Investigation of Communist activities in the Newark, N.J., area. Hearings

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HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY

GIFT OF THE

GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
NEWARK, N. J., AREA (Supplemental)

HEARINGS

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMEEICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

JULY 24, 1957

Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INCLUDING INDEX)

HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY

DEPOSITED BY THE

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

SEPb 1957

UNITED STATES
GOVERNJIENT PRINTING OFFICE
95698 WASHINGTON : 1957

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES

United States House of Representati\t:s

FRANCIS B. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York

CLYDE DOYLE, California DONALD L. JACKSON, California

JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio

EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana ROBERT J. McINTOSH, Michigan

Richard Aeens, Director
n

CONTENTS

Page

Synopsis vn

July 24, 1957 : Testimony of—

Estelle Laba 1363

Perry Zimmerman 1372

Index i

HI

Public Law 601, 79th Congress

The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :

Be it enacted ty the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Rule X

SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
* * « 4: * « *

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.

Rule XI

POWEES AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.

(A) Un-American activities.

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a vpbole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedical legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.

*******

Rule XII

LEGISLATIVE OVEBSIGHT BY STANDING COMMITTEES

Sec. 136. To assist the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws
and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces-
sary, each standing committee of the Senate and the House of Representatives
shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative
agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is within the juris-
diction of such committee ; and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent re-
ports and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive branch
of the Government.

V

RULES ADOPTED BY THE 85TH CONGRESS

House Resolution 5, January 3, 1957
« * » * * * *

Rule X

STANDING COMMITTEES

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con-
gress,

* * * * * « 0

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.
*******

Rule XI

POWEES AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******

17. Committee on Un-American Activities.

(a) Un-American activities.

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American projv
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.

****** 0

26. To assist the House in appraising the administration of the laws and in
developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem necessary,
each standing committee of the House shall exercise continuous watchfulness
of the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject
matter of which is within the jurisdiction of such committee ; and, for that
purpose, shall study all pertinent reports and data submitted to the House by
the agencies in the executive branch of the Government.

SYNOPSIS

Under date of May 19, 1955, Mrs. Estelle Laba, of Milbum, N. J.,
and Mr. Perry Zimmerman, of Newark, N. J., appeared before a sub-
committee of the Committee on Un-American Activities and, although
having previously been identified in sworn testimony as one-time mem-
bers of the Communist Party, both invoked the privilege of the fifth
amendment against self-incrimination when interrogated respecting
Communist Party membership or activities.

The instant testimony was taken in executive session on July 24,
1957, at which time Mrs. Laba and Mr. Zimmerman were again in-
terrogated respecting certain statements allegedly made by them be-
fore the superintendent of schools, board of education, Newark, N. J.,
under date of May 16, 1957.

In the instant testimony, both Mrs. Laba and Mr. Zimmerman re-
fused to divulge any significant information respecting the alleged
statements made by them to the superintendent of schools, and invoked
their privilege under the fifth amendment against self-incrimination
with reference to questions pertaining to the board of education's ad-
ministrative hearings.

vn

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
NEWARK, N. J., AREA (SUPPLEMENTAL)

WEDNESDAY, JULY 24, 1957

United States House of REPRESEXTATI^^s,

Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,

Washington^ D. C.

executive session ^

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met in executive session, pursuant to call at 2 p. m., in room 226, Old
House Office Building, Washington, D. C, Hon. Clyde Doyle presid-
ing.

Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle, of Cali-
fornia, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.

Staff members present : Ricliard Arens, director, and Raymond T.
Collins, investigator,

Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will come to order.

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Laba, would you mind standing while the chair-
man administers the oatli to you, if you please 'I

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mrs. Laba. I do.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ESTELLE LABA, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
WILLIAM ROSSMOORE

Mr. Arens. Will you identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation ?

Mrs. Laba. My name is Estelle Laba. I am at 32 Berkeley Road,
Millburn.

Mr. Arens. In New Jersey?

Mrs. Laba. Yes, in New Jersey, and I am unemployed.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mrs. Laba, in response to
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?

Mrs. Laba. Yes.
! Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?

Mrs. Laba. Yes, I am.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself for this
record ?

1 Released by committee and ordered to be printed.

1363
95698—57 2

1364 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA

Mr. RossMooRE. William Rossmoore, 60 Park Place, Newark, N. J.

Mr. Arens. For the purpose of further identification, are you the
Mrs. Laba who appeared before a subcommittee of the Committee on
Un-American Activities in JNlay of 1955 ?

Mrs. Laba. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. AnENS. Let the record show, Mr. Chairman, that present today
in this session, if you please, are yourself as chairman of this sub-
committee and Mr. Gordon Scherer, of Ohio, 2 of a 3-member sub-
committee which constitutes a quorum, the third member being the
chairman of the full committee, Mr. Walter.

Mrs. Laba. May I say a few words that I have prepared pertinent
to my appearance here ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mrs. Laba. I want to make a few comments on my being called as a
witness today.

First, Raymond Collins, an investigator for the committee, assured
me that the committee does not call witnesses engaged in litigation and
tliat he M'ould get in touch with me after my case was settled.

Nevertheless, and contrary to policy, I was subpenaed to appear. It
seems to me that those forces in the community working against my
reinstatement have exerted pressure to effect my appearance.

Secondly, Mr. Collins assured me that this would be an executive
session without any publicity whatsoever. Nevertheless, a leak
occurred with resultant publicity. Once before when the committee
appeared in Newark 2 years ago, there was also a leak, and names of
people who had been subpenaed were published in the local press.

I feel that since the committee members are undoubtedly very careful
with information at tlieir disposal, and I have great deference for the
committee, that an investigation might be made as to why these leaks
occurred.

If the United States marshal's office is at fault, then the Attorney
General might be so informed. If not, some other source might be
looked for.

In view of these disclosures and, in addition, a leak that occurred on
testimony given to Dr. Kennell}^ at a private inquiry where it was
agreed that no disclosures would be made, I am dubious that, however
well intentioned the committee may be, that even this session will be
completely secret.

Third, I was expressly directed by Dr. Kennelly not to disclose any
testimony given before him, and I feel it incumbent upon me to adhere
to this directive.

Fourth, the New Jersey State Supreme Court made it very clear as
to what steps were to be taken in my case. These steps are now in
progress and since neither Congress nor this committee can exercise
any valid legislative purpose in the field of local education, my forced
appearance here now serves no legislative function and seems like
actual interference with State and local authorities.

Mr. Arexs. May I make an observation for this record.

It is the information of this committee that there was, and perhaps
is, in the Newark, N. J., area a union consisting of schoolteachers ; that
that union consisting of sclioolteachers was heavily penetrated by
members of the Communist Party.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA 1365

This committee is considering legislation, with a view toward pre-
cluding certain certifications of unions which may be Communist con-
trolled or penetrated. It is for that reason, among others, that we
have invited you to appear here today to give us information which
might be germane to the consideration of such proposed legislation.

I would like to ask you now, first of all, what is this private inquiry
you were talking about as you read this statement a moment ago?
You referred to some private inquiry before a Dr. Kennelly. What
was that ?

Mrs. Laba. This was held in Newark. Dr. Kennelly is superin-
tendent of the Newark School S3^stem, and it is a matter of public rec-
ord that such an inquiry was held as directed by the New Jersey State
Supreme Court.

Mr. Arens. Did you appear at that inquiry as a witness?

Mrs. Laba. I appeared at the inquiry.

Mr. Arens. Were you sworn at the inquiry ?

Mrs. Laba. In accordance with Dr. Kennelly's directives to me,
which in turn Avere based on the New Jersey State Supreme Court
decision, I feel that I cannot disclose any information concerning the
inquiry other than what is publicly known, that there was such an in-
quiry and that it was held.

Mr. Arens. "Wliere were you when he gave you these directives you
mentioned ?

Mrs. Laba. I was in his office.

Mr. Arens. Was it in the course of this public inquiry that he
gave you this directive ?

Mr. Laba. No. It was at the secret, private inquiry.

Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the secret, private inquiry?

Mrs. Laba. I was a witness.

Mr. ScHERER. You said that this Dr. Kennelly was holding the
hearing at the direction of the New Jersey Supreme Court ?

Mrs. Laba. Yes, sir.

Mr. ScHERER. I am entirely unfamiliar with the litigation involved.
Will you tell us about that directive and how it arose ? That certainly
is a public record.

Mrs. Laba. Briefly, I am engaged in litigation to be reinstated as
a teacher in the city of Newark, and in the course of this litigation,
directives were issued in a court order. Subsequently an inquiry was
held by Dr. Kennelly.

Mr. ScHERER. Is the Supreme Court of New Jersey your highest
court or is it the trial court ?

Mrs. Laba. Isn't the supreme court always the highest court in the
State?

Mr. ScHERER. No, the Supreme Court of the State of New York
is its trial court.

Mrs. Laba. I don't know.

Mr. ScHERER. Will counsel advise her?

Mrs. Laba. The supreme court is the highest court in New Jersey.

Mr. ScHERER. What was the nature of this directive that was
issued to Dr. Kennelly ?

Mrs. Laba. Please rephrase your question. I don't know what you
mean.

I

1366 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA

Mr. ScHERER. You said that the Supreme Court of New Jersey
ordered Dr. Kennelly to conduct some kind of a hearing or an investi-
gation. Is that what you said ?

Mrs. Laba. Yes.

]Mr. ScHERER. Do you know why the supreme court made such an
order and what was the nature of the order ? \Yliy was he to conduct
the hearing?

Mrs. Laba. I told you it was in reference to litigation that has
been going on.

Mr. Aretsts. ^VhRt litigation?

Mrs. Laba. And I believe that the New Jersey State Supreme Court
decision is a matter of public record, and you might easily avail
yourselves of it.

Mr. ScTiERER. We might get it. This is the first time I have heard
of it. I just want you to tell me what it is. Do you not know?

Mrs. Laba. I am not so informed on legal matters — I do not feel
that I can tell you exactly what the directive stated.

Mr. ScHERER. Tell us what you understand about it. I might want
to ask some questions and I might be better able to ask those ques-
tions if I know the nature of the hearing and how it came about.

Mrs. Laba. The New Jersey State Supreme Court, after listening
to my case sometime last winter — and this, of course, I am express-
ing as well as I can

Mr. ScHERER. We understand that.

Mrs. Laba. Issued a directive that was to the effect that my dis-
missal had been illegal and that the case Avas to go back to the local
authorities and that an investigation be made by Dr. Kennelly as to
my fitness in various areas.

In fact, his recommendation would, in turn, be given to the local
board of education for disposal of the case. That litigation is now
pending. Dr. Kennelly's report, as a result of the inquiry, has not
3'et been given to the board to my knowledge.

Mr. Arens. Were you interrogated by Dr. Kennelly while you
were under oath ?

JNIrs. Laba. I beg your pardon ?

Mr. Arens. Were you interrogated by Dr. Kennelly while

Mrs. Laba. I am sorry, but Dr. Kennelly directed me without
equivocation to disclose no matter relevant to that inquiry.

Mr. Arens. Were you a participant in the inquiry ?

Mrs. Laba. Yes, that is a matter of public record.

Mr. Arens. Were you a witness in the inquiry ?

Mrs. Laba. I again have to state that Dr. Kennelly directed that
no material relevant to the inquiry be disclosed.

Mr. Scherer. Did you not testify a few minutes ago that you were
a witness at the inquiry ?

Mrs. Laba. I don't recall.

Mr. Scherer. My recollection is that she did. Nevertheless, Mr.
Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to answer the question.
She injected the hearing and voluntarily called our attention to this
hearing as a basis for her refusal to answer, and I think we have a
right, then, to ask her about it.

In fact, the question now before us does not even ask for an answer
to what she said. It merely is a question of whether she ever partici-

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA 1367

pated in the hearing which she is using for the basis of refusing to
answer our questions.

If she wishes to use that basis for refusal to answer, she has to at
least tell us whether she was a witness or participant in the hearing.

Mrs. Laba. I was a participant at the hearing conducted by Dr.
Kennelly.

Mr. Arens. What did you do as a participant ? Did you testify ?

Mrs. Laba. I do not believe that that question is relevant and have
to rely on my rights under the provisions of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Doyle. What do you mean by a participant ?

Mrs. Laba. A participant is a person who takes some part in an
affair.

Mr. Doyle. What was your action? How did you participate?
What did you do ?

Mrs. Laba. I am sorry, but I will have to rely on my constitutional
rights.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.

Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer the question as to what you did
to participate in the hearing. You have testified that you partici-
pated. Now, what did you do ? Did you answer questions asked by
Dr. Kennelly ?

Mrs. Laba. I do not believe this question has any relevance to the
real function of this committee and, in addition, I shall have to invoke
my constitutional rights.

Mr. Doyle. I think it is a preliminary question, preliminary to other
questions which we shall ask you.

Mr. Scherer. May I further say, Mr. Chairman, as I said before, so
the record is clear and so there is no misunderstanding, it was this
Avitness who mentioned the hearing and used it as a basis for refusing
to answer questions.

Since she raised the issue voluntarily, we have a right to know the
nature of the hearing and the extent of the hearings as a basis for
judging whether she is invoking the reason as a refusal for not
answering correctly.

Mr. Doyle. Did you hear Mr. Scherer's comment ?

ISIrs. Laba. To some extent. I am sorry, but I did not hear the
entire comment. I have a hearing aid on, but it is not working too
well.

Mr. Scherer. You were directed to answer whether or not you were
a witness at this hearing before Dr. Kennelly and to answer in what
manner you participated in this hearing.

You have refused to answer that question, invoking the fifth amend-
ment. I have said that the committee does not accept your answer.
One of the reasons we do not accept your answer is the fact that you
yourself injected this hearing before Dr. Kennelly into the testimony
and gave it as a reason for your refusal to answer questions.

Mrs. Laba. I am not giving that as the reason for my refusal to
answer questions. I am pointing out, however, that this is one of the
background conditions that exists.

I further invoke the fifth amendment and also pointed out that I
feel that your question has no relevancy to the legal functions of the
committee.

1368 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA

Mr. Arens. Wlio else participated in this hearing besides yourself
and Dr. Kennelly ?

Mrs. Laba. I will have to give you the same answer as I have just
stated.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask you to direct the witness to answer the question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, Witness. I think
you have made it clear to us that the hearing involved your application
to the Supreme Court of New Jersey for reinstatement as a teacher
in the Newark School System, is that not true ?

Mrs. Laba. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. And that your ayjplication for reinstatement as a school-
teacher in the Newark School System resulted from your release or dis-
charge or suspension from the Newark School System, growing out of
the hearings in Newark about which our counsel calls your attention
in which you were a witness before the committee.

Is that not true ?

Mrs. Laba. I did not state all that, I do not believe, but that is sub-
stantially true.

Mr. Doyle. You then were suspended, were you not, by the school
authorities of New^ark from the ]^osition as a schoolteacher on account
of the actions you took before the subcommittee of this House Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities at those Newark hearings. Is that
not true ?

Mrs. Laba. I believe so.

Mr. Doyle. I asked you those questions because I think your testi-
mony showed that and my own knowledge of those hearings, because
I was present at those hearings as a member of that subcommittee at
which you testified, as I recall.

Later, I was informed that you were suspended by the board on
account of your claiming of the constitutional privilege or other
actions before the committee at that time. I have asked those ques-
tions to lay the groundwork for j^our furtlier understanding as to
why we are questioning you now at this hearing.

Mrs. Laba. It is not quite clear yet.

Well, what is your next question ?

Mr. Arens. Did you tell the truth in the hearing that you had
with Dr. Kennelly ?

Mrs. Laba. I am sorry but I cannot divulge information relative to
that inquiry.

Mr. Arens. This question does not ask j^ou to divulge the facts of
the inquiry. We may get into that later. I am just asking you in
that inquiry in which you were a participant, did you tell the truth?

Mrs. Laba. I will have to rely on the fifth amendment.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer that ques-
tion. The witness has injected that matter into the hearing. If she
had any right to invoke the fifth amendment, she certainly has waived
it. She injected into this hearing the hearing before Dr. Kennelly.

Mrs. Laba. I fail to see how this question is relevant or pertinent to
any legislation function that this committee maj' have and, in addi-
tion, I will have to rely on my constitutional rights.

Mr. Arens. I would like to have the record clear on this thing.

Mrs. Laba, do you honestly feel that if you told this committee now
whether or not you told the truth in the hearing before Dr. Kennelly,

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA 1369

you would be giving information which might be used against you in
a criminal proceeding ? Do you imderstand the question ?

Mrs. Laba. No, please restate it.

Mr. Arens. The principal question was, did you tell the truth when
you participated in the hearing before Dr. Kennelly, and you have
invoked the fifth amendment on that.

Now, I want to know if you honestly feel that if you told us
whether you told the truth in your hearing before Dr. Kennelly,
you would be supplying information that could be used against you
in a criminal proceeding ?

Mrs. Laba. Again, I will have to rely on my constitutional rights.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask the chairman to direct the witness to answer
that question.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question. What is your
answer to ni}^ direction that you answer that question as to whether
or not you told the truth when you participated as a witness at the
hearing before Superintendent Kennelly ?

Mrs. Laba. I would like to point out again that I feel that this
particular question has no relevancy to the question which this com-
mittee has been legally set up, and, in addition, I will have to rely
on my constitutional rights and invoke the fifth amendment, in spite
of the fact that I have the greatest deference for this committee.

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Arens asked you another question. He said
to you : Do you in good faith believe that if you answered the ques-
tion as to whether or not you told the truth in the hearing before
Dr. Kennelly, you Avould be supplying information that might lead
to a criminal prosecution ?

That question the courts have said you must answer either "yes"
or "no."

Mr. Arens. The purpose of the testimony is to test her good faith
in the invocation of the fifth amendment.

Mrs. Laba. I should like to give the same answer to this question,
if it is directed that I answer, that I have given to the other questions.

Mr. Arens. I suggest the record reflect an order and a direction to
her to answer.

Mr. Doyle. We heard your answer just given. I want again to
make it clear to you that I am directing you to answer the question
which Mr. Arens, our director, asked you. That is, I want to make
it clear on the record and to you that I am directing you to answer
that question which Mr. Arens, our director, asked you.

Mrs. Laba. I wish to state that I feel that this committee's question
has no relevancy to the matter or matters for which the committee
has been set up and I wish, at the same time, to invoke my constitu-
tional rights under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Then I would like to ask the converse of that question.
I want you to understand what the question is going to be now.

I have asked you, in effect, if you told the truth in the hearing be-
fore INIr. Kennelly. Now, I am going to ask you the converse of that
question. There is no other way to put it than the simple language :

Did you lie before the Kennelly hearing ?

Mrs. Laba. My answer is the same.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly believe in good faith that if you told
us now whether or not you lied when you appeared and participated

I

1370 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA

in the hearing before Dr. Kennelly, you would be supplying informa-
tion which might be used against you in the criminal proceeding ?

Mrs. Laba. That is right.

Mr. Arens. I beg to differ with you.

Mrs. Laba. I wish to state again that I feel that the question is not
pertinent to the matters for which the committee

Mr. ScHERER. Let me interrupt you.

Obviously, Mr. Arens' last question has no pertinency to any legis-
lative purpose. He was merely asking you if you were invoking the
fifth amendment in good faith. He was not asking you anything else
other than if you were honestly invoking the fifth amendment,
whether you honestly believed that to tell us whether you lied would
lead to a criminal prosecution.

All we want to know is if you are honestly invoking the fifth
amendment, whether you obviously believe what you have said. That
is to test your credibility, and the courts have said that to that ques-
tion you would obviously say "Yes," if you thought it would lead
to criminal prosecution. It has nothing to do with the subject of the
investigation.

Mrs. Laba. I wish to state that I am honestly invoking the fifth
amendment and, at the same time, I feel that the question has no
relevancy.

Mr. Arens. See if you can help me on this: I want to be sure I
understand the status of the record.

I have asked you, first of all, if you told Dr. Kennelly the truth in
this hearing, and you invoked the fifth amendment. I then asked
you whether or not you invoked the fifth amendment in good faith,
and you again invoked the fifth amendment.

I then asked you if you lied to Dr. Kennelly and you have invoked
the fifth amendment. I asked you if you invoked the fifth amend-
ment in good faith, and you invoked the fifth amendment again.

I am now asking you another question: Is there something you
said, or failed to say, in your appearance before Dr. Kennelly in this
proceeding which was untruthful ?

Mrs. Laba. May I point out that I did state that I invoked the fifth
amendment in good faith and honestly. I did state that and I do not
believe you were aware of that.

Mr. Arens. You understand this question does not ask you what
you said to Dr. Kennelly. The question is, did you tell him the truth
or did you lie ?

Mrs. Laba. Yes, I understand this question, but I was just pointing
out that I did not invoke the fifth amendment when you asked if I had
invoked the fifth amendment honestly in good faith.

Mr. Arens. Then I take it if you told us whether or not you lied to
Dr. Kennelly, you would be supplying information that could be used
against you in a criminal proceeding?

Mrs. Laba. Again, I will have to invoke the fifth amendment and
also point out that this question has no relevancy to the legislative
purpose for which the committee has been set up.

Mr. Doyle. In view of the fact that you keep on repeating that
these questions liave no relevancy to the purpose for which this com-
mittee was set up by Congress, my question is directed to you par-
ticularly on that point. You keep on mentioning that you do not

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA 1371

tliink it has any relevancy or pertinency. You heard Mr. Arens
when the hearings first began state the purpose of tliis hearing, that
it was based upon the fact that we were informed that there was a
labor union in Newark made up, or largely made up, of schoolteachers
who were members of the Communist Party, did you not ? Did you
hear him state that ?

Mrs. Laba. Yes, I heard Mr. Arens' opening statement.

Mr. Doyle. And you heard him state that in substance about the
union ?

Mrs. Laba. I think that is approximately.

Mr. Doyle. Then you heard him state, too, that in connection with
that statement that we were questioning you because the question of
possible legislation is involved, involving labor unions which may be
dominated or controlled by Communists.

Mrs. Laba. Yes ; I have heard that.

Mr. Doyle. The reason for asking you these questions is to point out
the relevancy and pertinency of these questions which go into the facts
surromiding questions of fact.

Mr. Arens. You have told us a little about the nature of the pro-
ceeding. Could you help us on this '. If a person in that type of pro-
ceeding falsifies, deliberately misrepresents the facts, is that person
subject to a perjury prosecution? Could you tell us?

Mrs. Laba. I have no idea. I do not have very good legal knowl-
edge.

Mr. Arens. Did you perjure yourself before the Kennelly inquiry ?

Mrs. Laba. I am sorry, but I feel that this question also is irrele-
vant with respect to the purpose for which the committee was set up,
and again will have to invoke my constitutional rights.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the proceed-
ing today now be recessed and that the witness be maintained under
the subpena which was served upon her, subject to determination of a
time for further interrogation.

Perhaps the chairman would prefer to have a date set for her
reappearance.

Mr. Doyle. We are discussing the matter of a date. It seems neces-
sary to recess this hearing at this time and have it continued until a
later date. We are sorry for the inconvenience it causes you and your
counsel.

There is a major debate on the floor of the House involved, too, and
we are going to try to fix a date.

Mr. Arens. I would respectfully suggest that you fix the day for
her appearance, continuing under this subpena, on Wednesday,
August 7, at 10 a. m.

Mr. Doyle. We are discussing August 7, and I am going to ask
counsel if that is satisfactory to him, also.

Mr. Rossmoore. I am not her regular counsel. Her regular counsel
requested me to go here because he had a case which he could not
postpone. I will be out of town on August 7 and I would prefer not
to interrupt that schedule to be here.

Mrs. Laba. I believe my regular attorney will be out of town on
that date.

Mr. Arens. Wlio is your regular attorney ?

Mrs. Laba. Emil Oxfeld. I would appreciate it if you could recess
this until your early convenience in September because he usually

1372 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA

takes the month of August off, and I believe he has already made
arrangements to be out of town.

Mr. Doyle. In view of that fact that your counsel is engaged on
August 7 and you have made the request that we fix a date agreeable
to your regular counsel, would it be satisfactory to you. Witness, and
to you, Counsel, if we continue the subpena in full force and effect
until our director and counsel arrange some date with your regular
counsel which is satisfactory to both our committee and to j-our reg-
ular counsel ?

Mr. Arens. Could you help us, too, by giving us the address of
your counsel if you know it offhand ?

Mr. RossMOORE. It is 744 Broad Street, Newark.

Mr. Doyle. Is that satisfactory to both of you ?

Mrs. Laba. Yes, sir.

Mr. EossMOORE. Yes, sir.

Mr. Doyle. We will let the subpena remain in full force and
effect. It means you are still under subpena. It might be 3 or 4
or 5 or 6 weeks before you are called back, but we will not have to
resubpena you. We will not have to serve you with any more papers
to appear.

Mr. ScHERER. In view of the fact that she says that her counsel
is unable to appear on the date we suggest, it is an accommodation
to her.

Mr. RossMOORE. I appreciate the committee's cooperation with
counsel.

(The witness was temporarily excused.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, there is another witness to be heard.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Zimmerman, will you remain standing while the
chairman administers an oath to you ?

Mr. Doyle. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help
you God ?

Mr. Zimmerman. I do.

TESTIMONY OF PERRY ZIMMERMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

RICHARD P. GREEN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.

Mr. Zimmerman. My name is Perry Zimmerman. My address is
58 Norwood Street, Newark, N. J. I was a teacher.

Mr. Arens. Your present occupation ?

Mr. Zimmerman. I am a draftsman.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities ?

Mr. Zimmerman. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Zimmerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Green. Richard F. Green, No. 7 West Grant Street, Eliza-
beth, N. J.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA 1373

Mr. Arens. Are you the same Perry Zimmerman, for purposes
of identification, who appeared before the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities in Newark, N. J., in May of 1965 ?

Mr. Zimmerman. That is correct.

Mr. Akens. Are you the same Perry Zimmerman who appeared
before the superintendent of the Board of Education of Newark, N. J.,
on May 16, 1957, in an inquiry conducted by the superintendent of
the Board of Education of Newark, N. J. ?

Mr. Green. It is not the superintendent of the board. It is the
superintendent of schools. That is his correct title.

Mr. Arens. Tliank you for the correction, counsel.

Mr. Zimmerman, Yes.

Mr. Arens, Where were you last employed in the school system?

Mr. Zimmerman, In Newark, N. J.

Mr. Arens, In what capacity were you employed ^

Mr. Zimmerman. A teacher of mathematics in grades 6 and 7.

Mr, Arens. What occasioned your disassociation from the school
system ?

Mr. Zimmerman, A suspension,

Mr, Arens, Upon what grounds ?

Mr. Zimmerman, On the grounds that I had appeared before this
committee and had availed myself of the rights as guaranteed to me
by the fifth amendment,

Mr. Arens. Did you testify before the superintendent of schools

Mr, Green, He is a civil-service employee of the board of education,
which happens to be a separate corporation under New Jersey law,

Mr, Arens. Did you testify before Dr, Kennelly on May 16, 1957?

Mr, Zimmerman, May I consult with my counsel?

Mr, Arens. Yes, sir,

(The witness conferred with his counsel,)

Mr, Zimmerman, Without waiver of rights guaranteed to me by
tlie fifth amendment, I did so,

Mr, Arens. Were you sworn in that proceeding ?

Mr. Zimmerman. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Were your statements made on that occasion truthful
statements ?

Mr. Zimmerman. I am declining to ansv^er that question, sir, on
the basis of my rights mider the fifth amendment and also because the
business of education in the State of New Jersey is not a proper mat-
ter for this committee.

Mr. Arens. At that point I should like to advise you, first of all, that
this committee has under consideration possible legislation under-
taking to cope with the problem created by Communist penetration
of teachers" unions, as well as other unions.

It is the information of the committee, and the suggestion has been
made to the committee, that you might have information on that sub-
ject matter and that is why we feel that these questions are pertinent.

Do you honestly feel, Mr. Zimmerman, that if you told us now
truthfully whether or not you told the truth in the proceeding before
Dr. Kennelly of May 16, 1957, jou would be supplying information
which might be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?

I

1374 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA

Mr. Zimmerman. I wish my two previous answers to stand and also,
in addition to that, I wish to state that at the present time I am en-
gaged in litigation with the board of education and I do not wish to
answer that question any further.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request an order and a
direction to the witness to answer the question whether or not he
honestly contends that if he answered the principal outstanding ques-
tion, he might be supplying information that would be used against
him in a criminal proceeding.

Mr. Doyle. We cannot accept your previous answer as sufficient,
and I direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Zimmerman. I wish to stand on my rights as guaranteed by
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Scherer. Do you really understand the question Mr. Arens
was asking you? He was merely asking you if you were invoking
the fifth amendment in good faith, whether you honestly believe in
your own mind that to answer the question as to whether you told
the truth before Dr. Kennelly might lead to a criminal prosecution.

Mr. Zimmerman. I wish my answer to stand, sir.

Mr. Arens. I want to ask you the converse of that question. When
you were sworn and testified before Dr. Kennelly in those proceed-
ings, did you lie ?

Mr. Zimmerman. Again, I wish to avail myself of my constitu-
tional privilege.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told us whether or not you
lied to Dr. Kennelly, you would be supplying information which
might be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. Zimmerman. Again for the three reasons which I previously
stated, I decline to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest on this last ques-
tion he be ordered and directed to answer the question.

Mr. Doyle. Yes, I order and direct the witness to answer that last
question. The committee cannot accept your last answer as sufficient.

Mr. Scherer. May I supplement that by saying, in effect, Mr. Arens
is asking you if you are invoking the fifth amendment in good faith.
That is all he is asking you, in substance.

Mr. Zimmerman. I wish my answer to stand.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest this witness be continued under
subpena and that the proceedings be suspended today and that the
time and place for a subsequent hearing be communicated to his coun-
sel at a later date.

Mr. Doyle. This hearing will be continued until a later date, and
the date will be arranged with your counsel. Therefore, the subpena
will stand in full force and it will be unnecessary to resubpena you
for the next appearance ; is that satisfactory, INIr, Green ?

Mr. Green. You put me on the spot. Congressman. We recognize
the order of the committee.

Mr. Arens. Kindly give us on this record your telephone number
and address. I believe you told me on the phone the other day, but
I would like to have it on this record.

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE NEWARK, N. J., AREA 1375

Mr. Green. I can best be reached at the telephone number of my
associate, Myles C. Morrison, whose number is Elizabeth 2-7968.
My own number which is on answering service is Elizabeth 2-1518.

Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand m recess.

(Whereupon, at 3 :25 p. m., Wednesday, July 24, 1957, the hearing
in the above-entitled matter was recessed, subject to the call of the
Chair.)

INDEX

iNorv^muALS

Page

Oreen, Richard F 1372

Kennelly, Edward F 1364-1371, 1373, 1374

Laba, Estelle 1363-1372 (testimony)

Morrison, Myles C 1375

Oxfeld, Emil 1371

Rossmoore, William 1363

Zimmerman, Perry 1372-1374 (testimony)

Organizations

Newark (N. J.) Board of Education ,___ 1366, 1373

Newark (N. J.) School System 1365, 1368, 1373

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