He said, "Why?"
"I just don't like doing things this way."
And that was the end of the incident. I didn't do it.
Mr. Doyle. What did you do with the spike ?
Mr. Lytton. I didn't swallow it, and I am darned if I remember.
Mr. Walter. That sounds sort of like blowing up power lines.
Mr. Lytton. I will have to repeat on that that I don't know that it
was a member of the Communist Party that approached me because it
was just a chap that saw me at one of the large massive affairs that was
held. It was a street thing, as I recall, and he didn't identify himself,
but he said, "Would you like to do this?"
He must have had some reason, but I don't know who he was, and
that is the way such a thing would happen, naturally. I don't know
that it was identified.
In fairness there, in New York at that time there were probably —
oh, there were several score of radical groups of all kinds and com-
plexions, and they used to hassle it out. I don't know who proposed
that I so do. I just know that I was disturbed by the incident.
Mr. Tavennek. That disturbance had an effect on your decision to
get out of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lyiton. That disturbance was crystallized for me some time
later, not too long later, when a script that I had written — I had just
become a professional writer — was supposed to go on. It was an
adaptation of a Fanny Hurst short story. It was supposed to go on a
series called The Greatest Story on the network. It was my hrst big
break. I had my first TV show.
The script was submitted. The producer liked it immensely. He
said, "This is terrific, and we are going to give you lots more work."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 387
The director, however, rejected the script. He came to me and
he said, "Look, you ought to know better, I know a little about you
and you ought to know better than to write a script like this."
I asked him what he meant. The subject matter was concerned with
an immigrant family. He said, "This is chauvinistic."
I said, "What do you mean ?"
He said, "You are using accents."
I said, "For heaven's sake, don't they talk accents?"
He said, "That's chauvinism."
I said, "What right do you have to question me about it ?"
He said, "Well, I just won't be identified with a script like this. I
won't put it on."
Now, this was a warm and human story of Fanny Hurst. It was a
lovely thing. My script was, I think, a decent and clean rendition of
or adaptation of that story, and I was proud of it.
He said, "Well, I'll tell you what. I have talked this over with V. J.
Jerome." The name meant nothing to me at the moment. I learned
subsequently who .V. J. Jerome was. "He agreed with me that this is
chauvinism," he said.
Mr. Jackson. For the purpose of the record, would you identify
V. J. Jerome ?
Mr. Lytton. To the best of my knowledge, I only met Mr. V. J.
Jerome once, and to the best of my knowledge I was told that he was
the cultural director of the Communist Party. By "cultural director"
I don't mean social activities.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, would you continue?
Mr. ScHERER. He didn't finish. He just got to the point.
Mr. Tavenner. I meant for him to continue.
Mr. Lytton. Yes, sir. The script was not put on, and my resent-
ment was keen. First, it was an opportunity for me as far as I was
concerned. Secondly, I am proud of that script today. I was proud
of it then. It was a good script. It was subsequently played, and
it led to other radio work. It played well, and the very people whom
he insisted were being lampooned thought it was a lovely, warm, and
human thing.
As a matter of fact, subsequently, I believe that in various periods
I have followed, why, just this sort of thing w^as done when it suited
the purposes or line, I should say. When the lines changed of the
Communist Party, I have seen them do somewhat similar things. But
at the time this w^as disapproved. This was verboten. I resented
this very much.
What I did was this : I simply left the Communist Party. I didn't
say anything to anybody and I left. Now, when you leave the Com-
munist Party it is much like coming out of a decompression chamber.
It takes a while in order to go through the various emotional and
intellectual phases that naturally take place.
When I left the Communist Party at this time I was leaving. As
far as I was concerned, I was leaving the Communist Party. I did
not at that time feel that I was leaving what were my convictions
insofar as socialism was concerned, because I believed in it then. I
just didn't believe in the Communist Party any longer at that time.
I was vaguely uneasy at the beginning, and then I became angry,
and I left.
388 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Xow, 1 had beoii \n only a short time and it was a time of orreat
foment for the Communist Party as well as the world. It was of
the time of Ethiopia through to the beginning of the Spanish civil
war. The Communist Party during that time had many changes of
form. It was almost as hard to keep up witli the changes of form
as it was to kee]) up with the changes of line, and therefore, one did
not always know who did and who did not belong, and so forth and
so on, because you were moved about frequently.
I didn't say anything to anybody. I just simply left and had
nothing further to do with it. I stopped participation very quickly
thereafter in any form of political activity, but first, it was the Com-
munist Party. As I said, I said nothing to anybody about it. I
just did it.
I think that probably for several years a number of people thought
that I was a member of the Communist Party, or at least friendly
to it. A number of people didn't think so because when they asked
me, they got a direct answer.
Mr. Tavionner. I am very much interested in your statement with
regard to the effort of V. J. Jerome to censor or review the project
that you had worked on.
Mr. Lytton. I wish I could help you, Mr. Tavenner, but the only
thing that V. J. Jerome censored in the way of a project was an idea
I had for a mobile theater to go around the country, and he thought
it would take too much money.
You see, I was told that V. J. Jerome agreed — when I happened
to meet V. J. Jerome under different circumstances, it was in regard
to a project for a mobile theater.
Mr. TA^^3NNER. Tell us about the occasion when you met him.
Mr. Lytton. This was in 1936, I believe, and I had come out to
Hollywood to raise money for a project that was dear to me. I
wanted to send mobile theaters throughout the country. I was a
theater director at the time, as well as writing scripts. I was put in
contact with V. J. Jerome. I was told I had to clear my matter
through him. This was just before the other incident of which I
spoke.
I met him in front of Schwab's drugstore in Laurel Canyon on
Sunset Boulevard here in Hollywood.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you say that you were told you had to clear
the matter throujih V. J. Jerome?
Mr. Lyiton. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us what the circumstances were of that.
Mr. Walter. About when was this?
INIr. LvrroN. 1936.
Mr. Walter. In the fall?
Mr. LvrroN. No, sir, it would be sunnner, I think. No, it was
Easter. I recall because I was going to school again at the time, as
well. I came out here during the Easter vacation.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you advise the committee who suggested that
the matter should be cleared through V. J. Jerome?
Mr. LYi'roN. No, sir, I cannot advise you of that, because I honestly
can't do that. I do not recall. 1 recall that I discussed the matter
with the New Theater League in New York and that somebody there
said, "Well, when you get to the coast, you better see V. J. Jerome.''
COJVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 389
]\rr. Tavenner. That suggestion came from New York, not from
Los Angeles ?
Mr. Lyiton. That is correct. That is right.
JNIr. Tavenner. All right. Will you proceed, please ?
Mr. LvrroN. Well, I saw Mv. Jerome there. I was given a tele-
phone number to call. I called it and he arranged to meet me in
front of Schwab's drugstore. I described the project to him. He
said it was very good. He said it was swell and if I wanted to raise
the money for it, fine, but that any of their people out here, any of
the contacts they had and so forth, they preferred that I left them
alone, because there were worthier purposes for their money.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Now, that is an interesting point. Was that an
indication to you that there were persons in Hollywood assisting
V. J. eJerome in putting across the projects that he was interested in?
Mr. Lytton. Well, that would be a conclusion on my part. It is a
reasonable one.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive any further information from V. J.
Jerome or from any other source?
JVIr. Lytton. No, I did not.
INlr. Tavenner. As to just what projects V. J. Jerome was inter-
ested in pu.tting across?
Mr. Lyiton. No, sir, I did not. Specifically, in regard to my mo-
bile theater project.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, have you any direct information as to what
groups or individuals he wanted saved for his own projects instead
of being utilized in the sponsorship of your project?
Mr. Lytton. Mr. Jerome didn't tell me. He just told me that he
wouldn't make any contacts for me out here, that was all, I was on
my own.
Mr. SciiERER. May I ask a question ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Whom did you understand that Mr. Jerome was rep-
resenting at the time he said to you that he didn't want these mobile
units to be
Mr. Lytton, Well, I presume that he was representing out here
the Communist Party, but I wasn't put in contact directly in that
regard. I knew his name, after all. It was not a name unknown to
me. His name appeared often enough in the Daily Worker and the
New Masses and so forth.
Mr. Tavenner. You had met V. J. Jerome prior to that time ?
Mr. Lytton. No, sir. I have only met him once.
Mr. Tavenner. The occasion that you described to us when you
met him in regard to a play in New York, I thought was a different
occasion,
Mr. Lytton. This was a different occasion, Mr. Tavenner, but I
did not meet Mr. V. J. Jerome. I was told that V. J. Jerome agreed.
Mr. Tavenner. So this is the only occasion on which you actually
met him ?
Mr. Lytton. That is right, to the best of my recollection,
Mr, Tavenner, Now, you stated that you were advised in New
York to get in touch with V. J. Jerome here, and that you were given
his telephone number.
Mr, Lytton, That is right.
Mr, Ta\^nner. I understood that.
31747— 53— pt. 1^ 9
390 COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Lytton. That is right; yes.
Mr. Tavenner, Can you tell the committee who it was?
Mr. Lytton. Xo, I don't recall who told me specifically. I know
that I had discussed — I had written articles for the New Theater
League magazine, New Theater. I sometimes went to the offices of
the New Theater League, and somebody there, I discussed the
project with somebody there, and somebody said, "Now look, here is
how to do it. When you get out there, you get in touch with V. J.
Jerome. If he likes it and clears it, you will be put in contact with
money."
Mr. Tavenner. Now, ]VIr. Lytton, I would like to interrupt your
testimony at just his moment to make one matter clear. It is a thing
that has frequently occurred. We have subpenaed witnesses before
and then found out there were two people by the same name, or very
similar names.
Mr. Lttton. I am glad you brought that up because I thought of a
chap that bears virtually the same name as I bear.
Mr. Tavenner. I think in fairness to both of you
Mr. Lytton. Mr. Tavenner, last week I tried to find his name in the
telephone book and I couldn't locate it. We decided perhaps he was
out of town or something. I wanted to call him and tell him I was
going to appear and perhaps he would like to join the audience and tell
a few thino-s. I don't know him. I have never met him. I have
seen his name m trade papers.
Mr, Tavenner. Is that Herbert Lytton ?
Mr. Lytton. That's right. He is on radio.
Mr. Tavenner. He is a screenwriter also at the present time ?
Mr. Lytton. Is he? I don't know.
Mr. Ta\t3nner. He may be a radiowriter.
Mr. Lytton. If he is, I hope that he is getting some use out of my
old credit.
Mr. Ta\'enner. But you are not in the same field of endeavor at this
time.
]Mr. Lytton. I don't know the man. I have seen his name in the
trade papers. Naturally, I was struck with it, Herbert Lytton.
Mr. Tavenner, There should be no excuse for anyone confusing the
two of you because you are not in the screenwriting business at this
time at all.
Mr. Lyiton. I am not in the screenwriting business or in any form
of writing,
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Lytton, you have described your ex-
perience up until the time that you withdrew from the Communist
Party, after an experience of a matter of months within the party.
Can you fix the approximate date when you withdrew from the Com-
munist Part}^ in New York?
Mr. Lytton. No, sir. That would be hard to do. It was about the
period that I told you.
Mr. Tavenner. That period was approximately when?
Mr. Lytton. I would think about 1937, perhaps 1936. I would
have to go back and look at historical events in order to place it, be-
cause to some extent that is how I would be able to fix it, but I don't
recall.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 391
Mr. Tavenner. Did I understand you correctly to say that it may
liave been a matter of a year and a half or more from that time until
you became interested aoain in any way in the Conununist Party?
Mr. Lyttox. It was nuich longer than that, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavennek. Suppose you tell us about that.
Mr. Lyiton. Well, I continued Avriting. I began to get assign-
ments here and there, and began to biuld my career. I came out to
Hollywood hi lOiO with tlie objective of establishing myself as a
screen writer. I was in the process of writing a play and I had the
]:)lay pretty well set forth, I should say, and a writer now dead, wdio
Avas not the grand Pobh-Bah of the Communist Party out here but who
was their darling, one of their 2 or 3 darlings, but he is now deceased
and I would rather not be asked his name.
Mr. Tavenner. I will not ask you.
Mr. Lytton. Though he was well known, he had been a very promi-
]ient writer during the lO^O's. He had been considered a very promis-
ing, rather than prominent, novelist, aud I told him about my play.
He became quite excited about it and he said, "I think that I can get
this thing on the boards of New York in G months."
He then suggested a collaboration. I learned later that this, of
course, was a common suggestion. At the time, I was a little taken
back. It seems that he was an experienced writer. He had written
many shows for pictures. He told me his many virtues, and he had
them, incidentally, as a writer.
■ At the particular pei'iod of his life he had everything but the will-
ingness to work. He suggested we collaborate. He said he had a
]Droducer ready, and he said that the producer ready was a man who
had subsidized at one particular time Jet Harris in New York and
that Jet Harris would probably direct the play.
After considerable time considering the matter, I think probably
24 hours, I decided that it might be a good thing and that he could
teach me a great deal about the craft of playwriting, and that I would
work with him.
He invited me to move to his residence.
(Representative Harold H. Velde reentered the hearing room at
this point, 11:40 a. m.)
He invited me to move to his residence in Hollywood and to- work
under very nice material circumstances. He produced the money
necessary for the writing of the play and I was put on a deal where I
was to receive $50 a week during the course of the writing for a
S})ecified period of time, a contract that was never completely lived up
to, but that is neither here nor there at this moment.
We worked on the play and we engaged in many arguments about
its meaning, about its ideolog;y\ The play was simple and it was about
people. He would argue Avith me that it just didn't have the political
sharpness in it that it should have. I would argue in return that I
considered myself a writer and I certainly wanted to continue to be a
writer and I thought that that was an inhibitory process, "Let me
Avrite the ])lay'' being my argument, and "Wliat must come out, let it
come out."
He would inhibit me and he would desire to see page after page, and
then there would be these frantic argmnents about the meaning of lines
and the meaning of scenes and so forth, and we became quite unhappy
in the course of it.
392 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenneh. Well now, are you describing a situation Avhicli was
criticized possibly at a later period when Albert Maltz took the
position at first that writing should not be — his art should not be
used as a weapon, and then later reversed himself on the point?
Mr. LvrroN. Well, let's say that there is some relationship in jn'ob-
lems here. I don't know that my position was that art shouldn't be
used as a weapon. It was simply that I wanted to write the play
as I felt it, and if it proved to be a weapon, fine, because it would be
a weapon for whatever I believed in. I wasn't concerned with sitting
down and writing — the term then used was "agit prop." I wanted to
write what I wanted to write and let people 'find in it what they
found in it.
Mr. Tavenner. What you were writing or proposing to write did
not meet with the approval of
IVIr. Lytton. Of this writer.
Mr. Tavenner. Of this w^riter who was looking at it from the Com-
munist Party standpoint?
Mr. Lytton. I don't know. He was a very, let's say a very cir-
cumspect man, and he had a reason to be, and he would always refer
to the "movement" and never to the Communist Party. However,
he suggested to me very strongly, he said, "I understand you were
around the movement in New York 4 or 5 years ago. You ought
to be back in." We didn't agree on that.
Following this disagreement, we had many about the scrijjt itself.
The play was called Big With Tomorrow at the time and there were
disagreements with it. I had been asked by him to rejoin the move-
ment, as he put it. I didn't. He told me that I was foolish, that
if I wanted a career in Hollywood I would have to sharpen my
thinking, that this was a particularly perilous time in world history;
those arguments and so forth.
Additionally, that I would have an opportunity, if I became a
Communist, to meet and work with the best minds out here. This
would sharpen me as a writer and be valuable to me. But I refused.
About a week later I was told, "The honeymoon is over. The play
will not be produced." That was the end of that particular episode.
Now, I think, Mr. Tavenner, I will have to go back here. Your
question was, How did I happen to once again rejoin for a time?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. And in stating your reasons and how it
occurred, we are very much interested in all the efforts that were
made to bring you into the party and any other experience you had
in connection with the party.
Mr. Lytton. Very well. I worked in Hollywood — I got my — I
started to earn, earned my living at the time doing what is called
fact stories, f actuals. Factuals are stories that appear in the factual,
so-called factual magazines. I was given a press card by Country
Press, and I did a large number of these stories to earn ni}^ living.
At that time I was a 6-cent-a-word writer. That was a very high
price, because it started at about a half a cent. It was a prolific period
for me, and I was concerned, first, with these fact stories and from
there — I joined a Eadio Writers' Guild and got some small radio
assignments.
The Eadio Writers' Guild sent me down to work for the Motion
Picture Democratic Committee. They said there was a job open
down there to do radio publicity, time slots and so forth. I had
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 393
liad considerable experience in that previously. There was a job
there at the then magnificent salary of $35 a week. I looked at it,
however, as a chance to get in radio here. I went down and took the
assignment.
The Motion Picture Democratic Committee at that time had been
the Democratic committee of the Communist Party in Hollywood.
There was a split on the Finland question. At that time Helen
Gahagan Douglas led a group of people out of the Motion Picture
Democratic Committee because the people in control of the Motion
Picture Democratic Committee were attacking our stand on Finland.
I went to work for the Motion Picture Democratic Committee at
that time and I lasted 4 or 5 weeks there. There was a campaign
going on and I didn't understand the issues of the campaign, and I
was disturbed by the fact that I was for Roosevelt and the committee
wasn't.
I said, ''This is a job and it doesn't make any difference; I will try
to listen to this and see what it is about." I was vaguely disturbed
about it at the time and I became more and more uneasy. And the
period that followed, I worked for a number — I got a reputation as
knowing this particular kind of work in terms of getting agencies
of one kind and another on the radio.
There was no TV at tlie time. I worked for a number of agencies
as a professional during their — I worked — I did Avork for Red Cross,
for Navy Relief, for China War Relief, for Russian War Relief and
forUSO.
I was paid in this period, and my salary kept going up as a paid
publicity director or public-relations director, or I was brought in
for a special assignment. During this period I didn't have — when I
came to Russian War Relief, I should say, I was surprised "to find that
the membership of Russian War Relief was composed of non-Com-
munist people, definitely who weren't for communism. It was com-
posed of people against Hitler. There were many White Russians
in it, who at that time were for the fatherland or the motherland, or
whatever it is, the whole way. There were others that believed we
should help an ally in the war. It looked to me like it was getting
pretty respectable to speak up for Russia.
By 1942 I was working in motion-picture studios. I had sold a
script and began to work in motion-picture studios.
Mr. Tavenner. At that point what screen credits did you have?
Mr. Lttton. You know, this is the most embarrassing question
you have asked me yet. I only mean that some of them I would like
to forget.
My first picture was called "Tomorrow We Live." It was pro-
duced by Seymour Nebenzahl.
My second picture, as I recall, was called "Sp}- Train,'' and it had
to do with German spies aboard a train here attempting to commit
sabotage. It was produced by King.
My third was "Bowery to Broadway," an all-star, big musical, and
that was at Universal where I worked right straight through, story,
screenplay and so forth.
I think I am in chronological order here. My next picture was —
the title escapes me now. Maybe I want to forget that picture. I
394 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS AXGELES AREA
didn't like the way it came out. Tlie title escapes me, but I will re-
call it.
It was — I think it was called "Follow Your Heart," and that was
at RKO. But I don't think it was released mider the title of "Follow
Your Heart." It was released under another title. It was a story of
a little war refufi;ee who comes to America and loves it.
I also did a picture on the story of Ledice, Czechoslovakia, the
wiping out of that town, the monstrous wiping out of that village by
the Nazis. Tliis picture was considered a very fine job all around.
I think that about covers — the rest of my screen credits were the
typical credits for additional dialogue and a lot of typical picture
doctoring.
Mr. Tavenneh. I interrupted you to have you give us an idea of
the screen credits you had. You were telling us about your interest
in Russia at this particular time when you were writing scripts for the
movies.
Mr. Lytton. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Proceed, ])lease.
Mr. Lytton. In 1944, during the summer of 1944, just before that,
at the end of 1943 my family had learned officially of the death of my
brother in action. He was a B-17 chauffeur in the Mediterranean, ac-
tion over the Mediterranean. I was quite disturbed by this time. All
my brotliers were in action, and I wanted to be. I was quite disturbed
at the time, I think, over the going of the war; and, like countless mil-
lions of Americans, I was praying for every possible victory that the
Russians could have. They put up a fine defense at Stalingrad and
had impressed the world.
In 1944 I was working at RKO Studios, at the time that Henry Wal-
lace was still Vice President of the United States and was up for
renomination. He got 510 votes or something of the sort, but he
didn't quite make it. I liked Wallace. I thought at that time that
Henry Wallace was a fine kind of American and my kind of American.
He didn't get the nomination. I lost $50 in a bet with another writer.
I recall it very well.
He didn't get the nomination, and this additionally bothered me.
I said, "Well, look, I think the people wanted Wallace. That is the
way I read it. The people wanted Wallace and they didn't get
Wallace."
At that time I was approached — wasn't approached — to tell it more
correctly, I was seated in another writer's office. I was in the direc-
tors' building at RKO. I went in for a chat, as people do on the lot,
into another writer's office, and we were talking about his script. It
was a comedy. It had to do with women. By that I mean, more spe-
cifically, it had to do with the role of women in society, so to speak;
should they or shouldn't they have careers, and so forth.
He started, entered discussions about the meaning of this script.
AVe had a long and interesting discussion about what it meant.
He suddenly looked at me and he said, "Why aren't you one of us?"
At the first moment I thought he meant the guild ; for just about one
moment. I said "I am."
He said "No; you are not."
I said "Oh," like Don. I said "I didn't have too happy an exjje-
rience. I just don't see it is for me. I don't like it, really."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 395
He asked me why, and I f^ave my reasons. He said, "Well now, look,
Bart, times have cliano-ed. The party has changed. It isn't sectarian
now. It has a big, broad base and you have these objections to it.
Now^, you are a reasonable man. Why don't you come and take a look
and see if it is what you think it is."
We argued that out for a while. He knew of my disturbances that
I just mentioned, how I felt about them. He used them.
And I said, "Well, I don't know\ Maybe I will give it a try. I don't
know." I didn't commit myself.
About a week passed and he came back to me and he said, "Say,
what is this about you?"
I said, "What do you mean?"
He said, "Well, I understand you were expelled."
I said, "Expelled from what?"
He said, "From the Communist Party."
I said, "Not to my knowledge ; no, of course, I wasn't."
He said, "I understand there Avere a lot of charges against you and
you were expelled back in New York in 1936."
I said, "Why, that is a lot of poppycock. I w-alked away."
He said, "Well, that is the story." And he said, "Brother, if I
were you 1 would get that cleared up, because if you don't get that
cleared up your name is mud in this town."
Mr. Tavenner. Who was it that you w^ere conferring with ?
Mr. Lytton. George Beck.
Mr. Walter. When was that?
Mr. Lyttox. 1944, I would say approximately August or Septem-
ber.
Mr. Walter. I mean when he said "Your name is mud in this
tOW'U."
Mr. Lytton. He didn't say it is. He said it would be.
Mr. Walter. Unless you had this cleared up.
Mr. Lytton. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Beck has appeared, as you know, as a witness
before this committee.
Mr. Lytton. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And he testified as to Communist Party member-
ship and his subsequent withdrawal from the Communist Party.
Mr. Walitsr. Was it the fact that at that time, unless you were ac-
tive in the Communist Party, your opportunity to progress in your
profession was hurt?
Mr. Lytton. I am not prepared to answer by just saying it was or
it wasn't a fact. Congressman, because my own experience, which will
follow, was so short that I haven't knowledge as to whether it was a
fact at that time. I am willing to testify as to what happened to me.
Mr. Walter. But it w^as a fact at that time if you were a member
of the Communist Party your opportunities were enhanced ?
Mr. Lytton. I don't know if they were enhanced or they weren't
enhanced. I do know that naturally ; we will say if you belong to the
right fraternity your fraternity brothers are going to give you a lift,
and that you can just take for granted if you belong to the Elks and
there are a lot of Elks in an industry, whatever it may be, you are
going to have certain opportunities enhanced.
396 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
But I am not prepared to answer in terms of whether that was a
fact at that time. I was told that it was a fact, but I have no evidence
it was a fact nor, incidentally, did I ^\v& one hoot,
Mr. Velde. Mr, Counsel, I believe this would be an appropriate
jolace to recess at this time.
Before rocessino;, the Chair would like to make a statement for the
benefit of the viewing audience. This morninf^ I ordered that tele-
vision be cut off durino; the testimony of Mr. Huebsch, who was rep-
resented by ]\[r, Estei-man as counsel. This order was based on the
ruling that the committee made last Monday, in answer to a motion
that was submitted by Mr, Esterman, in which he demanded that all
television equipment be removed and that as long as his witness, Mr,
Huebsch, was on, the proceedings should not be televised.
Now, there are some very serious legal problems involved in this
hearing. The connnittee recognized that fact and without any idea in
mind, I am sure, of depriving the public of this important informa-
tion, acceded to the witness' demands and request, and accordingly' we
necessarily had to ask the television cameras to desist from further
televising the proceedings. We hope this will not happen again, but if
it does, of course, I hope the public understands that it is because we
are not only trying to be fair, entirely fair to the witnesses, but be-
cause of certain legal problems involved in this process.
We will be in recess until 2 o'clock,
(Thereupon, at 12 noon, the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at
2 p, m,, same day,)
ATTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 2: 10 p, m,, of the same day, the proceedings were
resumed. Representatives Harold H, Velde (chairman), Donald L.
Jackson, Kit Clardy, Gordon H, Scherer, Francis E. Walter (appear-
ance noted in transcript), Morgan M, Moulder, Clyde Doyle, and
James B. Frazier, Jr,, being present,)
Mr. Velde, The committee will come to order.
Let the record show that a full quorum of the committee is present.
The Chair wislies to announce that the hearing which we had this
morning will be continued until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, due
to the fact we have other witnesses we would like to hear at this time,
Mr. Counsel, do you have a witness to call?
Mr. Taat3NNer. Mr. Joe Springer,
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this com-
mittee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr, Springer, I do.
Mr. Velde. Before any questions are asked of the witness, I should
like to make a statement.
The connnittee, during the course of its current investigation in
California, has developed information that recentl}' there was held at
Crestline, Calif., a secret Communist Party school. According to the
information available at this time, the school was held during the
weekend of December 5 to 7, 1952, at a place called Camp Tenaya.
The committee has ascertained this camp, which is closed during
the winter months, is under the operation of Joe and Preva Springer.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 397
It has further been ascertained the Coniniunist Party school held
there was not an ordinary school, l)ut one of great importance. This
school was only for Conimnnist Party functionaries and was held
upon the direction of high Communist Party ofiicials.
Also in attendance at this school, in addition to the Springers, was
Max Klansky and Walter Smith, both of wliom have been identified
to the committee as members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. Will the Chair yield to me the opportunity to
interrogate and cross-examine the witness on this subject?
Mr. Velde. If the gentleman will wait until I finish my statement,
I will be glad to yiekl to him first.
Also it is of particular concern that this school was one of a series
of new schools to be held by the Communist Party for the purpose of
issuing directives to infiltrate shops in key industries, and in par-
ticular, defense establishments.
It is alleged that this school was concluded with an announcement
that a dictatorship of the proletariat would take over immediately
after a revolution to secure power, and that it would be necessary for
the party comrades to safeguard against the resurgence of capitalism.
The announcement also pointed out it had taken the Soviet Union
27 years to accomplish this purpose.
The witness Joe Springer has been called to assist the committee in
verifying this information regarding the school at Crestline.
Now I yield the floor to the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Jackson. Would the gentleman yield for a moment?
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Does the witness object to both the video and the
audio part of the television ?
Mr. Springer. I do.
Mr. Jackson. The request is made that neither be used during the
course of his testimony ?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in recess for 5 minutes.
(Short recess was taken.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Velde. Let the record show at this point that present are
Mr. Jackson, Mr. Clardy, Mr. Scherer, Mr. Moulder, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Frazier, and the chairman, j\Ir. Velde. A quorum of the full
committee.
Mr. Springer
Mr. Springer. Mr, Chairman, may I make a request? The light
bothers me.
Mr. Velde. As I understand it, I would like to get the picture clear,
as far as television is concerned, what you do object to and what you
don't object to. Do you object if the television cameras do not turn
their lights toward you or photograph you during the course of the
hearing? If they are allowed to continue and make photographs of
other parts of the room and other people in the audience, including
members of the committee, but they are ordered not to turn their lens
directly toward yon, do you have any objection to that ?
Mr. Springer. The lights would bother me. I understand that tele-
vision, you have to have a certain amomit of equipment; and, there-
fore, the lights would bother me; and, if you don't mind, I would like
398 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
the lights off. Therefore, I don't think you would be able to televise
M^ithout lights.
Mr. Clakdy. Suppose the lights were turned away from the wit-
ness, and it would be some relief up here, too, from the heat, but if we
turn thorn to the back, away from you, would you have any objection?
Mr. SriaxGEK. Mr. Congressman, I prefer that the television would
be off.
Mr. Velde. By that, you mean both audio and video ?
Mr. Spiuxger. Correct.
Mr. Velde. The Chair is constrained to grant the request of the
witness, in view of the vote of the committee on this matter.
And again I wish to say to the television audience that we regret
that it is necessary to ask the television company to turn their cameras
off at this point.
The meeting will proceed. The. Chair recognizes the gentleman
from Missouri, Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Sphixger. Can we get those lights off, if you don't mind, Mr.
Chairman ?
Mr. Velde. We will suspend until the lights are turned off.
Mr. Moulder. After hearing the statement by the chairman, my
particular interest was directed to your case and the testimony' j^ou
are about to give, especially because in my congressional district we
have a number of summer camps.
I understand you are the owner of a summer camp ?
Mr. Springer. Mrs. Springer and myself are the owners of the
camp.
Mr. Moulder. Information has been carried to me on the subject
which I am about to interrogate you on.
Mr. S("herer. I can't hear you.
Mr. Velde. Will the gentleman yield to identify the witness and
counsel ?
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH SPRINGER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN
Mr. ]Moui.DER. Your name is »Toseph Springer, I understand.
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. Are you represented here by counsel ?
Mr. Springer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Will counsel identify himself?
Mr. EsTERMAX". William B. Esterman.
Mr. DoYi.E. Hadn't you better make sure that the witness is per-
fectly comfortable now and his eyes are not bothered in any way?
Are you comfortable?
Mr. Springer. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. Where do you reside, Mr. Springer?
Mr. Springer. I reside in Los Angeles.
Mr. Moulder. Can you give us your exact address?
Mr. Springer. 4237 Drucker, D-r-u-c-k-e-r, Street, zone 32, Los
Angeles.
Mr. Moulder. Where were you born ?
Mr. Sprixger. I Avas born in Poland.
Mr. Moulder. In what vear?
COIMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 399
Mr. Springer. 1910.
Mr. Moulder. Are you a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Springer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. How did you become a citizen?
Mr. Springer. I came here as a minor; my father took out his
papers in 1928.
Mr. Moulder. The chairman in his statement referred to a camp.
What is the name of the camp of which you and your wife are the
proprietor and owner ?
Mr. Springer. My wife and I run the camp of Camp Tenaya,
T-e-n-a-y-a, and we took that name from a lake in Yosemite.
Mr. Moulder. Where is that camp located?
Mr. Springer. Crestline, Calif.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I really can't hear the questions or
the answers. I wonder if the loudspeaking equipment is working
again in this room.
Mr. Moulder. What kind of camp is it, Mr. Springer?
Mr. Springer. A children's camp run during the summer vacation
when children get oif from school.
Mr. Moulder. And for what period of time during the summer?
Mr. Springer. From June up to September.
Mr. Moulder. You don't operate the camp in that respect during
the wintertime.
Mr. Springer. No.
Mr. Moulder. During this last year, during the months of, par-
ticularly the date of December 5 through to December 7 of 1952
of last year, were you then operating the camp ?
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Springer. During the off season, so to speak, after the camp
closes we usually rent it out to various organizations or groups of
families that want to rent the camp in order to defray some of the
expenses that are incurred.
Mr. ]\IouLDER. On those dates, December 5, 6, and 7, were you then
here in Los Angeles or were you at the camp ?
Mr. Esterman. What year?
Mr. Moulder. 1952.
Mr. Springer. I don't recall the exact dates. However, we have
rented that camp during the month of December or November. I
don't recall the exact date.
Mr. Moulder. Of last year?
Mr. Springer. Last year; yes.
Mr. Moulder. Now, were you there at any time during the month
of December of last year ?
Mr. Springer. I would like to consult with my attorney, if you don't
mind.
Mr. Velde. You may consult your attorney.
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Esterman. Thank you very much. I was asking if that was
amusing, because some of the audience seems to think so.
i\Ir. Velde. I am sorry. Let us have order in the audience so the
witness can have full advantage of conferring with his counsel.
Mr. Springer. In view of the statement which was read here by
the chairman of this committee at the outset, I would decline to an-
400 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
swer this question, because it would mean to testify against myself
and, tlioi'efore, I claim the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. MouLnER. It is in view of the statement made by the chairman
that information has come to this committee, and an opportunity is
now being given to you to clarify and to testify concerning the facts
or to deny them and clear yourself, and we are just trying to find out
from you whetlier or not this information is true. You are now being
given the opportunity to tell us whether or not it is true.
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
]\ri\ Springer. Mr. Congressman, you have asked not 1 question,
but you have asked 3 in 1.
Mr. Moulder. I just asked you if you were at your camp during the
month of December. It is a very simple question. You often go
there, do you not?
Mr. Springer. I think that I have made my answer very clear, just
a while ago when I referred to the remarks made by the chairman at
the outset of this meeting — of this hearing.
Mr. Mout.der. Well, were you there, then, during the month of
November of 1952?
Mr. Springer. I think that this is the same question, and I can only
give you the same answer.
Mr. Moulder. Did you operate the camp last summer?
Mr. Springer. I did.
Mr. Moulder. You did and your wife, also?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. And now you don't want to tell us whether or not
you were back there in the month of December 1952? Is that the way
I understand your testimony?
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Springer. I think I have answered that question before.
Mr. INIouLDER. Now, isn't it true, or is it a fact that during Decem-
ber, on the 5th, 6th, and 7th, at Camp Tenaya, at about midnight, ap-
proximately 20 people traveled there by automobiles and held a meet-
ing at that camp, and you were present at that time?
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
]Nfr. Esterman. Can we have an agreement if he says it is the same
thing, that that applies to his reference to the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. Yes. Let it be imderstood if the witness declines to
answer "for the same reasons," those reasons are because of the fifth
amendment to the Constitution, which provide against self-incrimina-
tion.
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
]\Ir. Springer. I think T have answered this question previously,
and I give you the same answer to this question.
Mr. Moulder. Do you know whether or not those people were there
at the camp during the month of December, on the 5th, 6th. and 7th
of last year?
Mr. Springer. I think I have answered that before,
Mr. Moui.DER. Isn't it true that they were all leaders of the Com-
munist Party of this area?
Mr. Springer. That is the same question again and the same answer
I can give you.
Mr. Velde. That is, you decline to answer?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 401
Mr. Jackson. For the same reasons?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. Now, are you acquainted with a man by the name of
Max Klansky?
Mr. Springer. I don't think that you can ask me a question of that
sort.
]\ir. Moulder. Well, I asked it and all you have to do is answer it.
Mr. Springer. I understand you asked it, but I am standing on my
constitutional ground and I give you the same answer to the same
questions.
Mr. Moulder. Was he present there at that meeting ?
Mr. Springer. Same question again and the same answer.
Mr. Jackson. For the same reason?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
Mr. Velde. In other words, you decline to answer the question for
the same reasons you declined to answer other questions?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. For the reason you feel it might tend to incriminate
you?
Now, is it true or not that Max Klansky is known to you personally
and intimately as one of the organizers of the Juarez division of the
Communist Party ?
INIr. Springer. Same question and I can give you the same answer.
Mr. Scherer. It isn't the same question. It is a different question.
Mr. Velde. I agree with the gentleman from Ohio.
Do you decline to answer the question ?
Mr. Esterman. Can we consult for a moment?
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Esterman. He says he wants an understanding. He says he
declines to answer for the same reasons he gave before, or will he
need to repeat them? Will it be understood if he says he declines
to answer the questions for the same reasons he gave before, that it
will be understood he is incorporating them by reference without
having to give them again.
Mr. Velde. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. Counsel, the chairman stipulated that with the com-
mittee, stipulated with you and the witness before. The chairman
had the authority to stipulate that would be the fact. You don't need
to ask it again.
Mr. Esterman. No.
Mr. Moulder. Do you know the purpose for which this meeting
was held there at your camp ?
Mr. Springer. I decline to answer for the same reasons I have
given before.
Mr. Moulder. Don't you know it is a fact that at that meeting Max
Klansky made a speech and you were present there with your wife
and he advised all those present, because of security reasons, not to
walk around in the daytime and to stay in their cottages so they
wouldn't be seen by anyone else in that area ?
Mr. Springer. I decline to answer for the same reasons I have
given previously.
Mr. Moulder. Isn't it true you took notes at that meeting and made
a record of wliat was stated and said and how you AVere instructed
by Max Klansky at the meeting?
402 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Springer. I decline to answer on the same grounds I stated
before.
Mr. IMouLDER. And tliat tliis meeting was composed of the top
functionaries and tlie leaders of the Communist Party of this area ^
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Esterman. May I ask a question ?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. And I understand you decline to answer because of
the same reasons previously given ?
Mr. Esterman. I didn't understand the question. When you say
"and," do you mean that previous questions have been answered
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
Mr. Esterman. That is not a fact.
Mr. ]\IouLDER. I am just asking you if those statements which I
have stated are true or false. Now, you decline to answer — that is
what I understand — for the reasons previously given?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. Isn't it true that Max Klansky, in his opening re-
marks at this meeting, referred to the meeting as one of the historic
meetings of the Communist Party in this area and one of the series
of the new schools being held by the Communist Party in California?
Is it true or not that he made such a statement there at that meeting?
Mr. Springer. I decline to answer on the same reasons I have given
previously.
Mr. Moulder. What was your reaction to his statement that the
group had met there at your resort or your camp and that they re-
flected the Bolshevik devotion of the comrades, all those present, as
being loyal working Communists?
Mr. Springer. I decline to answer on the same reasons I have given
previously.
Mr. Moulder. Was it Max Klansky who spoke at that meeting
wherein he stated and delivered a lecture at this meeting on the sub-
ject of how the Communist Party members there present were to
recruit other members of the party to infiltrate into the shops and
key industries and defense establishments, and particularly in the
California area?
Mr. Springer. I think I have answered it before. I will decline
to answer this one on the same grounds I stated before.
JNIr. Moulder. Are you a member of the Commimist Party?
Mr. Springer. I will decline to answer this question on the same
grounds I have giA^en before.
Mr. Moulder. Or have vou ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Springer. Same question, the same answer.
Mr. Moulder. What are you doing now ?
Mr. Springer. I am working.
Mr. Moulder. What are you working at?
Mr, Springer. Producing ladies' coats and suits, an operator.
Mr. Doyle. Where is your factory located?
Mr. Springer. In Los Angeles.
Mr. Doyle. Wliere ?
Mr. Springer. I think it is a verj- unfair question, because it
might
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 403
Mr. Doyle. You don't have to answer it if you think it will incrim-
inate you.
Mr. Springer. I don't think it is pertinent to this hearing; and,
therefore, I don't think I am obligated to answer a question of this
sort. If you can tell me the legislative purpose of it, I might con-
sider it.
Mr. Clardy. May I ask a question at this juncture?
Mr. Velde. Will you yield to
Mr. Moulder. I will yield to the gentleman.
Mr. Clardy. Have any Connnunist meetings been held at that loca-
tion where your manufacturing operations are carried on ?
Mr. Springer. I decline to answer on the same grounds I have given
previously.
Mr. Clardy. Where is that located?
Mr. Springer. I think I have asked before for the legislative pur-
pose of this question.
Mr. Clardy. I am asking the question. Where is the shop located?
Mr. Springer. I think I have just asked you, Mr. Congressman
Mr. Clardy. I am not answering.
Mr. Velde. The witness is here to answer questions propounded
by members of the committee and not to ask questions of the com-
mittee. So, the Chair would appreciate it very much if you would
answer, or decline to answer.
Mr. Esterman. May I explain ?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Esterman. He is asking for the legislative purpose under the
case of Jones v. Securities and Exchange Commission. If the Chair
will order him to answer and state if it has a legislative purpose, he
will answer.
Mr. Velde. I am sure the address of the building where he now
operates is very necessary in the performance by this committee of
their duties, and it will be useful to know what the address of your
shop is.
Mr. Moulder. May I proceed ?
Mr. Clardy. Let's get the answer, and I am done.
Mr. Springer. 910 South Los Angeles Street.
Mr. Moulder. Would you give us the name of your wife?
Mr. Springer. I think I have stated that before.
Mr. Moulder. I don't recall it.
Mr. Springer. Preva Springer; P-r-e-v-a.
Mr. Moulder. I will yield to the gentleman from California.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Springer, have you ever rented the property
known as Camp Tenaya to any person or persons known by you to be
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Springer. I think that this question is similar to questions
placed to me before, and I will refuse to answer this one on the same
grounds that I have given before.
Mr. Jackson. How many persons lectured during the period in
question last December at Camp Tenaya ?
Mr. Springer. That is the same question, and all I can do is give
you the same answer.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel, do you have some questions to ask?
Mr. Tavenner. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, may I ask some questions?
404 COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. I pass.
Mr. Doyle. I want to ask a couple of questions.
Mr. Clardy. I knoAv I won't get an answer; so I will give up.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle, I am familiar with the Crestline area geographically,
being a Los Angeles County resident and loving the mountains. How
many cabins do you have in your Camp Tenaya ?
Mr. Springer. I have 1 large lodge and 6 platform tents — what you
call them? — with wooden sidings.
Mr. Doyle. When you say "1 large room," is that an auditorium or
a little assembly room where you have music and dances and so forth?
Mr. Springer. No. There is a dining area there, cooking facilities
for the summertime for the children.
Mr. Doyle. Is this a large room ?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
Mr. Jackson. It is a lodge, isn't it ?
Mr. Springer. Yes ; a lodge. It is one huge room, and there is only
one bedroom in it, and the fireplace; and it has, naturally, seating
capacity around it.
Mr. Doyle. How many years back does the ownership of you and
your wife to this nice camp extend?
Mr. Springer. One year.
Mr. Doyle. Are you the sole owner, you and your wife?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. Neither directly nor indirectly is there any other owner-
ship other than you two ?
Mr. Springer. No, there isn't any. As a matter of fact, we hocked
our house to make a down payment on it.
Mr. Doyle. Have you traveled to Poland or Russia since you became
an American citizen?
Mr. Springer. No.
Mr. Doyle. Or any other foreign country?
Mr. Springer. No. I might have been once down to Tijuana,
maybe, for an hour or so, that is about all.
Mr. Doyle. Have you written any books or pamphlets of any sort
since you became an adult?
Mr. Springer. I don't think that that is necessary for me to answer
this on the ground that I have stated previously.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, whatever books, if you have written any,
or pamj)hlets, would tend to incriminate you; is that your answer?
Mr. EsTERMAN. Excuse us.
Mr. Doyle. I haven't asked you whether 3^011 wrote any Communist
books or not.
Mr. EsTERMAN. Do you mean any kind of book?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, is he an author for pay, or an amateur, or what,
don't you see?
'JNIr. Springi.r. I never wrote anything except a letter, maybe, to a
friend. All I know is I am an operator at cloaks and suits, producing
ladies' coats and suits, that's all.
Mr. Doyle. I am sure that wouldn't incriminate you.
This meeting that was held up there in December, I mean, you had
some people up there in tlie month of December, didn't you? I am
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 405
not asking you who, now ; I am asking if you rented any cabins in tlie
montli of December?
Mr. Springek. ]Mr. Chairman, I think that a simihir question of this
sort was asked me before. I think I have answered that question. I
think it would be ridiculous on my part to say again the same thing
as I said before.
Mr. Velde. You can say it in a lot less time than you have just
used making that statement.
Mr. Springer. Do I have to answer this question ?
Mr. Velde. Yes, a reasonable repetition.
Mr. Springer. Therefore I will answer it the same way that I have
answered before. I stated previously that I cannot and will not
answer a question of this sort on the grounds that I have stated previ-
ously.
Mr. Doyle. I assume, or am I in error — I ha\e been away from
California now several years in Washington, and I may not be exactly
familiar with the law involving the keeping of registers and a record
of people in lodges and hotels, and facilities.
(Representative Francis E. Walter entered the hearing room at
this point, 2 : 55 p. m.)
Mr. Doyle. Do you keep a register of people who use your rooms
and assembly rooms overnight ?
Mr. Springer. Mr. Doyle, would you clarify this question for me?
Mr. Doyle. As I recall it, Mr. Springer, there at least used to be a
California hotel, lodge, and inn law which required you to register
every person who comes to your camp and stays overnight. I assume
that law is still on the books. Is it, do you know ?
Mr. EsTERMAN. You don't have to answer that.
Mr. Doyle. Your counsel says you don't have to answer that. I
think you are charged with knowledge of the law, however, if it is on
tlie books.
Now, I want to ask you this question : In the month of December
did you keep a record of all the adults who stayed in your inn and
lodge overnight at any time during the month ?
Mr. Springer. I think I have answered previously, when the chair-
man stated it, I have answered the chairman before, and it is the same
type of a question that was presented to me at the beginning, and,
therefore, I would decline to answer this question on the same basis,
on the same grounds that I have stated before.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, you claim your constitutional privilege
that it might incriminate you if you stated that you complied with
the law of the State of California in keeping a register of your hotel
guests. That is the effect of your answer to me. Witness.
Mr. EsTERMAN. Is that a question ?
Mr. Doyle. It is my statement. I wanted to explain. Counsel.
Now, do I understand that in view of my statement of Avhat I am
trying to get from you — I don't see how it would incriminate you —
I am not arguing with you, but I am just stating to you frankly that
if it is the law of California, and I believe it to be, I don't see how
in God's name it could incriminate you under the fifth amendment
if you said that you kept a register of all your guests in the month
of December 1952. Now, if you didn't keep it, and it is the law, I
can't understand why you wouldn't want to say anything about it.
Mr. Esterjvian. There is no question.
31747— 53— pt. 1 10
406 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Doyle. I asked him if he kept a register of all his adult guests
during the month of December 1952.
Mr. EsTEKMAN. He answered that. Do you want him to answer it
again?
Mr. Doyle. He pleaded the fifth amendment.
Mr. Es'n:RMAN. There is no question pending.
Mr. Doyle. The question still stands and his answer still stands.
V\'ell, one more question, Mr, Chairman.
Did you participate in sending out any written invitations or an-
nouncements for any adult group to come as a group to your camp
ill the montli of December 1052? I mean through a letter or through
a printing advertisement or an invitation.
Mr. Springer. I think that to this question I could only give you,
Mr. Dovle, the same answer that I have given previously-
Mr. Doyle. Well, you are running a public camp, aren't you
Mr. Esterman. Wait a minute. He hasn't finished his answer.
Mv. Springer. On the same grounds of the fifth amendment that I
stated previously.
Mr. Doyle. Let me ask you this : If I misunderstand, I didn't want
to misunderstand you. This is a public camp and you rent it for
hire to folks Avho come and have the fee to pay it, don't you ; that is
ti'ue, isn't it^
Mr. Springer. It is a children's camp mainly.
Mr. Doyle. But you rent to whatever qualified children come, and
their fees are paid?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
Mr. DciYLE. Don't you keep their parents there with the children,
ever?
Mr. Springer. No.
Mv. DttYLE. You send the parents home after they bring the
children (
Mr. Springer. The children come up there and the parents leave
them for 2 or 3 weeks or 4: weeks, or for the entire season.
Mr. Doyle. How do the children know the camp is there? How
do you get notice to parents that your camp is open in the summer?
What announcement do you make?
Mr. Springer. We have a brochure, and if you are interested, Mr.
Doyle, after the hearing I could give you one.
Mr. Doyle. I would appreciate having one, of all copies of your
publicity during the last year.
Mr. Springer. And then there is advertisements in papers.
Mr. Doyle. Will you furnish the committee with a copy of all your
ads during the last year? No doubt you keep a scrapbook. Let us
inspect them, at least.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Doyle, I would like to accommodate you and the
committee. However, my counsel advises me that if we get a formal
request, and I would like my counsel to look it over, I will be glad to
furnish all these things to the committee.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, 1 am making that request that the chair-
man ask tliat the operator of this public camp furnish the committee
a copy of all the announcements made through newspapers or other-
wise during the last year in order to attract public trade at his lodge,
or private groups.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 407
Mr. Velde. Did the witness say that he would be willing to do that?
Mr. EsTERMAN. He said he would be willing if I could see the formal
request.
Mr. Springer. If my counsel could see the formal request.
Mr. Esterman. Give us a subpena duces tecum.
INIr. Velde. The witness is requested to abide by the wishes of the
gentleman from California, Mr. Doyle, relative to the material that
he asked for.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask this closing question, perhaps, without being
bound that this is my last question : Do you advertise in the People's
World or the Daily Worker, two of the papers which by reputation are
Communist Party papers, for your camp?
Mr. Springer. I cannot answer this question for the same reasons
that I have given you before under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. Do you advertise in any of the daily papers in the Los
Angeles area? Did you advertise during the last year in the Los
Angeles — well, the Times, the Herald, or the Examiner ; did you place
ads with them advertising your camp?
Mr. Springer. I advertised in the B'nai B'rith Messenger, the
Valley Jewish News, and La Opinion, a Spanish-speaking paper.
Those I think are the only papers.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, at this point I think it is vei^ proper
and pertinent that I give some 8 or 10 lines of Public Law 831 to this
witness' knowledge, because he has asked what legislative purpose was
served by certain questions asked by my colleagues and myself.
In answering that question, in part, may I say for your information.
Public Law 831 of the 81st Congress, chapter 1024, the second session,
title I, section 2, said this — now this is a declaration by your United
States Congress, Mr. Springer. [Reading:]
Necessity fob Legislation.— As a result of evidence addiicecl before the vari-
ous coinniitlees of the Senate and House of Representatives, the Congress hereby
finds that
(1) There exists a workl Communist movement which, in its origins, its de-
velopment, and its present practice, is a worldwide revolutionary movement
whose purpose it is, by treachery, deceit, infiltration into other groups (govern-
mental and otherwise), espionage, sabotage, terrorism, and any other means
deemed necessary to establish a Communist totalitarian dictatorship in the
countries throughout the world through the medium of a worldwide Communist
organization.
Did you ever know that the United States Congress made that
declaration during the 81st Congress as a matter of national policy ?
Mr. Springer. Counsel advises me that I don't have to answer this
question.
Mr. Doyle. Would it incriminate you in any way to admit whether
or not you knew what bills and laws Congress has passed?
Mr. Springer. I didn't say that it would incriminate me to any
extent. But counsel advises me that I don't have to answer that, and
I am not an attorney ; therefore, if my counsel advises me, I presume
that that is the proper position for me to take.
Mr. Doyle. I wish the record to show, Mr. Chairman, to my last
question or statement, I am surprised to learn that any member of the
American bar feels that it would incriminate any client to admit that
his client knew the text of bills passed by the United States Congress.
JNIr. Velde. Mr. Doyle, counsel didn't say that he believed it would
incriminate him.
408 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Doyle. But his client pleaded the fifth amendment.
Mr. Sprincjer. I didn't.
IVIr. Doyle. He gave the same answer that he gave before, and that
involved the fifth amendment, believe it or not.
Mr. Velde. I believe, Mr. Doyle, that the answer was that he was
advised by counsel that he didn't have to answer that question.
Mr. EsTERMAN. He will be glad to answer it if you want to proceed.
Mr. Velde. Proceed and ask him why.
Mr. Doyle. I want to know why you refused to state if you ever
heard of that act.
JNfr. Springer. Mr. Doyle, I don't usually follow all the laws that
Congress passes; and, therefore, I don't know what the specific law
refers to. All I know is that I go to work and I make cloaks and suits.
Mr. Doyle. Of course, as Members of Congress, we don't claim that
we know all the laws backward, but this law refers to one subject, a
world Communist movement, and claims a world conspiracy.
I think that is all, Mr. Chairman.
INfr. Tavenner. Mv. Springer, did anyone have a joint interest or
a financial interest of any character with you and your wife in the
property that was used as a camp, at any time during the month of
December 1952 ?
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Springer. I can only give you the same answers that I have
given you previously, Mr. Tavenner. I think I have made my posi-
tion clear in reference to the camp, who are the owners. However, on
this question, the way it is phrased I cannot answer it. I can only
answer it on the previous grounds, as I said before — the fifth amend-
ment.
Mv. Tavenner. Let me understand your answer a little further.
You testified that no one was interested or is interested in that prop-
erty at the present time except you and your wife. That was your
testimony originally.
Now, I am merely asking you whether or not any other person had
an interest with vou and vour wife during the month of December
1952.
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Springer. Mr. Tavenner, I think at the outset — I don't re-
member which gentleman here, I think Mr. Moulder, nsked tlie ques-
tion : Who are the owners of the camp ? And at that time I stated
Mrs. Springer and myself are the owners of that camp, and that is
since last year.
Mv. Tavenner. And my question is, AVlio were the owners in De-
cember 1952?
Mr. Springer. So, I just stated that since last year Mr. and Mrs.
Sj^i'inger are the owners of the camp.
Mr. Tavenner. Now will you answer my question, please? Who
were the owners of that camp in 1952, December 1952 ?
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Esterman. He answered that several times.
Mr. Springer. I think I have answered it.
Mr. Tavenner. You have not answered that question at all.
Mr. Clardy. By the word "since," do you mean during the entire
year 1952?
Mr. Es'perman. Wlien did you buy it?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 409
Mr. Springer. We bought the camp last year, and it went through
escrow, I believe, sometime in the month of March or April, and we
are the sole owners. As a matter of fact, we are still making pay-
ments on it.
Mr. Clardy. Since INIarch of last year?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
]Mr. Tavenner. Then do you mean to state that no one else has had
a joint interest with you in this property since March or April of 1952?
Mr. EsTERMAN. Yon just answered that.
Mr. Springer. We are the owners, as I just stated. It is the same
thing as before. We are the owners of the camp. Camp Tenaya, since
last year.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand that you are, but have you been the
sole owners since March or April of 1952 ?
Mr. Springer. There is no partnership. Mr. Chairman, I really
can't understand Mr. Tavenner's questions. I really don't know. I
just stated awhile ago that Mrs. Springer and Mr. Springer, myself,
are the sole owners of the camp. What more does Mr. Tavenner
want ?
Mr. Velde. And have been since March or April of 1952 ?
Mr. Springer. That is correct.
Mr. Velde. Subject to a mortgage?
Mr. Springer. That is correct, Bank of America.
Mr. Velde. I think that answers the question.
Mr. Tavenner. That does answer the question.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Springer, will you tell the committee what other
names you have used besides the name of Springer?
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
INIr, Springer. What names does the Congressman have? I would
like to know.
Mr. ScHEEER. I am asking you what names you have used besides the
name of Springer. Springer wasn't vonr original name, I know that.
Mr. Springer. Well, don't tell me that. This I resent. This I
resent.
Mr. ScHERER. What other names have you used?
Mr. Esterman. Ask him where he found out that that isn't your
original name.
Mr. Springer. I would like to have proof of that, Mr. Congress-
man, what other names, because you have made an accusation here
against me.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I move that the witness be instructed
to answer my question. Wliat other names has he used ?
Mr. Velde. Do you understand what the question is, Mr. Witness?
Mr. Springer. The Congressman said what names do I use. IVIy
name is Joseph Springer.
Mv. Scherer. What other names have you used other than Joseph
Springer?
Mr.DoTLE. If any.
Mr. Scherer. In the past.
Mr. Springer. I don't go around lying like some of your witnesses
did here last week, or yesterday, rather.
Mr. Scherer. Well, all I am asking you is
Mr. Springer. And don't make any accusations against me like that
because I think it is very unethical on your part.
410 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. ScHERER. All right. You answer my question, then. Answer
this (juestion : Have you used any other names in the past other than
Springer?
Mr. Sprixger. I have not.
Mr. ScHEKER. You have not used any other names other than
Springer? What name did you use as a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Springer. I refuse to answer that question on the previous
grounds.
]\Ir. ScHERER. Did you use another name as a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Springer. Same question and same answer.
Mr. Scherer. Now, are you an agent of the Russian Government?
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Esterman. Sit back and take it easy. We want to consult.
(At this point Mr. Springer conferred further with Mr. Ester-
man.)
Mr. Springer. Mr. Chairman, would the Congressman from Ohio,
I believe it is
Mr. Scherer. That is right.
Mr. Springer. Will you explain to me that question ?
Mr. Scherer. Are you an agent of the Russian Government?
Mr. Springer. What does that mean?
Mr. Scherer. Your attorney can tell you what an agent means.
Mr. Esterman. His attorney can't because his attorney doesn't
know what you mean. Do you mean is he a registered agent ?
Mr. Scherer. No. I mean is he an agent, an agent of the Russian
Government in any way, in any capacity ?
(At this point ]Mi\ Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Springer. I could only give you one answer. I can only answer
in one way. I would like to answer it in a different way, but I could
only answer it in one way, and that is on the statements that I made
before under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. You refuse to answer on the ground that your answer
might incriminate you ; is that right ?
Mr. Esterman. He doesn't say anything.
Mr. Scherer. All right. If you were not an agent of the Russian
Government would you so state?
Mr. Springer. The same question, the same answer.
Mr. Scherer. Well, you can give the same answer but it is cer-
tainly not the same question. Now, are you an agent of the Commu-
nist Party?
Mr. Springer. The same question and the same answer.
Mr. Scherer. Were you ever an agent of the Communist Party?
Mr. Springer, Same question and the same answer. I think T
have told you that before.
IVIr. Scherer. Now, have you ever received any compensation from
the Russian Government?
Mr. Springer. I could only say
Mr. Scherer. Directly or indirectly?
Mr. Springer. I could only answer you the same way as I did
before,
Mr. Esterman, Take it easy.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 411
Mr. ScHERER. Have you ever received any compensation from the
Communist Party?
Mr. Springer. I could only answer you on the same grounds that
I have stated before.
Mr. Velde. And that is a declination to answer, you decline to
answer the question?
Mr. Springer. I decline to answer the question on the grounds I
Ftated before.
Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson?
Mr Jackson. I have no questions.
Mr. Yeij)e. Mr. Clardy?
Mr. Clardy. No.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Walter?
Mr. Walter. No.
Mr Velde. Mr. Moulder?
Mr. Moulder. No.
Mr. Velde. Mr Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. I heard an answer a few minutes ago, perhaps 5 or 6
questions back, in which you stated : "I am not lying like the other
witnesses W' ho testified yesterday." Who lied yesterday ? Now, I am
sure the record will show that you used some such term in which you
said that witnesses lied to this committee yesterday.
Now, to me, Mr. Chairman, that is, unless it is cleared up, equivalent
to his charging in the same forum, that a witness or witnesses on
yesterday were heard by him to lie or perjure themselves. He was
here yesterday, apparently. Were you here yesterday, Mr. Springer ?
Mr. Springer. I was.
Mr. Doyle. So you heard the witnesses, apparently, to whom you
referred when you said they lied. Now, if they lied they perjured
themselves before this committee. Now, I am asking you to identify —
and you were here and heard them — I am asking you now to identify
whom you heard lie yesterday on that witness stand to this committee.
1 don't want all the witnesses to have the label of being liars by this
witness.
(At this point, Mr. Springer conferred w4th Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Doyle. We certainly have no knowledge of any lying, perjured
testimony, and if there was any we ought to know it, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. I agree with you, Mr. Doyle, and I will allow^ the wit-
ness to answ^er the question.
(At this point, Mr. Springer conferred further with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Springer. I expressed an opinion here yesterday — I expressed
an opinion here just a little while ago on the answer to Mr. Doyle.
I don't think that I have to explain my answer and I will not explain
my answer.
]Mr. Velde. Has the witness finished with his answer ?
Mr. EsTERiMAN. Yes ; he has finished.
Mr. Doyle. I certainly try to give you every opportunity to explain
it. One q,uestion more.
You emphasized this Avas a children's camp, I suppose, during the
summer. Do you have any classes for the children up there of any
kind, any handcraft or any clay modeling, any blackboard classes, any
swimming classes, any recreation classes?
412 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Springer. I told yon before, Mr. Doyle, I would be willing to
give you a brochuie where it exactly tells of our activities, horseback
ridinir, swiiuniiiig, artcraft, and various woodcraft and naturecraft,
sewing — 1 mean weaving, various types of ball playing for the kids,
and hikes, and et cetera.
Mr. Doyle. I used to be a summer-camp director myself. I would
assume you Mould do some of tliat.
In any of these groups of cliildren that you have during the summer,
are they spoken to or instructed by any member of the Communist
Party or at the request of the Communist Party ?
INIi'. Springer. I will refuse to answer this question, as I have re-
fused in tlie past to answer, on the same grounds I have stated pre-
viously; fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. What ages are the children you take into the camp?
Mr. Springer. From 7 to 15.
Mr. Doyle. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Does counsel have any other questions?
Mr. Tavenner. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Yelde. Is there any reason why this witness should be retained
under subpena any longer?
• Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. If not, the witness is excused, and the committee will
stand in recess for 10 minutes.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left tlie hearing during the recess,
which was from 3 : 28 to 3 : 43 p. m.)
Mr. Jackson. The committee will come to order.
The committee is in receipt of a number of communications pro-
testing the blackout of the television hearings, and it is felt that a very
brief statement in this connection is desirable.
There is involved in the question of television of committee hearings
a constitutional question, and for that reason the committee has seen
fit to take the position that, pending a clearcut legal decision in the
matter, Avitnesses objecting to being televised on the witness stand will
not be so televised.
The committee, contrary to the charges aiid allegations of many of
its critics, operates within the laws of the land and is subject to court
decisions and findings on matters pertinent to its inquiries.
Television, so far as committee sessions are concerned, is largely in
the formative stage and clearcut decisions have not been made on many
problems arising from the use of television as a medium of public in-
formation in connection with committee investigations.
Forcing a witness to appear before the television camera, in spite
of his protests, and in the light of previous decisions, in effect de-
prives the committee of its power to institute legal procedure against
recalcitrant witnesses or to cite for contempt in instances where it is
deemed desirable.
Tlie committee is certain that the people of southern California will
appreciate the realities of the situation as they exist, and will under-
stand the necessity for the occasional periods of blackout. We ask for
that understanding on the part of the people Avho are listening.
Mr. Clardy. May I add one word?
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Another phase of that, I think, we ought to call at-
tention to is the fact that both the television and the press have given
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 413
an excellent service. The press has been giving, I think, the best
coverage I have seen anywhere, and I want to commend them, for
what they have been doing.
The telegrams before ns are overwhelmingly favorable to television,
but I think we ought to let everyone know that what they missed on
television this afternoon they can at least partially get from the press.
Mr. Doyle. The gentlemen would expect that kind of service in
California.
Mr. Clardy. Always a Calif ornian.
Mr. Jacksox. Now that the chamber of commerce discussion is
finished do you have a witness now, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. ]\Iay I make an announcement?
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Dui'ing the course of the testimony of Mr. Bart
Lytton, a message was received by me, raising the question of possible
lack of proper identification of the witness, inasmuch as there was an-
other person by the name, somewhat similar, that was in the screen-
writing field.
I thought I made it perfectly clear in the course of my questioning
that the witness on the stand was a diiferent ])erson from Mr. Herbert
Lytton, who is now engaged in screenwriting.
But in order there be no possible misunderstanding about the matter,
I want to read a message which I received. The message is as fol-
lows, Mr. Herbert Lytton, Social Security Number, 555-227-522, of
1819 Taft Building, called and said he is having telephone complaints
regarding the questioning of Bart Lytton now on the stand, who is also
a screenwriter.
Of course, the testimony was that Mr. Lytton is not now a screen-
writer. Nevertheless, that was the message.
Then T was requested in this message to announce publicly the Mr.
Herbert Lytton is not the party in question. I don't see how any-
thing could have been plainer than wdiat I brought out. If it wasn't,
I thinlc this covers the situation.
Mr. Jackson. It meets the situation. Do you have a witness, Mr.
Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. I would like to call Silvia Eichards.
Mr. Jackson. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give to this subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth so help you God ?
Mrs. Richards. I do.
Mr. Jackson. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Has the witness been sworn?
Mr. Jackson. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF SILVIA RICHARDS
Mr. Ta\t.nner. "What is your name, please ?
Mrs. RicriARDS. Silvia Richards.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you born, Mrs. Richards?
Mrs. Richards. Indianola, Iowa.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Will you give the committee, please, a brief state-
ment of what your formal educational training has been?
Mrs. Richards. I went to grade school and high school in Colorado
Springs, Colo., and I went to Colorado College in Colorado Springs
for 2 years.
414 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel?
Mrs. Richards. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. I suppose you have seen enough of these hearings to
know that all witnesses have the privilege of asking or seeking the
advice of counsel at any time during their testimony, if they so desire.
Mrs. Richards. I understand tliat.
Mr. Tavexxeu. What is your occupation, Mrs. Richards?
Mrs. Richards. I am a screen writer and formerly a radio writer.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in the business
of radio and screen writing '.
Mrs. Richards. Since sometime in 1944. That is about 9 years.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Where did you begin in that work — in California
or in the State of New York I
Mrs. Richards. In California. I came out here in October of 1943.
and I started writing radio scripts, because my husband and I had
separated and he had gone into the Army, and it was a matter of
necessity. I worked that year on Cavalcade of America, Suspense,
Rogues" Gallery, I'hili}) Morris Playhouse, and various other mystery
programs. Mostly on Cavalcade of America and Suspense.
Mr. Tavenner. That was in the course of your work in connection
with radio script writing?
Mrs. Richards. That's right.
Mr. Taaenner. Will you give the committee a description of your
work as a screen writer ?
Mrs. Richards. Well, sometime in 1945 I went to work at Warner
Bros, on Possessed, a picture starring Joan Crawford. Later I worked
at Universal-International for an independent company, Walter
Wanger — a partnership of Walter Wanger and Fritz Lang.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you mind raising your voice just a little?
Mrs. Richards. All right. And I was under contract to them for
about 21/^ to 3 years. The only credit during that period was a picture
called Secret Beyond The Door. Subsequently I did a picture called
Tomahawk for T^niversal-International, and I worked briefly at
Columbia. I sold some original stories, including the original story
for Rancho Notorious, and this last year I did a picture for Bernhardt-
Vidor Productions, for Twentieth Century-Fox release, called "Ruby
Gentry.*'
Since then I have also worked at Columbia again, and am now
working at Twentieth Century-Fox.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee is in receipt of information which
it has had for a period of time, indicating that you were at one time
a member of the Communist Party, and also that you are not a member
of the Communist Party at this time.
Mrs. Richards. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You were a member of the Comnnmist Party at
onetime.
Mrs. Richards. Yes.
INIr. Tavenner. How long were you a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mrs. Richards. Well, I was a member from either late in 1937 or
early 1938 up until early 1946, with several long leaves of absence
during the time that I had my children and had problems of illness
and so on.
Mr. Tavenner. Up until about what time ?
COJVLMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA 415
Mrs. Richards. Early 1946 is about as close as I can fix it. It was
in relation — I can fix it in relation to other events later.
Mr. Moulder. May I inquire Avliat you mean by leave of absence?
JMrs. Richards. For instance, when I married and was leaving —
this was when I lived in New York, and was leaving New York and
leaving my present activities when I knew I was going to have a child.
I asked for a leave of absence from the party and this is often given
under certain circumstances, and so I had no activity in the organi-
zation until after the birth of my second child, which was 2i/^ years
later.
Mr. Clardy. I think it would help if you would stay a little closer
to the microphone and face counsel over here, regardless who of us
may ask questions. It is hard to hear you when you turn your head.
Mrs. Richards. It is a little difficult getting used to it.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, where were you residing in 1937 when you
became a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Richards. In New York City.
Mr. Tavexner. How" were you employed at that time ?
Mrs. Richards. Well, I went to work in New York City in Septem-
ber of 1936. I did a little of free-lance radio w^ork then, although it
was not successful, and I think that at that time I was working for
the World's Fair Corporation in the publicity department where I
worked up until the opening of the fair. This was on the preparation
of the fair before it opened.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, let me ask you to tell the committee the cir-
cumstances which led up to j^our becoming a member of the Commu-
nist Party.
Mrs. Richards. As I say, I went to New York in 1936 and New
York as a whole had a tremendous impact on me. I had come from
a nonindustrial, middle class town. I think anybody knows Colorado
Springs. It is very different from New York.
Mr. Clardy. What tow^n was that?
Mrs. Richards. Colorado Springs. In my j^outh I had heard a
great deal of political discussions, because my father's family for
many generations had been teachers and ministers and missionaries
with an enormous concern about social questions, so I had some pre-
vious interest in these questions.
But when I arrived in New York after my father's death, and
during the depression, I felt somewhat mentally, I think, adrift. I
remember on May 1, 1937, I saw the May Day parade, which was, I
believe, one of the biggest May Day parades ever held in New York.
It was during the Spanish war.
Mr. Tavenner, Can you elevate your voice a little ?
Mrs. Richards. All right. It was during the Spanish war and
there was a tremendous amount of emotion around this parade, and
I was deeply impressed by it and moved by it.
I don't know whether it w'as subsequent to that or just previously
that I met a man socially through a mutual friend, who was either
the circulation manager for Soviet Russia Today or the financial
inanager for Soviet Russia Today. But after the May Day parade,
in conversations with him, I learned that he was a Communist, and
he told me how the Communist Party was in the leadership on all
416 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES L\ THE LOS ANGELES AREA
these questions wliicli concerned me; the rise of fascism in Europe
and the Spanish war, the questions of unemployment and the
de|)ression.
He saw tliat I was interested and he invited me to visit a neiofhbor-
hood branch on Avenue C near Fourth Street in New York City. I
went and visited it sometime during the summer of 1937 with him,
and
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to interrupt you at that point.
Mrs. Richards. Yes, sir.
!Mr. Tam5nner. Who was this person that you say was connected
with Soviet Russia Today, who suggested that you attend Communist
Party meetings?
Mrs. Richards. His name, I believe, was Herbert Goldfrank.
Mr. Taat.nner. Can you give us any further identification of the
person, as to what he did and
Mrs. Richards. Well, his job at that time was, as I say. with Soviet
Russia Today. I met him through a friend who was not at all inter-
ested in politics, but who had been acquainted with him or had become
acquainted with him at Time. Inc., where I think Mr. Goldfrank was
trying to raise money among certain contacts at Time. Inc. They had
a fund drive on at the time, and, as I say, the friend, I am sure, had
no political interest in him at all. He brought him home to a cocktail
party or something of that sort, and that is how I became acquainted
with him.
I am afraid I cannot give any further identification, because the
only other time I saw him was in the Avenue C branch.
Mr. Tavenner. I may say, Mr. Chairman, that the individual men-
tioned was further mentioned in the hearings involving Leon
Josephson.
Mr. Walter, Do you know where INIr. Goldfrank is today?
Mrs. Richards. No. I have had no contact with him at all after
1988. He was extremely active at that time, but I have had no contact
with him since at all.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, we think we know in what business
he is now engaged, but possibly I should not say anything further
M'ithout additional checking.
Mr. Walter. Certainly.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, as a result of your conference with him you
attended this Communist Party meeting?
Mrs. Richards. That is correct. I didn't join then, I know. Tlie
only way I can pin down the time when I joined was that it must
have been winter, because there was snow on the ground that night.
I remember walking a tremendous distance to a subway. Avenue C
was very difficult to reach, and I was walking through snow, so it
niust have been early in that winter of 1937 when I joined the Com-
munist Party.
I attended meetings at Avenue C at this neighborhood branch for a
little more than a year. It was a very big neighborhood branch which
had mostly open meetings, which people from the neighborhood
attended.
I couldn't estimate the membership. It must have been as much
as 100. They were a very large branch. They were very large
meetings.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 417
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what was the primary objective or interest
of this group of the Communist Party ?
Mrs, Richards. This particular group involved itself in neighbor-
hood questions. There was a canvassing of the neighborhood, for
instance, to inform people of their rights under I believe it is the
old-age-tenement law. There was a big drive by the party, in other
words, the party tried to make itself a kind of service organization to
tlie neighborhood in order, of course, to gain sympathy and members.
Then there was a tremendous open air protest meeting held at the
site of a tenement fire. There was a tenement fire where several people
had been killed and they held a marathon open air protest meeting.
I remember that.
In addition to that, there was the collection of money for Spain, and
large educational forums of various kinds, the selling of the Daily
and Sunday Worker. And of course any particular political drives
of the party at the time, the collecting of signatures on petitions and
financial drives for the support of the party itself took place.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, to what extent were you active in those inter-
ests or objectives of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Richards. Well, I never held any office in that branch, except
once or twice I think I was in charge of selling literature for the
evening. I attended many of the meetings, the open-air ones, and then
I remember going once in a white uniform or supposedly a white
uniform to look like a nurse to collect money for Spain in front of a
theater.
I loaned my car for a parade once. That is about all. I attended
meetings. As a matter of fact, at that period and probably for months
of my party life, I was something which I think causes a great deal of
trouble in the world ; I was a political dilettante. I am not saying this
with any pride or frivolity. I think you can become engaged in
activities which you would not have thought about — which you did
not think about thoroughly and which you were not willing to really
face the consequences of, because of immaturity, but, nevertheless, that
causes a great deal of trouble in the world and that period, particu-
larly, I was a dilettante. A great deal of it was for fun. It gave
me a certain sense of excitement and importance, and I think that a
great many people who join the Communist Party, while they join
on the basis of such issues as fascism and unemployment, really do it
for other reasons.
This does not explain why 98 percent of the people who are sincerely
concerned about these questions do not feel the need to become a Com-
munist. I think I became a Communist because I was young and was
irresponsible and because I didn't want to think for myself. It was
extremely comforting to have all the answers in a series of books and I
would never have to think again. I think that is why a lot of people
will continue to cling to Communist thinking, even when the facts
don't fit, because it is a little painful to take responsibility finally for
your own thinking and for your own mistakes.
Mr. Tavenner. But in that connection do you not feel that young
people in particular, if information is furnished them and made avail-
able to them as to the seriousness of the final consequences of supporting
an international conspiracy, that they might be led out of the Com-
munist Party instead of finally being driven out of it ?
418 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mrs. EiCHARDs. Yes, sir, I do think so. And I think if we give
them — I think if there is a really aggressive campaign on the positive
values of a democracy, that some of the satisfactions which young
people find in the Connnunist Partv they can find in normal democratic
life.
Mr. Tavenner. You would emphasize then the great importance of
an educational campaign?
Mrs. Richards. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Phase of the problem.
Mrs. Kichards. I certainly would, sir.
Mr. Mom^DER. Mr, Chairman, may I ask a question ?
Mr. Jacksox. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. How old were you at the time you joined the Com-
munist Party?
]Mrs. Richards. I Avas 20. Now, when I say I was immature — some
people are immature at 20 — I happened to be very slow at growing
up, and I am talking about my judgment through the years.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us at this time who were those who were
principally responsible for leadership in that group of the Communist
Party, of which you were a member, between 1937 and 1938 ?
Mrs. Richards. Mr. Tavenner, I can give you some names from that
period but I am not at all certain how valuable they will be, since from
that branch we had party names, and my party name, for instance, was
Silvia Peters.
Herbert Goldfrank's party name at that time was Herbert Davis.
Now, he was the only ])erson I knew socially at all outside of the branch
meetings, and so I didn't have occasion to know them or to know
whetlier their names were real or Avere assumed for that branch.
There was a man named Ed Brandy. I don't know how it was
spelled. That is how it was pronounced.
There was a man, an elderly man named Torg. I suppose that is
sjDelled T-o-r-g.
There was a man named Becker, I remember.
These people were in some ways in the leadership.
Now, Ed Brandy, for instance, taught the beginner's class to which
I went.
There was a woman named Greenberg, and then there was a man
1 knew only as Comrade Lev. That was evidently an abbreviation of
his fii'st name. I understood he was a publisher.
Most of the ])eople were from that neighborhood, although there
Avere a few like myself who came from another neighborhood, Avho
were middle-class or professional people.
Mr. Tavexxer. Do you know whether or not individuals Avere re-
cruited from that cell of the Communist Party into the specialized
AA'ork of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Richards. I have no personal knoAvledge of that. I had a feel-
ing that I myself AA-as there in order to be, so to speak, educated as a
j)roletarian. That Avas completely outside any of my preA'ious experi-
ence. I had no real basis for contact with the people in that neighbor-
hood, I mean b}- origin, by AA^ork. In every way they were different
from myself.
Mr. Taaenner. Hoaa^ long did that continue, that is, your
association?
I
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 419
Mrs. Richards. My association through the Avenue C branch con-
tinued until shortly after my marriage. I was married in, I think
November of 1938. Shortlv after that I knew that I was going to have
a child and we were going to move to the country, and so as I say,
1 applied for a leave of absence and was granted a leave of absence.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you return to active work in the party?
Mrs. Richards. Well, during the period of leave of absence — I am
]\ot sure if it was absolutely regular or not, but I was contacted — we
moved to Rockland County, N. Y., Palisades. It is also known as
JSneeden's Landing. It is a little town on the Hudson about 12 miles
above the George Washington Bridge, and sometime during that,
occasionally during that period I was contacted by the section organ-
izer for the payment of dues and probably for the collection of money.
I remember some visits from 2 or 3 different section organizers dur-
ing that time. The section, as I understood, was composed of three
counties, Westchester, Rockland, and another county, and the section
organizer, part of his duties, his or her duties, would be to ride around
and contact people who were in sort of far-flung districts.
Then sometime after October 1941, I began to go to some of the
neighborhood, the countywide neighborhood meetings in Rockland
County.
I was also engaged at that time in a tremendous amount of war
activities. I was in civil defense, and an airplane watcher, and I
worked for Russian War Relief, British War Relief, and I also was
active in the American Labor Party, all of which was in a sense con-
sidered by me to be party work, since the position of the party at that
time was entirely "win the war" emphasis.
Mr. Tavexner. Now, during the period when you were a member
of this first group in New York City — ■ —
Mrs. Richards. Yes.
Mr, Tavenner. Was your group addressed at any time by high
functionaries from the party, and if so, by whom ?
Mrs. Richards. Yes, it was from time to time. I can remember three
of them — Mother Bloor addressed a meeting, and Israel Amter, and
Roy Hudson. Those are the three I remember, but there were other
people from the national headquarters who did address meetings there.
Mv. Ta\t3Nner. Do you recall now what functions those persons had
in the Communist Party?
Mrs. Richards. I don't know whether they were at that time mem-
bers of the national committee. I would be guessing, I am afraid. I
know that they were all from the national headquarters of the party.
Mr, Tavenner. Now, when did you come to California i
Mrs .Richards. I came to California in October of 1943. However,
I did not contact the party out here until the following April. I
had a certain amount of personal trouble, and then after my husband
and 1 separated I again contacted the Communist Party in Santa
Monica.
Mr, Tavenner. How did you make that contact ?
Mrs. Richards. I have been trying to remember that. I remember
before I left Rockland County taking a trip across into Westchester to
the home of the section organizer, who was at that time a woman. I
am very sorry but I can't remember her name. I think that I informed
her that I was coming to California. However, I do not remember
a formal transfer, and I don't remember turning in a formal transfer.
420 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
I was contacted out here by a man by the name of Vidaver, Matt
Vidaver.
Afr. Tavknxkr. Can you further identify liim? Can vou fj^ixe fur-
ther identification or information regarding him?
INIrs. Richards. At that time, I don't know what his work was. I
had an impression he was working in a cement factory or something
of that sort, but lie was — 1 also had the impression that he was, whether
pn\(\ or not, a party functionary.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you learn that he was the Communist Party
organizer for the Bay City Club of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Richards. It was my impression he was an official or a func-
tionary of the group that met at Ocean Park.
Another thing T cannot remember is its being called the Bay City
Club, although I understand that that is what it was called. In my
memory it was merely the club which met in Ocean Park.
Mr. Tavexxer. You were telling us of this individual meeting you.
Mrs. Richards. Yes. He contacted me. The major activity of
that club at that time was the establishment of a bookstore in Santa
Monica called the Thomas Jefferson Book Store. I went to some meet-
ings with Matt Vidaver in Ocean Park. The branch met in a rented
hall near the amusement pier. I told them that I had very little time.
I remember informing Matt and others that I had very little time.
I had just begun to write for the radio. I was very lousj' at it, it was
painful, and I also had the full-time care of two very young boys, and a
7-bedroom house, and it was wartime and there was no help, even if 1
could have afforded it.
So I explained all this, and they said that the major activity was in
relation to the bookstore, the attendance at meetings was not the most
important thing, and that — this was during the period when the party
was called the Communist Political Association, and Browder had
expounded the theory that the party did not need to have the regular
meetings and the political activity that it had in the past, that it
could operate openly in an educational capacity, that we were going
to have a peaceful evolution from capitalism to socialism. And as
a result I didn't attend meetings regularly during that period.
However, having this large house, which was, I am sure, the largest
house in the branch, my house was used for numerous parties and for,
possibly, other activities. This I am not certain about. But it was
certainly used for parties to raise money for the bookshop.
Mr. Jacksox'. What was the address of your house?
Mrs. Richards. C)07 Ocean Front. It was a very fancy house, in-
deed, and one I could ill afford. That is why I became a writer. I
had to write day and night to pay the rent.
Mr. Walter. You said they said that it wasn't imj^ortant to attend
meetings. Who do you mean by "they" ?
Mrs. Richards. I meant the branch executives. I applied to the
branch executive. I know Matt Vidaver was an executive of that
branch. It was my impression a man named Bill Young was also a
member. Possibly his wife Molly was, although I am not certain,
although I knew tliem both in this group. They are two of the people
that I remember in the group, aiul I know that Bill Young was, un-
doubtedly was an executive on that group.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 421
Mv. Tavenner. Now will you tell the committee just how these
functions were arrangjed and who suggested them, the benefit parties
for various Communist Party projects?
Mrs. Richards. The first one, there was a discussion during the
branch meeting, they asked who had a house, and I raised my hand.
And then a committee was appointed to run the party. So that most
of the arrangements were out of my hands.
They would have raffles and sell drinks and charge admission.
Because it was a beach house, I think some of them were daytime
parties and people went swimming. That I am extremely foggy
about. As I say, I was writing. That year I wrote — I looked it up
the other clay — I wrote 62 half-hour radio scripts which is something
like 30 full-length movies. It was a tremendous volume of work.
So I wasn't present when all the arrangements were made. Some-
times I was upstairs typing, people were downstairs. I remember
once raising a beef about them not cleaning up when they left, or
something, and they appointed a cleanup committee for the next one.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you used the expression that you were ad-
vised, in effect, that it wasn't so important to attend meetings; that
the principal emphasis was upon the work at the bookshop and
educational.
Mrs. Richards. This was the period which preceded the Duclos
letter, and because of this, Browder was, as a matter of fact, accused of
destroying the apparatus of the party. In a sense he did. I think it is
very interesting that the party felt itself incapable of functioning on
the kind of broad base that Browder envisioned. For whatever reasons
he envisioned it, I am not going into Mr, Browder's motives. It is true
that during the BrowTler period the party Americanized itself, it
adapted itself to the peculiar and unique aspects of the American scene
much more than it had before or since.
And the Duclos letter said that this policy was destroying the ap-
paratus of the party. It is perfectly true that people did not attend
meetings as regularly when they didn't have to, as they did later.
Mr. Tavenner. You mentioned the receipt of the Duclos letter.
Mrs. Richards. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the effect of the receipt of the Duclos let-
ter in the group of the Communist Party to which you were as-
signed ?
Mrs. Richards. I went to that meeting. I was called by Matt
Vidaver who said it was an extremely important required meeting.
There was a discussion. Rather, no discussion, a reading of the di-
rectives is really what it amounted to from New York on the question
of Earl Browder. There was an attempt at a discussion.
I can remember several elderly people who were bewildered and
confused by the fact that Mr. Browder was suddenly in the dog-
house, and then they were beaten down and there was a unanimous
vote by that branch to expel Browder from the party. And which,
of course, must have happened unanimously in every branch through-
out the United States.
jMr. 'J'avenner. 'VVliy do you say it happened unanimously through-
out the United States? Take your own group, for instance, was that
the unanimous feeling of the members of your group, that all that
Browder had done should be repudiated ?
31747— 53— pt. 1 11
422 COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mrs. Richards. Well, there were a few articulate people who pre-
sented the reasons. The objections were, a few objections were, raised.
As I can remember, they were treated, the objections, with withering
contempt. An elderly man was told he was not really — he didn't
really understand the science of Marxism, Leninism, that it was only
lack of political education which really was raising objections. That,
after all, the leadership of the party in New York and the leadership
of the party throughout the world were agreed to it, so that they
acquired a unanimous vote.
I don't know what feelings — I know — what the individual feelings
were. I know this was the moment, the first moment when I — my
own feelings began drastically to cool, although it took some time
for me to move all the way out.
It was around the question of the new type of party versus the
party of Browder that I began to have my first doubts in relation
to the organization, my first serious doubts,
Mr. Tavenner. Who were those w^ho took the leadership and the
sponsorship of the Duclos letter ?
Mrs. Richards. I cannot remember who presented it that evening.
I know that people I have mentioned were active, but then there were
some other younger people. There was an organization, a girl who
acted as educational secretary named Dorothy Olson, and her hus-
band, Ben Olson, was fairly articulate in the group.
I remember mostly these few younger people because they were the
ones who contacted me outside party activities. They would come
down to use the beach and they were the ones whom I saw socially,
to a certain extent.
There was another girl I remember, named Celia Wilby. I don't
know whether that is "ey" or "y." She at that time, I believe, was
working at the Douglas plant.
Mr. Tavenner. Working at what plant ?
Mrs. Richards. At the Douglas plant.
Mr. Clardt. Counsel, might I suggest— we know what the Duclos
letter is and all about it, but a brief word at this time might be fitting,
I think, so everyone would understand it.
INfr. Tavenner. Yes ; I think that is a good suggestion.
What did you understand by the Duclos letter?
Mrs. Richards. The Duclos letter, as I understood it — and I am far
from being a profound political thinker — was a letter written by a
French Communist named Duclos, which appeared, I believe, first in
L'Humanite, or one of the other French Communist publications, dis-
cussing the American Communist Party and Browder's theory of the
peaceful evolution of capitalism to socialism.
This letter was the signal for a concerted attack on Browder and
this country. I have a feeling it was the signal for a change of policy
of the international Communist movement following the war. In a
sense it was a signal that the honeymoon was over.
INIr. Ta\ KxxEH. I may add, by the testimony of a high former Com-
munist Party functionary, upon the receipt of that letter that indi-
vidual stated that he considered it a declaration of war by the Soviet
I"'^nion against the United Slates. That the only element of uncer-
tainty was the time at which it would occur.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 423
Mrs. Kk'jiards. AVell, I believe it certainly was a declaration that
the alliance was ended, that the peaceful alliance that went on during
the war was over. They felt that now, far from working with the
United States, that their interests were diametrically opposed to those
of the United States.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the Duclos letter considered a directive from
the Connnunist Party International to the Communist Party in the
United States?
Mrs. Richards. It was treated as such. It is very hard, w^hen you
are in the lower echelons, to know how much weight to give the various
directives that come. But one thing is certain, that the debate was
very short, that the change was very rapid. Within a matter of weeks
the Connnunist Party had changed its entire face in relation to policy
in this country.
Mr. Jackson. Actually, following the Duclos letter and denuncia-
tion of Browder, the party again went underground, as distinguished
from the Communist Political Association?
Mrs. Richards. During the next year there was a tremendous re-
organization. The groups were made smaller. I suppose that was
for security reasons. The word "underground" I never heard. I
did hear at times connnents of preparations to go underground.
Mr. Jackson. The meetings were not advertised in the press?
]Mrs. Richards. They were no longer open meetings. They tight-
ened it up tremendously in relation to the recruiting in the next group
I belonged to, which I w^ill tell you about later, and I belonged to only
briefly ; you could no longer bring people to the meeting. The names
of possible recruits were presented to the meeting and discussed
thoroughly. If there were any real security objections, the person
could not be recruited.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, wouldn't it be well to fix the approxi-
mate date of that Duclos letter? I think it was April or May 1945,
]Mrs. Richards. It was in the spring of 1945. I am not certain of
the date.
Mr. Tavenner. In May of 1945.
Mr. Clardy, It served as a public declaration of policy that short-
circuited the necessity of going through channels. It notified all
Communist Party members that because of the position that Duclos
occupied, what the line was to be from there on out, didn't it ?
Mrs. Richards. That is right. I suppose there was a chance that
a revolt — I meant a split — could have occurred, a serious split in the
Communist Party. There was a gamble there because, as a matter of
fact, Browder enjoyed brief personal popularity.
I know — at least, I have heard — I don't know anybody that left
because of Browder. I am certain that some members of the party
and probably some very, very able members left with him.
Mr. Walter, That is why their groups were smaller. You said
they were made smaller. They were made smaller because of resent-
ment,
Mrs, Richards, Yes; I am certain a great number of people left
at this time. Whether right or wrong, Browder did adapt himself
to the American scene. Whether right or wrong in his theories, which
is not really the question, or what his basic intentions were, he cer-
tainly presented the Communist position differently than anybody else
had.
424 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Ml". Walter. And he had a personal following.
Mrs. Richards. A large personal following.
]\rr. Clardy. Doesn't that letter give about the best illustration of
the iron discipline that prevailed in the Communist apparatus?
Mrs. Richards. Yes. The question of discipline is very interesting
to me. It has something to do with why I joined the party.
I tliink a large number of people are in the party because they don't
want to tlriuk for themselves. They like the security for only the
riglit answer and the unquestioned right answer, and therefore they
don't dare to question these directives, because they are flung out in
the cold world, where they have to figure out the answers themselves.
Mr. Clardy. Their whole foundation is gone, in other words?
Mrs. Richards. It is a question of personal inside security with
many, many people.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, who was the treasurer of this group ?
Mrs. Richards. I cannot remember, sir. I remember paying dues,
but there is no face connected with it. I did pay dues at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of the persons who were
members of this group with you, which you have described?
Mrs. Richards. This Ocean Park group?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mrs. Richards. I have given you about all the people that I can
remember in the group. There were many other people, but because
I had no social life with them and because I was so busy I — I believe
I have given you all I know. Celia Wilby and Dorothy Olson, Bill
and Molly Young and Matt Vidaver.
Now, all of these I remember because they seemed to be active in
these parties that were given at my house, and as I say, there may
have been other activities at the house. My memory is very incom-
plete.
Mr. Ta\t>nner. You told us a moment ago you joined or were
assigned to still another group of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Richards. Yes. It was shortly after the Duclos letter.
Shortly after the Duclos letter there was a plan to fonn a separate
radio branch.
Now, this is not radio writers, but anybody working in radio.
Mr. Tams^nner. That means technicians, as well as writers?
Mrs. Richards. Yes. Anvbodv working in the field of radio. The
reason for forming the branch, I believe, was to recniit. Actually,
thero were very few people in radio at that time who were members
of the (\)nnnunist Party. I think they later did successfully recruit
a considerable number of ])eople.
I was told to call, I believe told by Matt, or else — I don't know
whether I made the call or the call was made to me, but the first
contact was Sam Moore, a radio writer.
He asked me to meet with him to discuss organizing a radio branch.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me interrupt you there a moment.
Mrs. Richards. Yes.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. In your discussion of this matter with Sam Moore,
did you learn the underlying purpose of the Communist Party in
endeavoring to organize a cell within radio?
Mrs. Richards. The only purpose I can remember was the purpose
of recruiting Communist Party members.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 425
Now, when you jret to whether I understood the purpose of the
Communist Party, I was interested in hearing some of the other
witnesses here on this question, because I knew the purposes of the
Communist Party, in one way, from the beginning. I don't see how
anyone can go on to beginners' class of the Communist Party without
understanding it has an eventual aim as well as the immediate goal,
and the eventual aim is to seize power for the proletariat and to
destroy the institutions of the capital estate. I learned that in lesson 2
of my beginning class in Marxism.
However, it is quite true that this does not loom as a very impor-
tant point in your mind when you are functioning as a Communist.
Then you are working for immediate aims and you don't really think
that tiie revolution is just around the corner, not if you live in the
United States ; there aren't enough signs of it.
Also, you are told, in relation to force and violence, that the
violence, if it comes, will be violence forced upon the people by the
capitalists who will resent the will of the majority, who will fight
savagely to hang onto the institution of capitalism. If you want
not to think, as I wanted not to think, you buy this, until one day
you take a long look at liow the will of the people operates in Czecho-
slovakia or in other countries, and you find out tliat the majority
will of the people has nothing to do with it. Actually, it is a question
of seizing power for the sake of seizing power. So, as I say, I knew
the eventual aims of the Communist Party, but I didn't consider
them in a very serious way. This, again, is the question of being a
dilettante. I think if Hitler had been a good painter he wouldn't
have been an amateur politician.
JNIr. Tavenner. That brings us back again to the importance of
the educational phase of this whole problem, doesn't it?
Mrs. KicHARDs. That is true, sir.
Mr. Taa-enner. Now, I interrupted you as you were stating that
you had a conference with INIr. Sam Moore about the advisability
of organizing a group of the Communist Party within radio.
Mrs. Richards. That is correct. Now, we had several organiza-
tional meetings^ At first I think Sam and I met alone at his house.
-Later a girl named Pauline Hopkins became, in a sense, the secre-
tary of the group. And gradually people were added to this group.
Either they were transferred in from other groups, as I had been, or
perhaps in some cases they were recruited. But at the beginning
there were the three of us.
We met, because I had to come clear in from Santa JNIonica and was
very busy, Sunday mornings for a time at Sam's, and later at the
house of Pauline Hopkins. I remember Pauline Hopkins' husband,
Owen Vinson. However, I do not remember him actually in a meet-
ing. He was baby-sitting downstairs while we met upstairs.
I remember in that group an actress named Lynn Whitney.
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder left the hearing room at this
point, 4: 32 p. m.)
A man named Hy Alexander, I remember, and a girl named — a
Avoman — I believe she was an actress named Georgia Backus. I also
remember other people, but not names.
I remember a radio engineer, who attended wliile I was in the group,
perhaps two or three meetings. Oh, yes, there was a man named
31747— 53— pt. 1 12
426 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Charley Glenn. There were two girl writers, a team. I think they
wrote
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not this person, Charley
Glenn, acquired another occupation at another time?
Mrs. Richards. As a matter of fact, I have no idea — at that time
T don't think his occupation was radio then. I have a feeling — I
can't place him in radio at all. If he was in radio I personally don't
know what he did. He was married to some woman, I understand,
who was a functionary of the party. But that is a name I can't re-
member, either.
As I say, there were two girl writers whom I cannot remember by
name, except one, and the nrst name was Hope. There were some
other people who attended, I remember. I remember an actor that
attended. I don't know his name. But I have never seen him since;
and another radio actress whom I have never seen again.^
But I was actually in the group a relatively short time, because
just about the time I started in I started to work in motion pictures
and became a screen writer and not a radio writer, so very shortly, I
would say in a matter of 2 or 3 months, I was transferred into a
screen writing branch, rather than a radio branch.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you a member of the screen writers'
branch of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Richards. I can't tell you exactly how long. The party was
by this time in turmoil, and especially the Hollywood section of the
party, over the great cultural controversy. While I was still in the
radio branch there were endless, endless discussions as to the role of
the writer in society, and the party's approach to culture.
I remember that Sam Moore and I drew up what we called a mi-
nority approach, defending the right of the writer to write, reflecting
life as he saw it, rather than to use his writing as a weapon.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me stop you there a moment.
Mrs. Richards. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You say a great deal of discussion occurred within
the Communist Party with regard to the role of the writer.
Mrs. Richards. Yes. And in relation to culture generally, the arts
generally.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, what do you mean "in regard to culture and
the arts" ? Just what was the discussion ?
Mrs. Richards. The relation to what function a writer or artist,
what function his art should perform. Or for what he should use
his art. In other words, the position which finally won — and I am
sure this was also, in a sense, part of the international picture, if you
see what happened to artists in the Soviet Union, the position which
won is that the function of the artist is to use his art as a weapon for
progress. If you put it in their words, for the victory of socialism.
The minority, who lost, contended that the function of an artist
is to reflect the life around him as he sees it, to shape it into a form
and to tell truths with his art, the truths that he feels as an individual
and not in relation to some past
Mr. Tavenner. To translate that into practical terms, if that were
the radio group, to pledge that that group then would be attempting
'Subsequently the witness added the following: "I omitted the name of Karen Kinsel,
who at the time was not married, but who, I believed, subsequently married Abe Burrows.
I am unable to give further identification as to her occupation at the time I Icnew her."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 427
to mold its product in the form that would best suit the Communist
Party.
Mrs. Richards. That would mean that I always felt, and Sam
Moore and I always felt that the entire discussion was extremely
abstract, in regard to radio. I believe very few radio writers are
artists.
I want to say on the question of trying to slant things for Com-
munist propaganda, it seems to me inevitable, if you were a Commun-
ist and you believed what you were doing, that will reflect itself in
your work.
However, in my personal experience it was impossible to write
anything for commercial radio or for motion pictures — this is my
personal experience — which did not agree with what was then the
popularly held ideas of the times.
I was working, for instance, on Cavalcade of America, under the
sponsorship of the Du Pont Corp. Believe me, not one word went
•out over the air nor did I try, because I was interested in writing good
radio shows, or as good as I knew how — not one word could go out
which tlie advertising — the man in charge of advertising for the Du
Pont Corp. did not agree witli in his heart.
Of course, in that period there were many — the Communist Party
was in agreement with a lot more people. I mean it was using the
issues on which the people Avere agreed much more than the issues
it uses today. But I think it is terribly important to separate the
issues from the Communist Party.
In other words, that if a man — if the Communist Party is anti-
Fascist, it doesn't mean that anti-Fascists are Communists. I think
this is A, B, C. I feel this very deeply. We should learn that the
Connnunist Party will, as a matter of fact, join forces with fascism
if it serves their purposes.
We know about tlie Nazi-German pact. I remember in Rockland
County when the Communist Party was joined with the America
First Committee on a platform against lend-lease — I think the
America First Committee has also been investigated by the com-
mittee— today it has been factually proven former Nazi groups are
financed behind the Iron Curtain.
I think it is extremely important to separate the issues from the
party. Wliile it may have been the aim of the Communist Party to
influence the content of radio scripts, very little could be done with
which the American people were not largely in agreement with.
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder reentered the hearing room
^t this point, 4 : 43 p. m.)
Mr. Tavenner. After you were transferred to the group of screen-
writers, who were the members of the Communist Party in that group
that you were associated with ?
Mrs. Richards. One of the members was Ed Chodorov. We met
once, I remember, at his home. And Millard Lampell and his wife,
whose name I do not remember. A man named Louis Allen and his
wife.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the occupation of Louis Allen?
Mrs. Richards. Louis Allen, I believe, was a playwright. He was
at that time active in the Actors' Lab.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the last name, please.
428 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mrs. Richards. Allen?
Mr. Tavenner. Allen.
Mrs. Richards. I don't know whether it is "en" or "an," A-1-l-e-n
or a-n. But he was a playwright and his wife was also a member —
George and Tiba Willner. He was an agent. It was a writers'
group, largely, but he was an agent.
Howard Dimsdale, Ed Rolfe, a writer, and Lee Gold, and a girl,
Tamara Hovey.
j\[r. Tavenner. How do you spell the first name?
]\Irs. Richards. I believe it is T-a-m-a-r-a. I am not sure of that.
Tammie, they called her ; it is a nickname. There were other mem-
bers in that group. These were the ones I remember.
JNIr. Tavenner. Do you recall any particular activity of that gi'oup
which would indicate its primary interest?
Mrs. Richards. If "i:)rimary interest" was writers and their prob-
lems, the cultural controversy continued to rage. I think the famous
Albert Maltz article on left-wing criticism Avas published at about
the time that I entered that group, and its retraction was published
some 2 or 3 weeks later.
I can remember mostly my last meeting with that group, and my
last meeting in the Communist Party at wdiich a discussion was led
by Louis Allen. The discussion was called the Contribution of
Writers in the War. xVnd, as he started to discuss country by country
the tremendous roles that writers had played in winning the war, it
became apparent that the only writers who had done anj^thing to win
the war were Communist writers.
As an example, the only writers he mentioned in France, in which
nearly every writer was in the underground, were Louis Aragon and
his wife, whose name I forget at the moment, a novelist.
Then in this country he mentioned Theodore Dreiser and Howard
Fast.
AVlien he got to Spain, Spain having not so many well-known
writers, he mentioned the Spanish poet Lorca, and said Lorca was
executed by the Franco forces during the Spanish Civil War, and he
said that Lorca was not a Communist when the Fascists killed him,
but he was about to become one.
So, at the end of the meeting or Avhen the discussion started, I took
rather violent exception to their discussion. I said that I thought it
was an extremely narrow api)roach to tiie question of what writers
had done to win the war ; that I thou.ght it was presumptuous to as-
sume that Lorca was about to become a Conmiunist, since there was
notliiug political in any of his writings. He was, as a matter of fact,
a lyric poet ;nid dramatist, and most of his plays are about love and
not about politics.
'Jlien I said, "And if Theodore Dreiser had died 2 years earlier,
he wouldn't have made the list."
So, this was not received very well, and I never attended a Com-
munist Party meeting after that, although I had one brief contact
with the Communist Party after that.
Mr. Tavenner. ^Y[\at was that?
Mrs. Richards. I received a call from a man named Arnold Manoff,
who wanted to know why I was not attending party meetings. I said
that I had differences with the party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 429
He said that if they were cuUural differences these were going to be
ironed out ; that this was a sectarian period.
I said that b.y now my differences were also political ; that I was no
longer a Communist and did not w^ant to be considered one.
And that was my last contact with them.
Mr. Tax'enner. Approximately when was that?
Mrs. Richards. Again I can only place it by the Maltz article, which
I believe was early in the summer of 1946, spring of 1946. And I left
soon thereafter.
Mr. TA\'EN]srER. Well, since that time have you been affiliated with,
the Communist Party?
Mrs. Richards. Not since that time; no sir.
Mr, Tavenner. Have you knowingly aided or abetted the Com-
munist Party in any of its projects since that time?
Mrs. Richards. I don't know whether — I believe I signed the peti-
tion for the 10 or for the 19 who went to Washington in 1947. I am
not certain about that. I may have.
I think you have heard over and over that leaving the party is a
gradual process. You think your way out, as you dicbi't think your
way in.
i was thinking toclaj^ of what happened to me after that particular
night. I started to read the forbidden books of Koestler, all these
wicked things. I read with great interest the controversy of Lysenko
in the Soviet Union, and I began for the first time to think what I
had been in.
The two things that stand out the most are the Lysenko — the Soviet
bulletin on musicians, somebody showed me the Soviet Embassy
bulletin after the musicians, the composers, had been disciplined, and
when I read how great composers like Shostakovich would say hu-
militating things such as, "I have the greatest respect for melody and
I will try to use more of it in the future," this did a great deal to wean
me away.
Then I read in Arthur Koestler a very interesting thing. He said,
in Darkness of Noon, "In the life of every Communist there comes a
moment when he hears screams."
The first screams I heard were outraged intellect. But I since then
have been able to see the slave-labor camps, and the 14 million killed in
China, or 11 million; the figures vary.
So, as I say, it takes a while to get out, but when you finally are out
it is a complete change.
Mr. Tavenner. I am interested in the statement that you made
about your reading the forbidden things.
Mrs. Richards. There were a great many books that were forbidden
for one reason or another to Communist Party members. Books by
Trotsky ites, books by enemies of the party, books which are decadent,
such as Andreev, Proust. I don't suppose a person would be expelled
from the party for reading Proust, but these people are attacked as
decadent.
Magazines like the Partisan Review, which is a fine literai'y maga-
zine; it is considered a Trotskyite publication.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, there is a form of book censorship
in the Coimnunist Party?
430 COjVJGVIUNIST activities in the LOS ANGELES AREA
Mrs. Richards. Yes. As a matter of fact, on the subject of Trotsky-
ism, friendship with a Trotskyite was ground for expulsion through-
out my membership in the party.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time gone to a Government agency
and informed them of your knowledge of the Communist Party
activities?
Mrs. Richards. Yes, sir; I did. Shortly after the beginning of
the Korean war I felt that I wanted to clarify my position ; that I
did not want to be identified with the death of U. N. soldiers in Korea,
or to even share the responsibility in a negative sense; so I went to
the Federal Bureau of Investigation and made a statement. It was
about 2 w^eeks after the beginning of the Korean war.
Mr. Tavenner. And I believe at quite an early date you spoke
with investigators of this committee, or one of them?
Mrs. Richards. I believe nearly 3 years ago I met Mr. Wheeler
for the first time.
Mr. Tavenner. How long ago?
Mrs. Richards. At the very beginning of the hearings, I think
that was nearly 3 years ago if my memory is correct, or 21/2 anyway.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee whether or not in your
opinion there has been any change in attitude on the part of the public,
and possibly the employers in this area, with regard to the question
of communism within the entertainment field?
Mrs. Richards. I think there has been a very distinct change in the
motion-picture industry. I can't talk about the public. We live in
sort of little tracks out here. We go to the studio and we go home;
that's about all. But at the beginning of this investigation I think
there was a tremendous amount of confusion in Hollywood with rela-
tion to them.
There is one thing that has cleared up in particular that I feel
very good about. One of the things which deters people from making
a public announcement of their change in relation to communism, even
if they have left the party is that in addition to earning the hatred
and contempt of their former friends and associates, they are shunned
by a large number of other people who think that once a Communist
always a Communist.
Now, in the motion-picture industry, while it is very sensitive to
public opinion, has in this regard done this — and it is a very coura-
geous thing — and that is they have made it possible for people to
announce this change of position without stigma or without being
penalized.
I think this is due to a number of factors. That the committee
itself, the jirocedures of the committee, in that it has heard evidence
and not wdld hearsay and gossip, has been very reassuring to the
industry.
I think there are certain individuals in the industry — some of the
first cooperative witnesses had a very rough time. One is a close
friend of mine, and I know he had a rough time. But because of cer-
tain individuals that I don't knoAv — I understand Mr. Roy Brewer has
worked very hard to get the industry to recognize this policy toward
people who come before the committee, and as a result, generally speak-
ing, insofar as my knowledge is concerned, the industry is extremely
friendly to people who come here and cooperate with the committee.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 431
Of course, another tiling which has changed the feeling in town a
great deal are the recent Prague trials and the use of anti-Semitism
which is involved, and the use of this anti-Semitism for political
purposes.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mrs. Eichards, may I, on behalf of the committee,
thank you for your appearance here today and assure you that we
are very happy to have the sum of your testimony added to that
already received by the committee.
Your intelligence and your understanding of the problems which
grow out of your ex^Derience are much needed by the forces which are
combating human slavery throughout the world today. Your con-
tribution is unique in this fight and will continue to be unique because
of the fact that you can draw upon your personal knowledge of these
things.
I am sure that I express the opinion of all the committee members
and of the staff in wishing you well and in thanking you very much
for your kind cooperation.
Mrs. Richards. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Jackson. You are excused.
The committee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow.
(Whereupon, at 5 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 10 a. m.,
Thursday, March 26, 1953.)
INDEX
Individuals
Page
Alexander, Hj' 425
Allen. Louis 427, 428
Amter, Israel 419
Anderson, Betty 311
Aragon, Louis 428
Aruo. Peter 356
Arren 296
Backus, Georgia 425
Baker, Phil 356
Bargeman, Bertha (Mrs. Marvin Bargeman) 352
Bargeman, Marvin 352
Barzman, Sol 339-341
Bassman, George 269, 311,349
Beck, George 395
Becker 418
Bela, Nick 349
Belcher, Frank B 324
Bennett, Connie Lee 350
Bennett, Seymour 350
Benoff, Nathan Max 350,355-361 (testimony)
Benny, Jack 356
Berkeley, Martin 269-271, 289, 293, 311, 313, 363, 364, 366
Bessie, Alvah 348
Biberman, Edward 311, 321-323, 349
Biberman, Herbert 275, 307, 308, 311, 364, 366
Blankfort, Henry 269, 349
Blaukfort, Laurie 349
Bloor, Mother 419
Blowitz, William ,349
Bolger, Ray 357
Boretz. Allen 348
Bradbury, Mary 322, 324
Brandy, Ed 418
Brewer. Roy 430
Brice. Fanny 357
Bridges 325
Bright, John 311, 348
Brinkarnt, Arthur (Art) 3r?0, 351
Browder. Earl 355, 420-423
Buchman, Harold 348, 351
Buchman, Sidney 351, 362-366, 368
Burns, Georgia , 301
Burns, Jessie 275
Burrows, Abe 426
Burton, Val 3.50
Butler, Hugo 349
Cantor, Eddie 356, 357
Carnovsky, Morris 288, 289
Casey, Jim 384, 385
Cthodorov, Edward 269, 289, 427
Clark, Maurice 350
Cohn, Morris E 319-326, 361-370
iCole, Lester 343, 348, 349
433
434 INDEX
Page
Collins, Richard (Dick) 343,348,359
Comingore, Dorothy 350
Crawford, Joan 414
Curtiss, Paul 348
Cyril 274
Dare, Danny 2G8-292 (testimony) 297,364
Davis, Herbert (alias for Herbert Goldfrank) 418
Davis, Joan 357
Dimitrov 345
Dimsdale, Howard 349, 428
Dmytryk, Edward 363-3G6
Douglas, Helen Gahagan 393
Dreiser, Theodore 428
Duclos, Jacques 334, 354, 355, 422^24
D'Usseau, Arnaud 348
Eastman. Philip Dey 319-326 (testimony)
Eliscu. Edward 269, 273, 288, 348
Endfield, Cy 348
Endore, Guy 269, 348
Esterman, William B 317-319,371-380,396,398-413
Faragoh, Francis Edward (pen name, Edward Francois) 269,
361-370 (testimony)
Faragoh, Elizabeth (Mrs. Francis Faragoh) 364. 366
Fast, Howard 428
Fay, William 306
Flanagan, Hallie 303
Fleury, Mrs. Bernyce Polifka 321-323
Foreman, Carl 339-.341
Foreman, Estelle (Mrs. Carl Foreman) 339, 340
Foster 325
Franco — — 428
Francois, Edward (pen name for Francis Faragoh) 369
Frazier, Leon ^^ 328
Gang, Martin 268-292
Gardner, Ed 356, 357
Glen. Charley 426
Glickman, Kelly 289
Gold, Lee 428
Goldfrank; Goldfrank, Herbert (party name, Herbert Davis) 416,418
Goldstone, Charles 306
Goldstone, Nat 306
Gordon, Emily 329, 331
Gordon, Julian 327-336 (testimony)
Gorney, Jay 273
Grant, Morton 349
Greenberg 418
Grennard, Elliott 350
Harris, Jet 391
Hathaway, Clarence 383
Hecht, Harold 292, 293-317 (testimony)
Higgins, Jimmy 385
Hoover, President 328
Hope 426
Hopkins, Pauline 425
Hovey, Tamara 428
Huebsch, Edward 317-319 (testimony), 349, 371-380 (testimony), 396
Hudson, Roy 419
Hurst, Fannie 386, 387
James, Dan 348
Jarrico, Paul 343. 348, 359
Jerome, V. J 299-303, 387-390
Jones 403
Josephson, Leon 416
Kahn, Gordon 311, 348, 359
INDEX 435
Page
Kibbee, Roland 314
King 393
Kinsel, Karen 426
Klansky, Max 397, 401, 402
Koenig, Lester 349
Koestler, Arthur 429
Kondolf, George 303
Lampell, Millard 349, 427
Lampell, Mrs. Millard 427
Lang, David A 336-355 (testimony), 356, 357
Langerfin. Pauline 350
Lardner, Ring, Jr 348, 349, 359
Lauber, Pauline 275
Lawson, John Howard 274, 311, 340, 343, 348, 359, 364, 366
Lennart, Isobel 350
Leonard, Charles 340, 341
Lev, Comrade 418
Levitt, Al 350
Levy, Mel 311
Lewis ^ 295
Light, Louise 331
Lorca 428
Lubouiski, Milton 348
Lysenko 429
Lytton, Herbert 390, 413
Lvtton, Bart 380,381-396 (testimony)
Maltz. Albert 285, 288, 311, 359, 392, 428, 429
Manoff, Arnold 350, 428
Marshall, Daniel G 371-380
Martin, Henrietta 350
Meyers, Henry 273, 288, 849
Mindlin, Eunice 350
Moffitt, Robert A 381-396
Moore, Sam 424-427
Morgan, Stephen 337, 338
Morley 273
Murray, Ken 357
Nebenzahl, Seymour 393
North, Joseph 349
Offner, Mortimer 269, 273, 350
Olson, Ben 422
Olson, Dorothy 422, 424
Ornitz, Samuel 348, 366
Pearson, Rose 301
Peck, Trudy 301
Proust 429
Purcell, Gertrude 307, 308, 310, 311
Rantz, Louis 293, 306, 813
Rapf, Maurice 349
Reis, Meta (see c?so Meta Reis Rosenberg) 311, 312
Richards, Silvia 413-431 (testimony)
Riggs, Tommy 356
River, W. L 350
Robert, Bob 350
Roberts, Marguerite 350
Rolfe, Ed 428
Roosevelt 277-279, 281, 309, 393
Rosenberg, Meta Reis (see also Meta Reis) 311, 363, 364, o'i(>
Rossen, Robert 269, 348, 357, 361
Rosser, Lou 829
Rousseau, Louise 350
Ruthven, Madelaine 307, 811, 338, 344, 346
Salt, Waldo 349
Schlesinger, Leon 321, 323
Schneiderman, William - 349
436 INDEX
Page
Schoeii, Max 331
Sclullh('r^^ lUidd 311
Soott, Adrian 348, 364, 366
Shapiro. Victor 350
Shore, Wilma 350
Siiostakovich 429
Siewl, Sylvia 296
Silver, Max 329
Sklar, (Jeorse 263, 289, 350
Sloan, Robert 301
Sniit h, Walter 397
Solomon, Joe 347
Solomon, Lou 340, 341
Sonder^aard, Gale 311
Sprinirer, Joseph 396-413 (testimony)
Springer, Preva (Mrs. Joseph Springer) 396, 403, 408, 409
Stanford, John 350
Taffel, Bess 269, 350
Tarloff, Frank 350
Thomas, Norman 384
Torg 418
Townsend, Pauline 381
Trabusis, Paul 343
Tree, Dorothy 364, 366
Trivers, Paul 349
Truman, President 292
Trumbo, Dalton 343, 348, 359
Tuttle, Frank 275, 307, 311, 314
Tuttle, Tanya 275, 287
Uris. Michael 350, 364, 366
Vidaver, Matt 420, 421, 424
Vinson, Owen 425
Wallace, Henry 394
Wanger, Walter 414
Wexlev, John 350
White. Irving J 269, 273-277, 2S.5-287, 289, 364
Whitnev, Lvnn 425
Wilby, Celia 422, 424
Wilkie 279
Williams. Edward Bennet 293-317, 355-361
Winner. George 312-:514, 350, 428
Winner, Tiba (Mrs. George WUlner) 428
Wilson. Michael 339
WincheU. Walter 356
Winter, Ella 349
Tankwich, Judge 379
Yates, Oleta O'Connor 349
Young. Bill 420. 424
Young. :\Ionie (Mrs. BiU Young) 420, 424
Zimet, Julian . 350
Organizations
Actors' Laboratory 285, 286, 287, 288, 427
American Federation of Labor 375
America First Committee 427
American Labor Party 419
American Legion 284
Anti-Nazi League 273, 284
Army Relief 292
Bank of America 409
Bank for International Settlements 328
Bay City Club of the Communist Party 420
Berlitz School of Languages ' 329
Bernhardt-Vidor Productions 414
Big Brothers of America 292
INDEX 437
Page
British AVnr Relief j}'^
{"aliforniii Committee on Un-American Activities |-*'S7
Cambrids'e University '^-^
Camp Tenaya 396, 399, 400, 403. 404, 409
Chamber of Commerce of Los Angeles 3-!s
China War Kelief ^^
Congress of Industrial Organizations 294, 37.J
College of the City of New York 302
Colorado College -^l-'
Columbia Pictures ■ll'l
Columbia University 302
Crusade for Freedom 272, 284. 2S'>
Cub Scimt 292
Department of Justice 271
DeWitt Clinton High School 33(1
DuPont Corp 427
Federal Bureau of Investigation . 430
Fedei al District Court of Washington. D. C 318
.Federal Theater 293. 296-29.9, 301-306, 310, 310
Harvard University 328
Hollywood Canteen 292
Hollywood Communist Club 330, 332, 333
Hollywood Democratic Committee 273
Hollywood Democratic League 284
Hollvwood Democratic Party 360
Hollywood Theater Alliance 269. 273, 275, 276, 282, 284, 285, 287-289, 292
Hollywood Victory Caravan 292
Italian Embassy 385
Jewish League Against Communism 284
Juarez Division of the Communist I'arty 401
Leon Schlesinger Studios 321
Lincoln Bookstore 348
Los Angeles Bar Association 324
Mav Dav Parade 4i;i
Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer 336.337.341
Motion Picture Democratic Committee 392, 393
Nat Goldstone Ageucy_ 298, 306, 311-313
National Academy of Design 320
Navv Kelief 292. 393
Nazi-Soviet Pact 277, 308, 309, 427
New Theater League 388, 390
Northwestern University 381
Paramount Pictures I 312, 340-342, 357
Parent-Teacher Association 292
Radio Writers' Guild 392
Red Cross 292, 393
RKO 357, 391
Russian War Relief 393, 419
Screen Gents. Inc 337
Securities and Exchange Commission 403
Seventh World Congress of the Communist Party 385
Screen Writers' Guild 352, 353
Staunton Military Academy 381
Supreme Court of the United States 374, .375
The Technicolor Motion Picture Co 328
Theater Alliance 285
Theater Guild 293
Time, Inc 416
Thomas Jeffei'son Book Store 420
Twentieth Centui-y-Fox 357. 414
United States Army 293, 312-314. 321, 374
United States Navy 357, 361
USO 393
Universal 393
Universal-International 41 ±
438 INDEX
Page
University of Virginia 3S1, 383
Variety Clubs of America 292
Walt Disney Studios 321, 323
Warner Bros 357, 414
Warner Bros. Cartoons 321,323
Westminster College 381
Workers' Alliance 295, 296
Workers' School, New York 384, 385
Works Prosress Administration 295, 297, 299
World Bank 328
World's Fair Corp 415
PtTBLICATIONS
Ballyhoo 356
B'nai JS'rith Messenwr 407
Country Press 381, 392
Daily News 375
Daily Worker 294, 295, 299, 366, 375, 383, 384, 389, 407, 417
I41 Opinion 407
T/IIiunanite 422-
Los Angeles Examiner 328, 40'''
Los Angeles Herald 407
Los Angeles Times 328, 407
New Masses 349, 389
New Theater Magazine 390
Partisan Review 429
People's World 407
Soviet Russia Today 415, 416
Sunday Worker 417
Valley Jewish News 407
o
rr
Live Music Archive
Librivox Free Audio
Metropolitan Museum
Cleveland Museum of Art
Internet Arcade
Console Living Room
Books to Borrow
Open Library
TV News
Understanding 9/11