HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY
©fit,
GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES
IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA— Part 2
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
MARCH 29, 30, AND MAY 3, 1955
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
INCLUDING INDEX
HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY
DEPOSITED BY THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
AUG 9 19Jo
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1955
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois
CLYDE DOYLE, California BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New Yorfe
JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee DONALD L. JACKSON, California
EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio
Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk
CONTENTS
Page
March 29, 1955, afternoon session : Testimony of —
Joseph Frank Preloznik 711
Michael J. Ondrejka (resumed) 715
John J. Killian 728
Gerald Rose 736
Mark Berman 743
Sidney D. Berger 753
Murray Wolf son 763
March 30, 1955: Testimony of—
James De Witt 770
John Gilman 782
George L. Sommers 790
Harry Virgil 799
Merle Snvder 798
Statement of Otis Daigle 808
May 3, 1955: Testimony of Darina Rasmussen 1 813
Index i
(The first part of the testimony of Michael J. Ondrejka, also heard on March
29, 1955, is printed in pt. 1 of this series.)
in
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEE
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, charac-
ter, and objects of un-American propaganda actvities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution,
and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any
necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session ) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
RULES ADOPTED BY THE S4TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be lected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress,
the following standing committees :
*******
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop-
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.
VI
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA— PART 2
TUESDAY, MARCH 29, 1955
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Committee
on Un-American Activities,
Milwaukee, Wis.
PUBLIC HEARING
The Subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, pursuant to recess, at 9 : 15 a. m., in the marble courtroom, Federal
Building, Milwaukee, Wis., Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle (chair-
man) , Edwin E. Willis, and Gordon H. Scherer.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel, and W.
Jackson Jones, staff investigator. ,
(At this point, the chairman of the subcommittee called the members
to order and then proceeded with the testimony of Michael J.
Ondrejka. This testimony is printed in part 1 of this series. The
subcommittee recessed at 12 noon and then continued with the testi-
mony printed herein at 1 : 30 p. m.)
AFTER RECESS
Mr. Doyle. The committee will reconvene and the record will show
that all of the three members are present.
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Joe Preloznik, will you come forward, please ?
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God %
Mr. Preloznik. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please be seated.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ?
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH FRANK PRELOZNIK
Mr. Preloznik. Joseph Frank Preloznik.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you spell your name, please, Mr. Preloznik ?
Mr. Preloznik. P-r-e-1-o-z-n-i-k.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside, Mr. Preloznik ?
Mr. Preloznik. In Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Milwaukee ?
Mr. Preloznik. All my life with the exception of the time I spent
in the Navy.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your present age ?
711
712 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Preloznik. Twenty-nine.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
your educational training has been ?
Mr. Preloznik. Eight years of grammar school, 3% years of high,
and 2V2 years at Marquette University, in prelaw.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you take your work at Marquette in pre-
law?
Mr. Preloznik. From the years 1950 to 1953. It wasn't continuous.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, in calling this witness I have not
done so with any thought or any belief or any information that this
witness has ever been a member of the Communist Party, but I want
to ask him the question under oath.
Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Preloznik. No; I definitely have not been a member of the
Communist Party at any time.
Mr. Tavenner. The reason for calling you, Mr. Preloznik, is that
your name was brought before the committee in the last few minutes
of the testimony of Mr. Ondrejka and I propose to have Mr. Ondrejka
return to the witness stand after asking you a very few questions.
Mr. Ondrejka told the committee that he was called in and advised
to get in touch with you and see that you ceased your studies at the
labor school at Marquette University.
When were you attending the labor school there ?
Mr. Preloznik. I attended the Marquette Labor School, which
holds evening sessions and is separate from the prelaw education
which I was getting at Marquette from the period of 1950 to 1953. I
didn't attend all of the sessions during those years, but off and on I
was attending the labor school.
Mr. Tavenner. "What was your purpose in taking this course at
Marquette University ?
Mr. Preloznik. The Marquette Labor School offered courses on
bargaining agreements, procedure, parliamentary law, public speak-
ing, all things which would be beneficial to someone who is in the labor
movement and especially to one who is in the official capacity in a
union.
Mr. Tavenner. As a young man in your union were you endeavoring
to take advantage of this opportunity to improve yourself along the
lines that you have just mentioned ?
Mr. Preloznik. Yes ; definitely so.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware of any desire on the part of any
of your associates in the field of labor that you should not attend that
school ?
Mr. Preloznik. Yes ; the international representative at that time,
Phil Smith, raised objections to my attending the Marquette Labor
School with the president of our local.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what reason he gave, if any ?
Mr. Preloznik. The reasons were that the approach they have is
strictly for business and it would do nothing to promote the labor
interests that we had in our shop.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed at the time that you were
attending this labor school ?
Mr. Preloznik. Well, off and on I was working full time in the
shop and other periods of that time I was working as financial secre-
tary of the local and attending school under the GI bill.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 713
Mr. Tavenner. What shop was that ?
Mr. Preloznik. The Allen-Bradley Co.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed at the Allen-
Bradley Co.?
Mr. Preloznik. I have continuous service at the Allen-Bradley Co.
since 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. During that entire time were you a member of the
union in that shop ?
Mr. Preloznik. I was a member of that union from 1947 until 1953.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that local 1111 of the United Electrical, Eadio,
and Machine Workers of America ?
Mr. Preloznik. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you, during that period, rise to any position of
leadership in your union ?
Mr. Preloznik. Yes, I was a steward, vice president and financial
secretary of the local. I was also a delegate to the 11th district council
which convenes 4 times annually and also a delegate to the convention
on 3 separate occasions.
Mr. Tavenner. You have told the committee that you were never
a member of the Communist Party. I would like to ask you whether
you attended any meetings, Communist Party meetings, which you
knew were Communist Party meetings ?
Mr. Preloznik. No, I definitely did not.
Mr. Tavenner. In light of your answers to these questions I am
not going to ask you to speculate on who may have been members of
the Communist Party and who were not. because of the fact that by
your own testimony you have disqualified yourself from giving direct
testimony on that subject; but I want to ask you whether or not you
did, during the course of your membership in that union, come to the
conclusion that there were Communists in that union?
Mr. Preloznik. Yes. I felt that way although I had nothing to
substantiate it, and that was one of my reasons for breaking; I felt
that the organization was devoting more time to the political future
and political ideologies than it was to the working conditions and to
the needs of the people in the shop.
Mr. Willis. I do not want to cut in, but I want to follow you. You
said "that was one of my reasons for breaking." What do you mean
by that?
Mr. Preloznik. One of my reasons that I resigned as financial sec-
retary of the local.
Mr. Scherer. You not only resigned as financial secretary, but you
dropped your membership ?
Mr. Preloznik. No ; I did not drop my membership.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever drop your membership ?
Mr. Preloznik. I didn't drop it. They dropped me. What we felt
was that UE was not representing the people as it should be and we
attempted to organize a CIO organization within the shop. When
they discovered this aspect of it, they refused to accept my dues among
others.
Mr. Scherer. In what year were you expelled by the UE ?
Mr. Preloznik. That was in the fall of 1953.
Mr. Scherer. Investigation by this committee proves that your as-
sumptions were correct.
714 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether in the
early days of your work within that union you had the support of
persons you later found out to be members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Preloznik. Yes; I had the support of people who have been
named before this committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Did a time arrive when you felt there had been any
change in attitude on their part toward you and your leadership in
the union ?
Mr. Preloznik. Yes, and that arose in 1952. I think it best to pre-
sent an overall picture of UE, which at one time represented 500,000
workers and now represents less than 100,000. This characterized a
weekness that was prevalent not only in our local but throughout the
country, and consequently, our local wasn't able to bargain and nego-
tiate in the manner that it had previously. We were never given com-
plete details on the losses that UE had been taking, or the financial
status of the union. We were always led to believe that our union was
still growing and that it was in terrific financial condition.
Subsequently, I found out that these things were untrue ; and what
worried me in the shop was when the union was forced to make con-
cessions that it never had in the past, and when I queried the officers or
the international representatives on this situation I received no coop-
eration and no assistance. I didn't have the answers.
I was in a confused state primarily because I didn't have the facts
that are being presented to the committee here about the Communist
Party apparatus and how it has manipulated into organization and
controlled it. Consequently, hindsight now gives me a much better
view of what transpired then.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you opposed to any effort of control by the
Communist Party of the activities of your union ?
Mr. Preloznik. I was never in a position to know. At no time dur-
ing my history with UE did I ever know of anyone in UE as being a
party member.
Mr. Scherer. You just had strong suspicions from their conduct?
Mr. Preloznik. From their conduct.
Mr. Scherer. And the policies that they advocated insofar as the
administration of union affairs ?
Mr. Preloznik. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. They followed the party line as you understood the
party line ?
Mr. Preloznik. Well, an illustration of that is when I attended a
district council meeting in Chicago. The chief steward from one of
the shops out there went to the Warsaw Peace Conference, or one of
those trips abroad, and he also made a trip into Kussia. He gave a
completely one-sided picture and an illustration of that was that he
was traveling in a Kussian plane from Poland to Kussia and he
noticed that there were no safety belts, and he queried the stewardess
about the fact that there were no safety belts. The stewardess gave
him the reply that "This is made with the good, sound trade labor.
It isn't made under the capitalistic system, and consequently, there is
no room for imperfection in the mechanization of the plane, so there
is no need for a safety belt."
Well, from that you can draw an assumption, but certainly nothing
that you could fight tangibly with.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 715
I was in the position where I resigned quietly because I did not
have the facts with which to combat something like that.
Mr. Scherer. Did anybody believe what he said ?
Mr. Preloznik. No. I was sort of nauseated with the comment and
I made a comment to that effect to the president of the local, and he
more or less agreed with me that it was a little ridiculous.
Mr. Tavenner. That is all I have to ask this witness, Mr. Chair-
man.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Willis ?
Mr. Willis. No.
Mr. Doyle. Have you any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No. Although this witness has been on the stand
only a few minutes, I think he has contributed much by his testimony
to the theme that I think our counsel is trying to develop in this hear-
ing. I think he is to be congratulated for coming forward and testify-
ing.
Mr. Doyle. I agree with you and I had planned to do so on behalf
of the committee.
Before I do that, very briefly may I say that your picture of the
awareness of the Communist conspiracy trying to get control of labor
unions wherever they could is the picture we have discovered all over
the country. Eight along with their policy in trying to infiltrate and
get control of the labor unions is the fact that they place the interests
of the Communist Party ahead of the union always. In other words,
the Communist Party becomes dominant in the affairs of the union,
not the union affairs ahead of the others.
Thank you very much and I want to compliment you on getting
your education wherever and as fast as you can. You younger Ameri-
can men and women ought to take advantage of night classes in Mar-
quette or any other university and get all the schooling you can.
Your country deserves you as educated men and women. Thank you
very much.
Mr. Preloznik. You are welcome.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Onclrejka, will you return to the stand, please?
TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL J. ONDREJKA— Resumed
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ondrejka, you have told us about the efforts
made to establish or at least the agreement to establish a cell of the
Communist Party at the place where you were employed.
Immediately after that period, which I believe was in 1952 — am I
correct that that was in 1952 ?
Mr. Ondrejka. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned to any particular group of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Ondrejka. No, I was not, as I alluded to this morning. I
worked in some of these front organizations. I was still active in
Labor Youth League until it died of its own, and the same with
Young Progressives of America. My contact was with the South
Side division, Gerald Rose or also Jerry. The reason I was in such
close contact with him was that in addition to being head of our South
Side cell he was also head of the cell that my wife was in and also
spent some time at our home.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you say that the name was Gerald Rose ?
716 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Ondrejka. I have always known him as Jerry, but in the tele-
phone book it is Gerald.
Mr. Tavenner. Jerry and Gerald are one and the same person ?
Mr. Ondrejka. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your next
assignment was to a Communist Party group or cell ?
Mr. Ondrejka. At the beginning of 1953 there were two things
going on in the house simultaneously. I will probably finish with the
first and then we can devote ourselves to this last problem.
That was the fact that at that time they had set up a series of
classes on a party divisional level. Jerry Rose introduced me to the
education director and introduced him to me as the name of Rudy.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the last name ?
Mr. Ondrejka. Jerry Rose only introduced him as Rudy. He did
not give a last name. From January 1953 possibly for a few months
they had a small class in my home on Sunday mornings. That was a
divisional level. Jerry was divisional leader of the South Side so
possibly there was one from each division. There were 4 girls attend-
ing these classes on the divisional level.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of all the persons who
attended this school on the divisional level as you spoke of it?
Mr. Ondrejka. The ones that attended those classes were Lily Rody
Ondrejka, Phyllis Waldman Berger who is the wife of Sid Berger,
whom I testified to this morning, Evelyn Silverstine, who was the wife
of Ted Silverstine, and Mary Lee Phillips whom I had not identified
previously. For further edification she was one of the members of
the West Allis women's group cell. Her husband, Jimmy Phillips,
was an organizer who went underground in 1951.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean an organizer of the Communist Party?
Mr. Ondrejka. That is right, one of the organizers who went under-
ground in 1951.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did those classes last ?
Mr. Ondrejka. They went on over a period of several months. I
know when they came in because I would have to watch my child so
my wife could attend this class. I was in the kitchen. They were in
the other room. I didn't hear all the classes which they were develop-
ing. I happened to run across one of their study outlines which I
brought along today. That was study outline number 3 based on sec-
tion 1 of the report to the Communist Party, Soviet Union by Malen-
kov. They would do their studying from pages 5 to 30 from the
pamphlet, On the Threshold of Communism.
The reason they held these classes was they would come up with
study points. In this there are 23. Those would be the^ basis on
which the groups would have their discussion at the following meet-
ing.
A typical point for discussion at the next meeting would be, "Sum-
marize the Economic Trends in a peace camp led by the U. S. S. R.
and the imperialistic camp led by the United States," or "Has the war
economy been for prosperity, good times for the American people; in
particular how do the American billionaires try to bribe the American
people with war orders and so forth."
Another sample question : "What have been some of the aggressive
acts not only in the case of arms but also in the United Nations by
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 717
the United States." This is the type of thing they set up at these
meetings. This happens to be on of them.
Mr. Doyle. Is there not any reference there to a study of the United
States Constitution or any of the United States Government pro-
grams? Is there anything complimentary or directing the study of
our own American form of government on any of this literature ?
Mr. Ondrejka. In all of the classes I was in I can definitely say it
was the same procedure. It was continual praise of either the Eastern
democracies or People's China, or the Chinese volunteers of North
Korea, or the defense of the Koreans by themselves where the United
States was always labeled as being imperialistic.
Mr. Doyle. In any class which you attended, as in the Communist
Party or the YPA or Labor Youth League, did you ever see anything
in writing or hear any declaration orally made by any of the leaders
urging the young people whom I assume were all American born to
study about their own Government, to study the American Constitu-
tion, to support it ?
Mr. Ondrejka. The only reference that I could answer you with as
to the American Constitution is when they insisted that the Govern-
ment, the courts, the Congress and what have you were violating the
Bill of Rights or the freedom of speech, or so on, insofar as it applied
to a Communist. Other than that I have never heard anything con-
structive or in praise of this country. Everything has been a con-
tinual declaration against this country, where the evils were, without
any effort to be constructive criticism. Like this film I showed you
that the Bill of Rights is being violated but there was no study of our
Constitution or principles or anything else.
Mr. Willis. Yesterday Mr. Eisenscher said that while he wouldn't
expose and expound his views before this committee lie would freely
do so on the street corners, and he seemed to be advocating unbridled
license without sanction.
Was there any discussion during those meetings that Mr. Eisenscher
could have so expressed himself on the street comers of Moscow in
favor of democracy and be free from sanction or criticism or arrest ?
Did they ever try to compare the two systems ?
Mr. Ondrejka. Xo, 1 have never heard such comparison. I would
only like to add that as for my own sake it is a little sickening to see
>eople under the guise of something else to deny their communis-
tic ties and then speak on the street corner under the guise of being
Americans and fighting for something else, and at the same time they
will speak before TOO people and say one thing and get them in front
of a body where they are under oath and they don't have guts to say
what they said 071 the corner, and they refuse to say that.
Mr. Willis. I think you have put your finger on it. To me it is
hot such a mark of bravery to appear before a committee of Congress
and talk about not wanting to talk under compulsion or before a com-
mittee which is in itself a factual evidence of contempt. They have
their own ideas about that. That is not so brave. That is good prop-
aganda.
We seek cooperation from those people and I think they miss the
point. I think they should quote just a little bit more of the truly
great liberal Justice Holmes when he said quoting, I think, Voltaire:
"Freedom of speech begins with your right to disagree but defending
with your life your right to say." And I think Christianity itself im-
718 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
poses certain sanctions and not flaunting of licentiousness. We do
have a right to impose laws on obscenity and I think it is obscene on
the Constitution itself to see the performance of some of these wit-
nesses before committees of Congress.
I feel that you want unbridled license and temerity to come before a
committee of Congress and say "I refuse to testify before you but I
reserve my right to lambast you on the street corner."
That is not bravery. That is destroying or trying to destroy the
very Constitution that they seek to have protection under.
Mr. Scherer. There is just one little difference. Here they are
under oath and out on the street corner they do not face the penalty
of perjury.
Mr. Willis. But you do not have to be under oath to be honest,
and I think Mr. Eisenscher demonstrated that he was not completely
frank when he invoked the fifth amendment, when at the same time
he said he would not fear to express himself elsewhere, but he seeks
the protection of fear against incrimination only when he appears be-
fore a committee of Congress.
That is not bravery, and it is less than honesty.
Mr. Doyle. May I make one observation. Of course, I heartily
agree with my distinguished colleague from Louisiana, Mr. Willis. I
think what you said, Congressman Willis, is well illustrated by Mr.
Eisenscher's conduct yesterday. He pleaded the amendment and then
after I had dismissed him from subpena he withdrew from his pocket
that which he had several copies of all the time — a prepared state-
ment for the press. He did not have the backbone to present that
statement to this committee during the time he was testifying. It was
full of lies and falsehoods and misrepresentations, and he knew it.
He did not have the guts to produce it in public where we could ques-
tion him about it.
That is the custom ; that is the habitual custom of the Communists
in this country.
For instance, one of the statements in there was that this committee
was trying to destroy union labor, organized labor, and he knew it was
a lie.
I am making this frank statement because I want this group in the
courtroom, and I want him if he is here again, and any of his Commu-
nist friends in the room, and the students that are here from Marquette
University — and I see several of them and I am glad they are here —
to know that we would have welcomed yesterday a chance to have this
man that we know to be a Communist present that statement to us
and let us get a chance to answer it. He did not have the guts or the
gumption to do it.
That is what you call freedom of the press and freedom of speech.
He was afraid to produce it so we could answer it truthfully.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ondrejka, I notice that the 15th of the items
for discussion in this study outline is compare the policies of the Soviet
Union and the United States toward the countries defeated in World
War II.
May I ask you as to this and the other topics here which you may not
have actually heard discussed in this meeting, whether or not it was
the practice in the Communist Party to handle subjects of this kind in
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 719
such a way as to reflect upon the foreign policy of the United States,
but always support the Communist policy of the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Ondrejka. There is absolutely no question about that. Every
country in Eastern Europe was now a democracy and in our classes,
in our pamphlets and everything else, like especially after China went
over to the communistic side, there were pamphlets; the Turnabout
in China was one sold in the bookstore.
The eastern countries in Europe were now democracies. They would
compare to what they had before and to the western countries, but
the eastern countries were always set up as a good example of what
democracy is.
Mr. Tavenner. I notice that the 21st point is that Victor Perlo, an
economist, estimated that a program for peace could immediately pro-
vide j obs. Do you know Victor Perlo ?
Mr. Ondrejka. I do not, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Has he to your knowledge been before any Commu-
nist Party group in this area ?
Mr. Ondrejka. I could not say, sir. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Victor Perlo is the head of what was known as the
Perlo group of the underground in the city of Washington back in
about 1934 which group has been brought to light and exposed by
the work of this commitee.
Mr. Ondrejka. In line with what you have just said the only other
thing that I have picked up at the house is the official Communist
Party publication for Wisconsin known as the Viewpoint. You are
speaking of what that would provide. It says "Peace dollars versus
war dollars." They say so many million dollars will buy one bomber
or so many homes; so many destroyers or so many old-age pensions.
That is in line with what we said this morning about changing our
viewpoints regarding disarmament.
The other point is this thing Mr. Scherer alluded to yesterday in
regard to the Rosenbergs and how they use an incident like that to
knock down your own country. They speak there :
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg stand as real working-class heroes, among the
bravest and noblest people of all time. Tbey scorned to become perjurers under
threat of death, and died unflinchingly and unafraid. They live on in the hearts
of all decent people, whose faith in humanity is stronger by the example of their
principled courage.
In every nation hatred of American imperialism now reaches a new pitch as
the big-business rulers of the United States reenact the crimes of Hitler. And
here in America this new deadly threat to our civil liberties * * *
That is the type of thing we got in these publications. This is the
official publication of the Communist Party.
Mr. I )< »yle. What is the date of that publication ?
Mr. Ondrejka. July 1953, sir, issued by the Communist Party of
Wisconsin.
Mr. Doyle. That is pretty recent.
Mr. Scherer. Of course, they completely ignored the record in the
Rosenberg case.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I wish to offer in evidence the study
outline No. 3 produced by the witness and ask that it be marked
"Ondrejka Exhibit No. 2," for identification purposes only, and to
be made a part of the committee files.
Mr. Doyle. It is so ordered.
720 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. I also offer the bulletin entitled "Viewpoint," the
July 1953 issue, and ask that it be marked "Ondrejka Exhibit No. 3,"
for identification purposes only, and to be made a part of the com-
mittee files.
Mr. Dotle. It is so ordered.
Mr. Ondrejka. The thing I have not mentioned are the names of
the West Allis Women's Club. The members of that cell were Bernice
Edelstine, who was chairman of that cell; Lily Body Ondrejka; Betty
Trokan, and Mary Lee Phillips. So that would bring us now to
January 1 of 1953.
At that time the South Side division leader of the Communist Party,
Jerry Rose, came to my home, took my dues for 1953 and told me that
I was about to be assigned to another active group. He told me that
the person that was going to contact me was Agnes Slater. There was
no contact made until February 20 or February 22 of 1953 at which
time I was told to be at the home of John and Gloria Killian that
morning.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall now how you received that
information ?
Mr. Ondrejka. I think I received the information from Jerry
Rose himself.
Air. Doyle. What day of the Aveek was that I
Air, Oxdrejka. It was a week day. I don't remember exactly what
da3>- it was,
Mr. Doyle. Were you not working on the job ?
Mr. Ondrejka. I was, sir. I had many meetings that were going to
follow. I went immediately from work in the morning, but as to the
actual date it wouldn't matter because I worked 11 to 7 every night,
At this meeting there was John Killian, Gloria Killian, Agnes
Slater, myself, Jerry Rose, and Ted Silverstine in his capacity as
youth coordinator of the party.
Jerry Rose did the speaking at this meeting. He mentioned the
fact that both John Killian and I were doing creditable jobs in Allen-
Bradley plant. At this time we both were stewards, and he felt that
there had to be a coordination of our activities in the plant, and
therefore, at this meeting we had set up a cell.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that not the same thing that Mr. Killian had
told you quite some months before ?
Mr. Ondrejka. A year previous ; that is correct, sir. He told us at
that time that he and Ted were not to be members of that cell. He
was the South Side division leader, but in addition to the 4 of us, John
Killian, Gloria Killian, Agnes Slater, and myself, there was a fifth
whom he was not going to disclose at that time, and on February 20
or 22 of 1953 was the formal organization of the Allen-Bradley cell.
The prior year any activities at the Allen-Bradley plant would be
gotten straight from Jerry Rose by word of mouth.
One thing, for instance, where Jerry Rose came to my home to
discuss a matter with me is this : I had decided in 1952 that for the
1953 election it was time that there be some opposition within the union
because the people weren't voting, and because the very same man
ran for president unopposed except for one time. I had attempted
to get Joseph Preloznik, the man that just testified before me, to run
for president of the union, and I had told the union president that if
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 721
Joe wasn't going to run, I would run for the purpose of having some
opposition to create interest in the election.
At that time in 1952 Jerry Rose came to my house, took me for a
ride, which is very common — we often discussed things while riding
in his car— and told me that it would be wrong for me to run against
Herman Kenny. He did not bring up the question of the non-Com-
munist affidavit. He felt that it would have to raise issues — the only
way to run a campaign was to create issues. That is the type of activ-
ity between the South Side division and the union at that time.
At that time we had an Allen-Bradley cell composed of these 4 plus
the unannounced fifth.
In February and March of 1953 I had conducted a tax service in
locall 1111 union office. It was while I was doing this tax service
during the noon hours that one of the employees of local 1111 would
come out to my table where I was doing the tax work. As this person
ate lunch I would be questioned as to various phases, such as the Korean
war. I would be brought into that subject and asked who I thought
was responsible, and I immediately surmised that it was the series
of questions in regard to my reliability as a party member, so I know
at that time was the first report I had ever made about this particular
person as being suspected of being the fifth Communist in our group.
Around March 1 of 1953 Jerry Rose, who was not an employee of
the Allen-Bradley Co., who was in no way connected with local 1111
but who is the South Side division leader of the Communist Party,
walked into that office without knocking, and when he came in I was
sitting there and looked up and it was as though I slapped him across
the face as he recoiled and immediately composed himself and asked
if this person was in the union office. He sat with this person at the
union office for about 15 minutes and he left.
In April 15 of 1953, give or take a couple of days, at a cell meeting
Ave were told by John Killian, who was the chairman of my cell that
he had discussed the matter with Jerry Rose and I believe the bundle
of the special edition of the May Day Daily Worker that we were to
take was 100 and the reason why he would have discussed this Avith
Jerry Rose was this : When we set up this cell all activity was to funnel
down from Jerry Rose to the chairman of the cell. He was to meet
weekly with the South Side division leader in order to prepare an
agenda which was a written agenda.
On this particular occasion we had decided to send a copy of the
special edition, the May 1 edition of the Daily Worker, or the May
Day edition of the Daily Worker to all the stewards. At that time
Ave chipped in, the paper itself was paid for out of funds from the
group, the Allen-Bradley cell, but the postage was to be made up by
members of the group. I paid my postage that morning.
At the end of this meeting I had told John Killian that I would be
glad to sit there the rest of the morning with him, that Ave might go
through a telephone directory and get the names of the stewards so
that we would have a mailing list to send them to. He said, "that isn't
necessary because I will go to the union office and get them from one
certain individual." Pie said to me, "In case you didn't knoAv it this
individual is the fifth member of our cell," and he asked if I Avas sur-
prised; and the reason I remember is because he asked that question
and I said, "No, I suspected it the day Jerry Rose was in the office."
C:;70fi— 55— pt. 2 2
722 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. The person whose name he gave yon as being the
undisclosed member of your cell was actually the person that Rose had
visited in the union office ?
Mr. Ondrejka. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You have not mentioned the name of that indi-
vidual ?
Mr. Ondrejka. I do not mention this person's name because of the
fact that I was told by Jerry Rose at the first meeting it was an un-
disclosed fifth. I was told by John Killian who the member was but
because of the fact that this member worked on days while we held
our meetings at 8 o'clock in the morning, John Killian said that he
would take the agenda which was written, plus the discussion notes
that resulted from the meeting and he would go down early in the
afternoon before work and brief this individual on it.
Now, I distinctly remember many times where the following week
Agnes Slater was dropped from our group because of the fact that now
this individual was a formal member that I knew of.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that the undisclosed person ?
Mr. Ondrejka. So we dropped Agnes Slater to keep it in a group
of four, and at subsequent meetings we would discuss who was present.
He would say his wife had to go somewhere, she wouldn't be there
and this undisclosed person could not be there. I would say Gloria
Killian absent for such and such, undisclosed person cannot be there
because of work. That is the way I wrote my reports.
Mr. Tavenner. And the reason you are not giving that name is
that the only way you can identify that individual is through hearsay
testimony of John Killian ?
Mr. Ondrejka. And Jerry Rose. I had given you the name and
you had said you preferred to take it up in executive session whereby
this undisclosed person can answer in that hearing rather than pub-
licly.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you given this information to the staff?
Mr. Ondrejka. I have, sir. As to this May Day meeting, at the
subsequent meeting of our cell I had agnin attempted to help them
along because for one thing I wanted to know the name of who the
Daily Worker was going to, the special edition, and I had asked if
I could help type the plain wrappers because they never sent the May
Day edition so you could see the sides. It was put in a plain wrap-
per and the name was put on.
He said "There is no need for you to help because Gloria can whip
those out in a few minutes with the list." Whether he had a list or
not that was what he told me.
Mr. Tavenner. You have no knowledge of your own that they were
actually mailed?
Mr. Ondrejka. I do not, sir. The only thing I know is that at
that time, same period of time, my wife's cell also had a special edition
of the Worker May Day edition and I mailed hers for her, but I
don't know what became of the money we put in for postage or who
John Killian sent those to.
Mr. Tavenner. Back at the time of the organization of this par-
ticular cell of the party, I am not sure that you told us who was chosen
as the chairman.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 723
Mr. Ondrejka. I am sorry. John Killian was chosen as the chair-
man and Gloria was the other officer because it would be far easier
for them to get together.
Mr. Tavenner. John Killian and his wife ?
Mr. Ondrejka. That is correct, sir. Anyway, until May there ac-
tually wasn't too much activity and then, of course, we were involved
in contract negotiations. There was trouble. In the contract nego-
tiations we didn't know if there was going to be a strike or not, and at
the time we held a series of meetings, many of the meetings being
between John Killian and myself at his home because Gloria at that
time I think started to work and Agnes had been dropped from our
organization, and of course the undisclosed one couldn't be there.
The type of thing to do was, for instance at that time it was de-
cided that the way to get control of the union was not through the
officers itself but to have a committee set up. What they had at-
tempted to do was to have many committees, legislative committee,
educational committee, welfare committee and so on within the union
itself. It was our job to get on as many committees as possible. John
Killian immediately got on the legislative committee and as head of
each committee was one of the members of the executive board of
local 1111.
At this particular meeting John told me the method he had used
and how they had gotten around the member of the executive board
who was Dody Marino. She was not connected with the Communist
Party. She was an executive board member and head of the legis-
lative committee. He became head of that committee and the people
on the committee didn't come, so actually it operated as a committee
of one who was John Killian.
He also told me how he went to Madison with James De Witt or
Jimmy De Witt, whom I named earlier as not a Communist but as
a labor representative. He said Dody got tired of waiting so she went
back to Milwaukee on the bus, so he and De Witt went in to repre-
sent the local on the matter. It didn't matter if no one came to the
meetings.
He was to gain control of the committee and the policy of the Com-
munist Party was to be carried out on that level rather than on an
upper level.
Some of the other things that happened there is that I now refer to
not a meeting at John Killian's home but a meeting at my home. This
meeting again was attended by the youth coordinator of the party, Ted
Silverstine, as well as the South Side division leader, Jerry Rose.
Mr. Tavenner. What group was this ?
Mr. Ondrejka. This was the Allen-Bradley cell once again. They
came to my house, and there were many things under discussion, one
of which was that the youth coordinator of the party insisted that
simultaneous with our cell that they operate a labor youth league
and his reasons for having the same were as follows.
Mr. Tavenner. That doesn't mean a youth group league of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Ondrejka. At this time you know the Labor Youth League had
taken over the duties of the youth of the party, but at the same time
did not carry that banner of the Communist Party. At that time John
and I were in a series of discussions to set up a young group within the
724 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
local itself, more or less on the order of a social group, but to get them
more active in unionism which was the good end in itself because the
younger people didn't care about the unions, didn't attend meetings
or anything else.
But Ted Silverstine, the youth coordinator of the party activities
of the youth said at that time, if that is all you are interested in is
getting people active in the union without teaching them communism,
you are wasting your time. That was the party reaction as far as how
much merest they had in labor.
At that time I insisted that the time was not ripe for a Labor Youth
League there because at that time the Labor Youth League was de-
clared subversive by the Attorney General's Office, but I was overruled
and its was decided that there was to be a labor youth league.
The second part of this meeting concerned the same individual that
testified just before I did, Joe Preloznik. Joe Preloznik was already
out as financial secretary and he had transferred from the day shift to
the night shift. At that time I was having a lot of contact with him,
and both John Killian and Jerry Eose made it quite clear that they
were slightly alarmed by the situation, and that it was now my duty to
go into that shop and publicly repudiate Preloznik in any shape or
manner whatsoever. They told me in no uncertain terms what the
party reaction was toward Joe Preloznik, the fact that they had much
information to denounce him ; they swore at him at that meeting, the
same man that they had helped some years before. They said he was
an FBI agent because of the fact that he was approached by the FBI,
which he immediately related to his union president and made no
secret of the fact that he was visited by them.
They insisted that he was an FBI man and I had to lay off of him
as far as social contact. I told them at that time that I thought they
were wrong. I would not repudiate the contract, and we left the meet-
ing with nothing accomplished because I refused to go into the shop
and smear this man.
During the following period not only did Jerry Rose work on me
regarding this Preloznik matter, but he would go to my home and
visit my wife after 11 at night and tell her what her responsibilities
were regarding my shop.
Once you have something like that starting in a shop, you have the
whole Communist Party involved also. He spent from that time on
until I was out of the party telling my wife to work on me, what her
obligation was to break up such a contact with a CIO man.
I knew from that time that it was the beginning of the end as far
an I was concerned with the Allen-Bradley and that association.
We still held meetings. I did attend a CIO steelworkers' meeting
in possibly August of 1953.
Now, I knew it was going to cause trouble because of the dissension
in the shop. I thought that the CIO was going to take that plant. I
was told on a Monday morning if I wanted to attend that meeting
that night to observe the thing.
I did attend that meeting but I left myself one out. That is the
fact that before I went to the meeting I told my wife I was going
to the meeting, why I was going, to protect the interests of the Com-
munist Party, that if the other group came in John Killian would
still be in the UE and I would have a finger on Joe in the other
situation.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 725
It so happened that the movement to break the UE was crushed,
but the day after I had attended this meeting Jerry Rose came scoot-
ing up to my house very anxiously about the situation, and I ex-
plained to him why I had gone there. I brought my wife into the
room to explain that I had told her about it, that it wasn't done as a
secret, and from that time on until November I was engaged in a
series of discussions with the South Side division leader, Jerry Rose,
whereby he was attempting to show me what party line thinking was
on matters like that.
One of the meetings was held at my home, one was held at the
Mitchell Street coffee shop. Several of them were held in his car.
I had held the position and I knew I couldn't switcli it at that
time because there was a lot of dissension in the union. People were
aware of the fact that it was a Communist union. I could not see
why the Communist Party could not operate as effectively in some
other union that the people wanted than in the UE.
At the time, he told me that, "it was contrary to party thinking, it
was independent thinking because the UE is our union." That is a di-
rect statement by him. and, "if you are critical of the leadership," he
said, "so is the party critical of the leadership in this plant, but it is the
duty of John Killian and yourself to set up such a broad base on the
bottom level that it would not matter who were the officers of the
union."
And at that time he cited to me a perfect example of how, when
Communists use proper thinking, follow party line thinking on labor,
that works out; and he cited to me the example of Ford's local 600 in
Detroit. He had told me that at that time Reuther and his labor-
breaking raiding bunch went into the Ford local, pulled out the leader-
ship and put in their own administrative body.
Mr. Tavenner. I might say that that was just a day or two after
the completion of our hearings with reference to local 600.
Mr. Ondrejka. I did not know that, sir, but I know that happened.
But he said, and these are the words of Jerry Rose : "In spite of
Reuther's attempt to split that union because of the fact that there was
good party line foundation on the bottom levels," that he was, "com-
pletely ineffective and they held the same power they held before
that t*ime."
These discussions continued until November. I could not possibly
turn on the man because I knew my effectiveness as an FBI agent was
long since over. I took it on the basis that I was not changing my
viewpoint on the matter, so on one particular morning in November
we went for a long ride and went through all this again.
I told him that he may be right, but in my own mind I thought I
was right.
He told me they felt they had no choice but to drop me from the
party. At that very morning when I was dropped, he said, "Mike,
there is no question about security that you could possibly be an FBI
agent," which is certainly reasonable in view of my own family con-
nection, but he said, "we cannot tolerate such independent thinking
on the part of any member."
He told me that I was to go back into the shop. I was to introduce
the steward that would replace me, take him to the members, tell the
members that I made a mistake, that the UE was the only union.
726 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Secondly, I was to do a public repudiation of Joe Preloznik and on
that basis they would determine whether I got into the party.
I was not going to repudiate an innocent man and that was the end
of my activities, other than because of my family relationship I was
still able to gather information for the FBI, but certainly not on the
same basis as before.
Mr. Tavenner. That ends your work in the Communist Party?
Mr. Ondrejka.- That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When did it first become known publicly that you
had been in the Communist Party for the Federal Bureau of Inves-
tigation ?
Mr. Ondrejka. On November 17 or 18 of 1954.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that at the time that you were presented as a
witness ?
Mr. Ondrejka. No; it was not, sir. It was 2 months before that.
It was at that time that I was presented with a summons and complaint
for a civil action here in Milwaukee, that being my wife's divorce
action.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you told her of your activity ?
Mr. Ondrejka. That is correct, sir. When I was filed with the
papers I called up for counsel to the proper body, and that night I
told her of my activity and the fact that I would have no choice but
to counterclaim with an allegation, as the allegation now is.
Mr. Tavenner. We do not want to go into that.
Mr. Ondrejka. She was aware of it, and at that time I gave it to
the parties that are interested in breaking up the Red conspiracy at
Allen-Bradley.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Congressman Willis ?
Mr. Willis. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Doylej May I ask the witness this question : I have never dis-
cussed it with you. I have no idea of what your answer is going to be,
sir.
Under Public Law 601, which you have heard me mention briefly,
this committee is charged with going into all questions with reference
to possible remedial legislation in this field of subversive activities. I
am asking you frankly to give us the benefit publicly of any thoughts
you may have as to the functioning of this sort of a committee by the
United States Conress.
You have been here for 2 or 3 days working with our investigators to
a certain extent ; you have been questioned by our distinguished counsel
and by us.
Have you any suggestion to make in the field of legislation or con-
gressional procedures for the benefit of your own country?
Mr. Oxdrejka. I would like to say this, sir. Certainly I am no ex-
pert on the matter, but I do have one opinion and that is this : I believe
that the Internal Security Control Act of 1950 whereby Communists
will have to register as Communists — it is my opinion that when these
people have to go out into the shop regardless of what position they
hold, steward, officer, and anything else, and it is disclosed that they are
Communists, they are going nowhere because the average American is
not going to take that stuff knowingly.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 727
It is easy enough for them to address 700 or 5,000 people at a meeting
and deny that they are a Communist, that they are just good liberals.
Then when this law becomes effective they are going to disclose what
they are and people will know.
As far as I am concerned, between the Smith Act and the Internal
Security Control Act we have good legislation except for the fact that
the one act has to be tested in the Supreme Court.
In regard to the congressional committee, I have never appeared
before one and as far as my treatment is concerned, I was glad that I
could appear under oath and certainly my treatment has been fine.
May I say one thing under oath ? There has been a lot of rumor, and
it is part of this Communist attempt to discredit. There have been a
lot of other attempts through their leaflets. I am not concerned with
those, but there has been the underhanded way of saying "Did Mike re-
ceive a $2,000 bribe for coming out in the open publicly." If somebody
would ask that question if I received a $2,000 bribe I would appreciate
it now.
Mr. Doyle. I will ask you now.
Mr. Ondrejka. You are asking me the question and I now state un-
der oath, that the only amount of money ever received was 6 days lost
pay for the time I testified in the Federal case in Chicago, and anv at-
tempt by any other person to make it $2,000, $2,500 or $1,000 or $500
is nothing but an attempt to discredit me, and I say let that man come
under oath and state where he got that information.
Mr. Doyle. I am going to ask you one more question. I think yes-
terday a couple of those witnesses may have had you in mind, Mr.
Eggleston ; possibly they had him in mind. too. Both these men whom
we believe the record shows to be Communists pleaded the fifth amend-
ment, too, which is their privilege provided they did it in good faith
and necessarily ; which we do not think they did.
What is your motive? Why did you, as a young American, turn
against the Communist Party ? Why did you go into the association
with the FBI and expose the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Ondrejka. I went in because of the fact at that time when
the FBI agents talked to me they mentioned the need for someone
with the type of background I had that they felt could easily work
himself into the party. I know that once I was in, there was no ques-
tion, and having lived the type of life I have lived, in the close personal
contact because I have lived communism day in and day out it was
nothing to sit down at our table and brag about the fact that the
North Koreans were driving our troops out of Korea.
I can see now where it was one of the wisest decisions I ever made.
Mr. Doyle. Have you any other questions ?
Mr. Willis. Yes, I would like to ask one question, and you brought
it out yourself. You said that you have been testifying under oath
which, of course, is true. With no implications whatsoever, especially
the rumblings that you talked about and the accusations that might be
hurled upon you because of your action in going to the FBI and
testifying here today, I ask you this question: You know that you
are under oath and you know the rules of being under oath, do you not ?
Mr. Ondrejka. I certainly do.
Mr. Willis. You have made some accusations and you have detailed
those accusations and you have given time, place, circumstance, names,
occasions, homes, clubs, and elsewhere identifying and naming these
728 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
people. I understand that some of them may be in the audience or
may be called upon to testify here.
Now, I say, realizing as you do that if you have lied you are sub-
ject to perjury, that I think it is a grand opportunity for those people
whom you have named to come forward and denounce you and let us
and the courts decide who is telling the truth. Are you willing ?
Mr. Ondrejka. I welcome the opportunity for those that have de-
nounced me in these past months to take the stand and say that it is
a lie.
Mr. Willis. I will say if they are clean and they do not, they are
missing a good chance.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Ondrejka. As chairman of this com-
mittee I want to say that if there are any of you folks in this room
who have been named by this gentleman as a Communist, we will
give you the opportunity to come forward promptly to deny it. Of
course, you are going to have to submit yourself to cross-examination.
We would not give you that opportunity and have you turn around
and plead the fifth amendment.
In other words, if any person within the hearing of my voice or
otherwise wants to come forward in good faith and face the com-
mittee and give us a chance to question him about a denial, if he
makes it, of this young man's testimony or any other witness' testi-
mony we will not be like Mr. Eisenscher. We will open the book
and let the facts fall where they belong.
I want to thank you, young man, for your cooperation with your
own Nation. You have rendered a great service. I hope you will
place your native ability, which is very manifest, in the interests of
our country as contra-distinguished from the Communist conspiracy
and totalitarian form of government.
Mr. Ondrejka. I thank you.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Tavenner, your next witness ?
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. John J. Killian.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Killian, will you please raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Killian. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN J. KILLIAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
M. MICHAEL ESSIN
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ?
Mr. Killian. John J. Killian.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel.
Will counsel please identify himself ?
Mr. Essin. Counsel for Mr. Killian is M. Michael Essin, attorney,
623 North Second Street, Milwaukee 3, Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Killian ?
Mr. Killian. I was born in Milwaukee, Wis., on October 15, 1925.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Killian. I now reside in Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived in Milwaukee all your life ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 729
Mr. Killian. Except for my years of military service in the United
States Army and for the time when I was a student at the University
of Wisconsin Law School in Madison, I have always resided in
Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you in the United States Army ?
Mr. Killian. I was in the United States Army from April 1944
until June of 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there anything about your service you desire to
tell the committee ?
Mr. Killian. No, sir ; except that I was very glad to serve my coun-
try and I learned a great deal, especially from my overseas service of
some 18, 19 months.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your educa-
tional training has been ?
Mr. Killian. I attended parochial grammar school in Milwaukee,
public school, and I attended 3 years prelaw training at the University
of Wisconsin in Milwaukee, and I attended for 2 3Tears the law school
of the University of Wisconsin in Madison.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you terminate your work in the law school
at Madison ?
Mr. Killian. In August of 1950, to the best of my recollection. I
attended the summer session and I don't recall exactly when the term
ended.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether on the campus at Madison
there was an organization known as the Young Progressives of
America %
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Sir, I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
I invoke the fifth amendment,
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question, please.
Mr. Killian. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Willis. Young man, I do not know you and we seek coopera-
tion. You could do us and yourself and your country a lot of good
if you were frank with us and answered these questions. I think you
would be put in a better light in your own community. Do you not
want to reconsider that question ?
Mr. Killian. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. After completing your legal training at Madison,
Wis., did you return to Milwaukee ?
Mr. Killian. Yes, I did, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. In what business did you engage on your return ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Sir, I would like to point out that 3-011 made a mis-
statement inadvertently. I did not complete my legal training.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you used the word ''terminate," however,
maybe we misunderstood you.
Mr. Killian. When I returned to Milwaukee in September of 1950
I was unemployed and looking, seeking employment for a period.
Mr. Tavenner. For how long a period were }ou seeking employ-
ment?
Mr. Killian. To the best of my recollection perhaps a month.
Mi-. Tavenner. Then what employment did you obtain?
Mr. Killian. I was hired by Briggs & Stratton Corp. as a stock-
room worker.
730 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed by that organiza-
tion?
Mr. Killian. To the best of my knowledge about 9, 10 months, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. That would bring you up into the year 1951, I
believe?
Mr. Killian. It would, sir ; close to it.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment?
Mr. Killian. My next employment, I believe, was with the Seaman
Body Division of the Nash-Kelvinator Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed by that company?
Mr. Killian. Approximately 3^, 4 months when I was laid off.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the reason for that; do you know?
Mr. Killian. I was laid off, sir. There was a cutback in employ-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment?
Mr. Killian. I was unemployed for a period.
Mr. Tavenner. How long a period ?
Mr. Killian. I don't recall exactly, a matter of weeks and the next
place I was employed was at the City Services Oil Co.'s warehouse.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed by City Service?
Mr. Killian. A matter of perhaps 5 or 6 weeks.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment?
Mr. Killian. I was again without employment for a period ; a very
short period, and my next employment was with the Badger Paint
Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed by that company?
Mr. Killian. Two or three weeks to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment \
Mr. Killian. My next employment was wtih the Allen-Bradley
Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. When did that employment begin ?
Mr. Killian. September of 1951.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you still employed by Allen-Bradley?
Mr. Killian. I am, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What has been the nature of your duties there?
Mr. Killian. I am engaged in the fabrication and assembly of metal
enclosures for the switches which are made there.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Allen-Bradley engages in de-
fense work for the United States Government ?
Mr. Killian. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Since September 1951 when your employment be-
gan at Allen-Bradley, have you been a member of the union which
had bargaining rights at that plant ?
Mr. Killian. Yes, I have, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What is that union ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. The union is local 1111, UE.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you belonged to that union prior to your em-
ployment at Allen-Bradley?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. No, sir ; it is impossible.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you elevated to any position within your
union ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 731
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Sir, I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask would it incriminate you, in your judgment
if you told the truth as to whether or not you became an officer of
your union ?
Mr. Killian. Same answer, same reason, sir.
Mr. Scherer. He has already opened the door. He said he was a
member.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Killian. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Scherer. The witness is clearly in contempt, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. We will let the record speak.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a document and
ask you to examine it, please, and state to the committee what it is?
(Document handed to witness.)
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Sir, this purports to be an affidavit of a non-Commu-
nist union officer.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date on which the oath was taken in
that affidavit?
Mr. Killian. I quote from the document, sir: "Ninth day of De-
cember 1952."
Mr. Tavenner. What office was it for which the affiant prepared
the affidavit?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Sir, I am reading from the document and it does
not appear that any specific office was indicated.
Mr. Tavenner. I think that is correct. Will you read the body of
the affidavit into the record ?
Mr. Killian. I now read, and quote from the document. Do you
wish me to begin ?
The undersigned, being duly sworn, deposes and says :
1. I am a responsible officer of the union named below.
2. I am not a member of the Communist Party or affiliated wtih such party.
3. I do not believe in, and I am not a member of nor do I support any organi-
zation that believes in or teaches the overthrow of the United States Govern-
ment by force or by any illegal or unconstitutional methods.
Local 111, United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America (UE),
United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America (UE).
Mr. Tavenner. What is the name of the affiant as shown by this
document ?
Mr. Killian. I continue to read from this document, "John J.
Killian."
Mr. Tavenner. What address is given ?
Mr. Killian. "1233 South 17th Street," I read from the document.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you live in December 1952, Mr. Killian?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. At 1233 South 17th Street, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the signature of the name appear-
ing there and state whether or not it is your signature or a facsimile
thereof ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Sir, I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
I invoke the fifth amendment.
732 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to introduce the document in evidence and
ask that it be marked "Killian Exhibit No. 1," and that it be incor-
porated in the transcript of the record.
Mr. Doyle. It is so ordered.
Ktllian Exhibit No. 1
united states of america national labor relations board
AFFIDAVIT OF NONCOMMUNIST UNION OFFICER
(See instructions on reverse)
The undersigned, being duly sworn, deposes and says :
1. I am a responsible officer of the union named below.
2. I am not a member of the Communist Party or affiliated with such party.
3. I do not believe in, and I am not a member of nor do I support any organi-
zation that believes in or teaches, the overthrow of the United States Gov-
ernment by force or by any illegal or unconstitutional methods.
Local 1111, United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America (UE)
United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America (UE)
(Signature) John J. Killian,
(Address) 1233 S. 17th St.,
Milwaukee 4, Wise.
(The notary public or other person authorized by law to administer oaths must fill in
completely all blank spaces below.)
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 9th day of December 1952.
A notary public or other person authorized by law to administer oaths and take
acknowledgments in and for the county of Milwaukee, State of Wisconsin.
My commission expires November 15, 1953.
SONYA K. ESSIN.
[seal]
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Killian, as properly read by you this affidavit
states : "I am not a member of the Communist Party or affiliated with
such party."
Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not on December 9,
1952, you wTere a member of the Communist Party or affiliated with it?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Sir, I cannot be compelled to testify against myself
and I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. The affidavit which you read further states that
The undersigned deposes and says : I do not believe in, and I am not a member
of nor do I support any organization that believes in or teaches the overthrow
of the United States Government by force or by any illegal or unconstitutional
methods.
On December 9, 1952, w7ere you a member of any organization that
believed in or taught the overthiwv of the United States Government
by force or any illegal means or unconstitutional methods ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. I cannot be compelled to testify against myself. I
thereby invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Of course, that affidavit is made under oath, is it not,
Mr. Counsel?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Subject to pains and penalties of perjury.
(Witness conferred wTith counsel.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 733
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. What is the statute of limitations on perjury, Mr.
Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Three years.
Mr. Scherer. In view of the testimony of Ondrejka, and in view of
the refusal of this witness to answer on the grounds that it will in-
criminate him, I am going to move in executive session that this tes-
timony be referred to the Department of Justice for prosecution for
perjury.
Mr. Doyle. I think the other two members of this subcommittee,
Mr. Scherer, will join you and we will all recommend to the full com-
mittee at Washington that this matter be referred to the Department
of Justice to find out who is lying.
Mr. Scherer. There is no question who is lying.
Mr. Doyle. Someone is and I do not think it was Ondrejka.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Killian, while employed at Allen-Bradley plant
were you aware of the existence in that plant of a cell or organized
group of the Communist Party ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. That is, composed of employees in that plant?
Mr. Killian. Sir, I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you not in fact the chairman of the Commu-
nist Party cell ?
Mr. Killian. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Located within that plant?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with an individual by the name
of Joe Preloznik?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Sir, I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I request that the witness be di-
rected to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, especially in view
of the fact that I have seen you in the courtroom all day with your
counsel, sitting close by the front so you must have seen the gentle-
man when he was testifying. I direct you to answer.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. I may remind the witness in that regard that coun-
sel for the committee announced when the witness, Joe Preloznik, was
called, and you may not have heard it, that he had no information
indicating any former Communist Party membership on the part of
Mr. Preloznik, and he was asked the question and denied that he had
ever been a member of the Communist Party. Therefore it is a little
difficult for me to understand why you now contend that to answer a
question as to whether you knew him might tend to incriminate you.
Mr. Killian. Could you please restate the question before the
committee, sir ?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you go back and read the question to him as
to whether or not he knew the gentleman ?
(Question read by the reporter as above recorded.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
734 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Killian. Sir, do you intend by your question to ask me whether
I knew him through my employment in the plant at Allen-Bradley
prior to today ?
Mr. Doyle. The gentleman has already asked you the question.
That is what he has asked you.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Sir, I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Willis. Mr. Chairman, have you ordered him to answer the
question ?
Mr. Doyle. I will again order him to answer the question.
Mr. Killian. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask you to turn around and look at the third
man to the right of the gate there. Please do that.
Mr. Scherer. Stand up, Mr. Preloznik.
Mr. Doyle. Will you look at that gentleman ? Are you acquainted
with him ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Same answer to the question as before, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Killian. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Willis. Young man, we are not trapping you or fooling you.
Why do you not reconsider that question ?
Mr. Schere. Mr. Tavenner has given him opportunity to answer it,
has explained it to him. If he wants to, in view of that, subject
himself to contempt we cannot go any further than we have gone.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Willis. I meant to say to reconsider his position on this ques-
tion and others.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. May I state here that I think I am correct and my
colleagues agree with me? There is only one narrow area within
which a witness is justified legally in claiming the fifth amendment
privilege against self-incrimination. I will read it. This is "when
a witness fears that his truthful answer will place him in immediate
danger of criminal prosecution." That is as the committee members
understand the law to be.
Mr. Killian. Sir, I must consult counsel.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Sir, after consideration and consultation with counsel
I reaffirm my previous decision to refuse to be forced to testify against
myself.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, you heard the testimony today of Ondrejka.
Is any part of the testimony given by Ondrejka to this committee
false?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. Sir, I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Is any of the testimony of Ondrejka as it specifically
relates to you false ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. The same answer, sir. I invoke the fifth amendment,
Mr. Scherer. Is the testimony of Ondrejka as it relates to you true ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 735
Mr. Killian. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Scherer. You heard his testimony today, did you not?
Mr. Killian. Yes, I did, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there any explanation that you desire to give of
the factual situation which Mr. Ondrejka presented to the committee
insofar as it related to you ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. In answer to the question of the committee counsel
I again invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. You just have nothing to say ?
(Counsel conferred with witness.)
Mr. Killian. Is that a question, sir ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, I think it is a rather obvious comment. Are you
now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Killian. I cannot be compelled to testify against myself. I
invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the
time you gave the non-Communist oath under the Taft-Hartley Act I
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. I cannot be compelled to testify against myself. I
invoke the fifth amendment,
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party at any time ?
Mr. Killian. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Scherer. When you made that affidavit to which Mr. Tavenner
referred, were you telling the truth ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Killian. I invoke the fifth amendment. I cannot be compelled
to testify against myself.
Mr. Doyle. Are there are questions, Congressman Willis?
Mr. Willis. How old are you ?
Mr. Killian. Twenty-nine years of age, sir.
Mr. Willis. Are you married ?
Mr. Killian. Yes, I am, sir.
Mr. Willis. Do you have any children ?
Mr. Killian. I do, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Congressman ?
Mr. Schiirer. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. May I just say this to you as the father of American-
born children, as one American to another, why do you not get out of
the Communist conspiracy and support the Nation that gave you birth
instead of being a party, which we believe you are, to the Communist
conspiracy which is abroad in the world ? This is no time for me to
lecture to you. I do not mean that, but for God's sake get out of it.
Do something to strengthen your country instead of weakening it.
The witness is excused unless counsel has some other questions.
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. Doyle. We will recess for 5 minutes.
(Witness excused.)
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will reconvene. The record will please
show that the committee reconvened and the full membership of the
subcommittee is in their places.
736 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Again I want to thank the audience for your cooperation in being so
quiet and helpful.
Call your witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Gerald Rose, will you come forward, please?
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Rose, will you please raise your right hand and be
sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Rose. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF GERALD ROSE, ACCOMPANIED BY EDWARD H.
SNYDER, COUNSEL
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Rose. Gerald Rose.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record ?
Mr. Snyder. Edward H. Snyder, 739 North Broadway, Milwaukee,
Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Rose, are you also known by the name of Jerry
Rose?
Mr. Rose. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Rose?
Mr. Rose. I was born in Milwaukee April 25, 1925.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Milwaukee ?
Mr. Rose. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived in Milwaukee all of your life ?
Mr. Rose. All of my life except for the period when I was in the
Army, for a period of time when I was at school and for 2 short
months I was out of town.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the period when you were in the Army ?
Mr. Rose. I was in the Army Air Corps from August 31 or August
20, 1943, to November 2, 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you serve overseas ?
Mr. Rose. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. In what theater ?
Mr. Rose. In the Mediterranean theater.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cational training has been ?
Mr. Rose. Grammar school, high school, sir. I received my B. A.
from the University of Wisconsin.
Mr. Tavenner. What year did vou receive your B. A. degree ?
Mr. Rose. In 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you at the University of Wisconsin
as a student ?
Mr. Rose. I was in Milwaukee at the University of Wisconsin exten-
sion from 1946 to, I believe, the early part of 1948. Then I trans-
ferred out to the University of Wisconsin at Madison.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any form of employment other than
around the campus while you were in attendance at the University ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. Yes. That is, in Madison, sir ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 737
Mr. Rose. Well, what sort of employment do you mean ?
Mr. Tavenner. I am asking you. If I knew, it probably would not
be necessary for me to ask you.
Mr. Rose. I did work as a waiter for a while on campus.
Mr. Tavenner. I said other than on the campus.
Mr. Rose. Yes. I was washing trucks for a while off campus and
during summer vacations.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any other employment during that
period of time besides what you have told us, whether you were paid
compensation for it or not ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I refuse to answer that question since I cannot be com-
pelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer that question, Witness. Cer-
tainly Congress is entitled to check on your identity, and you are testi-
fying. You know best what you were doing in those years. For the
purposes of identification and other purposes, we believe we are en-
titled to have your honest, frank answer. Therefore, I instruct you to
answer that question.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. The same answer, sir ; the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Rose, I have before me an excerpt from the Mil-
waukee Journal, date of July 8, 1949, the title of which is, "University
of Wisconsin Reds Expel Member. Group Denies Actions Linked to
State Ouster of Blair." The date line is Madison, Wis. Then we will
read:
Expulsion of the University of Wisconsin student from the Communist Party
for a display of white chauvinism was announced Friday.
Do you recall anything about that incident, Mr. Rose ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I refuse to answer this question since I cannot be com-
pelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. The next paragraph of the article reads :
Gerald Rose, spokesman for the student section of the Dane County Communist
Party, disclosed the action but refused to name the student.
You are referred to here as the spokesman for the student section
of the Dane County Communist Party. Were you a member of that
section at that time ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. On your return to Milwaukee, after the completion
of your studies in the University of Wisconsin, how did you become
employed ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mi-. Rose. To the best of my recollection, I believe I worked for a
trucking company for a few months at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment ?
Mr. Rose. Then I got a job at International Harvester.
Mr. Tavenxer. Your next employment ?
Mr. Rose. This is to the best of my recollection. I worked for the
HeilCo.
M r. Tavenner. How long did you work there ?
Mr-. Rose. I believe it was only for a few days, sir.
63796—55 — pt. 2 3
738 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment ?
Mr. Rose. The Louis Allis Co.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you work there ?
Mr. Rose. Several months, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When did your employment terminate, about what
date?
Mr. Rose. Well [referring to notes] let me check here. Do you mind
if I figure that out, sir ?
Mr. Doyle. You are entitled to refer to your written memoranda if
you cannot remember where you worked and want to refresh your
memory. Go ahead.
Mr. Rose. As to the dates, sir. Would you repeat the last question
in relation
Mr. Tavenner. My question was, When did that last employment
terminate, about what date ?
Mr. Rose. At Louis Allis ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Rose. That was approximately in January of 1952.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment ?
Mr. Rose. I then went to Nash Aircraft.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed there ?
Mr. Rose. I believe it was until September or October of that
same year.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment ?
Mr. Rose. At the Harnischf eger Co.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed by that company ?
Mr. Rose. Into the beginning of 1953 I guess.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment ?
Mr. Rose. Then I went to work for Grede Foundries.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed there ?
Mr. Rose. For approximately a month.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment ?
Mr. Rose. I was unemployed for a period of several months.
Mr. Tavenner. By choice or because you were unable to get work ?
Mr. Rose. I was unable to get work.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you engaged in any other work during that
period when you were unemployed ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I refuse to answer that question since I cannot be com-
pelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct the witness to answer the last question.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I again invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment after your one-
month employment at Grede Foundries ?
Mr. Rose. I believe, sir, I worked for Plankinton Co.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you work there ?
Mr. Rose. About a month, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment after that?
Mr. Rose. I then got employment at the Express Freight Lines.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you there more than a month ?
Mr. Rose. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How many months ?
Mr. Rose. I believe it was about 2 or 3 months.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 739
Mr. Tavenner. Then what was your next employment ?
Mr. Rose. I got a job at Cudahy Packing.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed there ?
Mr. Rose. Well, from that period of time —
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. How many months ? That is a good way to phrase it.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I was employed at the Cudahy Packing for about 13, 14
months, sir.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. When did your employment terminate ?
Mr. Rose. Just a second. During that period of time I was laid
off, although I still carried my seniority at Cudahy.
Mr. Tavenner. When did your employment terminate at Cudahy ?
Mr. Rose. I believe it was February of this year, sir, or January,
the latter part of January.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us, please, why your employment was
of such brief duration in all these many instances, except the last that
you gave us, over such a relatively short period of time ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. In a number of cases, I was laid off for lack of work. In
other cases I was told that my work was unsatisfactory.
(Witness confers with counsel. )
Mr. Rose. And also a couple of places I quit to get a better job.
Mr. Scherer. Were you doing any particular work for the Com-
munist Party, were you carrying out any assignment with respect to
these various places by which you were employed ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. Will you restate that question, please ?
Mr. Scherer. I think you had better read the question.
(Question read by the reporter.)
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I refuse to answer this question since I cannot be com-
pelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Is the real reason that your employment was of such
duration because of the fact that you were assigned a specific job to
do at these plants for the Communist Party rather than for the reasons
you stated ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I invoke the fifth amendment on this question, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Did you use the name of Rose at all of these plants
that you told us about ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever us any other name at any other time?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. No.
Mr. Scherer. Is Rose your correct name ?
Mr. Rose. Yes, it is.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your employment after February 19 of
this year ?
Mr. Rose. Well, I was unemployed for a few weeks.
Mr. Tavenner. Then what was your next employment after that?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
740 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Rose. I became employed at American Motors, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you still employed there ?
Mr. Rose. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Rose, during the course of the testimony here,
Mr. Ondrejka identified you as having been just a few years ago the
South Side division leader or director of the Communist Party in
the city of Milwaukee. He has also advised this committee of your
activity in the formation of a Communist Party cell and the giving of
directions with regard to the formation of the Communist Party cell
at Allen Bradley plant in the city of Milwaukee.
He has also advised us that you gave him certain directions with
regard to a person by the name of Joe Preloznik, in that Mr. Ondrejka
was expected to go back into the union and discredit Mr. Preloznik.
He has advised us that you told him that the Communist Party line
was to support the UE, that the UE was your union, meaning the
Communist Party union.
I want to give you this opportunity to tell the committee whether
there is any part of that testimony which is untrue.
(Wintess confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, you were the South Side
division leader of the Communist Party, were you not ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You did organize the Communist Party in the com-
pany that I mentioned, that is, the Allen Bradley Co.?
Mr. Rose. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Are you still a member of the UE Union?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Were you ever a member of the union?
Mr. Rose. No.
Mr. Doyle. I cannot help but notice, witness, that you consulted
with your counsel before you said no.
Mr. Scherer. Were you ever a member of the UE?
Mr. Rose. I answered that question, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I don't recall. I said, "are you a member of the UE
today ? " Now, were you ever a member of the UE ?
Mr. Rose. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You have stated that you are not a member of UE.
Are you a member of the Communist Party at this time?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I refuse to answer this question, sir, since I cannot be com-
pelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Willis. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Rose. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. Witness, you have invoked the fifth amendment to
almost all of the significant questions that have been asked you, claim-
ing that to answer these questions might tend to incriminate you.
Now, as I told two of the previous witnesses, the 83d Congress passed ;
a law which gives to this committee with the approval of the Federal
court the right to grant immunity. In other words, this committee
can say to you that you shall not suffer any penalty of any kind whatso-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 741
ever if you testify and answer the questions we ask you. Now, if this
committee should grant you immunity, and I am inclined to think
that maybe you are one of the witnesses to which we might grant im-
munity, would you then answer the questions that have been asked you
today and to which you have pleaded the fifth amendment?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. Sir, when that situation arises, I will meet it then.
Mr. Scherer. By pleading the fifth amendment, you tell us that the
only reason that you are not answering these questions is because
you fear some possible action upon the part of the authorities which
may deprive you of your liberty, that you may incriminate yourself
in some way. Now, if that is removed, why can't you tell us now
whether you would answer those questions ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. I am not asking you to answer the questions now.
Mr. Rose. I will answer the question at the proper time, sir.
Mr. Scherer. You will answer our questions if we should grant
you immunity ? Is that what you mean ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. Well, when that situation arises, sir, where you will give
me immunity, I will answer that question at that time for you.
Mr. Scherer. Then you will decide at that time whether you are
goinjr to answer the questions or not ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Is that what you mean ?
Mr. Rose. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Your answer now indicates to me then that you are
not invoking the fifth amendment in good faith [Witness conferred
with counsel] because the only thing you say in invoking the fifth
amendment is that you fear criminal prosecution. Why can't you say
now, if that fear is removed, not only the fear removed but the actuality
of prosecution removed, whether you will answer these questions ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I refuse to answer this question, sir, under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I just repeat then that it must be obvious to all of us
that you are not invoking the fifth amendment in good faith.
I have no further questions.
Mr. Dotee. I would like to ask the witness something about the
fifth amendment. You seem to be or claim to be familiar with it. At
least you stand on it, but you only quote one sentence in connection
with it. What else is in the fifth amendment besides this one sentence
that you have used ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. What else is in the text of the fifth amendment?
Mr. Rose. Well, as far as I know, there is the question of that an
individual is, all individuals are, entitled to due process of law.
Mr. Doyle. What else?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. I am not asking you to ask your attorney what is in it.
Maybe he does not know all of it.
Mr. Rose. It contains a number of things. I am not familiar with
those other things, sir.
742 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Doyle. Let me read it to you as part of your education :
No person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime,
unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising
in the land or naval forces, or in the militia when in actual service in time of
war or public danger ; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be
twice put in jeopardy of life or limb ; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case
to be a witness against himself; nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property,
without due process of law ;
That is the other point you remember —
nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation."
If I am not mistaken, you recited 9 different places of employment
that you engaged in in Milwaukee between January 1952 and the
present date. What other employment in addition to these 9 places
did you engage in, either nighttime or daytime? Did you do any
■writing for compensation? Did you do any organization work or
lecturing ? If so, what ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Have you any other question, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Rose. I now reside in Milwaukee, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. At what address ?
Mr. Rose. I now reside at 924-A West Greenfield Avenue.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived there ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I refuse to answer this question, sir, under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Doyle. May I instruct you to answer, and I want to make it
clear that the rules of this committee only permit legal counsel to
advise a witness as to his constitutional rights. We never allow a
lawyer, if we can help it, to tell a witness what to say except on his
constitutional rights. I am stating that again for the future witnesses,
because it ought to be perfectly clear by this time that we stand upon
that premise.
I am instructing you to answer that question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. I think we are entitled to know where you have lived.
The United States Government is entitled to know where its citizens
live.
Mr. Rose. I refuse to answer that question, sir, under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Doyle. I want to give you another opportunity to answer it.
I am instructing you to answer that question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Rose. I still refuse to answer, sir, under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. I thought probably you would.
Any other questions, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Any other questions, gentlemen ?
The witness is excused.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Mark Berman.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Berman, will you please raise your right hand and
be sworn ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 743
Mr. Berman. Would you mind if they got done, because I would
like to be
Mr. Doyle. Composed ?
Mr. Berman. That is right. You hit the nail on the head.
Are the photographers done, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Doyle. You ask them.
Mr. Berman. You can do all you want, but I am just wondering
if you are done.
Mr. Doyle. Let us proceed.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Berman. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Be seated.
If the press will desist, please, for the balance of this gentleman's
testimony.
I am sure, counsel, that you heard my pronouncement of the com-
mittee rule. The presence of counsel is limited to advice as to consti-
tutional rights, not to put words into the mouth of the witness.
Mr. Fairchild. I understand the rule.
TESTIMONY OF MARK BERMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY THOMAS
FAIRCHILD, COUNSEL
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Berman. I am Mark Berman.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Fairchild. Thomas Fairchild, 135 West Wells Street, Mil-
waukee, Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Berman?
Mr. Berman. I was born March 1, 1928, on the outskirts of Flush-
ing, N. Y.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Berman. I now reside in Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. What address ?
Mr. Berman. At 3495 Borth Bremen.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Milwaukee ?
Mr. Berman. I have lived in Milwaukee since approximately
October of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cational training has been ?
Mr. Berman. I attended the elementary schools, completed high
school, and attended, though not consecutively, 12 straight months
each year but for a 4-year period the University of Wisconsin in
Madison.
Mr. Tavenner. What were the years when you were there?
Mr. Berman. Between approximately September 1945 and June
1949, though I want to make clear I was not there 12 months per year
in 4 straight years.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I understand.
Mr. Berman, I hand you a photostatic copy of the Daily Cardinal,
which is a paper published by the University of Wisconsin at Madi-
son under date of May 21, 1948. In the upper left hand corner of this
paper is a photograph. Will you examine it, please, and state what
it is that you see there?
744 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Berman. You said, Mr. Tavenner, the upper left hand corner?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Berman. In answer to your question of what I see, and I am
describing in the upper left hand corner of this photostatic thing here,
it says, "No. 90542, 1948 membership card Communist Party of the
U. S. A., name : Mark Berman, Madison, Wis. Date issued October
20, 1947; signature of State chairman," above which is Fred B.
Blair.
On the lower left hand side of the copy of this which is in the upper
left hand side of the whole thing is a seal which is not completely
legible. It says something about Wisconsin Committee, and says
"Communist Party of the" — and that is all that is legible.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you from your recollection supply the illegible
information that you spoke of ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berman. Well, Mr. Chairman— I mean, Mr. Tavenner; ex-
cuse me. I would refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Doyle. You say you would refuse. Do you refuse to answer it ?
Mr. Berman. I do refuse, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. Does the photostat of the card show a signature?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. You read a name, but I want to know whether it is
a signature or a typewritten name ?
Mr. Berman. It seems to be a matter of interpretation. I mean it
appears. In this I am just stating opinion. It appears that there are
two signatures on it.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the name that appears there,
"Mark Berman," and state whether or not it is in your handwriting?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question, Mr. Tavenner on the
grounds that the answer to that question might also tend to incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, how many Com-
munist Party cards you have held ?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
that question also might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. I know from what you have said that the date of
this Communist Party card in the name of Mark Berman was dated
in 1947. Had you been a member of the Communist Party at any
time prior to 1947 ?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question, Mr. Tavenner, on the
same grounds as before ; the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. On the second page of the photostat you will see that
a debate was held at the university or at least a public meeting was
held in which you stated the reasons why you were a member of the
Communist Party and another individual stated the reasons he was
not a member of the Communist Party. Do you see that ?
Mr. Berman. I see, Mr. Tavenner, what appears to be a description
of what you are referring to.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in the public discussion that was
indicated occurred ?
Mr. Berman. I would refuse to answer that question also on the
grounds that it, too, might tend to incriminate me, the answer.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 745
Mr. Tavenner. Were you active in the work of the Communist Party
while you were a student at the University of Wisconsin ?
Mr. Berman. Same answer, Mr. Tavenner. I refuse to answer that
question, also, on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to introduce the document into evidence,
Mr. Chairman, and ask that it be marked "Berman Exhibit No. 1,"
for identification purposes only, and to be made a part of the commit-
tee files.
Mr. Dotle. It is so ordered.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you come to Milwaukee in 1949 upon the com-
pletion of your work at the University of Wisconsin ?
Mr. Berman. Eventually I did come to Milwaukee.
Mr. Scherer. Where did you go to after you left the university ?
Mr. Dotle. Possibly the gentleman lived here all the time while he
was attending the university ?
Mr. Berman. I don't remember exactly what I did in the period
between which I graduated and the period in which I came to Mil-
waukee to reside, so I couldn't
Mr. Scherer. When did you finish the university ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berman. Did you mean did I get a degree from the university ?
Mr. Scherer. When did you terminate your connection with the
University of Wisconsin ?
Mr. Berman. I have already answered that question ; June of 1949.
Mr. Scherer. When you terminated your relationship with the
school did you leave Madison ?
Mr. Berman. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Scherer. Where did you go ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berman. I was more or less, to use the expression, bumming
around the country ; I mean it, I took a vacation, took a rest.
Mr. Scherer. Over how long a period did you bum around the
country ?
Mr. Berman. Approximately until, as I recall, approximately until
October of 1949.
Mr. Scherer. How many months was that ?
Mr. Berman. Approximately three and a half, four months.
Mr. Scherer. And you can not tell us any places you visited during
that time?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berman. Mr. Scherer, I would refuse to answer that question
on the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. A few minutes ago you said that you did not re-
member where you were during that period. How can you take the
fifth amendment now if you do not remember where you were ?
Mr. Berman. I take it on my constitutional grounds, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Did you go out of the country during that period?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. The fact is you were not bumming or taking a vaca-
tion. You were on an assignment for the Communist Party, were you
not?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer this question, sir, on the grounds
that it, too, might tend to incriminate me.
746 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Scherer. Were you telling us the truth a few minutes ago when
you said that you were bumming and on a vacation during that period ?
Mr. Berman. I would refuse to answer that question, sir, on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. Do you mean you are taking the fifth amendment to
a question as to whether or not a few minutes ago you told us the truth ?
That is a new one.
Mr. Doyle. I will instruct the witness to answer that. That is a
new one.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berman. Could I hear the question again ?
Mr. Scherer. I think I am going to withdraw the question at this
point. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. On your return to Milwaukee what employment did
you have ?
Mr. Berman. I procured employment at what is now known as the
American Motors Corp. in January of 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. What work did you engage in in Milwaukee between
October of 1949 and January 1 when you became employed ?
Mr. Berman. I would refuse to answer that question, Mr. Tavenner,
on the grounds that said answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain employed by American
Motors ?
Mr. Berman. I am presently employed by American Motors.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been employed continuously since January
1, 1950, by that company ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berman. I have worked continuously for the American Motors
Corp. from January of 1950, and I am employed there presently,
though there were intermittent layoffs due to cutbacks, failure to sell
cars, et cetera.
Mr. Tavenner. During the time you were employed by American
Motors were you a member of a union having bargaining rights with
that organization ?
Mr. Berman. You said "were." I am presently employed there.
Mr. Tavenner. That would cover it.
Mr. Berman. And the question ?
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of a union at any time since
the beginning of your employment with American Motors ?
Mr. Berman. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the name of the union ?
Mr. Berman. Local No. 75 UAW-CIO.
Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time have you occupied any
office or position within your union ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berman. Mr. Tavenner, in regard to that question I would like
to say that the chairman of the subcommittee made the statement at
the beginning of the hearing that this hearing would not be involved
in the question of unions and union matters, and it would not take up
the question of conflict between companies and unions or one union and
another union, and my feeling is — I do not wish to misinterpret, but I
do feel that the line of questioning at this point is somewhat in contra-
diction with the statement with which the subcommittee chairman
opened the hearings on yesterday.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AEEA 747
Mr. Tavenner. You will recall, also, that the chairman said that
wherever it had information of a reliable character that an individual
was a member of the Communist Party they would follow it regard-
less of where it led.
Mr. Doyle. That is correct, Mr. Tavenner, and I made it crystal
clear that we would try to follow the Communist conspiracy whether
it went into a union, a church, a university or any place else. That
is what we are doing, sir, with you.
Mr. Tavenner. Please answer the question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berman. The question just once again, please.
Mr. Tavenner. My question was whether or not you have been an
official or held any position within your union during the period of
time that you have been employed at American Motors ?
Mr. Berman. I have not been what is called an official, but I have
served as a head steward of my department. I was elected as a mem-
ber of the union election committee by the membership.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the date when you became steward ?
Mr. Berman. At this point I could not give the date. I mean I
don't recall the date.
Mr. Tavenner. You have been employed there only since January
1,1950?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. You can come within a month, certainly, of the
time.
Mr. Berman. In regards to the question of head steward, approxi-
mately at the beginning of 1955, sometime in January.
Mr. Tavenner. January 1955. Is that an elective office or an ap-
pointive office ?
Mr. Berman. It is an elective office,
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
the time you ran for that office ?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever denied before the membership of
your union that you were a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Berman. I would refuse to answer that question, sir, on the
grounds that an answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Actually you have been engaged in various exten-
sive work for the Communist Party since the fall of 1949 in Milwau-
kee, have you not?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. As a member of the Youth Group of the Commu-
nist Party in Milwaukee you were the organizer of the Labor Youth
League in the fall of 1949, isn't that true ?
Mr. Berman. The same answer; I refuse to answer that question
on the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. It is because of that that you would not answer the
question as to what you did just prior to your obtaining employment
in 1950 in Milwaukee because you were giving full time to the Com-
munist Party in the fall of 1949, is that not correct ?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason ;
the answer might tend to incriminate me.
748 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Scherer. It is obvious, then, that the witness lied to us when
he said that during those 2 years or during the time that he left Madi-
son and came to Milwaukee, he was merely bumming around the coun-
try and taking a vacation.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Berman, the committee heard the testimony of
Mr. Ondrejka that you were active in the preparation of the material,
or at least the supervision of the preparation of the material, for a
Communist paper entitled Unity; that on one occasion he saw on a
table a stack of the issues of that organization ; that he overheard Jack
Kling, who was then the head of the Communist Party for the State of
Wisconsin, take you to task for certain inaccuracies or typographical
errors for the construction of that material that was in the magazine,
and that Kling said that he expected something better of you with a
paper of this description.
Will you tell the committee, please, what you know about the print-
ing of that paper ?
Mr. Berman. Are you asking a question ?
Mr. Tavenner. I certainly am.
Mr. Bebman. I am refusing to answer that question or to give the
information. I am refusing to answer the request and the question on
the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that paper published in the city of Milwaukee ?
Mr. Berman. The same answer ; I refuse to answer on the grounds
that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. Was anything Ondrejka said with reference to you
untrue ?
Mr. Berman. I refuse, Mr. Scherer, to answer your question on the
same grounds, that said answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. Is it not a fact that everything Ondrejka said about
you and your activities in the Communist Party was true ?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question as well on the same
grounds ; that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. If what Ondrejka said about you was untrue would
you tell us ?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question, as well, on the same
grounds. Said answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think I should call to the commit-
tee's attention that the publication of this Communist pamphlet or bul-
letin by the Wisconsin auto section of the Communist Party is a viola-
tion of the law from the standpoint of the printer under the 1954
amendment to the Internal Security Act of 1950 unless the printing
press or the other paraphernalia used in the printing of it was regis-
tered as provided by law.
(At this point, Mr. Scherer left the room.)
Mr. Tavenner. The staff has conducted some further investigation
of that matter and though it is not in a position to announce anything
with regard to the printer of it, if the printer is the outfit that the staff
thinks it is, it has not complied with the law, and the committee may
desire to consider whether or not it will refer the matter to the Depart-
men of Justice for further investigative and prosecutive action.
Mr. Doyle. I will say, counsel, that the committee will be inter-
ested in knowing whether or not there has been a violation of law by
the printer or the Communist Party or anyone, and if there has been,
let us cite it to the Department of Justice.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 749
There have been plenty of violations by the Communist conspiracy
without letting it get by with any violation of law.
Mr. Tavenner. If the testimony of Mr. Ondrejka about this witness
is true, he is in a position to give the Government that information. I
think the committee should consider having his immunity waived and
having him give the testimony on the point of this criminal violation.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have further questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
that said answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds
that the question might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Willis ?
(At this point, Mr. Scherer reentered the room)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask an additional
question or two.
Mr. Doyle. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Berman. have you advised the committee
whether or not you worked at the Nash-Kelvinator Co. ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berman. The jNTash-Kelvinator Co. is the name of the com-
pany which I referred to before, but which lias lately become the
American Motors Co., and that is the name that it is now known as.
Mr. Tavenner. So your testimony before related to that same em-
ployment, though we did not identify it as such.
When did you begin working for the Nash-Kelvinator Co., now the
American Motors ?
Mr. Berman. As I previously stated sometime in January of 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you work for any other concern during 1950?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berman. I can't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. You can't recall whether you had any other employ-
ment or otherwise during 1950?
Mr. Berman. I can't recall, sir, because I can't recall every oc-
casion which we had what is referred to as seasonal layoffs and I
know they have been numerous, but I can't recall when they were.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me see if I can refresh your recollection. Did
you work for the Long Life Rug Co. ?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer this question, sir, on the grounds
that said answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer. How in the world could
whether or not you worked for this Long Life Rug Co. in this city in-
criminate you or tend to? Is that not a legitimate business?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Is your recollection refreshed now at this point as
to where you worked during 1950 since I asked you that question?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
750 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Scherer. I recall that the Long Life Rug Co. is the company
owned by the wife of Mortimer Altman, who testified here the other
day, and when I asked him who the other employees were he took the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. That is right. He said he did not own any of the rug
business, his wife owned it all.
Mr. Berman. Will you repeat the question, please ?
Mr. Tavenner. I asked you if my question to you about the pos-
sibility of your having worked at the Long Life Rug Co. refreshed
your recollection as to where you did work during that year.
Mr. Doyle. So that the witness will have it clear, I instructed you
to answer.
Mr. Berman. I will refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Willis. Mr. Tavenner, on the question of timing, his testimony
is that he left college in June and roamed around until October of
1949. You had better go back and ask him from that time and do
not restrict it, please, to 1950 because there won't be any escape.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you worked with the Long Life Rug Co. at
any time ?
Mr. Berman. I would refuse to answer that question, sir, on the
same grounds as previously stated ; the answer might tend to incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Doyle. You say you would refuse. Do you refuse?
Mr. Berman. I do refuse.
Mr. Doyle. Then I do instruct you to answer that question.
Mr. Berman. I still, sir, do refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Have you any questions, Congressman Willis ?
Mr. Willis. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Congressman Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes.
The witness, in response to some questions I asked him earlier re-
fused to say whether any part of the testimony of the witness, Ori-
drejka, was true or whether it was false, basing his refusal to answer
on the ground that to do so might tend to incriminate him.
Witness, I am going to ask you whether or not after you leave the
hearing room like so many other witnesses of your caliber have done,
you are going out and say that Ondrejka lied about you or lied in
his testimony, or that he was an informer or stool jigeon? Are you
going to do that after you leave the hearing room ?
Mr. Berman. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the same
grounds. I do refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. I think in view of the witness' reference to my prelimi-
nary statement at the announcement of this hearing yesterday morn-
ing, and I believe I have noticed you, Mr. Witness, in the courtroom
both all day yesterday and all day today prior to the time you were
called
Mr. Berman. Just a correction on that. I was not in the room here
all day yesterday. I came for just a short while in the afternoon.
Mr. Doyle. You were here all this morning.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 751
Mr. Berman. I think pretty much so.
Mr. Doyle. In view of your reference to my 3-page statement, I
think I will read just quickly the 2 paragraphs that seem pertinent in
view of your observation about the union situation.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. I will quote again :
The purpose of this present investigation starting this morning is to determine
first whether there has been any planned Communist activity in this important
area, and to show the nature, extent, character, and objection thereof.
It is not limited to this, however. The committee is especially interested in
ascertaining the methods used by the Communist Party in infiltrating local in-
dustrial units, civic organization or other groups, and the extent of its influence
in economic and social phases of our society.
The committee wants it understood that in the conduct of the hearing it pro-
poses to follow and uncover if it can the Commmunist Party activities of any
person as to whom reliable information indicates Communist Party affiliation
whether that person be in the field of labor or any other field.
Now, sir ; that is what I said and I want to say to you that we believe
we have reliable information, as our questions indicated, of your con-
tinuous Communist Party activity. We are determined, as far as we
can as American Congressmen, that the Communist conspiracy is not
going to infiltrate.
As far as we can cooperate with respectful, decent organized labor
we are going to see to it that you do not take over any organization
in our Nation whether it is labor or otherwise.
Mr. Counsel and members of the committee, I was asked twice this
afternoon whether or not our committee had any recent evidence, other
than what came before this committee, of the fact that the Communist
Party in our Nation advocates the use of force and violence. I will
not read it all, but I will ask without objection to put into the record
just 3 paragraphs in an opinion by the distinguished Illinois judge of
the United States District Court, Northern District of Illinois, East-
ern Division, in the case of the United States of America, plaintiff, v.
Claude Mack Lightfoot, defendant, with which I am sure my dis-
tinguished colleagues are familiar. This was made by the distin-
guished court judge on November 1, 1954. I will read just 3 para-
graphs and ask your O. K. to put the text of the full decision in the
record of this hearing.
Quoting the judge :
The extracts show that from a stated belief in the principles of Marxism-
Leninism a reasonable mind could conclude beyond a reasonable doubt the cor-
responding belief in the use of force and violence for the overthrow of the Gov-
ernment of the United States. In fact many courts have apparently so construed
them.
I find that, considering the documentary evidence plus the testimony of the
witnesses, there was evidence from which a reasonable mind could conclude
beyond a reasonable doubt that the Communist Party was, during the indictment
period, one which advocated the overthrow of the Government by force and
violence as speedily as circumstances would permit.
Having found upon ample evidence that the advocacy of the party was of the
use of force and violence for the purposes described, the jury could hardly have
found that the defendant did not have knowledge of this advocacy. Considering
his writings in evidence, which call for a dedication to Marxism-Leninism, and
all the testimony of the witnesses, I find that there was evidence from which a
reasonable mind would conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant
knew that the Communist Party advocated the overthrow of the Government of
the United States by force and violence, and that he intended to bring about such
overthrow by force and violence.
752 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
DECISION OF JUDGE PHILIP L. SULLIVAN, UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT, CHICAGO, IN
THE LIGHTFOOT CASE
I have been keenly aware that this is not an ordinary criminal case ; through-
out the trial, I have been sensitive to the justice of defendant's contention that
it would be difficult to secure a fair verdict on this issue ; and I have been aware
that many of us tend to discard our normal thinking and reactions when we
hear the word "communism." For these reasons, I wish to make an exhaustive
study of the evidence submitted, with a view to using my power under rule 29
of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure to direct a judgment of acquittal if
it should appear that the verdict of the jury was not supported by evidence
from which a reasonable mind could conclude guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
This study has convinced me that the verdict of the jury was supported by
the required evidence.
The defendant was indicted under section 2 of the Smith Act (title 18 U. S.
C. A., sec. 2385) which provides:
"Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group or
assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or de-
struction of any such government by force or violence ; or becomes or is a mem-
ber of, or affiliates with, any such society, group or assembly of persons know-
ing the purposes thereof * * *" [Italic supplied].
The indictment charges that from on or about July 25, 1945, and continuously
thereafter, up to and including the date of the indictment (May 14, 1954), the
Communist Party was a society of persons advocating the overthrow of the
Government of the United States by force and violence as speedily as circum-
stances would permit ; and that the defendant was a member of that organiza-
tion during the same period, knowing these purposes, and intending to bring
about such overthrow by force and violence as speedily as circumstances would
permit.
That defendant was a member of the Communist Party was admitted by him-
self as well as by his counsel, and established by formal proof.
The evidence of the Government tending to prove the "advocacy" of the party
falls into several categories. First : There was evidence tending to show that :
The party has "secret" members ; in schools conducted by it, training was uniform
and according to an established pattern; it is a highly organized group, built
on well-defined administrative levels and maintaining discipline within its ranks.
This evidence was of course significant as showing the deviation of the Com-
munist Party from normal political parties, and an interference may fairly be
drawn from it that significant reasons for the deviation exist.
Second : There was evidence to show its teachings and beliefs. This evidence
established that the Communist Party is a political party "basing itself on the
principles of scientific socialism, Marxism-Leninism." To prove the meaning of
this term, there have been introduced a number of extracts from the books which
have been described as the "classics" of Marxism-Leninism. A few of these
works, on which it was testified the Communist Party relies, are: Communist
Manifesto : Stalin, Foundations of Leninism ; Lenin, Left Wing Communism,
An Infantile Disorder ; Stalin, Problems of Leninism.
The extracts show that from a stated belief in the principles of Marxism-Len-
inism, a reasonable mind could conclude beyond a reasonable doubt a correspond-
ing belief in the use of force and violence for the overthrow of the Government
of the United States. In fact, many courts have apparently so construed them.
I find that, considering the documentary evidence, plus the testimony of the
witnesses, there was evidence from which a reasonable mind could conclude
beyond a reasonable doubt that the Communist Party was, during the indictment
period, one which advocated the overthrow of the Government by force and
violence as speedily as circumstances would permit.
Having found upon ample evidence that the advocacy of the party was of the
use of force and violence for the purposes described, the jury could hardly have
found that the defendant did not have knowledge of this advocacy. Consider-
ing his writings in evidence, which call for a dedication to Marxism-Leninism,
and all the testimony of all the witnesses, I find that there was evidence from
which a reasonable mind could conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that the de-
fendant knew that the Communist Party advocated the overthrow of the Gov-
ernment of the United States by force and violence, and that he intended to
bring about such overthrow by force and violence.
Now in company with that quotation by this distinguished Federal
court judge, I want to say to the witness, why do you not get out of
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 753
that conspiracy ? Why do you not place your natural talents in sup-
port of the Nation which gave you birth and the birth of your chil •
dren and your lovely family, and gave you a chance for public educa-
tion ? Why do you not serve our own Government and Nation instead
of the Marxism-Leninism conspiracy which right today advocates the
forceful, violent overthrow of our constitutional form of government ;
and you know it does. Why do you not get out of it ?
That is the reason this committee is here. We know without perad-
venture of a doubt that the Communist Party, of which we believe this
young witness and these other witnesses who have pleaded the fifth
amendment are members, and in which we believe they have been
active, is a damnable consipracy and that is the reason we are here in
Milwaukee : To help expose this damnable conspiracy. I do not hesi-
tate to tell any American man to get out of it.
Who is your next witness, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Berman. Mr. Chairman, am I dismissed ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, and we thank you for being so patient.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Berger, will you come forward, please.
Mr. Berman. Six dollars a day is nonunion and scab wages and
I don't want it.
Mr. Doyle. It is the payment that your Government pays. It is just
like you Communists to call it wages ; that the United States Govern-
ment pays scab wages because you think of it as a scab. I am ashamed
of you.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God i
Mr. Berger. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY D. BERGER, ACCOMPANIED BY THOMAS R.
AMLIE, COUNSEL
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Berger. Sidney D. Berger.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Amlie. The name is T. R. Amlie, 1726 Height Street, Madison,
Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Berger ?
Mr. Berger. December 30, 1925, city of New York.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Berger. The city of Milwaukee, Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your address in Milwaukee ?
Mr. Berger. 1334 North 15th Street.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Milwaukee ?
Mr. Berger. 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cational training has been ?
Mr. Berger. Grammar school elementary grades, high school, col-
lege, postgraduate work, 10 years of religious studies, 4 years of musical
studies and at present I am enrolled at the Wisconsin State College in
Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us, please, where you received the vari-
ous typos of training which you have described?
Mr. Berger. Do you mean advanced training, college?
63796— 55— pt. 2 4
754 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, advanced college training.
Mr. Berger. I was a student of government and public administra-
tion at the College of the City of New York, a free institution.
Mr. Tavenner. During what period?
Mr. Berger. I enrolled there in 1942, received my degree in June of
1948 ; but I was away for several years in the United States Army Air
Force.
Mr. Tavenner. What years were you in the Air Force?
Mr. Berger. I enlisted in December of 1943 and was discharged in
November of 1945.
Mr. Scherer. When you were in the United States Air Force were
you a Communist?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. On the grounds that any answer to this question will
be placing me in the position of being a witness against myself I will
refuse to answer.
Mr. Willis. Did you take allegiance to the Government of the
United States when you were in the Air Force?
Mr. Berger. Absolutely, sir.
Mr. Willis. And you will not answer the question as to whether
you were a Communist at the same time ?
Mr. Berger. The same answer.
Mr. Willis. Meaning what specifically ? Let us get it in the record.
Mr. Berger. As I cited to Mr. Scherer's question.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you completed giving us a statement of the
places you took your various courses and advanced training?
Mr. Berger. No, sir. I told you that I was graduated from CCNY
and I did one semester of postgraduate work at the University of Wis-
consin at Madison.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that?
Mr. Berger. That was in September of 1948 until January of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there anything since that?
Mr. Berger. I enrolled for the spring semester of 1951 at Marquette
University, but dropped out after several weeks of classes. I was out
of school then, that is I wasn't enrolled at a college until this spring
semester again at Wisconsin State although I have been doing studies
in music and on a private basis for many years.
Mr. Tavenner. Maybe I misunderstood you, but I thought you indi-
cated in answer to my first question about your education that you had
spent a number of years in religious study.
Mr. Berger. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I have not understood where that occurred, and
when ?
Mr. Berger. This was from the ages of 5 or 6 until 16 continuously.
Mr. Tavenner. You came to Milwaukee in 1949?
Mr. Berger. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your purpose in coming to Milwaukee?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. Well, it seems like a funny question. I had no pur-
pose other than that for almost a year I had been traveling around
the country and had not settled down, and when I arrived here did not
have very much intention of what I was going to do or knowledge of
what I was going to do. I came to Milwaukee as I had been to a num-
ber of cities in traveling around the United States.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 755
Mr. Tavenner. You did not receive any suggestion by the Com-
munist Party to locate in this area or anything of that character; is
that what I understand you to mean ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. On advice of counsel I shall not answer the question
because of the previous reason that I do not wish to find myself in the
position of becoming a witness against myself.
Mr. Scherer. Then you did not come to Milwaukee under the cir-
cumstances you told us just a few minutes ago, that you just picked
out Milwaukee like you picked out any other city. That was not the
truth, then, was it ?
Mr. Berger. Is that your interpretation, sir ?
Mr. Scherer. I am asking you.
Mr. Berger. I will cite my previous answer.
Mr. Scherer. Were you telling us the truth a few minutes ago when
you said you selected Milwaukee '}
Mr. Berger. I was under oath when I made that statement, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I am asking you were you telling the truth when you
said that you just selected Milwaukee with no particular direction, no
particular reason ?
Mr. Berger. I swore under oath to answer questions truthfully.
Mr. Scherer. That is not the question. I am asking you whether
you told us the truth when you said that.
Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Doyle. I do, Mr. Witness. I direct you to answer the question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. Of course, the answer was true.
Mr. Scherer. It was true ?
Mr. Berger. And I say, of course, that I took the oath and I, of
course, intend to abide by the oath.
Mr. Scherer. Then, again Mr. Tavenner's question, did you come
here at the instruction of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Berger. Again I cite the answer that I gave.
Mr. Scherer. What was that answer ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. On the advice of counsel I decline to answer since this
question may place me in such a position that I shall be a witness
against myself.
Mr. Scherer. To me your answers are totally inconsistent. If you
came here with no purpose at all, you just happened to pick out Mil-
waukee, and then the next question is asked you whether you came
here at the direction of the Communist Party and you refuse to tell
us ; obviously your answers are totally inconsistent.
Mr. Berger. I am sorry you can't follow my reasoning, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Frankly, I cannot.
Mr. Berger. This is why I have hired counsel.
Mr. Scherer. If you had not come here at the direction of the Com-
munist Party would you so tell us ?
Mr. Berger. I believe I told you before how and why I came to
Milwaukee.
Mr. Scherer. I am asking you now if you had not come here at the
instruction of the Communist Party would you so tell us ?
Mr. Berger. Well, I don't see that this is any different from the
question I just refused to answer.
756 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Mr. Witness. It is a different question.
Mr. Berger. Then please repeat it.
Mr. Scherer. If 3^011 had not come here at the direction of the Com-
munist Party would you so tell us ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I will stand on the same grounds, sir.
Mr. Scherer. In other words, you are taking the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Berger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
living in New York prior to your coming to the city of Milwaukee?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I cite my previous answer, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
you were in attendance at the City College of New York ?
Mr. Berger. I cite my previous answer, and I would like to just
extend it one step further and say that I consider these questions an
invasion of my right to free speech, thought, and association under the
first amendment to the Constitution, though, of course, I will refer
to the fifth amendment privilege as afforded me.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Tavenner, when did the witness say he came to
Milwaukee?
Mr. Tavenner. In 1949.
Mr. Scherer. Did we not have some testimony in Detroit that about
that time the Communist Party sent out of New York a lot of these
young fellows with educational backgrounds such as this to colonize
industry ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, that testimony was in Flint, Mich.
Mr. Doyle. I remember that testimony very well.
Mr. Scherer. Some of them came out of New York. What college
did he go to in New York ?
Mr. Tavenner. The City College of New York.
Mr. Scherer. A number of them came from the City College of
New York under the direction of the Communist Party.
Mr. Berger. I take it that this isn't meant as a slur upon my former
college?
Mr. Doyle. Not at all.
Mr. Scherer. We are quoting the testimony.
Mr. Berger. I also take it that you are not referring to Matusow.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he attend the City College of New York to your
knowledge ?
Mr. Berger. I know nothing about that character but what I read
in the newspapers.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know Mr. Howard Falk ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I am afraid I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. He was in attendance at the City College of New
York in September 1949.
Mr. Berger. I would say there were some 15,000 or more students
at that college.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet any of the students at the City Col-
lege of New York who went into the Buick plant and other auto-
mobile production companies in the city of Flint prior to their leav-
ing New York ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 757
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I am afraid I just haven't made it my business or
pleasure to follow the careers of anyone else in my class.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you requested to go out into industry by any
member of the Communist Party while you were in attendance at City
College of New York?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. Sorry, sir. I will cite my previous reference in refus-
ing to answer questions of this type.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, merely to make your answer fuller, do
you stand on the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Berger. The first and fifth amendments, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I am beginning to think that this fellow just didn't
come here to Milwaukee by accident.
Mr. Berger. You have the right to free thought.
Mr. Scherer. Particularly when he takes the fifth amendment to
the question as to whether or not he came here at the direction of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Tavenner. What has been your employment since you have
been in Milwaukee ?
Mr. Berger. It covers a great many jobs because this has been a
hard-hit town for employment, that is since 1949, if you would study
our economic conditions. There were long stretches of unemployment
for me.
Mr. Tavenner. Let us begin at the beginning. You arrived here at
what time in 1949 ?
Mr. Berger. Sometime during the summer.
Mr. Tavenner. How soon after your arrival did you become em-
ployed?
Mr. Berger. I don't think for many months.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your first employment ?
Mr. Berger. God, I was doing day labor around town. I can't re-
member every one of them, but there are day-labor agencies in this
town.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your first place of regular employment ?
Mr. Berger. The Grede Foundry.
Mr. Tavenner. When did your emplo}mient begin at the Grede
Foundry?
Mr. Berger. I do believe it was January or February of 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did that employment last ?
Mr. Berger. Until sometime in March, I think.
Mr. Tavenner. March of 1950 ?
Mr. Berger. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Before we leave that, Mr. Tavenner, I may not have
listed this as carefully as I should, but what was his educational train-
ing
Mr. Tavenner. His educational training was in Government be-
tween 1942 and 1948, and then from September 1948 to 1949 he was at
the school in the University of Wisconsin.
Mr. Scherer. What was his training; what type of training?
Mr. Tavenner. What was your course of traning in Wisconsin?
Mr. Berger. What studies was I taking ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
758 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, "WIS., AREA
Mr. Berger. I was there for 1 semester and took 4 unrelated subjects.
Mr. Scherer. Will you answer Mr. Ta vernier's question ? What sub-
jects did you take ?
Mr. Berger. I was enrolled to do graduate work in economics.
Mr. Scherer. What did you major in while you were at the City
College of New York ?
Mr. Berger. It could be considered government and economics.
Mr. Scherer. What type of work did you do when got this first job
with the Grede Foundry Co. ?
Mr. Berger. Quite rugged labor.
Mr. Scherer. Was that plant organized ?
Mr. Berger. By Mr. Grede, yes.
Mr. Scherer. You know what I mean. Did they have a union in
the plant %
Mr. Berger. They had no union.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did that employment continue ?
Mr. Berger. I would say until sometime in March if I remember
accurately, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment ?
Mr. Berger. I became quite ill about that time and was in veterans
hospital and unable to work for a long period after that.
Mr. Tavenner. My question was what was your next employment.
Mr. Berger. The A. O. Smith Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed by that corporation ?
Mr. Berger. From the latter part of June 1950 until sometime in
January of 1951.
Mr. Scherer. What did you do at the A. O. Smith Co. ?
Mr. Berger. Not quite so rugged labor.
Mr. Scherer. What type ?
Mr. Berger. It was manual work. They called it labor.
Mr. Scherer. What did the A. O. Smith Co. produce ?
Mr. Berger. Automobile chassis.
Mr. Scherer. Did they have any defense contracts ?
Mr. Berger. If they did I was unaware of them. I worked in the
division producing automobile chassis.
Mr. Scherer. Your work was entirely different from what your
training had prepared you for. What you did was entirely foreign
to your training in college, was it not ?
Mr. Berger. Hard work isn't terribly foreign to me ; no.
Mr. Scherer. Not foreign to you, but foreign to your training. You
said you majored in government and economics. You have not told
us yet the type of work you did. You just said it wasn't as hard a
labor job as the other plant.
Mr. Berger. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. You were not trained for the work you did at A. O.
Smith Co., were you ?
Mr. Berger. No ; I suppose not.
Mr. Scherer. It was foreign to your college background ?
Mr. Berger. You might say.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment after leaving A. O.
Smith Co.?
Mr. Berger. I believe that it was the Abel & Bach Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you omitted any employments that you had
prior to the one time that you are now giving us ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 759
Mr. Berger. No, I believe I told you that if there were small jobs,
two-bit, two- week jobs, I don't remember them all.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you work at the Long Life Rug Co. ?
Mr. Berger. When ?
Mr. Tavenner. Any time ?
Mr. Berger. You are in some kind of chronological order, and I
don't think you are in order.
Mr. Tavenner. We have not arrived there yet. Excuse me. Go
ahead. How long did you work at the Abel & Bach Co. ?
Mr. Berger. I would say until February or March.
Mr. Tavenner. What year ?
Mr. Berger. Fifty-two.
Mr. Scherer. What kind of company was this Bach corporation ?
Mr. Berger. Primarily a luggage concern and they also made tele-
vision cabinets.
Mr. Scherer. Did they have any defense contracts that you know
of?
Mr. Berger. I wouldn't think so.
Mr. Scherer. What type of work did you do there ?
Mr. Berger. I was an inspector.
Mr. Scherer. During the time that you worked at the companies
that you have already mentioned did you engage in any Communist
Party activities ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. At the advice of my counsel I decline to answer this
question.
Mr. Scherer. Let us make it more specific. Did you engage in any
Communist Party activities in these plants ?
Mr. Berger. The same citation.
Mr. Tavenner. After the completion of your employment at Abel
& Bach in March 1952 what was your next employment?
Mr. Berger. The Nash Body Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed by Nash Body?
Mr. Berger. I was continuously on their employment rolls from
then until today.
Mr. Tavenner. When I asked you a moment ago about your employ-
ment by the Long Life Rug. Co. you said that I was out of the proper
chronology.
When, then, were you employed by the Long Life Rug Co., because
you brought us up to date and you have said nothing about it ?
Mr. Berger. During one of many layoffs that workers are faced
with at Nash Body Corp., and if I remember correctly it might have
been sometime during 1953 for a few weeks.
Mr. Scherer. Did you get that job at Long Life Rug Co. through
the Communist Party or because of your associations in the Com-
munist Party?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. Well, irrespective of what I think of the question I
will decline to answer it for the same reasons that I have so far re-
fused to answer questions of this type.
Mr. Scherer. Who was the owner of Long Life Rug. Co. ?
Mr. Berger. I am afraid I don't accurately know.
Mr. Scherer. Did you know Mortimer Altman ?
760 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Berger. Did I know him? What does that mean, "did I know
him?" 1 ,.,
Mr. Scherer. With all this education that you have had you should
know what the question means, "Did you know Mortimer Altman ?"
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I shall decline to answer the question, sir, on the
grounds that I previously cited.
Mr. Scherer. Was he not connected with the Long Life Eug Co. ?
Mr. Berger. The same answer, the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. You knew Mortimer Altman to be a top functionary
of the Communist Party in this area, did you not ?
Mr. Berger. Same answer, same reason.
Mr. Scherer. As a result of your meeting Mortimer Altman in the
Communist Party you got the job in his plant or his wife's plant?
Mr. Berger. Same answer for the same reason.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Is it not a fact that most of the people employed there
were members of the Communist Party ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I decline for the same reason stated.
Mr. Doyle. About how many employees, Mr. Berger, were there
working at the same time you were ? About how many, if you recall ?
Were there 6 or 5 ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. No, sir, I think it was far fewer than that. It was not
a thriving business. There might only have been 1 or 2. I am not
saying with accuracy.
Mr. Doyle. If there were 1 or 2, it was you, then, and Mr. Altman.
1 s that your recollection ?
Mr. Berger. I believe there was someone else.
Mr. Doyle. There were three then ?
Mr. Berger. I said I can't remember.
Mr. Doyle. Who was the employer or the boss of the activity that
ycu engaged in at the Long Life Rug while you were there? Was it
"Mrs. Altman, a woman, or was it Mr. Altman?
Who was the person who gave you a check every week ?
Who gave the directions of what you should do as an employee ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Who appeared to run the Long Life Rug Co. ?
Mr. Berger. Mrs. Esther Altman.
Mr. Doyle. That is all, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Scherer. Pardon me, Mr. Counsel; who is the other witness
that worked at the Long Life Rug Co. ?
Mr. Tavenner. No other witness admitted, he worked there.
Mr. Scherer. But we asked a witness.
Mr. Tavenner. The witness previous to this, Mr. Mark Berman.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know Mark Berman?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer, sir, for the same reasons that I
have previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Did you see the previous witness that testified?
Mr. Berger. I saw him, yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. You were in the room. Do you know that man ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 761
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever see him before ?
Mr. Berger. Same answer, same reason.
Mr. Scherer. Was he one of the employees at the Long Life Rug
Co. at the time you were there ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. He was not.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. I might state this for the benefit of any witnesses that
are here, or counsel. We are going to finish hearing the testimony of
the witness we have subpenaed no matter if we stay here until mid-
night tomorrow and all day tomorrow night. We are going to finish
the hearings.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Berger, we have heard during the course of
this hearing testimony from Mr. Ondrejka in which he advised us
that Sidney Berger did considerable traveling in the State of Wiscon-
sin visiting ministers and priests in various areas of the State for the
purpose of promoting the American Peace Congress to be held in
Chicago.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever engage in work of that character (
Mr. Berger. I can't recall hearing such testimony, but nevertheless
I will decline to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I think possibly I have misstated the testimony.
I believe his testimony was that instead of being interested in the
Peace Congress that I mentioned, you visited various ministers and
priests throughout the State in connection with various peace cam-
paigns. Is that how you recall the testimony ?
Mr. Berger. I recall that this was said here this morning. Did I
hear it ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Berger. I heard it.
Mr. Tavenner. That is substantially what the testimony was, was it
not?
Mr. Berger. Yes, that is what he said.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he truthful in his statements With regard to
your participation in that matter ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Berger. Truth or falsity is not something I wish to discuss. I
decline to answer the question for the reasons I have previously given
in refusing to answer questions of this nature.
Mr. Tavenner. If you are basing your answer on your disinclina-
tion to answer questions of this kind I am sure the committee would
not accept that.
Mr. Berger. Sir, I told you I was disinclined; I would not allow
myself to be put in a position of testifying. This is my disinclination.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you clearly placing yourself on the fifth
amendment!
Mr. Berger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ondrejka testified that your work in this regard
was very successful. Will you tell the committee in what way it was
successful if it was ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
762 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Berger. I again resort, and gratefully, to the privileges af-
forded me by the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution of
our Eepublic.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of the Daily Worker
for June 28, 1951, page 5, and ask you to read a paragraph which
Mr. Jones will point out to you.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you read it aloud, please, sir ?
Mr. Berger. The particularly isolated paragraph ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Berger (reading) :
In a report on a 1,600-mile tour through Wisconsin on behalf of the Peace
Congress Sidney Berger wrote this week that thousands of farmers are looking
towards a peace congress with hope.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you take the trip alluded to in that news article
of the Daily Worker ?
Mr. Berger. I must decline to answer for the reasons stated.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Tavenner, may I ask the young man this question :
How in the world could your activities in the interests of world peace
incriminate you? Are we not all interested in getting an enduring
world peace ? I would not be in Congress, for instance, 30 seconds if
I was not working for that end.
If you took a 1,600-mile trip or a 100-mile trip in the interests of
world peace, how in God's name could it incriminate you?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Of course, if you were traveling as an agent of the
Communist Party, that is another thing, because their contention of
a basis of world peace is that we lose our liberty as a freedom-loving
people.
I can understand that but I am being sincere in my question. You
had a wonderful religious training from the time you were 6 until
you were 16, according to your own testimony. I, as a man, believing
in God, can understand why you would be interested in world peace,
but how in God's name could it incriminate you to say so ? What are
you afraid of? Could there be any criminal prosecution? I cannot
conceive of a circumstance in which you could possibly be prosecuted
in a criminal case because you took a 1,600-mile trip in the interests of
world peace.
Mr. Scherer. Unless as you said, Mr. Doyle, he did it as an agent
of the Communist Party. That is the only conclusion you can draw
then, from his refusal to answer on the ground that it might incrimi-
nate him. You cannot draw any other conclusion than that he did it
as an agent of the Communist Party. Otherwise he certainly cannot
take the fifth amendment and if he did, then he would be invoking
the fifth amendment improperly.
Mr. Doyle. May I be perfectly frank with you again, witness. My
conception of the Communist Party representations of their basis for
an enduring world peace is that they are phony reasons, a phony basis.
Perhaps that is what you are thinking of when I ask you these ques-
tions. I concede that the Communist Party basis for world peace is
phony and is threatening to our liberty as a freedom-loving people;
but on the basis of world peace how in the world could you be prose-
cuted criminally ?
(Witness conferred with counsel)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 763
Mr. Doyle. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Berger. The same answer, the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Berger. I cite my previous answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Willis ?
Mr. Willis. No, no questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer, questions ?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. I know you have been in the courtroom all day and
therefore you will realize, witness, that I am not targeting you. Let
me urge you that which I have done with the other witness. For
heaven's sake get out of the Communist conspiracy. I do not care in
what denomination or sect your religious training was. You ap-
parently have had great religious training which no doubt should be
a great inspiration to you.
Mr. Berger. It is.
Mr. Doyle. If it is, and you have just said it is, why do you not
direct that great religious inspiration toward the democratic way of
life instead of to a totalitarian conspiracy advocating the use of force
and violence, even as late as this decision you heard me read by the
great Federal judge
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. November 1954. Why do you not direct it against that
conspiracy instead of with it ? I think you owe it to your Nation to
get out of it and give your talents, which are apparently very plentiful,
to your country. You did not volunteer much, but I could tell by your
answers that you are pretty well read and have had a fine schooling.
Young men in your generation have so much to give that you should
not be taking away strength from the country that gave you birth,
and that is what you are doing in the Communist conspiracy.
I think you know it, but you are afraid to take a positive position.
I do hope I have not done you an injustice, but I do not think I have.
I feel I would do myself an injustice if I had not taken this oppor-
tunity to say this to you because I respect every man's religion very
greatly.
You are excused, Mr. Berger.
Mr. Berger. Congressman Doyle, I had another subpena.
Mr. Doyle. This will take the place of that one.
Mr. Berger. Thank you.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Murray Wolf son, would you come forward, sir ?
TESTIMONY OF MURRAY WOLFSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JACK GOODSITT
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Wolfson. Murray Wolfson, W-o-l-f -s-o-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Goodsitt. Jack L. Goodsitt.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Tavenner, I want to swear the witness before you
begin the questioning.
764 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Wolfson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Your name is still Mr. Wolfson ?
Mr. Wolfson. Yes, sir, it is.
(At this point, Mr. Scherer left the room. )
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Wolfson '?
Mr. Wolfson. I was born in New York City on September 14, 1927.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to Milwaukee ?
Mr. Wolfson. In September of 1950 or possibly the end of August
1950.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cational training has been ?
Mr. Wolfson. Yes, sir. I attended primary school in New York
City and high school there and took a bachelor's degree, bachelor of
science in economics and statistics at the City College of New York.
I graduated in 1948. I entered in 1943. That period of training was
interrupted by a period in the service.
Mr. Tavenner. While you were attending the City College of New
York did you become acquainted with Mr. Berger, who just left the
stand, Mr. Sidney Berger ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Wolfson. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Upon your arrival here in September 1950 what
was your first employment ?
Mr. Wolfson. At the Geuder, Paeschket & Frey Co.
Mr. Tavenner. In what business is that company engaged ?
Mr. Wolfson. It is engaged in fabrication of ironing boards, pots,
and pans, and so on.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed by that company ?
Mr. Wolfson. I was employed there from September of 1950 until
the end of that year, possibly January of the following year.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment ?
Mr. Wolfson. At the J. I. Case Co. in Racine, Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. That took you away from Milwaukee ?
Mr. Wolfson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you move your residence to Racine from Mil-
waukee ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Wolfson. If you meant that I established my home in Racine,
yes.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you move to Racine ?
Mr. Wolfson. January of 1951, I imagine, it was toward the be-
ginning, possibly before the turn of the year.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you continue to live in Racine?
Mr. Wolfson. Until the fall of the following year.
Mr. Tavenner. While you were in Racine did you learn of the
existence of an organized group of the Communist Party at that place ?
Mr. Wolfson. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you return to Milwaukee when you left Racine?
Mr. Wolfson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What employment did you take there ?
Mr. Wolfson. At the Heil Co. in Milwaukee.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 765
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed by that company ?
Mr. Wolfson. Two and a half years, including a 6-month layoff for
lack of work.
Mr. Tavenner. That brings you up to what date ?
Mr. Wolfson. That brings me to the summer of last year.
Mr. Tavenner. 1954.
Mr. Wolfson. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How are you employed now ?
Mr. Wolfson. I am employed as a salesman and a bookkeeper, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so employed ?
Mr. Wolfson. Roughly 6 months. Probably a little longer than
that. I would have to sit and figure out the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in any type of educational training
here in the city of Milwaukee after your arrival here in 1950 ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Wolfson. Sir, will you clarify that question a little bit and tell
me what you mean ? Do you mean public institutional training ?
Mr. Tavenner. I will tie more specific about it. Did you teach in
any Communist Party class or group ?
Mr. Wolfson. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me hand you a 1955 issue of Unity. Did you
distribute the same issues of that paper at the main gate of Allis-
Chalmers on March 3, 1955 ?
Mr. Wolfson. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Wolfson Exhibit No. 1," for identification pur-
poses only, and to be made a part of the committee files.
Mr. Doyle. It is so ordered.
That same document has been identified with another number pre-
viously, hasn't it?
Mr.' Tavenner. It lias.
Mr. Doyle. This is the one that says, "published by Wisconsin auto
section, Communist Party."
Mr. Tavenner. That is correct ?
(At this point, Mr. Scherer reentered the room.)
Mr. Wolfson. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the ground
that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it published in the city of Milwaukee ?
Mr. Wolfson. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Wolfson. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party \
Mr. Wolfson. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that it may tend to incriminate me under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I was out of the room. Did this witness testify as to
his present employment?
Mr. Doyle. He said he had been a bookkeeper and salesman for the
last 6 months.
766 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Wolfson. Roughly 6 months. I would have to figure the time.
Mr. Doyle. What line of business is that for? Is it in some indus-
trial plant or what?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Wolfson. Will you repeat that question again, sir?
Mr. Scherer. By whom are you employed?
Mr. Wolfson. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. Was he asked that question while I was out?
Mr. Doyle. No.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know John Gilman?
Mr. Wolfson. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it
may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. You are employed by him now, are you not?
Mr. Wolfson. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. Gilman is the owner of the Allied Linoleum Co., isn't
he?
Mr. Wolfson. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. Isn't the Allied Linoleum Co. the center of Communist
activity ?
Mr. Wolfson. Sir, I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. That is the reason you are taking the amendment when
asked those questions?
Mr. Wolfson. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Doyle. In the interests of identification of who you are and
what you are doing, I am directing you to answer the question. We
are entitled to have your identity fixed and placed.
Mr. Wolfson. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Doyle. Is the company for which you are bookkeeper and sales-
man engaged, or has it been since you are in its employ, in furnishing
supplies to the United States Government such as linoleum or any
other supply ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Wolfson. No. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Scherer. Since you have answered that question you must an-
swer, then, by whom are you employed?
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer the question.
Mr. Wolfson. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. He can refuse but he is guilty of contempt if he does,
probably. Would you direct him to answer the question ?
Mr. Doyle. I directed him to answer the question. You understood
my direction to you to answer that question ?
Mr. Wolfson. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. May I say to you briefly that which you have heard
me say to the other, especially the younger men who have been wit-
nesses before us and pleaded the fifth amendment. You are a gradu-
ate from the University of Wisconsin. That is a State institution as
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 767
I recall. Therefore you were educated with public funds. Is that
not true ?
Mr. Wolfson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Why do you not give back to the State of Wisconsin
the investment they have in you as a graduate and a major in eco-
nomics ? Give it back to the State of Wisconsin in the form of service
to strengthen the sinews of democracy instead of weakening them by
being a member of the Communist conspiracy which is worldwide.
Why don't you do it and bless civilization instead of cursing it by being
a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
You are about the age my son would be if he hadn't been killed in the
war. I do not hesitate to say that to you. You ought to be ashamed
of yourself to be tied up. I would not dare say that if we did not
have a record that puts you in the Communist Party and you know I
would not dare say it. This little book here contains the record, and
the members of the committee here have known pretty well the iden-
tity of every witness that appeared before us. So has our legal coun-
sel. We are not shooting in the dark when we ask these questions.
Get out of it and make the Nation proud of you instead of consider-
ing you a liability along with the rest of the Communist conspirators.
May I say this to you, and you know it as a university graduate,
You know when Earl Browder was deposed as chairman of the Com-
munist Party, do you not ?
Mr. Wolfson. Are you asking me that ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. That cannot incriminate you; that was public
knowledge. You know that, do you not, as a matter of public infor-
mation ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. You are wasting your breath. You will make no im-
pression upon this witness at all.
Mr. Doyle. I just wanted to ask him.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. You know that is a fact, do you not? If you do not
want to answer that question, let me remind you that he was deposed
shortly after the Duclos letter came to the United States. You are
familiar with that, too, I am sure. I can tell by your attitude and your
answers that you are perfectly familiar with the history of the Com-
munist Party in this country since j^ou are a young man.
That being true, you know that as a result of the Duclos letter and
other things, Earl Browder was deposed in 1945 or 1946 ; you know
that ever since that time the Communist line in this country has been
force and violence, to overthrow our Nation, and I know you know it.
Yet you went into the Community Party knowing that and have
stayed in it knowing that. So have the rest of the crew that have ap-
peared before us this afternoon and pleaded the amendment. It is
a guilty conscience you all ought to have. You are charged with it
under this decision by the famous Judge Sullivan in Chicago.
Have you any other witness, tonight, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Wolfson. Do I understand I am dismissed?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, you are, sir.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in recess until 9.
768 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
All witnesses who have been subpenaed to appear tomorrow will
please be here by 9 o'clock. We will work until late tomorrow night
and the next day if necessary to get our hearing concluded.
(Whereupon, at 5: 50 p. in., Tuesday, March 29, 1955, the hearing
was recessed to reconvene at 9 a. m., Wednesday, March 30, 1955.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30, 1955
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Committee
on Un-American Activities,
Milwaukee, Wis.
public hearing
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to recess, at 9 a. m., in the marble courtroom, Federal Build-
in*.:, Milwaukee, Wis., Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the subcom-
mittee) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle (chair-
man), Edwin E. Willis, and Gordon H. Scherer.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel, and
W. Jackson Jones, staff investigator.
Mr. Doyle. Let the committee reconvene.
Let the record show that it is 9 o'clock. The full personnel of the
subcommittee of the House Un-American Activities Committee is
present; the distinguished gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Scherer, on my
left; the distinguished gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Willis, on my
right, and I am Representative Doyle from Los Angeles, Calif., acting
as subcommittee chairman.
Mr. Tavenner, will you proceed ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I think I should call to the committee's
attention that I have just discovered that the witnesses who are sub-
pen aed for today are subpenaed to appear here at 10 o'clock. It is
true that you announced yesterday that the hearing would reconvene
this morning at 9 o'clock, but I am not sure that all the witnesses are
here. If they did not happen to be here yesterday they would have
no way of knowing that.
I would like to call as the first witness, Mr. James DeWitt. Is he
here \
Mr. Doyle. Mr. DeWitt, will you please raise your right hand and
be sworn ? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. DeWitt. I do.
Mr. Doyle. I want to say that we appreciate you and your counsel,
Mr. DeWitt, coming this morning at 9 o'clock instead of 10, wh; h was
the hour set for the subpena. We appreciate that cooperation.
769
C3790— 55— pt.S
770 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
TESTIMONY OF JAMES DeWITT, ACCOMPANIED BY M. MICHAEL
ESSIN, COUNSEL
Mr. Tavexxer. What is your name, please sir ?
Mr. DeWitt. James DeWitt.
Mr. Tavexxer. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record I
Mr. Essix. Counsel for Mr. DeWitt is M. Michael Essin, attorney,.
623 North Second Street, Milwaukee 3, Wis.
Mr. Tavexxer. When and where were you born, Mr. DeWitt ?
Mr. DeWitt. I was born in Wells County, Ind., in 1905.
Mr. Tavexxer. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. DeWitt. Milwaukee, Wis.
Mr. Tavexxt:r. What is your present occupation ?
Air. DeWitt. I am a field organizer.
Mr. Tavexxer. A field organizer for what ?
Mr. DeWitt. For the United Electrical, Radio, and Machine Work-
ers of America.
Mr. Tavexxer. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
your formal educational training has been '(
Mr. DeWitt. I had seven grades of grammar school.
Mr. Tavexxer. How long have you been field organizer for the UE V
Mr. DeWitt. About 6 years.
Mr. Tavexxer. In what district are you field organizer ?
Mr. DeWitt. Wisconsin.
Mr. Tavenner. Does it have a number, or is the name Wisconsin ?
Mr. DeWitt. It is part of district No. 11.
Mr. Tavexxer. What area does district No. 11 include ?
Mr. DeWitt. It includes Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota.
Mr. Tavexxer. Prior to the period of 6 years ago when you first
became field organizer in UE, what was the nature of your em-
ployment.
Mr. DeWitt. I was a field representative for the United Farm
Equipment Workers.1
Mr. Tavexxer. The United Farm Equipment Workers merged with
the UE, did it not, to form the present organization ?
Mr. DeWitt. That is right,
Mr. Tavexxer. What was the date of the merger ?
Mr. DeWitt. 1949, 1 believe.
Mr. Tavexxer. How long had you been a field organizer in the
United Farm Equipment and Metal Workers Union ?
Mr. DeWitt. For 9 years.
Mr. Tavexxer. What territory did your district consist of?
Mr. DeWitt. Wisconsin.
Mr. Tavexxter. That would take you back to 1940 approximately
when you first became a field organizer for the Farm Equipment
Workers ?
Mr. DeWitt. That is right,
Mr. Tavexxer. Prior to 1940 what was your employment?
Mr. DeWitt. Field organizer for the CIO.
Mr. Tavexxer. In what area of the country ?
Mr. DeWitt. Wisconsin.
Reference to United Farm Equipment and Metal Workers Union, CIO.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 771
Mr. Tavexxer. What branch of the CIO was it ?
Mr. DeWitt. I worked for the State CIO and the national CIO
both.
Mr. Tavenxer. For what period of time were you so employed ?
Mr. DeWitt. Two years with the State CIO and 1 year at the na-
tional CIO.
Mr. Tavexxer. That takes you back to about 1936 I
Mr. DeWitt. 1937.
Mr. Tavexxer. What was the nature of your employment prior to
1937?
Mr. DeWitt. Works Project Administration.
Mr. Tavexxer. What was the nature of your emplovment with the
WPA?
Mr. DeWitt. Timekeeper.
Mr. Tavexxer. Where \
Mr. DeWitt. Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavexxer. What branch or section of the WPA Avas it in which
you were employed \
Mr. DeWitt." I don't remember. It was just the WPA.
Mr. Tavexxer. What was the nature of your duties as timekeeper ?
Mr. DeWitt. Well, a timekeeper checks people in and off the job.
Mr. Tavexxer. That was actually in the field, those engaged in
work ?
Mr. DeWitt. That is right.
Mr. Tavex xer. How long were you so employed ?
Mr. DeWitt. About a year.
Mr. Tavenxer. Prior to that what was the nature of your employ-
ment ?
Mr. DeWitt. Unemployment.
Mr. Tavenxer. For how long ?
Mr. DeWitt. Since 1930.
Mr. Tavexxer. Do you recall in what district of the UE the gen-
eral area of Albany, N. Y., and Schenectady, N. Y., are included?
Mr. DeWitt. I don't get the question. What was that?
Mr. Tavexxer. Wisconsin you stated was in district 11 ?
Mr. DeWitt. Yes.
Mr. Tavexxer. What district of the UE would it be which would
have jurisdiction over the area of Albany, N. Y., and Syracuse and
Schenectady, N. Y. ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. I don't know.
Mr. Tavexxer. Do you know what district of the UE it would be
that has jurisdiction over Lynn, Mass. ?
Mr. DeWitt. I don't know. I have only worked in Wisconsin.
Mr. Tavexxer. That is true, but having been a field organizer of
UE for 6 years I would expect you to know something about the
organization outside of your own district.
Mr. DeWitt. A field organizer doesn't make policy for the union.
Mr. Tavexxer. I didn't ask you any question of policy. It is true,
is it not, that the field organizers from all over the UE jurisdictions are
transferred from one district to another as occasion requires it?
Mr. DeWitt. I have never been transferred.
Mr. Tavkxner. But you do know that field organizers in other dis-
tricts have from time to time been assigned to district No. 11?
772 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. DeWitt. They may have. I don't know.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what general area of the country is
embraced within district No. 9 of the UE ?
Mr. DeWitt. I think it is Indiana. I am not sure.
Mr. Tavenner. And Detroit, Mich. ?
Mr. DeWitt. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know who the president of district No. 9
is at the present time ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer on the grounds I cannot be com-
pelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. John Gojack is president ; is he not ?
Mr. DeWitt. Same answer.
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute. I think you should direct him to
answer that question, Mr. Chairman, as to whether he knows a fellow
union official.
Mr. Doyle. I will direct the witness to answer the question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. Same answer, the fifth amendment. It is my priv-
ilege.
Mr. Tavenner. In what district of the UE is the general area of
Ohio?
Mr. DeWitt. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Mr. Decavitch who was at
one time president of the district in which Ohio is a part ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. I never heard of the man.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. DeWitt, the committee has received consider-
able evidence in the areas which I have mentioned or from those areas.
In 1954 and also in 1953 James Davis, an organizer in UE with his
residence at Albany, N. Y., testified at length regarding Communist
Party activities among organizers of the UE in the general area of
Albany and also of Lynn, Mass. He gave the committee much valu-
able information on the subject.
Mr. Decavitch, who was president of his district of the UE in Ohio
was one of the early witnesses who appeared before this committee
back in 1949 or 1950 and gave this committee a great deal of valuable
information regarding the same subject in the area with which he was
familiar.
Now, due to the vast experience that you have had as an organizer,
both within the UE and one of the organizations which merged with
the UE to form the present organization, and also due to information
that the committee has regarding you, we are of the opinion that you
are in a position to give the committee equally valuable information
regarding the extent of the operations of the Communist Party in
district No. 11, or at least that part of it with which you are familiar,
the State of Wisconsin, and the methods used by the Communist
Party in that area, and in the field in which you are engaged.
I would like to call upon you to give the committee such facts as
are within your knowledge.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. Are you asking a specific question ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 773
Mr. Tavenner. I am asking you to cooperate with this committee
in giving the facts within your knowledge regarding the Communist
Party activities, extent of its operations and the methods of its opera-
tions among UE organizers in the State of Wisconsin.
First I will put the question in a general way. Are you aware of
any program of the Communist Party to exert its influence in that field
in district No. 11.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. I exercise my rights under the fifth amendment. I
cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself, decline to answer
your question. I am a labor organizer, remember.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. You say you are a labor organizer ?
Mr. De Witt. That is right. I have stated so before.
Mr. Scherer. And as such you have no knowledge of Communist
Party activities within the UE ?
Mr. De Witt. I exercise my rights under the fifth amendment,
decline to answer. I cannot be compelled to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Scherer. Then you are not only a labor organizer, are you?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. De Witt. Same answer.
Mr. Scherer. What do you mean by the same answer ?
Mr. De Witt. Fifth amendment, I cannot be compelled to be a
witness against myself.
Mr. Scherer. When you just said in response to one of the questions
Mr. Tavenner asked, that you were a labor organizer, did you mean
that that was your sole occupation and duty ?
Mr. De Witt. I previously stated what my occupation was. The
record will show.
Mr. Scherer. Do you not have another occupation and duty ?
(Counsel conferred with witness.)
Mr. DeWitt. Once more I have to invoke the fifth amendment.
(Counsel conferred with witness.)
Mr. De Witt. I cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Scherer. We assume from your answer, and we can draw no
other conclusion, but that you do have another occupation or activity
which is of a criminal or illegal nature.
Mr. De Witt. My asserting my rights under the fifth amendment
does not presume anything.
Mr. Scherer. It does not preclude us from drawing such conclusions
either.
Mr. De Witt. You gentlemen have the right to your own opinions.
Mr. Tavenner. Who is the president of district 11 ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. De Witt. Ernest DeMaio.
Mr. Tavenner. How many field organizers are there in district 11 ?
Mr. De Witt. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. How many are there in the State of Wisconsin?
Mr. DeWitt. Two.
Mr. Tavenner. We have heard testimony from Mr. James Davis,
the person I mentioned a little while ago, that it was the plan of the
Communist Party in Lynn, Mass., and also in upstate New York to
have the organizers of the UE meet in Communist Party meetings
774 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
prior to the district meetings that were held of the UE for the purpose
of discussing programs which they would endeavor to put into ettect
Did you ever meet in this area in a meeting of such a kind and for
such a purpose ?
(Counsel conferred with witness.)
Mr De Witt. I decline to answer on the grounds I cannot be com-
pelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment of
the United States Constitution. _
Mr Tavenner. Let us come down to the city of Milwaukee then.
As organizer of the UE in this area were you the senior representative
of the UE in the city of Milwaukee?
Mr. DeWitt. Tliere isn't any such thing. I am a held organizer
as I stated previouslv- . . , ...
Mr. Tavenner. As field organizer you are assigned to seniority
locals, are you not, to do organizational work in those locals ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer under the grounds 1 cannot be
compelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment of
the United States Constitution. .
Mr. Tavenner. What are your duties as an organizer ot the UE?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. The general duties of any organizer is to service the
locals, handle grievances, negotiate contracts and organize workers.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, the question was not the duties of any
organizer. We wanted to know what his duties were. That was the
question. , . TT_
Mr. DeWitt. The duties of an organizer in UE are identical to an
organizer of any organization; to handle grievances, negotiate con-
tracts and organize workers. m
Mr. Tavenner. You started to say service grievances in the locals.
What locals were under vour jurisdiction?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer. Under the fifth amendment 1
cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask you to direct the witness to
answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, Mr. DeWitt.
Mr'. DeWitt. The answer is the same. Under the fifth amendment
I cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Scherer. The question as I understand it is what locals were
under his jurisdiction. Is that right, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. sir.
Mr. Doyle. That is the question I directed him to answer.
Mr. DeWitt. I have declined to answer under the ground that
under the fifth amendment I cannot be compelled to be a witness
against myself . I restate that.
Mr. Scherer. Do you mean to tell this committee, Witness, that
after vou tell us here 'that vou were an organizer for the UE, that you
honestly believe it would incriminate you to tell us winch locals are
under your jurisdiction ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. I previously stated that I decline to answer on the
grounds that I cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself
under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 775
Mr. Tavenner. Do the locals which are under your jurisdiction
have bargaining contracts in plants which have defense contracts with
the United States ?
Mr. DeWitt. I don't know.
Mr. Tavexner. How many locals are there of the UE Avhich you
service as organizer?
(AVitness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. Once more I declare that I cannot be compelled to be
a witness against myself under the fifth amendment of the United
States Constitution. I decline to answer.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer the question as to how many locals are under his jurisdiction.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. DeWitt. The answer is the same. Under the fifth amendment
I decline to answer.
Mr. Scherer. I am at a loss, Mr. Chairman, to see how telling us
the number of locals that are under his jurisdiction, could possibly
incriminate this witness. It is obviously using the fifth amendment
in bad faith as so many of his kind do.
Mr. Doyle. I am at an equal loss. I do not know if Mr. DeWitt
was in the courtroom the first day of these hearings when I stated our
position in the matter with reference to unions. I want to read that
part of my statement again because I think it is apropos here possibly.
When we are questioning a witness whom we have reason to believe
is active in the Communist Party, either past or present, the fact that
he may be a union representative or member is no concern to us because
our job is to follow the Communist Party conspiracy wherever it leads.
Therefore I will read the part of the statement again :
The committee wants it understood in the conduct of its hearings it is not
interested in any dispute between employer or employees or between one union
or another. Neither is it interested in the internal affairs of any union. It pro-
poses, however, to follow and uncover if it can the Communist Party activities
of any person as to whom reliable information indicates Communist Party affilia-
tion, whether that be in the field of labor or of any other field.
I want to state again, because I know there are in the audience here
some guests who were not here yesterday, that we would not be ques-
tioning Mr. DeWitt along this line unless we believed we had reliable
information that he has been or is an active member of the Communist
Party.
The fact that he is a field representative of that great union does not
deter us from following the line of the communist conspiracy in its
effort to control the UE or any other union which they possibly can.
That, Mr. DeWitt, as you know, is the reason we are questioning
you. I am not undertaking to hurt the union in any way. I certainly
would not be sitting here as subcommittee chairman for 30 seconds if
that was the purpose of this committee, because I am always endorsed
for reelection by CIO and A. F. of L. — thank God not by the Com-
munist Party which you know and I know is trying to get its filthy
-lingers in control of an}^ labor union they can.
So I wish to reiterate that Congress will not be stopped nor deterred
from investigating and following through, if we can, the extent of
the Communist Party conspiracy and activity in the UE or any other
776 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
union where we have reliable information that that is what they have
been trying to do.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I think we should make this observa-
tion also at this time. In view of the questions that are being asked
by members of unions I think we should say that both the CIO and
the A. F. of L. have done a remarkable job in the past years in getting
rid of any Communist influence that may have raised its head (wit-
ness conferred with counsel) in those unions. They have been able
to do so in some instances as the result of testimony taken before this
committee and the committees of the Senate.
Mr. Doyle. I am glad you made that observation, Mr. Scherer, and
I wish to state here that while I do not have the text of Mr. Walter
Reuther's release of about a year ago, I remember having that text
before me when our committee hearings were held in Seattle, Wash.,
and I read that text in which Mr. Walter Reuther urged all members
of labor unions under CIO to cooperate with congressional committees
and if they possibly could, conscientiously, to refrain from using the
fifth amendment.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you aware of the fact, Mr. DeWitt, that the
headquarters of the Communist Party for the State of Wisconsin for
the past 6 years have been located in the city of Milwaukee?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer on the grounds I cannot be com-
pelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you personally acquainted with the chairman
of the Communist Party for the State of Wisconsin, Jack Kling, who
was succeeded by Sigmund Eisenscher ?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer on the grounds I cannot be com-
pelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment of the
United States Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Fred Blair, a functionary
of the Communist Party here ?
Mr. DeWitt. Same answer. Under the fifth amendment of the
United States Constitution I cannot be compelled to be a witness
against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you from time to time confer with any of these
individuals, those that I have asked you about, in connection with
the performance of your duties as a field organizer of the UE?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer. I cannot be compelled to be a
witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. We have the testimony here, Mr. DeWitt, that you
requested Mr. Michael Ondrejka to come to see you about a matter,
and that you addressed him throuh his wife, a well-known member
of the Communist Party in this area. Is that true or false ?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer. I cannot be compelled to be' a
witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you get in touch with the former Lil Rody, sub-
sequently the wife of Mr. Ondrejka ?
Air. DeWitt. The same answer. Under the fifth amendment I can-
not be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ondrejka testified to this committee that at a
social function of the Communist Party he was advised by the two
highest ranking Communist officials in the State of Wisconsin, one
being Jack Kling and the other being Fred Blair, that you wanted to
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 777
see him. We would be very much interested to know the circum-
stances under which you sought to interview Mr Ondrejka and com-
municated that desire through the head of the Communist Party of
the State of Wisconsin. If it be true will you tell us*
Mr DeWitt. I decline to answer. Under the fifth amendment 1
cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have a conference with Jack Klmg or * red
Blair with regard to Mr. Ondrejka? ,-,«!, i * t
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment. 1
cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself. m .
Mr Tavenner. Mr. Ondrejka has testified that after receiving the
su<rorestion from his wife and after having been directed by the two
executive heads of the Communist Party in the State of Wisconsin to
come to see you, he did go to see you on the following Tuesday, and
at that conference you indicated that you were expecting him. Did
you have such a conference with him ?
" Mr DeWitt. I decline to answer on the grounds that I cannot be
compelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment
of the United States Constitution. Thank God we got that amend-
Mr Tavenner. You mean thank God because you feel that you can
hide behind the fifth amendment and not give this committee the
answers to the important questions it is asking you.
Mr. DeWitt. Thank God the fifth amendment protects the innocent
as well as the guilty. ^ ^tt. _t . . .
Mr. Doyle. We will join you in that, Mr. DeWitt. We ]oin you m
that observation. ,
Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware that a young man by the name oi
Joe Preloznik who was in one of the local unions which you were
required to service as a field organizer of the UE was attending the
Marquette Labor School?
(Counsel conferred with witness.) m
Mr. DeWitt. I don't understand your question. What are you
asking me? ..
Mr? Tavenner. I say were you aware that Mr. Joe Preloznik was
attending the Marquette Labor School?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer. I cannot be compelled to be a
witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. 'We were, advised by Mr. Ondrejka that you did not
want this young man to be attending the school. Is that true or is it
false ?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment. I
cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ondrejka has testified that functionaries of the
Communist Partv after that time brought a great deal of pressure
upon him, Mr. Ondrejka, to appear before the union and do every-
thing he could to embarrass that young man and to discredit him be-
fore^the eyes of the rank-and-file members of local 1111. Did you
have any knowledge of that?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you partake in any way in the formulation of
a plan to injure that young man in his union?
Mr. DeWitt. Same answer under the fifth amendment. I cannot
be compelled to be a witness against myself.
778 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
(At this point, Mr. Scherer left the room.)
Mr. Tavenner. Are you at this time a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer on the grounds that 1 cannot be
compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer. The same answer under the fifth
amendment ; I cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party as
early as 1936 ?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer under the same provision as before,
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Sigmund G. Eisenscher testified before the com-
mittee that he was a candidate for Governor of the State of Wiscon-
sin. I am advised that he may have refused to testify to that. I
thought he had so testified ; but you know, do you not, that he was a
candidate for Governor in this State ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. Decline to answer under the fifth amendment; I can-
not be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. That is a matter of record in which his name was
on the ticket. There should be no reason for your declining to testify
as to something which is public knowledge. Will you reconsider your
answer ?
Mr. DeWitt. Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a document entitled, "Nomination
Paper."
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. I will ask you to state what it is.
(Document handed to witness :)
(At this point Mr. Scherer returned to the room.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. Well, it purports to be nomination papers, Independ-
ent and nonparty and candidates.
Mr. Tavenner. Eead it, please.
Mr. DeWitt. It purports to be [reading] :
Milwaukee, Wis., Governor, name of candidate : Sigmund G. Eisenscher.
Mr. Tavenner. Continue to read.
Mr. DeWitt. What else do you want me to read ? Should I read
the whole thing ?
Vocation : Salesman —
anything else ?
Mr. Tavenner. Keep reading.
Mr. DeWitt (reading) :
Resident post office address of nominee : 3131 West Wells Street, Milwaukee.
Principle represented : Communist.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you see your name as one of the signers of the
petition about three-quarters of the way down ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. I am reading here a name.
Mr. Tavenner. What is that name ?
Mr. DeWitt. It says, "James DeWitt."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 779
Mr. Tavenner. What address does it say that name has ?
Mr. DeWitt. "1621 West Wells Street."
Mr. Tavenner. Whose address is that?
Mr. DeWitt. I don't know. It purports to be this guy's address
here.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you live?
Mr. DeWitt. 1621 West Wells Street.
Mr. Tavenner. Same address. Are there two James DeWitts liv-
ing at that address ?
Mr. DeWitt. Not that I know of.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not know of any other one at that address
except yourself ?
Mr. DeWitt. I certainly don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you sign the petition ?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "DeWitt Exhibit No. 1," for identification pur-
poses only, and to be made a part of the committee files.
Mr. Doyle. It is so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "DeWitt Exhibit No. 1,"
received in evidence, and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the
time of the filing of this petition ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment. I
cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have questions, Congressman Willis ?
Mr. Willis. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have questions, Congressman Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. Just one moment.
Mr. Doyle. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. We had considerable testimony here, Mr. DeWitt
regarding the operation of the Civil Rights Congress. Were you one
of the original organizers of the Civil Eights Congress in this area?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer on the grounds that I cannot be
compelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. What is the status, Mr. Tavenner, of the Civil Eights
Congress ?
Mr. Tavenner. At the present time?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I would hesitate to testify on the
subject except to say that it is a cited organization.
Mr. Doyle. That is what I mean. It was cited when, and by whom ?
Mr. Tavenner. It was cited as subversive and Communist by At-
torney General Tom Clark bv letter released by him on December 4,
1947, and again September 21," 1948.
Cited as an organization formed in April 1946 as a merger of two other Com-
munist-front organizations (International Labor Defense and the National Fed-
eration for Constitutional Liberties) ; "dedicated not to the broader issues of
civil liberties, but specifically to the defense of individual Communists and the
Communist Party" and "controlled by individuals who are either members of
the Communist Party or openly loyal to it."
That was the citation by the Committee on Un-American Activities
Report No. 1115, September 2, 1947. When I stated what I did about
780 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
the present organization I thought you had reference to the present
organization here in the city of Milwaukee.
Mr. Doyle. I referred to the documented record.
Mr. Tavenner. I would hesitate to express any opinion about it.
We do have a witness subpenaed who is thought to be its present execu-
tive secretary.
Were you a member of the Civil Eights Congress?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment. I
cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you convicted of violating the corrupt prac-
tices law of the State of Wisconsin in 1947 with relation to a campaign
for election of Edmund Barberich, candidate for Congress from Mil-
waukee ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you carrying out in connection with that
offense for which vou were convicted any directives of the Communist
Party?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer on the grounds I cannot be com-
pelled to be a witness against myself under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Congressman Willis?
Mr. Willis. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Congressman Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. DeWitt, I wish to remark briefly to you what I have
said to other witnesses who claimed the fifth amendment. In doing so
may I make this observation in a preliminary way : I am very sure that
I, as a member of the United States Congress for going on 9 years now
in my native State of California, am only one of the large number of
men and women there who appreciate the great service which organized
labor has done and is doing toward raising the standards of living for
the working people of our great nation.
We are quite aware of the fact that the Communist Party conspiracy
in this country is part and parcel of the same conspiracy that is world-
wide. When I was last in Europe and Asia for Congress officially, I
was privileged to ask many American ambassadors, American consuls
and foreign intelligence, and our own American intelligence whether
or not, in their judgment, there is any connection between the military
and subversive aggression in Korea and Indonesia and other parts of
the world emanating from the Soviet Union and the same subversive
conspiracy in the United States of America, and they all told me it was
one and the same program to try to ultimately take over the economic,
social, and political control of the whole world.
I make that statement to you, sir, because you are reputed to be one
of the most able and most active organizers in the field of UE. There-
fore, you are in a position to do more good than most men and also
more harm.
Therefore, I just want to say very sincerely, but vigorously, to you,
why do you not get out of any connection you have directly or indi-
rectly with the Communist Party and Communist conspiracy ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 781
Mr. Doyle. I would not say that, if we did not think we had a record
as a tie-in between you and it. I pray you to get out of that sort of
connection if it still continues this morning and do all you can to
strengthen the bonds of democracy within the great UE organization,
instead of doing anything that would lead any of your members to
think less of our great Nation by reason of emphasizing what the Com-
munist conspiracy does and which was reflected last night by one of
the known Communists in this room when he went out of this room
and called the witness fee, $6 which is allowed by Congress, a scab*
I should think the red blood of any patriotic American would rise up
and so sharply discountenance that sort of conduct on the part of any
American that he would find it entirely too hot to be allowed to stay
in organized labor in any connection.
So I want to tell you, Mr. DeWitt, as I have the other witnesses
who have pleaded the fifth amendment, that we fight for the fifth
amendment perhaps more than any other group in the country unless
it be the courts or the bar associations.
I want to urge you to get out of the Communist conspiracy if you
still maintain this morning any contact with it whatsoever, direct or
indirect, and put your native ability as a great union leader toward
strengthening the sinews of organized labor instead of letting the
Communist conspiracy get ahold any further than they have.
Wipe it out. Erase it.
I want to ask you just one question : Did you ever participate in the
Communist Party caucus in connection with the elections or program
of the UE in Wisconsin prior to the holding of the elections?
Mr. DeWitt. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment. I
cannot be compelled to be a witness against myself, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. That is all.
Mr. DeWitt. Mr. Chairman, you have said I am in a position to do
a great deal of good. Thousands of people in the State of Wisconsin
will testify to the good I have done for them. That represents the
policy of the union I work for.
Mr. Doyle. We compliment you on all of the non-Communist pro-
grams which the UE and you have fostered. I compliment you on
them, but to the extent which you have been a part directly or indi-
rectly of cooperating or furthering the Communist program in the
State of Wisconsin and the UE, I condemn that activity and I con-
demn UE for allowing it if they have.
Mr. DeWitt. Mr. Chairman, I have been in the labor union for
18 years. I stay there because the people want me there because I
have <fone a lot of good for those people.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much. The witness is excused.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. John Gilman.
Mr. Essin. May I say for Mr. Gilman's attorney, Mr. Brawley,
that he was sitting next to me in the afternoon and he wasn't here
when the chairman of the committee made his announcement about,
when the hearing would start this morning.
Mr. Tavenner. I have been told that he is here now.
Mr. Oilman. My attorney will be here [displaying medal collec-
tion].
Mr. Doyle. Just put that under cover, sir. We are not going to
allow this to be a sideshow. That is not involved in this hearing.
782 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Gilman. I will put it under cover. I want it to be next to me.
Mr. Doyle. We are not going to allow you to come here and make a
sideshow.
Mr. Gilman. May I sit down, sir ?
Mr. Doyle. Not just yet. Go back until we call on you.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you want a few more minutes before we call
Mr. Gilman. It is perfectly all right. My attorney is parking his
car and will be here any moment.
Mr. Doyle. I think you will need an attorney. We will wait until
he gets here. We will take 5 minutes' recess.
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will reconvene.
The record will show that all committee members are present.
Is Mr. Gilman's legal counsel here ?
Mr. Brawley. Yes, I am his counsel.
Mr. Doyle. Is your client here ?
Mr. Brawley. I assume so.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Tavenner, are you ready ?
Come forward, Mr. Gilman. Will you raise your right hand and
be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gilman. I do, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN GILMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY GEORGE R.
BRAWLEY, COUNSEL
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Gilman. My name, sir, is John Gilman.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel.
Would counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Brawley. George R. Brawley, 623 North Second Street.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Gilman?
Mr. Gilman. I was born on September 16, 1920, in a town called
Chester, Pa.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Milwaukee ?
Mr. Gilman. I am, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you move to Milwaukee ?
Mr. Gilman. I moved to Milwaukee in 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee is informed that prior to that time
you were a member of the armed services of the United States and
you served with distinction for 9 months in Europe ; you were a ma-
chinegunner ; you were awarded the Distinguished Service Cross with
Silver Star, a combat infantryman's badge, the Purple Heart, and
the Distinguished Unit Citation. That is true, is it not ?
Mr. Gilman. That is partially true, sir. There are other unit cita-
tions and other awards which weren't included.
Mr. Doyle. Tell us the other awards you were given.
Mr. Gilman. Is that a question? I mean do you insist on that?
Is that an insistence ?
Mr. Doyle. We believe you want to tell us, so go ahead.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 783
Mr. Oilman. There are 4 combat stars awarded for 4 distinct battles.
The Rhineland, the invasion of Normandy — I am not giving them in
order, sir — Central Europe and northern France. There is also a regi-
mental citation which was read to the troops, and there is also a battle-
ground citation which was read to the troops of which I have been able
to get copies while overseas which I didn't bring with me or didn't
feel it was necessary to make a record of that to the committee.
There is a clasp with the Good Conduct Medal, and I might say in
this regard that some people don't value the Good Conduct Medal or
they don't think it is too valuable in the Army because it is a matter of
practice for an average soldier to get the Good Conduct Medal. I
valued the Good Conduct Medal because it also includes fidelity. I
got that with a clasp which means 2 Good Conduct Medals.
There was also — did you mention the Presidential Citation ? That
is a distinguished unit citation. You did mention that, sir. You men-
tioned the Purple Heart and the cluster.
Mr. Tavexxer. Yes, I mentioned the Purple Heart but not the
cluster.
Mr. Gilmax. That is an additional Purple Heart.
I think that just about covers my citations outside of other parts of
my Army record.
Mr. Tavexner. That is a very full and distinguished record.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Counsel, may I make this clear to this distinguished
veteran, that Congress is always glad to recognize not only men that
have been decorated in war, but any man who served patriotically in
war whether he was decorated or not. Some of us have knowledge of
boys who fought so that men like you might live and in order that we
might live. We in Congress conceive it is the veteran's duty to come
home and be patriotic in peace as well as to serve and win medals
in time of war.
We are glad you are here, and now our legal counsel will question
you on what we find our duty in peacetime, Mr. Gilman, which is to
get your cooperation and your help as a decorated veteran in uncover-
ing groups of people who would subvert and destroy our Nation which
you fought to preserve.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Scherer. These citations were all in the Second World War,
were they not, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavexxer. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. That was when we were a cobelligerent with Com-
munist Russia against Nazi Germany, was it not ?
Mr. Tavexxer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Gilman, the committee has received testimony as to the activities
of Josephine Nordstrand as head of the Civil Rights Congress in the
city of Milwaukee, and the committee has information that you suc-
ceeded her as the executive secretary of that organization, and that
you are presently the executive secretary of it. Am I correct, in that
you are the present executive secretary ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Gilmax. Mr. Counsel or Mr. Chairman, with all due respect to
the lawmaking body, the House of Representatives and to all our in-
stitutions in our Nation, and to our Constitution and our Bill of Rights,
I will have to answer that question in a refusal on the basis of the fifth
amendment because such an answer may tend to incriminate me.
784 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Gilman, have you been associated in Milwaukee
with the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Counsel or/and Mr. Chairman, distinguished col-
leagues, with all due respect to our American institutions, including
the House of Representatives and the Senate and the President and
the Judiciary and our Constitution and the Bill of Rights I will in-
voke amendment No. 5 on the basis that I cannot answer that question.
It may tend to incriminate me.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Did you ask the witness about his educational back-
ground ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir, I have not done so yet.
Mr. Gilman, the committee was very much interested in Eisenscher
Exhibit No. 1 which is an application for post office box which was
used by Communist Party headquarters for the State of Wisconsin.
The date of that application was as late as September 30, 1954. As
a result of the filing of that application Mr. Eisenscher was assigned
box No. 1088. He gave your name as one of the references at the
time he made that application.
I hand you a photostatic copy of a card
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Purporting to be verification of reference of appli-
cant for box bearing date of August 30, 1954.
Will you look at it, please 'l
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. WTill you state whether or not it is your verification
of Mr. Sigmimd G. Eisenscher
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. By reason of his having given you as a reference ?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Counselor, Mr. Chairman, I refuse to answer that
question on the very same basis that I have stated before ; that it may
tend to incriminate me, article V, Bill of Rights.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the document again, please, and
state whether or not you see a signature at the bottom of it ?
Mr. Gilman. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You do see one ?
Mr. Gilman. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the name appearing there ?
Mr. Gilman. You wish me to read from the document ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Gilman. I will do so. "John Gilman."
Mr. Tavenner. It is in handwriting ; is it not ?
Mr. Gilman. It appears to be so.
Mr. Tavenner. There is no doubt about that ; is there ?
Mr. Gilman. No, there is no doubt in my mind that it is hand-
writing.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it your handwriting ?
Mr. Gilman. I wouldn't swear to it. I couldn't say.
. Mr. Tavenner. You mean your are doubtful as to whether or not
that is your signature ?
Mr. Gilman. I refuse to answer that question, Mr. Counselor. I
couldn't say. It may be.
Mr. Doyle. Why do you not come out and give an honest to God
truthful answer ? You know whether or not it is. Why do you not
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 785
help your Government ? This is a straight across-the-table question.
Why do you hedge on it ? Why do you not tell counsel whether or not
it is?
Mr. Gilman. My answer to that, Mr. Chairman, is I stand on my
constitutional rights. I do not wish to be incriminated by my own
testimony and that is why we have the fifth amendment which I am
invoking.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Mr. Sigmund G. Eisen-
scher on August 30, 1954 ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Counselor, Mr. Chairman, I wish to state that I
refuse to answer this question on the same basis that I just answered
the previous question, article V of the Bill of Eights, on the basis that
such an answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know on August 30, 1954, that Mr. Sig-
mund Eisenscher was the chairman of the Communist Party for the
State of Wisconsin ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Chairman, I am once again invoking the fifth
amendment on my answer to that question on the basis that it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Doyle. This is the document, is it not, where I think the witness
was asked about the signature, and he said it may be. Is that the one ?
Mr. Gilman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. You verified that instrument, Witness ?
Mr. Gilman. I verified nothing, sir. I just said it may be.
Mr. Doyle. You ought to know your own signature.
Mr. Tavenner. This verification card is for the purpose, Mr. Chair-
man, of obtaining this information.
"Will you kindly advise this office if, in your judgment, the applicant
is responsible and trustworthy." The document is signed as indi-
cated by the witness.
Did you at any time serve on a commission of the Communist Party
which had for its purpose the disciplining of a member of the Com-
munist Party even by expulsion if necessary ?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Counselor, I am invoking article
V of the Bill of Rights on the basis that any answer I might give may
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you one of a group called the security commis-
sion of the Communist Partv in the city of Milwaukee at any time
since 1950?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Counselor, Mr. Chairman, I am invoking the fifth
amendment for the same reason, that I previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you 1 of 2 or 3 persons who expelled Merle
Snyder from the Communist Party in 1950?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Counselor, Mr. Chairman, I am invoking the fifth
amendment for the same previous reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Mr. Merle Snyder was given
an opportunity to answer charges preferred by the Communist Party
or given any semblance of a trial ?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Counselor, Mr. Chairman, I am invoking article V
of the Bill of Rights on the basis it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you grant Mr. Snyder any rights of any kind in
the matter then deemed very important to him ?
63796 — 55— pt. 2 G
786 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Gilman. My prgvious answer was that I invoked the Bill of
Rights, the fifth amendment. It is my present answer for the same
vpn Coil
Mr. Doyle. You had better be careful. You will overwork that fifth
amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you deny, Witness, that you knew Merle Snyder I
(Witness conferred with counsel. )
Mr. Ghman. I have the same answer as the previous question, sir,
the fifth amendment on the basis it may tend to incriminate me. .
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Snyder, would you stand up, please? Witness,
would you look at that gentleman to your left ?
Mr. Doyle. Do not plead the amendment as to whether or not to
take a look at him.
(Witness conferred with counsel. ) *
Mr. Doyle. You have not looked at him yet.
[Witness turns.]
Mr. Scherer. Would you tell us how well you knew him?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Gilman. I state as I stated before I stand on my constitutional
grounds. I am invoking the fifth amendment on the basis that any
answer might tend to incriminate me along that line.
Mr. Scherer. The fact is that you knew Merle Snyder while both
of you were members of the Communist Party, did you not ?
Mr. Gilman. Is that a question, sir ?
Mr. Scherer. Is that not a fact ? That is my question.
Mr. Gilman. I invoke the fifth amendment for the previous reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with James R. Eggleston ?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Counselor, Mr. Chairman, I am citing the fifth
amendment as a reason for not answering that question on the basis
that any testimony I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Eggleston identified you as a person known to
him to have been a member of the Communist Party. Do you desire
to refute that or explain it in any way ?
Mr. Gilman. I stand on my constitutional grounds in refusing to
answer that question, sir, by invoking article V of the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time while you were affiliated with the Civil Rights Congress?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Counsel, and Mr. Chairman, I am invoking the
fifth amendment in refusing to answer that question on the basis that
any answer that I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Scherer. Was Mr. Eggleston's testimony about your connec-
tion with the Communist conspiracy false?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Scherer, I am invoking article V of the Bill of
Rights in my answer to that question and my reason was stated pre-
viously.
Mr. Scherer. You knew Jim Eggleston well, did you not?
Mr. Gilman. I am invoking article V of the Bill of Rights on
the same answer that I stated previously.
Mr. Scherer. I understand here that you are not denying any of
the testimony that Jim Eggleston gave about you, are you ?
Mr. Gilman. Is that a question, sir?
Mr. Scherer. That is a question. You understand.
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Scherer, I am invoking the fifth amendment for
the same previous reason.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 787
Mr. Scherer. Look to your left, there, at the gentleman seated
'closest to you.
Mr. Doyle. Look at him before you plead the amendment.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Oilman. I was conferring with counsel.
Mr. Doyle. You have a perfect right to do so. He is a very dis-
tinguished counsel. I am glad you are here, counsel.
Mr. Scherer. Stand up, Jim.
Mr. Gilman. Oh.
Mr. Doyle. I notice that you were surprised at who it was.
Mr. Gilman. No ; I was surprised because he was right next to me
and I was looking back there, sir.
Mr. Scherer. You know Jim Eggleston, do you not?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Scherer, I am invoking the fifth amendment for
the same previous reasons.
Mr. Scherer. You knew Jim Eggleston when both of you were
active in the Communist Party, did you not? The only thing you
did not know was that he was an undercover agent for the FBI, is
that right?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Scherer, with all due respect to your office I am
invoking my constitutional right of the fifth amendment in answer
to that question for the same previous reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you come to Milwaukee in 1947 ?
Mr. Gilman. That is right, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What had been your educational training prior to
your coming to Milwaukee?
Mr. Gilman. When I was 6 years old
Mr. Tavenner. You need not go back that far. Do you have col-
lege training?
Mr. Gilman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Where?
Mr. Gilman. I attended the University of Wisconsin and I re-
ceived the bachelor of science degree and I also attended the graduate
school for one-half year.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you obtain your degree at Wisconsin ?
Mr. Gilman. I obtained my degree of bachelor of science, I believe
it was in 1948, February, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your specialty in the postgraduate
school ? What were you specializing in ?
Mr. Gilman. I entered the university earlier in 1938 and engaged
in 1 year of engineering, mechanical engineering. I returned from
the Army and switched over, changed my course to letters and science,
majoring in economics.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you follow the same field in your post-graduate
studies ?
Mr. Gilman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Then in 1948 or 1949 you returned to Milwaukee ?
Mr. Gilman. I returned to Milwaukee in May, the latter part at
the end of my post-graduate semester of 1948, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you become employed after your return
to Milwaukee ?
Mr. Gilman. I opened up a floor-covering establishment when I
came to Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you still engaged in the same business?
788 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE> WIS., AREA
Mr. Gilman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. What is the name of that business ?
Mr. Gilman. The Allied Linoleum Store, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Was the address of that store the address you gave
when you maybe signed that post office verification ?
Mr. Gilman. I am not familiar with the address, sir.
Mr. Doyle. You saw the address on the post office verification when
you said maybe that was your signature. I would like to know
whether that was the address of your store or your residence.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Will you refresh the witness' memory as to the address
that is on the verification, please, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir ; 1860 North Prospect Avenue.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Was that your residence at that time or your store at
that time ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think the address which I have
given is indicated on the application by Mr. Eisenscher as his address
rather than the address of this witness. There is no address of this
witness on the document I asked him to identify.
Mr. Doyle. All right, thank you ; my mistake.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted, Mr. Gilman, that you are a person who
has had considerable educational advantages, that you have been in
business for yourself from the very termination of your educational
training until the present time. There is no record of any unemploy-
ment in your case or any difficulty in obtaining work to do. I want to
ask you whether or not you became a member of the Communist Party
before you came to Milwaukee ?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Counselor, Mr. Chairman, I am invoking the fifth
amendment of our Bill of Rights on the basis that what I might say
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become a member of the Communist Party
in Dane County, Wis. ?
Mr. Gilman. I am invoking the very same amendment, sir, for the
very same reason to that question, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Young Progressives of
America while in attendance at the University of Wisconsin ?
Mr. Gilman. I am invoking the fifth amendment to that question,
sir, on the grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Gilman. I am invoking article V of the Bill of Rights for the
same reason as I stated previously.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time ?
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Counselor, and Mr. Chairman, I am invoking
article V of the Bill of Rights for the same reason as previously men-
tioned two questions back.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Congressman Willis?
Mr. Willis. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Congressman Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Both Sid Berman and Sigmund Eisenscher were em-
ployed by you ; were they not ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 789
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Gilman. Mr. Scherer, I am invoking article V of the Bill of
Eights to my refusal to answer that question on the grounds that any
testimony I may give in that matter may tend to incriminate me, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Gilman. I am standing on my constitutional grounds, article
V of the Bill of Rights, on the basis that any answer I may give may
tend to incriminate me, sir.
Mr. Doyle. If the Communist conspiracy had its way there would
not be any article V of the Bill of Rights and you know it.
Have you any other question, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Gilman, I want to be as brief as I can, but I want
to say that every time you pleaded the fifth amendment this gold star
on my coat just wanted to come off, it was so ashamed of a distinguished
veteran like you, according to your record, being a member of the Com-
munist Party ; then you come in here and plead the fifth amendment
after receiving those decorations at the hands of your Government for
your distinguished service.
I want to say just a word or two to this man. I think I have a right
to. I am speaking for all the fathers that lost their sons in the war.
I cannot understand, sir, how in the world you could come home from
those battles and keep identified with the Communist conspiracy after
you saw what you must have seen overseas. I am not going to take ad-
vantage of this sort of occasion to preach to you because you cannot
answer back too well. I understand that. But I would like to talk
to you when we were not in this courtroom.
Mr. Gilman. Well, sir, may I ask you a question ?
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead.
Mr. Gilman. Could I at some time in the future write you a letter
of what I think about my war record ? Would that be all right?
Mr. Doyle. I am not interested in your war record. You have the
material evidence. For one reason or another you were decorated
several times. I know some boys that were decorated both while they
were alive and after they were killed in war ; so do not talk to me about
your war record. It is a peace record I am interested in. [Applause.]
You come back here and you habitually practice infiltration into
groups ; you take that picture frame of medals with you and display it
on the platform of places where you speak just as you tried to display
it here when you first came in. I do not see any humility about that.
Mr. Gilman. I sacrificed my life for that.
Mr. Doyle. You did not sacrifice your life. You are dead alive.
One word more, please. I am trying to say this so that yon will
never forget it as long as you live. Why don't you in God's name get
out of that combination of Communist activity and direct your hu-
mility and your service in the interests of your own great Nation that
gave you those decorations and gave you the chance to immediately
come back home here to make a fine living in your Allied Linoleum
Co. ? Why do you not quit hiring these men that are known to you as
Communists and Communist leaders? Why do you not refuse to?
Why do you not clean your own skirts and get a medal for peace in-
stead of war?
I think that is all, Mr. Counsel.
790 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. George L. Sommers.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand? Do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Sommers. I do.
Mr. Doyle. I might state to counsel that Mr. Gilman gave me a
copy of a press release after he was dismissed from the subpena. The
press release was very short, but his record of medals won in the war
was very long. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE L. SOMMERS, ACCOMPANIED BY M. MICHAEL
ESSIN, COUNSEL
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please sir ?
Mr. Sommers. George Lewis Sommers.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that the witness is accompanied by coun-
sel. Will you identify yourself, please ?
Mr. Essin. Counsel for Mr. Sommers is M. Michael Essin, attorney,
623 North Second Street, Milwaukee 3, Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Sommers?.
Mr. Somers. Minneapolis, Minn., 1918, August 23.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Sommers. 5631 South 45th Street, Malwaukee 15, Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your present occupation ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. Maltster.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to Milwaukee ?
Mr. Sommers. You mean for permanent residence ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Sommers. The very first week probably of January 1944, al-
though I did live here for a couple of months in 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your ed-
ucational training has been ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. Grade school and high school.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your occupation before coming to Mil-
waukee in 1944 and prior ?
Mr. Sommers. Prior?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, before 1944. Were you in the Armed Forces
of the United States?
Mr. Sommers. No ; I wasn't,
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to coming to Milwaukee what was your em-
ployment ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. Well, Mr. Chairman, I have had quite a few jobs
and done a lot of things. Do you want me to work backward or start
at the beginning?
Mr. Tavenner. Let us go backward and we will quit when we go
too far.
Mr. Sommers. Before I was employed in the Malt House I worked
for a well -drilling company. Part of the time — you see we go out on
jobs — at Whitewater.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was your residence at that time ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 791
Mr. Sommers. Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say that you came to Milwaukee
in 1044, January 1944?
Mr. Sommers. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I asked you what your employment was before
1944, before you came to Milwaukee.
Mr. Sommers. Well, as I previously stated, I was here for a couple
of months in 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. Let us skip the couple of months. Other than that
how were you employed and where did you reside ?
Mr. Sommers. Well, I lived in Minneapolis.
I had better start from the very beginning of where I started work-
ing. Otherwise I will get all mixed up.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Not too much in detail, just in a general way.
Mr. Sommers. In Burlington, Iowa, for about a year for Iowa Ord-
nance plant.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that ?
Mr. Sommers. In 1941 1 am quite sure.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. After that I went to Oakland, Calif., and worked for
a while in a foundry as a sand tester, and then I went to the shipyards
in Oakland, Calif., and worked as a trainee welder and I left Oakland
and went back to Minneapolis and worked as a welder for Brown Steel
Tank Co.
Then I signed up and I went on a job on the Alaskan Highway for
E. W. Elliott Co. I was hired in Minneapolis, but their office is in
Seattle, I believe it is. After that I came back and went back to work
at Brown Steel Tank, I think.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that in Minneapolis ?
Mr. Sommers. Yes. Then — let's see. I believe then I came to Mil-
waukee for a short period of time and I worked at, I think this was in
1943 I worked for Allis-Chalmers for about I would imagine 3 weeks
or maybe a little longer, and then I quit there and went to a job in
Canada.
I worked for Al Johnson Construction Co. They hired out of New
York, but I got the job in Minneapolis. I went to an airbase. Then I
came back to Minneapolis and came back to Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. You have been engaged in brewery work since 1944,
then, up to the present time ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. What do you mean by brewery work ?
Mr. Tavenner. Did you not indicate that your occupation was of a
type that you were employed in a brewery? Maybe I do not know
enough about it to know.
Mr. Sommers. No ; I did not. It is a malting company.
Mr. Tavenner. I see. What position did you take in January 1944?
Was it this same thing ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed in 1944 when you first
came here ?
Mr. Sommers. Oh, in 1944, 1 think I went to Schlitz and if I get this
right now I worked there, I would say, about possibly 3 Aveeks, maybe
792 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
a little longer; and then I heard about a job, it was advertised in the
papers here. So I went down and applied for it. It was at Hanford,
Wash.
Mr. Tavenner. How long ?
Mr. Sommers. Gosh, not too long. Possibly a month.
Mr. Tavenner. Let us proceed a little more rapidly if we can.
Mr. Sommers. Then I came back to Milwaukee and went down to the
employment office and got a job with a well-drilling company. Then
after that, in November 9, 1944, 1 got a job with my present employer
and I have been there ever since.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there any labor union in the malting company
in which you were employed which had bargaining rights with that
company?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that union ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. Do you want to know what the union is now ?
Mr. Tavenner. What it was then while you were employed there.
Mr. Sommers. They have changed their affiliation since then.
Mr. Tavenner. Give us what it was then and what it is now.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. I can't remember what it was exactly. I think it was
independent at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. What is it now ?
Mr. Sommers. It is the A. F. of L.-CIO local 9.
Mr. Tavenner. Local 9, United Brewery Workers.1 Is that not the
name of it ?
Mr. Sommers. Yes ; I believe it is.
Mr. Tavenner. Why, you know it is ; do you not ?
Mr. Sommers. Yes ; I know it is.
Mr. Tavenner. Local 9. How long has it had that designation?
You say it was changed from an independent to the United Brewery
Workers of the CIO?
(Counsel conferred with witness.)
Mr. Sommers. I am not sure, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. When did that occur ?
Mr. Sommers. I am not sure.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. It has been a number of years ago, hasn't it?
Mr. Sommers. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Sommers, the committee is well aware of the
anti-Communist character of the United Brewery Workers.
(Counsel conferred with witness.)
It is hard for us to understand that that organization has knowingly
permitted anyone to be an officer of its organization who is known to
them to be a member of the Communist Party. What office did you
hold in the union ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
1 Reference to International Union of United Brewery, Flour, Cereal, Soft Drink, and
Distillery Workers of America — CIO.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 793
Mr. Sommers. Mr. Chairman, counsel, the thing I am thinking
about is I was a delegate to the CIO council. That is not a constitu-
tional office.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; that is my error. You were a delegate to the
CIO council?
Mr. Sommers. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. In what years ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. I am not sure, Mr. Chairman.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. I think it was around 1949 and 1950. I am not sure.
Mr. Tavenner. What I am getting around to is that we have a feel-
ing that if you were a member of the Communist Party at any time
as has been testified to here before this committee, that you are prob-
ably no longer a member of the Communist Party and I want to call
on you to cooperate with this committee to give it such facts as you
may have within your knowledge during the period you were a mem-
ber, if you were a member.
You are not a member of the Communist Party now, are you ?
(Counsel conferred with witness.)
Mr. Sommers. Mr. Chairman, on the grounds that anything I may
say — I cannot be made to testify against myself, fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. You were a member of the Communist Party at the
time you were on the CIO council, though, were you not ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. On the grounds that anything I say may tend to in-
criminate me I use the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. You were expelled as a member of the CIO council,
were you not?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. On the ground that anything I say may tend to in-
criminate me, fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it not because of your Communist Party affilia-
tions at that time that you were expelled by the CIO county council ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. On the ground that anything I say may tend to in-
criminate me I cannot be made to testify against myself, fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. But in recent years your affiliation with the Com-
munist Party has been very slight, has it not ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. Mr. Counselor, Mr. Tavenner, on the grounds that
anything I say may tend to incriminate me, I refuse to answer the ques-
tion based on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. During the year 1949 according to the testimony in-
troduced before this committee, during these hearings, you were a
member of the East Side section of the Communist Party in Milwaukee.
Is that testimony false?
Mr. Sommers. On the grounds that I cannot be made to testify
against myself I use the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you not a member of the East Side section of
the Communist Party?
Mr. Sommers. The' answer is the same as the previous answer, fifth
amendment.
794 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Sommers. On the grounds that anything I say may tend to in-
criminate me I refuse to answer the question ; fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have questions, Congressman Willis?
Mr. Willis. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Congressman Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. I think I will share with you, Witness, what Mr.
Scherer, the distinguished Congressman from Ohio said to me just
now while we were listening to your testimony and reading your
testimony in connection with the written document we have about
your former activities in the Communist Party.
He said, "I have a feeling that this witness, if he is not already
out of the Communist Party wishes he were and will get out." That
is confidential between us two Congressmen but you are entitled to
know it, and I am telling you for this reason :
Why do you not join the increasing number of American }roung
men and women who are cooperating with Congress in this difficult
field and come clean and offer your services to Congress to ferret out
this Communist conspiracy here in Milwaukee? We invite you to
join that increasing number of men and women that have come to
the point where they sense that their highest duty is to their Nation
instead of to the Communist Party. We invite you to do that, to make
up your mind pretty suddenly to do that very thing and turn your
talents toward that.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I make a further suggestion ?
I am so convinced that the committee members are right in their feel-
ings about it that I believe this witness ought to be given an opportun-
ity to consider his position further and come back if he desires before
this committee finishes its hearing today and set himself straight.
Mr. Willis. Mr. Tavenner, I think you were very fair, extremely
fair.
Young man, you were given every opportunity by implication of
the questions. He practically told you that he believed that you are
probably not now a Communist and maybe you have made a mistake
in the past. I think it would be a wonderful thing if you got out
for honest reasons. I really do. You would do yourself, the Govern-
ment, your coworkers, your community, your church as you probably
have one, and yourself and wife and children if you have any, a real
service.
I would take advantage of that offer.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, would you be interested in first testifying
in executive session ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. I think that perhaps if there were not some people
in this courtroom this man would testify. That is the reason I suggest
that he might want to testify in executive session.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. Mr. Chairman, on the grounds that anything I say
may tend to incriminate me I refuse to answer the question Mr.
Scherer directed to me based on the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 795
Mr Doyle. It is just another case where we have gone out of the
way and we are glad to do so where there is any chance in the world
to get the cooperation of a citizen who we believe regrets tne connec-
tion and wants to get out of it.
We have done all over the Nation just what we have done with
vou, Witness. . _r . ,, , .-
~ Mr Scherer. I am thoroughly convinced, Mr. Chairman, that it
there were not certain influences in this hearing room, this witness
would and could tell us a lot about the efforts of the Communist
Party to infiltrate here. • _
Mr Doyle. You are dismissed from the subpena, but 1 want to
renew our invitation. I will make the same invitation to anyone that
happens to hear my voice, that if you have any desire to cooperate
with the committee the way it has been working in performing its
duty, contact immediately Mr. Tavenner, our distinguished counsel,
or Mr. Jones, one of our investigators and we will try to hear you this
afternoon or tonight.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sommers. Mr. Doyle, I have two subpenas, one for April i.
Mr. Doyle. Just forget the April 4 one.
Mr. Sommers. Thank you.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Doyle. We will take a recess for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in order after this recess and
let the record show that the three members of the subcommittee are
all present.
I want to again thank the guests of the committee m the courtroom
for your very considerate attention. The courtroom is full and over-
flowing. We realize that it is not comfortable to stand m this warm
room hour after hour.
On behalf of the committee and staff I want you to know that we
appreciate your remaining as quiet as possible. We will finish our
hearings sometime this afternoon.
You might be interested to know who the young man was who came
to the desk just now and greeted me and the other members of the
committee. He is one of a group of Marquette University students.
The group has been in the courtroom off and on during these 3 days.
They are studying the operation of their own congressional committees.
I want to compliment the students on coming here and furthering
their education. We feel it is very important that all American citi-
zens learn everything they can about their own Government and how
it operates. So it is refreshing to find this group of university students
who are going out of their way to come here and study how this con-
gressional committee operates because, after all, we men are their
Congressmen as well as the Representatives for each of our congres-
sional districts. .
Most people do not realize the Members of Congress are United
States Representatives who happen to be elected from their respective
districts.
Mr. Tavenner, are you ready ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Harry Virgil.
796 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Virgil. I do.
Mr. Doylle. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF HARRY VIRGIL, ACCOMPANIED BY M. MICHAEL
ESSIN, COUNSEL
Mr. Tavenner. Let the record show that the witness is accompanied
by the same counsel who accompanied the preceding witness.
Will you state your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Virgil. Harry Virgil.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Virgil ?
Mr. Virgil. Mt. Carmel, 111., January 20, 1911.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Virgil. Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Milwaukee ?
Mr. Virgil. Since 1932. I will correct that, Mr. Chairman. I
believe it was 1933 rather than 1932.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Virgil. Salesman.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you served in the Armed Forces of the United
States?
Mr. Virgil. No, sir. Pardon. I would like to consult with my
attorney on one thing. I think I have given a correct answer.
Mr. Tavenner. All right.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Virgil. I want to add to that, Mr. Tavenner, that for I think
a period of about a year I did serve in the National Guard of Illinois.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has been ?
Mr. Virgil. High school and a few subjects at night school in
college.
Mr. Tavenner. You came to Milwaukee in 1933 ?
Mr. Virgil. I think approximately.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you first employed upon coming to Mil-
waukee?
Mr. Virgil. Salesman.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that the same employment that you are now en-
gaged in ?
Mr. Virgil. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you begin, say, with 1940 and tell us what
your employment has been since that time ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Virgil. From 1940 up until 1946 or 1947 — again I am not sure —
I was employed as an organizer for various CIO unions and after
leaving there I went to work in a plant, worked a year and a half.
Mr. Tavenner. What plant?
Mr. Virgil. Unit Crane & Shovel.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that a plant in which the CIO had bargaining
rights at the time?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Virgil. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 797
Mr. Tavenner. What were the CIO unions which you were or-
ganizer for ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Virgil. Various unions. I am not sure of the chronology of it.
They were packinghouse
Mr. Tavenner. What date ?
Mr. Virgil. Well, there is where I am confused on dates. Packing-
house workers was one. I believe that I worked for the retail clerks
subsequent to 1940 but I am not sure because I left there around that
time. The woodworkers ; x Food, tobacco and agricultural workers. 2
Mr. Tavenner. That was over a period of how long ?
Mr. Virgil. Oh, roughly 5, 6 years.
Mr. Tavenner. You would say from 1942 up through 1947 or 1948?
Mr. Virgil. No, 1946 or 1947 was the termination date, I know.
Mr. Tavenner. After 1947 how were you employed ?
Mr. Virgil. Well, as I stated before I was in this plant, the Unit
Crane & Shovel. I was laid off there in the late fall or early winter.
Again, the year I am twisted on. I went from there to selling cemetery
lots. I sold cemetery lots for a period of a year and a half or so. Then
I went into the type of employment I am in now, food selling.
In between now and previously on the same job I spent a couple of
years as an appliance salesman.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Virgil, there has been considerable tes-
timony before this committee during this hearing indicating activity
on your part in the Communist Party. We heard the testimony of Mr.
Ondrejka that you played an important part in his recruitment into
the Communist Party, not that you were the first person by any means
who talked with him about it, but that Mr. Merle Snyder took him to
your home as a part of the negotiations which resulted in his becoming
a Communist Party member.
The committee has information that you engaged in other Commu-
nist Party recruiting which has not yet been the subject of the testi-
mony. The committee was advised during the hearings that you were
a functionary of the East Side section of the Communist Party.
If those things be true you are in a position to have considerable
knowledge about the activities of the Communist Party in Milwaukee
and the committee will want you to give such information as you have.
Now, let us begin by my asking you whether or not you were the sec-
tion organizer of the East Side section of the Communist Party ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Virgil. Mr. Tavenner, Mr. Chairman, I cannot be compelled
to be a witness against myself. Therefore, I invoke the fifth amend-
ment of the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. And refuse to testify ?
Mr. Virgil. And refuse to testify.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in any recruiting of members for
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Virgil. Again I invoke the fifth amendment for the same reason
previously stated.
1 Reference to International Woodworkers of America, CIO.
4 Reference to Food, Tobacco, Agricultural, and Allied Workers Union of America.
798 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Scherer. Are you familiar with the testimony that Ondrejka
pave concerning your activities in connection with the Communist
Party?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Virgil. Mr. Scherer, other than what Mr. Tavenner has stated
here I have not been here and I am not familiar.
Mr. Scherer. What Mr. Tavenner stated was in substance part of
the testimony of the witness Ondrejka.
Mr. Tavenner. May I interrupt you a moment ? I was in error in
asking this witness about being the organizer of the East Side section
of the Communist Party. The testimony was that he was chairman.
So I think in presenting your question you should clear that up.
Mr. Scherer. With that correction it was my opinion that Mr.
Tavenner stated correctly what the witness Ondrejka stated as to your
activities in the Communist Party. Was any of that false as related
by Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Virgil. Again, Mr. Scherer, because I cannot be compelled to be
a witness against myself I invoke the fifth amendment and refuse to
testify.
Mr. Scherer. If any of that testimony that Ondrejka gave as re-
lated by Mr. Tavenner was false would you so state ?
Mr. Virgil. Again I invoke the fifth amendment, for the same rea-
sons previously stated and refuse to testify.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Merle Snyder?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Virgil. Mr. Tavenner, because I cannot be compelled to appear
as a witness against myself I invoke the fifth amendment and refuse
to testify.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Virgil. Again I invoke the fifth amendment because I cannot be
compelled to appear as a witness against myself, and therefore I refuse
to testify.
Mr. Tavenner. Have vou ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Virgil. Again the fifth amendment. I cannot be compelled to
appear as a witness against myself and I refuse to testify.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Willis?
Mr. Willis. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. I want to make just very briefly, Mr. Virgil, the same-
observation to you that you have heard me make to these other citizens
who have pleaded the fifth amendment. I want to urge you to get
out of whatever relationship you are in, if you are still in the Com-
munist Party to get out of it and quit your activity in it and put your
native ability in support of your own American institutions. Why
do you not do that ? I want to urge you to.
The witness is dismissed.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in order again and the record
will show all committee members present.
Proceed Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Merle Snyder.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 799
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Snyder, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God '.
Mr. Snyder. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF MEELE SNYDEE
Mr. Tayexxer. "What is your name, please, sir \
Mr. Snyder. My name is Merle Snyder.
Mr. Tayexxer. When and where were you born, Mr. Snyder?
Mr. Sxyder. I was born in Huron. S. Dak., in 1921, April.
Mr. Tayexxer. Are you now a resident of Milwaukee '.
Mr. Sxyder. I am.
Mr. Tayexxer. What is your occupation '.
Mr. Sxyder. I am an engineer.
Mr. Tayexxer. Are you aware of the practice of this committee in
permitting all persons who appear before it, whether in open session
or executive session, to have counsel accompanying them if they so
desire ?
Mr. Sxyder. I am.
Mr. Tayexxer. It is noted that you do not have counsel with you.
Do you desire counsel or do you prefer to go ahead without counsel ?
Mr. Sxyder. I prefer no counsel.
Mr. Tayexxer. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cational training has been ?
Mr. Sxyder. I have high school and 2i/2 years of technical engi-
neering.
Mr. Tavexxei:. When and where did you receive that technical
training ?
Mr. Sxyder. At the Bradley Polytechnic Institute in Peoria, 111.
Mr. Tavexxer. When did you complete your training ?
Mr. Sxyder. The training, Mr. Tavenner, w7as not complete. I
didn't finish. It was roughly in, I think, 1946 or thereabouts.
Mr. Tavexxer. When did you come to Milwaukee to make this city
your home ?
Mr. Sxyder. I think that was 1946.
Mr. Tayexxer. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
you came to Milwaukee ?
Mr. Sxyder. No.
Mr. Tavexxer. There was a period of time, however, when you were
a member of the Communist Party, is that not true ?
Mr. Sxyder. Yes, that is true.
Mr. Tavexxer. It has been testified here by Mr. Ondrejka that you
are the person who actually recruited him into the Party. Is that
correct ?
Mr. Snyder. I believe that is correct, yes.
Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. Ondrejka testified that recruiting occurred
through the medium of the Young Progressives of America, that he
was very active in that organization at that time, and one thing led
to another and finally he became a member of the Communist Party.
Were you a member of the Young Progressives of America ?
Mr. Sxyder. Yes, I was.
Mr. Taven xer. I think it was so testified by Mr. Ondrejka.
800 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
I wish you would tell the committee, please, the circumstances sur-
rounding your becoming a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Snyder. I was a member of the Young Progressives Party and
a member of the People's Progressive Party and while working in
the People's Progressive Party and the Young Progressives I became
acquainted with people who later I found out were Communist Party
members. In that way, through constant association, I think I grad-
ually drifted into the party and became a party member, was asked
to become a party member and did. That is briefly how I joined the
Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Then this is another instance where a front organ-
ization served as a very effective recruiting ground for the Commu-
nist Party ?
Mr. Snyder. I would say, yes. The principles on which the Pro-
gressive Party were founded at first to me seemed harmless enough,
but after looking it over now I can understand that it was exactly that,
a front for recruiting.
Mr. Tavenner. What year did you become a member?
Mr. Snyder. That was in the early part of 1949, 1 believe, January.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the person or who were the persons in the
Young Progressives of America or the Progressive Party, either one,
who were responsible for your actual recruitment into the party?
Mr. Snyder. I would say the one most responsible would have been
Harry Virgil.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that the same person who just testified from the
stand ahead of you ?
Mr. Snyder. That is.
Mr. Tavenner. Are there any other circumstances that you can give
us now about his recruitment of you into the Communist Party?
Mr. Snyder. Leading up to my recruitmen, Harry and his wife, Ida,
were very active in the Progressive Party with regard to mimeograph-
ing leaflets, distribution, mailings and the like, and I became involved
in that same activity. Would you refresh my memory on what ex-
actly you wanted, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. I wanted to know just what Mr. Virgil said to you
if anything, or whether you approached him, or just what the facts
are about your actual recruitment into the party.
Mr. Snyder. As I recall it I asked Harry Virgil — I don't think I
asked him. I made a statement, "You are a member of the Commu-
nist Party, aren't you, Harry," and he did not give me a direct answer.
He gave me quite an evasive answer, but one that led me to believe,
of course, that he was; which I already did believe. Subsequently,
after more work and more visits at Harry's apartment I asked to be-
come a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. And you became a member ?
Mr. Snyder. I became a member.
Mr. Tavenner. What group or branch of the Communist Party were
you assigned to?
Mr. Snyder. The East Side section.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the chairman of that branch of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Snyder. Al Hirsch was chairman at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, he is a person who testified before
this committee on the first day.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 801
Do you recall who became chairman at a later date ?
Mr. Snyder. My recollection is only that Al Hirsch was chairman
of the East Side section.
Mr. Tavenner. In what phase of Communist Party activity did
you devote most of your time and attention ?
Mr. Snyder. Mostly the distribution of literature and the selling
of the Sunday Worker. I believe it is the Sunday Worker instead of
the Daily Worker. It came out every Sunday, and at least I was
selling Workers.
Actually there weren't too many activities in the East Side group
there that I was connected with. I did a lot of distributing. I will
tell you that.
Mr. Tavenner. These circulars that you speak of, were they gotten
out by this particular group, the East Side group of the Communist
Party or were they gotten out by one of the front organizations of
the party or both ?
Mr. Snyder. I would say both, and I would also say we received
much literature and mail from, I would imagine, New York or some
place like that. I couldn't tell you the exact place. We would dis-
tribute that literature, too.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you give the committee, please, the names
of those that you can now remember who were members of the East
Side branch of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Snyder. There was Al Hirsch as chairman. Harry and Ida
Virgil ; George Sommers ; Otis Daigle.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell that last name ?
Mr. Snyder. I believe it is spelled D-a-i-g-1-e.
Mr. Tavenner. If you can give the committee any further identi-
fying information relating to these people as to how they were em-
ployed it might be of some aid to the committee in the matter of
identification.
Mr. Snyder. I think I can do that. Al Hirsch was, I believe, con-
nected with the CIO News. Harry Virgil, when I knew him was a
salesman. He sold lots in cemeteries. George Sommers, I believe,
was working for a malting company at the time. Otis Daigle, I be-
lieve he ran a rooming house or something like that. I don't know
if he was employed otherwise. There was another member, Jack
Meister
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the last name ?
Mr. Snyder. M-e-i-s-t-e-r. I believe he owns several apartment
houses around the city, and Mike Ondrejka also became a member
about a month before we changed groups. There was a termination
of our attending the East Side group. I don't exactly recall when
that was. Mike, by the way, was a shoe salesman for the Burt Shoe
Store, I believe it was. I think that is all the members at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you continue your activities in the Young
Progressives of America after becoming a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Snyder. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. In the continuation of that work and other work
of the Communist Party, did you have occasion to meet other mem-
bers pf the Young Progressive Party besides those whose names you
have given us ?
Mr. Snyder. Yes ; I did.
63796 — 55 — pt. 2 7
802 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. I am going to ask you to tell us who those people
are, but I want to know what your basis of identification of them is ;
that is, how vou knew that they were members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Snyder. Well, on that basis, Mr. Tavenner, there are many
people that I believe to be Communists. However, I can give you no
definite basis or tie-in and such. I think I should omit their names.
Mr. Tavenner. That is exactly correct and it is the reason I asked
you the question that way, because I don't want your belief in the mat-
ter no matter how sound your belief may be about it. I want you to
give us identification of only those that you know with certainty were
members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Snyder. I would like to start off so that it will be easier for me
in this manner : The people who lived with me ; and take off from there.
Sidney Berger lived with me at my apartment; Herb Major lived
with me. I will go then from there. Mark Berman : He used to come to
our apartment and would stay overnight occasionally. Well, he
chaired a couple of meetings.
Jerry Rose also was coming to my apartment, also a member of the
YPA. Mark Berman also a member of the YPA. Betty Gossell,
chairman of the YPA; Ted Silverstine a member of the YPA, also
a member of the — you see, all these people that I am naming now are
members of the Communist Party as I knew them. My memory fails
me. It should be better than this.
Jim Eggleston, a member of YPA, also used to come to the apart-
ment on occasion. Sally Mattis
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell that last name ?
Mr. Snyder. M-a — it is either "t" or double "t"-i-s. I don't know
which.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you this : Did you have any occasion to
be affiliated with any group of the party within the field of labor, any
cell in a manufacturing plant ?
Mr. Snyder. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Therefore, you would not have the opportunity of
knowing members of the Communist Party in such groups unless
you met with them ?
Mr. Snyder. Unless I would have met with them, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall having met with any of those groups ?
Mr. Snyder. No, no labor groups.
Mr. Tavenner. I interrupted you. Are there any others that you
can now recall?
Mr. Snyder. Murray Wolfson, I recall. He taught a class in politi-
cal economy at which I attended. Lillian Rody attended the class
with me in political economy which was strictly for Communist Party
members. If you are asking me about the youth group now- — ■ —
Mr. Tavenner. Any group that you met with.
Mr. Snyder. Well, actually I only met with the youth group and
the East Side section, so I think I had better confine my testimony to
that.
Mr. Tavenner. And also the school that you said you attended or
the study class.
Mr. Snyder. At this study class or this political economy course
that was taught first by Andrew Reams, and then Murray Wolfson
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 803
took over ; I believe that Fred Blair dubbed in one session. I n-m not
sure.
I remember a Nada Hudson attending. Mary Keith attended a
couple of sessions there. She operated the People's Book Store on West
Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that about all that you can recall at this time ?
Mr. Snyder. That is all I can recall, Mr. Tavenner. There are many
people that I could recall. However, I can't remember at this time.
Mr. Tavenner. In fact you have tried to put this whole matter be-
hind you, haven't you, in the last few years ?
Mr. Snyder. Mr. Tavenner, to be honest with you I thought it would
never come up again. I had hoped such.
Mr, Tavenner. I believe the only other matter that I want to talk
to you about is the situation that developed when you were put out of
the Communist Party. You have, told us that you became a member
of the Communist Party in the early part of 1949.
Mr. Snyder. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member ?
Mr. Snyder. I was expelled from the Communist Party in October
1950.
Mr. Tavenner. W^ere you given any sort of a democratic trial prior
to your discharge ?
Air. Snyder. Ordinarily when you speak of a democratic trial you
arc speaking of a trial held before a judge and jury and you have
counsel, and also you are notified probably several weeks in advance
or perhaps months in advance of such a trial.
Mr. Scherer. Let us not call it a trial. Let us call it a hearing.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you this: At that particular time, after
having been in the Communist Party from 1949, it seems that your
place of residence was surrounded by members of the Communist
Party. Would it be correct to say that virtually all of your friends
at that period of time were persons who were in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Snyder. That is correct.
Air. Tavenner. Your whole social life was bound up at that time in
the1 Communist Party (
Mr. Snyder. That is definitely correct.
Mr. Tavenner. For how long a period of time was that to which you
refer approximately ?
Mi-. Snyder. Well, approximately for 2 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, just what
happened ?
Mr. Snyder. One night in early October I was paid a visit by one
Sigmund Eisenscher. He asked me to accompany him in his car.
We went out on the far west side on North Avenue, West. We picked
up another man whom I did not know, whom I can't recall. We went
back to the city and went to the Allied Linoleum Co. where we either
met John Oilman or maybe we picked him up. I don't recall. We
went in the store and were seated. Sig Eisenscher started questioning
me. At first I thought that the questions were directed because they
were going I < i send me to school, to a Marxist school.
Mr. T whx ner. Why did you think that ?
Mr. Snyder. I had been informed about a month earlier that they
were considering sending me to school. I think I may have asked to
804 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
be sent to school because I was always rather weak on Communist
theory.
At any rate I believe the question period was about a half hour and
at the end of that time I was beginning to wonder exactly what was
going on because of the type of questions that were being thrown at
me, and it was about that time that Sig Eisenscher pulled out a type-
written statement, I imagine about 2 pages long and read it to me.
Mr. Scherer. Did you answer those questions that they asked you
during this half hour ?
Mr. Snyder. I did.
Mr. Scherer. Did you use the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Snyder. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Was this statement that was presented at that time
a statement which had been prepared ahead of the questioning?
Mr. Snyder. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Ahead of this meeting ?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, it was. Eisenscher then read me the charge of
being an FBI agent, of my being suspected of being an FBI agent,
that they could not tolerate such people in the Communist Party;
theerf ore, I was as of then no longer a Communist.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you representing the FBI in any capacity ?
Mr. Snyder. No, none whatsoever.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, this statement was false in every
respect ?
Mr. Snyder. It was definitely false.
Mr. Scherer. Did you tell them it was false ?
Mr. Snyder. I did. I would like to explain my attitude at the time.
Mr. Tavenner has led up to it. My whole life for 2 years was the
Communist Party. I had no outside friends or no outside contacts.
My home was far away. 1 had no relatives here. Therefore, I was
very much wrapped up in the Communist Party, and when I was ex-
pelled from the Communist Party I thought that this was a real blow.
Actually it was a real blow.
I didn't realize until I would say 3 months later what a very good
service they had done for me.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, you felt it was an unfair, unjust and
very crippling blow to you at the moment ?
Mr. Snyder. At the moment I thought it was true.
Mr. Doyle. But later you decided it was a favor ?
Mr. Snyder. I was married 3 months later and have a very fine
wife and family. I am sure I wouldn't have these if I had been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. You say that this charge was presented against you
involving possible connections with the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation. Do you have any reason to believe that there was some other
motive that influenced the Communist Party in taking this action
against you. and they just used that as a pretext ?
Mr. Snyder. Of course, it is only a theory of mine.
Mr. Tavenner. I think you are entitled to present it in light of what
occurred.
Mr. Snyder. I believe in this case that I had incurred the enmity of
one Mark Berman. I think that he put the so-called skids under me
as far as getting me out of the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 805
I base that theory on the fact that Mark Berman used to borrow my
car. At one time he borrowed my car and didn't return it for 3 days,
and I had assumed it was a couple of hours or at least that evening I
would have my car back. However, 3 days later I went after my car.
Mr. Doyle. Went where? Did he not return it ?
Mr. Snyder. He didn't return my car, no.
Mr. Doyle. Did you pay for the gasoline while he had it ?
Mr. Snyder. I imagine that he burned up the gas in the tank that
was there. I don't recall if there was more gas in the car when he
brought it back or not. At least I went after my car. I was looking
for it, and I was walking down on West Michigan Avenue by the Mil-
waukee Depot and I spotted my car and I also spotted Mark Berman
at the same time. I approached him and said that I would sure as the
devil like to have my car back. He put me off quite abruptly and
told me that I should get away because someone was trailing him and
that he had to get away fast. He got away fast.
That evening, however, he did return my car and when he returned
it he threw the keys; they went on the floor. He said, "Take your
so-and-so car and your keys," and stalked out the door.
I thought that at the time it was a very unreasonable attitude for
anyone to have. [Laughter.]
Mr. Sciierer. You just were not a true Communist at heart.
Mr. Snyder. However, I do think that that is one of the reasons.
Mark Berman was quite an important member in the Communist Party
and I think that that more than likely influenced the whole affair.
Mark just didn't like me after that. That is about all I can say about
that.
Mr. Tavenner. After you were expelled from the Communist Party
did you make any effort to get back in ?
Mr. Snyder. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Since the time of your expulsion have you engaged
in any Communist Party activity ?
Mr. Snyder. None whatsoever.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you anything that you desire to say to the
committee in addition to what you have already said about your good
fortune in having been mistreated? You are perfectly at liberty to
say it.
Mr. Snyder. I am not much of a talker. As a matter of fact I get
quite embarrassed when I do speak. I would say this : That I am very
happy to have the experience that I have gotten and still not be a
member of the Communist Party. It is something that if everybody
in the United States could know actually what I know about the party
and not be a Communist, which is quite a contradiction, of course, I
don't think we would have any trouble today with communism in the
United States.
Mr. Tavenner. Do I understand from that that you are saying in
substance that you feel that with the knowledge you now have of the
Communist Party you can be more loyal to your country?
Mr. Snyder. I can be much more loyal.
Mr. Tavenner. Because of the mistakes that you know have
occurred ?
Mr. Snyder. That is right. I wish to say that I have absolutely no
affection for the Communist Party or their way of life. I am very
happy that what happened did happen when it did. I like to think
806 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
that if it hadn't happened, that if I would not have been expelled that
I would have gotten out by myself at a later date. That is what I like
to think, at least.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Congressman Willis?
Mr. Willis. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Congressman Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. They had an educational class in the history of the
United States Constitution, did they not, while you were a member;
a class which you attended?
Mr. Snyder. I don't recall, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Neither do I, but my remark was made facetiously for
effect because I have never heard of a Communist class studying the
United States Constitution. I thought that by asking a question that
way it would emphasize for your attention and for the record that
there is no such thing.
You said for 2 years your whole life was wrapped up in the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Snyder. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Snyder. That perhaps takes a little explaining. I moved to
Milwaukee from Chicago about a year previous to becoming a member
of the Communist Party. Upon leaving Chicago coming to a strange
place, I had no friends at the time, and my first contacts were with the
Young Progressives and with the Progressive Party. I made no at-
tempt to make friends outside of those two groups, and therefore, when
I was expelled from the Communist Party it was an expulsion and it
was also a complete ignoring of me.
I recall the first night I went back. I believe Mike Ondrejka was
in his room. The apartment was mine. Therefore I didn't have to
move.
Mr. Doyle. Did you pay the rent for all the others ; that is, sharing?
Mr. Snyder. I paid the rent of that apartment for the other two.
Mike paid his own way.
Mr. Doyle. For which two did you pay the rent ?
Mr. Snyder. I paid the rent for Sid Berger and Herb Major. That
is, the apartment was mine. I just kept the rent up.
Mr. Doyle. Were they not working ?
Mr. Snyder. Yes and no.
Mr. Doyle. How long was it yes and no ? How long did you pay
the rent ?
Mr. Snyder. Sid Berger couldn't seem to hold a job ever, and what
jobs he did hold he didn't seem to make enough money to be able to
go his share. Herb Major was going to school and Herb did every-
thing he could, I know, to hold up his share, but he couldn't do it
and go to school at the same time. I had ability to make enough
money so I just furnished the money for our living. That is all.
Mr. Doyle. You were sort of a Communist angel, then ?
Mr. Snyder. A fool.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask you just one more question. When this
group of Communist leaders in Milwaukee and Wisconsin picked you
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 807
up in the automobile and took you to Allied Linoleum Shop, the
owner of which testified here earlier today, as I recall it — I think
he was the man with some medals in a picture frame, was he not?
Mr. Snyder. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Did they not tell you that you were going on trial and
for you to get a lawyer, or that you were going to have a hearing and
ask you if you wanted a public hearing before the cell of which you
were a member ?
Mr. Snyder. No, I was told that I could appeal this decision to the
highest committee or the central committee. I don't recall exactly
what that group was now. I believe it was the central committee.
Mr. Doyle. Did they not hand you a bill of charges before they
began questioning you ?
Mr. Snyder. No.
Mr. Doyle. At no time ?
Mr. Snyder. At no time.
Mr. Doyle. I want to observe here to my colleagues and counsel
that I think that is the history of the Communist Party all over the
Nation. We have never heard of a case of a member of the Com-
munist Party being expelled who was ever given a bill of charges or
complaints or given a hearing with counsel. You were never told
you could plead the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Snyder. No.
Mr. Doyle. Is that correct ?
Mr. Snyder. No.
Mr. Doyle. What kind of questions did they ask you before they
sprung this prepared statement of 2 sheets on you ? Just briefly give
us an idea.
Mr. Snyder. I don't think I can recall anything. Just that I was
an FBI agent. I know that there were an awful lot of leading ques-
tions that I answered, but not knowing what was going to happen I
wasn't too interested in what they were saying.
Mr. Doyle. You denied then, and now deny under oath that you
were ever an FBI agent ; is that correct ?
Mr. Snyder. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Let me thank you on behalf of the United States Con-
gress for having guts enough to be willing to come before this con-
gressional committee and give the United States Congress the benefit
of your terrible experience. I know without saying that you have
boon, since you were expelled, contributing strength to your Nation
instead of weakness. We thank you for doing that.
Mr. Willis. May I ask a question ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, indeed, Mr. Willis.
Mr. Willis. Regarding your reference to Mark Berman and your
theory surrounding the discharge, let me suggest to you that you may
not be far wrong, because in this booklet which I have before me pre-
pared by our investigators and given to us, in all seriousness here is
the way that man in characterized : "Subject is reported to be the chief
of police for the Communist Party in Milwaukee, Wis.''
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Willis.
Have you anything else from this witness, Mr. Tavenner?
808 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mr. Doyle. I think I ought to ask this so that the record will be
clear.' I have never talked with this witness in my life. I do not
know what his answer will be.
Have you received any emolument or compensation or pay, or the
promise of anything for testifying as you have before this committee?
Mr. Snyder. None whatsoever.
Mr. Doyle. You have not been promised any money in the future
or any consideration, financial or property of any sort ?
Mr. Snyder. None whatsoever.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
The witness is excused, with our thanks. [Applause. ]
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in recess until 1 : 15 p. m.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 20 the hearing was recessed to reconvene at 1 : 15
the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
Mr. Doyle. The committee will reconvene at 1 : 35.
Let the record please show that the committee members of the sub-
committee present are Representative Willis from Louisiana, on my
right ; and I am Representative Doyle from California. Mr. Scherer,
{lie third member of the subcommittee, is temporarily absent. Under
the rules of the House the two of us being present is a legal quorum of
the three. Therefore, we will proceed.
Are you ready, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Otis Daigle, will you come forward ?
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Daigle, will you please rise and be sworn ?
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask him a question before you swear him?
Mr. Daigle. Your Honor, may I object to these pictures being taken ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes ; we will ask the press, as long as the witness has
objected, to please desist from taking them.
STATEMENT OF OTIS DAIGLE
Mr. Tavenner. I want to ask you a question or two before you are
sworn if you will sit down a moment, please. You were subpenaed this
morning to appear here, Mr. Daigle. A few minutes ago after I re-
turned from lunch I had the investigator find you in the corridor and
brkig you back here in order to inform you what this was about. I told
you that there has been testimony involving you here, and I told you
you were entitled to counsel, did I not ?
Mr. Daigle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I suggested that you if you could, on this short
notice, obtain service of counsel, and you said you would leave and
see if you could. So, before going any further I want to find out
whether you have obtained counsel ?
Mr. Daigle. No ; I have not. I haven't been able to get anybody yet.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, you are entitled to have counsel, and in addi-
tion to that the rule of the committee is that you cannot be compelled
to testify within 24 hours from the time of the service of the subpena
on you.
If you prefer more time to get counsel it is perfectly all right.
Mr. Daigle. I would prefer to have counsel.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 809
Mr. Tavenner. I am glad you prefer to have counsel.
The situation of the committee, however, is such that it is terminat-
ing this hearing today. Do you think you could obtain counsel with-
in the next 15 or 20 minutes, or do you need more time ?
Mr. Daigle. I think I would.
Mr. Tavenner. You think you would need more time ?
Mr. Daigle. Oh, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, in light of this situation may I make
a suggestion for your consideration \
Mr. Doyle. Yes, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I suggest that this witness should be notified as all
witnesses have been by the original statement made by the chairman
of the subcommittee when we started the hearings, namely that any
person whose name has been adversely used in connection with this
hearing has a right to come forward and testify.
You have the right to do that now if you choose. I mean, you have
a right to offer any explanation of the testimony that you may desire.
On the other hand, in this instance we subpenaed you and the com-
mittee feels that it should not require you to be heard without coun-
sel unless you want to be.
Now, having decided that you have not had time to get counsel of
your choice, I think, Mr. Chairman, that probably the procedure we
should adopt is that which the committee has had in effect for a long
time. That is just to permit this witness to either appear at some fu-
ture time and testify if he desires to ; on the other hand if he wants
to submit a written statement to the committee under oath, that we
accept that written statement and determine after receiving it whether
or not we want to go further and question him.
Mr. Doyle. Are you sure you heard what our legal counsel said?
Mr. Daigle. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. And you understand that we are not going to ask you
to testify without a lawyer being here to advise you of your consti-
tutional rights. You have stated that you feel you' probably could not
get a lawyer in the short time. That being the case, and because we
always want a witness to be advised of his constitutional rights, and
because we are adjourning this afternoon, nevertheless we felt, sir,
that as an American citizen, you having been named, I think twice in
the last day or two by former Communists, as a member of the Com-
munist Party in Milwaukee — may I stand corrected. Has he been
named twice ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir ; that is true.
Mr. Doyle. You have been identified twice in the last day or two
by former Communists, admitted Communists who left the party,
stating that you were a Communist in Milwaukee.
Mr. Daigle. May I ask by who ?
Mr. Doyle. Will you please state which witnesses so testified ?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Merle Snyder and Mr. Michael Ondrejka.
Mr. Willis. Mr. Chairman, I think what the counsel has said is
simply carrying out our rules of fair play. That is all there is to that.
I think this invitation for you to request an opportunity to appear or
to send us a written statement under oath is a privilege we are giving
you, sir, and a privilege we are now offering to anybody who wants
to exercise it. That is in the spirit of the rules of our committee.
03796— 55 — pt. 2 8
810 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
So wheat applies to you, simply applies to everybody else in your
situation.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Willis.
In other words, I brought out the reason that you have been named
by these two formers Communists as a Communist in Milwaukee, and
you have been told which two former Communists did name you as
a Communist Party member in Milwaukee so that if you elect to
appear before us at a later date or to send us a sworn statement before
a notary public, either denying or affirming or explaining, we feel
then, that we as members of the United States Congress have done our
duty by you as an American citizen under the rules of our committee.
Unless you choose to get a lawyer within the next short time and
reappear before this committee with your counsel who is entitled to
advise you of your constitutional rights under the circumstances, we
are going to dismiss you from the subpena. It was the only way we
had to get you in here today to give you this opportunity. We felt
you should have the opportunity because, manifestly, the testimony
that you were a member of the Communist Party here by these two
former Communists might tend to hurt you in some way. We wanted
to give you every opportunity to answer that sort of testimony.
So it is up to you, sir, from here on. You are dismissed from the
subpena as far as this committee is concerned. We will not be a party
to having you in any way embarrassed or limited by the fact that you
have not had the chance to get a lawyer of your own choice.
Is that clear to you ?
Mr. Daigle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. "We are giving you an invitation to appear at your own
volition later or to send us a sworn statement. In saying that I am
not saying that we are binding ourselves to not call you at some later
date if we feel that the ends of the welfare of our Nation demand it.
We are not waiving our rights in any way to resubpena you at a later
date if we feel it is in the interests of the protection of our national
security to do so.
Thank you very much for coming so promptly.
(Witness excused.)
, Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, that is all that the staff has to pre-
sent to the committee at this time.
Mr. Doyle. With those words from our distinguished legal counsel
it becomes my duty and privilege to just say a few words in terminat-
ing the hearings for these 3 days.
We are finishing a few hours ahead of the time in which we thought
we might be able to finish.
■ On behalf of the committee, I wish to say a few words. First, we
wish to reiterate and repeat very sincerely the committee's apprecia-
tion of the many courtesies and very tangible acts of cooperation and
courtesy and understanding which have been extended us by all the
public officials of Milwaukee and of the State of Wisconsin upon whom
We have had to make any call or request any cooperation. They have
not waited until we have had to ask for it. They have offered it. We
appreciate that very much.
Secondly, on behalf of the committee I want to again thank all the
members of the Milwaukee press, the newspapers. They have been
wonderful in their understanding and interpretation and their accu-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 811
rate reporting, and their photographers have been most courteous and
cooperative.
Then the radio stations here in Milwaukee, the men that have re-
corded the voices of the witnesses and of counsel and of the committee,
and the television stations, too, have been most understanding because
we have a rule, of course, that the committee in action shall not be
televised. It has all be very orderly and understanding.
You visitors and guests of the committee in the courtroom, not only
you folks that are here today, but those who were here yesterday and
the day before, and are not here now, have been most understanding
and cooperative, and we as American Congressmen appreciate that be-
cause you have helped us here and have helped us do our work more
efficiently.
The courtroom has been crowded every day with all seats occupied
and dozens of you standing up and sitting in the window ways.
I think in behalf of the committee if I said anything more it would
just be 2 or 3 brief points. We say this to you out of our experience
as we have traveled over thisNation in many of the large cities. More
than you ever have before, step up your patriotic vigilance and coop-
eration with all of your local law enforcement officers and personnel,
Federal, State, local, in this field of subversive activity.
Second, we want to urge the Ial>ojjy^feus. the patriotic orders, the
church groups, the young people'sl|^»irjps in the churches and else-
where, the community committees, tn^velfore committees both gov-
ernmental and volunteer, the school and educational agencies both pub-
lic and private, to be very much aware of the fact that the Communist
Party conspirators and nonpatriotic citizens will try to infiltrate those
groups, especially, and get control of them secretly.
We want to urge you folks at the local level to more fully than ever
discharge your local responsibility to yourself, your great Nation, your
great State, and your lovely Milwaukee.
I have been asked several times here in the last 3 days why we do not
forget and just omit to call some of these people who several years
ago were members of the Communist Party. Therefore, I feel it ap-
propriate to just make a brief remark.
You have heard me mention the Duclos letter. That probably was
the dividing line, the dividing date between the ability and the proba-
bility of our great system of free competitive enterprise, the American
way of life and the Soviet system to get along and understand sufficient-
ly, to have an enduring peace, because when the Duclos letter came
to this country in April or May 1945 it made it clear that, as far as
the Communist conspiracy was concerned, there was no chance for the
United States of America to survive in the same world with the Soviet
conspiracy.
So, very briefly I want to comment that it just seems to me that any
American citizen who joined the Communist Party after April or
May 1945 might well have done it with his or her eye open to the fact
that the Duclos letter, which was widely publicized in our Nation,
laid down as the fundamental premise, that the United States of
America could not survive in the same world with the Soviet conspir-
acy; and certainly if you allow any uninformed American citizen or
any American citizen who intended to be patriotic to the United
States first 1, 2, 3 or 4 years after the Duclos letter in 1945, which was
812 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
the same time that Earl Browder was kicked out of the chairmanship
of the Communist Party, to get his or her eyes open, then it seems to
me as an American congressman — and I think to the committee and
to all Members of Congress — that certainly any person now, since 1950
especially, stays in the Communist Party with his or her eyes open
knowing that it is a conspiracy designed to use force and violence
whenever they think the time is ready. I do not think that we Mem-
bers of Congress have much patience with such American citizens.
Now, my last remark and suggestion to you is that you have heard
these witnesses testify that the Communist Party was actively after
the young people of our Nation. Certainly they are wise in trying to
get the American youth. If they get the youth they get the Nation.
Thank God they have not succeeded very much yet.
Therefore, I think we three members who are visitors here with
you will say to you in closing that whatever you are going to give your
country, give to it every day.
We have had many courtesies and I thank you very much on behalf
of the committee.
The committee stands in dismissal as far as these hearings are con-
cerned.
(Whereupon, at 2 p. m., Wednesday, March 30, 1955, the committee
adjourned subject to call of the Chair.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
TUESDAY, MAY 3, 1955
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Committee
on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
executive session 1
The subcommittee met at 4 : 10 p. m., pursuant to notice, in room
227 of the House Office Building, Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle (chair-
man) , Edwin E. Willis, and Gordon H. Scherer.
Staff members present: Thomas W. Beale, chief clerk, Frank S.
Tavenner, Jr., counsel, and W. Jackson Jones, investigator.
Mr. Doyle. Let the record show that the same subcommittee, by
virtue of the authority designating us, by Chairman Walter of the full
committee, s'fs today, Mr. Willis of Louisiana, Mr. Scherer of Ohio,
and Mr. Doyle, acting as chairman, of California ; this being the same
subcommittee that sat in the subcommittee hearings in Milwaukee.
Are you ready, Mr. Tavenner ?
The witness will please stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Will you be seated.
TESTIMONY OF MKS. DARINA RASMUSSEN, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, M. MICHAEL ESSIN
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. Darina Rasmussen.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Rasmussen, it is noted you are accompanied
by counsel. Counsel will please identify himself for the record.
Mr. Essin. Counsel for Mrs. Rasmussen is M. Michael Essin, 623
North Second Street, Milwaukee, Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mrs. Rasmussen ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I was born on August 21, 1913, at East St. Louis,
111.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your maiden name ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. Morlac.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?
» Released by the committee.
813
814 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mrs. Rasmussen. 3901 Barnard Avenue, Cuclahy.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived there ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. My family moved to Cudahy in 1917, and lived in
Cudahy up until 1939, and I got married and then after my husband's
posing, I moved back to Cudahy in 1952.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your employment ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I am the office secretary of the TJE la Local 1111.
Mr. Tavenner. Where are you employed in that work, at wnat place ?
Mis. Rasmussen. At the union office, at 233 West Greenfield Avenue.
Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so employed ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. It will be 3 years June 15.
Mr. Tavenner. So you became employed there June 15, 1952?
Mrs. Rasmussen. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your employment prior to that time?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I worked for the Wisconsin Title Guaranty Co.,
and I started working there sometime in January of 1952, up until
the time I started working at the UE Local 1111 office.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I am a graduate of the Washington School, grade
school, in Cudahy and a graduate of the Cudahy High School.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with a person by the name of
Jerry Rose ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that ; I assert the privilege not
to testify against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with a person by the name of
Michael J. Ondrejka ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that ; I assert the privilege not
to testify against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ondrejka testified during the course of the
hearings conducted by this committee in Milwaukee on March 29,
1955. In the course of his testimony he stated that in February and
March of 1953 he conducted a tax service in local 1111 union office.
Do you recall his having engaged in work of that kind in your union
office?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that, and I assert the privilege
not to testify against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. In the course of Mr. Ondrejka's testimony, he also
stated that while engaging in that type of work there, Jerry Rose
came into the office, and that Jerry Rose was not affiliated in any way
with your union. Do you recall Jerry Rose having come into the
office?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. At any time in February or March of 1953 ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that, and I assert the privilege
not to testify against myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ondrejka further testified that Mr. Rose, when
he came there, called for you, that is, asked if you were there ; and he,
Mr. Ondrejka, advised him that you were. Did that occur, to your
knowledge?
L—
la Reference to United Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 815
Mrs. Easmussen. I refuse to answer that; I assert tlie privilege not
to testify against myself.
Mr. Doyle. I think, Mr. Tavenner, I should suggest this to the
witness and counsel, that we as a committee are not familiar with any
privilege that you can assert unless it is some constitutional privilege,
and you have not. mentioned whether it is a constitutional privilege
or what it is, or the portion of the Constitution on which you rely.
Mrs. Easmussen. The fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. So that the record will be clear, may I ask whether or
not each time that you have asserted your privilege, you referred to
the exercising of the privilege under the fifth amendment of the
United States Constitution?
Mrs. Easmussen. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Scherer. Is any of the testimony of Ondrejka that has been
referred to with reference to you or the person, Eose, false ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Easmussen. I refuse to answer that, and I assert the privilege
not to testify against myself, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with John Killian ?
Mrs. Easmussen. John Killian was a member of UE Local 1111
and a former steward in that local.
• Air. Tavenner. Was he employed at the plant of Allen-Bradley Co.
in 1953?
Mrs. Easmussen. I am not certain, but to my knowledge, I suppose
it is true.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ondrejka testified that there was a group or
cell of the Communist Party organized within Allen-Bradley where
Mr. Killian and he were employed. His testimony on that subject is
as follows :
Now, in April 15 of 1953, give or take a couple of days, at a cell meeting, we
were told by John Killian, who was the chairman of my cell, that he had dis-
cussed the matter with Jerry Rose; and I believe the bundle of the special edi-
tion of the May Day Daily Worker that we were to take was 100; and the
reason why he would have discussed this with Jerry Rose was this : When we
set up this cell, all activity was to funnel down from Jerry Rose to the chairman
of the cell. He was to meet weekly with the South Side division leader in order
to prepare an agenda which was a written agenda.
On this particular occasion we had decided to send a copy of the special
edition, the May 1 edition of the Daily Worker, or the May Day edition of the
Daily Worker to all the stewards. At that time we chipped in, the paper itself
was paid for out of funds from the group, the Allen-Bradley cell, but the postage
was to be made up by members of the group. I paid my postage that morning.
Now, at the end of this meeting I had told John Killian that I would be glad
to sit there the rest of the morning with him, that we might go through a tele-
phone directory and get the names of the stewards that we would have a mailing
list to send them to. He said, "That isn't necessary because I will go to the union
office and get them from one certain individual." He said to me, "In case you
didn't know it, this individual is the fifth member of our cell," and he asked if
I was surprised; and the reason I remember is because he asked that question,
and I said, "No, I suspected it the day Jerry Rose was in the office."
Did Mr. Killian acquire from you a list of stewards from the union
office or f rom any other place ?
Mrs. Easmussen. I refuse to answer that : I assert the privilege not
to testify against myself ; the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. I will instruct the witness to answer that question. She
has identified John Killian as the man she knew.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
816 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer the question, and I assert the
privilege not to testify against myself ; the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I then asked Mr. Ondrejka this question :
The person whose name he gave you as being the undisclosed member of your
cell was actually the person that Rose had visited in the union office?
Mr. Ondrejka's reply was :
That is correct, sir.
Another question :
Now, you have not mentioned the name of that individual ?
Mr. Ondrejka. I do not mention this person's name because of the fact that
I was told by Jerry Rose at the first meeting it was an undisclosed fifth. I was
told by John Killian, who the member was but because of the fact that this mem-
ber worked on days while we held our meetings at 8 o'clock in the morning, John
Killian said that he would take the agenda which was written, plus the dis-
cussion notes that resulted from the meeting, and he would go down early in
the afternoon before work and brief this individual on it.
Now, I distinctly remember many times where the following week Agnes Slater
was dropped from our group because of the fact that now this individual was
a formal member that I knew of.
Under instructions from the committee, Mr. Ondrejka did not pub-
licly identify that individual because of it being hearsay testimony.
However, in executive session before this committee Mr. Ondrejka did
identify that individual as you.
Were you a member of a group of the Communist Party of which
John Kiilian was a member ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that question; I assert the
privilege not to testify against myself, and invoke the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Sciierer. Did not you tell the investigator that served the sub-
pen a on you that you were not a member of the Communist Party!
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer; I assert the privilege not to
testify against myself, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Did you make any statement to the investigator at all
when he served the subpena ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer; I assert the privilege of not
testifying against myself, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. If the investigator tells us that you did tell him that
you were not a member of the Communist Party, would you say lie
was telling the truth or an untruth ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that. I assert the privilege of
not testifying against myself, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Is it not a fact that you told the investigator who
served you with the subpena to appear here today that you were not
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that, and I assert the privilege
not to testify against myself, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I can only assume that you were not telling the truth
to the investigator at the time, and hoped you might save yourself
an appearance before this committee.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA 817
Mr. Willis. In order to complete the record, at the time you talked
to the investigator, you, of course, were not under oath ; is that cor-
rect ? You are under oath now.
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that, and I assert the privilege
not to testify against myself, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr. John Killian come to your office in 1953
and discuss with you the agenda to be taken up with the Communist
Party group composed of himself and others ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that, and I assert the privilege
not to testify against myself, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Gloria Killian?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that; I assert the privilege
not to testify against myself, fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Gloria Killian known to you to be a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that, and I assert the privilege
of not to testify against myself, fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Jerry Rose known to you to be a Communist
Party functionary in Milwaukee in 1953 ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer ; I assert the privilege not to
testify against myself, fifth amendment.
Mr. Willis. Why do you refuse to answer any acquaintanceship
with Jerry Rose and others, when you just said that you do know John
Killian ? What is the difference ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer, and I assert the privilege not
to testify against myself, fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. You are not testifying against yourself if you testify
as to Communist Party membership on the part of somebody else, and
the fifth amendment does not permit you to refuse to testify as to
another party's membership in the Communist Party or another
party's criminal acts. It is only a protection to yourself.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. In going back now to your employment, I think
that you said that you had been employed in an official capacity by the
UE from June 15, 1952. Will you tell me again what the employment
was in which you engaged prior to June 15, 1952 ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I was a tax examiner for a title guaranty firm.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the firm ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. It was the Wisconsin Title Guaranty Co.
Mr. Tavenner. Located in the city of Milwaukee ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you so employed ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. For about half a year.
Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time, were you a member of
any union, while so employed ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. No, I was not a member of any union.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your employment before working in that
capacity ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. Well, I was a housewife from 1939, from the time
I got married, up until the time my husband passed away. He passed
away on October 30, 1951.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to 1939, what was your employment?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I was a power machine operator.
Mr. Tavenner. Working for whom ?
818 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE MILWAUKEE, WIS., AREA
Mrs. Rasmussen. For the Chase Bag Co. in Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you so employed ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. About 2 years, and I am not sure, but about that
time I would say.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you desire to bring before this committee any
person whom we may question regarding their knowledge of matters
which would throw light on the subject we have been discussing?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Rasmussen. Well, I could discuss it with my counsel.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Rasmussen. Would you repeat that question so that I can get
it clearly?
Mr. Essin. I prefer on behalf of my client to have it on the record.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee desires to give you an opportunity to
give it the names of any witnesses you would like called for the purpose
of the committee interrogating such individuals regarding the testi-
mony of Mr. Ondrejka in his identification of you as having been a
member of the Communist Party. My question is whether or not you
desire that we subpena any witnesses for that purpose.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Willis. The question is : Do you want that privilege ? That is
what it amounts to.
Mrs. Rasmussen. I will not accept the offer of the committee on
that matter.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have any further questions ?
Mr. Willis. Do you have any children ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. Yes, sir ; I have 2 children.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. You are employed by whom ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. By the LIE Local 1111.
Mr. Scherer. In what capacity ?
Mrs. Rasmussen. As an office secretary.
Mr. Scherer. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that question ; I assert the priv-
ilege not to testify against myself, fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Rasmussen. I refuse to answer that, and I assert the privilege
not to testify against myself, fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. I have no questions.
The witness may be excused ; and thank you.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Scherer. I move the testimony be released.
Mr. Willis. I second that motion.
Mr. Doyle. I will join with you.
Therefore, let the record show that the subcommittee votes unani-
mously to recommend to the full committee that we release this testi-
mony.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 40 p. m., the subcommittee recessed. )
INDEX
Individuals
Page
Altman, Esther (Mrs. Mortimer Altinan) 760
Altman, Mortimer (Mort. ; M.) 636,
639, 647, 6-1S, 664-669 (testimony), 705, 706, 750, 759, 760
Amile, Thomas R 753
Barberich, Edmund 780
Berger, Harriet 620, 631, 634
Berger, Phyllis (nee Phyllis Waldman ; Mrs. Sidney Berger) 620,
629, 636, 6S4, 0^2, U93. 716
Berger, Sidney D. (Sid) 620.
629, 636, 675, 684, 692, 693, 716, 753-763 (testimony), 764, 800
Berman, Mark 619, 620, 629, 685,
690, 691, 693, 743-753 (testimony), 760, 802, 805
Berman, Sid 788
Blair, Elizabeth 703-706
Blair, Fred B 614, 665, 702-704, 707-709, 744, 776, 777, 803
Brawley, George R 782
Brodsky, Joe L 659
Carlson, Andy 628, 631, 636
Charne, Irvin B 640
Christoffel, Harold 634, 699
■Crawford, Bruce 662
Cricklas, Lila 629
Daigle, Otis 676, 801, 80S-810 (statement)
Davis, James ' 772, 773
Deeavitch, Mr 772
DeMaio, Ernest 773
DeWitt, James (Jimmv) 707-709,723,770-781 (testimony)
Dmytryk, Edward 681
Edelstein, Berniee 611. 629, 690, 697, 720
Erlelstein, Victor , 611, 617, 618, 629, OflO, 697
Eggleston, James R. (Jim) 608-640
(testimony), 653, 661, 667, 677, 679, 6S9, 690, 786, 787, 802
Eisenscher, Ester 612, 663, 675. 6S5
Eisenscher, Grace 623, 624, 703-706
Eisenscher, Isaac 641
Eisenscher, Sigmund G. (Sig) 623, 624, 640-656 (testimony),
657, 665, 667, 675, 676, 703-706, 718, 776, 778, 784, 785, 7S8, 809; 804
Emspak, Julius 659, 660
Essin, M. Michael 657, 728, 770, 790, 796, 813
Essin, Sonya K „ 732
Fairchild, Thomas 743
Falk, Howard 756
Flynn, Elizabeth Gurley 701
Gilbert (Lieutenant) 679, 680, 699
Gilman, Edith 611
Gilman, Helen 611, 624, 629, 677
Gilman. John 624, 629, 647, 648, 766, 782-789 (testimony), 803
Gitlow, Benjamin 659, 683
Gojack, John 772
Goodsitt, Jack L 664,763
Gossell, Betty 609, 611, 621, 678, 680, 683, 693, 700, 802
Green, Gil 702
Hartle, Barbara 614, 615
Haywood, Harry 636
Herndon, Angelo 662
i
li INDEX
Page
Herron, Bill 612, 613, 639, 701
Hirsch, Alfred H. (Al) 657-663 ( testimony ), 676, 687, 800, 801
Hudson, Nada 803
Keith, Mary 610, 623, 639, 682, 803
Keller, Fred 652
Kenny, Herman 721
Killian, Gloria (Mrs. John Killian) 620,621,705-707,720,722,723,817
Killian, John J. (Jack) 620,
621, 631. 634, 705-707, 709, 720-725, 728-735 (testimony, 815-817
Kling, Jack 612, 613, 635, 685, 690, 691, 693, 703-705, 707-709, 748, 776, 777
Lardner, Ring, Jr 681
Lawson, John Howard 681
Levine, Bert 620, 629
Luehterhand, Emil 665
Major, Bert 690
Major, Herb 611, 620, 675, 694, 802, 806
Marino, Dorly 723
Mattis, Sally 802
Mattson, Sally 629
McCain, Douglas 614, 639
McGee, Willie 632, 634, 699
Meister, Jack 801
Nordstrand, Josephine 612, 628, 630, 631, 633, 681, 699, 700,783
Ondrejka, Lillian (nee Rody; Mrs. Michael Ondrejka) 619, 683
685, 693, 716, 720, 802
Ondrejka, Michael J. (Mike) 621,
622, 629, 653, 671-709 (testimony), 715-728 (testimony), 733-735,
740, 761, 776, 777, 797, 799, 801, 806, 809, 814, 816, 818.
Perker, Matt 631, 636
Perlo, Victor 719
Phillips, Jimmy 716
Phillips, Mary Lee (Mrs. Jimmy Phillips) 716, 720
Preloznik, Joseph Frank (Joe) 708,
709, 711-715 (testimony), 720, 724, 733, 734, 740, 777
Rasmussen, Darina (nee Morlac) 813-818 (testimony)
Reams, Andrew (Andy) 611,
623, 624, 626, 627, 633, 635, 637, 638, 703, 802
Robeson, Paul 693
Rody, John 629
Rody, Joseph Sr 693, 707
Rody, Lillian (Lil; Lily). (See Ondrejka, Lillian.)
Rose, Gerald (Jerry) 629,
636, 683, 684, 705, 715, 720-725, 736-742 (testimony), 814-817
Rosenberg, FJthel 719
Rosenberg, Julius 719
Silverstine, Bob 611, 620, 629
Silverstine, Edith 620, 629
Silverstine, I^velyn (Mrs. Ted Silverstine) 716
Silverstine, Harvey 679, 697
Silverstine, Ted 619,
620, 674, 693, 694, 697, 700, 716, 720, 723, 724, 802
Slater, Agnes 623, 698, 720, 722
Smith, Phil 712
Snyder, Edward H 736-742 (testimony)
Snyder, Merle 636,
663, 674-676, 680, 693, 694, 785, 786, 797, 799-808 (testimony), 809
Sommers, George L 676, 790-795 (testimony), 801
Sparks, N 665
Spitz, Milton 611
Stess, Nick 636
Tanner, Barbara 708, 709
Trokan, Betty 720
Vaquer, Michael 698
Virgil, Harry 635,
636, 663, 674-677, 796-798 (testimony) , 800, 801
Virgil, Ida (Mrs. Harry Virgil) 636, 675, 800, 801
Waldman, Phyllis. (See Berger, Phyllis.)
INDEX ii'
Fag*
Wphh Rov
Wolfson, Murray" 623, 624, 703, 763-767 (testimony), 802
Organizations
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 784
American Peace Congress —--7" ™"T ZI^ZZZT
Brewery, Flour, Cereal, Soft Drink, and Distillery Workers of America,
International Union of United — 79-
Cardijn Center by*' oyo
Civil Rights Congress:
Detroit.
Wisconsin.
612,616,
~618,~625, 628, 630-633, 636, 676, 680, 681, 688, 690, 693, 699, 700, 783
Communist Party, Wisconsin:
Dane County, Student Section ™<
Milwaukee ;----, £Jf?
Allen-Bradley Cell 720, 721, 723
Allis-Chalmers Group ™f
Auto Section- - 69^
East Side Branch __"_"_" 663, 675, 676, 793, 797, 798, 800, 801
North Side Club — 666, 667
Seamen Body Branch 685, 690, 702
South Side Group 702, 720, 721, 740
Waukesha Branch J^a
West Allis Women's Group (or West Allis Cell) 686,
f-,ft4-«<>6, 71' \ 707, 716, 70 i
Youth Group 611, 612, 683-087, 689, 690, 692-694, 698, 701
Communist Political Association, Wisconsin 665
Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America, United ----- 673, 770
Local 1111 — — - 713, 730, 732, 814, sis
Farm Equipment and Metal Workers Union, United « «"
Food, Tobacco, Agricultural, and Allied Workers Union of America 79,
International Labor Defense 662
Jefferson School of Social Science — 6?*
Jewish Center.
618,
Labor Youth League 612,615,616,618-622,624,631,
685, 686, 090, (592-694, 697, 698, 700, 701, 707, 715, 717, 723, 724, 747
Milwaukee.
685
Marquette Labor College 708, 712, 777
Methodist Youth Center -- -_------- 694
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People— 61 1 , 618, 638, b94
Peoole's Bookshop - - 610,673,682,684,694,803
People's Progressive ~Party™-~ 636, 674, 676, 689, 690, 698, 700, 708, 800, 806
Sound View Foundation 659
Warsaw Peace Conference 687, 714
Woodworkers of America, International 797
Young Progressives of America 609,610,612,615,616,618,621-624,629,674,
676-682, 684, 687, 692-694, 700, 701, 715, 729, 788, 799-802, 806
PUBLICATIONS
California Eagle - JJJJ
Challenge (see also New Challenge) 7W. ™l
CIO News 659, 801
Wisconsin 660
Civil Rights Champion ™"
Daily Cardinal 743
March of Labor.
661
Negro Liberation 636, 637, 662
New Challenge (see also Challenge) 700
New Masses 66-
Stockholm Peace Petition 68 3,687
Together *. "«oa.fii?
Unity 690-692
Viewpoint 719, 720
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