INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES
IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA-Part 2
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
MARCH 26, 27, AND 28, 1953
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
INCLUDING INDEX
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
31747 WASHINGTON : 1953
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
JUN 18 1S53
COMMITTEE ON UN-AJVIERICAN ACTIVITIES
UliriTED States House of Representatives
HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois, Chairman
BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania
DONALD L. JACKSON. California MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri
KIT CLARDY, Michigan CLYDE DOYLE, California
GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio JAMBS B. FRAZIER, Jb., Tennessee
ROBEUT L. KUNZIG. COlUUSCl
Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., Coun.^el
Louis J. Russell, Chief Investigator
Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk
Raphael I. Nixon. Direetor of Research
n
CONTENTS
March 26, 1953:
Testimony of— Page
Bart Lvtton (recalled) 440
Jody Gilbert 461
Charlotte Darling Adams_-_ 471
Simon M. Lazarus 478
March 27, 1953:
Testimony of —
LeRoy Travers Herndon, Jr 499
Richard Byrd Lewis ' 526
Abraham Alinkus 541
March 28, 1953:
Testimony of —
Edith Macia .* 558
Appearance of Charles A. Page 587
Appearance of Harry C. Steinmetz 589
Testimony of —
Bernard Lusher 591
Ben Maddow 599
Index 605
m
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79tli Congress [1946], chapter
763, 2d session, which provides:
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Repiiesentatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
17. Coniuiitee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a wliole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessaiy remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be sex-ved by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
RULES ADOPTED BY THE S3D CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1953
• ♦•••••
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con-
gress, the following standing committees:
• • • • ' • • •
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
• *•*•••
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American Activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American proi>-
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
In any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House ( or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such cliairmaii. and may be served by any iierson desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.
VI
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES AREA— PAET 2
THUBSDAY, MARCH 26, 1953
Unii'ed States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
PUBLIC HEARING
The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to ad-
journment, at 10:14 a. m., in room 518, Federal Building, Hon.
Harold H. Velde (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman), Donald L, Jackson, Kit Clard}^, Gordon H. Scherer,
Francis E. Walter, Clyde Doyle, and James B. Frazier, Jr.
Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; Louis J.
Russell, chief investigator; Thomas W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk; Raphael
I. Nixon, director of research ; and William A. Wheeler, investigator.
Mr. Velde. The committee will come to order.
Miss Reporter, let the record show that present are Mr. Jackson,
Mr. Clardy, Mr. Scherer, Mr. Walter, Mr. Doyle, Mr. Frazier, and
the chairman, Mr. Velde, a quorum of the full committee.
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Before calling the first witness, may I call to the
attention of the public a message I have received from a person by
the name of Lewis Allen.
Mr. Velde. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\'enner. During the course of the testimony of Mrs. Silvia
Richards, reference was made near the end of her testimony to a posi-
tion taken by a person by the name of Lewis Allen with reference
to writers who played an important part in the war effort.
Now, this telegram has been received from a Lewis Allen, who states
he is not the Lewis Allen referred to in that message. I think possibly
I should read the telegram.
Mr. Velde. Proceed and read the telegi^am.
Mr. Tavenner (reading) :
Dear Sib: Silvia Richards in her testimony yesterday stated that a Lewis
Allen and his wife were members of the screen writers' group in the Communist
Party. I wish to state that I am not the Lewis Allen referred to. I am a
motion-picture director, not a writer, and I have never belonged to any writers'
group or guild. This confusion came up once before and almost cost me a job
but fortunately it was corrected in time. In order to avoid a repetition of
this and in view of the wide publicity of your hearing I would be very grateful
if you would make a public statement. Thank you.
Lewis Allen.
439
440 COISIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Velde. May I make a statement regarding any confusion in
identity, that in case anyone's name is brought up here as being a
member of the Communist Party or a former member of the Commu-
nist Party, whose name is similar to that of some otlier person in a
simihir occupation, the committee would welcome a similar telegram
or similar communication, so that we might clear up the confusion
in identity. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Bart Lytton, will you return to the stand?
TESTIMONY OF BART LYTTON, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
STEVEN WEISMAN— Recalled
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lytton, are you accompanied by the same
counsel who accompanied you here yesterday ?
Mr. Lyiton. No, sir. Mr. Weisman is an associate of my counsel,
who is in court today.
Mr. Weisman. My name is Steven Weisman, 403 West 8th Street,
Los Angeles. Mr. Moffitt, who was here yesterday, is engaged in the
superior court today. I am his law partner.
Mr. Ta\T5NNer. Mr. Lytton, at the time your testimony was con-
tinued over until today, you were telling the conunittee about an
experience that j^ou had in Los Angeles.
You were advising the committee that in talking to a screen writer
the statement was made to you to the general effect, "Why don't you
come in and become one of us?"
(Representative Kit Clardy entered the hearing room at this point,
10:20 a.m.)
Mr. Tavenner. And I believe you were considering that for a per-
iod of time and the individual came back to you and made a state-
ment to the general effect that he understood that you had been ex-
pelled from the Communist Party in New York and that created a
situation which you ought to get cleared up. You stated further that
during the course of the conversation this person made reference to the
fact that if you didn't get this cleared up your name would be "Mud"
in this community.
I asked you who made that statement to you and you said Mr.
George Beck. Now, the expression that you made about the necessity
of clearing up of this matter else your name would be "Mud" in this
community has been interpreted in some sources as having constituted
a threat on the part of George Beck as a means or a weapon to compel
you to come into the party.
If that is true, I want you to state so clearly, and if it isn't true,
if that isn't the correct interpretation of your testimony, I would like
for you to clarify that.
Mr. Lytton. Well, George Beck is about as threatening as the St.
Louis BroAvns. No, sir, George Beck was not threatening me. I
didn't take it as a threat, I took it quite differently at the time and
I would again conclude today that his purpose was not to threaten
me, Mr. Tavenner. His purpose was to advise me. That was the
manner in which he approached it and that is the manner in wliich
he handled it straight through, because more than that occurred.
George's attitude at the time, and he and I are friends, and although
I haven't seen George for many, many years, his attitude seemed to
1
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 441
be "This is not good for you. This will hurt you, will hurt your
career. Your name is Mud. Why don't you do something about it?"
But, Mr. Tavenner, before I go any further in regard to this, I
would like to get a little matter off of my mind in regard to an inci-
dent that occurred on my entering the room this morning.
Mr. Walter. Before you go into that, may I get this straight in
my own mind: What he was telling you was that the fraternity
brothers were getting the best of it, isn't that it?
Mv. Lytton. Yes. May I speak on the other matter?
Mr, DoTLE. What was your answer? You nodded your head.
Mr. Lytton. Yes, sir.
When I entered the room this morning, a rather nice-looking gray-
haired young woman said,'"Shame on you." She smiled when she said
it quite pleasantly and I said, "Shame on me for what?" and she said,
"For being a stool pigeon."
I said, ''Shame on you because this is the way I feel." I feel very
sorry for such people. I am sorry for the thickness or the thickhead-
edness that makes them take the positions they take. But I think that
perhaps they ought to know that they do not intimidate people any
longer by this device. It is tired and worn out ; the vast bulk of the
American people express themselves quite differently.
There was a telephone call I got last night, or yesterday afternoon,
from San Diego, from a Mrs. Mary Kelly, whom I don't know and
who certainly was no crackpot. She was a pleasant woman, who told
me she heard my testimony yesterday. This encouraged me. There
were many other calls received.
I think it is well that these people know that by the use of terms
like "stool pigeon," "fink," and "informer," and so forth, they brand
themselves quite correctly as those involved in a conspiracy.
I was never in a conspiracy, and therefore I can never be a stool
l^igeon.
Mr. Walter. But more than that, don't they admit by the use of
such terms that they are p>arties to some sort of an unlawful con-
piracy ? /
Mr. Lytton. I would rather think so. I would reach rather the
same conclusion and inference from it.
Mr. Clardy. Did you ever hear the word "stool pigeon" used in
connection with anything other than criminal ?
Mr. Lytton. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Isn't that the normal use of that word? You call a
man a stool pigeon because he is telling the authorities of something
that has been done of an unlawful nature.
Mr. Lytton. Well, I think that the term has been used a bit more
broadly than that, Congressman. I think that sometimes it is used
in labor circles in regard to anyone who talks to even management
in certain instances.
Mr. CLiVRDY. But you generally find a red taint in connection with
the use of that word by that person ; do you not?
Mr. Lytton. Well, I didn't know that the people referred specifically
to a conspiracy. I can only say that to me it clearly is evidence of a
feeling of conspiracy.
Mr. Clardy. They certainly are not on our side.
Mr. Lytton. Let us put it that way.
442 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Taw.nner. As a result of the various experiences that you had
in Hollywood, after you arrived here, did you finally unite with the
Communist Party again?
Mr. Lytton. AVell, let me continue in regard to the last question and
this question, because we have a basic continuity there. I want to
reiterate, so there is no question about it, that George Beck didn't
threaten me. George Beck was counseling me to the best of his
knowledge and belief that this is what would happen'.
I think that Geoi'ge Beck would corroborate at any time that
he said it to me and that he advised me to handle the matter by
clearing these charges up. He pointed out at the time that if charges
like this were bandied about, that not only the members of the Com-
munist Party, but that liberals and many people who had no par-
ticular politics would hear vague and disturbing things about me,
or perhaps specific things, and that they would then consider me
anathema to their to their way of living or their principles or any-
thing else. And he felt that the waves of such a reaction could be
disastrous to my career and to my sense of well-being, because my
first response was "Oh, chuck itf I am not going to do anything
about it."
After several conversations on the matter, I had to conclude it
was important. I was angry about it, and as more came to me my
anger mounted. It was based on no facts. It was based on neither
evidence nor what proved later to be factual, so I began to set to
work with a will. I was put in contact with an Elizabeth Glenn,
1 was given to understand that she was in a membership capacity
in tlie Communist Party in Hollywood.
Mr. Tavenner. Did she have another name at that time, to your
knowledge ?
Mr. Lytton. You Imow, I may have given the wrong name there.
Is it Leech?
]Mr. Tavenner. Our information is she was known at different
times by both of those names, Glenn and Leech.
Mr. Lytton. I see. I don't recall. I know I have heard both
references, and I don't know her. I was put in contact with her by
Beck, and she reviewed the story with me. She told me that there
were a number of charges leveled against me in New York. I had
done everything, apparently, but set fire to my mother. She stated
that T had been expelled from the party, according to the best of
their knowledge, and that I had been considered as unreliable, a pro-
vocateur— a term frequently bandied about — and that I had stolen a
typewriter from the Communist Party headquarters and had pawned
same, and that I had deserted the party.
The party likes faithful lovers and many other things. I don't
even recall them all. Now, if she said that I deserted the party, I
said, "Well, this is true." But as to the typewriter incident, there
was no truth in it whatsoever. As to having been expelled, as far
as I knew there was no truth in it whatsoever, and I resented the
charges.
I asked her what I could do about it. Well, it didn't seem that
I could do very much about it. I asked her if there was such a thing
as a hearing. She said, well, they take care of it in their own way.
She said she would correspond with New York.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 443
I said, "Well, you ought to know something next week."
She said, "No, it will be longer than that."
Many months went by and I became more and more agitated, be-
cause now a process began. People previously friendly to me were
no longer friendly. I would arrange to have dinner with friends,
my wife and I, and at the last minute the dinner date would be can-
celed. I would walk into guild meetings and backs would be turned
if I went to enter the conversations, and I became very agitated at
this. It is not pleasant, and I still didn't fully understand it. I
understood the emanation of it,
I meant to say that I was not equipped to handle it at this time.
It therefore became a struggle on my part, I should say, and a very
important one, to clear these particular charges. I wasn't concerned
at that time with the issue of the Communist Party. I was con-
cerned with the fact that apparently a rumor factory and a very
competent rumor factory was at work.
One incident brought it into its sharpest focus. I had been a pro-
lific provider of material for USO camp shows. As a matter of
fact, I believe, I was told by the USO that I wrote more camp show
material than any other writer in the United States, and was com-
mended by them for that. Some of my sketches had played to as
many, I was told, as 6 million men. It seemed like an awful lot to
me. And I doubted it, but nevertheless I knew they were played to
many, many Army camps and installations throughout — where fight-
ing forces were stationed.
The USO was trying to get comedy material unslanted, and they
arranged at the Screen Writers' Guild — not the Screen Writers' Guild,
the Hollywood Writers' Mobilization — to have an evening in which
they would show the kind of material that they wanted.
They gave me what was to the Communist the kiss of death. It
shows my material as unslanted material. That evening Carole
Landis and Fay McKenzie and, Ed Lorre, who ran USO camp shows,
entertainment division, came down together with others — I don't re-
call whom — to the Hollywood-Roosevelt Hotel, and they played these
sketches.
Now, this one sketch was the forerunner of a type of sketch that
has become tiresome enough since. It was a psychiatric sketch. At
the time there hadn't been psychiatrist sketches of this character. It
was a very funny sketch, and it had played already with teams tak-
ing it out and stars requesting to take it out, even though it had
been old material by this time, they still wanted to take it out to mili-
tary installations.
The sketch was played, and most of the writers present sat on
their hands. They didn't laugh, they didn't applaud, they didn't
like it. This was rather unusual, in view of the fact that by that
time several hundred thousand American GI's had laughed their
heads off at the sketch. And these were supposed to be judges of
material.
It was brought in because it was to be the top laugh producer that
the USO had in its repertoire. They sat on their hands, and I was
deeply agitated by this. I began to feel by this time that I was
involved in a crusade. I hadn't done what was charged. The feel-
ings at that time were not political; they were personal. I wanted
to clear a name and be able to work again and work in peace.
444 COaiMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
I don't know how many months ensued. It dissolves, as you say
in motion-picture terminology. But lots of time elapsed. In the
course of this time I did everything that I knew to do to clear the
so-called charges.
Subsequently I was engaged to do a documentary film by Prince-
ton Film Center, the Kockefeller Foundation subsidizing it, in
Gloucester, Mass., on war shipbuilding. I went up there and did
the film and came back through New York.
In New York I went to Communist Party headquarters on 13th
Street, and I told them my story. I told them that there was this
story extant on the west coast, that it wasn't true, and I wanted them
to produce for me any records which indicated any truth in these
particular charges.
I also said to them, "If these charges are true, would you have a
record?"
They said, "Oh, certainly, we would. If the charges are true, be-
lieve me, we will have them."
About a half hour passed and a girl came to me who introduced
herself as an organization secretary, I believe, I don't recall. In
any event, I was taken to another floor. I waited some more.
She came back down and told me, "Not only are there no charges
against you, but somebody upstairs knew you who says you are a
mighty fine fellow." She said, "No; we have no record whatsoever,
and, therefore, there wouldn't be any truth in these charges."
I said, "Well, they seem to believe it in the West."
She said, "Well, that is pretty far away. ^Vliat do you want us
to do about it?"
I said, "For heaven's sake, let them know that these charges are
untrue and tell them to stop their rumor factory."
She said, "We will be very glad to."
I appreciated that. I came back to the coast. I got in touch
with the same people. No word from New York. More time went
on, months. Finally, apparently there was word from New York.
I don't know what circuitous routes it took, whether it came out by
carrier pigeons or how, but, in any event, apparently the word came
out at that time that I was cleared in New York and that the charges
were groundless.
This Elizabeth Leech Glenn again contacted me and told me that
I was cleared and they regTetted very much the fact that I had been
so badly treated as a result of it, she was sorry, and she sent a rather
inept public-relations officer, I might say, to see me at my home, who
explained that in revolutionary situations the innocent must die with
the guilty, it is just too bad. "We are sorry, fellow, that this hap-
pened to you. We are sorry that for a year and a half now," or a
year, whatever the time was, "we understand, it is awful," she said.
"Once up in Michigan the same thing happened to me, I was called
a renegade," she said, "a Trotskyite, and some kind of deviationist."
She said, "I lived through that, 'and I know what it is and I under-
stand," and so forth. "And it is too bad, but you mustn't have any
ill feeliiTg toward the party. You must understand it. You must be
a Bolshevik."
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the name of the emissary that came
to see you ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 445
Mr. Lytton. Her name and her face blotted out from my memory,
I think, instantly. I fomid it a particularly painful interview, I
didn't like it; I was uncomfortable and unhappy about it. I have
never seen her before or since. 1 can only state that she stated she
was from Michigan. More than that I do not know.
As a matter of fact, she didn't give me a name. I might make
that point clear, Mr. Tavenner. People are not necessarily intro-
duced to each other formally in the Communist Party, and first names
are often used. You will learn a name, but you are not necessarily
brought up to a person and someone doesn't say, "Comrade So-and-
So, meet Comrade So-and-So." It isn't done this way, at least in
this short experience that I had. So I don't know who she was.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question at this point?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. You were told during the course of this interview that
in the process of a revolution the innocent sometimes had to suffer
along with the guilty. Did that strike you as being inconsistent with
the party line as it generally operates ?
Tliis hysterical cry of smear that you hear from the Communists,
from the fellow-traveling press, this hysterical denunciation of com-
mittees of this kind, simply because in the course of the investigation
sometimes, as happened yesterday, an innocent name is mentioned,
which the committee attempts on all occasions to correct immediately,
but still this cry goes on, "Guilt b}^ association, Fascists, witchhunting,
red baiting," where, according to your statement, they accept as every-
day practice the fact that a lot of innocent people are going to get
hurt during this revolutionary period.
This seems to me to be a very glaring inconsistency in what they
say and what they practice. That is not a question. It is simply
an observation, because it made a marked impression on me. The
comrades talk out of one side of their mouth about one thing, and out
of the other about something else.
Mr. Lytton. Well, Congressman Jackson, for a long time I wanted
to say, "I dig you, Jackson," [Laughter.]
Mr. Velde. May we be in order, please.
Mr. Lytton. I would say if you are trying to pinpoint one incon-
sistency to the Communist Party, it might take us longer than your
terms in Congress to pinpoint all the inconsistencies in the Communist
Party and its line.
Mr. Jackson. The committee has been working for many years to
pinpoint a few of them. How^ever, this is an important one.
Mr. Lytton. I think so. I think it is a very important one. You
and I are of a different political stripe. I am a Democrat and you
are a Republican.
Mr. Jackson. That is the hallmark of America.
Mr. Lytton. Nonetheless, we can sit and discuss our differences, and
we have ; not you and I, but a couple of Republicans have with me,
and other Democrats.
Mr. Clardy. We haven't had any differences up to date.
Mr. Lytton. Well, me might.
Mr. Clardy. Don't work on it too hard.
Mr. Lytton. No, sir. We might, I don't know. I have no fear
446 COMlVrLTNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Walter. Take my word for it, you will have trouble with
Mr. Clardy in no time.
]\Ir. Lyiton. I have no fear that would hold me from quarreling
with this committee at au}^ point I felt a quarrel were coming. As a
matter of fact, this whole business about free speech being brooded
about, that it is a violation of free speech. For heaven's sake, what
could be more free speech? I have a microphone and cameras and a
television camera and a committee of tlie Congress of the United States
and the whole American public to talk to. What more could be free
speech ?
Mr. SciiERER. You are doing real well, too.
Mr. Lytton. If a man believed in what he was doing and felt it
wasn't shameful, he would get up and tell you what he was doing and
he would argue about it. I think the speech is free enough, as free as
could be possibly envisaged.
The more important issue, so far as my comment is concerned — I
am not making them relative — the more important thing is that the
innocent must suffer with the guilty. I learned then that was a stand-
ard concept.
I was referred to a statement made by someone I understand was
also considered a renegade, a Rosie Luckenberg, wdio wrote pamphlets
in Russia. I don't recall exactly what she said, but I was told some-
thing she said in regard to this matter. I was given Cjuotes, but I
don't necessarily recall them verbatim, quotes from Lenin and others,
that in a revolutionary situation it is necessary to have a disciplined
Bolshevik party and under this circumstance you can't be too squeam-.
ish as to what the attitude was.
I said all this was fine, but I happened to be the victim. And it
was asking a lot to ask me to be tolerant — I don't know — of 12 or 15
months of pretty rough punishment. I say it is difficult to project to
you the kind of punishment that is involved.
Mr. Walter. I think I can understand it perhaps better than any-
one, because ever since I had the privilege of selling to the United
States Congress the advisability of enacting an immigration code that
would protect the United States I have been subjected to the same
thing.
As a matter of fact, to such an extent that I often wondered about
the legitimacy of my birth. But it comes from the same source; that
is to be expected.
Mr. Lytton. Well, a fellow Pennsylvanian, I can answer you in
this fashion : No, sir, you did not have the same experience. You see,
the majority of the people you knew backed your position. The ma-
jority of the people you knew and had to work with still respected
and admired you.
But this wasn't the case in my instance, because the story became
broader and broader. And in the Screen Writers' Guild, since I had
identified myself in voting consistently for a number of years with the
leftists, even though I was not in the party, I had voted with them on
virtually every issue, and they were fighting at that time to build a
guild and they weren't political in their attitude for the guild at that
time.
I felt they were fighting to build a strong Screen Writers' Guild and
1 voted with them on issue after issue, as I recall, and I was probably
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 447
identified with them in the minds of many screen writers. They
weren't looking for my company, shall we say.
And all these leftists, the liberals, from the Eeds on through to the
liberals — not all of them, but many of them, we will say, were now
turning their backs upon me. It was more than that. It was affecting
my work and my career. You are still a Congressman. I am not
still a screenwriter.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us the result of the correction of the
Communist Party charges and the arrival of the emissary from Mrs.
Glenn?
Mr. Lytton. Yes, sir. I was asked to — I was told I would be con-
tacted further, and she hoped that I would not let this influence my
coming back into the party. The inference that I drew was that I had
better come back in now, too, because if I didn't, why, then, of course,
it would be just simply q. e. d., that I must have been guilty, in the
first place.
I was subsequently contacted — I don't remember, it wasn't very
long — and I was told to go to a meeting, my first meeting would be at
the home of Sam Moore.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you fix the approximate time of the meeting at
the home of Sam Moore ?
Mr. Lytton. It is very difficult to do. I would say it was
Mr. Tavenner. I mean just approximately.
Mr. Lytton. ApproAimately, I think it was — it is hard to fix. It
was in this period.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well. If you are unable to fix it definitely
enough to be satisfied in your own mind, why, just proceed and tell us
what happened.
Mr. Walter. Approximately is all right.
Mr. Lytton. This is why I am trying to recall it carefully. It may
have occurred in the fall of 1944 or it may have occurred early in 1945,
and it is difficult to remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what occurred when you went to that meet-
ing?
Mr. Lytton. I couldn't possibly tell you, since I didn't go to that
meeting. I was called the night before the meeting was canceled.
I said, "I see. When is the next meeting?"
"You will be called and told." That is that.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us who gave you this information ?
Mr. Lytton. No. Just someone called and said, "Is this Bart Lvt-
ton?"
"Yes."
"Bart, this is Mary," or Jane, or something like that. I don't know
the name — I mean it was just the first name that was given to me on
the telephone. And "I was told to contact you. The meeting is
canceled."
Now, I knew a Sam Moore. I hadn't been at the meeting, so I didn't
know what Sam Moore's home it was. I knew it was Sam Moore on
Rossmore. And I knew a Sam Moore, and I knew him as president of
the Radio Writers' Guild.
I saw this Sam Moore subsequently, in the next couple of weeks, and
I said, "Sam, what about that meeting at your house. Why was it
canceled?"
448 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
He said, "What do you mean, canceled ?"
I said, "Oh, it wasn't canceled?"
He said, "Oh. Oh, sure, it was. You are darned right it was,"' uikI
he turned and walked away.
I understood instantly that the meeting wasn't canceled, that he had
made a slip. It was, at' least what I took from it, and that the matter
wasn't yet — now, I know why I was troubled about the time. This
occurred prior to the visit of the younir Avonian who came in the i)revi-
ous discussion. It was in the period of clearing the ^natter up that I
had been told to report to a meeting, and this was what occurred.
Then I continued the attempts to get the matter straightened out.
And following her visit — now, I am clear about tlie times on that.
Following her visit I was then asked to go to a meeting up in the
Laurel Canyon-Crescent Heights area in what is loosely referred to
as Hollywood or West Hollywood, T am not sure.
And I think I can fix the time because the meeting that I attended
there — not the first meeting, I thiidv the second one the following week,
had presented to it a letter that was subsequently to become famous and
known as the Duclos letter. Xow, that was sometime, I think, in May
of 1945, if my memory serves me correctly. But it was in this period,
in any event. Perhaps it was a little later.
I attended the first meeting, as I stated, and nothing much tran-
spired, and I Avent to a second meeting. At the second meeting the
Duclos letter came out. Now, the Duclos letter isn't important for
me to describe, but I am sure that the committee is well aware of it
and can identify it for the purpose of my statement, and what it meant
to me that night.
The Duclos letter was — well, let us ])ut it this way : Yesterday there
was a young num here who in a ver}^ ]3rovocative and brazen fashion
walked about this room with a "Fire Velde" button. I thought that
if he were in a court of law, a bailiff would have removed him.
Mr. Walti:k. You know, one of the most disappointing things about
that button and the agitation is that Junior Roosevelt and those who
have been agitating haven't the courage to try to press for a conclu-
sion. Now, I think that is because they realize they would get all of
18 votes in the entire House of Representatives.
Mr. Lytton. That is interesting.
Mr. VrxDE. Thank you for the compliment, Mr. Walter.
I would like to say to the witness that we would a])preciate hearing
all about the Duclos letter, and I know that the television audience
would, too, but we have quite a number of witnesses who we have to
hear, so if you can confine your remarks as much as possible, the com-
mittee will appi-eciate it.
Mr. Lytton. Very quickly, the Duclos letter was read at that meet-
ing and I considered it a "Fire Browder'' letter, and argued in the
course of the meeting that that was what it meant, that the Com-
munist Party was going to fire Earl Browder.
Only 1 oi- 2 others in the room seemed to agree. Most of them
thought quite the opposite. Browder was their hero. Several girls
broke down and cried. It was quite an emotional scene.
I was told that I was a provocateur; how did I dare come into the
Communist Party and tell them that letter meant "Fire Browder."
I became quite disturbed about it, and, in any event, they fired
Browder. Let us put it that way.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 449
Two or three weeks later, or whatever the time period was, they
fired Browder. It was the ineaniiig of the letter.
I was looked upon with great suspicion, however, and I learned
that in the Comnumist Party if yon interpret the line ahead of the
interpretation that comes from npstairs, yon are a very suspect person.
Mr. Tavexner. Did that represent the beginning of your reaililia-
tion with the Communist Party?
Mr. LY'rroN. It pretty close to represented the end as well.
Mr. Tavenxek. How long did you remain in the Connnunist Party
after you came back?
Mr. Lytton. For a matter of weeks thereafter. I don't recall how
many.
Ml-. Ta^-exxer. Well, will you tell us who attended that meeting
or who the members of that group were of wdiich you were a member?
Mr. Lyttox. I didn't know— now, I only attended a couple of meet-
ings with this group. I didn't know the people in the group, and they,
incidentally, were not studio people. The only person in that group
whom I could positively identify as having been at the meeting would
be Ann Morgan.
Mr. Tavenner. Ann Morgan ?
Mr. Lytton. Yes.
Mr. Tavenxer. Did she hold a position in the Screen Writers' Guild
at that time ?
Mr. Lyttox^. I don't knoM'. I don't think so, not in* the Screen
Writers' Guild at that time, but she had held a position in the Screen
Writers' Guild.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the position?
Mr. Lytton. She was — I don't know if she was — she was not execu-
tive secretary. She was an officer, a supervisor, to say the least. I
don't know what her official position was.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, do you ki;iow in whose home the meeting was
held?
Mr. Lytton. No, I do not.
Mr. Tavenxer. Or any of the meetings you attended?
Mr. Lytton. Yes, I do.
Mr. Tavenner. In whose homes were they ?
Mr. Lytton. I attended a meeting in the home, I think one or two
meetings in the home of Dan James.
Mr. Taatsnner. Was he a screen writer ?
Mr. liYTTON. It is my impression he was a screen writer.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, during the short period of time when you had
returned to the Communist Party did you have an occasion to attend
any fraction meetings ?
Mr. Lytton. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly about that,
please ?
Mr. Lytton. I attended two fraction meetings. I went in attend-
ance upon two fraction meetings. One was canceled. I believe they
were in regard to the issue of the strike that the Conference of Studio
Unions were conducting at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. When I say "fraction meetings'' I am referring to
fraction meetings of the Communist Party. Is that your understand-
ing?
31747—53 — pt. 2 2
450 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Lytton. That is right.
Mr. Tavennek. Will you tell the committee who took part in the
fraction meeting that you attended ?
Mr. Lytton. Once again I have to state this, Mr. Tavenner. ^Vhile
I know that a large immber of screen writers, motion picture people
were members of the Communist Party — and there isn't a shadow of
a doubt in my own mind as to their membership — my membership was
of such sliort duration and the difficulties attendant upon it, including
the blacklisting that I very clearly suffered from, that it would be diffi-
cult for me to pin down very many as having specifically been at any
given time or place or meeting.
I hope that you will understand that, because 1 wish to be responsive.
At one fraction meeting, John Wexley approached me, and I recall it
very well because he approached me at the meeting, and he said,
"Bart, you should be with us."
That w^as the second time -I heard "with us.'* And he meant by that
a writers' more closed group, and he said, "You will be called." And
the following meeting was my last meeting.
Mr. Velde. I believe this will be an appropriate place to take a
recess. The committee will be in recess for 10 minutes, until 5 minutes
after 11.
(Short recess was taken.)
Mr, Velde. The committee will be in order.
Ml'. Tavennee. Mr. Chairman, it has just been called to my atten-
tion that the mention by the witness of a person by the name of Ann
Morgan might give rise to some misunderstanding as to the Ann
Morgan referred to by the witness.
There is an Ann Morgan who is a teacher in the Los Angeles schools.
Are you well enough acquainted with the Ann Morgan whom you
mentioned in the course of your testimony to be able to state that it is
not the person that I just referred to?
Mr. Lytton. I am not well acquainted with the person you just
mentioned to testify that it is not, but I know this, that Ann Roth
Morgan was not a schoolteacher.
Mr. Tavenner. And never has been a schoolteacher to your knowl-
edge?
Mr. Lytton. I doubt that she has.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether the person referred to, that
is, the person referred to by 5^ou as Ann Morgan, Ann Roth Morgan,
is also known by the name of Ann Roth Morgan Richards?
Mr. Lytton. That I don't know.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. Mr. Chairman, I think I should state for the
record that we know, from our investigative work, that those names
refer to the same person, that is, that the person mentioned by the
witness is the same person as Ann Roth Morgan Richards who was
subpenaed as a witness before this committee.
Mr. ScHERER. And not the schoolteacher.
Mr. Tavenner. And is an entirely different person from the school
teacher. I believe that clears that up.
Mr. Clardy. If it doesn't, Mr. Counsel, you would welcome her
appearing here if she wishes to, so we may be certain?
Mr. Tavenner. Oh, yes ; if she would like to appear liere.^ she will
be welcome.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 451
Will you tell us, please, the names of the persons who were identified
with this group of writers in the Communist Party, if you can?
Mr. Lytton. Well, either at a fraction meeting or at the home of
Dan James or one other meeting I attended, I can state that I saw or
talked to John Howard Lawson, of course, and Jay Gorney, Dan
and Lilith James, and Stanley Praeger and Maurice Clark.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us further identifying information
relating to the last person you mentioned?
Mr. Lytton. Only that I knew Mr. Clark in New York when he
was connected with a group called the Theater Collective.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you tell us, please, any further cir-
cumstances that you may have regarding your leaving the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Lytton. I was at this time expelled from the Communist Party
formally. I had argued at these few meetings I attended and I was
expelled from the party. The charges were that I was an agent
provocateur, that I was an FBI plant, and that I was generally to be
considered as an enemy of labor and the people.
I will let the "people" make their own judgment on that.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the approximate date when that
occurred ?
Mr. Lytton. That occurred, it seems to me that that occurred in
late 1945 or the middle of 1945. I don't know.
Mr. Ta\'enner. At the beginning of your testimony you told us that
you are no longer in the screen-writing business.
Mr. Lytton. That is right.
Mr. Ta\tsnner. When did you terminate your screen- writing career ?
Mr. Lytton. At the same time that I terminated with the Com-
munist Party. I didn't terminate at that time, but I had no further
career.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliy was that? i
Mr. Lytton. I found that from then on a variety of wild charges
were made all over town, incorrect identifications, identifications that
occur unhappily at a moment like this. For example, a writer named
Barre Lyndon was writing a picture "I Married a Communist." I am
not Barre Lyndon and he was writing an anti-Communist picture. It
was charged that Bart Lytton wrote it. My wife was called and she
was cursed up and down roundly by a former friend.
She was told, "Don't you believe that he isn't writing it. We know
he is writing it," for example, and so on.
I found that from any interview that I seemed to have thereafter I
didn't get a job. An interesting one to me was one where a producer,
whom I did not know, had expressed keen interest in a story I had
written. I was invited to the studio to see this producer, and I went
to the studio, RKO, again, and the producer was Adrian Scott. When
he saw who the writer was he apparently didn't like it, let us put it
that way. He delivered me a stern lecture on fascism and dismissed
me curtly without discussion of the story.
I was to be hired by Abe Burrows to write specialty mat-erial for
him. I met him at his request at the Brown Derby on Vine Street.
He said, "Gee, I have decided I don't need a specialty writer. I don't
need a writer." And he turned around and walked out on an invitation
to lunch.
452 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Tliis kiiul of incidentH kept ()cc-iuiiii«>-. Wherever I tunied I was
astounded tliat while the party was not hirge, they had as many areas
of influence as they had in Hollywood. I made several attempts to
have a liearing on the matter. 1 didn't want to <i:et back in the Com-
munist Party. I wanted no part of it. I had learned everything I had
to leaiii about it and everything it represented, but I w^anted a hearing
because I wanted to be confronted with any evidence that might exist,
and I wanted to see what they had to say. I was never afforded a
hearing, I was never afforded any opportunity.
I was told, "We don't have to give you a hearing. We don't have
to listen to you. We know what you are."
I asked wlio told them those things, and they said, "That is our
business," and so forth.
The feeling there was simply that I was guilty because I was seen
with an Army officer who was known to be an intelligence officer. The
Army officer was my brother. He was a captain in the field artillery.
Mr. Jackson. So that Avas guilt by association.
Mr. Lyiton. Yes, sir; guilt by association.
Mr. Jackson. Isn't that a very reprehensible thing in the Commu-
nist Party parlance?
Mr. LvTroN. 1 think "guilt by association" is generally reprehensible
and I think the Communists have very poor grace in ever accusing
anyone else of it.
Mr. Jackson. Except for the fact that a bank cashier who travels
around with thugs and holdup men. He doesn't hold his job very
long, does he?
Mr. Lytton. I don't Iniow what you mean.
Mr. Jackson. That would be guilt by association.
Mr. Ltti'on. I see what you mean ; yes, that is right.
Mr. Jackson. But the Communists do practice guilt by association.
Mr. Lytton. Most assuredly they do. There is no question about
that.
Mr. Clardy. Of course, they never assassinate anybody's character.
Mr. Lytton. They did their darnclest to assassinate mine. Well, let
us put it this way : I was no longer welcome in any of the circles I
previously knew. People would not talk to me about it. The very
nice people to whom I am indebted for my appearance here today,
Pauline and Leo Townsend, I went to, because I had seen them at a
meeting, and I asked them what it was about, and at that time they
weren't out of the decompression chamber and they appeared nervous
and ill at ease about the matter, and said that I had better talk to
somebody else.
They w^ere the only people, incidentally, who would even speak to
me about it. Others just simply turned their backs.
Mr. Doylk. You mean that only Connnunists wdio would talk to
you?
Mr, Lytton. No, sir; I wouldn't say — I will put it a little stronger
than "only Conmnmists." I would say that the Reds have a lot of
fellow travelers, as you know, and you get to know pretty well who
the fellow travelers are, or you would say, "Well, maybe this person
is a Communist. I don't know whether he is a Communist Party
member, but I know he is a Communist or a fellow traveler."
The fellow ti-avelers, in turn, have influence at concentric circles,
influence upon liberals, we will say, and this goes on. Now, they
COJVIJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 453
didn't care what they said and they said many things that had no
basis in fact whatsoever.
Mr. Clardy. What you are trying to say is that they are tlie most
intolerant people on earth.
Mr. Lyttox. Tolerance is not even considered to be a virtue in the
Connnunist Partj^ according to its teachings.
Mr. Clardy. You are agreeing with me, then, I take it ?
Mr. Lytton. j\Iost assuredly.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Well, as a result of your experience in the Com-
munist Party, you left the field of screen writing; is that what I
understand ?
Mr. Lytton. Well, let us say that it was certainly a large contribut-
ing factor. I was unable to secure another job in town.
I had the interesting experience, incidentally, of being told by a
couple of producers that I was a known Communist. I said, "How
did you learn that?"
And he said, "Well, your name was dropped by a couple of people
I know to be Communists."
This was in that period. In other words, if it was necessary to state
that I was a Communist not to get a job, they would do it that way.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask this question 'i
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. I hope you will see the pertinence of my question, sir.
Up until the time of your trouble with the Communist Party
leadership, as a screen writer you had been financially successful ?
Mr. Lytton. I certainly had.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. You mentioned the name of Mr. Stanley Praeger.
Will you spell that for me ?
Mr. Lytton. P-r-a-e-g-e-r, I believe.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. What is his occupation — what was it at that time ?
Mr. Lytton. Oh, he was a road show Lou Costello. That is what
you call a poor man's comic. He used to appear at all social affairs
ana do skets and skitches — "skets and skitches," that is interesting.
And he was, I think, for a time employed at Twentieth Century-Fox
as a comedian.
]Mr. TA^■ENNER. Since the time of your withdrawal from the Com-
munist Party or your expidsion, have you engaged in any Communist
Party activities, to your knowledge?
Mr. Lytton. No, sir. In the decompression period, which we will
speak of again, I supported Henry Wallace in 1948 in his candidacy
for the Presidency of the LTnited States, before the campaign and
during part of it, but before the campaign was over, however, I didn't
like the associations that it required and I ceased that support. I
voted for him, however.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that is all I desire to ask.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. Your contention, as I understand it, Mr. Lytton, is
that as a result of your break with the party that you were, in turn,
reviled and blacklisted by those with whom you had previously been
associated ?
Mr. Lytton. It is stronger than a contention, sir. At any time and
any place I would provide evidence that that is so.
454 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Jackson. In other words, those who now scream "Blacklist"
are in some instances, at least, the same people who used the black-
list as a weapon against you when you broke with the Communist
Party?
Afr. Lyrrox. They most assuredly did.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clarcly.
Mr. Clardy. They practice the worst kind of persecution possible,
don't they ?
Mr. Lyttox. I only know what happened to me
Mr. Clardy. From your own experience would you not agree?
Mr. Lytton. Representative, and I would say that the inflictions
upon me brought me to a state of nervous collapse; that it stopped
what at least had been a successful career. I had come to a point
where I made the kind of money that is most respectable. I was a
successful and a prolific writer.
It not only stopped me from getting jobs, it finally affected my
ability to put words on paper. It was a terrifying, humiliating,
devastating experience. And as a result of that experience anything
that I can ever do to aid in taking the cancer, the sickness, out of our
social well-being, our society, I stand more than ready to do.
Mr. Clardy. Wouldn't you say that those bleeding hearts who bleed
against this committee and the work that it is doing are guilty of the
grossest kind of fraud on the American public today?
Mr. Lytton. I don't think there is any doubt about that.
Mr. Clardy. That is all.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chaimian, in view of the testimony that has been
so ably given by this witness, and in view of Mr. Clardy's remarks, I
would just like to read a few excerpts from a pamphlet entitled
"Courage is Contagious" that is being circulated in the Los Angeles
area by the Citizers Committee to Preserve American Freedoms, of
which the Reverend A. A. Heist is chairman. I think in view of the
testimony that we have heard, and that which we have heard all during
the past week, people that are listening on the radio and television
should see what this committee has to face in different parts of the
country from groups such as the Citizens Committee to Preserve
American Freedoms.
Here are just a few excerpts from that publication :
The House Un-American Activities Committee has long stood indicted of
subverting the Bill of Rights.
It has shown total disregard for American principles of due process.
*******
Because the committee does not trust our traditions, it is causing the whole
world to distrust us.
• **••••
The committee is the most un-American feature of life in the United States —
practicing those very evils of which they accuse the Kremlin and its satellites.
*******
A logical first step for us is the abolition of the un-American committee.
EiVery Congressman must be urged to vote against all appropriations for its
activities.
• •••*••
The most un-American activity I know is that of the Un-American Activities
Committee * * * The grounds of attack are un-American. The procedure is
un-American. The result is un-American, for a man may be condemned even
If he is cleared.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 455
I just would like you people here to listen to those statements, in
view of what has been demonstrated to you and to the television
audience in the last few days of these hearings.
Mr. Jackson. Will the gentleman yield briefly ?
Mr, ScHERER. Yes.
Mr. Jacksox. There is one thing which could be much worse than
that, and that is if the Reverend Heist and his organization supported
the committee. That would be an extremely serious situation.
Mr. Walter. I am not a resident of California, of course, and know
nothing aliout this or the gentleman. Is he an ordained minister, and
has he a parish or church ?
Mr. ScHERER. He is a retired Methodist minister, unfortunately.
Mr. Walter. I made an examination, cursory, of course, this morn-
ing, and found that not only is that pamphlet filled with misrepresen-
tations, but with tilings that are absolutely false. And it is a tragic
thing, to my mind, that a man of the cloth would deliberately lie.
Mr. Scherer. I think you are right, Mr. Walter. I think this hear-
ing this week has demonstrated more clearly than anything else that
these allegations are lies.
And, Mr, Chairman, may I read just a few more excerpts?
Mr. Velde. Yes. Proceed, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Let's ask any of you people who have been here today
if you have seen anything like this.
The committee has the power to sully a man's reputation unmercifully, * * *
can send a witness to jail for refusal to answer a question — even one which
a court might not require him to answer * * * Committee members can and
do slander witnesses with impunity.
*******
I charge this committee with contributing to the buildup of a big lie in this
country with respect to the alleged menace of communism.
*******
The printed record of the Un-American A,ctivities Committee that reaches the
public, therefore, is a censored, emasculated version of the committee's un-
American activities.
As Mr, Clardy said the other day, the press has done a marvelous
job, as well as television and radio, in getting every word that has
transpired here to the public, so how can there be any emasculation of
the testimony ?
The claim that the committee has done much to "educate" the American
people to the menace of communism is canceled by the committee's success in
confusing and terrifying them. Terror and confusion do not make for successful
defense against anything * * *
Mr. Clardy. You are still reading from the pamphlet, I trust ?
Mr. Scherer. I am reading from the pamphlet.
Mr. Clardy. I don't want the audience to get the impression that
that is your idea.
Mr. Scherer. I don't think they have gotten that impression.
Now, the last one :
The fears whipped up by the un-Americans are the bastard offspring of
hysteria and greed. Conditions that spell misery for millions are perpetuated
only because they are profitable for a few.
Mr. Clardy. You say a minister put that out ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes.
Mr. Walter. Don't you think it might be well, in view of all of the
name-calling and the extravagant use of the kind of language not
456 COM]VIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
frequently used by a cler^3'inan, that lie ought to be extended an in-
vitation to come to Washington and tell us exactly what is wrong with
our operation ?
Mr. Clardy. I vote for that motion, Mr. Walter.
Mr. Jackson. May I ask one question? This is directed to the
witness, Mr. Lytton.
Does that content ring a bell with you in any way from your ex-
perience in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lytiox. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. In other words, the straight Communist Party line?
Mr. Ly'iton. I d(m't know what the Connnunist Party line is
today.
Mr. Jackson. Well, it was yevSterday ?
Mr. Lytton. I only say that as I knew the Communist Party line
it would have fit.
Mr. Clardy. It is a typical Communist tactic; isn't it?
Mr. Lytton. I think it is one.
Mr. Clardy. I didn't mean to say it is all of them, but it is at least
one ; isn't it ?
Mr. Lyi-ton. I think so.
Mr. Schf;rer. The pathetic thing is that there are so many men
like the Reverend Heist — not so many, but enough of them who are
not members of the party who are sold on such things as I have just
read.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Walter.
Mr. Walter. I want to congratulate you on coming before this
committee, and I am sure that my colleagues of the committee feel
as I do about it. This isn't a nice job that we are obliged to do. It
is a duty. Some of us are doing it against our better judgment. But
it certainly took a lot more intestinal fortitude to do what you have
done than it did for those people who came here and hid behind the
very Constitution which if they had their way thej^ would destroy.
And I congratulate you.
Mr. Lytton. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Let me join in that.
Mr. LYTroN. Thank you.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. DoYLE. Mr. Chairman, I wish to say this to the witness. I
join heartily in thanking you for coming and exposing the conspiracy
which you did and the manner in which you did it. And in connec-
tion with that compliment to you, I wish, Mr. Chairman, to say while
I do not have more than just personal acquaintance with the counsel
now sitting beside the witness, he had with him yesterday a very able,
distinguished attorney, who lives in my old congressional district in
Los Angeles County, and I want to compliment him, and the partner
here today, counsel for this witness, as men of the bar, successful as
they are, taking time to come to this sort of a proceeding and add
dignity and patriotic attitude by the bar toward the United States
Congress.
Before I close, Mr. Chairman, I have received so many requests,
both orally here and over the phone, and by messenger, where people
are asking under what basic law this committee functions. I have had
four questions to that effect this morning. While I have often re-
ferred to this, I believe it is pertinent, in view of the observations by
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 457
the distingnislied committee member from Ohio, especially, that I
take one minute to read just this basic law, Public Law 601.
The Committee on Un-American Activities as a whole or by subcommittee is
authorized to malie from time to time investigations of the extent, the cliaracter,
and the objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, the
diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda
that is instigated from foreign countries, or of a domestic origin, and attaclvS the
principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and all
other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary
remedial legislation. The Conimittee on Un-American Activities shall report
to the Hoi.sp, or to the clerk of the House, if the House is not in session, the
results of any such investigation, together with such recommendations as it
deems advisable.
That was Public Law 601 passed by the 79th Congress, and that of
course is the basic hiw under which this committee is here today.
Then I wish to read just one paragraph of Public Law 831, the
81st Congress, which is the enunciation by the United States Con-
gress of its attitude as representing the American people of the Com-
munist movement in the United States.
I read section 2 of Public Law 831 of the 81st Congress :
Necessity for legislation. As a result of evidence adduced before the various
committees of the Senate and House of Representatives, the Congress hereby
finds that —
(1) There exists a world Communist movement which, in its origin, its de-
velopment, and its present practice, is a worldwide revolutionary movement
whose purpose it is, by treachery, deceit, infiltration into other groups (govern-
mental and otherwise), espionage, sabotage, terrorism, and any other means
deemed necessary to establish a Communist totalitarian dictatorship in the
countries throughout the world througli the mediiim of a worldwide Communist
organization.
And I have again taken time to read those, Mr. Chairman, for the
reasons stated.
Also, I think this large audience here in the room, as well as the
large number of people seeing the work of this committee on television,
should understand that this committee is here under an express direc-
tion of the United States Congress, which in the 81st Congress adopted
as its declaration of policy and conclusion the fact that there does exist
a world Communist conspiracy.
I just wish to call the attention of the audience, also, in the room
here, that when the matter of appropriation for this committee this
year was before the House of Representatives, in which we requested
the sum of $300,000, which, by the way, was the largest sum ever asked
for by this committee, there were only 2 votes against it in all the
membership of the United States House of Representatives.
Of 435 Members, only 2 negative votes.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Lytton, I join my colleagues in expressing my
very sincere appreciation for the fine testimony and the great assist-
ance you have rendered this committee by appearing here.
Mr. Lytton. Thank you, Mr. Frazier.
Mr. Frazier. That is all.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Lytton, the Chair also wishes to concur and join
with the other members who have expressed their gratitude for your
appearance here.
Mr. Counsel, is there any reason why this witness should not be
dismissed ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
458 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Lytton. Just before being dismissed, Mr. Chairman, I wasn't
asked what might be done, and everyone has his own opinion, and if
1 could have just a moment to state it, I should like to.
Mr. Velde. Certainly.
Mr. DoTLE. I think that would be very valuable, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Lytton. T have two things in particular on my mind: First,
1 think it well that we understand that these people, the bulk of them,
are not villians. I knew them. They w^ere my friends. They are for
the most part fine enough people as individuals. They are deluded,
they are misled. That is our judgment. And it is certainly a judg-
ment concurred in by all free men, I think, throughout the world.
Mr. Walitie. Do you think that is true todaj', since w^hat occurred
in Korea and what is now going on in Kussia ?
Mr. Lytton. Congressman Walter, I am not talking about members
of the Communist Party today. I think anyone who is a member of
the Communist Party today, with all the evidence that is in, is either
sick or dangerous. I am talking about countless people like myself,
however, who had a short or longer brush with the Communist Party.
And I think we have to help them out. I think we have to help them
in many ways to come through to a real understanding of the won-
derful country in which they live, and its way of life, to understand
the nature of the society in which they live from our point of view.
In order to help them, I modestly propose to this committee that if
a witness be brought here, subpenaed to appear before this committee,
and if he is not yet ready to tell all, let him tell that part that he
wishes to tell.
I told all. I was a responsive witness, and I think, therefore, I hav-e
the right to say this. I understand these peoj^le. The_y are going
through a grave, emotional crisis. They would like to be helped. And
let's not make them case-hardened Reds. Because if we don't help
them on these first difficult steps, in which many of them are paying
tribute to adults, as far as they .are concerned, we will drive them iDack
frantically into the arms of the Communists.
I don't want to see this happen to many decent people whom I
suspect would come here gladly if they felt they didn't have to answer
perhaps two names, or something of the sort. Each person has that
which he doesn't want to respond to. Because I was a fully responsive
witness and told 3^ou what I know, I know what they went through
in arriving at that.
I suggest humbly that we help them through. It may be the next
stage for the committee to bring in people openly and say, "All right,
you tell us now what you know, we will let the American people be
the judge." And they are a mighty good and a mighty fine and warm
judge. I know, because I have today a large business, it is a success-
ful enterprise, I have 30 people on my staff. I want to tell you that to
a man and a woman they have stood up and told me they were with me.
I want to tell you that my business associates, that the people with
whom I do business, told me, bocfiuse I told them in advance of this
hearing, that I would be here, how they felt about my appearance here.
And I want to assure those people, in turn, that they will be received
back in the community, the community will welcome them most whole-
heartedly. Let's give them the chance for the first steps, and then I
think many of them will come along to subsequent steps.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 459
Secondly, and I will conclude. I would like to suggest that it is
time that we beamed the Voice of America both ways. I feel that
every large organization has its public-relations department.
I would like to tell you exactly why I was not susceptible, really, to
Communist indoctrination. It is very simple. It is a matter of moral
suasion. It is the fact that I was taught as a boy the difference between
right and wrong, and it is the fact that I was imbued with a deep love
for America. I always loved it.
My parents before me, my grandparents, my great-grandparents
loved America, and I was imbued with such a deep love for it that
when I recognized that this was really aimed against and not for my
country, I dropped it.
Now, I think it most important that we teach and we imbue and we
inspire this love, and I think that the Voice of America could do much
to do this, because I think it is high time in this war of ideas that we
sold ourselves to ourselves.
I would like to suggest that the committee think about that and
perhaps recommend an appropriation, and a large one, for such pur-
poses. Every organization, even if they are not on salary, has a pub-
lic relations or sales department. For Heaven's sake, let's have
America have its own public-relations department tell us about our
country. Use every means, the means the Communists use so cleverly,
let us use, decently and clearly, pamphlets, speeches, radio, every pos-
sible means. Let's give every educational instrument it is possible to
give, because I believe that a constructive program is necessary, that
we have to fight this idea, this monstrous idea, we have to fight with a
better idea, and we have so much better an idea if only we would
get to the people.
I am sorry. I realize I sounded like I was making a speech.
Mr. Frazier. It is a very good one.
Mr. Velde. It is all right.
Mr. Clardy. May I suggest the committee is already following your
first suggestion as to how to treat witnesses. We are following that
procedure pretty religiously, and I am glad to hear you approve of it.
Mr. Lttton. I might say that I was treated most courteously by
Mr. Tavenner, by Mr. Wheeler, when they discussed what I knew with
me, and that they are remarkably fair; that they never asked me at
one point to say anything that I could not say under oath as absolutely
so. They never asked me to say, "Well, don't you think so-and-so," or
they didn't ask me to say, "Well now, you could recall," or something
of that sort. They merely asked me what I could say positively, and
when I a few times said, "I am not sure about this or that," they said,
"That is all right, then, don't tell us if you are not sure."
I want to compliment them in their handling of it.
Mr. DoTT.E. jNIr. Chaimian, in view of the fact that Public Law
601, which I read a moment ago, charges this committee with recom-
mending to the United States Congi-ess any remedial legislation, I
would like to ask this witness before he leaves the witness stand
whether or not the field of legislation dealing with the Communist
conspiracy has been given any consideration by you; and, if so, if
you have any suggestions to give this committee as to what remedial
or additional or different legislation we should consider recommend-
ing to the United States Congress. Have vou given any thought
to that?
460 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Ltttox. I liave, but I have no positive conclusions. There
is nnicli discussion as to whether the Communist Party should be
outlawed. At this time I do not think that it is a good idea. I think
that it has certain dan*rers in it.
I hold with the FBI on the matter of the outlawino; of the Com-
munist Party. I believe the position of the FBI is that it should
not be outlawed. I think they are quite correct, because I think
nothinfi^ is liked by those of a martyr complex better than to have
the position of martyrdom, to beffin with, thrust upon them.
And, secondly, I think driving them underground will make
them more difficult to find and expose, and I think they may use it
as an issue, and that, I think, is the dangerous — and, worse than that,
once they do recruit someone into an undergi'ound movement he will
never get out alive.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much.
Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question in that connection, Mr. Chair-
man?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. Is it possible to conceive anything in the way of
an underground movement which would be more diabolical or more
completely conspiratorial, more completely underground than the
operation of an espionage ring in the Nation's Capital ?
Mr. Lytton. Well, I think your question is very apt, because I
think the party's roots are deep underground.
Mr. Jackson. It is like an iceberg.
Mr. Lytton. And itvS flower is just peeping above the soil.
Mr. Jackson. There is one-eighth above the water and seven-eighths
below the water.
Mr. Lytton. No doubt about that. But I would feel that if the
party were to be outlawed that tliere are two grave dangers. One
IS that, once outlawed, those who remain with this outlawed gi'oup
would tend to become so hardened that they would never move away
and they would be tliereby that much more dangerous.
I am like many Americans who are trying to find out what should
be done. On the other hand, however, outlawing has one basic advan-
tage. It is saying clearly to young people that it is illegal. Now,
most young people, if tliey have charact«r, and while they will play
with radical ideas, won't do anything illegal; so it may have that
advantage of stating "This is illegal."
1 once prepared a sketch in which my plan was called Soak the
Reds. I paid some high income taxes and I realized that a great
part of it was going, the greater part of it was going, because of this
conspiracy in the world, because of the war situation, I thought, "Well,
heck, they have yelled for many years 'soak the millionaires'; so
now we will say 'soak the Eeds' ; let us tax them out of existence."
I wish it were possible, but every time I pay my tax I think it is a
shame that they are allowed a personal exemption, because I thought
a personal exemption was allowed to only Americans. But in any
event, and more seriously, I think the problem is twofold.
One, there is the problem of the Communist Party and communism,
and then there is the problem of socialism. And, as to socialism, I
believe we have to act positively in order to vitiate the belief in
socialism which should have been demonstrated clearly to any reason-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 461
able man today as unworkable, as badly conceived, and as having no
place in our American way of life. But a lot of people don't know
that yet. They have yet to learn that.
I know in pictures they still show — don't still show it, but they were
still showing it, let us say, that a banker is always a villain. That
is not done by Conununists. It is done by writers. A banker is
always a villain. Now, I work every day with bankers, and they
are not villains. I know they are not villains. I know some of the
nicest people I have ever met were bankers, and they were very human.
I have never met a man in the banking business who ever was willing
or anxious to foreclose on a home.
Mr. Velde. The witness is excused with the committee's thanks, and
the committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
Mr. LYTTOisr. Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 11 : 50 a. m., the hearing was recessed to reconvene
at 2 p. m. same day. )
ATTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 2: 14 p. m of the same day, the proceedings were
resumed. Representatives Harold H. Velde (chairman), Donald L.
Jackson, Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, Francis E. Walter, and
James B. Frazier, Jr., being present.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will come to order.
Let the record show that present are Mr, Jackson, Mr. Clardy, Mr.
Scherer, Mr. Walter, Mr. Frazier, and the chairman, Mr. Velde, a
quorum of the full committee.
Mr. Counsel, do you have a witness ?
Mr. Ta\^nner. Yes. I would like to call Miss Jody Gilbert.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give this committee,
do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? '
Miss Gilbert. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JODY GILBERT, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL,
WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please?
Miss Gilbert. Jody Gilbert.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your first name, please ?
Miss Gilbert. J-o-d-y.
Mr. Ta\tnner. Are you accom]ianied by counsel ?
Miss Gilbert. Yes; I am. There isn't room for both of them.
Could we do something about that ? I would be all right by myself,
believe me. I am happy to have them with me.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves?
Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall, Los Angeles.
Mr. EsTERMAN. William B. Esterman, Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you born ?
Miss Gilbert. Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?
Miss Gilbert. Well, I went through high school in Texas, but I
don't like to leave it at that because since I was 4 years old I have
462 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THK LOS ANGELES AREA
been training and preparinir and studying to work at my profession.
There lias been considerable training of one kind or another since I
was 4 years old. I consider this part of my education right now.
Mr. SciiERER. I am sorry, I can't hear the witness.
Mr. Velde. Will the witness please raise her voice?
Miss Gilbert. Which mike? There are four of them.
Mr. Velde. The long one, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ?
Miss (jilbert. Now ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Miss Gilbert. That is a little bit difficult to say. My profession
at the moment is as a witness.
Mr. Tant.nner. Well, what has your profession been in recent
weeks or months or yeai^?
Miss Gilbert. Weeks?
Mr. Tavenner. Months or years.
Miss Gilbert, Months or years?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Miss Gilbert. I have been many things. I have been an actress in
the theater, radio, television, movies. I forgot the movies; I am
sorry. I have been a teacher and I have been a student.
Mr. Tavenner. Let us begin with your career as an actress. Would
you describe in a general way — not in great detail — what your
Miss Gilbert. My first appearance, or my first movie or my first
radio show or my first television show?
Mr. Tavenner (continuing). What the record of your profession
has been. If you were entitled to screen credits and received them in
moving pictures or in i-adio, or any other matter, we would like to know
just what it has been.
Miss Gilbert. Well, the reason I speak a little slowly — and I hope
you won't infer from the fact I may sometimes stop to think before
I speak
Mr. Tavenner. We would prefer you to stop and think.
Miss Gilbert. I am not dangerous or ill, but it is simply because
I did swear to tell you the truth, and I have to stop and think before
I speak.
I was a little bit surprised myself, when I sat down to count up the
score the other night, because I didn't realize that I had such a fine
career, because I was such an unimportant person, you see, the person
that the Hollywood trade papers referred to as a good
Mr. Tavionner. Now, will you answer my question, please?
Miss Gilbert. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat are your screen credits?
Miss Gilbert. It is hard to remember the work that you do. Put
it this way : From 1932 to 1938 I worked mainly in the theater. From
1938 to — no, because I was in pictures before there was a Screen Writ-
ers' Guild — from 1937 to 1947 I worked mainly in pictures.
Miss Gilbert. Wliat were the main screen credits that you re-
ceived ?
Miss Gilbert. Well, like I
Mr. Tavenner. Beginning in 1938 to 1948.
Miss Gilbert. I did a himdred-and-thirty-some-odd pictures, and
it is a little difficult >
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 463
Mr. Tavenner. I didn't ask you for a detailed statement. I just
want the committee to have just some general idea.
Miss Gilbert. Screen credit?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Miss Gilbert. That is hard to remember, because I particularly
remember the people I worked with. You know, I don't mind being
called yesterday morning and having to sit here all day waiting for
you to put me on, because I am accustomed to that in the films, you
know, when they say 10 o'clock, hoping they will be able to use you
Mr. Tavenner, If you will just confine yourself to answering my
questions.
Miss Gilbert. I hope that you will stop me, Mr. Tavenner, because
I talk too much, like most women.
Mr. Ta\t5nner. I will do so.
Mr. Clardy. There are some witnesses who don't talk too nmch.
Miss Gilbert. Well, the Long Beach papers said that I would be a
talkative witness, and I don't want to disprove anything that is
printed in the press.
Mr. Tavenner. Just tell the committee what your principal screen
credits have been during the period from 1938 to 1948.
Miss Gilbert. Well, I mean anything I did — you know, I did pic-
tures with Gary Cooper, for one, a couple with John Wayne, and —
Mr. Tavenner. What were they?
Miss Gilbert. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Tavenner. I say, will you tell us what they were ?
Miss Gilbert. The pictures? One of the pictures I remember that
I did with Cooper was the first one for which he won the Academy
Award, and the second picture that I did with Gary Cooper I remem-
ber specifically because he is such a fine actor.
Mr. Tavenner. My only question — just a moment, please. My
only question —
Miss Gilbert. The second picture was with Mr. DeMille.
Mr. Tavenner. If you will just confine yourself to answering my
questions and naming the pictures, that is all I have asked you.
Miss Gilbert. Well, I remember those two specifically.
Mr. Tavenner. Were there any other pictures that you received
screen credits for, major screen pictures?
Miss Gilbert. Oh, I am so sorry. I didn't know — you want the
screen credit — because I don't think I received screen credits for many
of them at all. I received very good notices.
Mr. Tavenner. All right, then, I will change that question and
ask you what were some of the major pictures in which you took part?
Miss Gilbert. Well iiow, that again is a matter of semantics. I
have given you two or three major pictures. The one that I remember
most is the one that I — the one I remember the most is one in which I
got the best notices.
Mr. Tavenner. You are still not answering, and I will have to with-
draw my question, because you don't make your answers responsive.
Miss Gilbert. I am terribly sorry, Mr. Tavenner, but I worked in
so many pictures.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Yes. Well, let's leave the field of moving pictures
and let me ask you what has been your major participation in radio
scenes and in exhibitions.
464 COIVLMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Miss Gilbert. Exhibitions?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Miss Gilbert. I would be glad to. My major role which I phiyed
in radio 41/2 years was in a program called — you see, there is a prob-
lem about names, because tlie names change so often. It was first
called The Little Immigrant, and the name was then changed to
Life With Luigi.
Mr. Ta\enner. Wliat other major performances have you taken
part in ?
Miss GiiJiERT. It would be almost impossible for me to answer that
question without getting my records. I will be glad to, if you want.
I am sure my union has a record of it.
Mr. Tavenner. I do not want them in detail, and if you cannot
select some of the major ones we will just let it go at that.
Miss Gilbert. I have worked for nearly every network.
Mr. Tavenner. "\^^lere did you begin your career in the theater in
1932? Was it in Los Angeles or was it in some other place.
Miss Gilbert. I didn't begin in 1932. I began when I was 4 years
old. You didn't ask me how old I was ?
Mr. Tavenner. No.
Miss Gilbert. I don't mind telling you. Do you want to know ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, I didn't ask you. I find it is very difficult to
meet the wishes of the witnesses on that subject.
Miss Gilbert. I don't mind. Why don't you ask me and fuid out
if I want to answer it ? .
Mr. Tavenner. Some actresses have taken exception to my asking
that question, and I decided never to ask it again.
Miss Gilbert. That isn 't me, though.
Mr. Tavenner. If you want to volunteer, it is all right, but I am
not asking you.
Miss Gilbert. I will answer the questions that you ask me.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Then will you tell me where you began
your career in the theater ?
Miss Gilbert. When I was 4 years old, I told you.
Mr. Esterman. Where?
Miss Gilbert. My first public appearance was when I was 4 years
Did.
Mr. Tavenner. WHiere ?
Miss Gilbert. At the Majestic Theater in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you come immediately from Texas to Los
Angeles?
Miss Gilbert. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you go, to New York? That is what I
am inquiring about.
Miss ( GILBERT. Well, I went through high school in Texas, I told
you that. Then I went to New York, and I came out here, and I went
Lack to New York, wherever I could find work.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, of course, I am only interested in what your
work has been since you have been an adult, and I am trying to find out
where it is.
Miss Gilbert. Since I have been an adult. Then we didn't have
to go back that far.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA 465
Mr. Ta\^nxer. Certainly not. Will you tell us where you began
your career after reaching the age of maturity, or when you considered
you were an adult ?
Miss Gilbert. Well, I think that you have helped me to grow up,
]Mr. Tavenner, you see. That is why it is so difficult to understand
the meaning of your words. If you would give me a specific year, I
will be glad to tell you where I was and what I was doing.
jNIr. Tavexner. What cities in the United States ?
Miss Gilbert. Have I visited ?
Mr. Ta\'enner. Have you engaged in your work as an actress. Has
it been generally over the country ?
]\Iiss Gilbert. I have been all over. Do you want the list, really ?
Mr. TA\TE>rNER. I want to know principally where you centered
your activities before coming to Los Angeles.
INIiss Gilbert. In my activities ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
JNIiss Gilbert, As an actress?
Mr. Tavenner. As an actress.
Miss Gilbert. I suppose I have been acting all my life, because this
is the thing that has, interested me the most.
]Mr. Ta%'enner. When did you come to Los Angeles?
Miss Gilbert. When did I come to Los Angeles?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Miss Gilbert. I have been in the Los Angeles area since 1932, with
intermittent visits back and forth to New York.
]Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think possibly at this point I
should refer to a telegram which I received from a person by the
name of Miss Jo Gilbert, J-o.
Miss Gilbert. I get a lot of her checks.
Mr. Ta\tnner. Are you acquainted with Miss Jo Gilbert?
Miss Gilbert. I am, and Mr. Velde made the request this morning,
so I discussed it with my attorney whether or not it was advisable to
mention this person, and we decided that we would leave it up to the
committee in this regard. But since you asked, you know, I think
she should be mentioned, and a couple of others, because of the simi-
larity in name and the type of work that I do and the kind of person
that I am.
I made a list of seven people — I am sure there are a lot more —
whose letters I have received, and whose checks I have received, and
whose phone calls and requests for blind dates, you know. And I
don't want anything exce]pt what I have got coming to me, you see.
So I thought that these people's names mi^ht be mentioned.
Mr. Tavenner. That was my purpose in bringing up this matter.
Miss Gilbert. Thank you.
Mr. Velde. Suppose you read the telegram, counsel, into the record.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to read it. [Reading :]
Dear Sir: If you call Witness .Tody Gilbert, may I please have complete
identification. I have been in radio 16 years, Chicago, New York, Hollywood. In
TV and motion pictures, 3 years. I am not nor have I ever been associated with
the Communist Party, and am not the same person as your witness. Since news
of possible calling of Jody Gilbert, have received many phone calls and must
insist clarification between your witness and me. My name legally is .Josephine
Gilbert. Professional name, Jo Gilbert. My address, 6938 Camrose Drive.
Phone
31747 — 53— pt. 2 3
466 COI^IMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Miss Gilbert, I have tried, because I have had this trouble, I have
always had my address and phone number in the book.
Mr. Tavenner. "VVliat is your address?
Miss Gilbert. My address is in the phone book.
Mr. Tavexner. What is your street adress? Wliere do you reside?
Miss Gilbert. Well, before I say that, may I mention that I have
had a little trouble, too, in giving out my address, as well as Miss
Gilbert. I can certainly sympathize w^ith her. I would like to say
for the benefit of anyone whom I do not ask to visit me or phone me,
that I am under the protection of the Congress of the United States
and the Hollywood Police Department. I think that should be made
very clear.
(Representative Francis E. Walter left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your address, please?
Miss Gilbert. My address, which has always been in the phone
book, is 132514 North Bronson. And my phone number, if you want
it
Mr. Tavenner. No.
Miss Gilbert. It is in the book.
Mr. Ta\tenner. I can look it up if I need it.
Miss Gilbert. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee has received the testimony of Mr.
Narcisenfeld.
Miss Gilbert. Who?
Mr. Tavenner. Narcisenfeld, N-a-r-c-i-s-e-n-f-e-1-d. His first name
is Harvey.
Miss Gilbert. Wlio?
Mr. Tavenner. Harvey Narcisenfeld.
Miss Gilbert. Would you spell the last name, please?
Mr. Tavenner. The spelling was N-a-r-c-i-s-e-n-f-e-1-d.
Miss Gilbert. One moment. May I confer with my counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner, would it be possible for us to confer for about 2
minutes? It is a little difficult. Nobody is more aware of dead air
than I am.
Mr. Tavenner. I am willing for you to consult with counsel, of
course, but I haven't asked j'ou a question yet.
Miss Gilbert. I know you haven't, but this creates a question for
me, you see.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well.
Miss Gilbert. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner. I am sorry I interrupted,
you.
Mr. Tavenner. It is quite all right.
You liave been identified as having been a member of the Connnu-
nist Party by
Miss Gilbert. You are all going to have to be quiet, because Ij
can't hear.
I beg your pardon.
Mr. Velde. Let's have order, please.
Miss Gilbert. Thank you, Mr. Velde.
Mr. Tavenner. I say you have been identified by Mr. Harvey Nar-|
cisenfeld as having been a member of tlie Conununist Party, and I
want to ask you about that. Have you ever been a member of thej
Communist Party?
COMI^IUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 467
Miss Gilbert. Do you really expect me to answer that?
Mr. Ta\t2Nner. Well, I hope you will.
Miss Gilbert. You hope I will ^
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Miss Gilbert. Why didn't you come to my house and ask me that,
or bring me down here quietly ^
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I ask that she be directed to answer
the question.
Mr. Velde. Yes, Miss Gilbert, you are directed to answer that ques-
tion. It is very simple and entirely in accord with your rights in
this matter.
Miss Gilbert. Do you direct me to answer this question, Mr. Velde?
Mr. Velde. Yes, Miss Gilbert, please.
Miss Gilbert. Thank you, Mr. Velde.
I hope you will be quiet, because I am an actress and I am accus-
tomed to these lights and the mikes and everything else, but I hope
that these people will not infer that because I stop to think before I
speak, that there is anything guilty connected with it.
I decline the privilege of answering this question, and I have certain
grounds on which I decline, and I would like to invoke the IDth amend-
ment, which gives me equal rights to decline, and have just a few
moments to answer it.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, w^e understand that that is one ground. Do
you have any other ground ?
Miss GiLP.ERT. I have not given my legal grounds, Mr. Tavenner.
I have asked for just a moment to give my legal grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say that you were relying on
the 19th amendment.
Miss Gilbert. I did not say that. I said that I would like to invoke
the privilege of relying on the 19th amendment.
Is it permitted, Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Velde. Certainly.
Miss Gilbert. Thank you. I have certain grounds, certain very
definite grounds, Mr. Tavenner.
If you don't mind, I will pose for you afterward; I will be glad
to [addressing photographers].
Mr. Tavenner. There is no one attempting to photograph you.
Miss Gilbert. The Herald-Express put such an ugly picture in the
paper of me the other day my mother tore it up.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I think I have the same complaint to make.
Mr. Velde. Please proceed.
Miss Gilbert. I am terribly sorry. I am trying to concentrate.
Mr. Velde. This is a serious matter.
Miss Gilbert. It certainly is. I lost my job. My grounds for de-
clining what I consider to be the privilege of answering this ques-
tion don't have anything to do with the press or the cameras or the
people that are watching, or anything, except for the very profound
respect in which I hold the Congress of the United States. You may
find this hard to believe, but I took an oath I was going to tell the
truth, and this respect is the truth. Beyond that I have a very pro-
found respect for myself. Xo matter whether or not I have acted
like a clown or make jokes or tried to find some comfort in some
way to speak publicly, I have this respect and I thank you, Mr. Velde,
468 COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
for allowing me just a few minutes. I will try to be very sliort,
because I know I talk too much.
I have three grounds on which I want to decline the privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you name them, please ?
]\Ir. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I move the witness be directed by the
chairman to answer the question.
Mr. Velde. Yes. If you decline to answer these questions relating
to your connection with the Communist Party, it should be on a legal
basis.
Miss Gilbert. A legal basis?
Mr. Velde. Yes. Your legal grounds for not answering.
Miss Gilbert. I will try to be very short. When you sustain the
shock of a lifetime, being stopped in your profession with no excuses,
no reasons given, and you see — you sit for many days and you watch
people of brilliance being tortured, it isn't easy to choose the right
words to say at the moment of decision.
My legal grounds are actually based on powers of reasoning which
I am not allowed to expound here, as other people have been, so that
women don't have equal rights. They are based on the fifth com-
mandment, which reads, "Honor thy father and thy mother that thy
days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord thy God has given
thee."
I choose to interpret this to mean forefathers. For that very reason
I accepted, accept it as a privilege to be allowed to say, with all the
lights on, everybody listening, that the fifth amendment was written
for the protection of the innocent. It says nowhere in the fifth
amendment that anyone will be compelled to bear witness against
themselves. There is not one word in the fifth amendment about
self-incrimination.
I am not a lawyer, though I have conferred with lawyers and I
have talked to so many people it would make your head swim. If
you think I am
Mr. Velde. Now, your statement is not responsive to the question.
Miss Gilbert. I am sorry. I didn't finish.
Mr. Velde. Do you decline to answer the question ?
ISIiss Gilbert. I decline. I haven't finished my reasons. Do you
withdraw the question?
Mr. Velde. Do you rely on the 5th amendment as well as the 19th
amendment for your refusal to answer ?
Miss Gilbert. Mr. Velde, I actually rely on the Constitution of
the United States and the ten commandments, because of the fact
I am aware that the fifth amendment was written for the protection
of the innocent, and I rely on the fifth amendment. I am not hiding
behind it. I am standing right in front of it.
Mr. Velde. Do you have any further questions?
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. No.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy?
Mr. Clardy. No, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. SCIIERER. No.
Mr, Velde. Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. No.
COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 469
Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No.
Mr. Velde. Is there any reason why this witness should not be
excused.
Mr. Tavenner. No.
Mr. Velde. The witness is excused.
Miss Gilbert. I have one question.
Mr. Velde. The witness is excused.
Miss Gilbert. I am not allowed one question. I will ask it elsewhere.
Mr. Tavenner. William Oliver.
Mr. Chairman, William Oliver is in transit here, I understand. If
you are going to have a recess anywhere soon, this would be just as
good a place to take it.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. The other day during the course of the testimony of
the witness Danny Dare I made mention of an organization called the
American Jewish League Against Communism, which is headed in
Los Angeles by Rabbi Max J. Merritt.
In my opinion and the opinion of a great many people this league
is doing a very substantial and worthwhile service in their work. I
feel that the committee should take at least this degree of official recog-
nition of the work being clone by the American Jewish League Against
Communism. I ask unanimous consent that it may be inserted in
the record.
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. ScHERER. I suggest it be read.
Mr. Velde. Proceed to read it. ^
Mr. Jackson. It is addressed to Congressman Velde.
In this calculated attack being made on yon by subversives and their allies
because of your suggestion that men of the cloth who have taken part in
Communist or pro-Communist activities, ought not to be any more immune to
investigation than any other citizen, the American Jewish League Against Com-
munism, Inc., that I have the honor to serve as local executive director, wishes
to commend you for the stand that you have taken.
When men of the cloth, whether Protestant, Catholic, or Jew, take part in
subversive activities or give expression to subversive opinions that have no
faintest relation to their religious or spiritual functions, they have no reason
to complain when the spotlight of legislative inquiry is focused on them and they
are not entitled to hide behind the sanctity of the cloth.
I believe that the vast majority of the 140,000 clergymen in America — Catholic,
Protestant, and Jewish — have no complaint against the investigation of colleagues
who have made themselves apologists for a criminal and atheistic Russia.
Yours sincerely,
Rabbi Max J. Merritt.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, while we are at this point, may I read
another letter into the record regarding the identification of a person?
Mr. Velde. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. This letter has been received from Mr. Barry
Trivers.
Los Angeles 46. March 26, 1953.
Deau Chairman Velde: May I respectfully call the couunittee's attention
to an unintentional injustice which is being done to me, growing out of the fact
that there are two writers in the motion picture industry who are named
Trivers. One, Paul Trivers, has been named before the committee as an alleged
Communist ; on a number of occasions he has been mentioned and listed by last
name alone. This has caused confusion and may do harm to a writer named
470 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Riirry Trivers who very definitely wants no part of Paul Trivers' first name,
principles, or political idealogies.
I should be most grateful to you and the committee if they would be good
enough to make this vital point clear. Otherwise my own reputation and liveli-
hood may be jeopardized.
Your prompt consideration in this matter will be greatly appreciated.
Gratefully,
Barry Tkiveks.
Mr. Velde. The letter will be accepted into evidence and put in the
record at this particular point, and the committee will stand in recess
for 10 minutes.
(Short recess was taken.)
(Representative Velde left the hearing room during the recess, which
lasted from 2 : 50 p. m. to 3 : 10 p. in.)
(Representative Walter returned to the hearing room at 3 : 10 p. m.)
Mr. Jackson. The committee will come to order. Who is your next
witness, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. William Oliver. I had understood that he
was present.
Mr. Robert Kenny. He is on his way.
Mr. Tavenner. Still on his way? I believe we can wait a minute or
two.
Mr. Jackson. Tlie committee will stand in temporary recess.
(The committee stood in recess from 3 : 11 p. m. to 3 : 15 p. m.)
Mr. JACiisON. Do I understand the witness objects to the audio and
video ?
Mr. Robert Kenny. To everything.
Mr. Jackson. Very well. In that case, the witness will be set over
until Monday, to be notified by counsel.
Do you have another witness?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I would like to know first whether his
counsel is here. May I see you a minute, Mr. Esterman ?
(Conference between Mr. Tavenner and Mr. Estennan.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Albert Page.
Mr. Page. My counsel isn't in the room. I saw him going down the
corridor. I will attempt to get him.
Mr. Tavenner. Who is your counsel?
Mr. Page. Robert W. Kenny.
Mr. Tavenner. I suggest he be given an opportunity to have his
counsel present.
Mr. Jackson. Do you want to call another witness, or do you want
to wait?
Mr. Ta%t:nner. I can't see whether the witness is there or not.
Mr. Jackson. He is there.
Mr. Tavenner. I am taking your word for it. Just speak up. Are
you there?
Mr. Page. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. I suggest that the witness find his counsel and bring
him in as promptly as he can.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I understand that the witness has
had difficulty locating his counsel, and rather than delay matters
further, may I call another witness?
Mr. Jackson. Who do you wish to call ?
Mr. Tavenner. Charlotte Darling Adams.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 471
Mr. Jackson. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mrs. Adams. I do.
Mr. Tavexner. Be seated, please.
Mr. Chairman, while we are waiting, may I read another telegram
which has just been received?
Mr. Jackson. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner (reading).
Chairman Velde,
XJn- American Activities,
Federal Building, Los Angeles:
Thanks for the correction. I am not only a teacher but a Roman Catholic and
have been a screenwriter for 20 years. Thanks.
An n Morgan Barron.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLOTTE DARLING ADAMS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name?
Has the witness been sworn ?
Mr. Jackson. She has been sworn. You may proceed.
Mrs. Adams. Charlotte Darling Adams.
Mr. Tavenner, Are you accompanied by comisel ?
Mrs. Adams. No; I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you desire counsel ?
Mrs. Adams. No; I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. It is the practice of the committee to permit ^very
witness to consult counsel at any time they desire to do so.
Mrs. Adams. I would rather be on my own.
Mr. Jackson. Will you speak a little louder ?
Mrs. Adams. I am sorry. People usually can't hear me when I am
talking right to them.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state, please, where you were bom?
Mrs. Adams. Born in California.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been?
Mrs. Adams. I went to Hollywood High School, graduated, and I
attended part of a year at Los Angeles Junior College.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?
Mrs. Adams. I am a housewife.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you followed an occupation other than that of
housewife?
Mrs. Adams. Yes; I have.
Mr. Tavenner. What was it?
Mrs. Adams. I was a cartoonist.
Mr. Tavenner. A cartoonist?
Mrs. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time?
Mrs. Adams. From 1933 until — well, intermittently, I stopped sev-
eral times. Well, I stopped once to have — Can you hear me ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I am hearing you.
Mrs. Adams. I stopped first to have my first child, and quit alto-
gether in 1946 when I had my second one.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you employed during that period of
time ?
472 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mrs. Adams. Well, let's see. In — the first job I had in 1933 was in a
knitting mill in Los Angeles. Cal-Det Knitting Mill. That only
lasted 3 weeks. Then I was unemployed for a while and I went to
work at Ed Fox Productions, an animated film studio. This was dur-
ing the bank holiday, and I think that was in 1933, wasn't it?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes; it certainly was.
Mrs, Adams. I am a little fuzzy on dates sometimes. Anyway, that
lasted 6 weeks and the studio went broke. Then I went to work in
June of 1933 at Leon Schlesinger Productions.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the last name again?
Mrs. Adams. Schlesinger, Leon is the first name,
Mr. Ta\^nner. Yes.
Mrs, Adams. I worked there for 5 years. For 3 years I was what is
called an inker and for 2 years I was a background artist.
Mr. Tavenner. Your particidar work was that of inker, and what
else?
Mrs. Adams, Background artist. That was for the last 2 years,
Mr, Tavenner, Then it could be said that you were employed in the
craft end of the business rather than the creative end ?
Mrs, Adams, I was never at any time a creative artist,
Mr, Tavenner, Were you acquainted with Mrs, Bernyce Polifka
Fleury?
Mrs. Adams. Yes, I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she employed by the same company by which
you were employed ?
Mrs. Adams. Not at the same time, no.
Mr, Ta\tenner. How well acquainted were you with Mrs. Fleury?
Mrs. Adams. I knew her personally, and her husband.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with the fact that Mrs. Fleury
testified before this committee in September of 1951?
Mrs. Adams. Yes.
Mr, Tavenner. During the course of her testimony she identified
a person by the name of Charlotte,
Mrs. Adams. Undoubtedly me,
Mr. Tavenner. As a person who was known to her to have been a
member of the Communist Party group of which she was a member.
Mrs. Adams. I had no idea that she had mentioned my name.
Mr. Tavenner. You had no idea that she had ?
Mrs. Adams. No, I didn't read her testimony. I just heard that she
had testified.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, was she correct in that statement?
Mrs. Adams. Yes, she was.
Mr. Tavenner. That you were a member of that same group ?
Mrs. Adams. I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, in the course of Mrs, Fleury 's testimony she
described a rather violent disagreement, I should say a positive dis-
agreement, between herself and Mr, Ed Biberman regarding the use
of art. Can you enlighten the committee, or do you recall the incident ?
Mrs. Adams. Yes, I do. It was on an occasion, I think it was an
educational, open educational meeting where there were both Com-
munists and non-Communists present, and the discussion had to do
with art and whether or not an artist should express himself in any
way he chose or whether he should just reflect social influences, and —
COIMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 473
well, I am not really an artist, and it is a little above my head, but
that was the general idea.
There was a basic difference of opinion. I believe that Mr. Biber-
man felt that the artist had a duty to society to speak for people,
and so forth.
JNIrs. Fleury felt that an artist should paint as she wished.
Mr. Tavenner. Had Mr. Biberman attended many meetings of
groups of Communists, to your knowledge, when you were present?
Mrs. Adams. Yes, he did.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you at the time to be a member of
the Communist Party?
Mrs. Adams. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you acquire a feeling that the Communist
Party, through the leadership of Mr. Biberman, was attempting to
influence people in the practice of their art?
Mrs. Adams. Well, yes, and that was a point on which there was
quite a bit of disagreement, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. And Mr. Ed Biberman was one of the leaders in
the Communist Party, was he not? Was he not so recognized?
Mrs. Adams. He was well known.
Mr. Tavenner. And prominent in the work of the Communist
Party, within the knowledge of Communist Party members?
Mrs. Adams. Yes, I believe so.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have the feeling that he was a person who
spoke with some authority for the Communist Party?
Mrs. Adams. Oh, yes. He had that manner. /
Mr. Tavenner. And so if a person of that character and reputation
and personality of Mr. Biberman advocated a principle, it was a
matter that necessarily had weight with other Communist Party mem-
bers, wouldn't you say ?
Mrs. Adams. Yes, to a degree.
Mr. Tavenner. And on this particular occasion he was endeavoring
to lead the membership of the Communist Party into the line of carry-
ing out some special design in their art? By design I mean some
purpose.
Mrs. Adams. Well, the art phase of the Communist Party was never
that rigid. Actually, the fact that they had, that Mrs. Fleury and
Mr. Biberman had discussion — it was not like a debate, it was simply
a discussion, and the two ideas were thrown out for whoever was
listening to select.
Mr. Ta\^nner, Do you recall the circumstances under which Mrs.
Fleury left the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Adams. I think it had something to do with her disagreement
with Mr. Biberman.
Mr. Tavenner. It was because of her disagreement with the Com-
munist Party purpose to direct how she should practice her art?
Mrs. Adams. Well, I think that the party was more in favor of
Mr. Biberman's approach than it was Mrs. Fleury's.
Mr. Tavenner. And that resulted in her leaving the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Adams. I believe I heard you say the other day that that was
her reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, from your independent recollection.
Mrs. Adams. She didn't tell me herself.
474 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. How long did you remain in the party ?
Mrs. Adams. Until 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. 1946. Wliat were the circumstances under which
you got out of the party?
Mrs. Adams. I got tired of being told what to do.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you explain a little more fully what you mean,
please.
Mrs. Adams. Well, I am purely and simply a trade unionist, and
I always have been since a union has been available, and when it was
suggested to me that I gO back to the — this is almost immediately
following my leaving work after I had my baby — when it was sug-
gested to me I go back to work because I was useful to the party as
a trade unionist, I said, "This is the end. I am through." I didn't
want to have anything more to do with it.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, will you tell us more in detail how that direc-
tion was given to you, the circumstances under which it was given?
Mrs. Adams. Well, let's see. I was called on the telephone.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall by whom ?
Mrs. Adams. No, I don't. It was a woman, I think. I can't re-
member.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the members of your particular group
at the time that you withdrew from it ?
Mrs. Adams. That is kind of hard for me to remember, because dur-
ing that last year I didn't participate very much in the party, and
I went very occasionally to meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us what class or type of people
were in your particular group ? That is, were they members of your
own trade or profession explicity, or was it a larger group ?
Mrs. Adams. No, because Mr. Biberman, who was a member, was
not in our union. There were several people who were not. I don't
remember them very well.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of those you remember?
Mrs. Adams. I will tell you, Mr. Tavenner, I was a member of the
party for quite a long time, and participated in an awful lot of differ-
ent groups, due to the flexibility of the party itself.
If you remember, during this period when I belonged there were
a great many changes in policy and a great many changes in ap-
proach, you know, instruction and things like that, and consequently
it is pretty hard — I have been sitting down every night trying to
remember some of the things.
There are periods that are a complete blank, actually.
Mr. Tavenner. I do not believe you told us when you first became a
member.
Mrs. Adams. No, you didn't ask me before.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Well, will you tell us?
Mrs. Adams. Yes, I will. Would you like to know how I became
interested in the party ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; I would like to know that, too.
Mrs. Adams. I think it has to do with how I got the attitude which
made me respond. In about 1935 or 1936 a friend of the studio who
had done a little acting in college or something like that, I believe,
asked me if I would like to visit the Contemporary Theater, which
was, I believe, a lef twing theater in Los Angeles.
COACVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 475
She didn't tell me what kind of theater it was. She just said Con-
temporary Theater, and contemporary sounded — well, it sounded all
right to me, so I went with her. I was not interested in acting, myself,
but I thought maybe that I could find something of interest there.
Well, at that time they were producing, or in the process of run-
ning a play, an antiwar play which was called Bury the Dead. It
was a very stirring antiwar play, and it did have a lot to say against
war and its results. The play, however, was not a financial success,
I think. I made a scrapbook for them to keep their press
clippings in, and I worked a little on posters and things like that,
but there wasn't really much for me to contribute to the theater.
They started some classes there in, oh, various different things.
One was the social history of the theater, and I think there was a
class in acting, body movement, and I don't know what else.
I took the class in social history of the theater, because — well, it
just sounded interesting, and it was. It was conducted by an Eli
Jacobson. I have never heard of him since.
I wasn't happy there, because I felt out of things. Nobody — my
friends decided not to go any more, and nobody at the theater would
have conversation with me, and I thought it was rather peculiar, be-
cause I was willing to work, and I took notes on all the classes, but
I was treated with suspicion.
So then, let's see — oh, yes. They wanted to publish a series of
lectures which Mr. Jacobson had given in a magazine called the
New Theater. I don't know if you are familiar with that or not,
but it was a magazine devoted to the social theater. Nobody had
taken notes but me, and so they used my notes and the atmosphere
was a little friendlier then. I had a certain amount of regard for
those people. They all seemed very bright, and I was glad to be
accepted.
Well, they stopped going to the theater. At that time there was
a particular — I remember during the same period going to some meet-
ings for fund raising for the Spanish war, and I became, I would
say, anti-Fascist. It was such a novel situation to me that there was
no other choice.
At that time I was working at Leon Schlesinger Productions and
at that time a number of the cartoonists joined a union in the studio,
not the cartoonists' union, but one of the craft unions, a very small
group of craft unions it was, and they asked me if I would be inter-
ested in joining that.
I said "Yes," anything to improve conditions in the studio. So I
joined, and about the second meeting I went to, the union that we
belonged to decided that we were too small a group for them to bother
with, and about that time a number of unorganized different crafts
in the studios were organizing independent organizations for the pur-
poses of collective bargaining, and another small group who was in
this other union decided they would also organize, and the cartoonists
were interested.
Well, we were very green in the matter of organization. We knew
absolutely nothing about what we had to do.
Mr. Tavenner. I don't quite understand when you say "we."
Mrs. Adams. We had no experience, we had no understanding of
organization, so I asked several members of the union who were the
476 COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
unions organizing themselves independently if maybe they could help
us in our organization, and they said yes; they would be glad to.
And then one of them asked me if I would be interested in attending
a discussion group.
I said "Yes." And the discussion gi'oup turned out to be — had
to do with China, and at that time I believe Sun Yat-sen had been
the leader of the Chinese.
Mr. Tavenner. Without going into detail
Mrs. Adams. That was the subject, anyway, China and feudalism.
Mr. Tavenner. Did this group have a name?
Mrs. Adams. I don't know of any name.
Mr. Tavenner. Was this a group of the Communist Party at that
time?
Mrs. Adams. Well, yes ; I believe it was, although apparently there
were many people like myself who were not Communists there.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Well now, that led up to your becoming a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Adams. It did. They passed cards around that night, and I
signed an application.
Mr. TA^^NNER. What year was that?
Mrs. Adams. 1937 or 1936. It was 1936 or 1937, it seems.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you then assigned to a special group or a
group of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Adams. Well, I was assigned originally to quite a mixed group,
all kinds of studio workers.
Mr. Tavenner. How many people were in the group ?
Mrs. Adams. Goodness, that first group must have had about 40
or 60 people in it. I don't know what the reason was.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of the leaders in that
group ?
Mrs. Adams. In that particular group ? I only attended two meet-
ings of that group and it broke up.
Mr. Tavenner. The group was broken up into smaller units?
Mrs. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And is that the time then that you were assigned
to a group of people who were interested in very much the same things
as you w^ere interested in?
Mrs. Adams. That's right.
Mr. Tavenner. How many were in that group ?
Mrs. Adams. A handful. About 10 or so, I should think.
Mr. Ta\t.nner. Who were they?
Mrs. Adams. Well, I don't remember all of them. In the first
place, nobody used their right names.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of those who you do
remember ?
Mrs. Adams. I do remember one, because he took me to all the meet-
ings.
Mr. Tavenner. What was his name?
Mrs. Adams. Well, he was a set designer, and his name was Frank
Drdlik.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the last name, please?
Mrs. Adams. D-r-d-1-i-k.
Mr. Tavenner. And the first name was
Mrs. Adams. Frank.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 477
Mr. Tavenner. Can you identify him a little further as to what his
occupation was?
Mrs. Adams. He was a set designer.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand now. I didn't hear that. Can you
give us the names of others ?
Mrs. Adams. The only other one that I can recall is Ed Gilbert.
Mr. Tavenner. I am sorry, I could not hear.
Mrs. Adams. Gilbert.
Mr. Tavenner. Ed Gilbert?
Mrs. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us more of his occupation or what his
particular
Mrs. Adams. He had the same occupation as the other one.
Mr. Tavenner. And these were back lot workers, as they are usually
called?
Mrs. Adams. Yes. They had no prestige at all.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you continue, please, and give us the names of
others ?
Mrs. Adams. Those are the only two that I recall, sir. And the
reason I remember those is because the set designers helped us with
our organization.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain in that particular group ?
Mrs. Adams. It changed from time to time. People were in and
out. I believe it was about 2 years or so.
Mr. Tavenner. Then what group were you assigned to?
Mrs. Adams. I had this all written down and I left it at home.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, if you are uncertain at this time
Mrs. Adams. I am. I don't really remember. You know, the
groups changed. I don't know whether it was this same group with
different people in it, or what.
Mr. Tavenner, You have not talked to any member of the commit-
tee or any employee of the committee at all, have you, about your
testimony ?
Mrs. Adams. No, I haven't.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I want to compliment you on the decision
that you made.
Mrs. Adams. It was very hard to do.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand that, and appreciate it fully. And
I am quite pleased that you have taken the position you have.
I think I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. I have no questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. No questions. ^
Mr. Velde. Mr. Walter.
Mr. Walter. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. I want to join in complimenting you as a mother of
two
Mrs. Adams. Tliree.
Mr. Doyle. Three California-born children. I want to compli-
ment you very sincerely in making this move. I am a member of the
bar myself, but I noticed you made the statement, "I have no counsel.
I would rather be on my own."
478 COJ^ilMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
INIrs. Adams. I didn't want anyone to be responsible for anything
I had to say.
Mr. Doyle. Have you any suggestion to make to this committee in
the field of possible consideration of legislation dealing with the Com-
munist conspiracy ? I can see you have thought a good deal of your
own position, you have analyzed it and made up your own mind.
Mrs. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. You went into the party in 1936 and 1937. I think
according to your own testimony you got out. Did it ever come to
you to consider what the legal situation was with reference to the
Congress of the United States and the Communist Party in the United
States ? Have you given that any thought at all ?
Mrs. Adams. I haven't thought about the Communist Party since
I quit.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier.
Mr. Frazier. Thank you very much, Mrs. Adams, for your assistance
in the matter.
That is all.
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask another question? I have not interro-
gated you here as fully as I would like to, and I would like to ask
you whether you will cooperate with the committee in talking further
to an investigator who will be assigned for that purpose?
Mrs. Adams. I will do anything I can.
Mr. Tavenner. Thank you very much.
Mr. Velde. Just a minute. The Chair would like to join with my
colleagues in expressing our appreciation for your testimony. I
regret I was unable to be here to hear all of it. We want to thank
you for cooperating and assisting our investigators in the future.
Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. I think you have expressed what we feel. We thank
3'ou very much.
Mr. Velde. Is there any reason why this witness should not be
excused ?
Mr. Tavenner. No ; except for the request I made.
Mr. Velde. The witness is excused. Do you have another witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Mr. Lazarus.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give to the committee,
do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Lazarus. I do.
TESTIMONY OF SIMON M. LAZARUS, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, BEN MARGOLIS
Mr. Tavenner. Your name, please, sir.
Mr. Lazarus. Simon M. Lazarus.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes : I am.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record?
Mr. Margolis. Ben Margolis.
Mr. Ta\t5NNer. When and where were you born, please, sir?
Mr. Lazarus. I was born in Russia on April 19, 1894.
I
I
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 479
Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to the United States?
Mr. Lazarus. In the early part of 1914.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you naturalized and where ?
Mr. Lazarus. I was naturalized in New York City on May 5, 1924.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Lazarus. In Monrovia, Calif. It is a suburb of Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived there ?
]\Ir. Lazarus. About 7 months.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that time, where did you reside ?
Mr. Lazarus. I resided in Hollywood and Beverly Hills, San
Fernando Valley.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to California ?
Mr. Lazarus. In 1925.
Mr. Tavenner. You have lived here continuously since that time ?
Mr. Lazarus. That is correct, with the exception of some short
periods.
Mr. Ta\^nner. What is your occupation, please, sir?
Mr. Lazarus. I am an exhibitor, a motion-picture exhibitor.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in that business?
Mr. Lazarus. Since 1917, 36 years ; approximately 36 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you also been engaged in the production side
of the motion-picture business?
Mr. Lazarus. I don't know how to answer this question. May I
answer it in my own way, so I will explain to you what my position
was as an exhibitor, first ? As far as production, I was not a producer.
I have undertaken a production about a year an a half ago. Is that
what you are referring to?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. I want to know how long you have been
engaged in the production business.
Mr. Lazarus. About a year and a half ago, maybe ; not quite 2 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you engaged in that business as an individual
or in a corporate way?
Mr. Lazarus. In a corporate way.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the name of your company ?
Mr. Lazarus. Independent Productions Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you one of its principal officers ?
Mr. Lazarus. I was the president of that corporation.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Are you president of the corporation now?*
Mr. Lazarus. No, I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you cease to be its president ?
Mr. Lazarus. On March 19, 1953.
INIr. Ta\t3nner. How long a period of time were you the president
of that company ?
Mr. Lazarus. Since its inception.
Mr. Ta\trnner. Who is its president now?
Mr. Lazarus. I do not know.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a stockholder of the corporation?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes, sir.
Mr. TA^^:NNER. Are you a director of the corporation?
Mr. Lazarus. Not now.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Wlien did you cease to be a director ?
Mr. Lazarus. On the same day of March, the 19th, 1953.
480 COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS AXGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to March 19, 1953, what was the extent of
your financial interest in the corporation?
Mr. Lazarus. $5,000.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the total amount of issued and outstand-
in<5 capital stock at that time?
Mr. Lazarus. Only $5,000.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you Avere the sole owner of the corporation?
Mr. Lazarus. Of this $5,000 of the stock.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. That being all the stocTs and you being the
holder of all of it
Mr. Lazarus. That is correct.
Mr. Ta\t3nner. You were the sole owner of the corporation ?
Mr. Lazarus. Mv. Tavenner, I really don't know the legal end of
that
Mr. Ta\^nner. There may have been qualifying shares in the names
of other persons, in order to make up the necessary number of directors
under the California law,
Mr. Lazarus. Not that I know of.
Mr. Tavenner. There were no other stockholdei-s ?
Mr. Lazarus. There were no other stockholders, so far as I know.
As far as I remember — as far as I know.
Mr. Tavenner. Then to be certain, you were the sole owner of the
corporation ?
Mr. Lazarus. That is correct. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Of the stock of the corporation ?
Mr. Lazarus. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. How many pictures had your corporation produced
before you resigned or left the position of president?
Mr. Lazarus. They were about finishing a picture. They were
about to finish one production.
Mr. Tavenner. One production. What was that picture ?
Mr. Lazarus. The title, the working title of that picture was Salt
of the Earth.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you produced any other picture or worked in
the production of any other pictures besides that one ?
(At this point Mv. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. We did not produce any other picture besides this
one.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you contracted for any picture other than that
one ^
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. jSLargolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. There Avere agreements made for one other picture.
Some oral agreement was made about another picture that we had in
mind to make. However, no other pictures were made by the corpora-
tion.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that agreement made for the production
of another picture ?
Mr. Lazarus. That must have been about a year ago we were con-
templating to make that picture.
Mv. Tavenner. Did you abandon the production of the other pic-
ture that you have reference to?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes, we did.
Mr. Tavenner. This is a California corporation, is it not?
Mr. Lazari'^s. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 481
Mr. Tavenner. Do you still own the $5,000 of stock in the
corporation ?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes, sir.
INIr. Tavenner. But as a stockholder you do not knoAv who its presi-
dent now is ?
Mr. Lazarus. At the present time I don't know.
Mr. Ta\T5nner. Who is the secretary of the corporation?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred w4th Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. Mr. Tavenner, to answer this question pertaining to
names that you will ask me from now on in, of any names, I will ask
the privileoe of refusing to answer. I have a slight knowledge of the
workings of this committee
Mr. Taatenner. Let me ask you a question at this point. Do you
have the custody of the records of the corporation, or are the records
in the custody of its secretary?
Mr. Lazarus. I do not have it with me.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand that.
Mr. Lazarus. I do not have the records
Mr. Tavenner. Are the records subject to your control ?
Mr. Lazarus. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Then I will have to ask that you tell us who the
secretary of the corporation is.
Mr. Lazarus. I will have to answer you that I do not desire to name
names before this committee. As I said, I have sat here the last few
days and I have seen with my ow^n eyes something that was a little
bit repulsive to me
Mr. Tavenner. Your answer is not responsive to my question.
Mr. Lazarus. I am sorry, Mr. Tavenner. This is absolutely my
answer. It has to be, because I have drawn certain conclusions from
the meeting, from this forum, wdiich makes me do things that I prob-
ably did not think of before. I think I have a perfect right to explain
to you why I don't want to mention any names. And I am doing that.
I am trying to tell you that I don't want to mention any names because
this committee is only interested in naming names to blacklist these
people.
Mr. Velde. JNIr. Lazarus, the committee will listen to any reasons
you have based upon logical, legal grounds for your refusal to answer.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Velde. But we don't care to listen to any lecture or any volun-
tary statements like you have been making. I direct you to answer the
question that was asked of you by counsel. If you don't remember it,
I will ask him to rephrase it or have the reporter read it to you.
Mr. Lazarus. Mr. Velde, I haven't given you the reasons yet, all the
reasons. I think I am entitled to have the privilege of addressing to
you, as much as the other witnesses did. And I think you have left
witnesses here talking to you for hours, with repeats. However, they
did, and you let them, while I want to explain my reasons and you
refuse.
Mr. Velde. If you will answer the question, Mr. Lazarus, we would
probably give you the privilege of talking to us.
Mr. Lazarus. Mr. Velde, I am explaining to you why I don't w^ant
to answer this question. I have a perfect right to explain the reasons.
31747— 53— pt. 2 4
482 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
I want the American people to know, I am in front of television and
I am in front of radio. I want them to know my reasons.
Mr. Doyle. I feel as a member of this committee, I want to sin-
cerely counter your charge that this committee is interested in black-
listing people. That is absolutely false. As a member of this com-
mittee, I want you to understand that I am not interested in anyone
being blacklisted unless they are subversive and intend to unlawfully
overthrow my Government.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Doyle. Those are the kind of people we are trying to discover.
Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mr. Lazarus. Noav, Mr. Congressman, I have been a businessman
for 37 years. I have been a good citizen in this community for 37 years.
I have not committed any crimes. I have made nothing but friends.
Mr. Doyle. We don't say you have committed any crimes, but I am
asking you if you are a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mr. Lazarus. Let me answer you the way I feel like answering.
I have answered this question in front of other forums all over the
country. I have made statements all over the country about my
political affiliations.
However, I refuse to make my political affiliations in front of you,
to tell you, for a reason, and this is the reason, my friend : If I tell
you what you want me to tell you — and I have to tell the truth, and
I would be a very nice fellow, I would not be called any names, because
I am not the kind of fellow that you think I am.
However, if I say it in front of this audience today, and tomorrow
and 6 months from now, and a year from now, somebody would drag
me into court and state that I have perjured myself, and then I have
to go to court and I have to be dragged in. And at my age. Con-
gressman, I don't think I should do that, that you should ask me to
do that.
Mr. Doyle. We are not asking you to perjure yourself. We are
asking you to tell the truth.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that counsel propound his
question again so that we may get back to that.
Mr. Lazarus. By the way
Mr. Clardy. Just a moment, sir. I made a request of the chairman.
Mr. Velde. Will counsel propound his last question ?
Mr. Tavenner. The question, Mr. Lazarus, is this : Will you please
advise the committee as to who the secretary of your corporation is
at the present time?
Mr. Lazarus. I didn't hear the question.
Mr. Tavenxer. Will you please advise the committee of the name
of the secretary of your corporation, that is, the corporation of which
you are the sole stockholder?
Mr. Jackson. The Inde])endent Productions Corp.
Mr. Ta\^nner. The Independent Productions Corp. at the present
time.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. Mr. Tavenner, I refuse to answer this on the grounds
that I propounded to you before, and I refuse it relying on the Con-
stitution of the United States, on the first amendment, and all of
the amendments, especially the fifth amendment.
COMMXTNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 483
Mr. Clardy. May I propound a question at this juncture?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Do you know the name of the secretary of the
corporation ?
Mr. Lazarus. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Clardy. Do you know the names of the directors of your
corporation ?
Mr. Lazarus. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Clardy. Have there been any stockholders', or directors' meet-
ings since or even prior to the March date that you mentioned a few
moments ago?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. Before I answer your question, I would like to make
clear Mr. Doyle's question before. I want to answer it in the same
manner as I answered the other question, namely, that I am abso-
lutely relying on the Constitution of the United States and on the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Clardy. You mean you are refusing to answer on those grounds ?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes, sir; on those grounds.
Mr. Clardy. Would it be fair to say, then, that any question we
might ask you concerning the personnel connected with the corpora-
tion will be answered in the same way? That will shorten it up.
Mr. Lazarus. Concerning the personnel, yes, sir ; yes, sir. I would
like to talk to you anything you want about my personal affair in the
corporation, of which I amvery proud. Now, if you desire to talk
to me about the corporation from my standpoint, from my under-
standing, I will gladly answer your every question. But I will not
mention any names.
Mr. Walter. How did you become president of the corporation?
Mr. Lazarus. I became president of the corporation a year and a
half or 2 years ago when I decided to go into the business of pro-
ducing pictures.
Mr. Walter. How did you become president?
Mr. Lazarus. I became president because I was the initiator of the
thing, I was the first investor in tliis corporation, and therefore I
became the president.
Mr. Walter. That isn't an answer to my question. Wlio nominated
you for president?
Mr. Lazarus. The original directors.
Mr. Wai,ter. Who were they ?
Mr. Lazarus. I can't mention any names.
Mr. Walter. Well now, if you had all of the stock, how could there
have been otlier directors ?
Mr, Lazarus. Yes, we did. Originally, the corporation, I
imagine
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. M}'- attorney tells me that the laws of California do
not require a stockholder to be a director, or a director to be a stock-
holder.
Mr. Walter. I don't know anything about the laws of California.
I am assuming that that is correct.
Who were the incorporators of this company ?
Mr. Lazarus. I don't remember their names, and, as I said, I am not
going to give you out any names
484 COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Walter. There must have been three people.
Mr. Lazarus. There were four.
Mr. Wal'i-er. Four?
Mr. Lazarus. As far as I can remember.
Ml'. Walter. You were one ?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes, and three others.
Mr. Walter. And this group liad a meeting at which you were
elected president {
Mr, Lazarus. 1 imagine that was the case ; yes.
Mr. Doyle. How many shares of stock — I am not asking you the
names now of any of them — how many shares of stock did the other
incorporators have in the articles of incorporation ?
Mr. Lazarus. I don't think they had any.
Mr. Doyle. In other words
Mr. Lazarus. I was the sole stockholder.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, to whom did you submit your resignation as
president ?
Mr. Lazarus. To people that are interested in the corporation.
Mr. Clardy. And who were they ?
Mr. Laz^vrus. Mr. Congressman, I refuse to answer you on the
same grounds. As I said before, I am not going to mention any
names.
Mr. Doyle. I will ask you this question. I am not asking you any
names, in view of the fact that you are standing on the fifth amendment
and others
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Doyle. You said you had not been president since 8 days ago.
Was that after or before you were served with a subpena to come to
this court?
Mr. Lazarus. It was after.
Mr. Doyle. How many days after, about?
Mr. Lazarus. About 2 weeks after.
Mr. Doyle. Now, when you ceased to be president of this corpora-
tion, if you did actually as a matter of law, did you transfer all of
your stock to other people?
Mr. Lazarus. I did not.
Mr. Doyle. Did you transfer iuiy of it to other people?
Mr. Lazarus. I did not.
(At this i)oint Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Doyle. How nuich stock, if yoi^i know — I beg your pardon.
Mr. Lazarus. By the way, I want to correct myself to you, Mr.
Doyle, to the previous questions that you have asked me. I want to
claim the same privileges of refusing to answer you on the same
giounds as I mentioned before, namely, the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. You understand that we recognize it is perfectly legal
for any person to claim the constitutional protection that you got
wlien you became an America]i citizen in New York in 1924.
Mr. Lazarus. I understand that aliens also have the same right.
Mr. Doyle. That is one difference between our country. and some
other countries.
Mv. Lazarus. Wonderful. That is why I am here.
Mr. Doyle. May I just ask this one question? As I understand it,
8 days ago or thereabouts you claim you ceased to be president of this
California corporation, but you have testified you did not transfer
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 485
any of your stock, $5,000 worth, which you originally owned, and
which you still own, and as far as you know, there are no other stock-
holders ?
Mr. Lazarus. That is correct.
Mr. Walter. You resigned as president, as I understand it ?
Mr. Lazarus. That is correct.
Mr. Walter. What did you do — mail the resignation to yourself?
Mr. Lazarus. I mailed the resignation to the people that were in-
terested in the corporation.
Mr. Walter. Where is the office of the corporation?
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to tell you, Mr. Walter, on the same grounds.
Mr. Jackson. Do you mean, sir, that to disclose the office location
of a corporation incorporated under the laws of the State of California
would be incriminating?
Mr. Lazarus. I don't know about that.
Mr. Jackson. Well, I can assure you it would not be incriminating ;
that it is obviously a misuse and an abuse of the constitutional
privilege.
Mr. Clardt. In that connection I would like to slightly amend the
statement that my colleague, Mr. Doyle, made. You have the right to
rely upon the fifth amendment, but only in the event that it is not a
frivolous objection. It must be one that is founded upon something
solid and substantial, as you may discover, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Pursuing this, may I just ask one question, Mr.
Chairman ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Lazarus — I am sorry.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Lazarus, to produce the picture Salt of the Earth
did you or the corporation borrow any money ?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Were you given any
ISIr. Lazarus. We did borrow money.
Mr. Scherer. Did you receive any money, directly or indirectly,
from the Communist Party to finance the "Salt of the Earth" ?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. I want to say to you this much, Mr. Congressman:
This was a business venture, and you know that for a business ven-
ture you don't go to any Communist Party or any other party to get
money. This was a pure and simple business venture.
]Mr. Scherer. I understand that, but I asked you, Did you receive
any money or anything of value, directly or indirectly, from the
Communist Party to finance it ?
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
mentioned.
Mr. Scherer. Did you receive any compensation, directly or indi-
rectly, from the Russian Government or ai^y agency of the Russian
Government to promote this picture?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus confererd with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. My attorney tells me that I should answer this ques-
tion, because this is so much nonsense and so much — I don't know,
I don't want to use the word that I have in my mouth. This is abso-
lutely ridiculous. I am not an agent of any government, any Russian
Goveriunent, or any other government, and I am not an agent of any
486 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
other parties, and I have not received any moneys from anybody,
from any parties of any sort. I liave received moneys from people.
Mr. SciiERER. Will yon tell us from whom you received money?
Mr. Lazarus. From a lot of people, and I will not mention their
names.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you know whether these people from whom you
received money-
Mr. Lazarus. Pardon me. My attorney tells me that I must men-
tion why do I refuse to answer you this question, or refuse to give
you names.
]Mr. ScHERER. Go ahead.
Mr. Lazarus. Because I am relying upon the first and the fifth
amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. Were any of these parties from whom you got money
members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lazarus. I was not interested to inquire their politics, and I
don't know whether they are or they are not.
Mr. ScHERER. You don't know whether they were or were not ?
Mr. Lazarus. That's right.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you receive this money to finance this picture
from individuals or from financial institutions, such as banks or
insurance companies ?
JNIr. Lazarus. From individuals
Mr. ScHERER. Just from individuals?
Mr. Lazarus. That's right.
Mr. Scherer. Will you tell us the names of those individuals?
Mr. Lazvrus. Mr. Congressman, I said before I will not mention
any names, and I am claiming the same privileges of the first and
the fifth amendments.
Mr. Jackson. Did you receive any auxiliary financing for the pic-
ture from the Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers Union ?
(At this point Mr, Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. We did not receive any money from the Mine, Mill
and Smelter Workers.
Mr. Jackson. At no time were any funds deposited
Mr. Lazarus. To my knowledge.
Mr. Scherer. Would you mind telling us what the total amount of
your borrowings were for the production of this picture ?
Mr. Lazarus. Approximately $90,000.
Mr. Scherer. How much ?
Mr. Lazarus. $90,000.
Mr. Jackson. Was mone}^ borrowed from any officials of the Mine,
Mill and Smelter Workers Union as distinguished from the union
itself?
Mr. Lazarus. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Doyle. INIay I ask this question, Mr. Chairman ?
When you say that a large number of people put money into this
venture, did they loan you or the corporation their investment in the
corporation or is this venture with you in the corporation represented
by your stocldiol dings in the corporation? Do you understand the
question ?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. Yes ; I understand.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 487
Mr. DoTLE. In other words, are you the trustee of their investment
in the corporation, or how did they put their money into the corpora-
tion ? Again I am not asking you the names, in view of your answer
previously.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. They loaned money to the corporation and we gave
them promissory notes.
]Slr. Doyle. May I ask you this question ? No doubt you had some
well-qualified writer who wrote the script for Salt of the Earth.
Will you tell us, please, the name of the scriptwriter who wrote the
Salt of the Earth?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. Mr. Doyle, mentioning names, I told you I am not
going to mention any names in front of this committee. I will claim
the privileges of all the amendments.
Mr. Doyle. About when will the production Salt of the Earth be
ready for exhibition ; about how long from now ?
Mr. Lazarus. I hope very shortly.
Mr. Doyle. Is that 1 month or a year ?
Mr. Lazarus. I would say in about 2 months or 10 weeks.
Mr. Doyle. About how large a cast do you have in the production
Salt of the Earth ? How many people ; about how many people ?
Mr. Lazarus. I don't remember how many. There are quite a few
people. A lot of people, as a matter of fact, are involved in some
of the scenes of this picture.
]\Ir. Doyle. About 50 or 500 people ?
Mr. Lazarus. I imagine — I don't know. I wasn't there at the time
when the picture was taken. I read the script; I know the story;
I have discussed the story with people, and I really don't know how
many people, Mr. Doyle ; quite a few.
Mr. Doyle. Where was the picture taken ?
Mr. Lazarus. The picture, most of it
(At this point INIr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
]\Ir. Lazarus. I understand that the picture was taken at Silver
City, N. Mex. I was not there.
Mr. Velde. Are there any further questions of this witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Mr. Lazarus, I have before me the Febru-
ary 26, 1953, issue of Citizens-News, Hollywood, Calif., which carries
an article under the dateline of El Paso, Tex. In the closing para-
graph this language appears :
Simon Lazarus, theater owner in Monrovia, Calif., denied earlier this week
his corporation is making the picture. "It happens some of the people working
on the picture have been connected with our corporation," he said. "It is being
entirely financed by the United Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers' Union."
*
Were you correctly quoted?
Mr. Lazarus. That was absolutely incorrect.
Mr. Tavenner. Then, as a matter of fact, your corporation was
financing the production of the picture and not the United Mine, Mill
and Smelter Workers' Union.
Mr. Lazarus. That is correct.
Mr. TA^^3NNER. I hand you what purports to be a photostatic copy
of a cashier's check, payable to the International Union of Mine, Mill
and Smelter Workers special motion-picture account in the amount
of $50,000.
488 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
(At tliis point Afr. Lnzanis conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Tavenxek. I will ask you if you can identify it as a cashier's
check purchased by your corporation and delivered at the direction
of your corporation to the payee.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
jVIr. Lazarus. That is not my check.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand. It is a cashier's check. I am asking
you to see if you can identify it as one purchased by your corporation.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. INIarfrolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. Now, this is not my check. I know my signature.
This is a cashier's check. I made out a regular check from our check-
book and it was — they called me on the phone and I told the bank to
make out a cashier's check, to send it to the international union special
account.
Mr. Tavenner. So a check for $50,000 was sent?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavt:nner. In accordance with your instructions ?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. May the check be marked as "Lazarus' Exhibit No.
1" for identification only?
(The document referred to was marked "Lazarus' Exhibit No. 1"
for identification.)
Mr. Doyle. For further identification, I have this photostat in my
hand now, dated December 15, 1952
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Doyle. Which the witness testified about. Now, I notice an
endorsement on the endorsement page thereof of "International Union
of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers' Special Motion Picture Account,"
signed "Paul Jarrico." Isn't that the name of someone who has been
named before this committee, Paul Jarrico ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, there has been testimony by a number of
witnesses identifying him, at least six, I think, as having been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party.
Mr. Jackson. Is it also true that the Mine, Mill and Smelter Work-
ers in question was expelled by the CIO several years ago for Com-
munist domination?
Mr. Tavenner. That is correct. I hand the witness an additional
check, and ask it be marked as "Lazarus' Exhibit No. 2" for identifica-
tion only.
(The document referred to was marked "Lazarus' Exhibit No. 2"
for identification.)
Mr. Tavenner. It is a check bearing date of January 16 — or, rather,
it is a photostatic copy of a check dated January 16, 1953
^At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolin.)
Mr. Tavenner (continuing). On the Bank of America National
Trust and Savings Association, Tarzana branch, Tarzana, Calif.,
payable to the order of Paul Jarrico, in the sum of $30,000, and signed
"Independent Productions Corp., by S. M. Lazarus, president" and
by "Kathleen Sims, secretary," and on the back of which appears an
endorsement in the name of Paul Jarrico.
Will you examine the check and state whether or not you can iden-
tify that as a check issued by that corporation?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes, sir.
COIVOIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 489
Mr. Tavenner. Was Miss Sims the secretary of your corporation at
that time, as stated on the check?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear my question ?
Mr. Lazarus. What was it, sir?
Mr. Tavenner. I said would you look at the signature, again look
at the exhibit No. 2 for identification, and state whether immediately
under your signature as president there appears the name of the sec-
retary of your corporation, as of January 16, 1953 ? Under the name
of "Independent Productions Corp." appears the name of "S. M.
Lazarus," as president, "by Kathleen Sims, secretary."
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Tavenner. Was Kathleen Sims secretary to your corporation
at that time ?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. I would
like to explain to you gentlemen why. Again, I think it is very im-
portant, why I refuse to answer on all of the reasons I previously
mentioned, all the — relying upon the Constitution of the United
States, of all the amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that check of $30,000 charged to the account
of your corporation at the bank ?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. That is correct. By the way, I would like to explain
to you gentlemen about this special account of the Mine, Mill and
Smelter Workers' Union. We made out a special account to these
people, and they in turn handled the accounts of our corporation.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you now
Mr. Doyle. In other words, they were your agents for the corpora-
tion, for your corporation?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. They handled the money, Mr. Doyle. I don't know
whether they were the actual agents of ours. They handled the
money.
Mr. Doyle. That may be a legal conclusion, I will grant.
I will ask you whether or not there is a written agreement in exist-
ence between your corporation, that is, the Independent Productions
Corp., made during the time you were president, and this Mine, Mill
and Smelter organization, whereby they agred to handle these funds
for your corporation, for the purpose of paying the expenses of this
procluction Salt of the Earth?
Mr. Lazarus. I think it was ; it was an agreement.
Mr. Doyle. Under that agreement were they to share in any
profits ?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. The agreement does not provide for sharing of the
profits.
Mr. Scherer. "VVliere is that agreement now ?
Mr. Lazarus. I have no idea.
Mr. Doyle. If that agreement does not provide-
]\Ir. Lazarus. I don't know where all the papers are. I imagine
Mr. Scherer. Where are all the papers?
Mr. Lazarus. With somebody in the corporation, that is interested.
490 COMlVrUNIST activities in the LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Sgtierkr. You are sayino; now you don't lcno^Y who that
person is?
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer you, this question, because it is
])ertaining to names, and I am not going to name names.
Mr. SciTF.KER. I didn't ask you to name names. I said j^ou don't
know who tliat person is?
(At this point, Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. ScpiERER. Did I understand that is your testimony?
Mr. IjAzarus. I don't know who has the papers. I know wlio I
turned the papers over to. I don't Ivuow who has llie i)a])ers riglit now.
Mr. SciiERER. Whom did you turn them over to i
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer you.
Mr. ScHERER. On the ground your answer might tend to incriminate
you ?
Mr. Lazarus, On the ground of the fifth amendment, where any
person cannot be forced to witness against himself. On the entire 5th
amendment, as well as the 1st and the 9th and the 10th.
Mr. Scherer. When was the last time you saw the papers of the
corporation, Mr. Lazarus?
Mr. Lazarus. Some of the papers I saw on March 19. That is the
last time I saw them.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, may I ask this question : You said a
moment ago, Mr. Lazarus, that the agreement did not provide for any
sharing of the profits, if there were any, between your corporation and
the Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers organization.
Mr. Lazarus. I think that is substantially correct.
Mr. Doyle. Even though it wasn't in writing, was there an oral
agreement or any auxiliary memorandum or agreement whereby they
were to share in the profits?
(At this point, Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. I don't know the details. I have not met with the
Mine, Mill, and Smelter [Workers] people personally. I don't know
anything about it, what agreements were made, if any.
Mr. Scherer. Was it a gift from the union ?
^At this point, Mr. Lazanis conferred with Mr. Margolis )
Mr. Lazarus. What are you talking about? What kind of a gift
are you talking about, Mr. Congressman?
Mr. Scherer. Just a gift.
Mr. Lazarus. I didn't receive any gift from anybody.
Mr. Scherer. Did the corporation receive any gift?
Mr. Lazarus. I don't think so, not so far as I know ; while I was the
president, definitely, I did not receive any gifts.
Mr. Jackson. What was the financial arranirement as between the
corporation and the Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers Union for the
production of the picture?
(At this point, ISIr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. ^Ir. Jacksou, I wasn't there and I did not make the
agreement with the people. I don't know Avhat agreement — which way
they were supposed to handle the money. I don't know anything about
It. I only know I was interested in seeing the picture made for a
certain amount of money.
Mr. Doyle. May I just interpose this question— I want to ask
the witness in all sincerity — a minute ago you said the agreement did
not provide for the sharing of profits. If you don't know what the
COMMUNIST ACTWITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 491
agreement was, how do you know it didn't provide for the sharing
of profits?
Mr. Lazarus. As I stated before, I signed a written agi-eement
with the Mine, Mill, and Smelter Workers, and in that agreement there
was no sharing of profits of any sort.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus confererd with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. ScHERER. Can you give us the terms of that agreement, the
substance ?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. I really don't know the details of the agreement. I
know that the whole thing was, the main and important issue was
they were supposed to be the sponsors of this picture.
Mr. ScHERER. Were they to contribute any money ?
Mr. Lazarus. Not as I know.
Mr. Sciierer. Did they contribute any money ?
Mr. Lazarus. Not as I know, Mr. Congressman. I can't remember
your name.
Mr. Scherer. Are those all of the terms of the agreement? Wasn't
it a rather lengthy agreement?
Mr. Lazarus. That is all the terms as far as I can remember. ,
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Scherer. "Wlien, about, was that agreement signed ?
(At this point Mr, Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. I really don't remember. It must have been quite
a few months ago ; must have been 4, 5, or 6 months ago.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you finished?
Mr. Scherer. Right now, Mr. Tavenner. I may have a couple of
questions later.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lazarus, do you recall the $50,000 check that
was delivered, that is, exhibit No. 1 for identification, which I handed
you, the cashier's check for $50,000 ?
Mr. Lazarus. I don't remember the details of the delivery of that
check.
Mr. Tavenner. Well then, let me hand you a photostatic copy, or,
copies of two letters of December 15, and I ask these be marked for
identification as "Lazarus' Exhibits 3 and 4" for identification only.
(The documents referred to were marked "Lazarus' Exhibits Nos.
3 and 4" for identification.)
Mr. Tavenner. I will ask you to read the first letter.
Mr. Lazarus. Shall I read you the letter of the date of December
15
Mr. Tavenner. Read the one you can determine from the context
was written first. I might point out to you in the one letter you
failed to mention the amount.
Mr. Lazarus. These are my letters. I wrote the letters, I don't
see any reason in the world why you gentlemen can't read them. This
is my letter. I wrote them.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Now, do they refresh your recollection as to what
occurred ?
Mr. Lazarus. They do not any more.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, they were only dated December 15, 1952.
Mr. Lazarus. They do refresh with reference to the money to be
paid to — that is, the "Kindly give check to bearer"
492 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. Does it also refresh your recollection
as to whom the check was delivered to ?
Mr, Lazarus. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was it ?
Mr. Lazarus. You see it for yourself. I am not going to state names,
mention any names.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you read the paragraph in the letter dealing
with that matter?
Mr. Lazarus. You can read it yourself, Mr. Tavenner. Please do so.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well. "We are withdrawing the time deposit
open account of the Independent Productions Corp. Kindly give
check to bearer, Mr. Paul Jarrico."
You say that ref resh'es your recollection ?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. I have already answered it, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Then there is a receipt at the bottom of
the letter in the following language, "Received CC 4291075 — " which
is the number of the cashier's check handed you, as Lazarus' exhibit
No. 1 for identification, and signed "Paul Jarrico."
Will you look at the paper again and state whether or not that is the
signature of Paul Jarrico, if you are acquainted with his signature?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. I am refusing to answer with respect to the name on
the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you what purports to be a photostatic copy
of a signature card of the Bank of America at Tarzana. Will you
examine it, please, and state whether or not the signatures that
appear there are yours as president and Kathleen Sims as secretary?
I ask that the document be marked "Lazarus' Exhibit No. 5" for
identification.
(The document referred to was marked "Lazarus' Exhibit No. 5"
for identification.)
Mr. Lazarus. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Counsel, did you get from the witness an acknowledg-
ment that the two letters were received by him?
Mr. Tavenner. He stated that they were his letters. They were
letters by his corporation.
Mr. Clardy. I should have put it that way.
Mr. Tavenner. Directed to the bank.
Mr. Clardy. There is no doubt in the record those letters did
emanate from that source.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Lazarus. No doubt.
Mr. Clardy. I wish you would make sure of that, for a reason I
have in mind and which you probably understand.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lazarus, will you examine again the Lazarus
exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 and state whether or not they are photostatic
copies of letters
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Tavenner. Composed and signed by you ?
Mr. Lazarus. I have already answered that, Mr. Tavenner.
i
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 493
Mr. Tavenner. I think you have. In order that we may be
certain
Mr. Clardt. What is your answer ?
Mr. Lazarus. My answer is they are my letters and I wrote them.
Mr. Clardy. In view of that, do you still refuse to answer the ques-
tions concerning the identity of Mr. Lazarus or his signature?
Mr. Lazarus. Mr. Lazarus I have identified, very much so.
Mr. Clardy. Jarrico, I mean.
Mr. Lazarus. Let me tell you something. These people are very
nice people. I am proud to associate with them, notwithstanding the
fact you have left me
Mr. Clardy. You have identified the letters, you acknowledge their
authorship. Do you still refuse to answer the other questions con-
cerning the two paragraphs read to you and the persons named
therein ?
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point, 4:40 p. m.).
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
_ Mr. Lazarus. I have stated before, and I have answered this ques-
tion quite a few times. I still say I am not going to mention the name.
Mr. Clardy. I want to know if you continue to persist in y6ur re-
fusal to answer the questions regarding the identity of the person in
the letter.
Mr. Lazarus. I state to you these are my letters. I wrote them. The
names are in there. I am not going to mention them to you. You
can read them yourself.
Mr. Claedy. You are not answering my question concerning that
name ?
Mr. Lazarus. No.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson reentered the hearing room at
this point, 4 : 43 p. m.)
Mr. Clardy. That is all.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. I have no questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Walter.
Mr. Walter. No.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. I think I only have a couple of questions.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Lazarus, I am assuming in asking you this ques-
tion that you, apparently being the only stockholder to put any money
into the corporation, that you were familiar with the script which
was going to be used in the production of this play.
Now, I am not asking you again who wrote the sci4pt, because it
apparently would be useless.
Mr. Lazarus. Yes. I think Mr. Doyle, you know the name. You
know the name, why do you ask me?
Mr. Doyle. Thanks for giving me credit for knowing everything.
Mr. Lazarus. I read the book. I read the script. I was very much
in love with the script.
Mr. Doyle. Good. Were you familiar also with the names of any
of the chief participants to be in the cast? Don't misunderstand me.
I am not asking you nor I am not going to ask you the names of any
494 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
of the members of the cast. But wlien your corporation made this
deal with the Mine, Mill & Smelter Workers outfit, were you then
familiar with, or prior thereto were you familiar with the names of
any or all of the leadiuf^ figures to be in the cast?
JMr. Lazarus. I was not familiar with any names of the cast.
Mr. Doyle. All right. Thank you.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier.
]Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel, is there anything more?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir ; I think there is another question.
Mr. Lazarus, I understood you to say in the early part of your
testimony, I believe you said you would not reveal the address of the
office of your corporation. Did I understand you correctly or not?
Mr. Lazarus. I really don't know the address of the corporation
today, what address, if any, it does have. Originally it was my
address. It was the address of my home when I first incorporated.
It was 1250 Beverly Estate Drive, and then when I moved to different
places I have changed the address to where I moved to.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the address of the office in September
of 1961?
Mr. Lazarus. I don't recollect September 1951.
Mr. Tavenner. You don't recollect ?
Mr. Lazarus. I suppose you know it. It is in front of you. Will
you please tell me, ask me the address and I will tell you whether it is
correct or not?
Mr. Tavenner. All right, sir. I will try to refresh your recollec-
tion. I hand you what purports to be photostatic copies of the bank
statement for your corporation covering the period from September
21 of 1951, to January 30, 1952, and ask that they be marked also as
Lazarus' exhibit No. 6 for identification.
(The document referred to was marked "Lazarus' Exhibit No. 6"
for identification.)
Mr. Tavenner. I will ask you to examine the name of the account
and see whether or not the address of the account appears — I mean
the address of the company appears as part of the account.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Tavenner. May the record show that those papers constitute
Lazarus' exhil)it No. 6 for identification only ?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. The address is the attorney's address, the attornej^s
of the corporation address.
Mr. Tavenner. What is that address?
Mr. Lazarus. It is 709, I think, Rives Strong Building, Los
Angeles.
Mr. Taa'enner. Well, was that the address of your corporation?
Mr. Lazarus. No; that was the address of the attorneys.
Mr. Tavenner. Why did you give the bank the address of your
attorney for your account, instead of your own company's address?
Mr. Lazarus. I really don't remember what was the reason at that
particular time.
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. I know that I was at that time in the process of
moving from one place to the other.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 495
Mr. Tavenner. It took quite long to move, from September 1, 1951,
to February 1952.
Mr, Lazarus. I left it there from the first time we opened the
account, we left the address there. We did not use it and the bank
was at that time right across the street from me, the Union Bank,
located on Eighth Street.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Tavenner, I might say this: As a member of the
California bar I know that it is quite the practice where there was a
corporation such as this, owned entirely by one person, it is quite a
usual thing for the official office of the corporation to be the office of
legal counsel. It is not unusual at all.
Air. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Lazarus, I have in my hand a certified copy by
the secretary of state of the State of California of the articles of
incorporation of the Independent Producers Corp. I would like to
have the witness look at this and identify it as the articles of incor-
poration of his corporation.
Mr. Tavenner. I suggest that the photostatic copy be marked Laza-
rus' exhibit No. 7 for iclentification only.
(The document referred to was marked "Lazarus' Exhibit No. 7" for
identification.)
Mr. Lazarus. Mr. Congressman, there are other names on the docu-
ment presented to me, and therefore I will refuse to answer on the
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I haven't asked you about names ; I am merely asking
you whether that is a copy, a certified copy of the articles of incorpora-
tion of your corporation.
Mr. Clardy. Before you answer, turn it over and look at the cer-
tification on the back.
Mr. Scherer. The certification is right on the front.
Mr. Clardy. There is a certification on the back.
Mr. Lazarus. Gentlemen, I think you are not looking for any in-
formation. This information is right in front of you. Why do you
want me to answer this, which is a certified copy of the franchise of
the State of California? Do 3'ou need additional information from
me?
Mr. Scherer. Yes, very much so.
Mr. Lazarus. I am not going to give it to you on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, that is obviously an abuse of the
privilege. I ask that the witness be directed to answer whether or not
that is a copy of the articles of incorporation.
Mr. Velde. Yes, the Chair feels that that is a perfectly legitimate
question and can be answered.
Mr. Jackson. The constitutional amendment can be stretched just
so far.
Mr. Velde. Therefore I direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Margolis. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman?
If he answers that question will it be considered a waiver with re-
spect to any of the names that appear thereon ?
Mr. Clardy. Wliat?
Mr. Margolis. Will it be considered a waiver of his rights with re-
spect to any of the names that appear on the document?
496 COIMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Well, he has to know in order to kiiow whether he can claim the
privilege. If it will not be considered a waiver, he will answer the
question. If it will be considered a waiver, he will not answer the
question.
Mr. Velde. That is a matter for the witness and his counsel to
decide.
Mr. Margolis. We are asking you in order to find out.
Mr. Velde. We will make no statement.
Mr. Margolis. In other words, you are trying to entrap Mr. Laza-
rus, and I won't permit it.
Mr. Velde. That will be stricken as a voluntary statement.
Mr. Doyle. We are not a court.
Mr. Margolis. You act like one.
Mr. Doyle. You don't.
Mr. Margolis. I am not one.
• Mr. Clardy. I believe you directed the witness to answer the ques-
tion, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Lazarus. I stand on my previous answer.
Mr, Velde. That is, you decline to answer?
Mr. Lazarus. Yes, claiming all the amendments.
Mr. Margolis. I want to make the record clear that if the com-
mittee says there is no waiver, I will advise him to answer the
question.
Mr. Scherer. I want to know whether you know Kathleen Sims.
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Sctierer. Now, I want to know whether you know Rose
Kolker — K-o-l-k-e-r.
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. SciiERER. Whether you knew Herbert Ganahl — G-a-n-a-h-1-^
in his lifetime.
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Scherer. And I want to know whether you know Robert Gam-
mon— G-a-m-m-o-n.
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Scherer. Now, let me ask you this further question and then
I am finished : Were they not incorporators with you of this corpora-
tion, namely, the Independent Productions Corp., the application for a
charter for which was signed on August 28, 1951 ?
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Jackson. I should like to read into the record one finding
here.
Mr. Velde. All right, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. From the People v. ShuHz. It is a New York
citation.
Where a witness
Mr. Lazarus. Mr. Jackson, may I ask you
Mr. Jackson. May I complete my statement first ?
Where a witness I'ofuses to answer a question solely because of his desire to
protect others, it was held that he could not avail himself of the constitutional
privilege, and that no person shall be compelled to i;ive evidence against himself
in a criminal case, and that he was properly committed for direct contempt.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 497
If this purpose is for the purpose of protecting othei^, then quite
obviously it is not a matter which falls within the purview of the
intended use of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Lazarus. It is for the purpose of protectino; myself only, and
on all the grounds that I previously stated. I am also interested, Mr.
Congressman, to protect othei's.
Mr. Jackson. Would that incriminate you, to identify the articles
of incorporation of the Inde])endent Productions Corp. filed with the
secretary of state legally under the laws of the State of California;
that would tend to incriminate you if you identified it?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Clardy. Remembering, Witness, that that is a public document
or a copy thereof.
Mr. Margolis. Are you gentlemen finished ?
(At this point Mr. Lazarus conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lazarus. Yes, insofar as it tends to tie me in with other persons,
I am claiming the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. Let me ask you one more question. That docviment
was purported to be signed — what date did I say? It was signed on
the 28th day of August before a notary public named Charles J. Katz,
and sworn to by you. Do you know Charles J. Katz ?
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer on the same ground that I pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Scherer, Did you swear under oath to the statements con-
tained in this document before Charles J. Katz?
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Scherer. Are the people whose signatures appear on the docu-
ment below yours, were they present at the time that you signed it,
and did they swear before the same notary that you did ?
Mr. Lazarus. I refuse to answer on the same gi'ounds.
Mr. Scherer. That is all.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, in order to save time I would like
to say that the photostatic copies of the documents which have been
presented, that were marked for identification only, were obtained
through a subpena duces tecum, and rather than put Mr. Wheeler on
to prove those effects, I would just offer now all of those documents in
evidence, and ask that they be given exhibit numbers as indicated.
Mr. Velde. With that statement the documents will be received in
evidence.
Mr. Clardy. Will you indicate on the record the person upon whom
the subpena was served to obtain the documents?
Mr. Wheeler. I will have to look it up.
Mr. Clardy. We should have it in the record clearly.
Mr. Tavenner. To conserve time, if you let me report that to the
record tomorrow morning
Mr. Clardy. That is O. K. And you have a copy of the subpena
duces tecum ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. I want this to be in the record, also. I want this to be
nailed down tight.
31747— 53— pt. 2 5
498 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Doyle. In connection with the certified copies of the articles of
incorporation, it ought to sliow, the record of this hearing, that on the
back page thereof is this wording :
The documeut to which this certification is attached is a true and correct copy
of the document on file and of record in my oflBce. Attest : March 23, 1953. Har-
old J. Ostley, county clerk and clerk of the Superior Court of the State of Cali-
fornia, in and for the county of Los Angeles. By L. Gold, deputy.
In other words, this certification was made 3 days ago only.
Mr. Tavenner. That applies to exhibit No. 7.
Mr, Doyle. That's right.
(The documents heretofore marked "Lazarus' Exliibits Nos. 1 to 7,"
inclusive, for identification were received in evidence.)
Mr. Lazarus. Now, gentlemen, Mr. Chairman, I think — Mr. Chair-
man, may I have the privilege of just saying a few words?
Mr. Velde. There is no question being asked of you, Mr. Lazarus.
We don't care for any further replies.
Mr. Lazarus. Mr. Chairman, we were talking about a picture.
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute.
Mr. Lazarus. Aren't the American people interested in knowing
what the picture is about ?
Mr. Velde. Let ns have order, please.
Mr. Lazarus. I believe that the American people would like to know
the content of the picture, and I am here to tell you.
Mr. Velde. Is there any reason wiiy this witness should not be dis-
missed ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. Accordingly, this witness is dismissed.
Mr. Clardy. I move the remarks of the witness be stricken from the
record.
Mr. Lazarus. Because you don't want the American people to hear
about it.
Mr. Velde. The voluntary remarks of the witness will be stricken
from the record.
The committee will stand in adjournment until 10 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
(Wliereupon, at 5 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 10 a. m.
Friday, March 27, 1953.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES AREA— Part 2
FRIDAY, MARCH 27, 1953
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles^ Calif,
PUBLIC HEARING
The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to ad-
journment, at 10 : 10 a. m., in room 518, Federal Building, Hon.
Harold H. Velde (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman), Donald L. Jackson, Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer,
Francis E. Walter, Morgan M. Moulder, Clyde Doyle, and James B.
Frazier, Jr.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Louis J.
Russell, chief investigator; Thomas W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk; Ra-
phael I. Nixon, director of research; and William A. Wheeler, in-
vestigator.
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order.
Let the record show that a full quorum of the committee is present.
Mr, Counsel, do you have a witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Mr. LeRoy Herndon.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this com-
mittee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Herndon. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LeROY TRAVERS HERNDON, JR.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Herndon. LeRoy Travers Herndon, Jr.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name ?
Mr. Herndon. H-e-r-n-d-o-n.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Herndon. In Gonzales, Calif., September 1, 1906.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession?
Mr. Herndon. I am a teacher.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your
formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Herndon. I graduated from Stanford University, January of
1927. I did my graduate work there that same year, finished my
graduate work there. I went to the 1928 summer session at Stanford.
499
500 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
In 1985 I attended the University of N«w Mexico •summer 'Session.
In 1937, summer session at Stanford. 1949, 1950, and 1951, summer
sessions at the University of Southern California.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?
Mr. Herndon. In La Canaihi, Calif.
Mr. Tavexner. Will you tell the committee how you have been
employed since the beginning of your professional career?
Mr, Herndon. In 1927-28 I taught in the Orosi Union High School.
In 1929 and 1930 — I had better put something else in there.
In 1928 and 1929 I traveled in Europe. I was in Spain for 4 months
and I had 2 jobs there. I worked for the Ford INIotor Co. in their
assembly plant in the daytime and taught English at night.
Coming back to the United States I taught in the Sacramento
Junior College the year of 1929 and 1930.
Since 1930 I have been at Glendale College, except for 3 years when
I was absent on military leave.
Mr. Ta\^nner. "Wliat years were you absent on military leave ?
Mr. Herndon. From September 1952 unitl October 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Herndon. No, sir.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. You are aware of the fact, are you not, that you
are entitled to counsel at any time during the course of your interro-
gation ?
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr, Tavenner, Professor Herndon, it has come to the attention
of the committee, through several sources, that you were at one time
a member of the Communist Party. Is that correct?
Mr. Herndon. That is. I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Over how long a period of time were you a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Herndon. I thought it was 2 years, but I just this morning at
5 o'clock finally realized it was from the fall of 1937 until the fall
of 1940, so that makes 3 years.
Mr. Tavenner, Since 1940 have you been associated in any way
with the Communist Party or the activities of the Communist Party?
Mr, Herndon. Not officially, not socially, not in interest, not in
any way.
Mr, Velde, Mr. Counsel, I interrupt at this point. It is apparent
that the witness is going to give certain information. The committee
has need to go into executive session to determine the future conduct
of the committee hearings, and in view of the large number of wit-
nesses that we have subpenaed, I now will appoint Mr. Clardy of
Michigan as chairman of the subcommittee consisting of himself and
Mr. Scherer of Ohio to continue with this hearing, and the remainder
of the committee will go into executive session.
Mr. Tavenner, Mr, Herndon, let's start your testimony with
the very inception of your Communist Party membership.
Mr, Herndon, Do you want me to tell you why I joined?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes; including all the circumstances under which
you became a member and any facts that you have in mind leading up
to your membership in the party, because before your testimony is
completed I think the committee would like to know all the circum-
stances under which you became a member and all the circumstances
under which you left the party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 501
Mr. Herndon. Before I answer that question specifically and di-
rectly, would it be possible for me to answer it rather generally?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Herndon. I think I have learned a little bit at a rather heavy
price from my association with the Communist Party. Many people
still believe anyone who has been a Communist is a traitor, and many
people think that the Communists preach overthrowing the Govern-
ment by force and violence, and I think the Communists are highly
dangerous just because they soft-pedal and conceal and try to explain
away their ultimate ends.
If the Communist Party were to openly preach the sort of murder
and theft that their theories will result in, they would have even a
very much smaller fractional membership than the small membership
they now have.
I tliink that the Communists pick every possible kind of trust-
worthy cause to use as bait. In my unhappy experience every one
of the good and trustworthy causes which the Communists have
espoused has concealed a hook, a very deviously and cleverly concealed
hook, and in my case the hook that caught me was the Spanish
Kepublic.
Mr. Tavenner. Was what ?
Mr. Herndon. Was the Spanish Kepublic. I am a Spanish teacher.
I read the newspapers in Mexico at the time of the Spanish War during
the summer of 1936. and the ncAvspapers in Mexico during the Spanish
War treated it as if it were more important than the newspapers here.
They regarded the Spanish War as somewhat dangerous to the safety
of the world, the Western Hemisphere included.
In many cases I thought that most of the American newspapers
were underplaying it, and the only people that were making it known
here were the Communists, and I was reading at that time the British
papers, Frencli, Spanish, Mexican, Cuban, anything I could lay my
hands on, and finally, unfortunately, I got my hands on some Commu-
nist publications, and they were working for the Spanish Republic.
I thought the safety of the Spanish Republic, which was being at-
tacked by the Fascists, was vital to the United States.
I thought that our policy was rather suicidal in reference to aban-
doning the Spanish Republic. I was interested in these people who I
thought were clearly presenting what might be the unhappy conse-
quences of abandoning the Spanish Republic.
So, unfortunately, I became more and more interested in the Com-
munists who I thought were doing good work. It wasn't until long
after I left the party that I saw tlie hook in it, tliat the Communists
were interested in the Spanish Republic, I believe now, not for the
preservation of the Spanish, but so that they could take it over as a
Communist country after the wreckage of the civil war. I thought
that they were interested in defeating the enemies of the Spanish
Republic, but I believe now that they were interested in it so that they
could take over the country as a Communist country after the wreckage
of it by the civil war.
Mr. Clardy. In other words, there was a hook even in that.
Mr. Herndon. I believe so. But it wasn't until after I left the
party that I was able to figure that out by continuously reading all I
could lay my hands on as to what had happened.
502 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES ES^ THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Well, will you tell the committee, please, how your
interests in the Spanish Republic finally led you into the Communist
Party?
Mr. Herkdon. I thought the Communists at the time were doing a
great deal by way of propaganda and explanation and really straight
news reporting to give the truth about what was happening in the
Spanish Republic. I think they shaded the truth now a little bit, but
they were giving a great deal more of what later turned out to be the
truth tlian tho immediate communications at the time.
I thought if they were right on that and right on saying that Hit-
ler— of course, at that time many people thought Hitler was a funny
man with a mustache, like Mr. Chaplin, and I thought he was a grave
danger and the Communists had been screaming that for some time.
They also thought that it was extremely dangerous that the Japanese
were invading China. They were more or less right on that. They
concealed a hook in both of those cases, also.
I wondered if they were right in those cases, and thought that if
they were right in those cases, they might be right in other things. I
was interested to find out what they stood for. I had to go inside the
party to find out what they did stand for.
I think T could have stayed out and perhaps taken a little longer
and become disillusioned without having to take the step of joining
the party, but I did take that step.
Mr. Tavenner. Just what steps did you take in getting into the
party ?
Mr. Herndon. I was in San Francisco. There was a girl I knew
slightly. I asked her if she knew any way I could make contact with
the Communist Party. I didn't think of going to their headquarters
for some reason or other. She said she might know someone in San
Francisco who might know someone in Los Angeles who might get in
touch with me.
I returned to Los Angeles. Some time later I received a telephone
call to come to a certain address in Los Angeles at a certain time. I
went there. I met a man who introduced himself to me as Sidney
Freeman. I am not quite sure of that name. I don't know if it is a
real name or an alias.
He asked me why I wanted to get into the Communist Party. I told
him on account of Spain, and he handed me a membership card and
I signed it.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned to any particular group of the
Communist Party after becoming a member?
Mr. Herndon. Yes, sir. I was immediately assigned to the teachers'
unit of the Hollywood Professional Section.
Mr. Tavenner. To the teachers' unit of the Hollywood Professional
Section of the Communist Party?
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, when you were given that assignment were
you at the Communist Party headquarters in Los Angeles?
Mr. Herndon. No.
Mr. Tavi:nner. Where were you?
Mr. Herndon. A person who was a member of the unit called me
and told me where the next meeting would be, and I was to appear
at the next meeting of the unit.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 503
Mr. Tavenner. Who called upon you and gave you that informa-
tion ?
Mr. Herndon. Richard Byrd Lewis.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what Mr. Lewis' occupation was at
that time ?
Mr. Herndon. He was a teacher.
Mr. Tavenner. AVhere, at what institution?
Mr. Herndon. In Glendale College.
Mr. Ta\^nner. What college ?
Mr. Herndon. In Glendale College.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, when was it, as nearly as you can recall?
Mr. Herndon. This was sometime in the fall of 1937.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, as a result of that information, did you attend
a meeting of the teachers' unit?
Mr. Herndon. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was the meeting held ?
Mr. Herndon. I cannot now remember. I have tried time and
again. I know the section of the city, but I can't find the street. I
have been by there trying to find the place.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member of that par-
ticular unit, the teachers' unit of the professional group of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Herndon. I don't know, and I have tried to remember that. I
must have left sometime in 1940, in the winter or spring of 1940.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Then during that period of time you became very
familiar with the activities of that group?
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How many persons composed the group ?
]\lr. Herndon. I could remember 12 names and I think that is about
it, but some people left and other people came in later, perhaps 8 or
10 at the time at the most.
Mr. Tavenner. AVere these persons representatives from different
educational institutions' or where they all from one educational insti-
tution?
Mr. Herndon. They were individuals from various educational
institutions.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, let us try to get clear at this point just what
the Communist Party organization was within the teaching profes-
sion. Can you give me information as to other Communist Party
groups within the teaching profession in addition to the one that you
were in ? .
Mr. Herndon. I know of no other teachers' unit, not directly or by
hearsay, in Los Angeles. At that time the various professions were
not — or at that time the professional people in the Communist Party
were organized by professions so that there would be a teachers'
unit and perhaps some other units. There were motion picture units.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, this particular unit of the Communist Party
within the teaching profession covered what general territory or
area?
Mr. Herndon. Los Angeles and its surroundings. I think Lewis
and I were the only people who were not in the Los Angeles public
schools, the only two.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, were the rest of the members from any par-
ticular public school or from the public schools generally ?
504 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Herndon, I believe tliey were mostly scattered. My recollec-
tion isn't plain, but I don't believe that there was more than one per
school.
Mr. Tan^enner. Was that group already organized when you
joined it?
Mr. Herndon. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, did you learn in the course of your experience
in that group how long it had been organized ?
Mr. Herndok. No ; I did not. If I did, I have forgotten.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what the main
interest was of that group of the Communist Party which was created
within the teaching profession in Los Angeles?
Mr. Herndon. Two interests. One of them was self-education in
Communist philosophy, which we did by making book reports to each
other, really. And in the second place, at the time I was in it, at-
tempting to control to whatever degree possible the policies of the
Teachers' Union.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by the Teachers' Union?
Mr. Herndon. I mean at that time the American Federation of
Teachers, Local 430.
I would like to say that I believe that local 430 had its charter
revoked by the national organization and that the present Teachers'
Union in Los Angeles has a new charter.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that local's charter revoked?
Mr. Herndon. I believe sometime within the last 2 or 3 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know the reasons for the revocation?
Mr. Herndon. I know from what I have read in the newspapers
that there were charges of Communist infiltration, and the union
purged itself of that.
Mr. Tavenner. So, then, if I understand you correctly, the two
main interests of this Communist Party group was self-education in
Communist theory.
Mr. Herndon. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. And controlling the policies of the Teachers' Local
430.
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. In your study of Communist Party literature, can
you advise the committee more fully as to just what that covered?
Mr. Herndon. I had been accepted in the teachers' unit without any
formal indoctrination period, and I imagine that some of the other
members had been accepted in the same way because we were supposed
to sort of catch up on general party theory, and also keep abreast of
the latest explanations of the change in party line at all times. I don't
think we really did in the teachers' unit a very good job of either one
of those.
The Communist Party literature is written, a large part of it, in a
special vocabulary, a special jargon, which is hard to read and rather
unpleasant to read unless you liave been brought up on it, and I think
we rather skipped our homework assignments a good part of the time.
Mr. Tavenner, How was this Communist Party material obtained?
Mr. Herndon. There were at the time a couple of bookstores in
Los Angeles. There was 1 on Western Avenue, 1 downtown on,
I believe, Spring Street, and 1 member of the party — 1 member of
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 505
the unit had the job of acting as literature agent. He would go there
and pick up all types of pamphlets, books, mimeographed sheets,
and what not, which he would attempt to sell to his fellow members.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether that literature included such
works as the Communist Manifesto?
Mr, Hkrndon. It did.
Mr. Tavenner. Marx's Das Kapital?
Mr. Herndon. I don't believe a copy of that was ever sold while
I was in the unit. It was for sale in the bookstore.
Mr. Clardy. It is a little too turgid for ordinary reading.
Mr. Herndon. I have read very little of it, not 10 pages.
Mr. Clardy. It is difficult stuff to read.
Mr. Herndon. It is.
Mr. TA\Ti;NNER. Did you study or was there brought to these meet-
ings the various works of Lenin and Engels ?
Mr. Herndon. Yes ; I can remember even a couple of titles.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I would like to know what they were.^
Mr. Herndon. Lenin's Statement on Revolution, and Lenin on
Imperialism, and I remember Engels on Value, Price, and Profit.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall also the various works of Foster ?
Mr. Herndon. Not by name. I know he wrote a good many pam-
phlets which may have been sold at the meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. I am speaking of William Z. Foster, who was the
head of the Commxmist Party in the United States at that time.
Mr. Herndon. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were these bookstores located and what were
their names?
Mr. Herndon. One of them was called the Progressive Book Store.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you state that again, please?
Mr. Herndon. The Progressive Book Store.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was it located ?
Mr. Herndon. I don't know whether it was the one on Northwestern
Avenue or the one on South Spring Street.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Is it still in existence ?
Mr. Herndon. I don't know. I don't believe so — ^no ; because I have
been by both places.
Mr. Tavenner. Then what was the name of the second bookstore
you referred to?
Mr. Herndon. I cannot remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you remember the location ? Well, I think
possibly I should not ask you that question if you don't recall the
name of the store, so I withdraw the question.
During the course of your Communist Party meetings were you
addressed from time to time by high functionaries of the Comnmnist
Party?
Mr. Herndon. No.
Mr. Tavenner. You were not ?
Mr. Herndon. No.
Mr. Tavenner. In your Communist Party experience, did you be-
come acquainted with functionaries of the Communist Party on a
higher level than that of your group ?
Mr. Herndon. In the next highest level we had a contact with the
professional section, and a contact with — I don't know whether it was
506 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
a contact with the county or with another contact with the profes-
sional section. But tliere were two so-called professional Communists
who sometimes attended our meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were they?
Mr. Hhrndon. A woman named Jane Wallace, I think.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Do you know whether that was her party name or
her actual name ?
Mr. Herndon. I am not sure whether it was Jane Wallace or it was
Jane Wilson, and I don't know which was which; Jane Wallace or
Jane Wilson.
Mr. Clardt. If he can identify her any further
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us any further identifying informa-
tion
Mr. Herndon. Other than the name, no.
Mr. Taatsnner. Of the individual ?
Mr. Herndon. Of the individual ?
Mr. TA^^:NNER. Do you know whether the individual was a full-
time employee of the Communist Party or whether the person had
some other occupation ?
Mr. Herndon. I understood she was a full-time employee.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the name of the second person ?
Mr. Herndon. Anne — I got her mixed up with someone else, now.
Mr. Clardy. Perhaps he had better give it a little more thought.
Mr. Tavenner. Possibly you should wait and see if the name oc-
curs to you later in the course of your testimony.
Mr. Clardt. I would rather we didn't get anything unless he is
sure.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. Yes. I think if you are not sure about a name you
should not suggest that it was possibly so and so. We want only your
very positive and distinct recollection.
I want to read to you and make a part of the record some things
that were said about the teachers and the teaching profession in the
Communist Party literature as a basis for asking you additional
questions.
In volume 23 of Lenin, at page 499, there appears this statement:
Today the chief task of those members of the teachins: profession who have
taken their stand with the International and the Soviet Government is to work
for the creation of a wider and, as nearly as possible, an all-embracing teachers'
union.
Of course, Stalin at that time was writing in Russia and he was writ-
ing on the subject generally.
Again at page 500, Lenin has this to say :
Your union should now become a broad teachers' trade union embracing vast
numbers; a union which will resolutely take up its stand on the Soviet platform
and the struggle for socialism by means of a dictatorship of the proletariat.
Do you recall whether that part of Lenin was actually discussed in
your special group within the teachers' group?
Mr. Herndon. I don't recognize either of those quotations as having
heard them before.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like also to read you a paragraph from
Toward Soviet America by William Z. Foster, printed in 1932, relat-
ing to the subject of education. He said :
Araon.i; the elementary measures the American Soviet Government will adopt
to further the cultural revolution are the following :
COJVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 507
The schools, colleges, and universities will be coordinated and grouped under
the National Department of Education and its State and local branches.
The studies will be revolutionized, being cleansed of religious, patriotic, and
other features of the bourgeois Ideoloy.
The students will be taught on the basis of Marxian dialectical materialism,
internationalism, and the general ethics of the new Socialist society.
Present obsolete methods of teaching will be superseded by a scientific
pedagogy. Religious schools will be abolished.
Do you recall that portion of Foster's volume on Toward Soviet
America having been read or discussed in your meetings?
jSIr. Herndon. I remember the title of the book, as we were recom-
mended to read it, and I evidently never read it because I don't re-
member that passage.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you informed by higher functionaries of the
Communist Party fully as to what the Communist Party intended to
accomplish by infiltration into the teachers' groups?
Mr. Herndon. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. In this connection I want to read you an excerpt
from the Communist, an organ commonly referred to as an organ of
the Communist Party, of May 1937, entitled "The School and the
People's Front," by Richard Frank. Richard Frank was a member
of the education commission of the Young Communist League. He
had this to say :
The task of the Communist Party must be first and foremost to arouse the
teachers to class consciousness and to organize them into the American Federa-
tion of Teachers, which is the main current of the American labor government.
In the effort to organize the teachers every care must be taken to bring together
in united front actions all existing teachers' organizations. Especial attention
must be paid to secure such action with the American Association of University
Professors, the National Education Association and the Guild. Our party men>
bers in these organizations must work actively toward that end.
Well, do you recall those purposes or objectives of the Communist
Party being discused at your meetings ?
Mr. Herndon. The part you read about increasing working-class
consciousness among teachers, yes, that sort of thing. The influence on
the teachers' unit of the Communist Party at the time I was in it
seemed to be not based on any broad general philosophy, but on,
rather, week-by-week or month-by-month piecemeal actions in favor
of this, that or the other.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you have stated that 1 of the principal ob-
jectives, 1 of the 2 principal objectives, as you understood it, of your
particular group of the Communist Party was to control the policies
of the teachers' local.
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did that include also the ability to take over the
organization and influence it generally?
Mr. Herndon. By "take over the organization," we did not want to
have a complete slate of officers, for instance, who were Communists.
We had the secretary of the union during the time I was there, and
she was a Communist. I think she was perhaps the only member of
the governing l^oard who was a Communist.
But that, you see, was the contact and the in for the Communist
Party. We didn't want to head it. The Communists didn't want to
head it. They wanted to have people who were not possibly compro-
mised running it for them, and they would pull the wires behind the
508 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
scene. Domination in that sense, yes, but not by electing a complete
slate of officers.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, the Teachers' Union was composed of many
teachers who were not in any sense members of the Communist Party
or even sympathetic to the Communist Party, is that right?
Mr. Herndox. I myself had joined it in Sacramento in 1929, prac-
tically before I heard of the Communist Party, on its own merits.
Mr. Tavenner. How many people were members of Local 430 of the
Teacher's Union?
Mr. Herndon. I do not know.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us a general idea ?
Mr. Herndon. The membership must have been much larger than
the attendance at meetings. At meetings we would have 150 or 200
members, perhaps.
Mr. Clardy. How frequent were those meetings?
Mr, Herndon. I believe once a month.
Mr. Clardy. That was about the average attendance?
Mr. Herndon. One hundred and fifty members average.
Mr. Tavenner. How many members were there in this Communist
Party unit which was seeking to exert its influence on the union?
Mr. Herndon. Eight, ten, twelve.
Mr. Clardy. Of course, the 8, 10, or 12 were a cohesive unit with a
definite objective, so you were able to sell your ideas to those at least
who just at random differed on particular subjects?
Mr. Herndon. Exactly, yes, because the Communist Party acted as
a unit, frequently would dissolve its meeting, the formal meeting, and
reconvene as a fraction of the teachers' units to discuss what was com-
ing up, to plan motions and seconds to motions, and so on, and plan
just what route would be followed in case anything unforeseen came
up, and we could call the party caucus in advance of the executive
board of the union. We caucused before the executive board and also
we caucused in advance of the general membership meetings.
Mr. Clardy. So at the meeting you had all your moves planned both
for the executive committee and for the membership meetings.
Mr. Herndon. The Communists came early, stayed late, and volun-
teered for the dirty jobs.
Mr. Clardy. And outshouted the rest of them when that became
necessary, I take it?
Mr. Herndon. If necessary.
Mr. Tavenner. Did this type of activity continue during the entire
period of your membership in the teachers' unit of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr Tavenner Would you state to the committee, please, whether
in your judgment your Communist Party unit was fairly successful in
its endeavors in connection with the Teachers' Union?
Mr, Herndon. It was very successful in its endeavors. We were
careful not to try anything too raw, so we would try only things which
were slightly raw, because if we tried anything too raw we would have
been slapped down by the membership at large.
Mr. Clardy. I take it you reall}^ never lost out on an important issue
that you wanted to raise?
Mr. Herndon. Not that I can remember. My memory is quite
vague on specific issues at this distance.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 509
Mr. Clardt. I would imagine it would be.
Mr Tavenner Can you recall any particular instance when the
Communist unit set about a deliberate plan to cause the Teachers'
Union to follow its leadership in any outstanding matter?
Mr. Herndon. Not specifically.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not the Communist Party
endeavored, to your knowledge, to have the Teachers' Union adopt
resolutions that related to matters outside of its own immediate sphere
of operations, such as on international questions or foreign policies
of the Government, or matters of that kind as to which the Communist
Party line changed from time to time?
Mr. Herndon. I can remember telegi'ams, for instance, being au-
thorized by the resolutions of the membership on matters of housing,
on matters — on Spain, also, on which the Communist Party line of
the moment was followed.
Mr. Tavenner. Were such matters endorsed and approved at your
meetings of the Conununist Party members, which were held prior to
the meetings of the Teachers' Union ?
Mr. Herndon. They were and that was pursuant to instructions
from above, which would frequently come in the form of directives
in the Communist newspapers, that all Communist organizations
should get the non-Communist organizations with which they were
affiliated to further certain policies of the party nationally.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall any instance in which they took a
position with respect to the foreign policy of this country or the
Soviet Union ?
Mr. Herndon. I cannot.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of the schools or in-
stitutions which were represented in this Communist unit of the pro-
fessional units of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Herndon. I wouldn't say the schools were represented. There
was a member from the City College of Los Angeles. There was a
member from the junior high schools.
Mr. Tavenner. I think possibly at this time it would be well to
identify, if he can, who the member or members were from the various
scliools.
Mr. Herndon. There was a man named Norman Byrne from the
City College. There was a high school, a junior high school in North
Hollywood ; I do not know the name of the high school. The teacher's
name was Harry Shepro.
Roosevelt High School, there was a teacher named Eose P-o-s-e-l-L
And Lewis and myself from Glendale College.
Mr. Tavenner. What was Lewis' first name ?
Mr. Herndon. Richard Byrd Lewis.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he have a nickname or a pseudonym ?
Mr. Herndon. Dick was his nickname.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall the names of other persons from
other institutions?
Mr. Herndon. Those are the only names whose schools I can re-
member at this time. I may never have known the schools these people
were from. We were very secretive with one another and very secre-
tive within the party as to the other units. I didn't know, for instance,
of certain knowledge what other professional units there were besides
510 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA
teaching. I know there were others. I can't say certainly what others
there were.
Mr. Clardy. Each cell was more or less hermetically sealed against
the rest.
Mr. Herndon. At that time, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. We have learned in the course of these hearings
from the testimony of Mr. Ashe that the purpose of forming the
professional cells, was to give the members of the professions a type
of security which other persons in the Communist Party did not
eniov.
Mr. Herndon. Exactly.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, were most of the members in that group
members of the Teachers' Union Local 430 ?
Mr. Herndon. All of them who were in teaching were, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. But there were some persons in your group who
were not teachers ?
Mr. Herndon. There were some people whose status was — there
was the wife of one there. I am not sure whether she was or ever had
been a teacher.
Mr. Tavenner. What was her name ?
Mr. Herndon. Anna Shepro. She was a member for a short time
and dropped out.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall how many locals of the Teachers'
Union there were in the State of California at that time?
Mr. Herndon. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You know there were others.
Mr. Herndon. There were others. I was a charter member of the
local which was formed in Glendale and Burbank, which never
amounted to much, died of lack of interest, and that was born on
orders from the party.
Mr. Clardy. From whom did the orders come?
Mr. Herndon. I don't know, sir, and I don't suppose we were en-
couraged to ask these questions. As I remember it, I didn't ask many
questions.
Mr. Clardy. You mean someone in your own local group just ad-
vised the group that he had orders from higher up to set up this
program and you all blindly followed through?
Mr. Herndon. That is about it.
Mr. Clardy. Who was the secretary of your group ?
Mr. Herndon. They changed at various times. The idea was more
or less to rotate the officers. I cannot remember anyone who was
secretary.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of other persons in your
group who may not have been teachers at the time? You gave us
the wife of Mr. Shepro as one. Now, were there others that you can
recall ?
Mr. Herndon. Another wife of another member, and I am not sure
whether she is a teacher or not or whether she merely attended our
meetings because of family convenience.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, just a moment. If it is a mere matter of
family convenience, I don't believe I will ask you any questions, un-
less you are certain she was a member of your group.
Mr. Herndon. 1 could not be that certain of it.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 511
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with a person by the name
of Jane Howe?
Mr. Herndox. Jane Howe is the name that I remembered as Anne.
It is not Anne. It is Jane Howe. That was the name I couldn't re-
member a minute ago.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether she went by another name,
used another name, also ?
Mr. Herndon. She did, but I can't be sure what it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it Anne Kinney ?
Mr. Herndon. I believe it was. I believe it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, Anne Kinney has testified before the com-
mittee in executive session, and has admitted her membership in the
Communist Party. In fact, she testified that she was at one time a
Socialist, and that there was a Communist Party unit organized within
the Socialist Party of which she was a member, and Mr. Ashe, who
was one of the early witnesses in this hearing, was also a member and
who had testified to it.
She also testified how she was assigned to this particular unit, your
unit of the Teachers' Union, and that she left the party, I believe in
October of 1945, and has not been a member of the party since.
Now, she further testified that she was on a committee which had
the job of disciplining members of the Communist Party where occa-
sion for such a thing existed.
Do you know anything about that ? Do you know anything about
discipline that was exercised within the Communist Party by a
committee ?
Mr. Herndon. Only by hearsay. I heard that there were discipli-
nary committees which were supposed to be very fierce organizations,
but there were no disciplinary cases in regard to anyone whom I knew
while I was in the party.
Mr. Clardy. You yourself were never disciplined by the party ?
Mr. Herndon. No formal reprimands after a formal hearing or
anything of the sort. There was a good deal of self-criticism and in-
formal slapping down of members who were slack in any way. At my
first party meeting I was too frightened. I was told to stand up on
my feet and give a 3-minut« speech on why it was important not to
come 2 minutes late. I came in 2 minutes after 8 or whatever it
was. I suppose you would call that informal discipline.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson reentered the hearing room
at this point, 11 a. m.)
Mr. Jackson. Did your group of the Communist Party endeavor to
exercise its influence over the Teachers' Union to the extent of con-
trolling the delegates from the teachers' local to the State or National
conventions which it had ?
Mr. Herndon. I imagine so, but I can't say so of certain knowledge.
Mr. Jackson. Did you ever attend the State or National convention
as a delegate ?
Mr. Herndon. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever attend a fraction meeting of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Herndon. I attended what was called the State fraction meet-
ing, which was held in San Luis Obispo, I don't know when, and I
don't Imow where it was. I think I know who I went with. I can
512 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
remember wliere we had dinner. I can't remember where we met or
a single thing that was discussed at the meeting. I am astomided at
my own lack of memory. I have been trying ever since I was sub-
penaed to recall this. I suppose that this whole business is so unpleas-
ant in my mind I have forgotten things, or I try to forget things until
I no longer can remember.
It was a State fraction meeting which was held in San Luis Obispo.
1 went there with a number of members of the unit, and the purpose
was to settle policy at the coming State convention of the Teachers'
Union.
Mr. Tavenner. That was the general purpose ?
Mr. Herndon. But the details I cannot recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Does that mean that representatives from other
party units in other locals of the State met in that fraction meeting?
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You said "Yes"?
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. That indicates, then, that there were Communist
organizations within other locals of the union in the State.
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us how many people attended that
fraction meeting?
Mr. Herndon. I cannot even recall to mind the room in which the
meeting was held, which I should be able to see.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of any of the persons
who attended in addition to yourself?
Mr. Herndon. One delegate from Stanford, Dr. Holland Roberts.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the name, please?
Mr. Herndon. H-o-l-l-a-n-d R-o-b-e-r-t-s.
From my own unit, Norman Byrne, Jane Howe, Marjorie Hay, my-
self, Richard Lewis, and one other person whom I cannot remember.
I only know there were 6 people.
Mr. Tavenner. You used the name Marjorie Hay.
Mr. Herndon. Marjorie Hay was a member of the teachers' unit.
She was secretary of the union while I was in the unit.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she a teacher at that time?
Mr. Herndon. A former teacher, I believe. Yes, a former teacher.
Mr. Tavenner. Were there any other members of your Communist
Party group who became officers of the local union?
Mr. Herndon. I don't remember. There may have been.
Mr. Tavenner. Were the members of your union called upon at
any time to conduct meetings of other groups or appear at meetings
of other groups of the Communist Party?
Mr. Herndon. Do you mean, Mr. Tavenner, members of my unit?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes; your unit of the Communist Party.
Mr. Herndon. I know that I did no outside speaking. I believe,
during that time, Norman Byrne did some outside speaking. I don't
know of other members who may have.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how the arrangements were made for
him to speak at other places or at other meetings?
Mr. Herndon. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there any other activity of your group which you
can tell the committee?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 513
Mr. Hkrndon. Oh, various types of fund-raising activities, sub-
scription selling drives for the Nev^ Masses, the People's World. We
were supposed to get rid of copies of such things as transcripts of the
Moscow trials. We would be assigned 2 or 8 copies and told to go out
and sell those and bring back the money. In some cases people would
be afraid to do that sort of thing, so they would merely bring back
the money and dispose of the literature somewhere else.
The teachers' unit collaborated with the Hollywood professional
section in selling tickets to what was, by the way, a very worthwhile
series of old movies which was given in Hollywood. That I can re-
member. The purpose was fund raising for the party, but under a
cover organization name.
Mr. Tavenner. Were the members of this group encouraged to join
Communist-front organizations ?
Mr. Heendon. Yes; they were.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee about that, please?
Mr. Herndon. At that time the Communists were very interested
in exposing Hitler and Mussolini, in attempting to stop their forward
march, and there was an organization which I think at that time was
called the American League Against War and Fascism. It changed
its name later to the American League for Peace and Democracy, and
we were all supposed to be members of that. Wlien I was first in the
party we were encouraged to become members of the Friends of the
Abraham Lincoln Battalion, which was a group of American volun-
teers fighting for the Spanish Republic and sponsored, I believe, by
the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether you were urged to join the
Friends of the Soviet Union?
Mr. Herndon. I knew of the organization, but I don't believe we
were encouraged to join it. I was not,
Mr. Tavenner. Now, how did your group handle the question of
recruitment into the party ?
Mr. Herndon. By pep talks, but not much action.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Well, did you invite members of the faculty of the
various schools from which your members had come to meetings for
the purpose of interesting them into coming into the Communist
Party?
Mr. Herndon, We talked about it, but I don't believe we ever did
during the time I was in the party. We were afraid of exposing our-
selves. We didn't know anyone who was ripe enough to join. We
were supposed to do that, but we couldn't find enough candidates.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you use your own name in signing your
Communist Party card ?
Mr. Herndon. We used an alias and then the name was penciled
in — the right name was penciled in in some cases, but we all of us had
what was called a party name.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your party name ?
Mr, Herndon, Joe Anderson,
Mr, Jackson, Let me ask one question. Did you pick your own
party name or did the party pick it for you ?
Mr, Herndon. I picked that one.
Mr. Jackson, They gave you some latitude.
Mr, Herndon. Yes, sir.
31747 — 53— t)t. 2 6
514 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee whether or not you have
enj[;a<;ed in any Communist Party association or afliliation since the
time you withdrew from the party ?
Mr. Herndox. I stayed as far away from those people as I thought
I could possibly get.
Mr. Tavenner. What activity, if any, have you engaged in since
you left the party which would be an indication of good faith in your
complete withdrawal from the party ?
Mr. Herndon. I went back to work teaching school to the very best
of my ability. I have joined no organizations. I had a perhaps irra-
tional fear of organizations. There are some organizations which
have called themselves anti-Communist and have been called pro-
Communist, and I frankly distrusted my own political judgment,
which had been so bad in getting me into the Communist Party. I
thought I better stay out of organizations for a while.
Mr. Tavenner, Well, will you tell the committee the circumstances
which led you to the decision to get out of the Communist Party?
Mr. Herndon. I was transferred with another member to a unit
which met in Pasadena, and I was told that the unit was dying on its
feet and that I, being one of the youngest members in the teachers'
unit — I think the youngest — w^as supposed to go over there and re-
vivify it, and by that time, the beginning of 1940, Stalin had signed
his pact with Plitler, and I hadn't been able to believe it. I thought
the Communist breast would come out with some fine reason behind
this action and that it would be explained away.
Well, I waited a long time. I am still waiting for an explanation
which would explain it away. I see now that I was becoming very
disillusioned with the Communist Party at that time.
I went over to Pasadena and the unit was dying on its feet and they
were not teachers, mostly. We had very little in common outside of
an interest in communism, and my interest in communism was becom-
ing less and less. I used my school woi'k as an excuse. At the time
I was designing and building stage scenery for school productions
and I had a good excuse to miss meetings. I skipped as much as I
could. I had an operation that sunnner. I spent a month in bed. I
spent 2 months in Mexico on leave from the party. That fall I went
back rather sporadically, becoming more and more disgusted with the
whole thing, and when Stalin invaded Finland I gave up. I went
away and didn't come back.
I had decided by that time — what I had joined was supposed to be
the teachers' unit of the Hollywood professional section of the Com-
munist Party of the United States, and I decided finally that I had
more than enough evidence to persuade me that the so-called Com-
munist Party of the United States was absolutely nothing more nor
less than a tool of the Soviet foreign policy, of Russian foreign policy,
and I didn't want any part of it.
Mr. Tavenner. And as a result you made the decision to get out
of it and to stay out?
Mr. Herndon. Yes. I should have done it sooner, of course. I
had lieard all sorts of tales of disciplinarv committees and goon squads
and I -thought someone would drive up beside me and finish me oflF,
perhaps. Actually, I really had nothing to fear.
Mr. Tavenner. I have not asked you any question about the efforts
of the teachers in your unit to influence students in the schools, if they
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA 515
made any effort at all. Was that matter discussed at any time in your
^roup meetings ?
Mr. Herndon. Of course, a good Communist was supposed to in-
fluence anybody and everybody, but a professional, a Communist in
the professional section, and especially a teacher Communist, had
something else to think about, and that was that he must on no ac-
count allow himself to be exposed or labeled as a Communist. It was
felt it would rather cramp the teacher's style.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by that, might cramp the
teacher's style ?
Mr. Herndox. If a teacher is going to be promulgating in his
class the Conununist Party line day after day, in most cases it would
become a little too obvious that he was teaching the Communist Party
line and not teaching his subject, which would be the same as expos-
ing himself and branding him, and at that time the Communists be-
lieved that a teacher who was a known Communist was a teacher
almost without influence.
Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question there? Why were teachers
considered to be of such great importance that it was felt necessary
to take such extreme measures to prevent their disclosure as Com-
munists? Were they considered important in the Communist Party
picture, teachers ?
Mr. Herndon. Teachers organizationally in the Communist Party,
I think not. They were considered important as potential propa-
gandists. Potentially as propagandists they were considered very
important. Actually, there were rather few. There were about 700
teachers in Glendale at the time, and I only laiow of myself and one
other who were members.
(Short recess was taken.)
(After the recess, at 11 : 40 a. m., Representatives Donald L. Jack-
son, Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, Francis E. Walter, Morgan M.
Moulder, Clyde Doyle, and James B. Frazier, Jr., reentered the hear-
ing room.)
Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Tavenner, In the earlier part of your testimony, Mr. Herndon,
I understood you to say there were approximately 12 members of
this Communist Party unit in the professional group of which you
were a member.
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I have already asked you to give us the names of
those who were teachers. I think you have done that.
Mr. Herndon. I gave you the names of those teachers whose
specific schools I know. There were others who were teachers of
schools I do not know, whose names I know.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Herndon, will you give us the names of the
other teachers that j^ou know ?
Mr. Herndox. There was a man named Sam Kalish, K-a-1-i-s-h,
who was a night school teacher, who attended very few meetings on
that account.
Mr. Ta\^nxer. Can you give any further identifying information
in regard to him?
Mr. Herxdon. I may have seen him only a few times. He was a
member before I was, I know that.
Mr. Tavenner. If you will proceed.
516 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES m THE LOS ANGELES AEEA
Mr. Hernikjn. Norman Byrne, whose name I already gave. Mar-
jorie Hay, H-a-y. Harry Shepro, S-h-e-p-r-o, and Anna Shepro.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give any further identifying information?
Mr. Herndon. No further identifying information. An English
teacher.
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me?
Mr. Hkrndon. An English teacher, I can say that, yes.
Zara Becker— pardon. Barta Numovna, Honore Carey, Matilda
Lewis, Abe Minkus.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us any further identifying informa-
tion regarding him ?
Mr. Herndon. I know he didn't teach high school. I know he
didn't teach senior high school. That is all I know.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how long he was a member of your
group ?
Mr. Herndon. He became a member after I entered, and he was
still in when I left. His wife, Libby Minkus, who, I believe, was
not a teacher, and myself, and Richard Byrd Lewis, no relation to the
Matilda Lewis.
Matilda Lewis, by the way, did not come to meetings for more
than a short while. She may have left the party or been transferred,
1 am not sure which, before I left.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you have told us that you were sent on a mis-
sion to another area to attempt to revive a Communist Party group
which was beginning to weaken.
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. AVhere was that?
Mr. Herndon. That was in Pasadena and it was a mixed group.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by "mixed group"?
Mr. Herndon. Not one profession. In fact, not even entirely pro-
fessional.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you remember how many members there were ?
Mr. Herndon. Well, including the 2 of us who were sent there,
10.
Mr. Tavenner. AVlio were the 8 members who were originally mem-
bers of that group, before you went over ?
Mr. Herndon. I can remember only 2 names, a man and his wife.
At his home we met. I don't know what they did, now.
Another man and his wife. The man, I believe, was a dentist.
A man who was an instructor.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you, are you positive of the names of
the individuals
Mr. Herndon. I cannot — haven't the faintest recollection of the
names of those four. And I have attempted to remember. I spent an
hour and a half last Saturday driving around Pasadena, trying to
locate the two houses in wliich we had met.
I was fairly sure I had found one, and the other one I was com-
pletely at a loss to find, although I knew about where to look for it.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you, by one means or another, refreshed your
recollection so that you can positively remember them ?
Mr. Herndon. Two people.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you identify them by name ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 517
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please do so ?
Mr. Herndon. One of them was an instructor at Caltech. His
name was Sidney Weinberg.^ There was another man who, I think,
may be dead. He was an elderly man at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Just a minute.
Mr. Herndon. I feel a little reluctant in giving his name.
Mr. Tavenner, If tlie person is deceased, I don't want to press the
question,
Mr. Jackson. I think not.
Mr, Herndon, He was a member from Glendale, not from Pasadena,
Mr. Tavenner. I will ask you to make some further inquiry your-
self as to whether or not the individual you have in mind is deceased,
and ask you to advise the investigator of the committee, who is sta-
tioned here, of the result of your investigation.
Mr. Herndon. I think I may be able to do so.
Mr. Tavenner. Did that group of the Communist Party continue
in its operations ?
Mr. Herndon. Yes; I think it became weaker, rather than stronger,
though.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it still in existence when you left the Commu-
nist Party ?
Mr, Herndon, It was.
Mr. Tav'enner. Have you had any knowledge of its operations since
you left the Communist Party ?
Mr, Herndon, This man Sidney Weinberg ^ came twice to my house
to ask me to come back, after I had stayed away, with no explanation
whatsoever. I didn't say, "Goodby." I just stayed away. Both
times I told him, "I am far too busy. I have to work nights. I think
not."
Mr. Tavenner, Can you fix the approximate time when that
occurred ?
Mr. Herndon. It was before Christmas, before the end of the year,
in 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Herndon, the committee is very much
•concerned about the situation that may exist where a teacher at the
present time who is subject to the discipline of the Communist Party
may be actively engaged in teaching in a school. Now I would like
to know from you, from your own experience and from your knowl-
edge of the objectives of the Communist Party and its operation, what
you have to say from your own standpoint as to the advisability of a
teacher being permitted to teach young students, particularly where
the teacher is subject to the directives of the Communist Party and its
discipline,
Mr. Herndon, Tliat brings up the question of academic freedom,
and my conception of academic freedom is that a teacher should teach
his subject, and good citizenship and good character along with it, to
the best of his ability, that he should use his intelligence and teach
the truth as far as he can see it, and that his teaching should be in
accordance with his conscience.
Now, a teacher who is in the Communist Party is not a free agent.
No matter how intelligent he may be, when he enters the party he
" See p. 521 for correction ; name should be Sidney Weinbaum.
518 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
a^i^reos to acce|)t the direction of the Communist Party as to what he
should think, when he shoukl think it, without demur and without a
why. He is not a free agent intellectually, and he is not a free agent
morally. I don't see how, really — I have come to the conclusion that
with a practicing Communist I don't see how it can be a question of
academic freedom at all. I think that a teacher who is at the present
time, let us say, a practicing Communist is a person w^ho is under the
direction of the Communist Party to teach not the truth as he sees it^
but the truth as the Communist Party sees it, as far as possible.
Mr. ScHERER. May I interrupt, Mr. Chairman and counsel?
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Professor, from your experience, do you feel that a
person who remains in the Communist Party today, after all that
has transpired, should teach in our public schools or anywhere else?
Mr. Herndon. I don't know what is in a man's mind, but a person
who is considering what has happened in the Communist Party
Mr. Scherer. I say after all that has transpired. I make that
qualification.
Mr. Herndon. I don't see how he can stay in.
Mr. Scherer. I think perhaps you might agree with Lewis Webster
Jones, who is the president of Rutgers University. Rutgers Uni-
versity is one of the best universities in this country.
Unfortunately, the university had to act within the last few months
to remove from the faculty a number of its members. In connection
with the removal of those members, the president of Rutgers made a
statement, which has been reduced to pamphlet form and which is
entitled "Academic Freedom and Civic Responsibility."
In the past the committee has, as you perhaps know, been attacked
from various sources by prominent educators on the ground that by
investigating persons who are engaged in Communist activities in the
teaching profession we are interfering with academic freedom. In
that connection I think it would be well, Mr. Chairman, to ask this-
witness if he agrees in the conclusions drawn by President Jones of
Rutgers.
I just have 2 or 3 paragraphs which are along the lines which
you have just testified. The president snjs in his statement, first:
The legal right of any citizen to refuse to testify on the grounds of possible
self-incrimination as provided under the fifth amendment is not in dispute,
though the legal as well as the moral wisdom of exercising it is open to serious
doubt.
And then he continues :
The Communist Party is not a political party like any other. It is a secret
conspir:itorial organization imposing on its members a discipline and regimen-
tation of thought quite alien to the normal political parties of a democracy. Its^
standards of ethics are radically different from the ethical principles on which
in a free society freedom of thought, freedom of research and of teaching are
based. The university must insist on tolerance of honestly held and frankly-
proclaimed differences of opinion, and its faculty must be free to engage in
ordinary oi;en political activity, but it must protect itself and cooperate in
protecting the country against any conspii-acy which, if successful, would destroy
that freedom. It is unreasonable to deny that there is a real danger of Commu-
nist subversion or to dismiss all public concern with Communist activity as
hysteria. The public has the right, through its legally constituted representa-
tives, to inquire into the Communist Party membership of individuals. Public
investigation of the universities is legitimate and should be frankly met. It
implies no invasion of academic freedom.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 519
I jii§t don't want to labor the point too mncli, bnt finally he says in
another paragraph :
It follows that for the members of a university faculty to give a rational
account of their positions on vital community issues not only cannot he defended
by an appeal to academic freedom, but in fact except for such academic free-
dom, which is the only weapon of defense we are given, the entire aeademic
community must suffer accordingly.
Now, from your experience, would you concur in the statements
made by the president of Rutgers University with reference to this
subject and the subject about which you have just been testifying?
Mr. Herndon. I took notes as you were reading, and I think I can
agree with the president of Rutgers on all of his points.
Mr. Jackson. I think in that connection Rutgers is a long way
off in point of miles, but within the past few days the heads of the
great California institutions, the University of California, Dr. Sproul ;
the University of California at Los Angeles, Dr. Allen; and the presi-
dent of Stanford University up north, have all joined in effect in
the position taken by Dr. Lewis Webster Jones, and it is a matter of
great satisfaction to me and to my colleague from California, Mr.
Doyle, to know that these university presidents have taken that po-
sition with respect to the necessity for finding out where Communists
are in their schools and exposing them.
Mr. Clardy. I think it ought to be noted, Mr. Chairman, that while
we had some witnesses before us from the faculty of Rutgers, the
president and the entire school administration cooperated 100 percent
with us and expressed satisfaction with our motive and with the re-
sults of our investigation.
Mr. Jackson. Yes. I should also point out that the same is true also
of Ohio State University, Temple University, and Harvard Uni-
versity.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, may I make a further observation in
connection with that statement, particularly with reference to Ohio
State University?
In the mail this morning I receiAed a newspaper article* from the
Cincinnati Enquirer concerning Dr. Bevis' action with reference to
Prof. Byron T. Darling, who testified before this committee in
Washington just a few weeks ago, or as Mr. Clardy says refused to tes-
tify, which is perhaps more in line with the truth. And in view of
the fact that we are on this subject now and in view of the fact that
Professor Bevis has just spoken on that, I believe that what he said
should be at least included in the record at this point, for the benefit
of those who are here today at this point.
For the benefit of those who are here today. Prof. Byron T.
Darling is an outstanding professor at Ohio State University. Ho
is w^orking on a project for the United States Air Force in aerodv-
namics at Ohio University, and was receiving, until a few AveeKs
ago, part of his compensation from the Federal Government in con-
nection with tliat project for the Air Force.
He refused to answer on the ground that it might tend to incrimi-
nate him, whetlier or not he was a member of the Communist Party,
wliether he had ever been a member of the Communist Party, or
whether he at the present time was a member of the Communist Party,
or whether he had any classified information under his control at that
time of the United States Government, refused to answer whether
520 COMMUNIST ACTrVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
he had received any compensation from the Communist Party, and
Professor Bevis just yesterday or the day before, in a communica-
tion addressed to Professor Darling, said this :
Your refusal to answer these questions raises serious doubt as to your fitness
for the position you occupy. Doubt is raised as to your ability to answer these
questions truthfully without self-incrimination. Doubt is raised as to your
moral integrity. Doubt is cast upon your loyalty to your colleagues and the
integrity of the university itself.
There is also a serious implication of gross insubordination to the university
policy and of conduct clearly inimical to the best interests of the university.
There is quite a bit more, but tliey had reference to the transcript
of the testimony taken at that hearing, and Dr. Bevis further said
that he had studied the transcript of the testimony of Dr. Darling
before the Un-American Activities Committee, and said for this
reason he wished to inform him of the grounds upon which he might
find it necessary to remove him from the university and ask him to
present himself for a hearing.
Mr. Jackson. Counsel, just a moment. Mr. Doyle is seeking
recognition.
Mr. Doyle. Professor Herndon, a moment ago — and you correct me
if I am in error — did I understand you to say that a teacher in your
judgment should teach a subject according to his own conscience and
teach the truth? You so stated?
Mr. Herndon. Yes, sir,
Mr. Doyle. You also stated that a teacher in the Communist Party
membership was not a free agent, intellectually or morally.
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Now, if that is your conviction, why is not a Communist
Party member who happens to be a teacher or in the field of education,
why isn't he a free agent intellectually or morally? Do you imder-
stand my question? Why isn't he free? What difference does it
make whether he is a Communist Party member or not ?
Mr. Herndon. The Communist Party member takes his opinions
from the Communist Party leadership. They are not his own opin-
ions. They are the Communist Party opinions, and the Conmiunists
have an opinion on almost every subject under the sun.
Mr. Doyle. Do you mean then to tell me that the high-school boys
and girls in my native State of California, when they are being taught
by a man like you when you were a member of the Communist Party,
are being taught by a man who is not free to teach the truth ?
Mr. Herndon. It depends upon how many opportunities the teacher
has to put forth the Communist line. Naturally, some teachers in
certain subjects and on certain levels would have many more oppor-
tunities than other teachers.
Mr. Doyle. Well, we grant that, but is a member of the Communist
Party, who happens to teach in the California public schools, in your
judgment taking the opportunity to teach the Communist line as far
as he can? Is that his obligation?
Mr. Herndon. The obligation is to take opportunities to teach the
Communist Party line as far as he can without destroying his useful-
ness and exposing himself too obviously.
Mr. Doyle. In that case, then, he is absolutely prostituting the truth,
isn't he?
Mr. Herndon. Yes, he is.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 521
Ml^ "DoTLE. And that sort of thing lias been going on in other
California high schools, in your judgment, at least while you were
in the Connnunist Party, because you have given us other names
in addition to your own?
Mr. Herndon. It was, but while it is a serious danger, I think the
importance, if you don't exaggerate it — as I say, there were as of
the time I was in the party about 700 teachers in Glendale where I
come from, and I do not know of my own knowledge, I do not know
second-hand or third-hand or by the wildest hearsay of any other
Communists that there ever is or has been at Glendale.
So that while it is potentially dangerous
Mr. Doyle. Well, isn't it potentially dangerous if there is just one?
Mr. Herndok. It is.
Mr. Doyle. In our public schools teaching our children and youth,
isn't one too many ?
Mr. Herndon. One is too many.
Mr. Jackson. It is the intention of recalling the witness after lunch.
Would it be satisfactory to you to take the lunch recess now ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. I have some more questions of this witness after
lunch.
Mr. Jackson. The committee will stand in recess until 2 p. m.
( Thereupon, at 12 : 06 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m., same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 2: 05 p. m., of the same day, the proceedings were
resumed, with the subcommittee present, composed of Representatives
Kit Clardy (chairman) and Gordon H. Scherer.)
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in order.
Mr. TA^^2NNER. Mr. Herndon, will you return to the stand, please?
TESTIMONY OF IE EOY TRAVERS HERNDON, JR.— Resumed
Mr. Herndon. Mr. Herndon, you testified this morning regarding
the Communist Party unit at Pasadena, I believe.
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I asked you to name the persons that you could
positively identify.
Mr. Herndon. And I named an instructor at Caltech, and I said he
was Sidney Weinberg, which was a slip of the tongue. I meant to
saj^ Sidney Weinbaum, We-i-n-b-a-u-m.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Do you think you identify the photograph of
Sidney Weinbaum, if you saw it ?
Mr. Herndon. I think so.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photograph, and I ask that it be
marked and I offer it in evidence as Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. Clardy. Herndon Exhibit No. 1 ?
Mr. Tavenner. Herndon Exhibit 1.
Mr. Clardy. It will be received.
(The photograph referred to was marked "Herndon Exhibit No.
1," and was received in evidence.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine it and state whose photograph
it is?
Mr. Herndon. That is a photograph of the man I knew as Sidney
Weinbaum.
522 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
■ Mr. Ta\^nnkr. I want to call to your attention one further excerpt
from the article written by Richard Frank and entitled "The School
and the People's Front," which appeared in the Communist of May
1937. This statement was made :
To enable the teachers and the party to do the latter
and by "latter" was meant to furnish to the students working class
education.
the party must take careful steps to see that all teacher comrades are given
thorough education in the teachings of Marxism and Leninism.
Did you consider that instruction was being carried out in your
cell, that you were being given teachings in Marxism and Leninism?
Mr. Herndon. I considered that that was a party ideal. I do not
think that in my time in the party it was thoroughly carried out.
Mr. Tavenner. And continuing to read :
Only when teachers have really mastered Marxism and Leninism will they be
able skillfully to inject it into their teachings at the least risk of exposure,
and at the same time to conduct struggles around the schools in a truly Bol-
shevik manner. Such teachers can also be used to advantage to conduct classes
in Marxism, Leninism, for workers generally, and many such teachers should
be assigned not to school units, but to factory or industrial units where they can
have great aid in party education, in helping with leaflets, shop papers, and so
forth. Others can play an important role in the educational activities of the
Young Communist League.
Now, I have during the course of your testimony asked you various
questions to indicate to what extent those very objectives were being
carried out or fostered in your group. If you have anything further
to say about it, I will be glad to hear it.
Mr. Herndon. That is the Communist of May 1937 ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Herndon. Well, I joined late in the fall of 1937, and at that
time, as I said this morning, the policy of the party was to keep the
teachers in a teacher unit, for instance, and not put them out one by
one, scatter them out in shop and factory units.
Mr. Tavenner. I find, also, this interesting paragraph in Mr.
Frank's article :
In rural communities teachers who are among the few educated people are
looked up to with tremendous respect, they are in a position to become community
leaders. As a means of mobilizing the people in the villages and the country-
side, steps should be taken to try to send Communist teachers into rural com-
munities where they should become active in all community organizations.
Mr. Herndon. May I say something on that ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Herndon. It sounds as if it might be a translation from — that
doesn't sound like an American rural community to me. It sounds like
a translation from something written for some other country.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, that was contained in the article appearing
in the Communist of May 1937, entitled "The Schools and the People's
Front" by Richard Frank, who, as I have stated before, was a member
of the education committee of the Young Communist League.
Mr. Herndon. Of the United States ?
Mr. Tavenner. Of the United States. That apparently is one of
the basic and underlying — that indicates something of the basic and
underlying policies of the Communist Party, and of course we are
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA 523
interested to know how or to what extent it was transhited into the
activities of your particuLir group, if at alL
. Mr. Herndon. I work in a rather highly literate community in
which a good many people think they are just as smart as the teachers,
so I don't think there was too much application in my particular
case, nor in the case of the teachers unit in Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. You saw no indication of any planned effort to be
certain tliat the teachers who went into the rural areas were Com-
munist teachers?
Mr. Herndon. I had no contact with teachers in rural areas.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, near the close of the morning session a state-
ment was made and a statement was also read into the record regard-
ing the attitude of the president of Rutgers University on the general
subject of Communist activities among teachers.
Now, when you received your subpena to appear before this com-
mittee, did you report it to your superiors?
Mr. Herndon. I reported it to the president of the board of educa-
tion. In fact, I had spoken to him, told him that I might, I thought,
receive a subpena, before I received it.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the general attitude of your superiors as
to your appearance here and your divulgence of the fact that you had
formerly been a member of the party ?
Mr. Herndon. Well, I should say that their first concern probably
was — I am inferring this — that their first concern probably was the
welfare of the school system as a whole. I think that was their first
concern.
Mr. Tavenner. Speak a little louder, please.
Mr. Herndon. Aside from that, the school board was interested in
knowing when I joined the party, how long I had been in the party,
why I had gotten in in the first place, and why I had gotten out. I
think that is about the substance.
Mr. Tavenner. And did you make a full disclosure to them of what
your prior activities had been ?
Mr. Herndon. I did. I made a statement for them and answered
to the best of my ability any questions they had.
Mr. Tavenner. As a result of your good faith in coming forward
and telling what you know or being willing to tell what you know
about the Communist Party, I understand your position with your
teaching institution is satisfactory ?
Mr. Herndon. The administration has been helpful and friendly.
Mr. Scherer. I think the committee would feel that the administra-
tion should be helpful and friendly, and not invoke any sanctions of
any kind whatsoever against the professor.
Mr. Tavenner. As the members of the committee well know, that
has been the way in which this type of information has been received
and acted upon by a number of other institutions. Smith College is
one that I have in mind.
Mr. Scherer. Yes, sir, I think we would even reconmaend that, if
it was in our province to do so in this instance, don't you, Mr. Clardy ?
Mr. Clardy. Definitely.
Mr. Taatsnner. In other words, a citizen's effort to be truthful and
fair in a serious matter of this kind is a patriotic duty.
Mr. Ci^RDY, That is the way every member of the committee re-
gards it, Mr. Counsel, and I want to express that to you, Mr. Witness,
524 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGEX.BS AREA
})ecause we Wcint to encourage people like youi-self who have educated'
themselves out of the false position which they initially took and have
readied the position which you have reached, where you underetand
what communism really would mean to this country. I think you
are doing a patriotic service, and I say that not (mly to you, but
through you, to all those who, like yourself, would like to be encour-
aged into that attitude.
Mr. Tavennp:r. Mr. Chairman, isn't it a rather general fact, that is,,
when a witness testifies and by his testimony you can observe the
character and trust^^•orthiness which would convince you that his
statements are truthful, and that they are made in good faith, that
that is one of the prime considerations?
Mr. Clardy. Definitely, and I think we have all observed a consid-
erable difference between those who cooperate on this point.
Mr. ScHERER. Those wlio don't indicate. to- us,- 1 think that they are
still part of the conspiracy.
Mr. Clardy. That is a natural conclusion, Mr. Scherer.
Mr, Scherer. You don't have to be smart to come to that conclusion..
Mr. Clardy. Not very.
Mr. Scherer. That is the reason I came to it.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe, Mr. Herndon, that that covers everything
that I had intended to ask you. Just a minute. The committee may
have something.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Scherer, do you have some questions?
Mr. Scherer. No, I have no questions. I covered them this morning.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Herndon, to try to draw together some of the
loose threads here and more or less paint the picture in its entirety
with a few brush strokes, and bearing in mind the things that were
read to you this morning by my colleague Mr. Scherer, from the
president of Rutgers, I would like to ask you this :
Don't you think that the recruiting of teachers into the Communist
Party apparatus does present an especial threat because of the posi-
tion that the teachers occupy and the respect that they have in th&
community, and the almost unequaled opportunity for them both
within and without the school to insidiously s])read the doctrine
without appearing to do so. In other words, following out your
testimony, to do it without betraying themselves — does that, to re-
phrase my question, pose an especial threat to our form of govern-
ment, and, to get down to the question, doesn't the need increase for
an exposure and for a revelation of those things ?
Mr. Herndon. I think that a teacher occupies a position of public
trust.
Mr. Clardy. Much as a lawyer does as an officer of the court.
Mr. Herndon. In some ways it is more important.
Mr. Ci^^RDY. I agree with you.
Mr. PIerndon. You have young people whoni you can impress.
Mr. Clardy. You have young minds that can be molded, in other
words.
Mr. Herndon. You have.
Mr. Clardy. Go ahead.
Mr. Herndon. I think that — and I am mindful of the statement —
T tliiiik that the weakness of the Communist position is shown by
the numerically small proportion, by the very few number of teachers,
as far as my experience has been, that can be recruited into the party.
COMMUNIST ACTHITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 525
I think, however, that while quantitatively it shows the weakness
of the Communist Party, nevertheless, qualitatively it is a dreadful
thing.
Mr. Clardy. In other words, it is very like planting one time bomb.
It is one bomb, but it can do a lot of damage if it eventually explodes.
Mr. Herndon. It is like a seed, depending upon how big it might
grow.
Mr. Clardy. It is like a cancer, which starts small and eventually
destroys the whole body. Would you say that is the case ?
Mr. Herndon. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Then would you not agree, Mr. Witness, that if that
danger can be laid open so the ]:)ublic will understand fairly and
completely what it is, that not only is academic freedom not under
s*^attack but is rather being preserved ?
Mr. Herndon. Kather being strengthened.
Mr. Clardy. Do you have any more?
Mr. ScHERER. May I follow that up with just one question?
Mr. Clardy. Yes.
Mr. SciiERER. I think the professor has already answered it, but
there is nothing in your experience before this committee or in your
contact with the staff of this committee that has interfered in any
way with your academic freedom, is there?
Mr. Herndon. No.
Mr. Scherer. Not in the least ?
Mr. Herndon. No. May I amplify that?
Mr. Clardy. I wish you would.
Mr. Herndon. It has given me a little peace of mind.
Mr. Clardy. In other words, you have unburdened yourself of
something which has probably troubled you for a long time.
Mr. Herndon, That is quite so.
Mr. Clardy. I say this in parting to you, I think the sort of people
like you are doing an essentially patriotic service to their country.
We have had quite a few like you. We have had a number of that
type here and we have had a number of them in the hearing before
m Washington, who, like yourself, are most articulate and under-
standable witnesses, who have said much the same thing you did.
In fact, we have a considerable amount of testimony from people
like yourself along that same line, and it gave me considerable peace
of mind to hear you say what you have just said, sir.
Do you have any further questions?
Mr. Tavenner. No further questions.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Witness, we thank you.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, before calling the witness I have two
telegrams which I think should be read.
Mr. Clardy. You may read them.
Mr. Tavenner (reading) :
Chairman, House Committee Un-American Activities :
I 'Would like to have it known that the Fred Bernbach mentioned in the testi-
mony of David Lang is a different person than Arthur Bernbach who has been
serving as Chief of the Berling Legal Division of the United States Department.
Mr. Clardy. State Department, isn't it ?
Mr. Tavenner. It is intended, I guess, to be State Department.
Mr. Clardy. That is the way it looked to me.
526 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner (continuing to read) :
For the past 8 years has been a member of the legal family of Bernbach in
Detroit and Los Angeles.
And then I have a telegram to the House Un-American Activities
Committee, Congressman Jackson :
My name is Frank Gammon and I am employed in the motion picture industry.
I live at IGol West 6Gth Street, Los Angeles 47, I would like to have it announced
that I am not connected in any way with Simon Lazarus or the Robert Gammot.
whose name was mentioned at your meeting of yesterday.
Sincerely,
Robert Frank Gammon.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to call at this time Richard B. Lewis.
Mr. Clardy. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Dr. Lewis. I do.
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD BYRD LEWIS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ?
Dr. Lewis. Richard Byrd Lewis, L-e-w-i-s.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell your middle name ?
Dr. Lewis. B-y-r-d.
Mr. Tax'enner. Are you accompanied by counsel?
Dr. Lewis. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. You understand, of course, you have the right to
have counsel here, the committee grants that privilege to every wit-
ness ?
Dr. Lewis. -Yes. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Clardy. You prefer to proceed alone ?
Dr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Dr. Lewis. Porterville, Calif., December 7, 1908.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ?
Dr. Lewis. I am a teacher, college teacher.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?
Dr. Lewis. Yes. I went through Hamper Union High School. I
graduated there. Got a B, A. degree from San Jose State College in
1930, master's degree from Stanford, postgraduate work done in
1934, 1935, and my degree awarded in 1937 after completing the thesis,
and the doctor's degree awarded from Stanford University in 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. How are you now employed ?
Dr. Lewis. I am a professor at San Jose State College at San Jose,
Calif.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in teaching at
that institution ?
Dr. Lewis. Since the fall of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you tell the committee briefly what your
other employment has been as a teacher ?
Dr. Lewis. The years preceding my work at San Jose State College j
I worked in a staff capacity for a commission, a lay commission in^
California called the State Commission on School Districts. I did
that from the period after the war until I went to San Jose.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 527
The preceding 3yo years I was in the United States Navy a com-
missioned officer and came out a lieutenant commander. Before that
1 taught from 1935 to 1942, before I went in the Navy, at Glendale
College at Glendale, Calif.
Before that I had taught part time in the evenings durmg the early
thirties in the adult school in San Jose while I was employed in the
daytime as a truckdriver and warehouseman,
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time?
Dr. Lewis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Over how long a period of time were you in the
party ?
Dr. Lewis. Well, my recollection of it is it was around the end of
the year 1935 or the beginning of the year 1936, until about late in 1939
or early 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, during that period of time you were engaged
in the teaching profession, I believe?
Dr. Lewis. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, the circum-
stances under which you joined the party ?
Dr. Lewis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. That is, the Communist Party.
Dr. Lewis. Right. Wlien I finished my graduate work first in
1935 I had gone through a period of years in which I had difficulty in
getting started in my profession. A great many people had in the
early thirties.
I was somewhat frustrated and was ambitious, but it was a difficult
thing to get a start. For that reason I went back to Stanford.
During the period of my education there I became aware of the fact
the Teachers' Union was in activity. It appealed to me as probably
a very worthwhile organization that was working for the interests of
the teaching profession.
When I came to southern California I looked up the Teachers'
Union in Los Angeles and became a member. Being somewhat, I
would say, an eager beaver I became known because I talked and took
part, and I was interested and I found I was being included in caucus
discussions. Small groups of people would get together and talk about
the problems of the union and some of the program that was being
carried on. It was sort of a gravitational thing.
I found one evening, through this particular group meeting, that
evening, there was a unit of the Communist Party in the Teachers'
Union and would I like to be a member and I said "Yes."
I would like to say, gentlemen, that I think there is, as other wit-
nesses have indicated who have talked with you freely as I do, that
it is not a very easy thing to talk about these things, because
you feel so foolish afterwards. You look back and say you don't
know how a person could do that. But it looked so easy and seemed so
unimportant at the time. In that period it was easy just to say,
"This looks like a fine thing."
I would like to also point out the one thing about communism I
discovered, after considerable time, that it takes many phases and has
appeals to almost any kind of interest. A person wdio has an enthusi-
asm for doing a job in a field that is important to people, there is
usually a place for him to work where communism has a part.
528 COMMUNIST ACTrV^TIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
I found that at the time, and I have no regrets about this, and I
don't think anyone else will either, who worked in it, that at the time
we felt that the Teachers' Union was trying to do something for the
teaching profession and for the schools. We weren't thinking so
much about the ultimate ends that connnunism had intended for us,
and we were pretty unaware of them, I think. At any rate, that is
how we got in. You sort of gravitated in from the union.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Your induction into the Communist Party is inter-
esting because I believe you are about the first witness who got into
the Communist Party from the Teachers' Union, who has been before
us. In all the other instances that have been called to our attention
the individuals were members of the Communist Party which were
attempting to infiltrate the Teachers' Union.
Dr. Lew^is, I see.
Mr. Tavenner. So you are a direct product, apparently
Dr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Tavennek. Of that Communist Party effort, because you were
led from the Teachers' Union into the party.
Now, when you speak of the Teachers' Union, what local w^as it that
you joined ?
Dr. Lewis. It was the Los Angeles local. I forget the number; 430,
I think it was.
Mr. Tavenner. 480.
Dr. Lewis. I think it was.
Mr. Ta\'t:nner. AVill you give the committee an idea of the member-
ship of teachers in that union ?
Dr. Lewis. I have tried to remember that, I think that the en-
rolled membership at its peak was probably not over — I am guessing
at it now — it Avas about 400, 1 would say.
Mr. Tavenner. About 400 ?
Dr. Lewis. About 400. There were some, I suppose, 8,000 to 10,000
teachers in Los Angeles, and the people in the area around that local,
as I recall it, represented the, Los Angeles County area, as a whole.
I think, as Mr. Herndon pointed out, the attendance at meetings was
somewhere between a 100 and 200 usually.
Mr. Tavenner. How many Communist Party members were there
in your cell or group of the Communist Party ?
Dr. Lewis. My recollection of it at any one time is that it probably
wasn't more than a dozen at the most, sometimes fewer. There may
have been 1 or 2 more. There were always at least, my recollection is,
about 10 or 12.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether there were any other Com-
munist Party units or groups within your local consisting of 400
members ?
Mr. Lewis. If there was one, I didn't know about it, I was not
.aware of it. I don't think there was.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell the connnittee how many locals of
the Teachers' Union there were in the State of California at that
time ?
Mr. Lewis. At that time, my l)est recollection of it is that there were
probably 4 or 5, perhaps, T think. I am just guessing at this. I am
not sure, to tell you the truth.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give the connnittee the names of the areas
or anv other title or name that the locals had?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 529
JVIr. Lewis. Well, I am pretty sure there was 1 in Sacramento, and
I think there was 1 in Palo Alto, and I think there was 1 in San Diego.
And I don't know Avhether there was 1 in San Jose, or not. I really
don't know. I wasn't aware of it when I was there.
Those are the only ones I would suspect, but even then I am guessing,
because I am not too sure of the period.
Mr. Ta\ ENNER. Do you have any information or general knowledge
as to the membership of the Teachers' Union in these various locals
or in the State as a whole ?
Mr. Lewis. No, sir. I was in a position where I probably should
have knoAvn that, but I don't recall. I would guess that in the State —
I am just guessing now — I would guess in the State there would
probably be around maybe 900 or 1,000 members of the Teachers'
Union throughout the State. That is a guess.
Mr. Tavenner. You say you were in a position where you ought
to have known. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Lewis. Well, what I mean was at one time I was acting as State
secretary for the State Federation of Teachers, for a short period.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at that
time ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, I believe I was.
Mr. Tavenner. To what extent was the Communist Party respon-
sible for your election to that office, if any ?
Mr. Lewis. That is something 1 can't tell you, sir. A person who,
as I said before, is something of an eager beaver gets put into posi-
tions where he will do a job if he is willing to work, and I had a lot
of energy, and I don't know quite how I got there, to tell you the truth,
and I can't remember when I first was or when I got over it, you know,
but I was in there for a short period, and I somewhat have a feeling
or recollection, in fact, I wasn't very efficient at it, because I had a
great many other interests and responsibilities, and I suspect that I
didn't do very well at it. That is why I say I was in a position where
I shouJd have known, and if I had known my business better I prob-
ably could have told you how many members there were.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell the committee what in your judgment
was tlie principal interest of this Communist Party group to which
you were affiliated?
Mr. Lewis. Well, my recollection of it is that the primary interest
of this Communist Party group was the Teachers' Union, that was its
primary function. It was concerned with the things that teachers
were concerned about, teacher welfare, retirement, tenure, and so on.
The second facet of its program, of course, was the study of com-
munism and its function in American life.
Those two phases of the work.
I think Mr. Herndon brought it out, as you know he and I were in
there together for quite a while, as you can see from our dates, we
weren't very much students, we were more concerned with the present.
We had come out of the depression and we were concerned with the
teachers and the teaching situation in the schools, and as a result our
studies were secondary, in my opinion, they certainly were with me,
to the job I felt that was important in the schools themselves, which
was working with teachers to improve the teaching profession, which,
31747— 53— pt. 2 7
530 COM]MTJ]SriST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
by the way, I think is a worthy motive. Some things hang on to
where the motives sometimes are not worthy.
Mr. Jackson. Do you think it is a matter of gi'eat concern to the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Lewis. I think at the time — my recollection of it, sir, is that I
don't think at that time it was of much concern. Maybe I was wrong.
Maybe I didn't know. And I possibly didn't. But I felt that we were
isolants, that we were isolated from the main stream of the party, and
one of the reasons for that is that we had so seldom ever seen anyone
who could be called a party official in our group, and we had prac-
tically no contact with them, as far as I know. It was, as I say, out
of the main stream.
Mr. Jackson. I don't know whether I made the import of my ques-
tion absolutely clear. Do you think that the plight of teachers gen-
erall}^, with respect to pay and working standards and things of that
sort, was actually a matter of deep concern to the Connnunist Party?
Mr. Lewis. I see what you mean.
I think, insofar as they were interested in teachers, they were in-
terested in using any, let's say, susceptibility of a group's concern as
something to hang their program on.
Mr. Jackson. As they parallel the minority groups or parallel
Adolf Hitler, or parallel any number of other things toward the ulti-
mate goal of the party ?
Mr. Lewis. That is what I would say, sir, yes, that they had used —
in any group of people you can find something that is important to
them. Take that important thing and hang your program on it, and
go along with it, and you have the people.
Mr. Jackson. You pick up a lot of people along the way doing it?
Mr. Lewis. Yes. And very many innocent people, too.
And I hope you gentlemen appreciate that in my comments on the
Teachers' Union I want to be sure that you understand I don't feel
there were lots of Communists in the Teachers' Union, but a lot of
people who were seriously, sincerely concerned in the welfare of the
teaching profession and felt that was a good way to help it, and
probably were completely unaware, except possibly in rare moments,
if even at all, that they were being guided in any way.
I want to make that clear. Because there are such people, many
of them.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, and that is one reason why I brought out the
exact facts about the membership.
Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner (continuing). Of the union and the membership
of the Communist Party.
Were you present during the taking of the testimony of Mr. Hern-
don?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I do not want to descend to the same particulars in
questioning 3'ou, because I think it would be pretty much of a repe-
tition
Mr. Lewis. It would, sir.
Mr. Tavi{:nner. So I will ask you just a few general questions.
First of all, I would like for you to tell me in a general way any-
thing, any knowledge that you have about the actual workings of your
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 531
gi'oup, which would indicate its line of interest, and how it functioned,
how the party functioned, which would be of interest to the committee.
Mr. Lewis. I would like to highlight anything that I can think of
that Mr. Herndon hasn't covered, rather than repeat it. I think
probably I would just have to say briefly what is in the forefront of
my mind as to how it operated, and let it go at that, if that is agreeable.
It seems to me, first accepting the fact, which I think I can say is
completely true, we were as a small group not a gi-oup of revolution-
aries working hard for a revolution, we were a bunch of teachers who
were seeking solutions to frustrations and problems that we had had
during our depression experience. I thought a lot of them felt that
way.
The fact that I am here and confident in what I am saying is based
partly upon the fact that I am sure others feel the way I do.
So our operation was largely directed, and my feeling about it
was that it was largely directed toward guiding the union in its
policies and programs.
Now, at the same time, as Mr. Herndon pointed out to you, we did
have program points and policies that came along that related to
world affairs that we were, of course, pressed to bring forward and
present to the people of the group.
As you know, almost any organization will take a position on cer-
tain public matters, and the Teachers' Union was no exception. And,
of course, like most of us, we were at that time concerned about Ger-
many, Ave were concerned about Spain. Very few were concerned
about Russia at the moment. Our concerns were directed toward the
other situations. And, consequently, there were proposals for reso-
lutions and for letters to people supporting such actions as seemed
to be right in that direction.
Mr. Jackson. May I interrupt ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jackson. Were those actions, your actions, the result of dis-
cussion and debate on certain policies, or were your actions the result
of instruction and directives which reached you from outside sources ?
Mr. Lewis. I think there was some of both, sir, but I think the
outside source is the sparkplug. In other words, directives were
brought in which indicated that the thinking at the present moment
was so and so. That is what I think, if I may use the word — maybe
it is not a good one — disenchanted a lot of people who thought that
the Communist Party represented a very fine advancement of democ-
racy. We were sold some very fine w^ords along that line. Since
that was one of the feelings that people had, that we had at the time,
these proposals that came in, many of them, were along the lines that
many people felt were the right thing, you see. We w^ere against,
isms, against facism, against oppression, against any big man taking
on a little man, oppression of all kinds, and, as a matter of fact, as
I say, we weren't a violent group of people. I think personally the
closest I have ever come to violence was wrestling on TV. I mean we^
weren't talking in terms of revolution, but the ideas that we were
bringing forward were ideas that were common to a great many
people at the time, but they did come as directives :
Here is a program, there is going to be a meeting, here we are to support
this group.
532 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
And I would say there was discussion about it, and usually a rather
automatic acceptance of what had been brought in, as it must be all
right, you see.
Mr. Tavenner. By acceptance, you are referring to acceptance by
the Comnumist Party members i
Mr. Lewis. The group in that small group. I am not talking about
the union, sir.
You weren't speaking about that, were your, sir, when you asked,
Congressman? You "^'eren't talking about the union; you were talk-
ing about the party group ?
Mr. Jackson. I was talking about the party group.
Mr. Lewis. That is what I was talking about.
Mr. SciiERER. You say you didn't discuss any revolutionary theories.
It would have been suicide, would it not, for the party functionaries
to discuss revolutionary theories with a group of teachers at that
date?
Mr. Lewis. I think possibly that that is one reason we saw so little
of them, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. They were too smart to talk about that ?
Mr. Lewis. And we weren't pressed to move out into those conflict
areas.
We were like this: They knew we were — may I sort of jump ahead
to the end product? I would like to say this, because I think it points
your statement, sir. After I dropped out of this thing I have never
once had anyone come to me and ask me to come back. I never had a
union member ask me why I didn't rejoin the union or come back to
the union. In other words, I feel sincerely that this was true, that
in the party structure we were looked upon as, maybe, a group that
ought to be developed, and I think in the statements that you read,
Mr. Tavenner, the party accepted the fact that it was a responsibility
to develop the teachers and the professional groups. But I think we
were a matter of minor interest to the main stream of party activity
in this area. There were bigger fish frying than about 12 teachers,
if you see what I mean.
Does that follow your question, sir ?
Mr. ScHERER. You mean there were priorities in this ?
Mr. Lewis. That's right, there were priorities and more valuable
contributions. That is my recollection and feeling of the period.
Mr. Scherer. This Avas just a softening-u]) process, as far as your
group was concerned?
Mr. Lewis. I think so, sir.
Mr. Clardy. And to feel their way into the teachers' group ?
Mr. Leavis. That's right.
Mr. Clardy. Feel how far they could go without defeating their
purpose ?
Mr. Lewis. I think that is probably correct, or without losing the
potential values.
Mr. Clardy. Sort of fattening you up for the slaughter a little
later on ?
Mr. Lewis. I think so, sir.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point, 2: 45 p. m.)
Mr. Tavenner. What was your subject in school as a teacher?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 533
Mr. Lewis. As a teacher?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; what was your specialty ?
Mr. Lewis. I have clone a number of things, sir. Public speaking,
for one thing, oral interpretation, reading; in college I am working
now in the field of training aids, audiovisual materials, instructional
materials. That was my work in the Navy, too.
Mr. Tavenner. To what extent was the subject of influencing the
pupil or students discussed in your Communist Party meetings, if
at all ?
Mr. Lewis. My recollection of that, Mr. Tavenner, was that it wasn't
discussed. I think it was sort of assumed, probablj^ by the party,
I assume they assumed that we were party members who would carry
the word whenever and wherever we could.
In the teachers' unit, that small group, my recollection of the only
thin,2s that were discussed that seemed important at the time were
such things as salary schedules and retirement, teacher security, and
the fact that we felt the schools should be improved as much as
possible.
My feeling, too, was that in this particular group — and this is only
natural to people who had come through a teacher training prepara-
tion and were working in the teaching profession — that they were
concerned about the welfare of children, about having good education
and good schools. I think that is automatic with teachers. And I
don't recall strategy conferences on how do you affect the children. I
don't liave any recollection of any such incidents in that group.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you consider, if your Communist Party group
had carried out the purposes for which the Communist Party organ-
ized your particular group, that you would have endeavorecl to lead
tlie students in any way in your course of training?
Mr. Lewis. I think it is entirely conceivable, judging from the lit-
erature you have quoted today, and some of the things you mentioned,
that that inevitably was Avhat was expected of us, I think it is in-
evitable. And I think present history has borne that out.
Mr. Tavenner. But you have no personal knowledge of any effort
that was made by any of your group to actually influence the students
noticeably?
Mr. Lewis. No ; I wouldn't say so, sir.
Let's say this, however : I think we must be very cautious to indi-
cate that anybody is an entity, a personality is complete, a person
who has thoughts along certain lines, it seems to me, reveals those
thoughts by his reactions, the eyebrows he raises at the wrong time or
right time, so it would be folly to say that we didn't influence or try
to influence, because even subconsciously a person might have brought
forth a viewpoint toward one thing or another, because of its im-
portance, that could have planted a seed, you see. So I wouldn't say
that we didn't.
But what I did say was — and I believe this is true in my recollection
of it — there was no planning, "This we will do next, and we will get
tlie kids to think this, and then we will get the kids to think that."
That wasn't done.
Mr. Clardy. Wasn't that largely because they knew they were deal-
ing with an intellectual group who could be relied on to work out
their own devices and plans to promote the party policy ?
534 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr, Lewis. I suspect that may have been so. And it also may
have been — I think that's right. I don't know what they thought,
really, and we hadn't thought about what they thought, either.
Mr. Clardy. Wouldn't you say that they probably planted the orig-
inal seed in your minds and then left the tactics more or less up to
you within some broad general limits which they established?
Mr. Lewis. I think, sir, we were what you might call a highly au-
tonomous group. I don't think they knew much about us or about
how we worked, or what we could do, but they left it up to us, as you
say, I think that's right, in the teacher group.
Mr. Tavenner. Your value to the Communist Party or the value
of your group went back largely to the question of your own indoc-
trination into the principles of the Communist Party, and therefore
3^our influence on your associates in that manner?
Mr. Lewis. I think so. I think that's right, sir ; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I would be very glad to have you describe, in any
way it occurs to you that you should do so, what you think of the use
of an active Communist Party member today as a teacher in our public
schools, or any schools, for that matter.
Mr. Lewis. The thing that you were discussing with Mr. Herndon ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Lewis. Right.
I have formulated over a number of years a very strong feeling
about that, and it ties up very much with what Herndon said.
In the first place, I am a great believer in what we have called aca-
demic freedom. But I think what Herndon pointed out, and what I
would like to repeat here, is that we are pretty clearly in mind now,
and I think everybody in this audience is clearly in mind, that you
are not a freethinker when you follow party policy. We were deluded,
Mr. Tavenner, once upon a time, to believe quite honestly that the
Communist Party was almost the most democratic thing that God
had created, although He didn't have anything to do with it in this
instance, but it was democratic. And we have since found perfectly
clearly that the orders come from above. It is not autocracy, it is a
militaristic type of structure.
Now, how can a person defend himself in the name of academic
freedom when he is receiving orders from someone else and has to
follow the line or get out or be hurt?
It seems to me, then, with the logic that way, that we have on one
hand we must respect the fact that there is a concept of academic
freedom, which does not provide us with the opportunity to have
academic license, which means to pass on orders that have been
handed to us, on to other people, just as a matter of handing it out.
So, in short, then, I don't see how a person today could be an active
Communist and be useful as a teacher in our country.
Mr. Scherer. That is one question I didn't have to ask.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, those of you who have finally awakened, of
course, obviously came out from under the opiate rather gradually,
as other witnesses have expressed, and as you have inferred: Don't:
you think that probably you lose the proper concept of academic
freedom somewhat in reverse order, that gradually you submerged
your own personality into that of the party line? In other words,
they gave you orclere of small importance first, and gradually in-
creased it, as someone goes on the dope, so to speak ?
COIVCVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 535
Mr. Lewis. I think probably, sir, that could be described as the
evolution of it.
I think one thing could be made clear here, and I think this should
be of comfort to other people who might want to come before you
sometime. I think they recognize that you recognize that a person
doesn't just suddenly become one and then suddenly stop becoming
one. You sort of go along through a period of evolution while you
are having troubles, or something else, like we did in the depression
years, and many of us had j^ersonal difficulties, and you find things
that you grope for to help you, and these look good, and that is the
time those boys move in on you, when you are groping. Then when
the time comes that you see it isn't all like it looked, then you begin
to move out again, and you don't just chop it off, but you start wres-
tling with it, you see, and it takes time.
Mr. ScHERER. Hasn't your experience indicated that the party, even
today, is trying to create dissensions in order that it can move into
certain groups, and therein create dissension among people?
Mr. Lewis. That's right.
Mr. ScHERER. So it can move in ?
Mr. Lewis. It feeds on them.
Mr. ScHERER. In 1939 our economic system perhaps provided those
frustrations without the party's help ?
Mr. Lewis. That's right.
Mr. ScHERER. Now they set minority against majority to create
those things to enable them to move in, is that a correct statement ?
Mr. Lewis. I think that is true.
I am not aware how it is functioning today, except I read what I
read in the papers. But I think that is good enough guide for me.
I do say this, it is one of the reasons — now, mind you, I want to be
careful about this, because I don't want to cause any misunderstanding,
there are many people right now who believe that the trade-union ap-
proach to teachers' organization is a good one, and I am not criticizing
that fact at all, I believe if they want to believe that they should ; how-
ever, my personal feeling, one of the things that got me out of the
Communist Party was my reaction to the fact that the trade-union
philosophy, with all due respect to labor, the trade-union philosophy
was not the kind of organization for the teaching profession, for sev-
eral reasons that to me are very sound.
Number 1, we teach all the children of all the people.
Number 2, we represent rather a unique kind of function in our
society, in which we are representing all the people through a board
of education, through school administrators, and through the teachers
who have just one job, and that is giving good education to children.
Therefore, the trade-union concept of separating employment from
management as a bargaining function causes a breakdown in the co-
ordination necessary to make good schools, which is based upon full
understanding and coordination of the board, which is the public, the
teachers, and the administrators.
Do I make my philosophy clear on that ?
That is one of the things that drew me strongly away from the trade-
union movement and the party movement, which of course was steering
it.
Mr. ScHERER. A teacher is largely part of government itself, the
same as these deputy marshals sitting here.
536 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Lewis. That's riglit. We are an instrument of the state, shall
we say, sir.
Mr. kScHERER. When you accept employment with government you
become part of government and you forego certain rights that belong
to people engaged in private industry, don't you, is that what you
mean?
Mr. Lewis. Well, that is the idea. I wasn't thinking of it in exactly
those terms, sir, as much as I was in saying that the principle of nego-
tiating for the welfare of a school group, without seeing it as a total
entity of school administration, the public, and teachers working to-
gether for children. When you divide up in such ways that you can't
work that way, then you have broken doAvn something that I think
is fundamental in education in the United States.
I am not saying — you understand what I mean here ? I want to be
sure that we don't say a teacher renounces his rights, whatever they
may be, when he becomes a teacher. He is even more aware of his
rights, it seems to me, more aware of his privileges. But he is just as
much more aware of his responsibilities.
Mr. ScHERER. Another facet of tlie problem, perhaps?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, another emphasis, perhaps.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, to carry the earlier thought one further step,
I don't mind confessing that for quite some time I was concerned, I
could not find in my own thinking the answer to the problem that you
are giving us now and that the other witnesses have given since I have
been on this committee, and tliat question was : How on earth was it
possible for anyone of the intellectual capacity that a teacher and a
professor must be, how is it possible for such a person to ever so far
submerge his intellectual freedom, his ideas, to that of the Communist
Party line? I couldn't find that. I found that in not only your testi-
mony, but in that of many witnesses I have heard since I have been on
this committee. And I think one of the most important things that you
are doing and tlie other witnesses are doing is getting across to the
public generally the real explanation of how that thing happens, how
you get wound up, and then how you unwind. And it ties in with this.
We are being attacked continuously, rabidly, b}^
Mr. ScHERER. You mean the committee ?
ISIr. Clardt. Yes. Being continually attacked, as witness one of the
incidents yesterday, and what you saw in the papers last night, by
members of the cloth and others, wlio claim we are subverting academic
freedom, and that the very way in whicli we conduct our hearings is
destroying the American concept of academic freedom.
I am laborinir this a little bit perhaps, because I think it is a most
im]">ortant ]ioint that the committee is reaching for in bringing people
of yonr kind before us.
I want you to again bear with me a moment.
Dr. Lewis. All right.
Mr. Clardy. Isn't it true that academic freedom and membership
in the Comnumist Party are utterly irreconcilable?
Dr. Lewis. That is right, sir. That is my opinion now and has
been for a long time,
Mr. Clardy. And that an exposure of that fact — and that is what
this committee is trjnng to do — will probably be the best product
of this committee's work, if we can do that?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 537
Dr. Lewis. That is right, sir. May I comment on that, sir?
Mr. Clardy. I wish yon wonld.
Dr. Lewis. To do it I have to pnt some ashes on my head.
Mr. Clardy. Let me tell you this: There are none among us that
have not made mistakes. I look back on the way I tried some of my
early cases and I am ashamed of what I did to some of my early
clients.
Dr. Lewis. That is a great comfort. I think one of the most— :I
have to say this, too — one of the most important things that has oc-
curred to me, and I think should be said, is the fact that a person like
me and Herndon and others in this group, I am sure, are going to
come forward to speak out, that they suddenly discover they have
aa Avhale of a lot of friends
JMr. Ci^vRDY. You bet they do.
Dr. Lewis. Who have conlidence in them.
Mr. Clardy. If they could see the pile of telegrams and mail we
get they would understand just how right you are in what you say.
Dr. Lewis. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Go ahead.
Dr. Lewis. Fine. It is with that spirit and support that a person
can say, "Look how stupid I was."
I would like to add something at this point, sir. Nobody can quite
explain why those things happen to people because every man grows
up a little differently. It seems to me our big problem right now is to
try to avoid the mistakes like people like I have made.
(Eepresentative Donald L. Jackson reentered the hearing room
at this point, 3 : 05 p. m.)
Dr. Lewis. And what should they do ? It seems to me no one shoidd
be put in the position that I was put in. You know the story, I guess.
It is what they say about contracts, that the large print giveth and
the fine print taketh away.
Mr. Clardy. You are speaking of insurance contracts ?
Dr. Lewis. Perhaps. Perhaps we didn't read the fine print. Wliat
are the factors that keep a person from reading fine print?
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder reentered the hearing room at
this point, ?> : 07 p. m.)
Dr. Lewis. Mainly ignorance of the facts. It seems to me the more
widespread information like this can be given to the people, the more
information they will have and the fewer people Avill be dupes. I
am convinced an ignorant man is duped, xls I say, I will put some
ashes on my head.
Mr. Clardy. Let me disagree slightly with you. Isn't it true that
sometimes because of the self-interest in some particular problem,
and the Communists cultivate that, that you become suddenly blind
to the fine print, so to speak, and you don't discover it until you find
out you were sold down the river on the original proposition that
brought you in ?
Dr. Lewis. I think so. As Mr. Herndon mentioned, the Finland
shock, where you suddenly shake your head and say, "What is going
on and what has been going on ?"
Mr. Clardy. Like the fellow that is given a hard punch in the first
round and wakes up in the sixth round and says, "What is going on
and how did I get here ?"
538 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr, Tavenner. I was interested in your statement about the lack
of knowledge, and that people are taken in on these matters because
of that. We haven't mentioned at any time here the matter of teach-
ing^communism in schools.
Dr. Lewis. Do you want me to comment on that? I feel kind of
strongly about this.
Mr. Tavenner. If you will.
Dr. Lewis. I think that ought to be done. I think we ought to
teach a lot about a lot of isms. I think we ought to lay all we know
openly on the line to people and tell them young.
I think that there is one mistake we have made sometimes, and I
hope you will listen very carefully, gentlemen, so you don't misunder-
stand me.
I think sometimes we have talked a great deal about the virtues of
our country, but haven't always set up the contrast by which a person
can make his measures
Mr. Clardy. There is no norm to judge by.
Dr. Lewis. No norm. We have ideals. I think that is one reason
why some of us went haywire on communism. We heard the idea
and we didn't have the norm. It took a long time for some other
functions of communism, that cropped up here and there, to serve
as a measure. Do I make myself clear?
Mr. Clardy. Yes. And that is that if communism is laid out cold,
for what it stands for, that it would perform a great service in that
respect.
Dr. Lewis. That is right.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. In other words, you would recommend a good
course of preparatory government ?
Dr. Leavis. Yes. I will give you one example. This is sort of selling
one of my beliefs and hobbies. I think we could take the broadcast
from radio Moscow and use it as current material, and show what we
mean by Communist propaganda, and bring it out in your current
problems and set it up against critical analysis and see what happens.
Then they will learn
Mr. Scherer. The State Department has set up libraries in foreign
countries in connection with many of these foreign-aid programs.
You would feel that those libraries, they should have books on Stalin-
ism and Marxism, and so forth.
Dr. Lewis. You have me in a jam.
Mr. ScHERER. I am not saying they should.
Dr. Lewis. Yes ; to know what they are.
Mr. ScHERER. But to know what they are. The investigations have
disclosed unforunately we haven't had any books on Americanism or
anticommunism works.
Dr. Lewis. Well, I don't know the facts on the details of the situa-
tion, sir, but any such program of instruction would be predicated
upon thorough treatment of a whole problem.
Mr. SciiERER. And it is rather shocking to think that isn't so in the
libraries that our State Department maintains in foreign countries.
Dr. Lewis. It would be, sir.
Mr, Jackson. I was about to ask one question in connection with
your statement on teaching communism in schools.
Dr. Lewis. Yes, Mr. Jackson,
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA 539
Mr. Jackson. Is it your opinion that this subject should be taught
by Communists ?
Dr. Lewis. No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Jackson. I wanted to make that very clear.
Dr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Lest there be any misunderstanding about it. Do you
believe that Communists or the directives and discipline of the Com-
munist Party have any place in the American school ?
Dr. Lewis. No. I believe I said earlier I don't believe he does. My
point is at the same time when we teach it there are many scholars
that know a great deal about it. It isn't that we can't get material and
know.
It can be presented in a scholarly way. It should be presented with-
out fear and a broad understanding of the public. That is why we
are studying ; so we will understand it.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman, as to the remark about libraries being
maintained by the State Department and containing only Communist
material, I will disagree with the gentleman from Ohio on that, be-
cause our public libraries, I think, are staffed thoroughly with books
that show the history of America, the progress that has been made
under our American Government.
I think it is out of place to accuse the Department of State of staff-
ing our books with Communist material.
Mr. Jackson. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavennee. I have not asked you about the membership in this
group of the Communist Party to which you were assigned, except
to ask you the number.
Dr. Lewis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you said there were about 12. Will you
give us the names of those that you can recall.
Dr. Lewis. They are the same list, sir, that Mr. Herndon gave you.
I wrote them down and there is only one name I recall that I can re-
member the first name, a first name in addition
Mr. Tavenner. Just a minute. If you don't know the last name,
don't give the first name.
Dr. Lewis. I only remember the first name and not the last name.
That is the only one beyond his list that I recall. I think he covered
the others.
Mr. Tavenner. There may be too many people having that first
name. I am reading a good many telegrams now and I don't want to
have to read any more.
Dr. Lewis. That is right. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I think, however, you should give us the names of
those you can identify from your own knowledge as having been
members of your group.
Dr. Lewis. I jotted them down here. Marjorie Hay, Anne Kinney^
Harry and Anna Shepro, Zara Becker. A girl named Barta Numovna,
Herndon, and myself. Matilda Lewis. I though he mentioned AI
Lewis, Matilda Lewis' husband, who was in for a short time.
Norman Byrne, who was in and out. Abe IMinkus. Honore Carey.
I didn't remember the Rose Posell he mentioned. I don't remember
the person. I remember the name vaguely.
540 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
He mentioned Sam Kalisli. That was recalled to me when I heard
it. I didn't remember it. I recall he was a member of that group for a
time.
Those were the only ones I had, except that person — I remember
that was a vague, shadowy person who was there a little and was ill
and left.
Mr. TA^•ENNER. Did you meet with a Communist Party fraction, a
fraction of the Communist Party that
Dr. Lewis. I believe I did on one occasion. The one that Herndon
mentioned. I didn't remember it as a fraction meeting, but as a union
executive board meeting. My memory is really foggy on that.
The day after I went into the hospital for an appendicitis, and that
sort of took over my attention for the time. I don't recall whether it
was a fraction or a union executive board meeting, which was some-
times held on a State basis.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy ?
Mr. Clardy. No further questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Moulder ?
Mr. Moulder. No further questions.
Mr. Tavenner. I do have another question.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer, do you have any questions?
Mr. Scherer. Not with the witness. I have a comment.
Mr. Jackson. All right, counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state what your experience has been since
it became known you were going to be subpenaed to testify before this
committee?
Dr. Lewis. Gladly. I would like to say that the first thing — and
this to me is extremely important — is the thing that Herndon said and
I think others will tell you the same thing tliat it is a matter of great
relief to have this thing out in the open, in person.
When I was served with the subpena there Avere a substantial
number of people who, at the time, had known about this for various
reasons, why I don't need to explain, I am sure. However, the minute
it was out, it was announced in the papers and I had no reaction
except favorable support from hundreds and hundreds of people. I
could get, if the committee wished — I would be glad to get — another
deluge of letters from people who have known my work for about
12 to 15 years, or more, who would give me moral support, who came
forward and said, "We have confidence in you. Go to it."
It bothers me to think — and again some more ashes — why a person
doesn't realize that the confidence of the people, you can't have more
confidence in the people when you are liked than when 3'ou are em-
barrassed. A person can be very fearful of being embarrassed. But
once you get it out in the open you find you have your friends with
you, and people that know you back you up. There is no reaction
except one of great relief. It is now open and you can, in fact, be
kidded. That is the first thing.
The second thing, I was delighted with the community reaction
in our own community, where the papers pointed out, in what I would
call very stable tones, that this committee was doing a job and those
people who came before it should not be considered criminals or in
any way unpleasant characters, because they were called by the com-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 541
mittee. But that the facts should explain things to the public when
the facts became completely known.
Our college felt pleased with the public reaction. We have, to my
knowledge, had no one call up and say, "Isn't he fired yet?" See what
I mean ? It has been complete support.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Jackson. On behalf of the committee, I would like to extend
our very sincere thanks for your cooperation and the very able pre-
sentation that you have made of your own experiences in the Com-
munist Party.
Is there any reason why the witness should not be excused ?
Mr, Ta\^nner. No.
Mr. Jackson. You are excused. Thank you.
The committee will stand in recess for 10 minutes.
(Short recess taken.)
(At the end of the recess, at 3:32 p. m., Donald L. Jackson, Kit
Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, Francis E. Walter, Morgan M. Moulder,
James B. Frazier, Jr., were present.)
Mr. Jackson. Who is your next witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Mv. Harry Steinmetz.
Mr. Chairman, I have no idea how long it will be before the witness
appears. May we call another witness?
Mr. Jackson. I think it might be desirable to call another witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Abraham Minkus.
Mr. Jackson. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give before this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Minkus. Yes, I do.
TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM MINKUS, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUH-
SEL, WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL
Mr. Ta\^nner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Minkus. Abraham Minkus, M-i-n-k-u-s.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Minkus. I am, very able counsel. 1 will introduce them. Mr.
William Esterman and Mr. Daniel Marshall,
Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.
Mr. Tavenner. Have both counsel identified themselves for the
record ?
Mr. Minkus. Mr. Chairman — ^yes.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where
Mr. Minkus. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might ask you to permit
my counsel to cross-examine the first two witnesses.
Mr. Jackson. No. I am sorry, you cannot.
Mr. Minkus. May I request that my lawyer be permitted to make a
statement, a brief statement?
Mr. Jackson. The request, in line with the rules of the committee,
is not agreed to. It is denied.
Mr. Minkus. May I myself make a brief statement ?
Mr. Jackson. You may file any statement you want with the com-
mittee. It will be considered by tlie committee.
Mr. Minkus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
542 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. T.WTNNER. Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Minkus?
Mr. MiNKus. Chicago, 111.
Mr. Tavenner. When ?
■ Mr. Minkus. February 1, 1914.
Mr. Tavenner. Where clo you now reside ?
Mr. Minkus. I now reside at Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ?
Mr. Minkus. I am a teacher.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state for the committee, please, what your
educational, formal educational, training has been.
Mr. Minkus. I am a graduate of Crane Junior College in Chicago.
I received my bachelor of education degi^ee with honors from the
University of California at Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in the teaching
profession «
Mr. Minkus. 19 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, where you have
been employed as a teacher?
Mr. Minkus. From 1934 to 1937 1 was a teacher in the Eedondo city
schools. From 1937 until the present time I have been employed as a
teacher in the Los Angeles city schools.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. ]\Iinkus, were you present in the hearing room
during the testimony of Mr. LeRoy Herndon?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. Mr. Chairman, I didn't pay very much attention
to it.
Mr. Tam2Nner. Were you present in the hearing room during the
testimony of Mr. Richard B. Lewis?
Mr. Minkus. Same answer, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. You paid no attention to his testimony, either?
Mr. Minkus. Not very much. I lieard some of it and I thought it
was such drivel I stopped listening. As a matter of fact, I walked
out in the hall several times.
Mr. Tavenner. You did not agree with what either of them were
saying about tlie Communist Party?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. If you want to reread their testimony to me, that is
one thing. Otlierwise, I do not wish to be bound.
Mr. Tavenner. What is there about their testimony that you dis-
agreed with ?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. What I didn't like about their testimony, Mr. Chair-
man— Mr. Tavenner, excuse me
Mr. Tavenner. I didn't ask what you didn't like about it. I asked
what you disagreed witli.
Mr. Minkus. What I disagreed with about their testimony, that
they allowed themselves to be used for a union-busting job in this
city. And furthermore, I feel tliat they allowed themselves to be
used to weaken and undermine tlie wliole cause of academic freedom,
not only for Los Angeles but throughout the country.
Mr. Tavenner. AVhat fact did they testify to that you conclude in
your own mind was incorrect?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA 543
Mr. MiNKUS. If you will reread the testimony it will refresh my
memory.
Mr. Ta\^nner. You have indicated that your disagreements were
of such a positive character you left the room on several occasions.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Tavenner. What testimony did either of them give which,
-according to your judgment, was erroneous?
Mr. Clardt. And caused him to leave the room.
Mr. Tavenner. A^Hiether it caused him to leave or not, I would like
to know what was erroneous.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, when he concludes, I wish you would
ask the other question. I want to know wliy he left.
(At this pomt Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. Mr. Tavenner, since you will not reread the testi-
mony, I feel that no useful purpose will be served by my comment on
it in any way.
Mr. TA^^:NNER. Was there any statement made by either of those
witnesses which you are willing to say was untrue ?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. If you will read the statement of that part to which
you i-efer, I will then decide whether I wish to comment.
]\Ir. Tavenner. I am covering all the statements of both witnesses
heard by you.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. Then go ahead and read all of his testimony, Mr.
Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that the only answer you will give to 'that
question ?
Mr. INIiNKus. That is my answer.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. ]\IouLDER. You made some reference to their testimony sup-
porting union busting. What explanation do you have to make on
that assertion?
Mr. MiNKus. I read the headlines of one of the paper as I came in
this afternoon. It says that Communists seized Los Angeles Teachers'
Union. That is a monstrous hoax. It is, in fact
Mr. Moulder. That isn't responsive to my question. I asked whatr
was in their testimony that had reference to union busting.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. I am not going to be interrupted and I am not going
to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Wait a minute.
Mr. Jackson. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the Communist Party succeed in capturing the
local union that you were speaking of
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Tavenner. Local 430, and which you seem to take an exception
to, from the newspaper account ?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Esterman. Is there something funny about this, INIr. ChaiiTnan ?
Mr. Walter. There is nothing funny about it, but, after all
544 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Jackson. Let's have order in the committee room. No expres-
sions of approval or disapproval, if you i)lease.
Mr. EsTERMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MiNKUs. Mr. Tavenner, I will answer neither "Yes" nor "No" to
this question, and to all other questions like it. 1 do so for the follow-
intf five reasons: They are brief and succinct, and I would like to be
able to state them in full.
No, 1, as an employee of the State of California I am subject to the
statutory tenor provisions with which the people of this State have
seen fit to protect the rights of tlie teachers of their children. These
are in division 7 of the State education code.
Under the law of this State, also, I have subscribed to all the re-
quired oaths and declarations relating to my loyalty, including, to the
best of my memory, the following :
An oatli on receiving my teaching credentials in 1934. An oath on
receiving my lifetime teaching credential in 1942. The Los Angeles
Board of Education loyalty reaffirmation oath in 1948.
The State Levering Act oath of 1950.
Also, I have taken approximately 4,000 pledges of allegiance during
my 19 years of teaching.
Since the 9tli and 10th amendments of the Bill of Eights reserved
to the people and to the States the rights not expressly granted to the
Eederal Government, I now invoke them as a restriction upon this
committee and assert you have no power to invade these rights and re-
quire of me additional oaths and declarations.
No. 2. Since I have sworn as an employee of the State of California
to support and defend the Constitution of the LTnited States, and of
the State of California, I cannot violate that oath, nor will I be com-
pelled to repudiate that oath.
This requires that I resist any abridgment of constitutional rights
for myself and for others.
I have taught my students to honor and live by the Constitution and
the Bill of Rights. I can do no less myself.
No. 3. The Education Code of California, section 13230, in one sen-
tence states :
Each teacher shall endeavoi- to impress upon the minds of the pupils the^
principles of morality, truth, justice, and patriotism; to teach them to avoid
idleness, profanity, and falsehood ; to instruct them in the principles of free
, government, and to train them up to a true comprehension of the rights, duties,
and dignity of American citizenship.
I would repudiate this obligation if I failed to assert my rights be-
fore this committee.
No. 4—
Mr. Jackson. Have vou almost concluded?
Mr. MiNKUs. Almost.
Mr. Jackson. If you will please expedite it.
Mr. MiNKUS. The Federal Constitution includes in the fifth amend-
ment the provision that no person may be compelled to he-dv witness
against himself, a privilege whicli was designed for the protection of
innocent people, and I invoke each and every part of the fifth amend-
ment for myself as a restriction upon this committee, and to help
protect tliis basic constitutional right for all poo])le, thereby fulfilling
my oath as a teacher, which I nnist not violate, to protect and uphold
the Constitution of the United States.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 545
No. 5. The Federal Constitution includes in the first an^end-
ment guaranties to freedom of belief and association, and I invoke the
fii-st amendment now, particularly since I believe as a teacher that any
invasion of these rights represents a threat to academic freedom, for
if teachers cannot think freely, students cannot learn to think at all.
My sworn obligations as a teacher require that I resist any threat
to freedom of education by inquisitions of this committee or any
other.
Finally, in the language of tlie Supreme Court on Monday of this
week, quote, I claim my rights under the first amendment of the Bill
of Kights, not the Bill of Privileges, because under the first amend-
ment the Congress can make no law abridging the freedom of speech
or of the press, and as the Supreme Court said, and I adopt its lan-
guage, if a congressional committee can require me or any other
person to disclose what I read yesterday and what I will read tomor-
row, fear will take the place of freedom in the libraries, bookstores,
and homes of the land, through the harassment of hearings, investi-
gations, reports
Mr. Jackson, I am sorry, the Chair is constrained, this is not a
reason for refusing to answer the question, and unless there is objec-
tion from other members of the committee I am going to ask that the
witness desist.
Mr. MiNKTJs. It is the language of the Supreme Court.
INIr. Jackson. The language of the Supreme Court, yes, but what
we want is your language in the form of constitutional reasons why
you will not answer. The decisions of the Supreme Court do not
appear to me to bear upon your declination to answer.
Mr. MiNKUS. I would like to finish my answer, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jackson. I am sorry, but I do not feel that it is pertinent nor
responsive to the question that was asked, nor does it bear upon your
direct declination.
Mr. Tavenner, Mr. Chairman
Mr. Minkus. Mv. Chairman, I haven't finished
Mr. SciiERER. Just a moment, Witness.
Mr. Jackson. Do you have other legal grounds for your refusal to
answer the question ?
Mr. MiNKus. I have, but I have not finished.
Mr. Tavenner. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Jackson. It is not necessary for you to explain your position ;
it is only necessary for you to take your stand upon the Constitution.
We are not going to listen to a great deal of argument about it.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest, in view of the fact that
he has already mentioned the fifth amendment, and since that is the
only one which can be recognized, I submit that his answer is complete.
Mr. Jackson. If the witness has any other constitutional grounds
upon which he wants to take his stand, the committee will hear the
constitutional grounds. We will not hear lengthy explanations.
We have borne with the witness now for some 15 minutes. I think
that the witness can abbreviate his statement considerably.
Mr. Minkus. If you had waited, Mr. Chairman, I would have fin-
ished in about o minutes — 5 lines.
Mr. Esterman. Five lines.
31747— 53— pt. 2 8
546 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
ISl^r. Jackson. We are not j^oiiij^ to listen to the Supreme Court
decisions. I don't tliink that they are pertinent to this interrogation.
If you have any other constitutional reasons, please advance them at
this time.
Mr. EsTERMAN. Can we ascertain where we were on the record when
we were interrupted ?
Mr. Jackson. Will the reporter determine where we were when we
reached the point involving the Supreme Court decision?
(The following portion of the record was read by the reporter:)
* * * fear will take the place of freedom in the libraries, bookstores, and
homes of the land, through the harassment of hearings, investigations,
reports * * *.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I trust the witness understands he is
not to be permitted to read the balance of that decision ?
Mr. Jackson. I believe the witness so understands.
Mr. Minkus. I have only 41/2 lines.
Mr. Clardy. You understand you are not permitted to read it, sir.
Now, desist from that.
Mr. EsTERMAN. May we point out this is a legal reason for
refusing?
Mr. Jacksom. I can't see that. The committee knows none of the
facts with respect to this case or upon what the case had bearing. For
all we know it may have been a matter entirely unrelated to the matter
now under investigation. I think the witness has been given every
opportunity to set forth in some detail his reasons for refusing to
answer the questions on constitutional grounds. I wish that the witness
would cooperate with the committee to that extent.
Mr. Minkus. I request, Mr. Chairman, that you then withdraw the
question.
Mr. Jackson. Is there a pending question ?
Mr. TA^^i:NNER. Yes. The question was whether or not he knew that
the Communist Party endeavored to obtain control or influence over
the Teachers' Union, which was the matter which he objected to that
appeared in the daily press.
Mr. Minkus. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I submit I have
not finished my answer, which has only 4i/^ lines and contains a legal
reason. It seems to me that I am entitled to give the reasons for my
opinion.
Mr. Clardy. Is that 414 lines from the decision from which you
were reading when the interruption took place?
Will you answer that question. Witness?
Mr. EsTERMAN. No ; he will not.
Mr. Jackson. I will ask counsel not to answer for the witness.
Mr. EsTERMAN. I apologize.
Mr. tlACKSON. The witness is capable of answering these questions.
Mr, Minkus. I will not answer that question.
Mr. Clardy, I ask, Mr. Chairman, that he be directed to answer it.
Mr. Jackson. I so direct.
Mr. Minkus. I am reading from my own notes.
Mr. Jackson. Will you answer the question?
Mr. Esterman. What is the question ?
Mr. Jackson. The question which has been asked by counsel.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask a question at this point?
Mr. Clardy. Let him answer this one first.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 547
"Mr. MiNKUS. May I, please, now proceed with the answer to the
pending question?
Mr. Clardy. Witness, I have propounded a question to you, and
you have been directed.
Mr. Jackson. Just a moment.
Do you have a pending question, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Let's dispose of that.
Mr, Tavenner. He has given six reasons, probably. The last is
the first amendment
Mr. EsTERMAN. He is finishing his sixth, in about 10 seconds.
Mr. Tavenner. The witness was reading from the decision of the
court in regard to it.
Mr. Clardy. And my question was as to whether or not his resump-
tion of reading the 4i/^ lines was a completion of that, and we have
not had an answer to that, and yet he has been directed to answer,
I wish you would press for an answer to that.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. You stated you are reading from your notes.
But are not those notes a copy of the decision which you referred to ?
Mr. Minkus. My notes are my notes, and I am not required to tell
you.
Mr. Walter. Just a minute. You stated those notes are your notes
You never saw those notes up to a minute ago, because I saw Mr. Ester-
man hand them to you.
Mr. Clardy. Is that not true, Witness?
Mr. EsTERMAN. Just dou't say anything.
Mr. Clardy. That is a question addressed to him, and will counsel
please refrain from making audible comment ?
Mr. EsTERMAN. If you wouldn't listen so hard you wouldn't hear it.
Mr. Clardy. I suggest that while counsel has a right to confer, he
does not have the right to put the answer in the mouth of the witness,
Mr. Jackson. That should be well understood. I believe it is
understood by all counsel representing witnesses before the committee,
that they are here for the purpose of advising their clients on con-
stitutional questions, when that advice is sought by the client.
Mr. Clardy, Not to manufacture answers.
Mr. Esterman. I beg your pardon. What did you say?
Mr, Marshall, May I address myself to the Chair ?
Mr, Esterman, Did you say manufacture evidence?
Mr, Marshall, Was that the statement?
Mr. Esterman. Just take it back.
Mr. Marshall. Do you withdraw it ?
Mr. Clardy. I do not withdraw anything. Will you be seated and
remain quiet, sir?
Mr. Marshall. Does the chairman tell me to be seated?
Mr. Jackson. We will please have order here. We will take these
things up in order.
Mr. Esterman. I think that a good time to take that up will be now.
That is a contemptible statement.
Mr, ]\Iarshall. May we take that up now ?
Mr. Jackson. If you will be seated we will take the matter up in
order. I do not intend to have counsel take over this committee ses-
sion as long as I am sitting here.
548 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Marshall. May I stand and address the chairman?
Mr.
I am informed by the gentleman from Michigan that he said
"answers."
Mr. EsTERMAN. This answer was manufactured by the Supreme
Court of the United States.
Mr. Jackson. The paper you hold in your hand was manufactured
by someone, I don't know whom, but certainly not by the Supreme
Court of the United States. It was just handed to the witness several
minutes ago.
Mr. Marshall. Must we submit our books and papers to the com-
mittee ?
Mr. Jackson. That has not been suggested.
Counsel, I wish you would press for the answer to the question now
pending, and let's get on with the orderly conduct of this committee.
Mr. MiNKUS. I still have not finished my answer to the last ques-
tion.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, it is purely a question of whether or
not he will be permitted to read the rest of the opinion from the Court
consisting of four lines.
Mr. Jackson. If it will facilitate the meeting, and it undoubtedly
will, without objection on the part of any member of the committee,
these four lines may be concluded. However, thereafter and for the
balance of these hearings — at least at such times as I have the chair —
these loTig statements are not goino; to be permitted above and beyond
those necessary to identify the portions of the Constitution upon which
the witness is basing his declinations.
The witness may continue.
Mr. MiNKUS. Thank you very much.
Mr. Clardy. May I be sure that this is conditioned upon the fact
that he admits that he is reading the decision of the court? If he
does, I have no objection to his finishing.
Mr. Jackson. Proceed.
Mr. MiNKUS. Thank you very much, Mr. Jackson.
(Continuing to read.)
Through the harassment of hearings, investigations, reports, and subpenas,
government will hold a <'lub over speech and over the press. Congress could not
do this by law. The power of investigation is also limited. Inquiry into personal
and private affairs is precluded, and so is any matter in respect to which no
valid legislation could be had.
I have finished and thank you very much, Congressman Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. Continue, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the only ground assigned for refusal
to answer the question which is recognized as a valid ground by this
committee was the fourth matter which he mentioned, namely, the
fifth amendment, but it occurs to me that in light of his voluntary
statement he has waived the fifth amendment when he stated to the
committee that he had seen an article in the press which charged that
by the testimony of certain witnesses the Communist Party had taken
over the Teachers' Union, and that this was absolutely not true, or
words to that effect. So I think I am entirely within my rights in
insisting upon an answer to questions relating to his knowledge or lack
of knowledge of the Conmumist Party effort to influence and control
that union of which he spoke.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 549
Mr. ScHERER. I think counsel is absolutely right.
Mr. Jackson. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. ScHERER. Wasn't that a voluntary statement on his part ?
Mr. Tavenner. A volunteered statement.
Mr. Clardy. Not in answer to any question.
Mr. Tavenner. I want to ask this witness whether he took any part
in a Communist Party effort to control — or let me change the question,
please.
1 want to ask this witness whether or not he knows of any effort
made by the Communist Party to influence and control this Teachers'
Local Union 430 in Los Angeles.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)
Mr. MiNKus. Will counsel repeat the question, please ?
• Mr. Tavenner. I expect I better have the reporter read the question.
Mr. Jackson. The reporter will read the question.
(The question was read.)
Mr. Minkus. Mr. Chairman, in answer to this question I wish to
adopt in full the answer which I gave previously to a similar question,
and may it be deemed that it is my answer in full as I gave it, with-
out repeating it ?
Mr. Jackson. You decline to answer the question ?
Mr. Minkus. I am answering the question.
Mr, Jackson. You are answering the question?
Mr. Minkus. The same answer as I gave before.
Mr. Jackson. For the same reasons?
Mr. Minkus. And for the same reasons.
Mr. Tav-ennek. Mv. Chairman, I suggest that the witness be di-
rected to answer.
Mr. Jackson. Inasmuch as the statement made was a voluntary
statement that did not come as a result of a question directed by counsel
or any member of the committee, the witness is directed to answer the
question.
JMr. Minkus. Which question is that?
Mr. Jackson. That is the question which is now pending.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)
Mr. Jackson. Do you want the question read again ?
Eeacl it, Mr. Reporter.
(The question wa.s reread.)
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)
Mr. Minkus. Mr. Chairman, I wish to repeat again the answer that
I gave before in full, and may it be considered that it is adopted in
full without my repeating it, and I would like to incorporate without
repeating the earlier answer this addition, that the policies of the
union are and have been determined by the membership in open meet-
■••"to'
Mr. Jackson. My understanding is that you persist in your decli-
nation to answer the question that was asked you, standing upon the
same grounds you gave at the opening of the hearing?
Mr. Minkus. The record will speak for itself.
Mr. Jackson. Do you so decline to answer the question?
Mr. Minkus. The record speaks for itself, Mr. Chairman.
550 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Ci^^RDY. Is lliat the only answer you will give?
I ask that he be directed to answer it, Mr. Chairman.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)
]\Ir. Jackson. Yes. It seems to me that the witness must answer
or decline to answer.
Mr. Clardy. He has done neither yet.
Mr. MiNKus. I will stand on the record, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. You what?
Mr. Jackson. All right, Mr. Counsel. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Minkus, on what do you base your statement
that the newspaper article carrying an account of the hearing was
false ? May I amplify that question a little, so that there will be no
misunderstanding about it?
Mr. Esterman. I think you misquoted the statement. May we have
it read?
Mr. Tavenner, I am sorry. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Esterman. I think you misquoted his statement.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Keporter, did you get the statement at the be-
ginning of the testimony that he volunteered?
Mr. Reporter. I was not here.
Mr. Tavenner. Then I will have to rely upon my recollection. I
understand that the reporters have been changed since the witness
took the stand, and that the reporter who is now present was not here
at that time.
Mr. Clardy. Well, ask the witness what he said.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Minkus, did you not state in effect to this com-
mittee that you had seen an article in a paper which you referred to
the testimony that was taken here this morning, and that that article
was to the effect that the Communist Party had taken over the Teach-
ers' Union, teachers local union, in Los Angeles, and that you bitterly
denounced that fact as being false.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr»
Marshall.)
Mr. Minkus. I prefer to rely on the record, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I ask that he be directed to answer.
Mr. Jackson. The question is somewhat involved. If it can be put
in the form of several short, brief questions it would greatly facilitate
the answering, I think, and also clarify the matter for the chair. I
don't know that I fully understand the import of the question myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Minlius, will you state what you told the com-
mittee ?
Mr. Minkus. It is in the record.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what is it ?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr,
Marshall.)
Mr. Scherer. I move that the witness be directed to answer.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, is there any way you can rephrase that
question or break it down?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; I think I can.
Mr. Minkus, did you not tell the committee that it was untrue or
that it was false that the Communist Party had gotten control of the
local union, the local Teachers' Union in Los Angeles ?
COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 551
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall )
Mr. Minkus. I think that the best way to get that is to bring in the
record. I don't feel that I am required to engage in any memory test.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Minkus, are you a member of the Communist
Party ?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)
Mr. Minkus. I will answer neither yes nor no to this question and
to all other questions like it, for the following reasons : No. 1
Mr. Jackson. The reasons have already been given, if those are the
reasons upon which you relied originally. Are they the same reasons ?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)
Mr. Minkus. I wish to give my full answer, unless the question is
withdrawn.
Mr. Jackson. Well, the question is not going to be withdrawn and
the committee is not going to listen to a review or to a prolonged argu-
ment on the question. You have advanced 4 or 5 reasons for your
declination to answer a previous question.
I am asking you whether these are identical to the reasons that you
gave before.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)
Mr. Minkus. Thank you very much for waiting, Mr. Jackson. I
would like to give in full the answer that I gave previously, if that
will be allowed.
Mr. Jackson. You decline to answer that question ?
Mr. Minkus. I have answered the question.
Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer the question for the reasons
previously stated ?
Mr. Minkus. I have given my answer.
Mr. Jackson. Your answer has not been given. I have asked you if
you are a member of the Communist Party. I should like to have a
yes or no answer or a declination upon constitutional grounds.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)
Mr. Minkus. In that case I would like to give my reasons.
Mr. Jackson. Are those the same reasons you read into the record
at the outset ?
Mr. Minkus. They are.
Mr. Jackson. Is it essential that you read them again at this time,
or is this just a delaying tactic on your part to further delay and harass
the committee and handicap its operations ? Your previous answers
are a matter of record here.
Mr. Minkus. Which part of your question am I to answer?
Mr. Jackson. You can answer any part of it, pick out any part
you want. Those are the same reasons you advanced, is that correct?
Mr. Minkus. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Which are already in the record.
Mr. Minkus. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. It is your intention, as I gather from your testimony,
to refuse to answer the question for the reasons previous given?
552 COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
. Mr. IVIiNKUs. I wish to adopt the answer that I gave before, Con-
gressman Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. You decline to answer that question ?
(At this point Mr. Minkns conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)
Mr, MiNKUs. I have adopted the answer that I gave before.
. Mr. Jacksox. That is not responsive to the question. Do you de-
cline to answer the question which is pending?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and
Mr. Marshall.)
Mr. Minkus. I am satisfied with the record.
Mr. Clardy. Mr, Chairman, so that there may be no question in this
record in the event any contempt proceedings may be contemplated
by this committee, I now ask that you direct him to answer.
Mr. Jackson. The witness is directed to answer the question.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman and ISIr.
Marshall.)
Mr, Minkus. I have answered the question and I have asked that
it be adopted, that the answer I give previously be adopted as the
answer to this question.
Mr. Jackson. I beg to differ with you. You have not answered
this question. How do you answer it?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. I will be glad to repeat my answer in full.
Mr. Clardy. That you wall reread the reasons for declining, or do
you have a new answer to give ?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Wal'itsr. Mr. Esterman, you just said to your client, "Don't
answer that."
Mr. Esterman. Yes, I did.
Mr. Walter. I don't think that you understand why or how you
happen to be here. You are not here as a matter of right.
Mr. Esterman. Am I here at your grace ?
Mr. Walter. The grace of the committee,
Mr, Esterman, I am here discharging my duty as a member of the
bar of the State of California. I will give my client the advice I think
he should have. You will not tell me how to advise my client,
Mr, Walter. You are putting words in the witness' mouth.
Mr. Esterman. I told him not to answer. I repeat he is not to
answer that last question.
Mr. Jackson. It has been quite evident since the outset of this
hearing that not only has the witness been advised on his constitutional
rights and the constitutional problems involved, but he has been
instructed as to what answers he should give verbatim.
Mr. Marshall. May we be removed so we are not so close to the
committee and they can't hear us conferring with our clients ?
Mr. Walter. You don't moan conferring, you mean instructing.
Mr. Marshall. That is not so. Do you care to withdraw that,
as one lawyer to another lawyer ?
Mr. Walter. No.
Mr. INIarsiiall. Will you make it good ? Will you make it good ?
Mr. Walter. Yes.
Mr. Esterman. ]\Iay I make a statement? I would like to be
heard. He has made a remark
i
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 553
Mr, Jackson. That will not be permitted.
Mr. EsTERMAX. The conimitteenian gets a chance to make a remark
and I don't get a chance to answer it^ I think that is evident to
the people outside.
Mr. Clardy. I ask they be instructed to be seated or the marshal
be instructed to remove them.
(liepresentative Clyde Doyle re-entered the hearing room at this
point, 4: 25 p.m.)
Mr. Tavenner. A witness by the name of Max Silver — I want to
be certain the witness is listening.
(At this point ]\Ir. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mv. Tavenner, If you haven't completed conferring with counsel,
I will wait until you do.
Mr. MixKus. I have.
Mr. Tavenner. A witness by the name of Max Silver, who was
formerly organizational secretary of the Communist Party in Los
Angeles County, testified in executive session before the Committee
on Un-American Activities on January 24, 1952, in identifying per-
sons known to him to have been members of the Communist Party, and
lie stated this :
Abraham Minkus, teacher, at one time section organizer for the professional
section, member of the county committee —
Were you at one time the section organizer for the professional
section of the Communist Party in Los Angeles?
Mr. Minkus. Excuse me one moment.
( At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman. )
( Representative Francis E. Walter left the hearing room at this
point, 4:30 p, m.)
_ Mr. Minkus. I wish to adopt the answer I gave previously, con-
sisting of five points. If you wish, I will repeat them.
Mr. Tavenner, As I iniderstand, you are refusing to answer the
question on the same grounds you have previously assigned ?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. I stand on the record.
Mr. Scherer. I submit he has never said that, "I decline to answer
the question."
Mr. Tavenner. It could have no other meaning,
Mr. Esterman. We stipulate he didn't.
Mr. Clardy. I shouldn't be addressing you at all. We do not rec-
ognize stipulations before this committee.
Mr. Esterman. I wanted to agree with the Congressman over tliere.
Mr. Clardy. I understood you.
Mr. Jackson. Proceed, JVIr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Silver further testified in the following man-
ner, in regard to the questions that were asked him.
Question. Did these teachers represent various branches of the educational
system of the community, such as the public schools, the universities and
private schools ?
Mr. SiL\'ER. I have no information.
Question. Do you know hovt^ many members were In the branch?
Mr. Silver. I believe 15 or 20.
Question. Who was the organizer of the group, if you know?
Mr. Silver. The most active teacher that participated in the general life of
the party was Abe IVIinkus. As a matter of fact, he was at one time organizer
of the Professional Section.
554 COMJVIUNIST ACTR^ITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Is there anything about the testimony of Mr. Silver which was
untrue ?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. I wish to adopt in full the answer which I gave pre-
viously to a similar question, and which I will give to all future
questions of the same kind, the answer consisting oi five points, which
I will to glad to repeat, if you wish.
Mr. Moulder. Then you don't wish to deny those allegations testi-
fied to by the witness — what was his name ?
Mr. Tavenner. Max Silver.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. I wish to adopt in full the answer which I gave pre-
viously to a similar question, and which I will give to all future ques-
tions of the same kind, consisting of five points. I will repeat it, if you
wish.
Mr. Clardy. Just a moment. So there will be no mistake on the
record, you are declining to answer that or any other questions along
that line on the five grounds which you have read into the record?
Do I understand you correctly ? You can answer that yes or no.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. I will stand on the record.
Mr. Clardy. Will you answer it "Yes" or "No" ?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. MiNKirs. I will stand on the record.
Mr. Clardy. I ask he be directed to give an answer. He can explain
after he gives his yes or no, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jackson. I have the feeling the witness is not answering di-
rectly. He is directed to answer the question.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. I will stand on the record.
Mr. Jackson. Continue, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Light, Louise Light, also testified about the
■Committee on Un-American Activities and identified you as a mem-
ber of the Communist Party. Do you deny the identification here?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. I will adopt the previous answer, Mr. Tavenner, with
the 5 points. I will be glad to repeat it, if you wish.
Mr. TA\rENNER. Anne Kinney, also known as Jane Howe, testified
before the committee on December 22, 1952. She told the committee
she had joined the Communist Party in 1933 and remained a member
until 1945. She was a member of the group of the Communist Party
which was organized within the Teachers' Union Local 430.
Both she and the two witnesses who appeared on the stand this morn-
ing, that is, Mr. LeKoy Herndon and Mr. Richard B. Lewis, all three
testified that you were a member of that group with them. Was their
testimony true or false ?
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Tavenner. Tlie testimony of any them, was it true or false?
Mr. Minkus, I wish to ado])t in full the answer which I gave pre-
viously. I would like it understood that in answering thus I am
including all of the points which I included in my original answer. If
that is not understood, why, I will read them now — I will give them
now. Is that understood, Mr. Chairman ? Is it understood I include
all the points ?
J
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 555
Mr. Jackson. We will let the record speak for itself.
(At this point INIr. Minkiis conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Esterman. We haven't finished our answer.
Mr. Clardy. I thought you had declined to answer, Witness.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Clardy. Did you decline on the grounds stated or did I mis-
imderstand you ? That is the question.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. I would like to give my answer.
Mr. Clardy. I would like you to give your answer. What is it ?
Mr. Minkus. I will answer neither "Yes" nor "No" to this question,
and all other questions like it
Mr. Jackson. The witness will suspend.
Mr. Minkus. May I finish my answer ?
Mr. Jackson. You may not finish your answer in this form and
fashion.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Jackson. These dilatory tactics, these tactics which are de-
signed to slowdown the action of the committee and to tiptoe and to
toe-dance around the fifth amendment may be all right in your mind.
However, the time of the committee and the time of the Congress of
the United States is not going to be taken up in that fashion.
You have stated you stand upon the 5 points you made
[Applause.]
Mr. Jackson. Order in the hearing room. The audience will please
refrain from any expression of approval or disapproval or the marshal
will be asked to clear the room.
You are not going to take up the time of this committee any fur-
ther with these long harangues and these attempts to make a sounding
board out of the committee. If you have any constitutional reasons
you can give us lucidly and briefly, the committee will be very happy
to hear them. We are not going to hear two pages of prepared
propaganda read before the committee for a second time.
(At this point Mr. Minkus confers with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. Do I understand the question has been withdrawn?
Mr. Jackson. The question has not been withdrawn. The question
is still pending.
(At this point Mr. Minkus conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Minkus. Then I will have to give my answer.
Mr. ScHERER. The record discloses
Mr. Minkus. What answer do you want ?
Mr. ScHERER. The witness refuses to answer the question pro-
pounded by Mr. Tavenner for the same reasons he has given before.
Mr. Jackson. That is all right.
Mr. ScHERER. That is the end of that question. Now we are ready
for another question.
Mr. Jackson. If that is the answer, that the answers previously
given, or you stand on the answers previously given, that is quite all
right with the committee.
Mr. Minkus. I do so.
Mr. Jackson. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. I suggest the witness be temporarily excused and be
directed to return at the morning session.
556 COMAnJNIST activities in the LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. EsTERMAN. May I point out I will not be here? I will be in
Phoenix.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. I overlooked that fact. I suggest he return Mon-
day morning.
Mr. EsTKRMAN. We will wait until you bring the record in. Isn't
it in the building?
Mr. Clardy. It is not the fault of the committee or of counsel that
this matter necessarily must be carried over until tomorrow, and I
think it should be carried over and completed tomorrow.
The business of the committee demands us to finish up here soon, so
we may be back at our work in Washington, as you well know,
I suggest that we should call this man again in the morning and
conclude it. Counsel well knows, because we have all practiced law for
some time, that these changes come about and are necessitated many
times. I suggest we call him tomorrow,
Mr. EsTERMAN. May the record show I discussed this with Mr.
Tavenner and that he knows I am leaving by plane in the morning
and I will not be back until Sunday night. He knows that.
Mr. Jackson. What suits the convenience of counsel in this matter ?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I do know tliat counsel cannot be
here because of other plans he has told me about. And other witnesses
that he liad were put over until Monday, for that reason.
I think this is a rather important phase of this witness' testimony
and I would not like to see him deprived of any of his counsel during
that period. I think we should either get the record this afternoon or
we should put it over until Monday morning.
Mr. Clardy. Then I am prepared to stay until we get it. I want to
complete this while it is fresh in my mind.
Mr. Jackson, Several of the committee members have important
meetings at this time and other obligations. Therefore, it is necessary
that we terminate todav's hearing at this time. The witness will be
set for Monday morning.
Mr. EsTERMAN. Ten o'clock?
Mr. Jackson. Ten o'clock. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. What time are you going to convene on Monday ?
Mr, Jackson. The committee will convene at 9 : 30 on Monday morn-
ing. Tomorrow morning the committee will convene at 9 a. m.
Mr. Esterman. At 9 : 30 Monday we will be here,
Mr. Jackson. The committee is adjourned,
(Whereupon at 4:33 p. m,, the hearing was recessed until 9 a. m.
Saturday, March 28, 1953.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES AREA— Part t
SATURDAY, MARCH 28, 1953
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Lo8 Arigeles^ Calif.
PUBLIC HEARING
The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to ad-
journment, at 9 : 08 a. m., in room 518, Federal Building, Hon. Harold
H. Velde (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman), Donald L. Jackson, Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer,
Francis E. Walter, Morgan M. Moulder, Clyde Doyle, and James B.
Frazier, Jr. (appearance noted in record.)
Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; Louis J.
Russell, chief investigator; Thomas W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk;
Raphael I. Nixon, director of research; and William A. "Wheeler,
investigator.
Mr. Velde. The committee will come to order.
Let the record show that a full quorum of the committee is present.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr.
Walter.
Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, on yesterday there appeared in a local
newspaper an editorial entitled, '"Walter Lacks Proof for Slur on the
Union." The fact of the matter is what I said was not intended to be
a slur on the union and it was not a slur on the union.
As a matter of fact, if any implication is to be drawn from what I
said, it is to the effect that the union was in no wise connected with
this act of sabotage.
This is an example of the ends that certain segments of the press go
to in an attempt to discredit the work of this committee.
Mr. Clardy. I understood your efforts to imply, at least, that the
sabotage might conceivably be charged to some Commie influence.
Mr. Walter. Of course. The man who had testified, in connection
with whose testimony this statement was made, was not a trade
unionist.
Mr. Clardy. He was talking about the spike-throwing incident, as
I recall it.
Mr. Walter. That is correct. It seems to me that every trade union
should resent this attempt to speak of communism and unionism as
being synonymous.
Mr. Clardy. You recall the last witness last night immediately
started off on that attack.
557
558 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Walter. Of course.
Mr. Velde. Do you have a witness ?
Mr. Ta\'enner. Yes. I would like to call Mrs. Edith Macia.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this com-
mittee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Maclv. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MES. EDITH MACIA
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ?
Mrs. Macia. Edith Macia.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell your name ?
Mrs. Macia. M-a-c-i-a.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you born, Mrs. Macia?
Mrs. Macia. I was born in Leadville, Colo., September 17, 1884.
Mr. Tavenner. I was going to ask you whether or not you were an
actress. If you were, I would not have asked you your age.
Will you state, please, for the committee, what your educational,
formal educational background has been ?
Mr. Doyle, Counsel, excuse me for interrupting. I notice the wit-
ness does not have counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. I would like to ask about that.
Mrs. Macia. No, I do not have.
Mr. Tavenner. You are aware of the practice of the committee,
are you not, in permitting all witnesses to have counsel with them.
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I am.
Mr. Tavenner. And consult counsel if deemed advisable or the
witness desires to do so?
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state for the committee, please, what your
educational background has been ?
Mrs. Macia. I completed the public schools of Tombstone, Ariz.,
and 1 year of college at the University of Arizona.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mrs. Macia. In Orange County, [Calif.].
Mr. Tavenner. You spoke of having completed high school at
Tombstone, Ariz.
Mrs. Macia. Well, in those days we didn't have high school. We
finished high school in the grammar-school grades. We didn't have
a high school.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you live at Tombstone, Ariz. ?
Mrs. Macia. Over 50 years.
Mr. Tavenner. And did you come to Los Angeles from Tomb-
stone ?
Mrs. Macia. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. While .you were living in Tombstone, Ariz., did you
hold a position of any kind with the United States Government?
Mrs. Macia. I was postmaster of Tombstone from 1928 to 1935.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to Los Angeles?
Mrs. Macia. 1935, in September. 1936. I am wrong there. I was
in Tombstone until 1936.
Mr. Tavenner. After coming to Los Angeles did you have occasion
to become affiliated in any way with the Communist Party ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 559
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. How did that happen ?
Mrs. Macia. Well, in August 194?> an agent of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation came to my home and asked me if I would be willing
to join the Communist Party. I had expressed myself quite freely
as being anti-Communist, but I didn't quite feature ever becoming a
member of the Communist Party. T hesitated, and then, when he
informed me that there was one gi'oup in my area that they, the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, had never been able to get a line on,
as it were, I changed my mind and told him I would. This was on
Tuesday. I told him I would let him know for sure on Thursday. I
asked him for information and advice
Mr. Tavenner. Now, let me suggest that you not make any state-
ment of the circumstances or the method under which you became a
member of the Communist Party. I merely want to ask you whether,
after being requested to take that action, whether you did.
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you become a member of the party, as
nearly as you can tell ?
Mrs. Macia. In August 1943.
Mr. T4VENNEK. And how long did you remain a member of the
Communist Party at the instance of a Government agency ?
Mrs. Macia. Until January 1, 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. And what was your reason at that time for ceasing
to be a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Macia. We were leaving Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, in the course of the period of time when you
were a member of the Communist Party did you make reports to the
Government agency that you mentioned of the information you
obtained ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. How frequently did you make such reports ?
Mrs. Macl\. After every meeting. The meetings were twice a
month. Every 2 weeks, and after every meeting.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Do you have your Communist Party card showing
your admission as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I do have.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you exhibit it, please? In whose name does
that Communist Party card appear?
Mrs. Macia. My party name.
Mr. Tavenner. \Vliat was your party name ?
Mrs. Macia. Edda Nichol, E-d-d-a N-i-c-o-1.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned that name or did you select it
of your own accord ?
Mrs. Macia. I selected it.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer the Communist
Party card of the witness in evidence and ask that it be marked Macia
Exhibit No. 1, and I would like to substitute for it a photostatic copy so
the original may be returned to the witness.
Mr. Velde. It is so ordered and the evidence will be received.
(The document referred to was received in evidence and marked
"Macia Exhibit No. 1.")
Mr, Tavenner. Will you explain the Communist Party card to the
committee, please, as to the date it was issued and as to the meaning
560 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LO>S ANGELES AREA
of the stamps tlmt appear on the left-hand side of the card? I believe
one of the committee members has it.
Mrs. Macia. Well, how shall I start ?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, first tell us for what year that card was issued.
Mrs. Macia. From November 5, lt)47, to Jaimary 1, ll> well, for
all the year 1948, until January 1, 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. I notice on 1 i)age there are a number of stamps, 6
stamps, showing 10 cents each, at the bottom of each stamp.
Mrs. Macia. That represents dues. The dues were paid, and the
reason that 12 of them are not in was because they didn't have stamps
at the time, the Communist Party didn't have stamps at that time,
and instead they marked it paid.
Mr. Tavennzr. Is that card signed by the State chairman of the
Communist Party ?
Mrs. Macia. It is signed by W. Sdmeidermann.
Mr. Tavenner. If you will hand it to the committee so they may
examine it, please.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Undoubtedly our distinguished counsel is — undoubtedly
you are going to read into the record, for the benefit of the public, the
rights and duties of party members; are you, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. That appears on the back of the card. It
reads as follows :
Rights and duties of party members :
To at all times loyally defend the interests of the working class against the
forces of fascism and reaction ; to fight all kinds or forms of national oppression,
discrimination and segregation ; to fight ideological influences that oppress racial
minorities ; to fight for the full social, political and economic equality of the
Negro people ; to fight for Negro and white unity ; to attend club meetings, read
the party press and literature, pay dues regularly and be active on behalf of
the program and the policies of the party; to participate in the working out of
policies and tasks of the club, and to regularly examine the execution of such
policies ; to vote for oflScers, committees, and delegations and be elected to any
office or committees in accordance with provisions of the constitution ; to appeal
any decision with which there is disagreement to tlie next higher body, carrying
out the decision while the appeal is pending ; to strive to master the program and
policies of the party, the principles of Marxism and Leninism.
Were cards of a similar nature issued to all the Communist Party
members at the time that you were issued this card, that is, to mem-
bers of your group ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes; they were.
Mr. Tavenner. I have here 4 receipts or papei'S indicating that they
are receipts. I would like to hand them to you and ask you to identify
them and tell the committee what they are.
Mrs. Macia. I have 4, and the first one is dated April 2, 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. In whose name is it made out?
Mrs. Macia. To Edda N. — just "N." My name is not written in.
Mr. Ta^tenner. Is it a receipt for dues for that period?
Mrs. Macia. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Tavenner. Does the name of the organization appear there
asW. A.?
Mrs. Macia. Yes ; it does.
Mr. Tavenner. What do the initials W. A. stand for?
Mrs. Macia. West Adams.
I
i
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES INT THK LOS ANGELES AREA 561
Mr. Tavenner. West Adams?
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Is Adams the name of a street?
Mrs. Macia. The name of a street ; Adams Boulevard.
Mr. Tavenner. Does that indicate the name of the chib or unit or
cell of the Communist Party to be the West Adams cell of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mrs. Macia. West Adams Club, as we called it.
Mr. Tavenner. There is a place on the receipt for the name of the
treasurer. It says "Treasurer's signature," and there appear two
initials, H. W. Do you know whose initials those are ?
Mrs. Macia. No ; I don't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not recall ?
Mrs. Macia. No.
Mr. Tavenner. On the back of the receipt are several memoranda.
Mrs. Macia. They were just subjects, that were discussed at that
meeting or meetings following. I perhaps had this with me and wrote
these notes. I have no idea of when they were taken up.
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. I desire to offer the receipt in evidence
and ask that it be marked "Macia Exhibit No. 2," and, as in the other
case, I would like to substitute a photostatic copy for the original.
Mr. Velde, It is so ordered, without objection. This evidence will
be received.
(The document referred to was received in evidence and marked
"Macia Exhibit No. 2.")
Mr. Tavenner. Does the memorandum on the back of that receipt
refresh your recollection as to what business was transacted or dis-
cussed at the meeting which was held about April 7, 1946, or shortly
thereafter ?
Mrs. Macia. I would say yes ; to the best of my knowledge, it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you describe it ; tell us what those matters re-
lated to ?
Mrs. Macia. Well, one of the questions that I have written in was
evidently asked by some member of the group, "Is not Soviet Russia
practically imperialism?"
Mr. Tavenner. Now, just a moment. Do you recall now what the
trend of the discussion was on that subject ?
Mrs. Macia. No; I do not. It was just a question that arose and
we just discussed it at length, but my reason for being at these meetings
kept me busy. I really didn't get all that transpired in the discussion.
Mr. Tavenner. Do I understand that your principal purpose was
to ascertain who were members of this particular group ?
Mrs. Macia. That is correct; yes, sir. I was told to go and find
out who they were and what they were doing, and as a result, the names
were difficult to obtain, and, as I say, I was too busy getting the names
to do much about — to take too much part in the discussion.
Mr. Tavenner. If you will proceed, what other notations do you
find on the back of the receipt which may indicate the subject under
discussion ?
Mrs. Macia. One is "Demands on Iran, what right had the Russian
representative to walk out in the United Nations?"
The next one is, "What will happen if the U. S. S. R. representative
does not return tomorrow?"
31747— 53— pt. 2 9
562 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Those were questions that were asked and answered
at this Communist Party meeting ?
ISIrs. Macta. Yes. And the last one is, "Why we were against loan
to England."
]\Ir. Moulder. The "we" referring to whom ?
Mrs. Macia. To Soviet Russia and the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. How many other receipts do you have ?
Mrs. Macia. I have three more.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give their dates, please?
]\Irs. ]\Iacia. February 4, 1947, and I was paying 35 cents dues at
that time.
Mr. Tavenner. "W^iose initials are signed as treasurer at that time?
Mrs. Macia. R. K.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whose name R. K. stood for ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes; I do. It was the wife of the treasurer of our
group. Rose Kline was the name.
Mr. Tavenner. Rose Kline. Would you spell Kline ?
Mrs. Macia. K-1-i-n-e.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the name of the organization referred to in
the left-hand margin ?
Mrs. Macia. The West Adams
Mr. Tavenner. The same ?
Mrs. Macia. W. A., just the same.
Mr. TA\rENNER. I desire to offer the receipt in evidence and ask it
be marked as "Macia Exhibit No. 3."
Mr. Velde. It is so ordered and the exhibit will be admitted.
(The document referred to was received in evidence and marked
"Macia Exhibit No. 3.")
Mr. Tavenner. A photostatic copy will be furnished.
The next?
Mrs. Macia. The next is issued in the name of Edda N., just the
same, for 35 cents. It is signed "L. S."
Mr. Taatenner. Do you know whose initials they were ?
Mrs. Macia. No ; I don't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat is the name of the organization, or was the
name of the organization at that time ?
Mrs. Macia. West Adams, just the same.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well. And the next?
Mrs. Macia. The next is April 12, 1948. I paid $1.10 dues which
carried me through to the 1st of January 1949.
On the left-hand side of this there is ''63-2."
Mr. Tavenner. What does that indicate?
Mrs. Macia. That it was the 63d assembly district and there were
two parties. That is, there were two groups in that party.
Mr. Tavenner. Two groups ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Two groups that consolidated, does it mean that?
Mrs. Macia. It might mean that or it might be there were two up-
gradings in the West Adams. I couldn't tell what it was.
It is signed "H. S."
Mr. Tavenner. Does the name of the ])erson represented by those
initials appear on the back of that receipt ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, it does.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 563
Mr. Tavenner. What is the name ?
Mrs. Macia. Helen Samuels. 2012 West 37th Place.
Mr. Tavenner. Did yon write that on the back of the receipt?
Mrs. Macia. No, I did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it written on the back of the receipt at the time
you received it?
Mrs. Macia. It must have been on the receipt at the time I received
it, yes.
Mr. Tavenner, What position did she hold at that time in your
group ?
Mrs. Macia. She was just a member of the group or a visitor, I
can't say which. I knew her as a member.
Mr. Tavenner. But the initials "H. S." appear above at the space
marked "Treasurer's signature"?
Mrs. Macia. That is true.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer that receipt in evidence and ask
it be marked as "Macia Exhibit No. 4."
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be admitted in evidence.
(The document referred to was received in evidence and marked
"Macia Exhibit No. 4.")
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, just what type
of an organization of the Communist Party tliis was, which you had
joined?
Mi^. Macia. Well, it would be rather difficult for me to say. It was
a group that was constantly receiving recruits, new recruits. They
came in for a few meetings and then went into other groups of the
Communist Party.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson reentered the hearing room at
this point, 9 : 32 a. m.)
Mrs, Macia. Wliether it was a recruiting organization or not, I
am not sure.
The meeting place was the same for about two years and a half,
Mr. Tavenner. Where was the meeting place ?
Mrs. Macia. It was on West Adams, but I don't have the address;
I don't know,
Mr. Tavenner. Then, if I understand you correctly, members of this
group were assigned out to other groups" of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Macia. Must have been, because they disappeared from our
meeting place and from our group, and evidently went into some other
group.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it what is known as a community or neighbor-
hood group ?
Mrs. IVIacia. I would say so, yes. The people who came regularly
seemed to live in that area.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlio was the chairman of that group when you
entered it?
Mrs. Macia. Well, since I am not sure of the date, which I am not,
I would rather not answer that question if it is permissible.
Mr. Tavenner, Yes, if you are in doubt
Mrs. Macia. I am in doubt, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was chaiiTnan at that time, I would rather you
not answer it.
Mrs. Macia, Well, I will answer that I will give the name later.
564 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenxer. Did you make a record of the names of the members
of this group at the time that you were a member of the party ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Just tell the committee how you made that record.
Mrs. Macia. Well, I made it by sitting as close as I could to the
treasurer of the group and watching the cards signed and the receipts
issued, and in that way I obtained quite a number of names, and other-
wise I just watched and listened until I could get the name.
Mr. JNfouLDER. May I at this point ask a question, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. Would those names be fictitious, like your own name,
or would they be true names?
Mrs. Macia. A great many of them, I think, were true names.
Mr. Moulder. You have no way of being sure whether they were
or not ?
Mrs. Macia. No, I haven't.
Mr. Tavenner. How long a period of time did it take you to obtain
a list of the group by the method you have described ?
Mrs. Macia. Many, many months. But it was very hard because
they spoke — they called one another by their first names usually.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it your purpose to obtain and list the true
names of these individuals or the names, the party names, of the in-
dividuals?
Mrs. Macia. The names that the receipts were issued to, and that
perhaps was the party name or their real names, wliichever they were
using at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you preserve the result of your work ?
Mrs. Macia. Well, I have some of it. I don't have it all, but I
have some of it.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have it with you ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I do have.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you exhibit, please, to the committee the list
of names that you prepared at the time you were a member of the
Communist Party?
Mrs. Macia. You want me to give these originals, do you?
Mr. Tavenner. Give the original list as you first prepared it.
Those names appear in your own handwriting ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, they do. They were written very hurriedly.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the list in evidence and ask that it
be marked "Macia Exhibit No. 5."
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be received.
(The document referred to was received in evidence and marked
"Macia Exhibit No. 5.")
Mr. Doyle. Counsel, while the committee members are viewing that
interesting list, and, apparently, you are waiting for them so to
do
Mr. Ta\T5nner. Yes.
Mr. Doyle (continuing) . I wonder if it would be appropriate to ask
the witness to fill in this minute or two, and ask if she has counted the
number of names on that original list which she made.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Have you counted the names ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I have ; 146.
Mr. Moulder. May I inquire?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 565
Mr. Moui.DER. Now, as I understand yon, those names were taken
as the treasurer handed the receipts for the dues.
Mrs. Macia. Most of them were.
Mr. Moulder. And you don't know whether or not they were the
real names of those persons ?
Mrs. Macia. No, I do not.
Mr. Moulder. You don't know whether they were the fictitious
names and you have no other way of further indentifying the names
of the people on there ?
Mrs. Macia. No, I haven't.
Mr. JNIouLDER. The point I am trying to get at is, it would be entirely
possible then for some person's name to be used who wasn't a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Macia. I don't think so.
Mr. Doyle. What is your answer ? I didii't hear that.
Mrs. Macia. I don't think so.
Mr. IVIouLDER. I mean by that, say, if some person, who was an ac-
tive Communist there, might select the name of some prominent citi-
zen for the purpose of not betraying their own name.
Mrs. Macia. That is right.
Mr. DoTLE. May I ask the witness if she ever heard of that being
done in this group, 135 people ?
Mrs. Macia. No.
Mr. Doyle. Did you recognize any prominent citizens there ?
Mrs. Macia. No, I didn't.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. On one of these pages, with reference to one of the
names, I see wdiat I interpret to be "Transfer La Brea and Wilshire."
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Was that a transfer to or from a branch at La Brea
and Wilshire ? What is the significance of that ?
Mrs. Macia. What is the exact wording there ?
Mr. Jackson. It says "T-r-a-n. La Brea and Wilshire."
Mrs. Macia. He was transferred to La Brea and Wilshire, be-
cause I show in all my lists the word "From" wherever I have it.
Mr. Jackson. There was a branch at La Brea and Wilshire?
Mrs. Macia. There must have been.
Mr. Clardy. During this interlude, Mr. Chairman, something else
suggests itself to me. I have the Communist Party card in my hand
and I am not sure we have put in the record here the rather interest-
ing bit of information on the inside, under the heading, "Dues Rates."
I would like to read that in. It is very brief.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Under that capitalized lettering it says,
Income over $60 per week, $2 per month. Income $25 to $60 per week, $1.
Income under $25 per week, 35 cents. Unemployed, 10 cents.
Then beneath it — I don't know where the unemployed would get
the dime. Beneath that it says.
Read the Daily Worker and the Worker. Read our Monthly Magazine Political
Affairs.
On the outside I notice they have done a very artistic job on the
front page. They have in faint blue letters, as the background of
566 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
everything, the words "Communist Party of America" repeated over
and over again.
I haven't been on this committee long enough — do you know whether
this is an exact duplicate of all the other cards we have received in
evidence in prior hearings?
Mr. Velde. No. As a matter of fact, the cards were somewhat
different.
Mr. Tavenner. No, I think it is not. I think the form is somewhat
different.
Mr. Clardy. It is quite an artistic job.
Mr. Velde. In fact, I think up until about the year 1945, '44 or
'45, the Communist Party card carried the hammer and sickle and
seal, if there is any doulDt in anybody's mind that the Communist
Party is not connected with Russia in any way.
Mr. Moulder. In connection with the questions I asked you a mo-
ment ago regarding the names you took at the meetings, Mr.
Wheeler, our investigator, has informed me he has made a thorough
investigation of the names you obtained at those meetings, and 90
percent or more of them were members of the Communist Party and
active in Communist affiairs.
Mr. Macia. I am glad to know that.
Mr. Tavenner. I think the investigator meant that 90 percent had
been identified.
Mr. Jackson. Previously identified ?
Mr. Tavenner. That is what I understand. Not identified by testi-
mony, but identified by the investigator's work.
Mr. Clardy. For fear that what I said about the dues might give
the wrong impression, we have voluminous testimony to show that
in the arts, sciences, and professions they have a percentage scale in-
stead of the flat dollar scale that I read in. Sometimes it runs up to
10 percent or more, and they are expected to contribute that on a
monthly basis also ; is that not right ?
Mr. Tavenner. I believe the largest percentages I have heard re-
ferred to were 5 percent of the professors' salaries at Harvard Uni-
versity, and 4 percent in Hollywood.
Mr. Clardy. I recall one witness said it might run that high, but
I can't remember his name.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you read the list of names of those that
you identified during the period of time that you were a member of
the Communist Party from this first list that you prepared, and where
you are able to do it, give the committee the benefit of your recollec-
tion as to the part that the individual played in any of the meetings,
and any other identifying information that you can give concerning
the person.
Mrs. Macia. Well, I can't give too much, but I shall be glad to do
that, Mr. Tavenner. I have no idea of the dates on these.
Mr. Tavenner. I will ask you to give the names slowly and to spell
them.
Mrs. Macia. This is a revised list that I made, some from memory
and some from this list. Is it permissible to give those? They are all
people that I can identify.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like for you to give
Mrs. Macia. The list as I had it here ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 567
Mr. Tavenner. I think that you shoiild give the list as you prepared
it originally, and then if there are others that you can identify, to
name those also.
Mr. Doyle. May I just ask this question? It would be interesting
to know if these names were made by you at the time of your attend-
ance at the meetings.
Mrs. Macia. Well, I made them up after I returned home.
Mr. Doyle. But within an hour or two after the meetings ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes. I would make them out on one slip of paper and
then the next on another slip of paper and then put them all togetlier
at home.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, you made a memorandum in the meet-
ing on a slip of paper.
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. And when you got home from the meeting you im-
mediately transferred what you had on the memorandum which you
had made in the Communist Party meeting to this list to which you
are now referring.
Mrs. Macia. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mrs. Macia. Shall I give the husband's wife's name at the same
time, because this is a very long list ?
Mr. Tavenner. Just as you like, just so that you cover the list.
Possibly it would be better to give it in the order in which they appear
on the list.
Mrs. Macia. Serill Gerber.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell it, please ?
Mrs. Macia. I spelled the first name S-e-r-i-1-1, but it may be
C-y-r-i-1, I don't know, and the last name G-e-r-b-e-r.
Mr. Tavenner. What part did he play, if any, in the Communist
Party group that you were a member of ?
Mrs. Macia. Well, at one time he was the chairman of the group.
Mr. Taahenner. Now, do you know that person's occupation ?
Mrs. Macia. No, not actually I do not. I have been told he is a
teacher in the Los Angeles schools.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us how long he was chairman of your
group, approximately ?
Mrs. IVIacia. Well, he wasn't chairman too long, because he left the
group to go to Detroit and remained there evidently for some time.
He later returned, and I saw him once afterward. He did not come
back to our group.
Mr. Tavenner. When you say him, what were the circumstances
under which you saw him on his return from Detroit?
Mrs. Macia. Well, there were to be several people come from other
groups to visit our group that meeting night, and he was there to
place the chairs for seating the additional group, but he did not appear
at the meeting.
Lillian Gerber, his wife.
Helen and Bob Pate, P-a-t-e.
Fred Putman, P-u-t-m-a-n.
Joe and Rose Kline, K-1-i-n-e.
Mr. Ta\t<:nner. Now, what was the position of Joe Kline ?
Mrs. JVIacia. He was the treasurer or the financial secretary.
568 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
(Representative James B. Frazier, Jr., entered the hearing room at
this point, 9 : 45 a. m.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you proceed?
Mrs. Macia. Sara Kusnitz, K-u-s-n-i-t-z. She was the recruiting
secretary of the group.
Mrs. Mitty, M-i-t-t-y, She was a very elderly lady, but told me
that she was one of the charter members of the Los Angeles group.
Edith Johnston, J-o-h-n-s-t-o-n, who was a waitress or owned a
cafe close by the meeting place.
Horace Pratt, P-r-a-t-t. He was the president of the group at one
time. And Ida Pratt, his wife.
Ann White. She had charge of what they called educationals.
Myrtle and Joe Rohr, R-o-h-r. He also was chairman at several
different times, acted as chairman.
Harry and Billie Norman, N-o-r-m-a-n. I don't know anytliing
about where they were or what they were doing.
Joe and Sandra Young. Joe Young was a graduate of the Univer-
sity of Southern California, and I don't know what his business was,
but he afterward changed his name and gave the name that he grad-
uated under, which was Charles Gladstone.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us any further identifying informa-
tion regarding him?
Mrs. Macia. No ; I cannot. There were Charles and Shirley Ellis,
husband and wife. He gave his name first as Ellis, and then about
the same time that Young changed his name to Gladstone, he gave
the name Stone. So his name was Charles Stone.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us any further identifying informa-
tion regarding him as to his activities then or later in the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Macia. Well, he was very active. He was evidently a Avriter
for the People's World, and he w^as very active and had revolutionary
ideas.
Mr. Doyle. Wliat was the name of that man ?
Mrs. Macia. He first gave the name of Ellis and then changed it to
his own name, his right name, which was Stone. He had belonged
to the Abraham Lincoln Brigade and fought in Spain. He lost a
limb there, I understand.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he ever address your group ?
Mrs. Macia. Oh, many times. One of the things that he said that
is very oustanding in my memory, he told the women of the party,
"Rise up and infiltrate into the churches, into the synagogues, into
the homes of all of the people. When you see 2 or 3 Avonien gathered
together in your neighborhood, maybe drinking tea or playing cards,
join them and just drop your little word of wisdom and in time it will
take effect."
Now, those are my words. Those are not exactly his, because I
don't remember them exactly, but that is in effect what he said.
Henry Hudson.
Mr. Tavenner. Spell the name, please.
Mrs. Macia. H-u-d-s-o-n. Sam and Mary Rubin, R-u-b-i-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me remind you again that wherever you can, to
give any further identifying information.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 569
Mrs. Macia. I shall be glad to. I don't know anything about them,
either. They had a daughter, Florence, who died shortly after I en-
tered the group, so her name isn't here.
Sophia and Fran Salit, S-a-1-i-t.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you spell the last name ?
Mrs. Macia. S-a-1-i-t. The next name I have here is Rose Sherry,
but that wasn't the proper name. I found out afterward her name was
Sharf, S-h-a-r-f.
Jack Englehardt, E-n-g-1-e-h-a-r-d-t. I don't know whether he was
a member of our group or not. He lectured often, but he may have
been a \'isitor. He came often, but he came as a lecturer.
Git Perlman, P-e-r-1-m-a-n.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell the first name ?
Mrs. Macia. G-i-t. She had charge of the literary table, the books
and the magazines, and so forth.
Vern and Iva Anthony.
Dave Sharf, S-h-a-r-f, and his wife Rose Sharf, whom I mentioned
as Sherry in the first place.
Hymie Alpert, H-y-m-i-e A-1-p-e-r-t. He was a clothier, or some-
thing of that kind. He was in that line of business.
Doreen Holtz, H-o-l-t-z. She was working in a doctor's office.
Frieda Trachgin, F-r-i-e-d-a T-r-a-c-h-g-i-n.
Frank and Fanny Emer, E-m-e-r.
Jack Lazar, L-a-z-a-r.
Lucy Warren, W-a-r-r-e-n.
Mary Goldstein, G-o-l-d-s-t-e-i-n. She and her husband owned a
cleaning shop.
Bernie Nidiss, N-i-d-i-s-s.
Edith Hershey, H-e-r-s-h-e-y.
Charles Reichman, R-e-i-c-h-m-a-n.
Mr. Polasti. He was a very elderly man, also.
Mr. Doyle. How do you spell that name ?
Mrs. Macia. P-o-l-a-s-t-i.
Mr, Ta'vt.nner. Do you know how he was employed, if employed?
Mrs. MAcia. No, I do not. Hilton Wolf, W-o-l-f . He was the one
that was transferred from La Brea and Wilshire. He was transferred
from that group.
Maurice Perlman, M-a-u-r-i-c-e P-e-r-1-m-a-n. He was the husband
of Git Perlman when I first went into the group, but they were after-
ward divorced.
Jack Chassen and wife. They were transferred. I don't really
know just where now.
Mr. TxW^nner. Will you sj^ell it, please ?
Mr. Macia. C-h-a-s-s-e-n.
Mr. Jackson. Do you have any further identification of that in-
dividual ?
Mrs. Macia. On Jack Chassen? No, I do not. Miriam was the
name of the wife.
Lillian Heron, H-e-r-o-n.
Holly and Norman Perlman. I don't know anything about them,
either.
Freda Spivak, F-r-e-d-a S-p-i-v-a-k.
Morris Oster, 0-s-t-e-r, and in parentheses I have the name Alzar,
A-1-z-a-r, so one or the other was the right name in all probability.
570 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Velde. May I ask the witness about how many names you have
left to read ? Do you have 20 or 30 ?
Mrs. Macia. At least that.
Mr. Velde. I believe at this point we will declare a recess for 10
minutes.
(Whereupon, a recess was taken from 10:05 a. m. until 10:18
a. m.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order,
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Macia, the last name you gave us was that of
Morris Oster or Alzar. Would you pick up again at that point ?
Mrs. Macl\. The next name is Rosalind Freud, F-r-e-u-d.
Mr. Tavenner. All right.
Mrs. Macia. John Doherty, D-o-h-e-r-t-y.
Joe Brodsky, B-r-o-d-s-k-y.
Mr. Ta\'enner. May I ask you again if you can recall any addi-
tional identifying information, to make that known to the committee?
Mrs. Macia. I shall be glad to. Joe Brodski was employed at Sears
Roebuck on Pico Avenue, but I don't really know in what capacity.
Harry and Ned Schwartz, S-c-h-w-a-r-t-z.
B. Hirsch, H-i-r-s-c-h. He was transferred to our group from
Chicago.
Harry Gilder, G-i-1-d-e-r.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the first name ?
Mrs. Macia. Harry Gilder, G-i-1-d-e-r. He was transferred from
the Boyle Heights group.
Burton Freund, F-r-e-u-n-d.
Harry Judis, J-u-d-i-s, and Minnie Judis, his wife.
John Dicho, D-i-c-h-o.
Steve and Tillie Oleksink, 0-1-e-k-s-i-n-k.
Edith and Allan Bomser, B-o-m-s-e-r.
Sara Rudimon, R-u-d-i-m-o-n. I'liat might be "a."
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. I don't understand you.
Mrs. Macia. That may be "a" instead of "i." It may be R-u-d-a-
m-o-n.
Anne and Bert Witkowski, W-i-t-k-o-w-s-k-i.
Nat Bookchin, B-o-o-k-c-h-i-n.
Harold Dimsdale, D-i-m-s-d-a-1-e.
Rose Dreyfus, D-r-e-y-f-u-s.
Michael Frank, M-i-c-h-a-e-1 F-r-a-n-k.
Dora Garber, G-a-r-b-e-r.
Sam Horn, H-o-r-n.
That is all on this list.
Mr. Velde. The Chair would like to state at this point that if there
are any persons in this area who have identical or similar names to any
of the people mentioned by the witness, they are at liberty and wel-
come to come to the committee and have any confusion which may be
evidenced in their own minds or the minds of the public removed by
this committee.
Mr. DoYLE. Mr. Chairman.
Mr, Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Apropos of your statement, wouldn't you also say at
this time that if any of those persons who have been named want to
come to this committee and deny that they were members of that
group, now is the opportunity for them to do it.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 571
Mr. Velde. I concur with the gentleman.
Mr. Doyle. That is a standing invitation that this committee
makes.
Mr. Clardy. Or if they want to repent of their sins and come forth
and admit it, I suggest that we invite them.
Mr. Doyle. Well, if they come forward and deny the testimony
of this distinguished witness, if they want to, or affirm it, I invite
everyone to help their Government instead of conspiring against it.
Mr. Velde. The Chair, of course, concurs with that. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. I might add, Mr. Chairman, as a practical method
of getting at that, if any person would write the committee, we would
see that an investigator for the committee calls upon him first, in
order to have some of these matters straightened out.
Mr. Doyle. I realize that it would have to be done in an orderly
manner, but it still stands as a standing invitation.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. Mrs. Macia, were you ever observed
making any of the notes which you used to compile that list?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I was.
Mr. Tavenner. What occurred when you were observed making
the notes ?
Mrs. Macia. I was sitting beside Sara Kusnitz and she informed
me, "Oh, you musn't make any notes."
I told her, "I can't remember unless I make some notes."
And she said, "Don't ever take a name."
I assured her I would not.
Mr. ScHERER. Was Sara — what was the last name ?
Mrs. Macia. Kusnitz, K-u-s-n-i-t-z.
Mr. ScHERER. Is she the one who had a brother in the politburo
in Kussia ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. What is your answer ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. I am surprised she didn't ask to see the note you made
on the piece of paper, when she said not to take any names, with that
kind of a connection.
Mrs. Macia. She was very courteous.
(Eepresentative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point, 10: 25 a. m.)
Mr. Tavenner. This is the first list you prepared of members of
the West Adams Club of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, it is.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, did you have occasion to make another list?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I clid. We were transferred to another meeting
place.
IVIr. Tavenner. Well, first of all, let me ask you over what period
of time was this first list compiled.
Mrs. Macia. Around 2 years and a half, I would say.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you say you were transferred ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Transferred where?
. Mrs. Macia. I was — we were transferred to — I can give you the
exact address on that, I think. The West Adams Women's Club on
La Brea.
572 COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS AXGELES AREA
Mr. Ta\^nner. What do you mean you Avere transferred to the
West Adams Women's Chib, tlie Women's Chib of the Communist
Mrs. Macia. The Women's Chib buikling.
Mr. Tavenner. Women's Chib building.
ISIi-s. Macia. Yes. It was the same group transferred to this
building.
Mr, Tavenner. The place of meeting was changed?
Mrs. Macia. Yes ; the place of meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. There was no difference in the organizational struc-
ture of your group
Mrs. Macia. No, it was just the same.
Mr. Taa^nner. Well, did additional people join your group after
your place of meeting was changed ?
Mrs. Macia. Well, I rather think, yes. The Jefferson group, the
Jefferson Club, disbanded or broke up for some reason and many of
them came to the meeting at the West Adams Women's Club.
Mr. Tam-:nner. Were you able to identify separately those who
came from the Jefferson Club?
Mrs. ]\Iacia. Yes, I have.
Mr. Tavenner. I do not want to ask you at this moment who they
were, because we are still considering the original membership of
your West Adams Club.
Now, you say after you moved to the new location for your meet-
ings, why, you, as I understand, prepared a list again.
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I did.
Mr. Ta\tenner. What w^as the purpose of that ?
Mrs. Macia. Just to add it to my membership, that was the list of
membership I was making.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean additional persons had joined from the
time you prepared the first list ?
Mrs. Macia. Oh, yes, they were joining and being transferred at
every meeting.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Well, will you tell us the circumstances under which
you prepared the second list? Were they the same as the first list?
]Mrs. Macia. Yes, they were the same.
Mr. Tavenner. I mean the same method of making the list?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, just the same exactly.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, when you prepared the second list did you
also list the same persons whose names you listed at the first meeting
in your first list ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. So that this list includes all the original members
who were still members of your group at the time you prepared the
second list and also the new members?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, that is correct.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson reentered the hearing room at
this point, 10 : 29 a. m.)
INIr. Tavenner. Will you tell us when this second list was prepared
and how long it took you to prepare it?
Mrs. Macia. I couldn't tell you exactly when it was prepared, but
it was prepared during the time T attended the meetings at the West
Adams Women's Chib, and I would say it took at least a year.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have that list, original list which you pre-
pared in your own handwriting?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 573
]Mrs. Macia. Yes, I have.
Mr. Taa'ENner, I would like to offer that list in evidence and ask it
be marked Macia Exhibit No, 6.
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be received.
(The document referred to was marked Macia Exhibit No. 6 for
identification, and was received in evidence.)
Mrs. Macia. Now, you don't want me to repeat the names I have
already given, do you ?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I think it would be well to do that, because
it would show how many of them remained a member of this par-
ticular group over a considerable period of time. I wonder if you
would be able to tell us, as you name these persons a second time,
that you have already named them.
Mrs. Macia. Well, if I can remember, I will, yes.
The first name
JNIr. Ta\t:nner. Maybe I can help you with that part of it. Proceed
with your list just as you prepared it. That is, of the persons who were
members of your club at the time you met at the West Adams Women's
Club building-. By that I want to make it clear, that is the Communist
club meeting in a building owned by the Women's Club.
Mr. Velde. May I ask what the date of those meetings, what year
those meetings were held ?
Mrs. Macia. Well, it would be very hard for me to say because I
don't know. Some of these receipts, however, came from those meet-
ings. Some of the receipts I have already given, but I can't give you
the date because I don't recall.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, counsel, you are making it clear, if I
understand it, that the Women's Club merely rented the building to
this group ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, that is true.
Mr. Tavenner. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. That is right, Mrs. Macia ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, that is right. That is correct.
Mr. TA^^:NN"ER. Mr. Chairman, it may be that I can help you, from
the testimony, as to the date. The witness has testified that she joined
this group of the Communist Party in 1943. and my recollection is it
was in August of 1943, and it took about two and a half years to pre-
pare the list which she first testified to, and then later it took a year to
prepare the list which she now has.
Mr. Doyle. I am assuming, Mr. Chairman, that the Women's Club
did not know it was a Communist cell that were using their building.
I am assuming that.
Mr. Jacksox. Is that the case ?
Mr. Doyle. I don't know.
Mrs. Macia. I hope it is.
Mr. Doyle. I am assuming that the Women's Club did not know-
ingly rent this building to a Communist cell.
Mrs. Macia. I don't see how they could have helped knowing.
Mr. Doyle. I make that statement in view of the discussion. I
think it ought to be made clear in this hearing what the fact was, so
the Women's Club will not be criticized, if they are not subject to«
criticism.
Mrs. Macia. That is true.
574 coMMinsriST activities in the los angeles area
Mr. Clardy. INIay I pursue that another step ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clakdt. You made the remark, in the midst of my colleague's
statement, you don't see how they could have helped knowing. Will
yon oxphnn that ^
Mrs. ISIacia. The manager of the club was always present in the
next room, in a small frame house, and she could certainly have heard
if she hud wanted to, the lectures and the discussions that were going
on all the time.
Mr. Clardy. You think it is possible that the lady might have
wanted to listen to what was going on ?
Mrs. Macia. I think so.
Mr. Clardy. That is what you had in mind when you said you didn't
know how they could possibly misunderstand it?
JNIrs. Macia. That is true.
Mr. Ci-AKDY. Was there a building there of any size or substance?
Mrs. Macia. No, it was an old home — a house that had been turned
into a women's club. It was about — it had one very large room, and
had a living house besides that the manager lived in, rooms for her
and accommodations.
Mr. Clardy. Was it rented at a nominal sum ?
Mr. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Cl \rdy. Or was there a considerable amount paid ?
Mrs. Macia. It was paid by the month, but what it was I don't
know.
Mr. Clardy. Paid out of the dues collected from the members, is
that right?
]\Irs. Macia. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. Was it used for any other purpose?
Mrs. Macia. I really don't know, except for the meeting of the
Women's Club, perhaps.
Mr. Clardy. I see.
Mr. Ja( KsoN. To your own personal knowledge were any members
of the Women's Club members of the Communist group that met
there ?
JNIrs. Macia. I couldn't answer that question. I don't know.
JNIr. D,)YLE. May I ask this one question ?
Mr. Velde. Mr.Doyle?
]\Ir. Doyle. As I understand it, Mrs. Macia, these names which you
are giving us are totally the group of names which in the course of
your representation of the FBI you have already reported to the FBI?
Mrs. Macia. I have.
Mr. Doyle. I think you said you made them a report twice a month?
Mrs. Macia. After every meeting.
Mr. Doyle. After every meeting you reported these names to the
FBI?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I did.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. Clardy. Were these meetings conducted quietly or were they
noisy enough so that persons in the next room could have been aware
of them ?
Mrs. Macia. They were conducted very quietly part of the time.
Sometimes they got excited and it was rather loud.
Mr. Clardy. How many attended those meetings normally?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 575
Mrs. Macia. We have had as many as 50 members, but when the
membership became that large it was immediately brolcen up into
smaller groups or, at least, these people were sent to other groups.
Mr. Clardy. I suppose the comings and goings were quite frequent
and the door would be open and the discussion could be heard very
plainly ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. I suppose when things got out of hand was when
the Un-American Activities Committee of the House or the FBI
was mentioned ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Did that give rise to considerable dispute?
Mrs. Macia. It certainly did.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, if you will proceed, please, with the names you
recorded as having attended, and members of your group, while you
were meeting at the West Adams AVomen's Club building.
Mrs. Macia. Sophia and Rose Malloy, M-a-1-l-o-y. I don't know
what their occupations were.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you proceed, please ?
Mrs. Macia. Morris and Nina Oster. Those names I have given,
I am sure.
Mr. Tavenner. I am sorry. I didn't hear.
Mrs. Macia. Those names I have given. Sophia and Rose Malloy
are new.
Lillian Baron I have also given.
Lena Wiena, W-i-e-n-a.
Ruth H. Wellman, W-e-1-l-m-a-n. Ruth Wellman had a brother,
so she told me, who was in business in Mexico City. She took many
trips during the time, she flew to Mexico City, to conduct business of
her own, she said.
Mr. Jackson. Did she hold any office in the Communist Party or
serve it in any special capacity of which you have knowledge ?
Mrs. Macia. No, not any different from myself. She was just a
member.
Anita Boyagian, B-o-y-a-g-i-a-n. Another name she gave was
C-h-a-t-i-n-o-v-e-r, Chatinover. That is a new name, I am sure.
Florence McDonald.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell McDonald, please?
Mrs. Macia. M-c-D-o-n-a-l-d. Seargent Roman, R-o-m-a-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Could you give us any further identifying informa-
tion regarding him?
Mrs. Macia. He came to the meetings in his uniform and talked,
lectured quite frequently on the way they handled the Communist
Party over in France, discussed it quite at length.
Mr. Tavenner. Well now, can you recall in a general way how he
treated the subject of how the Communist Party was handled in
France ?
Mrs. Macia. They were handling it a great deal rougher than it
was being handled in America, in Los Angeles, at least.
Mr. Jackson. You mean by that that the discipline was more rigid ?
Mrs. Macia. More severe, much more so.
Mr. Moulder, Do I understand he was in the service ?
Mrs. Macia. Oh, he came in his uniform and had just been released
from the service.
576 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Moulder. What branch of the service?
Mrs. Macia. He didn't say. He was a sergeant in the Army. He
was in the Army.
Mr. Jackson. Do you know where he was stationed ?
Mrs. Macia. No, I do not. Harry Campbell, C-a-m-p-b-e-l-l.
Joe Carr, C-a-r-r.
Joe Adams.
Morris Isaacman, I-s-a-a-c-m-a-n.
John O'Neal and his wife. They were transferred from the Echo
Park group. I don't know what her name was.
Ed Fisher and wife. They were transferred from San Francisco.
Mary Bindley, B-i-n-d-1-e-y.
Cliff Stice.
Mr. Tavennee. Will you spell the name, please ?
Mrs. Macia. S-t-i-c-e.
Mr. Tavenner. Again may I ask, if you have any further identify-
ing information, that you give it?
Mrs. :Macia. I will. Joe McClosky, M-c-C-1-o-s-k-y.
Herman Mazer, M-a-z-e-r.
Irving Myer, M-v-e-r.
That is ail of that list.
Mr. Tavenner. You used the name a moment ago or referred to
the name of Harry Campbell. Campbell is a very ordinary name in
the sense — I mean many people have that name. Can you give us
any further identifying information regarding that individual?
Mrs. Macia. No, I cannot.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether in his first apperance at your
group that he was dressed in any unusual way ?
Mrs. Macia. No, just his sport clothes.
Mr. Tavenner. He was not in uniform?
Mrs. Macia. No, he was not.
Mr. Velde. Counsel, I noticed the name of Fisher, too. Can you
identify this person?
Mrs. Macia. No, I cannot.
Mr. Velde. What was the first name, Mr. and Mrs. Fisher ? Tliat
name is fairly common and there is a chance there might be some
confusion of identity.
Mr. Tavenner. It is the fifth name from the end of your list. I
think the name was Ed Fisher.
Mrs. Macia. E'd Fisher, yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall any identifving information as to
him?
Mrs. Macia. No, I cannot.
Mr. Jackson. How old a man was he, Mrs. Macia ?
Mrs. Macia. I really couldn't tell — he was a young man, middle —
I would say around 35 to 45, but I couldn't tell you his age.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Cam])bell ?
Mrs. ]\L\ciA. He also wns about the same age.
Mr. Jackson. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, all the names you have just given us from
this group were new names. In checking them I have not found you
had named them before.
Mrs. Macia. They were all new then.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 577
Mr. Tavenner. Does your list also include the names of pereons
that you named on the first list ^
Mrs. Macia, Oh, yes, all that were left in our group.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you refer to your record there and indicate
those who were still members of your group?
Mrs. ]Macia. Fred Putman was one. He, by the way, was a tin-
smith.
Mr. Tavenner. All right.
Mrs. Macia. Sam and Mary Rubin. Sophia and Fran Salit.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell that name ?
Mrs. Macia. S-a-1-i-t. Rose and Dave Sharf, S-h-a-r-f. Hymie
Alpei't. Mary Goldstein. Freda Spivak, S-p-i-v-a-k. B. Hirsch,
H-i-r-s-c-h. Allan and P]dith Bomser, B-o-m-s-e-r.
I think that is all.
Mr. Tavenner. You spoke of members of the Jefferson Club having
been transferred to your group at this time or at least having met
with your grouj).
Do you know where this Jefferson Club group was located
originally ?
Mrs. Macia. Not exactly. It was on Vermont Avenue. Quite a
distance out. I don't know just where it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you prepare a list of those that came to your
group from the Jefferson Club ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have that original
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I have it here.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have the list that you made originally while
you were a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I do have.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer it in evidence and ask it be marked "Macia
Exhibit No. 7."
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be received.
(The document referred to was marked "Macia Exhibit No. 7" for
identification, and was received in evidence.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names, please, of those who
came to your group from the Jefferson Club, and such identifying
information as you can I'ecall ?
Mrs. Macia. I can give you very little information on the Jefferson
Club. They only remained in our group for three or four meetings.
Then they went out into other groups.
Mary Jane Adams. Arthur and Dorothy Anhattzer, A-n-h-a-t-t-
z-e-r. Ernest Dawson. Sadie Dawson. And Jane Dawson Kelly, a
daughter of Ernest and Sadie Dawson.
Mr. Doyle. Isn't Ernest Dawson now deceased ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes. Jacob Geyer, who also went by the name of Jack
Geyer, G-e-y-e-r. And Sara Geyer.
June Kelleher, K-e-1-l-e-h-e-r. Her nickname was Kay
Mr. Tavenner. What is the spelling of the last name?
Mrs. Macia. K-e-1-l-e-h-e-r. Edith Landall, L-a-n-d-a-1-1. That is
all.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Is that all ?
Mrs. Macia. That is all, yes.
31747— 53— pt. 2 10
578 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
I\fr. Tavenner. Now, did yon prepare any additional lists of mem-
bers of your cell in the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, there were several of us transferred from the West
Adams Women's Chib meeting place. We were still the West Adams
group. We were transferred to what I called the 30th Street group.
I don't know what the name of the club was. But I have it in my
notes as the 30th Street group.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us about the date of that transfer ?
Mi-s. Macia. Well, it must have been in the spring of 1948, because
I didn't attend too many meetings after being transferred to this
group.
Mr. Tavenner. Were very many members of your group assigned to
the 30th Street group ?
(Representative Francis E. Walter re-entered the hearing room at
this point, 10 : 45 a. m.)
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask a question there?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. When you say 30th Street, was that the meeting place ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mi-. Doyle. Was it on East 30th or West 30th ?
Mrs. Macia. West 30th.
Mr. D )YLE. Approximately what block on West 30th?
Mrs. Macia. It was amout three blocks off Jefferson. I went down
on the Jefferson car and walked back. I walked north 2 blocks and
east 3 blocks.
Mr. DoYLE. That would be approximately how many blocks west
of Main Street or west of Figueroa? Jefferson runs parallel with
30th.
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I know it does. I really can't tell.
Mr. Doyle. Was it as far west as the Women's Club Building which
had been rented?
Mrs. Macia. I don't think so.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you were preparing to give us the number
of people who transferred to that group with you.
Mrs. Macia. Pardon me. Yes, there were 6 or 7 of us. I think
there were six. I have six here and I think that was all that was trans-
ferred.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the names of the six who were trans-
ferred with you ?
Mrs. Macia. Sara Kusnitz, Sam and Mary Eubin, Hymie Alpert,
Edith Hershey, and myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the spelling of the last name?
Mrs. Macia. H-e-r-s-h-e-y.
Mr. Tavenner. How many were in the new group to which you were
assigned, that is, the 30th Street group ?
Mrs. Macia. I really couldn't tell you, because I think I only at-
tended three meetings and there were several of them that didn't ap-
pear at the second meeting, and there were others that appeared at the
second meeting, that didn't come to the third, so I never really knew
who belonged to this group. It was not a large group, however.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 579
Mr. Tavenner. Did you make a record of any of the members of
that group ?
Mrs. IMacia. Yes, I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you make the record in the same general manner
that you have made the records of those who were at the other group ?
Mrs, Macia. Yes, that is the way I made the records.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have that list with you, as you originally
prepared it?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, I do.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer it in evidence and ask it be marked "Macia
Exhibit No. 8."
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be received in evidence.
(The document referred to was marked "Macia Exhibit No. 8" for
identification, and was received in evidence.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of the 30th Street group ?
Mrs. Macia. There was Marsha and Gus Browne. Their number
was 8569 West 30th. B-r-o-w-n-e.
Jane Callender.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you again to give us all the identifying
information you can recall.
Mrs. Macia. I shall. Paul Allen, A-1-l-e-n.
Nathan Gervin, G-e-r-v-i-n.
Jane Callender, C-a-l-l-e-n-d-e-r.
Bob Robinson, E-o-b-i-n-s-o-n. And Marjorie Eobinson. They
were both graduates of the University of Southern California. They
were Negroes.
Morris Karson, K-a-r-s-o-n, who was also known as "Red" Karson.
Bobbie Karson, who was perhaps his wife. And Ethel Karson and
Charles Karson. I think they were husband and wife.
Sanford Bernstein, B-e-r-n-s-t-e-i-n.
Lawn Brooks.
Tommy Downs, D-o-w-n-s.
Frank Moskin, M-o-s-k-i-n.
Nina Handman, H-a-n-d-m-a-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Does that complete the list?
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. The receipts which we presented to you bearing
date of April 12, 1948, had at the left-handed lower margin the name
of the organization as "63," which you indicated meant 63d Assembly
District.
Mrs. Macia. Yes, it did. Wliether the "2"— is that what you mean ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mrs. Macia. Whether the "2" stands for the fact there were 2 meet-
ing places or 2 groups, or whether it meant something else I don't
know.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that still an additional group of the Commu-
nist Party of which you were a member ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, that was the same as the West Adams.
Mr. Tavenner. The same as the West Adams?
Mrs. Macia. Yes.
Mr. Velde. The committee will be at recess for 10 minutes.
(Whereupon, a recess was taken from 10 : 55 until 11 : 05 a. m.)
580 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
AFTER RECE8S
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order. Let the record show
a quorum present, being Congressmen Clardy, Scherer, Jackson, Velde,
and Moulder.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. ]Macia, who was it that actuaUy recruited you
into the party?
Mrs. JNIacia. Sara Kusnitz who was at that time the recruiting
secretary of the group.
Mr. Tavenner. During the period that you were a member of the
West Adams Club of the Communist Party and later the Thirtieth
Street Club, was your club visited by functionaries of the Comnumist
Party from a higher level ?
Mrs. Maoia. Yes, it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the names of any of those persons who
visited your club and the purposes for their visit?
Mrs. Maclv. Ernest Dawson was one. He is now deceased, I think,
a Mr. Freud, F-r-e-u-d I think, and Jack Englehardt, E-n-g-1-e-
h-a-r-d-t, and a man named Mann, but he was recruiting members all
over the Southwest and he told me he was going into Arizona to work
on the Mexicans. I don't recall his first name.
Mr, Tavenner. Wliat was his name?
Mrs, Macia. Mann, M-a-n-n, but I don't know his given name.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall wliether the Duclos letter argument
was presented to your group ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes. it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall hoAv it was presented and who pre-
sented it ?
Mrs. Macia. They were outraged by the situation, and shortly after
all of the big people of the Communist Party in our grouj:) rose and
apologized for ever having drawn us into an organization that a«man
like Browder could lead, and they were afraid he would be a turncoat,
and so forth, but the tragedy was that he had led us, that we had been
led by him, and now Ave were being led by a man, when Foster was
ap])ointed, that we were being led by a man who was a real Conununist.
]NIr. Tavenner. Can you tell us who took that position, who were
the major or principal leaders in your group ?
Mrs. Macia. Charles Stone was one, and Joe Eohr was another, and
Charles Gladstone was another. That is all I remember now.
Mr. Velde. At the time of the Duclos letter, jNIrs. Macia, did a
number of the members in your particular cell break away and resign ?
Mrs. Macia. No ; I don't think so.
Mr. Velde. They all stuck together ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, they did.
Mr, Velde. And obeyed the Duclos letter,
Mrs. Macia. Yes,
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, so far as you could determine, prac-
tically the entire membership accepted the decision.
Mrs. Macia. Yes, they did.
Mr. Tavenner. Which was made on the basis of the Duclos letter.
Mrs. Macia. As far as I know, all of them did, especially those
who were attending the same meeting place that I did.
Mr. Velde. Was there a heated discussion about it?
Mi-s. Macia. Yes.
I
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 581
Mr. TA^1:N^^EE. Were any of your party meetings devoted to in-
doctrination of Communist Party members in Communist Party
philosophy and principles ?
Mrs. Macia. I think that was one of the main reasons for the meet-
ings there. After the indoctrination took place they were transferred
into other groups. Especially if they were new to the Communist
Party.
Mr. Tavenner. How would this indoctrination practice develop?
How was it developed in your meetings ?
Mrs. Macia. By study and by lectures, by lecturers who came to
•conduct the classes.
Mr. TA^^NNER. What did the study consist of ?
Mrs. Macia. Marxism and so forth.
Mr. Tavennpji. Were books and literature of one kind or another
made available to the members?
Mi-s. Macia. Oh, yes, every meeting.
Mr. Taatenner. Where did this material come from ?
Mrs. Macia. From the Dawson Bookstore,
Mr. Tavenner. Dawson Bookstore?
Mrs. Macia. Dawson Bookstore. I think it was around Sixth and
Grand.
Mr. Tavenner. Was this the same Dawson that you mentioned a
few moments ago?
Mrs. Macia. Yes, it was.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Do you know whether any other bookstores were
re^rted to for the material ?
Mrs. Macia. I don't think so. I think they got all of their books
from the Dawson bookstore, bought all of them there.
Mr. Tavenner. How many years was it that you performed this
bimonthly service for the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Mrs. Macia. Five years and about 3 months, from August 1943
until January 1, 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you paid a salary during that time ?
Mrs. Macia. Just expenses.
Mr. Tavenner. You performed this work as a patriotic service to
your country?
Mrs. Macia. Entirely.
Mr. TA^^NNER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mrs. Macia, I want to congi^atulate and compliment you
on your excellent testimony here today, and also compliment you and
congratulate you on the excellent patriotic work you have done in the
past as an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And
I think that your work in this respect will not go unsung, especially
since the Un-American Activities Committee has been formed, and it
is now in the process of putting some of the information that you
obtained and turned over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation
before the public and before legislative bodies so that these legislative
bodies might take the matter into consideration and pass legislation
to handle the matter of subversives throughout the country, and I
thank you very kindly.
Mrs. Macia. Thank you.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy ?
Mr. Clardy. I think she has covered the subject very thoroughly.
582 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. SciiEKER. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Walter?
Mr. Walter. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder?
Mr. Moulder. No questions.
(Representatives Frazier and Doyle entered the hearing room at
this point, 11 : 15 a. m.)
Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. Yes ; I do have, if it is my time to ask a question.
Mrs. Macia, at the time you made some of your testimony I made
notes on some of it, but do I understand that you attended these
Commie cells in Los Anseles as late as January 1949 ?
Mrs. Macia. No; I don't think I attended after November 1948.
Mr. Doyle. And those cells that you have related were active as
late as that ; were they ?
Mrs. Macia. They were.
Mr. Doyle. At least to your knowledge they were active that late,
and then they have been active later than that, as far as you know?
Mrs. Macia. As far as I know ; yes.
Mr. Doyle. You think they were, as far as you know ?
Mrs. Macia. They showed no inclination to disband.
Mr. Doyle. Why, if you know, were the five members transferred
to the 30th Street unit? ,
Mrs. Macia. Well, because that group was becoming too unwieldy,
there were too many members.
Mr. Doyle. You said this — I think this was your exact wording:
"Allen, whose real name was Stone, he had revolutionary ideas." Do
you remember so saying?
Mrs. Macia. Well, he was always advising the group to rise up and
fight and gain members, and prepare themselves to be ready when the
bi^ dav came.
Mr. l)ovLE. Wlien was that big day to come ?
Mrs. Macia. Well, he didn't say.
Mr. Doyle. You said he addressed the group many times ?
Mrs. Macia. He did.
Mr. Doyle. And when you said he had revolutionary ideas and
told them to rise up, what sort of a revolution did he advocate or
speak of?
Mrs. Macia. They seemed to understand what it was all about. I
didn't.
Mr. Doyle. Did they discuss in their meetings the work of the
United States Congress through the Un-American Activities Com-
mittee?
Mrs. Macia. It was touched on very lightly.
Mr. D0Y1.E. And I understood you to say that this man Stone, his
real name being Stone, as far as you know, said : "So, women, rise
up and infiltrate synagogues and churches."
IMrs. Macia. And homes, wherever two women were gathered
together.
Mr. Doyle. What was the response of the women to that word?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 583
Mrs. Macia. They seemed to think it was the proper thing to do.
Mr. Doyle. Well, to your knowledge, did they state or indicate
that they would do that or try to do that ?
Mrs. Macia. I don't know.
Mr. Doyle. You didn't know whether they actually did anything
following his advocacy of that?
Mrs. Macia. No.
Mr. Doyle. I think, Mr. Chairman, while I have done it before, in
connection with this witness' testimony that this man Stone had revo-
lutionary ideas and advocated it openly and addressed the group
many times advocating revolution and the group seemed to under-
stand what he meant, that I want again to just call to the attention
of the group that may be listening and for the record this one para-
graph of Public Law 831 of the 81st Congress, which deals with this
subject of the world Communist movement, and I read Public Law
831, 81st Congress, chapter 1024, 2d session, section 2 :
Necessity for legislation. As a result of evidence adduced before various com-
mittees of the Senate and the House of Representatives, the Congress hereby
finds that there exists a worldwide Communist movement which in its origin,
its development, and its present practice is a worldwide revolutionary move-
ment whose purpose is by treachery and deceit infiltration into other groups,
governmental and otherwise, espionage, sabotage, terrorism, and any other
means that may be necessary to bring about a Communist totalitarian dictator-
shiij throughout the world through the medium of worldwide Communist
organization.
I want to ask one more question. Was there any effort with any of
these Commie cells that you were theoretically a member of in the
performance of your patriotic duty, for which I wish to compliment
you, and compliment you very earnestly and sincerely ; was there any
effort to urge work among young people, school children, high-school
children, college students! Do you recall any?
Mrs. Macia. Not that I know of. They did sell the books to young
mothers to take home for the little children, to take home to read them
nursery rhymes, and so forth, that were truly communistic.
Mr. Doyle. When you say they were children's books, was that
what I understood ?
Mrs. Macia. And nurser}^ rhymes.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have a sample of those?
Mrs. Macia. No ; I am sorry I do not. I took home the one I bought
and burned it in my fireplace, because I didn't want it.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, you tell me that those nursery rhymes
were entirely different?
Mrs. Macia. They were based on the same nursery rhymes that we
know, but they were entirely different from the ones that we learned.
Mr. Doyle. In what way different?
Mrs. Macia. It would be hard for me to tell you.
Mr. Doyle. Well, you said they were communistic.
Mrs. Macia. Yes; they were written for the Communist Party's
children.
Mr. Doyle. At what age level would these children's books such as
the one you burned up be attractive? In other words, what age
children would these Communist nursery rhymes reach?
Mr. Macia. It was baby rhymes like A Little Birdie in the Tre(),
and so forth.
584 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Clardy. You mean they went and they made some covert type
of correction in their subject matter.
Mrs. Macia. Tliat is ri<?ht.
Mr. Clardy. They just changed the nurser}'^ rhymes to suit the
Communist theory ^
Mrs. Macia. To suit the Communist theories.
Mr. Clardy. They start pretty early ; don't they ?
Mrs. Macia. Yes; they do; and they stay late.
Mr. Clardy. Yes; we have had a lot of evidence of that. And this
committee is going to stay rather late, too.
Mr. D0YI.E. Thank you very much. I think that is all.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel, is there any reason why this witness should
not be excused?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. Accordingly, the witness is excused with the commit-
tee 's thanks.
Mrs. Macia. And may I thank you all for giving me the pri^dlege
of appearing before you. I feel it is a real privilege.
Mr. Velde. Do you have any other w^itness at the present time?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, Mr. Chairman, I have 1 or 2 matters here
which might be raised at this time.
Mr. Velde. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. I have a letter addressed to Mr. Jackson by a per-
son by the name of Anne Morgan. In the letter she states : "My name
is Anne Morgan and I wish to say I am not the Anne Morgan men-
tioned on television this morning as having been or is now a Com-
munist." The letter is dated March 26. The writer of the letter goes
on to state certain veiy decided views against communism, and a
commendation to the committee, and then winds up with this
paragraph :
Therefore, as I hold a position of trust in our chun-li, I would like to make
it clear, I am sure we all do know or must know that I am not the Anne Morgan
mentioned in television as a Communist.
Mr. Moulder. "V^'liat is the address on that, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. It is signed, "Sincerely yours, Mrs. Charles E.
Morgan (Anne Morgan), 4420 South Wilton Place, Los Angeles."
Mr. Clardy. Do you recall the address of the other Anne Morgan ?
Mr. Tavenner. No; I do not.
Mr. Clardy. Perhaps it might be well to state the occupation and
position of the other one so that there Avill be no question in anybody's
mind.
Mr. Tavenner. Tlie other person was identified as Ann Roth Mor-
gan, to my recollection.
There has just come to the attention of the committee this morning
a letter addressed to the chairman by Mr. Robert Weil in behalf of
Mr. William N. Robson. The letter is as follows :
We have hoen advised that in recent days it has l>ecome the policy of the
Committee on Un-American Activities, as evidenced by public statements of its
members, to allow a hearing to persons who have been mentioned by name in
committee reports ccmcerning the organizations and activities into which the
committee has been inquiring. I agree that this policy on the part of your com-
mittee is in accord with the highest American traditions of fair play and justice.
We represent William N. Robson, who for many years has been a prominent
radio writer, directoi-, and producer. Mr. Robson's name appeared in the official
report of the Committee on Un-American Activities, Seventy-eighth Congress,
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 585
second session, appendix No. 9, page 576, where his name was listed as a spon-
sor of an organization entitled Artists Front To Win the War. Mr. Robson has
never been a member of the Communist Party nor lias he ever been affiliated
in any active manner in any so-called Communist front organization. In the
sworn affidavit which accompanies this letter INIr. Robson has explained as best
he could the circumstances under which his name does appear, and also how his
name came to appear as he signed the statement supporting the presidential
candidacy of Henry A. Wallace, and we are informed that a like affidavit is also
to be filed with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. On behalf of Mr. Robson
we hereby request the opportunity to allow Mr. Robson to make a voluntary
appearance and a statement before your committee at the time of its hearing in
Los Angeles at the end of this month. We desire to cooperate with the committee
in their purpose and want to answer whatever questions you may wish to ask
concerning the circumstances under which his name appeared in the commit-
tee report. It would be appreciated if you would favor us at your earliest
convenience with a communication concerning the appearance of Mr. Robson.
We are also taking the liberty of sending a copy of this letter to the Honorable
Donald L. Jackson, who is a Californian, and who has expressed a very keen
interest in this situation.
Yours very truly,
Robert Weil.
It has been decided to read that in the record.
Mr. Velde. Yes, I think the record should show it.
Mr. Tavenner. It should be done as a matter of record, and be-
cause of the present business we have not had an opportunity to ac-
cord a hearing to him at this immediate hearino;.
Mr. Velde. But certainly as soon as possible the committee will
grant this man the hearing, either in executive or open session, at his
convenience.
Mr, Tavenner. I have just received another communication. This
was transmitted by telephone, from Mr. John P. O'Neil, 2328 South
Hope, in which he denies having been a Communist or being one. I
don't know whether his name was mentioned in any connection or not.
I do not recall it, except there was a person by the name of O'Neil men-
tioned on the list just given.
A similar message has been received from a person by the name of
Eva Johnson, a waitress and a cafe owner, 1040 West 56th Street, Los
Angeles.
Mr. Velde. That is the message, that her identity has been confused ?
Mr. TA^^NNER. That is the purport of her telephone message.
Mr. ScHERER. ]Mr. Chairman, while we are reading letters into the
I'ecord, I have a letter which I would like to read into the record and
make a few comments about. This letter is dated March 27, addressed
to this committee and signed by one Kobert Gammon, and it is relative
to the testimony of Mr. Simon Lazarus, who is the owner of the Inde-
pendent Production Corp. who testified.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe that was read yesterday.
Mr. ScHERER. Was it?
Mr. Tavenner. I am certain that it was read yesterday.
Mr. Clardy. This is dated March 27. I recall one letter. I am not
sure it is the same one.
Mr. Tavenner. We read a letter from Mr. Gammon which said that
he was not connected with Mr. Lazainis' firm and that he was a worker,
a back lot worker of some kind.
Mr. ScHERER. No, I think this is entirely a different letter, Mr.
Counsel. Would you like to look at it?
Mr. Clardt. It touches on another phase of Lazarus' testimony,
too.
586 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. ScHERER. Is that a different letter?
Mr. Tavennek. It is a different letter.
Mr. ScHERER. I thought it was. I think that before reading the let-
ter, in view of what you said, Mr. Counsel, we should recall just briefly
that duriuf^ Mr. Lazarus' testimony with re^^ard to the Inde-
pendent Production Corp, Mr. Lazarus was asked by counsel the
names of the individuals who had participated with him in the organi-
zation of that corporation. He refused to say whether he knew those
individuals or in any way identify them. It will be recalled further,
at least it is my recollection, that he was presented a certified copy
of the articles of incorporation filed with the Secretary of State of
the State of California. That certified copy indicated that he and a
number of other persons on the same date before a notary public had
signed the application for the letters of incorporation, and he refused
to say whether he knew those people or to identify them in any way.
Now, we have this significant letter from Mr. Gammon, who does
appear as one of the incorporators of that corporation, and this letter
reads as follows:
This is to inform you and your committee that I am not and never have been
a member of the Communist Party or of any other subversive group. It has
come to my attention that when Mr. Lazarus testified before your committee on
March 26, 1953, he refused to give information regarding my name appearing
as an incorporator of his company. In way of explanation I wish to state that
my business is a service for attorneys, which includes process serving. On or
about September 1, 1951, I was asked by Mr. Charles J. Katz, an attorney by
"whom I am employed, to act as a dummy director of this corporation. Mr.
Katz, you will recall, was the notary who took the acknowledgement, both of
Mr. Lazarus and all of the other incorporators. It was my assumption that Mr.
Katz was in a hurry to get this corporation started and needed someboily for this
purpose. Two days later, after signing this, I was given a resignation as director
to sign and did so. I hope this statement will be of help to your committee.
It is evident that dummy incorporators were used, which is not, of
course, an unusual practice, but it is significant, at least to me, that
Mr. Lazarus refused to comment in this particular case on the use of
dummy incorporators and did not advise or see fit to advise the com-
mittee that they were asked to resign 2 days later, so that there is no
public record as to who the actual moving spirits were behind this
corporation. I don't think that need be offered in evidence, since I
have read it in the record.
Mr. Doyle. You would say, Mr. Scherer, wouldn't you, that there
is no public record of who the moving spirits in the corporation might
have been beside Mr. Lazarus?
Mr. Scherer. None except for Mr. Lazarus as far as the testimony
is to this point.
Mr. Velde. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to call Mr. Norman Byrne.
Mr. Robert W. Kenny. I don't know that I am appearing for Mr.
Byrne, but he has called my office, and he spoke to my secretary and
she has relayed the message to me, that the witness lives in Lake'
Hughes and left there in a car and broke a spring and cannot be here
until late this afternoon, and asked me to tell the committee that he
was to be here immediately after lunch, and that he would call me at
home this evening or tomorrow.
Mr. Tavenner. May I suggest that you get in touch with him and
have him here.
COI^IMUNIST ACTrV^ITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 587
Mr. Kenny. We haven't any professional relationship. Appar-
ently he has phoned in and — he did call me so I am relaying the mes-
sage to yon that he asked to be relayed.
■ Mr. TA^^;NNER. We are expecting him here after lunch.
Mr. Kenny. He said that; he just phoned to say to me and tell me
.that you were expecting him after lunch.
Mr. Doyle. After lunch today, Mr. Kenny.
Mr. Kenny. That is the message.
Mr. Clardy, What did he say was broken?
Mr. Kenny. A spring.
Mr. Clardy. A spring on what?
Mr. Kenny. His automobile.
Mr. Tavenner. How far does he live from here ?
Mr. Kenny. Well, Lake Hughes — I was born in the county and I
don't know where it is. My impression is it must be near some lake
and it must be up in the mountains.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand it is about 65 miles, and of course if
■he has not left and he is not on his way here he can't be here by 2
o'clock.
Mr. Clardy. Well, is there any message other than this ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. We would like you to have him here this
afternoon.
Mr. Clardy. What is the message ?
Mr. Kenny. It isn't a letter, it is a message. That was apparently
phoned to my office and my secretary brought it in here. He says he is
going to call me this evening or tomorrow, so I will tell him.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you can't get in touch with him in
any quick way ?
Mr. Kenny. I don't know. I am just relaying this information to
you.
Mr. Clardy. Would you mind telling the hour at which the message
was received ?
Mr. Kenny. My secretary came in I think at the time of your anti-
penultimate recess, the recess before the last one. I don't know the
■exact time.
Mr. Clardy. About 10 o'clock.
Mr. Kenny. About 10.
Mr. Velde. Do you have any other witness ?
Mr. Kenny. I will be glad to give the message to him when he calls.
Mr. Clardy. How far was he from Los Angeles when this accident
■happened, do you know ?
Mr. Kenny. Congressman, I will give you this.
Mr. Clardy. No, I don't want to see it.
Mr. Velde. Do you have another witness, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
APPEARANCE OF CHAEIES A. PAGE, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, ROBERT W. KENNY
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Charles Page.
Mr. Kenny. Before you proceed, Mr. Page objects to any testimony
being taken over television, either audialy or visually, in line with the
•decision of the District Court of the District of Columbia.
Mr. Velde. We will take that up after he is sworn.
588 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Page. I do .
Mr. Velde. So that we might understand the matter relative to
television, do you, Mr. Witness, object to being televised entirely, that
is, both audio and video ?
Mr. Page. I do, sir.
Mr. Velde. In that particular case I think it has been the ruling
of the committee to continue the hearing until a time when there will
be no television equipment playing on the witness, so, accordingly,
your testimony will be continued until 10 o'clock next Monday morning.
Mr. Kenny. Sunday morning ?
Mr. Velde. Monday morning.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, before you excuse the witness, just
a moment please.
Mr. Velde. Just a minute.
(At this point Mr. Tavenner conferred with Mr. Velde and other
members of the committee. )
Mr. Velde. The committee has changed its plans with reference to
your appearance. Could you be here at 4 o'clock this afternoon ?
Mr. Page. Yes.
Mr. Velde. Therefore, you are dismissed until 4 o'clock this after-
noon.
Do you have another witness, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. I believe it would be hardly worth while to start
in on anything now.
Mr. Velde, That being the case, the committee will stand in ad-
journment until 1 : 45.
(Thereupon, at 11 : 45 a. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 1 : 45 p. m., same day. )
afteenoon session
(At the hour of 2 : 03 p. m., of the same day, the proceedings were
resumed, the same parties being present, excepting Representative
Harold H. Velde.)
Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order.
Do you have a witness, Mr. Counsel?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. Before calling the witness, may I read
into the record the responses from certain individuals ?
Mr. Jackson. Yes.
Mr. Tavicnner. Here is a telephone message, handed me, from
Lillian Baron, 1622 South Mansfield, real estate business: "Please
make it known she is not the party mentioned on the broadcast this
a. m."
Here is a message from Sam Horn, H-o-r-n, 839 Rimpau Boule-
vard : "Would like to have people know he is in no way connected with
the Communist Party and is not the Sam Horn mentioned on the
broadcast this a. m."
A message was received from a person by the name of Charles
Smith, Jr., wliicli does not have to do with this matter.
A Charles Carson, 1401 Third Street, Manhattan Beach, called and
said that he is a novelist and literary consultant and would appreciate
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 589
an announcement being made publicly lie is not the Charles Karsoii
Mrs. Macia mentioned.
Mr. Moulder. Well, is he?
Mr. Tavenner. I have no idea about any of these. These just are
in response to the invitation the chairman has made, where names have
appeared, to give them the right to appear and state what they choose.
This is only a statement of what they said. I have no knowledge at
all, of course, of the identity of any of these persons, but this at least
puts them in the position of being heard.
This is a telegram from a person by the name of Sam T. Horn,
Arizona — I guess that is a telephone number, Arizona so and so.
Please be advised that Sam T. Horn, residing at 188 North Carmelina Avenue,
Los Angeles, Calif., is not the same person that was mentioned by witness Macia.
I would greatly appreciate your announcing this correction on the air, as I am
not associated and have never been with such a party."
This is addressed to the chairman, a telegram :
American Federation of Teachers Local 1021 is greatly concerned over pub-
licity regarding inquiry in the Los Angeles schools. Persons referred to as
Teachers Union members are not and have not been members of local 1021. In
1948 the American Federation of Teaciiers investigated charges brought against
the policies and officers of local 430 of the AFL. That charter was revoked. The
action was upheld in ATFT convention
I guess that is "AFL convention." "AFTF." It reads :
AFTF convention of 1949. Meanwhile the Los Angeles Teachers Union Local
1021 was chartered and from that time it has been in good standing with the
A. F. of L. on local, State, and National levels. No members of local 1021 are
Involved in charges of communism. It is the urgent and sincere hope of local
1021 that this respected professional organization within the American Federa-
tion of Labor not be confused witfi a group that lost its charter by action of the
American Federation of Teachers. Respectfully, Walter S. Thomas, president,
local 1021, American Federation of Teachers, 3787% Maple Avenue, Venice, Calif.
My recollection is that according to the testimony of Prof. LeRoy
Herndon, he made it clear that local 430 had its charter removed be-
cause of the Communist charges, and that the local had been entirely
reorganized.
Mr. Clardy. Didn't you make it pretty clear that the federation
that sent this telegram was not in any way being charged with any-
thing, despite the outburst of the witness on the stand toward the close
yesterday ?
Mr. Tavenner. I thought that was perfectly clear.
Mr. Clardy. I am sure it was. Here is another one.
Mr. Jackson. Counsel, I would suggest, inasmuch as we have a
number of these, that we hold them until we have disposed of several
of the witnesses, and then take the balance of them up at that time.
Who is your first witness?
Mr. Tavenner. Harry Steinmetz.
APPEARANCE OF HARRY C. STEINMETZ, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, ROBERT W. KENNY
(Representative Francis E. Walter entered the hearing room at
this point, 2 : 10 p. m.)
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Steinmetz, will you stand and be sworn ? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give to this sub-
590 COIMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Steinmetz. Yes.
Mr. Kexny. At this point, Mr. Chairman, Dr. Steinmetz objects to
giving any testimony as long as the proceedings are audioly or visually
televised.
Mr. Jackson. Very well. In accord with the demand of the witness
and in line with tlie decision voted unanimously by the committee
this noon, Profe^^sor Steinmetz will be laid over, hi^ subpena will be
extended until Monday, April 6, at which time he wilj appear before
a subcommittee of the House committee.
Mr. Kenny. What time ?
Mr. Jackson. You will be notified.
Mr. Clardy. May I suggest, Mr. Kenny, if I am not out of turn,
Mr. Chairman, that if you represent any other witnesses, you let the
witnesses speak for themselves on that. It is a committee rule.
Mr. Kenny. Unfortunately, I do not represent any other witnesses.
I must say that this is the first time I have been called out of order,
and I think Chairman Jackson will agree with me on that.
Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.
Mr. Clardy. I didn't call you out of order. I am making a sug--
gestion.
Mr. Jackson. I would say that I have had no complaint with the
conduct of this counsel.
Mr. Kenny. To date.
Mr. Jackson. To date, with reservations for the future, Mr. Kenny.
Mr. Clardy. That is what I had in mind.
Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness, 'please.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Bernard Lusher.
Mr. Margolis. My name is Ben Margolis. I represent Mr. Lusher,
and he will be here in a few minutes. It was my fault in notifying him
late that he would be on this afternoon. He is on his way and should
be here in 10, 15, or 20 minutes.
Mr. Jackson. Do you have another witness. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment, please.
Mr. D0YI.E. Mr. Chairman, while we are waiting on that witness, it
seems to me that I have something here that is very pertinent and very
valuable. I might state that because I wanted information from the.
Congressional Library in "Washington as to the w^ords "un-American"
and "subversive," I communicated to the Library of Congress, and
on February 24, 1953, 1 received a reply from the Library of Congress
on that subject.
I just have one short, paragraph which I wish to give for the infor-
mation of the committee and those who are here. They referred me
to the decision in the case of the United States v. Bryan^ 72 Fed. Sup.
5863, United States Circuit Court of Appeals, and the Library of
Congress said :
In that case it was argued the resolution authorizing the committee —
and, by the way, that is Public Law 601 —
at that time it was unconstitutional because it was too indefinite, in that the
words "un-American" and "subversive" were not defined, did not have a precise
and well-established meaning.
In reply the court said, "Many an act of Congress may be found in which gen-'
eral terminology is intentionally or unintentionally employed. The committee is
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 591
directed to investigate un-American and subversive activities. The exact scope
of an investigation cannot always be cliarted and bounded in advance with the
precision of a survey. Some discretion must be left to those to whom the task
is being entrusted. If we analyze the words 'un-American' and 'subversive,'
there are some activities which everyone will agree are un-American and sub- ■
versive. There may well be differences of opinion as to the exact application
or meaning of these terms or as to whether some particular activity falls in one
class or the other. This circumstance, however, does not deprive Congress of
the power to investigate un-American and subversive activity for the purpose
of carrying out its duties to vest in the investigating committee the discretion to
make a determination as to what activities are compressed wihin these two
terms."
I felt it appropriate to read that at this time because many people
have asked on that subject.
Mr. Jacksox. Counsel, if you have several more of those disclaimers,
it might be well to read them while we are waiting.
Mr. Ta\'enner. A message has been received from Robert T. Car-
son, of 1231 Harvard — I don't know. That is probably the street
address.
Mr. Jackson. Harvard Street, probably.
Mr. Tavenner. In which he states that he is not the man mentioned
on the air this morning.
A person by the name of Michael Frank, whose address is 1139 18th
Street, Santa Monica, advises that he is not the party mentioned and
is not the same Michael Frank as was mentioned by the witness Mrs.
Macia. I think I have read them all. I am sure I have.
Mr. Jackson. I have one additional one here, having to do with a
Cliff Stiss, who was mentioned by a witness today. Unfortunately
the telegram is signed by a business concern, and I am sure that the
sender of the telegram will appreciate the fact that the reason I cannot
read it is quite obvious. There is quite a listening audience, I imagine,
and the committee is very anxious to disassociate itself in any way
from any business enterprise in this connection. If a telegram will be
sent back in that can be worded in some other manner, the committee
will be glad to consider reading it.
Mr. Tavenner. I am advised that Mr. Lusher is now here.
Mr. Jackson, Mr. Lusher.
You solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give shall
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help vou
God ? ^I'J
Mr. Lusher. I do.
Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF BERNARD LUSHER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, BEN MARGOLIS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Lusher. Would you kindly wait until the photographers are
through, please?
]\Ir. Tavenner. Certainly.
Wliat is your name, please?
Mr. Lusher. The name is Bernard Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, for the
record I would like to make it clear that I am here only because I
have been sul)peuaed, and that I am most proud to announce that I am
unfriendly to this committee.
592 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Clardy. How do you spell your last name ?
Mr. LusHEK. Lusher, L-u-s-h-e-r.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel?
Mr. Lusher. I am, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record?
JNIr. Margolis. My name is Ben Margolis.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Lusher ?
Mr. Lusher. Cleveland, Ohio, April 1913.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Lusher. Union organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. Pardon me ?
Mr. Lusher. Union organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?
Mr. I USHER. Mr. Tavenner, I will answer these questions, but I
would like to say I am most reluctant to do so, because I don't like to
help this committee, no matter how indirectly, to carry out its attack
against academic freedom.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, it is quite apparent that you don't want to
help the committee, but I am asking you to do it as far as you feel
you can.
Mr. Lusher. I went to grade school in Cleveland, Ohio, high school
in Los Angeles, and UCLA for about 3 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee, please, a record of
your employment since 1940 ?
Mr. Lusher. In 1940 I was employed as a clerical worker at the
Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios. Since then I have been — in 1941 I
became a union organizer and I have been a union organizer except
for shortly less than a year which I spent in the Army in 1945.
Mr. Walter. I suppose when you said that you were also aware
of the fact that a member of this committee wrote the Government
contract law?
Mr. Lusher. I was not aware that he was the author.
Mr. Walter. So that when you address your remarks to the com-
mittee you will probably say with the exception of those members of
the committee who have made substantial contributions to the Ameri-
can way, toward the betterment and improvement of working-class
people.
Mr. Lusher. Well, Mr. Walter, I have seen this committee on many
occasions turn up, I don't believe coincidentally, at a time when groups
of workers were fighting for higher wages and were in the middle of
a crucial strike, and in so doing assist the employers in holding their
employees down in terms of their wages and working conditions.
Mr. Walter. That, sir, is absolutely untrue, because in every in-
stance when a Communist or one who has been believed to be in the
Communist Party who, incidentally, was employed with a labor organ-
ization has been subpenaed before this committee and requested a
postponement because of a conflict, the request has been granted.
That is the record of this committee.
Mr. Doyle. That is correct. I join in the statement [that of Con-
gressman Walter], and your [that of the witness] statement, sir, is
absolutely false. I know that. I live in Los Angeles County myself.
Mr. Jackson. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Lusher. My information, gentlemen, is contrary.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 593
Mr. Doyle. Your information is, I know, not founded in fact.
Mr. Jacksox. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Screen Office Employees'
Guild in 1944?
Mr. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, I must decline to answer that question,
and I should like to explain my reasons for so declining. I shall be
brief. My first reason is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights of
the United States was written by a Congress which w^as interested in
protecting the civil rights and freedom of the American people, and
I do not choose by cooperating with this particular group of Con-
gressmen to tear down what the other Congressmen built up.
My second reason is that I believe this committee to be illegal and
to be pursuing an illegal objective, because the congressional com-
mittees are supposedly set up to gather facts for introduction of legis-
lation, and since the purpose of this committee itself interferes with
a freedom of speech and association and of religion, and since the
Constitution prohibits such restriction, this committee can have no
legal objective.
Thirdly, I believe this committee has assisted employers, as I have
said, in holding down wages and working conditions, and since I am
a union man, a trade unionist, I believe that to help this committee
would be to help this committee accomplish its job of union busting.
Fourth, I base my declination to answer on the first amendment to
the Constitution, which guarantees freedom of speech, association,
religion, and assembly, and I believe that your inquiry into my beliefs
and into my association is prohibited under that section of the
Constitution.
Finally, and particularly, I base my declination to answer on the
fifth amendment to the Constitution, which gives me a right to refuse
to testify against myself. I would like, in the course of calling or
standing upon the rights guaranteed to me by the fifth amendment to
refuse to testify against myself, to call the attention of this committee
to someone who is probably the best known figure in the world, who
has set down something which perhaps is similar to the fifth amend-
ment, and although I am Jewish, I refer to Jesus Christ, and I would
like to quote, a very short quote, which I think will indicate that the
fifth amendment is not something new. This is a quote from Mark 25 :
2-5, and I quote from the Bible :
And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said
unto him, Thou sayest it.
And the chief priests accused liim of many things ; but he answered nothing.
And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? Behold how
many things they witness against thee.
But Jesus yet answered nothing ; so that Pilate marvelled.
And that is the end of the quote, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Clardy. Did you ever hear a Communist cite any section of
the Bible?
[Laughter.]
Mr. Lusher. I must decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated, Mr. Congressman.
Mr. Jackson. The witness must be given a hearing by the com-
mittee. Please give no demonstration of approval or disapproval.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Jackson, just to answer the witness' attack upon
members of this conmiittee with reference to their attitude toward
31747 — 53 — pt. 2— — 11
594 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
or<Tanizecl labor, Mr. Clardy and I have only been on this committee
for 3 months, but I think that it should be pointed out, to show the
lie of the statement made by the witness, and I don't merely — because
it happened to me I hesitate to say it, but I think we should know
that there is no basis in fact for a statement such as has been made by
this witness. In the last few years two locals of national unions gave
to me citations for efforts that I have put forth in behalf of organized
labor. A minority group, in the State from which I come, awarded me
a plaque a few years ago for my efforts on behalf of minority groups,
so I greatly resent the statement made by this witness, because he
knows not whereof he speaks.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, may I ask
Mr. Jackson. No ; we are going to continue with the inquiry.
JNIr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, may I, however, at this point say that I
think perhaps this is the place for me to say a word, because I am a
Los Angeles County Congressman.
In view of the gentleman's allegation of union-busting at the hands
of this committee, which I say is absolutely false, and I repeat it, I
think I should say this, so the gentleman will understand my attitude
about union-busting.
I think it is well-known that I received in every one of my campaigns
for election — I am in my fourth term now — and I am very proud of the
fact, I have received the endorsement of AFL and CIO.
May I say to you, however, that this committee is aware of the fact
of certain people in labor who are subversive, and if unions are led
by subversive people, why, then, of course, we are cooperating with
the unions to uncover and expose those subversive activities.
If that is the kind of activity you refer to, when you refer to activi-
ties of this committee, we do cooperate at all levels of American- life
with folks who want to get rid of this subversive leadership. Other
than that, this committee is not acting.
Mr. Lusher. Mr. Doyle, I refer to strikebreaking activities of the
committee, such as recently took place
Mr. Jackson. Just a moment. If we engage in byplay and answers
and counteranswers we will be here all night.
Mr. Walter. No. I think he ought to continue.
Mr. Jackson. No. The witness and members of the committee have
taken 10 minutes apiece. Everything is even.
Mr. Counsel, will you continue.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I can't refrain from making one state-
ment. All but one member of this committee is a lawyer. Of all the
unions in the United States, I think the lawyers' union is the tightest.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you take any part in the negotiations between
the United Office and Professional Workers of America and the leader-
ship in the CIO, in the dispute that took place when the United
Office and Professional Workers of America were expelled from
membership in the CIO ?
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lusher. INIr. Tavenner, I must refuse to answer that question
on all the grounds stated previously, including the fifth amendment
to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Jackson. May I say, sir, you are under no compulsion to answer.
You said, "I must refuse to answer."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 595
Your declination can simply be that you refuse to answer for the
reasons previously given.
Mr. Lusher. Mr. Jackson, it is my conscience and my beliefs that
make me say I must refuse to answer,
Mr. Jackson. I still want the record to show you are under no com-
pulsion to answer. You can decline to answer for the reasons previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Were you organizer of Branch N-2 of the Com-
munist Party among the secretaries' union, which was known as the
Screen Office Employees' Guild?
]\Ir. Lusher. JNIr. Tavenner, I must decline to answer that question
on all the grounds stated previously.
jNIr. Clardy. Mr. Counsel, have you yet asked him what union he
is an organizer for?
Mr. Tavenner. No, I have not.
Mr. Clardy. I suggest you do.
INIr. Ta^tlnner. Except I asked him if he has affiliated with the
United Office and Professional Workers, and he declined to answer.
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Clardy. He has no protection of the fifth amendment on that
question, because he has voluntarily told us he was an organizer.
]Mr. Doyle. Union organizer.
Mr. Clardy. Union organizer. I suggest you ask him that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Of what unions were you an organizer ?
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lusher. I must decline to answer that question, Mr. Tavemier,
on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Clardy. Now I ask the witness be directed to answer the
question.
Mr. Jackson. The witness volunteered the statement he was a union
organizer.
You are directed to answ'er the question.
Mr. Lusher. I volunteered no statement. I answered the question
of Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Jackson. I believe you said since 1940 — my recollection may
not be exact on this, but since 1940 you had been a union organizer.
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lusher. That was an answer to a question, that was not a
voluntary statement.
jNIr. Jackson. Irrespective of whether it was an answer or not, you
did answer that question. Therefore, you are directed to answer the
question just put to you by counsel.
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lusher. Mr. Jackson, my lawyer advises me that you appar-
ently are not aware of the law in this regard, and I believe that I am
correct in standing upon my previous answer.
Mr. Jackson. You decline to answer?
Mr. Lusher. I decline to answer.
Mr. Jackson. Very well.
Mr. Lusher. On all the grounds I have previously stated, including
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Jackson. That is satisfactory.
Mr. Ta\-enner. Have you signed a Taft-Hartley affidavit as an
organizer for any union ?
596 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
(At this point Mr. Liislicr conferred witli Mr. Mai-golis.)
Mr, LusiiEK. i\Ir. Taveiiiier. 1 liave never held a position in the
union which required me to sign these aflidavits.
Mr. TA^^NNER. On what do you base that statement ?
(At this point iVfr. Lusher conferred witli Mr. Mai'golis.)
jSIr. Lush EH. Mr. Tavenner, I have not been an officer of a union and
my understanding of the Taft-Hartley law is only officers of unions
are required to comply with that section of the law.
jNIr. "Waltek. Tluit is right.
Mr. Tavenxek. So your position is that as an organizer; you were
not the type of officer or not an officer who is required to sign a Taft-
Hartley affidavit.
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lusher. I was not required to sign a Taft-Hartley affidavit
because of my position.
Mr. Taat.nner. Mr. Chairman, this is very close to the problem that
the committee considered and made a recommendation to Congress on
a year or more ago, where the Army and Navy, in construing the secu-
rity, various security laws, concluded that an officer of a union did not
ha^e to be cleared Avho'e that union was engaged in defense contracts,
where the Atomic Energy Commission, in construing the laws applica-
ble to it, construed the law so as to require all officers of a union to be
cleared.
Mr. Walter. But there is a difference in the language in the Atomic
Energy Act. There is a difference.
Mr. Tavenner. That is right.
Mr. "Walter. That is the difference.
Mr. Taa^nner. That is why I am pointing the matter out. The
language is different in all the acts.
Mr. Clardt. And because you think, Mr. Tavenner, there may be
some necessity for an amendment to the statute— —
Mr. TA^^:NNER. It may be just as important that an organizer for
a union be required to sign the Taft-Hartley affidavit as it would be
for the president of a local. In fact, the organizer may have even
greater powers than the president of the local. I am not certain about
that.
Mr. Walter. Mr. Tavenner, the law is well understood along that
line.
Mr. Clardy. Your point being there may be some need for a recom-
mendation for legislation along that line?
Mr. Tavenner. Certainly it is a matter to be considered.
Were you a member of the Communist Party at any time while you
were on organizer?
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lusher. INIr. Tavenner, I Avill answer no questions of that
character, I stand upon all of the reasons previously given, includ-
ing the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. Taitcnner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis,)
Mr. Lusher. Same answer.
Mr. TA^^NNER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardt. I want to pursue 1 angle a little further. Are you
at the moment an organizer for some union ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 597
Mr. Lusher. I am unemployed at the moment.
Mr. Clardy. Since when did you cease to be an organizer for a
union, if you have actually ceased?
Mr. Lusher. Today.
Mr. Clardy. This morning ?
Mr. Lusher. Tliat is right.
Mr. Clardy. Was that a voluntary severance ?
Mr. Lusher. That is right, I resigned some time ago, effective as
of today.
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Clardy. Do you expect to resume as an organizer after this
hearing is over ?
Mr. Lusher. No, I do not.
Mr. Clardy. Wliat was the name of the union ?
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lusher. I am sorry, I didn't hear your question. I would like
to say, by the way, these hearings have had absolutely nothing to do
with my resignation, which was submitted considerably in advance of
these hearings, or subpenas to these hearings.
Mr. Clardy. You are not charging us with anything in connection
with that, then ?
Mr. Lusher. No.
Mr. Clardy. What was the name of the union you last served as an
organizer ?
Mr. I^usher. I must decline to answer that question upon all the
grounds I previously stated.
Mr. Clardy. I again ask the witness be directed to answer, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Jackson. Not being clear in my recollection whether that di-
rection has been given on that question, I will direct the witness.
Mr. Lusher. I must decline to answer that question on all the
grounds previously stated, including the fifth amendment to the Con-
stitution.
Mr, Clardy. Do I correctly understand your prior statement to be,
no matter how far I may pursue that line of inquiry concerning your
past connections, you will refuse to answer on the same grounds?
that will shorten this.
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lusher. I am not quite sure I understand your question.
Mr. Clardy. Maybe I didn't understand you. I understood you a
moment ago to tell Mr. Tavenner you would decline to answer any
further questions concerning your Communist activities or your con-
nections as a union organizer, upon the same grounds already advanced.
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Clardy. Now I want to discover whether you are going to con-
tinue to do that, so I may not be bothering you with further questions.
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lusher. Mr. Clardy, no matter how many ways you ask me
what unions I have been associated with or organizer for or member
of, I will continue to refuse to answer for the reasons I have previously
enumerated.
Mr. Clardy. I thought that was what your answer was, but I wanted
it clear in the record. That is all.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer?
31747— 53— pt. 2 12
598 COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. ScHERER. No questions.
■'■■ Mr. Jackson. Mr. Walter?
Mr. Walter. No questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Moulder ?
Mr. JNlouLDER. No questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. Just one question. Mr. Lusher, I know you are aware of
the law, Public Law 601, under which this committee operates, aren't
you ?
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Doyle. From your statement, I just assume that you don't want
to help the committee in any way, and that you are therefore familiar
with the laAv under which we are operatinc:.. Or did you make that
statement without knowing the law under which we are operating?
Mr. Lusher. Yes; I am familiar with it to a certain extent.
Mr. Doyle. You know that under Public Law 601 we are charged
with investigating subversive activities and propaganda throughout
the country? You are familiar with that objective of the law?
Mr. Lusher. Well, I know, for example, that propaganda, in my
opinion, has connection with things that are spoken and written, and
I believe that the Constittuion prohibits this Congress from making
laws in regard to freedom of speech, assembly, and other protections
of the first amendment.
Mr. Doyle. Of course. Congress has no authority to make any law
in violation of the Constitution. But, of course, the Supreme Court
of the United States is the final judge of whether or not any law passed
by Congress is unconstitutional, and the United States Supreme Court
has not said Public Law 601 is unconstitutional. So we are operating
under a constitutional law, so far as the American people and the court 5
are concerned.
The purport, however, of my question was this : I wondered if you
are also familiar with Public Law 831, section 2, in which Congress
declared there was a world Communist movement infiltrating in the
Government through espionage and sabotage and terrorism, to estab-
lish a Communist totalitarian government in the world.
Are you familiar with that?
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lusher. Will you tell me the name of that act? Perhaps the
numbers don't mean much to me.
Mr. Doyle. Here is the Subversive Activities Control Act. I hand
you the text of it, as it is so designated, for identification. You can
hand it to your counsel. He will show you the number of it, and sec-
tion 2, the first paragi-aph thereof.
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. Lusih:r. Yes ; I am familiar, not in tremendous detail, but I am
familiar with that law. I believe it is called the McCarran Act, it
I am not mistaken. I think it is probably the only law ever passed
that is Avorse than the Alien and Sedition Act.
Among other things, as I understand, it sets up concentration
camps in America for the first time.
Mr. Doyle. Well, it doesn't do that. May I have it again, please,
sir?
The thing I wanted to know is whether or not you are familiar
with the fact that your Congi'ess, sir, in paragraph 1, declared
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 599
th'at there was a world Communist movement to establish a Com-
munist totalitarian dictatorship in the world. Now, that is plain
language, and I just wanted to know if you were familiar with the
fact that your Congress has so declared in this act. I don't expect you
to be familiar with all of the terms of the act,
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mi-. Lusher. I know it because you just told me so; yes.
Mr. DoYUE. Somehow I felt that you hadn't known before. I just
kind of felt that you were not familiar with the fact that your own
Congress had declared that this world Communist conspiracy existed.
Now, the reason I said that I felt that you couldn't know that was
(At this point Mr. Lusher conferred with Mr. Margolis.)
Mr. DoTLE. I will wait until you get through conferring with your
counsel.
Mr. Lustier. Are you finished, Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. No. I just said that I sort of felt that you did not
know that 3'our United States Congress had made that declaration,
because I felt that if you had known that, you would not have said
as you did, and I wrote down your exact words : "I don't want to help
this congressional committee in any way."
I thin.k that is all.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Frazier ?
Mr. FRAzreR. No questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Moulder?
Mr. Moulder. I want to ask you one question, Mr. Lusher, as to
what rights do organized laborers or the laborers of Russia have to
organize unions.
Mr. Lusher. I am not familiar with the labor laws to which you
refer.
Mr. IMouLDER. Isn't it the truth that they have no rights whatso-
ever ?
Mr. Lusher. I have no direct knowledge,
Mr. Moulder. They are not recognized or permitted in Russia;
isn't that true ?
Mr. Lusher. I have no direct knowledge, Mr. Moulder.
Mr, Jackson. Any further questions?
Mr. Ta\'enner. No further questions.
Mr. Jackson. Any reason why the witness should not be excused?
Mr. TA^^:NNER. No, sir.
Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.
Next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ben Maddow.
Mr. Jackson. Raise your right hand, sir. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Maddow. I do.
Mr. Jackson. Proceed, counsel.
TESTIMONY OF BEN MADDOW, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
J. B. TIETZ
Mr. Taa^enner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Maddow. Ben Maddow.
Mr. Taa-enner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Maddow. Yes ; I am.
600 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. TiETz. Tietz.
Mr. Frazier. I didn't get the first name.
Mr. Tietz. J. B. are the initials. Los Angeles.
Mr. Jackson. Would you spell your name, sir?
Mr. Maddow. M-a-d-d-o-w.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you bom, Mr. Maddow ?
Mr. Maddow. I was born in Passaic, N. J., in 1909.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ?
Mr. Maddow. I reside in Los Angeles.
Mr. Ta\'enner. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Maddow. I am a writer.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Maddow. Well, after grammar and high school in my home
town, I attended Columbia University for 4 years.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you complete your training at Columbia
University ?
Mr. Maddow. In 1930.
Mr. Tavenner. What?
Mr. Maddow. 1930.
Mr. Tavenner. How have you been employed since that time, since
1930, 1 mean in a general way ? Just describe it in a general way.
Mr. Maddow. I was unemployed for about 2 years from 1930 to
about 1932, and then the following 3 years I spent as an orderly in a
hospital in New York.
The 3 years following I spent as an employee of the Emergency
Eelief Bureau in New York City.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to California?
Mr. Maddow. I think the first time I saw California was from a
troop train, but I was employed here
Mr. Tavenner. Proceed and tell us how you were employed in New
York before you came to California.
Mr. Maddow. I think I left my employment in the Emergency Re-
lief Bureau in about 1938, would be my estimate, and between that
time and my entry into the Army I was a free-lance writer and did a
considerable amount of work in industrial and documentary tihns,
small films.
Mr. Tavenner. And when did you come to California for the pur-
pose of resuming your work as a writer ?
Mr. Maddow. Upon my discharge from the Army, which was in
October of 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. How have you practiced your profession since that
date, in what way ? As a free-lance writer or screen writer or what ?
Mr. Maddow. I have been a screen writer during the major portion
of that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat have been some of your principal screen
credits?
Mr. Maddow. To go back to the earliest one, I worked for Columbia
Pictures. I wrote a film called Framed, I think was the name of it,
if I remember correctly.
The second film in which I had a credit, I think it was a split credit,
was A Man From Colorado, a Western.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 601
Two subsequent films were Intruder in the Dust, and a split credit
on Asphalt Jungle.
Following this I did two screenplays for Columbia again. On
neither of these screenplays, however, do I have credit at present, so
it is probably pointless to mention it.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Mr. Maddow, you know, I suppose, that the com-
mittee has been engaged for some time in an investigation of the
Communist infiltration into the amusement field, with special empha-
sis upon the moving pictures, for the purpose of determining what
the real objectives of the Communist Party have been in that field,
and what they have accomplished, including the extent of infiltration
and their methods of operation, and we trust that you will give this
committee the benefit of any knowledge that you have on that subject.
Mr. Maddow. I don't understand. Is that a question, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavt;nner. I am asking you now for your cooperation in telling
the committee all you know about the operations of the Communist
Party in this area, if you have any knowledge of it. Would you do so ?
Mr. JNIaddow. If you will address to me a specific question, I will
endeavor to answer it.
Mr. Tavenner. I was afraid of that. In the course of our investi-
§ation, sworn testimony was taken on March 12, 1953, of Pauline
wanson Townsend, and she admitted her former Communist Party
membership, explained the circumstances under which she left the
party, and during her testimony regarding the operations of the
party as she observed it, the following questions and answers occurred :
Mr. Wheeleb. Will you identify the individuals that you met as Communists,
in the first group?
That was the first group of the Communist Party to which she
herself had been assigned.
Mrs. Townsend. Ben and Norma Barzman, Jay and Sondra Gorney, Pauline
Lauber Finn, Ring Lardner, Alice Hunter, Bill Pomerance, Meta Reis, Richard
Collins, Lewis ^ Allen, Ben Bengal, John Weber.
Mr. Wheeler. How long were you in the first group, Mrs. Townsend?
Mrs. Townsend. A year and a half.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you hold any office in this group?
Mrs. Townsend. At one time I was chairman. Also, I recall Ben Maddow.
Now, was she correct in identifying you as one of that group of the
Communist Party of which she was a member?
(At this point Mr. Maddow conferred with Mr. Tietz.)
Mr. Maddow. Mr. Tavenner, I will decline to answer that question
on the rights and privileges afforded me both by the first amendment
and by the fifth.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Maddow. I will decline to answer that on the gi'ounds previously
cited.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy ?
Mr. Clardy. No. questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Walters ?
Mr. Walter. No questions.
1 Name of Louis Allen on pages 427 and 428, same title, pt. 1, should be Lewis Allen.
602 COMMUNIST ACTWITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA
Mr, Jackson. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. Xo questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Moulder ^
Mr. Moulder. No questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle, No questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Frazier ?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Jackson. Any reason why the witness should not be excused?
Mr, Tavenner. No, sir,
Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.
Mr. Jackson. Who is your next witness, Mr. Counsel?
Mr. Ta\'t:nner. Mr, John Looschen is here, but does not desire to
be televised or testify while the sound equipment is on. He is willing
to state that back out of view of the television cameras.
Mr. Jackson. After Mr. Looschen has been qualified as a witness,
I will be glad to hear his request.
Mr. Margolis. Will you turn off the television cameras while you
qualify him?
Mr. Jackson. I will not.
Mr. Margolis. Mr. Looschen is here and willing to state his position
from his position there. He is not willing to come before the televi-
sion cameras.
(At this point Mr. Jackson conferred with the other members of
the committee. )
Mr. Jackson, Is the witness present in the rear of the room ? If so,
will you express your request ?
Mr. Looschen. I request that the television cameras
Mr. Clardy. Will you speak louder, please ?
Mr. Margolis. Will you wait a minute until they finish with the
pictures, please?
Mr. Clardy. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Will the witness now make his request?
Mr. Looschen. I request that the television and sound be cut off
during my testimony.
]Mr. Jackson. Your subpena will be continued until Monday, April
6, in executive session.
Do you have another witness ?
Mr, Tavenner, Mr. Chairman, you will recall that the witness
Charles Albert Page made an objection to the use of television this
morning and was directed to return at 4 o'clock. I do not know
whether you want to continue to hear him or whether 3-011 desire to
have his matter go over likewise.
Mr. Jackson. That subpena should also be extended until Monday,
April 6, and I believe that we have one additional witness who several
days ago made the request not to be televised. Was there an addi-
tional witness?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, but that Avitness was heard.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Oliver was heard?
Mr. Tavtcnner. No; Mr. Oliver was not heard.
Mr. Jackson. Well, Mr. Oliver's subpena should also be extended.
If there is a passion for anonymity, it should extend equally to all of
the media of public information, and the committee will make appro-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 603
priate press releases upon conclusion of tlie executive hearings, so all
of tkose who have entered objections heretofore to television will be
set over until Monday, April 6, in executive session.
(Representative Francis E. Walter left the hearing room at this
point, 2: 58 p. m.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, there were several other witnesses
slated for this afternoon, but I knew of the circumstances under which
their attorney was to be out of the city, and to have compelled them
to appear would have been to have compelled them to appear without
the benefit of the counsel of their choice, and I took the liberty of
extending them over until Monday, thinking we wouldn't reach them,
anyway, this afternoon.
Mr. Clardy. In addition to the executive session, I think everyone
should know there will be the open session on the other witnesses on
Monday, also, simultaneously.
Mr. Jackson. There will be a regular session of the committee here
on Monday next.
Mr. Moulder. Day after tomorrow.
Mr. Jackson. That is correct. However, the executive session will
be on April 6, which is a week from this coming Monday.
The situation at the moment is that there are no further witnesses
to be heard at this time ?
Mr. Tavenner. That is correct.
Mr. Jackson. The committee then will at this time recess until
9 : 30 on Monday.
(Whereupon, at 3 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 9: 30 a. m.
Monday, March 30, 1953.)
INDEX
Individuals
Fag*
Adams, Charlotte Darling 470,471^78 (testimony)
Adams, Joe 576
Adams, Mary Jane 577
"Allen" (alias for Stone) 582
Allen, Dr. (president, UCLA) 519
Allen, Lewis 439, 601
Allen, Paul 579
Alpert, Hymie 569, 577, 578
Alzar 569,570
Anderson, Joe, (Communist Party name for LeRoy Travers Herndon) 513
Anhattzer, Arthur 577
Anhattzer, Dorothy 577
Anthony, Iva 569
Anthony, Vern . 569
Ashe, Harold 510, 511
Baron, Lillian 575, 588
Barron, Ann Morgan 471
Barzman, Ben 601
Barzman, Norma . 601
Beck, George 440, 442
Becker, Zara 516, 539
Bengal, Ben 601
Bernback, Arthur 525
Bernbach, Fred 525
Bernstein, Sanford 579
Bevis, Dr 519, 520
Biberman, Ed 472-474
Bindley, Mary 576
Bomser, Allan 570, 577
Bomser, Edith 570, 577
Bookshin, Nat 570
Boyagian, Anita (Chatinover) 575
Brodsky, Joe 570
Brooks, Lawn 579
Browder, Earl 448, 449, 580
Browne, Gus 579
Browne, Marsha 579
Burrows, Abe 451
Bryan 590
Byrne, Norman 509, 512, 516, 539, 586
Callender, Jane 579
Campbell, Harry 576
Carey, Honors 516, 539
Carr, Joe 576
Carson, Charles 588
Carson, Robert T 591
Chaplin, Charles 502
Chassen, Jack 569
Chassen, Miriam (Mrs. Jack Chassen) 569
Chatinover (see also Anita Boyagian) 575
Clark, Maurice 451
605
606 INDEX
Page
Collins, Richard «01
Cooper, Gary 463
Dare, Danny 469
DarlinK, Byron T 519, 520
Dawson, ?:rnest 577, 580
Dawson, Sadie (Mrs. Ernest Dawson) 577
DeMille, Mr 463
Dicho, John 570
Dimsdale, Harold 570
Dolierty, John 570
Downs, Tommy 579
Drdlik, Frank 476
Dreyfus, Rose 570
Duclos 448, 580
Ellis, Charles (name changed to Charles Stone) 568
Ellis, Shirley (Mrs. Charles Ellis) 568
Emer, Fanny 569
Emer, Frank 569
Englehardt, Jack 569, 580
Esterman, William B 461, 470, 541-556
Finn, Pauline Lauber ("Ol
Fisher, Ed 576
Fisher, Mrs. Ed 576
Fleurv, Bernyce Polifka 472, 473
Foster, William Z 505-507, 580
Frank, Michael 570. 591
Frank, Richard 507, 522
Freeman, Sidney 502
Freud, Mr 580
Freud, Rosalind 570
Freund, Burton •^''0
Gammon, Robert 496, 526, 585, 58(]
Gammon, Robert Frank 526
Ganahl, Herbert 496
Garber, Dora 570
Gerber, Lillian 567
Gerber, Serill 56*
Gervin, Nathan 579
Geyer. Jacob (Ja<'.:» 5^'^
Geyer, Sara (Mvh. Jacob Geyer) 577
Gilbert, Ed 477
Gill>ert, Jo 4b5
Gilbert, Jody 461-469 (testimony)
Gilder, Harry 570
Gladstone, Charles {see also Joe Young) 508,580
Glenn, Elizabeth {see also Elizabeth Leech Glenn; Elizabeth Leech) 442
Glenn, Elizabeth Leech {see also Elizabeth Glenn; Elizabeth Leech) __ 444,447
Gold, L 498
Goldstein, Mary 569, 577
Gomey, Jay 451, 601
Gorney, Sondra (Mrs. Jay Gorney) 6(^1
Handman, Nina 579
Hay, Mar.1orie 512, 516, 539
Heist, A. A 454-456
Herndon, LeRoy Travers, Jr 499-526 (testimony),
529-531, 534, 537, 539, 540, 542, 554, 589
Heron, Lillian 569
Hershey, Edith 569, 578
Hirsch, B 570, 577
Holtz, Doreen 569
Horn, Sam 570, 588, 589
Howe, Jane {see also Anne Kinney) 511,512,554
Hudson, Henry 568
Hunter, Alice 601
Isaacman, Morris 576
Jacobson, Eli 475
INDEX 607
Page
James, Dan 449, 451
James, Lilith (Mrs. Dau James) 451
Jarrico, Paul 488, 492,493
Johnson, Eva 585
Johnston, Edith 568
Jones, Lewis Webster 518, 519
Judis, Harry 570
Judis, Minnie 570
Kalish, Sam 515, 540
Karson, Bobbie 579
Karson, Charles 579, 589
Karson, Ethel 579
Karson, Morris ("Red") 579
Katz, Charles J 497, 586
Kelleher, June (Kay) 577
Kelly, Jane Dawson 577
Kelly. Mary • 441
Itenny. Robert W 470. 587-.591
Kinney, Anne (see also Jane Howe) 511,539,554
Kline, Joe 567
Kline. Rose 562, 567
Kolker. Rose 496
Kusnitz, Sara 568, 571, 578, 580
Landall, Edith 577
Landis. Carole 443
Lang, David 525
Lardner, Ring 601
Lawson. John Howard . 451
Lazar, Jack 569
Lazarns, Simon 478-498 (testimony), 526, 585, 586
Leech, Elizabeth (see also Elizabeth Glenn: Elizabeth Leech Glenn) 442
Lewis, Al 539
I^wis, Matilda 516, 539
Lewis, Richard Byrd 503, 509, 512, 516, 526-^41 ( testimony ), 542, 554
Light. Louise 554
Looschen. John 601
Lorre. Ed 443
Luckenberg. Rosie 446
Lusher, Bernard 590,591-599 (testimony)
Lyndon, Barre '. 451
Lytton, Bart 440-461 (testimony)
McClosky. Joe 576
McDonald. Florence , 575
McKenzie. Fay 443
:\Lacia. Edith 558-589 (testimony). 591
Maddow. Ben : 599-601 (testimony)
Malloy. Rose 575
Malloy. Sophia 575
Mann 580
Margolis, Ben 478-498, 590-500
Marshall, Daniel G 461-469,541-556
Mazer, Herman 576
Merritt, Max J 469
Minkus, Abe (Abraham) 516,539,541-556 (testimony)
Minkus. Libby 516
Mitty. Mrs 568
Moffitt, Robert A 440
Moore. Sam 447
Jlorgan, Ann 449, 450
iMorgan. Anne (see also ]\Irs. Charles E. Morgan) 583
Morgan, Ann Roth 450
Morgan, Mrs. Charles E. (see also Anne Morgan) 584
Moskin. Frank .579
Myer. Irving 576
Narcisenfeld. Harvey 466
Nicol, Edda (party name for Edith Maeia) 559, 560, .562
608 INDEX
Page
Nidiss, Bernie 569
Norman, Billie 568
Norman, Harry 568
Nuraovna, Barta 516, 539
Oleksink, Steve 570
Oleksink, Tillie 570
Oliver, William E 469, 470, 601
O'Neal, John 576
O'Neal, Mrs. John 576
O'Neil, John P 585
Oster, Morris 569, 570, 575
Oster, Nina 575
Ostley, Harold J 498
Page, Charles Albert 470, 587-589 (appearance), 601
Pate, Bob 567
Pate, Helen 567
Perlman, Git 56»
Perlman, Holly 569
Perlman, Maurice 569
Perlman, Norman 569
Polasti, Mr 569
Pomerance, Bill 601
Posell, Rose 509, 539
Praeger, Stanley 451, 453
Pratt, Horace 568
Pratt, Ida 568
Putman, Fred 567, 577
Reichman, Charles 569
Reis, Meta 601
Richards, Ann Roth Morgan (Ann Roth Morgan) 450
Richards, Silvia 439
Roberts, Holland 512
Rol)in.son, Bob 579
Robinson, Marjorie 579
Robson, William N 584, 585
Rohr, Joe 5f>S, 580
Rohr, Myrtle 568
Roman, Seargent 575
Roosevelt, Franklin D., Jr 448
Rubin, Mary 568, 577, 578
Rubin, Sam 568, 577, 578
Rudimon, Sara 570
Salit, Fran 569, 577
Salit, Sophia 569, 577
Samuels, Helen 563
Schneidermann, W 560
Schwartz, Harry 570
Schwartz, Ned 570
Scott, Adrian 451
Sharf, Dave 569, 577
Sharf, Rose . 569, 577
Shepro, Anna 510, 516, 539
Shepro, Harry 509, 510, 516, 539
Sherry, Rose 569
Shultz 496
Silver. Max 553, 554
Sims, Kathleen 488. 489, 492, 496
Smith, Charles Jr — 588
Spivak, Freda 569, 577
Sproul, Dr 519
Steinmetz, Harry C 541, 589-591 (appearance)
Stice, Cliff 576
Stone (alias Allen) 582, 583
Stone, Charles (alias for Charles Ellis) 568, 580
Sun Yat-sen 476
Thomas, Walter S 589
INDEX 609
Page
Tietz, J. B 59^-601
Townsend, Leo 452
Townsend, Pauline Swanson 452, 601
TrachgiB, Frieda 569
Triv^rs, Barry 469, 470
Trivers, Paul 469, 470
Wallace, Henry A 453, 585
Wallace, Jane 506
Warren, Lucy 569
Wayne, John 463
Weber, John 601
Weil, Robert 584, 585
Weinbaum, Sidney 521
Weisiuan, Steven 440-461
Wellman, Ruth H 575
Wexley, John 450
White, Ann 568
Wiena, Lena 575
Wilson, Jane 506
Witkowski, Anne 570
Witkowski, Bert 570
Wolf, Hilton 569
Young, Joe 568
Young, Sandra 568
Organizations
Abraham Lincoln Battalion 513
Abraham Lincoln Brigade 568
American Association of University Professors 507
American Federation of Labor 589, 594
American Federation of Teachers 507, 589
American Federation of Teachers, Local 430 504
American Federation of Teachers, Local 1021 589
American Jewish League Against Communism 469
American League Against War and Fascism 513
American League for Peace and Democracy 513
Artists Front To Win the War 585
Atomic Energy Commission 596
Bank of America, Tarzana 492
Bank of America National Trust and Savings Association 488
Brown Derby 451
Cal-Det Knitting Mill 472
California State Commission on School Districts 526
Caltech 517, 521
Citizens Committee to Preserve American Freedoms 454
City College of Los Angeles 509
Columbia Pictures 600, 601
Columbia University 600
Conference of Studio Unions 449
Congress of Industrial Organizations 488, 594
Contemporary Theater 474, 475
Crane Junior College, Chicago 542
Dawson Bookstore 581
Department of State 538, 539
Ed Fox Productions 472
Emergency Relief Bureau, New York City 600
Federal Bureau of Investigation 451, 459, 559, 574, 575, 581, 585
Ford Motor Company 500
Friends of the Soviet Union 513
Glendale College 500, 503, 509, 521, 527
Hamper Union High School 526
Harvard University 519, 566
Hollywood High School 471
Hollywood Police Department ^^ 466
610 IXDEX
Hollywood Professional secfion of the Communist Party of the United Pas«
States 502, 514
Hollywood-Roosevelt Hotel 443
Holly woinl Wi'iters" .Mobilization 443
tndeijendent I'rotluctions Corporation.-. 479, 482, 488, 489, 492, 495-497, 585, 586
International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers 4S6-491, 494
Jefferson ('Inh of the Coramnuist Party 572, 577
Leon Schlesiufier Productions 472, 475
Libraiy of Conj-ress 590
Los Angeles Board of Education 544
Los Angeles Junior College 471
Los Angeles Teachers' Union 543
Los Angeles Teachers Union, Local 1021 5S9
^letro-Goldwyn-Mayer 592
Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers Union. (See International Union of
Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers.)
Moscow Ti-ials 513
National Education Association 507
Ohio State University 519
Orosi Union High School 500
Princeton Film Center 444
Progressive Book Store 505
Badio Writers' Guild 447
BKO 451
Rockefeller Foundation 444
Roosevelt High School 509
Rutgers University 518, 519, 523, 524
Sacramento Junior College .lOO
San Jose State College ii-ii
Screen Office Employees' Guild 593, 595
Screen Writers' Guild 443, 446, 449, 462
Sears Roebuck 570
Smith College 523
Stanford University 499, 500, 512, 519, 526, 527
State Federation of Teachers 529
Supreme Court 545, 546
Supreme Court of the State of California 498
Supreme Court of the United States 548, 598
Taft-Hartley 595, 596
Teachers' Union 504, 508-512. 527-531, 54(!. 548, 550, 589
Teacher's Union, Local 430 508, 510, 549, 554
Temple University 519
Theater Collective 451
Thirtieth Street Club of the Communist Party 580
Twentieth Century-Fox 453
Union Bank 495
United Otfice and Professional Workers of America 594, 595
United States Air Force 519
United States Army 592,596,600
United States Circuit Court of Appeals 500
United States Navy 527,533,596
University of Arizona 558
University of California 519
University of California at Los Angeles 519,542,592
University of New Mexico 500
University of Southern California 500,568,579
USO 443
Voice of America '. 459
West Adams Club of the Communist Party 561, 571, 572. 580
West Adams AVoinen's Club 572,573,575,578
Young Communist League 507,522
INDEX 611
•
Publications
Page
Cincinnati Enquirer 519
Tlie Communist 507, 522
Daily Worlvcr 565
Hollywood Citizen-News 487
Los Angeles Herald-Express 467
New Masses 513
New Theater Magazine 475
People's World 513, 568
Political Affairs 565
The School and the People's Front 507, 522
Toward Soviet America 506, 507
The Worker 565
o
:l^
.#
Live Music Archive
Librivox Free Audio
Metropolitan Museum
Cleveland Museum of Art
Internet Arcade
Console Living Room
Books to Borrow
Open Library
TV News
Understanding 9/11