HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY
E
H
R
b
i
GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA— PART 2
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
JUNE 5, 1956
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INDEX IN PART 4 OF THIS SERIES)
HARVARD LOLLEGE LiSRAR/
DEPOSITED BY THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
.OCT 5 1956
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
81594 WASHINGTON : 1958
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois
CLYDE DOYLE, California BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York
JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee DONALD L. JACKSON, California
EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio
Richard Areks, Director
U
CONTENTS
Executive Hearings (See Part 3)'
June 2, 1956: Testimonj- of— P«g®
Joseph John Schoemehl 4949
Loval Hamniack 4966
George V. L. Hardy 4971
June 4, 1956: Testimony of —
Joseph John Schoemehl (resumed) 4979
Obadiah Jones 4981
Public Hearings
PART 1
June 4, 1956: Testimony of— !*«««
William W. Cortor 4724
Afternoon session:
WiUiam W. Cortor (resumed) 4758
James H. Sage 4761
Elliott Yv'axman 4784
Leslie S. Davison 4793
Sol S. Nissen 4794
John William Simpson 4798
PART 2
June 5, 1956: Testimony of —
John William Simpson (resumed) 4803
William Henry Holland 4808
Harvey John Day 4818
Thelma Hecht (Mrs. Julius Hecht) 4825
Brockman Schumacher 4829
Thomas A. Younglove 4834
Afternoon session:
Thomas A. Younglove (resumed) 4845
Orville Leach 4864
Zollie C. Carpenter 4869
James Payne 4876
Helen Aukamp Sage (Mrs. James H. Sage) 4883
PART 3
June 6, 1956: Testimonv of —
Dr. Sol Londel 4889
William Edwin Davis 4895
Ida Holland (Mrs. William Henry Holland) 4899
Edwin Leslie Richardson 4902
Anne (Ann) Yasgur Kling 4912
Afternoon session:
Anne (Ann) Yasgur Kling (resumed) 4920
Gilbert Harold Hall 4940
Richard L. Stanford 4944
Romey Hudson 4945
» Released by the committee August 24, 1956, and ordered to be printed.
rV CONTENTS
PART 4
June 8, 1956: Testimony of —
Helen Musiel 490:;
Hershel James Walker 5000
George Kimmel 5004
Hershel James Walker (recalled) 5014
Linus E. Wampler 50 17
George Kimmel (recalled) 502(i
Afternoon session:
Dr. John F. Rutledge 502<S
Ella Mae Posey Pappademos 5051
Clara Perkins (Mrs. Haven Perkins) 5058
Haven Perkins 5065
Julius Hecht 5069
Sol Derman 5070
Douglas MacLeod 5072
Index i
Public Laav 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public I^aw 601, 79th Congress (1946), chapter
753, 2d session, which provides:
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assetnhled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activitie.-?, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American Activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all otlier questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to tlie
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un- American
Activities, or any subconimittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
JIULES ADOPTED BY THE 84TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955
*******
Rule X
STAXDIXO COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress:
*******
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS A.\D DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American Activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of
such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to
take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the
signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
NVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA— PART 2
TUESDAY, JUNE 5, 1956
United States House of Represextatives,
vsubcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
St. Louis, Mo.
public hearing
The subcommittee met at 9:15 a. in., pursuant to recess, in com't-
room No. 3, the United States Court and Customs Building, St. Louis,
Mo., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Morgan M. Moulder,
James B. Frazier, Jr., and Gordon H. Scherer.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; George C.
Williams, and Raymond T. Collins, investigators.
(Representatives Morgan M. Moulder and Gordon H. Scherer
were present at the time of convening.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Very well, let's proceed.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. John Simpson, will you return to the witness
stand, please.
Mr. Moulder. Would you be seated, Mr. Simpson.
(Representative James B. Frazier, Jr., entered the hearhig room at
this point.)
TESTIMONY OF JOHN W. SIMPSON— Resumed
Mr. Moulder. AL-. Simpson, yestei'day afternoon you were
provided an oppoi'tunity b\^ this committee to seek counsel to represent
you, as the committee advised you to do. Have you procm'ed counsel?
Mr. Simpson. The liom^s of the Bar Association of St. Louis are —
Monday and Friday they are 10 to 12, and Tuesday, Wednesday, and
Thursday they are 2 to 4. However, I went to the trouble to call up
last night, or this morning, in case the janitor or somebody else was in.
Nobody was in.
Air. Moulder. No one was there.
Did you call or speak or confer with any other attorney?
Mr. Simpson. I don't have the money to pay lawyers.
Mr. Moulder. Are you employed now anywhere?
Mr. Simpson. Yes.
Mr. AlouLDER. You do have an income?
Mr. Simpson. Yes.
480;3
4804 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
iMr. Moulder. Have jo\i attempted to confer with any attorney
to see whether or not they would charge you, or what they would
charge you to represent you as counsel?
Mr. Simpson. It is well known what lawyers charge. I don't have
the money to pay lawyers.
Mr. Moulder. Then you have made no attempt to procure an
attorney?
Mr. Simpson. I made an attempt. I called them twice.
Mr. Moulder. Do you wish to have counsel to represent you?
Mr. Simpson. I don't particularly care.
Mr. ScHERER. I take the same position that I did last night.
It is obvious from this man's statement now and last niglit that
he doesn't want counsel.
Under the Constitution a man l)as the right either in court or
before a hearing and a committee such as this to represent himself.
You can't force counsel upon a man. He has a constitutional right
to represent himself. This man evidently doesn't want the advice
of counsel.
Mr. Moulder. And the committee has no authority or funds, of
course, to provide counsel for him.
Mr. ScHERER. Wlien were you subpenaed?
Mr. Simpson. I don't know. I don't have it with me.
Mr. ScHERER. Counsel, when was the witness subpenaed?
Mr. Simpson. 16th of April, it says.
Mr. ScHERER. I will repeat, Witness, the question I asked you
last night.
Do you read the newspapers?
Mr. Simpson. I am. going to do the same thing I did yesterday.
I am going to plead the fifth amendment and decline to answer.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you in the room yesterday morning when the
chairman of this committee made his opening statement?
Mr. Simpson. Yes, I had to be.
Mr. ScHERER. You were here.
Did you hear what he said with reference to the St. Louis Bar
Association furnishing counsel for witnesses who were unable to obtam
counsel?
Mr. Simpson. Nothing is wrong with my hearing.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you hear that?
Mr. Simpson. Oh, yes, I heard that.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you read m the paper prior to your coming here
yesterday morning that the bar association of
Would you look this way, sir, when I am talkmg to you?
Let the record show that the witness is not even payiiig attention
to this member of the committee while he is talking to him.
I am askmg you this question:
Did you see in the papers prior to coming here yesterday morning; —
or did you have knowledge of the fact that the St. Louis Bar Associa-
tion was furnishing counsel for any witness called before this com-
mittee that did not have the funds to secure counsel or was unable
to obtain counsel for any other reason?
Mr. Simpson. There is something I don't understand.
Am I under oath?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4805
Mr. ScHERER. Yes; you are under oatli. You were sworn yester-
day.
"sir. Simpson. I didn't know whether it continued.
Well, will you repeat the question?
Mr. ScHERER. Would it make any difference whether you were
under oath or not, whether you told the truth? Would that make
any difference, Son?
Air. Simpson. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment and possible self-incrimination.
Mr. ScHERER. I will repeat my original question.
Did you know prior to coming into this courtroom yesterday that
the St. Louis Bar Association was furnishing counsel for witnesses
who were unable to obtain counsel for one reason or for another?
Mr. Simpson. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment and possible self-incrimination.
Air. ScHERER. It is obvious then that we should proceed.
Air. AIouLDER. Proceed, Air. Tavenner.
Air. Tavenner. Air. Simpson, were you subpenaed by a deputy
United States marshal on May 10 to appear as a witness in this
hearing?
(There was no response.)
Air. Tavenner. Alay I correct my question by stating: "You were
subpenaed on Alay 9?"
Air. Simpson. Well, I think I can say that there's two dates on
here. There's June 4, 1956, and April 16, 1956.
Air. Tavenner. Did you take out of j^our pocket the subpena that
was served on you?
Air. Simpson. Yes.
Air. Tavenner. Alay I see it, please?
(Document handed to Air. Tavenner.)
Mr. Tavenner. This subpena bears date the 16tli of April, 1956.
It was served on you, was it not, on the 9th of Alay? Do you recall?
Air. Simpson. I don't know.
Air. Tavenner. All right, hand it back to him.
Air. AIouLDER. Wlio served the subpena?
Air. Tavenner. A deputy United States marshal.
Air. Simpson, you were employed, were you not, at the time that
service was m^ade on you at the Chevrolet plant of General Alotors?
Air. Simpson. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment and possible self-incrimination.
Air. ScHERER. I ask you direct the witness to answer the question.
Air. AIouLDER. The witness is so directed.
Air. ScHERER. You keep in mind what I said to you yesterda}', that
this committee does not accept j^our declination to answer. We feel
that you are not mvoking the fifth amendment in good faith in refus-
ing to answer as to where jou were employed, what your date of birth
was, and your residence.
Air. Tavenner. The committee desires to inquire of you what
knowledge you have regarding an organized group of the Communist
Party in the automotive busmess in St. Louis. So I will ask you the
question, if 3^ou will tell us, please, whether or not there was such an
organized group of the Communist Party established within the auto-
motive industry.
Air. Simpson. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.
81594 — 56 — pt. 2 2
4806 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. jMoulder. Did I understand you to say you decline to answer?
Mr. Simpson. I decline to answer because of possible self-incrimi-
nation.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to ansAver.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there such?
Mr. Moulder. In connection vnih that, the piu'pose of directing
you to answer is to warn you, not in the spirit of a tlu'eat, of the dangers
in which you might be involved in connection with contempt pro-
ceedings, and for yom^ own benefit we dnect you to answer in order to
give you an opportunity to avoid possible contempt proceedings.
Do you still wish to — —
Mr. Simpson. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any knowledge of Communist Party
activities within the automotive industry at the present time?
Air. Simpson. I declme to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. Ai*e you presently a member of any organized
group of the Communist Party within the automotive industry?
Mr. Simpson. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no fmther questions, Mr. Chairman.
Air. AIoulder. All}" questions, Mr. Frazier?
Air. Frazier. Yes.
Are you a member of tlie Communist Party now?
Air. Simpson. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment, of possible self-incrimination.
Air. Frazier. Have vou ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Air. Simpson. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Air. Frazier. That is all.
Air. AIouLDER. Air. Scherer, any questions?
Air. Scherer. No.
I ask you this: Yesterday you were asked where you lived at the
present time. I am going to repeat that question, keeping in mind the
warnings that were given 3'ou yesterday.
Where do you now live?
Air. Simpson. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Air. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Air. AIoulder. The witness is directed to answer that question.
Air. Scherer. And where were you born?
Air. Simpson. I decline to answer on the groimds of the fifth
amendment.
Air. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Air. AIoulder. The witness is so directed.
Air. Scherer. How old are you?
Air. Simpson. I decliae to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment of the Constitution.
Air. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Air. AIoulder. The witness is directed to answer, and further
advised of the danger in which he places himself in connection with
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4807
contempt proceedings for arrogantly and without due cansc refiisijig
to answer the question.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you tell us something of your educational
background.
Mr. Simpson. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment, of possible self-incriniuiation.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct liim to answer.
Mr. ^Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. ScHERER. How long have 3^ou lived in the city of St. Louis?
Mr. Simpson. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment of the Constitution.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is du-ected to answer.
IVIr. Scherer. Did you ever go to school?
Mr. Simpson. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment of the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Do you still decline to answer?
Mr. Simpson. What is the question?
IVIr. Moulder. We direct you to answer that question.
Mr. Simpson. Which question?
Mr. Moulder. Which Mr. Scherer propounded to you. He asked
if you ever went to school.
Mr. Simpson. I decline to answer on the gromids of the fifth amend-
ment.
Air. Scherer. ^'VTiere have you been employed smce 1950?
Mr. Simpson. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Scherer. Are you married?
Mr. Simpson. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Simpson. I still decline to answer.
Mr. Scherer. What is your full name?
Mr. Simpson. John WiUiam Simpson.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Chairman, in view of the conduct of this witness — ■ — •
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. Scherer. ^fr. Chairman, in view of the conduct of this witness
and the fact that he is in obvious contempt of the Congress of the
United States, I now move that this committee recommend to the full
committee when it meets in executive session that John William
Simpson be cited for contempt.
\li\ Moulder. It has been duly moved by Mr. Scherer, of Ohio,
that the witness John Simpson be cited for contempt, and that this
subcommittee so recommend to the full committee to take such action.
Mr. Frazier. Second.
Mr. Moulder. And the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Frazier,
seconds the motion made l)y the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Scherer.
Therefore, the chair now will call the roll of the vote of the sub-
committee on the motion.
Members of the committee who are in favor of the motion made by
Afr. Scherer will answer "Ave," and those opposed will answer "No."
Mr. Scherer of Ohio?
4808 COMMXJNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. Vote "aye."
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Frazier, of Tennessee?
Mr. Frazier. Aye.
Mr. Moulder. The chairman, Morgan Moulder, also votes "aye."
Therefore, the committee, having unanimously voted that the
witness John Simpson be cited for contempt; the subcommittee will
so recommend to the full committee to take such action.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. William Henry Holland.
Mr. Moulder. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about
to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth
and nothmg but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr. Holland. I do.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM HENRY HOLLAND
Mr. Tavenner. Wb.at is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Holland. William Henrj^ Holland.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Holland, it is noted that you arc not accom-
panied by comisel. It is the practice of the committee to advise each
witness that he has the right to have counsel with him or to consult
counsel at any time during his questioning if he so desires.
When and where were you born, Mr. Holland?
Mr. Holland. Galena, Kans., December 4, 1925.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you now reside?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that quostio]i on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion as to where he now resides.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed.
The purpose of our directing joii to answer the question that
counsel has propounded to 3'ou is to advise you that in refusing to
answer without good cause or in good faith you may be placed in a
position whereby it will be necessary for the subcommittee to recom-
mend tliat A"Ou be cited for contempt. And a direction is not in the
spirit of threatening you or coercing 3"0u, but for your ovvn benefit.
Therefore, 3-ou are directed to answer.
Mr. Holland. I believe I must stand by my former answer.
Mr. IMouLDER. You mean you reassert your — — •
Mr. Holland. I reassert the privilege.
Mr. Moulder. Your former response. You didn't answer.
Mr. Holland. I reassert the privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, if you know
how many organized groups of the Communist Party there are at
Fisher Bod}' plant in St. Louis?
Mr. Holland. I reassert tlie privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you employed at the Fisher Body plant?
Mr. Holland. I am.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been enqjloyed there?
Mr. Holland. Is an estimate good?
Approximately 3^ years.
Mr. Tavenner. Approximatel}' 3K 3'ears.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Tavenner, the first question was where the
witness resided.
Did vou state vour name for the record?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4809
Mr. Holland. I did state my name for tlie record. I am not
certain.
Mr. Moulder. Would you please state your name for tlio record?
Mr. Holland. William Henry Holland.
Mr. Moulder. And you declined to answer the question as to
where you reside?
Mr. Holland. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. May I interrupt.
Do you honestly feel that to answer the question as to where you
noAv live might tend to incriminate you? Do you honestly believe
that?
Mr. Holland. I will be forced to reassert the privilege to the
question.
Air. ScHERER. I think the courts have said that he must answer that
question, and I ask you direct the witness.
That is the basis for his being permitted to refuse to answer the
question, on the grounds of the fifth amendment, namely that he
honestly feels in good faith that to answer the question might tend to
incriminate him.
Mr. Moulder. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Holland. I believe the answer might be used in prosecutioii
against me.
Mr. ScHERER. You do.
That is a proper answer then, a proper response.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Holland, were you at any time a leader of a
group of the Communist Party while employed at Fisher Body plant?
Mr. Holland. I decline to answer that on the same gTOunds.
Mr. Tavenner. You were so identified by a witness who testified
here yesterday morning — Mr, Cortor. In fact, Mr. Cortor testified
that )^ou were the leader of a group, and that he was in your group.
Was there any part of that testimony, insofar as it related to 3"0U,
false?
Mr. Holland. I decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Holland, please speak up. ^Ve cannot hear 3'ou.
Mr. Holland. I decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Holland, 3'our name appears in a notebook of
Mr. James Sage which was in his possession on June 18, 1951, indicat-
ing that you were the leader of a group which evidently intended to go
to Chicago for some convention.
Did you go to Chicago in 1951 to a convention?
!Mr. Holland. I decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Air. Tavenner. Did Mr. Sage solicit your attendance at the con-
vention in Chicago on June 29 and 30 sponsored by the American
Peace Crusade?
Mr. Holland. I will decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, to what extent
the Communist Party was instrumental in arranging for the trans-
portation of people from St. Louis to Chicago in June of 1951 ?
Air. Holland. I decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
4810 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
!Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been.
Mr. HoLLAXD. I have a statement which will explain certain factors
about my education and employment, which I would like to submit.
I asked to submit it earlier.
Mr. Moulder. Do vou wish to file the statement with the commit-
tee?
Mr. Holland. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. All right.
The statement now being presented by the witness will be duly
filed and marked "Holland Exhibit No. 1," for identification purposes
only.
(The statement referred to was filed for the information of the com-
mittee.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please, sir?
Mr. Holland. I have a bachelor's degree.
Mr. Tavenner. From what place?
Mr. Holland. Washington University.
Mr. Scherer. I am sorry but I can't hear the witness. He had
some kind of degree, but I didn't hear what he said.
Mr. Holland. I have a bachelor's degree from Washington Uni-
versity.
Mr. Scherer. Can't you talk just a little louder?
Mr. Holland. I have a bachelor's degree from Washington Uni-
versity.
Mr. Scherer. Bachelor's degree in what?
Mr. Holland. In physics.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you receive your degree?
Mr. Holland. In 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. In June 1950?
Mr. Holland. It could have been: I could have been in the
January class. The degrees, I believe, are conferred in June. And
I was — I would liave been in the January class, but the degree was
not conferred until June — that is, whatever you want to call it.
Mr. Scherer. I am sorry. Maybe my hearing is bad, but I can't
hear this witness.
Mr. Holland. I was asked whether it was January or June of 1950,
and I pointed oiit that I am uncertain of the date because the com-
mencement was in June, and, whereas I had earned the degree m
January— —
Mr. Tavenner. After completion of your work in school for the
degree what was your first employment?
Mr. Holland. The first job I was able to obtain was in a trailer-
renting establishment.
Mr. Tavenner. And then what was j'our next job? With the
Fisher Body plant?
Mr. Holland. No, it was not.
My next job was American Manganese Steel, as a chemist.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was that? In St. Louis?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4811
Mr. Holland. Wellston. It is a suburb.
Mr. Tavenxer. Was your next employnieut with Fisiier Body?
Mr. Holland. No. Aly next employment was with General
Steel Casting.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the period of your employment there?
Mr. Holland. It was 1 3^ear; the last part of 1951 to September of
1952. I could be a month off.
Mr. Tavenner. What emplo3'ment followed that?
Mr. Holland. I then went to E'isher Body.
Mr. Tavenner. So you became employed at Fisher Body at what
date?
Mr. Holland. September 17, 1952.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
the time that you became employed by Fisher Body?
Mr. Holland. I decline to answer that question on the previous
grounds.
Mr, Tavenner. I hand you a copy of yom- application for employ-
ment at the Fisher Body plant. It is purportedly signed by you,
William Hemy Holland. WiU you examine it, please, and state
whether or not it is the application submitted by you.
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Holland. I will refuse to answer that question on the previous
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Is your refusal to answer that question based on
the fact that you concealed the information requested on this applica-
tion as to your college training?
Mr. Holland. I will refuse to answer that question on the previous
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. You did actually conceal that information from
youi' employer, did you not?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same
gi'ounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I deshe to introduce into evidence
the application for employment by William Henry Holland, with the
Fisher Body plant, ask that it be marked "Holland Exliibit No. 2"
for identification and retained in the files of the committee.
Mr. Moulder. The application referred to will be marked "Holland
Exhibit No. 2," and will be admitted as requested by counsel.
(The document referred to was marked "Holland Exhibit No. 2"
and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chahman, may I interrupt again to ask this
witness a question?
You submitted a statement to this committee, which I have.
Were the statements in this memorandum that you submitted to
the committee true?
Mr. Holland. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. You understand you are under oath?
Mr. Holland. Yes; I understand that.
Mr. ScHERER. And you say that all of the statements contained in
this memorandum that you submitted to the committee are true?
Mr. Holland. They are true to the best of my knowledge, yes.
4812 COilJIUXIST ACTIVITIES IX ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
]Mr. ScHERER. And you want the committee to consider these state-
ments and make them part of the records of the committee. Is that
right?
Air. Holland. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. All right then, JMr. Chairman, I ask that you direct
the witness to answer Mr. Tavenner's question with reference to the
application that he filed for employment, because in the statement
that he submitted to the committee he explains why, or attempts to
explain why, he is working as a semiskilled worker in a factory. And
if he has done that, since he has done that — and he has certainly done
it voluntarily — since he has done that he has certainly waived any
privilege that he might have in this instance to invoke the fifth
amendment.
In the statement, among other things, he sa3^s:
I am now working as a semiskilled worker in a factory; this in spite of the fact
that I have an A. B. degree in phj'sics.
And then he goes on in this statement to discuss, in full, his employ-
ment and why he is so employed and why he accepted a job.
"^A^ien he submits that to the committee — ^and did so under oath —
and wants it to be considered as a part of the record, we certainly have
the right to ask him concerning that statement, to cross-examine him.
And when vre do ask him questions with reference to material that he
has submitted in this statement he certainly does not have the right
now to invoke the fifth amendment and refuse to answer those ques-
tions.
Will you, Mr. Tavenner, repeat then your question so the record
may be absolutely clear. Repeat your question with reference to his
application for employment.
^Ir. Tavenner. Mr. Holland, did you conceal from your employer
the information requested in the form of application, as to whether
or not you had had coUege training?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. In \dew of what I have said, in view of what has
transpired, Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to answer
the cpiestion.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is du-ected to answer the question.
Mr. Holland. I have stated that I work at Fisher Body. I be-
lieve that is the point at issue, is it not?
Mr. ScHERER. The point at issue is the question asked you by Mr.
Tavenner; why you didn't disclose on your application for employ-
ment the fact that you had a degree in chemistry from Washington
University. That is the question.
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer.
Mr. ScHERER. That is the real point at issue in this case. That is
the thing we are investigating.
Now I feel that if you do not answer that question, in view of what
I have said you placed yoiu-self in contempt of this committee. And,
with that explanation, I think you should answer at the direction of
the chairman
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Moulder. May I make this comment:
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4813
ItTias been my observ^ation and my understanding, too, from hearings
had before the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, that
there is an acute shortage of engineers, chemists, physicists thi'oughout
the country, and great need for their services. But, in spite of the
fact that you were so specially trained, you chose to work on the
assembly line. That is something that we are trying to find out,
why 3^0 u do that.
Mr. Holland. I believe I explained that in my statement, that I
was financially unable to work in that field with what jobs I could find.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Were j'ou approached by any functionary of the
Communist Party to take part in the colonization plan of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner Namely, to get into industry.
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you advised by any functionary of the Com-
munist Party to conceal the fact that you had a degree in physics in
order to help you get in as a laborer in an industrial plant for the
purpose of taking leadership in the Communist Party within that
plant?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it a fact that that is the reason that you sought
employment in the Fisher Body plant as a laborer when you were
highly trained?
Mr. Holland. I am not sure what that question means.
Mr. Tavenner. If I haven't made it plain will you strike the
question.
Is it a fact that you sought emplovment in the Fisher Body plant
in a type of work that required ordinary labor when you were trained
as a physicist in order that you might become a leader in the field of
labor and in the Communist Party?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask again that you direct this wit-
ness to answer the question for the simple reason that in the statement
that he submitted to this committee, which he said is true, under oath,
he gives an explanation as to why he sought emplo^Tnent in a plant
as a laborer.
Therefore, we certainly, as I said before, have the right to cross-
examine him on the basis of the statement he submitted. And he
certainly is not entitled to invoke the fifth amendment.
I ask that you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Holland. Would you state the question?
In your speech on communism I am afraid I missed the essential
point of the question. Is it why I went to work at Fisher Body?
Mr. Tavenner. Very well.
Did you seek employment at Fisher Body in a position as a
laborer
Mr. Holland. I am not working as a laborer.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the exact position that you took when
you first went with Fisher Body?
Mr. Holland. I am a semi-skilled worker.
81594 — 56 — pt. 2 3
4814 COTVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of that work?
Mr. Holland. Door hanging. I hang doors.
Mr. Tavenner. You hang doors on the assembly hne?
Mr. Holland. Yes; it is a semi-skilled job.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you accept a position or seek a position at the
Fisher Body plant on the assembly line although you were trained as
a physicist in order that you might take leadership in the field of labor
and the Communist Party?
You understand the question now; do 3"ou not?
Mr. Holland. I believe so.
Mr. Moulder. You are directed to answer the question.
You do understand the question?
Mr. Holland. I stated ni}- reason in the pamphlet for taking the
job.
I took the job for economic reasons.
This is the content of your question. That was the reason I took
the job.
Mr. Moulder. Do you decline to answer the question now pro-
poimded by Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Holland. That would constitute a "No" answer to his ques-
tion ; would it not?
Mr. Moulder. Do 3'ou now decline to answer his question?
Mr. Holland. I am saying that my statement, I believe, consti-
tutes an answer of "No" to his question.
Mr. ScHERER. Then I think the witness should answer.
Not what he thinks his
Mr. Holland. That is my answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Yom- answer is that you did not take that position
with a view of becoming active in the field of labor and the Communist
Party?
Mr. Holland. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Then why did 3'ou conceal the fact that you were
college-trained ?
Mr. Holland. I will refuse to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Scherer. I don't want to be repetitious, but it is for the
reasons that I have already stated, that he has opened up the door.
We certainly have the right to ask him, cross-examine him with
reference to this statement that he submitted to the committee.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed.
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you told to conceal that fact by members
of the Communist Party?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same
gi'ounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Didn't you actually intend, when you became so
employed, to cooperate with the Communist Party in its plan of
colonization in industry?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Scherer. I think there should be a direction to answer that
question.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4815
I am again reading liis statement, and certainly, Lii light of his
statement, we have a right to ask him that question.
Air. jMoulder. The witness is so du-ected to answer.
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question; same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. You did, very shortly after becoming employed
hj Fisher Body, become the leader of a group of the Communist
Part}^ consisting solely of employees of Fisher Body, did you not?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. You are the leader of such a group now; are you
not?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same
groimds.
Mr. Tavenner. While in Washington University did you become
acquainted with James H. Sage?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Was James Sage also employed at Fisher Body
at any time while you were there?
Mr. Holland. I don't believe I can answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. The record of his employment was introduced in
evidence showing that he was reemploj^ed on August 13, 1952. I am
not certain how long his emplo^mrent continued or as to whether he
is still employed there. My recollection is he is not employed there
now.
Did you know of his employment while you were so employed?
Mr. Holland. 1 did not know of his employment.
Mr. Tavenner. You did not know?
The testimony also is that he obtained employment in 1950. Were
you aware of the circiunstances under which he sought employment?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether he was part of the coloniza-
tion plan in industry of the Communist Party?
Air. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Air. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with him at Washington
University?
Air. Holland. I will refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Air. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party
group while in attendance at Washington University?
Air. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same gi'ounds.
Air. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Part.j'?
Air. Holland. 1 refuse to answer that question on tlie same giounds.
Air. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist
Party at any time or times that 1 have not specificall}' inquhed about?
Air. Holland. I will refuse to answer that question on the same
giounds.
Air. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Air. AlouLDER. Air. Frazier, any questions?
Air. Frazier. Did you know James H. vSage when you were attend-
ing the University" of Washington?
4816 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Frazier. You graduated in the same class with him from the
business school; didn't you?
Mr. Holland. I did not take part in the commencement.
Mr. Frazier. I didn't ask you whether 3^ou took part in the com-
mencement. I asked you if you gi-aduated in the same class with
James H. Sage.
Mr. Holland. I will be forced to refuse to answer that question on
the same gi'ounds.
Mr. Frazier. At the same time you got your bachelor's degree in
business he got a master's degree in business from Washington
University; didn't he?
Mr. Holland. I beg your pardon. I didn't receive a degree in
business.
Mr. Frazier. All right, you got yom- bachelor's degree in what?
Mr. Holland. Physics.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. Were you in the hearing room yesterday when
William Cortor testified?
Mr. Holland. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Did you hear his testimony?
Mr. Holland. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Did you hear his testimony in reference to you?
Mr. Holland. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Did you hear him say that you were a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Holland. Yes, I guess so.
Mr. Scherer. Did William Cortor tell the truth?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. In this statement which you submitted to the com-
mittee you say, in part:
This search soon led me to an article in one of our local papers describing one
witness who was to be called whom they described as a "colonizer." Here I found
the ambiguous circumstances around which an imaginative and unprincipled
professional stool pigeon might spin a web of lies for my entrapmer>+.
Were you referring to Cortor as a stool pigeon?
Mr. Holland. I believe he works as a stool pigeon; does he not?
Mr. Scherer. Were you referring to him as a stool pigeon?
Mr. Holland. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. All right. Wliat is a stool pigeon?
Mr. Holland. I believe a stool pigeon is a person who, for some
reason, seeks to entrap others for criminal prosecution.
Mr. Scherer. He was working for the Government of the United
States.
Now, u-respective of what you think about Cortor, you have called
him a stool pigeon and indicated that he spun a web of lies.
Now you have the opportunity here, young man, to say under oath
what this man, whom you have called a stool pigeon and say spun a
web of lies, lied about you when he told about your activities in the
Communist Party. And this is yom- opportunity.
Did this man, whom you brand as a stool pigeon, an unprincipled
individual, a spinner of lies, lie before this committee under oath?
Mr. Holland. I will be forced to refuse to answer that question on
the grounds
COMMUNIST ACTWITIES IN ST, LOUIS, MO., AREA 4817
Mr. ScHERER. You are not forced to answer that. We are asking
you now.
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. Whom do you expect us to beheve then? This man
who came here under oath and testified freely and openly, or you
here, a man who calls him a stool pigeon and who slanders him?
And then you are unwilling to say to this committee that he did lie
about you. Why?
Mr. Moulder. I have a question to ask you.
Have 3"0u ever read this pamphlet, this alleged paper entitled
"The St. Louis Defender," issued by the St. Louis Emergency Defense
Committee?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. ScHERER. Just one more question.
Do 3''0u know the witness Elliott Waxman who testified here vester-
day?
Mr. Holland. I will refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. ScHERER. You heard him testify; did you not?
Mr. Holland. I heard his testimony.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you prepare his statement that he submitted to
the committee?
Mr. Holland. I will have to refuse to answer that; fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. ScHERER. I do not think Waxman, with his lack of educational
backgi'ound, could prepare the memorandum that he submitted to this
committee. But the language in his memorandum is strikingly simdar
to that which is in yours, your memorandum that you submitted to the
committee. It uses some of the same phrases, some of the same
language, some of the same words.
Do you want to tell us whether you helped prepare his memo-
randum?
Mr. Holland. I will refuse to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. The language that appears in a couple of paragraphs
of this buhetin, issued on May 26, 1956, entitled "The St. Louis
Defender," is strikingly similar to the language that you used in your
memorandum.
Did you have anything to do with the preparation of this pamphlet?
Mr. Holland. I will refuse to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. It was reported to us that prior to the beginning
of the hearings that there was a meeting in some hotel, the name of
which I don't remember, hj persons who had been subpenaed by this
committee, and possibly other persons, who held a conference in this
meeting and discussed their conduct and decisions as to how they would
testify or refuse to testify before this committee.
Did you attend or participate in such a meeting?
Mr. Holland. Could you teU me the date of that meeting?
Mr. ScHERER. Irrespective of
Mr. Moulder. It has been during the past mouth.
Have you ever attended any such meetmg regardless of the date?
Mr. Holland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
4818 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. Why did you want to know the date if you were
going to refuse to answer the question?
Mr. Holland. It was a different question I refused to answer.
Mr. Moulder. Tbe witness is excused, and may claim his attend-
ance fees with the clerk of the committee.
Air. Tavenner. Mr. John Day.
Will you come forward; please, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimonj^ which you are about to
give before the subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr. Day. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HARVEY JOHN DAY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL;
DOUGLAS MacLEOD
(The Avitness confers with his counsel)
Mr. MacLeod. IMy name is Douglas MacLeod, attorney-at-law,
722 Chestnut Street. I represent Mr. Day. Mr. Chairman, Mr.
Day is an unwilling witness. He will give the committee no informa-
tion that could be helpful to this committee along the lines that have
been asked about.
Mr. Scherer. May I interrupt?
Mr. MacLeod. I insist that the taxpayers' money not be wasted,
my time, and the committee's time, and Mr. Day's time, and that he
not be harassed.
Any questions could obviously be only for the purpose
Mr. Moulder. Under the rules of the committee, you can repre-
sent your client and advise him. But" if j^ou don't conduct yourself
properl.v under the rules of the committee you can be ejected from the
hearing room unless you desist.
Proceed with the examination of the witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name?
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds — on the
basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. You refuse to state your name?
Mr. Scherer. I ask you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. My name is Harvey John Day, and I live at
Mr. MacLeod. Wait until they ask you.
Mr. Tavenner. Let the record show that counsel for the witness
has already identified himself as Douglas MacLeod.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't get the name.
Mr. Tavenner. Douglas MacLeod.
When and where were jou born, Mr. Day?
Mr. Day. I was born at Washburn, Mo., about 3^ miles out of
Washburn, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now live in St. Louis?
Mr. Day. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside?
Mr. Day. In Kobertson is my address, Robertson, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. How far is that from St. Louis?
Mr. Day. It is about 18 miles, I judge; 18, 20 miles.
COIvmiUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4819
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived at that place or m the
vicinity of St. Louis?
(The witness confers with liis counsel.)
Mr. Day. About 3 years, I would judge.
Wait a minute, wait a minute. About a year and a half or some
such matter as that.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a document marked for identification
purposes only as "Day Exhibit No. 1." It is a photostatic copy of the
September 28, 1938, issue of the Daily Record of Chicago, 111., and
refer you to an article entitled "Name CP Head."
Will you examine it, please?
(Document handed to counsel for the witness.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. I will refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine it, please? That was my
c^uestion.
Mr. Day. No.
Mr. Moulder. Let the record show that counsel received the
document referred to by Mr. Tavenner, and refused to give the
witness an opportunit}'' to examine it.
Mr. AIacLeod. Let the record show the document is on the table
in front of the witness, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. It is now.
Mr. Moulder. You are directed to examine the document in
order that you might be asked a ciuestion concerning the document.
Mr. Scherer. Before we proceed any further, while he is examining
it, I think if counsel in this case does not know the rules of this com-
mittee, counsel is here by permission of the committee under the
rules of this committee, and he has no right to make any statenient
whatsoever.
Under the rules he has the right to consult with his client, the wit-
ness, and advise his client as to his constitutional rights, and nothing
else.
If counsel persists in violating that rule, then I shall ask that he
be removed from the hearing room.
Mr. Tavenner. You have examined the article that I referred to?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I have not asked you any question as to the content
of it. My question was whether or not you have examined the article
that I handed j^ou. Have you?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
(There was no response.)
Mr. Tavenner. If you haven't, if there is any question in your
mind, hand it back to him again, and I will ask him to examine it.
(Document handed to the witness.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. I am not required here to give testimony that wiU lead
to a chain agamst me.
Mr. Moulder. We don't know. You have refused to look at the
document referred to by counsel which has been handed to you.
How do you know whether or not it would incrimmate you unless you
have had an opportunity to examine it?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
4820 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Moulder. Therefore, you are requested and directed to ex-
amine the document referred to by counsel.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. My only question was, have you examined it?
Mr. Day. And the congressman's question?
Mr. Moulder. I merely directed you to examine the document.
Mr. Day. I understand.
See, under this pretense, Congressman
Mr. Moulder. You can read, can't you?
Mr. Day. I imagme so.
Mr. Moulder. You are then asked and requested to read the docu-
ment that has been handed to you by Mr. Williams and which Mr.
Tavenner refers to for the purpose of giving you an opportunity to
inform yourself when he might ask any question concemuig the docu-
ment.
It certainly wouldn't incriminate you to look at the document.
(The witness confers with his comisel.)
Mr. Day. I understand this document; it's already been identified
and put into the record, identifying me with the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. That isn't the point.
Counsel wants you to read a certain article
Mr. Day. Now have I an}^ right to refuse to be identified here,
to
Mr. Moulder. Did I understand you refuse to read the document
he has handed to you for the purpose of informing you, and giving
him an opportunity to question you about it?
Mr. Day. I still refuse under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. You are directed to look at the document.
Now do you decline to do so?
Mr. Day. Sir?
Mr. Moulder. Do you decline to read the document, to examine
it as requested by counsel?
I say do you decline?
Mr. Day. I thought that was alread}'". I decline to answer and
identify myself.
That is all.
Mr. Moulder. You are not asked to identify it. Coimsel has
asked you to examine it and read it.
Mr. ScHERER. The witness has had ample opportunity to comply
with the direction of the chair. He has consulted with his counsel,
and evidently received advice from counsel not to read or look at the
document.
I suggest that we proceed with the next question.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you hand me the document?
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, please.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Day, the article that I asked you to examine
under the title of "Name CP Head" is as follows:
St. Louis, September 27. — John Day, returned veteran of the Abraham Lincoln
Battalion in Spain, and resident of Joplin, Mo., was elected chairman of the dis-
trict committee of the Communist Party of Missouri and Arkansas, at its quarterly
meeting in this city yesterday.
Are you the John Day referred to in that article?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4821
Mr. Day. I decline to answer on the grounds giv^en, the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a veteran of the Abraham Lincoln Bri-
gade in Spain?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. Counsel, could I appeal to Congressman Moulder?
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
Mr. Day. I want to be fair and answer the question fairly. And I
am proud of my record in Spain.
There, I considered a people who had elected their government.
The king had left.
And they were attacked.
Beheve me, I saw the bombing of Merida.
Mr. Moulder. Will you answer the question?
Mr. Day. I am answering 3^our question, Mr. Congressman.
Am I right in telling you — Yes; I went to Spain. I served 17
months in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.
And I am inordinately proud of it, Congressman Moulder. I am.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
you went to Spain?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer that question,
Mr. Tavenner. Were you recruited for service in Spain by the
Communist Party in St. Louis?
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Then this article correctly describes the John Day
referred to as you, does it not, w^hen it says John Day, returned
veteran of the Abraham Lincoln Battalion?
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, when he says that he did go to Spain
and fight in the Spanish Civil War certainly he opens the door to
questions as to how he was recruited to go to Spain, who recruited
him, the circumstances involving his going to Spain.
Therefore, I think you should direct the witness to answer Mr.
Tavenner's question as to whether or not he was recruited by the
Communist Party here in St. Louis to go to Spain.
And he has no right to invoke the fifth amendment in view of the
fact that he said he did go to Spain.
Mr. Moulder. Very well.
The witness is so directed. And the direction is not given in the
spirit of a threat, as we have stated heretofore to other witnesses,
but for -the purpose of advising 3^ou, giving you an opportunity to
avoid any possible prosecution for contempt.
Therefore, j^ou are directed to answer, Mr. Day.
Mr. Day. The answer is "No." I refuse; I plead the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Scherer, The answer is what?
Mr. Day, No,
Mr. Scherer, The answer is "No," he said then, and the fifth
amendment.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. I withdraw that.
The answer is that I decline to answer on the grounds of it might
incriminate me. I am not a lawyer.
81594— 56— pt. 2 i
4822 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. I thought that was what you answered.
Will you repeat your other question, Mr. Tavenner. I was a little
lax in not asking that the du'ection be made at the time you asked the
question.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe I followed it with this question:
This article, in referring to John Day as a veteran who had returned
from the Abraham Lincoln Battalion, described you correctly, did it
not?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Correctly referred to him?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Day. I don't believe there is any question about that.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well, sir.
Then this article does refer to you?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. I decline to answer on the grounds •
Mr. Tavenner. You have just said there was no question about
the fact of that, that it did refer to you. Are you trying now to
change your answer?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. I didn't intend so to state. I was
Mr. Tavenner. Why are you now changing your answer?
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer that on the grounds
Mr. Tavenner. Were you told to change your answer?
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer on the grounds given.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you live in Joplin, Mo., on the 28th day of
September 1938?
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer on the grounds given.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your answer?
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer on the grounds given.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the mtness to answer the ques-
tion where he lived in 1938.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Let the record show" that the committee refuses to
accept his answer.
Mr. Day. I am unclear. Is this the date mentioned in the article
that you gave me?
Mr. Tavenner. It is the date of the publication of the newspaper.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. Then I assert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever Hved in Joplin, Mo.?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. I appeal to the chairman, and I w^ould like to go along as
long as I am not identifying myself with anything in this article.
Mr. Tavenner. You are going along very slowly.
Mr. Moulder. He asked over what period of time you resided there.
Mr. Day. I was brought to Joplin as a child. My folks moved
from Washburn. And I attended the schools there, the Emerson
School in Joplin.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you live there?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4823
Air. Day. Well, it was a matter of several yeare.
Mr. Tavenner. How long?
Mr. Moulder. Approximately.
(The ^vitness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. About 24 years, I guess.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you leave Joplin?
Mr. Day. Well, I left when I was a young man for a while, around
19 years old, and went up to Pittsburg, Kans.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you live in Joplin in 1940?
Mr. Day. I beheve I was there a while in 1940. Not long.
Mr. Tavenner. How long prior to 1940 had you lived there?
Air. Day. Prior to 1940: there was a period there that I was in
Pittsburg, Kans., and then I worked down in Texas.
Mr. Tavenner. Let's come right to the point.
Did you live there in 1938?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
(There was no response.)
Mr. Tavenner. Do I understand you refuse to answer?
Air. Day. No. The answer is no, I don't think I was there in 1938,
if my memory serves me correctly.
Air. Tavenner. Then as of the date of this pubhcation, September
28, 1938, you were not a resident of Joplin?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer on the grounds given.
Air. Tavenner. Were you elected to the District Committee of the
Communist Party for the States of Alissouri and Arkansas?
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer
Mr. Tavenner. On September 27, 1938.
Mr. Day. I mvoke the fifth amendment, I refuse to answer on the
gi'ounds given.
Air. Tavenner. I hand 3^ou a photostatic copy of the May 23, 1940
issue of the Daily Worker, and refer you to an article appearing in the
left-hand column of the paper. Will you examine it, please.
(Document handed to counsel for the witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. And while he is doing so. Air. Chahman, I vrould
like to have the photostatic copy of the September 28, 1938 issue of
the Daily Record marked "Day Exhibit No. 1" for identification
purposes and filed for the records of the committee.
Air. AIouLDER. So ordered.
(The document referred to marked "Day Exhibit No. 1," was filed
for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Tavenner. Accordmg to an article appearing in the Alay 23,
1940 issue of the Daily Worker it was stated that John Day, Spanish
Republican veteran, ^vill run for governor, and Marcus Murphy, local
Negro leader, will be a candidate for lieutenant governor of the State
of Missouri.
This was at the end of a State convention of the Communist Party
of Missouri.
Were you a candidate for governor in the State of Alissouri?
(The Tvdtness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer that on the grounds given.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a candidate for any-State position on the
Communist Party ticket?
Air. Day. I refuse to answer on the grounds given.
4824 COIVIIVIUNIST activities est ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner, Were you also a candidate for Congress from your
district on the Communist Party ticket?
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer on the grounds given.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you employed at any time at Lincoln-
Mercury plant?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Day. I guess that is a well-kno^vn fact.
Mr. Tavenner. You are employed there now, are you not?
Mr, Day. I am employed there; yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so employed?
Mr. Day. About 3 years.
Mr. Tavenner. "Vi^iile emploA-ed thei-e have you been a member of
an organized group of the Communist Party in that industry?
Mr. Day. Well, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
given.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Day. I refuse to answer on the grounds given.
Mr. Tavenner. Have vou ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Day. I refuse to ansv.'er tlie question on the grounds given.
Ml". Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moi^lder. Questions. Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Questions, Mr. Seherer?
Mr. ScHERER. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. No questions from the Chair.
You are excused as a witness, Mr. Day.
Mr. MacLeod. I wonder if, at this time, the Chair would care to
apologize for the untoward incident toward me as counsel lun'e this
morning.
Mr. Moulder. Neither the Chair nor this committee will tolerate
any disturbances or any attempt to harass the committee by state-
ments from you.
You have been subpenaed as one of the witnesses, and you will
have an opportunity to testify.
Mr. MacLeod. Thank you, Mr. Chaiiman.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will stand in recess for a period of
5 minutes.
(Wliereupon, a short recess was taken, there being present at the
time of taking the recess Representatives Moulder, Frazier, and
Seherer.)
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess, there
being present Representatives Moulder, Frazier, and Seherer.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Call yom' next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Thelma Hecht.
Will 5'ou come forward, please.
Mr. Moulder. Mrs. Hecht, will you raise your right hand and be
sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give
before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Hecht. I do.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4825
TESTIMONY OF THELMA HECHT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
IRL B. BARIS
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please.
Mrs. Hecht. Thelma Hecht.
Mr. Tavenner. H-e-c-h-t?
Mrs. Hecht. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify himself for the record.
Mr. Baris. M}^ name is Irl B. Baris, the first name spelled I-r-I^
the last name B-a-r-i-s, attornej^ at law, licensed to practice in the
State of ^lissom-i. I have offices in the Arcade Building in St. Louis,
Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. Ai-e you a native of St. Louis, Mrs. Hecht?
Mrs. Hecht. Yes, I am.
Mr. Tavenner. Will j^ou tell the committee, please, briefly what
your formal educational training has been.
Mrs. Hecht. I finished the eighth grade, and I have approximately
3 years of high school.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
employment has been since 1950?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
!NIrs. Hecht. I have no objections to telling about my occupation
now, but I refuse under the fifth amendment to ansM^er any questions
on previous occupations.
Mr. Tavenner. To make the matter short, over what period of
time do you refuse to answer any questions as to your employment?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hecht. I refuse to answer as to anything that is not connected
with my present employment.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your present employment?
Mrs. Hecht. I am a housewife.
Mr. Tavenner. During the period of the time you have been
married, have you had employment in industry?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
!\Irs. Hecht. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hecht. On the self-incrimination provision.
Mr. Scherer. I ask you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
iNIrs. Hecht. I refuse to answer based on the clause in the fifth
amendment, as to the self-incrimination clause.
Mr. Moulder. Then it may help you for counsel and you both to
understand, if j^ou wish to claim that same privilege you may state-
for the record you decline to answer for the same reason, and it will
be understood in the record that you are claiming the privilege under
the Constitution as you have just stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Airs. Hecht, how could you conscientiously claim
that it might tend to incriminate you to admit that you had been
employed in industry at any time during your married life?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hecht. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
4826 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, AIO., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. I think that she must answer that question yes or
no under the decisions of the courts because Air. Tavenner is putting
the question to her now which tests her good faith in use of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Moulder. As suggested by Mr. Scherer, you are directed to
answer.
Mrs. Hecht. Will you repeat the question, please.
Mr. Tavenner. My question was:
How could you in good faith or conscientiously claim that it might
tend to incriminate you if you admitted that you worked in industry
at any time during your married life.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hecht. I feel that, based on the testimony of other witnesses
and so on, that I feel that I want to claim the privileges of the fifth
amendment because it might incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Now you have referred to the testimony of other
witnesses. Are you referring to the testimony of Mr. Cortor?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hecht. I refer to the questions that are directed to aU
witnesses.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Cortor in his testimony identified you as the
head or the leader of a group of the Commmiist Party on the West
Side m 1951.
Was he correct in his testimony insofar as it related to you?
(The Mdtness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hecht. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. If that testimony be correct you are in a position
to advise this committee as to the operations of an organized group of
the Communist Party in this area at a very recent date. So I want
to ask you whether or not you were a member of an organized group
of the Communist Party at any time between 1951 and 1954.
Mrs. Hecht. I refuse to answer on the same gi'ounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of an organized group of
the Communist Party?
Mrs. Hecht. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Your name appeared m a notebook which was in
the possession of James Sage on June 18, 1951. Your name appeared
there as the head of a group of people who apparently, from the con-
text of the notes, mtended to go to Chicago for the convention held
there on June 29 and 30 and July 1 sponsored by the American Peace
Crusade.
Did you go?
Mrs.' Hecht. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr. Sage confer with you about the matter?
Mrs. Hecht. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat part did the Communist Party play in
organizing the work of the American Peace Crusade in this area?
Mrs. Hecht. I refuse to answer, and claim the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Ai-e you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Hecht. I refuse to answer, and claim the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Air. Moulder. Mr. Scherer?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4827
Mr. ScfiERER. Yes.
It is the feeling: of the committee and its staff that if you would be
so inclined, that you can be very helpful to the committee and your
Government because we feel you possess valuable information concern-
ing Communist Party activities in the St. Louis area.
As I said to one of the witnesses yesterday, the law does provide
that this committee has the right, with the approval of the Federal
court, to grant you immunity from prosecution if you will testify.
\Miat is meant by that is this:
You have refused to answer all pertinent questions asked you by
Mr. Tavenner, claiming that to do so might subject you to criminal
prosecution. Now if that threat of criminal prosecution were removed
by this committee so that, no matter how you answered the questions
asked by this committee — -no matter what questions were asked you
by the committee — ^you could not suffer any incrimuiation, would
you then answer the questions?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hecht. The question is highly speculative as to what the
future may hold, and I don't feel that 1 can answer any questions.
Mr. vScHERER. It is no longer speculative. The Supreme Court,
just withm the last 30 days, has held that this law, passed by the 83d
Congress, is constitutional and proper and that this committee, with
the approval of a Federal court, does have the right, as I told you a few
minutes ago, to grant you immunity.
I understand the only reason that you are refusing to answer these
questions is that you fear you might be prosecuted as the result.
If we remove any prosecution will you answer the questions then?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Baris. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that this question relates
to matters of a legal nature.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Baris, we respectfully ask you to permit the
witness to respond to the question, as you understand the rules of the
committee.
Mr. Baris. I understand the rules, and I hope to abide by them as
best I can. I merely wanted to call the attention of the committee
to the fact that this is a matter seemingly of a legal nature and that
perhaps
Mr. Moulder. You have, of course, the right to advise yom' wit-
ness on that.
Mrs. Hecht. May I not ask my counsel to answer for me?
Mr. Moulder. No; you cannot testify through counsel or through
any other person.
(The witness confers with her coimsel.)
Mrs. Hecht. Well, I have been advised by counsel that the Im-
munity Act has not been construed to House committees, and it is
speculative as to what the committee or I may do m the future.
Mr. ScHERER. Of course, I disagree with your comisel's advice.
But let's assume that, that it does apply to congressional com-
mittees. And certaiiily the act does apply to congressional com-
mittees. It plainly states.
But let's assume that it does apply to congressional committees
and you were granted immunity. Then would you so answer?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. Wait a mmute.
4828 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mrs. Hecht. I am sorrj^. I thought the question was finished.
Mr. SCHERER. No.
All I wanted to know is that if you are eventually satisfied by your
counsel, if your counsel tells you that you can't possibly be prose-
cuted
At some future date if your counsel should say, "Now I am satisfied
that the law is such that you can't be prosecuted for answers that you
give to the committee if they grant you immunity," will you testify?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hecht. This is a hypothetical question, and I cannot answer
as to what I will do in the futiu-e, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. That is not a hypothetical question at all.
But nevertheless it indicates to the committee that you are not
invoking the fifth amendment in good faith.
Certainly if you say at this point that the only reason you are
refusing to answer the questions asked by our Government is fear of
prosecution, and when you are assured by your counsel in the future
that there could be no such prosecution if this committee granted
you immunity, then, if you are invoking the fifth amendment' in good
faith, you certainly should say to this committee, "Yes, I wiU answer
the questions."
So we can draw no other conclusion at this point than that you are
not invoking the fifth amendment in good faith.
You just don't want to cooperate with your Government under
any circumstances.
I have no further questions.
Mrs. Hecht. Was that a question, sir?
Mr. ScHERER. No; that was an observation.
Mr. Moulder. Very well, Mrs. Hecht, you are excused as a witness.
And I wish to compliment your counsel upon the manner in which
he has conducted himself and has made his appearance here as your
attorney.
Mr. Baris. Thank you, Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Scherer. I think we sliould make this observation, Mr. Chair-
man, that what we have experienced with this last witness does indi-
cate the fact that many witnesses who invoke tlie fifth amendment
certainly do not do so througli the fear of prosecution, but it is merely
a planned program of the Communist Party to not give congressional
committees any information concerning Communist activities, and
that there actually in most cases is no fear of prosecution, but it is a
means by which they hamper the work of this committee and use the
fifth amendment improperly in refusing to answer.
Mr. Baris. Was that matter directed at me or at m}^ client?
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. MoiTLDER. I think Mr. Baris was referring a whUe ago to the
decision of the coiu't when he said it was not applicable to this
committee.
Call the next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Brockman Schumacher.
Mv. Moulder. Mr. Schumacher, will you hold up your right hand
and be sworn.
Do 3'ou solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give
before the subcommittee ^^ ill be the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr. Schumacher. I do.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4829
TESTIMONY OF BROCKMAN SCHUMACHER, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ROBERT L. WITHERSPOON
Mr. Tavenner. Wlmt is your name, please?
Mr. Schumacher. Brockman Schumaclier.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel.
Would counsel please identify himself for the record?
Mr. WiTHERSPOON. My name is Robert L. Witherspoon, member
of the Missouri bar.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Schumacher?
Mr. Schumacher. August 26, 1924, St. Louis, Mo,
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the spelling, please, of both your
first and last names?
Mr. Schumacher. B-r-o-c-k-m-a-n, first name; S-c-h-u-m-a-c-h-e-r.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside, Mr. Schumacher?
Mr. Schumacher. 4006A Maffitt, M-a-f-f-i-t-t, St. Louis, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in St. Louis?
Mr. Schumacher. All my life, with the exception of the time I was
in the service or in school.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you in the military service?
Mr. Schumacher. From the summer of July 1942, to March of
1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been?
Mr. Schumacher. I attended grade school and high school in St.
Louis, Mo. I have a bachelor of arts from the University of Iowa,
and a master's degree from Washington University.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you receive your bachelor of arts degree?
Mr. Schumacher. 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you receive your master's degree?
Mr. Schumacher. 1952, the summer of 1952.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you in attendance at Washington
University?
Mr. Schumacher. I went part time. I can't give you an accurate
date. For about a year, the school year of 1951-1952.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
employment has been since 1948?
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer — ■ —
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. vScHUMACHER. I rcfusc to answer mider the fifth amendment;
I claim the privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you engaged m the teaching profession at
any time smce you have received your B. A. degree?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse for the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. I ask you direct the witness to answer the question
Mr Moulder. The witness is directed to answer And, as has
been stated to other witnesses, the direction is not given in the nature
of a threat but for the purpose of advising and informing you of the
possible dangers of being guilty of contempt for refusing to answer.
Mr. Schmacher. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. What employment did you have in 1954?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
81594— 56— pt. 2 5
4830 COIMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO,, AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Schumacher, did you at any time act as
chairman of the meetings of the Civil Rights Congress in St. Louis?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the head of the Civil Rights Congress in
St. Louis in 1954?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask do you kaow who was the leader of and
head of the Civil Rights Congress during tliat year?
Mr. Schmacher. I reassert the same privilege to the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether, to
your knowledge, the purpose of the Civil Rights Congress in St. Louis
was to tram recruits for the Communist Party?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether the
work of the Civil Rights Congi-ess was designed to educate its members
for admission to the Communist Party?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you interested, Mr. Schumacher, in the form-
ing of an organization designed to circulate propaganda regarding the
return of our soldiers from Korea in 1952 when this country was in
the middle of its fight in Korea?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you suggest to Mr. Cortor that he attend a
founding meeting of the Save Om- Sons Committee in Springfield, 111.,
in 1952?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend that meeting?
Mr. Schumacher. The same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Lou Kimmel was also sent
from St. Louis to Illinois to attend that founding meeting?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Ai'e you aware of the fact that he was selected as a
member of the continuation committee at that founding convention?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there any effort made in the area of St. Louis
to form chapters of that organization at any time between 1952 and
the present date?
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware of the trip of James Sage to the
Continent of Em-ope in 1950 to attend the peace conference at Warsaw?
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know Sage?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. Same answer.
Mr. Scherer. The fact is that you and he are very active in Com-
munist Party activities.
Mr. Schumacher. Are you asking me or telling me?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. That is a question.
Mr. Schumacher. I am sorry,
I reassert the same privilege.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner, Your name appeared in a notebook in the posses-
sion of James Sage on June 18, 1951, at the head of a group of people
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4831
who were apparently intending to go to Chicago to the convention
held there on June 29 and 30 of tliat year sponsored by the American
Peace Crusade.
Did Mr. Sage talk to you about that trip?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you go to Chicago?
Mr. Schumacher. The same answer.
Mr. Scherer. When did you get yoiu- master's degree from Wash-
ington University?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I answered that. 1952.
Mr. Scherer. I had forgotten.
Mr. Schumacher. Oh, I see.
Mr. Scherer. Was that the same year, 1952, that Sage got his
master's from Washington University?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I don't know.
Mr. Scherer. Did you know Sage at Washington University when
you were both there?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Scherer. Isn't it a fact that he and you started your Com-
munist Party activities while you were still in college, and contmued
them afterward? Isn't that a fact?
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. To what extent was the Communist Party active
in organizing this pilgrimage to Chicago m June of 1951?
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. We have heard testimony here that you were the
head of an organization Ivnown as the St. Louis Emergency Defense
Committee. Were you the head of that organization?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. There has been introduced in evidence, as Cortor
Exhibit No. 1, an issue of the St. Louis Defender, the masthead of
which says "The St. Louis Defender, issued by the St. Louis Emergency
Defense Committee, May 26, 1956."
Are 3^ou still the head of that organization?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you Cortor Exhibit No. 1 and ask you
whether or not you participated m the preparation of that document.
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.) uniTtni ovno«
(The witness confers with his counsel.) !•; - ; lodjo
Mr. Schumacher. Would you repeat the question, please? 'oda
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine Cortor Exhibit No. 1 and state
whether or not you participated in the preparation of that document?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I have examined it, and decline to answer on
the basis previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever see the contents of the document
before?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, if you know,
whether or not the Communist Party in St. Louis was instrumental
4832 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST, LOUIS, MO., AREA
in the formation of the organization of the Progressive Party in St.
Louis?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I have no idea who started the Progressive
Party in St. Louis.
Mr. ScHERER. Repeat your question.
Mr. Tavenner. My question was whether or not the Communist
Party in St. Louis was instrumental in the formation of the organ-
ization of the Progressive Party in St. Louis.
Mr. WiTHERSPOON. If he knew.
Mr. Tavenner. If you know.
Mr. Schumacher. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the Communist Party instrumental in the
organization of that party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. The same answer, the same as before — I don't
know.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you active in the Progi^essive Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I decline to answer that on the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. The next question would be, then, did you partici-
pate in the organization of the Progressive Party in the St. Louis area?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I wasn't born when the Progressive Party was
formed. It was formed by La Follette, wasn't it, in 1919 or some-
thing like that?
I think I told you I was born in 1924.
Mr. ScHERER. I am asking you about the St. Louis area.
Mr. Schumacher. I can't guarantee what happened to the La Toi-
lette party in the St. Louis area in 1919. I wasn't here.
Mr. Scherer. I am talking about when you were here.
Mr. Schumacher. When I was here.
Mr. Scherer. Have you had anything to do with the organization
of the Progressive Party in the St. Louis area?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. If the witness is confused about dates we may limit
it to the period from the time of 1948 on.
Mr. Schumacher. At least 1924. I was born then.
Mr. Tavenner. You know we are talking about 1948.
Mr. Schumacher. I decline to answer on the basis it might in-
criminate me.
Mr. Scherer. Isn't it a fact. Witness, that you as a member, an
active member of the Communist Party, participated with a number of
other intellectuals in this community to form the Progressive Party
about 1948 as a front for the Communist Party?
Mr. Schumacher. This is a question?
Mr. Scherer. Is that a fact?
Mr. Schumacher. You are asking a question now?
Mr. Scherer. Yes.
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer — same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of an organized group of the
Communist Party while in attendance at Washington University?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party
during the period of time that the St. Louis Emergency Defense Com-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4833
mittee was in existence, which I think began in 1952, and is still in
existence?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist
Party at any time I have not specifically inquired about?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Questions, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. Did you know Henry Holland?
Mr. Schumacher. I reassert the same privilege.
I recognized him when jou called him up here a few minutes ago.
I didn't recognize him. I mean I heard you call his name, and I
heard you give him testimony.
That doesn't mean the kind of knowledge you are talking about.
Mr. Frazier. What I meant is, did you know him before he testi-
fied here?
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Frazier. Were you at the University of Washington with him?
Mr. Schumacher. I never attended the Universit}- of Washington.
Mr. Frazier. I thought 3'ou got a degree from Washington?
Mr. Schumacher. Washington University in St. Louis, yes,
Mr. Frazier. Did you attend Washington University with him?
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask one question of you, Mr. Schumacher,
and that is this:
Do you know or do 3'ou feel that you are informed or advised as to
the true objectives or pm-poses of the Communist Party in the United
States?
(The witness confers \\ath his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. Repeat j-our question, please.
Mr. Moulder. Well, let's phrase it this way:
Have you formed an opinion as to the true objectives and purposes
of the Communist Party in the United States?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer that question,
Mr. Moulder. You have refused to answer the question as to
whether or not you are now or ever have been a member of the Com-
munist Party.
I will ask you this question, as to vvhether or not you believe in
and are the follower of the Communist Party philosophy and its
objectives in the United States.
Mr. Schumacher. You asked me a question about my beliefs.
Is that it?
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Schumacher. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Moulder. Any other questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Schumacher, you are excused as a witness,
and, likewise, may we compliment your coimsel for tlie manner in
4834 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
which he has presented and conducted himself as your attorney in an
able manner while before the committee. Thank you very much.
You may claim your witness fees with the clerk of the committee.
Mr. Schumacher. Is that for both days I had to be here?
Mr. Moulder. Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Thomas Younglove.
Mr. Moulder. Would you hold up your right hand and be sworn,
please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about
to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Younglove. I do.
Mr. Moulder, Will you be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS A. YOUNGLOVE
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sh?
Mr. Younglove. Thomas A. Younglove.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Younglove, you have been in the hearing
room, have you not, and heard the explanations that I made to other
witnesses regarding their right to counsel?
Mr. Younglove. I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Younglove?
Mr. Younglove. October 30, 1904, on the Ouachita south of
Kappahoe, 7 miles south of Cloud Chief, geographically located now
and known as the great State of Oklahoma.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you reside, Mr. Younglove?
Mr. Younglove. Jefferson County and St. Louis County.
' Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation?
Air. Younglove. I am a contractor of concrete work, in business
for myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Younglove, have you at any time been a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. Yes; I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you join the Communist Party at the sug-
gestion of the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Mr. Younglove. I offered my services to the Bureau before I
became a member of the Communist Party or the Communist Political
Association, which it was at the time I first got acquainted with it.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you continue in working for the
Federal Bm-eau of Investigation in the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. Until the summer of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been.
Mr. Younglove. Equivalent to a high school education by doing
homework with my children during the time they were going to school.
Mr. Tavenner. Now will you tell the committee, please, the cir-
cumstances under which you offered your services to the Federal
Biu"eau of Investigation.
Mr. Younglove. I was contacted in my home by a man who lived
in my neighborhood at that time, who had the reputation of being a
member of the Communist Party. He came to my home. He en-
couraged me to take the names of nine of my neighbors which appeared
on a card that he gave me, including my name, which made the tenth
COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4835
one, and asked me to support our President Roosevelt in the next
election, which was a few weeks following this, this being in the fall of
1944.
Knowing the man as I did, and really did, and not as I thought I
understood him, I told him that I was not interested. And he told
me, "You being a CIO member and a good trade unionist, you
couldn't possibly support the Republican Party."
I told him I didn't care who he was.
"Tomorrow morning I may be sorry, but now I am telling you, to
me there isn't but one man and that is Browder."
Mr. Tavenner. This mdividual said that to you?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That was James Ted Moore saying this to me.
Mr. Taven^^er. James Ted Moore?
Mr. YouNGLovE. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Very w^ell.
Mr. Younglove. He came in without me opening the door any
farther.
He told me he was a member of the Communist Party. He enjoyed
hearing me say the things I did.
He encouraged me to take some of the material that he had and
read, one being the Daily Worker.
I also gave him — rather, I took a 3-month, I believe it possibly
could have been a 6-month subscription to the Daily Worker.
That night, within the hour after he left, I wrote a letter to the Bu-
reau here in St. Louis, and offered my services. . .
Mr. Tavenner. As a result of that what occurred?
Mr. Younglove. I attended some of the Communist Political
Association meetings. I was visited at my home by members of the
Communist Political Association.
After thi'owing them curve balls for a number of weeks, perhaps
months, I signed an application at their request, and became a member
of the South Side Club.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall at this time who it was that solicited
your membership?
Mr. Younglove. The first being James Ted Aloore, and a few
days, perhaps maybe a week following that, I was visited at my home
by Carolj^n MacLeod and Marie Schmidt.
Mr. Moulder. I didn't understand the first name.
Mr. Younglove. Carolyn AlacLeod.
Mr. Tavenner. As a result of that you became a member of the
Communist Political Association.
Mr. Younglove. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you fill out a card at that time?
Air. Younglove. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. ^Miich entitled you to membership in the CPA?
Mr. Younglove. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned at that time to any particular
group of the Communist Political Association?
Mr. Younglove. Yes. I was assigned to the South Side Club.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it a small or a large group of members?
Air. Younglove. Approximately 40 members. Possibly at times
it could have been 60.
Air. Tavenner. Later I will probably ask you to give us the names
of the persons you can now recall who were members of that group.
4836 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Wliat was the date that you became a member of the CPA, the
Communist PoHtical Association?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. It was in the year of 1945. I beheve it was
March.
Now I could be wrong. It could have been February. I hardly
think it was as late as April.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the Communist Party sometime later recon-
stituted and the Communist Political Association abandoned or
abolished?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you continue on in your membership? That
is, did 3^ou become a member of the Communist Party proper as dis-
tinguished from the Communist Political Association?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. TMiat changes were there, if any, in the work of
these two groups? That is, the Communist Political Association
and the Communist Party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I noticed a great many changes during the time
that I was a member of the Communist Political Association.
Meetings were open; records were kept; they referred to members
as brothers and sisters; an active part was taken on the part of the
chairman and the members in civic and patriotic affairs.
But after the reconvened convention in New York City when
Browder was removed by the forceful article which called it to their
attention by Jacques Duclos from France they went back to the
Communist Party.
Meetings became closed, security measures were taken. The
membership cards at a later date were discontinued. The many
clubs in which they once operated were disbanded. They set up our
country in geographical locations and districts and sections, I
understand Missouri to be district 21.
Schools were established. Security measures were taken at all
meetings that I attended.
Mr. Tavenner. You say that schools were established. Did you
attend any of the schools?
Mr, Younglove, I attended two schools and many educational
classes.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the first school that you attended?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. The first school I attended was held in the 2800
block of Gravois.
Mr. Tavenner. In what year?
Mr. Younglove. The winter of 1945 and 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of that school?
Mr. Younglove. Teaching of Marxism-Leninism. It was school-
room fashion: assignments were given; homework, study periods.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall any of the particular subjects or
books which were studied?
Mr. Younglove. Many books were issued for us to read. I don't
recall all of the books that were used in the teachings. However, I
do recall History of the Soviet Union being one that was particularly
used.
I recall this book clearly because I was instructed to buy this book
from the Euclid Avenue bookstore, and a person behind the counter
who sold me the book was at that time the State, one of the State or-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST, LOUIS, MO., AREA 4837
ganizcrs of the Communist Party or tiie CJommunist Political Associa-
tion, which it was at that time, by tlie name of Helen Musiel,
Mr. Tavenner. Helen Musiel?
Mr. YouN'GLovE. Musiel.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell the last name?
Mr. Younglove. M-u-s-i-e-1, I believe, is the correct spelling.
Other books were used: State and Revohition; History of tlie Com-
mimist Part}''; Communist ^lanifcsto; and Foundations of Leninism.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall at this time the names of those who
participated in the teaching at that school?
Mr. Younglove. Yes. We had several instructors, one being Olive
HefFner, Naomi Ring — —
Mr. Tavenner. JDid you say Heffner?
Mr. Younglove. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. H-e-f-f-n-e-r?
Mr. Younglove. That is correct.
Naomi Ring, a student at one of the universities at that time by
the name of Melvin Ring— —
Mr. AIouLDicR. It has been the policy of the committee as far as
possible, when mentioning naiues to ask if you could give specific
information, according to your knowledge. This might distinguish
persons named from any otiier persons having the same name or
similar names.
Mr. Younglove. I understand, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You say this person l)y the name of Melvin Ring
was a student at that time at Washington University?
Mr. Younglove. No; I didn't sav Washington. 1 said it was one
of the universities.
Mr. Tavenner. Do 3^ou know which university?
Mr. Younglove. Yes; I do. The St. Louis University. A student
in dentistry
Naomi Ring, his wife, was also an instructor.
I learned that they were from Brooklyn, N. Y., and they have since
returned.
Mr. Tavenner. To New York?
Mr. Younglove. To Brooidyn, N. Y.
Mr. Tavenner. As to this person by the name of Olive Heffner,
do you have fm'ther identifying information relating to her?
Mr. Younglove. She is the wife of Roger Heffner.
We had another instructor at this school, an attorney practicing
law in St. Louis by the name of Douglas MacLeod.
Mr. Tavenner. Douglas MacLeod?
Mr. Younglove. There may have been others who taught for a
short time, recalling one by the name of Ruth Paige. And I believe
that Doug's wife Carohai taught part time.
Mr. Tavenner. That is the same person who sought you out before
you became a member of the Communist Political Association?
Mr. Younglove. That is correct.
Air. Moulder. Is she the wife of Douglas MacLeod?
Mr. Younglove. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You spoke of Ruth Paige.
Mr. Scherer. Did you see Douglas MacLeod in the courtroom
this morning?
Mr. Younglove. I did see him.
81594 — 56 — pt. 2 6
4838 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. He is not here now.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I don't see him. I have my back to most of
them.
Mr. Tavenner. You spoke of Kuth Paige. How do you spell the
name Paige?
Mr. Younglove. I understood it to be spelled P-a-i-g-e.
Mr. Tavenner. Can jou give any further identifying mformation.
relating to her, either as to her occupation or place of residence or
anythmg that might prevent our becoming confused with maybe
another person of that name or similar name?
Mr. Younglove. I understood this lady to be a social worker at
one tune. She is a Xegro woman, apparently well learned or educated.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that her maiden name or her married name?
Mr. Younglove. That was her married name.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where she is now?
Mr. Younglove. I learned that she is in Africa. I don't know how
truthful the source of the information is.
Mr. Tavenner. Are there any other intructors that you can now
recall?
Mr. Younglove. I don't recall any other instructors at this first
school, that is, as it was set up as a school. But in some of the de-
briefing sessions, or, rather, briefing sessions that we went through,
and educational classes, there were others that I have not mentioned.
Mr. Tavenner. Was this a Communist Party school?
Mr. Younglove. It was.
Mr. Tavenner. Were the instructors members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Younglove. Yes, sir, they were.
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Younglove. Have I any information about that?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Younglove. ^^Tien I say "Yes," I mean all of them, witli the
exception of the one that I am giving and explaining about being
Mr. Tavenner. Wait just a moment.
Have you named that person?
Mr. Younglove. I have named that person.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well.
Mr. Younglove. Being a former dues secretary for the South Side
section, and issuing dues and membership cards to the ones that I
have mentioned, and the one perhaps I will later mention with the
exception of one — I am askuig for an explanation, and that is the
lawyer, Douglas MacLeod.
The explanation is this: I never issued him a membership card.
However, I noticed him to be in arrears with his dues in my dues
book. And I asked Carolyn for his dues, v.nd she told me not to bother
with Doug, that he had been transferred to the professional group.
But he did attend school. He taught. And it was behmd doors
that were closed and locked, and the only ones attending the school
were party members.
Mr. Tavenner. Were all of the students who attended this school,
members of the Communist Party or were some of them nonmembers?
Mr. Younglove. That was not permitted — to have a nonmember
in a Communist school.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4839
Mr. Tavenner. Did that apply to this particular school?
Mr. YouNGLOvE. It did.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of some of those who
attended this school as students along with you?
Mr. Younglove. Paul Krooks, at that time being a student at the
St. Louis Universit}^, was
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell his last name?
Mr. Younglove. K-r-o-o-k-s, recruited by Melvin Ring, was a
student.
Olive and Roger Heifner were students.
Mr. Tavenner. Olive and who?
Mr. Younglove. Roger Heffncr, being man and wife.
Bruce and I^aura Miller, man and wife.
Joe Kozak, part time.
Mr. Tavenner. Joe Kozak. Will you stop there a moment.
Can you give us an 3' further identification regarding Joe Kozak?
Mr. Younglove. I know him to be seemingly a well learned man.
He indicated in the course of conversation that he was able to speak
four languages. He has been credited with, from party sources of
information, that he was successfid in bringing about
Mr. Tavenner. You are telling us now something that somebody
else told you? I mean is that, what you were about to say?
Mr. Yot^nglove. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. I would rather for you not to state that.
Mr. Younglove. I am sorry.
I learned that
Mr. MoT'LDER. Was he present at the time?
Mr. Younglove. Was he present at the time of the incident which
I am going to speak about?
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
Mr. Younglove. No. I was not either. Tliis occm-red at the
First National Bank.
Mr. Moulder. I mean, what you heard from some other person.
Was he present when the conversation was being had?
Mr. Younglove. I don't recall whether he was or not.
We had another student there from time to time by the name of
Louis K. England.
James Ted Moore and his wife Agnes Moore on occasion due to her
employment being in the nighttime.
I believe Andrew Buckich did drop in from time to time.
Harold Edsell, James Cooper, Eula Mae Pearson.
Mr. Moulder. As we go along, if you can, give a descriptive
reference, some distinguishing identification, as you have in the other
individuals named, if it is possible for you to do so.
Mr. Tavenner. We are speaking now of those who were students
at the first school that you attended?
Mr. Younglove. Now, if I understand you right, students in the
school or students in some of our public learning places, our
universities?
Mr. Tavenner. No. Maybe you misunderstood my question.
I intended that .your answer here relate to those who attended this
special school that j^ou had spoken of where you had named the
instructors. If any of these persons you have referred to attended
4840 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
courses of instruction that were different from this school I would
want to make that plain.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. The ones I have named were in attendance at this
school from time to time. Not in every class.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall a person by the name of Harold
Hall?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes, I do, and his wife Annabelle.
Mr. Tavenner. Did they attend this school?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. They did.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any occasion at a later date to know
of the activities of Harold Hall in the Communist Party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes. I have talked to him several times in and
around party functionary meetings, and also at my club headquarters.
Harold Hall is or was very active. He was considered a cadre.
Mr. Tavenner. A what?
Mr. Younglove. A cadre, which is much higher than a party-level
membership.
Mind you, in the party he was not a party functionary.
He is employed, or, rather, was employed by the Terminal Railroad
Association here in St. Louis.
Mr. Tavenner. If there are others you can now recall who attended
this first school I would lilce to have their names.
Mr. Younglove. The school lasted for many many weeks, with
some coming in and taking instructions in the earlier part, and some
throughout the lime the school was held. I don't recall them all at
this time. Ho\vever, I do recall some being present who sat in from
time to time.
Vera Scrotto and Russell Scrotto —
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the last name.
Air. Younglove. S-c-r-o-t-t-o. And Roy Scrotto.
Sam Chinicci, who operates a service station.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell tliat name.
Mr. Younglove. C-h-i-n-i-c-c-i.
And I believe John PavHch — John Pavlich may have attended 1 or
2, possibly 3 instruction periods or classes.
Mr. Tavenner. WiU you spell his name.
Mr. Younglove. P-a-v-1-i-c-h, I believe, is the correct spelling.
Mr. Tavenner, You said you believed that he did.
Let me ask j^ou this question :
Other than the possibility of his having attended this school, did
you of yom- own knowledge know him to be a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Younglove. To my knowledge, I did. I have issued him
membership cards.
Air. Tavenner. So that, whether your recollection is correct or
not as to liis attendance at this school, you know that he was a mem-
ber of the Comm.unist Part}''? You know that?
Mr. Younglove. Just as sm-e as I know that there is not a second
Tuesday in this week.
Air. Tavenner. Are there others, whose names you can now recall,
who attended that school?
Mr. Younglove. The school itself — I don't recall others attend-
ing. However, I believe I know
COJVCMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4841
Mr. Tavenner. Do not state what you believe about it, please. If
your recollection is not definite as to others attending, just say so and
that would end it.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I don't recall others attending the school as de-
lined as a school at this time.
Mr. Tavenner. You said that you were dues secretary. Over what
period of time were you dues secretary of the Communist Party?
Mr. Moulder. Ai-e you i-eferring now to tiie South Side Club?
Mr. YouNGLovE. Yes, sh.
I don't recall the exact time or the length of time, but it was in the
period of 1945, 1946, possibly 1947. I don't recall the exact date on
which I became the dues secretary or when I gave my dues book over
to the one who succeeded me as secretary, which was Lam'a Miller.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the name of the person you suc-
ceeded in that capacity?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That was Marie Schmidt, as well as I recall it.
She was dues secretary. I believe State secretary at one time, and
may have been at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. What were yom- duties as dues secretary?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Collect dues from the members, assist in collect-
ing sustainer fees imposed upon the members, funds that were
solicited.
Mr. Moulder. Wliat were the dues?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Dues depending upon the amount of money
earned or the pay the member received.
Mr. Moulder. From his employment?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. From liis employment.
Mr. Moulder. What percentage was that?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. 1 never understood it to be based on percentage.
It was based on his weekly income. I don't recall what my dues were.
I believe it was $2 per month. However, some paid more, others
paid less. The unemploj^ed, I believe, paid 10 cents.
The sustainer fee imposed upon the members also was in relation
with his income. I was imposed 1 mean I was denianded to pay
$50 for the fees.
Mr. Moulder. I didn't hear that.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I had a $50 bill imposed upon me, sustainer fee,
by the section, section-level heads. Mr. ^MacLeod.
He pledged through his wife, they pledged $100.
Other demands were in relation to their income.
Mr. Tavenner. What did you call that assessment?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Sustainer fee.
Mr. Tavenner. I thought you used the word ''defense."
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Well, I did use the word "defense," and I will
defend it.
Of course, I am going to have to testifj^ as to what I believe from
the chcmnstances.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean as to the use of the mone}^?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. The use of the money.
It was in defense oi the Communist Party and to fm-ther their
educational means.
Mr. Tavenner. That is quite all right.
Mr. Younglove. Thank aou.
4842 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
May I recall at this time — and add, too — some of my instructors
at this school?
Mr. Tavenner. I was just going to ask you that question. I wish
you would proceed to tell us as to the nature of the instruction.
Mr. YouNGLovE. I recall one other instructor at the school — I
recall at this time Marcella Oser, the wife of Nathan Oser.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell the last name?
Mr. YouNGLOvE. 0-s-e-r.
It was Marcella Oser who contacted me and gave me the invitation
or the request to come into this training.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the basis of your selection? What was
the reason for your selection to this particular school?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. She told me that I was not selected on just
jfitness and ability of being able to learn and reteach; that I was just
a grand fellow or had some personal charm — I was selected on the
basis of security.
She told me that I was not a member of the American Legion or the
Veterans of Foreign Wars or the Catholic church. Had I been I
would still have been on the outer edge of the Communist Party. I
would never have gotten to its inner circle.
Mr. Tavenner. She advised you of that?
Mr. Younglove. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. I have not asked you any question about the nature
of the instruction given at this school other than to ask the names of
the books that you studied.
Is there anything that you can tell us about the type of instruction
received in addition to what appeared in the books?
Mr. Younglove. Yes; I can. And this instruction or these com-
ments were made by one of our instructors in the course of his instruc-
tion and teachings — Douglas MacLeod, being the man who was teach-
ing at this particular time.
He said socialism would never come about by the use of a ballot box.
We would have to use violent force and action.
Mr. Tavenner. He made that statement before this class?
Mr. Younglove. He did.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not functionaries from
a higher level of the Communist Party appeared at this school?
Mr. Younglove. I don't recall them appearing as a teacher or
instructor.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there anything you can tell us about other
instructions you received at this school?
Mr. Younglove. I recall one of the instructors by the name of
Naomi Ring, during her com-se of teaching a particular class, askmg
the class how they thought socialism would come about. And she
received an answer from one of the students that they thought it would
come about by a powerful consolidation of organized labor led by the
Communist Party.
Her answer to that was:
"Just don't kid yourselves. It will never come about that way.
The stronger the power that labor has the more the capitalistic sj'stem
will organize to defeat it."
And she hesitated for a moment, and she said:
"President Truman will drop the atomic bomb on the workers of
this country to save capitalism."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4843
That was soon after Hiroshima and Nagasaki received it.
Mr. Tavenner. ^Vhat was the general purpose of this school?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. The general purpose was to educate the members
in Marxism-Leninism, and remove the revisionist theory or thoughts
that Browder had left with the membership during the revisionist
period for approximately the last 2 A'ears in which he headed the
Communist Political Association. To reeducate.
Mr. Tavenner. And indoctrinate?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You said that you attended a second school.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that school held?
Mr. Younglove. The summer of 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere was it held?
Mr. Younglove. It was held at 1041 A North Grand, party head-
quarters.
Mr. Tavenner. In Communist Party headquarters?
Mr. Younglove. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it a day or night school?
Mr. Younglove. Well, it was in the daytime. Perhaps there may
have been some instruction given in the nighttime.
It was under the supervision and direction of Bob Manewitz who
was at that time the State educational director of the Communist
Party in Missouri. He had a number of instructors aiding him.
It was also schoolroom fashion with the aid of blackboards and a
fairly well stocked library of Communist books such as I have men-
tioned before.
We were given an outline. We were given home study. We were
given assignments.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the general purpose of this school?
Mr. Younglove. To teach the members the condition that must
come about for a successful revolution in our country.
Mr. Tavenner. Did that school have a name?
Mr. Younglove. Yes. It was named and called the Basic Training
Institute.
Mr. Tavenner. A Communist Party school?
Mr. Younglove. Ob, yes, definitely so.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of the instructors in
that school?
Mr. Younglove. Marcella Oser, Al Murphy, Haven Perkins, Clara
Mae Perkins, and there were others I don't recall at this time.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether Helen Musiel was connected
with that school?
Mr. Younglove. She was connected with it, but I don't recall in
just what capacity. She may have taught at one time.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of any of the students
you can now recall who attended that school.
Mr. Younglove. The first one that comes to my mind this time is
Mr. Joe Schoemehl.
Mr. Moulder. You refer to students. You mean the names of
Communists who attended the school? Communist students who
attended this school?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
4844 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Schoemehl was one of those who testified for the Government
in the Smith Act case ; was he not?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Tliat is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. And, according to his testimony in that case, he,
like yourself, had been working in the Communist Party for the
Federal Bm'eau of Investigation?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes. I recall him being the one who registered
the members attending that school.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time that you were working for the Federal
Bureau of Investigation in the Communist Party, did you know that
Mr. Schoemehl was also doing the same thing?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I did not.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first learn it?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I learned it by reading it in the paper. And that
must have been at the trial that was held here in Judge Harper's
court.
Mr. Tavenner. In 1954?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I believe that would be the date.
Mr. Tavenner. And he was one of those who attended this school.
Air. YouNGLOVE. I believe Paul Forrester was also one tliat
attended.
Mr. Tavenner. You said you believed that he attended. Let me
ask you this as a preliminary question :
Do you know whether Paul Forrester was a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I did not issue him a card, but I know him to be
at meetings where members of the Communist Party only were per-
mitted. I know he v/as referred to as comi-ade.
Mr. Moulder. At such meetings?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. At such meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. You say you believe he attended. By that, is
there some uncertainty in your mind as to whether he did?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes; and the ex]3lanation for that uncertainty is
this, that the time spent by me in and around party headquarters —
This was not the only affair that was being conducted at State head-
quarters. There was other gatherings and meetings also conducted
there in which I was present, party structure meetings, party func-
tionary meetings, organizational meetings. And it could be possible
that I have got him placed in the school when he should be placed out
of the school, the same as Romey Hudson, Richard Stanford or Ann
Yasgur or Johnny Rossen. I have seen them all there.
Mr. Tavenner. You have not mentioned any of those persons yet.
wSo, since you have mentioned them, let us be certain about whether
or not you are identifying them as members of the Communist Party.
Will you give us those names again, you have just mentioned,
please?
You said Rossen?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Johnny Rossen and Louise Rossen, his wife.
Mr. Tavenner. Were they members of the Communist Party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. To my knowledge, they were.
So was Bill Massingale a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. Upon what do you base your reasoning and your
opinion?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. The reason is based on this, that they were re-
ferred to as comrades bv the chairman of tlie meetings, and by party
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4845
members tliat I know to be party members, and being doors that were
locked where members of the Communist Party only were permitted.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you mentioned 1 or 2 other names.
Mr. YouNGLOvE. The former educational director of the Com-
munist Party; Ann Yasgur Kling, I believe, is her married name at
this time.
And a girl that was active in tlie youth movement, Dottie Aukamp.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that Dorothy Aukamp?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. It is Dorothy. And I'm sorry I called her
Dottie. I called her Dottie for so long.
Mr. Tavenner. ^^^hat was her married name? Do you know?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Aukamp?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Seem like I learned it to be Sage. I could be
wrong. I could be just as wrong as wrong could be.
Mr. Tavenner. There has been other evidence here in this hearing
that her married name was Sago, that she was the wife of James Sage.
Mr. Moulder. I would suggest, if you could find a logical place to
stop, it is 12:15.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well, sir.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:15 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., this
same day, there being present at the time of taking the recess Repre-
sentatives Moulder and Frazier.)
AFTERNOON SESSION, TUESDAY, JUNE 5, 1956
(The subcommittee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess,
at 2 p. m., there bemg present at the time of reconvening Representa-
tives Frazier and Scherer.)
Mr. Frazier (presiding). Mr. Tavenner, you will proceed with the
witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. ChaLrman, may I have a moment.
Counsel was consulting with me. Excuse me just a minute.
Mr. Frazier. Take your time.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS A. YOUNGLOVE— Resumed
Mr. Tavenner. Before the afternoon recess, Mr. Younglove, you
gave us the name of one person who attended this Basic Training
Institute in addition to yourself, and that was Mr. Joseph Schoemehl.
Were there others whose names you can now recall?
Mr. Younglove. I recall a party bj^ the name of Morgan. I don't
recall her first name.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you, was this school confined to mem-
bers of the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. Yes; it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Do 3-ou at this time recall the name of any other
person?
Mr. Younglove. I believe — I am reasonably sure that Paul
Forrester was a student at this school, part tune.
Mr. Tavenner. But you cannot be definite about it. Is that it?
Mr. Younglove. No; I am not definite.
4846 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
There were many party members who were in and around party
headquarters at that time, who came m and out, some of whom went
to the offices within the party headquarters, perhaps for business.
Mr. Tavenner. Was this individual, Paul Forrester, known to
you to be a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. So, whether he attended this school or not, you
know of your o^vn knowledge that he was a member of the Com-
m.unist Party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. On what do you base your statement that he was
a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. By the very fact that he got through the door
would indicate that he was a member of the party where there was a
school being conducted at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; but there was some doubt in your mind as to
whether he attended this particular school, and that is the reason 1
ask that question ; as to whether or not you had any information re-
garding his membership in the Comnuuiist Party other than being in
this school.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I am not sure that he was a student at this school
at this time. I can't place him; I can't see him. I am taking myself
back some, almost 10 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know, independently of this school,
whether or not he was a member of the Communist Part}^?
Mr. Younglove. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you know that?
Mr. Younglove. By him being referred to as comrade by party
members, known to me as party members, and by seeing him in the
party meetings where only Communists attended.
Mr. Tavenner. That is Communist Party meetings other than
this school?
Mr. Younglove. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend every lecture in this school or
every session of it?
Mr. Younglove. No, I did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it possible that there were persons who lectured
at this school and who acted as instructors whose names you have not
given us?
Mr. Younglove. That is possible.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend any other school of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Younglove. That was — those two that I have mentioned are
the only schools that I have attended organized in schoolroom fashion
with the aid of a blackboard and with instructors. However, I did
attend a great number of educational classes.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere were those educational classes held?
Mr. Younglove. Some were held at party headquarters, and in
my own headquarters when I was chaiinian of my club, and at the
home of party members.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that the South Side Club of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Younglove. South Side Club. And I recall one being held
at tlie Jeffla Hall.
COMIVrUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST, LOUIS, MO., AREA 4847
Mr. Tavenner. What was the purpose of tliis type of training that
you have just spoken of?
Mr. YouNGLOvE. Indoctrinate the members' mmds, sabotage the
minfls, and unite those sabotaged mmds into one, and order them
back into the jobs and professions they came from, fixing ill will and
distrust between the rich and the poor, between management and
labor, between the student and his teaclier. And our training was to
support and create any and all kinds of revolution against the social
and political order of things.
Mr. ScHERER. AATien you say any and all kinds of revolution, was
tliis one of the schools where they actually taught the mechanics of
sabotage?
Mr. YouxGLOVE. That is correct.
One of my instructors, by the name of Marcella Oser, stated m class
that a condition for a successful revolution was a condition that must
exist, when organized labor M'as organized and led by the vanguard of
the w^orking people, and tiie masses were politically trained to follow.
And, with a complete unification J)etween the standing Army of our
coimtry and the Communist Party, it would never be necessary for
tliem to take a defensive stand for the defensive stand is the death of
all armed uprisings, and we should strike at the most vulnerable
spots when enemies least expect us to seize power, when its forces are
scattered.
The instructor was Marcella Oser. The place was 1041 North
Grand, State headquarters, and the time was a period durmg the time
of tlie Basic Training Institute.
Mr. SciiERER. Of course, we do know from evidence that they did
succeed in infiltrating effectively the xirmed Forces of this country.
Mr. Tavenner. You have described for us certain changes in the
organization at the time that the Communist Political Association
was abandoned and the Comnnmist Party was reconstituted. About
that time or shortly following the time of the reconstruction of the
Communist Pa.rty, do you recall whether or not very definite plans
were put in wi'iting by the Communist Party of IMissouri as to the
form which their organization, the new organization in the Com-
munist Party should take?
Mr. Younglove. I recall a number of pieces of material and printed
matter that they passed out and distributed. I don't recall any
particular one at this time.
Mr. Tavenner. I call your attention to a document entitled
"Proposed Plan for Missouri State Party Building Conference, March
2, 3, 1946." 1 hand it to you and ask whether or not you can identify
tliat as a copy of one of the plans to which you refer.
(Docuro.ent handed to the witness.)
^Ir. Younglove. Yes; it is. And I recall seeing the original of
this somewhere.
?vlr. Tavenner. Didn't you identify that document as a witness
in the trial of the first Smith Act case before Judge Harold R. Medina
in the city of New York?
Mr. Younglove. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman. I would like to read this document
into the record of this proceeding.
Mr. Frazier. You may do so.
Mr. Tavenner (reading):
4848 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Proposed Plan for Missouri State Party Buildino Conference, March
2, 3, 1946
The economic and political necessity as well as possibility to build a mass
Communist Party is clearly indicated by the objective and subjective factors now
developing in our country. These are, in the main:
j\Iillions of Americans are completely disillusioned with the way the American
people have been cheated from sharing the fruits of anti-Fascist victor3^ Prom-
ises of good jobs, homes and happiness made during the war have turned into
bleak insecurity. Ask any worker, any GT —
"Our country is in a mess. Truman and Congress have botched up the job at
home and abroad. The rich moguls have cornered all the wealth and don't care
to run their plants imless juicy profits will continue as they did during the war.
The working people are in for a hard time, unless they fight for their rights."
This is the general opinion.
The recent strike strugsles and the greatest solidarity between the Negro and
white, between the workers and veterans shows that the masses are not only
disillusioned but are also ready to unite and fight the monopolists.
However, the American working class is not receiving the type of leadership
nor the kind of ansv ers which would win decisive victories. For example: the
worker who receiv^es his 18-cent increase knows that this has already been eaten
up by the rising cost of li-'ing. He still feels insecure and perplexed by growing
problems hi this postwar world. He knows that shuffling oi wages and prices is
no answer. He wants answers that will do away with fear of rmemployment, do
away with hand-to-moiith budgeting and worries. But such answers are not and
cannot be given by trade unions. They are not given by the capitalist class and
their agents in the Government. The only organization that can give these
answers to the workers is the Communist Party. The Communists are the only
ones who have the correct Marxist answers to the shifting wages, prices, and
profits under capitalist economy.
The Communists are the only ones who can give a full program for the advance-
ment, consolidation, and outlook of the trade-union movement and mass organiza-
tions of the working class. Reformist and social democratic leaders only confuse
the trade-union workers and make their organizations ineffective, thus spreading
a feeling of futility among the proletariat. The Communist Party is the only
organization which has a program of struggle for the Negro people, for all minori-
ties. The Communists are the only ones who have an answer to the threatening
farm crisis and catastro])hic collapse of agricultural economy. As a matter of
fact, American imperialism is in such a state, is bent on such hellish ventures at
home and abroad that no nth or organization but the Communist Party can
properly deal with and combat its destructive aims.
But to do this job there must be more Communists. The present strength of
the party cannot reach nor answer all these problems. We must extend party
organization in every important sphere, bu.t primarily among the decisive sections
of the working class. That is why Comrade Foster so sharply emphasized the
need of building the party, because "history will not take no for an answer."
Then a heading:
Our task from March 1 to June 1.
The National Committee has set a goal of 20,000 new members to be recruited
during this period. Of these, they propose that our State organization recruit a
minimum of 250. How shall we approach the party building at this time?
We must strengthen the weakest mass link by means of concentration.
In this campaign the aim of every comrade must be to recruit onlj^ those who
will be active, who will contribute to achieve the following qualitative and quanti-
tative improvement of our party organization.
First: Decisive improvement in the present shop organizations, and in building
of new shop branches and clubs.
Second: Qualitative improvement in the existing neighborhood clubs and
organization of series of new clubs in the important political and industrial
sections.
Third: Decisive improvement with mass organizations of the working class,
trade unions, NAACP, language organizations, etc.
The minimum requirements for fulfilling concentration tasks:
It is proposed that the minimum number of recruits shall come from the follow-
ing industries:
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4849
Now before I read the rest of this document rehiting to various
industries I want to stop and ask you if you recall or kiiow just how
this document was prepared.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I learned it was prepared after a conference held
by party leaders. I do not know where it was prepared.
Mr. Tavexner. Do j^ou recognize this as a document that was
circulated at your clubs?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I do.
Mr. Tavexner. Now, continuing to read the document, under the
heading of minimum number of recruits from the following mdustries,
I read as follows:
AFL — 25, Electrical — 25, Shoe — 25 (including AFL shoe workers).
Packing — 25, including KC.
What does KC refer to?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. It refers to the area of Kansas City.
Mr. Tavexxer (reading):
Auto — 15, including KC.
Railroad — 15, including KC. Outstate — 25.
What does outstate mean?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Outstate means that the local industries or,
rather, industries outstate other than the heavy industries as con-
centrated in heavier populated areas, there would be concentration
made on outstate or scattered manufacturing plants.
Mr. Tavenner (reading):
Youth and vets — 25.
Negro workers and professionals — 100 as a generally minimum figure.
It is proposed that new branches and clubs shall be organized in the following
places :
5 additional shop branches, at least 1 of these in KC;
County clubs in Overland, Kinloch and Kirkwood
Mr. Scherer. Did you say Kirkwood?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Does that mean Kirkwood, Mo.?
Mr. Tavenner. Will 3'ou explain generally where the counties of
Overland, Kinloch, and Kirkwood are located.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. They are located in St. Louis County.
Mr. Tavenner (reading):
Five ward clubs in St. Louis. Neighborhood clubs in Kansas City. Professional,
at least one.
And the next heading is:
Organizational responsibilities:
Although the State chairman and secretary are mainly responsible for the re-
cruiting drive in the State, every State committee member will be responsible
for one or another of the concentration points during this drive.
Following are some of the proposed assignments: Electrical — Dottie —
The name Dottie appears. I believe you used the name Dottie
in the earlier part of yom- testimony.
Mr. YoUxVGLove. Yes. And I recall that it was Dottie Aukamp
who had that assignment.
Mr. Tavenner. Whose present name is Sage?
Mr. Younglove. I was wrong before. So I wait until you say it,
because I could be wrong again. However, after hearing j^ou say it,
it is Dottie Aukamp Sage.
4850 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
I recall Zollie having an assignment there, too.
Mr. Tavenner. Wait until I come to that.
Mr. YouNGLOvE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. The next names appearing under that heading
of "Electrical" are Zollie and Bill.
Who was Zollie, if you know?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Zollie Carpenter.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know to whom Bill referred?
Mr. Younglove. No. There was a good many Bills. It could
have been Bill Massingale
Mr. Tavenner. Don't say if you don't know.
Mr. Younglove. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. (Continuing to read:)
Shoe — Ray and Harry.
Do you know to whom those names apply?
Mr. Younglove. Yes; I believe I do.
Wlien I was the secretary to the trade-union group in my section
the shoe group was assigned to me, and that was Harry Mertz. I
believe it is spelled M-e-r-t-z. And Ray, I believe — I could be wrong
now
Mr. Tavenner. I suggest if you are not definite and certain, that
you not speculate about it.
Mr. Younglove. I don't know the Ray referred to at that time
who that Ray was referred to at that tim.e.
Mr. Tavenner (reading):
Youth — Ray and Sue.
"" Do you have any recollection at this time as to the persons meant
by the names Ray and Sue?
Mr. Younglove. I knew a Ray Wolverson who worked in youth.
And I recall a Sue.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean worked in the Communist Party in the
youth work?
Mr. Younglove. That is what I mean.
Mr. Tavenner. "Packing — Joe, Helen and KC."
Can you at this time identify the persons mentioned here as Joe
or Helen?
Mr. Younglove. I can connect Helen with the packing group for
she worked at the Hile Packing Co. at one time. This Helen I am
referring to is Helen Musiel, one of the State officers of the Communist
Party at one time.
Mr. Tavenner. Continuing to read from the document, there is a
heading "Some Club assignments: H. Tubman responsible for the 18
and 19th Wards, Packing."
Were you personally acquainted with H. Tubman?
Mr. Younglove. Apparently that is referring to the Harriet
Tubman Club. I know very little about that club.
Air. Tavenner. Do I understand that is the name of a club rather
than an individual — H. Tubman?
Mr. Younglove. That is right, the name of a club.
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder entered the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Tavenner. So that club then was responsible for the 18th and
19th wards?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4851
Mr. YouNGLovE. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. According to this document.
Roosevelt — 16th Ward — shoe.
That meant that that chib was responsil)lc for that particular area?
Mr. YouNGLOvE. That was my club and my area.
Mr. Tavenner. "Tom Paine — Auto."
Does that mean that there was a Tom Paine Club of the Communist
Party that was charged with the assignment of doing this recruiting
work in auto?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. "Douglass — steel — Carr Square."
Was there a club known as the Douglass Club?
Mr. YouNGLOvE. I understood there to be a club by that name,
Mr. Tavenner. The next heading:
How Shall We Recruit?
1st — First of all, your own contacts in shops, neighborhood, and organizations.
2 — Arrange for ho\ise meetings, clnb meetings, socials, etc.
3 — Utilization of literature and folders that is being prepared by the national
office, and any additional material that the local organization may get out during
the drive, including the St. Louis Worker.
The State Board shall make available to branches and individual comrades all
the leading personnel to speak to groups, to be at various house meetings, parties,
and gatherings, to assist in the recruiting.
The Board shall also make available a list of desirable contacts, readers of DW —
What do the initials "DW" refer to?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. The Daily Worker.
Mr. Tavenner (reading) :
Steps are already underway for organization of a school for all new recruits in
St. Louis to begin March 20th. Similar steps should be taken in KC.
Individual pledges and responsibilities in all clubs and branches arc a very
important part of the whole campaign. The need for a day-to-day and week-to-
week checkup on all assignments and pledges will be the only guarantee of a suc-
cessful recruiting drive.
In order to keep the whole membership informed on the week-to-week accom-
plishments in the drive, a bulletin will be issued twice a month and mailed to all
members.
Was the policy set forth in this proposed plan carried out?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Attempts were made, to my knowledge, of carry-
ing it out. I don't recall how successful or if they were successful
at all in some of their undertakings.
I do know I had assignments that were given to me by order. One
of those was to turn in to the party headquarters the names and
addresses of all shop stewards, business representatives of all locals
that I knew of, and especially my own local, which at that time was
the Gas, Coke, and Chemical Workers Union.
Mr. ScHERER. Your own local, did you say?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. My own local at that time. I belonged to the
Gas, Coke and Chemical Workers Union.
Mr. ScHERER. There was an attempt to infiltrate your own local
then?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That is correct.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, may I make an observation at this
point.
This witness has given us some valuable testimony, but the most
significant part of his testimony is that which he gave a few minutes
4852 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
ago when he said that this Communist school taught the mechanics
of sabotage.
Now the Marxist study groups, the distribution of literature, the
distribution of the Daily Worker, the net and final result of all these
activities, I think, is eventually sabotage and espionage. And that
is the reason I say that that is the part of his testimony that is so
vital.
Mr. Counsel, you remember the testimony of Joseph Klein taken
in Kansas City in 1954 in connection with the Albany hearings.
Klein was an active Communist Party functionary. He wasn't in
the party at the request of the FBI. But he finally broke with the
party. And his testimony was that as a Communist Party function-
ary first, and second as a union organizer he was sent to the General
Electric plant at Schenectady to infiltrate the union there just as this
witness said his chemical union was to be infiltrated.
Klein was asked why the Communist Party wanted to infiltrate
that union, and he plainly said that in case of war with Russia, if we
were an ally then, production would be more easily accelerated, and,
if an enemy, then sabotage could be so much more easily accomplished.
Now is Klein's testimony given before this committee consistent
with what you learned from your experience in the Communist Party
as to the final objective of the party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Exactly.
And m.ay I continue, Mr. Counsel?
Mr. Tavenner. I don't know whether Mr. Scherer proposes to
ask you further questions or not.
Mr. Scherer. Do you mean you want to continue to answer the
observation that I made?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Go ahead.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I was told by one of the State officers of the
Communist Party that my name would never be revealed as a party
member. I was urged to keep my membership secret in the Com-
mmiist Party for I was m a vital industry.
And I was further told, on the same occasion, that the membership
list of the Commmiist Party was not kept at headquarters, but it
was kept at a safe distance.
At a later date I was assigned to drive a man whom I had never
met before in my life. He was from New York City. He carried a
press card in his pocket from the Daily Worker. He operated under
the name of Wlih'lwmd Larson. And on the second day of driving
this man through many, many parts of the city, and visiting many
addresses, of which he had the list, he told me I was the most valuable
comrade in this part of the country.
With the knowledge that I had of the explosives that I would use
in the course of my work, and that at that time being in the natural-gas
distribution system, employed by the Laclede Gas Light Co., the
industry and the distribution system that supplied all of the heavy
industry and most all of the light industry here, that I could blow it
up out of the ground and keep it blown out.
Mr. Scherer. Wasn't it said often that in a city the size of St.
Louis that all you need were about 15 trained comrades in espionage
to make ineffective a city such as St. Louis, that is, conu-ades properly
placed in communications and utilities?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4853
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That was not said by Whirlwind. That was
said — almost the exact words, only the number was less — by the State
chairman, Ralph Shaw.
Mr. ScHERER. He said that you didn't need that many?
Mr. YouNGLovE. Not that many.
Mr. ScHERER. To disrupt a city the size of St. Louis?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That is correct.
Mr. ScHERER. How many did he say you would need?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. About 5 or 6 well, highly trained, highly dis-
ciplined core party personnel.
Mr. ScHERER. Placed where? Utilities?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Utilities, transportation, distribution, and water-
works.
Mr. ScHERER. I only ask these questions, Mr. Chairman, to point
out the fact that there are so many people who sa};^, "Why do you
worry when they distribute literature? Why do you worry when
they conduct Marxist study groups, et cetera, et cetera?"
I merely say that because the net and final result of those activities
of the Communist Party — although many people who participate in
them do not realize it — the net and final residt is sabotage and espio-
nage when the time comes.
Is that a correct statement?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Did a time come in your Communist Party
experience when you were asked not to attend meetings of the Com-
munist Party, and to remain underground?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you given any advice as to whether or not
you should be active yom'self in trying to organize others into the
Communist Party in this critical industry that you were in?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I was told not to pass out leaflets or to expose
myself in any way. The leaflets and the organizational work would
be done by others. But should I learn or hear of someone who indi-
cated that they were in favor of socialism or communism, to turn that
name and address in to the party headquarters, and they would be
contacted.
Mr. Tavenner. And what was the reason for all that secm-ity
being tlu'own around you?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. To keep me for further or for future use should
they ever call upon me or need me for this destructive job that Whui-
wind Larson indicated that I would be so valuable to the party for.
And I was told by one of the press directors: Should I be picked up
by the FBI and questioned if I belonged to the Communist Party, tell
them yes immediately, but also, if you could, tell them in the same
breath that you didn't believe in its teachings.
Mr. ScHERER. From your experience in the Communist Party, did
you learn that this pattern that you are relating to us today, particu-
larly in reference to infiltration, espionage and sabotage, is the same
pattern that the Communist Party used in taking over the countries
behind the Iron Curtain — that had been so taken since 1933?
Mr. Younglove. I didn't learn how they accomplished that. But
I did learn that one of the main, true aims and purposes of the Com-
munist Party is to establish beachheads in our country by the control
of organized labor.
4854 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
And in our discussion groups for infiltration and organization work
it was stated many times tbey would prefer to have the leadership
of an organization in a trade-union group than the rank-and-file
members.
Mr. Tavenner. You referred to a person by the name of Shaw.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes. He was a member of my club, and h e also
was the State chairman. And Ralph Shaw would come to our meetings
and our club meetings and speak to us quite often. I recall one—
I recall one meeting at the Jeffla Hall, and Ralph S^^aw spoke.
And during the course of his talk — and tliis was with the doors closed
and locked — he said he had just returned from an out-State meeting
and tour which he had made, and he had visited some comrades out-
State who had guns and ammunition, and he had seen these guns and
this ammunition.
And they are men who are ex-GI's and "raring to go," and they
need a leader.
He further stated that the way the rotten old politicians are carry-
ing on in this country that war may come about at any time. And,
should it come about between this country and Russia, we must be
prepared to do all we could to sabotage the war effort. We must be
prepared to go under2;round.
He stated that: "We will throw the cargo off the ships. We will
stab every bloody Yank in the back, and we will tear down the Stars
and Stripes wherever it is at."
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, that is virtually the same testimony
that we heard from Philadelphia as to the instructions that were given
there, as to what should be done in the event of war between the
United States and the Soviet Union.
Mr. ScHERER. And yet we are abusing people's civil rights when
we uncover these things.
Mr. Tavenner. What did you understand from your experience
in the Communist Party, was its purpose in organizing these cells in
the automotive branch of industry here, in the railroads, in numerous
electrical concerns in industry? What was the piu-pose of the Com-
munist Party in doing that work?
Mr. YouNrTLOVE. The pm-pose of it was to have men in a position
who could sabotage, by strike or otherwise, to stop production of ma-
terials that our country would need so badly in case of defense. And
the national officer of the railroad workers of the Communist Party
stated, before a select group at State headquarters — and this man's
name was Otto W. Wangerin. He was from Chicago. I can spell it,
but I don't know if it would be correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Do jou know what position he held in the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. He was introduced by a man by the name of
Herman Webb as being a national organizer for the Communist
Party within the railroad workers. He also referred to that position
in the course of his talk.
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment.
Mr. Chairman, we have made a great deal of inquiry about the
formation of tlie railroad commission of the Communist Party,
Very little information has been obtained about it.
Do I understand that you mean that the individual you mentioned
was a member of the railroad commission of the Communist Party?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO,, AREA 4855
Mr. YouNGLOVE. He wasn't introduced as such.
Mr. Tavenner. How was he mtroduced to you?
Mr. YoUiVGLOVE. He was introduced as the head of the Raih'oad
Workers Unit of the Communist Party, and this being at a Com-
munist gathering and all people present are Communists.
Mr. Tavenner. Did that mean that he was a member of this
railroad group or unit of the Communist Party on what level?
Mr. Younglove. National level.
Mr. Tavexntner. National level.
It would seem that that must mean the railroad commission of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Younglove. He came to — I hate to mention that commission
with this person.
Mr. Tavenner. The name may not have been used, but it may
have meant the same thing.
WUl you proceed?
Mr. Younglove. He urged those to do all in their power to organize
and infiltrate into the railroad workers, organize them into the party.
And he stated, and he quoted that we could never, ever, hope to have
a successful revolution unless we had the railroad workers with us
because that was the lifeline of the capitalistic system that must be
stopped.
Mr. Tavenner. This plan, which I read into evidence a few
moments ago, referred to the railroad group, and that plan anticipated
that there would be 25 persons recruited, or that should be recruited
at that time.
Do you know whether the Communist Party met with any success
in recruiting railroad workers?
Mr. Younglove. I don't know how successful they were.^fii'ijiij!;:;
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of any individuals who were re-
cruited from the raUroad group?
Mr. Younglove. I know of one. I don't recall if he was recruited
that time or if he was employed. I believe he was employed at
that time, that being Harold Hall, employed by the Terminal Railroad
Association.
Mr. Tavenner. You have not been in the Communist Party now
for some years, but have you had occasion to know as of a recent date,
what position, if any, Harold Hall holds in the Communist Party of
St. Louis now?
Mr. Younglove. I have no way of knowmg that.
Mr. Scherer. Was he still a member at the time the Government
took you out of the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. The Government didn't take me out.
Mr. Scherer. I understand you were an undercover agent for the
Federal Bureau of Investigation; were you not?
Mr. Younglove. That is right.
I probably misunderstood you. I am sorry.
Mr. Scherer. It resulted from the Government's action
Mr. Younglove. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. In asking you to testify. Your identity was re-
vealed. When was that?
Mr. Younglove. The summer of 1949.
I learned through some printed matter that was distributed that
I was an undesirable in the Communist Party, and I was expelled.
4856 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. Was Hall a member of the Communist Party at the
time you left the party, then?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Just prior to my testimony in New York City I
knew him to be a party member, knew of him to be a party member.
Mr. ScHERER. It has been largely as a result of the activity and
efforts by fine Americans like yomself that the things they advocated
did not come about to a greater degree in this country.
You constantly made reports to the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
did jou not, while you were in the party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I made them as often as necessary for me to
make them.
Mr. ScHERER. They weren't so successful over in Czechoslovakia.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. May I comment on your observation?
Cardinal Mitidszenty had a trial that lasted 40 minutes. The
Communists in this country had trials that lasted for 40 months.
Air. ScHERER. A good observation.
Cardinal Mindszenty couldn't use the fifth amendment either.
Mr. Tavenner. In the course of yom* testimony you have given
us the names of a number of persons who were active in one capacity
or another in the Communist Party. We would like to have at this
time the names of any other persons you can recall, giving as adequate
a description of them as you can and as much of an account as you
can of then- activities in the Communist Party. In doing so try to
refrain from mentioning again the persons whose names you have
ah-eady mentioned. I know that would be a difficult thing because
we have talked about people in particular categories.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I am taking my thinking back to my first experi-
ence inside of a Communist gathering, known to me to be a Communist
gathering — by invitation — and that being the Tom Paine Club.
And there I met Sam Manewitz.
Mr. Tavenner. Sam Manewitz?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. The father of Bob Manewitz.
I also met his wife; Sam and his wife I have seen at meetings tliat
indicated to me that all were Communists.
Air. Tavenner. Do you recall his wife's name?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I believe it to be Esther. I could be wrong.
Air. Tavenner. Would the name Fanny mean anything to you?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That does register, and I believe that is right.
That is Sam Alanewitz' wife, and Esther would be the daughter, I
believe, and the sister of Bob.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether there is a deportation
proceeding now against Sam Manewitz and Fanny Manewitz?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I do not know. I wouldn't know.
In my club I recall the shoe group, the cell in the shoe industry:
Cleo Wliitaker, Tom Grimm and, I believe, a Bob Hogan, or Logan it
could be.
Air. Tavenner. What was that last name?
Air. YouNGLOVE. Logan or Hogan. I believe it is Hogan, Bob
Hogan.
Mr. Tavenner. You said "I believe." Is there some uncertainty
in your mind about that?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes, there is, and I will tell you why. There are
intermarriages there, and I am trying to get
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment before you explain that.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4857
Do you know, from information not connected with the Shoe Branch
of the Communist Party, that this individual was a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. YouNGLOvE. Oh, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Then I think it is perfectly proper for you to give
us yom* best opinion about his bemg a member of this particular club
inasmuch as you know he was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That was the shoe workers' unit within the
South Side section and which I was chairman of for som.e time, later
being assigned to the Sacco-Vanzetti Club out on Italian Hill.
The daughter of this person Bob Hogan married one of the men in
the unit out at General Motors by the name of Marcelle Smith, who
was a party member and in my section and in my club and which I
collected dues from.
Also the man who was my instructor in m.aterialism.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the spelluig of his last name?
Mr. YouNGLOvE. Smith, S-m-i-t-h.
Mr. ScHERER. I am sorry I did not understand.
You say j^our instructor in what?
Mr. YouNGLOvE. Dialectical materialism.
This was the man who gave me my debriefing. He taught there
is no God, and man has no soul, and religion is just an illusion, that
our ministers and our priests are the tools of capitalism that were
operatmg under political and religious illusions. The chm'ches are
the implements by which the capitalistic system uses to ease the pains
as morphine administered by the doctor would ease the pain.
Mr. Tavenner. That was the Communist view taught you?
Mr. YouNGLovE. That was taught to me by a member of the
Communist Party in one of these educational classes apart and aside
from the schooling.
Mr. ScHERER. They also taught, did they not, that the greatest
obstacles to the spread of communism in the world are the established
religions, that they must be destroyed before communism could be
really successful?
Mr. YouNGLovE. That must be according to their interpretations
and their teachings.
We had further teaching on that, that when the time comes for the
revolution that it will be necessary to open up the penitentiaries and
jails. That was for two purposes, we were told: One, that, by treating
the prisoners with a little kindness, that they would do the job the
Communists wanted them to do; and, second, they would have a
place behind bars that was open to put the military commands, the
law-enforcement officers, our ministers, and our priests.
Air. ScHERER. Did they leave out the congressional investigators?
Mr. Tavenner. Now can you recall the names of other persons
who were active in the Communist Part}^?
(There was no response.)
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you about the names of several people.
I am not certain whether you have mentioned them or not.
Have you mentioned the name of Joseph Kozak?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes; I mentioned him as being a student at one
of the first schools I attended.
Mr. Scherer. Who was that?
Mr. Tavenner. Joseph Kozak, K-o-z-a-k.
4858 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. You say a student at the first school. You mean a
student at one of the first Communist schools?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. James Umstead. Were you acquainted with him?
Mr. YouNGLovE. Yes. I met him on a number of occasions in and
around party headquarters.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell liis name?
Mr. YouNGLovE. It is U-m-s-t-e-a-d.
Mr. Tavenner. What did you say about him?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I had met him in and around party headquarters,
at party functionary meetings, and recall him being one of the delegates
to the State convention which I attended.
Mr. Tavenner. Have vou mentioned a person bv the name of
Harold Edsell?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I don't know if I have or not. If I didn't I had
him in mind for he was at one time the literature director for the South
Side Section.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe at an earlier point in your testimony you
mentioned the name of Andrew Buckich. How do you speU Buckich?
Mr. Younglove. B-u-c-k-i-c-h.
Mr. Tavenner. Am I correct in saying you did mention him?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I believe you are.
Mr. Tavenner. Whether you did or not, was he known to you to
be a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. Yes. I had issued him dues, a mmiber of occa-
sions. And collected his money. Also with him and his, I suppose,
close friend or comrade was others by the name of Anton Perez
Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to state where you saw him, but
was he known to you to be a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. Were j'ou acquamted with Al Friedman?
Mr. Younglove. Yes. I laiew Al Friedman very well. He was
head of the machinist unit in the Communist Party, and I laiew his
dues secretary, which was Marie Cuttier, and which I would pick up
the dues from, being dues secretary of the section.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the name? Marie?
Mr. Younglove. Cuttier.
Mr. Tavenner. Spell the last name.
Mr. Younglove. C-u-t-t-i-e-r.
Mr. Tavenner. Friedman is F-r-i-e-d-m-a-n?
Mr. Younglove. Yes. He is very active in the machinist unit of
the Commmiist Party. As I recall, there were nine employed in the
machinist industry, and tool and die makers, that were members of
the Communist Party that I collected dues from.
I recall Joe Fite, Anna Fite, James Ted Moore, Al Friedman, and
there were others I don't recall theh names.
Mr. Tavenner. I recall that you mentioned the name of Romey
Hudson, but I do not recall m just what particular you mentioned the
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4859
name. Was he known to you to be a member of the Commmiist
Party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. On what do you base your statement?
Mr. YouNGLOvE. By seeing him in party meetings where no others
other than party members attended.
Mr. Tavenner. I beheve that you referred in yom- earHer testimony
to a person by the name of Pasche, but I do not recall the fii-st name.
Am I correct that you did refer to such a person?
Mr. Younglove. I don't remember, but Pasche, as I recall him,
was a member of the machinist union.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is his first name?
Mr. Younglove. Vic. I know him as Vic.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell his name?
Mr. Younglove. I believe it is P-a-s-c-h-e.
Mr. Tavenner. You say he was a member of the machinist union.
Do vou know whether or not he was a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Younglove. I do know him to be a member of the Communist
Party, and I was also told that he was a member of the machinist
union.
Mr. Tavenner. But you know of your own knowledge that he was
a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. That I do.
Mr. Tavenner. On what do you base your statement?
Mr. Younglove. Seeing him at party meetings, referred to as
conn-ade.
I don't recall giving him a dues card.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Hershel Walker?
Mr. Younglove. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Hershel Walker known to you to be a member
of the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell the committee anything about his
activities in the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. He was a member. And, as far as I knew at
the time I loiew him, he carried out the assignments that were given
him. I have seen him on a number of occasions at the CIO Council.
Mr. Moulder. You refer to the CIO Council.
Mr. Younglove. Yes. That is, the CIO Coimcil is where the
delegates of the many CIO unions met.
He was carrying out the orders that I received to attend the CIO
Council.
Mr. Moulder. From the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. Merely seeing him there by itself would be no
proof.
Mr. Younglove. No. I am sorry.
4860 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO,, AREA
I don't want it to be an indication with anyone, that being a CIO
member means that they are Communists.
Mr. Moulder. That is my point.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. That is not true in any of our trade unions.
Our trade imions are not going to the Communist Party, but com-
mmiism was trying to go to the imions.
Mr. Moulder. They, in turn, have tried to rid themselves of
Communist Party members, and have done a diligent job, and I
think liave been very alert to it at all times.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. The schools are not going into the Communist
Party, but communism is trying to gam positions in our schools ta
destroy, disturb, and poison. Our ministers — the Communists would
have us believe, through their rumors, part of their underground
tactics, subversion by mdirection through snide remarks and by
rumor, destructive rumor and damaging — that our ministers are
gouig into the Commimist Party.
Tliere has never been a case where the ministry has ever went to the
Communist Party that I know of. It is a case where communism
went to the ministry to be in a position to confuse.
Mr. Moulder. My point was: the rank and file, as well as the
general labor leadership, are anxious to rid themselves of Communist
Party members and their influence. In fact, I have heard labor
leaders here who have expressed an appreciative attitude for the
hearings that are being conducted and for the reason that it will
enable them to take action to help expel and rid their organizations
further of this Communist influence.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. It is as a result of such testimony as yours that they
will be able to do so.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. I was caUed to a trade-union trial where iU
Friedman was tried before his labor union, and I testified what I knew
about Al Friedman.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Younglove, you spoke of the CIO
Council. During what period of time did you attend meetings of the
CIO Council in St. Louis?
Mr. Younglove. I believe it to be at the time I was a delegate
for my union, and that was probably in the middle 1940's.
Mr. Tavenner. About how man}' people constituted the council in
this area at that time?
Mr. Younglove. Many hundred.
Mr. Tavenner. Did I understand you to say you were directed by
the Communist Party to attend the meetings of the CIO Council?
Mr. Younglove. I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend as a delegate?
Mr. Younglove. I attended as a delegate from my union, and also'
I attended, under then- directions, meetings before I was a delegate
and after I was a delegate.
Mr. Tavenner. At the direction of the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4861
Mr. Tavenner. What was the piu-pose of the Communist Party
in endeavoring to get representation on the CIO Council?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. The same as it was in any trade-union movement,
to seek control of the council and direct its policies.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you learn, during the period of time that you
were acting in behalf of the Communist Party in attending these
council meetings, as to how many persons there were members of the
Communist Party and acting under the same directions that you
were acting under?
Air. YouNGLOVE. I was told by Bill Sentner, who was present one
night prior to the meeting, our instructions were not to sit together.
The Communists would not sit close to one another.
There were 14 party members who were delegates to the CIO
Council.
Mr. Tavenner. That demonstrates the eflort that the Communist
Party made at that time.
Mr. Moulder. They had been successful to that extent in electing
14.
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. Did the general membership or the members of
the union have any knowledge or information at the time of their
election that they were members of the Communist Party?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Not at the time. But the experience that I had
with my man that I worked with — he told me of my affiliations with
the Communist Party, and under no circumstances would I be per-
mitted to remain a member of my union if I continued my member-
ship in the Communist Party.
Mr. Moitlder. That is my point, Mr. Younglove, that generally
when seeking such an office in any organized labor union they never
reveal thch identity as being a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Younglove. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. They always conceal then* affiliations with the
party, and are elected under false colors without revealing that infor-
mation or letting it be known to the general rank and file or the
general membership of the union.
Is that so?
Mr. Younglove. That is coiTect. They conceal their party
membership.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with a person by the name
of Saddle Berger?
Mr. Younglove. Yes. I met SadeUe on a few occasions, and I
understood her to be a secretary at the time I was of the West End
Club.
The Sadelle Berger you are referring to, the one I have in mind, is
the wife of the attorney Sidney Berger. And I was told she was a
secretary of the West End Club at the time I was dues secretary to
the South Side section. I had met her a few times at party head-
quarters and party functionary meetings. The name registers.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet her under circumstances that would
indicate her membership in the Communist Party?
Mr. Younglove. Definitely so.
4862 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Were j^ou aware of the existence of a professional
group of the Communist Party in St. Louis?
Mr. YouNGLOVE. Yes, I knew such a group existed.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever attend one of its meetings?
Mr. Younglove. Oh, no. I was assigned to labor.
Mr. Tavenner. Therefore, ai'e you unable to state anything with
regard to the membership of the professional group?
Mr. Younglove. I can restate what I have stated or testified to
earlier, that I was told
Mr. Tavenner. Don't state what you were told.
Mr. ScHERER. WeU, Mr. Counsel, as long as what he was told
doesn't involve the identification of anj?' individuals I don't see why
we can't have that testimony.
We are not bound by the rules of evidence.
I would agree that if what he was told would involve the identifi-
cation of some individual as a member of the Commmiist Party, then
he should not testify to it. But if he was told something about the
organizational activities and plans of the professional group, then I
think we have a right to hear that.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I thought my question related to the
members of the professional club. If he intended to answer something*
other than the identification of individuals that would be within yom'
ruling.
Mr. Scherer. Did 3'ou intend to tell us something about the
organization of the group, or did you intend to tell us something
about personnel in the gToup?
Mr. Younglove. Personnel.
Mr. Scherer. The identification?
Mr. Younglove. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Tavenner is right then.
Mr. Tavenner. I don't think he ought to speak on that.
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. Tavenner. I think that is all I desne to ask the witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. Just one observation.
Earlier today Air. Tavenner mentioned the testimony of Captain
Nicolai Khokhlov, former officer in the Russian Intelligence, who
defected to the West in 1954 and who testified before this committee
that only 2 percent of the Russian people were members of the
Communist Party.
That testimony, together with the testimony of Mr, Younglove,
the present witness, is a complete answer to those who charge that the
committee is exaggerating the Communist menace because there are so
few Communists in this country.
I think the testimony of Khokhlov and the testimony of this witness
completely refute that charge.
Of course, there is an abundance of other testimony available. I
merely mention it because we have this witness here and we have
had reference earlier today to the testimony of Captain Khokhlov.
Numbers mean very little.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4863
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Yoimglove, during the 8 j'^ears I have con-
tinuously served on this committee I have never heard testimony
that was more impressive — and, I think, more straightforward and
more honest and dependable than yours.
I am sure I express the feelings of this entire committee when I
say, as chairman of the subcommittee, we are deeply grateful to you,
and I am sure the American people and the people of the city of St.
Louis are also grateful and deeply appreciate the information and
knowledge which you have given to this committee as well as to the
public concerning Communist activities m this area and the dangers
that will result therefrom.
I reiterate our deep gratitude and our commendation to you for
your corn-age and the sacrifice you have made for the American people
and our Government of the United States.
Mr. ScHERER. I certainly concur in your sentiments, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Frazier. We all do.
Mr. Moulder. Thank you very much, Mr. Younglove.
The committee will stand in recess for a period of 5 minutes.
Pardon me, Mr. Younglove, did you have something to say?
Mr. Younglove. Would it be in order if I say to the committee I
am very gi-ateful for this time that has been given me to come to
yom- committee, and if I have testified poorly or spoken poorly it is
because you gentlemen have listened so well.
I feel like I am picldng up where those boj^s left off over in Korea
who are not coming back.
I do not wish to collect my witness fee.
The best of success, and good luck, and lot-« of it to all of you,
especially on cooperation of the witnesses.
Mr. Moulder. Thank you, Mr. Younglove.
The committee will stand in recess for a period of 5 minutes.
(Wliereupon, a short recess w^as taken, there being present at the
time of the recess Representatives Moulder, Frazier, and Scherer.)
(The subcommittee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess,
there being present Representatives Moulder and Scherer.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee v/ill be in order.
Call your next witness, please, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Orville Leach.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please,
^Ir. Leach.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before the committee ^^nill be the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Leach. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF ORVILLE LEACH, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
IRL B. BARIS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Leach. Orville Leach.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify hunself for the record.
Mr. Baris. My name is Irl B. Baris. For the record again, I spell
my first name I-r-1, last name B-a-r-i-s. Attorney at St. Louis with
offices in the Arcade Buildmg.
4864 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Leach?
Mr. Leach. In Missouri; 1906.
Mr. Tavenner. Where?
Mr. Leach. In Missouri.
Mr. Tavenner. Where in Missouri?
Mr. Leach. Ellsinore, E-1-l-s-i-n-o-r-e.
Mr. Tavenner. Try to speak a httle louder, if you please.
Do you now reside in St. Louis?
Mr. Leach. In St. Louis County.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in St. Louis County?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. Approximately.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not interested in knowing right to the exact
day. Just in a general way.
Mr. Leach. About 20 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been.
Mr. Leach. Well, rm-al school and 1 year of high.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your present employment?
Mr. Leach. What is the question?
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is yom* present employment?
Mr. Leach. I am a machinist.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a machinist?
Mr. Leach. Well, I wouldn't just exactly know. A number of
years.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed as a machinist
m your present employment?
Mr. Leach. A little over 2 years.
Mr. Tavenner. By whom are you emplo3^ed?
Mr. Leach. American Car Foundry.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed prior to 2 years ago?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Leach. I have to decline to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. You don't have to decline.
Mr. Leach. On the basis of possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you decline on that basis?
Mr. Leach. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the City Labor
Council in the city of St. Louis within the past 6 months?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Leach. I will have to assert the privilege reason.
Mr. Tavenner. You certainly do not have to do it. The question
is do you?
Mr. Leach. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. You do?
Mr. Leach. I do, yes.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, do you honestl}" contend that to tell us
whether or not you are a member of the City Labor Council in
St. Louis would tend to or might tend to incriminate you?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Leach. WiU 3^ou restate that question, please?
Mr. Scherer. You refused to answer Mr. Tavenner's question as
to whether or not you were a member of the City Labor Council of
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4865
the City of St. Louis. Therefore, in compliance with the Supreme
Court decisions, I ask you whether or not you honestly contend,
honestly believe that to answer that question might tend to incrimi-
nate 3^ou.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. Don't you think that is a reflection on the City
Labor Council to say that to answer about your membership in that
council might incriminate you?
Mr. Leach. I feel that I am justified in asserting my previous
reason.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask you a question, then?
Pardon me for interrupting, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Proceed.
Mr. Moulder. What is that? What is the City Labor Council of
St. Louis? What is its function and what is it composed of?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Leach. I will assert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask, Mr. Chairman, that you dhect the witness
to answer the question asked .by Mr. Tavenner; whether he is or is
not a member of the city labor council.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed.
And the reason for your direction is to call it to your attention that
we do not accept yoiu* reply, and for the additional reason to advise
and inform you that it might endanger you to be in a position of being
in contempt.
Therefore, you are directed to answer.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Leach. I assert the previous reason.
Mr. Scherer. Now, Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the wit-
ness to answer the question as to what is the City Labor Council of
the City of St. Louis. Certainly, to tell us what it is couldn't possibly
incriminate him.
Mr. Moulder. You are so directed.
I say you are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Leach. I assert the previous reason.
Mr. Moulder. Any additional questions, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. You understand, Witness, that the question was:
What is the council? What is its organizational setup? That is all
that was asked. We didn't even ask whether you were a member or
not.
Do you understand the question?
Mr. Moulder. The question now pending is: Do you understand
that question. Surely you can answer that.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Leach. Actually, Mr. Chairman, I don't know of any labor
council by the name of "City Labor Council."
Mr. Tavenner. What is the correct name of the labor orjganization
to which delegates are sent from the various labor unions in the city
of St. Louis?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
(There was no response.)
4866 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. You say it is not the correct name. Give us the
correct name, please.
I don't see how in the world you can use that much time to answer
a question as simple as that.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Leach. See I don't know of any labor council by the name of
"City Labor Council."
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of any group
Mr. Leach. I don't see how I can answer on a thing like that.
Mr. Tavenner. Then let me ask you to give us the correct name
of any representative group of labor there is that meets in the city
of St. Louis composed of representatives of labor unions.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. The witness is quibbling now. Instead of City
Labor Council it might be Labor City Council or St. Louis Labor
Council. Or Joint Council.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Leach. I am sorry, but I believe I have to refuse. I am going
to refuse on the basis previously stated.
!■ Mr. ScHERER. Now, Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the wit-
ness to answer that question. Certainly we do not accept his answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Leach. I assert the previous answer.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated that you were employed by American
Car & Foundry. In order to be an employee at that industrial plant
is it necessary to be a member of the union?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I believe this witness is deliber-
ately trying to delay this proceeding.
Mr. ScHERER. Yes, I think the record should show that on each
question he has conferred an unreasonable length of time.
Mr. Tavenner. I have measured it by the clock, and on several
occasions it's been between 2 and 3 mmutes to answer the most simple
question which he could have answered immediately, even by the
use of the fifth amendment, if he desired.
Mr. Moulder. Let's proceed as rapidly as possible. I hope the
witness will cooperate.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please?
Mr. Leach. The question is what?
Mr. Tavenner. Have you forgotten it?
Mr. Leach. What is the question?
Mr. Tavenner. The question was whether or not to be an em-
ployee at the American Car & Foundiy it is necessary to be a member
of a labor union. "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Leach. I assert the previous reason.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Is not the American Car & Foundry organized by
a steelworkers' union? Won't you answer that yes or no?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4867
Mr, Leach. I am going to assert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavexner. Have you made up your mind you will not answer
any question this committee propounded to you?
Did you come here with that determination?
Mr. Leach. I have answered some questions.
Mr. Tavekner. Are you one of those who attended the meeting
several days ago to determine whether or not witnesses would answer
questions proposed by this committee?
Mr. Leach. I assert the previous reason.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that j^ou direct the witness to answer that
question.
► You can't possibly incriminate yom-self by attending a meeting to
discuss how you are going to testify unless you agreed to lie.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is dhected to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. You have here a clear example of what I said before,
of abuse.
Mr. Leach. I assert my previous reason.
Mr. Moulder. You do what?
Mr. Leach. I assert the previous answer.
Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, Mr. Leach, weren't you a
delegate from the steelworkers' local, of which you are a member, to a
labor council in the city of St. Louis within the past 6 or 8 months?
Mr. Leach. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of possible
self-incrmiination.
Mr. Tavenner. Weren't your
Mr. Scherer. Just a moment.
How could a witness possibly incruninate hunself if he was a delegate
to what is apparently a fine, good, honorable organization such as the
Labor Council of the City of St. Louis?
It may be the Joint Labor Council. We may not have the exact
name. But everybody in this room knows what we are talking about.
And certainly a delegate to the council should know.
There is clearly an improper invocation of the fifth amendment, and
I ask that you direct the witness to answer because I feel that this
witness is in contempt of this committee, in contempt of the Congress,
for taking the position he has on these questions.
(Representative James B. Frazier, Jr., entered the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed to answer.
Mr. Leach. I assert the previous answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Weren't your credentials refused at that meeting,
and weren't you denied the right to attend, to sit as a delegate?
Mr. Leach. I assert the previous reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist
Party at any time within the past year?
Mr. Leach, I assert the previous reason.
Mr. Moulder. Did I understand, Mr. Tavenner, that the Labor
Council refused to seat him as a delegate?
4868 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. It is my information that his credentials were
challenged, and that he was not seated.
Mr. ScHERER. Is that information correct, Witness?
Mr. Leach. I assert the previous reason.
Mr. ScHERER. It is evidently correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Your name has been found, Mr. Leach, in a
memorandum book that was in the possession of Mr. James Sage on
June 18, 1951. Your name appeared as the head of a group of
individuals under circumstances indicating that they proposed to
make a trip to Chicago on June 28 and 29 of 1951 to attend a conven-
tion sponsored by the American Peace Crusade.
Did you attend that convention?
Mr. Leach. I am sorry I have to assert the previous reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Mr. Sage?
Mr. Leach. I have to assert the previous reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr. Sage obtain your approval to take your
car and a group of people to go to Chicago?
Mr. Le.\ch. I will have to assert the previous reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it the Communist Party that organized this
caravan to Chicago to attend the American Peace Crusade convention?
Mr. Leach. I can't answer that question because I feel that under
the fifth amendment I am. entitled to that right of protection.
Mr. Tavenner. So you do refuse to answer on the gi'ounds that
to do so might tend to incriminate you. Is that your answer?
Mr. Leach. I gave you my reason.
Mr. Tavenner. No. Yoiu- reason was that you couldn't. You
can answer the question.
I ask you whether you do refuse to answer.
Mr. Leach. I do refuse to answer on that gi'ounds.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee has received testimony that you
were a member of one of the industrial units of the Communist Party
organized in St. Louis. Did you hear that testimony? A witness
referred to it as being the electric fraction of the Communist Party.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Will you name the witness you are referring to,
Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Cortor.
Mr. Leach. My attorney advises me that that testimony came
yesterday, and I was not here.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well.
Mr. Cortor testified that he met in Communist Party fraction
meetings of the electric group of the Communist Party and that you
attended those fraction meetings, indicating that you were a repre-
sentative of an organized group of the Communist Party in one of the
industries represented there.
Was that testimony true or was it false?
Mr. Leach. I am going to refuse to testify as to that under the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you refuse to give this committee
any information regarding the activities of the Communist Party in
industries in this area. Is that the position you are taking?
(There was no response.)
Mr. Tavenner. Is it?
Mr. Leach. I assert my previous reason.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4869
Mr. Tavenner. Ai'e you a member of the Communist Party now?
Mr. Leach. I assert my previous reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you active in the National Negro Labor
Council?
Mr. Leach. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of pos-
sible self-incrimination, and invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any tune been a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Leach. I assert the previous reason.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no fm'ther questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Frazier, any questions?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Zollie Carpenter.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Carpenter. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ZOLLIE C. CARPENTER
Mr. Carpenter. I have a prepared statement I would like to read,
if I may, please.
Mr. Moulder. It has been the rule of the committee that it would
delay the proceedings to such an extent it would be impossible to con-
duct hearings, but witnesses are permitted to file statements if they
so desire.
If you wish to give one of the investigators the copy of your state-
ment it will be made a part of the records of this committee.
(The statement referred to was filed for the information of the
committee.)
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, su?
Mr. Carpenter. Zollie C. Carpenter.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Carpenter, it is our practice to advise each
witness that he has the right to have comisel with him if he so desires,
and to consult with counsel at any time during the course of his
interrogation.
Mr. Carpenter. I don't have counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. I am informmg you as to your right in the event
you desire to exercise it.
When and where were you born, Mr. Carpenter?
Mr. Carpenter. January 3, 1906, in Craighead County, Ark.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of St. Louis?
Mr. Carpenter. Beg pardon?
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of St. Louis?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you liv^ed in St. Louis?
Mr. Carpenter. Approximately 28 years, I think.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been.
4870 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Carpenter. It is about equivalent to a grade school education
because where I was born and at the time the school facilities were
very bad. I mean
Mr. Tavenner. What is your present employment?
Mr. Carpenter. I work at Wagner Electric Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Carpenter, the investigation which the com-
mittee staff has made indicates that you are not now a member of the
Communist Party. Is our investigation correct on that?
Mr. Carpenter. I would refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that anything I may say may tend to incriminate me, and I
plead the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. That couldn't possibly incriminate you when I
tell you that it is our judgment that you are not a member of the
Communist Party.
Mr. Carpenter. I plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. You will not even admit that you are not a member
of the Communist Party. Is that right?
Mr. Carpenter. I plead the fifth amendment, that anything I
may say may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. You have made up your mind you will not answer
any question relating to the subject of communism. Is that it?
Mr. Carpenter. I plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. You will not give this committee any information
on the activities of the Communist Party in this area?
Mr. Carpenter. I would have to plead the fifth amendment
because anything I may say may tend to incriminate me. I do plead
it.
Mr. Tavenner. Regardless of the fact of whether you may or
may not be a member of the Communist Party at this time, were
you a member of the Communist Party in 1946?
Mr. Carpenter. I refuse to answer on the grounds I mentioned.
Air. Tavenner. Did you hear me read into the record a docinnent
prepared by the leaders of the Communist Party in the State of
Missouri, in which assignments were set forth, in writing, for various
individuals to different groups of the Communist Party? Were you
present?
Mr. Carpenter. I was in the hall.
Mr. Tavenner. In that document which I read it is stated that
tJiere should be assigned to leadership in the electrical unit of the
Com.munist Party a person by the name of Dottie and a person by
the name of Zollie.
Zollie is your first name, is it not?
Mr. Carpenter. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Were 3'OU assigned to the electrical unit of the
Communist Party as indicated by this document?
Mr. Carpenter. I would like to plead the fifth amendment on that
question, please.
Air. Tavenner. Was the person referred to as Dottie, Dottie
Sage?
Mr. Carpenter. I refuse on the grounds that I may incriminate
myself, fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Are 3'ou a member of the Communist Party at this-
time?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4871
Mr. Carpenter. I refuse to answer on the groimds that anything
I may say may tend to incriminate me, and, therefore, I plead the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. It is quite possible that we of the staff then are
^^Tong about our estimate of you.
Mr. Moulder. Do you know the objects and purposes of the
Communist Party in the United States?
Mr. Carpenter. I would like to plead the fifth amendment on
that question, please, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. If you were advised and informed and convinced
that the Communist Party movement within the United States was
to ultimately conspire to participate in the international conspiracy
to make this a Commmiist world and that they hoped to bring this
countrj' under the domination and complete influence of the Soviet
Union would you then favor or believe in the Communist Party pm"-
poses and objectives? Would you approve then- pm-poses and
objectives? I will put the question that wa}^.
\It. Carpenter. How did you ask that question? You mean if
this country would be invaded? Was that right?
Mr. Moulder. The question was would 3'ou approve of the
ultimate objective and goal of the Communist Party, to bring our
country under the domination and influence and complete control of
the Soviet Union as a part of the international consphacy to control
the world.
Mr. Carpenter. I would like to plead the fifth amendment
because anything that I might say might incriminate me.
Mr. Moulder. Very weU.
Proceed, Mr. Tavemier.
Mr. Tavenner. AYhat official position did you hold in the United
Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers 6i America in 1951?
Mr. Carpenter. In 1951?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Carpenter. Let's see.
I don't recall. I believe I was
Mr. Tavenner. How is that?
Mr. Carpenter. Let's see.
I belonged to the Electrical Workers in 1951 in the CIO.
Mr. Tavenner. Speak a little louder, please.
Mr. Carpenter. I at one time belonged to the UE, and am now
a member of the lUE-CIO.
Mr. Tavenner. In 1951 were you a member of the UE?
Mr. Carpenter. I don't recall the exact date on that. I will
have to
Mr. Tavenner. At the time you were a member of the UE did
you hold an official position in your local?
Mr. Carpenter. Various ones. I mean like shop steward.
Mr. Tavenner. Such as shop steward?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any position higher than shop
steward?
Mr. Carpenter. Board member.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold a higher position than board
member?
Mr. Carpenter. Not that I recall.
4872 COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever president?
Mr. Carpenter. No.
Mr. Tavenner. What positions did you hold other than shop
steward and board member?
Mr. Carpenter. I don't recall offhand.
Mr. Tavenner. Didn't the UE have positions that were called
trustees?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you a trustee?
Mr. Carpenter. That is right; I was a trustee in the last part of it.
Mr. Tavenner. Why did the UE adopt or have the position of
trustee?
Mr. Carpenter. They always did.
Mr. Tavenner. They alwa3^s did?
Mr. Carpenter. All the unions that I know of.
Mr. Tavenner. What were your duties as trustee?
Mr. Carpenter. I refuse to answer any further than that, on the
ground it might incrimmate me.
Mr. Tavenner. As a trustee you were required, imder the law, to
sign the Taft-Hartley non-Communist affidavit; were you not?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner, Here is your affidavit of February 5, 1951. Will
you examme it, please, and state whether or not that is your signature?
And also a second one of December 18, 1951.
(Documents handed to the witness.)
Mr. Carpenter. Just a minute, will you, please. Shall I have a
drink of water?
Mr. Tavenner. Surely.
I will ask that the first document be marked for identification as
"Carpenter Exhibit No. 1," and the second one as "No. 2."
Mr. Moulder. The first document will be marked "Carpenter
Exhibit No. 1," and the second document, "Carpenter Exhibit No.
2," as requested by counsel.
(The documents referred to were marked "Carpenter Exhibits Nos.
1 and 2" for identification.)
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recognize your signature on either of those
documents?
Mr. Carpenter. That is my signature on the document. And I
think that, since I am not a person that goes around violating the law
purposely, I think the record can stand for itself, answer for itself.
Mr. Tavenner. Did that record speak the truth as of that date?
Mr. Carpenter. It did.
Mr. Tavenner. You were not a member of the Communist Party
on February 5, 1951?
Mr. Carpenter. I refuse to answer on the grounds that I might
intimidate (sic) myself.
Mr. ScHERER. You are a little confused.
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment.
You said that the documents spoke the truth.
Mr. Carpenter. Speaks for itself.
Mr. Tavenner. You said it spoke the truth.
Mr. Carpenter. It speaks for itself.
Mr. Tavenner. No. You said it spoke the truth.
COMMUNIST ACTRITIES IX ST. LOUIS, ZMO., AREA 4873
This is what the document says:
I am a responsible officer of the union named below. I am not a member of
the Communist Party or affiliated with such part}'.
Is that statement true, at the time you made it?
Mr. Carpenter. It would have to be if I signed my signature.
Mr. Tavexxer. Then it was true and you were not a member of
the Com.niunist Party. Is that correct?
Mr. Carpenter. It stands for — that signature should •
Mr. Tavexner. I am not asking you anythmg about 3'our signature
I am asking you to state mider oath now whether or not you were a
member of the Commimist Party at the time 3'ou signed this affidavit,
which was February 5, 1951.
Mr. Carpenter. I refuse on the grounds that it might mtim.idate
(sic) me because I believe the signature should stand good for it.
Air. Tavexx'er. Just a minute.
Which is it?
The two things are inconsistent. You are saying, in one breath,
that the signature stands for your having told the truth, or, in sub-
stance, that; and you are saying you will not sa}" whether it was
true or not. You can't blow hot and cold in the sam.e breath.
Which is it? True or false?
Mr. Carpex^ter. I think the document will stand for itself, Mr.
Tavenner.
Mr. Tavexxer. No. My question was were 3'ou a member of the
Communist Part}^ on the oth day of February-, 1951.
Mr. Carpexter. If I signed an affidavit that I wasn't then I
wasn't.
Mr. Tavexxer. Answer the question specifically.
Mr. Chairman, may I have a direction that the witness answer the
question?
Air. AlouLDER. The witness is directed to answer the question and
give a direct response to the question, and not be evasive.
Air. Tavenner. The question is:
Were you a member of the Communist Partv on the 5th day of
February 1951?
Air. Carpenter. No.
Air. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on
the 18th day of December 1951?
Mr. Carpenter. What was the first date there?
Air. Tavenner. February 5, 1951.
Air. Carpenter. No.
Air. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time since December 18, 1951?
Air. Carpexter. I refuse to answer on the grounds that anything
I might say might tend to incriminate me.
Air. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on
the 4 th day of February 1951?
Air. Carpenter. I refuse to
Because I don't remember dates, and you have the dates, I refuse
to answer that question on
Air. Tavenx'er. Because you don't remember dates. In other
words, there was a date very close to the signing of this affidavit on
February 5, 1951, when you were a member of the Communist Party,
wasn't there?
4874 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Carpenter. I refuse to answer any further because you have
got me tangled up on dates there, and I can't remember the question.
Air. Tavenner. I understand you can easily get confused on dates.
I am trying to help you to refresh your recollection of dates.
You were not a member of the Communist Party, you said, on the
5th day of February 1951, and now I ask you if the day before that,
on the 4th, you were a member, and you said you were confused about
the exact dates, and, therefore, you didn't want to answer.
So I am asking you now how close to February 5, 1951, was it
that you were a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Carpenter. I will have to refuse to answer that because I
don't— anything I sa}^ I may incriminate myself, and I will have to
plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. So you plead the fifth amendment to that?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Actually did you have an understanding with the
leadership of the Communist Party that you would not consider
yourself a member merely for the purpose of signing this affidavit?
Mr. Carpenter. I refuse the question.
Mr. Tavenner. What did the Communist Party advise you to do
about signing this affidavit?
Mr. Carpenter. I refuse to answer tliat on the grounds it might
incriminate myself.
Mr. Tavenner. You say you were not a member of the Communist
Party at the time of the second affidavit, which was December 18,
1951.
Were you a member of the Communist Party on the following day,
the 19th of December?
Mr. Carpenter. I refuse to answer any questions on that be-
cause •
Mr. Tavenner. Did you resign the day before, sign the affidavit,
and then join the next day Hke some did? Is that what you did?
Mr. Carpenter. Not the day before, no.
Mr. Tavenner. Not the day before, but how many days before
was it that you did that?
Mr. Carpenter. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may
incriminate myself.
Mr. Moulder. Is that all, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr, Tavenner. I am very sorry that you have not seen fit to
advise the committee of methods used by the Communist Party in
the handling of these non-Communist affidavits. It has been the sub-
ject of a great deal of study by this committee. It was the basis of
the recommendation by this committee of the Communist Control
Act of 1954.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you think, Mr. Counsel, that this witness pos-
sesses sufficient information on that subject that would warrant us in
granting him immunity?
Mr. Tavenner. I am inclined to think, in light of his answers, that
he does.
Mr. Carpenter. I am sorry. You will have to talk louder.
Mr. ScHERER. I win explain.
You have refused to answer the pertinent questions asked you by
Mr. Tavenner on the ground that to do so might tend to incruninate
you. In other words, if you answered the questions the answering of
COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4875
those questions might tend in some way to subject you to a criminal
prosecution.
As I explained to one or two previous witnesses, the law now pro-
vides that this committee may grant you immunity from prosecution
if you answer the questions. In other words, this committee, with the
approval of a Federal com't, may say go ahead and answer the ques-
tions, and then, when 3'ou answer the questions, you cannot possibly
suffer any criminal prosecution.
Now, as I understand it, your sole reason for refusing to answer the
questions — I don't want to be repetitious — is the fact that you might
suffer criminal prosecution. If we remove that possibility by grant-
ing you immunit.v, which we have the right to do under the law, would
3'ou then answer the questions? Because we feel you have some infor-
mation on this subject of the signing of non-Communist affidavits
which would be very helpful to the Government.
Air. Carpenter. I feel that I would have to refrain from answering
the questions, that the answer may tend to intimidate (sic) me, and,
therefore, I would plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. Obviously you don't understand what I am trying
to tell you, and I perhaps don't blame you. Maybe I didn't make it
very clear.
Mr. Moulder. I think Mr. Scherer has made a very clear statement
and explanation to you. However, I wUl say that I don't thmk you
need immunity. If you answer the cpiestions that have been pro-
pounded to you fairly and honestly and clearly and without evasion
you would not be subject to prosecution for so testifying without
immunity.
Proceed with your explanation, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. In view of what Mr. Tavenner said, this matter
has been the subject of uivestigation by this committee and that we
are considering legislation and that this witness does have some
information as to the Communist Party's instructions with reference
to signing non-Communist affidavits under the Taft-Hartley law, we
do feel you have valuable testimony.
Did you understand what I tried to say to you before? You are
refusing to answer these questions, and you have a right to refuse to
answer them if you honestly believe that to answer them might lead to
a criminal prosecution. That is your reason for refusmg to answer.
Is that not right?
Mr. Carpenter. That is.
Mr. Scherer. If we remove any prosecution by givmg you
immunity, which we have the right to do, so that you don't have to
fear prosecution no matter what you say, then would you be willing
to answer the questions?
Do A^ou understand what I am trying to tell you?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, sh.
Mr. Scherer. You understand what I am trying to say.
Now can you answer the question, namely, would you then answer?
Mr. Carpenter. I would like to refuse to answer any questions in
regard to such on the grounds that I msby incriminate mj^self, tend to
incriminate myself, and plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. I should certainly direct you to answer the queston
Mr. Scherer has asked you. What is your answer to that question?
He asked you whether or not, if you were granted immunity, you
4876 COAIAIUXIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
would testih'. He made a very lengthy and clear and convincing-
explanation of it.
Would you so testify if you were granted immunit}'?
Mr. Carpenter. I would have to plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Very well.
Mr. ScHERER. IS'Iay I say one more thing.
Do 3^ou think perhaps if you talked to an attorney or counsel^ —
Would you want to do that?
I think you are a pretty nice fellow. I think you are out of the
part3\
I think he has gotten out of the party.
It may be just a little confusing. I think he has some information
that would be helpful to this committee.
I don't desire to see this man prosecuted even if he answered without
immunity.
What I am saying is would you want to consult an attorney?
Mr. Carpenter. I would plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Any more questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. I desh-e, Mr. Chairman, that the two documents
I have presented to the witness, marked "Carpenter Exhibits Nos. 1
and 2," respectively, be filed for the information of the committee.
Mr. Moulder. So ordered.
(The documents referred to were marked "Carpenter Exhibits Nos.
1 and 2," and fded for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. AlouLDER. An}^ questions, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. ScHERER. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. You are excused as a witness.
You may call your next witness, please.
Air. Tavenner. Mr. James Payne.
Mr. AlouLDER. Hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr, Payne. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES PAYNE
Mr. Tavenner. ^Vliat is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Payne. James Payne.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Payne, it is the practice of the committee to
advise each witness that he has the right to have counsel with him if
he desires, and the right to confer with counsel at any time during his
testimony if he desires. It is noted that you do not have counsel
with you.
Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Payne?
Mr. Payne. I was born in Oklahoma in 1909.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you now reside?
Mr. Payne. Evansville, Ind.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Evans^nlle?
Air. Payne. Approximately 18 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee brie% what your
formal educational training has been.
co:mmuxist activities in st. louis, mo.; area 4877
Mr. Payne . Eighth grade.
Mr. Tavenxer. I believe you are now president of Local 2040 of a
union. Is that correct?
Mr. Payxe. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavexxer. Does Local 2040 of the Litcrnational Association of
Machinists have the bargaining rights at the Scrvel Co. and at the
Faultless Caster Co. at Evansville, Ind.?
Mr. Payxe. I decline on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavexxer. Li 1958 were you an official of a local union of the
United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America?
Mr. Payxe. I decline to answer for the sam.e grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Tavexxer. As a matter of fact, you were a responsible officer
of the United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America,
Local 813, in 1952, were you not?
Mr. Payxe. I decline for the same reason.
AL\ Tavexxer. As an official officer of that union you were re-
quired to sign the non-Communist affidavit under the provisions of
the Taft-Hartley Act; were j'ou not?
Mr. Payxe. I decline for the same reason previously stated.
Mr. Tavexxer. I hand you a photostatic copy of an affidavit of
non-Communist imion officer purportedly signed by James Payne,
and I ask you to examine it and state whether or not that is your
signature. The document is marked for identification "Pavne Ex-
hibit No. L"
(Document handed to the witnesss.)
^L'. Payxe. I decline to answer.
I think the document speaks for itself. It is on ffie with the Justice
Departm.ent.
Mr. Tavexxer. Is that your signature on the document?
Mr. Payxe. That I wouldn't be certain of.
]Mr. Tavexxer. You would not be certain?
Mr. Payxe. No, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. Llave you ever signed a non-Communist affidavit?
Mr. Payxe. I certainly have.
Mr. Tavexxer. I desire the document marked ''Pajoie Exhibit No.
1" be made a part of the records of the committee.
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked and filed.
(The document referred to was marked "Payne Exhibit No. 1"
and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Tavexxer. The document states:
1. I am a respon.sible officer of the union named below.
2. I am not a member of the Communist Party or affiliated with such party.
3. I do not believe in, and I am not a member of nor do I support any organi-
zation that believes in or teaches, the overthrow of the United States Govern-
ment by force or by any illegal or unconstitutional methods.
United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America (UE) Local 81.3.
Signature: "James Payne".
Where did you reside in December of 1952?
Mr. Payxe. I decline to answer on the previous reasons.
Mr. Tavexxer. Is that because j^our true residence appears on
the affidavit which I handed vou?
4878 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Payne. My true residence for approximately 18 years, as I
stated previousl}^, has been Evansville, Ind.
Mr. Tavenner. What address in Evansville?
Mr. Payne. It states in the affidavit.
Mr. Tavenner. Which is 518 ^Maxwell Avenue. Is that your
address?
Mr. Payne. That is exactly correct.
Mr. Tavenner. So that the James Payne who signed this affidavit
is the James Payne who lived at 518 Maxwell Avenue?
Mr. Payne. If that is my signature that is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. There is no other James Payne living at 518
Maxwell Avenue, is there?
Mr. Payne. If there are I haven't seen them.
There are, however, Mr. Tavenner — there are several James Paynes
in that city.
Mr. Tavenner. That is one reason that I am questioning you with
this particularity.
There is no other James Pavne other than vou at 518 Maxwell
Avenue, is there?
Mr. Payne. No, sir. I have lived there for the last 7 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Then we find at the bottom of this affidavit this
stateinent:
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 19th day of December 1952, a notary
public or other person authorized by law to administer oaths and take acknowl-
edgments in and for the county of Vanderburgh, State of Indiana.
My commission expires July 21, 1956.
Sadelle Berger.
Was Sadelle Berger an emplo.yee in the office of the United Elec-
trical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America, Local 813?
Mr. Payne. I decline to answer for the reasons previously given.
Mr. Tavenner. You knew Sadelle Berger to be a member of the
Communist Party, did you not?
Mr. Payne. I decline for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. She has been so identified here today in testimony.
Mr. ScHERER. Is she still a notary?
Mr. Tavenner. She was in 1952.
Were you in the hearing room yesterday?
Mr. Payne. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. Tavenner. Yesterday there was a witness by the name of
Cortor who testified before this committee. He testified that he
attended fraction meetings of the Communist Party within the elec-
trical unit of the Communist Party. He said those fraction meetings
were made up of representatives from probably six or eight electrical
industries, including Wagner, Century, Superior, and others from
which representatives — that is, members of the Communist Party
groups in those industries — met on a fraction level to conduct the
business of the Communist Party relating to tlie Communist fraction.
He said there was an amalgamated group of the union which smaller,
independent concerns had bargaining contracts witli. One of those
was the Johnston Tin Foil. He told the committee that you were
the representative from the Communist group that met with this
fraction, and that your emplovment at the time was with Johnston
Tin Foil.
Is any part of that testimony insofar as it related to you untrue?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES TNT ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4879
Mr. Payne. I decline to answer on the reasons ])revioiisly pven.
Mr. Tavexner. AVere you employed by Johnston Tin Foil at any
time?
Mr. Payxe. About 19 or 20 years ago. I think it v.as.
Mr. Tavexxer. While employed by Johnston Tin Foil did you
belong to a group or unit of the Communist Party?
Mr. Payne. That I decline to answer because of the reasons
previously given.
Mr. Tavexxer. "\Miat is the nature of the business being conducted
now by the plants in which your local union has bargaining rights?
Mr. Payxe. I decline to answer on the giounds of possible self-
incrimination.
Mr. Scherer. I ask you to direct the witness to answer that question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed.
Mr. Payxe. I still decline on the same grounds,
Mr. Scherer. It should be clear we do not accept that answer, be-
cause obviously he can tell us what type of acti\'ity the companies are
engaged in, and it could not possil)ly incriminate him.
Mr. Moulder. "\Yliat company do you work for?
Mr. Payxe. I do not work for any company, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. You are president of a local; are you not?
Mr. Payxe. That is correct.
Mr. Tavexxer. And that local is the National Association of
Machinists, or in the National Association of Machinists, is it not?
Mr. Payxe. I think I previouslv declined to answer that on the
basis of the fifth amendment.
Air. Scherer. I think you should direct him to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. What union he is president of.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed.
Mr. Payxe. I still decline, sir, on the basis my union affiliation is
not a matter of investigation.
Mr. Scherer. Is that the reason?
Mr. Payne. No. It is on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavexx^er. Were you at one time, as late as 1954, secretary
of District 8 of the United Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers,
which is the district in which St. Louis is located?
Mr. Payxe. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
given.
Air. Scherer. I ask 3"ou direct the witness to answer.
Air. AIoulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Air. Payxe. I still decline, sir, on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment and on the basis that my union affiliation is of no concern of
this committee.
Air. Scherer. Except to the extent that there might be some effort
to infiltrate that union by the Communist conspiracy. Then it is
within the scope and purview of this committee.
Air. Payxe. Air. Scherer, I no longer belong to that union.
Air. Scherer. But you may have been a member of the Communist
Party at the time you were with that union.
Air. Payxe. Then I think the question should be directed along
those lines rather than my union affiliation.
Air. Scherer. Did you belong to the union? We have to ask a'ou
first whether you belonged to that union.
4880 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Payne. I think counsel has estabHshed that.
Mr. ScHERER. You have refused to answer.
Mr. Payne. No; I didn't. He said I was president of a union
local, and I said that was correct.
Mr. ScHERER. I am sorry. I apologize.
Were you a member of the Communist Party at the time you were
a member?
Mr. Payne. That I decline to answer on the grounds previously
given.
Mr. Tavenner. I find, Mr. Payne, that I have a photostatic copy
of the current non-Communist affidavit of yours, which I desire to
have marked "Payne Exhibit No. 2" for identification purposes.
Will you hand it to the witness so that he may examine it.
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. I desire \lr. Chairman, that the document be
made a part of the records of the committee.
Mr. Moulder. "Payne Exhibit No. 2" will be so admitted.
(The document referred to was marked "Payne Exhibit No. 2"
and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Payne, is that your non-Communist affidavit
for the year, or for the period covered — December 5, 1955 — which
would be for the current year?
Mr. Payne. It appears to be a photostat. Other than that state-
ment I couldn't swear to the veracity of the document itself.
Mr. Tavenner. The address is still 518 Maxwell?
Mr. Payne. I have not moved, su".
]Mr. Tavenner. And neither has the address on your non-Com-
munist affidavit changed?
Mr. Payne. No, sir; it hasn't. In fact, I previously testified I
have been living there 11 years.
Mr. Tavenner. This shows that James Payne is a responsible
officer of Local 2040, International Association of Machinists. There
is that difference from the time of the other that I showed you because
at that time you were with the UE.
The sworn statement at the bottom of it, or, in other words, the
notary public is still Saddle Berger.
Is Saddle Berger a secretary of Local 2040 or office manager of
Local 2040 at this time?
Mr. Payne. That I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. When you signed that affidavit did you tell the
truth?
Mr. Payne. I think the affidavit speaks for itself, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Payne. I decline to answer your question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. You mean you won't tell this committee now
whether you told the truth when you signed that affidavit?
Mr. Payne. Mr. Scherer, the Justice Department has copies of that
affidavit.
I am quite sure if I had falsely sworn they would take the proper
action in the proper court. Insofar as this hearing is concerned, I de-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4881
cline to answer your question on the gromids of the protection of
the fifth amendment of tlie Constitution of tlie United States.
Mr. ScHERER. All right.
I think 3^ou are in contempt of this committee, sir, if you don't
answer that question.
Mr. Payne. I didn't mean to be contemptuous, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't mean you had a contemptuous attitude.
You have a very fine attitude. But I do think you are in contempt for
refusing to answer that question. Here you have signed an affidavit
and you refuse to tell tliis committee at this time whether you told
the truth when you signed that affidavit.
Mr. Tavenner. The first affidavit, Payne Exhibit No. 1, bears
date the 19th day of December 1952. Will you tell the committee,
please, whether or not you received advice or direction from the
Communist Party regarding the signing of that affidavit or any other
non-Communist affidavit under the Taft-Hartley Act which you may
have signed prior to that date?
Mr. Payne. To that I will ansvrer "No."
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
the time you signed the non-Communist affidavit of December 19,
1952?
Mr. Payne. That I decline to answer on the grounds previously
given to the previous questions.
Mr. Tavenner. Did j^ou hear discussed in any Communist Party
group the question of officers of the United Electrical, Radio and
!Macliine Workers of America signing the non-Communist affidavit?
Mr. Payne. I am not sure I understand the question.
Air. Tavenner. Yes.
I asked you a moment ago whether 3'ou were advised or directed
what to do about signing non-Communist affidavits by the Commu-
nist Party, and you said No. Now I am asking j^ou whether you heard
that matter discussed in any Communist Party gi'oup.
Mr. Payne. I think the question is ratlier tricky, and I will decline
to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. No; there is no trick about it.
Did you receive advice about the signing of tins non-Communist
affidavit b}^ any official of tlie United Electrical, Radio and Machine
Workers? *
Mr. Payne. I don't recollect receiving any advice on it. I think
the filling out of one of those forms is very simple. It doesn't take
any high officer in the union to advise you as to signing your name
and reading the document that is there.
Mr. Scherer. Let me ask this question:
Did you knov/ what the polic^y of the Communist Party was with
reference to signing non-Communist oaths under the Taft-Hartley
Act?
Mr. Payne. That, Mr. Scherer, I have to decline to answer on the
gi'ounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask this question:
Where did you sign the affidavit?
Mr. Payne. Wliere?
Mr. Moulder. Where? I mean at what place. What office?
Mr. Payne. I have signed about, I think, since 1948, 1949, Mr.
Moulder — I certainly don't recall where. The chances are that it
was in a notary's office.
4882 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Moulder. Who is the notary?
Mr. Payne. It has never been the same one except I think Mr.
Tavenner pointed out here, I think, there are two times Mrs. Berger
had signed. But obviously it woukl have been in her presence, in
accordance with the kiw governing notaries. But previous to that
I certainly couldn't remember.
Mr. Moulder. Wliere was her office located? Do you know?
Mr. Payne. I am not sure that I didn't sign it at her home, sir.
I just don't recall.
Mr. Scherer. That wasn't the question.
Where was her office?
Mr. Payne. That I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. She is the office manager, isn't she?
Mr. Payne. I think I declined that before, Mr. Tavenner, and I
still decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. He just said he didn't know where her office was.
How could he decline?
Mr. Payne. As I understood your question, sir, you asked about
her office.
I don't know of her having an office.
Mr. Scherer. You know what I meant.
Mr. Payne. I answered your question as you gave it.
Mr. Scherer. ^Vliat office does she work in?
Mr. Payne. That I decline to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Payne, are you acquainted with Victor Pasclie?
Ml-. Payne. That I will decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendnient, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't he now public relations director of your own
Local 2040, the one of which you are the president?
Mr. Payne. I decline on the same basis.
Mr. Tavenner. Vic Pasche was identified by the witness Younglove
as being a person known to him to have been a member of the Com-
munist Party. Do you know whether he was a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Payne. I decline to answer on the basis as previously given.
Mr. Tavenner. I wish you would tell the committee whether or
not you have been a m.ember of the Communist Party at any time
since you left United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of
America.
Mr. Payne. I decline to answer that on the basis as previously
given, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
any time you held an official position in the United Electrical, Radio
and Machine Workers?
Mr. Payne. I decline on the same basis.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Ciiairman.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer?
Air. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness will be excused.
Mr. Payne. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Do you have another witness?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4883
Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Dorothy Sage.
Mr. Moulder. Will yon please hold u]) your right hand and be
sworn, Mrs. Sage.
Do you solemnxy swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, so help you, God?
Mrs. Sage. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HELEN SAGE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
GARNET W. TAYLOR
Mr. Tavenner. \Miat is 3^our name, please?
Mrs. Sage. Helen wSage
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that the witness is accompanied by
coimsel, Mr. Taylor, who has previously been identified for the record.
Mr. Taylor. Yes. And she was referred to me by the Bar Associa-
tion of the City of St. Louis.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Sage, what was your maiden name?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. Aukamp, A-u-k-a-m-p.
Mr. Tavenner. What did you say is your first name?
Mrs. Sage. Helen.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that your full name?
Mrs. Sage. My full name, according to the birth certificate that I
have before me, is Helen Hulda Ei-na Aukamp.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been known also as Dorothy?
Mrs. Sage. As Dottie, yes, I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Commonly referred to by your friends as Dottie?
Mrs. Sage. Yes, occasionally.
Mr. Tavenner. And Dorothy?
Mrs. Sage. Occasionally.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you also been referred to by the name of
Dorothy in the press?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenn-er. In a photostatic copy of the April 15, 1948, issue
of the St. Louis Globe-Democrat there appears on the first page a
picture. Will you examine the document, please, the printed material
underneath the photograph, and state whether or not you recall it as
having been a photograph of you.
(Document handed to the witness and her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I refuse to answer that question, and claim the privilege
against self-incrimination guaranteed by the fifth amendment of the
Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence, and ask
that it be marked for identification onlv as "Dorothv Sage Exhibit
No. 1."
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked.
(The document referred to was marked "Dorothy Sage Exhibit
No. 1," and filed for the information of the committee.)
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer withdrew from the hearing
room at this point.)
4884 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Underneath the photograph that I have pointed
out to you is this notation:
A Communist, Mrs. Dorothy A. Sage, was transferred from her job i-i a restricted
area at the Emerson Electric Alanufacturing Co. for security reasons.
Were you an employee of the Emerson Electric Manufacturing Co.
shortly prior to April 15, 1948?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Airs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on the grounds previ-
ously given.
i\ir. Moulder. I advise you then also that hereafter if you wish to
decline to answer and use the reasons for doing so — the protection of
the Constitution in that particular reason — you just merely state you
decline to answer the question for the reasons heretofore given.
Mr. Taylor. Mr. Chairman, I believe yesterday we were giving a
long answer, and you informed me that we could come down, or the
person I was representing could use the short answer.
Mr. Moulder. Either way you prefer to do it. I was trying to be
helpful.
Mr. Taylor. oSlr. Tavenner, do you want the long answer or do you
want the short answer?
Mr. Tavenner. It isn't what I want. It is perfectly satisfactory
whatever the chairman says.
Mr. Moulder. It is up to you.
Mrs. Sage. I refuse to answer that question, and claim the privilege
against self-incrimination guaranteed by the fifth amendment of the
Constitution of the United States.
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer returned to the hearing room
at this pomt.)
Mr. Tavenner. Were you present hi the liearing room yesterday?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Airs. Sage. I was part of the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear Mr. Cortor testifj'?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. Part of the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear that part of his testimony relating
to the meeting with fractions of the Communist Party within the
electrical units of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I heard Mr. Cortor say that.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear Mr. Cortor testify with regard to
activities in the j'outh group of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. I will make it easier.
According to my recollection, Mr. Cortor testified that he knew you
as a member of the Communist Party, and that you were engaged in
the youth work of the Communist Party.
Was his statement in that respect true or was it false?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I refuse to answer that question, and claim the privilege
against self-incrimination guaranteed by the fifth amendment of the
Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Tavenner. I read into the record, during the testimony of Mr.
Younglove, a document entitled "Proposed Plan for Alissouri State
Party Building Conference," bearing date of March 2 and 3, 1946.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4885
That document showed and provides as follows:
Following are some of the proposed assignments: Electrical — Dottie.
Mr. Younglove testified that Dottie referred to you.
Did you accept the assignment to work in recruiting persons in the
electrical units of the Communist Party, in the electrical units of
industry in St. Louis?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. 1 refuse to answer that question, and claim the privilege
against self-incrimination guaranteed by the fifth amendment of the
Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain employed in the electri-
cal industry, or over what period of time were you employed in the
electrical industry?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I refuse to answer that question, and claim the privilege
against self-incrimination guaranteed by the fifth amendment of the
Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Tavenner. You were one of those who infiltrated the electrical
industry at the instance of the Communist Party; were you not?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Airs. Sage. I refuse to answer that question, and claim the privilege
against self-incrimination guaranteed by the fifth amendment of the
Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Tavenner. You were discovered, and, as a result of it, you
were not permitted to go into restricted areas of the Emerson Electric
Manufactming Co. Isn't that true?
Mr. Taylor. Mr. Tavenner, do you wish a shorter answer?
Mr. Tavenner. I certainly do. I thought you preferred the other.
I am very agreeable.
Mr. Taylor. Mr. Tavenner, yesterday I believe we were advised
by the committee. Do we have that same advice of the committee
now?
Mr. Tavenner. The chahman rather suggested it to you awhile
ago.
Mr. Taylor. I didn't understand the chairman that way, Mr.
Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I did. Maybe I am mistaken.
Mr. Taylor. We are willing to abide and expedite it.
Mr. Moulder. If the witness wishes to decline to answer and claim
the privilege of the Constitution she may do so by merely stating that
she declines to answer for the same reasons heretofore given. It wOl
serve the same purpose as having given the full, complete answer
which you have been reading.
Mr. Taylor. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. The article appearing next to the photograph has
the heading:
"Woman Comiuunist Is Found in War Plant Here. Fails To Show
Up After She Is Shifted. Mrs. Sage Admits Being Red and Boosts
Wallace."
Were 3^ou correctly reported?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds pre-
viously given.
4886 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. The article says this, that 3^011 were 1 of 3 employees
transferred from the restricted area.
AVho were the other two?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on the grounds
previously given.
Mr. Tavenner. Were the other two persons placed in Emerson
Electric by the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on grounds previously
given.
Mr. Tavea'Ner. The article states:
She is Mrs. Dorothy Aukamp Sage, who lives at 5673 Cabanne Ave., which is
also the address of William Sentuer, president of district 8, CIO United Electrical,
Radio and Machine Workers of America — ■
and so on .
Were you correctly reported as living at the address of William
Sentner, president of the UE District 8?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on the grounds
previously given.
Mr. Tavenner. Was William Sentner responsible for your obtain-
ing a position in Emerson Electric?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on the grounds
previously given.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you ever engage in espionage against the United
States, madam?
Mrs. Sage. I decline to ansv/er the question on the grounds
previously given.
Mr. ScHERER. You mean you won't tell us whether you engaged in
espionage against the United States?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Airs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on the grounds pre-
viously given.
Mr. Taylor. Mr. Scherer, could I address you just one minute?
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. Taylor. Would you give my client just — did I understand you
to say "yes" or "no"?
Mr. Scherer. I said "no."
Abide by the rules of the committee.
Mr. Taylor. I'm sorry. I understand.
I just wanted to explain that one particular question. If you
would give us some immunity on that, that we would only limit it
to the one question without waiving anything else for my client.
Mr. Tavenner. No, Mr. Chairman, I don't think this committee
should enter into any terms or agreements as to how far a witness
is willing to testify and how far they are not.
Mr. Taylor. Just on this one question was all I was asking, Mr.
Tavenner. It makes kind of a bad — —
Mr. Moulder. Let us proceed.
If the witness had been guilty of espionage certainly we wouldn't
desire to offer her any immunity from prosecution. On the other
hand, if she is not guilty of espionage she can certainly give the
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4887
answer here that she is not and never has been, and be hnmune from
prosecution if she is not guilty.
Mr. Taylor. Mr. Moulder, I have studied a little law, and I know
the advantage of that question sometimes.
If it is answered in either the negative or the affirmative it offers a
waiver of your privilege against self-incrimination, whether it is
answered in either the affirmative or negative.
Therefore, I know my client would like to answer the question if it
is relative to the one question only and not givuig away the waiver.
Mr. ScHERER. There are a lot of people that would like to answer
only certain questions and pick out the questions.
Mr. Taylor. This is just the one question, Mr. Scherer.
I am speaking because my client has called it to my attention prior.
But, due to being a lawyer, I know that I have to recommend she give
the stated answer unless you will restrict it to that one question only
and not let my client give away her waiver of the privilege of sejf-
incrimination.
Mr. Scherer. I think she has had ver}^ good advice.
Mr. Taylor. I thank you. Congressman.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenneji. How were you employed after April 15, 1948?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on the grounds previ-
ously given.
Mr. Scherer. I will ask you another question.
Did you ever report to the Communist Party any information you
got while an employee of the Emerson Co.?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. That isn't quite as harsh as the term espionage.
See if you can answer that.
Mrs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on the grounds pre-
viousl;^ given.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat type of classified products was Emerson
engaged in manufactming prior to 1948?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sa.ge. I decline to answer the question on the gi^ounds pre-
viousl}^ given.
Mr. Tavenner. Part of its enterprise was engaged in the manufac-
ture of defense materials for the United States Government; w^as it
not?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on the grounds pre-
viously given.
Mr. Tavenner. What restricted areas were there at the plant?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Tavexer. You arc indicating by shaking j^our head that you
do not know.
Were you restricted from being in certain areas?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on grounds previously
given.
Mr. Tavenner. Are 3^ou now a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on grounds previously
given.
4888 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST, LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr, Tavenner. Are you employed at this time?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. No; I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your last employment?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I am a housewife.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your last employment?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on grounds previously
given.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist
Party at any time since 1952?
Mrs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on grounds previously
given.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist
Party at any time that I have not specifically inquired about?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Airs. Sage. I decline to answer the question on grounds previously
given.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr, Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. You are the wife of James H. Sage who testified here
today?
Mrs. Sage, I am.
Mr. Frazier. Did you accompany him when he went to Europe?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Taylor, Mr. Frazier, would you break that question down into
parts? You have got more than one part in it, I believe.
Mr, Frazier, No. I just asked if she accompanied her husband
when he went to Em'ope.
Mr, Taylor, Could you say— —
Mr. Frazier, Well, I will ask her if she has ever been to Europe.
Mrs, Sage. No; I have not.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you laiow whether your husband went to Europe?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Sage. I refuse to answer that question, and claim the privilege
of wife and husband, and refuse to testify agamst my husband.
Mr. ScHERER. He isn't being charged in a crimmal case. You are
not testifying against him,
Mr. Taylor. I believe if 3^ou read your rules of committee it is in
your rules of the committee.
Mr, Moulder. The witness is excused.
And I wish to compliment and commend the distinguished attorney
Mr. Taylor, whom I have Imown for many years, in his conduct in
appearance and representation of this witness.
Thank you very much.
The committee will stand in recess until 9:30 a, m., tomorrow
morning.
All witnesses subpenaed for appearance here today are hereby
notified to appear, their subpenas continuing, in the mornmg at
9:30 a. m.
(Wliereupon, at 5:05 p. m., Tuesday, June 5, the subcommittee was
recessed, to be reconvened at 9:30 a. m., Wednesday, June 6, 1956,
there being present at the time of the recess Representatives Moulder,
Frazier, and Sdierer.)
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