Investigation of Communist activities in the Los Angeles area. Hearings

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES
IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA-Part 4

;•: tfl!** not'!!' '

BEFO:pE THE h li L

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-THIED CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

APRIL 7 AND 8, 1953

Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities

INCLUDING INDEX

UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICH
31747 WASHINGTON : 1953

Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents

JUN 1 8 1S53

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES

United States House of Representatives

HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois, Chairman

BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania

DONALD L. JACKSON, California MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri

KIT CLARDY, Michigan CLYDE DOYLE, California

GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee

Robert L. Kunzig, Counsel

Frank S. Tavennkr, Jr., Counsel

LoDis J. Russell, Chief Investigator

THOMAS W. BEALB, Sr.. ChicJ Clerk

Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research

n

CONTENTS

April 7, 1953:

Testimony of— Page

Harry C. Steinmetz 718

Harry Shepro 736

Norman Byrne 749

Rose Posell 752

Serrill Gerber 757

Charles A. Page 762

William E. Oliver 773

Rose Posell (recalled) 784

John Looschen 787

Sam Albert 788

April 8, 1953:

Testimony of —

Murry Wagner 797

Bernard Skadron 800

Virginia Mullen 807

Gertrude Purcell 811

Robert Waclisman 813

Clement Wilenchick 815

Frank Tarloff 816

Shimen Ruskin 819

Ned Young 821

Sol Kaplan 826

Dan McCombe 836

Index 843

m

The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American Activities
operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter 753, 2d session, which
provides :

Be it enacted ty the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES

Rule X

STANDING COMMITTEES

« « * df * « «

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.

Rule XI

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.

(A) Un-American activities.

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Consti-
tion, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session ) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.

RULES ADOPTED BY THE 83D CONGRESS

House Resolution 5, January 3, 1953

*******

Rule X

STANDING COMMITTEES

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con-
gress, the following standing committees:

*******

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.

*******

Rule XI

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******

17. Committee on Un-American Activities.

(a) Un-American Activities.

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop-
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteeed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session ) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.

VI

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES AREA— Part 4

TUESDAY, APRIL 7, 1953

United States House of Representatives,

Committee on Un-American AcxivmES,

Los Angeles^ Calif.

PUBLIC hearings

Tlie Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to call, at
9 : 40 a. m., in room 518, Federal Building, Hon. Donald L. Jackson
(acting chairman) presiding.

Committee members present: Representative Donald L. Jackson
(acting chairman) and Clyde Doyle.

Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Thomas
W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk; and William A. Wheeler, investigator.

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order.

By virtue of the authority vested in the House Committee on Un-
American Activities, the chairman of the committee, the Honorable
Harold H. Velde, has appointed a subcommittee of two members, Mr.
Doyle and myself, for the purpose of taking further testimony today
and tomorrow.

The audience is reminded again that no expression of approval or
disapproval will be countenanced. Any demonstration will result
in the clearing of the hearing room.

Under the procedure agreed upon last week, there will be neither
television nor radio broadcasts of the present sessions, although the
press is present to give the fullest possible coverage to the hearings.

Who is your first witness, Mr. Counsel ?

Mr. Tavenner. Before calling the first witness, Mr. Velde, the
chairman, has suggested that several documents be read into the record.

Mr. Jackson. All right.

Mr. Tavenner. This is a telegram to the chairman of the committee
from Mr. Robert Sloane, of 6 Lynn Road, Port Washington, Long
Island, N. Y., which reads as follows :

In order to correct a confusion of identities which has arisen from the testi-
mony given your committee by Harold Hecht in Los Angeles on March 24, I am
wiring to inform you that the name Robert Sloane which was mentioned in
Hecht's testimony does not refer to the undersigned, who is, in fact, an ardent
anti-Communist and a leading participant in the anti-Communist movements in
the Radio Writers' Guild and the American Federation of Television and Radio
Artists. The confusion arose from the fact that there appear to be two Robert
Sloanes. Hecht has advised me that he has telegraphed your committee in
Los Angeles to the effect that the Robert Sloane he referred to in his testimony
was a former worker in the Federal theater project with which Hecht was
associated at the time. Since I at no time have worked for the Federal theater
project and since I have never known Mr. Hecht, it is of the utmost importance

717

718 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

to set the records straight. Under separate cover, I am mailing you a sworn
statement that I am not a Communist, never have been, and have never been
connected with any pro-Communist or subversive organization.

I may add, Mr. Chairman, that a telegram was received from Mr.
Hecht, as indicated in this telegram. Then, since the receipt of the
telegram, the chairman has received an affidavit of Mr. Kobert Sloane,
which is as follows :

City, County, and State of New York, «.«;

Robert Sloane being duly sworn, disposes and says: I am a citizen of the
United States and reside at 6 Lynn Road, Port Washington, Long Island, N. Y.

I am not now nor ever have been a Communist or a member of the Communist
Party ; nor have I ever been a member of any procommunistic or subversive
organization.

I am a member of the Radio Writers' Guild and the American Federation of
Television and Kadio Artists, in which organizations I am an active participant
in the anti-Communist movements.

I have never been allied, associated or connected with the Federal theater
project.

I do not know a person named Harold Hecht.

This affidavit is made for the purpose of distinguishing deponent from a person
of similar name who was mentioned by Harold Hecht in testimony given March
24, 1953, at Los Angeles, Calif., before the House Committee ou Un-American

Activities.

Robert Sloane.

Sworn to before me this 2d of April 1953.

Nathanibh. Cabmen. With the notarial seal attached.

Harry Steinmetz is the first witness I desire to call.

TESTIMONY OF HARRY C. STEINMETZ, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS

COUNSEL, ROBERT W. KENNY

Mr. Jackson. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Dr. Steinmetz. Yes.

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?

Dr. Steinmetz. My name is Harry C. Steinmetz.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Dr. Steinmetz. I am.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?

Mr. Kenny. Robert W. Kenny.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?

Dr. Steinmetz. I was born in Seattle, 'Wash., in December 1898.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ?

Dr. Steinmetz. My profession is that of teacher and psychologist.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you now reside ?

Dr. Steinmetz. San Diego, Calif.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state brieflj^ for the coimnittee what
your formal education has been ?

Dr. Steinmetz. I was graduated from Copiz Provincial High
School in the Philippine Islands, where my parents were Baptist medi-
cal missionaries.

I subsequently have attended McManville College in Oregon, since
named Linfield, Oreg., State Normal School, the University of Wash-
ington. I also attended the University of the Philippines, Stanford

COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 719

University, University of California in Berkeley where I received my
bachelor's degree in English in 1924.

Tlie University of Southern California where I received my master's
degree in educational psychology in 1927. And Purdue University
where I received my doctor of philosophy degree in applied psy-
cholog3\

I have also attended other schools and had postdoctoral training
in psychotherapy.

Mr. Ta\tenner. What has been your field in the teaching profession,
Dr. Steinmetz?

Dr. Steinmetz. My field has been psychology, although where I am
employed now, I began the instruction of philosophy and was for a
time director of the extension division in psychology. The last 8 or
10 3^ears has been clinical.

Mr. Tavenner. Where are you now employed as a teacher ?

Dr. Steinmetz, San Diego State College during the last 23 years,
except for 14 months at Purdue University and summer sessions at
San Francisco State College, the University of Cincinnati, New York
University.

I have also been employed in private practice briefly in various
capacities. If you want my employment

Mr, Tavenner. What do you mean by private practice?

Dr. Steinmetz. I mean either, for example, as consultant in person-
nel researcli metliods for the United States Naval Training Station
in San Diego. That was a long time ago.

Mr. Ta\t-:nner. About when was that?

Dr. Steinmetz. About 1931.

Mr. Tavenner. For how long a period of time were you such
consultant?

Dr. Steinmetz. Very part-time work. I have also advised em-
ployers and in personnel methods. I have written on the subject. I
have made some little income during the years as a journalist and as
a writer of books and articles.

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Steinmetz, have you been a member of the
American Federation of Teachers at any time during your professional
career ?

Dr. Stein mj:tz. Yes, Mr. Tavenner, I have been.

Mr. Tavenner. "\Ylien did you become a member of that organi-
zation ?

Dr. Steinmetz. I think it was about 1935.

Mr. Tavenner, What local group or union did you become a mem-
ber of?

Dr. Steinivietz, The San Diego local. I forget the number of it
now, really — 320, 1 think, or something like that. I was national vice
president of tlie American Fedei-ation of Teachers for 2 years, 1936
to 1938.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you held any other positions on a national
level in the American Federation of Teachers?

Dr. Steinmetz. Not that I recall.

Mr. Ta\'enner. Did you hold at any time a position on the State
level in that organization, that is, American Federation of Teachers?

(At this point Mr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

720 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Dr. Steinmetz. That was a long time ago, Mr. Tavenner. If you
have a specific office in mind, it might refresh my memory if you would
ask me about it.

Mr. Tavenxer. I only asked you to give us the benefit of your best
recollection.

Dr. Steinzvietz. Really, I believe that I was — I believe that I was
vice president once. It was not a functional office. I don't remember.
That was about 16 years ago.

Mr. Tavenner. How long ago was it ?

Dr. Steinmetz. About that, 15 years maybe. I don't know.

Mr. Tavenner. And that would be about 1938 then.

Dr. Si'EiNMETz. I would presume it would be about then.

Mr, Tavenner. Did you also hold at any time a position in your
local union, that is, the one you referred to as, I believe, 320?

Dr. Steinmetz. Yes, I did. I held several positions. I haven't had
anv occasion to review those latelv. I didn't know you were going to
pursue this line of questioning. I didn't have the benefit of previous
rehearsal, as some of your witnesses have had.

Mr. Doyle. Did you ask for it ?

Dr. Steinmetz. I am proud to say that I did not.

Mr. Dotle. All right.

Mr. Tavenner. I understand the difficulty, of course, in arriving at
definite dates, and I only ask you to be as accurate as your recollection
may be on the matter.

Are you considering the question that I asked?

Let me repeat the question : What positions did you hold on the local
level in your union, that is, local 320, fixing the date as nearly as
you can ?

Dr. Steinmetz. I believe that the first position I held was that of
delegate from the union to the Central Trades and Labor Council.
Subsequently I believe that I was president of it. I don't know whether
I went through the intermediate stages of vice president, but I believe
I did.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, can you fix the date when you were a delegate
from your union to the Central Trades and Labor Council ?

Dr. Steinmetz. Approximately, yes, 1935.

Mr. Tavenner. And did you occupy the position of delegate on
more than one occasion ?

Dr. Steinmetz. Yes, I believe that I did. My duties took me out
of the community to some extent, and I think that I was there as a
delegate to the Central Trades and Labor Council occasionally as
opportunity presented and the will of the members was indicated.
I don't remember how many times.

Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time did you occupy that
position ?

Dr. Steinmetz. Oh, from 1935 to, I would think to 1937. I would
not want to stand on that. That is to the best of my memory. It was
sometime during 1937, but I did not review any notes for this purpose,
and I could provide you the dates, perhaps, if I had an opportunity.

One comes here to face allegations with no warning with regard to
what the inquiry may be about.

Mr. Tavenner. This is an inquiry as to the facts, and if there is any
fact that is not clear within your recollection, of course every oppor-

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 721

tunity will be given you to refresh your recollection and to be more
accurate if you feel you should.

Dr. Steinmetz. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Now, you stated that, after having served as a dele-
gate from your union to the Central Trades and Labor Council,
you thought you had been vice president of local 320, if I understood
you correctly.

Dr. Steinmetz. I believe so.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, over what period of time were you vice presi-
dent of your local union ?

Dr. Steinmetz. I cannot tell you. I really don't remember.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you vice president at a period later than 1938?

Dr. Steinmetz. Will you try to make that specific so that it would
give me some clue, because really I don't remember. I don't think so.

Mr. Tavenner. According to your best recollection, you were not
vice president after 1938 ?

Dr. Steinmetz. No, sir, that is correct. I could have been some-
time during 1938. I don't remember.

Mr. Tavenner. All right.

Dr. Steinmetz. I thought you were sooner going to come to the
$64 question.

Mr. Ta\tenner. Well, would you like me to ask you that question
now?

Dr. Steinmetz. You have information along these lines, I presume.

Mr. Jackson. That will be developed, Dr. Steinmetz, in the course
of the questioning.

Mr. Tavenner. How long were you active in local 320 of the Ameri-
can Federation of Teachers?

Dr. Steinmetz. Will you define the word "active" for me, be-
cause

Mr. Tavenner. All right, let us begin this way: How long were
you a member of that local union, No. 320 ?

Dr. Steinmetz. It was organized not through my initiative, but
I became a member after about a dozen charter members had secured
that charter in 1935. I think that I was a dues-paying member until
it suspended, and to the best of my recollection, that would be in, oh,
well, late in 1938 or 1939. I am not sure.

Mr. Tavenner. The local union was disbanded in 1938 or 1939?

Dr. Steinmetz. I believe it did suspend in 1938 or 1939.

Mr. Tavenner. Was it succeeded at that time by any other local

Dr. Steinmetz. Not to my knowledge, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. Of the American Federation of Teachers?

Dr. Steinmetz. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of any branch of the American
Federation of Teachers after 1939?

Dr. Steinmetz. I don't believe so. This is a very stupid way of
ascertaining facts. Excuse me. If you had informed me in advance
what I might review for you, I could have brought in specific dates.
This sort of an

Mr. DoTLE. Just a minute, Professor.

Dr. Steinmetz. I am speaking accurately

Mr. Doyle. I, for one member of the committee, don't intend to have
you sit here and call our counsel stupid.

Dr. Steinmetz. I did not.

722 COMMXMIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Doyle. You said this is a stupid way to ask a question. He
is asking you intelligent questions. I don't think it is cricket for you
to sit there and say it is a stupid way of doing it.

Dr. Steinmetz. I don't think it is cricket for you to get the ques-
tions

Mr. Doyle. You said it was a stupid way to ascertain the facts. I
think our counsel is quite an able lawyer and quite experienced.

Dr. Steinmetz. I think he is very good.

Mr. Doyle. I think you might withdraw your allegation that he
was stupid.

Dr. Steinmetz. I didn't say that.

Mr. Jackson. Doctor, the counsel will proceed in his own way and
put his questions as he sees fit. It would be appreciated if you would
cooperate, at least to the extent of not engaging in personalities.

Dr. Steinmetz. I don't mean to. I apologize if I did, but I don't
think the record will show I did.

Mr. Jackson. Very well.

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Steinmetz, evidence introduced before the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities on the general interest and plan
of the Communist Party, regarding the teaching profession, has
shown that the literature of the Communist Party, or, rather, ac-
cording to the literature of the Communist Party, there have been
certain objectives in mind, general objectives in mind by the Com-
munist Party.

According to volume XXIII of Lenin it was shown that there should
be a broad teachers' trade union embracing vast numbers of teachers,
and the type of union was described by Lenin as a union "which will
resolutely take up its stand on the Soviet platform and the struggle
for socialism by means of a dictatorship of the proletariat."

William Z. Foster, from his book Toward Soviet America, printed
in 1932, stated that the obsolete methods of teaching would have to be
superseded by a scientific pedagogy.

And then we find a member of the educational commission of the
Young Communist League, Richard Frank, who went into the ques-
tion in more detail. According to Mr. Frank, there were three major
things which apparently stood out in the functioning of the Coimiiu-
nist Party in this field.

First, it was considered the task of the Communist Party to arouse
teachers to class consciousness. Second, to organize them in the
unions. And third, that the teachers themselves must take advantage
of their position without exposing themselves, to give their students,
to the best of their ability, a working-class education.

Now, those objectives of the Communist Party may have been
general throughout the United States. They may have been aug-
mented in various areas of the country. It is our purpose to deter-
mine as nearly as we can to what extent those purposes were being
sponsored in this particular community. And as the Teachers' Union
seems to be the focal point of the Communist Party intentions, and as
it has been shown by your testimony here, you had vast experience in
the American Federation of Teachers, I want to ask you first a general
question :

To what extent did you, sir, if at all, know that the Communist
Party was interested in the accomplishment of any of the objectives
that I mentioned ?

COR'EVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 723

Dr. Si^iNMETz. To what years do you ref erj Mr. Ta vernier ?

Mr. Tavenner. During any period in which you were a member
of the American Federation of Teachers.

Dr. Steinmetz. The matter you quoted was of what year?

Mr. Tavenner. The article of Mr. Eichard Frank, in the Commu-
nist of May 1937.

Dr. Steinmetz. You are quoting Lenin as of what year ?

Mr. Tavenner. And that was a year or two prior to the termination
of your union local 320.

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Tavenner, the question is very provocative,
very general, and I am not sure I know what you mean to ask me.
Will you repeat the question with regard to all that ?

Mr. Tavenner. Let me see if I can make the question more simple.
What knowledge, if any, did you have of Communist Party activities
within the American Federation of Teachers while you were a mem-
ber of the American Federation of Teachers ?

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. I would like to know to whom you refer and what
activities you refer to and why you ask me that question.

Have I been named before this committee?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I request that the witness be di-
rected to answer the question.

Mr. Jackson. Yes ; I believe the question is entirely in line with the
objectives of the committee and the purposes of this hearing.

Therefore, I direct the witness to answer the question, as to whether
or not in his knowledge there was any Communist activity in the
subject union.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Chairman, the question is too broad for me to
feel capable of answering it.

Mr. Ta^tenner. Let me see if I can still simplify it for the witness.

Do you know of your own knowledge of any effort made by the
Communist Party to influence the activities or the policies of the
American Federation of Teachers ?

Dr. Steinjietz. Is this a question of belief, reading, observation,
report, or direct experience?

Mr. Tavenner. Well, the question of knowledge, I take it, is the
result of a number of things.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. Will you please direct my attention to something
specific, Mr. Tavenner, please?

Mr. Doyle. May I, Mr. Chairman

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DoTLE. Assuming you don't know the content of Public Law
601, perhaps it is basic and will help you to understand what this
committee is trying to ascertain under Public Law 601 of the 79th
Congress.

The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by a subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of the extent, character,
and objects of the un-American propaganda activities in the United States, the
diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda
that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin or attacks the
principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and all
other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in anv necessary
remedial legislation.

724 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

I just assume from your broad scholarly training, you are perfectly
familiar with Public Law 601. If you hadn't been, I thought it was
only fair to call your attention to the fact that this committee is,
therefore, here expressly under a law of your Congress of the United
States. Every question which our counsel asks you and we ask you
we hope will be founded actually in line with this especial assignment
by the Congress of the United States.

I hope that helps you to get more of the background. I don't know
whether you figure this is the $64 question or not. You apparently
some time ago figured there will be one. I don't know.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Doyle. I don't know what you refer to as the $64 question. I
thought it was worth moie than that.

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Chairman, the only preparation that a witness
can undertake, who has not been approached in advance, is research
into his legal rights and his constitutional rights. I think that it has
made a much better citizen of me, this research, and I decline to answer
this question and all others pertaining to my beliefs in legal asso-
ciations.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Jackson. There is a pending question, is there not?

Mr. Ta^tsnner. Yes.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Jackson. I believe the question upon which the Chair directed
an answer was whether or not you had any personal knowledge of any
Communist activities in the teachers' federation.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Stienmetz. Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the question is not
sufficiently specific to give me or to require of me a specific answer.

Mr. Jackson. The question appears to me to be one which any man
of intelligence — certainly you are that. Doctor — would be able to
answer, whether or not you know of any Communist activities in
the teachers' federation. It is to me a very plain question

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Jackson. And one which could be very easily answered "yes"
or "no."

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. You think I can answer "Yes" or "No," without any
specific activities to answer them with regard to?

Mr. Jackson. My personal feeling would be yes. However, I am not
inclined to belabor the point. I directed an answer to it. That is the
situation at the moment.

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask, please, that the
counsel formulate a more specific question.

Mr. Tavenner. I fail to see how a more direct question could be
asked you than to ask you if you know of your own personal knowledge
of any Communist Party — —

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Tavenner. — effort to influence the policy or the activities of
the American Federation of Teachers.

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Counsel, this is 1953. It has been 13 or 14
years since I was active in the American Federation of Teachers. I
honestly would not feel competent, having been interested in many

COMjMUNIST activities in the LOS ANGELES AREA 725

things since, to be able to answer you a general question that would
distinguish observations from readings, from claims and so on.

Mr. Tavenner. Then your statement is that at this time you do not
know? Is that what the statement is you are intending to convey,
or the meaning you are intending to convey ?

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. Yes, that I do not know in general, until my ques-
tion is directed to a specific thing, I feel unable to answer.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time meet with a group of members
of the Communist Party relative to the affairs of the American Federa-
tion of Teachers ?

Dr. Steinmetz. Where and when ?

Mr. Tavenner. At any time.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Tavenner. And at any place.

Dr. Steinmetz. What persons, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. Any persons known to you to be members of the
Communist Party.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. In what year?

Mr. Tavenner. Any year.

Dr. Steinmetz. Alone or with others or under what circumstances?

Mr. Tavenner. Well, when I asked the question as to whether you
met with members of the Communist Party, it would naturally mean
there would have to be other persons present.

Dr. Steinmetz. Somebody is coaching me back here [indicating].

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. I find the question still too general, Mr. Tavenner.^

Mr. Jackson. The chair does not consider the question general in
any way. It considers it quite a proper inquiry and goes directly to
the heart of this investigative matter and so directs the witness to
answer.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. I decline to answer.

Mr. Jackson. Upon what ground does the witness decline?

(At this point Dr. Steinmentz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. Because it is too general. It seems to me, and it
seems so to my counsel.

Mr. Jackson. It does not seem so to the committee, and I believe
I can speak for Mr. Doyle. I am sure it does not seem so to counsel.

Mr. Doyle. I would say this : My impression is. Professor, that it
might be too general for a person who hadn't had elementary school
training, but you, with your vast scholarly training and degrees from
5 or 6 universities, I, as a member of the committee wish to say that
I concur with my chairman.

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Doyle, your comment is beneath my notice.

INIr. DoYT.E. I don't want to observe it, then. It is not intended
to be beneath your observance, I am sure.

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Steinmetz, were you a member of the Com-
munist Party during any period of time you were a member of the
American Federation of Teachers ?

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

726 coMivruNisT activities m the los axgeler area

Dr. Steinmetz. I believe, Mr. Counsel, that this is the first time
that I have heard or heard of this question being pi-opounded to a
witness who has not been named, without evidence accompanying it.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. So I ask you if I have been named.

Mr. Jackson. The simplest way for you to dispose of the question,
if you have not been a member of the Communist Party, is to so
state at this time. That will clear the atmosphere and will prove
false any information or allegations which have come to the attention
of this committee. It will solve the entire matter very quickly.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with jSIr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. I wouhl like to know what you mean by "being a
Communist." Is it with regard to dues, membership, and so forth?

Mr. Tavenner. Well, let me ask you first, were you a dues-paying
member of the Communist Party at any time during the period when
you Avere a member of the American Federation of Teachers ?

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Counsel, one comes liere to face allegations
without warni)ig. I want you to please be specific and tell me what
I am charged wath.

Mr. Jackson. Let us make it clear. You are not being charged
with anything. You are being questioned along pertinent lines in
an investigation of Communist Party infiltration in the field of
American education. These questions are all directed to that point
and to the dissemination of propaganda within education.

Dr. Steinmetz. If there is any critcism of my record with regard
to that, I should like very much to hear it and to be able to present
contrary evidence of my impartiality and my loyalty to this State
and to public education and its principles.

Mr. Jackson. If the witness will clenj' tliat he has been a member
of the Communist Party, it will go quite a long way toward assuring
his loyalty.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with jNIr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. The question assumes a conclusion with regard to
fact and requires, I believe, support by reference to dues and associa-
tions and such facts of evidence, and I ask for those, please, before
answering the question.

Mr. Jackson. The witness may ask for them, but the Chair is not
constrained to grant the request. The information upon which this
committee has proceeded in your case is considered to be adequate
and ample, and you are simply required to answer the questions that
are put to you or to say "Yes" or "No" or decline to answer. It is a
very simple matter as far as the Chair is concerned.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Taatonner. Mr. Chairman, may I put the question again?

Mr. Jackson. Very well.

Mr. Tavenner. My question to the witness is, was he ever a member
of the Communist Party during the period of time when he was a
member of the American Federation of Teachers.

(At this i3oint Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Counsel, I think my case is most unusual
before this committee since I have not been named

Mr. Jackson. To your knowledge.

Dr. Steinmetz. To my knowledge.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 727

Mr. Doyle. But you have been subpenaed to come here and testify
under oath. You are an American citizen and as a committee of your
Congress we are under express law to carry on these hearings. We
are asking you a question that is pertinent in view of the law under
which we operate, and I observe you came here well prepared. You
have 8 or 10 cards, closely typewritten, in front of you. The cards are
about 5 inches by 6 or 7 inches long, typewritten, and in some cases
on both sides. You have come well prepared, Professor, very mani-
festly, and if you want to help your United States Congress and this
legitimate investigation, why don't you cooperate?

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. I think, Mr. Chairman, that I have a right to ask
why I am singled out for this strange procedure.

Mr. Jackson. You are not singled out for what you term this
strange procedure or for any other procedure. You have been sub-
penaed to appear here and answer some questions which we consider
pertinent to the work of the Congress and of this committee, and I
might suggest that I am constrained very shortly to dismiss the witness
in light of his continued refusal to answer questions.

Dr. Steinmetz. Excuse me just a minute.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. I would like to ask if under this or the preceding
Congress any witness has ever been called who has not been named.
I think you owe me that. You know what you are doing or trying
to do to me. I think I have a right to ask that.

Mr. Doyle. We are not trying to do anything to you. Professor.

Dr. Steinmetz. You are trying to rape the Bill of Rights.

Mr. Doyle. We are not at all, and I wish to say very emphatically
and vigorously that you are no more concerned with the protecting
of the Bill of Eights than the rest of us. We are at least equally
interested.

Dr. Steinmetz. Yes, Mr. Doyle, those would be destroyed.

Mr. Doyle. No, no; but you are here under subpena and you are
under oath, and very personally and frankly may I say to you

Dr. Steinmetz. I don't care for your personal remarks. ,

Mr. Doyle. Then as a member of this committee I wish to say that
I think you are deliberately being evasive. You are not undertaking
to cooperate with this committee and give the United States Congress
the benefit of your wide experience in the field in which we are cur-
rently investigating.

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Doyle, I think that is an evasive approach on
the part of this committee to my status.

Mr. Doyle. We have asked as to your status, whether or not you
were ever a member of the Communist Party within a certain period.
That is very definite. Why don't you answer it ?

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Chairman, I think that I have very clearly,
more clearly than any other witness that I have heard or heard about
being called in here to testify. If anybody was ever put up here and
asked to do that, I am now asked to do that. I don't believe anybody
else has testified against me.

Mr. Doyle. Do you have any reason for declining to state whether
or not you are a member of the Communist Party ? Why would that

31747— 53— pt. 4^— ^-2

728 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

hurt you ? Why would it hurt you to tell the truth frankly and help
the United States Congress in looking into the field of education for
the extent to which subversive propaganda and activities went on
within the union when you were a member of it, or when you were
vice president of it?

Dr. Steinmetz. All right, Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer all
inquiries regarding my past and present political beliefs and associa-
tions for a very serious legal and profound ethical reason. And in
giving them I assure you that I will be remarkably brief for a college
professor.

Mr. Jackson. We would appreciate it.

Dr. Steinmetz. Both you and I are tax consumers, and I am always
conscious of that.

Mr. Jackson. We can save that.

Dr. Steinmetz. Thank you. My first reason, Mr. Counsel, is that
this procedure constitutes an invasion of the traditional function
of the Government without recognition of the separation of the
powers specified in the Constitution.

You inadequately satisfy legal procedure for trial and abort due
process while threatening legal and economic sanctions.

In United States v. Lovett^ 1946, the United States Supreme Court
observed :

When our Constitution and Bill of Rights were written, our ancestors had
ample reason to know that legislative trials and punishments were too dangerous
to liberty to exist in the nation of freemen they envisaged.

And my ancestors began leaving Europe in 1690 to get away from
this sort of thing.

A committee member referred to the chairman in terms of "Your
Honor," and in many ways you simulate the judicial procedure. You
treat witnesses differently as if what you seem intent upon finding
or proving had already been found or proved.

As I said, you have rehearsed with some and not with others, as if
you were prosecuting attorneys. I refer you to article III of the
Constitution and to the fifth amendment, but not to that part which
pertains to self-incrimination.

My second reason for declining to answer you is that I have observed
your questions always lead around to the deceptively simple one.
This is deceptively simple because it faces an unfriendly witness, or
one who is made unfriendly or notified that he will be treated
unfriendly by your approach in advance, or nonapproach in advance.
This faces him with impossible alternatives.

I should like to refer you to the ruling of Judge John D. Martin,
United States Circuit Judge in Memphis, Tenn. This was just last
year. I can give you the reference. It is AIUPPA v. United States
(6 C. C. A. 1952) , and I quote :

We are unable to give judicial sanction, in the teeth of the fifth amendment,
to the employment by a coiuraittee of the United States Senate of methods of
examination of witnesses constituting a triple threat: Answer truly and you
have given evidence leading to your conviction for violation of Federal laws;
answer falsely and you will he found guilty of criminal contempt and punished
by fine and imprisonment. In our humble judgment, to place a person not even
on trial for a specified crime in such a predicament is not only not a manifes-
tation of fair play, but it is in direct violation of the fifth amendment to our
national Constitution.

COIVTMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 729

I would like to add one thing; that to answer either yes or no is to
acknowledge the authority of the cuirent Congressman over my legal
associations, an authority which I honestly believe right now, regard-
less of all politics, constitutionally is invalid, currently unnecessary,
historically most dangerous, and ethically very bad.

Now, I am aware of political and bureaucratic opposition to my
point of view, and a division even among my friends, but I have been
and am an impartial and conscientious teacher. I am opposed to
force and violence and illegalities. I have been and am unselfishly
motivated in my affiliations and devoted to peace and democracy and
social justice in public education, and I can do no less than try to
maintain my honest views.

One of them has been that my American citizenship guarantees me
great freedom in the search for knowledge.

Another has been that if all men think alike, no man thinks very
much. Certainly, there is no other witness, I think, has pointed out
during the current hearings, to my knowledge, that the Bill of Rights
entered the United States Constitution in 1 piece of 10 interlocking
and mutually entailed parts.

My comments on that grand and quaint old document will be brief.
Amendments 1, 4, 5, 6, 9, and 10 may be cited in support of my
refusal to cooperate in your endeavors.

Mr. Tavenner. You say it has been cited. Do you cite it?

Dr. Steinmetz. I do cite them. I think you have heard that quite
frequently lately.

My attitude, Mr. Chairman, toward you and toward my Govern-
ment is quite dependent upon my security and freedom under the Bill
of Rights. Without those rights, un-American means little more
than un-Alaskan or unincorporated. You know that the term un-
American is legally imprecise, somewhat politically seasonal, and has
been used rather freely in self-defense and counterattack by Harry
Daugherty, Al Capone, and your own alumnus, J. Parnell Thomas.

I really believe that the frank thing for this committee to do, with-
out congressional immunities, is to undertake to repeal the Bill of
Rights.

Now, the sad fact is that only amendment 5 seems capable of secur-
ing one from either a contempt or perjury citation, and even if one
does escape Mr. Tavenner's clever guarcl against one's proper use of it,
I have observed that very frequently there are bullying innuendoes
and social sanctions often follow. I am very aw^are of that.

It is a commentary upon our political economy that the first amend-
ment, historical key to all the rest, the very foundation within our
representative form of government, has been so vitiated by legislative
addenda and judicial interpretations that it no longer protects the
individual, whereas the fifth, strengthened bj^ continuous use in crim-
inal cases, is the only ground before a legislative committee upon
which an individual maj^ safely declare himself in favor of all
amendments.

Rights unused are soon in jeopardy. One stands on the fifth or
else he kneels without the first, without which the term "Americanism"
becomes the toy of fools. The fifth amendment was designed to pre-
vent the rise of a police state, which is what I fear that this committee
is furthering.

730 COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Now, out in the hall, to a friend, I would be willing to discuss my
political views and occasional activities, but here under oath and
coercive public demand, I cannot compromise my self-respect by
recognizing your authority — by recognizing the authority for such
an inquisition.

I believe that both civil rights and property rights, too, are in
jeopardy over this issue. Feeling this way, as I believe one Federal
court put it, it becomes my duty to stand on the fifth amendment for
to acquiesce would surrender civil liberties and make me an accom-
plice in the public rape of the Bill of Rights.

I would like to claim a fourth basis of security from you which is
very brief. It is article XII of the Universal Declaration of Human
Eights, approved by the United Nations General Assembly on
December 12, 1948. It reads :

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family,
home, and correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honor and reputation. Every-
one has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Now, I submit that you have arbitrarily interfered with not only
my privacy but my economic security and professional and personal
reputation behind certain immunities.

I am aware that this morning's papers notify us that this adminis-
tration will not sign that document, and I think it is most significant
to the American public that it is now being reneged.

Finally, gentlemen, I decline to cooperate in aiding you to dig an
ideological chasm between my country and the rest of the world which
is far more menacing than any iron curtain. I am an educator and
psychologist, and I have always tried to be a sincere one.

The confessions which you extract and the hate crusade, built on
taboos and stereotypes which you cultivate, are menacing to education
and mental hygiene, to science, art, democracy, and peace, to every-
thing I live for.

The black silence of fear of unorthodoxy, of ideas and free discus-
sion and organization is settling down like a gas attack upon our great
public schools and universities, thwarting original work, inhibiting
intellectual honesty, depressing faith and hope.

For every teacher smnmoned here and intimidated, a thousand are
silenced, and I do not think that American youth wants or deserves
faculties of "Casper Milquetoasts." My pedagogical ethics have been
unimpeachable, as can be proved by any fair sampling of the 5,000
students, or 500 colleagues that I have had during the last 23 years
where I am now.

I have not earned my living in private, smoke-filled rooms, but in
the sunny California classrooms, and I defy any honest investigation
of my record therein.

A great American Secretary of State and of War, and a hero in
my family, the late Henry L. Stimson, pointedly remarked that, "The
chief lesson I have learned in a long life is that the only way you can
make a man trustworthy is to trust him ; and the surest way to make
him untrustworthy is to distrust him and to show your distrust."

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, this is certainly not responsive to
any question I asked. This has been going on for at least 10 or 15
minutes.

Mr. Jackson. My understanding was the witness declined to answer
the question before he started on his statement ; is that correct ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 731

Dr. Steinmetz. That is correct.

Mr. Jackson. He made his declination and now he is giving his
reasons for the declination. He will be permitted to continue.

Dr. Steinmetz. I think this is very highlj^ relevant, this statement
of Mr. Stimson.

Mr. Jackson. You have already read it. You may proceed.

Dr. Steinmetz. That statement appeared in a memorandum for
the President, dated September 11, 1945, on proposed action for con-
trol of atomic bombs.

As a psychologist, I commend the observation for both family and
public life, as well as international relations, and so I must decline to
cooperate in sowing mistrust.

Hitler built his criminal crusade upon division, upon scapegoating
minorities, upon fear and hate and persecution. As I believe that
Thomas Mann pointed out to this committee when he also claimed the
honor of appearing as a hostile witness, political inquisition leads to
legalized insecurity, and what follows is fascism and then war. Each
step is rationalized by emergency that is manufactured by propa-
ganda.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Mr. Chairman, it is quite apparent that the witness
is reading from a prepared statement.

Dr. Steinmetz. I have one last line which I think is relevant.

Mr. Jackson. I think the record should show that the witness is
reading from a prepared statement.

Mr. DoYLE. It has already taken him 14 minutes to read it.

Mr. Jackson. However, if the witness w^ill hurry along, it would
be appreciated.

Dr. Steinmetz. I am a member of such subversive organizations
as the American Association of University Professors, the Society of
Sigma Xi, the Society for Social Responsibility in Science, the Ameri-
can Psychological Association, and the American Civil Liberties
Union.

As such, I want nothing to do with your committee purposes, your
procedures or your results, but I am certainly willing at any time to
meet any one of 3^011 at any place for a free and public debate, on the
issues between us, and I think that would be the far more American
way of settling the questions than this type of approach.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Mr. Chairman, it is quite apparent the witness was
endeavoring to be facetious when he referred to his membership in
certain "subversive organizations," such as honor societies and so on.
I think that should be struck from the record.

Mr. Jackson. It may remain in the record.

Dr. Steinmetz. Well, I believe 2 or 3 of those that I named think
this committee's ultimate effect will be subversive.

Mr. Jackson. I might state that as far as those people are concerned
and as far as your personal opinion of this committee is concerned, it
does not make one whit of difference. We have listened to perorations
by some who have come before us and read what appear to be edi-
torials from the Daily Worker.

Dr. Steinmetz. That is only your definition.

Mr. Jackson. Let the record show that the witness, following his
declination to answer the question, read an 8- or 10-page prepared state-
ment before the committee and that his freedom of speech was not

732 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

abridged in any way ; that he was permitted to continue, although I
must say that some of it approached the nauseous.

Do you have any further questions of this witness ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Dr. Steinmetz, did you attend as a delegate
anv State conventif)iis of the American Federation of Teachers?

Dr. Steinmetz. 1 probably did, Mr. Tavenner, if you would tell me
the dates I can tell you more accurately.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall having met a person by the name of
Kinney, sometimes referred to as Jane Howe, at any of the conven-
tions on the State level ?

Dr. Steinmetz. I do not. I heard that name here the other day.
I really do not recall meeting such a person. I may have. Where
was it? I don't remember.

Mr. Tavenner. JNIiss Kinney, in the course of lier testimony be-
fore this committee on December 22, 1952, in a sworn statement by her,
had this to say. She liad testified that she had been a member of
the Communist Party for a period of time and had withdrawn from
the Communist Party, but that she, too, had been a member of the
American Federation of Teachers.

She described a fraction meeting of the Communist Party in Palo
Alto previous to a State convention of the American Federation of
Teachers. She was asked the question whether she remembered the
individuals attending this meeting.

Her reply was that there were two teachers from Oakland whose
names "I don't remember."

Dr. Holland Roberts, from Palo Alto. I think Harry Steinmetz from San
Diego.

Did you ever meet Harry Steinmetz on any other occasions?

And the answei- of Miss Kinney was —

I think he came to our house one time. I know he came to our house one
time.

Question. You are certain he was a member of the Communist Party, Mrs.
Kinney?

Answer. Yes, he was. He was at that meeting and presumably he was or
he wouldn't have been at the meeting.

Now, do you recall the meeting? Do you recall having met Mrs.
Kinney after I have refreshed your recollection by that testimony?

Dr. Steinmetz. No, Mr. Tavenner, I don't.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend a fraction meeting of the Com-
munist Party at Palo Alto prior to the State convention of the Ameri-
can Federation of Teachers ?

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. Since it is described as a Communist Party meet-
ing, and I have already taken my stand on the Bill of Rights, I decline
to answer that question for reasons of possible self-incrimination,
according to the standards of incrimination which you maintain and
are trying to make a part of the American way of life.

Mr. Jackson. That statement will be stricken from the record.
This committee is not setting up any standards of self-incrimination.
They are set up in the Constitution of the United States and provide
against self-incrimination in a criminal matter.

You have elected to stand on the fifth amendment, which is your
personal right. We didn't set it up. It was set up by men much

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 733

wiser than we and much wiser than you, for the protection of the
innocent.

Dr. Steinmets. I would have to see Miss Kinney and examine the
transcript to be able to answer this question. And with regard to
the chairman's statement, I thought you were aiming to formulate
legislation.

Mr. Jackson. That is what we are doing. The Internal Security
Act of 1950 was recommended in part by this committee. We have
a very definite legislative goal and we shall endeavor to fulfill the goal,
but as far as setting up standards of self-incrimination is concerned, I
assure you, sir, Ave are not doing that. If you seek the protection of
the fifth amendment, that is j^our privilege.

Dr. Steinmetz. I do not with regard to the question before us be-
cause I don't remember anything about what you are asking.

Mr. Tavenner. You do not remember whether you ever attended
such a meeting?

Dr. Steinmetz. No, I do not.

INIr. Tavenner. You do not remember whether you ever attended
such a meeting ?

Dr. Steinmetz. Will you repeat the question ?

Mr. Tavenner. The question was do you recall — Do you recall the
question which you refused to answer?

Dr. Steinmetz. I forgot wliether it was a question about a Commu-
nist Party meeting or a union meeting.

Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you the question over so there will be no
misunderstanding. My question was whether or not you attended a
fraction meeting of the Communist Party in Palo Alto prior to the
holding of a State convention of the American Federation of Teachers.

Dr. Steinmetz. That is political and I decline to answer on the
ground of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time since 1939 ?

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Dr. Steinmetz. I decline to answer on the grounds previously
stated.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. Doyle. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ? That
question has not been asked you. Professor.

Dr. Steinmetz. I will have to refresh myself.

Mr. Doyle. That is all right.

Dr. Steinmetz. (No response.)

Mr. Doyle. I know. Doctor, you decline to answer anything in con-
nection with your Communist Party affiliations, if you had one. I
realize that. But on the other hand, I am wondering which was the
$64 question that you mentioned a half-hour ago. Has that question
been asked you, or is that the question I am asking now?

Dr. Steinmetz. (No response.)

Mr. Doyle. Whatever the $64 question was, you apparently came
prepared to answer it and I want to give you an opportunity to
answer it now.

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Doyle, I decline to answer prosecutory ques-
tions for grounds previously stated.

734 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. DoYLK, Well now, may I assure you we are not eng-aginjr in
prosecutory questions. Certainly, we ai-e here nndei- Public Law 601,
which I read a part of to yon.

Dr. Steinmetz. Yes, Mr. Doyle, I have heard this.

Mr. Doyle. I realize yon have been in these hearings several days
preparing for your own testimony, which is quite legitimate, and yet
])reparatory, so you wouldn't be caught inia wares, as you say.

But I wonder if you are familiar Avith the declaration of your
United States Congress in Public Law 831. Do you recall that,
Doctor?

Dr. Steinmetz. Yes, I recall that.

Mr. DoYLE. I thought you would. Now, I just w^ant to remind you
this is one of the public laws under which this connnittee is here mak-
ing an investigation of subversive people or subversive activities.

I read section 2 from the 81st Congress, for the necessity for
legislation :

As a result of evidence adduced before various coinniirtces of the Senate and
House of Representatives, the Congress hereby tinds that :

There exists a world Communist movement which, in its origins, its develop-
ment, and its present practice, is a world-wide revolutionary movement whose
purpose it is by treachery, deceit, infiltration into other gi'oups (governmental
and otherwise), espionage, sabotage, terrorism, and any other means deemed
necessary, to establish a Communist totalitarian dictatorship in the countries
throughout the world through the medium of a world-wide Communist organi-
zation.

Now, I understood you to say that you didn't intend to cooperate
in any way with this committee. Didn't I so understand you to
state ?

Dr. Steinmetz. Yes, because as a child I learned to identify myself
with every downtrodden minority

Mr. DoYLE. Well

Dr. Steinmetz. And every group I feel

Mr. Doyle (continuing). In spite

Dr. Steinmetz. Being persecuted needlessly.

Mr. Doyle (continuing). Of the fact, Doctor, your Congress of
the United States made this declaration in the subversive

Dr. Steinmetz. It is a declaration unproved law, by court.

Mr. Doyle. What is it ?

Dr. Steinmetz. Has it been judicially considered?

Mr. Jackson. There are people

Mr. Doyle. Of course, every law that Congress passes is not tested
by the Supreme Court, but this is the Internal Security Act with which
you are perfectly familiar, a paragraph thereof, which I am reading.
But, anyhow, as I understand, your statement still is that you refuse
to cooperate with this committee of your Congress, even in spite of this
declaration of policy by the United States Congress, which is declared
as I have read ?

Dr. Steinmetz. All right, Mr. Doyle. Is the Communist Party a
legal party ?

Mr. Doyle. Now, let me read for your benefit, Doctor

Dr. Steinmetz. I don't need it, really.

Mr. D0Y1.E. I know.

Mr. Jackson. You have made your record. I think maybe it is
no more than fair to let Mr. Doyle make his points.

COMiVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 735

Mr. Doyle. It is quite evident you don't feel you need any more
information, I realize that.

Dr. Steinmetz. I don't feel that way.

Mr. Doyle. Evidently you do.

Dr. Steinmetz, In some sources.

Mr. Doyle. Let me read you a statement by J. Edgar Hoover of
February 4, quoted from Washington :

FBI Director, J. Edgar Hoover, has told Congress the Communists are infil-
trating "every field of American activity" and "enemy espionage rings" are work-
ing more intensely than before in the United States history. * * *

Concerning Red infiltration Hoover told the Congressmen that "the Commu-
nists enter into every field of activity — civil rights, youth groups, veterans'
gi-oups, press and radio and television, motion pictures, political organizations
of every kind whereby they can proselyte and spread their beliefs and doctrines."

And then I want to read you, Doctor, because you are in the impor-
tant field of education, what Mr. Hoover said on April 4.

Dr. SrEiN3iETZ. In regard to which you have no criticism of me.
Mr. Doyle. No, I think it is a great privilege to be in education.
Dr. Steinmetz, So do I, sir.
Mr. Doyle. And that for a life's work. I quote :

Party members, he said, were "resorting to every means possible to prevent
detention."

Concerning Communists in education. Hoover said the Reds "recognize the
obvious fact that he who controls the youth controls the future."

And further —

Rejecting arguments that Communists are not dangerous unless they try to
influence their students. Hoover said an avowed Communist "can have no toler-
ance or impartiality, since he holds that his system of government and only his
will endure."

And I still quote Mr. Hoover :

He lacks honesty and integrity because communism teaches that deceit and
conspiratorial tactics are permissible and moral.

Hoover said, adding :

There is no room in America for Communists or Communist sympathies in oTir
educational system. Let us not permit them to poison the receptive minds of
youths with their deceptions.

Dr. Steinmetz. Are you claiming that as relevant to me?
Mr. Doyle (continuing reading) :

If we entrust our youth, the price paid later in broken and misguided adults
will have been too great. Every Communist uprooted is one more assurance
that it will not degenerate into a medium of propaganda for Marxism.

I read that because Mr. Hoover stated that in a report to Congress
on April 4, 1953, as reported in the United Press.

Dr. Steinmetz. Mr. Doyle, since you mentioned the Smith Act,
may I point out that, under the Smith Act, any Communist who came
here and admitted it would have his legal right to be a Communist
emptied of all security, because he would have over his head a charge
of conspiracy or advocating or teaching violence. Hence, by that
mixed status you assure yourself of a dramatically — some witnesses
who will be dramatically unfriendly. But you do not prove anything.

Mr. Jackson. Doctor, do you agree with Mr. Hoover's premises
with respect to Communists in education?

Dr. Steinmetz. Do you disagree with Senator Taft?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, I do.

736 COMJVIUXIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Doyle. So do I.

(At this point Dr. Steinmetz conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Doyle. Do you, Doctor, disagree — —

Dr. Steinmetz. Do you ask me what I believe? I have told you
I would be glad to meet you on the public platform at any time and
any place.

Mr. Jackson. You just asked me what I believe.

Mr. Doyle. You just asked me what I believe.

Mr. Jackson. Freedom of speech and freedom of thought go on a
two-way street but so many of you seem to forget it.

Dr. Steinmetz. I do not agree with Mr. Hoover, Mr. Chairman,
I do not agree with Mr. Hoover.

Mr. Jackson. Very well. Do you have any further questions?

Mr. Tavenner. No.

Mr. Jackson. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. Doyle. No.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. No.

Mr. Jackson. The witness will be excused, and we will recess for
5 minutes.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken from 11 : 05 to 11 : 12 a. m.)

(At the end of the recess, at 11 : 12 a. m., the hearing resumed with
Kepresentatives Donald L. Jackson and Clyde Doyle present.)

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order.

Who will be your next witness, Mr. Counsel ?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Harry Shepro.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Shepro, do you solemnly swear that in the testi-
mony you are about to give, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Shepro. I do.

TESTIMONY OF HARKY SHEPRO, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Shepro. My name is Harry Shepro, S-h-e-p-r-o.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Shepro. Yes, I am.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the
record ?

Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.

Mr. EsTERMAN. William B. Esterman.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien and where were you born, please, sir?

Mr. Shepro. I was born in 1894 in the Ukraine.

Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to this country?

Mr. Shepro. I came in 1903, I believe. I was about 9

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ?

Mr. Shepro. I am a citizen by derivation.

Mr. Tavenner. What was your father's name?

Mr. Shepro. Abraham Shepro ; same name.^

Mr. Tavenner. You became an American citizen-——

Mr. Shepro. By virtue of my father's American citizenship.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 737

Mr. Tavenner. By virtue of your father becoming an American
citizen ?

Mr. Shepro. That is right.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?

Mr. Shepro. I am a teacher in the Los Angeles city schools — high
schools.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has consisted of?

Mr. Shepro. Well, I am a graduate of Amherst College in Massa-
chusetts. I have taken several years' work in UCLA, USC, and I hold
a law degree from Metropolitan College of Law in Los Angeles.

Mr. Taatenner. When did you complete your educational training ;
3^our formal educational training ?

Mr. Shepro. Well, in 1919, and I received my bachelor's degree.
Sometime in the twenties, in the late twenties my educational work — in
the early twenties and late twenties I came out to California. I did
my law work between 1929 and 1934 or 1935— 1934, I think it was.

Mr. Ta^t:nner. Where did you practice law ?

Mr. Shepro. I have never practiced law. I thought that would be
an addition to my qualifications as a teacher.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you become licensed to practice law ?

Mr. Shepro. No; I didn't.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you taught in the Los Angeles city
schools ?

Mr. Shepro. I taught pretty close to 31 years, since 1922.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you during any part of that time become a
member of the American Federation of Teachers ?

Mr. Shepro. Yes ; I did.

Mr. Ta-s^nner. Wlien did you join that organization?

Mr. Shepro. Well, I was a charter member and I don't recall exactly
when we were chartered, but I think it was probably about 1935.

Mr. Ta\t;nner. What local were you a charter member of ?

Mr. Shepro. Local 430.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how many local chapters there were
or groups there were of the American Federation of Teachers in the
State of California ?

Mr. Shepro. I really don't remember. I don't know. I think I did
know, but it is so many years ago I just can't remember.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any official position in local 430 at any
time?

Mr. Shepro. Yes ; I was its first president.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you president for more than one term ?

Mr. Shepro. I think I was president about 1 year. I think I was
president about 1 year.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any other position in the local, local
430, after that time ?

Mr. Shepro. ^Vliy, I don't lecall. I think — yes, I was a delegate to
the Central Labor Council.

Mr. Tavenner. When was that ?

Mr. Shepro. Well

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

Mr. Shepro. Maybe you have some dates there you can refresh my
memory with. I just don't remember exactly.

738 COMlVrUNTST activities in the LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Tavenxer. Just answer the question, please, to the best of your
recollection. I realize you cannot be precisely accurate.

Mr. Shei'RO. I just don't remember exactly. I would say it was
somewliere between maybe 1937, perhaps, and 1940, I think so.

Mr. Tavenxer. Were you a delegate on more than one occasion ?

Mr. SiiEPRo. Well, I was a continuing delegate.

Mr. Tavexner. A continuing delegate over what length of time, do
you thinks

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

Mr. SiiEPRO. Well, will you please repeat your last question, Mr.
Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavexner. Over what period of time were you a delegate to
the council that you mentioned?

Mr. Shepro. I really can't give you the date. It seems to me that
those details could be gotten. I mean — I can't remember how long.

Mr. Tavexxer. You said you were a continuing delegate. Can you
give us some idea as to how many years you were a continuing
delegate ?

]VIr. Shepro. Those are details I really can't give you ; I don't know.
I don't remember. It may liave been 2 or 3 or 4 years, I can't re-
member.

Mr. Tavexxer. Very well. Were you an offi<?ial at any time on the
State level ?

Mr. Shepro. You mean

Mr. Tavtsxxer. Of the American Federation of Teachers.

Mr. Shepro. Of the American Federation of Teachers?

Mr. Ta\'exxer. Yes.

Mr. Shepro. I hardly think so.

Mr. Ta\'exxer. Our information is in 1943 you were legislative
director of the union. Was that on the local, State, or national level,
Mr. Shepro?

Mr. Shepro. I was, I think I was a legislative director of the union,
but I don't remember whether it was in 1943 — if you say that is what
it was, maybe I was. I was legislative director at one time of the
union.

Mr. Tavexxer. Was that on a national level ?

Mr. Shepro. No; that w^as on the local level.

Mr. Tavexxer. Local level?

Mr. Shepro. Yes. I never had a position on the national level.

Mr. Tavenxer, How long were you a member of local 430 of the
American Federation of Teachers?

Mr. Shepro. Well, I was a member of it from its inception, and I am
still a member. Of course, it is not local 430 right now.

Mr. Tavexxer, When did it cease to be local 430?

Mr. Shepro. I don't know whether I can give you that exact date.
I have been an inactive member for many years due to illness. I
just don't remember exactly when.

Mr. Tavenxer. Well, do you know whether local 430 is still affili-
ated with the American Federation of Teachers ?

Mr. Shepro. No ; it is not.

Mr. Tavexxer. It is not ?

Mr. Shepro. No.

Mr. Tavexxer. Do you know when it ceased to be ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 739

Mr. Shepro. I am tryino; — that was the question you asked me
before, and I don't recalL I don't know the date, the exact date.

Mr. Tavenner. Was it just several years ago?

Mr. Shepro. It probably was maybe 3 or 4 or 5 years ago. I just
don't recall exactly.

Mr. Jackson. A question at this point, Mr, Shepro: What is the
function or what are the duties of the legislative director ?

Mr. Shepro. Well, we, being a teachers' group, are naturally inter-
ested in legislation. It was up to me to receive all the bills from the
legislature and to — with my committee to cull the bills, pick out
tliose that had to do with education, to read those bills, to see whether
these bills were of any interest to the teaching group in Los Angeles
or in California. And to take whatever steps we could in order to
further the bills or to stop their passage by contacting legislators.

Mr. Jackson. You and your committee made appropriate recom-
mendations, then, after study of legislation, as to what action the en-
tire body should take with respect to any given piece of legislation?

Mr. Shepro. That is right, just the same as any other group does,
I presume.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you take part in any way in the negotiations
which led up to the withdrawal of local 430 from the American Fed-
eration of Teachers ?

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Tavenner. Or its expulsion, whichever may be correct ?

Mr. Shepro. Mr. Tavenner, I don't know just exactly what you
mean by negotiations.

Mr. Tavenner. By what?

Mr. Shepro. What you mean by negotiations?

Mr. Tavenner. Well, as we understand it, local 4B0 ceased to be a
part or affiliated with the American Federation of Teachers several
years ago.

Now I am asking you what part you played, if any, in the severance
of local 430 from the American Federation of Teachers.

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Shepro. Mr. Tavenner, I didn't participate too much in these
things at that particular time, because that was several years ago and
I wasn't very active — at that time wasn't active at all in the local.
I had been sick and had had ill health continuously more or less.

I do remember this, that a certain board member, J. Paul Elliott,
who has since been removed from office, got in contact with — I don't
know whether that was collusion or what it was — with the president of
the American Federation of Teachers on the national level.

It was due to that particular getting together, that contact between
those two people and others perhaps, that the president came out and
there was a hearing held, or something of that sort — yes, there was a
hearing held, and as a result of that, local 430 was driven out of the
AFT.

I do know this, that this president, whose name I don't remember
now, of the American Federation of Teachers, was — that they held, he
and his secretary held a meeting with the board of education at that
time and prior to the meeting or the investigation that they made here.

740 COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall what the basis for the kicking out of
local 430 was, as you refered to it?

Mr, SiiEPRO. I don't recall the exact basis. I think that

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esternian.)
Mr. Shepro. I never saw a copy of the report. I think I remember
seeing something in the newspaper. I don't remember exactly. But I

didn't receive

Mr. Tavenner. What is your best recollection of the reason for the
severance?

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman.)
Mr. Tavenner. As a member of local 4o0 you certainly were aware
of that.

Mr. Shepro. You see, I was aware of the fact, but I don't know the
exact details. I don't — I haven't been to very many meetings, Mr.
Tavenner, due to the fact I don't go — 1 don't take any active part in
any organizations, and I cannot give you the exact details.

Mr. Tan^enner. Mr. Shepro, the committee has received information
that there was a group of members of the American Federation of
Teachers who composed a cell or group of the Communist Party.
This was a group of Communist Party members within the American
Federation of Teachers.

We have heard testimony as to wliat some of the activities of this
group was. We have had that testimony before this committee. That
testimony indicated that you were a member of that group of the
Communist Party. Now", that testimony consisted of the testimony of
the following persons :

Professor LeRoy Herndon. He testified, in naming the persons
who were in the group with him in this manner: There was a high
school, a junior high school in North Hollywood. I do not know the
name of the high school. I believe the teacher's name was Harry
Shepro.

Professor Richard Lewis also testified, after having described the
activities of this group to some extent, he advised the committee that
he jotted down the names of the persons that he had heard Mr. LeRoy
Herndon testify to and that he could identify from his own knowledge,
that the following persons were members of that group, and among
them he named Harry and Ann Shepro.

The committee also heard the testimony or received the sworn state-
ment of Anne Kinney on December 22, 1952, in which she described
herself as being a member of this same group of the Communist Party,
which was operating within the American Federation of Teachers,
Local 430, and in the course of identifying those associated with her
she named Harry Shepro, and followed it by the statement, "'I think
you should assume tliat unless I mention anything to the contrary,
all of them were in the city schools."

Now, if that testimony is correct, you are in position to be of as-
sistance to this committee by giving it additional information and
adding to the s\nn total of the knowledge of the committee.

Now, regarding, the i)urp()8es of the Conuuunist Party in organizing
the teaching profession, or organizing Connnunists within the teach-
ing profession, the extent of its affiliation, and the manner in which it
sought to accomplish its purposes, my first question is : Were you a
member of this group as testified to by these three individuals?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 741

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Tavenner. And by "group," I am referring, of course, to a
cell of the Communist Party composed of members of the American
Federation of Teachers.

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Shepko. Mr. Tavenner, may I request that my attorney be
permitted to cross-examine the witnesses that testified against me
here?

Mr. Jackson. The rules of the standing committees of the House of
Representatives and the rules of this committee do not permit in an
investigation cross-examination of those who have given testimony.

Mr. Shepro. Why not, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. Jackson. I have not inquired into the purposes of the people
who wrote the rules of the House of Representatives or of the com-
mittee. I assume if you write to them individually they will be very
glad to tell you. However, the request is denied.

Mr. Shepro. May I request that my attorney be permitted to make
a statement?

Mr. Jackson. No, your attorneys are well aware of the fact that
prepared statements by counsel or oral argument by counsel or any
motion other than written motions by counsel are not permitted.

Mr. Shepro. Is it all right for me to make a statement ?

Mr. Jackson. I gather that you have come prepared to make a
statement.

Mr. Shepro. Yes, I am prepared to make a statement.

Mr. Jackson. And it is not the desire of the committee to restrict
in any way your freedom of speech. However, there is a question
pending which should be answered before you undertake to make any
further additional statement.

Mr. Shepro. Mr. Tavenner, what period of time are you referring
to in your question ?

Mr. Ta^t3nner. At any time during the period when you were a
member of local 430 of the American Federation of Teachers?

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Shepro. Mr. Tavemier, in answer to this question, and all other
questions like it, I shall neither answer "Yes" or "No." My answer
has seven reasons, and I will be very brief.

Mr. Jackson. The Chair will instruct the witness to answer the
pending question or decline to answer the pending question, at which
time the committee will be very happy to hear the reasons which the
witness cares to set forth.

Mr. Shepro. May I continue with my answer?

Mr. Jackson. You may give an answer, which you have not done
up to the present time.

Mr. Shepro. I will give you an answer.

Mr. Jackson. You will give an answer before you read any state-
ment.

Mr. Shepro. I am not going to read a statement. I am just going
to give some reasons.

Mr. Jackson. Answer the question first or decline to answer it,
whereupon you may give your reasons for your declination or your

742 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

answer. The committee is not going to be belabored by a long pre-
pared statement at this point and the Chair directs that the pending
question be answered.

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Est«rman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Shepro. Well, first, 1 will not join in any arrangement

Mr. Jackson. Xor will you read any statement until the question
has been answered.

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Shepro. This is my answer. I am giving you my answer.

Mr. Jackson. No. Your answer can be much more concise than
that. Either say "Yes" or "No" or refuse to answer the question,
whereupon we will be very happy to listen to any reasons that you may
wish to present. However, the Chair must insist upon an answer to
the pending question which lends itself to an answer very easily of
"yes" or "no" or a declination to answer.

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Shepro. My answer is that I claim my rights under the Bill
of Rights and more particularly the following

Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer the question ?

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Shepro. Will you let me finish, please?

Mr. Jackson. I will be very happy to let you proceed as soon as we
have an answer to the question.

Mr. Shepro. Well, I am trying to proceed, and I have given

Mr. Jackson. What is your answer?

Mr. Shepro. I am claiming

Mr. Jackson. What is your answer? Do you decline to answer?

Mr. Shepro. I claim my rights under the Bill of Rights.

Mr. Jackson. Your right to what ?

Mr. Shepro. INIy right to answer the question in the way I think
I should answer it.

Mr. Jackson. I am very sorry, but the committee is not going to
permit you to proceed with a long harangue which you have come
prepared to give and which you have before you on the table, until
such time as you have answered the pending question or declined to
answer it.

Now, I hope I make that clear, because I intend to, for the purpose
of the record, direct you to answer the pending question or to decline
to answer, following which you will be given every opportunity to
explain your reasons.

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Shepro. Mr. Jackson, my lawyers tell me that I have a right
to answer the question in my own way and that I will have to decline
necessarily, and I am not going to offer a harangue, as you say I am.

Mr. Jackson. It is quite obvious, at least to the Chair, that this is
an effort to delay and obstruct the course of these proceedings.

Mr. Counsel, is the witness here in answer to a subpena ?
Mr. Tavenner. He is.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 743

Mr. Jacksox. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused at this time?

Mr. Tavenner. If he refuses or fails to answer the question, I see
no reason.

Mr. Shepro. I am ready to answer the question.

Mr, Jackson. Please answer it. For the last time, will you give
a direct answer to the pending question?

Mr. Shepro. Yes, I am going to answer it in my way. I decline to
answer

Mr. Jacksox. You decline to answer?

Mr. Shepro. I decline to answer the question for the following
reasons

Mr. Jacksox. Very well. It took us a long time to get to it.

Mr. Shepro. I didn't want to answer it that way but you are forc-
ing me to, Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jacksox. I am forcing you to do nothing. Let the record show
that except to ask you to give an answer to the question — —

Mr. Estermax. Will you put the gavel down while he is talking?

Mr. Jackson. I am not going to throw it.

Mr. Estermax. It makes us nervous, too. Perhaps I should have a
gavel so I could stop you.

Mr. Jacksox, Perhaps you can bring one with you.

Mr. Shepro. My first reason is: I will not join any arrangement
between you and Mr. Stoddard, and certain members of the board of
education in destroying free education and free elections in this com-
munity.

This is definitely Federal interference in local elections and is con-
trary to the fentli amendment.

My second reason is this : I have been teaching boys and girls the
principle of American Government and the ideals of our democracy
for more than 30 years.

There has been established between me and three generations of
my students, who literally number in the thousands, a relationship
of confidence, trust, and friendship. To many, many of my students
I have stood in loco parentis.

To answer your question would be degrading and make me seem
contemptible and cowardly in their eyes.

Mr. Jackson. Are you reading a statement, Mr. Shepro?

Mr. Shepro. I am not reading the statement. I am ]ust using my
notes here.

Mr. Jackson. You are using notes and not a previously prepared
statement?

Mr. EsTERMAN. Just clou't answer any questions.

Mr. Shepro. There are some statements on here, yes, which I am
reading. I am reading some of them and talking about others.

Mr. Jackson. Very well. Proceed.

Mr. Shepro. To answer this question would degrade me and would
make me seem contemptible and cowardly in their eyes since I have
always taught that under our Constitution everyone's thought is his
own and no one has the right to control another person's thought.

My second reason is that this committee does not seek subversives
but aims at suppressing academic freedom. I must point out that this

31747— 53— pt. 4 3

744 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

inquiry is an attempt at political supervision in the field of education,
and that such interference must reduce the standards of education.

If the methods of this committee suceed, we are going to raise a
generation of yes men and silent dissenting opinion.

You have compelled me to come here in order to frighten me and
among all teachers you have created an atmosphere of fear and un-
certainty if they do not conform to your ideas.

I must insist that as a teacher of American history for more than
30 years that our greatest heritage is freedom, freedom to think and
to speak, and a teacher must stand fast on that principle and must
resist all attempts to stifle this heritage.

My third reason is that I stand on the first amendment which pro-
hibits inquiry into my association with any group of people or any
organizaton or political party as a matter of principle. And as a
matter of principle, I don't have to give an accounting about such
matters to this or any other body.

And in the same connection under the United States Constitution
you may not extract from me any ideas or thoughts or information
against my will. I am not compelled to testify against myself. This
is the fifth amendment and it was designed to protect the innocent.

I must not violate my oath of office nor can I permit you to force
me to violate my oath; nor will I join you in repudiating your oath
of office to support and defend the Constitution.

My fifth reason is : I am an employee of the board of education, the
State of California, which has seen fit to protect by statute the life of
teachers and the children. The law is set out in full in what are com-
monly known as the tenure of protection to be found in division 7 of
the Education Code, State of California.

As such an employee I have on numerous occasions taken an oath
to support and defend the Constitution of the United States and
California.

First, when I became a permanent t eacher, and second, when
I received my life diploma, and third, I took an oath before the Los
Angeles Board of Education known as the reaffirmation oath of 1948.

I took also an oath in 1950 known as the Levering Act oath. And I
must also name the thousands and thousands of times that I took the
oath of allegiance with my children at innumerable school exercises.

This committee, therefore, has no power whatever to require from
me any further oaths, declarations, or expurgations as a condition of
my employment.

The ninth and tenth amendments of the Bill of Rights protects me
in this.

My sixth point is the Educational Code of California, section 13230,
consisting of only 5 lines, which read as follows :

Each teacher shall endeavor to impress upon the minds of the pupils the princi-
ples of morality, truth, .iustice, and patriotism ; to teach them to avoid idle-
ness, profanity, and falsehood. To instruct them in the principles of free gov-
ernment, and to train them up to a true comprehension of the rights, duties,
and dignities of American citizenship.

Now, as a teacher of American government, I have taught my stu-
dents that vmder the law Congress is forbidden to abridge or interfere
with the freedom of speech, press, religion, and assembly.

Since I have in good faith and conscience done my best to give them
the power and the tools to think for themselves, I would indeed be

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 745

a shabby and unconscionable teacher if I sat here and permitted you
to do my thinking.

These are my reasons, and I shall incorporate them in my answer to
all similar questions. That is the end of my statement, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Jackson. Thank you.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. Doyle. I think I want to ask the professor just one question.
I think you were in the room when I read the statement of J. Edgar
Hoover which he made on April 4.

Mr. SiiEPRO. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. Wherein he said, on April 4 :

There is no room in America for Communists or Communist sympathies in our
educational system. Let us not permit them to poison the receptive minds of
youth with their deceptions.

That is only a part of the quotation.

Now, we have cumulative evidence, Professor, that members of the
Communist Party in the classrooms are not free to think other than
along the Marxist line. In other words, there is no freedom in the
mind of an active Communist or in his experience in our classrooms
to think freely.

As stated by J. Edgar Hoover and others, there is no such freedom
among the Communists.

I don't want to ask you if you agree with J. Edgar Hoover, in view
of your statement that you wouldn't answer any questions. In other
words, I don't want to get into the realm of your thinking, because
contrary to what you state here, we are not interested in the realm of
your thinking, as such. We are interested in getting your cooperation,
if you can give it to us, on whether or not you are acquainted with any
subversive activities of the Communist Party in our school system.

I am not asking you if you are a Communist, but I am asking you
if you are familiar with any such activity in our public schools. If
you are, unless joii feel it would subject you to an infringement of
your constitutional rights; I will ask you to cooperate if you feel it
does not infringe on your constitutional rights. I want you to under-
stand that.

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Shepro. I understand the question.

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Shepro. Mr. Doyle, my attorneys don't quite understand the
question. My attorneys say they didn't quite understand the question
and would you please make yourself a little bit more clear, specifically.
You mentioned a good many things.

Mr. Doyle. But I realize you understand my question, because I
heard you say you did to your counsel.

Mr. Esterman. Is that fair, Mr. Doyle? Is that fair to listen in to
a discussion between a lawyer and his client?

Mr. Doyle. I couldn't help but hear it. Your client talked loud
enough for me and anyone nearby to hear him very plainly.

Mr. Marshall. I am astonished that you would do such a thing.
I am astonished that you would listen in on a professional conference.

746 COIVUVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Jackson. Professional conferences have been ^oing on for
gome time, and in quite audible tones.

Mr. Marshall. I am shocked, Mr. Doyle, as a member of the Board,
tiiat you say you overheard that statement.

Mr. Jackson. Will you please be in order?

Mr. Doyle. You are shocked at many things.

Mr. Marshall. I have never been more shocked than by the last
remark of yourself.

Mr. Doyle. I can understand why you are shocked.

Mr. Marshall. And you sliould understand.

Mr. Shepro. Would you kindly repeat the most pertinent pait of
the question, Mr. Doyle '^

Mr. Doyle. INIay I state that in spite of your statement that you
feel we are interfering with your constitutional privilege, I wish to
say in asking this question that I do not attempt to interfere with
your constitutional rights nor do I ask you what your mental proc-
esses are and how you arrive at your answers. I am asking j^ou
wdiether or not during your course of teaching in the Los Angeles
schools, having taught these thousands of youngsters in high school,
as you stated, did you become aware of any Communist Party activi-
ties in the held of education in the Los Angeles schools?

Now, if you did, are you in a position, without feeling it would
infringe upon your constitutional rights, to help the committee to
the extent to which you personally observed, if you did, any activi-
ties of the Communist Party in the realm of puljlic education?

Mr. Shepro. Look, Mr, Doyle, you know a person doesn't teach in
a school for 30 years and handle all these youngsters, and I am a very
well-liked teacher

Mr. Doyle. I would assume you would be.

Mr. Shepro. I am a very well -liked teacher.

Mr. Esterman. Just a minute ; just a minute. Will you clear the
hearing room as you promised ? You said you would clear the hear-
ing room if there was any demonstration.

Mr. Jackson. Yes. I will repeat to the audience the admonition
that was given at the beginning of the session against any demonstra-
tion, friendly or antagonistic, favorable or unfavorable.

Mr. Shepro. And for further clarification, not only am I a teacher
but I am the head of the department, which means that there is a
good deal of confidence in me,

Mr. Tavenner. What department is that?

Mr. Shepro. That is the department of social studies, social studies
department. Now, for 30 years I have been teaching United States
history and civics, which is United States Government, and allied
subjects, and I have never had any question of my loyalty.

Mr. Doyle. I am not asking you, Professor, about vour loyalty. I
am asking you the frank question, I am not even asking you if you
ever were or are now a Communist. I am asking you whether or not
during your 30 years of fine experience as a public-school teacher in
Los Angeles, Calif., you observed any activities of the Communist
Party in educational fields.

Now, if you did, I assume that as an American citizen you would
naturally want to cooperate with a committee of your Congress in
trying to find out the extent to which the Communist Party has been
active in education. I am not asking you whether or not you were a

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 747

member of a cell. I will be frank with you and tell you that I won't
ask you that, but what I am asking you, sir, to do, is to cooperate with
this committee <ind help us to know the extent to which you personally
have observed, if you have observed, any activities of the Communist
Party in your 30 years of teaching experience and education.

(At this point Mr. Shepro conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Doyle. Now, I will be further frank with you and tell you I
won't ask you whether or not you have or are now a member or ever
have been a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Shepro. Mr. Dovle, I have heard you read a number of times
law 601.

Mr. Doyle. Public Law 601.

Mr. Shepro. That is right. In which you are here trying to find
out whether there is any Communist propaganda ; is that right ?

Mr. Doyle. All right, or activities.

Mr. Shepro. Or activities.

Mr. Doyle. That is right.

Mr. Shepko. Now, as far as I am concerned, I don't know about
others, but as far as I am concerned, have you made your inquiries,
as far as my activities in education are concerned, over the 30 years
that I have been in the public schools, first of all with reference to
my surroundings — have you consulted with my superiors? They
would know. Have you consulted with my colleagues? Have you
consulted my students ?

It seems to me now that if that is what you are after, certainly
you should h.ave gone out there or summoned those people to you,
and you should ask, "Now, is this man teaching things which would
be un-American?"

Mr. Doyle. Well, of course, Professor

Mr. Shepro. Is that a fair question ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes. And in answering your question, I will say that
we never call before this committee a person who has not been pretty
thoroughly investigated by very competent men. Some of our in-
vestigators in California are former FBI men, and we don't waste
your time nor the committee's time when we ask you to come before

us.

Mr. Shepro. But you had no evidence as to whether my teaching
out there has been un-American or not, have you ?

Mr. Doyle. Here is J. Edgar Hoover. He is quite an authority
in any man's books, and he states that a Communist in the classroom
is a hazard to America.

Now, I am quite willing to take J. Edgar Hoover's appraisal,
because he is the head of our national FBI, and he tells us that
Comnumists in the classroom liave no freedom of integrity, mentally;
that they can't teach freely.

Mr. Shepro. But, Mr. Doyle, look, J. Edgar Hoover is not a school-
teacher; and, look, I have been in the schools, in 1 school for 27
years. It seems to me that if you are going to do a job on this thing,
a right job, you should go out and ask the people who I am working
with, "Has this man ever done anything that would make him seem
disloyal?"

Mr. Doyle. Well, I will say to you again that you are here in answer
to a subpena which was served on you after very experienced FBI

748 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

men discovered an area of knowledge on your part as to the sub-
versive conduct of the Communist Party which our investigators
believed that you could help to protect our American system of gov-
ernment with, if you felt inclined to cooperate with the* committee.

Now, I don't care to argue further with you. I gave you a frank
statement that I wouldn't ask you if you had ever been a Communist
Party member. I was simply asking for your cooperatin on that one
thing and understand you don't care to give it.

Mr. Jackson. If you withdraw the question.

Mr. Doyle. Yes.

Mr. Shepro. I want to make a statement.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle has withdrawn the question. There is no
question pending. There is no reason why the witness should not be
excused, is there ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.

INIr. Jackson. The witness is excused.

As long as tliei'e have been several long statements read into the
record, I think it might be well to read into the record a statement
made on April 5 by Dr. Malcolm A. Love, San Diego, State College
president, who said that :

Communists are totally unfit to be professors because —
and I quote :
tbey are intellectual lackeys incapable of honest inquiry.

Now quoting again.

The business of a college is to turn out free and inquiring minds, not to pro-
vide Communists with captive audiences that may be influenced by Red
propaganda.

And it goes on at considerable length. The committee is delighted
that San Diego State has joined with Stanford University, UCLA,
and the University of California in stating that a Communist has no
place in a classroom.

The committee will stand adjourned until 1 o'clock.

(Thereupon, at 12 noon, the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at
1p.m., same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

(At the hour of 1 p. m., of the same day, the proceedings were re-
sumed, with Representative Donald L. Jackson being present.)

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order.

Under the authority contained in Public Law 601 a subcommittee
of 1 is herewith established, to hear the testimony of the succeeding
witnesses and until the return of Congressman Doyle, who has been
unavoidably delayed for the time being.

Who is your first witness ?

Mr. Tavenner. Rose Posell.

Mrs. Posell. I don't see my attorney, Mr, Jackson. I wouldn't
like to appear without him.

Mr. Jackson. Who is your attorney ?

Mrs. Posell. Mr. Esterman.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Esterman is not here, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. Norman Byrne.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 749

Mr. Jackson. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?

Mr. Byrne. I do.

TESTIMONY OF NOKMAN BYRNE, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,

ROBERT W. KENNY

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. Are your represented by counsel,
Mr. Byrne ?

Mr. Byrne. I have a counsel, sir, but he has not shown up yet.

Mr. Jackson. Is it your desire to continue before your counsel
returns ?

Mr. Byrne. Oh, I think so. Let's get on.

Mr. Jackson. With the understanding you are entitled to have
counsel with you and if at any time during the course of the proceed-
ings you desire to confer with your counsel, I wish you would make
that fact clear at that time.

Mr. Byrne. I shall.

Mr. Jackson. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?

Mr. Byrne. Norman Byrne, B-y-r-n-e.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Byrne ?

Mr. Byrne. I was born in the State of Washington, 1899, 5th of
February.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?

Mr. Byrne. I am a plumber, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you followed any other occupations ?

Mr. Byrne. Yes, sir, I have been a soldier and I have been a teacher.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
your educational training has been, that is, your formal educational
training?

Mr. Byrne. Usual elementary and high-school training. Univer-
sity of Oregon for 2 degrees, and Harvard for 1. University of Cali-
fornia for research. That is the principal

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat degrees have you received ?

Mr. Byrne. I received 1 B. A. and 2'M. A.'s.

Mr. Tavenner. In what field ?

Mr. Byrne. The field of mathematics and philosophy, and my re-
search at California was in anthropology.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you complete your formal educational
training ?

Mr. Byrne. Approximately 1927.

Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say you were in the military
service.

Mr. Byrne. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Between what years ?

Mr. Byrne. First World War, 1917 through 1918, 13 months over-
seas ; United States Marine Corps.

Second World War, from 1942 to 1947.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, how you have
been employed since 1935 ?

750 COMlvnjNIST activities in the LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Byrne. 1935 I was at Los Angeles City College, or whatever it
was called at that time. I left City College, 1 believe in 1942. United
States Army after that, until 1947.

After I came back from the wars I have, as I said, been a plimiber.

Mr. Tavenxer. Will you state again, please, during what period
you were in the field of education, in which you were a teacher?

Mr. Byrne. Yes. I joined the staff at City College, I believe it was
in 1929. And with the exception of 1 year, when I had a leave of
absence, I was there until the fall of 1942, 1 believe.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the American Federation
of Teachers ?

Mr. Byrne. Yes, sir, I was.

Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time were you a member?

Mr. Byrne. To the best of my knowledge I joined it in 1936 and
attended meetings for about a year, something like that, maybe a
year and a half. After that I was merely a dues-paying member, until
I went off to the wars in 1942.

Mr. Ta\'enner. What local were you a member of?

Mr. Byrne. The local here in Los Angeles. I have forgotten the
number.

Mr. Ta-s^nner. Local 430 ?

Mr. Byrne. I believe that is it, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Byrne, we have had testimony before the com-
mittee that there was organized in Los Angeles a cell or a unit of the
Communist Party composed exclusively of members of the teaching
profession. That all these members of the teaching profession, who
were members of this group of the Communist Party or nearly all of
them, were members of the American Federation of Teachers.

Prof. LeKoy Herndon, in the course of his testimony, and Mr.
Eichard B. Lewis, in the course of his testimony, and Anne Kinney,
also known as Jane Howe, in the course of sworn testimony on her
part, identified 3'ou as a member of that group.

Then there has been the testimony before the committee of ]\Ir. Max
Silver. Mr. Silver was the organizational secretary of the Los Ange-
les County Communist Party organization for a period of time, and
was a high functionary in the party and withdrew from the Com-
munist Party sometime after 1945.

In the course of his testimony before the committee I asked him
certain questions, which he answered, and I believe I should read
them to you :

QuKSTioN. I believe at this time I will as^k .you to tell the committee what you
know about the formation of Communist Party groups within the teaching pro-
fession.

Mr. Silver. Well, we had a teachers' branch, part of the professional section.

Mr. Tavenner. Where was this group or branch establi>;hecr? Was it in any
particular congressional district? I am speaking now merely of the location
of the organization.

Mr. Silver. In all probability it was functioning either in the 13th or loth
Congressional District.

Mr. Tavenner. What type of people were embraced within its organization?

Mr. Silver. I have never visited the teachers' branch. I came in contact
with some of them through the professional section.

Mr. Tavenner. Did these teachers represent various branches of the edu-
cational svstom of the community, such as the public schools, the universities,
and private schools?

Mr. Silver. 1 have no information.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how many members were in the branch?

COIVOIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 751

Mr. Silver. I believe 15 or 20.

Mr. Tavenner. Who was the organizer of the group, if you l^novp?

Mr. Silver. The most active teacher that participated in the general life of
the party was Abe Miukus. As a matter of fact, he was at one time the or-
ganizer of the professional section.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether Norman T. Byrne was at one time an
organizer?

Mr. Silver. Professor Byrne, you mean?

Mr. Tavenner. Byrne.

j\Ir. Silver. This is how we knew him. He was a teacher in the City Col-
lege. I have known Byrne, not from the teachers' branch, and I have never
known him as an organizer of the branch. If he was, then it was in the very
early years, probably in the thirties. I have known of Norman Byrne's activi-
ties'as one of the top speakers that carried the torch against war during 1939
and 1940.

He participated very actively in, at that time, the peace move, and there
were 2 or 3 speakers that were constantly talking. One was Sara Ornitz, Herb
Biberman and Norman Byrne. And I cannot recall the fourth one.

Mr. Tavenner. Those were all activities of the Communist Party?

INIr. Silver. Those were activities of the peace movement which was directed
by the Communist Party.

Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the Communist
Party?

Mr. Silver. Yes ; I considered him a member from two points of view. In the
first place, I visited his home a number of times to take up certain problems.
I cannot recall .iust what.

Mr. Tavenner. Vv'ere those problems related to the Communist Party?

Mr. Silver. Otherwise I wouldn't have gone. Second, I was in meetings of
the peace commission which involved people who were active in this Holly-
wood peace movement, as well as people who were in the [American] League
Against War and Fascism, which later turned into the [American] League tor
Peace and Democracy.

And I had participated in a number of these peace commissions at which he
was present.

Now, I would like to ask you whether or not the witnesses I have
mentioned, that is, Professor Herndon, Professor Lewis, and Mr.
Silver were correct in their identification of you as having been a
member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Byrne. It is a perfectly technical situation, of course, and I
do not hesitate to invoke the fifth amendment and all its parts, and
decline to answer. And I stipulate or, if you wish, state that that
applies to all future questions along the same line, to save time.

Mr. Jackson. I would like to state at this time, Mr. Kenny,^ we
asked your client whether he objected to proceeding without you, and
he said he would proceed.

Mr. Robert Kenny. Well, that is a great tribute to my skill.

Mr. Ta\^nner. You may recall from my reading of the testimony
of Mr. Silver that he said he went to your home, he visited your home
a number of times to take up certain problems, but that he did not
recall the exact nature of them.

Will you tell the committee what those problems were?

(At this point Mr. Byrne conferred wih Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee what those problems
were?

Mr. Byrne. Same answer.

Mr. Tavenner. For the same reasons ?

Mr. Byrne. Yes; for the same reasons.

Mr. Ta\'Enner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

1 Robprt W. Kenny appeared, after interrosntion of the witness was begun, as counsel
for Norman Byrne.

752 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. If you will pardon me, I do have another question.

Mr. Jackson. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time?

Mr. Byrne, Same answer, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, did the witness Rose Posell indicate
who her attorney was ?

Mr. Jackson. I believe her attorney is Mr. Esterman.

Will you please rise and hold up your right hand ?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and notliing
but the truth, so help you God ?

Mrs. Posell, Yes. Mr, Tavenner and ISIr. Jackson, before any
further questioning goes on I would like to have permission for my
attorney to cross-examine the previous witnesses who testified
against me.

Mr. Jackson. As has been stated previously, the rules of the com-
mittee and the rules of the House of Representatives do not permit
cross-examination of previous witnesses by counsel.

If you have a statement that you would like to file with the
committee, the committee will be happy to receive it.

Mrs. Posell. May my attorney make a brief statement ?

Mr. Jackson. No ; your attorney is not permitted to address oral
arcfument or make statements to the committee. He is beside you
only for the purpose of advising you of jour constitutional rights
during the period of your interrogation.

Mrs. Posell. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ROSE POSELL, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL,
WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please?

Mrs, Posell. Rose Posell.
• Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Mrs. Posell. I am ; yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the
record ?

Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.

Mr. Esterman. William B. Esterman.

Mr, Tavenner. "Wliat is the place of your birth, please?

INIrs, Posell. I was born in New York City.

Mr, Tavenner. What is your occupation ?

Mrs. Posell. I am a teacher,

Mr. Tavenner. "VA-liat has been your formal educational training
for your profession ?

IVirs, Posell. I went to the public schools here in Los Angeles, and
high school. I received my bachelor-of-arts degree in UCLA in 1934.
I also took some work at the University of California at Berkeley,

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
employment you have had within your profession ?

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 753

Mrs. PosELL, I have been emploj^ed by the Los Angeles City schools
since 1937 as an elementary-school teacher.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member at any time of the American
Federation of Teachers ?

Mrs. PosELL. Well, Mv. Tavenner, I really could not answer that
question with integrity, because I don't remember. At the present
time I am not a member.

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has had testimony that there existed
in Los Angeles a Communist Party cell composed exclusively or almost
exclusively of members of the teaching profession, and that this group
of teachers was exclusively, if not entirely, almost exclusively members
of the Teachers' Union.

Prof. LeRoy Hernclon and Anne Kinney, otherwise known as Jane
Howe, have both identified j'ou as having been a member of that group
of the Communist Party. Were they correct in so identifying you ?

Mrs. PbSELL. Mr. Tavenner, is this. going to be a test of veracity
between myself and previous witnesses ?

Mr. Tamsnner. Will you answer the question ?

Mrs. PosELL. I don't know those witnesses and I really could not
say anything about it.

"Mr. Jackson. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
any time ?

Mrs. PosELL. Mr. Jackson, I will answer questions like the one you
just propounded to me with neither "Yes" nor "No," and any other
questions just like it, for the following reasons

]Mr. Jackson. I am sorry. We went through this at great length
this morning. The Chair is going to insist upon an answer, and then,
following the answer, you may feel quite at liberty to give whatever
reasons you desire.

However, the question must be answered or a declination entered
before the reasons are given.

(At this point Mrs. Posell conferred with Mr. Esterman and
Mr. Marshall.)

Mrs. PosELL. Mr. Jackson, I cannot do that. You cannot compel
me to answer this question in your words. I would like to use my
very own words, and I would like to answer the way I wish to. I think
you would give me the courtesy of answering the question. I loiow
that you are making me answer this question because you are in collu-
sion with our board of education that is dominating

Mr. Jackson. I will say to the witness that I personally resent that
deeply. I am not in collusion with anyone. I am carrying out
my duties and my obligations as imposed on me by the Congress.

Mrs. PosELL. I would like to answer this question, but I would like
to answer it in my own words, and not in the words put in my mouth
by Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. As soon as you have answered the question you will
be given every opportunity to state your reasons. We have no desire
to in any way limit the reasons that you have. We have listened as
long as 15 minutes this morning to the reasons for refusal to answer.

However, the Chair feels that it is quite within the prerogative of
the committee to require that the question be answered or your declina-
tion to answer entered, at which time you will be permitted to state
your reasons.

754 COJVtlMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

(At this point Mrs. Posell conferred with Mr. Esterman and
Mr. Marshall.)

Mr. Jackson. Let us, first of all, dispose of the pending question.

Mrs. PosELL. Mr. Jackson, I am not going to give you an answer
that you want me to give you. I am going to answer this question in
my own words, and I think I have the right to do that.

Mr. Jackson. I am not suggesting that you give any answer, nor
am I trying to dictate your answer to you. You have a choice of three
courses of action. You can answer "Yes" or "No" or decline to
answer.

However, there is presently pending a question which has been
directed to 3^ou by counsel, and as soon as an answer to that question
has been entered, then you will be given every opportunity to explain
the reasons for your answer.

Mrs. PosELL. I am not answering it that way. I am answer-
ing it

lilr. Jackson. No; you have not yet answered the question. You
have simply said, "I will not answer 'Yes' or No'," to that question.

(At this point Mrs. Posell conferred with Mr. Esterman and
Mr. Marshall.)

Mrs. PoSELL. JVIr. Jackson, I have an attorney here, and he is giv-
ing me legal advice that I have confidence in ; and if you will let me
proceed with my answer, perhaps you will be more satisfied.

Mr. Jackson. I will be perfectly satisfied as soon as you deem it
advisable to answer the question which is now pending, following
which you will be given an opportunity to explain the constitutional
grounds upon which you take your stand in the event of a declination
to answer. I have no idea how you are going to answer.

Mrs. PosELL. An answer to a question doesn't have to be a "Yes"
or "No" answer. It can be an explanation, which I am going to give.

Mr. Jackson. I am sorry, but as far as tlie Chair is concerned, you
are going to answer or decline to answer the question first, and there-
upon you will be given every opportunity to explain your answer.
The Chair hereby directs that the witness answer the question or
give a declination, following which the reasons for the declination or
the reason for the answer will be heard.

(At this point Mrs. Posell conferred with IVIr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mrs. PosELL. ]\Ir. Jackson, I am here, I am prepared to answer the
question, but I am not going to answer it in your words, and if you
don't wish an answer, please w'ithclraw the question.

Mr. Jackson. The question will not be withdrawn, nor are you being
directed in any manner to give any kind of an answer, except the Chair
is requiring that an answer be given to the question which has been
asked by counsel, and following your answer, as I have said several
times, you wnll be given an opportunity to explain your reasons for
declining to answer or for answering as you do.

As the record now stands, your statement is that 3'ou will not answer
yes or no to that question.

Mrs. Posell. Well, you haven't heard my answer. How do you
know how I am going to answer ?

Mr. Jackson. I am waiting for your answer.

Mr. Esterman. Go ahead.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 755

Mrs. PoSELL, My answer has several points.

Mr. Jackson. Very Avell, give your answer now, and your reasons
after the answer.

Mrs. PosELL. Very well, as a certified teacher

Mr. Jackson. What is your answer to the question? There is a
question pending.

Mrs. PosELL. My answer has 5 points and I would like to give them
all. Each point is directed

Mr. Jackson. Do j^ou decline to answer the question?

Mr. EsTEEMAN. Mr. Chairman, please don't rag the witness.

Mr. Jackson. I am not ragging the witness.

IMr. Estekman. I have advised her she may answer in her own
words, and that is the way she is going to answer, and I also advised
her that your legal advice is inaccurate, and it is inaccurate and I am
prepared to demonstrate that.

Mr. Jackson. All right, I will let you fight it out on that ground.

Mr. EsTERMAN. You have asked the question and she will give her
answer.

Mr. Jackson. She will give an answer to the question or a declina-
tion to answer, w]iereu]K)n she will be given an opportunity to state her
reasons. As the situation stands at this moment, the record would
show very clearly, Mr. Esterman, that counsel has directed a question
to the witness and the witness has been directed by the Chair to answer
the question or decline to r.nswer, following which answer she will be
given an opportunity to explain her reasons.

However, the committee is still going to write the rules for this
conmiittee and this has been the standing procedure of the committee
for a long time, and I, for one, do not intend to deviate from it in
the present instance.

Mrs. PosELL. Mr. Jackson, may I request you do not pound your
gavel at me?

Mr. Jackson. You may request it; however, for the benefit of the
witness I am not pounding the gavel at the witness.

Mr. Esterman. Why don't you remove the people as you said you
would l AVliat are you running, a show here ?

Mr. Jackson. The Chair is not constrained to listen to a great deal
more personal comment from counsel.

Mr. Esterman. You made a promise. You said you would remove
them if they behaved this w^ay.

Mr. Jackson. I am quite capable of determining what time the
room should be cleared. xVnd I will suggest to counsel that he confine
his advice to his client and not to the Chair.

Mr. Esterman. And I will ask the Chair not to give my client
legal advice.

Mr. Jackson. The Chair is not advising your client. It is simply
instructing her to answer the question. We had better ask the question
one more time.

Will the reporter read it, or will counsel restate his question?

(The question w^as read.)

Mrs. PosELL. The answer to the question is neither "Yes" or "No,"
and all other questions like it, for the following five reasons

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused for a period of a half-hour,
or immediately upon the conclusion of the next witness.

Call your next witness.

756 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. EsTERMAisT. Mr. Chairman, we are ready. We have been called.
Why don't we finish with this witness?

Mr. Jackson. I am quite willing to finish with the witness, but
certainly not in the face of these delaying tactics.

Mr. EsTERMAN. There is no court in tlie land that will justify your
position that a witness must answer "Yes" or "No"' or decline to
answer. The witness has a right to answer in her own words.

Mr. Jackson. You may advise your client to that effect.

Mr. EsTERMAN. She has been advised. She has tried for 15 minutes
to finish her answer and you interrupt her.

Mr. Jackson. I simply asked the witness, which I shall continue
to do, to give a straightforward answer or a declination to answer the
question which has been proposed by counsel.

Mr. EsTERMAN. You suggest the answer be straightforward.

Mr. Jackson. Following which she will be given an opportunity
to set forth any reasons which she may have for declining to answer
or to explain any answer she may give. If the witness does not
desire to do that at this time, this matter will be laid over until the
conclusion of the next witness, which I hope will not be unduly long.
And I would certainly hope that will come about within the next half-
hour or three-quarters of an hour.

Mrs. PosELL. Mr. Jackson, I am prepared to answer the question
if you will let me do it in my own way.

Mr. Jackson. You may answer the question, which is a very direct,
straightforward question. The reasons, which I assume are printed
and are in front of you, may be given following the answer to the
question or your declination to answer the question.

Mrs. PosELL. Will you please explain what you mean, printed
for me ?

Mr. Jackson. Well, I have never seen them, but you do have a series
of printed statements.

Mrs. PosELL. These are my own notes which I typed myself.

Mr. J \CKS0N. They are printed.

Mrs. PosELL. That is insulting.

Mr. Jackson. No; it is not insulting. They are typewritten,
printed.

Mrs. PosELL. You added the words "for me."

Mr. Jackson. No; I didn't intend to say "for you," and I did not
say "for you." They are typewritten notes or a typewritten state-
ment which you have in front of you.

However, that is beside the point. The direction still stands to
answer the question which is pending.

Mr. Esterman. Go ahead and answer it.

Mrs. PosELL. I cannot say the words that you are directing me to
put in my mouth. I will only say what I feel in my heart and what
I can say.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused for the present and will kindly
remain in the hearing room.

Mrs. PosELL. Is the question withdrawn ?

Mr. Jackson. No; the question is not withdrawn. The question
stands.

Mrs. PosELL. Then I would like to answer that question.

Mr. Jackson. You may answer the question or give your declina-
tion, whereupon you will be enabled to give your reasons for declining.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 757

Mrs. PosELL. I cannot say the words that you would tell me to say.

Mr. Jackson. I haven't told you to say anything.

Mrs. PosELL. Yes ; you have, Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. I have not.

Mrs. PosELL. You have told me to say, "I decline or refuse," and
I don't, and I am not going to say that.

Mr. Jackson. The record at the moment is that there is a question
pending which you have refused to answer.

Mr. EsTERMAN. And for the following reasons, she said._

Mr. Jackson. All right, the witness will be excused, and it will Iw
appreciated if she will remain within call.

Mr. Esterman. That is all right.

(Whereupon the witness Rose Posell was temporarily excused.)

Mr. Jackson. Who is your next witness?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Serrill Gerber.

Mr, Jackson. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that
the testimony you are about to give before this committee will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?

Mr. Gerber. I do.

TESTIMONY OF SEREILL GERBER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name?

Mr. Gerber. Serrill Gerber.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Mr. Gerber. Of course.

Mr. Tavenner. What was your reply?

Mr. Gerber. Of course, I am accompanied by counsel.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the
record ?

Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.

Mr. Esterman. William B. Esterman.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where you born, Mr. Gerber?

Mr. Gerber. Toledo, Ohio, 1913.

Mr. TA^rENNER. What is your occupation ?

Mr. Gerber. I am a teacher.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
your formal educational training has been ?

Mr. Gerber. Nothing very spectacular at all. Elementary school
in South Dakota, high school and college in Los Angeles, and a bache-
lor's from UCLA is about all.

Mr. Tavenner. When did you receive your bachelor's degree?

Mr. Gerber. 1946 would be a close date.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in the teaching
profession ?

Mr. Gerber. Since then.

Mr. Tavenner. What is the field of teaching in which you are en-
gaged ?

Mr. Gerber. I am sorry.

Mr. Tavenner. What is the field of teaching in which you are
engaged ?

Mr. Gerber. You mean what level, what grade ?

758 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Gerber. Elementary gi*ade, sixth grade, Evergreen Avenue in
the Los Angeles City schools.

Would you wait just a moment, please? I would like to consult
with counsel.

(At this point Mr. Gerber conferred with ^Ir. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Gerber. I am ready now.

Mr. Tavenner. Professor Gerber

Mr. Gerber. I am just a teacher. I am not a professor.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, the committee was advised in the course of this
hearinor and in the sworn testimonv of Edith Macia, that when she
joined a group of the Communist Party in Los Angeles, or soon there-
after

Mr. Gerber. Who was that again, please ? I am sorry, I didn't hear
the name.

Mr. Tavenner. Edith Macia. I will begin the question over.

During the course of her testimony, Edith Macia stated that you
acted as chairman of the Communist Party group of which she was a
member. Were you at that time a member of the Comunist Party
group in Los Angeles ?

(At this point Mr. Gerber conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Gerber. Well, you have me sort of happy, so maybe I will recip-
rocate. You came to the point without playing cat and mouse, as I
have seen you do this morning, so I will try to meet you halfway.

I decline to answer that question, Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. Declination is noted.

Mr. Gerber. Now, I understand I am being given the opportunity
of telling

Mr. Jackson. You may state your reasons for your declination.

Mr. Gerber. Thank you. Now, I suppose this is my opportunity to
clear my patriotism with this committee, and to clear the atmosphere,
as Mr. Jackson described this morning at the hearing. Strangel}', I
feel little compulsion to do this. I think it is perhaps because people
who know me have never questioned my sense of loyalty to, well, to
anything I belong to — my family, my community, and certainly least
of all my Nation, so if I reject your opportunity to obtain this com-
mittee's approval of my patriotism, I do so for four very good reasons,
and I am informed that they are based and founded in the law.

No. 1, to me it is more important that the principles I believe in of
academic freedom be ])rotected than that I clear myself of the kind of
charges that are bandied about in this connnittee. I think many peo-
ple agree that teachers are under the kind of constant governmental
scrutiny that takes place here at this committee. We can do no other
than raise a generation of robot-minded children. I am not going to
contribute to that.

Now, to me your question is the first step, true it is but a step, but
nonetheless it is a step in this direction, and I am happj'- to remind you
that it is in conflict with the Constitution's first amendment, under
which academic freedom, among otlicr freedoms, flourishes in our
country.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 759

I might add I don't feel that our country has suffered unduly from
the existence of the kind of academic freedom I am defending here
today. We are all products of it. And I think we are rather proud
even of our differences here in this room.

No^y. No. 2 — maybe this is more important than the other. Before
1 spoke of teachers. Now I speak of all citizens of our coimtry. All
people's private lives are to be freed from Government meddling.
I think it is more important that we protect that principle than that I
use this opportunity to get your approval of my patriotism. And if
previously I had protected my rights as a teacher with the first
amendmeiit, now I protect my rights as a citizen with that same part
of our law.

No. 3. To me I have lived in Los Angeles the bulk of my life. It
is more important that our Los Angel.es school system be free from
interference by the Federal Government than that I clear my patriot-
ism with this committee.

With respect to teacher loyalty, a number of local measures have
in fact already been taken and I complied with all of these require-
ments, including State and local loyalty oaths. You are well aware
of those. I remind the connnittee of the ninth and tenth amend-
ments, which I believe, among other things, protect our local schools
from Federal annoyance.

I would say that our local schools have solved many problems bigger
than this without the help of the Federal Government, and they are
well able to handle this problem likewise.

Well. I should like the foregoing to be my complete answer, but in
fairness to myself and to protect myself against any possible judiciary
proceeding, I am incorporating tlie fifth amendment as a premise,
that no one need bear witness against himself. And I incorporate
that thought as a part of my answer to your question.

And I was, believe me, happy to hear Mr. Jackson this morning
agree with the advice that counsel has given me, that the fifth amend-
ment is for the protection of innocent people, and I know that there
are those in the audience who agree neither with Mr. Jackson nor
with my counsel on this point.

My final reason, if there is is a problem of protecting our children —
there are many who will agree with me that this is a poor remedy to
try to protect our children.

Now, I stand ready to cooperate with any reasonable effort by
reasonable men to insure that our children are instructed in the prin-
ciples of democracy and no other as the foundation of our way of
life, and I cannot believe that your question contributes one whit to
that purpose. On the contrary, it defeats that purpose, and if you
wish, I could go oil and give you proof of how you have defeated that
purpose already.

This constitutes my answer to this, and with your permission, to
similar questions.

Mr. Jackson. And for the reasons stated, yon decline to answer
the question?

JNIr. Gerber. Yes, yes, I agree with that.

Mr. Jackson. Are there any further questions, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. TA^^NNER. Are you acquainted with Louis Rosser ?

Mr. Gerber. Just once more on the name, please.

31747— 53— pt. 4 4

760 COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Louis Rosser.

(At this point Mr. Gerber conferred with Mr. Esteiman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Gerber. Before I can give any kind of intelligent answer,
would you tell me — it is just a name right now. Tell me who this
person is, before I get on the hook.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Rosser, in a sworn statement before the com-
mittee on January 15, 1952, stated that he was at one time an organizer
for the Young Communist League and a member of the Communist
Party.

(At this point Mr. Gerber conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr,
Marshall.)

Mr. Tavenner. And in the course of his testimony he stated that
when he knew you, when he met you, that you were a student leader
and tha^t j^ou had spent a great deal of time in the work with the
students at UCLA and City College, and that you were a member
of the Young Communist League.

Was he correct in identifying you as a member of the Young Com-
munist League ?

Mr. Gerber. That is a pretty serious question, from a person whose
name I can't remember.

Mr. Tavenner. It shouldn't be, regardless of who the individual is.
Were 3^ou a member of the Young Communist League at any time?

Mr. Gerber. Oh, well, that is a different question than asking me
about some name here.

Mr. Tavenner. I am asking whether or not he was correct in identi-
fying you as a member of the Young Communist League.

Mr. Gerber. This seems to be a slightly different question from your
other question.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, let us answer that question first. Was he cor-
rect in identifying you as a member of the Young Communist League?

(At this point Mr. Gerber conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Gerber. I can't distinguish that question in type and principle
from, of course, the one I have already answered, and I would spe-
cifically answer that question if 3'OU insisted, in exactly or almost the
same way I answered the previous question.

Mr. Tavenner. Then I understand you decline to answer the ques-
tion for the same reason that you assigned before ?

Mr. Gerber. Yes; of course, I do. That is just what I said.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, were you a member of the Young Communist
League at any time ?

Mr. Gerber. You see, that to me again is in the same category of
the other questions that I have indicated, and as a matter of prin-
ciple, I decline to answer, or put it any way you choose. I will answer
you the same why I did the previous question.

Mr. Tavenner. You drew a distinction between the question of
whether or not he was correct in his identification of you as a member
of the Young Communist League and your membership in the Young
Communist League, and I am merely giving you the opportunity to
answer it both ways.

Mr. Geijber. I understand j^our question to ask me whether I knew
this pei-son, and that is a difficult thing. I met someone the first day

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 761

I was here at the hearing. That was a man who was at City College
with me, and it took a moment to recall him.

Mr. Tavenner. My question is, Were you at any time a member
of the Young Communist League ?

Mr. Gerber. Yes ; and I think I told you that as a matter of prin-
ciple this question falls in the category of questions to me, questions
that can't be answered in any other way than I have previously
answered.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you so answer it?

Mr. Gerber. Oh, yes ; of course, I do.

Mr. Tavenner. Then let's make our answers clear.

Mr. Geiujer. I know you have special language here that is "yes,"
"no," and "I refuse," a three-word dictionary, "Yes," "no," and "I
refuse." Some of us have a little more extended vocabulary and those
words don't come to our minds'

Mr. Tavenner. If you will just use language so we will know what
you mean, we will appreciate it.

Mr. Gerber. If you will just tell me what you want

Mr. Tavenner. I want to know what your answer is to the question
as to whether or not you were ever a member of the Young Communist
League.

Mr. Gerber. As a matter of principle this question falls in the cate-
gory of those questions that to me can only be answered essentially
the same way as I answered a previous similar question.

Mr. Tavenner. Then how do you answer it?

Mr. Gerber. I decline to answer it for essentially the same reasons
I declined to answer a previous similar question.

(At this point Mr. Gerber conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

Mr. Jackson. For the same reasons?

Mr. Gerber. If I were to give a complete answer, it is conceivable,
as my mind were to work out my answer, I should add an additional
reason or subtract a reason, I can't answer that question.

Mr. Jackson. But as the matter stands, you decline to answer for
the reasons previously given ?

Mr. Gerber. Goodness, I said that, Mr. Jackson. I said that 5
minutes ago.

Mr, Jackson. I am having difficulty in understanding you, in spite
of your extensive vocabulary.

Do you have any further questions ?

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness shouldn't be
excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. No.

Mr. Jackson. The witnes's may be excused.

We will recess for 5 minutes.

(Wliereupon a recess was taken from 1 : 50 to 2: 06.)

(After the. recess, at 2:06 p. m., the committee reconvened and
Representative Jackson was present.)

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order.

Whom do you desire to call, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. William Oliver.

Mr. Kenny. Mr. Oliver, I think, must be a few niinutes late. He
is working, you know, and he has to get to press. He is going to be

762 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

here at 2. He oiifrht to be here at any time. By the time you call the
next witness he will be available.

Mr. Tavennek. Mr. Alfred Page.

Mr. Jacksox. Will you raise your rig:ht hand? Do you solemnly
swear the testimony you are about to J2;iye, you will tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the trut:h, so help you God ?

Mr. Page. I do.

TESTIMONY OF CHAELES A. PAGE, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, ROBERT W. KENNY

Mr. Jackson. Be seated.

Mr, Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?

Mr. Page. Charles A. Page.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Mr. Page. I am, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself?

Mr. Kenny. Robert W. Kenny.

Mr. Tavenner. You are known by the name of Charles Page ?

Mr. Page. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you also known by the name of Alfred Page ?

Mr. Page. Never, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your middle name ?

Mr. Page. Albert.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state the time and place of vour
birth?

]Mr. Page. March 1899, Newton, Mass.

Mr. Tam^nner. Will your speak a little louder, please ?

Mr. Page. Excuse me.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation, Mr. Page ?

Mr. Page. I have no occupation, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. What occupations have you followed ?

Mr. Page. I have worked in the publishing business. I have been
a secretary. I have done a small amount of writing, and I have been
in the American foreign service.

Mr. Ta\"enner. Will you state to the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?

Mr. Page. Harvard A. B. 1921. University of Sorbonne 1926,
University of California, doctor of philosophy, 1952.

Mr. Tavenner. You stated you were in the publishing business at
one time. During what period of time were you so employed?

Mr. Page. 1921 to about 1925 or 1926.

Mr, Tavenner. You stated you were secretary. What did you
mean by that ?

Ml'. Page. I held several secretarial positions, as it is ordinarily
understood.

Mr. Tavenner. What type of secretarial positions?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with IVIj". Kenny.)

(Kei)resentatiye Cj'le Doyle entered the hearing room at this
point, 2 : 10 p. m.)

Mr. Page. Mi*. Taveniiei-, tlie ])eriod in which T held these secre-
tarial positions was from about 1934 to 1941.

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

COM]VIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 763

Mr. Page. I shall endeavor, Mr. Counsel, to answer all pertinent
questions previous to 1934 and subsequent to 1941.

Mr. Tavenner. But you will not answer any pertinent questions
between the dates of 1934 and 1941 ?

Mr. Page. I am inclined to believe that is so, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. You seem to be in doubt about that. You are in-
clined to believe. So let me ask you some questions, specific questions
regarding that period.

What position as secretary did you hold between 1934 and 1941 ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. My counsel, sir, has advised me to decline to answer that
question, invoking my privilege under the fifth amendment, and I so do.

Mr. TavennerT Did you engage in the teaching profession at any
time?

Mr. Page. For a few months sometime between 1921 and 1925 for
perhaps 3 or 4 months I taught at a private school. I was teaching
assistant at the University of California in 1950 and 1951.

Mr. Ta^t3nner. Did you teach at any other school at any time?

Mr. Page. No, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you, Mr. Page, a photostatic copy of page 11
of tlie Daily Worker of New York, of the issue of December 3, 1946,
which refers to a "Best Book Fair" at Jefferson School. In the course
of that article appearing in the two left columns of the paper it
appears that 7/ou were to participate in a panel on understanding
economics today. And you are listed

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Tavtsnner. Here, or there is the name listed of Albert Page,
instructor in political economy at the Jefferson School. I ask that
this photostatic copy be marked "Exhibit 1" for identification only,
and I will ask you to examine it and state whether or not that
refreshes your recollection.

(The document referred to was marked "Page Exhibit No. 1" for
identification.)

Mr. Page What is your question, sir?

Mr. Ta^t.nner. I ask you to examine the paper, the document
handed you, and to state whether or not that refreshes your recol-
lection as to whether or not you did teach in some other educational
institution besides the one you described back in 1921 to 1925.

Mr. Page. The only two institutions that I recall I have already
mentioned. I have had absolutely no connection with that school
mentioned there.

I might explain, Mr. Counsel, that I was subpenaed 15 months ago
under my correct name as Charles Albert Page. I received, I think it
was, 8 postponements of my appearance before this committee.

During those notifications the "Charles" seems to have gotten lost
and I was notified as Albert, and I was subpenaed this time as Albert.
I accepted the subpena without question, because I had been subpenaed
under my correct name and the address was correct. I think that it is
useless to pursue any further questions identifying me as an Albert
Page.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, were you at any time connected with the Jef-
ferson School?

Mr. Page. I never was, sir.

764 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Did you take part in the Best Book Fair in the
Jefferson School in any capacity?

Mr. Page. I did not, sir.

Mr. Tavenner, In other words, the Albert Page referred to here
is not you, Charles Albert Page ?

Mr. Page. Obviously no.

Mr. Tavenner. Now, were you employed at any time by the United
States Government?

Mr. Page. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time ?

Mr. Page. In 1927 to 1933 and 1941 to 1946.

Mr. Ta\^nner. In what capacity were you employed ?

Mr. Page. 1927 to 1933 I was a secretary in the Foreign Service.
From 1941 to 1946 I was in the auxiliary Foreign Service.

Mr. Tavenner. You referred in the early part of your testimony
to your having served as secretary.

Mr. Page. That is correct.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you speaking of these two positions when you
told us that you had been a secretary ?

Mr. Page. No, sir. I was referring to the period 1934 to 1941
when I was a secretary.

Mr. Ta\t3NNer. What was the nature of yovir employment as sec-
retary between 1934 and 1941 ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. I decline to state, sir, on the grounds previously men-
tioned.

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you what purports to be a photostatic copy
of form 57, which is an application for Federal employment, and I
will ask that it be marked "Page Exhibit No. 2" for identification
only.

Mr. Jackson. It will be so marked.

(The document referred to was marked "Page Exhibit No. 2" for
identification.)

Mr, Tavenner. I will ask you to examine it and state whether or
not it is your application for Federal employment.

That is a photostatic copy of your application.

Mr. Page. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner, Will you examine section 17 and read it, please,
question 17, and read it ?

Mr. Page (reading) :

Do you advocate or have you ever advocated or are you now or have you
ever been a member of any organization that advocates the overthrow of the
Government of the United States by force or violence? If so, give complete
details under item 45.

Mr, Tavenner. How does the question indicate that it was an-
swered ?

Mr. Page. "No."

Mr. Tavenner. Was that a truthful answer ?

Mr. Page, I decline to answer, sir, on the grounds already stated.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence, and ask
it be marked "Page Exhibit 1."

Mr. Jackson. Page exhibit 1 or exhibit 2 ?

Mr. Tavenner. Two.

Mr. Jackson. It will be received.

COMMimiST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA 765

(The document heretofore marked "Page Exhibit No. 2" for identi-
fication was received in evidence.)

Mr. Tavennek. Will you tell the committee more in detail, please,
what the nature of your emjDloyment was while you were employed
by the State Department?

Mr. Page. What years, sir ?

Mr. Tavenner. Well, let us begin first with the earlier period,
1927 to 1933.

Mr. Page. Sir, that was some twenty-five-odd years ago and in
order to refresh my memory and not take up the time of the com-
mittee, I jotted down a few notes here.

I served in a vice consular capacity, handling matters of citizen-
ship, in the shipping section, clipping newspapers — sort of a general
messenger boy in charge of the inventory, and some commercial
reporting.

Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say you were in Foreign Service
during part of that time.

Mr. Page. That is true, sir. That is what I am speaking about.

Mr. Tavenner. Where were jou employed in Foreign Service —
what country ?

Mr. Page. In Cuba from 1927 to 1930. In Ecuador from 1930 to
1932. In Guatamala from 1932 to 1933.

Mr. Tavenner. Then where were you during the period of 1941
to 1946?

Mr. Page. I was emploj^ed in Uruguay from 1941, about September
1941, to the spring of 1943. I was then transferred.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the nature of jour duties during that
period ?

Mr. Page. I was cultural relations attache.

Mr. Tavenner. Then you started to tell us you were transferred.

Mr. Page. I was transferred to the cultural relations division of
the State Department for a few months and was appointed cultural
relations attache in Paris in 1944. I remained there until 1946.

Mr. Tavenner. What were the circumstances under which your
employment was terminated or became terminated with the United
States Government ?

Mr. Page. In 1946, sir?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Page. I had a temporary wartime appointment in the auxiliary
service. I was requested to resign, and I resigned after the war was
over.

Mr. Ta\'enner. Was a loyalty investigation conducted prior to
your being asked to resign ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Yes, sir. I was asked questions by the Federal Bureau
of Investigation in 1943 and again in 1945.

Mr. Ta%tenner. Did you advise the Federal Bureau of Investigation
regarding your past affiliation with the Communist Party, if you
had such an affiliation ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny^)

Mr. Page. Sir, the answers to the questions put to me by the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation were taken down in writing, and inas-
much as this is nearly 10 years ago, I do not recall all of the questions,
and I shall not be able to answer the question.

766 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Were you asked the question -wlietlier or not you
had been a member of the Communist Party ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. I don't recall, sir, frankly.

Mr. Ta\tenner. Pardon me.

Mr. Page. Frankly, I don't recall, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. I may say to you that the files of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation are not available to this committee or its staff.

Were you asked a question by the Federal Bureau of Investigation
as to whether or not you had at any time been a member of an organi-
zation which sought to overthrow the Government of the United
States by the use of force or violence if necessary ?

Mr. Page. Well, sir, as I say, that is the same type of question,
and unless I could see — and I don't know whether that report is a
security matter or not — I don't know whether I would be able to
see it.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Well, were you a member of the Communist Party
at any time ?

Mr. Page. I decline to state, sir, on the grounds already mentioned.

Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed between June 1936 and
August of 1936 ?

Mr. Page. I had been unemployed, sir, except for the 1 year as
teaching assistant at the University of California up to 1951.

Mr. Tavenner. I think I have not made my question plain, or you
misunderstood me. I understand that you were employed b}?^ the
United States Government from approximately 1927 to 1933 or 1934.

Mr. Page. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. And then again from 1941 until 1946?

Mr. Page. That is right, sir.

IVIr. Tavenner. Now, I am asking you about your employment in
the period between 1934 and 1941. How were you employed during
that period of time?

Mr. Page. I have already stated, sir, that I decline to answer that
question on the grounds previously given you.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, I find in the application for Federal employ-
;ment on form 57, entered as Page exhibit No. 2, that you gave as the
place of your employment between June 1936 and August 1936 as
Holh^wood, Calif.

Mr. Page. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Was that correct?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. I didn't hear the question ; I beg your pardon.

Mr. Tavenner. I say, I see from your form 57 that you gave as the
place of your employment from January 1936 to August 1936 as
Hollywood, Calif. Is that correct, that you were employed in Holly-
wood at that time?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Sir, I decline to answer that question on the grounds
already stated.

Mr. Tavenner. I am reading from your form No. 57. where it
says that thcname of your employer durinjr that period of June 1936
to August 1936 was the Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Co.. address Culver
City. Wliat was the nature of your emplovment at that time at
Culver City?

COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 767

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Sir, that falls within the same period in which I decline
to answer questions on the grounds already stated.

Mr. Tavenner. You were listed as a junior writer during that
period of time. You told us in the early part of your testmiony
that you did some writing. Did you write during that period for the
Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Co. ?

Mr. Page. The same question and the same answer.

Mr. Tavenner. I notice also from your form 57 that you were
employed from January 1939 to December 1940 at Sacramento and
Los Angeles, and that the name of the employer is State of California,
and that your position was assistant to the lieutenant governor.

Mr. Page. Your question, sir?

Mr. Tavenner. Is that correct?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Yes. That is a matter of public record.

Mr. Tavenner. What ?

Mr. Page. That is a matter of public record and is correct, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Where did you reside from January 1939 to De-
cember 1940 ?

Mr. Page. That is the same period, sir, and I decline to answer the
question on the same grounds.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you live in New York City at any time during
the period from 1934 to* 1941 ?

Mr. Page. That is the same period, sir, and I refuse to answer the
question on the same ground.

Mr. Jackson. Is it my understanding, Mr. Page, that you refuse to
answer every question having to do with the period 1934 to 1941 ?

Mr. Ta^^nner. Yes.

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Jackson. Well, it certainly is not your contention, Mr. Page,
that all of the things you did — or necessarily any of the things you
did during that period would tend to incriminate you.

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Sir, I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.

Mr. Jackson. Very well.

Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Page, I ask you to tell us how you were
employed between 1934 and 1941, and you first declined to answer
on the ground that to do so may tend to incriminate you and then
you have stated to me that you were employed by the State of Cali-
fornia between January 1939 and December 1940.

There was nothing to indicate that your employment during that
period, between January 1939 and 1940 might tend to incriminate
you, was there ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Sir, I believe that I do not have to state my reasons for
invoking the privilege of not answering that question.

Mr. Tavenner. No, but there is an obligation on the part of the
committee to determine whether or not you are using the fifth amend-
ment in good faith, and when you answered the first time that you
would not testify regarding your employment between 1934 and 1941
and then later did do so, as between 1939 and 1940, it causes me or

768 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

causes the committee to have some doubt about the good faith in your
use of the fifth amendment as to the rest of that period.

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Tavenner. It is in direct contradiction to your first statement.

Mr. Page. Sir, I answered with regard to 1939 and 1940, because
it was a matter of public record. I stand on my previous — I continue
my previous stand of denying that on the same grounds as the other
questions.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member or affiliated in any way with
the Screen Writers' Guild ?

Mr. Page. I decline to answer that question, sir, for the same rea-
sons.

Mr. Tavenner. It is observed from your form 57 that there are
wide gaps in stating the periods of your employment, how you were
employed. Were you asked by the Government how you had been
employed during those periods of time that are not shown on your
form 57 ?

Mr. Page. Will you

Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me just a minute.

Mr. Page. Will you indicate to me what periods of time that might
be?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Which includes the time from August 1936
to January 1939 and again from May 1943 to November 15, 1944.

( At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny. )

Mr. Page. With regard to the first period, sir, that falls within
the period which I have declined to answer questions.

With regard to 1943 to 1944 I was traveling in Spain, vacationing
and studying.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you apply for a passport to Spain ?

Mr. Page. Naturally, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. When did you obtain your passport?

Mr. Page. I say naturally. I am not sure I didn't still have the
same passport that I had had previously. I don't recall. I imagine
that I did apply for a passport.

Mr. Jackson. You formerly held a diplomatic passport, I assume?

Mr. Page. I did, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. What was your purpose in going to Spain ?

Mr. Page. Purely personal reasons. I had lived for a number of
years in Latin America, and had become very much interested in the
culture of Latin America and the people, and I wished to know the
motherland and I also wished to perfect my knowledge of the Spanish
language.

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain in Spain ?

Mr. Page. From November 1943 to about June 1944.

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that your form 57 bears the address of
Jefferson Apartments, 16th and M Streets, Washington, D. C. How
long had you lived at that place prior to

Mr. Page. What is that date ?

Mr. Tavenner. November 15, 1944.

Mr. Page. Frankly, I don't recall, sir. I believe it was only a few
weeks.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend any Communist Party meeting in
the city of Washington between 1941 and November 15, 1944?

(At "this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 769

Mr. Page. Certainly nothing, sir, that I knew or was aware of was
a Communist meeting.

Mr. TA^^:NNER. Had you attended a Communist Party meeting in
Washington at any time prior to 1941 ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Sir, you are referring again to the period or it is included,
at least, in the period 1934 to 1941, the period in which I am declining
to answer on the grounds already given.

Mr. Tavenner. You state on your form 57 that your legal or voting
residence was the State of New York. When did you live in the
Stateof New York?

Mr. Page. I have not resided permanently in the State of New York.
But when I was in the Foreign Service, sir, I used New York as my
voting address..

Mr. Tavenner. Had you ever lived in New York?

Mr. Page. I have never had residence there, never ; never lived there
for more than a few weeks at a time.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever vote in the State of New York ?

Mr. Page. I have never voted — wait a minute. Frankly, I don't
recall, sir. The point is that I don't recall whether, when I was abroad
and using that address, whether I was on leave at the time of an elec-
tion and voted ; I frankly don't recall, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. In what voting district in New York were you
registered ?

Mr. Page. I don't recall that, either, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you registered as a voter in New York ?

Mr. Page. I believe I was for a few years.

Mr. Tavenner. AVliat years ?

Mr. Page. Again, sir, I don't recall. If you have the information
there, sir, and will ask me the specific question, it might help me to
refresh my memory.

Mr. Tavenner. How did you obtain your first employment in the
State Department in Washington ?

Mr. Page. I took the Foreign Service examinations, passed success-
fully, and was appointed.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the first position to which you were
appointed?

Mr. Page. I was appointed a vice consul in Habana, Cuba.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Page, Mr. Martin Berkeley appeared as a wit-
ness before this committee and under oath stated his own Communist
Party experience, the period over which he had been a member, when
lie withdrew from the Communist Party and in the course of his testi-
mony he stated that he had been a member between 1936 and 1943.

He identified you as a member of the Communist Party some time
during that period. Was he correct in identifying you as a member
of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Page. Sir, that is the period that I have already mentioned,
that I shall decline to answer on the grounds already given.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time since 1941 ?

Mr. Page. No, sir ; I have not.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
any time prior to 1934?

Mr. Page. No, sir ; I was not.

770 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Tavenner. During the period between 1934 and 1941 were you
a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Page. I decline to state, sir, on the grounds already given.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. Doyle. During the time you were assistant to the Lieutenant
Governor of the State of California, who was the Lieutenant Gov-
ernor ?

Mr. Page. Mr. Ellis E. Patterson.

Mr. Doyle. That was the years 1939 and 1940

Mr. Page. Yes, sir.

^5

Mr. Doyle. As I recall it. At any time during the years or be-
tween the years 1934 and 1941 did you travel abroad ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. That, sir, is in that same period of 1934 to 1941, and I
decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Doyle. Well, did you use your diplomatic passport any time
from the years 1934 to 1941 to go to any foreign nation ?

Mr. Page. That is the same question, and I give you the same
answer.

Mr. Doyle. Were you employed at all times during the years 1934
to 1941 ?

Mr. Page. The same question, sir. The same answer.

Mr. Doyle. You formerly had an experience as a writer. Are you
an author of some books or pamphlets ?

Mr. Page. The only thing that I have done in the last 20 years is
an article that av)peared in the autumn issue of the Virginia Quarterly
Keview, entitled "The Political Eole of Labor in Latin America."

That article was reprinted by the War Department as required read-
ing for the National Military School in Washington.

Mr. Doyle. That was about what year ?

Mr. Page. That was about 6 months ago, sir.

Mr. Doyle. As I recall it, you stated you were an instructor i"
political economy on occasions.

Mr. Page. No sir; I don't recall having made that statement.

Mr. Doyle. Well, I misunderstood you.

Mr. Page. I think you must be mistaking me with this Albert Page.

Mr. Doyle. During the years 1934 to 1941, were you an employee
of any foreign government in any capacity, either all that time or any
part of that time?

Mr. Page. That is that same period, sir, in which I decline to an-
swer the question for the reasons given.

Mr. Doyle, In other words, as I understand it now, Mr. Page —
and I wasn't here at the opening of your testimony — as T understand
it, there is a period of years in your lifetime, from 19.')4 to 1941, during
all of which period you refuse to answer any question as to what
you were doing or where you were ; is that correct ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Sir, I believe that my record will speak for itself, with-
out having to explain or expand.

Mr. Doyle. As I stated, I didn't have the benefit of being here when
you first started your testimony. But I will ask you again, do I un-
derstand— and if I do understand, of course, I don't care to take your
time or our time to ask you certain other questions — but as I now un-

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 771

derstand it, if I asked you any question about where you were or
what you were doing or who your employers were, whether or not
you were in any foreign country or anything else about who you were
or wliat you were during that period, or what name you used between
1934 and 1941, you would decline to answer?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Mr. CongTessman, if you have some specific questions
to ask me concerning that period, I shall either answer them or try to
answer them.

Mr. DoylS. Did you travel in Russia at any time during those years ?

Mr. Page. I have never travelled in Russia in my life, sir.

Mr. Doyle. Did you travel anywhere besides Spain during those

years ?

Mr. Page. Yes. It is a rather lengthy tale. I drove a Red Cross
ambulance on the Italian front in World War I. I then returned and
joined the United States Marine Corps.

In the summer vacation of 1920 I toured England

Mr. Doyle. This is before 1934. I am asking you during the period
of 1934 to 1941. That is the period of time I am asking about.

]Mr. Page. Veiy good, sir.

Mr. Doyle. And only that period.

Mr. Page. During that period I do not believe that I left the United
States except possibly for some — yes,* twice some fishing at Guayamas.

Mr. Doyle. I would like to have been there also.

Mr. Page. Yes, we might have had fun.

Mr. Doyle. That is all.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Page, following your successful completion of
the Foreign Service examination, did you have an oral interview
following upon the written interview ?

Mr. Page. Certainly sir.

ISIr. Jacksox. With whom was that conducted ?

Mr. Page. It is 25 years ago ; I don't recall.

Mr. Jackson. It is difficult I know, but you don't recall at this time
who conducted the oral examination ?

Mr. Page. Representatives of the Civil Service and State Depart-
ments. I think those were the only two organizations represented at
the time.

Mr. Jackson. Your immediate superior, I assume was the Consul
General in Habana ?

Mr. Page. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jackson. W^io was it at the time you were there, if you recall?

ISIr. Page. A Mr. Leo Keener. I don't remember how he spelled
his name.

Mr. Jackson. Keener?

Mr. Page. I don't know, sir

Mr. Jackson. I think the record should show that the mention of
these names should imply no connotation of Communist affiliation or
activity on the part of those named. Wlio was Ambassador in Ecuador
during your stay there, Mr. Page ?

Mr. Page. Mr. Jackson, INIr. Chairman, you have already mentioned
that the mention of these names should have no connotation. Why
do we have to mention them ?

You will find my name in the Foreign Service Register of that
time, the Ambassador's name, and all of my colleagues, and all will be
listed there.

772 COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Jackson. I realize tluit. Unfortunately, we don't have a For-
eign Service Kegister here at the present time. If you have any
objection to mentioning them, I am not going to press the point.

Mr. Page. Yes, I should rather not.

Mr. Jacksox. Did you have any duty, any service in the State
Department in Washington at any time, any prolonged duty ?

Mr. Page. Well, the longest — really, the only real assignment I had
in the State Department was from the late spring of 1943 to the fall
of lO-W, when I was in the Cultural Relations Division.

Mr. Jackson. During your service with the State Department, Mr.
Page, were you at any time a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Page. Certainly not, sir.

Mr. Jackson. At no time during your service with the State
Department ?

Mr. Page. At no time.

Mr. Jackson. During the period of time that you were, I believe,
secretary to the Lieutenant Governor of California, were you a member
of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Page. I decline to state, sir, on the grounds already mentioned.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Page, I can only say that I regret the position you
have taken. I feel that it is within your ability to help the com-
mittee, the Congress and the American people, with some informa-
tion which might be of great value to all of them.

You are a very intelligent man; a man, I am sure, of considerable
ability.

I would certainly hope that if your perspective of this situation
changes at any time in the future and you see things in perhaps a
different light you will communicate with us. We are certainly not
here to biowbeat you or force anything on you.

Your constitutional privilege has been accorded you in all instances
today, but I do leave that open invitation for the future, if the situa-
tion changes or your own opinions change I hope you will avail your-
self of the forum offered by this committee.

Are there any further questions ?

Mr. Ta\^nner. No.

Mr. Doyle. May I ask one question, Mr. Chairman ?

Mr. Page, since 1941, which is the end of the period I believe you
stated you didn't care to discuss, since 1941 are you aware of any
activities, subversive activities of the Communist Party in the United
States, which you could help us to understand ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Doyle. As to how they operate.

Mr. Page. Sir, that is such a broad question I wouldn't even

Mr. Tavenner. Will you speak a little louder? We can't hear you.

Mr. Doyle. You know what the activities are, of course I mean
just that. Are you aware since 1941, or, have you any advice or help^
to give this committee that has come to your personal knowledge and
attention since 1941, of the activities of the American Communist
Party or of leaders thereof since 1941 ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Sir, I have no advice or information of value to give
the committee.

Mr. Doyle. Well, have you any advice or information to give us —
you may not think it is of value — but could you give us any informn-

COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 773

tion you liave about the activities of the American Communist Party
since 1941 and let us judge whether or not it is of vahie ?

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. My counsel advises me, sir, that it is too general a question
and I agree with my counsel.

Mr. Doyle. Of course, this committee, the congressional committee
that you are meeting with is assigned the obligation of asking any
question with reference to the subversive or un-American activities
of any person.

I am asking you now if you have any knowledge of subversive
activities of the Communist Party or any of its leadership or members
since 1911, that has come to your personal knowledge.

(At this point Mr. Page conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Page. Sir, I stated that I have not been a member of the Com-
munist Party, not implying that I had been previously, but I have
stated that I have not been a member of the Communist Party from
1941 to date. And therefore would have no opportunity to have any
information to give this committee,

Mr. Doyle. Of course, some people are not members of the Commu-
nist Party and do have opportunities to know how they are acting.

Mr. Page. I don't know about that, sir.

Mr. Doyle. I thought possibly that you were one of those ex-
perienced Government employees who might have some knowledge
that would be of benefit to your Congress.

Mr. Page. I am sorry, sir.

Mr. Doyle. Since 1941.

Mr. Page. I am sorry, I don't have such information.

Mr. Doyle. That is all.

Mr. Jackson. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Counsel ?

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. May I say, Mr. Page, that your rational, dispassion-
ate, and courteous answers are appreciated by the committee. It has
helped to expedite the matter and get it out of the way. You are
excused.

Mr. Page. Thank you very much, sir,

Mr. Tavenner. William Oliver.

Mr, Jackson, Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?

Mr, Oliver, I do,

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. OLIVER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, ROBERT W. KENNY

Mr, Jackson. Be seated. Let the record show that for the purpose
of hearing this witness and others to follow the subcommittee is re-
constituted to consist of Mr. Doyle and chairman, Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir?

Mr. Oliver, My name is William E. Oliver.

Mr, Tavenner. Are you also known by the name of Bill Oliver?

Mr. Oliver. That is a nickname that is used, to which I answer.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel?

Mr. Oliver. Yes ; I am, sir.

774 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record?

Mr. Kenny. Robert W. Kenny, also known as Bob.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr, Oliver?

Mr. Olrtsr. I was born in Liverpool, England, April 23, 1894.

Mr. Tavennp:r. When did you come to the United States ?

Mr. Oliver. I came to this country, United States, if I remember,
about August 1910.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen?

Mr. Oliver. I am, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you naturalized?

Mr. Oliver. I was naturalized — do you mind if I look at my notes
on it?

Mr. Tavenner. That's perfectly all right.

Mr. Olev'er. I was naturalized in Alameda County in 1920, as I
remember it. I think I am accurate on that.

Mr. Ta^tenner. What is your profession?

Mr. Oli\t2R. I write.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Are you employed as a writer ?

Mr. Oliver. I am.

Mr. Tavenner. By whom?

(At this point Mr. Oliver conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Olh^r. I am employed by a newspaper.

Mr. Tavenner. More than one newspaper?

Mr. Oliver. Not more than one newspaper.

Mr. Tavenner. What is the name of the newspaper?

(At this point Mr. Oliver conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Oliver. It is an evening newspaper.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, that isn't a very good indication of the name.
What is the name of the newspaper?

(At this point Mr. Oliver conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Oliver. I suggest that since the last witness was excused from
identifying his employer, in that connection I not be required to bring
the name of my employer into the present query.

Mr. Tavenner. So far as the last witness was concerned, he stated
he was unemployed.

Mr. Jackson. Is your employment a matter of public record, Mr.
Oliver?

Mr. Oliver. I have no knowledge of it being a matter of public
record.

Mr. Jackson. Do you write under a byline?

Mr. Oliver. I have.

Mr. Jackson. For what paper have you written ?

Mr. Olfver. a large afternoon newspaper.

INIr. Jackson. Is the newspaper the Evening Herald-Express?

(At this point Mr. Oliver conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Oliver. I do so answer this question under protest, and do
answer "Yes."

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel.

Mr. Oliver. I would like to cite my reasons, if I may.

Mr. Jackson. There is no question pending, I believe.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed as a newspaper
writer ?

Mr. Olrt^.r. I have worked as a newspaper writer continually on
the same job since September 1926.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 775

]Mr. Tavenner. Do you specialize in any particular type of re-
porting ?

Mr. Oliver. Sir, I write a lot of things.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you specialize in any particular type ?

Mr. Olin^er. I A\'ould like to have the question clarified, as to what
manner of reporting is intended.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a movie critic '?

Mr. OlR'ER. I am a drama critic, w^hich covers the reviewing of mo-
tion pictures as well as other departments of public entertainment.

JMr. Tavenner. A considerable part of your work has been that of
reviewing moving pictures, has it not ?

Mr. Oliver. When you refer to "work" you are referring to my act
of writing?

Mr. Tavenner. I am referring to the character of work that you do
as a writer for your paper.

Mr. Oliver. A considerable part of the work I have done for the
paper has been reviewing films, plays, and concerts.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Los Angeles News-
paper Guild?

(At this point Mr. Oliver conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Oliver. I have, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time have you been a member?

Mr. Oliver. I would have to be very vague about the year in which
I first became a member, but to the best of my recollection it w^as
jfbout the year 1I>35, 1936, or 1934. I would have to look at my union
inembership card, signed by Hey wood Broun, to find out just exactly
what the year was.

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member ?

Mr. Oliver. I have been continually a member and am a member
up to the present time, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been engaged in the field of lecturing
since you have been employed as a newspaper writer ?

Mr. Oliver. I would like to have the privilege of inquiring as to
what the term "lecture" means, specifically.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you lectured or talked to the California Labor
School at any time ?

(At this point Mr. Oliver conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point, 8: 10 p. m.)

Mr. Oli\t.k. Sir, I will decline to answer that question under the
protection of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has heard considerable evidence,
Mr. Oliver, regarding the interest of the Communist Party in infil-
tj-ating the Los Angeles News})aper Guild and endeavoring to control
its policies and its activities.

It has lieard evidence from a number of witnesses that there was a
Communist Party cell organization composed exclusively of members
of the Newspaper Guild of Los Angeles. One of the persons whom
I believe was secretary of the guild at one time, testified that she was
a member of this Communist Party group. Her name was Urcel
Daniel. She testified before the committee on July 8, 1952. She
described to the committee just how that Communist Party group
operated and she gave to the committee, as well as other witnesses,

31747— 53— pt. 4 5

776 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

the names of the persons she could recall who were members of the
Communist Party group, and who were also members of the News-
paper Guild.

I asked her this question :

"Question : Were you acquainted with Bill Oliver?" and her reply
was. "Yes, I was."

"Question : Was he a member of your unit of the Communist Party,
Miss Daniel ?" and her answer was, "Yes."

"Question: How Avas he employed?" and Miss Daniel replied, "He
was a movie reviewer for the Herald-Express."

Another witness who appeared before the committee stated that
at one time she had been a member of the Communist Party and a mem-
ber of this same group or cell of the Communist Party, composed ex-
clusively of members of the Newspaper Guild in Los Angeles. Her
name was Alice Judson, who was also known as Alice Bennett. She
testified before the committee in Washington on May 22, 1952.

She said she had been a member of this Communist Party group
between 1936 and 1942.

She was asked this question :

Question : Were you acquainted with a person by the name of Bill Oliver, Mrs.
Bennett?

and her answer was :

Yes.

Question : Was he a member of the newspaper unit, Mrs. Bennett?

and she replied :

Y(\s, during part of the time that I was. It is my recollection that he Joined
after I was in the unit.

Question : How was he employed, Mrs. Bennett?
Answer : As a dramatic critic for the Herald-Express.

Were these two witnesses, Urcel Daniel and Alice Bennett or Alice
Judson, correct in identifying you as a member of this unit of the
Communist Party made up exclusively of members of the Los Angeles
Newspaper Guild ?

(At this point Mr. Oliver conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Oliver. Sir, I decline to answer that question under the pro-
visions of the Constitution and I would like to briefly state the rea-
sons for my declination.

I would like to say first that as has been stated here by Congress-
man Jackson, that the use of the provisions of the Constitution for the
innocent has in itself by no means an implication of guilt.

I would like to further state that in answering anything but a
declination to this question, it is my opinion that I will not be serving
the purposes of this committee, but I will be a party to what seems
evident to all people belonging to organized labor, in effect, is an
attempt at union busting — an attempt to identify people active in the
union.

Mr. Tav1':nner. Let me interrupt you there. Do you think that this
committee ought to ignore Communist Party membership in the labor
unions just because there are labor unions?

Mr. Oliver. I would like to proceed with my reasons, sir, if I may.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you explain that ?

Mr. Oliver. That is, I believe, as has been stated, that it is a func-
tion of this committee to decide, whether rightly or wrongly, that it

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 777

is not my function to decide. I would like to proceed with my reasons,
if I may.

Mr. Jackson. I will make one observation, if I may, Mr. Oliver.
This committee has had, in time past, and recently, the assistance and
the help of American labor in attempting to rout out and disclose those
who are agents of an international conspiracy which we know as
communism.

Quite obviously those labor unions are not going to give any aid or
assistance to any committee of Congress or to any group which seeks
to bust the union. That is not the function of this committee. The
committee has never inquired into the relationships between manage-
ment and labor. We are concerned simply with finding out what
Communist infiltration there has been and the nature and extent of
it, and to that extent only do we enter into the field of organized labor.

Mr. Oliver. Thank you, sir, for the expression of your opinion. But
I would like to continue my reasons for declining.

Mr. Jackson. You may.

Mr. Oliver. And I don't think it can be fairly admitted that my
reasons for declining are fully understood by the gentlemen of this
committee until I have completed them. I use the words "union
busting," I used in very advisedly, because I have seen the effect of this
type of inquiry in the work of organized labor in unions, in active
leaders, people working for unions being redbaited under the present
climate of hysteria, and the work that formerly was acceptable in these
unions is now rendered ineffective.

I say this, because to me these pertain to the Los Angeles Newspaper
Guild, of which I am proud to be a member, and of which I was presi-
dent during the year 1944 and during which year the Los Angeles
Newspaper Guild has a proud record of cooperation with the war
effort and keeping the channels of communication open without any
disturbance — excuse me. To whom am I addressing this. Counsel ?

Mr. Jackson. We are all listening to you.

Mr. Tavenner. To the committee.

Mr. Oliver. This organization which has a fine record of cooperat-
ing with the country in preventing interruption of labor and keeping
the channels of communication open, and this organization which has
raised the status of newspapermen in this town from a position of in-
security, from a financial status of $25.50 a week for a family man,
that I saw before the union was organized, to a condition of comparable
security, where newspapermen can marry, raise families, buy homes
and become a responsible part of the community.

I say I decline to be a party to this prying and this intrusion into
the affairs of a union which has and can only result in a weakening
of the union's reputation, the union's effectiveness, and the work of its
leaders.

And I further decline because I regard this questioning into my
writing and into the act and fact of my writing as an invasion of free-
dom of the press.

I do say that if at the present time a subpena server can peer over
my shoulder while I am sitting down editing copy, then tomorrow he
can peer over the shoulder of the editor and the next day he can peer
over the shoulder of the ])ublisher sitting in his office and bring him to
account before some such committee to account for what he prints,
and who he sends the paper to.

778 COJXIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

I would like to call attention to the fact that on March 13 the Su-
preme Court handed down a unanimous decision reversing the con-
viction of Dr. Rumley for contempt of court for refusing to answer
questions about the conduct of his publishing business. That was a
decision that was unanimous and in which the Justices had many
things to say. If you care for it, I can give you a full page from
the Wall Street Journal as evidence on this decision upholding the
decision as a restoration of the freedom of the press and the meaning
of the first amendment.

My next reason that this is an invasion of the freedom of the press
is that some years back if such questions had been asked me, I would
have been unable to take part in the formation of a very important
newspaper, a newspaper that got to the people of this community
issues of a congressional election, namely, a paper called The Free
Press, which I helped to organize and for which I wrote on my own
time without any pay, and which helped to elect Congressman Doyle
to the Congress.

Now, if this committee had existed at that time. Congressman
Doyle would not have had the support or the advantage of the free-
dom of the press, because The Free Press which was gotten out would
not have had a chance to have been circulated.

Mr. Jackson.' Do you seriously contend, sir, that with the Commu-
nist Daily Worker, the People's Daily World writing anything and
everything they want to about this country, about our Congress, about
this committee, about any citizen whom they choose to defame, that
there is any limitation on freedom of the press in this country ?

Mr. Oliver. I am just pointing out.

Mr. Kenny. There is a lot of sideline coaching going on here, Mr.
Jackson. You may not be able to hear it as I have, but there is some-
one behind me directing the witness to answer questions. Is that an
agent of your committee ? I am sure this officer saw who it was, and
I think such a person should be ejected. She is usurping your function.

She said, "Answer the question."

Mr. Jackson. I will assert my function in just a moment, Mr.
Kenny, and that is to cut off any direct statements to the committee
from counsel. You are aware of our rules.

Mr. Kenny. I was trying to assist you.

Mr. Jackson. And I am now asking the audience again to please
refrain from any comments, whether favorable or unfavorable.

Proceed, Mr. Oliver.

Mr. Oliver. What was the question, please?

Mr. Jackson. You were stating your reasons, I believe, for refusing
to answer the question.

Mr. Oliver. Bringing my name into these discussions as a movie
critic, citing another reason now, points to another far-reaching result.
I am certain it is unexpected byproduct of the activities of this com-
mittee, and by that I mean the serious deterioration that I have wit-
nesses in the quality of public entertainment, not only in moving pic-
tures, but on the stage and in other lines of the theatrical business.

I can speak as an expert, I think, having seen thousands of produc-
tions and films in the almost 27 years that I have been reviewing these
productions. And since this committee started its operations in Plolly-
wood, by some coincidence it seems that the best brains, the practi-
tioners of the best arts have left Hollywood, and what we are getting

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 779

now is a series of trite, sterile, puffed up breakfast-wheat type of en-
tertainment that reflects their own value by theaters that are almost
denuded at times and which constitute a serious threat to the security
of the businessmen whose livelihood depends on the full channels of
public entertainment and the uncensorableness of the material that is
provided the public.

I cite this because I do consider having given the gi-eater part of
my mature life to the public, the business of public entertainment that
I have some concern over the effect of such questions as are being
directed to me and to other workers in the field of public entertain-
ment; on the quality, on the business, and on the enjoyment and the
culture, the very culture of the American people.

That is the reason I decline to answer, in addition to the others. I
think I can state more, but I don't wish to take your time. I just
wanted to cite those reasons for declining, and, as I say, I will quote
Congressman Jackson's words that the fifth amendment is for the inno-
cerit. It was put there by our Founding Fathers and I want to thank
the circumstances which enable me or prompted me to study again and
afresh and anew the Constitution and realize what a fine instrument
it is, and what a bedrock it is to the essential democracy of our country.

Mr. Jackson. As long as my statement has been mentioned again,
I did say it was for the protection of the innocent. However, a lot
of guilty people use it, so let us not feel that no one but the innocent
uses the fifth amendment. That was not the intent of my remarks,
and I want the record clear on that.

Mr. Oliver. Sir, I don't associate with guilty people. I associate
with innocent people. Perhaps you have more experience in that
direction than I have.

Mr. Jackson. Let me say in that connection there has been so much
discussion about the fifth amendment that a few months ago when
Trygve Lie of the United Nations was confronted with the problem
of discharging from the United Nations those American citizens who
refused to answer sworn testimony identifying them as members of
the Communist Party, that he convened a commission of very distin-
guished jurists, one an American, one a Belgian, and one an English-
man, to study, as an impartial board of arbiters, the provisions of the
American Constitution relating to self-incrimination.

Their report, when it was brought in, stated in unequivocable terms
that 1 of 2 things were true when a person took the provisions of the
fifth amendment to rely upon, either that his answer would incriminate
him as charged or that he was misusing the intent and purpose of the
fifth amendment.

And they further strengthened this statement by saying that the
assumption of the provisions of the fifth amendment by a witness is
in and of itself so liable to produce an assumption of guilt that the
fact of a witness relying upon the amendment incriminating may not
be later introduced in a subsequent court action as evidence.

Now, so much for the idea that everyone who takes the fifth amend-
ment is an innocent man, because that certainly is not the case. Inno-
cence would be better served by saying, "No, I have never been a
member of the Communist Party."

Mr. Oliver. I wish to be corrected if I made any impression that
I considered everybody who uses the fifth amendment as innocent.

780 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

I simply state that the use of that amendment, as has been stated,
is for the innocent. I am not acquainted with guilty people.

I thank you for the explanation in the United Nations case. I am
sorry to say I could not quite follow the legal phraseologj^, because
I am not a lawyer. I am an expert on motion pictures and theaters
and concerts.

Mr. Jackson. I am not a lawyer either, but I can read and receive
some definite impressions.

Do you have any further questions? Is there a question pending?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, this answer was involvecf and the
fifth amendment was alluded to several times, but it is not clear in
my mind at all that the witness has relied on the fifth amendment
as a ground for his refusal to answer. I wanted to make certain about
that.

(At this point Mr. Oliver conferred with Mr. Kenny.)

Mr. Oliver. Well, it is possible that in my studies of the Constitu-
tion at various times that I might not be quite clear. My under-
standing might not be correct, but it seemed perfectly clear to me
that the fifth amendment was designed to protect citizens and people.

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, but do you rely upon that. That is my only
question. You have discussed it, but clo you rely on the fifth amend-
ment as a ground for your refusal to testify ?

Mr. Oliver. I decline to answer the question involved under the
protection or on the basis or on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
I thought I made that clear.

Mr. Tavenner. That makes it clear. Are you now a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Olrt^r. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Oliver, you mentioned the case of Dr. Rumley,
do you remember ?

Mr. Oliver. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. I don't know what your information is, but you know,
don't you, that he didn't appear before this committee; that it was
not before this committee that Dr. Rumley appeared.

You don't imply in your statement that he appeared before this
committee.

Mr. Oliver. No, sil\

Mr. Doyle. Well, I just wanted that to be corrected, because he
appeared before the lobby investigating committee.

Mr. Oliver. The Buchanan committee.

Mr. Doyle. Of the United States Congress, and not before the House
Un-American Activities Committee.

Mr. Olh ER. I would like to make it clear I was not referring to the
circumstances of which committee it was. I was referring to the
circumstance of being held in contempt of court for refusing to
answer on his activities as a publisher and as a disseminator of the
news.

Mr. Jackson. I think there is a distinction to make in the Rumley
case. He was asked to give a committee of Congress a list of his
subscribers, which I think would be outside the scope of any com-
mittee.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 781

Mr. Oliver. And you asked to be given a list of witnesses and I was
asked to give a list of people in the Los Angeles Newspaper Guild.

Mr. Jackson. No, you were not asked that.

Mr. Tavenner. You were asked if you were a member.

Mr. Doyle. Now, may I make this observation? You used this
language or what appears to have been an attempt to say "we were
union busting."

Another witness used substantially the same language the other day,
at which time I made a statement, and I want to make that statement
again.

As a member of this committee, I certainly would not be interested
directly or indirectly, nor in any way, nor to any extent in busting
any union. I have been very proud of the fact that in all my elections
to Congress I have been endorsed by the A. F. of L. and the CIO.

I know of no effort on the part of this committee, directly or in-
directly, to bust unions.

Now, this is true, Mr. Oliver, that we do find, now and then in
organized labor, subversive people who try to use the union to project
the objectives of the Communist Party in the United States. In those
cases we have to decide whether or not just because they are in a
union we shall subpena them and get the truth.

We have to decide whether or not our investigators will investigate
a man just because he happens to be a union leader. But we can't
neglect our assignment from Congress in this investigation of sub-
versive activities merely because a man is a union leader.

That, however, I wish to assure you, does not mean that we as indi-
viduals or as a group have any interest in busting a union. I am
strongly in favor of the principles of collective bargaining, but I am
very much opposed to subversive people getting into organized labor
and using the unions to project the purposes of the Communist Party,
subversive purposes.

I felt in view of your observation that it appeared to all persons
that this committer was interested in busting unions and that I was
entitled as a member of this committee to counter that because it is
not a fact.

Mr. OLi\TJi. Tliank you, sir. I would like to correct the application
of the word "all." I think it must be understood that when I used the
word "all," it refers to all interested people concerned with the effect
of it upon the union. And furthermore I would like to add, and for
your information. Congressman Jackson, that the striking coincidence
affected me very strongly that just at this time when I should be called
to answer questions about the union, which could or could not be dam-
aging to the union itself, I being one of the active members of the union
and one of tlie founding members of the union, that at this time two of
the biggest dailies whose workers are members of the union are con-
ducting negotiations for higher wages. I can't see how that is any-
thing but indirectly affecting circumstances on the conduct of these
negotiations.

Mr. Doyle. No, no, Mr. Oliver, These hearings were set many,
many weeks ago. Many, many weeks ago we gave public notice that
we would be out in tlie Los Angeles area during this period of time.

Mr. Jackson. At least 2 months.

Mr. Doyle. At least 2 months ago. And certainly we had no notice
then nor have we in between of any negotiations in organized labor.

782 COROIUXIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mav I sav this: You would be surprised, if von don't know, v.
would be surprised at the number of union leaders in this area and
other areas that come to us and say, "We want the help of your com-
mittee in helping us to uncover and reveal those subversive Commu-
nists in the union who are tryinc: to take it over."

And we accepted those invitations if we have the time to make co-
operative investigations with the union leaders. But I wish to say
again, Mr. Oliver, that I know of no case in the years I have been on
this committee where, directly or indirectly, this committee has been
a knowing part to bust a union or to weaken a union.

Now, if it weakens a union to uncover subversive Communists in
the union, then naturally the union would be weakened. But we are
not going to stop in the field of labor merely because it happens to be
organized labor.

Mr. Oliver. I think I made my opinion clear by relating the facts
with reference to personnel in the unions, and comparing the modern
union with the unions in the past.

I say the present activities of the committee results in this type of
thing which I do not think is correct. I do not think that it is correct
for a Congressman to allow himself to be drawn into the affairs of a
union either by the invitation of a member of the union. It doesn't
seem to me to be good union practice; it doesn't seem to me to be the
kind of use of organized labor that is intended by the workers or by
the very laws which govern the operation of unions in this country.

Mr. Doyle. Let me ask you this question : If 3^ou knew of a person
in your union who was a member of the Communist Party of the
United States, and had subversive intentions, and you knew from
your personal knowledge that that person in your union was loyal to
the dictates of Moscow as contrasted to his dut}' to the American
people, would you be silent on that person merely because he was a
member of your union or would you reveal the activities of that sub-
versive person to the Government authorities, if that is a fair question ?

I am not trying to put you on the spot. I am trying to meet your
suggestion that we shouldn't investigate unions.

Mr. Oliver. Sir, that is a rather complicated question, a tenuous
question. It is a very different question.

Mr. Doyle. You m.ay cut it up and answer it that way.

Mr. Oliver. Our distinguished leader once said, "I will saj'' this. 'I
will fight by all legal means anybody in the union or out who performs
any acts that are against the interests of the union and organized
labor','' and I think you must take that as a corollary against the in-
terest of citizens of this country.

Mr. Jackson. With what labor organization is the Newspaper Guild
affiliated?

Mr, Oliaher. The Los Angeles Newspaper Guild is local 60 of the
Am.erican Newspaper Guild.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any international affiliation? I mean is it
AFLorCIO?

Mr. Oliver. It belongs to part of the Congress of Industrial Organ-
izations, CIO.

IVIr. Jackson. Well, I gather that you are in favor of the policies
of the CIO.

Mr. Oliver. I was hoping that this would not be brought up, because
I don't have the resolutions with me, but countless resolutions have

C0AO.IUN1ST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 783

been passed by the CIO and the American Newspaper Guild on this.

Mr. Doyle. Then you agree with the CIO in that regard ?

Mi\ Oliver. I would rather answer to a specific statement.

Mr. DoTLE. All right. Do you agree with the action of the CIO
in expelling a number of unions from membership because of Com-
munist domination ?

Mv. OLI^'ER. I would say that such an act is unconstitutional.

jMr. DoTLE. Let us not rule on the constitutionality of it. Do you
agree with the action of the CIO in expelling Communist unions?

Mr. Olr'er. Well, I think — I think you misunderstood that when
I raised the question of constitutionality, that I was raising or forc-
ing my own opinion on that.

I think that is eminently un-American to separate, divide the labor
movement on the basis of political beliefs and practices.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Oliver, let me say that we have hundreds of thou-
sands of words of testimony in the record of this committee, all of
which indicate beyond any peradventure of a doubt that Communists
in a labor organization take the directives of the Communist Party as
basic policy. The directives of the international union don't make a
bit of difference, as compared with the policy and directives which are
handed down by the Comnumist Party.

For my part, I think it is the better part of wisdom and good judg-
ment to boot the Communists out of the unions at the earliest possible
opportunity.

Mr. Doyle. I hope the CIO will keep on kicking Communists, in-
dividuals, and groups of individuals out of the leadership or member-
ship of the CIO union.

Mr. Oliver, Would you destroy the patient to cure a boil?

Mr. Jackson. The Communist cancer will kill any organism in
which it takes root.

Mr. Oliver. You would kill the patient, anyway?

Mr. Jackson. It is going to kill the patient. It is going to kill
American labor unions faster than any union-busting activities alleged
to be carried on by this committee.

Mr. Oliver. I think you will find that unions will do very well in
this town if you leave them alone.

Mr. Jackson. The unions have done very well, and we wish them
well.

Mr. Oliver. Thank you.

Mr, Jackson, Are there any further questions?

Mr, Ta\^nner, No, sir.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.

Tlie committee will take a 5-minute recess.

(Whereupon, at 3 : 41 p. m., a recess was taken until 3 : 52 p. m.)

(Whereupon, the committee reconvened at 3 : 52 p. m., with Repre-
sentatives Donald L. Jackson and Clyde Doyle present.)

Mr. Jackson. The committee will come to order.

Tlie Chair feels he must again admonish those in the audience
against any audible comments. Comments have been audible here
at the committee table.

784 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

The Cliair would again state that we liope it will not become neces-
sary to eject anyone from the committee room. We ask the coopera-
tion of all present, in refraining from applause or making any audible
comments during the course of testimony.

Who is your witness, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, before calling the next witness, may
I refer to one matter here for the record ?

Mr. Jackson. Yes.

Mr. Ta\t2nner. A message has been received from Jack Engelhardt
at the Veterans' Hospital, M. D., which I assume is Medical Detach-
ment, in which he states he is not the person mentioned in the course
of testimony earlier in the course of this hearing.

Mr. Jackson. So note it in the record.

Mr. Tavenner. I think it may be well, Mr. Chairman, to recall at
this time Rose Posell.

Mr. Jackson. Mrs. Posell, come forward, please. ^

Let the record show that the subcommittee of two, Mr. Doyle and
Mr. Jackson are present and in the hearing room for the purpose of
hearing testimony from this witness.

I am going to ask you to be sworn again.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the sub-
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?

Mrs. PosELL. I do.

TESTIMONY OF EOSE POSELL (RECALLED), ACCOMPANIED BY HER
COUNSEL, WILLIAM B. ESTEEMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Ta\^nner. What is your name, please ?

Mrs. Posell. Rose Posell.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Mrs. Posell. Yes ; I am.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the
i-ecord ?

Mr. Marsliall. Daniel G. ]Marshnll.

Mr. EsTERMAN. William B. Esterman.

Mr. Tavenner. Identifying questions were asked you earlier this
afternoon and I see no point

(At this point Mrs. Posell conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

Mr. Tavenner. In repeating those questions now. So I will ask
you the question which was pending at the time you were temporarily
released from the witness chair.

Were you at any time a member of a group or unit of the Communist
Party in Los Angeles, made up exclusively or for the most part, at
least, of members of the teaching profession who were also members
of the American Federation of Teachers?

Mrs. Posell. Is that the question ?

Mr. Taat=:nner. Yes.

Mrs. Posell. Pardon me just a moment.

(At this point Mrs. Posell conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mrs. Posell. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I will
not answer this question nor any other question like it for the following
five reasons : I feel, first of all, that the question you are asking me

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 785

Mr. Jackson. Just a moment.

Mr. Esi'ERMAN. Let her tinisli, please.

Mrs. PosELL. I would like

Mr. Doyle. I think, counsel, you are well aware — you have made
many appearances before this committee — that the necessary require-
ment we found necessary to make is that the witness first state whether
or not they answer "Yes" or "No" or decline to answer, and having
declined to answer, then they can take their reasonable time to give
their reasons.

Mr. EsTERMAN. Are you interrupting her again ? Because the law
doesn't say that.

Mr. Doyle. It is the rule of this committee and that is the way we
proceed.

Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed to make an answer
to the question first

(At this point Mrs. Posell conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

Mr. Doyle, And then take her good time to give the reasons.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is so directed to answer the question.

Mrs. Posell. I think I have prefaced my remarks with saying I
will not answer the question. You can construe that to mean what
you wish.

Mr. Jackson. Very well. It is construed to be a refusal to answer
the question and the witness may proceed.

Mrs. Posell. Thank you. First of all, the question you are asking
me is an invasion of my personal freedom, freedom of belief, freedom
of association, freedom of speech, and also my freedom to be silent.

I regard this as much as invasion of those freedoms as if you had
opened my ballot after I had voted.

As a certificated teacher I have already taken several oaths and
made affirmations as to my loyalty. When I received a teaching
credibility I swore to uphold and defend the Constitution. On becom-
ing a certificated teacher I again took the same oath.

In 1948 there was another loyalty reaffirmation given by the Log
Angeles City Board of Education, and in 1950 I took the State Lever-
ing oath. I don't feel this committee has any power to exact from
me any further oaths or expurgations or declarations.

Furthermore — this is my second point — as I understand it, the
purpose of this committee is to investigate subversive activities in
order to propose legislation to be considered by the Congress. Since
legislation pertaining to education in the State of California is exclu-
sively within the domain of the State, this committee has no power to
investigate or to inquire in area where it cannot legislate.

I refer you to the 1st, 9th, and 10th amendments of the Constitution.

This is my third point: As a teacher I have always felt keenly
about the Constitution and how it originated. I felt that my pupils
should know about it, should know how to uphold it and defend it.
I taught them they have certain rights and privileges and protections
under the Constitution.

Just this last Christmas my class gave, in lieu of a Christmas pro-
gram, a program on the Bill of Rights, in which they had a thorough
foundation and understanding of the Constitution.

I would be a very poor example of a teacher if I didn't do my
duty and invoke the Constitution to protect my rights as an individ-
ual and as a citizen living in our American democracy. This same

786 COaUVIUNIST activities in the LOS ANGELES AREA

Constitution, which I have sworn to support and defend, inchides in
it the fifth amendment, with the j)rovision that no American may be
compelled to bear witness against himself. And, of course, I must
assert that provision and do everything I can to prevent you repeal-
ing it.

And furthermore, gentlemen, I hope that the present international
developments will lead to a lasting i)eace, to a peace that will erase all
hatreds from everyone's heart, from all people's hearts, so we can
live together like brothers, and there will be no further need for this
committee. That is my statement.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. I have no further questions, INIr, Chairman.

Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Posell, I think, in view of your second reason,
if I may discuss that with you very briefly

(At this point Mrs. Posell conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

Mr. Doyle, You said this committee has no power to legislate
in the area of education. Well, that is correct. We are not under-
taking to investigate nor to legislate in the area of education. You
are quite right.

But, of course, we are authorized to investigate in the area of sub-
versive conduct, even though it happens to be employees of any area
of education. I just wanted to make that clear.

We don't claim that we have the right to legislate in the field of
education. The Federal Government doesn't so claim and never has
claimed.

We recognize, of course, the matter of education is a State and
local community problem. But that doesn't mean, and I wish to make
clear to a-ou on your second reason, that we recognize at all times that
we should not be barred as a national committee or a committee of the
National Congress from investigating subversive people or programs
or activities, even though it happens to be that they are paid by the
local taxpayers. I wanted to make that difference clear to you, in view
of your second reason.

Mr. Jackson. Mrs. Posell, you said during the course of your state-
ment, which you read, that 3'ou have taken a number of oaths. Is that
correct ?

Mrs. Posell. Yes.

Mr. Jackson. Did any of those oaths state that you were not now
nor had ever been a member of any organization dedicated to the
overthrow of the Government by force and violence?

(At this point Mrs. Posell conferred with ISIr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mrs. Posell. I wouldn't like to answer that question unless I saw
the oath itself, because that was a long time ago and I would like
to read it first, before I give an answer.

Mr. Jackson. I believe the Levering oath was passed by the people
of the State of California last November. AVhen did you take it?

Mrs. Posell. 1950.

Mr. Jackson. 1950?

JSIrs. Posell. Yes.

Mr. Jackson. You do not recall whether that contained an affii-ma-
tive statement that you are not now nor have you ever been a member
of the Communist Party ?

Mrs. Posell. I do not recall.

COMIVrUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 787

Mr. Taat^xxer. Would you take such an oath as required by the
authorities of the State of California?

Mrs. PosELL, I would not like to answer that question. I have
taken all of these oaths.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, that is hardly responsive to the question.
However, I shall not belabor the point. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused ?

Mr. Ta\'E]s:ner. No, sir.

Mr. Jackson. The witness will be excused.

Mr. Tavenner. Call Mr. Looschen.

Mr. Jackson. Raise your right hand and be sworn.

You solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
this connnittee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Looschen. I do.

Mr. Jackson. Sit down, please.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN LOOSCHEN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,

BEN MARGOLIS

Mr. Ta\'i:nner. What is your name, sir ?

Mr. Looschen. John Looschen.

Mr. Ta\t2nner. Will you s})ell your last name, please?

Mr. Looschen. L-o-o-s-c-h-e-n.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Looschen ?

Mr. Looschen. Born in Dodge County, Nebr., 1899.

Mr. Tav'^nner. Where do you reside?

Mr. Looschen. Los Angeles County.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Los Angeles County is rather indefinite. What
area ?

Mr. Looschen. The Malibu area.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation?

Mr. Looschen. I am a general building contractor.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal education and training has been?

IVIr. Doyle. Is he represented by counsel?

Mr. Ta\tenner. I am afraid I omitted to ask that question. Are
you accompanied by counsel ?

Mr. Looschen. Yes, I am.

Mr. Tavenner. Will Mr. Looschen's counsel please identify himself
for the record ?

Mr. Margolis. M-a-r-g-o-l-i-s, Ben Margolis.

Mr. Looschen. I went to grammar school and high school.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Wliere?

Mr. Looschen. High school in Pomona, grammar school most of
the time in Pomona. I guess a year or two here in Los Angeles.

Mr. Ta\t.nner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles County ?

Mr. Looschen. Since 1905.

Mr. Ta\-enner. What has been the nature of your employment since
1934?

Mr. Looschen. On the payroll of Twentieth Century-Fox Studio
up until 1945. I might have been away from there for short periods
of time once in a while.

788 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Tavenner. When did your employment begin with Fox
Studio?

Mr. LooscHEN. I can't say exactly. Probably 1928.

Mr. Tavexner. What was the nature of your employment?

Mr. LooscHEN. Carpenter, carpenter- foreman part of the time.

Mr. Tavenner. Now, were you what was known as a backstage
worker? Was that the general classification?

Mr. LoosCHEN. I guess that would be all right. I didn't know
there was any particular classification about it.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Looschen, do you know of or have any knowl-
edge as to whether there was a group of persons banded together as a
group of Communist Party members within the Fox Studio unit com-
posed of persons who had the same general classification of work as
yours ?

Mr. Looschen. I will have to decline to answer that question. My
reasons are not too difficult, I think, to understand. It should be clear
enough to anybody, that if all the witnesses who have been called up
before this committee had cooperated with the idea — with the com-
mittee— I believe in that case that the fifth amendment, excuse me,
the Bill of Rights, would be a thing of the past and for that reason,
that personal reason, I refuse to answer the question.

I think the question interferes with my rights of free speech, free-
dom of thought, freedom to read what publications I desire, and in-
quires into my ideas illegally.

Also I think it violates my rights under the fourth amendment and
the sixth amendment.

I decline to answer, citing the privilege of the fifth amendment
not to be a witness against myself.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been a member of the Com-
munist Party group or unit composed of workers from the Fox
Studio unit?

Mr. Looschen. That is the same question and my answer is the
same.

Mr. Jackson. And for the same reason ?

Mr. Looschen. The same reason, yes.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chainnan.

Mr. Doyle. No questions.

Mr. Jackson. Any reason why the witness should not be excused?

Mr. Tavenner. No.

Mr. Jackson. It is so ordered. Call your next witness.

Mr. Ta\T3nner. Mr. Albert.

Mr. Jackson. Please raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?

Mr. Albert. I do.

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please.

TESTIMONY OF SAM ALBERT, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Albert. May I ask counsel if my attorneys may interrogate
the witnesses who appeared against me ?

Mr. Tavenner. You will have to address your request to the chair-
man.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 789

Mr. Albert. Pardon me.

Mr. Jackson. As I stated on several other occasions heretofore, it
is not in accord with the rules of the House of Representatives
or of the standing committees of the House to cross-examine wit-
nesses.

If you have a prepared statement which you wish the committee to
consider we will be happy to receive it.

Mr. Albert. No, I do not have a prepared statement.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please, sir ?

Mr. Albert. My name is Sam Albert.

Mr. Tavenner, Will you spell your last name ?

Mr. Albert. A-1-b-e-r-t.

Mr, Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel?

Mr, Albert, Yes, I am.

Mr, Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the
record ?

Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.

Mr. Esterman. William B. Esterman.

Mr. Tavenner. When and wliere were jou born, Mr. Albert?

Mr. Albert. I was born in Norfolk, Va., December 23, 1903.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?

Mr. Albert. I am a musician.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state to the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been and preparation for your voca-
tion?

Mr, Albert. Yes. I had the equivalent of about three and a half
years of high school and then I studied at the Eoyal Academy of
Music, from which I graduated, in Budapest.

Mr. Tavenner. When were you graduated in Budapest ?

Mr. Albert, In 1927,

Mr, Tavenner, Will you describe for the committee a little more
fully what is the nature of your work? It has been the work of a
musician?

Mr. Albert. Yes. I have been a working musician, a violinist, for
25 years in the city of Los Angeles. I am identified with the cultural
life of this community find I am very proud of it.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles ?

Mr, Albert. I have lived in Los Angeles since 1927,

Mr, Tavenner, Mr, Albert, during the course of the hearings con-
ducted by the committee in this area, Mr, Martin Berkeley appeared
as a witness. He testified on September 19, 1951, that he had been a
member of the Communist Party from 1936 to 1943, and during the
course of the testimony he identified you as a person known to him
to have been a member of the Communist Party,

My first question is, was he correct in his identification of you as a
member of the Conununist Party ?

(At this point Mr, Albert conferred with Mr, Esterman,)
Mr, Albert. Would it be possible to have Mr. Berkeley come here
and testify so that my attorneys could cross-examine him ?

Mr. Tavenner. That is the same question which you asked the chair-
man a few minutes ago.

Mr. Jackson. I will give the same answer to the question. If the
statement or the allegations are false, the simplest thing in the world
for you to do is say, "IS'o, it is not the truth."

790 COIVUVIUXIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Albert. Do you decline to answer mj' question?

Mr. Jackson. You have no standing so far as questions are con-
cerned. Let me make that clear. You are here to answer questions
based upon information which we have which indicates that you have
had association with the Communist Party.

Mr. Albert. In other words, you say that it is impossible for me
to interrogate those people who have accused me?

Mr. Jackson. At the present momer.t I don't know who those peo-
ple are myself, aside from Mr. Berkeley. However, you are privileged
to say Mr. Berkeley is a liar, that it is false, and thereby you can cer-
tainly place yourself on record as disassociating yourself with the
Communist Party.

Mr. Albert. Well, Mr. Jackson, I will give my own answers.

Mr. Jackson. Very well; let us get along to them, tlien.

Mr. Albert. I decline to answer that question, sir, and I hope you
will bear with me because I am a musician. I am not as articulate
as many of the wonderful people who have appeared here before you.

I decline to answer this question because you are inquiring into my
right of association, into my right to think, to read, and to act as an
American.

And I have acted as an American, a free American, for nearly 50
years, and I hope that I will be able to continue to act so.

But, as a musician, I feel things perhaps a little 'bit more intensely
than other people, and I feel that this committee has created an at-
mosphere in America of fear and intimidation which reacts not only
upon me but on every American.

There are 15,000 musicians in the local, in the musicians' local in
Los Angeles. There are 3,000 who are possibly working and the
right — I must read part of this, of the first of it — to petition being one
of the riiost important rights I think in the Constitution and is iDeing
infringed by this atmosphere which is being created by the committee.

I think people are actually afraid to get up and petition for what
they think is right.

May I have some water, please ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes, indeed.

Mr. Albert. Thank you very much.

There are many grievances that musicians have, but within that
atmosphere they don't express them, just the concept, which is a
prevalent one in America, and I am sure this committee is conscious
of that — "Don't say that, you will be called a name." That is a very
common saying today, and I think it is a disgrace upon American
freedom to even have this concept creep into American thought.

Mr. EsTERMAN. Put it on the table if you want to.

Mr. Albert. It is my notes. ]My other reasons are that, since this
committee has not seen fit to allow me to cross-examine the witness
who has made accusations, I will decline on the basis of the sixth
amendment — and also within that sixth amendment the amendment
states tliat the right to a speedy and public trial is part of the Ameri-
can Constitution.

I have waited around here for nearly a year to appear before this
committee. Certainly there can be nothing sinister about a person who
is allowed to partici])ate in a community for an entire year without
bothering, after having given him a subpena, to have him appear
before this committee.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 791

I also decline, of course, on the fifth amendment — on all of the
fifth amendment — and finally I decline on the basis of the ninth and
tenth amendments, which state that those rights not specifically given
to the Federal Government and to the States are given to the people.

I have lived in this community since 192T, 1 am not a fly-by-night
character. I give the privilege of thinking whatever they want to
think about me to the people of Los Angeles. Let them judge me,
those people who know me.

Mr. Jacksox. Does that complete your reasons ?

Mr. Albert. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. xllbert, the committee has information that
there was a group of the Communist Party established here in Los
Angeles composed exclusively of imisicians. Were you a member of
such a group ?

(At this point ]\Ir. Albert conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

Mr. Albert. May I know where you got this information, sir?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.

Mr. Albert. Well, then, I decline to answer on the previously stated

grounds

Mr. Tavexxer. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. Doyle. I think I do have a couple of questions, Mr. Albert.

Naturally, as an American, I want to congratulate you upon your
achievements in the musical world, graduating from German and
Budapest conservatories.

Mr. Albert. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Doyle. And I wish to say very frankly that I can understand
how you as a musician, a cultured musician and expert violinist for
some 25 or 30 years in Los Angeles, would perhaps, as you say, feel
more intensely than some other person. I can understand tliat.

Now, we are here — this subcommittee is here — under Public Law
601. Were you in the hearing room and heard a previous discussion
of that?

Mr. Albert. Yes ; I did.

Mr. Doyle. I don't want to take your time nor the committee's
time to restate it, if you were here and heard it. I thought I saw
you. So, you are aware of the text of that public law.

Now, being as how we are here under Public Law 601 of the United
States Congress on an express responsibility to investigate the ex-
tent and the origin of subversive activities in the United States, of
course that means in the Conmiunist Party or any other group. It
may not be confined to just the Communist Party. There may be other
subversives. No doubt there are.

But you criticize the function of this committee. It is a commit-
tee of your United States Congress. Have you any suggestions of
what the United States Congress could do to investigate the extent
of the activities of the Comnmnist Party in the United States except
by a committee ? How would you go about it ?

Mr. Albert. Well, Mr. Doyle, I am a musician. I realize that I am
up here under oath and am under subpena. I am not as articulate as
I could be, and I do not know the law as you do. I would be very
glad to discuss this subject and any subject, perhaps, with you. There
are subjects that I know a little better than you do, perhaps.

31747—53 — pt. 4 6

792 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

I would be very glad to discuss them outside of this committee room.
But I am at a disadvantage sitting up here before this committee.
You can make whatever statements you wish and I cannot. I am
limited in my statements.

Mr. Doyle. I intended my question to be fair.

Mr. Albert. I realize that. 1 appreciate that.

Mr. Doyle. Do you feel the question is fair?

Mr. Albert. It is a fair question, but I don't think this is my forum.
I cannot answer this question here because there are too many legal
aspects to this thing which as a musician I do not understand and I
cannot participate in on an equal basis with you.

Mr. Doyle. Well, I certainly don't Avant you to feel that you are
placed in a position unfavorable and unfair to you. Of course, I
recognize you have able counsel to advise you.

Mr. Albert. Perhaps they could answer the question.

Mr. Marshall. Will be glad to.

Mr. Doyle. They are not qualified to be witnesses before this com-
mittee.

Mr. Esterman. You thought so last fall.

Mr. Doyle. But I was wondering as long as you do have your sev- ~
eral reasons written down as to why

Mr. Albert. No, sir, I didn't have any reasons written down. This
is the Constitution of the United States. It is one sheet of paper.

Mr. Doyle. Then I realized you said you had been subpenaed for
about a year.

Mr. Albert. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. And I am looking for a helpful answer from you, sir,
as an unusual person, because you do represent cultural life.

Mr. Albert. Well, Mr. Doyle, the only thing that I can think of is
that this committee dissolve itself, because I think that the atmosphere
which has been created in America is not conducive to a continuing
free speech and atmosphere of broadening.

Mr. Doyle. Well, you say dissolve itself. How then shall the
United States Congress, which has found under Public Law 831 that
there is a worldwide Communist movement, which is an international
conspiracy, how then shall the United States Congress fulfill its obli-
gation to protect the American people against the international con-
spiracy ? What shall we do as Congressmen ?

Mr. Albert. Mr. Doyle, I have lived in the United States even
when there was no committee in existence, and 1 think we had a good
country. I think under President Roosevelt we had a broadening of
the democratic principles in America and before the committee was
organized.

I don't think that it is absolutely necessary to have a committee in
order to have a democratic America.

Mr. Doyle. Now, do you agree with Congress in its declaration in
Public Law 831 that there does exist a worldwide Connnunist move-
ment which is a conspiracy against the American Avay of life as we
have it? Do you agree with Congress on that declaration?

(At this point JMr. Albert conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

J\Ir. Albert. AVell, JNIr. Doyle, I don't know how to answer this ques-
tion. It is a legal question and it is one that I as a musician find very
diflicult to answer.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA 793

(At this point Mi*. Albert conferred witli Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Doyle. I wish to say that I do not agree with you. It is not
a legal question. I asked you whether or not you agreed with that
declaration of Congress in connection with which this committee is
here functioning ?

Mr. Albert. Well, Mr. Doyle

Mr. Doyle. Now, if you say the committee should be dissolved, that
is pretty good evidence that you have thought seriously about the
problem. Now, how else would you handle the problem? Perhaps
you think there is no problem. But if you do think there is a Commu-
nist conspiracy to overthroAv this form of government by force and
violence, we would like to have your answer.

But if you do not think there is such a conspiracy, then I can under-
stand your answer.

(At this point Mr. Albert conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Albert. Mr. Doyle, I think perhaps the best way would be to
turn it over to the law-enforcement forces in America and let them
handle the situation. As far as the rest of it is concerned, I say I
am at a disadvantage in speaking with you. You are a lawyer. I am a
musician. I cannot use legal terminology and I am here under
subpena. I am here under oath. I have to watch every word that I
say, and I cannot speak freely as I would like to speak about this.
Under other circumstances I would probably be a little more eloquent
about this, but I can't now.

Mr. Doyle. I am glad you feel my questions are fair. I will not
press them any further.

Mr. Albert. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Jackson. Is that all, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. Doyle. Yes.

Mr, Jackson. Just several comments that I would like to make with
respect to the statement that was made by the witness. I would like to
have it made crystal clear we are not attempting to inquire into your
thought processes. We are not attenij^ting to inquire into youf
personal activities, or your religious faith.

You have been asked questions regarding one aspect, which is within
the proper scope of this committee to inquire about. And that is your
alleged associations with the Communist Party. That is the only area
in which we have any desire to delve.

Mr. Albert. Mr. Jackson, the whole atmosphere in America, I
think, and this is obvious to you, every American within the last 10
years has changed considerably.

I think this is a commentary on the things that have happened in
America, that they just haven't happened without anything going on,
and I think this committee is partly responsible for this.

Mr. Jackson. If there is any hysteria throughout the country, the
hysteria is not with the committee. The hysteria is with a lot of peo-
ple waving their arms and beating their breasts and crying out about
civil rights. This same hysteria has been the destruction of every civil
right for many free people who once enjoyed them. If there is
hysteria, it is not with the committee.

I think the committee has conducted itself with notable absence of
hysteria. And, incidentally, when it comes to name-calling, if you

794 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

or any witness is subjected to one-tenth of the names that have been
used to describe the members of this committee, then you would have
some justification for your statement.

Mr. Albert. I did not describe the committee, members of the
committee, as calling names.

Mr. Jackson. You didn't. You said there was name-calling going
on. We have developed a certain immunity to that in the com-
mittee.

You said we had a democratic country a few years ago. I say there
was a tremendous espionage ring in Washington during the period to
which you refer as a "democratic" era, an espionage ring — stealing
secret information from our Government and transmitting it to agents
of the Soviet Union. That is certainly not an expression of a healthy
situation.

Mr. Albert. Mr. Jackson, I hope you don't imply that you are
assuming I am part of any of the things you have just said.

Mr. Jackson. I say no economy, no nation can be safe where a thing
of that sort is going on. I am not suggesting you were in any way
implicated.

Mr. Albert. Thank you, Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. You were asked a question, whether you are a mem-
ber of the Communist Party and you declined to answer. There is no
accusation intended, other than that.

(At this point Mr. Albert conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

Mr. Tavenner. The specific question, as to whether he is a member
of the Communist Party, was not asked.

I would like to ask him now : Are you a member of the Communist
Party?

(At this point Mr. Albert conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

Mr. Albert. Isn't that the same question you asked me before, sir ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.

Mr. Albert. Well, I give you the same answer. I incorporate all
of the statements that I made before, all of them, into the answer.

(At this point Mr. Albert conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?

Mr. Albert. I refuse to answer this question on the same gi'ounds.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.

I should like to read into the record at this point, in order there
may be a clear understanding of the facts, that the Federal Bureau
of Investigation and the House Committee on Un-American Activities
perform two separate functions. This is best testified to in the words
of J. Edgar Hoover, the Director of the Bureau, who stated in 1947,
and I quote :

There is no area of duplication or of overlapping in the work performed by the
FBI and the House Committee on Un-American Activities. This is best indicated
by the words of Mr. Hoover, himself.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 795

"The aims and the responsibility of the House Committee and the FBI are the
same — protection of the Internal security of the Nation. The methods whereby
this goal may be accomplished differ, however. I have always felt that the great-
est contribution this committee could make is the public disclosure of the forces
that menace America."

The committee will stand in adiourimient at this time until 9 : 30
a. m., on tomorrow.

(Whereupon, at 4 : 30 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 9 : 30
a. m., Wednesday, April 8, 1953.)

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES AREA— Part 4

WEDNESDAY. APRIL 8, 1953

United Sta'tos House of Representatives,

Committee on Un-American Activities,

Los Angeles^ Calif.

PUBLIC HEARINGS

The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to ad-
journment, at 9 : 40 a. m., in room 518, Federal Building, Hon. Don-
ald L. Jackson (acting, chairman) presiding.

Committee members present: Representatives Donald L. Jackson
(acting chairman) and Clyde Doyle.

Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; Thomas
W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk ; and William A. Wheeler, investigator.

Mr. Jackson. The committee will please be in order.

Pursuant to the authority contained in Public Law 601, the chair-
man of the Connnittee on Un-American Activities has appointed a
subcommittee of two members, Mr. Doyle and Mr. Jackson. The
Chair will again ask the cooperation of the audience in refraining
from any expression of approval or disapproval or audible comments
of any kind.

Who is your first witness, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Murry Wagner.

Mr. Jackson. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?

Mr. Wagner. I do.

TESTIMONY OF MURRY WAGNER/ ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,

DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Wagner. Murry Wagner.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Wagner. Yes; I am.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself?
Mr. Marshall. Daniel C. Marshall.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Wagner ?
Mr. Wagner. I was born in Brooklyn, N. Y., in December 1914;
December 17, 1914.

^ This witness uses both spellinjrs. M-u-r-i-y and M-ii-r-r-a y Wapner.

797

798 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Tavexxf.r. Wliere do you now reside?

Mr. AVagner. I reside in Van Niiys, Calif.

Mr. Tavenxer. How long have yon lived in California?

Mr. Wagner. Since August of 1938,

Mr. Tamsnner. '\Aniat is your occupation?

Mr. Wagner. I do radio announcing.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has consisted of?

Mr. Wagner. The elementary and high schools of New York City.
Education at the college level in the public colleges of New York City,
and some work at the extension

Mr. Ta\^nner. What colleges in New York City?

Mr. Wagner. Brooklyn College, College of the City of New York,
UCLA extension division. M}- college education has extended over
a period of about 11 years, chronologically. I was never able to quite
get a degree because my work was all gotten at niglit, supplementary
to m}^ working for a living.

(At this point Mr. AVagner conferred with Mr. Marshall.)

Mr. Wagner. Also, I might add I took a year of legal education at
Loyola University here in Los Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefl}^ what
your record of employment has been since 1938 ?

Mr. Wagner. Since 1938 I have worked in various business jobs
and also have worked as a radio actor and announcer, mostly in com-
mercial fields.

Mr. Tavicnner. Mr. Wagner, during the course of the hearings a
witness by the name of Dwight Hauser appeared before the commit-
tee on March 30. In the course of his appearance before the com-
mittee he was asked to tell the committee how he became a member
of the Communist Party.

This is his reply : ^

I presume that in many discussions I had uiiule my position as a liberal fairly
clear, and apparently it was felt that I would be receptive to the aims as stated
to me at the time.

A very good friend of mine, whose character and ideals I admired, whose intel-
lectual capabilities impressed me, talked to me about this and asked me if I
wouldn't like to associate myself with a group of people who were of the same
opinions as I.

I wonder if it might not be iiossil)le to pass over this man's name for the
moment, because tliis is a man who left the party at about the same time I did
and for the same reasons that I did.

At that point T interrupted hiin and said : ^

You may pass it over for the moment. In other words, I will ask you then
before you leave the witness stand more in detail.

And later in the course of his testimony I asked this witness this
question :

Are you acquainted with a person by the name of Murray Wagner?

Mr. Hauser said, "Yes."
And my question was :

Was he a member of this group?

And that was a group of the Communist Party which Mr. Hauser
had described.

^ lTivef?tipration of Comnunist Activities iu the Lo sAngeles Area — Part 3, p. 626.
== Ibid., p. QRS.

COMACUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 799

His answer was :

He is the one that I spoke of earlier. He is the man who recrnited nie and
who left the party, I believe, before I did, to my knowledge.

And the next question was :

If he left the party before you did, at about what time did he leave the party,
Mr. Hanser?

And his answer was :

I believe he was called into the Army sometime in 1044; and whcni he oanie
back from the Army, it would have been after I left the i)arty. He came to
my home and told me how disturbed he was over the turn of events. It was my
understanding at that time that he had determined to sever his connection with
the party.

I haven't seen a great deal of him since then, but, to my knowledge, that was
his intention at that time.

NoAv, I would like to ask you, Mr. Wagner, if that testimony of
Mr. Hauser is in accordance with the facts relating to you.

(Ac this point Mr. Wagner conferred with Mr. Marshall.)

Mr, Wagner. Mr. Tavenner, this is a broad, broad question. I
decline to answer it.

Mr. Tavenner. On what do you base your refusal to answer the
question ?

Mr. Wagner. I base my refusal on

Mr. Tavenner. Let me put the question this way: Wliat legal
grounds do you have as a basis for your refusal to answer the question?

Mr. Wagner. Well, I have not only legal grounds but I have moral
grounds ; I have grounds of scruples.

Mr. Ta\tenner. Legal grounds are the only grounds which would
entitle you to refuse to answer the question.

Mr. Wagner. All right. I shall be pleased to give you my legal
grounds. I decline to answer this question because, first, I submit
you have no right to ask it. I decline because I stand upon the right
to decline granted me bj^ that section of the fifth amendment which
says that I shall not be compelled to be a witness against myself.

I decline based upon the sixth amendment, which grants me the
right to be confronted with witnesses against me. And I rather think
that I shall rely somewhat on the first amendment, which has to do
with the freedom of associations, freedom of speech, freedom of
friendship, et cetera, all of which frtedoms you know about, I am
sure.

Mr. Jackson. Do you so rely on the first amendment, Mr. Wagner?
You say you think you rely somewhat on it. Is it your position
that you are relying on the first amendment ?

Mr. Wagner. Oh, yes; my reliance is unequivocally and complete
and sincere.

Mr. Jackson. Yery well.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Wagner. May I point out, sir, I wish to make my reliance
very clear. My reliance is on the first and on the fifth completely.
I don't wish to sever the two. I think they are interdependent.

Mr. Jackson. Do you have any further questions ?

Mr. Tavenner. No further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ?

Mr. Doyle. No.

800 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Jacksox. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused ?

Mr. Tavexxkk. No, sir.

Mr. Jacksox. You are excused.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Robert Wachsnuiu.

Mr. Jacksox. In order tliat the public information media may be
kept informed to the jrreatest extent possible of the actions of this
committee, botli in and out of executive sessions, the chairman wishes
to state tliat the subcommittee last night took testimony from Mr.
Jerome Robinson, a resident of North Hollywood, Calif., who is a
connnercial ]:)hotographer.

Investigation by this committee indicated Mr. Robinson was a mem-
ber of the Northwest section of the Communist Party in 1944. He
declined to answer, giving as his reason that section of the fifth
amendment to the Constitution which makes it unnecessary for a
witness to answer questions which may be of an incriminating nature.

Mr. Marshall. With respect to the person whose name counsel
just called [Robert "Wachsman], I represent that person, and I don't
think the records will show ]iersonal service of any subpena upcti
him. However, he received a telegram from the committee, and ^
have this to say, that if the committee wishes him here, I can get hinri
here within the next hour or so, upon the understanding, however,
that when he appears liere at the committee room that he is not doing
so voluntarily and it will be with the understanding that he will be
served with a subpena before he enters the witness room.

Is that satisfactory, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. Tavexxer. That is satisfactory unless he has already been
served with a subpena.

Mr. Marshall. Our position is he has not been served.

Mr. Jacksox. Is that satisfactary, Mr, Tavenner?

Mr. Tavexxer. Yes.

Mr. Jacksox. Do you have another witness, Mr, Tavenner?

Mr. Taa-exxer. Yes, sir. Mr. Bernard Skadron.

Mr. Jacksox. Do j^ou solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you Ciod ?

Mr. Skadron. Yes.

TESTIMONY OF BERNARD SKADRON, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUN-
SEL, WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Ta\"exxer. Wliat is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Skadrox'. I would like to testify when the photographers are
through.
Mr. Tavexxer. That is all right. I thought they liad finished.
What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Skadron. Bernard Skadron.

Mr. Tavexxer. Will you spell your first and last name?
Mr. Skadron. B-e-r-n-a-r-d S-k-a-d-r-o-n.
Mr. Tavexxer. Are you

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA 801

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel, Mr. Skadron?

Mr. Skadron. I am.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?

Mr. Esterman. Mr. Daniel G. Marshall, who left the room for a
moment.

Mr. Tavenner. "Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Skadron?

Mr. Skadron. AVould you please ask them to stop that [indicating
the photographers] ? I would rather concentrate on what I am saying,
rather than

Mr. Jackson. I am sure the press photographers will cooperate,
and they might come up during the course of your testimony and take
pictures.

JNIr. Skadron. They can take all they want to,

Mr. Tavenner. Will you adjust the microphone in front of you?
We can hardly hear you.

Mr. Skadron. I think the question was when and where was I born?

Mr. Ta\^nner. Yes.

Mr. Skadron. Williston, N. Dak., in May 1913.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?

Mr, Skadron. Los Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles?

Mr. Skadron. Approximately 20 years.

Mr. Tavenner. WTiat is your occupation ?

Mr. Skadron. Public accountant.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?

Mr. Skadron. Grammar school, high school, Crane College in Chi-
cago, additional work at UCLA here.

Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell the committee, please, what the general
nature of your employment has been in Los Angeles ?

Mr. Skadron. It has generally been, with the exception of a few
odd jobs during the depression, self -employment, my own practice.

Mr, Tavenner. Mr. Skadron, a person by the name of Sol Shor
has made a statement under oath that he was a member of the Com-
munist Party at one time in Hollywood, and that he first joined the
Communist JParty in 1938, and subsequently left the party.

He further testified that after attending a few Communist Party
study courses he was assigned to a Communist Party unit. And
he identified you as having been a member of that unit of the Com-
munist Party.

Were you a member of the Communist Party in Los Angeles at any
time?

Mr. Skadron. Mr. Tavenner, would you have somebody spell that
name for me ?

Mr. Tavenner. The first name is S-o-1. The last name is S-h-o-r.

Mr. Skadron. AVhen are some of those dates? You say in 1938?

Mr. Tavenner. He testified that he joined the Communist Party
in 1938.

Mr, Skadron. And he said that I had something to do with that?

Mr. Tavenner. He said you were a member of the Communist
Party.

Mr. Skadron. Wliat is your question specifically ?

Mr. Tavenner. Whether it is true or not that you were a member
of the Communist Party unit in Los Angeles.

802 COMINIUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Sksdron. That is a separate question and has nothing to do
with this Sol Shor?

Mr. Tavenner. Only to this extent, that I have given you the in-
formation that the connnittee has. My question now is whether or not
3^ou were a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Skadron. I see. The information was the basis for the question ?

Mr. Tavenner. Will you just answer the question?

Mr. Skadron. Yes. I am going to decline to answer that question.
I have got printed notes, too.

Mr, Tavenner. If you decline to answer the question, will you
state what legal grounds, if any, you have as the basis for your
refusal ?

Mr. Skadron, I will state all the grounds I have. They will be
legal or whatever you intepret them as being, but there will be a
number of grounds.

Mr. Tavenner. But the legal grounds are the only ground that
would be material to the question.

Mr. Skadron. I am aware of that.

Mr. Tavenner. But you want to make a speech, whether it is ma-
terial or not to the point ?

Mr. Skadron. No speech. The question of whether grounds are
legal or not is a legal matter to be judged by legal minds, through
courts, through judges. I am not a legal person. I cannot judge . I
have heard witnesses told

Mr. Ta\t.nner. Possibly the chairman then can advise you.

Mr. Skadron. It is based on legal grounds out of our very legal
Constitution.

Mr. Jackson. If the witness goes too far afield in his explanation,
the Chair will

Mr. Skadron. It will stay very close to the Constitution.

Mr. Jackson. Let us hope so.

Mr. Skadron. Well, my first legal ground is that the first amend-
ment prohibits any sort of inquiry to anybody's mind or thoughts or
feelings. I feel this committee recognizes that.

It is true these committee members have said they are not search-
ing minds. However, there seems to be a contradiction to me, because
I am being asked to search my ow^n mind and give the results of that
search to this committee. I can't see where it makes any difference.

Therefore, on the basis of the first amendment, I am going to say
no, I will not search my mind and give those thoughts to this
committee.

As an accountant, I look at the fourth amendment maybe a little
differently than the average person. I spend my life protecting real
property for clients, money which is real property, and since I sell the
results of my mind, the services which come out of my thoughts, my
real property is my thoughts, my mind, my service.

I think this committee is trying to search my real property, my
brain, my mind. And I also think that the connnittee has no real
purpose — agiJ.in, this is being on the fourth amendment — a separate
reason, not quite stated in the Constitution, but I believe this com-
mittee, from a business standpoint

Mr. Jackson. Your opinion as to what this committee is attempting
to do is in no way pertinent to your constitutional grounds for re-
fusing to answer the question.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 803

Mr. Skadron. I don't know about that.

Mr. Jackson. If you can relate it even remotely to it, the committee
will go along with 3011 and give you every opportmiity. But your
personal opinion of this committee is of absolutel}^ no value.

Mr. Skadron. I am not speaking of the persons or the personalities
of the committee. I am speaking of what I consider the business
which I, along with other people in this country, own, that is, the
United States Government. I was just looking at it as a business-
man, and I was going to speak, not of the personalities of the com-
mittee, but of the functions of the committee, and where I think they
are illegal.

Mr. Jackson. All right. Although the question has been ruled
upon-

Mr. Skadron. 1 will check with my attorney for the legal

Mr. Jackson- The question as to the legality of the committee has
lono^ since been ruled upon by a much higher tribunal than any other
in the country, by the Congress of the United States. The legality of
the committee, I believe, is above any question whatever.

Mr. Skadron. I don't question its legality,

Mr. Jackson. If you want to take issue with the Congress, go
ahead. That is your unquestioned right under the first amendment,
to unlimited freedom of speech. I hope you will limit it reasonably
within the next 10 minutes, if you can.

Mr. Skadron. You have taken a couple of weeks of my time. I
can swap it for 10 minutes of yours.

Mr. Jackson. Your predecessors on the stand have taken a con-
siderable amount of time.

Mr. Skadrdn. No

Mr. Jackson. Very well. Let's go on.

Mr. Skadron. Pardon me.

(At this point Mr. Skadron conferred with Mr, Esterman.)

Mr. Skadron. If you will forgive me, I will speak more as in a
business sense than as to legalit}', in front of the committee, and I
will sort of relax here a moment and discuss this as I would with a
client. I look at this committee as part of the function of a business
that we, all the people, including these gentlemen up here, who pay
their taxes, are running. Tlie moment we pay taxes we are all part-
ners with the Government. Therefore we have a say.

I think tli^ whole Constitution and concept is based on that. I
look at this committee and I have learned a lot about it, something to
the effect it has been in existence for 15 years, based on appropria-
tions I have noticed in the last few years, that there must be 3, 5, 10,
15 million dollars spent over the 15 years ; there is no doubt about it.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest

Mr. Jackson. If that is an example of your accounting, I would
suggest you'go to some more accurate sources for your figures. Your
figures are entirely disproportionate to the facts.

Mr. Sk.\dron. Mr. Jackson, I would like to ask you. Could you
tell me what the committee has spent in 15 years ?

Mr. Jackson. The committee this year, by a vote of 315 to 2, I
believe, received the largest appropriation in its history. That amount
was $300,000, It doesn't take much accounting to indicate over a
period of 15 years, if it had received that amount every year, it would
have received nothing near that figure you have set.

804 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Ml'. Skadron. Say, $414 million.

Mr. Jackson. That is a considerable difference. I want the facts on
the record as to that.

Mr. Skadron. I said 3 or 4 or 5, maj^be 10 million.

Mr. Jackson. It is my feelinji; if it had spent 5 or 10 or 15 million
it would have been very well spent.

Mr. Skadron. I am not questioning

Mr. Jackson. Let's get back to the business discussion of

Mr. Skadron. I would like to ask you, are part of the salaries of
the Congressmen charged off into this fund ? They should be prorated,
you know.

Mr. Doyle. You know better than that. I ask the witness to stick
to facts in giving his reasons for declining to answer.

You apparently came here to make a speech — a public speech. We
understand that. But please confine yourself, if you have reasons to
decline to answer, state them.

Mr. Skadron. That is a fair request. It is very fair.

Mr. DoYi.E. You have sat here 2 or 3 weeks listening to the com-
mittee and know all about it. Please give us your answers.

Mr. Skadron. Well, I have listened to the committee for 2 or 3
weeks, I think the committee ought to listen to me for 15 minutes.

Mr. Doyle. You have had a good education.

Mr. Skadron. Excellent, excellent.

Mr. Jackson. Proceed.

Mr. Skadron. I will cut the point down and say, even on the basis
of $4 million, if I were running a business and a group of men were
to work for 15 years with the small amount of results, based on Public
Law 601, that has been shown, I would fire them and get a new group
and say, "Ti-y it a different M'ay," because I don't think this committee
has done a good business job in spending the taxpayers' money.

It is now down to, as far as I can see, something called an unem-
ployment committee, that unemploys anybody that stands on their
rights under the Constitution.

Mr. Doyle. Of course, Mr.

Mr. Skadron. I am going

Mr. Doyle (continuing) . Chairman, I want to counter this witness'
statement with the statement that his is absolutely a false statement,
and I think you know it to be false, Mr. Witness.

(At this point Mr. Skadron conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

A[r. Doyle. I am not going to sit here as a United States Congress-
man and take your insults, which I don't have to. You understand
that.

Mr. Skadron. I understand, Mr. Doyle, and I will say this : Don't
you think you represent the coitmiittee — there must be dozens and
dozens of men. I am not sending this at you or Mr. Jackson.

Mr. DoYiJE. I didn't ask to serve on this conmiittee. I was placed
upon this committee.

Mr. Skadron. I will take that into consideration. I am not saying
you have been on it for 15 years or run it for 15 years.

Mr. Ta\'Enner. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt for a moment?

Mr. Jackson. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Nothing has been said by this witness in the past
10 minutes that has anvtiiinir whatsoever to do with anv lejral arounds

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 805

for his refusal to answer the question, and 1 tliink lie should be
directed to answer the question or be excused.

Mr. Skadkon. Mr. Tavenner, I have got my reasons that will come
up very soon, and you will have it. I just wanted to make this point,
because I look at things from a standpoint of the gentlemen who want
to take pictures. I look at things from the standpoint of efficiency
in business.

Mr. Doyle. Then give some evidence of it, please, by sticking to the
subject matter before you.

Mr. Skadkox. Let us stick to the business that should be before you.
But the point^ — I say I have made my point; I think the committee
is not, as individuals — I am not after the individuals nor do I care
to say anything about the individuals. I say this committee as a
business, efficient organization has failed and should be dissolved.

Mr. Tavenner. The witness persists in not stating any legal grounds
for liis refusal to answer the question, and I, therefore, suggest that
he be excused.

Mr. Skadrox. Do you mean to say that I am not going to have my
opportunity to express my side of the case ?

Mr. Jackson. You have taken 10 minutes to say absolutely nothing
except that you stand upon the first amendment.

Mr. Skadron. Well, the first amendment is a big amendment.

Mr. Jackson. That is a very fine amendment ; and, if you are con-
tent to stand upon it, I am going to excuse you, unless you get to an-
other point that you may have in mind.

Mr. Skadron. In other words, I can pick other amendments now or
get off of the stand ?

Mr. Jackson. You may state whatever constitutional grounds you
have.

Mr. Skadron. Then we will move on from the first amendment.

Mr. Jackson. Move rapidly, please.

Mr. EsTERMAN. He isn't required to move rapidly.

Mr. Jackson. I will make the decisions as to whether he is re-
quired to move rapidly or not.

Mr. EsTERMAN. He isn't going to move rapidly.

Mr. Jackson, He is going to move or get off the stand. We have
now taken almost 15 minutes listening to an excoriation of the com-
mittee in general, the business practice of the United States Govern-
ment, where the Congress is wrong ; and I, for one, do not intend to go
on indefinitely listening to such irrelevant remarks.

Now, if you have other amendments or constitutional reasons why
you decline to answer, I wish you would get to them, and promptly,
if you please.

Mr. Skadron. Mr. Jackson, I understand you are in a hurry; but
you must understand that, if parties like the Democratic Party and
the Republican Party can criticize the running of the American Gov-
ernment and the use of tax money, then individuals can. I am an
individual and I have a right to criticize it, and I think a lot of money
has been wasted.

Mr. Jackson. You have done your criticizing. Now, let's go to
something else. Your criticism is entered on the record. You don't
like the committee. You don't like the way it operates, and it is a
business failure in your opinion.

Now will 3"ou proceed?

806 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Doyle, And you have made it clear you don't like the United
States Congress.
Mr. Skadron. I didn't say that.

Mr. Doyle. You don't like this committee and it is a creature of the
United States Congress.

Mr. Skadron. Look, Mr. Doyle

Mr. Jackson. Never mind.

Mr. Skadron. May I answer this? I don't want it in the record
that I don't like the American Congress.

Mr. Jackson. All right ; you like the American Congress. That is
in the record. Let us please get on to your constitutional reasons or
r shall excuse you.

Mr. Skadron. Pardon me a moment.

(At this point Mr. Skadron conferred with Mr. Esterman.)

Mr. Skadron. We have the first amendment in. I have another
reason which will make you gentlemen happy or unhappy, I don't
know which. And that is, I also decline on the basis of the lifth
amendment, the entire fifth amendment. I don't think we have to go
into breaking it down.

However, the fifth amendment has been broken down, and again,
as an accountant, I would like to break down slightly the fifth amend-
ment in a different way just as a matter of something I noticed.

I stand on it from the beginning to the end. It begins Avith the
word "no" and ends with the word "compensation." I wonder if the
committee got the idea of "no compensation" for the fifth amendment,
from this fifth amendment.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. There is not.

Mr. Jackson. Do you have any questions?

Mr. Doyle. No.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.

Mr. Skadron. It is clear that I stand on the first and fifth amend-
ments.

Mr. Esterman. Is the witness excused ?

Mr. Jackson. I have excused him. The witness is excused.

Call your next witness.

Mr. Tavenner. Virginia Mullen.

Mr. Esterman. I thought you were going to remove these people
who are making comments and remarks. They have been in the habit
of doing that for several days.

Mr. Jackson. I did not hear the remarks.

Mr. Esterman. Well, we heard them.

Mr. Jackson. However, the remarks that may have been addressed
by some member of the audience to the witness certainly have been no
more offensive than some of the remarks addressed by this witness to
the committee.

Mr. Esterman. It is obvious they are a part of your claque.

Mr. Jackson. It is not obvious they are a part of my claque. We
have no claques.

Mr. Esterman. You promised to remove these people.

Mr. Jackson. Who is your next witness ?

Mr. Tavenner. Virginia Mullen.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 807

Mr. Jackson. Mrs. Mullen, will you please stand? Do you sol-
emnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the committee
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?

Mrs. Mullen. I do.

Mr. Jackson. I will address my remarks, and particularly to the
area immediately in back of the witness stand. If there are any
further remarks, it will be necessary to clear the rows responsible. I
ask the cooperation of all the spectators in not making audible com-
ments. I hope that you will all cooperate with the committee in that
regard.

You may proceed.

TESTIMONY OF VIRGINIA MULLEN, ACCOMPANIED BY HEE COUN-
SEL, WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please ?

Mrs. Mullen. Virginia Mullen.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Mrs. Mullen. I am.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the
record ?

Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.

Mr. EsTERMAN. William B. Esterman.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you please tell the conmiittee where you were
born?

Mrs. Mullen. I was born in Kentucky in 1906.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you now reside ?

Mrs. Mullen. In Los Angeles. I have lived here for a;bout 17 years.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?

Mrs. Mullen. Since the age of 6 my chosen occupation has been
that of acting. It has been a rather sporadic career. For the last 15
years I have been both mother and father to two very fine sons and
this has necessitated my taking numerous jobs that I don't think you
would want to be bored with all the details of.

For the last 5 years, however, I have worked as an actress in motion
pictures, a character actress, a very unimportant one.

Mr. Tavenner. What are some of the principal productions in which
you have taken part ?

Mrs. Mullen. I cannot see the legislative purpose of this question.
It seems to me that you are just saying to the American Legion, "Go
and picket these pictures," since I had such a very small role in them
and rarely a screen credit. To do that would do them no good, and I
don't see the reason for naming these pictures.

Mr. Jackson. Does counsel believe this is material ?

Mr. Tavenner. No. I wanted to give the witness an opportunity
to fully develop her own background so the committee might under-
stand more about her. If she prefers not to mention them, I have
no particular purpose.

Mr. Jackson. Very well. The question is withdrawn.

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you what purports to be a pliotostatic copy
of an affidavit of registration to vote in the State of California, and I
ask that it be marked "Mullen Exhibit 1" for identification.

131747^53— ipt. 4 7

808 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Jackson. It will be so marked.

(The document referred to was marked "Mullen Exhibit No. 1"
for identification.)

Mr. Ta\t<:nner. Will you please examine it ?

(At this point Mrs. Mullen conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Esterman. Do you have the original, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mrs. Mullen. We can hardly read it.

Mr. Tavenner. No ; I do not.

Mr. Esterman. May we have access to it?

Mr. Ta\t:nner. We had access to it. I will just state that the docu-
ment will have to speak for itself.

Mr. Marshall. It is remaining very quiet here.

Mr. Easterman. Let us go out here where we can be alone.

Mr. Jackson. The committee will take a recess for 5 minutes, until
10 : 30.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken from 10 : 25 a. m. to 10 : 40 a. m.)

(After the recess, at 10 : 40 a. m., the proceedings were resumed, the
same parties being present.)

Mr. Jackson. Show a 10-minute recess was taken for a conference
between the witness and her counsel. They withdrew from the room.
Mrs. Mullen.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state, please, whether the signature to the
affidavit appears to be your signature ?

Mrs. Mullen. I believe that I have the right to see the original
document. I demand it.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please?

Mrs. Mullen. Well; am I going to see the original after I answer
this question ? '

Mv. Tavenner. Will you just answer the question?

Mrs. Mullen. Well, it seems I have a right to see it before.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that she be directed to
answer the question ?

Mr. Jackson. The witness is directed to answer whether or not the
signature appears to be hers.

Mrs. Mullen. I must state that I am shocked at tliis invasion into
my privacy, this invasion into the right to vote, and I am going to
decline to answer the question on the following grounds

Mr. Jackson. May I state that this is a public document, is it not?
This is a photostat of a public document ?

A registration to vote — my understanding is that it is not a secret
document; that I may go down and look at the ^reat register in the
hall of records at any time, or in the county registrar's office at any
time, to determine whether or not any given individual is registered
in any way.

Mr. Esterman. Did these gentlemen make a photostat?

Mr. Jackson. Is there a question as to the authenticity? Is it sug-
gested that perhaps the committee has in any way altered the docu-
ment ?

Mr. Esterman. It is suggested that under the law the witness has a
right to see original documents; that is what is suggested.

Mr. Jackson. Well, I might state for the record that, so far as I
am able to determine, the record is very clear from the standpoint
of legibility.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 809

Mr. Tavenner. Have you completed your answer ?

Mrs. MuiiLEN. No.

Mr. Jackson. The witness has declined to answer and was about to
state her reasons.

Mrs. Mullen. Yes, I am, I realize that this committee is not inter-
ested in my moral reasons, but I do have one basic one that I must give.
Dean Sayre expressed it so well for me. This is the bishop of the
Episcopal Catliedral in Washington, D. C, the faith in which I grew
up. I found the quotation on the back of a very fine pamphlet called
Courage Is Contagious.

He said that God is my judge, not the Attorney General's list, not
the American Legion, and not this body of gentlemen.

But I do also have to give my legal reasons, and I am very proud
to be able to stand here and defend the Constitution of the United
States.

In a recent television program, Sunday night when Mr. Clardy
was present, a gentleman spoke of people like myself as hiding behind
all the hogwash of the Constitution. To me it is not hogwash. That
is a document that guarantees to me the freedom to worship where I
please, to read what I please, and to think what I please, and it is my
understanding that Congress may make no laws abridging those
freedoms.

Then there is that other amendment that says you cannot force me
by rack or thumbscrew, or any other method, to bear witness against
myself, the right to silence.

Sir, gentlemen, I do choose to remain silent.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was your address in 1939, your street address?

May I change that question, please?

Wliat was your street address on the 16th day of June 1938?

Mrs. Mullen. The date you asked was 1938 ?

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Yes.

Mrs. Mullen. That is 15 years ago, and this was the summer when I
decided to walk out with two small children and start a new life. I
lived at several places. I believe the latter part of that summer I was
living on Crescent Heights Boulevard.

Mr. Tavennfji. Was it 1306 Crescent Heights Boulevard?

Mr. Mullen. Well, it could be. I have no such memory, but it cer-
tainly could be.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you in June 1938 change your registration from
that of the Communist Party to the Democratic Party, either in 1938
or 1939?

I would like to change that question, please, and make it a little
more direct and accurate.

Did you change your registration from that of the Communist
Party to the Democratic Party on July 25, 1939 ?

Mrs. Mullen. Well, this question seems to be a very similar one.
I am going to decline to answer the question. I am fully aware of
the consequences of my declination. But Christ said that man cannot
live by bread alone ; and I hope that this will be a strength to me in
the coming period when I am not permitted to earn the bread for
my sons.

For the reasons previously stated, that beautiful first amendment
and that carefully thought out fifth amendment, I once again choose to
remain silent.

810 COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Jackson. Do you so remain silent ?

Mrs. MuLLEx, Yes. I said the first and the fifth.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been a member of the Com-
munist Party?

Mrs. JNIuLLEN. This is the same question, Mr. Tavenner, and I am
going to decline once more to answer your question on the same
grounds previously given.

Mr. Tavenner. I liave no further questions.

Mrs. Mullen, Before I am excused, may I, as a taxpayer of Cali-
fornia, give these gentlemen, the Representatives of California, a
fact ? Sunday

Mr. Tav^ennp'r. Does it relate to your refusal to answer?

Mrs. Mullen. It relates, yes, to this committee.

Sunday before last

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, it is quite apparent that it does not
relate to the question.

Mrs. Mullen. It is a fact. You say you are wanting facts about
subversive people. I have a fact I want to give you.

Mr. Jackson. I believe, Mrs. Mullen, that you have declined to
answer the questions, you have stated your reasons for declination

Mrs. Mullen. This is something that I saw with my own eyes at
my church.

Mr. Ta^tenner. May I suggest that you confer with the investigator
of the committee, who will be very glad to receive the information.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused ?

Mrs. Mullen. There is something that I would like very much to
say to Mr. Doyle as a taxpayer. Can I say this ?

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused. The reporter will take no
more statements.

Who is your next witness ?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Wachsman, is he here?

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Wachsman.

INIr. Marshall. Mr. Tavenner, do you have the subpena for service
on the witness?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, we have.

Mr. Marshall. Will you bring it over and serve him?

Mr. Tavenner. He has been served.

Mr. Marshall. That is not the situation. He is here to be served
now.

Mr. Tavenner. The marshal's record shows that he was served.

Mr. Marshall. The marshal's records are in error. My under-
standing was when the witness produced himself here this morning,
you would serve him to do away with any question.

Mr. Tavenner. I said we would if he had not been served.

Mr. Jackson. The record will so indicate. I believe counsel said
if he had not been served we would serve him.

What are the facts as set forth in the marshal's affidavit?

Mr. Tavenner. The record of the marshal's office shows that on the
2Tth day of February, 1953, the subpena was served on Robert Wachs-
man at"r)33 North Almont Street, Beverly Hills, and served at 12:30
p. m., and it is signed "James J. Boyle, United States marshal, by
Charles W. Ross, deputy United States marshal."

COMMUlSriST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES AREA 811

Mr. Makshall. No personal service was made, and the matter can
be obviated by serving the witness here and now. A great deal of
emphasis has been placed on questions of waiver. The witness is
entitled to be served with a subpena here and now.

Mr, Jackson. Is the marshal's deputy who effected service avail-
able?

Mr, Tavenner, No ; the deputy is not available. We had to obtain
this record through the office itself.

I see no objection to service again.

Mr, Marshall. Let's serve him, then.

Mr. Jackson. Very well. If you have no objection, serve the
witness with a subpena.

Mr. Tavenner. We don't seem to have any additional subpenas.

While we are waiting for the preparation of another subpena for
service on Mr. Wachsman, I would like to call Gertrude Purcell.

Mr. Jackson, Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Miss Purcell. I do.

Mr. Jackson. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.

TESTIMONY OF GERTRUDE PURCELL

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please?

Miss Purcell, Gertrude Purcell.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, where you were
born?

Miss Purcell. New York City.

Mr. Tavenner, Wliere do you now reside?

Miss Purcell, Los Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner, How long have you lived in Los Angeles?

Miss Purcell. I have been here since 1931.

Mr. Ta\^nner. What is your occupation ?

Miss Purcell, I am a free-lance screen writer.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
your formal educational training has been ?

Miss Purcell. I went to the New York City grammar schools and
high schools, a bachelor of arts from Hunter College, and extension
courses at Columbia University.

Mr. Tavenner, Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Miss Purcell. No; I am not.

Mr. Tavenner. It is the practice of the committee to advise all
witnesses that they are entitled to counsel if they so desire, and that
they have the right to confer with counsel at any time during the course
of their testimony. I want to be certain you understood you had that
right.

(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point, 10: 52 a. m.)

Miss Purcell. Yes, I do.

Mr. Tavenner. I notice that you do not have counsel with you.
Are you willing to proceed ?

Miss Purcell. Of course ; yes.

Mr. TA^^NNER, During the course of this hearing your name was
identified by a witness as having been a member of the Communist

812 COIVEMUXIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Party of Los Angeles. I believe the name of the witness was Mr.
Hecht, although I am not sure my recollection is correct about that.

I believe you were also identified at an earlier date by another wit-
ness as having been a member, I believe that witness was Mr. Martin
Berkeley.

The investigator for this committee received a telephone call from
you, after you had been identified by Mr. Hecht

Miss PuRCELL. That is right.

Mr, Tavenner. In which you stated you desire to appear before
the committee.

Miss PuRCELL. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you tell the committee, please, just what
you desire to tell it regarding your former Communist Party member-
ship, if that is correct.

Miss PuRCELL. I wish to make it clear that I had joined the Com-
munist Part,y in September 1930.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, the circum-
stances under which you became a member and how long you w^ere a
member and the circumstances under which you left the party?

Miss Purcell. As I said, I joined in 1939. Previous to that I
had taken some Marxist courses, and I had been very concerned about
the menace of fascism, and at the time communism seemed a cure,
and the answer. I was — I joined the party in September 1939, and
I remained in it until the end of 1942.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what led up to
your getting out of the party in 1942 ?

Miss Purcell. I had been very upset by the Nazi-Russian Pact,
which had happened shortlv after 1 had joined. Even though I stayed
in so long, subconsciously I was very distressed about it, and ulti-
mately at the end I was well tired of thought control and being told
what to think and what to do, a loss of individual initiative in mind
and spirit, and I decided to quit.

So I went to the head of the group, who was ]Mr. Herbert Biberman,
and told him I wished to leave. He suggested that I take a year's
leave of absence and if I reconsidered, to return, but he said at that
time he had small hope that I would, because he personally con-
sidered me incurably bourgeois.

Mr. Tavenner. Was any effort ever made to have you return to the
Communist Party after you left it in 1942 ?

Miss Purcell. No, there was not.

Mr, Tavenner. Did you return at any time to the Communist Party
after 1942?

Miss Purcell. No, I never did. I had no connection with it what-
soever.

( Representative Donald L. Jackson reentered the hearing room at
this point, 10 : 59 a. m.)

Mr. Tavenner. Is there anything else you desire to explain to the
committee regarding your Communist Party membership that might
be of any assistance to the committee in its investigations ?

Miss Purcell. I can't think of anything at the moment, no.

Mr. Tavenner, Will you make yourself available for a conference
with an investigator of the committee later, should it be determined
advisable to do so ?

COMIN^PUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 813

Miss PuRCELL. Yes, I would be very glad to.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle?

Mr. Doyle. I think I have just one question. Why don't you claim
your privilege under the United States Constitution, with special
reference to the fifth amendment? Why do you come here without
counsel and come and admit you were a member of the Communist
Party and withdrew from it. Why don't you claim your constitutional
privilege?

Miss Purcell. I hadn't thought about it.

Mr. Doyle. Well, I wondered

Miss Purcell. No, I felt the committee was doing a good job and
deserved to be told the truth.

Mr. Doyle, Of course, I have never met you before or never talked
with you. I realize my question is perhaps rather blunt to you.

I wish to thank you very, very much for doing what you have done.

Miss Purcell. Thank you. You are quite welcome.

Mr. Jackson, Are there any further questions ?

Mr. Doyle. No.

Mr. Jackson. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. Ta\tenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.

Mr. Jackson. Thank you for your testimony.

Miss Purcell. Thank you very much,

TESTIMONY OF EOBEET WACHSMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr, Jackson. Will you please rise and hold up your right hand?
Do you solmenly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Wachsman. I do.

Mr. Jackson. You may proceed.

Mr. Ta\'lnner. What is your name, please, sir?

Mr. Wachsman. My name is Robert Wachsman.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Mr. Wachsman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself?

Mr. Marshall. Daniel G, Marshall.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Wachsman?

Mr, Wachsman, I was born in Chicago in April of 1902.

Mr. Tavenner, Wliere do you now reside?

Mr. Wachsman. In Los Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles?

Mr. Wachsman. About 16 years.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?

Mr. Wachsman. Well, up to a few days ago I was a publicist.

Mr. Tavenner, Will you please tell the committee briefly what your
formal educational training has been ?

814 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Wachsman. Well, I went to grade school and high school in
Chicago. I went to college in Pennsylvania, and I am a graduate of
the University of Pennsylvania.

Mr. Tavenner. What has been the principal nature of your employ-
ment since you have been in California ?

Mr. Wachsman. Well, for a short time I sold real estate. For the
last 12 years I have been in the publicity business, public relations,
except that there was a period when I was employed on a trade paper,
and I was in the Army for a spell, 1942 to 1943.

Mr. Tavenner. A witness testified before this committee on Jan-
uary 21, 1952, by the name of Charles Daggett. In the course of his
testimony Mr. Daggett testified that he was invited to go to a dinner
at the home of Ring Lardner, Jr., and then followed that by this
statement :

And I did go to his home for dinner and it seemed to be jiist a sort of dinner
party in his home. There were 10, 15, 18 people there in West Los Angeles, or
Westwood, I guess you would call it. After dinner, after eating and drinking
and talking. Ring Lardner asked me and the man I went to the dinner party
with if we wouldn't join the Communist Party at that time because the Com-
munist Party was working and working toward some kind of peaceful settle-
ment of this strike situation.

And the next question was :

Who was it that extended the invitation?

And the answer was —

Ring Lardner, Jr., Another person I can remember being at the meeting
was Dalton Trumbo, whom I didn't know at that time, but recalled him later.
There was also another man who was a publicist named Robert Wachsman,
although I had never seen him again after that particular meeting — at any
party meeting.

Were you a member of the Communist Party or any group of the
Communist Party while living in Los Angeles, while living in Cali-
fornia ?

(At this point Mr. Wachsman conferred with Mr. Marshall.)
. Mr. Wachsman. Mr. Tavenner, the testimony you just read, is that
the only testimony that is against me?

Mr. Tavenner. Would that affect your answer ?

(At this point Mr. Wachsman conferred with Mr. Marshall.)

Mr. Tavenner. Would that have anything to do with whether
or not you were a member of the Communist Party ?

(At this point Mr. Wachsman conferred with Mr. Marshall.)

Mr. Wachsman. What I would like to know is the connection that
your testimony, the testimony that you just read might have to the
question that you just asked me, if I may ask you.

Mr. Tavenner. I have read to you the mentioning of your name
by Mr. Daggett, and my first question to you is whether or not you
were a member of the Communist Party.

I will follow that question by asking another question, depending
upon your answer to my first question.

(At this point Mr. Wachsman conferred with Mr. Marshall.)

Mr. Wachsman. Mr. Tavenner, is this on?

Mr. Marshall. Yes.

Mr. Wachsman. Mr. Counsel and gentlemen of the committee, I am
not going to make any long speeches. Many of the things I feel and
believe in have been presented by other people before me. I am sim-

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 815

ply going to claim the fifth amendment and refuse to answer that
question.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the basis for your refusal to answer the

question ?

(At this point Mr. Wachsman conferred with Mr. Marshall.)

Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. I didn't understand all you had to

say.

Mr. Jackson. The witness claimed the privilege of the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Tavenner. I didn't hear that.

Mr. Jackson. Is that correct?

Mr. Wachsman. That is right.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. No questions. Have you any questions, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. Doyle. No questions.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. No.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.

Will you call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Wilenchick.

TESTIMONY OF CLEMENT WILENCHICK, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Jackson. Will you please rise, Mr. Wilenchick ? Do you sol-
emnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this com-
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?

Mr. Wilenchick. I do. The correct spelling of my name, which
is not entered correctly upon the subpena, I would like to clear up
on the record, because I have some hope as a creative artist that my
name will survive the demise of this committee.

I will spell it for you. It is C-1-e-m-e-n-t W-i-1-e-n-c-h-i-c-k.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel, Mr. Wilenchick?

Mr. Wilenchick. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. W^ill counsel please identify themselves for the
record ?

Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.

Mr. Esterman. William B. Esterman.

Mr. Tavenner. Now, when and where were you born, Mr. Wilen-
chick ?

Mr. Wilenchck. I was born in New York City in 1900.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?

Mr. Wilenchick. I reside in Los Angeles, Mr. Tavenner.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles?

Mr. Wilenchick. Approximately 15 years, one way or the other.
I would say since 1937, to be exact.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation?

Mr. Wilenchick. I am an artist and an actor.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
your former educational training has been?

Mr. Wilenchick. It will be very brief. I attended the public and
elementary schools in New York City, in France, and in Wales. I

3174T— 53— pt. 4 8

816 COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

went to a private hi^li school in New York City called Ethical Cul-
tural School. I had a year at the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine
Arts and some few months at the Art Student College in New York
City. And I also attended Sargents Academy of Dramatic Art in
New York City.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Wilenchick, the committee has received a sworn
statement by Richard Collins that you were a person known to him
to be a member of the Communist Party in Los Angeles. We desire to
know whether you were a member of the Communist Party in Los
Angeles, and if so, what group it was that you were attached to ?

(At this point Mr. Wilenchick conferred with Mr. Etisterman and
Mr. Marshall.)

Mr. Wilenchick. May we have the question repeated, please ?

Mr. Jackson. Will you read the question, Mr. Reporter?

(The question was read.)

(At this point Mr. Wilenchick conferred with Mr. Esterman and
Mr. Marshall.)

Mr. Wilenchick. Thank you for getting right to the point, Mr.
Tavenner. I will do likewise. I decline to answer that question for
the following reasons, legal reasons : I decline under the first amend-
ment and the fourth amendment and the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think that

Mr. Esterman. Just a moment, just a moment.

Mr. Jackson. Go ahead, counsel.

Mr. Tavenner. In light of the answer, I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. No questions.

Mr. Doyle. No questions.

Mr. Jackson. Any reason why the witness should not be excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. No.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, will you determine if your next witness
is here in the hearing room ?

Mr. Tavenner. Matilda Lewis. Is Matilda Lewis in the hearing
room ?

(No response.)

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Marshal, would you inquire in the hallway if
Matilda Lewis is present?

Mr. Jackson. It appears she has not yet arrived, Mr. Tavenner.
Would this be a good time to take a 10-minute recess?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Jackson. The committee will stand in recess until 11 : 30 o'clock.

(Whereupon a recess was taken from 11 : 20 until 11 : 30 a. m.)

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order.

(After the recess, at 11:30 a. m., the proceedings were resumed,
Representatives Donald L. Jackson and Clyde Doyle being present.)

Mr. Jackson. Wlio is your next witness. Counsel ?

Mr. Tavenner. Frank Tarloff.

TESTIMONY OF FEANK TARLOFF, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,

MORRIS E. COHN

Mr. Jackson. Mr. TarlolT, will you be sworn? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give before this committee
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?

COMMUXIST ACTR'ITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 817

Mr. Tarloff. I do.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?

Mr. Tarloff. Frank TarlofF.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name, please ?

Mr. Tarloff. T-a-r-1-o-f-f.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Mr. Tarloff. Yes, I am.

Mr. Ta\t5nner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record?

Mr. CoHN. My name is Morris E. Cohn.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Tarloff?

Mr. Tarloff. In New York City in 1916.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?

Mr. Tarloff. In Los Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in Los Angeles?

Mr. Tarloff. About 10 years.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation?

Mr. Tarloff. I am a writer. I will anticipate you a bit. Mostly
in radio and television.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in writing in those
fields?

Mr. Tarloff. About 12 or 13 years, approximately.

Mr. Tavenner. Where had you engaged in that work prior to com-
ing to Los Angeles ?

Mr. Tarloff. Well, for a very short time in New York City.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has been?

Mr. Tarloff. I went through the elementarj'^ and hio;h schools of
New York City, and have a B. A. degree from Brooklyn College.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Tarloff, during the course of these hearings
Mr. David Lang, a witness before the committee, I believe on March —
I do not recall the exact date, but some time in March. Mr. Lang
identified you as having been a member of the Communist Party.

The committee also has a sworn statement of Leo Townsend and also
the sworn statement of Richard Collins, in both of which statements
you are identified as having been a member of the Communist Party.

I would like to ask you at this time to tell the committee, please,
whether you were a member of the Communist Party, and if so, what
group or cell of the Communist Party was it that you were a member

to

uf

(At this point Mr. Tarloff conferred with Mr. Cohn.)

Mr. Tarloff. To this question and to all other questions which in
my opinion invade my rights to private opinions and associations I
will refuse to answer, because were I to answer this question, either
in the afiirmative or negative, it would be tacit admission that you
have the right to ask this question, and I don't think you have the
right to ask this question, because it does invade these rights guaran-
teed to me by one of the amendments of the Bill of Rights.

I will further refuse to answer this and similar questions because I
cannot and I must insist and emphasize here that no inference of
any kind may be drawn from this reason, as was held by the courts of
this country. I cannot be made to testify against myself, and for
these two reasons I refuse to answer this and all similar questions.

I would like to continue further. I would like to point out that I
am — this is my answer to you, that after very great consideration, and

818 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA

I admit at tremendous sacrifice to myself, and it is not an easy deci-
sion to make and was arrived at by myself only after the most pro-
found self-search.

It would have been very easy to do what you ask me to do. It would
have been very profitable to do what you ask me to do.

Mr. Tavenner, I disagree with you. I don't think it is an easy
matter for a witness to testify.

Mr, Tarloff. Well, all I can tell you is what I am sacrificing in
refusing on very, very higli principles to answer your questions.

Mr. Tavenner. I am very sorry you felt you had to make that type
of decision.

Mr. Jackson. The witness has refused to answer. May I ask the
witness again upon what grounds ?

Mr. Tarloff. Upon the two constitutional amendments which I
mentioned.

INIr. Jackson. Which two?

Mr. Tarloff. Which I described. Do you want them by number ?

Mr. Jackson. Yes.

Mr. Tarloff. I believe the first and the fifth.

Mr. Jackson. You decline to answer the questions upon the consti-
tutional provisions of the first and fifth amendments?

Mr. Tarloff. Yes. _ •

Mr. Jackson. Are there any further questions?

Mr. Tavenner. No, in the light of the witness' answer and explana-
tion, I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle?

Mr. Doyle. No.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be
excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. No.

Mr. Jackson. You are excused.

Has Matilda Lewis come into the hearing room ?

(No response.)

Mr. Jackson. At this time the committee will stand in recess until
1 : 30 this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 11 : 40 a. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 1 : 30 p. m., the same day.)

afternoon session

(At the hour of 1 : 40 p. m., of the same day, the proceedings were
resumed, with Kepresentatives Donald L. Jackson and Clyde Doyle
present.)

Mr. Jackson. The committee regrets the delay, which is apt to go
on for a few minutes more, pending word of one of the witnesses who
is expected momentarily.

So if the press and audience will bear with us, we will get started
as soon as we can.

The Chair might add, in that connection, that the witness who is
hoped will be here shortly will be the last witness in open session to-
day. The remaining witnesses will be heard by the committee in
executive session.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken" from 1 : 42 p. m. to 1 : 45 p. m.)

Mr. Tavenner. Is Matilda Lewis in the hearing room ?

(No response.)

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 819

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Marshal, will you inquire in the corridor ?

Mr. Jackson. Evidently Matilda Lewis is not here. If she shows
up during the course of the afternoon, in the next couple of hours, the
hearing will be reopened. The connnittee will now go into executive
session.

(Whereupon, at 1 : 45 p. m., the committee went into executive ses-
sion, until 2 : 15 p. m.)

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order. Let the record show
that the committee went into executive session at 1 : 45 p. m. and
remained in executive session until 2 : 15 p. m.

The Chair has received a communication addressed to the House
Committee on Un-American Activities, Federal Building, Los An-
geles, Calif.

Gentlemen : As president of the Los Angeles Newspai)er Guild, Local No. 69, a
unit of the American Guild, CIO, I herewith ask that this communication be
entered in your official records as a voluntary response to recent testimony
before your committee.

In the testimony referred to, William Oliver identified himself as a member
of the Los Angeles Newspaper Guild, while refusing to answer certain questions
as to his possible connections with the Communist Party. Officers of this guild
have no knowledge of any cell of the Communist Party now existing in the Los
Angeles Newspaper Guild.

The Los Angeles Newspaper Guild and the entire American Newspaper Guild
organization is in full accord with the Congress of Industrial Organizations'
stand against Communist-dominated unions.

All officers of the Los Angeles Newspaper Guild have for years past complied
with the non-Communist affidavit requirements of the Taft-Hartley law.

The general membership of the Los Angeles Newspaper Guild is on official
record, by resolution voted in July of 1952, as follows :

"Hereby urges legislative groups and autliorized Federal bodies or agencies to
increase the guard against subversive and treasonable activities on the part of
any person, group of persons, or political party that threatens the security,
freedom, and well-being of the people of the United States."

As a trade union, the Los Angeles Newspaper Guild is unable to exclude from
membership any professional newspaper worker if he meets the qualifications
of the profession, but the overwhelming majority of its membership has long
ago learned the freedom-destroying dangers of communism and has long ago
roused itself to assert and keep control of the union's affairs from any possible
Communist or other un-American domination.

And that is signed "George Meenes, president, Los Angeles News-
paper Guild, 69, CIO." •. . .

The committee is very happy to receive the communication and it
will be entered in the record.

Who is your first witness, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ruskin.

Mr. Jackson. Will you please stand and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
this committee w411 be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. RusKiN. I do.

TESTIMONY OF SHIMEN RUSKIN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?

Mr. Ruskin. My name is Shimen Ruskin.

Mr. Tavenner. Would you spell your name, please?

Mr. Ruskin. S-h-i-m-e-n, and my last name is R-u-s-k-in.

820 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Tavenneh. Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Mr. KusKiN. Yes ; I am.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel identify themselves for the record?

Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.

Mr. EsTERMAN. William B. Esterman.

Mr. Ta\"enner. When and where were you born, Mr. Ruskin?

Mr. RusKiK. I was born in Vilno, Poland. February 1907,

Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to the United States?

Mr. Ruskin. I came to the United States in 1923 in search for
freedom.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ?

Mr. Ruskin. Yes; I am, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. When did you become a naturalized citizen, and
where ?

Mr. Ruskin. In New York City in 1929.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?

Mr. Ruskin. In Los Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles ?

Mr. Ruskin. Thirteen years.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession or occupation?

Mr. Ruskin. I am an actor, sir. I have been an actor all my life, a
good actor. I do not say that in the sense of vanity, but I have always
tried to bring truth to ni}^ work in whatever part was given me.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ruskin, were you ever a member of the north-
west section of the Communist Party of the county of Los Angeles?

Mr. Ruskin. Mr. Tavenner, to answer that question would be the
same as to ask me to pile a stone toward the foundation of gas
chambers.

My family, my father, my mother, and all my sisters and brothers
were burned by Mr. Hitler.

This committee represents to me the very same danger. I am afraid
of it. I have been under subpena for 9 months. I haven't slept
well. I lived in fear of this committee and I will not cooperate with
this committee.

I decline to answer this question on my constitutional grounds, and,
to make it brief for you, the first and the fifth amendments'.

Mr. Tavenner. In view of the witness" answer, I will ask no further
questions.

Mr. Jackson. Any questions, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. Doyle. I think I have no questions at this time.

My. Jackson. There is no reason why the witness should not be
excused, Mr. Tavener?

JNIr. Tavenner. No, sir.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Nedrick Young.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Young, w^ill you please raise your right hand?
Do you solmnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. Young. I do.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 821

TESTIMONY OF NED YOUNG, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?

Mr. Young. My legal name is Ned Young. The name "Nedrick
Young" that appears on the subpena is a professional name which I
have been advised that I will have no longer any use for by a member
of your staff.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you represented by counsel?

Mr. Young. Yes; I am.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the
record ?

Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.

Mr. Esterman. William B. Esterman.

Mr. Tavenner. Now, when and where were you born, Mr. Young?

Mr. Young. I was born in Philadelphia in May of 191-i.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?

Mr. Young. I reside in the county of Los Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in the county of Los
Angeles ?

Mr. Young. For approximately 13 years.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?

Mr. Young. My occupation was that of an actor and writer.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly, please, what
your formal educational" training has been for your profession?

Mr. Young. My formal educational training consists of an ele-
mentary and partial high-school education in the schools of New York
and Philadelphia, and a thorough groundwork in the master works of
American literature.

My education really began with Emerson and Thoreau, with Jef-
ferson and Lincoln, men who subscribed to ideas that the chairman
of this connnittee would gladly burn along with the assistance

Mr. Jackson. That is an absolute false statement.

Mr. Young. The chairman of this committee has introduced a bill
into the Congress, bill No. 6335, which provides for the congressional
librarian to brand such books as he deems subversive.

Mr. Jackson. The introduction of any piece of legislation by the
chairman of this committee is a matter which will be decided in due
course by the Congress of the United States and not by the witness
who is presently in the witness chair.

Mr, Young. And which will be discussed by the people of the
United States. You made a statement that I take exception to, Mr.
Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. I take exception to your attitude and manner.

Mr. Young. A little while ago you referred to Congress as the
highest body in the United States, You are wrong. The highest
body of the IJnited States is the people,

Mr, Jackson, Will you please answer the question? Your con-
tempt is of a very low order and will never win any awards if they
were handing out presents for contempt before this committee,

Mr. Young. I think that is a pretty low humor and I don't think I
like it.

Mr. Jackson. Will you please proceed?

822 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Young. Do you seriously think you can pound the truth in the
dust with that gavel?

Mr. Jackson. Will you please continue with your answer?

Mr. Tavenner. Have you completed advising the committee of
your educational, formal educational training?

Mr. Young. All that is pertinent to this inquiry, I am certain.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Young, liave you been a member of the Com-
munist Party while in Los Angeles?

Mr. Young. Do you have any evidence to this effect, or testimony
to this effect ? If you have, produce it.

Mr. Jackson. Answer the question.

Mr. Young. I challenge this committee to produce such evidence.

Mr. Jackson. Will you answer the question ?

Mr. Young. Of course, I won't answer this question.

Mr. Jackson. Very well; do you decline to answer the question?

Mr. Young. I most certainly do and wish to state my grounds.

Mr. Jackson, Go ahead.

(At this point Mr. Young conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. Young. I wish to say, first of all, as an American citizen and
as a father, I will not answer any questions that are propounded to
me as a result of coercion.

I also will most certainly refuse to answer any questions of a com-
mittee that refuses to confront me with an accuser, the most primitive
American right.

Why don't you tell me what evidence you have against me ?

Mr. Jackson. Will you please continue with the reasons for your
declination to answer the question?

Mr. Young. I think this is a disgusting American procedure.

Mr. Jackson, Your observation is entered in the record. Will you
please continue with your declination, the reasons for it, if you please.

Mr, Young. My feeling is, and I must explain to you, and I will
be brief, that the Constitution of the United States is the muscle fiber
of our democracy and it must be continually exercised against bodies
such as this if our democracy is to remain healthy.

I think that this committee has been suppressive of every voice in
America that has spoken out for the needs and desires of decent peo-
ple of America for better wages, better living, the right to work to-
gether ; for freedom, for racial equality in its deepest sense, for peace
in its deepest sense.

The present chairman of this committee told falsehoods in the
Halls of Congress, and I would like to document this; and the result
of these falsehoods was the storing up of force and violence in what
had been a peaceful community up until now.

Mr. Jackson. If that came from any other source than 3'ourself
the committee would probably consider it, but when a man is asked
if he is a member of the Communist Party and does not have the man-
hood to answer the question, then we don't think it bears very much
weight.

Mr. Young. You refuse to let this documentation be read into the
record.

Mr, Jackson. The documents that you have have nothing to do
with the question you have been asked and declined to answer. Will
you please continue with your reasons for declining?

COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 823

Mr. Young. I invoke, I exercise and defend the Constitution of the
United States against this body and all similar bodies.

I will not answer your question, because to answer your question
would be to concede your right to ask it, and this I do not do. I con-
sider this committee a flagrant corruption of the Constitution, and
I consider it designed to invade the right to think, to speak, to act,
to assemble with people freely. This I will never be a party to.

I decline to answer your question on the basis of the first amendment.

And I further invoke and exercise and protect that area of the
Constitution that states that a person accused of a crime shall be con-
fronted by his accuser and shall be given the right to cross-examine.

Mr. Jackson. Of what crime have you been accused ^

Mr. Young. Why am I being punished ?

Mr. Jackson. You are not being punished. You are here because
you have been identified as a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Young. By whom?

Mr. Jackson. Will you answer the question? Are you a member
of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Young. By whom ?

Mr. Jackson. The committee is asking the questions. Will you
answer the question : Are you a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Young. By whom was I identified as a member of the Com-
munist Party ? I defy you to say by whom.

Mr. Jackson. That is information which has been developed by
this committee and which may or may not be brought out during the
course of this testimony. If you want to clear yourself of any charge
or allegation, you have here a great forum in which to do it. If that
information is incorrect, all you have to do is say, "Sir, I have not been
a member of the Communist Partv."

Mr. Young. I am glad you called this a forum.

Mr. Jackson. It is a great American forum.

Mr. Young. As a matter of fact, I agree with you. I agree with
you — I agree that you call it a forum and I agree that you call this
the greatest forum in the world.

Mr. Jackson. No, I never called it the greatest forum in the world.
I have called the House of Representatives the greatest forum in the
world. If you know a forum before which you would not have been
shot for your attitude except in the free forum of a free people, I
would like to have you point it out to us.

Mr. Young. I resent that.

Mr. Jackson. That is quite all right. I resent what you are saying.

Mr. Young. That is all right.

I^Ir. Jackson. If you don't think I resent sitting here day after day
and being abused by men of your stripe and background, you are en-
tirely in error.

Mr. Young. How low can you get ? I think you are a contemptible
man.

Mr. Jackson. I am proud to be called contemptible by people such
as you, sir, and let that be very clear in the record. If you did not
believe me to be contemptible, I would step out of this position im-
mediately and take a look at where I was going.

824 COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Young. I tliiiik you should and I think the American people
should take a look at where you are going. I will tell you where you
are going.

Mr. Jackson. My people will take care of where I am going.

Mr. Young. You are going in the direction of fascism.

Mr. Jackson. I would rather be going in the direction of fascism
than where you are going.

Mr, Young. I am sure you would.

Mr. Jackson. I would much rather be going where I am than to bo
a slave and a lackey to the Communist Party.

Mr. Young. Fascism is better than anj^thing, isn't it, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. Jackson. Fascism is no good. It is the same sort of thing as
communism. There is no difference between the two of them. Either
one would make a slave out of you.

Mr. Young. I think your intellectual prattle is extremely reveal-
ing. Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. Continue with your answers, will you please?

Mr. Young. Yes. I ask again I be confronted with witnesses.

Mr. Jackson. You are not going to be confronted by anyone. Will
you please continue with your reasons?

Mr. Young. What is his name, Mr. Jackson? I was told by a mem-
ber of your staff that my future and my career was ended. I will give
you the exact words. He said, "I am sorry you won't give me any
more information. You know what will happen. This is your future
and your career." And I tell you it is my conscience and my country.

Mr. Jackson. Will you bring witnesses before the committee to sub-
stantiate that?

Mr. Young. I won't bring anything before your committee.

Mr. Jackson. To stibstantiate your statement. How can we take
your word, the word of a man who will not deny whether he is a
member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Young. I am under oath, and I remember you said that you
prefer nazism or fascism to America.

Mr. Jackson. That will be all of the discussion. Will you continue
with your answers?

Mr. Young. Again, I invoke, I exercise and I protect that area of
the Constitution of the United States which says that no one shall be
deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, and
I consider my right to work as the most sacred property any man ever
had.

I consider the right to a job to support my children as being taken
away from me by whom you will not confront me with, my accuser,
you who dares to pound a gavel and call this a forum.

Mr. Jackson. Will you please continue with your reasons, sir?

Mr. Young. I wish to further invoke particularly, in view of the
statement you made this morning, that the Congress is the highest
body of the United States, the ninth and tenth amendments which
state that the people reserve to themselves the rights which have not
been specifically delegated to Congress.

It is not your function to tell me what to think, Mr. Jackson. It is
my function to tell you how to vote.

Mr. Jackson. The function of the Congress is as a representative of
the American people. That is fundamental.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 825

Mr. Young. Why don't you start representing them ? I am sure the
American people wouldn't prefer fascism to anything else, or they
wouldn't prefer fascism

Mr. Jackson, Nor did I say fascism. I said they were both of the
same stripe.

Mr. Young. Let the record be read. I am sure it will be carefully
edited before

]\lr. Jackson. I told you fascism and communism, to my mind, are
identical twins.

Mr. Young. May I request that the record be read ?

Mr. Jackson. You will request from now to midnight, if you care
to. We are going on with the hearing.

Mr. Young. I would be delighted to stay here from now until
midnight.

Mr. Jackson. Will you please continue?

Mr. Young. Please don't pound the gavel at me.

Mr. Jackson. I shall pomid the gavel as much as I desire. The
gavel, although you have no respect for it

]VIr. Young. I am sure you desire to pound it.

Mr. Jackson (continuing). Although you evidently have no re-
spect for any authority whatever, the gavel still remains the symbol
of the Congress of the United States, and I am wielding it as a symbol
of the authority of the Congress of the United States and the Amer-
ican people.

Mr. Young. It happens that you are wielding it on behalf of your
inability to answer a question, to present

Mr. Jackson. I will not take dictation from you.

Mr. Young (continuing). Who my accuser is. This is costing my
livelihood. I will never work again.

Mr. Jackson. None of us will ever work again, unless you get on
with your reasons-

Mr. Young. This is the fruits of the tacit approval, the defense of
these people, that you have been making all week. I have sat here
and watched this. I think that is just rotten.

Mr. Jackson. What replies has the witness made, what constitu-
tional

Mr. Young. I have not finished my answer.

Mr. Jackson. Just a moment.

Mr. Tavenner. I think he is at the ninth and tenth amendments
by this time.

Mr. Young. That is correct.

Mr. Jackson. Will you please proceed ?

Mr. Tavenner. I may say that, although the witness has arrived
at the ninth and tenth amendments, I did not hear him refer to the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Young. You will presently.

Mr. Jackson. Please proceed.

Mr. Young. I further invoke, exercise, and protect with my total
conscience and with every ounce of pride at my command, and with
all the emphasis I can muster and for all the people of the United
States, it is petty tyrannies like this that section of the fifth amend-
ment that permits people to speak freely and honestly and to exercise
against compulsion to bear witness against themselves applies.

Mr. Jackson. Have you concluded?

826 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Young. I would like you to bear witness against me. Will you
name my accuser ?

Mr. Jackson. Have you concluded your reasons for declining to
answer the question?

JNIr. Young. I have concluded my reasons.

Mr. Jackson. Are there any further questions, Mr. Tavenner?

INIr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Any further questions, Mr. Doyle ?

Mr. Doyle. No.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not db
excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.

Mr. Jackson. Who is your next witness, Mr. Counsel?

]Mr. Tavenner. Sol Kaplan.

Mr. Jackson. Do you solemnly swear in the testimony you are about
to give, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Kaplan. I do.

Mr. Jackson. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.

TESTIMONY OF SOL KAPLAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?

Mr. Kaplan. My name is Sol Kaplan.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?

Mr. Kaplan. The best.

Mr, Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the
record ?

Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.

Mr. EsTERMAN. William B. Esterman.

Mr. Kaplan. Mr. Tavenner, I would appreciate it if the photog-
raphers would take all the pictures they want now and after my tes-
timony, but

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Kaplan?

Mr. Kaplan. I was born in Philadelphia on April 19, 1919 ; Phila-
delphia, Pa.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?

Mr. Kaplan. In Los Angeles.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in Los Angeles ?

Mr. Kaplan. Since about 1946 on.
' Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession or occupation?

Mr. Kaplan. I am a musician and a composer.

]\Ir. Tavenner. Will you state to the committee, please, what your
educational, formal educational training has been ?

Mr. Kaplan. Yes. My education began at a very early age, formal
education. When I was about 5 I was given a scholarship to the pre-
paratory school of Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia.

Shortly thereafter, when I was about 5i/^, I played my first piano
recital. Subsequently I studied and performed in many concerts, won
many scholarships. I performed with major symphony orchestras and
had many successful recitals in New York's Carnegie Hall.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 827

I graduated from the Curtis Institute of Music in three majors. I
believe I am one of the few students that accomplished this. I gradu-
ated in piano, in composition, and conducting.

Also, during the course of this study I received a scholarship for
further composition study to Italy. I continued my concert career
and composing until, in 1940, I was called out to Hollywood to write
the score for a movie called "Sister Carrie." At that time the film
was canceled ; so I returned to my concert career.

In 1941, I resumed film work for a brief period of time and among
the scores was the film "Tales of Manhattan."

Subsequently there was a period in the Army. After the Army, I
did a show called Shootin' Star. Tliis was a musical based on the
saga of Billy the Kid.

In 1947, I went to France as music director for Alice in Wonder-
land.

I returned to work in Hollywood and I have scored many films,
many successful films. Among some of the scores I have done are
"Mr. 880," "I Climbed the Highest Mountain" — this was a very charm-
ing film about an honest preacher — "I Can Get It for You Wholesale,"
"Kangaroo," "Way of a Gaucho," "Niagara," "Destination Gobi," a
comedy about congressional investigations, properly entitled "Some-
thing for the Birds," and the yet unreleased "Titanic."

So, as you see, Mr. Tavenner, music is very important to me and has
been my whole life. I cannot divorce myself from that thinking, when
I sit here before you at this particular moment, because from the
earliest primitive chants to the symphonies of Beethoven and the folk-
songs of every people music has expressed mankind's deepest emotions
and highest aspirations.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Kaplan, may I interrupt you a moment?

Is this responsive to a question which has been asked, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. Ta^^nner. I think at the moment it has gotten beyond the
question that I asked.

Mr. Jackson. The formal academic training, I think was the ques-
tion.

Mr. Kaplan. I think it is very interesting that this committee, which
has called me before it, particularly they called me as a musician and
composer, and it might be of some value to this committee to learn a
little bit about music and what it stands for, unless, of course, you
know about it already.

Mr. Jackson. We have heard a considerable amount about it. We
heard about Mr. Shostakovich who crawled on his musical belly, for
one thing.

Mr. Kaplan. Have j'ou ever heard a piece of Mr. Shostakovich?
Will you name it ?

Mr. Jackson. I have heard a great many pieces. I am not going to
enter into any discussion with you at this time.

Mr. Kaplan. Because you are not a music critic, but you are trying
to be one at this time.

Mr. Jackson. Proceed, please.

Mr. Kaplan. If you have any musical opinions, address them to the
music columns of the New York Times.

Mr. Jackson. I will refer to Mr. Shostakovich who did crawl on his
cultural belly for the musical commissars.

828 COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Kaplan. I have not finished.

Mr. Jackson. Just a moment, Mr. Kaplan. Is there a question
pending?

Mr. Ta'\'ennek. I believe the witness has completed his answer to
the question as to what his formal education and training has been.

Mr. Kaplan. I said I have not completed.

Mr. Tam^nnek. Well, have you engaged in any formal educational
training other than that which you have mentioned?

Mr. Kaplan. Well, from the background that I have given you,
Mr. Tavenner, obviously my training is quite different than the
formal training of

Mr. Tavenner. I think that is a matter that the committee is cap-
able of judging, and it is only necessary that you state in a general
way what your educational training has been, and I believe you have
pretty well covered that.

Mr. Kaplan. In other words, you don't want to hear about the
other training that I think is equally important ?

Mr. Tavenner. Have you had training — —

Mr. Kaplan. I think it is of great educational value. Are you in-
terested, Mr. Tavenner, in the question of education ?

Mr. Jackson. Is it formal education which you personally have
received ?

Mr. Kaplan. Yes, very definitely. It is the formal education that
was given to me, the heritage that was given to me by my father
and mother, and I think this is very important.

Mr. Jackson. You were asked for your formal academic training.

Mr. Kaplan. I don't think one is divorced from the other, Mr.
Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. That is the question, Mr. Kaplan. Have you com-
pleted the statement as to your formal academic training?

Mr. Kaplan. In my opinion, I have not. Therefore, if I may con-
tinue, I will.

Mr. Jackson. If it deals with formal academic training, you may
continue.

Mr. Kaplan. I think the education that was given to me, and the
heritage, by my mother and father is something that I am very proud
of, ancl I think it is part and parcel of why I am here, too. There-
fore, if I may be permitted to continue, 1 would like to state that
I am here because my father is a workingman

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, quite obviously that is not in re-
sponse to my question.

Mr. Jackson. Strike it from the record. You are not here at all
because your father is a workingman.

Mr. Kaplan. Are you afraid of workingmen, Mr. Jackson, is that
why you strike it from the record ?

Mr. Jackson. You are not here because your father is a working-
man, but because the committee has information which indicates that
you have been and possibly are now a member of the Communist
Party.

Mr. Kaplan. You know darn well that is a good reason, because
you don't like workers.

Mr. Jackson. That, of course, is a malicious statement and without
any foundation.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 829

Mr. Kaplan. All his life my father was faced with intimidation
and blacklist.

Mr. Jackson. That has nothing to do with your formal education.

Mr. Kaplan. It certainly has. I understand this committee. That
is part of the education I have. And I understand men like you very
well, Mr. Jackson. I know what djiscrimination means.

Mr. Jackson. If you want to enter your knowledge of this com-
mittee as a portion of your formal academic training, that is quite all
right, but will you please confine your answer to such formal aca-
demic training ?

Mr. Kaplan. You are trying to silence me, Mr. Jackson. If I may
continue and describe what my education has been, as far as my
mother and father is concerned, I think that might have some bearing.

Mr. Jackson. All right, if it will speed the process, go ahead and
give us the training as far as your mother and father are concerned.

Mr. Kaplan. I started to say before that I am here because my
father is a workingman, a presser in the garment industry, a Jew.
In my childhood I knew the bitterness of the sweatshop, of unem-
ployment, and of anti-Semitism. I learned courage and faith from
his struggle, the fight common to all working people, that their chil-
dren might have a life better than theirs.

All his life my father, as I said, was faced with intimidation, black-
list and discrimination, as I am today in this committeeroom. He
has never given up this fight, nor shall I.

And this is the end to the question of education.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Kaplan, during the period of your residence m
Los Angeles have you at any time been a member of the Communist
Party?

Mr. Kaplan. Why do you ask me that question, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question?

Mr. Kaplan. I am interested in asking why you ask me this ques-
tion.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the witness be di-
rected to answer ?

Mr. Jackson. The witness is directed to answer the question.

(At this point Mr. Kaplan conferred with Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall )

Mr. Kaplan. I would appreciate it if that fan will be turned off,
because the papers keep flying up and down here. Is it possible ?

Thank you very much.

Mr. Tavenner, the reason I asked why is I think pretty obvious
to you. By asking this question it means that I have been accused
by someone, for if I have not been accused, why would you ask this
question? Therefore I think it is only fair for me to ask who is my
accuser. I would like to face this being face to face. But at least for
the moment could you supply this accuser's name? Because if you
can't, then I think you should withdraw this question.

Mr. Jackson. You have been directed to answer the question, Mr.
Kaplan,

Mr. Kaplan. In other words, you can't produce anybody, so there-
fore you just say "Go ahead, answer the question; get yourself black-
listed," because you know that I am not going to cooperate with this
kind of committee.

830 COJVCVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Jackson. The information compiled by this committee is of a
nature which the committee has every reason to believe is accurate.
You have simply to deny it, if it is not accurate, and the entire matter
can be solved very easily.

Mr. Kaplan. Produce this information, please.

Mr. Jackson. Please answer the question.

Mr, Kaplan. Why don't you want to produce it ?

]\Ir. Jackson. Will you answer the question ^

Mr. Kaplan. Are you afraid to produce it, or is it because you
haven't got any information? What are you trying to do to me, Mr.
Jackson?

Mr. Jackson. I am trying to do nothing to you, Mr. Kaplan.

Mr. Kaplan. I think you are deliberately trying to silence me as a
musician, you are trying to stop me from working at a livelihood
which I have shown great capability at, and you are trying to stop my
children from having enough food, for me to pay the rent. And do
you know why ? Because you hate anybody that opposes you.

Mr. Jackson. You have been directed to answer the question.

Mr. Kaplan. Ordinarily I wouldn't bother answering the question
for Donald K. Jackson, whatever your initial is. Do you know why,
Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. No, because

Mr. Kaplan. Any man who compares a bishop to a horse, and re-
ligion to horseracing, is a bigot, a perverter, and a devil on earth, and
I accuse you of all of that.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, this is, of course, entirely aside from
the question. I suggest that the witness be directed to answer the
question.

Mr. Jackson. The witness has been directed to answer the question.

Mr. Kaplan. Without an accuser you demand that I answer this
question? Very well.

If the press is free they will print this and see the stupidity of this
questioning and the line with which you proceed.

You accuse without fact, you pronounce one guilty before there is
a chance of any public trial, because you just can't stand anybody, you
can't stand anybody that opposes you.

Very well. You asked this question. I will be blacklisted tomorrow,
there is no question about that. Do you know why? Because I am
going to answer this question.

In the first place, you have no right

]\[r. Jackson. Will you please answer the question?

Mr. Kaplan. I am answering the question, Mr. Jackson. I am
going to answer it in my way.

]\Ir. Jackson. You are stating the rights of the committee, which is
not relative to the question that was asked you.

Mr. Kaplan. How do you know what I was going to say? What
did I say?

Mr. Jackson. That we had no right to

INIr. Kaplan. Hoav do vou know what I was going to sav after that?

Mr. Jackson. Answer the question or decline to answer it.

Mr. Kaplan. I am going to answer it in my way. I am not your
Charlie McCarthy, I am no block of wood.

Mr. Jackson. Get on with your answer.

Mr. Kaplan. Your ventriloquism does not work with me.

COMlVrUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 831

Mr, Jackson. No. I would pick another dummy.

Mr. Kaplan. I am quite sure you would.

Mr. Jackson. Please answer the question.
• Mr. Kaplan. You are very strong with that blackjack in your hand.

Mr. Jackson. Let's have quiet, please.

Mr. Kaplan. You have no right to invade or abridge the freedom
of speech, of association, of religion, of the press, or the right of
people peaceably to assemble.

You are doing this, of course. You have got no right to do it.

I would like to point out that these amendments and the Bill of
Rights, which our Founding Fathers found so important, because they
realized what might take place by just such inquisitions, that these
amendments Avere designed against barbarism, and against physical
and mental torture, all of which this committee is guilty of.

Further, I refuse to answer the question because the Constitution,
which you have sworn to uphold, forbids you from asking this
question.

Another ground for not answering this question is that I think as
I please, and I say what I think when I want to say it, and your black-
jack will not get me to say anything that I don't want to say.

Mr. Jackson. That is known as the freedom of speech in which you
are presently indulging, Mr. Kaplan.

Mr. Kaplan. For once your gavel is silent.

You have no right to inquire into anyone's conscience, and you can-
not force me to give up my coiiscience.

Further, since you obviously have tried me behind my back and
can produce no witness, and this is very obvious, and I would love for
my studio to take note of this before they blacklist me, you have
usurped the judicial rights without the witness, meaning myself,
having the right he would have in court, such as the right to be
confronted with witnesses against him and to be informed of the
nature and the cause of the accusation.

A further ground for not answering is a ground stated by President
Roosevelt, and I notice that your freedom clubbers boo his name, and
by President Roosevelt in a message to the Museum of Modern Art,
May 10, 1939, in which he stated :

The arts cannot survive except where men are free to be themselves and to be
in charge of the discipline of their bone energies and ardors. The conditions for
democracy and for art are one and the same thing. What we call liberty in
politics resulted in freedom of the arts, and it is no accident that you chose to
take away the economic security of the articulate artists, for in doing so you
hope to make many vulnerable to your dictates and to artistic corruption.

The Nazi leaders succeeded in these efforts, but you will fail.

The further ground for not answering this question is that I don't
believe that you have the right to search and seize my mind. I
wouldn't allow you to do that.

Still another ground is that I have a right in front of this Mr. X
of yours, this mystery witness that you cannot produce and cross-
examine him, for that reason, too, I shall not answer your question.

An additional ground is that you have no right to inflict cruel or
unusual jnmishment, and this is something that you arc doing every
day as long {is you are in existence.

Still another ground is that I Avill not be a party to any committee
whose acting chairman incites force and violence. I abhor force and
violence, and for that reason, too, I will not answer this question.

31747— 53— pt. 4 9

832 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

An additional ground is this one : The Nazis removed the music
of Mendelssohn, Meyerbeer, Offenbach, Ravel, and Mahler and count-
less others from the German scene. But the people, incidentally,
didn't forget that great music, the lilting melodies and new sounds*
and the strong rhythms.

Similarly the permanent chairman of this committee, one Harold
Velde, is trying to remove books from our libraries and collections
and colleges, and if he is successful in doing that, which I doubt
because I have great faith in the American people — how far is good
literature reduced or away from good music ?

In addition, since I am a musician, I would like to point out that
I cannot answer this question, because if great composers like
Beethoven, Chopin, were in America today and alive and they would
be facing this same inquisition, do you know what they would say?
"You have got no right to existence." Their music will live.

A further ground is, and this is one which I proudly invoke, and
since I know the tactics by watching this committee operate today,
that the minute I invoke this ground there will be no further questions,
and whisk, off the stand until a friendly witness appears to take all
the time, and so you can pat them on the back and not hear anything
new because you heard everything new that a friendly witness tells;
you have heard it in rehearsal.

I nevertheless, very proudly invoke article 5 of the Constitution,
which states that you cannot force me or compel me to be a witness
against myself, nor can I be deprived of life, liberty, or property with-
out due process of law.

And, incidentally, I defend this due process of law so that I can
once again face this mysterious Mr. X who has accused me, in quotes.

Mr. Tavenner. When you referred to article 5 of the Constitution
you meant the fifth amendment to the Constitution ?

Mr. Kaplan. That is right. I have a copy of the Constitution of
the United States here. It says article 5.

Mr. Tavenner. I merely wanted the record to show what you meant.

Mr. Kaplan. The fifth amendment is a very nice word, Mr. Taven-
ner. I don't know if you are quite familiar with what Justice Black
said about the fifth amendment. Would you like to hear it?

Mr. Jackson. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. Ta\^nner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Do you have any questions, Mr. Doyle ?

Mr. Doyle. I think perhaps I do. Not so much a question of this
eminent musician, but I think he has made a few remarks that I want
to make cleai* to him I tliinlv are not founded on fact.

Mr. Kaplan. Go ahead, Mr. Doyle. I am listening.

Mr. Doyle. Will you try to listen for just a moment with an open
mind, and feel that I am not going to criticize yovi, sir ?

Mr. Kaplan. I have been listening to you and I can assure you
I will be much more openminded than the members of this committee.

Mr. Doyle. Well, of course, if you feel that way about it, your
mind is not open toward any member of this committee, and that is
what I regret.

Mr. Kaplan. Mr. Doyle, you don't have a gavel, so I am sure it
is all right. You just proceed and I will listen very carefully.

Mr. Jackson. Your humor is very touching.

Mr. Kaplan. I refuse to listen and ignore the barbs of a barbarian.

COMlVrUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 833

Mr. Jackson. That is quite all right. If I am a barbarian, I am
glad to be out of your type of civilization.

Mr. ICaplan. Thank God for that statement.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Kaplan, of course in the field of music I am not
well versed. But I love music. I appreciate it as a layman. I feel
as you do that music is the international language. I have felt
that for many years. But it worries me when you, as a young Ameri-
can man, feel that any congressional committee is asking you to meet
with us because your father was a worker or because you are, as you
said, a Jew.

Now, the only reason I mention that at all, Mr. Kaplan, is — and I
never would have mentioned it if you yourself had'nt mentioned it
expressly as one reason why you are called to this committee. I wish
to assure you that that is not based in fact.

Mr. Kaplan. Would you give me the proof of that, please? Would
vou show me where this committee has ever been good to workers or
good to Jews ?

Mr. Jackson. I can't let that statement go unchallenged. I want
to add something here.

Mr. Doyle. Go ahead.

Mr. Jackson. I would like to say that perhaps you did not read the
statement that was read into the record this afternoon. I suppose
you consider the members of the American Newspaper Guild, CIO, to
be workers? We had a communication from them this afternoon.
We have had communications from a great many labor unions through-
out this land. We have had the active help and assistance of labor
leaders and of union members, so to sa}' that this committee is in any
Avay doing anything to damage the workingman is not a statement
which is based in fact.

No individual has ever been called before this committee because
he was a Catholic, Protestant, or Jew. He has been called because
there was pertinent information in sworn testimony which indicated
that he might be in r)ossession of information which could be of serv-
ice to the committee and to the Congress.

This committee is not antianything. I can assure you of that, sir.

Mr. Doyle. I just wish to emphasize, Mr. Kaplan, that I think I can
understand your feeling of bitterness. You have told me enough to
have me realize the picture, the conditions under which you were
raised and the struggle you had to gain your musical achievement,
and I wish to compliment you on your achieving the pinnacle of
success in your profession. But I would be less than a fellow Ameri-
can if I didn't say to you — because this may be and probably is the
last time I will ever see you — that I think you appraise this com-
mittee, as a committee of the United States Congress, essentially
wrong and in error.

I think perhaps the struggle you had to make your living and the
struggle your father made as a presser and as a worker, which you gave
to us so vividly, as you thought, a reason why you were called. I think
you are in error. I know you are in error, sir, and I would be less
than a fellow American if I didn't say that to you.

Mr. Kaplan. Can you tell me why I am called here ?

Mr. Doyle. Yes.

Mr. Kaplan. You have given me no proof.

834 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

Mr. Doyle. Yes. I am glad you asked me that because I wrote
down here — and this was my next observation — you said, "Why do
you ask me that question, Mr. Tavenner?" You remember asking
that question ?

Mr. Kaplan. I certainly do.

Mr. Doyle. I wrote down your exact words and I thought perhaps
I would try to sincerely and briefly tell you why I thought you were
here. And I want you to keep your mind open, if you will, enough
toward me as one of the committee members, who didn't ask for this
assignment. I can assure you it is not a picnic to sit on this committee
and listen to some of the untrue, unfounded things that are said to
it

Mr. Kaplan. Can you do something about getting me a job to-
morrow morning? I expect to be fired tonight. If you expect
my sympathy for you sitting here, you are wrong.

Mr. Doyle. No, no, bless your heart, I don't ask your sympathy or
sympathy from any other man.

Mr. Kaplan. But you will be working tomorrow, won't you, ]\Ir.
Doyle?

Mr. DoYT.E. Well, now, you asked Mr. Tavenner a question and you
asked me the same question.

Mr. Kaplan. I had to interrupt you at this point because I felt
my heart strings were being tugged.

Mr. Doyle. No, no. I still have a little heart in me though, al-
though you don't think we do. Don't you see that some of us are not
as heartless as you apparently think we are. Some of us still have a
lot of tolerance in our souls regardless of what color, creed, or race a
man is born in. You don't seem to think we do.

]\Ir. Kaplan. If you did, Mr. Doyle, you would get off of this com-
mittee as of this time.

Mr. Doyle. Not at all, not at all. And now let me answer you
briefly why you have been called here.

Fii-st, under Public Law 601, this is a committee assigned by the
United States Congress, your Congress, sir to investigate

Mv. Kaplan. Oh, yes, subversive propaganda. Will you tell me
what is subversive about my music that I wrote, if you please ? You
have been investigating subversive propaganda for 15 or 16 years,
and using up the taxpayers' money. Why the heck didn't you recom-
mend some legislation that would be for the good of the country?
Why? Why? Because this is a committee of smear.

Mr. Jackson. You are speaking of the Smith Act.

Mr. Kaplan. You know what I am speaking about. It is a smear.

^Ir. Jackson, Let me again interrupt for the record. The Internal
Security Act as passed incorporated a number of recommendations
made by this committee and originally contained in the Mundt-Nixon
bill. In addition to that there are several proposed bills in the Con-
gress now which were recommended by this committee.

Mr. Doyle, I am talking the way I am with you

Mr. Kaplan. After 15 or 16 years, Mr. Jackson, I wanted to make
that clear.

Excuse me, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. Dotle. I am talking with you as I am — ^you are a somewhat
younger man. We are not investigating music, bless you, not at all.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 835

That is not why you are here. I hope you know that. Apparently
you have misconstrued

Mr. Kaplan. I can see no otlier reason. My life has been with
music since I am 5 years old. I made that clear before.

Mr. Doyle. Under Public Law 601, with which you are apparently
familiar, in connection with Public Law 601, subsequent thereto in
the 81st Congress, Mr. Kaplan, your own Congress made this declara-
tion in Public Law 831

Mr. Kaplan. Are you going to take off on the McCarran Act again,
or concentration camps ? Yes ; I have heard this over television last
week. When you do that, how can you do that, when you came out and
posed as a friend of labor, and yet you are for this.

You know as well as I do the real liberals came out against that
act. And I think that is phony, Mr. Doyle. That is why I can't go
for this "bless you" business. I don't believe you. If I did believe you,
1 would have to say to you what I did before, "Get out of this com-
mittee, because this committee is corrupting you." And I tell you if
you persist in your line you are going to be sitting in this chair [indi-
cating]. You will maintain your position as a liberal — I asked no
pictures be taken.

Mr. Jackson. The Chair will not make any request so far as the
still photographers are concerned.

Mr. Kaplan. Your own counsel granted me that.

Mr. Jackson. The Chair will

Mr. Kaplan. Oh, I love the pliotographers, Mr. Jackson. I just
happened to see some photos recently and how they can be distorted.

Mr. Jackson. You should see some of mine.

Mr. Kaplan. Boy, I have.

Mr. Jackson. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. Tavenner. No.

Mr. Doyle. Let me make one statement. You evidently have a con-
sidered and final opinion of me as a member of this committee; you
have just stated it. Therefore, I will just conclude that, naturally,
anything I would say to you would be surplusage and wouldn't be
believed, so I am just sorry.

Mr. Kaplan. May I say this, Mr. Doyle

Mr. Doyle. I am very, very sorry.

Mr. Kaplan. I would believe you if you could produce for me this
evidence, this secret evidence, whatever it is, because I think it is
phony.

]Mr. Doyle. We are investigating

Mr. Kaplan. Produce this witness for me here and now. Name
him. I dare you to name this witness.

Mr. Jackson. If you want to produce the witness in court, simply
say no, you have never been a member of the Communist Party, and
you will have an opportunity to examine him and so will your counsel.

Mr. Kaplan. I would know better than to answer that. I don't
believe you are a lawyer — I believe you are the only member of this
committee who is not a lawyer. In any case, let me point out to you
that the trick that you woidd love to pull is to get everybody as
they come up, either for contempt or perjury if they didn't

Mr. Jackson. If we wanted to get anyone for contempt, I think we
would have had ample opportunity to do it on a number of occasions.

Mr. Kaplan. If you want to get perjury

836 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AKEA

!Mr. Jacksox. We will start with the people who would deny they
are Communists, when in fact our information shows they are. That
would be the logical starting point.

]Mr. Kaplan. Why don't you produce this witness? Wliy don't you
produce this Mr. X, this witness? You haven't got any, that is why.

JVIr. Jackson. Do you have any further questions ?

Mr. Tavenner. No.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.

Mr. Kaplan. You stated you would allow me to answer the question.

Mr. Jackson. I think after taking the abuse for this long the com-
mittee has

Mr. Kaplan. Wliat about the abuse I got ?

Mr. Jackson. We are just about even on abuse, I am afraid.

INIr. Kaplan. I am going to get further abuse, Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Jackson. You are excused now.

Mr. Kaplan. I can hardly say thanks to you.

Mr. Jackson. I don't expect your thanks.

Mr. Kaplan. You will never get it.

Mr. Jackson. Would this be a good time to take a short break, ]\Ir.
Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Jackson. The committee will take a break for 10 minutes, until
25 minutes of 4.

(Wliereupon, a recess was taken from 3 : 10 p. m. to 3:35 p. m.)

"tVliereupon, at 3 : 35 p. m., the proceedings were resumed, with
Kepresentatives Donald L. Jackson and Clyde Doyle present.)

Mr. Taa^nner. Mr. Chairman, may I inquire to see if Matilda Lewis
is in the hearing room ?

JSIr. Jackson. Is Matilda Lewis in the hearing room ?

(No response.)

Mr. Ta%tenner. Then I would like to call Daniel McCombe.

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand, please ?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. McCombe. I do.

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please.

TESTIMONY OF DAN McCOMBE, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL.
WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL

Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. McCombe. Dan McCombe.
]Nf r. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. McCombe. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the
record ?

Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.

Mr. Esterman. William B. Esterman.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside, Mr. McCombe ?

Mr. McCombe. Los Angeles County.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?

Mr. McCombe. United States of America,^ 1906.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere in the United States?

Mr. McCombe. State of Kansas.

COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 837

Mr. Tavenner, How long have you resided in Los Angeles?

Mr. McCoMBE. Since 1931.

Mr. Tavenner. Where did you live in 1947 ?

Mr. McCombe. Los Angeles County.

Mr. Taa-enner. Where in Los Angeles County ?

Mr, McCoMBE, Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that it has been
publicized that witnesses' homes have been stoned, I don't see how
this would do other than to aid and abet these terrorist organizations,
if I gave my address.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. McCombe, wall you state the general vicinity of
Los Angeles where you live, as a matter of completing the identifi-
cation of you ?

Mr. McCoMBE. I agree I am Dan McCombe. The subpena was
served on me, and the subpena was for me. You gentlemen have my
address, or you couldn't have sent me a subpena.

Mr. Tavenner. Is it the address, or was your address in 1947 the
address that now appears on your subpena?

Mr. McCoMBE. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. That will be sufficient for my purposes.

Mr. Jackson. Very well.

Mr. Ta's^nner. What is your occupation, Mr. McCombe ?

Mr. McCombe. Well, I have had many occupations.

Mr. Tavenner. "V\^iat has been your occupation in the last f^w
years ?

Mr. McCombe. How many years, sir?

Mr. Tavenner. Two er three years.

Mr. McCombe. Last 2 or 3 years I have been a barber.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Mr. McCombe, the committee is in possession of
information which, if correct, would indicate that you have a knowl-
edge of matters which the committee is investigating.

Before asking you specific questions relating to the extent of your
knowledge, I would like to ask you whether or not you have been a
member of the Communist Party in Los Angeles at any time since
1945.

(At this point Mr. McCombe conferred wih Mr. Esterman and Mr.
Marshall.)

Mr. McCombe. Mr. Chairman, gentlemen of the committee, I will
]"ef use to answer the question on the following grounds : In the first
place, there is a question of free speech involved, because all of my
adult life I have been what is referred to as a militant trade unionist
or left wing, if you please, an active organizer and an elected repre-
sentative of trade unions.

Recognized if, for instance, w^orking people in some cases are a bit
inarticulate, they have every right to organize and elect their repre-
sentatives to bargain either with the Government or with the employer.

Mr. Jackson. Speak just a little louder, please, Mr. McCombe.

Mr. McCombe. Thank you. I am confident and feel sure that this
iji an infringement of this right. The only purpose I can see that
M'ould come of getting a man like me down, that is, react against the
idea of trade unions and destruction of trade unions, which is an
infringement of this right which is guaranteed by the first amendment
of the Constitution.

838 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

I think we had a little example of that right here today. I wish to
express my appreciation to the members of the working press and the
citizens assembled, who saw fit to insist we have a public hearing. I
think it is easy to see that even with our constitutional guarantees,
unless we as citizens insist before any body that these guarantees be
recognized and observed, that we won't have a democratic America
very long.

Furthermore, I have the guaranteed right. No one can legally
force me to bear witness against myself. This is in the Constitution.
I have the greatest respect for it and I insist as a citizen for my
protection, for the protection of all trade unions or anyone who might
even see fit to disagree with the Congress or disagree with this com-
mittee that they have that right to disagree and cannot legally be
forced to bear witness against themselves. And I avail myself the
guarantees of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Jackson. Does that conclude your reasons, Mr. McCombe?

Mr. JMcCoMBE. Yes.

Mr. Jackson. Any questions, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. Ta\^nner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle?

Mr. DoTLE. No questions.

Mr. Jackson. I want to refute the claim that you have been called
here because you are in any way connected with organized labor, or
that you are an organizer or anything having to do with your official
capacity.

You were called, instead, as Mr. Tavenner.told you, because it was
felt that you might have information which would be of assistance to
this committee in attempting to do the job assigned to it by the Con-
gress. It has nothing to do with your relationship to organized labor.

Is there any i-eason why this witness should not be excused?

JNIr. Tavenner. May I ask this question, in light of the chairman's
statement ?

I would like to follow it up by stating that as far as the committee
is concerned, and I am concerned, we are not asking you any ques-
tions regarding organized labor, and if under those circumstances
you will tells us what you know about the Communist Party we would
be glad to hear it, again on my promise that I will ask you no questions
about organized labor.

Under those circumstances are you willing to proceed?

(At this point Mr. McCombe conferred with Mr. Esterman and
Mr. Marshall.)

Mr. McCombe. I don't wish to enter into any deal.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you speak a little louder ?

Mr. McCombe. I don't wish to enter into any deal or bargain with
the committee.

Mr. Tavenner. Then your statement that it was because of organized
labor that you would not answer the questions has absolutely nothing
to do with your refusal to answer the question?

Mr. McCombe, I want to say something

Mr. Esterman. Don't say it.

Mr. McCombe. This is a serious matter. It puzzles me, because
just yesterday I read what was purported to be the report of J. Edgar
Hoover in the press, which stated that there are 30,000 Communists
in the United States, and I presume that this is correct.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 839

Mr. Hoover reported that tliere are 30,000 Communists in the
United States. Now, are you gentlemen making a point that our
strong United States of more than 150 million population is endan-
gered by this 30,000 men and women who are members of the Com-
munist Party ?

Rather, I think it is sometliing else that you are operating on. I
think that you are afraid — I think you are acting against the 15 million
trade unionists and that this is your method of doing it.

Mr. Jackson. I can assure you that is not the case, sir. We are
not acting against any trade union. But as far as the point of num-
bers is concerned, it is well to understand that less than ly^ percent
of the people of Czechoslovakia were members of the Communist
Party, yet that nation was overthrown by those Communists. So
you see it is not a point of numbers.

Mr. McCoMBE. Then am I to believe that these 30,000 Communists,
in view of the fact that in France and in Italy the Communist Party
will be the biggest single party in one of those countries, respectively?

Mr. Tavenner. Not now.

Mr. McCoMBE. That you are frightened of the 30,000 Communists.
You must have another reason.

Mr. Tam3nner. Regardless of what your views may be on the sub-
ject, will you return now to my question? Will you answer my
question ?

Mr. McCoMBE. I am sorry ; I didn't get it.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you read the question ?

(Question read.)

Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question?

(At this point Mr. McCombe conferred with Mr. Esterman and
Mr. Marshall.)

Mr. Esterman. Is that the question?

Mr. Tavenner. That is the question.

Mr. Jackson. That is the question.

Mr. Ta\t.nner. I made a statement after that, but that is the
question.

Mr. McCoMBE. With all due respect to the committee, I don't wish
to enter into any deal or any sort of bargaining with the committee.
I just prefer to be treated as any witness without stipulation.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Jackson. Any question, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. Doyle. I think as long as the witness has referred to a state-
ment by J. Edgar Hoover, I should bring out that I have that state-
ment right here. I have the statement that you referred to, I am
sure. And J. Edgar Hoover, of course, is the FBI Director of our
Nation, and I assume that no matter what your opinion is of the
seriousness of the communistic subversive threat in this country, that
anyone with an open mind would figure that J. Edgar Hoover pretty
well knew what he was talking about.

Therefore, let me read you just one paragraph :

FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover has told Congress that Communists are infil-
trating every field of American activity and enemy espionage rings are working
more intensively than ever before in United States history.

Hoover issued these warnings in testimony, published today, before a House
Appropriations Subcommittee. The Director asked that FBI operative funds
be boosted by $6,700,000 to $7,000,000 for the fiscal year starting July 1.

840 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA

He explained that the request for more money was due almost ex-
clusively to mounting responsibility on the part of the FBI to safe-
guard the internal security.

Hoover said —

I will say to this couiiuittee that the enemy espionage rings are more intensively
operated today than they have ever been at any time, any previous time in the
history of our country.

As long as you, Mr. Witness, have said 30,000, let us get Mr. Hoover's
accurate figures.

"As a result," Mr. Hoover said —

the party has only 24,796 actual members vpho are the hard core of fanatics
of the drive for world revolution. He estimated that 50 jpercent of them are con-
centrated in the New York area. A year ago he estimated these hard core Reds
at 31,608.

Despite this numei*ical loss, Hoover said the Communists are as great a
menace as ever.

I thought, Mr. Chairman, the record should have probably the
statement that this witness referred to as being made by Mr. Hoover.

Mr. Jackson. It is so admitted.

Do you have any more questions, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. Doyle. No more questions.

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. Tavenner. I have nothing further.

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why this witness should not be
excused ?

Mr. Tavenner. No.

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused.

(The following telegram was received on April 9, 1953, and by order
of the chairman, is being included in the record of these hearings :)

Santa Monica, April 9, 1953.
Fbank S. Tavennek, Jr.,

Attorney, House Un-American Activities Committee,
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.
In testimony before the House Un-American Activities Committee members,
March 27, 1953, in Los Angeles, reference was made to a person identified only
as Joe Adams. For purposes of clarifying the record, I request it be known that
I, Joseph Edward Adams, professionally known as Joe Adams, disc jockey, com-
mercial announcer of Los Angeles, have never been affiliated with any subversive
group of any kind in any way, nor am I now so affiliated. I have never attended
any Communist Party meetings nor have I ever knowingly associated with any
member of the Communist Party, or any person in sympathy with Communist

Party objectives.

Joseph Edward Adams,
5083V2 West 21st Street, Los Angeles, Calif.

Mr. Jackson. Has Matilda Lewis come into the hearing room ?

(No response.)

Mr. Jackson. Evidently she has not arrived.

Mr. Counsel, do you have any further witnesses at this time?

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jackson. At this time the subcommittee will adjourn, and we
want to again thank the press, radio, and television of Los Angeles for
the excellent coverage of the hearing.

I thank the audience, both here in the hearing room on the various
days of the hearings and those who watched and listened to the pro-
ceedings through southern California.

COMMUNISt ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 841

We again express our thanks to the United States marshal, Mr.
Boyle and Mr. Stilwell, their deputies and all of the employees of the
Federal Building for their fine work and cooperation with the com-
mittee.

The subcommittee stands in adjournment.

(Whereupon, at 4 p. m., Wednesday, April 8, 1953, the hearing was
adjourned.)

INDEX

Individuals

Fag*

Adams, Joe 840

Adams, Joseph Edward 840

Albert, Sam 788-794 (testimony)

Bennett, Alice 776

Berkeley, Martin 769, 789, 790, 812

Biberman, Herbert 751, 812

Black, Justice 832

Boyle, James J 810, 841

Broun, Heyvvood-, 775

Byrne, Norman 748,749-752 (testimony)

Capone, Al 729

Carmen, Nathaniel 718

Cohn, Morris E 816-818

Collins, Richard 816, 817

Daggett, Charles 814

Daniel, Urcel 775, 776

Daugherty, Harry 729

Elliott, J. Paul 739

Engelhardt, Jack 784

Esterman, William B 736-748, 752-762, 784-795, 800-811, 815-816, 81^841

Foster, William Z 722

Frank, Richard 722, 723

Gerber, Serrill 757-762 (testimony)

Hauser, Dwight 798, 799

Hecht, Harold 717, 718, 812

Herndon, LeRoy 740, 750, 751, 753

Hoover, J. Edgar 735, 736, 745, 747, 794, 838-840

Howe, Jane 732, 750, 753

Judson, Alice 776

Kaplan, Sol 826-836 (testimony)

Keener, Leo 771

Kenny, Robert W 718-736, 749-752, 762-776, 778, 780

Kinney, Anne 732, 733, 740, 750, 753

Lang, David 817

Lardner, Ring, Jr 814

Lewis, Matilda 816, 818, 819, 836, 840

Lewis, Richard B. (Dick) 740, 750, 751

Lie, Trygve 779

Looschen, John 787-788 (testimony)

Love, Malcolm A 748

Lovett 728

Macia, Edith 758

Mann, Thomas 731

Margolis, Ben 787-788

Marshall Daniel G 736-748, 752-762, 784-795, 797-816, 819-841

Martin, Judge John D 725

McCombe, Dan 836-841 (testimony)

Meenes, George 819

Minkus, Abe 751

Mullen, Virginia 806. 807-811 (testimony)

Oliver, William E. (Bill) 761, 773-783 (testimony), 819

Ornitz, Samuel 751

Page, Albert 7&3, 764, 770

843

844 INDEX

Page

Page, Charles All)ert 7G2-773 (testimony)

Patterson, Ellis E 770

Posell, Rose 748, 752-757 (testimony), 784^787 (testimony)

Purcell, Gertrude 811-813 (testimony)

Roberts, Holland 732

Robinson, Jerome 800

Ross, Charles W 810

Rosser, Louis 759, 760

Runiley, Dr 778, 780

Ruskin, Shimen 819-820 (testimony)

Sayre, Dean 809

Shepro, Abraham 73IJ

Shepro, Ann 740

Shepro, Harry 736-748 (testimony)

Shor, Sol 801, 802

Shostakovich 827

Silver, Max 750. 751

Skadron, Bernard 800-807 (testimony)

Sloane, Robert 717, 718

Steinmetz, Harry C 718-736 (testimony)

Stilwell, Mr 841

Stimson, Henry L 730

Stoddard, Mr 743

Taft, Senator 735

Tarloff, Frank 816-818 (testimony)

Thomas, J. Parnell 729

Townsend. I^eo 817

Trumbo, Dalton 814

Wachsman, Robert 800, 810, 812-815 (testimony)

Wagner, Murry (Murray) 797-800 (testimony)

Wilenchick, Clement 815-816 (testimony)

Young. Ned (Nedrick) 820,821-826 (testimony)

Organizations

American Association of University Professors 731

American Civil Liberties Union 731

American Federation of Labor 781, 782

American Federation of Teachers 719.

721-726, 732, 733, 737-741, 750, 753, 784

American Federation of Television and Radio Artists 717, 718

American League Against War and Fascism 751

American League for Peace and Democracy 751

American Legion 807, 809

American Newspaper Guild 782, 783, 819, 833

The American Psychological Association 731

Amherst College 737

Art Student College (New York) 816

Brooklyn College 79S. 817

California Labor Scliool 775

Central Labor Council , 737

Central Trades and Labor Council 720, 721

Civil Service Commission 771

College of the City of New York 798

Columbia University 811

Congress of Industrial Organizations 781, 782, 783,, 819

Crane College 801

Curtis Institute of Music (Philadelphia) 826. 827

Department of State 765, 771, 772

Ethical Cultural School 815

Federal Bureau of Investigation 765, 766,795,839,840

Fox Studio 788

Harvard University 749, 762

Hunter College 811

.left'erson School 763, 764

Los Angeles Board of Education 744

INDEX 845

Page

Los Angeles City Board of Education 785

Los Angeles City College 750

Los Angeles Newspaper Guild 775-777, 781, 782, 819

McManville College 718

Metropolitan College of Law 737

Metro-Goldwyn-Mayei- 766,767

National Military School 770

Nazi-Russian Pact 812

New York University 719

Oregon State Normal School 718

Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts 816

Purdue University 719

Radio Writers' Guild 717, 718

Red Cross 771

Royal Academy of Music 789

San Diego State College 719

San Francisco State College 719

ti.n-een Writers' Guild 768

Soc'iety of Sigma Xi 731

The Society for Social Responsibility In Science 731

Sorbonne University 762

Stanford University 718, 719, 748

Students Academy of Dramatic Art (New York) 816

Teachers' Union 722

Twentieth Century-Fox Studio 787

United Nations 750, 779, 780

United States Army 750

United States Foreign Service 764, 765, 769

United States Marine Corps 749, 771

United States Naval Training Station 719

University of California 719, 748, 749, 762, 763, 766

University of California it Berkeley 752

University of California at Los Angeles 737, 748, 752, 757, 760, 798, §01

University of Cincinnati /'^*'*=s:r '^^^

University of Oregon ._ .i .. 749

University of Pennsylvania ?/r**^ -^ 814

University of the Philippines „ I_l ,— 718

University of Southern California 719, 737

University of Washington 718

Young Communist League 722, 760, 761

Pttblications

The Communist 723

Daily Worker 731, 763, 778

Foreign Service Register 771

Free Press 778

Los Angeles Evening Herald-Express 774, 776

New York Times 827

People's Daily World 778

Toward Soviet America 722

United Press 735

Virginia Quarterly Review 770

Wall Street Journal 778

o