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^INyESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
__ STATE OF FLORIDA— Part 1
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES \
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
NOVEMBER 29 AND 30, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
INCLUDING INDEX
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1955
>#'
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
FEB 2 1955
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States Hotjse of Representatives
HAROLD H. VELDE, Illmois, Chairman
BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania
DONALD L. JACKSON, California MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri
KIT CLARDY, Michigan CLYDE DOYLE, California
GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee
Robert L. Kunzig, Counsel
Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel
Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk
Raphael I. Nixox, Director of Research
Courtney B. Owens, Chief InvestUjator
II
CONTENTS
Page
Novemljer 29, 1954, testimony of — ■
Edwin E. Waller 7289
Afternoon session 7311
Edwin E. Waller (resumed) _. 7311
Jose Carbonell 7316
Samuel Hirsch 7325
Ralph Vernon Long 7336
Novenil^er 30, 1954, testimony of — •
Ralph Vernon Long (resumed) 7345
Afternoon session 7366
Ralph Vernon Long (resumed) 7366
Mariano Rodriguez 7372
Raul Vidal 7373
Max Shiafrock 7378
Jose Dominuez Tamargo, Jr_. 7386
Louis James Popps 7397
Index i
III
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
*******
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to malie from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attaclis the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House ( or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities or any subcommittee thereof," is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such bearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 83D CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 3, lOHS
RUT.E X
STANDING CO^rMITTF.ES
1. Tliere shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con-
gress, the following standing committees :
*******
((l) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine meml)ers.
*******
RULK XI
POWERS AND DITTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to nialie from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop-
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.
VI
investictAtion of communist activities in the
STATE OF FLOEIDA— Part 1
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 29, 1954
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Miami, Fla.
PUBLIC hearing
The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to call,
at 10 : 48 a. m., in the main court room, Federal Building, Hon. Harold
H. Velde (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Harold H. Velde, Kit
Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, Morgan M. Moulder, and Clyde Doyle.
Staff members present: Robert L. Kunzig, counsel; Thomas W.
Beale, Sr., chief clerk; Raphael I. Nixon, director of research; Earl
Fuoss, investigator ; W. Jackson Jones, investigator.
\ Mr. Velde. Mr. Reporter, let the record show Representatives
Clardy of Michigan, Scherer of Ohio, Moulder of Missouri, Doyle of
California, and myself, from Illinois, constituting a quorum of the
House Committee on Un-American Activities.
Before hearing the first witness, I would like to make a statement.
Today the House Committee on Un-American Activities is com-
mencing hearings in Miami, Fla., with a view to ascertaining the
scope and success of subversive infiltration in this and other areas of
the great southeastern section of the United States.
Several months ago the committee voted unauimously to institute
an investigation of such subversive activities. This decision of the
committee resulted from the various reports and requests from Mem-
bers of Congress and others indicating that such an investigation was
necessary.
Over the past several years the House Committee on Un-American
Activities has conducted investigations and held hearings in many
parts of the United States. We do not conduct these investigations
or have hearings on the mere whim or caprice of the nine members
who compose this committee. We are under direction of the Congress
of the United States, which in establishing Public Law 601 during
the T9th Congress, stated that the House Committee on Un-American
Activities should investigate (1) the extent, character, and objects
of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (2) the
diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American
proi)aganda that. is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic
origin and attacks the jn-inciple of the form of government as guar-
anteed by our Constitution, (3) all other questions in relation thereto
that would aid Congress in any remedial legislation.
7287
7288 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
It is in furtherance of this direction by Congress that we are here
today. It is true that the Miami area does not in terms of numerical
strength, have the problem with subversion that many of the other
areas of the United States have. We must never, however, be lulled
into any attitude of complacency by the numerical strength, or lack
thereof, in subversive groups or individuals.
All of us must realize the strategic importance of the Miami area,
due to its proximity to certain countries to our south in which com-
munism has made startling inroads.
Today we are taking up where a subcommittee of the House Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities left off in 1948. The present hear-
ings will disclose that as a result of the 1948 hearings the Conununist
Party in the Miami area was dealt a serious blow. I wish that I could
give assurance that the present hearings would deal a death blow to
communism in the great State of Florida and the southeastern area
of these United States. Unfortmiately, any such claim would be
foolhardy. Our competent staff has found many instances in which
individuals for whom there were subpenas issued have gone into hid-
ing to avoid appearing before the committee.
We can only gather that these individuals are among those who com-
prise a hard core of dedicated revolutionaries, and who are more in-
terested in furthering the totalitarian aims of the Soviet Union than
honorably assisting the United States Government.
During the next 3 days the committee expects to hear testimony
from approximately 15 witnesses. Each of these witnesses has been
called because the investigation lias established that they possess
information which would assist the committee in performing its
directed duty.
Every witness has been called in conformity with the committee's
rules of procedure. I would like to point out that this committee is
the first such committee of Congress to establish written rules of pro-
cedure, a copy of which has been furnished to each witness appearing
here.
I am pleased that we are conducting these hearings with a quorum
of the committee present. I wish to extend to Messrs. Moulder, Doyle,
and Frazier, who will arrive, as I understand it, sometime today, on
the Democratic side, and to Messrs. Clardy and Scherer on our Re-
publican side, my appreciation for their assistance in this hearing
and the excellent spirit of cooperation they have extended me in the
past. I am pleased to state that in the operations of this committee,
both the Democratic and Republican members have exhibited a sincere
opposition to commmiism.
Since these would now appear to be my last public hearings under
my chairmanship in this, the 83d Congi-ess, I would like to pay a
special tribute to the excellent staff of the House Committee on Un-
American Activities. Through the tireless efforts of these fine myn
and women, the committee has heard during the 83d Congress more
witnesses, received positive identification of more Communist Party
members, and has produced almost four times as much sworn testi-
mony as that received during any preceding Congress.
Last of all, I wish to express my appreciation for the excellent co-
operation extended to the committee and the staff by all law-enforce-
ment agencies of Miami and Florida, I especially wish to mention
the names of Special Assistant Attorney General Ellis Rubin, State's
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7289
Attorney George A. Brautigam and staff, the Miami Beach police
under the able direction of Chief Romeo Shephard, and the Miami
police, under the direction of Chief Walter E. Headley, and Deputy
United States Marshal Guy Hixon.
Mr. Counsel, do you have a witness ?
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Edwin Waller, will you please come forward ?
Mr. Velde. Will you raise your right hand ? In the testimony you
are about to give before this committtee, will you solemnly swear to
tell the whole truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Waller. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EDWIN E. WALLER
Mr. KuNziG. Will you give the committee your full name ?
Mr. Waller. Edwin E. Waller.
Mr. KuNziG. What is your present address, sir ?
Mr. Waller. 957 Eighth Street South, Naples, Fla.
Mr. KuNziG. I see you are not accompanied by counsel, Mr. Waller.
The committee will always permit everyone to have counsel. I think
you are willing to testify without counsel ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir, and I would like to state for the record, in
fairness, I requested counsel, and they had agreed to furnish me coun-
sel, and I am willing to waive the right of counsel.
Mr. KuNziG. We, of course, did not agree to furnish counsel.
Mr. Waller. They agreed to try to secure counsel for me.
Mr. KuNziG. But you are willing to go ahead without counsel ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, Mr. Waller, I would like to state for the record,
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Waller appeared before the subcommittee of this
committee in 1948, and that at that time Mr. Waller testified and
gave certain testimony, and that Mr. Waller personally, in discuss-
ing this matter with committee investigators, and vv ith me, in the last
few days, has stated very strongly he felt the true picture of his testi-
mony was not given, and that he did not give the full picture he would
like to give, and asked that he come back before the committee, stat-
ing that he would this time answer all questions, and he stated if he did
so, he would be giving himself an opportunity to clear up any mis-
conceptions that might exist ; is that correct ?
Mr. Waller. That is correct.
Mr. KuNziG. I believe you had some specific item you did mention ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; I have one specific item I would like to
clarify, that does not concern my direct testimony to the committee,
but Mr. Russell, on May 6 of 1949, made a statement that I deemed is
untrue, and I think my previous testimony will bear it out.
Mr. Velde. Who made the statement ?
Mr. Waller. Mr. Russell.
Mr. KuNziG. For the record, Mr. Russell was chief investigator
of the committee ; he is no longer connected with the committee.
Mr. Waller. I am quoting from the printed testimony of Paul
Crouch, and he says :
Mr. Chairman, during the month of March 1947, a subcommittee of this com-
mittee held a series of hearings in Florida, and at one of these hearings Mr. Edwin
Waller was subpenaed, and, when asked the question whether he was a member
of the Communist Party, declined to answer on the ground it might incrimi-
nate him.
7290 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Chairman, I did not say that.
Mr. KuNZiG. For the record, I have analyzed that, and am glad to
say he has at no time ever taken refuge in the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. This committee has changed those rules of procedure
in many instances since 1948, and the present committee is not operat-
ing in the same spirit as the committee operated in 1948.
Mr. Waller. Mr. Chairman, if I wasn't convinced of that, I
Vi'ouldn't be here as a fi-iendly witness.
Mr. KiTNZiG. Mr. Waller, when were you horn and where?
Mr. Waller. June 5, 1912, Macon, Ga.
Mr. KuNziG. Could you give us a brief resume of your educational
background ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. I attended grade school at Lake City, Fla.,
I attended grade school at Miami, Fla., and graduated from junior
liigh school here in Miami, the Robert Lee High School. I attended
prep school at Milledgeville, Ga., and graduated from Miami ?Iigh
School.
Mr. KuNZiG. Now could you kindly give the committee a brief
resume of your employment background, starting with the early stages
and working up ?
Mr. Waller, Yes, sir. After leaving school, I joined the Armed
Forces and was at the Artillery School at Fort Sill, Okla. I returned
home in Miami in 1933 and I secured employment with Swift & Co.
From Swift & Co. I went to Avork for Wilson & Co. and worked there
for quite a number of years.
Mr. KuNziG. What sort of work did you do there?
Mr. Waller. I was salesman in the wholesale butchers, sir.
I then went to work for a short period of time for Soutliern Liquor
Distributors here in Miami, as a wine salesman. From there I went
to work as a wholesale butcher with Smith, Richardson & Conroy,
Miami. From there I went to Dade Drydock Corp,
Mr. KuNZiG. When and how long did you work for Dade Dry-
clock Corp. ?
Mr. Waller. Sir, it was about the period of approximately 1942
until 1946, the latter part of 1946.
Mr, KuNZiG, What work did you do with Dade Drydock Corp. ?
Mr. Waller. I was employed originally as a blacksmith's helper
and subsequently worked my way up to blacksmith.
Mr. KuNZiG. Roughly, in 1946 where did you go next?
Mr. Waller. In 1946 I was employed by the Local 59 of the Ship-
builders' Union, and from there, after a short period of time, I went
to work for the Food. Tobacco, and Agricultural Local 9, part on the
payroll of the national and part on the local union.
Mr, KirNziG, What sort of work did you do with the local ?
Mr, Waller, More or less business agent and international repre-
sentative.
Mr. KuNziG. From there, where did you go ?
Mr, Waller. From there I went to work in a kind of hodge-podge
work setup, part on CIO State payroll, and part on the payroll of
the Union Record, and in June 1948, 1 resigned that position and went
to work, after a short period of time, for the United Construction
Workers, and in there I w^ent to work doing day labor on the Womack
Construction Co. in Miami.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7291
Mr, KuNziG. Were 3'ou ever connected with the Transport Workers
Union 'i
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. I subsequently went with the Transport
Workers Union in 1947, as international representative, and I done
work in Miami and Tampa, sir.
Mr. KuNZiG. How long did that period continue?
Mr. Waller. That lasted until along about the middle of the year
1948, sir. Pardon me, I mean 1950.
Mr. KuNziG. From there, where did you go, from 1950 to 1952?
Mr. Waller. From there, I was employed by United Furniture
Workers, CIO, in North Carolina, and subsequently was made district
worker of that area.
Mr. KuNziG. Then, from there?
Mr. Waller. I became ill and resigned my position, and retui'necl
back to Florida, and I went to Naples. I moved my family back to
Naples, and I tried to secure employment around Tam]:>a for a short
period. Then I worked on, in Miami, on the Union Record news-
paper, and after that my health was still bad, and I went to work
in construction work in Naples and I worked in construction work
there until May 1953, and at the request of the union I returned to
work for United Furniture Workers of America, and returned there
until October 194G, and at that time
Mr. KuNZiG. You mean 1946?
Mr. Waller. I mean 195o. At that time, I returned to Naples. I
was a bit ill, sir, and I was on sick leave, and suljsequently I secured
employment in an advertising business and subsequently I secured
employment in the advertising business in the newspaper where I am
presently employed.
Mr. Klnzig. Mr. Waller, have you at any time ever been a member
of the Communist Part}^?
Mr. Waller. I have, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. When did you join the Communist Party ?
Mr. Waller. It was in the latter part of 1945, sir.
Mr. KuNZiG. Would you kindly give the committee the circum-
stances of how you joined, who recruited you, and that sort of in-
formation ?
Mr. Waller. Well, sir, I was contacted in the union hall at 730
AVest Flagler Street bv Charles Smolikoff.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you spell that ?
Mr. Waller. S-m-o-l-i-k-o-f-f, I believe, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Continue.
Mr. Waller. He explained to me what the Comnumist Party was,
or what the Communist Party was supposed to have been, that "it was
;;n organization to be to the benefit and to help out in the building-
ti-ade-union movement in Florida aiul any other parts of the country.
On that basis, I agreed to join the Communist Party, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Wlio was this man ?
Mr. Waller. Smolikoff.
Mr. KuNziG. "\\niat was his position ?
Mv. Waller. At that time he was international representative of the
Industrial ITnion, Marine and Shipbuilding Workers, CIO.
Mr. Clardy. You mentioned meeting the gentleman at some union
hall ; do you mean to imply you met with him only once in that one
7292 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
conversation, or as there a series of that that led up to your becoming
a member?
Mr. Waller. The particular conversation was one direct conversa-
tion that I affiliated with the Communist Party. I had had quite
a number of meetings with him, and I admired him as a trade-union
leader.
Mr. Clardy. That was a sort of consummation of a series of events ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir ; I would say so.
Mr. Clardy. Continue describing how you actually got in the party.
Mr. Waller. From that meeting, I subsequently attended meetings
in a home here in Miami, and I can't recall the particular address where
I attended. At that time the application blanks for the membership
in the Communist Party were passed out, and at that time I signed an
application blank and became a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Clardy. Did you receive a Communist Party card?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. A short time after that meeting in the pri-
vate residence, I received a card which was dated for the period of
1945^6, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Would you describe the Communist Party card which
you received ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. It was the only, the one and only card I
ever received. It was originally given to me flat, and could be folded
up into four sections, and on that card it had space in there for your
membership dues and your initiation fees. It was kind of buff-colored,
and stamped on it with an ink-stamp pad was a hammer and sickle
a number on there, but I could not recall the actual number.
Mr. Clardy, But no one actually signed their name as a representa-
tive of the party; it merely had printed on it, "The Communist
Party"?
Mr. Waller. There was no actual signature I could recall.
Mr. ScHERER. As a member of the party, did you use your own
name?
Mr. Waller. I did, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you know if in any cases persons used fictitious
names?
Mr. Waller. In most cases, I found out subsequently, most people
did use fictitious names.
Mr. Doyle. I understood you to say on the card there appeared the
printed hammer and sickle?
Mr. Waller, Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Did not there also appear the stars and stripes?
Mr. Waller. No, sir ; it didn't sir, regrettably.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Kunzig.
Mr. Kunzig. To whom did you pay your dues, Mr. Waller ?
Mr. Waller. Most of the time I paid those to Charlie Smolikoff,
Mr, Kunzig. Wliat was his post in the Communist Party ? I take
it you knew him to be a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. He had recruited me, and he was looked
upon as a leader of the Communist Party in Miami and was at the
early stages of the game, in early 1945 and 1946, he was deemed to be
the leader of the Communist Party in the State of Florida, until the
party was assigned an organizer.
Mr. Kunzig. You mean at the same time he was a prominent union
official, he was also a prominent Communist ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7293
Mr. ScHERER. Again, would you describe just what his position was
in the union ?
Mr. Waller. It varied at various times. Originally when I first
knew him, sir, he was the international representative, I think. I be-
lieve his correct title was regional director in the shipbuilders union.
From there, when he was discharged from the shipbuilders union, we
hired him on local 59 of the shipbuilders. From there he was subse-
quently hired by the transport workers union.
Mr. Clardt. Was that shipbuilders, A. F. of L. or CIO ?
Mr. Waller. They are all CIO. Any information I have, outside
of specifically A. F. of L., I mean CIO, so the record may be straight.
Mr. Clardy. At this point, did he stay in the union, or what hap-
pened to him ?
Mr. Waller. I did not happen to be there at the time he was sub-
sequently terminated by the transport workers union, when they
cleaned house, and after that he was hired by the local union, and if
I recall correctly, and here, again this is hearsay from matters I read
in the newspapers, he was subsequently terminated from the local
union which had hired him on account of some activities around the
so-called cultural center.
Mr. Clardy. Wlien did those events take place ?
Mr. Waller. If I recall correctly, Congressman, it was somewhere
in the period of the latter part of 1948, or early part of 1949.
Mr. Clardy. After your testimony before the committee in the
earlier period?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. My testimony before the committee was in,
if I recall correctly, was in March 1948, sir.
Mr. KuNZiG. Now, Mr. Waller, could you tell the committee what
your functions were during the time you were a member of the Com-
munist Party ? Wliat were your party functions ?
Mr. Waller. One of them, I was chairman of the Trade Union
Club, and subsequently I was more or less in connection with Smoli-
koff, liaison between the club level and what is known as the section
level, in Miami, which is the governing body of the Communist Party
in Miami.
Mr. KuNziG. Wliat was the Trade Union Club ?
Mr. Waller. The Trade Union Club originally was a club that was
comprised of the trade-union people in Miami and the area, that were
members of the Communist Party.
Mr. KuNziG. All the trade union people who were in the party?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. You were at one time head of that?
Mr. Waller. At one time I was chairman of the club.
Mr. KuNziG. What were your functions as chairman of the Trade
Union Club ? What did you do, on a day-to-day basis ?
Mr. Waller. Actually in my official capacity as chairman, it was not
a very impressive thing. They rotated the chairmanship from time
to time, and the general idea was to educate the people in preparation
to be able to chair meetings, either Communist Party meetings, or any
other kind.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you deliver to the people at the meetings the Com-
munist Party line ? Who took care of that ?
7294 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Waller. From time to time, the specific instances I recall, tliere
were meetings they called educational meetings. At these meetings
was Avhen the educational point of view was raised. Specifically I can
recall at a series of these meetings the discussion was raised relative
to the Communist Manifesto, and the constitution of the Comnnmist
Party.
Mr. Moulder. "WHiat year were you chairman of this club?
Mr. Waller. T am almost positive it was early 104G.
Mr. Moulder. At that time, how many members belonged to that
club?
Mr. Waller. In the Trade Union Club, sir, I would say there were
possibly 6 or 7.
Mr. Moulder. Out of all the trade unions in Miami ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; I do believe. Congressman, there were other
people I was not aware of.
Mr. Moulder. All in one group, or scattered about ?
Mr. Waller. They were scattered about; some were affiliated with
the A. F. of L. and some were affiliated with the CIO.
Mr. Clardy. The size of your cell, to use that term, was 6 or 7, but
you think there were other cells you knew nothing about?
INIr. Waller. I think the testimony will develop there were various
other clubs in the area, but in the trade-union club, I would say, sir,
there were other people in the Communist Party in the trade unions
in Miami.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew, of course, many more than G or 7 Commu-
nists at this time?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; I knew quite a few, sir.
INIr. KuNziG. What other clubs did you knoAV about, personally, in
addition to the Trade Union Club, in Miami ?
Mr. Waller. Sir, there were several what we call clubs; there was
the professional club, there was the youth club, and there was a beach
club, and they went by various names, like that, sir. I knew, actually,
various people were members of the party.
Mr. KuNziCx. What were the functions of these other groui)S, so far
as lies in your personal knowledge?
Mr. Waller. The only contact I had was when the meetings I at-
tended on the sectional level, which was the governing body in Dade
County, each one had a specific assignment of one kind to carry out.
Primarily on the beach it was to raise funds, and in the trade-union
group, it was to sell literature, and various assignments. I think you
are familiar with the party-line changes from day to day, and you
did not know from one day to the next what was going to happen.
Mr. Clardy. You mentioned a youth club. Are you speaking now
of persons in your own age group at the time who were directing youth
activities, or were you speaking of youngsters themselves, when you
are using that term?
Mr. Waller. Congressman, I would say, to the best of mv knowl-
edge, they were people younger than I was, and I would say they were
in the early twenties, and I did not have too much connection with
that particular club, but I would say they were in the early twenties.
Mr. Clardy. Were they working with youths engaged in shipbuild-
ing, or other activities, or were they working among youths regardless
of where they were employed ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7295
Mr. Waller. They were working, generally, among the younger
generation.
Mr. Clardy. They were not drawing any line, such as a labor-union
group; they were spreading their activities clear across the board?
Mr. Waller. There had been several decisions, sir. I can go into
that, if 3^ou wish. There had been a lot of discussions, from what I
heard, of the hierarchy of the Communist Party. They wanted to
build workers clubs, but it was predominantly middle-class groups,
and the main line of attack of the party was to attack the laboring
groups. They felt there was too much middle-class gi'oups mixed up.
]Mr. KuNziG. What Avas the total period of time you were active
with the Communist Party?
Mr. Waller. From the period late 1945, sir, until the early part of
June 1948, when I went with the FBI.
Mr. KuNziG. You have given your story to the FBI ?
Mr. Waller. I have met with them on several occasions, and I went
to them and told them all the facts I kneAv of the Communist Party in
Miami, and statewide, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. I would like to ask you the following question, and
I Avant 5^ou to be explicit in your answer.
Will you give us the names of the people with wdiom you met as
members of the Communist Party ? Let me say very clearly, the com-
mittee is only interested in those names of people whom you knew to
be members ; not people of Avhom you had a suspicion, and not people
Avho might have been members, but only those people who you knew
to be members of the Commmiist Party. With that caveat, will you
tell us definitely?
]Mr. Clardy. Before we get further, what caused you to leave the
party?
Mr. Waller. I Avould say innnediately after joining the party I was
disillusioned as to their objectives, and, very frankly, I thought the
thing over for a period of a year and a half or 2 years. It isn't the
type of organization any honest American should join.
j\Ir. Clardy. Why did you come to that conclusion ?
iSIr. Waller. I think, sir, what meager knowledge I had of the
Communist Party led me to believe all you have got to do is to read
their literature and you become completely disillusioned. They are
as phony as all get-out.
]\Ir. Scherer. When did you find out the party was primarily
dedicated to the overthrow of the form of our Government by force
and violence? Wlien did you come to that conclusion, if you did
come to that conclusion ?
Mr. Waller. I did not actually, the people I talked to here in
Miami, sir, in the main, with the exception of possibly 1 or 2 people,
actually only 1 person I talked to in the Miami area, was dedicated in
that direction, but even before that, I became completely, as a matter
of fact, I joined the party in the latter part of 1945, and I became
completely disillusioned early in 1946, when the party began to tell
me how I had to do this and how I had to do that.
Mr, Scherer. But you stayed in until 1948 ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; I was trying to find some Avay out.
Mr. Clardy. But you regarded the literature itself as sufficient to
expose the "phony" nature of the movement ?
7296 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. I think anybody in their right mind who
sits down and reads the literature should leave the party right there.
Mr. Clardy. I agree with you, but you know there are a good many
people Avho call themselves intellectuals, men in professions, and teach-
ing law, and they haven't discovered it.
Mr. Waller. Congressman, I am just a dumb worker, and I made
it, I may differ with the committee on that.
Mr. Clardy. I think you are to be congratulated on having a better
grasp of the realities than these people who think they are smart, but
in reality are not.
Mr. Waller. I think anybody who reads the Communist Party lit-
erature, I sincerely believe if anybody reads Communist literature,
that eventually they are going to see the light of day.
Mr. Clardy. The Communist Manifesto is rather garbled.
Mr. Waller. I remember very clearly the last time that I appeared
before the committee, my sainted mother was over in the corner. I
can remember she raised me to be a halfway decent guy, and in the
Communist Manifesto it says that religion is the opiate of the people.
Right there that knocks it out.
Mr. Clardy. That was the tipoff ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. You mentioned a minute ago you might be speaking
against the philosophy of the committee; I assure you you are not.
Mr. Waller. If I disagree with you, I am going to say so.
Mr. Velde. We want you to.
Mr. Waller. I think you do.
Mr. Doyle. "V^Hien you started to answer the question of my col-
league who asked you about the advocacy of force and violence to
overthrow our country, you said actually there was only one person
you talked to who was headed in that direction, do you remember
saying that?
JSIr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Was that person known to you to be a Communist Party
member?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. Doyle. Are you in a position now to tell us who that person
was?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir ; I am.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please do that ?
Mr. Waller. His name is Charlie Smolikoff.
Mr. Doyle. The same man whose name you gave a few minutes
ago?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Do I understand from your testimony, he, in conver-
satitons with you, advocated, or led you to believe he was advocating
the forceful and violent overthrow of our constitutional form of gov-
ernment ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Where did that conversation take place?
Mr. Waller. I can't specifically recall the conversation, Congress-
man, as to time and date, but I know definitely he had discussed the
matter with me several times, as specifically opposed to a f>olitical
change — this was a force and violence deal.
COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7297
Mr. Doyle. What do you mean as different between political and a
change by force and violence as advocated by him ?
Mr. Waller. Sir, I think we have to recognize we do have two po-
litical parties in the coiintr}', and I am quite sure you are biased in
your opinion in that respect, and I am quite sure I am too. I think
we can operate within that framework of disposing of anybody in the
political party, but on the other hand, if we undertake to overthrow
the Government itself by force and violence and sovietize this coun-
try, I think there is a very specific difference, and I know on different
instances Smolikoff has talked to me about sovietizing this country.
Mr. Doyle. I presume our counsel is going into that further. If he
is, I will drop my questions ; if he isn't, I will continue further.
Mr. KuNziG. Go ahead.
Mr. Doyle. Do I understand from you Mr, Charles Smolikoff ad-
vised you he favored, in effect or substance, the forceful and violent
overthrow of the United States Government ?
Mr. Waller. In my opinion, in conversations I recall, he seemed
to think we would have a much better form of government if we
sovietized the United States. In other words, bring about the type
of regime they have in Russia.
Mr. Doyle. Did he advocate to you, in your presence, that that
should be brought about, if need be, by using force and violence?
Mr. Waller. He advocated it by any means.
Mr. Doyle. Did that occur on more than one occasion in the city
of Miami ?
Mr. Waller. I would say that discussions occurred, sir, in prob-
ably 2 or 3 instances, but actually I brushed it off, because I don't think
too many of the Communists here in town are rough and tumble, any-
how.
Mr. Doyle. During what years did you have those conversations
with him ?
Mr. Waller. It was in the period 1946 to 1948, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Was anyone else present and heard him ?
Mr. Waller. At this minute, Congressman, I cannot recall any spe-
cific instances where there was anyone else there.
I would like to be able to specifically point out and know definitely
where I will be able to testify to that effect, and I think you know as
well as I do 6 or 7 years ago, you have to refresh your memory.
Mr. Doyle. I realize that. And I have not discussed this subject
with you ?
Mr. Waller. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Therefore, in asking you these questions, I am looking
for a specific answer also because tlie advocacy of the use of force and
violence in overthrowing our constitutional form of government is
a very definite subject in which this committee is interested because
that, clearly, is subversive.
Mr. Waller. I agree.
Mr. Moulder. When Witness Waller proceeds to name persons
known to have been members of the Communist Party, counsel should
further instruct that he identify them by residence or occupation,
so we may question them.
Mr, Waller. That is one point I would like to bring out. If I
mention names, God knows I don't want to smear nobody. I am very
55634— 55— pt. 1 2
7298 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
glad you raised that point. I want to identify them as best I possibly
can. If tlie connnittee has any photographs they wish to offer in
evidence, it will be a big help, but God knows I don't want to smear
nobody.
Mr. ScHERER. Was Smolikoff in the party at the time you left?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; at the time I left in June 1948 he still re-
mained in the party.
Mr. SciiERER. What was his business occupation at that time?
]\Ir. Waller. When I left he was still international representative
of the Transport Workers.
Mr. ScHERER. In what union ?
Mr. Waller. Transport Workers Union.
Mr. Scherer. a. F. of L. or CIO?
Mr. Waller. CIO.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know where he is today ? _
Mr. Waller. No, sir; I don't. Since the committee is in town, I
liave a very good idea he is out of town.
Mr. KuNziG. For the record, botli Charles and Bertha Smolikoff,
we have searched diligently for, and they are two of those who have
definitely fled.
jNIr. Clardy. Pursuing the line Congressman Doyle was interested
in, and in which we are all interested, didn't you have in the Com-
munist literature itself an advocacy of the overthrow of the Govern-
ment by force and violence? Though the last thought was vague,
it conveyed that idea.
Mr. Waller. Congressman, I would say the type of literature that
was distributed to us down here in the South, I think we have to make
a basic difference — if I say the party changes its line day by day, in
various locals it changes its line from point to point. Probably some
of them developed literature which I did not read. Possibly they did
develop that line, but the main line of propaganda and thinking we
received here was, "We are willing to help you people down here,
the Negro and wliite and what have you."
Mr. Clardy. They were trying to sell you a bill of goods by helping
you?
Mr. Waller. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. But the Communist Party clearly and specifically
advocates the overthrow of our governments, except the Soviet's, by
force and violence ?
Mr. Waller. At the time tlie Communist Manifesto was written, I
don't think there was a Soviet Union.
Mr. Clardy. No, not in 1848, but it advocated the overthrow of
constitutional governments everywhere — "Workers of the world, arise ;
you have nothing to lose but your chains."
]Mr. Waller. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. And that was followed through in the literature you
had, in somewhat the same language ?
Mr. Waller. Yes. I do think ]\Iarx was eloquent; that might be
the term. The propaganda and literature we received here was re-
duced to simpler facts, but I think it was basically the same thing.
Mr. Clardy. Thank you.
^Ir. KuNziG. Could you give us these names, being careful to give
us only those who you knew definitely to be members of the party, and
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7299
as Mr. Moulder said, we are anxious to get some personal identifica-
tion so we will know exactly who you are speaking about.
Mr. Waller, I am prepared to name people I definitely have knowl-
edge of, who are members of the Communist Party. I do think this,
if there are any of them in the courtroom, and I understand this is
against the rules of the committee, if I find myself in conflict with
the rules of the committee, I think anyone in the room should have
the right to cross-examine me. I think that is something the people
should have the right to do.
Mr. Clardy. Would it surprise you to know that we have a rule and
practice of permitting anyone identified before this committee to ap-
pear and testify, and thus far no one has taken advantage of that
opportunity ?
Mr. Waller. I would like to request if there is anybody here who
wants to come up and call me a liar, I want them to do it.
Mr. Clardy. They will probably do that after you leave the stand ;
they will call you an informer and skunk, and a rat, and all the terms
they use against anyone who has the fortitude and
Mr. Waller. I have been called a lot of names by people who were
not Communists.
Mr. Clardy. You are going to be identified by all the names.
Mr. Waller. I can recall a certain Miami newspaper, not the morn-
ing paper, who gives me a very thorough going over.
Mr. KuNZiG. Will you now continue with the names ?
Mr. Waller. A partial list of the names, sir, and there may be some
other people you may wish to question me about — I don't believe this
is a complete list, but as I stated before, it is a partial list of the
people I knew as members of the Communist Party. I know if I had
been a better Communist, probably I could give you a little bit better
testimony.
I did know Harvey Baker.
Mr. KuNziG. Wliere did Harvey Baker live?
Mr. Waller. AVlien I first knew Harvey Baker, he was executive
secretary of local 32 in Jacksonville, Fla., of the shipbuilders union.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew him to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. Subsequently he went to work for the
F. T. A., Food, Tobacco, and Agricultural Workers.
Mr. KuNziG. This was all during the latter part of 1945 to 1948
that you are talking about ?
Mr. Waller. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. And only that time, because that was the only time you
were a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Waller. During that period of time.
Mr. Moulder. He inquired as to the approximate date; can you
further identify them as to age and description ?
Mr. Waller. Sir, I would say he was approximately about my age,
between 40 to 45, in that age bracket.
Mr. Moulder. At that time?
Mr. Waller. Now, sir. And he was a sign painter, and was also
executive secretary of Local 32 of the Shipbuilders, and subsequently
he went to work for the Food, Tobacco, and Agricultural Workers,
in the central part of the State.
Mr. Scherer. A. F. of L., or what?
7300 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Waller. CIO.
Mr. Moulder. Can you describe the man ? You have given a very
good identification.
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. He was, I would say, medium height, and
skinny-built guy, and at tops, he did not weigh 150 pounds.
Mr. Doyle. How do you know he was a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Waller. I have attended quite a number of party meetings
with him. To the best of my recollection, I did attend the Com-
munist Party convention in Tampa with him.
Mr. Dotle. Did he have any other name by which he was normally
called?
Mr. Waller. Not that I know of. The only thing I ever knew
him by was Harvey Baker, and I believe that was his true name.
Mr. Clardy. Is he still around Miami?
Mr. Waller. I haven't seen him in 6 or 7 years ; whether he is still
in the vicinity, I don't know.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you continue, then, with others?
Mr. Waller. I also knew Lois Baker.
Mr. KuNziG. Is she related to Harvey Baker?
Mr. Waller. She was his wife.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew her to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. At one time she was secretary of the Com-
munist Party in the State of Florida.
Mr. D0Y1.E. How did you know her to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Waller. I was at the convention when she was elected, sir.
Mr. Doyle. The reason I am asking you those positive questions
is for the purpose of positive identification.
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir ; I appreciate that.
Mr. KuNziG. Wlio else ?
Mr. Waller. I also knew a person in Miami by the name of Leah
Adler. I understand that her true name was
Mr. KuNziG. Benemovsky ?
Mr. Waller. I believe that is correct.
Mr. KuNziG. Could you describe further Leah Adler Benemovsky ?
Mr. Waller. She was a short woman of slim build, and she was,
for the Dade County section, she was the Communist Party secretary.
She kept the records.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know an address, or where she worked ?
Mr. Waller. She lived on Miami Beach. As to where she worked,
I have no definite knowledge.
Mr. KuNziG. That is the most you can give us in the way of
identification ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; but I know definitely she kept the records
of the Communist Party here in Miami.
Mr. KuNziG. Wlio else ?
Mr. Waller. Joe Carbonell.
Mr. KuNZiG. C-a-r-b-o-n-e-1-1?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; he is Spanish. Actually it was spelled
J-o-s-e, but most people knew him by Joe, and he was a member of
the party, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7301
Mr. KuNziG. Wliere did Joe Carbonell work? Identify him fur-
ther, please.
Mr. Waller. I understand he originally worked in Miami Ship-
builders, but I know of specific instances where he worked around
town as a cabinetmaker. He is of Latin descent.
Mr. KuNziG. About how old is he today ; can you estimate ?
Mr. Waller. I would say possibly somewhere around 50.
Mr. KuNziG. Can vou give us any other identification of Jose
Carbonell?
Mr. Waller. Outside of the fact I definitely know he has been at
party meetings, but general descriptions, if you have a picture, I
could possibly make positive identification, because I know Joe very
well.
Mr. KuNziG. Any others, Mr, Waller?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; I remember Prof. Charles Davis, who at
one time was employed by the University of Miami, and I am almost
positive he was professor of marine zoology. And subsequently,
somewhere around about that period of time I left the party, I think
he left town, but I think it was some question about his leaving the
university.
Mr. KuNziG, Are there any others now ?
Mr. D0Y1.E. How does the witness know that Davis was a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Waller. He attended the State party meeting in Tampa, Fla.
I was at the meeting with Professor Davis, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you continue, please?
Mr. Waller. Homer Bates Chase. I first met Chase when I was —
to my knowledge he was the first Communist organizer assigned to
the State of Florida, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you describe him to us ?
Mr. Waller. He was a tall, wiry guy ; about 180 pounds ; possibly
40 or 45 years old.
Mr. KuNziG. Was he a professional organizer? Was he paid for
his services by the party, or did he have another job ?
Mr. Waller. He was paid for organizing the Communist Party.
Mr. Ku]srziG. Do you know where he was living at that time?
Mr. Waller. I am almost positive he was living in Jacksonville.
He was in the Miami area quite frequently.
Mr. Moulder. Do you know by whom he was paid?
Mr. Waller. He was paid by the Communist Party. I have no
actual knowledge of that, I have never seen his pay check or any-
thing like that; but I was told — he told me he was on the Communist
Party staff.
Mr. Moulder. The State organization ?
Mr. Waller. No, sir ; on the national payroll, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. To your knowledge he spent his full time working
for the Communist Party ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir ; that was definitely his assignment — on that
particular thing, I mean. The name of Chase is in the record.
Shortly after the committee appeared in Miami the last time, Mr.
Chase chastized me severely for not coming before the committee and
saying I was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you repeat that?
7302 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Waller. Shortly after the committee left Miami in 1948, he
chastized me for technically evading the committee. He said I
nhould have gone before the committee.
Mr. Moulder. Was it his position that he appeared?
Mr. Waller. It was the old story of throwing the cat on some
other back.
Mr. M0UT.DER. Was it his position that you should not deny the
fact but be proud of it ?
Mr. Waller. That was his argument ; yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you continue, please, sir ?
Mr. Doyle. Do you know where Mr. Chase was when you last heard
of him?
INIr. Waller. The last I heard he was the Comniunist Party or-
ganizer in Georgia. I have had no contact with him since he contacted
me immediately after the committee was down here in 1948, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Continue, sir.
Mr. Waller. Also, Frank Diez.
Mr. KuxziG. Is that spelled D-i-e-z?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. I think it is a Latin derivative, Francisco.
But I knew he was the president of the cigar workers in Tampa. He
was also the international president of the Cigar Workers, A. F. of L.
Mr. KuNziG. You are speaking of his union connections ; but he was
also a member of the Communist Party. Is that right?
Mr. Waller. That is right, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Tampa is his home as far as you know ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir, he lived in Tampa to the best of my knowl-
edge, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you describe or identify him further ?
Mr. Waller. He was a little bit short ; and swarthy.
Mr. Doyle. How do you know he was a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Waller. I attended a meeting in New Orleans and Tampa, sir.
INIr. Doyle. When did you attend the meeting? What year?
Mr. Waller. It was the period of time between — it was 1946 or
1947, sir. I will have to refresh my memory on that.
I also knew two people here in this area, Leah Feldman
Mr. KuNziG. Is that L-e-a-h?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; and Phillip Feldman.
Mr. KuNziG. Husband and wife?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you describe them further, please?
Mr. Waller. They were a young couple living in Miami. I would
say they were a few years younger than I am; probably 5 or 6 years
younger than I am. They were active in the period of 1945 and 1946;
and there was some conversation I had with other people in the party
after that — I mean I understand they left the party. That is hearsay
testimony, sir. A lot of times the question arises, "Wliat became of
so-and-so ?" That question arose a couple of times and I was told they
left the party.
Mr. KuNziG. I think the record should show at this time that
whether or not the Feldmans left the party, they also left town and no
information where they could be obtained from. The photography
shop whci'e ISIr. Feldman should be was closed and the children have
been taken out of school and have disappeared completely.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7303
Mr. Clardy. Did our staff make an attempt to serve them ?
Mr. KuNziG. Yes, sir, and the United States marshal.
Mr. Clardy. Without success?
Mr. KuNziG. Yes, sir ; and I want to say at this time, if tliere is any
citizen who knows where they could be or if they are now in reach of
my voice over the radio or read about it in the newspapers, we will be
only too glad to have them come and testify before this committee.
Mr. ScHERER. You don't expect them to accept your invitation, do
you?
Mr. Velde. I would like to say at this point that we have had a
great many hearings throughout the country and heard a great many
witnesses; and every time a person is identified by an able witness
such as you are, sir ; such a person is given permission to come before
the committee and confirm or deny the charge that he is a member of
the Communist Party. To date, we have had no person come before
the committee to either confirm or deny he was a member of the Com-
munist Party as described by that particular witness. We have had
witnesses come in and admit they were members of the Communist
Party but none have confirmed or denied the testimony of other
witnesses.
Mr. ScHERER. But we have had experiences other than here where
we come into the city and the prospective witness has left town.
Mr. Waller. I would like to point out to the committee that I was
legally subpenaed and that is how I came down.
Mr. KuNziG. The witness was referring to the 1948 appearance ; not
this now.
Mr. Scherer. This was an order?
Mr. Waller. Yes ; I was handed this, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Can you give more specific evidence of the people
you just named as being members of the Communist Party? Can
you further identify them by a statement that they can be found or
served by subpena?
Mr. Waller. I can. Particularly and specifically I recall that I
attended a Communist Party meeting in Tampa in which I drove my
car over in the company of several people; and at that time I know
definitely that ^Mrs. Feldman was in the car when I attended the
Communist Party meeting in Tampa.
Mr. Moulder. AVliat kind of meeting ? What was done there ? Plow
would you identify it as a Communist Party meeting?
Mr. Waller. It was a State, closed-door meeting of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Moulder. How many people were there and where was it held?
Mr. Waller. It was held in the Cigar Workers Hall in Tampa and
people were there from all over the State.
Mr. Moulder. AVlio did you say was present there on this occasion,
sir?
Mr. Waller. She was, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Do you know of any other occasion when they at-
tended party meetings?
Mr. Waller. I can't specifically recall. They were in a different
group than I was. It was the policy down here to keep groups
Mr. Moulder. Was this strictly a 'Communist Party meeting?
Mr. Waller. It was definitely a Communist Party meeting.
Mr. Moulder. No one else wasthere but Communist Party members ?
7304 COAIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Waller. Definitely, sir.
Mr. Moulder. You said tliey left the Communist Party?
Mr. Waller. That was my understanding, sir, in a conversation
I had. There was some criticism about them; and I was led to be-
lieve they left the party, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. You had that information about the same period of
time ?
Mr. Waller. At the same time. I got that information along in
the early part of 19-18, sir; that they had left.
Mr. Moulder. Can you identify them as to occupation; the Feld-
man's; and their residence or a description so that they will not be
confused with any other person by that name ?
Mr. Waller. They lived in the southwest section. I don't exactly
recall where now, sir; but he was a photographer by trade and she
was a housewife.
Mr. Moulder. You mean he had a photography shop of his own ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. I believe he eventually branched and had
his own business in photography.
Mr. Moulder. Did you have any other occasion to come in contact
with them ; any other way, socially or in a business way ?
Mr, Waller. Yes; I would contact them on occasion, Mr. Congress-
man ; not particularly socially but I had contact with them from time
to time.
Mr. Moulder. In what capacity ?
Mr. Waller. Mainly in my union work. Very frankly, sir, they
were both nice people. I mean, I liked them.
Mr. Doyle. In view of the statement above, I think we should
call attention to the listening audience that under rule 10 it specifically
provides that any person named before this committee as being a
Communist is promptly notified by registered mail of that fact at his
last-known address. The person named is not only notified of the fact
that he has been named before the committee ; but is given the name
of the person naming him and giving testimony about him. That in-
formation is sent to the last-known address by registered mail promptly
by the committee and the person named is given an opportunity to
appear before the committee personally, by mail, or in any way.
This is the first time, we believe, in history, that Congress has had any
such ruling adopted or put into effect. So, never again let it be said
that any person named as a Communist before this committee has no
knowledge that he has been named, sir.
Mr. Velde. At this point I would like to appoint a subcommittee of
Mr. Scherer, Mr. Clardy, Mr. Doyle, and myself.
Mr. Waller. I would like to say one word that ties in with what
the gentleman from California just said. Any person here that I
name I am willing to testify about in Federal court; and I am willing
to be subjected to cross-examination the same as I am here, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you continue with the names, sir.
Mr. Waller. Celia Greenberg.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you describe Celia Greenberg.
Mr. Waller. She is elderly. A gray-haired woman ; and at one
time she^had a cafeteria or cafe on Miami Beach; or 1 or 2 in a chain.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew her to be a member of the Communist
Party?
COMMUlSriST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7305
Mr. "Waller. I did, sir. I also knew Frank Jeliii.
Mr. KuNziG. Spell that Jahn.
Mr. Waller. J-a-h-n. I am not sure that is the correct spelling.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you describe him.
Mr. Waller. He was slim built with a swarthy complexion.
Mr. KuNziG. Roughly, how old would you say he was ?
Mr. Waller. Past the 50 mark, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Past the 50 mark in 1948?
Mr. Waller. In 1948, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Returning to this Celia Greenberg. How did you
know she was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Waller. I attended meetings with her.
Mr. Doyle. Do I understand whenever you sat in with the members ;
with these people ; they were closed Communist Party meetings ?
Mr. Waller. That is correct, sir ; unless there is some specific inci-
dent that is mainly the case.
Mr. KuNziG. All right' go ahead.
Mr. Waller. I knew Rose Kirkpatrick.
Mr. KuNziG. How do you know she was a member of the Commu-
nist Party ?
]Mr. Waller. She is the secretary to George Nelson, a Communist
Party organizer.
IMr. KuNziG. You know George Nelson to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Waller. George Nelson succeeded Homer Bates Chase as Com-
munist Party organizer in the State.
Mr. KuNziG. How do you know Rose Kirkpatrick was a member?
Mr. Waller. To the best of my knowledge she is. She was his
secretary and helped out in Jacksonville.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you have definite knowledge that she was a member
of the party ?
Mr. Waller. That is my assumption. I have no definite knowl-
edge.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you have any knowledge of her age ?
Mr. Waller. About 45 years old. She told me she served as a
nurse in the Lincoln Brigade. I would definitely identify her as a
member, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. "\Ylio else ?
Mr. Waller. John Lackner.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you identify him fiu-ther, please, sir?
Mr. Waller. At the time I knew John he was national director of
the FTA workers, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. The CIO?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. He had a position with the union at the same time he
was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you say the Communist Party, or could you
give us any statement of your own personal knowledge that it was the
purpose of the Communist Party to infiltrate or control unions ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; I think so. It was definitely the policy of
the party if they couldn't control a union, to destroy it. I think I
would like to state this for the record that to my knowledge the work-
7306 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
ers here in Miami with a little help, guidance, and advice, would throw
off all shackles of communism. The unions here in Miami are very
good, clean unions, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. I would like the record to show with reference to the
Lincoln Brigade that it was brought out in a fight against communism
in 1949 by the Mays committee that it had been serving as a Com-
munist front and a Communist group to recruit American boys in
behalf of Loyalist Spain.
Mr. Velde. I would like to say that the hearings have shown in the
past several years that the Lincoln Brigade is one of the most dedi-
cated organizations for the overthrow of our form of government.
Mr. KuNziG. You mentioned John Lackner. Continue, sir,
Mr. Waller. I knew John Lackner was a member of the party. I
identified him as the regional director of the FTA.
Mr. KuNziG. At that time?
Mr. Waller. At that time. There was an organizer came down ;
at least the fellow was sent down ; Irving Liebold.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you identify him further, please?
Mr. Waller. He was sent to organize the department store workers.
While I have no actual knowledge of his attending party meetings,
he was introduced to me by Smolikoff as a member of the party, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. On your statement on the Communist Party invading
unions awhile ago, you also stated that you had no connection with the
party since 1948 ; is that correct?
Mr. Waller. That is correct.
Mr. KuNziG. Then any efforts on the part of the Communist Party
to infiltrate unions today, you would have no knowledge of, sir?
Mr. Waller. Wait a minute ; I did do work for trade unions until
1953, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. But not with the Communist Party ?
Mr. Waller. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. You already mentioned George Nelson. Who else
after George Nelson?
Mr. Waller. I knew a Negro by the name of Osa
Mr. KuNziG. 0-s-a?
Mr. Waller. That is correct, sir. Osa L. Nickerson.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you identify Osa L. Nickerson ?
Mr. Waller. He was employed in laundries; and, as I understand
it, he was tied in with the old organization of FTA. To the best of
my knowledge, Nickerson broke with the party. I heard quite a bit
of criticism, and he is not with the party.
Mr. KuNziG. How old was he when he was a party member ?
(Mr. Moulder reentered the hearing room at this point.)
Mr. Waller. He was about my age. He weighed about 200 pounds,
and he had served in the Navy, too, sir.
Mr. Velde. I think it should be brought out in the record that the
word "Negro"' is used purely for tlie purpose of identification.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else?
Mr. Waller. James Nimmo.
Mr. KiTNziG. Cau you identify him further?
Mr. Waller. He was organizer of the A. F. of L. laundry w^orkers
in Miami.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know where he lived ?
Mr. Waller. He lived in the southwest section: south 20th Street.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7307
Mr. KuNziG. While he was an oroanizer of the laundry workers
you knew he was a Communist?
Mv. "Wali.kr. Yes, sir.
M\\ KuNZiG. You have identilied Osa Nickerson. Who else besides
Osa Nickerson?
Mr. Waller. I knew a person by the name of Esther Norris.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you describe her, please?
Mr. Waller. She was ca slim-built woman — I would say around—
it is difficult to describe a woman's age, around 40 or 45, to the best of
my knowledge. She worked in a department store downtown.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else besides Esther Norris?
Mr. Waller. I knew a person by the name of Louis Ornitz.
Mr. KuNziG. 0-r-n-i-t-z?
Mr. Waller. That is correct, sir.
Mr. KuNZiG. Where is he from?
Mr. Waller. I was around in the Tampa area when I knew him, sir.
He was employed by the A. F. of L. cigar workers. I knew him in the
Tampa area. I have attended State and regional Communist Party
meetings with him, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else?
Mr. Waller. I also knew T^uis J. Popps. He was employed by
Pan American Airways, in town here, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. How was he employed ?
Mr. Waller. As a porter, I believe, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Is he white or Negro ?
Mr. Waller. Negro, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you identify him any other way ?
Mr. Waller. He is about my size, sir, without the tummy. I think
Popps is really a very honest and decent guy, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Do you know where he is now? Where he is em-
ployed ? Have you seen him recently ?
Mr. Waller. 'I stayed at a hotel with him in New York some 15
days. I returned home Thanksgiving. He returned shortly after
that, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Continue.
Mr. Waller. Dr. David Prensky.
Mr. KuNziG. P-r-e-n-s-k-y?
Mr. Waller. That is correct, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you identify him further, please.
Mr. Waller. To the best of my knowledge, the last recollection I
had of Dr. Prensky he was a dentist on Miami Beach, sir,
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know anything about his present wdiereabouts ?
Mr. Waller. No, sir, I have no knowledge of his present where-
abouts.
Mr. KuNZiG. Next, please.
jNIr. Waller. I also knew Mario Rodriguez or Mariano in Tampa.
Mr. Moulder. You say you knew him. Did you know of your own
personal knowledge that he was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; I attended meetings with him in Tampa,
sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Could you describe him further, please.
Mr. Waller. Heavy set; black haired. I would say that when I
knew him he was approximately 50 years old. He was some kind of
an official in the Cigar Workers A. F. of L. in Tampa.
7308 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. KuNziG. So that the record may be clear, I want the record to
state definitely at this time that you are naming people at the present
time you knew to be members of the Communist Party. Is that
correct ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; I am only naming people that I would go
into court and testify are true members.
Mr. KuxziG. After Eodriguez who is next, please?
Mr. Waller. I knew a fellow by the name of Joseph Rosenkrantz
here in town.
Mr. KuNziG. Identify him further, please.
Mr. Waller. He was heavy set; approximately — over the 200-
pound mark in my opinion; reasonably young and more or less in and
out of the party. He was in a different group than mine, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. But you knew definitely he was a member?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you identify him further ?
Mr, Waller. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Wlio is next ?
Mr. Waller. I also knew a person — I actually don't know his cor-
rect name ; Jack Strong or Sapphire.
Mr. KuNziG. Did he go under the two names ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir ; I knew him under the name in the party of
Jack Strong; but it is my understanding that he went around town
by the name of Isador Sapphire.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you identify him further ?
Mr. Waller. He had a jewelry business somewhere close down by
the depot here, sir, and a watch-repair shop. He was educational
director of the Commmiist Party in the Miami area.
Mr. KuNziG. What was his function as educational director ? Wliat
did he do ?
Mr. Waller. From the personal knowledge I have, sir, he went
to various clubs and read and discussed as I testified previously the
communistic literature such as the manifesto and the constitution of
the Communist Party, sir.
Mr. KuNZiG. All right. Who is next?
Mr. Waller. I also knew Phil Scheffsky.
Mr. KuNziG. Is that Philip ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. How do you spell Scheffsky ?
Mr. Waller. S-c-h-e-f-f-s-k-y.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you describe Phil Scheffsky further.
Mr. Waller. Pie is a steward of Pan American Airways, chief
steward ; and belongs to the Local 500. Subsequently he became presi-
dent of the Local 500.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you have any further identification?
Mr. Waller. He is of medium build and has dark hair. I think
that would be a general description, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. "t^Hio else, now ?
Mr. Waller. I also knew jMike Shantzek. I am not sure of the
spelling on that.
Mr. KuxziG. Would you identify Mike Shantzek further?
Mr. Waller. He was a painter in the A. F. of L. union here in
town, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7309
In conversations with him he told me he also served in the Lincoln
Brigade.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew him to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Waller, I knew him to be a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. How do you know he was a member of the party. I
think if a person's name is mentioned some specific evidence should
be given.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Moulder, I think you were out of the room when
he said with each person he mentioned here he had attended closed
meetings with the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. I understand ; but I still want to ask the question.
Mr. Waller. I specifically remember, sir, I sat in closed meetings
of the party with Shantzek.
Mr. KuNziG. Wliere ?
Mr. Waller. At 730 West Flagler Street here in town. We sat at
Union Hall around the table.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else, please ?
INIr. Waller. Leo Sheiner.
Mr. KuNziG. Was he the attorney ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. The Leo Sheiner who was disbarred as an attorney
here ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew him personally to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. I never attended any Communist Party
meetings with him ; but I was introduced to him by Smolikoff ; and I
had several conversations with him about Communist Party meetings.
Mr. JNIouLDER. Did he specifically admit to you that he was a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Waller. I can't recall whether he did specifically. He was in-
troduced as a member of the party and he didn't deny it.
]Mr. Moulder. "\"\nio introduced you ?
Mr. Waller. Smolikoff.
Mr. Clardy. ^^-lien you attended closed party meetings, was he at
any of those meetings?
Mr. Waller. At the present time I have no direct recollection of
attending closed party meetings with him ; but Smolikoff introduced
he and I as members of the Communist Party; and I had a conversa-
tion with him about the Communist activities in the city.
Mr. Velde. In your conversation were you led to believe that he
knew a lot about the party and was a member of the party?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir; in my opinion, since we discussed various
Communist Party affairs here in the city; and in view of the intro-
duction and this, that, and the other thing, sir, I felt very strongly
that he was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. You say he was introduced as a member. Didn't
he deny it ?
Mr. Waller. He didn't deny it.
Mr. Clardy. In the introduction were you both introduced as mem-
bers of the party, sir ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Wlio else after Leo Sheiner ?
7310 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Wallj:r. Charlie Smolikoff.
Mr. KuNziG. You already mentioned him ; is that correct ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. AAHio else ?
Mr. Waller. I also knew his wife, Bertha Smolikoff, to be a member
of the party.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else ?
Mr. Waller. Joe Soloman. I believe that is correct, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Describe Joe Soloman further, sir.
Mr. Waller. Joe was rather a slim-built o;iiy pushing his sixties.
What his occupation was, I don't know. But I attended closed Com-
munist Party meetings with him, sir.
Mr. ]\IouLDER. Have you seen him since that time? So you know
where he is now ?
Mr. Waller. No, sir. I believe the next time I saw him was when
[ was subpenaed before Mr. Taylor, county solicitor, prior to 1948;
rhen the committee came down here, sir.
INIr. KuNziG. Who else beside Joe Soloman ?
Mr. Waller. i\Iax Strauss.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you identify him?
Mr, Waller. He was a heavy-set guy. He also worked on the
sectional level, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know where he lives or anything of that
nature ?
Mr. Waller. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know anything about his work or employment ?
Mr. Waller. About his work, 1 don't know; but he was fairly
active on the sectional level in town — the governing body of the Com-
munist Party in Dade County, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else after Joe Soloman ?
Mr. Waller. George Trencher.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you spell that, please?
Mr. Waller. T-r-e-n-c-h-e-r; and his wife Euth Treucher.
jNIr. KuNziG. Identify them further, please.
Mr. Waller. Thev lived in the southwest section, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Of Miami?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir. And as I recall they were both a little bit
heavy set. At one time he was the chairman that handled the litera-
ture of tjie Communist Party in the city here, sir.
Mr. KuNZTG. Do you know anything about his employment or any-
thing of that nature?
Mr. Waller. I can't for the life of me say.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else?
Mr. Waller. Raul Vidal.
Mr. KuNziG. Describe Mr. Vidal further, please.
Mr. Waller. Vidal is a member of Pan American Aii-ways. I have
'm occasion attended party meetings with him, sir.
Mr. Kttnzig. Is he of Cuban extraction?
Mr. Waller. Of Latin descent.
Mr. KuNziG. Do yon know if he is still in the party or not?
Mr. Waller. No, sir; he is not, sir.
^r. KuNziG. Who else?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7311
Mr. Waller. I also knew a person by the name of William Zncker-
man.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you identify him further, please.
Mr. Waller. To the best of my knowledge he was a former Army
officer. He was active among some of the professional groups here in
town, sir.
Mr. SciiERER. Was he a member of the party during the time he
was in the armed services?
Mr. Waller. That I don't know, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Was he out of the Army when you knew him ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir, discharged and here, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know the name of Max Shlafrock?
Mr. Waller. Yes, the name is very familiar but I can't at this time
recall any specific incident that would tie him into the party.
Mr. KuNziG. The only reason I mentioned the name, you already
told us you knew Max Shlafrock to be a member of the party.
Mr. Waller. I am almost positive he was, sir ; but I cannot put him
down to anything specific.
Mr. Velde. He appears to have no specific knowledge but he con-
siders him a member. I think at this time we will adjourn until 2
o'clock this afternoon.
(Thereupon, at 12 : 30 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m., the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 2 p. m., of the same day, the proceedings were
resumed, the same parties being present. )
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order. Let the reporter note
I have appointed a subcommittee of Scherer, Clardy, Doyle, and my-
self. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. KuNziG. Just as we closed at lunch time, we were discussing
a person by the name of Shlafrock. You didn't make a positive iden-
tification ; and I would like at this time that the testimony concerning
Mr. Schlafrock be expunged from the record.
Mr. Velde. Without objection the testimony of Mr. Waller con-
cerning Mr. Shlafrock will be expunged from the record.
Mr. KuNziG. I would like to ask you a further question about Pro
fessor Davis. Am I correct that you testified you believe he is no
longer connected with the University of Miami ?
TESTIMONY OP EDWIN WALLER— Resumed
Mr. Waller. To the best of my knowledge he is no longer connected
there.
Mr. KuNziG. Tell us briefly how you came out of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Waller. Well, sir, I became very disgusted a short time after I
became affiliated with the Communist Party ; and it become a question
of how to get out. I struggled with myself for a period of time — a
a couple of years — and I thought, frankly, the only solution to my
problem would be to go to the FBI, which I did, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. I have no further questions.
Mr. Velde. Any questions ?
7312 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. ScHERER. No questions.
Mr. Clardy. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. You just stated to the question how did you get out of
the Communist Party or quit the party that you decided to get out
through the FBI. Why did you have to go to that extreme? Why
didn't you just notify the party you resigned ?
Mr. Waller. I understand — this is probably hearsay testimony —
but I understand that once you become affiliated with the Communist
Party it is very difficult to break from it. I wanted my Government
to kiiow I was on record as breaking with the Communist Party ; and
for that reason I went to the FBI, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Didn't you find the communistic program doing much
to criticize economics or against economic conditions in our country ?
Mr. Waller. No, sir; I found in my experience — and very bitter
experience, Mr. Congressman, it was. I found the Communist Party
from top to bottom was completely phoney.
Mr. Doy^le. AVliat do you mean by completely phoney? Do you
spell it p-h-o-n-e-y ?
Mr. Waller. I don't know how you spell it but it is phoney. The
Communist Party in answer to any questions, sir, completely disrupts
both personal and family life all the way down the line; a complete
dictatorship. I would like to say now, sir, if I may, if anybody gets
into this phoney conspiracy; for God's sake, get out tomorrow.
Mr. Doyle. Did you find yourself having freedom of thought and
freedom of action in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Waller. Sir, I can answer this. I did. I had freedom of
thought; and so help me God, so long as I live in this country, I am
going to have freedom of thought; but if I followed blindly the
dictates of the party, I would never have freedom of thought or any-
thing else, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Do I understand in order to maintain your American
right of freedom of thought ; and the reason you forced your way out
of the Communist Party was because they wouldn't permit you to
have that freedom of thought for very long. Is that the truth ?
Mr. Waller. That is correct, sir. They try to completely dominate
you, sir. With God as my helper, they must never dominate thinking
in America.
Mr. Doyle. A^Hiy do you call the Communist Party a dictatorship,
sir?
Mr. Waller. It was my experience they try to dictate, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I made some notes while you were just speaking I want
to ask about briefly. You said there were only 6 or 7, I believe, trade
union members in the group which you were employed in ?
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir, the trade union group in its inception, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I made a list of 36 people you identified. I might have
missed a few ; 1, 2, or 3. I notice wherever you identify a Communist
Party member, you identify him as a person in some industry or
trade-union organization ; and that person was somewhat of a leader
in trade-union work.
Mr. Waller. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Am I in error when I say then that the Communist
Party deliberately set out in Florida to capture the members of the
trade unions and their leaders ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7313
Mr. Waller. Sir, I don't think they set out to capture the trade-
union leaders. It was my impression from the instructions received
from the Communist I'arty that if you were a hdior leader, you
should be a member of the Communist Party, too ; then you should be
forced to do 10 hours work and not 8 hours work.
Mr. Doyle. The reason I asked you the question is because I think
your sworn testimony before the committee is that by and large the
policy of the Communist Party is to try to get into the Communist
Party the leaders in the trade-union movement Avherever they could.
Mr. Waller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. To be in control of the policy of the union, itself.
Mr. Waller. That is basically correct, sir. But principally the pur-
pose down here was to recruit persons in the trade-union movement
and to recruit them in order to try to use them for an instrument, sir.
Mr. Doyle. You also said the policy was in Florida that if they
couldn't control a union then to break it.
Mr. Waller. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. If they couldn't control it, how would they break it ?
Mr. Waller, With all phoney excuses, sir. I can enumerate two
times when the Communist Party set out to destroy a union, the Local
59 Shipbuilders' Union through their instrument, Charlie Smolikotf.
They decided that they couldn't run the union so they attempted to
destroy it. I know prior to my leaving the labor union in 1948 when
Mr. Quill had taken the job and denounced the Communists in his
union, that they set out on the policy when they coiddn't control a
union to destroy it, sir.
Mr. Doyle. You realize that my questions seem to be cross-examina-
tion. We are not trying to cross-examine you. I am deliberately ask-
ing these questions to have you bring out whatever the facts may be.
Mr. Waller, I appreciate that. I have had a little bit of cross-
examination in the last few days.
Mr. Doyle. I am not using any form of question to be critical.
Mr. Waller. I'm here to give information to the best of my knowl-
edge and belief, sir.
Mr. Doyle. You mentioned this Charles Smolikoff is the only Com-
munist who discussed with you or with whom you discussed the sub-
ject of force and violence if need be to overthrow our constitutional
form of government.
Mr. Waller, I believe, Mr, Congressman, I said he was the only
one in the trade-union movement that used that, I have discussed it
with other people who are top Communist leaders
Mr, Doyle, That is what I want to clarify for my own record and
for the record of the committee. You say he was the only leader in
the trade-union movement who discussed that ; and he was identified as
a Communist Party leader and the one who discussed that ?
Mr. Waller, That is correct, sir.
Mr, Doyle, Who else in the Communist Party who was not a leader
in the trade-union movement did you discuss the subject of using force
and violence if need be to forcibly overthrow our constitutional form
of government?
Mr, Waller, I didn't discuss it with them. They led the dis-
cussion. Homer Chase, George Nelson, and Nat Ross,'leaders in the
55634— 55— pt. 1 3
7314 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Coiniuunist Party; and I believe they advocated the overthrow of
the Government, sir. .- j
Mr. Doyle. This man Chase ; isn't he the same man you mentioned
asleaving the Communist Party? ^ , , . ^n ^i
Mr. Walleu. No, sir. The hist report I had, sir, Cliase was the
Communist Party organizer in Georgia. , , ■, .■
Mr. Doyle. Do I understand then, in your presence, he led a dis-
cussion on the subject of favoring force and violence for the overthrow
of our constitutional form of government? ,.,^1
Mr. Waller. That was discussed in various meetings in which they
advocated Marxism theory to overthrow by force and violence.
Mr. Doyle. Who presided at those meetings ?
Mr. Waller. At some of the meetings Chase and Nelson ; and at
some of the meeliuirs Nat Koss.
Mr. Doyle. You^can fairly accurately identify where those meet-
ings were held and also identify those present at those meetings or
any persons present at those meetings ?
Mr. Waller. I can remember, sir, in Miami at 730 West Flagler
Street the reinstitution of the Communist Party and at that time Nat
Eoss attended the meeting. I can't recall all the individual people
who were there. It was a sizable group. I do know at various times
1 heard Charlie Smolikoti' and Nelson make remarks, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Do you remember approximately when that meeting
was or the meetings were at Union Hall ?
Mr. Waller. The first meeting I recall was shortly after January
1946, sir. That is the one Nat Ross attended.
Mr. Doyle. Am I to understand that at these meetings Chase and
Nelson advocated to other Communists present the use of force and
violence ultimately to overthrow our constitutional form of govern-
ment ?
Mr. Waller. That was the general line, sir. I don't recall Chase
or Nelson being present at the original meeting in 1946 but I am
quite positive Chase was there. I don't recall definitely, sir; but I
do recall that the Marxism theory advocating the overthrow of gov-
ernment ultimately by force and violence was discussed.
Mr. Doyle. I am sorry we don't have more time to go into that
subject now because as you know this is the problem we face, the sub-
versive advocation of force and violence. It is this phase of the
Communist activity which is most treacherous.
Mr. Waller. I believe it is, sir. Like I testified previously, I think
sometimes you are shocked by communistic theories when you begin
to read a little bit about it." Find out what it is, sir. It is very
unhealthy as a situation.
Mr. Doyle. I wish to ask a question regarding this Negro subject.
We have heard much testimony that the Communist Party while
theoretically claiming to help Negroes in the South and elsewhere just
does the reverse. I want to ask you if you have knowledge on that
subject. I assume you have some knowledge because of your lengthy
service in the Communist Party. What is the fact on the Communist
Party in Florida ? Do they actually help Negroes?
Mr. Waller. Sir, I would like to testify to the fact that the Com-
munist Party in the State of Florida has never done anything to help
anybody whether they are Negroes or white. They use the angle to
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7315
exploit a person in the trade union; and tliey use it if he happens to
be a Negro. It is just exploited and that is simply all there is to it,
sir.
JNIr. Doyle. Public Law 601 was passed in the 79th session of
our Congress, just about the time you were entering the Communist
Party. This committee is challenged with the obligation and duty
of investigating. It is suggested by me that you make recommenda-
tions to this committee for additional or dift'erent legislation on
the question of subversive activities either in the Communist Party or
any other group of persons. Have you a suggestion to make to this
committee that may have to do with this question I
Mr. Waller. Sir, I don't presume to sit here in the role of an aver-
age, ordinary citizen and tell Congress what to do.
Mr. Doyle. If we didn't want it or think you were qualified to dis-
cuss these problems with your American Congressman, I wouldn't ask
it of you. We seek advice from all qualified sources.
Mr. Waller. Thank you, sir. I think in my humble opinion that
if you gentlemen would sit down in all your wisdom in Congress and
the Halls up there; if you can educate the American people and bring
liome to them — not in flamboyant fashion — but in an honest-to-God
fashion, the evils of the Comnninist Party ; and explain to them — and
they need it, I can tell you that, Mr. Congressman. I think there are
an awful lot of lost souls running around here in ^Miami right now.
I mean some people are asked into the party, sir. Maybe they don't
know what they are getting into and too, they don't know^ how to
get out. If you gentlemen will legislate the wisdom you got — I know
you can't legislate wisdom — but by means of all the power you got to
bring about to these people who have been sucked in ; I say for God's
sake, do it.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. We all know our distinguished chairman
will say so more ably than I can say it before this session is over that
we have a standing invitation to everybody in Miami or Florida who
wants to come clean to come before the committee and we will help
them to give i\\^ facts to their Congress. I understand from your
testimony that you felt in 1948 that there had been some unfairness
applied to you by Representatives of Congress who were then on the
committee. I want to ask you now frankly whether or not you have
any criticism which you now want to make or have in mind to make
as to how you have been treated by this committee at this hearing
within the past few days.
^Ir. Waller. Mr. Congressman, I will tell you I had criticism of the
connnittee in 1948. I have stated my objections to the committee. I
have tried to raise them very factuallv. I would say mv treatment bv
the committee here has been very fair and very square, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much. That is all. Mr. Chairman.
]Mr. Velde. I appreciate the very fine questions from the gentleman
from California.
Mr. Waller. He is taking advantage of this Florida air, I think.
Mr. Velde. I should say the gentleman from the land of smog.
Mr. Doyle. You can call me the gentleman from the land of smog.
I brought in my pocket a very small bottle of smog because I knew it
would help to keep down the Florida hui'ricanes.
Mr. Waller. Those are New England, sir. We don't have them
down here any more.
7316 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Velde. Seriously, Mr. Waller, not only tlie members of the
committee appreciate the fine thin^' yon have done foi- the Govern-
ment, but I wish we could have a lot more witnesses appear before
this committee and give the truth about communism as clearly and
precisely as you have given it. You ai'e excused, Mr. Waller.
Mr. KuNziCx. Mr. Carbonell.
Mr. Velde. Will you stand and be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
before the committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Carbonell. I do.
Mr. KuNziG. State your full name, please, sir.
TESTIMONY OF JOSE CARBONELL, ACCOMPANIED BY HOWARD
DIXON, HIS COUNSEL
Mr. Carbonell. Carbonell.
Mr. KuNziG. Jose?
Mr. Carbonell. That is right.
Mr. KuNziG. What is your present address?
Mr. Carbonell. 3614 Northwest 12th Terrace.
Mr. Dixon. Mr. Carbonell has a statement he would like to read to
the committee.
Mr. KuNziG. The rule on statements of witnesses is : Under rule 9
of the committee, it states that such a statement shall be filed with
the committee in advance; and that has not been done. We have
receiA^ed no statement from this witness.
Mr. Velde. Does counsel know his position?
Mr. Dixon. I am his lawyer, Mr. Chairman. I was not advised
by Mr. Carbonell that I was going to be his counsel until this morning;
and I had no knowledge of this situation before.
Mr. Velde. Do you now have a copy of the rules?
Mr. Dixon. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Velde. You understand that he has the right of counsel for
advice and that counsel may advise his client with reference to his
constitutional rights ?
Mr. Dixon. That is right, sir.
^ Mr. Velde. May we proceed. The committee will take into con-
sideration any statements made or you wish to present.
Mr. Clardy. Can he make a statement?
Mr. Velde. No; we take into consideration any written statement
made and submitted and to consider whether or not it should be filed
in the record.
Mr. Moulder. The witness can make a statement in response to a
question.
Mr. Velde. He means a written statement.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Carbonell, what is your present occupation?
Mr. Carbonell. Cabinetmaker,
Mr, KuNziG, Where were you born, sir ?
Mr. Carbonell. Cuba.
Mr. KuNziG. When did you come to this country?
Mr. Carbonell. I think it was May 1943,
Mr. KuNziG. You became a citizen" in 1943 ?
Mr. Carbonell. I think so.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7317
Mr, KuNziG. Don't you know ?
Mr. Carbonell. Yes; but it is so long I can't recall.
Mr. KuNziG. You can't recall accurately but you know you are a
naturalized citizen of the United States of America at this time?
Mr. Carbonell. Oh, yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Where were you naturalized ; in Miami, Fla. ?
Mr. Carbonell. Miami, Fla.
Mr. KuNziG. In this courthouse?
Mr. Carbonell. I believe it was the post office building ; yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. This is the post office building or it may have been
another building at that time.
Mr. Carboneij^.. Yes, sir; I don't recall very well.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you give us a brief resume of your occupational
background since you came to this country to work.
Mr. Carbonell. I worked in New York.
Mr. KuNziG. '\Yliat sort of work did you do in New York ?
Mr. Carbonell. Carpenter; cabinetmaker. I worked in a place 4
years. In 1935 when I came here I have been working or I was work-
ing in a job many years; maybe 15 — I am not sure — I worked in that
job many years.
^Ir. KuNziG. Where?
Mr. Carbonell. I have worked in another place called Armeteck
and 2 or 3 small jobs.
Mr. Clardy. You are telling us in your last statement that you
worked in different places in Miami ?
Mr. Carbonell. I have been in Miami 19 years and since then I
have been working in one place 15 years. The rest of the time I
worked in Armeteck and 2 or 3 places — maybe 2 more — I can't remem-
ber, for just a short time.
Mr. Clardy. Thank you.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Carbonell, have you ever, been a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Carbonell (witness takes out paper). I refuse to answer on
the ground that my answer may tend to incriminate me and for that
i-eason I have decided to invoke my constitutional privilege of the
lifth amendment.
]\Ir. KuNziG. Who wrote that for you ?
Mr. Carbonell. My lawyer.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Carbonell. Shall I answer this ?
Mr. KuNziG. If you wish, you am give the answer you just gave.
Just say the same answer and the connnittee will understand you are
giving the same answer.
Mr. Carbonell. Same answer.
Mr. Velde. That is not the answer to the question.
Mr. KuNziG. Instead of making the same statement about the fifth
amendment I asked him to say, "The same answer."
Mr. Clardy. The record should be a little more complete than this
same answer.
Mr. KuNziG. Say you refuse to answer on the same grounds. Mr.
Carbonell, you became a citizen, you said, around 1943. Were you a
member of the Communist Party in 1943, when you became a citizen
of the United States ?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
7318 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of the Communist Party prior to
becoming a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. KuNzio. Were you a member of the Connnunist Party when
you first came to this country ?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. KuNziG. When you filed your papers necessary to become a
citizen, did you notify your Government that you were a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Carbonell. Kef use to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you ever hear of the Florida Press Educational
League ?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer. Same ground.
Mr. Scherer. I ask the chairman to direct the witness to answer
the question whether he ever heard of the Florida Press Educational
League.
Mr. Velde. Ask the question again, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. KuNziG. I asked the witness if he ever heard of the Florida
Press Educational league and he gave the same answer.
Mr. Scherer. Direct him to answer that question.
Mr. Velde. There is no reason why it would interfere with his con-
stitutional rights in any way. Direct him to answer the question.
Mr. Dixon. At this time I w^ould like to state
Mr. Clardy. You know if you read the rules you have no right to
address the committee. I ask the chairman to remind you of the fact
that if you want to advise your client, you may.
Mr. Dixon. I was just asking to clarify
Mr. Velde. You are not in court, Mr. Counsel. Of course, you are
allowed to sit next to your client and advise him. This is a commit-
tee of Congress and naturally, we have our rules and our functions are
different. We have made the rule that counsel cannot make statements
to the committee or engage in any harangue, citing the law, or any-
thing else. But you have the right to advise the witness of his con-
stitutional rights'; and I ask you to proceed with that.
Mr. KuNZiG. I believe I asked you again to answer that question.
(At this point Mr. Carbonell conferred with Mr. Dixon.)
Mr. Carbonell. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. You have been directed to answer the question and
you have refused to answer. Now the chairman has directed you to
answer the same question.
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. KuNziG. I think the record should show the Florida Press
Educational League has been fought by State Attorney Tom Clark
as a principal of the connnunistic government ; and further that this
witness has been identified as an executive board member of the
Florida Press Educational League.
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer on the same ground.
Mr. KuNziG. Have you at any time been an executive board mem-
ber of the Florida Press Educational League ?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer on the same ground.
Mr. KuNz.G. Were you present in the courtroom this morning?
Mr. Carbonell. I am here.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you present this morning in this courtroom ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7319
Mr. Carbonell. Yes; I was.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you hear Mr. Waller testify ?
Mr. Carbonell. I did.
Mr. KuNZiG. Did you hear Mr. Waller testify that he knew you,
Mr. Carbonell, to be a member of the Communist Party when he was
a member? ^ .. , , .
Mr. Carbonell. I think I did. I am not so sure. I didn t hear too
well.
Mr. KuNziG. Was his identification of you correct ?
Mr. Carboxell. I didn't hear that too well. I was in the back seat ;
in the rear. . i zn
Mr. KuNziG. "Wlien he said he knew you were a member of the Com-
munist Party, was he right?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know Mr. Waller ?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Velde. You are directed to answer the question. There is no
way that it will incriminate you.
Mr. Carbonell. All the questions you ask me about being connected
with the Communist Party, whether I am or not. "Wliy don't you
ask me if I have a clean life? I have been living clean all my life;
and I have a very clean home too ; and I work in the same place many
years.
Mr. Velde. Are you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Carbonell. If you would stop asking those questions, I would
tell you more. If I deny it, would you stop asking questions ?
Mr. Velde. We can't make any agreement. If you will answer the
question as to whether or not you are a member of the Communist
Party at the present time, we certainly
Mr. Carbonell. I am no lawyer. I have no education like you
have.
Mr. KuNziG. You have a lawyer sitting there at your side who
can advise you as to every single question. You stated that you live
a clean life and you live in a clean home ; with your clean and decent
life, we ask you simply this question : At any time during your clean
and decent life have you been a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer on the same grounds, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. I have no further questions.
Mr. Clardy. Since I am not sure, did we understand you correctly
when you said something about the testimony of the witness, Mr.
Waller, this morning. Did you hear any of the testhnony he gave?
Mr. Carbonell. "VYlio? Mr. Waller?
Mr. Clardy. Yes.
Mr. Carbonell. I heard something.
Mr. Clardy. Did you hear your own name specifically mentioned?
Mr. Carbonell. I think I did but I was in the rear. I couldn't hear
very well.
Mr. Clardy. Did you hear any of the details given by Mr. Waller
concerning his activities with you and his attendance to various
places along with you ?
Mr. Carbonell. Let me put it this way. I didn't pay much atten-
tion to what he said. I said already I was in the back and I couldn't
hear very well.
7320 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Clardy. Let me put it this way. Did you ever attend a meet-
ing of any kind with the witness that appeared on the stand this
morning ?
Mr, Carbonell. I refuse to answer that on the same ground.
Mr. Clardy. I direct the witness to answer. I didn't ask him about
being a member. I asked him if he attended a meeting.
Mr. Carbonell. I am in fear of answering any questions that will
incriminate me. You have already hurt me and hurt my family.
Mr. Velde. It will be a lot worse if you refuse to answer the ques-
tions. I guarantee you that.
Mr. Clardy. Are you refusing to answer on the ground that it might
incriminate you ?
Mr. Carbonell. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Do you belong to the same union or local that Mr.
Waller belonged to ; or did you have any other association with him
that you know of ?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Velde. You have had two questions.
Mr. Clardy. He refused to answer both, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Carbonell. I would like to say when I came here today, I left
my boy sick with asthma. That happened before when Mr. Brauti-
gam called me. My boy is very sick and you are all responsible for
that. ^'\^iat do you think people should know? Wliy don't you
people ask me about my clean life? Why don't you go around the
neighborhood and the place where I work? Wliy don't you ask
that kind of questions ?
Mr. Clardy. If you answer the questions here, you will be back
to your boy in a short time. I have 1 or 2 more. How old are you
at the present time ?
Mr. Carbonell. About 47 years old.
Mr. Clardy. Remind me again. What year did you come to this
country.
Mr. Carbonell. 1928.
Mr. Clardy. You weren't very old then. You were a minor when
you came to this country?
Mr. Carbonell. That is right.
Mr, Clardy. Did you have any association with any of the prin-
cipals of the Communist Party in Cuba before you came here?
Mr. Carbonell. "\Ylien I came here, sir; I was very young.
Mr. Clardy. I know they start very young. Even in the nursery.
Answer my question. Were you associated with any branch of the
Communist Party when you came to this country?
Mr. Carbonell. No, sir; no connection.
Mr. Clardy. None, whatsoever?
Mr. Carbonell. No.
Mr. ScHERER. You say you were naturalized when ?
Mr. Carbonell. 1943.
Mr. Scherer. In view of this witness' testimony, I think the testi-
mony should be referred to the Department of Justice to determine
whether or not this is one of those cases where naturalization pro-
ceedings should be commenced.
Mr. Velde. I feel that the matter of a formal recommendation
should be taken up later at the executive session.
COJMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7321
Mr. Moulder. How long did you live in Cuba before you came here ?
Mr. Carbonell. All my life, sir. I mean I lived here and in Cuba.
Mr. Moulder. How old were you when you arrived from Cuba ?
Mr. Carbonell. Not 21 yet.
Mr. Moulder. Do you recall the reason why you came here ?
Mr. Carboxell. Like any other people that like to go somewhere.
Mr. Moulder. Why did you leave Cuba and come here ?
Mr. Carbonell. I live in Cuba and I like America, like many in
America go to Cuba and live,
Mr. Mouij)er. ^Yhy did you change your citizenship to American?
Mr. Carbonell. Because I like it here.
Mr. Moulder. Or was it because tliere was better employment and
better opportunities over here ?
Mr. Carbonell. I don't understand the question. I think so.
Mr. Moulder. A while ago in answering the Congressman you said
that while you were in Cuba you were not affiliated with any political
parties ?
Mr. Carbonell. No, sir.
Mr. Moulder. What political parties did they have in Cuba at that
time ?
Mr. Carbonell. I was a minor.
Mr. Moulder. How old were you when you left there and came
over here ?
Mr. Carbonell. Less than 21 years old when I left Cuba.
Mr. Moulder. That leaves a large range of years. Can't you recall
how old you were ?
Mr. Carbonell. I was not 21 years old.
Mr. Moulder. I understand that. How old were you ?
Mr. Carbonell. Twenty years old.
Mr. Mout:.der. At that time were you old enough to know about
political parties in Cuba ?
Mr. Carbonell. No, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Were you affiliated with any political party there?
Mr. Carbonell. No, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Did you attend any political party meetings at all
there?
Mr. Carbonell. No, sir.
Mr. Moulder. I am referring to your life here. Are you now
employed ?
Mr. Carbonell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Are you married ? ^
Mr. Carbonell. Yes, sir ; and I have three children.
Mr. Moulder. Have you ever been convicted of a crime here in the
United States?
Mr. Carbonell. No, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Or in Cuba ?
Mr. Carbonell. No, sir. As I said before, I had a very clean life.
I have never been arrested.
Mr. Moulder. Have you ever been guilty of any sabotage or acted
in any way disloyal to the United States to your own personal
knowledge ?
Mr. Carbonell. Not that I know of. I don't think I have done any
violence at all or anything in my life in this country or in Cuba or
any place I have been; or New York that would go against anybody.
7322 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Moulder. Would you consider in your opinion becoming a
member of the Communist Party as an act of disloyalty to the United
States?
Mr. Carbonell. That I refuse to answer on the same ground.
Mr. Moulder. You say you haven't been convicted of any violence
here?
Mr. Carbonell. Yes.
Mr. MouT^DER. And before that you said you haven't been disloyal
to the Government of the United States ?
Mr. Carbonell, Yes.
Mr. Moulder. And now you refuse to answer ?
Mr. Carbonell. I have to act that way. I am no lawyer. I am not
sure I want to say on the same grounds.
Mr. Moulder. Have you any knowledge of any other person who
as a member of the Communist Party committed any act of disloyalty
or sabotage or attended any organization meetings? Do you have
any knowledge of anything like that ?
Mr. Carbonell. I don't think I know anybody who has done this
but I will have to answer the question this way because I don't want —
the questions you are asking me I refuse to answer on the same ground.
Mr. Moulder. You said you lead a clean life and you have never
been convicted or been guilty of any violations or disloyalty to the
United States. Is that correct?
Mr. Carbonell. That is right.
Mr. Moulder. Then the next question is : Whether or not you were
ever a member of any political group comprising the Communist
Party or that ever participated in any of the meetings of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Carbonell, I already did.
Mr. Moulder. Wliat did you say ?
Mr. Carbonell. I already did refuse to answer.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Carbonell, when you filed your papers on citizen-
ship in the court to become an American citizen, you received instruc-
tions that you would have to answer certain questions; didn't you?
Mr. Carbonell. It was so long ago. I can't remember everything.
Mr. Doyle. It was in 1943. Is that so long you can't remember
anything ?
Mr. Carbonell. I am afraid not.
Mr. Doyle. I will ask you again. In preparing to become an Amer-
ican citizen, you were obligated to learn something about the Con-
stitution of the United States ; weren't you ?
Mr. Velde. I would like the record to show I am appointing a sub-
committee of Mr. Clardy, Mr. Doyle, Mr. Moulder, and myself.
Mr. Doyle. You studied about the American Government?
Mr. Carbonell. Yes,, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Do you remember those classes?
Mr. Velde. Don't shake your head. Answer "yes" or "no,"
Mr. Carbonell. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. "Wliat other classes have you attended in the United
States, in Florida, since you became an American citizen, to study
about government? What was the school?
Mr. Carbonell. That was the only school I attended.
Mr. Doyle. But it wasn't the only class, was it ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7323
Mr. Carboneix. I am afraid it was the only one.
Mr. Doyle. Now you attended some classes studying about Kussia,
didn't you — Soviet communism ? You attended some classes studying
about communism and Soviet Union, didn't you, and about the
Marxist theoiy of government? You did that, didn't you?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, I thought you would. How long since you have
attended a Communist Party meeting?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer the question on the same ground.
Mr. Doyle. How old is your boy that is sick ?
Mr. Carbonell. He is 11 — 11 years old.
Mr. Doyle. You aren't teaching him to be a Communist ?
Mr. Carbonell. We are Catholic and my daughter, she chose Bap-
tist and that is the way I practice democracy in my house. I like
my children to choose what they want, and she chose Baptist and I
am glad she did go.
Mr. Doyle. I will have to compliment you on having your children
worship God. Of course, the Communists don't do that.
J\Ir. Carbonell. I think that if you read about information of the
FBI about me, you could be more prepared, I think, before you came
to committee, and know a little more about me than the questions you
ask mo aiow, because the way I feel, you try to pose me something
tliat do harm against my home; against this country, too, and as I
said before, my honesty is very high and I compare my honesty with
anybody, including the people asking me questions today here.
Mr. Doyle. Well, of course, may I just state this, neighbor, that
we are not interested or not trying to get you to make any answer that
goes contrary to your conscience, but just before you took the stand
we heard a man under oath, testify tliat he sat in Connnunist meetings
with you and you heard him testify to the same thing in this very room.
You were right in this very room. Now you are on the stand and under
oath and you are given the opportunity to say whether or not he spoke
the truth. Instead of you stating whether or not he told the truth, you
are exercising your privilege under the American Constitution and
you are claiming immunity or you are claiming the privilege of the
fifth amendment, which your counsel has properly advised you that
you have the right to claim. I wish to say that as a member of the
bar I know very well, Mr. Carbonell, from what you have testified
to that you are in a position to help your own Government, which you
have adopted, understand more of the problem of the Communist
conspiracy to forcibly overthrow our Government, and T am very sure
when 3'ou became an American citizen in 1913, you took a solenm oath
to help your Government, to help defend it against all enemies. It is
well known that the American Connnunist policy is an enemy of the
United States Government, determined to overthrow the American
Government by force and violence if they could. You know that;
don't you ?
Mr. Carbonell. As I said before, that I have never made any
violent act against anyone.
Mr. Doyle. But you know that the American Communist Party is
dedicated to the proposition of forcibly overthrowing the United
States Government, if it can; don't you? You know that is true;
don't you ?
Mr. Carbonell. I am not so clear.
7324 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. UoTLE. You know my statement is true; don't you?
JVir. Carboneli., I am not very clear about wliat you said now. I
want you to forgive me, to pardon me, because my English is not as
well as yours, and something that I don't nnderstand, doesn't mean
that I try to
Mr. Doyle. I realize that. I compliment you on your English.
You do very well. I think you understand very well, too. I com-
pliment you on both. Now I wish to ask my question again: You
know, don't you, that the Communist Party in the United States, and
especially in Florida, is part of a conspiracy against the Government
of the United States; don't you?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer that question, sir. My knowl-
edge doesn't go that far.
Mr. Doyle. "\'\nuit books, if any, have you read about the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer the question on the same ground.
Mr. Doyle. Have you read any books al)out the Comnumist Party?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer that question on the same ground.
Mr. Velde. I think he should be required to answer that question,
because certainly every intelligent person has read books about the
Communist Party and there is no reason why that should incriminate
you in any way, and 3^ou are directed to answer the question of the
gentleman from California.
Mr. Carbonell. I don't try to make it hard on you, but I have a
home and three children and I am afraid. I fear to answer any ques-
tion that will incriminate. I am not sure what 1 am going to say.
I have a wife and three children.
Mr. Velde. Under my direction for you to answer the question of
Mr. Doyle, you are now^ pleading the fifth amendment, using the priv-
ilege of the fifth amenment — refusing to answer?
Mr. Carbonell. I don't understand that.
Mr. Velde. You again refuse to answer the question of the gentle-
man from California ; is that right ?
Mr. Carbonell. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. One question more, Mr. Chairman. I understood, a
few minutes ago, you to say that the FBI knew all about you ; is that
correct ?
Mr. Carbonell. I think so, because I have been called by phone b}^
the FBI.
Mr. Doyle. And did you tell the FBI whether or not vow had been
or were a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr, Carbonell. I didn't talk to them those questions, sir.
Mr. Doyle. They don't Imow all about you, do they, if you didn't
discuss that subject?
Mr. Carbonell. The only thing they knew about me is that I am
a very honest man.
Mr. KuNziG. I feel sure they know a bit more.
Mr. Doyle. That is all.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know Eaul Vidal?
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer the question on the same ground.
Mr. KuNziG. Isn't it a fact in addition to the clean life you have
been discussing, you actually recruited Raul Vidal int-o the Commu-
nist Party?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7325
Mr. Carbonell. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds.
Mr. Velde. The witness is excused. The committee will be in re-
cess for 10 minutes.
Mr. DixoN. Does that mean he is excused from further sessions?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
(Thereupon a recess was taken for 10 minutes.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order. Miss Keporter, let the
record show that INIr. Scherer has returned and the full quorum is
now present. Proceed, Counsel. Call the next witness.
Mr. KuNziCx. Mr. Samuel Hirsch.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this com-
mittee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. HmscH. I do.
Mr. KuNziG. AVould you give your full name?
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL HIRSCH
Mr. KuNziG. Spell that.
Mr. PIiRSCH. H-i-r-s-c-h.
Mr. KuNziG. What is your present address ?
Mr. Hirsch. 4535 Royal Palm Avenue, Miami Beach.
Mr. KuNziG. I note you are not accomj)anied by counsel. Do you
desire to testify without counsel?
Mr. Hirsch. Mr. Carr is my lawyer. He was over in Judge — I be-
lieve it was ^Vliitehurst's chambers. I don't know if he is available
yet or if his case is through. He is presenting a case.
Mr. KuNziG. Of course, no one has come to us in any way, no lawyer
has come to me as has happened many times, and stated that he has
to be in another courtroom. A man has a right to have counsel, but
this is the first time we heard counsel is not present.
Mr. Velde. Do I understand that your counsel is presently engaged
in another trial ?
Mr. Hirsch. I believe so ; yes, sir.
Mr. Carr. I have been engaged in another trial, but it is adjourned
until tomorrow.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you come in, then, sir? We just started. Will
you state your name and address for the record ?
Mr, Carr. Henry R. Carr, 1006 Biscayne Building, Miami, Fla.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Hirsch, would you give the committee a brief
resume of vour educational background?
Mr. Hirsch. Yes, sir. I will be glad to. I entered the University
of North Carolina in the fall of 1930. I was given a scholarship by
a group of businessmen in my home tow^n of Trenton, N. J., to attend
this school. I was unable to attend otherwise, and I attended there
for 2 years, 1936 through 1938. In 1938 I had no more money left
and no funds available to me.
I went to the University of North Carolina in order to study dra-
matics, which was my field. I had a teacher at the high school "that I
attended at Trenton, N. J., who felt that I had talent in this par-
ticular field, because I had worked with him as a high-school student
and gone back for a year of postgraduate work. I had shown some
promise as an actor and some promise as a writer in the theater, and
he felt that I should go on, and he was the one who selected the Uni-
7326 CORiMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
versity of North Carolina as being a place where Professor Kotch has
tlie Carolina Playmakers and encouraged a great amount of activity.
While at the university, I engaged in theater exclusively. That is
Avhy I went to school. 1 engaged in theater at the cost of my educa-
tional career at the time. I flunked several courses, but I was in every
play that was presented. That is why I came to school, and the edu-
cational part was secondary. I wanted to be an actor or work in as
many plays as I could.
At the end of my freshman year, I was asked to play several parts
in the Lost Colony, which had just been written by Paul Green.
Mr. KuNzTG. Would you give us the overall highlights of your edu-
cation? You went to school from 198G to 1938, and your funds ran
(>ut. Did you have any further education at any time, and if so, tell
us about that.
Mr. HiRscH. I left the university after 2 years and went home to
New Jersey and got a scholarship at the Neighborhood Playhouse
School of the Theater. I believe that was in 1940 and 1941, at the
Neighborhood Playhouse.
Then I entered the Army in the winter of 1942 and was in the
Army for 4 years until 194G. While in the Army, I may say that I
was approached — I was in Special Services after I finished my basic
training at Fort Knox. I was approached as a member of head-
quarters company by G-2 of the headquarters company and asked if
I would represent them. This was, I was to report on activities of
people that I came in contact with.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you do that?
Mr. HiRscii. Yes, I did. I did that for a period of a year while I
was enlisted. I entered OCS at Fort Knox and after the train-
ing there I was given a commission as second lieutenant, and while an
officer at Camp Campbell, I was approached again by G-2 and asked
to be in charge of a group of enlisted men who were also engaged in
tliis activity, which I did.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you do that?
Mr. ITiRSCH. Yes, I did and after I was — this service, after this
period, I went overseas and I was wounded — severely wounded in
France. I was hospitalized for 9 months and came back to this coun-
try and was given a retirement as a first lieutenant from the Army in
1946.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you have any other formalized education after
that period of time ?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, I did. I returned to the University of North
Carolina under my GI bill in the spring of 1946 and took my under-
graduate work. I had about 21/4 years which I completed in a year
and a half and entered graduate school in the — I think it was — the
fall of 1947, and then I had 2 years I was appointed as a graduate
assistant in the department of dramatic art at the University of North
Carolina and served for 2 years while I was taking my master's de-
gree, and left the university in the spring of 1949.
Mr. KuNziG. So you were there from roughly 1946 to 1949?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Did that end your formalized education and school-
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, it did.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7327
Mr. KuNziG. You liave given us a detailed account. Will you tell
us what your employment has been from 1949 to the present time?
Mr. HiRscH. I ^Yas offered a job in the department of drama at the
University of Miami and entered in the fall of 1949 as the assistant
professor and worked for 4 years, in the department of drama up
until a year ago — a year ago last summer, when I engaged in a pro-
fessional— I had a professional theater at the Casa Blanca Hotel dur-
ign the summer while I was not employed. There was no job avail-
able so I formed a company and had the theater at the time at the
Casa Blanca Hotel for one summer.
The venture was successful and I felt I wanted to continue in the
field of professional theater in order to further my work as a teacher.
I felt that professionally I would be a much better instructor to drama
students if I engaged in the field of professional theater rather than
the theoretical theater we were teaching and educational theater with
which I was working and teaching. I asked for a leave of absence
for a year from the university and it was granted and I resigned from
the university this past spring in order to continue a professional
theater which I am now running at the Biltmore Theater in Miami.
Mr. KuNziG. You are not now then connected with the university ?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir ; I am not.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, Mr. Hirsch, having received in evidence a de-
tailed and clear account of your education and employment, I should
like to ask you whether at any time you have been a member of the
Commimist Party?
]Mr. Hirsch. No, sir ; I have not. I may tell you this : I answered
questions before Mr. Brautigam's investigators, simple questions and
gave simple answers. I answered questions before the grand jury and
gave simple answers to the questions. I asked for — after these ques-
tions and after my appearances, I asked for an opportunity to return
to the grand jury and try to amplify apparently what I felt that I
was under a cloud, and I felt I wanted to dispel any doubts in any-
body's mind, as to my answers. This was denied me. I wasn't able
to do that. I am at present under an indictment.
Mr. KuNziG. Let me say, what happens in the State of Florida or
what the grand jury has clone is not in connection with this United
States congressional investigation, as I am sure you will realize, and
answers to our specific questions
Mr. ScHERER. I don't want to interrupt counsel, but I am interested
in what the witness is saying. He says he is under indictment. I think
we are interested in hearing about it.
Mr. Hirsch. May I continue, then ?
Mr. Velde. All right, proceed.
Mr. Hirsch. What I wanted to say was that while an undergrad-
uate at the University of North Carolina, I entered into an atmosphere
at the university where we were encouraged always to explore ideas ;
all sorts of political ideas. In fact, there was on the campus of the
University of North Carolina, a student organization called
Mr. KuNziG. I don't believe this has anything to do with what you
asked.
Mr. Hirsch. What I am trying to bring out is that the indictment
is in relation to a specific question that I answered in a specific way.
What I wanted to tell the committee was some of the circumstances
7328 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
that I wanted to bring up before the grand jury in order to explain
my position — why I answered the questions as I did.
J\Ir. Doyle. I doubt, Mr. Chairman, the absolute propriety of us
taking time of this witness to go into the question of his indictment
by the grand jury. I think we are only concerned with whether or not
this gentleman lias been engaged in subversive activity as a member
of the Communist Party.
Mr. HiRSCH. That is wliat I am trying to explain.
Mr. SciiERER. I want to know if he was indicted for anything
that deals with subversive activity. If it is foreign to that, we are
perhaps not interested.
JNIr. Moulder. The witness has testified he was under indictment
and it is not being publicized and he is endeavoring to make an ex-
planation of it and I feel he is entitled to do it.
Mr. Velde. You may proceed.
Mr. Doyle. He has testified he was not a member.
Mr. Scherer. What are you indicted for? I don't know.
Mr. HiRSCii. I was indicted on eight counts. The question that
we are discussing now is the question that I was just asked : Are you
a member of the Communist Party, and I said, "No, sir; I am not."
Mr. Scherer. You were indicted on eight counts for what — for
perjury?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, sir,
]\Ir. Scherer. In connection with answering questions as to member-
ship in the Communist Party?
Mr. HiRSCH. That's right.
Mr. Moulder. I believe he is entitled to make the explanation that
he started out to make, why you feel you were indicted or unjustly
indicted or any explanation.
Mr. Velde. Of course we often have said it is not in the jurisdiction
of this committee to question the action of any State court or any
Federal court, as far as that is concerned, and we are not specifically
interested in your indictment or your trial or anything else. Our
jurisdiction is limited. We are a committee of Congress just like
any other committee of Congress. Our duty to the House of Repre-
sentatives, to the American people, is to investigate subversive activi-
ties— subversive propaganda. I don't feel going into this indictment
any further would come within the jurisdiction of this committee, so
I will ask counsel to proceed.
j\Ir. Moulder. I will move that the witness be given the opportunity
to make whatever explanation he wants to make. His very appear-
ance here is a reflection upon him. He is trying to make an explana-
tion of the reason why he is here and why he was indicted, and I
believe he is entitled to it.
Mr. Clardy. ]\Iay I say something on the subject? The witness is
represented by counsel who, by reputation, has been represented to
us as one of the ablest in this area, and I am sure he will give him
the best advice he can, but the committee is not above giving a little
advice on its own now and then. It would seem to me, Mr. Chairman,
that that exploration of reasons for the indictment and any further
discussion by him in justification for his position might seriously
jeopardize his own position when he appears in court. That is going
to be tried in court, obviously at some time in the future. We have
nothing to do with that. We are not interested in whether you are
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7329
acquitted or found guilty, but it would seem the better part of wisdom
on your part not to engage in a lively discussion of why you think
the grand jury made the mistake. Maybe they did or didn't. It is
no concern of ours, but you may put your neck in a noose if you insist
on rambling on and saying a lot of things that may be picked up later.
So I am going to suggest, while I am interested as any lawyer would
be in what he might have to say, I don't think it is a proper matter
that should be explored here, for the protection of the witness himself,
and while I agree with my brother from Ohio that it would be interest-
ing to know about it, we couldn't decide it or go into it.
We should get on with the question of whether he is a Communist
or he isn't, and any explanation on that score I think will be received,
but we are hardly the tribunal to try whether or not you were justly
or unjustly indicted by a jury of your peers in this locality.
Mr. HiRSCii. Such was not my intention.
Mr. Clardy. That is what it would degenerate into. You are not
doing yourself very much of a service to go into it.
Mr. HiRSCH. "V\Tiat I wanted to do, I want to help the committee.
I am not an unfriendly witness. I want to explain what I did at
the University of North Carolina which seems to be the crux of the
problem.
Mr. Velde. The witness has said he wanted to explain his activities
at the University of North Carolina and if it is satisfactory with the
members, without objection I am going to ask counsel to proceed to
ask him questions relative to his work and this connection with the
Communist Party.
Mr. ScHERER. All I wanted to do was find out what the man was
indicted for and we have it out now.
Mr. Velde. We will proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Hirsch, you were asked a simple question : Have
you ever been a member of the Communist Party, and your answer
was "No" ; is that correct ?
Mr. HiRSCH. That is right.
Mr. KuNziG. You have never been, at any time, a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir. I have attended at the University of North
Carolina ; I attended a number of discussion meetings. That is what
I have been trying to say.
Mr. KuNziG. We will ask you questions about the discussions. You
will have every opportunity — —
Mr. Velde. He has a right to explain it.
Mr. KuNziG. The question, I believe, was : Have you ever been, at
any time, a member of the Communist Party, and his answer to that
was "No." That is a simple, clear answer. That should be left right
there as a simple answer. We will go into explanation later on.
Mr. Velde. The Chair will acknowledge his right to explain his
activities at the University of North Carolina.
Mr. KuNziG. May I speak with the committee just a moment?
(At this point, Mr. Kunzig conferred with the committee.)
Mr. Velde. You may proceed with your explanation.
Mr. Hirsch. What I wanted to say was at the University of North
Carolina, I was asked on a number of occasions by students whom I
knew in my classes and my dormitory, to come with them to discussion
55634— 55— pt. 1 4
7330 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
groups on Marxism. I knew at the iiiiiversity there was an organi-
zation called the Carolina Political Union, which was set up for the
students, which had the sanction of the university, which in the spring
of each year had a meeting — had about a week's series of discussions —
at which time all members of every political party were asked to come
and discuss their point of view.
I recall the first year I was there, among the speakers were Norman
Thomas and Earl Browder, head of the Communist Party and who had
run on the presidential ticket. I remember in the Tar Heel, which
was the daily newspaper, there were invitations to come to ^larxist
study groups in the student union, the place where students gathered.
I'attended a number of these discussion groups when I was able to. I
was always in the theater, acting in shows and engaged in that activ-
ity. I attended these things. I Avas never ; it was never on any steady
basis. It was on occasions, and when, under the pressure of my friends
I was asked to come along, T would go. I never considered myself a
member of the Communist Party. I never thought of this as a Com-
munist meeting or cells or bodies or groups. It was an attempt on my
part to participate in the intellectual ferment of my college days. I
was 18 or 10 years old.
Mr. Clardy. You are talking about the time you were in school and
counsel's question embraced your entire life, and you have denied any
Communist Party affiliation at any time in your life?
Mr. HiRScH. That was the only time I had any contact Avitii this
kind of ideology was while I was at the University of North Carolina.
Mr. CiiARDY.Then if you should be identified by other witnesses,
you would deny their identity was correct?
Mr. IIiRSCH. T don't know what the identification would be.
Mr. Clardy. I say if that should happen. I am making sure we
understand your position. If you should be identified as a member of
the party at some time or other by a witness or Avitnesses, subsequent
to your a])pearance on the stand, it woidd still be vour position you
had never been a member of the party; is that right?
Mr. ITiRSCH. That's right.
Mr. Doyle. INIay T ask a question ? Were you ever a member of a
study group at the TTuiversity of North Carolina which later became
known to you as a Communist front or which at the time was known
to you as a Communist front, even though it was not a Communist
Party organization?
Mr. Kirsch. As I look bafk on it now, T would say ])robably that
was a Communist-front organization.
Mr. Doyle. What group was that? The Carolina Political Asso-
ciation?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. What was the nnnu> of the group that was |n-obably a
Connnunist front?
INIr. HiRSCH, One of the groups that I referred to was the Marxist
Study Group.
Mr. Doyle. Who was the leader of the Marxist Study Group at the
University of North Carolina?
Ml-. IIiRscH. I don't recall there was any specific leader. I don't
k'uow, sir, that has been 18 years ago.
Mr. Doyle. Did you ever lead the discussion?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7331
Mr. IIiRSCH. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. At the time you were in this group, which now you
say yon look hack at as probably a C'onnnunist front, was that in
1986 and i9o8, or when you were there the second time in 1946 and
1947'^
Mr. HiRSCH. It could have been both times, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Both times — then you went to the group which now
you say probably was a Communist front when you were there in
1936 and then you were there 10 years later?
Mr. IIiRSCii. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Who was the leader in 1946, who led the discussions
of this Marxist study oroup?
Mr. HiRscii. I don t recall, sir, because my attendance at these
meetings was so infrequent. In 1946, as I told you, for a year and a
half I did 2i/2 years' work. I was always engaged in my schooling or
in the theater and my appearances were so infrequent that I honestly
don't recall who these people were.
Mr. Doyle. Infrequent — did you attend as frequently as once a
month ?
Mr. HiRscii. There might have been a period where I did attend
that frequently and for a longer period I didn't attend at all.
Mr. Doyle. Well, if you attended once a month, that would be quite
frequent; wouldn't it?
Mr. HiRscii. Well, I don't recall that it w^as that frequent, no, sir.
Mr. Doyle. What books on Marxism — or have you studied books on
ISIarxism since your retirement from the Army?
Mr. HiRscH. Well, at the University of North Carolina.
Mr. Doyle. Since leaving the university, have you studied books
on Marxism?
Mr. IIiRscii. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, Mr. Ilirsch, let's be very clear about this. Did
you ever know a Ralph Long ?
Mr. IIiRSCH. That name sounds familiar. If I saw^ him I would
probably know who he was.
Mr. KuNziG. Is Mr. Long in the courtroom? Would he stand,
please? Would you turn around and look at Mr. Ralph I^ong and see
if you ever knew that man ?
Mr. HiRscH. Yes, sir ; I did know him as a student.
Mr. KuNziG. Where?
Mr. IIiRscii. At the University of North Carolina.
Mr. KuNziG. What year was that, your first attendance or your
second attendance ?
JVIr. IIiRSCH. I honestly couldn't recall. It could have been the
second time. I don't think it was the tirst. That was 18 years ago.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you ever attend closed Communist Party meet-
ings with Ralph Long, the man whom you just recognized?
Mr. PIiRscii. I saw him at the discussion groups.
Mr. KuNziG. My question was veiy clear: Did you ever attend
closed Communist Party meetings with Ralph Long ?
Mr. HiRSCH. I don't know they were closed party meetings. I
would say "Yes," but I couldn't be sure I was ri^ht.
Mr. KuNziG. That is very confusing, Mr. Hirsch. That will be all
the pictures, please. You have said you were never a member of the
7332 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Communist Party. Only members of the Communist Party can attend
those closed Communist meetings. Therefore, my question to you
was: Did you ever attend closed Communist meetings with Ralph
Long?
Mr. HiESCH. Not to my knowledge. According to my knowledge
of these things that I attended, they were not closed Communist
meetings.
Mr. Clardt. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question ?
Mr. Velde. Proceed.
Mr. Clardy. How do you know they were not closed Communist
meetings if you were not a member of the party yourself?
Mr. HiRSCH. That is what I was trying to explain. I don't know
they were. I attended them under the assumption they were study
groups.
Mr. Clardy. You were brought to the meetings at the behest of
someone else?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Was that someone else Mr. Long ?
Mr. HiRSCH. No ; he never brought me.
Mr. Clardy. Can you name that person?
Mr. HiRSCH. No ; I don't remember.
Mr. Clardy'. The subject of communism w^as discussed?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. There isn't any doubt in your mind about that fact?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir.
Mr. CLARDY^ You want us to believe that you honestly do not
remember w^hether they were or not ?
Mr. HiRSCH. I didn't say I didn't remember. According to my
knowledge, they were represented as Communist meetings.
Mr. Clardy. What told you they were not, if anything did?
Mr. HiRSCH. They were study groups. We studied from the writ-
ings of Marx and Lenin and Stalin and all the various Communist
literature that we were presented with.
Mr. Clardy. That didn't excite your suspicion this was a Commu-
nist group ; is that what you are trying to tell us ?
Mr. HiRSCH. I lionestly — I probably knew that these were. The
rest of the students were interested in the same thing I was.
Mr. Clardy". You were interested in communism, tlien ; weren't you ?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Clardy. You Imew you were attending a Communist Party
meeting ?
Mr. HiRSCH. I don't know that I was ; no, sir.
Mr. Velde. You wouldn't say you weren't attending ?
Mr. HiRSCH. I didn't realize. I wasn't that interested. I was not
a Communist. I wasn't interested in politics. I was interested in
intellectual things and things we were discussing, but not as a positive,
professional or political person, because I didn't do anything about
it. All I did was engage in the discussions and after school was over,
when I left the University of North Carolina
Mr. ScHERER. Before we get into that, was your position different
from that of any of the other students who attended these meetings?
Mr. HiRSCH. Wiat do you mean ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7333
Mr. ScHERER. Was 3'our position any different ? Were they merely
interested in the intellectual escapades into Marxism?
Mr. HiRSCH. As far as I knew.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you know anybody who was ever a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. ScHERER. Were any of them in that group ?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Wliere did you become acquainted with members of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. PIiRSCH. "Wlien I was married, my sister-in-law at the time
was married to a professional Communist and I knew he was, and
since then he has been divorced and I have no contact with him. He
was the only person I would definitely say I know would be a Com-
munist.
Mr. SciiERER. How many were in the group at the university that
you have just described, how many students?
Mr. HiRSCH. It would vary; sometimes there would be 10 or 15,
sometimes 20.
Mr. ScHERER, Any professors identified with the group ?
Mr, HiRSCH. No.
Mr. ScHERER. "\Yhere did you meet, on the campus ?
Mr. HiRSCH. On the campus, off the campus, students' rooms,
wherever it was called,
Mr, ScHERER. You said you were interested in the discussion of
intellectual problems, and so forth, and so forth ; did you discuss any-
thing else at the meetings except Marxism and communism ?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir,
Mr. ScHERER. You didn't study fascism ?
Mr. HiRscH. No, sir ; we had that in these political discussions where
the people came down. We had that ; yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Your discussions, as I understand it then, were con-
fined to the subjects which you have mentioned ?
]\Ir, HiRSCH. Yes, sir.
Mr, KuNziG, Mr, Hirsch, you mentioned a husband of a sister-in-
law ; am I correct ?
Mr, Hirsch, Yes.
Mr. KuNziG, 'Who was a professional Communist and he was the
only person you knew to be a member of the Communist Party. Did
you know Ralph Long to be a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hirsch. No, sir ; I did not,
Mr, KuNziG, Mr, Hirsch, were you ever a member of the Graduate
Club of the Communist Party at North Carolina — University of
North Carolina ?
Mr, Hirsch, That was the same sort of discussion group.
Mr, KuNziG, Answer the question.
Mr, Hirsch. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever a member of any undergraduate Com-
munist Party group while you were an undergraduate at the univer-
sity, either in the first period or the second ?
Mr. Hirsch. No, sir ; not that I was aware of, I was not. I attended
meetings, but I did not consider myself, and I do not consider myself
now, a member of that group.
7334 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. ScHERER. It hasn't been made clear if the groups were sepa-
rate chibs that he attended at ditferent times; whether the personnel
of the clubs was ditferent. Let me ask you that. Mr. Kunzig has
mentioned a number of clubs. Did you belong to a number of clubs at
the university ?
Mr. HiRSCH. There were several groups that I attended.
Mr. ScHERER. Several difierent groups ?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes; as an undergraduate and again as a graduate.
Mr. ScHERER. The graduate was a diiferent group from the under-
graduate ?
^ Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. You belonged to several undergraduate groups. The
discussions of those groups related to Marxism, did they not^
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. SciiERER. They w^ere different groups and different organi-
zations?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Different personnel in some of the groups; was it not^
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. That is all.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman, of course, I fully appreciate any
type of intellectual study, and I am a hrm believer in free thinking
and discussion, and in this country it is a matter of apprehension if
it is endangered. It is the basic foundation of our liberty in this coun-
try. However, I would ask you. What is your opinion of the phi-
losophy of the Communists as a worldwide movement or conspiracy?
What is your attitude, whether or not you are a member of the party ?
Mr. Hirscii. Yes, sir ; I abhor it. I have had no connection whatso-
ever with any of these things. After I left as a student, I had a chance
as a father of children and an employee of a great university — I felt
all of these things which I had engaged in as a student which I found
at the time stimulating and interesting intellectually — found them to
be abhorrent to what I believed in as a good American ; as a father,
and member of the community, and as a teacher, because I felt a new
sense of responsibility toward the work I was engaged iu. I had
vounfjsters whom I was endeavorino- to teacli drama, and I was en-
deavoring to give to them the kind of activity and thought and be-
liefs that I felt as an American and veteran Avho fought for his coun-
try— and I would be willing to fight again on any occasion — I felt
all these ideas which I once found attractive and dangerous and inter-
esting because I believe any student Avho goes as a j^oungster to a uni-
versity comes in contact with new ideas which are, in a sense, against
the elders. I think we all, as youngsters, are a little bit of a radical.
We like to disagree with our elders, because they are so definite about
it, and we feel they are wrong, and we have a way to fix it ; cures and
ills of the world which, if we have an opportunity, we will do.
Since I left the university, I have had no contact whatsoever with
anything; I haven't read anything: I am not interested.
Mr. Moulder. That is the experience of every thinker in the uni-
versities, and it also exists at student bull sessions. I know nothing
about your particular case or experience, and I haven't heard any
other testimony concerning your activities, but certainly I will agree
with most of your statement.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7335
Mr. Clardy. I won't agree with that part having to do with all
college students, because 1 don't think it is true.
Mr. Moulder. He didn't say that. That is your construction of it.
Mr. CluVRdy. I am quite sure that was the construction he intended
to plant in my mind. He didn't succeed because I don't think that is
the case.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party
while you were in the Army ?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party
when you were approached by G-2 as an enlisted man to act for G-2^
Mr. HiRSCii. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party
when you were an officer of the Army and working for G-2 ?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, Mr. Hirsch, while you were at North Carolina
for the second time from 1946 to 1948, you were married ; am I correct?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. And did you have any children at that time?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes ; I had 1 child, 1 girl.
Mr. KuNziG. Born when, if you recall ?
Mr. HiRSCH. I believe it was 1946 in the summer, in June of 1946.
Mr. KuNziG. A^'as there ever any occasion in which — strike that.
Let me ask it this way : Isn't it a fact, Mr. Hirsch, that you were a
member of the Communist Party and that there was an effort made
to expel you from the Communist Party because you didn't attend
enough meetings and that you and your wife fought for your con-
tinued membership and as a result hnally succeeded and were not
expelled from the Communist Party?
Mr. Hirsch. This has bearing on what I just said.
Mr. KuxziG. Answer that question. Is that a fact or not?
Mr. Hirsch. What fact?
Mr. KuNziG. What I just said.
Mr. Hirsch. No, sir.
Mr. KuNZiG. Did you at any time make a patronizing remark in
Communist Party activities to a Negro which drew a sharp reprimand
from no less a Communist than the southern regional organizer, one
Nat Ross ?
Mr. Hirsch. No, sir.
Mr. SciiERER. Do you know that man ?
Mr. Hirsch. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know Junius Scales, who was just arrested?
Mr. Hirsch. Yes; he was a student at the University of North
Carolina when I attended.
Mr. KuNziG. Was lie a member of any Communist group ?
Mr. Hirsch. He was present at the discussion group.
Mr. KuNZiG. Was he a member of any Communist Party group
with you ? That is my question.
Mr. Hirsch. No, I don't believe he was. I recall that Junius
Scales — the reason I know it is he identified himself and made a pub-
lic statement and it was printed in the paper that he was a member
and printed in the student paper and state paper.
Mr. Doyle. Is that in 1946 or 1948 or 1<)36 to 1938?
Mr. Hirsch. I believe it was in 1946.
7336 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. KuNziG. You said a little while ago you only knew one Com-
munist, the husband of your sister-in-law. Is that another one, now ?
Mr. HiRSCH. I knew who he was. I didn't recall it until you men-
tioned his name.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know a Hans Freystadt ?
Mr. HiRSCH. I don't know him. I recall when he was at the uni-
versity he was a physics student.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know Hans Freystadt as a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Did jou know a Milton and Minna Abernethy ?
Mr. HiRSCH. Yes, they ran a book store.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know them to be members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. HiRSGH. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. You have already stated you didn't know a Nat Koss?
Mr. HiRSCH. That's right.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know a Myron Howard Rosenberg ?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know a Paul Zilsel ?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know Paul Zilsel to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. HiRSCH. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. What was the name of your sister-in-law's husband ?
Mr. HiRSCH. Emanuel Cantor.
Mr. Velde. The committee will remain in executive session for 10
minutes.
(Thereupon the hearing was recessed for 10 minutes.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order. Mr. Hirsch and Mr.
Counsel, the committee has decided to continue the testimony of Mr.
Hirsch until tomorrow morning at 10 :30.
Mr. Hirsch. May I thank the committee for your conduct in my
behalf? I wish to thank the committee for the way you have handled
me ; and anything else that I can volunteer I will be glad to do.
Mr. Velde. You will be excused.
Mr. KuNziG. I would like this witness to remain in the courtroom.
Mr. Ralph Long, please come forward.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this com-
mittee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Long. I do.
TESTIMONY OF RALPH VERNON LONG, DURHAM, N. C.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Long, will you give your full name ?
Mr. Long. My full name is Ralph Vernon Long.
Mr. KuNziG. Your present address ?
Mr. Long. I live in Durham, N. C.
Mr. Kunzig. Mr. Long, I take it that you are willing to appear
without an attorney since I see you are not accompanied by one ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. You know you have the right to have an attorney ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7337
Mr. ScHERER. Put that microphone over in front of the witness.
Mr. Long. What was the hist question, sir ?
Mr. KuNziG. I asked you whether you were willing to appear with-
out an attorney and you said "Yes." Where were you born, and
when?
Mr. Long. I was born in Fayetteville, N. C, March 1, 1924.
Mr. KuNZTG. There are many varied questions that I desire to ask
you and a great deal of information that you will be able to give the
committee and Congress, but I am going to take it out of order and
without going into the background of your education and your em-
ployment, I will just ask you at this time if you ever attended a uni-
versity ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Where?
Mr. Long. At the University of North Carolina.
Mr. KuNziG. And this was the end of the war ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir; I attended there from the summer of 1946 until
early 1951.
Mr. KuNziG. By the way, were you ever in the Armed Forces ?
Mr. Long. I was in the Army Air Force 4 years, approximately.
Mr. KuNziG. After you got out of the Army Air Force, you went
to the University of North Carolina ?
Mr. Long. That's right.
Mr. KuNziG. You stood up in this courtroom a few moments ago
when we asked the previous witness if he knew you. I wish to ask
you if you know the previous witness, Samuel Hirsch ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. I ask you to stand up and look around the courtroom
and see if you see Samuel Hirsch.
Mr. Long. Yes ; there he is with the bow tie.
Mr. KuNziG. Let the record show the witness had identified the
previous witness, Samuel Hirsch. Mr. Long, were you ever a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. I want to make it very clear I am not talking about
attending discussion groups, studying about Marx, reading interesting
books about Russia. I am talking about being a full and actual mem-
ber of the Communist Party and I want to ask you again so the record
will be clear and the answer will be absolutely clear. Were you ever
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir, absolutely.
Mr. KuNziG. From when to when ?
Mr. Ix)NG. I joined the party in 1946, the summer of 1946, not
lon^ after I joined the university, and I left the party in 1948; the
spring of 1948 I went to my last meeting.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of the party while you were at
the University of North Carolina ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, how he was a member?
Was a card issued to him or did he pay dues ; that is, briefly identify
himself as having been a member of the Communist Party during
that period.
7338 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. KuNziG. Would you tell us just — not the previous portion prior
to North Carolina — will you tell how you became a member at the
University of North Carolina and what sort of a member you were?
Do you have a card ?
Mr. Long. I was approached. I had been indoctrinated sometime
in the Army prior to my entering the University of North Carolina.
There I met a gentleman by the name of Joseph Franklin Blake whom
I found out to be a member of the party. Joe found out I read the
official west-coast paper, the People's World, the equivalent of the
Daily Worker, and he began to talk straight communism with me and
he took me to Junius Scales. He was a student in comparative litera-
ture at the time at the university.
Mr. KuNziG. Is that the Mr. Scales who was just arrested recently
in communistic activities ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir; just arrested, that's right, and I found out that
Junius was cliairman of what was known as a student club apparatus
in Chapel Hill. There were actually two clubs, but I just knew the
student club and Scales was chairman and he was the delegate to the
district committee of the Communist Party of the Carolinas, repre-
senting Chapel Hill as a delegate.
Mr. KuNziG. How did you, personally, actually become a full-fledged
member of the Communist Party? Tell us exactly what you did to
become a member.
Mr. Long. Junius asked me and I told him about my friends I had
met in the Army and I had been reading their press and I had asked
to join in the Army, but I was told to wait until I got out of the
Army.
Mr. KuNZiG. I realize this is taking the part we are going to cover
tomorrow, but you asked to join while in the Army and they told you
to wait ?
Mr. Long. While in the Army, and they explained to me the party
liad taken the part of the Communist Political Association, under Earl
Browder and, as a party member said, one of Browder's mistakes was to
sponsor a certain amount of cooperation with the Government while
this Govern]nent was allied with Soviet Russia; so, to get back to this
Communist Political Association, it did not take servicemen, as she
gave me to understand, into the party during wartime, but I was urged
to join when I got out and she told me the University of North Caro-
lina would be an excellent place to join.
Mr. KuNziG. "Wlio is she?
Mr. Long. That is a lady I met in California, Dorothy Dow.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew her to be a member ?
Mr. Long. She showed me the Communist Political Association
card. She got me to subscribe to the People's World that I just told
you about, and other pamphlets such as In Fact, and Browder's
pamphlet Der Tag, and other Marxist books and took me around
and introduced me to her friends and in general she was, as I found
out later, just bringing me along and educating me.
Mr. KuNziG. "When you got to the University of North Carolina
and out of the armed services, you wanted to get into the Communist
Party?
Mr. Long. I got out in February and it was June until I entered
the University of North Carolina and so actually I didn't decide until
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7339
May, and when I went there I wouldn't say I went looking for the
Communist Party, but I was still under the influence of their ideology
and still reading that press, and this chance accident of meeting Joseph
Franklin Blake and getting to know that he was a Communist and he
said I have known them, and he takes me to see Scales who has admitted
all over the State he was a member of the Communist Party and the
party organization, I might add, has also admitted publicly that I
was actually a member of the party. The party itself has put
pamphlets up all over town.
Mr. KuxziG. You mean since this period?
Mr. Long. Since I have testified for the Government.
Mr, KuNziG. Now, ]\Ir. Long, would you tell us then, exactly how
you became an actual member of the party at the University of North
Carolina — how you got a card and everything ?
Mr. Long. At the LTniversity of North Carolina, there were no
party cards. There originally were, I understand, but in 1946 when
I joined, there were actually no Communist cards. In other sections
of the district, such as Winston-Salem, there were, but at Chapel Hill
it was considered to be rather foolish since we all knew each other.
We were a rather tight group and actually there was some risk in
carrying a card, and so forth, so W'e actually had no party cards at
the University of North Carolina in the clubs that I became associated
with at that time.
Mr. KuNZiG. Did you pay dues?
Mr. Long. Yes; we paid dues. We attended Communist Party
meetings. Junius Scales, an admitted open Communist since 1947,
was our chairman. We discussed the works of JNIarx, Engels, Lenin.
We read the Daily Worker which we received clandestinely. That is
another one of our security measures. We didn't get that straight
through the mail. New York would send it to our district organizer
and he would come through the Chapel Hill area every week and leave
some Daily Workers, some political affairs with our chairman, Junius
Scales, and at the party meeting Scales would distribute the literature.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know Samuel Hirsch to be a member of this
Communist Party group with you at the University of North
Carolina?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Is there any doubt?
Mr. Long. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Is there any question he was a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Long. The Communist Party.
Mr. Kunzig. And you knew him to be such ?
Mr. Long. Such.
Mr. SciiERER. To clear up that question of party cards, I am mak-
ing an observation. As I recall there has been abundant testimony be-
fore this committee that numbers of educational instructors, particu-
larly with the professional groups ; they didn't issue cards, so it is not
unusual that you didn't issue cards at Chapel Hill.
Mr. Velde. The gentleman is right. We have had an abundance of
testimony concerning the use of cards by Communists themselves. In
some cases they did or didn't, but I believe as late as 1948, however, the
headquarters of the Communist Party did issue instructions to local
groups to carry cards or not to carry them.
7340 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. ScHERER. They actually discontinued the issuance of Com-
munist Party cards for all groups in 1948 as a security measure for
the party and they started to stop issuing cards to various groups as
early as 1944, as I remember.
Mr. LoxG. May I say something^ I would like to say that each
year Ave would register officially. We had an official form of registra-
tion in which you make out a card, all the party members, and this
card you don't put your name. You put everything else — what mass
organization or trade union, your age and weight and I don't know
where it goes; whether it is the national review commission of the
|)arty or where, but I know that around December and late in the year,
one of the jobs would be to go out and register all the comrades, but as
for the comrade carrying that card on himself, the only purpose as
we saw it, was identification and in a tight little group like Chapel
Hill and Duke, we saw no need. At least that is the reason I was given.
Mr. Moulder. Probably counsel intends to pursue this line of ques-
tion, but with reference to Mr. Hirsch, you identify him that he was
without doubt an active Communist Party member at that time that
you have referred to in your testimony ?
Mr. Long. Without doubt.
Mr. Moulder. Will you go into a little more detail as to the activities
in which he participated in the Communist Party meetings and to
what extent he did participate that causes you to reach the conclusion
and opinion that unquestionably he was a member of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Long. Well, I first met Sam in the home of Junius Scales at a
Communist Party meeting.
Mr, ScHERER. That is a closed meeting ?
Mr. Long. Absolutely.
Mr. KuNziG. No one but members?
Mr. Long. Absolutely. We had other meetings when we discussed
front organization, but it was executive meetings which are quite dis-
tinct from Communist Party meetings.
Mr. Moulder. May I pursue my question in connection with that?
What notice or procedure would be used for calling such a party
meeting ?
Mr. Long. Well, for one thing we were in constant contact with the
national organization of the Communist Party. Our district or-
ganizer, Sam Hall and later Gene Moss and later, Bernie Friedman,
and in the case of Hall, he published the fact. He called himself the
chairman of the (^onnnunist Party and all of the State papers ran full
page ads.
Mr. Moulder. In response to Mr. Scherer's question, 3^011 said a
closed party meeting. 1 fow would you be notified to attend that party
meeting as such?
Mr. Long. At our party meetings we would decide when we were
going to have the next meeting and we had an executive meeting to
discuss the agenda.
Mr. Moulder. Did Mr. Hirsch participate in any of the executive
meetings ?
Mr. Long. Mr. Hirsch has led educationals. We would have an
integral part of our meetings which Avould be always a small discus-
sion of education from time to time, and we would decide that topic
at the executive, and who would lead it, and notify that comrade.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7341
Mr. Moulder. Do you know of your oavii personal knowledge
w^hether Mr. Hirsch paid Communist Party dues'^
Mr. Long. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. Did you see him pay the money ?
Mr. Long. At the party meetings we all paid the dues regularly,
and you paid according to what your salary was. As students, we
paid the minimum of 10 cents.
Mr. Moui.DER. To whom?
Mr. Long. To the financial secretary, who was Vera Laycock
Scales.
Mr. Moulder. You say, as I understand it, Mr. Hirsch paid the
dues which you yourself were paying, and you considered him to be a
Communist Party member and paying dues?
Mr. Long. I liave never heard of anything in the meetings as a
delinquent account with the financial secretary. It was understood
all the comrades pay the dues, and most of them would subscribe
extra money.
Mr. Mour.DER. How many people would attend at the usual
meetings ?
Mr. Long. Well, it varied. When I first went in, it was during the
summer session, during June of 1946, and quite a few of the com-
rades were home, so I think about 8 or 10 or 12. I can just about tell
you who was there when I joined.
Mr. MouT.DER. Just approximately.
Mr. Long. Eight or 10 or 12, but during the period I suppose there
must have been 60 or 70 during the 3-year period.
Mr. Moulder. And that is when the dues were paid, at the
meetings ?
Mr. Long. That's right.
Mr. Moulder. And you then had an opportunity to observe Mr.
Hirsch as he participated in the payment of the dues ?
Mr. Long. Yes ; at a set time we would all pay our dues, and Sam
Hirsch was a regular attendant at party meetings. Sometimes he
would sit home, and watch the baby, and his wife. Rose, she would
attend when he would be home watching the baby, and they would
reverse the process, but generally they were both there.
Mr. Moulder. And they both paid their dues. You saw them
actually pay the money ?
Mr. Long. I saw the actual dues collection which was held late in
the meeting before everybody went hime. When the time came every-
body would pay dues. You can see where it would be hard to re-
member over a period of 6 years, but I am positive he paid his dues.
I saw the actual act of dues paying many times.
Mr. Moui.DER. By Mr. Hirsch ?
Mr. Long. In which Mr. Hirsch was present ; yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. At those meetings, what occurred at those meetings
when vou would meet ?
Mr. Long. We would have an educational. We would also have
what we called a business meeting which dealt with our work through
mass organization which were set up around the campus, and we would
discuss our tactics at the next executive meeting at say the Southern
Conference for Human Welfare for North Carolina. Certain com-
rades would have positions.
7342 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Moulder. At the meetings, did you ever hear Mr. Hirsch dis-
cuss a subject of the Communist activity of the Communist Party,
aside from the philosophy ?
Mr. Long. Very definitely. As a matter of fact, Mr. Hirsch re-
cruited. He recruited Kusty Kirsch who was a student which Mr.
Hirsch was connected with at that time. Each one of us was actually
at these party meetings, to try to recruit a certain liberal who was
well underway, and Sam was supposed to work on Rusty Kirsch
Goodman, because just before she left Chapel Hill, and just as she
joined the party, she married a Goodman and she gave as one of the
reasons, the fact, "I am marrying a Communist," and Sam reported
that information to us and she was actually Sam's convert into the
Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. Those meetings then were party meetings?
Mr. Long. That's right.
Mr. Moulder. You didn't consider them as study groups or philoso-
phy of different kinds of government of the different countries?
Mr. Long. Certainly not.
Mr. Moulder. At the meetings, was there any discussion of our
own form of government or was it confined solely to communism?
Mr. Long. In the Communist Party, the practical action of every
Communist is based upon a very definite theory which was developed
over a period of time by thinkers like Karl Marx, Frederick Engels,
his collaborator, and later by Lenin, the engineer of the Soviet Revolu-
tion, and by Stalin. These gentlemen write books, books which are
flawless, according to the Communist Party and it would be sacrilege
actually to deny it — to deny anything can be wrong about it, so they
have this very set theory which every Communist is constantly mas-
tering and aib the educational, that is what we are discussing and
incorporating into the theory.
Mr. Moulder. At those meetings when you were talking about
the Communist Party representative being there from New York or
some other place, Mr. Hirsch was there on those occasions?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir; and Mr. Hirsch was castigated roughly by Nat
Ross at a meeting, I remember, for making a patronizing remark —
that is what Nat considered it — to a certain Negi'o Communist who
on this occasion was sitting in. They are usually in another group,
but they were sitting at this time and he was castigated by Nat Ross,
organizational secretary of the Communist Party, and sort of the
troubleshooter throughout the South for the National Committee of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. Did Mr. Hirsdi ])articipate in active discussion of
Communist Party activities other than the philosophy and form of
government ?
Mr. Long. Yery definitely.
Mr. Moulder. Can you give us some statement or occasion when
he did discuss Communist Party affairs?
Mr. Long. We discussed it continuously. "VVlien we would go into
a mass organization, the party was out, but we knew what to do to
advance the overall program of the party, but in the meetings, we
discussed communism. Plans were adopted to advance communism,
to build the party, to sell the papers, and by recruiting people's front
organizations.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7343
Mr. IMouLDER. Then it wasn't in your opinion, an intellectual study
group of forms of government, but it was an active Comnmnist Party
meetings at all times ?
Mr. Long. Could you rephrase that ?
Mr. Moulder. When you were at the University of North Carolina,
a group of people met and it wasn't what you refer to as an intellec-
tual study group, out of curiosity of study examining forms of gov-
ernment or communism or fascism, but it was an active Communist
Party group ?
Mr. Long. That's right, Marxism and Lenin to us wasn't a subject,
an academic subject connected with our work and curriculum at the
university. To us it was a religion, actually, and it dominated our
whole way of thinking all the way through and of course we disguised
it to fool people, but among ourselves
Mr. Moulder. If one wanted to have studied it, he could have gone
to the library without getting into any active Communist Party meet-
ings; is that right?
Mr. Long. He probably wouldn't realize that Marx, Engels, and
Lenin is right and everything and everyone else is wrong.
Mr. Moulder. If one wanted to enlighten himself about com-
munism, he could go to the library and find plenty of material to study
without meeting with a group of Communists ?
Mr. Long. Absolutely, the University of North Carolina had quite
a library on Marx. I consulted it myself.
Mr. Scherer. In discussing these meetings which you had, you
many times referred to the other members of it as comrades, or called
the other members comrades. Was that a practice at these meetings?
Mr. Long. Absolutely.
Mr. Scherer. Was Hirsch present when you called each other com-
rades ?
Mr. Long. Yes ; normally we put the first name with it. It is Com-
rade Sam, not Hirsch. When you get up to Stalin, it was Comrade
Stalin, but everyone called each other comrade. I can't imagine the
Communist Party without calling them comrades.
Mr. Scherer. And you tried to hide your identity, did you not, on
the university campus, by not issuing cards ; is that right ?
Mr. Long. The reason I got was that it would help our security.
Mr. Scherer. Help the Communist Party security ?
Mr. Long. To remain unknown, except someone we would have
some reason to bring out, such as Junius Scales.
Mr. Scherer. But you did hide y?)ur identity on the campus?
Mr. Long. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. You did not do that with any other organizations at
Chapel Hill?
Mr. Long. No.
Mr. Clardy. Isn't it a fact you could not continue to attend closed
Communist Party meetings if you were very much in delinquency on
your dues ?
Mr. Long. Oh, yes; certainly. The dues were so small, actually
the idea of delinquency would be ridiculous.
Mr. Clardy. If you allowed yourself to be in delinquency, you
either got it up, or got out?
Mr, Long. Yes, and also attending meetings ; if you did not attend
meetings regularly.
7344 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Velde. Your testimony is very interesting, but we must adjourn
at this time, until 10 : 30 tomorrow morning", at which time we request
you again to be present to finish up.
The committee is adjourned until 10 : oO.
(Thereupon, at 4: 31 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 10 : 30 a. m., the next day.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
STATE OF FLORIDA— Part 1
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 1954
United States House op Kepresentatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Miami, Fla.
PUBLIC HEARING
The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to call,
at 10 : 45 a. m., in the main courtroom, Federal Building, Hon. Harold
H, Velde (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Harold H. Velde, Kit
Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, ISIorgan M. Moulder, and Clyde Doyle.
Staff members present: Eobert L. Kunzig, counsel; Thomas W.
Beale, Sr., chief clerk; Raphael I. Nixon, director of research; Earl
Fuoss, investigator ; W. Jackson Jones, investigator.
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order. Miss Reporter, let
the record show the presence of Mr. Scherer, Mr. Clardy, Mr. Moulder,
Mr. Doyle, and myself, as chainnan, the full quorum of the committee.
Counsel, proceed with the witness.
Mr. Kunzig. Mr. Ralph Long, please return to the stand.
TESTIMONY OF EALPH V. LONG— Resumed
Mr. Kunzig. Mr. Long, yesterday in your brief testimony before
we closed for the day, we took a little out of order certain experiences
in your period of time in the Communist Party. I would like now
to go back to the previous period and get the full background infor-
mation. Let me ask you again when and where you were born.
Mr. Long. I was born at Fayetteville, N. C, March 1, 1924.
Mr. Kunzig. And you are, therefore, how old today ?
Mr. Long. I am 30 years old.
Mr. Kunzig. Would you tell us a brief resume of your educational
background ?
Mr. Long. I finished Durham city high schools. Durham is ac-
tually my hometown. I moved there from Fayetteville shortly after
my birth — I was moved there. I went to the Durham city schools;
in 1942 I went into the Army ; coming back in 1946 out of the Army,
I entered the University of North Carolina and I attended there from
1946 to 1951, and I received a bachelor of arts degree in English, and
that completes my formal educational background.
Mr. Kunzig. AVlien you were in the Army, tell us if you had any
brush with communism while in the Army. Go into that in some
detail, please.
55634— 55— pt. 1 5 7345
7346 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mv. Long. Well, I was in the Army when I met my first Connnunist,
which I mentioned yesterday, a lady by the name of Mrs. Dorothy
Dow. She was working with tlie — slie was at that time working
with the post office of the United States Government and living on
Palm Avenue in Riverside, Calif. She told me quite a few things
about herself. She had once been married to a State legislator, she
told me, in the State of Idaho.
Her father was an old IWW organizer. She was brought up — the
entire family w^ere brought up as atheists, and along that line gi'adu-
ally she came to tell me she was a member of the Communist Party
and showed me her Communist Political Association card which was
the name the party went under in those days,
Mr. KuNziG. Where were you stationed ?
Mr, Long. Nearby — Ontario Air Force.
Mr. KuNziG. Where was that ?
Mr, Long, Ontario, Calif., 17 miles I believe it is, from Riverside.
Mr. KuNziG, Were you an enlisted man or an officer?
Mr. Long. I was an enlisted man.
Mr. KuNziG. Continue please.
Mr. Long. Well, she identified herself to me as a Communist and
she subscribed at that time to tlie Peoples' World, as I said yesterday,
the west coast equivalent of the Daily Worker at that time. I don't
know whether it still is or not, and she brought me to actually sub-
scribe to this and other publications such as In Fact, and Political
Affairs, and she took me to wliat she called the progressive meeting
of people out near Hollywood, at the home of one Wess River and his
wife. He is a novelist, Wess River. At his home I found out it was
to be a fund raising affair to raise money for a progressive bookshop in
the Los Angeles area somewhere.
Among the people there, I met and was introduced to — and this
lady would have me believe that these people were Communists, some
of them, and one of them she would have me believe, was the screen
writer, John Howard Lawson. At this particular fund raising social,
there was something in the form of a raffle to raise money as part of
the fund raising ceremony, and an autographed manuscript of Law-
son's screen play Counter Attack was the first prize, and that later
became a Paul INIuni movie, that manuscript. A girl that was at
UCLA that I knew as Harriet, she won the autographed manuscript.
Dalton Trumbo, another screen writer was supposed to be there, but
he didn't make it, and a Professor Davis who taught psychology at
UCLA — who had taught at UCLA — and by the way, this Dorothy
Dow had received her masters in psychology from UCLA and got to
know the Hollywood people. He was tliere and MC'd the whole aff'air.
All I knew was Professor Davis originally was from Boston and she
told me he was a Communist, and she told me some of the people are
and some of them aren't, but to impress me — really she was trying to
recruit me into the party, as I see it uoav.
Mr. Lawson is a member of the party and Dalton Trumbo was sup-
posed to be here, and River she identified to me as a Communist, but
I wasn't actually a Communist at the time, but it was true, I was on
the way up with it. I was reading the literature and listening to her.
Mr. Kunzig. It was the beginning of your interest, in other words?
Mr. Long. That is true.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7347
Mr. Glardt. And Mr. Truinbo. What was the date of this meeting?
Mr. Long. This was aronnd the time of 1945 — early 1945.
Mr. Clardy. I wasn't sure you said Trumbo and Lawson attended
or it was represented to you they would attend ?
Mr. Long. Lawson was there and before I went there, I saw the
letter which these people sent my girl friend which they said
they were going to have the social to raise the money, and Dalton
Trumbo, Lion Feuchtwanger
He is a well-known novelist. I read one of his novels at that time.
One of his works was one of the rewards for winning the raffle.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever stationed in Hawaii?
Mr. Long. Yes; I went overseas not too long after that.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you describe any brush you had with commu-
nism there?
Mr. Long. Yes; I was stationed at Hickam Field, and at nearby
Fort Kamehameha — we called it Fort Kam — nearby Fort Kam there
was an enlisted man by the name of George Davis. This lady in
southern California, Dorothy Dow, hnding out 1 had been transferred
to Hawaii, kept in contact with me and she writes me a letter telling
me that an old friend of hers whom she knows well is also in Hawaii
and she will have him look me up, and he did. She evidently sent
my address to him. Davis was from Van Nuys, Calif., and he sub-
scribed to such things as New Masses. I got the first copy of New
Masses I ever got from him and Political Atfairs, and he continued
the indoctrination, apparently, where she left oil', and I asked Davis,
I says, ''This sounds all right to me. How do you join the Communist
Party?
JNIr. KuNziG. Did Davis tell you he was a member of the Communist
Party?
jNIr. Long. Oh, yes, sure, and he didn't — told me he didn't hide the
fact,
Mr. KuNziG. Was he in the Armed Forces?
Mr. Long. Yes; he was an enlisted man.
Mr. KuNziG. What was he?
Mr. Long. In the artillery. He was originally a truck driver, a
teamster, I believe as he gave me to understand, before he went into
the service, but he told me that one of his jobs was to arrange to get
the Peoi)le's World to certain Hollywood people. rather than through
the mails.
Mr. KiTNziG. Did he have any coamection with Army information
and education ?
Mr. Long. No, Davis actually didn't, but Davis continued indoc-
trinating me and at an orientation lecture at the same time, I expressed
my views — these views which I was accumulating — very overtly — and
after the meeting, our orientation instructor, a soldier hj the name of
Nat Petashnik
Mr. KuNziG. He was the Army information and education enlisted
man in charge of giving lectures?
Mr. Long. That is it, and he was impressed by my opinions, and
he confided to me he was in the party. He had been in local 65 in
Brooklyn, CIO union in Brooklyn. I believe it was the wholesale
Mr. KuNZiG. I want to get it straight. Are you testifying that in
your own personal experience when you were stationed in Hawaii as an
7348 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
enlisted man in the Army, that an Army information — or the other
word was orientation — enlisted man, who was in charge of indoctrinat-
ing and explaining to the soldiers why we were fighting — I happen
to know this personally since I was in the office during the war — that
man told you he was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir, and he lived in a big barracks at Pearl Harbor —
a tremendous barracks with many wings, in one of which I lived. He
took me to his locker, his foot locker, and he had it loaded with all
kinds of Communist literature, and also took me to several places
he had to go to. If you want me to go into that at this time
Mr. KuNziG. This foot locker and all this Communist literature was
in an Army building?
Mr. Long. Yes, and he had a circle of friends he ran around with.
He took me down to what they call the Labor Canteen, on Richard
Street in Honolulu. It was right beside the Young Republican Club.
Mr. KuNziG. I don't want to dwell too long on this period of time —
not because of what was just mentioned — but I want to get the infor-
mation as to how you became a party member. You were first indoc-
trinated and taken to affairs in California and then the enlisted man
in the Army in Hawaii interested you further. Did you join at that
time?
Mr. Long. No, I asked Davis, "How do you join the Communist
Party ?" Again, I touched on this yesterday — he tells me, "Well, you
can't join in the service, but I urge you to get in immediately upon
getting out," and I told him I was from North Carolina, and he says,
"Around the University of North Carolina you will find some of our
people," and mentioned the Southern Conference for Human Welfare,
the first time I ever heard the organization mentioned, which was a
new organization, and he says, "You Avill find them around there."
Mr. KuNziG Did he tell you anything about the Southern Confer-
ence for Human Welfare?
Mr. Long. No ; other than the fact that it was a type of organiza-
tion around which you would find, as he put it, "our people."
He also was a good theoretician to be a former truckdriver, and
talked Marx, Engel, and a long line of thinkers.
Mr. Clardy. While he was advising you not to become a member
while you were in the service, you testified that he, despite the fact
he was in the service, was a member. Did he inform you he had been
a member before he joined the armed services ?
Mr, Long. He gave me to know — he was actually a member of the
party, but in the service I don't think that he was attending meetings
at that time. I presume — I don't know — that he suspended all of
that for the duration of the war.
Mr. Clardy. You said he liad a circle of friends he associated with.
Were those identified to you as members of the party ?
Mr. Long. It was Mr. Petashnik, the orientation instructor that I
spoke of having a circle of friends, not Davis. He kept pretty much
to himself.
Mr. Clardy. At any rate, this man, according to the information he
gave you, was a member before he came into the armed services?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. And for protective reasons was suggesting that you
not formally join until you got out?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7349
Mr. Long. That is true. As I kept pointing out yesterday — I hate
to keep repeating that phrase — he was telling me the Communist
Political Association was indulging in limited cooperation with the
United States in view of the fact that the United States was
cooperating with the Soviet Union, and for that reason the party
apparatus had changed into the CPA. It wasn't considered a party
any more. It was an association, and as one of the results of that —
what the party later called tailism — tailing the capitalists — as a
result of this, it was decided not to take servicemen. There may have
been some that were taken in.
Mr. Clardy. "V^Tien you say not to take servicemen, or not to join,
don't you actually merely mean they did not want the formal step
to be taken, but that they did want you to subscribe to their ideology
and to go along with their indoctrination program ?
Mr. Long. That is it exactly.
Mr. Clardy. Actually they wanted you to be a Communist without
having the evidence that might be found on you ?
Mr. Long. That's right and I might add, while in Hawaii, I came
in contact with what was, in my mind, the first front organization,
known as the Mobilization Organization Action Committee, One of
the leaders was Dave Livingstone, whom I was told by Petashnik
was a young, known Communist youth leader, American Youth for
Democracy, in New York, and it was ostensibly to protest and slow
down mobilization. This was after the war ended, and a meeting —
a forum — was heard.
Petashnik — and I am running around with Petashnik in a circle —
and Livingstone set up this group and they get a very wide — I have
head them discuss a wide range of speakers; we have a WAC,
we have an officer, we have this and that, to get a representative set
of speakers, which every one attended at Hickam Field, and there
were demonstrations throughout the Pacific. . This was going on in
Hawaii. Every one gets up and makes a speech for : Let's go home,
the war is over — everyone is writing their Congressman, and they
wind up with a catchall resolution. I forget the points, but some-
thing like : Demand of your Congressman, and so forth, that Ameri-
can troops be pulled out of Korea; that American troops be pulled
out of so-and-so.
To me, I wanted to go home and all the other guys wanted to go
home. The resolution was unanimous, but now I am not so sure the
Communists didn't have leaders working with the theory — were actu-
ally more interested in getting American troops out of certain spots
in the world, really, than getting the boys back home, and that to me
was what I would call the fii-st front organization that I ever met in
the party, though the party didn't call it that ; it was mass organiza-
tion. Petashnik told me we had to compromise somewhat, that we
didn't get everything we wanted done.
Mr. Clardy. Then the party was actually engaged in promoting
the interests of the Communist Party of Kussia right within the midst
of our Armed Forces ; weren't they ?
Mr. Long. I would say so ; yes.
Mr. KuNziG. I think the record should show at this time that the
Southern Conference for Human Welfare, where you were told you
would find the same type of people, that group had been cited as a
7350 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Communist front by the special committee in 1944, and cited by it as
an organization "which seeks to attract southern liberals on the basis
of its seeming interest in the problems of the South" — cited by a
congressional committee in 1947. ■
Mr, Long, you then got out of the Army. Did you receive an
honorable discharge ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. And then you went to the University of North Caro-
lina and continued your study at that point?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNZKi. So I would like to turn to North Carolina. You de-
scribed the background as to how you became interested. Tell us
again when you actually joined the Communist Party.
Mr. Long. I joined the Communist Party in the late summer of
1946.
Mr. Clardy. That was how many months after you got out of
service ?
Mr. Long. I got out in February of 194G. This was, I would say,
about August of 194G — 5 or G months, I suppose.
Mr. Clardy. You actually were, mentally, a member of the party
before you took the formal step ; weren't you ?
Mr. Long. When 1 entered the party, I think I was probably better
advanced ideologically than some of the comrades that I found in
there. I found in the party, my education — one of the tasks is to
continually develop his understanding of the works of Lenin and Marx
so that actually I think you can say that I was actually not intellectu-
ally a Communist when I went in. I don't think I was really intel-
lectually one until I started changing my mind in 1947,
In the deepest sense of the word, when I was exposed in party
schools in New York to the pure solution of the doctrine, it was
very comprehensively, but I was ahead. I hope you see what I mean.
I w^as ahead of some of them, but we had some pretty good ones there
ahead of me.
Mr. Clardy. This last step was merely confirmation of what you had
mentally decided on ?
Mr. Long. That's right ; I had decided to join the Communist Party.
Actually, I would have been in the party probably a year earlier —
not a year — 6 or 8 or 10 months earlier if the Connnunist Party would
have accepted me.
Mr. Doyle, You said you had decided to join the Communist Party.
Were you a member — a registered member — of some other political
party ? I am not asking you to name which, if you w^ere, but were you
a member of some other political party?
Mr. Long. You mean at the time I joined the party?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Long. Absolutely not.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, you had not voted ?
Mr. Long. I had never voted. I don't think I had ever voted in
my life.
Mr. Clardy. How is that?
Mr. Long. I don't think at that time in 1946—1 was 22—1 had ever
voted and I spent 4 previous years in the Arm}^, so at the time I had
never voted an election. The first election I voted in were Communist-
club elections.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7351
Mr. Doyle, You. were born an American, raised an American, wear-
ing a United States uniform, ready. to fight if you had to for our
country. What was there in tlie indoctrination of the Communist
Party that made you desirous of joining it instead of either of the other
political parties in our Nation? Why did you choose to join the
Communist Party in preference, I will' say, to the Republican or the
Democratic Party ?
Mr. Long. Well, I have, sir, a working-class background, and one
of the points that the Connnnnists play up is that they will eventually
free the world's working class from capitalistic oppression. How-
ever, they don't start olf by immediately walking up to you and saying,
"Get in here. We are going to overthrow capitalism." They find
out if you are for labor^yes ; I am, all right. A little while longer
they will say, "Yfhat do you think of nazism or fascism?" Well, I
say I think "it is bad, yoii know, and they go along with a series of
issues and it sounds pretty good, and when you couple it with the fact
that in Army orientation'pictures — motion pictures — you actually see
the Red army glorified in driving the Germans across Poland and
things like that — and I have seen them in Army movies — why, you
Avonder if communism is really so bad after all.
Mr. Doyle. Did I understand you to say that Davis told you that
the Communist Political Association was cooperating in a limited
manner with the United States ?
Mr. Long. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, Davis told you that the CPA which
was the Communist Party, was only cooperating with the United
States in a limited manner; didn't he?
Mr. Long. Well
Mr. Doyle. Isn't that what he told you?
Mr. Long. You are speaking of the United States. Davis, as all
Communists, distinguishes between the United States as such and the
United States Government, which they say is a tyrannical, oppressive
government. lie wasn't condemning the United States. He was say-
ing the way to be an American patriot is to free its working class
and have world harmony — one great Soviet state.
Mr. Doyle. What I mean— I wrote it down here. "Davis told me
the CPA was only cooperating with the United States in a limited
manner."
Mr. Long. Well, I wish you would please amend that to the United
States Government.
Mr. Doyle. But at any rate he got across to you that the CPA was
only cooperating with the United States Government in a limited
manner?
Mr. Long. That is it.
Mr. Doyle. As an ally of Russia ?
Mr. Long. That is it."
Mr. Doyle. Wasn't that sufficient notice to you as an Army man,
that you shouldn't have anything to do with the Communist Party;
that it was only cooperating in a limited manner with your Govern-
ment ?
Mr. Long. I was, at the time, 20 years old, and actually emotional-
ly— and I will admit it — had a chip on my shoulder.
Mr. Doyle. I think the chip was quite large, apparently. I think
you were charged with notice right then when this Communist told
7352 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
you they were only cooperating with the United States Government in
a limited manner — that should have been notice to you that you
shouldn't have anj^thing to do with it, and that is the way I look at it.
Mr. Clardy. Did I understand you to say that in the Army indoc-
trination coui*ses there were moving pictures glorifying the Soviet
army and the actions in Poland and other places ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
JNIr. Clardy. I am not going to take issue with Mr. Doyle, but I
think there is something tliat ought to be developed out of what the
Congresman has said.
Mr. Doyle. I think what I said speaks for itself.
Mr. Clardy. I am not quarreling with you at all, but I felt there
is something to be brought out. Was there not a studied effort by at
least some of those that were in charge of indoctrinating you fellows
in the service — a studied effort made to glorify the Soviet Union and
the part it was playing in the war against Germany?
Mr. Long. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Did that affect not only you but others in a manner
that was more or less favorable toward the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Long, Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Now it was pretty apparent outside of the indoctrina-
tion course that Russia was cooperating in a very niggardly fashion ;
she wasn't letting us land our planes in Russia. Didn't you know about
that also ?
Mr. Long. Would you repeat that?
Mr. Clardy. You knew at the time we were supposedly engaged in
a common cause, Russia was not allowing our planes to fly across and
land there before the return trip?
Mr. Long. They may have been.
Mr. Clardy. You didn't know about that ?
Mr. Long. No.
Mr. Clardy. I was wondering if you didn't know from other cir-
cumstances that Russia was doing a poor job with us. It was a one-
way street — we were supplying and she was taking and nothing given
in return and the Army was, through some mischance, trying to sell
you the idea that Russia was cooperating. Was that the impression
you got ?
Mr. Long. Yes, very definitely.
Mr. Clardy. That had the effect upon your slant toward the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Long. I think what I would call the international climate
affected me like it affected a lot of people.
Mr. Clardy. Thank you.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Long, turning now to the University of North
Carolina, would you describe to us the clubs, the Communist Party
clubs there were at the university ? Tell us exactly what they were. *
Mr. I^NG. When I first entered the university in 1946, I was taken
into what was known as the Student Club.
Mr. KuNziG. Of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Tjong. Of the Communist Party.
Mr. KuNziG. So we can be clear, this I assume, was not in any way
a club officially approved by the university as a debating society?
Mr. Long. No, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7353
Mr. KuNziG. The existence was unknown to the university officials ?
Mr. Long. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. You didn't go loudly saying this was a student club
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Long. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Continue.
Mr. Long. Shortly after entering the Student Club of the Commu-
nist Party, there was another club which was called the Workers Club.
Mr. KuNziG. What was the difference?
Mr. Long. Actually two Communist clubs; the one composed of
middle-class people associated generally with the university — stu-
dents, teachers, townspeople of the university community, and others
mostly Negro — maybe one or two whites, would be put into it, and
then usually in some educational capacity.
Mr. KuNziG. You mean the club was mostly white and the other
Negro ?
Mr. Long. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Does that suggest the Communist Party practices
segregation ?
Mr. Long. They definitely practiced it at Chapel Hill when I en-
tered the party in 1946. The distinction they would put on it was
student worker, but coincidentally, there was the white, Negro dis-
tinction also present.
These, I might add, the personnel of the workers — this group, the
Workers' Club, were people who mostly worked as say janitors around
the university. I might add they also lived, most of them, in what is
known as Carrboro. Chapel Hill and Carrboro, anyone that knows it,
one ends where the other begins. Chapel Hill is an incorporated town
that contains the university and immediate university surroundings,
residential and business districts. Carrboro seems to be a working-
class adjunct to the university village, so actually there was, generally
speaking, an area distribution — they were in two different areas, but as
I say, one town ends where the other begins.
Mr. KuNziG. What was the greatest number of Communists or mem-
bers in these Communist groups, the sum total, while you were there?
Mr. Long. Well, I would say 50 or 60 or 70 — somewhere around
there. I couldn't name them. I never counted them.
Mr. KuNziG. We will come to that. Tell us what was the purpose
and function of the Communist clubs existing on the campus of the
University of North Carolina.
Mr. Long. You are speaking of the Student Club ?
Mr. KuNziG. Yes.
Mr. Long. Having been a member, I can go into the names. I would
like to ask the committee; I have some notes here. My knowledge of
the party is divided into sort of sections and I didn't know particularly
what sections you might be interested in or whether you would be in-
terested, so to expedite it, I have taken some notes. Can I use them ?
Mr. Velde. That has been done in the past and certainly you are
given that permission. Were these notes made from your recollection 'i
Mr. Long. Yes, as a matter of fact I could probably do without the
notes. The notes would just help me probably bring to mind these
occasions.
Mr. Velde. You may use them.
7354 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. KuNziG. Use the notes.
Mr. Long. "Well, the principal aim of the Student Club of the Com-
munist Party when I entered it in 1946, was to build the Communist
Party among the young intelligentsia of the State which were develop-
ing in the States' universities, and particularly in the University of
North Carolina. That was the principal aim, to recruit students into
the party, and usually the front apparatus was a first ste}) toward
working them finally into the type of party that controlled the front
apparatus. That, I would say, was the principal aim, but there were
many others. For instance, to raise funds, we had a drive to defeat
the Mundt-Nixon bill which was a piece of legislation which the C^om-
munist Party considered repressive. I, myself, contributed $20 in the
drive, and I recall I didn't have very much money and I was a pretty
devoted devotee.
Mr. KuNziG. You will be interested to know it was largely written
by this committee before which you appear, or their predecessors.
Mr. Long. To raise funds to defend the Communist Party was an-
other very important fact, especially at Chapel Hill. In other parts
of the State, the party was poorer, but around Chapel Hill, you have
students — you have a middle-class group, and it is precisely from
such groups that it seemed to us most of the money can be raised for
these things. Then there was to circulate the Communist Party press,
to get the people reading our mimeographed pamphlets on this or that:
issue, which we would stick around under people's doors, and a long
mailing list of professors.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you prepare and mail or mimeograph any of the
things right there at the university ?
Mr. Long. The mimeograph machine was in Chapel Hill. At those
times it was in the possession of Milton and Minna Abernethy, al-
though I didn't take part in the actual mimeographing of one. We
would assign a guy to prepare a pamphlet on this or that issue, and
arrange to get it mimeographed. The machine was there, and it was
a party machine, as far as I know.
Mr. Clardy. Were all these activities that you mentioned and you
described a lot, were they so skillfully concealed that none of the
people in charge at the university knew anything of it, or was it
common knowledge these groups existed ?
Mr. Long. When I first went in, we didn't get them out immedi-
ately, but shortly after I got in, Junius Scales admitted publicly
there was a Communist Party in Chapel Hill, and that he was the
chairman, and let it go at that, and it was a party decision to bring
Scales out in the open. He wasn't just being courageous. They de-
cided they could recruit with one man in the open for them to come to,
though most of us remained under cover.
Mr. Clardy. When the existence of the group became known, or
the existence of several became known, weren't any actions taken to
get you off the campus or do something about it?
Mr. Long. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. You mean they would tolerate it, and it continued to
exist ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir; as far as I know, the university made no in-
vestigation— at least we weren't aware of it at the time, and it wasn't
made public.
COlVflVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7355
Mr. Doyle. That was back in the summer of 1946 and 1947 ? You
joined in the summer of 1946 ?
Mr. Long. In the summer of 1946, and Scales — well, I tell you some-
thing happened in late 1946, which some Communist in Winston-
Salem exposed Scales and some amount of publicity he got, he told
in testimony that some sort — that there was indeed a Communist club
at Chapel Hill and Junius Scales was the chairman, so Scales hit the
press in late 1946, and a statement answering it was made, and Nat
Eoss with the national committee was down at Scales' house and he
helped Junius prepare it, the answer to it, and Scales didn't deny
it then, so that he didn't admit it then, but later in 1947 he actually
admitted it completely and widely to the press, leaving absolutely no
doubt that he was a member of the party and there was a Chapel
Hill Communist Party, and the literature sent by the party after
Scales came out like that, I believe — I am not positive, but I believe
before Scales came out, literature would be sent out under a letter-
head, Univei-sity of North Carolina Student Section Communist
Party ; something like that. I don't recall precisely what the letter-
head was. But during late 1946 and 1947, and from the time I got out,
every one knew there was a Communist Party at Chapel Hill and
nobody kneAv who they were except Junius Scales — no outsiders knew
who the Commies were.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of any veterans organization at
that time?
Mr. Long. Yes ; of the American Veterans Committee.
Mr. KuNziG. Were many of the members whom you knew to be mem-
bers of the Communist Party, also members of the AVC?
Mr. Long. Yes, the Chapel Hill chapter of the AVC.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you give an estimate of the percentage?
Mr. Long. Over half of it. I will put it this wav : at a vote to expel
Scales from the AVC, it was defeated actually. The AVC attempted
to run Scales out of the group and the motion was defeated. Some
one in the group proposed it and it was defeated and most of the
people voted to keep Scales in — most of them Conimunists.
Mr. KuNziG. Whom you knew to be Connnunists ?
Mr. Long. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you give us the names, some of the names of
those you know to be Connnunist Party members, students or faculty
that you personally knew to be Communists ?
Mr. Long. You are talking about the AVC ?
Mr. KuNziG. Generally, of the Communist Party.
Mr. Long. At the University of North Carolina. Well, shall I
start oil with myself, Ralph V. Long and myself.
Mr. ScHERER. I assmne he is naming students only at this time?
Mr. Long. You just want students at the university?
Mr. KuNziG. I asked for both, and he can identify which is which.
You tell us whether they are students, townspeople or faculty. Give
us an identification of the people to the best of your ability.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, if the gentleman is gomg
to name students back in the year 1946 and 1947, who have not been
named as Communists before this committee before in executive ses-
sion or otherwise? I fear that some irreparable harm might be done
to some of those students unless this witness can identify whether or
7356 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
not he has knowledge of the fact that they got out of the party or
stopped functioning as members of the Communist fronts after they
left the university or during the university years.
My point is this, Mr. Chairman, I can readily understand how
students in the American universities may unwittingly become mem-
bers of the Communist front in a sincere effort to study, but I do wish,
if this witness has any knowledge of the fact that any of the students
got out of the Communist front or anything, that he so state and
state pretty positively how he knows they were members of the Com-
munist Party and when and where. I submit it is a rather hazardous
undertaking to name students back in 1946 and 1947 without knowing
what their activities may or may not have been since. I do not ap-
prove such procedure. He should give their names in executive
session.
Mr. Velde. If the gentleman from California will remember, we
have had other students named before the committee ; and I personally
feel that the witness here is making a true picture of the Communist
Party infiltration into the University of North Carolina. Certainly
he should be allowed to give information as to the organization there
of the Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. I don't question the veracity of this witness at all. I
don't question his propriety.
Mr. Velde. It appears to me it was questioned.
Mr. Doyle. The chairman is wrong in assuming that. I want the
record to speak clearly by this witness ; that he positively knows any
student who was a member of the Communist Party ; where it was he
knew he was a Communist; whether or not he knows if that student
continued in the Communist affiliation. I think we owe it to the
student under Rule 10 of our rules in which we are charged when
given the name of a person the first time of promptly notifying him
by registered mail of the fact that he has been named ; and it is my
purpose to make this record very clear. I do object to this wit-
ness naming these students in open session when they have not before
been identified. I do want to be very sure that he can positively
identify them as Communists so that our record can be very clear;
and so that we can under rule 10 of our rule book send the student
notice; and which charges us with the responsibility of notifying
them when they are named as Communists before the committee at
any time.
Mr. Scherer. I understand the limitations that Mr. Doyle suggests
apply to any witness whether he be a student or an adult. I concur
with Mr. Doyle on those limitations, and I think we have always
applied those restrictions.
Mr. Velde. We can abide by rule 10.
Mr. Clardy. We have an open invitation to any witness who cares
to get in touch with the committee to come forward ; and so far, we
have had no luck ; but we may have this time.
Mr. Moulder. Do you have any knowledge of the activities or where-
abouts of the persons you might name since you have left school ?
Mr. Long. You mean where they are right now since I got out of
the party, their whereabouts and so forth ?
Mr. Moulder, Yes. I assume that your association and knowledge
of those persons named is limited to the time you were enrolled at the
university ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7357
Mr. Long. Yes; by the large; but some of them left before I did,
and some of them were still there when I left in 1951.
Mr. Moulder. Do you have knowledge of their present whereabouts ?
Mr. Long. Yes, but I wasn't going around taking down their precise
street numbers, but I can remember where some were at certain dates
after I left the party.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Long, I understand that you are naming x^eople
you knew during the period of time you were a member of the party
during 1946 to 1948. Is that correct ?
Mr. Long. That is right.
Mr. KuNZiG. Give us the names of the persons you know to be party
members.
Mr. Long. Joseph Franklin Blake and his wife, Dorothy Straus-
berg Blake.
Mr. KuNziG. Were they students ?
Mr. Long. Joe was a student while I was there and he was a member
of the party. As I mentioned before Joseph Franklin Blake was in
the party when I got in ; and he was still in when I attended the last
meeting. Joe was from Chadbourne, N. C. He was the son of a
physician.
Mr. KuNziG. How do you know him to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Long. I attended Communist Party meetings with him.
Mr. Kunzig. Is the same true of his wife ?
Mr. Long. I attended Communist Party meetings with her. She
came down later. She was not there when I came there. In fact,
Joe and her were married later. She was from Ked Bank, N. J.;
and she and Joe got married ; and she said she was in the party up
there; and they were in the party when I got out but I don't know
whether they are today or not.
Mr. Doyle. "VVliere were the Communist Party meetings?
Mr. Long. Chapel Hill, N. C.
Mr. Doyle. During what period of time ?
Mr. Long. From 1946 to 1948 when I was in the party.
Mr. Doyle. You haven't said whether they were closed party meet-
ings.
Mr. Long. Oh, positively. No one could get in but Communists;
the ones I am talking about.
Mr. Kunzig. Continue with the next name.
Mr. Long. Dan Jackson and his wife, Betty Jackson.
Mr, Kunzig. Were they students ?
Mr. Long. Dan was a student in physics and his wife Betty grad-
uated from a school in New York City. She had a degree but she was
only a housewife at the time. Betty was working as an educational
director when I went with the party. As for workers' groups, she
liked to work with the Negro group. She was quite adept with the
theory or I got that impression. Both were expelled from the Com-
munist Party in 1947.
Mr. Kunzig. You have mentioned the student group and the work-
ers' group. Wliat type of organization would the graduates get into ?
Mr. Long. Wlien I first went into the party at Chapel Hill around
1947 and in 1948, the number, due to recruits in students coming down
and entering the university and so on, the group increased in size to
where it was quite cumbersome and the student group was divided.
7358 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
One group was the iiiidergrads and it retained the old name of stndent
group ; and the others Avere placed in what was known as the graduate
group which was something that would catch on ; and this group was
composed of some graduate students, some who were teaching, towns-
people and so forth.
Mr. KuNziG. In what group was Dr. Samuel Plirsch identified yes-
terday ?
Mr. Long. At the time of the breaking up of the student group into
the second graduate division, PTirsch went into the graduate division
in late 1947. It was in late 1947 when this division took place.
Mr. KuNziG. You made some reference yesterday
IVIr. Long. Wait. I would like to coi'rect that last — my dates —
let me see. It was the sunnner of 1947. I would like to correct
that last date on the time of the breaking up of this group.
Mr. KuNziG. We understand this is to the best of your memory at
the present time.
Mr. Moulder. You made some reference to persons you named as
being expelled from the party. Can you give the reason for getting
them out or expelled from the party and tell who the party officials
were who presided and how .this was accomplished ?
Mr. Long. That was Dan and Betty Jackson.
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
Mr. Long. I mentioned something in the organizational setup from
2 groups to 3 groups in 1947. These grou])s wei'e called together to
keep the whites together and the colored together. Some of the com-
rades decided there was some criticism here and some dissension in
the party and they decided to throw them out. This meeting was
called at Sanford Highway south of Chapel Hill at a Negro home;
and the three clubs arrived there.
Mr. Moulder. At a colored person's home ?
Mr. Long. That is right.
Mr. KuNziG. Go ahead.
Mr. Long. At this meeting — we called this the unity city con-
vention, which is an unusual thing; we got all the groups together in
the city we had of the Communist Party, We usually stay with our
own group ; and at this meeting Betty Jackson took exception to the
tactics of Junius Scales who was away on business. He wasn't at the
meeting; and she accused Scales of being secretive and not democratic
enough.
Mr. Moulder. Did you use the word "democratic" ?
Mr. Long. Yes; we call the manner in which the group is run demo-
cratic centralism; and she felt the centralism was becoming too bu-
reaucratic and she thought Scales was to blame; and she attacked him
openly ; and he was notified when he came back to Chapel Hill ; and
he told me and Joe Blake to get rid of the Jacksons. Another meet-
ing was held at the home of the Jacksons, strange to say, off Columbia
Avenue on Chapel Hill; and all the groups got together again; and
Nat Ross came cloAvn fix)m New York and Sam Hall who was directing
the organizing work out of Winston-Salem at that time. It was
pointed out that she had been a Texas Communist and that she had
also gotten in trouble with the party and as a result the party was
split down the middle on some issue; and Nat Ross made charges
against her; and Scales made charges against her and as the result
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7359
of the meeting of the three groups, it was decided to set up a group
of more impartial comrades and tell them what was to be done about
the possibility of expelling the Jacksons. Nat Ross told us that as
a member of the executive committee, he could wipe out all connec-
tions whether we liked it or not; and that struck me at the time as
not being democratic centralism; but he said he could do that. I
had gone to one party Communist school in New York for training
and I had come back when this happened; and during the interim
it was decided that I was to go back to another party school when
this committee was being set up. I went back to the party school and
when I came back, the Jacksons had been expelled.
Mr. Moulder. Did you attend both meetings to consider the ex-
pelling of the Jacksons?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNZiG. Was Mr. Hirsch present at either of the meetings?
Mr. Long. I know he was present at the last meeting. I remember
Jiis being sharply reprimanded by Eoss for a remark he had made.
Mr. Velde. At this time I shall declare a 3-minute recess.
The committee will be in order. It is obvious that the witness has
a lot of information he can give the committee. However, we have
a lot of other witnesses who can likewise give us information; and I
respectfully ask the members of the committee to allow counsel to
proceed and obtain this information the witness has without too much
interruption ; and we would like very much for Mr. Counsel to finish
with this witness by 12 : 30.
Mr. KuNziG. You were discussing whether or not Mr. Hirsch at-
tended this expulsion meeting. You said he attended the second one.
Can you go into that in detail, please ?
Mr. Velde. Will the reporter note for the record that I am ap-
])ointing a subcommittee of Mr. Scherer, Mr. Clardy, myself- and Mr.
Doyle.
Mr, KuNziG. Describe the expulsion meeting. You said already
that Mr. Hirsch attended it as a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Long. The expulsion meeting was held in the home of the
Jacksons otf Columbus Avenue.
Mr. KuNziG. Were there only party members present?
Mr. Long. Only party members. Very definitely. A party expul-
sion is a preclosed party meeting and only for the Communist com-
mittee set up to study their expulsion which efFectualizes in a day or
2 or 3.
Mr. KiTNziG. Do 5^ou know of your own personal knowledge that
Samuel Llirsch was present at the expulsion meeting?
Mr. Long. Absolutely. He was reprimanded for a remark he made
that sort of cooled the southern regional organizer, Nat Ross, who was
})resent; and what happened actually, everyone was having a good
time and having his way in a very riotous fashion; and the evening
was going on and on; so, Mr. Hirsch suggested that the working class
Negro and others of our working people would have to get up in the
morning, and he suggested that they go on and we finish up; and Nat
Ross jumped all over him and said the Communist Negro had an inter-
est here as well as the white Communist, and "I don't Avant you or
anybody else in the Communist Party to say a thing like that." It
must be ronembered that the party exploits the Negro. He has ready-
7360 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
made issues, all good material for the party; and they insist in the
party not to malce remarks of the flavor.
Mr. KuNziG. In your experience with the party, did they seriously
help the Negro?
Mr. Long. I never heard of the Communist Party helping anyone.
Theirs is not a charitable way. The way of the party is organization,
and nothing is charitable. Through the overthrow of government to
establish the communistic type of economy, he can eat. I have never
known of any charity.
Mr. KuNziG. There was reference made yesterday; and we didn't
go into it in detail, as to Samuel Hirsch's wife. Did you know her to
be a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Long. Rose was a member.
Mr. KuNziG. Rose Hirsch?
Mr. Long. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know them personally?
Mr. Long. Yes; I have been in their home on Macauley Street in
Chapel Hill.
Mr. KuNziG. You have been in their home ?
Mr. Long. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Were any of the Communist Party meetings held in
their home?
Mr. Long. No; unless it was a social meeting together, which in-
cluded Junius Scales and other Communists I can name.
Mr. Kunzig. You never attended any closed Communist Party
meetings in the home of the Hirsches?
Mr. Long. No ; they sat in at many group Communist meetings at
many houses; but they had social get-togethers at which Communists
were present.
Mr. Kunzig. Mr. Long, do you recall any incident of possible ex-
pulsion of the Hirsches themselves from the time you went into the
party ? If so, will you relate it.
Mr. Long. Oh, yes. We had a comrade come in in 1946 ; Leonard
Bernstein, from Columbia University. He entered the graduate
school. Leonard and 1 or 2 of the comrades felt that the Hirsches
* * * the way Rose and Sam w^ere set up, if one could go to the meet-
ing the other would stay home with the baby. Sometimes Rose would
come and sometimes he would come; and there were days when they
would both make the party meetings; but, for most part, one or the
other would have to sit at home with the baby. Bern-stein felt that
both should make every meeting. He was an overzealous type of com-
rade; and he suggested that they should be censured or even expelled.
Mr. Kunzig. "\Yliat did the Hirsches think about that?
Mr. Long. They resented it very strongly. Rose pointed out that
one of her relatives was an organizer and the idea of expulsion was
preposterous; and Hall came to the rescue by pointing out that the
word "expulsion" shouldn't be thrown around so lightly. So, the
whole thing was quashed and Hirsches stayed in the party so far as I
know until I got out.
Mr. Kunzig. When did you get out?
Mr. Long. In 1948.
Mr. Kunzig. Hirsch, then, knew Junius Scales?
Mr. Long. Oh, yes.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7361
Mr. KuNziG. They were friendly with him ?
Mr. Long. Yes.
Mr, KuNziG. Did you know Hans Freystadt?
Mr. Long. Yes; I was introduced to Hans Freystadt when I got
out in 1948.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew Hans Freystadt to be a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Long. Hans Freystadt admitted it to everyone; even where he
was teaching physics at the university.
Mr. Ktjnzig. He was teaching physics at the University of North
Carolina ? He was on the faculty ?
Mr. Long. Yes; and he was awarded an atomic scholarship. He
was exposed and he didn't get the scholarship, I understand.
Mr, KuNziG. Did he attend party meetings with you?
Mr. Long. He came in about the time that I was transferred down.
I actually never attended a party meeting with him ; but he was intro-
duced by another comrade when I was out of the party in 1948. I
quit the party and attended the last party meeting ; but the conirades
try to get you back in and they still invite you and send out infor-
mation ; and in 1948 they tried to get me back in the party. Finally,
they put the freeze on me in the late 1949 ; but he was speaking to me.
I was never to a party meeting with him but he was openly a member
of the party.
Mr, KuNziG. Did you know Mr. Milton and Minna Abemethy ?
Mr. Long. Well.
Mr. Kunzig. Were they members of the party ?
Mr. Long. They were members of the party. For certain reasons
Ab didn't come to the meetings anymore. However, meetings were
held at their home and they gave a regular monthly payment to help
support the party financially. Ab ran a bookstore which carried
all the communistic literature; carried Marx/Lenin, and a whole line
of international books.
Mr. Kunzig. Did you attend meetings with IMilton Abernethy ?
Mr. Long. I attended district conventions.
Mr. Kunzig. Did Hirsch attend meetings with Milton Abernethy?
Mr. Long. He did.
Milton was from Hickory. N. C. and Minna was from Brooklyn.
Mr. Kunzig. Did you ever know Maria Diez ?
Mr. Long. I know her very well.
Mr. Kunzig. Tell us about her. .
Mr. Long. She was a student in the French language from Habana,
Cuba. One of the Communists got to know her on the campus and
told us about her. He said she was a girl in the Communist Party in
Cuba or the equivalent of the Communist Party ; that she knows Marx
and Lenin and all that; and what about presenting her and bringing
her in. So she starts to attend the party meetings ; and she was in the
expulsion meetnig and took the side of the Jacksons and almost got ex-
pelled herself. She was still in the party when I left.
Mr. Kunzig. Do you know any other members of the faculty of the
University of North Carolina who are members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Long. Oh, yes.
55634— 55— pt. 1 6
7362 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. KuNziG. Will you name only those, please, wliom you know to
be definitely members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Long. John Myers who taught French and Spanish. I re-
cruited Myers. He taught me a course in French and I wound up
giving him stuff to read and he came in late in 19-1:7 when he returned
to a New York school. He also was studying while he was teaching
courses there.
Mr. KuNziG. Any others ?
Mr. Ix)NG. In the French department, Robert Lewis. I just met
Bob in late 1947. I don't know where he came from but he was teach-
ing courses in French. He was getting his doctorate in the University
of North Carolina ; and at the same time he got the doctorate in the
University of North Carolina, he joined the faculty in nearby Duke
University ; and taught French at Duke University. The last I heard
of hiui, he was teaching in a boys' school in Connecticut.
Mr. KuNziG. He is not at Duke anymore ?
Mr. Long. No. Anatole Valkov. He was teaching in the physics
department, as I recall.
Mr. KuNZiG. How" do you know he was a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Long. I attended meetings with Valkov. He came in the Chapel
Hill group after I came in. He didn't stay too long. The reason men-
tioned— Anatole was there and I am sure Hirsch knows Anatole Vol-
kov. He left the party in late 1946 or 1947, but he left under peaceful
means. He wasn't expelled. This we got from Junius Scales. The
FBI talked with Anatole and Anatole told them he was going to with-
draw from the group. This I got from Scales.
Mr, KuNziG. I think the person you have just mentioned is the
adopted stepson of [Nathan] Gregory Silvermaster who appeared
before many committees and is mentioned in the Alger Hiss situation.
Were there any other teachers or professors you knew who were
members of the Communist Party?
Mr. Long. In the English department, Eli Friedland. Eli was
a graduate student and teaching English at the University of North
Carolina, and during this time I went there he was getting his degree,
and he got his degree shortly after I left there. Then he decided to
quit worl^ing for CIU and he wound up teaching English courses.
As I recall, they refused to grant him his doctorate some time later.
Why, I don't know.
Mr. Kunzig. You knew him to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir ; he was from Brooklyn. Incidentally, I know
the wives of some of these are members of the Communist Party, too.
Mr. Kunzig. We would like you to tell us very briefly about your
being sent to the Communist Party schools; just when that was and
what they were.
Mr. Long. Well, I joined the party I said in June 1946 and about
June 1947 I was sent to this Communist Party school which was held
at Camp Beacon near Poughkeepsie, N. Y. This was a summer camp
which we understood was in the hands of friendly people to the party.
All our expenses were paid by the Communist Party ; our transporta-
tion there and back; and food was taken care of; all our recreation
facilities and a place to stay. We stayed oft' by ourselves in part of
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7363
the summer camp and we were indoctrinated in party theory. I could
give you that
Mr. KuNZiG. We can get that at a later time. Tell us if any of
the Communists you have named know this Camp Beacon?
Mr. Long. You mean the students ?
Mr. KuNa^'G. The students.
Mr. Long. At this Beacon School — it was a school confined solely
to the southern Communists by the national committee; from North
Carolina, Georgia, and Alabama ; but it was in the later school I went
to in downtown Manhattan, N. Y., that I met other fellow students
and leaders of the Communist Party.
Mr. KuNziG. Tell us first about this other school. Can you name
some southerners you knew in the camp ?
Mr. Long. Clara Plutchinson, of Roanoke, Va.
Mr. Kunzig. Was she at this school where only the Communists
were ?
Mr. Long. Yes ; she told me her husband was an organizer of some
Syrian descent and organized around Roanoke. Clarence Goforth,
from Norfolk, Va. I never did know how to spell his last name. He
was a trade unionist and a member of the party. Mary Major, from
Asheville, N. C. The last time I knew she was in Winston-Salem
distributing printed matter among the white workers at the Camel
cigarette factory. Sylvia Bernard.
Mr. Kunzig. Where is she from ? Do you recall ?
Mr. Long. She was originally from Asheville, N. C. She had
worked with United Electrical, CIO, in Winston-Salem. She dis-
cussed that and I heard other people discuss it. Grace Livingston,
from New Orleans, and connected with the Southern Conference for
Human Welfare in New Orleans. Florence Castile.
Mr. Kunzig. Where is she from ?
Mr. Long. She was originally from Westchester County, N. Y.
The reason she came to this school, she was working in Birmingham
with another Communist Party organization; the Southern Youth
Organization.
Mr. Kunzig. Will you tell us briefly how you went back to school,
then back to North Carolina, then you were sent to a second school of
the Counnunist Party.
Mr. Long. Yes ; certainly. After the expulsion meeting I was talk-
ing about in which the Hirsches and the others were present; after
this happened and the appearance by Nat Ross and the southern
regional organizer of the party. Stun Hall and Junius Scales; they
proposed tonie that I go to a second school ; and they told me it would
last 3 months while the other lasted only ?> or 4 weeks. I was told
this school was on a higher level by Sam Hall.
Mr. Kunzig. Did you attend ?
Mr. Long. Yes.
Mr. Kunzig. Plow long did it last ?
Mr. Long. Only 6 Aveeks. I had a schedule and about G weeks.
Betty Gannett came in and said the school was to be disbanded and
we were to go immediately to our districts.
Mr. Kunzig. Did you go immediately to your district?
Mr. I^()N(!. I didn't explain why we were being disbanded. There
was apparently some rumors among the students that the FBI was
going to arrest the school in one swoop.
7364 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. KuNziG "Where was the school ?
Mr. Long. In a building housing the Jefferson School of Social
Science ; but we were not actually students of Jefferson School. We
had a whole floor set off to ourselves and anyone could register at the
Jefferson School of Social Science. This was a group school. Our
tuition was paid for ; and everything was paid for by the party. I am
saying this, I didn't go to Jefferson School as you would say.
Mr. KuNziG. Even in this relationship Jefferson School has been
cited as an adjunct of the Communist Party by Attorney General
Tom Clark in 1947 ; and by the Special Committee on Un-American
Activities report for 1944.
Mr. Clardy. Did you devote your time to the philosophical aspects
of the Communist Party or to some sabotage and espionage ?
Mr. Long. No; we went through a very comprehensive study of
what is known to the party as Marxism and Leninism. We went to
study theory.
Mr. Clardy. You studied the theoretical party instead of the every-
day work of overthrowing the Government.
Mr. Long. They didn't show us how to load rifles, sir; but they
showed us the only way the communistic state could be established
was through the working class overthrowing the capitalist state.
Marx said —
Wait until the situations present themselves and you will have the key to solve
the issues.
The situation will determine the exact form to be applied.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Long, very briefly, did you have anything to do
with the communistic activities in Durham, N. C.
Mr. Long. Yes ; I organized the Durham Communist Party group.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you an officer ?
Mr. Long. I was chairman of that group.
Mr. KuNziG. T\Tien was that ?
Mr. Long. I first set up the Durham group in the summer of 1947,
Then I left for the other school and left it in other hands. Then I
came back and rejoined it. Actually, I had a funny situation. I
lived in Durham and 1 went to school in Chapel Hill 13 miles away ;
and in touching both communities I ran back and forth between the
groups.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you have anything to do with the election in 1948
in the campaign of Henry Wallace who ran on the Progressive Party
ticket at that time ?
Mr. Long. Oh, yes; I went out with petitions.
Mr. KuNziG. What was the job of the Communist Party group in
regards to the Progressive Party ?
Mr. Long. Well, I went to the convention of the Progressive Party
and saw the same group that was in the Southern Conference of
Human Welfare. All the comrades seemed to be in the new Progres-
sive Party; and I saw the State office in our own home town staffed
with the comrades and they were going out getting petitions and
mimeographing.
Mr. KuNziG. They were people you knew to be members of *he
Communist Party ?
Mr. Long. That is right.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know Mary Price?
COMMUNIST ACXrV'ITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7365
Mr. Long. I knew her well,
Mr. KuNziG. Was she a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Long. Junius Scales told her at the Southern Conference for
Human Welfare convention held in Greensboro in 1947 when I was
chairman of the Durham party group that she could contact me and
I would help her. She was head of the Southern Conference before
she was head of the Progressive Party in the State.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know her to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Long. The comrades say that she went to the Marxist and
Leninist School of Social Science in Russia ; but she has actually never
been to a party meeting I have attended. But Scales told me about
her in Durham.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you say she was educated in Russia ?
Mr. Long. That was the rumor among the comrades around Chapel
Hill and Durham.
Mr, ScHERER, Do you have any information on the recent conduct
of the woman ?
Mr. KuNziG. We will definitely check that out.
Do you know of your own personal knowledge that the Communist
Party united behind this woman in her campaign in North Carolina?
Mr Long. Oh, yes; two leading assistants were Laurent and
Marjorie Frantz.
Mr. ScHERER. Where is she today, if you know ?
Mr. Long. I don't know where Mary is. I haven't seen her since
1948. ]
Mr, DoTLE, Is that to be sufficient to identify a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr, Velde, I think he has made it very clear,
Mr, DoTLE, I want to know for the record if this identification of a
person as. a member of the Communist Party is sufficient?
Mr, Velde. Could the witness elaborate on
Mr, KuNziG. I want the record to show that the witness was identi-
fied by Elizabeth Bentley before this time,
Mr, ScHERER. Before this committee?
Mr. KuNziG. Before this committee.
Tell us how you actually got out of the Communist Party.
Mr. Long. As I said, I attended the last meeting in the spring of
1948. You just don't get out of the Communist Party. In 2 weeks
there was a notice, and I found that they kept coming around. They
even came to my house. I just quit going to the meetings, and they
still kept saying to come around. I still kept up in the front group
and instead of going to the Communist Party meetings, I was just a
comrade withdrawn from the partv over a period of time. Finally,
in 1948, 1 decided on a course of action. I went to the FBI and identi-
fied myself. I told them I had been a member of the Communist
Party, but as of now I had resigned ; and will you please make a note
of that in your records; or something to that effect. I didn't talk
about anybody else. I left some time later. I will state there were no
threats or duress on the part of the party on my turning information
over. I did this entirely on my own and I was never asked to do so
by anyone. I told the guy, "I am Ralph Tx)ng. I am a member of the
party. You have probably heard of me." He said, "I have never heard
of you before in my life."
7366 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. KuNziG. I respectfully request that this witness be kept under
subpena because he has a great deal more information to give to this
committee.
Mr. Velde. I think the members would like to ask Mr. Long some
more questions after lunch; so, at this time we adjourn and recess
until 2.
(Thereupon, at 12: 30 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m., same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 2 p. m., of the same day, the proceedings were re-
sumed, the same parties being present, except Representative Morgan
M. Moulder, who was not present. )
Mr. Velde. The hearing will be in order. Proceed.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Long, one more question I wish to ask. Would
you explain to the committee why you left the Communist Party, the
reasons for breaking?
'to
TESTIMONY OF RALPH VERNON LONG— Resumed
Mr. LoNO. Well, my reason for leaving the Communist Party was
my realization that it in fact advocated the overthrow of the United
States Government by force and violence. I learned this in its straight
form, its strongest form, at this Communist school, the second one
I attended, in New York City, in late 1947. After that, for the first
time, I came occasionally to miss a meeting, and finally I discontinued
meetings altogether. But I think it was the doctrine in its really com-
prehensiveness that woke me up and led me by steps out of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. KuNziG. I believe Mr. Clardy had certain questions.
Mr. Clardy. Yes; I do. Witness, earlier in your testimony you
said there had been some indoctrination or discussions about the policy
this Government should follow in withdrawing its troops in various
places, and you specifically mentioned Korea. Were other specific
points on the globe where we have troops mentioned in that discussion ?
Mr. Long. Indonesia and otlier areas around — China, Burma, and
others. I don't recall the areas. We were in the Pacific, and being
Pacific GI's, naturally Pacific areas, the withdrawal of troops from
Pacific areas, under what I feel to be a falsehood of "Let's just get
the soldiers home," was mainly in that area, but it was mainly a catch-
all resolution, which was unanimously passed and Lichstein, and Nat
Petashnik, and these other people that were working and setting the
thing up to begin with, and they all wore arm bands with "DAC" on
them, and quite a few of those guys were Petashnik's friends, and on
it was "DAC," which was Demobilization Action Committee, which
was the name cooked up and put on it.
Mr. Clardy. Wliat year was this ?
Mr. Long. This was the latter part of 1945.
Mr. Clardy. So that even as early as 1945, it Avas evident the Com-
munists were laying plans for the taking over of Korea and all the
other southeastern countries you have mentioned ?
Mr. Long. That, sir, is a conclusion which I draw now, but actually
I heard no such discussion as to the reason.
Mr. Clardy. I did not mean to imply that.
CORIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7367
Mr. Long. That was my conclusion.
Mr. Clardt. It is evident, in retrospect, that even in that date of
1945 they had their plans carefully laid and were using the Armed
Forces of America to help further the selling of the idea to leave
them a clcir field to do what they have done since then?
Mr, Long. Yes, sir; and through the withdrawal of our troops, it,
in effect, laid the basis for the national liberation movements which
the Communists foster in backward countries to probably be able to
move in. That would be part of it. What I say is a conclusion on my
part.
Mr. Clardy. But from a factual standpoint, you do know as early
as 1945 they were attempting to indoctrinate the troops and the folks
back home, so that we should get out then and leave that part of the
world to them ?
Mr. Long. Later in 1945. Actually, I met my first Communist in
early 1945.
Mr. Velde. I am moved to make this statement, since Churchill
has made the statement of what he planned to do to stop the Russians
in Germany, now the Russians are bellowing of bad faith, that we
did not trust them. I think it is evident we shouldn't have trusted
them.
Mr. Long. About this time the Communist Party, in 1945, about
the time I was becoming indoctrinated, was actually undergoing a
change; Browderism was being changed.
Mr. Velde. You mean the tactics were being changed to fit the
purposes of the party?
Mr. Long. I wasn't in the party. I read about Browderism.
Mr. Clardy. Browder had served his purpose of selling a bill of
goods of one kind, and the scene changed, and they kicked him out.
Mr. Long. They accused him of having deprived Marxism of its
revolutionary core.
Mr. Clardy. That era was at an end about that time?
Mr. Long. About the time I was meeting these people in 1945,
Browder was being deposed, and the CPA was turning into the CP.
Mr. Clardy. Do you suppose very many men in your outfit and
other outfits with wJiich you came into contact, really understood the
deep, hidden purposes of the Communist world in promoting these
meetings you are talking about?
Mr. Long. Absolutely not. At that time, I did not understand it.
Mr. Clardy. You can see it plainly now, can't you?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Long, in the early part of your testimony, you
told us about some rather subtle indoctrination to which you were ex-
])osed during the time you were in the Army. Do you have any knowl-
edge whether or not such indoctrination was practiced generally
throughout the Armed Forces ?
Mr. Long. You are referring to orientation, lectures, and so forth?
Mr. Clardy. That is right, that to which you referred in the early
part of your testimony. Do you have any information as to whether
or not that situation existed in other areas of the Armed Forces ?
Mr. Long. No ; I can't say that I do.
Mr. Clardy. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman, except I
do wish to say that after listening to the testimony of Long, I will have
7368 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
no hesitancy when this committee is in executive session of moving that
the testimony of Samuel Hirsch be referred to the Department of
Justice for possible perjury prosecution.
Mr, Doyle. I know, Mr. Long, you remember this morning the form
of my question, the statement criticizing you for being indoctrinated
in the Communist philosophy while you were in the uniform of a
United States soldier? You remember that?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
JVIr. Doyle. I think your testimony shows you were being indoc-
trinated in 1945, and joined the Communist Party, actually, in the
summer of 1946 ?
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. And you got out of the party in 1948 ?
Mr. Long. That is right, spring.
Mr. Doyle. Why did it take you 2i/2 years approximately to dis-
cover that the Communist Party philosophy and doctrine was actually
the use of force and violence if and when the time came ?
Mr. Long. The only thing I can say is that the learning process
varies with different people, and in most people consumes a certain
amount of time, and I began knowing a little more each day.
But it was only in 1947, I think, I brought together the loose ends
into the central philosophy of communism, and what it is and what
is inevitable under it. In fact, no words were minced at this Com-
munist school in the latter part of 1947, or the one I went to in the
summer of 1947. No one minced their words, and I would be glad to
go into it thoroughly and tell you who said what, about certain aspects
of the theory, if you are interested in that.
The Communist Party tries to Americanize their doctrine. They
have their own interpretation of American history, and other things,
so they can actually delude you into feeling patriotic, oddly enough.
It is only when you go along in the party, as I went to New York,
and dealt with hardened and seasoned Reds who had been in the party
for many years and who did not mince their words — you really go
into the theory with thorough theoreticians of the party, such as Sis-
kin and Howard Zilzel ; it is only then I feel a man can really see what
it really is. I am not giving that as my complete reason for getting
out of the party. I probably was a little, what you might call scared.
I probably was maybe scared of my future. I was scared of many
other things. I am sure in many ways I am an exploded idealist, as
the saying goes, but I don't think there is a real apology for my having
got in the party, and I wouldn't attempt to make an apology.
Mr. Doyle. I appreciate the time you have to deal with this com-
mittee this afternoon, and have stated I will have to be very brief,
briefer than I would like to be, but this morning I wrote down this,
as you spoke, and I think it is almost the exact language: "They
taught us the only way to acquire a Communist State was through
an armed" —
Mr. Long. Through an armed working class proletariat.
Mr. Doyle. You mean you were taught in the Communist Party
a time would come when it would be necessary to arm the working
people of America ?
Mr. IjOng. Proletariat was a word that Marx and the theorists used
to define the working class, as opposed to the owning class, or bour-
geois. The struggle, they maintain, goes on between the working class
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7369
and capitalists, or bourgeois. The proletariat, through necessity, will
be driven to destroy the bourgeois, to lighten the working class
Mr. Doyle. When that time came ?
Mr. Long. To organize it, and to lead it, and, finally, to smash the
bourgeois state.
Mr. Doyle. By force of arms ?
Mr. Long. The only way it can come about is through an armed
revolution on the part of your armed working class. They point out
that no state ever came into being peacefully ; Russia did not, Germany
did not.
Mr. Doyle. Wlien were you first taught that doctrine so you com-
prehended it?
Mr. Long, I would say in the second school, when I comprehended
it completely, though in the first school, Comrade Siskin was dealing
with a younger group which were not in the party quite as long, and he
wasn't quite as brutal as he and his fellow associates were who took
us in the second school.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask you this. Do you recall other students with
whom 3^ou discussed that subject and who also came to the same con-
clusion as you came to, or were you the only one in the class?
Mr. Long. Sir, at these schools, I wish you would remember they
consisted of comrades picked from different sections of the country,
brought together, and when the school was over, everyone went back
to his district. I went back to my district, and Ruth Koenig went
back to hers in Texas, and Frank Boche went back to his in Illinois,
and so forth, and I really don't know how Frank came out, whether
he is in the party or not today, or how Ruth came out, and so on.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, no American citizen, a young person
at the school with you, where you heard them teach the justification
of the use of arms and force and violence to overthrow our Govern-
ment, by the working class against the capitalist class, you have no
other knowledge of any other persons who were in those classes, who
got out of the party ?
Mr. Long. I have a list of students. I could go over that and
see. I don't recall right offhand, if I would read in the paper where so
and so has defected in Iowa, or something like that.
Mr. Doyle. The purpose of that question is to bring out the hold
the Communist Party has on these young people at the time they
get to the stage of the second school where they are taught the use of
force and arms.
Mr. ScHERER. The thing is this young man got his indoctrination
in the United States Army, and I think it is perhaps the duty of this
committee to find out who the individuals were that permitted
this indoctrination.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Our distinguished counsel asked you why you got out
of the Communist Party. You stated this comprehension Jby you
came to be such you finally woke up. In other words, it took you
two years and a half to wake up ?
Mr. Long. That is right ; to realize.
Mr. Doyle. To realize their teaching? This morning when I criti-
cized you, and I did it deliberately, of course, because to me it is most
shocking, always, when any member of the Armed Forces is so un-
patriotic as to join any conspiracy, or which he had any idea was a
7370 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
conspiracy, when he was in the uniform of the United States Army.
But may I say this in answer to my criticism of you, you said, "I prob-
ably had a chip on my shoulder."
Mr. Long. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. What chip did you have on your shoulder? As an
American boy, 20 years of age, against the Government of the United
States, that justified you, in your mind, at that age, to be willing to
be indoctrinated in a Communist conspiracy? Wliat complaint did
you have against the United States Government?
Mr. Long. My father died when I w-as 3 years old and my mother
had to bring up myself and sister. She had a hard time. I was
brought up in the depression, in the South.
Mr. Velde. We all had chips on our shoulder.
Mr. Long. My indoctrination began in the United States Army;
it by no means ended there. As I have already tried to say, I did
not consider myself an enemy of the people of the United States, and
I did not realize the Communist Party, as a matter of fact, was not
elected into office. When I was in the United States Army, though,
the gentleman was bringing it along, and I found out very quickly
after getting in the party there, that the whole thing isn't elected in
the bourgeois framework.
Mr. Doyi.E. I hope, Mr. Chairman, it might be possible to have Mr.
Long at a later date.
Mr. Velde. I certainly do too, because there is a lot of information
he has.
Mr. Doyle. My other question was this. As you know, one purpose
of this committee functioning under Public Law 601, Mr. Long, is
that we have these investigations, one purpose being to get facts and
information which would equip us to recommend to the United States
Congress legislation, either in the main, or to be incorporated in
other bills, dealing with the problems of subversive activities in the
United States.
Now that subversive activity might be in the Communist Party, or
it might be in some other group, because by no means is the Commu-
nist Party the only totalitarian group in the Nation. There are hate
groups just as subversive as the Communist Party. They are also
totalitarian.
Now, what recommendation have you, if anything, to this commit-
tee, in the field of new legislation, or revising legislation, amending
legislation, what suggestion have you to make to us that we could take
back to the United States Congress, come January, w-ith us, in this
important field of subversion ?
May I state this, Mr. Long; I am sure the other members of the
committee feel as I do — at least, I will state my own i:)Osition. I think
that you as an American citizen have the right to think as yon please,
do as you please, and be as you please, provided you do it within the
four corners of the United States Constitution.
I want to make this clear, I am not interested in people merely be-
qause they differ in opinion. It is the subversive level I am inter-
ested in. The level where people say it is all right to forcibly over-
throw our constitutional form of government. Communists, or any
others, who subvert hnv, who subvert constitutional government; that
is the level of thinking I am seeking facts about for Congress.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7371
With that in mind, what suggestion do you have to make to us in
the field of legislation ?
Mr, Long. I am very handicapped, because actually I am not fa-
miliar with available legislation. I don't know what has been done.
All I know is I read it in the paper, and I don't read it too carefully.
I got out of the Connnunist Party. I told the Government, anyway,
I could cooperate with them, and I did, but I have gone on trying to
live my life, and it is painful to me to actually read and to stiidy the
problem, because I feel that studying communism, to begin with, was
the whole problem.
Mr. Doyle, Only because time is so short, I just wish to say this :
you state you actually don't read too carefully, and I wish to urge
you to read very carefully.
I want to compliment you on finally getting the gumption and
backbone and courage to come to this committee, I criticized you this
morning, but I compliment you on finally arriving at the patriotic
level which impels you to help your Congress.
I want to urge you to use the available fund of information you
have to help young America, and all people of the Nation. I want to
urge you to place your ability on that level of the dynamic and posi-
tive, and try to make up for the damnable damage you have done as a
Communist.
Mr. Long. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Velde. May I say to you, Mr. Long, you have been cross-
examined by a very brilliant lawyer and a very tine Congressman,
Mr. Doyle of California, and as far as I am concerned, you have been
telling the absolute truth about your connections with the Commu-
nist Party. I know you have other information and the committee
regrets w^e have other witnesses to be called at this time so we can-
not hear your further testimony regarding all of the associations
you had in the Communist Party.
Let me say this to you, Mr. Long, of all the witnesses we have heard,
you have been one of the most outstanding and patriotic, and have
given more information to this committee than any other witness I
have heard.
I want to wish you the best of luck in anything you have to do in
the future.
Mr. Long. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Velde. With that, you are dismissed, with the committee's
thanks.
Mr. Kunzig. We would like to keep the witness under subpena.
Mr. Velde. You will remain under subpena, until you are contacted
by the committee.
Mr. Long. I w^ant to thank the committee for giving me a chance
to compensate in some small way for what I did,
Mr. Velde, Let the record show" Mr, Long is continued under sub-
pena until further notice.
Mr. Kunzig. Mariano Rodriguez ?
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this com-
mittee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help j^ou God?
Mr. Rodriguez. I do,
Mr. Kunzig. Mr. Rodriguez, give us your full name.
7372 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
TESTIMONY OF MARIANO RODRIGUEZ
Mr. Rodriguez. Mariano Rodriguez.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you spell that for us, please ?
Mr. Rodriguez. M-a-r-i-a-ii-o R-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z.
Mr. KuNziG. What is your present address, Mr. Rodriguez ?
Mr. Rodriguez. 2020 12th Avenue, Tampa, Fla.
Mr. KuNziG. You live in Tampa, Fla. ?
Mr. Rodriguez. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kunzig. What is your occupation tliere, sir ?
Mr. Rodriguez. Cigarmaker.
Mr. Kunzig. And where do you work as a cigarmaker?
Mr. Rodriguez. Vilazon & Co.
Mr. Kunzig. Mr. Rodriguez, I note you are here not represented.
by counsel. You know, of course, your right to have counsel. Are
you willing to testify without counsel ?
Mr. Rodriguez. I am a poor man. I am a worker, and all the
money I earn, I need it to support my family. I am married and have
got two children. Besides that, I am being under the doctor's care
for the last 2 years, due to heart trouble.
Mr. Kunzig. Are you willing to continue testifying ?
Mr. Rodriguez. I have not much to say.
Mr. Kunzig. Mr, Chairman, the situation now is that this witness,
when asked whether or not he had an attorney, states he is a poor man.
1 presume he means by that he does not have the funds for an attorney.
As you know, the United States Congress does not have funds to
furnish attorneys. That is the situation at this moment.
Mr. ScHERER. Does he say he wants an attorney ?
Mr. Kunzig. Yes, sir ; he wants an attorney.
Mr. Doyle. I believe, in view of the witness' statement, we ought
to see to it that he has counsel, and suggest to the Miami Bar Associa-
tion if they wouldn't gratuitously furnish a lawyer.
Mr. Velde. We are all lawyers, and I believe, of course, tiie bar
here is patriotic, and I ask now that the president of the bar associa-
tion here in Miami appoint some man to represent this witness, be-
fore we proceed with further questioning.
Mr. Clardy. Hadn't we first make certain he wants an attorney?
Do you feel you need an attorney, or are you willing to go forward,
without an attorney ?
Mr. Rodriguez. Well, I don't know how far I can go; how far, I
don't know. I think an attorney is always a help.
Mr. Clardy. You haven't made any attempt to get an attorney up
to now, I understand, is that correct?
Mr. Rodriguez. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Of course the precedent in other cities is that the bar
association has done a similar thing.
Mr. Velde. And I am satisfied tliey will do it here.
Mr. Doyle. In Seattle, the bar association not only furnished one
lawyer, but several, as a patriotic duty.
Mr. Velde. The witness will be excused at the present time, under
continuing subpena.
Call your next witness, please.
Mr. Kunzig. Mr. Raul Vidal.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7373
Mr. Yelde. In tlie testimony you are about to give before this
committee, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. ViDAL.. I do, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you give your full name, please, sir?
TESTIMONY OF RAUL VIDAL
Mr. ViDAL. Raul Vidal.
Mr. KuisrziG. "Wliat is your present address, Mr. Vidal ?
Mr. Vidal. 730 Southeast 5 Place, Hialeah.
Mr. KuNziG. I note you also, are not accompanied by an attorney.
Is it satisfactory with you to testify without an attorney ?
Mr. Vidal. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Vidal, where are you presently employed ?
Mr. Vidal. Pan American Airways.
Mr. KuNziG. In what capacity, sir ?
Mr. Vidal. Commissary helper.
Mr. KuNziG. What is your function? What do you do?
Mr. Vidal. We check the commissary equipment that goes to the
planes, and we supply the pillows and blankets.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you born in this country, Mr. Vidal ?
Mr. Vidal. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Where were you born ?
Mr. Vidal, Habana, Cuba.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you now a naturalized citizen ?
Mr. Vidal. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. "V\nien did vou become a naturalized citizen?
Mr. Vidal. 1938.
Mr. KuNziG. "When did you come to this country ?
Mr. Vidal. 1924.
Mr. KuNziG. And in 1938, when you became a naturalized citizen,
where did that naturalization proceeding take place ?
Mr. Vidal. Miami, Fla.
Mr. KuNziG. Could you give us a very brief background of your
education ?
Mr. Vidal. Well, I went up to the sixth grade in Cuba. I went about
3 years in night school in Miami. I also went to a school in Cincin-
nati, Ohio.
Mr. KuNziG. What school was that in Cincinnati, Ohio ?
Mr. Vidal. Automotive trade school.
Mr. KuNZiG. Now, can you give us a brief summary of your employ-
ment, where you worked ?
Mr. Vidal. I have worked in Miami as a grocery clerk, and I moved
to Cincinnati, Ohio. Over there I worked for Manischetz Mataco.
Mr. KuNziG. What function, or what work did you do ?
Mr. Vidal. I was a packing machine operator.
Mr. KuNziG. Then where did you go, after Cincinnati, Ohio?
Mr. Vidal. I came back to Miami.
Mr. KuNziG. When was that ?
Mr. Vidal. The latter part of 1936.
Mr. KuNziG. 1936? What sort of work did you do from 1936 on?
7374 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. ViDAL. I worked in a grocery store. Then I worked in a tire
place, cement tire factory. Then I worked for Miami Shipbuilding
Corp. Then I was in the Navy,
Mr. KuNziG. Wlien did you go in the Navy ?
Mr. ViDAL. 1944.
Mr. KuNziG. Was that prior or after you worked for the Miami
Shipbuilding Corp.?
Mr. ViDAL. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Wliat were you in the Navy ?
Mr. ViDAL. I was seaman, second class.
Mr. KuNziG. How long were you in the Navy?
Mr. ViDAL. I was in the Navy until 1945.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you receive an honorable discharge?
Mr. ViDAL. Yes, sir ; I had a medical discharge.
Mr. KuNziG. Where have you worked since you got out of the
Navy in 1945?
Mr. ViDAL. I worked at Pan American Airways.
Mr. KuNziG. You worked for them the entire time, right up to and
including the present ?
Mr. ViDAL. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Vidal, have you ever been a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Vidal. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Wlien did you join the Communist Party?
Mr. Vidal. About the latter part of 1938.
Mr. KuNziG. How long were you in the party ?
Mr. Vidal. Well, off and on, I have been up to the latter part of
1948.
Mr. KuNziG. Who recruited you into the party, Mr. Vidal?
Mr. Vidal. A man by the name of Joe Carbonell.
Mr. KuNziG. Let the record reflect this was the witness who testi-
fied here yesterday.
How did Joe Carbonell get you in the party?
Mr. Vidal. We became very good friends, and he took me to Miami
Beach to private parties, and other parties in Miami, and at those
parties he introduced me to people who were supposed to be Com-
munist Party members, and I finally had a party of my own, at home,
and he brought some of these peo]ile from Miami IBeach. and one
of the people w^ho went to my place at that time Avas Charlie Smolikoff ,
who later was the one who took my membership.
Mr. ScHERER. Did the witness yesterday, Carbonell, take the fifth
amendment to all pertinent questions?
Mr. KuNziG. I asked him repeatedly this question, whether he had
recruited this witness, and he took the fifth amendment, with obvious
good reason, it now appears.
Did you go to Communist Party meetings in Miami or Miami
Beach?
Mr. Vidal. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you recall the names of any of the people with
whom you met at these meetings, who were members of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Vidal. The names 1 am going to mention now, these people, I
am sure they are Communist Party members, because we met in closed
meeting. There are other people whom I know were party members,
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7375
but I do not recall their names, and if I see them personally, I might
be able to recognize them.
Mr, KuNziG. As we talked before, we know this gentleman has been
most careful and most anxious in his conversations with me that he
only desires to name those people he knew to be members of the party,
because he doesn't wish to hurt anyone.
Now, with that in mind, will you give us the names of persons you
met with in closed Communist Party meetings ?
Mr. ViDAL. Joe Carbonell.
Mr. KuNziG. That is the man you said.
Mr. ViDAL. James Nimmo.
Mr. KuNziG. Identify him a little further.
Mr. ViDAL. He was an organizer for the laundry workers.
Mr. KuNziG. Was he a Negro?
Mr. ViDAL. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else ?
Mr. ViDAL. Charlie Smolikotf.
Mr. KuNziG. That is the man you already mentioned ?
Mr. ViDAL. Ed Waller.
Mr. KuNziG. Ed Waller, we don't need any further identification.
He has testified before this committee. You knew him to be a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. ViDAL. He was an organizer.
Max Shlafrock.
Mr. KuNziG. How did you know Max Shlafrock to be a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. ViDAL. As I said Ijefore, these people I mention now, I met with
them in closed Communist Party meetings ?
Ted Segal.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you identify Ted Segal further ?
Mr. ViDAL. He was a man who came here from New York, and I was
told he was a lawyer in New York.
Sara Segal, his wife.
Phil Scheffsky.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you identify him further?
Mr. ViDAL. At one time he was president of local 500, TWU. He
worked for Pan American Airways.
Jack Osman.
Mr. KuNziG. Who was he?
Mr. ViDAL. Mr. Jack Osman, he worked as a store window decorator.
Mr. KuNziG. Where did he work f
Mr. ViDAL. When I used to know him, he used to work at Lerners
Shop, I believe it was.
Mr. KuNziG. In Miami?
Mr. ViDAL. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Vidal, what period of time was this you knew
Jack Osman to be a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. ViDAi.. I don't remember exactly the date.
Mr. KuNziG. Eoughly?
Mr. VmAL. I would say around 1940, 1941, 1942.
Mr. KuNziG. In what period, in the early period of time?
Mr. Vidal. In the early period ; yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else?
7376 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
]VIi-. ViDAL. Louis Popps. He worked as a porter at Pan American
Airways.
Mr. KuNziG. Any others?
Mr. ViDAii. Dave Lippert. He worked as a mechanic for Pan
American Airways. He was one of the union organizers, too.
Dave Spicey, a colored man, who worked as a porter for Pan Ameri-
can Airways.
Mr. KuNziG. Are there any other names of anyone else you can re-
call you met with as Communists while you were in the party ?
Mr. ViDAL. Offhand, I don't remember of anyone. As I said before.
[ know I met with other people, but I can't remember their names, anci
1 would have to see them to recognize them.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Vidal, what took place at the meetings of the Com-
munist Party you attended? What happened?
Mr. Vidal. There was discussions about the political situation of the
country, and there Avas lectures on connnunism. They asked every
member to try to recruit new members and to sell party literature, like
the books and pamphlets and the Daily Worker.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of the Communist Party during
the time you were in the Navy ?
Mr. Vidal. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you join up again when you got out?
Mr. Vidal. Let me explain. When I first got into the party T at-
tended regular meetings for some time. Then I kept away from them
for a while. It seems many times I went to the meeting, and I did
not like what was going on, and I quit, and this man Carbonell came
back to my house and invited me out, and took me to Communist
Party meetings.
Mr. KuNZiG. Carbonell kept coming back and taking you to meet-
ings ?
Mr. Vidal. Yes; in 1942 Charlie Smolikoff organized the shipyard
workers union, and I attended some meetings with him. Then, in
1944, I went in the Navy, and when I came back, in 1945, I went to
work for Pan American. In 1946 Smolikoff was named the organizer
of the transport workers union in Miami, and I attended several party
meetings at 730 West Flagler Street, at union heaclquartei-s.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you telling us Communist Party meetings were
held in Union Hall?
Mr. Vidal. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. You attended them personally?
Mr. Vidal. Yes,
Mr. KuNziG. When was that, in period of time ?
Mr. Vidal. 1946 to 1948.
Mr. KuNZTG. Were Communist meetings held there with approval
of union officials? Did they know about it ?
Mr. Vidal. Much of the union officials were part of the party.
Mr. KuNziG. The union officials were the same as the Communists?
Mr. Vidal. Some of them.
Mr. KuNziG. The meetings wore lield right there in the meeting
hall?
Mr. Vidal. Not in the office, but on the second floor.
Mr. KuNziG. Were they secret meetings ? There wasn't a sign that
said, "This is where the Communist Party is meeting" ?
Mr. Vidal. No, no.
Mr. KuNziG. It was secret on the second floor ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7377
Mr. ViDAL. Yes, sir,
Mr. KuNziG. Why did you finally break and leave the Communist
Party, Mr. Vidal?
Mr. Vidal. Well, sir, really, the only reason, when 1 was invited
by SmolikofF, when Smolikori" took over the office, he invited me to
party meetings. Pie never asked me, he never issued me a card, and
he used to ask me to pay dues, which I never did, and I found myself
in a position — I saw the union was controlled by the party, and at that
time I just came out of the Navy and I feared if I failed to join the
Mr. KuNziG. You feared
Mr. Vidal. I felt more secure in my job if I joined the party.
Mr. KuNziG. You are suggesting to us when a union is controlled
by Communists, it sometimes forces a union man to join them in orcier
to feel secure in his job?
Mr. Vidal. If you want to put it that way, yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Why did you get out ?
Mr. Vidal. I kept myself out of the meeting, and I tried to keep
away from the meetings as much as possible. They went to my house
several times to pick me up. and another time Carbonell and this man
Nimmo came over to my house and they told me the executive commit-
tee of the party wanted to know why I did not attend party meetings,
and why I did not pay dues, and I told them at that time to please
get out of there and don't bother me in my home, and finally when all
this came up, after the committee was here and all this propaganda
that came out in the papers, that was when I stopped going to the
meetings.
Mr. KuNziG. You are referring to the House Committee on Un-
American Activities that came here in 1948 ?
Mr. Vidal. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. And after that was all in the newspaper about Com-
munist activity, you quit ?
Mr. Vidal. It was some time after that the union split, and I was
given a number and said you are supposed to meet with Popps and
Spicey and some other man who is dead now, and he said, "You will
go, instead of using your name, you will be known by numbers," and
that was, I mean, after that, I never went to any meetings.
As I said before, they used to come to my. house to pick me up.
Mr. KuNziG. I have no further questions of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. About how many men were in the Communist Party in
Miami that you knew were Communists at that time ?
Mr. Vidal. Sir, I did not have any4dea, because there were separate
groups.
Mr. KuNziG. How many in your group ?
Mr. Vidal. There might be about 7 or 8, sir.
Mr. Velde. Let me say to you, sir, you, too, have rendered a very
valuable and patriotic service to your country by giving us the infor-
mation you did about Communist activities in this area.
With that, you are dismissed, with the committee's thanks.
The committee will stand in recess for 10 minutes.
(Thereupon, at 2 : 53 p. m., the hearing was recessed for 10 minutes.)
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder was absent at the conclusion
of the recess.)
55634 — 55— pt. 1 7
7378 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order. Let the record show
T have appointed a subcommittee consisting of Mr. Clardy, Mr.
Scherer, Mr. Doyle, and myself as chairman for the purpose of this
hearing. Will you call you'r next witness, please?
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Max Shlafrock.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this com-
mittee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Shlafrock. I do.
Mr. Dixon. My name is Howard W. Dixon. My address is 606
Seybold Building. The witness would like to request
Mr. Clardy. Counsel, you were told yesterday that you were not
permitted to make arguments and address the Chair. If you want
to advise your client, you have a right to do it, but you are not going
to make this a forum. Now, will you sit down ?
Mr. VEiiDE. You again request for your client that you make a
statement ?
Mr. Dixon. Yes, sir ; I have a request to make for my client.
Mr. Velde. If you care to submit a written statement to the com-
mittee, the committee will receive it and take it into consideration.
TESTIMONY OF MAX SHLAFROCK, MIAMI, FLA.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you state your name, please, Mr. Shlafrock?
Mr. Shlafrock, My name is Max Shlafrock.
Mr. KuNziG. And your present address ?
Mr. Shlafrock. 1857 Northwest 38th Street.
Mr. KuNziG. What is your employment, sir?
Mr. Shlafrock. I was a general contractor. Through the pub-
licity I have gotten, I have been reduced to a carpenter.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you give us a brief resume of your educational
background, sir?
Mr. Shlafrock. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee,
I would like to make the request that my picture not be televised, and
I will continue.
Mr, Velde. You are familiar with the rules. You were given a copy
of the rules of the committee ; were you not?
Mr. Shlafrock. I w^as busy, Mr. Chairman, and I didn't have time
to read it thoroughly and understand it thoroughly.
Mr. Velde, There is no live television here on this program, as
you probably know. Our rules only cover live television. As far as
the use of press cameras and newsreels, Ave cannot make any rule to
prevent them from giving the information to the public. I would,
however, if the witness will promise to answer the questions that are
presented to him without taking the fifth amendment, I would then
ask that the news photographers desist taking pictures while you
testify. Does the witness agree to that ?
Mr. Shlafrock, I am not willing to sell the Bill of Rights for my
personal safety and liberties,
Mr. Clardy, The press has the right to report the activities of
you or anyone else appearing before this connnittee and we do not
want to let the witness prescribe the rules under which the free press
shall operate.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7379
Mr. Velde. The gentleman has made a very fine statement, but
the gentleman knows in the past we do not want any demonstrations
from the audience, either favorable to the committee or unfavorable
to the committee. This hearing should proceed as other hearings have
in the past.
Mr. Clardy. I am sorry I invoked it, but I can't say now I am really
sorry down in my heart.
Mr. KuNziG. jNIr. Shlafrock, would you answer the question, please,
which was, Would you give us a brief resume of your educational
background ?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir; I had about 2 weeks of learning to read
and write prior to my coming to this country in 1921.
Mr. KuNziG. Where were you born, sir?
Mr. Shalfrock. In Poland. I came here at the age of 12. I knew
no politics. I knew no nothing, and I imported nothing except myself
and my services.
Mr. KuNziG. Tell us where you went to school ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I went to various schools in the city of New York —
kept moving from place to place. 1 attended various elementary
schools. I did not gi-aduate from elementary school. My schooling
consisted of actually about 4 or 5 grades of elementary school.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you a citizen today ?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. When did you become a citizen?
Mr. Shlafrock. I was a citizen when I came here, through deriva-
tive citizenship.
Mr. KuNziG. Give us a brief resume of your employment, please,
Mr. Shlafrock.
Mr. Shlafrock. Well, I was doing general contracting from 1939
until here of late, and now I do carpenter work — whatever work I
can get. I am a carpenter by trade.
INIr. KuNziG. Have you ever, Mr. Shlafrock, been a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, Mr. Chairman, on the
grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you in the courtroom when Mr. Vidal identified
3^ou as, a short time ago, someone he knew to be a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, Mr. Chairman.
(At this point Mr. Shlafrock conferred with Mr. Dixon.)
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. You were in the courtroom, right here in this room,
and did you hear Mr. Vidal identify you?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Was that identification correct?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. KuNziG. On the same grounds?
Mr. Shlafrock. On the same grounds, that it would tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, Mr. Chairman, for the
same reasons.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever connected with the Florida Press and
Educational League?
7380 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, too, Mr. Chairman, for
the reasons previously mentioned.
Mr. KuNziG. As has already been stated in this hearing, the Florida
Press and Educational League is cited as a subversive branch of the
Communist Political Association by Attorney General Tom Clark in
1949. Were you ever a member of the International Workers' Order?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, Mr. Chairman, for the
same reasons.
Mr. KuNziG. The International Workers' Order is cited as subver-
sive and communistic by Attorney General Tom Clark in 1947 and
1948, by Attorney General Francis Biddle as early as 1942, and by the
Special Committee on Un-American Activities, and this committee,
and has perhaps more citations than any organization in the book.
Were you ever a member of the Civil Rights Congress?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, too, Mr. Chairman, on
the ground it would tend to incriminate.
Mr. KuNziG. The Civil Rights Congress was cited as subversive and
communistic in 1947 and 1948; cited as an organization formed in
April 1946 as a merger of two other Communist-front organizations,
the International Labor Defense and the National Federation for
Constitutional Liberties, dedicated not to the broader issues of civil
liberties, but specifically to the defense of individual Communists and
the Communist Party and controlled by individuals who are either
members of the Communist Party or openly loyal to it, bj' the Con-
gressional Committee on Un-American Activities in 1947. You
refuse to answer ?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG, Were you a member of the Southern Conference for
Human Welfare ?
Mr. Shlafrock. My answer is the same.
Mr. KuNziG. And that, of course, as I have cited today, is a cited
organization. I^t me ask you, Mr. Shlafrock, if it isn't true that
Communist Party meetings were held in your own home ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you ever hear of the name Jack London, and I
don't mean the writer ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. KuNziG. Isn't it a fact you have gone under the name of Jack
Ix»ndon ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Clardy. I ask he be directed to answer that.
Mr. Velde. Certainly the Chair concurs and you are directed to
answer that question. There is nothing in the answer to that question
that could possibly incriminate you.
Mr. ScHERER. Unless that name was used by him as a member of the
Communist Party, then he would have a right to invoke the fifth
amendment. We know many party members used another name.
Mr. Veij)e. It is my understanding he asked the question was he
acquainted with Jack London.
Mr. Scherer. He asked if he ever used that name.
Mr. Clardy. I don't think he is entitled to the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. In either case, you are still directed to answer the ques-
tion as to whether you ever used the name of Jack London.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7381
Mr. Shlafrock. It may be a chain in the link of evidence that would
tend to incriminate me. I therefore refuse to answer that.
Mr. Clardy. That complete answer was suggested to you by counsel
sitting at your left ; was it not ?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Just what I thought. I think counsel should be ad-
vised he has a right to advise him on his legal rights, but not to put
the answer in his mouth.
Mr. ScHERER. I respectfully disagree with the Chair's ruling. I
think the man lias a right to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Clardy. But counsel has no right to put the answer in his
mouth.
Mr. ScHERER. I am not talking about counsel.
Mr. Clardy. I am. I think counsel is not performing the func-
tions of counsel and is going beyond those he is entitled to. If it
persists, I intend to make a point of it.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever connected, Mr. Shlafrock, with the
northwest section of the Communist Party here in Miami ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, Mr, Chairman, on the
grounds previously mentioned.
Mr. KuNziG. Isn't it a fact that the Northwest Section Club of the
Communist Party held meetings here in JSIiami in your home?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. KuNziG. For the same reason ?
Mr. Shlafrock. For the same reason, yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever in the Armed Forces of the United
States ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I was rejected for physical reasons.
Mr. Doyle. May I have that answer ?
Mr. KuNziG. He was rejected for physical reasons. Plave you ever
worked on any Government projects of any kind?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. What kind ?
Mr. Shlafrock. Various Government projects during the war.
Mr. KuNziG. What type of Government projects ?
Mr. Shlafrock. Building.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of the Communist Part}^ Avhen
you were working for the Government projects during the war?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Scherer. The fact is, you were a member of the Communist
Party at that time ; were you not ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you notify the Government in any way, any papers
or contracts or anything that you filled out, that you were a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I don't recall that.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you recall whether you ever told the United States
Government, "I am a Communist"?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. KuNziG. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. I am not sure I understand the nature of the employ-
ment that you were engaged in, except that it had some connection
with the Government.
7382 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Shlafrock. I did some work in this very building.
Mr. Clardy. What kind of work ?
Mr. Shlafrock. The construction work.
Mr. Clardy. Is that the only type of work you engaged in that had
any connection with the Government ?
Mr. Shlafrock. That's right.
Mr. Clardy. Did you work directly for the Government or for some
contracitor ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I had a contract.
Mr. Clardy. You had a contract with the Government?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. You were not called on at any time to sign an applica-
tion form for work in the Government, were you ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I don't recall.
Mr. Clardy. Do you recall ever signing anything in the nature of
a non-Conununist oath ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I don't think so.
Mr. Clardy, You are not sure of that, however ?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. What is your answer?
Mr. Shlafrock. That is correct ; I am not sure.
Mr. Clardy. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. ScHERER. Pursuing Mr. Clardy's questions a little further, what
other oonstructioil project. Government construction projects, did you
participate in ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I remodeled this recruiting station right here
next to this building.
Mr. ScHERER. Were there any connected with the defense effort
directly ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I should think it would be.
Mr. Scherer. Which?
Mr. Shlafrock. Pardon?
Mr. Scherer. What other projects were connected with the defense
effort?
Mr. Shlafrock. I worked as a carpenter during the war for various
contractors.
Mr. Scherer. I understand you have your own business; is that
right?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Wliat is the name of that business ?
Mr. Shlafrock. The name of my business is M. S. Construction Co.
Mr. Scherer. My question was. Did you ever have any contracts with
the Defense Department ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I don't think so.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. When you did the contract work on the recruiting
accommodations next door to this building, as I understand it, what
department of the United States Government did you deal with?
Mr. Shlafrock. I think it was the
Mr. Scherer. To refresh your recollection, was it General Services
Administration ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I think it was GSA.
Mr. Doyle. About how long ago was that ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I think it was about 2 years ago.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7383
Mr. Doyle. With what office, of that department of the Govern-
ment did you deal? The Miami office, or the Washington office, or
some other office ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I think it was the regional office in Atlanta, if
I'm not mistaken.
Mr. Doyle. Atlanta, Ga.?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Now, in connection with j'our offer — did you do that
by oti'er of bid ?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Competitive bidding?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. In connection with that operation, were you requested
or required to file any statement in connection with that bid as to your
loyalty?
Mr. Shlafrock. I don't think so.
Mr. Doyle. I haven't asked my question yet. I mean I haven't
completed it. Were you required or requested to file any statement
on your own behalf in connection with that bid as to whether or not
you were then or ever had been a member of any party or organization
tliat advocated the forceful and violent overthrow of our form of
government ?
Mr. Shlafrock. To the best of my recollection, no.
Mr. Doyle. Well, your recollection ought to be pretty clear after
only 2 years, should it not ?
JNIr. Scherer. I am on the Public Works Committee, Mr. Doyle,
and my best recollection is there was no such requirement of any
independent contractor.
Mr. Doyle. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, if there isn't any requirement
by the United States Government, that there should be, whether they
are independent contractors or not. It seems to me every depart-
ment of government ought to require an affidavit by any person bid-
ding with the Government, if they are not now or ever have been
members of any organization advocating the forceful and violent
overthrow of our form of government. Don't you agree with me,
Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Velde. The Chair certainly concurs. Of course, that will be
up to the next Congress.
Mr. Ci-ARDY. I am not so sure. Congressman, but what one of the
dozen or so bills we have something to do with might cover that. Just
runing through hastily here, I think at least one of them slants in
that direction.
Mr. Doyle. If we don't have one, I'll see one is offered in January
when we get back there.
Mr. Clardy. I think it is a laudable idea.
Mr. Doyle. In connection with your work as an independent con-
tractor, are you a member of the contractors' association? Do they
have such in Miami ?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes; they have such, but I didn't belong to it.
Mr. Doyle. You don't belong to it. Did you ever ?
Mr. Shlafrock. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. How long ago Avere you rejected from the service in
the military, on physical reasons ?
7384 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Shlafrock. I don't loiow the exact date, but it was some-
where about 1944.
Mr, Doyxj:. Somewhere about 1944. Were you called before a
board more than once ?
Mr. SriLAFROCK. For examination ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. SiiLAFROCK. I don't remember. I was examined at Camp
Blanding and sent home.
Mr. Doyle. Do you remember the number of the board?
Mr. Shlafrock. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. DoYi^E. In what city was that board located?
Mr. Shlafrock. In Miami.
Mr. DoYLE. In connection with your statement to your exemption
board, did you state in that identification sheet which they asked for
the fact that you ever used the name of Jack London ?
Mr. Shlafrock. Mr. Chairman, I don't recollect anything like that.
Mr. DoYi-,E. At that time, had you used the name of Jack London ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. You understand my question, do you ? I want to make
sure that you do. I'm asking you whether or not at the time you
filed your identification papers with your own exemption board in
connection with military service in the United States Government,
for the protection of your own country, you filed the information that
at that time you were also known by the name of Jack London, if you
were?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Doyle. What year did you file that statement with your ex-
emption board ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I don't recollect the exact year, but it was some-
where in the area of 1944 or 1945.
Mr. Doyle. Not very long ago. Have you now any application or
showing before any department of the United States Government in
connection with any bid?
Mr. Shlafrock. At present, I'm not bidding any work.
Mr. Doyle. I'm not sure if that answers the question. Have you
now any application pending in connection with any offer to bid, with
any department of the ITnited States Government, either under the
name of Max Shlafrock or Jack London, or any other name?
Mr. Shlafrock. To the best of my
(At this point Mr. Shlafrock conferred with Mr. Dixon.)
Mr. Shlafrock. I don't know of anything about any other names,
but under my name I don't think I have any bids or applications for
bids now.
Mr. Doyle. You mean you don't know whether you have an appli-
cation ?
Mr. Shi.afrock. I don't think so.
Mr. Doyle. Filed with any department of the United States Gov-
ernment, in any other name but Max Shlafrock?
Mr. Shlafrock. That is the only name I have operated under.
Mr. Doyle. You came to this country at the age of 12, as I under-
stand it?
Mr. Shlafrock. That's correct, approximately 12 years of age.
Mr. Doyle. Your father or mother had preceded you ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7385
Mr. Shlafrock. My father. He is an ex-serviceman, First World
War.
Mr. Doyle. Of the United States Government?
Mr. Shlafrock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman, on account of the
short time.
Mr. Velde. Mr. — Shlafrock — is that right ?
Mr. Shlafrock. That is near enough.
Mr. Velde. Have you determined in your own mind not to give us
any information whatsoever concerning your past communistic activi-
ties?
Mr. Shlafrock. Just a moment, please.
(At this point Mr. Shlafrock conferred with Mr. Dixon.)
Mr. Shlafrock. INIr. Chairman, I know of no activities that I can
reveal to this committee.
Mr. Velde. Well, are you willing, then, to say you were not a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Velde. It is very apparent to me that the witness will not give
us any information concerning his Communist Party activities.
Wlien the gentleman from California asked concerning whether or
not he had an application in for any contract with the United States
Government, I now direct our investigators to determine whether or
not he has any application for a contract with the United States
Government, either under his name or under any other name, so that
we might be able to reveal this testimony to the proper authorities.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one further question.
Do you have a partner at the present time ?
Mr. Shlafrock. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you working in collaboration or together with
any other person?
Mr. Shlafrock. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you working through any other person ? Is there
any other person who is getting a contract, through whom you are
working ?
Mr. Shlafrock. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Remember, you are under oath.
Mr. Shlafrock. I know, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. All right.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, the witness has claimed the privilege as
to himself being now a member of the Communist Party, or having
been.
In view of the fact, Mr. Shlafrock, you have benefited monetarily
apparently by contracting with the United States Government in
building the recruiting station, or helping to, which deals with our na-
tional defense exclusively, and in view of the fact that it has been well
established that the Communist Party program is an international
conspiracy designed to forcibly overthrow our constitutional form of
government, and I believe you heard Mr. Long so testify within the
last hour here in this very courtroom, I'm going to ask you whether
or not you have any knowledge of Communist Party activities in the
Miami area.
7386 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
That isn't asking you, sir, whether or not you were or are a member,
but possibly you have some infonnation you would want to impart
to your own congressional committee, in order to help uncover the
subversion of the Communist Party that certainly would blow to hell if
it could the very recruiting station which you helped build.
Have you any such information, dealing with Communist Party ac-
tivities in the Miami area?
Mr. SiiLAFROCK. There is nothing that I know of that would help
this committee, Mr. Chairman,
Mr. Doyle. That is your own conclusion. Have you any informa-
tion about the activities of the Communist Party in this area ? Give us
the fact honestly, please, and then let us say whether or not we can
tie it in with some other facts.
Mr. Shlafrock. I refuse to answer that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I'm going to see to it, Mr. Chairman and members
of the committee, that no other man that claims the fifth amendment
is ever going to get a chance to contract wdth the United States Gov-
ernment.
Mr. Velde. Any further questions? If not, the witness is excused.
Dismissed. Call your next witness.
Mr. KuNZiG. Mr, Jose Tamargo.
Mr. Velde. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about
to give to this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Tamargo. I do.
Mr. Velde. Would you give your full name, please sir, and spell it?
TESTIMONY OF JOSE DOMINUEZ TAMARGO, JR.
Mr. Tamargo. Jose Dominuez Tamargo, Jr.
Mr. KuNziG. Where have you lived, Mr. Tamargo ?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, sir, I wouldn't like to give my address, where
I live.
Mr. KuNziG. What city do you live in ?
Mr. Tamargo. New York State.
Mr. KuNZiG. What part of New York State?
Mr. Tamargo. The Bronx.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you wish to testify here and have a counsel ? You
understand, of course, you have a right to counsel. Or are you per-
fectly willing to testify without counsel ?
Mr. Tamargo. Willing to testify without counsel.
Mr. KuNZiG. Where were you born, Mr. Tamargo?
Mr. Tamargo. Habana, Cuba.
Mr. KuNziG. What is your present employment?
Mr. Tamargo. I'm a free-lance painter.
Mr. KuNZiG. What type of painter?
Mr. Tamargo. Inside.
Mr. KuNziG. When did you come to this country ?
Mr. Tamargo. To the best of my knowledge, it was 1923.
Mr. KuNziG. When were you born ?
Mr. Tamargo. April 1, 1921.
Mr. KuNziG. And you derived citizenship, did you, througli your
parents?
Mr. Tamargo. My father is American-born citizen.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7387
Mr. KuNziG. I see. Could you give us just a few facts about your
education, sir?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, I went to school to the ninth grade.
Mr. KuNziG. And where did you go to school to the ninth grade?
Mr. Tamargo. Tampa, Fla.
Mr. KuNziG. And how have you been employed, Mr. Tamargo ?
Mr. Tamargo. While I was living in Tampa I was employed as a
cigarmaker.
Mr. KuNziG. How long were you employed as a cigarmaker, from
when to when?
Mr. Tamargo. From — I'm not positive about the date I came there.
To the best of my knowledge, 1936 to about 1946,
Mr. KuNZiG. And when did you move to New York State?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, I left some time in 1946. Came back in about
1948, and then moved again in 1951.
Mr. KuNZiG. Where did you work from 1936 to 1946 as a cigar-
maker, what company?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, most of the time I worked in Regensburgh &
Sons.
Mr. Kunzig. In Tampa, Fla.?
Mr, Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kunzig. And what type work did you do in the cigar business ?
Mr. Tamargo. Cigarmaker.
Mr. Kunzig. Now, Mr. Tamargo, have you ever been a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. Kunzig. When did you join?
Mr. Tamargo. To the best of my recollection, it was sometime in
1943 or 1944.
Mr. Kunzig. Were you ever connected with any union when you
were working as a cigarmaker?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kunzig. What union ?
Mr. Tamargo. Local 500 and local 462.
Mr. Kunzig. Wliere was that?
Mr, Tamargo. Tampa, Fla.
Mr. Kunzig. Now, how did you become — how, sj)ecifically, did you
become a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Tamargo, You Avant to know how I went about it?
Mr. Kunzig, Yes.
Mr. Tamargo. Well, I talked to a fellow there named Julio Casuela.
I don't buy that as his real name. I knew him by that name.
Mr. Kunzig. You don't know whether it is his real name; that is
the name you knew him by ?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kunzig. Was he an American citizen, Cuban, Puerto Rican, or
what?
Mr. Tamargo. He was Puerto Rican.
Mr. Kunzig. Was he a member of the party ?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kunzig, You found out later, I presume. Did you know then ?
Mr, Tamargo, Well, I heard he was a member. That is why I
talked to him.
Mr. Kunzig. What did he tell you?
7388 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Tamargo. He told me I had to talk to Alfredo Rodriguez and
Frank Fernandez and Mariano Rodriguez.
Mr. KuNziG. Is Mariano Rodriguez the man who testified just a
short time ago ?
Mr, Tamargo. I don't know,
Mr. KuNziG. Is Mariano Rodriguez in the room at the present
time? If so, please stand.
Will you turn around and see if that is the man you know?
Mr. Tamargo. That is both Mariano Rodriguez, and Frank Fer-
nandez with the eyeglasses, in the corner.
Mr. Velde. You are identifying two of them ?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir. Frank Fernandez is the man with the
glasses, and to his right is Mariano Rodriguez.
Mr. KuxziG. Did you know those two men as members of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, then
Mr. KuNziG. Not then, but at any time.
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, we will go back and take it up in chronological
order.
You said Casuela said you would have to talk to these people you
mentioned, Alfredo Rodriguez, Frank Fernandez, and Mariano
Rodriguez.
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Then what happened ?
Mr. Tamargo. I talked to them, and then he told me to come on
Wednesday, on Wednesday of that week. And I went in there, and
they told me I had to pay some dues. He asked me how much I made
a week. I told him. He said the dues were computed depending on
how much the workere made. He said that was a workers' party, and
everybody had to pay for it.
Mr. Kunzig. How much did you have to pay ?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, I believe I had to pay $2; what I was making
at that time, about $2 a month.
Mr. Kunzig. You had to pay, based upon what you were making
at that time, you had to pay $2 a month ?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kunzig. To the Communist Party as dues ?
Mr. Tamargo, Yes, sir,
Mr, Kunzig, Did Casuela ever tell you you could become a member
of the party ?
Mr, Tamargo. He told me I had to talk to them. He asked me a
lot of questions, how come I wanted to join the party and why, and
who had sent me to him, and all those questions, before he told me
I had to talk to them.
Mr. Kunzig. When did you actually then become a member, and
how?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, it was like I told you ; to the best of my knowl-
edge, 1943 or 1944, when I talked to him. I went in there to a
meeting they had upstairs.
Mr. Kunzig. Upstairs where ?
Mr. Tamargo. In the Labor Temple, 8th Avenue and 16th Street.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7389
Mr. KuNziG. Is that a labor-union building in Tampa ?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, it belongs to the workers there. The labor
union has different offices there.
Mr. KuNziG. But it is not publicly known as a Communist Party
building, is it ?
Mr. Tamargo. No, sir; it is a union building, belonging to the
workers.
Mr. KuNziG. But the Communists have meetings there ?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir. I believe they pay rent for that particular
room that they have.
Mr. KuNziG. Well, now, you were taken to a meeting. Were you
then admitted to the party ? How did you actually become a member ?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, like I told you, they asked me a lot of questions,
and then they told me I had to pay the dues, and they gave me a card.
Mr. KuNziG. And you paid the dues and got the card, and then you
became a member ?
Mr. Tamargo. That's right.
Mr. KuNziG. To whom did you pay dues ?
Mr. Tamargo. I paid dues to different individuals there.
Mr. KuNziG. To which ones ?
Mr. Tamargo. Alfredo Rodriguez, Mariano Rodriguez, Frank
Fernandez, and sometimes when I'm overdue, you know, they ask
anybody that is overdue while the meeting is going on, they ask you,
"Anybody behind on dues come forward and pay dues," so whoever
i s there at the table I pay .
Mr. KuNziG. Now, Frank Fernandez and the Mariano Rodriguez
you mentioned, to whom you paid dues at various time, are the same
two people you just identified in this room; is that correct?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. So you met with them in closed Communist Party
meetings and know you paid dues to them ?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Communist dues. Now, can you tell us, keeping in
mind, as we have already said to you, we are only interested in the
names of those people whom you know of your own personal knowl-
edge to have been members of the Communist Party — will you tell us
the people you met, the names of the people you know to be members
of the Communist Party when you were in it at Tampa, Fla. ?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, I will name only those I know. I have been
with them in closed Communist meetings.
Mr. KuNziG. That's right. We don't want anybody you are not
sure of.
Mr. Tamargo. Lou Ornitz.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you identify him further, please?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, it is my belief he was an organizer for the
CIO at one time, and then for the A. F. of L. He is a heavy-built
man, maybe shorter than I am, with heavy-lens glasses. I believe he
is nearsighted.
Mr. KuNziG. And you knew him to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes; and at one time he said he had also fought in
the civil war in Spain.
Mr. KuNziG. Whom else did you know ?
7390 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Tamargo. Frank Diez.
Mr. KuNziG. When did yon know him to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Tamargo. During these same years.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you meet in Communist Party meetings with
him?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else ?
Mr. Tamargo. George Nelson.
Mr. KuNziG. Who was George Nelson ?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, I believe he was southern organizer or some
big shot in the party. That is my belief.
Mr. KuNziG. Did he come down and address some of your meetings ?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNZiG. He has already been identified here, of course. Wlio
else, Mr. Tamargo ?
Mr. Tamargo. Lucas Rodriguez.
Mr. KuNziG. This is another Rodriguez — Lucas?
Mr. Tamargo. Right
Mr. Kunzig. Is he still in this country?
Mr. Tamargo. He was deported from New York City.
Mr. Kunzig. Do you know why?
Mr. Tamargo. For being a Communist.
Mr. Kunzig. Who else?
Mr. Tamargo. Violeta Rodriguez.
Mr. Kunzig. Who is she ?
Mr. Tamargo. She is Mariano Rodriguez' wife.
Mr. Kunzig. The man you just identified, in the back of this room?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kunzig. You knew not only Mariano Rodriguez, but you knew
his wife, Violeta Rodriguez, also, to be members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counselor, at this point the chairman will have to
leave, and I appoint a subcommittee consisting of Mr. Clardy to take
the chair, and Mr. Doyle, for the pui-pose of further hearing.
I also want to announce that the Miami Bar Association has offered
to give us assistance, or rather give the witness who requested legal
assistance, and we are very gi'ateful for their ofl'er to assist this wit-
ness. We are very grateful to the Miami Bar Association that they
have cooperated with this committee in this manner.
Proceed, Mr. Clardy.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point. )
Mr. Kunzig. Now, would you please continue? You had men-
tioned Frank Diez, George Nelson, Mariano Rodriguez, Violeta Rod-
riguez ; who else did you know as members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Tamargo. Mirta Cruz.
Mr. Kunzig. "V^Hiere was she born ; if you know ?
Mr. Tamargo. I believe she was born in Habana, Cuba.
Mr. Kunzig. Do you know whether she was a citizen ?
Mr. Tamargo. I couldn't tell you, sir.
Mr. Kunzig. You don't know? Could you describe Mirta Cruz
any further, any more identification as to who she is ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7391
Mr, Tamaego. Well, she is a ^^oiing girl. I imagine about 36.
Mr. KuNziG. Does she work in Tampa ?
Mr. Tamargo. I don't know whether she worked or not, but I knew
her then in the party.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know where slie lived, by any chance ?
Mr. Tamargo. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. KuNziG. Is she big, tall, short?
Mr. Tamargo. No ; she is slender, small, nice looking.
Mr. KuNziG. Well now, after Mirta Cruz, are there ony others you
knew as members of the Communist Party with you ?
Mr. Tamargo. Felicidad Hernandez.
Mr. KuNziG, Where did she live?
Mr. Tamargo. I don't know where she lived.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you describe her any further ?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, she was old ; be about 58 or 60. She is gray-
haired, wears glasses.
Mr. KuNziG. Did she work over there in Tampa?
Mr. Tamargo. I believe she did, but where slie worked, I don't
know. I know her brother was foreman in one of the cigar factories.
Mr. Claedy. That age, as I understand, is as of now, or some other
period ?
Mr. Tamargo. Beg your pardon, sir?
Mr. Clardy, You said Felicidad Hernandez was 58 or 60. Do you
mean now, or some other date?
Mr. Tamargo. I believe she is 58 or 60 now.
Mr. KuNziG. Was any other member of her family a member of
the party ?
Mr. Tamargo. She had a son. She introduced him as her son there,
a young fellow. I believe his name was Joe Hernandez.
Mr. KuNziG. Any other members, now, you knew in the party ?
Mr. Tamargo. Ophelia Garcia.
Mr. KuNziG. Tell us more about Ophelia Garcia.
Mr. Tamargo. Well, Ophelia Garcia, the last I heard of him, he was
in the immigration hearing here in Miami. He was scheduled for
deportation.
Mr. Clardy. When was that?
Mr. Tamargo. Some time this year; I believe he will be deported
January 4. That is the information I have.
Mr. KuNZiG. Any others?
Mr. Tamargo. Julio Sanchez Alojizo.
Mr. Kunzig. Who is Julio Sanchez Alonzo?
Mr. Tamargo. They call him "Red." That is all I know. He is
always making speeches out at the Labor Temple. It won't be hard
to see him there.
Mr. Kunzig. Is he still there : do you know ?
Mr. Tamargo. The last I know, he was still hollering over there.
Mr. Kunzig. Now, you knew him to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Tamargo. That's right.
Mr. Kunzig. Was he a union leader?
Mr. Tamargo. Not that I know of.
]Mr. Kunzig. Why was he, as you put it, hollering in the union
temple?
7392 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Tamargo. Every time he read the press, he said the "reactionary
press," and he start hollering every time something come out in the
press about the war in China or anything.
Mr. KuNziG. You mentioned he was in the union temple. Was he in
just one of the rooms?
Mr. Tamargo. No ; he goes in and out. He was always there, out-
side.
Mr. Clardy. You mean he was hollering, as you call it, about the
local newspapers, or any newspapers ?
Mr. Tamargo. The only paper he didn't holler about was the Daily
Worker. All the others were reactionaiy and capitalistic newspaper's.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else did you know as a member of the party ?
Mr. Tamargo. Alfredo Rodriquez.
Mr. KuNziG. I think you have already mentioned him. Who else ?
Mr. Tamargo. Gerado Sanchez.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him under any other name ?
Mr. Tamargo. Jerry Sanders.
Mr. KuNZiG. Where did he use the name Jeriy Sanders ?
Mr. Tamargo. He used to write sometimes in the workers' paper.
Mr. KuNZiG. What paper was that?
Mr. Tamargo. That is the union paper.
Mr. KuNziG. Where?
Mr. Tamargo. In Tampa.
Mr. KuNZiG. And he wrote under the name of Jerry Sanders?
Mr. Tamargo. That's correct.
Mr. KuNziG. His real name is Gerado Sanchez ? Do you know his
address, what he looks like ? Can you describe anything further about
him?
Mr. Tamargo. He is short. I would say about five, seven, tan com-
plexion, has chickenpox holes all over his face.
Mr. KuNziG. Any other names, now ?
Mr. Tamargo. Leopoldo deLamas.
Mr. KuNziG. ^Vho is he?
Mr. Tamargo. He was a member of the party, too.
Mr. KuNziG. And what identification can you give of Leopoldo
deLamas?
Mr. Tamargo. He worked there one time, in King Bee.
Mr. KuNZiG. He worked where?
Mr. Tamargo. King Bee cigar factory. He was shop steward there.
Mr. KuNziG. And roughly when was this, during the war?
Mr. Tamargo. No. Maybe during the war; before I joined the
party he was shop steward there.
Mr. KuNziG. He was shop steward before you joined the party ?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, and then while I was in the party he worked at
Regensburgh & Sons.
Mr. KuNZiG. Who else did you know as a party member?
Mr. Tamargo. Kathleen Lindian.
Mr. KuNziG. Who was she ?
Mr. Tamargo. I believe she was the recording secretary of the party
in 1943 or 1944.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you identify her any further, address or work,
or anything like that ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7393
Mr. Tamargo. The last I heard of her she was in Texas. She was
married to Saquina Lindian, who was also a member of the party. He
is now dead.
Mr. Clardy. Do yon know whether Kathleen Lindian is still in the
party ?
Mr. Tamargo. No sir; she has appeared as a witness for the United
States Department of Justice in its immigration hearings.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else do you know ? Any other names ?
Mr. Tamargo. Mario Spetia.
Mr. KuNziG. He was at one time secretary of local 500, and now I
believe he is still international president of CIO.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew him as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes.
Mr. Kunzig. Do you know whether he is still a member ? Was he
still a member when you got out, in other words?
Mr. Tamargo. No, sir. I started missing him a few meetings.
After I started missing him, he left.
Mr. Kunzig. You think he left the party ?
Mr. Tamargo. It is my belief he left the party.
Mr. Kunzig. Wliy did you join the Communist Party?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, sometime in 1940 or 1939 an FBI agent talked
to me and asked me what local I belonged and if I knew anything
about the Communist conspiracy. I told him I had heard but that I
didn't know. He said if I could get in it, but I tried and I couldn't get
in, and then later was when I joined the party in 1943 or 1944. I went
to the post office in Tampa, Fla., to the FBI there and I talked to an
FBI agent and I told him about that agent having come and spoke
to me about it, about the party, and I explained everything to him, and
he said that he will let me know.
I didn't hear from him for awhile and then one day while I was
working an agent come and he showed me his credentials and started
asking me questions and told me if I could join the party, so he told
me any dues, anything I pay, that they will reimburse me.
Mr. Clardy. So you actually joined the party at the request of the
Government ?
Mr. Tamargo. Under the suggestion of the FBI agent ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kunzig. Did you ever have any information about the Com-
munist Party ordering strikes among cigar workers ?
Mr. Tamargo. Yes, sir. Wliile I was shop steward in Regensburgh
& Sons, one of the cigar factories over there, Santiana, raised the price
of the cigar workers there by just changing from American-grown
tobacco to Havana tobacco, they raised the price, so 3 or 4 come to
me and ask me about getting the boys on strike. I told them I
couldn't do that, so if they wanted, they could get them out themselves
but I coudn't — as a union delegate, I couldn't get them out so Violeta
Rodriguez, Mariano's wife, was among them and another fellow by
the name of Jesus Chapu, so she told me before they could pull the
factory out they would have to talk to Mariano Rodriguez and she
called Mariano — where I don't know — and she said it was all right,
he could get them out, so they got the workers out and after they were
out for about a week, the Communists called me and told me I had to
55634— 55— pt. 1 8
7394 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
send them back to work, so I told tliem, "How come you tell me to
take them out and then they just come out and push them in." I said,
"What do you think I am, a chicken chaser, I will tell them 'Get out'
and then 'Go in'?"
So they told me it was the order of the party, that I was under the
orders ot the party ; I couldn't do anything without the party's order
and I had to do everything they told me, so I told them, "If you want
to push them in again "
So Lou Ornitz made a speech and a couple of them made a speech,
but the workers didn't believe it; they didn't go in until they got their
pay increase.
Mr. KuNziG. Was there ever any attempt that you know of to or-
ganize Negroes in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, sir ; in one of the Communist meetings there
was talk about organizing the colored citizens over there in Tampa
and it was brought out that maybe they could approach a colored
minister over there. If they could approach him to come to the meet-
ings and got him to be a Communist, thajt it woidd be easy to have the
other colored people join the party because they would follow what-
ever the minister would say, they would follow it.
Mr. KuNziG. To your knowledge, was that done ?
Mr. Tamargo. I don't know whether they accomplished it or not.
Mr. Kunzig. Was there ever any discussion with you about recruit-
ing burglars into the party ?
Mr. Tamargo. Once I told them there was somebody in the party
that didn't look too good to me and they told me they have to use
everybody, sometimeiS you need burglars to open a safe or you have
to recruit burglars, too. Suppose you have to shoot somebody, so
you need a torpedo ; that is what they told me.
Mr. Kunzig. If the Communist Party has to shoot somebody, they
need, as you said, a torpedo ?
Mr. Tamargo. A gun man, so you have to use everybody you can ;
it don't make much difference who he is as long as you can use him ;
you have to use him.
Mr. Clardy. That is what you call being democratic. Small "d."
Mr. Kunzig. How did you get out of the party and why ?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, in 1946, I believe it was, 1946 I left and then
I came back, I believe it was in 1948 and they had already left the
Labor Temple. Somebody run them out of there, so I asked where
the meetings were held and they told me at different places. Once
they told me some garage on 16th Street, and then I attended once some
private house on I7th Avenue.
Mr. Kunzig. This is in Tampa?
Mr. Tamargo. In Tampa, so one was going this way, and the other
was going this way, so I didn't
Mr. Kunzig. One was on 16th Street and the other I7th Avenue.
Wliy did you get out ? Wliy ? Did you lose interest, or what hap-
pened ?
Mr. Tamargo. I lost interest the first day I got in there, but I
stayed.
Mr. Kunzig. You stayed an awful lot of years, if you lost interest.
Did you stay because it was safer for your union job or position?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7395
Mr. Tamargo. No, sir. I stayed during the time that I was in the
party; I took the information to the FBI most every week or 2 weeks.
They told me, "Don't take no notes, no pictures." Whenever they
wanted to contact me, they called me, or I called them, but
Mr. ScHERER. The reason you stayed, you were an undercover agent
for the FBI during that time.
Mr. KuNziG. That is correct ; is it not ?
Mr. Tamargo. That's correct.
Mr. KuNziG. I have no further questions.
Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions except to say that we are
grateful for people like Mr. Tamargo who are willing to serve the
Federal Bureau of Investigation in a capacity such as this man served
so ably.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Doyle?
Mr. DoYLE. Were there any men in the communistic group that
you were in who were other than Cubans or immigrants from other
countries? I noticed practically every name you gave seemed to be
of men with Cuban ancestry.
Mr. Clardy. He mentioned a woman's name, Kathleen. I won-
dered if that was an Irish girl.
Mr. Tamargo. She is Anglo-Saxon.
Mr. Doyle. Were there other Anglo-Saxons ?
Mr. Tamargo. There was others, but I don't remember the names ;
I can't identify them by name.
Mr. Doyle. About how many were in that Communist group that
you joined ; how many people?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, they had sometimes more or less, I believe,
about 60. They had sometimes more and more at other times. They
bring a bunch in, the next week the same bunch you don't see them.
I guess they didn't like it too much ; they didn't appear again.
Mr. Doyle. Did they hold meetings at which they discussed the
ways in which they could control the unions at union meetings? I
mean, did you folks as Communists hold meetings when you decided
what to do at union meetings ?
Mr. Tamargo. Well, sir, the idea all the time was to get as many
Communists as they could in union office to take the leadership of the
union and everytime they could get one to be president or shop steward
or secretary, they tried to get him in the union.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Witness, I know that you have appeared here at
some considerable inconvenience to yourself and possibly at some ex-
pense, which our Government may or may not be able to reimburse.
I am not sure, but 1 want you to know that the committee does ap-
])reciate, as Mr. Scherer has said, your sacrificing your time and your
energy and your intellect in helping your Government, both the FBI
and this committee.
We appreciate it very much, and we want you to know that we
shall not forget it. You are now excused. Call your next witness.
May I suggest to the audience, it is a rule of the committee that we
do not permit demonstrations of either approval or disapproval. I
am genuinely sorry that I touched a match to somethmg a little bit
earlier, but I would appreciate very much if you would refrain from
expressing your thoughts in this matter.
7396 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
I think I know where most good American citizens stand, so you
may take it for granted, we imderstand your feelings.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Fernandez.
Mr. Clardy. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Fernandez. I do.
Mr. Clardy. You will be seated. As I understand. Counsel, you
have been appointed at the suggestion of the president of the bar
association?
Mr. Eldred. Yes, sir. I am the chairman of the legal aid committee
of the Dade County Bar Association.
Mr. Clardy. I think we should make it very abundantly clear —
we try to every time, wherever attorneys appear on behalf of wit-
nesses before this committee — we don't want the public to draw any
unfair implications or any ideas that are unfounded, but in this case
particularly, we want to emphasize the fact that since you are more
or less an officer of the court, as we are up here, that you are appearing
to do something that we lawyers are bound to do when we are called
on.
Mr. Eldred. I might say, Mr. Congressman, I have been drafted.
Mr. Clardy. Yes; you have.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you state your name and office address?
Mr. Eldred. Quentin T. Eldred, 517 Security Building.
Mr. Clardy. Perhaps I may inquire, Counsel : Do you feel that
the short time you have had to confer with your client is adequate to
enable you to advise him on his constitutional rights, or do you have
some suggestion that we should listen to ?
Mr. Eldred. I would like to move, Mr. Congressman, that his tes-
timony and that of Mr. Kodriguez be postponed until in the morning,
at least. I haven't spoken to them 5 minutes, to be truthful.
Mr. Clardy. Having practiced law for pretty near 30 years, I know
the difficulty under which you operate, even when sometimes you have
months to confer with a client, and this is a trying condition.
If counsel have no objection, we will dismiss this witness and recall
him at 9 : 30 — not 10 : 30, 9 : 30 — tomorrow morning.
Mr. Eldred. Thank you.
Mr. Clardy. The other witness — Mariano Rodriguez, will you com-
municate with him, if he is not in the room at the moment, that both of
them are to appear at 9 : 30 tomorrow morning.
Mr. KuNziG. May we also say, Mr. Chairman, while we are on this
subject, that any witness who was not called today is continued over
until 9 : 30 a. m. That doesn't mean that you can go yet. We are not
through yet.
Mr. Eldred. May I take those two with me ?
Mr. KuNziG. Yes. Mr. Louis Popps.
Mr. Clardy. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Popps. I do.
Mr. Clardy. You may be seated.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you state your full name ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7397
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS JAMES POPPS
Mr. Popps. Louis James Popps.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Popps, where were you born ?
Mr. Popps. Melbourne, Fla.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you speak a little louder and as clearly as you
can because it is difficult to hear.
Mr- Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Melbourne, Fla., and when were you born ?
Mr. Popps. May 16, 1918.
Mr. KuNziG. 1918. You are then 36 years of age ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. I see that you are not accompanied by counsel. You
have a right to have an attorney at your side. Do you wish to be
accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Popps. No ; I don't.
Mr. KuNziG. Your answer is "No." You are satisfied to testify
without counsel ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Popps, where were you educated ?
Mr. Popps. In the public schools of Florida.
Mr. KuNziG. How far did you go ?
Mr. Popps. Ninth grade.
Mr. KuNziG. Where was that, what city or town ?
Mr. Popps. Deerfield, Fort Lauderdale, and Belle Glade.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you tell us a brief resume of your employ-
ment? Where have you worked since you finished school, the main
places.
Mr. Popps. For a while I was an ice-truck driver for Nathan Mack.
Mr. KuNziG. An ice-truck driver ? Where ?
Mr. Popps. Here in Miami for Nathan Mack and for a while I was
a delivery boy at a drug store here in Miami, and after that for the
Red Top Cab & Baggage Co. here in Miami as a driver of storage cars,
pickup and delivery service.
Mr. KuNziG. Driver for what ?
Mr. Popps. Storage cars, pickup and delivery for storage cars in
their storage garage.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you go to any other city ?
Mr, Popps. Then into New York — no, after that I was a sailor on a
private yacht to New York.
Mr. KuNziG. Wlien did you come back to Miami ?
Mr. Popps. In 1940, November— 1939, at least.
Mr. KuNziG. Wliat did you do here in Miami when you got back v
Mr. Popps. I worked for a while at Sears & RoebucK,
Mr. KuNziG. Then where did you go to work ?
Mr. Popps. Back to the Red Top Cab Co., same thing.
Mr. KuNziG. From there, where ?
Mr. Popps, To an apartment house, I think, in the northwest sec-
tion here in Miami.
Mr. KuNziG. Wliere did you work then? Did you ever work for
Pan American Airlines?
Mr. Popps. I started to work for Pan American Airlines in Janu-
ary 1943.
Mr. KuNziG. What work did you do for them?
7398 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. Popps. I was a porter, loading and unloading airplanes.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever in the Armed Forces of the United
States?
Mr. Popps. Yes, from 1949 in February — I mean 1945 in February
through November in 1945.
Mr. KuNZiG. Wliat service were you in?
Mr. Popps. I was in the Navy, served a while overseas.
Mr. KuNZiG. You were in the Navy ? Did you have an honorable
discharge ?
Mr. Popps. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, were you ever a member of the Communist
Party, Mr. Popps ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. When did you join?
Mr. Popps. Sometime in 1946.
Mr. KuNziG. That was after you got out of the Navy ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. You were not a member of the party when you were in
the Navy ?
Mr. Popps. No, sir.
Mr. KuNZiG. Who got you to join the Communist Party?
Mr. Popps. Charley Smolikoff.
Mr. KuNZiG. Charley Smolikoff. What was his position?
Mr. Popps. International director of the Transport Workers Union
of America, CIO.
Mr. KuNZiG. Why did he get you to join the party ?
Mr. Popps. I don't know why, but it happened at a meeting of the
section cleaners and porters and truck drivers and liandymen section
at the union hall. The discussion there stumbled around the eating
facilities at Pan American for Negro workers and it was handled kind
of wishy-washy by the chairman and I hit the floor about it and told
about the conditions there where we had to eat in the kitchen and
pretty poor conditions, while they had the air-conditioning, terrazzo
floors for the whites and at that meeting he said he would see what he
could do about getting comparable facilities for us to eat in, and after
the nieeting, he came over to me and told me that he was to the left of
left, if I knew what that meant.
Mr. KuNziG. He told you he was to the "left of left"?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. If you knew what that meant ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. What did "left of left" mean?
Mr. Popps. I can only tell you what happened following that and
you can judge for yourself.
Mr. KuNziG. All right, go ahead.
Mr. Popps. I saw him sometime later at the airport on his way out
to some place aboard a plane and he asked me if I would like to sub-
scribe to the Daily Worker, at least the Sunday Worker, which is a
paper. He said it might orientate me with the problems that con-
fronted workers and so forth, it would be very helpful to the workers.
I told him I didn't mind, and I gave him $1.50 and he asked if I
would like to join the Communist Party.
Mr. Clardy. Will you raise your voice a little?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7399
Mr. Popps. He asked also if I would like to join the Communist
Party, and I told liim I would, and sometime later he gave me a card
to sign and he gave me a party card.
Mr. KuNZiG. Did you pay dues?
Mr. Popps. To the Commmiist Party ? Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. How much?
Mr. Popps. About 35 cents a month ; the dues were based on your
earnings.
Mr. KuNziG. Based on your earnings. Now, what were the activi-
ties of the Communist groups with which you were connected ?
Mr. Popps. For a while in the trade miion club, the airline club,
we mostly discussed problems into the union itself since we all were
connected with airline work.
Mr. KuNziG. What other activities did the Communist Party have ?
Mr. Popps. Well, selling the paper, recruiting of members.
Mr. KuNZiG. Raising of funds ?
Mr. Popps. Well, probably, but not so much in our group.
Mr. KuNziG. Not so much in your group. Now, where were the
meetings held. Did you attend Communist Party meetings.
Mr. Popps. For a while at 730 West Flagler and then at other homes.
Mr. KuNziG. Was that the union hall ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. And where else?
Mr. Popps. At different one's homes.
Mr. KuNziG. Were they ever held in automobiles ?
Mr. Popps. For a while they were.
Mr. KuNziG. Why was that ?
Mr. Popps. Well, it was a fonn of security measure.
Mr. KuNziG. What did you do, just get in an automobile and pile
them in any have the meeting as you drove around?
Mr. Popps. Well, that was the way it was supposed to have worked
but we went through the stages of that but nothing much ever hap-
pened about meetings, just orientating us with the method of meeting
in automobiles.
Mr. Clardy. I can hardly hear you. Do I understand you to say
that you held meetings in cars because of security reasons ?
Mr. Popps. Yes, for security reasons ; yes.
Mr. Clardy. You were apprehensive, or the group became appre-
hensive that someone was about to discover and uncover them; is
that what you mean?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. How long did you have meetings in that fashion ?
Mr. Popps. Well, T only made a few meetings of that type.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Popps, can you recall the name of any person at
whose residence a Communist Party meeting was held ?
Mr. Popps. Dave Lippert's and at several other people's homes, I
know.
Mr. KuNziG. You went to Communist Party meetings at the home
of Dave Lippert?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know where that was, roughly?
Mr. Popps. Somewhere on 84th Street NW.
Mr. KuNziG. Here in Miami?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
7400 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. KuNziG. Wlien was that, to the best of your recollection ?
Mr. Popps. Somewhere in 1949 or 1950; 1949 — I imagine, the first
of 1950.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, were you ever connected with the city commit-
tee of the Communist Party of Miami ?
Mr. Popps. Yes, for a while.
Mr. KuNziG. What was your connection with the city committee of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Popps. To represent the airline group of that committee.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of that committee ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNZiG. Can you recall the names of any of the others who
were on the city committee of the Communist Party with you ?
Mr. Popps. Joe Carbonell, Bobby Graff.
Mr. KuNziG. Who was Bobby Graff ; will you identify him further?
Mr. Popps. That is a lady.
She is a member of the city committee ; that's all I know. The city
committee was composed of different groups of the Communist Party.
Mr. Clardt. a representative from each of the several Communist
groups ; is that what you mean ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you describe Bobby Graff, where she lived, or
where she worked?
Mr. Popps. I don't know her address or where she worked. She
used to live somewhere in the southwest section; I don't know her
address.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew her, of course, as a member of the Com-
munist Party and of the city committee of the Communist Party.
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. You mentioned Bobby Graff and Jose Carbonell.
Who else?
Mr. Popps. James Nimmo.
Mr. KuNziG. James Nimmo; was he a Negro?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. We have had him identified here before. Did you
know Leah Benemovsky ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Was she a member of the city committee ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you describe her further, and what her function
was?
Mr. Popps. I believe she was treasurer or some form of secretary.
Mr. KuNziG. Of the city committee. Do you know where she lives
or where she works ?
Mr. Popps. No.
Mr. KuNziG. During the period when you were a member of the
Communist Party, were you a member of any veterans' group ?
Mr. Popps. For awhile I was a member of the American Veterans
Committee.
Mr. KuNziG. Where?
Mr. Popps. Here in Miami.
Mr. KuNziG. Were any other members or people whom you knew
to be members of the Communist Party also members of the AVC?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7401
Mr. Popps. I think myself and Viclal were members.
Mr. KuNziG. Raul Vidal ? Who testified here today ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Give us the names of the people whom you knew who
were members of the Communist Party, oeing careful to name only
those, of course, whom you knew definitely to have been members from
your own personal knowledge — you met in secret meetings with them.
You mentioned Dave Lippert, Nimmo ; name the others. You can
look at any of your own notes, of course.
Mr. Popps. Emmanuel Graff.
Mr. KuNziG. You mentioned Bobby Graff.
Mr. Popps. Emmanuel Graff.
Mr. KuNziG. Who is Emmanuel Graff?
Mr. Popps. That is her husband.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know where he works or anything alx)ut him?
Mr. Popps. He is a painter.
Mr. KuNziG. Emmanuel Graff, a painter. Any others?
Mr. Popps. Myron Marks.
Mr. KuNziG. Who is Myron Marks?
Mr. Popps. I believe he handled the literature for the party, if I
remember correctly.
Mr. KuNziG. Any others?
Mr. Popps. Charles Smolikoff ; I named him before.
Mr. KuNziG. Charles Smolikoff, yes.
Mr. Popps. Jose Carbonell, Leah Adler Bemenovsky, Dave Spicy.
He dropped out sometime before I did ; so did Tom Early.
Mr. KuNziG. Dave Spicy and he dropped out, you say ?
Mr. Popps. Yes, so did Tom Early.
Mr. KuNziG. Who is Tom Early?
Mr. Popps. He works at Pan American and he joined the party
about the time I did and dropped out sometime following the first
congressional investigation here.
Mr. KuNziG, Dropped out following the congressional investiga-
tion of the House Committee on Un-American Activities here in 1948?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Why did he drop out ; do you know ?
Mr. Popps. I don't know his exact reason. He just
Mr. KuNziG. He just got out ?
Mr. Clardy. Was he a witness before this committee ?
Mr. Popps. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Who else ?
Mr. Popps. George Nelson.
Mr. KuNziG. George Nelson. He, of course, has been identified
here.
Mr. Popps. James Nimmo. Phil Sheffsky.
Mr. KuNziG. He has been identified before here today. ^Yho else ?
Mr. Popps. Ed Waller.
Mr. KuNziG. Ed Waller, who testified yesterday? Did you know
an Arthur Mallard ?
Mr. Popps. Yes. A. Mallard.
Mr. KuNziG. Who was he ?
Mr. Popps. He was employed at Pan American somewhere in the
hangars and he left employment some years ago. I don't know where
he moved to.
7402 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Mr. KuNziG. Can you remember the names of some of the groups,
the Communist Party groups here in Miami ?
Mr. Popps. The Airline group, Northwest, the trade union group.
Mr. KuNziG. The Northwest group ?
Mr- Popps. Business and professional group. That is about all I
can remember, offhand.
Mr. KuNziG. Those groups — you remember those names because
they had representatives in the city committee, I presume ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know any group called the Southwest group ?
Mr. Popps. I believe there was a group of that description.
Mr. KuNziG. How about the trade union group ?
Mr. Popps. Yes, there was.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, why did you yourself leave the Communist
Party?
Mr. Popps. Well, there were several reasons. The incident that T
actually went out on was a discussion with Dave Lippert about a trip
that I was supposed to take to New York to go to a school, and I didn't
want to go.
Mr. KuNziG. They wanted to send you to a special communistic
school ?
Mr. Popps. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. And you didn't want to go ?
Mr. Popps. No, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. When was this — about 1950?
Mr. Popps. Yes, 1950, and if I didn't want to go, they told me, "Well,
you can always tell how interested a person is in the party by the way
he contributes money to it," and asked me if I would make a contribu-
tion, and I told them I would, and I would do it on the pay day — Fri-
day, the following pay day — and something happened that Friday,
that I was short of funds. They shorted me in my check, and I
could not. I told them I was sorry I didn't have it.
Then sometime later, he saw me and told me they had been informed
that a group of us would be picked up for investigation, naming him-
self and me and some other person, and told me he was going to New
York and advised me to get a f eri*y flight out also, and I thought that
was a method of tiying to get me to go to New York to go to the school,
and since I was already on the verge of moving out, I didn't like the
method and at the time I told them to go tell them I am through with
the party and if anybody comes around to look for me, I will be living
at this address, and I wasn't going to start running and hiding, and
that I was finished.
Mr. ScHERER. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. No (Questions.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, the committee deeply appreciates your co-
operation and the helpful information you have given us. We know
it takes a considerable amount of courage and intestinal fortitude
to do what you have done.
Out of this hearing already, as you have heard today, some ideas
have been suggested to us for further legislation and some of the
things you have said have suggested some ideas to others and so the
committee wants to thank you for the help that you have given to
your Government.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA 7403
Tlie witness is excused.
Now, it is about time to adjourn. Before we adjourn, however,
there are a couple of things I want to call to the attention of those
here. If there has been in the audience, anyone identified thus far
by any of the witnesses, identified as a member of the Communist
Party, and desires to be heard, who wishes to deny the testimony that
has been presented identifying him or her as a member of the party,
I suggest that you get in touch with the staff, particularly with the
counsel for the committee.
We are hopefid that we will be able to conclude the hearings to-
morrow, so I suggest that this be done this evening, if there are any
of those who have been identified witliin the range of our voice and
desire to be heard.
Mr. KuNZiG. I have nothing further, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Clardy. The committee will stand in recess until 9 : 30 tomor-
row morning.
(Whereupon, at 4:30 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 9:30
a. m., Wednesday, December 1, 1954.)
INDEX
Individuals
Page
Abernethv, Milton 7336, 7354, 7361
Abernethy, Minna 7336, 7354, 7361
Adler, Leali 7300
Alonzo, Julio Sanchez (Red) 7391
Baker, Harvey 7299, 7300
Baker, Lois (Mrs. Harvey Baker) 7300
Benemovsky, Leah Adler 7300, 7400, 7401
Bentley, Elizabeth 7365
Bernard, Sylvia 7363
Bernstein, Leonard 7360
Blake, Dorothy Strausberg (Mrs. Joseph Franklin Blake) 7357
Blake, Joseph Franklin 7338, 7339, 7357, 7358
Boche, Frank 7369
Brautigam 7320, 7327
Browder, Earl 7330, 7338, 7367
Cantor, Emanuel 7336
Carbonell, Joe (Jose)— 7300, 7301, 7316-7325 (testimony), 7374-7377, 7400, 7401
Carr, Henry R 7325
Castile, Florence 7363
Casuela, Julio 7387, 7388
Chapu, Jesus 7393
Chase, Homer Bates 7301, 7305, 7313, 7314
Crouch, Paul - 7289
Cruz, Mirta 7390, 7391
Davis, Charles 7301
Davis, George - 7347, 7348, 7351
de Lamas, Leopoldo 7392
Diez, Frank 7302, 7390
Diez, Maria 7361
Dixon, Howard W 7316, 7378
Dow, Dorothy 7338, 7346, 7347
Early, Tom 7401
Eldred, Quentin T 7396
Feldman, Leah (Mrs. Philip Feldman) 7302-7304
Feldman, Philip 7302, 7304
Fernandez, Frank 7388, 7389
Feuchtwanger, Lion 7347
Frantz, Laurent I 7365
Frantz, Marjorie 7365
Freystadt, Hans 7336, 7361
Friedland, Eli 7362
Friedman, Bernie 7340
Gannett, Betty 7363
Garcia, Ophelia 7391
Goforth, Clarence 7363
Goodman, Rutsy Kirsch 7342
Graff, Bobby (Mrs. Emmanuel Graff) 7400,7401
Graff, Emmanuel 7401
Green, Paul 7326
Greenberg, Celia 7304, 7305
Hall, Sam 7340, 7358, 7360, 7363
Hernandez, Felicidad 7391
Hernandez, Joe 7391
1
3 9999 05445 4671 \
^ Page
Hirsch, Rose (Mrs. Samuel Hirsch) 7841,7360,7368
Hirsch, Samuel 7325-7336 (testimony)
7837, 7339-7342, 78r)8-7360, 7362, 7363, 7868
Hiss, Alger 7362
Hutchinson, Clara 7363
Jackson, Betty (Mrs. Dan Jackson) 7357-7359,7361
Jackson, Dan 7357-7359, 7361
Jehn, Frank 7305
Kirkpatrick, Rose 7305
Kirsch, Rusty 7342
Koenig, Ruth 7369
Lackner, John 7305, 7806
Lawson, John Howard 7846, 7347
Lewis, Robert 7362
Lichstein 7866
Liebold, Irving 7306
Lindian, Kathleen (Mrs. Saquina Lindian) 7392,7893
Lindiaii, Saquina 7393
Lippert, Dave 7376, 7399, 7401, 7402
Livingston, Grace 73(>3
Livingstone, Dave 7349
London, Jack 7380, 7384
Long, Ralph Vernon 7331-7838,7336-7371 ( testimony ), 7385
Mallard. Arthur 7401
Major, Mary 7363
Marks, Myron 7401
Moss, Gene 7340
Myers, John 7362
Muni, Paul 7846
Nelson, George 7805, 7306, 7313, 7814, 7390, 7401
Nickerson, Osa L 7306, 7307
Nimmo, James 7306, 7375, 7377, 7400, 7401
Norris, Esther 7307
Ornitz, Louis 7307, 7389, 7394
Osman, Jack ^ 7875
Petashnik, Nat 7347-7849, 7366
Popps, Louis J 7307, 7376, 7877, 7896-7403 (testimony)
Prensky, David 7807
Price, Mary 7364
Quill, Michael 7818
River, Wess 7346
Rodriguez, Alfredo 7388, 7389, 7392
Rodriguez, Lucas 7890
Rodriguez, Mariano (Mario) 7807,
7808, 7371. 7372 (testimony), 7388-7890, 7898, 7896
Rodriguez, Violeta (Mrs. Mariano Rodriguez) 7390,7898
Rosenberg, Myron Howard 7386
Rosenkrantz, Joseph 7808
Ross, Nat 7313, 7814, 7335, 7386, 7358, 7359, 7863
Sanchez, Gerado (sec also Sanders, Jerry) 7392
Sanders, Jerry (see also Sanchez, Gerado) 7392
Sapphire, Isador (see also Strong, Jack) 7308
Scales, Junius 7385, 7888, 7839, 7343, 7354, 7855, 7358, 7859, 7362, 7363, 7365
Scales, Vera Laycock 7341
Scheffsky, Philip 7308, 7375, 7401
Segal, Sara (Mrs. Ted Segal) 7375
Segal, Ted — 7375
Shantzek, Mike 7308, 7309
Sheiuer, Leo 7309
Shlafrock, Max (see also London, Jack) 7311,7375,7378-7386 (testimony)
Siskin, George 7368, 7369
Silvermaster, Nathan Gregory 7362
Smolikoff, Bertha (Mrs. Charles Smolikoff) 7310
Smolikoff, Charles 7291-7293,
7296-7298, 7806, 7809, 7310, 7813, 7814, 7874-7377, 7398, 7401
INDEX iii
Page
Soloman, Joe "^310
Spetia, Mario '''393
Spieey, Dave 7376, 7377, 7401
Strauss, Max 7310
Strong, Jack 7308
Temargo, Jose Dominuez, Jr 7386-7396 (testimojiy)
Thomas, Norman J330
Trencher, George 7310
Trencher, Ruth (Mrs. George Trencher) 7310
Trumbo, Dalton 7346, 7347
Valkov, Anatole 7362
Vidal, Raul 7310, 7324, 7379, 7401
Vidal, Ruth 7372,7373-7378 (testimony)
Wallace, Henry 7364
Waller, Edwin E 7289-7315 (testimony), 7319,7375,7401
Zilsel, Paul 7336
Zilzel, Howard 7368
Zuckerman, William 7311
Organizations
A. F. of L 7293, 7294, 7298, 7302, 7306-7308, 7389
Abraham Lincoln Brigade 7305, 7306, 7309
American Veterans' Committee 7355, 7400
American Youth for Democracy 7349
CIO 7293, 7294, 7298, 7300, 7305, 7308, 7347, 7389, 7393, 7398
CIO, Florida State 7290
Camp Beacon, N. Y 7362, 7363
Carolina Political Union 7330
Cigar Workers, A. F. of L 7302, 7303, 7307
Civil Rights Congress 7380
Communist Party :
Cuba-. , , 7320
Florida :
Dade County 7292, 7300, 7310
Miami :
Beach Club 7294
City Committee . 7400
Northwest section 7381
Professional club 7294
Trade union club 7293,7294
Youth club 7294
Georgia 7302, 7314
North Carolina :
Chapel HiU:
District committee 7338
Graduate club 7333
Student club 7338, 7352-7355
Workers club 7353
Dade County Bar Association . 7396
Demobilization Action Committee 7366
Duke University 7362
Florida Press Educational League 7318, 7379, 7380
Food, Tobacco, Agricultural and Cannery Workers of America, CIO 7290,
7299, 7305, 7306
Local 9 7290
General Services Administration 7382
Indeijendent Progressive Party 7364, 7365
Industrial Union, Marine and Shipbuilding Workers, CIO 7291
Industrial Workers of the World 7346
International Labor Defense 7380
International Workers' Order 7380
Jefferson School of Social Science 7364
Labor Canteen, Honolulu 7348
Laundry Workers Union, A. F. of L 7306
Leninist School of Social Science, Russia 7365
Miami Bar Association 7372
iv INDEX
Page
Miami Shipbuilding Corp 7374
Mobilization Organization Action Committee 7349
M. S. Construction Co., Miami, Fla 7382
National Federation for Constitutional Liberties 7380
Neighborhood Playhouse School of the Theater 7326
Pan American Airways 7307, 7308, 7310, 7373-7376, 7397, 7398, 7401
Shipbuilders Union:
Local 32 7299
Local 59 7313
Southern Conference for Human Welfare 7341, 7348, 7349, 7363-7365, 7380
Southern Youth Organization 7363
Transport Workers Union of America, 010 7291, 7308, 7376, 7393, 7398
Local 500 7308, 7375, 7393
United Construction Workers 7290
United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America, CIO 7363
United Furniture Workers of America, CIO 7291
University of California, Los Angeles 7346
University of Miami 7301, 7311, 7327
University of North Carolina 7325-7327,
7329-7333, 7335, 7337-7339, 7343, 7345, 7348, 7350, 7352-7356, 7361, 7362
University of North Carolina Marxist Study Group 7330, 7331
PtTBLICATIONS
Daily People's World 7338, 7346, 7347
Daily Worker 7338, 7346, 7376, 7392, 7398
Der Tag 7338
In Fact __ 7338, 7346
New Masses , 7347
Political Affairs 7346, 7347
Tar Heel 7330
Union Record, Florida 7290, 7291
c
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