,irit?iiffnlliHfHi)-itHH^n^
rt
Lfi.
•piialitm
^
&^^^
Given By
IT. s. suf:
It 7-'^
_p'
.:^" V ;,^ OSir D^j;.;,:^ ^^-r^" /^^
R-^
J
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— Part 8
(FLINT)
HEARINGS
ra-'^;tr:i fJ''!'-'
BEFORE THE , » . .-, p "\ •-;
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMEKICXN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGEESS
SECOND SESSION
APRIL 30 AND MAY 12, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
INCLUDING INDEX
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTINa OFFICB
48861 WASHINGTON : 1964
Boston Public Library
Euperintendent of Documents
SEP 2 8 1954
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois, Chairman
BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania
DONALD L. JACKSON, California MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri
KIT CLARDY, Michigan CLYDE DOYLE, California
GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee
Robert L. Kdnzig, Counsel
Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel
Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk
Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research
COURTNEY E. Owens, Acting Chief Invettigator
u.
CONTENTS
Page
April 30, 1954, testimony of Witness X 5487
May 12, 1954, testimony of :
Beatrice Churctiill 5515
Howard Ira Falk 5565
Index i
m
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946],
chapter 753, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted ly the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America, in Congress assemhled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121, STANDING COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
RtTLE XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
• « • • .
(g) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) Tlie Committee on Un-American Activities, as a wliole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and at-
tacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such in-
vestigation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
V
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 83D CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1953
• •*•**•
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each CJongress,
the following standing committees :
***♦•*•
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make, from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.
VI
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— Part 8
(Flint)
FRIDAY, APRIL 30, 1954
United States House of Eepresentatives,
Committee on Un- American Activities,
Lansing^ Mich.
executive afternoon session^
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, pursuant to call, at 3 : 05 p. m., Representative Kit Clardy being
present.
Committee member present : Hon. Kit Clardy.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Donald
T. Appell, investigator.
Mr. Clardy. The hearing will be in order. Mr. Counsel, are you
ready ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Will you stand, witness, and be sworn? You do sol-
emly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
The Witness. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. It is the practice of the committee to advise all
witnesses who appear before it that they have the privilege of consult-
ing counsel during the course of their interrogation if they desire to
do it. Having noted that you do not have counsel with you, I assume
that you do not desire counsel.
The Witness. No.
TESTIMONY OF WITNESS X^
Mr.TAVENNER. Have you had occasion in the past to work for any
agency of the United States Government within the Communist
Party?
The Witness. Yes, I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat agency of the Government was that?
The Witness. The Federal Bureau of Investigation. I would like
to put on record that I did not work for them ; I cooperated with them.
Mr. Tavenner. When you state that you cooperated with them, do
you mean to state that you worked for compensation or that you
worked for them without compensation ?
5487
^ Released by the committee.
•Name of witness not released.
5488 C02VIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
The Witness. I refused compensation.
Mr. Tavenner. What motivated you in undertaking that work?
The Witness. Well, at the time I had several contacts with the Com-
munist Party, well-known Communists who happened to be the same
nationality I was, and an agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation
asked if I wouldn't cooperate with them since it was apparent that
I had very few Communist ideas, and it was not likely that I was a
Communist.
Mr. Tavenner. You were willing to accept that undertaking, were
you not?
The Witness. After consideration, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you been a member of the Communist Party
or affiliated in any manner with it prior to this arrangement with the
Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
The Witness. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the work that you agreed to do require you to
become a member of the Communist Party?
The Witness. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you become a member?
The Witness. September of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. And how long did you remain a member?
The Witness. Until 1952 ; I believe it was 1952.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you state the date in 1952 when you ceased to
perform this service for the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
The Witness. Well, it was in the spring, April. I don't know
exactly. I don't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. During the period of your membership at the re-
quest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation did you report the activi-
ties observed by you to the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
The Witness. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, where you be-
came a member of the Communist Party? That is, in what city, and
also state the circumstances under which you got into the party.
The Witness. I became a Communist, member of the Communist
Party, in Flint Mich., and at the time of my membership it was gen-
erally agreed that no cards were issued, so I paid a membership fee, and
I was automatically a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned to a unit or group of the Com-
munist Party when you first became a member ?
The Witness. Yes, I was. I was assigned to the Labor Youth
League and the Progressive Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the nature of your assignment to the
Labor Youth League and the Progressive Party? Let us begin first
with the Labor Youth League.
The Witness. At that time there were quite a number of Commu-
nists who were classified as youth, and because I was young and
because of what they considered my contacts with the youth of Flint
and my long association with the people of Flint, they felt that I
would be best suited for that particular organization.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to your being assigned to the Labor Youth
League did you attend a regular meeting of a Communist Party
group ?
The Witness. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of that group ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5489
The Witness. The Youth Ckib of the Communist Party.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Do you recall where it met ?
The Witness. Yes, I recall where it met, at 1814 Jasmine Street.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that a private residence ?
The Witness. Yes, it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Whose home was it ?
The Witness. It was the Baxter residence, and Louis and Bolza
had an apartment, and the meeting was held in the apartment.
Mr. Tavenner. What business was conducted at that meeting?
The Witness. It was financial ; the business was taken care of. I
believe at that time .Jimmy Zarichny — his Christian name is James
Zarichny — had an educational forum, I would say, where the various
so-called attacks upon Communists were discussed, and I believe at
that meeting it was recognized that the future was to hold more
martyrdom for the Communists. I was introduced as a new member,
and there were various members that had not attended who they be-
lieved were not to continue their membership because of their lack of
interest.
I don't recall the names except one, and it was a young girl, and
they thought it was best that she remain out of the Communist Party.
They never really considered her a Communist.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall who took the leading parts in the
business that came before that meeting ?
The Witness. Yes, I can. Bolza Baxter, Jimmy Zarichny, and
Louis Baxter. Bolza was the chairman, and Jimmy had the forum I
spoke of, and Louis, as usual, pounded out his theories and made a
valuable contribution to the whole meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. How many were in attendance at this meeting ?
The Witness. Approximately eight.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it at this meeting which you have referred to
that you were assigned by the Communist Party to work in the Labor
Youth League ?
The Witness. No, I was not assigned at this meeting. Assignments
aren't given out that readily. It was at a later meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the matter discussed at this meeting?
The Witness. No, it was not.
Mr. Tavenner. Did a discussion take place at this meeting regard-
ing the importance of Communist Party work within the Labor Youth
League ?
The Witness. No.
Mr. Tavenner. What directions were given at this meeting as to the
time and manner in which the group would meet again ?
The Witness. There were no specific directions given. The group
was told that they would be notified of a future meeting, and the future
meeting which was referred to was not spoken of in a, shall we say,
definite manner. It was put on a very inconsistent basis, at some time
soon the group would be hearing from the chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that information given in such a way as to in-
dicate some unusual action was proposed to be taken ?
The Witness. Yes; in view of the discussion that had ensued, I
would say yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did the next meeting occur ?
The Witness. In September. It was about 2 weeks later.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was the meeting held.
5490 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
The Witness. The meeting was held in a farmhouse near Lapeer.
At any rate, it is in Lapeer County, and the farmhouse, I believe, is or
"was owned by a trade union. The name of the trade union I do not
know.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether the meeting was held in this
farmhouse with the knowledge and consent of the officials of the trade
union ?
The Witness. It is just my opinion that the trade union had little
if no knowledge of the activities that were at the farmhouse. It hap-
pened that a caretaker by the name of Frank — I do not recall his last
name — was considered very progressive and in sympathy with the
Communists, and when arrangements were to be'made as to a meeting
place, well, Frank was contacted. This arrangement not only was as
far as meetings were concerned, but if someone wished to drop out to
the farmhouse for recreational purposes, such as fishing or just going
out for a drive, they would very often drop in on Frank. As far as
I could observe, the farmhouse was isolated to a degree, and there was
no one that could really observe the activity.
Mr. Tavenner, Upon arriving at this meeting what did you ascer-
tain was its purpose
The Witness. We were told to meet on a Saturday afternoon at
this farmhouse, and when we arrived, we found people from out of
town there. I was quite surprised because I had thought that the
meeting was more a recreational one than a business one. After we
arrived, the out-of-towner, Jack Gore, presided as chairman, and we
were told at that time that the Communist Youth Club was being dis-
solved and that from now on the youth would be categorized as the
Labor Youth League and the Young Progressives, often called the
YP.
The reason for dissolving the Communist Youth clubs was that they
felt that there was a national need for a Marxist youth organization
and a national need for a youth organization whose function was a
progressive one, but not necessarily a Marxist one. At this meeting
it was brought out that with the trend of the times as they were, in-
cluding such factors as unemployment, war, that the youth was ready
to be moved into progressive channels, and yet because of the hysteria
of communism existing in the country at the time, they would be
hesitant to join a known Communist group.
At this meeting it was pointed out that the leaders had met previ-
ously and had discussed these questions, and it was felt that the Labor
Youth League and the Young Progressives would make a far more
valuable contribution than would the Communist youth if they were
known as Communist youth. Naturally there were several questions
asked, one of them being, "Well, does this mean we are not Commu-
nists any more?" They were answered that, no, it did not mean they
were not Communists any more because they would still abide by the
rules and regulations of the section committee, and that they would
still have contact with the Communist Party, but it would not be as
active a contact as they would have had previous to the organization
of the Labor Youth League and the YP.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you learn from any of the persons present of
any action that had been taken on a national level regarding the youth
work in the Communist Party ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5491
The Witness. Yes, I did. In May of 1949 I understand — although
I was not present at that meeting — that the national youth leaders of
the Communist Party met in Chicago, on the north side, I believe.
At this meeting it was decided that the Labor Youth League and the
YP would be much more of a vanguard organization than the young
Communists working within the framework of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. From whom did you learn that ?
The Witness. I learned it from fiolza Baxter.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he state whether or not he had been in attend-
ance at that meeting ?
The Witness. He had not been in attendance. I think he was
rather hurt that he wasn't in attendance, but he had received instruc-
tions as far as the meeting was concerned from Jack Gore who was at
that time the State chairman. He was decided to be State chairman
at that meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it at this meeting that the matter of your
assignment to the Labor Youth League was discussed and decided
upon ?
The Witness. Yes, it was at this meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat further discussion was there at this meeting
regarding the assignment of Communist Party members to the Labor
Youth League and to the Young Progressives or any other organiza-
tions ?
The Witness. It was felt at that meeting that myself, because I
was a native Flintite, that it would be best if I worked with the
Labor Youth League. It was also felt at that time that if the people
were broken into halves— for instance, half native young people and
the other half out-of-towners, colonizers, which I am sure will be
taken up later — that the Flint people could give them directions as
to the environment in Flint and the activities of Flint, the history of
Flint, so therefore not all out-of-towners were put in YP and not all
out-of-towners were put in LYL because there had to be some that
were from Flint and that were well-known who could give directions
to the out-of-towners.
It was felt that the out-of-towners very often were not known, so
therefore were not trusted, but if you were from Flint and had been
a resident of Flint for quite some time, then naturally you would have
long-time associations with various groups and individuals, and so
forth.
Mr. Tavenner. What other assignments, if any, were made at this
meeting ?
The Witness. The primary assignments were made to LYL and
YP, as I have stated before. However, there were a few individuals
who were taken out of youth work completely because they were shop
workers, one of them a shop worker of long standing, so therefore it
was felt that he would be of much more use to work directly with the
trade unions than to be working with youth groups. Interestingly
enough, the age factor did not play a great part in this because there
were older people that did work with youth groups that were the
same age as the ones that were taken out.
Mr. Tavenner. You mentioned a moment ago that there were colon-
izers in the Flint area. Will you tell the committee, please, what you
meant by the use of this term ?
5492 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
The Witness. The word "colonizer" was used quite frequently at
that time, and at that time it meant people who were sent by the
Communist Party from other cities, principally New York, to come
to industrial areas to help and to further the aims of the Communist
Party within a given area. In this area it would naturally be Flint.
However, after a period it was a suggestion of the Communist Party
that the word "colonizer" be dropped since when people would come
in to work within a given area, they should immediately acclimatize
themselves to the area to which they were sent ; therefore, thinking of
themselves as colonizers and with ties in other cities did not help the
Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state to the committee, please, who were
known to you to have been sent in to the Flint area as colonizers, the
States from where they were sent, if you know, and all other facts
within your knowledge which would demonstrate the purpose for
which they were sent. In answering this question it would also be
well for you to state what assignments the individual persons were
given in the Communist Party as a result of the meeting which you
have been describing.
The Witness. The colonizers for the most part were sent to
Michigan from New York City. Now, it is generally known, I be-
lieve, that New York has a proportion of Communist members in
the Communist Party which is a higher proportion than in other areas,
any other given area in the country. Now, the Communists in New
York had not worked in industry, had not participated in trade-union
struggles; they were considered more of intellectual Communists, so
that the leadership of the Communist Party felt that these people
should learn more of the various aspects of industrial life, and as they
would phrase it, to learn more of the struggles of the trade-union
movement and of the struggles of the people who had to be Commu-
nists and work in trade-union movements. These persons from New
York were asked to come into the industrial areas. Some of their oc-
cupations were certainly not industrial. Some were college students ;
some were recent college graduates ; some were housewives.
Upon their assignment to an industrial area they were sent to the
district headquarters in Detroit, and from there reassigned to other
industrial areas. It should be made clear right now that these people
were sent not openly — by that I means they were instructed to be quite
secretive — very often they were not to let their friends in school, let
their friends in their social life in New York, know what they were
doing, and it was a highly secretive operation.
After they would come to Detroit, many of them stayed here, and
there were a few assigned to Flint.
After they arrived in Flint, their immediate purpose was not to
dally too much, but to put in an immediate application into the auto
factories. In fact, it went on so far that they were even told what
factory to put their application in because they wouldn't want all the
Communists, for instance, to work at Buick as Chevrolet needed a
few, too, as did Fisher and AC.
Their presence in Flint was not Icnown immediately. The reason
for this, of course, is the 3 months' seniority in the shop. After
their 3 months' seniority in the shop was completed, then they would
be working more closely with the Conununists.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5493
During this 3 months' initial period while they were working in
the factory, they were the epitome of good behavior. They dis-
cussed no questions. They became quite friendly with the workers.
In fact, some of them were quite opposite to the left. Our propor-
tion of colonizers was low, much to the chagrin of the Communist or-
ganizers because many of the colonizers were so used to the big city
life in New York that they rather liked Detroit because it seemed
more like home to them than coming up to Flint.
However, we did have our share, I would say, a good 15 or 20.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee the names of those
who came into the Flint area who were classified as colonists in the
Communist Party ?
The Witness. I will try. It was very difficult at first to learn their
proper or correct names. Very often they would use a pseudo-name
or nickname, but as the months went by, of course you became more
familiar with them, and you worked with them, so naturally you knew
their names and their histories. There was one Howard Falk who
was an electrical engineer, I believe, and a graduate of one of the col-
leges in New York, and I believe it was City College of New York.
Howard came from a middle-class background. He obtained work at
the Buick motor division and was assigned to LYL as its secretary —
later elected secretary.
Mr. Tavenner. Let. me interrupt you at this point. I desire to
introduce in evidence and ask that it be received as Witness X Exhibit
No. 1, a letter from James S. Peace, associate dean of the City College,
addressed to Donald T. Appell, investigator of this committee, relat-
ing to the educational attainments of Mr. Howard Falk, from which
it appears that on September 1, 1949, he was awarded a bachelor of
electrical engineering degree.
Mr. Clardy. That may be received at this point.
(The letter from James S. Peace to Donald T. Appell, marked "Wit-
ness X Exhibit No. 1," was received in evidence.) ^
Mr. Tavenner. I desire also to introduce into evidence a photostatic
copy of an application for employment in the Buick plant, motor divi-
sion, Flint, Mich., of Howard Falk and ask that it be received as
Witness X exhibit No. 2.
Mr. Clardy. It may be so received in evidence.
(The photostatic copy of application of Howard Falk , marked
"Witness X Exhibit No. 2," was received in evidence. ) ^
Mr. Tavenner, It is noted from this application that Mr. Falk does
not give information indicating that he has received an engineering
degree, but, on the contrary, merely shows that he took a course in
engineering from 1944 to 1945 when, according to the exhibit No. 1, he
received his degree September 1, 1949. From your knowledge of the
way in which colonization took place in Flint, have you any explana-
tion to make of that variance between the facts and the application?
The Witness. Well, I might be able to clear it up. It would look
very odd to the Buick motor division to classify a man who had an
engineering degree and who requested just laboring work. It would
probably cause them to become suspicious of his motives of employ-
ment. So therefore it was party directive that if such a degree were
obtained, not to mention it.
* Retained In committee files.
5494 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
If you had a degree and you asked for assembly-line work, don't
mention the degree or they will start becoming suspicious, especially
if you were from out of town.
Mr. Tavenner. Was this a device utilized by others who engaged
in colonization of this area ?
The Witness. Yes, it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether there were any instances
in which those engaged in colonizing in the Flint area, as you have
described, were instructed to give misleading information designed to
conceal their actual status?
The Witness. Wherever there would be any hint of suspicion, the
Communists were instructed to conceal. Because of the period in
which they lived, there was always a suspicion of communism, and
if it meant a little bit of fabrication on an employment record, they
were instructed to do it. If it meant giving false references, they
were instructed to do it because most of these personnel records are
not checked that closely. There are too many being hired.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did these instructions emanate from ?
The Witness. From the section committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Who is the next person ?
The Witness. Howard later returned to New York City, and it
was at one time thought that he might not come back, but he returned
at Christmas with his wife, Nina Phillips Falk. She comes from an
upper middle-class background. Her father is a dentist, and she
was automatically included in the membership as a member of the
Communist Party; in fact, she was just transferred. She was not
routed to Detroit. She came immediately to Flint.
Then there was one William Van der Does. I don't know too much
about his educational background, but I do know that he had some
college work; what college I do not know. He was assigned to YP.
About 1 year later he also returned to New York and brought his
wife, Lola, also a member of the Communist Party, to Flint. She
was not routed through Detroit, although the marriage took place in
Detroit,
There was one husband and wife team by the name of Sherwood
and — Sherwood, alias Jerry — and Marilyn, alias Molly, Baumkel.
Sherwood, alias Jerry, Baumkel had not been employed as far as my
knowledge is concerned, in any industry. I do not know his educa-
tional background, but I do not think he completed college.
Sherwood had many opportunities to work in New York near his
family, more so than the average Communist. He is a personable
looking young man and could have gone far had he stayed in New
York. He brought with him his wife, Molly, who had attended Hunter
College in New York. I do not know if she graduated, but I think
she did.
Then there was Martin, alias Marty, Trachtenberg. This man had
also a great intellectual capacity and could have gone far had he
remained in New York. I believe he attended college, but I do not
know if he graduated. With him was Phyllis Trachtenberg who, I
believe, attended college, but I do not know if she graduated.
Mr. Taa^nner. What was the nature of his assignment in the Com-
munist Party?
The Witness. His assignment in the Communist Party at this
meeting was right to the trade union. He was not assigned to the
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5495
youth group at all. May I refer back to the record and say that
Marilyn Baumkel was assigned to YP. Her husband, Jerry Baumkel,
was assigned to LYL, and William Van der Does was assigned to YP ;
Howard Falk to LYL, and Nina Falk later, but not at this meeting,
also to LYL.
Then there was a Marvin Engel, a college graduate of New York
City College, I believe, receiving his bachelor of arts degree in teach-
ing. Then there was a Zigmund Israel, who was from Pennsylvania.
Mr. Tavenner. How were these two persons assigned ?
The Witness. Marvin was assigned to LYL, and Zigmund Israel
to YP.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you able to identify any other of the New York
group? Did I understand you to say there is another one of these
Trachtenbergs from New York ?
The Witness. Yes ; there is a Max Trachtenberg and Joy Trachten-
berg, husband and wife. Max obtained employment in one of the
factories, but it was found that he was a Communist or closely asso-
ciated with it, and before his three months' period was up, was fired.
He then obtained employment with the city of Flint.^
His wife, Joy,^ was employed at the Flint Art Institute as a sec-
retary.
Mr. Tavenner. Were they and all the other persons you have men-
tioned, members of the Communist Party in Flint ?
The Witness. Yes ; they were.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, are there any others ?
The Witness. Then there was Jack Moscou. Jack Moscou attended
a college in New York. I believe it was City College. I do not know
if he graduated. He was assigned to YP and was a very popular
young man and had quite a bit of influence in producing members
for the YP.
Then there was Ted Karpell. Ted Karpell was assigned to YP.
Ted Karpell had college training in New York City, but he did not
acclimatize himself too well in Flint in that the industrial life did not
agree with him. As later testimony will probably produce, he left
Flint and returned to New York City. It was the feeling of his fellow
workers that he might be a Communist, and charges were preferred
against him, and there was a trial, and later he was found not guilty.
However, the workers felt that he was still a Communist, and they
were not very responsive to him. Shortly after, he left town, went to
New York.
Mr. Tavenner. Let us go back at this point to the meeting, Com-
munist Party meeting, in September 1949, which you were describing;
that is, the meeting at which it was decided to disband the Young
Cornmunist group of the Communist Party and assign individuals to
various organizations. Will you tell the committee, please, who were
present at this meeting as far as you can recall ?
The Witness, Bolza Baxter, who was assigned to LYL as it chair-
man, Louis Baxter, William Van der Does, Howard Falk, Paul Simon,
Jack Moscou, Marilyn, alias, Molly Baumkel, her husband Sherwood
or Jerry, Ted Karpell, Jimmy Zarichny, James.
1 Max Trachtenberg, now employed in Detroit, is under snbrena to appear before the
committee.
2 Joyzelle Shore Trachtenberg was formerly secretary to Len De Caux, when the latter
was editor of the CIO news.
5496 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. You have already stated to what organizations
those persons were assigned with the exception of Paul Simon and
Jack Moscou.
The Witness. Jack Moscou was assigned to YP, and Paul was taken
completely out of youth work and assigned to trade-union work. Then
there was Ted Karpell who was assigned to YP, Jimmy Zarichny to a
factory branch, and I believe it was Chevrolet. George Fox was as-
signed to his group branch to be active in the trade-union movement.
Martin Trachtenberg was assigned to his shop branch to be active in
the trade-union movement. Phyllis Trachtenberg was assigned to the
LYL. Paul Joseph, Jr. was assigned to LYL. Marvin Engel was as-
signed to LYL. Erwin Holland, YP.
Mr. Tavenner. If any of the persons who have been mentioned by
you have withdrawn from the Communist Party for any reason, and
that fact is known to you, you should state it.
The Witness. Erwin Holland was a member of the Communist
Party assigned to YP. However, he terminated his associations with
the Communist Party and later joined the Army and later was sent to
Korea and saw action, and as far as I know right now, he is not a
member of the Communist Party.
Zigmund Israel was assigned to LYL. He was later inducted into
service. Then there was Geneva Borod. Her name at that time was
Geneva Olmsted. She was assigned to LYL. Then there was Hank
Birdsell, Henry, known as Hank. He was assigned to LYL. I think
that is just about the bulk of the membership at that meeting at the
farm in September 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Were there any special qualifications considered in
assigning persons to one group or the other ; that is, to the Labor Youth
League or the Young Progressives ?
The Witness. I mentioned some of them earlier, and that was
whether they were residents of Flint in that division there. Some of
the people had worked with the YP at the time of the Wallace cam-
paign and were assigned to YP because they were active in this par-
ticular work, either in New York or in Michigan. The YP was to
assume a different role than the LYL, as I have explained before. Its
members were younger. They were to work with the students in Flint.
Some of them were more sociable in that they had more organizational
ability in social affairs.
The crux of the whole situation right here is that the Young Pro-
gressives were a non-Marxist group, but they were given the under-
standing that they should develop young Marxists out of this group,
to develop enough progressiveness within the YP to bring them over
to the LYL, and from the LYL there would be few, perhaps very
few, would become young Marxists. In other words, the level of the
political progressiveness of a person determined what organization
they went into. There were other considerations also, but this was the
primary function.
Mr. Tavenner. Were any Communist Party functionaries present
at the meeting of September 1949 which you have been describing?
The Witness. Yes. There was a Jack Gore. He was the chair-
man. State chairman, of the youth, and John Wliite, known as Jack
Wliite, who was the local functionary, chairman.^
1 Jnck (John) Whitp, former chairman of the G. M. Communist Club in Detroit, was at
this time chairman of the Flint section of the Communist Party, District No. 7. Now
residing in Detroit, he is currently under subpena.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5497
Mr. Tavenner. How were the assignments made which you have
described ?
The Witness. They were read from a list, and Jack Wliite read
them.
Mr. Tavenner. The assignments, therefore, had been determined
prior to the meeting and without the membership having any voice
in the making of the assignments ?
The Witness. Yes, they were determined prior to the meeting.
However, the group was asked if they agreed. Naturally everyone
agreed.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat type of functionary was Mr. White?
The Witness. Well, as far as I understand, he was the chairman
of the Communist Party for Flint and the northern section.
Mr. Tavenner. The northern section of the Communist Party?
The Witness. Well, it was the northern section of Michigan. I
mean, he had Flint which was the biggest city, but I believe that he
also contacted other people in Saginaw.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the leader of the Labor Youth League?
The Witness. In Flint?
Mr. Tavenner. In Flint.
The Witness. Bolza Baxter. Bolza was elected chairman of the
Flint Labor Youth League in Detroit, Mich., in June of 1949. At
that time I was not a member of the Communist Party, but I was
invited to a meeting which was held on Joy Road.^ I do not know
the address. Later, after a few persons congregated, we were in-
structed to go to another meeting place. I don't recall what this
meeting place was except that it was a church. There were approxi-
mately 75 to 100 persons at this meeting.
Various aspects of the organization of the LYL were discussed pro
and con, what the function of tlieLYL would be, as I have described
previously. This was a State meeting of the LYL, organization of the
LYL. This was a direct result of the May meeting which I have
described previously that was held in Chicago on the north side. The
September meeting was a result of this June meeting.
I might state on record now how I was invited to this meeting and
why I was permitted to attend it I cannot fathom because it was appar-
ent and very apparent that there were no non-Communists there, but
I was there.
After everyone had congregated, the doors were closed and guards
placed at the doors, and the meeting was called to order.
Mr. Tavenner. This was a meeting of the Labor Youth League,
organizational meeting ?
The Witness. It was an organization meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Of the Labor Youth League ?
The Witness. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Proceed, please.
The Witness. As I have stated before, the various aspects of the
youth groups were discussed, and it was pointed out how important
the Flint area was in the progressive movement. It was pointed out
that Flint was one of the first cities to organize in the trade unions,
and with the proper approach and with proper leadership, the poten-
tial was great. The person who could be best fitted for this task and
1 2705 Joy Road, Detroit, Mich.
48861— 54— pt. 8 2
5498 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OP MICHIGAN
who was a Negro was Bolza Baxter. It was pointed out that the
chairmanship should be assumed by a Negro because of the oppression
of the Negroes, and it would clearly indicate that the Labor Youth
League, a Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist organization, clearly was a
friend of the Negro people of Flint.
So therefore Jack Gore was assigned as State chairman, and Bolza
Baxter was assigned as the Flint chairman of the Labor Youth League.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the functioning of Communist Party members
discussed at this meeting ?
The Witness. Yes, they were. The Communists — and this is a
difficult thing to explain — were to function within the organizations
in which they were assigned. If a person was assigned to the LYL,
he would function within the realms of the LYL. He would be a
Communist first and always ; his ideology, his way of life, his organi-
zational ability within the LYL would remain on a Communist pat-
tern, but the LYL was not considered a Communist organization, and
it was never to be considered a Communist organization, but the leader-
ship were Communists, had intended to be Communists, and they were
to give direction to the people that were not Communists within the
LYL.
Basically the LYL was considered a Marxist-Leninist organization
and a working class organization, but the Communists within the
LYL were to function as Communists within that organization, but
this does not mean that all of the membership of the LYL were Com-
munists.
Mr. Tavenner. After becoming a member of the Communist Party
did you learn whether or not the officials of the Labor Youth League
were in fact members of the Communist Party ?
The Witness. Yes, the leadership of the Labor Youth League
were in fact and for all purposes members of the Communist Party.
The officers of the Labor Youth League were always elected Com-
munists. The meetings were such that because they took the initiative,
they would naturally be elected as its officers.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you describe to the committee, please, how the
Labor Youth League functioned ?
The Witness. I have described before the purpose of the LYL as
a Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist young people's organization. The LYL's
purpose was a militant one. They were to assume a working class
role. For instance, the LYL would not concern itself with obtaining
student rights to dance at the IMA, but the LYL was to concern
itself with procuring potential high school students who were, poten-
tial factory workers to join the organization to obtain higher wages
or to distribute handbills or to picket for them. Their motives were to
be classically a working class motive.
The Labor Youth League's role was to recruit young people of a
working class background. They were not interested in procuring
memberships from sororities, from church groups, who were not in
sympathy with them, but with church groups wlio had a congrega-
tion of working class background. The Labor Youth League was to
attract these young persons, not through literature directly, but
through a broad social and cultural program.
For instance, they would have a dance. At this dance they would
have food, possibly beer, and they were to publicize that the Labor
Youth League would be having a dance. Wlien the dance occurred
COMMUlsnST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5499
and everyone was in good spirits, someone would make a plea for the
defense of the current Communist on trial, and these people would
have their first initiation from most loquacious and eloquent speakers
of the martyrdom of the Communist on trial.
After the dance they would be invited to a class which would be
held every Wednesday night in which various social problems would
be discussed, such as the liberation of the Negro people, strikes, war
and peace, unemployment, and et cetera, et cetera. These classes
would not be based on an intellectual basis. They would be brought
down to the level of understanding of the persons attending them.
Very often they would go off on a tangent when a Communist would
forget himself and become "too Marxist", but they always had their
little hands slapped when this occurred.
It was through these classes that many persons joined the LYL,
feeling that there was something to offer because of the interest of
this particular organization in the problems of everyday life.
Mr. Tavenner. To what extent, if any, were these meetings planned
and organized in advance by members of the Communist Party?
The Witness. The educational classes were publicized, and enroll-
ment blanks were sent out that there would be a discussion, for
instance, on Negro rights. Negro young people would be invited to
attend. It was assumed that the known Communists would attend
the meeting along with the non-Communists who had just come to the
meeting out of curiosity, or perhaps they were just free that evening
or a friend of theirs was attending. The classes would start out simply
by saying to perhaps a young Negro who was attending, "Do you think
tliat you have full Negro rights under the Constitution of the United
States? After all, in the Constitution" — they would use this — "it
says life, liberty, and justice for all. Do you think that you have
justice?"
The answer would usually be in a negative phrase because the young
student would not know how to answer it. Understandably he
couldn't say yes, and understandably he couldn't very well say no.
He didn't know why the question was being asked.
Then a young Negro comrade would say, "Well, I don't think I've
got my rights. I am not paid as much in the shop ; I am not upgraded
in the shop. They will make one a foreman that hasn't been working
there as long as I have. I can't live on the same side of the street as
the white people. I don't think I have my rights. Do you think you
have yours?"
Then naturally the young Negro student would say no. lYom this
line of questioning there would be other subjects entered into the dis-
cussion such as, "What do you think of the Ku Klux Klan?"
Naturally they would disapprove of the Ku Klux Klan.
"What do you think of a lynch mob?" Naturally they would dis-
approve of a lynch mob. In all of these lines of questioning in these
educational classes it was very, very hard for the student to say no.
The questions were so simple and yet so complex that they had to say,
"Well, I agree." This would immediately put them on the affirmative
to the discussion and make them more receptive.
Before you knew what would happen, the solution to the question
was Marxist, and most generally the young Negro students would agree
to the Marxist solution to the question. All in all the Communists
controlled the educational classes because they had the answers. There
5500 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
was no give and take because if a young student happened to disagi-ee,
there were many young Communists that were only too numerous and
only too willing to show him how he was wrong. The young student
would be outnumbered.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the principal leaders in the Labor Youth
League who took charge of these educational meetings, or so-called
educational meetings?
The Witness. Bolza Baxter, Louis Baxter, Howard Falk, Marvin
Engel.
Mr. Tavenner. You have identified each of these persons as mem-
bers of the Communist Party ?
The Witness. Yes ; I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the shop workers attend the same classes as
the other persons you have described ?
The Witness. Well, they had what they call a shop branch of the
Labor Youth League. These were second shift workers who could
not attend in the evening. Their chairman was Marvin Engel, and
they would meet at LYL headquarters, and their educational classes
were similar to the ones held in the evening. I assume that they had
quite a bit of membership. I think it was about 22 young shop work-
ers that would meet.
Mr. Tavenner. In these various discussions was the Korean war
issue presented ?
The Witness. Yes, and I want to go on record as saying right
now — and when I heard it, it made my stomach turn — when the State
chairman of the LYL visited Flint, the Korean war was in progress
and our American boys were fighting so desperately and not being
able to move because of the various political aspects, and the Chinese
moved in on them, there was glee, and Jack Gore, the State chairman,
made this remark: "When we push them right back, we will push
them right back into the sea, and they will drown them all." They
said that they would show them when they were pushed back, when
the UN forces were pushed back into the sea, and when the Chinese
Reds got the planes, thej^'d blast the hell out of the whole business and
maybe blast the hell out of the UN, too. That is what he said.
Mr. Tavenner. This is a good place to stop.
Mr. Clardy. Let us recess at this point. We will adjourn until 7
o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 5 : 36 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 7 p. m. of the same day.)
evening session
(At the hour of 7: 15 p. m. of the same day, the proceedings were
resumed. Representative Kit Clardy being present.)
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
TESTIMONY OF WITNESS X— Continued
Mr. Tavenner. Will you continue with your statement with ref-
erence to the attitude taken by the Communist Party on the issues of
the Korean war.
The Witness. Ideologically the Korean war presented quite an
issue to the Labor Youth League. Feelings ran high. Generally the
COMMUISriST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5501
non-Communist membership did not like to side in with the Com-
munist feeling on the Korean situation. There was a natural repul-
sion against any force which hindered their own brothers. However,
the Communist faction of the Labor Youth League were often able
to plant seeds of doubt as to the reason for the war, pointing out that
it was a war of the manufacturers, a war of profit, and a war to stop
depression, which would have been a natural sequence in a capitalistic
form of government.
How far they succeeded to this end I have no way of ascertaining,
as anyone has no way of ascertaining what seeds are planted in a
person's mind or when they will bear fruit, but I am sure that some
damage was done.
Throughout Marxist philosophy the Communists have always de-
termined that the capatilistic form of government needs war in order
to perpetuate its own aims because it is such a decadent system of
politics, because it only seeks gain for the advantage of a few, because
it is a selfish philosophy — it can only be successful through blood-
shed ; therefore, when the capitalists, the munitions makers, the man-
ufacturers, the Du Fonts, the Rockefellers, call the Communist Party
a party of force and violence, the Communists maintain that it is only
because they use force and violence, and this was perpetuated through
the Korean war — quote — "What better example of force and violence
than the Korean war ?"
It was pointed out that after the Second World War the economic
situation in the United States had a terrible setback, that if it had
not been for the Korean war there would have been a depression far
more terrible than the one that the country suffered in the thirties.
The Americans perpetuated the Korean situation through the name
of the United Nations to save themselves.
Very often a nonmember of the Communist Party would ask if the
Russians also were not aggressors because of the manner in which
they were solving the situation in their occupied countries in Europe.
It was always brought out that the U. S. S. R., the Soviet Union, did
not have the same incentive that the United States had; that the
U. S. S. R. was a democratic force. If the argument should happen
to continue, or the person questioning had enough foresight to con-
tinue to badger away, he again suffered the painful monopoly in the
meeting. It was always brought out that the U. S. S. R. was the peo-
ple's country, a dictatorship of the proletariat. Never during these
discussions did the Communists say that there was no dictatorship in
Russia, but they always pointed out that there was a dictatorship of
the proletariat.
The Korean situation was likened to a small war, and it was gen-
erally pointed out in these educational forums that there was no need
for war, but it was unlikely that there would have been no war. The
capitalists and the Communists would always be at crossed swords,
but the capitalist, through its own folly, would cause its own plunder,
that when the people really became politicallv informed — and it was
up to this Marxist organization to see that tWy were politically in-
formed — that there would be this utopia of the dictatorship of the
proletariat.
Mr. Tavenner. Were there any situations under which the Labor
Youth League made contributions directly or indirectly to the Com-
munist Party ?
5502 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF l^nCHlGAN
The Witness. What kind of contribution do you mean? Do you
mean a financial contribution ?
Mr. Taitsnner. Financial contribution.
The Witness. That is a rather hard question to answer, and this is
not factual information, but just hearsay. I want that to be on record.
The Labor Youth League was a separate organization in that it func-
tioned financially on its own. The dues that were taken from the
members were used to support Labor Youth League activities.
However, they also were given to the State chairman very often, and
what he did with them I don't know.
Mr. Taa^enner. The State chairman of
The Witness. Jack Gore, the State chairman of the Labor Youth
League. However, the contribution that they made theoretically to
perpetuate the aims of the Communist Party were very fruitful.
Mr. Tavenner. You have stated that various Communist Party
members were assigned to the Young Progressive organization. What
is the distinction between the Young Progressives and the Progressive
Party?
The Witness. The YP, the Young Progressives, and the Progres-
sive Party were two separate and distinct organizations. All Com-
munist Party members automatically joined the Progressive Party.
The Progressive Party was considered — and I suppose is still con-
sidered — a workingman's party, a leftish party, and that it was their
duty and their obligation to become a member of it.
The history of the Progressive Party is well known. It originated
at the time of Henry Wallace's campaign for the presidential elec-
tions in 1948.
The Young Progressives were not of voting age. The Progressive
Party is a party of voters, with its proper place on the ballot and its
candidates et cetera, that are considered a regular political party ap-
paratus. The Young Progressives did not function in the same way
the Progressive Party did at all for the simple reason that the Pro-
gressive Party was concerned primarily with political issues, and the
YP were considered as primarily concerned with educational issues
which could not be voted on, although they would oftentimes lend a
hand with political issues, but on a nonvoting basis.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the young Communists who were assigned from
the youth group of the Communist Party to the Young Progressives
occupy positions of leadership in much the same manner as in the
Labor Youth League ?
The Witness. The organization of the YP was slightly different
than it was with the Labor Youth League, but the Communist faction
in the YP assumed just about the same relationship to the organiza-
tion as the Communist leadership did in the LYL. They were the
organizers of the club and helped perpetuate Marxist conception to
the youngsters.
You must remember, however, that the YP was more of a social
group than the LYL, bringing out this fact always, that the Labor
Youth League was a Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist organization, and the
YP was not.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, how the Young
Progressives operated ?
The Witness. I was not a member of the YP. I only know how
they operated through discussions. I did not see it in action too much.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5503
The Young Progressives worked with individuals within the schools.
They worked with individuals within their own club.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive at any time an assignment as
a Communist Party member to work within the Progressive Party?
The Witness. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee about that, please?
The Witness. Shirley Foster was president. Lloyd Dantzler
was treasurer, and the other Communists had various duties, and
usually the primary function of the Progressive Party was taken over
by the Communists.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with a person by the name
of Morton Leitson ?
The Witness. Yes, I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
The Witness. I have never met Mort Leitson in a Communist
Party meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time have a conversation with him
regarding the question of his Communist Party membership?
The Witness. At various times we would discuss the Progressive
issue, the political issue, and from his answers it could be concluded
that he was most sympathetic to Communist ideology. At one time
he did state to me that he was a member of the Communist Party while
he was a law student at the University of Michigan. However, the
dates I do not recall.
Mr. Tavenner. In what profession or occupation was Mr. Leit-
son engaged ?
The Witness. Attorney at law.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether there was a professional
cell or group of the Communist Party in Flint, Mich. ?
The Witness. I do not know if there was a professional cell in
Flint. I do know for a fact that the professional group in Flint
were not to consider themselves Communists; they were not to be
active in the same capacity as other Communists, that they were to
play an entirely different role. They were to integrate themselves
on a left Marxist level because of their associations within the bar
et cetera.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee has received a great deal of evidence
indicating that in professional groups the membership was kept secret
from rank and file members of the Communist Party. But I wanted
to know whether or not you knew that there was such an organized
group in Flint, although you may not have known the names of any
of the members.
The Witness. You mean if I know that there was such a group ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
The Witness. I do not know if there was such a group.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee to what extent the Com-
munist Party, through its members and acting as a party, projected
its influence and the issues in which it was involved into the Progres-
sive Party?
The Witness. I will try to answer that question to the best of my
ability. The leadership of the Progressive Party after the Wallace
campaign was primarily a Communist one. Now, if the leadership
of the Progressive Party was a Communist one, wouldn't it stand to
5504 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
reason that many of the objectives of the Progressive Party follow-
ing the presidential campaign in 1948 would be endorsed by the Com-
munist Party. Now, some of the issues that the Progressive Party
had, such as the Korean situation, unemployment, farm-subsidy pro-
gram, the question of Negro rights, the defense of the Communists,
were very parallel in essence to the thinking of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the Communist Party members caucus sepa-
rately and act upon the programs in advance of their presentation
to Progressive Party meetings ?
The Witness. Mr. Tavenner, they almost didn't have to really be-
cause, you see, they would come from a Communist meeting or have
these issues definitely determined in their minds and what would hap-
pen is that they would go to a Progressive Party meeting and just
expound the same theory only with slight variation from Marxism.
There is a definite difference. There is an explanation of Marxism
in theory, but you can twist it around in phraseology and use it in a
progressive way and call it Progressive Party business. It is really
quit a simple operation to do. The issues that were solved in the
Communist Party meeting would just go right into the Progressive
Party meetings, that is all. It needs no further elaboration as far as
that goes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Jack White hold any position in the Progres-
sive Party at that time ?
The Witness. None whatsoever.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he hold any position in the Communist Party ?
The Witness. Yes, he did.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that position ?
The Witness. Organizer for the Flint area.
Mr. Tavenner. How did the Progressive Party raise funds to con-
duct its campaign ?
The Witness. Through parties which were usually held at the
Pioneer Hall, through picnics, and various social private affairs.
Mr. Tavenner. Were the sums raised by those methods and by
donations substantial ?
The Witness. I would say they were substantial, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You have told us who was the treasurer of the Pro-
gressive Party, but I do not recall the name.
The Witness. Lloyd Dantzler for a period of time, but it was very
haphazard type of acting as a treasurer.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you have testified that he was also a mem-
ber of the Communist Party, have you not ?
The Witness. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what disposition was made of the
funds raised by the methods you have described ?
The Witness. Yes, I do.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee about that, please?
The Witness. Well, very often when these affairs were held they
were quite lucrative. There were always a great many Communists
attending these affairs, and the money that was taken in was used for
obtaining literature and supplies, but I know for a fact that there must
have been more money taken in than was actually stated on the books
and that was used for supplies and literature, and it is my supposition
on good ground that some of it went to the organizer of the Flint area.
Mr. Tavenner. The organizer of the Communist Party ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5505
The Witness. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether any sums raised for the Pro-
gressive Party were turned over to State leaders of the Progressive
Party?
Tlie Witness. Yes, they were.
Mr. Tavenner. Were any of the funds turned over, to your personal
knowledge, to any members of the Communist Party who were not
officials of the Progressive Party ?
The Witness. On a State basis?
Mr. Tavenner. On any basis.
The Witness. Just some of it that was turned over to the organizer
of the Flint area.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the organizer in the Flint area?
The Witness. Jack White.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you, while a member of the Communist Party,
engage in activity in any other mass organizations at the direction of
the Communist Party ?
The Witness. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. What were those organizations ?
The Witness. National Association for the Advancement of Colored
People, Civil Rights Congress, Michigan Committee for the Protection
of the Foreign Born, National Negro Labor Council.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee has received evidence indicating that
the Communists were not successful on a national scale in infiltrating
the NAACP ; they were generally unsuccessful. Was this true of the
Flint area ?
The Witness. I would say that in Flint they were generally suc-
cessful.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee on what you base your
statement?
The Witness. There were certain people assigned to work within
the NAACP. Everyone that was a progressive was instructed to join
the NAACP, but there were certain individuals assigned to work with-
in the youth groups of the NAACP. These people were Louis Baxter,
Dorothy Moscou, Geneva Olmsted Borod and Murray Olmsted Borod
and other members of the Progressive Party such as Morton Leitson
and Hanny Leitson and Barry Blassingame, Shirley Foster and How-
ard Foster, Chuck Shinn. All of the Communists were instructed to
be very active in the NAACP and to support its program. At meet-
ings they would very often introduce resolutions that were to further
the Communist aims, and very often they were successful.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any extensive knowledge of the opera-
tions of the Communist Party within the Civil Rights Congress?
The Witness. I know that the Civil Rijxhts Congress is dominated
by the Communists. I know the Civil Rights Congress is a Com-
munist organization.
Mr. Clardy. Do I understand you were a member, but not active
init?
The Witness. They wanted me to start a chapter in Flint, but I
didn't have the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee as nearly as you can
what the strength of these various organizations was at the peak period
which we have discussed; that is, the Labor Youth League, the Young
Progressives, and the Progressive Party ?
5506 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
The Witness. There was a membership in the Labor Youth League
of about 102 in number. There was a membership of the YP of about
54. The Communist Party had about 87 or 88, and in the Progressive
Party at its peak period, 500.
Mr. Tavenner. That is, in Flint?
The Witness. In Flint.
Mr. Ta^^nner. Do you know how the work within the Labor Youth
League in Flint compared with the work of that organization through
the State generally ?
The Witness. The Labor Youth League of Flint was considered
the most successful and militant league in the State of Michigan.
Very often Jack Gore, State chairman, would commend Flint for the
excellent job that was being done. Very often they would cite Flint
as an example as what could be done with groups of people. This
success was attributed to Mr. Baxter — that is Bolza Baxter — and his
militant leadership.
The Labor Youth League in Flint was the only one that had its
separate headquarters, was the only one that maintained a separate
office, and it was financially very successful, often contributing to the
State Labor Youth League.
The Labor Youth League in Flint was the one that had the most
constructive educational program, the most constructive social pro-
gram, and the most successful in its membership per ratio of the popu-
lation of Flint.- It was the league that was most often commended
for the element of working class youths who were members ; a good 70
percent of them or 75 percent of them were factory workers, and a
good majority were young Negro members.
Mr. Tavenner. Did any local members of the Labor Youth League
receive State or National recognition for their services ?
The Witness. Yes, they did.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Will you tell the committee about that?
The Witness. Bolza Baxter received State and National recogni-
tion.
Mr. Tavenner. In what form?
The Witness. He was later appointed State chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Bolza Baxter attended any
training school of the Communist Party at any time ?
The Witness. Yes, he attended the Jefferson School of Social Sci-
ence in New York City. I believe it is located on the Avenue of the
Americas.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know when he attended the school ?
The Witness. 1946 or 1947.
The Tavenner, How do you know that fact ?
The Witness. He told me.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you recognized at any time in a similar way
for the work that you had done in the Communist Party ?
The Witness. Yes, I was sent to the Jefferson School of Social
Science.
Mr. Ta%^nner. When did you attend the school ?
The Witness. 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you in attendance ?
The Witness. Three weeks.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliy was it the Communist Party sent you to this
school ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5507
The WiTisrESS. They wanted to develop me.
Mr. Tavenner. For what purpose ?
The Witness. So I could be a better Marxist.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee in your own words,
please, the type of training you received at that school ?
The Witness. Wlien I arrived at this school, I was introduced to
Doxey Wilkerson who was educational director of the school, and to
Howard somebody or other who runs the thing. I was given the
privilege of attending the class of Negro history, economics, political
economy — let me put it this way : Because of my classification, I was
permitted to sit in on three other classes, one of which was Marxism
and culture.
Mr, Tavenner. Were you called upon at any time to give the school
or any class at which you were in attendance a description of trade-
union problems at Flint ?
The Witness. Yes, I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Were other students called upon to give similar ex-
periences from the areas from which they came ?
The Witness. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you given any courses of instruction other
than in the classroom that you have described ?
The Witness. Yes, I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you tell the committee about it?
The Witness. Well, I was taken to a demonstration by one of the
comrades in New York City, and I never knew the comrade's real
names in New York, incidentally, except my instructors. You either
called them by a pseudoname or you called them by their first name.
This Puerto Kican was given the assignment of taking me to this
demonstration. I believe it was for Kosalie Ingram, and we were
to walk down Eighth Avenue, I guess, by the Village, either in pairs
or singly, about six feet apart and we were to walk about a four-block
area, and then we were to walk a little faster until we saw the comrade
in a red polo shirt, and when we saw him turn, we were to go into
a slight trot, walking quite rapidly, and by the time he reached a
certain store front or place of designation, we all congregated together
and then started the demonstration.
Mr. Clardt. They all converged from different angles ?
The WriNESs. Yes, and when we all met, we were in the center.
Mr. Clardt. Then what you would have would be columns
approaching a common spot from different angles and different
streets converging on the one place.
The Witness. You know how the streets in New York go this way
[indicating] .
Mr. Cardy. I do, down in the Village particularly.
The Witness. They don't go around, but they go this way, but then
they would meet, like some would go down an alley. I can draw you
a diagram better.
Mr. Clardt. You are describing it all right. Let me recapitulate
for a moment. As I understand it, when the demonstration gets under
way, the individuals are strung out on each of the streets for a distance
of 4 to 5 blocks, and then they close ranks gradually until the very
last minute they get into almost a run until they get right at the point
where everybody meets everybody else.
5508 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
The Witness. Yes, that is correct, and then when we all met, and
we were to have this demonstration by shouting and producing plac-
ards, within a 10- or 15-minute lapse the police were to come on horses
and this was to be expected, and we were instructed to let the horses
get near us but to duck either under the legs, so that the observers were
thinking that the police were coming at us, and then we y^ere to go
under the legs and duck in a doorway and then away.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the purpose of making it appear that you
were ducking under the legs of the horses'^
The Witness. That there was police brutality.
Mr. Appell. And that the horses were running you down?
The Witness. Yes. If anyone took a picture, then it would look
like that.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you taken on this demonstration as a part of
your course of training?
Mr. Appell. Did they tell you you might have to use this same tactic
in Flint?
The Witness. Yes, at some time in the future.
Mr. Tavenner. What were the names of your professors?
The Witness. Herbert Aptheker and George ( )^ political
economy, and John Howard Lawson.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you learn the names of the students in attend-
ance at this school?
The Witness. Not very many, no.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you give us the names of those you do
remember ?
The Witness. No, I can't give you those names. But I know that
some of them were sent from out of town, too, and one of them was a
schoolteacher from New Britain, Conn.
Mr. Tavenner. What arrangements were made at the school for
lodging ?
The Witness. I boarded with a comrade who worked in the school.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know her name?
The Witness. Her first name is Winnie. I never did learn her last
name.
Mr. Tavenner. In the early part of your testimony you told us of
the Young Communist group which was disbanded at the time you
were assigned to work in the Labor Youth League. After that time
were you assigned to any group or unit of the Communist Party ?
The Witness. Yes, I was.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the group?
The Witness. Community Club, CP.
Mr. Tavenner. How many community clubs were there in Flint,
if you know?
The Witness. One.
Mr. Tavenner. How many belonged to the club?
The Witness. Nine.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee their names, please?
The Witness. Bolza Baxter, Louis Baxter, Nadine Baxter, Lola
Van der Does, Shirley Fox, Bruce Widmark, Pauline Widmark, Elsie
White, but she never attended a meeting, and Mary Foster, Joy Trach-
tenberg, Phyllis Trachtenberg, Max Trachtenberg, Betty Thomas,^
1 Fall name not remembered by witness.
2 Mrs. Al Mayen.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5509
but she moved back to Detroit before the meetings were really in
session.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know Betty Thomas' present name?
The Witness. Mayen.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the officers of the neighborhood group?
The Witness. Shirley Foster, Phyllis Trachtenberg, and Louis
Baxter. That is as much as I can remember. If I remember it cor-
rectly, Shirley was chairman, Phyllis was the treasurer, and Louis
was educational — or it could have been that Phyllis was education and
Louis was treasurer, but they were the officers.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there a section committee or council of the
Communist Party?
The Witness. You mean within the community branch ?
Mr. Tavenner. Within the Flint area.
The Witness. Yes, there was.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. "Wlio were on that council ?
The Witness. If I remember correctly, if I recall rightly, Chuck
Shinn, Jack White, and Bolza Baxter. These are the three I know.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee, please, the names of
any other persons in Flint who are known to you to be members of
the Communist Party ?
The Witness. Clive Mayle, he is a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Pearl Potter Kelly ?
The Witness. She is a member.
Mr. Tavenner. Thomas Kelly ?
The Witness. He is a member.
Mr. Tavenner. Casper Kenny ?
The Witness. He is a member.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Gerald Seiger ?
The Witness. Yes, I knew him.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party ?
The Witness. Yes, he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Gerald Seiger one of those classified by you
as a colonizer?
The Witness. Yes, he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Barry Blassingame ?
The Witness. Yes, he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Julius Dantzler ?
The Witness. He is a Communist.
Mr. Tavenner. Mary Dantzler ?
The Witness. She is a Communist.
Mr. Tavenner. Zina Brandi, now Zina Brandi Haskell ?
The Witness. Ray's wife ? Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Richard Fox ?
The Witness. He is a Communist. He is not from Flint, though.
Mr. Appell. Where is Richard Fox from ?
The Witness. Lansing, at the time that I knew him.
Mr. Tavenner. Martin Glaberman?
The Witness. Yes, he is a Communist.
Mr. Tavenner. You have replied in some instances that these in-
dividuals are Communists. By that did you mean were Communists
at the time you were in the party ?
The Witness. Yes, that is right.
5510 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavennek. Did you remain in the conununity section of the
Communist Party during the remainder of the time that you were
a member of the party ?
The Witness. No one remained a member of that group.
Mr. Tavenner. What happened to the group ?
The Witness. It was broken up into cells of 3 to 5.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the purpose of that ?
The Witness. Well, for security measures.
Mr. Tavenner. When did that take place ?
The Witness. The latter part of 1951, the fii-st part of 1952.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did this small group to which you were as-
signed hold its meeting 'i
The Witness. Oh, various places ; sometimes in the home of Shirley
Foster, sometimes in automobiles. It depended on the meeting place.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the other members of your group?
The Witness. Louis Baxter, Gene Baxter, Shirley Foster, and my-
self, and part of the time Nadine Baxter who was at one time married
to Bolza.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you receive Communist Party directives
and literature while you were in this group ?
The Witness. The directives came to the chairman who was Shir-
ley Foster, and the literature was brought to us by Bob Lukes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did any other person besides Bob Lukes serve
as a contact with your group ?
The Witness. Yes, Martin Trachtenberg who was on the Flint sec-
tion committee.
Mr. Tavenner. When was the last time that you saw him in the
party ?
The Witness. The last time I saw him in the party was when he
came to one of our branch meetings which was in April of 1952. He
came to give us a directive.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of the directive, if you recall ?
The Witness. He asked that anyone who did not have the stam-
ina, who did not have the steel within him as Stalin was named steel
be given an opportunity to get out of the party as the party did not
want to have anyone but persons who were as steel as Stalin was
named steel.
Martin Trachtenberg was the organizer at the time and had taken
the place of the organizer who had left, was directed by Detroit to
go to all of these cells and convey his message. He was instructed
to tell the people of the party of the critical period to come, that the
United States Government was going to lose the Democratic elec-
tion and that the Republicans were going to be elected and that the
activities of the various investigation agencies such as the Un-Amer-
ican Activities Committee would be more prominent, and this sum
and total was to be a period of fascism just as the Reichstag fires
were started. The fires in the United States were starting, and fas-
cism would be the role before socialism, that anyone who didn't have
the stamina to fight them, the party was giving them the alternative
to get out. Everyone at the meeting decided to stay in. There was
p;oing to be an assessment of $20 which everyone .was to pay accord-
ing to their ability. They also said that the color red was a beauti-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5511
ful color, but that blood might flow and that blood was also red. He
also said if anybody's blood is yellow, then they should get out.
Mr. Tavenner. How long after that was it that you terminated
your membership within the party ?
The Witness. Shortly afterward.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. I want to thank you and let you know that the com-
mittee appreciates the very great help that you have given to us.
That concludes tonight's session, and we will adjourn at this time.
(Whereupon at 10 p. m., the hearing was adjourned.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— Part 8
(Flint)
WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 1954
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American ^^ctivities,
Flint, Mich.
public hearing
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, pursuant to recess, at 9 : 36 a. m., Supervisors Room, Courthouse,
Hon. Kit Clardy (acting chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman of the full committee), and Kit Clardy (presiding).
Staff mmebers present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; Donald T.
Appell and W. Jackson Jones, investigators; and Mrs. Juliette P.
Joray, acting clerk.
Mr. Velde. The subcommittee will be in order, please. Before com-
mencing the hearing, may I say to the good people of Flint, the good
people from the State of Michigan, that I certainly appreciate the
welcome that I received here in the city of Flint and the State of
Michigan. I have been in the State of Michigan many times, caught
a few of your fish here and have done a little hunting in the great
State of Michigan. I have also driven several of the cars that are
manufactured here in the great city of Flint and in the city of Detroit.
I have also had one repossessed.
I do recognize, however, that I do not know as much about sub-
versive influences and the Communist Party here in the State of
Michigan as does my very good colleague, Mr. Clardy, who is a very
able Representative in the Congress of the United States.
So, therefore, due to the fact that last year, almost a year ago, I
believe it was, I appointed you as chairman of the subcommittee to
handle the hearings here in the State of Michigan, I am now turning
the gavel over to your own good Representative in the United States
Congress, Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Due to the fact that probably many of you who will appear as wit-
nesses here today did not attend the hearings we held at Detroit and at
Lansing, there are a few announcements that I think should be made,
the customary ones that Mr. Velde makes when the full committee is
meeting or when a subcommittee of which he made himself chairman
presides.
5513
48861— 54— ,pt. 8 3
5514 COMlMUlSriST activities in the state of MICHIGAN
The third member, incidentally, Mr, IMoulder, who had to leave for
Washington on committee business, will not return, but we expect a
third member to be with us for tomorrow and the next day if they
complete some of their assignments that they are undertaking in
Washington at the present time.
One thing that we wish to emphasize is that during the progress
of the hearing we want you to remember that this subcommittee is an
arm of the Congress of the United States and that we must have and
must maintain absolute quiet throughout the proceedings. There
will be no demonstrations of either approval or disapproval at any
time during the progress of the hearings. The rules under which we
operate have been pretty widely publicized, but one or two points
should be emphasized before we commence. Every witness appear-
ing before our committee under our printed rules is permitted to be
accompanied by counsel. Counsel, of course, is to restrict himself to
advising his client on his constitutional rights if the witness desires
such advice.
If any witness desires to have a motion made and filed — and one
of the attorneys handed us a series of motions dealing with each of
the several witnesses who will appear — those motions may be filed with
us, and they will be given consideration and disposed of immme-
diately.
No witness, however, who takes the stand will be permitted to com-
mence with a statement. After he is sworn and after he has an-
swered questions — and by "answered" I mean answered and not refused
to answer on the grounds of the fifth or other amendments — if, after
he has done the answering, he desires to have a statement pertinent
to the issues, he will be permitted to make that statement.
If he does not answer questions, at no time during the progress of
the hearing under our rules is it permissible for any statement to be
made by such witness.
A great many other questions will arise as we go along, but prac-
tically every situation has been anticipated and covered by the rules,
and if any one of the witnesses has any question at any time during
the progress, the witness, not counsel, may address that question to the
Chair, and we will endeavor to resolve it.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Yes.
Mr. Velde. Before going further, I think the record should show
that I have appointed Mr. Clardy as chairman of the subcommittee,
myself as a member, and with Mr. Doyle of California as a member
of this sulocommittee. We expect that Mr. Doyle will be here later
on in the day or possibly tomorrow.
Mr. Clakdy. Now, with that, Mr. Tavenner, are you ready to call
your first witness
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clakdy. You may do so.
Mr. Tavenner. Will Mrs. Beatrice Churchill come forward, please.
Mr. Clardy. You do solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give will he the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mrs. Churchill. I do.
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated. Wliile we are getting ready for
her to testify, there is one other thing, perhaps, I should note. If^
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5515
during the progress of a witness' testimony, he has no desire to be
photographed, he need only make the request of the committee, and his
wishes will be acceded to. However, until after he has been sworn, the
photographers may take such photographs as they desire.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tanexner. What is your name, please?
TESTIMONY OF BEATRICE CHURCHILL
Mrs. Churchill. Beatrice Churchill.
Mr, Tavenner. Mrs. Churchill, it is noted that you are not accom-
panied by counsel.
Mrs. Churchill. I am not
Mr. Tavenner. It is the practice of the committee to advise all
witnesses that they have the right to have counsel with them if they
desire, and the right at any time during their testimony to consult
counsel. Do you desire to proceed without counsel ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside, ]Mrs. Churchill ?
Mrs. Churchill. I live at G-208() South Center Road.
Mr, Tavenner. Mrs. Churchill, I believe that at a comparatively
recent date you were a witness in the Smith Act trials in Detroit, is that
correct ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Tavenner. It appeared from your testimony in the Smith Act
cases that you had been employed by the Federal Bureau of Investiga-
tion to do certain work within the Communist Party.
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I have been,
Mr, Tavenner. Did you act as an undercover agent for the Federal
Bureau of Investigation ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Tavenner. AYill you tell the committee, please, when you were
first consulted regarding such a project?
Mrs. Churchill. I was contacted first in 1942, and I went to open
meetings of the Communist Party, and I worked very closely with a
Communist by the name of Doc Maddock at the AC local.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the spelling of the last name,
please ?
Mrs. Churchill, It is M-a-d-d-o-c-k, and he was a member of the
Communist Party, and he very often advised me actually what was
going on in these meetings because he worked very closely in the union.
Mr, Tavenner. Let us stop at that moment to find what the nature
of your employment was at that time.
Mrs. Churchill. I worked at AC Spark Plug.
Mr. Tavenner. In what year was this that you were first inter-
viewed ?
Mrs. Churchill, 1942.
Mr. Tavenner. And you were a member of the local which existed
in that plant ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. What local was that ?
Mrs. Churchill. Local 651.
Mv. Tavenner. Now, will you tell the committee, please, what tran-
spired in connection with your getting into the Communist Party ?
5516 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. Churchill. Well, to begin with, I was in the Workers' Alli-
ance which was a Communist front in the early thirties.
Mr. Clardy. The name again ?
Mrs. Churchill. The Workers' Alliance. And I had the position of
a comnrttee woman there. I was working on the WPA project, and
I was pretty active at that time, and they knew this because they had
been investigating the Workers' Alliance.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean the
Mrs. Churchill. The FBI.
Mr. Tavenner. The FBI knew it ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes. One time when I came home from work
in the afternoon, in 1942, some of my neighbors came over and told
me that there were two men had been investigating me all afternoon,
and they thought they were detectives, and they wondered what I
had done, and I commenced to wonder what I had done myself, so
along about 11 o'clock that night they came back, and they asked me
how I felt about the Communist Party, and I told them that I cer-
tainly didn't approve of the Communist Party, and they Avanted to
know if I would be willing to work with them, and I told them that
I would be glad to, and then by working with Doc Maddock very
closely, later he got me an application into the Communist Party.
Mr. Tam2Nner. You had never been a member of the Communist
Party before you were encouraged to work for the Federal Bureau of
Investigation ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I had not.
Mr. Tavenner. Proceed.
Mrs. Churchill. So Doc Maddock got me an application, and it
was accepted, and that was the step that got me into the part}^
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat year was it that you actually became a member
of the Communist Party for the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I thought that was at sometime in 1946,
the early part of 1946, but I was advised by Mr. Goodman in Detroit
that it was in May 1945. They had the records, evidently.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned to a group or cell of the Com-
munist Party when you became a member ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I was assigned to the AC-Fisher group.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was that located ?
Mrs. Churchill. Here in Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you describe a little more what the AC-Fisher
group meant?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course the AC-Fisher group meant that
the people — that belonged to the Communist Party, the members of
the Communist Party — were formed into the group, and that at that
particular time it didn't matter too much how many people were in
a group, and so they combined various people throughout the city,
and the group I was assigned to was AC-Fisher.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member of that group
of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Up until the time I was taken out of activity,
which was in the latter part of 1950, 1 believe.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat do you mean by "being taken out of activity" ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, our organizer came to me and told me that
they wanted to take me out for underground work.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5517
Mr. Tavenner. We will discuss that a little later. So you were a
member of the AC-Fisher group from May 1945 until you went in
the underground in 1950, is that right ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right, yes.
Mr, Tavenner. Did you acquire any position of leadership within
the AC-Fisher group of the Commmiist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes. To begin with, I was the secretary treasurer.
Then later I became the chairman of the AC-Fisher group, and group,
and then I was appointed or elected to the section committee which is
the highest body in Genessee Valley.
Mr. Tavenner. I think it may be well at this point for you to tell
the organizational setup of the Connnunist Party here in Flint; that
is, how the groups were formed, what the section organization meant.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course the groups were formed — we had
industrial groups, which included Fisher Body, AC, and Chevrolet,
and Buick.
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me, will you not go quite so rapidly there.
Wliat were the industrial groups ?
Mrs. Churchill. Fisher Body, AC, Chevrolet, and Buick, and then
we had a group which we called the third ward.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Now, those were the various groups. Did those
groups com]3rise what is usually referred to as a section of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, the groups make up the section.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. AVliat was the name of the section ?
Mrs. Churchill. Saginaw Valley at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the name changed ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, no.
Mr. Tavenner. Saginaw Valley section of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, but during this time, the early part, this Sag-
inaw Valley section included Ppntiac, but in 1948 Pontiac was taken
out of our section.
Mr. Tavenner. "What section was Pontiac put in ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I suppose one of their own. I really
couldn't say as to that.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what geograph-
ical territory was included within the Saginaw Valley section of the
Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. There was Flint, Pontiac, Saginaw, Bay City,
Midland.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, with that general description of the organi-
zational setup, let us go back to your recruitment into the Commu-
nist Party. Who was the chairman of the AC-Fisher group of the
Communist Party when you first became a member of it ?
Mrs. Churchill. Doc Maddock.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe he is now deceased.
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, he is.
Mr. Tavenner. May I suggest that in the course of your testimony,
where you know that a person who was a member of the Connnunist
Party is now deceased, that you not mention their names? There
seems to be no point in doing that unless they occupied an official
position. If they did, it would be necessary for the committee to
know that.
5518 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr, Clai{Dy. Mr. Tavenner, let me interrupt a moment. I think
it would be well to push your mike a little bit further away from you.
There is some feedback which is quite evident up here. Push it away
from you a little bit because it is very difficult to hear.
Mr. TA\'E]srNER. I am sorry.
Mr. Clardy. Proced.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us the names, please, of other officials
or leaders of the Communist Party group, the AC-Fisher group, at
the time you became a member of it ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, Harold Wells was the
Mr. Tavenner. Harry Wells ?
Mrs. Churchill. Harold.
Mr. Tavenner. Harold Wells. He was the secretary ?
Mrs. Churchill. Treasurer; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And treasurer. Were there any other officials
whose names you can now recall ? Let me ask you this first : In iden-
tifying various individuals that you may have occasion to identify, I
wish you would give the committee all the identifying information
you can regarding them. For instance, in the case of Harold Wells,
do you know whether he is living in Flint at this time ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, he doesn't.
Mr. Taa'enner. May I suggest also that during the course of your
testimony that if 3'ou have occasion to refer to a person who was a
member of one of these groups of the Communist Party, and you
have reason to know that they are no longer members, that it would
be the fair thing to state it at the time that you mention the name.
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I believe that is so.
Mr. Clardy. May I interrupt you again, Mr. Tavenner? I see a
number of members of the working pi-ess who are supposed to have
the front several rows, who are unable to find a place to be seated.
Will those who are not members of the working press please vacate
their seats and move back so the gentlemen of the press may have the
accommodations that we reserved for them, please ?
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask you whether or not those who were
members of the AC-Fisher group of the Communist Party were all
employees at the Fisher Body plant?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, not necessarily. Some of the members that
we had were maybe the wives or the husbands of people that worked in
these
Mr. Tavenner. Either the husband or wife was a member ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were they also members of your union except in
the case of the wife or the husband who may not have been employed
in the plant ?
Mrs. Cpiurchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. In testifying, I would like you to also tell the com-
mittee whether or not any of the individuals whose names you mention
as being members of this group of the Communist Party held an offi-
cial position Avithin their union. Now, in the case of Harold Wells,
did he hold any official position ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I don't believe that he did at this time.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe at the time that you were speaking of
there were only two officials of your group.
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5519
Mr. Tavenner. The chairman and the secretary-treasurer.
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, about how
many people were members of this group of the Communist Party
in the period of your early membership ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I had a list that was given to me in relation
to the AC, but a lot of these had dropped out from the party, and I
don't think it would serve any purpose to bring them because they
never attended any meetings and didn't pay any dues, after I became
involved in the party.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, I think it would be just as well to leave
those names out of the record then.
Mr. Tavenner. The persons who withdrew ?
Mr. Clardy. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. I see no useful purpose, in view of the statement by
the witness, of bringing in names of people in that category because
then it would call for an extended explanation, and we don't care to
have anyone named unless we have reason to believe that they were
active party members.
Mrs. Chuechill. Well, when I contacted these people, the list of
names that was given to me to contact because they had been in the
party at some time or other, and they told me that they didn't want to
remain a Communist, I was very happy not to contact them again, just
to mark them off the list.
Mr. Tavenner. About how many persons were members of the
group ? What was the approximate membership ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I think actually the active membership
probably comprised about 7 or 8 people.
Mr. Tavenner. Were those 7 or 8 people to whom you refer active
in the work of the Communist Party within the Fisher plant ?
Mrs. Churchill. Fisher and AC.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, Fisher and AC. Will you give us the names,
please, of the active members of that group whose names you can now
recall and who are known to you, of course, to have been members
of this particular group of the party, of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, Harold Wells, of course, was active, and
his wife, Josephine, was active, although she was not a member of
any local or industrial plant, but she often sat in on the meetings,
and I have one member that is deceased ; you don't want me to men-
tion his name.
Mr. Tavenner. I suggest you not mention the name.
Mrs. Churchill. Hilliard Parrish, who has dropped out of the
party, and Dorothy Parrish, who has dropped out of the party, and
Jerome H. Abramik, who was kicked out of the party.
Mr. Tavenner. When was he kicked out ?
Mrs. Churchill. I would say in about 1948 or 1949, early part of
1949.
Mr. Clardy. How was that process achieved, sort of a drumhead
court-martial, more or less?
Mrs. Churchill. Well the fact that he belonged to our caucus
at the AC local, and of course the party, as you know, has absolutely
no use for a Trotskyite, and during one of our caucuses he was quite
5520 COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF ]\nCinGAN
friendly with the Trotskyites, and I found this was my duty to report
it to the Communist Party, and they kicked him out of the party.
Mr. Clardy. Well, now, did they afford him a fair trial on charges
preferred, or just how did they go about doing this ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, because if they had, I would have been at
this trial because I was a member of his cell, or club as we call them.
Mr. Clardy. Tlien the moment that he differed with their phi-
losophy, their ideology, he was just summarily removed from the
gi-oup by the leadership ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, the organizer advised him of the fact that
he was no longer accepted as a member of the party.
Mr. Clardy. He had no trial, no hearing, no appeal ?
Mrs. Churchill. No.
Mr. Clardy. None of these things that we hear the Communists
talk about their being deprived of when they appear before commit-
tees of this kind ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, he didn't have.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mrs. Churchill. And June Garvin, who later became June
Thomas, and
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. I think we should spell those names.
Will you spell Abramik ?
Mrs. Churchill. A-b-r-a-m-i-k.
Mr. Tavenner. And Garvin ?
Mrs. Churchill. G-a-r-v-i-n. And Edna Blassingame, who
dropped out of the party for reasons of her own.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell that name, please ?
Mrs. Churchill. B-1-a-s-s-i-n-g-a-m-e, and a Joe Devitt, He
dropped out of the party quite some time ago.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell his name ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is D-e-v-i-t-t. Those are the people that
we had at that time when I was first in the party.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Now, in connection with your description of the
expulsion of Mr. Jerome H. Abramik from the Communist Party, you
mentioned the connection of the organizer with that expulsion. Who
was the organizer of the Communist Party in this area at that time ?
Mrs. Churchill. It was Jack White.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Jack White ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes. At the time that he was suspended it was
Jack White.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Jack is his correct first name ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is the only name that I have ever heard him
referred to.
Mr. Tavenner. Briefly what were the duties of an organizer of the
Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. The organizer of the Communist Party, of course,
receives his orders from the State committee, and he brings it into
the section, and the sections discuss the orders that were given to him,
and thev take them on into the cells or groups.
INIr. Tavenner. Do you know whether a person by the name of Pearl
Potter was one of that early group of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, she was.
Mr. Ta\t5nner. Will you tell the committee what her function was,
if you know ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5521
Mrs. Churchill. Well, when I was secretary-treasurer of the AC
Fisher group, I took the dues that I collected to Pearl Potter.
Mr. Tavenner. Over how long a period of time was that?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, that was in 1942-43, 1 imagine, right around
that period, because it was when I first went into the party — I beg
your pardon, I mean in 1945-46.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, do you know what disposition she made of the
dues that were collected ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I do not. I know I just took them to her.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Did she use another name at any time?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course, it was Pearl Potter at that time,
but she has now remarried, and her name is Pearl Kelly.
Mr. Tavenner. Pearl Kelly?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What is her husband's name?
Mrs. Churchill. Thomas Kelly.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Thomas Kelly a member of the Communist
Party, to your knowledge?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. "V^^lat group of the Communist Party was he a mem-
ber of?
Mrs. Churchill. Chevrolet group. He was also a member of the
section committee at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I think you should tell us at this time how this
section committee that you just referred to was set up.
Mrs. Churchh,l. Well, when I first was taken into the section com-
mittee, of course, they advocated women should be active in the Com-
munist Party, and because the AC is predominantly women, perhaps
about 78 per cent, they decided that I should go into the section because
1 was representing AC, and the other members were chosen accord-
ingly, and they comprised a member from each factory, industrial.
Mr. Ta^t:nner. What were the functions of this section committee ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, the section committee formed tlie policy for
the groups throughout Saginaw Valley or Flint or the other places
1 have named.
Mr. Tavenner. Did all of the areas which you described, the geo-
graphic areas within the Saginaw Valley section of the Communist
Party, have representation on the section committee?
Mrs. Churchill. No, they did not; just Pontiac and Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. Who, beside yourself, were members of this section
committee ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, at that time I was and Tom Kelly, Barry
Blassingame, Howard Foster, Bolza Baxter, and myself, and once or
twice a couple came in from Pontiac, and one waa Murray Borod.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us that name again?
Mrs. Churchill. Murray Borod, B-o-r-o-d, I believe. I am not
sure about that spelling, and a lady they just called — they ju.st named
her Elsie. They were in only twice, I believe, and then Murray later
came from Pontiac to Flint, and he is working here.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the organizer, Jack White, meet with your
group ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right. Often in the section committee
it wasn't actually confined to these peo]:)le, but at times they were just
the section committee that were there, but usually he asked other
5522 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
people into a section committee meeting:. It wasn't always confined
]iist to the original members.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, the name Jack White has come into the
proceeding again. While we have mentioned it several other times,
this is a new witness talking about him. I want to make it clear again
on the record that the Jack White she mentions is not the Jack Wliite
of radio fame, of Detroit.
Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. You mentioned Howard Foster as being one of the
committee members.
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Of the section committee members.
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How was he employed, if you know, and from what
group of the Communist Party did he come to the committee?
Mrs. Churchill. He is employed at Chevrolet.
Mr. Tavenner. He represented the Chevrolet group of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did I understand you to mention a person by the
name of Barry Blassingame ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat group of the Communist Party did he repre-
sent?
Mrs. Churchill. From the Buick.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether Bolza Baxter was on that
committee at any time ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat group of the Communist Party did he repre-
sent?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course probably the third ward, or he
was just in there because they felt he was representing the Negro race.
Mr. Tavenner. He was a person of sufficient leadership and stature
in the Communist Party to entitle him to participate in these meetings
whether he represented a particular group or not ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, he was.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wlio was the Communist Party organizer before
Jack "White took over ?
Mrs. Churchill. A Joseph Brant.
Mr. Tavenner. Joseph Brant ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he attend any of the committee meetings of the
section while you were there ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, yes, I attended some while he was here.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what became of Joe Brant ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I believe that he went from here to Cleve-
land, and I understand he is still there.
Mr. Tavenner. He went there as a Communist Party functionary,
did he not ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Tavenner. He is the same Joe Brant, Mr. Chairman, who is
now under indictment under the Smith Act in the State of Ohio.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5523
Mr. Clardt. Mr. Tavenner, before we get too far away from the
identification of Bolza Baxter, do you have plans shortly of touching
on his LYL connection ?
Mr. Ta%'enner. Yes, sir ; a little later in the testimony.
Mr. Clardy, Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with a person by the name of
Widmark?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I am.
Mr. Tavenner. W-i-d-m-a-r-k.
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall his first name ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, there are two. There is a James Widmark
and an Eleanor Widmark, who w^ere very active in the early part of
my membership in the Communist Party, but they are now in Cali-
fornia.
Mr, Tavenner. Do you know anything of the circumstances regard-
ing their going to California ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I don't, only they told me that they wanted
to get in a different locale. They thought they would be better off
and could probably do just as good a work.
Mr. Tavenner. Just as good work ?
Mrs. Churchill. In the Communist Party.
Mr. Taa'enner. In the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Ta\'enner. We have been amazed to find the number of people
who have been sent out from the State of Michigan to various parts
of the country to engage in Communist Party work of one character
or another. The hearing in 1952 in Detroit disclosed that Verna
McAllister was sent from Detroit to California to engage in Commu-
nist Party activities. In a hearing we conducted there about 3 weeks
ago we found Verna McAllister under a married name as one of the
leading functionaries of the Communist Party at that place.
Do you know where James Widmark went in California ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I don't. I got a Christmas card from them
■when they first went out there, but I understand they have moved,
and I don't know where they are.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he of sufficient importance in the Communist
Party to have served at any time on the section committee of the
Communist Party?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, he attended various section committee
meetings.
Mr. Ta\"enner. Was Eleanor Widmark his wife or
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, and I would like to make a statement in
regard to Mr. Widmark. I cannot say that he was sent out there by
the Communist Party because I don't know if it was or if it was his
own inclination to move out there.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall at this time the names of any other
persons who acquired a sufficient amount of leadership in the Com-
munist Party to have been permitted to attend the section committee
meetings of the Saginaw Valley section of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, you mean in the early part of my Com-
munist
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
5524 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. Churchill. Bob O'Dowd, and his wife, Gladys, attended, and
they also moved to California.
Mr. T-W'ENNER. Do you know anything about the circumstances of
their going to California and where they went in California ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the last name, please ?
Mrs. Churchill. O'D-o-w-d.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall what group of the Communist Party
ho represented ?
Mrs. Churchill. I believe that Jim belonged to the Buick group.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall what group James Widmark repre-
sented ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I don't remember which group he did repre-
sent.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated that there were two "Widmarks. I am
not certain whether you meant a Widmark other than James or
whether you were speaking of James and his wife.
Mrs. Churchill. No, I didn't mean it that way. I am referring to a
Bruce Widmark who is now a member of the Communist Party, and he
is still in Flint.
Mr. Clardy. "Wliat is the first name again ?
Mrs. Churchill. Bruce, B-r-u-c-e.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he of sufficient prominence in the Communist
Party to attend these section committee meetings ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, he probably did attend a few, but Bruce
never was too active. He attended some of his club meetings, but I
mean as far as his activity went, I believe that all it entailed was
attending meetings. I don't think that he was given any assignments
like passing out leaflets or anything like that.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the nature of his employment at that
time ?
Mrs. Churchill. He worked at the Buick, and he later worked for
the city, and then he went into business for himself, I understand.
Mr. Tavenner. I note that you stated tlmt Bruce Widmark is now a
member of the Communist Party. Are you speaking of the present
moment or
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I probably shouldn't say the present moment
because I haven't been in contact with him for quite sometime or in the
party since 1950. I can only give you the names of the people that
were in when I was there.
Mr. Tavenner. By stating "now," you meant during the period of
time that you were in the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. During the time that I was in there, yes.
Mr, Clardy. I think, Mr. Tavenner, it might be well, and maybe a
little reassuring to the witness, to know that we have other testimony
dealing with the people she has been naming, so that while I do want
it clear that you are speaking only of the period when you were in, Ave
have confirming testimony.
Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell me whether you can recall the names
of any other persons who attended the meetings of the section com-
mittee ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, not in the early part. "\'\nien Joe Brant was
the organizer and the early part of Jack "Wliite's being an organizer
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5525
here in Flint, they didn't have too many tliat came in. It was later
that they brought in these people.
Mr. Tavenner. Let us wait until later to develop that.
Going back to the membership of the AC-Fisher group, can you
recall at this time the names of any other persons who were members ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, we had a man that he got to join the Com-
munist Party by the name of Robert Packer, who was a Negro, and
he was a very intelligent person and had a wonderful personality,
and he only remained in the party, I would say, for about 3 or 4 meet-
ings. I would think actually he didn't know what he got into, and
he very quietly stepped out.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you think after a short experience in the Com-
munist Party he realized the nature of the organization, and as a
result of that got out of the party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I do, because I contacted him several times
to try to get him to attend meetings, through orders from the organiz-
er, because they felt they could use him, but he just wouldn't commit
himself at all. I mean, he would hardly talk to me, so I had the feeling
that he found out that he had gotten into something he didn't know
too much about, and then in the AC — do you want the membership
now?
We had during that time a Frank Solbodzian as a member of the
AC-Fisher group.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the last name, please ?
Mrs. Churchill. S-o-l-b-o-d-z-i-a-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I think the connnittee should understand from
you just what the chief activities of this group were, the AC-Fisher
group of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course our function was to recruit mem-
bers for the Communist Party and to carry the policy of the Com-
munist Party into the factories. I remember one time — of course we
always — at least when I was in the party, and I suppose they still do,
because it seems to be something that has been going on right down
through the years — we led the leadership of the AC local to believe
that we were very much stronger than we actually were at the AC
local, and during various times of election we had some of the leaders
coming to us and trying to gain our favor so that we could swing the
vote or do whatever they wanted, and it was quite a jolt to me because
I actually knew there wasn't too much we could actually do about it,
only the following that we had or might gain.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, at this juncture I think it might be
well to again bring into the record a sentence or two from the Com-
munist Party directive that we introduced, as you recall, at Detroit,
and I refer particularly^ to this part on page 3, referring to Flint as
the key in their effort to take over the industrial plants in the State
of Michigan.
At the top of page 3, the last two sentences in the first paragraph,
I think they should be read in at this time.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I have the document before me.
This document which the committee recently acquired and intro-
duced in evidence at Detroit last week, known as Johnson exhibit No.
1, is a resolution on concentration for discussion at all clubs, sections,
commissions, and departments of the Communist Party. Attached
5526 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
to it was another document which was the plan of work for the Dear-
born auto section.^
We have been told by a Mrs. Baldwin that there was a separate
plan attached to copies of this resolution from the State headquarters.
Now, we do not have a copy applicable specifically in terms to Flint,
except in the sense that Flint is mentioned in the course of the orig-
inal resolution.
Now, do you know whether a similar document was received in
the Flint area ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I do not know. I only know that if it was
received, that I didn't see it, but the orders came through about our
concentration, and that General Motors was to be a key point of con-
centration.
Mr. Ci^^RDY. Now, will you read that, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. The resolution, which is virtually a directive
from the State level of the Communist Party, has this.to say :
Flint is the key to moving the General Motors division of the UAW, the divi-
sion which Reuther heads, and therefore the key to striking a powerful blow
against social democracy. Whatever develops in Flint has great influence on
the entire UAW.
That indicated the serious concern of the Communist Party State
organization and the importance which it placed upon the work of
the various groups of the Communist Party in Flint.
Continuing at another point, the document states :
It is therefore clear that we need a drastic improvement in our work in auto,
in the first place in our work in General Motors, without in any way curtailing
our work in Ford which remains our main concentration point in Michigan's
Wayne County.
And I will have occasion to refer to this document later on in the
course of your testimony, but
Mr. Clardy. I think I might interject at that point, Mr. Tavenner,
that since we have gone over this entire Communist directive and
have evidence that indicates that it is a continuing directive, as it
says on page 4,
finally, industrial concentration is not a seasonal occupation. It is not a method
of work that we will use only for a period of time. It is a permanent method
of work.
I think that ties in with what you said, Mrs. Churchill, a few moments
ago, does it not ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I am anxious to know what type of activities
these various members of the Communist Party who were members
of your group and others whom you knew to be members of the Com-
munist Party engaged in in carrying out the main objectives of the
Communist Party in this area.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course, one of the main things that we
did was to try to sell the Michigan Herald. We oftentimes went into
localities and sold this paper, and I might add that it was almost
exclusive in the third ward.
' Johnson exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 were previously introduced in evidence as Schemanske
pxhihist Nos. 1 and 2, and were printed in full in the record. See pt. 2 of this title,
pp. 5116 and 5122.
CORIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5527
It seems to get anybody who was willing to go elsewhere in the
city outside of the third ward to sell this paper
Mr. Tavenner. May I interrupt you there a moment? Were you
informed why the Communist Party was so interested in having the
Michigan Worker disseminated in the area ?
Mrs. Churchill. You mean in the third ward ?
Mr. Ta\t]nner. Yes.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, the third ward is comprised mostly of Negro
people, and they were trying very desperately to get Negro people
into the party.
Mr. Tavenner. But why was it important — I mean, were you in-
formed as to what was in the back of the minds of the leadership of
the Communist Party in putting so much emphasis upon the dissemina-
tion of a paper ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course this is their publicity. This is
one way they get their publicity out to the people, and they oftentimes,
in using the paper, would send reporters into Flint and get notes on
everything that went on in the various plants. They would contact
the memberships of the various clubs and find out exactly what they
do in relation to what was going on in the plants, because this is a
means of agitation.
Mr. Tavenner. May I suggest this as an additional motive: It
appears plainly from the document, Johnson Exhibit No. 1, that the
leadership of the Communist Party was calling to the attention of the
leaders in the sections
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. And the groups, that too much emphasis had been
placed on economism, as they referred to it, and by "economism," that
meant the Communist Party was spending too much time trying to
develop issues to help the workingmen, to help the locals, that more
time should be put upon politicalization, as it was called; in other
words, using the locals for the political purposes of the Communist
Party.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, they have always done that, to my knowl-
edge.
Mr. Tavenner. And that is pointed out in this document very
clearly, and I suggest that the chief interest in the dissemination of
the Michigan Worker was in order to lay less emphasis upon the issues
such as wages of labor and more emphasis upon ideology and political
accomplishment by the Communist Party.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, the Communist Party has always been
interested in the political end ; the school board, for instance, and the
city commissioner elections. State elections or national elections. They
have always worked on these elections.
Mr. Clardt. Not in order to improve the lot of any of our citizens,
but to advance the cause of communism primarily.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course, I might say this is a way to become
acquainted with more people and to get into more Communist fronts
and to engage in conversations with more people because they have
a subject to talk on.
Mr. Clardt. Well, just as the directive says, the Communist Party
is primarily interested in promoting anything that will increase its
membership and enable it to get a better hold upon the Government
5528 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
and upon the plants and upon everything else. Has that not been
your experience during the time you were in the party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Clakdy. Mr. Tavenner, I think because of two or three things
I want to do and also because of the health of our witness, we will
take a few minutes recess at this time, five minutes.
(Whereupon, at 10 : 45 a. m., the hearing recessed to reconvene at
10:50 a.m.)
(Wliereupon, at 10 : 52 a. m., the hearing was reconvened.)
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Will the folks in the audience remain as quiet as they can. I know
it is sometimes difficult, and the acoustics are bad. It sounds really
terrible up here in front, so we would appreciate your remaining as
quiet as you possibly can, and will those who go in and out of the doors
remember that when they slam, it interrupts us quite a little bit. If
they will watch that, we would appreciate that also.
Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. We were in the middle of the discussion of this
Communist Party directive which is the Communist Party speaking
to its leaders.
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Too much importance cannot be placed on the lan-
guage of this document. I will quote just a few lines to demonstrate
that the Communist Party was more interested in using its member-
ship and its organization within industry for the promotion of Com-
munist Party objectives of an ideological nature than it was in doing
anything, accomplishing anything, for the individual members of the
union.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, I think you rather understated the
proposition. I don't think they are interested in the welfare of the
union or the welfare of the members themselves unless that directly
contributes to further success of the Communist Party in selling their
doctrine that they must overthrow this Government through the use
of force and violence.
Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, it is important to consider what was being
done by Communist Party members pursuant to this directive in light
of the provisions of the directive. This is what the directive says :
The key link to accomplishing our objectives in auto concentration is a forth-
right recognition of the need to struggle against and overcome strong tendencies
of economism —
that means benefits to the members —
which have weakened our activity. This is a deep-rooted problem of long dura-
tion which has plagued us for many years. The recent period has not been
distinguished by vigilant struggle against it. Too much of our party work and
activity is confined to narrow trade-union issues.
Mr. Clardy. By that, I think we discover later on and through the
testimony, they mean they are worrying too much about getting
increased wages and improved working conditions and all that sort
of thing and not enough about promoting the real objectives of the
party, and that is to disrupt it; is that not true?
Mr. Tavenner. That is it exactly.
COMIVrUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5529
Now, I would like to know, from your knowledge of matters, what
type of instructions were given members of the Communist Party in
the matter of going out and getting into other organization? for the
purpose of advancing the ideology of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course the directive in the Communist
Party was to infiltrate into other political organizations, such as the
Democratic Party, the Eepublican Party, and to become interested
in any Connnunist front or any organization which coidd become a
Communist front to further their cause and to put out their propa-
ganda so people would understand exactly what they mean.
Now, for instance, we had an individual who was quite active in
the Democratic Party at one time, and although very few people in
the city of Flint probably knew that he was an active Communist or
v/as in the Communist Party, he did have a lot of influence in this
town, and his name was Casper Kenny.
Mr. Clardy. He had influence primarily because of the fact that,
as J. Edgar Hoover said, he was able to cloak himself with an appear-
ance of respectability and sell Communist ideas because people didn't
recognize him as a Communist?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Ta's^nner. Now, you say those were the directives of the Com-
munist Party. Well, did the membership carry out those directives?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, they did.
Mr. Ta\-enner. Now, just to emphasize and to make absolutely cer-
tain that that is what the Communist Party intended to do, I will read
another sentence which is a conclusion of this whole subject of
economism. -"^
Johnson Exhibit No. 1 states:
The struggle against economist trends has to turn fi-om words and talk to
deeds and action. The same organizing genius and zeal for detail, the same
alertness which Communist auto workers have learned in helping to organize,
build, and defend their local unions, must now be reflected in Organizing —
and that word "organizing" is capitalized —
the fight for peace, Organizing the fight for Negro rights. Organizing the defense
of democratic rights. Organizing to bring the case of the 12 before their fellow
workers and local unions.
Those are the things that the Communist Party, speaking of its
leaders, says must be emphasized rather than the union issues.
Mrs. Churchill. That is right. For a while the infiltration was
primarily in the unions, but they wanted to broaden their scope, so
they sent out a directive that people should infiltrate into anything
concerning people and public life.
Mr. Tavenner. Let us at this time consider what some of the infil-
tration moves were of the Communist Party in Flint. For instance,
let me ask you, what about the Labor Youth League ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, we had a Labor Youth League — at the
beginning of the Labor Youth League they had quite a few members,
and they were able to bring in quite a few youths who were not Com-
munist members, and they held their meetings at one time when they
first started up over the Greyhound bus lunch
]\Ir. Tavenner. I do not want to go into great detail about that at
this point, but was any specific direction given, to your knowledge, for
the Communist Party members to infiltrate and take over the Labor
Youth League ?
48861—54 — pt. 8 4
5530 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. Churchill. They were the Labor Youth League.
Mr. Tavenner. They were the Labor Youth League ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes ; its leadership was in the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat about the Progressive Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. The Progressive Party is a baby of the Com-
munist Party, too.
Mr. Tavenner. What about the Young Progressives?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, they are.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat about the Civil Rights Congress ?
Mrs. Churchill. Predominantly.
Mr. Tavenner. In all those matters the Communist Party was
directing its members to become active pursuant to the provisions of
this directive, were they not ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. We will hear more about that later on from wit-
nesses, I am reasonably certain.
Mr. Clardy. In other words, Mr. Tavenner, and the witness, what
we are saying is that they moved in on every group they could for
the purpose of subverting those groups, no matter what it might be,
to the ends of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Churchill. That is is right. Do you want me to go into the
Progressive Party as it was when I came out
Mr. Tavenner. Yes; I thinlc we miglit do that right at this time,
but just one second.
Suppose you proceed with that now.
Mrs. Churchill. The Progressive Party, the last time or when I
was in it, or just before I came out of the Communist Party, I might
say, when they were breaking up the groups into smaller cells, the
directive was that there would be no large social gatherings of the
Communist Party, but they could meet socially through the Progres-
sive Party, and the Progressive Party leadership are Communist
members, and the Communist — or the Progressive Party's policy was
often discussed in the Communist section committee meetings, and
we have various people that cannot work in the Communist Party
publicly because, after all, their living depends on public approval,
but they can work in the Progressive Party because people don't
understand that this Progressive Party is the Communist Party actu-
ally, and one time we took up a petition to put the Progressive Party
on the ballot, and we got the number of signatures that they had to
have, and then the State sent in Helen Winter to a section committee
meeting at one time, and she said that they had decided to take 200
names from the Progressive petitions to send Communist literature to,
so they have a purpose outside of — when they send these petitions out,
they have other purposes than to just get the people — get the party on
the ballot.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, that showed the method of operations to
carry out this very directive that we have been speaking of, does it not ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Incidentally, was there an occasion where peti-
tions had been prepared for placing the Communist Party on the bal-
lot and then subsequently the petition was used to put the Progressive
Party on instead of the Communist Party, do you know anything
about that ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I don't.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5531
Mr. Tavenner. Who within the Communist Party became leaders
in the Proj^ressive Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, the chairman
Mr. Tavenner. That is, persons now known to you to be mem-
bers of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I know.
Mr. Tavenner. I think we should avoid the mentioning of the
names of any persons who were in the Progressive Party who were
not known to you to be members of the Communist Party. It is true,
is it not, particularly in the early days of the Progressive Party in
Flint, there were persons in the organization who had no connec-
tion with the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, that is true. They had quite a large mem-
bership in the beginning, but by the time in 1950 when I came out of
the party actually most of the membership consisted mainly of Com-
munist members. At election, sometimes, when they had meetings,
they could get people in, if they had a well-known speaker, and they
were able to bring in people that were not members, but to actually
belong to the Progressive Party, I don't believe they had too many
members outside of the — however, I might state this, that they keep
a list of the people who belong to the Progressive Party down through
the years, and these added names that they took from the petitions
all received literature during election times because I know I called
the name that I had of a member who had joined the Progressive
Party in the early stages, and boy, he really ate me up, because he
didn't want any part of that Progressive Party. He said it was
nothing but a blind and he didn't want to have anything to do with
me or the Progressive Party, and he didn't want any more literature,
and he said he had called and called, and they just kept on sending
it anyway.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, do you mean to say that the list
of the membership of the Progressive Party was made available to
the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. It evidently was.
Mr. Tavenner. For its own use.
Mr. Clardy. That, Mr. Tavenner, brings up a question to mind.
You remember at the close of the hearing in Lansing yesterday I
had some reference to the circulation by the Communist Party of a
little pamphlet and a letter.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. I wonder, Mrs. Churchill, if you could help me in con-
nection with this. This letter is from the Communist Party, and the
document that came along with it was addressed to a friend of mine
who works for the Lansing State Journal at Lansing. He, of course,
has never in any way been associated with the Communist Party or
any of the subversive movements that are Communist fronts or any-
thing even closely akin to it, and I am wondering if you could help
us and enlighten us a little bit further on what other means or methods
thev use to accumulate names to send their literature to, because last
night, after coming here, I learned thnt these very same dociiments,
and the letter, which is signed by William Z Foster, the heul of the
party in the country, and Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, and Pettis Perry,
a couple of Communists that have been convicted — I am wondering
if you could tell us how they get these lists and why on earth they
5532 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
would, in this instance, have sent this sort of material to a good news-
paperman who is a good American, by the way, and why and how
they would distribute it among the factory workers here in Flint, as
they are doing right now.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course that is easy to understand. That
is a publicity stunt. They would send it to you, and you wouldn't
like it, so you wouldn't keep still about it ; you would go tell somebody
else, "Look what I got in the mail, look what so-and-so sent me."
Mr. Clardy. That is precisely what the newspaperman did. He
called me in and handed it to me.
Mrs. Churchill. So they might contact somebody who did want to
know about it.
Mr. Clardy. I think in the plants they are distributing them by
hand more or less, but I am wondering how they accumulate these
names. Where do they go to get them, merely pick up a city directory
or take a telephone book or what do they do ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I know various times that we worked in
the Progressive Party on elections, and they chose Communist women
to go through the telephone directory and call various people right
down the line to see if they had been registered to vote, and if it would
be possible that they use a telephone or city directory, or if you are
very well known, I happen to know that after I testified in Detroit
or — I believe it was before — after I had testified in Detroit, that they
sent a little pamphlet up to WFDF, and they gave it to the FBI, and
they were calling all the people, of course, that were testifying against
these people stool pigeons, and so on and so forth, which of course
we are quite used to and probably wouldn't get along without it, but
they do this way to bring discredit on people and to get publicity is
the biggest thing.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, we discovered, in connection with the very hear-
ings that we are holding in Michigan, that there was obviously a very
carefully laid plan and plot for people under subpena to release in-
formation to the newspapers. It is the practice of this committee to
never release information about anyone under subpena unless that
person first has released that fact. Well, day after day, as you may
have observed in the press, first one and then another, at predetermined
intervals, were bursting forth into print and talking about the commit-
tee and abusing it and doing other things. You had a letter to the
editor in the paper last night that also appeared in the Lansing State
Journal last Sunday. We had that witness before us yesterday. He
was very abusive and took the fifth amendment so many times we lost
count. I don't think he set a new high. I think we had one that took
it over a hundred times one time, but this would be one that came
pretty close.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe I asked you to tell the committee who,
within the Communist Party became leaders in the Progressive Party?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, the chairman of the Progressive Party at
the time that I was taken out of activity, was Shirley Foster, and I
would like to clear up a point, if I may have the indulgence of the com-
mittee, because there is a Shirley Foster who lives on 12th Street, and
Shirley Foster's name has been used before in relation to the Com-
munist Party by other people, and the Shirley Foster on 12th Street is
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5533
really getting the works because the address of Shirley Foster wasn't
put in the paper.
Mr. Clardy. In other words, there has been a confusion of identity ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Clardy. Well, at this juncture I think we should repeat some-
thing we have said many, many times. If anyone is identified in this
hearing by a witness, either wrongfully or otherwise, and desires to
be heard and will communicate with this committee, we will be more
than happy at a convenient time to both of us to afford them that op-
portunity, and if anyone feels that there has been a mistake in identity
and will communicate that fact to us, we will be very glad to let the
world know that that is the fact.
In this case would you give the address, the correct address of the
Shirley Foster that you are identifying so that there will be no further
confusion ?
Mrs. Churchill. The Shirley Foster I am identifying lives on
Flushing Road.
Mr. Clardy. The other one that has been wrongfully named
Mrs. Churchill. On 12th Street, I understand. I was called on
that last night, and she is pretty heartbroken on that, because she said
she considers herself a pretty good American and doesn't want to be
connected with the party.
Mr. Clardy. So far as your knowledge goes, she never has been.
Mrs. Churchill. No, she never has been.
Mr. Clardy. Well, I hope this little episode will clear that up for
her, and if anyone else is in the same category, if they will communi-
cate with the committee, we will be glad to afford them that oppor-
tunity.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how the Shirley Foster living on
Flushing Road was employed at the time she was a member of the
Communist Party, to your knowledge ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, she was only a housewife during the time
I was in the party, but before that she has told me that she was a
schoolteacher.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, I am afraid that a great many of your sex
are not going to like your saying she was only a housewife. After
all, that is a pretty important occupation.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, let me stipulate what I mean by that. I
think people in the Communist Party, when they are active members
of the Commimist Party, their interests lie elsewhere.
Mr. Clardy. That is right. I just didn't want it to appear that
either you or the committee thought that being a housewife is unim-
portant.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Activity in the Communist Party has not been very
conducive to performance of the normal obligations of the housewife.
Mrs. Churchill. No, that is sort of a minor issue, as long as you
have a place to live. If you are an active Communist, you are pretty
active, you know ; you are pretty busy.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, if you are an active Communist Party member,
you have to devote your entire life, 24 hours a day, to what the party
wants, don't you ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right. I know one time, as an illustration,
because my health was failing, and I was very often tired because I
worked at the AC and was active in the party, I know a couple of
5534 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
times when I came home I would lie down on the davenport, not
turn on the lights in the evening, and turn on the radio for relaxation.
It wasn't too many days before I was asked where I had been those
nights by Jack White, who was our organizer. Evidently he had been
out to my house one of those nights, and I wasn't there — so he thought —
but I told him that if he knocked on the door I probably would have
answered. He wanted to know what I was doing. I said I was resting,
I was tired. He said, "Couldn't you rest and study Communist liter-
ature, and couldn't you read so and so that you were instructed to
read at that time? You could improve your time." I was wasting
my time.
Mr. Clari>y. What you are telling us then is that the Communist
Party has spies and informers and the other class of people that they
talk about ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, evidently they do, because they sure knew
what I was doing part of the time.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe possibly the best way to get at this would
be to go back in your testimony. You recall you have testijfied about
the Communist Party membership in the AC-Fisher group. Now,
while you were a member of this section committee of the Communist
Party, were you afforded the opportunity or required to attend meet-
ings of other groups of the Communist Party which were part of the
section ?
Mrs. Churchill. I attended 1 or 2 meetings. One was a Buick
meeting at the home of Charles Mitchell who lived on Taylor Street.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend meetings of any other group ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, they had Chevrolet meetings at my home
because my husband was in the party. After Mr. Churchill and I
were married, he joined the Communist Party at my instigation, and
he has been very unhappy with me because he feels that I am respon-
sible for getting him into a lot of difficulties because I insisted on him
joining the party.
Mr. Tavenni R. Did you induce him to do that in order to be able
to carry out more efficiently the task that had been assigned you by the
Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. As a result of which he has been inconvenienced
and embarrassed ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Clardt. Was that done, Mrs. Churchill, without his having
knowledge of the role you were playing ?
Mrs. Churchill. No ; I had to finally tell him because, for instance,
we were having a breakfast at our house one morning, and it was
shortly after we were married, and it was a breakfast of the Com-
munist people, and he went along with me all right to a certain point,
but along about 11 o'clock that night before the breakfast, he started
packing his suitcase, and I said, "What's the matter with you ? "V-Vliere
are you going?" He said, "This is no place for me. I am getting
out of here." He said. "If you want to have the Communist people
come into your home, that is your privilege, but," he said, "I never
did, and I never will." He said, "I am just taking off, and you do
what you want to."
Mr. Clardy. I take it the FBI understood when you had to tell
him about that.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5535
Mrs. Churchill. Yes; I had to tell liim because it was breaking
up my home, and of course the next morning you can imagine the
state I was in because I didn't actually know what he would do. I
felt I had to watch him all the time. I didn't know if he might erupt
during the breakfast or not, but he carried it off all right after I told
him.
Mr. Clardy. That, I think, impels me to say at this time that you
certainly did make a considerable sacrifice. The committee, and I am
sure the entire Government, appreciates what you have done.
Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there a group of the Communist Party in Flint,
to your knowledge, known as a professional group or a group that
performed the usual functions of a professional group of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, there was only just one time that the or-
ganizer ever mentioned any such thing to me as that, but he said that
there were a few people that were secured.
Mr. Tavenner. That was the purpose in the Communist Party or-
ganization in having a professional group, that their names be kept
secure even from other Communist Party persons ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Tavenner. So from what you were advised, there was such a
group.
Mrs. Churchill. Yes; but I don't think it was large, but I know
he did tell me that he had some people that were known as Commu-
nists.
Mr. Tavenner. "UHio was that ?
Mrs. Churchill. That was Jack White.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever meet in a Communist Party meeting
at the home of Jack White ?
Mrs. Chuechill. Oh, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliich was attended by a person in that category?
Mrs. Churchill. I attended — there was just one time that one of
these people attended a closed meeting, and I couldn't say if he was
a Communist member or not, but I know that he attended a closed
meeting, and I know that the Communist Party as a rule doesn't let
people into a closed meeting unless they trust them pretty much.
Mr. Tavenner. So you are testifying now only as to what you
know ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And you know that this individual attended a
closed Communist Party meeting which you attended at the home
of Jack White?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you fix the approximate date ?
Mrs. Churchh,l. No; I can't do that, because it was quite some
time ago, and it was — I would say probably in 1948 and 1949, but I
am not positive about that.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the individual ?
Mrs. Churchill. INIorton Leitson.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Will you spell the last name, please ?
Mrs. Churchill. L-e-i-t-s-o-n, I believe. However, I couldn't say
that he was a member because I have never seen his card or I never
was told that he was a member, but I do know he attended this closed
5536 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
meeting, and as I said before, you had to be a pretty trustworthy mem-
ber or pretty trustworthy person, a member or somebody close to the
party, in order to attend a closed meeting.
Mr. Clardy. By that you mean trusted by the Communist Party?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. They don't let just anyone into closed Communist
meetings then ?
Mrs. Churchill. No ; that is right.
Mr. Clardy. They wouldn't let an investigator for this committee
attend if they knew he was such ?
Mrs. Churchill. Oh, I am quite sure they wouldn't.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you told us a few moments ago that you
attended a meeting of the Communist Party group in the Buick sec-
tion
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. At the home of Charles Mitchell ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of the other persons who
were in attendance at that meeting ; that is, those that you can recall ?
Mrs. Churchill. There was Barry Blassingame, and I believe at
this meeting Jim Widmark was there, because this was in the early —
before he went to California^and the organizer, and myself, and I
don't remember anybody else that was at that meeting. In fact, there
wasn't too many members there that night.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not the wives of any of
those persons were members of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I don't, outside of the fact that Edna Blassin-
game was a member of the Communist Party, but she was not at all
active. She did pay her dues until she stepped out of the party, but
she never attended any meetings that I know of, and she never was
active.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether Lloyd Dantzler was a mem-
ber of that group ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe I asked you whether you attended any
meetings of the Chevrolet group of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Churchill. Yes ; I had some Chevrolet meetings in my home,
Chevrolet Club.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you acquire knowledge or did you acquire
knowledge of the membership of that group by any other method
than the attendance of meetings at your home ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes ; I got the full list of the Chevrolet member-
ship in 1947, 1 believe it was, when we had a party for Joe Brant, our
former organizer, and I was given this list of membership to contact
for contributions for the party.
Mr. Tavenner. Who gave you the list ?
Mrs. Churchill. I think "Mrs. Brant, Sly via Brant, gave me the
list. I am not quite sure who gave it to me, only I know that I was
given a list of names to contact for this party.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you contact them ?
Mrs. Churchill. I contacted as many as I could, people that I
could find, but you understand that there were a lot of people, par-
ticularly Negroes, when we were having parties at the Eoyal Gardens
on St. John Street, who would come in and listen to speeches by
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5537
various people in the party. I know one time we had Mr. Jackson ^ in,
and he touched on the Negro question, and we had quite a few Negro
people that came in, and we had some that joined the party, and then
when I went to contact these people, I found that some of them had
given fictitious names and fictitious addresses.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, Mr. Jackson has been identified before,
but let us get a more full identification.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Can you give us his full name?
Mrs. Churchill. I don't know if I can or not.
Mr. Clardy. What was the position he occupied ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, he was on the State committee at that time,
I believe, and he was educational director, and he came into Flint and
gave different talks at various times. He came in to talk on the Negro
subject at the Royal Gardens that I am referring to.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether he is now a fugitive?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, only by what the people in the party say
that he is.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Do you recall whether his first name is James?
Mrs. Churchill. I don't remember, really. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Clardy. I think, Mr. Tavenner, that you had better put a
further statement in the record that he is a fugitive from what, while
we have had it before, so it will be understood here.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. He is one of the Smith Act defendants, Mr. Chair-
man.
Mrs. Churchill. Yes ; I knew that.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall the names of any of those whom
you got in contact with to attend the meeting in regard to Joe Brant's
departure ?
Mrs. Churchill. In relation to the Chevrolet I have these names,
and as I read them off, I will tell whether I contacted these people or
whether they lived at this address or not. There is a Mr. and Mrs.
Parrish
Mr. Clardy. May I interrupt you a moment? Do you have any
other means in addition to that of identifying them as members of
the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Only the people that I will tell you that I talked
to and contacted and got money from.
Mr. Tavenner. Money for the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Money for the party for Joe Brant, and that
we talked about the Communist Party when I contacted them, and I
also will tell you if they were active at that time or not.
Mr. Tavenner. "Very well.
Mrs. Churchill. Mr. and Mrs. Parrish, James Smyers, S-m
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. Did you say what Parrish? I am
not certain that I understood you.
Mrs. Churchill. T have their names, but I just have it written
here as Mr. and Mrs. Parrish, that live on Chapman Street.
Mr. Tavenner. If you can identify them by the first names, it will
be advisable to do so because understandably there may be other per-
sons by that last name.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, there are quite a few Parrishes, but I am
referring to — his name is Uhlard, U-h-1-a-r-d, I believe.
^ James Jackson, from Detroit, now a fugitive from .instice.
5538 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
INIr. Tavenner. Did I understand you to say you know the address
where this particular Parrish lives ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes. It was G-2171 Chapman Street, and this
member was quite active up until just maybe a few years ago, but I
would say probably that they were sort of sympathizers because they
have come out to some social functions in the Communist Party since
they dropped out of activity too much ; and this James Smyers, which
is S-m-y-e-r-s, who lived at 181t2 Liberty Street, was in the party, but
he hadn't been too active, and the last few years he hasn't been active
at all; and John Thomas, who lived at G-oJ:18 East Atherton lioad,
and now has another address, was active and has been active right
down through the years.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that name, please -.
Mrs. Churchill. John Thomas. He goes by the name of Jack.
Mr. Tavenner. Proceed.
Mrs. Churchill. And a Michael Uradnicek, U-r-a-d-n-i-c-e-k, who
lives at G-3079 Kleinpell Street, gave me money for the party, and he
is a member of the Communist Party. However, I do not know about
his activity in the party. I know he wasn't too active in the gi-oup
which I was in ; and a Frank Yurasek, who previously lived on Miller
Road, but he sold that home, and he now lives elsewhere.
Mr. Clardy: Spell that last name.
Mrs. Churchill. Y-u-r-a-s-e-k ; and then we have a INIr. and ]\Irs.
Plessel Anderson, who lived at 6090 Sunny Avenue, Flushing, Mich. ;
and Arthur Altimer, who I did not contact. He didn't live there any
more, they said ; and a Curtis Brooks, who was active, and I have met
in his home, 1419 Florida ; and we have E. F. Cole — I won't give you
his address because he didn't live there; and a Herman Clifton on
Liberty, who wasn't at the Chevrolet at that particular time, and he
didn't live there any more.
Mr. Clardy. By that remark you mean they had given fake
addresses and maybe fake names ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I am not quite sure which one, but one of
these was a vacant lot, nobody lived there; and an F. D. Dantzler,
1249 Easy. He is active ; and a Walter Haywood, 1322 Hickory ; and
Anderson Hunt, who lived at 8101/^ Dewey Street, and I had quite a
conversation with him. He wasn't active, but he had been a party
member, and he gave to the party, gave money for the party ; and a
Louis Hampton at 1532 Fay Street.
When I contacted this address for Mr. Hampton, they said that he
lived at 409 Howard Center or "Ct.," whatever that means, so I went
over there, and he wasn't there, and they didn't know where he lived ;
and a Thomas Kelly.
Mr. Tavenner. Is lie the same Thomas Kelly to whom you referred
at an earlier point in your testimony ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, and he lived at 1733 Mott at the time, but he
now has a new address ; and Howard Foster, who lives on Chevrolet
Avenue, and these are members of the Chevrolet. This was a list that
was given to me to contact for the party in 1947, and of course there
are names that have been added to that list since.
Mr. Tavenner. The chairman asked you, near the beginning of the
testimony, not to give the names of persons that you could identify in
the Communist Party that you know of your own knowledge had
withdrawn from the Communist Party. Can you tell the committee
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5539
about when it was that most of those persons withdrew from the Com-
munist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I can't tell you that they did withdraw. I
can't tell you if they are still paying dues or not, because I didn't col-
lect the dues for the Chevrolet local, but I didn't see them at any meet-
ings, but you understand that people can belong to the Communist
Party and pay dues and not attend meetings. I mean, they will pay
dues, and as long as they do, they are members of the Communist
Party. I don't know if these people paid dues or if they did not or
if they are members and if they are not. At that particular time this
list was given to me, they were given to me in faith as Communist
members.
Mr. Tavexner. I think, Mr. Chairman, in light of that statement
we should take that testimony in executive session and investigate it
further.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, I quite agree. We will follow the usual practice.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell the committee or give the committee
any reason for various persons having withdrawn from the Com-
munist Party who did withdraw ? Do you have any special knowledge
on that subject?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, yes. I talked to some people that have
withdrawn from the party, and in fact I have advised several people
who did drop from the party to contact the FBI and get their names
cleared because when they told me that when they joined the party
that they thought it was another political party that had the work-
ingman's interest at heart, but since they got into the partv and found
out what it absolutely means, they had no intention of joining a party
that would turn against its Government, and they considered them-
selves Americans ; this is their home ; this is where they live, and they
want to protect their country and they have no intentions of consort-
ing with anybody for the overthrow of this Government, and a lot
of them stepped out for that reason, and when they joined the party,
a lot of people are ignorant of the policy of the party or wliat their
objectives are, and when they do know, you will find that they don't
stay in very long, and people that got in, after they are indoctrinated
or beginning to give some of the theory on communism, then they are
perfectly willing to get out as quickly as possible.
Mr. Clardy. And it is exactly that class that we had in mind when
we announced earlier that we do not want to spread those names on
the record and if any, by inadvertence, do get on the record, if those
persons will communicate with us, the committee will do all within
its power to make certain that they are cleared as far as it is humanly
possible.
Mrs. Churchill. I have tried to contact quite a few people, and
while I know that they are out of the party and I have their names—
I have contacted these people and asked them their feeling on this,
and this is the answer that I have gotten, and I told them tliat the
only way they could clear themselves was going to the FBI and have
their name taken off the list. It doesn't belong there.
Mr. Clardy. You might also tell them to get in touch with this
committee because we have extensive files. The FBI keeps some 4
men working 5 days a week all day long at our headquarters in Wash-
ington. It will be helpful if they would do that with us also.
5540 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavexxkij. As a ivsult oH (he wiliulrawal of various ]H>rs()ns
from (lu> (''oiniminist Party for tlie reasons that you have assirrned,
was (here any appieciabk' elleet upon the morale of the C-omnumist
l^ai'(y in Flint or (he success of i(s operations and i(s underlakinjjs?
ISlrs. (^Hi'iu'iiiLL. Yes, there was. There was a certain period, even
af(er I was in, (here seemed to be no new members comiuir into the
pai(y, and the party wasn't reachin<2: out into the working; class like
they wanted (o do, so we had a lot of talks on this, aii'l nobody
seemed- a hhouiih everybody would promise to <io out and orjranize
and briuii" in new members and so on and so forth, very few did it.
Mr. Tavkxxkr. As a result of that and as a result of the withdrawal
of members ditl the strenuth diminish, the overall stren,<>t)i of the
Connnunist Party '^
AEi-s. Churchill. Yes, We had what we called colonizer-^ sent in
to Flint to put new life into the party, and I mii2:ht say that (he colo-
nizers, when they were sent in, most of these people are hic^hly edu-
ca(eil people, anil not only — some of them are colleixe jiraduates, and
they have had schoolintr in the Connnunist Party, and they were very
well disciplined, and thev know exactlv how to work in the Connnunist
I'arty.
I mii^ht state, when (hey first came in, they classified themselves
from the intelliiientsia class, and it was difficult for them to get down
(o a wtn'ker's level, to work with the workers.
Mr. Clakdv. You mean they identilied themselves as having a sort
of a super intelligeuoe?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, they were just a little bit above the working-
class people that they were sent in here to W(n-k with. At a meeting at
Howard Falk's on Xorth Street, where Mr. Winter was present and
Mr. Albertson ^
Mr. Tavexner. Is that Carl Winter?
!Nrrs. Church u.L. Yes, Carl Winter was present, and ^Ir. Albertson,
there was brout;' t to our attention by one of (he colonizers, and he said
that he felt that they hadn't accomplished what they were sent in here
to do because they didn't know the workers' problems like they should
know them.
Mr. Tavenner. Thev were people then inexperienced in the field of
labor?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
ATr. Tavf.xx'fr. Rut were s]">ecialists in the tield of
Mi-s. Churchill. Connnunism.
Mr. Tavexxer. Communism and ideology ?
!^^rs. Churchill. Yes, that is right.
INTr. Tavfxx'kr. Who was it that made that statement, do yon recall ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, Murray Porod.
Mr. Tavexxer. Murray Porod?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, that is right.
You see, in the ]virry when you have these meetings, we did have
what they call self-criticism, and if you recognize a fault in yourself,
or at least von thought vou had a fault, and vou weren't accomplishinji
it, then you criticized yourself at certain meetings, self-criticism, and
he said that this was one of his failings, that he felt, when he got to
the place where he could aet absolutelv "down to the workers' level'' —
^ William Albortson. coiivioteil under the Smith Act In rittsbursrh. Pn.
COMMrjNIHT ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5541
they were his exact wordn, "r]own to the workers' level'' Ln;xt then he
cj}\x\<[ accomplish j/iore, but tliat he wasn't u.s<;d to this type of v/ork
and he just wasn't able to under-stand their problems yet.
Afr. \a\v.ssvm. l)\d yon know from wluit section of the countrv
Murray iiorrxl was s^jnt to Flint?
Mr-;. ('sn:ii<:uiLL. \ew York. He worked in Ponti;)/- before he <^ame
to Flint, but he came from \ew York as a CornmunJ-t
Afr. Tavk.vnkk. You said that you called them fM^^lojjjzers. Was that
a term us<;d by members of tlie Communist Party in des^;rjbing pers^jnij
of this category ?
Mrs. Chukcjiill. Yes, that is true.
Mr. Tavk.vn'kk. You say you under-sto<^xl that th^js^* colonizers were
h>eing sent in for the purpos<i of strengthening the Communist Party
here in Flint?
Mr-s. Chl'kchill. YciS.
Mr. 7 AVK.v.vKR. I would like to refer again to Johnson Exhibit Xo.
1 in which the Cornmuni.st Party Is now speaking and in which it says:
Many comrades would F>e encouraged to volunteer to change their job« to fteek
emrjloyment in large aut/j jjlanti^.
Did the.se colon j»;rs v/lio came in here from \ew York and possibly
other places go into the industrial field ?
Mrs. Cif LIJCIIJ1.L. Yes, that is right, they did-
Mr. Tave.vxkk. Can you give us the names of any other coloniz^^rs
or persons who were considered by you as functionaries of the Com-
munist Party as colonizers?
Mrs. Curriic-Hrix. 'Iha^t pe<^jplft, I want to explain, that were sent in
a.s coloniztjrs, were sent in spe^;ifically to do a job of organizing in the
shops and to bring party policy to people and t/j strengthen the party
and to activize the j>fiOple that were already in the Cornmunist Party.
There is a Martin and Phyllis Tracht>;nl>erg.
Mr. Tavkn'Nkk. Do you know where they came from ?
Mrs. ('uxjRCuiLh. \ew York, I understand.
Mr. Cl.\eijy. All the.se c^jlonizers came from New York, did they
not ?
Mrs. Cif UECHn^L. Well, there were some exceptions.
Mr. Clakjjy. One or two ?
Mrs. (^HuriCifii.L. Yes.
Mr. TAV'hK.vEK. Can you tell the committee, please, where either or
both of these f>eople were employed ?
Mrs. CifURcniix. Well, Martin works at the Buick, and Phyllis is a
housewife, and when I carne out of the party, she was the treasurer for
the section of the Communist Party. Alax TrachtjinF^erg was in Flint
for quite sometime, but he was unable to .se^^k employment, so he went
to Detroit.
Mr. TA\'EN?fEE. Was he related to the other TrachtenV^erg
Mrs. Chuechiix. His brother. I understand, and Howard and Nina
Falk.
Mr. Clabdy. "VM^iat is that last name again ?
Mrs. CnufiCinLL. Falk, F-a-l-k. Howard works
Mr. Ta\txnkk. Do you know where he came from ?
Mrs. Chl-kcijiix. Xew York. Howard works at the Buick, and
Nina was a housewife. I heard that she worked in the dnjg store,
but I couldn't confirm that because I don't know. Ted Karpell came
in and was active for quite some time.
5542 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. How do j'oii spell that name ?
Mrs. Chupxiull. K-a-r-p-e-1-1.
Mr. Tavenner. How did he become employed ?
Mrs. Churchill. He was employed at Chevrolet. He got into dif-
ficulty with the people over at the Chevrolet because they saw that he
was passing out pamphlets of a communistic nature, and he was
roughed up pretty badly and charged and had a trial, and I believe
that he was acq.iitted, but the people over there painted his car red
and hung him m effigy, and so on and so forth, and made it pretty
rough on him, so he was quite anxious to leave town.
Mr. Tavenner. What local union was that ?
Mrs. Churchill. G59.
Mr. Tavenner. 659 't
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. In what plant ?
Mrs. Churchill. Chevrolet.
Mr. Tavenner. It would appear then that if the rank and file of the
unions knew of the Communist Party connections and activities of an
individual, he would not be able to accomplish anything.
Mrs. Churchill. That is true. In relation to the union, I would
like to state that the unions have Communists in a minority, but these
Communists are very well trained and are very fluent speakers, most
of them, but the majority of the unions are good American citizens,
and they could strengthen our country because they are militant, most
of them, if it comes right doAvn to an issue where there is anything at
st;ike, and I believe that if they know who these people actually are —
of course there are always rumors going around in a shop. If a person
is a little liberal or something like that, he gets the word "Communist''
tacked on him, and actually he isn't.
Mr. Tavenner. Liberalism and communism should not be confused.
Mrs. Churchill. No, that is right, and so a lot of people are called
Comnninists when they are not, and so for that reason I think they
are a little precautions about the activity they engage in until they
actually find out if they are members of the Communist Party.
There is a William Van der Does, V-a-n d-e-r D-o-e-s, I believe it
is. He works at Fisher Body ; and a George — I believe it is a George,
any w a y — IMoscou . ^
Mr. Clardy. Spell that one.
Mrs. Churchill. M-o-s-c-o-u, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where he Avas from ?
]\Irs. Churchill. From New York, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was he employed ?
Mrs. Church.ll. I am not sure. He is in one of the plants, but I am
not exa tly sure where he is placed ; and a George Fox from Lansing.
Mr. Clardy. It seems like I have heard of that gentleman before.
Mr. Tavenner. How was ISIr. Fox employed ?
Mrs. Churchill. At the Chevrolet.
Mr. Clardy. I want to interject, ]\fr. Tavenner, at this point. The
statements of the witness concerning the fact that the overwhelming
percentage of people in labor unions are good loyal citizens checks
exactly with what this committee has discovered in all of the investiga-
tions it carried on, but I want to add this to it : Don't you agree also
with the committee that the minority, small as it may be, not only in
1 Further Identification reveals tliat the name intended to be Jack Moscou.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5543
labor unions but in any group, exert an influence far greater than
their numbers would seem to warrant ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, that is true because they are militant, and
they are active.
Mr. Clardy. And they have a plan of action, haven't they?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right, and very seldom a union meeting
goes by but what they don't interject themselves some way or other
to bring the focus on themselves.
Mr. Clardy. AYould you agree with the committee, then, that the
disclosure of the names of those who are actually members of the
Communist Party, whether it be in the labor unions, whether it be in
any other stratum of society, will help destroy their usefulness and
enable the right thinking members and other groups to cleanse them-
selves ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is absolutely correct because I don't think
that there is any Communist that likes undue publicity, if it is un-
favorable to himself.
Mr. Clardy. They can't stand the hot glare of publicity, can they?
Mrs. Chltrchill. They just don't like it, because they know that
once they become in the public eye and are known as Communists,
part of their usefulness is at an end,
Mr. Clardy, Do you suppose that accounts for the beligerancy and
the insidting attitude many of them take when they appear before
this committee ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, as far as I am concerned, it probably would,
but you can't understand the workings and minds of some Com-
munists.
Mr. Clardy. Well, you can say that again. It is difficult and has
been difficult for me ever since I have been on the committee and I
suspect it has been for the chairman, who has been on for a great many
years — impossible to fathom the mind of one who would allow himself
to join a group dedicated to the destruction of everything we hold
dear.
Mrs. Churchill. Because to me when Communists or anybody else,
whether it is these hearings or FBI or any other law enforcement, if
they get up and declare themselves unapproachable, then I feel that
they would be willing to subvert to anything in relation to our Gov-
ernment.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether there was anyone in this
category of colonizers from Grand Rapids ?
Mrs. Churchill. We had a Sapolinski, I believe. I don't remem-
ber his first name, but he was killed in an automobile accident on his
way home one night, and it is too bad that he didn't use his education,
his personality, to better the conditions of his own country than to
further the ideology of a foreign country because this boy really had
something on the ball. He had a wonderful personality, and he had
a unique way of talking to people, and he could have been a real help
to his country.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with a person by the name of
Jimmy Zarnichny?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I have known Jim since he was a little boy.
In fact, I had Jim in an organization that we had when the union was
first organized. We had what we called a youth organization for the
union members, the children of the union members, and Jim was a
member of this organization.
5544 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardt. Will you spell that name? We have it, but I would
like it clear in the record.
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I think you will just have to be content with
the way you have it spelled because I haven't got it here.
Mr. Clardy. He was at one time a student at MSC ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, he was.
Mr. Clardy. And achieved considerable notoriety as a result of his
activities over there.
Mrs. Churchill. I think that Jim did, with the help of the party,
fet a lot of publicity on his case, but I think he felt a little let down
ecause they didn't go further with it.
Jim is a type of person who was very intelligent as an accountant,
and I think he could have gone a long way, but he was willing to throw
over his career for the party.
Mr. Clardy. He just took the wrong path.
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he in the category of colonizers or was
Mrs. Churchill. I wouldn't place him in the category of a colonizer
because this was his home.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee a little more about the
practice of utilizing these colonizers? When they came, did they
immediately take up a position or become active in the Communist
Party, or how was that worked out?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course when they first came in to Flint,
they w^re secured until they got jobs in industrial plants.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you means by "secure"?
Mrs. Churchill. They were not even known to most members in
the Communist Party because this is top security, we might say, and
they received or they got into the industrial plants, and until they
received their seniority, a lot of the members didn't know who these
people were, and after they received their seniority, then they became
active. The first thing, of course, in the unions, and then they joined
the various Communist clubs that were attached to the various indus-
tries, and from then on, of course, that was what they were supposed
to do, but in relation to our local we had one girl that went into activ-
ity before she actually knew too much about the local, and the first
meeting that she attended she stamped herself as a Communist because
she came in, and she attacked the union in relation to the Negro people,
and I know conditions are not good as far as the Negro people are in
probably most of the unions, but I know that we try, and I know that
these conditions have to be changed, but you don't come in and attack
your union on something like that that they are trying to correct that
Ave never do anything, that we doirt have Negro this and Negro officers
because we have had Negro officers in our local, and the next morning
after she came in or was to this union meeting, one of the committee-
women approached me and she said, "I see you have a new fellow
traveler, a new member." I said, "What do you mean by that?" Slie
said "Wlio is this Communist that was in the meeting yesterday, this
red headed girl?" And I said, "I don't know anything about her. I
don't know if she is a Communist or not." I did know, but I wasn't
giving her any information. I was a Communist then.
She said, "Well, she is a Communist; we know she is, and we almost
threw her out yesterday." And that was the first meeting that she
had attended.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5545
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the individual?
Mrs. Chuechill. I haven't given you their names yet, but it is
Gerald and Marilyn Baumkel, I believe it is spelled B-a-u-m-k-e-L'^
Mr. Tavenner. How long did it normally take for a person to come
in, say, from the city of New York and acquire a position, gain senior-
ity, gain a position in a local union, before becoming a member of the
local group of the Communist Party, thereby lifting the security with-
in the Communist Party?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, as far as the people, the colonizers coming
in, of course they immediately contacted your organizer, the organizer
knows who these people are, and maybe other people in the Communist
Party who are fully trusted or people that they feel that they can give
this information to, and then they get their job, and of course it
depends on liow long it takes them to secure a job in the plant before
they become known, and they get the seniority in the plant before they
are widely known. Sometimes a colonizer being sent in is so anxious
to get to work that people around him recognize that he is a Com-
munist before the Communist Party gives him permissioii to come
out as such.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee whether or not these
alleged colonizers became active in the affairs of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Churchill. Oh, yes, yes.
Mr, Tavenner. Can you recall positions of leadership th-it some of
them reach in the Communist Party?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, some of them, of course, became chairmen
of their clubs, and Phyllis Trachtenberg became the treasurer of the
section,
Mr, Tavenner. Wliat, in your judgment — excuse me, do you have
others in mind ?
Did Falk attain any position of leadership in the party ?
Mrs, Churchill. He might have in his own club, but I don't know
if he did,
Mr, Ta\'enner. 'Wliat was the effect upon the Communist groups
within the section and within Flint of the entry of the colonizers into
this area?
Mrs, Churchill, Well, I wouldn't say that it was particularly good
when they first acme in, because it seemed to me when they first came
in there was a sort of factionalism which arose in the Communist
Party, which, of course, is absolutely against all Comnninist theory,
but some of the older members were a little bit dubious of these people
that were sent in and due to the treatment that some of the older
people received from some of these colonizers,
Mr. Velde. Do I understand you, Mrs, Churchill, to say that the
colonizers who were sent into Flint were mostly younger people ?
Mrs, Churchill. That is right, they were.
Mr. Velde. It would be only natural then that the older members
here in Flint would resent their coming in to take over.
Mr. Clardy. Let us date this, too, while we are at it. At about
v/hat time did this colonization start ?
Mrs. Churchill, Around 1949, I think it was, in the latter part
of 1949,
Mr. Clardy. Continued over some period after that ?
1 Further information reveals that correct name is Sherwood (Jerry) Baumkel.
48861— 54— pt. 8 5
5546 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. Chuechill. Yes. I think, of course, what we must under-
stand, tliat they sent these colonizers into Flint for this purpose, and
if they have an objective of any kind that they want accomplished,
at any time, unbeknownst to anybody, they can change their people
around. They can send them from locality to locality.
Mr. Clardy. They have a pretty rigid discipline, don't they?
Mrs. Churchill. Oh, yes, that is true, particularly with the younger
people and with these colonizers, they are very well disciplined, but
some of the members, I might say, the older members who had been
in the party over a period of time, they were pretty lax, and the social
functions the party had were predominant in their minds ; discipline
didn't mean anything to them, but
Mr. Clardy. That is the very thing this Communist directive,
among others, was crying out against, that there hadn't been the tight-
ening of the lines and the obedience that the party demands.
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. Would you say that at the time they sent in the col-
onizers that the Communist Party movement here was pretty well
falling flat on its face more or less and that the colonizers were sent
in to rejuvenate it, bring it back into real activity again ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, yes; I would say that because we had in
1948, I believe, an organizational drive in Flint, but it wasn't suc-
cessful. The party people were very nonchalant; I mean, they just
went along. They were members, and that is about all it meant to
them, I think, at the time.
Mr. Clardy. So the colonizers were sent in by the higher-ups ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. To put it back on its feet again ?
Mrs. Churchill. We had some members who were very active and
very militant, but they were minor, I mean, few.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, before we recess, I would like to ask
Mrs. Churchill concerning the practice of carrying membership cards.
When you first became a member of the Communist Party, of course
you had a membership card, did you not ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I did have.
Mr. Velde. And all of the other fellow comrades had ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes; they gave me — because I was chairman of
the group, they gave me all the cards for the members that I had in
my club.
Mr. Velde. Do you recall when the practice of issuing membership
cards ceased ?
Mrs. Churchill. I think around the first part of 1948 or in 1948,
I believe.
Mr. Velde. I think that evidence that we have already had before
the committee indicates that that was the date when the national
Communist Party issued instructions that no cards
Mrs. Churchill. That is when they first became quite conscious of
the fact that they had to look to the future and their security.
Mr. Clardy. The year 1948 then, to your knowledge, was the last
year in which they issued a card or had a card for a given year,
wasn't it ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. Some of those for 1948 were issued in the closing
months of 1947 and some of them to new members and others were
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5547
issued during 1948, but thereafter that practice was dropped for
reasons of security to the party.
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, is this a good point to stop ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir ; this is a convenient place.
Mr. Velde. May I say, before we recess, to Mrs. Churchill that I
concur in the statement made by the distinguished Representative
from Michigan regarding your patriotic service. I happen to be a
former FBI agent and have spent some 3 years in that organization on
Communist activities and as such I contacted many patriotic people
who were operating as undercover agents in the Communist Party.
I realize very well the terrorism that you went through during your
membership as an undercover agent for the FBI, and I am sure that
the committee and all American people appreciate the patriotic service
that you have rendered.
Mr. Clardy. We will recess at this time until 1 : 30, and all those
under subpena to appear today will report at that time.
(Thereupon, at 12 noon the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at
1 : 30 p. m. of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 1 : 45 p. m, of the same day, the proceedings were
resumed, Eepresentatives Harold H. Velde and Kit Clardy (acting
chairman) being present.)
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, before proceeding. Mr. Tavenner, I
would like to make this announcement, that I have been in telephonic
communication with Mr. Clyde Doyle, the Congressman from Cali-
fornia, who is an able member of our committee. He advises me that
he will rearrange his busy schedule and attempt to be here for the
hearings tomorrow morning, so that we might have a nonpartisan
committee sitting here in Flint.
Mr. Clardy. And along that same line, I would like to make this
observation: Now and then the press or other folks discuss the fact
that since there are nine members on the committee, it should be easy
to cover a lot more territory than we do. Well, I want to observe that
it is pretty difficult to get three busy Congressmen on any hearing any
time, even in Washington.
Mr. Velde. I certainly concur in that observation, Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
TESTIMONY OF BEATRICE CHURCHILL— Resumed
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Churchill, you described for us this morning
the effect upon the Communist Party groups in this area of the influx
of colonizers. Communist Party colonizers, here. Will you tell the
committee, please, now what the effect was upon the local unions, of
this influx of colonizers to this area ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I will start with my local first because,
although they are very active in our local, and they are going to a
lot of meetings and are interested in things that come up in the local,
they haven't been able to get a foothold in our local, and they haven't
been able to penetrate our paper.
5548 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
I know I have ^one down to the local union hall with members of
the Communist Party to try to get articles in the paper, and they
just absolutely refuse; although you might turn something in, and
they will acknowledge that they received it, but you never see it in
print, and they just don't have a foothold in our local, and the Buick,
they are very active there. I have made it my business to get quite a
few of their papers, the Buick papers, and 1 haven't seen too many
articles or any articles, as far as I am concerned, in the Buick j)aper,
but the Chevrolet local and its paper — I am talking about the paper
because I have had my husband get me pa]:)ers from the local, and I
] have found over the last year or two that they have been able to
get things into their Searchlight, articles by members of the Com-
munist Party, and not too long ago there was quite an article by
Murray Borod, and this Searchlight paper has been quite viciously
attacking the committee, which to me is un-American.
I suppose they have a right to attack anybody they want to, but it
is un-American, we know that, and they have penetrated the paper.
Two or three years ago my husband was instructed to write an article
and to get it in the Searchlight, and he couldn't get it in, and it wasn't
because the article wasn't good, because the organizer used the same
article in the State committee and read this article to the State com-
mittee, and they commended him very highly on this article, said it
was a wonderful article, and I might state, this is one way that they
have of using their own people.
A^^ien he was complimented on his article, he didn't tell them that
he didn't write it. He accepted the compliment, and then one of the
party members came back and told us that this article was read and
that he was complimented on the article. But I know that they
weren't able to get anything into the Searchlight over a period of
years until the last couple of years, and they have been able to get
articles into the Searchlight, and they have made quite a lot of head-
way at the Chevrolet, and I believe — of course one thing, they have
some of their colonizers and very capable ones were assigned to the
Chevrolet, very fluent speakers who could influence a lot of people, and
they have, through this national office, designated the Chevrolet as a
concentration point for the Communist Party's activities because they
feel that the Chevrolet is the backbone of General Motors. It is a feed-
er plant, for one thing, and it would affect other plants throughout the
Nation, and not only that, but they produce more cars at the Chevrolet,
and they feel that would hurt General Motors more if this ]ilant had
to be shut down at any time, and I feel that out of all the i^lants in
Saginaw Valley, particularly in Flint, I can't s)>eak for Detroit, but I
can speak for Flint, that the Chevrolet plant is this plant in which
they have done more work and created themselves more of a following
than any other plant in town.
INIr. Cr.ARDY. That is what you mean when you talk about concen-
tration. We had some discussion of this on the record at Detroit, Mr.
Tavenner, you will remember, but perhaps it would be well for you
to have the witness develop for the record here a little bit about the
meaning of that term and why they use it.
Mrs. Churchill. When we talk about concentration, we mean that
most of our activity is centered on this direct focal point in relation
to the passing out of leaflets and the selling of the paper and any
activity in relation to any publicity that we can get, we do that; and
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5549
here, of course, the mimeof^raph machine comes in, and they have a
mimeograph machine which they use for making leaflets and which
is used in any underground work that they have. They don't have
to depend on anybody else for any printed material, and they have
used this means. I know I sold papers myself at the Chevrolet, quite
a few times.
Mr. Velde. Mrs. Churchill, I am not quite clear about your discus-
sion concerning this Searchlight. Do I understand that that is a
Communist newspaper ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, it definitely is not. That is the organ of
659, the paper of the local 659, the union paper.
Mr. Velde. And when you said that the publication — correct me
if I am wrong — did you say it contained un-American viewpoints?
Mrs. Churchill. No, it contains usually things pertaining to the
local and happenings within the local, and sometimes it contains
articles that they think are of interest to the union. That is like cer-
tain politicians and things that might have a bearing on the local.
Mr. Velde. But the idea that you wanted to present to us was that
tlie colonizers attempted to get the propaganda into the Searchlight,
control the policy of the Searchlight.
Mrs. Churchill. I am stating that they not only attempted to do
it ; they have done it. I know for a while that they talked about the
AC because it has concentration of women, and the national sent a
directive in that there should be some attention paid to the AC, but
it never transpired, that it was directly nothing but Chevrolet as far
as the concentration point was concerned.
Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say that it was apparent to
you that the Communists had been more successful in the past 1 or
2 years in getting its propaganda line into the Searchlight.
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any knowledge of your own as to
whether or not this was the result of any direction that was issued
to the manager or operators of the Searchlight from higher levels
in the union ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, the only thing that I can say is that the
president of the local and any members of the local paper knew or
must have known that these people were Communist, because at one
time, particularly the article that I will mention the name, particu-
larly at one time during the layotf of men, due to lack of work, I
suppose, a lot of these people were laid off, and we had a colonizer
by the name of Murray Borod who was a committeeman, and they
laid off all around him until it became established that throuo-h peo-
ple's asking questions, that somebody complained of the fact that he
was a Communist, and they went in and found he was, and so they
demanded that he be laid off as his turn came up, and he was laid off.
They must have known through that action that he was a Communist
because this happened before his article appeared in the Searchlight.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you have told us that there was a security
period during which the colonizers would not affiliate normally \vith a
Communist Party group here, and that that period was usually long
enough to enable them to secure seniority rights.
Mrs. Churchill. That is rig-ht.
5550 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. Well, why was it important that their Communist
Party activities not be known before they obtained their seniority
rights ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course if these people became known as
Communists, they absolutely wouldn't have gotten into these plants,
because most of the plants, I don't know what the Chevrolet setup is
particularly only they have been lax, but I know that most of the
plant's setup, they investigate their people's applications, and unless
these people were secured to the point where they were anonymous
until they got into the plant, they wouldn't have been able to get into
employment in the shop.
(Representative Kit Clardy left the hearing room at this point.)
Mr. Ta\tenner. Do you know of any means of deception that were
practiced by the colonizers in obtaining employment in such a manner
that the employer would not know of their Communist Party affili-
ations ?
Mrs. Churchill. I don't think they did try to practice deception
when they first came in, but it became difficult for them to get jobs in
the plants after these colonizers became known, and it became known
that the colonizers were coming in ; then I know of a couple of cases
where I was told that they were going to use their maiden names on
their applications to try to see if they couldn't get into plants.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of anyone who did use her maiden
name instead of the married name in securing employment for the
reasons that you have given ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I don't know of any one that got in employ-
ment because I think the plants were advised of the fact that these
people were going to use this technique to try to get in, and I think
they were pretty thoroughly investigated.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give the committee the names of anyone
you recall who tried to do that, who tried to accomplish
Mrs. Churchill. I don't know if they tried to do it or not. I know
they told me they were going to do it, and that was Nina Falk and
Phyllis Trachtenberg.
Mr. Tavenner. Nina Falk was the wife of whom ?
Mrs. Churchill, Howard Falk.
Mr. Tavenner. Howard Falk ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. AVliat was the Trachtenberg woman's name ?
Mrs. Churchill. Phyllis.
Mr. Tavenner. Phyllis Trachtenberg was the wife of
Mrs. Churchill. Martin.
Mr. Tavenner. Martin Trachtenberg. That would indicate, would
it not, that the employers have, during a period of time, tightened up
their investigative procedures in regard to employment ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I think that can be very clear because these
people haven't been able to penetrate, and particularly after these
colonizers did get in, and they realized what was happening here in
Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. Now you have told us about the rank and file action
of the members of your union, indicating strong opposition to known
members of the Communist Party. In the light of that I am unable
to comprehend the statement as to the ability of the Communist Party
to get articles published or propaganda published in the Searchlight in
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5551
the last year or two which they were unsuccessful in doing prior to
that time.
(Representative Kit Clardy returned to the hearing room at this
point.)
Mrs. Churchill. That is a question. I don't understand it my-
self.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not have the answer to it ?
Mrs. Churchlll. No, I do not have the answer. In view of the fact
that these people knew, because they had been advised that this man
was a Communist when he was a committeeman, and they still accepted
his articles for the paper — I don't understand why it was allowed.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the question of religion made any issue in the
functioning of the Communist Party during the period you were a
member of it ?
Mrs. Churchill. When you joined the Communist Party, if you
had any religion, they felt that as you went along in the party and
become indoctrinated into their theory, that you would gradually
lose your religion as you went along, because they believe in nothing
but material things, and they, of course, brag on the fact that they
are atheists, and some of the experiences that I had — I talked to our
organizer about it, and he told me that people, after they gained more
knowledge in relation to the party, they would drop their religion, they
wouldn't have to be told to do it, they would just drop it voluntarily
after they became indoctrinated into the theory of the Communist
Party. I know one time we had a meeting at my home, it wasn't
actually a meeting. Mr. Allan, who was the
Mr. Tavenner. Was that Mr. William Allan ?
Mrs. Churchill. William Allan, of Detroit, who came in for notes
for the paper.
Mr. Clardy. Commonly called Billy Allan in connection with the
Worker, the gentleman who was recently convicted at Detroit ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes. He came in one time to get some notes about
what was going on in the union so they could put it in the paper, and
we were just talking along about these various things that were hap-
pening, and without any provocation or any previous discussion about
religion, he just jumped to his feet and raised his fists in the air and
said he was proud to be the biggest atheist in the party. It floored me
because I couldn't see any point in it right then because we hadn't
even been discussing religion. They think, of course, that religion is a
myth and an opium of the people and is only being used to subject the
people and that as you become educated in the Communist Party that
it is a drug and that there is no need of God in anybody's life.
During the last year I was in the party they directed some people
to enter into some of the churches. I know one of the places, one of
the homes that I was working in the Progressive Party, one of the
Communist women told me that they had gone into a synagogue, and
she came out and described what happened there, and it was a vicious
thing because she spoke that it was nothing but a money-gi'abbing
institution, and she spoke about they had to sit on hard chairs because
other people had more money than they did, and they could afford to
have a cushion in their chair. I couldn't believe this, so I went to
one of the Jewish people in town, and I discussed this with him, be-
cause not being familiar with the Jewish religion, I couldn't under-
stand this, and he said that wasn't true, but due to the fact that these
5552 COMRIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
peojDle would buy their own chairs because they were building new
synagogues all the time, and this was one w^ay they had of furnishing
their churches, and some people preferred these chairs. It had nothing
to do with
Mr. Tavenner. Well, if I understand you correctly, the Communist
Party members were advised to go into and become members of
churches, not for the bona fide purj)ose of worshiping God in the
manner of their choice, but for the purpose of advancing the cause
of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Yes.
Mr. Velde. I might say, I am sure that the gentleman from Michi-
gan knows, too, that we have a great deal of testimony previously
taken before this committee which was substantially the testimony
that Mrs. Churchill is now giving, regarding communism and religion.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, Mrs. Churchill. Isn't it true that all the Com-
munists you knew utterly denied God and religion ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right. They have absolutely no use for
it. As they claim, it is an opium and a drug and used by the capi-
talist system to subject ]Deople, to keep them under their thumb; they
use this.
Mr. Velde. In any event, the Communist teaching is to put com-
munism before God.
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. They, in their schools of instruction and in their litera-
ture, attempt, do they not, to implant in the minds of every member
of the party the idea that the Marxian theory of economic, materialis-
tic development is supposed to take the place of religion and that reli-
gion and the Communist Party and its doctrines are utterly irreconcil-
able?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Churchill, I would like to go back in your
testimony at this point to your affiliation with your group of the Com-
munist Party and your knowledge of participation in Communist
Party activities of other persons and ask you now if you can give the
committee the names of any other persons
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I have
Mr. Tavenner (continuing) . Who were known to you to be members
of the Communist Party.
Mr. Clardy. And as you go along, if there are any unusual spell-
ings, if you can, the Chair would appreciate your s]5elling it out. Of
course, if it is a name that is commonly known as Smith, Brown, Jones,
or anything of that sort, it won't be necessary.
Mrs. Churchill. There is a Marvin Engel.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is that name, please ?
Mrs. Churchill. IMarvin Engel.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you identify him more fully ?
]\Irs. Churchill. Well, this Marvin Engel was very active and in
the party right up until the time I was taken out, and he has been
in the Progressive Party, I believe in NAACP, and in the youth
leagues.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5553
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall a person by the name of Charles
Shinn, S-h-i-n-n?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes. He is a member of the Communist Party
and was active, and he attended the last year or two that I was in
the section committee, and he was quite active, but I might say in
relation to him, that the last year I don't think he was too active — the
last year that I was in the party, that he wasn't too active, because he
had two small children that he was solely responsible for, and he
couldn't take on these activities and take care of his children, and he
said that his children were much more important than the party and
there were times when he went over there that he didn't want to have
anything to do with it or talk to us about it because he felt that he didn't
want to take a chance on maybe losing his children.
Mr. Clardy. That person was identified by testimony presented in
Detroit, was it not, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mrs. Churchill. And Josephine Wells. I gave you her name this
morning, I believe. And Paul Simon ; he belongs to the Progressive
Party and the NAACP. Geneva Olmsted.
Mr. Tavenner. Geneva Olmsted ?
Mrs. Churchill. Geneva Olmsted Borod, and she ran for treasurer,
I understand.
Mr. Clardy. You are talking about B-o-r-o-d as the last time?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You say she ran for treasurer ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean treasurer for the State of Michigan?
Mrs. Churchill. Of the Communist Party, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. On the Communist Party ticket ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that the same year in which Abner Berry ran
for Governor ?
Mrs. Churchill. I believe it was.
Mr. Tavenner. For the State of Michigan ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Ta^^nner. And Phillip Kaymond for the attorney general, and
Hugo Beiswenger for the United States Senator ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tax'enner. All on the Communist Party ticket. Was Geneva
Olmsted related to Shirley Olmsted Foster ?
Mrs. Churchill. She is Shirley Foster's niece.
Mr. Tavenner. Niece?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well.
Mrs. Churchill. I have some names that I am not going to mention
hecause they were new members, and I contacted them at their homes,
and they were taken in on some of our social parties, and they never
paid any dues, and they didn't want to be recognized as Communists.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I
Mr. Velde. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that testimony should be taken.
However, it should be taken in executive session.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, if there is any reason in your mind to believe that
it would be helpful to the committee, in further exploration in execu-
tive session, we will take that up with you later.
5554 CORIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. Churchill. And Charles Mitchell at 422 East Taylor. Wal-
ter Slociim.
]Mr. Tavenner. Would you spell the last name, please ?
Mrs. Churchill. S-1-o-c-u-m.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give further identifying information re-
lating to him?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I knew him very well. I worked with him
in the Workers' Alliance, and I attended a Communist meeting which
was the first one I ever attended which probably was around 1938.
They called it the street unit, and Walter Slocum was one of the
people who asked me to attend this meeting.
Milton Strutts.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Will you spell the last name, please ?
Mrs. Churchill. S-t-r-u-t-t-s.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give further identifying information re-
lating to him ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, he has been in my home many times and
Mr. Tavenner. Do you mean at Communist Party meetings in your
home?
Mrs. Churchill. They had a Communist Party meeting one time,
and he was there ; that was quite sometime ago, and he asked me if I
didn't want to become a Communist member, and at that time he
worked at the Buick; and Hilliard Parrish, Dorothy Parrish, Julia
Parrish, Delia Parrish, and John W. Pomaski, P-o-m-a-s-k-i.
Mr. Tavenner. On what do you base your statement that those
people were members of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. I have contacted all these people. I know that
they were. I might say in relation to the Parrishes that they are not
active, and they haven't been active, but I know that they have
attended some social functions of the Communist Party, so I can't say
that they absolutely shed the cloak of communism. They are at least
sympathetic.
Bud Simon from Fisher Body is not in the Communist Party right
at the particular moment, but during the party they had for Wynd-
ham Mortimer and Bob Travis at tlie CIO anniversary party, I had
quite a talk with him, and he said that he would be perfectly willing
to go along with the Communists at Fisher Body if they would be a
little more secure in their activities, and he was a former Communist
and a very active one.
Mr. Tavenner. Who is this person Bob Travis of whom you spoke ?
Mrs. Churchill. Bob Travis was one of the original organizers of
the CIO in Flint in 1937.
]Mr. Tavenner. Well, I think we should make the record clear as
to whether or not you are indicating by your testimony that he was a
member of the Communist Party or not.
Mrs. Churchill. As far as Bob Travis is concerned, I have never
seen his card in relation to being a member of the Communist Party,
but I know he affiliates with Communist people mostly, and I know
that his wife is a reporter for the Michigan Worker.
Mr. Clardy. The Michigan Worker being
Mrs. Churchill. Being a paper of the Communist Party.
Mr. Clardy. It is more or less the Michigan edition of the Daily
Worker, is it not ?
COMJMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5555
Mrs. Churchill. That is riglit, and during tliis party that they
had, it was the Communist people that took up a collection to brmg
out Wyndham Mortimer of the early organizers from the CiO. i
know that some years ago Bob Travis was very highly thought ot in
this district, and people had a great deal of respect for Bob, but atter
he began to affiliate and to consort and to chum around with the
Cominunists, he lost most of his prestige. .
Mr. Tavenner. Now, are there any other persons who were active
enough in the Communist Party, according to your recollection, whose
names you should give us ? ^, ,. .■, •
Mrs. Churchill. I gave you Thomas Kelly, I believe, this morning.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Yes. . • t^t ^ j!
Mrs. Churchill. Paul Endicott was very active here m i^ Imt tor
a while, and a leader of the AYD in Michigan, and Shirley Foster,
Howard Foster, Lester Foster, Sr., Mary Foster, Louis Baxter, Curtis
Brooks. • -D J. 9
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know who was the wile ot Louis liaxter «
Mrs. Churchill. Jean Asselin. Of Louis Baxter ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mrs. Churchill. Jean Asselin.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the last name ?
Mrs. Churchill. I believe A-s-s-e-1-i-n, but I am not positive about
that. ,
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not she was a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, she was.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us anything about her activity in the
Communist Party?
Mrs. Churchill. She wasn't too active in the party while I was
there. I saw her at the organizer's home, and then she was very active
in the Progressive Party and in the youth leagues.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well. Will you proceed, if there are others.
Mrs. Churchill. Casper Kenny was a Communist, and I don't
know if he still is or he still isn't.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name?
Mrs. Churchill. Casper Kenny.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Will you spell that last name, please?
Mrs. Churchill. K-e-n-n-y, and I think that is most of the names
that I have.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, while you have been progressing, I
have been checking up on our listing of publications, subversive organ-
izations, and publications, and I don't know whether you have the
document there or not, but on page 140, the Michigan HeralH is listed
as having been found to be Communist initiated or controlled or so
strongly mfluenced as to be in the Stalin solar system. That was the
finding by the California Committee on Un-American Activities, and
then we have had some findings of our own since that time.
I bring that up because
Mr. Ta^^nner. Mr. Chairman, since the publication of that docu-
ment this committee has also found that. It resulted from a hearing
that the committee had in Detroit in 1952.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, I know, but I was going to ask Mrs. Churchill
if she knew the Helen Travis she mentioned a moment ago or would
recognize her if she saw her.
5556 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, she is in this room.
Mr. Clardy. Will you turn around behind you and identify
Mrs. Churchill. She is sitting right in back of me.
Mr. Clardy. Mrs. Travis appeared before our committee — was it
not 1952, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Ta\t5nner. I believe it was earlier than that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. That was in connection with the Leon Trotsky matter,
was it not?
Mr. Ta\tenner. Yes, sir,
Mr. Velde. And as I understand it, at that time Mrs. Travis refused
to ansAver questions on the grounds of the privilege of self-incrimina-
tion.
Mr. Clardy. Oh, yes; that, and as I recall it, several other consti-
tutional amendments.
Proceed.
Mr. Tavt.nner. Another of the important directives of the resolu-
tion in 1949 which were issued by the State headquarters of the Com-
munist Party of Michigan was the matter of schooling or training on
the part of the Communist Party members. Did you attend a school
of any character. Communist Party school ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes. We had some schools here in Flint. We had
one in May 1947, and we had one in May or in August 1947, 1 believe,
and we had what we called a General Motors school in 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. Who conducted the first school to which you re-
ferred ?
Mrs. Churchill. The first school was conducted by Hy Gordon,
who was a former professor at Columbia University and became con-
nected with the educational department of the Communist Party in
New York City, and the other school was conducted by Dave Fox, and
then the General Motors school was conducted by the organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. By the organizer?
Mrs. Churchill. Jack White, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall the identity of persons who attend-
ed those classes with you at either or both of those schools ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I would like to skip the first school, if I
may, in relation to Hy Gordon, because I testified in relation to this
in the trial of the six, and they are appealing the case, and I would
prefer not to go into that, but in relation to the one of Dave Fox, the
school was attended by Harold Wells and Eleanor Widmark and
James Widmark and Bob O'Dowd, and myself, and I am not sure,
but I think Howard Foster or Shirley Foster was there once or twice,
but I don't think they were there continuously.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend any other schools ?
Mrs. Churchill. Jiist the General Motors school. They asked me
one time if I would go into New York and attend a school there, and
then the organizer came and told me that due to the fact that they
would like to have a Negro sent into New York to school, that they
would like to send in Bolza Baxter, and so he was sent in my place
to New York to school, and then they contacted me later and asked
me if I would be willing to go to a school in Cleveland, and they con-
tacted me that one afternoon and wanted me to go in the next morn-
ing, and due to the fact that I had a very ill daughter with tuber-
culosis, I refused to go.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5557
Mr. Tavenner. What emphasis was placed upon education ; that is,
Communist Party education of the members ?
Mrs, Churchill. Well, of course Communist Party education is
one of the most important functions in the party because their theory
includes practically everything that has anything to do with your
life, your religion, your living standards, and the Government, and
education is very important to the Communist Party, and they are
continuously putting out pamphlets and studying and bringing in
teachers and speakers, and they feel that if you liave any moments at
all, spare moments, in your home, that you should utilize them by
studying out these books and these pamphlets that are put out by the
Communist Party, and through the educational departments of the
Communist Party and in the cells and clubs, a certain amount of liter-
ature is brought into each meeting to be sold or distributed among the
people, among the Communist members.
Mr. Tavenner. You will recall from the paragraph that I read from
Johnson exhibit No. 1 that in this struggle against economism, which
was directed to be made, that the party was to organize to fight for
peace and various other things.
Now, what organizational effort was made by the Communist Party
in regard to the so-called peace proposals which they advocated ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course, we had the Stockholm Peace
Pledge which was a petition for signatures, and we had peo})le work-
ing on these continuously, getting signatures on the Stockholm Peace
Petitions, and of course whenever a Communist gets an opportunity
to talk to anyone who probably is not in accord with the Communist
Party, this question of peace is brought up, and they feel that this
is one topic that everybody is interested in, and they feel that they can
gain some prestige by bringing this word of "peace" up.
Mr. Tavenner. Naturally everyone is in favor of peace, so they
utilized that for its propaganda value.
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. TA^^NNER. How was the direction of the Communist Party
imparted to tlie members in regard to the Stockholm Peace Pledges
and the other efforts in that direction ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, our petitions were brought in from the
State by our organizer and distributed to the Communist people to
lake out, and they also directed us, if we could find anybody that was
willing, outside of the pfirty, they would very much like to have non-
Communist people distribute this ])etition, and of course one of their
techniques is to get somebody that has a lot of prestige to sign it first,
and then they find it is easier to get other people, and very many
times when they go out to get signatures for petitions, people don't
question these petitions.
Mr. Taa^nner. This committee, through its iuA^estigative work of
this particular line of the Communist Party in the very early period
of its development, issued a pamphlet on the subject advising the
public of the nature of it, as a result of which many, many very dis-
tinguished people in the United States withdrew their names from
(he peace petitions after finding out the source of it.
Mrs. Churchill. I know that it got enough publicity in relation to
this Stockholm Peace Petition that when the members of the Com-
munist Party went out to get signatures on these petitions very often
someone in the district in which these petitions were being taken
5558 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
around, someone would call the police, and they resented this, and
the police would go out and talk to these people with the petitions.
Mr. Ta\t2NNer. In that connection was the subject of peace or
war with the Soviet Union discussed within the Communist Party-
meetings ?
Mrs. Churchill,. Well, of course they discussed the Korean war
when I was in, and they said of course that this was entirely our fault;
we had no business over there, and that we would get what was coming
to us, and of course now the propaganda was that we were defeated,
we lost face in Korea, all through the world, because we were always
going around sticking our noses in other people's business.
One time I asked my organizer, Jack White, when there was quite
a little propaganda in the United States about shutting down the
war plants and so on, and I asked him, I said, What were they donig
about this in Russia? Were they still manufacturing war imple-
ments? And he said that they had never closed their war plants
down, that they were running 24 hours a day.
Mr. Tavenner. You told the committee in your early part of the
testimony that in 1950 the Communist Party groups were broken
down into smaller groups.^
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. How many were in the group to which you were
assigned ?
Mrs. Churchill. Not over four.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that the uniform practice ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. What was the purpose of that action ?
Mrs. Churchill. It was for security. In 1948 and 1949 they
began to think about going underground and to use methods of
security, and they felt that the less that they could have in a club that
could function would be better for their security.
Mr. Velde. What date was that that they decided to go under-
ground ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, they started going underground or talk-
ing about going underground in 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall about when you received your assign-
ment to go underground ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, when he talked to me about it, it was about
the middle of 1950 or latter part.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, that has corresponded with the
data in 2 or 3 other places as to which evidence has been taken. It
was July 1950.
Mrs. Churchill. It was about that time.
Mr. Tavenner. In San Diego and in Seattle. Who were those
assigned to the group with you ?
]\Irs. Churchill. Well, I had Geneva Borod, Paul Simon, and
a PTenry Birdsell, and myself.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you receive instructions or directives
from the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course I belonged to the section com-
mittee, and I received my instructions from them, and very often our
organizer would visit the clubs, and here I would like to state that
a great many people have been led to believe that the party functions
in a democratic way, which of course it doesn't. They get the direc-
COMRIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5559
tives from the national office, which comes down to a State office, and
in turn is taken into section committees, and then it is dispersed
throuo;h the groups, clubs, or cells, whichever you prefer to call them.
Mr. Clardt. No deviation is permitted when once the order has
been handed down ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, that is for sure, and even in our election in
the Communist Party they bring in suggestions that are worded very
nicely. They say that they suggest that so and so have such and such
an office, so you don't question the suggestion. You just go ahead and
vote for this individual.
Mr. Velde. Mrs. Churchill, were you high enough in the party to
have any opinion or idea or judgment as to how the Communist Party
line was handed down from Moscow to the national headquarters of
the Communist Party of the United States ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I didn't. I didn't know anything about it.
Mr. Velde. There isn't any doubt in your mind, though, I take it,
about the fact that it does emanate from Moscow, filters through the
top officers here in America, and eventually down to the level on which
you operated?
Mrs. Churchill. There certainly isn't, because in relation to that,
the reverence in which the leaders in the Communist Party hold these
leaders in Russia and the Russian Government, there couldn't be any
question about it.
Mr. Velde. Mrs. Churchill, you were in the party at the time of the
Duclos letter, I believe, in 1945.
Mrs. Churchill. I had just gotten in in May of 1945.
Mr. Velde. I believe it was in 1945 that the Duclos letter was written.
Could you give us any information concerning the activities of your
local unit during the time that the Duclos letter was being discussed ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, I couldn't.
Mr. Velde. You were too new at that time ?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Clardt. You weren't far enough on the inside to be taken into
the
Mrs. Churchill. No, they don't take you into confidence until you
are there for a while, and they find out if you are worthy or not.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Churchill, I am anxious to get your opinion
about this, or judgment about it: It has been shown to be absolutely
fundamental that the Communist Party, in order to attain its long-
range objectives, makes recruiting into the party one of its primary
objectives, immediate objectives. Now, what is the effect upon that
objective; that is, the matter of recruitment, of division of the party
into small groups of four for security purposes ? "Wliat is the effect
that that has upon recruiting into the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I don't believe that it has a very good effect
because they can't work as well with the groups of four, because they
were instructed not to contact — in our party we were — the members of
these groups are not to contact the leaders. They were to give any in-
formation they want to find out to the chairman, and he was the only
one to contact the leader, or the organizer in the party, and I don't
think that actually helped the party any.
Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, it very much limits the Com-
munist Party in its operations, doesn't it?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes.
5560 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. And reduced it more or less to the hard core mem-
bership.
Mrs. Churchill, Well, I think you will find that most of the mem-
bers that are in the party today are hard core members. They are
willing to follow discipline and to follow orders without question be-
cause I think most of the people got out that weren't willing to go
along with this new setup of subversion.
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask your judgment about this: Was the
membership, when segregated into small groups of 4, more or less
isolated from close observation of the party as a whole, given a better
opportunity to break away from the Communist Party and sever con-
nections with it ?
Mrs. Churchh^l. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Than it would be if they were operated as formerly ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, that is true; they could break away from the
party very easily in these small groups, because they are not watched,
only by certain people. That would be only about 4 people. When
you are in a larger group, you are having more contact with more
people, and more visitation into your home and so on than you would
have in your smaller groups.
Mr. Tavenner. And may I ask you if this is another logical result
of the necessity of the Communist Party to resort to these methods,
and that is that there is no excuse for young people in universities or
elsewhere under these circumstances to be duped into becoming mem-
bers of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, that is true; there isn't any excuse for any-
body staying in.
Mr. Ta\tenner. I do not believe that I have asked you what, in
your judgment, was the approximate overall membership of the Com-
munist Party in the Saginaw section of the Communist Party. Have
you ever had those figures available to you ?
Mr. Churchill. Well, not in the overall. In relation to Pontiac
I don't know what their membership was there, but in relation to Flint
at one time the list I had there was over a hundred members. Of
course some of them have dropped out, and some of them have been
added.
In Saginaw, Bay City, and ]\Iidland the membership was not large.
One was 12, and 8*, and Midland, I think, had only ?> or 4, as I remem-
ber, what they told me.
Mr. Tavenner. You have described the state of the party here in
Flint when the colonizers were sent it. What, in your judgment,
would have happened to the Communist Party in this area had that
plan not been resorted to ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I think that probably the party would just
have — there might have been a few, but a very few people — that the
party would have gone along, but they would have wanted to be
called Communists ; they might have been active in the shops, but as
far as the party proper, I don't think it would be much of a party.
It would have just disseminated, that is all.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Is there any other phase of Communist Party activ-
ities which we have not developed as fully as you think the committee
would be interested in hearing?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I think probably the only thing that I would
emphasize is the fact that the discipline that the colonizers are imbued
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5561
"with, because I know at various times when we have put out mimeo-
graphed material, they have worked all night and worked all day, and
as long as it was for the cause, they were perfectly willing to spend a
few sleepless nights, and I think that the discipline probably of the
colonizers, and they are willing to follow orders. I think that some
of the older members in the party sometimes questioned soft assign-
ments that they are given and oftentimes they don't carry these out,
but you will never find a colonizer questioning anything. They just
go ahead.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you directed to cease the use of the name
"colonizer" at any period ?
Mrs. Churchill. No, we never were. I might say this in relation
to the colonizers, that when they came into Flint, it became known
throughout the city that the party was sending in people for the
direct purpose of connnunistic activities; the city became quite con-
cerned as a whole, and the police department became very active in
relation to ferreting out these people, and I think they should be
given credit for it because nobody knows exactly all the hours and
the efforts that were put in by these people and the investigating that
they did, and I think there is one other thing I would like to bring out.
During the time that Joseph Brant was here, we formed what we
called a women's commission, and this women's commission dealt pri-
marily with the youth question, and we talked about literature for
children, and that was small children, not probably in the ages of the
teens, I might say. It was below that, and we were trying to find
literature which would fit in, and we were advised by the State com-
mittee that we had literature for this purpose of indoctrinating the
very young into the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask you this : There is little doubt about the
attitude of the rank and file members of the unions in the various
plants you have described as to what their attitude was against com-
munism, but have you, from your experience in the Communist Party,
anything to suggest as to what the leadership in the unions might do
to rid itself of any possible Communist Party influences ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, I think some of the examples that our lead-
ership in the AC probably used was pretty good because when we went
to talk to them, they were very polite to us, but we accomplished
nothing. We could get nothing in the paper, and oftentimes when
you would go to union meetings we couldn't get the floor. They
could see everybody but a Communist, and they simply were just
discouraged.
Mr. Ta^tenner. We have found the results just the contrary in
places wliere the leadership of the union was heavily controlled by
the Communist Party.
Mrs. Churchill. I can only speak for the AC local in relation to
this because I am quite concerned about the Chevrolet local. In fact,
I called up somebody at the Chevrolet one time when one of their
articles came out in the Searchlight, and I asked them if the leadership
knew these articles were being printed in the paper, and the party that
answered the telephone said, "Well, naturally." So it isn't any ignor-
ance on the part of anybody.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
48861— 54— pt. 8 6
5562 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF ]VnCHIGAN
Mr. Velde. Mr, Chairman, I would like to clarify the testimony of
this, very fine witness to ask again how you happened to become a
member of the Communist Party in Flint in the first place.
Mrs. Chuechill. Well, one reason was because I was very active in
the Workers' iVlliance, and it is a Communist front, and it was under
investigation by the State police and the FBI.
Mr. Velde. But you actually became a member of the Communist
Party at the request of the FBI ?
Mrs. Cjiurchill. That is right.
Mrs. Velde. And you had no intentions of following the Commu-
nist ideology or Communist teachings except to do a patriotic service
to the FBI and to your country ?
Mrs. Churchill. I was quite surprised that they even accepted me
as a member in the Communist Party because I am sure that members
knew of my antipathy toward the party.
Mr. Velde. Then you remained in the section that you spoke of
until 1950?
Mrs. Churchill. That is right.
Mr. Velde. If you can, can you tell us how you happened to leave
the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, my organizer told me that I was going
underground and that he didn't wish for me to attend any more open
meetings, but that I was to be nice and speak to and attend meetings
of the Progressive Party, and if I would see a Communist on the
street, I would pass the time of day with him and be nice to him and
so on and so forth.
]\Ir. Velde. During the time that you were a member of the Com-
munist Party you did make regular reports to the FBI ?
Mrs. Churchill. Yes, I made regular reports until — there was a
period that I didn't, and I made regular reports to the city.
Mr. Velde. Mrs. Churchill, let me say this again, that I personally
and on behalf of the committee, and I am sure my good colleague will
agree with me, thank you for the very excellent presentation you have
made and the information which you have given. I am sure that the
people of Flint and the people of the State of Michigan likewise appre-
ciate the terror and qualms of conscience that must have disturbed
you during the time that you were a member of the Communist Party
as an undercover agent for the FBI.
Mr. Clardy. I join in that, Congressman. I want to just add this,
Mrs. Churchill : We have had a considerable number of witnesses be-
fore us from time to time who have contributed a great deal to the
necessary knowledge this committee must possess if it is to discharge
the duties imposed upon it by the Congress of the United States,
but I do not think anyone has contributed any more than you ha,ve,
not only to us, to the Congress, but you have contributed miglitily,
I think, to understanding in the locality and in the State of IVIichigan.
I want you to know that the committee, and speaking for myself
personally, appreciate it very, very much. I hope that your Govern-
ment will some day find some better way to repay you for the magnifi-
cent service you have rendered.
Mrs. Churchill. Mr. Clardy, there is just one more statement that
I would like to make in relation to my work. There have been infil-
trations of the Communists into various public places, I might say,
and I have contacted these people, and I have presented my case to
COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5563
them, and tliey are cleaning out these people and have assured me
that there will be no more of this, to their knowledge, and if they felt
that there might be, they would contact somebody, if there is any doubt
in their mind, and so I haven't named any organizations that I intended
to name because I feel that as long as they are willing to cooperate
with us, that it would be a detriment to them to bring their names in.
Mr. Clardt. You are doing exactly the thing the committee wishes
done and of which we heartily approve, so you are excused with the
grateful thanks of this committee.
Before I call the next witness, I received a communication which
happened to be addressed to me, but it is intended for the committee.
It is of the character, Mr. Chairman, that I think ought to be read
into the record because the committee has been accused so much and
so maliciously of seeking to destroy labor unions and to do other things
that are against the best interests of many of the finest citizens of this
land.
This letter reads :
I belong to the Fur and Leather Workers Union which I am not proud of,
and I have tried every way I could to bring another union to our shop,
and it is named, but I shall not read that,
but lose the vote by them being more expert at undermining the people. They
have a meeting and spread discrimination to the colored people and try to set
one on the other at the factory. There is no discrimination in our factory, as
I work side by side with colored and don't resent it, for we all have to make
a living. It was mentioned at one meeting that if Ben Gold was a Communist,
it was his business, and as long as he did his job in the union, he was proud
of him for owning up to it.
and incidentally, Ben Gold, the head of that union, was recently
convicted.
Mr. Velde. I might say that I understand that Ben Gold was just
recently reelected unanimously as president of the International Fur
and Leather Workers.
Mr. Clardy. Since he was convicted.
Mr. Velde. Despite the fact that he had been convicted of violation
of the Smith Act.
Mr. Clardy. (continues reading) :
We don't want a union like that. Our dues help to support them, and if we
don't pay union dues, they're protected by law for we have a closed shop, and
we would be out of a job for, believe me, they have a strong hold "on the minority,
and the people who don't have the sense to think for themselves. We are hoping
that your committee will help to expose our union all the way. We pay $3 a
month and never get no parties or nothing, and we are supposed to be broiie and
in debt. Why does the Government protect them by not outlawing our union
so I can feel decent? I and others have brothers in service and don't want to
pay dues to that union, but our hands are tied. Hope you can talk to someone
to help us for, God knows, we need it bad at our shop. You should read the
tripe it prints in the paper it sends us, how our Government got weaknesses to
lie and threaten them and their jobs to testify against Ben Gold at his trial.
They even wanted us to donate to fight it. Thank you for your time to read this —
and it isn't signed. Then this follows :
I can't sign my name for they would make it rough at the shop. They think
we have no mind of our own, but I am afraid I am one fool that has. Thanks
again,
and then a P. S. which I shall not read because it gives some confiden-
tial information.
5564 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
That letter to me is one of the most appealing that the committee
has received during the time I have been on it because it demonstrates
something that is illustrated by a great many other communications
we have received, and that is, that in these Communist-dominated
unions there is a strong feeling of desire on the part of the honest,
loyal American workingmen to rid themselves of that subversive in-
fluence. At the hearing at Detroit four from another union in the
State have approached me and asked me if we couldn't render them
help in getting rid of the Communist leadership in another union
here in the State, and I have had telephone calls imploring the same
thing.
I feel confident, as we said at the beginning, that the vast majority
of the members of the unions, not only in Flint, but in the State and
in the United States, feel exactly as this one feels who wrote so mov-
ingly the letter I have just read.
We will take a 5-minute recess.
Mr, Velde. Before we take a recess, Mr. Chairman, it was brought
to my attention that I made an incorrect statement regarding the
conviction of Ben Gold. Ben Gold was convicted for perjury instead
of for violation of the Smith Act. and the perjury, I believe, was in
connection with his Communist activities.
Mr. Tavenner. Non-Communist affidavit.
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. That is right. You can thank the activities of this
committee and its recommendations for the conviction that has re-
sulted.
We will recess for 5 minutes.
("Whereupon, at 2: 48 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 2: 54 p.m.)
(Whereupon, at 3 : 03 p. m., the hearing was reconvened.)
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session. Call your next wit-
ness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Howard Falk, will you come forward, please?
Mr. Clardy. Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothinc: but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Falk. I do.
IVIr. Clardy. You may be seated. Will Counsel identify himself?
Mr. Bragman. Melvin Bragman.
Mr. Clardy. I think the Chair is moved to remark at this time as
we have at the other hearings that it would be distinctly unfair for
anyone to draw any erroneous conclusions from the fact that attorneys
appear with the witnesses called before us, and as a member of the
bar myself, in full recognition of the fact that we are officers of the
court and are bound to use our talents when called on, the committee
wants it understood that it is not in any way casting any reflections
upon any member of the bar who may appear here.
Now, if you are ready, ISIr. Tavenner, you may proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5565
TESTIMONY OF HOWARD IRA FALK, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, MELVIN BRAGMAN
Mr. Falk. My name is Howard Falk.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Falk?
Mr. Falk. I was born in the St. Marks Hospital, New York City,
on August 15, 1927.
Mr. Tavexxer. Do you have a middle name ?
Mr. Falk. My middle name is Ira, I-r-a.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you known by a nickname as Howie?
Mr. Falk. Possibly, yes.
Mr. Tavexxer. Well, that is a fact, isn't it ?
Mr. Bragmax. Mr. Tavenner, I would request that — —
Mr. Clardt. Pardon, Counsel. I am sure you are familiar with
the rules. If your witness has a a sug-gestion, he may make it to us.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I would just like to make the request that no pictures
be taken while I testify because the flash bulbs are very disturbing.
Mr. Clardy. We do not have a rule forbidding it, but if you make
that request, the photographers are requested to be as unobtrusive as
possible and not to interfere with the wishes of the witness on the
stand.
Proceed.
Mr. Tavexxer. You say you are possibly known as Howie. You
are known as Howie, aren't you ?
Mr. Falk. Well, that is one of the nicknames that is usually used
for the name Howard.
Mr. Tavexxer. And you were known and signed your name that
way frequently, didn't you ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I usually sign my name Howard Falk. Possibly on per-
:sonal letters, et cetera, I might use the name Howie.
Mr. Tavexxer. What is your occupation, Mr. Falk?
Mr. Falk. At present I am a factory worker.
Mr. Ta^t:xxer. Wliere do you work?
Mr. Falk. I work at the Buick.
Mr. Tavexxer. What is the nature of your employment there?
Mr. Falk. Production work.
Mr. Tavexxer. Production? Will you define the nature of your
work a little more in detail, please?
Mr. Clardt. Mr. Tavenner, we have a phone call from Wasliington.
We will suspend a moment because the quorum of the committee will
be broken unless we do.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Clardy. May I suggest, this is not a recess, and I would request
that the audience remain as quiet as possible because we may resume
at any moment. It is most difficult, I should tell you, to hear up here,
and the slightest rustling and murmuring somehow or other comes
right up and hits our eardrums. It is not very good acoustically.
I am glad we have the P. A. system or I don't think we would liear
anything, but at any rate, I would appreciate it if you could remain
5566 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
as quiet as you can so that the committee and yourselves as well may
hear the testimony which is presented.
I know how difficult it is to remain quiet as long as you have to,
but it is just as hard on us here, too.
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Clardt. You may proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe I asked you to describe a little more in
detail the nature of your duties at Buick.
Mr. Falk. At present I am a milling machine operator.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a milling machine
operator ?
Mr. Falk. For approximately the last couple of years, I would say.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did your employment begin at Buick?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I started employment at the Buick on September 16,
1949.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your employment when
you began your work at Buick?
Mr. Falk. I believe the first job that I had was as a foot-press
operator.
Mr. Tavenner. Making what?
Mr. Falk. I believe they were push rods.
Mr. Tavenner. Have vou worked there continuously at Buick since
September 16, 1949?
Mr. Falk. Yes, I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cational training has been ?
Mr. Falk. My educational training has been grade school, 4 years of
high school at Stuyvesant High School, 4 years of college at the City
College in New York City.
Mr. Clardt. Wliat do you mean by that 4 years of college ? Was it
in literary college or was it in some specialized training course ?
Mr. Falk. I was an engineering student in electrical engineering.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was that, at City College ?
Mr. Falk. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you had any other educational training ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I don't exactly get the meaning of the question, but I be-
lieve I could answer it in the way of saying no other formal education.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the year in which you completed your
formal educational training at City College ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. It was in 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wlien did you enter the school ?
Mr. Falk. I believe it was in 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive a degree ?
Mr. Falk. I did.
Mr. TA^T.NNER. Wliat degree did you receive ?
]Mr. Falk. Bachelor of electrical engineering.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is the date on which your degree was
awarded ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5567
Mr. Falk. I am not positive of that. I believe it was officially
dated in June of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Could it have been as late as August or Sej^tember
of 1949?
Mr. Falk. I did attend school during that summer session in
order to complete a number of credits toward my degree, but I am not
positive of the official graduation date that appeared there.
Mr. Tavenner. But you were in attendance at City College, New
York, in the course of your formal educational training up as late as
August or September 1949 ?
Mr. Falk. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you arrive in the State of Michigan?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to your taking a position with Buick on
September 16, 1949.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I don't recall the exact date. It was some time about the
second week of September in 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Wiere did you go or where did you come to in the
State of Michigan ? Was it Detroit or Flint or where ?
Mr. Falk. Well, I came to the city of Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. You came directly to the city of Flint from New
York?
Mr. Falk. Well, I don't know how you mean that. I traveled here
via Detroit.
Mr. Ta\T!:nner. Well, did you stop over in Detroit ?
Mr. Falk. No, not that I recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you certain ?
Mr. Falk. I believe that there was some interval between the train
and the bus or something of that sort, but
Mr. Ta%'enner. Did you confer with anyone in the city of Detroit
before coming to Flint ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. My impression of that question is that it is the type
of question which is directed toward involving my name with the
names of other people. Since this is a type of question which I feel
that I should not answer, I am going to decline to answer that question.
Mr. Clardt. The chair directs that you answer it.
(At this point Mr, Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I refuse to answer that question on the following grounds
and for the following reasons : First, that the question makes inquiry
into my political activities and that this is a field in which Congress
can make no laws and which this committee can ask no questions, this
being prohibited by the first amendment of the Constitution of the
United States; second, that I have a right under the first amendment
to the United States Constitution to remain silent as well as a right
to speak; thirdly, that the question propounded is an unreasonable
search of my person in violation of the fourth amendment to the
United States Constitution ; f ourthlv, that under the fifth amendment
to the United States Constitution I have a right not to be a witness
against myself, that this committee is attempting to deprive me with-
out due process of law, of my life, liberty, and property, and therefore
I am not required to answer the question which would aid them to
do that, that these proceedings are inherently in the nature of a crim-
5568 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
inal prosecution, and that therefore I am entitled to trial by an impar-
tial jury, and therefore do not feel that I have to answer the questions
when I do not have the jury that I have been guaranteed by the sixth
amendment to the United States Constitution; that under the tenth
amendment to the United States Constitution Congress has been del-
egated only certain powers and that among them is not listed the right
to make inquiry into my political beliefs, to make laws which would
prohibit the free exercise of the freedom of speech or of the right of
the people to peaceably assemble, and therefore I feel that this com-
mittee is not acting within one of the delegated powers of Congress,
and that therefore I do not have to answer this question.
Mr. Clardy. Have you completed it, Mr. Falk. You paused there,
and I wanted to be sure, because I have a question I would like to
propound. Have you finished your recitation of reasons for refus-
ing?
Mr. Falk. I have, Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. What charge has been laid against you up to this
moment ?
Mr. Falk. Mr. Clardy, the very fact that I have been brought up
before these hearings constitutes some sort of a feeling or direction
that there is something wrong with me, and the very fact that my
name will appear in the papers as having been a witness here consti-
tutes some sort of onus on my name.
Mr. Clardy. Well, now —
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Velde. Thank you.
Mr. Clardy. After all, you are my superior officer, and I surely
bow to you, sir. Proceed.
Mr. Velde. Well, of course, we have heard the same type of response
the witness is giving now all over the country.
Mr. Clardy. Exactly.
Mr. Velde. And I want to clear up something in your mind, if I
can, that this committee is not a prosecuting agency of any type or
description. It is not a court of law. The Congress of the United
States has placed an obligation upon this Un-American Activities
Committee to investigate subversive activities and subversive prop-
aganda and report to the Congress of the United States for the pur-
poses of remedial legislation. If you would answer the questions
that have been propounded to you by counsel and by Mr. Clardy, I
am sure that any suspicion of you by the press, by the public, would
certainly be removed, and so again t am going to ask that the Chair
direct the witness to answer the question relative to his contacts at
the Detroit Airport.
Mr. Clardy. I shall do so, but first I want to pursue the line I
started for a moment before I order him to answer the original ques-
tion because your second answer, witness, was no more than a para-
phrasing of the first answer. You spoke of some sort of charge.
Now, my question was and still is, What is that "some sort of charge"
that has been laid against you, if you know of any ?
Mr. Falk. Mr. Clardy, as I understand the operation of the Bill
of Rights, and in particular, the fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights,
a person who testifies as I am testifying today and answers questions
which may seemingly be innocent, which may seemingly have noth-
COMMXnsriST activities in the state of MICHIGAN 5569
ing to do with aiiythiiiij bad or derogatory, by answerino; these ques-
tions, can open himself up to a chain of questioning which may lead
to deroo:atory matters.
Mr. Clardy. If that is the case, witness, you have already opened
the door ; in fact, you have taken it off the hinges, when you suggested
that there was some sort of charge laid against you. Now all I am
seeking to discover is what is it that you are apprehensive about in
the nature of a charge, because I can assure you, no charge has been
laid against you.
You are being afforded, as Chairman Velde has suggested, an oppor-
tunity at the time you were called to the stand and the first time that
your name has been mentioned by this committee, to say anything
and everything you wish in defense against any charge, even though
it may be imaginary, but which you conceive has been laid against you.
Now, I don't want you to go forth after this meeting, this hearing
today, and be quoted as having said that this was an inquisition-which
denied you the opportunity to speak freely, frankl}^, nnd fully in your
own defense, but to come back to my question, what is this vague some
sort of — to use your own words — charge or charges that you think
have been laid against you ?
Now, if 3^ou can't answer it or you want to decline, you have the
privilege of doing so ; even though we may think you are in error, we
wall acknowledge your right to take the stand as you wish and either
to say yes or no or give some other sort of an answer or refuse to
answer.
We may differ with you, and you may do this at your own peril some-
times, but I just want to let you know, you can say what you wish
in that regard.
Now, tell me the charge.
Mr. Falk. Well, first I might mention that I have already been
charged through the newspapers by this committee
Mr. Clardt. Not by this committee.
Mr. Falk. By this committee of being arrogant, and I will ex-
plain how.
Mr. Clardy. When was that made ?
Mr. Falk. I read this in the newspapers in the last several days.
Mr. Clardy. Who made it?
Mr. Falk. Somebody connected . with the committee made the
statement
Mr. Clardy. Identify him,
Mr. Falk. I don't recall the person, but I am sure you will remem-
ber the incident if I bring it out to you.
Mr. Clardy. No; there is no such incident. That is why it can't
be recalled, but at any rate, I think I will now direct you, because it
is obvious that you really have no charge in mind to answer the initial
question asked by counsel.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman. )
Mr, Clardy, Did you understand the direction of the Chair?
Mr. Falk. I am trying to get advice from my counsel.
Mr. Clardy. Well, you consulted a long time awhile ago, and I don't
like to waste any more than I have to. Are you consulting with your
counsel on the original question again ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
5570 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. While counsel is looking it up, I am going to ask you
another one and suspend asking you that.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Clardy. Pay attention to me for a moment. Did you issue
any statement to the press identifying yourself as a witness who had
been subpenaed by this committee prior to today ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. No ; I did not.
Mr. Clardy. You did not ?
Mr. Falk. No ; I did not.
Mr. Clardy. You did not release any news whatever to the press?
Had your name been mentioned as a subpenaed witness ?
Mr. Falk. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Now answer the original question. You
may consult with counsel.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr.' Falk. Would you please repeat the original question ? It seems
quite awhile. I don't recall it.
Mr. Clardy. Read it, Miss Reporter, if you can find it.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe I can save time.
Mr. Clardy. All right, Mr. Tavenner. Restate it.
Mr. Tavenner. On your way to Flint did you confer with anyone
in Detroit ?
Mr. Clardy. That is the question I directed you to answer, and I
again do so.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I am going to decline to answer that question on the
same grounds as I previously stated, primarily on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. That is your privilege granted to you by the fifth
amendment against self-incrimination.
Mr. Falk. On the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a statement which
I have previously made many times.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Velde. Concerning the witnesses who refuse to answer under
the grounds of the fifth amendment. There has never been a witness
who has come before the Un-American Activities Committee in its 15
years of existence, or, as far asT know, before any other committee
of Congress, who has ever been prosecuted for a crime growing out
of his testimony when he answered the questions and answered the
(questions truthfully. Now, if you will answer the questions instead of
taking the fifth amendment and the others that you have mentioned,
I am satisfied — I can't guarantee it, of course — but I am satisfied that
you will not be prosecuted for any crime growing out of the answers to
the questions that you may give here.
Mr. Clardy. May I add, Mr. Chairman, this further observation,
that while I have introduced a bill to make it a crime to belong to the
Communist Party, because I regard it not as a party, but as a criminal
conspiracy, at the moment it is not a crime to admit that ycu belong
to or have belonged to the Communist Party. Now, that is not
involved in this question, but if that is your apprehension, that you
will be prosecuted because the chain of questioning may lead to an
eventual response as to whether you are or have been a meniber, I can
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5571
assure you that if that is it, you can't be prosecuted, and you won't
be. If, of course, in the back of your head is the idea thnt we may
endeavor to discover whether you have engaged in any subversive
activities or whether you liave belonged to some organization dedi-
cated to the overthrow of this Government through force and violence,
your apprehension may be well founded, but only if that is the case.
It has to be something of that kind.
Now you have declined, as I understand, to answer this last question,
am I correct?
Mr. Falk. Tliat is correct.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Was your original destination upon leaving New
York, Detroit or Flint?
Mr. Falk. It was Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you make your arrangements to come
to Flint?
Mr. Falk. I don't know what you mean by arrangements.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have employment lined up in Flint before
leaving New York?
Mr. Falk. No; I did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you written for employment, made any appli-
cation for employment before leaving New York?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. No; I did not.
Mr. Ta^t:nner. How soon after your arrival in New Yoi'k did you
make application for employment at the Buick plant?
Mr. Clardy. Did you say at New York or from New lork?
Mr. Tavenner. I meant to say in Flint.
Mr. Falk. I couldn't state that accurately. It was within a day or
a day and a half, some short period.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of an application for
emiDloyment, Buick motor division, Flint, Mich., bearing date of Sep-
tember 14, 1949, and I will ask you to examine it and state whether
or not your signature appears thereon and whether it is your applica-
tion for employment.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. Would you please restate the question ?
Mr. Taat3nner. Please read him the question.
(The question was read by the reporter as follows:)
I hand you a photostatic copy of an application for employment, Buick motor
division, Flint, Mich., bearing date of September 14, 1949, and I will ask you to
examine it and state whether or not your signature appears thereon and whether
it is your application for employment.
Mr. Falk. I see in front of me an application which you say is my
application for employment at the Buick
Mr. Clardy. Correction, witness. He is asking you if it is.
Mr. Falk. I decline to answer whether or not it is.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine
Mr. Clardy. Pardon, Mr. Tavenner. The Chair directs that you
answer that question. This is a matter of record on which you may
not properly invoke the fifth amendment in the opinion of the com-
mittee.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, I believe that counsel should divide his
question there. There are two questions in one there. If you will
5572 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
direct the witness to answer the question as to whether or not that is
his signature first
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please examine the signature appearing
on the second page of the document and state whether or not it is
a copy of your signature.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that I
have previously stated.
Mr. Velde. And the Chair accordingly directs that you answer it
for the reasons w^e previously stated.
Mr. Falk. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that I
enumerated in the previous question.
Mr. Clardt. Now phrase the last half of the question, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it your application for employment at the Buick
plant?
Mr. Clardt. ISIay I suggest an amendment to that? Photostatic
copy of his application.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Clardy. And you are accordingly directed again to answer that
question.
Mr. Falk. I decline again.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Falk Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Clardy. It will be received.
(Photostatic copy of application for employment, Buick motor
division, Flint, Mich., Sej^tember 14, 1949, marked "Falk Exhibit
No. 1" was received in evidence.) ^
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state, read into the record, please, the
name appearing at the bottom of the second page of the application ;
that is, of document, Falk exhibit No. 1 ? I am asking you to read the
name that appears there. I am not asking you if it is yours.
(At this point ]\Ir. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. A^Hiich page are you referring to ?
Mr. Tavenner. I think it is on the second page, the name of the
applicant.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Clardy. Are you ready to answer the question ?
Mr. Falk. No, I am not ready to answer the question. I am trying
to get counsel from my lawyer, but it seems obvious to me that this
type of questioning must be intended in some way to get me legally
Avrapped up, and that perhaps it is the intention of this committee to
try to pin contempt citations on people, perhaps.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, may I assure you we make no effort to do it
at all. If there is ever any contempt proceeding, the witness, to use
your phrase, ties it on himself.
Mr. Falk. Mr. Clardy, I don't believe you are sincere and truthful
in this matter. You were not when you took oath of office ; betrayed
public trust.
Mr. Clardy. Will you please. There is no question pending to
you, sir.
^ Retained in pommittee files.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5573
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, this is ridiculous, absohitely ridiculous.
Mr. Clardy was elected by the people of this congressional district to
represent this district in Congress, the Congress of the United States,
and I can assure you that he has done so faithfully and well, and any
attack on Mr. Clardy, as chairman of this subcommittee will be an
attack on your Congress of the United States.
Mr. Falk. I am not trying to attack anybody, I merely want to
state the facts when I present my point of view here.
Mr. Clardy. No question is pending. You declined to answer and
you are merely making an observation not called for. Are you ready
to answer the question ?
Mr. Tavenner. I think I can help the witness.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Tavenner. I believe I can help the witness in the answer to
that matter. It could not possibly incriminate you to read what is on
the record. That is all I have asked you. There is no possible basis
for self-incrimination to read at the direction of the committee what
appears on a piece of paper.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Clardy. I think I am compelled to add to that, Mr. Tavenner,
the fact that it will not incriminate you, witness — might lead to a pos-
sible citation for contempt as you, yourself, suggested a moment ago.
Now, merely reciting the name on there cannot in any way be a crime
unless to possess the name that you read is that of a criminal. Now,
will you read it ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. Mr. Clardy, the question here in my mind is again the
question of waiving my privilege, and I feel I have to consult further
with my counsel. I can't take the advice of the counsel of the com-
mittee as being intended in my
Mr. Clardy. I was not giving you any advice.
Mr. Falk. In my favor.
Mr. Clardy. I was merely stating the legal position the committee
takes so that you might be apprised of the risk you may be taking if
you refuse to comply with counsel's request.
You have the right, you have the right under our procedure to con-
tinue in refusing, but I again must remind you, you must do so at your
own peril, and I don't want to hear you claiming that the committee is
res])onsible for the consequences of your own act.
Now, if you want to consult with him more, although we have
wasted a lot of time on this, you may do so.
Mr. Tavenner. Witness, I have already asked you whether it was
your signature, and you refused to answer. I am asking you now to
read into the record merely what appears on the paper. That is my
sole question.
Mr. Falk. My only purpose in delaying on this question is my con-
cern over waiving my right to decline, and therefore I feel that this
time should be allowed for my lawyer to consider it.
Mr. Clardy. We are allowing you time. I am merely pointing out
you have wasted a lot of it to no consequence, but we are not going to
iiurry you; if your attorney wants more time, that is all right. If it
reaches the stage of a filibuster, we may move on.
6574 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
I wonder, witness, if I waved before you a copy of the New Testa-
ment and asked you to read a verse from it, would you decline to read
that?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I don't see any reason why anyone should decline to read
that.
Mr. Clardy. I can't hear you.
Mr. Falk. I don't see any reason why anyone should decline to
read that.
Mr. Clardy. But you would, and are on the verge, I take it, of de-
clining to read your own signature. Isn't that the fact ?
Mr. Falk. Mr. Clardy, I am concerned with retaining my constitu-
tional rights at this hearing, and I am trying to get advice from my
lawyer as to whether or not answering the question asked will waive
these rights.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, I think for the moment I will ask you to
withdraw that question and move on to another one and see what luck
we have with that.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe counsel is now advising his client.
Mr. Clardy. All right. Counsel, I may say that nothing the Chair
or Mr. Velde has said is intended in any way to bring reflection upon
you whatsoever.
Mr. Velde. I certainly concur in that statement.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Continue to confer with your counsel, as he tried to
speak to you several times.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. My lawyer gives me the option that reading this docu-
ment will in no way be injurious to me. Therefore — which was it that
you wanted me to read ?
Mr. Clardy. Your signature at the bottom. Read the name, whether
it is yours or not, read it.
Mr. Falk. I read the name on the bottom of this statement, and as
T read it, it says "Howard" — and I can't quite make out the last name
because it is blotted — the middle name which appears to be inserted
there is Ira, I-r-a.
Mr. Clardy. Those are your two first names, aren't they ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. My first name is Howard. My middle name is Ira.
Mr. Clardy. There is a remarkable similarity to what you just told
us.
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Now that you have it. Counsel, I will ask you, does the last name
"Falk" appear anywhere on the document?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the document again on the sec-
ond page, opposite the column which states "Motor" and will you see
what name appears and read the name into the record ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I see a line here that begins with the word "Motor."
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, and just opposite in the next column.
Mr. Falk. What follows it is "Mrs. M. Falk." I believe that
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell
Mr. Falk. I believe that it is F-a-l-k.
COJMMUlSriST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5575
Mr. Clardt. I want iL Mr. Tavenner, to be perfectly plain on the
record that reading that last name carries no implication of any kind,
good, bad, or indifferent. I want that distinctly to show.
Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Now will you examine the signature of the appli-
cant and state whether or not the same letters appear there, F-a-l-k?
Mr. Falk. I couldn't say positively whether they are the same
letters.
Mr. Ta\tenner. How many letters do appear there ?
Mr. Falk. It appears to be four letters. They are written differently
from the other letters you refer to.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state the number of letters that you can
recognize in the four-letter name ?
Mr. Falk. I can recognize the last letter which is "k" and the letter
before it which is "1."
Mr. Tavenner. Can you not recognize the second letter as "a"?
Mr. Falk. It might possibly be an "a." I don't want to quibble
over the point. The only thing I am concerned about is my legal rights
in this matter and not quibbling about what the handwriting might
look like.
Mr. Tavenner. It looks like an "a" to you, doesn't it ?
Mr. Falk. If you would venture your opinion, I am sure the matter
could be cleared up very quickly.
Mr. Tavenner. Doesn't the letter look like an "a" to you ?
Mr. Falk. Yes, it looks like an "a,"
Mr. Clardy. Pardon me. Is that name written in much the style
that you use ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I don't know exactly what my opinion on that would be.
I don't think it is particularly important.
Mr. Clardt. You mean you haven't signed your name often enough
to have an opinion on that ? Surely you know your own style ; if it
is as bad as mine, I can understand why you can't quite make out some
of it there, but isn't it in the general style that you use in signing your
name?
Mr. Falk. It may be in the general style which I use in signing my
name.
Mr. Clardy. Is there any other person by the name listed on that
document employed at the plant where you work ?
Mr. Falk. Not that I know of.
Mr. Clardt. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr, Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
during the course of your educational training at City College you
were granted a leave of absence from that institution to enter the
Armed Forces ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. Yes, I was granted such a leave.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat period of time did you serve in the Armed
Forces ?
Mr. Falk. Approximately from the spring of 1945 until the sum-
mer of 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you entered the City College in 1944 or 1945?
Mr. Falk. 1944, as I remember.
5576 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. And you returned after serving in the armed serv-
ices in the year 1U40 to complete your educational training ^
Mr. Falk. That is correct.
Mr, Tavenner. During the period from 1944 to 1949 when you com-
pleted your training, exclusive of the period when you were in the
service, did you have any employment ?
Mr. Clardy. Miss Keporter, are you recording each time when
there is a conference between counsel that there is such a conference ?
The Reporter. Yes, sir.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I was employed during that period.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your employment?
Mr. Falk. I had several part-time jobs.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of them ?
Mr. Falk. Well, I don't know to which one you refer. Do you want
me to describe several of them or
Mr. Tavenner. In 1949 how were you employed ?
Mr. Falk. Oh, I believe I worked in the laboratory at the college
as an assistant on, I don't know, doing odd jobs around in the labora-
tory there.
Mr. Tavenner. Any other employment during 1949 ?
Mr. Falk. Oh, you were speaking of 1949. What I mentioned hap-
pened around the period of 1944. In and around 1949 — I can't recall
any at the moment.
Mr. Tavt;nner. 1948?
Mr. Falk. I believe I had a job as an office boy for a short time dur-
ing that period.
Mr. Tavenner. By whom were you employed ?
Mr. Falk. I don't recall the name of the office. It was a part-time
job during the summer.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you have that part-time employment
in an office?
Mr. Falk. It was the summertime employment.
Mr. Tavenner. During the year 1948 ?
Mr. Falk. I don't recall whether it was 1948 or 1947. It was 1
of those 2 summers.
Mr. Tavenner. I notice on the exhibit Falk No. 1 that there is
stated that there was employment at Master Craft Model & Molding
Co., Long Island City, as a messenger, general work around shop.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Tavenner. From October 1946 to August 1949 ?
Mr. Falk. Would you please repeat that question. I am very sorry.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, may I suggest, when Mr. Tavenner or the
committee members start asking you a question, I wish you would not
do as you did then and spend that time consulting with counsel. We
will give you time, as we have, after the question is propounded, but
here again you are delaying us by compelling us to read it over again,
where if you listened it would not have been necessary. Will you read
it, Miss Reporter.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think I can repeat it.
Mr. Clardy. All right, maybe we can save time.
Mr. Tavenner. An examination of exhibit Falk No. 1 shows em-
ployment at Master Craft Model & Molding Co., 22-17 Steinway
Street, Long Island City, N. Y., from October 1946 to August 1949.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5577
The duties performed, messenger ; general help around shop. Is that
the employment which you just referred to ?
Mr. Falk. No, it is not.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you employed by the Master Craft Model &
Molding Co. at any time ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. The question had something to do with some company
tliat you were speaking of.
Mr. Clardy. I didn't hear what you said, witness.
Mr. Falk. I say the question had something to do with some com-
l>any or something that you were speaking of there.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you want me to repeat the question ?
Mr. Falk. Well, I would appreciate that.
Mr. Tavenner. My question was whether or not you were employed
by the Master Craft Model & Molding Co. in Long Island City.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I stated before that I worked on odd jobs, and frankly
I don't remember the places where they were.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you work for that particular company ?
Mr. Falk. I don't recall at this time.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not know? There also appears on the
application, Falk exhibit No. 1, the amount of wages or salary received
for employment at the company mentioned over the period I described
at $30 per week. Did you receive a salary of $30 per week from a
company the name of which you do not now recall while attending
school at City College ?
Mr. Falk. Frankly I don't know what you are reading off the docu-
ment. The document is in front of you. If you show it to me, I can
merely
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; I think that is a reasonable
Mr. Falk. I can merely say what you
Mr. Tavenner. That is a reasonable request.
Mr. Falk. I can merely say what is on the document as far as that
goes.
Mr. Clardy. No; we are seeking what you recall, if you listened
carefully to the question. We are seeking to discover whether as a
matter of fact you did receive the amount described, namely, $30.
Mr. Falk. Well, I don't know about this document here, but on
jobs that I have worked on part time, oh, I believe on one I made
about $25, on another about $17, and on others possibly as much as
$30 a week.
Mr. Clardy. Well, Mr. Counsel, I suggest we pass on to another
phase.
ISIr. Tavenner. Now, will you examine the first page of Falk exhibit
No. 1 and state what appears on the document with reference to edu-
cational qualifications or record ?
Mr. Falk. I seen on this document you have given me a heading
"Educational History," is that what you are referring to ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Read it slowly, please.
Mr. Falk. There are several columns. It says "Grade school, P. S.
150, Long Island City." Then it says, "Dates attended, from 1937
to 1940." Then it says "Graduated," and it says "Yes." The next
line says, "J. H. S. 125, Long Island City."
48861— 54— pt. 8 7
5578 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr.TAVENXER. J.H.S.?
Mr. Falk. J. H. S.
Mr. Tavenner. What does "J. H. S." stand for ?
Mr. Falk. It is your document that you are presenting to me.
Mr. Clardy. Oh, Witness, don't fence with us.
Mr. Falk. I could venture an opinion that it is junior high school.
Mr. Tavenner. All right, that is satisfactory.
Mr. Falk. The dates attended are from 1940 to 1941. Under "Grad-
uated," it says "Yes." The next line says "CCNY, NYC."
Mr. Tavenner. What does "CCNY" mean ?
Mr. Falk. I might venture the opinion that it could possibly be
the College of the City of New York or something of that sort. Dates
attended, 1944 to 1945.
Mr. Clardy. Now, do those dates happen to coincide with the dates
of your own educational experience ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. Yes, yes, more or less coincide.
Mr. Clardy. Well, is it more or less or the same ?
Mr. Falk. Well, I would say quite closely, quite closely.
Mr. Clardy. Is there any exception that you can think of ?
Mr. Falk. Well, what I have read already as it is put here, doesn't
include
Mr. Clardy. I am not asking what it leaves out. I am asking you
whether what is there is accurate or not so far as a record of your
own dates are concerned.
Mr. Falk. I would say what is here is just about the same as what
my actual education was so far as
Mr. Clardy. Wliy do you use the word "about." Isn't it an actual
fact that it is precisely the same because that is your application?
Mr. Falk. I have already declined to answer as to whether this
is my application.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the name appearing after the figures City
College, the abbreviation for City College and 44 to 45 ? Isn't there
a name that appears there ? Is it "engineering" ?
Mr. Falk. Wliat I see here is "E-n-g-i-n," period.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, why is it in the making of that application
you did not advise the Buick people that you held a bachelor of elec-
trical engineering degree which you had received just 14 days before
that application was prepared.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I have already declined to answer as to whether this
is my application. Therefore I must continue to decline additional
questions which include any statement that this is my application.
Mr. Clardy. Well, witness, when you applied, regardless of what
the document shows in front of you, did you advise the company to
which you made application of the fact that you possessed this
engineering degree ?
Mr. Falk. In other words, you would like to set this document
aside for the present?
Mr. Clardy. I am not talking about the document at all. I am
asking you why you did not advise them of the fact that you had a
degree in electrical engineering? Why was that fact omitted?
'
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5579
Mr. Falk. Well, I woiild-
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. Well, I would like to answer that in this way. I don't
recall whether or not I mentioned to anybody particularly about
having a degree. What I was concerned with at that time was getting
a job as quickly as possible, a job with regular wages in the factories
here, being able to support myself and looking forward to getting
married, and I did everything possible that I could think of to get
that job as quickly and as effectively as possible.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. You concealed the fact, did you not, that you had
had 4 years of training at City College by stating that you had had
1 year of college from 1944 to 1945?
Mr. Falk. I can't answer any questions which relate to this docu-
ment because I have declined to answer questions relating to this docu-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. But isn't it true that that is what you advised the
Buick people in attempting to obtain a position that you had had only
1 year of college from 1944 to 1945 when, as a matter of fact, only 14
days prior thereto you had received a bachelor of electrical engineering
degree after a 4-year course at college ?
Mr. Falk. It is possible that I did something like that with the
idea in mind that if somebody know that I had an engineering degree,
they would attempt to get me into a clerical job or some other job
classification which I frankly wasn't interested in having. I felt the
wages were better on production, and I wanted some steady work.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman. Do you have a bachelor's degree in
electrical engineering ?
Mr, Falk. I have already stated that before the committee.
Mr. Clardy. Well, just answer the question again then. You do
have, don't you ?
Mr. Falk. Yes, I do.
Mr. Tavenner. And it was awarded you on September 1, 1949, was
it not?
Mr. Falk. I have said I don't recall the exact date, but it is some-
where
Mr. Tavenner. Then Mr. Chairman, I desire to offer in evidence a
letter under date of March 2, 1954, from James S. Peace, associate
dean of the City College, in which it is stated,
Mr. Howard Falk entered the City College in September 1944 and attended
until June 1945. On June 22, 1945, he was granted a leave of absence to serve
with the United States Navy and was discharged by the Navy in August 1946.
In September 1946 Mr. Falk returned to the college and remained in attendance
until August 1949. On September 1, 1949, he was awarded a bachelor of elec-
trical engineering degree,
which I ask be marked "Falk Exhibit No. 2" for identification only.
Mr. Clardy. It will be received.
(The letter of March 2, 1954 marked "Falk Exhibit No. 2" was
received in evidence. ) ^
Mr. Tavenner. Then if I understand your testimony correctly, you
felt you would not be given a job by Buick if it had appeared that you
held the degree of electrical engineering?
1 Retained in committee files.
5580 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Falk. As I stated before, I was interested in getting a produc-
tion job with the relatively high wages compared to clerical work and
other such work involved. I was interested in getting it as quickly as
possible, being able to support myself, and that was the "way that I
proceeded.
Mr. Clardy. Have you at any time since you obtained employment
here in Flint made any effort to make use of the knowledge that you
must have gained in getting that degree ? In other words, have you
at any time sought to obtain a job in the field you fitted yourself for
when you spent the 4 years at City College?
Mr. Falk. No, I have not.
Mr. Clardy. Why?
Mr. Falk. That is a matter of my own personal desires.
Mr. Clardy. I understand that, and I don't intend to pursue it far,
but I am curious to know why you would devote 4 years of a lifetime
to obtaining higher education in a specialized field and then delib-
erately refrain from making any effort to put that to use. That is
why I put the question in one word, why?
Mr. Falk. Mr. Clardy, I consider myself a good father and a good
husband
Mr. Clardy. No one is attacking that at all.
Mr. Falk. I bring money home to my family. I have two small
daughters ; I try to support them, and frankly I don't think there is
anything more that should be expected of me.
Mr. Clardy. Then you are declining to answer my question, as I
phrased it?
' Mr. Falk. No ; I consider that an answer. You have asked me why,
and I explained why.
Mr. Clardy. I trust you will pardon me if I don't regard it as such ;
but pass on, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any other reason for applying for
a job of the character that you did besides the one you have given?
Mr. Falk. I think that question is a little vague. I wish you would
make it more specific so I could answer it.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, I don't think that is called for. I think
that is perfectly clear, so I direct you to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I can't make it any plainer than that.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. As I said, I try to do the best I can for my family,
A man is supposed to be able to work where he pleases. That is what
I understand is freedom in this country. I do know that in certain
countries, for instance in Nazi Germany, people were put in a position
where they had to carry such things as work cards and answer to the
Government for where and why they wanted to work. I don't think
that that is the situation in this country. I pay my taxes, provide
for my family, and frankly I think that that is — you know, that that
is all that is necessary for a person who is working.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman. I want to ask this question: Isn't it
a matter of fact that you were sent as an emissary by the Communist
Party of the United States here to Flint, Mich., to reorganize the Com-
munist Party here in Flint, Mich., and that your reason for not stating
your qualifications, that is, having a bachelor of electrical engineering
degree, was that you felt that you couldn't get into the type of job
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5581
that was required by the Communist Party, if you did state those
facts?
Mr. Falk. Mr. Velde, there are thousands of people who come to
Flint every day. General Motors advertises throughout the country
for workers, and I think it was very logical for me to come here and
get a job in 1949. As I recall it, there was a great shortage of jobs in
almost every part of the country. I know there was in New York
City at that time, and Flint was one of the few places where people
were working. I came here to get a job, to work.
Mr. Velde. Let me ask you very simply
Mr. Tavenner. He hasn't answered your question.
Mr. Clardy. He hasn't answered your question.
Mr. Velde. I am inclined to think that the question was a little bit
complicated.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Velde. Were you sent to Flint, Mich., as an emissary of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Falk. That question is exactly the kind of question which tries
to open up the whole field of people's political beliefs, the kind of
question that is in effect trying to undermine the Bill of Rights and
the Constitution, because it is not the kind of question that America
wants to see asked, America, land of freedom. I am not going to
answer such a question.
(At this pohit Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it a fact that you
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. Excuse me, I want to know if it is necessary for me to
claim legal grounds after such a question.
Mr. Velde. I didn't hear the last statement.
Mr. Falk. I wondered if it was necessary for me to claim constitu-
tional grounds in answering such a question.
Mr. Velde. That depends upon you, I mean, if you care to.
Mr. Clardy. Wliat was the ground you care to invoke ?
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I would like to claim all of the grounds that I previously
stated in answer to the first question that I felt I should decline.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you advised and counseled of the work that
you were to do in the Communist Party in Flint before you left the
State of New York?
Mr. Falk. That is the same kind of question, the same kind of
attempt to get at the politics here, of my particular politics and per-
haps other people's politics, and I am going to decline again on the
same grounds.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, you say politics. Is that because you regard
the Communist Party as a true political party ?
Mr. Falk. Mr. Clardy, my political opinions about the Communist
Party or any other party are not something which I am going to go
into here. If I did, I would waive my right to decline to answer the
probing questions of this committee and therefore I am not going to
answer that question, either.
Mr. Clardy. "Why I ask is that in the prior testimony you reiterated,
as we have had said thousands of times before us, that you were not
going to state anything about your political beliefs and so on. This
5582 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
committee, the other investigating committees, and your Government
as a whole, does not regard the Communist Party as a political party.
We regard it as nothing less than a criminal conspiracy of a group of
people taking orders from a foreign government dedicated to the
pro}:)Osition of destroying this Nation by force and violence, and if you
have in mind that we are going to take any other attitude, you are mis-
taken, but if you use the word "political" from here on out, I want to
be sure that you are thinking of the Communist Party and denominat-
ing it as a political party, so I come back to my question. Is that your
attitude toward the Communist Party? That is regardless of what
you are, whether you are one or not. I am just asking you for your
belief.
Mr. Falk. Your statements on this question are somewhat confus-
ing to me because at one time you come out and say that the Com-
munist Party is a legal political party. It hasn't been outlawed yet or
something to that effect.
Mr. Clardy. No, I have never said that. No one on this committee
has said that.
Mr. Falk. I think I heard you say something about not having out-
lawed the Communist Party or something.
Mr. Clardy. No, we haven't made it a criminal offense to belong
to the party, much as I think it should be, and eventually will be. But
that is different. We are talking about whether you think that is a
true political party. Is that the basis of all your answers in which you
talk about our invading your right to think politically ? You can de-
cline to answer that if you wish.
Mr. Falk. Mr. Clardy, I think you know, and I know, that the
question of these hearings isn't limited to any question of communism.
I think Bishop Sheil pointed this out in Chicago very clearly when he
said:
Now while we are free is the time to cry out against the phony anticommunism
that mocks our way of life, flouts our traditions and democratic procedures and
our sense of fair play, feeds on the meat of suspicion and grows great on dis-
sension among Americans which it cynically keeps alive by a mad pursuit of
headlines.
Mr. Clardy. Well, now come back to my question. Of course that
had nothing to do with it. Answer it, if you can remember it.
Mr. Falk. I have already stated I am not going to answer any ques-
tions that have to do with
Mr, Clardy. Very well. Pass on, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Falk. Such matters.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, let me say first of all, I think you have
been very generous with the witness in allowing him to refer to matters
that are entirely immaterial to this hearing. As you well know, we
have a rule on the committee that if a person answers the questions
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman. )
Mr. Velde. That are propounded to him by counsel, if the witness
answers those questions, then he is permitted to make statements, but
of course you have refused to answer the questions propounded to you
by counsel, and again I say I think you are very generous, Mr. Chair-
man.
Mr. Clardy. I think perhaps we have been overly generous, but
there was a purpose in doing so, because I do not want anyone, so long
as I am presiding in my home State to ever be able to honestly tell the
people of this State that I, acting as chairman, deprived them of a full,
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5583
free, and fair opportunity to state their position or to clef end them-
selves. You have been granted, just as the chairman says, mhnitely
more lattitude than we have been granting in our hearnig at other
pLaces in the United States. You are among the favored lew ni that
regard. Now, will you proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. During the course of the hearing today, Mrs.
Churchill described a meeting at which she stated you were present
and that Carl Winter was also present. It was one of these self-criti-
cism meetings which she said were frequently held by the Communist
Party, at which time you made the statement, you volunteered the
statement, that your difficulty here had been reducing yourself to the
level of the ordinary employee. Did you make that statement ?
( At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I believe the person to whom you are referriui^ is the—
and I use the word advisedly— stoolpigeon who testified earlier today.
I don't credit the statements of any stoolpigeon. I don't feel I have
to answer to those statements, and I think that is a shame on this
city, this county, and this country, that such people are idlowed to
appear before Governmental bodies.
Mr. Clardy. Now, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it true? .
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, just a moment. I am directing the wit-
ness to answer the question, and I caution you now, sir, that we are an
arm of your Government. We are, so far as this hearing is concerned,
the Congress of the United States. I have given you, as the chair-
man of the full committee suggested, infinite latitude, but there is an
end to patience, and I shall not permit you henceforth to indulge m
that kind of a typical Communist tirade. I enjoin you to refrain from
using that kind of language under pain of possible citation for con-
tempt because that, whether you know it or not, is the worst kind of
contempt that can be exhibited before a committee of your Congress.
Now, we will let this one incident pass, but I am suggesting for your
own good that henceforth— and this applies to all the other witnesses
who may succeed you on the stand— keep within the bounds of pro-
priety and decency. Do not do what you did. Do not repeat that
again. So that you will know if you do, the record will show that you
have been fairly and honestly given ample warning of the possible
results of your conduct.
Now, proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Falk, is it not true that the Communist Party
thought well enough of Mrs. Churchill to elevate her to a very high
position within that organization, even to the point of a member of
the section committee of the Communist Party for Saginaw Valley,
an organization of which you were a member. Now, your sudden
burst here in criticizing her is because you have been named by her
as a member of the Communist Party, isn't it?
Mr. Falk. I have stated my opinion of the woman named. The
word that I used is not a new word. It is a word which has been used
by Americans for many, many years. It comes out of the whole fi^ht
that American workers have put up for their unions, where companies
have used stoolpigeons many times to try to keep these unions from
coming into existence. I am not going to answer any questions about
such a person. I have nothing but contempt for stoolpigeons — I
may
5584 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. Witness, will you desist. Now I told a few moments
ago the possible results of that kind of conduct. You have trans-
gi'essed
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Clardy, What the committee's rules permit. I warn you now,
that if you persist in this course the committee will take whatever
drastic action lies within its power to take. Now, refrain from that
from here on out.
Mr. Falk. I am declining these questions on my constitutional
grounds, as I have stated before. I don't think that if I express my
contempt for people that that is grounds for threatening me, and I
am sure Mr. Clardy knows as well as I do.
Mr. Clardy. I am not threatening you. I am merely telling you
under the rules of the Congress of the United States and of this com-
mittee, you liave far exceeded the bounds of decency, and you will be
called to account for it if you persist in it.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it a fact that you were a colonizer of the Com-
munist Party sent to the area of Flint or that you volunteered to come
to the area of Flint for the purpose of carrying out the objectives of
the Communist Party?
Mr. Falk. I have heard of colonizers, white colonizers in Africa
who go in to take over the native populations, make them work for
slave wages.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the answer is not in response to my
question at all.
Mr. Falk. I will
Mr. Clardy. Witness, suspend for a moment.
You know without the Chair telling you that you are being imperti-
nent deliberately. That, in itself, is contempt. Now. I suggest that
you answer the question and refrain from that kind of remark. Now
will you direct yourself to the question.
Mr. Falk. I am going to decline to answer such a question on all
the grounds that I have stated before for such a question, and I also
feel that this committee shouldn't prevent me from expressing my
opinion on matters that are raised here. I may be very — you know,
feel very contemptuous of the chairman of this committee, and if I say
so, I don't think that I am in contempt. That is my opinion ; it is
my right as an American citizen to have that opinion, and I don't
see where it could possibly be called contempt.
Mr. Clardy. You may hold any opinion of the chairman that you
wish, and it is of no concern to me, but the rules of the Congress, rules
of this committee, call for an exhibition of proper respect toward your
Government. You transgress those rules at your own risk. I have
given you fair warning. I shall give you no more.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Ta\^nner. You engaged, did you not, in a plan of deceit in
obtaining employment here so that you could carry out the functions
of the Communist Party effectively ?
Mr. Falk. That is clearly the same type of question, and I decline
for the same reasons.
Mr. Ta\-enner. Within 2 or 3 days after your arrival in Flint did
you not attend a meeting of the youth section of the Communist Party
at a farm near Columbiaville, Mich., which meeting was being con-
ducted by Jack Gore and Jack Wliite ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5585
Mr. Falk. This begins to sound like you are telling me what I am
supposed to have done instead of asking me, but it is the
Mr. Tavenner. Is it true ?
Mr. Falk. Same type of question and the exact same answer, I am
going to decline as previously.
Mr. Tavenner. As a result of that meeting you were assigned to
work in the Labor Youth League of the Communist Party in this
area, were you not ?
Mr. Falk. I am going to decline all such questions. I think I have
made that clear. If this committee is really interested in asking me
questions, I think that they could proceed in a way that would allow
me to answer. If they are interested in giving their view and their
opinion, then I will simply decline to answer this question and all
similar questions on the grounds that I have already stated.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, I think I have already explained to you
the obligation imposed upon us by the House of Representatives,
which is to investigate un-American activities and un-American prop-
aganda. I assure you, and I am sure that the Chair will agree, that
that is our purpose in asking you these questions. Now, you could, if
you would — I am sure that you have these facts — be of great service
to your Congress, to the American people, if you would tell us some
of the facts in connection with your employment here in Flint, Mich.,
in connection with the Communist Party, its directives and other
matters involved in this field of activity. You say we are expressing
our opinions. We ask you to express your opinion and give us facts.
Mr. Clardt. Is there a question still pending or has he declined to
answer ?
Mr. Tavenner. He declined to answer.
Mr. Clardy. Ask your next question.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you connected in an official capacity at any
time with the Labor Youth League ?
Mr. Falk. I am going to decline that question on the same grounds
tliat I stated and on this additional ground at this time. I was brought
up like many other young people in this country and went to school
as I explained to this committee, and I was taught something about
American democracy. Frankly, I don't like the idea of political
peeping Toms. I am not going to become one. I don't think that this
committee is really acting in all fairness and in the interests of the
American people. In fact, there is a strong indication here that there
may be certain political considerations on the part of individual mem-
bers to publicize their own campaigns. I am not interested in help-
ing these individuals out, and frankly I feel that it is an invasion of
everything that is decent in this country to ask me to start to go into
this political peeping Tom business here, so I am going to decline.
Mr. Clardy. The question was, Are you a member of the LYL,
with which you are thoroughly familiar ? The uncalled for remarks
you make have only served to aggravate the conduct that you have
engaged in up to now. The Chair will tolerate very little more. Our
patience is wearing very thin with you, sir, but I now command you,
direct you, to either answer or decline to answer the question pending.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. I will decline to answer that question, and I claim the
same grounds as I stated at the beginning.
5586 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Falk. I will decline to answer the $64 question on the same
grounds as previously stated.
Mr. Clardy. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Falk. I will decline to answer that question for the same
reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Any questions, Mr. Velde?
Mr. Velde. I have no further questions except to make this remark :
The conduct of the witness and his refusal to answer the question per-
taining to subversive activities — in which I feel certain he has been
engaged — can only lead to the conclusion by me that he has been and
possibly presently is engaged in subversive activities in an attempt
to destroy this Government of the United States, which I am sure the
great majority of the American people hold dear to their hearts.
Mr. Clardy. I have one final question : Are you now or have you
ever been a member of any organization whose avowed purpose is the
overthrow of this Government through the use of force and violence
and ponder well before you make any answer.
Mr. Falk. I will ask my attorney.
Mr. Clardy. You may do so.
(At this point Mr. Falk conferred with Mr. Bragman.)
Mr. Falk. On advice I find that that question is materially the same
as all of the others that I declined on, and for the same reasons I will
decline.
Mr. Clardy. Witness dismissed. The witnesses who were subpenaed
for today and tomorrow will report here at the hearing room at 9 : 30
a. m. tomorrow morning. The committee will now recess until tomor-
row morning.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 40 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 9 : 30
a. m. Thursday, May 13, 1954.)
INDEX TO PART 8
Individuals
Page
Abramik, Jerome H 5519, 5520
Albertson, William 5540
Allan, William 5551
Altimer, Arthur 5538
Anderson, Hessel 5538
Anderson, Mrs. Hessel 5538
Appell, Donald T 5493
Aptheker, Herbert 5508
.Asselin, Jean 5555
Baldwin, Bereniece 5526
Baumkel, Marilyn (Molly) (Mrs. Sherwood Baumkel) 5494,5495,5545
Baumkel, Sherwood (Jerry) 5494,5495,5545
Baxter, Bolza__ 5489, 5491, 5495, 5497, 5498, 5500, 5506, 5508-5510, 5521-5523, 5556
Baxter, Gene 5510
Baxter, Louis 5489, 5495, 5500, 5505, 5508-5510, 5555
Baxter, Nadine 5508, 5510
Beiswenger, Hugo 5553
Berry, Abner 5553
Birdsell, Henry (Hank) 5496,5558
Blassingame, Barry 5505, 5509, 5521, 5522, 5536
Blassingame, Edna 5520, 5536
Borod, Geneva {see also Olmsted, Geneva) 5496, 5505, 5553, 5558
Borod, Murray Olmsted 5505, 5521, 5540, 5541, 5548, 5549
Bragman, Melvin 5564, 5565
Brandi, Zina (Ziua Brandt Haskell) 5509
Brant, Joseph 5522, 5524, 5536, 5537, 5561
Brant, Sylvia 5536
Brooks, Curtis 5538, 5555
Churchill, Beatrice (Mrs. Robert Churchill) 5514,5515-5564 (testimony)
Clifton, Herman 5538
Cole, E. F 5538
Dantzler, F. D 5538
Dantzler, Julius 5509
Dantzler, Lloyd 5503, 5504, 5536
Dantzler, Mary 5509
DeCaux, Len 5495
Devitt, Joe 5520
Duclos 5559
Endicott, Paul 5555
Engel, Marvin 5495, 5496, 5500, 5552
Falk, Howard 5493-5495,
5500, 5540, 5541, 5545, 5550, 5564, 5565-5586 (testimony)
Falk, Mrs. M 5574
Falk, Nina Phillips (Mrs. Howard Falk) 5494,5495,5541,5550
Flynn, Elizabeth Gurley 5531
Foster, Howard 5505, 5521, 5522, 5538, 5555, 5556
Foster, Lester, Sr 5555
Foster, Mary 5508, 5555
Foster, Shirley 5503, 5505, 5509, 5510, 5532, 5533, 5553, 5555, 5556
Foster, William Z 5531
Fox, Dave 5556
Fox, George 5496, 5542
Fox, Richard 5509
Fox, Shirley 5508
ii INDEX
Fas*
Garvin, June (see also Thomas, June) 5520
Glaberman, Martin 5509
Gold, Ben 5563, 5564
Goodman, Mr 5516
Gordon, Hy 1 5556
Gore, Jack 5490, 5491, 5495, 5496, 5498, 5500, 5502, 5506, 5584
Hampton, Louis 5538
Haskell, Ziua Brandi 5509
Haywood, Walter 5538
Holland, Erwln 5496
Hoover, J. Edgar 5529
Hunt, Anderson 5538
Ingram, Rosalie 5507
Israel, Zigmund 5495, 5496
Jackson, James 5537
Joseph, Paul, Jr 5496
Karpell, Ted 5495, 5496, 5541, 5542
Kelly, Pearl Potter {see also Potter, Pearl; Mrs. Thomas Kelly) 5509,5521
Kelly, Thomas 5509, 5521, 5538, 5555
Kenny, Casper 5509, 5529, 5555
Lawson, John Howard 5508
Leitson, Hanny 5505
Leitsou, Morton 5503, 5505, 5535
Lukes, Bob 5510
Maddock, Doc 5515-5517
Mayen, Betty (see also Thomas, Betty) 5509
Mayle, Clive 5509
McAllister, Verna 5523
Mitchell, Charles 5536, 5554
Mortimer, Wyndham 5554, 5555
Moscou, Dorothy 5505
Moscou, Jack 5495, 5496, 5542
U'Dowd, Bob 5524, 5556
O'Dowd, Gladys (Mrs. Bob O'Dowd) 5524
Olmsted, Geneva (see also Bored, Geneva) 5496, 5553
Packer, Robert 5525
Parrish, Delia 5554
I'arrish, Dorothy 5519, 5554
Parrish, Hilliard 5519, 5554
Parrish, Julia 5554
Parrish, Uhlard 5537
Parrish, Mrs. Uhlard 5537
Peace, James S 5493, 5579
Perry, Pettis 5531
I'omaski, John W 5554
Potter, Pearl (see also Kelly, Pearl) 5520,5521
Raymond, Phillip 5553
Reuther. Walter 5526
Sapolinski 5543
Seiger, Gerald 5509
Shell, Bishop 5582
Shinn, Chuck 5508, 5509, 5553
Simon, Bud 5554
Simon, Paul 5495, 5496, 5553, 5558
Slocum, Walter 5554
Smyers, James 5537, 5538
Solbodzian, Frank 5525
Strutts, Milton 5554
Thomas, Betty (see also Mayen, Betty) 5508,5509
Thomas, John 5538
Thomas, June (see also Garvin, June) 5520
Trachtenberg, Joyzelle (Mrs. Max Trachtenberg) 5495,5508
Trachtenberg, Martin (Marty) 5494,5496,5510,5541
Trachtenberg, Max 5495, 5508, 5541
Trachtenberg, Phyllis (Mrs. Martin Trachtenberg) 5494,
5496, 5508, 5509, 5541, 5545, 5550
Travis, Bob 5554, 5555
INDEX iii
Page
Travis, Helen 5555
Trotsky, Leon 5556
Uraclnicek, Michael 5538
Van der Does, Lola (Mrs. William Van der Does) 5494,5508
Van der Does, William 5494, 5495. 5542
Wallace, Henry A 5496, 5502, 5503
Wells, Harold 5518, 5519, 5556
Wells, Josephine (Mrs. Harold Wells) 5519,5558
White, Elsie 5508
White, Jack (radio newscaster) 5522
White, John (Jack) 5496,
5497, 5504, 5505, 5509, 5520-5522, 5524, 5534, 5535, 5556, 5558, 5584
Widmark, Bruce 5508, 5524
Widmark, Eleanor 5523, 5556
Widmark, James 5523, 5524, 5536, 5556
Widmark, Pauline 5508
Wilkerson. Doxey 5507
Winter, Carl - 5540, 5583
Winter, Helen 5530
Witness X 5487,5511 (testimony)
Turasek, Frank 5538
Zarichny, James (Jimmy) 5489,5495,5496,5543
Organizations
AC Spark Plug. ( See General Motors Corp., AC Spark Plug Division. )
American Youth for Democrary 5555
City College of New York 5493, 5495, 5566, 5567, 5575, 5.578, 5579
Civil Rights Congress 5505, 5.530
Columbia University 5556
Communist Party, Michigan 5488
5495-5497, 5503, 5517, 5529, 5.535, 5540, 5556, 5580
AC-Fisher Club (Flint) 5516-5519, 5521, 5525, 55,34
Buick Club (Flint)— 5517, 5522, 5524, 5534, 5536, 5567, 5571, 5572, 5578, 5579
Chevrolet Club (Flint) 5496, 5517, 5521, 5522, 5534, 5536, 55.38
Community Club (Flint) 5508, 5510
Dearborn avito section 5526
Fisher Body Club 5517
General Motors School (Flint) 5.556
Professional Club (Flint) 5.5.35
Saginaw Valley section 5517, 5521, 5523, 5560, 5583
Youth Club (Flint) 5489, 5490
Communist Party, New York City 5.556
Congress of Industrial Organizations 5515, 5526, 5542, 5549, 5554, 5555
Federal Bureau of Investigation 5487, 5488, 5515, 5516, 5532, 5534, 5543, 5562
Fisher Body Corp 5492, 5516, 5518, 5519, 5542, 5554
Flint Art Institute 5495
General Motors Corp 5526, 5548, 5581
AC Spark Plug Division 5492, 5515-5517, 5521, 5533, 5549, 5561
Buick Division 5492, 5493, 5524, 5541, 5548, 5554, 5565, 5566
Chevrolet Division 5492, 5522, 5538, 5542, 5548, 5549, 5561
Hunter College 5494
Independent Progressive Party 5488, 5502-5506, 5530-5532, 5551-5553, 5562
Independent Progressive Party, Flint 5531
International Fur and Leather Workers Union 5563
Jefferson School of Social Science, New York City 5506
Ku Klux Klan 5499
Labor Youth League 5488-5491, 5493, 5495-5502, 5505, 5506, 5508, 5523
Labor Youth League, Flint 5497, 5506, 5529, 5530, 5585
Master Craft Model & Molding Co., Long Island City 5576, 5577
Michigan Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Born 5505
Michigan State College 5544
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 5505, 5552, 5553
National Negro Labor Council 5505
iv INDEX
Page
Stockholm peace petition 5557
Stockholm peace pledge 5557
United Auto Workers, CIO 5526
Local 651 5515
Local 659 5542, 5549
United Nations 5500, 5501
University of Michigan 5503
Workers' Alliance 5516, 5554, 5562
Works Progress Administration 5516
Young Progressives 5490, 5491, 5494, 5496, 5502, 5503, 5505, 5506, 5530
PtJBLICATIONS
CIO News 5405
Daily Worker 5554
Lansing State Journal 5531, 5532
Michigan Herald 5526, 5555
Michigan Worker 5527. 5551, 5554
Searchlight 5548, 5549, 5550, 5561
O
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— Part 9
(FLINT)
P^"
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
MAY 13, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
INCLUDING INDEX
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
48861 WASHINGTON : 1954
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
SEP 2 8 1354
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois, Chairman
BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New Yorli FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania
DONALD L. JACKSON, California MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri
KIT CLARDY, Michigan CLYDE DOYLE, California
GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio JAMES B. FRAZIER, JB., Tennessee
ROBERT L. KUNZIG, CoUHSel
Feank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel
Thomas W. Bealk, Sr., Chief Clerk
Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research
Courtney E. Owens, Acting Chief Investigator
CONTENTS
Pag«
May 13, 1954, testimony of —
Marveii M. Engel _ 5588
George Wliitman Fox 5606
Geneva Bored 5618
Howard Foster 5628
Morton Leitson 5636
Max Dean 5652
Martin Trachtenberg 5668
Index i
m
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted hy the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of ADicrica in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
RXILE XI
POWEKS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) Tlie Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to mal^e from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, anrl objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda tliat is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and at-
taclis the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution,
and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any
necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendatiuns as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 83D CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1953
• •*•♦•♦
RuleX
standing committees
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress,
the following standing committees :
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWEKS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities
(a) Un-American Activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United.
States, (2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-Ameri-
can propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries, or of a domestic origin
and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Con-
stitution, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Con-
gress in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to
the Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such
investigation together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.
VI
1
INYESTIGATION OF COMMUNISTrACTIYITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— Part 9
(Flint)
THURSDAY, MAY 13, 1954
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on the Committee
ON Un-American Activities,
Flint, Mich.
PUBLIC HEARING
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to recess, at 9 : 32 a. m., in the supervisors room, courthouse,
Hon. Kit Clardy (acting chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman of the full committee), Kit Clardy (acting chairman), and
Clyde Doyle.
Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; Donald T.
Appell and W. Jackson Jones, investigators; and Mrs. Juliette P.
Joray, acting clerk.
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session.
Now, this morning the subcommittee is once more at full strength.
I want to welcome my colleague from California, the Honorable Clyde
Doyle, who, at some considerable sacrifice to himself, because of the
work that he has piled up — he has been on west coast hearings for the
committee and gets back in Washington just about in time to bounce
back here for today, so we welcome you to Michigan, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. I am glad to be here.
Mr. Clardy. Now, something has come to the attention of the sub-
committee during the night, something that we rather strongly
suspected before the afternoon was over yesterday, and that is, that
apparently there are some people who are deluding themselves into
believing that through a filibuster technique they can avoid appearing
on the stand.
I think you might just as well know at the outset that, (1) we don't
tolerate filibustering today, and (2) whether we finish with all of the
witnesses under subpena today and tomorrow or not, the witnesses
under subpena will eventually be heard, no matter how many times
we have to come back to Michigan, or if we have to take them to some
other place, so I trust that the witnesses who may have had instruc-
tions from the Communist Party headquarters to filibuster against the
committee will have that in mind when they take the stand.
Now Mr. Tavenner, are you ready to call your first witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. Mr. Marvin Engel, please.
5587
5588 COMMXTNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. Hold up your right hand. You do solemnly swear the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Engel. I do.
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated. Counsel, will you please iden-
tify yourself for the record ?
Mr. Weston. Aaron Weston.
TESTIMONY OF MARVIN M. ENGEL, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, AARON WESTON
Mr. Engel. Mr. Chairman, I would like to request that no photo-
graphs be taken of me during my testimony.
Mr. Clardy. We have a rule that up until the time you are sworn
we give the news photographers an opportunity to take pictures.
Mr. Engel. I understand.
Mr. Clardy. If you request it, from there on out, unless some inci-
dent arises which is considered newsworthy, your wishes will be
respected.
JNfr. Engel. I would also at this time like to present a motion to
this committee for the quashing of my subpena. I would like to
have an opportunity
Mr. Clardy. Pardon me. Has it been reduced to writing?
Mr. Engel. I only have notes, sir, and I also have it in my mind
and in my heart, I would add. I would like to present my legal
grounds why I think my subpena should be quashed.
Mr, Clardy. May I suggest, sir, that under the rules of the com-
mittee such a motion should have been reduced to writing and pre-
sented to us in advance of the time of hearing so that it might be
adequately considered. I don't believe at this time a statement will be
permitted, but you may, and undoubtedly will, as other witnesses have,
raise objections that you think ])ro]3er as the questions are submitted,
unless the statements you have will not take more than about a min-
ute to read or to speak into the record.
Mr. Engel. Well, now, sir, I don't want to have my legal grounds
limited to 1 minute.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. We will proceed with the questioning.
Go ahead, Mr, Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Engel. My name is Marvin M. Engel.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Engel?
Mr, Engel, I was born in the Bronx, N, Y,, July 4, 1927,
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Engel. I now^ reside in the city of Flint, Mich.
Mr, Tavenner. How long have you lived in the city of Flint?
Mr. Engel. I have lived in Flint approximately 5 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
educational training has been ?
Mr. Engel. Yes, sir, I would be glad to. First, however I would
like to ask a question. If I state my educational training, does this
in any way waive my legal rights concerning any activities tliat I
participated in, any beliefs that I held during the time that I was
in formal education?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5589
Mr. Clardy. Witness, you have sitting immediately at your right
an attorney which tlie committee permits you to liave when you are
testifying. You may consult with him as to your legal rights.
]Mr. Engel. Yes, but it is my feeling that this committee is at
variance with the law on many legal rights. However, I will con-
sult him.
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. EnCxEL. ]\Iy attorney informs me that I do not waive those
rights ; therefore, I will tell you my educational background.
All of my formal education has been in the free public schools of
this country which w^ere won as free public schools by the action and
the demands of the labor movement going all the way back in Ameri-
can history. The labor movement pioneered in winning free educa-
tion
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute, Mr. Chairman. Just a minute, sir. You
Avere asked a question, and you are disgressing from answering it,
and I move, Mr. Chairman, that this witness be instructed to confine
his answers to the question he was asked.
Mr. Clardy. Your ]3oint is well taken, Mr. Doyle. This is very
obviously, Mr. Witness, the beginning of an attempt to filibuster about
which I warned you.
Mr. Engel. Filibuster is a congressional tactic.
Mr. Clari:)!'. Remain silent, sir, while the Chair or any member is
addressing j^ou. We will not permit the kind of impertinence that
was exhibited toward the committee and the Congress yesterday. I
w^ant to make that very strong. Now remain silent while we are telling
you. We will not permit any more Communist tirades of any kind
today. We have a tremendous number of witnesses. As I said, they
are all going to be heard if we have to come back a dozen times, but
today we shall demand short, concise, direct answers, no digressions
in the form of Communist harangues.
Now answer the question. You are so directed.
Mr. Engel. I attended 4 years of free high school in the city of
New Yoi'k. I then
Mr. Clardy. What date was that.
Mr. Engel. I am sorry. I graduated from high school in January
of 1945. At that time I entered the free college. City College of New
York. I attended the City College of New York from January 1945
until June 1945, at which time I took a leave of absence to enlist in the
United States Navy — Naval Reserve, pardon me. I served in the
United States Naval Reserve on active duty from June 29, 1945, to
October 5, 1946, at which time I was given an honorable, or in com-
mon language, a battleship discharge. I then returned to school — I
should say that I was on terminal leave for several weeks prior to
the date of my discharge so that I was able to start back in school prior
to that date. In other words, I started, I believe, about the first of
October, which is few days before the date of my discharge. I went
back to school in the fall of 1946 and Avas in attendance at school
continuously through all three sessions, smnmer, winter, and spring,
until June of 1949, at which time I received my bachelor's degree in
social science.
Mr. Tavenner. At what school was that?
Mr. Engel. That was CCNY, City College of New York, or the
College of the City of New York.
5590 COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. "Will you tell the committee please, what your em-
ployment record has been since you returned from the Armed Forces
of the United States ?
Mr. Engel. I do not recollect any employment, either part time or
full time during any of the time that I was attending school.
Mr. Tavenner. That would be from January 1945 until June 1949,
excluding the period you were in the service ?
Mr. Engel. Yes, I believe so. I am not sure, but I believe that is
correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat became your employment upon the comple-
tion of your course at City College ?
Mr. Engel. My — I have only had one job, and that is the job that
I presently hold.
Mr. Tavenner. And what is that, please ?
Mr. Engel. That is with the Chevrolet manufacturing unit, Flint,
Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you begin your employment with the
Chevrolet plant?
Mr. Engel. I began my employment some time in July of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive a degree from City College ?
Mr. Engel. I have already stated I did.
Mr. Tavenner. What was it ?
Mr. Engel. It was a degree in social science, bachelor's.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you make your application for a position
with Chevrolet Motor Co. ?
Mr. Engel. I am afraid that I can't recall the exact date. It was
some time in July of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you make that application from New York?
Mr. Engel. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you come from New York to Flint before as-
certaining whether or not you would receive the job at Chevrolet?
Mr. Engel. I got no promise of employment at Chevrolet, if that
is the question you are asking.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you advise the management of Chevrolet that
you had had 4 years of scholastic work at City College and had re-
ceived the degree of bachelor of arts in social science ?
Mr. Engel. Let me correct you. That was not a bachelor of arts
degree. That was a bachelor — I believe it was called a bachelor of
science in social science.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, that is correct, a B. S. degree ?
Mr. Engel. I am not certain, but I don't believe I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, in order to refresh your recollection, I hand
you a photostatic copy of an application for employment at Chevrolet
bearing date of July 12, 1949.
Mr. Engel. Well, now, apparently you have much closer access to
General Motors' files than I do, and I have been working for them for
5 years.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, no question was pending. Now, any more
of that sort of interjection of obviously inflammatory language de-
signed for a purpose of your own, any more of that, and we will be
compelled to do something about it.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Appell, will you point out on the form that
part which relates to academic training? Does that refresh your
recollection?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5591
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Engel. I have no way of knowing whether what yon have set
before me and tell me is a copy of my application is actually a true
copy of my application for work.
Mr. Clardy. It is a photostat, is it not ?
Mr. Engel. From what I have read in the papers
Mr. Clardy. You can tell that.
Mr. Engel. About photographs and photostats recently, I still-
Mr. Clardy. Witness, you are again violating the rules that the
committee has made very plain. You may think that that kind of
conduct is very smart. Well, let me assure you that it will only lead
you into trouble and difficulty if you continue with it. Now look at
it and tell me, is it not a photostat ?
Mr. Engel. I have no idea whether it is a photostat or not.
Mr. Clardy. Despite the fact that you have a high college degree,
you do not recognize a photostat when you see it ?
Mr. Engel. I am also an amateur photographer, sir, but by looking
at it I do not know whether it is a photostat, and I certainly do not
know whether it is a photostat of my application.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, will you ask him the question so there
will be no doubt.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. Will you examine the signature to the
document and state whether or not it is your signature ?
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Clardy. I think you have had about enough time, witness, and
from what I can see here, you are advising counsel instead of the coun-
sel advising you. Get on with the answer.
Mr. Engel. You have very good ears, sir. I am asking my counsel
for advice.
Mr. Clardy. I can observe. Will you answer the question ?
Mr. Engel. I am still waiting for my counsel to advise me.
Mr. Clardy. I am directing you to answer the question. Is that
your signature or not?
Mr. Engel. Do I have a riirht to consult with counsel ?
Mr. Clardy. You have a right to
Mr. Engel. Do I have a right to consult with counsel ?
Mr. Clardy. You have consulted much too long already. It is part
of the deliberate plan of the Communist Party to try to disrupt the
proceedings, by this method, and we will not tolerate it. Now pro-
ceed to answer. Is that your signature or is it not ?
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer that question, and I do so for the
following legal reasons : My first reason is based on the first amend-
ment, wherein it says that
Mr. Clardy. You don't have to quote it. We know it. You stand
on the first amendment.
Mr. Engel. I am trying to explain how I think that the first amend-
ment applies.
Mr. Clardy. We don't care to listen to any more on the first amend-
ment. Now pass on to the next one.
Mr. Engel. Do you think that you know what I am going to say?
Mr. Clardy. Witness, we are more with this than you are. Now
we will not tolerate your explaining the law to us. You have stated
5592 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
that the first amendment is your first objection. Very well. Now pass
on. What is the next one ?
Mr. Engel. It is my feeling that the enabling act under which
this committee operates, known as Public Law 601, I believe, permits
this committee to investigate propaganda, and I might say that Mr.
Velde was in error yesterday when he said it enabled them to inves-
tigate activities and propaganda.
Mr. Clardy. WitJiess, you are departing from an answer, and I
direct you to confine yourself to stating the grounds upon which you
are refusing to answer the last question, and I direct that it be a short,
simple statement, no argument.
Mr. Engel. I wish to state my legal grounds fully. I think I have
that right.
Mr. Clardy. I am giving you that opportunity, but no chance for
a Communist harangue today. Now tell me what the next objec-
tion is.
Mr. Engel. If you will permit me to state them, I will do so.
Mr. Clardy. If you will state them succinctly, we will do so, but
not permit you to filibuster.
Mr. Engel. I will state them in the way I think proper to cover my
constitutional rights, and Mr. Clardy, you will not tell me how to
state them.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, do you have any other constitutional
Mr. Engel. I do.
Mr. Clardy. State them quickly.
Mr. Engel. It is my feeling further that this committee, in hauling
me up here, is engaged in unreasonable search and seizure of my per-
son, of my thoughts, of my beliefs.
Mr. Clardy. Which section of the Constitution are you relying on
on that ?
Mr. Engel. I am relying, as you very well know, or at least you say
you know, on the fourth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. All right. Proceed.
Mr. Engel. And I feel that I am being compromised here by having
to face a public inquisition, and I consider that to be unreasonable
search and seizure of my person.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Do you have any more ?
Mr. Engel. My next legal ground is that no person shall have to
answer for an infamous crime except on the presentment of a grand
jury, and a grand jury is secret so that the innocent may be protected
before they are smeared all over the newspapers and public ; also, that
I do not have to appear as a witness against myself before this com-
mittee or before anybody, and I might say that I have already been
charged by Mr. Clardy in the press before I ever came up here because
he said that every witness that a])peared here had already been deter-
mined would be arrogant, and I charge that to have been an as-
sumption.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Engel. And since Mr. Clardy seems to think that he knows
everything I am going to say I might say that there is actually no
need to haul me up here because you might as well just say them and
leave me out because you have already assumed everything that I am
going to say, but I haven't been brainwashed yet. My answers are not
yours.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5593
Mr. Clardt. Proceed. Do you have any others? I assume that
you are intending to raise an objection under the fifth amendment, so
pass on.
Mr. Tavenner. Why was it
Mr. Engel. I further
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me.
Mr. Engel. Don't rush me, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Clardy. Five more minutes, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr, Engel. I miglit have a few more, too. I furtlier decline to
answer that question because of the due process section which guar-
antees me life, liberty, and property, and I might take in a piece that
was written during my birthday, July 4, pursuit of happiness.
Mr. Clardy. Never mind ; we are not interested in your birthday.
Proceed.
Mr. Engel. You asked me about it.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Engel. I am, of course, citing here the fifth amendment, and
I intend to 'use this amendment in its entirety as many times as I
feel that this connnittee is transgressing my rights, whether that be
5 times, 10 times, or 500 times, regardless of what the box score says
tomorrow. The guilt is with the committee for transgressing my
rights and not from my
Mr. Clardy. Witness, you have departed again. Come back to
the •
Mr. Engkl. ^fy further legal ground is thr.t I am entitled, when I
am charged with a crime, to a jury trial, that I am entitled to know
the specific charges against me, and that I do not have to be subjected
to what has been put here earlier as something of a mass indictment
of an entire local union in this city. I have the right to confront
and cross-examine any accusers of mine. I have the right of com-
pulsory process for bringing witnesses in my favor, and also the right
for full and complete representation by my counsel without any
threats and intimidation.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, I must-
Mr. Engel. My further legal rights
Mr. Clardy. Hold up a moment. I nnist enjoin you. We have
permitted you to enlarge solely for the purpose of getting on the
record the attitude that you are exhibiting toward your Congress.
Now from here on out state the amendment and desist from arguing;
otherwise the Chair will be compelled to treat your attitude as that of
contempt and move on to the next question and leave you to suffer
whatever consequences may follow. It is obvious to the Chair that
you are determined to exhibit all the contempt your system will
permit.
Now, we are not going to allow you to turn this into a Communist
sideshow. Now state the remaining constitutional objections that you
have, numbering the amendments.
If you do not care to do that, then I shall order you to desist and
ask Mr. Tavenner to proceed on to the next question.
Mr. Engel. Do I understand you
Mr. Clardy. You understand exactly, I am sure. Now answer the
question.
Mr. Engel. Only numbers?
5594 coMJvruNiST activities in the state of Michigan
Mr. Clardy. That is right.
Mr. Engel. Well, let me consult counsel.
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Engel. The Bill of Rights further guarantees me thnt I not be
subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, which is
Mr. Clardy. What amendment are you relying on there?
Mr. Engel. Which is the eighth amendment.
Mr. Clardy, Very well.
Mr. Engel. Further, the Bill of Rights guarantees that there are
certain rights reserved to me and reserved to the States that Congress
cannot take away, which it is trying to do, and I am citing the 9th and
10th amendments here. I further wish to cite the 1st section of the 14th
amendment because it has been stated in the press that there are State
police sitting in this courtroom gathering evidence for possible con-
viction under the Trucks Act, and this committee is acting in collusion
with the State police to take away the same rights that I have already
argued about.
Mr. Clardy. All right.
Mr. Engel. Further legal rights. I charge this committee with
violating the entire main body of the Constitution proper and in par-
ticular article I which deals with the legislature, legislative sections of
our Federal Government; article II, which deals with the executive
branch of the Federal Government ; article III, which deals with the
judicial branch of the Federal Government, and I say that the entire
legal precedent and what I have learned in school and come to respect
as our American form of government as the separation of powers, as
the checks and balances^ — —
Mr. Clardy. Witness, that is very well. Now we will give you the
benefit of having raised as an objection every paragraph, line, word,
comma, and period in the Constitution. From here on out, as the ques-
tions are propounded you will have that protection by merely saying
"I shall refuse to answer on the grounds previously advanced." Now
move on to your next question, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that the witness be
directed to answer the question as to whether or not the signature on
the document before him is his signature?
Mr. Clardy. Yes, I did so once. I direct again.
Mr. Engel. Do you want me to repeat my reasons?
Mr. Clardy. I told you no, we will not permit you to repeat them in
extenso. You may have the privilege and the coverage by merely say-
ing you refuse to answer on the grounds already advanced.
Mr. Engel, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds already
advanced.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document, the application, in
evidence and ask that it be marked "Engel Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Clardy. It will be received.
(Photostatic copy of application for employment at Chevrolet,
dated July 12, 1949, marked "Engel Exhibit No. 1" was received in
evidence. ) ^
Mr. Tavenner. Wliy was it that you did not advise your prospective
employer, the Chevrolet Motor Co., that you held a B. S. degrea in
social science from City College ?
1 Retained In committee files.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5595
Mr. Engel. Mr. Tavenner, you are assuming something I did not
say. Therefore I am in doubt as how to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. You advised the connnittee that you could not recall
having so advised your employer.
Mr. Engel. I said I did not recall w^hether I did or did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, why didn't you ?
Mr. Engel. You are assuming that.
Mr. Tavenner. It is not on your application, is it?
Mr. Engel. I have not said — I have not admitted that that was my
application.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you give your employer any information re-
garding your educational background other than that which you put
on your formal application?
Mr. Engel. I don't see why I would have.
Mr. Clardy. Well, that isn't the question. Witness. Did you or did
you not ? That would call for a straight "yes" or "no."
Mr. Engel. I don't believe I have, no.
Mr. Clardy. You don't believe ?
Mr. Engel. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Would you deny that you did give them additional in-
formation?
Mr. Engel. As to may educational background ?
Mr. Clardy. Yes, yes, particularly.
Mr. Engel. Well, now it has been 5 years since I made that applica-
tion. I don't recall. But to the best of my knowledge I only gave
them portions of my formal education.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to read into evidence a part of the docu-
ment. The application signed Marvin Engel, bearing date of July
12, 1949, under the heading of educational records, shows the fol-
lowing :
Grammar school, 1934-39. Junior high school, 1939-41. Senior high school,
1941-45. Business college and college, no entry.
Isn't it a fact, Mr. Engel, that you deliberately concealed from the
Chevrolet Co. the fact that you had been awarded the B. S. degree in
social science from City College ?
Mr. Engel. Are you accusing me of a crime, sir ?
Mr. Clardy. Answer the question. Witness.
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer that question for the reasons already
stated, and I would like to say that I don't appreciate, Mr. Clardy,
laughing when I am on the stand. I would like the record to show
that.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, the committee is in charge of the proceeding,
and we are going to conduct it according to our own rules. Now, no
further advice from you will be requested or tolerated.
Mr. Engel. I think this is a serious matter.
Mr. Clardy. Will you proceed to ask the next question ?
Mr. Tavenner. You advised the committee in your testimony a few
moments ago that you had had no employment from January 1945
until the time you obtained your employment in Flint. In order to
get employment at Flint — at Chevrolet, did you make a representation
that you had been employed for a period of time by the Universal
Fence Co. ?
5596 COMMTJNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer that question for all of the reasons
I originally stated, and also on the grounds that I feel that this inquiry
into my employment is threatening my livelihood today.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I desire to read in evidence a part of
Engel exhibit No. 1.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Relating to employment.
Under "employment record" appears the following :
United States Navy, January 1945 to October 1946, seaman : Universal Fence
Co., January 1947 to June 1949, total time in months, 30 months ; salesman and
stock clerk.
Did you make that representation of the Chevrolet Co.?
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. As a matter of fnct, did you not m;dve such a rep-
resentation to the Chevrolet Co. in order to deceive it as to your exact
status, namely, a student just out of a university ?
Mr. Engel. Is that the question ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Engel. AVell, I think you are trying to charge me with some-
thing here, and I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, as you have stated, you were not
employed at any time by Universal Fence Co. ; that is correct, isn't it?
Mr. Engel. I have given you my record.
Mr. Tavenner. All right, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Just a moment. You haven't answered the last ques-
tion. Either answer it or decline.
Mr. Engel. I have said that during the time I was in school or in
the Navy that I had no other employment outside of going to school or
being in the Navy.
INIr. Taa'enner. And that you had not had any employment up until
the time you accepted your employment at Chevrolet.
Mr. Engel. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. You are aware, are you not, that where an employer
has been specified on a form for application that it is the practice of
the company, through which the ajjplicant is seeking employment, to
make an investigation of employment. Are you aware of that, as a
general practice ?
Mr. Engel. Well, you seem to be better versed on those matters
than I am.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, are you aware of that as a general practice?
Mr. Engel. I will take your word for it, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, you may acce])t my word for that because
I have here the form used by Chevrolet Manufacturing Co. to make
such investigation. This is the usual form of the company, and I
hand you a photostatic copy of it and ask you to examine it. Does
not the form make an inquiry on the ])art of the Chevrolet Co. of Uni-
versal Fence Co., stating that you had reported yourself to have been
employed by that company from January 1947 until 1949 and in which
it requested confirmation of that fact by the ITniversal Fence Co.
(At this point Mr. Phigel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Engel. This form that you have placed before me does say that.
Mr. Tavenner. Does not the form also show that you had been so
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5597
employed by that company from 19-17 to 1949 over the signature of
the employer ?
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Engel. This form says that a certain person whose name is on
here has done what you specified.
Mr. Clardy. Would you repeat that ? I couldn't hear it.
Mr. Engel. This form does say that the person whose name is on
here has done as you have stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Who is the person that so stated '^
Mr. Engel. The name that is written upon this photostat which
you have placed before me is Marvin Engel.
Mr. Clardy. Is there any other ISIarvin Engel employed at the
plant where you work ?
Mr. Engel. I would suggest that you ask the personnel office,
Mr. Clardy. I am directing you to answer that question.
Mr. Engel. I have no way of knowing.
Mr. Clardy. You have no knowledge at all ?
Mr. Engel. I don't know\ I have no access to the files.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask this ?
Mr. Clardy. Yes, you may, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Do you know of any other Marvin Engel working at
Chevrolet Co., during the time of your employment there ?
Mr. Engel. I don't know of any, no.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Engel, you stated that the fact of employment
of Marvin Engel by the Universal Fence Co. from January 1947 to
1 949 appears over the signature of a person. Now is that person whose
name I asked you not your name ?
Mr. Engel. I am sorry. I didn't
Mr. Tavenner. Will you look at the name signed at the bottom of
the paper, the person who certified that you were employed by Uni-
versal Fence Co. from 1947 to 1949 ?
Mr. Excel. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Who is it ?
Mr. Engel. I can't make the signature out.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Who was the owner or operator of Universal Fence
Co. at that time ?
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds
as previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your difficulty with making out the name
that appears at the bottom of the paper ?
Mr. Engel. I can make out the first name.
Mr. Tavenner. AVliat is it ?
Mr. Engel. Well, I believe it is Sidney.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Engel. The second name is completely illegible to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Completely ?
Mr. Engel. Yes, sir, completely. There is a dot, some place over
it, so I assume that is an "i."
Mr. Tavenner. Is the name Linn ?
Mr. Clardy. L-i-n-n ?
Mr. Engel. It may be.
48861— 54— pt. 2
5598 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardt. Is it?
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you are an intellectual
Mr. Engel. Thank yon, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Certainly you are
Mr. Engel. Let us try and raise it to that level, shall we?
Mr. Tavenner. It has already been done by witnesses.
Mr. Clardy. Just a moment, Mr. Counsel. I didn't make this clear
this morning as we did the other mornings — I must ask that there be
no demonstrations, either in approval or disapproval, and I suggest
again to the witness that you just answer the question and leave out
the wisecracks. Now proceed.
Mr. Engel. That was in response to Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Clardy. You heard me.
Mr. Tavenner. Does the name appear to you to be that of Sidney
Linn?
Mr. Engel. It may be.
Mr. Tavenner. Aren't you satisfied that it is?
Mr. Engel. I say it may be. It may be about 500 other things, too.
Mr. Tavenner. Aren't you satisfied to the best of your judgment
that it is Sidney Linn ?
Mr. Engel. Did you say L-i-n-n ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Engel. It may be that; yes.
JMr. Clardy. You know Sidney Linn very well, don't you?
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer that question on the grounds I
have already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Now why was it that Sidney Linn, if you know,
confirmed employment by you from 1947 to 1949 which you never
performed ?
ISIr. Engel. I decline to answer that statement and any other state-
ments of that nature for the same reasons, and I think that you are
just trying to run the box score up that I referred to before.
Mr. Tavenner. Oh, no.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Counsel, may I ask this question to clarify my
understanding? Do yon menu that tlie record shows that Mr. Linn
signed the certification that this witness was in his employ when he
was not ?
Mr. Tavenner. The witness has testified
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. The witness has testified that he was never so
employed. The form of the application shows that he was so
employed, and the inquiry made by Chevrolet Co. shows a certifica-
tion by the employer, Mr. Sidney Linn, that he was actually employed
during that period of time.
Mr. Doyle. All right, thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I want to ask you. Isn't it a fact that that
was a prearranged scheme to assist you in getting employment within
Chevrolet in Flint, to have Sidney Linn make that certification?
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer that question for the same reasons
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, Sidney Linn was identified by the
witness Bereniece Baldwin in Detroit last week as a member of the
Communist Party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5599
Mr. Clardy. I recall.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to introcluce-
Mr. Doyle. You mean the same Sidney Linn that filed this certi-
fication, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Clardy. That is rijj;ht, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Tavenner. It is Sidney Linn, that is all I can say. I desire
to introduce the document in evidence and ask that it be marked
"Engel Exhibit No. 2."
Mr, Clardy. It will be received.
(Photostatic copy of form of Chevrolet Manufacturing Co, above
referred to, marked "Enojel Exhibit No. 2," was received in evidence.)^
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Engel, were you acquainted with a person by
the name of Sidney Graber?
Mr. Engel. I am not goino; to permit this committee to question
me on people whom I do or do not know. I am not going to pros-
trate myself and tell all, whether I know anything or not. You will
not pry into my associations, and I decline to answer that or any other
questions concerning people that I might or might not know, on all
of the grounds that I have previously stated and on the additional
ground that being an informer before this committee, which you are
trying to make me do — become, would tend to degrade me.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, I think I must point out to you, you said you
would not permit the committee to do thus and so. You have no con-
trol whatever over what this committee may do. You may merely
decline to answer or may answer, but no impertinent remarks of tliat
kind are going to be permitted from here on out, unless you wish to
run the risk of being cited for contempt.
Now, proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Engel, did you give the name of Sidney Graber
as a reference to tlie Chevrolet Co. when you sought employment by it?
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer that question for the same reasons
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner, Will you examine Engel exhibit No. 1 and look at
the tliird line, on the second page, uncler the title ''personal refer-
ences," second line
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Tavenner. And state what name you see there ?
Mr. Engfx. Might I suggest that there is a clerk here who could
read this document of yours just as well as I could. They are getting
paid for it, and I am losing money.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, you have forgotten that you are before a
committee of Congress. Now answer the question.
Mr, Engel. Wliat was the question ?
Mr. Tavenner, Read the
Mr, Engel, Just a moment.
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr, Clardy. You better not consult counsel until you are sure of
the question. Will you read it, Miss Reporter ?
(The question was read by the reporter as follows:)
Will you examine Engel Exhibit No. 1 and look at the third line, on the second
page, under the title "personal references," second line, and state what name
you see there?
^ Retained in committee files.
5600 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer any question related to this docu-
ment that you have presented before me for the same reasons that I
have already stated.
Mr. TxWENNER. Mr. Chairman, I desire to read into the testimony
the second line under "personal references" as appears in document
Engel Exhibit No. 1. The name, Sidney Graber; address, 12064
North JMartindale; city, Detroit; State, Michigan; 3 years length
of acquaintance.
Mr. Doyle. ]May I ask, to my recollection, is that exhibit 1 a photo-
stat of the original application of this witness for employment at
Chevrolet Co. 'i
Mr. Tavenner. It is, sir.
Mr. Clardy. And the last you read into the record was designed
to show that Sidney Graber was given as a reference, is that correct ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the person Sidney Graber was iden-
tified as a member of the Comnumist Party during the course of the
testimony in Detroit last week. Mr. Graber was called as a witness
and refused to answer material questions on the ground that to do so
might tend to incriminate him.
Isn't it a fact, Mr. Engel, that you were one of the colonizers who
either voluntarily or acting upon the direction of the Communist
Party sought to mhltrate the Clievrolet plant in Flint by getting em-
ployment there ?
Mr. Engel. I got employment in the Chevrolet plant to make a
living, to be able to support myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any other reason ?
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer the question because you have in-
dicated some deep conspiracy here, and I decline to answer that on
all the grounds that I have previously stated, and on the additional
ground that if you have knowledge of my participating in any con-
spiracy, of breaking the law, why don't you prosecute me in a court ?
Mr. Clardy. Proceed. Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party in
New York before coming to Flint ?
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer that question for all of the reasons
I have already stated and for the additional reason that, as has been
stated by members of this committee, and as has appeared in the news-
papers, as a recommendation by Attorney General Brownell, I believe,
that it is the intention of this committee and of certain other people
in the Government to pass such legislation that would, by throwing
the word "subversive" around, enable the cripjiling of entire union
organizations, and I will not be a party to that. I am talking specif-
ically
Mr. Tavenner. You state you will not be a party to that. Were
you a party to the Communist Party plan to concentrate Conmiunist
effort in the automobile industry in Flint ?
Mr. Engel. I have told you, Mr. Tavenner, that I will not answer
any questions concerning my associations or my political beliefs, and
I have told you that I will decline to answer that question, those ques-
tions, on all of the reasons already stated, and I also decline to answer
because I will not become a fink for the destruction of the trade unions
of this country.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5601
Mr. Doyle. Now just a ininute. I want you to understand, young
man, that as a member of this committee 1 am not interested either
directly or indirectly in destroying any trade unions in this country.
Mr. Engel. Then why do you sit on the committee with the other
two gentlemen ?
Mr. Doyle. Just wait a minute, please. I want you to understand
and any other trade unionist in this area that I am very proud of the
fact that I am always endorsed by the A. F. of L. and the right wing
of CIO. I am not endorsed by Communist subversives in the State
of California, and I am definitely interested in helping uncover a
bunch of conspirators under the direction of the Communist Party
in my country — that is why I am sitting on this committee. But I
want to make it straight to you that it is a lot of malarkey in my judg-
men when you come here and try to throw up the defense of trade
unionism because you are not doing it in my hearing by the sort of
testifying you have been giving this morning.
Mr. Engel. Would you like me to quote from the
Mr. Clardy. Never mind, witness. No question is pending.
I want to join in what you have said, Mr, Doyle. That lejiresents
the thinking of the entire committee and particularly of the other two
members that are here today.
Mr. Velde. I certainly
Mr. Engel. Your record is 100 percent antilabor.
Mr. Clakdt. Never mind, witness. There is no question pending.
Proceed, ]Mi'. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Engel, did you, near the middle of September
1949, attend a meeting of the youth group of the Communist Party
at a farm near Columbianville, Mich., at which time the meeting was
conducted by Jack Gore and Jack White, and at tliat meeting the
members of the youth group of the (^onnnunist P "ty were given
assignments of organizations which they were to join, najnely, the
Labor Youth League and Young Progressives?
Mr. Engel. Well, now which part of that is your question?
Mr. Tavenner. It is one question.
Mr. Engel. You said a mouthful.
Mr. Tavenner. I asked you if you attended a meeting at which
that business was conducted.
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer any questions concerning my per-
sonal, political, or other activities, my associations, whom I talked to,
what I do. I decline to answer those questions before this committee
because I don't have to answer those questions before this cnmmittee,
and I decline to do so on all of tlie grovmds that I have previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned by the leadership of the Com-
munist Party in the area of Flint to work in the Labor Youth League
movement.
Mr. Engel. Mr. Tavenner, that is the same question, and I give
3 ou the same answer. I just won't answer those questions. You have
no right to ask them.
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member — —
Mr. Engel. Just a moment. I use all the grounds I ])reviously
stated.
5602 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. That is understood. Are you now a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Engel. Again I decline to answer that question on all of the
grounds that I have previously stated, and on the additional ground
that by merely asking me that question and these other questions that
you have asked me, you are intending — I say intending — to indict —
to try me before the eyes of the public for some nonexistent crime.
Instead this committee is indicting itself.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I just want the record to show that I
disagree with the young man where he makes that false accusation
against the purpose and intent of this committee.
I can't sit here and have that false, malicious charge made with me
a member of the committee because it is untrue, and I believe it is
manifestly known to be untrue by the witness.
Mr, Engel. Mr, Doyle, why do you sit on a committee with men
who are against 75 cent minimum wage ?
Mr. Clardy. Witness, will you remain silent, please? You were
not addressed. You have been most impertinent. I join with Mr.
Doyle in what he says. Do you have any more questions, Mr, Taven-
ner?
Mr. Tavenner. One more question. Have you been a member of
the Communist Party at any time and at any place other than those
that you have been interrogated about ?
Mr, Engel. I would like you to separate that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, if you think there is some unjust reference,
I will
Mr. Engel. That is the old "Have you stopped beating your wife."
and I don't even have a wife, which makes it worse.
Mr. Tavenner. I have asked you about your alleged Communist
Party membership at various times and various places. The purpose
of my question now is to ask you whether or not you have ever been
a member of tl e Communist Party at any place or time other than
what I have already mentioned.
Mr. Engel. Why don't you make it nice and simple and ask me
one question ?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, put it your way,
Mr, Clardy, Witness, answer the question. Don't lecture counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Put it your way. Have you ever been a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Engel. I decline to answer that question for all of the reasons
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Velde?
Mr, Velde, Have you ever been a member of the Labor Youth
League ?
Mr. Engel. I decline that question for the same reasons, and on
the additional ground that from what I have seen in evidence as the
actions of this committee as concerns young people's ideas who are
supposed to be searcliing for answers, looking for things, thev are
more concerned with looking into their minds than to find out what is
going to happen to the three-quarter million graduates of schools this
spring who will not have any jobs to go to.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5603
Mr. Velde. Mr. Engel, do you presently belong to the Labor Youth
League ?
Mr. Engel. I decline again to answer that question, as you very well
knew I would, for the same reasons.
Mr. Velde. You actually have contempt for this committee, do you
not ?
Mr. Engel. Are you asking me what my personal feeling is toward
you?
Mr. Velde. No; I am just asking you whether you have contempt
in your heart for this committee of the United States Congress.
Mr. Engel. I am very contemptuous of any group which tries will-
fully to step upon and to destroy the constitutional liberties of the
people of this country.
Mr. Velde. And you include the ITn- American Activities Commit-
tee of the House of Representatives in that category, is that right?
Mr. Engel. You may conclude anything you want.
Mr. Velde. Well, do you include it?
Mr. Engel. I have, Mr. Velde, contempt for your antilabor record
and for the witch-hunting activities that this committee has indulged
in, and that goes for Mr. Clardy in spades.
Mr. Clardy. Thank you.
Mr. Engel. You are welcome.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Doyle, do you have any questions ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, I do, Mr. Chairman. I couldn't help but notice
that the witness did not include me as a witch hunter.
May I have exhibit No. 1, please ?
Mr. Clardy. Well, don't be too optimistic, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Of course I come from a State where we don't have
witches.
Mr. Engel. Mr. Jackson seems to disagree with you, sir. Of course
I am glad to see the two-party system reinstituted here today.
Mr. Clardy. You had better concentrate on what the learned Mem-
ber from California is going to ask you. You may find some difficulty.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Engel, I present you with exhibit 1 which you have
seen here before. I now call your attention again to the rear page
thereof, and there appears to be there, after the printed words "signa-
ture of applicant," in writing, M-a-r-v-i-n Engel, date, July 12, 1949.
Does that appear to be your signature ?
Mr. Engel. May I consult with counsel ?
Mr. Doyle. Sure, consult with your counsel as long as you want as
far as I am concerned.
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Engel. I have already declined to answer any questions con-
cerning this document.
Mr. Doyle. Now, will you please write your signature on that
paper ?
(At this point Mr. Engel conferred with Mr. Weston.)
Mr. Doyle. Just as you ordinarily do.
Mr. Engel. My counsel informs me that I do not have to do that.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I am asking you to.
Mr. Engel. Well, and I am refusing.
Mr. Doyle. Well, are you doino; it because your counsel tells you
you don't have to, or are you relying on your own opinion ?
5604 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Engel. ]\Ir. Doyle, now just a minute. There is, I understand,
supposed to be a sacred relationship between counsel
Mr. Doyle. That is correct, and I am a lawyer and I am respect-
ing
Mr. Engel. You are asking me about that sacred relationship.
Mr. Doyle. I am not.
Mr. Engel. I am not a lawyer, but I know that much.
Mr. Doyle. I am not asking you to tell me what your lawyer told
you, that is a confidential matter between you. But I have a right
to know whether by counsel's advice or on your own standing. That
is all I am asking you.
Mr. Engel. Ihavemy own pen, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Clardy. Will you use it ?
Mr. Engel. No, sir; I will not. I don't think I have to. I will
not do anything before this committee — I will not perform or jump
through hoops or do anything I don't have to do before this com-
mittee, and I don't liave to do that.
Mr. Clardy. You may be surprised at what you have to do.
Mr. Engel. I mav be, but you will be surprised in November, too.
Mr. Doyle. May I finish this, please ?
Mr. Clardy. I don't know how to thank you for that. JNIr. Doyle,
will you proceed ?
Mr. Doyle. Did you sign an application for emplovment with the
Chevrolet Co. on or about the 7th montli, 12th day, 1949?
Mr. Engel. Mr. Doyle, I have already answered that question, I
believe.
Mr. Doyle. You haven't answered my question. I am asking you
courtec^Tsly.
Mr. Engel. Sometime in July I made application and filled an
application out for employment in the Chevrolet plant of Flint.
Mr. Doyle. Would you say this is or is not that application?
Mr. Engel, I refuse to answer that question on all the grounds I
have already stated.
Mr. Doyle. You have referred to Public Law 601 under which this
committee functions. Regardless of what your answers may have
been this morning up to date, I am going to ask you a few questions
along a cliiferent line, and I wish to make this statement before I ask
you those 2 or 3 questions. I am assuming because you have had the
benefit of a public education at the expense of the taxpayers of the
United States, so far as the schools are concerned, I mean their main-
tenance and so forth, that you naturallv want to cooperate with the
committee of your own Congress in fulfilling its legal obligations.
That is a fair assumption, isn't it, on my part ?
Mr. Engel, Well, now, I will— —
Mr. Doyle. Wouldn't you say that I have a right to assume that
you as a young American, would want to cooperate with a committee
of voTir own Congress in fulfilling its legal obligation ?
Mr. Engel. Let me answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. That is my question.
Mr. Engel. All right. Now let me answer it.
Mr. Doyle, All right, go ahead.
Mr. Engel. I would be very anxious to cooperate with a committee
of Congress that came into the State of Michigan to investigate the
terrible situation of over 200,000 unemployed in this State.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5605
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute, please.
Mr. Clardy. Just a minute, witness.
Mr. Doyle. Let us be fair with each other. I don't ask you that
question to give you a chance to propagandize any particular theory
you have.
Mr. Engel. Do you think unemployment a theory in this State, sir?
Mr. Doyle. Not at all. It is a fact wliich I regret, but nevertheless
you know what the terms of Public Law 601 are. You have already
shown that in the last hour. You are very familiar with it.
Mr. Engel. It is also a violation of the first amendment, and I hold
the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to be sacred, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Wait a minute. You mean Public Law 601 is a viola-
tion of the Constitution ?
Mr. Engel. I believe so, yes ; and if I didn't make it clear originally,
I intended to.
INIr. Doyle. Of course you know high courts have held it is not, so
you differ •
Mr. Engel. The high courts also held in favor of the Dred Scott
decision.
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. That is beside the point. You know
that.
Mr. Engel. It is not. There will come a time when this committee
and 601 will be kicked out the door.
]\Ir. Clardy. Never mind.
Mr. Doyle. May I state this to you then : I ho])ed that I would get
respectful coo])eration from you on one point, but I am frank to state,
having sat with this committee for some time in ditferent cities of the
United States, that the line you gave this morning in answering these
questions to this committee is a very familiar line known to me as a
result of my experience in this country of the Connnunist Party.
The same sort of answers, the same sort of arguments, and I
Mr. Clardy. Same sort of conduct also, IMr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. I just regret that I can't get a respectful bit of cooper-
ation from you on the frank question that I am asking you. I am
not trying to lecture you, sir. I am not trying to lecture 3'ou, and so
I will not question any longer because I see you have no I'espect for
this committee, even as a legal committee of the United States Con-
gress, wdiich I regret very much, sir.
Mv Clardy. Witness, I have one vital question tliat I ask you to
ponder very well before you reply.
]Mr. Engel. I know what it is before you ask it.
Mr. Clardy. Will you remain quiet, please? Have you ever been
or are you now a member of an}' organization whose avowed purpose
is the destruction of this Government through the use of force and
violence ? You may decline to answer if you desire.
Mr. Engel. If you, sir, have any information to that effect, take
me to court and bring me up on charges where I can examine evidence,
but don't cast aspersions and charges under the cloak of congressional
immunity. Of course I decline to answer that question here, but you
take me into court, and we will fight it out there.
Mr. Clardy. You are declining to answer?
Mr. Engel. I certainly do, and very indignantly, I might add.
Mr. Ci ARDY. Very well.
5606 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, may I just have the record show this :
Of course the witness knows that this committee does not pretend
to be a court nor a jury
Mr. Engel. Oh, but it does.
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute now. You well know that we don't. We
never have and never can under the law in which we function. We
have no function as a court, but under Public Law 601 we are a fact-
finding body with reference to subversive propaganda and activities,
that is all.
Mr. Engel. Activities is not in there. Tlie word is not in Public
Law 001. Read it out here. The name of this committee is a mis-
nomer.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, you are going to lose your voice if you don't
curb that
Mr. Doyle. I am perfectly familiar with the fact that the Com-
munist Party relies on that argument whenever and wherever it can..
Mr. Clardy. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Engel. Why don't you read 601 ?
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Clardy. The witness is dismissed, and we will take a 5-minute
recess to accommodate Miss Reporter.
(Wliereupon, at 10 :43 a. m., the hearing was recessed to reconvene at
10:48 a.m.)
("Wliereupon, at 10 :54 a. m., the hearing was reconvened.)
Mr. Clardy. The committee will come to order, please. Call your
next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. George W. Fox, will you come forward, please ?
Mr. Clardy. Hold up your right hand. You do solemnly swear
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Fox. I do.
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated. Will counsel please identify
himself ?
Mr. Newblatt. Harry Newblatt.
Mr. Fox. I would like to have no pictures taken while I am
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE WHITMAN EOX, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS ~
COUNSEL, HAERY NEWBLATT
Mr. Fox. My name is George TSHiitman Fox.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Fox?
Mr. Fox. I was born in Detroit on September 21, 1922.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliere do you now reside ?
Mr. Fox. I live at Flint, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. ^Yliat is your occupation ?
Mr. Fox. I am a brooch operator.
Mr. Tavenner. I am sorry, I couldn't hear you.
Mr. Fox. I am a brooch operator for the Chevrolet manufacturing.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state that again, please?
Mr. Fox. A brooch operator.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed by the Chevrolet
Motor Co. ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5607
Mr. Fox. Since July 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the nature of your employment when you
first be^an to work for Chevrolet ?
Mr. Fox. I was
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr, Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. I would like to request that no pictures be taken while I
am i^ivino^ testimony.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Proceed.
Mr. Fox. I was a product handler.
Mr. Tavenner. I am sorry, I am having difficulty hearing you.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, will the witness keep his voice up. The competi-
tion outside from the manufacturing in this community makes it
rather difficult to hear.
Mr. Fox. I was a product handler,
Mr. Tavenner, A product handler ?
Mr. Fox. That is right.
Mr, Tavenner. TVliat does that mean ?
Mr. Fox. I was handling the products of the plant where I worked.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what was the nature of the work you do in
handling products ?
Mr. Fox. This was in the sheet-metal plant. It was the part known
as the air duct.
Mr. Tavenner. Known as what ?
Mr. Fox. Air duct.
Mr. Tavenner. Air duct ?
Mr. Fox. Yes, for the ventilating systems in the car.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the nature of the work that you actually
performed ?
Mr. Fox, I was hanging these pieces on a line, on a conveyor, to go
through a paint
Mr. Tavenner. You put these pieces of metal on a c<jnveyor ?
Mr. Fox. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Where they were taken into the paint shop ?
Mr. Fox. Yes.
Mr. Tavtenner. That was your fii-st employment. How long did
you continue in that type of work with Chevrolet ?
Mr, Fox, About 10 months.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether you
have had any special training for this job of handling products?
Mr. Fox. It needed no special training.
Mr. Tavenner. You needed none, that is true. But what had been
your educational training ?
Mr. Fox. I was educated in the public schools of the State of Michi-
gan, I went to grammar school at Smith-Troy in Oakland County,
Mr, Tavenner. Would you elevate your voice a little? For some
reason it is difficult to pick up,
Mr. Fox. I feel like I am talking at the top of my voice as it is.
I attended Smith-Troy grade school in Troy Township, Oakland
County, Mich. I attended Claussen High School in the city of Claus-
sen, Mich., and I graduated from Michigan State College in East
Lansing.
Mr. Clardy. That was from the school of civil engineering, was
it not?
Mr. Fox. That is correct.
5608 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. You had a civil en<Tineering job, and you took this
job that required no special preparation or training whatever; that
is correct, isn't it ?
Mr. Fox. That is correct.
Mr. Tavennek. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
the time that you took the job with Chevrolet ?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer this question as it infringes on the
right of free speech and assembly as guaranteed by the first amend-
ment to the Constitution and the implied right of silence. I decline
to answer that question as it infringes upon the right against unrea-
sonable search and seizure as guaranteed by the fourth amendment
to the Constitution. I decline to answer this question as it infringes
on the guarantee of the fifth amendment to the Constitution against
being compelled to be a witness against myself because it may tend
to incriminate me and because it deprives me of life, liberty, and prop-
ery without due process of law.
Mr. Claedy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Ta\T2Nxer. Did you rely on the fifth amendment in part?
Mr. Fox. I do.
Mr. Claedy. Henceforth, witness, if you desire to decline, you may
say on the grounds previously stated, and that will be ample for your
purpose.
Mr. Tavennee. Did you confer with the leadership of the Com-
munist Party in Ann Arbor or any other place regarding the nature
of your employment before you applied for the position w^th Chevro-
let^ I was mistaken in saying Ann Arbor. I should have said at
Lansing.
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer that question because I don't have to
consult with anybody as to where I am going to work, and also for
the reasons previously stated.
]\rr. Tavennkr. When did you receive your degree in engineering!
Mr. Fox. Well, I received my degree in June of 1949.
Mr. Tavennee. How soon after that was it that you applied for the
position at Chevrolet ?
Mr. Fox. In July of
Mr. Tavenner. In July, the next month ?
Mr. Fox. The next month.
INIr. Tavennee. It seems more than passingly strange that a per-
son who had just completed his scholastic training and had been
awarded a degree in civil engineering should, in 1 month's time take
a position as the handler of products which required no prepara-
tion or training of any kind. What was your reason for seeking
that type of employment ?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
]Mr. Fox. It was merely that I wanted to get employment immedi-
ately at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that the only reason ?
Mr. Fox. Yes, sir; that was the only i-eason that I
Mr. Tavenner. That you wanted to get employment ?
Mr. Fox. Yes.
Mr. Tavennee. All right.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5609
Mr. Clakdy. Were you acquainted with the several other people
who have been named in the ])roceedin^s as havinoj obtained employ-
ment in Flint at about the same time ? In other words, during the
month of July or sliorlly thereafter 'i
Mr. Fox. i decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Velde. Did you ever seek employment where your civil
engineering degree would be useful ?
(At this ])oint Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. Will you rei^eat the question, please ?
Mr. Velde. Have you ever sought any type of employment where-
in your civil engineering degree would be a requirement for that
employment ?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr, Newblatt.)
]\Ir. Fox. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
]Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it true that in 1949 there was a large demand
for the employment of persons with the degree of civil engineering?
Mr. Fox. I do not know,
Mr. Tavenner. Then 3^ou did not inquire, did you ?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr, Newblatt.)
Mr, Fox. Inquire as to what ?
Mr. Tavenner. As to the possibility of getting a lucrative position
as a civil engineer.
(At this point ]Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. I have already declined to answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. Well, are you doing so now?
Mr. Fox. I am.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated that you wanted to get a job at the
Chevrolet plant. "Wliy did you want to get a job at the Chevrolet
plant?
Mr. Fox. I did not say that I wanted to get a job at the Chevrolet
plant.
Mr. Tavenner. Then I misunderstood you. "\'\niat did you say?
Mr. Fox. I said I wanted employment.
Mr. Tavenner. Why did you seek employment at the Chevrolet
plant?
Mr. Fox. They were hiring.
Mr. Clardy. Let me put tlie question a little differently. You used
the words a trifle differently than what Mr. Tavenner used. Were
you seeking employment at Chevi-olet for some special reason ?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. I souglit the job because I wanted to make a living, and
if you have any other grounds, I decline on the grounds previously
stated — if you have any other reasons for asking that question, I
decline on the grounds I have already stated.
Mr. Clardy. The reason I asked the question was to ascertain the
fact. I repeat it again, slightly differently, was there any reason other
than a mere desire to go to work somewhere in the back of your mind
that impelled you to go to Chevrolet and ask for a job?
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previously
stated, and I will decline to answer any similar questions for the
same
5610 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. You don't have to anticipate our questions. We will
ask them one at a time and you may reply.
Mr. Fox. AVell, you have asked me this question 2 or 3 times already .
Mr. Clardy. We may ask it 2 or 3 times again.
Mr. Fox. I will still decline.
Mr. Clardy. Will you proceed.
Mr. Tavenne'j. Did you become a membber of the Chevrolet Club of
the Communist Party soon after your employment at Chevrolet?
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to inquire some as to your knowledge of
Communist Party activities, if you have any, while you were m attend-
ance at Michigan State College. While in attendance at tiiat school
were you a member of the Michigan State College chapter of the Amer-
ican Youth for Democracy ?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, I believe you are a brother, are you not, of
Eichard Fox?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Clardy. Come, now, witness. I must direct you to answer that.
I am merely seeking to inquire whether you are a brother.
Mr. Doyle. Is that for the purpose of identification ?
Mr. Clardy. Surely. I have a further question as to wliethor tliev
were on the campus at the same time.
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Clardy. Whether they lived together.
Mr. Fox. I still decline to answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. Did you attend college at the same time that Richard
Fox was a student there ?
Mr. Fox. When was Eichard Fox a student at Michigan State Col-
lege ?
Mr. Clardy. Oh, now, witness, you know that. When were you a
student ?
Mr. Fox. AYell, I was a student from 1946 through 1949.
Mr. Clardy. Now was there a Eichard Fox attending M. S. C. dur-
ing that period ?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. There might have been.
Mr. Clardy. Don't you know ?
Mr. Fox. No, I do not know.
Mr. Clardy. Wliere did you live when you were attending M. S. C. ?
Mr. Fox. Eepeat the prior question.
Mr. Clardy. We have passed that one. Where were you living
when you were a student at M. S. C. ?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. Will you allow me to reanswer the prior question ?
Mr. Clardy. Do you want to change your answer ?
Mr. Fox. Yes.
Mr. (Yardy. You may do so.
Mr. Fox. Would you restate it ?
Mr. Clardy. Will you read him the question ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5611
(The question was read by the reporter as follows :)
Now was there a Richard Fox attending M. S. C. during that period?
Mr. Clardy. Is that the question you want to change ?
Mr. Fox. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. All right. Wliat is your answer now ?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. There could have been, and I am not sure. There might
even have been 2 or 3 Richard Foxes on the campus and perhaps this
Richard Fox is not the one that was on the campus at that time.
Mr. Clardy. I can't hear that last. This competition is rather keen,
as you know. That truck is pretty loud out there, probably a General
Motors product.
Mr. Fox. I say that there maj^ have been a Richard Fox on campus.
There may have been several Richard Foxes on campus. It is a com-
mon name, and it may not have been the Richard Fox that appeared
before your committee in Lansing according to the newspapers.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask, did your brother attend the college either
at the time you were there or before or afterwards ? That is a matter
of your own personal knowledge.
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt. )
Mr. Doyle. A simple question.
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer that question on the gi'ounds previous-
ly stated.
Mr. Clardy. Did you attend the hearings of the committee, this
committee, at Lansing ?
Mr. Fox. Yes, it was a public hearing.
Mr. Clardy. Did you see and were you present at the time that the
Richard Fox testified before this committee ?
Mr. Fox. When did he appear ?
Mr. Clardy, I am asking you the question. You are not asking us.
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. I was not there.
Mr. Clardy. You knew a Richard Fox did testify before us at Lan-
sing?
Mr. Fox. Yes, I read it in the newspapers.
Mr. Clardy. Was that not your brother ?
Mr. Fox. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr, Tavenner, Did you attend a meeting near the middle of Sep-
tember 1949 at a farm near Columbiaville, Mich. ; that is, a meeting
that was held there by the youth group of the Communist Party, and
which was conducted by Jack Gore and Jack White?
Mr. Fox. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the leadership of the Communist Party in Flint
at that meeting assign you to work in Communist Party matters in the
Chevrolet plant?
Mr. Fox. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds previous-
ly stated. I work in the Chevrolet plant to make a living. I work
8 hours a day as a brooch operator. I have a home to pay for, and
I missed a half day yesterday being present to appear before this com-
mittee.
5612 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. How many days did you miss from your work in
working for the Communist Party ?
Mr. Fox. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds previously
stated.
]Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a document here and ask you to state
if you recognize it.
(At this point Mv. Fox conferred with Mr. Newbhitt.)
Mr. Tavenner. Is it a bill or invoice made out to you as consignee?
Mr. Fox. Would you repeat that question, please ?
Mr. Clardy. Read it, Miss Reporter.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I may want to change the language
of it.
Mr. Clardy. Very well.
Mr. Tavenner. Is the bill made out to Jack White as consignee, but
signed by you as consignee ?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive a shipment of the Michigan Worker
on the date indicated by the document?
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. You have spoken about the loss of time from your
work. Didn't you engage in considerable work in the distribution of
tho Michigan Worker ?
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, the Michigan Worker should be
identified.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I desire to introduce the document in evi-
dence and ask that it be marked "George Fox Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Clardy. It will be received.
(The invoice above referred to, marked "George Fox Exhibit No. 1"
for identification, was received in evidence.)^
Mr. Doyle. May I have it read, Mr. Tavenner, so I will understand
what it is ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir; I plan to read it right now, but before
doing so, may I comply with the chairman's request as to the identifi-
cation of the IMichigan AVorker. As the chairman probably recalls,
Johnson exhibit No. 1, which was introduced in evidence at Detroit,
showed that one of the principal objectives of the Communist Party
in putting into effect its plan of concentration of Communist Party
activities in the industry in this area devoted 3 or 4 paragraphs to
making the Michigan Worker, and I quote here,
the main mass ideological instrument of carrying through the concentration
objectives of the party.
Mr. Clardy. The Chair recalls that very well, INIr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, the document which has been introduced in
evidence as George Fox exhibit No. 1 reads as follows — it is a waybill —
Destination, Flint, Michigan. Consignee, Jack White. Forwarding city,
Detroit. The shipper, Michigan Worker. One package, bundle, weight, 14 pounds.
Amount prepaid in cash, 85 cents. Waybill date, October 12, 1951. Tax, 3 cents.
Total charge, 88 cents.
"^ Retained in committee flies.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5613
At the place marked "consignee sign here" is the signature George
Fox.
Now I hand you the document again, Mr. Fox, and ask you if that is
your signature.
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you look at it please? Examine it carefully.
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Tavenner. Now, is that your signature ?
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a leaflet entitled "TVliat's It To You?"
and I will ask you to examine it and state whether or not you have
seen it before or one similiar to it ?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
]\Ir. Fox. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to introduce the document into evidencce
and ask that it be marked "George Fox exhibit No. 2."
Mr. Clardy. It will be received.
(Leaflet entitled "What's It To You?" marked George Fox exhibit
No. 2 was received in evidence.)^
Mr. Doyle. May I ask, Mr. Tavenner, is the Michigan Worker a
newspaper now in circulation or what ?
Mr. Tavenner. I am going to explain it in just 1 minute, if you
please.
Iklr. Doyle. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it a fact that you engaged in the work of pass-
ing this leaflet out at the Chevrolet gates on November 14, 1951, to
employees of the plant?
]Mr. Fox. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. The document which I have just introduced in evi-
dence as George Fox exhibit No, 2 related to the conviction, the trial and
conviction, of various persons under the Smith Act. As 1 of the mem-
bers of the committee, possibly 2, wlio are now sitting, were not
here when the document, Johnson exhibit No. 1, was introduced in
Detroit, I should call attention of the committee to the fact that an-
other one of the purposes of the document in directing Communist
Party members how they should put into effect the plan to concentrate
Communist Party activities on, General Motors in this area stated that
part of the struggle should be organizing to bring the case of the 12
before their fellow workers in local unions.
This document is too long to read in its entirety, but it refers to
Jack Hall, vice president of the International Longshoremen's Union,
organizer of the sugar workers in Hawaii, and poses the statement
that he is victim No. 64 under the Smith Act.
Then in large type follows the statement :
The big question facing every American worker is who will be victim No. 65.
The rest of the article is an attack upon the Smith Act trial and con-
cludes :
* Retained in committee files.
48861— 54— pt. 9 S
5614 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
It's time to speak up now. It is time to fight for repeal of this antilabor
decision now.
That is the decision in the Smith Act case.
This is a fight for your union. This is a fight that affects you.
Now, actually the matter, Mr. Fox, was a matter which affected the
Communist Party members in the union, not the union, isn't that true?
(At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Fox. Will you restate the question ?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you
Mr. Fox. No, put it in a different form.
Mr. Tavenner. You would like it in a different form. Very well,
sir. Were you not aware on November 14, 1951, that the Smith Act
cases were cases which related to members of the Communist Party^
because of their Communist Party membership and not because of
membership in any union or any other organization ?
ISIr. Fox. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Ta^^nner. You did participate, did you not, at that time in
carrying out the directive of the State organization of the Commu-
nist Party in attacking the Government's prosecution of the Smith Act
cases ?
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previ-
ously stated. You are trying to inquire as to my opinions. I would
freely state them outside of this hearing room, but here I am under
oath, and something I might say might be used against me.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir ; it is important to stick to the truth.
Mr. Clardy. If you tell the truth, there is nothing that can be used
against you. If you commit perjury, obviously it can and probably
will be, but only under those circumstances.
Proceed, Mr, Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Fox. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds already
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Fox. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds already
stated.
]Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. ^Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. I think I have a couple of questions I hope the witness
will cooperate on. As far as I am concerned, Mr. Witness, the reason
I am on this committee here this morning is that T am assigned
as a member of this committee to function under Public Law 601,
which directs that this committee shall investigate the extent and
character of subversive and un-American activities in the United
States. Before I ask you this question I just wish to make a brief
statement so you will get the background of it, because I know you are
a worker in industry, and I presume a member of some union, although
it is immaterial to me on that point where you are or not. I am not
interested in what union you are a member of or whether or not you
are a member of a union, contrary to what another witness said before
you, but I am familiar with the fact that generally speaking over the
United States the Communist Party in America has been trying to in-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5615
filtrate for several years and get control of organized labor in various
vicinities of our Nation.
That is true out in certain areas out in my State in California, and
the leaders in organized labor out there don't deny it. They have
been cleaning house out there of the Communists, and I am informed
that the Commies have been trying to get control or keep control of
certain segments of organized labor in the Flint and the Detroit area.
I am not asking your opinion or your political philosophy of any sort
on this question, but we are here as a committee of your Congress —
as much your Congress as it is mine — as a legally constituted com-
mittee. You may disagree for the use of such a committee existing,
but there is such' a connnittee existing. We are here as the arm of
your Congress to investigate and report back to Congress what we
can find out about the extent to which there is subversive activities and
propaganda in the Flint and Detroit area.
Now, I am going to assume, in asking this question, that you will
naturally cooperate with a committee of your own Congress because
your Congress, as you well know, has found that there is ample evi-
dence to show that the American Communist Party is part of a world
conspiracy to overthrow by force and violence our constitutional form
of government.
Now, on that basis I am here, and the question I am interested in,
the big subject I am interested in, naturally you are an American
citizen the same as I am, and I think I have a right to expect your
cooperation. I think I have a right to expect you to put yourself
out quite a little bit to help this committee know what you know,
if anything, about the extent of the Communist Party movements in
this area because your Congress has found without contradiction
that the American Communist Party is part of a world conspiracy.
Now, with that background I am going to ask you, do you know of
any Communist Party "activities in the last 5 or 6 years since you got
your civil engineering degree and went to work for the Chevrolet Co. ?
Mr. Fox. Mr. Doyle, I am as good an American as you are. I vol-
unteered to serve in* the United States Army in 1942 after- Pearl Har-
bor was attacked. I served honorably for three and a half years.
Mr. Doyle. You may be as good an American citizen as I am because
I didn't have the honor to serve in the armed services, but my only
boy gave his life in the uniform of the Air Force in the last war, so
I will have to do it through him, don't you see.
Mr. Fox. I sympathize with you.
Mr. Clardy. Answer the question, witness.
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer the question on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Doyle. ISIay I say then just this to you, sir : I am a lawyer, and
I, of course, respect any witness who in good faith stands upon his
constitutional rights. I expect a witness, if he is in good inith and
conscience, to stand upon his constitutional rights. In making this
statement to you, I don't apply it to you, but I am more, as an Amer-
ican citizen and member of a congressional committee, interested gen-
erally.
Your answer leads me to ask you 2 or 3 other questions. I ask them
very directly.
Were you ever a member of the American Communist Party, either
at college or since ?
5616 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN J
Mr. Fox. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds previously
stated, and I am stating them in good faith, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Well, of course that goes into your own philosophy, and A
you are volunteering now that as a matter of philosophy it is in good
faith. I didn't question what your philosophy was, but I think you
volunteered it.
This paper I asked about, the Michigan Worker, are you familiar
with the Michigan Worker?
( At this point Mr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Doyle. What is it ? I don't know.
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Doyle. Well, it is a publication, isn't it, a legal publication?
How can that incriminate you, a legal publication in the State of
Micliigan?
Mr. Fox. I still decline to answer the question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Doyle. I am not asking you if you are employed by it ; I am
just asking you if you know what it is. I hand you a copy of
Mr. Clardy. Tliat is the resolution, Mr. Doyle. I think the copy
of tlie Michigan Worker is here in front of Counsel.
Mr. Doyle. Well, are you familiar with this resolution, a copy of
which I hand you? Have you ever read it? It is only a question to
refresh your memory.
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer the question on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Doyle. Well, now, this resolution entitled "Resolution on Con-
centration for Discussion at All Clubs, Sections, Commissions, and
Departments," and then paragraph 1 reads :
Our party in Michigan has a great responsibility —
and I am quoting from paragraph 1. Do you wisli to see, Counsel, that
I do quote exactly ?
Mr. Newblatt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle (continues reading) :
Our party in Michigan has a great responsibility to move the auto workers
into struggle against their exploiters — tiie auto barons and their stooges in
governuient. The auto monopolists are a key section of American imperialism,
which seeks political and economic domination of the world, and the crushing
of the people's democracies and the Soviet Union through a pi*edatory war —
end of paragraph 1.
Reading on page 2, third from the last paragraph :
Our State committee has just reviewed 9 months of concentration work by
our party, since tlie last State convention. In that time our party has increased
its attention to the problems of the auto workers. The face of our party has been
presented to the auto workers to a greater degree than in the past 10 years. We
have seen the development of economic struggles, dramatized in the Ford strike
against speedup, despite the stifling attempts of Reuther. A beginning has been
made in the development of the united front from below.
The second from the last paragraph on page 2 of this resolution :
This period of time has seen the consolidation of some party shop clubs, an
improvement in the sale of party literature, a greater utilization of the Michigan
Worker as the major instrument for the concentration work. Among our com-
rades in auto, there is higher morale, and greater confidence in the determina-
tion of the State leadership of the party to decisively influence the auto workers.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5617
Now on page 5 of the same resolution :
For making the Michigan Worker the main mass ideological instrument of
carrying tlirough the concentration objectives of the party. In the past 3 months
the concept of the Michigan Worker as the mass ideological instrument for carry-
ing party policy to the auto workers has slipped into the background of our prac-
tical work.
I will ask yon if the Michigan Worker referred to in this resolution
by the state Communist Party of Michigan is the same Michigan
Worker described in the shipping receipt which you are alleged to
have signed as consignee and which has been produced in this room as
evidence.
Mr. Fox. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Doyle. Well, apparently you don't care about helping a com-
mittee of your own Congress to learn anything about the functioning
of the Communist Party in this area.
(At this point ISIr. Fox conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Doyle. So I have no otlier questions to ask.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Any further questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Witness dismissed.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Geneva Borod, will you come forward, please?
Mr. Clardy. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Borod. I do.
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated. Will counsel identify herself for
the record?
Mrs. Borod. I would like to make a request that photographers do
not take pictures during the hearing.
Mr. Clardy. I can't hear you.
Mrs. BoROD. I would like to request that photographers do not take
pictures during the hearing.
Mr. Clardy. Very well.
Mrs. Borod. I would like to make a further request
Mr. Clardy. Let us get counsel identified on the record first, if you
don't mind.
Mr. Wistrand. Bruce Wistrand.
Mr. Clardy. What was your further request?
Mrs. BoROD. I would like to make a further request that those
photographers of the State police and the FBI identify themselves,
all those photographers not gentlemen and ladies of the press.
Mr. Clardy. Well, there happens to be someone here from a very
illegitimate publication published and put out by the Communist
Party. So long as we permit that subversive organization to have
representation present, I will permit the law-enforcing agencies of
this country to take pictures, to listen to the testimony, and to do
that which will protect America from the danger of a Communist
revolution.
Mrs. Borod. I do not know that any publication is illegal.
Mr. Clardy. That is all we will entertain. Your request is denied
emphatically and underscored.
Mrs. Borod. May I give the reason for my request ?
5618 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardt. Yoli may not because it has been declined. Will
you proceed, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ?
TESTIMONY OF GENEVA BOROD, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL,
BRUCE WISTRAND
Mrs. BoROD. Geneva Borod.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that your married name ?
Mrs. Borod. Yes, it is.
Mr. Tamsnner. What was your maiden name ?
Mrs. Borod. Ohnsted.
Mr. Tavenner. B-o-r-o-d?
Mrs. Borod. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you born ?
IMrs. Borod. I was born on a farm on tlie tip of the Tittabawassee
River in Saginaw County, on a farm that was settled and cleared of
its land by my great grandfather who came to this country, along with
my other forefathers, and millions of other Americans who escaped
persecution of committees such as this.
Mr. Doyle. They came, didn't they, before the United States was
a government? They had no knowledge of any committees such
as this when they came to this country, your forefathers.
ISIrs. Borod. The inquisitions originated throughout history in
the 1 7th century in England, inquisitions of Joan of Arc, of Salem,
these—
Mr. Clardy. Witness, we have been charged with a lot of crimes,
but never with lynching Joan of Arc before. Will you do something
thnt I am sure wnll be hel])ful to the committee and s]:)ell
Mrs. Borod. I request photoo-raphers do not talce
IMr. Clardy. Will you spell that difficult word, Tittabawassee, for
our reporter, because I am sure as a stranger to Michigan and probably
a nonflshing one, she couldn't spell that. Will you spell it?
Mrs. Borod. I think that she can find that in the dictionary.
Mr. Clardy. Can you spell it for us ? Did I pronounce it correct-
ly ? I know how to spell it but I just want to be sure that we get it
correct.
Mrs. Borod. I don't know if you said it right or not. Say it again.
Mr. Clardy. Pronounce it again so I will be sure.
Mrs. Borod. Tittabawassee.
Mr. Clardy. I will spell it for you. Miss Reporter, after it is over.
She won't cooperate on this. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mrs. BoROD. Flint, Michigan,
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Flint ?
Mrs. BoROD. Approximately 61/4 to 7 years.
Mr. Tavenner. '\^nien did you come to Flint to make it your resi-
dence ?
Mrs. Borod. In the fall of 1942.
Mr. Tamsnner. 1942?
Mrs. Borod. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Had yon lived here constantly since 1942?
Mrs. Borod. No, I have not.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5619
Mr. Tavenner. When did you return to Flint to make it your
residence ?
Mrs. BoROD. I returned to Flint to make it my residence in 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. What month during 1949 ?
Mrs. BoROD. August, I think.
Mr. Tavenner. August of 1949. Did you return to Flint for em-
ployment ?
Mrs. BoROD. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of the employment?
Mrs. BoROD. I came to get a job.
Mr. Taatinner. What kind of a job ?
Mrs. BoROD. Any job I could get that would give me a wage.
Mr. Ta\^nner. What kind of a job did you get ?
Mrs. BoROD. I hired into AC Spark Plug, division of General
Motors.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you obtain the position in AC Spark
Plug?
Mrs. BoROD. I obtained it in the fall of 1942. I worked for 18
months there, and then I returned to the job at AC in the fall of 1949.
Mr. Ta^^nner. How long did you retain that position? Are you
still employed there ?
Mrs. Borod. I am.
Mr. Ta^^nner. Have you engaged in any other occupation in Flint ?
Mrs. Borod. Any other occupation ? I don't understand what you
mean.
]Mr. Tavenner. Yes, any other work besides that. For instance,
have you taught — have you engaged in teaching at any time since you
have been in Flint ?
(At this point IMrs. Borod conferred with ]\Ir. Wistrand.)
Mrs. BoROD. I don't understand.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have a teacher's certificate ?
Mrs. Borod. I certainly have never taught or had a teacher's cer-
tificate.
Mr. Clardy. I can't hear you.
Mrs. BoROD. I have never had a teacher's certificate.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Have you engaged in teaching ?
Mrs. BoROD. I have never
(At this point Mrs. Borod conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. BoROD. That is a very vague question.
Mr. Clardy. Wliat is vague about it ?
Mrs. BoROD. I told you I have not a teacher's certificate.
Mr. Clardy. Well, the kind of teaching he has in mind wouldn't
require a teacher's certificate. Please, no demonstration.
(At this point Mrs. Borod conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. BoROD. What kind of teaching have you in mind then ?
Mr. Clardy. Never mind.
Mr. Tavenner. What kind have you done ?
Mrs. BoROD. The things I have said, the things that I believe in,
are my business. I think there is freedom to speak in this country
and freedom to express your views and to listen to others.
Mr. Clardy. It has been exercised readily in our hearings, I must
say. Now, the question was quite simple. Come back to it again
because I direct you to answer it.
5620 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. Have you engaged in teaching of any character
since you have been living in Flint ?
(At this point Mrs. Borod conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. BoROD. I can't answer the question unless I know specifically
what you are speaking of. If it has any relevancy to this hearing —
if you ask me specific questions as to what you are talking about, I
will try to answer them.
Mr. Clakdy. That is as specific as it is possible to make it, unless
you do not understand what the word "teaching" means.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, maybe I possibly can help the witness.
Regardless of the fact that you say you don't have a teacher's certi-
ficate, have you enjoyed the privilege of teaching any group, any
study group or any research group or any class, studying government
or social science or philosophy of the Communist Party or the Demo-
cratic or Republican Party or the science of government in any way?
Perhaps that will help you.
(At this point Mrs. Borod conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Doyle. I don't know. I think that probably helps you — either
for pay or without pay as a volunteer worker or instructor.
Mrs. BoROD. That is terribly vague to ask me a lot of questions
and
Mr. Doyle. I tried to get across to you what the word "teaching"
meant
Mrs. BoROD. If you have something in mind specifically, I would
ask that you say what you seem to be trying to suggest.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, let me interject just a moment. You are
obviously attempting to fence with Mr. Doyle. Now you understand
perfectly well what he was asking you because he explained it in detail.
You may, if you wish, continue to exhibit the attitude that you have
from the moment that you came forward, but I suggest that it would
serve your own purpose much better if you didn't pretend ignorance
as to the meaning of that last question. Now, suppose you answer.
Mrs. Borod. Is teaching of anything subversive or unlawful or
criminal ?
Mr. Clakdy. You say you have been teaching that?
Mrs. Borod. No, I did not.
Mr. Clardy. Well, I wasn't sure.
Mrs. Borod. I asked the question.
Mr. Clardy. Well, we ask the questions, if you don't mind, and you
answer them. Now, Mr. Doyle's question is perfectly plain. Please
answer.
Mrs. BoROD. Are you directing me to answer the question?
Mr. Clardy. Yes.
Mrs. BoROD. Well, I will have to refuse to answer the question
because this question is taking away the rights guaranteed to me by
the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to freedom of speech and all
the other rights under the first amendment, and will try to take away
the rights given me under the fifth amendment which says I do not
have to testify against myself.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, the witness' answer verifies my own
thought, that the witness thoroughly understood the purport of my
question and did at all times, even before she conferred with counsel,
which you always have the right to do, of course. May I say to you
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5621
Madam Witness, I just wanted to make this clear, as a member of this
committee I take this position as an American citizen and as a mem-
ber of this committee of Congress, so that you are claimini^ the fifth
amendment or any portion of the Constitution to get out of cooperat-
ing; with the committee — I take this position, that I will fight for your
rights to differ with me and to express your own viewpoints and appre-
ciate your own philosophy and act as you want in my country as long
as you do it within the four corners of the Constitution of the United
States.
I don't know how any person could possibly be any broader in their
concept of your rights as an American citizen than that. But I am
aware that in this country the American Communist Party is part and
parcel of a subversive conspiracy, and on that
Mrs. BoROD. I think McCarthyism is the present danger to the
United States. I think this is what should be investigated, the things
going on
Mr. Doyle. This committee has no
Mrs. BoROD. In Washington.
Mr. Clardy. Pardon me. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. I just want to make it clear to you that which you
already know. I just want to emphasize it. This committee has no
connection with any committee of the Senate, and I just wart to make
that clear to you and everyone in the hearing room. This committee
has no connection with any committee in the Senate, so when you try
to prejudice other people against this committee by saying just what
you have, you are simply not playing cricket.
Mr. Clardy. You are voicing, as you well know, the Communist
Party line, and
Mrs. BoROD, You are making an assumption.
Mr. Clardy. And anything you may say the public generally will
understand.
Mrs. BoROD. The public generally is against McCarthy.
Mr. Velde. No question is pending. Will you proceed, Mr. Taven-
ner, and I suggest that you ask her one question with respect to her
participation in politics a few years ago.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you desire that question asked now ?
Mr. Clardy. I think I would like to have it asked right now.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I think, Mr. Chairman — I don't mean to disagree
with my subcommittee chairman, j^et I think I do with the form of
your question, sir.
Mr. Clardy. I haven't asked it, sir. I am suggesting that he ask
the question.
Mr. Doyle. I know, but when you say a question as to her po-
litics
Mr. Clardy. No, her participation, and it will become apparent in
a moment what we have in mind. I think you will agree with me when
the question is asked.
Will you ask that, Mr. Tavenner? Would you prefer I ask it?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
I desire to hand the witness a document and ask her to examine it.
(At tliis point Mrs. Borod conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
ilr. Tavenner. Will you examine the document that is before you,
please ?
5622 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. BoROD. I see a document. That is yovir evidence. You are
presenting it. I think that you are the one responsible for reading it.
Mr. Claedy. Hold up, Mr. Tavenner. Witness, are you unable to
comprehend the fact that
(At this point Mrs. Borod conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Clardy. That sort of attitude in the face of a committee of
Congress is contemptuous in the extreme. You should cooperate more
than that when we ask you merely to look at a document on which it
unquestionably appears that your photograph and your name is
printed. Now, will you do what Mr. Tavenner requested, please?
Will you comply with Mr. Tavenner's request and identify that
document ?
Mrs. BoROD. I will refuse to answer any question regarding this
document.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Mr. Tavenner, I suggest
Mrs. BoROD. Under the rights given me under the fifth amendment
and all the other amendments.
Mr. Clardy. We understood you were invoking all your rights.
Mr. Tavenner, will you take possession of that document and put
the pertinent parts into the record right now ?
Mr. Doyle. May I have the question which was asked the witness
read?
(The question was read by the reporter as follows :)
Will you examine the document that is before you, please?
Mr. Clardy. She told Mr. Tavenner, as I recall, to do it himself, and
I have reproved her —
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I move that the witness be directed to
answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. Well, I did once. I do it again. Will you examine
the document?
Mrs. BoROD. I refuse.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Borod Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Clardy. It will be so received.
(The document entitled "Communist Candidates in Michigan,"
marked "Borod Exhibit No. 1," was received in evidence.) ^
Mrs. BoROD. I object that this be received in evidence.
Mr. Clardy. Well, how do you know what you are objecting to if
you do not look at it ?
Mr. Doyle. She looked at it.
Mr. Clardy. Well, she claims she wasn't, at any rate.
Mr. Doyle. Manifestly she did.
Mr. Clardy. I think she did, too; that is why I think she was in
contempt of Congress when she said what she did.
Proceed.
Mrs. Borod. You have already requested that this be put in without
even reading it, without even saying what it is or anything.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, I have. It is in the record.
^ Retained In committee files.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5623
Mr. Tavenner. Maybe we will get it read. The document, Mr.
Chairman, is a flyer entitled :
"Communist Candidates in Michigan. For United States Senator, Hngo
Beiswenger, veteran ; Abner Berry for secretary of state ; Phillip Raymond for
attorney general ; Geneva Olmsted for State treasurer.
In d3, describing each of these individuals the photograph appears
(At this point Mrs. Borod conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Tavenner. Under the heading in black type of Geneva Olmsted
for State treasurer appears the following language :
Served in a naval hospital in American theater for 18 months, having been
discharged May 2, 1946. She is a native of Michigan and was educated in the
State public schools. Miss Olmsted worked for a while in a war plant and
attended art classes in New York before her naval service. She is unmarried
and lives at present in Flint.
At the bottom :
Vote for Communists and labor-backed candidates November 5.
Now, were you a candidate for State treasurer of the State of
Michigan on the Communist Party ticket ?
Mrs. BoKOD. Are you asking this question based on this evidence?
Mr. Tavenner. I am asking you the question.
Mr. Clardy. Did you complete your question, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. It is a little difficult to hear, and I wanted to be sure.
Will you answer the question ?
Mrs. BoROD. Is this a direction ?
Mr. Clardy. I am asking you at the moment.
Mrs. BoROD. Under the rules of procedure of this committee there
are no rules of evidence. In other words, anything can be used as evi-
dence, and I say that this is not in any manner evidence here.
Mr. Clardy. Are you refusing to answer ?
Mrs. BoROD. I refuse to answer anything about this evidence that
you have
Mr. Clardy. Did the description of the candidate read by Mr.
Tavenner accurately describe you as to name, experience, and the other
things mentioned ?
Mrs. BoROD. I refuse to answer that question under the fifth amend-
ment and under the first amendment, and the other amendments
guaranteed by the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Clardy. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the
period of time covered by the exhibit ?
Mrs. Borod. If this is true, that this took place, why was there no
publicity in the big papers, to my knowledge? Why is this being
brought up now such a longtime later ?
]\Ir. Clardy. Answer the question, please.
Mrs. BoROD. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Mr. Tavenner, we have reached the point
where in just a moment I shall recess. I can't do that without making
this observation : All our forebears, including mine, I believe, came
from across the water. You have no especial claim to distinction on
that account.
We will now recess until 1 : 20.
( Wliereupon, at 12 : 02 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 1 : 30 p. m. of the same day.)
5624 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
AFTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 1 : 30 p. m. of the same day, the proceedings were
resumed, Representatives Harold H. Velde, Kit Clardy, and Clyde
Doyle being present.)
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session, please.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Borod.
TESTIMONY OF GENEVA BOEOD, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL,
BRUCE WISTRAND— Resumed
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Borod, you stated that your first employment
in Flint began in 1942. I do not believe that we asked you how long
you remained employed in Flint at that time. Will you tell us, please?
Mrs. Borod. Eighteen months.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the month of the year then in 1944
when your employment terminated ?
Mrs. Borod. Is that relevant ?
Mr. Clardy. Yes, that is a relevant question. "Will you answer it,
please ?
Mrs. BoROD. I think it was April.
Mr. Tavenner. You indicated that you left Flint at that time.
Where did you go, please ?
Mrs. Borod. I attended a few months of school at Art Students
League.
Mr. Tavenner. In New York City ?
Mrs. BoROD. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Then after the completion of the work at the New
York art school what did you do ?
Mrs. BoROD. I joined the United States Navy.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you serve while a member of the United
States Navy ?
Mrs. Borod. Quite a few places.
Mr. Ta%^nner. Well, how long were you in the United States Navy?
Mrs. Borod. Eighteen months.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. What was the month of your discharge ?
Mrs. Borod. May 2.
;Mr, Ta\'enner. What year ?
Mrs. Borod. 1946. -v t, o
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become employed shortly after that?
;Mrs. Borod. No, I did not.
]\f r. Ta\'enner. When did you become employed again ?
Mrs. Borod. I don't remember the exact time.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Wliat was your next employment ?
Mrs. Borod. I worked in a little restaurant for a while.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Wliere ?
Mrs. Borod. In Ann Arbor. <. ^ r^
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend school at any place after 1946 when
you got out of the Naw ?
(At this point Mrs. Borod conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Borod. I attended the University of Michigan.
Mr. Ta w.NNER. Did you attend any other school besides the Univer-
feitv of Michigan?
Mrs. Borod. I attended Lamme School of Photography.
COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5625
Mr. Tavenner. Where.
Mrs. BoROD. In Denver, Colo.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you attend that school? Over what
period of time, and the dates, please ?
Mrs.BoROD. The term of 1948, 1947-48.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that after you had attended school at the Uni-
versity of Michigan ?
Mrs. Borod. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you complete your work in Denver ?
Mrs. BoROD. 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. What time during the year, I mean ?
Mrs. BoRGD. I think it was the end of February. Is this relevant?
I can't remember the exact time.
Mr. Tavenner. You think in February 1948. Wliere did you go
after completion of your work in February 1948 ?
Mrs. BoROD. I came back to Michigan.
Mr. Tavenner. What part of Michigan ?
Mrs. BoROD. I think
(At this point Mrs. Borod conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Borod. I don't recall exactly. I know I came back to this part
of the country in 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by "this part of the country" ?
Mrs. Borod. Michigan, the Midwest.
Mr, Tavenner. Michigan is a very large part, I found out. What
part of ISIichigan ?
Mrs. BoROD. Well, I don't see what is relevant about this. What
specifically do you want to know ? Are you still asking me about my
education ?
Mr. Tavenner. I am asking where you came to in Michigan upon
completion of your work at the University of Denver. Will you
answer the question, please ?
Mrs. BoROD. I remained in Chicago for a while and then came to
Michigan.
Mr, Tavenner. How long were you in Chicago ?
Mrs, BoROD, For about a sunnner.
Mr, Tavenner. The summer of 1948 ?
Mrs. BoROD. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you employed there at that time ?
Mrs, BoROD. I was.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your employment?
Mrs, BoROD. I worked in a hospital. I was working in a hospital
where hospitalization is needed, and I want it known that I am very
much in disfavor of the vote that the committee chairman took in
denying
Mr. Tavenner, That is not at all in response.
Mrs. BoROD. Extra benefits to hospitalization.
Mr. Tavenner, It is not an answer to my question.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, confine yourself, please, to answering the
question. No diatribes about anything or anybody is proper here.
Mr, Dotle. Mr. Chairman, I might ask the witness if she thinks
that last remark is relevant.
Mrs, Borod. I think it is.
Mr, Clardy. Well, yours is indeed a peculiar form of logic. It is
new to me, but we will pass that. Now proceed to give us the answer.
5626 COMMUNIST ACTWITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. BoROD. The answer to what ?
Mr. Clardy. The question that was propounded. You started off
in the opposite direction from an answer. I am trying to bring you
back to tlie liomeplate so you can start out to make the circuit again.
Repeat the question, Mr. Tavenner, so she will not be in doubt.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your employment in
Chicago?
Mrs. BoROD. I worked in a hospital as a
Mr. Clardy. What was the name of the hospital ?
Mrs. BoROD. As a corpswoman, working as a hosj^ital aid in the
hospital.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the hospital ?
Mrs. BoROD. The hospital attached to the University of Michi-
gan — University of Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you left Chicago in August 1948. Did you
then return to the State of Michigan ?
Mrs. BoROD. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat part of Michigan did you return to? IVliat
place in Michigan ?
Mrs. BoROD. I looked about in various places in Michigan, looking
for a job.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what place
Mrs. BoROD. I looked everywhere in Detroit and in Flint and in
Saginaw and everywhere for a job, and because I was a woman, I was
denied a job in the places where I searched because they were not
hiring women
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question ?
Mrs. BoROD. Because of the discriminatory policies against women.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please. To what
place in Michigan did you return when you left Chicago?
Mrs. BoROD. I told you.
Mr. Tavenner. Where ?
Mrs. BoROD. Detroit, Flint, and many other places, searching for
a job.
Mr. Clardy. Wliere did you settle down ?
Mrs. BoROD. I did receive a job in AC at General Motors in Flint.
Mr. Doyle. Wasn't there discrimination there ?
Mrs. BoROD. That is true. There is discrimination against women
there. All other GM shops the people make 27 cents an hour at least
more than the women in AC.
Mr. Doyle. You got a job there, didn't you ?
Mrs. BoROD. That is why you have called me up here because I am
against the discriminatory wage policy at AC where General Motors
makes in the department where I work off of about 1,500 women
$842,000 a year, off these women, some $500 a year each individual.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Doyle, I think you should withdraw the question,
and I will strike out the answer.
Mrs. BoROD. I object to this. This is part of the record.
Mr. Clardy. Never mind, witness.
Mrs. BoROD. This is why you have called me up here.
Mr. Doyle. Evidently the witness is ready to make a number of
speeches.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5627
Mrs. BoROD. I say the committee has come here at the time of our
union elections to disrupt the union elections, to make communism
the issue when the issue in the union elections is raising the rates of
the workers and stopping this discriminatory policy of GM against
the workers in AC.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Now, proceed, Mr. Tavenner. She has
her little speech.
Mr. Tavenner. You state you settled in Flint when you obtained
the position at AC. I think you said your employment at AC began
in August 1949. That is correct, isn't it ?
Mrs. BoROD. As far as I remember, that is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you in Flint before you received
your employment in August 1949 ?
Mrs. BoROD. Oh, about a month or a few weeks.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you returned to Flint sometime in the neigh-
borhood of July or August 1949 ?
Will you tell the committee, please, where you were between August
of 1948 and July or August of 1949 ?
(At this point Mrs. Borod conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. BoROD. What was the date that you asked me where I was?
Mr. Tavenner. I asked you where you were between August 1948
when you left Chicago and August 1949 when you became employed
at Flint.
Mrs. BoROD. Is this relevant to this hearing ?
Mr. Tavenner. Please answer the question.
Mrs. BoROD. But I don't see how it can be possibly relevant to this
investigation.
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. BoROD. I was in Michigan.
Mr. Tavenner. Where ?
Mr. Clardy. Where ?
(At this point Mrs. Borod conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Borod. I think I will refuse to answer that question because
I feel that this committee is trying to bring something up here involv-
ing my unemployment, that I was unemployed, looking for a job, and
I stayed in Detroit, in Flint, in Saginaw, at my home, searching for a
job during this period, and that is all I can say about it. If you want
to be specific, then ask the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you at that time, that is, between August 1948
and August 1949, married ?
Mrs. Borod, I was not.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of your marriage ?
Mrs. Borod. I was married to my husband on New Year's Eve.
Mr. Tavenner. Of what year ?
Mrs. Borod. 314 years ago.
Mr; Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Borod. As I answered before, I will have to refuse to answer
that question again.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time ?
Mrs. Borod. And I will refuse to answer that question the same as
before. Do you want me to give my reasons ?
5628 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. If you rely on the same reasons, it is not necessary.
Mrs. BoROD. But there are other reasons, too, besides the first and
the fifth.
Mr. Claudy. Are they constitutional reasons, or are they in the
category of these other extraneous remarks you have been making?
Mrs. BoROD. I don't think any of the remarks I have been making
have been extraneous. This is a hearing.
Mr. Clardy. I didn't expect you to agree with me, but you may
take my word for it, they were. Do you have any other constitutional
objections to raise other than those already put in the record?
Mrs. Borod. At this time I will refuse to answer on the grounds
that I previously used.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner, I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Do you have any, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. No questions.
Mr. Clardy. I have none either. Witness dismissed. Call your
next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Howard Foster.
Mr. Clardy. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Foster. I do.
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated. Will counsel identify himself for
the record ?
Mr. Wistrand. Bruce Wistrand.
TESTIMONY OF HOWARD FOSTER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, BRUCE WISTRAND
Mr. Ta\'enner. Will you state your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Foster. My name is Howard Foster.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Foster ?
Mr. Foster. Oklahoma City, Okla., in 1911.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Foster. 2609 Flushing Koad, Flint, Mich.^
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Flint, Mich. ?
Mr. Foster. I have lived in Flint, Mich., since the year June 1927.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your for-
mal educational training has been ?
Mr. Foster. My formal educational training is grade school, high
school, and 2 years at Flint Junior College.
Mr. Tavenner. Where are you now employed ?
Mr. Foster. I am employed in Chevrolet Motor Co.
Mr, Tavenner. How long have you been employed at Chevrolet
Motor Co. ?
Mr. Fosi-ER. I have been employed at Chevrolet Motor Co. for 20
years.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Foster, did you attend a conference at 3810
Brentwood, Michigan, with John L. McManus, of the National Guard-
ian, nnd Mr. Max Dean ?
Mr. Foster. Would you repeat all that again, please, sir?
Mr. Tavenner. Would you read that?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5629
(The question was read by the reporter as follows :)
Mr. Foster, did you attend a conference at 3810 Brentwood, Michigan, with
John L. McManus, of the National Guardian, and Mr. Max Dean?
(At this point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, that address is not familiar to me. I know
notliinpj about it.
Mr. Clardy. I can't hear you, witness. It is a little difficult. Hold
it just a minute until that truck j^ets away. Now repeat it.
Mr. Foster. I know nothinjr about that address, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever met Mr. John L. McManus?
(At tliis point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, I don't recon;nize the name.
Mr. Clardy. Did you ever hear the name before ?
Mr. Foster. I don't believe I have, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you take part in a campai<]^n of any character
in connection with the trial and sentencing of the Rosenbergs?
(At this point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand. )
Mr. Foster. Sir, the question is too loosely defined. I don't under-
stand what you mean by "campaif^jn."
Mr. Tavenner. The committee is informed that there was in
existence an organization known as the Committee to Secure Justice
in the Rosenberg Case. Were you a member of that committee?
(At tliis point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, do I understand you ask me if I am a member of
the committee?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Foster. I am not a member of any committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you participate in the work of that committee?
(At tliis point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, what is the name of that committee ?
Mr. Tavenner. The Committee to Secure Justice in the Rosen-
berg Case.
Mr. Foster. To the best of my knowledge I don't believe I ever
heard of such a committee. It is a possibility, but I don't recall it.
However, I am not part of that committee.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, you say "I am not." Were you ever a mem-
ber of a committee seeking to do something in connection with the
Rosenberofs or with their trial, regardless of what name may have
been used ?
Mr. Foster. I am not a member of any committee —
Mr. Clardy. My question is not whether you are now a member.
I am saying, Have you ever been a member of a group or committee,
official, or unofficial, seekincr to do something in connection with the
Rosenbergs, their trial, or their sentence ?
(At this point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, I don't understand your question.
Mr. Clardy. Well, I will explain it. You know who the Rosen-
bergs were, do you not?
Mr. FosTi<R. Yes; I do know who the Rosenbergs were.
Mr. Clardy. You do know that tliere was agitation carried on, a
campaign carried on, by certain people in this country, imploring the
President to step in and imploring us to take action with regard to tlie
48861 — 54 — pt. 9 4
5630 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
courts and do various other tilings to prevent the execution of tlie
Rosenbergs. You know that happened, don't you?
Mr. Foster. That is correct; it did happen.
Mr. Clardy. Did you take part in any way whatsoever, insignifi-
cant or large, in connection with any of those inoveinents in the Rosen-
berg matter? Do you understand that?
Mr. Foster. You mean, did 1 write to you about the Rosenbergs?
Mr. Clardy. In any way ; did you write, did you belong to a com-
mittee, did you do anything.
Mr. Foster. I don't recall having wrote anything or belonged to
any committees in connection with the Rosenbergs, but if you want
it in the record, I am against capital punishment, and I am against —
well, until I am satisfied in my own mind that people are guilty, I
don't think there should be any haste in putting people to death.
Mr. Clardy. Well, I wouldn't want to hasten someone to the gal-
lows if there was any doubt about it. I could join you on that, but
that wasn't my question. My question was, Have you taken any part
in any of the activities that revolved around the Rosenberg trial and
their execution?
Mr. Foster. Sir, you will just have to be specific. I don't recall
having wrote an article or belonging to a committee to do anything
for the Rosenbergs. I don't believe there is anything on public record.
However, you should be specific on it. To be quite frank v:ith you,
that from time to time I have — I have even visited the Sixth Congres-
sional offices in Washington at times under your predecessor. I used
to carry on correspondence with that office on many things.
Mr. Clardy. Well, did you carry on any with regard to the Rosen-
bergs ?
Mr. Foster. Sir, my sympathies are with the Rosenbergs.
INIr. Clardy. I guessed that.
Mr. Foster. Specifically, I don't recall having done anything.
Mr. Clardy. Then would it be a fair statement — you can agree or
disagree with this — for me to say that you have had no connection
with the Rosenberg issue, remote or otherwise? Is that fair?
(At this point Mr. Foster conferred Avith Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, that question is so vague I can't answer it.
Mr. Clardy. Well, I am afraid that your idea of vagueness doesn't
coincide with my own, but I will put it another way : Would it be
fair to say that you have belonged to no committee, that you have
joined no movement, that you have taken part in no activity looking
toward the securing of clemency for the Rosenbergs?
Mr. Foster. Sir, do you have anything to contradict m}^ statement
here ?
Mr. Clardy. You haven't said anything for me to contradict. I
am merely trying to find out whether that is the fact or whether it
isn't a fact.
Mr. Foster. Sir, you asked me if I belonged to a committee for the
protection of the Rosenbergs. I have said I have not. You asked me
if I worked with such a committee. I have not. I volunteered on my
own statement to say that I am in sympathy with the Rosenbergs.
Mr. Clardy. Very well, Mr. Tavenner. There is no need of wast-
ing more time on that.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Bolza Baxter ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5631
(At this point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, this question — if I answered this question and
waived my rights guaranteed me under the Constitution of the United
States — this is a leading question designed for me to waive my rights
guaranteed to me under the Bill of Riglits and the Constitution of the
United States, and for the record in future references here I don't
intend to answer any question that will lead to the ultimate conclu-
sion that I in any way advocate the destruction of the United States
by force and violence, and that is the opinion of the Attorney Creneral,
the opinion spoken of here, and I have to protect myself in that ulti-
mate conclusion.
Mr. Clardy. Are you declining to answer the question as to whether
or not you know Bolza Baxter ?
Mr. Foster. Sir, I will have to decline on the basis
Mr. Clardy. No; you don't have to decline. My question is — do
you decline ?
Mr. Foster. Yes, sir ; I absolutely decline. I absolutely decline to
answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. On the ground of the fifth and the other amendments
that you have mentioned ?
Mr. Foster. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you in 1948, along with Bolza Baxter, engage
in the distribution of Communist Party documents and pamphlets in
Flint?
(At this point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, this is part of the same question, and I will have
to stand on my constitutional grounds.
Mr. Clardy. Again, witness, I should point out, you do not have
to. You have the privilege of doing it or not.
Mr. Foster. Sir, speaking from my side of the fence, I absolutely
have to.
Mr. Clardy. Well, for your own protection I should advise you
that that is not a clear statement that you are invoking it, and I am
trying my best to let you see that you must say that you are invoking
it if you want the protection of it. If you want to let it stand that way
-after this, it is all right with me.
Mr. Foster. I am invoking the privilege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Very well.
Mr. Tavenner. The witness, Mrs. Churchill, in the course of her
testimony here yesterday, identified you as a member of the Chev-
rolet Club of the Communist Party. Was she telling the committee
the truth or not in so identifying you ?
Mr. Foster. Sir, this question is in the category with the previously
asked question, and I stand on my privileges of the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party and
affiliated with the Chevrolet group of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Foster. Sir, I listened to the testimony of this lady yesterday,
and I have listened to the trend of these hearings here so "far, and I
read the headlines in the paper where you don't speak of people work-
ing in a factory, but people as being members of a union. I spent 20
years, perhaps the most difficult years and the best years of my life,
building a union, and I don't intend to let anybody get the hooks into
that union and tear the guts out of it.
jn'
5632 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you spend any part of those years in
building the Communist Party within your union ?
Mr. Foster. Sir, that is a leading question. To answer that ques-
tion I would relinquish my rights under the Constitution of the United
States, and I refuse to answer it on that basis.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware of the Communist Party as indi-
cated by Johnson exhibit No. 1 to concentrate in General Motors in
the work of the Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, what is Johnson exhibit No. 1 ?
Mr. Tavenner. Johnson Exhibit No, 1 is a resolution of the state
organization of the Communist Party for the State of Michigan which
was introduced in evidence at Detroit and given the title Johnson
exhibit No. 1.
It is a resolution on concentration for discussion at all clubs, sec-
tions, commissions, and departments of the Communist Party. It
proceeds to explain the importance of concentration in Flint, in Gen-
eral Motors, and in Ford in Wayne County, and accompanying it is
the exhibit No. 2 which is the plan in detail for the accomplishing of
that purpose within the Dearborn auto section, and the testimony
has bsen that a somewhat similar plan existed but the committee does
not have it in its possession relating to operations within General
Motors here in Flint. I think that is a fair general description of
the document.
(At this point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, I am going to invoke the rights of the fifth amend-
ment on this question and refuse to answer it.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Foster. Sir, this is the same question that is being asked in
several different ways, and I am not going to put myself in position
where I am going to fall under the opinion of the Attorney General of
the United States or any future laws that may come up. I invoke the
rights under the fifth amendment of the Constitution and refuse to
answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. I think 1 understand — can you hear me, Mr. Foster ?
Mr. Foster. Yes, sir.
(At this point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Doyle. I will wait until you are through conferring with your
counsel. We are always glad to have counsel present. I wish to finish
my statement. I say the committee is always glad to have counsel
present with every witness ; in fact, our rules and our practice is to al-
ways welcome counsel, so we are glad that each witness here in these
hearings is having counsel. Being a member of the bar myself, I think
I appreciate the importance of having counsel present for the witness
if he wants to. I think I understood you to say, Mr. Foster, that you
have been in the union movement 20 years, is that correct?
Mr. Foster. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I want to compliment you, and I think I heard you
say, too, that you were not going to let anyone get their hooks
Mr. Foster. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Into the guts of the union movement, is that correct ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5633
Mr. Foster. I believe my statement was that I wouldn't permit
anybody to get their hooks — use me to get their hooks into the union
and tear the guts out of it.
Mr. Doyle. I want to compliment you on that, too. I agree with
you. Of course the evidence shows clearly before this committee and
before Congress that the Communist Party in America is trying to get
the guts of the union movement. You know that, don't you? You
hear my question, and you understand it manifestly.
Mr. Foster. Yes, sir, I hear your question.
Mr. Doyle. Answer that question, please.
(At this point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, in this instance I shall use the fifth amendment to
the Constitution.
Mr. Doyle. I am sorry ; I don't hear you.
Mr. Foster. Sir, I am going to invoke the rights under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution to answer this question.
Mr. Clardy. You mean you are going to invoke the fifth amendment
and refuse to say whether or not you know that the Communist Party
is determinedly trying to destroy the unions of this country?
(At this point Mr. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Foster. Sir, as an attorney you know that no inferences can be
drawn from the failure of a witness to testify.
Mr. Doyle. I wish to agree with the witness. That certainly is
the decision of our highest courts, and I wish the witness to under-
stand that as a member of this committee I draw no inference if a
man in good faith pleads the fifth amendment or pleads his consti-
tutional rights, but may I say, sir, I judge you are a member of one
of the great labor unions, are you not ?
Mr. Foster. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I am not asking you to tell me which. We aren't
interested in that, but Mr. Chairman, in view of this witness' answer,
and he is engaged in the manufacture of automobiles manifestly, I
have had given to me a copy of a news release, Walter P. Eeuther,
president, and Mr. Mazey, secretary treasurer, and John Livingston;
Richard Gosser, vice president, UAW-CIO. Manifestly this is so
long that we can't get it all in the record.
Mr. Foster. Sir, it is a good release. I think it should be read into
the record. It is a very good release.
Mr. DoYT.E. I am going to read a part that possibly applies to you.
I wish we had time to read the whole thing and print it because this
committee is after the opinion of every patriotic American, may I
say. We may disagree with him, but he has the right, in my book —
any citizen has the right in my book to disagree with me as long as
he and I both stay within our constitutional rights. That means we
have to stay within the law, doesn't it?
Mr. Foster. That is right, sir.
Mr. Doyle. That is correct. Reading on page 4 of this — it is a long
article, 9 pages — I quote :
Each witness appearing before these committees —
referring to this committee and similar committees
mnst, of course, make his own individual decision as to the course of action
which he will follow in his testimony. This is a matter of individual conscience
and judgment.
5634 COMMXTNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Now notice this :
We in the UAW-CIO sincerely urge any M-itness called before the House Un-
American Activities Committee, if it is at all possible to do so, to avoid using
the privilege of the fifth amendment.
Now, that is a news release as of May 2. I have a couple more para-
graphs. On page 2 :
We have no quarrel with the professed purposes of the House Committee on
Un-American Activities.
I read on page 6 :
Protecting the good name and reputation of interested people and their fam-
ilies does not absolve the former Communist from his patriotic duty as a citizen
to testify fully of his firsthand knowledge of the names and activities of any
Communist Party functionaries or of any illegal activities, any evidence of
conspiracy to overthrow the Government by force and violence or evidence of
a nature that would serve to strengthen the security of our Nation, while at
the same time refusing to testify in any matter of which he has no direct or
firsthand knowledge or any matter that happened so far in the past that his
memory cannot be relied upon with any degree of accuracy.
(At this point Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the
hearing room.)
Mr. Doyle (reading) :
UAW-CIO, through years of practical experience in the forefront of the fight
against communism, fully recognizes and understands the danger of the Com-
munist world conspiracy. We have supported and shall continue to support
every effort of our Government, consistent with democratic traditions, to meet
this threat. We shall, however, resist every effort on the part of the apostles of
fear, hatred, and hysteria who would panic America into action which would
sacrifice the very beliefs we are dedicated to preserve. Nothing is more destruc-
tive of our basic spiritual and political freedoms than the dangerous theory the
means justify the ends. This is a moral basis upon which communism builds its
power. As a free people we must demonstrate the courage and good sense to
resist the use of Communist and totalitarian methods under the guise of fighting
communism. We must remain true to our belief in the worth and dignity of
the individual, and we must continue to believe him to be innocent until he is
proven guilty through due process.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I just wish to emphasize this at that point: I
want this audience and this witness, and he will hear me state that
this committee recognizes that statement by Mr. Eeuther as funda-
mental law, that every man is presumed to be innocent until he is proven
guilty, but right at that point I wish to say that this committee is not
hnding any person guilty, nor are we trying to. Our committee is to
find the facts at this hearing as to the extent to which commies in the
Detroit area have infiltrated, if they have, even UAW-CIO or any
union.
Now, that is one of the functions we are here for. Now, in closing r
If we are to lead the free world, we must of necessity shape our policies and
our leadership in the image of our faith and not our fears. History has made
America the custodian of world freedom. Let us act in the knowledge that only
the brave are worthy of leading the free.
May I state this again, Mr. Chairman : I want to disabuse the minds
of any persons who are here, today or yesterday or tomorrow, forever,,
that there is any intent on the part of this committee that I know of —
and I have worked with it several years — I know of no intent on
ihe part of the majority of this committee, either under the Democratic
adininistration or under the Republican administration, to destroy
union labor or collective bargaining, so when you, Mr. Witness, or
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5635
any other witness takes the chair as a member of organized labor,
and I am tokl that the purpose of this committee is to destroy
imion laboi", I say it is false, and I say the Communist Party knows it
is a dirty lie. The}' are lying to capture the grief and the unemploy-
ment and the sorrow and the disgust and the disappointments of a few
American citizens who swallow their line of conspiracy, and some of
those people, I fear, are right in the Detroit area and the Flint area
in union labor today, and those are the unpatriotic American citizens
that we are after, and I w^ant to emphasize again our great labor
unions, in my book — however, this is what he said, and I quote it
again :
However, we in the UAW-CIO sincerely urge any witness called before the
House Un-American Activities Committee, if it is at all possible to do so, to
avoid using the privilege of the fifth amendment.
I ask, Mr. Chairman, that those quotes be included in my remarks
in the record.
Mr. Clardy. They will be, and may I join with you in what you
have said.
I want to add one word. You have been on this committee quite a
lot longer than I have, but in the nearly year and a half that I have
participated, I think you can bear me out when I say no word of *
politics, no word of attack on unions, no word of attack on any organ-
ization has ever been uttered in any of our me?tings, open or otherwise.
Mr. Foster. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Clardy. Never mind. Witness. There is no question pending.
Do you have anything further, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Have you ?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Foster. Mr. Chairman, in all — — •
Mr. Clardy. Witness is dismissed. Call the next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Morton Leitson.
Mr. Clardy. Raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Leitson. I do.
Mr. Clardy. Will your eminent attorney identify himself for the
record ?
Mr. Selby. Guy W. Selby.
Mr. Clardy. One of the foremost lawyers in this area, if I may add.
Are you assisted or do you have someone with you, Mr. Selby?
Mr. Selby. Some other lawyers.
Mr. Clardy. Will they identify themselves so we can hear?
Mr. Dean. Charles C. Dean, D-e-a-n.
Mr. Clardy. Any more ?
Mr. Wistrand. Bruce Wistrand.
Mr. Magee. David S. Magee.
Mr. Leitson. I have another attorney, Mr. Joseph R. Joseph. He
was here yesterday and here this morning.
Mr. Clardy. Well, I imagine that those 4 illustrious gentlemen that
are flanking vou on either side will be able to give you ample pro-
tection.
5636 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
I may say, Mr, Leitson, that this equals the all-time high — in fact,
if you have 5, it exceeds the all-time high of 4 that the committee has
seen.
Mr. Leitson". Sir, I have a question that I. would like to ask the
committee if I may at this time.
Mr. Clardy. Does it have to do with our rules ? I see you have the
book.
]\Ir. Leitson. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, indeed.
TESTIMONY OF MORTON LEITSON, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GUY W. SELBY, CHARLES C. DEAN, BRUCE WISTRAND, AND
DAVID S. MAGEE
Mr. Leitson. I was here yesterday morning and all day today, and
I did not hear the purposes of this investigation set forth. Now, sec-
tion II of your rules of procedure put out by your committee says
that the subject of any investigation in connection with which wit-
nesses are summoned or shall otherwise appear shall be announced in
an opening statement to the committee before the commencement of
any hearings, and the information sought to be elicited at the hearing
shall be relative and germane to the subject as so stated.
I didn't hear that.
Mr. Clardy. May I inform you : You didn't note the key word.
You jumped over it rather hastily. That is for the internal direction
of the affairs of the committee. Before we undertake an investiga-
tion, it is important and necessary under our self-imposed rules that
we clearly state in committee meeting in executive session what we aim
to do. That has nothing to do with the open hearings which we con-
duct. But I do not mind telling you that the open hearings are going
forward under the broad provisions of Public Law 601.
Mr. Leitson. The reason why I asked that question, sir, is that I
would like to be able to judge, and my attorneys would like to be able
to judge as we go along if questions are relevant and germane to the
subiect as so stated.
Mr. Clardy. You will have no difficulty at all on that. I am well
acquainted with at least several of your able counsel. I have great
respect for them. They are good citizens of this community, and I
am sure no improper inference will be drawn, and I am satisfied they
can more than take care of you adequately.
(At this point Mr. Leitson conferred with Mr. Wistrand and Mr.
Ma gee.)
Mr. DoYT.E. Mr. Chairman, however, being a member of the bar
myself, I call the distinguished counsel's attention to the rule book
which he has, rule 7. It might save some embarrassment. On page 3,
on advice of counsel
At every hearing, public or executive, every witness shall be accorded the
privilege of having counsel of his own choosing; 2 (b) the participation of coun-
sel during the course of any hearing while the witness is testifying shall be
limited to advising said witness as to his legal rights. Counsel shall not be
permitted to engage in oral argument with the committee, but shall confine
his activity to the area of legal advice to his client.
I merely call that to your attention because the practice of this
committee is not to allow counsel to either argue or to orally state
objections to a question.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5637
Mr. Selbt. We understand that.
Mr. Clardy. I presume if any huddle is necessary, it will be expe-
dited as rapidly as possible.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Leitson. Morton Leitson.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Leitson ?
Mr. Leitson. I was born in the city of Flint on August 23, 1918.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession?
Mr. Leitson. I am an attorney.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cational training for the practice of your profession has been?
Mr. Leitson. Well, I am a graduate of the Flint public school
system. I had 1 year at Flint Junior College.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the years ?
Mr. Leitson. I graduated from Flint Northern High School in the
year of 1936, June of 1936. I went to junior college for 1 year, the
year of 1936-37, and then I went to the University of Michigan where
I was in attendance until December 20, 1941. Prior to that time I
received a bachelor of arts degree in 1940.
On December 20, 1941, I enlisted in the Armed Forces and served
for 46 months in the Air Corps, 15 months in the Pacific theater, and
then upon the return
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you return ?
Mr. Leitson. I was discharged from the Armed Forces on Novem-
ber 16 of 1945. I returned to the city of Flint. I was here for a few
months in June of 1946. I returned to the University of Michigan
Law School to complete my law school training which I completed in
June of 1947. I was admitted to the bar on June 24 of 1947. I have
been practicing here in the city of Flint since that time.
Mr. Tavenner. You received your law degree in June of 1947?
Mr. Leitson. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Leitson, at the time that you were in attendance
at the University of Michigan in the study of law in 1947 and 1946,
were you aware of the existence at the university of an organized
group of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Leitson. Sir, that question is, in my mind, a question that is
not proper, and I feel that to begin to divulge my knowledge to this
committee about a subject which is under inquiry here obviously —
obviously I have been called here because an attempt is made to link
me with a particular group or groups
Mr. Tavenner. It is thought that you have some knowledge of the
existence of that group.
Mr. Leitson. Well, I would like to state what the inquiry leads up
to and why I feel that it is an improper question and to state why
I refuse to answer such a question.
Mr. Clardy. Well, Mr. Leitson, we are both lawyers. We are mem-
bers of the same profession. I am sure that you will not in any way
want to show anything other than the utmost respect for your Con-
gress. May I point out that in asking that question we are affording
you ample opportunity to state anything you desire in refutation of
what you obvioiLsly, from what you have said, feel is a charge of
some kind. Now, if you are not a member of the party, it would
5638 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
seem to me you would be more than happy to say so. If you are and
are genuinely convinced that the principles the Communists stand
for are sound, you ought to be equally proud to so state that if you
have a firm conviction, but either way — and I am addressing you now
as a lawj^er — either way you answer them, there certainly, if it is a
truthful answer, and I assume that it would be, there is certainly no
way in which you can be subjected to any indignity or any prosecu-
tion whatsoever, but if you want to decline to answer on the fifth or
any of the other amendments that you care to cite, as I have told the
other witnesses, you have the privilege, and we shall not quarrel with
you if you choose to do so.
IVIr. Leitson. I would like to state
Mr. D0YI.E. Mr. Chairman, before the lawyer answers, may I sug-
gest this : It isn't often a lawyer comes before the committee as a wit-
ness. He is flanked by 4 distinguished members of this bar, and we
are glad he is. I know time is short, but inasmuch as under Public
Law 601 we are anxious to get the viewpoint of every thinking citi-
zen that we possibly can get the viewpoint of during our hearings,
I would suggest that the witness perhaps be permitted to have a few
minutes longer than other witnesses because we do want the value of
your opinion, sir, as to why you shouldn't answer this question. It
may help us, you see, in reporting to Congress on the problem to get
your point as a lawyer. If you are going to refuse to answer and
claim your constitutional privilege, it would help us as your Con-
gressmen as to why you, as a lawyer, claim whatever privilege and
claim you do,
Mr. Claedy. Oh, yes. I was making it plain that you had the
three alternatives to answer yes or no or decline to answer and state
your ground. I am sure that we are not thereby inciting the kind
of thing that you have seen in this room, a long tirade addressed to
issues that are not before us and of no moment. Confine yourself to
the legal issue involved and state it as succinctly as you can.
(At this point Mr. Leitson conferred with Mr. Wistrand and Mr.
Magee.)
Mr. Clardt. While they are conferring, I think I should add on
the record that the resolution adopted by the bar association up here
certainly meets with our approval. We think it was a wholesome
thing to do. We welcome what has been done.
Mr. DoTLE. "\Yliat was that bar association rule ?
Mr. Clardt. They adopted a resolution which in effect told the
members of the bar that if their assistance was sought by any of those
subpenaed of the committee, they had the duty, if I read it correctly,
to respond to that call. I think that is a fair statement of the resolu-
tion, and I agree with it entirely.
Mr. Lettson. Gentlemen, this question presupposes that T have a
knowledge of some Communist Party organization on the campus
of the University of Michigan, and to answer that question would
then open the door as to what knowledge I may have if I have any,
and for that reason, to place me in a position where I have to disclose
information about myself, perhaps, or perhaps about other persons
or what knowledge I have that may link me with a particular group
or perhaps with other groups, in my opinion being something that
I cannot possibly do in good conscience.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5639
Mr. Clardy, Witness, may I interrupt you ?
Mr. Leitson. Yes. n ^ n -
Mr. Clardy. If you have no knowledge, that is a perfectly fair
lanswer. Merely say that you have no knowledge.
Mr. Leitson.' Sir, I think that it is common knowledj^e that there
are Communist Party groups throughout the country, at least accord-
ing to the statements made by this committee and by your hearings
that were held in Detroit, when you had University of Michigan pro-
fessors and students before your group.
Mr. Clardy. That is right.
Mr. Leitson. It appears to be common knowledge. Now, to ask me
if I have knowledge of that, then the followup question to that would
be wliat knowledge do I have, if any. Now, as to that I cannot pos-
sibly — I think I have discussed it with my attorneys— there is a doc-
trine of waiver. Once we open the door, further questions follow. I
must insist that I cannot possibly answer that question, and I will
give my legal reasons for refusing to answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. All right. As quickly as you can, because these law-
yers will understand
Mr. Leitson. I have no intention of being verbose. I would like
to wind this up as soon as possible, I can assure you.
Mr. Clardy. I say as brother lawyers I think we can understand
you without your going into the long remarks that some people make
who are not attorneys.
Mr. Leitson. Well, I feel it is important that I state my reasons
Tather completely.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Leitson. In view of the question that was — it appears to me
that this inquiry is a clear-cut violation of the first amendment to the
Constitution which guarantees to individuals the right to be free in
their thoughts, to have free speech, free assembly — in fact, the follow-
up questions that would lead from an answer to this question are in
direct conflict with the opinion from the Supreme Court of the United
;States, in the West Virginia /State Board of Education v. Bamett
(319 U. S. 624) , where the Supreme Court said that no official, high or
petty, may prescribe what sliall be orthodox in politics, nationalism,
religion, or other matters of opinion or for citizens to confess by word
or act their faith therein, and the very answer to this question would
lead to further questions along that very line which would be in effect
ti violation of the first amendment.
Next, I further decline to answer by virtue of that amendment which
was inserted into the Constitution for the protection of all persons
from being forced to testify against themselves. Very often I have
heard statements made by the chairman of this committee that a wit-
ness is either lying or he has something to hide if he uses the fifth
-amendment as a defense.
Mr. Clardy. You haven't heard me say that.
Mr. Leitson. I hoj^e that I am incorrect on that. If I am, I stand
corrected.
Mr. Clardy. Well, you are corrected right now. I have not made
that statement.
Mr. Leitson. Well, in that case then, I withdraw tlie statement.
I thought that I recalled it from a meeting at the bar association.
5640 CORIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. No, you probably have in mind the fact that we have
frequently said that we cannot prevent others from drawing conclu-
sions as to your guilt or innocence if we give you a question on which
you take the fifth amendment, and we can't; the human mind being
what it is, circumstances developing what they are, many people do
draw that conclusion, and I frankly tell you there are instances —
and I haven't drawn any on you at all — there are instances in which
I would go along with that inference. Go ahead.
Mr. LErrsoN. Well, I am referring to the privilege of the fifth
amendment.
!Mr. Clardy. Yes.
;Mr. Leitson. Which I am also relying on for refusing to answer
that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware of the existence while you were
a student at Michigan University of a group, an organized group, of
the Communist Party in Ann Arbor known as the Town Club of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Leitson. Well, sir, there again you have the very same question
phrased perhaps in a little different way. You just previously asked
if I had any knowledge of any Communist Party group at Ann Arbor,
and now you repeat
^Ir. Tavenner. No, not at Ann Arbor ; in the University of Michi-
gan.
Mr. Leitson. Well, the University of Michigan is located in Ann
Arbor.
Mr. Tavenner, Now I am speaking of the town of Ann Arbor itself.
Mr. Leitson. Well, I would have to refuse to answer that question
for all the reasons I previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Leitson, in every instance in which the com-
mittee has been able to ascertain facts regarding the operation of a
cell or group of the Communist Party, almost without exception, I
should say, there appears to have been given a direction to the mem-
bers of the group to join mass organizations, sometimes referred to
as front organizations, for two purposes : One as a means of recruiting
members into the Communist Party, and as another, the purpose of
carrying to those groups the issues in which the Communist Party as
a party was interested. Our investigation has developed that you were
active as a student at the University of Michigan and that: you be-
longed to various organizations there — and I am not speaking of the
Communist Party now — I am talking about other organizations. I
would like to know, the committee would like to know, to what extent
those organizations were influenced or guided by Communist Party
influences within them, if you know.
Mr. Leitson. The very fact that you phrase that question in that
way implies that I have knowledge— I have such knowledge. Now,
I liave stated to this committee here that I will refuse to answer— I
have refused so far, and I will refuse to answer all questions that in
any way imply that I have or have not got information regarding the
Communist Party, but not only the Communist Party, mind you. I
would like to say also that in referring to all those or.«Tanizations that
the Attorney General has entered on his prescribed list, some 260 of
them, I believe, and the many more that he may put on in the future ;
for inRtan-^e, the Projrressive Party, which you have indi(iated will
be on that list very shortly
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5641
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, may I just ask this question, then, that
I learned your answer, the refusal to answer directly, is partially
based upon what you said, the form of the question presupposed that
you had some knowledge about Communist Party activities. You so
stated.
Mr. Leitson. That is correct.
Mr, Doyle. All right. Now grant that that presupposed that. Do
you have any knowledge in the Detroit area of the activities of the
Communist Party ? If you do, I am asking you to tell us what they
are.
Mr. Leitson. Well, Congressman Doyle, I will refuse to answer
that question. I will refuse to answer that question for the reasons
that I have given. The fact that you rephrased it doesn't change the
character of the question.
Mr. Doyle. I didn't try to rephrase it. I just tried to go right
straight to the issue and ask you directly.
Mr. Leitson. And that is the very reason why I refuse to answer
the question, because you are seeking, by virtue of your investigation —
in fact, the very fact that a person is subpenaed here implies that he
has some connection or some knowledge or something of that sort, and
I refuse to answer the question for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Doyle. You are a lawyer, you are familiar with Public Law
601. You know full well why we are here. We are here functioning
under Public Law 601 which challenges us to find the facts about
Communist propaganda and activities any place in this country. You
know that, don't you. Counsel ?
Now, then, one thing more, so you will understand and so the group
here will understand why our Counsel shapes the question in that way.
You know that our investigators have been in this area for some
months surely. Our investigators from Washington with some of the
State investigators. State police, have been cooperating in this area,
and naturally they have given our Counsel and this committee some
evidence, you see, that there is a Communist Party activity in this
area. Now, frankly, you are here because our record sliows that we
believe from our investigation over the last 6 or 8 montlis here that
you had some knowledge of some sort, probably pretty valuable to us
if you would give it to us, about Communist Party activities. That is
why Counsel formed the question as presupposing that you knew
something about it because our evidence from several investigators
tells us you do. Is that a fair statement ?
Mr. Leitson. I would like to say this, sir
Mr. Doyle. That is fair to you, that is why I am stating it.
Mr. Leitson. I would like to say this, that there are many different
ideas about the purposes of the House of Representatives Un-Ameri-
can Activities Committee. In fact, even in Congress, there are Mem-
bers of Congress who disagree with the purposes and attach ulterior
motives to the House Un-American Activities Committee.
Mr. Clardy. May I interrupt you. You should have difficulty
naming one of them.
Mr. Leitson. May I read a quote of Congressman Weir from the
Third Congressional District
Mr. D0Y1.E. Well, I am well acquainted with him. I sit with him
almost every day.
5642 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Leitson. I would like to give a direct quotation.
Mr. Doyle. When «iven and where ?
IVIr. Leitson. Reprinted in the Nation magazine of two weeks ago,
I believe, two or three weeks ago, and here it is, and I quote :
And so today, as I view the witchhunting and accusations and smear cam-
paign carried on by tlie House Un-American Activities Committee as well as
by Senator McCarttiy and his stooges
incidentally, these are the words of Congressman Weir —
and the Jenner Committee, I cannot compromise my convictions or follow the
line of least resistance. To me our entire way of life is at stake. I refuse to
acquiesce in such demagogery because I have been convinced that every one of
these committee chairmen has succumbed to the lure of newspaper headlines and
other publicity that may some day make them a national hero or president.
That was made by Congressman Eoy W. Weir of the Third Con-
gressional District.
]Mr. Doyle. JNIay I state this, please, counsel — no doubt you are
familiar with the voting record of Members of Congress on appro-
priations of this committee, aren't you ?
Mr. Leitson. I understand he is the only one who
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Weir was the only Member of the House that
voted against an appro]3riation for this committee.
Mr. Clardy. Out of 435.
Mr. Doyle. And may I say that yesterday, when we submitted the
resolutions citing for contempt or asking the House to cite for con-
tempt 9 people who were in contempt, we believe, of this committee,
Mr. Weir did not vote against tliose resolutions. The vote was 345
to nothing. I just want the record to show that.
Mr. Leitson. I have no knowledge of whether he was there or not.
ISIr. Doyle. I respect Mr. Weir. I believe he is a conscientious
gentleman and up to the point where any of us ever do seek publicity,
if we do, Mr. Weir is justified in his criticism, but that is no sign that
it is being done at all times, you see.
Mr. Leitson. Sir, I happen to be one of the people that disagree
with the methods and a good deal of the purpose of the House Un-
American Activities Committee.
Mr. Clardy. Well, you have that right, and we do not intend to
deprive you of it.
Mr. Leitson. And for that reason I cannot possibly cooperate with
the committee.
Mr. Clardy. We understand it, but let me reinforce what Congress-
man Doyle has said. ]\fr. Tavenner would not have asked you the
questions he did had not the investigation that has been going on for
a lonjx, long time — every angle of which I am thoroujjhly familiar
with because the chairman confided it to my care — that investigation
had not brought to our attention substantial and reasonable evidence
to warrant our giving you an opportunity in this hearing to flatly
contradict it, to admit it, or to follow any couivse that you want
because that evidence consisted of identifications of your attendance
at various places and of the advice that you have given and of the
people who have consulted with you, which needed explanation.
Now, you do not have to give it if you do not want to, but joii have
that opportunity, if you care to avail yourself of it, and to place before
the people in the community where you live your side, your statement,
if you have any to make. If you do not choose to do so, we cannot
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5643
be held responsible for any inference that anybody may draw, good
or bad.
Mr. Doyle. May I make this clear to you before you make any
further statement": In view of the statement of Mr. Clardy referring
to those who interviewed or conferred with you, if that was his
language
Mr, Clardy, No, with others.
Mr. DoY^LE. May I make it clear, I am sure the Chair was not refer-
ring to any relationship of attorney and client.
Mr. Clardy, Oh, no, none whatever.
Mr. Doyle. Let me make that clear.
Mr, Clardy. Proceed, ISIr, Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner, Mr. Leitson, I have before me a document put out
by the American Youth for Democracy, entitled "Facts on tlie Cur-
rent Widespread Campaign Against Academic Freedom." On page
7 there appears a statement of "the University of Michigan Academic
Freedom Committee, and in the course of that statement references
are made to various students at the university who presumably were
supporting it. Now, my only purpose in making reference to this is
to show that your name is mentioned there as president of the Stu-
dents Lawyers' Guild chapter. That was in the year 1947. I assume
that that is a correct statement, that you were president of the lawyers
guild chapter, National Lawyers' Guild chapter, during that year,
am I correct?
Mr. Leitsok. Well, sir, there again we are touching upon a ques-
tion of another organization that I mentioned previously. There are
many organizations cited bv the Attorney General. I am certainlv of
the opinion that the National Lawyers' Guild is a very worthwhile
organization and has strongly defended the constitutional rights of
all people, but the Attorney 'General of the United States has seen
fit to cite it as a subversive organization, and this committee has so
cited it, and for me to answer' that question might lead to further
implications that I do not care to get into. I would not answer that
question.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, at the time that this document was printed
in 1947. which as I said, refers to your position as being at that time
the head of the National Lawyers' Guild chapter at the University
of Michigan, were you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Leitson. Mr. Tavenner, you may rephrase questions or phrase
many questions around the same subject, and I am going to refuse to
answer all of those questions, and I would say this, that in refusing,
that an inference may be made incorrectly, perhaps, but an inference
may be made about my membership in any organization because I
refuse to answer questions regarding organizations. I must, of neces-
sity, refuse to answer that question because it goes against everything
that I believe in. I do not feel you have any right to inquire into my
l-)ersonal beliefs, and I must, of necessity, refuse to answer that ques-
ti on , and I include all the reasons that I previously stated.
May I say something else, Mr. Tavenner, without— also I think a
very important point here, that I have— there is a feslinff that people
who appear before this committee have violated laws. That is a feel-
ing that people have, even though this is not a trial, this is not a crimi-
nal court in the sense that yoii can mete out punishment, but still that
is the impression that people can get, and I say this, if you feel I have
5644 COACMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
■violated any law of the land, I feel you have a duty to give that infor-
mation to a grand jury in order to have them prosecute me. If not,
I think you should leave me alone.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Leitson, may I say this, if that impression is wide-
spread, it is due solely to two things : first, because of the manner in
which the witnesses conduct themselves when they appear before the
committee, and secondly, because of the fact that a great many of those
who have appeared before this committee — it stems back even beyond
the Alger Hiss episode — have been subsequently convicted in court. It
is not because of the conduct of the committee itself.
Now, I am told that counsel would desire a recess at this juncture,
am I correct ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. We call a 5-minute recess at this point.
(AVliereupon, at 2: 58 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 3 :03 p.m.)
(Whereupon, at 3 : 10 p. m., the hearing was reconvened.)
Mr. Clardy. Before you continue your questioning, a matter was
brought to my attention this morning or during the noon hour, I guess
it was — am I not correct ? The phone call dealing with Kelly, was tliat
during the noon hour?
Mr. AViSTRAND. Oh, yes.
Mr. Clardy. I suggested at the time that in line with the practice
of the committee we would be most happy to make a statement that
would prevent anyone from misunderstanding who was named and
identified. I will read a little communication I have here.
My name is Pearl Irene Kelly.
That is the person who wrote this.
I am not the Pearl Kelly that is mixed up with the Communist Party. I also
work at the AC, and this is causing me a great deal of embarrassment. My
husband's name is Patrick W. Kelly. Our address is 617 Burrows Avenue. He
is manager for the
Well, I am not sure, of some packing company in Battle Creek.
I called the Journal. They wouldn't even sell me space in the papers to clear my
name. Please put the real Pearl Kelly's address in the paper.
I want to make it clear that the identification of the Mr. Kelly was a
Thomas Kelly, as I recall it. Am I right, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. And the Pearl Kelly did not have a middle name of
Irene. It was Pearl Potter Kelly. I trust that everyone within the
liearing room and within sound of our voice, and I trust also that the
press will please copy, will make correction, to make it clear that the
Pearl Irene Kelly and her husband that are named in this communi-
cation are not the ones that were in any way involved in the testimony
before this committee up to this time.
Will you put that in the file, and if there is anyone else, anyone else
at all, that feels that any unjust implication or misidentification is
present, will contact us, we will be more than happy to make the cor-
rection, and I repeat again what was said at the outset yesterday, if
anybody desires to be heard, anybody that was identified as a member
of the Communist Party, wishes to be heard by this committee in an
effort to set us right, if it is a mistake, at the convenience of the com-
mittee and such persons, we will give them that opportunity, if they
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5645
Avill request it. In addition, in accordance with the rules, after we i^et
to Washington, notification will be sent to those people, again inform-
ing them that they will have that opportunity.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I think, Mr. Chairman, while counsel is getting
ready for the next question those people, if they feel that they are
being hurt through an error — it certainly is unintentionally on our
part — they should let us know promptly so that the minimmn of harm
will be done.
Mr. Clakdy. Right. I am moved to say something else. I pass no
judgment on it, but I was bearded more or less good naturedly in the
room next door here about some inquiry that was made of me, I believe,
last week or the forepart of this week, concerning the action taken at
the Chevrolet local where the international has taken over. I don't
remember the quotation — in fact, I am not too sure that I read it after
the reporter talked to me, but it went something along his line, that I
think I was asked as to whether it wasn't a coincidence that we were
coming to town and at the same time the international had moved in,
and I frankly said yes, it may have been or did look to be a coincidence,
although I don't think I was quoted, and I don't think I was even asked
as to whether there was any direct connection, and I didn't so imply.
I don't know what the connection is, if any, but I am assured by an
attorney whom I met for the first time today that there was no such
connection. We will let the matter rest right there.
Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Leitson, during the course of a hearing in Xew
York last summer the committee had occasion to call before it Cedric
Belfrage, who was the editor of National Guardian, and the committee
made some investigation relating to his activities in connection with
the Communist Party as well as the paper that he represented, the
National Guardian. I would like to ask you several questions with
regard to that paper, if you know anything about it, the National
Guardian. Did you make an appointment or arrange a meeting at
3810 Brentwood, Mich, for Mr. John L. McManus of the National
Guardian ?
(At this point Mr. Leitson conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Tavenner. "When I said "Brentwood," I meant Brentwood at
Flint, Mich.
Mr. Leitson. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons already
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, if you know, please,
whether or not the National Guardian, acting through Mr. John L.
]McManus or any other member of its staff, initiated in this community
a movement for clemency for the Rosenbergs ?
Mr. Leitson. Sir, I would like to ask you, you have listed on your
list of organizations so many organizations that are taboo, that I don't
know who they all are. I would like to ask you if this committee, the
National Committee to Secure Justice for the Rosenbergs that you
referred to before, is on that list.
Mr. Tavenner. No, it is not listed in the Guide to Subversive Organ-
izations put out by this committee. I may, however, call to your atten-
tion that this guide was put out on May 14, 1951.
48861 — 54 — pt. 9^ 5
5646 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Leitsox. Well, sir, I can recall many statements by many con-
gressional people in which they attacked that organization— another
organization was attacked. I feel this way, sir, that I cannot pos-
sibly
Mr. Tavenner. I asked you no question about that organization.
Mr. Leitson. Well, you asked if I know of any activity of the Na-
tional Guardian here in the city of Flint ?
Mr. Tavexxer. Yes, and I asked you if the National Guardian was
responsible througli John L. McManus or any other member of the
staff for any other activity.
Mr. Leitsox. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavexxer. Not to your knowledge. Did you have a confer-
ence with John L. McManiis in regard to the matter or receive any
communication from him in connection with it ?
Mr. Leitsox. I cannot recall any communication that I received
from him regarding this matter.
Mr. Tavexxer. Well, did yon receive one indicating a desire on
tlie part of the National Guardian to have individuals meet with Jolm
L. McManus at 3810 Brentwood?
(At tliis point Mr. I^eitson conferred with Mr. Wistrand and Mr.
Magee.)
(At this point Mr. Leitson conferred with Mr. Dean.)
Mr. Leitsox. I refuse to answer that question for tlic reasons
already stated.
Mr. Ceardy. Mr. Tavenner, your prior question was not completely
answered, that part of it that had to do with whether Mr. Leitson had
had any confei'ences. You talked about communications but you
didn't mention wliether there had been any conferences. Will you
answer that part?
Mr. T EiTSOx. I also refuse to answer that, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavexxer. Was 3810 Brentwood your home?
Mr. Leitsox. It is my home at tlie present time.
1 Mr. Tavexxer. Was it your home during 1952?
Mr. Leitsox. Yes.
Mr. Tavexxer. And has been ever since?
Mr. Leitsox. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. Leitson, have you made any conlributions
directly to the Communist Party?
Mr. Leitsox. I refuse to answer that question, sir, for the reasons
already stated.
(At this point Mr. Leitson conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Tavexxer. The committee has understood from its investiga-
tion that tliere has been a small group of members of the Communist
Party in Flint, composing what is generally referred to as a profes-
sional group of the Communist Paity as a separate and distinct organ-
ization from the groups in industry and the neighborhood groups.
Have you at any time been a member of a professional group of tlie
Communist Party in Flint?
Mr. Leitsox. Sir, no matter how many different ways you ]:>hrase
that question, you are implying that I have done something wrong,
and I would like to state to the committee this, that I have sworn to
uphold the Constitution when I entered the Armed Forces; again
when I took my oath of office as an attorney, and I have tried to the
best of my ability at all times to follow that in every possible way. I
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5647
liave never at any time advocated tlie use of force and violence oi- the
overtlirow of tliis government by force and violence; in fnct, I have
been for peace all of the time, and I feel that the questions th.at you are
propounding tend to ^ive an impression that I am some sinister person
that has ulterior motives; that is absolutely false. It is nol true, but
I will not answer any questions regarding my political beliefs or any
organizations that I may or may not have belonged to, for the reasons
ali-eady stated.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. May I at this point — I noticed a few minutes ago, too,
Mr. Leitson, you made this statement — it is the feeling that people
who appear before this committee have violated some criminal law.
Now, again you uttered the same thought, that Mr. Tavenner asking
you questions gives the thought that he possibly is charging you with
having done something wrong, and then you stated that you never
violated or never advocated the use of force and violence to overthrow
our constitutional form of government.
I think it is only fair to you to say that this is my position as a
member of the committee : The record shows that in A]:)ril 1945 the
Duclos letter came to this country. Are you familiar with the Duclos
letter, written by the great French Communist who is now considered
one of the top Communists of Europe? Are you familar with this
letter that came to this country in 1945 ?
Mr. Leitson. There again, sir, I refuse to answer any questions
pertaining to that field. It is a field I refuse to discuss.
Mr. Doyle. I am trying to say to you, sir, that I think the people
feel that many people who appear before this committee liave di-
rectly or indirectly been in cooperation with some criminal intent.
That is the purpose of my question. I want to try to explain to you
why I think our conclusion is right, that many people feel that a man
that comes before this committee has been tied up in some criminal
conspiracy. Let me say this, then, for the purpose of this question —
I know you are an intelligent man and well read, and I am going to
assume that you are familiar with the Duclos letter, because I think
probably every member of the bar, since April 1945, has been well
aware that the Duclos letter which came to this country in April 1945
laid down the proposition to the American Communist Party that
Earl Browder had to be kicked out of the American Communist Party
because he said in a Communist convention and in his writings back
in 1945 and 1944 that the American form of economics, the American
competitive free-enterprise system and Soviet communism could live
in the same world side by side.
Earl Browder said that. He was president of the Communist
Party in America at that time as you well know.
Now, then, when this Duclos letter came to the American Commu-
nist Party in that year, it said, those two philosophies cannot survive
side by side in the same world. The Soviet system must be victorious,
must i3e the only system of economics in the world. It has to survive,
and as a result of the Duclos letter, Earl Browder was kicked out of
the American Communist Party.
Mr. Foster was put in, still there ; Browder out, so that since April
and May 1945, sir, I want to make it clear to you and everyone else
5648 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
that my impression as an American is that any man or women that
has read the history, political history, economic history, since about
April or May 1945, is charged with notice that since that year it lias
been a showdown between the American system of competitive free
enterprise and the Soviet system of conspiritorial communism.
Now, then, one more point: As I read the record of the Federal
court cases and the jury cases in the United States in the last 214 or
3 years where the Smith Act has been used as the legal instrumenl: to
convict those charged by our Federal district attorneys with teacliing
and advocating the forceful overthrow of our form of government,
every one, as I read it, Mr. Leitson, and you tell me if I am wrong,
but in every one of those cases every defendant, and there have been
about 12 pases, 12 different parts of the United States — in every one
of those jury cases every defendant has been found guilty with the
exception of one.
Now, then, I am explaining to you why I think you are quite right,
that the people have come to the conclusion as a result of those 12
jury cases throughout the United States, where every defendant,
members of the Communist Party, has been found guilty of teaching
and advocating the forceful and violent overthrow of our form of
government.
They, therefore, have tied up with the Communist conspiracy any-
one AA^io is charged with being a member of the Communist Party,
whether lie advocates the forceful and violent overthrow of our form
of government or not, and I would say to you, sir, because you are
under oath and you are a member of the bar, I would say to you that
I will take your statement at face value that you never taught nor
advocated the forceful and violent overthrow of my form of govern-
ment and your form, but I will say to you that if you had been tied
up — I am not referring alone to you — but if you or any other Amer-
ican citizen has been tied up with the American Communist Party
under core or underground or leadership since about April or May
1945, directly or indirectly, with tlie underground, with the hard core
of the American Communist Party, then you did it with your eyes
open, and you are charged in the minds of the American ])ublic as
advocating the use of force and violence to overthrow our form of
constitutional government.
That is why, attorney, I think, in my study of this problem and
sitting on this committee, that so many people have a feeling that
a man that is subpenaed before our committee and pleads the fifth
amendment, especially, is in some way tied up with the conspiracy
which has been proven to exist.
One more statement and then I will not take more time, Mr. Chair-
man, on this, but I feel this was an appropriate place to explain to
this young lawyer an answer to his question. I have had the benefit
of two experiences recently in Congress in the last few years. A cou-
ple years ago, 3 years ago, I was sent to Korea and Japan and the
Philippines. While over there I interrogated most civilian and mili-
tary intelligence on the question of the Communist conspiracy abroad,
and they all told me, sir, that the conspiracy there in China, Japan,
Philippines, Indochina, was part of the same conspiracy that is pres-
ent right here with any who advocate force and violence. That is one
point.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5649
The second point is this, when I was in Europe 8 or 9 months ago
for Congress, I interviewed most of the American Ambassadors, most
of the American consuls, most American intelligence, and some for-
eign intelligence. They, Mr. Chairman, told us the same thing. ^ It
is^part and parcel of the same conspiracy. Those in the United
States who are hard core and who do advocate the use of force and
violence to overthrow, are the brains of the American Communist
Party, and those who choose to associate with those unpatriotic trai-
tors, they choose to do it knowingly, they bear the brunt and bear
tlie results.
That may explain your answer where you feel that people think
that people who come before this committee are guilty of some wrong-
doing.
Mr. Leitson. Well, sir, I would like to say this, that many organ-
izations have been listed as Communist- front organizations and Com-
munist organizations, and the latest that I heard mentioned, during
tlie course of these hearings, was the Progressive Party. A witness
testified yesterday that the Progressive Party was a Communist organ-
ization.
Now, what you are in effect saying — if I am wrong, correct me —
is that membership in an organization that is called a Communist
organization makes all those members ipso facto advocates of the use
of force and violence which I don't agree with.
Mr. DoTLE. Not at all in my book ; not at all in my book. May I
say to you, though, the uncontroverted evidence, sir, and I think you
know it because I see that you are familiar with the problem — you
know the record sliows the Progressive Party, IPP, as initiated in
our country was initiated under the control of the Communist Party
in the United States. That is the record, and I think you know it.
We might just as well face that.
Mr. Clardy. We have all kinds of evidence on that fact, and it
has never been controverted. I join you, Mr. Doyle. My trip last
fall all over Europe brought me exactly the same information that
you have. That is one of the reasons I went abroad, to find out if
that was the fact at first hand, and it was certainly confirmed. Do
you have any more questions, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. May I make this one statement, and then I will be
througli. In view of your statement that because membership in a
party were later developed to be Communist led or Communist con-
trolled, that didn't charge everyone in that group, in that organiza-
tion, with being a commie — I won't agree with you. I don't go on the
theory of guilt by association, but if you stay "in that association too
long, some of it rubs off on you.
Mr. Clardy. "Wliat Mr. Doyle was saying, and what I agree with,
is that certainly after the Duclos letter anybody who pleads that he
didn't know that he was in the Communist Party that was dedicated
to the destruction of this Government by force and violence is just
telling us something that isn't so, and it can't be so, because everyone
in the world was put on notice then.
I am one who believes that anybody who ever belonged in the party
knew that from the beginning because that has been written in the
dogma of the party from the day it was organized and suggested by
Karl Marx down to the present time.
4S861 — 54— pt. 6
5650 COMJMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Leitson, I think in light of j^our statement with
reo-ard to the Progressive Party, that I should call to your attention
that the witness, Mrs. Churchill, testified that in the inception of the
organization of the Progressive Party in Flint there were many per-
sons who were members of it who were in no sense connected with the
Communist Party, but she further testified that as time ])rogressed,
the leadership of the Progressive Party were those persons who were
members of the Communist Party, and the conmiittee has heard con-
siderable evidence to that effect.
I would like to know from you whether or not members of the Com-
munist Party held official positions in the Progressive Party in Flint,
to your knowledge.
Mr. Leitson. Sir, the answer to that question implies that I have
knowledge of the workings of the Progressive Party here in the city
of Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, do you ?
Mr. Leitson. Right after listening to Congressman Clardy, I can-
not possibly answer that question. I refuse to answer it for the reasons
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Leitson. Sir, I believe you asked that question ])ef ore.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. No, sir ; I have not.
Mr. Leitson. Well, I was under the impression that you had. I
refuse to answer that question for the reasons already stated.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Leitson. Same answers, same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, IMr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Any questions, Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Velde. ISIr. Leitson, just one short question and possibly an
observation. You possibly are familiar with the legislation wliich
is pending before the Congress of the United States at the present
time, that being a bit of legislation that has been recommended by
the President of the United States, which some of us believe in, which
would grant immunity from prosecution for crimes from anything
arising out of congressional hearing to a witness who saw fit to take
advantage of that offer of immunity. If that bill were in full force
and effect at the present time and you were offered immunity, would
you then aswer the questions that have been put to you by Counsel?
Mr. Leitson. That, sir, is a question that I could say is hypo-
thetical.
Mr. Velde. Itishy])othetical,yes.
Mr. Leitson. But I will say this, that I do not believe that taking
the fifth amendment out of the Constitution at the request of the
President or at the behest of the Attorney General is a proper piece
of legislation, and I would, beino- so firmly opposed to depriving
people of the fifth amendment which has been the heritage of our
countrv since it was formed
Mr. Velde. jS[ow, Mr. Leitson, it isn't depriving
Mr. Leitson. It goes a.n;ainst everything I believe in.
Mr. Velde. It is not depriving the peo]:)le of the fifth amendment
whatsoever. Of course some day some legislation to that effect will
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5651
be passed by the Congress ; I might say also, not only with reference
to your particular case, but with reference to other cases which other-
wise w^ould have appeared here and elsewhere throughout the United
States. It seems to me that any person who joins the Communist
Party, after the Duolos letter, as late as 19-17, 191:8, must be aware that
the Attorney General of the United States and the courts of the land,
our congressional conunittees, have found that the Communist Party
is a conspiracy designed to overthrow our form of government.
Therefore, if he engages in Communist Party activities, he is cer-
tainly recognized by me and I am sure by a great majority of th&
American people to have don", so or be doing so voluntarily,
Mr, Clardy. Any further questions, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. No questions, Mr. Chairman, but — and I don't direct
this to you alone, ISIr. Leitson, but I feel I must say this to you. You
apparently have great ability, great resources mentally, physically. I
invite you to look into tlie facts about what we have related about
what the Comnuinist Party in the United States is standing for if you
don't know. I invite you to look into it, and then I invite you to get
on the ball and iiglit it, fight it tenaciously, because you are a young
man, you are important.
You, as a member of the bar, owe that to your country, not to be
lax, not to keep yourself in any association, even unintentionally,
where you may be misunderstood. I say it to you frankly. There
are a lot of boys in Korea and elsewhere who can't do it, and I want
to urge all you people who may hear me to get on the ball and do your
dead level best honestly and in good faith to fight this thing which
]s the cause of Korea, which is the cause of Indochina. That is what
It is in Korea and Indochina, a part of the conspiracy to take over the
control militarily, economically, politically, socially, of the free world,
and if you as a member of the bar don't know it, it is time you do
know it and get busy and get on the ball and fight it.
You will pardon me for referring to you in that way, but that is just
a way I feel as a member of the court, the same as you are, and I want
to urge all people to do that same thing. If you don't, some of your
own sons and grandsons are going to be over there fighting for us.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr, Clardy. Any further questions, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I venture to make a statement
to the witness ?
j\Ir. Clardy, Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. I just want to inform the witness that there have
been instances where persons have appeared before this committee and
have relied upon tlie fifth amendment and have refused to advise the
committee of their knowledge of activities, and some of those people
have come back even as late as 2 years afterward, as an entirely vol-
untary matter on their part, and have felt greatly relieved by having
done so, and advised the committee, and I just want merely to say that
if at any later time you desire to talk to the staff or any member of
this connnittee, you will be heard.
> That is all I have to say.
]Mr. Clardy. I want to add to that this fact, that no one who has
come before this committee and cooperated, to our knowledge, has ever
had economic sanctions visited upon them as a result of their helping
their government root out every tentacle of this traitorous conspiracy.
5652 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
No one has anything to fear if he will tell the truth, if he will help
his Government in the fight that Mr. Doyle has so eloquently described.
The witness is excused. Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Max Dean.
Mr. Clardt. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Dean. I do.
Mr. Clardy. Will counsel please again identify themselves?
Mr. Newblatt. Harry Newblatt.
Mr. Selbt. Guy W. Selby.
Mr. Magee. David Magee.
Mr. WiSTRAND. Bruce Wistrand.
Mr. Charles Dean. Charles C. Dean.
Mr. Doyle. Again, Mr. Chairman, I am sure you join with me in
saying that we appreciate your taking time to come to the hearing
and represent your client, five busy lawyers.
TESTIMONY OF MAX DEAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
HARRY NEWBLATT, GUY W. SELBY, DAVID MAGEE, BRUCE
WISTRAND, AND CHARLES C. DEAN
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Dean. Max Dean.^
Mr. Tavenner. AVlien and where were you born, Mr. Dean ?
Mr. Dean. December 15, 1922.
Mr. Tavenner. Where ?
Mr. Dean. In Flint, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Dean. Here in Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ?
Mr. Dean. I am a justice of the peace and practicing attorney.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, how long you
have been engaged in the practice of law ?
Mr. Dean. Since August 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat was your educational training and prepara-
tion for the practice of your profession ?
Mr. Dean. I am a graduate of the Beecher High School here in
Flint, and after that I took two years at the Central Michigan Col-
lege of Education in Mount Pleasant, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. I am sorry, I did not understand the name of the
school,
Mr. Dean. The Central Michigan College of Education.
Mr. Tavenner. A^^ien did you complete your work there ?
Mr. Dean. In 1942.
Mr, Tavenner. Where did you take your legal training ?
Mr. Dean. After I — I did not finish my literar}^ training at the
Central Michigan College. In 1942 1 entered the Navy and received
the training of a pilot in the Naval Air Training Corps and took my
commission in the Marine Corps Reserve.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you in the Armed Forces ?
Mr. Dean. Until January 1946.
1 Individual identified herein as Mr. Dean refers to the witness, Max Dean.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5653
Mr. Tavenner, Did you have service overseas ?
Mr, Dean. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. In what area ?
Mr. Dean. I was in the Pacific area where I was stationed for nine
months with a dive bomber squadron as a pilot, and at that time I
feel I would like to inform the committee that I received two Dis-
tinguished Flying Crosses and five Air Medals.
Mr. Tavenner. I wanted to give you the opportunity to say that.:
Mr. Dean. Thank you.
Mr. Clardy. You say you were a pilot?
Mr. Dean. Yes, I was.
Mr. Clardy. We have something in common, at least. I have been
one for better than 25 years, so I think I will understand your
language. Proceed.
Mr. Dean. About my formal education?
Mr. Ta\^nner. When did you receive your honorable discharge?
Mr. Dean. It was in — I was separated from the service and pro-
cured my discharge honorably about 1952.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you separated from the service?
Mr. Dean. In January of 1946 when I left the active duty with the
Reserve.
Mr. Tavenner. Now will you tell the committee, please, what you
did upon your separation from the service ?
Mr. Dean. I enrolled at the University of Michigan School of
Literature, Science, and Arts.
Mr. Tavenner. How many years did you engage in study at the
University of Michigan?
Mr. Dean. I received my bachelor of arts degree there and then
entered the Law School at the University of Michigan.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you receive your degree?
Mr. Dean. In February of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated that you received your discharge in 1952.
Mr. Dean. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that correct? Was that a Reserve commission
which you held?
Mr. Dean. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you renew your Reserve commission?
Mr. Dean. No, I did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attempt to renew it?
Mr. Dean. Never.
Mr. TA^^NNER. You do not hold a commission now?
Mr. Dean. No, I do not.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you afforded a hearing of any character in
connection with your Reserve commission?
Mr. Dean. "V\niat do you mean by that, sir?
Mr. TA^^:NNER. Was any action taken prior to the granting of your
discharge with regard to your Reserve commission?
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
Mr. Dean. Yes, I received from the Marine Corps under tlie appro-
priate Marine Corps regulation which was promulgated under the
Bureau of Personnel of the Navy, which also had a directive that was
based upon the President's Executive order, asking me to answer cer-
tain interrogatories, and I objected to the interrogatories and submit-
5654 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
ted a letter of resignation criticizing the use of this method and ten-
dered my resignation regretfully.
I informed the commandant that I felt that he was having to do
this because of political pressures in AVashington, and I received a
letter back from him accepting my resignation and commending me
for my service, and he enclosed — and I received my honorable dis-
charge from the INIarine Corps at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of the interrogatory which
you would not answer ?
Mr. Dean. The nature of the interrogatory ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Dean. It concerned the organizations which this committee is
set up to investigate, I assume. I would like at this time to ask the
committee if they would rule upon the motion that my counsel, Mr.
Wistrand, ])repared for me.
Mr. Clardy, We have had them for several days. Mr. Wistrand
placed them in our possession. They are in substance addressed to
the jurisdiction of the committee, and they have been raised in the
same form or substantially so many times. Those will be denied.
Mr. Dean. I wonder if the other members of the committee have
had an opportunity to pass on that, Mr. Chairman,
Mr. Clardy. I passed tliem around the day that they got them.
They looked them over.
Mr. Dean, I am concerned
Mr. Clardy. We had, as a matter of fact, some 5 separate ones all
identical presented to us at one time.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Clardy. The motion is denied.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
Mr. Dean. The reason I renew my request is that the composition of
the committee has changed, and I would appreciate a ruling from the
committee sitting en banc. I know Mr. Doyle has just arrived, and
I don't know whether he has given my motion any consideration or
not.
Mr. Clardy. Well, the motion was submitted to us, we considered it.
It will be taken under further consideration, as they always are. They
will be in the file, and if at any time subsequent the entire committee
decides to overrule the action of the subcommittee, that will be duly
noted in the record.
Mr. Dean. I would like to state in answer to the question that
Mr. Tavenner has directed to me at this time that I do have certain
legal objections to the proceedings which as an attorney I would like
to make, and I believe that since the committee consists of attorneys,
that they would be glad to indulge me that time to make those objec-
tions.
Mr. Clardy. Well, let m.e inquire. To start with, vour motion was
a motion to quash the subpena, and of course the subpena will not be
quashed. Furthermore, it would be a moot problem. You are here,
you are before us, and any action that we may take on that would
. i3e of no moment anyhow, but now are you addressing yourself to
something else?
Mr. Dean. Yes, IMr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Well, then, as questions are addressed to you, you have
the right, and we will give you the privilege, of stating any objection
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5655
that you have to the particular question as it comes along. As to
your making or reading any statement in advance of answering ques-
tions, that custom and that practice is not permitted. That is not
to say that you may not raise any and all proper objections to ques-
tions as we go along. But no prepared statement will be read into
the record unless you answer the questions, not refuse to answer them,
and then only if the committee considers what you want to read per-
tinent to the inquiry, and at the conclusion of the hearing.
Mr. Dean. Well, I would like to say to that, Mr. Chairman, that
it is not a prepared statement. It is a motion which has been filed
with this committee, and I assume has been made a part of this pro-
ceedings. I am not contesting the question of the service of the sub-
pena. I know that I was not properly informed of the adjourned
date of the hearing.
Mr. Claedy. I must dispute you there, but you can make that con-
tention if you wish.
Mr. Dean. I am not making that contention because I am here;
but I do have other objections that do not go to the validity of the
process or the service of the subpena.
Mr. Claedy. What is involved ?
Mr. Dean. Well, it concerns the constitutional basis of the com-
mittee, which I am very interested in, and I would like to make a
statement concerning the constitutional basis of the committee.
Mr. Doyle. I would say to the gentleman that the high courts have
ruled on that, and I think, Mr. Chairman, file the gentleman's state-
ment with us, but we are not going to change our position in view of
the high courts' decision that the committee's point is constitutional.
The Supreme Court of the land is the best court I have ever heard of,
not you or me, so why take the time to make an argument which will
not change our tactic, don't you see.
Mr. Clardy. Yes; the subcommittee is unanimous on the position.
If you have something in w^riting you would like to file with us, we
will accept it, but we must insist that the counsel go forward with the
questions at this time with the understanding you may raise proper
objections as we go along.
Mr. Dean. All right, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please, sir. Do j^ou
recall the question ?
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Dean. Would you have the question reread ?
Mr. Tavenner. I will restate it.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Dean. All right, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. My question was : W^ill you tell the committee,
please, what the nature of the interrogatory was which you refused
to answer.
Mr. Dean. No; I do not feel at liberty to do that, sir. The com-
munication was in the form of restricted material, and as to any of
the details of the statement I am not at liberty to disclose them.
Mr. Clardy. Are you speaking now of the Presidential directive?
Mr. Dean. No; I am not referring to the law concerned. I am
referring to Mr. Tavenner's question as to the nature of the inter-
rogatories which were submitted to me.
5656 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. Well, I know, but I understood you to raise the objec-
tion that it was restricted material, and my question was: Are you
relying on the Presidential directive about the release of certain classes
of classified material ?
Mr. Dean. No ; I am not relying upon that
INIr. Clardy. "\'Vlien or what are you^ •
Mr. Deax. I am relying upon the communication I received with
the interrogatories which instructed me that they were confidential
and that their nature could not be disclosed, and that is my grounds
for my reliance.
Mr. Clardy. Well, that order had to do only with an unauthorized
release ; not to the Congress of the United States. I shall direct you
to answer that question,
Mr. Dean. Well, under direction — and I want it clearly understood
that this is being answered solely under direction — I would like to
state that the interrogatories asked me whether I had ever been as-
sociated with the American Youth for Democratic Action, whether I
had ever been associated with the National Lawyers' Guild, and wheth-
er I had ever been associated- — whether I had ever asked anyone to
attend a Communist meeting.
Mr. Clardy. And those were the inquiries or interrogatories that
you did not answer ; is that correct ?
Mr. Dean. That is correct. I felt that they had no right to make
those inquiries.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you also asked the question whether or not
you had ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dean. No ; I was not, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you been a member of the Communist Party
prior to the time that you received that interrogatory ?
Mr. Dean. I will make this statement, that I feel as a witness who
has been subpenaed here, who has not appeared voluntarily, that the
question must h^ answered in this way, that the Communist Party,
to my knowledge, has been included among those organizations which
are considered by this committee and the Attorney General as a sub-
versive organization. Now I believe that the members of this com-
mittee, since they are attorneys, will probably be agreeable — ^will agree
with the statement that I feel that anv citizen who has had associa-
tions or if they have not had, if they feel that there is evidence thnt
this committee has which would end to link them with the Communist
Party, would be very foolish to answer the questions directed at their
relationship or associations with the Communist Party.
Now, I refuse to answer that question for all of the constitutional
grounds which I include in my motion to quash the subpena.
Mr. Tavenner. Does that include specifically the fifth amendment?
Mr. Dean. I would like to state my grounds, if I may.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Clardy. Witness, since you know we all three of us are attor-
neys, it will not be necessary for you to argue them. You may state
them. You may take it for granted that we have a well-grounded
knowledge of what the various amendments contain and what they
mean, so if you tell us which ones you are relying on, you will be fully
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5657
protected. You will have the advantage of any argument you wish to
make at any time in the future.
Mr. Deax. I shall be very brief.
Mr. Clardy. Thank you.
Mr. Dean. I would like to ask a question of the committee as to
whetlier there was majority approval to conduct the investigation. Is
there majority approval of the committee to conduct this investiga-
tion ?
]Mr. Clardy. I didn't get the import of that because there is a little
leverberation here. May I assure you, sir, under the rules of the com-
mittee that applies in this instance, as all others, no investigation is
commenced without the prior approval of the vote of the entire com-
mittee, and I might tell you, we do not undertake them unless we have
unanimous vote, although we can do so by a majority. That applies
here and in every other instance, despite the left-wing propaganda to
the contrary.
Now, proceed.
Mr. Dean. Well, I would like to ask the committee, when this hear-
ing commenced
Mr. Clardy. Wait a moment. You are supposed to be answering
questions. I have answered that one, but from here on out I think you
had better answer.
Mr. Dean. The reason why I ask that, sir, is that under the rules it
states that the purpose will be set forth, and since I wasn't here at the
commencement of the hearing, I
Mr. Clardy. The purpose of all these hearings is set forth in Public
Law 601, always, no deviation. However, you are reading from a rule
that applies only to the regulation of the internal affairs of the com-
mittee and has nothing to do with this public hearing.
Mr. Dean. Well, I had assumed that the rulings were promulgated
so that witnesses would know what type of conduct was expected of
them before the
Mr. Clardy. Public Law 601, ever since it has been on the books,
quite a while now, has served notice on everyone as to the purposes of
these hearings. We stay within that limitation.
( At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand. )
Mr. Clardy. We have been requested to go outside and explore
things that the Labor Committee and other committees should explore,
when some of the witnesses have been on the stand, but unfortunately
we can't go into them.
Now, will you proceed to ask your question, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. The witness has not answered the question. I can
ask it again.
Mr. Clardy. I wish you would because there has been so much that
happened.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
Mr. Tavenner. As soon as the witness has conferred with Coun-
sel — —
Mr. Clardy. Restate your question.
Mr. Tavenner. The question was whether or not you were or had
been a member of the Communist Partv at the time vou refused to
answer the questionnaire or interrogatories submitted to you by the
Marine Corps.
5658 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Dean, Well, in my answer to that question in wliich I am refus-
ing to answer the question I am stating my legal grounds for so refus-
ing, and one of my legal grounds is an objection to the wording of
Public Law 601 which charges this committee with the eluty of inves-
tigating subversive and un-American propaganda activities.
Now, my objection is that I feel those words are so vague, so con-
troversial, so subject to interpretation, that this committee is power-
less to proceed based upon that law.
Mr. Tavexnek. The Barsky case was a ver}' full consideration of
that very subject.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Clardy. Do you have any other objections ?
Mr. Dean. I rely upon the Bill of llights to the Constitution, upon
the first amendment, the fifth amendment, including the due process
clause, and the right not to be a witness against myself, and the other
amendments which are applicable to the rights of citizens as opposed
to the arbitrary power of government.
Mr. Clardy. Ask your next question.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time that you were at the University of
Michigan between January 1946 and February 1949 were you aware
of the existence of an organized group of the Communist Party at
that university ?
Mr. Dean. Mr. Tavenner, if your question is directed towards an
awareness that stems from knowledge of the press, of the radio, of
magazine articles, of a general knowledge that grows from what any
person will know, my answer is "Yes."
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the name of that group of the Communist
PartyJ
MrrDEAN. I said I was aware of the Communist activity from the
knowledge that anyone has from reading the press.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, were you aware that the name was the Ralph
Neafus Club of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dean. Not at that time ; no, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You were not aware at any time while you were
at the University of Michigan
Mr. Dean. I may have become aware. I believe it was well known
in the press at that time ; yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were ;^ou a member of it at any time ?
Mr. Dean. In answering that question, it is similar to the other
question which I invoked my privileges under the fifth amendment,
and I want to say, because I feel that there is some misunderstand-
ing, or might be, why I do, and that is this, that the Ralph Neafus
Club was referred to on several occasions in the Detroit hearings, and
I think it may have been referred to here. Now I was a student at
the University of Michigan. I feel that any question concerning
the Ralph Neafus Club, whether I know anything about it or not, is
a very poor question for me to answer for the reason that although
I do not fear conviction, I feel that if I give this committee evidence
which may tend to furnish a link in the evidence which is needed to
found a prosecution against me, that in view of the conduct of the
Attorney General's office, in view of the statement made by members
of this committee and the list that they have promulgated, that there
could very easily — and I feel that as a lawyer, I very reasonably and
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5659
in good faith, invoke the privilege under the fifth amendment which
provides that I do not have to furnish any evidence to anybody which
could be used to found a prosecution against me.
Now, I say I do not fear conviction for this reason, that in a court
of law I would have the advantage of the right of conyertation, the
riglit of cross-examination, the common law rules of evidence, which
would restrict most of the material that has been introduced here.
I would have the right to subpena witnesses to help defend me. I
would have a right to present before the body which is searching for
the truth facts within the framework of what lawyers especially have
come to regard as the American system of jurisprudence. I would
not have to face this sort of one-sided inquiry where people are smeared
by questions. You don't even have witnesses, and that is why I object.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, in view of all you have said and all the rights
you would have in court, then why do you fear to tell us the honest
truth, because obviously with all of the advantages you have recited,
when once you get into court, if you do, you would have ample pro-
tection from your own recitation.
Mr. Dean. Mr. Clardy, I have been very aware of what is going
in this country since the last war. I mean, I read quite a deal, I
read the daily newspaper, and I am quite acquainted with the atti-
tude that people have in this country, and I don't agree with it; I
think that the day will come when we will be able to settle our differ-
ences, when we will be able to trust our neighbors, we will be able to
vote at the polls and decide all the issues that we want to decide in
that way, but as long as some people are being persecuted, that are
sent to jail for their beliefs, I feel that a person is very unwise, and
as a lawyer I think that you will agree with me, that if I know any-
thing or not, that it is a very wise person who claims the privilege of
the fifth amendment today.
Mr. Clardy. No, I do not agree with you. No honest person giving
a truthful answer need fear anytliing at the hands of his (Tovernment.
I differ violently with you, sir. You are ill advised as a lawyer to try
to convince them in tliis community that yours is a sound stand. It
definitely is not.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean and
Mr, Magee.)
Mr. Clardy. Will you proceed with your questions ?
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of the membership
report of student organizations for the spring semester 19-1:6-47 at
t]ie University of Michigan relating to the Michigan Youth for Demo-
cratic Action. Will you examine it, please? Will you look at line
6 and tell the committee, please, whose name appears there.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand and Mr.
Charles Dean.)
Mr. Clardy. Is there a question pending, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavennek. Yes, sir.
(At this point ]\Ir. Dean conferred with Mr. Cliarles Dean, Mr.
Selby , and Mr. Newblatt. )
( At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wi strand. )
Mr. Dean. I have never seen this document before.
Mr. Tavenner. That is not an answer to my question. Do you
recall the question ?
5660 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Dean. No.
Mr. Tavenner. My question was, Will you examine line 6 of the
document and state whose name appears there ?
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine it, please?
Mr. Dean. I have examined it, Mr. Tavenner. I would like to
say that this is your exhibit. I have never seen it before. If you wish
anything read from it, I think that you should.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, he hasn't asked you to read it. He has merely
asked you to inspect it and tell us about one little simple thing. Now,
are you refusing to do that ?
Mr. Dean. I am, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it not true that on line 6 of that record of mem-
bership that there appears the name Max Dean ?
Mr. Dean. Is that question directed at me ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Dean. Well, as I stated before, it is your exhibit, and I believe
if you wish any evidence to be read into the record from it, that you
should do that.
Mr. Clardy. He is not asking you to read anything. He is asking
you if it isn't a fact, however, that your name. Max Dean, does appear
on a certain line of that particular piece of paper.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Doyle. May I ask the young lawyer there, you certainly don't
object to the form of that question on the ground that it would be
incompetent in a court of law ?
Mr. Dean. Yes, I do. I do not think it has been authenticated or
identified, and I object.
Mr. Doyle. It is only a question of whether or not a name appears
there.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand and Mr.
Magee. )
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please answer the question, if you are
ready ?
Mr. Dean. Well, I feel that it is a question of principle here, of
legal procedure, and there has been no identification or authentica-
tion of this document.
Mr. Doyle. May I interrupt? You know full well this is not a
court of law and we don't pretend to be. Mr. Chairman, I move the
witness be instructed to answer.
Mr. Clardy. You are, and
Mr. Doyle. I think it is a frivolous way to answer that question,
I am frank to say.
Mr. Clardy. It is more than frivolous. I think you have had
enough experience as a lawyer to recognize contempt when you see it.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Clardy. In this instance we are merely asking you if it isn't
a fact that the name Max Dean appears on a certain line on that
document.
Mr. Dean. On line 6 the name Dean, Max appears.
Mr. Tavenner. I am sorry, I did not understand.
Mr. Dean. Dean comma Max.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5661
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of that organization in 1946?
Mr. Dean. What organization are you referring to, sir ?
Mr. Tavenner. The heading of which appears at the top of the
page, Michigan Youth for Democratic Action.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred vt^ith Mr. Charles Dean and
Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Dean. It is my understanding that that organization is listed
on the Attorney General's list, and therefore I invoke my privelege
under the fifth amendment and decline to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the IMicliigan Youth for Democratic Action
an affiliate of the American Youth for Democracy ?
Mr. Dean. I rest upon my privilege under the fifth amendment not
to answer that question for the reasons I have stated previously.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't the reason for your refusal to answer the
interrogatories submitted to you by the Marine Corps the fact that
you were a member of the American Youth for Democracy at the
University of Michigan and that that organization was an affiliate of
the American Youth for Democracy ?
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Magee.)
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
Mr. Dean. I would like to say in answer to that question that the
organization was, to my knowledge, one that is listed on the Attor-
ney General's list and that, as I recall it, there were many organiza-
tions on the University of Michigan campus which were authorized
by the dean of students, and these organizations were given the privi-
leges of the university ; they were afforded the right to use university
property; they had the right to use the men's union and other build-
ings, and as a condition of that right these organizations were re-
quired to file lists of students with the dean of students office. Now
there are a very many organizations on the University of Michigan
campus, and I find that many of them have also been listed on the
Attorney General's list. Now, because of that listing I refuse to an-
swer any questions in connection with that organization, and I rely
upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the Federal Constitu-
tion in so doing.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Jack Gore appear before the committee of the
student affairs and argue the matter and present data on the Ameri-
can Youth for Democracy in connection with a request for the Michi-
gan Youth for Democratic Action to become affiliated with it ?
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Dean. I have no knowledge of that sir,
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer in evidence for identification only
the photostatic copy of the membership report referred to and ask
that it be marked "Dean exhibit No. 1," and I desire also to introduce
in evidence as Dean exhibit No. 2, minutes of the meetings of the com-
mittee of student council affairs for January 24, 1946, reflecting that
Mr. Gore appeared before the committee to present data regarding
affiliation with the American Youth for Democracy.
Mr. Clardy. They will be received.
(Photostatic copy of membership report, marked "Dean exhibit No.
1," for identification, was received in evidence.) ^
5662 COACMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
(Minutes of meetings of committee of student council affairs for
January 24, 1946, marked "Dean exhibit No. 2," was received in evi-
dence.) ^
Mr. Tavknxer. I desire now also to offer in evidence for identifica-
tion a letter of xVpril 2G, 1947, signed Alexander C. Ruthven, ad-
dressed to Miss Harriet Ratner, president of the Michigan Youth for
Democratic Action, Ann Arbor, ]\Iich., which reads as follows :
Dear Miss Ratner : Evidence which it is impossible to disregard indicates
that the x\merican Youth for Democracy has become conspicuously identified
with Communist influences. This has resulted in widespread criticism of its
activities, not only by the general public, but by the law enforcement agencies
of the Government of the United States.
The Michigan Youth for Democratic Action is an affiliate of the American
Youth for Democracy. In the circumstances, therefore, the Michigan Youth
for Democratic Action is performing a disservice to the educational and other
interests of the University of Michigan. For this reason its recognition as a
university student organization is hereby withdrawn.
Were you acquainted with Jack Gore in 1946 ?
Mr. De.\n. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I
have stated, for the same reasons that I have stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Did vou become a member of an organization on
the campus known as committee for civil rights ?
Mr. Dean. I have no recollection. I know that I was very inter-
ested in civil rights, and it may be that I did. I don't recall it.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of the membership list
for the committee of the uniA^ersity, and I will ask you to examine it
and see if it does not refresh your recollection ?
Mr. Dean. Does it refresh my recollection? I note on the head of
the document the words "memi3ership list for the Committee of the
Civil Rights Congress" and congress is deleted. Now, to my informa-
tion the Civil Rights Congress has been characterized as a subversive
organization by the Attorney General of the United States, and I be-
lieve that it has been named as such by this committee and by other
governmental asrencies. Now, making that statement does not mean
to imply that I agree in anyway with the decision made by those
governmental agencies, but because of their decision I refuse to an-
swer the question and base my refusal upon my right against self-
incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. As a matter of fact, the designation of that group, the
Committee for Civil Rights was changed to that of Civil Rights Con-
gress, was it not, as shown from the top of the document ?
' I have misstated that, it was changed from Civil Rights Congress
to that of Committee for Civil Rights.
Mr. Dean. It appears so from the document, sir.
Mr. Taat.nner. Do you recall why that was done ?
Mr. Dean. I have no independent recollection of this.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you also a member of the National Lawyers'
Guild while a student at the University of Michigan ?
Mr. Dean. I believe that the National Lawyers' Guild is presently
litigating the right of the Attorney General to determine it to be a sub-
versive organization in the District Court of Columbia. I think they
were given an injunction by the circuit court of appeals enjoining tJie
1 Retained in committee files.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5663
Attorney General from listing them as a subversive organization until
there could be final hearings on the merits as to where the law under
which he acted was constitutional or not. Now because of the attempt
made by the Attorney (leneral to name the National Lawyers' Guild a
subversive organization, I am refusing to answer that question. Now,
in doing so I do not want anyone on this committee to get the impres-
sion that I feel that the National Lawyers' Guild is anything other
than an honorable bar association, on the same plane as the American
Bar Association.
Mr. Clardy. I want the record to show that I emphatically differ
with your statement on that score, sir, but I want to also point out
definitely that if you are not a member of that organization, it doesn't
make a bit of difference what the Attorney General may say. If you
have any apprehensions of being convicted of a crime because you
belong to the organization, I tliink as a lawyer you must know better.
(At this point IMr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with IMr. Magee.)
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. AVill you tell the committee, please, whether or not
the Communist Party endeavored to exercise any influence or control
over any one of the organizations which I have discussed with you,
namely, the ]\Iichigan Youth for Democratic Action, the Committee for
Civil Rights, and the National Lawyers' Guild ?
Mr. Dean. INIr. Tavenner, I want to repeat the objection I made
before and the reasons in refusing to answer that question.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with IMr. Selby.)
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have occasion in the year 1949 to travel
abroad ?
Mr. Dean. Yes, I did.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Did you apply for a passport on the I7th day of
January 1949 ?
Mr. Dean. I applied for a passport. I do not recall the date.
Mr. Ta\t.nner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a passport bearing
the date of January 17, 1949, and ask you to state whether or not you
recognize it as a copy of your passport?
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
Mr. Dean. The documents which you presented to me and which I
now hold in my hand appear to be an application for a passport by
myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Where does it state that you intended to travel.
You will see it on the second page. In what countries ?
Mr. Dean. To France, possibly a visit to England, Spain, and Italy.
Mr. Ta^t5nner. In what countries did you travel under the pass-
port that was issued on that application?
Mr. Dean. I traveled to France, to Switzerland, to Austria, to
Hungary, to Italy, and that is all.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your purpose in traveling to Hungary?
Mr. Dean. I was very curious as to what was going on in Hungary.
Mr. Taahenner. What was it that aroused your curiosity?
Mr. Dean. The comment in the press.
Mr. Taa^nner. Comment regarding what?
5664 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Dean. I think the reason is probably the same reason that Mr.
Clardy made his trip abroad, and I think it is a desire to go to o foreign
country. I would like to state that as long as I can remember I have
wanted to travel abroad and especially to Europe.
Mr, Tavennek. Well, to get right at the point, did you attend the
Second World Youth Congress at Budapest?
Mr. Dean. I don't recognize the name. I attended the Second
World Youth Festival, I believe it was.
Mr, Ta\^nner. Festival?
Mr. Dean. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. What was that?
Mr. Dean. It was a youth festival of organizations all over the
world that attended in Budapest.
Mr. Clardy. It was a Communist meeting, wasn't it ?
Mr. Dean. I am not competent to give that answer that you desire
in that respect. I feel that my opinion would be based on conjecture.
It would have no probative value. I would not be willing to charac-
terize it as such. There were people there from all over the world.
Mr. Doyle, Did you go as a representative or a delegate from any
organization in the United States? If you did, what group or organ-
ization ?
(Representative Harold H, Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Dean. I would like to explain for the committee's information
that I was graduated from law school in 1949, and that I planned
on getting married, and I did so get married in March, and immedi-
ately following my marriage I took the bar examination, and as soon
thereafter, I had arranged for transportation to Europe, and while
in Europe I had an opportunity to go to Hungary, As you know,
at that time, American citizens could not travel to Yugoslavia, but
anywhere else in Europe it was perfectly legal, I had no reason to
believe that subsequently at a hearing like this that I would have to
account for it, I as thousands of other American citizens have done
have traveled to countries all over the world.
Mr. Clardy. Well, witness, we wouldn't ask you that question if
we didn't have reason to believe that you were actually intending to
visit this Communist congress as a representative of the Communist
group in this country. That question would not have been addressed
to you if we did not have reason to believe that that was the probable
fact. Now, you are given an opportunity to say all you want about it.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr, Charles Dean.)
Mr, Dean, I would like to say that where it asked for countries to
be visited I put down France, possibly visit to England, Spain, and
Italy, I did not go to England, as much as I would have liked to,
I did not go to Spain. I did go to Italy three times. Now I also
went to Switzerland, which was not on my list, and I went to Austria
which was not on my list. I was on this trip for 15 months. The
trip to Budapest was 2 weeks. I feel that it is improper, I mean
it is not right actually to have to answer these questions, but I will
because I have a reputation that I want to protect, and I feel that
this hearing will be very harmful to me, and therefore I answer these
questions that I can.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5665
Mr. Doyle. May I say this, in asking you a question I assume that
you knew you were going to attend the festival before you left this
country, or if you didn't know it before you left, you got word while
you were in travel and that you had the honor or responsibility of
representing some American group because you have stated that it
was a world group. It was a conference, so I am just asking you
what your honor was.
^At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Magee.)
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
Mr. Dean. Well, I want to explain it in this way: That I would
like to have traveled to many countries. I was in France possibly 3
months, and to the best of my recollection it must have occurred in
this way: That the opportunity presented itself. You loiow, the
situation in France is quite different than it is here. I mean people
feel differently about things. I mean, to my recollection the Com-
munist Party must have got 25 percent of the vote. I mean they don't
have this atmosphere, so there were advertisements all over Paris
concerning this festival. Now, my funds were limited and this was
an opportunity to make a trip to Hungary, and I wanted to go and
my wife went with me. It was part of an extended honeymoon, and
we made the trip.
Mr. Clardy. Who financed the trip to the festival ?
Mr. Dean. We did, out of our own funds.
Mr. Clardy. Nobody paid any portion of it at all.
Mr. Dean. Who do you mean, sir ?
Mr. Clardy. I mean just that, did any organization, any group,
any person pay any part of it ?
Ml-. Dean. Absolutely not.
Mr. Clardy. None whatever ?
Mr. Dean. None whatever.
Mr. Doyle. Now may I ask you to come back to my original ques-
tion. In attending this festival did you go as a delegate or representa-
tive or did you represent over there as a delegate or representative
from any American youth or young persons' organization.
Mr. Dean. To the best of my recollection I think that whatever
country you came from, that you were characterized as an American
delegate or a Swiss delegate. Now, that is as far as I can recall any
characterization of delegate status.
Mr. Doyle. I am not asking what they designated you as. I am
asking you what you were representing. Were you representing some
group in the United States ?
Mr. Dean. No ; I was not.
Mr. Doyle. You weren't sent as a delegate of any group of the
United States ?
Mr. Dean. Not to the best of my recollection ; I was not.
Mr. Doyle. You certainly would remember that wonderful festival
over there and whether or not you went as a delegate.
Mr. Dean. Well, I primarily wanted to go to Hungary, and I don't
recall— I went to an organization in Paris — to the best of my recollec-
tion, that was advertised, and I think that I may have corresponded
with the people they told me to go to qualify, and I think I may
have done that, but I have no independent recollection as to
48861—54 — pt. 9-
5666 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Doyle. Who did they tell you to correspond with in the United
States in order to qualify, and who did you correspond with in the
United States in order to qualify ?
Mr. Deax. I do not recall.
Mr. Doyle. You don't?
Mr. Dean. I do not.
Mr. Doyie. How many years ago was that ?
Mr. Dean. That must have been 5 j^ears ago.
Mr. Doyle. You had just been married and taken her abroad to a
festival and you don't remember how you got there ?
Mr. Dean. I remember very well how I went. I don't recall the
details of all the arrangements, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I withdraw that last part, Mr. Chairman. I just can't
conceive of a young man of your brilliancy not remembering who you
corresponded with in the United States 5 years ago in order to be an
official delegate to that conference.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Magee and Mr. Charles
Dean.)
Mr. Doyle. See if you can't scratch your memory a little bit and
help us out on that, please.
Mr. Dean. I want to state that I am answering these questions as
fully and fairly and as honestly as I can. Now, when I say that I do
not recollect, that is a fact, and I do not recollect. You see, I did not
attach the terrible significance to my deeds that you seem to attach.
Mr. Doyle. Well, it so happens that we have knowledge of the fact
that certain youth festivals and conferences over there about those
years were the direct fountainhead of pretty active young Communist
activity in the Ignited States, so our question was not impertinent. It
is very important, because you were present right at that fountain-
head.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you address your letter to the city of Detroit ?
Mr. Dean. What was that, sir?
Mr. Tavenner. I say did you address the letter to which you re-
ferred to the city of Detroit?
Mr. Dean. What letter are you referring to?
Mr. Tavenner. The letter that you referred to in regard to your
appointment as a delegate.
Mr. Dean. Well, I have never made the statement that I was ap-
pointed a delegate. I said that the people Avho went referred to each
other as delegates from the country from which they came.
Mr. Clardy. You said you had to qualify, and in order to qualify to
get in, you had written a letter to someone.
Mr. Dean. I said that I may have, that I may have written a letter.
I do not recall. I do not have an independent recollection.
INIr. Clardy. Well, do you recall that you couldn't get into the festi-
val unless you did qualify, as you term it?
Mr. Dean. My recollection, as near as I can remember, is that the
people who attended the festival applied for visas or passports in the
country of their origin and that I was in France at the time, and to
the best of my recollection I had to make no arrangements other than
apply for a Hungarian visa at the Hungarian consulate in Paris. Now
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5667
as to the possibility tliat I may have corresponded with someone, that
is possible, bnt I do not recall it.
Mr. Clardt. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Commnnist Party?
Mr. Dean. That question is similar to the ones that I answered con-
cerning the student organizations at the University of Michigan, and
I feel that in view of the many Smith Act convictions, that a person,
whether he has been a member or not, would be very unwise to answer
the question for fear that he may be subjected to an unwarranted prose-
cution.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time in the past?
Mr. Dean. And I give the same answer to that question that I have
given to earlier questions.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Do either of you gentlemen have any additional ques-
tions ?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Clardy. Very well.
Mr. Doyle. Just a moment.
Mr, Clardy. I beg your pardon. I thought you said no questions.
1 am getting a little bit hasty here.
Mr. Doyle. I know you were in the room here when I was ques-
tioning Max Dean just ahead of you.
Mr. Dean. I am Max Dean, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I beg your pardon with Mr. Leitson. I think you were
here and heard my discussion with him. Did you hear that, my dis-
cussion with him ?
Mr. Dean. Yes ; I did, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I think I will not take time, Mr. Chairman, with this
young lawyer in the same manner.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Doyle. If you will pay attention to me for a minute, I will
a})preciate it, but if you want to consult with counsel, go ahead, and
when you are through listen to me for just 1 minute, will you?
Mr. Dean. All right, sir.
(At this point Mr. Dean conferred with Mr. Charles Dean.)
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Doyle.
INIr.' Doyle. In view of the fact that you heard my extemporaneous
remarks to Mr. Leitson, I will not take the time of the committee or of
distinguished counsel to repeat them, excepting may I urge you, young
man, as a member of the bar, and I am the same, as you know, that if
you have no knowledge of the fact that the American Communist
Party, the underground corps, is today advocating the forceful and
violent overthrow of our form of government as a result of those 11
or 12 jury case convictions in Federal court in the last 2 years in our
country. If you don't think that is significant enough, in your pro-
fessional and private life, if that doesn't jeopardize in your mind our
country sufficiently to make you get out and vigorously oppose the
philosophy of the American Conmiunist Party, then I don't understand
what in God's name your oath as a member of the bar means. I am
saying that very earnestly and very sincerely to you. I am not criti-
cizing you, believe me, but I am saying to you as an elder American
5668 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
citizen, as a Member of Congress, as a member of the American bar
and State bar.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Doyle. I am on the State bar legislative committee of the
State Bar of California right now and have been for several years,
even though I have been in Washington 8 years, I want to urge you
to put yourself in the position, as promptly as you can, where you are
known as a leader against the Communist conspiracy. One thing
more. We have frequent cases where young men your age and young
ladies your age come before this committee and frankly say, sure, I
was a member of the Communist Party back in 1947, and 1948, sure
I was a member of the Communist cell at the University of Michigan
or Pennsylvania or Chicago or Harvard or some place else, yes, I
was studying the philosophy of Karl Marx. I was interested as a
student in philosophy, social sciences, but I got my belly full when
I saw what it resulted in, and I am here to help the United States
Congress clean up on them. Now, that is the position I hope that the
young people of America will get into that have been temporarily
misguided and misled by the Communist philosophy. I am not trying
to lecture you personally, sir. I am just speaking out of the heart
and mind. You happen to be in the witness chair.
Mr. Dean. Well, Mr. Doyle, may I say this : That I have never ad-
vocated the overthrow of this Government by force and violence.
Mr. Doyle. I feel that is true, sir, but let me be equally frank with
you. I feel you have been so darned close to some of those that have,
see, and that still do, sir. If you aren't careful, some of that mud
and slime and treason will rub off on you.
Mr. Dean. I wanted to add that if I ever have any knowledge of
anyone who does advocate force and violence, that I will acquaint the
proper authorities.
Mr. Clardy. Well, if you happen to have any relationship whatso-
ever to the Communist Party, you must know that that group advo-
cates precisely what Congressman Doyle is talking about. Don't kid
yourself into thinking that you can be a member or that you can asso-
ciate with it and not go along with that pliilosophy, because that is
the heart and tenor. Witness dismissed. Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Martin Trachtenberg.
Mr. Clardy. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, tlie whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I do.
Mr. Clardy. Be seated. Counsel will identify himself.
Mr. Probe. My name is Bernard Probe, office of the National Bank
Building, Detroit.
TESTIMONY OF MARTIN TRACHTENBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, BERNARD PROBE
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Martin Trachtenberg.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name, please ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. T-r-a-c-h-t-e-n-b-e-r-g, M-a-r-t-i-n.
COMIVTUlSriST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5669
Mr. Tavenner. AVhat relation are you, if any, to Alexander
Trachtenberg ?
Mr, Trachtenberg. Will you identify that person, please?
Mr. Clardy. Are you related to anyone by the name of Alexander
Trachtenberg ?
( At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe. )
Mr. Trachtenberg. You will have to make a more definite relation-
ship there. I have relatives throughout the country. I may be fatally
related, although I am not sure, so I wish you would make a more
definite relationship, please.
Mr, Clardy, We are having you establish that, Witness. Proceed,
Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. The Alexander Trachtenberg to whom you refer
has been a member of the national c/ommittee of the Communist Party
in the United States.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Would you please make a definite relationship
of this person to me so I can know what relationship you are talking
about ?
Mr. Tavenner. I think you are in a better position to know rela-
tionship than I am. I have identified the individual, and I am asking
you to state now whether or not there is any relationship between
you and him ?
Mr, Trachtenberg. The reason I am raising these questions is that
certain General Motors foremen have been injecting into the plant tliat
this man is my father. INIy father has been dead for 10 years. There-
fore, who knows what stoolpio-eon you may get up here to testify that
he is some distant relationship to me, so I wish you would make a
more definite relationship so I can answer this question effectively.
Mr, Tavenner, I suggest, Mr, Chairman, you direct the witness to
answer,
Mr. Clardy, Yes ; I direct that you answer that question.
(At this point Mr, Trachtenberg conferred with Mr, Probe,)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I would like to refuse to answer that question
on the following grounds : First, I feel that
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I would like to refuse that question on the fol-
lowing ground. We may as well get this straight right now. I will
not answer any questions relating to any individuals, organizations
or so forth because I in turn feel I cannot answer any questions on the
following grounds
Mr. Clardy. May we pause just a moment. That and so forth
covers every question that could possibly be asked, so are you saying
you are not going to answer any more questions of the committee ?
Mr. Track rENBERG. I am giving my reasons why I cannot answer
this question, not any more questions.
Mr, Clardy. Well, you made a very broad statement that it included
anything including the time of day and I want to see if you are really
meaning it that way or if you are just being facetious with us.
Mr. Trachtenberg. No, this committee throws around a lot of
broad statements. I think you could excuse me one.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Give your reasons.
Mr. Trachtenberg. I have here the articles of the Bill of Rights,
first 10 amendments, and you gentlemen have stated that you are mem-
5670 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
bers of the bar, a couple of times today, so I am sure that you are
familiar with these.
Mr. Clardy. I think we can take that for granted.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Article 1 — well sometimes I can't the way you
abuse the privileges.
Mr. Clardy. You don't have to read them. You are invoking all
of the 10 articles, are you?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Please don't put words in my moutli. Is this
my hearing or is it yours?
Mr, Clardy. Well, I am conducting it, as you may know.
Mr. Trachtj:nberg. This is my hearing.
Mr. Clardy. Listen to me, please. Are you invoking all 10 of the
amendments ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I am invoking all 10 of the amendments, the
entire Constitution, which you men are disavowing right here in this
hearing room, and anything else that tlie American people feel that
you people are throwing into the wind.
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. Just a minute, please. You can't sit
there before a committee that I am on and tell me that I am disavow-
ing the United States Constitution.
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
Mr. Doyle. Without me stopping you because it is absolutely false.
It is insulting, and you know it.
Mr. Clardy. Of course it was intended that way, but mv hide is
getting pretty tough, I have had so many of those barbs. Yours ought
to be tougher after all the years you have been on it here.
Mr. Tavenner. When and wliere were you born ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Jersey City, N. J., 1923, June 3.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?
Mr. Trachtenberg. 1805 West Pasadena.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Pasadena?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Pasadena, not California, Mr. Doyle, Flint. By
the way, how is Csdifornia, far away?
Mr. Doyle. Beautiful, best State in the Union.
Mr. Clardy. That statement is out of order, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Don't strike it from the record.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Just a little friendly conversation.
Mr. Clardy. I will say hurray for Michigan riglit now. Proceed,
Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I am an employee of Buick ]\Iotor Co.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been emploved by Buick Motor
Co. ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Approximately five years.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you begin your employment? Tliat
would be in 1949, I assume, but what month during the year, or was
it in 1948?
Mr. Trachtenberg. That was in May 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the connnittee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Well, before this committee I feel that this is a
dangerous statement because I understand that you know that Con-
gressman Velde made the statement that the basis of all communism
COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5671
and socialism influences is the education of the people. Wlien he
voted against mobile library service ior the rural areas, so I feel that
3"ou fellows are really going for
Mr, Clardy, Witness, witness, you know that that has no relation-
ship whatever to the question. You are being deliberately imperti-
nent. You know it ; w^e know it. The audience knows it. See if you
can't be a gentleman from here on out. Will you proceed, Mr. Taven-
ner. If it proves difficult for j'ou, maj-^be we can help you.
jMr. Tavenxek. Tell the committee, please, what your
Mr. Tr^vchtenberg. Chairman
Mr. Clardt. Never mind, wait until the question is submitted and
we w^ill ask you to answer it.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Well, I would say
Mr. CLAiiDY. I enjoin you to silence. We are going to proceed with
the question. Now ask the question, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Tell the committee, please, what your educational
training has been.
Mr. Trachtenberg. I repeat I would normally relate this education
but under the circumstances, Velde will incriminate me.
]Mr. Clardy. If there is any incrimination, you will have to do it
yourself. Now, are you refusing to answer ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Are you making an inflammatory statement,
chairman ?
Mr. Clardy. Are you refusing to answer ?
(At this point JMr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I would like to consult counsel.
]Mr. Clardy. I tliink you should.
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
JMr. Trachtenberg. I have had approximately 2 years of college.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere ?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. Is this question pertinent to this inquiry ?
Mr. Clardy. It would not have been asked had it not been so deemed.
You are directed to answer it.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Then I use the privileges accorded me under
the Bill of Eights and the Constitution of the United States to refuse
to answer this question which you asked.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavennj:r. By that you mean it might tend to incriminate you
to state where you received your 2 years of college work.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Now, Mr.
Mr. Tavenner. Or approximately 2 years.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Mr. Tavenner, you fellows are lawyers. You
know that Bill of Eights was written to defend the innocent. What
are you talking about incrimination. If you guys got anything against
me, get me up before a court of legal procedure and press the charges
where I can cross-examine my accusers. "V^Hiat is all this business
about incriminating me? I am innocent and this Bill of Eights is
defending me against guj^s who plan to take my rights away, and so
I am refusing to answer that question on the entire Bill of Eights
especially the fifth amendment and the Constitution of the United
States.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask you, please, a pointblank question. Do I
understand that you are refusino; to answer this question of where
I
5672 COIVCMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
you went to college for 2 years on the grounds that it might incriminate
you in some way ^ I just want to make it clear, because I liave never
heard of such
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
Mr. Doyle. Never heard of such a foolish — I don't mean foolish.
Mr. Clardt, Absurd.
Mr. Tp>achtenberg. Absurd — I would like to answer that ques-
tion, Congressman.
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. TRiVCHTENBERG. I asked the question if this question was per-
tinent to the inquiry, and you said yes, and you meant your investigat-
ing subversive activities so obviously you got some kind of line that
some stoolpigeon will back it up so therefore I refuse to answer the
question. It is a simple thing. I am a straight guy. I am just trying
to get right to the point.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, the only way that you could in an}^ way be
incriminated would be for you to now acknowledge that you attended
some school dedicated to instruction in criminal activities. Now, if
there is any respectable institution in the United States that you
attended for a couple of year, you can't possibly incriminate yourself
by telling us so, and no implication can be drawn from it.
Mr. Trachtenberg. I am
Mr. Clardy. Now, will you tell us — you are directed: Will you
tell us the identity of the school you attended ?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I stated in the statement that I put out to the
workers in the shop that I will not cooperate with this committee in
any way because I feel it is destroying my rights as an American citi-
zen. Therefore I will not answer that question under the privileges
that I have previously stated.
Mr. Clardy. All right. Pass on, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner, Did you serve in the Armed Forces of the United
States during the period of the war ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. During what years ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. 1943 to 1946.
Mr. TaxTvNner. After 1946 did you attend school at the University
©f New Mexico ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Mr. Tavenner, are these questions directed in
confusing me or enlightening the inquest here. All I said, that I am
not going to name any names of anything, any organizations or any
people. I will not cooperate with this committee in destroying the
Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. TA^T.NNER. Did you attend college at any time prior to your
going into the armed services in 1943 ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds that I have stated before.
Mr. Doyle. Did I understand, counsel, the witness to say, that this
is an inquest. T thoiiofht that only referred to where tliere was a death.
You are not dead. You are very much alive, I take it.
Mr. Trachtenberg. I am sorry, Congressman. T cut off ])art of it.
I meant inquisition.
]\Ir. Doyle. I see.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5673
Mr, Clardy. Well, that is a familiar Communist word.
Mr. Doyle. At least that is between live people.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Shall we have a repartee here or is it only
limited to you ?
INIr. CivARDY. You seem to be doing pretty well.
Mr. Trachtenberg. You direct questions to me and I will try to
answer them to the best of my ability but I wish you wouldn't get in
your publicity points.
Mr. C'lardy. That is for your instruction. Now will you ask him
the question, Mr. Tavenner I
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to Flint ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. In the early part of 1949. That was not after
August by the way. There seems to be an attempt for a conspiracy
here, lining up every New Yorker that ever come to Flint at a certain
point, so
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you living before you came to Flint in
the early part of 1949 ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I will not give my dates or places — for the
reasons I have stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. You mentioned New York, were you living in New
York?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I will not give any locations, names, places, or
people, persons, organizations, or anything to abet this committee in
its attempt to destroy the labor unions of the United States and the
democracies that the people have now.
Mr. Doyle. Now just a minute, Mr. Counsel. I want to counter
your statement right there because it is
Mr. Trachtenberg. Are you asking me a question ?
Mr. Doyle. I am not asking you a question. I am telling you
something. You have made a statement just there which is not
founded on fact, and I believe you know it is not founded on fact.
Neither this committee nor I as a member of it certainly have any
intention directly or indirectly of harming organized labor of the
United States. You have heard me say in this room that I have
always received their endorsement, AFL and the right wing of the
CIO. The only people in organized labor that don't like me nor
this committee, generally speaking, are those who are there to take
over control if they can for the Communist conspiracy, and those
are the unpatriotic American citizens in labor unions that we are
after, the labor unions that don't want them.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Mr. Doyle, will you permit me the courtesy
of answering that ?
Mr. Clardy. No, witness, you will not be given any more time
than your conduct deserves, and it doesn't deserve that.
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, will you proceed with further ques-
tions. Let us go on and finish this as quickly as we can.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you arranged for employment at the Buick
plant prior to your arriving in Flint ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Mr. Tavenner, if you have ever worked for a
living — I am not implying anything here — but yon will understand,
and previously I have worked all over the country on naval bases
and ferry command bases. My patriotism wasn't questioned but if
5674 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
you have ever worked and you have a wife and a child coming up
you know that when you <ro look for a job you go to the place you
hear that they are hiring. In 1949 and anybody who was here will
testify to that, except maybe Mr. Clardy wasn't interested in unem-
ployment at that time, either, you will hear that Flint was the only
city in Michigan at that time that was employing people, so I came
to Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. Purely to get employment ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Well, what would I come to Flint for. "V^Hiat
are you implying ?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I want to ask you whether or not you came
here as part of any plan on the part of the Communist Party to infil-
trate the unions in Buick, in the Buick plant ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Now
Mr. Tavenner. That is to be specific.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Mr. Tavenner, counsel, when groups go to
destroy labor unions they don't come out and say they are going to
destroy the labor unions. When Hitler wanted to take over Ger-
many he hit at Communists and the Jews and knocked out labor
unions and set up his little dictatorship, stoolpigeons and Reichstag
fire and
Mr. Clardy. That has gone far enough.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Is this hitting too close, Congressman?
Mr. Clardy. That has gone far enough. You will subside sir; no
more Communist harangue from the witness stand. Now come back
and answer the question.
Mr. Trachtenberg. I would just like
Mr. Clardy. Your imprudence is beyond belief if I hadn't wit-
nessed it, now you will you confine yourself to answering the questions
directly ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I will answer the question, but I would just
like to say, you are putting words into my mouth and I protest this
entire hearing.
Mr. Clardy. I am not putting words into your mouth and I am not
trjnng to put anything into your head. I am telling you to answer
directly.
]Mr. Trachtenberg. You are not letting me get my views across,
I am sorry.
Mr. Clardy. I am not going to let you get Communist views across
any further todav. Now come down to earth. Answer the question.
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
Mr. Clardy. If vou refuse to do so, we are going to pass on, but
this tirade of yours has gone too far.
Mr. Trachtenberg. If this committee here considers it a plan to
support a family and get work and get food, then I guess I came in
on this sort of a plan, you see. because I had a familv coming up.
Mr. Clardy. Pass on, Mr. Tavenner. I will cor>sider ths^.t a refusal
to answer your question. I have a question, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. TA^^NNER. All right, sir.
Mr. Cr ARDY. I note you came to town at approximatolv the same
time, within a matter of weeks, when the several other colonizers came
in from New York. Were vou acquainted with the others who came
in at or about that same time ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5675
Mr. Traciitenherg. I notice you come to town just before November
11, election day. You didn't come during the tornado.
Mr. Clardy. Come back and answer the question.
Mr. Trachtenberg. If you want me to answer the question, wait
a second, will you. I told you before, Congressman, that I will not
answer any questions on any individuals, any organizations. I will not
be a part in this — book burning and constitutional burning of our
rights and liberties.
Mr. Clardy. You are refusing to answer then ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I am refusing to answer the question on the
grounds previously stated.
Mr, Clardy. Very well. Mr. Tavenner, proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you at any time the press chairman of the
Flint section of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I would like to say that that is a loaded ques-
tion. Have you stopped beating your wife ? . Would you answer that ?
Mr, Clardy, Witness, answer the question,
Mr, Trachtenberg, You want me to answer the question.
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
Mr. Clardy. I don't want to have to caution the audience again.
No demonstrations, either of approval or disapproval. The hour is
late. I am quite sure that tempers are getting short. That may excuse
some of the impertinence of the witness, but I can't permit the hear-
ing room in which the United States Congress is sitting to become
'disorderly ; the hearing to be conducted in any way other than orderly.
Please desist. I don't want to have to clear the hearing room,
Mr. Trachtenberg. As I answered this question, I would like to
make a point
Mr, Clardy, You answer the question.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Yes, I will make a point of Representative
T)oyle. He was insulted
Mr. Clardy. Witness, answer the question.
Mr, Trachtenberg. Well, all right. I would just like to say that —
'O. K,, I am answering it.
Mr. Clardy, Well, answer it.
Mv. Trachtenberg. I would like to say that you are violating the
first amendment when you are asking me to give any identity with
a group or an assembly or a person and thereby Mr. Doyle was com-
mitted because I accused him of violating the Constitution of the
Ignited States and the Rill of Rights, I think he should recognize
this, that you are violating my beliefs and my privileges here on the
statements of stool pigeons.
Mr. DoYT.E, May I say
Mr, Clardy. Pardon, INIr, Doyle, Come back to ground again.
Tiet him answer the question,
Mr, Trachtenberg, I refuse to answer that question that asks me
of any identity with persons, organizations, or — organizations, on the
privileges stated before.
Mr, Clardy, Mr, Tavenner, do you have any great list of questions
Mr, Tavenner. Not a great list, but I do have 1 or 2 I would like
to ask,
Mr, Clardy. Just ask the 1 or 2 because I think the conduct of the
witness will make it absolutely necessary for the chairman to make
5676 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
a recommendation to the full committee, and I don't think it is nec-
essary to go any further. Ask the next 1 or 2.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee has heard testimony that in July
1950 the Communist Party cells or groups were divided up into smaller
groups of four for security purposes. I want to ask you whether or
not if any time after such action was taken you were the literature
director for the Flint section of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Tkaciitenberg. I am surprised, you have not photostats like
McCarthy uses in his hearings and as you presented to the other mem-
bers that testified before this committee because — you have this in-
formation.
Mr. Clardy. Witness.
Mr. Trachtenberg. A stool pigeon has given you this information.
I can't face this stool pigeon.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, will you subside and answer the questions?
Mr. Trachtenberg. And you are accusing me. You know I am not
going to answer these questions because they are inciting questions.
You are using it for newspaper stuff, incite workers in the shops
against me, you refuse to give me a fair hearing, and I refuse to answer
this question on the grounds stated before and on the fifth amend-
ment privilege which you are depriving — which Velde stated that he
was going to attempt to deprive the American people of by taking it
out of the Constitution.
Mr. Clardy. Any more questions, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Did you engage in the activity of delivering Communist Party liter-
ature and information in 1952 to groups of the Communist Party that
had been divided in the manner that I mentioned within the area of
Flint?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I would just like to say that I can't answer any
of these questions, and I think Mr. Doyle better beware because he
is a Democrat and Clardy is identified with McCarthy ; he has identi-
fied himself, the past 20 years as 20 years of communism, treason, and
betrayal.
Mr. Clardy. Witness-
Mr. Trachtenberg. And I warn you, Mr. Doyle — I refuse
Mr. Clardy. Answer the question.
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer the question. I refuse to
answer the question on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, Mr. Doyle.
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
Mr. Doyle. In view of the man saying he warns me because I am a
Democrat, when you are through visiting with your counsel a minute,
I would like to answer your threat, of a sort. Wliat did you mean
when you said you were warning me, I am a Democrat ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Could I answer that?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, I want you to.
Mr. Trachtenberg. Well, fine. I would like to say that McCarthy
has come out and made an open statement that the Democratic Party
for the past 20 years has been a party of communism, betrayal, and
treason. Clardy over there has made the statement that he is Mc-
Carthy's kind of a S. O. B. Now I agree with that statement, and I
COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5677
say to you beware because today it is me and tomorrow it may be you
sitting over liere.
Mr. Doyle. Now just let me say this, please. The President of
the United States has frankly declared more than once recently that
he didn't agree with a certain Senator that you have named. Senator
Knowland, the Eepublican leader of the United States Senate has so
declared, and the Eepublican leadership in the House of Kepresenta-
tives has so declared. Now if you were referring to me as a Democrat,
as being afraid of something as a result of my working on this com-
mittee diligently and conscientiously, if that is what you have in your
mind, may I say to you that as an American citizen, as long as I am a
member of this committee, I am going to fight the sort of influences
that I find are undermining deliberately my constitutional form of
government, and the American Communist Party is — I am not afraid
of your warning, sir, either here or any place else, and I want you and
}our ilk to understand it. I want you to thoroughly understand it. I
resent very much your telling me, warning me because I am a Demo-
crat. I am an American Congressman first and a Democrat second.
Mr. Trachtenberg. I see everybody tried, true and condemned, and
the rest of it. Me and my ilk. You haven't heard me. You haven't
even attempted to hear me.
Mr. DoTLE. That language I condemn.
Mr. Trachtenberg. You know you condenni any language. I con-
demn this committee which is perpetrating a hoax on the American
people.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, do you have any further questions ?
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Probe.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated, that I will not identify any individuals, organiza-
tions, or the following, and I utilize the fifth amendment privilege
which is guaranteed to protect the innocent from such inquisition.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party before
you sought employment at the Buick plant ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. My record is open
Mr. Tavenner. In 1949?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I wish Mr. Clardy would make his record open,
the journal could
Mr. Clardy. Answer the question directly.
Mr. Trachtenberg. I know. I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds previously stated, that I will not identify myself with any in-
dividuals, organizations, and will not be a stoolpigeon and carry on tlie
purposes of this committee, and I say to this committee that if I could
face my accuser as the UAW article said, and Mr. Reuther stated
wdiich you left out conveniently, if I could face my accuser, if I could
have due process of law, then I will not utilize the fifth amendment
and will ]^ut the records on the board and see who the American will
reject and accept.
Mr. Doyle. May I just make this remark in this connection, ]\rr.
Chairman, the gentleman refers to his wish that he might have a chance
to cross-examine his accuser. May I say to you this : I am one of (he
]\Iembers of Congress that also wishes there could be some practical
Avay whereby witnesses named before this committee could have a
5678 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
chance within reason to face the people who charge them. But so far
we haven't been able to work that out. I know of no practical way
that this committee can function, may I say, where there can be any
practical right of cross-examination. If I could find any such way, I
would be for it 100 percent.
]\Ir, Tkachtenberg. "We have the Constitution of the United States
to guarantee that way against this inquisition.
]Mr. DoYi.E. Just in closing — but this committee is not finding any-
one guilty of anything.
Mr. Traciitenberg. My wife and me and my children have been
slandered in the paper, what do you mean, you are not finding me
guilty ?
Mr. Clardt. Witness.
Mr. Trachtenberg. The workers in the shop. General INIotors goons,
are instigating stuff against me today, and you are telling me that
you wish you could protect me. What kind of stuff is this? I am an
American citizen. I fought for my country, and I represent it. I
am a citizen here, and you are slandering my name all over the place,
depriving me of constitutional rights.
Mr. Ceakdy. Am I going to have to call an officer to make you
subside ? I may have to.
Mr. Traciitexberg. You may.
Mr. Clardy. I am going to dismiss you, but before I dismiss you,
I am going to promise that you probably are going to get your day
in court. You are probably going to get the opportunity that you
crave, because I shall recommend tliat the Congress of the United '
States call u])on the Attorney General to proceed against you for
contempt against the Congress of the United States — the boisterous,
intemperate conduct that has taken place here since you have been on
the stand. I am afraid that some of these good newspapermen and
otliers may find themselves called as witnesses at the proper time to
demonstrate that the cold record is really only half of tlie siory, so
your desire to have a day in court may be granted sooner than you
desire.
Mr. TRACiiTr.NBERG. I would go gladly to jail to see the American
people with your record
Mr. Clardy. That is all. Witness dismissed.
Ml'. Trachtenberg. I would go to jail because my grandmother
was burned in a Hitler prison
Mr. Clardy. Will the officers remove the witness from the room.
Now, Mr. Tavenner, I think we have gone a little later than usual.
T want to advise all of the witnesses who were subpenaed for us today,
those who were subpenaed for tomorrow, to report at 9 : 30 tomorrow
morning in this hearing room. Hearing adjourned until that time.
(Whereupon, at 5:22 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 9:80
a. m. Friday, May 14, 1954.)
INDEX TO PART 9
INDIVIDUALS
Page
Baldwin, Bereniece "iHOS
Barsky, Joseph 5658
Baxter, Bolza 5030, 5081
Beiswenger, Hugo 5023
Belfrage, Cedric 5645
Berry, Abner 5023
Borod, Geneva (see also Olmsted, Geneva) 5017-5628 (testimony)
Brovrder. Earl 5647
Brownell, Herbert J 5600
Churchill, Beatrice 5650
Dean, Charles C 5035. 5036. 5052
Dean, Max 5628,5029,5652-5008 (testimony)
Duclos 5647. 5649, 5651
Fngel. Marvin 5587,5588-5600 (testimony)
Pox, George Whitman 5606-5617 (testimony)
Foster. Howard 5628-5635 (testimony)
Fox, Richard -"^OlO. 5611
Gore, Jack 5601, 5011, 5001. 5062
Gosser, Richard 5033
Graber, Sidney 5600
Hall, Jack ^^13
Hiss, Alger •''>644
Joseph, Jo?eph R •'''<''-^5
Kellv, Patrick W •'»644
Kelly, Pearl Irene (Mrs. Patrick W. Kelly) 5644
Kellv, Pearl Potter •"'644
Kellv, Thomas , 5644
Leitson. Morton .5035,5630-5052 (testimony)
Linn. Sidnev 5597-5.^99
Livingston. John '^633
I^Iagee. David S 5635, 5630, 5652
Mazey, Mr - 5633
McManus. .John L 5028. 5029, 5045, 5646
Newblatt. Harry 5606, o652
Olmsted, Geneva (see also Borod, Geneva) 5623
Probe, Bernard ^^668
Ratner, Harriet '^602
Raymond, Phillip T-poo-rpo. r'fi^V
Renther Walter P "633. .50.34, r>b77
RosenliVg. Ethel 5f^. 56^0. 5645
Rosenberg, Julius 5029, 5(..>0, 564.5
Ruthven, Alexander C rpo-">7o"p tcri
Selbv Guv W 563.3, 5636, 50;)2
Trachtenberg, Martin 5608-5678 (testimony)
Weir, Roy W 5641, a642
Weston, Aaron rf^Ai""rATi Vri9
White Jack 5001. 5011, 5012
Wistrand B^uc'e":::: 5617, 5618, 5628, 5635, 5636, 5652
Okganizations
American Bar Association 'j'"^'^
American Federation of Labor 5001, .^)073
American Youth for Democracy 5610, 5043, .i661, a002
American Youth for Democratic Action <>6yb
1
ii INDEX
Page.
Art Students Leaj?ue 5024
Central Michigan College of Education, Mount Pleasant, Mich 5652
City College of New York 55,S9, 5590, 5594, 5595
Civil Rights Congress 5662
Committee for Civil Rights 5662, 5663
Comnmnist Party, Michigan :
Chevrolet Club (Lansing) 5610, 5631
Flint section 5675
Ralph Neafus Club 5658
Town Club (Ann Arbor) 5640
Congress of Industrial Organizations 5601, 5673
Flint Junior College 5628, 5637
General Motors Corp 5613, 5632, 5669, 5678
AC Spark Plug Division 5619, 5626, 5627
Buick Division 5670, 5673, 5674
Chevrolet Division 5590,
5594-5596, 5598-5600, 5604, 5606-5609, 5613, 5615, 5628, 5645
Independent Progressive Party 5640, 5649, 5650
International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union 5613
Labor Youth League 5601-5603
Lamme School of Photography, Denver, Colo 5624
Michigan State Co'lege 5607, '5610, 5611
Michigan Youth for Democratic Action 5659, 5661-5663
National Committee To Secure Justice in the Rosenberg Case 5629, 5645
National Lawyers' Guild 5643, 5656, 5662, 5663
Second World Youth Congress. Budapest 5664
Students Lawyers' Guild, University of Michigan 5643
United Auto Workers, CIO 5633-5635. 5677
Universal Fence Co 5595-5597
University of Chicago 5626
University of Denver 5625
University of Michigan 5624,
5625, 5637-5640, 5643, 5653, 5658, 5659, 5661, 5662, 5667
University of Michigan Academic Freedom Committee 5643
University of Michigan Law School 5637, 5653
University of New Mexico 5672
Young Progressives 5601
Publications
Michigan Worker 5612, 5613, 5616, 5617
Nation 5642
National Guardian 5628, 5629, 5645, 5646
o
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— Part 10
(FLINT)
HEARING. .
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
MAY 14, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
INCLUDING INDEX
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
'48861 WASHINGTON : 1954
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
SEP 2 8 1954
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
HAROLD H. VELDB, Illinois, Chairman
BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania
DONALD L. JACKSON, California MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri
KIT CLARDY, Michigan CLYDE DOYLE, California
GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio JAMES B. FRAZIER, JR., Tennessee
Robert L. Kdnzig, Counsel
Frank S. Tavexner, Jr., Counsel
Thomas W. Beale, Sr.. Chief Clerk
Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research
Courtney E. Owens, Acting Chief Investigator
U
CONTENTS
lav 14, 1954. testimony of— f*^*
"Herbert H. Donnelly obbO
Sherwood (Jerry) Baumkel ^701
Herbert H. Donnelly (resumed) ^7U^
Sherwood (Jerrv) Baumkel (resumed) 5712
William C. Van Der Does 5723
Jack Moscou 57d2
James A. Coleman 5744
Murray Borod 574b
ndex ^
III
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
r53, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted hy the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PAET 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and object of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-Ameriran propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and at-
tacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution,
and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any
necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) tlie results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 83D CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1953
^ ***** *
RxjXE X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress,
the following standing committees :
*******
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
RiTLE XI ;
POWERS AND DUTIES OF CX)MMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American Activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent,
character, niul objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American
propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries, or of a domestic origin
and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Con-
stitution, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to
the Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such
investigation together with such i-ecommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendancp
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.
VI
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— Part 10
(Flint)
FRIDAY, MAY 14, 1954
United States House of Kepresentatr'es,
Subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities,
Flint, Mich.
public hearing
I
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
piet, pursuant to recess, at 9 : 32 a. m., in the Supervisors Room, Court-
house, Hon. KitClardy (acting chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representative Harold H. Velde
(committee chairman). Kit Clardy (acting chairman), and Clyde
Doyle.
Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Donald T.
A.ppell and W. Jackson Jones, investigators; and Mrs. Juliette P.
Joray, acting clerk.
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session. Before we call the
first witness, I have a communication to read into the record and to
make public. The communication is addressed to us and says.
Name similarity is causing me some embarrassment. My name was Shirley
Foster, the same as the Communist named by Mrs. Churchill. I was married
6 weeks ago, and my name now is Shirley Perkins, but the wedding was so
recent that most people remember me as Shirley Foster. Would you please an-
nounce at the hearing that Shirley Foster Perkins, 548 West Eldridge Road, is
not the Shirley Foster who was identified as a Communist.
I trust that with that announcement there will be no further con-
fusion, and I repeat what the committee has said in the other sessions, if
there is any name similarity that creates any confusion of this kind or
if any of those who have been identified by any of the witnesses in the
proceedings have any desire to be heard, they have only to communi-
ate that to the committee.
Call your first witness, Mr. Tavenner,
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Herbert Donnelly, will you come forward,
please, sir ?
Mr. Clardy. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
Iruth, so help you God ?
Mr. Donnelly. I do.
Mr. Clardy. Be seated. I see you are not accompanied by counsel.
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Of course you have that privilege. Is it your desire
to proceed without counsel ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, sir.
5679
5680 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. Very well.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ?
TESTIMONY OF HERBERT H. DONNELLY
Mr. DoNNEixLY. Herbert H. Donnelly.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name ?
Mr. Donnelly. D-o-n-n-e-l-l-y.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Donnelly ?
Mr. Donnelly. Bridgeport, Mich., April 28, 1909.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Donnelly. 1620 Church, Flint, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Donnelly. I am a f actoiy worker.
Mr. Tavenner. In what factory do you work ?
Mr. Donnelly. Buick Motor Car Co.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been an employee of the Buici :
factory ?
Mr. Donnelly. I am on my 19th year.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu
cational training has been ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, I got as far as the seventh grade.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Donnelly, are you now a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the CommunisI
Party?
Mr. Donnelly. I have.
Mr. Ta^^nner. Over what period of time were you a member oJ
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, I am not too sure about the date, but it waj
sometime in 1946 that I first joined the Communist Party.
Mr. Ta-stenner. Wlien did you get out of the Communist Party ? I
Mr. Donnelly. I severed all connections in 1951.
Mr. Tavenner. In 1951. Prior to the time that you made your final!
break and severed all connections with the Communist Party, had you '
made an effort to make a break from the Communist Party at an
earlier date ? |
Mr. Donnelly. Yes; sometime the previous summer I bought a|
lunch wagon and moved to Fenton, and I was making the break then.j
Mr. Tavenner. Did you, prior to making your final break with the
Communist Party, consult persons on the outside as to the method
or manner by which you might be able to free yourself from entangle-
ment in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. After you had made your final break from the Com-
munist Party did you confer fully with the Federal Bureau of In-
vestigation and give them the cooperation which they requested?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you had conferences with members of the in-
vestigative staff of this committee ?
Mr. Donnelly. I have.
Mr. Tavenner. And have you complied with their requests in co-
operating with this committee ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5681
Mr. DoNXELLT. I have.
Mr Tavenner. Have you done everything withm your power to
make your severance with the Communist Party full and completed
Mr. Donnelly. I have. • - i •
Mr. Tavenner. You say you became a member approxmiately m
1946 ;"that is, a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, sir. .
Mr. Ta\t5nner. Will you tell the committee, please, the circum-
stances under which you became a member?
Do you recall who approached you first about becoming a member
of the Communist Party?
Mr. Donnelly, Yes.
Mr, Tavenner. Who was that?
Mr. Donnelly. Kobert O'Dowd.
Mr. Clardy, Spell it, please.
Mr, Donnelly. The last name?
Mr. Clardy, Yes, please,
Mr. Donnelly, Capital O'-D-o-w-d,
Mr. Clardy. Thank you. . • , i .i ^
Mr, Tavenner, Will you tell the committee, please, just how that
occurred ^ ■>
Mr Donnelly. Well, I think it was after 1945-46. It started
in 1945 and ran over to 1946, and we came back into the snop, and i
was talking to Bob, and he asked me why I didn't ]oin the party, and
I asked him what I had to do to ioin, and he handed me an application.
1 filled it out, and in a matter of 2 or 3 days he came around and said
they was having a meeting, and that was it.
Mr, Tavenner, Will you raise your voice a little more so that we
can understand more clearly?
Mr, Donnelly. Yes, sir, .i ^ i
Mr Tav-enner. When you signed in the manner that you have
described and became a member of the Communist Party, were you
invitecl to a meeting?
Mr. Donnelly, I was. i uo
Mr Tavenner. Do you recall where that meeting was held?
Mr. Donnelly. The first meeting I attended was on 12th street.
Mr. Tavenner. In Flint?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes; at Joe Brant's. . i n • ^i r^
Mr, Tavenner. What position did Joe Brant hold m the Com-
munist Party at that time?
Mr, Donnelly, Pie was party organizer. . .,, ^^•
Mr. Tavenner. You were employed in the Buick plant at iliat time,
were you not?
Mr. Donnelly. I was. ,, i i j
Mr Tavenner. Was this first meeting that you attended composed
solely of persons employed at Buick, or was it a meeting of persons
in the area generally? n t
Mr. Donnelly. It was a meeting of the people generally. 1 remem-
ber distinctly that Howard Foster was there.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. ^Vlio ? , . -, ^ , j^
Mr Donnelly. Howard Foster, and he ]ust received his bonus from
the Army or something, and he came in and give Joe Brant sonie
money, and so I know that there was people there other than people
from Buick.
48861— 54— pt, 10 2
5682 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell the committee, please, who the other
persons were or as many as you can recall, who attended this first
meeting that you attended ?
Mr. Donnelly. There was Jim Widmark, Bob O'Dowd, myself,
Howard Foster. It seems to me there were 2 or 3 othei-s that I can't
recall.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Do you know who succeeded Joe Brant as organ-
izer of the Communist Party in the Flint area ?
Mr. Donnelly. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was that ?
Mr. Donnelly. Jack A^Hiite.
Mr. Clardy. Repeat that.
Mr. Donnelly. Jack Wliite.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall about when it was that Jack ^\Tiite
took over the reins of the Communist Party in Flint ?
Mr. Donnelly. I think Jack came in sometime in 1947, if I am not
mistaken.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you very active in the Communist Party before
Jack "Wliite took over ?
Mr. Donnelly. No.
Mr. Tavenner. "V^^ien did you become active ?
Mr. Donnelly. After Jack came to town.
Mr. Tavenner. After Jack came. What was the general nature of
your activity ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, we sold papers, and I worked in the Progres-
sive Party, and generally in the union the idea was to be activated as
possible in the union, and— well, push the party ideology as far as-
possible.
Mr. Tavenner. Were those the things that you were supposed to do
as a Communist ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you taught and instructed to do those things?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, after Jack '\^^iite came to town, was the or-
ganization of the Communist Party changed as far as it involved you
at Buick ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, yes, to a great extent. Jack was a trade
unionist, and he was— you got to understand one thing, Joe Brant
was more or less of an intellectual, and I attended some meetings at
his place, and I might just as well stayed home, for all the stuff that
they was talking about was so far over my head, but Jack, he had a
way of breaking this stuff down, you know, so the average guy like I
could understand it, and he got along with the workers a lot better
than Joe did on that account. I mean, you didn't have to be an intel-
lectual to talk with Jack.
INIr. Clardy. You mean he took the Marxian
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. Theories and put them in the ordinary conversational
language that you and I would use, for instance, when we meet and
talk on the street ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right, that's it.
Mr. Ta'S'enner. Now, we begin to talk about activities of tlie party
in connection with Communists who were employed by Buick, and I
w^ould like for you to give us the names of the principal people that
COMMUlSriST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5683
you can recall who were members of the Communist Party here in
Flint. , , ,
You have mentioned some of them. I do not know whether you
have mentioned all you can recall or not. I think you have mentioned
Widniark, did you not ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know a person by the name of Tom Kelly?
Mr. Donnelly. I did.
Mr. TA^^NNER. I am not sure whether you mentioned him or not.
Mr. Donnelly. I haven't.
Mr. Tavennek. Y^ou have not. Do you recall how Tom Kelly was
employed at that time ?
Mr. Donnelly. He was employed at the Chevrolet.
Mr. Tavenner. At Chevrolet?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner, So he was working in industry at that time ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee whether or not he was
active in the work of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall the names of any other persons?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner, Wlio were active prior to the centralization of in-
terest in emplo,yees at Buick ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, there was Blassingame.
Mr. Tavenner. Blassingame?
Mr. Donnelly. Barry Blassingame, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat was his first name ?
Mr. Donnelly. Barry.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how he was employed at that time ?
Mr. Donnelly. He was employed at Buick.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the names of any others ?
Mr. Donnelly. Charles Mitchell.
Mr. Tavenner. How was Mitchell employed ?
Mr. Donnelly. He is employed at Buick.
Mr. Tavenner. Of course I can understand you would be more
likely to have known those who were employed at Buick, because you
were employed there.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall any others? Now, this was before
the work became centered in Buick. Do you recall having met a per-
son by the name of Kenny !?
Mr. Donnelly. Casper Kenny, yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. How was he employed ?
Mr. Donnelly. He was employed at Buick.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he active in the work of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you mention a person by the name of Foster
a few moments ago ?
Mr. Donnelly. Howard Foster ?
Mr. Ta^^nner. HoAvard Foster.
5684 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN '
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavennner. How was Howard Foster employed ?
Mr. Donnelly. At Chevrolet.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he active in the work of the Communist Party?
Mr. Donnelly. He was.
Mr. Tamsnner. Do you know his wife's name ?
]Mr. Donnelly. Shirlev.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Was she a member of the Communist Party to
your knowledge ?
]\Ir. Donnelly. She was.
Mr. Ta\'enner, Can you tell the committee whether or not she was
active in the work of the party ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well. If you will give us the names now of
any others that you can recall.
Mr. Donnelly. AYell, there was Charles Shinn.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was he employed ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, at that time — he wasn't employed there when
I first met Charley, and I understand that later for a time he had a
job at South Fisher. That was in later years.
Mr. Tavenner. Had a job where?
Mr. Donnelly. South Fisher, but at the time I met him he wasn't
working.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. He was.
Mr. Tavenner, All right, sir. Can you recall the names of any
othere ?
Mr. Donnelly. George Fox.
Mr. TA^^NNER. George Fox, I believe, testified or was called to the
witness stand yesterday or the day before. Was he a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly, He was.
Mr. TA^^NNER. All right, sir. Was he active in the work of the
party ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Are there any others whose names you can recall I
Mr. Donnelly. Murray Borod.
Mr. Tavenner. Murray Borod. How was he employed ?
Mr. Donnelly, At Chevrolet.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he active in the work of the party ?
]Mr. Donnelly. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know his wife's name ?
Mr. Donnelly. Geneva.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr, Donnelly. She was.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she active in the work of the party ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Are there others that you can recall ?
]\fr. Donnelly. IMarvin Engel.
iNIr. Tavenner. How was he employed ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, I wasn't too sure until I read the paper, but
I understand he has been at Chevrolet.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. You were not certain of the nature of his employ-
ment?
COMlvroNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5685
i Mr. Donnelly. No, sir ; I was not. I knew lie was in a shop, but
[ didn't know which one.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you know that he was a member of the
ommunist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. I have attended meetings with him.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he one of the so-called intellectuals ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well. Can you give us the names of others?
Mr. Donnelly. Jack Moscou.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me stop at this moment. I asked you if Engel
ivas one of the intellectuals, and you replied "Yes." Let us stop at
;his point and talk a little about the character of the organization of
;he party.
After Jack White came, was any special emphasis put upon the
ivork of the party within industry ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, things for a time here were pretty much at a
standstill, and then there was a bunch of people
Mr. Tavenner. When you say things were at a standstill, what do
fou mean ? In the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. You say about the time that Jack White came here
;hings were at a standstill in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether conditions changed?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, about that time — well, it was some time in
1948 that the colonizers started drifting in here — that is the people,
hese intellectuals, as you put it, from New York State.
Mr. Tavenner. Colonizers came in from New York State?
Mr, Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, were these people known as colonizers at the
ime — I mean, were they called colonizers by the party ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right ; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. That is not a term that has just been adopted re-
lently but is one that was used by the Communist Party back in 1948
M 1949.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Now, what did the Communist Party do with re-
gard to colonizers ? What was that situation ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, things were pretty quiet when they first
;ame in. They had gotten jobs at these various jobs and gotten their
probationary period in, which is 90 days. I mean, they didn't acti-
mtQ themselves until that time. In fact, one fellow that came in
lere was very — in fact, if he met someone, even someone he knew on
:he street, he wouldn't talk to them, and that was Martin Trachten-
3erg. There was a certain fellow, a guy by the name of Al Nefaro,
net Trachtenberg in front of the city hall, I believe — of course this
hearsay, and he said that he walked up and slapped Trachtenberg
)n the back and Trachtenberg liked to jump out of his skin, turned
around and saw Al and took off on the run. So he just wasn't hav-
ng anything to do with anybody, and he was supposed to be in here
tor some secret reason or other, and I never did find out what that
vas.
Mr. Tavenner. You say the colonizers remained very quiet for
;lie probationary period of 90 days ?
[
5686 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Donnelly. That is right. . . .
Mr. Tavenner. What was the importance of remaining quiet for
90 days? .„ ,
Mr. DoNNELLT. Well, in the first place, if the corporations would
have "found out within the 90 days before they established service in
these shops, well, they would just have been let go. There wouldn't
have been any if's, and's, or but's about it. I mean, the union
wouldn't have had to fought for them because they didn't have serv-
ice. They were still probationary employees, and the union didn't
have any control over the situation. But after they established their
service, regardless of what reason the factory tried to let them go,
the union, due to the union constitution, would still have had, whether
thev wanted to or not, put up a figlit.
Iklr. Tavenner. So these colonizers that were brought in there
were very quiet for a period of 90 days ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Do you know what the plan was of the Commu-
nist Party in bringing in colonizers ?
Mr. Donnelly. To put a new life in the party and to give leader-
ship to the masses.
Mr. Tavenner. What type of people were these colonizers that
were brought in ?
Mr. Donnelly. They were all high I. Q. fellows, college boys and
girls, what have you.
Mr. Tavenner. Highly trained college people ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. With high I. Q.'s, I believe you said.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you get to meet, become personally
acquainted, with some of these colonizers?
Mr. Donnelly. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were these colonizers located in the party
in Flint ? Wliere were they assigned, or rather, where did they take
up their duties ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, Trachtenberg went to Buick.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that Mr. Martin Trachtenberg ?
Mr. Donnelly. Martin Trachtenberg, yes.
Mr. Clardy. Were you at the hearing yesterday, witness?
Mr. Donnelly. No.
Mr. Clardy. Did you hear any of it ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. The Martin Trachtenberg you are talking about is
the docile gentleman who was on the stand at the close last night ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear it over the radio?
Mr. Donnelly. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Did vou recognize his voice ?
Mr. Donnelly. I did.
Mr. Clardy. Did you recognize his manner ?
Mr. Donnelly. I did. I
Mr. Clardy. Is that typical? a^
Mr. Donnelly. That is typical. '
"Mr. Tam^nner. You say he was one of the colonizers.
Mr. Donnelly. He was.
COMMIHSriST activities est the state of MICHIGAN 5687
Mr. Tavenner. Did you learn from him anything about his educa-
tional qualifications ?
Mr. Donnelly. No. I knew he was a college man, but I didn't
know
Mr. Tavenner. That is all we found out, too.
Mr. Donnelly. So you know just as much about it as I do.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, was he assigned to the place where you were
working? ImeantoBuick?
Mr. IJonnelly. Yes, Buick.
Mr. Tavenner. "When did he become affiliated — or did he become
affiliated with your group of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, the first — he used to come around to Jack's, I
had seen him there several times.
Mr. Tavenner. JackWliite?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right — ^before he ever started asserting him-
self, so to speak, but about the first time that I remember of Martin
doing anything was at a union meeting. He got up and started to
talk, and something came up, and he got to his feet, asked for the
floor and got to his feet, and if he had kind of humbled himself a
little bit and tried to approach the subject on a trade-union level or
on a workingman's level, everything would probably liave been all
right, but there was a certain individual at this meeting that I never
figured was too sharp, but he recognized this thing right oif the reel.
He wanted to know who in the hell this guy thought he was trying
to kid
Mr. Tavenner. Recognized what thing right off ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, a man getting up there talking like a Phila-
delphia lawyer, you know, at a union meeting, and they recognized the
fact right away, that he wasn't a trade unionist, and so I think
Trachtenberg was the guy that put these people on the spot more;
in fact, I think he was the first one to put them on the spot, because
by getting up there and using the language he did, you know, and
putting himself forward in the manner he did, he just gave the whole
show away.
Mr. Tavenner. Plainly indicated that he was working in the inter-
ests of the Communist Party rather than trade unions.
Mr, Donnelly. Well, he was strictly out of character at a union
meeting because he would have been more in character in Congress
or some place like that, you loiow.
Mr. Clarpy. I hope. Witness, you mean a Communist congress.
Mr. Donnelly. Well, that was just a phrase of speech. Every-
body is getting in their plug — I thought I would.
Mr. Clardy. Would you say then, in other words, that he carried
on at that time about the way he carried on yesterday ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right. He talked more like a college pro-
fessor than he did a worker.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I wish to assure the witness that we
don't want him on my side of the aisle in Congress.
Mr. Clardy. You can have him as far as I am concerned. I am quite
sure that the gentleman wouldn't be able to qualify on many scores,
but at any rate, to come back to what you were saying, he behaved
in such a manner that it was plainly apparent to the good union
members present that he had an ax of some kind to grind.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right, yes.
»t
b
5688 COJMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. He wasn't talking as a union member would talk, ana|{
was devoting himself, I take it, to subjects that were off the beam, \\
more or less ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right, yes.
Mr. Doyle. He apparently was using his ax against the constitU'
tional form of government as we know it, as a mouthpiece of the tt
American Communist Party. in
Mr. Clardy. Would you say that is right ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right, yes.
Mr. Clardy. You know, I am moved to remark, Mr. Counsel, that ]/&
I think one of the things that in the long run will do as much if not
more to defeat the efforts of the Communist Party to infiltrate and
destroy labor unions, because that is their ultimate objective, as you
know, and as they demonstrated in Russia, will be the very fact that
they are so overbalanced in their desire and zeal to promote the party's
ends that they betray themselves and destroy whatever effectiveness
they have before they are done, would you agree with that ?
]\Ir. Donnelly. I would agree with that, yes, sir. pi
Mr. Clardy. Thank you.
Mr. Doyle. May I make this comment there, Mr. Chairman, and
T think it is very apropos — another reason those Communists con-
spirators will be defeated is on account of the presence and control
of it in the American labor movement generally of patriotic devoted
American citizens in the union who recognize the Communist con-
spiracy for what it is and kick it out whenever they discover it.
Mr.' Clardy. That is what I had in mind. They overplay their
bands, and the good loyal Americans in the movement see them for
what they are.
Mr. Donnelly. That is what happened in this case.
Mr. Clardy. That, I think, is exactly what happened yesterday, too.
Proceed.
Mr. Velde. Since we are complimenting various individuals for
ability to recognize the Communist movement in the labor unions, let
us also pay a few respects to the great body of security officers in our
large industrial plants who are able to work with not only their em-
ployers, but with the employees, too, and recognize the Communist
leaders that come in and get good and complete records of those Com-
munists and cooperate with their Government agencies in rooting
them out.
Mr. Clardy. I agree with you, and it would probably interest vou
to know that since we have been in town my phone has been ringing?
continually, and in every instance it has come from a man in the plant
who hates and detests communism, passing on helpful information
that we shall make good use of, and some of it has had to do with
the character you are now discussing.
]Mr. Donnelly. I tliink there is one point that should be brought
out at this time, if 3^ou don't mind, and that is the fact that this thin?
had a l)ig chance of succeeding if conditions hadn't have been as they
were, like in the last few years work has been plentiful, I mean, money
has been flowing into the worker's pocket, and it is pretty hard to sell
a man that can buy a $10,000 home, drive a new automobile, have a
television set, on the fact that the system he is living imder isn't good.
All riglit, on the other hand, suppose we had had a little tough hick
along the line, that we had a depression or, you know, on the verge
l(
I COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5689
■I
of a depression — this thin*;^ had a big chance of working, and that is
a fact that people — I have noticed this thing that during the war, you
know, World War II, people walking around the streets, you wouldn't
think that people were getting killed just a little ways from here, you
know, across the pond. They were unconcerned about the thing, and
they are taking this thing the same way, and I think it is very, very
important that that thing is brought out.
Mr. Clardy. I quite agree with you, witness, although I have the
utmost confidence in the good sense of the average American, no mat-
ter what economic stratum of society he may come from.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. I think they in the long run will reject the false ide-
ology that these fanatical traitors are trying to sell us.
Mr. Donnelly. What I was trying to get at is that we are locking
the barn after the horse is stolen.
Mr. Clardy. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, communism had a great deal better
chance of success where the people have been complacent about it ?
Mr. Donnelly. When a man is hungry he is going to listen any-
where, but when he has a few nickels in his pocket and drives a good
automobile, it is going to be pretty hard to talk on it.
Mr. Tavenner. Therefore it is important to be alert.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, were any other of the colonizers assigned
to your unit, to Buick ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes. There is a name I would like to pass up here
for a few moments because I know the individual, but I am a little bit
undecided about the last name, so I don't want to make any mistakes.
Mr. Tavenner. That is right.
Mr. Donnelly. Howard Falk works at Buick. ^
Mr. Tavenner. Howard Falk ?
Mr. Donnelly. F-a-l-k.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he one of the intellectuals ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. He was the first of that category of witnesses who
appeared before the committee yesterday or the day before, the day
before yesterday. He seemed, according to the testimony here, to have
failed to inform his employer of the fact that he had a degree in elec-
trical engineering, but he came in from New York within a week after
he received his degree and took a position for which his training had
been no preparation. Will you tell us about him ?
Mr. Donnelly. Howard Falk, he is employed at Buick. He has
been very active in party circles and the program the party has been
carrying on since he reached town. Of course I am just speaking up as
far as 1951. I don't know what has transpired since tlien. F knew he
was a college graduate, but the hearing the other day, I didn't know just
what he majored in or anything like that. I mean, I never was inter-
ested enough to ask him or ask anybody else. Hearing that testimony
the other day brought to my mind a little discussion I had with Falk
once about exploitation and what have you.
Mr. Tavenner. About what?
Mr. Donnelly. About exploitation. He tried to tell me tliat due to
the fact the farmers owned their own means of production, they were
48861— 54— pt. 10 3
5690 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN |
capitalists. Tie had quite a time, you know, tryincr to mtike me see
that He didn't succeed because I was born and brought up oji a farm,
and I know we were never capitalists. Things come hard. But I mean
this ideology of the party, anybody that controls the means of produc-
tion, you k^iow, they are exploiting somebody, they are carutalists or
Fomkling; you own a horse and plow and you got a little piece of
<rround, you are a capitalist. That was the idea he was trying to give
me I don't know whether this thing is deeply rooted or you know,
whether it goes all the way through the party or not, but that was his
''^MirCLARnY''l"can assure you that it is, and if you have any doubt
about it, you have onlv to look to Russia and to Poland where anyone
who had any propertv of any kind, farm, farm animals and so on,
was regarded as a Kulak, and it was a question of "oft with their head,
because only the proletariat is supposed to have any rights of any k md.
Of course they are not allowed to own any property. Ihev aie sup-
posed to be servants of the state, but anyone who owns anyihmg is an
inemy of the workers to believe the Communists, and so ho was voic-
ino- the true Marxian doctrine of setting class against class, poisoning
the minds of everyone so that you would set every man s hand against
"'llr. DonnIIly. Well, when I bought that l^nch wagon, you know
thev called me petty bourgeois. AVell. I lost $1,800 m the oeal, so I
don't think that made me a capitalist, either.
Mr Tavenner. Now, will you tell us the names of other of the iiitel-
leciultl grmip that came in to take over the affairs of the Communist
^' Mr. Donnelly. You mean the people, the colonizers that were
^Tr'r tIvenner. Yes, the colonizers. I am asking you particularly
now about the persons who were known to you as colonizers.
I^fr. Donnelly. Well, Max Trachtenberg was here for a time 1
understand that later he went to Detroit He was a brother of Mait n^
Mr. TA^^CNNER. Was he a member of the Communist Party while
here ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes. And Bill Van der Does.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Van der Does?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes. . , „ -„n ni ^ i.-.„«yik
Mr. Tavenner. Where was he assigned ? Wiere did he take up his
work ?
:Mr. Donnelly. At Fisher Body.
Mr. Clardy. We had better spell that.
Mr. Donnelly. AVell, it is V-a-n d-e-r D-o-e-s. ^ , ., , „,
Mr. Tavenner. Can you advise the committee more m detail abour
this person ? . , £ t^.^
Mr. Donnelly. Well, Bill came into town, he was one ot the--
came in about the same time or a little after IMarym Engel, and I ( on t
really k'liow too much about Bill. I met him a lot of times I talked
to hi'm, but he has been around party circles, and he_was indoctrinatea
with the ideologv, and that is about all I know about Bill.
]\rr Tavenner. Can vou recall the names of any others that you
knew came in as part of the group of colonizers whether they wore
assigned to Buick, whether they worked in Buick, or wherever ti.e}
mav have worked 2
COMJVroNlST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5691
Mr. Donnelly. Well, I believe I mentioned Jack Moscoii.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, you did. Now, where did he work ? Was he
one of this group ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, he was one of this group. He is a cousin of
Bill Van der Does.
Mr. Tavenner. A cousin of Van der Does ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall where he worked ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, Chevrolet.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us any additional information regard-
ing him or his activities ?
Mr. Donnelly. AVell, he was pretty active in the party. I knew
Jack fairly well. The first time I met Jack was over to Louis
Koberge's. I was over there doing some work for Louis, and Jack and
anothei- young fellow came up there. I was introduced to him at that
time. That must have been right after he reached town. I was told
that he was one of the colonizers that some of the boys sent in, one of
the boys sent in.
Mr. Ta\-enner. Are there others you can recall ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, Zina Brandi ^ came in here. I guess you
could call her a colonizer. She is from out of town.
Mr. Tavenner. What is her name?
Mr. Donnelly. Brandi, B-r-a-n-d-i.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you mentioned in the earlier part of the testi-
mony that you desired to withhold your testimony for the present as
to one individual because of your uncertainty as to his last name.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. You know him by his first name, do you not?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right, Jerry.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not asking you to give it yet. Do you think
you can identify the person i f you see him ?
Mr. Donnelly. I could.
Mr. Tavenner. Let us wait until later on in the day and ascertain
whether or not you can identify the person by sight, and if so, I will
ask you additional questions regarding him,
Mr. DoYi.E. I am glad to note, Mv. Chairman, the care with which
our counsel makes sure that only persons are named as members of
the Communist Party who are definitely known by any witness to be
members of the Communist Party. I know that is the policy of our
counsel for the committee, and I am glad to see it is being carried on
here. In other words, we only name in public — or we only allow to
be named in public so far as we can control it those persons who can
be positively identified by a witness as members of the Communist
Party. That is not only according to fair practices of procedures of
American law, but it is fair and equitable.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall the names at this time of any other
persons who were in this category of colonizers ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, there was Lola Van der Does, Bill's wife. I
never remember seeing Lola at any functions.
Mr. Tavenner. "^A^iat is her name?
Mr. Donnelly. Lola, L-o-l-a, Van der Does. And there is a Ted
Karpell. lie was told to leave town. He got beat up at Chevrolet.
^ Now Mrs. Ray Haskell.
5692 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
They figured he was a bad risk, and he was told by the party to leav©<
town.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, he was a member of the Communist Party! i
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he in this category of
Mr. Donnelly. Colonizer.
Mr. Tavenner. Colonizer ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You mentioned earlier in your testimony a person,
by the name of Borod, I believe.
Mr. Donnelly. Murray Borod.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he in this category of colonizer ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, he was brought in from Pontiac.
Mr. Tavenner. From Pontiac ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, from New York originally, but
Mr. Tavenner. From New York to Pontiac and Pontiac to Flint?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you personally acquainted with him ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party in Flint?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliere did he work ?
Mr. Donnelly. Chevrolet.
Mr. Tavenner. You have already told us that you were acquainted
with his wife.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right
Mr. Tavenner. And his wife's name was
Mr. Donnelly. Geneva.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of your own knowledge why he left
Pontiac and came to Flint ? Don't state what anyone told you unless
he, himself, told you.
Mr. Donnelly. Then I couldn't make any statements because what
I know about it was hearsay.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. You were present at a meeting of the youth
group of the Communist Party during the middle of September 1949
at a farm near Columbiaville ? Do yovi recall ?
Mr. Donnelly. I was out there. They had a meeting out there, but
it seems to me that it was earlier in the year, unless it was an awfully
late — of course it could have been September. I guess in some years
you could swim in September, but they had a makeshift pool out there.
The meeting that I remember
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend more than one meeting out there?
Mr. Donnelly. I have been out there several times, but the one
meeting is all I can remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Then I may be in error as to the date of the meet-
ing. At any rate you were at a meeting in 1949 ?
Mr. Donnelly. They held it outdoors on the lawn, and later some
of us went swimming in this pool, so it seems to me that it should
have been a little earlier in the year. I could be wrong; I am not sure.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Murray Borod there ?
Mr. Donnelly. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Geneva Borod there?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5693
Mr. Ta\tenner. Was that prior to their marriage and was her name
Geneva Olmsted at that time ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, now, I couldn't really say about that.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether they met for the first time at
that meeting or not ?
, Mr. Donnelly. No, they met New Year's Eve 1948 at this place.
They were having a New Year's Eve party.
Mr. Tavenner. At this same place ?
Mr. Donnelly. At this same place.
Mr. Ta\^nner. How do you know that was their first meeting ?
Mr, Donnelly. Well, I know that people have been telling Geneva
!about Murray, and up until that time she had never met him.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Murray working at Pontiac at that time?
Mr. Donnelly. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. Are there any other members of the category of
Icolonizers that you can now recall ?
Mr. Donnelly. Betty Thomas ^ is in here.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how she was employed ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, she had two or three little jobs when she was
here. It seems to me she had a job with a coal company or something,
stenographer or something. Then I can't remember where she got em-
ployment after that. I know most of the time she was here she wasn't
working at all.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Are there others that you can recall who were
among the colonizers?
Mr. Donnelly. I will have to whistle this — Sapolinski.
Mr. Ta\T2Nner. "^Vliere was he employed ?
Mr. Donnelly. Chevrolet, I believe — yes, Chevrolet. His first
name was Leon. He was killed when he went home to see his mother
on Mother's Day. I think it was 1948 or 1949, somewhere around
there, 1949, 1 believe it was.
Mr. Tavenner. You have told the committee that these colonizers
were sent in here, and you have given us a description of various places
in industry principally to which they were assigned. You have told
the committee that the purpose was to build up the party and to create
leader^iip for the masses, and that that was the purpose of sending
these people in here. Now will you tell the committee, please, how
they functioned when they did get here and what the result was ?
("Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Donnelly. Well, they had little or no understanding of the
working people in the trade-union movement, and they tried to insert a
lot of things in there, you know, that our organizer felt at that time
they were going a little bit fast, and I guess he had quite a time with
them to try to keep them toned down until they could get some kind
of an idea what this thing was all about, how the trade-union move-
ment was taken care of, you know, I mean how you operated as a
trade unionist and on what level you approached this thing. They
were trying to approach it from their level, and as I think one of your
witnesses said, I heard this, too., that one of the colonizers said he had
* Now Mrs. Al Mayen, Detroit, Mich.
5694 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
an awful time when talking to a worker, of brin^inf? himself down to
the worker's level so he could talk to him, and I mean that was the
general idea.
Mr. Tavenner. We have found a statement which is referred to as i
Johnson exhibit No. 1, an official statement of the Communist Party
of the State of Michigan, which shows great concern prior to 1949
over which it terms economism within the Communist Party, and
showing that from that time on an eflFort should be made to strug-
gle against economism, and by "economism" they meant this, accord-
ing to the Communist Party statement :
Too much of our party work and activity is confined to narrow trade-union-
issues,
and that what they wanted the party to do in this area in concentrat-
ing in industry according to the Communist Party statement, is that
they wanted to develop the ideology of the party among the workers;
they wanted the party to use the same alertness which Communist auto
workers had learned in helping to build and defend their local unions in
such a way that it would be reflected in organizing the fight for peace,
organizing the fight for Negro rights, organizing the defense of demo-
cratic rights, organizing to bring the case of the 12 before their fellow
workers in local unions. In other words, the work of the party began
to take on a new prospective and an additional purpose, one which,
according to the testimony of Bella Dodd, had all along been the pur-
pose of the Communist Party.
Mr. Donnelly. Well, that is what I was thinking. The idea itself
hadn't changed any. They had that idea to begin with.
Mr. Tavenner. But these intellectuals, these colonizers, were
brought in here to make certain that that phase of Communist Party
activity was given prominence. Now, did it work ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, as you can see, it didn't work, but as I stated
before, under different circumstances it might have worked. If it had
worked, we wouldn't have been conducting this hearing today, and
they wouldn't have been on the skids.
Mr. Tavenner, When you left the party in 1951 were those coloniz-
ers still at work, those intellectuals within the Communist Party?
Mr. Donnelly. They were.
Mr. Tavenner. Some of them have been produced here as witnesses
and some are yet to be produced as witnesses of those you have named.
Do you have any way of knowing what their activities have been in
the Communist Party since 1951 ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, I haven't.
Mr. Tavenner. This would be a good place for a break.
Mr. Clardy. We will take a 5-minute recess.
(Whereupon, at 10 : 43 a. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 10 :48 a.m.)
(Whereupon, at 10 : 54, the hearing was reconvened, Eepresentative
Harold H. Velde having returned to the hearing room during the
recess. )
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session. Proceed, Mr. Taven-
ner.
Mr, Tavenner. Mr. Donnelly, I will ask you at this time to give the
committee the names of any other persons with whom you came in
contact during your membership in the Communist Party who were
known to you to be members of the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5695
Mr. Donnelly. Tliere was Bolza Baxter, Louis Baxter.
Mr. Tavenner. What relation was he to Bolza ?
Mr. Donnelly. Brother.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know the wife of Louis Baxter?
Mr. Donnelly. Jean, yes.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Was she a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, she was — I guess she was more active in the
youth league than she was in the party.
Mr. Tavenner. But she was a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. And assigned to the Labor Youth League.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
There was Louis Roberge. He is deceased. Lloyd Dantzler.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me suggest this : In situations where you know
the person is now deceased, unless they were a functionary in the
Communist Party, I think it would be just as well not to mention
them.
Mr. Donnelly. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. All right, the last name that you gave ?
Mr. Donnelly. Lloyd Dantzler.
Mr. Tavenner, Can you give us any information relating to him
as to his employment ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, Lloyd worked at Buick, he lived in his broth-
er's house. Friendly Dantzler, and we used to have meetings there.
I think these meetings caused Friendly quite a lot of concern, but
nevertheless we used to meet there, and that is my cell or unit, and
the last
Mr. Tavenner. When you say it gave the brother a great deal of
concern, was the brother a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. He was, but I guess he kind of got the idea that it
was more or less putting him on the spot by using his house.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the brother's name ?
Mr. Donnelly. Friendly.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well.
Mr. Donnelly. There was Nadine Baxter, Bolza's wife.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what her maiden name was?
Mr. Donnelly. No, I don't. They were married when I first met
her. There was a fellow by the name of Ben Fields. He was in for
a short time. He wasn't very active.
lh\ Tavenner. Do you think he withdrew from the Communist
Party? I mean, do you know whether he withdrew from the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. I haven't any idea. I haven't seen Ben in 3 or 4
years. Henry Birdsell.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell the name ?
Mr. Donnelly. B-i-r-d-s-e-1-1.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was he employed ?
Mr. Donnelly. I am not quite certain, but I think it was Chevrolet.
Mr. Tavenner. Coidd it have been at AC ?
Mv. Donnelly. It could have been at AC, j'es. I am not sure what
shop he worked in.
Mr. Tavenner. On what do you base your statement that he was
a member of the Communist Party ?
5696 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Donnelly. Well, I had met liim at different party meeting!
and he used to — well, at one time I went with two other fellows u
here on Fourth Street, and he used to come up there quite frequentil
and meet with Jimmy Zarichny and Al Nefaro and myself.
Mr. Tavenner. You spoke of Zarichny. Did you know him to h
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you say yes ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to ask you if any of these persons thai
you have named since the recess were members of or in the cateo-ori
of colonizers, if you can tell us. '^ '
Mr. Donnelly. Well, I am not sure
Mr. Tavenner. If you are not sure, don't state it.
Mr. Donnelly. I am not sure how these people live, so I can't saj
whether
Mr. Tavenner. Will you lift your voice a little ?
Mr. Donnelly. Dantzler, he was from Flint, and
Mr. Tavenner. All right, if you will proceed, please, with an^
other names of persons known to you to have been members of tli.
Communist Party.
Mr. Donnelly. There was Erwin Holland.
Mr. Tavenner. Erwin who ?
Mr. Donnelly. Plolland, H-o-l-l-a-n-d.
Mr. Tavenner. Spell the first name. There are several si^ellings o"
that name.
Mr. Donnelly. E-r-w-i-n.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell Erwin, do you know?
Mr. Donnelly. E-r-w-i-n, I guess.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you know the person that you mentionec
to be a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Donnelly. I had met with him.
^ Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party at the
time that you left the party ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Counsel, the witness answered that question when you ^
asked him how he knew him to be a Communist, and all his answer
was that he had met with him. He didn't say where he had met with
him or
Mr. Donnelly. I will clarify that. I have met with him at party
meetings.
Mr. Doyle. Communist Party meetings.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. You say he is no longer a member of the Communist
Party. Will you tell the committee why, if you know ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, Irv voluntarily joined the Army.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that during the Korean fighting or v/hen was
that?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes. It was around that time. I don't remember
just exactly when Irv went in, but anyway, at that time he loined the
Army voluntarily, which is very much against the Communist ideology
ancl what have you. I mean, they didn't believe in that ; they didn't
believe in the war in Korea, and you had, at that time, as t under-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5697
stand, to sipi a loyalty pledge and what have you, and evidently he
was accepted, so he must have done that, and I tliink the party at that
time realized this fact, and they dropped him.
Mr. Tavexnp^r. What do you mean by "dropped him"?
Mr. DoxNELLY. Well, they just didn't want to have anything more
to do with him.
Mr. Tavenner. Did they expel him?
Mr. Donnelly, Well, I heard on several occasions — nobody quits
the Communist Party. They get rid of them.
Mr. Velde. Well, Mr. Donnelly, do I understand you to say that
the Communist Party members of your group took active interest in
seeing that young men did not enlist for the war, to participate with
our American forces in the Korean war?
Mr. Donnelly. That was it, yes.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, let me ask you to see if I understand
this, the Communist Party in Flint during the time that you were a
member, an active member, to your personal knowledge, dropped this
man Irv because he volunteered to join the United States Army to
fight for the needs and objectives of the United States and United
Nations in Korea; is that right?
Mr. Donnelly. That is correct.
Mr. Clardy. The way you answered the question about the Commu-
nist Party getting rid of him prompts me to ask this : Did they take
any formal action, or did they merely strike him from the roll, so to
speak, and advise the others that he was no longer to be trusted?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, if they had a vote or, rather, a board on
him, I am not aware of it — I mean, if they called a board meeting
on it — and expelled him that way.
Mr. Clardy. If there was any formal action, it wasn't brought to
your attention ?
Mr. Donnelly. It wasn't brought to my attention, no, sir.
Mr. Clardy. But it became common knowledge that he was no
longer in good standing with the party.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right, he might just as well have gone to
church as join the Army.
Mr. Clardy. Joining the church, of course, as I understand it, is
the greatest sin a Communist could commit.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Velde. What was the attitude of the members of your cell
with reference to the cause of the Korean war? According to the
Communist Party members in your cell, who was the aggressor, the
North Koreans, the South Koreans, the United States?
Mr. Donnelly. The United States.
Mr. Velde. The United States was the aggressor according to
your fellow members of the Communist cell to which you belonged?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Velde. You said a moment ago in response to what was some-
what of a leading question from me that they took an active interest
in preventin*^ young men in this vicinity, especially their own mem-
bers, from joming the American armed services to fight in the Korean
war. Can you tell us a little bit more about that ? Did they preach the
peace movement in their meetings or just how did they go about that?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, I am sure everybody is aware of the Stockholm
48861—54 — pt, 10 4
5698 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Peace Pledge that was circulated. These petitions were circulated on
the Stockholm Peace Pledge, and we had— now, I don't remember
just exactly, whether it was 1949 or 1950, there was a peace confer-
ence held in Chicago, 111., and some of us went down there, and in fact,
there were people there from all over the United States. I met people
from California and just about every State in the Union was repre-
sented there, and it lasted 2 days, and it was all about this Stockholm
Peace Pledge and about tliis, well, world conditions, in general.
Mr. Velde. Where was the meeting held, Mr. Donnelly, in Chicago?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, I had no notes, and I had it written down on
there, the address, but
Mr. Velde. Would it have been the Sherman Hotel ? Was it in a
hotel, as you recall ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, it wasn't in a hotel. It was a large building.
Mr. Clardy. Was it at a school ?
Mr. Donnelly. It was a large building, as I remember, and we
had nearly the entire floor on this one floor.
Mr. Velde. Was it a building on Michigan Avenue facing the lake?
Mr. Donnelly. If I remember correctly, it wasn't verv far from
Wabash. I was at one time fairly well acquainted with Chicago. I
can't remember exactly where it was. There as
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Donnelly, before you go ahead with that, I want
you to know that the committee is investigating the meeting that was
held in Chicago as well as the whole Stockholm peace movement at the
time, and if you subsequently recall any more of the details concerning
the meeting in Chicago, the committee certainly would welcome that
information from you.
Mr. Donnelly. Well, there was a fellow there with me, Robert
Churchill, and he took notes, too. Bob and I were the only two that
liad a seat on the floor that day, and he took notes. Well, I don't know,
I lostmine, but evidently I understand that Bob has still got his or
Beatrice Churchill has, rather.
Mr. Velde. Eobert is the husband of Beatrice Churchill, is that
right?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right. So I imagine that if there is any
additional information, it could be gotten there.
Mr. Velde. Do you have any other information within your own
memory concerning the meeting in Chicago other than what you have
given us at the present time ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, they took up quite a few issues that first day.
I can't remember exactly what they were, but that night Bob and I
were paired off, and the place they sent us, the billet' that they had
for us for that night was away across town, and we finally got in there
and found out we was in an organizer's house, one of the Chicago or-
ganizers — they had a lady organizer there. I didn't have the pleasure
of meeting her. She wasn't there, but her husband was there, and they
put us up for the night, and the next morning we left, we went back
to the conference, and everybody is standing around, and nobody
seemed to be doing much, so Bob says, "Well, the rest of them are
getting drunk, so let's you and I," so I guess that's what happened.
1 remember Paul Robeson came in in the meantime, and I don't remem-
ber much of what he said because I was occupied elsewhere.
Mr. Velde. Do you know who was in charge of the meeting at that
time?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5699
Mr. Donnelly. No, I don't. , , , ,
Mr. Doyle. You mean a meeting, Mr. Chairman, where— I would be
interested, too; who was in charge of the meeting where you ail got
J -in
™r. Donnelly. Well, you see, they had a ^^^/oom where the
Ispeakers' platform was, and they also had their tables and the chairs
In there for the people that was taking notes on this thing, you know,
land was attending with the idea of getting something out o± it, 1 g^ess
but right outside the door there was a bar They had-well, it looked
like a bar that you might find in some of these old western towns, it
^-as just a makeshift Outfit, and that is what they were dispensing
their alcoholic beverages over, and that is where I and Bob proceeded
to get drunk.
tr. 'h^o^lJr:'}^:io^^^^^^^ think so. If it was, I spent
^ Mr?'CSEirtee you said that the Communist Party was
as imich opposed to volunteering for service m the Korean war as it
wasZ johSng the church, mat did you mean by your reference to
the Communist Party attitude toward religion ^ u^k^^, :;,,
Mr Donnelly. Well, they advocate atheism, and they believe m
mateHal things and not spiritual, and the first thing ^)-^\^^fX^^
a lot of trouble with this because I never was considered too smart
IVe got verv little education, and when I started reacling some of us
stuff that was put out by Engels and Marx and some of this other stuff,
well, I haJSe^w^^^^^^ match of my life, but the idea is that i-egard-
less of your bringing up, to indoctrinate you by scientihc methods
you \uS\ rather" tlfan the spiritual methods; like everything that
happens, there is a scientific reason for its happening.
Mr. Clardy. And Marx has the explanation. ,
Mr. Donnelly. That is right. You see if the religious people, the
reli^-ious world, would follow their one God as closely as the Com-
m mist people follow their four gods there wouldn't be any need of
this meeting, and by four gods I mean Marx, Engels, Lenm, and Stalm
M^DoYLE Mr. Chairman, in view of the witness' observation that
he never had much education, I think he stated he never went beyond
the seventh grade so far as formal schooling is concerned, is that
correct .
Mr. Donnelly. That is correct, yes, sir. , , -, .- +i,„
Mr. Doyle. Well, after all. Witness, isn't the greatest education the
university of hard knocks ? . • -i i
Mr Clardy. The university of experience, m other words. ,_ , ,
Mr. Doyle. The university of hard knocks and experience, isn t that
the greatest teacher ? „ , i i
Mr. Donnelly. I have had a lot of those knocks.
Mr. Doyle. So have I. ^^^. ,. , i. „^
Mr Clardy. I think I should say to you. Witness, that you have
been preceded on the stand by people who have Ph. D. and other
deorees. Your comprehension and understanding of the important
fundamentals of life and spiritual values far transcends that ot any-
one who has thus far been prating about communism and about the
degrees that they hold.
You know, those arrogant people go so far as to sometinies appeal
before us and bestow the title of intellectuals upon themselves. May
5700 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
^}vl ^^"' ^^^' ^^^ ^^^^ ^ ^^^ greater understanding of the problems :
of life and a better understanding of our country and what has made
It great than all of them put together, despite the fact that you say
you only went to the seventh grade. >
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy, may I concur thoroughly in those well
chosen words.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of any religious denomination
durmg the period of time you were in the Communist Party ?
,, ^J- P9NNELLY. This is off the record, but my mother, she belongs to
the bpirituahst Episcopal Church, and during the time that I did
belong to the party I joined that church.
Of course I don't think that I was exactly honest with the people
m the church. I didn't elaborate on my connection with the Com-
munist Party or anything, but I did, I used to attend church with my
mother, and I used to go down there quite a bit, and I did— I think
ff ^ Z^^^ *^' ^^" ^°^^^^^ check, and you could find my name on there.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, but during the period of your membership in
the party did you engage in religious activities at your church ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, I used to attend the church and take in the
functions of the church.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, don't you think that probably one of the
strongest magnets that pulled you away from the Communist Party
and the things it stands for was the spiritual as distinguished from the
material ?
Mr. Donnelly. I don't think— I know it.
Mr. Tavenner. You said in the earlier part of the testimony that
there was an individual whose first name you recall, but you could not
recall his last name, and for that reason you thought that you should
not attempt to mention him.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. I stated I would like for you to see if you could
identify the person to whom you referred as being present in this
hearing room. Will you get up, please, and walk down one aisle and
up the other and see if you can identify the individual whom you had
m mind ?
Mr. Donnelly. The man sitting back of the railing there.
Mr. Tavenner. Will the gentleman so pointed out come forward,
please ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is the gentleman.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that the gentleman ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is the gentleman.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you come forward, please, sir?
Mr. Witness, is this the person standing near you ? Is he the person
you referred to as having been a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Donnelly. He is.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall his first name?
Mr. Donnelly. Jerry.
Mr. Ta\t5nner. Wliat is it?
Mr. Donnelly. Jerry.
Mr. Tavenner. He was known to you as Jerry ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, that is all I will ask you for the moment
about that. Mr. Chairman, I would like the gentleman to be sworn
who is standing near the seat.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5701
Mr. Clardy. The gentleman is under siibpena. Raise your right
hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Baumkel. I do.
Mr. Ta\^nner. What is your name?
TESTIMONY OF SHERWOOD (JERRY) BAUMKEL, ACCOMPANIED BY
HIS COUNSEL, HARRY NEWBLATT
Mr. Baumkel. Sherwood Baumkel.
Mr. Clardy. Spell the last name ; it is difficult to hear.
Mr. Baumkel. Shall I be seated ?
Mr. Clardy. Yes.
Mr. Velde. Make a note to identify counsel, too.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I notice counsel is accompanying him.
Mr. Clardy. Let us have him spell his name and have counsel iden-
tify himself. Will you spell it loudly and slowly so we may hear it?
Mr. Baumkel. B-a — did you hear that ?
Mr. Clardy. Go ahead.
Mr. Baumkel. U-m-k-e-1.
Mr. Clardy. Will counsel identify himself ?
Mr. Newblatt. Harry Newblatt.
Mr. Clardy. What is is your pleasure, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Are you known by the first name of Jerry ?
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Baumkel. I request while testifying that no pictures be taken.
Mr. Clardy. I couldn't hear that.
Mr. Baumkel. I request while testifying that no pictures be taken.
Mr. Clardy. No pictures are being taken of you at the moment, but
they heard your request, I am sure. They will have i)lenty of oppor-
tunity when you have finished.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please ?
Mr. Baumkel. My birth name I gave. It is Sherwood Baumkel.
You heard that, I presume.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question ?
Mr. Baumkel. Would you repeat the question ?
Mr. Clardy. Witness, because of the reverberations that are some-
times caused, I think if you would stay a distance of about 6 or 8
inches from the microphone we could hear you a little better. It muf-
fles your voices, and I know you have a cold apparently in your throat.
Take it easy, and the Chair will work with you and try to make it
possible for you to be comfortable and for us to hear.
Mr. Tavenner. My question to you was whether or not you are
commonly known by your friends and neighbors as Jerry.
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Baumkel. My nickname is Jerry. My aunt at an early age
used to call me Sherry, but I couldn't go around with the nickname
Sherry, so people talk to me as Jerry. That is my nickname.
Mr. Tavenner. That is all I desire to ask you for the present.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, do you desire to have this witness ex-
cused from this position ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. From this position, I mean, at the moment.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
I
5702 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Baumkel. I am very able to testify here.
Mr. Clardy. He wants to ask questions of the other witnesses. Will
you continue with the other witness until the noon recess ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir-
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Then you may remain where you are,
witness. Switch the mike back to the other, please.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Donnelly, will you tell the committee,
please
Mr. Clardy. Pardon me, Mr. Tavenner. I think perhaps to avoid
any distraction and due to the fact that there may be some photo-
graphs of the witness taken on the stand that might be misinterpreted
by the other witness, I think I will ask the witness and his attorney
to retire from that position temporarily. We will recall you when
we are ready. In that way you will not be photographed while you
are sitting there.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Donnelly, will you tell the committee, please,
the circumstances under which you knew the person you just identified
as Jerry as having been a member of the Communist Party ?
TESTIMONY OF HERBERT H. DONNELLY— Resumed
Mr. Donnelly. Well, I have attended meetings with him, and he«
was a frequent adviser at White's.
Mr. Tai'enner. Wliere ?
Mr. Donnelly. At White's, Jack White's. I worked with him on
papers and what have you.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where he worked ?
Mr. Donnelly. Buick.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he one of the colonizers who came in ?
Mr. Donnelly. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. He was a colonizer ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any other information; that is, in-
formation — not information, but do you have any knowledge from
him as to where he lived before coming to Flint ?
I don't want you to testify on the basis of hearsay, but only in the
event that he told you or you had some other means of knowing where
he was from.
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir, I don't actually know.
Mr. Doyle. Counsel, the witness again states that he attended meet-
ings with Jerry, but he did not say what kind of meetings. Am I to
assume they were Communist Party meetings ?
Mr. Donnelly. Communist Party meetings, yes, sir.
Mr. D0Y1.E. May it be understood as far as this witness' testimony
is concerned, Mr. Chairman, if it is a fact, that whenever this witness
says he has attended meetings with any of these persons he has
named or does name, that the witness means Communist Party meet-
ings ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right, yes.
Mr. Doyle. Is that an accurate statement?
Mr. Donnelly. That is an accurate statement ; yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. The record will so show.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5703
Mr Tavenner. Can you recall at this time any particular activities
n the Communist Party which were engaged in by the person you
dentified as Jerry ? ^ . -i- <.
Mr Donnelly. No, I can't remember anything outstandmg, out-
side of the fact that leaflet distribution— leaflet distribution and things
di that order.
Mr. Velde. Wliat kind of leaflets?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, it was party stuff, but usually it was put out
in some other form, I mean, so it wouldn't be recognized.
Mr. Velde. Probably having to do with the peace movement
Mr. Donnelly. Leaflets concernino: the union and what have you,
but it was really— it was put out by the party in the union's name.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Donnelly, since the person you identified as
Jerry has advised you that his name was Sherwood or Jerry Baum-
kel, does that refresli your recollection as to his last name, or do you
'still fail to recall his last name? ,
Mr. Donnelly. That is— the only real confusion here was there
was two names that was really— the first names were similar, and I
wasn't too sure, and I didn't want to make a mistake at the time that
'1 came in here, so that is why I withheld saying anything.
Mr. Tavenner. There is no doubt in your mind that the person you
identified as Jerry is the person to whom you referred as a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Donnelly. No doubt whatsoever.
Mr. Tavenner. And as one of the colonizers.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. I have no further questions, Mr. Donnelly, but I do
want to say that the committee does appreciate the testimony which
you have given. Yon have given it in a straightforward manner,
and so far as I have been able to judge from hearing a great many
witnesses in the past, entirely truthful. I am sure it will be very
helpful to this committee, and I appreciate the patriotic service you
liave rendered for the country to this committee of the United States
Congress.
Mr. Donnelly. Thank you.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. To that may I add, Mr. Chairman, that I hope that
the employers and employees of the automobile industry in Flint and
area will know that it is the policy of their United States Congress,
as you say, Mr. Velde, to appreciate when former Communists come
forward and help the United States Congress through this commit-
tee or any other way or help the FBI as this witness has, to under-
stand the danger of the Communist conspiracy. So I hope, Mr.
Chairman — I am certain, let me put it that way — that every patriotic
fellow employee of this witness as he returns to a job, will give him
a pat on the back instead of a cuss.
Now, that leads me to say, Mr. Chairman, that when yesterday I
heard a few of these witnesses who were snbpenaed complain about
losing time on their jobs — I wish to call attention that today when
these same people are not under siil)])ena, several of them are in this
hearing room. In other words, thev are losir.rr time at their own
5704 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
expense from their jobs. I just feel it is fair to the committee and to
Congress and to these people who yesterday complained about being
subpenaed on the grounds that they were losing money. They are
losing money today apparently because many of them are in the back j
end of this room listening to this testimony. Iji
Now, may I say this : On yesterday. Mr. Chairman, I read a state- i
ment by UAW-CIO, Mr. Walter P. Reuther, president, under date '
of _ Sunday, May 2, 1954, and I think again in view of the fact that
this witness has made such a valuable contribution to our knowledge
of the colonization of the automobile industry by phony residents of
Flint— in other words, by people that deliberately came in here to do t
a dirty, nasty, stinking job, that at this time it would be appropriate
to read one paragraph from Mr. Reuther's statement which I read t
yesterday, and I read from his resolution, May 2, 1954, and I quote, i
and I want the members of the trade unions in the room and all others i
to note now that this paragraph, I think, especially applies to what i
this witness and the Chair has now done, so here we have a statement
from one of the leading organized labor leaders of the United States
on this very situation. I quote :
Protecting the good name of innocent i>eopIe and their families does not absolve
the former Communist from his patriotic duty as a citizen to testify fully of his
first-hand knowledge of the names and activities of any Communist Party func-
tionary, of any illegal activity, any evidence of conspiracy to overthrow the
Government by force or violence, or evidence of a nature that would serve to
strengthen the security of our Nation, while at the same time refusing to testify
of any matter of which he has no direct, first-hand knowledge or any matter that
happened so far in the past that his memory cannot be relied upon with any
degree of accuracy.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I think that that statement of Mr. Reuther as
the president of the UAW-CIO in this very area, nationwide, ought
to lay at rest whether or not the employee colleagues of this witness
should receive him cordially and give him a pat on the back.
I would take it, Mr, Chairman, that any employee or any auto work-
er in this area that goes contrary to this declaration by Mr. Reuther
can well be scrutinized pretty well as possibly pretty closely identified
with the Communist conspiracy.
At any rate, here is the declaration of union policy fitting right into
this instant case that is today before us.
Now may I take another minute or two.
On yesterday, witness, we had several men, one woman, I think,
whom I notice in the back of the room again this morning, raising
their constitutional privilege, which we always compliment them in
doing when it is in good faith. Why didn't you come here this morn-
ing and raise the first and the fourth and the fifth amendments— in
fact, all the Constitution of the United States— in defense ? Wliat is
your motive in coming here without a lawyer and testifying freely
before this committee? Aren't you afraid of incrimination in some
way?
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. "VVliat is it that motivates you to come ? Are you being
paid for it ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Have you been offered any inducement or any promise
or any pledge ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5705
Mr. DoTLE. Either directly or indirectly ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir. . i .1 •
Mr Doyle. Well, the other witnesses on yesterday accepted tlieir
A'itness fee as provided bv the Government when they testified, i
luppose you will receive at least a witness' fee as provided by law,
ivon't you ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir. I am strictly on my own.
Mr. Doyle. Strictly what?
Mr. Donnelly. On my own. . . , - -i . i
Mr. Doyle. Well, those who use the constitutional privilege accepted
their fee, which is all right. It is according to law. ^
Mr Clardy. May I remind you, Mr. Doyle, that at Lansing one ot
the witnesses advanced to the clerk's desk and received or signed the
/oucher which will eventually produce the witness' fee and expenses
and remarked, after having taken the fifth amendment up one side
and down the other while on the stand, now I quote :
I suppose you will be surprised when I tell you I intend donating this money
to the Communist Party.
That Mr. Doyle, took place at Lansing.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask then this witness a few important questions
.hat I believe are very important for our record and information on
the question of these colonizers ?
You were a member of the party, witness, in 1946 and severed your
connection in 1951. You referred in your testimony to a final break.
1 think I heard you say that, that there was a final break, f-i-n-a-1.
Wliat do you mean by a final break ?
Mr. Donnelly. You mean my final break?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. Did you have more than one break ?
Mr. Donnelly. No; I had a tapering-off period, and then I had
the break, the break that I severed all connection.
Mr. Doyle. ^Vliat did you find in the Communist Party other than
you have testified to, I mean the objective of the Communist Party
other than you have testified to, if anything, that made it so that you
couldn't tolerate or stomach it any longer? _ ,. t n
Mr. Donnelly. One thing, I have always been mtersted m— i could
never understand from a little child on up why there should be such
a thing as segregation. I don't believe in it, I never have, and I never
will. Well, at that time it seemed that the Communist Party was the
only thing that was doing anything about it, and it wasn't until I got
into it as deep as I did that I found out that they were just using the
Negro people for tlieir own end.
Mr. Doyle. Let me hear this again. Did I hear you say that after
you crot into the Communist Party you found that they were using the
alleged segregation of the Negro people for their own ends and were
not m good faith in fighting segregation ? u x i,
Mr. Donnelly. Well, they put up a fight on it, yes, but why
sliouldn't they ? In the first place, it is like a salesman getting his
foot in the door, you know. This gave them a chance, I mean, it give
tiiem a place to work, a concentration point, so as long as they could
concentrate with the Negro people and give them support m the shop,
they would give them the support at the ballot box and what have you.
and they figure that as long as there had been segregation, the Negro
48861 — 54 — pt. 10 5
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5705
Mr. Doyle. Either directly or indirectly ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Well, the other witnesses on yesterday accepted their
witness fee as provided by the Government when they testified. I
suppose you will receive at least a witness' fee as provided by law,
won't you ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir. I am strictly on my own.
Mr. Doyle. Strictly wdiat ?
Mr. Donnelly. On my own.
Mr. Doyle. Well, those who use the constitutional privilege accepted
their fee, which is all right. It is according to law.
Mr. Clardy. May I remind you, Mr. Doyle, that at Lansing one of
the witnesses advanced to the clerk's desk and received or signed the
voucher which will eventually produce the witness' fee and expenses
and remarked, after having taken the fifth amendment up one side
and down the other while on the stand, now I quote :
I suppose you will be surprised when I tell you I intend donating this money
to the Communist Party.
That Mr. Doyle, took place at Lansing.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask then this witness a few important questions
that I believe are very important for our record and information on
the question of these colonizers ?
You were a member of the party, witness, in 1946 and severed your
connection in 1951. You referred in your testimony to a final break.
1 think I heard you say that, that there was a final break, f-i-n-a-1.
Wliat do you mean by a final break ?
Mr. Donnelly. You mean my final break ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. Did you have more than one break ?
Mr. Donnelly. No; I had a tapering-off period, and then I had
the break, the break that I severed all connection.
Mr. Doyle. "Wliat did you find in the Communist Party other than
you have testified to, I mean the objective of the Communist Party
other than you have testified to, if anything, that made it so that you
couldn't tolerate or stomach it any longer ?
Mr. Donnelly. One thing, I have always been intersted in — I could
never understand from a little child on up why there shoul-l be such
a thing as segregation. I don't believe in it, I never have, and I never
will. Well, at that time it seemed that the Communist Party was the
only thing that was doing anything about it, and it wasn't until I got
into it as deep as I did that I found out that they were just using the
Negro people for their own end.
Mr. Doyle. Let me hear this again. Did I hear you say that after
you got into the Communist Party you found that they were using the
alleged segregation of the Negro people for their own ends and were
not in good faith in fighting segregation ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, they put up a fight on it, yes, but why
sliouldn't they? In the first place, it is like a salesman gei'ting his
foot in the door, you know. This gave them a chance, I mean, it give
them a place to work, a concentration point, so as long as they could
concentrate with the Negro people and give them support in the shop,
they would give them the support at the ballot box and what have you.
and they figure that as long as there had been segregation, the Negro
48861 — 54— pt. 10 5
I
5706 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
people had been a depressed people, you know, that they could use
this thing, by making them think they were friendly, voii know, and
they were doing things and like the Willie McGee case and the Rose
Ingram case— I worked on both of them— and I believe with all my
heart that if the party had left the Willie McGee case alone — I am
not saying the guy wasn't guilty— but it was the extreme penalty that
he received for the crime he was supposed to be guilty of — I mean, if
it had been a white man, there was a big chance that he wouldn't have
got the gas chamber.
Mr. Doyle. Wasn't the Communist Party during your 4 or 5 years
in it in the Flint-Detroit area friendly to the Negro in good faith or
was that just a phony friendship?
]Mr. Donnelly. Well, you can draw j^our own conclusion there, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Well, is my conclusion erroneous that I am drawing
when I say, do I understand your testimony to be that the attitude
of the Conuiiunist Party in Flint and Detroit at the time you were
in it, which appeared to be actually friendly to the Negro, was not in
fact friendly?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, all I am doing is expressing my feeling, my
personal feelings.
Mr. Doyle. That is all I want.
Mr. Donnelly. That the Negro people were necessary. I mean, if
you are going to put over something as big as this is, you ha^•e to have
backing, you know; a general without an army, well, he might just
as well stay home. He has to have an army.
Well, what safer way, what quicker way, and what better way is
there to get that army than to work on people that have been kicked
around? So that is what they done.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, they were using the American Negro.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right. I mean, instead of trying to see this
whole thing, it boils down to education of whites and Negroes alike.
I mean, they have been looking down their nose at each otlier, you
know, for years. This thing is something that shouldn't ever have
been to begin with. We are all human, we are all of the hr.man race.
Mr. Doyle. One reason, Mr. Chairman, that I raise this question
about the American Negro is that I am sure my colleagues know that
in my great congressional district in Los Angeles County, I have the
responsibility and I will say the honor of representing many thous-
ands of the American Negroes, and they are grand people in my
county ; and all over the Nation, I am sure you will agree with me,
we find that the Communist Party deliberately is using the American
Negro as a tool.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. But, Mr. Doyle, may I point out that the evidence
presented before this committee demonstrates that they are probably
having less success with that group than any other group in the
country.
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. That and the foreign born are the most stubborn
resistors to this ideologv because they both realize the phony nature
of the effort. Isn't that true ?
Mr. Doyle. That is true.
Mr. Velde. May I say, Mr. Chairman, that the committee recently
voted to issue a pamphlet which will probably be entitled, "The Amer-
5708 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
know this, so don't quote me as any actual statement — but it is my
understanding that local 600, that is the Ford local, that each one of
those buildings had a union president, and each one of those presidents
was a member of the party.
Mr. Doyle. Member of what party ?
Mr. Donnelly. The Communist JParty, and that this investigation
that they had in Detroit, the word got out that this was Reuther's
way of taking over — this investigation, he was supposed to be the
guy behind it. I don't know whether he took any bows afterward or
not, but Reuther was supposed to be behind this investigation in
Detroit for the simple reason that he had the majority of the locals,
the smaller locals, and some of the bigger locals, he had control of
them, but there were two locals that he didn't have control of, and
local 600 was one of them, and by having this investigation and bring-
ing these people out, he weeded out the Connnunist element at local
600, and if I remember correctly, it wasn't long after that that they
had an investigation here at Flint. It didn't get very big, in fact it
didn't go anywhere, there wasn't anything came out of it, but the fact
that this thing — the story went around then that Reuther's boys are in
Flint, kind of "jump the gun," too fast on the heels of this investiga-
tion in Detroit — is why the thing in Flint here missed fire.
Mr. Doyle. Well, all right. Now, let me ask you this point: You
stated that a colonizer remains quiet for the probationary period of
90 days. The unions had no control after that.
Mr. Donnelly. The unions — they had to fight for them after 90
days.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask a question along that line
because, as I heard this witness testify, and we have heard similar testi-
mony in other places recently, it worries me no end to find that a bunch
of commies can move from one part of our Nation to another deliber-
ately to foster the Communist conspiracy and try to take over control of
American unions, labor unions, and here apparently is one of those
things, and the thing that worries me is, as I understand it, from this
testimony today and before, all these colonizers representing the
Communist Party had to do was to make a transfer of their residence in
a phony manner from New York and other places to Flint and man-
agement employed them, not knowing they were commies, and appar-
ently without the sort of screening that helped them to discover they
were commies, and that was difficult, I know. That raises a point in my
thinking, Mr. Chairman, of whether or not there shouldn't be more
screening before these people are hired.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Doyle, may I remind you of something. It is
pretty difficult sometimes because they can even arrange phony refer-
ences as you heard testified to yesterday.
Mr. Doyle. I know that, but at any rate — and I am not criticizing
management, I am just thinking out loud — but my worry is when
management hires these commies, then they are required as I under-
stand it under agreement with the unions to make application for a
union membership, and then they lay low and keep quiet, both in their
plants and in unions, for 90 days, and then they are set. Is that what
you meant when you referred to a 90-day probationary period?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, sir. The constitution states, as long as the
Communist Party is not outlawed, they cannot — if a man gets fired
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5709
for Communist activities in the shop, or if he has any trouble, the
union still has to represent him.
Mr. Clardy, You are giving one of the best arguments in the world
for the bill that I have introduced to outlaw the Communist Party.
' Go right ahead.
Mr. Donnelly. I didn't know I was making a political speech,
ibut
Mr. Doyle. Wliat jobs of these colonizers that you have referred
I to as intellectuals from New York that came in about the same time
! within apparently a period of a very few months of one another, what
jobs did they take, to your knowledge, in these plants or in the plant
where you were working ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, machine jobs, working on machines.
Mr. Doyle. But the testimony is here that some of them were grad-
uate civil enginneers with degrees.
Did or did not, to your personal knowledge, these colonizers, the
Communist Party members that were known to you to be Communist
Party members, do anything to try to take over control of the labor
unions in this area, their leadership ?
Mr. Donnelly. Yes, there was a movement in that direction. We
organized what was called the unity caucus of Buick.
Mr. Doyle. The what ?
Mr. Donnelly. Unity caucus.
Mr. Doyle. Wlio organized the unity caucus ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, it was a brainchild of party members within
the Buick local.
Mr. Doyle. By "party members," you mean it was the brainchild
of the Communist Party members ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. Within the Buick local ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. Wliat did they do with their brainchild ?
Mr. Donnelly. Well, he didn't get very big, but they had a cau-
cus — we had a caucus, I should say, of mostly party members. There
were a few Negroes in it. Of course that is one of the things. They
did that, in fact, on every election they had over there, if one of
these slates that was running — by "slates" I mean these caucuses put
out slates, like, you know, when you are running for Congress, you
tell what you are going to do and what you are not going to do ; well,
they do the same thing. So every time anything like that, they usually
print a leaflet on there that this slate lacked — this had only 1 or 2
Negroes on there or maybe only one on there and accused them of
being anti-Negro and this, that, and the other thing.
Well, they couldn't do that with that caucus we had, this Unity
Caucus, because there were quite a few Negroes on it, but most of
these fellows were just guys that had been dragged in, but the steer-
ing committee, the guys that was really pushing this little thing along
and running the show, it was strictly Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, the Communist Party in Flint and
Buick that had the Buick local that you have referred to held cau-
cuses preliminary to the voting by the union or union leadership, is
that correct ?
Mr. Donnelly. That is right, yes.
t
5710 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Doyle. And the Communist Party in the Buick local, there-
fore, holding preliminary caucuses, caucuses prior to the union elec-
tions so steered the union elections that they tried to get Communist
Party members into union top positions of leadership, is that correct?
Mr. DoxxELLY. Well, even if they didn't get clear to the top,
they would be close enough so that they could control the top. That
was the main thing. Now, like there was one fellow in this caucus.
I have known him for years, and I would almost swear my life that
he wasn't a Communist and never had been a Communist. I think
they were running him for either president or financial secretary.
Now I don't remember which, but here is the idea, if he would have got
in, whether he was a party member or not, he would have still been
controlled.
Mr. DoYT.E. Then as I understand your testimony a minute ago,
it was in these unity caucuses which were in fact Communist caucuses,
but they invited into the caucus to make a show, a phony show, actu-
ally, several Negro employees of Buick.
Mr. Donnelly. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. Now one more question. You said "we put out leaflets.
They were put out hy the party in the union's name." Do I understand
that the Communist Party was so strong that during the time you
were in it thatthe Communist Party leadership was printing \he
name of the union on leaflets which were in fact Communist Party
leaflets?
Mr. Donnelly. Perhaps I had better clarify that a little bit.
Mr. Doyle. I wish you would.
Mr. Donnelly. They weren't using any specific name but what I
mean is, it carried the union bug, all their 'stuff carried the union bug,
and it certainly didn't have Communist Party stamped in boxcar
letters on it or any other kind of letters. I mean, it was to give the idea
that it was put out by members of the union. Of course from time to
time we have had diif erent caucuses spring up. Over a period of years
there have been different fellows in there who have branched off in
this caucus and tried to start one of their own. Like a member of one
church branching off and starting another denomination because he
don't believe in what the church he is going to believes in. It is a whole
lot on that order, but I mean, they weren't doing this, like they got a
rank and file caucus there at Buick, but they wouldn't do this in the
name of rank and file. They wouldn't do it in the name of Progressives
for Action, but nevertheless it carried the union stamp and anyone
looking at it would figure, you know, it was right from the horse's
mouth.
JNfr. Doyle. INfr. Chairman, because I have taken so much time of the
committee and of this witness, more time than I have taken with any
other witness, may I have the record show and have this group who
are hearing this discussion understand, that I have never met with this
witness before in my life, have I, witness ?
Mr. Donnelly. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. We have never talked about what your testimony would
be or my questions would be, have we ?
Mr. Donnelly. I never saw you, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I thought the record should show that. There was no
communication of any kind prior to this discussion on the witness
stand between this witness and myself.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5711
Thank you very much.
]\fr. Clardy. That is true for all three of the members of the subcom-
mittee, is it not, witness ?
IMr. Donnelly. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, I didn't know what the answers of this
witness would be to these questions.
Mr. Clakdy. Witness, you have heard from the other two members
of this subcommittee an expression of our appreciation of what you
have done for your Government, for your country. May I add to it
the fact that this committee, of which Mr. Velde is the chairman — I
am speaking of the wliole committee — has had before it a considerable
number of cooperative witnesses who have added much to the necessary
knowledge your Congress must possess if it is to legislate intelligent I3^
You have added a tremendous volume of worthwhile knowledge to
our already bulging storehouse. But addressing myself to you and
to those with whom you work, may I remind them as well as you that
a basic concept of the Christian religion is forgiveness. You have
demonstrated, sir, by the fact that you have appeared here today that
you realized full well the intellectual errors into which you fell. You,
in my opinion, have more than atoned for that mistake, and know-
ing the American people and the American workmen as I do, and
knowing from experience with other witnesses who, like yourself,
have been members of the party and come forward and helped this
committee, knowing all those things, I am very sure that you will
find in the hearts of your fellow workers, the kind of Christian for-
giveness that you deserve. May I tell you in one last word of en-
couragement that on many occasions witnesses like yourself, who
have appeared have gone back to their plants and to their shops and
to their homes and to their neighbors and found complete understand-
ing and complete forgiveness. I am sure that will be the case in this
instance because I think I know some of the people in this community
well enough to have faith in their reactions. I am certain that from
here on out this committee, representing, as it does, the greatest gov-
ernment on earth, will do all within its power to see that justice is
done in your case. I thank you most deeply.
Mr. Donnelly. I thank you.
Mr. Clardy. Witness excused.
Before you call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner, a very odd com-
munication comes to my attention. It is odd in the sense that the
person involved should be involved. It seems that in identifying
and then calling forward the witness yesterday by the name of Dean,
some little confusion has arisen, and I am reminded by my very good
friend and the new Federal Judge, Ealph Freeman, of the fact that
in his firm there is a gentleman by the name of Rees Dean, who
apparently has in the minds of a few been confused with the Dean
who appeared on the stand. I have been given the address of the two
gentlemen, and I shall read it into the record so that anyone in this
community who has any doubt about the identity of the Dean who
took the stand yesterday will have that doubt dispelled.
Rees Dean is an attorney at 614 Citizens Bank Building, and his
residence is 807 Fremont. Max Dean, who appeared here, has an
address of G-5046 North Saginaw and a residence of G-4462— it looks
like Winters Drive. At any rate, it is not on Fremont Street. I
hope that there will be no further confusion of the Deans in this case.
5712 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Now call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Sherwood Baumkel, please.
Mr. Clardt. You may be seated, witness. You have already been
sworn.
Mr. Tavenner. You were sworn a few moments ago and gave us
your name as Sherwood Baumkel, I believe ?
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
TESTIMONY OF SHERWOOD (JERRY) BAUMKEL, ACCOMPANIED BY
HIS COUNSEL, HARRY NEWBLATT— Resumed
Mr. Baumkel. I request that while I was testifying no pictures
shall be taken.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Baumkel. Was that right granted me ?
Mr. Clardy. I said to Mr. Tavenner to proceed.
Mr. Baumkel. Would you repeat the question, please?
Mr. Tavenner. You were sworn a feAv moments ago and identified
yourself as Sherwood Baumkel. did you not?
Mr. Baumkel. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Sherwood Baumkel.
Mr. Baumkel. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Herbert Donnelly, the
person who identified you as Jerry ?
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Tavenner. While you were called before the committee.
Mr. Baumkel. I decline to answer on the basis — in good and clear
conscience I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment,
and I have other grounds which I would like to state for my refusal
to answer.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Baumkel. I feel that under the first amendment to our Consti-
tution, which guarantees freedom of press and speech, it also entitles
me to privacy of mind and conscience which I hold as sacred as the
privacy of a ballot box. I also feel that the tactics and these
questions violate my rights under the eighth amendment which deals
with cruel and unjust punishment. Three days prior to my scheduled
appearance here this committee, based on disclosures of this commit-
tee, issued my name, my wife's name, appeared in the papers as Com-
munist colonizers from the East.
Mr. Clardy. May I correct you there, witness? The committee
made no release, made no statement, and every reporter present here
will tell you that when the information was requested as to the names
of persons subpenaed, my answer was a flat refusal. I am not respon-
sible, and the committee is not responsible for any revelation. You
must have, in some incautious moment, have done that yourself.
Mr. Velde. Let me ask you, Are you a Communist colonizer from
the East?
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Baumkel. I didn't finish stating my reasons for
Mr. Clardy. You will be permitted to do that the moment you
answer Chairman Velde's question.
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5713
Mr. l^AUMKEL. 1 decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Now proceed with tlie statement of the
other gronnd.
Mr. Bauisikel. In the papers three days prior to my scheduled
appearance here, I was called a Communist colonizer from the East,
that is a violation of all due process and that my appearance here is
supposed to be — I am supposed to be presumed innocent of anything
until ]H'oven guilty of something, and the tactics this committee uti-
lizes incites to mob violence and also threatens my home and my fam-
ily, and on those bases, including the 6th and the 14th amend-
ment, which deals with due process, I feel this is a legislative connnit-
tee and has no right to arrogate judicial rights while denying me all
judicial rights. This committee denies me all judicial rights and
abrogates to itself full judicial rights. I refuse to answer on those
bases that question.
Mr. Clardy, Before you proceed, Mr.^
Mr. Baumkel. I primarily invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Before you proceed, Mr. Tavenner, I want to make
a couple of observations first. This is not a court, despite the state-
ment that you made, and we are not trying anyone, but the other thing
is this: There appeared in the Detroit Free Press on Monday, May 3,
the day we started the hearings, a number of advertisements. I only
happen to have one of them here, and I find that the person who signed
it included a great number — not your name — in this particular one,
but a great number of those who have appeared here, for instance, the
name of Max Trachtenberg, both of the Borods — not Max Trachten-
berg. I am in error there. May Trachtenberg who had been under
subpena and the brother of the one who was subpenaed — Jack White,
Barry Blassingame, who is under subpena, and then a whole host of
those who were before us at either Detroit or Lansing. I call atten-
tion to the fact that in this ad they, themselves, make it public knowl-
edge that they have been subpenaed, and so I want to ask you, did you
join in any of the ads of that kind that a number of the peoT>]e who
were under subpena have had appear in the newspapers ?
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Baumkel. Could you be a little more specific ? That question
is very vague. Is that in reference to that specific ad ?
Mr, Clardy. I called your attention to the specific ad and I made
it clear that your name was not listed, but the names of a great many
others who have been subpenaed, most of whom have already appeared
before us, did put this ad in the paper. Now, my question was. Did
you put a similar ad attacking the committee and listing your name
into any newspaper ? This appeared on the morning of the day and
before we started our hearing.
Mr. Baumkel. I did not.
Mv. Clardy. You did not. Did you issue any statements, or did
you reply to any questions propounded to you by the press?
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Baumkel. The press never approached me.
Mr. Ci/ARDY. Did you make any statement that appeared in any of
the ]^apers ]niblished by the labor unions or any of the papers pub-
lished by the Communist Party ?
4SS<?1— 54 — pt. 10 6
5714 COMMUNIST ACTRITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN '
(At tliis point Mr. Baiimkel conferred with Mr. Xewblatt.)
Mr. BAi':\rKEL. Would yon separate that question, labor unions and
Connnunist Party ?
Mr. Clakdy. Xo: I will let the question stand, because I am tryino-
to save a little time. ' ^^
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Clardy. You can answer it in two parts if you want.
Mr. Baumkel. Are you tying in the union with the Communist
Party?
Mr. Clardy. I say you may answer it in two parts if you want.
Mr. Baumkel. Would you repeat that question once more, please ?
Mr. Clardy. I will rephrase it and make it even broader. Have
you joined in any statement or have you issued any statement or
have you talked to any representative of any newspaper, whether it
be the Detroit papers, the Flint papers, the Lansing papers, the union
papers, tlie Communist papers, or any other kind ?
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Baumkel. Do you mean that question to understand that I
contacted any newspapermen or any nature of that sort and issued a
statement ?
Mr. Clardy. Oh, Witness, I think you understand, but I will explain
it to you.
You made the very wild charge that this committee had issued a
statement of some kind identifying you as one under subpena. That
isn't true because we haven't done so. Now, I am trying to find out
whether, by any means, you have been responsible for letting the
public know that you were under subpena, so I am patiently trying
to discover whether you talked to or were talked to by anybody from
the press, the radio, television, what have you.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, Mr. Chairman, to help the witness,
we have here this newspaper ad with the big heading, ""Wlio's
un-American?" and on the bottom of that is the printed names, I
presume they were authorized by these people, of some of the people
who were subpenaed.
Mr. Clardy. Nineteen of them, to be exact.
Mr. Baumkel. So. I didn't tell any newspaper, press, or television
that I was a college graduate that came here to colonize.
Mr. Clardy. Did you tell anybody anything about the fact that
;v ou were under subpena ?
Mr. Baumkel. No. I did not discuss with the radio, press, or tele-
vision my subpena.
]\Ir. Clardy. Did you tell anybody ?
Mr. Baumkel. Yes, I told somebody that T was subpenaed.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Proceed. Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think in light of the discussion, it
might be well for the record to disclose that at the time that there
a]^peared in the press in Detroit the names of nearly all of the witnesses
who turned out to take refuge under the fifth amendment, that mem-
bers of the press called me as a representative of the committee at
the time in Detroit, nnd I would not even verify the fact that these
persons had been subpenaed. Aii}'^ information that was in the press
in regaid to it Avas information which emanated from those who had
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5715
been siibpenaed and did not emanate from this conmiittee, and that
has been the standing rule of this committee.
Mr. Clardy. It is. It has been an unofficial rule. There is nothing
wrong in it, we have a perfect right to do it, but in an excess of caution
we have leaned over backward and not released any information about
it, but unfortunately, a great many of those who have been called
before us, not only here, but everywhere, rush into the press with the
general idea apparently that they can, by blasting statements, some-
how or other arouse public indignation against the connnittee.
Now, you say you talked to someone, and that is as far as it went ; we
will let the matter rest.
Mr. Baumkel. Mr. Chairman, since strong inferences have been
placed on educational background, I feel that you should interrogate
my educational background since I have never been to a university.
Mr. Clardy. We will get to the whole
Mr. Bau^ikel. Or anything of this sort of which I am supposed
to have had a degree or college training and intelligentsia.
Mr. Clardy, Just be patient, Witness.
Mr. Baumkel. I mean these are strong inferences that have been
made and people approach me and ask me did I ever go to college and
I have to tell them "No," I had a year of high school, and a year and
a half of high school.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Save your ammunition until counsel has
propounded •
Mr. Baumkel. I don't want to be confused with intelligentsia. You
have made a strong accusation. People approach me and ask me if
I read Shakespeare and things of that sort. I want to make it clear
that I am not a member of the intelligentsia because the closest I came
to a university was to Avatch a football game, and I enjoyed it. That
is as close as I ever came to — to that.
INIr. Clardy. I say you make it very clear, but it is not yet a crime
in America to have a college education, I hope.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, when and where
you were born ?
jVIr. Baumkel. I was born in a hospital in New York City.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien ?
Mr. Baumkel. In 1926, July 24.
Mr. Tavenner. AVliat is your occupation ?
Mr. Baumkel. I am presently- — do you mean what I am doing ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Ml-. Batohkel. Do you want where I Avork, my place of work?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Baumkel. You Avant to knoAv where I am employed ?
]SIr. Taatenner. Yes.
Mr. Baumkel. I will be glad to say I am employed at the Buick
Motor Car Division. I work in production, dealing Avith cases. I
inspect them, I inspect cases ; I guess you would call it an occupation.
My occupation is inspecting cases.
Mr. Taatenner. How long have you been working at that employ-
ment at Buick?
Mr. Baumkel. I have been working at Buick approximately 5 years.
5716 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavexner. Where do joii resided
Mr. Baumkel. My place of address?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Baumkel. I would prefer to put that in writing. I woald nnich
prefer to put that in writing because the tactics demonstrated here
are incitements to mob violence. This pat on the back stuff
Mr. Clardy. Witness, that will be enough.
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearinir room at
this point.)
Mr. Clardy. Give the answer to the question, What is your address?
Mr. Baumkel. I request to put it in writing.
Mr. Clardy. You will recite it aloud. You are so directed by the
Chair.
Mr. Baumkel. I live at 3106 Charity Street.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Taatenner. You stated that you were employed at the Buick
plant about 5 years ago. What month of the year was it and what
year?
Mr. Baumkel. What month of the year I was employed ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Baumkel. I began my employment, sir
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. At Buick ?
Mr. Baumkel. As far as I can recollect, I began my emplovment.
sir, in July of 1949. ^ ^ .y
Mr. Tavenner. Had you lived in Flint prior to July 1949?
Mr. Baumkel. No, I never lived in Flint prior to — I think you said
July 1949, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you live prior to coming to Flint?
Mr. Baumkel. T came to Flint from my birthplace, New York City.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the approximate date of your arrival in
Flint from New York City?
Mr. Baumkel. Approximate. It was sometime — I think it was
about the middle, around the middle of July of 1949.
Mr. Ta\-enner. Plow were you employed in New York immediately
prior to your coming to Flint?
Mr. Baumkel. I have been working since the age of 14 years old
in many various
]Mr. Tavenner. My question related to the time in 1949 just prior
to your coming to Flint.
Mr. Baumkel. Just prior to my coming here I was one of the un-
fortunate unemployed workers drawing unemployment compensation,
$20 a week.
Mv. Tavenner. What was the last employment you had prior to
coming to Flint in July 1949 ?
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Baumkel. I have worked at about 10 different jobs
Mr. Tavenner. Just the last one.
Mr. Bauinikel. The last one prior to working here ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mv. Baumkel. I worked for William Shalnd Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat is that?
Mr. Baumkel. William Shalnd, I think, Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the name, please? I didn't under-
stand it.
Mr. Baumkel. I couldn't guarantee the spelling.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5717
Mr. Tavenner. Well, as correctly as you can.
Mr. Baumkel. It is 6 years ago. S-h-1-a-d, something like that,
3-h-a-l-n-d. . _„.,,. ,
Mr. Tavenner. And the first name is William i
Mr. Baumkel. William. .,
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat type of employment did you have there with
^^Mr.'BiuMKEL. Well, I was with that firm part time after school
when I went to high school. I was with them from cleaning atrmes to
rhipping clerk to^alesman, pushing a truck I have worked many
jobs with that concern. I did janitor work, shipping clerk work, sell-
"^flT.*^TAVENNER. Where was the firm located, its place of business?
Mr Baumkel. New York City.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. That was the last employment you had betore com-
ing to Flint?
Mr. Baumkel. That is right. ^ u „„
Mr. Tavenner. What wSs the date that that employment began
und ended ? ^ • i. j ?4. ^^„ 9
Mr. Baumkel. You mean the approximate, don t you i
Mr. Tavenner. Approximate, yes. -^ +^.,^0=
Mr. Baumkel. This is going to be pretty rough because it traces
back to after school part-time work which goes back-
Mr. Tavenner. Let it
Mr. Baumkel. It goes back for 10 years. ^i,^ u^f
Mr Tavenner. Let us begin at the time— you said it was the last
employmeTyou had before doming to New York. Wlien did that em-
ploymentend? . • io/)q
Mr. Baumkel. It terminated sometime m 1949 tPrminate
Mr. Tavenner. You came here m July 1949. Did it t^rniinate
earlier than May 1949, would you say; try to give us the best mtor-
"^mTbI^mkel. I think that May would be a close approximation. I
wouldn't define it as exact. I think that would be very close, sir
Mr Tavenner. Had you worked for them during the year 1948 ?
Mr. Baumkel. I did work for that firm m 1948
Mr Tavenner. Continuously during that year 1948 ?
Mr.' Baumkel. As far as I can recollect, I worked pretty consist-
ently during 1948 for that firm.
Mr. Tavenner. And during the year 1947 alsoj . ^ .u^
Mr. Baumkel. Well, as far as I can recollect now, I got out of the
Army in 1946, and I don't know if I was physically well enough to
^o back to work-I don't know if it was 1947. I thmk I started in
1948 and I think I took a long time between getting out of the service
and getting back to work as I had lost a lot of weight, felt undernour-
'^^Ml'^TA^NNER.This was the only employment you had then be
tween the time that you left the service and the time that you took
the employment here in Flint ?
Mr. Baumkel. That is right. , . ,
Mr Tavenner. How long were you m the armed services ?
Mr* Baumkel. Approximately 24 months, I think, 2 years.
Mr. Tavenner. What branch of the service were you m i
Mr. Baumkel. Army. .
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have service overseas «
5718 CORIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Baumkfx. I think I had about 18 months overseas' service, ves:
about 18 months. '
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of your application:
for employment at Flint, Mich., bearing date of July 25, 1949, and ask
you to look at the bottom of the second page and state whether or not
the name appearing there is your signature. This is a photostatic
copy of the record.
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Baumkel. Would you repeat your question, please ?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the signature at the bottom of
the second page and state whether or not it is yours?
Mr. Baumkel. I refuse on the previous grounds, primarily the
fifth, to answer the question.
Mr. Tavennek. What is tlie name appearing at the bottom of the
application on the second page ?
Mr. Baumkel. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds.
Mr, Tavenner. Will you hand me the document, please ?
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I move the witness be directed to an-
swer that question. It is entirely reasonable, and the witness has
shown he can read.
Mr. Clardy. I so direct.
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Baumkel. I refuse to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to introduce the document into evidence
and ask that it be marked "Baumkel Exhibit No. 1."
Is it so admitted ?
Mr. Clardy. It will be admitted.
(Photostatic copy of application for employment dated July 25,
1949, above referred to, marked "Baumkel Exhibit No. 1" was received
in evidence.) ^
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Baumkel, did you examine, when the document
was shown to you, the record of employment appearing on this docu-
ment ? If not, will you look at it again ? "
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Baumkel. I refuse to answer the question on the previous
grounds.
Mr. Clardy. I direct that you answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. I do not believe there was a question. I asked him
to look at it.
Mr. Clardy. You asked him to look at it and read it, I understood,
Mr. Baumkel. I think you gentlemen ought to get together.
Mr. Clardy. Never mind, Witness.
Mr. Baumkel. Woidd you repeat the question ?
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I will give you a question : Were you employed by
Angel's Poultry Products Co. at Detroit between 1947 and 1949?
Mr. Baumkel. Angel's Poultry Market in Detroit ?
Mr. TA^^ENNER. Look at the document and see the exact name. What
is the name appearing
Mr. Baumkel. I have never been, to the best of my memory, never
been associated with anything having to do with chickens. I have
never had anything to do with chickens in my life to the best of my
memory.
* Retained In committee files.
COMI>roNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5719
Mr TiAEDT Very well. You have answered the question
Mr Baumkel I didn't answer that question. As far as I know,
^'sni'l^^rT^'sLt^^^^^^^
icompany whose name appears on that document as Angel s Poultry
■■'Mf Ba'S.. You want to know if I was ever employed by
^If Tm-eS.h^ Anfwer the question, please. You certainly know
^'(ltTs"poSS?-Ba„mkel conferred fth Mr. N^blatt.)
Mr. Baumkel. No, I was never employed by Angel s i-oultry
*^ Mr'TA™™RSlay I read the document. Mr. Chairman I desire
to'Sd hitoevrdence fhat part of the document -l^tmg to the record
of employment of Sherwood Baumkel as shown % E:shibit Baum
kel No 1 I am unable to make out tlie month of the Jjar It an
pears to be February 194T to June 5, 1949. That is under date of
'"f "nd addresses of employers," under that title, "Angel's
^^'"liSes pSoSl*:^"' FSe'^stoo^^you to say that you had
nevS beenWoyed by that company, is that correct, that you were
never employed by that company ?
Mr Baumkel. I believe that was my answer. ^ ^ . . ^ ,. ^
Mr. TA^n^NNER. Did you live in the city of Detroit at any time
between 1947 and 1949? ,- -r^, -.
Mr Baumkel. I have never lived m Detroit. -j „^„
Mr Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I desire also to read m evidence
the entry under the title "Your last two previous addresses as ap-
pears on the document, exhibit No. 1.
Mr. Clardt. Proceed. ^ , -, -r^ ^ -^ ± _ i qar +r^ 1 q4.Q •
Mr Tavenner. "1. 19508 Greenfield, Detroit, from 1946 to 1949,
reason formoving, loss of job." Did you make the.,^^ IJf ' f ^*
entry%f a former^Lddress appearing on document exhibit^^^^^^
Mr! Batjmkel. I refuse to answer your question on the previous
^X.'^Tave^ner. Did you make the entry of former employer of
vmirq Ann-el's Poultry at Detroit, Mich. _ .
^ Mr' Ba?mI1 I refuse to answer the question on the previous
^M^DOTLE. Counsel, I didn't understand of what original docu-
"Mr*TMSS.Tts-the application for employment at Flint,
Mich., to the Buick Motor Co. _
tr "^TA^rTirfjlita^^^^^ to show that the applicant's
name\as si^^ned to the document was Sherwood Baumkel this witness
M?. Clardy. What you hold is a photostatic copy of the original
application on file with the company ?
Mr Ta\tenner. That is right, sir.
Now cCyou recall the names of the persons you gave as references
to the Buick Co. when you sought employment there ? .
(At this point Mr. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
5720 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Batjmkel. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I desire to read in evidence the
personal references stated on the witness' application.
Mr. Clardt. Proceed.
_ Mr. Tavenner. "Name, Robert Gould, 19508 Greenfield ; occupa-
tion, salesman ; years known, two." Did you give Robert Gould as a
reference ?
]\Ir. Baumkel. I refuse to answer on the previous grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you known Robert Gould for a period of two
years ?
Mr. Baumkel. This is a violation — I am not going to discuss with
this committee or any committee my associations, who I know, names
of individuals since you are trying to connect me with a conspiracy to
come here to do certain conspiratorial work. I am not going to discuss
any or divulge any names to this committee, and I refuse to answer
on the previous grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Counsel, does that photostat show what city INIr.
Gould
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir, but the same addi-ess appears as the address
of the witness, Sherwood Baumkel, in an earlier part of the applica-
tion. The address that I read out from the document of the witness,
Sherwood Baumkel, was 19508 Greenfield, Detroit ; where it is put in
under the personal references, Detroit is left off, but otherwise it is
the same address.
Mr. Doyle. Didn't I understand this witness testified he never lived
in Detroit ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
I will now read the second personal reference as appears on the
document : "Al Millstein ; address, 7531 McKinstry ; occupation, auto
worker; years known, three." Did you give Al Milstein as a refer-
ence when you sought employment with Buick ?
Mr. Baumkel. I thought I made it clear, I am not going to testify
concerning people I know. I am not going to become another stool
pigeon.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know Al Milstein for a period of three
years prior to the time that you made the application ?
Mr. Baumkel. I refuse to answer the question on the previous
grounds,
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, I desire to recess at this time, but will
you suspend, unless you have about one more question ?
Mr. Ta^tenner. I believe in just a moment or two it would be a
good breathing point.
Mr. Clardy. Make it short because we will have this witness re-
called anyway.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it not a fact, INIr. Baumkel, that j'^ou gave erro-
neous information to the management of Buick regarding your previ-
ous occupation and your previous address in order to mislead them in
material matters involving your employment?
Mr. Baumkel. I refuse to answer on the previous grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it a fact that you gave Angel's Poultry in
Detroit as a place where you had been employed from 1947 to 1949
and your places of residence in Detroit from 1946 to 1949 in order
COMJMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5721
to make the Buick management believe that you lived in a nearby
community ?
Mr. Baumkel. I can't be responsible for the inferences you draw,
sir. You can draw any inferences you want. I didn't say that. You
said that. That is an inference.
Mr. Clardy. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Baumkel. What is the question, not the inference. Wliat is
the question ?
Mr. Clardy. You understand it. Answer it.
Mr. Baumkel. Would you repeat the question, please ?
Mr. Tavenner. Would you read it ?
(The question was read by the reporter as follows :)
Isn't it a fact that you gave Angel's Poultry in Detroit as a place wliere you
had been employed from 1947 to 1949 and your places of residence in Detroit
from 1946 to 1949 in order to make the Buiclc management believe that you lived
in a nearby community?
Mr. Baumkel. I refuse to answer on the previous grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that you, in view of the
witness' statement that he never lived in Detroit and that the face
of this photostat of the original document shows to the contrary, that
the witness ought to be given an opportunity to show whether or not
it is his signature on the bottom of that photostat.
Mr. Tavenner. I have asked him that question 2 or 3 times.
Mr. Doyle. Well, someone
Mr. Tavenner. I will be very glad to hand it to him again.
Mr, Clardy. Let us suspend at this time and give him the noontime
to ponder over this.
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask one more question ?
Mr. Clardy. One more. You remind me of these photographers —
just one more ]3icture. Go ahead.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it true that you concealed the fact that you
lived and worked in the city of New York in order that the Buick
establishment could not check your previous histor^/^ ?
Mr. Baumkel. I decline to answer on the previous grounds.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. We will recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 35 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to recon-
vene at 2 p. m. of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 2: 14 p. m. of the same day, the proceedings were
resumed, Kepresentative Harold H. Velde, Kit Clardy, and Clyde
Doyle being present. )
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session. Will the witness
return to the chair. I think we should apologize for starting late,
but Flint has grown so rapidly and reached such size that your traffic
is quite a problem. A couple of members couldn't make it back. They
almost had to walk.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Baumkel, did you become a member of the
Buick group of the Communist Party at any time while employed by
Buick since 1949?
5722 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
TESTIMONY OF SHERWOOD BAUMKEL, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, HARRY NEWBLATT— Resumed
Mr. Baumkel. That question is part of a pattern — this question, I
feel, is part of a pattern to establish my connection with some con-
spiracy, on the testimony of a General Motors stool pigeon, and I
refuse to answer that
Mr. Clardy. I can't hear you, witness. Your voice or the mike or
something is wrong. Will you speak a little louder ?
Mr. Baumiiel. I feel that question is part of a pattern to implicate
me in some kind of conspiracy on the testimony of a General Motors
stool pigeon, and I refuse to answer on the fifth ainendment.
Mr. Doyle. As I understand, the general meaning of stool pigeon,
it is someone who is accused of telling his enemies the truth about
someone else. We are asking you to tell it about yourself. That
wouldn't make you a stool pigeon.
Mr. Baumkel. I have to use the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend a meeting near the middle of Sep-
tember 1949 at a farm near Columbiaville composed of members of
the youth group of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that on the previous grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned by the Communist Party about
that time; that is, about the middle of September 1949 to work with
and in the organization known as the Labor Youth League ?
Mr. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the previous
grounds.
Mr. Clardy. Speak a little louder, please.
If it would not strain your voice.
Mr, Baumkel. It would strain — I am trying to
Mr. Clardy. All right. Do your best. I don't want you to hurt
yourself.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Baumkel. All these questions, that you are asking me now are
designed to tie me in with some kind of conspiracy, and any kind of
answer I could give or any answer I would give, if it was contradicted
on the basis of the accusations made, it could leave me open to sentence
or prison or jail, to leave me open for persecution and prosecution.
I invoke the private — I have to invoke the privileges of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. And do you invoke them ?
Mr. Baumkel. I do invoke the privileges as previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Baumkel. You are asking me the same questions in different
forms over and over and over.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further — excuse me.
Mr. Baumkel. On the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Any questions, Mr. Velde ?
Mr, Velde. No, I have no questions.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Doyle?
Mr. DoYT^E. I tliink I have no questions, but I think I have to men-
tion again that which I did yesterday. I am sure the committee recog-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5723
nizes the professional obligation or any ethical obligation of any eth-
ical and square-shooting member of the bar to always be willing to
appear before this committee on representation and constitutional
rights of the client, so I again call that to the attention of the folks
heTe because as a member of the bar myself I know that some mem-
bers of the bar sometimes are criticized for appearing before this com-
mittee, and I am sure this committee wants the members of the Mich-
igan bar and the American bar to know we compliment members of
the bar for coming professionally, ethically, and performing their
duty. That doesn't mean going outside their duty, but performing
their dutv. ^, , n t .1 • i
Mr. Clardt. Thank you, Mr. Doyle. That was stated, I think, on
at least two occasions bv the Chair when counsel now representing this
witness was in the hearing room, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it again.
Witness dismissed. Call your next witness.
Mr. TAAT3NNER. Mr. William Van dcr Docs.
Mr. Clardy. Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Van DER Does. I do. .,,•-, .-p 1 • i-c
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated. Counsel will identify himselt.
Mr. Newblatt. Harry Newblatt.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM C. VAN DEE DOES, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, HARRY NEWBLATT
Mr. Van der Does. My name is William C. Van der Does.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Van der Does?
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. I was born in New York City on April 16, 1925.
At a young age I moved to a farm out State and grew up m and near
in a long series of towns in New York State. -j .-^
Mr. Tavenner. You said in and near. Did you start to identity
some place ? -, • c . • xt ^
Mr. Van der Does. I say in and near a long series ot towns m JNew
York State. ^ ^
Mr. Tavenner. Whatpartof New York Stated
Mr. Van der Does. Do you know where Kockland County is?
Mr. Tavenner. No.
Mr. Clardy. The Chair does, so go ahead.
Mr. Van der Does. Will vou tell him where it is ?
Mr. Clardy. No, we will let you answer it, but I happen to know
where it is. , ^ , , ^, , -, .
Mr. Van der Does. I think it is m the— I would say the southeast
portion of the State.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well. . . ^, tt -^ ^
i Mr. Clardy. It isn^t too far from the largest city m the United
States.
Mr. Van DER Does. Great metropolis.
_• Mr. Tavenner. What education did you receive?
P- Mr. Van der Does. My educational background includes going to
a great number of public schools, graduating from high school and
graduating from City College of New York.
5724 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. When did you graduate from City College of New
York?
Mr. Van der Does. In 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. And in what subject did you major?
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. I received a degree in social science.
Mr. Tavenner. Social science ?
Mr. Van der Does. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What time of the year was it that you received
your degree ?
Mr. Van der Does. It was in the early summer, I guess, spring, late
spring. It was in early summer.
Mr. Tavenner. What employment did you have after completion
of your work at City College.
Mr. Van der Does. I worked for Fisher Body. I worked for Fisher
Body.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere?
Mr. Van der Does. In Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. That was the first position which you obtained —
the first employment you obtained after completion of your colle-
giate work ?
Mr. Van der Does. The employment — I don't remember the spe-
cific dates of when I — my employment before Fisher Body was ter-
minated, but the employment that I had may have been concluded
after I graduated from school.
Mr. Tavenner. Do I understand that the employment at Fisher
Body was the first employment you had after completion of your col-
lege work ?
Mr. Van der Does. The first new employment ?
Mr. TA^^NNER. Well, let's start over.
Mr. Van der Does. O. K.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed immediately after the
completion of your collegiate work at City College ?
Mr. Van der Does. As I said, I cannot remember exactly, but I
was employed in a restaurant during the period possibly after I had
graduated from school. I cannot say which one entered first.
]Mr, Tavenner. Where was the restaurant located, in the city of New
York?
Mr. Van der Does. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain employed there after the
completion of your work at City College ?
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. Repeat the question, please.
Mr. Tav-enner. How long did you remain employed at the restau-
rant after the completion of your work at City College, if you were
employed for any period of time ?
Mr. Van der Does. If j^ou have — see, now, I can't remember. I will
tell you frankly.
Mr, Tavenner. Then give us your best judgment and recollection.
Mr. Van der Does. And maybe it was a week, maybe 2 weeks, maybe
it was a day, maybe I quit there before I graduated from college, I
will say that. Now, if you can clarify the situation, I wish you would.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I think you are clarifying it. Did you have
any employment between the time that you finished your work at the
restaurant and the time that you were employed at Fisher Body ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5725
Mr. Van der Does. Not that I can remember.
Mr.TAVENNER. When did you come to Flint?
Mr. Van der Does. In the summer of 1949, early August, I would
5ay, would be most accurate.
Mr. Tavenner. AVliat type of work did you do when you were em-
ployed at Flint ?
Mr. Van der Does. By the Fisher Body ?
Mr. Tavenner. By Fisher Body.
Mr. Van der Does. I am a trimmer now, I spud headliners.
Mr. Tavenner. ^Vliat were you doing when you were first em-
ployed ? What was the nature of your work ?
Mr. Van der Does. I wired headliners.
Mr. Clardy. Do you understand him, counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, I am not familiar
Mr. Clardy. Well, I do, but perhaps you had better have him ex-
plain. He is explaining the particular job that he has or has had, the
series of them in the putting together of the body, the headliners and
the wiring that goes underneath it. Witness, would you explain lor
him, because Mr. Tavenner is a Virginia resident, and I think his first
trip through an assembly line has been since he came here, so would
you help him out a little? . , ,r xt ui ^^ \
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. I think it would be an education for Mr. Taven-
ner to get in and spud a headliner.
Mr. Clardy. It would be for anybody.
Mr. Tavenner. I took my first course in it last night.
Mr. Van der Does. If you got the time, I got the time.
Mr. Clardy. Just give him a brief explanation.
Mr. Van der Does. You see, when you get inside the car and you
look up, there is either cloth or leather lining the underside of the roof.
This cloth or leather is held up by wire struts that hook into the sides
at the tops of the windows. Now, originally when I hired into
Fisher Body I was putting the wire struts into the headliner. Now I
have advanced. I am taking the finished product and tucking it under
what they call retainers or what are called retainers, and that holds
them snugly in position. , ^ , x . i ^i ^
Mr. Clardy. You are giving him the final permanent touch that
results now. , -r j. i.-
Mr. Van der Does. Except for the repairman. I must mention——
Mr. Clardy. You mean when you make a mistake somebody else
must catch up with you ?
Mr. Van DER Does. This is a plug, thank you.
Mr. Clardy. You probably don't make very many mistakes, though,
do you ? -,.•<. T
Mr. Van der Does. Well, I am a good trimmer, if I may say so
without modesty.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. The witness this morning told the committee that he
knewyou in Flint as a member of the Communist Party and that you
were one of the colonizers who moved into the industry in this area,
that is, Communist colonizers. Was he correct in so identifying you ?
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Tavenner. The name of the witness was Herbert Donnelly.
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
5726 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN '
Mr. Van der Does. I decline to answer this question. First I decline
on grounds that this committee does, by design, try to impose physical
violence toward unfriendly witnesses which is clearly in violation of
the guaranty against cruel and unjust punishment of the eighth amend-
ment, and if you wish proof of this, I will attempt to do that.
Mr. Clardy. What amendment are you relying on, witness ?
Mr. Van der Does. The eighth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Is that the sole reliance ?
Mr. Van der Does. No, there is further
Mr. Clardy. All right, state the rest.
]Mr. Van der Does. Grounds. Do you want the proof or do you
want the rest.
Mr. Clardy. I said witness, state the rest of them.
Mr. Van der Does. Okay. I iust wanted to be sure. The other
grounds that I use
Mr. Clardy. I will interrupt you to say you are not being violent
like the other w^itnesses you have seen here be, and I trust you will
not be.
Mr. Van der Does. No, but I have very definite opinions that I feel
of the situation.
Mr. Clardy. You may be sure that the committee has some very
definite opinions, too. The fact that we have had to do some things
that the reluctant witnesses have compelled, is unfortunate, but it is
entirely their fault. Now proceed with the rest.
Mr. Van der Does. Another amendment that I would like to invoke
which is included in the proudest part of our Constitution by men
who were not political peanuts but by men who were of immortal
stature, who drafted a Constitution of inaugural. These are the men
1 would use for the backing. I am proud to invoke the fifth amend-
ment on which much abuse has been heaped in the past period of time.
Mr. Clardy. Does that conclude your statement of reasons ?
Mr. Van der Does. That concludes the statements. If you think •
Mr. Clardy. On any other question you desire to invoke those, you
may do so by merely stating in a few words that you refuse to answer
on the grounds previously adA^anced.
Mr. Van der Does. You mean you accept the fact that I use the
eighth amendment
Mr. Clardy. We permit you to raise any that you want, even though
we think they do not apply. Will you proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
any time while you were employed at Fisher Body ?
Mr. Van der Does. I decline to answer that question
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Tavenner. For the reasons assigned?
Mr. Van der Does. Excuse me.
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. I decline to answer that question, too, on the
grounds that it violates the rights guaranteed to every individual, to
every citizen of the United States, respecting the right of free speech
and assembly, and I also invoke the privileges previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
the time you left New York to obtain employment in Flint? That
was in the year 1949.
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5727
Mr. Van der Does. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
previously stated also.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Mrs. Churchill, Beatrice
Churchill ?
Mr. Van der Does. I can do nothing but decline to answer that
question on grounds previously stated.
Mr. Clardy. Do you so decline?
Mr. Van der Does. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Churchill identified you as having been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party in the area of Flint. Was she telling
the committee the truth or not?
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Doyle. Apparently the witness was acquainted with her,
because he knew the color of her hair.
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Clardy. Ifou see, witness, sometimes in your zeal to overstate
your case you slip a word or two in that betrays you. Now I think it
would be well if you measure your remarks a little more carefully as
the Chair enjoined you a moment ago.
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. Would you please state the previous question ?
Mr. Clardy. Bead it. Miss Keporter.
(The question was read by the reporter as follows:)
Mrs. Churchill identified you as having been a member of the Communist
Party in the area of Flint. Was she telling the committee the truth or not?
Mr. Van der Does. Decline to answer that question. I tliink fur-
ther that all these questions are the same question, and if you are try-
ing to make me use the fifth amendment over and over again, w^ell,
as I said at the beginning of my address, I thought that t]ie Bill of
Rights was a very fine piece of legislative machinery.
Mr. Clardy. Are you invoking the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Van der Does. I invoke the fifth amendment and all the other
grounds previously mentioned.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party i
Mr. Van der Does. I refuse to answer that question on grounds pre-
viously stated. • T, .
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time ? , • j.
Mr. Van der Does. Sir, I don't know whether you are being face-
tious
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Clardy. Then don't be, please, witness. This is not
Mr. Van der Does. But I decline to answer this question. I decline
to answer the question for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Clardy. Very well.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Jacob, sometimes referred
to as Jake, Moscou ?
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. I decline to answer this question also. I feel
that it is an invasion of my rights.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Velde.
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
5728 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Van dkr Does, Sir, excuse me. On the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Van der Does, you gradiuited from City College
of New York in the department of social science with a B. A. or B.S.
degree, which was it?
Mr. Van der Does. B. S., according to my understanding.
Mr. Velde. Havfe you ever used the experience, the teaching, the
education that you have had and the degree that you have been able
to obtain in an application for employment for any position ?
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. The question — let me state it back since there
is — have I ever tried to gain employment through the — will you pleiise
restate the question ?
Mr. Velde. All right. It simply is this : Have you ever used your
education and your degree to apply for employment with that educa-
tion that you have and where the degree was a necessary prerequisite
for that type of employment ?
Mr. Van der Does. In the past I have investigated the possibilities
of using my degree for employment.
Mr. Velde. But have you ever actually made an application for a
position that required that type of background ?
Mr. Van der Does. Well, on being turned down verbally I did not
bother to fill out the blank.
Mr. Velde. Before coming out to Flint, Mich., did you confer with
anyone in New York City regarding your travel to Flint, Mich.?
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. That question is a question which is a leading
one, and I would decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Velde. Actually you were sent as an emissary of the Com-
munist Party here to Flint, Mich., were you not ?
Mr. Van der Does. Would you like to restate the previous ques-
tion?
Mr. Velde. Actually you were sent as an emissary of the Com-
munist Party here to Flint, Mich., from New York City, were you
not?
Mr. Van der Does. I decline to answer the question for reasons
previously stated. Would you like to restate the question ?
Mr. Velde. I think you have declined to answer the question. It
apparently is pretty clear to you.
(At tliis point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Velde. I have no further questions.
Mr. Clardy. Do you have any questions, Mr. Doyle ?
• • ^T°™- ^^- ^^^ der Does, I first want to compliment you on
conimg before this hearing with evidently thorough preparation, a
series of notes and memorandums, anticipating how you would an-
swer the questions. That is very systematic and very orderly, in
the interest of your own presentation. May I ask you, have youbeen
in the hearmg room— yesterdav. were you here ?
(At this point Mr. A^an der" Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Doyle. Were you here yesterday?
Mr. Van der Does. No, I was not here yesterday.
Mr. Doyle. Earlier today, this mornino-?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5729
Mr. Van der Does. I was here this morning, yes. I was com-
manded to be here this morning.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, you were subpenaed ?
Mr. Van der Does. Beg pardon ?
Mr. Doyle. You were subpenaed ?
Mr. Van der Does. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. I noticed that you said, in answer to the question,
something like this, you said, as I said before at the beginning I
think the Bill of Eights is a very fine piece of legislative machinery.
I want to compliment you on that statement, too. As I recall it, the
first amendment or Constitution known as part of the Bill of Rights
was enacted in December 1791. Naturally our forefathers who wrote
those amendments put them there to protect our freedom against any
form of totalitarian government. I have come to recognize from
the evidence, Mr. Van der Does, that the Conununist Party in the
United States advocates a totalitarian form of government. Have
you anything to say on that ?
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. I decline to answer this question also for the
same reason as I declined to answer the others. In other words, for
the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Doyle. Well, of course I don't mean to be arguing with you.
You are perfectly right in following your counsel's advice, whatever
that is, but let me call your attention, because you are a much younger
man than I am, and therefore perhaps are more important in the
history of the Nation than men in my generation, and if you will pay
attention to me just a minute, please — —
Mr. Van der Does. I am paying attention, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Instead of referring to your notes, that is all right.
Mr. Van der Does. I am just shuffling them.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I want to say just a word to you on the basis of
your being a much younger man
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Doyle. And very important to the destiny of your own Nation,
you know the law under which we are operating here as a congres-
sional committee, you are familiar with it, I know. Do you remember
the number of the law under which we are operating here ?
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. I think that that is 601, isn't it ?
Mr. Doyle. I just assumed you were merely familiar with it. I see
I am correct. We are here, therefore, under that law which invites
you to take an opportunity through this committee to help this com-
mittee of your Congress understand what the extent of subversive mis-
conduct or conduct is in our Nation as generated by the American
Communist Party or any other totalitarian subversive influence. I
want to invite you now to help us, your Congress, because we are
United States Congressmen first, I want to invite you, sir, to help
this committee understand the extent to M'hich the Communist Party
or any other subversive group has infiltrated into labor unions or into
the automobile industry where you say you are a good trimmer, and
I am glad you have that estimate of yourself. That is good, but I
am inviting you to help your own congressional group here under-
5730 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES m THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
stand the extent to wliich there are any subversive activities in this
area. In inviting you to do that I am assuming that you appreciate
enough the fact that you have had an opportunity, according to your
own language, of attending a great many public scliools — that Avas
your own language, wasn't it'^ — so you have had the benefit of a
young American of attending great many public schools at the tax-
payers' expense, and I am glad that is our system in this country.
Will you help us, therefore, to understand what you know about the
activities of either the Communist Party in this district or any other
group wliich is seeking to overthrow our constitutional form of gov-
ernment? I am giving you sincerely — I mean it with every word I
have in me — and I know that is the kind of a question that you didn't
have time to prepare a memo as to how you are going to answer it.
Therefore I hope that you will think of it in terms other than pre-
paring to refuse to cooperate.
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Doyle. I am glad my question is making you think apparently.
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Van der Does. May I quote from page 385 of the 14th constitu-
tional Convention of the UAW-CIO which is the highest authority
in our union ?
Mr. Clardy. Witness, we are not seeking anything except an answer
from you out of your own heart and mind. You are being implored
by Congressman Doyle to give grave consideration to supporting your
government and protecting it from the evil influences that would
destroy it. Now, if you do not care to answer, if you do not care to
cooperate, you may say so,
Mr. Van der Does. I would like very much to answer. I would
like very much to read a statement from the 14th Constitutional Con-
vention of the UAW-CIO.
Mr. Clardy. Unfortunately we are not addressing this to a con-
vention. We are asking you, and you only. Now, will you reply in
your own language, or decline, as you wish.
Mr. Van der Does. In other words, you don't want to hear what
is on this page.
Mr. Clardy. In other words, we want you to answer. We do not
want someone else. If you don't care to answer, just say so, and that
will terminate the matter. You will not be pressed beyond that.
Mr. Van der Does. Well, it says in effect that a country which turns
to stool pigeons, creating fear, is in effect losing its own freedom by
these tactics, and I will have to refuse to answer the question on the
grounds previously stated to avoid being a part of this destroying of
our democracy.
Mr. Doyle. Well, of course, young man, I just assumed — I am sorry
my assumption was correct — I just assumed from the printed record
we have about your activities here, that I have in this book, you see,
from our session that that might be your answer. But I did feel pos-
sibly with you at your young age, and this is no laughing matter, sir,
I assure you, nothing facetious about my invitation to you as a young
American. I am very serious. I just hoped that I could say a word
to you which might
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5731
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Doyle. AVhether you exhibit it here or not to make a decision
in your mind to get out of this damnable conspiracy fostered direct
from the Soviet tJnion through the American Communist Party and
get out of it and take your proper place and repay the taxpayers of
the United States for the public education you have had.
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Doyle. One more statement and then I am through. I hope
that you and your associates in the back of the room, those of them
that are there, will get this straight from me. You made this state-
ment, and I agree with you. You said, I have some definite opinion,
and I am mighty glad.
Mr. Van der Does. You wouldn't let me read them, though.
Mr. Doyle. I am mighty glad, Van der Does, that you have defi-
nite opinions, and evidently your opinions and mine sharply disagree
on certain lines. Now don't you forget this, I am telling you this, and
I am telling you as the father of a boy that gave his life that you and
I might have freedom, you see, and I am telling you this : I will fight
for you to have your definite opinions, the same as I expect you to have
the privilege of fighting for my rights to have my definite opinions,
but under American law and under our constitutional form of govern-
ment your opinions have to be within the four corners of the United
States Constitution, That means they have to be legal, and that is
all I am asking you to do.
Mr. Van der Does. I believe that mine are, sir, and if they are not,
then I think that prosecution is the correct procedure rather than
an inquisition.
Mr. Doyle. One statement more, Mr. Chairman. Assuming again
that you are a member of the American Communist Party in this pro-
ceeding, almost a dozen Federal court juries in the United States of
America in the last 3 years have found everyone with the exception
of one defendant guilty, and they are all members of the American
Communist Party, of advocating the use of force and violence to over-
throw our constitutional form of government, and our courts have
held that a violation of law, and therefore I want to tell you, and it
is the last thing I will say to you, I want to tell you
(At this point Mr. Van der Does conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. Doyle. Under the decisions of our courts, therefore, if you are
a member of the American Communist Party, even though you may
not be a lousy underground member thereof, you are a member of
illegal conspiracy.
Mr. Clardy. Any further questions, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tav'enner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardt. Witness excused. Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. John Fitz Moscou.
Mr. Clardy. Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Moscou. I do.
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated. Will you identify yourself, sir ?
Mr. Magee. David S. Magee of Flint, Mich.
5732 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
TESTIMONY OF JACK MOSCOU, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
DAVID S. MAGEE
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Moscou. Jack Moscou.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Moscou. I was born in New York City, Bronx, N. Y.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name, please, your last name?
Mr. Moscou. M-o-s-c-o-u.
Mr. Tavenner. You were born in New York City. Where do you
now reside?
Mr. Moscou. In Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. "VVliat was the date of your birth ?
Mr. Moscou. November 6, 1929.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in Flint ?
Mr. Moscow. Approximately 5 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your occupation ?
Mr. Moscou. I work at Chevrolet, valve forge department.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you obtain your employment ?
Mr. Moscou. In October oi 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. 'VVliere did you reside prior to obtaining your em-
ployment at Chevrolet — I would like to withdraw the question. Did
you have any other employment in Flint prior to your being employed
at Chevrolet?
Mr. Moscou. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was that employment ?
Mr. Moscou. I worked at the Anderson Tank Manufacturing Co.,
I worked at a construction company, and I worked at the Fisher Body
Co.
Mr. Tavenner. How long a period of time did you work in Flint
before being employed by Chevrolet ?
Mr. Moscou. A couple of months.
Mr. Tavenner. A couple of months ?
Mr. Moscou. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. The three jobs that you mentioned then were held
for a period of several months ?
Mr. Moscou. One job I held for 2 days, one job for 3 days, and
Fisher Body for a month or so,
Mr. Tavenner. ^Vlien did your first employment begin in Flint?
Mr. Moscou. In Fisher Body about August of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere did you live prior to coming to Flint in
August 1949?
Mr. Moscou. Well, at a great many places, but the longest place
was Oswego, N. Y. I hitchhiked around the country somewhat, lived
in Buffalo for a little while, but that was all in a period of just a
month or so. I stayed in Oswego, N. Y. for 2 years. m
Mr. Tavenner. Did you come to Flint from Buffalo ? »
Mr. Moscou. Sir? T
Mr. Ta\^nner. Did you come to Flint from Buffalo ?
Mr. Moscou. That was the last place I lived ; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. 'Wliat was your employment in Buffalo?
Mr. Moscou. I couldn't get work there.
Mr. Tavenner. You were there only several months. '\Yliere were
you prior to that?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5733
Mr. Moscou. Oswego, N. Y.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your employment at
Oswego, N. Y. ?
Mr. Moscou. I was going to Oswego State Teachers College.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that the teachers college ?
Mr. Moscou. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you in attendance at that college,
how many years ?
. Mr. Moscou. Two years.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you complete your course there ?
Mr. Moscou. No, sir.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Did you have any other scholastic training besides
that at the teachers college ?
Mr. Moscou. You mean higher than that?
Mr. Tavenner. Of any kind,
Mr. Moscou. I went to public school and high school.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Any other college work ?
Mr. Moscou. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Did I understand you had 1 or was it 2 years in a
teachers college ?
Mr. Moscou. Two years.
Mr. Clardy. That was where ?
Mr. Moscou. Oswego, N. Y.
Mr. Clardy. At Oswego ?
Mr. Moscou. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whethei or not in making your appli-
cation for employment with Chevrolet that you advised them that
you had had 2 years of college training ?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Tavenner. You did not advise them ?
Mr. Moscou. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Why?
Mr. Moscou. Well, when I quit college I went to Buffalo, N. Y., to
look for work, and I filled out a great many applications at local
Elants there, and I couldn't get work despite the fact that they were
iring, and the personnel manager told me that he wouldn't liire me
because he figured I was going back to college in 3 or 4 weeks or a
month and I would just be drawing 3 or 4 pay collections. I said
well let me have another application blank and I will fill that. He said
you should have done that in the first place so when I came out here
I took his advice and did that in the first place.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any reason for leaving it out ?
Mr. Moscou. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. It has been testified here by Mr. Herbert Donnelly,
that you were one of the group which has been described as colonizers
of the Communist Party who moved in here to revive the Communist
Party in Flint and to furnish the leadership to the masses. Were
you a member of that group ?
Mr. Moscou. I would like to say first that Mr. Doyle has stated
that a stoolpigeon is supposed to tell the truth. A stoolpigeon is
supposed to lie. That is my first statement, and then I would like
to consult counsel for a minute.
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
5734 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. ISfoscou. Sir, I have worked at many places, I have been a farm-
hand, I have been a shipping clerk, I have traveled around the south-
ern part of the country, and I came here of my own volition.
Mr. Clardy. That doesn't answer the question. Answer it.
Mr. JVIoscou. Insofar as I can say, sir, I came here at no one's request.
Mr. Clakdy. I want to correct something you said a moment ago.
It isn't the stoolpigeon that lies. It's the Communist Party line that
any lie that will further the cause of the Communist Party is justifi-
able. You are absolutely mistaken in your identity of those who make
lying a policy.
Kow, your next question, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Moscou. Assume, sir, that I am free to
Mr. Clardy. Next question.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party before
you came to Flint ?
Mr. Moscou. This is an improper question dealing with associations,
covering a great many facets of my life, and I will refuse to answer it.
I will not help this committee to violate the Constitution of the United
States of America. I use the fifth amendment of the United States.
Mr. Tavenner. You said that you were not sent here. Did you con-
fer with any functionary of the Communist Party prior to your
arrival in Flint regarding what your future activities should be in
Flint?
Mr. Moscou. I testified, sir, that I came here of my own volition,
after having moved around a great deal of this country; my associ-
ations, alleged or otherwise, people I may have talked to or not have
talked to are not the concern of this committee nor any investigating
committee, and I shall refuse to answer that question after pointing
out it is an unconstitutional question and standing on the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. A few moments ago I asked Mr. Bill Van der Does
if he was acquainted with you. He refused to answer on the ground
that to do so might tend to incriminate him. Are you aware of any
reason why he should have felt that to answer that question truthfully
might tend to incriminate him ?
Mr. Moscou. Sir, after studying the records of the Radulovich case,
I don't think anybody ought to recognize their own father before this
committee.
Mr. Ta\T!;nner. Will you answer the question, please ?
Mr. Moscou. I thought I did.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, you did not. You know you did not. You
know you are being deliberately impertinent. Now answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Moscou. I shall have to reluctantly invoke the fifth amendment
to answering that question.
Mr. Doyle. Did you say reluctantly ?
Mr. Moscou. That is right, sir ; I said reluctant.
Mr. Doyle. You mean you wish you didn't have to ?
Mr. Moscou. I wish, sir that the real meaning of the fifth amend-
ment wore known to the American ])ublic and that it was not confused
in their minds by hypocritical Congressmen.
Mr. Doyle. By what?
Mr. MoscuE. By hypocritical Congressmen.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5735
Mr. DorLE. That o:ives me your estimate of the United States
Confess, I can see that.
Mr. Moscou. No, sir; that gives you my estimate of the hypo-
critical Congressmen.
Mr. Doyle. Of what Congressmen ?
Mr. Moscou. Look it up in the record.
Mr. Doyle. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Clardy. I couldn't hear that last.
Mr. Moscou. I said you can ask the record.
Mr. Doyle. May I have the record — I want to see how smart this
young man is trying to be, please. Give me what he said.
( The answer was read by the reporter as folio ws : )
I wish, sir, that the real meaning of the fifth amendment were known to the
American public and that it was not confused in their minds by hypocritical
Congressmen.
Mr. Doyle. Hypocritical.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time you sought employment with Chev-
rolet, did you advise the company that in the event of emergency
to notify Bill Van der Does ?
Mr. Moscou. You say I did ?
Mr. Tavenner. Did you?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. My counsel has advised me that I should invoke
the fifth amendment in answering this question.
Mr. Clardy. Are you doing so ?
Mr. JNIoscou. Yes, sir; I am following my counsel's advice.
Mr. Clardy. You must say so if you expect to get the protection
of it.
Mr. Moscou. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of an application
for employment at Chevrolet bearing date
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Tavenner. Of October 5, 1949. Will you examine it, please,
and state whether or not the signature on the second page at the bot-
tom is your signature ?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. Sir, I am not sure that you really want to know the
answer because I feel if I start to
Mr. Clardy. Tliat is enough, Witness. Desist. Now answer the
question. You know the smirking attitude you have adopted, the
supercilious air that you have put on your face and your whole
body, in effect, and the insulting language you use is not serving your
purpose at all. You may think so, but you are gravely mistaken.
The American public will not be taken in and deceived by that sort
of thing. Now confine yourself to be temperate and honest and fair
in your answers. Do not misstate what you were doing for the thing
you seem to think it is, something smart. Now proceed to answer
the question.
Mr. Moscou. I can only say that when I wish to remain silent, you
insist that I talk, and when I wish to talk, you insist that I remain
silent.
Mr. Clardy. That is enough of that, Witness, answer the question.
5736 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Moscou. I shall refuse to answer the question quoting the fifth
amendment and also use the first amendment by guaranteeing the
right of privilege as it covers the subject.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to introduce the document into evidence
and ask that it be marked "Moscou exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Clardy. It will be received.
(Photostat of application above referred to marked "Moscou ex-
hibit No. 1" was received in evidence.) ^
Mr. Tavenner. Will 30U examine on the front page of the docu-
ment exhibit No. 1, the place where the names of the persons are
stated who are to be notified in the event of an emergency. Will you
read the name of the first individual appearing there ?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. This is your document, sir. I suggest you read it.
Mr. Tavenner. All right.
Mr. Clardy. I direct you to read it. Just a moment. I direct you
to read it, sir.
Mr. Moscou. Upon advice of my counsel I shall then read it. The
names to be notified in emergency are Bill Van der Does and Mr. S.
Moscou.
Mr. Clardy. The Bill Van der Does is the witness who just pre-
ceded you on the stand.
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. I shall refuse to answer that question under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Do you know any other Bill Van der Does ?
Mr. Moscou. Sir, who I know or who I may not Ivuow is my busi-
ness. It is not the function of a congressional committee to question
me about my associations. I shall again have to refuse to answer this
question as irrelevant and in violation of my constitutional rights un-
der the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer it.
Mr. Moscou. I have stated my reasons for not answering the ques-
tion under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Bill Van der Does prior
to your coming to Flint ?
Mr. Moscou. I did not request — I don't recall that I requested not
to be photographed, and I see the photographer looking at me, so I
will at this time request it.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed with your answers.
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. I did not have an answer to my request, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed with the answer to the question that has been
propounded to you.
Mr. Doyle. He has only looked at you. He hasn't taken your pic-
ture yet.
Mr. Clardy. I can't figure for the life of me why he'd want it.
^fr. Moscou. He just took it. I tell you I wouldn't mind, but I am
not photogenic.
INIr. Clardy. Go ahead.
Mr. Moscou. As many different ways as you can try to associate
me with Bill Van der Does I can still refuse to answer under the fifth
amendment.
* Retained in committee flies.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5737
Mr. Clardy. Do you think tliat knowiii<r him can incriminate you?
Mr. Moscou. I repeat, after havin<^ read the Eadulovich case, in
the political climate of this country today, your own father could
Mr. Clardy. Witness
Mr. Moscou. I shall refuse to answer this unconstitutional question
which is invasion of my privacy under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend a meeting in
September of 1949 of the youth section of the Communist Party held
on a farm near Columbiaville, Mich.?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. I shall have to refuse to answer that question, sir,
citing the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned by the Communist Party to
become active in an organization known as Young Progressives?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. I shall have to refuse to answer that question under
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of a group of the C(.mmunist
Party composed exclusively of members employed at Chevrolet?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. These questions, sir, are not designed to gatlior in any
information but to further a witch-hunting congressional committee
and I shall rely upon the Constitution of the United States of America
and refuse to answer that question, claiming the privileges of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Moscou. I won't bother with any kind of speech, I will just
refuse to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Thank you.
Mr. Clardy. Read that to me.
Mr. Moscou. You are quite welcome. Wait a moment.
Mr. Clardy. Read that. Miss Keporter.
(The answer was read by the reporter as follows:)
I won't bother with any kind of speech, I will just refuse to answer that under
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. I am indeed glad to get the public acknowledgment
that you have been making speeches.
Mr, Moscou. No more so than you, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Clardy. Any questions, Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Velde. Yes, I just have one question. This impertinent man
here has remarked several times about the dangerous political climate
in this country, and named Congressmen and I presume he was refer-
ring to us among others, as being hypocritical and one thing and an-
other. I just want to ask you this, young man: Would be rather be
under the domination of Soviet Russia in that political climate at the
present time than you would be living here in the United States of
America ?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. Sir, the question is definitely irrelevant and I will
Mr. Clardy. The Chair will rule on the relevancy of the question.
You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moscou. May I ask. Congressman Clardy
5738 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. CL.viiDY. No, you may not ask me anything, sir. You may
answer the question.
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr, Magee.)
Mr. ]Moscou. I don't care to answer that question, sir.
Mr. CLAitDY. Is that the way you w^ant the record to stand
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Clakdy. That you just don't care to express your feelings about
your country ?
Mr, Moscou. I would be glad to express my feelings if I would be
assured by this committee that it would not constitute a waiver of mv
constitutional rights and open the door to further questioning which
would tend to degrade me.
Mr. Clardy. This committee has said repeatedly we will, under no
circumstance, make deals with witnesses, and particularly not with
witnesses who have behaved as you have. Now, if you do not care to
let the people who may be reading this record, observing you or hear-
ing your voice now, know that you are a good patriotic American,
you need not say so.
Mr. Moscou. Sir, I consider myself to be a good and patriotic
American. I think that the question is prejudicial and unfairly
worded and insincere, and in view of the fact
Mr, Velde, No, I will assure you it is a very sincere question, J
would like to know whether you would rather live under the domina-
tion of the red flag in Soviet Eussia, Communist China or any of the
other satellite countries of Soviet Russia than you w^ould live in the
United States of America,
Mr, Moscou, Sir, that wasn't a question. That was a stump speech.
In view of the fact that this committee announced that it was cominjr
to town approximately 6 months ago to investigate the dangeroll^
Communist conspiracy I would like to ask that that question be post-
poned for 1 week, since we already waited 6 months, and that you
arrange a public debate in which we wnll discuss the issues.
Mr, Velde. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that is not an answer to my
question.
Mr, Clardy, Of course it isn't. Are you declining to answer?
Mr, Moscou, I have stated that I will refuse to answer that question
as constituted — as composed, under the privilege granted to me through
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clu\rdy. Then as I take it, you think you would be incriminat-
ing yourself to confess that you w'ould prefer to live in the United
States of America ?
]\Ir. Moscou. No, sir, I feel that this committee would then open
the door to asking other questions which they do not have the right
to ask me, but that I would waive my rights,
Mr. Clardy, Proceed,
Mr. Velde, Mr, Chairman, I have no further questions except I
%vould like to make this remark that I feel certain that counsel for
this witness has not been responsible for any of the remarks, the nasty
remarks that he has made, and that he is in every way following the
ethics of the legal profession in giving advice as he has.
Mr._ Clardy. I have known him for quite a while. He is a good
American citizen and a very good friend of mine, and I am sure that
he will at no time advise any client of his to perform as this gentleman
has. Do you have any questions, Mr. Doyle.
COAIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5739
Mr. Doyle. Yes, just 1 or 2. When you made the application to
the Chevrolet Co. for employment, did you live at 1809 Maryland
Avenue, Flint ?
Mr, Mosoou. Are you asking me or tell ing me ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Moscou. I shall refuse to answer the question under the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Doyle. Did the Bill Van der Does live at 1809 Maryland Ave-
nue, Flint, Mich., at the time you signed an application for employ-
ment with Che vrol et ?
Mr. Moscou. Sir, this committee claims to be making investigation.
I don't know Avhat you are investigating if you think you already
know it.
]Mr. Clardy. Answer the question.
Mr. DoY-LE. Thank you for telling me that it was the fact that Bill
hved there. That is the sum total of your answer.
Mr. Moscou. I will thank you for not taking away from me my
constitutional rights of privacy and I will refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. DoYT.E. I assure you there is nothing hypocritical about my
desire to uncover any person tliat is a member of the Communist con-
spiracy in this country. Here is your signature on this photostat of
this original a]:>]3lication for employment. Will you please sign your
name as Jack Moscou, not as Jacob? This is signed as Jack. Just
sign the name Jack so I can compare the signatures.
Mr. Moscou. You went through this showboat antic, sir, several
days ago. You were given an answer th.at time by a witness and I
was here and heard the answer and I will tell you, no, sir, I will not
sign the paper for your benefit.
Mr. DoY'LE. AVe'll, I noticed you in the room a few days again, being
very attentive, and to what was going on, and that is your privilege.
Now I will ask you if it isn't a fact that on this application for Chevro-
let employment, which you signed as indicated, in your handwriting
there appears not only your name, but the name of Bill Van der Does
as a resident at 1809 Maryland Avenue, Flint, Mich. Will you look
at it please? That so appears, doesn't it, over your signature?
(At this point INIr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. I have not stated, sir, that that is my signature, and
I shall refuse to answer that question under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, look at it and see if it is similar to your sig-
nature at least.
Mr. Moscou. Sir, they have been looking at a lot of photographs in
Washington latelj^causing quite some confusion.
Mr. Doyt^e. Yes, that is a very smart answer on your part.
Mr. ^Moscou. The question is not whether it is smart but whether
it is correct.
Mr. DoTLE. That is right, you are a very brilliant boy. Will you
look at that signature and state whether that is at least similar to your
signature ?
]Mr. Moscou. I have stated I will not answer that question and
rely on the fifth amendment.
Mr.DoYLE. Will you look at that?
Mr. Moscou. I have looked at it.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, it is similar to your signature, isn't it?
5740 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Moscou. I have already refused to answer that question, sir,
Mr. Doyle. Now, I notice on the face of this photostat of your
original application for employment, there is a notation here on the
bottom thereof in typewriting^. Will you look at it so you make sure
that I am reading it correctly. Now you are looking at it, it says
"S. S. card retained for name change from Jack S. Moscou to Jacob
S. Moscou," so you also go by the name of Jacob S. Moscou, don't you?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Doyle. You are one and the same person with Jack, the way
you signed it, aren't you ?
Mr, Moscou. My name, sir, as recorded on my birth certificate is
Jacob Moscou.
Mr. Tavenner. You wrote down on your application here, accord-
ing to the face of it, Jack. Why didn't you write your full name when
you first wrote it down ?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. It has not been established, sir, that that is my appli-
cation.
Mr. Tavenner. No, but you know whether or not it is your appli-
cation.
Mr. Moscou. You seem to know better than I do.
Mr. Doyle, You are a very smart boy. Was Bill Van der Does
related to you in any way when you placed his name down here as a
person to be notified by your employer in case of accident to you ? Was
he any relative of yours ?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. I have not stated, sir, that I placed anybody's name
on any application, and tliat, I think, covers the question. And may
I say, sir, if you will permit
Mr. Tavenner. It is not even a clever evasion of my question.
Mr. Moscou. It wasn't a clever question, it didn't need a clever
evasion.
Mr. Doyle. Well, you are a very smart boy. I will ask you who,
at the time you made this application, Mr. S. Moscou was who lived,
according to the face of this photostat, at 1240 Sherman Avenue,
Bronx, New York. Wlio was he ?
Look at it. You see it there to refresh your memory.
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Doyle. Was he related to you, if so, how ?
Mr. Moscou. Sir, I again repeat, in view of the fact that you are
trying to trick me, I have not stated that this is my application. I
do happen, to have, however, a father who has that name.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I am glad you are at least not ashamed to admit
that it was your father's name that you wrote on the application.
Mr. Moscou. Is that the best you can do ?
Mr. Clardy. Anything further, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, just this, for the benefit of the young man : Did
you serve in the military force of the United States ?
Mr. Moscou. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. Doyle. Wliy?
Mr. Moscou. I have never been called.
Mr. Doyle. Not been called ?
Mr. Moscou. No, sir.
Mr. D0Y1.E. How old are you ?
Mr. Moscou. 24.
COMJMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5741
Mr. Doyle. Have you been examined for service in the Military
Establishment ?
Mr. Moscou. No, sir ; I have not.
Mr. Doyle. Have you registered ?
Mr. INIoscou. Yes, sir ; I have registered.
Mr. Doyle. When ? Do you have a copy of your registration card
with you ?
(At this point Mr. IVIoscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. I registered, sir, on my 18tli birthday, and I have the
copy here. I will look it up.
Mr, Doyle. Well, that's good. Maybe that will help identify you
more.
Mr. Clardy. Please, no demonstrations of either approval or disap-
proval. This is a committee of your Congress, and we must have
silence and decorum.
Mr. Moscou. How about some honest questions ?
Mr. Tavenner. May I see your card, please ?
Mr. Doyle. This card shows the name of Jacob S. Moscou, 1240
Sherman Avenue, Bronx, New York, November 6, 1928, as the date
of birth, and on the signature place of the card it is signed Jack S.
Moscou. Is that your signature or your registration card? To re-
fresh your memory whether or not you signed it, I ask you if that is
your signature?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Doyle. Let me see it just a minute more. Thank you.
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Doyle. To refresh
Mr. Moscou. Yes, sir, that is my signature on the registration card.
Mr. Doyle. Now, I will ask you to compare your signature on your
registration card with a signature of Jack Moscou on the application
for employment for Chevrolet employment or agency and ask you
if there is any similarity which you recognize between the two.
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee. )
Mr. Moscou. This whole thing is irrelevant, sir. I have no inten-
tion of comparing signature. I am not a handwriting expert, and I
shall refuse to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. I assure you it is not irrelevant for the United States
Congress to find out who the leaders of the Communist Party are in
the United States.
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee. )
Mr. Doyle. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am calling to your attention the
registration card which this witness admitted he says was his signa-
ture on the face thereof in the place provided, and that signatures
must be signed there, and the signature on the exhibit 1 in the matter
of this young man in the witness chair, application for employment
to Chevrolet, and I want the record to show that my own opinion is,
and I have practiced law some 30 years before I went to Congress 8
years ago, it is one and the same man who signed both papers.
Mr. Clardy. It appears so to the Chair, the only difference being,
as I see it, is that in one instance he inserts a middle initial of "S"
and the other he does not. But the formation of the letters and the
general appearance would seem to me to be the same.
Mr. Doyle. I call your attention further, however, for the record,
as far as I did of the witness, while he apparently registered as Jack
S. Moscou on the registration certificate of the selective-service system,
5742 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
his application for employment with Chevrolet Co. which he first
signed as Jack S. Moscoii was clianged apparently by his authority and
direction, according to the tyjiewritten niemorandnm ther(\)n, from
Jack S. Moscue, which is the way he registered for selective service,
to Jacob S. Moscue ; whatever his reason was, of course, doesn't appear.
But it could be different persons, of course. I will ask you, Mr. Mos-
cou, whether or not you have notified your selective service di-aft
board of your change of residence?
Mr. Moscou. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. Doyle. When?
Mr. Moscou. Most recently about a week ago. They sent me a hotter
about my status, my marital condition, et cetera.
Mr. DoYT.E. And your draft board is which draft board ? "WTiere
is the draft board located to which you sent that note?
Mr. Moscou. Well, I registered in Oswego, N. Y., but I was told
to list my parents' address, so the draft board is registered in the
Bronx, New York City.
Mr. Doyle. Your selective service registration file — does your name
appear there as Jacob S. Moscou any place, the way you registered for
employment ?
(At this point Mr. Moscou conferred with ]\Ir. Ma gee.)
Mr. Moscou. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Doyle. If not, why not?
Mr. Moscou. Well, usually I will put down the name Jack because
that is what I have been called all my life. If somebody says full name
or birth certificate is produced I have to change it to Jacob, but if I
am not thinking about it I always put down Jack first.
Mr. Doyle. Is your true and correct name Jack or Jacob f
Mr. Moscou. I have stated that my true and correct name is Jacob.
Mr. Doyle. Why didn't you register that way with the selective
service draft board?
Mr. Moscou. I have never been called Jacob since I was born.
Everybody called me Jack, and I have always used that name.
Mr. DoYiJE. I just want to say one word to you. young man, I hope
the time will come before you are very much older where you, if you
are in the Communist Party — I will put it that way — that you will
get out of it and apply your natural ability, which you certainly have,
in the interest of your own great Nation which jjave you birth, and
I ho]^e that when you get in the Armed Forces, if you do, pray (rod
you will never have to or any other American lad to serve where they
might be killed, but if you ever do get in the Armed Forces of the
ITnited States where other boys have served and given their lives
already, that you might get a free education, I hope that if there is
any connection between you and the Communist Party in America
that you will have dissolved it long before you get in the Armed
Forces. T just want to say this one thing to you.
(At this ]->oint Mr. Moscou conferred with Mr. Magee.~)
Mr. Doyle. Just one statement, Mr. Chairman. I hardly know how
to word it in the presence of this very brilliant boy, except may I say
this to you, I hope the time will come before too long when you look
at yom-solf pretty clearly, analyze yourself instead of considering your
United States Congress a bunch of hyprocrites, and that is the lan-
guage you applied
Mr. ISIoscou. I did not say that, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5743
Mr. Doyle. You applied it at least to the men before you here today
representing
Mr. Moscou. Sir, the three people on the committee are not the
United States Congress in the sense of all its Members.
Mr. Dqyle. Then you do restrict, I hope, your designation as hypro-
crites to we three, is that correct ?
Mr. Moscou, No, sir, I do not. I include a lot more Congressmen,
but I leave quite a few out.
Mr. Doyle. How many more members of the United States Congress
do you designate as hypocrites ?
Mr. Moscou. I didn't come prepared to answer any such irrelevant
statements.
Mr. Doyle. You volunteered the statement of your own volition that
some of us were hypocrites.
Mr. Moscou. That has no question with having volunteered one
statement volunteering another one.
Mr. DoYT.E. I think it opens the subject matter very much if that is
your attitude toward the United States Congress, if there are a lot of
us there as hypocrites, I think the quicker the American public knew
your opinion, the better.
Mr. Moscou. Sir, this committee came to town and said any person
who is innocent of any wrongdoing and called before this committee
will have a chance to clear themselves. I consider myself free of any
wrongdoing, prejudged by this committee, placed in an unfortunate
position, in a position where I have to defend the Constitution from
unconstitutional attacks by Congressmen.
Mr. Doyle. May I say now, as long as you have volunteered again
the information that this committe offered opportunity to come before
it and clear themselves, I am offering you now again an opportunity
to clearly state and honestly, clear yourself of the information we have
that you are right now an active member of the Communist Party.
Now that is the information we have, if we are wrong, I am giving
you a chance to clear it. That is what you said we announced we would
do. I am doing it right now again. Clear yourself, are you or are
you not ?
(At this point Mr. ISfoscou conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Moscou. Sir, I have never advocated the forceful or violent
overthrow of the United States Government in any way, shape or form.
However, when you try to link up my personal and private beliefs
with organizations, I have to rely on my constitutional privileges by
saying that the committee is not authorized to do so and that — well, I
will just say that I will stop with the fifth amendment. I will use the
fifth amendment not to answer that question. However, if I can put
in R few words and I would not be belligerent when I say them
Mr. Clardy. You will not be permitted to put in any more words.
You have had too many now.
Mr. Moscou. I know that so the committee thinks.
]\[r. Clardy. Do you liave any more questions, Mr. Doyle. The wit-
ness is dismissed. We will take a 5-minute recess.
("^^liereupon, at 8 : 45 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 8 :50 p.m.)
("VMiereupon, at ?» : 57 p. m., the hearing was reconvened.)
Mr. Clahdy. The committee will be in session. Call your next wit-
ness.
5744 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. James A. Coleman, will you come forward, please.
Mr. Clardy. Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
^ truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Coleman. I do.
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated. Counsel, again will you'identify
yourself?
Mr. Newblatt. Harry Newblatt.
Mr. Clardy. Before you start, Mr. Tavenner, I think I had better
make a brief announcement : The staff and members of the committee^
with the exception of myself, must make a plane back to Washington.
I am going back by another method, and accordingly it will be neces-
sary to adjourn at 4 : 30. This will undoubtedly be the last witness for
today. I would ask that all the other witnesses remain here at 4 : 30
so I may make the announcement as to what will be done with respect to
them. In the meantime, any of those who have not thus far been
called who desire to sign the voucher form will come up to the clerk's
form on my right here as quietly as you can during the next half hour
and dispose of that because the clerk has to get out of town, too.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Coleman. May I say that the committee ask the photographers
not to take any pictures while I am talking or while I am being ques-
tioned.
Mr. Clardy. Very well, we will have no more pictures. Start with
the testimony.
Mr. Tavenner. "VVIiat is your name, please, sir ?
TESTIMONY OF JAMES A. COLEMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, HARRY NEWBLATT
Mr. Coleman. My name is James Coleman.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have a middle initial ?
Mr. Coleman. "A," standing for Andrew.
Mr. Tavenner. James A. Coleman.
Mr. Coleman. Right.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Coleman?
Mr. Coleman. I was born in Philadelphia, Pa. in 1924, November 5.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cation training has been ?
Mr. Coleman. I would like to make a request in regard to that
question or ask a question of procedure. You know, my union and
my friends have advised me to answer all these questions, reply as
correctly as I possibly can. My attorney has advised me to use the
fifth amendment in the correct way. I am just a layman. I have
never been in anything like this before, and to comply with all this it's
going to be quite a task for me, so I would like to ask this committee,
which is composed of lawyers and experienced politicians, and mem-
bers with this experience are aware, I know, that the questions on
employment, schooling, and other things like that, are leading ques-
tions and have the purpose and intent of proving my participation in a
nonexisting conspiracy. Therefore, my answers to your questions
cannot and will not be simple yes and no answers. The questions
themselves are not simple and innocent or as clean-cut as you would
give the people to believe they are.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5745
Mr. Clardy. Witness, may I interrupt you. We liave no desire of
being harsh or anything else, but time is of the essence at the moment,
and
Mr. Coleman. It is, and this is very brief.
Mr. Clardy. If you will answer the question or decline, as you wish.
This has to do with your educational background. Now if you can
state it sim]jly, I wish you would. *
Mr. Doyle. Evidently, Mr. Chairman, the witness is reading a pre-
pared statement which is understandable.
Mr. Coleman. This isn't a prepared statement, it is a question of
procedure and it is prepared from the point of view that I had to
give consideration to it, certainly.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr. Coleman. My answers in order to be correct will have to deal
with the questions as they really are and not as you may think I should
answer them. They have to be my answers although they have to be
your questions, and I would like to ask your indulgence when I give
my reply to these questions to not be interrupted.
]Mr. Tavenner. Let us see if we can get together on our questions
and your answers.
Mr. Coleman. The question that you asked about my education.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Coleman. I regard that as a leading question in the view of
what has taken place here in this committee, I regard it as a leading
question because it has been the purpose of this committee to con-
demn anyone who has had an education above a high school level as
being an intellectual laborer, and being an intellectual laborer seems
to put you in the classification of a Communist, and I would prefer not
to bring up any kind of connection
Mr. Clardy. Are you declining to answer the question, witness?
Mr. Coleman. And I would like to state my
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Coleman. I am declining to
Mr. Doyle. Witness, you were never more wrong in your life in that
statement.
Mr. Coleman. I was never more accurate.
Mr. Doyle. You were very inaccurate, and you are doing organized
labor and the working people of the country a disservice when you
make that declaration, and I can't let it pass. Someone has been fill-
ing you with a lot of baloney.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, will you answer the question now, as I am
afraid you are going to take the fifth amendment
(At this point Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Newblatt.)
Mr. ClxVRdy. And let's get it over with. Are you listening to me ?
Mr. Coleman. No, I am afraid I didn't hear you.
Mr. Clardy. I was afraid not. Will you answer the question or
decline as you wish.
Mr. Coleman. I would like to decline and state my reasons why.
Mr. Clardy. Is it on the ground of the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Coleman. Well, I would like to state why I decline.
Mr. Clardy. We don't care to entertain a lengthy statement, but if
you have a brief succinct statement of your point
Mr. Coleman. Well, my reasons for declining will have to be
Mr. Clardy. You may state them briefly.
5746 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. CoLEMAX. My reasons for declining may not be as brief as you
would like them to be, because as 1 said before, the questions that are
asked are not as
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, I discharge the witness from the chair
at this point with directions to return at the next hearing. Call the
next witness. You are not relieved from your subpena.
Mr. Tamcnnner.* Murray Borod.
Mr. Clardy. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solennily
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Borod. I do.
Mr. Ci^vRDY. Be seated. Mr. Magee, will you identify yourself.
Mr. Magee. David S. Magee.
Mr. BoROD. Mr. Chairman, I would like to request a ruling on
the motion that my attorney presented to this committee. .
Mr. Clardy. The motion has been considered and denied.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
TESTIMONY OF MUERAY BOROD, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
DAVID S. MAGEE
Mr. Borod. My name is Murray Borod.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Borod?
Mr. Borod. I was born in New York City on February 13 of 1915.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. BoROD. I now reside at 815 East Seventh Street in Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?
Mr. BoROD. My occupation is auto worker.
Mr. Tavenner. By what company are you employed ?
Mr. BoROD. I am employed at the present time, and I answer this
question with no intent to waive my rights to answer any future ques-
tion regarding my employment at the Chevrolet Motor Co.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so employed ?
( At this point Mr. Borod conferred with Mr. Magee. )
Mr. Borod. I have been advised by counsel that by answering
this question I am not waiving any further rights, so I reply that
I have been employed at the Chevrolet Motor Co. since August of
1949.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the nature of your employment — what
was the nature of your employment when you first accepted it in
August 1949.
(At this point ISIr. Borod conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Borod. I have been advised by counsel that I may answer
this question. I was employed in the pressed metal division of the
Chevrolet Motor Co. as a press operator.
INIr. Tavenner. Had you had experience in that type of work in
auto manufacturing prior to your acceptance of the position with
the Chevrolet Motor Co. in Flint ?
Mr. BoROD. Mr. Tavenner, I want to make it known now that I
am not going to become a part of the plan of this committee to destroy
the organized labor movement and the democratic institutions of
our country.
Mr. Tavenner. We hope we are helping the organized labor
movement, Mr. Witness.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 6747
Mr. BoROD. Your hopes are far from the tiaith, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Let us not have argument.
Mr. Tavenner. Answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. May I just have the record at this point show aj^ain
that this man was never more wrong in his life when he makes tlie
declaration that this committee has a plan to destroy the labor unions.
That is false, and I believe it is deliberately false.
Mr. BoROD. Mr. Doyle
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please ?
Mr. BoKOD. I am going to answer Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Clardy. No; you are not answering anybody but Mr. Taven-
aer's question.
Mr. BoROD. You don't want to hear my views ?
Mr. Clardy. Witness, Mr. Doyle, as a committee member, has the
right to make a statement after you made the one that you did, which
ivas probably false, and I am glad he made it,
Mr. BoROD. Mr. Clardy, you are no friend of labor. You are an
nemy of labor, Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Will you step up beside the witftess and restrain him
f it becomes necessary. Now, witness, please restrain yourself. We
ion't want a show here. Now proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. TxWENNER. Will you answer the question, please?
Mr. BoROD, Would you please repeat the question ?
Mr. Tavenner. The question was whether or not you had had ex-
perience in the line of work in which you were employed in August
1949 prior to your employment there with the Chevrolet plant.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, if you think you can restrain yourself, I will
lave the officers retreat to the door there. How about it ?
Mr. BoROD. Mr. Clardy, I did not ask to come before this committee.
Mr. Clardy. I know that.
Mr. BoROD. I was subpenaed just the way you subpenaed Mr. Harry
Truman.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, it is too bad he didn't appear, but now will you
mswer my question ?
Mr. Borod. I don't blame him for not appearing. I did not request
come here, and I am not
Mr. Clardy. Will you restrain yourself and answer the question ?
Mr. Borod. I am quite restrained, sir,
Mr. Clardy. And answer the question peacefully.
Mr. BoROD. I am quite restrained.
Mr. Clardy. All right. You may retire, officers ; if he shows any
igns I will call you back again. Now proceed. Mr. Tavenner.
Mr, Tavenner. The question is whether or not prior to your em-
)loyment with Chevrolet in August 1949 you had experience in auto-
notive work.
(At this point Mr. Borod conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. Borod. I decline to answer that question because this committee
vants to make me a part of their plan to destroy the organized labor
novement and the democratic institutions of this country through
ts creating hysteria, fear, intimidation of people, where people will
)e afraid to fight for their economic necessities, for higher wages,
horter hours
•5748 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. "Witness, that will be about enough. Now what are
your legal grounds for refusing to answer ?
Mr. BoROD. I refuse to answer this question on the following legal
grounds : It is my firm belief that the very fact of the existence of
this committee is a violation of the first amendment of the Constitu-
tion of the United States, which says that Congress shall make no laws
respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exer-
cise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or of
the right of the people peacefully to assemble and to petition the
•Government for redress of grievances. This committee was set up
for the purpose of
Mr. Clardy. That will be enough on that. You have stated the first
amendment. Now
Mr. BoROD. Sir, I am not through with the first amendment.
Mr. Clardy. You are through with the first amendment.
Mr. BoROD. I am not through, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Witness — officers, step up again. If we have to use
force, we will do so, to keep you w ithin bounds.
(At this point Mr. Borod conferred with ]\Ir. Magee. )
Mr. Clardy. If you have any other statements to make, you may
state them fairly, but we have heard enough about the first amend-
ment. Do you raise the fifth amendment, or any of the others ? If so,
invoke it.
]Mr. BoROD. I also decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment, and I further decline to answer on the legal grounds of
the ninth amendment, which reads as follows
Mr. Clardy. You don't have to read that. We will excuse that
We have it in front of us here. Pass on. Now, do you raise any
others? W
Mr.BoROD. Sir? |
Mr. Clardy. Do you raise any other amendments ?
Mr. Borod. I am not sure, sir. With the ninth amendment
Mr. Clardy. You are through with the ninth amendment. Now let
us pass on to the next one.
Mr. BoROD. I also wish — I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds that it would be a violation of the entire Constitution of the
United States, and I will not be a party to that, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Now, if you wish to raise the same objec-
tions to any other questions you need only state the fact that you do
decline on the grounds previously stated. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. How long prior to August 19, 1949, was it that you
came to the city of Flint for employment and to make it your place of
residence ?
Mr. Borod. Sir, I decline to answer any questions regarding the free
right to travel, to work where one pleases. The only place that I know
•where these rights are taken away was in Nazi Germany and in South
Africa, sir, where the caste s^vstem exists.
Mr. Velde. I just wanted to dispute that statement just a minute.
Mr. BoROD. Go ahead, Mr. Velde.
^fr. Velde. What do you think would happen to you if you Avould
go up before a court of law in Soviet Eussia or any of the Soviet
Russia satellites and give the kind of answers that you have given to
this committee of the United States Congress ? Do you have any idea?
Maybe you had better consider that a little bit.
Mr. BoROD. Are you asking me a question, sir ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5749
Mr. Veld. Yes, I am.
Mr. BoROD. Your remarks regarding Russia, which is a controver-
sial subject, and which I do not wish to discuss in this hearing room,
are made for the sole purpose of inciting the American people into
a war against Russia for the purpose of making billions of dollars of
profit for the large corporations, particularly General Motors Corp.,
sir.
Mr. Velde. That, sir, typifies you as an American Communist at
the present time, that very statement.
Mr. BoROD. That typifies you as a warmonger, sir.
Mr. Velde. I suggest that we cannot get anything more from thi&
witness and he be excused at the present time.
Mr. Clardt. Mr. Tavenner, ask him the one remaining question
tliat you must know is on our minds.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Borod, you were identified by Mr. Herbert
Donnelly and also by Beatrice Churchill and also by Bereniece Bald-
win as having been a member of the Communist Party working in the
area of Flint. Were those identifications of you true or false?
Mr. Borod. Mr. Tavenner, stoolpigeons never tell the truth.
Mr. Tavenner. Then will you tell us the truth '.
Mr. Borod. Mr. Tavenner, I will be perfectly willing to discuss my
views with an3"one at any time and at any place.
Mr. Tavenner. I didn't ask for views.
Mr. Borod. But not under the subpena of this committee, a com-
mittee which is known in the labor m.ovement as an antilabor com-
mittee, and I will not become a part of the destruction of the trade-
union movement, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I didn't ask you for an opinion. I asked you for a
statement of a matter of fact.
Mr. Borod. In my opinion this is fact, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Is that the only answer you care to give ?
(At this point Mr. Borod conferred with Mr. Magee.)
Mr. BoROD. I have been advised by counsel, sir, to refuse to answer
this question on the legal grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. I wish, Mr. Chairman, to have the record show that I
contradict very strenuously the statement of this witness that thi&
committee is known by the labor movement in America as antilabor.
I happen to know that is not a fact. I do know, however, it very defi-
nitely is known as an antilabor committee by the Coinmunists in the
labor movement in America, not by the patriotic unions nor by the
patriotic membership in the labor unions.
Thank God there are only a very, very few that are not absolutely
patriotic.
Mr. Clardy. I concur, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. BoROD. Mr. Tavenner, you know that I am not going to answer
that question,
Mr. Clardy. Very well, decline to do so and state your gi'ounds.
Mr. Borod. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. Do you have any further questions, Mr.
Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. The witness is excused.
5750 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Now. in vit'W of the fact tliat it is almost 4: 30, we have a few things
which must be said.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairnnan, I am sure tlie record should show at
this point that the subcommittee here has authorized the subcommittee
chairman to make the announcement about the future dates.
Mr. Velde. Yes. Mr. Chairman, before closing the meeting this
afternoon I would like to make just a very brief statement concern-
ing the committee hearings here. I feel first of all that we owe a
debt of gratitude to our good colleague from the State of California,
Mr. Doyle, for taking time out to come out here to Michigan and
render the able service he did as the Democratic member of this com-
mittee.
I know that he has contributed a great deal to the hearings here
today. I also want to compliment you, my good friend from Michigan,
on your able liandling of the chair during the course of these liearings.
May I say also, as chairman of the full Committee on Un-American
Activities, that I appreciate the courtesy that all of the courthouse
officials, the State police, the security officials in your various fine auto-
mobile plants and sparkplug plants here have shown the committee
and its staff, and I think I did mention the local police.
We thank them for the courtesy, and also I am sure that you will
thank the Board of Supervisors for giving us this fine hearing room
to hold our hearings in.
May I say that as far as the members of the bar here in Flint are
concerned, that all of those who have represented witnesses here
before this congressional hearing, have at all times acted in accordance
with the ethics, the high ethics, of the bar association of this State and
of the United States, I am sure, and for that we are extremely grateful.
It has been a pleasure for me to be here, and I hope that I will be
able to come back in the future — possibly under different circum-
stances, where I can enjov some of the natural resources that you have
here in the great State of j\Tichigan.
Mr. Clardy. Thank you. Chairman Velde. Of course I am afraid
that when we start talking about the beauties of Michigan, that we
may have Mr. Doyle on our necks because he talks about California
all the time, and now he wants to say it.
Go ahead.
Mr. Doyle. I wish to sav, inasmuch as the distinguished chairman
of the full committee of nine members mentioned the fact that I did
come to occupy the minority seat on this committee durinir this sub-
committee hearing, and he identified me as a Democrat from Con-
gress — that is true — and I just wish to state this. Mr. Chairman, that
while it was not an easy matter for me to get away from Washington
at this time, I was glad to come to fill in in the emergency.
One further statement: I want this audience to understand, and I
want my fellow Democrats to understand very clearly that we of the
Democratic Party, we men that are elected to Congress, the leadership
of the Democratic Party, are not one bit less axious to help rid Ameri-
can labor imions and American industry and in fact the whole Ameri-
can scene of Communists or other subversive conspirators than is the
Republican Party or any other .*Troup.
I want to make it clear, as a Democrat — first T am here as an Ameri-
can Congressman, but T came to this committee deliberately yesterday
on invitation from the chairman in an emergency to fill this seat. I
COMMUNIST ACTrV'ITIES JN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 5751
want you as American citizens to know that the Democrats are not
less interested in doing this job, which is very difficult, very uncom-
fortable, very nerve- wracking, in time. The Democratic Party is just
like the Re})ublican Party- — w^e are Americans first, and we are paili-
sans second, but we are a hundred percent together in the difficult
job of ridding, releasing to exposure of clean atmosphere those Ameri-
can citizens who, whatever their motives, dedicate their lives to Soviet
communism rather than to the United States of America.
Mr. Clakdy. Thank you, Mr. Doyle.
Those who remain under subpena, and have not been called to the
stand, by the direction of the chairman of the full committee will
report on Ma}' 27 next unless, in the interval, word to the contrary
setting a new place or date should be announced. Unless you are
advised to the contrary, you will report in this same room on May 27.
It is entirely possible, however, that the busy schedule of the mem-
bers of the full committee may make it difficult for us to keep that
date. We may even have to move the entire hearing to Detroit, or
we may have to bring some of the witnesses to Washington.
That is something yet to be solved and decided on, but because of
the legal problems involved, we are malving the announcement now
that the subpenas for those w^ho have not been called are continued
until JSIay 27 in this room. May 27 tliis year — yes, including, as I am
reminded, James A. Coleman, who started to testify and who was
asked to step aside because it was obvious we could not complete in
the time required, and it will be 9 : 30 a. m., and if there is any
doubt or confusion in anybody's mind, inquiry should be made to us,
either now or in writing after we have left.
Now, of course, I can't let this hearing conclude without adding a
little bit to the things said by Mr. A^elde and Mr. Doyle. Chief Byars
and his force have been most cooperative throughout the period of
the investigation and have contributed much to the committee in help-
ing us solve a lot of tough problems. They have done an excellent
job in keeping order in addition to that.
The State police I have thanked before, but I want to single out my
good friend, Andy IVIost, who has been working with JMr. Appell, our
investigator, and with Mr. Jones the other investigator, for a long
period of time and done an excellent job, but the entire State police
force have cooperated with us in a way that deserves special com-
mendation.
Mr. Galliver, of course, should be mentioned. He has made it possi-
ble for us to have about the largest room in Flint. We certainly appre-
ciate it. I shall call it to the attention of my colleagues in the House
when I return.
If there is anyone I have left out, I will just issue a blanket thank
you to everyone who has in any way made our stay here pleasant. I
am not speaking of the time spent in the hearing room itself. But at
any rate, the committee will conclude its hearings at either the dates
set or some other.
I want to let everyone who is under subpena know that they are not
being excused if they have not been on the stand and excused.
With that the hearing is adjourned.
(T\^iereupon, at 4 :30 p. m., the hearing was adjourned.)
INDEX TO PART 10
Individuals
Page
Baumkel, Sherwood (Jerry) 5691,
5701-5702 (testimony), 5703, 5712-5723 (testimony)
Baxter, Bolza 5695
Baxter, Jean 5695
Baxter, Louis 5695
Baxter, Nadine 5695
Birdsell, Henry 5695
Blassinsiame, Barry 5683, 5713
Bored, Geneva (Mrs. Murray Borod) 5684, 5692, 5713
Borod, Murray 5684, 5692, 5693, 5713, 5746-5751 (testimony)
Brandi, Zina (see also Haskell, Zina Brandi) 5691
Brant, Joe 5681, 5682
Churchill, Beatrice 5679, 5698, 5727, 5749
Churchill, Eobert 5698, 5699
Coleman, James A 5744-5747 (testimony), 5751
Dantzler, Friendly 5695
Dantzler, Lloyd 5695, 5696
Dean, Max 5711
Dean, Rees 5711
Dodd, Bella 5694
Donnelly, Herbert 5679,
5680-5700 (testimony), 5702-5711 (testimony), 5712, 5733,
5749.
Engel, Marvin 5684, 5685, 5090
Falk, Howard 5689
Fields, Ben 5695
Foster, Howard 5681, 5684
Foster, Shirley (Mrs. Howard Foster) 5684
Foster Shirley (see also Perkins, Shirley Foster) 5679
Freeman, Ralph 5711
Gould, Robert 5720
Haskell, Zina Brandi (Mrs. Ray Haskell; see also Brandi, Zina) 5691
Holland, Erwin 5696
Ingram, Rose 5706
Karpell, Ted 5691
Kelley, Tom 5683
Kenny, Casper 5683
Magee, David S 5731-5744, 5746-5751
Mayen, Betty (Mrs. Al Mayen) 5693
McGee, Willie 5706
Milstein, Al 5720
Mitchell, Charles 5683
Moscou, Jack (Jacob S.) 5685,
5691, 5727, 5732-5744 (testimony)
Moscou, John Fitz 5731
Moscou, S 5740
Nefaro, Al 5686, 5696
Newblatt, Harry 5701, 5702, 5712-5731, 5744-5746
O'Dowd, Robert 5681, 5682
Olmsted, Geneva 5693
Perkins, Shirley Foster 5679
Reuther, Walter P 5704, 5708
Hoberge, Louis 5691, 5695
ii INDEX
Page
Robeson, Paul 5698
Sapfrtiuski, Leon 5693
Sliiiin, Charles 5684
Thomas, Betty 5693
Trachtenhei-}:, Martin 568.S-5687, 5690
Tiachtt'iih(>r}r, Max 5690, 5713
Van der Does, Lola (.Mrs. William C. Van der Does) 5691
Van d(M- Does, William C 5690,
5691, 5723-5731 (testimony), 5734-5736, 5739, 5740
White, Jack 5682, 5685, 5687, 5702, 5713
Widmark, Jim 5682, 5683
Zarlchny, Jimmy 5696
Organizations and Publications
Anderson Tank Mannfacturin;,^ Co 5732
Angel's Poultry Products Co., Detroit 5718-5721
City Colleji-e of New York 5723, 5724, 5728
Communist Party, Michigan 5694
Communi.st Party, Michigan (Flint) 5682,5683,5690,5709
Detroit Free Press___ 5713
Federal IJureau of Investigation 5680,5703
Fisher Body Corp 5684, 5690, 5724-5726
General Motors Corp 5722, 5749
AC Spark Plug Division 5695
Buick Motor Car Division 5tiS0-
5683, 5686, 5687, 5689, 5695, 5707, 5709, 5710, 5715, 5716, 5719, 5720
Chevrolet Division 5683,
5684. 5691, 5692, 5732, 5733, 5735, 5739, 5741, 5742, 5746, 5793
Independent Progressive Party 5682, 5707
Labor Youth League 5695, 5722
Oswego State Teachers College, N. Y 5733
Stockholm Peace Pledge 5698
United Auto Workers, CIO 5704,5708,5730
Ford Local 600 5708
United Nations 5697
William Shalnd Corp 5716
O
BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY
Hillll
3 9999 05445 3210
I.:i
! J'^'fy)
m
fHuif
??(t!H(!{ilifllif!!!ppp
TVNews
OpenLibrary