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Full text of "Investigation of communist activities in the Pacific Northwest area. Hearings"

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-II 



Given By 
V, S. SUPT. OF DOCUMENTS 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE 
PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA— Part 7 (SEATTLE) 






HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

]OMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 



JUNE 18, 1954 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities 



INCLUDING INDEX 




UNITED STATES 

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICB 

WASHINGTON : 1954 




'\ . 



Boston Public trorary 
Guperintenderit of DoCutneats 

OCT 27 1954 



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COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 

United States House of Representatives 

HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois, Chairman 

BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York FRANCIS B. WALTER, Pennsylvania 

DONALD L. JACKSON, California MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri 

KIT CLARDY, Michigan CLYDE DOYLE, California 

GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio JAMES B. FRAZIER, Je., Tennessee 

Robert L. Kunzig, Counsel 

Fraxk S. Tavenxer, Jr., Counsel 

Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk 

Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research 

CODRTXEY E. OwEXS, Chief Investigator 

II 



CONTENTS 



June 18, 1954, testimony of— Page 

Eugene V. Dennett (resumed) 6445 

Statement of Kenneth A. MacDonald 6449 

Testimony of Eugene V. Dennett (resumed) 6449 

Abraham Charles Keller 6454 

Harold W. Sunoo 6489 

Index i 

III 



Public Law 601, 79th Congress 

The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter 
753, 2d session, which provides : 

Be it enacted 6y the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
of America, in Congress assembled, * * * 

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

Rule X 

SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES 

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members. 

RXTLE XI 

POWERS AND DtrriES OF COMMITTEES 
• *•*••« 

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities. 
(A) Un-American activities. 

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit- 
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, 
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United 
States, (ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-Amer- 
ican propaganda that is instigated from foreign coimtries or of a domestic origin 
and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranted by our 
Constitution, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid 
Congress in any necessary remedial legislation. 

Tlie Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such in- 
vestigation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such 
imes and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, 
las recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
t such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Supenas may be issued under 
he signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
lember designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person 
esignated by any such chairman or member. 



RULES ADOPTED BY THE S3d CONGRESS 
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1953 



i,.'.,^ Rule X 

STANDING COMMITTEES 

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress, 
the following standing committees : 

* * * ^ if * * 

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members. 
******* 

Rule XI 

powers and duties of committees 



17. Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(a) Un-American activities. 

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee^ 
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char- 
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa- 
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and, 
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-f 
tion. and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress 
in any necessary remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi 
gation, together wtih such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times 
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has 
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and •■ 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued undei 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig- 
nated by any such chairman or member. 



i 



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VI 



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INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIYITIES IN THE 
PACIFIC NOETHWEST AEEA— Part 7 (SEATTL E) 



miDAY, JUNE 18, 1954 

United States House of Eepresentatr^s, 

Subcommittee of the Committee on 

Un-American Activities, 



Seattle, Wash. 



public hearing 



The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities 
met, pursuant to recess, at 9 a. m., in room 402, County-City Building, 
Seattle, Wash., Hon. Donald L. Jackson (chairman) presiding. 

Committee members present: Representatives Donald L. Jackson, 
Gordon H. Scherer, and Clyde Doyle. 

Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; William 
A. Wlieeler, staff investigator; and Thomas W. Beale, clerk. 

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order. 

The Chair would like to make an announcement at this time to the 
effect that due to the heavy schedule and the fact that a number of 
important witnesses have not been heard up to this time the committee 
will be in session tomorrow, Saturday, from 9 a. m. until 5 o'clock in 
the afternoon. 

Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Counsel? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. Call your first witness. 

(Whereupon the committee proceeded to hear further testimony of 
Barbara Hartle, which is printed in Part 3 of this title, after which, 
the committee proceeded as follows:) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Eugene V. Dennett. 

?UETHER TESTIMONY OE EUGENE V. BENNETT, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, KENNETH A. MacDONALD 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please ? 
. In the testimony you are about to give before this subcommittee, do 
70U solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and 
lothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr, Dennett. I will. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Dennett, accompanied by his 
30unsel, talked with me this morning before entering the hearing 
'com. He desires to appear again before the committee, and I think 
[ should let him say just what his purpose in appearing is. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. 

6445 



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6446 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Dennett. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I have 
observed very carefully the public reaction to my prior appearance. 
I am not satisfied that the public has gotten a clear enou<^h picture of !| 
the situation, and it is especially confusing to the members of my own 
organization, the United Steelworkers of America, Local 1208. As a 
consequence, they have taken some actions which I think are ill advised, m 
largely because they do not know the story. And I believe the onlyBj^ 
way that the story can be told is here. 1 1 

Mr. Jackson. May I interupt you at this point? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. You refer to telling a story. My 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. ||t 

Mr. Jackson. By that do you mean that you are willing to answei 
all questions that this committee may propound to you with reference 
to your alleged Communist Party activities in the past? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. By that do you mean that you will answer under oath, 
and not by pleading the fifth amendment, as to your full knowledge oJ j li 
the matters which the committee desires to inquire about ? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. I think that in that connection it shoul 
be made known that I did have some doubts in my mind in my earliei 
appearance as to the use of the fifth amendment. I want it to Ix 
clearly understood that it is my distinct understanding, with advia 
of counsel and others, that the fifth amendment is a very proper instru 
ment for people to use, but I think that in my particular case, aftei 
going over the situation very carefully with my counsel, I find tha' ]li 
there is no point in the testimony or in the evidence that I would b<_^iea 
able to give in an appearance here which necessitates my invoking th( 
fifth amendment any further. I think that we were acting according 
to the best knowledge that existed between counsel and myself at th( 
time, but since then I have gone over it more carefully and more full} 
with counsel and counsel has advised me that he sees no reason whj 
it should be necessary to do so. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, may the record show affirmatively tha 
at no time during the previous interrogation of the witness was hii| 
right to take the provisions of the fifth amendment questioned in an^ 
way. I think it should be affirmatively in the record that his righj 
was reserved in that respect and that the decision to so use the fiftl 
amendment was the decision arrived at by the witness. 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. With no compulsion on either side by the committee 

Mr. Tavknner. I want to ask you a few preliminary questions be 
fore you testify further. ^ 1' j^j 

^ From your experience in the Communist Party, were you in a posi Ij^ 
tion to have firsthand knowledge of the strategy used by the Commu If^jj 
nist Party in this particular area in the promotion of its own inter lij^ 
tests? i|]y 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you in a position to know and become person 
ally acquainted with the leadership of the Communist Party in thi: 
area ? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 



On 

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COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6447 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Did you attend fraction meetings of the Communist 
Party and branch meetings of the Communist Party and therefrom 
acquire knowledge as to the membership of the Communist Party? 

(At this point Mr. Jackson left the hearing room.) 

Mr. Dennett. I certainly did those things. My memory is very 
poor with respect to some of those matters, because it goes back a very 
long way. 

Understand, please 

Mr. Tavenner. I want to be certain that in your appearance here 
jou propose to advise this committee fully as to all the knowledge you 
have regarding the strategy used by the Communist Party, the policy 
of the Communist Party, and to give this committee the names of all 
persons with whom you came in contact within the Communist Party, 
particularly those who were outstanding leaders in the Communist 

Mr. Dennett. I will give you the best information that I possibly 
can, sir, with respect to all the matters involved. 

In fairness to the committee and to everyone, I think that it is proper 
that any person who swears affirmatively that they know so-and-so to 
be such-and-such a member — I think that in all fairness to all persons 
concerned it should only be done when you can do so of your own 
knowledge. 

Mr. Tavenner. But you do Imow when you attended a closed Com- 
munist Party meeting? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. I think, Mr. Tavenner, that the record should show that 
the attorney who is present this morning with the witness, the distin- 
guished member of the bar, Mr. MacDonald, is the same attorney who 
appeared with him previously. 

Mr. ScHERER. The record will so show. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, in the light of this explanation and 
this statement, I recommend to you that you hear this witness fully. 

One very serious problem, however, is created here. We are work- 
ing under a very tight time schedule. This comes at a very late time 
in the course of this hearing 



'to 



Mr. ScHERER. Just a moment. I don't think the witness is hearing 
what you say. 

Mr. Dennett. I am. I hear it. 

Mr. Tavenner. So I think the committee should give some consid- 
eration to the question as to how far you will examine this witness now. 
I think you will have to abandon the rest of your hearing if you pro- 
pose to go fully into his knowledge of Communist Party activities. 

(At this point Mr. Jackson returned to the hearing room.) 

Mr. Tavenner. That is, if I am at all correct in my assumption 
of what his knowledge is. 

Mr. Dennett. I believe you are quite correct, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, the Chair will state that he has discussed 
this matter with counsel and that upon the showing of willingness on 
the part of the witness to further elaborate upon his previous testi- 
mony, the subcommittee will leave it within the discretion of counsel 
and the investigating staff as to the future interrogation of the present 
witness. 

48069—54 — pt. 7 2 



6448 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I would like, under those circum- 
stances, to have it distinctly understood between myself and the wit- 
ness and his counsel that any examination that it is not possible to 
complete now will be continued at a later date and we would expect 
the same cooperation which you have promised now. 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

I would like at this moment to make one statement and make it very 
clear to all concerned : that I am not now a member of the Communist 
Party, as alleged in the expulsion notice earlier referred to by the 
Communist Party, nor am I a member of the Socialist "Workers Party 
nor any other political party, and I want that to be clearly and dis- 
tinctly understood on the record, so that everyone may understand 
that fact and fully appreciate the extent to which the Communist 
Party has slandered and libeled me no end. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, the record is, I believe, in light of the 
statement of the witness, quite clear upon that point. 

The Chair would like to ask only one question before the witness 
is excused. 

I beg your pardon, counsel. 

It appears that there is a question pending. 

Mr. Tavenner. I haven't gotten a specific reply to my statement 
about your cooperation in the event that we are not, during the course 
of our hearing here, permitted to complete our interrogation of you. 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

May I explain that just this way, please, in substantiation of the 
statement you just made? 

I want it clearly understood that there is no deal on with anybody. 
I don't make deals; I refuse to make deals. As a matter of fact, I 
have refrained from discussing this matter because several Govern- 
ment representatives at various times have attempted to make deals 
with me. I resent such an approach, and therefore what I have to say 
will be said without any compulsion or any deal or anything of the 
kind with anyone. 

I think that it is necessary that some of this information be made 
known. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Witness, this is no deal. At the same time, I 
don't want you to take this witness stand and state your own version 
of this situation for 10 minutes and then refuse to continue to testify 
at a later date. 

That is my only point, and I want a distinct understanding about 
that. 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir, I understand. ' 

Mr. Tavenner. That is no deal. 

Mr. Dennett. That is right. But I just wanted it clearly under- 
stood by all concerned. 

^ I assure you, sir, it is my intention to speak freely and fully at all 
times in this matter. 

Mr. Tavenner. That is right. It is only your motives that I am 
interested in. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. I would like to ask the witness this: It is clearly 
understood then that no representative of this committee has ap- 
proached you any way since you have testified ? 






COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6449 

Mr. Dennett. That is correct. 

Mr. ScHERER. And this is wholly voluntary upon your part ? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. I want the record to be straight. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have anything further, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. MacDonald. Mr. Tavenner, could I reply to your statement, 

too? 

Mr. Jackson. I would prefer to excuse the witness 

Mr. MacDonald. Mr. Tavenner asked me as to my understanding 
as his counsel, and I would like to set that record precisely straight, 
too. 

Mr. Jackson. Would you withhold it for just a moment, please ? 

Mr. MacDonald. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be 
excused at this time, Mr. Counsel ? 

(At this point Mr. Tavenner conferred with Mr. Jackson.) 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused only for the immediate 
moment because under the rules of the committee counsel would other- 
wise not be entitled to address the committee. 

(Witness temporarily excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Counsel may address the committee at this time. 

Mr. MacDonald. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will make my 
statement brief and to the point. 

STATEMENT OF KENNETH A. MacDONALD 

Mr. Tavenner had asked the witness and had asked me as his counsel 
as to the understanding that he was attempting to arrive at. The wit- 
ness explained precisely and finally his understanding, and I wish the 
record to be clear, without any doubt, that I, as his counsel, along with 
Mr. Dennett — and have the record again state that this is entirely vol- 
untary on the part of Mr. Dennett, that there have been no approaches 
by your committee or anybody on your committee, and that Mr. Den- 
nett wants to give to your committee the full information or rather 
extensive knowledge about the higher level activities of the Communist 
Party up until 1947, and I wish it to be clear that this will be a full 
statement to the very best of his recollection, and he is placing himself 
at your disposal to assist in the inquiry which you are conducting. 

I think that is your understanding? 

Mr. Dennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. I thank counsel for his statement and the 
witness is now recalled to the stand. 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF EUGENE V. DENNETT, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, KENNETH A. MacDONALD 

Mr. Tavenner. You have advised the committee, Mr. Dennett, that 
you desire to come back and state the facts? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliich you did not state before. 

Now you made a statement 

Mr. Dennett. What I said were facts before. 

Mr. Tavenner. You stated a few minutes earlier that you wanted 
the record to show that you are not a member of the Communist Party 



6450 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

now and you have not been since the period when you were expelled. 
I believe you made that statement. 

Mr. Dennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now you will recall your questioning^ earlier, I be- 
lieve. 'Wlien I presented you with that question, I did not contend 
that you are now a member of the Communist Party. I told you that 
the witness had testified that you had been expelled from the party ; 
so that you were g:iven the full opportunity to put that on record when 
you appeared first before this committee. 

You desire to do so now, but you did not at that time ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Dennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now will you tell the committee, please, when you 
first became a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Dennett. Late in 1931. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long were you a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Dennett. At that time I was a member continuously until about 
1933 — some time in 1933 or 1934, and was dropped from membership 
for a period of about a year. During that time I was away ; I was in 
the CCC camp. When 1 came back from the CCC's, I found employ- j 
ment on the waterfront, and shortly after I attained some prominence 
on the waterfront in union activities. I was reregistered and signed 
again for membership in the Communist Party. 

Then I was a member in continuous standing from that period in 
1935 until I was inducted into the service in 1943. During my absence 
from this area and while I was in the service, I was not a member of 
the Communist Party. 

Upon my return from the service in 1945 — well, I returned from the 
service late in 1945 but was not reregistered in the party in 1945, not 
until the reregistration in 1946, and then I was immediately involved 
in controversy over policy and struggle, which was a continuation of 
what had started before I went into the service, and it wound up with 
this slanderous expulsion notice which was circulated far and wide. 
Not only that one, but I understand two others w^ere circulated as well, 
misrepresenting my political views and misrepresenting everything 
about me and my wife. 

Mr. Tavenner. And that occurred at what date? 

Mr. Dennett. That was in October of 1947, I believe. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been affiliated in any way with the Com- 
munist Party since 1947? 

Mr. Dennetf. I have not. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, very briefly — 
because at this time we can go into it only in a very brief way — what 
your activity has been in the Communist Party, that is, the general 
nature of your activity, the prominence of your work, the major 
Communist Party activities in which you engaged? And you may 
only just mention them rather than discuss them at this time. 

Mr. Dennett. In 1932 I was district agit-prop. That is com- 
parable to an educational director, I believe, in recent years. Lat£>r 
I was a section organizer. Later I was a member of the district com- 
mittee, and at many times throughout the period I was a member of 
the district bureau — I believe nowadays it is called the executive 
committee. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6451 

At two periods I was a member of the district secretariat. That is 
a very small body of 2 or 3 persons who are responsible for the daily 
activities of the party. 

Mr. Tavenner. Having held those prominent positions within the 
Communist Party, you were in a position to know the inner workings 
of the Communist Party very well, weren't you ? 

Mr. Dennett. To the best of my knowledge, I certainly was. Some 
people seem.ed to think that some things were withheld from me, but 
I don't see how it could be. To the best of my knowledge, I certainly 
knew what was going on. 

Mr. Tavenner. Would you prefer to state at this time, while you 
are publicly on the witness stand, the reasons for your expulsion and, 
referring to the malignment of which you spoke, the character of it 
and the circumstances under which you left the Communist Party? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. Upon my return from the service, most 
everything seemed quite strange to me from what I had understood to 
be the policies and the practices of the party. Many things seemed 
very strange to me upon such return. They were not consistent with 
what I understood to be the intent and purpose of the party organiza- 
tion and policy. I found myself in very firm disagreement over policies 
connected with veterans' organization, over policies about civil rights, 
over policies in connection with concentration in industry. I found 
myself in firm disagreement on nearly every important policy ques- 
tion. As a consequence, there was continuous friction between myself 
and leaders whom I had known for many years, and it ultimately led 
to an accusation that I was some kind of an FBI agent, and that propa- 
ganda was circulated far and wide, and over a period of about 6 
months the disciplinary body of the party held my case in its lap, 
kicked it around, and finally at my insistence made a decision, and the 
decision resulted in this expulsion. 

Mr. Tavenner. I think that was fairly clear from the expulsion 
letter, which I have presented in evidence as Hartle Exhibit No. 1. 

Mr. Dennett. Correct. 

Mr. Tav'enner. You will recall that I read one paragraph to you 
from that document. 

Mr. Dennett. I remember your doing it. I don't remember the 
paragraph now. 

Mr. Tavenner. That paragraph in the very first sentence referred 
to your opposition to the leadership in the Communist Party and, 
coupled with it, was the stool pigeoning referred to, and which you 
now refer to. 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. Do you want some explanation of that ? 

Mr. Ta^^nner. Well, I think at this time it is not so much a ques- 
tion of the committee extending its interrogation of you, as it is to 
^ive you the opportunity to appear here as you requested. 

Mr. Dennett, I appreciate that, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee will want to, necessarily, interrogate 
you very fully, but I doubt that it can be done now. 

Has this testimony so far adequately covered what you wanted to 
say to the committee at this time ? 

Mr. Dennett. Well, I think that it would be difficult to say all that 

j [ want to say without infringing on the time that you say you are 

limited to. t feel that there is a need to call attention to those prac- 

ices which are essentially undemocratic, which I fear some people in 



6452 COMMXTNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTITWEST AREA 

their anxiety to fight the Communists themselves often engage in, and 
I think that constitutes a real danger and threat to us. And I hope 
in the course of my testimony and appearance before you and the com- 
mittee, whoever may be assigned to that, that it will be possible to go 
into that very fully. 

^ I feel that the violation of democratic procedure, the violation of 
civil rights is something which has been looked upon too lightly in 
too many quarters, and I have seen too many examples and I have 
had too many experiences which have caused me to feel that there is 
a real threatening menace in that respect. I wouldn't say that it is 
all confined to the Communist Party alone. I think they have made 
a contribution in that direction which I detest. , 

Mr. ScHERER. May I interrupt, Mr. Chairman ? I 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. Since you have been subpenaed by this committee, up 
to the present moment do you feel that any of your civil rights have 
been violated by any action of this committee or its staff ? 
Mr. Dennett. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. In that connection, I should like to say to the witness 
that constructive criticism of this committee or of any of the members 
of this committee or of the staff of the committee is always in order. 
We have never taken umbrage at such criticism, as distinguished from 
destructive criticism which aims at the detruction of all of the congres- 
sional rights and obligations to investigate. 

Out of such constructive criticism of our methods of procedure have | 
come a code of rules of procedure. I believe you received a copy of it. 
Mr. Dennett. Through my counsel I did. 

Mr. Jackson. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only com- 
mittee of the Congress investigating in the many fields which has such j 
a code of procedure, a code of procedure which I believe is sound and 
which I believe does a great deal to protect the basic fundamental! 
American rights of witnesses who appear before the committee. 

I should at this time pay a considerable amount of credit to thef 
gentleman from California, Mr. Doyle, who was a member of the sub- ' 
committee who drafted these rules of procedure. I think it is im- 
portant for everyone to realize that this is not a hit-or-miss proposi- 
tion ; we are not today going out on street corners and tapping someone j 
on the shoulder and hailing them into the witness chair simply because j 
they might look subversive; they are brought in under a certain set| 
code of procedure. And I believe that if any abuse is taken during the^^ 
course of these hearings, that abuse is taken in large part by those of 
us who sit up here. 

Mr. Scherer. And they are brought in after a thorough and com- 
plete investigation by what we feel is a very competent staff. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, it might be appropriate for me to call, 
attention at this point to the fact that we not only invite constructive 
criticism, but under Public Law 601, section 753 or rather page 753 oi 
section 2 of that law, we are invited and expected to report to Congress \ 
not only to the extent of subversive and un-American propaganda 
activities in the United States, but all questions in relation thereto that 
would aid Congress in any remedial legislation. 

As the chairman knows, I always ask before I get through with the 
friendly witnesses if there is any constructive suggestion they have 



 



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COMAnJNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6453 

which will help this committee fulfill its full obligation to the United 
States Congress in making recommendations for remedial legislation, 
and perhaps this witness in due time will be able to help us with his 
constructive suggestions on that subject. 

Now may I just call attention, Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact 
that you have mentioned the rules — I appreciate your observation of 
my part in it — but rule 10 should be pointed out especially, Mr. Chair- 
man, because I think it is the first time in history of Congress that any 
such rule has ever been promulgated, and may I just read that? 

RULE X. RIGHTS OF PERSONS AFFECTED BY HEARING 

A. Where practicable, any person named in a public hearing before the com- 
mittee or any subcommittee as subversive, Fascist, Communist, or affiliated 
with one or more subversive-front organizations, v^^ho has not been previously so 
named, shall, within a reasonable time thereafter, be notified by registered letter, 
to the address last known to the committee, of such fact, including — 

(1) a statement that he has been so named; 

(2) the date and place of said hearing ; 

(3) the name of the person who so testified ; 

(4) the name of the subversive. Fascist, Communist, or front organization 
with which he has been identified ; and 

(5) a copy of the printed rules of procedure of the committee. 

B. Any person, so notified, who believes that his character or reputation has 
been adversely affected or to whom has been imputed subversive activity, may 
within 15 days after receipt of said notice : 

( 1 ) Communicate with the counsel of the committee, and/or 

(2) Request to appear at his own expense in person before the committee 
or any subcommittee thereof in public session and give testimony in denial 
or affirmation relevant and germane to the subject of the investigation. 

C. Any such person testifying under the provisions of B (2) above shall be 
accorded the same privileges as any other witness appearing before the committee 
and may be questioned concerning any matter relevant and germane to the subject 
of the investigation. 

Again, I think it is a historical fact in congressional procedures — no 
other committee of Congress, either of the House or the Senate, has 
ever obligated itself to send notice to any person named before the 
committee in an investigation and giving that person specific procedure 
by which that person can clear any inference or any statement of any- 
thing else which he feels might be detrimental to his reputation. 

Mr. Jacksost. Thank you, Mr. Doyle. 

Do you have anything further, Mr. Counsel, before this witness is 
excused ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, I have not, Mr. Chairman, other than to state 
that I do not believe time is available now to question the witness 
regarding the matters he has suggested existed within the party, 
because I know from examination of other witnesses on that subject 
that it is bound to be extensive. 

However, if the witness by what he said meant to offer some criticism 
to this committee in its own manner of functioning, I have no objection 
to that. 

Mr. Dennett. I had no reference to that, sir, in this proceeding. 

(There followed at this point a series of questions and answers which 
were physically stricken from the record at the request of the Chair.) 

Mr. Jackson. Is there anything further ? 

Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. DoTLE. I do want to ask this one question. 

As I understand it now, you have returned here and you are not 
going to plead the fifth amendment, is that correct ? 



6454 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA vj 

Mr. Dennett. That is correct. ; 

Mr. Doyle. Nor any other amendment of the Constitution, I pre- i 
siune — because we have even had pleaded the 14th amendment. 

Mr, Dennett. I think I read something to that effect in some of  
the newspapers. 

Mr. Doyle. And your answer is that you are not going to plead 
any of the amendments of the Constitution ? 

Mr. Dennett. My answer, sir, is that I am going to testify to the 
best of my knowledge to what I know and what I can tell you in good 
conscience about the facts. 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair has one additional question to ask. 

Have you finished what you were knitting ? 

Mr. Dennett. Counsel insisted that I not bring that along. I 
wanted to because it has not been finished. It is a stole and it will 
be finished probably by the time the hearings are over. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. The witness is excused. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Will counsel call the next witness. 

Mr. Tavennee. Dr. Abraham Charles Keller. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you 
are about to give before this subcommittee you will tell the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Dr. Keller. I do. 

May I make a request, sir ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. 

Dr. Keller. I should prefer not to be on television. I think when 
you look at my poor face and my bald head, you will agree with me. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. 

Dr. Keller. Andmay I have a drink of water? Il 

Mr. Jackson. The television cameras will please refrain from pho- 1 
tographing the witness during the course of his testimony. . 

Before we proceed the committee will take a brief recess. I » 

(Whereupon, at 11 : 08 a. m., the hearing was recessed, to recon- 
vene at 11 : 20 a.m.) 

(Whereupon, at 11 : 20 a. m., the hearing was reconvened.) 

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order. 

Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Counsel? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

Will you state your name, please, sir? 

TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM CHARLES KELLER, ACCOMPANIED 
BY COUNSEL, JOHN S. HARLOW AND BENJAMIN S. ASIA 

Dr. Keller. I am Dr. Abraham Charles Keller. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel, Dr. Keller? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Counsel, will you identify yourself, please? 

Mr. Harlow. John S. Harlow of the Seattle bar. 

Mr. Asia. Benjamin S. Asia of the Seattle bar. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and wliere were you born. Dr. Keller? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I was born in Cleveland, Ohio, February 21, 1916. 

Mr. Tavenner. A^Hiere do you now reside? 

Dr. Keller. I live at 2107 East 54th Street in Seattle. 



COMMXTNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6455 

Mr, Tavenner. What is your occupation? 

Dr. Keller. I am an associate professor, sir, at the University of 
Washington. 

Mr, Tax^nner, Will you tell the committee, please, what your for- 
mal educational training has been? 

Dr. Keller. Well, sir, I was educated in the public schools of Cleve- 
land, Ohio. I attended for the first 2 years of my college training Fenn 
College in Cleveland, Ohio, with a scholarship from that institution 
and received my B. A. and M. A. at Ohio State University. 

Mr. Tavenner. In what year? 
" Dr. Keller, In 1936 and 1937, respectively, 

I then went to the University of California in Berkeley, where I 
did graduate work, receiving a doctor's degree in 1946. 
. Mr. Tavenner. When did you enter the school at Berkeley? 

Dr. Keller, In the fall term of 1937, I suppose that was August. 

Mr, Tavenner, You entered the University of California in the 
fall of 1937? 

Dr. Keller, I might say, so that you don't think it took me quite 
that long to receive the doctorate, that there were some interruptions. 

Mr, Tavenner, ^Yhat were those interruptions? 

Dr, Keller, I was a half-time teacher, which is called teaching as- 
sistant, in French there, from 1937 to 1941, as I recollect. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were there any interruptions during that period, 
between 1937 and 1941? 

Dr. Keller. No, No, not except summers, and then I never regis- 
tered again as a student after that but only worked on my Ph. D. dis- 
sertation, 

Mr, Tavenner, Where did you reside when you were a student at 
the University of California? 

Dr, Keller. Most of the time on Delaware Street. The exact ad- 
dress slips me, I suppose I could recall that, if it is germane, I don't 
remember the exact address right offhand, 

Mr. Tavenner. Was that in Berkeley? 

Dr. Keller. In Berkeley, yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. TV^iat other addresses did you have in Berkeley? 

Dr. Keller. Up to the time of about 1941, that was the only one 
if I am not mistaken. 

In 1941, after being married, I lived in a house on McGee Street. 

Mr, Tavenner, Was it 2429 McGee Street? 

Dr, Keller, I am sure that is right, sir, 

Mr, Tavenner, How long did you live there ? 

Dr. Keller. I lived there until some time in 1946, except that in the 
school year 1945 to 1946, 1, myself, taught in Stockton, Calif., and be- 
cause of the housing situation I lived there alone and came back to 
Berkeley on most weekends, so that I think officially I should say I did 
live at that McGee address until, say, June of 1946. 

Mr. Tavenner, In what institution did you teach at Stockton ? 

Dr, Keller. In Stockton, Calif., sir, that was the Stockton Junior 
College. 

Mr. Tavenner. And you taught there for how long ? 

Dr. Keller. One school year — a little short of that, because, as I 
recall, I got the job in late October or something like that. This was 
just after the end of the war, you remember. 

48069— 54— pt. 7 3 



I 



I. 



6456 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. What was your next teaching assignment ? 1 

Dr. Keller. My next one was at Harvard University, where I 
taught for 2 years, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. That would have been 1947 and 1948 'i 

Dr. Keller. Well, that would have been September 1946 to the end ,^ 
of the school year in June of 1948. h 

Mr. Tavenner. In what field did you teach ? \ 

Dr. Keller. I taught French and comparative literature there. j 

Mr. Tavenner, What was your next teaching assignment ? I 

Dr. Keller. I then came to the University of Washington, where i 
I have been continuously since that time, with the interruption of only | 
1 year. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your field at the University of Washington ? i 

Dr. Keller. I particularly teach French language and literature, i 
with occasionally a course in what we call general studies, but the bulk i 
of my time is occupied with the study and teaching of French Ian- \ 
guage and literature. I 

Mr. Tavenner. "Wliile you were a student at Berkeley in 1939, did i 
you travel to France ? 

Dr. Keleer. Would you repeat the date, please, sir ? 

Mr. Tavenner. 1939. 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir, in the summer of 1939 I went to France ; yes, 
sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were issued a passport, of course ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir ; I was. 

Mr. Tavenner. And did you apply on a subsequent date for the re- 
newal of the passport ? 

Dr. Keller. I have no recollection to applying for a renewal of that 
passport, because I believe it expired after a certain length of time. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, were you issued a passport subsequent to 1939 ? [:i 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir ; I was issued a passport, I believe, in — it was 
about the second year that I was in the State of Washington. I should 
think it would have been in 1949. I am pretty sure, sir, it was in 1949, 
and I think I can pin it down further. It was probably about March 
or April 1949. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was the passport issued to you ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. To what country or countries did you travel under 
that passport ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, sir, I didn't use that passport for traveling, 
because the trip to Europe which I contemplated under it didn't work 
out. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the trip that you had contemplated ? 

Dr. Keller. I was working on an exchange teaching arrangement] 
with someone in London, having never been in London, and since i 
this particular program that the United States Government partici- 
pates in they have exchange teachers, the quota evidently for France 
was filled and my second choice was England, so that I tried to go to 
London — and it seemed as though that was all set. Something fell 
through at the last moment, but it seemed certain enough so tTiat I 
ought to have a passport and I accordingly got that I should think in 
about April of 1949. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you apply for the renewal of that passport 
which was issued you in 1949 ? 



I;'^ 

i 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6457 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir ; I did, 2 years later. I again guess that it was 
about April— 1951. . n j 

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy ot a letter addressed 
to the Passport Division of the State Department and will ask you if 
the signature appearing there is your signature ? 

(Witness and his counsel examine document. ) 

Mr. Tavenner. Or a copy of your signature ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir, that certainly looks like my signature. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you let me have the document, please? 

Now this letter is dated April 25, 1951, and reads as follows: 

On February 23 I sent you my passport and my wife's, with a request for exten- 
sion and a postal note to cover the fee for extension. Not having as yet received 
our passport back with the requested extension, may we ask that you give the 
matter your attention as soon as possible? 

I I desire to offer this letter in evidence and ask that it be marked 

"Keller Exhibit No. 1." 

I Now I hand you a letter under date of April 23, 1951, purportedly 
1 addressed to you from the Chief of the Passport Division of the State 

Department, and I will ask you to identify it, if you will, and state 
I whether or not you received the original. 
I (Witness and his counsel examine document.) 
' Dr. Keller. Yes, sir ; I have a distinct recollection of receiving this 

letter. 
Mr. Tavenner. The letter reads as follows : 

Dear Mr. Keller : The Department has received your request that your pass- 
port be renewed. After giving careful consideration to your case, the Department 
IS of the opinion that your proposed travel abroad would not be in the best inter- 
ests of the United States. Your request is therefore disapproved. 

I desire to offer this document in evidence and ask that it be marked 
'Keller exhibit No. 2." 

What action, if any, did you take upon receipt of that denial of that 
ipplication for passport? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I don't recollect doing anything about it, at the 
noment, and if I might explain to you in the event that you are not 
'amiliar with all the relevant facts 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Let me interrupt you just a moment. 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. TA^^5NNER. Let me hand you a photostatic copy of a letter of 

ay 14 addressed to the Passport Division and ask you to examine it 
nd state whether or not it doesn't refresh your recollection as to the 
ction you took? 

(Witness and his counsel examine document.) 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir; I see at a glance that this looks like the letter 
hat I wrote. I think you are entirely right there, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer it in evidence and ask that it be 
larked ^'Keller exhibit No. 3." 

Mr. Jackson. Keller exhibits Nos. 1, 2, and 3 will be admitted. 

Mr. Tavenner. Having refreshed your recollection, what action 
id you take? 

Dr. Keller. Thank you very much for doing so, sir. 

I did indeed write a letter to the State Department, disagreeing with 
Tie decision that my travel abroad would not be in the best interests of 

te United States and stating in substance that I could see no reason 

)r this particular decision. I did further things in this direction. 



I 

6458 COM]VIUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA ;i 



I 



Would you like to have me go into them, sir? 

Mr. Tax'enner. Before you do, did you receive a reply to that letter \ i 

Dr. Keller. Again, sir, I don't recall, but I think I did. | 

Mr. TA^^ENNEK. I hand you a letter purportedly addressed to yoi \ 

and ask you if you will identify it as having received the original o] i 

which this is a copy? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir ; I think this would be the one that I receivec  

in reply to mine. j 

Mr. Tavenner. The letter reads: I 

Deab Mr. Keller: In reply to your letter of May 14, 1951, you are informe< i 
that the Department's action declining to grant you and your wife passpor j 
facilities was taken after very careful consideration. The Department doe f, 
not know of any steps which you could take which would cause it to reverse it * 
decision in the matter. | i 

Sincerely yours, I 

. R. B. Shipley, I % 

Chief, Passport Division, i 

I desire to offer this letter in evidence and ask that it be marke« i 
"Keller exhibit No. 4." 

Mr. Jackson. It may be so received. 

Dr. Kjsller. Sir, after receiving this letter, and because this M^as ; 
very serious matter to me, as you must realize, for a person engaged ii 
the teaching of things relating to France — to be evidently condemne* 
through not being able to go to France, ever — is a very serious mattei 
What's more, at this particular moment I had a research grant, whic: 
would have permitted me — and a sabbatical leave from the university 
the two of which together would have financially permitted me an« 
my family to go to France. Therefore, I took a very serious view o 
this, sir, and I did take further action. 

Would you like to have me explain, sir? 

Mr. Ta\tenner. Yes. 

Dr. Keller. I went to Washington, D. C, after one or more tek 
phone calls to make an appointment, because it appeared to me the 
the chances of doing anything about this matter by corresponded 
were very dim. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me see if I can refresh your recollection aboi 
one matter. 

You spoke of the interfering with your sabbatical leave and plai 
for teaching abroad. Well, did not your letter of May 14, introduce 
as Keller Exhibit No. 3, state that it did not interfere with your i)lar 
as you had changed them and that you were not going abroad after all 

Dr. Keller. Well, sir, I can explain that to you very clearly. Tl 
grant that I held 

Mr. Tavenner. That isn't necessary, other than to state whetht 
or not you had actually changed your plans. I want to refresh yoi 
recollection. 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. My plans were changed partly because ( 
the research grant that I received requiring me to spend tlie who 
year in Ohio at Ohio State University. 

Let me point out, though, that it is possible under that grant 1 
spend a certain amount of time away from Ohio. Indeed I did spen 
one quarter of that time at Harvard University during that year ; an 
I thought that if I could get the passport I could prevail on the autho 
ities at Ohio State University to permit me to spend part of that ye; 
or perhaps all of it, ideally, in France. 



'COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6459 

(At this point Mr. Jackson left the hearing room. ) 

Mr. Tavenner. All right, sir. Now, if you will proceed. 
' ' Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. After making one or more telephone calls to 
' the State Department — I don't recall whether it was one or more, and 
I believe those were made when I was already in Ohio — I made an 
appointment with a gentleman in the State Department who evi- 
dently was in charge of my case, whose name I have forgotten. He 
agreed to let me come to Washington to change his mind, which I did. 
I didn't succeed in changing his mind, as I haven't been to France 
since then. 

Mr. Tavenner. During the course of the committee's investigation, 
it received information that at tlie time you went to Washington to 
confer on this matter, you advised the State Department that you had 
been a member of the Communist Party from 1939 to 1946, is that 
correct ? 

Dr. Keller. With the possible exception, sir, of one of the dates, 
which I hope you will excuse me for being vacrue on. 

Mr. Tavenner, I believe I may have misstated it. I meant to say 
from 1939 to 1946. 

Dr. Keller. Well, to the best of my recollection, those dates should 
have been 1938 to 1946, but I won't dispute the particular — I certainly 
told them that I had been a member of the Communist Party, sir ; I 
told this gentleman with whom I talked. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you advised to give such facts regarding the 
Communist Party that you possessed to agents of the Federal Bureau 
of Investigation ? 

Mr. I^LLER. May I ask you to repeat that, sir ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I say were you advised in Washington by repre- 
sentatives of the State Department — I will reframe that. Was it 
suggested to you by representatives of the State Department that you 
advise the Federal Bureau of Investigation of your knowledge of 
Communist Party activities ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, sir, to the best of my recollection, I wouldn't like 
to go as far as to say that it was suggested to me, and certainly I wasn't 
advised, but the gentleman left open to me the possibility that if I 
were to give all information about the Communist Party to — and here 
[ thought — the State Department security officer rather than the Fed- 
eral Bureau of Investigation, but I am not definite on that — in any 
:ase, if I would give all relevant information about the Communist 
Party to proper channels, let us say — he didn't say that I would get 
I passport, he didn't propose a deal ; he said the security officer would 
;hen be glad to reexamine my case. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you reject the idea of speaking to the Federal 
Bureau of Investigation or the security officer about your knowledge 
Df Communist Party activities ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir ; I did. And may I say a word as to why ? 
I Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Dr. Keller. Because the people that I knew in the Communist 
Party as of the time that I had been a member, and the particular 
branches with which I had been affiliated were made up of — those 
^ere people who, like me, were intellectuals, for the most part, in 
my case. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you think intellectuals are harmless ? 



I 



6460 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Dr. Keller. May I pass on that one, sir ? 

The point is that I knew nothing of a subversive nature, nothin^ 
relating to espionage or sabotage, which it seemed to me that I coulc 
give to the State Department. And since, sir, this was a perfectly vol- 
untary matter. The officer of the State Department, who was a gen- 
tleman, as I can recall didn't tell me to do this; no one told me to 
This was an entirely voluntary matter, and I didn't think, sir, thai 
my trip to France, important as it was to me, was quite that important 

Mr. Tavenner. "Were you visited at any time subsequent by a mem 
ber of the Federal Bureau of Investigation ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you give him information relating to youi 
knowledge of Communist Party activities ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, he didn't ask me for such, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. You mean the Federal Bureau of Investigation callec 
on you? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. And didn't ask you that question ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, the gentleman from the Federal Bureau of In 
vestigation called upon me to make an appointment with me about m^ 
own case and, to the best of my knowledge, since this again was a volun 
tary matter, you see, I decided that I would not give liim the informa 
tion that he, I supposed, was looking for. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you refuse to have a conference with him ? 

Dr. Keller. I did, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was that because you considered that your grouj 
of intellectuals were persons that could be guilty of no wrong ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, that is going a little too far. 

Mr. Tavenner. That is going a little too far ? 

Dr. Keller. Since one has to speak of what one knows and, espe 
cially in matters of this seriousness, since one has to live with one' 
conscience, it seemed to me that I was so far from knowing of an; 
wrong acts on the part of any people that I knew that it was not m^ 
duty to take it upon myself to say anything about them. 

Mr. Tavenner. But you did take it upon yourself the duty of jud§ 
ing the value of that information rather than to permit a duly consti 
tuted agency of the Federal Government to judge the value of it? 

Dr. Keller. I am not entirely clear, sir, whether — I thought tha 
a citizen does not have a legal responsibility to offer information to th 
FBI. Am I right, sir? 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you raising the question now as to whether yo\ 
were required to do it or 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. "\Yliether you decided not to do it ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, I decided, obviously, not to do it, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. Let me answer to that. 

Certainly a loyal American citizen has that obligation. It may no 



»i 



be a legal obligation. 



Dr. Keller. I would at that time, sir, and would now, without anj 
liesitation, offer to the FBI any information that I know about, acts oi 
persons, which could remotely be construed as subversive or in tb 
realm of espionage — anything detrimental to our country. 



h 



15' 



'n 



k 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6461 

Mr. Tavenner. But you wouldn't meet with the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation agent when he called upon you ? 

Dr. Keller. That is right, sir. 

(At this point Mr. Jackson returned to the hearing room.) 

Mr. Tavenner. And up until the time that you were subpenaed 
here, you had not offered to talk to a duly constituted representative of 
the Government on the subject of communism? 

Dr. Keller. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere did you become a member of the Communist 
Party, at Berkeley ? 

Dr. Keller. To the best of my recollection in Berkeley. It may 
have been in one of the nearby towns like San Francisco or Oakland, 
sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where were the meetings held while you were a 
member at Berkeley ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, that is a rather difficult thing to say, considering 
first of all how long ago it was and how many years were involved, and 
the numerous places at which meetings were held. They were at the 
houses of different members of the particular group, and the personnel 
of each group was constantly changing, sir, so that would be a very 
difficult thing to say. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I ask the suggestion of the commit- 
tee as to whether or not I should interrogate this witness with regard 
to names of individuals at this time, without having conferred with 
him or a member of the staff having conferred with him as to the 
names ? 

Mr. Jackson. We will suspend for just a moment. 

(At this point the committee members conferred.) 

(At this point Mr. Scherer conferred with Mr. Tavenner.) 

(At this point Dr. Keller conferred with Messrs. Harlow and Asia.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Keller, I propose to ask you at this time 
to give the committee the names of persons who were active in the 
Communist Party group with which you were connected at the Uni- 
versity of California, in the sense of persons who were leaders in your 
group. Now, just a moment — those who were officials in your group. 
I want to reserve for executive session the names of mere rank-and- 
file members until we have received the names from you and have 
followed the customary procedure in making some investigation before 
making public that type of information. Do you understand? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. Well, the matter of officials 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. Our distinguished counsel always knows more about 
how to put questions than I do — but I wonder, counsel, if you empha- 
sized there sufficiently — I didn't hear you do it; that these names he 
^ives of leaders must be known of his own knowledge as members of 
he Communist Party and not by hearsay nor by association or any- 
hing otlier than his own personal knowledge. 

Dr. Keller. I am very grateful to Mr. Doyle for emphasizing that, 
oecause in my own mind, as I have thought about this — for I expected 
his question, sir — I have set for myself a criterion which resembles 
what you have described ; that is to say that before I name someone I 



6462 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA j 

have to know, not that I knew him socially or in connection with my [ 
love of music or in connection with literary discussions, but that I \ 
have to have seen him, I have to have a mental picture of seeing him i 
sitting with me in a closed Communist Party branch meeting, because , 
that is the only thing which will keep me out of the realm of i 
speculation. j 

Mr. Doyle. I didn't mean that the gentleman has to have a painting 
in his memory of whom he sat with, but I do mean that you must be 
able to identify to your own personal knowledge — whether it is a pic- 
ture or whatever it is — I don't mean by my statement to weaken youi 
obligation, giving the name of any and every leader, as Mr. Tavennei 
has said, of the Communist group that you were with. 

Mr. Tavenner. I would like to ask a few other questions first. 

Did you hold any official position in this Communist Party grouj j 
at the University of California ? ' 

Dr. Keller. Well, I was in many groups and I held no official posi 
tion that I can recall, except that for a time of perhaps a half year ] 
went down, I think to the Communist Party headquarters in Oaklanc 
and got literature to make available to the members of the branch al i 
that meeting. This branch, obviously, and all the branches I wafj 
with did a lot of reading, and it was a bit of responsibility to pick oui 
the literature which ought to be made available in connection witl 
the discussion then going on. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were these branches that you were a member oil 
composed of students at the university or faculty members, or both'^ 

Dr. Keller. Well, sir, I don't remember, certainly, any facultj 
members. I was a student, myself, and I suspect they were almosi 
all graduate students, and probably some of them were teaching 
assistants like myself. 

Does that answer your question, sir ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I think it does. 

I will want you to give us first, before going into detailed informa- 
tion, the names of these clubs or branches of the Communist Party, H 
they had names, or any other descriptive information that you car 
give me regarding them, including the dates of your transfers to each 
of them. 

Mr. Jackson. Before we enter into this area of interrogation, would 
this, in your opinion, be a good place to recess ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I asked the question so that he could thinb 
it over during the noon hour. 

Dr. Keller. Thank you. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. The committee will stand in recess unti] 
1:30. 

(Whereupon, at 12 m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at 
1 : 30 p. m.) 

afternoon session 

(Whereupon, at 1:33 p. m., the hearing was reconvened.) 
(Mr. Scherer was not present in the hearing room.) 
Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order. 
Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Counsel? 
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 



I 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6463 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF DR. ABRAHAM CHARLES KELLER, 
. ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, JOHN S. HARLOW AND BENJAMIN 
S. ASIA 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Keller, do you recall the question that I asked 
you just at the conclusion of the morning session ? It was to give us 
the names or some other descriptive information regarding each of the 
groups or branches of the Communist Party which you were from time 
to time a member of. 

Mr. Jackson. Before answering that, Mr, Counsel, let the record 
state that a legal quorum of the subcommittee is present at this time. 

Dr. Keller. Sir, that is a difficult question, which I have done a 
little thinking about during the lunch hour, as well as before, and I 
can tell you that I was moved around from one branch to another with 
some rapidity. 

Mr. Tavenner. Describe as best you can your various transfers. 
 Dr. Keller. Well, some of the branches were rather small — let us 
say 10 or 12 members, and I think at the other extreme they might 
have ranged up to 25 or 30 ; but in the course of the 7 or 8 years that 
I was a member I must have been in — oh, 10 or 12 different branches, 
and they varied a good deal as to the number in them. 

Is that what you are principally interested in, the number of people 
per branch? I don't know. 

Mr. Tavenner. I want you to identify the group, if you can. 

Dr. Keller. Oh, well, maybe if I say something about the activity 
of the group, that would help you, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Very well. 

Dr. Keller. The principal activity that the groups indulged in or 
engaged in during the time I was in the party was discussion. These 
were people who loved to talk and discuss and there were all kinds of 
problems of the day — and theoretical — that were discussed. 

We would often write things. I remember dimly participating in 
the writing of a little leaflet for some — I don't remember now what 
union or organization — some organization needed a leaflet written, 
and I participated. It evidently had members in it who were not as 
good at writing as we who had more education. 

That is the general sort of thing that was done, principally. 

Does that help you, sir ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Let us go back a little further. 

Who recruited you into the Communist Party, or how were you 
recruited into the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, I don't think anyone recruited me. I recruited 
myself over a period of several years prior to joining. I should think 
the depression recruited me, sir, and by about some time in 1938, rather 
a short number of months, I should think, after I got to Berkeley, I 
passed by a store or what had been a store, with signs on it saying 
"Young Communist League." This was a Friday evening or I remem- 
ber that it was a weekend evening, anyway. There was a meeting 
going on in there and I walked in ; and I didn't know anyone there 
of course, and I asked what this was all about and what was going on. 
They told me and I sat through part of the meeting. I was told, to 
the best of my recollection, whom to contact or where to go. ISTow it 
probably was downtown Oakland, to the party headquarters, because 

48069— 54— pt. 7 4 



g464 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

obviously I was good material by that time for joining the party. ' 
And just who it was downtown in Oakland, if that was the place-- 
I suspect that would be it, that would be the usual pattern — who it 
was that gave me a card to sign and collected dues from me I haven't 
the slightest recollection. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you immediately assigned to a group or a 
unit of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, I don't know how immediate that was, sir, but 
not long after, I think. And that group was not — it was associated 
with the university, and it was made up of people, as far as I know, 
w^ho attended the univei-sity or who were, like me, half-time teachers. 
At least, that was my assumption. 
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the leader of this group ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, I don't recollect any leader, sir, and this might 
be of some interest to you. In groups like this, or at least in the ones 
that I was associated with, there wasn't any fixed leader, and I might 
be assigned to lead the discussion for the next meeting or for the next 
series of 2 or 3 meetings on the question of nationalism, or say, "What 
is a nation?" using Stalin's book as a basis. Another time someone 
else would be assigned — or not assigned, but the group would agree 
among itself that there was a rotation and different people would be 
in charge. Since there wasn't anything that I think you would call 
activity in the usual sense involved, there wasn't occasion for anybody 
to be a leader, that is, to organize. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now you said this group was made up of part-time 
instructors. 

Dr. Keller. Well, my assumption was that a good many of the 
people, if not all, were graduate students who didn't do teaching, or 
graduate students who did, which would be my case. 

Mr. Tavenner. Not undergraduates ? 

Dr. Keller. I don't think so, sir. This was my assumption that 
they were all graduates. 

Mr. Tavenner. ^Vhen I stated to you earlier that I did not want 
you to give us the names in public session of rank and file members of 
these students, I had in mind undergraduates. 

Now I am going to ask you to give us tlie names of any persons who 
were part-time instructors or who were graduate students and were 
taking part in C(mimunist Party activities. 

Dr. Keller. Now you want the names of people who were students 
or teachers, or the combination ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I want the names of any graduate students and the 
names of any part-time instructors who were members of the Cominu- 
nist Party with you at the University of California. 

Dr. Keller. Well, sir, I can tell you the name of Kenny May- 
Kenneth. 

Mr. Tavenner. He later became an open member of the Communist 
Party, did he not ? 

Dr. Keller. I don't know, except that he was an organizer of some 
kind in later years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, he has appeared before this committee and has 
testified fully. 

Dr. Keller. Well, I recall — by the standards that Mr. Doyle de- 
scribed before, I can identify him all right. And I can identify a 
philosophy instructor. 1 am not sure — I think he was a graduate 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6465 

student like me, teaching half-time, whose name was Dave Hawkins, 
whom I have lost track of by now. I don't have the slightest idea 
where he is. 

Mr. Tavenner. In what field was he ? 

Dr. Keller, May I say that I am not sure ? But from the way he 
talked in the meetings, as I recall — and I do have a distinct recollection 
of this gentleman — he was in philosophy, and that is more than a 
guess on my part that that was his field. 

Mr. Jackson. Your uncertainty goes to the field of his instruction 
and not his membership in the Communist Party, is that correct? 

Dr. Keller. That is an accurate statement, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Proceed, please. 

(At this point Mr. Scherer entered the hearing room.) 

Dr. Keller. Well, now, those are the only two that I can mention, 
sir, in the category that you describe. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain in that group of the 
Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. I don't have any recollection in that particular group, 
because there was so much shuffling about that it would be a sheer 
guess on my part. I could say — and this I want to make clear to 
you — the constitution of these branches didn't turn over immediately. 
What happened was that a number of people remained constant but 
people came and went, and I suppose I was one of those who came 
and went, so I would say that the principal constitution of a branch 
changed about a dozen times in the 7 years or so that I was in the 
party. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did the branch have a name ? 

Dr. Keller. If it did, nobody paid much attention to it. I dimly 
recall such a thing as university branch, campus branch, university 
of California branch — something of that kind. But if you want to 
mention some names and see if they ring a bell, I will be glad to tell 
you. 

Mr. Tavenner. Campus Branch No. 4 ? 

Dr. Keller. I certainly have no recollection of a number. That 
would imply there were more than one, and I wasn't aware 

Mr. Tavenner. Was there more than one campus branch? 

Dr. Keller. I certainly don't know. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was there a branch called the Bethune Branch ? 

Dr. Keller. I don't have any recollection of that name, sir. 

Could you refresh me by saying who it would have been named 
after ? I am not sure that would help me, but it might. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am not quite that expert. 

Dr. Keller. The name doesn't ring a bell. I won't say that I wasn't 
aware of such a branch or even had heard that name, but, you see, 
people didn't pay attention to those names ; that is what it boils down 
to. I certainly didn't. 

Mr. Tavenner. But you continued to attend these meetings of the 
various branches up to 1946 ? 

Dr. Keller. No, sir, that isn't quite accurate. I continued to attend 
imtil the period of, I should say, the summer, probably June of 1945— 




still in it, 



6466 COJVUNIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA | 

During the year 1945-46, 1 taught, as I told you, in Stockton, Calif., j 
and I wasn't in a position, physically, to go to meetings of the Com- j 
munist Party, unless I would go in Stockton, which I did not. I came 
home to see my wife on weekends, usually. 

Mr. Tavenner. But it was in the fall of 1945 that you went to 
Stockton ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir, that is right. And I recollect nothing during 
the summer preceding that — that is, in the last few months before I 
went to Stockton — that rings a bell, as far as attending party meetings. 
And the whole situation in the party that had arisen then, the dispute 
that you are acquainted with, I am sure, between Browder and Duclos, 
put me in an intellectual position which wasn't very favorable to gomg 
to more meetings. So, while I didn't withdraw, I doubt very much 
that I went to any meetings during that school year. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us at this time, please, the names of 
other members of the teaching staff, that is, part-time teachers or full- 
time teachers at the university and also graduate students who from 
tnne to time attended Communist Party meetings at which you were 
present ? By that I mean closed Comjnunist Party meetings. 

, Dr. Keller. That may be the reason that I don't recollect any 
such — that they may have come from time to time. And I, myself, 
came from time to time ; I wasn't a particularly good member. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien you were there from time to time, there were 
other people present, were there not ? 
,,.Dr. Keller. Indeed there were. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us their names ? 

Dr. Keller. I am not able to give you any such with any degree of 
certainty, so as to avoid the whole realm of speculation and my im- 
pressions. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you confer with a member of the staff of this 
committee with a view of giving a studied account of tliat matter ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, sir, if that seems advisable to the committee, I 
would be glad to do that. However, I should point out that prior to 
tJiis meeting I have gone over in my mind the names of the people that 
I knew in Berkeley during that time in any connection, and I doubt 
very much, offhand, that you would be able to present me with a name 
that I haven't thought of in some connection or other. And the people 
from the university that I mentioned are the ones that I can identify 
as members of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, will you so identify them ? 

Dr. Keller. Kenny May, Dave Hawkins. 

Mr. Tavenner. Only those two ? 

Dr. Keller. Those two, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall any scientists who were members of 
your group or groups of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. No, sir. I suppose there would have been some. If 
you were to ask me who they were, I couldn't tell you, sir ; I haven't 
any recollection of seeing a scientist, as such, present. 

Mr. Tavenner. I assume that the meetings were held in the homes 
of the various members ? 

Dr. Keller. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. AVere any of the meetings held in your home? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 



di 



Iti 



COAIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6467 

Mr. Tavenner. Did that occur regularly during the period of your 
membership ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, I am not aware of any particular regularity about 
the whole thing, and I don't know if there was any systematic way in 
which meetings were rotated or switched from one place to another. 
I feel sure they were at my home a goodly number of times, and they 
were at other homes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with a person by the 
name of Steve Nelson ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Tavenner. What position did he hold in the Communist Party 
at that time ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, the precise time is dim in my mind, but he at- 
tended meetings of my branch, the branch that I was in at that mo- 
ment, and at first I suppose I thought that he was a member of the 
branch — I wasn't aware that he was a leader. 

Mr. Tavenner. He was the organizer for Alameda County; was 
he not? 

Dr. Keller. He became that, anyway. I am trying to be very accu- 
rate, because the first time I saw him I doubt very much that I knew 
that. Later, of course, I became aware of that — that he was the or- 
ganizer or the principal official of that county. 

I didn't know him particularly well. I might say I knew who he 
was ; I have recognized him on the street. But I doubt very much if 
he would remember me by now because I wasn't one of the active mem- 
bers of the party that the leadership would pay much attention to, I 
am afraid. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with Bernadette Doyle ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what her position in the Communist 
Party was? 

Dr. Keller. Well, I think that she was a member of my branch. I 
think she was an actual member at one time of a branch that I was in, 
and subsequently — and just whether there was a lapse between or not, 
I am unable to recall. Subsequently she became some kind of official in 
the party — in the county or State organization. If you have that 
information, I will be glad to confirm it, if I know it. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was she the secretary to Steve Nelson, the organ- 
izer? 

Dr. Keller. That doesn't sound, offhand — that wouldn't be the thing 

1 would think of her as — as Steve Nelson's secretary. 

I might say this: that in the party organization in the county, I 
always liad the impression that tasks were not strictly divided ; that is, 
if the party could afford to have 2 officials in Alameda County, those 

2 officials did the work, and I doubt very much that one would be a 
secretary and another the organizer. 

Mr. Tavenner, Was she secretary of the Alameda County organi- 
zation of the Communist Party? 

Dr. Keller. I am afraid I would have to pass on that. I don't 
recall. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend meetings at her home? 

Dr. Keller. I don't have any recollection of that, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. She was a member of your group, you say, during 
that period of time that the group met at your home? 



6468 coMJvruNiST activities in the pacific northwest area 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did it also meet in her home? 

Dr. Keller. Well, I wouldn't especially have a way of knowing. 
You see, when a meeting was held at someone's home, it was almost 
impossible to know who the host was, and when the meeting was an- 
nounced it wasn't said that it would be at Abe Keller's house, at so- 
and-so address. Somebody might call me on the telephone and say, 
"The next meeting will be at this or that address," you see, and since 
we all knew what evening it was, that was sufficient. And since no 
refreshments were served and nothing happened which would point to 
a host or hostess, it is pretty impossible for me to say, especially at this 
late date, whose house it was. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did she attend, frequently, meetings at which you 
were present? 

Dr. Keller. How f reque^ntly, I don't know. I do remember her very 
clearly, and I think she attended a good number of meetings of the 
branch that I attended. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you have occasion to meet at one of those meet- 
ings a person by the name of Paul Crouch ? 

Dr. Keller. That name, sir, is very well known to me, but I haven't 
any recollection of meeting him, whatsoever. No, sir. 

i might say, by the way, that I hope you will go along with me in 
not wanting to say — to talk about people that I might have impressions 
about. This was a factual question and I am glad to say the answer 
to it. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. I don't want your guess about anything. 

Dr. Keller. Thank you. 

Mr, Jackson. Let the Chair clarify this matter of identifications. 

While the committee certainly does not want to work a hardship or 
to have anyone identified about whom you do not have certain knowl- 
edge, so far as the committee is concerned any individual with whom 
you met in a closed meeting of the Communist Party — that is one of 
the criteria established by the committee as being positive identifica- 
tion. So we don't want to unduly restrict the scope of your testimony. 
If you met in a closed meeting of the Communist Party with an indi- 
vidual, that will be considered, without objection from any other 
member of the committee, to be adequate evidence of his membership. 

Dr. Keller. Sir, that corresponds precisely to my own criterion 
and I am glad you stated that. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet at any of those meetings with a young 
scientist by the name of Dr. Joseph Weinberg ? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I am well acquainted, or was at that time, with 
Joseph Weinberg, but he is not one of the persons about whom I could 
speak with the kind of certainty Mr. Jackson just described; and 1 
suppose there is nothing I can say about him, since you are not inter 
ested in his musical tastes and things like that. 

Mr. Tavenner. No; my question was related to Communist Party 
meetings. 

Dr. Keller. I have no recall of meeting him in one of the closed] 
party branch meetings. 

Mr. ScjiERER. Did you meet him at any Communist Party meetings,] 
whether open or closed ? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I think you are asking me to cross the line, andl 
this I am not saying in relation to Mr. Weinberg but in relation with 



1 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6469 

any persons, because any possibility^ of my identifying people as mem- 
bers of the Communist Party is limited to the definitions that we have 

made. 

Mr. ScHERER. I didn't ask you anything about closed Communist 
Party meetings. You volunteered and said that you did not meet him 
at a closed party meeting. That was your answer. I merely asked 
whether you met him at a Communist Party meeting that was open. 

Dr. Keller. Sir, this is much too serious a matter for me to specu- 
late as to whether I have the impression that, with a hundred other 
people present, I met any particular person at a meeting which was 
attended by all kinds of individuals. 

Mr. Scherer. I don't want you to speculate. I am merely asking 
you this question because of your answer to Mr. Tavenner's question. 
You seem to qualify your answer. 

Dr. Keller. If I may be permitted to do so, I want to qualify my 
answers in regard to all people other than the ones that I can positively 
identify, because of the obvious seriousness to people's reputations of 
this kind of association. And I trust that the committee will support 
me in this type of caution. 

Mr. Scherer. Well, did you know Mr. Weinberg not to be a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, sir, l' doubt that I could say that about anybody. 
I doubt that I could say that about you, Mr. Scherer, though I have my 
impressions. But under oath, I doubt that I could say that you are 
not a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, has Mr. Weinberg been identified as a 
member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, he has. 

Dr. Keller. If Mr. Weinberg has been identified as a Communist 
Party member, that is all well and good. I am not able to identify him 
in that manner ; and you might give me the names of people well known 
to you and to the general public as Communists, but my conscience 
doesn't permit me to say that anyone was a Communist if I didn't 
see him in one of these closed party branch meetings. 

Mr. Jackson. The committee is not asking you to go outside your 
conscience in giving your answers. 

However, outside of the fact of whether or not you attended a closed 
party meeting with Mr. Weinberg, did he ever identify himself to you 
as a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. Did he identify himself to me as a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes, in private conversation, did he ever indicate to 
you that he was a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. I have no recollection of such identification, and if I 
had any impressions along that line I would sedulously avoid them. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you ever attend a meeting, whether open or 
closed, in which members of the Communist Party were present, which 
were held in his home or in his living quarters ? 

Dr. Keller. A meeting at his home, sir, in which members of the 
Communist Party ? Yes, sir ; I suppose so, since I went to his home 
tand I was a member of the Communist Party. Mr. Weinberg and I 
were friends — not bosom companions, but we were friends and we used 
(to listen to music a good deal together. I haven't got any recollection 



6470 COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

as to who else would have been there — to tell you that ; but I was there 
and that would make it qualify, I suppose. 

Mr. Jackson. Your answer then is that you have never attended i 
closed meetino: of the Communist Party in company with Mr. Wein- 
berg or a closed meetin<T of the Communist Party at which he was als( 
present ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, sir, if I can qualify that, I would say that I hav< 
already stated the two people connected with the university with whon 
I do know that I attended communistic closed party branch meetings 
all others would fall into the categories of those that I cannot recal 
obviously so attending, and this is a very large category indeed. 

Mr. Jackson. Then your answer to my question is no, you did no 
attend a closed party meeting of the Communist Party at which Mj 
Weinberg was present ? 

Dr. Keller. I believe I answered that satisfactorily. 

Mr. Jackson. Well, it is somewhat, in my opnion, a qualifiec 
answer. 

Dr. Keller. You see, what you are asking me is whether I evei 
did something or not, and all I can tell you is about my certain know! 
edge, and my certain knowledge indicates that I attended meeting! 
with the two people whom I have mentioned to you. 

Mr. Jackson, Yes, I understand that. 

Dr. Keller. And beyond that — beyond that, I can't identify anyone 
as certainly attending a Communist Party meeting with me: so, ob- 
viously, Mr. Weinberg would fall into this large category of people 
whom I can't identify in that manner. 

Mr. Jackson. Stripped of all the verbiage, let us go back to thie 
question. 

Did you ever attend a closed meeting of the Communist Party at 
which Mr. Weinberg was in attendance ? 

'■ Dr. Keller. Sir, I must repeat I am unable to answer this question, 
because I have already told you the people that I could identify, and 
everyone else falls in a category of people about whom I might have 
all kinds of impressions — whether I attended this or that or what their 
■politics were — but they are not people whom I can identify in the 
manner that you like. 

Mr. ScHERER. Now, witness 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. May I pause a moment, sir ? 

Mr. Jackson, Yes, of course. 

(Conference continues.) ^ 

Dr. Keller. Was there a question pending ? 

Mr. Jackson. The only question is the one which has still not been 
answered, to my satisfaction. 

You testified, as I understand your testimony, that you and Mr. 
Weinberg were friends. It seems to me that one would be able to 
recall the nature, first of all. of a closed meeting of the Communist 
Party. The question which I have directed several times to you was 
whether or not you have ever attended such a closed meeting of the 
Communist Party, at which meeting there was also in attendance Mr. 
Joseph Weinberg? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I repeat I believe I have answered that and to the 
best of my ability, and as far as I can in good conscience, considering 
the standards of truth that this committee would like to have. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6471 

Mr. Jackson. I don't think we have violated any standards of truth, 
with the criterion set up, by asking you a very straightforward ques- 
tion as to whether or not in any closed meeting at any time of the Com- 
munist Party, now, I am not talking about open meetings, I am not 
talking about social meetings; I am talking about closed meetings of 
the Communist Party, which excluded all of the other people, whether 
or not in such a meeting at any time and at any place you have been 
iu attendance with Dr. Weinberg. 

Dr. Keller. I would like to know — you don't want me to indulge 
in impressions, do you ? 

Mr. Jackson. jSjo, I simply want you to say "Yes" or "No" ; that you 
were not at such a meeting or, conversely, that you were at such a 
meeting. 

Dr. Keller. If I have stated the people that I can identify as hav- 
ing attended such meetings with me, isn't it sufficient — or am I too 
academic ? 

Mr. Ta\tsnner. You are staying one step away from answering the 
question directly. 

Dr. Keller. The reason for my staying away, sir, if you don't mind 
my saying so, is that my moral principles forbid me to say anything 
about anybody that I don't know; and all the people other than the 
two that I have mentioned, and I believe you have mentioned, too, I 
don't know about these people's politics with any certainty, and I am 
unable to answer questions about them. 

Mr. Jackson. I am not inquiring into his politics. I am inquiring 
into his physical presence at a meeting of the Communist Party, a 
closed meeting of the Communist Party, at which you were also in 
attendance. It has nothing to do with his politics; he might, for the 
purposes of this question, be a Kepublican or a Democrat. I want to 
know, however, if at any closed meeting he was present. 

Dr. Keller. He might have been, sir. You are asking me if he was 
present. How can I say yes or no ? If I sslj that he was present, and 
it turns out that he was not, it seems to me I am liable for perjury; 
and if I say he was not and you have reason to think that he was or 
evidence that he was, then I am equally gTiilty of perjury or some tiling 
of the kind. 

Mr. Jackson. Certainly this seems to me to be a very fundamental 
and a very simple question to answer. 

Your testimony has been to the point that Dr. Weinberg was a 
friend of yours. Your testimony has also indicated that you were a 
member of the Communist Party and that you attended a number of 
branch meetings of the Communist Party. My question is purely and 
simply to the point that I would like to know whether Dr. Weinberg 
attended any closed meeting of the Communist Party — I am not going 
into the point of his politics — I want to know if he was phvsicall}' 
present in a closed meeting of the Communist Party at a time when 
you were also present ? 

Dr. Keller. To the best of my recollection, sir, the two people 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia advised Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. Wlio I can so identify I have identified, and Mr. Wein- 
berg, along with everyone else that you could mention, are people 
j that I don't recollect having seen at closed party meetings. 

Is that the type of answer you would like ? 

48069—54 — pt. 7 — —5 



6472 COMJMUXIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Jackson. Tliat is getting close to it. 

Do you know what a closed meeting of tlie Communist Party is'^ 

Dr. Keller. Well, I should think I ought to, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Well, do you ? 

Dr. Keller. It is very difficult to say what I know. I have my 
own conception of it, sir. Do you want me to define it ? 

Mr. Jackson. I think perhaps we could define it. 

A closed meeting is a meeting at which no one except Communists 
is present. Does that agree with your definition ? 

Dr. Keller. That is right. 

Mr. Jackson. Proceeding on the premise that a closed meeting is 
such a meeting as we have described, Do you know Dr. Weinberg? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Have vou ever seen the two of them together? Have 
you ever seen him in a closed meeting ? 

Dr. Keller. With whom ? 

Mr. Jackson. With anyone — with anyone, I don't care. All I want 
to know is, Did you ever see Dr. Weinberg in a closed meeting? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I can't answer that question, because I don't — I 
don't know — I don't know if I am able to make myself clear. I recol- 
lect seeing certain people for certain in closed Communist Party meet- 
ings. Those people I have mentioned to you, and two others that you 
have asked me about I have identified. Beyond that, I don't recollect 
seeing any people in closed Communist Party meetings, and for me to 
indulge in any kind of talk about them is contrary to my moral princi- 
ples and I don't believe that this committee will request that. 

Mr. Jackson. Am I to understand, sir, that the closed party meet- 
ings of which you have knowledge were those which were limited to 
three people? 

Dr. Keller. Three people, sir? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes, the two you have mentioned and yourself. 

Dr. Keller. I would doubt that very much. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, then, I must assume that they were larger 
meetings, that there were more people in attendance. 

Was Dr. Weinberg one of the individuals who was present at any 
meeting of which 3^ou have knowledge? 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. Sir, if you don't mind, with the conviction that I have 
answered that question satisfactorily in my mind, I hope you will 
agree with me, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. I am not taking issue with your convictions, but I do 
beg to differ with you on the point that you have answered the ques- 
tion. I do not consider what you have said an answer to the question 
in any way, taking into consideration your knowledge of the Com- 
munist Party and your personal friendship with Dr. Weinberg. I 
cannot agi'ee that your statement constitutes an answer. 

Pi'oceed, JNIr. Counsel. 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Mr. Doyle. May I ask the witness a question at this time? 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. An exploratory question, to see if the witness can come 
another step and be more explicit in his answer. 

You have testified that you were a Communist and also that you 
attended closed Communist Party meetings. That is true, isn't it? 



COM]\roNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6473 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. You testified that you and Mr. Weinberg enjoyed musi- 
cal occasions together in a private home ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. DoYLE. And I presume that it was on frequent occasions tliat 
you and he enjoyed musical evenings together? 

Dr. Keller. It seems to me — I just don't know. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, a half dozen times or a dozen? 

Dr. Keller. Oh, yes. Yes. Certainly. 

Mr. Doyle. So that you knew him very well, socially at least? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Now you know what a closed Communist Party meet- 
ing was at the time. You attended them. I will ask you very defi- 
nitely, did Weinberg ever, to your knowledge, as you now have it, ever 
sit with you in one of those closed Communist Party meetings? 

I am not asking you to speculate, sir. I am not asking you for your 
impression. I am not asking you to answer me as you did the others, 
by a process of elimination. 

Dr. Keller. Sir, may I talk to my attorneys here for a moment? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes. At all times j^ou may talk to your counsel. 

(At this point Dr. Keller conferred with Messrs. Harlow and Asia.) 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I wonder if I may have about a minute or tv. o to 
explain what looks like a very peculiar situation ? May I ? Because 
Mr. Jackson told me that I came close. I, in effect — obviously, in 
effect — ^answered this question to your satisfaction, and not quite. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that he be required 
to answer the question and then make any explanation he desires to 
make? 

Mr. Jackson". Yes ; I think that is a more logical procedure. 

If the witness will answer the question, then he will be permitted to 
make any explanation which he may consider necessary or desirable. 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. Sir, I do not recall ever seeing this Joseph 
Weinberg at a closed Communist Party meeting. 

Now if I may have a moment or two. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. 

Dr. Keller. I would like to — and I answered that question, 
obviously, on your urging and on advice of counsel. I, myself 

Mr. Doyle. Now, just a minute. I hope you answered it because 
you are under oath and want to be frank with us. 

Dr. Keller. Everything that I tell you, sir, is the truth, and noth- 
ing else. I am aware of the oath that I took. 

"\^^iat I would like to explain, sir, is that people's political affiliations 
and views in this particular time are a very serious matter, and for me 
under oath to say anything about people's politics, whether negative 
or affirmative, puts me in the realm of speculation and of impressions 
and of guessing, and my moral principles will simply not permit me 
to talk about people's politics. 

I Mr. Tavenner. You weren't asked any question regarding Dr. 
' Weinberg's beliefs or opinions or his politics ; it was a matter of fact 
only. 

Dr. Keller. You do appreciate or understand my position in this 
matter, though, I hope ? 



6474 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. DoTLE. No, I don't, very frankly, because it is only a matter 
of whether or not he was physically present the same place as you 
were. That is the question : Whether or not you know whether or not 
he was. We didn't ask you what party he was a member of or what 
his philosophy was or what music he enjoyed; we asked you whether 
or not he was physically present, as you now recall it, under oath — and 
that is the whole question, as I see it. 

Mr. Jackson. The purpose of the question was to determine whether 
or not the two of you had ever met together in a closed meeting of the 
Communist Party. 

Now, as I understand your answer, to the best of your recollection 
you cannot so place him in a closed meeting of the Communist Party. 

Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. Irrespective of attendance at open or closed party 
meetings, isn't it a fact, witness, that you were so well acquainted that 
you knew Dr. Weinberg to be a Communist ? 

Dr. Keller. Sir. this is the kind of question that I am unable to 
answer ; I am unable to say who is a Communist and who is not. 

Mr. Scherer. Wait a minute. I am merely asking — you don't have 
to say— I am merely asking if it isn't a matter of fact that you knew 
him to be a Communist? You can say "Yes" or you can say "No.* 
That is not one that you shouldn't be able to answer— whether you, m 
your own knowledge, knew him to be or not to be a Communist. There- 
is no way of hedging on that question. 

Dr. Keller. I am not hedging, sir, but there are many people whom 
you might take to be Communists and some people who will take me- 
to be a Communist, and I am very far from that. 

Mr. Scherer. Well, did you take Dr. Weinberg to be a Communist 
or not to be a Communist ? 

Dr. Keller. This, sir, is precisely the kind of speculation I am un- 
willing to engage in. 

Mr. Scherer. It is certainly not speculation. 

Mr. Jackson. The question as I understand it is : Did you know, in 
your own personal knowledge, whether Dr. Weinberg was or was not 
a Communist? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I took Dr. Weinberg to be a great lover of music 
and a fine speaker on Beethoven and an expert expounder 

( At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia advised Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. Of quantum physics and a very intelligent person all 
around. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you know him to be a member of the Communist 

Party? 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 
Dr. Keller. Sir, this question, being in the realm of what I consider 
speculation, because I have told you the extent of my true knowledge 
about people — and I am glad to tell you any more things if you ask 
me about whatever you like, provided I can answer truthfully and 
within the framework of my conscience. And for me to speculate as 
to whether anyone was a member of the Communist Party — I know — 
I realize you are asking me did I know that he was a member since I 
have already told you what I know. And that is it; there is no more 
room for speculation. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6475 

Mr. Jackson. Well, this certainly is not a speculative question. You 
have volunteered the information that you paid very little, if any, 
attention to the politics of individuals. This question lends itself very 
simply to a yes or no answer; it is not a matter of speculation. It is 
exactly the same question, the same situation as if you were asked if 
you knew a certain individual. You could say yes or no to that ques- 
tion, and the question that is being presently directed to you is as 
simple as that. 

Did you know Dr. Weinberg to be a member of the Communist 
Party ? If you did not know him to be a member of the Communist 
Party, all that it is necessary for you to say is "No." 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. Sir, for the reasons which I stated before, and not in- 
voking any constitutional privileges, but only the dictates of my con- 
science, I am unable to speak about the politics of these individuals 
about whom I have no certain knowledge. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Witness, we are not asking you to speculate about 
anything; we are simply asking you the direct question as to whether 
or not you, as an individual, knew Dr. Weinberg to be a member of 
the Communist Party. If you did not, it is very simple to say no. 

And to further lend emphasis to this, you are directed to answer the 
question. 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. Sir, would you please list for me perhaps the criteria 
tliat you have in mind ? If I didn't recall seeing him at a Communist 
Party meeting ? 

Mr. Jackson. Not at all. There are no criteria involved in this ques- 
tion whatever. This is a question which can be answered and must, in 
the end, be answered in one of two ways : either by your answer "Yes'' 
or your answer "No." There is nothing incriminating in it; there is 
no conjecture in it. It is simply a question which, as I say, can be 
answered with one word, without throwing any onus upon Dr. Wein- 
berg. If you did not know him to be a member of the Communist 
Party, simply say "No." 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. Sir, may I have the last question ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. Did you know Dr. Weinberg to be a member of 
the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, this is one of the questions outside of the realm 
of certainty, which I told you about before, which I am not morally 
able to answer. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer the question ? 

Dr. Keller. I don't decline to answer it, sir, but this is something — 
you want certain knowledge of mine. 

Mr. Jackson. I want no uncertain knowledge from you. 

Dr. Keller. Do I know Joe Weinberg to have been a Communist ? 

Mr. Jackson. Exactly. 

Dr. Keller. Have I told you that I don't recall having seen him in 
one of these closed party branch meetings ? 

Mr. Jackson. Let us not deviate from the point. The question 
is did you know Dr. Weinberg to be a member of the Communist 
Party? 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 



€476 COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Doyle. While we are waiting for the witness to complete con- , 
ferring with the 2 counsel, I think the record should show that we| 
are glad to wait until he has had all the time he wants to confer with 
the 2 lawyers before he answers. 

Mr. Chairman, may I suggest this as a possible aid to the witness' 
position ? 

Under Public Law 601, we are charged by Congress to investigate 
the extent to which the Communist Party, as a group of subversives, 
infiltrated education — any realm of activity. Therefore, I suggest — 
because I used to practice law a little — I would suggest that if Dr. 
Weinberg ever told you that he was a member of the Communist 
Party that would be one criteria by which you might refresh youi 
memory, or if you ever saw his Communist Party card, or if you 
and he were discussing Communist Party matters and you in your 
language to him just assumed that he was a Communist and he never 
denied it where he was in a position to deny it, or where you saw any 
documents showing that he was a member of the Communist Party, 
or of course if you attended closed Communist Party meetings with 
him. 

Now those are some of the points that might refresh your memory. 

Mr. Jackson. Yes, Mr. Doyle. I want to insist, however, that on 
this question there are no criteria. 

Mr. DoYL,E. That is right. 

Mr. Jackson. There is nothing to be considered in response to 
my question except whether or not you knew Dr. Weinberg to be a 
member of the Communist Party. 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. Sir, it seems to me that I have answered that in terms 
of the criteria that two people I saw and recall definitely seemg at 
party meetings ; all others, including Mr. Weinberg, I do not. 

May I say the reason why I am giving you so much difficulty on 
this point? 

Mr. Jackson. I should like to know. 

Dr. Keller. Because I am sure you consider it an academic ques- 
tion, but it isn't with me, because if I state that I didn't know Mr. A. 
to be a Communist and then I am asked about Mr. B. — did I know 
him to be a Communist, and then Mr. C — I am unwilling and unable 
in my heart to talk about these people's politics when they are not 
in the very small category of the people about whom I can speak 
certainly, and I trust — I am sure, to use Mr. Welch's phrase, that 
there is a great deal of decency left in the hearts of the gentlemen of 
this committee and in the American public to support what I consider 
this conscientious attitude on my part. 

Mr. Jackson. That is fine. I respect the observation. 

Now let us go back to the question : Did you know Dr. Weinberg 
to be a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I have answered that as fully as I can. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to give any further answer to that 
which you have already given ? 

I )r. Kkller. I can't answer no further. 

(At tliis point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

]Vrr. Jackson. The Chair directs that you answer the question as it , 
has been put. 



t 



I 

! 

i 



COMMUNIST ACTWITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6477 

Dr. Keller. I have answered the question, sir, as fully as I am able. 

Mr, Jackson. And you are then basing your refusal to answer that 
question upon the grounds of moral scruples ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir, that is right. 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred Avith Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. I am basing my inability to answer questions about the 
politics of people whom I don't know — whose politics I don't know 
for certain, whom I can't identify for certain as members of the Com- 
munist Party. I am basing my hesitancy in answering questions about 
all those people — conservative, liberal, left, whatever you like, on 
moral scruples ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson". Very well. Of course your counsel will advise you 
that moral scruples are no grounds for refusing to answer a question. 
They may be laudable but they have no standing. And for my part — 
and I speak only as an individual member of the committee — your 
refusal to answer that question is a clear and direct evasion of a ques- 
tion which could be answered very simply out of your own personal 
knowledge. 

Dr. Keller. Sir, may I state very briefly that if this question had 
come up in connection with one of my most conservative friends, I 
would take the same stand, because this is a position that I hold 
deeply — that it is not my privilege to talk in matters of this serious- 
ness, where the reputations and the livelihoods of individuals and 
their families are involved. 

Mr. Jackson, Then, I take it from that, sir, that you are going to 
decline to answer any questions as to the Communist Party affiliations 
of any individual that you may know ? 

Dr. Keller. No, sir. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. The same principle is involved. 

Dr. Keller, No, sir, I am perfectly willing, and I have already — 
I have already indicated my willingness, 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr, Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. Stripped of your "conscientious" verbiage and explana- 
tion and moral scruples, do I understand that your answer is that you 
don't know whether or not he was a Communist? Is that what you 
are trying to tell us ? 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. INIr. Doyle, I suppose I am too academic for this matter. 

Mr. Doyle. That certainly. Professor, is a simple question. Are 
you trying to tell us that you didn't know whether he, Weinberg, was 
a Communist? Is that what you are trying to tell us? 

Dr. Keller. I am telling you about the people I know to be Com- 
munists. 

Mr. Doyle. Let us refer to this man now. I am referring to this 
one man — and we assure you, we are worried about your answer 
because we don't understand it. 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred witli Dr. Keller.) 

Dr, Keller. Gentlemen, Mr. Weinberg falls into the category of 
people whom I don't know, by the criteria that we have established, to 
have been in attendance with me, to my recollection, in closed party 
meetings — that category of people whom I do not know to be Com- 
munists. 

Does that satisfy you, gentlemen ? 



6478 COIVDMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Jackson. I don't know about Mr. Doyle. It doesn't satisfy me. 

(At this point Messers. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Mr. Jackson. What you are saying is that you don't know whether 
Dr. Weinberg was a member of the Communist Party. Either you 
know or you don't know. Now which is it ? 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. Gentlemen, if, to the best of my recollection, I never 
saw Dr. Weinberg at a closed party branch meeting — if, to the best of 
my recollection, I never saw a party book of his — if, to the best of my 
recollection, I never saw him pay dues. Communist Party dues — is 
that sufficient for you ? 

Mr. Doyle. But you haven't included in that if, to the best of your 
recollection, you have never conversed about the subject of the Com- 
munist Party with him or that he admitted that he was a member. 
You have omitted that in your preliminary statement there. 

Dr. Keller. I didn't get the last point, Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. I said you didn't enumerate whether you had ever had 
a conversation with him in which he said that he was a Communist. 

Dr. Keller. This matter of conversation, sir, I am sorry to say, does 
not fall into the framework of the certainty which I believe I can talk 
about. 

Mr. Jackson. Let us forget the framework. 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. And let us forget all of the criteria. 

What I should like to have from you, sir, is a statement that you 
did not know Dr. Weinberg to be a member of the Communist Party. 
You certainly cannot lay an onus upon his character in that regard, 
by so answering. 

Mr. Doyle. If that is a fact. 

Mr. Jackson. If that is a fact. Of course we want the truth. 

(At this point Dr. Keller conferred with Messrs. Harlow and Asia.) 

Mr. Doyle. Again let the record show that the witness is having the 
benefit of all the time that he wants to confer with his counsel. 

Mr. Jackson. Are you prepared to answer, sir ? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I must answer that question in the way that I have 
previously : that in the realm of what I know to be certain as to any- 
one's being a member of the Communist Party, I have so testified; 
and, with regard to anyone else, they fall into a large category about 
whom I cannot say. 

Mr. Jackson. Then you did not know Dr. Weinberg to be a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. That, sir, would certainly follow. However, on moral 
grounds, I refuse, or I hesitate — I beg you not to force me to say things 
about people other than the ones that I am sure about. 

Mr. Jackson. We are not attempting to force you to do anything, 
sir. We are attempting to find out simply whether or not you knew 
a giveii individual to be a member of the Communist Party. Now if 
you did not know him to be a member of the Communist Party, the j 
greatest service you could pay him would be to say so. 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. Well, gentlemen, I realize the service that I could 
pay people or the disservice. That is not my intention ; my intention 
is to be true both to the facts and to myself, and I am attempting to do 
that. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6479 

Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. The more significant question was the one that I 
think I asked when we originally got on the subject of Dr. Weinberg. 
We have spent a lot of time on questions with reference to meetings 
that he may or may not have attended ; we have spent a lot of time 
on questions of whether Dr. Weinberg was an actual member of the 
party or not. My question was — and we got away from it when I was 
interrupted— as a matter of fact, didn't you know Dr. Weinberg to be a 
Communist ? That is the question that has never been answered. We 
got into the question of party membership, and I am not interested 
in party membership. I am asking if, as a matter of fact, you didn't 
know Dr. Weinberg to be a Communist, because of your close asso- 
ciation with him ? I will leave out "party." 

Dr. Keller. Leave out these closed branch meetings, sir ? 

Mr. Scherer. Leave out anything. That was my original question. 

Dr. Keller. I believe you are suggesting that I leave out the closed 
branch meetings. 

]Mr. Scherer. I think you understand me, Witness, and I think 
I know what you are doing. This isn't fooling me one bit. You are 
skirting the edges so we can't get you for perjury, that's all. 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I believe I have answered that question to the best 
of my ability. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct him to answer 
the question whether or not he doesn't know, as a matter of fact, that 
Dr. Weinberg was a Communist. 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. Sir, may I ask you to define "as a matter of fact"? 

Mr. Scpierer. Witness, you have certainly had a much better edu- 
cation than I have had. 

Dr. Keller. But you evidently don't accept my interpretation. 

Mr. Scherer. Maybe I have to get a few more degrees. 

Dr. Keller. My interpretation, which I stated, and which Mr. 
Jackson 

Mr. Scherer. Let us leave out the words "as a matter of fact." 

Did you not know Dr. Weinberg to be a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Dr. Keller. But it is precisely on this basis of fact that I want to 
testify, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. Well, I asked you, and you told me to leave out the 
reference "as a matter of fact." I used those words and now you want 
me to put those words back in. 

Dr. Keller. No. I asked if you might define it, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. They are simple English words and a man with your 
background and education certainly understands whether or not you 
knew Dr. Weinberg to be a Communist. 

Did you direct him to answer ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes, a direction has been issued. 

Dr. Keller. Mr. Chairman, answering this question would force 
me mto the realm of speculation outside the area of certainty which 
I can testify about under oath. 

Mr. Scherer. And you are refusing to answer for the reasons that 
you have just stated — that it would involve speculation ? 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 



6480 COIVIAIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Dr. Keller. To speak about people as members of the Commmiist 
Party or not members of the Communist Party upon a basis of other 
than having seen them in closed Communist Party branch meetmgs, 
to me, gentlemen — not necessarily to you — but to me, in my heart, is 
not a moral procedure. 

Mr. ScHERER. You put the word "party" into your statement. I 
specifically left out "membership in the Communist Party," because 
I can see how you could evade answering that question. But you can- 
not evade, if you answer truthfully, whether or not you knew Dr. 
Weinberg to be a Communist. 

Dr. Keller. Sir, it isn't my intention to evade but to answer to the 
best of my ability, and I hope — I believe that I have done that. 

Mr. Scherer. I know Mr. Doyle here very well to be a Democrat 
and I have never sat with him in a Democratic meeting. I have never 
even asked him whether he was a Democrat, but I know he is a Demo- 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I have the same impression. However, if I were 
under oath and harm might come to Mr. Doyle or harm might come 
to me as a result of so testifying, I would be very reluctant indeed, 
and that is the point I am trying to establish, and I do hope you will 

accept it. -it 

Mr. Scherer. I know what you are attempting to do — just what I 
said a few minutes ago. 

Mr. Jacksox. Of course Mr. Doyle has been brought into what I 
think is one of the most fallacious arguments that has ever been ad- 
vanced, in saying that it would do Mr. Doyle harm if I said I know 
whether he is a Democrat or not ; and that is precisely what you are 
asked to testify to— whether or not you knew Dr. Weinberg to be a 
member of the Communist Party. 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 
Mr. Jackson. Do you know or do you not know whether he was a 
member ? 

(Conference continues.) 

Mr. Doyle. I would like the record to show again, Mr. Chairman, 
that the witness has been conferring with his counsel for several 

minutes. r  ■, j. 

Dr. Keller. Mr. Scherer, I do not recall seeing Dr. Weinberg at 

closed Communist Party meetings. 

Mr. Scherer. We have passed that a long time ago. 

INIr. Jackson. That is not an issue. 

Dr. Keller. I do not recall. 

Mr. Scherer. I never saw Mr. Doyle's party membership card, nor 
have I ever seen him at a Democratic meeting — because I wouldn't be 
caught there ; but I would be willing to testify under oath that he is 
a Democrat and a good one. 

Dr. Keller. You know him better than I do. 

Mr. Jackson. If this answer is simply going to the point of the 
criteria that has been established, there is no use in pursuing it any 

further. 

Mr. Scherer. I don't know Mr. Doyle as well as I know you knew 

Dr. Weinberg. 

Mr. Jackson. Are you finished ? 

Mr. Scherer. Yes. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 



I 



COMJMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6481 

Mr. Doyle. I have one more question, and I am deliberately asking 
it this way, trying to see if we can get an answer that appears more 
satisfactory as a matter of record from you under oath, particularly 
as these Congressmen feel that your present answer is very unsatis- 
factory to us in our official capacity. 

Do I understand that the reason you project moral scruples at this 
time when you answer these questions of whether or not you knew 
Dr. Weinberg as a member of the Communist Party or as a Commu- 
nist is because you are uncertain at this time as to whether or not 
you knew him as having been a member of the Communist Party back 
there 10 years before? Is it uncertainty that is making you answer 
this way or what ? 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. I^LLER. Of course, sir. 

It is indeed this uncertainty which motivates me; but it motivates 
me further, because as soon as I am uncertain I am unable to answer. 

Mv. Doyle. We aren't asking you to state positively if you are un- 
certain. You ought to know that as a doctor, as a highly educated 
man, a university graduate with several degrees. I think you ought 
to know it. Pardon me if I have assumed something that is not in 
evidence, but you ought to know that. 

I have no more questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you know Dr. Frank Oppenheimer at the Uni- 
versity of California ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you know him to be a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, Dr. Oppenheimer I knew very little, and I 
wouldn't know anything at all about his politics. If you want me 
to say that I didn't know him to be a member of the Communist 
Party — I didn't know him to be a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Jackson. That is exactly what I want to know. Now did you 
know Dr. Weinberg to be a member of the Communist Party ? 

Now there are two individuals. On one, in answer to the question 
regarding Dr. Oppenheimer, you had no hesitation in saying you 
did not know him to be a member of the Communist Party. I will 
now put to you the question as to whether you knew Dr. Weinberg 
to be a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. The difference, sir, is that I don't know enough about 
Dr. Oppenheimer's politics; he being a full professor and already a 
distinguished scientist and I being a student, I didn't know enough 
about his politics to be able to speculate in any manner. 

Mr. Jackson. But you didn't know him to be a member of the 
Communist Party? 

Dr. Keller. If I knew him very casually, obviously I didn't. 

Mr. Jackson. You knew Dr. Weinberg well, though? _ 

Dr. Keller. If I were to answer about Dr. Oppenheimer, I could 
speculate about him. 

Mr. Jackson. We don't want any speculation. 

Dr. Keller. I have already answered Mr. Doyle about the matter 
of certainty in speaking about Dr. Weinberg's Communist Party 
membership or political affiliations. 

Mr. Jackson. Because you knew Dr. Weinberg, you knew less about 
his political philosophies, is that it ? 



6482 COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Dr. Keller. Does that follow, sir ? 

Mr. Jackso^t. Very well. 

JNIr. ScHERER. You know now that Dr. Oppenheimer was a member 
of the Communist Party at one time, don't you ? 

Dr. Keller. No, sir, I do not. 

Mr. Scherer. Do you read the papers ? 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. Haven't you read that he has admitted membership 
at one time ? 

Dr. Kj:ller. I don't recall reading that, and if I read it it would be 
merely to repeat what I read in the paper. I don't know, myself, from 
personal experience, about anybod}^ bein^^ a member of the Commu- 
nist Party outside of the people that I mentioned in that light. 

Mr. Jackson. Yet j'ou very promptly stated, with relation to Dr. 
Oppenheimer, that you did not know that he was a member of the 
Communist Party. 

The strange and fantastic paradox is that you quite frankly admit 
that you have not the slightest idea as to whether or not Dr. Oppen- 
heimer was a member of the Communist Party, but with reference 
to a personal friend, whom you knew much better, you are not pre- 
pared to make the same statement. 

Mr. Doyle. In connection with that, Mr. Chairman, I have been 
watching the clock, and we have taken 34 minutes on this question as 
to whether or not the witness knew Dr. Weinberg as a member of the 
Communist Party. I think the record should show that so that you 
will all realize that the witness has not been hurried in any sense. 

Mr. Jackson. Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Where did Dr. Joseph Weinberg live ? 

Dr. Keller. I don't recollect the address, sir. It was near the 
campus, one of the streets — let me get my directions straight — north 
of the campus. No — no — in the direction — when you go out of the 
University of California campus, through Cedargate Walk — along 
in there somewhere. I haven't lived in Berkeley for many years now. 
But it is in that general area, I presume. 

Mr. Ta\tenner. Did you ever live in the same apartment house in 
which he lived ? 

Dr. Keller. Not to my recollection, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know the names of other persons who did 
live in the same apartment house ? 

Dr. Keller. Not as far as I can recall, sir, 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where Steve Nelson lived ? 

Dr. Keller. If I did at one time, I don't recall it now, sir, 

Mr, Tavenner, Did you visit his home at any time ? 

Dr. Keller. I have no recollection of that at all. 

Mr, Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Louise Bransten? 

Dr, Keller, The name doesn't ring a bell, sir, 

Mr. Tavenner, Were you acquainted with Dr. Giovanni Rossi 
Lomanitz ? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I believe that he was a graduate student or a 
student at the University of California whom I met, yes, sir. If this 
is the person that I am thinking of, he was called Rossi, That evi- 
dently is his middle name, but I recall dimly such a person. 

Mr, Tavenner. Was he a member of a group of the Communist 
Party of which you were a member ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6483 

Dr. KJELLER. Sir, I come back to the stand I took before on all people 
that I knew very little and would have to speculate about their politics. 
'- If I tell you how I knew him 

Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of your group of the Communist 
r Party? 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 
J: Dr. Keller. Sir, this gentleman that you mention is someone that 
1 knew very slightly, and I would be on what I consider poor moral 
ground in speculating at all about his politics. 

Mr. Jackson. You wouldn't need to unless you knew him to be a 
member of the Communist Party. Did you so know him ? 

Mr. Keller. I am unable to speculate about him or any of the other 
- people. 

' Mr. Jackson. I am not asking you to speculate ; I am asking if you 
knew him to be a member of the Communist Party ? 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller. ) 

Mr. Jackson. If you did not so know, say so. 
f Dr. Keller. Sir, I have no recollection whatsoever of seeing the 
' person that I remember meeting as Eossi in a meeting, a closed meet- 
ing, of the Communist Party branch. 

Mr. Jackson. Irrespective of that, did you know him as a member 
of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. I knew him as neither a member of the Communist 
Party nor anything else, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. We are not going to take up the time of the com- 
mittee to inquire regarding your knowledge of any other persons, but 
we will in the course of time desire to interrogate you further with 
■regard to other persons. 

^ Let me ask you about your trip to France in 1939. Wliat was the 
purpose of that trip ? 

Dr. Keller. The purpose of my trip was to gain some firsthand 
acquaintance with France, which had been the subject of my studies 
[ for a long time. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you use the trip as an opportunity to gain any 
further information regarding communism ? 

Dr. Keller. No, sir, that was not one of my purposes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you pursue the study of communism in any way 
while in France ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, sir, I was interested in politics at that time. This 
was 1939 and it was just before the outbreak of the war, and I went to a 
good many events in Paris, both cultural and political — mostly cul- 
tural, operas and plays, and also did the usual social things that a 
person that age does in Paris, 

Mr. Tavenner. Let us confine ourselves just to communism. 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir. In the realm of communism I recall going 
to one large meeting addressed by Maurice Thorez, and also Jacques 
Duclos addressed that meeting; and, if I remember correctly, I went 
up to the platform. It wasn't a platform, it was a large schoolyard. 
and I went up there to where the speakers were and introduced myself 
and shook hands with Jacques Duclos, which at the time I was very 
proud doing. I had never heard of him before I went to France, but 
 he evidently was one of the leaders of the Communist Party and I was 
one in this country, so I considered it as somewhat of a treat to meet 
the gentleman, although he didn't pay much attention to me. 



6484 COMMUNIST ACTWITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

On another occasion, seeing an announcement of a neighborhood 
party group or branch, or whatever it was in one of the residential 
-district affairs, I went to tliat one and introduced myself at the door 
and went in. This was in 1939. I was 23 years old and rather enthusi- 
astic to take in every aspect of France I could. I could say the same 
things about a good many other activities that I did there. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you convinced that Jacques Duclos was a 
member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. I have no certain knowledge about Jacques Duclos, sir, 
except that I have read in the papers that he was a Comnmnist leader 
in France. 

Mr. Jackson. After he wrote the Duclos letter, did you reach the 
-conclusion that he must be a Communist ? That is a reasonable assump- 
tion. I don't think we can harm Mr. Duclos' reputation here in any 
way. 

I don't want any conjecture. Unless you are confident that he is 
a member of the Communist Party, I wouldn't want you to state it. 

Dr. Keller. Thank you, sir. I know that in the papers Duclos is 
often referred to as a leader of the Communist Party, and I don't see 
any reason why I should dispute that. 

Mr. Jackson. No. It is a reasonable assumption. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you terminate your relationship with the Com- 
munist Party at any time ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, it is terminated and it terminated a good many 
years ago. Since the Communist Party is not an organization from 
which one resigns very readily — I can't show j^ou a docimient that I 
terminated my membership. I can answer your question — yes, I ter- 
minated by simply not going to any more meetings or participating 
in any Communist activities of any sort. 

Mr. Tavenner. When do you consider that you terminated your 
relationship with the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, as I said, in order to be safe, thougli I felt rather 
removed in about the middle of 1945, I would say that by the end of 
1946 it was definitely terminated; I no longer considered myself a 
•Communist. And I can say this about myself, incidentally, because 
I know — I know for sure that I did not consider myself a Communist. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with a person by the 
name of Paul Chown ? 

Dr. Keller. Where is that, sir ? 

Mr. TA^■ENNER. In Seattle. 

Dr. Keller. No. 

Mr. Tavenner. Or in San Francisco ? 

Dr. Keller. In that area I did become acquainted with Paul Chown, 
3'es, sir, 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how he was employed at the time you 
knew him ? 

Dr. Keller. I don't have any recollection of that, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did he live in your home ? 

Dr. Keller, Idon'thaveany recollection of that, sir. 

Mr. ScHERER. Was that question did he live in his home ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. Either in San Francisco or in Seattle for 
any period of time ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6485 

Dr. Keller. Well, now, would you include in that, sir, his staying 
■overnight with us, or something of that sort ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I will include that. 

Dr. Keller. Oh. Oh, yes, I think on 1 or 2 occasions. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long would he spend at your home on occa- 
sions such as you have mentioned ? 

Dr. Keller. I would say 1 or 2 days, and probably once or twice 
in Seattle. I have no recollection of that in Berkeley, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, I must answer this question in the same manner 
as the other, as Paul Chown being one of the people about whom I have 
no certain knowledge as to his political views or affiliations, or as to 
his being a member of the Communist Party or as to his being a mem- 
ber of any other organization. I have no certain knowledge about his 
politics, and I hope I may be excused from speculating about him. 

Mr. Jackson. You did not then know him to be a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. Sir, may I sa}^ for all people other than the 2 whom 
I mentioned before and the 2 whom Mr. Tavenner mentioned to me, 
that about all these people I have no certain knowledge that they were 
members of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, you have no certain knowledge then that 
the individual in question was a member of the Communist Party. 
You have no certain knowledge that Dr. Weinberg was a member of 
the Communist Party. 

(At this point Messrs. Harlow and Asia conferred with Dr. Keller.) 

Dr. Keller. I have answered that for all these people, outside of the 
ones already 

Mr. Jackson. Specifically, you have no certain knowledge that Dr. 
Weinberg was a member of the Communist Party. 

Dr. Keller. Including the ones you mentioned. 

Mr. Jackson. That is correct? 

Dr. Keller. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I am not going to ask the witness 
any further questions at this time, but I desire to reserve the right to do 
so later. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer? 

Mr. Scherer. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. I would like to ask this. 

Doctor, I noticed that you made this statement, and I wrote it down : 
"Because they were made up of intellectuals like me. I knew nothing 
of espionage." 

Do you remember using that phrase — "Because they were made up 
of intellectuals like me" ? 

Dr. Keller. I think I recall that, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Wliat does that mean ? Does that mean there were no 
people that worked for daily wages in any of these Communist 
groups that you were a member of ? 

Dr. Keller. That is a fairly accurate statement, sir. I was asso- 
ciated with people like myself, who were connected with the university 
as far as I can recall and as far as I knew, because many of these 
people I just didn't know at all. 



6486 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. DoTLE. And you joined the Communist Party in what year? 

Dr. Keller. As I recall it, 1938. 

Mr. DoTi.E. And you stayed in the Communist Party until 1946? 

Dr. Keller. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. And you were an intellectual. 

What was there in the Communist Party all those years thai held 
you in it as an intellectual as contrasted to the theory of the American 
Constitution and Government with a free competitive enterprise 
system ? 

Dr. Keller. The thing that held me at the time that I was most 
strongly held was the so-called Browder line or the Browder position 
chat communism was an extension of American tradition — 20th cen- 
tury Americanism, if I remember the phrase correctly. That is the 
time that I was the happiest, because the Communist position at that 
time appeared to be an expansion — seemed to base itself on American 
traditions, and I firmly believed, along with the followers of the 
Browder position, that it was possible to bring about important 
changes in our form of government, in our institutions, within our 
democratic framework and by democratic means. Some of the things 
that were included and the reasons why I believed in the program 
at that time were what appeared to me a vigorous opposition to racial 
discrimination. 

Mr. DoTLE. Were there any Negroes in any of the Communist 
branches that you were a member of ? 

Dr. Keller. I have no recollection. 

Mr. DoTLE. Well, now, think a minute. You have classified your- 
self as an intellectual. If you were opposed to intolerance on account 
of color, you would remember whether or not there was any Negro in 
any of those Communist groups. 

Dr. Keller. Since I have no recollection and since there are very 
few Negroes, if any, who became graduate students or who did at that 
time at the University of California, on the face of it it would seem to 
me no. 

Mr. Doyle. Very well. 

Let us hurry along then — because you have taken over an hour 
and 5 minutes. I have just a couple of questions that I made note of 
here. ^' ' "' 

I Avas interested and quite shocked to hear you say, "I was in no 
position, physically, to attend the Communist meetings any more, as I 
was teaching in Stockton," and you, as I recall it, sir, gave that as the 
reason that you didn't continue attending Communist party meet- 
ings — not because you had changed your philosophy one iota. As I 
recall, the reason you stated tliat you grew away from the Communist 
Party meetings was because you couldn't get to them, physically.. 
Now isn't that a fact ? 

Dr. Keller. I would say both of those are facts. 

Mr. Doyle. They are facts ? 

Dr. Keller. It seems to me tliat that is an accurate statement. The 
immediate reason why, in any case, I couldn't have attended Com- 
munist Party meetings during the years 1945 and 1946, which is the 
year you are speaking of, is that I was out of town ; I was away from 
Berkeley. The other reason wliy I didn't and perhaps would not have 
had I been in Berkeley was that after the reversal of the Browder posi- 



COMMUNIST ACTR'ITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6487 

tion I no longer felt close to the Communist stand. As I said, it was 
during the time of the Browder policy that I was the happiest; and, 
after that, having in the past, as a matter of fact, not been a very good 
member in following party line, I didn't feel close to the party any 
more. 

Mr. Doyle. Just to make a brief observation, Mr. Chairman, I think, 
as a matter of historical record, that about that time, in April or May 
1945, the Duclos letter came to this country, at which time Mr. Brow- 
der was deposed as the head of the American Communist Party and 
Mr. Foster went in. At that time, as I recall it, the American Com- 
munist Party took up again the philosophy of the Soviet Communist 
Party, which advocated then, as it does now, the use of force and vio- 
lence if the capitalists resist the forceful revolution. 

But you had attended Communist Party meetings since that time, 
liadn't you ? 

Dr. fvELLER. Well, sir, I might say in partial explanation of this — 
that this is a rather personal thing ; that I am a rather slow type of 
individual — I do things very slowly. Things grow upon me and it is 
difficult for me to make a break from something. This just happens 
to be true. 

. And during the time I was in the party, and even attending meet- 
ings with some regularity — though never very regularly — I often dif- 
fered on things like whether Gerald L, K. Smith ought to be permitted 
to speak, and so on. 

Mr. Doyle. May I interrupt you? Because we are not interested 
in him at this time. 

I will ask you to answer my question. Isn't it the fact that after 
you had knowledge of the fact that Earl Browder was deposed from 
the American Communist Party because he advocated the coexist- 
ence of the Communist philosophy and the American free competi- 
tive enterprise system in the same world — isn't it a fact that after he 
was deposed and discharged from the American Communist Party 
because he advocated that and after it became known to you that the 
American Communist Party had taken back again the philosophy of 
using force and violence, if necessary, to put over their revolution if 
the capitalists resisted them, you still identified yourself with Com- 
munist Party meetings ? Is that true ? 

Dr. Keller. If the dates at which the party reversal took place are 
accurate, I should think 

Mr. Doyle. They are approximately accurate in your mind. 

Dr. Keller. What I can say is that a short time after this reversal, 
I felt out of sympathy with the party position. 

Mr. Doyle. Did you drop out of the Communist Party a short time 
after that ? If not, why not ? 

Dr. Keller. _I am afraid my only answer to that can be a pei*sonal 
one. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, it is very personal, I should think. 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir, it is. It took me a long time to join the Com- 
munist Party. You might equally ask me why I didn't join the 
Communist Party before 1938. 

Mr. Doyle. I am going to interrupt you at this point and make 
a very brief statement about the time that we have taken with you. 
We have done so in order that you might have no possible feeling 
that you have been hurried in your answers. 



6488 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

But I wish to say that I have been asked many, many times why 
intellectuals are attracted to the Communist philosophy and why it 
is after this Duclos-Browder-Foster incident in April and May of 1945 
you gentlemen who classify yourself as intellectuals still stayed in; 
the Communist Party, knowing the philosophy of Duclos of using 
force and violence if and wdien necessary. 

Now I just pray to God, sir, that there are not many intellectuals 
in our American universities that are as slow as you were in getting: 
out of it. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have anything further, Mr. Scherer ? 

Mr. Scherer. I have nothing further. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Counsel? 

Mr. Tavenner. I have one further question. 

What have you done since 1946, if anything, against the Commu- 
nist Party ? 

Dr. Keller. Well, sir, I hope I have done some good things in other 
directions. 

That is a rather negative question. I believe that I am a good loyal 
American, and I believe that I support the causes that I believe in ; 
and, for the most part, of course I have lost my great interest in 
politics, which never occupied a very important position in my life. 
But in the last years, with a famil;y and with an academic position,. 
I am not a very active person in politics. 

Mr. Tavenneii. Have you ever taken a public position against com- 
munism since you withdrew from the party ? 

Dr. Keller. There has never been any occasion for it, sir. I am not 
a celebrity and nobody was much interested in my politics, until 
this moment, that is. I teach, and it seems to me that my teaching, to 
the extent that this comes up, is in accord with good American demo- 
cratic principles. 

I don't know precisely what you mean, sir. There wouldn't be 
occasion for me to make a public announcement of the fact that I am 
out of sympathy with the Communist Party. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been requested at any time since 1946 ta 
disclose the fact as to whether or not you were a member of the Com- 
munist Party, other than the time that you visited the State Depart- 
ment with regard to your passport ? 

Dr. Keller. In the form of a signed or sworn statement ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, or casual inquiry — either one. 

Dr. Keller. I can't recall if anybody ever asked me whether I am a 
member of the Communist Party— I am perfectly willing to tell them 
the truth. I do recall that when the University of Washington, along 
with the rest of the State of Washington, instituted its present loyalty 
oath, I was required to swear that I was not a member of a subversive 
organization, and I presume that the Communist Party means "sub- 
vei-sive organization." I signed that statement, sir, I believe that was 
in 1951. 

Mr. Jackson. That was compulsory on the part of all faculty mem- 
bers. 

Dr. Keller. Yes, sir, that is a required oath ; that is right. 
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer? 
Mr. Scherer. No questions. 
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6489 

Mr. Doyle. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. I should like to make a very short observation, and I 
speak only for myself in this matter, unless the other committee mem- 
ber wish to associate themselves with it. 

With regard to the testimony of any witness before this committee, 
the character of that testimony can only be judged, in my opinion, by" 
complete willingness, complete and absolute frankness with respect 
not only to one's own activities while a member of the conspiracy, but 
also extending to the point of a free and frank discussion of those with 
whom he was associated in the conspiracy. The character of the testi- 
mony of the present witness, in my judgment, has not been marked by 
such forthright statements, particularly with reference to the testi- 
mony concerning Dr. Weinberg. In that connection I consider the 
testimony to be inadequate, incomplete and evasive. 

Is there anything further, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. I wish the record to show that I join in that appraise- 
ment of the witness' testimony. 

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be 
excused ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Subject, if you please, to our desire to question the 
witness further. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. The subpena under which the witness- 
appeared today is extended and the witness or his counsel will be noti- 
fied. (Witness was excused.) 

(Whereupon, at 3 : 25 p. rii., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene 
at 3: 40 p. m.) 
J (Whereupon, at 3 : 40 p. m., the hearing was reconvened.) 

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order. 

Let the record show that a quorum of the subcommittee is present. 

Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Harold W. Sunoo. 

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD W. SUNOO 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand, please ? 

In the testimony you are about to give before this subcommittee, 
llo you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, 
I md nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Harold W. Sunoo. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are not accompanied by counsel. 
[t is the practice of the committee to explain to each witness that he 
las a right to consult counsel at any time he desires during the period 
)f his testimony. 

Mr. SuNOO. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you willing to proceed without counsel ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Sunoo? 

Mr. Sunoo. I was born in Puiong-Yang, Korea, February 2, 1918. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ? 

Mr. Sunoo. Yes, I am. 



6490 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien and where were you naturalized ? 

Mr. SuNOo. December 1945, Phoenix, Ariz., where I was in the 
United States Army. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you now reside ? 

Mr. SuNOO. San Francisco, Calif. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I am an editorial clerk on the San Francisco Chronicle' 
newspaper. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your: 
formal educational training has been ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I finished my high school in Korea. I went to Tokyo, 
Japan, attended Aoyama Gakuin Seminary, a missionary school. I 
attended there 2 years preparing to be a minister in the Methodist 
Church, 

I came to the United States in 1938, attended the Bible Institute 
of Los Angeles and transferred to Pasadena College, Pasadena, Calif., 
from 1938 to 1943. I received my bachelor of arts. 

I went to the University of California at Berkeley, stayed there 1 
year teaching and studying. 

I came to the University of Washington 1943, studying and teach- 
ing, 1943 to 1949. I received my master of arts — studied for my 
doctorate. 

I also had correspondence study at the London School of Eco- 
nomics, University of London. I went to Czechoslovakia. I went to 
King Charles University. I received my doctorate in history. 

I came to the United States back in 1950, attended Stanford Uni- 
versity, Golden Gate University — business course, and went some more 
night school, University of California during the night. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you one of the witnesses in behalf of the 
.Government in the Smith Act case recently tried in Seattle ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or 
not you had any affiliation with the Communist Party in Korea, in 
Japan, or in this country prior to your becoming a student and teacher' 
at Washington University in Seattle ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I never was affiliated with the Communist Party until 
I came to Seattle, Wash. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, very briefly, 
how you became a member of the Communist Party after coming to 
Seattle? 

Mr. Sttnoo. I became a Christian at the age of IG in Korea and 
determined to be a minister in the church. I dedicated myself for 
that mission when I was young. I came to America for that purpose 
and further training to be a minister, and I went to school for that 
purpose. 

When I came to Seattle in 1943, my purpose and aim of life had not 
been changed. However, I came to some unpleasant experience in' 
finding house and in the race prejudice problem, and I was very much 
shocked. 

Mr. Tavenner, Do you mean discrimination against you because 
of your Oriental origin ? 

Mr. SuNOO. That was the thought I had at the time. Of course it 
was wartime and very difficult to find a house and a room. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6491 

^ Up to that day I already believed the United States of America 
was the next nearest to paradise. That is the dream and ideas many 
thousands of Oriental youngsters have, and I was one of them. 

When I went to United States Army, I traveled quite a bit in South- 
ern States. I discovered unpleasantness, discriminating against Ne- 
groes, et cetera, and I was very much upset. I thought these were 
against the belief I had as a Christian. 

When I came back to Seattle in 1946, after discharge from the 
United States Army 

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you serve in the United States Army ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I served from June to December in 1945. 

I was very much disturbed. At the time a man I was acquainted 
with previously. Dr. Joe Lane, retired physician, contacted me and 
tried to convince me that the Communist Party is the only party to 
fight against race discrimination, peace, equality, and so on. 

At this time I have learned through my studies and through friends 
in Korea, divided north and south, occupied by Soviet Union in north 
and American troops in south, and information I received was pre- 
dominantly in favor of communism ; that is, most of it — say, 80 to 85 
to 90 percent of intellectuals were in favor of communism or leftwing 
faction. And I consider myself as an intellectual, and I dedicated 
myself to the cause of free Korea. I didn't want to be left out from 
the intellectual groups and I didn't want to be left out from the future 
leadership. 

And particularly at this stage, I want you to remember American 
foreign policy was leaving out Korea at the Pacific defense line that 
was specified by Dean Acheson's speech. So to my mind and to many 
intellectuals, as there were Korean Communists, Korea would be left 
out; that is, if Communists is strong enough to take over, Korea 
will be Communist state, and in my mind there was no question the 
Communists was most well organized party and the most efficient 
group and in due time would take over Korea. 

With these external conditions and internal emotional and mental 

preparedness on my part, I was ready to join the Communist Party, 

which at the time dedicated and did promote for peace and equality 

for minority groups, and so on. So I was convinced by Dr. Lane and 

. joined the Communist Party in 1946. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. SuNOO. I left the Communist Party in August, 1949, at the time 
when I left Seattle for Europe. 

Mr. Tavenner. We want you to explain somewhat in detail the cir- 
cumstances under which you terminated your affiliation with the Com- 
munist Party, but let us wait until the ordinary sequence develops 
that point. 

Mr. SuNOO. In 1949, just prior to my departure from Seattle and 
leaving from the party 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me suggest that I will give you full opportunity 
later to develop the circumstances under which you left the Commu- 
nist Party. I wanted it to appear now that you have left the Com- 
munist Party, but let us go back to the time when you first became a 
member. 

Were you assigned to a particular group or cell of the Communist 
Party when you became a member ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Yes, sir. 



6492 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. 'Wliat was the approximate date when you joined 
the party ? 

Mr. Suisroo. It was sometime early part of 1946, as soon as I came 
back from the Army. That is January 1946. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Will you describe the group of the Communist 
Party to which you were assigned ? 

Mr. SuNOo. I was assigned to what was known as the University 
A Club. 

Mr. Tavenner. How many persons were members of that club ? 

Mr. SuNOO. There were about a half-dozen people in the club. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were any members of the faculty at Washington 
University members of that club when you joined it? 

Mr. SuNOO. Prof. Joe Butterworth was chairman of the club. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were there any other persons identified with the 
university who were members of that club ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Later on, Dr. Herbert Phillips came into the club and 
Dr. Ralph Gundlach, I think, also did. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long did that group or cell of the Coimnunist 
Party remain in existence? 

Mr. SuNoo. In the beginning, when I became a club member there, 
I would say about a half-dozen people. Then later another University 
Faculty Club merged with that club, because of a small group 
remaining in the University Campus Club. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was that Campus Club made up of members of the 
student body, as well as persons associated as employees of the 
XTniversity, either as teachers or in other capacities? 

Mr. SuNOo. There were different groups among students and faculty 
members; they did not mix together. I am referring to University 
Faculty Club— those were the members of faculty, not students. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now when you said Faculty Club, did you mean 
-Faculty Club of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. SuNOO. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Who were the other members of the Faculty Club 
of the Communist Party besides those you have already mentioned? 

Mr. SuNoo. I mentioned Phillips and Gundlach, who joined the Uni- 
versity A Club later. Prior to that I do not know who were the mem- 
bers of University Faculty Club. I was not a member and I never 
attend their meeting. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how long this Faculty Club continued 
to exist and operate on the campus ? 

Mr. SuNOO. As far as I know, it was there for some time, until we 

merged together with the University A and the Faculty Club together. 

Mr. Tavenner. After the merger took place, who were members 

of the faculty who became members of this group, in addition to those 

you have mentioned, if any ? 

Mr. SuNoo. There were none. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long did this merger group continue to exist 
as a Communist Party unit ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Until' the time I left, was a merged group as Univer- 
sity A. 

Mr. TA^^ENNER. And what was the date when you left? 
Mr. SuNoo. That was August 1949. 

Mr. Tavenner. During the period of time that you were a member 
of that group of the Connnunist Party, did you have occasion to meet 
higher functionaries of the Communist Party from Seattle? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6493 

Mr. SuNOO. Yes, I did. I met Henry Huff, John Daschbach, Tom 
Kabbitt, Barbara Hartle, Clayton Van Lydegraf , Ralph Hall, or those 
top leaders of the State at the time. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were there other members of your former country, 
either present or former citizens, who were members of this same 
group of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. SuNOo. Yes, there was one. His name is Lee. He was a 
reverend. 

Mr. Taa'enner. Wliat is his other name ? 

Mr. SuNoo. Reverend Lee. 

Mr. Tavenner. Reverend Lee. That is not his full name, however. 

Mr, SuNOO. First name is Sa Min. He changed it to Sa Min from 
Kyung Sun. 

Mr. Tavenner. So Reverend Lee was a member of this group ? 

Mr. SuNOo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did he join before you did or after you became a 
member ? 

Mr. SuNOO. He joined in Washington, D. C, and transferred over 
to Seattle when he came out here. 

Mr. Jackson. You say he was a reverend. Was he an ordained 
minister ? 

Mr. SuNoo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Of what denomination ? 

Mr. SuNOO. He was minister in Methodist Church. 

Mr. Jackson. Where did his ordination take place ? 

Mr. SuNOO. In Korea, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where is he now ? 

Mr. SuNoo. He is in North Korea. 

Mr. Jackson. As a minister, in North Korea ? 

Mr. SuNoo. No, sir. He went to North Korea through Europe 
about the time I went to Europe, via Moscow to North Korea. He is 
no longer holding minister of Methodist Church; he left the church 
and became a Communist. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether he holds any official posi- 
tion in North Korea ? 

Mr. SuNoo. I do not think so. I have heard he is still alive and 
they sent him to Communist leader-training camp for further orienta- 
tion because he came from United States. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you have occasion to discuss with Communist 
Party leaders in Seattle the plans of the Communist Party with ref- 
-erence to nationalist groups in this country ? 

Mr. SuNoo. The Communist Party at the time discouraged any 
national group as such group isolated by themselves. They object to 
such group, and once Van Lydegraf told me the Communist Party 
had the unpleasant experience with a Norwegian group in Seattle. 
They had a Norwegian branch, national group, and they became iso- 
lated and became ineffective, so the policy was not to have isolated 
nation groups at the time. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee what interest the Com- 
munist Party of the United States took in problems of your nation at 
that time ? 

Mr. SuNOO. At the time my position was definitely for North Korea 
and for North Korea's unification — unification of Korea under North 
Korea's domination ; that is, in Communist domination — and my view 



6494 COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

was well expressed on numerous occasions, and the party, I believe, 
endorsed my view. 

Mr. TA^^ENNER. Did you attain sufficient prominence in the Com- 
munist Party here to be given an office of any character in the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Yes, sir. I became educational director of 32d subdis- 
trict of North King County district, after I received 2 weeks intensive 
training in the leaders' training school. 

Mr. Tavexner. Where did you receive that training ? 

Mr. SuNOO. In Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the school, if it had a name? 

Mr. SuNoo. It was named Northwest District Communist Leader- 
ship Training School. 

Mr. Tavenner. Who were the teachers in that school ? 

Mr. SuNoo. Henry Huff, Van Lydegraf, Ed Alexander, Barbara 
Hartle, Ralph Hall. Andrew Eemes also was there. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did your duties as educational director carry you 
to various clubs within the district ? 

Mr. SuNoo. I didn't have to attend every club meeting. However^ 
I was assigned to see each club's educational program carried out. My 
job was to contact those educational directors of the clubs. 

Mr. Tavenner. What were the names of those clubs ? 

Mr. SuNoo. There were 6 clubs under my jurisdiction : University 
"A" — my club. University Faculty Club, Union Bay Village Club, 
and 2 student clubs. 

Mr. Tavenxer. Now you mentioned again this faculty club. You 
have told us that the faculty club merged with branch "A" of Wash- 
ington University. What was the reason for the merger ? 

Mr. SuNOO. After the Canwell committee hearing, the faculty clubs 
of the Communist Party practically became ineffective and could not 
be carried out. 

Mr. Tavenner. Why was that ? 

Mr. SuNoo. There were no Communists on the faculty — no reason 
to keep faculty where there was no members. 

Mr. Tavenner. It was a name only, without component parts: is 
that it? F i . 

Mr. SuNOO. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Well, what was the effect, generally, of the Canwell 
hearings upon the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Suxoo. As I understand, some time ago they had quite a big siz- 
able faculty Communist club, numbering somewhere around 15, but 
the time when I left — well, after the Canwell committee hearing, as 
far as I know, I was the only Communist faculty member remaining, 
because some were discharged from the university and some announced 
that they were no longer members — for those reasons. 

Mr. Tavexxer. In other words, as a result of exposure, the Com- 
munist Party was retarded very substantially in its activities in that 
neighborhood ? 

Mr. Sttxoo. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Tavexxer. And to such extent, the remnants had to merge with 
another group of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Suxoo. That is right, sir. Dr. Phillips and Professor Butter- 
worth were no longer members of the faculty and, naturally, they 
couldn't be qualified to member of faculty club. 



2 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6495 

Mr. Tavenner. Now I would like to ask you numerous questions 
regarding your experiences in the Communist Party in Seattle, but 
time does not permit us to do it — at least at this time. 

Let us go directly to another subject matter. During the period 
that you were a member of the Communist Party in Seattle, to what 
extent did you keep in touch with other persons of your original 
nation or citizenship? 

Mr. SuNOO. I had been closely contact and observed the situation 
in Korea ; especially I was attempt to make a contact with the leaders 
of North Korea, seeing that how I, as a Communist, can be helpful 
to the cause of North Korean Government. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you reported these facts and what you now 
propose to tell this committee to the Federal Bureau of Investigation ? 

Mr. SuNOO. My testimony, I believe, is in the file of the Federal 
Bureau of Investigation or Immigration office. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were any other persons interested, along with you., 
in seeking a means of keeping in touch with the Communists in North 
Korea ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Reverend Lee was also very much interested, more 
than perhaps I was. We were trying to do something to that effect — 
helping North Korean Government. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now to what extent, if any, did Communist Party 
leaders here in Seattle know of your general purposes to get in touch 
with Communists of North Korea ? 

Mr, SuNOO. I did not seek any advice from them and they didn't 
tell me about the problems. Wliat I have done with regard to that 
problem was my own, limited to my Korean friends alone. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the policy of the Communist Party of 
the United States, insofar as you observed it in Seattle at that time, 
with regard to cooperation between the Communists of the United 
States and the Communists of Korea ? 

Mr. SuNOO. The Communists here at the time was not too much 
interested in Korean problems, but they did express and they were 
interested in Chinese problems, because China became Commur.ist 
in 1948. All Communists were very much excited over the situation ; 
and I was, excepting Reverend Lee, only oriental Communist around 
here and, knowing better than most other Communists do situation 
about the Far East, I was invited to address number of Communist 
meetings about Chinese situation. And I remember Ed Alexander, 
as a district education director, issued an outline about China — how 
significant it is that China became Communist — and I very much 
agreed with the pamphlet and I spoke a great deal about it. 

Mr. Tavenner. This was before matters in Korea had become acute, 
was it not ? 

Mr. SuNOO. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. About what is the date or period of which you have 
just been speaking ? 

Mr. SuNOO. 1948 to 1949. That is before Korea war became exist 
and Korea became the focus of attention of the people. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now you said there was an effort or at least a 
desire on your part, as a former citizen of Korea, to get in touch with 
the Communists of North Korea. What did you do about that? 

Mr. SuNOO. Reverend Lee and I sent a long informative letter ad- 
dressed to Premier Kim U Sung of North Korean Government and 



6496 CORIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

the Foreign Affairs Minister Pak Hyun Yong. We sent a letter ad- 
dressed to these persons. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now Kim was the Prime Minister of North Korea 
and Pak was the Foreign Minister, is that correct ? 

Mr. SuNOO. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. What method was used to transmit this document 
to the Prime Minister of Korea, North Korea ? 

Mr. SuNOO. We had tried to send through mail. We knew that it 
would be very dangerous and difficult, if not impossible. At the time 
we had Korean friend in Seattle who was going to go to Korea, South 
Korea, that is, to get his children over to United States — his wife was 
here ; and he was willing to take the message, the letter. We gave it 
to him. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was it the intention that this document should be 
delivered to underground sources in South Korea for delivery eventu- 
ally in North Korea ? 

Mr. SuNOO. We knew that there were underground movement be- 
tween North and South Korea and we also were convinced if we give 
this letter to underground agent in South it would go to the hands 
of North Korea, and get reply back when he returns back here. We 
had that assurance — not in the absolute sense, but we believed it could 
be done. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of your friend who was in 
Seattle at the time who would perform this duty of delivery of the 
document to an underground source in South Korea ? 

Mr. SuNOO. His name is Namkung — last name, and Joshel — 
J-o-s-h-e-1. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was such a letter or document prepared ? 

Mr. SuNOO. It was prepared by Reverend Lee, and I was cosigner of 
the letter. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state, in a general way, what the purpose 
of this document was ? 

Mr. SuNOo. The main idea was to inform the situation, that is, 
political and economic situation of the United States and suggest that 
what we Communist sympathizers among Koreans here in the United 
States could do for the cause of Korean Communists, particularly in 
the sense of propaganda — that is, "North Korean Government is the 
government of the people and the choice of the people" — in that effect. 

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a document which 
I liave earlier handed to you and which you have thoroughly read- 
Will you examine it, please? 

(AVitness examined document.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state whether or not that is the document 
which I have handed to you earlier and which you have thoroughly 
read ? 

Mr. SuNOO. This is the document wliich I have read previously, the 
complete translation of Korean which we have sent to North Korea 
through Mr. Namkung. 

Mr. Jackson. It is in all respects an accurate translation of the orig- 
inal letter ? 

Mr. SuNoo. I believe it is; unless I have original copy to compare 
word for word, I cannot make sure and make a positive statement. 

Mr. Jackson. But in general ? 

Mr. Sunoo. In general, yes. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6497 

Mr. Jackson. Thank you. 

Mr. Taa'ennek. After having read the document, you are able to 
identify it as containing the information which was in the original 
document written in the Korean language and which you delivere(i 
for transportation to South Korea, thence to North Korea ? 

Mr. SuNOO. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. The document has no date on it. Do you recall the^ 
approximate date when the document was prepared ? 

I beg your pardon. At the close of the document there is a date.. 
Will you examine it, please, and state whether or not that represents 
the date on which it was prepared ? 

(Witness again examines document.) 

Mr. SuNOo. Date, November 15, 1948, sir. 

Mr. Tavennek. I desire to introduce the document into evidence,. 
Mr. Chairman, and ask that it be marked "Sunoo exhibit No. 1." 

Mr. Jackson, It will be so admitted, 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I desire to read the document in evi- 
dence and, during the course of the reading, in an effort to save time,, 
to pause and ask questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. Proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. Does the witness have a copy before him ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I have a copy, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. "To Conu'ades : Kim II Sung, Pak Hyun Yong." 

The first mentioned was the Prime Minister of North Korea and the- 
second the Foreign Minister, is that correct ? 

Mr. SuNoo. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. "This letter is being written in the belief that it will 
be delivered through a trustworthy messenger, i. e. utilizing the re- 
turn home of comrade Joshel Namkung. This writer transmitted to 
3omrade Kim II Sung for the first time since liberation in April 1947 
the situation of Korean residents on this side of the Pacific, the prog- 
ress of the independence movement, conditions in the United States 
and activities of party comrades, through Dr. Han Hung Su, who re- 
sided in the capital of Czechoslovakia and through representatives; 
who participated in the World Professional League which opened, 
here." 

Now will you tell us more in detail what was meant by that ; that is,, 
what message it was that you sent to the prime minister through Dr. 

tHan who resided in the capital of Czechoslovakia ? 
Mr. SuNOO. Mr. Lee had regular communication in Czechoslovakia. 
However, I did not have any communication with him. 
Mr. Tavenner. (reading) : In July of the same year a translation copy of 
'Dialectical Materialism" and a letter were sent througli a representative who 
participated in the World Young Men's Meeting. In September of this year while 
: was staying in Los Angeles, Calif., a letter was sent to comrade Kim II Sung 
mder tlie name of four connades : Pyon Chun Ho, Kim Kang, Hyon Alice,^ and 
aiyself, Lee Sa Min through comrade Chong Wellington who departed to study 
it the capital of Czechoslovakia. 

I want to pause to ask you whether or not the name Alice Hyon haci 
[another spelling, as well as H-y-o-n ? 

Mr. SuNOO. H-y-u-n would be correct spelling, sir. 



^ Correct spelling of this name is Alice Hyun. 



6498 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 1 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Mr. Chairman, Alice Hyun was the subject of inves- \ 
tigation by this committee in Hawaii in 1950 and is tlie subject of a ; 
committee report — not the sole subject of the report, but there is quite 
extensive evidence that the committee has collected in regard to her i 
activities in Hawaii.  

It is unnecessary to write about the tilings reported in these letters, so I will i 

write about conditions in the United States as seen at this time of the recent elec- i 

tions, the activities of party members in the United States and liaison with our ( 
home country. 

Then there appears in the center of the page a title: "Conditions { 
in the United States." 

The document then describes at some length the views of the writers 
regarding the issues in the election and the part that different persons 
played in the election, the presidential election in this country, which 
I will not take the time to read. 

The next heading is "Activities of Party Members," which I will 
read. 

We, the members of this party, following the pattern of the United States Com- 
munist Party activity, have been steadily i^erforming our assigned duties in order 
to fulfill the mission of liberating the fatherland. The present party membership 
totals 26 : 13 in Los Angeles, 1 in San Francisco, 5 in Seattle, 1 in Chicago, 4 in 
New Yoris and 2 in Washington. 

Now may I ask at this point what party was that of which the docu- 
ment speaks that contained 26 members ? 

Mr. SuNoo. The party is what he was going to organize. There was 
no party, as such, existing at the time when he wrote this one, but he 
was planning to organize those North Korean sympathizers among 
Korean residents in the United States. 

Mr. Tavenner. In referring to this group as following the pattern 
of the United States Communist Party activity, was it meant to indi- 
cate that these 26 persons were members of the Communist Party in 
this country or not ? 

Mr. SuNoo. No, sir. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Were some of those persons members of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mr. SuNOo. Yes, that is right, sir. Some of them were members 
of party but not all 26. 

Mr. Tavenner (reading) : 

Since the majority of members are in Los Angeles, and it being a center of | 
the Korean settlement, we have reorganized the Korean group (once organized 
but dissolved within a year), with the permission and approval of the United 
States Communist Party. Having resumed our activities and set our policies, a 
meeting is held once a month to collect information, receive reports from out- 
lying members and discuss Korean problems. 

May I ask you to describe to the committee what was meant by 
"approval of the United States Communist Party" in the organiza- 1 
tion at Los Angeles? 

Mr. SuNoo. Since this same Mr. Lee came to United States in 1937, 
he has been organizing also the party and political group; and in! 
Los Angeles, where most of Koreans live, they were attempting to 
organize Korean Communist group in the United States Communist I 
Party — so I was informed — but the Communist Party of United States 
discouraged them to do so. Wliether they actually organized it or not, I 
I do not know. However, they were attempting to do that. But the i 



\ 






COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6499 

Communist Party's position was ajj;ain they didn't want to isolate 
Koreans alone; they want to mix with American party members. 

Mr. Tamsnner. This letter states that approval of the Communist 
Party had been obtained ? 

Mr. SuNoo. That part I do not know, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee whether or not Rever- 
end Lee was a member of the Communist Party before he came to the 
United States? 

Mr. SuNOO. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where he became a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. SuNOO. He joined the party in Washington, D. C, around 
1946 or 1947, as he said to me. 

Mr. Tavenner (reading) : 

The following seven members of our party have been appointed to represent 
the party : Pyon Chun Ho, Kim Kang, and Hyun Alice, all of Los Angeles ; 
Sonu Hak Won — 

That is yourself, is it not ? 
Mr. SuNoo, Yes, sir. 
Mr. Tavenner (reading) : 

And Lee Sa Min, Seattle : Sin Tu Sik, and Kwak Cong Sun, New York ; for 
liaison work among members, investigations of party policies and for liaison 
with the United States Communist Party headquarters. As for the party front 
organization there are the Democratic Peoples Front League and the Progres- 
sive Party Support Organization and they are openly keeping in contact with 
Korean peoples associations performing their present activities in groups with 
union organizations and other progressive parties. 

Recently the Progressive Party and union organizations held a mass meeting 
with the cooperation of the Democratic Peoples Front League and the Progres- 
sive Party Support Organization which progressed successfully, using the fol- 
lowing slogans : 

1. The United States Army must withdraw from South Korea as U. S. S. R. 
lid from North Korea. 

2. Announcement of the establishment of the North Korea Democratic Peo- 
ples Republic. 

3. Abolition of segregation of orientals in the United States. 

4. Unconditional release of the leaders of the United States Communist Party 
and Progressive Party. 

Now may I ask you if you can give the committee at this time more 
detailed information regarding the Progressive Party and union or- 
ganizations' mass meeting to which you refer here ? 

Mr. SuNOO. It was quite successful in Los Angeles. Those Koreans 
oarticipated in Progressive Party and some unions for this particular 
propaganda we are referring here. This was not done in Seattle or 
ilsewhere, as far as I know. 

Particularly we Communists took at the time — if United States 
A.rmy we drove from South Korea, the Communists had a good chance 
to unify Korea in a short period of time. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do not the four items that are mentioned here as 
ilogans constitute the Communist Party line at that particular time 
in tile United States ? 

Mr. SuNoo. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner (reading) : 

The national assemblies of Hawaii and the United States have denied recog- 
aitlon to the North Korean Government. Months ago the national assembly 
and we recommended recognition of the Republic which was organized in North 
Korea, throigh the Democratic Peoples Front League but no answer has yet 



6500 COMRIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

been received. We tried to send a message to the U. N. General Assembly ii 
Paris to advise withdravA'al of the United States Army from South Korea a: 
U. S. S. R. troops were withdrawn from North Korea through a national assem 
bly petition but failed. The Democratic Peoples Front League alone had sen i 
the message. 

The next heading is "The Independence News." 

Will you tell the committee what "The Independence News" wa 
and is ? 

Mr. SuNOO. That is a paper, weekly paper, published in Los Angele 
by a group of Koreans, both in English and in Korean. I was one o 
the sponsors to originate this paper, originated as a progressiv 
paper — gradually became a Communist-dominated paper. At th 
present time it became a monthly paper, still published in Los Angeles 
predominantly using propaganda materials from North Korea; tha 
is, they receive newspapers from North Korea and use those material 
for the newspaper. 

Mr. Tavenner. Even at the present time ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Even at the present time. 

Mr. Tavennei?. Do you know how that material is received fron 
North Korea ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I do not know, sir, but I believe it comes through regu 
lar mail channels. 

Mr. Jackson. Are there regular channels for mail now betweei 
N orth Korea and the United States ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I believe it comes through — this is my assumption; '. 
am not too sure. They probably send to Hong Kong, then Hong Kon| 
forward here ; and another channel probably was they sent to Czecho 
Slovakia, and in Czechoslovakia they forward this way. 

Mr. Tavenner. Just like many other propaganda documents ari 
distributed throughout this country from Prague, in Czechoslovakia 

Mr. SuNoo. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are there any members of the editorial staff of tha 
paper at the present time whom you can identify as members of th* 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I cannot identify or make the statement they are Com 
munist Party members. However, those editors and printers aD 
working closely with the paper are very closely following Communis! 
line, without any doubt, in my mind. 

Mr. Tavenner. And the paper is being used for propaganda pur 
poses designed to be of assistance to North Korea ? 

Mr. SuNOO. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. I continue to read : 

We publish weekly the Independence News as an organ of expression. Durinj 
wartime prosperity when our party members' income was high we expendec 
$10,000 annually, but now our newspaper is maintained at a cost of $3,000 pe: 
annum, prorated among standing party executives. This amount seems trivia f*'i 
but we party executives, totaling less than 20, have been devoting ourselves t< « i 
this mission. We publish 2,000 copies per edition which are distributed widel^'jjjj 
among the political leaders, unions, schools, libraries, churches and Korean com | ^ 
munities in Great Britain, China, Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Hawaii, and the Unite< 1 1 
States. We realize that the quality and quantity of our newspaper are beloviPP 
par but since there are numerous handicaps, it is hard to expect further improve|P« 
ment. T. 

We can, however, proudly say that we are the only ones who report correcl ^'ii 
Ideas and news on Korean people. Even some foreigners as well as our fello^^ Ji 
travelers state that the Independence News is the best among four othei J 
Korean newspapers. The news of North Korea has been reported only by th( i 



k 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6501 

Independence. We published your messages as soon as they were announced 
and we received the information. We printed the news and important announce- 
ments which were issued during the south-north convention held last August 
and September. We have decided to continue publication of this newspaper 
until the 38th parallel is abolished." 

I The next heading in the center of the page is "Pertaining to Liai- 
son," and reads as follows : 

I. It is absolutely imperative that liaison with our country be maintained 
through exchange of propaganda materials, news, information, newspapers, and 
periodicals. It seems, however, impossible under the present circumstances to 
maintain the flow of communications to our country through the North Korean 
missions in East European countries (i. e., Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc.). We 
were able to communicate several times while Han Hung Su was in Czecho- 
slovakia, but we have not had any word from there for approximately 1 year. 
We have not heard from comrade Chong Wellington who went over there a 
month ago. We have, however, received an unceusored letter in the United 
States from comrade Lee Tuk Hwan in P'yongyang through the U. S. S. R. 
If a letter is of a most urgent nature, it can be sent through our missions lo- 
cated in East European countries and the U. S. S. R. during their trips to this 
country. It is requested that you inform us of appropriate channels. The 

: addresses to be used for the purpose of communication to United States follow. 

And there your address and the address of Mr. Kim in Los Angeles 
ire given. 

II. Although almost all comrades here wish to repatriate, they were not per- 
mitted to repatriate even to South Korea, in spite of the fact that they had made 
application for repatriation after the liberation. Apparently the only waj to 
repatriate is through East European countries. We believe that some helpful 
arrangements by the missions of the East European countries should be made 
for this purpose. It is also requested that you inform us what appropriate 
steps should be taken, and what preparations are necessary, and information 
which would be of reference value, during our stay here in the United States. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, I would like to refer back to the para- 
graph at the top of this page, in which the suggestion is made that 
i if a letter is of a most urgent nature it can be sent through our mis- 
sions located in the East European countries and the U. S. S. R. dur- 
ing their trips to this country. 

Was that intended to suggest the use of the diplomatic pouch by 
regular diplomatic couriers by the North Korea missions in Eastern 
European countries ? 

Mr. SuNOO. At the time there was no diplomatic mission in Eastern 
European countries. If there was, we wouldn't hesitate to use it. 
, We are referring here primarily to Dr. Han, individually. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you know of any instance where the diplomatic 
pouch was used for the transmittal of messages or communications or 
iirectives ? 

Mr. SuNoo. We did use, during the war — getting information and 
news from China, we used the Chinese diplomatic mission in Los 
Angeles — I don't know how often, but I know we did use it. 

Mr. Jackson. Thank you. 

Mr. Tavenner (reading) : 

III. Any requests for information pertaining to research or survey which will 
help in the country's reconstruction will be heartily welcomed by us. We shall 
do our best to comply. If you have something to state on the individual's prob- 
lem of education, we can assure you that there are comrades who according to 
their technical qualification could engage in the field of industry, education, 
(journalism, medicine and politics in the future. If possible it is requested that 
you send a reply to this letter through the same channels by which it will be 
sent or through the east European countries. We also want to know about the 
departure of Dr. Han Hung Su from Korea. 



6502 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 



I 



Hurrah for the Korean Democratic People's Republic ! 

Hurrah for our true leaders, comrades Kim II Sung and Pak Hon Yong! 

Signed Lee Sa Min, Sonu Hak Won, representatives of party comrades iD_j 

Seattle, United States of America. {■ 

Then there is a postscript containing four paragraphs which read / 
as follows : | 

(1) The armed revolutionary movements which successively occurred in South 
Korea from the middle of October greatly stirred not only the United States 
populace and Government officials but also caused an international sensation. 

(2) We wish to send left-wing publications and other necessary books anc 
magazines to you if possible. Please advise us on this matter also. 

(3) A casting mold for use in a linotype machine for Korean characters Is 
made at a printing machinery company here. It can be purchased for only foui 
or five hundred won. If you can buy a linotypewriter, we will send you the cast 
Ing mold for Korean characters. By using this machine, it will be possible t< 
speed up and increase publication of Korean books. It will help greatly in publi< 
enlightenment movements. 

(4) If there are any books which must be translated urgently, send them t( 
us immediately so that our comrades can translate and ship them back. Please 
advise us on this matter also. 

Now, was that document delivered to the person known as Nam- 
kung for delivery in South Korea ? 

Mr, SuNOO. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. The date was November 15, 1948. 

Now will you tell the committee what led up to your change o:l 
thought and feeling about Communist supremacy in North Korea 
and let me suggest that you begin by telling the committee about youi 
attendance — the circumstances under which you attended certain con- 
ferences in New York and abroad ? 

Mr. SuNoo. I attended the National Human Rights Conference ir 
New York, July 1949, as a delegate of Civil Rights Congress and 
Washington Pension Union. I went there to make a brief speech. 

After I came back, I made several trips throughout the States and 
made reports and speeches remarking the importance of recognition oi 
Red China and having trade with Red China, so that all the longshore- 
men, warehouse union members can get their jobs back. 

During that time I was very much dissatisfied on what developed 
at the end of Canwell hearins: committee, because I disagreed with 
some of the party's policy. However, I never expressed in a party 
meeting, as such. 

And in September 1949 they were planning to have a World Con- 
ference of Human Rights, and John Daschbach, a director of the Civil 
Rights Congress in the State of Washington, asked me to go there a? 
a delegate. So I welcomed that opportunity; and, coincidentally," I 
was invited to teach at Charles University. j 

Mr. Tavenner. In what country ? ^ 

Mr. SuNOO. In Czechoslovakia. So John Daschbach helped me to | 
get visa for Czechoslovakia, writing to consul general in Chicago. . j 

Mr. Tavenner. The consul general of what country ? ^ t 

Mr. SuNoo. Czechoslovakia. So I got passport and visa. I left ^ 
the United Sattes in September 1949. j! 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you issued a passport by the State Depart- | 
ment? 

Mr. SuNOo. Yes, sir. | 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you advise the State Department as to the full j, 
purpose of your travel to Czechoslovakia ? 



J 



^ 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6503 

Mr. SuNoo. No, sir, I did not mention Czechoslovakia ; I just men- 
tioned trip to Europe. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did anyone advise you how to prepare that pass- 
port so that it would be issued by the State Department ? 

Mr. SuNOO. No, sir. I had ^ood commonsense. If I mentioned 
Czechoslovakia I would never j^et passport, so I didn't. 

Mr. Tavenner. What arrangements were made for your transpor- 
tation. 

Mr. SuNOO, I want to mention at this moment, I was dissatisfied 
with the Communist policy here. My disillusionment was not with the 
theory of communism itself; I didn't like the way, particularly Henry 
Buff, handles the party policy, with the Canwell hearings and uni- 
versity problems. = And at the same time I became very much confused 
and the conflict rose between my religion and communism. I want to 
mention that I never missed chuch all during the Communist member- 
ship. I was a church member — religious church member all the time. 
The more I learned about communism, it gave me more headache to 
solve the problem with my Christian view. 

So I wanted to find out exactly what is communism itself; that is, 
:o find out the theory and the practice in Czechoslovakia. I chose 

zechoslovakia because Czechoslovakia became Communist state in 
February 1948, without revolution — that is, I had a notion it is pos- 
sible to achieve socialism without proletarian dictatorship and the 
3est thing is for me to go there and find out. I got my passport and 
Visa, was ready to go. I sold my insurance policy and I sold my 
louse ; I was ready to go. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you furnished any funds by any group ? 

Mr. SuNOO. No, sir. No one gave me money for that trip. In fact, 
he Civil Rights Congress wasn't even able to pay my trip to New 
fork ; they still have my $200 to cover. 

I went to Europe with my own money. I went to Czechoslovakia 
September 1949, remain until May 1950. "Wlien I got there, they told 
ne the Human Rights Conference is indefinitely postponed. It didn't 
jother me because my main purpose was to go there, but not attending 
luman Rights Conference as a delegate was a minor part — my being 
here was important. 

I asked them why they postponed. They told me because govern- 
aent dislike the idea so many delegates come from capitalist state and 
hey can't trust all those people. 

And I want to mention that at the time there was problems, civil 

berty problems in Czechoslovakia — arresting many church members 
nd priests, and so on, and they didn't want to expose that situation, 
nd I understood that fully and I sympathized their postponement. 
Lnd they never held that meeting after that. 

Then as a delegate and a visiting professor, I was welcome and I 
ras able to visit numerous institutions and organizations, interview 
lany Government officials and party functionaries ; in other words, I 
.'as fully informed of the actual situation of Czechoslovakian life. 

Mr. Tavenner. And as an American Communist, you were fully 
) ccepted by the Communists of Czechoslovakia ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Yes, sir. And I went to visit coal mines and the country 
nd the farms. I talked to Communists ; I talked to non-Communists ; 

talked to ex-Communists — all kinds of people. 

I 



6504 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 



I 



h 



And the Communist Party says that they have about one-third of ; 
population that is composed of workers and are reliable. However, \ 
two-thirds of population, they refer to them as capitalists and artisans, 
who are still antistate and anti-Communist people. « 

Mr. Tavenner. I am not certain that I understood that. What per- I 
centage of the people did you say were anti-Communist in 
Czechoslovakia ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Two-thirds of population is composed of capitalists 
and artisans, according to the Communist Party and were not reliable : 
they were still taking antistate and anti-Communist positions. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yet the Communist Party had no difficulty in dom 
nating and controlling Czechoslovakia ? 

Mr. SuNOO. No, sir, they had very severe control. I saw and eye 
witnessed an actual situation, such as — the}^ needed some farm laborer: 
but no one wanted to volunteer from the cities. In one case the Com 
munist Party ordered about 200 clerks or city people — put them ii 
trucks and drove them out to farm and kept them outside there durinj 
the harvest season. But they never mentioned that in the paper, bu 
I saw them, 

Mr. Tavenner. Were those people taken against their wishes an( 
against their consent? 

Mr. Sun 00. Of course, sir. And the national secretary of the Com 
munist Party, the Czechoslovakian Communist Party, Eudolpl 
Slansky, made a speech where I attended to hear him, emphasizinj 
the Communist Party members' duty — they must fulfill the 5-yea 
economy plan by educating and disciplining the workers — telling their 
and convince them to extend their working hours and educate then 
that piece-rate and a bonus system is a good thing — and work hard h 
achieve for socialism. That was the astonishing statement I hearc 
because Communist Party is workers' party, and it is actually exploit 
ing the workers by extending working hours, encouraging bonus an< 
piece-rate speedup system. This same man Slansky made that state 
ment and 6 months later they hung him for a national traitor. 

I saw Communist leaders from all over the country, including fror 
North Korea, including General Nam II. I talked to him and I aske* 
this man Nam II how soon and when Korea would be unified, and h 
said "Wlien the people are ready." 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the position of Nam II at that time? 

Mr. SuNoo. Nam II was Deputy Minister of Education in Nort 
Korean Government. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was his general background ? 

Mr. SuNoo. He was trained in Moscow and went back to Korea an 
became professor at Kim II Sung University and became dean of col 
lege, and became Deputy Minister of Education. When I saw him i: 
Prague he was in that same capacity and representing North Korea 
Government in participating in celebration of a Czechoslovakian Ma 
festival. 

Nam II says when I asked him, "Suppose the South Korean Goven 
ment invade North Korea, are you ready to resist them?" that the 
are well prepared, and his position was confirmed from my form( 
comrades who were already in North Korea, who wrote to me and sai 
the situation there was like wartime — everything was on a wartin 
basis. 



f( 






COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6505 

Mr. Tavenner. Did those letters emanate from North or South 
Korea ? 

Mr. SuNOo. From North Korea. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the approximate date ? 

Mr. SuNOO. That was during early part of 1950. 

And when Nam II mentioned his war situation and that they are 
•eady to resist South Korean aggression, that was just about 6 weeks 
jrior to Korea war. 

I knew then soon that Korea war will be beginning and they will 
)e from North Korea. I was scared to return to North Korea then ; I 
lidn't make any effort to pursue to go to North Korea, the idea of 
^oing there, and had made up in my mind to come back to United 
states. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, at an earlier period, before you broke with 
ommunism, you had decided to go back to North Korea, had you not '? 

Mr. SuNOO. I was on the way to North Korea when I left here, 
lien I went to Czechoslovakia. My purpose was to go to North 
S^orea. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive any direct advice from North Korea 
•rior to the outbreak of hostilities, which would indicate clearly to you 
.whether it was North Korea or South Korea which started the 
ggression ? 

Mr. SuNOO. Except that my former comrade, a Communist, wha 

Iready was in North Korea, wrote me twice, stating, "Do not come 

ecause there is possibility of war," stating that it will be initiated by 

' louth Korean Government. Obviously, he can't say it will be initiated 

y North Korean Government ; such statement would never reach me. 

I want to point out that m_an I met as Nam II, who later became 
rmed negotiator of Communist camp, is not the same Nam II. The 
tiief negotiator and Minister of Foreign Affairs today who is in 
-eneva is an impostor ; he took name of Nam II because Nam II is a 

ell-known educator and respected by the jDeople. The other fellow, 
aposter, was chief propagandist of Communist Party in North 
!orea. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you mean that an effort was made to exhibit to 
le world that the man who was in charge of negotiations on behalf of 

orth Korea was the man that you met in Czechoslovakia — Nam II ? 

Mr. SuNoo. Is not the same person. The real name of person, im- 
oster Nam II, is Kim Chang Nan, who was chief propagandist of 

ommunist Party. 

Mr. Tavenner. Then that means that North Korea has attempted 

t make the Western World believe that the man that was in charge 

' negotiations was the man who was the teacher at the university that 

3u mentioned instead of the man who was actually operating in that 
ipacity ? 

Mr. SuNOO. That is right, sir. Probably the main reason is they 

ant to convince their own people more than anybody else that they 

'e represented by well-known educator rather than Communist 

"opagandist. 

Mr. Jackson. Is Nam II a common Korean name ? 

Mr. SuNOO. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. How can you be so certain that the Nam II who was 
charge of the peace negotiations is not the Nam II whom he is 

'presented to be ? 



6506 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 



I'' 



il'i 



Mr. SuNOO. I saw genuine Nam II in Prague and this imposter 
through photography. It cannot be the same person, and my beUef 
was confirmed later by South Korean Government intelligence 
source — they indicated he is imposter. 

Mr. Tavenner. After your observations of conditions in Czecho- 
slovakia, where communism had taken over without a bloody revolu- 
tion, what decision did you make with regard to your own attitude 
toward communism ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I was expecting to see the peaceful situation ; I was, at 
least for my part, hoping to see the achievement of socialism without 
bloody revolution, and a proletarian dictatorship is possible not only 
in theory but in practice. However, I found the contrary is true- 
that when I was there the people lived in fear; they lived not onlj 
in the disaster of the economic side but also completely lost froir 
freedom, individual freedom. I, as a Communist, was called by th( 
police on numerous occasions to identify' myself, and they questioned 
me whether I am a real Communist, in spite of I am there as a Com- 
munist and a visiting professor. And many individuals I had talked 
to, they all expressed like fear. And I saw those situations and ther 
I knew what they preach in theory and what they practice in rea! 
life are two different things. And I made up my mind — if this is true 
in Czechoslovakia, this can be worse in Russia — certainly it woulc' 
be worse in North Korea. And suddenly I could no longer pursue 
my original aim, that is, heading to North Korea, and I made up mj j 
mind to come back to the United States, to tell the truth of what 1 \ 
have seen, and especially to those people — Korean, Chinese, all thoi 
millions people in Asia that are at the present time fooled by the falsi 
promises of communism. I want them to realize before too late wha 
they say in Communist propaganda and what they actually practici 
?s not the same thing. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you realize that in making this statement yoi 
will, through the reports of this committee, speak to the people al 
over the world about your views on communism ? 

Mr. SuNoo. I like to express my views as often as I can and as man^ 
people as I can approach, not only just to expose communism, th( 
evils of communism — just exposing communism would be not enough 
from my point of view — but to offer to share the pride and the hopn 
in democracy and faith and spirit of freedom with them — not onl; 
do we share our material support and technical aid but our spiritua " 
value, share with them. That is the only way. When we only do sucl Vu 
sharing, I think we can convince the people that communism is no .^ 
for them. That is my firm conviction at the present time and I wil .'^ 
do my best to do justice to that. .' 

Mr. Tavenner. Now before we come to the method of your returi ! 
to the United States, for the purpose of telling the people of thi , 
country what you have seen and what your experiences have been ii - 
the short period of time that you were so personallj^ identified wit) * 
communism in Europe, I want to ask you whether or not you met an; 
Americans in Czechoslovakia? 

Mr. SuNOo. I met a well-known American there. His name i |' 
George S. Wheeler. This man took political as3dum in Czechoslc ,5 
vakia. '" 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what Wheeler's brother's name was 



1 



loi 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6507 

Mr. SuNoo. No, sir, I do not know. I know he is from Portland, 
Oreg. I do not know his brother's name. 

Mr. Tavenner. Would you recall it, do you think, if you heard it? 

Mr. SuNOO. No, sir, I do not know any of his relatives. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show at 
this point that it is Donald Niven Wheeler. 

Will you proceed ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I saw him and I went to his house and talked much 
about politics. And I was there when he became an international 
figure — became hero there since. 

Mr. Tavenner. Hero in whose sense ? 

Mr. SuNOO. In the Czechoslovakian sense, when he denounced 
America as imperialist and willing to stay and remain in Czechoslo- 
vakia. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat did you observe that Mr. Wheeler was doing 
in Czechoslovakia ? 

I Mr. SuNoo. He went around throughout the country making 
speeclies, denouncing American policy in the West, and that Czecho- 
slovakia and Soviet Union and the rest of the satellites really stand 
for peace and the people's democracy — he was making such a state- 
ment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did that seem to be his sole and only occupation, 
that of spreading Communist propaganda ? 

Mr. SuNOO. At that time he was too busy engaged in fulfilling all his 
I engagements on the speech tour. I think that was the only thing he 
was doing. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet any other American citizens of Ko- 
rean extraction in Czechoslovakia ? 

Mr. Sunoo. I met several students. I met American YMCA di- 
rector. 

Mr. Tavenner. Before you give the names of any of them, I want 
to know whether or not they were known to you to be members of 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr. SuNOO. No, sir, they were not Communists at all. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you see there any persons of Korean nationality 
or extraction who were known to you to be members of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. SuNOO. Wellington Chung. He was there as a medical student, 
American-Korean, son of Alice Hyun. I saw him often and I knew 
him as a Communist. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee now, please how you 
arranged to return to the United States after having entered upon the 
program of going behind the Iron Curtain and then changing your 
mind ? 

Mr. Stjnoo. My returning was more difficult than my going, because 
I knew if I returned I would face many problems, because I was a 
Communist. I also knew I would have much difficulty supporting my 
' family financially. However, my wife, she was deeply religious all 
throughout those days — still is — told me not to worry, just to return 
and we will find some way of living. I made up my mind then we 
can solve in some way our financial problems after our return. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any difficulty in returning? 



'6508 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTBTWEST AREA 

Mr. SuNOo. I had difficulty in Prague. It took me about 2 to 3 weeks 
to get permission to leave the country, especially leaving for the 
United States. I didn't tell them that I am going back to America: 
1 told them I am going to Italy — first to Austria and then Italj^ to ob- 
serve and making tour in Marshall plan country for further studies 
It took me 3 weeks to get permission to leave the country. As I say, ] 
had more difficult time to leave than going in. 

Mr. Tav-enner. And since your return to this country, you have, as 
I understand, done the best you can to make known to the people oJ 
your original nationality the facts relating to communism, as you ob 
served them ? 

Mr. SuNOO. I made it very clear ; I made the public statement ovei 
and over again, and I wrote in the papers, both in English and ii 
Korean, my opposition to the Communist view wliich I held. It i: 
a known fact that among Korean people that I am against communisn 
now. 

Mr. Tavenner. And this whole distressing experience which yoi 
have had was a result, in some measure at least, to the activities of th( 
Communist Party here in Seattle, was it not ? 

Mr. SuNoo. Yes, sir, my whole Communist activities were solely en 
gaged in Seattle — nowhere else. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. I want to compliment you on your cooperation with thi 
committee. Your story is especially interesting to me because I spen 
a week in Korea, the country of your birth, during the time of hostili 
ties there. I was there officially for the United States Congress, as i 
member of the Armed Services Committee, and apparently I was ii 
the very part of that country with which you are familiar and wer( 
raised in as a boy. 

Now in looking at line 3 of this letter — is the name Nanikung ? 

Mr. Stjnoo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Were you utilizing him because he was a Communist 
known to you to be a Communist ? 

Mr. SuNoo. No, sir. He was very good friend of mine. I was hop 
ing to recruit him to the Communist Party some day, naturally, as 5 
good Communist always is looking for good potential Communists 
and he was good man and I was going to recruit him, hoping to recrui 
him some day. But, as far as I know, he was not a party member at th' 
time and I could trust him because of his nature and character and . 
had confidence in him. 

He wasn't going to Korea purposely for delivering letter; he was 
going there for getting his children, and this was to give him to de 
liver for that occasion. 

Mr. Doyle. In other words, he was an adult person ? He was ai 
adult in age ? He was a married man ? 

Mr. SuNoo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. On behalf of the committee, Mr. Sunoo, I want to ex 
press our thanks to you. It is too bad that some of the domestic Com 
munists have not had an opportunity to see communism in action as i" 
is practiced througliout the world. 

You are in a unique situation, certainly, to make a splendid con 
tribution to the continued safety and welfare of your adopted land. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6509 

M All of us recognize tliat there are inequities and injustices but most 
'if us feel that those things will be better worked out and sooner 
svorked out within the framework of the American Constitution than 
fvithin the satellite orbit of the Soviet Union. 

With the very sincere thanks of the committee for your cooperation, 
you are excused from further attendance. 

Mr. SuNOO. Thank you, sir. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have anything further, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir, I have nothing further. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, the subcommittee will stand in recess until 
^ o'clock tomorrow morning. 

(Wliereupon, at 5 : 30 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene 
ftt 9 a. m., Saturday, June 19, 1954.) 



'IM 



INDEX TO PART 7 



Page 

Acbeson, Dean 6491 

ilexander, Edward 6494, 6495 

i^sia, Benjamin S 6454, 6463 

Bransten, Louise 6482 

Browder, Earl 6466, 6486-6488 

Butterworth, Joe 6492, 6494 

:anwell 6494, 6503 

:hong Wellington 6497, 6501, 6507 

Dhown, Paul 6484, 6485 

>ouch, Paul 6468 

Oaschbach, John 6493, 6502 

Dennett, Eugene V 6445-6454 (testimony) 

[)oyle, Bernadette 6467 

Duclos, Jacques 6466, 6483, 6484, 6488 

5^oster, William Z 6487, 6488 

Gundlach, Ralph 6492 

Hall, Ralph 6493, 6494 

aan Hung Su 6497, 6501 

aarlow, John S 6454, 6463 

Hartle, Barbara 6445, 6493, 6494 

aawkins, Dave 6465, 6466 

auff, Henry 6403, 6494, 6503 

3yun, Alice 6497-6409, 6507 

?!eller, Abraham Charles 6454-6489 (testimony) 

51m Chang Nan 6505 

Urn II Sung 6495-6497, 6501, 6502 

5im Kang 6497, 6499 

Iwak Cong Sun 6499 

lyung Sun 6493 

Lane, Joe 6491 

>e. Reverend 6493, 6495, 6496, 6499 

-.ee Sa Min 6497-6499,6502 

^ee Tuk Hwan 6501 

'-iomanitz, Giovanni Rossi (see also Rossi) 6482 

^acDonald, Kenneth A 6445, 6449 

Vlay, Kenneth (Kenny) 6464, 6466 

'^am II 6504-6506 

■famkung, Joshel 6496, 6497, 6508 

'Jelson, Steve 6467, 6482 

)ppenheimer, Frank 6481, 6482 

'ak Hyun Yong 6496, 6497, 6502 

'hillips, Herbert 6492. 6494 

'yon Chun Ho 6497,6499 

iabbitt, Tom 6493 

iemes, Andrew 6494 

iossi {see also Lomanitz, Giovanni Rossi) 6483 

?a Min (see also Kyung Sun) 6493 

Shipley, R. B 6458 

?in Tu Sik 6499 

; Slansky, Rudolph 6504 

I ?mith, Gerald L. K 6487 

I 3omi Hak Won (see also Sunoo, Harold W.) 6499,6502 

j ^unoo, Harold W. (see also Sonu Hak Won) 6489-6509 (testimony) 

I i 



it IKDEX 

Page 

Thorez, Maurice 6-483 

Van Lydeuraf, Clayton 6493,0494 

Weinberg, Joseph 6468-6482, 6485, G489 

Wheeler, Donald Niven 6507 

Wheeler, George S 6506 

Organizations 

Civil Rights Congress 6502, 6503 

Communist Party : 
California : 

Alameda County 6467 

Oakland 6462 

Washington State: 

North King County District 6494 

Seattle 649f; 

Union Bay Village Club 6494 

University A Club 6492, 6494 

University Campus Club 649S 

University Faculty Club 6492, 6494 

Democratic Peoples Front League 6499, 650C 

Federal Bureau of Investigation 6451, 6459^6461, 649r 

Fenn College, Cleveland, Ohio . 6455 

Harvard University 6456, 645^ 

Independence News - 6500, 6501 

Independent Progressive Party 8498 

Kim II Sung University 6504 

Leland Stanford University 649C 

National Human Rights Conference 6502 

Northwest District Communist Leadership Training School 6494 

Ohio State University 6455, 6458 

Pasadena College 649C 

Progressive Party Support Organization 6498 

San Francisco Chronicle 649( 

Socialist Workers Party 644S 

Stockton Junior College, Stockton, Calif 645£ 

United Nations General Assembly _l_ 650C 

United States Department of State, Passport Division 6457, 0459, 646( 

United Steelworkers of Amei'ica, Local 1208 644(: 

University of California, Berkeley 6455, 6462, 6464, 6482, 6486, 649( 

University of Washington 6455, 6456, 6488, 6490, 649i 

Washington Pension Union (see also Washington Old Age Pension Union ) _ (JnOi 

World Conference of Human Rights 6502, 650c 

World Professional League :_^^_'J__"1' 649^ 

Young Communist League :^__Ii^_J 6463„ 

o 



il 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE 
PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA— Part 8 (SEATTLE) 



HEARING 



BEFORE THE 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 



EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 



JUNE 19, 1954 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities 



INCLUDING INDEX 




UNITED STATES 
COVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
48069 WASHINGTON : 1954 



^' 



Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

OCT 2 7 1354 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
United States House of Representatives 

HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois, Chairman 

BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania 

DONALD L. JACKSON, California MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri 

KIT CLARDY, Michigan CLYDE DOYLE, California 

QOBDON H. SCHEBEB, Ohio JAMES B. FBAZIER, Je., Tennessee 

Robert L. Kcnzig, Counsel 

P"'RANK S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel 

Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk 

Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research 

CODRTNEY E. Owens, Chief Iwvestigator 

n 



CONTENTS 

June 19, 1954: 

Testimony of — . ^"S^* 

Johsel Namkung 6511 

Ralph George Davis 6513 

Victor Case 6515 

Elmer Strom 6516 

Hildur Josephine Hughes 6524 

Stanley O. Iverson 6526 

Melvin Ludington 6529 

William Carl Shifferly 6530 

Algot Starr 6533 

Verl F. Hemeke 6536 

Charles Elmer Thrasher 6540 

William K. Dobbins 6541 

George Russell 6543 

Wayne Paschal 6544 

Harry Crumbaker 6546 

John Caughlan 6561 

Statement of Alfred J. Schweppe 6562 

Testimony of — • 

John Caughlan (resumed) 6565 

Karley Larsen 6578 

Merwin L. Cole 6591 

Nels Spencer Ekroth 6592 

Laura Wilkins 6594 

Carl Backlund 6595 

Index i 

III 



Public Law 601, 79th Congress 

The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter 
753, 2d session, which provides: 

' Be it enacted hy the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
of America in Congress assembled, * * * 

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 



Rule X 

SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES 
*•*«•♦♦ 

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members. 

Rule XI 

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES 
******* 

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(A) Un-American activities. 

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit- 
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, 
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
( ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa- 
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attaclcs 
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and 
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces- 
sary remetlial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- 
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such 
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, 
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person 
designated by any such chairman or member. 



RULES ADOPTED BY THE 83D CONGRESS 
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1953 

* « « 4: * * 4: 

Rule X 

STANDING COMMITTEES 

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con- 
gress, the following standing committees : 

mm***** 

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members. 
******* 

Rule XI 

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES 



17. Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(a) Un-American activities. 

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, 
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char- 
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop- 
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and 
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu- 
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congi-ess 
in any necessary remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session ) the results of any such investi- 
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times 
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has 
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig- 
nated by any such chairman or member. 

VI 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE 
PACIFIC NOETHWEST AREA— Part 8 (SEATTLE) 



SATURDAY, JUNE 19, 1954 

United States House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee or the Committee on 

Un-American Activities, 

Seattle^ Wash. 
public hearing 

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities 
met, pursuant to recess, at 9 a. m., in room 402, County-City Building, 
Seattle, Wash., Hon. Donald L. Jackson (chairman) presiding. 

Committee members present: Representatives Donald L. Jackson 
and Clyde Doyle. 

Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; William 
A. Wheeler, staff investigator; and Mrs. Billie Wheeler, acting for 
the clerk. 

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order. 

Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Call your first witness. 

And let the record show that a quorum of the subcommittee ap- 
pointed by the chairman, Mr. Velde, is present at this time. 

Mr. Taa^nner. Mr. Johsel Namkimg. 



"»• 



TESTIMONY OF JOHSEL NAMKUNG, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

KENNETH A. MacDONALD 

Mr. Jackson. In the testimony you are about to give before this 
subcommittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God ? 

Mr. Namkung. I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Namkung. My name is Johsel Namkung, J-o-h-s-e-1 N-a-m- 
k-u-n-g. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ? 

Mr. Namkung. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. MacDonald. My name is Kenneth A. MacDonald of Seattle, a 
member of the Seattle Bar Association. 

Mr. Tavenner. AYlien and where were you born, Mr. Namkung? 

Mr. Namkung. I was born on April 24, 1919, in Kwang Ju, Korea. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a citizen of Korea ? 

6511 



6512 COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Namkung. I don't know, sir. I regard myself as stateless at 
the moment. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are not a naturalized American citizen, are 
you? 

Mr. Namkung. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. I understand that there is pending in court a de- 
portation proceeding involving you ? 
JNIr. Namkung. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am not going to ask you any questions which 
might have anything to do with that proceeding or evidence in regard 
to it, as the matter is now pending in court. 
Mr. Namkung. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. However, I do desire to hand you and have you 
examine a document which was introduced in evidence yesterday as 
Sunoo Exhibit No. 1. 

(Witness examines document.) 

Mr. TA\Ti:NNER. Do you see your name alluded to in the first para- 
graph ? 

Mr. Namkung. Yes, I do, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. It was testified here that the document which you 
liave in your hands, that is, the original in the Korean text, was given 
to you for delivery by you to the underground in South Korea so that 
it in turn might be delivered through underground sources to the 
Prime Minister of North Korea. 
Mr. Namkung. That is correct, Mr. Tavenner. 
Mr. Tavenner. Did that occur '^ 
Mr. Namkung. Tliat is riglit, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the document sufficiently to de- 
termine whether or not it is an English translation of the document 
which was delivered to you ? 

Mr. Namkung. Mr. Tavenner, I tliink I have seen this document 
once before, 2 or 3 years ago, and I think it is the same document, and 
I cannot determine whether it is an exact correct translation of the 
ori<rinal Korean document, but I think it relates the substantial con- 
tents of the original letter. 

Mr. Tavenner. In any event, the orginal document was delivered 
to you ? 

Mr. Namkung. Tliat is right, sir. 
Mr. Tavenner. "\"\nio delivered it to you? 

Mr. Namkung. Sir, I would like to elaborate on that a little bit. 
Reverend Lee gave me a name of a medical doctor, who was sup- 
posed to be working with South Korean Government in public health 
department. I don't remember his name anymore. However, he 
gave me — jotted that name down on a slip of paper and gave it to me, 
telling me that "If you go to South Korea, go and drop in at the pub- 
lic health department and ask for this person" — there would be doc- 
tor by name of this name. And I went there— I mean the public 
health department. I asked at the information desk whether there 
was a doctor by that name working at that time. The receptionist told 
me that he didn't know any person by that name. So I had known 
several friends — musicians, writers, poets, painters, and all those peo- 
ple of that category who were known to be leftwing— kftwing per- 
sons — and I came across a person by the name of Kim Kong Sok and 
I asked him in a roundabout way whether he had any access to under- 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6513 

ground personnel so that I could deliver a letter addressed to the 
Premier of Northern Korean Government, and he said he certainly 
had, so I handed it to him, 

Mr. Tavenner, And that was the manner in which you disposed of 
the document ? 

Mr. Namkung. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know, of your own personal knowledge, 
whether or not the document was delivered to the Prime Minister of 
North Korea ? 

Mr. Namkung. No, sir. I was supposed to get the reply of this 
letter through the same channel, and during my stay in South Korea 
for 4 months, I have seen several times this person Kim Kong Sok 
and inquired of him of the reply and he repeatedly told me that he 
has transmitted the letter but has never received any reply. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think I am justified in stating to 
the committee that the original text of this document was procured 
through North Korean sources. 

I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Thank you for your testimony. 

If there is nothing further, the witness will be excused from fur- 
ther attendance under the subpena. 

nVitness was excused.) 

(At this point, further testimony of Barbara Hartle was heard 
which is printed in pt. 3 of this series.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr Tavenner. Mr. Ralph George Davis. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you stand and be sworn, sir? 

In the testimony your are about to give before this subcommittee, 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Davis. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please ? 

TESTIMONY OP RALPH GEORGE DAVIS 

Mr. Davis. Ralph Davis. 

Mr. Tavener. Mr. Davis, I believe, in response to the invitation 
which the chairman announced at this hearing, as he announces at 
all hearings, namely, that any person whose name has been men- 
tioned adversely in the course of the testimony is invited to appear 
here and make a denial of those matters or admit them or make an 
explanation of them, you are appearing here ? 

Mr. Davis. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe you have gotten in touch with the commit- 
tee and advised that your name had been mentioned and that you 
had been identified by Mrs. Barbara Hartle. 

Mr. Davis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. As having been a member of the Communist Party. 
And you desired to appear here, is that correct ? 

Mr. Davis. Yes, that is right. 



6514 COALXIUXIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Very well. Will you just state to the chairman 
■what you have to say on the subject ? 

Mr. Davis. Well, I joined the Communist Party in 1943 and broke 
with them in 1948, but although I want to make it clear that I was 
contacted a little until 1950, when I was working with a contractor, 
and he contacted me on the pressure of working with him. 

Mr. Tavenner. AVliat was the nature of that contact ? 

Mr. Davis. Well, it was at work, and during the day, the course 
of the work, he was talking about one meeting that I went to way out 
in Berrian Heights somewhere — I don't know exactly where it was — 
and he picked me up from work and took me out to this meeting; 
and from there on I had no more contacts with the party — which I 
told him that I didn't want to go to any other meeting at all. 

Mr. Tavenner. This was your employer who took you to the Com- 
munist Party meeting ? 

Mr. Davis^ Yes. 

Mr. Tavennerj And that was the last one that you have attended ? 

Mr. Da\t:s. That is right. And he told me, he said, "That is be- 
tween you and your God.'' So I had no more connections with them. 
And I have prayed over the thing and I never did mean to do any- 
thing subversive to this country at all. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do I understand that your employer was a mem- 
ber of this group of th» Communist Partj^ ? 

Mr. Davis. That is right. Yes. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. I think you should give the committee his name. 

Mr. Davis. His name is Ed Friel. 

Mr. Tavenner. He also has been identified by Mrs. Hartle as hav- 
ing been a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Davis. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. What year was this ? 

Mr. Davis. That I was in ? 

Mr. TA^^ENNER. What year was this that he took you to this last 
meeting ? 

Mr. Da\t:s That was in 1950, to the best of my knowledge. 

Mr. Taat:nner. Other than that, you have had no connection with 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Davis. No, sir ; I have not. No. 

Mr. Tavenner. You have not participated in any other Commu- 
nist projects? 

Mr. Daat[s. No, not anywhere whatsoever. 

Mr. Tavenner. And you have no present knowledge of Commu- 
nist Party activities? 

Mr. Davis. No, I haven't, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. What was the nature of your work or the business of 
your employer ? 

Mr. Davis. Painter. Painting contractor. 

Mr. Doyle. How many men, in addition to yourself, did he 
employ ? 

Mr. Davis. I would say about 4 or 5. 

Mr. Doyle. To your personal knowledge, did he take any of the 
other employees of his to the Communist Party meeting? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6515 

Mr. Davis. No, he didn't, because prior to that I was recruited in 
the party through him, and another fellow worker who was men- 
tioned here at the hearing as Ray Campbell. 

Mr. DoTixE. Then when Mrs. Hartle identified you in her testi- 
mony, it is another case — as in all cases we have found so far her 
testimony to be correct ? 

Mr. Davis. Quite correct. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much. We want to compliment you 
on coming forward and making this helpful statement. 

(Witness was excused.) 

(At this point Mr. Jackson left the hearing room.) 

Mr. Doyle. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Victor Case, will you come forward, please? 

Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand. 

In the testimony you are about to give before this subcommittee, 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Case. I do. 

Mr. Doyle. Be seated then, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF VICTOR CASE 

Mr. Case. Victor Case. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you appearing here pursuant to a subpena 
served on you, or is this a voluntary appearance ? 

Mr. Case. I am here voluntarily. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear the invitation of the chairman of this 
committee, extended to every citizen whose name had been adversely 
referred to during the course of these hearings, as being entitled to 
appear ? 

Mr. Case. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Tavenner. And is that the reason you are appearing? 

Mrs. Case. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe Mrs. Barbara Hartle identified you as 
having been a member of the Communist Party, is that correct ? 

Mr. Case. She did. 

Mr. Tavenner. Please proceed with whatever you desire to say to 
the committee on the subject. 

Mr. Case. I came here iii order to make it perfectly clear that my 
association with the party was a brief one and a long time ago, during 
the academic year of 1946 and 1947. Since then I have departed ideo- 
logically and in every other way from the Communist Party, and when 
this testimony was given by Mrs. Hartle I appeared to cooperate with 
the committee and explain myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you determined to oppose communism in the 
future to the best of your ability ? 

Mr. Case. Yes; I have. My work is of a completely nonpolitical 
sort and my interest in politics has always been of a sort of bookish 
kind, anyway. I have never been active in any practicing politics, 
but to the same extent and in the same way that I used to defend the 
Communist point of view I now attempt to expose its fallacies. 

Mr, Tavenner. Well, there is no more effective way to combat it 
than that. 



6516 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

]\fr. Case. I believe so. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. What was the period of your membership ? 

IVfr. Case. I believe it was a period not exceeding 1 year, and it was 
during that school year of 1946 and 1947. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was that a group of the Communist Party at some 
educational institution ? 

Mr. Case. At the University of Washington. 

Mr. Ta-stenner. Having made this voluntary appearance here and 
frankly told the committee the facts, I assume that you are willing 
to talk to investigators at some future time regarding any matter they 
may desire to inquire about of you? 

Mr. Case. Yes ; I am. 

Mr. TA^^ENNER. I have no further questions at this time. 

Mr. Doyle. I desire to compliment you, Mr. Case, on behalf of the 
committee, upon coming forward as you have. 

What is your age, Mr. Case ? 

Mr. Case. Thirty-three. 

INIr. DoTLE. Are you a man of family ? 

Mr. Case. Yes. 

(At this point Mr. Jackson returned to the hearing room.) 

IVIr. D0YI.E. Good luck to you and best wishes. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Case, I might add my congratulations to what 
Mr. Doyle has said. I believe I conversed with you first when you came 
in voluntarily to the hearing. I believe that you have made a very 
wise decision and a decision which many others might well make. 

With that you are excused from further attendance at this time. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. At this time the committee will stand in recess until 
10 : 45. 

(Whereupon, at 10 : 30 a. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene 
at 10 :45 a.m.) 

(Whereupon, at 10:45 a. m., the hearing was reconvened.) 

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order. 

Let the record show that a quorum of the subcommittee is present. 

You may call your next witness, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Elmer Strom. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, 
please? 

In the testimony you are about to give before this subcommittee, 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Strom. I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are Mr. Elmer Strom ? 

TESTIMONY OF ELMER STROM, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

WAYNE BOOTH 

Mr. Strom. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name, please ? 

!Mr. Strom. S-t-r-o-m. 

IVIr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ? 

Mr. Strom. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record? 

Mr. Booth. I am Wayne Booth, vice president of the Seattle Bar 



COJVUMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6517 

Association. I am appearing here under appointment to represent 
Mr. Strom, appointment being made by Michael Copass, president of 
the Seattle Bar Association. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, INIr. Strom ? 

Mr. Strom. I was born in Carnation, Wash., the last of 1905. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. Strom. I work for the City of Seattle Fire Department. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in the city of Seattle ? 

Mr. Strom. About 34 years. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. And you say you now work for the City of Seattle 
Fire Department? 

Mr. Strom. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is the nature of your employment ? 

Mr. Strom. I am captain of a lire company. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you worked for the city of Seattle ? 

Mr. Strom. Twenty-five years. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you held the rank of captain in the 
Fire Department of the City of Seattle ? 

Mr. Strom. Ninej^ears. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of a local or national union 
which is organized within the fire department ? 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 

Mr. Strom. I am, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is the designation of the union ? 

Mr. Strom. International Association of Firefighters of Seattle, 
Local 27. 

Mr. Tavenner. What area does that local cover ? 

Mr. Strom. The city of Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you now hold any position in the national or- 
ganization of that union ? 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 

Mr. Strom. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you hold any position in the local union ? 

Mr. Strom. Yes, sir. I am vice president. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been vice president? 

Mr. Strom. Two years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is there any United States Government property, 
such as a base of any character under the Army or the Navy or any 
other Government branch, which comes within the area in which 
local 27 operates ? 

Mr. Strom. Well, anything that would be within Seattle would be 
in that same district that the local operates in. 

Mr. Tavenner. As a captain of the fire department and as an official, 
vice president, I believe you said, of your local, you have access to 
those properties, of course, in the performance of your duties, do you 
not? 

Mr. Strom. Well, in performance of the duties — I just don't know 
what to say. I presume that would be true, yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Strom, do you know of Communist Party ac- 
tivities within local 27 ? 

Mr. Strom. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you at the present time a member of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mr. Strom. No, sir. 



6518 COMJVIUNIST ACTR'ITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you required in 1951, under the provisions 
of the Subversive Act of the State Legislature of Washington to sign 
a statement virtually in the nature of a non-Communist statement ? 

Mr. Strom. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you sign it ? 

Mr. Strom. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at 
that time ? 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 

Mr. Strom. Sir, I am advised by counsel that answers to prelimi- 
nary questions may lead to matters which would tend to incriminate 
me and under the Constitution I must, with all due respect to the func- 
tions of this committee, decline to answer this question under my im- 
munity under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am not certain that I understand you correctly. 
You state that you are not a member of the Communist Party now. 
Wliat is the difference in denying Communist Party membership now 
and denying it on June 20, 1951 ? 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 

Mr. Tavenner. If you, in fact, were not a member of the Communist 
Party at that time ? 

Mr. Strom. That question calls for a legal interpretation of just 
how far back the questioning might go. 

]Mr. Tavenner. How far back it might go ? Well, the question is : 
What was the situation on June 20, 1951 ? 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 

Mr. Strom. I must decline to answer this question on the grounds 
and for the reasons already stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party yes- 
terday ? 

Mr. Strom. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. You will not answer as to yesterday ? 

Mr. Strom. I will not answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is today? Saturday? 

Mr. Strom. Correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. You will not answer as to whether or not you were a 
member of the Communist Party on Friday then ? 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 

Mr. Strom. I must decline to answer this on these grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. But on Saturday you are not a member of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mr. Strom. Same answer holds true. 

Mr. Jackson. Were you a member of the Communist Party when 
you entered this hearing room ? 

Mr. Strom. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party when 
you got up this morning ? 

(At tills point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 

Mr. Strom. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party when 
yon went to bed last night ? 

Mr. Strom. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of the 
previous statement. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6519 

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a document, the heading of which is 
"City of Seattle, State of Washington," statement of a fire department 
captain, bearing date of June 20, 1951. Will you examine it, please, 
and state whether or not the signature of the statement is your 
signature ? 

(Witness examines document.) 

Mr. Strom. Wliat is the question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the signature to the document 
and state whether or not is your signature ? 

Mr. Strom. It is. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall having signed the statement ? 

Mr. Strom. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have it, please, sir ? 

I desire to introduce the document in evidence and ask that it be 
marked "Strom Exhibit No. 1." 

Mr. Jackson. It will be admitted in the record. 

Mr. TA^'XNNER. This is a statement given by you pursuant to the 
provisions of the Subversive Activities Act of 1951 of the State of 
Washington, is it not ? 

( At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth. ) 

Mr. Strom. To my knowledge, yes. 

Mr. Ta^'i^nner. Among the statements contained therein is this 
provision : 

I hereby certify that I have read the provisions of section 14, chapter 254, Laws 
of 1951 of the State of Washington quoted above, that I understand and I am 
familiar with the contents thereof and that I am not a subversive person as 
therein defined. 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 
Mr. Tavenner. And the act which is quoted in this statement pro- 
vides that it is applicable to a person who is a member of a subversive 
organization. 

Were you a member of a subversive organization when you signed 
this document on June 20, 1951 ? 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 
Mr. Strom. I would invoke the fifth amendment on that question. 
(At this point Mr. Booth conferred with Mr. Strom.) 
Mr. Strom. But if you will ask me as to whether it was true at that 
time, I will answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have asked you whether or not you were a member 
of the Communist Party on June 20, 1951, and I will be very glad to 
ask it again. Were you ? 

(At this point Mr. Booth conferred with Mr. Strom.) 
Mr. Strom. I am advised that the way the question is framed if I 
would answer that I would waive my immunity, on advice of counsel, 
although there is a wide field in which I feel free to testify. 

Mr, Tavenner. Well, can you think of any way you would like 
for me to ask you the same question in a manner in which you could 
answer whether or not you were a member of the Communist Party 
on June 20, 1951 ? If you can, I will be very glad to accommodate 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 
Mr. Strom. I decline to answer that question on the grounds and 
for the reason as previously stated. 



6520 COIVCMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Can you think of any way in which I can ask that 
question so that you can answer? I have been trying to ask these 
questions in a way witnesses will answer them and if you have the 
answer to that I would be glad to have it. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle. 

]Mr. Doyle. IVIay I suggest that perhaps the committee might even 
be willing to let the witness volunteer and tell us what the fact is as 
to whether or not he was a member of the Communist Party on June 
20, 1951? 

A^^lat is your voluntary statement ? 

And may I suggest to counsel that that is not in response to any 
question. That is just inviting you to volunteer what the truth is. 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 

INIr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I w411 withdraw my question and 
ask the witness just to explain his Communist Party activities, if he 
had any. 

Mr. Doyle. Excuse me for interfering with the question of counsel, 
but as long as the witness objects to answering the question, I submit 
that we are inviting him to tell the truth on that question or to tell 
the truth without it being in answer to any questio]!. 

]\Ir. Jackson. Preliminary to that, may the Chair make a brief state- 
ment? 

I assume that the witness. Captain Strom, has taken into considera- 
tion the likely consequences of the position that he is taking here loday. 
There may well be in the balance a very long and faithful service to 
the city of Seattle. 

As Chairman Velde said the other day, it is not the desire nor the 
■wish nor the policy of this committee to attempt to entrap anyone 
into making any statement which might in any way incriminate them. 
We are attempting to the best of our ability to determine the facts 
respecting Communist Party activity in this area ; and, as the chair- 
man said the other day — and I want to stress it very much at the 
present time, because I think it is very important to you, sir — that 
no witness who has ever appeared before this committee, to the best 
of my knowledge, and who has told the truth openly, frankly, and 
completely, has ever been prosecuted by this committee. It does us 
absolutely no good to send anyone to jail ; we learn nothing, the Amer- 
ican people learn nothing. Our primary, fundamental and only in- 
terest is in finding out the facts as they exist in any given locality. 

And, as I say, I am sure that you have weighed all the factors in 
the case, that you have taken into consideration the matter of your own 
career ; but, before the final die is cast, and before you have irrevocably 
taken a step which may, in the final analysis, be a disastrous one, I 
think that 5' ou should realize the fact that we are not here to prosecute ; 
we are here to obtain information. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. You see, in the position of a fire captain in the fire 
department in a city of any size, especially a city the size of Seattle, it 
is an important matter — if the Communist Party has any direction and 
control of that individual, if that individual is subject to the discipline 
of the Communist Party. 



COMJMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6521 

Now we want to know whether or not you were subject to the dis- 
cipline of the Communist Party on June 20, 1951, when you gave this 
statement ? 

(At this point Mr. Booth conferred with Mr, Strom.) 

Mr. Stkom. If I could preserve my immunity as of that date and 
not have to answer — I could answer it as of that date, but if I answer — • 
but if I answered as of then, as of this particular date, what is to 
prevent you or, as I fully expect you will ask, to come to some other 
date? 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Yes, I will, until I get the facts. 

Mr. Stkom. Then I must decline on the grounds as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. But you answered as of today. 

Mr. Strom. I did. 

Mr. Tavenner. But you are unwilling to answer as to June 20, 1951 ? 

Mr. Strom. For the same reason. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show at this 
point that in the Guide to Subversive Organizations and Publications, 
published by authority of this committee, it shows at page 41 thereof, 
under "Communist Party, USA, 1930 to 1944, 1945 to date," cited as 
subversive organization which seeks to alter form of government of 
the United States by unconstitutional means — Attorney General Tom 
Clark, letter to Loyalty Eeview Board released December 4, 1947 and 
September 1, 1948. 

The Communist Party of tlie United States of America from the time of its in- 
ception in 1919 to the present time is an oranization that believes in, advises, 
advocates, and teaches the overthrow by force and violence of the Government 
of the United States. — 

Attorney General Francis Biddle — Opinion on the case of Harry 
Bridges, May 28, 1942— 

The Communist Party is actually functioning as a border patrol on American 
shores for a foreign government, the Soviet Union. — 

Special Committee on Un-American Activities Report, January 3, 
1940, page 4 — 

An organization operating under centralized discipline, subordinated to com- 
mune with Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Its basic aim, whether open 
or concealed, is the abolition of our present economic system and democratic 
form of government and of the establishment of a Soviet dictatorship in its 
place — an organization resorting to deception, evasion, illegal methods, violence, 
civil war, methods implicit in its revolutionary purpose. 

Congressional Committee on Un-American Activities. Report No. 
209, April 1, 1947, page 1 of Report No. 1920, May 11, 1948— 

Communist Party is a small compact group of professional revolutionists. The 
overall strategy of the Communist Party is designed to bring about the destruc- 
tion of all democratic governments. 

I felt it appropriate to read that at this point, Mr. Chairman, in 
view of the fact that this gentleman signed this statement on June 20, 
1951, about 6 or 7 years after these facts became a matter of public 
knowledge. 

Mr. Jackson. Thank you, Mr. Doyle. 

Continue, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. I do not know whether the witness has declined to 
answer the question or not. 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 

48069— 54— pt. 8 2 



6522 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Strom. What is the question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. As I remember it, tlie question that I asked, which 
you have not answered, was whether or not on June 20, 1951, you were 
subject to the discipline of the Communist Party ? 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred w^ith Mr. Booth.) 

Mr. Strom. I must decline on the grounds as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. During the course of her testimony, Mrs. Barbara 
Hartle identified you as a person knowui to her to have been a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party. Was she truthful and correct in that 
identification of you ? 

Mr. Strom. I must decline to answer on the grounds and for the 
reasons previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are acquainted with Barbara Hartle; are you 
not? 

Mr. Strom. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred with Mr. Booth.) 

Mr. Strom. I must answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. Captain, did you resign from the Communist Party 
prior to today ? 

(At this point Mr. Strom conferred wdth Mr. Booth.) 

Mr. Doyle. You said you are not a member of the Communist Party 
today. 

Mr. Stroini. I nnist decline to answer on the same grounds for the 
same reason. 

Mr. Doyle. You understand, I think, as a matter of law, that you 
should rely on your distinguished counsel, but I am sure that the law 
is not that you must decline; there is no "must" about it. I want to 
make that clear. It is a matter of your own volition and choice. 

If I am not correct there, counsel, would you please make it clear 
to him that you think I am in error when I make that statement? 

(At this point Mr. Booth conferred with Mr. Strom.) 

Mr. Doyle. It is not a matter of compulsion. 

Mr. Strom. I recognize it is my own decision, but the time factor 
is an element here, too. 

Mr. Doyle. Now while I recognize that there is no inference, as I 
understand tlie law, that you are guilty of any crime by reason of the 
fact that you do plead the fifth amendent, I say to you that I think 
the record shows that it is possible that you were a member of the Com- 
munist Party at the time you signed this declaration on June 20, 1951, 
althougli I am not drawing any inference, you understand. 

But I want to say this to you, sir : I just cannot conceive of a man 
who is captain of a fire department of one of our major cities going so 
far underground and contrary to the American form of government 
as to join the Communist Party. 

Now why don't you do what Mr. Dennett did — the man who sat 
before us here with his knitting? We are only going to be here until 
late today. Why don't you reconsider your position as an American 
citizen and a distinguislied officer of the fire department of this city? 

If you were a member of the Communist Party, even though the 
tenets of the Communist Party are revolutionary, I am going to as- 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6523 

sume for the purpose of this invitation that you were never a hard- 
core Communist, that you were never a revolutionist in intent. I 
cannot conceive of you as bein^ a revolutionist in intent, although 
you were certainly a member of that outfit. 

Now if you were not a revolutionist in intent, before you are an hour 
older or 2 hours older, why don't you reconsider your position and 
come clean and help your United States Goverinnent and your city to 
know the extent to which the Communist Party infiltrated the Fire 
Department of the City of Seattle? Why don't you do that? Isn't 
that your patriotic duty as an American citizen? Why don't you 
take a couple of hours recess, if you need it, and come clean and help 
your city that has supported you all these years ? You have educated 
your family through tax money. Why don't you help your city to 
understand the extent to which it has been endangered ? 

As our counsel has said, it is a terrible thing for it to be a fact, if it 
is, that even one captain of the fire department is under the domination 
of the Communist Party in Seattle. Think of the possibilities. You, 
eir, I take it, control the whole policy of a branch fire department sta- 
tion, if not the central station itself, under the chief. 

And if you were a member of the Communist Party, you took the line 
of the Communist Party or you didn't stay in — we know that. 

Now I am giving you an invitation to take an hour or two recess and 
tliink it over. I won't rest comfortably nor will any other member 
of this committee or resident of Seattle rest comfortable until we 
know whether or not you are still a member of the Communist Party — 
because if you are not today and you were yesterday, how can we be- 
lieve your testimony ? I don't understand how you expect us to be- 
lieve it under the circumstances. 

I appreciate your listening to me. I realize that you can't talk back, 
but think it over. I cannot help but think that I am addressing a pos- 
sible Communist. If you are not, why don't you disabuse my mind of 
that fact ? 

Thank you very much for letting me talk to you. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have anything further, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I have nothing further, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. I want to concur fully in what has been said by Mr. 
Doyle. I shall not labor the matter any further except to say that from 
time to time the members of this committee have a very real feeling of 
regret when an individual in your position takes his career, weighs 
it in the scale of his mind, and decides that he is going to decline to 
assist the committee. 

I, too, hope that you will give this matter further consideration, 
bearing in mind what Mr. Velde said the other day about full, frank, 
and open discussion and the attitude of this committee relative to pros- 
ecution. 

If there is nothing further, the witness is excused from further at- 
tendance under the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Will you call your next witness, please ? 

Mr. Tam2nner. Hildur Josephine Hughes, will you come forward, 
please ? 

Mr. Jackson. In the testimony that you are about to give before 
this subcommittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 



6524 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mrs. Hughes, I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

TESTIMONY OF HILDUR JOSEPHINE HUGHES, ACCOMPANIED BY 

COUNSEL, JOHN CAUGHLAN • 

Mrs. Hughes. First of all, I want to say that on the first day of the 
hearings Mr. Doyle made this statement : That this committee was not 
like the Dies committee because there was a book of rules and in this 
book of rules a witness could have counsel. 

Now it so happens that my right of counsel has been jeopardized,, 
because my counsel has been stigmatized by this committee, so I do not 
feel that I have full counsel. 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair will say that the nature of the advice that 
you will receive from your counsel is unquestionably the same advice 
that you would have received had he not been subpenaed. 

Please be seated. 

Mr. Caughlan. May I comment on that, Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. Jackson. No. I am sorry. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please ? 

Mrs. Hughes. Before I answer that question, I just want to make 
the observation that it was Mr. Harold Velde of this 

Mr. Tavenner. May I interrupt? 



Mrs. Hughes. Of this committee who issued the subpena 

Mr. Jackson. Order, please. 

The witness will remain in order and please wait for questions to 
be asked, and please be responsive to them. 

Mr. Taa'enner. I would suggest that the witness be directed to 
answer the question. 

Mr. Jackson. What is the pending question ? 

]\Ir. Tavenner. To state her name. 

Mrs. Hughes. I am going to answer it. 

Mr. Tavenner. Then will you answer it first ? 

Mrs. Hughes. Hildur Josephine Hughes, and I wanted to observe 
that it was Mr. Harold Velde who issued the subpena to former 
President Harry S. Truman. 

Mr. Taatenner. I thought that. 

INIr. Jackson. That, of course, is precisely what we expected to hear. 
The subpena issued to former President Truman has nothing to do 
with the !^ubpena issued to 3^ou. If you will confine yourself as closely 
as possible to answering the questions that are asked, we could expedite 
this 

Mr. Tavenner. You are accompanied by counsel, are j'ou not? 

Mrs. Hughes. Mr. John Caughlan is my counsel. 

Mr. TA^^NNER. Will counsel please identify himself for the record? 

Mr. Caughlan. Before I do so, the stenographer has requested that 
Mrs. Hughes spell her name, and I think it would be a good idea for 
her to do so. 

Mrs. Hughes. H-i-1-d-u-r Josephine H-u-g-h-e-s. 

Mr. Caughlan. I am John Cauglilan of the Seattle Bar. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside? Is it Miss or Mrs. Hughes? 

Mrs. Hughes. Mrs. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you reside, Mrs. Hughes ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6525 

Mrs. Hughes. Well — I reside in Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Seattle? 

Mrs. Hughes. I want to first of all state that I have been disturbed 
by the general tenor 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that the answer is not 
responsive to the question ? 

Mr. Jackson. It is quite obvious that it is not responsive. 

Will you please answer the question? Then if any explanation 
is needed as to why you are so answering, you will get an opportunity 
^to give it. 

(At this point Mr. Caughlan conferred with Mrs- Hughes.) 

Mrs. Hughes. What was the question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Read the question. 

(Question was read.) 

(At this point Mr. Caughlan again conferred with Mrs. Hughes.) 

Mrs. Hughes. Well, it is approximately 30 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state your present occupation ? 

Mrs. Hughes. Well, on that one I am going to go back to the Con- 
rstitution, article IX — 

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed 
to deny or disparage others retained by the people, 

and if one is to be silent, to be a witness before this committee, it 
jeopardizes your position, so I will also invoke the preamble to the 
Constitution, which says, 

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, 
establish justice, insure domestic tranquility 

Mr. Jackson. The witness will suspend. The preamble to the Con- 
stitution is not a legal reason for declining to answer the question. 

Mrs. Hughes. Then 

Mr. Jackson. Will the witness be good enough to proceed to the 
legal reasons she intends to advance ? 

(At this point Mr. Caughlan conferred with Mrs. Hughes.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I be permitted to withdraw 
the question? 

Mr. Jackson. The question will be withdrawn. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mrs. Hughes. I wish to invoke article IX. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you refuse to answer the question? 

Mrs. Hughes. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds of 
the first amendment, and I think that article is known to most 
people — 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or pro- 
hibiting the free exercise thereof ; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the 
press ; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Gov- 
<ernment for a redress of grievances. 

And again article IX, the right to be silent. And I just want to com- 
ment on that : that our whole idea of secret balloting is based on the 
right to be silent, because if you go into a booth and vote and every- 
body knows how you have voted, it might happen that if you voted 
for a Democrat you might be fired by a Republican boss. The right 
ito be silent is a basic fundamental right. 



6526 COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

And then I invoke the fifth amendment, under the section regarding 
due process of law and that I do not have to be a witness concerning 
mj'self. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Mr. Chairman, I have endeavored to give this wit- 
ness the privilege, as well as the right, to answer or to comment upon 
testimony which was introduced at this hearing which has affected 
her, but in light of her apparent attitude about it I do not desire 
to ask any further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be 
excused from further attendance under the subpena ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call the next witness, Mr. Tavenner. 

Mr. Tavenner. Stanley O. Iverson. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand, please ? 

Mr. IvERSON. Mr. Jackson, I have a question about the rules of pro- 
cedure of this committee. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn ? Then 
you can be qualified. 

Mr. IvERsoN. I am asking a question, not making a statement. 

Mr. Jackson. "Wliat is the question ? 

Mr. IvERSON. The question involves the rules of procedure of this 
committee. 

On Monday morning, when I came down to find out what was being 
said against me, I was excluded from this chamber, although you had 
evidently given out passes to a number of supporters of yours, to a 
number of people who supported you. I understand that they were 
screened by Mr. Canwell. 

Now I want to know why I wasn't permitted to hear what was 
being said about me on that day ? 

Mr. Jackson. You will be informed by counsel of the nature of the 
testimony. Meanwhile, you are present in the hearing room in answer 
to a subpena. It is not the intention of the Chair to niake any ex- 
planation whatsoever to you, sir, as to the conduct of this committee. 

Will you raise your right hand and be sworn now ? 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcommittee, 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. I\*ERS0N. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF STANLEY 0. IVERSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

JOHN CAUGHLAN 

Mr. Iverson. I shall answer that question as I shall answer each 
and every question of this committee — this McCarthyite committee — 
under protest. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, your protest is noted. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now will you proceed to answer the question? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6527 

Mr. IvERSON. My name is Stanley O. Iverson, I-v-e-r-s-o-n. 

Mr. Tavenner. I note that you are accompanied by the same coun- 
sel who accompanied the preceding witness. 

Mr. Iverson, when and where were you born ? 

Mr. Iverson. I thought you asked me a question. 

Mr. Tavenner. No, I made a statement. 

Mr. Iverson. You made a statement ; you don't care to ask questions 
now? 

Mr. Tavenner. The question is when and where were you born ? 

Mr. Iverson. I was born in Missoula, Mont., 1927. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. Iverson. I protest that question because, as you very well 
know, there have been innumerable instances of organized hoodlum- 
ism in this city, directed against persons who appeared before this 
committee. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, do you live in the city of Seattle ? 

Mr. Iverson. I live in the city of Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Seattle ? 

Mr. Iverson. Since, roughly, about the middle part of 1951. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where did you live prior to that? 

Mr. Iverson. I lived in Spokane, Wash. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long were you a resident of Spokane ? 

Mr. I\^RS0N. It seems to me that I came to Spokane in either the 
early part of 1947 or the latter part of 1946. I am not quite clear as 
to the exact date. 

Mr. Tavenner. While you were living in Spokane, were you a 
member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Iverson. Now you very well know that that question is a ques- 
tion which involves political belief, that that is a question which in- 
volves conscience, that it involves questions of mind, questions of 
thought, questions of affiliation — that it is a question which is akin to 
those questions which were asked in England and in other parts of 
Europe in religious matters, in matters of politics — that this is a ques- 
tion which the star chamber and the inquisition asked — in effect, "Are 
you a mmeber of a nonconformist group or are you a heretic?" — and 
I am going to decline to answer that question on the basis of the ninth 
article of the Bill of Rights, which says that the rights which are 
enumerated are not limited to just those which are enumerated and 
that the enumeration of those rights is not intended to disparage other 
rights held by the people. 

I am going to refuse to answer that question on the basis of the tenth 
article of the Bill of Rights, the article which provides that certain 
powers are retained by the States and by the people, and I am going 
to refuse to answer that question on the basis of the first article of the 
Bill of Rights, that article which provides that there shall be freedom 
of speech, the freedom to assemble, the freedom to print — freedom of 
the press, in other words — freedom of religion ; and I infer from the 
fact that it guarantees freedom of speech that it also guarantees the 
inferred corollary — the right to freedom of silence. 

This committee, in asking that question, is very definitely striking 
at the right to speak, for it is saying, in effect, that there will be penal- 
ties. As I know, and as many other people know, men have already 
been fired from their jobs simply on the basis of receiving a sub- 
pena 



6528 COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. IvERSON. Before they ever appeared. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness will suspend for a moment. 

Mr, Doyle. I think we have given you plenty of freedom of speech 
to pronounce your prepared tirade. 

I call for order, INIr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. 

Mr. IvERSON. Will you permit me to develop my legal reasons ? 

]Mr. Doyle. Give them. 

Mr. IvERSON. I am developing them. 

Mr. Doyle. You don't know how to build then. 

Give your legal reasons and stop your tirade. 

Mr. Jackson. It would be very much appreciated by the Chair if 
the witness would give his legal reasons. It isn't necessary to read 
all of the Bill of Rights in order to secure the protection of that Bill 
of Rights. 

Mr. IvERSON. Mr. Jackson, I am going to have just as much con- 
sideration for this committee as this committee has consideration for 
me. 

Mv. Jackson. This committee will show you every courtesy which 
you show this committee. It has been extremely patient with you and 
with other unfriendly witnesses. However, let me make it clear that 
unless you proceed to invoke the constitutional rights within the next 
several minutes, the Chair intends to dismiss you from further at- 
tendance on the committee. 

Mr. IvERSON. Now, Mr. Jackson, I am going to develop my legal 
reasons in detail because, as you very well know, whether this com- 
mittee is interested in those reasons or not, if this becomes a matter 
that goes into the courts of this land, the proper expression of those 
legal reasons will be extremely important. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. 

Mr. IvERSON. I do not intend to be gagged by you, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you please move to the reasons as quickly as 
possible ? 

Mr. IvERSON. Now Mr. Doyle, the person from California, has given 
a very interesting account of tlie fifth amendment. Mr. Doyle has said 
that the use of the fiftli amendment does not involve any connotation 
at all, that it does not mean that a person is guilty, and in this he seems 
to contradict some of his own statements and the statements or infer- 
ences or innuendos of other members of your committee. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman 

Mr. Jackson. Unless the witness proceeds immediately to give the 
constitutional grounds upon which he is taking his stand, it is the 
intention of the Chair to have him removed from tlie hearing room. 
Mr. IvERsoN. I am endeavoring, over the harassment of this com- 
mittee, to state those grounds. 

Mr. Jackson. The committee is also sometimes harassed but we do 
not intend to be harassed any longer. Proceed to the statement of your 
constitutional reasons without any further speeches. 

Mr. IvERSON. Now I invoke those parts of the fifth article of the Bill 
of Rights which liistorically have been used and were originated for 
tlie purpose of defending people from this type of McCarthyite inqui- 
sition, although they didn't call it "McCarthyite" when it was origi- 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6529 

nated — and I am going to refer to the right not to bear witness against 
oneself. 

Mr. Jackson. Proceed, Mr. Counsel, with your questions. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, it is quite obvious that it would be a 
waste of time to inquire further. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be 
excused from further attendance under the subpena ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused, and he may sign his voucher 
for witness fees. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Doyle. For the information of the record and those who may be 
interested, I am often asked what the witness fee is that these wit- 
nesses get. They get $6 a day and mileage. 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ludington. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand, please ? 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcom- 
mittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Ludington. I do. 

]VIr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF MELVIN LUDINGTON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

JOHN CAUGHLAN 

Mr. Ludington. My name is Melvin Ludington. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by the same 
counsel that appeared for the last two witnesses. 

Mr. Ludington, during the course of the testimony here, you have 
been identified by Mrs. Barbara Hartle as having been a member of 
the Communist Party. Do you want to deny it, affirm it, or explain it ? 

Mr. Ludington. Well, I want to make this point : that the Consti- 
tution, as amended, speaks not only of freedom of speech, but it also 
speaks of trial by 

Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment. I am giving you your choice. 
You need not say a word if you do not desire to do so. I am saying 
to you : Do you want to deny it ? Do you want to admit it ? Do you 
want to explain it? 

Mr. Ludington. I want to explain to my friends and neighbors and 
the people that I, as an American citizen, born and raised in America, 
have served my country well; that I protest being dragged before 
this committee and tried by accusation and not by trial and jury. 

Mr. Jackson. Let the record shovv- that no accusation has been en- 
tered against the witness by the committee. He has merely been 
asked to explain certain information which has come into the posses- 
sion of the committee. 

Do you decline to answer ? 

Before you proceed any further, will you please answer the question 
that is pending ? 

]Mr. Ludington. Counsel advises me that he does not think there 
is a question pending at this time. 



6530 COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, the Chair will direct one. 

Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. LuDiNGTON. Being that, as reasons stated before, that to ex- 
plain to my friends and neighbors why this question is asked, in its 
entirety it is asked to put me on trial here, which under the sixth 
amendment of the Constitution guarantees to me the right to be tried 
by jury; and further entering into the realm of my own personal busi- 
ness ; and, further than that, under the fifth amendment to the Con- 
stitution, it gives me the right not to testifj^ about myself. 

I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Jackson, Do you have any further questions, Mr. Counsel? 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. No questions. 

iSIr. Jackson. The witness is excused from further attendance un- 
der the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr". Shifferly. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand, please ? 

Mr. Shifferly. Before raising my hand, I want to protest on being 
called up here before this type of committee, which has no authority 
to question me. 

And I want to further protest on behalf of my counsel of the at- 
tempts to deny me of counsel which were made by this committee, and 
as a result of that we both feel intimidated. 

Mv. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand now and be sworn ? 

In the testimony that jou are about to give before this subcommittee, 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing by the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Shifferly. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated please. 

Mr. Ta\tenner. "^^liat is your name, please ? 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM CARL SHIFFERLY, ACCOMPANIED BY 

COUNSEL, JOHN CATJGHLAN 

Mr. Shifferly. One other request 

Mr. Jackson. Will the witness please be seated ? 

Mr. Shifferly. I want the cameras to stop. They can take pictures 
all they want, but stop all the time I am on the stand. 

Mr. Jackson. All right. The television cameras, in accordance 
with 

Mr. Tavenner. He didn't say television. 

Mr, SiiiFFi^.RLY. I just asked for these flash cameras — the ones that 
blind you. 

Mr. Jackson. You have no objection to television ? 

Mr, Shifferly. No, no objection to television. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. To the extent that it is consistent with 
proper coverage of the testimony of this witness, it will be appreciated 
if the press would refrain from taking these ])ictures. 

Mr. Doyle. And of course to the degree, Mr, Chairman, as you have 
often stated, consistent with the freedom of the press in America, 
which we always observe. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6531 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Shifferly. William Carl Shifferly, S-li-i-f-f-e-r-l-y. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by the same 
<iounsel that represented the previous three witnesses. 

Mr. Caughlan. May I disassociate myself from the statement jiist 
made by my client — that I am in any way intimidated by this commit- 
tee ? I am not. 

Mr. Jackson. No, it is not the intention of the committee to intimi- 
date you. 

Mr, Caughlan. That I disagree with. 

Mr. Jackson. That is your privilege. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien and where were you born ? 

Mr. Shifferly. I will consult with counsel. 

(At this point Mr. Shifferly conferred with Mr. Caughlin.) 

Mr. Shifferly. I was born in Tacoma, Wash., 1903. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. Shifferly. Winlock,'Wash., Route 1, box 332-B. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived there ? 

Mr. Shifferly. Well, sir, at the present address which I maintain 
now, it has been about 3 months, approximately. 

Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that, where did you reside ? 

Mr. Shifferly. At Toledo, Wash. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. How long did you live at Toledo ? 

Mr, Shifferly. That is kind of a split-up story, where I lived there 
for a certain length of time and was away, and was back another cer- 
tain length of time, and I would say probably a rough estimate of 3 
years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know Mrs. Barbara Hartle ? ; 

Mr. Shlfferly. I will consult with counsel. 

(At this point Mr. Shifferly conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr. Shifferly, Mr. Chairman, to answer such a question, I am sure 
would degrade me, and that I would lose my friends and associates to 
make such a statement that you want me to make, and for that reason 
I will decline to answer your question standing on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Hartle has identified you as having been a 
member of the Communist Party and in fact as a district functionary 
of the Communist Party. I would like to give you this opportunity 
to tell the committee whether or not that is true, and if it is true to ex- 
plain the circumstances as fully as you desire of your membership and 
whether or not you got out of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Shifferly. I will consult with counsel. 

(At this point Mr. Shifferly conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr. Shifferly. Brother Chairman 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. Shifferly. Or ; excuse me. 

Mr. Jackson. Order in the hearing room, please. As long as it isn't 
"Comrade Chairman." 

Mr. Shifferly. They do use that expression in the American Le- 
gion and various other organizations. 

Mr. Jackson. In a somewhat different sense. 



6532 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. SHirTERLY. I would like to have you repeat the question again,, 
as I am all mixed up as a result of this laughter and delay. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you deny Mrs. Barbara Hartle's identification 
of you as having been a functionary of the Communist Party, or do you 
want to tell this committee that she was correct in the identification; 
or, on the other hand, if you want to explain it — if you want to tell the 
committee wlien you got out of the Communist Party, if you were 
ever in it, we will be glad to hear that. 

Mr. Shifferly. In regard to your question, I will say that it goes 
into the field of my civil rights, which are guaranteed by the Consti- 
tution and the Bill of Rights, and under which committees such as this 
have no right to question me about the things that are guaranteed 
under the Constitution and the civil rights, and the members of the 
committee know that very well. And I refuse to answer that question 
standing on the grounds of the fifth amendment, which is the shield of" 
the innocent. 

Mr, Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Shifferly. You have asked the same witch-hunting question, 
and I will give you the same answer as in the last. 

]Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. In view of the fact that the witness has made a state- 
ment that is not founded on fact, I would like to have the record show 
this: 

The witness has stated that the committee knows very well that this 
committee has no right to ask these questions. I want the record to' 
show what I have called attention to before — that the Communist 
Party of the United States of America was found back in 1947 to be a 
subversive organization and that under Public Law 601, passed by the' 
79tli Congress, this committee was officially delegated and authorized' 
to investigate the extent, the character, and the objectives of 
un-American propaganda activities and subversive activities in the 
United States. We are not going into political philosophies or beliefs, 
"We are, however, authorized to go into the activities of the Communist 
Party of the United States to the extent of its infiltration into our 
American experience and life. 

Furthermore, I wish the record to show that which I think is well 
known — that contrary to what this witness has said — the highest 
courts in our land have held that Public Law 001 is constitutional; 
and, it being constitutional, this committee therefore is a constitu- 
tional committee and it is not true, as this witness has stated, that it is 
unconstitutional and that we have no right to proceed under the law. 

Mr. Jackson. Thank you, Mr. Doyle. 

Is there any reason why this witness should not be excused? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused from further attendance under 
the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Caughlan. Sir, may I inquire if I may now be excused until' 
2 o'clock this afternoon ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you represent any other witnesses ? 

Mr. Caughlan. I represent no further persons before this com- 
mittee. I desire to be excused until 2 o'clock. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, you are excused. 



'COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6533 

Mr. Caughlan. Could I inquire whether it is your intention to call 
me at 2 o'clock ? 

Mr. Jackson. We will accommodate you to the best of our ability. 

Mr. Caughlan. Thank you. I will be here at 2 o'clock, and I hope 
joii will call me at that time, if you are going to call me. 

Mr. Tavenner. You will be called. 

Mr. Caughlan. Thank you. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have anything further at this time, Mr. 
'Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, the committee will stand in recess until 
1 o'clock. 

(Whereupon, at 12 m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at 
1 o'clock, p. m.) 

afternoon session 

(Wliereupon, at 1 o'clock, p. m., the hearing was reconvened.) 

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order. 

Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Algot Starr, will you come forward, please? 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, sir? 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcom- 
mittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whols 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Starr. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 
(At this point Mr. Starr conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

TESTIMONY OF ALGOT STARR, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

C. T. HATTEN 

Mr. Starr. I will answer this question under protest, because I feel 
that this is in violation of my rights under the fifth amendment, so it 
iG under protest that I answer this question. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Very well, sir. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. My name is Algot Starr. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell it, please ? 

Mr. Starr. A-1-g-o-t S-t-a-r-r. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ? 

Mr. Starr. By very able counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. Hatten. My name is C. T. Hatten. I am an attorney in the 
State of Washington. 

Mr. Tavenner. "Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Starr? 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Starr.) 

Mr. Starr. I will answer that but I will state my objection to it — 
that I believe that this also is in violation of the fifth amendment, even 
as to testifying where I was born. 

However, I was born in Wood worth, N. Dak. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do j^ou now reside ? 

Mr. Starr. I will answer this question, but I want to state that it 
may work a hardship on people other than myself. It so happens that 



6534 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

I live in an apartment house and I only hope that by answering this 
question that these people do not get telephone calls, which there has 
been. Some reactionary imbecile might threaten to burn their house- 
down. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. 

Mr. Starr. I Avonder if this committee would withdraw that ques- 
tion due to the fact that it may work a hardship on the apartment 
owners ? 

Mr. Tavenner. In what community do you live ? 

Mr. Starr. I live in Everett. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived there ? 

( At this point Mr. Starr conferred with Mr. Hatten. ) 

Mr. Starr. Again under protest I will answer this question. I 
have lived there since 1948. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Have you lived at any other place since July 1950? 

Mr. Starr. No ; I haven't. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

(At this point Mr. Starr conferred with Mr. Hatten. ) 

Mr. Starr. This committee knows very well what my occupation 
is, because the subpena which I received was served to me on the job' 
and it was signed by the chairman of this committee, so this committee 
already has that information. 

Mr. Jackson. Aside from that, tlie record does not haA'e that infor- 
mation. Let us get it into the record. 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Starr.) 

Mr. Starr. Mr. Chairman, I will refuse to answer this question,, 
because I am well aware of the fact that there is hundreds of people- 
who have appeared before this committee — and they are doctors, law- 
yers, all walks of life — and because they have appeared before this 
committee their occupations were jeopardized, and it so happens that 
my livelihood is dependent on my occu])ation. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. Now that the gentleman has made a speech, of course- 
he is making a statement which is not true to fact, and I move that 
the witness be instructed to answer. 

Mr, Jackson. Yes, as part of the proper identification of the wit- 
ness, he is instructed to answer the question as to his occupation. 

Mr. Starr. I will refuse to answer this question under the fifth 
amendment of the Bill of Rights, which guarantees me the right that 
I need not testify about myself. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavennf;r. Have you at any time beeii a member of the Inter- 
national Woodworkers of America ? 

Mr. Starr. I will refuse to answer that question under the follow- 
ing grounds : First, that under the first amendment of the Constitu- 
tion, this amendment guarantees the right to the people of the free- 
dom of assembly and the freedom of speech, and to substantiate this I 
now quote the first amendment : 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or pro- 
hibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the 
press ; or the right of the people to peaceably assemble and petition for redress 
of grievances. 

And to enlarge on this 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6535 

Mr. Jacksox. That isn't necessary. Let us proceed to your other 
constitutional grounds, if you will, please. 

(At this point Mr. Starr conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. DoTLE. As a matter of information to the witness, he didn't 
quite recite the first amendment perfectly; I think he missed four 
words. 

Mr. Starr. After all, I am just an ordinary worker; I am not a 

Congressman. 

Mr. Jackson. Let us proceed to your other constitutional reasons. 

Mr. Starr. I also refuse to answer this question under the fifth 
amendment of the bill of rights, and I refuse to testify about myself. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have further questions, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. How can you honestly contend that to ans\yer the 
question as to wdiether or not you had been a member of a legitimate 
labor union might tend to incriminate you ? 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Starr.) 

Mr. Starr. I also refuse to answer that question on the grounds, 
previously stated in the last question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Isn't that an unjust reflection upon all of the rank- 
and-file membership of that union ? 

( Tt this point Mr. Starr conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. STAim. I don't believe this is any reflection against me or against 
anybody else. I wdll also refuse to answer that question on the grounds 
of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were identified during the course of the testi- 
mony here this morning by Mrs. Hartle as one of a group of Com- 
munist Party members working within the International Woodwork- 
ers of America. Is that true or false ? 

Mr. Starr. Well, the fact of it is I never do listen very attentively 
to any stool pigeon, whether they are stool i^igeons in the Communist 
Party or in the labor movement. 

Mr. Tavenner. Regardless of that, I am telling you now that that 
is the statement that was made here. Is it true or false ? 

(At this point Mr. Starr conferred with Mr. Hatten. ) 

Mr. Starr. I will refuse to answer that question and I will invoke 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution and I will not testify about 
myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Starr. This question is the same type of a question as "Have 
you stopped beating your wife?"^ — because I am well aware that there 
is men and women who have been indicted and dragged into court and 
thrown in jail because they said they were members of the Communist 
Party. I am also aware of the fact that there is people who said they 
were not members of the Communist Party and were charged with 
perjury. So there you have it. 

So before I answer that question, I will consult with counsel.. 
(At this point Mr. Starr conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Starr. I wdll refuse to answer that question and again invoke 
the fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights and I will not testify about 
myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party at any time ? 

Mr. Starr. This is the same kind of a question and I will give the 
same reasons for refusing to answer as I did in the previous questions. . 



6536 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. You referred to someone who testiJSed before this com- 
mittee as a stool pif!;eon. "\^Tiom did you refer to ? 

(At this point Mr. Starr conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Doyle. In connection with your name. 

Mr. Starr. I will refuse to answer this question and invoke the fifth 
amendment and will not testify about myself. 

Mr. Doyle. I have no other questions. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused from further attendance under 
the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Verl F. Hemeke. 

Mr. Jackson. In the testimony that you are about to ^jive before 
this subcommittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Hemeke. I do. 

Mr. Jackson, Be seated, please. 

Mr. Hemeke. I want to have one understanding about the broad- 
casting on the television before I am questioned. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have a request to make in that connection? 

Mr. Hemeke. In that connection I have a request. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you state it? 

Mr. Hemeke. On Monday night as T watched television, when the 
last witness on the program identified himself, in undertones it was 
told tliat the people taking the pictures were not from the newspapers 
but that they were rather from the police department and that the 
police department was interested in him. I want a guaranty from 
this committee that there will be no such remarks made behind my 
back that I can't hear while I am sitting, here. 

Mr. Jackson. The committee has no intention of making any re- 
marks whatever. 

Mr. Hemeke. That is all I ask. 

Mr. Jackson. Proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. State your name. 

TESTIMONY OF VERL F. HEMEKE, ACCOMPANIED EY COUNSEL, 

SARA H. LESSER 

Mr. Hemeke. Verl F. Hemeke, H-e-m-e-k-e. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ? 

Mr. Hemeke. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify herself? 

Miss Lesser. I am Sara H. Lesser of the Seattle bar. 

Mr. TA\Ti:NNER. When and where were you born, sir ? 

]\Tr. Hemeke. I was born at Everett, Wash. ]\Iy father was a mili- 
tant shop steward in the shingle- weavers' union during the time of 

Mr. Tavenner. I just asked when and where you were born. 

Mr. Hemeke. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside, in Everett ? 

Mr. Hemeke. I reside in Pinehurst, and contrary to anyone else's 
beliefs I think that the people, the working people, the Democratic 
Pai'ty, the people that believe in fair justice, will not see that there is 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6537 

any harm done to me. I have no fear of any violence in that sector 
of the country because of this committee. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am certain that is true. 

Mr. Hemeke. That is entirely true. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived there ? 

]Mr. Hemeke. I have lived in Everett the full length of my life, 
outside of a time or two in leaving that county. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Hemeke. As to my occupation, I consider that my occupation 
is a property right that I don't want to add to the theory that you 
folks have of guilt by association, 

IVIr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer the question ? 

Mr. Hemeke. I decline to answer the question and I am giving 
some reasons now. 

Mr. Jackson. Upon what grounds ? 

Mr. Hemeke. On the grounds that I don't want to add to the theory 
of guilt by association, including any trade union brothers that I 
might have, and so forth. 

Mr. Jackson. Proceed to your constitutional reasons. 

Mr. Hemeke. I am going to. I would like to ask this committee if, 
having allowed people to testify to what they think, politically, over 
a number of days here, are you going to limit me to a question of 
constitutional reasons and not allow me to enter into the sphere of 
political policies as has been testified to here for days? 

Mr. Jackson. This is a considerable amount of political nonsense, 
I might add. 

You have been asked a question. Will you kindly answer it? 

Mr. Hemeke. I am going to answer, but I want to know, are you 
restricting me to the legal when the evidence presented here to date 
has been political ? 

JNIr. Jac^vSon. Yes. It is voluntary testimony on the part of in- 
dividual witnesses. However, I assume that you are going to decline 
to answer the questions. We are certainly not under any necessity 
of listening to a prolonged set of reasons which have no constitu- 
tional basis. 

Mr. Hemeke. Unless I conform with your political opinions. 

Mr. Jackson. I would never want you to conform with my political 
opinions, and I question very much that you ever would. However, 
will you please state your constitutional reasons for declining to 
answer the question ? 

Mr. Hemeke. Would you mind repeating the question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Read the question. 

(Question was read.) 

Mr. Hemeke. I am going to stand on the grounds that is a property 
right, that under the fifth amendment I am not required to testify 
about myself — not necessarily saying against myself — but I am not 
required to testify about myself, as is in the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. jSIr. Hemeke, I have not asked you any question 
about your political beliefs or opinions ; it is not my purpose to so do. 
I want to inquire only as to acts and conduct. 

]Mr. Hemeke. Could I say a point on that ? Could I say an answer ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Not until I ask you a question relating to it, and 
then you may answer. 

48069— 54— pt. 8 3 



6538 COAIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Now you have been identified here as having been a member of the 
Communist Party and having functioned as a Communist Party 
member. 

Mr, Hemeke. Would you reread that from the record ? 

Mr. Tavenner. It is my purpose to ask you what your knowledge 
is, if any, of Communist Party activities. 

Mr. Hemeke. Air. Counsel, I was not allowed to get in this room 
for several days. Wlien I did, I was not given the courtesy of a seat 
and neither was my counsel given the courtesy of a seat. I have been 
rather booted around here, and I would like to ask you to extend the 
courtesy to me of reading back the testimony that was given on myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Of course you know that that is impractical. 

Mr. Hemeke. Is it practical to tell me at this time what this com- 
mittee says I am charged with ? 

Mr. Tavenner. You are not charged with anything 

Mr. Hemeke. You mentioned what the evidence was. 

Mr. Tavenner. Except that you have been identified- 



Mr. Hemeke. Would you mind repeating it word for word ? 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, I think we can resolve this matter very 
quickly. 

As I remember the nature of the testimony, you were identified as 
a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Hemeke. I want that in full. 

Mr. Jackson. Just a moment. I will have a question to ask you 
in just a moment and then you will have your opportunity to make 
a very flat and comprehensive denial of any allegation that may have 
been made. 

As I recall the nature of the testimony, it was to the effect that you 
had been a member of the Communist Party. I desire now to ask you 
whether you have ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Hemeke. I ask that the exact wording which was put in evi- 
dence here against me be read at this time. 

Mr. Jackson. The exact wording of my question is very clear and, 
without respect to any other consideration, I repeat the question — 
Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Hemeke. I repeat my request to speak politically on what has 
been brought before me, as well as legally. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer the question ? 

]Mr. Hemeke. I do not decline. I intend to answer the question. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you answer the question ? 

Mr. Hemeke. I first want to know — I want also to answer the ques- 
tion that the counsel raised as regards to "political." You say I am 
allowed to speak — or rather it is not necessary for me to speak politi- 
cally, but you have for days brought here witnesses and tried to iden- 
tify what a certain section of the people that she thinks or they 
think or whoever has testified think that a certain section of the people 
think. Then you want to hang me on the hook of what they think a 
certain group of people stand for, without alloAving me to discuss what 
I think in regards to political activity. You want me to restrict my 
rights to legal. 

■nn^^' ^'''^^^^^^\ I ^o^'t want you to restrict your rights to anything. 
VVhat I would like to have you do is give a full answer to the question 
winch I have just asked— Have you ever been a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6539 

Mr. Hemeke. I am going to answer that question in my own way, 
because 

Mr. Jackson. Will you answer it first and then explain your 
answer ? 

Mr. Hemeke. In the first place, I don't think this committee has a 
constitutional 

Mr. Jackson. Will you please answer the question ? 

Mr. Hemeke. This is a legal reason under the first amendment. 

Mr. Jackson. Answ^er the question. Then you may give your rea- 
sons thereafter. 

]Mr. Hemeke. Counsel has advised me I should answer the question 
first. I stand on my legal grounds of the fifth amendment in refusing 
to answer this question. 

Mr. Jackson. Are there any additional constitutional grounds that 
you wish to advance ? 

Mr. Hemeke. I want to advance the thinking that this committee 
has not the constitutional right to inquire into my political beliefs, 
and I want to say in addition, if you will give me just one minute, that 
I consider this an antilabor, McCarthyite, Fascist committee — that I 
would like the privilege to enter the antilabor voting record of this 
committee into these records, particularly of Mr. Jackson, if he will 
permit me. 

Mr. Jackson. Of course, your idea as to the nature of this com- 
mittee, so far as being antilabor is concerned, has certainly not been 
borne out in the Seattle area in the light of the overwhelming support 
of organized labor in this district. Your position on that is consid- 
erably out of line with what has been expressed by labor organizations 
in Seattle. 

Mr. Hemeke. Would you let me read your voting record in Con- 
gress on the questions of interest to labor and let the TV audience 
judge for themselves your stand on the record ? 

Mr. Jackson. I w^ould certainly not let you read into the record 
your opinion. 

Mr. Hemeke. I will check it with the CongTessional Eecord. 

Mr. Jackson. That is entirely beside the point; it is not a matter 
under discussion. We are inquiring into the extent and nature of your 
activities in the Communist Party, if there were any. 

Continue, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr, Hemeke. I will give you the same answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. DoTLE. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused from further attendance 
under the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Charles Elmer Thrasher. 

Mr. Jackson. In the testimony that you are about to give before 
this committee, do you solemndy swear that you will tell the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. TiiRASHER. Yes. 



6540 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Jackson. Let the record show at this point that since the com- 
mittee convened at 1 o'clock, there has been present at the committee 
table a le<>al quorum of the subcommittee appointed by the chairman. 

You may proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES ELMER THRASHER, ACCOMPANIED BY 

COUNSEL, C. T. HATTEN 

Mr. Thrasher. Charles Elmer Thrasher, T-h-r-a-s-h-e-r. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ? 

Mr. Thrasher. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. Hatten. I am C. T. Hatten, member of the bar of the State of 
Washington. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, j\Ir. Thrasher ? 

Mr. Thrasher. I was born at North Bend, Wash. 

Mr. Ta\t2nner. Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. Thrasher. I reside at 16459 54th South, Seattle. 

Mr. Ta\t.nner. What is your age? 

Mr. Thrasher. Forty-three. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

(At this point Mr. Thrasher conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Thrasher. I object to that question on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment, which states that my job is my property under the rights 
of the fifth amendment, which says "Nor shall private property be 
taken from me at any time without a just cause." 

Mr. Tavenner. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be di- 
rected to answer. 

Mr. Jackson. Yes, the witness is directed to answer the question as 
to his employment. 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Thrasher.) 

Mr. Thrasher. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated, plus the fact that I will not be compelled to testify 
about myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Thrasher, you have been identified by a witness 
before this committee as having been a functionary in the Commu- 
nist Party. Do you desire to make any explanation of that testimony 
by way of denial or afiirmation of it? If you do, I desire to give you 
the opportunity of doing, so. 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with INIr. Thrasher.) 

Mr. Thrasher. May I ask this question ? When was I accused of 
that? 

Mr. Jackson. As far as the committee is concerned, you are not 
accused of anything. There is information in the possession of the 
committee which indicates that you may have some knowledge of 
Communist Party activities in this area. Counsel's question, as I 
understand it, seeks to determine whether you are willing to cooperate 
with the Congress of the United States in disclosing such information 
that you may have in your possession. 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Thrasher.) 

Mr. Thrasher. Is there a question before me now ? 



COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6541 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, Do you desire to make any explanation to 
the committee of the identification, either by way of denial or affirma- 
tion of it? 

Mr. Thrasher. I will answer the question in this way : That as 
everybody knows, in the past 16 or 18 years, even members of the 
Democratic Party in office in Washington, D. C, have been accused 
of being Communists, and I will not even honor an accusation by a 
stoolpigeon, I never have and I never will, and I never will be one, 
and I base my rejection of answering that question on the fifth amend- 
ment, which says that I shall not testify against myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party 
at any time in the past ? 

Mr. Thrasher. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now? 

Mr. Thrasher. Same answer. 

Mr. Jackson. For the same reasons ? 

Mr. Thrasher. Same reasons. 

Mr. TA^^ENNER. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. I noticed a very beautiful blue-green feather on your 
coat ; I have noticed several of you men testifying before us wearing 
the same attractive green feather. I know that it has nothing to do 
with subversive activities, but does it represent some membership of 
some kind — if that is a fair question? I have noticed now 6 or 7 of 
you wearing that same green feather and I just presume that it has 
some significance. Is that a part of a fishing fly, or what is it ? 

Mr. Thrasher. I don't know what the inference is, but I refuse to 
answer that question on the grounds as previously stated. I might 
like green, but that is none of your business. 

Mr. DoTLE. Well, coming from California, I always notice things 
that are beautiful and attractive, and I have noticed yesterday and 
today the same green feather. 

Mr. Chairman, I happen to know what it represents for the gentle- 
man's information. 

Mr. Jackson. Is there anything further, Mr. Counsel? 

Mr. Ta^'enner. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused from further attendance under 
the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner., William K. Dobbins. 

Mr. Jackson. Raise your right hand, sir. 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcom- 
mittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing by the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Dobbins. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM K. DOBBINS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

C. T. HATTEN 

Mr. Dobbins. William Dobbins. 

Mr. TA^^NNER. It is noted that you are accompanied by the same 
counsel who accompanied the previous witness. 



6542 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

"NVlien and where were you born, Mr. Dobbins ? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you bear the question ? 

Mr. Dobbins. I am waiting until they get through [referring to 
photographers]. 

Mr. Tavenner. That is quite all right. 

Mr. Dobbins. Now will you please turn them lights? It glares in 
my eyes a little bit. 

Mr. Jackson. Just a minute. You are not giving instructions in 
this court. 

Mr. Dobbins. I asked if you please. 

Mr. Jackson. If you will make a proper request, we will. 

Is it your desire not to be televised ? 

Mr. Dobbins. No, I don't care about that. 

Mr. Jackson. In that case, the lights are necessary. They are not 
very pleasant for us up here, either. 

Mr. Dobbins. What was the question ? 

Mr. Jackson. Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe I asked you when and where you were born. 

Mr. Dobbins. I was born in Idaho in 1898. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. Dobbins. In Ballard — Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. How^ long have you lived in Ballard ? 

Mr. Dobbins. Oh, about 18 years, I think. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Dobbins. Laborer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ballard, the committee has been told by a wit- 
ness, Mrs. Hartle, that you were at one time a functionary in the Corn- 
munist Party. If that is true, you should be in a position to give this 
committee information regarding the activities of that organization. 

Now was her identification of j^ou correct or was it in error ? 

Mr. Dobbins. Pardon me ? Did you address me ? Or didn't you say 
"Ballard" or something like that ? 

Mr. TAATi:NNER. If I said "Ballard," I meant "Dobbins." 

(At this point Mr. Dobbins conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Dobbins. Could I have it repeated, because I heard "Ballard" 
in there ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I would be very glad to. 

A witness before this committee identified you as having been a func- 
tionary in the Communist Party. If that testimony is correct and not 
in error, then you should be in a position to give this committee infor- 
mation regarding the activities of the organization of which you were 
a functionary. 

First let me ask you, were you a member of the Communist Party 
at any time? 

Mr. Dobbins. Now is this 1 question or 2 questions? 

Mr. Ta\^nner. One question. 

Mr. Dobbins. The last question is the one you are asking? 

Mr. Tavenner. Thatis the only question. 

Mr. Dobbins. I invoke the fifth amendment. I stand on my rights 
and refuse to testify against myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle? 

Mr. Dobbins. Same answer. 

Mr. Jackson. For the same reasons ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6543 

Mr. Dobbins. Same reason, 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Dobbins.) 

Mr. Dobbins. Same reasons, and I refuse to testify against myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. The w^itness is excused from further attendance under 
the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. George Eussell. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand, sir ? 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcommit- 
tee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Russell. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE EUSSELL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

SAEA H. LESSEE 

Mr. Russell. George Russell, R-u-s-s-e-1-1. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please 
identify herself for the record ? 

Miss Lesser. Sara H. Lesser of the Seattle bar, 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Russell, where do you reside ? 

Mr. Russell. Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Seattle ? 

Mr. Russell. A little over 20 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere were you born and raised ? 

Mr. Russell. I was born in Minnesota. 

Mr, TA\rENNER. "Wliat is your age ? 

Mr. Russell. I was born in 1894. I am 60 years old. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat employment do you have ? 

Mr. Russell. Would you like for me to answer ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. Clearly there has been quite a lot of hysteria here, 
and there is a lot of fear as evidenced by the letters that our chairman 
has read. One was from a George F. Russell that was very fearful 
that his name would be even connected with me. These things always 
spell fear to a lot of other people. 

Now I don't think that I am going to try to contribute to that fear 
in any way, and I don't know as I can quite calm my own fears for 
it ; so right now I am going to take my rights under the first and fifth 
amendments to refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you at one time employed by Boeing Aircraft ? 

Mr. Russell. The answer is the same for the same reason — previous 
reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. You have been identified during the course of this 
hearing as having been a member of the Communist Party at one time. 
I want to ask you if you will tell this committee what you know about 



6544 COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

the activities of the Communist Party in this area, if you have any 
knowledge of them ? 

]\Ir. Russell. Is that a question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. On the same grounds I must refuse to answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, are you now a member of the Communist 
Party? 

INIr. Russell. The same answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Barbara Hartle ? 

Mr. Russell. The same answer under the same objections — the fifth 
amendement of the Constitution. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any 
time while she was engaged as a functionary of the Communist Party 
in Seattle, which was, I believe, from 1942 until 1950 ? 

Mr. Russell. I am not going to villify anybody, and so I object 
or I refuse on the same grounds — the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Russell. That answer is the same thing. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused from further attendance 
under the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Mr. Wayne Paschal. 

Mr. Jackson. Raise your right hand and be sworn, please. 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcom- 
mittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Paschal. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Paschal. May I request no television ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes, indeed. 

The cameras will refrain from photographing the witness during 
the taking of his testimony. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF WAYNE PASCHAL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

SARA H. LESSER 

Mr. Paschal. Wayne Paschal, P-a-s-c-h-a-1. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify herself for the record ? 

Miss Lesser. Sara H. Lesser of the Seattle bar. 

Mr. Tavenner. "VVHien and where w^ere you born, ISIr. Paschal? 

Mr. Paschal. I was born in Topeka, Kans., United States of 
America, June 23, 1910. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Seattle ? 

Mv. Paschal. I reside near Issaquali. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided there? 

Mr. Paschal. Mr. Chairman, with all due respect for the laws of 
the United States and the Congress of the United States which created 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6545 

this committee, I must refuse to participate in this hearing and I 
must refuse to answer this question under my constitutional rights 
of the fifth amendment, as explained to me by my counsel. And a 
reading of the opinions of Dean Griswold of the Harvard Law 
School 

Mr. jACKSOisr. Do you so decline to answer the question ? 

Mr. Paschal, I do. 

Mr. Jackson. On the grounds of the fifth amendment ? 

Mr. Paschal. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be di- 
rected to answer the question. 

Mr. Jackson. What is the pending question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. How long has he resided in the present place of 
his residence? 

Mr. Jackson. You are directed to answer. 

Mr. Paschal. I must refuse under the same terms as previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. IMr. Paschal, you have been identified by Mrs. 
Hartle during the course of this hearing as a person who was known 
to her as a functionary of the Communist Party. If her testimony 
be correct, you should be able to give this committee information 
regarding the functioning of the party. 

Let me ask you if you have any knowledge of Communist Party 
activities in this area ? 

Mr. Paschal. Mr. Chairman, I am fully aware of the inferences 
Avhich people are drawing from the answers that subpenaed witnesses 
at this hearing are giving. However, upon due reading of the opin- 
ions of Dean Griswold of the Harvard Law School, as I have stated, 
and the legal opinion that was given by my counsel here in prior con- 
ferences with her, I must respectfully decline to answer any questions 
under the terms of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Jackson. And do you so decline to answer the pending question ? 

Mr. Paschal. I do so decline. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you at any time a functionary of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mr. Paschal. Same answer for the same reason. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Paschal. The same answer for the same reason. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Paschal. The same answer for the same reason. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused from further attendance un- 
der the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr, Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Harry Crumbaker. 

Mr. Jackson. Raise your right hand, sir. 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcom- 
mittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 



6546 COAE^IUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Crumbaker. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF HARRY CRUMBAKER 

Mr. Crumbaker. Harry Crumbaker, C-r-u-m-b-a-k-e-r. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you do not have counsel accom- 
panying you. It is a practice of the committee to advise witnesses 
that they have the right to consult counsel at any time during their 
interrogation. 

Mr. Crumbaker. If you please, sir, I do not wish any counsel, and 
I wish to answer all questions on my own. I also wish to make a 
statement when the time comes. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe you placed a telephone call to the com- 
mittee staff last night, did you not ? 

Mr. Crusibaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. In which you indicated your desire to appear be- 
fore the committee and to make a statement with regard to informa- 
tion which the commitee had received regarding alleged former Com- 
munist Party membership on your part ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. And you were advised by the staff, were you not, to 
come here today and you would be given a subpena after arriving here 
so that you could make whatever statement you desire ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Sir, I wish to state that I have not been sub- 
penaed and I do not wish to be subpenaed — that I am appearing here 
willingly and I wish to appear here willingly. 

Mr. Jackson. That will be noted in the record. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, sir ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Colfax, Wash., sir, October 14, 1907. 

Mr, Tavenner. Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. Crumbaki.r. I live in Spokane, Wash. 

Mr. Ta^t:nner. How long have you lived in Spokane ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I have lived there, sir, off and on since 1936. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. My payroll title is supervisor of tools ; my work- 
ing title is industrial relations representative of the employment secu- 
rity department. State of Washington. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so employed ? 

Mr, Crumbaker, I went to work on November 16, 1945, sir, and 
have been employed ever since, 

]\lr, Tavenner. Prior to that time what was the nature of your 
employment? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Before that time I was in the Army, sir, for 26 
months. 

Mr. Ta\tenner. And prior to that how were you employed? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Prior to 1943 I worked for tlie Milwaukee Rail- 
road at St. Maries, Idaho, although I maintained my legal residence 
in Spokane. 

Mr. Taa'enner. Are you acquainted with a person by the name of 
Leonard Basil Wildman ? 

Mr. Crumbaker, I know Leonard Wildman ; yes, sir, 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you known him ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6547 

Mr. Crumbaker. I believe, sir, the first time I ever met Leonard 
Wildman was about 1937 or 1938. 

Mr. Taat:nner. Mr. Wildman, in testimony before this committee 
on May 28, 1954, stated that he remembered you as a member of the 
Communist Party, and during the course of her testimony here Mrs. 
Hartle told this committee that she knew you well, that she had at- 
tended many Communist Party meetings with you, and she identified 
you as a member of the Commimist Party. 

Now that is information which has been given to the committee, and 
I wanted you to be fully aware of it in whatever answer you desire 
to make regarding the questions which will now be asked of you. 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. First let me say, were you acquainted with Mrs. 
Hartle — Barbara Hartle ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. For how long a period of time did you know her? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I would say from about the middle of 1936, sir, 
or maybe a little bit later than 1936, and I believe the last time I saw 
Mrs. Hartle was sometime in 1939 or 1940. I am not too sure of the 
exact date, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. What business was she engaged in during that pe- 
riod of time ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. During that period of time I understood that she 
was a district representative or district organizer of the Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Tavenner. She was well known as a Communist Party func- 
tionary ; wasn't she ? 

Mr. Crumbakjer. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was Mr. Wildman a functionary of any type ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I believe he was, sir. At least, he identified to me 
that he was a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time sit in a Communist Party 
meeting or meetings with Mrs. Hartle ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I did. 

Mr. Tavenner. Over how long a period of time ? 

]\Ir. Crumbaker. From time to time, sir. I wouldn't be able to give 
you an exact answer. I would say from late 1936, possibly, and up 
to and including somewhere in 1937 or the early part of 1938 — some- 
where in there, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where were these Communist Party meetings held? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Usually at the home of Mrs. Hartle. 

Mr. Tavenner. In Spokane ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the purpose of the meetings ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. The purposes of the meetings, sir, as far as I 
know 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Well, that may not be quite a proper question to 
ask you as to the purpose. 

Let me ask you, What was done at the meetings ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. The meetings that I attended and know about, sir, 
at the home of Mrs. Barbara Hartle, were usually meetings to give 
out literature about the Communist Party, to discuss the Communist 
Party so far as its activities with organizations with which I was 
working with them. 



6548 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr, Tavenner. I am not sure that I understand the reL^tionship 
of other organizations that you were working with. Will vou explain 
that? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I wish to identify the meetings that I attended, 
sir, as not only being what is known as Communist meetings, as such, 
but there were many of the meetings I attended at the home of Mrs. 
Hartle that were meetings called under the name of either the Wash- 
ington Commonwealth Federation or the Workers' Alliance. Now 
once upon a time, I believe they even called it the white-collar section 
of the Workers' Alliance. 

Mr. TA^^ENNER. In other words, it took on rather the character of 
fraction meetings ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I would say so ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Fraction meetings, which meant meetings of the 
members of the Workers' Alliance, for instance, who were members of 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. That was the way it was explained to me, sir, at a 
later date. I did not know about it at first. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat connection did you have at that time with 
the Workers' Alliance? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Sir, I was a member of the Workers' Alliance, and 
became a member of that organization — I am not exactly sure of the 
date — but I believe sometime in 1937. 

Mr. Tavenner. Due to the very question of time, during these hear- 
ings we have not been able to ask Mrs. Hartle about the Workers' Al- 
liance and its activities, so it may be that you can, very briefly, give 
us information that we desire regarding the aims and purposes of 
the Communist Party fraction within the Workers' Alliance. 

Mr. Crumbaker. Sir, if I may, I might explain very shortly what 
the Workers' Alliance was and then explain to you how I understood 
the fractions of the Communist Party within the Workers' Alliance 
worked. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Crumbaker. First of all, I want to say that I am giving this 
observation, sir, from the viewpoint of Spokane, Wash. 

Mr. Ta\tenner. Yes. 

Mr. Crumbaker. And when I first was employed in Spokane in 
1936, which was a job with the Works Progress Administration, in that 
year I was approached by various people to join an organization which 
at that time was known as the white-collar section of the hodcarriers. 
I didn't know such a thing existed. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe that is new to me. 

Mr. Crumbaker. That is right, sir. It was the white-collar sec- 
tion of the hodcarriers. and tluit was taken over into the Workers' 
Alliance, I believe in 1937 and was called local 66. That is when I 
became acquainted with the purposes of the Workers' Alliance, in 
general. 

Very shortly, if I may, sir, the Workers' Alliance was organized to 
bring forth legislation, should I say, in both the national Congress 
and in the State legislatures and in the local communities to help get 
funds, WPA projects, work projects for the unemployed — in other 
words, the chief objective that I knew it as was an organization of 
unemployed people or WPA workers who were working for sup- 
posedly their own benefit. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6549 

Mr. Tavenner. And also for the extension of relief awards ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I believe that is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now to what extent did the Communist Party uti- 
lize its opportunity to direct and control and influence the activities of 
the Workers' Alliance ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Sir, I will have to answer that in this way : That 
at the time that I became a member of the Workers' Alliance, I was a 
political novice ; I mean I was a student from college who had suddenly 
to leave college to support my mother and family and, not knowing all 
of the political implications of the day, the only thing I knew about 
politics then, sir, was about radio speaker Stevenson, who was run- 
ning for governor, and he was identified, sir, with the Democrat Party, 
and I in 1936 supported radio speaker John C. Stevenson for gover- 
nor. And I became acquainted with members of the Communist Party, 
sir, late in 1936, because they identified themselves and said that they 
were Communists and they wanted me to become a member, as a mem- 
ber of the Workers' Alliance. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you continue attending the fraction 
meetings of the Workers' Alliance ; that is, the Communist Party frac- 
tion meetings made up of members of the Workers' Alliance ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I am not too certain, sir, about the length of time, 
because as the years went by I became more and moi-e suspicious of 
their intent to dominate the Workers' Alliance and I therefore slowly 
but surely skipped meetings and made it a point not to be there, to 
withdraw from any recognition or affiliation to or cooperation with 
the Communist Party's fraction meetings, as such. 

Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say that you attended Com- 
munist Party meetings in Mrs. Hartle's home from 1936 to 1939. 

Mr. Crumbaker. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. A period of two years ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you with the Workers' Alliance during that 
entire period ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. I am not exactly sure of the date, sir, in 
the beginning. I believe the hodcarriers' whitecollar section was in 
there in 1936, and I am not sure whether the Workers' Alliance started 
in late 1936 or early 1937. I am not sure of that. That is as close as 
I can guess it. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat were the circumstances under which you 
stopped attending the meetings in 1939 after having attended them 
for 2 years ? 

]\Ir. Crumbaker. Sir, during this entire period I was identified as a 
Democrat and I was active in Democratic circles, and I was a person 
who carried in formation to the Democratic circles as to the activities 
of the Workers' Alliance and of the Communist fraction, and that was 
my main purpose in attending the fraction meetings, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. You don't mean to leave the impression, do you, 
that you took part in Communist Party meetings just to obtain infor- 
mation for some other organization ? 

Mr. CRrMBAKER. No, sir. I don't leave that impression. I want to 
merely state that I did carry the information to the Democratic Party 
as a good American. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time serve in any office within the 
fraction or within these Communist Party groups ? 



6550 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Crfmraker. No, sir. I was not a member of that fraction, sir. 

Mr. TA^•Ex XER. You were not a member of the fraction ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. But you attended its meetings ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Sometimes, yes, sir — quite frequently. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Where were those meetings held — on the fraction 
of the Workers' Alliance ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. They were often held in Mrs. Hartle's home and 
sometimes in the Workers' Alliance Hall on Division Street in 
Spokane. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of the other Communist 
Party meetings which you attended ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Once in a great while I was told about some major 
functionary of the Communist Party who was going to be in Spokane 
at the time, and I was invited to attend these meetings, not as a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party but rather as an individual who they 
thought was a prospect for the Communist Party. 

And, sir, I wish to state at this time that during all of the period 
I am discussing, from 1936 up through 1939, 1 was considered a pros- 
pect for the Communist Party. I was considered by some people 
as being a Communist Party member, but I was not at any time dur- 
ing that period an actual dues-paying, card-bearing member, as such. 

But I will have to qualify my statement as to denial in member- 
ship of the Communist Party on the basis that I was considered a 
Communist and yet I was not. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now you attended its meetings for a period of 2 
years; you attended the fraction meetings of the Workers' Alliance. 
You took part in the meetings for this 2-year period by accepting 
the Communist Party literature ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir, that is right. I at least took the litera- 
ture, yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. You performed all the functions of a rank-and- 
file member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Other than payment of dues ? 

]Mr. Crumbaker. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. AYhat function of the Communist Party members 
did you not perform ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. My interest there, sir, was to become acquainted 
with the objectives of the Communist Party ; and, even though some 
people there thought I was a Commie, I was not; I was not a dues- 
paying member. 

Mr. Tavenner. You appear to be a very intelligent person ; you 
have proved it by your advancement in various governmental posi- 
tions. It didn't take you 2 years, did it, to find out what was going 
on? 

Mr. Crumbaker. That is right. I mean, as far as finding out, I 
would say this: it was a constant infiltration, sir, and changing of 
policies and programs; so therefore, I continued my activities with 
the Workers' Alliance and met with the fractions of the Workers' 
Alliance who supposedly were Communist members. And some I 
can identify and some I can't, but I did meet with them, that is right, 
sir. 

Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question, Counsel ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6551 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. During the period of time that you were in attend- 
ance at Communist Party meetings, were you in sympathy with the 
aims and purposes of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I was not in any way, sir, in sympathy with their 
proposals for support of communism or the Soviet Union, no, sir ; but 
I was in favor of some parts of their program, where it supported the 
policies and programs of the Workers' Alliance in the Democratic 
Party. I did not approve them, sir. Don't misunderstand me on that. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you amass considerable knowledge of the opera- 
lions of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. And of the personalities involved in the activities of 
ihe Communist Party in this area ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you take that information to the Federal Bureau 
of Investigation? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I was interviewed, sir, by the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation in 1939, to my best knowledge. 

Mr. Jackson. And you at that time divulged to the Federal Bureau 
of Investigation all of the information that j^ou had to the effect 

Mr. Crumbaker. I answered all the questions put to me, sir, as to 
my beliefs, and so on and so forth, and that is all. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you voluntarily go to the Bureau, or were you 
contacted by an agent of the Bureau? 

]\-Ir. Crumbaker. No, sir, I did not. 

Mr. Jackson. You did not volunteer ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. You are speaking about 1939, sir? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. 

Mr. Crumbaker. In 1939 I was notified by one of the supervisors 
in the Works Progress Administration that an FBI wanted to 
interview me in his office, and that was in the office of J. Cales. And 
that is all I know about any contact with the FBI. 

Mr. Jackson. That was in 1939 ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Wliat was the period during which you attended 
meetings of the party ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. From 1936, 1 would say, sir, up to late 1939. Those 
are the dates that I remember as closely as possible. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you attend any meetings after you were inter- 
"^/iewed by this Government agency ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I did attend some meetings, sir, that were held 
by the Workers' Alliance, which known Communists attended and 
were members of the executive board; but I don't believe, sir, as I 
understand it, that they were so-called fraction meetings — they were 
actually executive board meetings of the Workers' Alliance, Local 66. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you know of any other non-Communist who sat 
in these meetings of the Communist Party at the time that you at- 
tended the meetings ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I can't recall their names at the present time, sir, 
unless I was shown a roster or something. 

Mr. Jackson. Understand now that I am not asking for the names 
of Communists but of non-Communists who were in attandance at 
the meetings. 



6552 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Crumbaker. I know what you mean. 

Mr. Jackson. Would these meetings be ordinarily considered to be 
closed meetings of the Communist Party or were they open to whoever 
might want to attend ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. As far as the executive board, sir, they were closed 
meetings of the Workers' Alliance, yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. To what do you attribute the fact that you, a non- 
Communist, were permitted to sit in closed meetings of the Communist 
Party, which is completely in violation of any testimony that this com- 
mittee has ever heard — that a non-Communist was admitted to a 
closed meeting of the Communist Party ? 

]\Ir. Crumbaker. Sir, I think I can explain that. Perhaps you have 
given it a little different interpretation. The meetings I attended I 
knew were being attended by fractions of the Communist Party, but 
many of those meetings, sir, were actually the executive board of the 
Workers' Alliance, and that is the reason why I was allowed to attend. 

JNIr. Jackson. Of all Communists ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I can't say they were all Communists, no, sir. 
I would have to have a roster of the executive board, and that was con- 
stantly changing from time to time, sir. But I can name some people 
who were on there. 

Mr. Jackson. Well, in light of the somewhat confused state of the 
matter, I think it would be very dangerous at this time to name any 
names, unless counsel wishes to pursue the matter further. 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. I think it should be pursued by private 
conference and, after developing the. information and giving the staff 
an opportunity to make some investigation, then produce that type of 
testimony. 

Now you have indicated a willingness to cooperate with the staff 
of this committee in every respect, have you not ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir, I wish to cooperate. I wish to answer 
every question, too, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was there any understanding by which you were 
not to pay dues and that you were to be a member-at-large of the 
Communist Party or anything of that character ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I don't believe, sir, that I was ever considered a 
member. 

I will say this : That I bought literature from the Communist Party, 
and I freely admit it. I bought Soviet Russia Today ; I bought Com- 
munist International, I believe it is called, for my own information. 
1 was curious about it. 

Mr. Tavenner. Just like every other member of the party was 
required to do ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Not all the time, no, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. They were requested to do it, weren't they ? 

Mr. CRUi\rBAKER. That is right. They were always after selling 
their literature, and I didn't buy it every time, no, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you see other Communist Party members pay- 
ing their dues at the meetings ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I am not too sure of the dues part of it, sir. I 
believe that there were times in which some kidding remarks were made 
about collecting dues — and whether that was a Commie Party meet- 
ing or whether it was a Workers' Alliance meeting, sir — but I shrugged 
my shoulders. I was a little inexperienced in politics, but as the years 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6553 

went by I grew to know them and know what they were doing and, 
as the years went by, I withdrew from these so-called meetings. 

Mr. Ta VENDER. Why did you withdraw ? 

Mr. Ckt: MBAKER. Because I was getting thoroughly disgusted with 
their tactics and with their aims and objectives. I did not believe in 
them ; and I didn't think that they were going in accord with the prin- 
ciples of Americanism or the principles under which we live. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you finally arrive at that conclusion ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I would say about 1939 definitely, sir, and for a 
certainty, as far as making a definite move, in 1940 very definitely. 

Mr. Tavenner. That is possibly as much as 4: years that it took for 
you to make up your mind. 

Mr. Crumbaker. That is right, sir ; it took me that long. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now during that period of time, were you ap- 
proached from time to time about becoming a member of the party ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. By whom were you approached ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. The first time, sir, that I can remember or recol- 
lect ever being recruited as a member of the Communist Party was 
a man by the name of Jack Wheeler. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where is he now ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. He is dead, sir. His wife at that time was the 
woman known as Maybelle Wheeler. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was that at the very beginning of your attendance 
at these meetings ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. No, sir. No, that was where I worked, sir, and he 
came to me and asked me why I didn't join the rest of them because 
everybody else was becoming a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Tavenner. That was when you were with the Workers' Al- 
liance ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. That was when, sir, I first started to work. I 
wasn't even a member of anything at the time. It was an approach 
made to me to join the Communist Party, which I did not. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was that before you started attending these meet- 
ings that you have told us about in 1936 ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long before that was it that this gentleman 
asked you to become a member ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I think the first time I ever was approached was 
right around June or July, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Of what year ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Of 1936. 

Mr. Tavenner. How soon after that did you begin attending the 
meetings ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I was invited to attend meetings maybe 1 or 2 or 
3 weeks later, sir, and I did attend. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was Mr. Jack Wheeler there ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did he say anything more to you about paying 
your dues ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. He said that I was a prospect for the Communist 
Party and announced me as such and he wanted me to be there to find 

48069—54 — pt. 8 4 



6554 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

out what they were doing and, being a political novice, I didn't know 
what the score was, so I stayed there. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you really intending to tell this committee that 
you remained merely a prospect for 4 years ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. That is right, sir; I very definitely say that. I 
was gaining information for my own satisfaction and I was getting 
a w^ide political knowledge and, as I went along, I became more 
thoroughly disgusted with it and finally withdrew from both the 
Workers' Alliance and the (Washington) Commonwealth Federation. 

I must say this, sir : that during this same period of time the Wash- 
ington Commonwealth Federation became very active and most of my 
activity was with the Washington Commonwealth Federation, more 
and more as time went on, which I considered at that time to be a part 
of the Democratic organization, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Who was the next person that requested you to sign 
a card and become a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. That is a little hard to answer, sir. I think that 
this fellow came back 3 or 4 times. I mean I attended a meeting, I 
asked a lot of questions, and they kept coming at me and saying, "Well, 
why don't you join?" And I said, "Well, I don't know enough about 
it." And being more or less of a political novice, I would say tliat I 
wanted to find out what they were all about, I heard people saying 
things about it, and so therefore I would say that I can't say exactly 
who the next person was. I talked with Mr. Jim Ilaggin, I talked with 
his wife Caroline, and Arthur Furnisli — those people. 

Mr. Tavenner. And they were all persons known to you to be mem- 
bers of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Not at first, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, at last? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I finally was convinced that they were members 
of tlie Communist Party. 

Mr. Tavenner. What did you base your conviction upon ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Well, first of all, sir, on the basis that they told 
me that they were members of the Communist Party and wanted ms 
to become a member, which I refused to do. 

Mr. Tavenner. And also their attendance at these meetings? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Not all meetings, sir — some meetings. I mean, I 
don't want to give you the wrong impression, or the committee, that 
I attendee! all meetings. I attended occasional meetings, which I 
understand might have been and might not have been the executive 
board of the Workers' Alliance and might have been fraction meetings. 

Mr. Tavenner. You told us at the beginning of your testimony 
that you could well understand from the nature of your attendance 
at meetings, if I recall it correctly, that others in that group would 
have a right to believe that you were a member of the Communist 
Party, is that right ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I believe that other people thought I was, yes, 
sir — I mean other people who saw me going to these meetings. 

And I want to clarify that, sir, in this respect: That I am sure that 
everybody there knew that I was not a dues-paying member. 

Mr. Tavenner. Who was the treasurer of the group of the Com- 
munist Party which you attended ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. You mean of the so-called fraction or whatever 
was the Workers' Alliance fraction ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6555 

Mr. Tavenner, We will take that first. 

Mr. Crumbaker. I don't exactly know. I will have to look at my 
notes here, sir. 

There was a man by the name of Al, a man that lived at the Pette- 
court Hotel. I just can't recall his last name right now. But he was 
an old man, rather stooped, that couldn't do too much work. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was he the person to whom people paid their dues ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. As far as the Workers' Alliance was concerned. 

Mr. Tavenner. i am not talking about dues to the Workers' Alli- 
ance ; I am talking about Communist Party dues. 

Mr. Crumbaker. I don't know that, sir. As I understood it, you 
could pay your dues to anybody that came up to you to collect it and 
V7as in a meeting. The only one I ever saw collecting dues, as such, 
or taking money was Barbara Hartle, and I did see her take money. 

Mr. Tavenner. From Communist Party members ? 

JMr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever give her any money ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. No, sir ; only to buy, occasionally, some literature. 
I believe, sir, that there might have been a time or two in which I gave 
$1 or $2 or $3 for some kind of a movement that they had on at the 
tmie. And might I say, sir, what those were ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Crumbaker. For instance, they had an aid to the veterans from 
Spain — I mean that would be a subterfuge in getting money — and 
of course once in awhile I did contribute to those things. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, and you knew, as a matter of fact, that that 
money went into the coffers of the Communist Party and was used 
for the propagation of Communist Party literature ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I highly suspicioned it, sir; yes, sir, I did. I 
didn't definitely know, because I didn't know where the money went 
from there, but I highly suspicioned it. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee of all the contributions 
that you made that you had reason to believe went into the Commu- 
nist Party? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I have no basis to know where they went except 
for the basis for which they were given — that they were asked for. 
There was a League for Industrial Democracy — I don't know whether 
you recall that name — contributions ; there was help for widows and 
for orphans — poor people; collections made as to helping somebody 
ousted from their home, in the Workers' Alliance — things of that sort. 
That is the kind of contributions I made. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever issued a Communist Party card ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever register as a Communist ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. No, sir. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. I believe that is all I desire to ask you at this time. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. When did you become highly suspicious of the purpose 
for which your money was going, which you said you gave to the Com- 
munist Party at these meetings ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. You mean at the time? I would say, sir, in 
1937-38— through there. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. And you stayed in attendance at these Communist 
Party meetings from 1936 to 1940 ? 



6556 COIVEMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Crumbaker. I did, sir. I mean — I beg pardon, sir ? You said 
1940. You are misinterpreting me to this extent, sir: that they 
weren't Communist Party meetings, as such ; they were Workers' Alli- 
ance, so-called Communist organization fraction meetings sometimes, 
and sometimes they were Washington Commonwealth Federation, 
but most of the meetings, sir, that I attended were meetings of the 
Washington Commonwealth Federation people in the Washington 
Commonwealth Federation from various groups and from the Work- 
ers' Alliance, and I very definitely was able to identify many people 
from the Comnnmist Party in those groups who told me that they 
were members. But, sir, I will not say, I cannot say that I was will- 
ingly attending fraction meetings, as such, as an interested party ; but 
at these meetings I am speaking of, I was approached many times 
by the Communist Party for cloiiations. 

Mr. Doyle. Over a period of 4 years ? 

Mr, Crumbaker. Over a long period of time. 

Mr. Doyle. Over a period of 4 years ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. And you kept on giving for 4 years to these causes of 
which you have said that you were highly suspicious ? 

]SIr. Crumbaker. Very reluctantly, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. No one compelled you to give, did they ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I don't think so. I was trying to find out what 
was going on. 

]Mr. Doyle. Why did you give money to things highly suspicious ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I wasn't giving it to a Communist organization; 
I felt I was giving to whatever cause that was asked. 

JSIr. Doyle. It was a Communist meeting, wasn't it ? 

]\Ir. Crumbaker. Not all of them. 

Mr. Doyle. Some of them? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Some of them were Communist fraction meetings ; 
and at the time I was invited to go to a Communist fraction meeting, it 
was usually for some kind of literature. I will say that, definitely. 

Mr. Doyle. Did you graduate from college ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. No, sir. I was in my senior year, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. What was it at the end of about 4 years that you dis- 
covered about the Communist Party that you didn't know when you 
first started to attend these meetings? 

Mr. Crumbaker. There was a good many things, sir, I didn't know 
about. 

Mr. Doyle. Give me 2 or 3 of the major things. 

Mr. Crumbaker. Could I explain myself from 1936 on, sir, chrono- 
logically ? 

Mr. Doyle. I am asking you a direct question. Give me, say, 2 
of the major things that you discovered about the Communist Party 
that motivated you to no longer attend these Comnnmist Party frac- 
tion meetings that you were not aware of when you started 4 years 
before. 

Mr. Crumbaker. I will say this, sir: Wlien I first started attending 
a meeting of the so-called fraction within the Workers' Alliance, they 
appealed to me on the basis of the Workers' Alliance program and I 
was not aware of the fact that they were a Communist fraction, but 
in time I did find out that they were. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6557 

Mr. Doyle, How long after you first began to attend them did you 
liave 3'our eyes opened to the fact that tliey were Communist dominated 
and controlled? 

Mr. Crumbaker. From month to month. 

Mr. Doyle. The first month after you attended ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I would say I was told that they were in favor 
of our program, of the Workers' Alliance. 

Mr. Doyle. Told by whom ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Told by these people. 

Mr. Doyle. By what people ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Barbara Hartle, John Hartle, Jim Haggin and 
Art Furnish. 

Mr. Doyle. Were they all leaders of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Later on, sir, I identified them as such; yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, at the time they told you this, did you know them 
to be Communist Party leaders ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir, they told me they were. 

Mr. Doyle. Yet you stayed in the group ? 

Mr. Crumbaker.' I mean — I didn't stay as a member ; no, sir ; I was 
invited to the meetings. 

Mr. Doyle. You took advantage of their meetings and their courtesy 
and their hospitality 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. For 4 years, about 4 years ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Sir, your implication is that I was attending as 
a member of the Communist fraction; I was not. I was invited to 
attend these meetings. Some were Workers' Alliance ; some of them 
were so-called fraction meetings, which I discovered in time. 

Mr. Doyle. You say you were invited. Do I understand you to 
imply that every meeting you attended you received a special invitation 
to go to? 

Mr. Cruinibaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. ^Y[\o from ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Jim Haggin. 

Mr. Doyle. He invited you to every meeting you attended ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Most of them, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Invited you especially every time for 4 years; other- 
wise you wouldn't have gone. Is that what you are telling me? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Sir, I attended meetings over a period of 4 years, 
but the inference, as I understand, sir, was that it was a good number 
of meetings, and I don't think it was too many. 

Mr. Doyle. One meeting a month ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. No, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. One meeting in 2 months ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. No. sir. 

Mr, Doyle. Three months ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Maybe 4 months, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. That would be 12 meetings ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. I will very willingly admit that. 

Mr. Doyle. Were you in the public service at that time ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I was with the Works Progress Administration ; 
yes, sir, 

Mr. Doyle. You were a public official ? 

Mr, Crumbaker. Well, I was what you would call in research. 



6558 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Doyle. An employee of an important Federal unit ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. A minute ago, you said, in answer to counsel's ques- 
tion, that they told you — whoever they were you referred to told you 
about this, what they believed ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Some of them did, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you mean Mrs. Hartle and those people? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle, "^^lien they told you what they believed, what did you 
do about it ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I didn't do anything about it, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. What did they tell you they believed ? You knew they 
were Communist leaders. 

Mr. Crumbaker. They tried to explain to me what their program 
was, sir, and I wouldn't accept it all. 

Mr. Doyle. Wlien did they begin trying to tell you about their 
program and what they believed — during the first year ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir — possibly once, and then each year, why, 
S or 4 times. 

Mr. Doyle. That is 4 times in 2 years. How about the third year? 

Mr. Crumbaker. They told me about the program, yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. And the fourth year, they told you ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. They told me a little again, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. And you still stayed in the 4 years after they told you 
10 or 12 times ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Sir, I wasn't a member. 

Mr. Doyle. This is the most unusual case I have heard of in my 
years on this committee, sir — I am being perfectly frank with you — 
the most unusual testimony I have ever heard under any similar con- 
ditions. 

Mr. Crumbaker. Sir, could I explain to you my interpretation of 
this thing? 

Mr. Doyle. Of what thing? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Of what you are talking about, as to its being 
most unusual for me to attend. 

Mr. Doyle. Yes. 

Mr. Crumbaker. I would like to say this: that in 1936, when Mr. 
Jim Haggin talked to me about membership in the Communist Party, 
and which I refused to join, he told me kiddingly that there were first- 
grade- second-grade and third-grade Commies, and he said that I was 
a third-grade Commie, a person that supposedly cooperated with the 
appropriations program of the Workers' Alliance and knew that the 
Commies were supporting it, sir, and I told liim that I wasn't in any 
way or form a member of the Communist Party, that I was a member 
of the Workers' Alliance and the (Washington) Commonwealth Fed- 
eration and that any knowledge or any information he gave me was on 
that basis. 

Mr. Doyle. What did they tell you about tlie change of our form of 
government, if anything, during the 4 years ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. That was sometliing tliat I was unable to ascertain 
at first, sir, except when I read the literature I could see eventually 
what the end was. 

Mr. Doyle. You never aslced them about that, I assume ? 
Mr. Crumbaker. I think I did ; yes, sir. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6559 

Mr. Doyle. You read about it — and whom did you ask about it ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I asked Barbara Hartle and Jim Haggin. 

Mr. Doyle. What did they tell you ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. They tried to say they were good Americans and 
were going to do it by democratic principles, and I didn't believe them. 

Mr. Doyle. You didn't believe that the first time they told you, 
did you ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. No, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Why didn't you get out of the gang then ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I wish the heck I had. I am very sorry for any- 
thing I done during that period. And I will say this very emphati- 
cally to this committee: that everybody today should be very defi- 
nitely careful about joining any organization until he very definitely 
finds out if it is Communist or Communist dominated, because I am 
against • 

Mr. Doyle. You became convinced that they were not good Ameri- 
cans, didn't you ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. That is right. 

Mr. Doyle. What did you do about it when you came to that con- 
clusion ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I withdrew. 
. Mr. Doyle. You concluded that they were dangerous citizens. 

Mr. Crumbaker. Let me qualify, in answer to that, sir, in this re- 
spect: It was popular knowledge at the time, sir — in 1939 — that the 
Communists were infiltrating in various groups, but I, myself, sir, did 
not consider them a threat because it was such a small minority : but 
at a later date, when the war came on, when the defense period came, 
that was the time when they were a definite threat. 

Mr. Doyle. What year was that ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I would say the defense efforts were really grow- 
ing in 1940, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. They wera a real threat in 1940 ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I am sure of that, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. You knew a group in Spokane that you considered a 
real threat in 1940 ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mt. Doyle. "Wliat did you do about it ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I didn't do anything about it, because other people 
were doing something about it. 

Mr. D0YI.E. How did you know ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I observed in the newspapers — by reading about 
it ; Avhat my friends told me ; what the Democrats told me. 

]Mr. Doyle. This is the last question, sir. 

In 1936 or 1937 to 1940 you knew that a group of men and women 
in your community, in which you were an employee of an important 
agency of the Federal Government, in 1940, because of the war, be- 
came dangerous citizens ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir ; I knew that. 

Mr. Doyle. Yet you did nothing about it to help your Government ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes ; I did, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Wliat did you do ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. That is what I wanted to explain. 

I was a Democrat, as such. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, you needn't be ashamed of that. 



6560 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Crumbaker. As I went along, I kept informing tlie people I 
knew in tlie Democratic circles that these people were Communists and 
that they had a definite threat; and they took that information and 
they told me to get some more, and I did, 

Mr. Doyle. Wliom did you give it to ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Mr. Pat Dunbar, Democrat central chairman of 
the Democrat Party in Spokane County. I gave it to Mr. Ed Connol- 
ley, who is also a member of the Democrat Central Committee. I met 
in their offices, sir, and told them about who was Commies. I took 
Mr. Pat Dunbar down to the Desert Hotel one time and pointed out 
a Communist official by the name of Mr. Morris Rappaport. 

Mr. Doyle. Was he an official of the Communist Party in Spokane ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I don't believe so. He was identified as some- 
one 

Mr. Doyle. Did you ever report Communist activities to others than 
those men? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I don't believe so — ^because they told me everybody 
knew about it, the FBI knew about it. 

IMr. Jackson. Is there any reason why this witness should not be 
excused? 

Mr. Ta\^nxer. No, except, Mr. Chairman, we will want to inter- 
I'ogate him further. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, the witness will be continued under the 
subpena of the committee subject to the call of the committee. 

Mr. Crumbaker. Mr. Chairman, may I make a very short statement ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. 

Mr. Crumbaker. I want to be on record, sir, that I think this com- 
mittee is doing a very fine job, and I am very sorry that a loose bandy- 
ing of names, as to evidence presented here, indicated that I was a 
member of the Communist Party. In fact, I was not a member of the 
Communist Party. And I believe, sir, the newspapers said that I was 
a district organizer of the Communist Party. I was not a district 
organizer of the Communist Party; I was a district organizer of the 
Washington Commonwealth Federation, which at that time I did not 
fhink was subversive. 

That is my position : That I belonged to organizations whicli at the 
time were not declared subversive but at a later date tliey were so de- 
clared and I became evident of it, sir, and I withdrew from it, and I 
felt I was a better American by withdrawing from it. 

Mr. Jackson. Isn't it true that the things that were to draw those 
activities to the attention of the Federal Government were in fact 
taking place during the period of your membership ? 

Mr. Cruinibaker. My membership in what ? 

]\Ir. Jackson. The organizations to which j'^ou have reference. You 
said after they were cited you got out. 

Mr. Crumbaker. I said in 1940 I got out of them — long before they 
were cited. In fact, I believe, sir, that as far as I have been able to 
ascertain it was not until 1950 that these organizations were declared 
subversive on the Secretary of State's list. 

Mr. Jackson. I would say as far as the bandying of names around, 
it would certainly seem to me that Mrs. Hartle had evident reason to 
believe that you were a member of the Communist Party. Seeing you 
in closed meetings of the Communist Party, I think would obviously 
lead one to that conclusion, whether rightfully or wrongfull3\ I am 



COMJXrUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6561 

not passinc: on the merits of the claim at all, but I would certainly feel 
that that identification was made in all good faith. 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. In believing; you to be a member. 

Mr. Crumbaker. Mr. Jackson, if I may, sir, I wish to state that at 
no time during- this period of time did I determine myself as an indi- 
vidual that at the time was doing anything un-American or subversive. 
But I did become aware of the fact that the organizations were becom- 
ing subversive ; that was the reason why I withdrew. 

I want to also state, sir, that we signed a non-Commie affidavit in 
our Department, and 1 signed that without reservation because I knew 
in my own heart and conscience that I would never belong to a sub- 
versive organization. 

Mr. Jacksox. Let me ask you this : Do you deny categorically that 
you were ever a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you deny categorically that you ever paid dues 
as such ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you ever pay chies to the Young Communist 
League or to the Communist Political Association at any time? 

Mr. Crumbaker. I deny that.* 

Mr. Jackson. And you were never a member of the Socialist Work- 
ers Party ? 

Mr. Crumbaker. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Subject to being continued under the subpena, you 
are excused. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. At this time the committee will stand in recess until 
3:50. 

(Whereupon, at 3 : 40 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene 
at 3: 50 p. m.) 

("Wliereupon, at 3 : 50 p. m., the hearing was reconvened.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. John Caughlan. 



'te^ 



TESTIMONY OF JOHN CAUGHLAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
ALFRED J. SCHWEPPE AND PHILIP BURTON 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, sir ? 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcommittee, 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Caughlan. I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are Mr. John Caughlan ? 

Mr. Caughlan. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please 
identify themselves for the record ? 

Mr. ScHWEPPE. I am Alfred J. Schweppe of the Seattle bar, ap- 
pearing here by request and assignment by the president of the Seattle 
Bar Association, who is concerned that Mr. Caughlan should have 
appropriate defense. 



6562 COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES EN" THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

111 that respect, I would like, with the permission of the committee, 
to make a very brief statement, which I think the committee would 
like to hear. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Schweppe, would it be just as convenient for you 
if we waited until after the witness has given his testimony? 

Mr. Schweppe. I would prefer to state it now, if I may. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. The witness will be excused from the 
chair during the time that the statement is being made in line with 
the rules of the committee. 

(Witness temporarily excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Schweppe. 

STATEMENT OF ALFRED J. SCHWEPPE 

Mr. Schweppe. This committee needs no suggestion of the im- 
portance of persons appearing before this committee, or in any official 
public proceeding, having the need and desire of counsel. 

I was delighted the other day when I read in the paper that when 
a witness appeared who did not have counsel, the committee called 
on the Seattle Bar Association to furnish counsel, and that associa- 
tion has undertaken to furnish counsel in conformity with the oath 
that every lawyer takes in the State 'of Washington, one portion of 
which reads — 

I will never reject, from any consideration personal to myself, the cause of the 
iefenseless or oppressed — 

I have here that oath, which every member of the Washington State 
Bar swears to when he becomes admitted to the bar. This oath — the 
Washington form — incidentally has been recommended to the bar of 
the United States by the American Bar Association and appears at the 
end of the canons of ethics. 

I would like to direct attention to one other point in this oath of the 
Washington State Bar, because it falls within the province of this 
committee. Paragraph 2 of this oath reads as follows : 

I will support the Constitution of the United States and the constitution of 
the State of Washington ; I am not now and never have been a member of any 
organization or party having for its purpose and object the overthrow of the 
United States Government by force or violence. 

This is the first State having any court rule putting that provision 
in its oath. It got into the oath several years ago through the activi- 
ties of the committee of which Mr. Traeey Griffin, with whom I think 
the committee is acquainted, was a member. 

I would like to say further with reference to the appearance of coun- 
sel and the misunderstanding that some members of the public some- 
times have — and it is im])ortant in this case because I am associated 
here with a young man, Mr. Philip Burton, who is offering his serv- 
ices at the request and direction of the American Civil Liberties Union, 
who has informed me that he has already suffered criticism and prej- 
udice by reason of his agreeing to appear — to act under those cir- 
cumstances as counsel to Mr. Caughlan. 

Therefore, I would like to put into the record — I won't read it — 
both the Oath of Attorney and the resolution of the American Bar 
Association adopted at Boston last fall. I am a member of the house 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6563 

of delegates and had tlie privilege of voting for that resolution, which 
reads as follows : 

Resolved, 

1. That the American Bar Association reaffirms the principles that the right of 
defendants to the benefit of assistance of counsel and the duty of the bar to pro- 
vide such aid even to the most unpopular defendants involves public acceptance 
of the correlative right of a lawyer to represent and defend, in accordance with 
the standards of the legal profession, any client without being penalized by hav- 
ing imputed to him his client's reputation, views, or character. 

2. That the association will support any lawyer against criticism or attack in 
connection with such representation, when, in its judgment he has behaved in 
accordance with the standards of the bar. 

3. That the association will continue to educate the profession and the public 
on the rights and duties of a lawyer in representing any client, regardless of the 
unpopularity of either the client or his cause. 

4. That the association request all State and local associations to cooperate 
fully in implementing these declarations of principles. 

And may I say, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, that 
the Seattle Bar Association, shortly after this resolution was adopted 
adopted a similar resolution and insists upon living up to those 
principles. 

Those members of the public who seem to misunderstand why law- 
yers appear in certain causes need only to ask themselves that one 
question : "Suppose I were in trouble and I was told that no member 
of the bar would defend me according to the law of the land?" Any- 
body who asks himself that question will understand that lawyers 
must defend people as a matter of obligation and as a duty to their 
profession regardless of wliat the character of the proceeding is in 
which the client happens to be involved. 

I wish to state further that I am associated here, as I said before, 
with this young man, Mr. Philip Burton, who is appearing here, he 
informs me, as a representative of the American Civil Liberties Union, 
which also desires to extend counsel to Mr. Caughlan. 

(The Oath of Attorney, which Mr. Schweppe requested be placed 
in the record, follows:) 

Oath of Attorney 
State of Washington, 

County of , ss : 

I, do solemnly swear — 

1. I am a citizen of the United States, and owe my allegiance thereto. 

2. I will support the Constitution of the United States and the constitution 
of the State of Washington ; I am not now and never have been a meml^er of any 
organization or party having for its purpose and object the overthrow of the 
United States Government by force or violence ; 

3. I will abide by the Canons of Professional Ethics approved by the Supreme 
Court of the State of Washington ; 

4. I will maintain the respect due to the court of justice and judicial oflBcers ; 

5. I will not counsel or maintain any suit or proceeding which shall appear 
to me to be unjust, or any defense except such as I believe to be honestly debatable 
under the law of the land, unless it be in defense of a person charged with a 
public offense ; I will employ for the purpose of maintaining the causes confided 
to me such means only as are consistent with truth and honor, and will never 
seek to mislead the judge or jury by any artifice or false statement of fact or 
law ; 

6. I will maintain the confidence and preserve inviolate the secrets of my 
client, and will accept no compensation in connection with his business except 
from him or with his knowledge and approval ; 

7. I will abstain from all offensive personality, and advance no fact preju- 
dicial to the honor or reputation of a party or witness unless required by the 
justice of the cause with which I am charged ; 



6564 COi\UMUNIST ACTIVIT[ES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

8. I will never reject from any consideration personal to myself, the cause 
with which I am charged ; 

9. I will never reject, from any consideration personal to myself, the cause 
of the defenseless or oppressed, or delay any man's cause for lucre or malice. 

So help me God. 






Subscribed and sworn to before me this — day of 19 — . 

, Judge. 

Mr. Jacksox. Thank you very much for your statement, Mr. 
Schweppe. 

First of all, I should like to say that the committee was very happy 
when the president of the Seattle Bar Association appeared before 
the committee on the day before yesterday, I believe, representing 
a witness who stated before the committee that he did not have funds. 

The committee welcomes you here today in your capacity as legal 
counsel. On many occasions, and I am sure on the occasion of every 
hearing which this committee has held anywhere, we have attempted 
to make it very clear that the committee does not look past the repre- 
sentation into the motives of any attorney who appears before us. 
It is explicit in the rules of the committee that we will not attempt 
to explore the confidential relationship between counsel and client, 
and questions are avoided which might give the impression that that 
confidential relationship was in any way being violated. 

Certainly the committee feels that the Seattle Bar Association reso- 
lution which has just been introduced into the record is in the best tra- 
dition of American jurisprudence and we are very happy to have it 
in there. 

Once again, on behalf of the committee, I welcome you as a dis- 
tinguished member of the Seattle Bar. 

Mr. Doyle, do you care to say anything ? 

Mr. DoTLE. As long as you have called on me for a word, Mr. Chair- 
man, I will join in the remarks of my subcommittee chairman. 

As past president of my own local bar association in California, as 
past vice president of the State Bar of California Delegates and as 
a member at present, and having been a member of the California 
legislative committee of the State bar for several years, I compliment 
the Seattle Bar Association on what they have done in representing 
these witnesses, and I also wish to compliment the young man from 
the American Civil Liberties Union for comincr on the same basis as 
counsel. 

I think perhaps, Mr. Chairman, it is appropriate for me to make this 
observation — and I am sure that I am not mistaken, altliough I don't 
have the book of the American Bar Association with me on my desk 
here today. 

I think the very committee that you referred to, ]\fr. Schweppe, of 
which Mr. Griffin was a distinguished member, recommended to the 
American Bar Association that any lawyer who is a member of the 
Communist Party be disbarred, and T am sure that the record so 
speaks by a resolution in which Mr. Griffin joined in 1951. 

Mr. Jackson. I would add only, with reference to the bar asso- 
ciation resolutions, that the activities of this committee were officially 
endorsed by the house of delegates of the American Bar Association, 
a matter in which we who serve upon the committee take considerable 
pride. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6565 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN CAUGHLAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, 
ALFRED J. SCHWEPPE AND PHILIP BURTON— (Resumed) 

Mr. Caughlan. Now, sir, may I make a statement in regard to 
counsel that is representing me ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. 

Mr. Caughlan. I want to state, with the consent of counsel, first 
of all to express my gratitude to the bar association and the American 
(.'ivil Liberties Union for the action which they have taken; sec- 
ondly, to state that counsel representing me here is not only counsel 
who has been appointed by the Seattle Bar and the American Civil 
Liberties Union but likewise is counsel fully of my own choice ; and, 
thirdly, that I consider both of my counsel distinguished gentlemen. 

Mr. Jackson. Thank vou. 

Mr. Caughlan. Now may I state a legal objection, sir, to any far- 
ther questions being asked me ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes, you may state it. 

Mr. Caughlan. I want to state as an objection to further questions 
being asked me that the Constitution provides for the separation of 
powers of the Government into judicial, legislative, and executive. 
^Vlien President Truman was summoned by Mr. Velde to appear be- 
fore this committee, he raised as an objection for appearing and based 
his refusal to appear before the committee the ground that he was 
a past Chief Executive and this was an invasion of the executive power 
of the Government. 

I wish to state that my being subpenaed here in the midst of my 
representation as counsel, as an officer of the judicial branch of Gov- 
ernment, both of the United States courts and of the courts of the 
State of Washington, as an officer of the court, was and is an invasion 
of the judicial power of Government. 

I might state, sir, that since my being subpenaed, my office phone 
has been practically out of business. The bar association, I am in- 
formed, was flooded by calls. Some of the calls to my office were of 
an anonymous character of a profane and vicious kind. The bar as- 
sociatioii was flooded and even distinguished counsel and their homes 
liave not been free from such anonymous calls. This committee, sir, 
has stirred up the deepest bigotry, intolerance, and hatred in this 
community 

]VIr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I recognize the witness as a member of 
the bar. Nevertheless, I see no reason why we should go extremely 
beyond the time or the methods that we have been required to use for 
other witnesses, and I submit that this charge that the committee has 
caused bigotry, and so forth, is not a legal reason for him not to answer 
questions. Therefore I call for order. 

Mr. Jackson. I think the point has been raised as to the jurisdiction 
of the committee, and the Chair would like to correct one statement — 
that in the midst of your representation you were called as a witness. 
It is my understanding from our own distinguished counsel and from 
our investigators that you had completed your representation of your 
clients. 

Mr. Caughlan. That is correct, sir, although I had to put up a little 
bit of a fight for it, — and those who noticed what happened the day 
before yesterday will recall. 

Mr. Jackson. As soon as it was brought to the attention of the com- 
mittee that you had additional clients, it was very quickly decided 
that you should not in any case be called. 



6566 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

As far as the separation of the powers are concerned, it is quite 
true that the legislative and the judicial and the executive branches 
constitionally are separated. However, in the charge laid upon tliis 
committee under the provisions of Public Law 601, there is no im- 
munity or exemption granted to any citizen by virtue of his occupation 
or his calling. In the Los Angeles area, for instance, the committee 
discovered branches of the Communist Party comprised entirely of 
attorneys. Those attorneys were duly subpenaed to appear and give 
testimony as would have been any other citizen regardless of his 
occupation. 

In light of that fact, unless there is objection from Mr. Doyle, the 
committee will continue its usual procedure of questioning. 

Mr. Caughlan. I haven't quite completed my legal reason, sir. I 
just wanted to state that, based upon the reason that the issuance of 
the subpena to me represents, I believe, an invasion of my function 
here as an officer of the court discharging to the best of his ability the 
function which he has sworn by the oath which has already been men- 
tioned here, and the duty which he owes of zealous and warm devotion 
to the cause of his client, that there has definitely been an invasion ; 
that therefore this committee, in recognition of that fact and, if I may 
say so, sir, in recognition of the general situation which exists that I 
mentioned when Mr. Doyle interrupted me, I believe that the subpena 
should be withdrawn and that I should be excused from further testi- 
fying. 

(At this point JMr. Jackson conferred with Mr. Doyle.) 

Mr. Jackson. I have conferred with IMr. Doyle, and it is the unani- 
mous opinion of both members of the subcommittee that the objection 
contrary notwithstanding, the hearing will continue. 

You may proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavexner. When and where were you born, Mr. Caughlan ? 

Mr. Caughlan. I was born in Nevada, Mo., August 25, 1909. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a resident of the city of Seattle ? 

Mr. Caughlan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Hoav long have you resided here ? 

Mr. Caughlan. I don't recall exactly. It has been a long time. I 
went to high school here and college. I was East attending Harvard 
Law School and Yale for a short time, and I have resided here ever 
since. It has been a long time. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a practicing attorney ? 

Mr. Caughlan. Let me see. I think I graduated from law school 
in 1935— probably 1936. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Cauglilan, the committee has information indi- 
cating that you may have special information relating to activities of 
the Communist Party within the area of Seattle. The information 
that the committee has is that wliich you ])robab]y heard duriiijj^ the 
course of these liearings when Mrs. Barbara Ilartle testified, which I 
shall not repeat; and, in addition to that, the committee has received 
the testimony of Elizabeth Boggs Cohen, who testified before this 
committee in Los Angeles, Calif., on May 28, 1954, and during the 
course of her testimony she told the committee that she, herself, had 
become a member of the Communist Party in Seattle in 1936 and had 
continued her membership until 1943, approximately, at which time 
she withdrew from the Communist Party. She advised the committee 
that for a period of about 2 years during her membership, namely, 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6567 

between 1936 and 1938, she was chairman of the King County member- 
ship committee oi the Communist Party in Seattle. She was asked to 
describe activities of the Communist Party and also to advise the com- 
mittee of those with whom she came in contact as Communist Party 
members. She testified, for instance, as to the visit to this community 
of high functionaries of the Communist Party from New York; she 
testified that she had met with members of the district committee of 
the Connnunist Party; she testified as to trade-union members with 
whom she came in contact within the Communist Party. She also 
told the committee of other members, of other persons she met as Com- 
munists, and among them was John Caughlan, attorney. 

Now if the information which the committee has received through 
the witness who has been testifying here this week, Mrs. Barbara 
Hartle, and through Mrs. Elizabeth Boggs Cohen is correct, you are 
in a position indeed to give this committee factual information. 

(At this point Mr. Caughlan conferred with Messrs. Schweppe and 
Burton.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Now that is the basis for my questions. 

I now want to ask you whether or not you have been a member of 
the Communist Party in Seattle ? 

Mr. Caughlan. That is your question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Caughlan. May I confer with counsel for just a moment? 

(At tliis point Mr. Caughlan conferred with Messrs. Schweppe and 
Burton. ) 

Mr. Caughlan. Sir, I want to answer your question by first stating 
my legal objections to the question, ask you to rule upon those, and 
then I will take whatever action may be deemed appropriate. 

May I have the privilege of doing that, sir ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, it has been the practice of this com- 
mittee, as long as I have known anything about it, not to honor objec- 
tions made to questions that are propounded but to require the witness 
to answer or to refuse to answer and, in either course, give him an 
opportunity to explain his testimony. An objection before either of 
those alternatives, it is my suggestion, is out of place. 

Mr. Caughlan. Then may I have the opportunity to state my legal 
objections to that question, upon advising you as to my answer ? 

Mr. Jackson. No. It seems to me, unless Mr. Doyle objects, that we 
are following what has been the standard practice of the committee for 
many years. 

Mr. Caughlan. I will answer and give you my reasons therefor. 

Mr. Jackson. That is the standard procedure ; and, if you will be 
good enough to follow that, I am sure that the committee will be happy 
to hear j^our reasons for so answering. 

Mr. Caughlan. Thank you. I will express my reasons for my 
answer. 

My answer to that question is that I decline to answer upon the fol- 
lowing reasons, which I wish now to state. I wish to state first that 
under the fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United States, in 
being asked that question, I am being denied due process of law. 

The fifth amendment provides that "No person shall be deprived of 
life, liberty, or property without due process of law." 

Now my principal property — that which I value most — is my good 
name and reputation in this community ; it is my chief asset. "Good 



6568 COMJMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

name in man or woman is the immediate jewel of the soul,'' said Shake- 
speare. I could o^o on and complete the quotation — but let it be said 
that ''He who filches from me my good name robs me of that which 
not enricheth him and leaves me poor indeed." 

Now that is the property right of which I am being deprived in the 
following manner : Before this committee, in closed session and in open 
session, persons come and make statements or charges about others — 
in this case about me. This constitutes a deprival of property by de- 
famation ; or, to use a legal term, Mv. Mitchell Franklin of Tulane Law 
School, in a recent article, says, "This is the process of punishment by 
infamy." 

I have been inf amed or defamed before this committee. 

Now it is not a person's right to have a good name, if they do not 
deserve that good name, and there are judicial processes for depriving 
a person of his good name. Those judicial processes are well recog- 
nized and they are set forth, sir, in the sixth amendment to the Consti- 
tution, which I now wish briefly to refer to — paraphrasing it. 

"In all hearings," to paraphrase, "where one's good name is sought 
to be deprived of one, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and 
public hearing by an impartial trier of the fact." 

Gentlemen, I think it needs no comment to say that I am not before 
an impartial body at this time. 

Mr. Jackson. May I say, sir, that you are proceeding to lecture a 
congressional investigating committee upon points of law which might 
be well placed in a courtroom but certainly are not pertinent to this 
committee and the powers under which it operates ? Those powers are 
expressly delegated to the committee, and we at every opportunity state 
over and' over again that this is not a court of law. 

No charge has been made against you by this committee. We are 
attempting only to seek out information from you which you may or 
may not have in your possession. If you do not have it, that is one 
thing ; if you do have it, you may not wish to discuss it. But certainly 
this is not in any way a forum of law. 

(At this point Messrs. Schweppe and Burton conferred with Mr. 
Caughlan.) 

Mr. Jacksoist. This is an investigating committee, charged with very 
definite and specific responsibilities under the law which organized 
it and ]mt it in motion ; and so I do not see that these points of law, as 
interesting as they may be, relate to the functions of a congressional 
committee. 

Mr. Cauoht.an. Sir, I will complete the statement that I made in 
that regard, because I feel that my reasons should apf)ear upon the 
record of this committee. 

Mr. Jackson. Certainly there is no desire on the part of the com- 
mittee to limit your reasons. 

Mr. Caugttt.an. Wlien one is deprived of one's good name — and cer- 
tainly I think there can be no disagreement that there has been defama- 
tion ijefore this committee as far as I am concerned — one should enjoy 
those rights guaranteed in the sixth amendment of cross-examination 
to expose the character of the accusation, tlie right to be lieard before 
an impartial tribunal, and the other rights which one is guaranteed 
before one's property is taken away from him or should be taken away 
from him. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6569 

It is for that reason that I say the asking of that question to me — 
under the circumstances that exist before this committee — the asking 
of that question to me is to deprive me of nw property, and my life, 
or at least all that makes life worth living, without any part of that 
due process of law that one comes to associate with judicial proceedings. 

To complete the reasons that I stated here, this property right is 
the riglit of representation of persons which I, as a lawyer, and duty- 
bound have this charge, but which depends upon my good name and 
reputation. Moreover, my clients have the right to expect of me, as 
an attorney, that the confidences which they have reposed in me will 
be respected and that I will not be taken before some committee and 
compelled to testify concerning the confidences of clients. 

The brmging me before this committee under the circumstances that 
here exist puts my clients in fear — I might add needless fear — in fear 
that they will be deprived of the right of the confidence which they 
have in me. 

Now I want to say that I rely upon that portion of the fifth amend- 
ment, and I do so state. I wish to rely further, sir, upon the rights 
which I believe are guaranteed to me and to every citizen under the 
first amendment to the Constitution of the United States. 

In order that there may be no shadow of doubt as to what I mean 
by those rights, I want to say that I believe that, calling me before 
this committee, I am being deprived of my freedom of speech, asso- 
ciation and assemblage, because the guaranty of the first amendment 
and the way that the first amendment operates is that I have the right, 
if I as an individual wish to exercise it, of believing and expressing 
that belief and associating with others who believe that — for example : 
this committee is a very disgraceful affair — I have the right to believe 
that. 

Now the operation whereby this right is taken away from me or 
the right, for example, to believe anything else I may want to, no 
matter how unpopular, is this : that the operation of this committee 
is as follows: Because the Communist Party may oppose this com- 
mittee — if it does — the McCarthyite committee, if it does — the Jenner 
or Velde committee — if it does ; and because I and I believe thousands 
of others, millions of other decent people do likewise ; if they oppose 
this committee and express that opposition they are stated to be fol- 
lowing the Communist Party line and thus to be tarred with the Com- 
munist brush. 

Just by way of brief illustration, Congressman Scherer pointed 
to a button a witness was wearing, which button said "Joe must go," 
meaning of course McCarthy must go, and Mr. Scherer said, "So long 
as you wear that button and people like you wear that button," mean- 
ing, rather illogically, that such a person was presumed to be a Com- 
munist simply because he relied on the fifth amendment, "So long as 
you and persons like you wear that button, Joe will never go." What 
he meant was that if a Communist or a person charged with being a 
Communist supports a laudable objective that it is unsafe for other 
Americans to support such laudable objectives. 

Gentlemen, I believe that in advancing that philosophy, which is the 
very foundation-stone of this committee, the first amendment is torn 
to shreds and violated. 



48069—54 — pt. 8- 



6570 coMivruNiST activities in the pacific northwest akea 

Mr. Jackson. May I ask you, ]Sfr. Cauorhlan, if Mr. Scherer or any- 
one else has the right to the opinion that he expressed ? 

Mr. Caughlax. Sir, incidentally, I assume that for the moment the 
other question that is before me is withdrawn so that I can answer 
this one. Can I assume that ? 
Mr. Jackson. Yes. 

Mr. Caughlan. Thank you. Mr. Scherer has the riorht, as you 
have the right or anyone else has the right, to express any opinion they 
wish Tinder tlie first amendment. The problem is this : Tliat for you, 
sir, as a representative or as a supposed — as a representative — let us 
leave out anything else — of the Government to come here, as you have 
done, sir, with certain witnesses called before you, and asking them, 
"Now will yon promise never to give any more money to such and such 
a cause?" telling them what they can give monev for: "Will you prom- 
ise never to subscribe to such and such a paper?" telling them 

Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. We never said such a thing, and you 
know it. 

Mr. Jackson. I don't think it appears in the record. 
Mr. Caughlan. I heard the questioning the other day of Mr. Shain 
before this committee. 

Mr, DoYT^E. You never heard us tell him never to give another 

Cent 

Mr. Caughlan. I heard you ask him: "Now have you listened? 
Have you learned your lesson ? Don't give any more money to these 
organizations." And I heard him, in a shocking display, I feel, of the 
loss of human dignity of a human being before this committee — I heard 
him promise in humiliated tones, no, he would never do anything of 
that sort. 

Now if I misheard or misinterpreted what happened, I stand cor- 
rected, but that seemed to me to be what was happening. 

Mr. Jackson. Perhaps, Mr. Caughlan, he sincerely felt regret at 
what he had done. That was my impression. 

Mr. Caughlan. He was compelled to 

Mr. Jackson. I don't believe there was any compulsion on him in 
any regard; I think Mr. Shain was certainly treated with the same 
consideration as he, himself, showed the committee and which, I 
might say, has been the standard practice of the committee, to re]^ay 
courtesy with courtesy, dignity with dignity. I believe that that will 
stand on the record. Certainly those who had an opportunity to view 
these proceedings for a week can come to no other conclusion. We 
have tried to maintain dignity and decorum in this hearing room, 
sometimes under very difficult circumstances. 

However, please proceed with the balance of your statement. 
Mr. Caughlan. I feel that I have completed my answer to your 
question. 

Now do I understand that the other question is still before the com- 
mittee, that is, whether I was a Communist Party member at any 
time, or something of that sort ? I forget. 
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, that is the question. 

Mr. Caughlan. And I was stating my reasons for my declination 
to answer that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. That is right. 

Mr. Caughlan. Now in connection with my reasons, under the first 
amendment — and without referring again to the illustration that I 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6571 

gave a moment ago — let me quote briefly from the opinion of Mr. 
Justice Jackson in a case a few years ago : 

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, 
high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, re- 
ligion, or other matters of opinion, or to force citizens to confess by word or act 
their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, 
they do not now occur to us. 

Now may I say that I believe that in calling me before this com- 
mittee and, having defamed my character, to ask me that question in 
these circumstances, and depending upon my answer, as was illus- 
trated the other day, to make me confess my faith in this or that, is 
certainly a deprivation of my rights under the amendment that I 
have stated. 

Mr. Jackson. Let the record show that the committee is not at- 
tempting to force you to say anything. The committee has asked you 
a question, to which you may answer "Yes" or "No," or to which you 
may decline to answer, as you have already done in this instance. 
There is no effort being made to force you. That is one thing that 
should be very clearly in the record at this time. 

Mr. Caughlan. Sir, I am an attorney myself, well represented by 
able counsel, and I can assure you that I will not be forced or intimi- 
dated. I don't intend to be. 

Mr. Jackson. I can assure you that the committee will make no 
effort to force you. 

Mr. Caughlan. May I continue ? 
Mr. Jackson. May I ask a brief question ? 

Mr. Caughlan. Is the present question withdrawn temporarily, 
while you ask the other ? 

Mr. Jackson. I will withhold my question. 

Mr. Caughlan. Very well. Until this present question is an- 
swered ? I want to complete my answer to the present question. 

Mr. D0YI.E. May I say this, with all due respect to the gentleman 
of the bar? Mr. Chairman, I do not see why we should go so far 
overboard with the gentleman in the matter of time and, merely be- 
cause he is a lawyer, allow him to argue before us things that are not 
material, that are not pertinent to the question asked. I submit that 
the witness ought to be required to be as reasonably brief as all other 
witnesses have been required to be. And I submit that this is some- 
thing that I, as a member of the committee, shall expect. If the gen- 
tleman wants to make a speeeli and argue against the function of the 
committee, let him do it in another tribunal or another place. 
Mr. Caughlan. Is that a challenge? 

Mr. Doyle. It is an invitation 

Mr. Caughlan. I accept. 

]\Ir. DoTLE. To be responsive to the question and not to make a 
brief here. We have other witnesses to hear yet, I think, and I feel 
that you are going outside the issue — and I believe you think you are. 
I don't blame you for wanting to make a record, but don't take undue 
time, please. 

(At this point Mr. Caughlan conferred with Messrs. Schweppe and 
Burton.) 

Mr. Caughlan. Let me make this comment, if I may. T would be 
delighted, just delighted, to accept the challenge to discuss this issue 
at length with you or any other member of the committee and, if that 
is the challenge, I accept. 



6572 COMMUNIST ACT1\"1TIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Jackson. Challenges will be issued and accepted outside the 
hearing. 

Mr. Caughlan. May I complete my reasons ? 

Mr. Jackson. It would be appreciated. 

Mr. Caughlan. I will answer the question, sir. I will have to an- 
swer in my own way ; I will have to state my objections in the manner 
I feel I must, and that I will do now. 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair will bear with you for a short period 
longer. We have a great many more Avitnesses. None of the witnesses 
who have aj^peared have been permitted to expound at such consid- 
erable length. The Chair does not want unduly to cut you off, but I 
wish you would hurry along. 

Mr. Caughlan. Thank you. I next want to state that under the 
fourth amendment, which is very closely related to the first and fifth 
amendments, I believe that this committee's asking me or any other 
witness the question that you have just propounded to me is an in- 
vasion of my rights of privacy and, in effect, an unlawful search and 
seizure. 

I would like in that connection just to read briefly the following 
from an opinion of the Supreme Court 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. The w^itness has stated his legal ground. The matter 
of argument which he is now proposing to make is one that has been 
made before this committee at numerous times. I suggest that the 
witness be limited to the presentation of his points without such 
elaborate argument. 

Mr. Caughlan. Sir, I am not arguing ; I am stating my point. 

Mr. Tavenner. By way of argument. 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair will state now that any material or matter 
which is not directly responsive to the question pending — and, cer- 
tainly, decisions of the Supreme Court I do not believe are, in this 
instance — will not be accepted by the committee and will be stricken 
from the record. 

Mr. Caughlan. Very well. I, nevertheless, because a record is 
being made, will complete, if I may, my answer to the question, stat- 
ing my legal reasons. 

Mr. Jackson. It is now 26 minutes of 4. Will 6 minutes more en- 
able you to state the balance of your constitutional grounds? 

Mr. Caughlan. I can't say. I hope so. 

Mr. Jackson. Well, I will say that in 6 minutes I hope that you 
will have them all in the record. 

Mr. Caughlan. I think if I am uninterrupted, very likely I can 
proceed to state my grounds adequately in that length of time, and I 
will endeavor to do so. 

Mr. Jackson. Thank you. 

Mr. Caughlan. I was just mentioning at the time of the interrup- 
tion that under the fourth amendment one is, it seems to me, protected 
from unlawful inquiries, searches and seizures, and the Supreme Court 
has illustrated that and commented on that in an opinion in Jones 
against the Securities and Exchange Commission, stating the 
following : 

No one can read these two great opinions, 



i 



COIMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6573 

referring to two cases, 

without perceiving how closely allied in principle are the three great protective 
rights of the indivdual : that against compulsory self -accusation ; that against 
unlawful searches and seizures ; and that against unlawful inquisitorial investi- 
gations. They were among the intolerable abuses of the Star Chamber, which 
brought that institution to an end at the hands of the Long Parliament in 1640. 
Even the shortest step in the direction of curtailing one of these rights must be 
halted immediately lest it is served as a precedent for further advances in the 
same direction or for the wrongful invasion of others. 

Now with that statement with respect to the right which a person 
has not to have his privacy, that is, his political views, his opinions, 
his thoughts investigated or inquired into, as I believe is being done 
with me at this time, I wish now to state briefly, by reference — what 
other witnesses have referred to, and then to come to another major 
legal point, and that is the fact that under the ninth and tenth amend- 
ments, it seems to me the rights that this committee is inquiring about, 
as far as I am concerned, are those which are reserved to the States and 
to the people. 

Now, sir, in connection with this question, in prefacing my last 
statement of a legal point, I know that you, gentlemen, know — al- 
though I don't know that everyone knows — that in 1948 I was charged 
before the United States district court in Seattle here with having 
testified falsely in stating that I was not and never had been a member 
of the Communist Party. The indictment alleged that as a false 
statement. I was tried here before an impartial tribunal, an im- 
partial jury. I had the right of cross-examination, and it was exer- 
cised ; and I was acquitted of that charge. 

Now many people don't understand the law but I think I am safe 
in saying that my distinguished counsel will not advise me and do 
not advise me that if I were to answer that same inquiry before this 
tribunal, even though I was acquitted of it in 1948, that the gentle- 
man, Mr. Canwell, who is sitting back there and who was very in- 
strumental in having me tried at that time, together with you gentle- 
men wouldn't seek to renew that same matter and have me tried again 
for that same thing even though I was acquitted of it before. Many 
people do not understand the very serious problems which a witness 
faces before these inquisitorial bodies such as this when questions such 
as this are put before them. 

And when you gentlemen have what seems to me is a violation of 
the ninth commandment in the morning and a violation of the fifth 
amendment in the afternoon — the ninth commandment is "Thou shalt 
not bear false witness against th}^ neighbor" 

Mr. Jackson. You are not accusing the committee of bearing wit- 
ness in any respect, are you ? 

Mr. Caughlan. No. It does seem to me, if I can put it this way, 
that that is violated — or during the week, in the morning, and in the 
afternoon we have the fifth amendment violated, and which seems 
to me a further violation of due process. It seems to me it is a viola- 
tion of due process when a witness exercises a privilege and, as one 
court said, a duty under the Constitution that this committee badgers 
that witness and says, "If you weren't guilty, you wouldn't be claim- 
ing that privilege," "If you weren't a member of the Communist 
Party, you woldn't be claiming that privilege," which the members 
■of this conmiittee know is not the law. And thus I say, in the morn- 



6574 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

ing tlie niiitli commandment is violated; in the afternoon the fifth 
amendment is violated. 

Now what is the fifth amendment? Because I am going to rely 

upon 

Mr. Jackson. You have 1 minute left. 

Mr. Caughlan. Sir, I am going to state my legal reasons, as best I 
may. 

Mr. Jackson. That is quite all right, but it is going to be necessary 
to state them quite rapidly, because the time was set by the Chair 
and the Chair intends to exercise the authority of the Chair when 
that time has arrived. 

Mr. Caughlan. As I have indicated, the statement which has been 
made here, which has been repeated by this witness, without any right 
of cross-examination on my part, is followed, and has been with other 
witnesses who have claimed their rights, with the statement, "Well, 
sir, you can't possibly need to invoke the fifth amendment if you 
aren't a Communist. You can't possibly need to invoke the fifth 
amendment if you are not guilty of some crime." 

In conclusion, in stating this point — I mentioned earlier that I am 
a graduate of Harvard Law School, of which I am very proud — I 
want to refer to an article, which I know, from the questions that have 
been asked witnesses, has been read and studied by this committee and 
counsel, by Dean ErAvin R. Griswold, dean of the Harvard Law School. 

Mr. Jackson. The article is not in my opinion responsive to the 
question which is pending, to which an answer has been declined, and 
since what I believe has been a reasonable period of time, sometliing 
over a half hour, has elapsed, the Chair is going to insist that if there 
are any more constitutional reasons that you wish to advance, they 
should be advanced briefly at this time and consisting of only con- 
stitutional reasons. 

Mr. Caughlan. There are indeed, and I now refer to the matter 
wdiich, as I saw, was discussed by Dean Griswold in the article I 
referred to. 

Mr. Jackson. What is the amendment you are invoking ? 

Mr. Caughlan. Do you want to hear the name of the article? It 
is entitled "Fifth Amendment," by Dean Griswold of the Harvard 
Law School. 

Mr. Jackson. That is most interesting, but I do wish you would in- 
voke any other constitutional amendment that you wisli to invoke. 

Mr. Doyle. I am sure that we are familiar with that article. 

Mr. Caughlan. I want to state clearly before this committee that I 
rely, without the least apology, upon the following section of the fifth 
amendment. I referred to another section. I am now going to read 
the other section that I rely upon. 

I rely upon the following section of the fifth amendment: "No wit- 
ness shall be compelled in any criminal case to be — " "No person shall 
be compelled to be a witness against himself." 

I have stated, sir, the jeo])ardy in which you seek to place me. I 
rely upon that right which I have, and I affirm it proudly. 

]\rr. Jackson. Very well. You need make no apology for its use. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Caugih.an. Well, there are quite a few answers I have just 
given. I don't want to state them all over again. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6575 

Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee is satisfied to receive an answer to 
the effect that you refuse to answer upon the same ground. 

Mr. Caughlax. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Then I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. In view of the <>entleman's statement about this com- 
mittee being unconstitutional, following unconstitutional practices 
and interfering with his property rights, inasmuch as this is not a 
court, as the gentleman knows, I want to again call attention to Public 
Law 601, and I want to read the first paragraph, Mr. Chairman, so 
that those liere and those having heard the gentleman's statement will 
again have this information. 

This committee operates under Public Law 601 passed in the 79th 
Congress, which time and time and time again has been held constitu- 
tional by the highest courts in our land. It states : 

The committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, is 
authorized to make from time to time investigations of the extent, character and 
the objectives of un-American propaganda activities in the United States * * * 
aid Congress in any necessary remedial legislation. 

Now that is the burden of Public Law 601, under which this com- 
mittee is here, and we are here solely for the purpose of investigating 
the extent to which subversive activities have infiltrated any level, 
experienced in the Pacific Northwest area. 

The reason we are calling so many people this time and asking them 
if they are members of the Communist Party is that the Comnnmist 
Party of the United States was declared subversive as far back as 
December 4, 1947, and at all times since by agencies of the United 
States Government, including this connnittee, has been so declared. 
We have declared and our record shows that the Communist Party of 
the United States from its inception has been a subversive organiza- 
tion. By "subversive," we mean that our record shows and all (xovern- 
ment records show that the Connnunist Party in the United States is 
an organization that believes in, advises, advocates and teaches the 
overthrow by force and violence of the Government of the LTnited 
States — as the gentleman well knows. 

(At this point Mr. Caughlan conferred with Messrs. Schweppe and 
Burton.) 

Mr. Doyle. May I again say this for the record ? 

If it so happens that the reputation or good will which a person 
holds in a community is injured by reason of that person being sub- 
penaed to come before this committee, then that is always regi-ettalde, 
and every member of this committee regrets any such injiu-y or any 
such damage, if it results. But, as I understand the record, Mr. Attor- 
ney, you were identified under oath by two admitted high function- 
aries of the Communist Party in the LTnited States in this very area. 
Knowing this, we couldn't very well overlook you, when you have been 
identified by two persons under oath, just because you are an attorney. 

We have no choice under our j^rocedure. Our assignment is to inves- 
tigate subversive activities in the United States, wherever and when- 
ever we have reasonable belief to believe that they exist. Therefore, 
when we subpenaed you just like any other person, we did it because 
we believed we had substantial evidence, uncontroverted up until that 
time, of the fact that these people believed under oath 



6576 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

(At this point Mr. Caughlan conferred with Messrs. Schweppe and 
Burton.) 

Mr. Doyle. That you were a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Caughlan. Hardly uncontroverted. 

Mr. Doyle. And they so swore. 

Mr. Caughlan. Hardly uncontroverted. After all, the verdict of a 
jury is about as <iood evidence as you could get. 

Mr. Doyle. We are not a jury, but we were assigned by your Con- 
gress to come here and question people about what they knew about 
subversive activities in the Pacific Northwest; and we subpenaed you, 
3'ou having been identified by at least two people under oath who were 
admittedly high functionaries of the Communist Party in the North- 
west. 

May I also say this, which I have stated frequently in these hear- 
ings and otherwise? In my book, no inference is to be drawn because 
a witness before this committee uses the fifth amendment or any other 
constitutional defense. 

Mr. Caughlan. May I make one comment, Congressman — briefly ? 

Mr. DoTLE. May I say that I just don't understand why any mem- 
ber of the American bar ever joins the Communist Party in the first 
place, and I don't understand yet why any member of the American 
bar who has ever joined the Communist Party of the United States for 
any motive — whatever his motive was originally— I just don't under- 
stand why the few members of the bar that I have questioned or who 
have set before us, over the country, when they are given the oppor- 
tunity to help uncover the known subversive Communist conspiracy 
why they don't come and help their Government, without so many of 
them using their constitutional privileges. Because, as I regard it, 
their duty to their Government and to their oath comes first and, know- 
ing that certain members of the bar must know about the Communist 
conspiracy, which has been so declared by our Government, I just don't 
see why so many members of the bar refuse to help. 

(At this point Mr. Caughlan conferred with Messrs. Schweppe and 
Burton.) 

Mr. Doyle. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Caughlan. Could I — just a moment 

Mr. Doyle. I have one further statement. I want this clear, because 
you emphasized it. 

And I think, Mr. Chairman, it is the first time in these hearings that 
this point has been raised, and I made a note of it. 

I recognize, of course, that you, as a lawyer, are making a record 
in opposition to the force of your subpena, and therefore I recognize 
why you joined in the argument and said that clients have a right to 
believe that their confidential relationship will not be invaded. Now 
may I say to you, sir, you certainly know that this committee would 
never directly or indirectly ask you, even if you waived your consti- 
tutional privilege, to reveal any confidential relationship that ex- 
isted between you and any client. You know that, I hope. 

Mr. Caughlan. Is that a question? I will answer that. 

Sir, it is certainly true that no lawyer who respected his oath could 
violate the confidence of a client, but I want to point out that what 
has happened here is this : This committee, with knowledge that I was 
acquitted of the charge that you have again publicly made against 
me 



J 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6577 

Mr, Jackson. Just a moment. 

Mr. Caughlan. Wants to put 

Mr. Jackson. Just a moment. The committee has made no charge 
against you. Let the record show that positively, once and for all — 
no charge. 

Mr. Caughlan. You called the witness and you had the witness 
testify • 

Mr. Jackson. The witness has made certain allegations in the course 
of her voluntary testimony under oath. 

Mr. Caughlan. Over television — in response to questions, 

Mr. Jackson. The committee has yet to make any charge against 

yon. 

Mr. Caughlan. You procured a public defamation of me. 

What I am pointing out is this : 

(At this point Messrs. Schweppe and Burton conferred with Mr. 
Caughlan.) 

Mr, Caughlan, You are laying a foundation for a charge, which 
I must say seems to me to be one which you would like to bring against 
me. And the fifth amendment protects persons, not because they are 
g;uilty, but because some hostile political group 

Mr. Doyle, No. No. 

Mr. Caughlan. May seek to prosecute them, though they are abso- 
lutely innocent. 

Mr. Doyle. May I say to the gentleman — we are not laying the 
foundation for any kind of prosecution, and I think the gentleman 
knows that. 

And I add, in good faith, sir, our function is not to lay a foundation 
for prosecution but to uncover at any level, whether in law, in edu- 
cation, in religion, in labor 

( At this point Mr. Caughlan conferred with Messrs, Schweppe and 
Burton. ) 

Mr. Doyle. Or any place else; it is to uncover the extent of sub- 
versive activities in the United States, and you happen to be one of the 
persons who was identified. According to witnesses under oath, you 
are one of the American citizens who, it has been testified, knows con- 
siderable about the functioning of the Communist Party in the North- 
west. We are not laying the groundwork for you to be prosecuted, 
and you know that. 

Mr. Caughlan. I already answered the question before a jury, sir, 
and let me say 

Mr, Doyle, We have no connection with prosecutions. You know 
that. 

Mr. Caughlan. Let me say this. 

Mr. Jackson. There is no particular point in laboring this point 
any further. We have additional witnesses and a very short ]:)eriod 
of time in which to conclude these hearings today. 

Do you have anything further, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I think not, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. If not, the witness is excused from further attendance 
under the subpena. 

Thanks is again extended to the Seattle Bar Association for their 
help and representation during the course of these hearings and I 
would appreciate it if that expression is conveyed to the members of 
the Seattle bar, 

48069—54 — pt. 8 6 



6578 COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr, Jackson. Call your next witness, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Karley Larsen. 

TESTIMONY OF KARLEY LARSEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

JOHN F. WALTHEW 

Mr. Jackson. In the testimony that you are about to give before- 
this subcommittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Larsen. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Larsen. Karley Larsen, K-a-r-1-e-y L-a-r-s-e-n. 

Mr. Tavenner. It it noted that you are accompanied by counsel. 
Will counsel please identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. Walthew. John F. Walthew of the Seattle bar. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Larsen ? 

Mr. Larsen. I was born at a place called Skjellerup, Denmark — 
and I don't know how to spell that. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ? 

Mr. Larsen. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you naturalized? 

Mr. Larsen. I was naturalized through my father on April 14,, 
1921 , in the city of Everett. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. Larsen. East Stan wood. Route 1. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is that in the vicinity of Everett ? 

Mr. Larsen. Approximately 20 or 22 miles from Everett. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived there ? 

Mr. Larsen. Some 44 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the commitee, please, briefly, what 
your formal educational training has been ? 

Mr. Larsen. Just through the eighth grade. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your present occupation ? 
: Mr. Larsen. I am a head loader in the lumber industry. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you worked in the lumber industry? 

Mr. Larsen. Well, recently, I have only been back there 6 days — 
since the trial of last year. I started last week. Prior to that time 
I put in some 20 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time did you occupy any 
position of prominence in the union, working within that industry? 

Mr. Larsen. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Tavenner. TNHiat was the name of the union ? 

Mr. Larsen. International Woodworkers of America. I might 
state that originally we organized into the American Federation of 
Labor, the Carpenters and Joiners; in 1935 and 1937 a big section 
of our industry transferred into the International Woodworkers of 
America, CIO. 

Mr. Tavenner. What positions have you held within your union, 
that is, within your local ? 

Mr. Larsen. I think the only position that I held in the local union 
was business agent. Now I may be wrong; I may have held some 
ether minor position — but I believe business agent is the only one. 



J 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6579 

Mr. Tavenner. I don't know whether you intended it, but it sounded 
as though you were speaking of business agent in a disparaging 
manner. 

Mr. Larsen. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Actually, a business agent is the most important 
man in a local union, is he not? 

Mr. Larsen. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. Far more important than the president of a local 

union? 

Mr. Larsen. It could be possible that I held one of the other posi- 
tions, but I don't recall. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you held any position within the national or- 
ganization of your union ? 

Mr. Larsen. Well, in 1938 I was elected president of what is known 
as district No. 2, International Woodworkers of America. 

Mr. Tavenner. "V^Hiat area does district No. 2 include ? 

Mr. Larsen. It covers everything from — or I should say it did 
cover the area from the Canadian border down below Olympia, Wash, 
and to the Kange of the Cascades. 

Mr. Tavenner. Over how long a period of time did you hold a 
district office ? 

Mr. Larsen. I ran for reelection each year from then up until the 
fall of 1945. At that time I ran for the position of first international 
vice president of the parent organization. 

Mr. Tavenner. WTiat year was that ? 

Mr. Larsen. That was in the fall of 1945. I took office in January 
1946. 

Mr. Tavenner. And you were elected as an international vice 
president? 

Mr. Larsen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavgenner. How long did you hold the international office? 

Mr. Larsen. It was a 2-year term that the international officers 
were elected to. 

Following the convention in 1947 — I believe in October — they de- 
cided to comply with the Taft-Hartley Act, and I chose not to and re- 
signed the position of international vice president. 

Following that, I came home, and I believe I more or less laid around 
for several months, and for a short period I believe I went back as 
an organizer in district No. 2. 

In the summer of 1948 I ran for reelection as president in district 
No. 2 and was reelected. 

Mr. Tavenner. As president of district No. 2, were you required, 
under the law, to sign the Taft-Hartley affidavit ? 

Mr. Larsen. No, sir; we were not. The issue arose in 1951 over 
some case back East — I don't recall which. At that time our district 
decided to comply with the Taft-Hartley Act. On August 3, 1951, 1 
signed the anti-Communist affidavit. 

In the year 1952, district No. 2 and what is known as district No. 3 
of the International Woodworkers of America, which was the district 
south of us from Olympia to the Columbia River, merged into one 
combined district council, and at that time I ran for the position of 
first vice president, was elected, and held that position up until 1953, 
when I was removed from office by a convention during the Smith 
Act trial — not by the membership of my union. 



6580 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Now you have spoken of the Smith Act trial. You 
were speaking of the trials that took place here in Seattle, were you 
not? 

Mr. Larsen". That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenneb. When did the trials begin ? 

Mr. Larsen. I believe it was April 14 or 15. 

Mr. Tavenxer. And do vou recall the date of vour indictment? 

Mr. Larsen. September 17, 1952. 

I should say — I think that is incorrect. I think I was arrested on 
September 17 and it seems to me the indictment was September 24. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe you were acquitted in the trial of that 
case, were you not ? 

Mr. Larsen. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you testify in your own behalf ? 

]Mr. Larsen. No, sir ; I did not. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you represented by counsel during the trial? 

Mr. Larsen. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Tavenner. "VVlio was the counsel who represented you? 

Mr. Larsen. Mr. John Walthew, the same counsel I have with me 
today. 

Mr. Tavenner. He was your counsel during the trial of the case? 

Mr. Larsen. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. During all of the trial of the case, from beginning 
to end? 

Mr. Larsen. That is correct. 

Mr. TA^^NNER. Did he make an opening statement in your behalf 
before the court and the jury ? 

Mr. Larsen. Yes, he did. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall during the course of that opening 
statement that counsel, acting in your behalf, stated to the court and 
the jury the following — I quote from page 1294 of the transcript of 
the record of the trial of the United States of America^ Plaintiff, v. 
Henry P. Huff and others, No. 48563 : 

I propose in this opening statement to outline for you some things that the 
evidence will show very definitely and propose to tell you when Karley Larsen 
joined the Communist Party of the United States and why he joined that party, 
because he did — he joined it many years before, apparently, than was outlined 
to you the other day, that it was in late 1939. It wasn't; it was early in the 
1930's that he joined the Communist Party of the United States, and I propose 
to tell you why he joined that party. 

Do you recall that statement having been made in your behalf? 

Mr. Larsen. I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall also that during the course of the 
opening statement made by your counsel in your behalf that this 
language was used, and I quote from page 1309 of the same transcript : 

Now please let me stress one thing: When Karley Larsen joined the Communist 
Party in 1933 he didn't change ; he was the same man ; he had the same ideas ; 
he had the same aims and objectives on the day before he joined as he had the 
day after he joined. And at all times he did not change at all ; he advocated 
the same things. And after he left the Communist Party in 1946 he again did 
not change one whit or jot ; he was the same man he had been before and he con- 
tinued to stand for and against the same things that he had while he was a 
member during those years 1933-46. 

Do you recall that statement? 
Mr. Larsen. I do. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6581 

Mr. Tavenner. You authorized your counsel to make that statement 
in your behalf, didn't you ? 

Mr.LARSEN. Well, 1 would say that I don't know as he was quoting 
me. I authorized the substance of the statement and the words are 

Mr. Tavenner. Are his ? 

Mr. Larsen. His words. 

Mr. Tavenner. But the statement is the truth, is it not, that you 
were a member of the Communist Party from 1933 to 1946? 

Mr. Larsen. I joined the Communist Party in either the late fall 
of 1933 or the early spring of 1934. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Larsen. Until 1944, I believe. My dates may not be exactly 
correct, but up until the time they dissolved the Communist Party and 
establislied the Communist Political Association. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you become a member of the Communist Politi- 
cal Association? 

Mr.LARSEN. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Did you rejoin the Communist Party or reaffiliate 
with it when it was reconstituted in 1945 ? 

Mr. Larsen. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Tavenner. And did you remain as a member, at least through 
1946? 

Mr. Larsen. Mr. Chairman, it was always my understanding dur- 
the years that I was in the Communist Party that in order to main- 
tain membership you had to pay dues, you had to attend meetings and 
carry out some of the decisions that was made within the framework 
of the organization in which you participated. 

In January 1946, I went to Portland, and I traveled the United 
States and Canada for 2 years, and I doubt that I was — this is without 
being specific — that I was in Seattle over five or six times during that 
whole period and did not participate — did not meet, did not partici- 
pate in carrying out any of the decisions here and did not consider my- 
self what I understand as a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Ta\tsnner. That was between 1946 and 1948 ? 

Mr. Larsen. That is correct— until the fall of 1947. 

Mr. Tavenner. At what time in 1948 would you place that break- 
ing off period ? 

Mr. Larsen. Well, I came back here in the fall of 1947. 

Mr. Tavenner. Then you would say because you had been away for 
a period of time and worked for the district 

Mr. Larsen. For the international. 

Mr. Ta\-enner. For the international organization of which you 
were a member, 3'ou were not in actual attendance locally at Com- 
munist Party meetings between 1946 and when you returned in 1947 ? 

Mr. Larsen. It was impossible. 

Mr. Tavenner. That was while you were with the International 
Woodworkers of America organization. 

Now when you returned in 1947, did you continue in your Com- 
munist Party activities? 

Mr. Larsen. I would say I believe it was in the fall of 1948, without 
having attended any convention in 1948, contrary to what I gather is 
some statements that have been made, I made it known to Mr. Henry 
Huff that because of the circumstances in the union it was impossible 



6582 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

to continue, if they felt or considered myself a member of the Com- 
munist Party — my membership as far as the Communist Party was 
concerned — and they were to consider, if they had not already done so, 
that I was not a member of the Communist Party. And I believe that 
was in the fall of 1948. 

Now I might state that I have been working and was not here until 
Wednesday, so I did not hear what Barbara Hartle had to say, but 
other than I read in the newspaper. 

Some of the statements she made were also charged against me by 
individuals in the trial. I was not at the 1948 convention ; I was not 
at the 1950 convention of the Communist Party. There were two wit- 
nesses in the Smith Act trial that were present that confessed to the 
very same statements she made. I have never been notified that I was 
ever elected to any committee in the 1950 convention. 

During the period that I was in the Communist Party, outside of 
the first very short period, my associations were with the top leader- 
ship of the Communist Party over a period of many years, which in- 
cluded Mr. Rappaport, a Mr. Jackson at that time — I forget what his 
first name was — Mr. Frankfeld 

Mr.TAVENNER. That is Phil Frankfeld? 

Mr. Larsen. Phil Frankfeld. AMr. Remes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Andy Remes? 

Mr. Larsen. Andy Remes. A Mr. Alexander. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is that Ed Alexander ? 

Mr. Larsen. Ed Alexander, his wife. Mr. Huff. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is his first name ? 

Mr. Larsen. Henry. His wife. Van Lydegraf. 

Mr.TAVENNER. What is his first name ? Clayton? 

Mr. Larsen. I think it is. I don't think of any more right offhand. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now you made a statement that you understood that 
Mrs. Hartle testified here that you had attended a convention. My 
recollection of her testimony is that she stated that you were elected 
to the convention under the name Wood, in order to conceal your true 
identity, and at the time she was elected as a delegate to the same con- 
vention under the name "Waitress," in order to conceal her identity. 
Is that true ? 

Mr. Larsen. My understanding of what she said — and I would like 
to be clear on it — my understanding was that she had said that I was 
elected to a district committee. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am mistaken. This was action taken at the con- 
vention electing you under the name of Wood to membership on the 
district 

Mr. Larsen. Committee. 

Mr. Tavenner (continuing). Committee, in order to conceal your 
identity, and the election of herself under the name of "Waitress" in 
order to conceal her identity, and that neither you nor she were present 
at the convention. 

Mr. Larsen. That is my understanding. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Well, were you so elected ? 

Mr. Larsen. Not to my knowledge, and never served. And it was 
testified by two witnesses in the Smith Act trial that were present that 
that was not a fact. Tliat is a matter of record. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you use a name in the Communist Party other 
than your own name ? 



J 



■COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6583 

Mr. Larsen. I have never used in my life any other name than my 
original name that I go by, under no circumstances. 

I might state that people have referred to me as "Snoos," which has 
Ibeen somewhat customary because of the fact I chew Copenhagen. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am speaking of the use of a name in the Com- 
munist Party as a designation for you and not a nickname. 

Mr. Larsen. No, sir. I have never used any other name than my 
own. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the period of time in the Communist 
Party that a plan was adopted to send certain of its members under- 
ground in order that they may be available as a second string list of 
officers in the event of arrests of the first string or the first team ? 

Mr. Larsen. I don't recall that while I was there ; no, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Hartle testified that she was sent underground 
for that purpose in July of 1950 and that on one occasion she took a 
trip and met you — I think it was in December of 1950 — and she dis- 
cussed in an automobile, in a car. Communist Party matters with you. 
Is that true ? 

Mr. Larsen. I have no recollection of ever meeting Barbara Hartle 
in my car or anyone else's car in any such meeting in 1950 ; and I think 
she is off just as far when she makes that statement as when she stated 
this morning that I had become an international officer in 1948 — she 
was off 2 years then. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, maybe Mrs. Hartle was off a period of days 
or weeks or even months as to the time of her meeting with you, which 
she described in December 1950. 

Did you meet with her in 1951 and discuss Communist Party 
matters ? 

Mr. Larsen. Not to my recollection ; no, sir. I don't think in 19 — I 
don't even recall seeing Barbara around the country here from 1950 
or somewhere thereabouts. 

Mr. Tavenner. Why ? Do you know ? 

Mr. Larsen. I have an idea she has pretty well answered it herself. 
I wasn't in contact with her. 

Mr. Tavenner. She was sent underground. You knew that at the 
time, didn't you ? 

Mr. Larsen. I could only surmise it, sir. I didn't know where she 
was. 

Mr. Tavenner. No, but you knew she had been sent underground 
and that her identity and the place of residence was a secret ? 

Mr. Larsen. I didn't know any more about it than probably you 
did, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. And while she was so acting in that underground 
capacity, she came to see you on Communist Party matters? 

Mr. Larsen. No, sir ; she did not, not to my recollection. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now Mrs. Hartle has testified that you were the 
most prominent person within the Communist Party within the field 
of lumber and that it was your responsibility to carry out the Com- 
munist Party program within the field of lumber. If that statement 
is true, you should be in a position to give this committee considerable 
information. 

First let me ask : Do you recall meeting in Communist Party meet- 
ings, in which you discussed with other Communist Party members 



6584 COMMUNIST ACTR'ITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

the program or plan that the Communist Party should adopt or should 
endeavor to execute within the field of lumber ? 

Mr. Larsen. I wouldn't say that I didn't discuss it. I don't recall 
any meeting — Communist Party meeting where such a thing was dis- 
cussed. I want that clearly understood — that during all these years 
that I was active or as a member of the Communist Party that in 
traveling all around that it was the top leadership of the Communist 
Party that I met with, it was through them I paid my dues, and that 
was my relationship with the Communist Party. 

Mr, Tavenner. All right. Now what was the objective of the Com- 
munist Party within the field of lumber? Wliat was it endeavoring 
to do ? 

INIr. Larsex. Well, without detail, I would say. No. 1, gain some 
members in there and, No. 2, to attempt to get the labor movement to 
accept its policies and its objectives. 

Mr. Tavenner. To get the labor unions to accept the Communist 
policies and objectives. 

Now how did you go about securing that type of action from labor- 
union members? 

Mr. Larsen. Well, I should say this : There apparently is some dif- 
ference over what kind of a job I done and what kind of a job I didn't 
do. 

Mr. Taatrnner. Let us have your version of it. 

Mr. Larsen. The Government contended in the Smith Act trial — 
and I have understood by listening here — that the Communist Party 
advocates strife and turmoil and dissatisfaction. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am not asking you what somebod}^ else said or 
what the Government did. I am asking you now, What action did the 
Comminiist Party take within the field of lumber to get the member- 
ship of the locals to adopt the Communist policies? 

Mr. Larsen. I can only state specifically what I done first. I recom- 
mended to the membersliip eveiy 80 days in writing 

yir. Taat;nner. Membership of what ? 

Mr. Larsen. Of our district council, in writing 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Of your union ? 

Mr. Larsen. Of our union — a written report which was verbatim, 
every 30 days, from 19.38 to 1950, 1 believe. In 1950 I made it every 60 
days until I left, and that report was based upon my own judgment 
in consultation with the membership of my union, irrespective of what 
the Communist Party had said or done. If they had suggested sug- 
gestions that were good, that I tliouglit were good, I would accept 
them ; if I thought they were bad, I didn't accept them. 

And according to the testimony in the Smith Act trial and by some 
11 witnesses, including 2 large employers 

INfr. Tavenner. I am sorry, I didn't hear that. 

Mr. Larsen. I say the testimony of some, I believe, 11 witnesses in 
the Smith Act trial, including 2 of the largest representatives of the 
largest employeis in the State of Washington, still undisputed by the 
Govenunent. testified tliat for some 11 years we never had a basic strike 
in district No. 2 and that I lent my hand to prevent turmoil and dis- 
satisfaction and we made a gain around the conference table every 
year. 

Now it was at least mj'^ reaction by others in that trial that that was 
quite contrary to Communist Party policy. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6585 

Mr, Ta^-exxer. But what was the policy of the Communist Party 
tlien to which this was contrary, as you observed them and Ivnew them 
as a Communist Party member ? 

Mr. Larsen. I thought at that time I was carrying tliem out. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Did you find out anything different ? 

Mr. Larsen. In the Smith Act trial, when they got through the 
Smith Act trial, I concluded that I hadn't been carrying them out 
at all. 

Mr. Tavenner, ^Vell, what policies did you observe that the Com- 
munist Party had when you were a member, and what strategy did it 
use in order to engraft its policy upon your local union ? 

Mr. Larsen. Well, I think, as to my knowledge, like any other or- 
o'anization, they would either meet with its members and suggest ob- 
jectives and raise them before the rank and file of the labor union. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did it include such matters as the election of the 
officers of the union; that is, to see that the officers who were elected 
by the union happened to be members of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Larsen. In some cases, very possibly so. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, it happened in your case ; didn't it ? 

Mr. Larsen. Well, the record shows that well over 50 percent of the 
officers of our whole district council executive board, local unions, ac- 
cording to the testimony in the trial up there w^ere non-Communist —  
at least they testified. 

Mr. Tavenner. How many were Communists, to your knowledge? 

Mr. Larsen. In our district ? 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Yes, in your local. 

Mr, Larsen. Well, sometime in 1936 was the last I have been asso- 
ciated directly with my local union. I have been throughout the dis- 
trict all these 3^ears. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now there was a meeting that was testified to in the 
Smith Act case as having occurred at the Wood Hotel, in which it was 
testified that you were present and you discussed how to get mem- 
bers, woodworkers, into the IWA and other unions, and that the lead- 
ers in the Communist Party should stay, as it was said, and should 
hold some office in the union and should recruit new members when 
possible. That seems to have been the subject of your discussion. 

Mr. Larsen. I recall the statement by some witness in the trial. 
The statement sounds very unrealistic for me to make, because con- 
trary to just that was the case. 

Mr. Tavenner. You did not work for the election of Communist 
Party members as officers of the local ? 

Mr. Larsen. I would say — and the record — so it is there. It is not 
a question — we don't need to argue about it; it is a matter of fact 
that a big majority of the officers of the local unions and executive 
board in district 2 were persons that were outspoken anti-Communists. 
They spoke so and helped with my election, 

Mr. Tavenner, I understood from Mrs. Hartle that as the time 
went on, the efforts of the Communist Party became less and less suc- 
cessful. At this moment I am not talking about the degree of success 
or failure; I am talking about the plan of the Communist Party. 

Let us try to go back in review for just a moment. I was trying 
to ascertain from you what the Communist Party purpose was in the 
field of lumber. You said this much — you said, "To recruit members 



6586 COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

into tlie Communist Party from the labor union." You said that. 
And you said, "To get the habor unions to follow the policy of the 
Communist Party." You said that, didn't you ? 

Now I am asking you, wasn't it also to get their own members, that 
is, Communist Party members, elected as officers of the union in order 
also to carry on more easily the policies of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Larsen. Well, I think I answered, sir, that in some cases that 
was the case. That is true. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. That is what they tried to do, isn't it ? 
Mr. Larsen. In some cases. 

Mr. Tavenner. In some cases they failed, in some cases they suc- 
ceeded, but that was their purpose, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Larsen. I think it would be unfair to say that they tried to 
fill all the offices. I think that would be an unfair statement. 

Mr. Tavenner. I didn't say anything about all the offices. But 
wasn't it the purpose of the Communist Party to be so strong within 
your union that it could dominate its actions? Wasn't that what it 
was trying to do ? 

Mr. Larsen. That is a rather hard question to answer. To my 
knowledge, I had no experiences where they, as such, were attempting 
to dominate. There were times we had differences of opinion and some 
sharp — and we went to the district executive board, and that is where 
our decisions were made. 

(At this point Mr. Jackson left the hearing room.) 
Mr. Tavenner. "Wlio do you mean by "we went to the executive 
board"? 

Mr, Larsen. I should rather say I went to the executive board. I 
think the word "we" is incorrect. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now you said in that connection that you worked 
with the higher echelons of the Communist Party, did you not ? 
Mr. Larsen. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. So you worked out a plan between the higher ech- 
elons of the Communist Party and the executive board of your union ? 
Mr. Larsen. No, I would say that is incorrect. 
Mr. Tavenner. Well, let us understand it. 

Mr. Larsen. I met with the top officers of the Communist Party 
and sometimes they were frequent and sometimes they were very in- 
frequent ; it all depends on where I was at. And they suggested to me 
their opinions and ideas as to many of the problems of the day. Many 
of them I accepted, went and recommended to the executive board of 
my union ; some I didn't. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you requested from time to time, as one of 
the leading officials — the business agent of your local — to procure the 
adoption in your local union of certain resolutions in which the Com- 
munist Party was interested ? 

Mr. Larsen. I would say it would be a fair statement to say that at 
times they had objectives which they desired to — thought beneficial, 
at least in their opinion, and urged us to attempt to get them concurred 
in. T think that is a fair statement. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you come to the conclusion that the Commu- 
nist Party, in its desire to get the adoption of such resolutions, always 
supported plans or resolutions which were partial to the Soviet Union, 
■where there might have been a conflict between the Soviet Union 
and the United States in those policies ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6587 

Mr. Larsen. Generally speaking, I think it is a publicly, at least, 
acknowledged position that the Communist Party feels that the policy 
and program of the Soviet Union is a correct one. I think we 
needn't 

Mr. Tavenner.' I am trying to see what the Communist Party was 
doing in your local union, because there you were, holding the prin- 
cipal office in your local union, that of business agent, and at the same 
time we understand from Mrs. Hartle that you had the chief re- 
sponsibility among the Communists for the propagation of the Com- 
munist objectives, whatever they were, into your union. There 
couldn't have been a more perfect setup, could there ? 

Mr. Larsen. Well, it is obvious, very obvious, that the policies and 
program that the Communist Party advocated, as far as my union 
was concerned — and I am referring now to our district, while I was 
there — was basically based upon economic questions of the day, and 
in the main the record so shows. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe about as far as I can go at this time is to 
ask you now 1 or 2 questions, which you can answer very easily and 
very sirnply. 

Were you a member of the Communist Party at any time after 
January 1, 1948? 

Or — excuse me. I believe you stated that it was stated in the trial 
that you were a member of the party between 1933 and 1946. Now 
my question is whether or not you were a member at any time after 
January 1,1946? 

Mr. Larsen. I would say I did not consider myself a member be- 
cause of the circumstances I cited. I would say that there is no rea- 
son for, at least, their books to show, which I have never seen in my 
life--|-any records of any kind there from the fall of 1948 — if they 
carried me during the period that I was away. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am asking you if you were a member at any time 
after 1946? 

Mr. Larsen. Not to my knoAvledge. 

Mr. Tavenner. Not to your knowledge ? 

Mr. Larsen. No. 

(At this point Mr. Jackson returned to the hearing room.) 
_ Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend Communist Party meetings at any 
time after January 1, 1946 ? 

Mr. Larsen. If the meeting were the officers — some of the officers 
is considered a meeting, I would have to say yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. I think that would be the most important type of 
a meeting. 

Mr. Larsen. Not necessarily. There was times that, living in 
Seattle, I would meet Henry Huff and we would have a cup of coffee, 
or I would meet Henry Huff and Van Lydegraf and we would have a 
cup of coffee. I didn't consider that a Communist Party meeting any 
more than if I met a Democrat leader on the street. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you accept directions from the Communist 
Party at any time after January 1, 1946 ? 

Mr. Larsen. I would say no. 
_ Mr. Tavenner. Did you participate in any Communist Party deci- 
sions after January 1, 1946 ? 

Mr. Larsen. Not in any official way. 

Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by that ? 



6588 CO.MMUXIST ACTIVITIES IX THE PACIFIC XORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Larsen. By participation in a convention or in official nieetinjjs 
of a district committee or the likes of that. That is what I have ref- 
erence to. 

Mr, Tavenner. Have you paid any Communist Party dues since 
January 1,1946? 

Mr. Larsex. Not to my knowledjje. I had made some contributions. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Have 3^ou paid any dues since January 1, 1946? 

Mr. Larsex. No. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Have you had a Communist Party card at any time 
since January 1, 1946? 

Mr. Larsex. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Or have you registered in the Communist Party 
at any time since 1946 ? 

Mr. Larsex. Not unless — I am sure that I registered in 1945, in the 
fall or summer when that convention was held. Now that registra- 
tion card, I assume, would run over until probeblj^ the following year. 
But that would be the last one. 

INIr. Ta\^xxer. There was no other ? 

Mr. Larsex. No. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Did you engage in any Communist Party activities, 
to your knowledge, after January 1, 1946 ? 

Mr. Larsex. AVhat do you mean by Communist Party activities? 

Mr. Tavexxer. Did you participate in any meeting or did you 
carry out any directive of the Communist Party? Did you engage in 
any mission of the Communist Party within your labor union or any 
other place? 

Mr. Larsex. I would say "No." 

Mr. Tavexxer. You are uncertain ? 

Mr. Larsex. No; I don't think I am uncertain. 

I might further state that I have never attended a school or a class 
of the Communist Party in my life. 

Mr. TA^T.xxER. Do you categorically deny that you conferred with 
Barbara Hartle on Communist Party matters after July 1950? 

Mr. Larsex. To the best of my recollection, I would have to say 
"No," unless something is further shown me, because I have no recol- 
lection of ever meeting Barbara Hartle in 1950. 

Mr. Tavexxer. You are answering the question in two ways; you 
are saying, to the best of your recollection, and that you did not do it. 
Which do you mean — you did not do it, categorically, or you just 
don't recall ? Which is it — ^you categorically deny it or you state you 
do not remember ? Which view are we to obtain from your testimony ? 

If I haven't made the question plain, I will ask it over again. 

(At this point Mr. Walthew conferred with Mr. Larsen.) 

Mr. Larsex. I will have to deny that I ever met with her. 

Afr. Tavexxer. You categorically deny that you ever engaged in a 
conference with her after July 1950, in regard to Communist Party 
matters; is that correct? 

Mr. Larsex. That is correct. 

Mr. Jacksox. Or any other matters ? 

Mr. Lahsex. I think that is correct. I may have seen her some- 
time. I would have to check dates, as far as meeting her on the street 
or someplace. 

Mr. Jacksox. I am distingushing between a chance meeting on the 
street and. a fre<iuent meeting between the two of you and, let as say, 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6589 

the meeting that is described in the automobile or a meeting in wliich 
she and other Communist functionaries might have been present ; I am 
ruling out the possibility of passing each other on the street when I 
refer to. a meeting. 

Mr. Larsen. And of course the Smith Act trial should be taken 
into consideration there, too. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you meet with Mrs. Hartle in the sense that you 
held a meeting ? 

Mr. Larsen. No, but we did — we were sitting there together, so I 
don't want that construed 

Mr. Jackson. I have reference to a meeting outside the courtroom. 
I am referring specifically to such a meeting as was described. 

Mr. Larsen. No. 

Mr. Jackson. You may proceed, counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did I understand you to say that you signed the 
Taft-Hartley affidavit the second time but did not the first time that 
there was an occasion to consider the matter ? 

Mr. Larsen. Now in 1947, the fall of 1947, I resigned as an inter- 
national officer, because I only had about 6 weeks left to go in office. 
I wasn't rmming for reelection. It was after returning to district 2 
here in Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment. Wliy didn't you run for reelection ? 

Mr. Larsen. Well, it is one of those 

Mr. Tavenner. Just let me ask you this question. Did the re- 
quirement that you must sign an affidavit that you were not a member 
of the Communist Party have anything to do with your decision not 
to become a candidate ? 

Mr. Larsen. No, sir ; because Ave had to — we were selecting and nom- 
inating officers prior to the time the decision was made as to whether 
they were going to comply or not, so that had nothing to do with it ; 
but it was after my return to Seattle — district 2 still did not comply 
at that time. And, as I recall, it was August 3, 1951. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I do not believe I have any other 
questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. During the time that you were leader of the local or 
head of the district of the union, did the Communist members ol the 
union ever call a caucus before the regular union meeting to determine 
what they were going to do in the union meeting ? 

Mr. Larsen. Not to my knowledge, Congressman. There were al- 
ways caucuses at the convention — any number of caucuses. 

Mr. Doyle. Yes, I understand that. We have great volumes of evi- 
dence of the fact that over the Nation the Communist members of 
organized labor — if they were numerous enough at all, or even if they 
weren't very numerous — would gather again and precaucus, so as to 
try to go into union meetings and control them, in order to have con- 
trol without the Communist members ever revealing that or that 
they were Communists. 

My question is very simple and direct. It doesn't refer to conven- 
tions at all; it refers to ordinary local meetings, of which you were 
head of the union at the time you were a Communist, as I understand 
your evidence. Now isn't it a fact that at the time you were Com- 
munist head of the union that you participated in Communist Party 



6590 coMJvruNiST actrities in the pacific northwest area 

caucuses ahead of union meetings and then went into the union meet- 
ings as a Communist and advocated action on resolutions Avhich had 
been secretly acted upon by you and other Communists in that union ? 

Mr. Larsen. No, sir, that is not correct. I must admit that there 
were occasions when I and the top leadership of the Communist Party 
had met and discussed certain issues we felt beneficial to the union and 
went before a caucus of the union after we had gotten there. That 
was my method of work during that period. 

Mr. Doyle. I don't feel that you are answering this question di- 
rectly. I am inclined to say that I understand your answer to be that 
you and the other Communist officers of the union, without any of the 
non-Communists being present, had conferences before union meetings. 

Mr. Larsen. No, sir, I did not say that, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Then I want to stand corrected. 

Mr. Larsen. No. 

Mr. Doyle. Who did confer about what the union was to do before 
the union meeting? When you Communists met to decide what the 
union was going to do, did you have non-Communist officers of the 
union present with you at all times ? 

Mr. Larsen. First of all, it is customary in any union or any organi- 
zation — as president of the district council I would consult with the 
other officers in the district, who jointly went with me to a convention 
or executive board — whichever it may be — and there we would make 
our recommendations. 

Mr. Jackson. Will the gentleman yield at that point ? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes. 

Mr. Jackson. It was also customary in the unions in which Com- 
munists had succeeded in electing officers or members of boards — and 
again I will say that this is not a statement picked out of thin air but a 
statement that has been so thoroughly documented that there can be 
no other conclusion drawn — but that those Communist members of the 
union did meet before general meetings or board meetings or meet- 
ings of the officers to determine upon a course of action which was to 
be followed in the general meeting which was to follow. And I think 
the question, as I understand Mr. Doyle's question is — Did that occur 
with respect to the Communist Party members who were officers of 
this union ? Did they prepare in advance an agenda or certain policies 
which were to be pursued in the general meeting ? 

Mr. Doyle. May I supplement your question, Mr. Chairman ? 

Didn't they do that even once in awhile in your union ? 

Mr. Larsen. Wliat others did I can't verify. I am talking now 
about my own knowledge. 

Mr. Doyle. That is right. 

Mr. Larsen. I stated that I admit that I met with officers of the 
Communist Party and discussed issues we felt should be raised, and I 
went before the executive board. 

Now others may have had caucuses, which I can't prove. I am tell- 
ing about my own relationship. Now they may have held them, as 
you say, but my report was made directly to the executive board. 

Mr. I)oyle. Apparently yours was a different kind of caucus. 
When you were a top Communist, according to your own statement 
at the same time you were the labor union leader. I want to compli- 
ment you. Apparently, you were the one-man caucus for your union. 
1 think that is very complimentary for you, that they didn't have to 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6591 

call a number of you together ; the top Communist leaders were satis- 
fied if you okayed it. 

Mr. Larsen. I don't know whether that is a compliment or not. 

Mr. Doyle. It shows that the extent to which you were able to con- 
trol your union. 

Mr. Larsen. I must say this, in all fairness to myself, again : that 
my recommendations were something that was not verbal ; they were 
in writing. And the committee is welcome to go over every single one 
of them, which are available in writing, verbatim. 

Mr. Doyle. Did those recommendations grow out of the meeting 
with the top functionaries or were they influenced in any way by the 
suggestions of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Larsen. Some I would say were; others were not. 

I have always had a very independent position and I have been in 
disagreement with everybody in the union and out of the union, which 
is a matter of public record. 

Mr. Doyle. Evidently. I compliment you on the evidence of your 
leadership and I hope now that you are out of the Communist Party — 
•evidently because of a major disagreement with its principles — you 
will be just as active, Mr. Larsen, against the principles of the Com- 
munist Party as you were for them at one time. I want to urge you to 
be very vigorous against them. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have anything further, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be 
excused ? 

Mr. Walthew. Could I make just one very short statement? 

Mr. Jackson. I will excuse the witness first. 

The witness is excused from further attendance under the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. You may proceed. 

Mr. Walthew. In line with what the Congressman has said, may 
I say sincerely that I think Mr. Larsen, although he thought he was, 
never really, sincerely was a Communist ? 

Mr, Jackson. Thank you. 

Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Merwin Cole. 

Mr. Jackson. Raise your right hand, sir. 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcommittee, 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Cole. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF MERWIN L. COLE 

Mr. Cole. Merwin L. Cole. 

Mr. Taa^nner. It is noted that you are not accompanied by counsel. 
As the committee has announced frequently, you have a right to consult 
counsel at any time you may desire. 

When and where were you born, Mr. Cole ? 

Mr. Cole. 1913 in Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Seattle ? 



6592 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Cole. I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Cole. I am a lumber salesman in a retail yard. 

Mr. TA^•ENNER. You have been identified durino- the course of the 
hearino:s as a person known to Mrs. Hartle as havino; been a member 
of the Communist Party. I want to give you an opportunity to either 
deny or affirm that information. If you affirm it and state that it is 
correct, I will have other questions to ask you about your knowledge 
of Communist Party activities, so you may proceed to tell the com- 
mittee whether or not that was true — the identification. 

Mr. Cole. Are you asking a question at this time ? 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Yes, you may consider it a question. 

Mr. Cole. My answer to that, sir, is that under article I of the Bill 
of Rights, and article V, I may and do refuse to make an answer which 
constitutes giving evidence against myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?" 

Mr. Cole. I refuse to answer that question, giving the same answer 
as before, for the same reasons. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Have you at any time been a meml)er of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Cole. I refuse to answer that question, using precisely the same 
language and the same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be 
excused ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused from further attendance under 
the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

]\Ir. Tavenner. Nels Spencer Ekroth. 

Mv. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand, sir, and be sworn? 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcommittee, 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Ekroth. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF NELS SPENCER EKROTH, ACCOMPANIED BY 

COUNSEL, SARA H. LESSER 

Mr. Ekroth. Nels Spencer Ekroth — E-k-r-o-t-h. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify herself for the record? 

Miss Lesser. I am Sara H. Lesser of the Seattle bar. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you live, Mr. Ekroth? 

Mr, Ekroth. I reside in Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

( At this point Mi'. Ekroth conferred with Miss Lesser.) 

Mr. Ekroth. I decline to answer that question under the provisions 
of the first and fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were identified as having been a member of 
the Communist Party by Mrs. Ilartle. Was she correct in her identi- 
fication of you or not ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6593 

(At this point Mr. Ekrotli conferred with Miss Lesser.) 

Mr. Ekroth. I will refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Are you now a member of the Comnumist Party? 

Mr. Ekroth. I will refuse to answer — the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party 

at any time ? 

Mr. Ekroth. I will refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavexner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. The witness by chewing gum makes it hard for me to 
try to understand him. Will you desist from chewing gum just for 
a minute, please, while I ask you a question or two ? 

Are you a man of family ? 

(At this point Mr. Ekroth conferred with Miss Lesser. ) 

Mr. Ekroth. Will you clarify that question as to the respect of 
children ? 

Mr. DoTLE. I was going to just ask you if you were a married man 
and had a family. 

How old a man are you ? 

Mr. Ekroth. Thirty-six — or thirty-five going on thirty-six. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, congratulations. 

We assume that you are a married man with a family, and you are 
a young man. Now I am not inferring anything because you have 
pleaded the constitutional privilege ; that is your privilege — one that 
we have in this country — and that is all right, of course, when people 
do it in good faith, and there is no inference of bad faith when a per- 
son pleads it. But let me urge you, if you are in the Communist con- 
spiracy, get out of it. Don't continue in any outfit where you have 
to plead your constitutional privilege to avoid incriminating your- 
self. I want to urge you to get out of it and get the other young fel- 
lows out of it. ^Yhy should a man of your age have to come into a con- 
gressional committee and have to plead the constitutional privilege in 
order to avoid telling facts that might incriminate him ? I wish you 
would think it over pretty seriously and get out of this outfit where 
you have to plead the constitutional privilege to avoid telling facts 
that might hurt you in any way. A man of your age owes your 
country something. 

That is all I have to say. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have anything further, Mr. Counsel? 

Mr. Tavenxer. No, sir. 

Mr. Jacksox. Very well. The witness is excused from further at- 
tendance under the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jacksox. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Laura Wilkins. 

Mr. Jacksox. Will you raise your right hand, please ? 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcom- 
mittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Miss Wilkixs. I do. 

Mr. Jacksox. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavexxer. AAHiat is your name, please ? 



48009 — 54 — pt. 8- 



6594 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

TESTIMONY OF LAUEA WILKINS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

C. T. HATTEN 

Miss WiLKiNS. Laura Wilkins, W-i-1-k-i-n-s. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. Hatten. Yes. I am C. T. Hatten, member of the Washington 
State bar. 

Mr. Tavenner. Testimony has been received by the committee, in 
which it was said that you were dues secretary of the waterfront sec- 
tion of the Communist Party of King County. Were you dues secre- 
tary of the Communist Party ? 

(At this point Miss Wilkens conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Miss Wilkins. I would like to invoke one of the few privileges that 
I, as a Negro woman, still have in declining to answer any questions 
that might tend to make me testify against myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Miss Wilkins. And that amendment is the fifth. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Miss Wilkins. The same answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. May I say to this young lady that every member of 
this committee has heard some of the top Negro former Communists 
in this country testify under oath that the Communist Party has been 
merely using the wonderful Negro Americans as tools, as a means for 
conspiratorial ends? If you didn't know that before, I am telling 
you now. Why don't you look into it ? You would have known that 
if you had been in this room the last few days and heard Mrs. Hartle 
and some of the others testify about that. You are a young woman 
and I want to urge you — if you haven't looked into it yet and had 
your eyes opened, look into it now and get out of this outfit where 
you have to plead a constitutional amendment. 

Miss Wilkins. Mr. Doyle, you have your opinions and I have mine. 

Mr. Doyle. I know I have my opinions and you have yours, because 
you stated them, and you pleaded the constitutional privilege. But I 
want to urge you to get out of an outfit where you have to plead the 
constitutional privilege in order to escape incriminating yourself. 

Miss Wilkins. That is your assumption, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. That isn't the kind of country that has given you birth. 

Miss Wilkins. Nor one that discriminates against me. 

Mr. Doyle. I am glad to hear you say that out our country doesn't 
discriminate against you because you are a Negro. Some of us happen 
to be great respecters of Negro Americans — all of the great Negro 
Americans — and I am referring to men like Dr. Ealph Bunche and 
some of the rest of the great Negro American leaders. They didn't 
plead the fifth amendment when they were being looked into recently. 

Mr. Jackson. I will say to the witness — if you took this attitude 
before the great Soviet courts of justice, you would probably be shot — 
60 it is just as well that you are before the House committee, irresf>ec- 
tive of your race. 

Miss Wilkins. That is also by assumption, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. No, it is not assumption. The records of the Soviet 
concentration camps speak for themselves. I think you are very 
fortunate to be in America. 



COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6595 

Is there anything further ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused from further attendance under 
the subpena. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Carl Backlund. 

Mr. Jackson. Would you stand and be sworn, please? 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this subcommit- 
tee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Backlund. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF CARL BACKLUND 

Mr. Backlund. Carl Backlund. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Backlund, if you have heard any part of these 
proceedings, you will know that you are entitled to confer with counsel 
at any time you may desire. 

Mr. Backlund. Thank you. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now when and where were you born, Mr. Backlund ? 

Mr. Backlund. I was born in Chicago, December 16, 1913. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Seattle ? 

Mr. Backlund. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Seattle ? 

Mr. Backlund. Since 1925, except for a short period — 3 years in 
tlie Navy, 1942 to 1945. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Backlund. I was a shipscaler, casual longshoreman, warehouse- 
man, and now a carpenter. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. During the course of the day you were identified by 
Mrs. Hartle as having been a member of the Communist Party, and at 
the time that you were so identified, you announced to the committee 
that you would tell the staff of the committee about your Communist 
Party activities, is that correct ? 

Mr. Backlund. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. And that you would fully cooperate with the com- 
mittee- 



Mr. Backlund. To the best of my ability. 

Mr. Tavenner. In giving it all the information within your 
knowledge ? 

Mr. Backlund. That is true. 

Mr. Tavenner. Because of the lateness of the hour, I will not be 
able to make a matter of record in this opening hearing the extent of 
your knowledge of Communist Party activities. We will have to con- 
fine our testimony here to just a small part of what I know your knowl- 
edge to be. 

I will ask you for a few general answers and then we will ask you in 
detail about the experiences you have had as an underground member 
of the Communist Party in Seattle. 

When did you become a member of the Communist Party ? 



6596 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. IlvcKLUXD. In 1937. I dropped out in 19o9, rejoined in 1947 and 
Mas suspended or expelled the latter part of 1951. 

Air. TjWenner. In what branches or groups of the Communist Party 
were you active ? 

Mr. I^ACKLUX!>. In the shipscalers' branch in 1937 to 1939, in the 
warehouse branch from — well, first of all from 1947 in the longshore 
industrial group and later the warehouse branch of the Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Tavenner. Would you be willing to testify in executive session 
as to your knowledge of the details of your Communist Party activities 
so that it may be included as part of your testimony ? 

]\[r. Backlund. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. "What led up to your leaving the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Backlund. In 1951, you are ref ei'ring to ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Backlund. In June of 1951 1 was visited by Clayton Van Lyde- 
graf and Paul Bowen and asked to leave the city because I may be 
arrested. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were a member of the Communist Party force 
at that time? 

Mr. Backlund. Yes, sir. They came to my home rather late at 
night in a very secretive manner and asked if I could meet with them 
in the most secluded part of the house. We met in the bedroom, and 
for the big part of our conversation or conference we used a tablet much 
the same as a canasta scoreboard, on which you coidcl write wdiat you 
wanted to say and just lift the panel and it would be erased. And 
there I was asked to be prepared to leave within a week, to assume a 
new^ name, a new social security card, and to proceed to Sedro-AVoolley 
and obtain employment in the woods as a logger. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now you say this was carried on in a veiy secretive 
way? 

Mr. Backlund. Yes, sir — in such a manner that I became fright- 
ened; I mean it tended to scarce me. I couldn't think clearly be- 
cause of the way they conducted themselves, and because up until 
that time I wasn't afraid to announce to the people with whom I 
worked, and son, that I was a Commimist. I believed that if I was 
one, I should say so, and did, but with this kind of meeting, and so 
on, I thought that I would be arrested if I remained. 

Mr. Tavenner. And they so told you ? 

Mr. Backlund. That is correct. I asked about my wife who, by 
the way, was in Chicago attending a Progressive Party convention, 
and they said they would allow me to stay long enough — that is, my 
former wife — they would allow me to stay in Seattle long enough 
until she returned and I could break the news to her. 

I also stated the condition of my health. My leg, because of a cir- 
culatory trouble that I had, was in such shape that I could hardly 
walk, that is, more than 2 or 3 blocks without it cramping up. And 
this made no difference to them ; to the woods I was to go, and that 
was where I went. 

My wife returned shortly after, within a week — my former wife, 
that is — and I discussed with her this meeting that we had held at 
my home, in the bedroom, and she was shocked at that time and de- 
manded that we hold another meeting with Van Lydegraf and Paul 
Bowen. We did manage to meet Paul Bowen in a car. We met at 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6597 

Wiclron, a beach here in Seattle, and discussed the problem of my 
health and the marriage, and so on. 

The choice that he jjave us was for me to leave or to remain here 
in Seattle and be arrested, and we wouldn't be parted in way accord- 
ing to him. 

1 proceeded to Sedro-WooUey and met with Giles Evans there and 
he informed me- — and, by the way, with all this happening in the 
short order that it did, I was able to split some $40 with my former 
wife, so I had $20 and proceeded to Sedro-Woolley looking for em- 
ployment. I was informed by Evans that in order to work in the 
woods you had to have cord boots and that they run up to at least $20. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the man by the name of Evans was 
identified by Mrs. Hartle today as a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Jacksox. Very well. 

Mr. Backlund. It was a fire season at that time; the woods w^as 
down because of the danger of fire, and I was fortunate enough, in 
looking around, that I did find some extra work and made enough 
money to purchase boots, and went to work for days in the woods. 

Because of excruciating pain in my left leg, I could no longer con- 
tinue working there and went into the hospital at Sedro-Woolley, 
taking advantage of the IWA health plan, and gained a month's re- 
spite from this pain. And during my stay there it was made known 
to me that the FBI had obtained the assumed name that I was using — • 
that name was Harold Johnson — and that I was to change my name 
and get out of the hospital as soon as possible and take off for Dar- 
rington, Wash., and continue working in the woods there. 

After a month I recovered from the operation which was supposed 
to have lielped my leg and didn't. I returned to Darrington, but I 
realized tliat I could not go through the hills and the brusli of a logging 
operation. I consequently got a job on a farm and again met (xiles 
Evans and told him this, and he insisted that I quit that job on the 
farm and go into the woods. 

I did quit the job on the farm. I returned to Everett. I realized 
that I simply could not, because of the pain that my left leg was giv- 
ing me. work in the woods, and got a job in the sawmill there. I felt 
that this M'oukl satisfy tlie Communist Party, that I was now w^orking 
in the lumber industry. 

Mr. Tavexner. Were you using an assumed name ? 

Mr. Backlund. Now I had gotten another social-security name ; I 
w^as using the name Eobert Steel. 

Mr. Jacksox. On tliat point, the matter of social-security cards has 
been mentioned several times during the course of these hearings, and 
it appears to me certainly that this matter of getting a new card under 
a new name every few days is a matter upon which this committee 
niiglit very w^ell make a recommendation for remedial legislation. 

What is the process of getting a card ? 

Mr. Backluxd. The first card, I simply went dow^i to the Federal 
building at First and Marion here and applied for a new card. In a 
matter of a couple of weeks I liad it. 

Mr. Jackson. Are you fingerprinted or anything of that sort in 
obtaining a social-security card? 

Mr. Backlund. To the best of my recollection, no. 

Mr. Jacksox". You merely go in, give a name, and make applica- 
tion for a social-security card. Is that the process ? 



6598 coMJvruNiST activities in the pacific northwest area 

Mr. Backlund. That is correct. As a matter of fact, the social- 
security card that I obtained under the name of John Steel I didn't 
apply for myself. 

Mr. Jackson. Was it applied for by someone else ? 

Mr. Backlund. It was delivered to me. 

Mr, DoTLE. Who delivered it to you ? 

Mr. Backlund. Giles Evans. 

Mr. Doyle. Did he sign your name or your false name to an appli- 
cation of any kind ? 

Mr. Backlund. Someone did, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Did you authorize anyone to sign a false name to an 
application for social security ? 

Mr. Backlund. Only in the sense that I accepted it. 

Mr. Jackson. But you had no prior knowledge of the fact that this 
application had been signed or that a card had been issued until the 
card was handed to you ? 

Mr. Backlund. That is correct. 

Mr. Doyle. Who gave you the false name, the second time? Who 
told you what name to take ? 

Mr. Backlund. I left the hospital one night while I was at Sedro- 
Woolley and went over to Evans' home and, when he told me that the 
first name would probably be of no value to me any longer, we dis- 
cussed very shortly what name I would use again and we arrived at 
Robert Steel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you proceed to tell the committee, please, what 
occurred after you began to use your second name and the card ? 

Mr. Backlund. I obtained employment in Everett in a mill and 
felt that this would satisfy the Communist Party, that I was now 
working in the lumber industry, because this was where they seemed to 
want me ; and, to my surprise, I was told to quit that and go into the 
woods. 

Mr. Doyle. Wlio told you ? 

Mr. Backlund. Giles Evans. By this time I begin to wonder what 
the Communist Party was trying to do to me or prove to me and was 
beginning to have some very grave doubts. 

Mr. Tavenner, Let me ask you this: Up until that time had you 
been in contact with any other members of the Communist Party after 
J ou had changed your residence ? 

Mr. Backlund. Wlien I met Giles Evans, he told me that there 
would be a committee of three that would meet in and around Everett — 
a Mr. Verl Hemeke and a Mr. Algar Starr — I believe — I am not sure 
of the first name. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was this the same Mr. Hemeke who was on the 
witness stand here this afternoon? 

Mr, Backlund, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner, He and Mr, Evans and y^ju were to be a committee 
of three? 

Mr. Backlund. Mr. Starr, Mr. Hemeke, myself. 

Mr. Tavenner, Mr, Starr ? 

Mr. Backlund, A member of the IWA, who worked with the 
warehousermill, 

Mr. Ta\t3nner, Did you see Mr, Starr here this afternoon? 

Mr. Backlund, I haven't seen him here, no, 

Mr. Ta'venner. Do you know Mr. Starr's first name ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6599 

Mr. Bacbxund. I always had trouble — I think it was Agar or Algar 
Starr. 

Mr. TA\rENNER. That is very close to it. It is Algot, A-1-g-o-t. 
Proceed. 

Mr. Backlund. We were to form the region committee for the 
Northwest — the three of us, Hemeke, myself, and Starr. 
Mr. Tavenner. That was to function underground ? 
Mr. Backlund. To function underground. And in that region 
there were section clubs at Bellingham, Sedro-Woolley and Ana- 
cortes, Stanwood, Everett, and Salkum. At that time only three peo- 
ple met at one time in the Communist Party. This v/as after 1951. 

.Giles Evans acted as a courier. He carried information to me, 
which I in turn would carry to the other two on the committee ; and, 
as I got it, he was getting, that is, Giles Evans was getting his infor- 
mation from the State committee, probably in Seattle, and he would 
meet with me and then in turn I would meet with the committee, and 
that was the way. Then those two other fellows on the committee 
would meet with various section leaders in those sections I have al- 
ready mentioned. 

And we were attempting to set up an underground organization 
in the area. I believe because of the cumbersome method in which 
vre were working, it was one of the reasons why we were having a 
tough time organizing it. We didn't meet with too much success. 
, Anyway, getting back to the story about working in the mill, I 
refused to quit the job in the mill and stayed there until the mill shut 
down. And during the course of the several months that had gone 
by I had come down to Seattle and met with my former wife a couple 
of times and discussed with her the problem of my health. She 
seemed bewildered as to what to do. 

Mr. Tavenner. She was your wife at that time, was she not? 
Mr. Backlund. That is correct — former — but stated to go back 
and try to get by some way or other, which I did. 

I had met her several times in Seattle, and the last time that I met 
her, the Communist Party — and I was meeting her late at night, and 
so on, so that the Communist Party would not be aware of it. The 
last time that I met her someone in the party observed that meeting 
and I was called on the carpet for it. 

Now by this time it was November and I was told that I was taken 
out of all activity and sent to Anacortes, the mill town — and if any- 
body is acquainted with Anacortes, there isn't too much employment 
there in the winter months — but there I was told to go and seek em- 
ployment, and under the new circumstances I no longer had the ad- 
vantages of social security, so it was get by as best I could. 

I manged for a period of several months to get by that way, but in 
the meantime my leg was getting worse and worse and, finally, I be- 
came thoroughly disgusted with the treatment that I was receiving 
and left and returned to my mother's home in Edmonds. 

Being a veteran, I went to the veterans' hospital. The doctors 
looked me over there and I received a major operation, one that is only 
5 years old, and fortunately for me I got there just in time or I would 
have lost a leg. 

Since that time I have made it a point to stay completely away 
from the party. I agreed with my former wife to a divorce, because 
we could no longer see eye to eye, and sought employment as a car- 



6600 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

penter — have made a complete ideolojjical break from the party — I 
think from politics for that matter, si^r. Have testified before the 
grand jury here in Seattle, that is, the Smith Act trial, and have dis- 
cussed with all of my acquaintances the experiences that I had, par- 
ticularly those from »June 1951, and on, in the party, hoping that these 
people would see, as I had seen, how cruel the Communist Party 
can be. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you report these facts to the Federal Bureau 
of Investigation ? 

Mr. Backlund. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. I believe that you were identified by Mrs. Hartle. 
Were the details of her testimony, as they related to you, accurate to 
the best of your knowledge ? 

Mr. Backlund. To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Is it my further understanding that the witness has 
made himself available for further interrogation in executive session? 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have anything more at this time, Mr. 
Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I think not, in view of the lateness of the hour. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. DoYLE. I wish to compliment the gentleman on realizing the 
mess he was in and correcting that and coming forward to help the 
Government further clean up this conspiracy. 

Mr. Backlund. Thank you. 

Mr. Doyle. Thanks for your cooperation. 

Mr. Jackson. I would like to join with my distinguished colleague 
in extending the thanks of the committee for the testimony at this 
time and for your willingness to further appear to give additional 
testimony of your own knowledge of the Communist Party. 

If there is nothing further, the witness is excused. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. In conclusion, it should be said that the success of 
any hearing such as the one being concluded today is dependent in 
large part upon the element of cooperation furnished to the Con- 
gress and the committee by local agencies of government, press, radio 
and television, and the public generally. 

In no hearing held anywhere across the United States have all 
parties concerned joined together in a finer display of cooperative ef- 
fort than has been the case here in Seattle. The thanks of the com- 
mittee are due to the Seattle Police Force, under H. J. Lawrence, chief 
of police, whose splendid assistance in furnishing security and trans- 
portation is greatly appreciated. 

V. L. Kramer, chief of detectives, and J. D. Porter, chief of patrol, 
have both gone to great lengths to be helpful to the committee and 
staff. Detective John C. Hoberg and Officer Charles B. Seely, who 
have attended the committee on ]:)ermanent detail during the week, 
have been efficient and courteous in the discharge of their assigned 
duties. Detective Sergeant G. T. Belland has been of great assistance 
in many wavs. 

Sheriff H. S. Callahan of the King County Sheriff's Office and 
United States Marshal W. B. Parsons, both have assisted the com- 
mittee in many ways. Without the hel]ifnl spirit of cooperation shown 
by the county connnissioners, it would have been impossible to con- 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6601 

duct the hearings here in this fine room. The committee extends its 
deep appreciation to Commissioners Sears, McLean, and Gibbs, not 
only for their kindness in making this room available, but for their 
tolerance in living with the near-bedlam that has been the order of the 
day in their own offices and the departmental office immediately in the 
rear of the hearing room. Not the least of the scores of little courte- 
sies extended the committee and staff has been the coffee sent down 
from the county jail for the committee and staff during the recesses. 

Press, radio, and television coverage of the hearings has not been 
excelled in any other city. The conduct of the representatives of all 
three media here in the room during the week has been marked by a 
high degree of cooperation. The committee wishes to express its 
thanks to all who have covered the week-long hearings. 

In the final analysis, the success or failure of public hearings de- 
pends upon the attitude taken by the public. Disorder in the hear- 
ing room, unruly conduct on the part of the spectators, loud or un- 
necessary conversation all tend to render more difficult the orderly 
and dignified conduct of the hearing. The committee notes with satis- 
faction that the physical audience in the hearing room during the 
week has been attentive and courteous in every respect. 

The watching and listening audience throughout the city and ad- 
jacent areas have deluged the committee with expressions of support 
and approval. Our task has been made much easier by the knowledge 
of such general and widespread support from those organizations and 
individuals who have communicated expressions of support and en- 
couragement to the committee on the general conduct of the committee. 

I might say parenthetically that the next time you hear screams of 
rage and pain from the Communists and from the fellow sympathizers 
of the leftwing generally that somebody is being placed on the rack 
and tortured by the committee, I think that the people of Seattle who 
have had an opportunity to view the hearings will have some measure 
by which they can make up their own minds about that. 

The nature of the testimony adduced during the week of hearings 
can lead the committee to one inescapable conclusion, and that is the 
existence of a widespread Communist infiltration into almost every 
activity in this area. The actual extent of that infiltration cannot 
accurately be determined by the facts presently in the record of the 
proceedings, but on the basis of similar hearings previously conducted 
by the committee in other great cities of the Nation it can be stated on 
considerable authority that the total membership of the Communist 
Party in tliis area probably numbered several tliousands of persons. 
That figure has been significantly reduced to this time. 

However — and the committee wishes to stress this point — the actual 
numerical strength of the Communist conspiracy is not the yardstick 
by which its power to inflict irre])arable damage on our institutions 
and our defenses can or should be measured. A handful of deter- 
mined Communists in a local labor union can and will destroy democ- 
racy in that union if unretarded by the vigilance of the majority of 
union members. 

One Communist faculty member in a school can and will poison the 
minds and wither the souls of young students if his activities both on 
and off the campus are not made the subject of constant scrutiny. 



6602 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

The myth that the Communist conspiracy constitutes nothing more 
than the activities of individuals gathered together for the pursuit of 
legal political activities has long since been exploded. Those who 
meet in secret under assumed names for the purpose of fomenting dis- 
order, turmoil, and revolution deserve the name "conspirators." 

Arrogance, contempt for and vilification of constituted authority 
are the unmistakable hallmarks of the conspiracy and of its agents. 
Under the guise of protecting human rights, this conspiracy in fact 
seeks to destroy them. Against this organized effort to destroy con- 
stitutional government by unconstitutional means must be arrayed all 
of the forces and weapons available to a free people. 

This committee is established by the Congress of the United States 
and has been cloaked by that body with wide power under Public Law 
601. It is one of the weapons in the hands of the American people. 
Wlio dulls the edge of that weapon brings joy to the hearts of those 
whose dedicated task it is to destroy the Constitution of the United 
States and place human freedom behind barbed wire. 

The fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United States is a 
sacred privilege, oft abused as it has been during the course of these 
and other hearings. In answer to the many citizens of the Seattle 
area who have written to the committee relative to the use of the 
amendment by uncooperative witnesses, the committee can only state 
again that there is presently no legislative device to meet that misuse ; 
the need for clarifying legislation is clearly apparent. Communist 
directives lay a charge upon Communists and Communist sympa- 
thizers to carry the class struggle into courts and hearing rooms, to 
remain always on the offensive, and to use whatever devices are neces- 
sary to prevent disclosures which might be harmful to the Communist 
conspiracy. 

The evidences of this technique were abundantly made clear during 
the Medina trial and in subsequent court action stemming from viola- 
tions of the Smith Act and other antisubversion legislation. Turmoil 
in courts and hearings replaces decorum in the Communist scheme, 
and dignity becomes an early casualty to the premeditated tactics of 
the Communist conspiracy. 

Those familiar with the techniques of the Communist Party have 
had a firsthand opportunity to witness communism in action here 
in this room for the past 6 days. Committee members and the staff 
have been maligned and vilified in this very room. The motives and 
the purposes of the investigation have been misrepresented and sorely 
distorted. Charges involving the integrity of the Congress of the 
United States and the elected representatives of the American people 
have been hurled indiscriminately and venomously by witnesses using 
eA'^ery tactic and evasion to cover their alleged activities within the 
Communist conspiracy. 

The committee is confident that these efforts to undermine public 
confidence in the committee and its work will be as unavailing in the 
Seattle area as they have proven to be in other cities throughout this 
country. 

To those witnesses who have given the American people of their own 
experiences in the Communist conspiracy, the committee extends its 
thanks. Those who have lived through the lie of communism and have 
come forward to do an American duty as they see that duty should 
have not only the thanks of the Nation but the sympathetic under- 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6603 

standing of business associates, employers, and former friends and 
associates outside of the Communist Party. Scorned and vilified as 
they are by former associates within the party, these witnesses should 
find understanding among the vast body of loyal American citizens. 
They should receive every assistance toward economic, social, and 
pojitical rehabilitation consistent with the quality of trustworthiness 
which marked their testimony. 

It should be remembered that without the testimony of hundreds of 
former Communists who have severed their ties with the conspiracy 
and who have testified fully as to the extent and nature of the activities 
of the party, there would not today be an ever-expanding volume of 
knowledge and information in the hands of the American Congress 
and available to the American people. 

Eternal vigilance is indeed the price of liberty. Vigilant action 
is neither needed nor desirable. The work of tracking down subver- 
sion of every type and of insuring the passage of Federal remedial 
legislation designed to meet the threat against human freedom is a 
charge which must rest upon duly constituted authority at all levels 
of government. 

Intelligent and loyal citizens armed with facts of subversion and 
disloyalty can render a signal service to the American people by con- 
tacting the Federal Bureal of Investigation or other agencies, the 
■duties of which include investigation and proper evaluation of in- 
formation. 

The question has been asked as to what purpose is served by the 
disclosure of the names of individuals who may long ago have left the 
conspiracy and since devoted themselves to home and work in the 
manner of loyal American citizens. This is a reasonable question and 
one deserving of a reasonable answer. The testimony of a cooperative 
witness is not tampered with in any way by this committee or by its 
staff. That testimony must stand the cruel test imposed by the sub- 
sequent appearance before the committee of those who are named. It 
would be an act of intellectual dishonesty for this committee to add or 
detract one name from the list of those whom the witness is prepared 
to identify under oath as having been, within his own knowledge, a 
member of the conspiracy during the period of the witness' own 
membership. The identity of an individual having been made in 
public or executive session, the committee has no alternative but to 
place that individual in the witness chair at the earliest possible 
moment. 

The decision on the part of a witness as to the nature of his testi- 
mony, whether he will cooperate or not, is not within the authority of 
the committee to rule upon. Every member of the Communist Party, 
past or present, is or was a small section of a jigsaw puzzle, and each 
had his role to play. The fact of having left the conspiracy in no way 
eradicates or erases his knowledge of events that transpired during 
the membership nor of the role he played. The committee has no way 
of knowing the status of his membership at present until he is placed 
under oath and the information is sought to be elicited. 

Upon the front of a great public building in Washington. D. C, 
there are graven on stone the words "The past is prologue." If this is 
true, and if individuals insure the future by reference to the past, then 
it is equally true that nations under unremitting attack must look to 
the past in the preparation of its future defenses. One missing piece 



6604 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

of the vast and forbidding puzzle may well be in the possession of a 
former and disillusioned member of the conspiracy. The risk attend- 
ant on failure to make adequate and comprehensive inquiry at every 
available source is too great to justify the theory that former Com- 
munists should be immune to interrogation. The bank robber, the em- 
bezzler or the murderer who leaves the pursuit of crime to take up a 
quiet existence in a rural community enjoys no immunity for his past 
activity, and the stake of society involved in the transgressions of 
those who steal physical properties or money is, while important, as 
nothing to the activities of those who would enslave the world. 

Again on behalf of the House Committee on Un-American Activi- 
ties and on behalf of my colleagues on the committee, may I express 
our deep gratitude for the warm and wholehearted welcome which has 
been accorded us here in the great city of Seattle. 

And now the committee will stand in adjournment subject to the 
call of the Chair. 

(Whereupon, at 6 p. m., the hearing was adjourned, subject to the 
call of the Chair.) 



INDEX TO PART 8 



Individuals 

ir'age 

Alexander, Ed 6582 

Backhiud, Carl (see also Johnson, Harold) 6595-6604 (testimony) 

Biddle, Francis 6521 

Booth, Wayne 6516 

Bowen, Paul 6596 

Bridges, Harry 6521 

Bunche, Ralph 6594 

Burton, Philip 6561-6563, 6565 

Cales, J 6551 

Oamphell, Ray 6515 

Camvell 6526 

Case, Victor 6515-6516 (testimony) 

Caughlan, John 6524, 

6526. 6520. 6530. 6561-6562 (testimony), 6565-657S (testimony) 

Clark, Tom 6521 

Cohen. Elizaheth Boggs 6566,6567 

Cole, IMerwin L 6591-6592 (testimony) 

Connolley, Ed 6560 

Copass, Michael 6.')17 

Crumbaker, Harry 6545.6546-6561 (testimony) 

Davis, Ralph George 6513-6515 (testimony) 

Dennett, Eugene V 6522 

Dobbins, William K 6541-6543 (testimony) 

Dunhar, Pat 6560 

Ekroth, Nels Spencer 6592-6593 (testimony) 

Evans. Giles 6597-6599 

Frankfeld. Phil 6.582 

Franklin, Mitchell 6.568 

Friel, Ed 6514 

Furnish, Arthur 65.54, 6557 

Griffin, Tracey 6562, 6564 

Griswold, Erwin R 6545, 6574 

Haggin, Caroline (Mrs. James Haggin) 6554 

Haggin, James 6554, 6.557-6559 

Hartle, Barbara (see also Wood) 6513-6515, 

6522. 6529. 6531. 6532, 6535, 6542. 6545, 6547-6550, 6555, 6557-6560, 
6566, 6567. 6582, 6583, 6585, 6587-6589, 6592. 6594, 6595, 6-597. 6600 

Hartle, John 6557 

Hatten, C. T 6533, 6.540, 6541, 6594-6595 

Hemeke, Verl F 6536-6540 (testimony). 6598. 6599 

Huff, Henry P 6580-6582. 6587 

Huirhes. Hildur Josephine 6523.6524-6526 (testimony) 

Iverson, Stanley O 6,526-6.529 (testimony) 

.lackson 6582 

Jackson, Justice 6571 

Johnson, Harold (see also Backlund, Carl) 6595-6604 (testimony) 

Kim Kong Sok ^512, 6513 

Larsen, Karley 6578-6.591 (testimony) 

Lee, Reverend 6.512 

Lesser, Sara H 65.36. 6543, 6.544. 6592-6598 

Ludington. Melvin 6529-6.530 (testimony) 

.MacDonald. Kenneth A 6.511 

Namkung, Johsel 6511-6513 (testimony) 

Paschal, Wayne 6544-6.546 (testimony) 

i 



ii INDEX 

Pag* 

Rappaport, Morris 6560, 6582 

Reiues, Andy 6582 

Russell, George 6543-6544 (testimony) 

Schweppe, Alfred J 6561, 6562 (statement), 6565 

Shain, Henry 6570 

Shifferly, William Carl 6530-6533 (testimony) 

Starr, Algot 6533-6536 (testimony), 6598, 6599 

Steel, John 6598 

Steel, Robert {see also Backlund, Carl) 6597 

Stevenson, John C 6549 

Strom, Elmer 6516-6524 (testimony) 

Thrasher, Elmer 6539-6541 (testimony) 

Truman, Harry S 6524, 6565 

Van Lydegraf, Clayton 6582, 6587, 6596 

Walthew, John F 6578 

Wheeler, Jack 6553 

Wheeler, Maybelle 6553 

Wildman, Leonard Basil 6546, 6547 

Wilkins, Laura 6593-6595 (testimony) 

Wood (see also Hartle, Barbara) 6582 

Organizations 

A. F. of L 6578 

American Bar Association 6562-6564 

American Civil Liberties Union 6562-6565 

CIO 6578 

Carpenters and Joiners, AFL 6578 

Communist Party, Washington State : 

King County Region 6567 

Waterfront Section 6594 

Longshore Industrial Group 6596 

Seattle 6523, (5566, 6567, 6595 

Shipscalers Branch 6596 

Spokane 6560 

Warehouse Branch 6596 

Federal Bureau of Investigation 6551, 6560, 6597, 6600, 6603 

Harvard Law School 6545, 6566, 6574 

Independent Progressive Party 6596 

International Association of Firefighters of Seattle, Local 27 6517 

International Woodworkers of America 6534, 

6535, 6578, 6579, 6581, 6585, 6597, 6598 

International Woodworkers of America, CIO 6578 

District No. 2 6579 

District No. 3 6579 

League for Industrial Democracy 6555 

Lovaltv Review Board 6521 

Seattle Bar Association 6511, 6516, 6561-6565. 6577 

Seattle Fire Department 6517, 6523 

Socialist Workers Party 6561 

Soviet Russia Today 6552 

Tulano Law School 6568' 

University of Washington 6516 

Washington Commonwealth Federation 6548, 6554, 6556, 6558, 6560 

Workers Alliance 6548, 6549-6558 

r>>cal 66 6551 

Works Progress Administration 6548, 6551, 6557 

Yale ITni versify — 656(> 

Young Communist I>eagne 6561 

o 



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