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INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— Part 11
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
NOVEMBER 17, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
INCLUDING INDEX
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
48861 WASHINGTON : 1954
Boston Pub! »ry
Superintendent of Documents
FEB 2 1955
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois, Chairman
BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York
DONALD L. JACKSON, California
KIT CLARDY, Michigan
GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania
MORGAN M. MOULDER. Missouri
CLYDE DOYLE, California
JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee
Robert L. Kunzig, Counsel
Frank S. Tavbnner, Jr., Counsel
Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk
Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research
Courtney E. Owens, Chief Investigator
n
CONTENTS
November 17, 1954, testimony of — Pq„0
Robert Alan Carter fJJJ
James Andrew Lewis Coleman i\^t
Molly Baumkel _""" l"°
James Andrew Lewis Coleman (resumed) "_"_"" \\k\
Index _ ll0X
m
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
******
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (iii) all other questions in relation theerto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
lias recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
V
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 83D CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1953
*******
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con-
gress, the following standing committees:
*******
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
*******
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.
VI
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— Part 11
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 17, 1954
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. G.
PUBLIC HEARING
"The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to call,
at 10 : 14 a. m., in the caucus room, 362, Old House Office Building,
Hon. Harold H. Velde (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman), Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, Francis E. Walter, and
Morgan M. Moulder.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Thomas
W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk ; Donald Appell, Courtney E. Owens, and
George E. Cooper, investigators.
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Reporter, let the record show that present are Mr. Clardy, Mr.
Scherer, Mr. Walter, Mr. Moulder, and myself as the chairman, a
quorum of the full committee.
Before calling the first witness, I should like to state the witnesses
called today are from the States of Michigan and Ohio.
This hearing is a continuation of the hearings which were held in
the State of Michigan in May of this year, and in Dayton in September
of this year.
At the time the committee originally scheduled its hearings in Michi-
gan, sufficient witnesses were subpenaed to assure the committee a
full 2-week hearing.
However, the legislative program of the House, including the
passage of the St. Lawrence Waterway bill, necessitated the return
of the committee members to Washington before calling all of the
witnesses under subpena.
The witnesses are largely individuals who have been identified as
members of the Communist Party, sent into the Michigan area for
the purpose of obtaining employment in the auto industry and thereby
bringing Communist influence into the labor locals.
Several of the witnesses under subpena falling outside the category
of colonizers have been brought to Washington because the committee
has knowledge they are in possession of information concerning Com-
munist activities in the Michigan area and, further, because the com-
mittee knows they have no reason to withhold this information.
Whether they give the committee, through testimony, the benefit of
their knowledge or whether they refuse to do so is solely within their
power.
7103
7104 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IV THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
The shortness of time allotted to the conduct of the hearings in
Dayton has resulted in the necessity of continuing that hearing by
calling several witnesses for further testimony.
M p. ( Jounsel, you may call your first witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Robert A. Carter, will you come forward.
please \
Mr. Velde. Will you raise your right hand?
In the testimony you are about to give before this committee, do you
solemnly swear thai you will tell the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
.\ I r. Carter. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT ALAN CARTER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, HAROLD A. CRANEFIELD AND JOSEPH L. RAUH, JR.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Carter. Robert Alan Carter.
Mr. Tavenner. I notice you are accompanied by counsel. Will
counsel please identify themselves for the record ?
Mr. Cranefifxd. My name is Harold A. Cranefield. I am an attor-
ney of the Michigan bar and of other States and Federal courts.
Mr. Rauh. My name is Joseph L. Rauh — R-a-u-h — Jr., 1631 K
Street, Washington, D. C.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Carter?
Mr. Carter. Born in Flint, Mich., July 1, 1916.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Carter, you are not called before this com-
mittee on the basis of any testimony or any information or belief on
the part of the Committee on Un-American Activities that you have
ever been identified in any way with the Communist Party.
You are called here for the sole purpose of answering questions
regarding your knowledge, if any, you have regarding Communist
Party activities in the area of Flint, Mich.
I believe you are the regional director for the UAW-CIO in the
Flint area, are you not?
Mr. Carter. Yes; Flint, Lansing, Fenton, and Owosso.
Mr. Tavenner. That is the area which is covered by your regional
directorship?
Mr. Carter. Yes; it is.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the proper designation of your region !
Mr. ( JarteH. It is region 1-C.
Mr. Tavenner. How many local unions are included within your
directorship, and what are their names?
Mr. Carter. T couldn't quote them all verbatim or the exact number.
T can start reading them off and hope that I get them all.
Tn Flint we hare AC Spark Plug Co., Buick, Chevrolet, Turste.lt.
two Fisher Body plants, Palace Travel Coach, Standard Cotton, ami
several smaller plants that come under the Palace Travel Coach local
Mr. Clardt. Under the Palace, yon say ?
Mr. Carter. Under the Palace local. It is an amalgamated local
Mr. ClaRDT. Sort of a subsidiary to that main one or a br;im!i
Mr. Carter. No: they are a part of it. You see, where there are
Small locals which cannot maintain themselves, we make them all a
part of the large local, and they all have an equal voice.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7105
. In Fenton we have 2 or 3 small industries — Fenton Tool Industry;
Fenton Tool & Die. I am not sure of it.
InOwosso we have Redmond's Auto-Lite and several smaller locals
that are part of the Redmond local, Redmond amalgamated-
i! In Lansing we have Oldsmobile, Fisher Body, Reo, and 724, which
takes in several small unions.
Mr. Clardy. Is Motor Wheel in that group?
v Mr. Carter. No ; Motor Wheel is an American Federation of Labor
lunion.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time have you been the regional
director of C-l ?
Mr. Carter. I was elected in March of 1951.
E Mr. Tavenner. Have you held any positions within that region in
the union prior to your elevation to your present position ?
Mr. Carter. Oh, yes ; several.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you describe the principal positions ?
Mr. Carter. I was president of A. C. local ; I was chairman of the
bargaining committee in A. C. local ; for 3 years I was
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. When were you president of the A. C.
i local ?
Mr. Carter. 1947 until 1948, the spring of each year. I am not sure
of the exact date ; 3 years preceding that I was chairman of the bar-
gaining committee in that local union.
I was three times president of the Greater Flint Industrial Council ;
then a district committeeman ; served as labor's representative on the
OPA in the area ; been vice president of the State CIO ; and probably
a lot of other ones ; but those are the principal ones.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Carter, during the course of the hearings which
this committee conducted in Detroit, and in Flint during April and
May of 1954 a secret directive of the Communist Party was brought to
light which exposed the Communist Party plan to colonize industry.
It was the view of this committee that this plan of colonization was
[designed to strengthen Communist Party units in that vital area, and
that it was also intended to make available in that area intelligent and
trained Communist Party leadership for future activity in that area.
The effort exerted by the Communist Party to put that plan into
effect and the extent of its success is under a continuing investigation
by this committee.
Quite a few witnesses were heard on that subject, both at Detroit
and in Flint.
Quite a number of persons answering the category of colonizers, as
I have indicated, were identified in the testimony taken at those two
places.
, The September 8, 1954 issue of the State Journal, a newspaper pub-
lished in Lansing, Mich., has come to the attention of the committee,
in which it is reported that you made a statement in the course of a
speech which you delivered on the preceding day before the Lions
Club and the Optimist Club in Lansing, indicating that you have some
knowledge on that subject, and it is with regard to that I desire to
question you particularly.
This news article referred to quotes you in this manner :
"These 27"—
48861— 54— pt. 11 2
7106 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
the 27, parenthetically, related to certain individuals who had been
identified as colonizers during the course of the testimony before the
committee
"were known before Kit Clardy and his House Subcommittee on Un-American
Activities ever probed into the situation," Carter declared.
"Seventeen of them," he stated, "were known just as soon as they showed in
meetings. Most of them were sent to Flint from New York and most of them
were educated in the City College of New York. They were spotted because they
talked way over the heads of the union man and because they knew nothing of
automobile-plant work." Carter said.
The speaker said, "The other 10 were regular automobile-plant workers, and
although it took a little longer we found them out."
Were you correctly reported in that article ?
Mr. Carter. Well, pretty close to correct. The quoting of the
figures, of the amount of people, is not correct.
I don't believe I quoted a figure. I believe, if my memory serves me
right, either fortunately or unfortunately — I don't know which— I
never write a speech and I have no copy of the speech ; but, as I recall.
I said that no one was exposed that we already do not know.
Now, it is actually only a partial quote there, too, because if I may
go a little further than your question on this matter, my speech in front
of the Lions club was on the subject of capital and labor's part in
democracy, and this was only a small portion of the speech, and it
followed the newspaper article in Flint which had quoted the chair-
man of the subcommittee as stating that he had exposed many people
who held key positions in our union in the city of Flint, and that is
what brought about my discussion when I said that was not true, that
no one who was exposed held any key positions in our union.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. I didn't see that and I have made no statement about
exposing men in key positions in the union.
I wonder if you have a copy of the quotation of the speech ?
Mr. Carter. Unfortunately, I don't have that, and I believe, Con-
gressman, it occurred in the Flint News- Advertiser, because I got
clippings in the Journal. I didn't get that one.
Mr. Clardy. If you could get it and give me a reference, I would
appreciate it
Mr. Carter. I certainly will.
Mr. Clardy. Because what I did say was that we had exposed some
27 colonizers and that there were 75 that we knew about yet to be
exposed.
There was no reference made to any position that they occupied, but
I did make this very clear and I apprehend that you didn't get it:
that a Communist in any organization, my own, yours or any other, is
dangerous to America regardless of the position that he occupies.
Now, that is what should have been quoted.
I see that you were given credit for saying 27. I apprehend that was
because we had exposed 27 and they wove that into the story with your
merely saying
Mr. Carter. It is a minor statement, anyway.
Mr. Clardy. That is right.
It wasn't germane, really, or necessary.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7107
Mr. Carter. If I could have a couple of minutes, I think I could
clear this matter up and clear up our position also, if you would care
to let me talk for a couple minutes here to clear it up.
Mr. Tavenner. I will be very glad to let you make any explana-
tion you desire, but I believe for the moment if you will let me ask —
I say I believe that is entirely in order, but I believe before you make
your explanation I would like to ask you 1 or 2 questions, following up
the question that I just asked you.
You stated that the article which I read was in substance correct, and
I am referring now particularly to your statement that 27 persons were
known to you, or at least those that the committee had identified were
known to you.
Now, I want to ask you whether you will furnish the committee with
the names of any persons in addition to those 27 whom you place
in the category of colonizers.
Mr. Carter. I want to say this, at the outset : That I don't have any
legal or probative evidence that any person is a member of the
Communist Party. Therefore
Mr. Clardy. Pardon me. You mean even including the 27 whose
identity we revealed in Michigan ?
Mr. Carter. Legal or probative evidence I don't have on any of
them.
Mr. Walter. As I understand the witness, then, what he stated was
a mental operation. It was a conclusion he reached because of certain
things that happened, but he did not have the kind of evidence that
is admissible in a trial in court.
Isn't that it?
Mr. Carter. That is correct. My obligation as a union officer re-
quires me to keep close watch on as many of our membership as we
can, and while I may know it myself, I do not have legal or probative
evidence.
Mr. Clardy. Would it be fair to say, then, you had what amounted
to a suspicion or a belief that some of them were members, but that,
unlike the committee, you did not have any evidence of probative
value that could have been produced to prove that those people were?
Mr. Carter. Just one second.
(At this point, Mr. Carter conferred with Messrs. Cranefield and
Rauh.)
Mr. Carter. As I stated previously, I don't have legal or probative
evidence, didn't have then, but my beliefs are my own, of course.
Mr. Clardy. Oh, certainly ; and nobody is criticizing you for that
because even the committee has many times concluded in its own mind
that somebody may be a member of the party or not a member and
still not be able to clinch it, and we try, and I think we succeed, never
to have anybody identified before this committee unless and until we
have evidence that will stand up and that will clinch it.
Now, on those 27 irrefutable evidence was produced before the com-
mittee, not only in Michigan, but at other places, linking these people
with the Communist Party, and I assume that one of the things that
made you say what you did was that you accepted our conclusion —
at least in part — as proof in support of your belief.
Am I not correct there ?
Mr. Carter. I had those beliefs, Congressman, a long time before
your committee was there.
7108 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. Well, you couldn't do anything about it for the reasons
you have indicated? .
You didn't have any proof ; so, you had to keep it to yourself i
Mr. ( arter. That's correct.
Mr. ( 'lardy. Thank you.
Mr. Tavkxnkk. I think that clears up the question I had in mind.
The inference from the article was that you knew you had knowledge
of Communist Party membership of these colonizers, but actually it
was a conclusion which you had reached on speculation and surmise
and not on any tangible evidence.
Mr. Walter. I think it was more than speculation, because, after
all, when people are experts in this field they can spot a Commie in
5 minutes, and it is more than speculation.
While you can't prove a man has a card in his pocket, nevertheless
his activities at a union meeting brand him as indelibly as if he had a
great, big sign across his forehead.
' They are not kidding as many people as they think they are,
particularly labor leaders.
They don't kid them for one minute.
Mr. Clardy. All of which prompts me, if I may, Mr. Chairman, to
ask this question : When you had some pretty definite suspicions of
that kind, why did you not bring that to the attention of the prior
committee back in 1952 ?
Mr. Carter. You are referring, I assume, Congressman, to the
Mallard committee?
Mr. Clardy. No, no. You are talking now about the testimony you
gave in March of 1952 before an assistant attorney general, where you
testified under oath, much as you are testifying now.
Mr. Carter. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Now, I am saying this : If you did have such strong
beliefs and suspicions, even though you didn't have proof, how did it
happen that you didn't bring it to the attention of the House Commit-
tee on Un-American Activities or one of the Senate committees at that
time that were deeply engaged in trying to help you clear the unions
of Communist influences ?
Mr. Carter. Well, Congressman, we have done a pretty good job of
clearing the unions of Communist influence by ourselves, and we
haven't had to ask for outside help to do our job.
Mr. Clardy. Well, you didn't get rid of any of those 27, did you/
Mr. Carter. Congressman, I think you ought to check the provi-
sions of the Taft-Hartley law and you will find out the only way we
can bar a person from working in the plants or belonging to our union
is by their refusal to pay dues.
Now we have consistently asked for changes in the Taft-Hartley
law, even its repeal. We haven't gotten it.
Mr. Clardy. You misapprehend what I was getting at: I started
off by saying: Why did you not bring it to the attention of the
committee ?
Mr. Carter. I think my first answer to that, Congressman, answers
that, where I said I have no legal or probative evidence, and I can say
further on that score, Congressman, from listening to the transcript
of the hearings, as was played over the air in Flint, when you held the
hearings there, and reading them in the papers, and so forth, I assume
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7109
the FBI has much more legal and probative evidence than any of us
could provide and the committee was — that information apparently
was made available to the committee.
Mr. Clardy. No, not by the FBI. I see you are under the same
misapprehension that a lot of people are.
We can give them information but, unfortunately, by law they are
prohibited from giving it to us ; but, at any rate, you did not take any
move at any time against any of those of whom you had some suspicion.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. What type of move are you talking about, Mr.
Congressman ?
Mr. Clardy. Any kind of move to get rid of them or to expose them,
or do anything to break their backs as effective Communists in the
labor movement.
Mr. Carter. In each local union the job of enforcing our constitu-
tion was carried out. Our constitution is much stronger probably
than the Constitution of the United States in this regard, in that we
do not allow any member of the Communist, Nazi, or Fascist Parties
to hold or even seek any office in our labor unions, and we carried out
that obligation.
That's my obligation that I take under oath when I become an officer.
It is an obligation that local union officers take, and we carried out
that obligation, Congressman, and there is nothing further that we
can do.
Mr. Clardy. Now suppose this committee — and forget the 27 — in
the future should, as it undoubtedly will, reveal the identity of the 75
additional colonizers, whose identity we have. Suppose that should
be laid out. Is there anything that the union can do to remove them
from the positions they occupy, even though they are merely members
of a local ?
Mr. Carter. Are you talking about the position of work in the shop,
or positions in the union, because they don't hold any positions in our
union.
If you are talking about their position in the shop, the job where
they make their living, we do not have any legal rights to remove them.
In fact, we are restricted from it by the terms of the Taft-Hartlev
law.
Mr. Clardy. And you have no authority, under your constitution,
to take away their union membership; is that what you are saying^
Mr. Carter. I want to say this, Congressman, that since 1941 — not
since 1952, but since 1941 — we have had provisions in our constitut ion
to prohibit Communist Party members, Nazis, Fascists, et cetera,
from holding office in our union.
Now those provisions have been consistently strengthened, and if
under the terms — and they are strengthened by delegates in conven-
tion that meet every 2 years, or elected delegates from all locals in the
UAW — those delegates write our constitution and make all changes in
the constitution.
They have made it consistently stronger, and if, under the tern is of
the Taft-Hartley law, we were allowed to expel people from member-
ship, thus depriving them of their job, which it doesn't allow us, then
1 feel quite confident that the delegates to our convention would put
the necessary legislation into our constitution.
7110 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clabdt. I differ with your interpretation of the Taft-Hartley
law ; but, at any rate, as you understand it now, you are powerless to
do anything about taking away their union membership ?
Mr. Carter. That's correct.
Mr. Walter. May I direct your attention to the same constitution
you are talking about, and I don't want to belabor this thing : After
all, under the provision that you describe as harsh — I think that is the
term you used — weren't certain Communist unions expelled from the
CIO?
Mr. Carter. Yes. Eleven unions representing a large amount of
the membership.
I want to check that figure.
(At this point Mr. Carter conferred with Messrs. Cranefield and
Kauh.)
Mr. Carter. Around a half million people who were members of
unions that were Communist dominated were expelled from the CIO.
Now, I don't want to infer here or anywhere else that those half
million people were Communists. Definitely they were not, but they
were Communist-controlled unions.
Mr. Walter. Isn't one of the amendments of the Taft-Hartley Act,
that I am very much in favor of, designed to assist the CIO in pre-
venting harsh treatment to those people who were put out of the CIO
because of membership in a Communist union, and if the law were
amended so that the union, the CIO, could deal with individual cases,
then nothing could be done to militate against those people who acci-
dentally are members of a Communist-dominated union ?
Mr. Carter. I believe that's right, Congressman. That is my
belief.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Why did the labor unions oppose some of our efforts
to get that kind of amendment in this last session of Congress ; do you
know ?
Mr. Carter. I will have to check with counsel. I don't know the
answer.
(At this point, Mr. Carter conferred with Messrs'. Cranefield and
Kauh. )
Mr. Carter. I am not aware that they did. If they did, I can't ex-
plain it.
Mr. Clardy. You wouldn't be in sympathy with it, if they did,
then ?
Mr. Carter. Any amendment, Congressman, to any bill that gives
us greater freedom to clean our own house I am in favor of.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Then you are certainly in favor of that type of legis-
lation that enables the unions to clean house, the bill this committee
had a great deal to do with, aren't you ?
Mr. Carter. I am not aware of the wording of the amendment,
Congressman.
Mr. Clardy. Not the Taft-Hartley law.
Mr. Carter. I would be a little reluctant to answer without knowing
its actual wording and meaning.
Mr. Clardy. Well, it is off the beam. I will talk with you a little bit
about it later.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7111
Mr. Moulder. I want to make one comment in the beginning. As
counsel stated, there is no charge or investigation of any affiliation on
your part in connection with Communist Party activities.
Now, I want to ask you one question : At the time referred to by Mr.
Clardy did you then possess or have any information or knowledge
or do you now possess or have any information or knowledge con-
cerning any Communistic activities on the part of any Communist,
other than your opinion that someone may be a Communist?
Mr. Carter. Again, Congressman, I would have to go back to the
original statement that I don't have legal and probative evidence.
Mr. Moulder. My point is : As I understand, you do not have any
such information and you did not have any such information at that
time other than your suspicion, as Congressman Walter has said, that
you believed or spotted the person as probably being a Communist ;
but as far as having any evidence — that you did not have ?
(At this point, Mr. Carter conferred with Messrs. Cranefield and
Rauh.)
Mr. Carter. I think I will use Congressman Walter's statement and
stand on that. I think it summed it up pretty well.
Mr. Moulder. The point I am getting at is that unless you did
have, or have now, I can see no purpose of the committee in carrying
on an argument with you about your functions in a labor union, and
I don't think that is in your jurisdiction or duty to do unless you
have any information about Communist activities.
Mr. Carter. I not only agree with that, but I have got my deer place
staked out and my gun oiled and I am not desirous of staying here
iiny longer than I have to either.
Mr. Moulder. I want to ask one more question — whether you have
any legal obligation or compulsion to report an opinion or suspicion
concerning something to this committee.
Mr. Carter. I didn't follow that.
You say that I have a legal obligation ?
Mr. Moulder. I say that I can understand that you do not have.
Mr. Carter. Oh, yes.
Mr. Moulder. If everyone was running to this committee with some
mere suspicion
Mr. Carter. Yes; I agree.
Mr. Moulder. I assume millions of people would be under constant
barrage.
Mr. Carter. Lots of innocent people would be branded.
Mr. Moulder. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Carter. I agree with that.
Mr. Walter. More you mean ? Not a lot ; more ?
Mr. Carter. Yes ; more.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Might I interject just one question, Mr. Carter : If you
do obtain information concerning Communist activities among your
group, or any other group, as far as that is concerned, you won't hesi-
tate to give that information?
Mr. Carter. Certainly not, no more than if I observed a robbery —
I assume I would be willing to be a witness in the case.
Mr. Moulder. You would, of course, be willing and anxious to co-
operate with this committee to give them any information you may
have concerning communistic or subversive activities?
7112 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Carter. Anything that I have that is legal and probative I cer-
tainly would be willing to give.
Mr. Veldb. Do you have anything further?
Mr. Scherer. Do you know any persons who in your opinion are
members of the Communist Party, other than the 27 who have been
exposed ?
Mr. Moulder. I can see where that question would be very unfair.
Mr. Scherer. I am not asking who they are. I haven't asked who
they are. I have said whether he knows.
I have stayed away from asking who, other than the 27.
Mr. Moulder. He hasn't indicated any evidence on his testimony
that ho has that knowledge.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't say that.
Mr. Walter. On the contrary, he didn't know there were 27.
Mr. Scherer. May I put my question again?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Other than those who have been exposed, the 27 or
25, are there any other individuals in your opinion who are members
of the Communist Party?
Mr. Carter. I think I answered that earlier, Congressman, when I
said I do not have any legal or probative evidence.
Mr. Scherer. I am not talking about legal or probative evidence.
I am not asking you for the names. I am just asking whether or not.
from what you have seen of their activities and from your observation
of the individuals, there are any other individuals Avhom you believe
to be members of the Communist Partv, the same as you did these 27
or 25.
I am not asking you for their names.
(At this point, Mr. Carter conferred with Messrs. Cranefield and
Raugh.)
Mr. Carter. My answer on that is the same as the answer I have
given.
Mr. Scherer. What is that answer ?
Mr. Carter. That I do not have legal or probative evidence.
Mr. Sctterer. In understand that, but you said in a speech before
the Lions Club that you knew 25 or 27 were members of the Communist
Party long before they were exposed by the committee.
Mr. ( Iarter. Congressman, I question your right to question me on
supposition.
If I have legal or probative evidence, I think you have the right to
question me on it. I do not have, and I do not think you have that
right to question me.
Mr. Scherer. Well, I, of course, think I do have the right.
Mr. Moulder. T will agree with the witness. I think this is a very
unfair question because it calls for a conclusion upon which he has no
evidence or
Mr. Walter. Mental operations or processes are no concern of our?.
Mr. Scherer. You just said, Mr. Walter, a man in his position is
able to tell a Communist by what he does in the union — what did yon
sai . :i- i I' he had a sign on the front?
Mr. Walter. That is right. I base that on years of experience in
which I have tried important lawsuits, where I have called witnesses
and asked them, "In your opinion, what is this and that?'?
This man is the same kind of expert.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7113
Mr. Scherer. All right. That is the reason I agreed with your
conclusion.
Mr. Walter. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. I certainly did. I think you are right in that con-
clusion, and I want to know if there are other individuals he knows,
because he said he stood on your definition, who, in his opinion, are
members of the Communist Party. I am not asking you the names.
I just want to know if there are other individuals.
Are there others who are in the same category ?
Mr. Carter. I want to consult with counsel.
(At this point Mr. Carter conferred with Messrs. Cranefield and
Rauh.)
Mr. Carter. Congressman, I can answer that in this way : Under
the provisions of our constitution, if any person whom I believe to be
a member of any of the parties I have mentioned in my testimony
should seek office in any of our local unions, I would be obligated to
put them under trial.
Now, there are other individuals whom I know — if they sought
office, I think I would seek trial procedure.
Mr. Scherer. I understand that. I don't think you have answered
the question, but suppose the committee, in a subsequent hearing in the
State of Minnesota or here, would reveal the names of 5, 10, 15, 75
additional individuals, who were colonizers and Communists ; I want
to know whether you would be in the position to say then, as you
said before the Lions Club, "I knew for many years" or "I had formed
a conclusion in* my mind that they were members of the Communist
Party"?
Mr. Carter. That would depend on who they were. In some cases
I would probably be able to say that.
Mr. Scherer. That is what I am driving at. Now you have
come to my answer.
Now, can you answer my question : Do you know as of today any
individuals in your union or any place else who, in your opinion,
are members of the party ?
Remember, I am not asking you who they are.
(At this point Mr. Carter conferred with Messrs. Cranefield and
Rauh.)
Mr. Carter. I am not going to go beyond the legal or probative
evidence that I do not have
I have stated that, and I certainly don't want to get in the position
of having my opinion smear anyone.
If I had legal or probative evidence, I would offer it.
Mr. Scherer. I am not asking you — I have been very careful not to
ask you — the names of any individuals.
I just wondered whether there were other individuals that you
know of
Mr. Carter. I thought I answered that.
Mr. Scherer. About whom you had the same opinion as you did
about the 27.
Mr. Carter. I don't know. Maybe I am a little dense here, but
Congressman, I thought I answered that question when I told you
there were certain people still within our union who, if they sought
office, I would apply the provisions of the Constitution.
48861— 54— pt. 11 3
7114 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
I think that answers it.
Mr. Scherer. All right.
Would yon give those names to our investigator?
Mr. Carter. Not without legal or probative evidence; no, sir
Mr. Scherer. You wouldn't tell us about those individuals? You
would; have to have some evidence to stop them from beino- elected
to positions of an officer position of the union, wouldn't you ?
Mr. Carter. Congressman, I want to say this : The evidence which
I would give m a trial in our union would be brought out in the pri-
vacy of the union, and would not bring a fellow under suspicion until
he has been proven, and the type of trial we give, Congressman, allows
cross-examination, allows appeal from the verdict of the trial com-
mittee, and censure, so that if they come through one of our trial com-
mittees, if they are guilty when they reached the final step, vou can
rest assured they are guilty.
Mr. Scherer. But you wouldn't give that information to either
the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to an investigator of our com-
mittee ?
Mr. Carter. It is my understanding, Congressman, the FBI and
your committee is also interested in conclusive evidence, legal and
probative evidence.
I don't have any and I wouldn't give any unless I had legal and
probative evidence.
Mr. Scherer. I think I understand.
That is all.
Mr. Clardy. May I ask a question?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. One or two, Mr. Carter.
Are you satisfied now that the evidence the committee produced
with respect to the 27 colonizers was solid evidence that had probative
value, enough to convince you that they are and were members of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Carter. Probably, Congressman, you would have to ask my
attorneys that. I am not an attorney, and I am not sure.
Mr. Clardy. I am asking you whether or not, after the committee
finished its work of identifying these 27 people, through the mouths
of several witnesses each time that was sufficient to convince you that
those 27, each and every one of them were members of the party or
whether you still take the position that they are not and that the'evi-
dence we have produced isn't worth while. .
Mr. Carter. I want a little time to talk to counsel on this.
(At this point Mr. Carter conferred with Messrs. Cranefield and
Rauh.)
Mr. Carter. Congressman, as I said, I heard, followed some of the
hearings. I didn't hear them all. I haven't read the transcript.
Several times I turned my radio on and listened to the hearings and
became a little disgusted and turned it off.
In the first place, I am not an attorney; I am not a judge, nble to
]>;ish sentence, and I don't think you have to ask me to pass sentence.
I don't think T am the judge or jury, either one. in this case. I am
just one of the public as far as this case is concerned, and I, not being
an attorney and not having read the transcript, I cannot say.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7115
Mr. Moulder. In fact, it has been a position of this committee — it
is not mine — not to make any conclusion of a hearing or finding anyone
guilty or not guilty.
Mr. Velde. That has been the attitude of all members of the com-
mittee, finding anybody guilty or not guilty.
Mr. Carter. Congressman, isn't it true all 17 or all 27 were not
questioned?
Mr. Clardy. Is it what?
»Mr. Carter. Is it true all 27 were not questioned at that time?
Mr. Clardy. It is true that all of them were identified.
All of them have been given an opportunity to be heard. We invite
all of them.
But I am asking you now a question of reduced area : As to those
on whom you did hear the testimony, are you still unconvinced that
they are not
Mr. Carter. The people whose testimony I heard used the fifth
amendment, and therefore it is rather hard to conclude.
Mr. Clardy. I see. On those you concluded they might not be
Communists ; is that right ?
(At this point Mr. Carter conferred with Messrs. Cranefield and
Rauh.)
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman. I want to make this comment : I think
it is very unfair to bring a witness before the committee and argue
with him whether he believes the work of the committee has certain
merit or weight in proving the guilt or innocence of any individual
or individuals.
Mr. Clardy. You misapprehend.
Mr. Moulder. I don't think it is fair to argue with the witness along
that line.
Mr. Clardy. I am through; but what I was trying to get at is that
he made the flat public statement that he knew these people were
Communists before we came on the scene.
Now he doesn't know after the testimony was produced.
II am satisfied.
Mr. Velde. Is there anything more, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. If not, the witness is excused.
I have been advised by the building superintendent this noise will
go on for the next 2 days. So we will now adjourn to the Armed
Services Committee room.
(Whereupon, at 10:58 a. m., a 7-minute recess was taken.)
(The committee reconvened in room 313, Old House Office Building,
at 11 : 05 a. m., the following committee members being present : Rep-
resentative Harold H. Velde (chairman), Kit Clardy, Gordon H.
Scherer and Francis E. Walter.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order.
Due to the fact that I have an important appointment, I am going
to have to leave. So, I now appoint a subcommittee consisting of Mr.
Clardy as the chairman, Mr. Scherer, Mr. Walter and Mr. Moulder.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Clardy (presiding) . Are you ready, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Call your first witness.
7116 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. James M. Coleman, will you come forward,
please?
Mr. Clardy. Will you stand?
Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Coleman. I do.
Mr. Clardy. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES ANDREW LEWIS COLEMAN
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Coleman. My name is James Coleman.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have a middle initial ?
Mr. Coleman. A. Andrew.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have another middle name in addition to
James A.?
Mr. Coleman. That is the only one I use.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the middle name ?
Mr. Coleman. Lewis.
Mr. Tavenner. James Andrew Lewis Coleman.
It is noted you are not accompanied by counsel.
It is the practice of the committee to advise every witness they are
entitled to have counsel with them, if they so desire, and they have a
right to confer with counsel should they desire.
Mr. Coleman. Well, on the question of counsel, I know it is the
fashion of this committee to say that they encourage or that they allow
counsel ; but the fact of the matter is that the lawyers and counsel
that are generally available for any kind of crime are very reluctant
to represent the witnesses because of the intimidation that they feel
this committee brings about.
Mr. Clardy. Now, just let me correct you on that. There are many
able lawyers, including two who appeared with the witness who ap-
peared first this morning.
There are other able lawyers in this room who have appeared re-
peatedly representing witnesses who have appeared before us.
I cannot let that go unchallenged.
Mr. Coleman. I can back the statement up.
Mr. Clardy. That is all.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Coleman. I would like to request that no pictures be taken.
Mr. Clardy. The witness will not
Mr. Coleman. This is a request
Mr. Clardy. Make any more statements, please.
Mr. Coleman. I would like to request
Mr. Clardy. Never mind.
Mr. Walter. Wait a minute.
Don't talk to him. Talk to me.
What is it you want ?
Mr. Coleman. I want to request that no pictures be taken.
1 understand I have that right.
"Mr. Walter. That is the rule of this committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Coleman, when and where were you born?
Mr. Coleman. I was born in Philadelphia, November 5, 1924.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7117
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Coleman. I reside in Flint, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Flint ?
Mr. Coleman. In answering that question, I understand, from the
purposes stated by you of the investigation of this committee, that
my loyalty is in question just because of the fact that I live in Flint,
and that because my living in Flint has not been a permanent thing,
that I came there at a certain time, at which vour committee is at-
tempting to establish a colonization took place, and because of that
basic approach that this committee has had and stated, I see more
to that question than just — I see the answer to that question being
more than just stating how long or where I lived at in Flint.
So, I would like to give my reasons for objecting to that question,
and
Mr. Walter. Now, do you refuse to answer the question ?
Mr. Coleman. Well, the point is
Mr. Walter. Do you refuse to answer the question?
Don't you understand English ?
Mr. Coleman. I understand English perfectly.
Mr. Walter. Do you refuse to answer the question of how long
you lived in Flint ? Answer "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Coleman. I can't answer "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Clardy. Yes ; you can, and I direct that you do so.
Mr. Coleman. You direct that I answer "Yes" or "No" ?
Mr. Clardy. Yes.
Mr. Walter. How long have you lived in Flint ?
Mr. Coleman. What do you want me to answer, "Yes" or "No"?
I will answer what you direct me to answer.
What do you want me to say ?
Mr. Clardy. You are asked to answer "Yes" or "No" to the ques-
tion propounded by Mr. Walter.
Mr. Coleman. Yes. What do you want me to say?
What do you want to know ?
Mr. Walter. How long have you lived in Flint ?
Mr. Coleman. I would like to give my answer to that question, but
I can only give it in the way I understand the question to be
Mr. Walter. Have you lived there 5 years ?
Mr. Coleman. Mr. Congressman, with all due respect, I would like
to point out the question
Mr. Walter. Have you lived there 5 years ?
Mr. Coleman. Is not a simple one. I don't understand it being
a simple question.
Mr. Walter. Have you lived in Flint 5 years ?
Mr. Coleman. I'd like to go
Mr. Walter. Have you lived in Flint 5 years ?
This isn't funny.
Mr. Coleman. I don't look at it funny.
Mr. Walter. It may be to you, but it isn't to me.
Mr. Coleman. I don't regard it as being funny. The question
Mr. Walter. Quit laughing then.
Have you lived in Flint 5 years ?
Mr. Coleman. I don't know whether I have lived in Flint 5 years
or not, exactly.
Mr. Walter. Have you lived in Flint 6 years ?
7118 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. (\>u. max. But I
Mr. Walter. Have you lived in Flint 6 years?
.Mr. ( (him \.\. May I answer the question?
Mr. Walter. Yes; answer it. Say ''yes'' or "no" — "Yes; I have
lived there 6 years" or "No; I haven't."
Mr. Coleman. Well, I would like to use the fifth amendment on
part of that question.
Mr. Walter. All right.
Mr. ( Ioleman. And on the other part of the question
Mr. Walter. In other words, you refuse to answer the question on
the ground that the answer might incriminate you; is that it?
Mr. ( Ioleman. That is a part of my answer.
Mr. AYalter. Is that the answer?
Mr. Coleman. That is part of my answer.
Mr. Walter. All right. Then let's go to something different now.
Have you lived in Flint 8 years?
Mr. Coleman. Well, a part of the answer to that question is that
1 claim the protection of the fifth amendment in not answering a
part of that question.
Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, I request that the witness lie directed
to answer the question.
Mr. (lardy. Yres. The Chair directs that you answer the question
last propounded.
Mr. Coleman. What is the question?
Mr. Clardy. Y"ou were asked as to whether you had lived in Flint
8 years. You are directed to answer that.
Mr. Coleman. Mr. Chairman, I answered the question.
Mr. Clardy. You have not.
Mr. Coleman. And I Avill answer it again.
Mr. Clardy. And you are directed to answer.
Mr. Coleman. Part of that question, as I understand it, I refuse
to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. What part?
Mr. Coleman. The part that tends to incriminate me.
Mr. Clardy. Which part tends to do that?
Mr. Coleman. The part that tends to incriminate me is the part
of associating me with a group that has come to Flint to colonize and
to cast upon my reputation that I am a subverter of the United States
or that I advocate the violent overthrow of the Government.
Mr. ( lardy. Now, we haven't reached that point. We haven't asked
you any of those questions.
Mr. ( Joleman. That is the question — the way I understand it.
Mr. ('lardy. I will ask you now: Were you associated with any
such group '.
Mr. Coleman. What group?
Mr. ( Jlardy. The group you just described.
Mr. ( Ioleman. Now, is the other question over?
Is this another question?
I have lost you.
Mr. ('lardy. You understand. You have a good education.
Mr. Coleman. Do I ?
Mr. Clardy. Now, suppose you tell us
Mr. Coleman. Well, I am asking for this question. What exactly
is the question?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7119
Have I answered the question before to your satisfaction ?
Mr. Clardy. You described a group which you said the answer to
the previous question might associate you with, and my question is :
Were you associated with that group ?
Mr. Coleman. Well, I would like to answer that in fullness, if I
may.
Mr. Clardy. Will you answer it "yes" or "no" ?
Mr. Coleman. If you direct me to answer it "yes" or "no" I will
Mr. Clardy. Will you please subside until I finish?
Let's have a little order here.
Will you answer the question either "yes" or "no," or do you intend
to invoke the fifth amendment ?
You have the right to do so, and we will accord you the privilege
if you want to do so; but we are not going to waste all day on you
having you make speeches.
If you want to raise the fifth amendment, say so.
Mr. Coleman. Well, I don't intend to answer the question "yes"
and I don't intend to answer it "no."
And I don't mean to use the fifth amendment to cover the entirety
of the question, as I understand it, because part of the question, as I
understand it, I would like to answer.
Mr. Walter. What part of the 8 years didn't you live in Flint?
Mr. Coleman. What did you say ?
Mr. Clardy. You heard the question.
Mr. Coleman. I heard the question, but I didn't get it completely.
What did you say ?
Mr. Walter. It is just about as sensible — go ahead.
Mr. Clardy. I will get at it a little differently, and we will start
this all over again.
On what date did you come to Flint?
Mr. Coleman. Well, if I may be allowed, I would like to answer
the question fully. If I can't — if you won't permit me — to answer
the question fully, then I would like to answer part of it by saying
that I claim my rights under the fifth amendment not to answer a
part of that question.
Mr. Clardy. Now, I have asked you a simple question as to the date
when you came to Flint.
Mr. Coleman. And I answered that.
Air. Clardy. I am directing you to answer that specific question
by telling us the date or telling us you refuse to answer and stating
the grounds for your refusal.
Air. Coleman. If I may state the grounds of my refusal to answer,
and my answer fully, I would be glad to do so.
Air. Clardy. We will not permit you to make a speech.
Air. Coleman. It is not a question of a speech.
Mr. Clardy. Let's get at it this way : Do you intend to raise the fifth
amendment in refusing to answer that question?
Mr. Coleman. I don't want you to understand — I don't want the
public to understand — I use the whole of the fifth amendment for that
question because I — —
Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
Mr. Clardy. You may.
Mr. Walter. On what date did you move to Flint, Mich. ?
7120 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Coleman. Mr. Congressman, as that question seems to me to be
of the same nature of the other questions that have been raised by this
committee and by the counsel, the nature, namely, of associating me
with the idea— with a group or as a subverter of the United States
( rovernment
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer the question propounded
bv Congressman Walter.
' Mr. Coleman. And my answer to the question, since I am directed,
will have to be, since von won't allow me to give my answer in full-
will have to be to claim my rights under the fifth amendment not to
incriminate myself.
That is the only way I can answer that question.
Mr. Moulder Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
Mr. Clardy. You may.
Mr. Moulder. Where did you reside before you went to Flint?
Mr. Coleman. I resided in a number of different places before I
went to Flint.
Mr. Moulder. The place you resided immediately before going to
Flint; where did vou reside?
Mr. Coleman. Mr. Congressman, that, too, as I understand, has
been used as a way of associating me with a colonization movement
because
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer the last question.
Mr. Coleman. They claim all the colonizers come from the East
and certain parts of the East, and
Mr. Clardy. Witness, did you hear me ?
You are directed to answer that question.
Now, I should warn you at this juncture that, in the opinion of the
Chair, at least, the invocation of the fifth amendment in refusing to
tell us where you lived before you went to Flint or telling us the date
you went to Flint is improper and you are, in my humble judgment,
endangering yourself in refusing to do it on that ground; and, so, I
am directing you, with that warning, to answer that last question.
Mr. Coleman. My answer — if I am using the fifth amendment in-
correctly, it's — I'm sorry that I will be under your
Mr. Ciardy. You may be sorry.
Mr. Coleman. That I may be at your mercy.
Mir. Clardy. Not at ours.
Mr. Coleman. But, nevertheless, as I understand the question, I see
it being more than a simple question ; and you, as an attorney, having
been an attorney before, know that questions that are apparently
simple have complicated meanings and I will answer the question if
you want me to, but — —
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman.
Mir. Clardy. Just a moment.
Let's see if lie is going to answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. I don't — when I say these things I don't want to
waive my rights, any of my rights, under the Constitution, and espe-
cially since the fifth amendment is important I would want to claim
that right at all times.
Mr. Walter. May I start from a different angle?
Mr. Clardy. May I be sure he is refusing? You are refusing to
answer on many grounds, including the fifth amendment?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7121
Mr. Coleman. I am not refusing to answer all of the questions I
understand, because I want to, as I say, answer part of the questions
as I understand that question to be.
Mr. Walter. Where were you born ?
Mr. Coleman. As I stated, I was born in Philadelphia.
Mr. Walter. When?
Mr. Coleman. November 5, 1924.
Mr. Walter. When did you leave Philadelphia ?
Mr. Coleman. 1924.
Mr. Walter. When did you leave Philadelphia?
Mr. Coleman. I went in service in 1942, I believe, and I stayed
there for quite a while.
Mr. Walter. And after you left the service you went back to
Philadelphia ?
Mr. Coleman. I did.
Mr. Walter. When was that ?
Mr. Coleman. I don't see any harm in that question. I will answer
that question, but I would like to say there are more answers you can
give than just the fifth amendment.
Mr. Walter. Answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. I protest.
Mr. Walter. No; you can't protest anything, because if it were
legitimate, I would be the last person in the world foreclosing a person
from answering anything.
Mr. Coleman. May I answer that question ?
Mr. Walter. All right ; answer it.
Mr. Coleman. What is the question ?
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Walter. Aren't you paying any attention ?
Mr. Coleman. I am, but I also have to think about a lot of other
things, too.
Mr. Walter. When did you leave the service ?
Mr. Coleman. Forty-six, I believe.
Mr. Walter. And did you go back to Philadelphia when you left
the service?
Mr. Coleman. I did.
Mr. Walter. How long did you remain in Philadelphia ?
Mr. Coleman. I remained in Philadelphia — I don't know; about
a year, I guess.
Mr. Walter. Then did you go to Flint ?
Mr. Coleman. I would like — that is the same question that I
answered before.
Mr. Walter. Did you go to Flint after you left Philadelphia?
Mr. Coleman. I would rather answer the question fully. If not,
I would like to claim the fifth amendment to the part of the question
1 understand
Mr. Walter. Then, as I understand it, you take the position mat
anybody who left Philadelphia is a colonizer for the Communists;
is that it?
Mr. Coleman. I am not taking that position. I don't know what —
the position that I understand this committee is taking is to prove
that there is a certain link of actions that have taken place in the
past some — I don't know what years, but have led to the Communist
48861—54 — pt. 11—4
7122 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Party sending me and others to Flint, Mich., to overthrow the
Government.
Mr. Sciierer. Well, did the Communist Party send you to Flint,
Mich.? J
Mr. Coleman. If I answered that question, it would have to be
in its entirety, and I would have to claim the fifth amendment
on all of these questions that have been asked me so far.
Mr. Walter. You decline to answer the question of whether or
not the Communist Party sent you to Flint, Mich., because to answer
that question might tend to incriminate you; is that your answer?
Mr. Coleman. Like all the other questions.
Mr. Walter. Is that your answer to this last one ?
Mr. Coleman. The answer is that, in order to answer it fully — you
won't allow me to answer it fully and, since I can't, I claim the fifth
amendment to part of the question.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Walter has a good sug-
gestion. I think we should let him answer that question fully.
Mr. Clardy. I see you have a written statement in front of you.
Mr. Coleman. It isn't as long as it looks, but I would like to
Mr. Clardy. It is longer than it should be, but I will see how our
patience
Mr. Walter. Has this statement anything to do with the question
you refuse to answer; namelv, whether 'the Communist Party sent you
to Flint, Mich.?
Is that in that statement?
Mr. Coleman. That's true.
Mr. Walter. Where?
Mr. Coleman. Well, it isn't any one word.
Mr. Clardy. How many pages long is that?
Mr. Coleman. Oh, let's see— big print — it's only 4 pages.
Mr. Clardy. The Chair will permit you to give the answer. We
will see how germane it is.
Mr. Walter. Is that responsive to this question now, the question
you refuse to answer ?
Mr. Coleman. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Clardy. We will see.
Let's hear it.
You can read it rapidly because the reporter can copy it. Read it
rapidly and hand it to the reporter so that he may get the correct
reading in the record.
Mr. Coleman. Where is the reporter at ?
Mr. Sciierer. Before you read it, did you write the statement your-
self ?
Mr. Coleman. I wrote the statement myself because, as I said,
I didn't have any attorney, because this committee, rather, as Clardy
said — the committee allows an attorney
Mr. Walter. That is not fair. Clardy, Mr. Clardy or Congress-
man Clardy didn't say that.
Mr. Coleman. It is not as simple.
Mr. Walter. You know full well that every witness appearing
before this committee has been accorded the privilege
Mr. Coleman. I had to go to five attorneys before I got one at-
torney, and then when I got him he wanted $5,000.
Mr. Walter. Maybe they didn't want to be seen with you.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7123
Mr. Coleman. That is what I say. This committee has brought
this situation about.
Mr. Walter. All right ; go ahead and read your statement.
Mr. Coleman. In answering that question, my loyalty to my coun-
try is being questioned, merely being called before this committee, be-
cause one is deemed guilty until proven innocent.
I want to answer all questions with clarity, simplicity, and without
fear. However, I must guard against being baited and trapped
by legal hair-splitting and being smeared as an enemy of my coun-
try. I must try to answer in such a way as to insure that you and the
public get the correct understanding from my replies.
I think that by calling me before this committee and thereby at-
taching to my reputation, by reference and innuendo that I am a
threat to America, that my actions are of a subversive nature, is in
itself an act of anti-Negro discrimination. I think it represents
malfeasance of office to thereby persecute me as a subversive
American.
Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, I would interrupt.
I move that be stricken from the record.
I am sick and tried of sitting here and listening to that sort of
tiling.
Mr. Coleman. I am not just stating it. I have something to sup-
port my statement.
Mr. Walter. Anti-Negro
Mr. Coleman. It is definitely anti-Negro.
Mr. Walter. That is a vicious falsehood.
Mr. Coleman. Well, the murderers, for example, of Harry Moore,
in Florida, have not been called or investigated by this committee,
and his wife and his whole family were not only murdered, but they
were intimidated.
Mr. Clardy. You better get back to reading your statement if you
want to have the privilege.
Mr. Coleman. All right.
Mr. Walter. It is typical of the old pro. That is it. It is just
the old pro statement.
Mr. Coleman. The imprisonment — this is a substantiation of the
fact — the imprisonment of a Negro mother, Mrs. Rosalie Ingram, in
Georgia, goes uncontested by you while daily civil rights of my
Negro brothers and sisters all over our country are overtly denied
to them.
Mr. Clardy. Let me interrupt you just a moment.
Did you copy out of the Daily Worker? I have found it in the
Daily Worker.
Mr. Coleman. If it is in the Daily Worker
Mr. Clardy. Will you please subside until I finish asking the
question ?
I have read that same tripe in the Daily Worker.
Mr. Coleman. It is not tripe.
Mr. Clardy. Did you copy it from the Daily Worker?
Mr. Coleman. It is not tripe. It is all fact and I have to live under
this situation.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
I am going to let you finish.
7124 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN"
Mr. Coleman. Has this committee ever, or will it ever, summon I
before it this character, Bowls, in Maryland, who is a rabid and
fanatical and open anti-Negro and Fascist?
AY ill you subpena any one of the southern officials who openly defy
the recent Supreme Court edicts on integration in public schools? I
The answer plainly is that you haven't bothered them, and you
won't bother them, yet you question my loyalty, which is obviously
and without a doubt more true than theirs.
I think this is a gross act of anti-Negro discrimination.
My allegiance to America is not only of the truest but is also the
highest type.
Mr. Scherer. All right, now. I think I have the floor. I asked |
the question.
I can't see that anything you have read so far comes anywhere near
answering my question, and the question is: Did the Communist
Party send you to Flint ?
Now, that is the question. You are talking about your loyalty to
your country and your loyalty being attacked and impugned.
Mr. Coleman. That is what the question is. My loyalty
Mr. Scherer. We can see right now whether your loyalty is being
impugned by the way you answer my question.
Now, will you answer the question ?
Then you can make any explanation you want.
Mr. Coleman. I am in the process of answering your question.
You haven't let me complete— —
Mr. Scherer. Will you answer the question ?
Mr. Coleman. I haven't answered the question yet.
Mr. Scherer. I think his position is that he has refused to answer,
and he is clearly in contempt.
Mr. Coleman. If I haven't answered the question fully, then I will
have to claim the fifth amendment on the rest of what I would like
Mr. Scherer. I thought you would claim the fifth amendment to
that question.
Isn't it a fact the Communist Party sent you to Flint, Mich., for the
purpose of colonizing in the automotive industry ?
Isn't that a fact ?
Mr. Coleman. The only way I can answer that question fully and in
circumstances you won't allow me — I will have to use the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Scherer. All right.
Mr. Walter. What type of work did you do before that ?
Mr. Coleman. I went to grade school, high school.
Mr. Walter. Work. Work, I said.
Mr. Coleman. I went to the Army when I got out of school.
Mr. Walter. You ever did any work at all before you went to Flint
to affix yourself on the honest, hard-working American laborers?
Mr. Coleman. I am a World War veteran. I am an American, four
generations back or more.
Mr. Walter. Did you ever work anywhere in your life outside of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Coleman. My answer to that question, like the other two ques-
tions you have asked me and not allowed me to complete an answer
Mr. Walter. Well, what type of work have you ever done?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7125
Mr. Coleman. I was a soldier in the Army, and the only thing they
would allow me to do was work, wash windows, and scrub floors, and
make up the officers' beds, and make ball fields for the white soldiers
that I couldn't play on myself, right here in the United States. That
is the type of work I have done.
Mr. Walter. That is the type of work you have done, and because
of the experience you gained
Mr. Coleman. And nothing was investigated there.
Mr. Walter. From building baseball fields for white ballplay-
ers
Mr. Coleman. And I wasn't allowed to play on it. Add that, too.
Mr. Walter. You went to Flint and became a leader in a labor
union ; is that it ?
Mr. Coleman. That is what you are saying. I am not saying that.
Mr. Walter. Well, is that the truth?
Mr. Coleman. My answer to that question is like the answer to
the other question, that unless I can answer the questions fully I will
have to use the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
you were in the Army ?
Mr. Coleman. Like the answer to that question, like the other
questions
Mr. Scherer. The fact is you were a Communist before you went
into the Army?
Mr. Coleman. You want to say I was a Communist, born ; is that it?
If you want to say that, you have that privilege.
Mr. Scherer. I am not saying that. I am asking you : Isn't it a
fact you were a member of the Communist Party before you went
into the Army and that your experience in the Army had nothing to
do with you becoming a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Coleman. Do you have that as a fact?
Mr. Scherer. I am asking you.
Mr. Coleman. Oh, you are asking me that.
Mr. Scherer. Isn't that a fact?
Mr. Coleman. I thought it was a rhetorical question, the way you
presented it.
Mr. Clardy. Answer the question, Witness.
Mr. Coleman. But actually, I wouldn't want to answer that ques-
tion unless I can answer it fully ; and since I can't, I will use the fifth
amendment.
. Mr. Clardy. What are you doing in the way of work at the present
time? I don't mean while you are sitting here on the stand, but be-
fore you came to Washington for this hearing.
Mr. Coleman. That question, like the other questions, Mr. Clardy,
if I am not allowed to answer fully, I cannot give a simple answer to,
because those questions are all links, and the only way you will allow
me to answer is by using the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Now, Witness, you are directed to answer that.
Mr. Coleman. And I use the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer that question, because all
I want to know is whether you are working or
Mr. Coleman. You want to know whether there is a linkage
Mr. Clardy. Witness, will you subside, please?
7126 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
You have been impudent enough, and your very conduct
Mr. Coleman. You are asking
Mr. ('lardy. Will you please keep quiet?
Listen carefully. I am going to ask you a series of very simple.!
understandable questions.
Are you working in an auto plant
Mr. Coleman. I answered the question.
Mr. Clardt. At Flint at the present time ?
Mr. Coleman. I answered the question. I said that if I am notl
allowed to answer these questions, that question, then I certainly
can't give the answer, as I understand it, by simply saying "Yes," "No,"':
or any one word, fifth amendment alone; but since I can't give a full
answer, I can only claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer the question I have just
propounded.
Mr. Coleman. How do you want me to answer it— yes or no ? You
direct me to answer it? I gave you my answer. I gave it just now.
Mr. Clardy. Now, as Mr. Scherer has suggested before, and as youi
undoubtedly know, in directing you to answer, I am telling you to
answer it yes, or no, or, if you wish, whether correctly or not, to
invoke the fifth amendment, or any other amendments to the Con-
stitution you wish, and then add any reasonable explanation for your
raising it.
Now, I am directing you to answer the question as to whether or
not you are presently engaged in working in an auto plant in Flint?
Mr. Coleman. Excuse me. I didn't get all you were saying there
a while ago.
Mr. Clardy. I will start all over.
Now, listen carefully and do not interrupt me, because if you do
I shall be compelled to take some measures to make you subside.
Are you now engaged in working in an auto plant in Flint?
I am directing that you answer that question.
Mr. Coleman. You direct me to answer it "Yes" or "No," or are you
directing that I use the fifth amendment?
Is that what you are saying?
I mean because if you want me to answer the question fully, I will
do so; but if I am not allowed to answer the question fully, I will
have to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. That question may be answered "Yes" or "No" or you
may invoke any section of the Constitution you wish as an excuse "for
not answering "Yes" or "No." After you have done that, then you may
make such explanation as you may desire, but not until you have done
so.
Mr. Coleman. Well, I can only answer the questions the way I
understand the questions, Mr. Clardy, and my understanding of the
question is that it is not a simple question. Part of that question I
would invoke the fifth amendment on; part of the question I would
answer.
Mr. Clardy. Tell me what part so we may understand.
Mr. ( 'oleman. I would invoke the fifth amendment completely now
because I know that I won't be allowed to give my full answer to that.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask you this question : Is it your opinion or
your belief that the Communist Party discourages and is opposed to
discrimination against the colored race?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7127
Mr. Coleman. If I answered the question honestly and gave you —
then I would be laying- myself open to — anything I say to this com-
mittee, almost giving my name, is laying myself open to breach of
getting cited for contempt and being jailed.
Mr. Walter. Did you ever live in Washington?
Mr. Coleman. Now, I will answer that question, if you will allow
me to
Mr. Walter. Did you ever live in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Coleman. I haven't finished answering his question yet.
Mr. Scherer. Yes ; you have.
Mr. Walter. Did you ever live in Washington, D. C?
Mr. Clardy. Why are you taking so long?
Mr. Coleman. The reason I am taking so long is that I happen to
know that one of the former chairmen of this Un-American Activities
Committee, Rankin, has called a school that I once attended a hotbed
of communism.
Mr. Walter. What school was that?
Mr. Coleman. That is just the whole thing, see ; anything I
Mr. Walter. Was it Howard University ?
Mr. Coleman. I would not answer the question unless I could point
out
Mr. Walter. Answer this question : Did you ever live in Washing-
ton, D. C?
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Coleman. I have been asked questions, 2 or 3 questions here,
now — —
Mr. Walter. Now, I am going to withdraw every question I have
asked you and I am going to ask you this one : Did you ever live in
Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Coleman. Well, I would like to invoke the fifth amendment on
that question.
Mr. Clardy. I direct that you answer that last question.
Mr. Coleman. I answered it. I invoked the fifth amendment.
Mr. Walter. Now, I want to ask you this one simple, little question :
What criminal prosecution do you suppose you might be exposed to if
you admitted at some time or another you lived in the Nation's
Capital?
Mr. Coleman. Strange as it may seem, the prosecution that I fear
from this committee is being cited for contempt and being jailed on any
kind of technical grounds.
Mr. Walter. You are leading us to the point where we can't do
anything else.
Mr. Coleman. That is what I feel.
Mr. Walter. All you have to do is answer these questions.
Mr. Coleman. I feel if I had done the committee any kind of crime
that I would, personally — I feel I would — I don't believe in crime,
and I would go along with this committee in apprehending crime or a
criminal, even if I was the criminal ; but this committee would put
me in jail, not having committed any crime, but simply on a technical,
legal basis; and, therefore, I feel it necessary to use any kind of con-
stitutional protection that I have, and that is why I use the fifth amend-
ment on even a question that seems to be simple, but which you, as a
Congressman, and you, as a former attorney, and so forth, know
Mr. Clardy. What do you mean ""former attornev."
7128 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
I still am attorney.
Witness, you are directed to answer the question as to whether on
not you have ever lived in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Coleman. Well, could I give a full answer?
Mr. Clardy. You may decline.
Mr. Coleman. May I give a full answer to the question ?
Mr. Clardy. You may decline and state the constitutional grounds,
if you desire.
Mr. Coleman. I think there is more grounds — there's other
grounds, too.
Mr. Clardy. No; there are no grounds other than constitutional
grounds.
Mr. Scherer. There isn't a constitutional ground for refusing to
answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. No proper one.
Now, do you decline to answer ?
Mr. Coleman. I decline to answer on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. All right.
Mr. Coleman. No pictures, fellow.
Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, it is apparent we are wasting a lot
of time. Why don't we call another witness ?
Mr. Clardy. Witness, pay attention.
Do you apprehend that a mere residence in Washington, D. C, is of
itself a crime ?
Mr. Coleman. I know that — I don't believe that mere residence is
a crime, but I believe that you would try to tie me up in a way to
show that my residence was connected with schooling, and being con-
nected with something else, et cetera.
Mr. Clardy. All right. I will ask you this, then : "While you were
in Washington, did you commit any crime of any kind which you are
apprehensive about, may be revealed and discovered in the course of
this examination?
Mr. Coleman. Naturally I invoke the fifth amendment on that
because I don't know. Maybe I jaywalked or something in Wash-
ington.
Mr. Clardy. All right ; proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Coleman, did you leave Howard University
in December 1948 in order to study Marxism at the Jefferson School
in New York?
Mr. Coleman. Mr. Tavenner, in my answer to that question, unless
I can give my full statement — since I am not allowed to, I invoke
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. By that do you mean that you are not fearful of
incrimination, but it is because you can't give a full answer that you
decline to answer?
Mr. Coleman. I claim my rights, whether I know just how they
apply. I claim even the first amendment, even though I don't state
the first amendment. I claim all my constitutional rights, and if I
don't — any of my replies don't mean that I waive my rights.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend the Jefferson School in New York
in 1948 and 1949?
Mr. Coleman. I decline to answer under the protection of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did 37ou become the social science editor of New
Foundation, a student quarterly of the Jefferson School in New York ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7129
Mr. Coleman. Fifth amendment. I claim the fifth amendment
because I can see.
Mr. Clardy. Now, Witness, I am going to direct you to answer that
because that is a matter
Mr. Coleman. Which question do you mean?
Mr. Clardy. Hold still. Don't be interrupting. You do that en-
tirely too much.
That is a matter that can be established and is already established
by documents that are of public record. So I am directing that you
answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. Well, if it is already established, why ask — —
Mr. Clardy. Never mind. We are asking you the question. I
am directing you to answer.
Mr. Coleman. How do you want me to answer that ?
Mr. Clardy. Yes or no.
Mr. Coleman. Can I answer it fully %
Mr. Clardy. Yes. Answer "yes" or "no" or if you think you have a
right, you may invoke any section of the constitution you believe
applicable.
Mr. Scherer. May I make a suggestion, Mr. Chairman ?
If he does answer "yes" or "no," I suggest we give him all day to
answer, or explain his answer.
Mr. Clardy. Certainly.
Mr. Scherer. You answer either "yes" or "no" to the question ; then
I suggest to the chairman that he give you all the time you want to
explain your answer.
Mr. Clardy. And you are given that privilege, sir.
Mr. Coleman. If you give me that privilege first, then
Mr. Clardy. Give us the answer, but we will not entertain any
harangue
Mr. Coleman. It is not any harangue.
Mr. Clardy. Without an answer.
Mr. Coleman. I will have to claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Very well.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of the fall issue of
the New Foundation and ask you to look at the back and see whether
or not there is a name appearing there under the membership of the
staff similar to your name.
Do you see the name of James A. Coleman there ?
Mr. Coleman. Yes ; I see James Coleman there.
Mr. Clardy. Are you reading it ?
Mr. Coleman. You mean reading James Coleman ?
Mr. Clardy. Are you reading what is there on the document?
Mr. Coleman. I see James Coleman there.
Mr. Clardy. All right; answer the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the staff at that time?
Mr. Coleman. I would like to invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Walter. Do you ?
You say, "I would like to." Do you ?
Mr. Coleman. When I say "I would like to," I mean I do.
Mr. Walter. Of course, I am perhaps a little bit more careful about
my English. There is a vast distinction.
48861 — 54— pt. 11 5
7130 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Coleman. Well, I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest, in view of the fact that
this witness is apparently possessed of considerable information in the
field that we are obliged to inquire into, that maybe this is the person
to use to test, for the first time, the immunity statute.
Mr. Clardy. I quite agree.
Mr. Walter. And I think we ought to pursue chat law to the utmost
because I particularly am interested in finding just how far this com-
mittee can go and how far it can't go in its responsibility.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, I think it is the judgment of the sub-
committee, and the Chair so instructs, that you forthwith invoke the
provisions of the immunity statute that deals with the subject and you
start the wheels in motion to bring before the Attorney General and
the other appropriate bodies the question of granting immunity so
that this witness may answer freely and without fear of prosecution
all of the questions we have thus far propounded and all that we will
propound hereafter, based upon the information already in the files of
the committee or which may come to its attention as the result of
further investigation.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Tavenner, I think, Mr. Chairman, did have a num-
ber of other questions he wanted to ask.
Mr. Clardy. Yes ; he does, but I think we will, in view of invoking
the immunity sections or starting the process, ask Mr. Tavenner to
dismiss this witness temporarily and ask him to step aside while the
proper steps are taken to invoke the immunity statute.
Mr. Coleman. May I ask a question of procedure ?
Mr. Clardy. Now, wait a minute. We are not talking to you.
This is a matter that is of no concern of yours at the moment.
Mr. Coleman. Well
Mr. Clardy. Just a minute, please. Am I going to have to have you
bodily ejected from the room because of your conduct ?
If you continue, that is what will happen to you.
Now, Mr. Tavenner, will you excuse the witness temporarily under
the provisions set forth and will you arrange to confer with him at a
suitable time when we are no longer in session and then to take the other
steps that are necessary, and call the next witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be
directed to return to the hearing room at 4 o'clock this afternoon.
Mr. Clardy. All right.. He is so directed.
Mr. Coleman. This room here ?
Mr. Clardy. The witness is excused until 4 o'clock this afternoon.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Baumkel.
Mr. Clardy. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I do.
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated. Will counsel identify himself
for the record ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7131
While we know you, I think it will have to be stated so it will be
in the record.
Mr. Wistrand. Bruce Wistrand.
Mr. Clardy. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MOLLY BATJMKEL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BRUCE WISTRAND
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please?
Mrs. Baumkel. My name is Molly Baumkel.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name, please?
Mrs. Baumkel. I would like to make a request.
I will spell my name afterward.
I have been here all morning, and as yet I haven't heard the pur-
poses of this committee at this time.
Mr. Clardy. Well, the purpose of the committee in subpenaing you
will, of course, be developed in the course of the hearing, but you have
also been advised unquestionably as to the general nature of the in-
vestigations conducted by the committee under the act, and there was
a statement made at the opening of the hearing by Chairman Velde
that explained it in detail.
So, you had at least three different sources.
The counsel for the committee will ask you questions that make
clear the particular application in your case.
Are you making a request with respect to the photographer?
Mrs. Baumkel. I haven't heard it. Perhaps I wasn't in the room
at the time.
Mr. Walter. Just pay attention, and you will learn as we go along.
It will take but a few minutes.
Mr. Clardy. I thought you were objecting to the photographer be-
cause I could hardly hear you. Your voice is rather low.
Mrs. Baumkel. I would appreciate — I don't mind being photo-
graphed, but I would appreciate not having pictures taken while I am
testifying, because it is annoying.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Where and when were you born ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Brooklyn, N. Y., August 25, 1929.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you married?
Mrs. Baumkel. I am.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your husband's name ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I would like to confer with counsel.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. Well, my husband's name is naturally Mr. Baumkel
as I am Mrs. Baumkel.
Mr. Tavenner. What is his first name?
Mrs. Baumkel. His name is Sherwood Baumkel.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you married ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I would like to confer with counsel.
7132 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I don't — upon advice from counsel, I don't see where
that question is pertinent to the subject.
Mr. Clardy. The Chair directs that you answer the question.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I still don't see where the question is pertinent to
the subject.
Mr. Clardy. Are you refusing to answer the question ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Yes. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. On what ground ?
Mrs. Baumkel. As it is not pertinent to the question at hand.
Mr. Clardy. Is that the only reason ?
Mr. Moulder. I understood the witness wasn't advised as to what
the issues are or the purpose for her being here.
Now you say you feel it is not pertinent.
Mrs. Baumkel. I was just handed a statement here, which I under-
stand
Mr. Clardy. Did you hear my last question?
Mrs. Baumkel. No. I would like to have you repeat that.
Mr. Clardy. I was asking you whether or not the grounds you just
stated are the only grounds on which you refuse to answer.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I feel that the question is not pertinent to this
investigation, and I don't feel, just as any other question that is not
pertinent to this investigation, that I am obliged to answer that.
Mr. Clardy. That doesn't answer the question. My question was
whether or not that ground which you have already stated was the
only ground, and I gather that it is.
Mrs. Baumkel. It is.
Mr. Clardy. You proceed at your own peril, if that is the only reason
you are refusing to answer.
Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you married ? What city or State %
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. Well, I feel that this question, too, is not pertinent
to the investigation, and I also wish to invoke the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Walter. I hope you weren't given that advice by the man who
apparently represents you, because, after all, it is not good advice.
Mr. Clardy. And you are directed to answer.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment, and it is not pertinent.
Mr. Moulder. There is a public record of your marriage?
Mrs. Baumkel. Yes.
Mr. Walter. Maybe that is the reason why she won't answer.
Mr. Moulder. And that marriage is public, where it is recorded;
isn't that so?
Mrs. Baumkel. Yes ; every marriage has to be recorded, I guess.
Mr. Scherer. Now, Mr. Tavenner, what does your information
show with reference to date and place of marriage ?
Mr. Tavenner. I haven't that information.
Mr. Scherer. Then I think the question is very pertinent.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7133
Mr. Tavenner. That is, I have not the information as to the correct
date or place of marriage.
Mr. Clardy. Do I understand, Witness, you are, despite my direc-
tion, refusing to answer that question ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Yes ; on the grounds of the fifth amendment, and
that that question is not pertinent to the investigation.
Mr. Clardy. The Chair is obliged to tell you that neither of those
grounds, in his opinion at least, is sound.
You invoke those improperly, in my judgment.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your name prior to marriage?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. My maiden name was Molly Schiff .
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the name, please ?
Mrs. Baumkel. The first and second ?
Mr. Tavenner. No ; the second.
Mrs. Baumkel. Second. S-c-h-i-f-f.
Mr. Tavenner. Is Molly a nickname or is it your actual name ?
Mrs. Baumkel. That is my actual name.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cational training has been ?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Tavenner. That is, your formal educational training.
( At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand. )
Mrs. Baumkel. Well, in view of the situation that this committee
has claimed that
Excuse me for one moment.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. In view of the situation that exists, that education
has been made a point of by this committee in trying to prove some
sort of conspiracy, with people with some sort of educational back-
ground, I fe'el that giving my educational background would tend to
incriminate me. Therefore, I will have to invoke the fifth amendment
and I feel that this question is not pertinent to this investigation.
Mr. Clardy. The Chair directs you to answer it.
Mrs. Baumkel. I have the same answer for that.
Mr. Clardy. What did you say ?
Mrs. Clardy. I said I have the same answer for that direction.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. Well, during the last investigation there were a
series of incidents, of violence, perpetrated in Flint, and I have three
small children at home, and I do not want to see anything happen
to my children or anything that would jeopardize my home.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, do you live in Flint?
Mrs. Baumkel. I live in Flint.
I would be willing to write my address down and hand it to the
committee, instead of stating it publicly.
Mr. Tavenner. You live in Flint?
Mrs. Baumkel. Yes ; I live in Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Flint?
Mrs. Baumkel. I feel that this is another question which, if I were
to answer it, that this committee would try to link me up with some
7134 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
kind of conspiracy which they are trying to prove, so-called con-
spiracy, which
Mr. Clardy. Do you mean to say if you tell us how long you have
lived in Flint that in some way would tend to incriminate you?
Mrs. Baumkel. Yes, sir. It seems this committee has made a point
of asking all the witnesses that have appeared before it during the
last hearing and this hearing how long they have lived in Flint, in
trying to prove they have lived here a certain length of time and have
come here at a certain time, and, therefore, they have assumed, because
they have lived here a certain length of time and they have come here
at a certain time, they would necessarily be involved in some sort of
conspiracy, which
Mr. Scherer. Were you a colonizer for the Communist Party at
any time ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I feel — I would be willing to discuss my political
opinions, my opinions on various questions, with this committee at any
other time
Mr. Scherer. I am not asking you about a political opinion. I am
just asking you if you were a colonizer for the Communist Party.
Mrs. Baumkel. I understand.
Mr. Scherer. You understand what a colonizer is ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I understand what this committee is trying to do.
Mr. Scherer. No. I am not asking you about what the committee
is trying to do.
You understand what a colonizer for the Communist Party is?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. You refuse to answer the question as to whether you
know what a colonizer is ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Yes; I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. Were you ever sent by the Communist Party from
any place in the United States to Flint for the purpose of obtaining
a job in one of the automotive industries there?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer on the ground of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Clardy. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I have the same answer for that question as the
previous answer.
Mr. Scherer. Where did you go to school ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I believe the counsel asked me that, or a similar
question.
Mr. Clardy. You believe what?
I can't hear you.
Mr. Scherer. Whether he asked you or not, I am asking you.
Mrs. Baumkel. And I feel there is an attempt being made to link
up the fact that people have an educational background with some
sort of conspiracy and I feel I cannot answer that question at this time
because it might incriminate me, and I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that she be directed to answer that.
Mr. Clardy. Yes. The Chair so directs.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7135
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I still refuse to answer that question because I feel
it is not pertinent to this investigation; and on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Where were you born, Madam ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I answered that question. I was born in Brooklyn,
N. Y., on August 25, 1929.
Mr. Scherer. And how long did you live in Brooklyn, N. Y. ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question because I feel it is
not pertinent and on the ground of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer that question.
Mrs. Baumkel. I still have the same answer. I don't feel it is
pertinent and
Mr. Scherer. Where did you live other than Brooklyn and Flint ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Well, again, I feel there is an attempt being made
to connect me with some kind of conspiracy and I feel that by answer-
ing this question I might incriminate myself and I will have to invoke
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that she be directed to answer the question.
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. I am sorry to be taking the ball from counsel so many
times with my questions. I apologize.
Mr. Tavenner. That is all right.
Mr. Clardy. I direct you to answer that question.
Mrs. Baumkel. Just a minute. I would like to confer with my
counsel if I may.
Mr. Clardy. You may.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it is not pertinent and on the ground of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that she be directed
Mr. Clardy. That was the direction.
Witness, you say you are apprehensive that answering the question
may be part of an attempt to link you up with some conspiracy.
So, I am going to ask you : Have you ever been part of some sort
of conspiracy?
Mrs. Baumkel. -Well, I wouldn't hesitate to answer that ques-
tion
Mr. Clardy. Well, then don't.
Mrs. Baumkel. At any other time, but because if I were to answer
this question at this time it would open me up to a whole series of ques-
tions and a further attempt of this committee to link me up with some
kind of conspiracy which I don't believe exists, and I cannot answer
that question.
Mr. Clardy. You say you would not hesitate to answer it at any
other time. Would you hesitate to answer it this afternoon ?
Mrs. Baumkel. No ; I mean another place, some public place, where
I would have an opportunity to state my views publicly.
Mr. Walter. In executive session — suppose we exclude everybody,
including your lawyer — would you sit here and tell us frankly what
we want to know? If we in addition to all that made you a promise
we would not make an attempt to cite you for contempt, would you
then sit down and tell us what we would like to know ?
7136 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. Baumkel. No, I could not discuss at this committee hearing
my views on anything, because I feel this committee has one purpose,
and that is to have me linked up with some sort of conspiracy, and
Mr. Walter. No. That isn't our purpose at all. We are trying to
perpetuate what we received so that your three little children will have
the same blessings of liberty when they grow up, and we are charged
with the responsibility of doing that by the Congress of the United
States.
It isn't this committee, I assure you. We don't like what we are
doing, but we are compelled to do it by the Congress of the United
States, by the people of the United States.
Now, you have said you don't want to discuss these matters in this
particular forum.
Why wouldn't you do it in the committee offices ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I am very concerned about the freedom of my chil-
dren and that is particularly one of the main reasons I refuse to coop-
erate in answering these questions. I want to see my kids grow up in a
country that is actually free and not hounded by smears and intimida-
tion, where people are afraid to express
Mr. Walter. Suppose we would release you from your oath ; sup-
pose that you would be permitted to testify not under oath and, instead
of having we old men to terrify you, would you give the story to one of
our investigators not under oath ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I think you are assuming that I have some
kind of information that you are looking for.
Mr. Walter. I am not assuming it. I have been informed that
you could aid the Congress of the United States immeasurably in its
duty.
I have that information, and I think, as a good American, you would
want to help us, or convince us whether or not our information con-
cerning your knowledge is correct.
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I feel I have been brought here not for any
information that this committee is really looking for, but as part of
a pattern to instill fear and intimidation and smear people. Then
anybody who speaks up on issues of peace, which I am very concerned
with, because I have three small children — I don't want to see them
growing up in a war-torn world.
Mr. Scherer. I have two, and I am just as concerned as you.
Mrs. Baumkel. And I am concerned about these things, and I feel
these committees, and this committee in particular, has played a large
part in instilling and putting fear in people's minds and making people
speak up on issues they feel very strongly on, and I cannot cooperate
with a committee that does things like this.
Mr. Clardy. Does that include a committee condemnation of the
aims of the Communist Party ?
Is that one of the things you think we are wrong in condemning?
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, that is an opinion which I would be glad to
discuss with you, but it is not a question pertinent to this investigation
and I cannot answer that at this time.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that she be directed to answer the question.
Mr. Clardy. Are you actually a part of any group dedicated to the
overthrow of the Government of the United States through the use
of force and violence ?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7137
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I am against the forceful overthrow of this
Government, and if I should ever find anybody who would commit
any act toward the overthrow of this Government, I would be the first
one to report that.
I believe in democracy.
Mr. Clardy. That isn't my question. My question is: Are you a
member of a group whose avowed purpose is the overthrow of this
Government through the use of force and violence?
You have stated your own personal slant. I am asking you about
the group.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. You what?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you live immediately prior to your taking
up residence in Flint, Mich. ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I believe I answered that question before, and I
said I did not feel the question was pertinent and I invoked the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer that question.
Mrs. Baumkel. I still maintain the same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time live in the city of Detroit?
Mrs. Baumkel. I believe that this committee again — this question
again is trying to link me up with this so-called conspiracy and I
cannot answer that because I feel it is not pertinent and I invoke the
grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Walter. I am afraid you are under a misapprehension. We
are not trying to link you up with anything.
What we want you to tell us is what you know about the thing you
are afraid of being linked up with.
Mr. Clardy. What is it you are afraid of?
Mrs. Baumkel. This morning when you questioned Mr. Carter,
there was a statement made that you knew of 27 so-called Communists
or conspirators.
Mr. Clardy. No ; we said 27 had been identified.
Mrs. Baumkel. Well, I supposedly was 1 of those identified by 1
of your paid informers, and I cannot answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. Now, Witness, let me question you. We do not have
any paid informers, and you know that is the case.
Mrs. Baumkel. I understand
Mr. Clardy. Who is engaged in smearing tactics, now, if you aren't,
when you are saying that ?
That is a deliberate attempt, and you know it, and I cannot let it
pass unchallenged.
Mr. Scherer. You said you were identified, as you put it, by a
paid informer. Is this informer's identification of you correct or in-
correct ?
Was he telling the truth or was he telling a lie when he identified
you at the hearings in Michigan ?
Now, you have an opportunity to deny it, if you wish.
7138 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Fifth amendment.
So, the fact is that man you just smeared by calling him a paid in-
former was telling the truth about you ; wasn't he?
Mrs. Baumkel. I believe this committee has drawn its opinions al-
ready, because
Mr. Scherer. Wasn't he telling the truth?
Mrs. Baumkel. I cannot answer that question. I will have to in-
voke the fifth amendment to a question like that.
Mr. Scherer. Now. you have invoked the fifth amendment to prac-
tically all the questions that have been asked of you, Witness, which
means that you are afraid if }rou do answer you may be subject to
some prosecution.
Now, Mr. Walter has brought to our attention the fact that the
Congress, this Congress, shortly before they adjourned, passed what
is known as the immunity law, which gives this committee, with the
approval of the Federal court, the right to grant you immunity — in
other words, so that you couldn't be prosecuted for answers you might
give to any questions we might ask.
I want to ask you this : If this committee should grant you such
immunity, would you then answer that question?
Mrs. Baumkel. I am sorry, but I could never be an informer, and
say things. What I do know and don't know, I could not under any
circumstances cooperate with the committee, as I said before, which I
feel seeks to smear people for their opinions that they hold.
Mr. Scherer. Even if this committee would free you from any pos-
sible prosecution for any answer you would give, you are still telling
us, even if it would do that, you won't answer our questions?
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I am very concerned about my children.
Mr. Scherer. I understand that.
(Representative Walter left the hearing at this point.)
Mrs. Baumkel. But I could not cooperate in tearing down our
Constitution, which I feel this immunity business would do.
Mr. Scherer. Even if you were free from any prosecution whatso-
ever, so you couldn't go to jail, would you still refuse to answer the
committee's questions?
Mrs. Baumkel. That is the opinion — I don't know your name.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Scherer.
Mrs. Baumkel. That is not my opinion.
Mr. Scherer. I am saying the law is such that we can, with the
approval of the Federal court, grant you immunity, so you couldn't
go to jail, so you wouldn't be prosecuted for anything you tell us.
Now, my simple question is: If that immunity was granted to you,
would you then answer our questions?
Mrs." Baumkel. First of all, I don't recognize that immunity law
that was passed. I recognize the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.
I still recognize the fifth amendment and I shall uphold it as long
as I can breathe.
Mr. Scherer. You still haven't answered my question ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I believe that is answering the question that under
any circumstances I will still uphold the Constitution of the United
States and
Mr. Scherer. And you still refuse to answer to this Congress?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7139
Mrs. Baumkel. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. It is obvious, therefore, Air. Chairman, the witness
has improperly invoked the fifth amendment because she said the only
reason she is refusing to answer these questions is because of the fear
of incrimination or prosecution, and now she says even if she could
be free of such prosecution she would still not cooperate with the
committee, and I think she is clearly in contempt.
Mr. Clardt. She has been from the beginning, but I have got to ask
her another question.
Who is this gentleman that you say has identified you as one of
the Communists ?
Do you know him ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I believe the chairman knows very well the
informers they have used to identify— — ■
Mr. Clardy. Well, do you know him \
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct her to answer the question
who it was.
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer that question.
Mrs. Baumkel. I don't think I have said anything about a man
or a woman. The gentleman said "him." I haven't identified any-
bodv or referred to anybody as a him or her.
Mr. Clardy. Well, I think you did, but I will get away from the
sex and ask you if you know the identity of the person who has
named vou as one of the Communist colonizers.
Now' vou don't have to name him or her. I am merely asking :
Do you know that person ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I wouldn't identify myself with any informer
under any circumstances.
Mr. Clardy. I am not asking you to identify him.
Mrs. Baumkel. And I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that she be directed to answer the question.
Mr. Clardy. Yes. I direct you to answer that question.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkei conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I read in the newspaper and I heard myself
identified by the informer who testified.
Mr. Clardy. Now, do you personally know that individual ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask you : What is an informer, Mrs. Baumkel ?
How do you refer to a person as an informer?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I have my opinions on what an informer is, and
I think the gentlemen would have gotten some idea on what I think of
an informer.
However, I feel at this time this question is not pertinent, and I
cannot answer it at this time.
Mr. Moulder. You have used that word several times.
Mr. Clardy. Let me direct her, Mr. Moulder. That is one I think
she has opened the door wide open on and she must answer. So, T
direct you to answer.
(At "this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
7140 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. Now you have used that voluntarily and repeatedly,,
and you are merely being asked to define the term that you used. 1 am
directing you to do so.
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it is
not pertinent and on the ground of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. I think you are clearly in contempt of your Congress
on making that answer to that question, if on no other, after having
repeatedly invoked it.
I will ask you this : By informer do you mean a person who advises
his Government as to the^identity of Communists in the United States?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I think there is a standard definition for the
word "informer'' in Webster's Dictionary or any other dictionary, and
I don't think this committee is testing my knowledge on meaning of
words, and I don't think it is pertinent to this investigation.
Mr. Clardy. I asked a specific question which any good, honest,
patriotic American citizen ought to be proud to answer, and that is :
Do you regard a person as an informer who tells his government about
the activities or the identity of someone who may be a member of the
Communist Party ?
Now, will you answer that question ?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman, I move a recess until 2 o'clock.
Mr. Clardy. Let's finish this witness within the next 5 minutes.
I agree with you.
Mr. Tavenner. If I am going to examine her, it will take more than
5 minutes.
Mr. Clardy. Are you ready to answer ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I believe the definition of this word, "informer"
again can be gotten in any dictionary and I don't think it is pertinent
to the investigation.
Mr. Clardy. I didn't ask you that at all.
Mrs. Baumkel. And it is not up to me at all to define
Mr. Clardy. I didn't ask you that, and you know I didn't ask you
that. I used the word "Communist" and you didn't like it, and you
are evading it.
So, we will let the matter pass. It is obvious that anybody who, as
far as you are concerned, who at any time lets his government know
anything at all about the most gigantic conspiracy on the face of this
globe is in your judgment an informer, and I don't like your attitude
with respect to it, and I must tell you I think you are in contempt of
your Congress and that you are taking a position that is utterly
indefensible.
Now do you have any more questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Well, we will proceed to half past, and then we will
recess.
Mr. Tavenner. Am I correct in stating that you are now employed
by the AC Spark Plug Division of General Motors?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so employed?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7141
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question because I feel again
that question of the length of time, of how long I have worked in a
certain place, or how long I have been here or where I came from,
and so forth, is again trying to link me up with some sort of con-
spiracy, and I feel it is not pertinent and I refuse to answer it on the
grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardt. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you make application for employment, written
application for employment, with AC Spark Plug ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic
Mr. Clardy. Just a minute. I direct that she answer that last
question.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question as I feel it is the
same kind of a question in different words of a pattern that this
committee has in trying to link me up with some kind of conspiracy.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of an application for
employment.
Will you look at the signature on the second page and state whether
or not it is your signature ?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. This is your evidence, and this may and it may
not be an actual document. I don't know, and I refuse to answer that
question.
Mr. Clardy. I want to direct her to inspect the document in answer
to that question, and I tell you now if you refuse to answer that, there
can be no question whatsoever as to whether or not you are in con-
tempt of this committee and the Congress.
Look at that document carefully, and then tell us whether or not
that is an accurate reproduction of your signature.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I would like to know if you have the original
records, the original copy.
Mr. Clardy. "That is a photostatic copy of the original, and if you
will look at it — you were not looking at it before I directed you to
answer.
You were looking at me and everyone else except the clocmnent and
that is why I emphasized the fact I wanted you to look at it.
Now you are looking at it. I assure you it is a photostatic copy.
Now, weigh well your answer.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I cannot answer that question because, first of
all, this is a photostat ; second of all, there is an erasure on the line
indicated for the signature, and I feel it is not pertinent, and I invoke
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Is your name written out on that document, regardless
of whether you wrote it or not, as reproduced there ?
Is it spelled out correctly?
Mrs. Baumkel. Well, I believe the signature on this document
speaks for itself.
Mr. Clardy. Spell it out. Read it, letter by letter.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
7142 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
.Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, this is your document and
Mr. Clardy. Will you read it, please ?
I am directing you to do so.
Mrs. Baumkel. And as I stated, there is an erasure here. And I
don't know whether this is a valid document or not, and I refuse to
answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. You refuse to read your own name on the document in
front of you; is that what 37ou are saying?
(At this point, Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I don't know if this is my name or not. I refuse to
answer that question. I refuse to recognize the document.
Mr. Clardy. What is your name ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I stated my name when I identified myself.
Mr. Clardy. Tell me now.
Mrs. Baumkel. My name is Molly Baumkel.
Mr. Clardy. Are those the words written on the document?
Mrs. Baumkel. Well, sir, this is your document
Mr. Clardy. Never mind whose document it is. It is an accurate
reproduction, photographically made. Are those the words written
at the place calling for a signature?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. Could you please repeat your last question?
Mr. Clardy. You told me your name. I am asking you if the name
that you pronounced for me is not the name written out on the
document.
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, again I don't know whether this is an actual
reproduction
Mr. Clardy. I don't care whether it is or not. I am asking you to
look at it.
Mrs. Baumkel. And since it is not my document, I don't know. It
is your evidence, and if you would like to read it, I can't stop you.
Mr. Clardy. You are refusing to read it at my direction then ; is
that right?
(At this point, Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. Yes; I cannot answer that question. I cannot
answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. We will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:34 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to recon-
vene at 2 p. m. of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 2 : 19 p. m. of the same clay the hearing was re-
sumed, the following committee members being present: Representa-
tives Kit Clardy (presiding), Gordon H. Scherer, and Francis E.
Walter. Appearances noted in transcript.)
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session.
Let the record show that the chairman has appointed a subcom-
mittee consisting of Congressman Scherer, Congressman Walter, and
myself.
Congressman Walter will be here as soon as the conference he is
engaged in will permit him to be present.
Congressman Scherer and myself constituting a majority of the
subcommittee, are here and now ready to resume.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7143
Call your witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Baumkel, will you return to the witness
stand, please?
Mr. Chairman, I desire to offer in evidence the photostatic copy of
the application over the name of Mary Baumkel and ask that it be
marked "Baumkel Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Clakdy. It will be received. Baumkel Exhibit No. I.1
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MOLLY BAUMKEL, ACCOMPANIED BY HER
COUNSEL, BRUCE WISTRAND— Resumed
Mr. Tavennek. Mrs. Baumkel, I note with regard to the questions
asked on the application regarding education that the grade school
was given as 8 years in New York City between 1935 and 1943. T«
that a correct statement of your grade-school education ?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I would like to confer with my lawyer.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with counsel, Mr. Wis-'-
trand.)
(At this point Representative Walter entered the hearing roonO
Mr. Tavenner. All right, if you will proceed, please.
Mr. Clardt. Before she answers, may the record show that Con-
gressman Walter has now entered the hearing room, making a full
subcommittee ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I would like to make a request. I would Ul™
to know which party the Congressmen belong to, as I believe thero
has to be a representative of each party.
Mr. Clardy. That is actually none of your business, but I don;t
mind telling you
Mr. Walter. I am embarrassed terribly. I thought everybody
knew my party.
Mr. Clardy. He can speak for himself, but he will be the chairman
of the entire committee when the 84th Congress is sworn in.
Up to this writing, shall I say, unless he voluntarily relinquishes
the post under the rules that pertain, he will be the new chairman;
but it is really none of your business.
We have a right to set this up as we please, and I think you are im-
pertinent in suggesting that, and that you were deliberately doing so
as part of your calculated campaign of contempt.
Now, will you proceed, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please ?
]\lrs. Baumkel. Could you repeat that question again ?
Mr. Tavenner. The application for employment to AC Spark Plug
shows under education, grade school, 8 years at New York, 1935-1943.
Is that a correct statement of your grade-school work?
(At this point, Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand, her
counsel.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground
of the fifth amendment, that it is not pertinent to the investigation.
Mr, Tavenner. I ask that the witness be directed to answer.
Mr. Clardy. Yes ; you are directed to answer.
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse for the same reasons.
1 Retained in the flies of the committee.
7144 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. The application also shows that you were gradu-
ated from high school with 4 years of work at Detroit, 1943-47. Is
that a correct statement of the number of years and the place in which
you took your high-school training?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. TVistrand, her
counsel.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I have the same answer for that question as the pre-
vious question.
Mr. Clardt. You are directed to answer that question.
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer the question for the same reasons
I stated previously.
Mr. Clardy. Have you consulted with your attorney in refusing to
answer these last two questions ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I consulted with my attorney on the question.
Mr. Clardy. I want it to show clearly in the record that you have. I
want no possibility of any question being raised of any defense later.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. There is nothing filled in on the form to show that
you had any years of college.
Was the absence of such information a correct indication of the
absence of college work on your part ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I feel that this is another question intended to link
me up with the so-called intellectual college graduates that there were
supposed to be in the previous hearings that were formed to colonize
the industries.
I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Clardy. Just a moment. You are directed to answer that
question.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand, her coun-
sel.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Now, there is nothing so-called — you have used that
phrase repeatedly — that colonizers were identified by more than one
person.
You have talked about so-called intellectuals. Perhaps you are
right there. Some of them are parading as intellectuals when they
probably aren't.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Under the heading of "Record of Previous Em-
ployment'' there appears the name of Nate's Outlet — N-a-t-e-'-s —
Fenkell & Linemair, Detroit, 1947-49.
In what type of business was Nate's Outlet engaged?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, did you at any time work at
Nate's Outlet in Detroit?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time attend school in the city of
Detroit?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7145
Mr. Tavexxer. Are you acquainted with a person by the name of
Robert Gould— G-o-u-l-d ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I believe I stated previously I do not intend
to answer any questions about any associations and thoughts on
things I read or do not read to this committee or any other committee.
That is my own private business and I refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavexner. Robert Gould was given as the name of one of
your references on the application of employment at AC Spark Plug.
Do you know him ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Again I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds of the fifth amendment.
5 Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer that question.
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason
Mr. Tavenxer. Another name given on your list of references is
Al Millstein — M-i-1-l-s-t-e-i-n — 7531 MacKenzie, Detroit.
Were you acquainted with All Millstein ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Again I refuse to answer any questions about any
persons I may or may not know.
I refuse on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. You are specifically refusing to answer the question
about Millstein?
Mrs. Baumkel. That's right.
Mr. Clardy. Well, I direct you to answer that.
Mrs. Baumkel. Well, I again have to refuse for the same reasons
stated.
Mr. Tavexxer. Are you acquainted with a person by the name of
Mrs. Beatrice Churchill?
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I refuse to degrade myself by answering a
question about that informer. I refuse to answer that question on
the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, you have used that term again.
In what sense are you using it in speaking of Beatrice Churchill ?
Mrs. Baumkel. In the sense that Webster's Dictionary describes
it as.
Mr. Clardy. We don't have Webster's Dictionary in front of us.
Suppose you tell us what you mean.
Mrs. Baumkel. Well, I understand what I mean, and I believe the
committee can find out if they look in the dictionary.
Mr. Clardy. Well, the committee is entitled to know what you
have in mind, because Beatrice Churchill sacrificed a great number of
years of her life doing an efficient, effective job for her Government
in helping to root out subversives in the nature of Communists and
communism, and it appalls me to find that you would have the
audacity to sit there and stamp such a person with the adjective you
have applied.
Now I want to know just how harsh you are in your judgment of
that kind of woman.
What do vou mean bv informer in her case ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to discuss the question. I think it is per-
fectly clear what I mean by my answer.
Mr. Clardy. No; it isn't perfectly clear, and you know it isn't
clear.
7146 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Since you have chosen voluntarily to use it, I direct that you explain
your answer and tell us what you mean.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand, her
attorney. )
Mr. Clardy. I am getting just a little bit tired of people who are
forever prating about this committee smearing someone, and you are
engaging in (lie worst kind of smear that I have ever heard.
Now. I want you to tell us precisely what you mean, because I intend
to find out the basis upon which you have smeared her.
Now. suppose you define that term.
Mrs. Baumkel. A\ nen I speak of an informer, I mean the very com-
monly accepted meaning of that term.
Mr. Clardt. What is that \
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand, her
counsel.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I don't think I have to answer that question.
Mr. Walter. Maybe I can throAv a little light on that. You mean
by that she told on you regarding something illegal that you did;
isn't that what you mean?
Mrs. Baumkel. I didn't state that anyone told on me or said any-
thing about me.
Mr. ( 'lard v. Then you don't know anything about her, do you ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer any questions about this partic-
ular individual.
Mr. Clardy. You are perfectly willing to lash out with a smear
tirade against her, but you are unwilling to answer any questions
whatsoever about your knowledge of her or acquaintance with her.
or whether or not she knew something that you had done that was of
a criminal nature ; is that what you mean ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I think you are inferring certain things, and
you have no right to infer things about me.
Mr. ('lardy. I will tell you what I am not inferring. I am saying
directly you have been identified as having been tied up with the Com-
munist conspiracy, and if you mean by an informer that she has
informed her Government of your connection with that unlawful con-
spiracy, then I accept that as the definition, and I am glad she chose
to do so.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Mrs. Beatrice Churchill employed in AC
Spark Plug in the same unit or group that you were employed in ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party cell or
group at, within AC Spark Plug?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Churchill, who has been indicated to have
been a person who spent a number of years in the Communist Party,
testified wry fully before this committee in Flint.
She was also one of the witnesses in the Smith Act case in Detroit,
:il which time William Allan, Nat Ganley, Helen Allison Winter.
and others were convicted.
She told the committee of the circumstances under which the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation had come to her and requested that she
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7147
enter the Communist Party in order that it may find out what was
being done in the Communist Party and Mrs. Churchill gave us the
benefit of her information regarding the use of colonizers by the
Communist Party in Flint.
I want to read you a very short paragraph of her testimony:
Question. Will you tell the committee a little more about the practice of
utilizing these colonizers?
When they came, did they immediately take up a position or become active in
the Communist Party, or how was that worked out?
Mrs. Churchill. Well, of course, when they first came' into Flint, they were
secured until they got jobs in industrial plants.
Qtestiox. What do you mean by "secured"?
Mrs. Cht'RCHill. They were not even known to most members in the Com-
munist Party because this is top security, we might say, and they received or
they got into the industrial plants, and until they received their seniority a lot
of the members didn't know who these people were, and after they received their
seniority, then they became active — the first thing, of course, in the unions — and
then they joined the various Communist clubs that were attached to the various
industries, and from then on, of course, that was what they were supposed to do;
but in relation to our local we had one girl that went into activity before she
actually knew too much about the local, and the first meeting that she attended
she stamped herself as a Communist because she came in and she attacked the
union in relation to the Negro people, and I know conditions are not good as far
as the Negro people are in probably most of the unions, but I know that we try
and I know that these conditions have to be changed, but you don't come in and
attack your union on something like that they are trying to correct, that we
never do anything, that we don't have Negro-this and Negro officers because we
have had Negro officers in our local.
And the next morning, after she came in, or was to this union meeting, one of
the committeewomen approached me and said, "I see you have a new fellow
traveler, a new member." I said, '"What do you mean by that?"
She said, "Who is this Communist that was in the meeting yesterday, this red-
headed girl?"
And I said. "I don't know anything about her. I don't know if she is a Com-
munist or not."
I did know, but I wasn't giving her any information. I was a Communist
then.
She said, "Well, she is a Communist. We know she is, and we almost threw
her out yesterday."
And that was the first meeting she had attended.
Question. Who was the individual?
Mrs. Churchill. I haven't given you their names yet, but it is Gerald and
Marilyn Baumkel. I believe it is spelled, B-a-u-m-k-e-1.
Will you tell the committee, please, whether there is any statement
in that testimony which I have read to you which is not true '.
(At this point, Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand, her
counsel.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I'd like to say this : That I feel very strongly about
the whole question of religious and racial discrimination, particularly
in regard to the Negro people in this country, and
Mr. Walter. You ought to read the testimony of Jackie Robinson
before this committee; and if every Negro did, all of these phony
professionals would have to look for another job because they wouldn't
be living the soft lives they are living now from#the earnings of hard
working people.
Mrs. Baumkel. I don't claim to be any kind of professional on
anything. I try to be a very sincere person about the tilings that I
believe in.
Mr. Walter. I am sure of that.
Mrs. Baumkel. And I like to say the tilings that are on my mind
and stand up for the things that I think are right.
7148 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
I believe that this committee, instead of spending the taxpayers'
money in investigating people like myself, who have never done any-
thing wrong, who have never committed any crime, that they would
better spend the taxpayers' money in investigating how to rid some of
the bad things that exist in this country, such as discrimination against
Negro people, discrimination against certain minorities.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you think communism ought to be investigated?
Mr. Clardy. Pardon me, Mr. Tavenner. I want to ask her a ques-
tion.
Mr. Scherer. No. There is a question before us, which is very
important, and that is: Is any part of the testimony of Churchill
true ?
I ask she be directed to answer.
Mr. Clardy. That is right. She didn't answer it. I beg your
pardon.
Will you answer it ?
Mrs. Baumkel. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. I will ask you this : Are you now or have you ever
been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. I anticipated that. Do you include the Communist
Party as one of the organizations you think you have a right to defend ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I don't think I have to answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. I suggest you do if I ask you.
Is that within the definition that you just gave us of your freedom
and right to defend ideas and persons and organizations ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I think I am being a little misquoted and misstated.
Mr. Clardy. Have I misunderstood you?
Mrs. Baumkel. "Well, I can't say whether you misunderstood me
or understood me, but I refuse to answer your question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Let's put it this way — I will withdraw it and put it
this way : Are you of the opinion that the things that the Communist
Party stands for are good for America ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. I thought so. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. You pointed out a number of things,
or rather you said the committee should be investigating a number of
things. Do you think they should investigate communism?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. There was another witness who appeared before
the committee, who was asked questions about the practice of bringing
in colonizers into industry in the Flint and Detroit areas, and that
witness gave us information regarding a number of individuals who
had come in under that category, and described some of the devices
resorted to by those persons to conceal the true nature of their pre-
vious employment and educational training in order that they might
be able to hide their identity when they came in.
That witness told the committee that these individuals were in-
structed to give misleading information to their employers. In the
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7149
course of this witness' description of individuals connected with that
practice this was said :
There was one husband -and-wife team by the name of Sherwood, alias Jerry,
and Marilyn — M-a-r-i-1-y-n — alias Molly Baumkel.
Sherwood, alias Jerry Baumkel, had not been employed as far as my knowledge
is concerned, in any industry. I do not know his educational background, but I
do not think he completed college.
Sherwood had many opportunities to work in New York near his family, more
so than the average Communist. He is a personable-looking young man and
could have gone far had he stayed in New York. He brought with him his wife,
Molly, who had attended Hunter College in New York. I do not know if she
graduated, but I think she did.
Is there any statement regarding that testimony which is untrue?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand, her
counsel. )
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Tavenner, what college was that the witness re-
ferred to ?
Mr. Tavenner. Hunter College.
Mrs. Baumkel. I will say this : My husband was unfortunate enough
when we got married to be one of those unemployed, and like millions
of others, he was seeking employment. When we came to Flint, we
came — he came to Flint looking for a job, just like many thousands
of others who recently came to Flint.
I feel that — excuse me.
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand, her
counsel.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I feel that this question again is intended to tie
me up with some kind of conspiracy and I can't answer that question.
I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Of course, if you haven't been tied up with the con-
spiracy, an honest answer saying that you have not could not pos-
sibly incriminate you. I hope you understand that. Perhaps you do
not.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated in reply to my question that "We came
from New York," and notwithstanding that, you put in your applica-
tion that you came there from Detroit and that you had been em-
ployed in Detroit from 1947 to 1949, which was untrue according to
your present statement ; wasn't it?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand, her
counsel.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Pardon me just a minute. Which time were you tell-
ing the truth ; now or when you filed that application ?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrand, her
counsel.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I don't believe I have to answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. Were you telling the truth either time ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I don't think I have to answer that question either.
Mr. Scherer. I ask you direct her, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Yes. I direct her to answer both of those questions.
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. I direct that you answer both his question and mine and
you refuse to answer them ?
7150 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. Baumkel. Yes, and also on the grounds that these questions I
are not pertinent.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Didn't you resort to the device of putting misleading!
information about your prior place of residence and employment on
this application in order to deceive your employer so that your real
background and experience in New York City could not be checked ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Your application shows that you were employed for
1 month in 194!) at Uncle Bob's Diner, Harrison Street, Flint.
The month of the beginning of your employement is July and the
month of termination's August. You were in Flint during that
period, weren't you, August and September 1949?
(At this point Mrs. Baumkel conferred with Mr. Wistrancl, her
counsel.)
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question because the ques-
tion assumes facts that haven't been proven in that application. I
refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Tavenner. I am asking you to state the fact. Were you in
Flint in August and September 1949 ?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee heard considerable evidence in De-
troit and in Flint about the holding of a meeting of the Young Com-
munist Group of the Communist Party in September 1949.
The purpose of this meeting of the Young Communist Group of the
Communist Party, according to the testimony, was to order that it be
disbanded and that the members be sent out into various groups in the
community for the purpose of infiltration of those groups.
Some of the persons present were the leaders in the Young Commu-
nist Group, the Communist Party, such as Bolza Baxter, and this wit-
ness testified regarding that meeting in the following manner :
This question was asked :
Let us so back to this point in the meeting, the Communist Party meeting in
September 1949, which you were describing.
That is the meeting at which it was decided to disband the Young Communist
Group of the Communist Party and assign individuals to various organizations.
Now, the place of that meeting was a farmhouse near Lapeer— L-a-p-e-e-r —
which is just outside of Flint, Mich.
And then this question was asked : "Will you tell the committee,
please, who was present at this meeting, as far as you can recall ?"
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer that question
Mr. Tavenner. Wait a minute.
Mrs. Baumkel. On the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. You haven't even waited until I asked the question.
The witness testified that Bolza Baxter, who was assigned to the
Labor Youth League as its chairman, was there; Louis Baxter;
William Van der Does; Howard Falk— F-a-l-k— ; Paul Simon; Jacob
Moscow ; Marilyn, alias Molly, Baumkel ; her husband, Sherwood, or
Jerry ; Ted Karpez ; Jimmie "Zrischny— Z-r-i-s-c-h-n-y.
Now, were you present at such a meeting of the Young Communist
Group of the Communist Party ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7151
Mrs. Baumkel. I want to make it clear — I think I have made it
clear — that I will not answer any question about any thought I have
in my mind; any associations that I may have or may not have about
any particular individual or anything that I read or don't read.
I think that is my own private concern. That's guaranteed me
by the Constitution, by the Bill of Rights; and I refuse to answer that
question, just as I have every other question of that nature, on the
grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. You refuse to state whether you attended that
particular Communist Party meeting or not?
Mrs. Baumkel. I refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Scherer. Mr. Walter. Witness excused.
We will now take a 5-minute recess.
(Thereupon, at 3:35 p. m., an 11-minute recess was taken, follow-
ing which there were present: Representatives Kit Clardy (presid-
ing) and Francis E. Walter.)
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session. Call your next
witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. James A. L. Coleman, come back, please.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES A. L. COLEMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, BRUCE WISTRAND— Resumed
Mr. Tavenner. You are the same Mr. Coleman who was excused,
to return at 4 o'clock this afternoon, are you not?
Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you have counsel with you.
Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record.
Mr. Wistrand. Bruce Wistrand.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce in evidence
a photostatic copy of the fall 1949 issue of New Foundations, which
was exhibited to the witness before he left the stand.
Mr. Clardy. It will be marked as "Coleman Exhibit No. 1." x
Mr. Tavenner. I now desire to hand to the witness the summer
1949 copy of New Foundations, and ask him to read into the record
the footnote appearing at the bottom of the first page.
(At this point Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you read it into the record, please ?
Mr. Coleman. I will. I mean I will answer your question in a
minute.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. I would rather not have anything to do with reading
any statement like this.
You see, I could be handed any kind of photostat or any kind of
original statement to read something that might say I am a so-and-so;
I, James Coleman, am a so-and-so.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, to shorten the matter, I desire to
offer the document in evidence, photostatic copy of the summer issue
of New Foundations and ask that it be marked "Coleman Exhibit
No. 2."
1 Retained in the tiles of the committee.
7152 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. It will be received as Coleman exhibit No. 2.1
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to read into evidence the footnote printed
on the bottom of page 235 :
Mr. Coleman, a veteran, left Howard University in December 1948 to study
Marxism at the Jefferson School preparatory to working in the South. He is
social-science editor of the New Foundations.
This appears as a footnote to an article regarding the trial of the
11 in New York by Judge Medina, and the name James Coleman ap-
pears in print at the top of the article.
Now, Mr. Coleman, did you write the article yourself? Did you
compose the article that appears under your name?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Tavenner. It is entitled "Twelve Times Twelve Million."
(At this point Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. Mr. Tavenner, as a matter of principle, I want to
invoke the first amendment on the article that I wrote, might have
wrote, or any article that is connected with the freedom of the right
to speak your mind and to express your opinion, whether it differs
with anyone else's or not.
I want to also invoke the fifth amendment on that question because
the purpose of asking that question is to try to link me with some
kind of a crime.
Mr. Clardy. The Chair directs that you answer the question.
I am specifically directing you to answer the question as a necessary
statutory preliminary in the matter of seeking immunity so that you
may be compelled to answer at a later time.
(At this point Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. The question is impertinent, No. 1.
No. 2, I invoke the first amendment, which gives me the freedom
of expression, or association with anyone I want as long as I have
not committed a crime.
I invoke a principle that this committee is haranguing — I mean
harassing me for not having done a crime but for having a different
opinion, and I invoke the fifth amendment in order to protect myself
by being jailed by this committee and being intimidated.
Mr. Clardy. Let us proceed to make the record, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state whether or not the footnote to the
editorial, appearing at the bottom, as to your having left Howard
University in December 1948 to study Marxism at the Jefferson School.
and that you are social science editor of New Foundations, is cor-
rect or is it false?
( At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand. )
Mr. Coleman. I refuse to answer that question because it is an in-
vasion of mjr rights to associate, assemble, or do anything as far as
freedom of expression is concerned, that as long as it does not — as
long as I am not committing a crime.
I also invoke the fifth amendment on that question in refusing to
answer it.
Mr. Clardy. I direct that you answer that question in conformity
with the provisions of the act of Congress dealing with grants of
immunity.
1 Retained in the files of the committee.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7153
Mr. Coleman. Since, if I have not committed any crime, which I
have I should and would be jailed a long time ago, I invoke the iifth
amendment in refusing to answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed. Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Coleman, how are you now employed ?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wis! rand.)
Mr. Coleman. To answer the question as to how I am employed
would be in line with the questions that you asked in line with the
intent of this committee to show that there is some kind of a con-
spiracy to overthrow the Government and link me in with it.
So 1 therefore invoked the fifth amendment in refusing to answer
that question.
Mr. Clardy. Again, in order to conform with the provisions of the
recently enacted immunity statute, I direct that you answer that
question.
Let him state his position.
Mr. Coleman. I invoke the fifth amendment in refusing to answer
the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you file a written application for employment
with Buick plant in Flint, Mich., in October 1950?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. Since it is a matter of record that this committee in-
cited violence in the shops by raising a question or raising or pre-
tending that there was a conspiracy in the automobile plants, and
thereby causing quite a bit of bodily harm being done which was sanc-
tioned by one of the representatives particularly of this committee, I
do not think that I would want to answer that question for that reason,
and besides, I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. I again direct that that question be answered.
Mr. Coleman. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you reside at 1814 Jasmine Street, Flint, Mich.,
in October 1950?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. Whether I resided anywhere is all a part of the
same pattern in Flint. I therefore invoke the fifth amendment,
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of an application for
employment at Buick, Flint, Mich., bearing the date October 6, 1950.
Will you look at the signature to the application, please, and state
whether or not it is your signature which has been reproduced there?
Mr. Coleman. You mean at the bottom here ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
( At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand. )
Mr. Coleman. I regard that question as intending to incriminate
me and I therefore invoke the fifth amendment in refusing to answer
the question.
Mr. Clardy. I direct that you answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. I invoke the fifth amendment in declining to answer
the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, it is desired to offer the document
in evidence, and I ask that it be marked "Coleman Exhibit No. 3."
7154 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN"
Mr. Clardy. It will be received as Coleman exhibit No. 3.1
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I desire to read the signature into
evidence. It appears at the bottom of the document marked as "Cole-
man Exhibit No. 3." The name is James A. L. Coleman.
Mr. Coleman, an examination of this application for employment
shows that you were in the United States Army from 1942 to 1946,
where you served as a postal and stock clerk, and that you received an
honorable discharge ; is that correct ?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. The document has already been put into evidence
as exhibit No. 3 and I am not prepared to verify anything, or give
any kind of support to what is in that document, knowing nothing
about it any more than that you claim that it is a photostatic copy,
and I invoke the fifth amendment also.
Mr. Clardy. The Chair directs that you answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. I refuse to answer the question for the reason I just
stated and because of my rights under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. You did testify earlier in the hearing that you were
in the United States Army and came out in 1946: did you not?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. Repeat that question, please.
Mr. Tavenner. It is true, is it not, that you testified in the earlier
part of this hearing that you were in the armed services and you got
out in 1946 and went straight to Philadelphia after getting out of the
service ?
Mr. Coleman. If I stated that, I would like to have it read from
the record.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall having stated that ?
I am asking you about your present recollection as to whether you
recall having stated it.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer entered the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Coleman. I do not recall exactly what I said and I would like
to have it
Mr. Clardy. Isn't it a fact that, as Mr. Tavenner recited it, the
event took place ?
You must know your record of your going in and out of the Army.
You did testify and I heard it this morning, and I recollect it and I
do not like to have you trifle with the committee this way.
Mr. Coleman. I am not trifling. You are trifling with my working
time.
Mr. Clardy. Be still for a moment.
Let me see what your recollection of this morning is. If your
recollection now of the facts as stated by Mr. Tavenner are not true
and correct facts as to that
Mr. Coleman. And you cast aspersions that I must know that.
Mr. Clardy. If you don't know, you are certainly a most peculiar
individual.
Mr. Coleman. As if that is of concern here.
There is more at hand here than my recollection of knowing things.
Mr. Clardy. I asked you a question.
1 Retained in the files of the committee.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7155
Mr. Coleman. Will you let me consult my attorney and without
any casting aspersions on my consulting him ?
Mr. Clardy. You may consult him.
Mr. Coleman. Repeat the question, please.
Mr. Clardy. No; I will not. You remember what it is.
Mr. Coleman. Well, if you don't repeat it, I am sorry.
Mr. Clardy. Why don't you answer the question ?
I direct you to answer the question.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. Well, if you refuse to have the question repeated,
since there was some confusion there and Mr. Ta vernier said something
and I said something, I am afraid that I don't know exactly how the
question is worded.
Mr. Clardy. Are you refusing to answer the question ?
Mr. Coleman. I do not understand the question and I don't know
what the question is.
Mr. Clardy. You know better than that, so you are, by indirection,
refusing to answer it. That will be noted in the record.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Walter, a member of the committee, asked you
whether or not you had at any time resided in the city of Washington
and you refused to answer on the ground that to do so might tend to
incriminate you.
I find on this application for emplojnnent that the last two addresses
were given, one of which being 737 Howard Street, Washington, D. C,
1946 to 1950.
Now, isn't it true that you did live in Washington between 1946 and
1950.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't that true ?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. In answering that question, if the question is — I
cannot really see what my — where I lived at in 1946 or 1947 has to do
with the issue, the concern of this committee in its investigations. And
so I think it is impertinent, and if it is pertinent, then I invoke the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer the question.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Clardy. We want to make this record airtight.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. I think that the question is not pertinent and there-
fore I refuse to answer it, and I also invoke my rights under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, Mr. Coleman, the statement in
your application that you lived at 737 Howard Street, Washington,
D. C, from 1946 to 1950 and then in Flint, Mich., from February
1950, was entirely false and untrue ; wasn't it ?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Tavenner. And you knew it was untrue when you wrote it?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. Mr. Tavenner, you are asking me to again verify
something on that document which I gave the grounds for not verify-
ing; and, secondly, I invoke the fifth amendment.
7156 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. I refuse to answer the question for the two reasons
I just stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Coleman, your statement on your application
that you were a resident of Washington, D. C, from 1946 to 1950
could not have been true, because you were then attending the Jeffer-
son School in New York and you were the social science editor of the
New Foundations in 1948 and part of 1949.
Mr. Coleman. I haven't verified either one of those documents.
Either one of them could be false.
Mr. Tavenner. Are they false ?
Mr. Coleman. I am making a simple statement like you are making.
Mr. "Walter. Which one of those is false ?
Mr. Coleman. It is not for me to verify the falsity or correctness
of either one of those documents.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, may I suggest that you go back to your
original question. The question was, as I understand it, that the
statements made on the application form could not be correct because
of the fact that he was engaged, as you have indicated, in connection
with this magazine and because he was in New York at the school
you have described.
Is that not the gist of your question?
Mr. Tavenner. That is the question.
Mr. Clardy. I direct j^ou to answer the question put to you by Mr.
Tavenner.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. The answer to the question is the same as I just
gave.
Mr. Clardy. You are refusing to answer on the two grounds ?
Mr. Coleman. On the two grounds I just stated.
Mr. Clardy. Now, then, ask the question which I think we should
as to which of the two is true or false. I cut you off on that but I
think it is well to ask it.
Mr. Tavenner. Which of these two statements which have been
presented to you is correct; that you did live in Washington, D. C.
between 1946 and 1950, or that you were in the city of New York
between December 1948 and some date in 1949?
Mr. Coleman. I think that it is an insult to my commonsense for
you, Mr. Clardy, to direct that question again like that and it is more
of a reflection on your own self to ask me a question like that when I
just finished answering it.
Mr. Clardy. I am directing you to answer it.
Mr. Coleman. And I make the same answer as I gave before.
Mr. Clardy. What is the answer?
Mr. ( 'olkmax. That this document — neither one of them have been
verified by me.
Also, I had invoked the fifth amendment on the question.
Mr. Walter. You started to say that neither of those documents
had been what, identified?
Mr. Coleman. Had been verified.
Mr. Walter. Maybe (hey could be verified if you were shown the
documents.
Mr. Tavenner. Those exhibits have been shown to the witness and
he has refused to identify them. Possibly he will do so now.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7157
Mr. Walter. Yes, his recollection may have been refreshed.
Mr. Tavenner. This may have refreshed it; yes, sir. I will now
present the documents to the witness again.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. Surely this committee takes the — has information in
its own investigation and if you have done this, Mr. Tavenner, or who-
ever your investigator was who did it with their little pinkies, then
you ought to have confidence in their work and not mine, and you have
already stated that you have already given evidence that what I say
here, if you do not agree with it, doesn't amount to a hill of beans ; so
from that commonsense point of view you should not ask me to
identify either one of these articles.
Secondly, I refuse to identify these articles because I don't know
what they are and I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Walter. You can read. You have got good eyes. If you
don't know what they are, look at them and read them.
Mr. Coleman. Mr. Walter, you could not stand me to tell you about
reality a while ago.
Mr. Walter. I have heard this from other commies and I just don't
like it. I am very allergic to the commies.
Mr. Coleman. It just hurts you to hear about it, and you expect me
not to say anything about it.
Mr. Walter. Just take a look at that document and answer the
question if you can identify it.
Mr. Clardy. I will ask you this question : Have you seen either of
those documents before, in the original ?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Clardy. One is a magazine and the other is the application.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Clardy. Now, I am directing that you answer it. As you un-
derstand, under the statute it is necessary that I direct you to answer
the question in order that a proper request may be made of the proper
court for a grant of immunity in order to bring you before us again
for answering the questions. It is necessary that the Chair direct
you, so I am making very sure that in each instance I direct you.
I say so that you will understand that.
I am now directing you to answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. The question I would like to have repeated.
Mr. Clardy. I will say it again. The question is : Did you ever see
the original of the two documents, copies of which are before you, one
being the magazine and the second one being the application.
Mr. Coleman. Perhaps if I could see the originals, I might be able
to answer the question. But as I have said before, if you do not
have any confidence in your own investigators, then I certainly cannot
and I cannot verify these documents.
Mr. Clardy. We have confidence in them.
Mr. Coleman. Well, if you know that they are authentic, then it is
no matter what I say it contains.
Mr. Clardy. If there is any contradiction, Witness
Mr. Coleman. What is that?
Mr. Clardy. It comes from you because you have made contradic-
tory statements.
Mr. Coleman. The contradiction stems from you at the beginning.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
7158 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Coleman. Because your harassing of me is entirely out of line
with the purpose for which your committee is supposed to have been
established. You have never investigated
Mr. Clardy. My only quarrel with you is that you have been iden-
tified as a Communist.
Mr. Coleman. You have never investigated or even been concerned
about the deprivation of civil rights of millions of my people in the
South.
Mr. Clardy. It is because of people like you.
Mr. Coleman. It is because of people like that that say something
about it.
Mr. Clardy. You and your ilk become the biggest Communists.
Mr. Coleman. And you, yourself, by showing how you can get con-
cerned about a person like me and not concerned about the crimes
taking place daily where lynchings are out in the open and nobody
investigates it, and I am supposed to be crazy if I say something
about it.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it a fact that the placing of the false informa-
tion on your application as to the period of your residence in the city
of Washington was done in order to deceive your employers so they
could not ascertain what business you were really engaged in during
that time in New York ?
Mr. Clardy. And the Chair directs that you answer the question.
(At this point Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. That question is not pertinent to the issue because
the reason that question, as it was before established when this com-
mittee was in Flint, Mich., was to stir up violence in the shop.
It is not to get anyone for some crime they committed. Those
people only lost their jobs and were beaten up. That was the only
result of your committee coming to question.
Mr. Walter. You said it is not pertinent to the issue. What are
the issues ?
Mr. Coleman. You are supposed to be investigating crimes against
the United States, which happen every day, which you allow to go
unpunished. . I
Mr. Walter. I was afraid you were in error. The issue isn't in-
vestigation of crimes. The Federal Bureau of Investigation does
that. Oh, no; the purpose is something entirely different.
Mr. Clardy. I do not think your attempt to educate him will
succeed. So we might as well get on with the hearing.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it also true that in filling out the educational
part of your application that you omitted any information concerning
your attendance at Jefferson School in New York in order to deceive
your employer.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Clardy. And the Chair directs that the question be answered.
Mr. Coleman. You are asking me a loaded question to a fact that
I left out attending Jefferson School, and I have never even said or
it has never been established that I had attended Jefferson School,
and, furthermore, this committee has called me before it without
even giving me the reasons why I was called before it.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7159
You are supposed to have evidence before you call people before it.
Mr. Scherer. Do you deny that you attended Jefferson School?
Do you deny that %
Mr. Coleman. I said that this committee has never established the
fact that I have attended any school.
Mr. Scherer. Isn't it a fact that you attended Jefferson School ?
Mr. Coleman. And I say that this committee
Mr. Scherer. I ask you to answer the question.
Isn't it a fact that you attended Jefferson School ?
Mr. Clardy. I direct that you answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. You have got two questions on the floor.
Mr. Clardy. You have my direction that you answer the question
last propounded by Congressman Scherer.
(At this point, Air. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. Well, I don't want to waive any rights under the
fifth amendment. I do not want to be put in jail for nothing, so I
would like to have it understood that the question previously stated,
although you are saying go on with the second question, my rights
under the fifth amendment, I do not waive those rights all in relation
to that question.
Mr. Clardy. You are refusing to answer Mr. Scherer's question.
Mr. Coleman. I am talking about the question previous to this, but
yet it may come out that you are going to fine me for contempt.
Mr. Clardy. May I correct you ?
You understand the English language. The process we are under-
going now is designed to prevent you from going to jail and not put
you in jail. The statute is designed to prevent and not put you in
jail.
Mr. Coleman. The immunity deal
Mr. Clardy. I take it you want to be obstinate about it.
Mr. Scherer. Isn't that a fact that you attended Jefferson School ?
Mr. Clardy. And I direct you to answer the question.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. Whether or not I attended the Jefferson School is
irrelevant to the purposes of this committee as far as supposedly set
up to investigate un-American activities.
My rights to attend, to associate, to speak freely within the law is
guaranteed to me by the first amendment which you refuse to recog-
nize and I also refuse to answer the question on the basis of my rights
under the fifth amendment since the only way I can protect any rights
under the fifth amendment is to use the first amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you deny that you attended the Jefferson School ?
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. My answer is the same as I gave before.
Mr. Clardy. Very well.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with a person by the
name of Mary Stalcup Markward ?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. Whether I know a Stalcup or a Mary Stalcup or
whatever her name is
Mr. Tavenner. Let me get you straight on the name.
It is M!ary Markward.
7160 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIKS IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Coleman. Whatever her name is. Whether I know her is
irrelevant to the purposes that this eommitttee is supposed to be set up
to investigate, and if there is anything you want to know about me,
then that is the field that you go into, and. furthermore, I invoke the
fifth amendment.
M r. ( 'lardy. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. I refuse on the grounds that I just stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Alary Markward was the former treasurer of the
Communist Party of the District of Columbia, and in that capacity
she was working for the Federal Bureau of Investigation from 1942
until 1946, or possibly longer, 1948, I believe.
The committee is advised by Mary Markward that she remembers
you as having been a student at Howard University and as an in-
dividual with whom she met on several occasions at Communist Party
headquarters on Ninth Street, Washington, D. C.
Is she correct in that identification of you ?
Mr. Clardy. I direct you to answer the question.
(At this point Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. TVistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. This Mary character that you are referring to has
given you certain information anybody can give, any character can
give.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it right or is it wrong ?
Mr. Coleman. And so it is not important whether I validate it or
not, but I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Is the possible identification of you as a Communist
in Washington the real reason why you would not answer Mr. Walter's
question as to whether or not you had attended Howard University?
(At this point Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer the question.
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. I refuse to answer that question because to answer
them might put my freedom at stake and I am actually fearful of
answering that question, and I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been present at Communist Party
headquarters on Ninth Street in Washington, D. C. ?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. From the way the question is posed, evidently there
was a headquarters at Ninth Street or wherever you say it was and if
it was there it must have been a legal organization and if anyone,
myself included, went up there, it is my right to go up there and this
committee — therefore, that question is not pertinent.
Now, No. 2 is that I invoke the fifth amendment because to admit
my right, to admit any kind of a practice under the first amendment
nowadays before this committee is to put yourself in jeopardy.
So I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. To you it was a lawful organization and had a right
to exist and you could not commit any crime by going there, and you
invoke the fifth amendment because you admit it might incriminate
you?
Mr. Coleman. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you employed in the summer of 1949 by Camp
Unity, a summer resort near Wingdale, N. Y. ?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7161
Mr. Coleman. I haven't done anything criminal. I haven't done
anything criminal and so if I had worked at Camp Unity, then it was
not anything wrong.
Mr. Scherer. Well, if there was not anything criminal, then you
have invoked the fifth amendment improperly all day today.
Mr. Clardy. You surely have.
Mr. Coleman. I said if I worked there.
Mr. Clardy. I heard what you said. You said you did not do
anything criminal.
Mr. Coleman. If there is such a camp as Camp Unity, then it must
lawfully exist. But I regard the question as an invasion of my right
to free association, free assembly, and I invoke all my rights under the
first amendment.
I invoke my constitutional right in its entirety. I invoke the rights
of the concept — I protest under the concept of the preamble to the Con-
stitution which states that a person has the right to the pursuit of
happiness and all that it entails; and for me the pursuit of happiness
certainly means to try to obtain equality and full democracy for every-
one in this country and not just for a few.
So I invoke those principles and I invoke the fifth amendment in
refusing to answer the question.
Mr. Clardy. To complete the record, you are directed to answer the
question.
Mr. Coleman. Well, my position is as I said here, the preamble to
the Constitution of the United States which proposes that every man
should have the right to happiness, and this position is especially im-
portant to me as a Negro American. It means to me that the prin-
ciple of democracy is real and not for a few but for all Americans. It
means that if
Mr. Clardy. Are you refusing to answer on the usual grounds?
Mr. Coleman. It is a joking matter to you, Mr. Walter, because you
happen to be in the other group in the United States and you are not
only amused but you are calloused.
Mr. Clardy. Listen to me.
Are you refusing to answer the question on the grounds already
advanced ?
Mr. Coleman. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. Very well.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Coleman. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. And I give the same answer.
Mr. Clardy. Do you have any questions. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Sciierer. Do you belong to the NAACP?
Mr. Coleman. Mr. Scherer, you know that the XAACP is another
organization, because of its statements concerning the right for every
man, Negro as well as white, to have equality, has been branded by
various individuals as being :» lied front and a Red organization : and
there are plenty of quotes by congressional representatives above your
capacity and senatorial ship who say that the XAACP is nothing but
a bunch of Reds, and because any kind of organization that is pro-
7162 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
gressive — you never heard of the Courier and you never heard of a lot
of things that happen in the United States in regard to my people and
you don't make it your business and you should make it your business.
And when I talk about it, you take a callous attitude and refuse to
admit it.
Mr. Clardy. He asked a very simple question.
Mr. Coleman. I know, and it was a very simple question.
Mr. Clardy. Are you a member of the organization he asked you
about ?
Mr. Coleman. I invoke my rights under the fifth amendment and
refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Coleman. 1 also regard the question as not pertinent and I give
the same reason as before for not answering, and the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that this record
should be permitted to stand the way it is indicated it does now.
This committee has never cited that organization as a Communist
front, and it has never been cited by any organization.
Mr. Coleman. The record
Mr. Clardy. Witness, Mr. Tavenner is speaking.
Mr. Tavenner. The only discussion about it was the local that ex-
isted in Hawaii, and the national organization, of the NAACP with-
drew the charter from that organization in Hawaii because of that,
and I do not think that the record should be shown to indicate that
this witness is claiming that that organization is a Ked
Mr. Coleman. I am not claiming that. I said it has been said it
was.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, I think the Chair is content the record
stand as it is because it is quite obvious that this gentleman is attempt-
ing to himself make the accusation in a backhanded fashion.
He has brought it into the hearing in an attempt to wrap a mantle
of innocence about himself.
What you said is obviously substantially correct so far as I know
and I do not think that it is necessary that we produce any testimony
at this time because the name of that organization is certainly not
before us and it is not on trial in any way, shape, or form.
Do you have any more questions, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I want to make this observation : That I think the
record should show that the whole attitude and mannerism of this
witness, including his tone of voice during his entire interrogation,
was most contemptuous.
Mr. Coleman. And I would like the record to show that I object
to that kind of reference to my attitude.
Mr. Clardy. Do you have any questions, Mr. Walter ?
Mr. Walter. No.
Mr. Clardy. I have just 1 or 2.
Mr. Tavenner asked you if you were now a member of the Com-
munist Party. I want to ask you if you ever have been a member
of the Communist Party, and I direct you to answer that question.
Mr. Coleman. I refuse to answer it under my rights under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Clardy. And now, because of the statement made earlier when
you were on the stand previously today, that the committee, the full
committee intends to meet and to take action under the immunity
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7163
statute, I feel impelled to ask you this : Assuming that the full com-
mittee agrees with the subcommittee and that recourse is had to
the court asking that immunity be granted so that we may then
summon you before us again and once more propound the questions
you were directed to answer, will you at that time, when and assuming
that you are granted immunity, will you at that time give full, free,
and true answers to those questions ?
(At this point, Mr. Coleman conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Coleman. In regard to that question and the point that was
made before, I disagree with Mr. Scherer's remarks and I object to
them strongly because my attitude in championing my rights as a
human being — if you were in my shoes you would regard it as being
very noble and brave, a thing to do in the face, especially, of all the
things that are going on today.
So I object to his interpretation of my attitude as being insulting
or disrespectful.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, get off the platform and answer the question.
Mr. Coleman. And, furthermore, on this question that you raised,
I am not good at imagining just how this committee or that immunity
thing might work out. I am not good at imagining things like that.
So I am not prepared to answer that question now.
Mr. Clardy. All right, then before I excuse you, I want to associate
myself with Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Coleman. And that goes for you, too, then.
Mr. Clardy. Please subside, because it is entirely possible that I
may not be present when you are eventually called back before the
committee for a final hearing that I think will follow.
I want the record to show clearly and unequivocally that, in my
opinion, you have been one of the most contemptuous witnesses that
it has been my experience to hear in the time I have been on the com-
mittee.
Mr. Coleman. You have been one of the most contemptuous per-
sons I have ever faced.
Mr. Clardy. Will you subside, sir ?
Mr. Coleman. You have been contemptuous of my rights.
Mr. Clardy. And I am — Officer, will you step over there ?
If we have to suppress him by force, we shall do so.
I want you to know that, in my opinion, you have been deliberately
following the Communist Party line in an effort to obstruct the work
of the committee, in an effort to show your contempt of the commit-
tee, and I want the committee that will have charge of the final hear-
ing to know that as one who presided over this hearing, it was my firm
conviction that you did what you did and gave the answers that you
did.
Mr. Coleman. I am before this committee without being named by
anybody.
Mr. Clardy. The witness will be excused, to be recalled at the con-
venience of the committee.
You will be notified as to the time and place subsequent to this
hearing.
We will now stand in recess until 10 a. m. tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 4 :43 p. m., the hearing adjourned to Thursday, No-
vember 18, 1954, at 10 a. m.)
INDEX
Individuals
Page
Allan, William 7146
Bauinkel, Marilyn (Molly) (Mrs. Sherwood Baumkel ; see also Schiff,
Molly) 7131-7151 (testimony)
Baumkel, Sherwood (Gerald, Jerry) 7131, 7149, 7150
Baxter, Bolza 7150
Baxter, Louis 7150
Carter, Robert Alan 7104-7116 (testimony)
Churchill, Mrs. Beatrice 7145, 7146
Coleman, James Andrew 7116-7131 (testimony) ; 7151-7163 (testimony)
Cranefield, Harold A 7104-7116
Falk, Howard 7150
Ganley, Nat 7146
Gould, Robert 7145
Ingram, Rosalie 7123
Karpez, Ted 7150
Markward, Mary Stalcup 7159, 7160
Millstein, Al 7145
Moscow, Jacob 7150
Rauh, Joseph L., Jr 7104-7116
Schiff, Molly (see also Baumkel, Molly) 7133
Simon, Paul 7150
Van der Does, William 7150
Winter, Helen Allison 7146
Wistrand, Bruce 7131-7163
Zrischny, Jimmie 7150
Oroanizations
American Federation of Labor , 7105
Camp Unity 7160, 7161
Flint News Advertiser 7106
Greater Flint Industrial Council 7105
Jefferson School of Social Science 7128, 7152, 7156, 7158, 7159
Labor Youth League 7150
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 7161, 7162
Xew Foundations 7128, 7152
State Journal, Lansing, Mich 7105
o
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— Part 12
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
NOVEMBER 18 AND 19, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
INCLUDING INDEX
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1954
>ston Pu iry
Superintendent of Document3
FEB 2 1955
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois, Chairman
BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania
DONALD L. JACKSON, California MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri
KIT CLARDY, Michigan CLYDE DOYLE, California
GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee
Robert L. Kunzig, Counsel
Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel
Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk
Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research
Courtney E. Owens, Chief Investigator
II
CONTENTS
Page
November 18, 1954, testimony of —
Max Trachtenberg 7165
Paul G. Simon 7173
Henry Alfred Birdsall, Jr 7184
Ralph Fileccia 7191
Mrs. Shirley Foster 7197
November 19, 1954, testimony of —
James G. Petroff 7205
Alfred Millstein 7222
Harold Robertson 723 1
Philip Halper 7235
Index *
m
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121 STANDING COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
*******
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
v
RULES ADOPTED BY THE S3D CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1953
*******
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con-
gress, the following standing committees :
*******
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
*******
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.
VI
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— PAET 12
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 18, 1954
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. G.
PUBLIC HEARING
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, pursuant to recess, at 10 : 30 a. m., in room 313 of the Old House
Office Building, Hon. Harold H. Velde (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman), Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, Francis E. Walter, and
Morgan M. Moulder (appearance noted in transcript).
Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; Courtney
E. Owens, chief investigator; Thomas W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk;
Raphael I. Nixon, director of research; and Donald Appell,
investigator.
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Reporter, let the record show that present are Mr. Clardy, Mr.
; Scherer, Mr. Walter, and myself, as chairman of the subcommittee.
Do we have a witness, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Max Trachtenberg, will you come forward, please sir?
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this sub-
committee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole
(truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MAX TRACHTENBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, JOSEPH FORER
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Max Trachtenberg.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying you please identify
himself for the record ?
Mr. Forer. Joseph Forer, 711 14th Street NW., Washington, D. C.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Trachtenberg?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I was born August 10, 1917, in the city of
Detroit.
Mr. Tavenner. WTiere do you now reside ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I reside at 1550 Delaware, Detroit.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived in Detroit during your entire life?
Mr. Trachtenberg. No.
7165
7166 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. What other places have you resided ?
Mr. Traciitenbekg. I resided in many places. I lived in New
Jersey — — !
Mr. Tavenner. Let's begin this way: How long have you lived v.
Detroit, from the present time back to the time you lived in some
other place?
In other words, your last residence at Detroit has been for how long
a period of time?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Oh, about 5 years or so, I imagine.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that, where did you live ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I lived in Flint.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you live in Flint ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Not quite a year.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you move to Flint ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Oh, around 1948 or 1949; somewhere in there.
Mr. Tavenner. When you came to Flint, from what area did you
come ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I came from New York.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in New York?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Well, I couldn't tell you exactly how long be
cause in the early part of my life my father moved around quite a bit:
but I would say maybe 15 years or so. Maybe a little longer, or less.
I wouldn't be too sure.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Armed Forces at any
time?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the period when you were a member of
the Armed Forces ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. About 1942-^5 or so.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your employment im-
mediately prior to your coming to Flint, Mich., in 1948 or 1949 ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Oh, I had various jobs.
Mr. Tavenner. My question was immediately prior.
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder entered the hearing room at
this point.)
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I was a substitute in the post office, I think, my
last job.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Well, I attended grade school, secondary
school, and I had a few terms in college.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a brother of Martin Trachtenberg?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Martin Trachtenberg is my brother.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the two of you come to Flint at the same time!
Mr. Tkachtenberg. Now, look here, this is my brother you are
talking about, and I didn't think that in this country you are asked
to talk about or against or for members of your family.
This resembles something that I read about in other countries— m
Germany, for instance, where people are asked to talk about their
brothers, -which finally led to 10 million of my people being cremated,
and T don't approve of that kind of questioning.
Therefore, I will ask you to withdraw that question.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7167
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the witness be di-
rected to answer %
Mr. Velde. Sorry ; I wasn't listening to the question that you asked.
Mr. Tavenner. I asked the witness whether or not his brother was
Martin Trachtenberg, and he replied that he was ; and I asked whether
this witness came to Flint at the same time his brother, Martin, came,
and the witness has requested that I withdraw the question on the
oround he didn't think he should be required to give any testimony
relating to his brother.
Mr. Velde. Certainly the Chair feels it is a very legitimate question.
So, you are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Walter. Well, I didn't hear, either. I heard something about
"my people being cremated." What has that got to do with your
brother
Mr. Scherer. It was a very surly answer on the part of the witness.
Mr. Walter. No, no.
Mr. Scherer. I listened to it.
Mr. Walter. What has that got to do with the time your brother
went to Detroit ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. In Germany, there is a practice of trying to
turn father against son, daughter against mother, on the basis of this
' kind of questioning, and I strongly resent that kind of questioning in
relation to my brother.
Mr. Clardt. So, you think merely asking whether you two went
to that area at the same time is just a horrible question and shouldn't
be asked ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I am down here to answer all the questions
about myself. My brother has nothing to do with it, and, therefore,
I asked to withdraw that question.
Mr. Velde. Well, rather than withdraw the question, you are di-
rected to answer the question, Mr. Trachtenberg.
Mr. Trachtenberg. I will refuse to answer that question on the
basis of my rights under the Constitution, all my rights under the
Constitution, on the basis of the first amendment that gives me privi-
lege of speech, freedom of association, freedom of thought which this
committee does not seem to hold in great respect.
I also claim the privilege of my rights under the fifth amendment,
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Scherer. When did you come to this country?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I was born in this country.
Mr. Scherer. You said "over in Germany." What were you re-
ferring to Germany about ; your people in Germany ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I have a strong feeling for all people that sutler
prosecution, and of course I am interested in the people of my nation-
ality that suffer prosecution and persecution.
Mr. Scherer. I thought you were referring to your family.
Mr. Trachtenberg. My family was also involved.
Mr. Clardy. You mean your family lives in Germany now?
Mr. Trachtenberg. No.
Mr. Clardy. Have they ever ?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. No. They have been in Germany, but
48861— 54— pt. 12-
7168 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. Did they live in Russia?
Mr. Trachtenberg. No. They lived in countries overrun by
Germany.
Mr. Clardy. What countries?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Poland.
Mr. Scherer. Did you say a few minutes ago your people were
persecuted in Germany ? What did you mean by that?
Mr. Walter. He didn't mean literally his people. That was just
the old professional
Mr. Trachtenberg. I meant all the Jewish people that were burned
in Germany.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't understand. I thought you were referring
to your own family.
Mr. Clardy. You weren't referring to the persecution of the people
of Poland by the Communists then, when you said that; were you?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I was referring to that period of time of the
cremation of the Jews by the Nazis.
Mr. Clardy. But you didn't recognize the persecution of the poor
people of Poland by the Communists ae equally horrible ; did you ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I recognize the fact that my people were cre-
mated in Poland.
Mr. Clardy. Your answer or refusal to answer tells us a great deal
more than you probably suspect.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Ta tenner. What employment did you take upon arriving in
Flint?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I was unfortunate in Flint. I had various jobs.
I built sidewalks. I peddled. I hustled — peddling. I did everything
I could to make an honest living.
Mr. Tavenner. According to your statement, after being there less
than a year, you went to Detroit. What has been your employment
in Detroit ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. In Detroit I now work at the DeSoto Auto Co.,
Division of the Chrysler Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. Has that been your employment during the entire
period you have resided in Detroit?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I think so.
I'm not sure. I think it's all I have done.
Mr. Tavenner. When you arrived in Flint, did you identify your-
self with the Communist Party there by becoming affiliated with the
Communist Party in Flint?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I will again invoke my rights under the same
reasons that I have stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you refuse to testify because to do
so might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to testify under the rights of the fifth
amendment; also under the rights of the first amendment, which I
have stated before; but principally the fifth amendment, because I
will not be a witness against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted in Flint with Mrs. Beatrice
Churchill?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7169
Mr. Trachtenberg. I will state right now before this committee I
will refuse to answer any questions in relation to persons, and I will
claim my rights under the same reasons that I have done before.
Mr. Clardy. Let me see if I understand what you mean. Regard-
less of what the question may be, if it concerns some other person, yon
will refuse to answer it; am I correct in my understanding?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. No; that's not what I meant. I didn't mean
to state it that way. I will limit my answers to the questions directed
at me.
Mr. Clardy. I thought so.
I ask, Mr. Chairman that he be directed to answer that question.
Mr. Velde. Certainly.
i~ou are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Forer. Can we have the question again?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you read the question?
(The reporter read the question as follows:)
Were you acquainted in Flint with Mrs. Beatrice Churchill?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer for the reasons I have stated
before.
Mr. Tavenner. Beatrice Churchill was a member of the Communist
Party, according to her testimony, having entered the party at the
request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
She described, in the course of her testimony, the practice of the
Communist Party to send young persons from the area of New York
into Flint for the purpose of colonizing industry.
Her testimony on that subject was very limited as far as you are
concerned.
In fact, she only refers in her testimony to you as the brother of
Martin.
She does describe Martin Trachtenberg and his wife Phyllis Trach-
tenberg as having been two of the colonizers who came into Flint.
She says in regard to you :
Max Trachtenberg was in Flint for quite some time but he was unable to
seek employment; so, he went to Detroit.
Of course, there is no dispute as to that. You have testified you did
go to Detroit after having been in Flint for a short period of time.
There was testimony before the committee regarding a young Com-
munist League group in Flint and various meetings that were held by
that group. Persons who were identified as members of that group
included Bolza Baxter ; Louis Baxter ; Nadine Baxter ; Lola Van der
Does ; Shirley Fox ; Bruce Widmark ; Pauline Widmark ; Elsie White ;
Joy Trachtenberg; Phyllis Trachtenberg; and Max Trachtenberg.
Were you identified with the Young Communist group of the Com-
munist Party in Flint?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer that question for the same
reasons I have stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. At another place in the testimony this question was
asked :
Are you able to identify any other of the New York group? Did I understand
you to say there is another one of these Trachtenbergs from New York?
7170 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
The witness had previously testified regarding your brother.
The Witness. Yes. There is a Max Trachtenberg and Joy Trachtenberg, hus-
band and wife. Max obtained employment in one of the factories, but it was
found that he was a Communist, or closely associated with it, and before his
3-month period was up, was fired. Then he obtained employment with the city
of Flint.
Were you discharged from any employment while in Flint ?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. By whom ?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. The Chevrolet Motor Co.
Mr. Tavenner. How soon after your employment began was it that
you were discharged ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. It was, oh, about 3 or 4 days; maybe 5. It
wasn't a week.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the date, please, when you were dis-
charged ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I can't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your employment?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Oh, there was no steady job I was on. It was
just various jobs, whatever they were short at I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that very soon after your arrival in Flint?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I can't remember how soon it was or how late
it was. I can't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the reason for your employment ?
Mr. Forer. Employment?
Mr. Tavenner. I mean your discharge.
Mr. Trachtenberg. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. You have refused to answer the question before,
but I would like to repeat it now. Had you, prior to your employment
with Chevrolet Motor Co., become affiliated with the Communist Partv
in Flint?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer that question for the same
reasons I have stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. Considerable testimony was taken at Flint regard-
ing a Communist Party meeting at a farm near Lapeer in September
1949.
The testimony was that that meeting was held for the purpose of
disbanding the Young Communist Group within the Communist
Party, that is, the group of young Communists, and to assign them to
particular fields of activity, such as the Labor Youth League and
the Progressive Party.
Bolza Baxter took a very prominent part in that meeting. That was
true also of Jack White and Jack Gore.
Were you present at a meeting of that description ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer that question for the same
reasons I have stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you file a written application for your em-
ployment with Chrysler in Detroit ?
(At this point Max Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I think so.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7171
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of an application and
I will ask you to look at the last page and state whether or not the
name appearing there, Max Trachtenberg, is a reproduction of your
signature.
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. It's possible it could be mine.
Mr. Tavenner. You are satisfied it is yours from examining it?
Mr. Trachtenberg. It's possible. I can't be satisfied, because no
one could be satisfied ; but it's possible.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Trachtenberg Exhibit No. 1." x
Mr. Velde. Without objection.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted from looking at the employment history
in your application that you made no reference to Chevrolet Motor
Co. at Flint, as having been an employer of yours.
Will you verify my statement?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenrerg. I don't see anything on there about that.
Mr. Tavenner. Why don't you advise your employer in your appli-
cation that you had been employed by Chevrolet Motor Co. ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I don't know.
Mr. Tevenner. A further examination of your application shows
that you were engaged in your own business at 1805 Pasadena, Flint,
from June 1946 to January 1950, when you have just advised us you
were in Flint for less than a year.
Why did you make that misstatement in your application?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons
stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't the actual reason why you made those mis-
statements in your application the fact that you desired to deceive
your employer as to what your occupation had been and what your
background was in order that you might more easily enter upon the
work of the Communist Party within the union working at that place?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons
I stated before, and I would also like to add that where I worked
there are thousands and thousands of workers, from all over the
country, with different and various backgrounds who come to work
in Detroit.
In fact, the big motor corporations go down and recruit people
you would call colonizers to work in Detroit.
In fact, I think Representative Clardy was born in Missouri. He
can be termed a colonizer for coming to Michigan.
Mr. Tavenner. I notice in another place on your application that
you stated you had lived at Flint for 4y2 years when you told us a
few moments ago you had lived there for less than 1 year.
Was that an untruthful statement in your application?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. Well, if that's the statement of mine on there,
then it's inaccurate.
Mr. Tavenner. Inaccurate?
1 Retained in the files of the committee.
7172 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
You mean false, don't you ?
(At this point Mr. Trachtenberg conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Trachtenberg. I said what I meant. I said it was inaccurate.
Mr. Tavenner. That is what you meant?
Mr. Trachtenberg. Inaccurate.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Trachtenberg, are you now a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer that question for the same
reasons I stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at!
any time while employed by Chrysler Motors?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons
I have stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. "Were you a member of the Communist Party inj
the State of New York before coming to Flint ?
Mr. Trachtenberg. I refuse to answer that question for the same
reasons I have stated before.
Mr. Tavenner I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy ?
Mr. Clardy. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Walter.
Mr. Walter. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. No questions.
Mr. Velde. I have no further questions.
The witness is dismissed.
The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon.
(Whereupon at 11 : 02 a. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m. of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 2:07 p. m., of the same day, the hearing was
resumed, the following committee members being present : Representa-
tives Kit Clardy (presiding), Gordon H. Scherer, and Francis E.
Walter.)
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session.
Let the record show the chairman has appointed a subcommittee,
consisting of Congressman Scherer, Walter, Moulder and myself.
Do you have a witness ready, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I would like to call Mr. Alfred Millstein,
please. Will you come forward, Mr. Millstein?
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Millstein requested that he be put over until
tomorrow, which was agreed to some days ago; but counsel saw me
yesterday and I thought was going to have the witness available
today.
Mr. Appell. Millstein was in the room this morning.
Mr. Clardy. Is he in the room now ?
Mr. Tavenner. I feel there probably has been some misunderstand-
ing as to the time for his appearance.
Mr. Clardy. I had understood we had agreed to bring him on
tomorrow.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7173
Will counsel identify himself ?
Mr. Wistrand. Bruce Wistrand.
Mr. Clardy. Of Flint, Mich. ?
Mr. Wistrand. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF PAUL G. SIMON, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
BRUCE WISTRAND
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Simon. My name is Paul G. Simon.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Simon ?
Mr. Simon. I was born in Hamadan, Iran, 1922.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the name, please ?
Mr. Simon. H-a-m-a-d-a-n.
Mr. Tavenner. And what was the date of your birth?
Mr. Simon. June the 15th, 1922.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ?
Mr. Simon. May I consult counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Surely.
(At this point Mr. Simon conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Simon. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you naturalized and where ?
Mr. Simon. May I have the permission to check my records, please?
Mr. Tavenner. Surely.
Mr. Simon. I was naturalized December the 8th, 1948, at Genesee
County, Flint, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. Under what name were you naturalized?
Mr. Simon. Paul George Simon.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that your name at birth, or had your name prior
to that been changed ?
Mr. Simon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by "Yes"?
Mr. Simon. I would like to indicate here, due to the fact I am
foreign-born, and also that at the time of my birth — rather, my father
died prior to me being born and, as a result of that, there was a lot —
it created many problems.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I am not interested in any reason for the
change of name, but in order to get your identity correct I want to
know if you have used any name other than your present name, Paul
G. Simon. There is nothing mysterious about it.
Mr. Simon. In France I went by the name of Paul Badal. And
that Badal is my mother's maiden name.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you change the name to Simon, or when
did you first become known as Paul G. Simon ?
Mr. Simon. I adopted my stepfather's last name, and his name is
Simon.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you adopt that name?
Mr. Simon. I would like to indicate here, due to the language diffi-
culties at that time, that later on in school I adopted it as a last name.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that before you came to the United States or
after you came to the United States ?
Mr. Simon. You mean when I adopted it to Simon ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
7174 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Simon. It was after.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you enter the United States ?
Mr. Simon. I entered the United States approximately the month
of March 1932.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you make entry into the United States!
Mr. Simon. Ellis Island, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. And at the time of your entry you were known
by the name of Badal. Now how long after that was it you adopted
the name of Simon ?
Mr. Simon. Well, sir, as a matter of fact, I arrived at this country
as a minor, at the age of 10, 1 believe.
Not only I adopted the name of Badal; I also adopted the name
of Solomon, which is my stepfather's first name.
I used it as my last name, considering here the language difficulties,
because I am foreign-born, and then ilidopted the name Simon later
on in school.
Mr. Tavenner. My question is, when did you adopt the name
Simon ?
Mr. Simon. I believe I adopted that name when I attended junior
high school in Flint, Mich.
Mr. Clardy. What year was that?
Mr. Simon. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. Scherer. Did you graduate from high school ?
Mr. Simon. I graduated from high school.
Mr. Scherer. What year did you graduate ?
Mr. Simon. I graduated from high school in 1941, and at that time
my name was Paul Simon.
Mr. Clardy. That would be some time in the period 1937 to 1941
that that change took place ; wouldn't it?
Mr. Scherer. He said it was in his junior year.
Mr. Simon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived in Flint, Mich., continuously sine*
the time you graduated from high school ?
Mr. Simon. Well, I graduated high school in 1941 and I was drafted
in the Armed Forces in the month of October, I believe, of 1942.
I spent approximately 40 months in the Armed Forces. I received
an honorable discharge, I may add.
Mr. Tavenner. With the exception of that period of time when
you were in the armed services, you have lived continuously in Flint;
is that what you are telling us?
Mr. Simon. From 1941 ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Simon. Yes ; I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now employed by AC Spark Plug Divi-
sion of General Motors ?
Mr. Simon. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so employed ?
Mr. Simon. From the month of June 1941.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall having made a written application for
your position with AC Spark Plug?
Mr. Simon. Sir, I would like to indicate I graduated in June of 1941
and 2 weeks later, I believe, I began to work in AC.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. My question was : Did you file an application
at any time for employment ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7175
Let me explain this : When you came back from the service, you
renewed your employment, I assume, at AC Spark Plug?
Mr. Simon. Sir, to the best of my recollection, I was given a leave
of absence. .
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Did you file a written application when you
first began your employment with AC Spark Plug?
(At this point Mr. Simon conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Simon. Sir, I may have, but I don't specifically remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you file an application in 1940, after your dis-
charge from the United States Army ?
Mr. Simon. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me see if I can refresh your recollection.
I hand you a photostatic copy of an application for employment at
AC Spark Plug Division of General Motors, over the signature of
Paul G. Simon.
I will ask you to examine it and state whether or not that is a repro-
duction of your signature.
(At this point Mr. Simon conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Scherer. I don't think that is a very difficult question. Don't
you think we better move on, witness, and counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to get an answer to the question.
Mr. Clardy. I think the Chair must direct the witness to answer
that question. You have had sufficient time — quite a few minutes.
Mr. Scherer. We have a lot more witnesses to hear.
Mr. Simon. I see the name Paul G. Simon on the document.
Mr. Clardy. Well, it looks like your handwriting, doesn't it?
Mr. Scherer. Is it his handwriting?
Mr. Simon. It could be.
Mr. Clardy. Well, you wouldn't deny that it is your handwriting,
would you ?
Mr. Simon. I couldn't swear that it was mine.
Mr. Clardy. Hand him a piece of paper and ask him to write his
name out.
(At this point Mr. Simon conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Clardy. Witness, will you write your name ?
Kemove the photostatic document from in front of him and let him
write his name without seeing that document.
Please comply with the Chair's request.
(At this point Mr. Simon conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Simon. I will refuse to do so.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness.
Mr. Clardy. I direct that you do that.
Mr. Simon. For the following reason: I believe this is the viola-
tion of the first amendment that guarantees every American citizen
freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and freedom of thought, and I
also invoke the privilege of the fifth amendment, which protects me
against testifying against myself.
Mr. Clardy. You are refusing to answer, or you are refusing to
write your name out, then, as directed by the Chair?
Mr. Simon. I am stating my legal grounds, Mr. Chairman. And
on that basis
48861—54 — pt. 12 3
7176 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. But I want to be sure this record is perfectly clear
that you are refusing to write your name on the blank piece of paper
Ave have placed in front of you, together with a writing instrument.
Am I correct ?
Mr. Simon. Well, again I would like to state I refuse
Mr. Clardy. I am just asking if you are refusing. I know you
stated some grounds, but I want to be sure I interpret that as a
blanket refusal on the grounds stated to do as the Chair directed.
Mr. Simon. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Clardy. Now I should like to ask you: Do you have in your
possession a driver's license ?
Will you exhibit it to us, please ?
(At this point Mr. Simon conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Scherer. Now, Mr. Chairman, I don't like to object. We have
got a lot of witnesses.
Mr. Clardy. I know we have.
Mr. Scherer. And I don't think we need all of this deliberation. I
think it is a studied attempt — it happened yesterday
Mr. Simon. Sir, I refuse to comply with your wishes, because I
believe it is a violation of the fourth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. You mean you refuse to produce your driver's license ?
Mr. Simon. I would like to state the reason why.
Mr. Clardy. Have you ever refused to produce your driver's li-
cense when stopped on a highway by an officer of the law ?
Mr. Simon. No one has stopped me on the highway, sir.
Mr. Clardy. But you are going to refuse to do it before this
committee ?
Mr. Simon. I want to state my legal rights.
Mr. Clardy. All right. Do you have any other documents in your
possession, which bear a facsimile of your signature ?
Mr. Simon. Sir, again you are violating the fourth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. I am asking you if you have such documents in your
possession.
Mr. Walter. What is your social security number?
Mr. Simon. Sir, you have taken the oath
Mr. Walter. I understand that.
Mr. Simon. To uphold the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Clardy. And so have you, to state the truth here.
Mr. Simon. And I am stating here you are violating
Mr. Walter. What is your social security number '.
Mr. Simon. I don't know.
Mr. Clardy. The Chair directs you to answer that question.
Mr. Simon. I don't recall my number.
Mr. Clardy. Well, do you have a card bearing that number?
Mr. Simon. Again, sir, you are violating the fourth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Are you refusing to tell us whether you do or not?
Mr. Simon. I want to state my legal grounds why I am refusing.
Mr. Clardy. You may. I ask you first to tell us whether you are
refusing, and then you may state your grounds.
Mr. Simon. Yes; I refuse, and my grounds are the fourth amend-
ment— the right of the people to be secure in their person, papers,
houses and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures.
Mr. Clardy. We are not going to make any effort to physically take
it from you. I don't want you to think that. It is entirely upon you
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7177
to refuse to respond to the request and respond to the direction of the
Chair.
Since you refuse, that is all there is to it. We can find your social
security number and we can find other facsimiles of your signature.
Mr. Simon. Why did you say
Mr. Walter. Where did you say you were born ?
Mr. Simon. I was born in Hamadan, Iran.
Mr. Walter. When?
Mr. Simon. 1922.
Mr. Walter. On what day (
Mr. Simon. June the 15th, 1922.
Mr. Walter. Now, this paper that contains the signature in question
is the signature of Paul Simon, who was born on the 15th of June,
1922, in Iran.
Aren't you the same person.
Mr. Simon. Sir, I must state I arrived at this country as a minor.
Mr. Walter. Doesn't that refresh your recollection?
Take a look at the signature.
Mr. Simon. I consider that a very prejudicial question, on the
basis
]NIr. Clardy. You mean to inquire where and when you were born
is prejudicial?
Mr. Simon. Sir, as I indicated before, I arrived in this country as
a minor. There were language difficulties. At times I couldn't even
express myself. I arrived in this country alone, with no one to ac-
company me, and I consider that question prejudicial, considering the
fact that Air. Walter
Mr. Walter. Prejudicial?
You consider the date of your birth prejudicial ?
Air. Simon. I consider the question — you are implying that there
is something wrong here
Mr. Walter. I am not implying anything. I am merely asking
you whether or not you were born on that date; and when you said
you were, I asked you again to look at that paper with the hope that
37ou would — oh, go on.
Mr. Clardy. Do you know of any other person born on that date
in the location named on that application blank before you, of the
same name ?
Mr. Simon. Considering the fact, sir, these investigations have
considered it subversive — rather, economic hardships are created —
any people that are named by this committee; and on that basis I
will not answer that question.
Mr. Walter. Don't you feel by your refusal to answer you are,
yourself, creating a rather difficult position?
Don't you think this is the opportunity to clarify the atmosphere?
I say that because we have every reason to believe you are a Com-
munist.
There are people who have under oath testified that you are a
Communist.
Mr. Simon. Sir, you are making an accusation without due process
of law.
It isn't
Mr. Walter. Is what I say true?
Are you a Communist?
7178 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Simon. I am saying you are making an accusation here.
Mr. Walter. No. I am asking a question. Are you a Communist?
Mr. Clardy. Here is your opportunity to forever clear yourself, if
you are not.
Mr. Simon. I consider your question a violation of the first and fifth
amendment, which the first guarantees every American citizen
freedom of speech, freedom of assembly — freedom of silence also.
Mr. Walter. I would like you or some other Commie to point out
to me where in the Constitution there is a right for people to overthrow
the Government of the United States by force and violence.
Unfortunately some people seem to believe that the Constitution of
the United States make's that provision.
Mr. Simon. Sir, I strongly don't advocate the overthrow of the
Government by force and violence.
Mr. Walter. Are you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Simon. As a matter of fact, force and violence was organized
by General Motors against me.
Mr. Walter. Yes.
Mr. Simon. My clothes were torn to shreds. My clothes were
thrown in the furnace
Mr. Walter. We are sorry about that.
Mr. Simon. My shoes were missing.
Mr. Walter. Are you a Communist?
Mr. Simln. As a result
Mr. Walter. Are you a Communist ?
Mr. Simon. The company's
Mr. Walter. Are you a Communist ?
Mr. Simon. I refuse to answer that question, as I previously stated.
Mr. Walter. Go ahead.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Simon Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Clardy. It will be received.1
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Simon, this application is not dated, but refer-
ence is made to the fact that you had served approximately 40 months
in the service.
I will read the item exactly :
State in full your military service in the United States or foreign countries.
Approximately 40 months in service, Army Air Force.
You were in the Air Force, were you not ?
Mr. Simon. Yes. Part of my military service was in the Air Force.
Mr. Tavenner. And if you entered the Army in October 1942, as
you stated in the early part of your testimony, and served 40 months,
then this application must have been filed more than 40 months there-
after, which would have been some time in 1946, would it not ?
Mr. Simon. To the best of my recollection, sir, I returned to the
shop, I believe, somewhere in March or April.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you made your application some time in March
or April of 1946?
Mr. Simon. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. But that is the approximate date, is it not?
(At this point Mr. Simon conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
1 Retained in the files of the committee.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7179
Mr. Simon. I would like clarification on that question. You said
approximate date — of what?
May I inquire of what?
Mr. Tavenner. The approximate date of your filing of application
[ for employment with AC Spark Plug-.
Mr. Simon. Sir, I am sorry. I don't recall that date.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me see if this would further refresh your recol-
lection.
This question is asked on the form :
Have you had a physical examination recently?
Answer. Yes.
Question : When ?
February 18, 1&46.
Therefore, the application was filed some time soon after that date,
was it not ?
(At this point Mr. Simon conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Simon. Sir, I already testified that I don't recall whether or
not I filled such an application.
Mr. Scherer. Do you deny that is a photostatic copy of your appli-
cation for employment with that company ?
Mr. Simon. I indicated, sir, that I don't recall.
Mr. Scherer. After looking at it, do you still deny that it is a
photostatic copy of your application ?
Mr. Simon. Sir, many things happened in my life. This was way
back in 1946.
Mr. Scherer. But do you mean to sit here and tell us, under oath,
after looking at that application, that you can't remember whether
you filed that application or not?
Mr. Simon. I'm sorry, sir. I don't. I don't recall.
Mr. Scherer. Well, I don't believe you.
Mr. Simon. Well, that's your opinion, and I have my opinion also.
Mr. Clardy. You applied for employment about that time; didn't
you?
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask you a question ?
Mr. Simon. At that time I was working.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you reside in 1946, after you returned
from the service ?
Mr. Simon. Sir, now, how many questions are pending on the floor?
Mr. Clardy asked
Mr. Clardy. You go right ahead and answer counsel's question.
I will straighten this out.
Mr. Simon. I don't — would you please repeat that question?
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you reside in Flint on your return from
the United States Army in 1946 ?
Mr. Simon. I either resided at 3314 Boulevard Drive or 1531 Leed
Street, Flint, Mich.
Why is because I believe at this period of time we moved, and I don't
specifically recall my exact address.
Mr. Tavenner. Then if I would read to you the address given on
this application at the time you filed it, possibly that would refresh
your recollection as having given that information to your employer.
Mr. Scherer. 3314 Boulevard Drive. Did you ever live at that
address ?
Mr. Simon. Yes ; I did, quite some time.
7180 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. Then the result is that here is an application which
meets your description as to the place of your residence, your name, the
place of your birth, the date of your birth, facts which you have testi-
fied to regarding the period of time you served in the Army and the
branch of the service, and you mean to tell the committee now, after
that, there is any doubt in your mind about your having signed and
submitted that application?
Mr. Simon. Sir, there is still a doubt in my mind.
Mr. Scherer. Maybe we can clear it up a little more.
What ship did you enter the United States on?
Mr. Simon. Sir, this was way back in 1932. I don't remember.
Mr. Scherer. Well, you will be required to fill out other applica-
tions and you certainly remember the ship.
Mr. Simon. Well, I will check my records then before I do indi-
cate
Mr. Scherer. All right. You have got your records there?
Mr. Simon. I don't have all of my records there.
Mr. Scherer. Would it refresh your recollection to tell you that
you entered on the ship Paris in 1932 ?
Mr. Simon. Sir, I would like to indicate again I arrived at this
country as a minor.
Mr. Scherer. I understand that.
Mr. Simon. I was a little over 9 years old, and this was 22 years ago,
approximately.
Mr. Scherer. Yes. But when you filled out this application you
knew what ship you had arrived on ?
Mr. Simon. Because I had the records with me. That is why.
Mr. Clardy. You still have those records, I take it ?
Mr. Simon. Here?
Mr. Clardy. I didn't say here, I just said: You still have them?
Mr. Simon. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. You were 23 when you filled this out.
So, you knew what you were doing when you filled it out, didn't you ?
Mr. Simon. Yes, because it was important that I have that infor-
mation in order for me to fill out such an application.
Mr. Scherer. What was your name when you came to this country ?
Mr. Simon. Paul Badal.
Mr. Scherer. And that is the name that is shown on this applica-
tion?
Mr. Simon. That was my mother's maiden name.
Mr. Scherer. And your height is what?
Mr. Simon. Approximately five eight,
Mr. Scherer. Five eight, * That is the height shown on here. How
much do you weigh ?
Mr. Simon. Now, or 22 years ago? Which do you want?
Mr. Scherer. How much do you weigh now ?
Mr. Simon. Considering the fact, sir — I would like to state the
reason why I may have lost a few pounds.
I was subpenaed in the month of February to appear in May. How-
ever, I didn't.
Mr. Clardy. How do you know you lost any — if you don't know
what is shown on this form? How much do you weigh now?
Mr. Simon. I don't know.
Mr. Clardy. You haven't been on the scales recently ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7181
Mr. Simon. No.
Mr. Clardy. Then you don't know that you have lost weight ; do
you?
Mr. Simon. I know I have lost weight, definitely.
Mr. Scherer. You wore glasses ; didn't you ?
Mr. Simon. Pardon?
Mr. Scherer. When you filed this application you wore glasses?
Mr. Simon. I don't always wear my glasses.
Mr. Scherer. You told them your vision at that time was 20-40;
didn't you ?
Mr. Clardy. And such hair as you have left is still black; isn't it?
Mr. Simon. Black and some gray.
Mr. Scherer. You have some references on here. Who is George
Badal?
Mr. Simon. Sir, again you are violating the first amendment of
the Constitution that guarantees everyone the freedom of association,
and I will not identify this person, under no circumstances.
Therefore, I invoke the fifth amendment of the Constitution and
will not testify against myself.
Mr. Scherer. Who is Mr. Minardo ? You knew Minardo ; or don't
you?
Mr. Simon. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Clardy. Do you have any more questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Simon, there appears just above the signature, Paul G. Simon,
a declaration, which is in this language, and I read from exhibit No. 1 :
I hereby certify that I ain not and will not become during the course of my
employment a member of the Communist Party or of the German-American
Bund or any other organization whose interests are adverse to the United States
of America", and undertand that membership in any of the above-mentioned
organizations will be cause for my immediate dismissal.
Were you a member of the Communist Party at any time during
your employment after February 1946, at the AC Spark Plug Division
of General Motors?
Mr. Simons. I respectfully refuse to answer that question — pre-
viously stated reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you a member of the Communist Party
at the time 3^011 executed this application for employment?
Mr. Simon. Same answer; same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Beatrice Churchill?
Mr. Simon. Same answer ; same reason.
Mr. Clardy. You mean same refusal to answer?
Mr. Simon. No ; same grounds that I previously stated.
Mr. Clardy. Well, you said same answer. You didn't answer.
You refused to answer before. I am just making it certain on the
record you are refusing to answer again.
Mr. Simon. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. On the .<?rounds nreviouslv stated?
Mr. Simon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Simon, Mrs. Churchill, who had been a member
of the Communist Party at Flint, Mich., and who worked at A. C.
Spark Plug, went into the Communist Party and became a member
of it at the instance of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in 1942.
7182 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
She testified fully before this committee, and she also testified in
the Smith Act trials in Detroit, where William Allen, Nat Ganley
and others were convicted.
In the course of her testimony before this committee she identified
you as a person known to her to be a member of the Communist Party
at Flint-
She also in the course of the testimony advised the committee that
in the middle of 1950, for security reasons, the Communist Party in
Flint was divided into small groups.
She said there were three persons assigned to her group in 1950.
She said they were Geneva Borod, Paul Simon and Henry Birdsall.
Were you a member of that security group of the Communist Party
in 1950 with Mrs. Churchill ?
Mr. Simon. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment and
refuse to testify against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. There is testimony before the committee that there
was a meeting of the young group of the Communist Party, that is,
younger members of the Communist Party, in September 1949, at a
farmhouse near Flint.
At this meeting Bolza Baxter and Jack White were among the
prominent leaders.
The purpose of that meeting, it was stated, was to disband this unit
or group of young Communists and to have them to go out and infil-
trate into various other organizations, including the Progressive
Party, the Labor Youth League, and other organizations.
You were identified as one of those present at that meeting in
September 1949 ; do you recall it %
Mr. Simon. Again I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment
and refuse to testify against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. At that meeting individuals were assigned to vari-
ous groups. For instance, Bolza Baxter was assigned to the Labor
Youth League ; Paul Simon was taken completely out of youth work,
according to this testimony, and assigned to trade-union work; is
that correct ?
Mr. Simon. I again claim the privilege of the fifth amendment and
refuse to testify against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee has in its possession a book prepared
by secretary of state for the State of Michigan, which is an alpha-
betical list of signers of Communist Party petitions in the State of
Michigan for the year 1946.
There appears in this list the name Paul G. Simon as one of the
petitioners, address 3314 Boulevard Drive, Flint, Mich.
Do you recall the act of signing a petition for the Communist Party
in the State of Michigan in 1946?
Mr. Simon. I again invoke the privilege of the fifth amendment and
refuse to testify against myself.
Mr. Scherer. When did you say you were naturalized ?
Mr. Simon. December 1948, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I think this is one of those cases we
should recommend to the Department of Justice to consider possible
denaturalization.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
the time you were naturalized as an American citizen ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7183
Mr. Simon. Would you please repeat that question again ?
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on
December 8, 1948, when you were naturalized at Flint, Mich.?
Mr. Simon. I again invoke the privileges of the fifth amendment
and refuse to testify against myself.
Mr. Clakdy. The Chair must direct that you answer that because I
am in entire agreement with Congressman Scherer's statement on it.
You, of course, have the right, the privilege, of invoking the fifth
amendment if you desire, but, just the same, the Chair feels that he
should direct you to answer it because you have accepted the hospital-
ity of our shores and if you refuse to answer that key question as to
whether or not at the time you applied for and eventually became a
citizen of the country, if at that time you were a member of a group
dedicated to the destruction of the very thing that you had to swear to
uphold, then, in my opinion, as a member of this committee, you have
violated that oath and appropriate action should be taken.
Now, you have the privilege of refusing to answer if you wish ; but
I am directing you to answer the question.
Mr. Simon. Sir, my parents came to this country to escape religi-
ous persecution, and I believe this is — that you are violating the Con-
stitution of the United States by implying the fact that I belong to
some kind of a conspiracy to advocate the overthrow
Mr. Clardy. We are not implying anything, sir, and you have, for
all time, an opportunity to deny flatly and categorically, connection, or
association, however remote, with the conspiracy that I have discussed.
Your silence, your refusal to answer, leaves in my mind only one
conclusion, and that is that the sworn testimony of the several wit-
nesses who identified you as an important cog in that conspiracy
was true ; and if that is the case you have no business in the United
States, and if I have anything to do with it, you will be expelled
from our shores, unless you can answer that question and the sub-
sequent questions, and unless you can justify and show that the sworn
testimony which does put you in that conspiracy is utterly false and
without foundation.
Now, this is your opportunity, and I don't want you to go forth
after this hearing and say you were deprived of a chance of saying
what you would or stating your side of the case because we are giving
you an opportunity to give any explanation you care to make, to make
any confession or disavowal that you wish.
Any more questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
What is your mother's name ?
Mr. Simon. My mother's name is Surria Simon.
Mr. Tavenner. S-u-r-r-i-a?
Mr. Simon. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not asking you as a witness to make any com-
ment on this matter, but, Mr. Chairman, in the list furnished the
committee by the secretary of state of the State of Michigan there
appear the following persons who signed the 1946 Communist Party
petition, in addition to the witness : Solomon Simon, 3314 Boulevard
Drive, Flint, Mich., and Surria — S-u-r-r-i-a — Simon, 3314 Boulevard
Drive, Flint, Mich.
Are you now a member
48861 — 54 — pt. 12 — —4
7184 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. ( !labdt. May I see that ?
Mr. Tavexxer. Excuse me.
Mr. Simon, are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Simon. I refuse to answer that question, sir, and invoke the
privileges of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavexxer. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Walter?
Mr. Walter. No questions.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Simon, the testimony presented before the com-
mittee at its Michigan hearings indicated you were one of those whose
duty on behalf of the Communist Party it was to infiltrate and to
spread the doctrines and ideas of the party in the labor unions.
We have had a great deal of sworn testimony on that subject.
I am now giving you an opportunity to tell us whether or not that
was true, and I am asking you and directing you : Is the testimony
that relates to your connection with the Communist Party in that
manner true or false?
Mr. Simon. I refuse to answer your question and invoke the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Any further questions, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Witness dismissed.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Henry A. Birdsall, Jr.
Mr. Clardy. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Birdsall. I do.
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated.
Is counsel representing him also ?
Mr. Wistraxxd. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. State your name for the record.
Mr. Wistrand. Bruce Wistrand.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY ALFRED BIRDSALL, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY
HIS COUNSEL, BRUCE WISTRAND
Mr. Tavexner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Birdsall. I would like to make a request that no pictures be
taken during this interview.
Mr. Clardy. Yes. Boys, get your pictures and we will get on with
the hearing.
Mr. Tavexxer. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Birdsall. Henry Alfred Birdsall, Jr.
Mr. Tavexner. Are you known by the nickname of Hank ?
Mr. Birdsall. By some people ; yes.
Mr. Tavexxer. Where and when were you born, Mr. Birdsall ?
Mr. Birdsall. In Jackson, Mich., at the Foote Hospital.
Mr. Tavexxer. What date?
Mr. Birdsall. May 10, 1923.
Mr. Tavexxer. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Birdsall. At the present moment ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7185
Mr. Tavenner. In what area?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. Mr. Tavenner, I have a wife and two small chil-
dren, and after what happened the last time in Flint, last May, I would
be very glad to give you that information, but I would like it to be
kept
Mr. Tavenner. Do you live in Flint ?
Mr. Birdsall. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Flint ?
Mr. Birdsall. Approximately 5 years and 3 months.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date, then, on which you moved to
Flint?
Mr. Birdsall. I don't recall absolutely, but I think it was about-
some time around the first or the middle of xVugust 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the purpose of your moving to Flint ?
Mr. Birdsall. To obtain employment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you obtain employment in Flint ?
Mr. Birdsall. Yes; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. At what place ?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. AC Spark Plug.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has been ?
Mr. Birdsall. Well, I had 6 years of grade school, first at the Trum-
bull, half way through the third ; then at Bennett Elementary School
through the sixth; West Intermediate from the seventh, part way
through the eighth ; then we moved outside the city and I went to a
small country school known as North Leonie, and I graduated from
that, and then I went to the high school in that area, the name of
East Jackson, and from that I went into the service, in the United
States Marine Corps.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date when you went into the service?
Mr. Birdsall. June 7, 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. And when were you discharged ?
Mr. Birdsall. I was discharged December 30, 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. And it was an honorable discharge, was it not ?
Mr. Birdsall. Certainly.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well.
Did you resume your educational training after coining out of the
Army ?
Mr. Birdsall. Yes ; I did. I went to Michigan State College.
Mr. Tavenner. How many years were you at Michigan State
College ?
Mr. Birdsall. Well, I was there 2 years. Then I went to Flint, and
just before my marriage I and my wife — my wife now; she wasn't
then — but we talked it over and I decided to go back to school. I
went 1 more year.
Mr. Tavenner. So that you had approximately 3 years ?
Mr. Birdsall. Approximately 3 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you specialize in any particular course ?
Mr. Birdsall. Well, I tried to get into veterinary medicine, but
they only take 64 a year and the first year they had around 350 appli-
cants and the second year around 500, I guess it was, and I didn't
get in.
7186 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
So, I went on into zoology and the last year I spent in animal
husbandry.
Mr. Tavenner. While you were a student at Michigan State College,
did you become aware of the existence of a group or cell of the Com-
munist Party at that place ?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. Yes ; I became aware.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted there with a person by
the name of James Zarichny — Z-a-r-i-c-h-n-y ?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. Yes ; Mr. Tavenner, I was acquainted with him.
Mr. Tavenner. Did James Zarichny request you to become a mem-
ber of the Communist Party at Michigan State College ?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. Would you state that question again, please ?
Mr. Clardy. Read it, Mr. Reporter.
Mr. Tavenner. Read the question, please.
(The reporter read the question as follows :)
Did James Zarichny request you to become a member of the Communist Party
at Michigan State College?
Mr. Birdsall. Well, it wasn't at Michigan State College that he
requested it, made the request.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, will you give us the facts, please?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me a minute.
Possibly I can help you some with that.
Were you a student at Michigan State College at the time that
James Zarichny spoke to you about becoming a member?
That will help to clarify it.
Mr. Birdsall. No. Actually, I wouldn't say I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, suppose, then, you give us in your own way
the facts, the full facts, regarding James Zarichny 's effort to recruit
you in the Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. I don't clearly understand this question. I mean
some things are kind of hard to explain here.
Mr. Clardy. Let me put a question to him, Mr. Tavenner.
Suppose you tell the conditions and the situation under which
you were brought into the party.
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand).
Mr. Birdsall. I will have to invoke the fifth amendment on that, sir.
Mr. Clardy. You don't have to do anything of the kind.
Mr. Birdsall. Well, I wish to.
Mr. Clardy. The question is : Are you going to refuse to answer on
the ground of the fifth amendment?
Mr. Birdsall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Let's put it a little more directly : Did you become a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Birdsall. I will have to give the same answer for the same
reason. i
Mr. Clardy. Oh, you don't have to do anything of the kind.
Mr. Birdsall. Well, I request to.
Mr. Clardy. You better say it directly, if you want the protection
of the amendment.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7187
You knew Jimmy Zarichny ; didn't you ?
Mr. Birdsall. I was acquainted with him. I have already answered
that.
Mr. Clardy. Yes.
And where was it you became acquainted with him?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. Yes, I was acquainted with him at Michigan State
College?
Mr. Clardy. Was that where you first became acquainted with him ?
Mr. Birdsall. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. But, as I understood your prior answer, you were
uncertain as to whether you were or were not a student there at that
time ?
Mr. Birdsall. At what time ?
Mr. Clardy. At the time you became acquainted with Jimmy
Zarichny.
Mr. Birdsall. I was a student there when I became acquainted with
him.
Mr. Clardy. Was the uncertainty whether he was a student?
Mr. Bdrdsall. No ; we were both students.
Mr. Clardy. What year was that, now ?
Mr. Birdsall. That was the summer of 1946.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know where he is now ?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. No. I can't say I'm sure at this moment where he
is, or even in the last few months.
Mr. Scherer. When was the last time you saw him ?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. The last time I saw him was at the hearings last May
in Flint.
Mr. Clardy. You were there ?
Mr. Birdsall. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Is he a member of the party ?
Mr. Birdsall. Who?
Mr. Scherer. This man whose name I can't pronounce.
Mr. Walter. Zarichny.
Mr. Birdsall. He used to live there at my hometown in college.
He was in the papers all the time, in one way or another.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Scherer, the spelling is : Z-a-r-i-c-h-n-y.
Mr. Walter. That is right.
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. Is that in the present tense ? You mean the present,
whether he is a member or not?
Mr. Scherer. Well, I will ask you whether you know he is a mem-
ber of the party today.
Mr. Birdsall. I don't know.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever know him to be a member of the party ?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. I request to invoke the fifth amendment on that
question.
Mr. Scherer. Now, I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
He can only invoke the fifth amendment as it pertains to himself.
Mr. Clardy. Yes, I direct that you answer that.
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
7188 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Scherer. Witness, you can't invoke the fifth amendment to
protect someone else.
You can try.
The fifth amendment provides against self-incrimination.
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Air. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. I still request to invoke the fifth amendment on that
question.
Air. Clardy. To your knowledge, was Zarichny a member of the
party when you were with him at the Flint hearing?
Mr. Birdsall. I don't know. I didn't ask him.
Mr. Clardy. Were you a member at that time ?
(At this point Mr. 'Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Clardy. You didn't have to ask him about that.
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. In a democratic country, sir, I don't believe govern-
ment committees should go around and ' go into people's political
beliefs or affairs, but I will answer that question, although I don't
like to particularly.
I was not a member of the Communist Party at that time.
Mr. Clardy. When did you relinquish your membership?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. I request to invoke the fifth amendment on that
question.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, Mr. Birdsall, weren't you ex-
pelled from the Communist Party either immediately prior to or
during the hearings in Michigan because the Communist Party
thought you were going to talk to the committee ?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. No.
Mr. Clardy. That didn't have anything to do with it at all ?
Mr. Birdsall. What?
Mr. Clardy. That didn't have anything to do with your expulsion
from the party ?
Mr. Birdsall. Not to my knowleldge.
Mr. Walter. Then why were you expelled ?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Reporter, your record doesn't show these pro-
longed conversations between counsel and the witness, does it?
The Reporter. Just the fact that there is a conference.
Mr. Scherer. It does show conference?
The Reporter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. When hey go longer than a minute, put the word
-'long" in there.
Mr. Walter. Or "prolonged."
Mr. Clardy. That v. ould be better.
If you overhear an" of the conference, don't put that in the record.
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. I have not said, sir, I was expelled.
Mr. Scherer. Were you expelled?
(At this point Mr Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Walter. Why do you have to look to your lawyer for the answer
to that one ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7189
You know better than lie does on that, don't you ?
Mr. Birdsall. I want to be sure on the question of waiver and such
as that.
I don't wish to be put in the position where I would have to give
information regarding other people.
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Scherer. How was your membership terminated from the
Communist Party?
If it wasn't by expulsion, how was it terminated ?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. I request to invoke the fifth amendment on that
question.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, may I get at that a little differently ?
Isn't it a fact that while the committee was in Flint you did, at least
for a brief period, entertain the idea of cooperating fully with this
committee and disclosing to us such information as you might have
about Communist Part} activities in Flint?
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Clardy. So you may understand what I am getting at, that was
brought to my attention because I was chairman of the subcommittee,
and I am sure the source of information that brought it to me was not
fooling me or kidding me at all.
I wish you would adhere to that. So, I am asking you if it isn't
a fact that you did entertain the idea of doing just that.
Mr. Birdsall. Could you possibly give me the source of this in-
formation ?
Mr. Clardy. Neve- mind. I am asking you the question. The
original source was yourself, sir.
(At this point Mr. Birdsall conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Birdsall. Sir, in what sense, do you mean cooperation ?
I believe I am cooperating today. I came here all the way from
Michigan. I have spent my own money — not in getting here, but for
food and lodging while I have been here, and lawyers' fees and loss
of work at the shop.
It has cost me, I estimated last night, around $510.
Just what do you mean by cooperating?
Mr. Clardy. Answering questions having to do with the safety of
your nation. That is what I have in mind.
I ask you this : If t'.iis committee should, offer you, as it did another
witness yesterday, immunity under the recently enacted statute, from
any probable prosecution, would you then reveal to the committee
all that you know about the Communist conspiracy in the area where
3tou do have some knowledge and acquaintanceship with it ?
(At this point Mv. Birdsall conferred whh Mr. Wistrand.)
Mr. Scherer. Now, just a minute. I assume counsel understands
the rules of the committee, that the witnes 7 is permitted counsel by
the committee for the purpose of advising £S to his legal rights, and
that extent only, and the answers to the factual matters must come
from the witness himself.
Mr. Birdsall. Well, sir, during World War II I was in the Marine
Corps, in the invasion of Guam and I wo Jima.
I went through quite a bit there. I don't believe too many people
have done much more for their country than I have, and certainly not
7190 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
to my knowledge have I ever advocated the overthrow of the Govern-
ment by force and violence, and belonged to any organization that did,
that is, not to my knowledge, and I can't say, in view of my wife and
two small children, at this time just what I would do under those
circumstances.
Mr. Clardy. Were you ever at any time a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Now, there is the acid test.
Mr. Birdsall. I will have to invoke the fifth amendment on that,
sir.
Mr. Clardy. You don't have to, but you are doing so ?
Mr. Birdsall. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, I am convinced you want to cooperate with
the committee and tell us what you know about the activities of the
Communist Party in the Michigan area. Let me ask you this :
Were any threats made by anyone that caused you to change your
mind ?
Are you under any fear of what might happen if you told this
committee what you know about the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Birdsall. The first part of your question — I don't want to
cooperate with this committee. I don't believe in the field in which it
is investigating. I don't believe in some of the methods that it has
taken, and there has never been any threats to me as to whether I
should cooperate fully or not, or what I should do regarding this
committee.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, do you have any more questions ?
I think that attitude on the part of the witness ought to pretty well
wind him up.
He does not believe in any investigation into communism.
What further do you have ?
Mr. Tavenner. I think I will not ask him any other questions, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Scherer. I was wrong in believing he wanted to cooperate.
Mr. Clardy. So was I.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Clardy. Did you say you had some more questions ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. I thought you said you had one or two.
I misunderstood you.
Do you have any questions, Congressman Walter ?
Mr. Walter. No questions.
Mr. Clardy. In dismissing you, witness, I think I should say the
last answer you gave is not only a disappointment to me, and I am sure
to the committee, but it indicates the wrong kind of thinking that you
better get out of your head.
If you think that the Communist conspiracy offers no danger to
you and your family and your nation, then you are certainly so far
wrong I am afraid there is no possibility of salvaging you.
I thought there was.
Witness dismissed.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you want to take a recess ?
Mr. Clardy. We will take a 5-minute recess.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7191
(Whereupon, at 3 : 20 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 3: 25 p. m.) .
(The hearing reconvened at 3:35 p. m., the following committee
members being present : Representatives Kit Clardy (presiding) and
Gordon H. Scherer.)
Mr. Clardy. The committee will be in session.
Call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ralph Fileccia— F-i-1-e-c-c-i-a— will you come
forward, please ?
Mr. Clardy. Hold up your right hand. _
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Fileccia. I do.
Mr. Clardy. Be seated.
Counsel will identify himself.
Mr. Rauh. Joseph L. Rauli— R-a-u-h— Jr., 1G31 K Street, Wash-
ington, D. C.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
TESTIMONY OF RALPH FILECCIA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
JOSEPH L. RAUH, JR.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Fileccia. Ralph Fileccia.
Mr. Tavenner. Where and when were you born, Mr. Fileccia \
Mr. Fileccia. Born in the State of Alabama, April 23, 1914.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Fileccia. City of Detroit.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Detroit?
Mr. Fileccia. Approximately — it was either in January — it was
either in December of 1933 or January of 1934.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the nature of your employment ?
Mr. Fileccia. I am on leave of absence from the Plymouth plant
of the Chrysler Corp.
I am now employed by local 51 of the UAW.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed by local 51,
UAW?
Mr. Fileccia. I believe it was in June of this year.
Mr. Clardy. What is the headquarters of local 51? Detroit?
Mr. Fileccia. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. And you are employed by them in what capacity ?
Mr. Fileccia. I'm the political action director for the local union
and educational director, and community service director.
Mr. Clardy. Just what does this local 51 embrace?
Mr. Fileccia. It embraces just the plant itself, the Plymouth Motor
Car Co.
Mr. Clardy. Just the one plant ?
Mr. Fileccia. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What other positions have you held in your local
union, that is, local 51, UAW, and when ?
Mr. Fileccia. I'll try to give you the answers, because they go back
many years.
48861— 54— pt. 12 5
7192 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Since either in late '37 or early '38, from that time until approxi-
mately 1949, or '50, I was the chief steward in the Plymouth plant.
I was a trustee m that period. I was also a vice president of the
local union in that period.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you vice president ?
Mr. Fileccia. I'm not sure of the dates, but I believe thev were in
the period of '49 and '50.
Mr. Tavenner. What positions did you hold between 1950 and
the time you took your present position in June of 1954?
Mr. Fileccia. As I told you, I was a chief steward until 1949 or 1950
I believe it was 1950, and I believe in 1952 and 1953 I was a plant
committeeman— what they call a plant committeeman.
Mr. Tavenner. In 1951 what position did you hold ?
Mr. Fileccia. If I'm right on my dates, I held no official position.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly, what
your formal educational training has been?
Mr. Fileccia. I attended grade schools in the State of Illinois to
approximately the sixth grade, and I almost completed, I'd say, the
11th grade m high school in the city of Iron Mountain, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Fileccia, are you now a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Fileccia. No.
Mr. Tavenner. I want to present to you certain activities which
our investigation showed that you have engaged in at one time or
another and base some questions upon that,
I have before me a copy of the August 31, 1947, issue of the Michi-
gan Herald, which was a Communist organ, and which shows that a
number of persons united in an endorsement of that paper at that
time.
Among them appears your name— Ralph Fileccia, vice president,
local 51.
I want you to examine it, only for the purpose of showing you the
nature of the endorsement.
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Tavenner. Now, the question I want to ask you is: Were you
a member of the Communist Party on the date of the issuance of that
document ?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. Mr. Chairman, at this point, I would like to use the
privileges of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you an issue of May 1, 1949, of the Michigan
Worker, and call your attention to an article entitled, "Thirty-five
UAW Leaders Hit Atlantic War Pact," in which it is stated there
would be 100,000 copies made for plant gate distribution.
Among those endorsing it, you will see the name Ralph Fileccia.
Will you point out the article and the name to Mr. Fileccia?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Tavenner. My question to you is : Were you a member of the
Communist Party at the time of the issuance of that article?
Mr. Fileccia. My answer to that question is I do not care to answer
because of the possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you now the June 6, 1949, issue of the Daily
Worker, which carries an article entitled, "Fight Medina's Police
State Plan, Michigan Leaders Urge."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7193
It is an article written by William Allan.
In the course of the article appears a paragraph, which begins:
"Ealph Fileccia, vice president, Plymouth Local 51, UAW," and pro-
ceeds to quote what you have to say about it.
Will you examine it, please, and state whether at that date, which
was June 6, 1949, you were a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Fileccia. Same answer ; same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. On June 19, 1919, according to the Michigan
Worker, a Communist publication, there is an article entitled, "Michi-
ganders Hit Jailing of Three Communists."
' There is an article that appears there, and Ralph Fileccia, vice
president of Plymouth Local 51 is quoted again.
Will you examine that and state whether or not you were a member
of the Communist Party when that paper was issued ?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. What was the date again, sir?
Mr. Tavenner. June 19.
Mr. Fileccia. Same answer ; same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. On August 24, 1952, issue of the Michigan edition
of the Worker, a Communist newspaper organ, there is an article
entitled, "Negro Labor Unity for Peace; Civil Rights PP Them,
meaning Progressive Party, I assume.
In the course of that article Ralph Fileccia, UAW leader, is again
referred to as a participating party.
Will you examine it and state whether on August 24, 19o2, you were
a member of the Communist Party ?
(At this point, Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. Tavenner. You were not in August 1952.
You will not answer as to whether or not you were a member on
June 19, 1949?
Mr. Fileccia. I gave an answer before.
Mr. Tavenner. At what date between June 19, 1949, and August
24, 1952, was it that you ceased to be a member of the Communist
Party?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr Fileccia. To my knowledge, as I recall, I have not been a mem-
ber since 1950, that I can recall. But I plead the privilege on any
other questions prior to that time.
Mr. Tavenner. On what date in 1950 ?
Mr. Fileccia. I will have to plead the privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you not vice president of your local 51
in 1949? , _„ _,
Mr. Fileccia. I thought I said it was 1949 and 19oO. I'm not sure
of the year involved.
Mr. Tavenner. All of these articles that I have referred to you as
the vice president of local 51 in 1949. T mnc •
Mr. Fileccia. But I am not clear of the dates. I believe I was m
1949 and 1950. n . j _ . ,
Mr. Tavenner. Did you sign a non-Communist affidavit when you
were vice president of local 51 ?
Mr. Fileccia. No ; I did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you refuse to sign it?
Mr. Fileccia. No ; I did not.
7194 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. Did your local take any action toward having its
officers sign the non-Communist affidavit?
Mr. Fileccia. As close as I can remember, they took action after
my term m office, some year or so after.
Mr. Tavenner. But while you were an officer, it had not taken
action to sign it?
Mr. Fileccia. No ; there was no action taken to si^n it
Mr. Tavenner. Bereniece Baldwin has testified before this com-
mittee m Detroit, m May 1954. She was dues secretary of the Com-
mUiniSt/ aity f^'JBaiAy years in Detroit, according to her testimony,
and had entered the Communist Party at the request of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation.
Are you acquainted with her ?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. I will have to plead the same as I did on other similar
questions.
Mr Tavenner. During the course of her testimony she was asked
what knowledge she had of the club of the Communist Party known
as the Plymouth Club. Her reply was :
P^mou^LocaT88' ^ that WaS ^ Communist Party members within the
It was the Plymouth Local of which you were an officer and had
been a member for many years, was it not ?
Mr. Fileccia. I have been a member of that local union since its
inception.
Mr. Tavenner. Now —
Question. Will you give us the names of the officers of that club, please?
That is the club of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Baldwin. In 1945 and 1946 Ralph Fileccia was chairman—
and then she proceeds to describe others.
Was her testimony true or false insofar as it related to you «
Mr. Fileccia. Mr. Tavenner, again I will have to or want to use
the privilege of the possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been affiliated in any manner with the
Communist Party since you took office in June of 1954, your present
(At this pointlMr. Fileccia. conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you told us in 1951 you held no position
m your union.
Mr. Fileccia. It was 1951 or 1952. I am not sure of the year,
lliere was 1 year
Mr. Tavenner. What was the position you held in your union prior
to your present position ?
Mr. Fileccia. I was a plant committeeman.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you affiliated with the Communist Party at
any time while you were plant committeeman?
Mr. Fileccia. No.
Mr. Tavenner. And then the office that you held prior to that time
was vice president, was it not?
Mr. Fileccia. Yes.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7195
Mr. Tavenxee. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time while you were vice president of your local i
Mr. Fileccia. At this point I will plead the privilege of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, that leads me to this question : Did your relin-
quishing the job or position of vice president of your union have any-
thing to do with your dropping out of the Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Eauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. Mr. Tavenner, I was defeated in an election for that
position.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time since you were defeated for election ?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Eauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. I am not clear of the dates of the election. I don't
recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what incident occurred which you can refer
us to as being the time when you can tell this committee under oath
that you were not a member of the Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Eauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. Mr. Tavenner, I think I tried to point out since some
time in 1950, early part of 1950, through there, and I can't testify
any
Mr. Tavenner. It is important to the committee to know in your
instance, you as a prominent member and leader in labor, as in many
other instances with other people, what it is that brought you, brought
about your break from communism.
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Eauh.)
Mr. Tavenner. May I add another statement before you answer the
question ?
Not only is it important to the committee, it is important to you
because it may furnish a test as to whether or not you are testifying
now in all sincerity and good faith on that subject.
Mr. Fileccia. First of all, Mr. Tavenner, I think the question, as
you posed it, in my opinion, is not a fair question.
Mr. Tavenner. It is quite a practical and logical question in the
light of your testimony.
(At this point, Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Eauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. I'll have to refresh my memory a little bit. I don't
believe at any point I testified to being a member of the Communist
Party, and I think in previous testimony that I did say — I talked about
somewhere early in 1950.
I think that should answer your question.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, we are trying to ascertain what it was that
caused the break, if there was a break, with the Communist Party.
Mr. Fileccia. I have never admitted at any time being
Mr. Clardy. Were you at any time a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Fileccia. I will refuse to answer that question on the ground
of possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Clardy. That means to me you were either a member of the
party at some time or there is something wrong in the processes by
which you reach that conclusion.
So I will ask this : What was it that took place in 1950
7J96 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Fileccia. I don't know why you presume guilt by the type of
question you ask ; in the first place-
Mr. Clardy. Never mind. I am asking a question.
What took place in 1950 that caused you to make some sort of an
a nnouncement or statement to your union or to your union officers that
you were not a member of the Communist Party.
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. Congressman, I at this point will again plead possible
self-incrimination.
Mr. Clardy. I will ask you the question :
Did there not come a time when you did make an announcement or
pronouncement or statement of some kind that you were not a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Fileccia. I will have to give you the same answer, Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Are you today in any way associated with any branch
or arm of the Communist Party?
Mr. Fileccia. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. Clardy. What do you mean, "To your knowledge" ?
Mr. Fileccia. Well, there might be a lot of things that could come
up later that might be construed as such.
I am not affiliated in any way with any arm or section of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Clardy. Are you a subscriber to or do you purchase the Daily
Worker? J
Mr. Fileccia. I do not directly. We get it in the local union for
educational purposes.
Mr. Clardy. Do you copy material from that and use it in the
work that you perform for your union ?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. If it is going to be used for ridicule, perhaps. I have
not seen any material used from the Worker or any other of that type
of paper in any of our publications.
Mr. Clardy. Would you tell us whether or not the position that
you have taken in the writings in your work, in your paper, in any way
parallels that of the Daily Worker ?
Mr. Fileccia. I think that is an unfair question. There are times
maybe they could parallel, but the intent was not to make them the
same.
There are times that they could parallel.
Mr. Clardy. Pure coincidence ?
Mr. Fileccia. That's right.
Mr. Clardy. How many times would you say it parallels
Mr. Fileccia. I don't know that it's ever happened.
Mr. Clardy. You are not sure ?
Mr. Fileccia. No. I don't know that it's ever happened.
Mr. Clardy. And at no time, then, have you ever made any public
announcement that you were not a member of the Communist Party ;
is that correct ?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. I'm not clear on that question.
Mr. Clardy. I will put it another way.
Have you ever at any time made a public pronouncement to the effect
that you are not a member of the Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7197
Mr. Fileccia. I believe I did just a few minutes ago.
Mr. Clardt. You did what?
Mr. Fileccia. Make a pronouncement.
Mr. Clardy. I am talking about prior to this hearing.
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. I have been asked on occasion maybe in the last year
or so, and I have denied it.
Mr. Clardy. Prior to that time were you asked the same question
and denied it ?
Mr. Fileccia. I don't recall being asked.
Mr. Clardy. Has the question ever arisen in connection with your
being promoted or given the position you now have in the union ?
(At this point Mr. Fileccia conferred with Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Fileccia. There were several people questioned when I was
placed in my present position.
Mr. Clardy. When was that? In 1950?
Mr. Fileccia. No; this year.
Mr. Clardy. I beg your pardon. It was.
Do you have any further questions, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Walter.
Mr. Walter. No questions.
Mr. Clardy. Witness dismissed.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Shirley Foster.
Mr. Clardy. Hold up your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Foster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated.
Counsel will identify himself, please.
Mr. Wistrand. Bruce Wistrand.
Mrs. Foster. I would like to request that no more pictures be taken.
I object to that photograph.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, after the testimony begins, no further pic-
tures will be taken.
The press has some rights and we do not intend to take from them
the right to take pictures of people who appear before us.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. SHIRLEY FOSTER, ACCOMPANIED BY HER
COUNSEL, BRUCE WISTRAND
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ?
Mrs. Foster. I'm sorry, I can't see you yet. Mr. name is Shirley
Foster.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mrs. Foster ?
Mrs. Foster. I was born on a farm in the State of Michigan.
Mr. Tavenner. What part of Michigan?
Mrs. Foster. Saginaw County.
Mr. Clardy. Whereabouts in Saginaw County?
Mrs. Foster. On a farm. It was not at any city, not at any town.
Mr. Clardy. Well, I am slightly familiar with Michigan geog-
raphy. I would like to have you identify it.
7198 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. Foster. It was in DeVorsey Township, if that helps you.
Mr. Clardy. On what highway, what trunk highway?
Mrs. Foster. It wasn't on a State trunkline. It wasn't numbered or
named. I don't believe it is today.
Mr. Clardy What small town are you near ?
Mrs Foster. I am near the small town of Freeland.
Mr. Clardy. Thank you. Will you tell the committee briefly what
your educational background and training has been?
Mrs. Foster. I was educated through the grade school, high school,
and a graduate of the University of Michigan, with a bachelor of arts
and master of arts degree.
Mr. Clardy. When was that?
Mrs. Foster. I received my bachelor of arts degree in 1930 and my
master of arts degree in 1931.
Mr. Tavenner. In what field did you specialize or did you take your
master's degree?
Mrs. Foster. I took my master's degree in the field of rhetoric,
which is a branch of the English department.
Mr. Tavenner. In education, you might say; in education?
Mrs. Foster. It was not the school of education. It was the College
of Literature, Science and the Arts.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that course you took special preparation for
entering into the teacher profession?
Mrs. Foster. It was additional training for the teaching profession.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you engaged in the teaching profession ?
Mrs. Foster. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, when and
where ?
Mrs. Foster. I have been a public school teacher in the State of
Michigan, at Flint, Mich., for 11^2 years continuous service.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you so engaged now ?
Mrs. Foster. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you last engaged in teaching at Flint?
Mrs. Foster. My last contract ended in the year 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. How have you been employed since 1043?
Mrs. Foster. Only occasionally, for fill-in or substitution jobs, only
when the request was made because there was a considerable lack of
substitutes and of teachers.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you at any time limited in your right to teach
at Flint on the basis of former Communist Party membership ?
(Mrs. Foster at this point conferred with Mr..Wistrand.)
Mrs. Foster. I have no knowledge that I was, sir. I have taught
continuously in that period.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you discharged at any time from teaching
or your request for a position denied?
Mrs. Foster. My contract was delayed at one time, but it was never
denied, to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. After it was delayed, was it issued?
Mrs. Foster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that?
Mrs. Foster. In the year 1937.
However, no issue of communism or political belief or anything
else of that nature was raised.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7199
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
any time while you were engaged in teaching in the State of Michigan?
(At this point Mrs. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Foster. Would you repeat that, please, the way you have it
worded?
Mr. Tavenner. I will change my question.
You stated you taught IIV2 years regularly up until 1943 and since
that time you have been engaged intermittently in supply work, in
teaching.
Now, since 1943, while you have been engaged in intermittent teach-
ing, in the nature of supply work, have you been a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mrs. Foster. Mr. Tavenner, when you ask me that question, you,
first of all, are making a question which, if I should answer it, either
way, would open up the discussion of people, because people have
been brought up and discussed in the area in which I live before this
committee.
In addition to that, let me say, with the utmost sincerity — I took
an oath in my teaching profession to support the Constitution of the
United States.
I took it sincerely and have never deviated from it.
Not only that, I had no — either occasion or interest in deviating
from it, either before or after.
I have always been committed to the teaching of democracy in the
public schools of the United States, in the support of democracy, in
the full application of the term within the school system.
There is no evidence that ctfuld be found, no honest, true evidence
to the contrary ; and that will have to be my answer.
Mr. Clardy. Well, that isn't an answer at all.
He asked you a direct question.
Will you repeat it, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Will the reporter read it, please?
(The reporter read the question, as follows:)
You stated you taught 11^ years regularly up until 1943 and since that time
you have been engaged intermittently in supply work, in teaching. Now, since
1943, while you have been engaged in intermittent teaching, in the nature of
supply work, have you been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Foster. I gave you my reasons.
I place my faith in the protection of the United States Constitution,
which I have always supported, and still support, and which I believe
this committee is violating. I place my faith in that, and my answer
will have to be protected by the fifth amendment, and I invoke the
fifth amendment to this.
Mr. Walter. In other words, you decline to answer the question of
whether or not you have been a member of the Communist Party while
you have been a schoolteacher on the grounds that to answer the
question might tend to incriminate you ?
Mrs. Foster. To answer the question would imply
Mr. Walter. Is that correct ?
Is my understanding correct ?
Mr. Foster. If you mean by incriminating me, sir
Mr. Walter. WTiat do you mean by it ?
You are the one who raised the question.
48861— 54— pt. 12 6
7200 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mrs. Foster. I mean it would tie me — I mean it might tie me — let
me correct it — because of associations and because of
Mr. Walter. It might tie you to what?
Mrs. Foster. It might tie me to — —
Mr. Walter. Moscow ?
Mrs. Foster. Absolutely not.
I have a loyalty to my own people and to my own Government.
I have a faith in democracy and I have a faith in the people of the
United States.
I have a great respect for them.
I believe in the functioning of democracy.
When you ask me that
Mr. Walter. You haven't been teaching the children that we live
in a democracy ; have you ?
Mrs. Foster. Are you telling me that we do not?
Mr. Walter. Why, of course I am. It was never intended that this
be a democracy. This is a republic.
Mr. Clardy. And there is a vast difference. Which have you been
teaching?
Mrs. Foster. Are you opposing democracy, sir?
Mr. Walter. Well, all right. Go ahead. Let it go.
Mr. Clardy. I want to ask her a question.
Are you in any way apprehensive that an honest answer to the ques-
tion propounded by counsel would in some fashion or other incriminate
you?
Mrs. Foster. There have been placed on the statutes laws which
many people regard as vague in their structure and uncertain in their
meaning.
Mr. Clardy. We are not interested in many people. We are inter-
ested only in you and what your apprehensions may be, and that is all
my question embraced.
Mrs. Foster. I agree with those people that that legislation is vague
and uncertain in its meaning.
Mr. Clardy. What legislation are you referring to ?
(At this point Mrs. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Foster. I have said I believe myself to be guilty of nothing.
I have invoked the fifth amendment and I stand on it.
Mr. Clardy. Well, my question was, because you mentioned it and
opened the door by so doing : What are the statutes about which you
complain and which you fear may be applied to you in a way that will
cause you to suffer some pains and punishment ?
Mrs. Foster. Sir, I am not a lawyer.
Mr. Clardy. Then, how do you know that there are such ?
(At this point Mrs. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Foster. On advice of counsel
Mr. Clardy. Has he given you the identification of any statute that
would in some way endanger your freedom if you answered that
question ?
(At this point Mrs. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Foster. I need not exchange with you my conversations with
my attorney.
Mr. Clardy. Well, let the matter pass.
It is quite obvious you a very confused person and do not know what
you are talking about.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7201
Will you proceed, Mr. Tavenner?
Anyone who doesn't know— a schoolteacher who doesn t know— the
difference between a democracy and a republic, I can understand why
you may be confused about the laws of the country.
Any 'more questions, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with a person by the name ot
Bereniece Baldwin, who was dues secretary of the Communist Party
for the State of Michigan ?
(At this point Mrs. Foster conferred with Mr. Wistrand.)
Mrs. Foster. I am not, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Mildred Pierce ?
ATvs Foster ^No sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Whose real name is Mildred Pearlstein?
Mrs. Foster. No, sir. •
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Baldwin, who kept the records tor the entire
State of Michigan, of the various officials of the Communist Party
throughout the State, testified before this committee on May 7, 1954,
and she described the organizational setup of the Communist Party
at Flint, Mich.
She stated that Sylvia Brant, Joe Brant's wife, was the financial
secretary at Flint.
Were you acquainted with Sylvia Brant ?
Mrs. Foster. Sir, I have lived long enough to have known quite
a few people or met quite a few people. There are a great many
different degrees of knowing people.
There are ways of hearing of people also. However, to any degree,
lesser or greater, I refuse to discuss them, and I stand on the privilege
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you will not give this committee
any information which would identify her as financial secretary of
the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Foster. I stand on the grounds given.
Mr. Tavenner. Continuing with Mrs. Baldwin's testimony
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir?
Mr. Clardy. May we help her a little bit ?
Perhaps she knew her under her nickname of Toby Baldwin.
Did you ever hear of that person ?
Mrs. Foster. I don't know her. I never have known her— to my
knowledge — not to my knowledge.
Mr. Clardy. Did you ever know the name Berenice Baldwin ?
Mrs. Foster. I have run into, across the path of a great many peo-
ple, but I do not know, I have no knowledge of that person myself.
Mr. Clardy. Go ahead.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive a communication from her at any
time ?
Mrs. Foster. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean you are uncertain in your memory as to
whether or not you did ?
Mrs. Foster. Well, as good as my memory is, I remember none.
Mr. Tavenner. Continuing with the testimony of Mrs. Baldwin,
Shirley Foster was the educational chairman of the Communist Party
at Flint.
7202 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Now, were you the educational chairman of the Communist Party
at Flint?
Mrs. Foster. I stand on the rights of the first amendment, of free-
dom of association, press, and speech, and also on the fifth amendment,
in my refusal to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in any activity within what are
termed "front organizations" at the insistence of the Communist Party
in Flint, or at the request of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Foster. Sir, any actions I have ever taken I have taken by my
own decision. I am responsible for myself and to myself, but nobody
else.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not asking to whom you may be responsible.
I am asking if Communist members weren't assigned to various Com-
munist-front organizations and you as a member of the Communist
Party were so assigned.
Mrs. Foster. Sir, that is a leading question and I stand on my
rights of the fifth amendment and refuse to discuss it.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you president of the Progressive Party at
Flint, or chairman, whichever you may term it?
Mrs. Foster. I believe, sir, you can find what public information
you like about that subject. I refuse to discuss it.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. The Chair so directs.
Mrs. Foster. I refuse, sir, on the basis of the fifth amendment be-
cause I believe there is an intent to identify either people or purposes
which are not necessarily true.
I refuse to discuss them and I stand on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you if you have any knowledge of the
subject of this testimony : This is a question which I asked a witness:
The committee has received evidence indicating that the Communists were
not successful on a national scale in infiltrating the NAACP. They were gen-
erally unsuccessful. Was this true of the Flint area?
The witness replied :
I would say in Flint they were generally successful.
Question. Will you tell the committee on what you base your statement?
The Witness. There were certain people assigned to work within the NAACP.
Everyone that was a Progressive was instructed to join the NAACP, but there
were certain individuals assigned to work within the youth groups of the NAACP.
These people were Louis Baxter, Dorothy Moscou, Geneva Olmsted Borod, and
Mary Olmsted Borod, and other members of the Progressive Party, such as
Morton Leitson — L-e-i-t-s-o-n — and Hanny Leitson; and Barry Blassingame,
Sbirley Foster, and Howard Foster, Chuck Shinn — S-h-i-n-n.
All of the Communists were instructed to be very active in the NAACP and
to support its program.
At meetings they would very often introduce resolutions that were to further
the Communist aims and very often they were successful.
Mrs. Foster. Sir, I have never been a part of any conspiracy or any
infiltration.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the NAACP ?
Mrs. Foster. I have been a member of the NAACP because I
believe in
Mr. Walter. He didn't ask you why. The answer is "Yes." Go
on and ask the next question.
Mrs. Foster. I am very proud of it, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7203
Mr Tu-enner. Were you requested by the Communist Party to
become a member of it and exert any influence in that organization m
behalf of the Communist Party ? , moD ,n
Airs Foster. Mr. Tavenner, during the war my husband was sta-
tioned in the South. I went to the South to visit him.
Mr. Tavenner. That is not an answer.
Mrs. Foster. It is, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. That is not responsive to my question.
Mrs. Foster. It is, sir. .
Mr. Clardy. The hour is late, and you are digressing. I direct you
to answer the question and answer it to the point. -
Mrs Foster. My sentence finishes: In the South I decided to ]om
the NAACP because of the conditions that existed. That was my
personal decision, as I said before.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist farty at tlie
time vou -joined the NAACP? . • , T
Mrs. Foster. I have refused to discuss the Communist Party, and 1
stand on the fifth amendment. .
Mr. Clardy. Then will you tell me whether or not the Communist
Party had anything to do with your j oining the NAACP ?
Mrs. Foster. I explained why I joined it, sir, even though you
interrupted me.
Mr Clardy. I understand all about that, but I am asking you now
whether the Communist Party played any part whatsoever, whether
big or little, in the decision to join. . , .
Mrs. Foster. I am a principled person. I ]omed it on my own prm-
cmles.
Air." Clardy. That isn't answering the question.
Did the Communist Party have anything to do with your reaching
the decision? . , . .
Mrs. Foster. When I say I joined it only on my own decision,
doesn't that answer you ? . T
Mr. Clardy. By that, if you mean they had no part in it, yes. ±s
that what you mean? . .
Mrs Foster. I don't care how you interpret it. It is a true answer.
Mr. Clardy. Pass on, Mr. Tavenner. The .hour is ; getting late
Mr Tavenner. The committee has been informed that m 1(J50 the
Communist Party in Flint, as in many other places throughout the
United States, was broken into small groups of 4 or 5 persons, tor
security reasons, and that one of those small groups consisted ot Louis
Baxter. Jean Baxter, Shirley Foster, Nadine Baxter and possibly 1 or
2 others. Were you a member of any such group ?
Mrs Foster, t repeat— as I did with all questions concerning the
Communist Party— I refuse to answer them and I stand upon the
protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask you: Are you now a member ot the
Communist Party ?
Mrs. Foster. I stand on the protection of the fifth amendment, as
an unfair, unjust question, because you do not ask me: Am I opposed
to— do I stand for violence, which, incidentally, my family has endured
at the instigation of this committee. I am opposed to force and
violence.
7204 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. May I say this to you: Every witness who has
taken this stand before this committee and has frankly advised the
committee of their experience in the Communist Party has been asked
to tell this committee what the circumstances were that led them
to make the decision to enter into the Communist Party. Every wit-
ness has been asked that question.
You will be given every opportunity — the committee is anxious to
know what led you to make such a mistake, if you did, and at the
same time the committee will give you an opportunity, as it has every
other witness, who has testified on the subject, to tell this committee
what led to their decision to get out of the Communist Party, if they
got out.
So, you will be given a very wide freedom in discussing those mat-
ters, if you answer the question.
Mrs. Foster. Sir, this is not a court. Anybody can call anybody
a Communist. To call them so implies certain guilt.
If I am guilty of something, I should be tried.
To call a person a Communist, therefore, when they are not on
trial, is to call them a name; it is not to let them stand on their
actions, their character, and record.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, that is where you are entirely wrong.
Mr. Clardy. May I ask you this: If you were a member of the
Communist Party, would you be ashamed to admit it ?
Mrs. Foster. I refuse to discuss the Communist Party, as I said
before.
Mr. Clardy. I thought you would.
Mrs. Foster. For the reasons given.
Mr. Clardy. Do you have any more, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir; I have no further questions.
Mr. Clardy. Any questions, any of you gentlemen ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Walter. No questions.
Mr. Clardy. Witness dismissed.
The committee will stand in adjournment until 10 a. m., tomorrow,
in this room.
(Whereupon, at 4: 50 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 10 a. m. Friday, November 19, 1954.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF MICHIGAN— PAKT 12
FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 1954
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of Committee on
Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. G.
PUBLIC HEARING
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to adjournment, at 10 : 25 a. m., in room 313, Old House
Office Building, Hon. Harold H. Velde (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman) , Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, and Francis E. Walter.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Thomas
W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk; Raphael I. Nixon, director of research;
Donald Appell and Courtney E. Owens, investigators.
Mr. Velde. The subcommittee will be in order.
Mr. Reporter, let the record show that present are Mr. Clardy, Mr.
Scherer, Mr. Walter, and myself as chairman of the subcommittee for
the purposes of this hearing.
Mr. Counsel, do you have a witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir ; I would like to call this morning Mr. James
G. Petroff.
Will you come forward, please, Mr. Petroff?
Mr. Velde. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn ?
In the testimony you are about to give before this subcommittee, do
you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Petroff. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES G. PETROFF, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
JOSEPH FORER
Mr. Tavenner. State your name, please.
Mr. Petroff. James Petroff.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have a middle initial ?
Mr. Petroff. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What is it?
Mr. Petroff. G.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel.
Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Forer. Joseph Forer, 711 Fourteenth Street NW., Washington,
D. C
7205
7206 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Petroff ?
Mr. Petroff. I was born in Detroit, April 27, 1928.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Petroff. I am staying in Detroit, but since I had to come here
I just moved out of the hotel.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been living in Detroit ?
Mr. Petroff. Since 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee, please, a brief resume
of your formal educational training?
Mr. Petroff. I went to high school and then I went to — I took up
a machine shop course.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you attend high school?
Mr. Petroff. In Bulgaria.
Mr. Tavenner. For how long a period of time were you in Bul-
garia ?
Mr. Forer. Excuse me, I do not think he finished his previous
answer with respect to his education.
Mr. Tavenner. I will come back to that. I interrupted him.
For how long a period of time were you in Bulgaria?
Mr. Petroff. I do not remember when I went there because I was
a kid, but I came back here in 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Who accompanied you when you left the United
States?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. My parents accompanied me.
Mr. Tavenner. Who accompanied you on your return to the United
States in 1946?
Mr. Petroff. Nobody.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen, or are you
a citizen by virtue of birth in this country ?
Mr. Petroff. I am a citizen by virtue of my birth.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you acquire citizenship in Bulgaria while you
were there?
Mr. Petroff. What citizenship do you mean ?
Mr. Tavenner. Dual citizenship? Did you become a citizen of
Bulgaria ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I just lived there.
Mr. Scherer. I do not think that is an answer to Mr. Tavenner's
question, that you just lived there.
I think he should answer whether he acquired citizenship or not.
If he doesn't know, he should say so.
Mr. Velde. The Chair agrees.
Mr. Petroff. Not that I know of.
Mr. Walter. You did not serve in the Bulgarian Army?
Mr. Petroff. No.
Mr. Tavenner. How old were you when you returned to the United
States, just about 18 ?
Mr. Petroff. About 18.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you register in Bulgaria for military service?
Mr. Petroff. No; I didn't,
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I interrupted you in your narration of your
educational training. Will you proceed, please?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I took up machine shop and I went to Wayne
University.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7207
Mr. Tavenner. When did you attend Wayne University ?
Mr. Petroff. The last two terms ; not this term, but the last two.
Mr. Tavenner. For how long a period were you at Wayne ?
Mr. Petroff. About 7 months.
Mr. Tavenner. And what month and year was it that you left
Wayne University ?
Mr. Petroff. That was, I think, July of this year. I do not recall
the exact date.
Mr. Tavenner. What has been your employment since the com-
pletion of your work at Wayne University in July 1954, if any ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I worked 1 week only and then I lost my job
due to the publicity that I got in the newspapers and clue to the
pressure upon my employer.
Mr. Tavenner. What publicity is it that you refer to ?
Mr. Petroff. False publicity that I got in the newspapers.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that?
Mr. Petroff. That was in September.
Mr. Tavenner. You say you lost your employment by reason of
that?
What was your employment?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I was driving a truck.
Mr. Tavenner. For whom ?
Mr. Petroff. I don't remember the name. I only worked for a
week.
Mr. Tavenner. You don't remember yovoa employer back as short
a period as September ?
Mr. Petroff. It is a trucking company.
Mr. Tavenner. Located where?
Mr. Petroff. Located on Ferry Street in Detroit.
Mr. Clardy. A local trucking company or one engaged in over-the-
road service?
Mr. Petroff. Local, delivering bricks.
Mr. Tavenner. How long was that employment? Did you work
there constantly for them for a period of weeks ?
Mr. Petroff. I think it was about 2 or 3 weeks, but not full weeks.
I worked about 2 or 3 days a week and I think it was for a period
of about 3 weeks.
Mr. Clardy. How many days did you work on the week when you
were arrested by the Detroit police ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I was — one day that week.
Mr. Clardy. The rest of the days you were on the picket line at the
Square D strike ?
Mr. Petroff. I was arrested on Tuesday and I worked Monday,
the previous day.
Mr. Clardy. Had you been on the picket line on the Square D strike
the previous week ?
Mr. Petroff. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. The publicity you spoke about grew out of your arrest
that I have just mentioned ?
Mr. Petroff. That is right.
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I was on the picket line because I believed the workers
at Square D had legitimate reasons and I sympathized with them and
that is why I went there.
7208 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Scherer. You never worked for Square D, is that right?
Mr. Petroff. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. How long were you on the picket line ?
Mr. Petroff. I did not count the days.
Mr. Clardy. Well, roughly.
Mr. Petroff. Roughly, about 2 weeks.
Mr. Clardy. During the time when the violence occurred out there ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, the Detroit police instigated many violences and
I don't know about which one you are talking.
Mr. Clardy. Well, you know that there were reports daily in the
newspapers concerning violence at the Square D plant and about the
fact that a few arrests were made even prior to the time that you were
arrested ; don't you ?
Mr. Petroff. Yes, and there was some violence after I was arrested.
Mr. Scherer. You say all of the violence was instigated by the De-
troit police?
Mr. Petroff. In my opinion, it was.
Mr. Scherer. None by the strikers ?
Mr. Petroff. In my opinion, none.
Mr. Scherer. None by the Communists who had joined the picket
line?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I did not see any pickets carrying signs on his
nose, and his hair is not red. They call them reds, but to me they
may be blondes or brunettes, so I don't know what you mean by
Communists.
Mr. Clardy. How did you happen to get in the picket line?
Mr. Petroff. Because I sympathized with the workers.
Mr. Clardy. Do you mean to tell me that you, a stranger in this
company, went out and joined the crowd?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Tens of thousands of organized labor went there who
did not even work at Square D.
Mr. Walter. The fact of the matter is that you were sent there to
join the picket line by certain Communist Party leaders, were you not?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Well, I already stated that I went there because I sym-
pathized with the workers. Nobody sent me there.
Mr. Walter. Did any member of the Communist Party, any Com-
munist Party functionary, ask you to go there and assist in putting
on this demonstration ?
Mr. Petroff. Nobody asked me to go there. Nobody insisted
for me
Mr. Walter. At the time you joined the Communists or the picket
line, were you a member of the Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Well, I refuse to answer for the following reasons :
No. 1, this committee is a "lame-duck" committee and, in my
opinion, it is sitting illegally.
Mr. Walter. Well, now, you can call it a "lame-duck" committee all
of your life, but the person who propounded the question will be a
member of this next Congress.
Mr. Petroff. No. 2, I believe its purpose today is as it has always
been, to harass the workers and the people of this country and to give
every possible assistance to big business.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7209
No. 3, I refuse to aid this committee which I honestly believe is
determined to destroy the constitutional rights of the American peo-
ple. I just won't be a part of that.
No. 4, not only is this committee a "lame duck" committee, but such
members as Mr. Clardy from my own State of Michigan have been
mutilated.
Mr. Clardy. Mutilated ?
Mr. Petroff. That is right. I mean you are out of the political
picture.
No. 5, your purpose today, in my opinion, is to weaken the labor
movement on the verge of the coming 1955 negotiations. It would
be silly to think that I would help you to do this.
Mr. Walter. May I interrupt you at this particular point?
What particular labor movement are you identified with?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I was a member of the CIO.
Mr. Walter. I am talking about now. You are talking about the
reasons for not answering this question.
What labor movement are you identified with ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, right now I am not a member of any union.
Mr. Walter. All right.
Mr. Scherer. But you are a member of the Communist Party right
now ; aren't you ?
Mr. Petroff. I am giving you the reasons why I am not answering.
Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, I think we have wasted enough time.
Mr. Velde. I think so, too. Are you actually going to rely on the
fifth amendment ?
Mr. Petroff. I am giving you my answers.
Mr. Clardy. We have heard all this time and time again.
Mr. Petroff. No. 6, there is no question that the primary reason
for this committee calling me here in the first place was because of
my active participation in the Square D strike in Detroit and which
a member of this committee, Mr. Clardy, tried to break by hook or
crook, and I am happy to say the workers won.
No. 7, since the inception of this committee in 1938, it has strived
by the use of paid informers and stool pigeons, and without these
characters in my opinion it would be impossible for this Un-American
Committee to exist.
Mr. Clardy. How many pages does that contain ?
Mr. Petroff. Only two and a half more.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, since he has not yet come down to
an answer that is acceptable to the committee, I ask that he be in-
structed and given the opportunity to say yes or no or refuse to
answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment, and that we get down
to our business.
Mr. Scherer. I do not think he should be given any more time
to give any more such reasons. He should invoke the fifth amend-
ment and proceed to the next question.
Mr. Velde. Will you answer the question, or refuse to answer, or in-
voke the fifth amendment, please ?
Mr. Petroff. I am giving you my answer.
Mr. Scherer. I am asking that counsel be instructed to proceed
with the next question.
7210 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
This man has had opportunity enough to answer this question. If
he wanted to invoke the fifth amendment, he could, and I do not in-
tend to listen to this harangue day after day.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Petroff. I haven't finished my answer.
Mr. Tavenner. May I suggest that you direct him to answer the
question.
Mr. Velde. You are directed to answer the question propounded to
you.
( At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Since I am not given the opportunity to express nrj
opinion, I would have to rely and invoke my privileges under the first
amendment, which guarantees every citizen freedom of speech,
thought, assembly, or association.
Mr. Walter. That is enough. We know what is in the first amend-
ment.
Mr. Petroff. And I invoke my privileges under the fifth ai.
ment not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Clardy. At the time of the Square D strike in which you par-
ticipated as a picket, and as I understand it you were not a member of
any labor union, is that correct?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Would you repeat the question?
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Reporter, will you read the question?
(The reporter read the question as follows :)
Mr. Clardy. At the time of the Square D strike in which you participated as
a picket, and as I understand it you were not a member of any labor union, is
that correct?
Mr. Petroff. Well, at that time I was unemployed and I do not
think I was a member of any union.
Mr. Walter. What labor union had bargaining rights with
Square D?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. United Electrical Workers, the best union.
They have the highest wages. They get higher wages than any
other corporations and they have the best contract.
Mr. Clardy. But they were still not satisfied ?
But to come back to what I was asking about, do you know David
Mates?
Mr. Petroff. Maybe I have met him on the picket line. I don't
know.
Mr. Clardy. You did meet him there, didn't you ?
Mr. Petroff. I said maybe.
Mr. Clardy. I said didn't you, as a matter of fact?
Mr. Petroff. Well, nobody has introduced himself to me on the
picket line.
Mr. Clardy. Well, I will put it more directly.
Didn't David Mates have something to do with your going on
the picket line ?
Mr. Petroff. No person by that name has anything to do
with
Mr. Clardy. Do you know Johnny Gojack?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7211
Mr Petroff. I refuse to answer for the reasons I gave before.
Mr! Clardy. Do you know whether Johnny Gojack was on the
picket line at the same time you were?
Mr Petroff. I refuse for the same reasons.
Mr. Clardy. You are invoking the fifth amendment i
Mr. Petroff. That is right, and the first, too.
Mr. Clardy. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Scherer. May I ask a question?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer.
Mr Scherer. You were driving a truck, though, at the time you
were on the picket line, not at the very date you were on the picket
line?
Mr. Petroff. That is right. , ,.
Mr. Scherer. You were not even a member of the teamsters union
at that time, were you ? .
Mr. Petroff. Well, I think I had to say m 3 months before 1
ionie the union. . .
Mr. Scherer. You were not a member of the teamsters union «
Mr. Petroff. No. . .
Mr.' Tavenner. Mr. Petroff, you spoke of the incident o± your
arrest. When did that take place ?
Mr Petroff. I believe that happened on September 2Z.
Mr.' Tavenner. What were you doing at the time of your arrest?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I was driving my car.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you going?
Mr. Petroff. On the east side of Detroit.
Mr. Tavenner. For what purpose?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr Petroff. I was following a couple's cab which I wanted to
persuade not to work at Square D, because I did not think it is union
policy. It is not fair to a union brother to scab on him.
Mr. Tavenner. What means did you intend to employ to persuade
those persons from not working at Square D ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I meant to employ the means of talking to them.
Mr. Tavenner. How many did you take with you to help you to
persuade them by talking? .,,,,, x
'<At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Well, there were several other speakers.
Mr. Tavenner. How many?
Mr. Petroff. Four, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. So it took five of you to exert this form ot influence
that you proposed to exert; didn't it?
Mr. Petroff. To talk to them ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Did you catch them ?
Mr. Petroff. We got next to them but we did not get a chance to
talk to them.
Mr. Clardy. Because you were arrested ?
Mr. Petroff. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. How far did you follow them ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I did not measure the distance.
Mr. Tavenner. Wasn't it completely across the city that you fol-
lowed them ?
7212 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Petroff. You mean that they were out of town ?
.Mi-. Tavexxer. No; you did not succeed in driving them entirely
out of town, I understand— just from one side of the city to the other;
isn't that true ?
Mr. Petroff. The point where we took off to follow them to the
point where we almost caught up with them is on one side of the city.
So it cannot be from one side to the other.
Mr. Tavexxer. Did they call for police protection ?
Mr. Petroff. I don't know if they did.
Mr. Tavexxer. You were apprehended by the police and forced to|
drive to the curb; were you not?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Yes.
Mr. Tavexxer. Did you have any weapons of any kind in the car?
Mr. Petroff. Well, there was a— something that I consider a toy,
but the police department calls it a weapon.
Mr. Tavexner. What was it ?
Mr. Petroff. To my knowledge, that was an air pistol, which I
consider a toy.
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
That air pistol I use to shoot turtles when I go fishing.
Mr. Clardy. It is lethal to the turtles.
Mr. Petroff. And that so-called weapon was also in the same trunk
which contained my fishing box, so why didn't the police say they also
found a fishing box.
Mr. Clardy. They said a lot of things, but what other things were
in the car ?
Mr. Petroff. I had my clothes in the car.
Mr. Clardy. No other weapon in the car ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I don't know what you or the police department
may consider a weapon. They may say that a windshield wiper is a
weapon.
Mr. Clardy. I wanted to be sure. You are taking the position, so
far as you are concerned, that there was no other weapon in the car.
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. That is right.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavexxer. Was the fishing tackle in the car?
Mr. Petroff. In the trunk.
Mr. Tavexxer. Where was the pistol?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Scherer. Your attorney doesn't know where the pistol was.
He wasn't there, I am sure.
Mr. Petroff. I ^Yould like to ask him because I do not want you to
put me in jail for nothing.
Mr. Scherer. You should have been in jail a long time ago.
Mr. Petroff. Well, you should investigate the things that causes
unemployment so that people like me and other unemployed workers
can get a job.
Air. Walter. The thing that disturbs me, and I know nothing about
that strike, is why your interest was so great in this matter. You were
not employed there.
Mr. Petroff. I am very glad to tell you. Because I believe that if
the workers get better contracts, for instance, like 30 hours work and
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7213
40 hours pay, there would be more jobs open and then I would be able
to get a job. . . . , . .', •,-,
Mr. Walter. In other words, you were assisting in this strike with
the hope that by your activities you might find employment for
yourself ?
Mr. Petroff. Providing that they get a good contract, there would
be jobs open. ...
Mr. Scherer. And engaging in violence to prevent other citizens ot
Detroit from working in that plant when they wanted to?
Mr. Petroff. I did not say I engaged in violence. You are putting
words in my mouth.
Mr. Scherer. You and your crowd were engaging m violence, it
you did not actually get a chance to use that gun.
Mr. Clardy. Are you sure you never engaged in any violence while
on the Square D picket line %
Air. Petroff. Well, the cops had us run off the sidewalk a few
times and that may be violence.
Mr. Clardy. That is all that you did while on the picket line?
Mr. Petroff. That is all I did.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, you never got an answer to your ques-
tion as to where the gun was in the car.
Air. Tavenner. No, I realize that.
Where was the gun in the car when the officers apprehended you ?
Mr. Petroff. The gun, the so-called gun, was in a suitcase which
was in the trunk of the car.
Mr. Tavenner. What else was in the trunk of the car besides the
fishing tackle and the suitcase and the pistol ?
Mr. Petroff. Other than tools, I had my clothes, my underwear, and
shirts.
Air. Tavenner. We are not interested in that. What else?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I had some books in the car, too, like some
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of the books ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, one book was algebra, which the Detroit sub-
versive squad kept for almost a week trying to figure out some code
from some imaginary place. They kept my algebra book in there and
they also kept my English book called Writing From Observation.
Mr. Tavenner. You think that the police thought there was some-
thing subversive about your algebra book and your English book?
Mr. Petroff. That is what I imagine.
Mr. Clardy. Those books were returned to you by the police
department ; were they not ?
Mr. Petroff. Yes, after my lawyer had to call them up and insist.
Mr. Clardy. The other things were not ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. There were still other things that they did not return.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of those things that were not
returned ?
Mr. Petroff. Some pictures that I had.
Air. Tavenner. You mean photographs ?
Mr. Petroff. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not interested in those. Was there anything
else?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
7214 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Petroff. Yes, there was something else ?
Mr. Tavenner. What?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Well, now, I refuse to tell for the same reasons I gave
before.
Mr. Tavenner. You refuse to tell what was in the trunk of your car ?
Mr. Petroff. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. For what reason ?
Mr. Petroff. For the same reasons I stated before, because I do
not agree with this committee and because this committee is a lame
duck committee and in my opinion it is sitting illegally.
Mr. Tavenner. I ask that the witness be directed to answer the
question.
Mr. Velde. I direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Petroff. And I invoke my privilege under the first and under
the fifth amendment not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Scherer. I want to know, Mr. Tavenner, what did they take
from his car.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I have subpenaed the material from
the police department which was taken from the trunk of the wit-
ness' car and it had been produced before the committee, and I will
ask the investigator to place it out here so that we can see it and ask
the witness questions.
I would like to offer the entire matter as one batch of papers and
documents into evidence and ask that it be marked "Petroff Exhibit
No. 1."
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it is submitted in evidence.1
Mr. Petroff. I see that you have my papers from Bulgaria, which
are equivalent to an American social security card and were my work-
ing papers, and I ask you to return them to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you see anything else that belongs to you besides
your working papers?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reason I gave before.
Mr. Scherer. What is the nature of that material ?
Mr. Tavenner. I have here the Communist Manifesto by Karl
Marx and Frederick Engels.
Where did you obtain that document, Mr. Petroff ?
Mr. Petroff. I never did say that I had it.
Mr. Tavenner. You refuse to say whether you did have it or not ?
Mr. Petroff. I gave you the reasons.
Mr. Clardy. How did it get in your car ?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the following reasons
Mr. Clardy. Are you raising the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Petroff. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I see here also The Communist Party by Pettis
Perry.
Mr. Petroff. Did you read it ?
Mr. Tavenner. When did you last read it ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I refuse to answer because
Under my first amendment guaranteeing me — and the fifth amend-
ment.
1 Retained in the files of the committee.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7215
Mr Tavenner. The next document is entitled "Nine Questions
About the Communist Party Answered by Eugene Dennis.
Are you acquainted with Helen Simon Travis « _
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. lorer.)
Mr Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons.
Mr Tavenner. Here is a document entitled '"The Truth About
Guatemala" by Helen Simon Travis, who was a fifth-amendment wit-
ness before this committee.
Mr. Petroff. Well, I am proud to say that I am a fifth-amendment
witness because I am sticking to my constitutional rights.
Mr Walter. What constitution are you talking about i
Mr Petroff The fifth amendment, not to be a witness against my-
self, and also the first amendment, guaranteeing my rights to read
any book, even the Communist Manifesto, as well as the YY all Street
Journal. t ,.,-,, p q
Mr. Scherer. Is the Wall Street Journal in that group of papers*
Mr. Tavenner. Did you tell the police authorities of Detroit at the
time of your arrest that some friend of yours or some person had
o-iven you these documents for you to read ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr, Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Tavenner. I have before me three copies of the American Way,
which is the draft program of the Communist Party among them.
Mr. Clardy. That is the document that says it is possible to have
peaceful coexistence with the Communists, isn't it \
Mr. Scherer. It says a lot of things.
Mr. Tavenner. I find two copies of an excerpt taken from the
Daily Worker of Wednesday, February 4, 1953, entitled "The FBI
Against the Bill of Eights." .
Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that I will take the time to read all
of those but I will read a few more.
Organizing the Party for Victory Over Reaction, by Alexander
Parker.
Mr. Walter. May I see that one %
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. .
The next one is entitled "The CIO Today" by George Morris, who
is the editor of the Daily Worker.
I have a number of issues of Political Affairs. There are practically
50 copies of the September 1954 issue of the March of Labor.
What was your purpose in having these documents, all these issues
of the March of Labor.
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Can I see the cover on that magazine?
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have it ?
Mr. Petroff. I gave you my reasons before for refusing to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, if you are not going to answer that question
about it, there is no reason.
We have also here numerous other issues of the March of Labor ;
October 1953, two copies; September 1953; June 1953; May 1953;
August 1953 ; April and March 1953 ; October, November, and Sep-
tember issues for 1952.
7216 COMMUXIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
I find here also a number of copies of the Soviet Union for the
issues of December, November, March, February, and January 1954.
Mr. Petroff. I see cherryblossoms on the back and I see a Christ-
mas tree there.
Mr. Tavexxer. It is a document published in the Soviet Union, and
with reference to these issues of the March of Labor, I would like to
quote something here, call the chairman's attention and the commit-
tee's attention to the fact that the owner and editor is John Steuben,
and as you well know the committee has been investigating for some
period of time the March of Labor.
Mr. Steuben's denaturalization proceedings are now pending. He
was subpenaed before this committee but presented a medical certifi-
cate and because of his alleged condition of health, he has not yet
been heard.
One of the directors of the campaign instituted in April of this year
for the distribution of this paper is a person by the name of Esther
Letts.
"Were you acquainted with Esther Letts ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the previous reasons I have
given.
Mr. Tavexxer. As a matter of fact, Mr. Petroff, weren't you en-
gaged in the business of distribution of this material which has been
called to the committee's attention and to your attention ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I have given
before.
Mr. Tavexxer. "Were you acquainted with Carl Marzani?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I have given
before.
Mr. Tavexxer. I hand you a paper taken from the trunk of your
car at the time of your arrest, addressed to Carl Marzani.
It is a carbon copy of a paper with the name James Petroff at the
foot of it.
Will you examine it, please ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Tavexxer. Did you write and transmit the original of that
letter to Mr. Marzani.
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse on the previous grounds.
Mr. Tavexxer. I desire to offer the document in evidence and re-
quest leave to withdraw it and leave a copv in its place and have it
marked "Petroff Exhibit No. 2."
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be so ordered.1
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to read the letter into evidence, Mr.
Chairman.
In the upper right-hand corner it is dated August 24, 1954, and
the letter reads as follows :
Dear Mr. Marzani : I understand that you will be able to forward the enclosed
check and this request to the March of Labor — I do not know their new address
in New York.
1 Retained in the files of the committee.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7217
Please send me 100 copies of the latest issue, September. Would appreciate
delivery before Labor Day.
Thank you for your courtesy — it is greatly appreciated.
Sincerely yours,
James Petroff.
I hand you a slip of paper which was taken from the top of your
car and which was delivered as part of the exhibit by the Detroit
police, and I will ask you to identify it and state to the committee
what it is.
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the previous reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer it in evidence under the same con-
ditions and ask that it be marked "Petroff Exhibit No. 3."
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be so ordered.1
Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, this is a list showing the order
of various publications by you ; isn't it?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer on the previous grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. The top of it says that it is an order number. The
date is July 24, 1954.
It states: "Ship to M"; whoever that may be. It lists numerous
items.
It says: "Seven PA." That means political affairs; does it not?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer on the grounds on the previous
statement.
Mr. Tavenner. And then it says: "Fourteen SU." That means
Soviet Union ; does it not?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer on the previous grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. It has numerous other initials that I am unable
to determine what they may mean: "Five EN." What does that
mean ?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I have given
before. \
Mr. Tavenner. Then it says : "Eight WR," which may mean World
Review, copies of which are among these documents.
It shows a circle in the left-hand corner, the letter "D," and also
"$2" and the letter "W" and also the figure "$1.20."
Did that represent collections that you had made toward payment
of the order?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I have given
before.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a document entitled "The Walter-Mc-
Carran Law, Police State Terror Against Foreign-Born Americans,"
by Abner Green.
This is one of the documents obtained from the exhibit.
Mr. Petroff. May I read it?
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever seen it before ?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Scherer. Do you think there is something subversive about the
Walter-McCarran Act?
Mr. Petroff. Pardon?
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you receive that document ?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
1 Retained in the files of the committee.
7218 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Walter. Why has there been this continued activity on the part
of aliens or naturalized citizens against this law?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Well, because there are some clauses in it that dis-
criminate because of race, color, and creed.
Mr. Walter. The fact of the matter is that the only difference be-
tween a naturalized citizen and a native citizen under the terms of this
iniquitous Walter-McCarran Act is that an alien-born, naturalized
citizen may be deported within 5 years after he becomes a citizen of
the United States and the joint committee that wrote this law felt
that the least that could be asked of aliens was that they remain loyal
to the United States for a period of 5 years.
Mr. Petroff. Well, I know that it discriminates against colored
people coming from Jamaica.
Mr. Walter. No; it does not discriminate against colored people
coming from Jamaica because we gave to Jamaica the same status that
Australia and New Zealand and all of the other British possessions
had, for the first time.
Those countries have quotas of 100 and it doesn't discriminate
against Negroes at all, because people from Martinique and all those
other off-shore countries can come in without regard to quotas.
Mr. Petroff. I believe, before this law was put into power, more
colored people were allowed to come from Jamaica and today it is
limited.
Mr. Walter. So you are opposed to the law because there are fewer
Jamaicans coining in than before. I wish we could do something
more about some other situations that I know about.
Mr. Petroff. I wish you would investigate unemployment.
Mr. Walter. Here is a circulation entitled "The American Com-
mittee for the Protection of the Foreign-Born," and it is an attempt
to try to bring about a repeal of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
What do you know about the money that has been raised for this
purpose ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I know nothing.
Mr. Walter. Well, you had in your possession these blanks for the
collection of money. How much money did you collect?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I never admitted I had it and I refuse to answer on
the same ground I have given before.
Mr. Walter. This was found in your automobile. Did you ever
have this solicitation blank?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Walter. In other words, you refuse to answer the question of
whether or not you were engaged in soliciting funds for the repeal of
the basic immigration nationality code because to answer the question
might incriminate you ?
(At this~point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for all the reasons I gave before.
Mr. Scherer. Before we go any further, Mr. Chairman, there hap-
pen to be two representatives of the Department of Justice in the hear-
ing room today and I would like to make this suggestion : That to me,
the evidence clearly indicates that in all possibility this witness has
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7219
violated the Smith Act and I want to make that observation before
those gentlemen leave.
Mr. Tavenner. I want to call to your attention a paper, an English
edition of For a Lasting Peace for a People's Democracy, Bulgarian
Organization Bureau of Communists and Workers Party, the issue
of April 23, 1954.
Will you explain to the committee how you came in possession of
that paper ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. I will ask you to explain how you came into pos-
session of the Party Voice, a bulletin issued by the New York State
Communist Party, issue of March 1953 ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Tavenner. Here is a German-language paper under date of
April 30, 1954.
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Tavenner. It may not be German. I don't know what it is.
Will you state what it is ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. It may be Bulgarian.
Now, while you were in Bulgaria, did you become a member of an
Organization called the DSNM ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. What is the DSM, whatever it is ?
Mr. Tavenner. It is a youth organization in Bulgaria.
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the previous reasons.
Mr. Walter. How old were you when you left Bulgaria to return
to the United States ?
Mr. Petroff. About 18.
Mr. Walter. Had you any particular formal training in languages
in Bulgaria ?
Mr. Petroff. What do you mean by formal training ?
Mr. Walter. Well, what languages did you study %
Mr. Petroff. Well, I studied Bulgarian.
Mr. Walter. What else ?
Mr. Petroff. And I studied English.
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer. )
Mr. Petroff. Oh, I studied some German.
Mr. Scherer. What about Kussian ?
Mr. Petroff. I don't remember studying Russian in school.
Mr. Scherer. You mean to tell us you can't remember whether you
studied Russian or not ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, Russian is very close to Bulgarian ; so
Mr. Scherer. That would make it all the more reason why you
should remember.
Mr. Walter. That doesn't necessarily follow. There are 38 dialects
in the Russian language.
Did you receive any formal training in sabotage or espionage?
Mr. Petroff. No.
Mr. Scherer. Did you receive any informal training ?
7220 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Petroff. No.
Air. Tavenxer. You were asked the question whether or not you
are now a member of the Communist Party. May I ask you : Have
you been a member of the Communist Party at any time since your
arrival in the United States since 1946 ?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Scherer. You were a member of the Communist Party before
you came to the United States, weren't you ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Tavenxer. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Any questions, Mr. Clardy ?
Mr. Clardy. Witness, the address at which we served the subpena
was the Taft Hotel.
Is that your present address in Detroit ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I checked out of the Taft Hotel since
Mr. Clardy. I know you did several times and we finally caught
you and served a subpena on you there for your appearance here.
What is your present address ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Well, I don't have any residence. I will have to cr0
back to Detroit, and I will stay at some hotel.
Mr. Clardy. Where are you receiving your mail in Detroit at the
moment ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I receive my mail at 5360 Russell.
Mr. Clardy. Is that a private residence or hotel ?
Mr. Petroff. That is a restaurant.
Mr. Clardy. What name ?
Mr. Petroff. All Central Lunch.
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. That is where they have Bulgarian cooking, and I
go there occasionally to get some food.
Mr. Clardy. Just prior to your being picked up bv the Detroit
police, you, as you said, had taken out after these fellows in order to
persuade them not to go to work.
What led you to take out after them ?
Mr. Petroff. I think I already stated it,
Mr. Clardy. No ; you haven't.
Mr. Petroff. Because I believe the workers get better contracts,
and if they get 30 hours' work and 40 hours' pay there would be more
jobs and I would be able to get a job.
Mr. Clardy. I don't mean that. Did you observe them coining out
of a plant and get into an automobile, and vou then took out after
(hem?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Yes ; I saw them getting in an automobile.
Mr. Clardy. And you saw them as they came out of the plant,
did you?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Well, I think so.
Mr. Clardy. Why did you take out after them ?
Why were you going to try to persuade them if you didn't believe
they were Square-D employees ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7221
Mr. Petroff. I was going to talk to them.
Mr. Clardy. Even though they weren't Square-D employees.
Mr. Forer. He said he believed they were.
Mr. Petroff. I did think so.
Mr. Clardy. I couldn't hear you. I didn't understand.
When you caught up to them, you ran your car in front of them and
forced them to the curb and about that time the police came on the
scene ?
Mr. Petroff. I didn't run my car in front of them and force them
over to the curb.
Mr. Clardy. How did you curb them ?
Mr. Petroff. I didn't curb them.
Mr. Clardy. Well, did you actually catch up to them ?
Mr. Petroff. I was behind them.
Mr. Clardy. Right close behind them ?
Mr. Petroff. Well, I got close to them.
Mr. Clardy. Bump them or anything?
Mr. Petroff. Didn't even bump them.
Mr. Clardy. The police got there a little too quick for that ?
Mr. Petroff. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Have you read this document, this Communist docu-
ment ?
It acknowledges that it is put out by the Communist Party.
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Clardy. Have you read that part of it where it says :
There can be no hope for a lasting peace and world disarmament without ac-
cepting the principle of peaceful coexistence between the capitalist United
States of America and the socialist Soviet Union.
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Clardy. You have heard that said before by the Communist
Party leaders, haven't you ?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Clardy. Have you read that part of it which recommends
that there be no intervention of any kind by this Nation in the affairs
of other nations, and that we, among other things, keep hands off
Guatemala ? Did you read that part of the document?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same grounds I used
before.
Mr. Clardy. Have you read any of the documents that were found
in your car ?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reason I gave before.
Mr. Clardy. How much money have you put out all together in
purchasing the matter that was found in your car?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Clardy. Have you disseminated or distributed any literature
whatever put out by the Communist Party to other people?
Mr. Petroff. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Scherer. How many employees of Square D who were in this
car were you going to persuade not to work ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. In whose car do you mean?
Mr. Scherer. I mean the employees in the car you were pursuing.
How many men were there in the car you were pursuing ?
7222 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. There were two men, I believe.
Mr. Scherer. There were four with you, were there not ?
Mr. Petroff. I think so.
Mr. Clardy. Was that a taxi or private car you were pursuing ?
Mr. Petroff. Both cars were private.
Mr. Scherer. You had four men and this gun. Now, the police
caught you that time. On how many other occasions did you attempt
to persuade employees of the Square D Co. not to work?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. Oh, I tried to persuade a few of them who were
applying for jobs there.
Mr. Scherer. On how many other occasions did you use force and
violence ?
Mr. Petroff. I could never use force and violence.
Mr. Scherer. You never did, any force at all ?
You never grabbed ahold of any of these men, did you ?
Mr. Petroff. No.
Mr. Scherer. Are you sure of that?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. I don't think I did.
Mr. Scherer. Isn't it a fact that you did ?
(At this point Mr. Petroff conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Petroff. No.
Mr. Scherer. That is all.
Mr. Walter. I have no questions.
Mr. Velde. I have no questions.
The witness is dismissed.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Clardy (presiding) . Call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
You do solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whoie truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Millstein. I do.
Mr. Clardy. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF ALFRED MILLSTEIN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, JOSEPH FORER
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Millstein. My name is Alfred Millstein.
Mr. Tavenner. I note you are accompanied by Mr. Forer as counsel.
When and where were you born ?
Mr. Millstein. I was born May the 19th, 1921, in Brooklyn, N. Y.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Millstein. I reside in Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Detroit?
Mr. Millstein. Approximately 5y2 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that where did you reside?
Mr. Millstein. I resided at Ann Arbor, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you reside at Ann Arbor?
Let me put it this way : Will you tell me when you went to Ann
Arbor, Mich., and when you left Ann Arbor?
Mr. Millstein. I am trying to recall.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7223
I went to Ann Arbor either toward the end of 1947 or the beginning
of 1948.
I'm not quite sure of the date. I would have to look up some records
to be exact.
I left Ann Arbor, moved to Detroit in May 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. I assume you were at the university there ?
Mr. Millstein. That's correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to your going to Ann Arbor, where did you
live?
Mr. Millstein. New Orleans, La.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you there ?
Mr. Millstein. Between a year and a half and 2 years.
Mr. Tavenner. And prior to that where did you make your resi-
dence ?
Mr. Millstein. New Guinea, the Philippine Islands, Okinawa.
Mr. Tavenner. While you were in the service ?
Mr. Millstein. Yes. We were doing a little colonizing over there.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you became a major in the service, didn't
you?
Mr. Millstein. No, sir ; I became a captain.
Mr. Tavenner. You were in the service for how long a period of
time ?
Mr. Millstein. Four years. Active service.
Mr. Tavenner. From 1942 to 1946?
Mr. Millstein. That's correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you have told us, in stating where you re-
sided, where you had gone to school. You were at Tulane University,
were you not?
Mr. Millstein. That's correct.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you there? For one session?
Mr. Millstein. Well, it was a little mixed up — summer school and
so on.
It wasn't an exact session by session, the way a normal course goes.
I was there between iy2 and 2 years, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Tavenner. And you went from there to what university ?
Mr. Millstein. The University of Michigan.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you obtain a degree at the University of Michi-
gan?
Mr. Millstein. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. What degree did you obtain ?
Mr. Millstein. Bachelor of business administration.
Mr. Tavenner. And you obtained your degree in what year ?
Mr. Millstein. I believe it was February 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. What employment did you obtain upon securing
your degree in business administration ?
Mr. Millstein. I continued school briefly, not a complete semester,
after I received my degree.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you teach?
Mr. Millstein. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. At any time while at Michigan University ?
Mr. Millstein. I was a student.
Mr. Tavenner. A student the entire time ?
Mr. Millstein. Yes, sir.
7224 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. When you continued this work, did you continue it
at the university?
Mr. Millstein. Yes, sir ; for a brief period.
Mr. Tavenner. And then what was your employment after that ?
Mr. Millstein. I hired into Chevrolet Forge Spring and Bumper
plant in Detroit.
Mr. Tavenner. And you are still employed there?
Mr. Millstein. That's correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you seek employment there for ordinary labor-
ing work or was it any technical phase of the work of the plant ?
Mr. Millstein. I use my hands. I work with my hands. I gee
my hands dirty.
Mr. Tavenner. What kind of job was it?
Mr. Millstein. I do general production work.
Mr. Tavenner. What kind of job was it when you first took it?
Mr. Millstein. I w7as a buffer. I got my face dirty then.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us what a buffer means.
Mr. Millstein. Well, a buffer takes automobile parts — in this case,
bumpers, you see, and the bumper has to be shined before it is plated.
That is what a buffer does. He shines it before they plate it. That
is what I did.
Mr. Tavenner. It is the type of work that yonr training, your col-
lege degree, had played no part in your ability to handle, the job, or
in your preparation for that type of job, did it?
Mr. Millstein. Well, I know people, for example, who study engi-
neering and go out and sell bonds, you see.
I don't know if you can draw a correct connection or not ; but you
can draw your conclusions from it.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you make a written application for your
position ?
Mr. Millstein. I must have.
Mr. Tavenner. I will see if I can refresh your recollection.
I hand you a photostatic copy of the application for employment
and I will ask you to examine the signature there and state whether
or not it is a reproduction of your signature.
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. Well, it could be.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you reasonably satisfied that is your hand-
writing ?
Mr. Millstein. It looks like it.
Mr. Tavenner. And it is your name, isn't it?
Mr. Millstein. It is spelled the same way my name is — appears
to be.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to introduce the document in evidence and
have it marked "Millstein Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Clardv. It will be received.1
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted from this application that when you
gave your educational record you gave it as college, 1 year, 1946-1947.
That is the time when you attended Tulane University, isn't it?
Mr. Millstein. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Why did you fail to inform your employer that you
had a degree in business administration at the University of Michigan (
1 Retained in the files of the committee.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7225
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. Well, it is highly unlikely that I would have gotten
the job that I applied for if I mentioned the fact.
I felt that way at the time, as a matter of fact. Many people with
certain education might want a certain type of a job, and I know that
corporations, for example, figure that if a man — maybe if a man is too
smart, if he knows too much, maybe he don't like to sit still. I know
that is the policy of many personnel directors.
Many people don't give the full information when they apply for
jobs because they are discriminated against. I seem to recall— —
Mr. Tavenner. You thought your degree in business administration
might cause your employer to discriminate against you and not give
you a position ?
Mr. Millstein. Well, I needed a job at the time. I wanted a pay-
check to come in, see, and I didn't particularly see the need to put that
on there.
Mr. Scherer. The more education you had the less likelihood you
would have had of getting a job?
Mr. Millstein. Well, look, it is not an unheard of practice, sir, for
a person not to put everything on his application when he goes for a
certain job.
I don't think Mr. Clardy told the voters when he went for Congress
he had been kicked off the public service commission. I doubt if they
would have elected him if he had told them that.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that be stricken.
Mr. Clardy. I didn't hear that.
Mr. Walter. No; no. That is a matter that is entirely proper
because it is a matter of public record, that at the expiration of the
Republican regime in Michigan the Democrats asked that a Demo-
crat take Mr. Clardy's place.
So, I think you wise guys ought to have that clarified. At least the
people
Mr. Clardy. Was he talking about me ?
I didn't catch it.
Mr. Walter. Oh, well, we don't have the problem in the Sixth
District any more, so
Mr. Clardy. You mean you have one of your kind, you think?
Mr. Millstein. One of my kind ?
Mr. Clardy. That is what you are implying.
Mr. Millstein. I said we don't have the problem of Mr. Clardy any
more.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Millstein, did you have any employment while
at the University of Michigan?
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. At one time I recall I had a job for a couple of weeks
washing dishes. There may have been one or two other instances of
that type during my period at the University of Michigan, and with
respect to my other employment during the period we are talking about
I will refuse to answer, in the first place, on the following grounds :
In the first place, such questions deal with matters of freedom of
speech, freedom of thought, freedom of assembly, covered by the first
amendment to the constitution ;
In the second place, on the basis of my privilege under the fifth
amendment not to be a witness against myself.
7226 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. So, you had no actual work while you were at the
University of Michigan other than sporadic employment of a few days
at a time, washing dishes or something of that character ; is that what
you mean?
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. I have formulated my answer. I will repeat it, if
you would like me to.
Mr. Tavenner. If you will tell me what employment, so I will
know, you had at the University of Michigan
Mr. Millstein. Now I answered the question once. I am not clear.
Maybe you didn't get it.
Well, could you read it back again ?
Mr. Tavenner. What employment did you have at the University
of Michigan, specifically ?
Mr. Millstein. I remember specifically one job I had washing
dishes.
Mr. Clardy. That doesn't distinguish you from a lot of students
there. I did that when I was there myself.
What we want to know is what other employment of any real
consequence
Mr. Millistein. All right. I will continue my answer.
With respect to any other employment, other than a dishwashing
job, during the period of my attendance at the University of Michigan,
I refuse to answer under the first amendment and under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Clardy. Is that because the employment had something to do
with the activities of the Communist Party or the Young Communist
League or some of the other branches of the Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. I refuse to answer that question for the same rea-
sons.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time while at the University of
Michigan work at a place called Lesser's Clover Lodge?
(Representative Francis E. Walter left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Millstein. No.
Mr. Tavenner. I note from your application, where you are asked
to state the names of your employers, you state Lesser's Clover Lodge,
that you had been employed there in general maintenance and repairs,
a resort hotel, from June 1947 to April 1949, a total of 22 months.
Will you explain, if you had never worked there, why you put that
on your application ?
Mr. Millistein. Well, that appears to be inaccurate. Doesn't it,
in the light of my testimony ?
Mr. Tavenner. I would say that is an understatement, to say it is
inaccurate.
Mr. Scherer. It is a plain lie.
Mr. Millistein. Now, what is the question ?
Mr. Tavenner. My question was : What was the reason for putting
on your application that you had been employed for 22 months at
Lesser's Clover Lodge from 1947 to 1949 and failing to state that
during that period of time you were obtaining a degree at the Univer-
sity of Michigan ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7227
Mr. Millstein. Well, it is hard for me to recall my thinking, my
reasoning at that particular time.
It is quite a while back. I am not sure that I could say expressly
what my reasons were, what my thinking was at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Maybe I can refresh your recollection as to that.
Wasn't it because you were very active during that period of time
in the Communist Party and you wanted to deceive your employer as
to what your activities had been ?
Mr. Millstein. I'll refuse to answer that question for the reasons
given previously.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it a fact that you were active in Communist
Party activities while you were at the University of Michigan?
Mr. Millstein. I refuse to answer that for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it true that prior to your coming to Michigan,
you were a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Millstein. I refuse to answer that for the same reasons.
(Representative Francis E. Walter entered the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Tavenner. Wasn't your Communist Party membership trans-
ferred from New Orleans Ralph Neaf us Club of the Communist Party
to the University of Michigan ?
Mr. Millstein. I refuse to answer that for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you married ?
Mr. Millstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your wife's name before marriage?
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. I would like to request you to withdraw the ques-
tion, Mr. Tavenner, because
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. I think that is a legitimate question.
I am not going to ask you any question about your wife, other than
her name.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that he be directed to answer.
Mr. Millstein. The name is Evelyn Millstein, formerly Evelyn
Lesser.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you give the name of your father-in-law as the
place where you worked from 1947 to 1949 because you knew if any
inquiry was made that you would be protected ?
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. What was the question ? How was it phrased ?
Mr. Tavenner. Read the question, please.
(The reporter read the question as follows:)
Did you give the name of your father-in-law as the place where you worked
from 1947 to 1949 because you knew if any inquiry was made that you would be
protected ?
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. The answer is "No."
Mr. Tavenner. Was an inquiry sent from Chevrolet to Lesser's
Clover Lodge making inquiry regarding your employment there, to
your knowledge ?
Mr. Millstein. Well, you should ask Chevrolet. You seem to have
access to their records.
Mr. Tavenner. I asked you.
Mr. Millstein. How can I say what Chevrolet did ?
7228 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please, sir ?
Mr. Clardy. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Millstein. Would you repeat — was an inquiry sent from
Chevrolet?
Mr. Tavenner. To Leaser's Clover Lodge regarding your former
employment there, if you know.
Mr. Millstein. If I know?
Well, I don't know what Chevrolet did. They have their own
people that send out inquiries.
Mr. Sciierer. Did your father-in-law receive any such inquiry?
Mr. Millstein. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Sciierer. You mean he never told you that?
Mr. Millstein. I said not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Toby Baldwin, the dues collector for the
State of Michigan, testified before this committee in May 1954.
You may know that she had been in the Communist Party at the
request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and assembled such
information as came to her attention during that period.
(Representative Francis E. Walter left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Tavenner. During the course of her testimony I asked her this
question :
Did you know a person by the name of Al Millstein?
Mrs. Baldwin's reply was :
I did not know him personally. However, I did handle a transfer card deal-
ing with him.
Question. A transfer card?
Answer. Yes.
Will you tell the committee what you know about his transfer card?
I assume you mean Communist Party transfer card.
Mrs. Baldwin : Yes ; I do. He was transferred from New Orleans into the
Communist Party here in Wayne County, and he was put at that time into the
Ralph Neafus Club.
Is any part of her statement with regard to your transfer in-
correct ?
Mr. Millstein. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons
stated previously.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Steve Schemanske?
Mr. Millstein. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons
stated previously.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Schemanske identified you as a member of the
Communist Party in Detroit during the period of your employment
that you have described.
Do you desire to refute that or explain it in any way?
(At tins point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. The answer is "No"; I don't desire to explain it.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you take part in the Square D strike on the
picket line?
Mr. Millstein. I picketed a couple of times.
Mr. Tavenner. You were not employed at that plant, were you?
Mr. Millstein. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You were not a member of the local union that was
involved in that strike, were you?
Mr. Millstein. What local do you refer to?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7229
Mr Tavenner. Any local that was involved, of the UE
Mr. Millstein. No, sir; I am not a member of the UK
Mr. Tavenner. Did any member of the Communist 1 arty en-
courage you to take part in that strike?
Mr. Millstein. No, sir.
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Jorer.)
Mr Millstein. Mr. Tavenner, I took part in the Square D strike
as a result of activity of UAW locals throughout Detroit.
The trade-union movement in Detroit recognized that the Square
D strike was an attack against all unions.
I was only one of several thousands of UAW members, leadeis,
nonleaders, rank-and-file members that went down that picket line.
We weren't goin^ to let them smash that strike. We weren't going
to let them bring scabs into that plant, because if they got away with
that they were going to bring scabs in the UAW shops.
Mr Clvrdy. To get this in proper perspective, isn t it true you
took part in the activities long before anyone other than a handful
of Communists and some of the strikers in Square D had anything
to do with it ?
Mr. Millstein. I said I picketed twice.
Mr. Clardy. You picketed all over town before a number ot them
took an active part ; isn't that a fact ?
Mr. Millstein. Do you have evidence to that eiiect i
Mr. Clardy. It isn't a fact ?
Mr. Millstein. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. What was the day when you first went on a picket line i
Mr. Millstein. I don't remember the day.
Mr. Clardy. I didn't think you would.
Mr. Millstein. Well, I could probably find it
Mr. Clardy. What week ?
Mr. Millstein. Well, to place it in time, it was well after the 14
UAW locals issued the statement and began to have mass picket lines
down there.
Mr. Clardy. You had no behind-the-scenes activity m connection
with that?
Mr. Millstein. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. None whatever?
Mr. Millstein. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Are you an officer in any of the locals ?
Mr. Millstein. I am the editor of my paper.
Mr. Clardy. What is the name of it?
Mr. Millstein. The Forgeman.
Mr. Scherer. What union ?
Mr. Millstein. UAW, CIO, Docal Union 262.
Mr. Clardy. How long have you been in that position 2
Mr. Millstein. A little over a year.
Mr. Scherer. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?
Mr. Millstein. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons
stated before.
Mr. Clardy. Had you as the editor of your paper written anything
about the Square D strike before you actually went on the picket line ?
Mr. Millstein. Before I picketed?
I don't think so. I can't swear to it, but I don't think so.
Well, I am under oath, so
7230 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Clardy. It may have happened, or it may have not?
Mr. Millstein. I don't think so. I am pretty sure of that.
Mr. Clardy. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I show you a photograph showing the picket line
at the Square D strike and I will ask you to look at the person there
with the No. 3 on it, and ask you whether or not you can identify
that person as Max Trachtenberg.
Will you point it out to him ?
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. I see the person, No. 3. Now what is the Question ?
Mr. Tavenner. The question is, Can you identify that person as
Max Trachtenberg ?
Mr. Millstein. Well, it looks a lot like him. You know, photo-
graphs are tricky. It looks a lot like him.
Mr. Tavenner. You are reasonably satisfied that is Max Trachten-
berg, aren't you ?
Mr. Millstein. I would say it probably is.
(Representative Francis E. Walter entered the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a person known to you to be a member of
the Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons
stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you confer with him about taking part in that
strike on the picket line ?
Mr. Millstein. I will refuse to answer that question for the reasons
stated previously.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what you know
about his activity in that strike ?
That is, whether he participated in the picket line frequently;
whether he exerted leadership in the conduct of the strike?
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Millstein. I can say that the two times I participated in the
Square D strike, when I went down to the picket line, that I didn't
see him there.
Mr. Tavenner. According to an issue of the Daily Worker of July
27, 1948, you were the youth director of the Progressive Party of
Detroit. Were you correctly reported ?
Mr. Millstein. I will refuse to answer that question for the reasons
stated previously.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Millstein. I refuse that one for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you read a directive of the Communist Party
of the State of Michigan, or been informed as to its contents regarding
the seeking of positions in industry prior to your filing your appli-
cation ?
Mr. Millstein. I refuse to answer that question for the same
reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you omit from your application for employ-
ment information for the purpose of enabling you to get in a position
where you could exert leadership in the union ?
(At this point Mr. Millstein conferred with Mr. Forer.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7231
Mr. Millstein. There is no connection between the two. I work
in the shop and I take part in the union like any other good worker
does, any other good union member does.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party unit
or group within your union ?
Mr. Millstein. I refuse to answer that for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Walter. I have no questions.
Mr. Clardy. Witness dismissed.
Before calling the next witness, by authority of the chairman, I am
announcing the setting up of a subcommittee consisting of Congress-
man Scherer, Congressman Walter, and myself.
Because of other commitments, I will have to leave and Congress-
man Scherer will take over the chair.
Mr. Tavenner. I call as the next witness Harold Robertson.
Mr. Scherer (presiding). The witness will raise his right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give at this
hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Robertson. I do.
Mr. Scherer. Be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF HAROLD ROBERTSON, ACCOMPANIED BY JOSEPH
FORER, HIS COUNSEL
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, sir ?
Mr. Robertson. My name is Harold Robertson.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Air. Robertson. I am.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Forer. Joseph Forer, 711 14th Street NW., Washington, D. C.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Robertson?
Mr. Robertson. Lake Charles, La., November 30, 1897.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Robertson. 3584 Spruce Street, Inkster, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Michigan?
Mr. Robertson. Oh, about 31 — 32 years; something like that.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the nature of your present employment?
Mr. Robertson. I work for the Ford Motor Co.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you worked for the Ford Motor Co. ?
Mr. Robertson. About 26 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you held any position in your local union ?
Mr. Robertson. Well, I have held a position in the unit from which
I worked at one time.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the designation of that unit ?
Mr. Robertson. Well, it is called the motor building, where they
build and construct the motors.
Mr. Tavenner. What unit or group of the union is that? Is that
designated — does it have a number ?
Mr. Robertson. No ; it is called the motor building. The units are
called by the names of the stuff that they produce.
Mr. Tavenner. What positions have you held in that group?
7232 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Robertson. "What do you mean — positions ?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, have you held any position in your local
union, any office <*
Mr. Robertson. Oh, I've held office in the unit as a financial sec-
retary.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you hold any office now \
Mr. Robertson. Oh, no.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you last hold office and what was it \
Mr. Robertson. Oh, about 1947 I think. I'm not quite sure.
Mr. Scherer. Is secretary the only office that you held, Witness \
Mr. Robertson. Well, in the unit, I was elected several times as
committeeman.
I was elected from the unit to the local itself, to the general counsel]
Mr. Scherer. In what capacity?
Mr. Robertson. I was secretary several times.
Mr. Scherer. What was the title of that office \
Mr. Robertson. General counsel. That is the highest lawmaking
body of the local.
Mr. Scherer. Have you told us now all of the positions you held
within the union, either within the unit or within the union itself \
Mr. Robertson. That's just about right.
Mr. Scherer. Are there any others?
Mr. Robertson. Not to my memory.
Mr. Scherer. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Bereniece Baldwin \
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my
privilege under the fifth amendment not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. At any time that you were an official of your union,
your local union, were you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
you were a signer of the 1946 Communist Party nominating petition
for the State of Michigan ?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party in
1946?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question for the same rea-
son previously given.
Mr. Tavenner. I have before me the May 22, 1949, issue of the
Worker, which carries a photograph of your likeness, and there ap-
pears, in a short statement above it :
The worker on the picket line, Harold Rohertson, member of the United Auto
Workers Ford Local 600, works in the motor building, is shown as he sells copies
of the airplane edition of the Daily Worker to strikers on Ford picket line.
Will you examine the document and state whether or not at the
time of that publication you were a member of the Communist Partv?
That is in 1948.
Mr. Forer. May 22, 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. 1949. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Scherer. Will you answer the question ?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question for the same
reason previously given.
Mr. Scherer. Well, why were you selling the Daily Worker on the
picket line ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7233
Mis Robertson. I refuse to answer that question for the same rea-
son previously given.
Mr. Scherer. What part did the Communist Party play in that
strike ?
Mr. Robertson. I will refuse to answer that question as previously
stated.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know if it played any part or not ?
Mr. Robertson. I also refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. Are you a member of the party today ?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
(At this point Mr. Robertson conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Scherer. You are aware that this Congress has found that the
Communist Party is a conspiracy dedicated to the overthrow of this
Government by force and violence, and otherwise, if necessary ?
You are aware of that ; are you ?
Mr. Robertson. Are you asking me a question ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes.
Mr. Robertson. Or making a statement?
Mr. Scherer. No. I asked you a question.
Mr. Robertson. Would you repeat the question, please ?
Mr. Scherer. Will you read the question ?
(The reporter read the question as follows :)
You are aware that this Congress has found that the Communist Party is a
conspiracy dedicated to the. overthrow of this Government by force and violence,
and otherwise, if necessary? You are aware of that ; are you?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason
previously given.
Mr. Scherer. I direct you to answer that question.
(At this point Mr. Robertson conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Robertson. Yes. Congress did pass such a law. I think they
did. I'm not too sure about it.
Mr. Scherer. You continued to remain a member of the Communist
Party, have you not?
Mr Robertson. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason
previously given.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Harold Mikkelsen?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question as previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Mikkelsen testified before this committee on
May 4, 1954, at which time he was asked the question as to whether or
not he knew a person by the name of Harold Robertson.
Mr. Mikkelsen has done undercover work for the Federal Bureau of
Investigation within the Communist Party.
His answer to the question was :
Yes ; I know Harold Robertson. He was at one time assigned to the Down-
river section as section organizer for Ford.
Later it was deemed he was of more importance at Ford. So, they transferred
him back again.
Now, were you at any time assigned to the Downriver section of
the Communist Party in Detroit?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question, as previously
given.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Milton Santwire ?
7234 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question as previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Didn't he work in the Ford plant with you ?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question as previously
given.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Santwire also had entered the Communism
Party at the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
In the course of his testimony before the committee, in April 195 !.
this statement was made to him :
In the Motor Building there is an individual by the name of Robertson.
Mr. Santmire. That' is correct.
Question. Did you know Harold Robertson to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Answer. Yes; very much so.
Question. Was he a member of the Motor Building Club?
Answer. He was a member of the Motor Building Club.
The question was then asked :
Is he still employed by Ford, to the best of your knowledge?
And the answer was :
To the best of my knowledge, he is still employed.
Do you desire to make any statement to the committee regarding
the testimony of Mr. Santwire in identifying you as a member of the
Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Robertson conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Tavenner. His identity of you was correct, was it not?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason
previously given.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, at the time that you were alleged to have been
a member of the Community Party, as to which you have refused
to answer, had you been a candidate for any elective office in your com-
munity, at Inkster ?
Mr. Robertson. Repeat that question again.
Mr. Tavenner. I said, during the period of time we have been dis-
cussing, when you have been identified by witnesses as having been a
member of the Communist Party, were you a candidate for any elective
office?
Mr. Forer. What time? What time do you mean?
Mr. Tavenner. The time probably has not been definitely estab-
lished.
Mr. Forer. Why don't you ask him if he has ever been a candidate?
Mr. Tavenner. I will withdraw the question.
Let me ask you : Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question on the basis previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. What political offices have you sought in the past 5
years ?
(At this point Mr. Robertson conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Robertson. Well, I ran for the council last spring in the village
of Inkster.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
you were such a candidate?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7235
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that qestion for the reason previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you run for any other office?
Mr. Robertson. When?
Mr. Tavenner. At any time.
Mr. Robertson. Not to my knowledge.
I don't remember running for any other office.
Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you a candidate for a position on the
school board at Inkster?
Mr. Robertson. Well, if you consider that a political office, I did
run for the school board.
Mr. Tavenner. I didn't call it a political office. I called it an
office.
Mr. Robertson. Well, the first question, if I recall, mentioned
political office.
Mr. Tavenner. Maybe I am in error. Go ahead.
Mr. Robertson. Perhaps you are.
Mr. Tavenner. I meant any position or office.
Mr. Robertson. I ran for the school board, and that is not a politi-
cal office.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
you were seeking election to that office ?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question, as previously
given — for the reason given.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a candidate for any other public
office?
Mr. Robertson. I don't remember being a candidate for any other
office.
Mr. Tavenner. It is very interesting to consider what may have
happened to the school board if a member of the Communist Party
were elected to it.
Would you have, if elected, denied a person who is a member of the
Communist Party employment as a teacher?
Mr. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question, as previouslv
given.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Walter. No questions.
Mr. Scherer. The witness is excused.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Philip Halper.
Mr. Scherer. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give at this hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Halper. I do.
Mr. Scherer. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF PHILIP H. HALPER, ACCOMPANIED BY JOSEPH
FORER, HIS COUNSEL
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please?
Mr. Scherer. Be seated, please.
Mr. Halper. I have a request to make, please.
I would like to request that Congressman Walter disqualify himself
from these proceedings until after I give my testimony.
Mr. Scherer. The request is overruled.
7236 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Halper. Philip H. Halper.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted you are accompanied by Mr. Forer as
counsel.
When and where were you born, Mr. Halper ?
Mr. Halper. In New Haven, Conn., August the 8th, 1899.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please what your
formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Halper. I had primary and high school education in Bridge-
port, and New Haven, Conn.
I am also a graduate with a degree of bachelor of philosophy from
the Sheffield Scientific School of Yale University ; and I attended 1
year of law school in the New York Law School of New York City.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that?
Mr. Halper. I believe that was 1922; I believe 1921, 1922, the fall
of 1921 until the summer of 1922.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your em-
ployment has been since 1945, or in what work you have been engaged ?
Mr. Halper. Well, let's see now. In 1945 I was a salesman for one
organization, and I have worked in jewelry stores as a jewelry sales-
man, as a watchmaker.
(At this point Mr. Halper conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Halper. That's about the extent of my employment.
Mr. Scherer. You haven't told us the name of any of the employers.
Mr. Halper. I worked about 17 years, I believe for— much prior
to 1945, for the Peerless Chemical Co. of Detroit.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, limit it to 1945.
Mr. Scherer. Pardon me just a minute, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner's question was since 1945.
Mr. Halper. Yes. Well, at that time I was employed as a sales-
man for the Peerless Chemical Co. of Detroit, Mich., and I also
at the same time was employed— do you want the name of the jewelry
store ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes.
Mr. Halper. The Ehrlich Jewelry Co. of Detroit.
I was also a part time — that was part-time employment,
I was employed part time by the Slatkin Jewelry Co. and also by
the Drake Jewelry Co.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, have you given us the names of all the
companies for whom you Avere employed since 1945 ?
(At this point Mr. Halper conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Halper. That's about all I can remember. At present I am
self-employed.
Mr. Scherer. In what capacity?
Mr. Halper. As a watchmaker and jewelry salesman.
Mr. Scherer. Have you engaged in any other type of activity since
1945?
(At this point Mr. Halper conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Halper. Will you please explain, sir?
Mr. Scherer. Business activity; occupational activity.
(At this point Mr. Halper conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Halper. I shall refuse to answer that question, sir, on the basis
of my rights under the first amendment and my privilege under the
fifth amendment not to be a witness against myself.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7237
Mr. Scherer. I direct that you answer the question.
Mr. Halter. I refuse to answer on the basis of my rights under the
first amendment and my privilege under the fifth amendment not to
be a witness against myself.
Mr. Scherer. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Halper, were you made aware of the directive
issued by the Communist Party for the State of Michigan relating
to the expansion of the Michigan Worker?
Mr. Halper. I shall refuse to answer that question for reasons pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. You do know, as a fact, do you not, that under this
secret directive the Communist Party was urged to develop and
strengthen the Michigan Worker?
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that question for reasons previously
stated.
Mr.'TAVENNER. This document that I referred to was introduced in
evidence during the course of the Detroit hearings, and I want to at
this time make one short paragraph a part of the record here,
It is entitled "Consistent Expansion of Michigan Worker."
It has been amply illustrated during the speedup campaign that the Michigan
Worker is the principal organizing instrument of our party, if properly coordi-
nated with the work of our party, capable of setting tens of thousands of Rouge
workers into motion. It will be necessary, therefor, within the next 3y2 months
to prepare at least 2 special editions of the Michigan Worker around the 2 con-
centration campaigns of the party.
Concrete objectives are: "(a) 2,000 copies of special editions, with assistance
of State president; (b) secure renewal of all expiring subscriptions; (c) secur-
ing 300 additional subscribers; (d) organize weekly bundle sale of 300.
Now, did you participate in the development of that program for
the Michigan Worker?
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that question for the same reasons
I have given.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any position after 1945 of employ-
ment without compensation ?
(At this point Mr. Halper conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, you were on December 7, 1948,
the business manager of the Michigan Herald, were you not?
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that question, for the same reason.
Mr. Walter. What date was that, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. December 7, 1948.
I hand you a photostatic copy of a letter, a photostatic copy of a
copy of a letter on the letterhead of the Michigan Herald.
Will you examine it, please, and state whether or not you recall hav-
ing written that letter?
(At this point Mr. Halper conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Halper. I shall refuse to answer that, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Halper Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Scherer. It will be so received and so marked.1
1 Retained in the files of the committee.
7238 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Tavexxer. The letter is as follows— it is addressed to Embassy
of France, Washington, D. C. :
Dear Sirs : The Michigan edition of the Workers is sponsoring an all-nations
bazaar on December 17, 18, and 19. We would like to display some material
from France. Will you please send us some color posters of scenes in Yugo-
slavia or any other material which you feel would be suitable for display?
And typewriting appears under that, "Philip Halper, Business
managei
It is on the letterhead of the Michigan Herald.
Do you recall the incident referred to in the letter?
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that question, sir, for the same
reason.
Mr. Walter. What was the date ?
Mr. Tavexxer. December 7, 1948.
Will you tell the committee, please, whether the Michigan Herald
was succeeded shortly after this by the Michigan Worker?
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become business manager of the Michigan
Worker? to
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. For the record, Mr. Counsel, the Michigan Worker
is the official organ of the Communist Party in the State of Michigan :
is that right? e '
Mr. Tavexxer. Yes, sir.
(At this point Mr. Halper conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Tavexxer. During the course of Bereniece Baldwin's testi-
mony she was asked this question :
Was there a club —
meaning club of the Communist Party —
known by the name of Fenkell Club — F-e-n-k-e-1-1 ?
Mrs. Baldwin. Yes ; there was, and that was also located or took in members
of the Fenkell district. It was on a community basis.
Question. Fenkell?
Mrs. Baldwin. That is correct.
Question. Will you give us the names of those persons, please, who were
ofneers of that club?
Mrs. Baldwin. Yes. Phil Halper was chairman in 1945 and 1946.
And then she proceeds to describe other officers.
Now, were you an officer of that club of the Communist Party in
1945 and 1946 ?
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Tavexxer. Bereniece Baldwin described a State conference of
the Communist Party which was held April 21 and 22, 1950. My
recollection is that she was one of those who checked in the members
who attended that meeting, and among those that she identified as
haying attended that conference, as delegates from their respective
units, was Phil Halper, and that you were a representative at that
conference from the Daily Worker office.
Is there anything wrong about her identification or an error about
her identification of you as having been present at that conference
as a delegate from the Daily Worker office ?
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons previ-
ously stated.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 7239
Mr. Tavenner. Were you at the hearing which was conducted by
the committee in April-May 1954, in Detroit?
(At this point Mr. Halper conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Halper. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
that time?
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that question for reasons previously
stated.
Mr. Walter. What was that date ?
Mr. Appell. April and May of this year, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee has received information indicating
that you have probably been expelled from the Communist Party since
that time. Is it true ?
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that question for reasons previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mr. Halper. I refuse to answer that question for reasons previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. You will refuse to tell the committee whether or not
you have been expelled and why the Communist Party expelled you?
Mr. Halper. I shall insist upon retaining my constitutional rights,
sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Air. Scherer. Mr. Walter.
Air. Walter. I have no questions.
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
The witness is excused.
The committee will be in recess until 2 : 30.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 42 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 2 : 30 p. m. of the same day.)
afternoon session
(At the hour of 2:30 p. m., of the same day, the hearing was
resumed.)
Mr. Kunzig. I have been asked to announce that Mr. Velde, the
chairman of the committee, has been called to the center of town.
The hearing will be continued to December 6, 1954, at 10 : 30 a. m.
(Whereupon, at 2:16 p. m., the hearing adjourned to Monday,
December 6, 1954, at 10 : 30 a. m.)
9
INDEX
Individuals
Page
Allan, William 7193
Badal, George 7174, 7181
Baldwin, Bereniece 7194, 7201, 7228, 7232, 7238
Baxter, Bolza 7169, 7170, 7182
Baxter, Louis 7202, 7203
Baxter, Nadine 7169, 7203
Birdsall, Henry A. Jr 7182, 7184-7191 (testimony)
Rlassinsame, Barry 7202
Borod, Geneva Olmsted 7182, 7202
Borod, Marv Olmsted 7202
Brant, Joe 7201
Brant, Svlvia (Mrs. Joe Brant) 7201
Churchill, Mrs. Beatrice 7168, 7169, 7181, 7182
Fileccia, Ralph 7191-7197 (testimony)
Forth, Joseph 7165-7239
Foster, Howard 7202
Foster. Shirley 7197-7204 (testimony), 7202, 7203
Fox, Shirley 7169
Gojack, Johnny 7210, 7211
Gore, Jack 7170
Green, Abner 7217
Harper, Philip H 7235-7239 (testimony)
,eitson, Harry 7202
Leitson, Morton 7202
T.essner, Evelyn (see also Evelyn Millstein) 7227
Letts, Esther 7216
Marzani, Carl 7216
Mikkelsen, Harold 7233
Millstein, Alfred 7172, 7222-7231 (testimony)
Jillstein, Evelyn (see also Evelyn Lessner) 7227
Minardo 7181
Morris, George 7215
Moscow, Dorothy 7202
Parker, Alexander 7215
Pearlstein, Mildred (see also Mildred Pierce) 7201
Perry, Pettis 7214
Petroff, James G 7205-7222 (testimony)
Pierce, Mildred (see also Mildred Pearlstein) 7201
Rauh, Joseph L., Jr 7191-7197
Robertson. Harold 7231-7235 (testimony)
Santwire, Milton 7233, 7234
Schemanske, Steve 7228
Shinn, Chuck 7202
Simon, Paul G 7173-7184 (testimony)
Simon, Soloman 7183
Simon, Surria 71 S3
Steuben, John 7216
Trachtenberg, Joy (Mrs. Max Trachtenberg) 7169, 7170
Trachtenberg, Martin 7166, 7167, 7169
Trachtenberg, Max 7165-7172 (testimony), 7230
Trachtenberg, Phyllis 7169
Travis, Helen Simon 7215
Van der Does, Nadine 7169
1
ii INDEX
White, Elsie
White, Jack 71 To.
Widmark, Bruce
Wldmark, Pauline |
Wistrand, Bruce 7173-7191, 7191
Zarichny, James 7186-
Organizations
American Committee for the Protection of the Foreign-Born
Communist Party, Ann Arbor, Mich., Ralph Neafus club
Communist Party, New Orleans, La., Ralph Neafus Club
Labor Youth League 7 1 7<».
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 7202,
Progressive Party 7170, 7202,
Publications
Daily Worker 7192,
For a Lasting Peace for a People's Democracy
March of Labor 7215,
Michigan Herald 7192,
Michigan Worker 7193,
Party Voice
Political Affairs
o
Live Music Archive
Librivox Free Audio
Metropolitan Museum
Cleveland Museum of Art
Internet Arcade
Console Living Room
Books to Borrow
Open Library
TV News
Understanding 9/11