HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY
GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— PART 10
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICM ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
APRIL 20 AND 21, 1956
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INCLUDING INDEX)
HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRAWB
DEPOSITED BY THE
.UNITED STATES GOVERNMENH
AUG 16 1956
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
77436 WASHINGTON : 1956
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois
CLYDE DOYLE, California BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York
JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee DONALD L. JACKSON, California
EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio
RiCHARt> Aeens, Director
n
CONTENTS
PART 7
April 16, 1956 :
Testimony of— Page
William Don Waddilove 3660
Edith Rapport (Mrs. George Rapport) 3676
Afternoon session —
Rubin Decker 3695
Joseph Pass 3711
Sami^el Berland 3718
Sylvia Lardner Darnell (Mrs. Carter Darnell) 3726
Carter Darnell 3728
Milton Kestenbaum 3733
Sidney Greene 3737
Panl Powell 3749
PART 8
April 17, 1956 :
Testimony of Nikolai Khokhlov 3756
PART 9
April 19, 1956 :
Testimony of —
Albert Glasser 3821
Katherine Glasser (Mrs. Albert Glasser) 3837
Herbert Offner 3841
Sam Fordis 3850
Henry Roth 3854
Afternoon session, testimony of —
Cvril Towbin 3862
Helen Teverniti 3869
Lewis Elias 3870
Leonard H. Dahlsten -— 3881
Henry Roth (resumed) 3885
Cvril Towbin (resumed) 3887
Victor Gottlieb 3887
Manuel L. Compiusky 3892
Eudice Gottlieb (Mrs. Victor Gottlieb) 3896
Milton Feher 3897
PART 10
April 20, 1956:
Testimony of —
Thomas Wulfrid Nelson 3901
Arthur Globe 3915
Don Christlieb 3918
Afternoon session, testimony of —
Ramez Idriss 3934
Joseph DiFiore 3937
Edgar Lustgarten 3939
m
IV CONTENTS
April 20, 1956— Continued
Afternoon session, testimony of — Continued Pa^e
Morris Boltuch 3942
Philip Goldberg 3948
Joseph Eger 3951
Kalman Bloch 3955
Jack (L) Pepper 3964
Jean C. Musick 3967
Manuel Newman 3974
Roy Frankson 3977
Herbert Lessner 3979
George Kast 3984
April 21, 1956 :
Testimony of —
John Walter Porter 3990
Jessica Rhine Wildman 4006
Afternoon session, testimony of — ■
Louis R. Sherman 4021
William Ward Kimple 4026
Louis R. Sherman (resumed) 4033
Thomas A. Chapman 4042
Sidney London 4047
Alfred Hale Caplan 4053
John T. McTernan 4061
Index 1
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress (1946), chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWEES AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American Activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects to un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authoized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 84TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955
Rule X
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress,
the following standing committees :
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
* H: 4: H: ^ 4i 4i
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
4i ^ H: ^ 4: # If
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American Activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such invest!
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of
such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to
take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the
signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by sny such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— PART 10
FRIDAY, APRIL 20, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles, Calif.
public hearing
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
lit 9 : 30 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 518, Federal Building, Los
Angeles, Calif., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder (chairman of the subcom-
mittee) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Morgan M. Moulder,
of Missouri (presiding), Clyde Doyle, of California, Donald L. Jack-
son, of California, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Wil-
liam A. Wheeler and Courtney E. Owens, investigators.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Tavenner, would you call your first witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Thomas W. Nelson.
Mr. Moulder. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you ai-e about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help
you, God ?
Mr. Nelson. I do so affirm.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS WALFRID NELSON, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, EOSE S. ROSENBERG
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir.
Mr. Nelson. Thomas W. Nelson.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify herself for the record.
Mrs. Rosenberg. Rose S. Rosenberg, b-e-r-g.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Nelson ?
Mr. Nelson. I was born Februaiy 24, 1913, in Little Kock, Wash.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Nelson. In Long Beach.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in Long Beach?
Mr. Nelson. Approximately 4 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been.
Mr. Nelson. I have been educated in the public schools of the State
of Washington. I was graduated from the Washington schools in
3901
3902 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Olympia, Wash. In my o;ramniar school education I was valedic-
torian of my class. From Olympia High School I was salutatorian of
a class of 160 pupils. I have a bachelor's degree from Western Col-
lege of Education. I have had 1 year of graduate training at the Uni-
versity of Washington.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you receive your bachelor's degree ?
Mr. Nelson. In 1937.
The graduate training at the University of Washington completes
my formal education.
Mr. TA^^NNER. When did you complete your graduate training?
Mr. Nelson. In 1941.
Mr, Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your em-
ployment has been since 1941.
Mr. Nelson. I have been employed by the United States Govern-
ment from 1941 to 1945. I was employed by the United Nations from
1945 to 1947. I have been employed by the United States Govern-
ment from 1947 to 1949. I have been employed by Los Angeles
County in 1949, and I have been employed by the Monrovia-Duarte
Evening High School 1949-51.
Mr. Tavenner. Where is that located ?
Mr. Nelson. It is located in Monrovia, Calif.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you employed as a teacher there? Is that
what you mean ?
Mr. Nelson. Yes, sir ; that is what I mean.
From 1951 to 1952 I was employed by the State of California. In
1952 I was employed by the Arcadia Unified School District. Since
1952 I have been employed by Los Angeles County.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you mean that your employment between 1951
and 1952 by the State of California was in the teaching profession?
Mr. Nelson. No, sir.
.Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of that employment?
Mr. Nelson. I was a State parole officer.
Mr. Tavenner. What has been your employment since 1952?
Mr. Nelson. With Los Angeles County.
Mr. Tavenner. In what capacity ?
Mr. Nelson. A medical social worker.
Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say that from 1941 to 1945 you
were employed by the United States Government. What was the
nature of that employment?
Mr. Nelson. For some months I was employed as a field grant
supervisor at Yakima, Wash., where I was assigned to the adminis-
tration of the Federal grant program administering relief to migra-
tory farm laborers. Later I was promoted to regional grant super-
visor, supervising the program throughout the States of Oregon,
Washington, and Idaho, with headquarters at Portland, Oreg. When
the Department of Agriculture Farm Security Administration pro-
gram was transferred to the War Food Administration, Office of La-
bor, I transferred to that agency in 1943, and continued with it until
1945.
Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time did you have any assign-
ment in the Agriculture Department in Washington, D. C?
Mr. Nelson. I did not.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3903
Mr. Tavennek. I believe you said that from 1945 to 1947 you were
employed by UNRRA. What was the nature of your employment
during that period of time ?
Mr. Nelson. I was a welfare officer in the displaced persons pro-
gram, assigned to the American Zone of Germany.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the general nature of your duties there?
Mr. Nelson. The general nature of my duties was to set up and
supervise the welfare programs for the victims of Nazi terror who
were housed in displaced persons' camps as a military measure until
until such time as they might be returned to their lands of origin.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you told us that from 1947 to 1949 you were
again employed by the United States Government. Will you tell us,
please, in what capacity ?
Mr. Nelson. I was a welfare officer with military government in
Japan.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you stationed in Japan ?
Mr. Nelson. I was stationed at Nagoya, spelled N-a-g-o-y-a.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, the reason for
the termination of your services in Japan ?
Mr. Nelson. Chairman Moulder, in view of the introductory re-
mark which you made to this group on last Monday, wherein you
stated that it was not the intention of this committee to delve into
the relationship between employer and employee, I wonder if you
would ask Mr. Tavenner to kindly withdraw that question.
Mr. Moulder. The request is denied.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. Will you repeat the question, please?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you rend him the question.
( The pending question was read by the reporter. )
Mr. Nelson. I will decline to answer that question on the basis of
the first amendment, supplemented by the fifth amendment of the
United States Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of the termination of your
services in Japan ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Nelson. In response to the question, I would say that, in my
opinion, that question is beyond the area of jurisdiction of this com-
mittee as set up by your function, according to my understanding, and
I respectfully decline to answer on the basis of the first amendment
supplemented by the fifth.
Mr. Scherer". Do you mean we cannot investigate Communist sub-
version even in Allied military government ?
Mr. Nelson. I don't believe there is anything in the record with
regard to that, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. There may be before we get through.
Mr. Tavenner. Were vou released from military service under the
provisions of Public Law 808 as a security risk and returned to the
United States from Japan ?
Mr. Nelson. Mr. Tavenner, I was never in military service. I was
classified 2-B because of tlie essential nature of my work at War Food
Administration.
Mr. Tavenner. You were subject to military authority m Japan,
were vou not ?
3904 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Nelson. I was a civilian employee of the Department of the
Army, military government.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, but you were subject to military authority
while there ?
Mr. Nelson. I was.
Mr. Tavenner. You were? I didn't understand you.
Mr. ScHERER. He said he was ; certainly.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well then. Were you returned to the United
States under the provisions of Public Law 808 from Japan as a se-
curity risk?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
first amendment supplemented by the fifth.
Mr. Scherer. Why were you returned ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
first amendment supplemented by the fifth.
Mr. Scherer. I ask you direct the witness to answer the question,
Mr. Chairman, as to why he was returned.
Mr. Moulder. As requested by Mr. Scherer, the witness is directed
to answer.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer the question on the basis of the
privileges allowed me under the first amendment, supplemented by
the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. Public Law 808 provides that, within 30 days after
removal, any person shall have opportunity personally to appear
before the official designated by the Secretary concerned, and be
fully informed of the reasons for such removal, and to submit, within
30 days thereafter, such statements or affidavits or both as he may
desire to show why he should be retained and not removed.
Did you resort to that remedy provided by Public Law 808 ?
Mr. Nelson. Regardless of in which manner this matter is ap-
proached, I shall continue to decline to answer.
With respect to this specific question, I decline to answer on the
basis of the first amendment supplemented by the fifth.
Mr. Tavenner. Actually, you did not appeal from the decision
removing you, or take any steps to avoid it, did you ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
first amendment supplemented by the fifth.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
any time between 1947 and 1949 ? That was the period you were in
Japan.
Mr. Nelson. In response to that question, Mr. Tavenner, I assert
that the only purpose of your asking that question is to intimidate
me by putting out words such as communism and Communist and
subversive with the idea of causing citizens to refrain from attending
any sort of meetings or joining any sort of organizations for fear that
at some time they may be labeled as subversive or un-American, and,
thereby, causing a person to lose his employment.
I think that that is an unjust question to put to me, and I decline
to answer on the basis of the first amendment supplemented by the
fifth.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3905
Mr. ScHERER. Since you raise the question, I am surprised that
and you have been employed by the Government — true, it is State and
county and city goverimient — since your dismissal from Japan under
the circumstances.
That does interest me.
(The witness confers vs^ith his counsel.)
Mr. Jackson. Do you consider the Communist Party to be an organ-
ization which one should feel free to join and with the membership of
which one should feel free to associate?
Mr. Nelson. Mr. Jackson, in response to that question, I would re-
peat that this committee is out of its jurisdiction in view of the fact
that the Supreme Court has already told you fellows that you may
not investigate where you do not have the right to legislate.
And, since you do not have the right to legislate in the field of asso-
ciations of citizens, I feel that the question is out of order, and I
decline to answer it on the basis of the first amendment supplemented
by the fifth.
Mr. Jackson. Let me say one thing, Mr. Chairman :
If the Congress of the United States, or any of its committees, does
not have the right to legislate with respect to Federal employees, or
to make inquiry into matters concerning Federal employees, past and
present, who are members or have been members of the Communist
Party, then there is certainly something very awry as far as the
investigating power of the Congress is concerned.
This is one area in which there should be absolutely no question as
to the jurisdiction of the Congress.
The Congress would be derelict indeed if it permitted a situation to
go unnoticed in which there were past or present members of the Com-
munist Party employed, especially in light of the action of the Con-
gress of the United States in outlawing the Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. Did I understand, Mr. Nelson, that you are contending
that the Congress of the United States cannot legislate in the field
of military, for instance, in Japan or foreign countries, in the Ameri-
can military ? Do I understand that is your contention, that that is
not in the jurisdiction of the United States Congress?
I so understood. I was quite shocked to hear you say it.
Mr. Nelson. Mr, Chairman, I wonder if you would kindly ask the
man to read my answer back to Mr.
What is the name of the gentleman there ?
Mr. Doyle. You know who I am. I'm Doyle of California.
Mr. Nelson. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. Let's proceed.
Mr. Doyle. No. I want the answer, please, to that. The gentle-
man wanted his answer read. I think it would be good to have it
read.
Mr. Moulder. As requested by the witness and by Congressman
Doyle, will the reporter please read the answer requested.
(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter, as follows :)
In response to that question, I would repeat that this committee is out of its
jurisdiction in view of the fact that the Supreme Court has already told you
fellows that you may not investigate where you do not have the right to legis-
late.
And, since you do not have the right to legislate in the field of associations of
citizens, I feel that the question is out of order, and I decline to answer it on
the basis of the first amendment supplemented by the fifth.
3906 coMMins^iST activities est the los angeles, calif., area
Mr. Doyle. I was wondering if the gentleman cared to answer my
question, if he still contended that the United States Congress did
not have power and jurisdiction to legislate m the field of the American
military wherever it was in the world.
I understood the gentleman to say he was subject to American mili-
tary discipline in Japan.
I am on the Armed Services Committee of Congress, too, and I think
we have the power to legislate regarding the American military wher-
ever it is in the world, Mr. Nelson.
Mr. Nelson. I am of the opinion, Mr. Doyle, that by the mere fact
that you are a civilian employee of the United States Government
you do not lose your civil rights.
I still say that this committee does not have the jurisdiction to probe
into my thoughts or my associations. And I decline to answer that
question on the basis of the first amendment supplemented by the fifth.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to your taking a position in Japan, did you
prepare an application for Government service in which you set forth
your personal history and certain other matters ?
Mr. Nelson. I would presume that I did because it is a general
routine for Federal employment.
Mr. Tavenner. T^et me hand you a photostatic copy of a so-called ap-
plication for employment, and ask you to look at the last page and see
whether or not the signature appearing at the bottom of it, on the
reverse side of that sheet, is your signature ?
Mr. Moulder. Is that the usual Government form ? Has it a num-
ber, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. The number has been covered and I am unable to
see it.
(Document handed to counsel for the witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. It is equivalent to form 57, but I do not believe that
it is exactly form 57.
The sheet which I asked the witness to examine is the back page of the
document on which his name appears.
Will you examine, please, the signature appearing at the bottom of
the last page, and state whether or not it is your signature ?
Mr. Nelson. Mr. Tavemier, my employment history has always been
commented upon by my various employers.
Mr. Tavenner. That is not responsive to my question. The question
simply was whether or not the signature appearing at the end of the
document is your signature.
Mr. Nelson. With respect to this question, I decline to answer on
the basis of the first amendment supplemented by the fifth amendment
of the Constitution.
Mr. Moulder. As I recall the question by counsel, you were first
asked if you signed an appFication for employment. Isn't that cor-
rect?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. And the witness answered "Yes" that lie probably
did, or he assumed that he had signed such application.
Therefore, it is my opinion that you probably have ojiened the door
and waived your right to claim the protection of the first and fifth
amendment.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3907
The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Nelson. In response to the direction to answer the question, I
respectfully decline to do so, based upon the privilege provided me
under the first amendment supplemented by the fifth amendment of
the Constitution.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Nelson, I note on tliis application also, on the
last page, question No. 26 :
Do yon advocate or have you ever advocated, or are you now or have you
ever been a member of any organization tliat advocates the overthrow of the
Government of the United States by force or violence?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Jackson. And in the column where an answer is required there
is an X-mark under "No."
Was that statement a true statement at the time this application
was executed?
Mr. Nelson. The record will show that the witness has not identi-
fied this document. Plowever, with respect to the question, I will state
that at no time have I advocated the overthroAv of the Government
by force and violence.
Mr. Jackson. Now the Supreme Court and the Congress have de-
fined the Communist Party as an organization which does, in fact,
advocate the overthrow of the Government by force and violence.
Have you at any time been a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Nelson. I say again that to toss such a word as Communist and
Communist Party and force and violence, associated with the name of
the witness, is not good.
And I say it is out of line, and I decline to answer on the basis of
the first amendment supplemented by the fifth.
Mr. Jackson. If it is out of line it was entirely out of line, it seems
to me, for you to have signed this statement, or indicated on this
statement — and I am taking it for granted that this is your applica-
tion — for you to have indicated that you were never a member of any
organization that advocated the overthrow of the Government by force
and violence, and now, at this time, decline to state whether you
are a member of the Communist Party which has been officially
designated by jour Goverimient as an organization which does pre-
cisely that.
Mr. Nelson. Is that a comment or a question, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Jackson. No. That was a comment.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Scherer, will you give me the date, please, of
that document?
Mr. Scherer. August 12, 1947, by Thomas W. Nelson. "What is
your middle name, sir ?
Mr. Nelson. My middle name is Walfrid, spelled W-a-1-f-r-i-d.
Mr. Tavenner, On the date indicated were you a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Nelson. The question, as I say again, is an invasion of my rights
under the first amendment, in which a citizen is guaranteed freedom
from inquiry with respect to his beliefs and associations, and I decline
to answer that question on the basis of the first amendment supple-
mented by the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Jackson. You have no right to belong to the Communist Party.
You are speaking in terms that imply that you have a constitutional
3908 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
right to belong to the Communist Party which has been outlawed by
the Government of the United States.
You certainly have no right to belong to what has been judicially
described as an international conspiracy.
You have certain rights under the Bill of Rights, but you have no
right to enter into a conspiracy any more than you have a right to
peddle narcotics. Or more than you have a right to violate any
Federal statute.
This business of rights of individuals to do whatever they see fit
under any circumstances is a little far-fetched.
Mr. Nelson. The record will not show any organizations to which
I may have belonged or any narcotics I may have peddled.
Mr. Jackson. I have no information on the narcotics.
Mr. Tavenner. During the period 194:5 to 1947 when you were
serving the United Nations in Germany were you a member of the
Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. In the United Nations we Americans worked along-
side of our Allies in an attempt to rehabilitate the damage done by
thought control and terroristic measures of the Hitler regime. And
I do not, again, feel that you have any right to infringe upon my
rights under the first amendment, and I decline to answer the question
on the basis of the first amendment supplemented by the fifth amend-
ment of the Constitution.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you consider the Hitler regime any worse or any
better than the Communist regime ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. I have some rather positive opinions about the Hitler
regime, based upon my observations there. I actually talked with
some of the former concentration camp victims.
Mr. Scherer. Have you heard about the concentration camps in
Russia and Siberia, and persecution of the Jews by the Russians and
Communists ?
Mr. Nelson. I actually saw some of the bones of Buchenwald, and
some of the victims who I am sure would agree with Supreme Court
Justice Rutledge when he stated that these folks would certainly have
appreciated the worthwhileness of a fifth amendment in their country
when they were being harassed by their own government.
Mr. Scherer. Now answer my question.
Would you consider the Hitler regime any worse or any better —
that was my question — than the Communist-Stalin regime which now
even the Communists condemn as murderous?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. In my opinion, the reason why this committee brings
out these terms of communism and nazism
Mr. Scherer. You brouglit up nazism.
Mr. Nelson. Is to infer tliat the witness can be tied in with them.
And I would not care to express my opinion on this matter.
Mr. Scherer. Do you deny at this very moment that while you were
working for the United Nations and while you were an em])loyee of
the United States Government, in the allied military govermnent in
Germany, that you were a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Do you deny that ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3909
Mr. Nelson. I think the record will show that question has already
been put and answered.
Mr. ScHERER. Let's answer it again, now. Do you deny it?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. My record has been a dedication to upholding and
defending the rights guaranteed under the American Constitution,
both as a schoolteacher where I taught that the Bill of Rights is some-
thing that should be used every day and not merely honored on the
Fourth of July, and in my work as a social worker where we work
on a democratic basis.
Recognizing every individual as important, and his own dignity:
he has the right to grow without Government oppression. I feel that
my record will stand with anyone's.
Mr. ScHERER. Is that the reason General MacArthur discharged
you and sent you back from Japan as a security risk ?
Mr. Nelson. That matter has already been handled in the record,
has it not, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Scherer. Will you answer the question ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the basis of the
first amendment supplemented by the fifth.
Mr. Scherer. Weren't you sent back as a security risk by this Gov-
ernment ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer the question on the basis of the
first amendment supplemented by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Your first employment by the Government was be-
tween 1941 and 194.5, in the State of Washington, was it not?
Mr. Nelson. You are speaking of the Federal Government now?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
]Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party during
that period of time while in the State of Washington ?
Mr. Nelson. You are approaching the same matter from a different
angle, and I would continue to decline to answer that question on the
basis of the privilege permitted me under the first amendment supple-
mented by the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party during
the period you were teaching school from 1949 to 1951, inclusive?
Mr. Nelson. Mr. Tavenner, I say that a schoolteaclier should not be
subjected by a congressional committee as to his political opinions.
In my viewpoint, a schoolteacher should be judged on the basis of
his competence and his truthfulness in teaching his classes.
Mr. Tavenner. I take it then that you are of the opinion that a
person who is subject to the directives of the Communist Party should
be permitted to teach in our public schools?
Mr. Nelson. Is that a question ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Would you repeat it, please.
jNIr. Tavenner. I take it, from what you have stated, that you are
of the opinion that a person who is subject to the directives of the
Communist Party should be permitted to teach in our public schools.
Is that your view ?
Mr. Nelson. You are asking for my opinion. I shall give it to you.
In my opinion, a sclioolteacher — just as any other employee — should
3910 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
not be responsible to his employer for his political opinions or his
private thoughts.
A schoolteacher, especially, must be free to explore all knowledge
and to expose his students to the facts so that the students themselves
may form their opinions.
Mr. Tavenner. Is a person subject to the directives of the Com-
munist Party free to do those things ?
Mr. Nelson. Still going on my own opinion, I have seen in recent
3'ears statements where teachers have been discharged from their work
after having been employed for sometimes 10, 15, and 20 years. I
must believe that this teacher must have been competent if he was held
on his position through all this length of time.
So I cannot say whether these specific teachers were subject to any-
body directing from outside. But I do say that these teachers who
liave been charged by this committee and similar committees as being
under tlie subjugation of somebody else, I submit that the fact that
they did teach for such a long time and had such very fine records
must be an indication that they were competent to teach and were re-
tained by their administration as good teachers until such time as such
committees as these came around and tried to bring in other factors
rather than academic competence.
Mr. Jackson. That is not necessarily true.
I know of some cases before this committee where teachers were
released, not because of their competency or lack of competency, but
because they lied on official documents.
I think personally that a Communist teacher has got as much right
in close contact with a young mind as a rattlesnake has in a baby's
crib.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party be-
tween 1951 and 1952 when you served as an officer of the State parole
system for the State of California ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. Mr. Tavenner, I was with the State only a brief time,
but even in that short time I was commended by my superior as being
one of the very promising officers.
However, with respect to this particular question, I decline to an-
swer on the basis of the privilege provided to me under the first
amendment supplemented by the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you ever tell your superior who commended you
that you were a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
first amendment supplemented by the fifth amendment.
Mr. SciiERER. When you signed your application form for employ-
ment with the State and were asked the question whether you were
a member of the Communist Party or not, did you disclose that on that
application ?
Mr. Nelson. Do you have the application here, Mr. Tavenner?
I think Mr. Scherer would like to examine it.
Mr. Jackson. Did you sign such an application, to the best of your
khowledge ?
Mr. Nelson. The State of California Personnel Department has
application forms as other public agencies do, and I think it would be
of value to the committee to let them examine it if it is here.
Mr. Jackson. Let me phrase it this way :
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3911
If you were required today to sign such an affidavit would you do
so, stating that you were not a member of tlie Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. The apparent intent of these remarks is to drive home
the inference that this witness has done something that he should not
have done.
Mr. Jackson. It is an attempt to find out from you whether you
are depending upon the fifth amendment in good faith. That is the
only intent. And to also attempt to find out whether or not you were
a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Nei-son. I have sought the Constitution, and I have good faith
in the Constitution and all of the amendments to it.
Mrs. Rosenberg. Pardon me, Mr. Chairman. Is there a question
before this witness?
Mr. Moulder. The last question was would you sign such an appli-
cation today, or affidavit, that you were not a member of the Commu-
nist Party. I believe that is the question propounded by Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. That is the question.
Mr. Moulder. I believe his question was:
If you were signing an application for employment with the State
of California, which provided or asked the question whether or not
you were a member of the Communist Party, would you sign such an
affidavit.
I believe substantially that is the question.
Mr. Jackson, That is substantially it. I want to know whether
or not he would make a statement today on an official form which
was a requisite of employment that he was not a member of the Com-
munist Party.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. You put the question, and the form is not before this
committee, and is a matter of conjecture. And I would decline to
answer.
Mr. Jackson. Is it a matter of conjecture ?
Mr. Nelson. It is not a matter of past history.
Mr. Jackson. Would you sign it ?
If you are, as you say, a good loyal American citizen with nothing
in your background of which to be ashamed, do you feel that you
cannot tell the committee of the Congress whether or not you would
state affirmatively that j'ou were not a member of the Communist
Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. INIr. Jackson, I have been and I am now a good loyal
American citizen.
Mr. Jackson. Are ^''ou a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Nelson. And 1 am not required to answer such question as the
one just now put to me by you, sir.
JNIr. Jackson. I shall put a similar one.
Are you a member of tlie Communist Party toda}' ?
Mr. Nelson. As I told Mr. Tavenner, this matter may be approach-
ed from various angles, but I still say that the Constitution is in effect,
and I decline to answer on tlie basis of the first amendment supple-
mented by the fiftli.
Mr. Ta-\t2nner. 1 have no further questions.
77436 — 56— pt. 10 2
3912 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Doyle, have you a question ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes; I have just a couple.
I think I made a record of the witness' testimony of the agencies in
Government in which he worked, and manifestly he has had a very
rich and varied experience and a very valuable experience.
Mr. Nelson. Thank you, sir. I agree with you.
Mr. ScHERER. I do not think the Government has had, though.
Mr. Doyle. And apparently he is very well informed on the history
of nations and of government, including the history of the Communist
Party. That is very evident.
I notice, Mr. Nelson, that you worked in the State of Washington
in 1941 to 1945 for the Department of Agriculture in relief work. I
am sure you know that in April of 1945 Earl Browder was kicked out
of the American Communist Party.
Shortly thereafter certainly every thinking adult, American citizens,
should have been charged with knowledge that the Communist Party
program in the United States and in the world was a conspiracy, sub-
versively. Certainly for the last several years it has been a matter
of knowledge to you as a schoolteacher and a student of government
that the United States courts and Congress have declared the Com-
munist Party in America to be an international conspiracy based upon
the use, if necessary in their judgment, of force and violence.
( Eepresentative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Doyle. The reason I mentioned that is I know that you know
history perhaps as well as I do or better. But I laiow that is a matter
of history, and so do you.
Very frankly, the thing that amazes me, even recognizing your
rights to plead the jfirst and fifth amendments — which we all certainly
do, if it is done in good faith and honestly — is that you would come
here this morning, and not be in a position where you could honestly
say you are not today a member of the Communist Party.
That is the thing that amazes me.
1 can make allowance for thinking, patriotic American citizens who
joined the Communist Party back in 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, 1945, and
some of them in 1946 before it was known that the Communist Party
was a conspiracy founded upon force and violence.
Mr. Scherer. Before it was generally known.
Mr. Doyle. Before it was generally known.
But you, sir, from your training, knew it ahead of most of us.
From your education and from your statements I can draw certain
deductions based upon my own experience.
And so there came a time, in my book, when you, as a schoolteacher
and a patriotic American citizen, should have withdrawn from the
Communist Party.
By that I am inferring what I know as a matter of practical expe-
rience, that there was a time when you were pretty close to it. You
haven't admitted ever joining it.
I am not inferring it. I realize that under the law there is no
inference to be drawn ; there is no presumption to be drawn.
Mr. Nelson. Thank you, sir. I iim ghid you said that.
Mr. Doyle. We know what the decisions of tlie courts are as well
as you, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3913
Mr. ScHEKER. That doesn't prevent us from relying on other sworn
testimony, however, in arriving at a conclusion of this man's member-
ship in the party.
Mr. Doyle. No.
Mr. ScHERER. There is no question about it, Mr. Doyle. You don't
have to have an inference
Mr. DoixE. The thing that amazes me is that you, as a schoolteacher
in the State of California, a State official and former Government
official of the United States Government in foreign countries as well
as in this country, have not as yet put yourself in the position where
you could frankly say to the United States Congress — about which
you have been teaching schoolchildren — it might have been some of
my children, which makes me shiver to think of it — "Yes, I was a
member of the Communist Party" if you were "back in 1942 until
1946 even, but I got my fill and I got out."
That is the thing that amazes me, Mr. Nelson, that a man with your
background isn't able to say this morning, "No, I am not a member of
the party."
You may think that is an invasion by us to make that inquiry.
Mr. Nelson. I do; yes.
Mr. DoYLE. I see you do. That is what amazes me, to be frank
with you, because I used to be a member of the California State Board
of Education, and I know some of the problems we had.
One more statement, Mr. Chairman. And may I make this ob-
servation
Mr. Nelson. May I express my amazement also, Mr. Moulder?
I am really amazed at the activities of this committee.
Mr. Moulder. I can understand the temptation on the part of the
witness to reply to a lecture.
Each member has a right to conduct himself as he pleases. I do
the best I can to keep order and an orderly procedure.
Mrs. Rosenberg. May I respectfully request that the witness be
permitted to answer an argument that was put to him.
Mr. Doyle. I am not arguing, Madam Attorney. I am making a
statement of my position.
Mrs. Rosenberg. I wish this witness would have a like privilege.
I respectfully urge that you give him the privilege that your col-
leagues have been given all morning.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Doyle will proceed.
Mr. Doyle. I just wish this witness would understand my position
as a mere Congressman.
I recognize your right and every American citizen's right to think
what he pleases and to preach what he pleases and to write what he
pleases and to live the way he pleases. But he has to do it within
the four corners of the Constitution of the United States.
And I don't recognize your right, nor the right of any other Ameri-
can citizen to continue to be a member of any organization or any
association that has been declared a conspiracy by the Congress of
the United States, because that makes it illegal.
So I say to you, sir, as one American to another, I do not recognize
your right to come before any group of United States Congressmen,
lawfully on an investigation, and claim it is your right — if you want
to claim it — to still be a member, if you ever have been, of a con-
spiracy that has been declared illegal by the Congi*ess of the United
3914 COMMUNIST ACTR^ITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
States. And I liope you will f^et into a position where you do not
disagree with me, at least on that one point.
Mr. Moulder. I must say, of course, that we will agree that you
have the right to claim the privilege, as Mr. Doyle says, and decline to
answer under the provisions of the Constitution.
But I think his point is that he is criticizing your decision and
judgment in so proceeding.
Mrs. Rosenberg. '\A^iich he has no right to do, Mr. Chairman, may
I say for the record.
And he has no right to draw inferences, which he has consistently
drawn.
Mr. Moulder. All right. Now what do you have to say ?
Mr. Nelson. I would certainly like to express my amazement also,
Mr. Doyle.
Only a few days ago I was sitting in this room when I heard the
Congressman speak of some of the eminent citizens of this community
as rats and mice.
Mr. Doyle. No; I didn't. I deny it. You heard nothing of the
kind.
Mr. Nelson. I heard it.
And I must say that if Mr. Doyle fancies himself as a political
pied piper who is going to take the mice out of the city of Hamlin,
constitutional liberties, he had better take a second look.
I do not accept the inferences that have been made that because a
citizen, in his own protection, from having observed how this com-
mittee operates, answers the questions on the basis of the first amend-
ment and the fifth amendment, that any inference unfair to him should
be drawn.
The Supreme Court has spoken on that, and I think that should be
enough to silence this sort of activity.
And I hope that my opportunitj^ of being here today can help to
hasten the day when this committee will no longer be in existence.
Mr. Moulder. If the officer can identifv^ any person responsible
for that demonstration, they will be removed from the hearing room.
Mrs. Eosenberg. Is there a question before the witness, Mr. Chair-
man ? Is there a question before the witness ?
Mr. Moulder. There is no question pending.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer, do you have any additional questions?
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mrs. Rosenberg. Is the witness excused ?
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Tlie witness is excused.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Arthur Globe.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your light hand and be sworn.
Do you solennily swear that the testimony which yo\i are about to
give, before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Globe. I do.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3915
TESTIMONY OE ARTHUR GLOBE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ESTHER SHANDLER
Mr. Globe. I would like to request the committee to keep these
photographers away from me, if you don't mind.
Mr. Jackson. I object, Mr. Chairman.
The press has every right to operate. It is one of the freedoms con-
tained in the famous Bill of Eights, upon which the witnesses pro-
pound at length.
Mr. Tavenner. "VVliat is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Globe. Arthur Globe.
Mr. Tavexner. Will counsel accompanying the w^itness please iden-
tify herself for the record.
Mrs. Shandler. Esther Shandler.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Globe?
Mr. Globe. Chicago, 111.
Mr. Tavenner. When ?
Mr. Globe. February 26, 1918.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Globe. In Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. Plow long have you lived in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Globe. Something over 30 years.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been.
Mr. Globe. I took a bachelor of arts degree at the University of
California in Los Angeles, in 1942, and, after my Army service of 40
months, I returned to the LTniversity of Southern California, in gradu-
ate work, and completed 65 units in clinical psychology.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the period of your military service?
Mr. Globe. From September of 1942 until January of 1946.
Mr. Ta\"enner. Was your additional graduate training after you
returned from the service ?
Mr. Globe. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you again state what that was ?
Mr. Globe. Three to four years of study in the field of clinical psy-
chology and related fields.
Mr. Tavenner. You completed your course of formal training then
about what date ?
Mr. Globe. I didn't quite complete my formal training. I took the
course work.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the approximate date when you finished
your formal training ?
Mr. Globe. It extended over a period of approximately 4 to 4^/^
years.
Mr. Tavenner. At what time was that work terminated? I have
asked that three times now.
Mr. Globe. You asked the actual day, hour, and minute?
Mr. Tavenner. No, I didn't ask that.
Mr. Globe. I can give it to you as the best of my recollection : From
1946 to 1950 approximately.
Mr. Tavenner. That is the first time you have done that. "^Vliat has
been your profession since that time ?
Mr. Globe. My profession has been that of a psychologist and that
of a social worker, both areas concerned with mental health.
3916 COMMUNIST activities m the los angeles, calef., area
Mr. Tavenner. How have you been employed in your work as a
social worker?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Globe. Would you be more specific, please ?
Mr. Tavenner. What has been your employment as a social worker
since 1950 ?
Mr. Globe. I find the questioning as to my employment a little
difficult to accept under the circumstances. I can't quite see how my
employment, my employment experience, present or past, can be the
concern of the committee.
I do my work and I do it as well as I can, and that is the situation.
I don't understand the line of your questioning, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer Mr. Tavenner's question with reference to his employment.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Jackson. It is a matter of proper identification.
Mr. Moulder. At the request of members of the committee, the
witness is directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Globe. I have been employed as a social worker, or at least in
social agencies twice. The present employment is that of a social
worker, and the past employment was also. In 1950 I worked as a
social worker in a social agency.
Mr. Tavenner. Where?
Mr. Globe. In Los Angeles.
Mr. ScHERER. By whom are you presently employed ?
Mr. Globe. By the County of Los Angeles.
Mr. Scherer. As a social worker ?
Mr. Globe. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you attend school between 1946 and
1950?
Mr. Globe. I answered that question already.
Mr. Tavenner. You said you attended school, but you didn't state
where, according to my recollection.
Mr. Globe. University of Southern California.
Mr. Tavenner. That was the period that you were taking graduate
work, I believe. Is that correct?
Mr. Globe. That is correct.
Mr. TA^^!:NNER. Were you familiar with an organization in that
school composed largely of graduate students known as the John Reed
Club of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Globe. My familiarity or lack of familiarity with any organi-
zation that might exist in the country today is entirely my own busi-
ness, and termed under the Constitution of the Unite(] States.
This is a matter of personal knowledge. I don't think that this
committee has any riglit to inquire into my personal knowledge in
this or any other respect since they cannot legislate what I do nor
what I do not know, or what I intend to know.
Mr, SciiERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer tlie
question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Globe, Finding the question completely out of line as far as
miy rights as a citizen are concerned, I refuse to answer this question
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3917
under the j&rst and fifth amendments of the Constitution of the United
States.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the John Reed Club of the
Commmiist Party while in attendance at the university ?
Mr. Globe. This question is even more objectionable than the first
one for the same reasons I previously stated, and I object to it, and I
refuse to answer on the same pounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with any of the activities of
a group of the Communist Party known as the John Reed Club.
Mr. Globe. I refuse to answer on the same srrounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you observe Communist Party activities since
1950 of any persons known to you to be members of the John Reed
Club of the Communist Party while you were at the university ?
Mr. Globe. I feel, Mr. Tavenner, if you want information about
names, people, and anything else that you might be concerned with,
I suggest that you get one of your trained seals up here and ask them.
I refuse to answer this.
Anyone or any associations I may have had in the past or expect
to have in the future are entirely my own.
I refuse to answer this question, as it is an invasion of my rights,
invasion of the rights of all the American citizens.
I refuse to answer on the basis of the first and fifth amendments,
both.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Globe. I refuse to answer this question, as previously stated,
for previous reasons, and on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. DoYXiE. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Did this witness say he served in the Armed Forces
of the United States ?
Mr. Globe. I certainly did.
Mr. Scherer. While you were a member of the Armed Forces of the
United States, Witness, were you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Globe. I refuse to answer. First and fifth amendments. You
have no right to ask.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. I have one question.
Do you have any knowledge or information of subversive or com-
munistic activities of any person ^
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. It is not funny. Witness, at all.
Mr. Globe. It is a rather difficult question to answer, since it con-
tains so many elements that are implied and have not been established
since I have been on the stand.
As far as I am concerned, these implications have not been estab-
lished in the country at all. The whole idea
Mr. Scherer. You say there has been no establishment in this coun-
try of subversive activities when our atomic secrets were stolen and
3918 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
now rest in the archives of the Kremlin because of subversives in
Government ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Globe. I would be glad to discuss this or any other question
you might ask me
Mr. SciiERER. When you are not under oath.
Mr. Globe. When I am not on the stand under the circumstances
of this committee ; where T would be glad to discuss it under oath if
you, too, were under oath, sir.
Under the circumstances I feel that I am, since I am a target for
what seems to be and has been proved to be quite unprincipled attacks
that are aimed at maligning and destroying a person's working ability,
I refuse to answer this question on the same grounds as previously.
Mr. Moulder. Is that all.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
The committee will stand in recess for a period of 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken, Representatives Moulder,
Dojde, Jackson and Scherer being present.)
(The committee was reconvened upon the expiration of the recess;
present: Representatives Moulder, Doyle, and Jackson.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Call your next witness, please, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Don Ghristlieb.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Ghristlieb. I do.
Mr. Moulder. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OP DON GHRISTLIEB
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Ghristlieb. Don Ghristlieb.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name, please ?
Mr. Ghristlieb. That is G-h-r-i-s-t-1-i-e-b.
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Tavenner. It is the practice of the committee to advise all wit-
nesses who appear before it that they have the right to have counsel
with them if they desire it.
Mr. Ghristlieb. I understand.
Mr. Tavenner. And the right to confer with counsel at any time
during the period of their questioning.
When and where were you born, Mr. Ghristlieb ?
Mr. Ghristlieb. I was born in Fullerton, Galif ., October 10, 1912.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliere do you now reside?
Mr. Ghristlieb. In Los Angeles, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession or occupation ?
Mr. Ghristlieb. Musician, instrumentalist.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been professionally engaged as
an instrumentalist?
Mr. Ghristlieb. Since 193G.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3919
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Christlieb. I attended the public schools in Los Angeles
through Los Angeles Junior College.
Mr. Tavenner. What has been your employment record since com-
pletion of your school ^
Mr. Christlieb. Since 1937 I have been employed as a musician in
studio recording orchestras, and I have worked in every studio at
one time or other.
Mr. Ta"\tenner. Was your employment interrupted by military
service ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes. In 1934 — 1935 I enlisted for -2 years and 2
months in the Army, and I have an honorable discharge.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell tlie connnittee, please, whether or not
as a musician you were requested to affiliate with the Communist
Party?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become affiliated ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, I did. In, I think — before Peai-l Harbor,
in 1941.
Mr. Tavenner. IIovt long did you remain in the Commnnist Party ?
Mr. Christlieb. As nearlv as I can determine it was about the end
of 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. You have not been a member of the Comnnniist
Party since that time ?
Mr. Christlieb. No, I have not, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, the ciivmn-
stances of your affiliation with the Communist Party in the first ])lace?
Mr. Christlieb. I believe that I hoped for a form of society which
could avoid the extremes of depression and Avar, and I think that
the threat of fascism at that time involving the world was a period
of cynicism and pessimism in late 1939 and the late 1940's. And I be-
lieve while many people were window-shop))ing for socialism here,
I went in and made a purchase of merchandise I considered unre-
turnable and too hot to handle, and I have been returning small pieces
painfully year after year, and I hope I can return a small piece today
that is left.
Mr. Tavenner. Just how were you recruited in(o the Conununist
Party? Would you tell us that?
Mr. Christlieb. I think that it is a very individualistic thing with
musicians, in the Musicians Branch. It is one of the few times when
party work is such, musicians' work in the branch is such, that the
individual personality and ingenuity and training and talent is given
full play, and it is usually made by contact of an individual seeking
to recruit a person they may consider eligible. That pei-son is usually
asked to read at that time the Daily People's World and many articles
of that sort, which I was, too.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you describing now what happened in your
own case ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, and I believe similar cases around me.
And I think that after reading of such articles and so forth, we
were approached by members that were in the party and asked how
we felt about what we were reading, and so forth, and if we would
care to attend Marxist classes.
3920 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend Marxist classes ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, I did, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. For how long a period of time ?
Mr. Christlieb. I only attended about four sessions, as such.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall any teachers of those sessions?
Mr. Christlieb. No, I do not. I could only guess that it was some-
one sent from the section. I don't believe I ever saw him after that.
Mr. Tavenner. By "section," do you mean a section of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Christlieb, That is right. I think it was called the North-
west Section, under which the branches, the musicians particular
branch came.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you tell the committee, please, just what
happened when you completed that course of study ?
Mr. Christlieb, Yes.
After the completion of the four sessions I was asked if I still
wished to join the party, and if I did — which I did— the branch would
then meet and vote on my acceptance, which they did. And that was
all the formality needed to attend the first meeting of the branch as
such.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the person b}" whom you were recruited?
Mr. Christlieb. Mischa Altman.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where Mischa Altman is now ?
Mr. Christlieb. I believe he is in Europe at the present time — I
think France.
Mr. Tavenner. Were there other persons who had taken this course
with you, or this reading, this study course ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, there were.
Mr. Tavenner. And who were also recruited ijito the Communist
Party at that time ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall their names ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes. There were Haakon Berg
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell both names?
Mr. Christlieb. H-a-a-k-o-n B-e-r-g.
Mr. Tavenner. He had taken this study course with you and went
into the Communist Party with you ?
Mr. Christlieb. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether he withdrew from the Com-
munist Party before you did ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes. I think that he went into defense work and
then into the Army quite soon afterward.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall the other persons from your study
group who went into the Communist Party with you ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes. There were George Pepper
Mr. Tavenner. Was George Pepper a musician ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Are there any others that you recall 2
Mr. Christlieb. There were their wives also.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you remember the name of the wife of George
Pepper ?
Mr. Christlieb. It was Joy. And with Mr. Berg it was Ann.
Mr. Tavenner. After you were taken into the Communist Party
were you assigned to an organized group ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3921
Mr. Christlieb. That particular branch was, I believe, called
branch O.
Mr. Tavenister. Branch O. Was that the musicians' branch?
Mr. Christlieb. Correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you remain a member of that same branch dur-
ing your entire membership in the Communist Party or were you at
any time transferred to another group?
Mr. Christlieb. I never knew it to be under any other title, in my
experience.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, how frequently
this group of the Communist Party met?
Mr. Christlieb. I think, the average of once every 2 weeks, al-
though a few members, I think, met on the oif weeks to continue their
study.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you tell the committee more about the plan
of study of the Communist Party as you found it after you became
a member?
Mr. Christlieb. That was usually handled by a person called the
literature director. And we studied such volumes as the History of
the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, and portions of the text
on Karl Marx by Marion and portions of a volume called Dialectical
and Historical Materialism by Guest, and also many pamphlets, the
most prominent of which was, I believe, Political Action. I believe the
text came once a month on the practical application of Marxism. Po-
litical Action is the name of the magazine.
Mr. Tavenner. Over how long a period of time did you continue
your Marxist studies?
Mr. Christlieb. I would guess 1 year.
Mr. TA^TNNER. Did functionaries of the Communist Party on a
higher level come into your meetings at any time for the purpose of
conducting educationals ?
Mr. Christlieb. In this case it was mostly the senior member in
the branch. I refer specifically to Mischa Altman.
Mr. Tavenner. You refer to the literature director of your group
as playing an important part in the educational phase of your work.
Wlio was the literature director ?
Mr. Christlieb. I can't recall at the moment, because those oflEicers
did rotate quite frequently, and sooner or later most everyone occu-
pied that chair.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Who were the persons you considered to be the lead-
ers of this group of the Communist Party from their activities?
Mr. Christlieb. I think it was pretty well shared by Mischa Alt-
man and Sam Albert.
Mr. Ta^t.nner. How many persons composed this group at any
one time ? Wliat do you think was the maximum number ?
Mr. Christi-ieb. The number in attendance seemed to be 20 when
well attended, perhaps less most other times.
Mr. Taat3Nner. Can you give the committee a fairly correct idea
of the number of persons who were membei-s of branch O of the
Communist Party during your membership in it ?
Mr. Chrisilieb. I think possibly a little later when the branch it-
self discussed it that they placed the number at about 60 or 65. That
refers to the coming ancl going, members moving in and out of the
Los Angeles area, or transfers from out of town.
3922 coiviMtnsriST actfv'ities in the los angeles, calif., area
Mr. Tavenner. What was the chief objective of this Communist
Party organization at the time when you first became a member of it?
Mr. Christlieb. The musicians, of course, would be, as with many
branches, as closely related to its trade union as possible, and ours
was, of course, with Musicians Local 47, A. F. of M. Other objectives,
of course, were to grow, recruit, and so forth.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I would like to place the location of
branch O. In what general section of the city was that ?
Mr. Christlieb. Generally in the Hollywood area.
Mr. Jackson. In the homes of various members ?
Mr. Christlieb, Right.
Mr, Tavenner. You say you met in the homes of the members?
Mr. Chrisi'Lieb. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner, Can you recall at this time the names of the mem-
bers in whose homes you met ?
Mr, Christlieb, Yes, I can. It would be Mischa Altman, Sam
Albert, Haakon Berg, George Pepper, Carroll Hollister
Mr, Ta\tenner, Would you spell the first and last names?
Mr, Christlieb, C-a-r-r-o-1-1 H-o-l-l-i-s-t-e-r,
At the home of Joe DiFiore,
Mr. TA^^NNER. Will you spell the last name ?
Mr. Christlieb. D-i F-i-o-r-e. And my home.
Mr. Tavenner. In these various courses of training given within
the Communist Party club itself, did you ever study American his-
tory ?
Mr. Christlieb. I believe the only text — and I don't believe that
was participated in by the brancli in general — was a history of the
American labor movement. I believe it was Anthony Bimba,
Mr. Tavenner. Were you active in connection with the establish-
ment of the Musicians Congress?
Mr. Christlh^b. Not in the outset, if you mean establishment or
origin. But I think soon afterward, after the large initial meeting
or congress was held on the UCLA campus I did join and tried tO'
participate.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any position at any time in the Mu-
sicians Congress?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes. For about 2 months I was on the board.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat activity did you observe within the Commu-
nist Party in connection with the Musicians Congress?
Mr. Christlieb. I think about the time I entered the congress as
such, it was my experience to see the Communist Party in the midst
of tremendous disagreement and quarrel, each accusing the other side
of being opportunists, which was the party's way in using the organ-
ization for their own personal benefit.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee as fully as you can your
experience with the Musicians Congress. To what extent its offices
were infiltrated by members of the Communist Party, and what the
Communist Party was trying to do with it ?
Mr. Christlieb. I think M^hen it started at UCLA, and perhaps on
some of the litei'ature concerning its origin, it had as its object building
morale in peacetime and it had a. considei'able amount of just straight
musical events. That meant a rather broad participation, making it
possible for musicians in all fields to enter into it as well as members
of the party, which by the sheer number of meetings and so forth,
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3923
could be used by Communist Party individuals for individual
recruiting.
Mr. Tavexner. Were you a member of its executive board ?
]\Ii\ Christlieb. Yes.
I had submitted a small paper on the problems of instrumentalists
and the particular instrument I play, and I believe it was at the
recommendation of the secretary of the Musicians Congress that I
was asked to be a member of the board.
Mr. Tavexner. I have before me a letterhead of the Musicians Con-
gress, November 23, 1945, which I ask be marked for identification
purposes only, as "Christlieb Exhibit No. 1," and to be retained in
the files of the committee.
An examination of the letterhead shows that at that time there
were 23 persons on the executive board and that you were one of them.
Will you examine that list, please, and give us the names of those
on it whom you can identify from your own personal knowledge to
have been members of the Communist Party at that time.
Mr. Christlieb. I see organizational secretary, Mischa Altman;
financial secretary, Leonard Selic.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the spelling of that last name ?
Mr. Christlieb. S-e-1-i-c.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you know him to be a member of the Com-
nmnist Party ?
Mr. Christlieb. I met with him formally at meetings in our various
homes.
Mr. Jackson. Meetings closed to all except members of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Christlieb. Closed meetings ; correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you proceed, please ?
Mr. Christlieb. Joe DiFiore, Carroll Hollister
Mr. Tavenner. Is the latter individual the same individual to whom
you referred a few moments ago ?
Mr. Christlieb. That is correct ; and Tamara Hovey.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the name ?
Mr. Christlieb. H-o-v-e-y.
Mr. Tavenner. The first name?
Mr. Christlieb. T-a-m-a-r-a.
The next name is Earl Robinson.
Mr. Taat:nner. R-o-b-i-n-s-o-n.
Mr. Christlieb. Correct.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you know him to be a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Christlieb. Also meeting in private homes in closed meetings.
George Sandell.
And that is all I see here.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. You have not identified a person by the name of Leon
Becker. Do you see his name?
Mr. Christlieb. I see his name, sir, but I didn't meet him formally
at any meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. I wish to tell the committee that he has been identi-
fied in public testimony as a member of the Communist Party, and our
information is that he is now a Canadian citizen, is in England and
has renounced his United States citizenship.
Do you see the name of Jay Gorney ?
3924 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. CiTRiSTLiEB. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. He has been identified in other public testimony.
Mr. Christlieb. But never in the Musicians Branch that I was in.
Mr. Tavexner. David Kaksin. Do you see his name as one of those ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, but the same applies there. He never met with
the instrumentalists' branch.
Mr. Tavenner. David Raksin has appeared before this committee
formally and admitted former Communist Party membership.
Do you see there the name of Wachsman, W-a-c-h-s-m-a-n?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes; I do.
Mr. Tavenner. What is his first name ?
Mr. Christlieb. Bob, I see here. But the same thing holds there
also.
Mr. Tavenner. Robert Wachsman has appeared, Mr. Chairman,
before this committee and refused to answer any material questions
relying upon the fifth amendment.
In what way did the Communist Party participate, if any, in the
decisions that were arrived at by the executive board of this organi-
zation ?
Mr. Christlieb. It was my experience, as I said before, to find this
organization in the midst of a tremendous quarrel, and from that time
on nothing constructive was ever arrived at. I think I saw actually
the destruction of the Musicians Congress because of these quarrels.
Mr. Tavenner. Were those quarrels within the Communist Party
or within the Musicians Congress, or in what way were they related ?
Mr. Christlieb. It was in the branch as well as in the congress it-
self. Of course, the language and the phraseology used in the congress
itself had to be tempered because there were many who were not mem-
bers of the party. But this, I say, made very little sense to people
outside of the party.
And if I may say here, at the time the chairman of this organization
was not, certainly not a member of the party. And I think I should
say something in his behalf. I know that he was devoted to music
and wanted only to be identified with the making of music. And he
used to complain to me considerably about the fact that Mischa Alt-
man would want to talk doctrine with him. And his answer was al-
ways, "If we can make music together, let's make music, and I will
meet with you on that basis." And I think it was with this simple
principle alone, and nothing else, he stayed with the organization until
its end out of respect to the many people that were not members of
the Communist Party, and should be complimented for it. He prob-
ably has suflPered some abuse for this, but I think he should be com-
mended. Because with about the only weapon being music he was
able to frustrate the aims of the party, and certainly cause Mr. Mischa
Altman perhaps one of the greatest of frustrations I have ever seen
in an individual because he actually wanted to capture the mind of
Lawrence Morton, and he couldn't do this.
Mr. Do^T.E. Who was that chairman ?
Mr. Christlieb. Lawrence Morton.
Mr. Tavenner. So that the Communist Party had something in
mind other than the matter of promoting music for music's sake; is
that what you are telling us ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3925
Mr. Tavenner. I wish you would describe that situation more fully
to the committee, giving as full an understanding of it as you can.
Tell the whole story, what it was about, and what occurred.
Mr. Christlieb. I can only say that if this had been a success that
they had planned for it, it would have been a tremendous feather in
the cap of the Communist Party members, and it would have been a
tremendous asset to their recruiting program.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you think it was largely due to the position taken
by this one man, the chairman of the group, that they were not
successful ?
Mr. Christlieb. I certainly do. I think that is the greatest lesson
that could be learned from a man, that a single individual could take
that stand and be that successful.
Mr. Tavenner. ^Vhen the Communist Party was unable to influence
the chairman of that organization, what did they do ? What was the
result of the situation ?
Did they go along with the organization or did they take a course of
action which brought about its destruction ?
Mr. Christlieb, Some of them retired from the committee formally,
as I did, but the quarrel went on up into the section.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. The section of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Christlieb. That is right, through the branch, through the
branch itself and the section where the same charges were leveled at
each other and referees were appointed, more like a kangaroo court.
No decision was ever handed down, however.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us more in detail about it. I don't understand
how this issue in the Musicians Congress finally found its way to the
section group, which was a higher level than your own group of the
Communist Party.
( Representative Morgan M. Moulder left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Christlieb. Since there were so many people, as you know,
from the branch involved, their time must have accounted for some-
thing. The considerable length of time that the members did spend
in the congress, they should have gotten some results. And there were
none forthcoming. Certainly the section is going to ask why not. It
M'as a stalemate, and for a long period of time.
Mr. DoYi^E (presiding). In other words, the efforts of the Commu-
nist Party members within the Musicians Congress were to control
the Musicians Congress with the doctrine of the Communist Party
instead of for music's sake. And that effort by the Communist Party
cell in the Musicians Congress failed to such an extent that their fail-
ure was carried on up into the higher level of the Communist Party
control ?
Mr. Christlieb. That is correct.
Mr. DoYLE. In other words, they were held for an accounting by a
higher level in the Communist Part}', and that is right here in Los
Angeles ?
Mr. Christlieb. Correct.
Mr. Doyle. What year?
Mr. Christlieb. I believe the congress started in 1944, but I believe
this was in 1945, the latter period of 1945, because I know by the first
part of 1946 they had had it dissolved.
3926 COJVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. Do you think that dissolution was due to this conflict
and failure upon the part of the Communists to succeed with the
congress ?
Mr. Christlieb. It certainly was with me, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. It was with you. In other words, the Communists
could not control it so they destroyed it ?
Mr. Christlieb. It had that effect.
Mr. Doyle. I would think that the record should show, based upon
the testimony of this witness, that tlie musicians' group in Los An-
geles is entitled to a compliment from this committee in resisting the
subversive activities of the Communist cell within the musicians' group
as related by you, ]\Ir. Christlieb.
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jackson. The role to be played, as I understand it, by the
Communist branch was to obtain control of the Musicians Congress.
Now, what contribution, after having obtained control of the congress,
or what was your concept of the contribution that could be made by
this Communist-controlled congress to the work of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Christlieb. I wish I could point to a single bit of evidence, but
I can't.
Mr. Jackson. There was no specific goal that you knew of?
Mr. Christlieb. I think the greatest principles of the congress were
set down at its formation when it held tlie congress at UCLA on the
campus, and it held such promise that afterwards it could continue,
but it clid not,
Mr. Jackson. Aside from the political aspect of this branch of the
Communist Party, were there discussions among the musicians as to
what contribution they could make as a group toward assisting the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Christlieb. You mean within the party itself ?
Mr. Jackson. Yes; within the branch.
Mr. Christlieb. Actually, the quarrel divided the party itself into
small groups that caucused among themselves, and I never sat in on
one of those so I am not able to tell. I know that they did meet with
the idea concerning what you have asked, but I was not a part of that.
Mr. Jackson. What I am trying to arrive at was where were these
groups of Communist musicians going, if anywhere? What was the
ultimate goal they were seeking to achieve? Or was this simply a
facet of the overall drive to capture an entire industry? It is still
not quite clear to me just exactly what the ultimate goal was in terms
of the Communist Party.
Mr. Christlieb. I see.
Mr. ScHERER. Membership? Dues?
Mr. Jackson. Yes, aside from the obvioiis thing, such as the contri-
bution which could be made financially, and culturally. We have the
picture of the Soviet cultui-al arts. Was the intent to bring about
in the United States such a siutation as was described here several
days ago by another witness?
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Christlieb. Certainly prestige, of course. But then also, I
think, one of the main objectives, too, Avas the establishment of a cul-
tural musicians position in the Cabinet.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3927
Mr. Jackson. Did the discussions among the musicians in this
branch go to the point that music should be of such a nature to carry
a message, and shoukl it be of the
Mr. ScHERER, Wasn't that the next step ? Didn't they have to get
a strong organization first, Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. That is what I am tiying to determine.
Mr. ScHERER. They didn't get that far so they couldn't advocate
the next step.
Mr. Christlieb. That is my interpretation of it.
Mr. ScHERER, That is his interpretation of it.
Mr. Jacksox. I have never been inside the door of a branch meeting,
and I daresay I would never be able to get in one. But as between
musicians there must have been some discussion of what contribution
musicians, as such, could make to the Communist Party.
Mr. Christlieb. That is undoubtedly true. But, as I said before,
I didn't come into it in time to enter into these discussions. I just
saw the destructive part of it.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Mischa Altman play any part in this contro-
versy that arose?
Mr. Christlieb. I believe he did, judging from the attitude of the
chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us more definitely what Mischa Alt-
man was endeavoring to accomplish which became the subject of the
Musicians Congress ?
Mr. Christlieb. I can't say specifically with regard to the congress,
but I never knew Mischa Altman to not engage in some Marxist
analysis of every situation, beginning with the handshake to the final
goodby, so I knew it must have taken place here.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you define this controversy a little more clearly,
the one that was taken to the section level of the Communist Party ?
Wliat was that dispute which was presented to the section?
Mr. Christlieb. It seemed to me it was purely selfish motives. It
was divided into perhaps two groups who were vying for the leader-
ship as such, that is, the Communist leadership as such. And it
seemed on a very personal level, to me, at all times.
Mr. Tavenner. How was that connected with the Musicians Con-
gress ?
Mr. Christlieb. It didn't very well.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean tliis fight for leadership?
Mr. Christlieb. This fight for leadership created considerable
vacuum in the congress as such. It is one of the reasons it died.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand you to say that there was a commission
appointed on the section level to pass upon these matters.
Mr. Scherer. He said they had a kangaroo court.
Mr. Tavenner. Maybe it was a kangaroo court.
Mr. Scherer. Where they were not allowed to plead the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall who sat on that court or commission?
Mr. Christlieb. It was at the home of a lady, I think, Clarion
Brooks. The others, other names there, I do not recall from the sec-
tion as such.
Mr. Ta^t:nner. Were you there?
Mr. Christlieb. I was there.
77436 — 56— pt. 10 3
3928 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Doyle. May I interrogate the witness with one question ?
In view of Mr. Scherer's observation a moment ago that he under-
stood from your testimony that in these kangaroo courts there was
no plea of the constitutional privilege. Is that correct?
Mr. Christlieb. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. You mean that within the Communist Party proce-
dures where they were undertaking to correct or punish a witness
was deprived of his constitutional rights to plead his constitutional
privilege ?
Mr. ScHERER. He had to answer or else. That has been the testi-
mony all along about these things.
Mr. Christlieb. Actually, both sides submitted their testimony in
writing, writings which were destroyed immediately afterwards, and
no decision was ever handed down, to my knowledge.
Mr. Doyle. Of course, I know the record will show that we have
never had in my time of years on the committee, testimony under oath
in any case where the Communist Party ever recognized the consti-
tutional privilege of a member to plead any provision of the United
States Constitution. In other words, the testimony universally in
the United States before congressional committees is the Communist
Party in its own procedures denies the right of an American citizen
to plead any provision of the United States Constitution. And if
I did not make it clear before my observation I want to say again
that I want to compliment the rank and file of the musicians in Los
Angeles who have resisted, and still resist, the efforts of the Com-
munist Party in the Los Angeles area to take over and infiltrate and
control the musical activities of the professional musicians for the
sake of Communist Party doctrine instead of music for music's sake.
Mr. Moulder. Are you ready, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. How long was it after this disagreement which
broke up the Musicians Congress that you left the Communist Party ?
Mr. Christlieb. I would say within the year, because the congress
did fold the first of 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. You have given us the names of the persons who
were instrumental in getting you into the Communist Party and the
names of the persons in whose homes the Communist Party met.
Will you at this time give us all the names you can recall of the per-
sons who were members of the Communist Party between 1941 and
1946?
Before giving us those names, I want to state that in any case in
which there is any doubt in your mind we do not want to hear that
name. We want you to confine your testimony only to those whom
you can positively identify in your own mind as members of the Com-
munist Party at some time during that period.
Mr. Christlieb. All right.
Joseph Di Fiore.
Mr. Tavenner. You may omit those you have already identified.
Mr, Moulder. What was tliat name?
Ml-. Christlieb. That was Di Fiore. I mentioned him before.
Mr. Tavenner. You already identified him.
Mr. Christlieb. Lina Di Fiore, L-i-n-a.
Mr. Tavenner. What relation to Joseph?
Mr. Christlieb. Wife.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3929
Morris Browda.
Mr. Tavexner. Spell the name, please.
Mr. Christlieb. B-r-o-w-d-a.
Mr. Tavenner. How is the first name spelled ?
Mr. Christlieb. M-o-r-r-i-s.
Helen Colis, C-o-l-i-s.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the first name ?
Mr. Christlieb. H-e-1-e-n. And James Colis, her husband. Kubin
Decker.
Mr. Tavenner. His name has been mentioned.
Mr. Christlieb. Joe Eger.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the name, please ?
Mr. Christlieb. E-g-e-r.
Mr. Ta\^nner. How did you know him to be a member?
Mr, Christlieb. Meeting formally at homes.
Milton Feher.
Mr. Tavenner. Spell the name, please ?
Mr. Christlieb. F-e-h-e-r. First name M-i-1-t-o-n.
Sam Fordis, F-o-r-d-i-s.
Katherine Glasser, G-1-a-s-s-e-r. and Albert Glasser.
Mr. Tavenner. They testified here yesterday.
Philip Goldberg. Victor Gottlieb.
Mr. Christlieb. Eudice Shapiro
Mr. Tavenner. Eudice Shapiro Gottlieb also appeared here as a
witness.
Mr. Christlieb. Norman Granz.
Mr. Tavenner. Spell it.
Mr. Christlieb. G-r-a-n-z. First name N-o-r-m-a-n.
Mr. Tavenner. The last letter was "z" ?
Mr. Christlieb. Z, correct.
Sid Greene, G-r-e-e-n-e.
Mr. Tavenner. He also appeared.
Mr. Sciierer. He appeared as a witness and refused to testify.
Mr. Christlieb. Ramez Idriss.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell that name, please?
Mr. Christlieb. I-d-r-i-s-s.
Milton Kestenbaum.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell it, pelase?
Mr. Christlieb. K-e-s-t-e-n-b-a-u-m.
Mr. Tavenner. He also appeared as a witness.
Mr. Christlieb. And Herbert Lessner, L-e-s-s-n-e-r. Edgar Lust-
garten. L-u-s-t-g-a-r-t-e-n.
Lydia Marcus, M-a-r-c-u-s. Jean Musick, M-u-s-i-c-k, and Thelma
Musick, wife. Herbert Offner, 0-f-f-n-e-r.
Mr. TA^^<:NNER. He appeared, too, as a witness, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. I remember him.
Mr. Christlieb. Jack Pepper, P-e-p-p-e-r.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you mentioned a man by the name of
Pepper as the person in whose home you met. Is that the same person
as Jack Pepper?
Mr. Christlieb. No, that is George Pepper in whose home we met.
Mr. Tavenner. The one you are now naming is Jack Pepper? A
different person?
3930 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Christlieb. Eight.
And Wayne Ronka, R-o-n-k-a. Henry Roth and Esther Roth.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe Mr. Roth appeared yesterday.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Roth appeared twice.
Mr. Christlieb. Ted Saidenberg. S-a-i-d-e-n-b-e-r-g.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you Imow where Mr. Saidenberg is now ?
Mr. Christlieb. I don't l^now where he is now, but I know that he
travels.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the basis of your identification of Mr. Said-
enberg as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Christlieb. We met in his home in private meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet with him on more than one occasion
in his home ?
Mr. Christlieb. Several times ; yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall where he lived ?
Mr. Christlieb. In Beverly Hills. I don't recall the exact address.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us further identifying information
relating to him ?
Mr. Christlieb. No, because he was not in very long. And I say,
he did travel considerably. He was always on tour.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether he is now living in the city
of New York ?
Mr. Christlieb. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he an instrumentalist?
Mr. Christlieb. He was a pianist.
Mr. Tai-enner. Do you know whether he was married ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall his wife's name? I am asking that
only for a further identification of the man.
Mr. Christlieb. No, I don't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you Icnow whether or not his wife was a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Christlieb. I do not know that, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Proceed, please.
Mr. Christlieb, George Sandell.
Mr. Tavenner. Spell the name Sandell.
Mr. Christlieb. S-a-n-d-e-1-1.
Sam Siegal, S-i-e-g-a-1. Seymour Sheklow, S-h-e-k-1-o-w. Alec
Walden, W-a-1-d-e-n. Judith Poska, P-o-s-k-a. Sam Goldman,
G-o-l-d-m-a-n. Larry Goldman. Edward Gruen, G-r-ii-e-n. Kal-
man Bloch, B-1-o-c-h.
I believe that is it, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, your reasons for
terminating your membei'ship in the Communist Party?
Mr. Christlieb. I don't see how anyone can watch any organization
fail completely in most of its objectives time after time and year after
year and not question its origin, its reason for existence, and its basic
principles. And with respect to the union itself, where the party was
meant to be active, even the lef twing element moved with each failure
further away fi'om the party, left it isolated, so it was reduced to
nothing but recruiting and literature and a study society. And to
this very day if the word Communist or Commie is used on the union
flooi', the retelling sounds that come out of the members make it sound
like a vomitorium.
Communist activities in the los angeles, calif., area 3931
Mr. Tavenister. In other words, you are stating that as far as your
particular union is concerned that the Communist Party was ineffec-
tive in its efforts to control it?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, sir. I think the formalism charges also
brought by the Soviet Government against its composers should bring
every musician here to testify.
Mr. ScHERER. I didn't understand that.
Mr. Christlieb. The formalism charges, you will recall, that were
brought by the Soviet Government.
Mr. Doyle. I did not get the last part of your answer, Witness.
Mr. Christlieb. Just reading that alone, musicians everj'where
should, particularly here in Los Angeles, be willing to come here and
come up and explain that position on that charge.
Mr. Doyle. What do you mean by that ?
Mr. Christlieb. I don't think it is defensible.
Mr. Doyle. Tell us more about that? Why should the musicians
in Los Angeles worry about any declaration by the Soviet Government
in the field of music ? Why should that worry you ?
Mr. Christlieb. I think this has affected musicians all over the
world. And certainly many musicians in the branch, and here, were
asked to explain that position, and rather than explain it, they took
the attitude, well, you have a censorship of your own methods of com-
posing through your critic. I think that is rather ridiculous when
you consider one to hold a critic against a government.
Mr. SciiKRER. That is what Nikolai Khokhlov told us about so ably
2 days ago.
Mr. Christlieb. I believe along that same line in individual in-
stances, where 1 had anything to do with forming chamber groups to
play music for the arts and sciences and professions, I was repri-
manded by Altman, Mischa Altman, for tiying to play music of
Stravinsky.
Mr. Scherei{. You were personally reprimanded?
Mr. Christlieb. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. What did they say to j^ou at that time ?
Mr. Christlieb. No excuse at that time. This was before formal-
ism charges. This was only on the basis that Stravinsky was not
being performed at that time.
Mr. Scih:rer. Sav that again. You were criticized for playing
what?
Mr. Christlieb. The nuisic of Stravinsky, Igor Stravinsky.
Mr. Scherer. For what reason ?
Mr. Christlieb. No reason other than the fact that his music
was being ignored in the Soviet Union.
Mr. Scherer. Being ignored in the Soviet Union.
Mr. Jackson. Is it good music?
Mr. Christlieb. For me it is.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Why was it being ignored in the Soviet Union at
the time ?
Mr. Christlieb. It could have been for very personal reasons. The
man has been in this countr}^ for a considerable length of time now.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, do I understand that
Mr. Christlieb. As a citizen.
Mr. Doyle. According to your testimony, Mr. Altman, one of the
heads of the Communist Party cell of the musicians in Los Angeles,
3932 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
and in the Congress of Musicians was telling you that because the
music of this Russian composer was frowned upon in Soviet Russia at
that time, not to play it in the United States ?
Mr. Christlieb. It amounted to that, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Is that correct?
Mr. Christlieb. That is correct.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Khokhlov testified also that that ban in the Soviet
Union included Rachmaninojff . Was that also true in your experience ?
Mr. Christlieb. I didn't know that, sir.
Mr. Jackson. But you were told as a musician by a member of the
Communist Party and a leader of your branch that such and such a
musician's music was out of favor and you should not play it?
Mr. Christlieb. That is correct.
Mr. Jackson. Whether you liked it or not ?
Mr. Christlieb. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, Mr. Chairman, here is another case in
the field of music, which is certainly the universal language, where
the Soviet Communist Party was trying to dictate internationalwise
what music should be played, and where, even in tlie United States,
only the music should be played which had approval in Soviet Com-
munist Russia.
Is that a fair statement, Mr. Witness ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Scherer. When you were told not to do that, or reprimanded —
you could not plead the first amendment either, could you ?
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point. )
Mr. Christlieb. That is true.
Mr. Scherer. Freedom of association and expression.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you any other reasons that you would like to
state as to why you left the Communist Party ?
Mr. Christlieb. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was any effort made to get you to rejoin the Com-
munist Party after you left?
Mr. Christlieb. On several occasions, not more than 2 or 3, people
from the party came to me and asked if I wanted to be in activity
again.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were they ?
Mr. Christlieb. Anita Short and Herb Lessner.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Questions, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. Referring to this Communist Party cell among the mu-
sicians, did you testify as to where the cell met and that "they met
in my own home" ? Is that true ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Is that correct ?
Mr. Christlieb. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. And about how many times did this Communist cell of
musicians meet in your home?
Mr, Christlieb. Many times, sir. I couldn't begin to guess.
Mr. DoYT.E. Were each and every one of those Communist Party cell
meetings in your home known to you to be closed Communist Party
meetings ?
Mr. Christlieb. That is correct.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3933
Mr. Doyle. Then your testimony which you have given is based
upon the fact that you had more than just usual knowledge because
they met in your own home right under your own roof ?
Mr. Christlieb. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. And on so many occasions you cannot enumerate them ?
Mr. Chbistlieb. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Is that correct ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. You realize that probably there already are a few
people in this room who have started calling you another informer,
and criticizing you for coming today and testifying. You realize
that, don't you ?
Mr. Christlieb. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Let's make it clear. He had no choice either. He
was subpenaed.
Mr. DoYLE. I know. But he had the choice of pleading the amend-
ments the same as every other American citizen who isn't in the Com-
munist Party or under their discipline.
Mr. ScHERER. I mean we appreciate his coming and cooperating.
But I wanted to point out he just didn't come here volmitarily to
testify.
Mr. DoYLE. May I make this observation at this point, Mr. Chair-
man : Here is another case — and there have been 2 or 3 others during
these hearings — where men or women, former active Communist Party
workers, retiring from the party because they got enough of it, have
come forward to help the United States Congress to understand the
problem.
I want to thank you for it.
One more question. I have never met you in my life before. I have
never talked with you before. One reason this committee is here is
that under Public Law 601, this is a subcoimnittee of a standing com-
mittee of nine of the Congress. Our assignment is to make investi-
gations of the method, manner and extent to which the Communist
Party or any other subversive outfit, whether it comes from the Soviet
Union or any other place, undertakes to infiltrate and control any
group of American citizens for the purpose of overthrowing our
Government by force and violence.
I don't know what your answer will be. I don't know whether you
have thought it through or not. But in these hearings I am primarily
interested in trying to find out from you men who .have been in the
Communist Party, and are patriotic men and have gotten out for
good cause, if you have anything to suggest to this committee which
we might recommend to the United States Congress for either amend-
ing legislation, or new legislation, for handling the question of sub-
versive activities in the United States? Have you any observation
to make for our benefit in that field ?
I realize you are a musician. Maybe you have not been thinking
along that line.
Mr. Christlieb. I think I would not come to the full appreciation
of what appearing before this committee has meant to me until I re-
flect on it later.
Mr. Doyle. Anticipating that there might be a few here within
hearing of our voices, a few outside, and certainly a few Communist
3934 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA \
inspired papers and publications which will falsely report what has
occurred here, charging you immediately with being a paid informer
or a stool pigeon, will you state whether or not you have been paid or ^
promised any payment or any inducement or any employment or any-
thing else for testifying as you have today ?
Mr. Christlieb. No, sir ; this was entirely of my own volition.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. SciiERER. And you came as a result of a subpena issued by this
committee compelling your attendance ? j
Mr. Christlieb. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. Is that all, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. That is all. ,
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Christlieb, the committee wishes to express to j
you our sincere appreciation for your cooperation in giving us the in- j
formation and such facts or knowledge as you have concerning Com- i
munist Party activities. We admire your courage and we sincerely j
appreciate your coming before us and giving us the facts as you know '
them to be. I
Thank you very much.
The committee will stand in recess until 1 : 45 p. m,
(Whereupon, at 12 : 05 p. m., a recess was taken until 1 : 45 p. m., this
same day; there being present Representatives Moulder, Doyle, and
Scherer.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— FRIDAY, APRIL 20, 1956
(The subcommittee was reconvened at 2 p. m., upon the expiration
of the recess ; present : Representatives ]\Ioulder, Doyle, Jackson, and I
Scherer. )
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Will you call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner ? j
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Idriss. i
Will you come forward, please, sir ? j
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn. '
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give j
the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ? i
Mr. Idriss. Yes. '
TESTIMONY OF RAMEZ IDEISS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? i
Mr. Idriss. Ramez Idriss, '
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your first name and last name? ^
Mr. Idriss. R-a-m-e-z, is correct spelling of my first name, but I use |
R-a-m-e-y. The last name is I-d-r-i-s-s. I
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Idriss, you were identified this morning by a
witness as having been a member of the Connnunist l*arty. I under-
stand you have consulted the stall' and desire to appear voluntarily
before the committee. Is tliat cf))-roct? j
Mr. Idriss. Yes.
When and wliere were you bom'^
Mr. Jdkiss. New Yoi-k City, 1911.
Mr. Taveknkr. AVhere do vou now i-eside?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3935
Mr. Idriss. North Hollywood.
Mr. Tavexxer. What is your occupation or profession?
Mr. Idriss. I am a musician and songwriter.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in that profes-
sion ?
Mr. Idriss. Since 19-13 as a songwriter. Since 1938 as a musician.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been identified as having been a member
of the musicians branch of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Idriss. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You may proceed with whatever statement you
desire to make to the committee regarding that.
Mr. Idkiss. Well, that is true. I was a member and I cannot remem-
ber exactly the date that I joined. I think it was somewhere around
1939 or 1940. Previous to having joined, I have been active in my
musicians union politics, but was not a very astute person politically.
It was kind of a — well, my background had been one of not being very
important, and when I got into the union it was about the first tiling
ever happened to me that nuide me feel a little bit forward. And I got
into tlie musicians' union, and I met people who seemed to be pretty
clear-thinking and aware, and to me this was something where possibly
I could leai'n something.
I went in and was very active in the election of Spike Wallace for
president, and I had been in the union previous to that when Jack
Tenney had been elected and then defeated. And at that time I felt
that this was just an intelligent approach to trying to do better in our
union.
I had studied in school, I had studied civics, and enjoyed civics, but
I guess I hadn't grown up enough to actually be very forward myself.
When we had the election in the union I was a hard worker. I would
do the leg work liard for the election of Spike Wallace. And as a
result of that I su]ipose I became interesting to the people with whom
I was later associated.
It was about 1939 or 19-10 that I was taken into the Communist
Party. At that time I felt that it was a sincere effort to do something
for the M'orld and for our country.
As to activities that I engaged in, I went to meetings. I could not
tell 3'ou where because they were in various houses. And we did things
like forming committees. We formed the original Hollywood Can-
teen Committee. And conservation of tires was one of the things that
was so important, and all of the sort of activities which I felt were
congruent M'ith our winning the war.
In 1946 or thereabouts I had moved from the area that I lived
in which put me in the musicians branch, to another area. I was
transferred to another branch out in the valley. I couldn't tell you
where. It was way in someplace and gone, and I attended 1 or 2
meetings there.
About that time work was kind of bad and I had started thinking
about — just something happened to me where it seemed that I wasn't
doing anything for myself. I was just going along and doing as
I was told. And at the same time a very simple thing made me decide
to leave the Communist Party. I had been pressed for work at the
time. I was not economically secure. And in spite of this, I had
repeated efforts made to collect dues from me, which I didn't have.
3936 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
And all of a sudden it hit me very clearl;^ that if this party was
supposed to be for the brotherhood of man it was a very funny way
of showing it to expect me to pay dues when I didn't have it. And
I got out.
Mr. Tavenner. That was in 1946 ?
Mr. Idriss. I would say it was in 1946. I cannot be sure of the
date because I have forgotten it since then and have tried to forget
the whole thing.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of the persons who
were associated with you in the musicians branch, that is, the first
group that you were a member of ?
Mr. Idriss. This would be a very difficult thing, for this reason:
There were many people with whom I associated in the musicians
union, and some of them were active in the union itself, and I do not
know that they were in the branch. It was a large branch and I
couldn't be sure of all of the names. There are a few names I might
be able to give you. I certainly should know the name of the person
who took me in. That was Mischa Altman.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the leaders of this group in the Com-
munist Party, that is, persons who took the most active part, after
you became a member?
Mr. Idriss. I remember Carroll Hollister, Joe DiFiore, Henry
Roth.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the last name ?
Mr. Idriss. Roth. I seem to recall the name Edmund Gruen, and
I cannot be sure.
Mr. Tavenner. If there is a name that you are not sure of, I"
don't
Mr. Idriss. I am not. He was in the union and might not have
been connected with the party.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand the individual was identified by other
testimony this morning, so I will not ask that it be stricken.
Mr. Idriss. It is hard to remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there anything else you desire to say to the
committee ?
Mr. Idriss. These people whom I have just named, they are people
whom I had a lot of respect for at one time. And probably they right
now are somewhere in this room and they probably don't think too
much of me. But I just feel that they are wrong. And I feel that
I have come up here because I have nothing to gain or lose. I sin-
cerely want to say to all the people I was associated with that when
1 felt that it was a good thing to be in the Communist Party I was
in it. Right now I don't feel it is a good thing and I haven't felt
it since I got out, or I wouldn't have gotten out. And I think that
when I think of the effort we put in, if we worked just as damn hard —
and sure there is a lot of thmgs wrong with our American Govern-
ment. A lot of times Congressmen are wrong. A lot of times guys
are thieves, like we saw in the war when they tried them. Damn it,
they got them. I would like to see us just go ahead and work for
our own country.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. No questions.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3937
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. You vohmtarily approached a member of the staff
to make this statement ?
Mr. Idriss. I was told that I was going to be identified and I said
that I wanted to clear myself.
Mr. Jackson. Do you feel better ?
Mr. Idriss. Yes, I do.
•Mr. Jackson. I congratulate you on your decision. I think it was
a very wise decision and I would hope it would be followed by others
in the same predicament who went into the Communist Party, got
out of it, and have had nothing to do with it since. I think they
would feel a lot better in their own minds if they got it off their chests.
Tliank you very much.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer, do you have any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. No ; I have none.
Mr. Moulder. Call the next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Joseph DiFiore.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give
before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. DiFioRE. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH DiFIORE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, .
ARTHUR A. BROOKS, JR.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. DiFiORE. Joseph DiFiore.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record ?
Mr. Brooks. Arthur A. Brooks, Jr.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. DiFiore?
, Mr. DiFiore. New York City, 1906.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name, please, sir ?
Mr. DiFiore. D-i-F-i-o-r-e.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of your birth?
Mr. DiFiore. 1906.
Mr, Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles ?
Mr. DiFiore. I do, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided here?
Mr. DiFiore. Twenty years.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession?
Mr. DiFiore. A musician.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged professionally in
that work ?
Mr. DiFiore. I would say the past 80 years as a musician,
Mr. Tavenner, What has been your formal educational training?
Mr, DiFiore. I attended the schools of New York, taking some
selective courses at New York University. I graduated and did post-
graduate at the Institute of Musical Art, Juilliard School of Music.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of branch O of the northwest
section of the Communist Party in Los Angeles, sometimes referred
to as the musicians branch of the Communist Party ?
3938 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. DiFiORE. Mr. Tavenner and members of this committee, I do
not think that this committee has the right to inquire into my private
beliefs and associations and therefore I must clecline to answer on
constitutional grounds, including the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have an}^ personal knowledge of a plan
by the Communist Party to use its members who were musicians to
circulate petitions in Los Angeles to place the Independent Progres-
sive Party on the ballot in 1948 ?
Mr. DiFiORE. Again I must decline to answer on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a document marked for identification
as "DiFiore Exhibit ^o. 1.'"
It is a photostatic copy of an Independent Progressive Party peti-
tion bearing date of January 31, 1948, at the end of which, is an affida-
vit over the name of Joseph DiFiore. Will you examine that, please,
and state whether or not the name appearing at the bottom of the
affidavit is your name and whether it is your signature ?
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DiFiore. I shall decline to identify any signature on any docu-
ment that you may present me on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer the document in evidence and ask that it
be marked "Joseph DiFiore Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Moitlder. Without any objection, it is so admitted.
(This exhibit is similar to'"Kalman Bloch Exhibit No. 1", p. 3957
and will not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the
committee's records.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, this affidavit, as the others, shows
that the individual named, Joseph DiFiore, circulated the petition and
obtained the signatures thereon.
Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. DiFiore. Again I must say that you have no right to inquire,
into my beliefs and associations. But I will state that I am not a mem-
ber of the Communist Party.
yir. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the
time that the subpena was served on you to appear before this
committee ?
Mr. DiFiore. I must invoke the same amendments, the first and
fifth.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DiFiore. I must decline to answer on the grounds of the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the
beginning of this hearing which was on Monday of this week, today
l>eing Friday
Mr. DiFiore. I must decline to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party yes-
1 erday ?
Mr. DiFiore. I must decline to answer on the grounds previously
stated, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it just Fridays that you are not a member of the
Communist Party ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3939
Mr. DiFioRE. I decline to answer.
Mr. Taat.nner. I have no further questions.
Mr. DiFioRE. On the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. jNIoulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. DoTi.E. I think in connection -with the witness' testimony that
we have no right to inquire, I want to read one short paragraph from
the decision of Quinn v. United States, which is a recent decision of
May 23, 1955.
The Supreme Court said, and I quote :
There can be no doubt as to the power of Congress, by itself or thi'ough its
committees, to investigate matters and conditions relating to contemplated
legislation. This power, deeply rooted in American and English institutions, is
indeed coextensive with the power to legislate. Without the power to investi-
gate — including of course the authority to compel testimony, either through its
own processes or through judicial trial — Congress could be seriously handi-
capped in its efforts to exercise its constitutional function wisely and effectively.
May I say to the witness, in view of your answer that you are not
now a member of the Communist Party, I don't mean to impute any
lack of good faith on your part : But may I ask so as to clear it in my
own mind and on the record, are you in any way today, which is the
day you said you are not a member of the Communist Party, in any
relationship directly or indirectly to again be a member of the Com-
munist Party at some future date. Or are you completely free from
any conscious awareness of being in any w^ay tied up with the Commu-
nist Party philosophy ? Is tliat a fair question ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DiFioRE. Mr. Doyle, I liave no intention of joining the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Doyle. I want to compliment you.
Mr. Moulder. Is that all, Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. That is all.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. I have no questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Edgar Lustgarten,
jNIr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Lustgarten. I do.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavemier.
TESTIMONY OF EDGAR LUSTGARTEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
EDMUND W. COOKE
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Lustgarten. Edgar Lustgarten.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name ?
Mr, Lustgarten. L-u-s-t-g-a-r-t-e-n.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record ?
Mr. CooKE. Edmund Cooke, C-o-o-k-e.
3940 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Lustgarten?
Mr. Lustgarten. I was born April 14, 1916, in Chicago, 111.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Lustgarten. I reside in Los Angeles.
Mr. Ta\'t:nner. How long have you been a resident of Los Angeles ?
Mr. Lustgarten. There was a period in which I left Los Angeles.
1 was here about 5 months between the time I was discharged from
the Army and I went to St. Louis for a period of 3 years from July or
Jmie until 1949 when I returned to Los Angeles. I have been in Los
Angeles since 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. You were in St. Louis for 3 years prior to that?
Mr. Lustgarten. Three years, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your employment while
living in St. Louis ?
Mr. Lustgarten. I was solo cellist in the St. Louis Symphony.
Mr. Tavenner. What has been your profession and your employ-
ment since you came to California in 1949 ?
Mr. Lustgarten. I have been emploj^ed under contract at a movie
studio here.
yir. Taa^enner. Were you in California prior to your taking em-
ployment in St. Louis?
Mr. Lustgarten. I was discharged from the service in 1945 and I
was here for a period of about 4 or 5 months. That was in December
of 1945. I left in May of 1946.
JMr. Moulder. May I interrupt to ask, you say you were discharged
from the service. Do you mean from the Armed Forces?
JMr. Lustgarten. That is right.
Mr. INIouT.DER. As a member of the Armed Forces of the United
States, for what period of time did you serve ?
IVIr. Lustgarten. I enlisted in December 1942 and was honorably
discharged in December of 1945.
Mr. Moulder. Wliat branch of the service?
Mr. Lustgarten. Army Air Corps.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Prior to 1942, where did-you reside?
Mr. Lustgarten. New York City.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your employment there?
Mr. Lustgarten. I was a member of the NBC Symphony Orches-
tra there since its inception, which was 1937.
Mr. Tant.nner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training hos been?
Mr. Lustgarten. I attended grammar school and high school in
Chicago and then I, at the same time, attended the Chicago Musical
College and the American Conservatory of ]\Iusic in Chicago. I left
then to continue my musical studies in New York where I went to the
Institute of Musical Art and I took some related courses at Columbia
University.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you complete that worlc at Columbia
University?
Mr. Lustgarten. That was approximately 1935.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
you performed any services for what is knoAvn as Branch O of the
Nortii west Section of the Communist Party in Los Angeles, also known
as the Musicians Branch of the Communist Partv?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3941
Mr. LusTGARTiiN. I decline to testify on the grounds of the fifth
amendment of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you assist in ^ny manner in recruiting pei"Sons
to that Communist Party organization ?
Mr. LusTGARTEN. I will have to give the same answer tx) that, sir.
Mr. Jackson. For the same reason ?
Mr. LusTGARTEN. For the same reason.
Mr. Moulder. You mean you decline to answer for the same
reasons ?
Mr. LuSTGARTEN. Yes.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Musicians Branch of the
Communist Party during that part of 1945 when you were in Los
Angeles ?
Mr. LuSTGARTEN. Well, I was in the Army in 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated that you were here 5 months in 1945
before going to St. Louis.
Mr. LuSTGARTEN. I think the record will show that that was in 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. In 1946 ?
Mr. LuSTGARTEN. Yes.
Mr. Tavetstner. Where did you serve in the United States Army?
Mr. LuSTGARTEN, I was a member of the Army Air Forces Radio
Production Unit.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere were you stationed ?
Mr. LuSTGARTEN. That was in Santa Ana, Calif.
Mr. Tavenner. How far is that from Los Angeles ?
Mr. LuSTGARTEN. I guess about 60 miles. I am not sure. About
an hour and a half.
Mr. Tavenner, I understand it is about 35 miles.
Mr. LuSTGARTEN. I was figuring round trip, I guess.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the
time you were stationed in that vicinity, and while in the Armed
Forces ?
Mr. LuSTGARTEN. I refuse to testify for the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner, When you say the 5 months of time that you were
in this area was in 1946, 1 thought you meant 1945, Were you a mem-
ber of the Musicians Branch of the Communist Party during that
period in 1946 ?
Mr. LusixjARTEN. I would have to decline for the reasons stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. LuSTGARTEN. I am not a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner, Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time while in Los Angeles, between 1949 and the present time ?
Mr, LuSTGARTEN. I decline to testify on the grounds of the 1st and
6th amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner, Were you a member of the Communist Party yes-
terday?
Mr, LuSTGARTEN. The same grounds, the same reasons.
Mr, Tavenner, You refuse to answer ?
Mr. LuSTGARTEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle?
3942 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Doyle. May I ask you the same question I asked the wit-
ness just ahead of you, whether or not there is any reservation or
limitation on today as to whether or not you have any obligations,
directly or indirectly, moral or otherwise, to be a member of the Com-
munist Party at any future date, tomorrow, or a week from tomorrow,
or a year from tomorrow ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. LusTGARTEN. I liave no intention of becoming a member of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. I want to compliment you.
At this point, Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that this witness
and so many witnesses have pleaded constitutional privileges, the 1st
and 5th amendments, may I read one short paragraph from a brief
filed in the Supreme Court of the United States by the American Bar
Association. Certainly we lawyer members of the committee, and
the lawyers who appear in this hearing room with these witnesses,
should take a good deal of stock in what the American Bar Associa-
tion files with the Supreme Court. May I just read this at this point?
I think it is important that we get it in the record. I read from page 7,
and this is in the case of Commwnist Party of the United States of
America, Petitioner, v. /Subversive Activities Control Board:
The Communist Party — petitioners' contention that the act violates its freedom
of speech under the first amendment is without merit. Section 1 of the act
eliminates any basis for such argument.
By no sane or sound construction of the act can it be deemed to control freedom
of thought or of speech or to apply to radical espousal or radical organizations
unless they result from foreign domination of the Communist movement. No
organization and no individual — however radical but not so dominated — is
encompassed by this act. Nor is any person or organization prevented from
advocating any change, however far reaching, however unsound, however ob-
noxious, through change in our Constitution.
Article V of the Constitution provides one of the greatest of all rights —
possibly even the greatest — that of the people to effect any change in our Gov-
ernment by the adoption of appropriate amendment to the Constitution. Orderly
change in the Government by choice of the people is not one of the basic concepts
of communism, which espouses rather subversion and violent resolution. In no
country that communism dominates has it achieved power by the free choice
of its people — not even in Russia.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. ScHFJiER. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Call the next witness, please, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Morris Boltuch.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to
give before the committee will be the truth, the wliole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so helj) you God ?
Mr. Boltuch. I do,
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
TESTIMONY OF MORRIS BOLTUCH, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
DANIEL G. MARSHALL
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Boltuch. Morris Boltuch.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3943
Mr. Tavenner. "Will you spell both your first and last names?
Mr. BoLiTJCH. M-o-r-r-i-s B-ol-t-u-c-h.
Mr. TA\T?.isrNER. Will counsel please identify himself for the record?
Mr. Marshall. Daniel G. Marshall.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Boltuch?
Mr. Boltuch. I was born May 17, 1921, in Winnipeg, Canada.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you tirst come to the United States?
Mr. Boltuch. I entered the United States at the age of 5 or 6
months.
Mr. Tavenner. And you have lived in the United States since that
time?
Mr. Boltuch. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen?
Mr. Boltuch. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you naturalized ?
Mr. Boltuch. February 25, 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Where?
Mr. Boltuch. At New York City.
Mr. Tavenner. You were living in New York City at that timCy
I assume?
(Tlie witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Boltuch. Would you repeat the question, please?
Mr. Tavenner. You were living in New York City at that time,
I assume?
Mr. Boltuch. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How long had you been living there?
Mr. Boltuch. I was under contract with the New York Philhar-
monic Symphony Orchestra from October 1944 until May or June of
1948.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you reside after June 1948 ?
Mr, Boltuch. Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession now ?
Mr. Boltuch. I am a musician.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been engaged in the practice of your
profession in Los Angeles since 1948 ?
Mr. Boltuch. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you lived in Los Angeles at any time prior to
June 1948?
Mr. Boltuch. I first came to Los Angeles in 1929.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you live here, then ?
Mr. Boltuch. I lived here until I went to the Curtis Institute of
Music in Philadelphia in 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you residing in Philadelphia?
Mr. Boltuch. Approximately 1942, during which time I ap-
peared with the Philadelphia Opera, the Baltimore Symphony, and
the Robin Hood Dell Orchestra.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you reside between 1942' and 1944 when
you took your contract in New York City ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Boltuch. I was in the National Symphony of Washington,
D. C, in 1943, 1 think it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you reside at any other place between 1942
and 1944?
7743&— .^6— pt. 10 i
3944 coMMinsriST activities in the los angeles, calif., area
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTucH. Well, to the best of my recollection, I would say that
I had come back to Los Angeles to visit my parents on occasion.
Mr. Tavenner. Your parents' home was in Los Angeles ?
Mr. BoLTucH. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in the practice of your profession
at any time between 1942 and 1944 in Los Angeles?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTucH. As far as I can recall, I don't — I mean, as far as I
can remember I don't remember any musical engagements in that
period. But I am sure you could check that.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you reside in the city of New York at any period
other than between 1944 and June 1948 ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTucH. May I ask what the pertinency of this is?
Mr. Tavenner. You will have to assume that it is pertinent or I
wouldn't ask it.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTDCH. My counsel advises me that if it is pertinent you
should explain that to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the witness be directed to
answer the question ?
Mr. Moulder. What is the question ?
Mr. Tavenner. The question is whether or not the witness lived at
any time in the city of New York other than between 1944 and June
1948.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTucH. I really would appreciate your explaining to me the
pertinency of this. I have given you these yeai*s where I have been.
I think I have been quite proper in identifying at this point.
Mr. Jackson. Does counsel have a definite purpose in ascertaining
this period of time?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Other than obtaining a complete year-by-year chron-
ology there is a definite purpose?
Mr. Ta\tenner. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Very well. I ask your direction for an answer.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTucH. I would like to know the pertinency of this. If you
can state it perhaps you can make me recollect something.
Mr. Jackson. Do you have any recollection of whether or not
you
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTUCH. Please explain the pertinency of this.
Mr. Jackson. No. I have asked counsel. He states that he has a
purpose in asking it. Therefore I ask the witness be directed to
answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. So do I make the same request.
Mr. BoLTUciT. Mr. Chairman, please explain the pertinency. I
wasn't given, I wasn't told that I had to bring a whole biograi^hical
sketch here. I don't know exactly where I was, exactly. I was
traveling.
Mr. MoTTT.DER. The witness is directed to answer if you can recall
whether or not you did reside in New York at any other period of time.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3945
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. The hesitancy of answering on the part of the wit-
ness indicates Mr. Tavenner's question is pertinent.
Mr. Marshall. T\^iat does it indicate, Mr. Scherer? It doesn't
indicate anything at all. You don't even know it does.
Mr. Jackson. Regular order,
Mr. Marshall. Stop fooling around.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Marshall, let's proceed in an orderly fashion.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTUCH. You put me in the position where I am forced to
decline to answer this question.
Mr. Jackson. You are not forced to decline.
Mr. BoLTUCH. Until I hear the pertinency of it.
Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer? You are under no com-
pulsion to answer or to refuse to answer. You have a choice which
you are going to pursue. But there is no compulsion.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTUCH. Mr. Chairman, what is the pertinency of this? Mr.
Tavenner says he knows the pertinency. Wliy can't he tell me this?
Mr. Moulder. You have the right to answer the question or to
decline to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. I say you are directed to answer the question, unless
you desire in good faith to decline to answer on the basis of the first
or fifth amendment or some other provision of the Constitution or
other legal grounds.
Mr. BoLTucH. Well, it is possible that I was in New York in 1943.
I am not absolutely positive about this. It is also possible — I also
know that I made a vacation trip to New York. I don't remember
what year that was.
Mr. Jackson. As I recall the question, it was did you reside in New
York at any time other than the dates you gave.
Did you reside in the sense that you had a residence in New York ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTUCH. I still would like to hear the pertinency of all this.
Mr. Scherer. He is doing that now at the direction of his counsel,
and his counsel has heard
Mr. Marshall. Of course he is.
Mr. Scherer. Keep quiet a minute.
Mr. Marshall. Don't shut me up. Don't talk to me that way.
Mr. Scherer. You keep quiet. You know the rules of this
committee.
Mr. Marshall. I will take my directions from the chairman. You
don't talk to me that way, either.
Mr. Jackson. Regular order.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I was saying that you have told this
witness 4 or 5 times that the pertinency of the question is not involved.
You directed him to answer. He has asked you 4 or 5 times at the
direction of counsel what pertinency does the question have. We have
settled that. Let's move along.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Let's proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Does the witness refuse to answer ?
3946 COAIMTJNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. I think he has been given every reasonable oppor-
tunity to answer.
Mr. BoLTucH. I possibly was in New York, living in New York, in
1943.
Mr. Ta\^nner. At any time other than 1943 ?
Mr. BoLTucH. No.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Where did you reside in 1943?
Mr. Marshall. Just a minute.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Marshall. May we have that last answer read ?
Mr. Chairman, may I have it read?
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter as follows :)
Question. At any time other than 194.S?
Answer. No.
Mr. BoLTucH. I would like to amend that to "so far as I now re-
member."
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time prior to 1944 while in the city of New York ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTUCH. As you know, by my identification, I am a musician.
That has been my whole life. I have spent my life trying to bring
a little joy to people.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTUCH. If I were to answer this question in the way that you
would like to hear me, I would have to go against my religion,
which
Mr. Tavenner. We only want the truth.
Mr. BoLTUCH. Wliich would not allow me to be an informer. I
therefore am declining to answer this question on legal grounds, using
that amendment which guarantees to the people of this country free-
dom of speech, thought, association, the first amendment, and on fur-
ther grounds that amendment in which an innocent man cannot be
denied due process of law and be compelled to be a witness against
himself, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. As I understand it, you use as a reason for declining
to answer, the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. BoLTUCH. My previous answer stands.
Mr. Moulder. You say your religion prevents you from being an
informer ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Did you say religion ?
Mr. BoLTucH. I said religion, the Jewish religion.
Mr. INIouLDER. Very well. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Taatenner. You know when you say that you are making a
false statement with regard to the Jewisli religion, do you not?
(The M'itness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Chairman, we are getting into a ver}^ dangerous
area with respect to this subject, and I ask the chairman to request
counsel to withdraw that question. That is a very dangerous area,
one that this committee has no concern witlL
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3947
Mr. Jackson. I ask tlie chairman to prevent counsel from makinj^
speeches in violation of the rules. The conmiittee will judge what areas
are dangerous and what areas are not dangerous.
Mr. Marshall. The committee is not the sole judge.
Mr. Jackson. It requires no enlightenment from you.
Mr. Marshall. I think it does from the caliber of that question.
Mr. Jackson. 1 am going to ask, Mr. Chairman, and I am going
to insist, so long a.s I sit further as a member of this subcommittee,
that at any further outburst, or comment from counsel, he be removed
from the committee room. Either counsel comports himself in accord-
ance with the established rules of this committee or he leaves the
committee room.
Mr. Moulder. In accordance with the rules of the committee, the
motion as made by Mr. Jackson will of necessity have to be sustained.
I sense that there may be a deliberate plot or plan to inject religion into
the course of conduct of the heai'ings. And, as I say, it has no place
in this proceeding. But let's proceed from here, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Marshall. Is the question withdrawn ?
Mr. Moulder. Let's proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you remove your hand so that the gentleman
may answer the question ?
Mr. Marshall. May I reply to Mr. Tavenner or
Mr. Jackson. No.
Mr. Moulder. As stated by Mr. Jackson you are well aware of the
rules of this connnittee. It does not permit counsel to address the
committee or to engage in arguments with any member of the com-
mitte or with counsel. You have the right to advise and consult with
your client, advise him on questions of law arising in connection with
the questions that might be pro;)ounded to him. Otherwise, of course,
it is not an ordinary procedure and you are well aware of that.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, nuiy I read rule VII, which Counsel
Marshall is well aware of :
The participation of counsel during the course of any hearing and while the
witness is testifying shall be limited to advising said witness as to his legal
rights. Counsel shall not be permitted to engage in oral argument with the com-
mittee, but shall confine his activity to the area of legal advice to his client.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, before counsel proceeds, lest we do
become involved in some argument or debate ^vhicl^ is foisted upon the
committee, I would request that this area be no further explored in
questioning. It is not in the proper province of the committee, and
I am confident that had it not been brought up by a witness, it would
not have been mentioned during the course of this hearing.
Mr. Doyle. That is correct, certainly.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether you
had a Communist Party membership transferred from the city of
New York to Los Angeles ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. BoLTUCH. Would you repeat the question, please ?
Mr. Ta\t-]nner. Did you have your Communist Party membership
transferred from the city of New York to Los Angeles ?
Mr. BoLTUCH. This is the same type of question you asked before,
and I am going to decline for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you affiliate with the musicians branch of the
Communist Party in Los Angeles ?
3948 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. BoLTUCH. The same question, the same answer, the same legal
grounds.
Mr. Moulder. Is tliat the first and fifth amendments you are
claiming ?
Mr. BoLTucH. I think the record will show exactly what it is.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. BoLTUCH. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. No questions.
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer, do you have any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Philip Goldberg.
JNIr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you, God ?
Mr. Goldberg. I do.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
TESTIMONY OF PHILIP GOLDBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
RICHARD L. RYKOPP
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Goldberg. Philip Goldberg.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record?
Mr. Rykofe. Yes. Richard L. Rykoff, R-y-k-o-f-f.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Goldberg?
Mr. Goldberg. Philadelphia, Pa., August 27, 1918.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Goldberg. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided here ?
Mr. Goldberg. From the middle of 1949 to the present.
Mr. Tavenner. In what profession are you engaged ?
Mr. Goldberg. I am a musician.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you practice your profession prior to 1949, and
if so where ?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes ; would you like a rundown on it ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; and give also your formal educational training
while doing so.
Mr. Goldberg. Public school education in Philadelphia; graduate
of Curtis Institute in 1941; member of the All American Youth Or-
chestra under Stokowski, North American tour. At this point I
came to Los Angeles, June of 1941, as a member of the Janssen Sym-
phony. I worked for major motion picture studios, enlisted in the
Army Air Corps in 1943, mustered out in 1946 in the East. First
viola staff NBC radio in Philadelphia; first viola Philadelphia La-
Scala Opera Co.; free-lance in New York, 1947 to 1949; Broadway
sliows, I was a relief viola in NBC Symphony; viola appearances
WNYC; Brooklyn Museum, and other extensive appearances in the
concert field.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3949
In 1949, about May, I believe, I came to Los Angeles again as a
member of the Los Angeles Philharmonic, and then a member of the
Paramount Pictures Recording Orchestra. At the present lime I am
a free-lance violist in the studios if this committee doesn't interfere
with my right to work in this field and first violist in the Los Angeles
Chamber Symphony.
Mr. Tavenner. You have been in the area of Los Angeles on two
occasions, one between 1941 and 1942, and the other from 1949 until
the present, is that correct ?
Mr. Goldberg. From 1941 to 1943. I went into the Army in 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. In this latter period, from 1949 to the present time,
have you been a member of the Musicians Branch of the Communist
Party in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Goldberg. I am going to decline to answer that question. And
I wish to state that I do so of my own free will, not urged to or com-
pelled to. I searched my own conscience, and I believe that the only
recourse open to a man who doesn't have the back of a question mark is
to decline to answer that question on the grounds that this commit-
tee is probing into areas that I feel are not within its jurisdiction. I
decline on the basis of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Musicians Branch of the
Communist Party in Los Angeles between 1941 and 1943 ?
Mr. Goldberg. You know the answer to that one, Mr. Tavenner. I
have sat here for several days hearing testimony, and a man who
will
Mr. Tavenner. Yes; I think I know.
Mr. Goldberg, A man who will decline to answer on your first
question will certainly decline on every other basis within this area
of discussion.
Mr. Moulder. I am interested in your statement you made to coun-
sel that he might know the answer to that question.
Would you submit to counsel answering the question for you?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer the question ?
Mr. Goldberg. I do so on the same grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Goldberg. I decline also on the same gi-oundsfor the reasons
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Questions, Mr. Doyle ?
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. DoTLE. In view of your statement that you have sat here in the
hearing room several days, therefore you must have heard able
musicians other than yourself?
Mr. Goldberg. Most able.
Mr. DoTLE. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Goldberg. Most able and most respected.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
You have heard other able, most respected musicians who have co-
operated with the committee and who have stated that at one time
they were members of the Communist Party. They have informed
this committee of their activities in the Communist Party as members
3950 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
of the musicians* group. Now, I presume that the people whom you
classify as men with a question mark for a back are the able musicians
who also have been members of distinguished orchestras and musical
groups. Am I wrong ? Do you classify ?
Mr, Goldberg. I was referring in the question mark to a geometrical
design in which they do not stand like men with straight backs and
defy this committee.
Mr. Doyle. I see. Then you classify the members of your own high
profession who have testified and cooperated with this committee as
not men. Is that your classification of youi- fellow nuisicians I
Mr. Goldberg. I will not discuss my fellow musicians with you,
Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. I can see the opinion you have of your fellow musicians
who have testified to help the United States Congress. You have
identified them for me all right. But I also recognize them as I do
you, members of a most valuable group of citizens, lending a lot of
joy and happiness to the Avorld, because you have heard me say here
that I recognize music as a universal language. But I am disappointed
in you, one fine musician, coming in and condemning other fine
inusicians on the ground that they are not men because they cooperated
with the United States Congress. That is what you have done.
Mr. Goldberg. The only recourse open to me, and the only criterion
for being a friendly witness before this committee is to name names.
Mr. Doyle. I am not criticizing you if you plead your amendment
in good faith. But I do criticize you for condemning and criticizing
other distinguished musicians for doing what they felt was their con-
scientious duty in good faith. I am surprised.
Mr. Goldberg. I would like to say, Mr. Doyle, that if there is such
to-do about looking for subversion, I would suggest that you create
10 committees like this to go clown into the South and see about the
difficulties and the denial of rights of millions of Negroes clown there
and a member of our own Congress who has defined the Supreme
Court ruling. I respect my institutions. I respect the Constitution.
I respect the Supreme Court.
Mr. Doyle, If you will look out for the subversion in the musicians
group not too far from you, maybe you will find some closer at hand
in years past.
But may I say again, I am disappointed in you, a high-class artist
in music, condemning, bawling out, and criticizing other distinguished
musicians because they have done what they conscientiously believe to
be right, the same as you say you have. Why don't you let the other
man have his rights in America, too ?
Mr. Goldberg. Mr. Doyle, I am disappointed in you who seem
to have had a fairly good labor record to come here and pillory indi-
viduals, innocent individuals like myself.
Mr. Doyle. I am proud of my labor lecord.
Ml'. Goldberg. I am just as patriotic as you.
Mr. Doyle. I don't deny that. I am proud of my labor record as
an American Congressman.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
The hearing will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3951
(Wliereiipon, a sliort recess was taken, there being present Rep-
resentatives Moulder, Doyle, and Sclierer.)
(The subcommittee was reconvened upon the expiration of the
recess: Present Representatives Moulder, Doyle, Jackson, and
Scherer.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you come forward, Mr. Joe Eger, please, sir?
Mr. Moulder. Hold lip your right hand and be sworn, please, Mr.
Eger.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give
before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Eger. I do, Mr. Moulder.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH EGER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
WILLIAM M. BRINTON
Mr. Eger. May I make a brief statement ?
Mr. Moulder. Do you have a written statement prepared?
Mr. Eger. Yes.
Mr, Moulder. You may file it with the committee.
Under tlie rules it is prohibited to read any statements.
Mr. Eger, Thank you.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Will you state your name, please, sir?
Mr. Eger. Joseph Eger,
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name?
Mr. Eger. E-g-e-r.
Mr. Ta\tenner, Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record ?
Mr. Brinton. William M. Brinton, B-r-i-n-t-o-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Of what bar?
Mr. Brinton. San Francisco bar, sir.
Mr. Ta\tnner. When and where were you born, Mr, Eger?
Mr. Eger. July 9, 1920, Hartford, Conn.
Mr. Tavenner, Where do you now reside ?
Mr, Eger. In Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long had you been a resident of Los Angeles?
Mr. Eger. Roughly about 10 years.
Mr. Tavenner. In what profession are you engaged ?
Mr. Eger. I am a musician.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you practiced your profession during the
entire time that you have been a resident of this area ?
Mr. Eger. Yes, I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Eger. I went through public schools in Parnassus, Pa., Pitts-
burgh, Pa. ; graduated high school there, and went as a full scholarship
student to the Curtis Institute and graduated there, and I spent one
summer also on a full scholarship at Tanglewood in the Berkshires.
Mr. Tavenner. What date?
Mr. Eger. What date was what, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. The date of the last place you attended.
Mr. Eger. Tanfflewood was in 1941.
3952 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what knowledge
you have, if any, of an effort made or a plan made by the Communist
Party to procure musicians to circulate petitions of the Independent
Progressive Party of California in 1948 for the purpose of putting
that party on the ballot in California ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Eger. Mr. Tavenner and gentlemen of the committee, I would
like to say at the outset that I am not a Communist, and it has been
a long time since I have done anything of a strictly political nature,
I feel that there is nothing I have ever done for which I need be
ashamed.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, may I inquire as to whether or not the
witness is reading the statement which he was informed previously
could be inserted in the record ?
Mr. Eger. Yes, Mr. Jackson. I was just saying this as a way of
replying to you. I didn't answer your question as "Yes." I am only —
I said in the statement what is the truth. And I was only refreshing
my memory as to what to answer to the question Mr. Tavenner placed.
Mr. Jackson. I didn't gather that your opening remarks were at all
responsive to the question which has been asked by counsel.
Mr. Eger. Could you repeat it, please ?
Mr. Tavenner. My question was whether or not you have any
knowledge of an effort made by the Communist Party, or of the
existence of a Communist Party plan to have musicians in Los Angeles,
that is. Communist Party musicians in Los Angeles, circulate a peti-
tion of the Independent Progressive Party in California for placing
that party on the ballot in 1948 ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Eger. I must decline to answer with the privilege of self-
incrimination.
Mr. Jackson. Specifically are you relying on the provisions of the
fifth amendment? I am asking that for your own protection in order
that the record may reflect exactly what constitutional grounds you
are taking.
Mr. Eger. The question may lead to incrimination, self-incrimina-
tion.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Marked for identification only as "Joseph Eger
Exhibit No. 1," I hand you a photostatic copy of the Independent Pro-
gressive Party of California petition which has an affidavit at the end
of it over the name of Joseph Eger, bearing date the 13th day of
January 1948. I now ask you whether or not it is your name that ap-
pears in that affidavit, and whether or not you signed it.
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Eger. Mr. Tavenner, I decline to identify my signature on the
grounds that I previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the document
marked "Joseph Eger Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Moulder. As requested by counsel, the document so marked
is admitted.
(This exhibit is similar to Kalman Bloch exhibit No. 1, p. 3957,
and will not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on lile in the
committee's records.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3953
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, an examination of the affidavit
discloses that the affiant states that he circulated the petition and
obtained the signatures appearing thereon.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. In January 1948, the date of the petition that I pre-
sented to you, were you a member of the musicians branch of the
Communist Party in Los Angeles?
Mr. Eger. May I have 30 seconds to answer that question ?
Mr. Moulder. You may have 30 seconds to answer the question;
3^es.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Eger. I would be perfectly willing to discuss anything about
myself, past, present, and future. However, I have been informed
by counsel that to do so would involve others and get others into bad
trouble. I do
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment. I have told you this committee
would make no bargains.
Mr. Eger. Pardon ?
Mr. Tavenner. I have told you that this committee would make
no agreements.
Mr. Eger. I am asking for none.
Mr. Ta\^nner. I think you have misquoted me.
Mr. Eger. You didn't let me finish my statement.
Mr. Moulder. The witness has been allotted 30 seconds, which have
already been consumed. We will give you 30 seconds more to answer
the question.
Mr. Eger. I decline to answer that question on the grounds as
previously stated.
Mr. Brinton. Mr. Chairman, may I address myself to the previous
question ?
Mr. Moulder. The rules prohibit counsel from addressing the com-
mittee or to engage in any argument concerning any question pro-
pounded. And the witness has declined to answer and has claimed
the privilege under the first and fifth amendments, as I understand it.
Mr. Tavenner. I take it from what you have said you are not
now a member of the Communist Party, is that correct ?
Mr. Eger. That is correct.
Mr. Tamsnner. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
the subpena was served on you for your appearance here ?
Mr. Eger. No ; I was not.
Mr. Moulder. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Eger. Mr. Moulder, I wish it were possible to answer all ques-
tions about myself without involving others, but I understand the
law states that once I open the door I must involve others. I play
a French horn. In order to play a French horn, you must keep your
head up. I couldn't live with myself or keep my head up if I got
others in trouble.
Mr. Moulder. I asked you the question. Do you decline to answer
the question ?
Mr. Brinton. Would you repeat the question, please?
Mr. Moulder. I asked him if he had ever been a member of the
Communist Party.
3954 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Eger. 1 am sorry, I must decline to answer that on the basis
that I might subject myself to prosecution and on the grounds previ-
ously stated, self-incrimination.
Mr. Tavenner. Were a^ou a member of the Communist Partv on
January 1, 1950?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Eger. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on
January 1, 1953?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Eger. The same answer, the same grounds.
Mr. Taa^enner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on
January 1, 1956 ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Eger. The same answer, the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Then sometime between January 1, 1956, and the
service of the subpena on you, you ceased to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Eger. That is an assumption that you draw, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. It is the only assumption from your testimony.
You were not a member of the Communist Party on the date that the
subpena was served on you. Is there anything that occurred that
caused you to change your status between 1948 and the time the sub-
pena was serv^ed on you for your appearance here?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Eger. I must decline to answer on the grounds of the privilege
against self-incrimination.
Mr. Taat^.nner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. Whatever the cause or factors which changed your posi-
tion or status I want to compliment you on getting into the status
where you can honestly say today that you are not a member of the
Communist Party.
I want to say this, too, and I think, Mr. Chairman, we should say to
this witness as to the circulation of these petitions in 1948 by Com-
munist Party members, the musicians group and others, to obtain
sufficient signatures from California voters to qualify the IPP as a
legal party in California, there were some 11,000 signatures obtained
in Los Angeles County, as I recall it. And I know very well that
those people had no idea that those petitions were being circulated,
as has been testified under oath tliey were, by in the main, members
of the Communist Party in California. The evidence is abundant
that the IPP in California Avas initiated, furthered, and used by the
Communist Party in California as another front to obtatin their un-
worthy objectiA^es. And I am going to assmne, as our counsel did,,
there Avas a time Avhen you Avere a member of the Communist Party.
It is tlie only assumption I can draw. And I want to com])liment you
on getting out of that giirbage can if you ever were in the garbage can.
Mr. Moulder. Any (piestioiis, Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Cliairman, I want to associate myself to a certain
degree with our distinguished colleague, from California, Mr. Doyle,
in coniplimenting the witness on having gotten out of the Communist
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3955
Party, and also upon his distinguislied counsel for the manner of rep-
resentation of his client. But I do think that we should make it very
clear that moral scruples are not a legal ground for refusing to answer
questions. It has been so found in the courts, for declining to answer
on the basis of the fifth amendment. I think we would make a very
serious mistake, Mr. Chairman, if we permitted witnesses to take the
stand to make a very limited statement respecting their own activities
and then to draw the line. The purpose of the committee, the pur-
poses of the Congress, would be defeated in such an instance.
As far as I am concerned, anyone who fails to cooperate completely
and fully with the committee has not cooperated. And I want my
position on tliat matter to be made very clear in the record.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Moulder. Is there anything further, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. Brixton. It is my understanding that the statement previously
submitted in writing will be included as a part of the record. Is that
correct ?
Mr. Moulder. It will be filed in the record. It will not become
a part of the written testimony.
Mr. Brinton. I see. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. The next witness, please.
Mr. Ta\':enner. Mr. Kalman Bloch.
Mr. Moulder. Will you please hold up your right hand and be
sworn.
Do you solenmly swear that the testimony which you are about to
^ive before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you, God ?
Mr. Bloch. I do.
TESTIMONY OF KALMAN BLOCH, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ROSE S. ROSENBERG
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Bloch. Kalman Bloch.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying Mr. Bloch please iden-
tify herself for the record?
Mrs. Rosenberg. Rose S. Rosenberg, b-e-r-g.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Will you spell both your first and last names, Mr.
Bloch?
Mr. Bloch. K-a-1-m-a-n B-1-o-c-h.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Bloch. 1913 in New York.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliere do you now reside?
Mr. Bloch. Los Angeles.
]\Ir, Tavenner. How long have you been a resident of Los Angeles?
Mr. Bloch. Since 1937.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession?
Mr. Bloch. I am a musician.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you practiced your profession since 1937 in
the area of Los Angeles?
3956 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Block. Yes. I have been solo clarinetist of the Los Angeles
Philharmonic since then.
Mr. Tavenner. Will yon tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been.
Mr. Block. Yes, sir, I will.
I studied in the New York City elementary schools. I attended
NYU for 3 years and with more supplementary education at Co-
lumbia and UCLA. I received a scholarship grant from the New
York Philharmonic which enabled me to study clarinet with the solo
clarinetist there, who was the outstanding man in his field.
I played for 4 years in the International Orchestra of New York.
I teach extensively, and was one of the first to institute the free
scholarship idea in the Los Angeles school system.
I do frequent solo and chamber music performance with leading
chamber music groups, and have appeared frequently as soloist with
the Philharmonic and Hollywood Bowl Orchestras.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Block. Oh, I said this previously but I think it goes in order
now. I have been for 19 years a solo clarinetist of the Philharmonic
and Hollywood Bowl Orchestras.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Bloch, will you state whether or not you have
any personal knowledge of an effort made by the Communist Party
in Los Angeles to induce musicians who were members of the Com-
munist Party to circulate petitions in 1948 of the Independent Pro-
gressive Party of California to place that party on the ballot?
Mr. Block. I must decline to answer that question on the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a document marked for identification
as "Kalman Bloch Exhibit No. 1."
It is a photostatic copy of an Independent Progressive Party ol
California petition, at the end of which there is an affidavit of a per-
son by the name of Kalman Bloch as the affiant. I ask you to examine
it and to state whether or not that is your name as the affiant, and
whether or not you signed the name.
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
Mr. Bloch. I must decline to answer this question on the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence, marked
"Kalman Bloch Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Moulder. The document so marked by counsel is admitted in
evidence. (Seep. 3957.)
Mr. Block. Is it not a possibility, within my rights as a citizen, to
petition at any time?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, you have a perfect right to do that.
My question was whether or not j^ou knew of the existence of a
Communist Party plan to cause you to do it.
Mr. Bivocii. I am sorry. I refer to my previous answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I would be very happy if you would explain it.
Mr. l^LocK. I still nuist refer to the previous answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the document bears the date Feb-
ruary 6, 1948, and, the affidavit, as in the other exhibits, recites that the
afliant circulated and obtained the sienatures in the document.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3957
KaIvMAn Block Exhibit No. 1
IPPC
9419
INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE PARTY OF CALIFORNIA
PETITION TO
PARTICIPATE IN THE PRIMARY ELECTION JUNE 1, 1948
CircuUud In th* County (or CHy and County) of f- (T^ /y<*ifc*-*-^ _
STATE OF CAUFORNIA. i , 1
County (or City ind County) oi t^ OU^'ijL*^ [ **"
TO THE HONORABLE SECRETAHY OF STATE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA:
W«. the undoralgnad. r*giit«r»d. qutllfiod •loctorl ol Iho Slit* oi CalUornit. roildonit of t^o
County (or City and County) of l- *n '"-y^-i-o Stale ol California. proMnI to tbo S^cnitrt
of Stat* of tho Stala of California thia Patltlon and daclara that w* rapraaant a political party, tha nam*
of wlilcfa U INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE PARTY OF CALIFORNIA, which party aald alactor* do-
•Iro to haT* partlcipata In Ihr Primary Election to be held on June I. 1948.
NAME
KESIDCNCC 1 Data of
Street and Number City or Town Signing
PrcclDct
1
2
3
Ts— ^^ — -~^^ZJI^dII~2r~~^^' — — '
L-J^^l_,_> — ■
— .^.-^^ -_-,^
,;il>- 1
^•^'^- .
STATE OF CALIFORNIA.
County (or CUt and County) of
I am, and during all the time
and registerad electo
balng first duly vwora, dapo— a and aaya:
vbila aolicitlng lignaturaa aa haralnaftar aat lorth w^
of the above named County (or City and County) oi ^J^^"*"*'
and of the State of California; I am the peraon who aoHcltad the algnatur*a to tha attachatt and fo
going Petition: all the signatures to the attached aectlon were made In my praaanca and upon tKa dat*
ahown after each signature, and at the time each atgner signed hLa name to aaid Patltlon ha alao affixed
thereto his residence as above stated, and the data of said signing, and said algnaturaa war* aoUdtad
by me within the above named County (or City and County) of .^ O UidL^^^^JL&-« ; and to
the best of my knowledge and belief, each signature to the said aectlon la the genuine slgnatura of tho
parson whose name It purports to be. ^ ^ ^^ /O /^^
Sttbacrlbad and sworn to before ma thla
'75-6-***^*^**f^^ , iM./'
Notary Public la and for tha County (or
of -err^rijf^
City and County)
State of California.
My C>^^ii ! ':cii Lxpucs June 18,t9A
/A^7
3958 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not on February 6,
1948, you were a member of branch O of the northwest section of the
Communist Party, usually referred to as the musicians branch of the
Communist Party '^
Mr. Bloch. I should like to say that this question, I think, implies
that I am disloyal and not a trustworthy citizen.
I would like to tell you about my long career as first clarinetist of
the Philharmonic Orchestra. Not only my musicianship but my moral
and ethical conduct, my loyalty, my feeling of cooperation in the
group, my devotion not only to the music but to my colleagues were
quite open for their appraisal, and I ani sure that each colleague of
mine would bear me out, would vouch for me in this, that I am a man,
that I have always been devoted to music, I abhor violence and never
in my life have I done anything I am ashamed of.
I feel that the question is a dangerous one for me to answer. So I
must rely on the fifth amendment which protects me against any
prosecution.
Mr. MoLTLDER. You decline to answer, and, as your reason for de-
clining to answer, you claim the privilege under the fifth amendment.
Is that right?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Bloch. Another really essential
Mr. Moulder. You did not answer.
As I understand, you decline to answer the question propounded by
claiming your protection provided by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Bloch. Yes.
May I take 1 minute to further complete the answer.
Mr. Jackson. I am not quite clear. You have declined to answer
on that ground. Is that correct ?
Mr. Bloch. I have declined.
Mrs. Rosenberg. May he be permitted to complete his answer ? He
says he has not yet completed.
Mr. Moulder. Hasn't he claimed the privilege ?
Mrs. Rosenberg. He has not completed his answer. May he do so,
and give his grounds?
Mr. Moulder. As I undei*stand, the witness has claimed the privi-
lege under the. fifth amendment. That just about settles it. He de-
clines to answer the question.
Mrs. Rosenberg. It may settle it, if I may say go, in your mind. The
witness would like to complete that answer.
Mr. Jackson. The regular order.
The witness claimed the provisions of the fifth amendment, and also
preceded it by considerable remarks. And I think that he was given
every opportunity to put his point across before taking the amendment.
I would ask for regular order.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavennek. I hand you a document marked "Kalman Bloch
Exhibit No. 2" for identification only.
It is a photostatic copy of an aiii<lavit of registration bearing date
the '22d day of April 1948. of a ]iei'son wliose name apjiears to be Kal-
man Blocli, sliowing an intention to affiliate with the Independent
Progressive Party. Will you examine it, please, and state whether the
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3959
name appearing there is the name of Kalman Bloch and whether it is
your signature ?
Mr. I^LOCH. Don't you feel I have the right to join any legal party
like the Progressive Party ?
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Tavenner, If it is your contention or your position that your
action in that respect had nothing to do with the Communist Party
plan which has been described in this hearing, why, of course, T assume
that you would say so. Certainly there would be nothing wrong about
it. Many other people did. But we are trying to find out the con-
nection of the Communist Party with this.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Bloch. I am sorry. I must refuse to answer on the basis of the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence, marked
"Kalman Bloch Exhibit No. 2."
Mr. Moulder. The document so marked by counsel is admitted in
evidence. (Seep. 3960.)
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, as long as the witness has asked that
question of counsel — whether or not he did not have the right to join
the Independent Progressive Party, which became a legal party — I
want the record to show at this point that I am sure I recognize the
right of any American citizen to be a member of any legal political
party. _
But in this situation there should be a differentiation because we
are investigating, Mr. Bloch, the extent to which the Communist Party
of California secretly, underground by a preconceived program, had
its members circulate these petitions without revealing to the people
whom they asked to sign the fact that it was the Communist Party
subversively doing it, to create indirectly at least a branch of the
Communist Part\^ program.
I want you, as a fellow citizen, to understand that that is the reason
in my book that you are being asked that question, because the evi-
dence clearly shows not only in this hearing but in other California
hearings by former top leaders of the IPP in California, by top officers,
that they were deliberately put in by tho Communist Party action of
California.
And, since the Communist Party has been outlawed, as defined by
Congress and the courts, as a conspiracy, we certainly have the duty to
go into the extent to which this conspiracy filtered into the political
situation in California, the same as it did in many others
Mr, Moulder. Let's have order, please.
Anyone responsible for the demonstration should be removed from
the hearing room, if the officers can properly identify the persons so
responsible.
Mr. Doyle. Including the Musicians Congress in Los Angeles,
which, under oath again, was defined as a Communist Party means of
trying to take control of the musicians branch in Los Angeles.
Mr. Bloch. Counsel, is there a question pending?
Mr. Moulder. May I ask you this question :
Much has been said — and we have heard the testimony and consid-
erable evidence regarding Communist Party control and domination
over the Independent Progressive Party.
77436— 56— pt. 10 5
3960 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
V
sil^TEMENT OF TRANSFER OR CHANGE OF NAME
1 last registered under tt^a^am« o
Kalman Block Exhibit No. 2
No.
r^s,
I last r«>1stere<^t and remov
ORIGINAL
.Precinct
I hereby authorize the cancellation of said registration. / LOS ANGELES CITY PRECINCT NO.
im:
/
\ ss.
AFFIDAVIT OF REGISTRATION.
STATE OF CALIFORNIA.
COUNTY ©F LOS ANGELES
The undersigned affiant, being duly sworn, says: 1 will !><■ .it least twcnty-onc years of age at the time of
the next succeeding election, a citizen of the United Slates ninety days prifir thereto, and a resident of the State >»
one year, of the County ninety days, and of the I'recinct forty days next preceding such election, and will b« ""
an elector of this County at the next siicceedinR ciccti'.n.- "S
1. I have not registered from any other precinct in the State since January I. IV.I^. c
(I( cpplic«n( hu »o prcviouilr rcfiitcred. m»fk twil Ihr wofd "rot" anj fill nut thr >i | f i riatr ! Unk. at th* t-p b( lb« affidcvil.) *5
2. My full name is k...A...U MAN B M Q t H £
(iDclading ChrntJM or yv" nsmr. and mt<l<Ur nam* of milikl. mnA .i. tl>r r
3. My residence is 3^J.lL 5L?<?'?Z-^-^^'^ . (M'L'
- ( N>nu MTtil or ttud. II tfmoir Irmi 1 ..ik. iSrn n.. "Wt . Twp . »nd Kin,
ide
between.^
My mailing address is. 3^/1/ J^.A^Ci^V-ftCt^^ CiV^
4. My occupation is ^/T/t
5 My height is J feet /..
6. I was bom in
quc«tu>fi Nn. 7.)
I acquired citi7Lcn?;hip by {Y h'"h"°n^iti"»"i..i
(Undrrlint mclheiH r,( «cquii.n» / Mclhfr'. n.lurjl.i
cititenship.) ' c Ciiiirviihiii of lathi
I'loor. Room
<). I inteiKJ 111 aflili.iie at the ensuing _2>
priiii.irv election with the ^
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C A N C E L^L F. ~
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My
(MuitlhJ (Uw)
name is (was).
( where 1
hiubuid'i (To b« «llc<l O.I »k™ c.t.ini.liip df p»i.d. ....
I can read the Constitution in the Mnplish l.-»ni,'ii:it;f ; I i.in writf my name; I am rnlitled to vote
by reason of having; been on Octoln r 10, 191 1 | '. J,'
I can mark my ballot by reason of
marK n\y imiiui ity ira>«Mi mi
al Ji.ilnlilr. il anr I
Subscribeil iiii'l swurn t.. bcfiire me this
-...-2.2. day of 1^2^J^UJ
M J. DONiOClIUli. IWisirarof i
. io4gr:.
crs,
Deputy Registrar of X'oters.
. 926478/
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3961
Do you have any information or knowledge concerning the plans
or activities of the Communist Party or any of its leaders or agents
to create, dominate, or control the Independent Progressive Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Bloch. I refuse to answer, claiming the first and fifth.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party at this
time ?
Mr, Bloch. I am going to answer that question. However, I feel
that such a question, that inquires into one's political and religious
beliefs, is an infringement on my right as a loyal American citizen.
Mr. Moulder. Of course, we are not inquiring into your religious
beliefs, Mr. Bloch.
Mr. Bloch. No. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. Or your political beliefs either.
Mr. Jackson. Nor your political beliefs either.
Mrs. Rosenberg. May this witness be permitted to answer that
question ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes ; the witness may proceed to answer the question.
Mr. Bloch. Also, in view of my long-standing association with
the Los Angeles Philharmonic, and especially on the eve of their
good-wiirtour to the Orient, could it not have come about that these
questions be asked me in private?
Why such an open forum ?
So that the philharmonic could receive unnecessary criticism?
Mr. Jackson. The philharmonic is receiving no criticism. No one
has suggested a single word of criticism.
Mr. Bloch. I didn't mean to use the word "criticism." I am sorry.
I meant publicity.
Mr. Jackson. Very well.
I don't know that the philharmonic orchestra has received any
unfavorable publicity. The fact that there may have been in the
orchestra several individuals previously identified as members of the
Communist Party, under oath by witnesses, in no way reflects upon
the philharmonic orchestra. Nor could the board of directors have
been expected to have known the presence of members of the Commu-
nist Party in the philharmonic.
The effort to bring the philharmonic into this is crystal clear as an
effort to confuse the situation.
Mr. Bloch. I am not trying to confuse the situation.
I feel this, that the symphony being a community organization
Mr. ScHERER. Wait a minute. Regular order.
Mrs. Rosenberg. Mr. Chairman, the witness said he wanted to
answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. Let's have order. Please let us have order.
The gracious lady knows the rules of the committee. Is there a
question pending, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. He has answered the last question I asked him.
Mrs. Rosenberg. He has not answered the last question, Mr.
Chairman.
May I request, on behalf of my client, that he be permitted to
answer the question ?
It is a simple request to make. You asked him to come here and
talk, and he would like to.
3962 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Jackson. In accordance with the rules of the committee, I
would ask that on the occasion of the next remark by counsel directed
to any member of the committee or counsel, she be requested to leave
the room with her client, if necessary.
Mr. Blocii. I will just take 10 seconds and give you a satisfactory
answer to this question.
I felt strongly about the publicity that may have been given to
the philharmonic.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I want regular order. The question
is, Is he a member of the Communist Party now? He can answer
that or take the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Bloch. I feel strongly about my reputation in the philharmonic.
Mr. Scherer. We agree that it is, as you state, a very fine reputation.
You can help it by answering the question.
Mrs. Rosenberg. May he be permitted to do so ?
Mr. Moulder. The question is whether or not the witness is now a
member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Bloch. No.
Mr. Tavenner. That is the question.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed and move along.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you made application to the State Department
for a passport to travel in a foreign country ?
Mr. Bloch. Yes, I have.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you make that application ?
Mr. Bloch. With the entire philharmonic group about 2 months
ago.
Mr. Tavenner. About 2 months ago ?
Were you a member of the Communist Party at that time?
Mr. Block. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the passport issued to you ?
Mr. Bloch. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you still have it?
Mr. Bloch. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. How long before you made the application did you
cease to be a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Bloch. A false assumption.
I refuse to answer the question on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party the day
before you made the application ?
You said you were not a member of the Communist Party on the day
you made application for passport, because in that passport the ques-
tion is asked whether or not you are a member of the Communist
Party, and I assume that you answered that question "No."
I am asking whether or not you were a member of the Communist
Party the day before you made the application?
Mr. Bloch. No.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party a month
before you made the application ?
Mr. Bloch. No.
Mr. Scherer. A year before ?
Mr. Bloch. No.
Mr. Scherer. Two years before ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3963
Mr. Bloch. Restate your question.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you a member of the Communist Party 2 years
prior to making your application for passport?
Mr. Bloch, No.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it 3 years before ?
Mr. Bloch. Excuse me. May I consult with counsel ?
Mr. ScHERER. Certainly.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Bloch. Would you make your question specific ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes.
Were you a member of the Communist Party 3 years before you
made application for the recent passport which we have been discuss-
ing 'i
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Bloch. No.
Mr. Scherer. Were you 4 years before that a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Bloch. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you advise the State Department that you had
been a member of the Communist Party when you applied for pass-
port?
Mr. Bloch. False
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr, Bloch. The State Department never asked me.
Strike that.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Bloch. I claim the first
I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Scherer. The fact is that you were asked, in making the ap-
plication for passport, whether you had ever been a member of the
Communist Party or not ?
Mrs. Rosenberg. Are you on the witness stand, Mr. Scherer?
He was not asked that question.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I ask that counsel be asked to leave
the stand.
Mr. Bloch. I think I need her support. Could I request that
she remain?
Mr. Jackson. I have given due notice what I intended to do. There
have been altogether too many outbreaks from counsel.
Mr. Bloch. I will answer more directly in the future. Could she
remain?
Mr. Jackson. I am going to press my position.
Mr. Moulder. As I understand it, the gentleman from California,
Mr. Jackson, moves that counsel
And witness?
Mr. Jackson. And the witness as far as I am concerned. He is
an uncooperative witness.
Mr. Moulder. Be excused and removed from the witness stand.
Mr. Jackson. Excused from the witness stand. I won't ask re-
moval.
3964 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
I ask that they be excused.
Mr. Moulder. Do I hear objection from any member of the com-
mittee ?
(There was no response.)
Mr. Moulder. Therefore, the witness and counsel are
Mr. Bloch. Mr. Moulder, I really take exception to Mr. Jack-
son's remark that I am uncooperative.
Mr. Jackson. You may take exception to my remark that you are
uncooperative. I consider you to be completely uncooperative.
Mr. Moulder. "Witness and counsel are excused from the witness
stand for failure to abide by the committee rules in their conduct be-
fore the committee.
Call your next witness, please, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Jack Pepper.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you
are about to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Pf-i'pI'-R. I do, Mr. Chairman.
TESTIMONY OF JACK (L.) PEPPEE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
RICHARD L. RYKOFF
Mr. Ta\t:nner. '\'Vniat is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Pepper. Jack Pepper, P-e-p-p-e-r.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have a middle name ?
Mr. Pepper. Only one I assumed in a moment of foolishness when
I was in junior high school. I liked the name of Lawrence. It is
not legal, and I use it today sometimes to identify myself from other
Jack Peppers in this particular vicinity.
Mr. Tavenner. So you use the name Jack L. Pepper ?
Mr. Pepper. Only, sliall we sa}', sometimes in a legal sense.
Mr. Scherer. He said he is known as Lawrence Pepper.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Pepper. No.
Mr. Scherer. I misunderstood you.
Mr. Pepper. No. I am known as Jack Pepper.
Mr. Scherer. What did you say about Lawrence? I misunder-
stood you.
Mr. Pepper. I assumed that name when I was in junior liigh school.
I believe I thought that probably I should have a middle name for
the year book or some such stupid reason. However, I found it
convenient because there was another Jack Pepper recently; 1 mean
in the last 10 years, whose identity has become mixed with mine.
Thoi-efore, I have used the name "L'' or the initial "L" for purposes
of identification.
Mr. Tavenner. AVill counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tif}' himself for the recoi'd ^
Mr. Rykoff. Richard Rykoff.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Pepper?
(Representative Donald I. Jackson returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Pei*per. Philadelphia, Pa., in the year 1910.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3965
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?
Mr. Pepper. Los Angeles,
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in Los Angeles?
Mr. Pepper. On and off, I would say, since I was 4 or 5 years old.
T liave gone back Pjast several times for schooling.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession?
Mr. Pepper. Musician.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in the practice of
your profession in Los Angeles?
Mr. Pepper. Well, I think a very good answer is one given yester-
day — since I Avas 5 years old.
Mr. Tavenner. AVill you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been.
Mr. Pepper. Well, the usual kindergartens and secondary schools.
1 went to high school, here in Los Angeles. I was given a scholar-
ship by PFoward Hanson and Eugene (xoossens — that is spelled
G-o-o-s-s-e-n-s, a very eminent English conductor — to the University
of Rochester, and that is, Eastman School of Music. There I re-
mained for 2 years, I would say, in a period prior to 1930. At any
rate, I played in the Rochester Philharmonic then, and from that
])oijit on I went to the Curtis Institute where I studied violin with
Leopold Auer, A-u-e-r. At any rate, he taught Heifetz and a few of
the other favored musicians today.
I graduated from this institution and came back to Los Angeles
where I was a member of the Los Angeles Philharmonic. After that
time I went into the studio work, and, subsequent to the war — I would
say 2 or 3 years — I was asked to join the Coolidge Quartet, which is
a rather famous quartet. Probably in Washington you may have
heard of this. We were commissioned by the Library of Congress
to play in all the universities, including State iniiversities, in the
country. AVe were commissioned to play new American works, which
we did. And I was with them until the time that I volunteered for
the Army, which was in 1942, 1 believe.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you serve in the Army ?
Mr. Pepper. Three years.
Mr. Tavenner. Proceed.
Mr. Pepper. Do you wish to know more about the Army days?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, if there is any information you desire to give
the committee.
Mr. Pepper. It has to do with my musical experience, I suppose.
A year spent with the Army Air Forces, and finally tranferred to
the Armed Forces Radio Service where we were responsible for the
making of })rograms sent overseas — Command Performance, Mail
Call, Jubilee, At Ease, and all the things which you may liave heard
about.
After having left the Army, being discharged some 3 years later,
I did studio work under contract to several studios. Or two studios.
And at the present time I am a free-lance musician.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Pepper, you were living in Los Angeles in 1948 ;
Avere you not ?
Mr. Pepper. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And did you, in 1948, have personal knowledge of
a plan of the Communist Party to use musicians who had joined an
organized group of the Communist Party to circulate the Independent
3966 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Progressive Party petition to put that party on the ballot in the
State of California ?
Mr, Pepper. I refuse to answer that question for the following rea-
sons : on the grounds of the first amendment, which states that Con-
gress shall not abridge the rights of the people in the field of ideas,
beliefs, opinions, or associations.
The purpose of the committee is infringement of the right, or these
rights, and I believe the objective is illegal.
Secondly, on the basis of the fourth amendment, at least that por-
tion of the fourth amendment which declares the right of a people
to be secure in their persons, secure from unreasonable searches.
And this to me
Of course, I am not a legal man.
However, this to me, means just what it says.
I feel that in this case the amendment is being violated because pri-
vacy of my thought and privacy of my associations are being violated.
Further, the third reason I refuse to testify is that under the fifth
amendment I am accorded the privilege of refusing to give testi-
mony which may be used against me at some future time.
These privileges do exist for the innocent, and I assert these rights
to prevent their destruction, gentlemen.
My last and final reason is on that provision of the fifth amend-
ment which provides that no man shall be deprived of life, liberty, or
property and, gentlemen, my property is the creation of music, and
I am going to fight for my right to work.
I do protest the economic and social sanctions that are imposed be-
cause of this committee, imposed on those witnesses who are unfriendly
to the committee's unconstitutional aims.
Mr. Jackson. Regular order, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Tavennee. I hand you a document marked for identification
only as "Jack L. Pepper Exhibit No. 1."
It is a photostatic copy of an Independent Progressive Party of
California petition, at the end of which there is an affidavit bearing
the name, as the affiant, Jack L. Pepper. I ask you whether or not your
name appears as the affiant on that petition, and whether it was signed
by you ?
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Pepper. I will refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated, that it is an invasion of my rights.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence marked
as "Jack L. Pepper Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Doyle (presidin<>;) . It will be so received.
(This exhibit is similar to Kalman Bloch exhibit No. 1, p. 3957, and
will not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the
committee's records.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the affidavit bears the date of Janu-
ary 81, 1948, over the signature of Jack L. Pepper. The affidavit
states tliat the affiant solicited the signatures therein set forth.
"Wliere did you live, Mr. Pepper, in 1948?
Mr. Pepper. May I ask the materiality of that question, sir?
Mr. Tavenner. No; just answer tlie question, or refuse to'answer it
and take your chances on whether it is nuiterial or not.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3967
Mr. Pepper. In that case, I shall certainly decline to answer the
■question on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever live at 1501 Murray Drive, Los
Angeles 26, Calif . ?
Mr. Pepper. I believe you heard my statement. I think it is on
the record.
Mr. Doyle. That is not the same question, sir.
Mr. Pepper. It is not ?
Mr. Doyle. He asked you v^here you lived and you pleaded the
amendment. Now he asked you if you lived at a specific address.
Mr. Pepper. As far as I am concerned, that is the same question.
However, I shall be happy to decline to answer that question for the
same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Pepper. Same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. You refuse to answer for the same reasons ?
Mr. Pepper. Yes; I decline to answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions ?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Jean Musick.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. MusiCK. Yes ; I do.
TESTIMONY OF JEAN C. MTJSICK, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
RICHARD L. RYKOFF
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ?
Mr. Musick. Jean Musick.
Mr. Ta\ti:nner. Do 3'ou have a middle initial ?
Mr. Musick. C.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name ?
Mr. Musick. M-u-s-i-c-k.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself?
Mr. Rykoff. Richard Rykoff.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Musick?
Mr. Musick. I was born in 1910 in Colorado.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Musick. In Newport Beach, Calif.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have 3- ou resided in California ?
Mr. Musick. Since 1938.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ?
Mr. Musick. I am a musician.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you engaged in the practice of your
profession in California ?
Mr. Musick. Since I came here in 1938.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly, what
your formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Musick. My primary and secondary education were the usual
ones in Colorado. I was given a scholarship at the University of
3968 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Rochester, Eastman School of Music, in Rochester, N. Y. I attended
this scholarship for 4 years, during which time I earned my way, my
living expenses through school, I earned my expenses for school plus
the aid that the scholarship allowed me for expenses at the school
itself.
During the 4 years in Mhich I retained the scholarship I was an
honor student scholastically. I was chairman of my class for 3 of
those 4 years, and during the first 3 years I completed 4 years of school-
ing with the exception of 6 academic hours which I took at summer
session, giving me my bachelor of music degree.
During my fourth year of scholarship I pursued graduate studies
and completed all of the work for my master's degree, with the excep-
tion of the writing of the thesis which I did during the following year,
and received my degree in 1933.
Since that time T liave pursued the study of my profession privately,
and occasionally had course in extension at the university, classes in
various things.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a document bear-
ing date March 23, 1948, purportedly signed by you and marked for
identification only as "Jean C. Musick Exhibit No. 1." Will you look
at it, please, and tell me what it is (
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Rykoff. Would you repeat the question, Mr. Tavenner?
What is the pending question ?
Mr. Tavenner. The question was: Will you look at the document
and tell us what it is I
(The witness confers with his comisel.)
Mr. MtJSiCK. Yes. During my schooling I did learn how to read
so I can say what the document is.
Mr. Ta\T':nner. What is it i
Mr. Musick. It is a declaration of candidacy.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. For what 'I
Mr. Musick. For the Independent Progressive Party.
Mr. Tavenner. What position ?
Mr. Musick. Member of the County Central Committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Whose declaration of candidacy 'I
Mr. Musick. Mr. Tavenner and Mr. Chairman, I decline to identify
the document further than that on the basis of the tirst and fifth amend-
ments of the Constitution.
Mr. Tavennek. Is it not a fact that there appears on the bottom
of the document the name Jean C. Musick I
Mr. Musick. I desire to decline to answer that question on the
same grounds as the former one.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you sign your name to that document?
Mr. Musick. I also decline to answer that question on the same
grounds, if you please.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to introduce in evidence the document
marked "Jean C. INIusick Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Moulder. The document so marked will be admitted into evi-
dence as requested by counsel.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3969
Jean C. Musick Exhibit Xo. 1
Torm N«. II.
DECLARATION OF CANDIDACY
By Candidate for Member of County Central Committee
(•mUcs IMl. EIkUou Co4»)
I hereby declare myseli mV'^yl^^l^^!^^
of Member of County Central Committee 7^}
be voted for at the primary election to be held
following to be true:
My name is.
My
Party candidate for election to the office
district to
/
l9..Z..^and declare the
(2 ^^^^
present residen<» is....^/.«vy' 6~1^.^v*<iv'*<;^»-7 ^3-^ii
My present occupation is ^'•3»>'-6<5'i-fc--ot--«e-v,,_^
My present business address is
n
The name ui my employer (if any) is
The address of my employer (if any) is
My occupation for the past three jcars has been as follows
The duration of my residence in California is //«*<. , j/y>*!<^ years.
I have been a citizen of the United States for ..<>r'r>>-<-fr ...."^rirTrrTrW. years.
My address ior the past five years has been as follows:
1 /fvcr-- ^ y..f.. ^ - j;tz:.
I am at present an incumbent of the following public office (if any):
f^Wi %%. II- Itc thit ror« No U lo connfctiuo wlUi rorou !• «b4 IS
3970 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Jean C. Musick Exhibit No. 1 — Continued
Examined and certified by me this jd5.t)x day of. Mftr.Q.h , 19...AS.
By „....^
Deputy Registrar of Voters.
This document wlUi til blanks thcrt-ln nUcd In tn he ilrlhrrccl at lean nlxly-flvo dayx prior to the DIrert primary clertlon tn the Redrtrar of Votan
•f tlic rounty wherein the raiidliiate re^idt^*. .Such ReeUtrar ahall Ihurcupon vxamhic, mark, certify and file the ume. lo Iho puimer and wtthlD Iha Umt
inquired by Uv. (SocUona U2l. 263:, Electloni Code.)
Wlita th* tf«elaraUti af caatfldacy ii nad* by the candidate, um tlilt Form No. 11. and la eeaatetloa tkerawlth uii Ftr«« Ntt. 10 utf 12.
CANDIDATE'S REQUEST FOR STATEMENT OF OCCUPATION TO APPEAR ON BALLOT
NOTE: THE USE OF THIS REQUEST I& OPTIONAL WITH THE CANDIDATE.
In accordance with the provisions of Section 3819 of the Elections Code, I, the undersigned, candidate
for the office in this Declaration mentioned, hereby request that there be placed immediately under my
name upon the ballot for the election therein referred to, the words or designation " —
(Signed).
Sctllon 3H19 of the Elections Cod*; i>rovl«:cs ns f"llo»a: , ^
••••••Immediately under ttie name of ladi raiiOkilKic and nut icparated therefrom by any line may appear, at the option of the candidate, ooe of tbt
tTolloKlng de^ilenatlona :
(nl WnrU-t df-tiKiiatltiR the rity. r.niiilv. dl-^trlrt or Slate offlre which the randlda*e then holds.
In ad'Htlon lo the rorvgMiiic. nit-mrK-rs of thv Senate of the NtAle of CaiHornla may use cither of the foPr-wlne dr^lcnallons : "Slate Senatrir. ..^
SH^tlrlrt. t ttliroriila I.eiclslaturo" ur ' Mcmher of I'lllfurnla SL-nule, Dlttrkt." or any oUier ai jToiirlaU- Jcjltfimtlun, the blanks lo be filled wltk
OJie ai>i>rot>rlaie dlstrkl number.
Himbvra of the Aiwembly may use rliher of the followlns dcslimatlonn : "Assemblyman Dlxtrlrt. rallfornla Lesltlaliire" or "Merat>er of tat
j^ueoib)}. District. Callfurnla Ltnlslature." or any other apcroprlale designation, the blanks to be rilled with the appropriate district number.
(b) If the candidate be a candidate fur thn same office which he then Imldfi, and only In that event, the word "IncumbenL"
(c» Words de^Unatlng Ihc profennlon. vrt<.itlon or o- ciii-atlon of ihc candidate which shall not eicecd three In number. The profession. Tocatloa or
- Rhall t>e the aatnu as ai>|)cari lu Iho affidavit of reslslratlon uf th9 candidate. No candidate aball aaaume a dealcnatlon wtalck
CERTIFICATE AS TO OCCUPATION IN AFFIDAVIT OF REGISTRATION
State of California, | „
County of Los Angeles I
I hereby certify that the profession, vocation or occupation as designated in the affidavit of registration
Mu3 1.C 1.CIT1
of the above named candidate now in my office is ..., ——
M i) S / c I A fJ
Dated this ?5*^...day of y^^F.9.}}. 19.
46
y^y Regiifr* of Voters.
NOTC:— This form of certlflcmte !■ only for u»e where • designation other than "Incumbent" U uied by the cin d t d« t ».
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3971
Jean C. Mttsick Exhibit No. 1 — Continued
I have held the following public offices (if any):
— ..- - for years,
.— for years,
— _ for years,
— ~ ^^ for years.
I am registered as affiliated with the..»Vs^)reA#r:.j/!>^^ Party.
(Ito w i M <i > l MAT km Ifiaarl, at M« oi><laa. !■ not over tXtly wordi, ft sU;e«Benl at what ht raniU<feni lA be his sl>«fial ntnraj, tralnlBf cr uparieaet IB
tkl Ua« of wort which h« «IU b« rmllvd utKxi to porrorm Id r*m al hla oUctloa.)
I will qualify for that office if elected.
.\>5
£...S<<^.JK.
, Signature of Candidate.
STATE OF CALIFORNIA.
County of....Q&? jftr.*^\JX<^. ^
™„...I.™.. ^1 .>^. .,1
rz^j4>.....<r. Ik^i^.
Notary Public (or other official).
»»y Cdmn.h$ion Ex;,Vc: .3„. jj, 1951
3972 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Moulder. First may I say that it is a photostatic copy of the
document. You did not sign that document. You could truthfully
answer that, couldn't you, one way or the other ?
Mr. MusiCK. I undei-stand.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. There is a statement in this document, which I read :
I am registered as affiliated with the Independent Progressive Party.
Were you so registered on March 23, 1948 ?
(The witness confers wath his counsel.)
Mr. MusicK. Mr. Tavenner, I decline to answer that question on the
same grounds as previously stated, and for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner, You actually became a member of the State central
committee; did you not?
Mr. MusicK. Would you repeat the question ?
IMr. Tavenner. You actually became a member of the State central
committee of the Independent Progressive Party ; did you not ?
Mr. MusiCK. I believe the document showed it was titled a county
central committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Thank you for correcting me. It is Los Angeles.
Mr. MusiCK. I will decline to answer that question on the same
basis for the same reasons as the former one, for the same subject.
Mr. Taa^nner. If that document speaks the truth, it shows that you
aspired at least to become a member of the Los Angeles County Central
Committee of the Independent Progressive Party. From that infor-
mation and other information in the hands of the committee, which it
has received in the form of sworn testimony before the committee, you
should be in a position to give this committee important facts relat-
ing to the plan of the Communist Party in 1948 to use musicians who
were members of the Communist Party to promote the interests of
the Independent Progressive Party.
Will you give us the benelit of such information as you have ?
Mr. MusiOK. Mr. Tavenner and Mr. Chairman, I must decline to
answer that question on the basis of the first and fifth amendments, as
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a document marked for identification
only as "Jean C. Musick Exhibit No. 2."
It is a photostatic copy of a petition of the Independent Progressive
Party, at the end of Avhich appears an affidavit over the signature of
Jean C. Musick, bearing date of January 31, 1948. I ask you whether
or not that is your signature as the affiant in that affidavit.
(Document handed to witness and his counsel.)
Mv. Tavenner. It is on the last page.
Mr. Musick. Mr. Tavenner, I decline to identify the petition or the
signature on tlie grounds as previously stated.
INIr. Tavenner. I offer the document in evidence marked "Jean C.
Musick Exhibit No. 2."
Mr. MoiTLDER. Without objection, it is so ordered.
(This exhibit is similar to Kalman Block exhibit No. 1, p. 3957, and
will not be repi'oduced in the printed record. It is on file in the com-
mittee's records.)
( Document returned to Mr. Tavenner.)
Ml-. Tavenner. The document is dated January 31, 1948.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3973
On that day were you a member of branch O of the northwest sec-
tion of the Communist Party, sometimes referred to as the Musicians
J^ranch of the Communist Party ?
Mr. MusiCK. I wish to decline to answer that question on the basis
of the constitutional grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenxer. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. MusicK. I wish to decline to answer that question on the same
(grounds.
Mr. Tavenxer. I have no further questions.
Mr. ^Moulder. Any questions, ]Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jacksox. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Do you liave a question, ]Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. SciiERER. Mr. Musick, you have refused to answer the pertinent
(juestions asked by Mr. Tavenner on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment. You have invoked your privilege under the fifth amendment in
i-ef using to answer those questions, and I think you have invoked it
j)roperly. By invoking the fifth amendment 3'ou have said that you
did not want to answer the questions because j'ou, in good faith,
felt that if you answered those questions, those answers might tend to
incriminate you, might result in some ])rosecution in the future.
But as Mr. Tavenner said, we feel that you, in particular, have
some information that would be vei'y heli)ful to the connnittee. Now
llie law is that this connnittee may grant you immunity, with the ap-
proval of a Federal court. In other words, we may say to you that
no matter what your answers are to the questions asked you cannot
be prosecuted, you cannot l)e incriminated. The law gives this com-
mittee that right.
Now, if this committee should grant you immunity so that no matter
what answers you gave to the ([uestions pro])ounded, you could not Im
prosecuted, would you then answer the questions we ask you?
Mr. MusiCK. Excuse me, 1 don't believe I know your name.
Mr. Scherer. Scherer. Yoii may want to consult with your coun-
sel before answering that question.
Mr. Musick. I am sure my covmsel will know the proper tilings to
say, but I feel
Mr. Scherer. That is the reason I say if you want to you should
consult with him.
Mr. MusiCK. I feel this is a matter of conjecture. It doesn't exist
and at this time I am not in a position to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. I wanted to know, because if the committee should
decide to grant you innnunity, it requires considerable etfort and time.
You have said the only reason you are not answering the question
is because you fear some prosecution. If that fear of prosecution
is removed wouldn't you be willing to tell what you knew ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Musick. Mr. Scherer, I did not use the word ''fear" in any of
my reasons in declining. I do not liaA^e fear. I stated my grounds
that the Constitution
Mr. Scherer. That is what the fifth amendment says, that you in
good faith feel — that means fear — feel that to answer the questions
might incriminate you. You fear prosecution.
3974 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. MusiCK. My understanding of semantics is that there is a
difference between the words "fear" and "feel." And that is the only
reason I mention it.
Mr. ScHERER. If you don't fear prosecution, the fear that you might
be prosecuted, then of course it doesn't seem that you are invoking the
fifth amendment in good faith.
Mr. MusicK. I am invoking the fifth amendment in good faith, but
the additional reason is contained in the first amendment, that I feel
that the inquiry is beyond the sphere of
Mr. ScHERER. Of course, that has been already established, that the
inquiry concerning your Communist membership and any knowledge
you might have of subversive activities is certainly within the scope
of this committee, and that is well established. There is no basis
for that.
That is all I have. I just wanted to see whether these witnesses are
actually invoking the fifth amendment in good faith, if they actually
fear or feel that they might be prosecuted as a result of any informa-
tion they might give the committee. I can't understand, if that
threat of prosecution or possibility of prosecution is removed, why
any citizen should not say, who invokes the fifth amendment, "Why>
certainly, I will answer.''
Mr. Jackson. Can't you really understand or are you
Mr. ScHERER. I really understand.
Mr. Jackson. Or are you being naive ?
Mr. ScHERER. I really understand, Mr. Jackson, but in some cases —
I am not saying in this one — it is evident that the fifth amendment
is not invoked in good faith. There is actually no fear or feeling of
prosecution. It is just an unwillingness to cooperate. And the fifth
amendment is used for that purpose.
Mr. Moulder. Any further questions ?
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. No further questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
May I inquire, Mr. Tavenner, how many more witnesses do we have
for this afternoon ?
Mr. Tavenner. I believe four.
Mr. Moulder. Let's proceed to call the next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Manuel Newman.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you
are about to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Newman. I do.
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer left the hearing room at this
point.)
TESTIMONY OF MANUEL NEWMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ROBEET KENNY
Mr. Tavenner. Are you Mr. Manuel Newman ?
Mr. Newman. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record?
Mr. Kenny. Robert Kenny, Los Angeles.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3975
Mr, Ta\^nner. Is N-e-w-m-a-n the proper spelling of your name ?
Mr. Newman. Rio;ht.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Newman ?
Mr. Newman. Born in 1916, Buffalo, N. Y.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Newman. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided here ?
Mr. Newman. Since approximately 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you live prior to 1946 ?
Mr. Newman. Army barracks.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you in the Armed Forces ?
Mr. Newman. For approximately 3 years.
Mr. TA^^:NNER. Where did you live prior to your enlistment ?
Mr. Newman. Oklahoma City.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you live there ?
Mr. Newman. Approximately 2 years.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ?
Mr. Newman. I am a violinist.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you practiced your profession in Los Angeles
since 1946 ?
Mr. Newman, Yes, I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that the occasion for your being in Oklahoma
City ? Were you engaged in the practice of your profession in Okla-
homa City ?
Mr. Newman. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner, Prior to your enlistment ?
Mr, Newman. I may add I have been engaged in my profession as
long as I can remember being an adult, and before, perhaps.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you tell the committee, please, what your
educational training has been ?
Mr. Newman. Well, primary and secondary education. I attended
the University of Rochester and Eastman School of Music on a schol-
arship, where I graduated and did postgraduate work, I graduated
with a bachelor's degree and did some postgi^aduate work and was
awarded an artisfs diploma. And I have studied violin on and off
ever since up until very recently. And that is my life work.
Mr. Tavenner. After you began the practice of your profession
in Los Angeles, did you join an organized group of the Communist
Party composed almost exclusively of members of the musicians*
profession ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Newman, I respectfully decline to answer that question on the
grounds of the first amendment supplemented by the fifth,
Mr, Tavenner. As a member of the Musicians Branch of the Com-
munist Party, were you directed to circulate a petition of the Inde-
pendent Progressive Party of California in 1948 ?
Mr. Newman. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a document marked for identification
only as "Manuel Newman Exhibit No. 1."
It is a photostatic copy of an Independent Progressive Party peti-
tion which has an affidavit at the end of it over the name of Manuel
Newman.
77436— 56— pt. 10 6
3976 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Will you examine the signature of the affiant in the affidavit on the
last page and state wliether or not you signed the document?
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
Mr. Newman. I decline to answer all questions pertaining to this
document on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your answer?
Mr. Newman. My answer was the same declination for the same
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer the document in evidence, Manuel Newman
exhibit No. 1.
Mr. Moulder. The document marked "Manuel Newman Exhibit
No. 1" is admitted into evidence.
(This exhibit is similar to Kalman Bloch exhibit No. 1, p. 3957,
and will not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the
committee's records.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the affidavit referred to at the end
of the document, over the name of Manuel Newman, bears date of
January 24, 1948, and in the affidavit is recited that Manuel Newman
solicited the signatures thereon. I hand you a document marked for
identification only as "Manuel Newman Exhibit No. 2".
It is a photostatic copy of an Affidavit of Registration bearing date
of April 6, 1948, and I will ask you whether or not you executed that
affidavit as an affiliate of the Independent Progressive Party.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
Mr. Newman. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the document
marked "Manuel Newman Exhibit No. 2.''
Mr. Moulder. The document marked "Manuel Newman Exhibit No.
2" is admitted in evidence.
(This exhibit is similar to the Kalman Bloch exhibit No. 2, p. 3960,
and will not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the
committee's records.)
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party at this
time?
Mr. Newman. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Connnunist Party at the
time the subpena was served on you for your appearance before this
committee ?
Mr. Newman. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner, Were you a member of the Communist Party
yesterday ?
Mr. Newman. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. I have complimented all the other witnesses who were
able to say under oath that they were not now members of the Com-
munist Party, and I conq:)liment you on being able to say under oath
that you are not now a member.
May I ask this: As far as you know now have you any feeling in
you of moral compulsion, or is there any reason why you should feel
under any obligation, pressure, or duty to unite with the (^ommunist
l^arty at anv time in the future?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3977
Mr. Newman. May I answer that in my own way?
I would like to say that at this time my entire thoughts and in-
tentions circulate around providing for my family in the future, and
I think that would take up all of my energies and thoughts.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. Questions, Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. Newman. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Koy Frankson.
Mr. Moulder, Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you
are about to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Frankson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EOY FRANKSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ROBERT KENNY
Mr. Tavenner. "VVliat is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Frankson. Roy Frankson.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by the same
counsel who accompanied the preceding witness.
Mr. Kenny. It is so stipulated.
Mr. Tavenner. Is tliat right ?
Mr. Kenny. We will stipulate the same counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Frankson ?
Mr. Frankson. In Minnesota, 1898.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside i
Mr, Frankson. In Glendale.
Mr. Tavenner. California?
Mr. Frankson. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in California ?
Mr, Frankson. Since 1928 or 1929.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession?
Mr. Frankson, I have been a musician all mj^ life,
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your for-
mal educational training has been?
Mr. Frankson. Public schools in the countrj- in Minnesota in a
small town; Minneapolis School of Music; Chicago Musical College;
the School of Musical Art, New York ; Institute of Musical Art in
New York, which is now Juilliard School. From that time on its
been professional work,
Mr, Ta\-enner, Marked for identification only as "Roy Frankson
Exhibit No. 1,*' I hand you a photostatic copy of a petition of the
Independent Progressive Party of California at the end of which
appears an affidavit. Will you examine the affidavit and state whether
or not you are the affiant named therein and whether the name was
signed by you?
(Tlie witness confers with his counsel,)
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel,)
Mr, Frankson, I decline and refuse to answer that question, sir,
on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments,
Mr, Tavenner, Mr, Chairman, I desire to offer in evidence, the
document marked "Roy Frankson Exhibit No. 1.''
3978 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so admitted as requested by
counsel.
(This exhibit is similar to the Kalman Bloch exhibit No. 1, p. 3957,
and will not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the
committee's records.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the document bears the date of Jan-
uary 16, 1948, and, as in other similar documents, the affidavit states
that the signatures were solicited by the affiant, whose name is Roy
Frankson.
Mr. Moulder. Do you wish to deny or affirm or make any comment
upon the statement made by counsel concerning the document?
Mr. Frankson. I wish to rely on the fifth and first amendments.
Mr. Moulder. All right.
Mr. Frankson. In all instances.
Mr. Tamsnner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether on
January 16, 1948, the date of that document, you were a member of
branch O of the northwest section of the Communist Party?
Mr. Frankson. The answer is the same, the fifth and first amend-
ments.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a document marked for identification
only as "Roy Frankson Exhibit No. 2." It is a photostatic copy of
an affidavit of registration bearing date of 29th day of March 1951,
indicating that the name of the affiant, Roy Frankson, was affiliated
at that time with the Independent Progressive Party. Will you
examine it, please?
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state whether the name of the affiant
on that document is your name and whether you signed it?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Frankson. I refuse under the same conditions and the same
amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer in evidence the document marked "Roy
Frankson Exhibit No. 2."
Mr. Moulder. The document is so admitted as requested by counsel.
(This exhibit is similar to Kalman Bloch exhibit No. 2, p. 3960, and
will not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the com-
mittee's records.)
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever use the name "Bob Henderson ?"
Mr. Frankson. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds
of the same question, the same grounds, the same amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you reside in 1937 ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Frankson. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Frankson. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. No questions.
Mr. Jackson. No questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. The question hasn't been asked you, wliich is the
$64 question : Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Frankson. I refuse to answer that, too.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3979
Mr. Moulder. The same grounds?
Mr. Frankson. On the same grounds.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. Taa^nner. Herbert Lessner.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Moulder. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn ?
Do 3^ou solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give
before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Lessner. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HERBERT LESSNER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BEN MARGOLIS
Mr. Lessxer. I would, if I may, like to inject this into the record.
I have a copy here, if that is permissible.
Mr. Moulder. Yes ; the statement which you have prepared will be
filed as a part of the committee's record.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Lessner. Herbert Lessner — L-e-s-s-n-e-r.
Mr, Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record ?
Mr. Margolis. Ben ]Margolis, Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Lessner?
Mr. Lessner. Youngstown, Ohio, April 7, 1911.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Lessner. In Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in Los Angeles?
Mr. Lessner. Since 1937, with the exception of 2 years.
Mr. TA\Ti:NNER. What is your occupation?
Mr. Lessner. Musician.
Mr. Taa-enner. How long have you practiced your profession in
Los Angeles?
Mr. Lessner. Since 1937.
Mr. Tam2nner. Prior to that time where did you practice your
profession ?
Mr. Lessner. I was in New York for almost 7 years, from 1930 until
1937.
Mr. TA\Ti;NNER. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has been ?
Mr. Lessner. Regular high school and a couple of years in college,
varied courses, part of which was psychology, and in which I learned
that red blood courses through all people, regardless of color, which
gave me quite an education, and I traveled with, I barnstormed all
over the country since I got out of school, and learned quite a bit
about Negroes and whites and equality of people. And this is some-
thing that I have
Mr. Scherer. Did you learn anything about the Communist Party?
Mr. Lessner. This is another question.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that the witness be directed to answer the ques-
tion. He said he has learned all about Negroes and whites and that
3980 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
red blood flows through everybody's veins. I want to know if he
learned anything about the Communist Party in his travels.
Mr. Lessner. Am I finished with the first question?
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Tavenner's question is withdrawn.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Will you answer my question ?
Mr. Lessner. Then in that case I shall decline to answer for the fol-
lowing reasons :
One, my rights and responsibilities to the Constitution are strictly
mine to maintain and protect. I have the right to meet or be with any-
body or speak or be silent. And this is the first amendment which I
use, to refuse to answer.
Secondly, as a musician, I feel it necessary to uphold culture and fur-
ther culture, to do it in my own way, to have the right to do it as an
individual as well as in connection with other people and I feel that
it is necessary for me to not yield to conformity.
Thirdly, as a union man — I have been a union member for over 30
years, almost 30 years, rather — and with our controversy in our union
at present, I feel that this committee is coming in at a very timely —
at a very time when we don't need any further publicity, and throw
in what I call a red herring into our union activities.
Mr. Scherer. We are trying to get a red herring out of it.
Mr. Lessner. I feel it is necessary to uphold and fight to protect
union rights and union gains.
And fourthly, as a parent and a war veteran, my loyalty has never
been questioned by the many neighbors and musicians I work with, the
many fellow^s in the Armed Forces I have met and worked with also.
Mr. SciiERER. Did you tell them that you had been a member of the
Communist Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lessner. Is your previous question withdrawn?
Mr. Scherer. No. There are two questions.
Mr. Lessner. If I could finish — I am just about through — I feel
that I am entirely innocent of any subversive activity, or anything
that can be pointed to me in that way, and that since I am innocent
1 will not aid this committee in trying to subvert the Constitution of
the United States, and I will not help this committee by appearing as
a witness against myself. That is the fifth amendment which I use.
Mr. Moulder. The next question.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become a member of what is known as
Branch O of the Northwest Section of the Communist Party, some-
times referred to as the Musicians Branch of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lessner. Questions such as these, Mr. Tavenner, I will not
answer, based upon the first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Tavenner. Do you refuse to answer the question ?
Mr. Lessner. I refuse, that is right. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. On the grounds stated?
Mr. Lessner. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you requested to circulate a petition of the
Independent Progressive Party of California in 1948 to secure sig-
natures of persons to put that party on the ballot?
Mr. Lessner. I refuse to answer that on the same basis.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3981
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of such a petition
and at the end of whicli there is an affidavit. The document is marked
''Herbert Lessner Exhibit No. 1" for identification only.
Do you find your name as the affiant ?
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
Mr. Lessner. I refuse to answer that on the same basis.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you sign the name Herbert Lessner, which
appears at the bottom of that document ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lessner. I refuse to answer that, the same grounds or reasons.
Mr. Tavenner, I desire to offer in evidence the document marked
"Herbert Lessner Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Moulder. The document as marked is admitted in evidence as
requested by counsel.
(This exhibit is similar to Kalman Bloch exhibit No. 1, p. 3957, and
will not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the com-
mittee's records.)
Mr. Tavenner. Reading from the exhibit, it appears that the docu-
ment bears date the 15th day of February, 1948, and that the affidavit
over the name of Herbert Lessner shows that it was Herbert Lessner
who solicited the signatures contained thereon.
Mr. Moulder. Do you wish to deny or affirm the statement made by
counsel concerning the document ?
Mr. Lessner. Is this another document ?
Mr. Moulder. The same document.
Mr. Lessner. The same one as was originally shown us ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
Mr. Lessner. I think 1 have answered that.
Mr. Moulder. Counsel made a statement concerning your name as
the signature on the document, and I am simply asking you if you wish
to deny or affirm the statement made by Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Lessner. No ; I don't care to comment on that.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party at this
time?
Mr. Lessner. The same question ; the same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Questions, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. I wish, on behalf of the committee, to reiterate and
emphasize our stand insofar as the statement made by you concerning
an intraunion dispute The committee has no interest in that dispute,
it has no knowledge Avhatsoever, either on the part of any member of
the committee or insofar as I am concerned.
You are excused as a witness.
Mr. Taatsnner. Mr. Chairman, I stated to the committee quite early
during the course of the hearing that all of those identified as members
of the Musicians Branch of the Communist Party had not been sub-
penaed by the committee. I now desire to introduce in evidence cer-
tain documents procured by the staff in the course of its investigation
3982 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
which relate to those persons who have been identified as members
of the Musicians Branch but who have not been subpenaed.
Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question in that connection ?
Is it contemplated that upon the request of any of these individuals
to be heard that they be heard at the earliest possible moment to deny
or affirm the allegations contained in the previous testimony ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. That was stated in substance in the open-
ing statement by the chairman. It is the rule of the committee, and
the staff will gladly cooperate with anyone who finds himself in that
position, where he desires to appear before the committee.
Mr. Doyle. May I further inquire, Mr. Chairman, is the identifi-
cation positive as to these persons to whom you are now referring ?
Mr. Tavenner. These individuals have been identified by anywhere
from 1 to 3 witnesses during the course of this hearing in public
session.
Mr. Doyle. As members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Tavenner. As members of Branch O, or what is usually re-
ferred to as the Musicians Branch, of the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. As far as that is concerned, the documents to which
you are now referring are just as competent for admission in evidence
as the others because none of the other documents was supported by
any testimony. So the documents which you offer, if there is no ob-
jection by the committee, will be admitted in evidence as requested
by counsel,
Mr. Doyle. I think it would be well, Mr. Chairman, to emphasize
the point which Mr. Jackson properly brought up, which is to the
effect that our rules expressly provide that any person named before
this committee, who is not personally present in the hearing room, has
the established right and privilege of communicating with the com-
mittee in any manner he wishes, and either deny or affirm the refer-
ence to the fact that he has been named.
Mr. Moulder. I understand counsel offers in evidence as a part of
the record certain documents at this point in the proceedings.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Any objection on the part of any member of the
committee ?
(There was no response.)
Mr. Moulder. Without objection, the documents are admitted and
inserted in the record at this point in the proceedings.
Mr. Tavenner. 1. I desire to introduce Thelma C. Musick exhibit
No. 1. It is a photostaic copy of a petition of the Independent Pro-
gressive Party, California, bearing date, the 29th day of December
1947, at the end of which there is an affidavit over the signature of Mrs.
Thelma C. Musick, in which it is stated that she solicited the signa-
tures appearing thereon.
2. I also offer Thelma C. Musick exhibit No. 2, M'hich is an Affi-
davit of Ivegistration by Mrs. Thelma C. INIusick, bearing date the 20th
day of February 19-18, showing affiliation with the Independent Pro-
gressive Party of California.
3. I offer as Frances Bloch exhibit No. 1, a ])hotostatic copy of an
Affidavit of Registration bearing date, the 22d day of April 1948,
showing her affiliation with the Independent Progressive Party."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3983
4. I offer as Clara J. Altman exhibit No. 1, an Affidavit of Regis-
tration bearing date, the 22d day of April 1948, showing the affiliation
of Mrs, Carl a J. Altman with the Independent Progressive Party.
5. I offer as Mischa Altman exhibit No. 1, Affidavit of Registra-
tion of Mischa Altman, bearing date the 22d day of April 1948, show-
ing affiliation of Mischa Altman with the Independent Progressive
Party.
6. I offer as Lawrence Goldman exhibit No. 1, a photostatic copy
of a petition of the Independent Progressive Party, at the end of
which appears an affidavit over the name of Lawrence Goldman, bear-
ing date, the 14th day of February 1948, of similar character as the
other petitions.
7. I offer as Lydia Marcus exhibit No. 1, a photostatic copy of an
Affidavit of Registration bearing date, the 8th day of April 1948,
showing Miss Lydia Marcus to be affiliated with the Independent
Progressive Party.
8. I offer as Earl Robinson exhibit No. 1, a photostatic copy of an
Affidavit of Registration bearing date of the 7th day of September
1948, showing Earl Robinson an affiliate of the Independent Pro-
gressive Party.
9. I offer as Leonard M. Selic exhibit No. 1, a photostatic copy
of an Affidavit of Registration bearing date the 22d day of April 1948,
of Leonard M. Selic, showing affiliation with the Independent Pro-
gressive Party.
10. I offer as Elizabeth Sugar exhibit No, 1, a photostatic copy
of a petition of the Independent Progressive Party, at the end of
which is an affidavit over the signature of Mrs. Elizabeth Sugar, bear-
ing date, the 5th day of December 1948, showing her to be the person
who solicited the signatures contained thereon,
11. I offer Alexander Walden exhibit No. 1, a photostatic copy of
Affidavit of Registration bearing date, the 10th day of September,
1950, and showing Alexander Walden to be affiliated with the Inde-
pendent Progressive Party.
12. I offer Lee Wintner ^exhibit No. 1, a photostatic copy of the
Affidavit of Registration bearing date, the 12th day of April 1948,
showing the affiliation of Lee Wintner as an affiliate of the Independ-
ent Progressive Party.
Mr. Moulder. May I say, Mr. Tavenner, the thought occurs to me,
before passing upon your request, that this question arose during the
course of the hearings before, that all persons whose names appear
upon the petitions referred to by counsel are not Communists, or at
least there is no testimony or evidence indicating directly or indirectly
that they were ever affiliated with or connected with the Communist
Party, or any other disloyal or unpatriotic act, on their part. But
without some statement or explanation appearing where they are in-
serted in the record, along the lines I have just mentioned, there might
be an injustice to have their names appear in the record unless there is
some protection along that line,
Mr. Tavenner. May I make a suggestion, that in the placing of
documents of that class in the record, that we block off the names of
all persons who signed them, except those as to whom there has been
evidence, sworn testimony before the committee, that they are mem-
bers of the Communist Party.
3984 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Doyle. I think that certainly would be an essential act, because
there certainly is no imputation or inference that any of those people
who signed those petitions at the request of the circulators knew that
the Communist Party was doing it or that they were Communists.
In fact, we have the sworn testimony in this hearing by one or more
of the circulators that he did not reveal to the people who signed, the
fact that it was being circulated by members of the Communist Party.
Mr. SciTERER. I move that Mr. Tavenner's suggestion be complied
with in making up the record.
Mr. Moulder. Without objection, it is so ordered, and with that
imderstanding, the suggestion made by counsel, the documents re-
ferred to by counsel will be admitted at this point in the record.
(Documents numbered 1 through 12 are similar to Kalman Bloch
exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, pp. 3957 and 3960, respectively, and will not be
reproduced in the printed record. They are on file in the committee's
records.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. George Kast.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you
are about to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Kast. I do.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE KAST, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HUGH E. MANES
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Kast. My name is George Kast, K-a-s-t.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify himself for the record?
Mr. Manes. Hugh R. Manes, Hollywood.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Kast?
Mr. Kast. August 28, 1913, New York City.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Kast. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you made Los Angeles your place
of residence ?
Mr. Kast. Approximately 20 years.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation?
Mr. Kast. Musician.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your for-
mal educational training has been ?
Mr. Kast. I attended public schools in New York and 1 year of
high school. At that time I left high school in order to devote myself
to music. I won a New York Philharmonic scliohirship. I studied
at the Institute of Musical Art on a scholarshij). T studied at the
David Manes School of Music as a scholarshi]) student.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in the practice of
your profession in Los Angeles?
Mr. Kast. Approximately 20 years.
Mr. Tavenneh. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
at any time during that ])eriod you have been a member of branch O
of the northwest section of the ('ommunist Party, sometimes referred
to as the musicians branch of the Communist Party?
Mr. Kast. I decline to answer on the grounds that tlie mandate of
this committee purported to authorize inquiry into the held of propa-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3985
ganda, entrenclies upon an area in which Congress may not constitu-
tionally legislate, and because also the mandate of this committee is
so vague and indefinite as to deprive me of an adequate standard of
conduct by which the demands of the question may be reasonably
ascertained or established. And further, upon the grounds that the
question pries into my private affairs which are protected from inquisi-
tion by the Bill of Rights of our Constitution, and because the question
asked involves my personal opinions and associations, which are sub-
ject solely unrelated to any valid legislative purpose, and about which
I may speak or remain silent as I choose. I am, therefore, relying
upon the entire Bill of Rights insofar as that document incorporates
and pertains to the foregoing reasons, and particularly upon the first
amendment thereof.
Mr. ScHERER. I think the record should show that the witness read
his last answer from a document, or documents that he had in his
possession.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any personal knowledge of a plan of
the Communist Party to cause musicians who had affiliated with it to
circulate petitions of the Independent Progressive Party of Califor-
nia in 1948 ?
Mr. Kast. I refuse to answei- on the same grounds as stated pre-
viously.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of such a petition of
the Independent Progressive Party bearing date, the 18th day of
February 1948, at the end of which apj^ears an affidavit over your
name. Marked for identification only as "George Kast Exhibit No. 1"
I ask you to examine it, please, and state whether or not you circulated
that petition.
( Document handed to the witness and his counsel. )
Mr. Kast. I decline to answer the question on the grounds previous-
ly stated. However, for this particular question I have further
grounds for declining. This questi(m violates the right of secret
ballot as guaranteed by American tradition and law. Further, it
violates the right to petition the Government free from intimidation,
as guaranteed by the Bill of Rights in the United States Constitution.
Mr. SciiERER. I think the record should show that that answer of
the witness was read from a prepared document.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer in evidence, the document marked
as "George Kast Exhibit No. 1."'
Mr. Moulder. The document as marked is admitted in evidence.
(This exhibit is similar to Kalman Bloch exhibit No, 1, p. 39,57, and
will not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the com-
mittee's records,)
Mr. Sciierer. I think we should say, in view of the answer given,
that there is nothing in the Constitution that prevents a district at-
torney, a court, or a congressional committee from investigating peti-
tions such as have been the subject of this inquiry which were obtained
and circulated by fraud or through fraud.
There is no constitutional provision or any other provision that pre-
vents such investigation or such an inquiry.
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Sciierer. There is no constitutional provision except the fifth
amendment which permits a person not to answer.
3986 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Chairman, on that point, as long as the witness has
relied upon the first amendment, involving the right of petition, the
first amendment is :
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or pro-
hibiting the free exercise thereof ; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the
press ; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble —
and here is the phrase that refers to the petitions —
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I don't think that that gives authority for the Communist Party sub-
versively, fraudulently, and falsely to importune and impose upon the
voters of the State of California to sign petitions to qualify a Com-
munist front in the State of California. That is not the right of peti-
tion, as I see it. ^ There is no right of petition involved. The Consti-
tution doesn't give the Communist Party the right to perpetrate a de-
liberate fraud on the California voters. That is what this Communist
Party group did, in my book.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you two photostatic copies of affidavits of
registration bearing date, 22d day of April 1948, and the 21st day of
November 1950, respectively, showing George Kast as of the dates
mentioned in each affidavit to be affiliated with the Independent Pro-
gressive Party of California. They are marked "George Kast Ex-
hibits No. 2 and No. 3," respectively, for identification.
Will you examine them, please, and state whether or not you signed
either or both of those documents ?
(Documents handed to the witness and his counsel.)
Mr. Kast. What was the question, sir ?
Mr. Ta MANNER. Did you sign either of the affidavits ?
Mr. Kast. I think that violates the right that I have for a secret
ballot, and I will refuse to answer that statement, based upon my
previous grounds.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Did you have personal knowledge of the Communist
Party plan to cause its members, composed of the musicians group in
the Communist Party, to change their registration to that of the In-
dependent Progressive Party in 1948 ?
Mr. Kast. I refuse to answer that question on the previous grounds.
Mr. Tai-enner. I desire to offer in evidence the two documents
marked "George Kast Exhibits No. 2 and No. 3," respectively.
Mr. Moulder. The documents referred to as requested by counsel
are admitted in evidence.
(These 2 exhibits, bearing dates of April 22, 1948, and November
21, 1950, respectively, as similar to Kalman Bloch exhibit No. 2, p.
3960, and will not be reproduced in the printed record. They are on
file in the committee's records.)
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Kast. I refuse to answer that question for all of the previous
reasons stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mv. Chairman.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Moulder. Questions, Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. In connection with the circulation of those 11,000 peti-
tions, largely circulated by members of the Communist Party in Call-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3987
fornia, I wish to make it clear as a resident of Los Angeles County
and the State of California that I am very sure that a very, very
insignificant proportion of those people who signed those petitions,
under the fraudulent, subversive, and concealment methods used by
the Communist Party in circulating them, had knowledge that the
Communist Party in California was imposing upon them. I feel I
ought to make that statement, Mr. Chairman, because I know that in
those years many perfectly patriotic, fuie, sound American citizens
registered in the Independent Progressive Party.
Mr. ScHEKER. Many, but not all.
Mr. Doyle. I said many. I didn't say all, because I know that some
very active Communists registered in the IPP in those days. And
they never changed their subversive, deceitful, cheating attitude to-
ward the Constitution of the United States except to subvert it.
Mr. Ta\^nner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
The Chair wishes to announce that it has been called to my attention
that there is an organized effort for concentrated attendance of many
people at the hearing here tomorrow morning.
I also wish to announce, of course, the attitude of the committee:
That the public is invited to attend these hearings which are open hear-
ings. But the committee will not tolerate any interference, demon-
strations, or disturbance during the proceedings which will be held by
the committee tomorrow.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will recess until tomorrow morning
at 9 : 30 a. m.
(Whereupon, at 5 : 25 p. m. April 20, 1956, the hearing was recessed
until 9 : 30 a. m., Saturday, April 21, 1956. Present: llepresentatives
Moulder, Doyle, and Scherer.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— PART 10
SATURDAY, APRIL 21, 1956
United States House or Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Aotivities,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
public hearing
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 9 :35 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 518, Federal Building, Los
Angeles, Calif., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder (chairman of the subcom-
mittee) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Morgan M. Moulder,
of Missouri (presiding), Clyde Doyle, of California, Donald L. Jack-
.son, of California (appearance as noted), and Gordon H. Scherer, of
Ohio.
Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; William
A. Wheeler and Courtney E. Owens, investigators.
(Representatives Moulder, Doyle, and Scherer were present at the
time of convening.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order, please.
The committee has unanimously agreed on the following announce-
ment or order in the nature of an announcement : Those in the hear-
ing room this morning are here as guests of the committee.
During the past week on several occasions it has been necessary to
remove from the hearing room persons who have interrupted the
work of the committee by expressing their approval or disapproval of
testimony by applause or other demonstrations. This subcommittee
of the Congress is here in Los Angeles on business of the Congress
of the United States and it is our determination and the determina-
tion of this committee that the work of the committee will not be in-
terfered with by such demonstrations. The Chair has warned on
previous occasions that any expression of disapproval or approval by
any person present would result in the ejection of that person or per-
sons responsible for such interruption from the hearing room. In light
of the fact that many of those present in the room this morning are here
at the request of others or have been urged to attend at the request of
others in an organized effort to lend support to certain witnesses, the
warning issued on previous days is enlarged this morning and the
Chair will clear the hearing room, or order the United States marshal
to clear the hearing room, for the balance of the day's work if any
3989
3990 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
demonstration is made by any person which causes an interruption
in the proceedings or orderly procedure by the committee.
Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Will Mr. John W. Porter come forward, please, sir ?
Mr. Moulder. Please be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Porter. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN W. POETEE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ANTHONY V. EANDLES
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. PoRi'ER. John Walter Porter.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record ?
Mr. Handles. I am Anthony V. Handles, member of the State Bar
Association of California.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Los Angeles bar ?
Mr. Handles. I am a member of the State Bar Association of Cali-
fornia, the official one, and also of the Los Angeles Bar Association.
Mr. Tavenner. My question was directed at where you maintain
your office, more than anything else.
Mr. Handles. Yes. I maintain my office in the city of Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Porter, you have appeared before the Commit-
tee on Un-American Activities before this. I believe it was in 1952.
Mr. Porter. September 30, 1952.
Mr. Tavenner. At that time, you were questioned about the period
when you were employed as an attorne}^ by the National Labor Hela-
tions Board, and also while you were employed by the War Labor
Board in Denver.
The committee at that time had not made an investigation regarding
the organization of Communist Party cells within those two agencies
where you were employed and they did not at that time have the
benefit of the information which is now available to the committee
through sworn testimony.
It is for that reason that we find it necessary to ask you to come
back, not to repeat the subject of your former testimony, but to ques-
tion you further regarding the matters which have developed during
the course of a recent investigation.
Mr. Moulder. In Washington, D. C.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. This investigation began during the year
1955 and resulted finally in the appearance of Prof. Herbert Fuchs as
a witness before this committee.
Professor Fuchs, I may remind the committee, was solicitor at one
time of the National Labor Helations Board in Washington and later
was transferred to the War Labor Board in Denver, where he was
elevated to a high position. The exact position, I do not recall at this
time.
As a result of his testimony, hearings were held December 13, 14,
and 15, 1955, in Chicago, and during February and March for a period
of 3 weeks in Washington.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AEEA 3991
Professor Fiiclis testified that he was a member of the Communist
Party from 1934 to 1946. He testified that he was first a member of
the Conimimist Party in New York before coming to Washington,
but his first connection with the Communist Party while employed by
the Government was in Washington while a member of the staff of
a Senate committee. From there he went in 1937 to the National
Labor Relations Board, According to his testimony he organized a
group of the Communist Party within the staff of the Senate com-
mittee and he also organized a group of the Communist Party within
the National Labor Relations Board.
The testimony that has been introduced during the course of these
hearings which I have referred to has established the existence of at
least two different organized groups of the Communist Party among
the employees of the National Labor Relations Board in Washington.
During the course of his testimony, Professor Fuchs identified you
as a member of one of tlie groups of the Communist Party within the
National Labor Relations Board in Washington and also the National
War Labor Board in Denver.
Now, will you tell the committee, please, Mr. Porter, when you first
became emploj'ed by the National Labor Relations Board ?
Mr. Porter. Counsel, my recollection of the dates of my employment
by various agencies of the Federal Government, perhaps naturally
enough, is no clearer today than it was at the time of my last appear-
ance before this committee on September 30, 1952. And I note from
looking at the transcript of the testimony at tliat time that I didn't
recall such precise elates then either. I also note that at that time you
appeared to have before you a rather complete file containing precisely
this kind of information with reference to me. And it would there-
fore seem to me that the information is much more readily available
to you than to me.
Mr. SciiERER. I request that you direct the witness to answer the
question to the best of his ability.
Mr. ISIoTjLDER. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Porter. May I have the question read, ISIr. Chairman ?
(The pending question was read by the reporter. )
Mr. Porter. As I say, ISIr. Chairman, I do not now recall precise
dates any more than I did 31/2 years ago. My best recollection is that
it was sometime during either 1937 or 1938.
Mr. Sciierer. That is close enough.
Mr. Tavexner. Was Professor Fuchs serving as an attorney for
the National Labor Relations Board at that time ?
Mr. Porter. I do not recall as to that time, which, as my previous
answer indicates, is somewhat vague in my memory. I do remember
that a Herbert Fuchs was employed, as well as a good many others
of us, by the National Labor Relations Board at the time that I was
employed by the Board in Washington.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Nathan Witt also an employee of the NLRB
during that period of time?
Mr. Porter. He was.
]Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall in what capacity ?
Mr. Porter. As I remember, Mr. Witt, at some period during my
connection with the NLRB, was secretary to the Board.
77436— 56— pt. 10-
3992 COMMUNIST ACTWITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to liis being secretary to the Board, do you
recall wlietlier he was the General Counsel for the Board ?
Mr. Porter. No, I do not.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know him prior to your employment with
the NLPvB ?
Mr. Porter. Mr. Chairman, at the time of my previous appearance
before this body I made it clear that, in my opinion, this committee,
by virtue of the resolution under which it operates and the manner in
which it has conducted itself, is without authority to investigate or
inquire into the private associations and opinions and beliefs and ac-
tivities of persons living within these United States, including myself.
I stated that at that time with a good deal of emphasis because I be-
lieved it very firmly. My opinions in that respect since my previous
appearance 31/^ years ago have been no little fortified by decisions
of the Supreme Court of the United States, including the Quinn case
and the Ullmann case and the Slochower decision a week or two ago. I
regret that the Court has not yet had occasion to deal directly with
the question of the powers of this committee. I would have no desire
to make a speech. Now, I simply want to say, Mr. Chairman and
counsel, that I conceive that this committee is totally without right
or authority under the Constitution to compel me to disclose anything
with respect to my conscience, my opinions, or my associations which
I do not choose to divulge.
I think that to recall me, as you have done for this purpose, is a
further abuse of the powers which you have arrogated to yourself,
but which cannot bear any reasonable or rational relationship to any
legislative purpose. And without such a proper purpose, of course,
as the Supreme Court indicated in the Quinn case, you have no
authority.
Therefore, resting on my rights under the Constitution of the United
States, and particularly the 1st amendment to the Constitution of
the United States, upon the privilege afforded all of us by the 5th
amendment of the United States Constitution not to be compelled
to become witnesses against ourselves, and by the provisions of the
9th and 10th amendments to the Constitution reserving ultimate sov-
ereignty in this country to the people of the United States, I decline
to answer that question. And I shall similarly decline with respect
to similar questions.
Mr. Moulder. May I suggest, if you do so elect to decline to an-
swer any other questions propounded to you by counsel, would you
prefer to state that you reassert the same reasons which you have just
stated?
Mr. Porter. I think that is a useful suggestion ; yes, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, how you ob-
tained your employment with the National Labor Relations Board ?
Mr. Porter. I really don't remember. Counsel. I am sure that I
made an application for employment. But the details associated with
it are gone from my memory.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr, Witt play any part in your selection as a
member of the staff of the NLRB ?
Mr. Porter. I have no way of knowing about that.
Mr. SciiERER. Did you know Mr. Witt ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3993
Mr. Porter. I believe that is the question asked me before by coun-
sel, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. I am asking at this time.
Mr. Porter. And I make the same answer that I made before to
that question.
Mr. JSIouLDER. That is, you decline to answer for the same reasons ?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer upon the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Mr. Witt known to you to be a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Porter. To that question I decline an answer upon the same
grounds and for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware of the existence of more than one
organized group of the Communist Party among the employees of
theNLRB?
Mr. Porter. Without accepting the statement, the formulation
seeking to establish a fact not in evidence, I decline to answer that
question, upon the same grounds and for the same reasons.
Mr. Scherer. When you made an application for employment with
the National Labor Relations Board, did you not state in your appli-
cation that you were not a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Porter. I don't now recall the terms of the application. If
it were shown to me, as I think it was on my previous appearance, the
application would answer that question.
Mr. SciiERER. Did you answer a question "no," which asked whether
or not you belonged to any organization that sought the overthrow
of the Government of the United States by force and violence?
Mr. Porter. As the transcript of the hearings of September 30,
1952, at pages 3950 and following, will show, that is true.
Mr. Scherer. At the time you signed that application and gave
that answer to that question, were you a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer that question upon all of the
grounds heretofore given.
Mr. Scherer. When you signed that application
Mr. Porter. May I, sir, have the courtesy of an opportunity to
complete my answer before you begin another question; and may I
have the answer read back as far as I got ?
( Wliereupon, the record was read by the reporter as follows :)
I decline to answer that question upon all of the grounds heretofore given.
Mr. Porter. I am sorry. I thought I hadn't completed it.
Mr. Scherer. "^Mien you made that application, did you tell the
truth?
Mr. Porter. I am looking now in the transcript of the hearings — ;—
Mr. Scherer. Irrespective of what you testified to previously, did
you tell the truth when you made application for employment with
the Government of the United States ?
Mr. Porter. I would like to make the same answer as I made be-
fore with respect to that same question.
Mr. Scherer. That would be helpful, if you made the same answer,
I am sure.
Mr. Moulder. Is that all, Mr. Scherer ?
3994 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. No. He is looking to see how he answered that ques-
tion the last time, if it was asked. I was not a member of the com-
mittee then.
Mr. Porter. The answer to this question which was asked me be-
fore and is now repeated, is now as it was then, that my statements on
my application were true so far as I knew or understood at that time
and now know or understand.
Mr.' Scherer. Did you understand at that time that the Communist
Party, or Communist conspiracy, was dedicated to the overthrow of
this Government by force and violence, if necessary ?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer that question upon all of the
grounds heretofore stated.
Mr. Tavenner, Will you tell the committee briefly the nature of
your duties while employed by the NLRB ?
Mr. Porter. I was emj^loyed as an attorney.
Mr. Tavenner. Did your work require you to become closely associ-
ated with Mr. Herbert Fuchs ?
Mr. Porter. In the work of the Board, not as I recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you associated with him in any other work ?
Mr. Porter. As to that, I decline to answer upon all of the grounds
and for all of the reasons I have stated.
Mr. Scherer. The fact is you were associated with him in the work
of this Communist cell within the National Labor Relations Board,
composed exclusively of United States Government employees. Is
that not correct. Witness ?
Mr. Porter. I make the same answer. Congressman.
Mr. Scherer. In other words, you feel, to answer my question might
tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Porter. I feel that to answer your question would be to sur-
render rights which the Constitution of the United States accords to
me and which this committee, if it were not subverting the Constitu-
tion, would fight for. And I call to your attention. Congressman,
since you have raised the point, that the Supreme Court of the United
States on April 9, 1956, in the Slochower case
Mr. Scherer. I am very familiar with the Slochower case.
Mr. Porter. Said just this, 2 or 3 sentences, which I want to em-
phasize to you, sir :
At the outset, we must condemn the practice of imputing the sinister meaning
to the exercise of a person's constitutional right under the fifth amendment. The
privilege against self-incrimination —
Mr, Scherer. We have allowed you to invoke the fifth amendment.
You have invoked
Mr. Porter. Would you allow me to finish what I am saying? I
will not take much of your time.
The privilege against self-incrimination vFould be reduced to a hollow mockery
if its exercise could be taken as equivalent eitlier to a confession of guilt or a
conclusive presumption of perjury. As we pointed out in Ullmanu a witness may
have a reasonable fear of prosecution and y(>t be innocent of any wrongdoing.
The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otlierwise might be ensnared
by ambiguous circumstances —
and there is a citation there. Dean Griswold's book, called The Fifth
Amendment Today, which I commend to the members of the com-
mittee.
Mr. Scherer. I am not drawing any inference as to your member-
ship in the Communist Party by your refusal to answer that question
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3995
and invoking the fifth amendment. I am relying upon the sworn testi-
mony before this committee stating you were a member of the Com-
munist Party. So I am not inferring anything from your invocation
of the fifth amendment at this time.
The decision is not applicable.
Mr. Taytsnner. Were you acquainted with Mortimer Riemer,
R-i-e-m-e-r, an attorney for the NLRB ?
Mr. Porter. I really don't remember as to that, Counsel, so far as
the NLRB is concerned.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Allan Rosenberg, who
I believe became assistant to Mr. Witt, and who, for a while
Mr. Porter. No doubt I was, if he had that capacity at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any association with him in the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Porter. I make the same answer as to similar questions previ-
ously put to me on the same grounds, I refuse to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Ruth Weyand,
W-e-y-a-n-d, an attorney for the NLRB ?
Mr. Porter. I believe so. I knew probably all, or certainly most of
the people who worked for the NLRB at the same time that I did in
the same office.
Mr. Scherer. Isn't Ruth Weyand the woman attorney who has
been identified before this committee under oath as a member of the
Communist Party, and who argued most of the important cases for
the Government before the Supreme Court of the United States ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, that is true.
Mr. Porter. A very able lawyer.
Mr. Scherer. A very able Communist, too. I can understand now
some of the rulings of the NLRB with the infiltration that took place
in the National Labor Relations Board over a period of years.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she known to you to be a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer the question upon the grounds here-
tofore stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with David Rein, R-e-i-n?
Mr. Porter. Was he employed at the same time that I was?
Mr. Tavenner. He was a lawyer for the NUIB.
Mr. Porter. At tlie same period ?
Mr. Tavenner. I am asking you that question.
Mr. Porter. Well, unless you will assist me. Counsel, then I will
simply decline to answer that question upon the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I will assist you to this extent, that I do not recall
what Mr. Rein testified to regarding the time of his employment.
Mr. Scherer. He was employed at the same period Ruth Weyand
was employed by the National Labor Relations Board, and he has been
identified liy 2 or 3 witnesses as a member of a cell of the Communist
Party composed exclusively- of employees of the National Labor Rela-
tions Board.
Mr. Tavenner. I was not present when he testified but I did inter-
rogate Professor Fuchs who identified him as a member of the same
group of the Communist Party of which you were a member. Does
that serve to refresh your recollection ?
3996 COIMMUNIST ACTH^ITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Porter. I make the same answer I previously made, Comisel.
Let me say that so far as my acquaintance through my employment
with fellow employees, whether lawyers or nonlawyers, I am willing
to answer, I choose to answer your questions ; as to associations and ac-
quaintances and the like, outside of my employment in my private
capacity as a citizen, exercising the rights of citizenship, I say that
this committee has no right to inquire. I will not assist in violating
those rights for anyone, including myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Martin Kurasch,
K-u-r-a-s-c-h?
Mr. Porter. I recall him as a fellow attorney at the National Labor
Relations Board.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know him as a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer upon the grounds already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Joseph Robison,
R-o-b-i-s-o-n?
Mr. Porter. I remember him, as well as many others, as fellow em-
ployees at the NLRB.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you remember him as a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Porter. I make the same answer and decline to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Woodrow Sandler,
S-a-n-d-1-e-r?
Mr. Porter. You mean as an employee of the NLRB ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Porter. I actually don't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall having known him ?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer that question upon the grounds al-
ready stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Jacob H. Krug, K-r-u-g?
Mr. Porter. As a lawyer at the Board ?
Mr. Tavenner. In any capacity.
Mr. Porter. To that question I decline to answer on the grounds
already stated.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Was he a member of the Communist Party, to your
knowledge ?
Mr. Porter. Same answer.
Is that sufficient, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes. I think by making reference to your previous
answer is sufficient to decline to answer and claim the privilege under
the Constitution.
Mr. Porter. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Harry Cooper?
Mr. Porter. At the Board ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Porter. I don't recall him.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know him as a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Porfer. I make the same answer as to the same question.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know him in any other capacity?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Frank Donner, D-o-n-
n-e-r?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3997
Mr. Porter. At the Board ?
Mr. Ta^tenner. Yes.
Mr. Porter. I don't remember liim.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not remember ever having met Frank Don-
ner?
Mr. Porter. At the Board?
Mr. TA^^NNER. At any time?
Mr. Porter. You are asking a different question now, is that right?
Mr. Taatenner. No, I just asked you the question whether you had
ever met Frank Donner.
Mr. Porter. Your previous question was limited, as a result of my
inquiry, as I understood it. Counsel, to acquaintance as an employee
of the'NLRB. And I made the answer to that question. You are now
asking me if I knew him in any other connection. I have already
stated my position with respect to such questions. I adhere to it. I
decline to ansAver upon the grounds already given.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the witness be di-
rected to answer the question, which was this: Have you ever met
Frank Donner ? He has not answered the question.
Mr. Moulder. As requested by counsel, the witness is directed to
answer the question.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Porter. I think that I did answer that question, Mr. Chairman.
However, to save time and avoid the necessity of rereading the record,
I now decline to answer that question upon all the grounds I have pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever met Edward Scheunemann,
S-c-h-e-u-n-e-m-a-n-n ?
Mr. Porter. Asked in that form, I decline to answer the question
upon the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you associated with him in work at the
NLRB?
Mr. Porter. I believe so.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you associated with him in work in Denver
when you were employed by the National War Labor Board?
Mr.' Porter. I think he was employed there at the same time, yes.
Mr. Taatenner. Is there any uncertainty in your mind about that?
Mr. Porter. Yes. It is a little vague to me.
Mr. Taa^nner. Did you knoAv him as a member of the Communist
Party while you were working for the National War Labor Board in
Denver ?
Mr. Porter. I make tlie same answer as to the previous question.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Bertram Diamond,
D-i-a-m-o-n-d?
Mr. Porter. Do you care to limit the question?
Mr. Tavenner. No.
Mr. Porter. I don't care to answer it for the same reasons already
slated.
Mr. Scherer. It wasn't a question of whether he cares to. Does he
decline to answer for the same reasons as stated ?
I ask you to direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer the question on the grounds stated.
Mr. Tavenner. According to the testimony of Professor Fuchs,
Victor Perlo was the Communist Party member on a higher level to
3998 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
whom lie reported in connection with the activities of the Communist
Party within the NLRB. He testified that on at least one occasion
A'^ictor Perlo appeared before his group of tlie Communist Party or-
ganized within the National Labor Relations Board.
Did you ever attend a meeting of any group of individuals while
you were employed by the National Labor Relations Board which was
addressed by Victor Perlo?
Mr. Porter. I refuse to answer that question upon the grounds I
have previously given.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Victor Perlo?
Mr. Porter. I make the same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Another person to whom the cell in the NLRB was
responsible was xVrthur Stein, according to the testimony of Professor
Fuchs. Were you acquainted with Arthur Stein?
Mr. Porter. I make the same answer as to the ])i'eceding question.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of a Communist Party group
organized within and consisting of employees of the National Labor
Relations Board?
Mr. Porter. I make the same answer as to the ])receding question.
Mr. Tavenner. According to your former testimony, you were em-
ployed by the National War Labor Board in Denver between March
1944 and April 194'5.
Will you tell us, please, the circumstances under which you ob-
tained that employment?
Mr. Porter. The employment by the Regional War Labor Board at
Denver ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Porter. All I recall is that I transferred from tlie Office of
Price Administration in San Francisco, as I have previously testified
here, to the Regional War Labor Board staff in Denver.
Mr. Tavenner. Who assisted in having your assignment made ef-
fective?
Mr. Porter. I don't know what your question means. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you solicited by the National War Labor
Board to take employment there, or did somebody intercede in your
behalf for your employment ?
Mr. Porter. You have asked a couple of questions. To save time
here, I would say that with respect to similar questions before, at this
appearance, and also at my debut before the committee I find my mem-
ory quite scanty on these details which seem so fascinating to you.
Mr. Scherer. Whether they are fascinating or not, either answer to
the best of your ability or decline to answer. .
Mr. Porter. I am endeavoring to answer the question. Congressman.
And I think we will get to the answer a lot quicker if I am not inter-
rupted.
Mr. Sctierer. If you don't make a speech every time, we will get to
the answer. You are a lawyer and you know how to answer these
questions. And when you decline to answer, that is all.
Mr. Porter. If you want me to decline
Mr. Scherer. What is fascinating to Mr. Tavenner, or what may not
be fascinating to him, certainly is not a proper answer.
You are a member of the bar.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3999
Mr. Porter. What strikes me about that, Congressman, is that these
questions aren't proper questions from Mr. Tavenner, who is also a
member of the bar.
Mr. ScHERER. That is your opinion.
Mr. Porter. That is my opinion.
Mr. ScHERER. I can expect that from a man in your position, who
has been identified as a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Porter. You can expect it from anyone who really believes in
the o;uaranties of the first amendment to the Constitution, Cono-ress-
man, and who really believes and practices what the Constitution says
when it secures freedom of conscience and of association to everyone.
Mr. ScHERER. We can soon end this.
Professor Herbert Fuchs identified 3'ou as a member of the Com-
munist Party while you were employed both by the National Labor
Relations Board in Wasliington and while you were employed by the
War Labor Board in Denver. When Professor Fuchs testified before
this committee under oath concerning you in that respect, was he tell-
ing the truth ?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer that question upon the grounds
heretofore stated, just like similar questions.
Mr. ScHERER. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee's investigation shows that the fol-
lowing persons who had worked together in the NLRB in Washington
were employed in the National War Labor Board in Denver : John W.
Porter, Martin Ivurascli, Edward Scheunemann, and Herbert Fuchs.
Can you give the committee any explanation of how this group who
had been associated together in Washington happened to become em-
ployed at the same time and at the same place by the National War
Labor Board in Denver ?
Mr. Porter. I suppose that all four were hired at about the same
time.
Mr. Tavenner. That is quite obvious from what I stated. My ques-
tion was whether or not you know of any circumstances which would
indicate hoAv they happened to be employed at the same time and at
the same place.
Mr. Porter. Even the circumstances of my own employment by the
Board in Denver, as I have already indicated, are vague in my memory,
and I have no knowledge about the employment of others.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you confer with any of those people I have just
named prior to your employment with the War Labor Board?
Mr. Porter. With reference to my employment ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Porter. I doubt it. I was in San Francisco. I don't think any
of them were.
Mr. Taa^nner. Did you correspond with them or did you confer
with them ?
Mr. Porter. I really do not recall.
Mr. Ta\t3nner. Did you confer with Philip Reno by any means of
communication relative to your employment ?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer that question on the grounds al-
ready stated.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Did you know Philip Reno in Washington while
you were employed by the National Labor Relations Board ?
4000 COMMXJNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr, Porter. I make the same answer as to the previous question.
Mr, Tavenner. Did he play any part in procuring your employment
in Denver ?
Mr, Porter, You would have to ask him.
Mr. Tavenner, I am asking you.
Mr. Porter. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not know ?
Mr. Porter. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you confer with him about it ?
Mr. Porter. I make the same answer.
Mr. ScHERER. Wait a minute. The same answer was he doesn't
know. Is that the same answer ?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer upon the grounds already stated
with respect to the same question.
Mr. Tavenner. By that do I understand you do not know whether
he was successful in procuring your employment with the War Labor
Board?
Mr. Porter. Would you state that again ?
Mr. Tavenner. Would you read him the question ?
(The pending question was read by the reporter.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Porter. The question assumes he had something to do with it.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he ?
Mr. Porter. I have already answered that question. I do not know.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Philip Keno employed by the National War
Labor Board, in Denver ?
Mr. Porter. I really can't recall. He may have been.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with him while you were
living in Denver ?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer that question upon the grounds as
I have given with respect to similar questions as to my associations.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Coramunist Party, to your
knowledge ?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer it on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Gerald J. Matchett,
M-a-t-c-h-e-t-t?
Mr. Porter. Are you limiting the question ?
Mr. Tavenner. No.
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he employed by the National War Labor
Board, in Denver, at the time you were employed there ?
Mr. Porter. I believe so.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Lawrence Raymond
LaVallee, L-a-Va-1-l-e-e?
Mr. Porter. Is that question limited ?
Mr. Tavenner. No.
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer that question upon the gromids
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he employed by the National War Labor
Board ?
Mr. Porter. Would you reword the question, Counsel? Wlio are
you asking me about now ?
Mr. Tavenner. Was Mr. LaVallee employed by the National War
Labor Board, in Denver, while you were employed there ?
COIVOIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4001
Mr. Porter. Wliat was the name again ?
Mr. Tavenner. Lawrence Kaymond LaVallee.
Mr. Porter. Well, as I stated with reference to the NLKB in Wash-
ington, I suppose that I knew — and this would be even more true in
the case of the Board, Regional War Labor Board, in Denver, which
was a relatively small staff — I suppose that I knew everybody at least
by name, but I don't now recall all of the names.
My answer to the question is : I do not remember.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Was Dwight Spencer employed by the National
War Labor Board, in Denver, while you were employed there ?
Mr. Porter. He was.
Mr. ScHERER. Have all of these persons you are mentioning either
been identified under oath as members of the Communist Party or have
they admitted membership in the Commmiist Part^^ ?
^T. Tavenner. All of these persons have been identified by Pro-
fessor Fuchs as members of the Commimist Party group in Denver.
Did you know Dwight Spencer as a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer the question upon the grounds
already stated.
Mr. Ta^tenner. Was Arlyne Plumb, P-1-u-m-b, an employee of the
National War Labor Board while you were so employed ?
Mr. Porter. I believe she was one of the employees of the Board ;
yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Porter. I refuse to answer that question upon the grounds
given.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Do you recall what position Prof. Herbert Fuchs
had with the National War Labor Board, in Denver ?
Mr. Porter. I recall two positions that he had. One was director
of the Disputes Division, as I remember the title, and the other was
vice chairman, I believe, public member of the regional board.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell the committee how any of the indi-
viduals about whom I have asked you received their employment with
the National War Labor Board, in Denver ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Porter. Since that question is so broad, Mr. Chairman, I de-
cline to answer it upon the grounds previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute. Are you refusing to answer the ques-
tion on the basis that it is so broad, or that the answer might tend to
incriminate you ? Which one ?
Mr. Porter. On the grounds that I have already stated with re-
spect to other questions which I have declined to answer.
Mr. Scherer. That is on the basis of the 1st, 5th, 4th and lOtb
amendments, then ?
Mr. Porter. Ninth and tenth.
Mr. Scherer. All right ; 9th and 10th. One of the grounds being,
then, that your answer might tend to incriminate you, which we
recognize as a proper answer.
Mr. Porter. And also that the question could not serve any proper
legislative purpose, a limitation which bears directly upon the opera-
tions of this committee.
4002 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. I just want to get the record straight that you were
refusing to answer the question on the basis of the amendments and
not because the question was too broad.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, in view of the attorney's observation
that counsel's question could not serve any legislative purpose, may I
make this observation : Of course, it could serve a legislative purpose
if we discovered that members of the Communist Party conspiracy
were seeing to it that other Communists got into the employ of the
United States Government, which they are trying to overthrow. That
is the reason it could serve a legislative purpose, Mr. Porter.
Mr. ScHERER. Not only could, bvit it has, Mr. Doyle. The infiltra-
tion took place into 51 agencies of the Federal Government. Our most
vital secrets were stolen and sent to Russia. And as a result, we have
passed 43 pieces of legislation, or recommended administrative
changes which have been adopted as a result of the recommendations
of this committee over the past few years.
Mr. Moulder. Let's proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Doyle. May I make one further comment, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Not only that, but the record shows in uncontradicted
manner, all over the country, that the philosophy and ideology of the
practice of the Communist Party is inconsistent and diametrically
opposed to the interests and policies and ideologies of patriotic Ameri-
can organized labor. Therefore, it is very dangerous to allow Commu-
nists to get into control of the staff dealing with labor in the United
States, because they destroy organized labor as patriotic American
labor men know it, and subvert the American labor movement to the
purpose of the Communist conspiracy wherever they can.
Mr. Porter. I never observed this committee, if I may say so, Mr.
Chairman, exhibiting any great concern for the interests of organized
labor.
Mr. Doyle. You should read and keep your eyes and ears open,
tlior.
Mr, Moulder. May I caution the people who are present in the
hearing room, of my previous announcement in the opening of the
session this morning; that is, to respectfully ask you to make no
demonstrations or expressions which would disturb the orderly pro-
cedure in the hearing of the witnesses before this committee.
However, I do feel, Mr. Counsel, that I should say to Mr. Porter —
and I am sure it applies to other members of the committee — that even
though I do not represent what is generally referred to as an organ-
ized labor congressional district, but one which is predominantly agri-
culture, I have consistently and on all occasions voted for and sup-
ported all of the legislation proposed and submitted by organized
labor, and I sincerel}^ believe in the rights and privileges and objec-
tives of organized labor.
Mr. Porter. I am happy to hear that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Porter, did you reconnnend any of the persons
about whom I have inquired for employment in the National War
Labor Board in Denver ?
Mr. Porter. Ilecommend to whom ?
Mr. Tavenner. To anyone.
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer that question on the grounds al-
ready stated.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4003
Mr. Tavenner. Did Philip Reno, to your knowledge, recommend
the appointment of any of these persons about whom I have inquired i
Mr. Porter. I decline to answer that question upon the same
frrounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chainnan.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. I have a couple.
Mr. Porter, being a member of the California bar the same as I am,
I presume you are a member of the American Bar Association also ^
Mr. Porter. No ; I am not.
Mr. Doyle. We all know what the American Bar Association is.
Therefore, I want to read just one paragraph from a brief filed in the
Supreme Court of tlie United States by the American Bar Association.
Mr. Porter. Would you give the name of the case in which that was
filed. Congressman?
Mr. Doyi.e. Yes. Communist Party of the United States of Amer-
ica V. Subversive Activities Control Board. No doubt you are familiar
with it.
Mr. Porter. Yes, not decided by the Supreme Court of the United
States.
Mr. Doyle. That is right. I want to read a paragraph of this be-
cause I think it is pertinent. You are a lawyer, and so am I. You
question the duty of Congress, you question the jurisdiction of Con-
g]-ess, you question the validity of the resolution under which we
operate.
I read at page 4 for your attention.
Mr. Porter. Yes, sir.
Mr. D0Y1.E. You have the decision there. Read with me.
Congress has a duty and the power to enact laws to safeguard the security
and welfare of the Nation.
There is no purpose or power in the Government more fundamental than the
protection of the Nation from invasion, domination or subversion.
The duty and the power were specifically vested by the people in our Federal
Government by constitutional mandate. The words of the preamble "insure
domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general
welfare, * * *" were supported by the specific grants of powers in article I,
Section 8. To amplify those express powers, the Constitution further provided
Congress with the general power "to make all laws which shall be necessary
and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other
powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or
in any department or oflScer thereof."
The power of Congress to protect our people embraces every phase of na-
tional security. The duty of self-preservation must be exercised within the
framework of the Constitution. The duty and the power of the Congress have
well been restated by this Court in Dennis v. United States (341 U. S. 494),
by Chief Justice Vinson at page 501 ; by Justice Frankfurter at page 519.
There can be no individual rights or freedoms without national !<ecurity.
In the light of existing conditions the Congress would have been derelict In
its duty had it not enacted legislation within its power deemed hy it adequate
to protect the national welfare. The country was entitled to protection — not
alibis or epitaphs.
Where no constitutional or statutory provision is violated, the courts are no
more immune from the duty to safeguard the Nation than is the Congress or
the President.
I recognize that that is not dealing with the subject specifically of
congressional investigations.
Now, may I invite your attention to the fact that, since you quoted
or referred to the case of Quinn v. United States
4004 COMMUNIST ACTrV'lTIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Porter. Before you do that, Mr. Doyle, could I call your at-
tention to something from another amicus brief in the same case be-
fore the Supreme Court of the United States ?
Mr. Doyle. Let me finish my statement. I am referring to the
American Bar Association, which is the national organization of
American lawyers.
Mr, Porter. It is a national organization, Mr. Doyle, I am sure
you know that there are a number of others, including the National
Bar Association.
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Porter. Which, unfortunately, due to the undemocratic poli-
cies of the American Bar Association, had to be formed by Negro
lawyers in the United States who were not admitted to membership
in the American Bar Association.
And there is also the National Lawyers Guild. There are also
national organizations of women attorneys. I think it is quite mis-
leading
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute.
Mr. Scherer. Will you yield for one question, Mr, Doyle?
Do you belong to the National Lawyers Guild ?
Mr. Porter. May I be permitted to finish what I was saying?
Mr. Doyle. I didn't go into those subjects and I want to finish my
statement. I went into one subject — what the duty of Congress was
under the Constitution.
Mr. Porter. I simply want to point out that the American Bar
Association is not the national lawyers' organization. It is one of
them.
Mr. Doyle, In my book it is the organization.
Mr. Moulder. May I suggest, Mr. Doyle, Mr. Scherer, and the wit-
ness and everyone, let us avoid, if we can, any arguments concerning
bar associations and decisions of the courts. The witness has been
on the stand for an hour and 15 minutes. I hope we can proceed as
quickly as possible.
Mr. Doyle. Since this witness has referred to a certain decision, I
want to read one paragraph from it. The case referred to is Quinn
V. U. S., decided May 23, 1955.
The court, at page 5 thereof, said this :
There can be no doubt as to the power of Congress by itself or through its
committees to investigate matters and conditions relating to contemplated
legislation. This power, deeply rooted in American and English institutions, is
indeed coextensive with the power to legislate. Without the power to investi-
gate — including, of course, the authority to compel testimony, either through
its own processes or through judicial trial —Congress would be seriously handi-
capped in its efforts to exercise its constitutional function wisely and effectively.
I read the second paragraph on page 5 :
But the power to investigate, broad as it may be, is also subject to recognized
limitations. It cannot be used to inquire into private affairs unrelated to a valid
legislative purpose. Nor does it extend to an area in which Congress is for-
bidden to legislate.
Mr, Porter. There is more to that paragraph, Mr. Doyle, which
is really a part of tlie same thought. Would you read it ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes; I will read it.
Mr. PoR'i'KR. Thank you.
COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4005
Mr. Doyle. I read the part of the second paragraph which has
been quoted by a certain alleged committee that is attacking this
committee. That is the reason I stopped at that point, Mr. Porter.
Similarly, the power to investigate must not be confused with any of the
powers of law enforcement ; those powers are assigned under our Constitution
to the executive and the judiciary. Still further limitations on the power to
investigate are found in the specific individual guaranties of the Bill of Rights,
such as the fifth amendment's privilege against self-incrimination which is in
issue here. (End of quote.)
Mr. Porter. Thank you.
Mr. Doyle. I stopped at that point because there have been misrep-
resentations throughout the Los Angeles area by an alleged committee.
Citizens Committee to Preserve American Freedoms, to the effect or
advertising that this decision was a unanimous one. Manifestly there
were two dissents.
I wish now to call attention to the fact that we are operating under
Public Law 601, the T9th Congress. That is the resolution, I take it, to
which you referred. In my concluding statement at this point, in view
of your observation, I have taken the position, and I still take the
position, that I recognize the right and I will fight for the right of
every American citizen to think what he pleases, to be what he pleases,
to write what he pleases, to pray the way he wants, and to live the way
he wants. But they have to do it within the four corners of the Con-
stitution of the United States. And that is what the Communist
Party of the United States does not do.
Mr. Porter. You can't have it both ways, Mr. Doyle. You can't be
a member of this committee and participate in its activities and carry
out what you say you believe in the statement you just made.
Mr. Doyle. I have been doing it and I feel pretty good about it.
I think I have uncovered or helped uncover some dangerous people
and dangerous programs tliat are designed to defeat the constitutional
Government of my country.
Mr. Moulder. May we proceed ?
Have you any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. SciiERER. Just one question.
You mentioned the National Lawyers Guild. Are you a member of
the National Lawyers Guild ?
Mr. Porter. I certainly am.
Mr. Scherer. It has been declared a Communist-front organiza-
tion, has it not, and been cited ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. That is all.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. You are excused as a witness, Mr, Porter. You may,
if you so desire, claim witness fees with the clerk who sits immediately
behind you.
Mr. Porter. May I make one brief statement in reply to Congress-
man Scherer's characterization of the National Lawyers Guild which
is misleading?
Mr. Moulder. We want to expedite the hearings as rapidly as
possible, Mr. Porter. You are now excused as a witness. The com-
mittee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken, there being present Repre-
sentatives Moulder, Doyle, and Scherer.)
4006 COIMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
(The committee was reconvened upon the expiration of the recess,
there being present Representatives Moulder, Doyle, and Scherer.)
Mr. Moulder. Will the people in the hearing room come to order
and be seated as quickly as possible.
Would you please call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Jessica Rhine Wildman. Will you come for-
ward, please?
Mr. Moulder. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn ? Do
you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Wildman. I do. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that you summon
my attorney, please, Mr. Margolis ?
Mr. Moulder. Is Mr. Margolis here ?
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
TESTIMONY OF JESSICA WILDMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BEN MAEGOLIS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ?
Mrs. Wildman. My name is Jessica Wildman.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please ident-
ify himself for the record ?
Mr. Margolis. Ben Margolis of Los Angeles.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't get the witness' last name.
Mrs. Wildman. Wildman.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that your present married name ?
Mrs. Wildman. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your married name prior to your mar-
riage to Mr. Wildman ?
Mrs. Wildman. My name was Jessica Rhine.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell Rhine ?
Mrs. Wildman. R-h-i-n-e.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of your marriage to Mr. Wild-
man ?
Mrs. Wildman. August 2, 1952.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you born, Mrs. Wildman ?
Mrs. Wildman. Chicago, 111.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mrs. Wildman. Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles ?
Mrs. Wildman. For approximately 2 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has been ?
Mrs. Wildman. Yes, sir. I am a graduate of the George Mason
High School in Alexandria, Va. George Mason was the author of the
Bill of Rights as appears in the Constitution of the State of Virginia,
and one of the most ardent sponsors of the Bill of Rights in the Consti-
tution of the United States of America.
Mr. Tavenner. Does that complete your educational training?
Mrs. Wir-DMAN. Well, I had one more year of school. For one year
I attended the art school at the Corcoran National Art Gallery in
Washington.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your em-
ployment has been since 1935 ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4007
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Since 1935 I have worked for various agencies of
the United States Government, for several ori^anizations and several
private business firms.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your first employment in the United
States Government ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Well, I am not quite sure whether when I worked
for the Civil Works Administration in the city of Washinj^ton, D. C,
it was part of the Washington, D. C. government or the Federal Gov-
ernment, but that was my first Government employment.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of that employment ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Either 1932 or 1933, 1 don't remember which.
Mr. Moulder. May I suggest to the witness the Civil Works Admin-
istration wasn't established until after 1932.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. It must have been 1933.
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. After that I went to work for the National Recov-
ery Administration.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the period of your employment there?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I don't know whether I started late in 1933 or early
in 1934. In any event, I worked there until January of 1936 or
December of 1935.
Mr. Tavenner. Then did you have other Government employment
after December ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. 1935or January 1936?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Yes. I worked following that for the Railroad Re-
tirement Board.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Was that in the city of Washington ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Yes, it was.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed by the Railroad Re-
tirement Board ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Well, that is a difficult question, too, because it was
one of those on-again off-again things. I went to work first for the
Railroad Retirement Board and then for a brief period, although I
continued to work for the Railroad Retirement Board on a research
project, I happened technically to be on the payroll of the WPA.
After that, having acquired civil service status, I returned to the pay-
roll of the Railroad Retirement Board and I remained there until
shortly before Pearl Harbor, some time in 1911.
Mr. Tavenner, All of that employment was in the city of Wash-
ington, was it not?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Almost all of it. All except for a very brief period
when I worked for the NRA in New York.
Mr. Tavenner. I meant to say all of your employment while you
were on the payroll of the Railroad Retirement Board and the WPA
was in the city of Washington ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Then, during 1941, did you take on new employ-
ment?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was that ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
774S6— 56— pt. 10 8
4008 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I was employed as assistant research director for
a labor union.
Mr. Tavenner. Plow long did that employment continue ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Until 1943.
Mr. TxWENNER. What labor organization was it ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Mr. Tavenner and Mr. Chairman, this is the first
question that I am going to decline to answer, and I am going to
decline this answer for two very simple reasons : First, that if 1 were to
answer it I would be voluntarily surrendering my rights to freedom
of speech, freedom of thought, and freedom of association. These
rights were fought too hard for by our forefathers for me to volun-
tarily surrender them just because a big stick is waved at me.
Secondly, if I were to answer this question and start down the path
laid out by this committee, at its end I would be either a groveling,
sniveling conformist or an unspeakable odious informer. I prefer to
remain a woman.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you direct the witness to answer ?
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. In addition to the first, let me say, I refuse to an-
swer the question, Mr. Chairman, and in addition to the reasons just
set forth I base my refusal on the Bill of Eights in its entirety, in-
cluding its spirit and its legislative background, and very specifically
on the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, Tth, 8th, 9th, and lOtli amendments.
Mr. Scherer. I think we should state for the record that we do not
accept the witness' answer because, obviously, to state what labor union
she was employed by cannot any more incriminate her than can her
stating what agencies of the Federal Government she was employed by.
And therefore it is obvious that she is not invoking the fifth amend-
ment in good faith, because I cannot, for the life of me, possibly see
how telling us what labor union she was employed by could incrimi-
nate her in any way.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Do you request that the witness be directed to
answer ?
Mr. Scherer. I think you have directed her.
Mr. Moulder. Mrs. Wildman, concerning any future questions pro-
pounded to you by counsel which you wish to decline to answer for the
reason stated, would it be agreeable with you to state that you are
reasserting the same reason which you have just stated by reference
thereto ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Yes, it would be, Mr. Chairman, provided you know
that if I think of additional reasons it is all right if I supplement that
answer from time to time.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. You indicated that you had changed your employ-
ment in 1 943.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was your new employment in 1943 ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I went to work as a person responsible for handling
War Labor Board cases for another labor union.
Mr. Tavenner. ITow long did ^ou work in that capacity?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Until election day of 1944.
Mr. Scherer. And wliat labor union was that that you worked for?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4009
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer that question for
the reasons previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion as to what labor union she was employed by.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Having been directed, the answer is the same : that
I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. And I restate what I said before, that I
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Mr. Chairman, can I comment on that for a minute ?
Mr. Scherer has expressed his opinion, and, to be sure, he is entitled
to his opinion. My opinion happens to be otherwise. And I mean,
this committee has attempted to smear organizations as well as indi-
viduals. And I think Mr. Scherer's opinion is incorrect, and I rely
on the grounds I just stated.
Mr. Scherer. When we do not accept the reasons advanced by a
witness for declining to answer, the Supreme Court has directed us
to tell the witness, before we can possibly hold him in contempt, that
we do not accept the answer, and state our reasons for not accepting
the answer. I am therefore complying strictly with the recent decision
of the Supreme Court directing us to make such a statement, because
I feel in this case the witness has subjected herself for contempt and
I must, in accordance with that decision, lay the basis for the motion
that I will make later asking that she be cited for contempt.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask if the Supreme
Court has directed the members of this committee to threaten and in-
timidate witnesses ?
Mr. Moulder. You are not being intimidated.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I certainly am being threatened.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer has made a statement which he has in
accordance with the decision of the court. It is our duty to advise you,
to warn you of the dangers involved in the event you are in contempt
of the committee. Therefore, this committee has had to notify you
that your failure to answer the question might make you subject to
contempt.
Is that correct, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No question about it.
Mr. Moulder. It is not for the purpose of intimidation nor is it in
the nature of a threat.
Mr. Scherer. It is a mandate clearly set forth in the Quinn and
Emspak cases which these people have been citing. I am trying to
follow the decisions of the Supreme Court. I don't agree with many
of the provisions in those decisions, but nevertheless, I realize that as
long as it is a decision of the Supreme Court I must and I will follow it.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. During the period of time between 1943 and 1944
when you say you represented a labor union in the handling of labor
cases, did your work require you to be in contact with members of
the National Labor Relations Board?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. No, it didn't.
Mr. Tavenner. Did your work require you to be in contact with the
National Labor Relations Board?
Mrs. Wildman. Oh, certainly.
4010 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. In the city of Washington?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Where ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. In the city of Philadelphia.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you located during any period of that time in
Denver ?
Mi'S. WiLDMAN. During which period of time?
Mr. Tavenner. 1943 to 1944.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. No.
^Ir.TAVENNER. Were you there at any other time?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that?
Mi's. WiLDMAN. Oh, wait a minute. I want to correct that earlier
answer.
I was in Denver in 1943, I didn't live there but I went there on a
business trip.
Mr. Tavenner. Did your trip have any connection with work be-
fore the National War Labor Board?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did 3'ou at any time have any contact Avitli the Na-
tional War Labor Board in Denver?
(Tlie vritness confei's with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. To the best of my recollection the answer is "iio.'^
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Philip Reno, an em-
ployee of the National War Labor Board in Denver?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. This question I shall refuse to answer on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know Philip Reno in Washington ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. This question I shall also refuse to answer on the
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. All right, now, the last em]:)loyment that you have
told us about was in 1944 for a labor union, the name of which you
lefuse to give us.
What was your next employment?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. My next employment was preparing War Labor
Board cases for anotlier labor union.
Mr. Tavenner. A different union.
Were your duties similar in the two instances?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the pei'iod of time you were so employed ?
INIrs. WiLDMAN. In that particular capacity — see, there was a period
of time out there, there was a period of time that I didn't work. I
am finding it a little bit difficult to reconstruct the dates. Sometime
fi"oni nineteen — from some time in 1945 until some time in 1947, I
believe.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed between 1944 and some time
in 1945 when you began tliis new employment?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Oh, I was employed giving birth to my third child.
Mr. Tavenner. During this period from 1945 to 1947, did you handle
any labor problems before the National Labor Relations Board in
Wasliington?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I am trying to recall, Mr. Tavenner. But I don't
remember having done so.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4011
Mr. Tavenner. What was your employment after 1947 ?
(Representative Donald L. Jackson entered the hearing room at tliis
point. )
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I became regional director for a labor union.
Mr. ScHERER. 'Wliat labor union ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN", I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point. )
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Having been directed to answer, my answer is the
same. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. And I restate for the record that we do not accept
that answer because we feel that she is improperly invoking the fifth
amendment in her refusal to answer as to what labor union she works
for.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Mr. Chairman, one, I would like to know whether
Mr. Scherer is speaking for the entire subcommittee. First, I would
like to know that. And then I would like to make another comment
on what he has to say.
Mr. Moulder. I understand that in invoking the provisions of the
Constitution you have stated all of the
Mrs. WiLDMAN. No, sir; I excluded article II because I don't have a
gun, and I excluded article III because the question of barracking
soldiers in my house hasn't come up. And I don't expect it to.
Mr. Moulder. You asked a question. The statement made by Con-
gressman Scherer is made by unanimous consent of ;;11 the committee.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Then, may I make a comment, Mr. Chairman: I
mean, is Mr. Scherer the only one entitled to make comments ?
Mr. Scherer. Regular order. You are here to answer questions or
invoke the fifth amendment and refuse to answer.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I would like to — I thought people had as much
rights as Congressmen did. I thouglit I am as good a person as you
are, even though you have a higher back to your chair.
Mr. Scherer. I don't happen to have belonged to the Communist
Party. That is the chief difference. Otherwise I think you are as
good a person as I am.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. May I make a brief comment, Mr. Chairman? I
assure you I won't take up much time.
Mr. Scherer. Do you deny that you were a member of the Commu-
nist Party, Madam ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I have asked tlie chairman a question, Mr. Scherer.
Do you have to be rude enough to interrupt before I get an answer?
Mr. Scherer. I ask for regular order.
Mr. Moulder. The request is refused. Will the witness please re-
spond to the questions asked by counsel, and let's proceed in an orderly
maimer.
Mr. Ta\t:nner, ]Mrs. Wildman, in 1947, when you were made re-
gional director of ;i labor union, were you director for the same labor
union that you were employed by between the years 1945 and 1947,
or was it a different union ?
4012 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mrs. WiLDMAN. It was the same one.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment after 1947 ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. After 1947 I became the executive secretary of yet
another organization.
Mr. Tavenner. Where?
Mrs.WiLDMAN. Where? Geographically, you mean ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Where were you ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Oh, at that time I was in Indianapolis, Ind.
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute, Mr. TaA^enner. I ask that the witness
tell us of what organization she became executive secretary after 1947.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer the question.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that the witness be directed to answer the
question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer the question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Scherer. The committee does not accept the answer for the rea-
sons I have stated. Let's get the record clear.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere was your office located in the city to which
you just referred?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Mr. Tavenner, first, I don't remember the address.
Second, if I did remember it, I wouldn't give it.
Mr. Ta\^nner. You said that your office was in Indianapolis, Ind.
Was it at 635 North Pennsylvania, room 304 ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the organization, of which you were then
the secretary, the Progressive Party of Indiana ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you secure your position as secretary of
the organization that you referred to ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. TA\nENNER. Your employment began in 1947 in that capacity.
How long did it last ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I am restricting my answer to what I have already
admitted, that I was the executive secretary of an organization, and I
continued to work in that capacity until January of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed after 1949 ?
Mrs.WiLDMAN. As a legal secretary,
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. In f\ law office in Indianapolis.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you also retain your position or office with the
organization that you had been with between 1947 and 1949 ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. You have told us you were employed by that organ-
ization from 1947 to 1949. Do you mean j^ou are telling us that you
will refuse to answer whether your employment continued after that
date? I can't understand that answer.
Mr. SciiERER. I ask tliat the witness be directed to answer the
question.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I am a little bit confused about the question.
Would you hold up just a minute, please?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4013
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Yes. Two things, Mr. Tavenner. What was that
question again ?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you read her the question ?
(The record was read by the reporter as follows:)
You have told us you were employed by that organization from 1947 to 1949.
Do you mean you are telling us that you will refuse to answer whether your em-
ployment continued after that date? I can't understand that answer.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. To the best of my recollection, I was not employed
by any organization during the time I was employed as a secretary in
a law office in Indianapolis.
Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time, did you retain your po-
sition, whether employed or not, or paid a salary or not?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. What position are you referring to, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. The position which you have described as secretary
of an organization which you would not name.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Oh. Then my answer would be as follows : I don't
recall, but if I did, I would decline to answer.
Mr. Tan^enner. Did you serve in any capacity on the staff of the or-
ganization, whether you were paid for the services or not? And by
the organization, I am referring to the one of which you said you were
the secretary.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I would give exactly the same answer to that as to
the previous question.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain employed after 1949 as
legal secretary in a laAv office?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Until sometime in 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. My next employment was as secretary in a law of-
fice in Philadelphia.
Mr. Taat.nner. Are you still employed there ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. In Philadelphia? No.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain employed in Philadel-
phia?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Until sometime in 1951.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Would you give us your next employment and each
successive employment to the present time, please ?
(Kepresentative Donald L. Jackson returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. After my employment in the law office in Philadel-
phia, I was employed as a secretary in a labor organization, which em-
ployment continued until August of 1952.
Thereafter I was employed briefly — I think it was in 1954, but I
wouldn't swear to it — in a law office in Butte, Mont., after which I
was employed briefly as a secretary for a labor organization.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you employed in the law office in
Butte, Mont.?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I honestly don't remember. It was an insignificant
job, and it was a month or two or perhaps three, but I don't remember.
4014 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed between 1952 and 1954, if
at all?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Oh, well, you know that included that period in
Butte in a law office for a brief period of time, and a brief period of
employment as a secretary for a labor organization.
What was the period that you were talking about? Until vchen ?
Mr. Tavenner. From 1952 to 1954.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Marg(ilis. That was not the question you asked, INIr. Tavenner.
It is very confusing.
Mr. Tavenner. She answered it. She said from 1952 on up until
she took a position as secretary for a labor organization; it included
the period of Butte, Mont.
Mr. Margolis. She asked you what period j^oiu" last question re-
ferred to.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. 1952 to 1954; didn't it? Oh. I thought to 1954.
Mr. Margolis. I don't think the record will show that.
Mr. Tavenner. Regardless of what it was, will you give us your
employment between 1952 and the present date ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Well, you know, I have covered part of it; yes.
In 1954 I went to work in a medical office in Los Angeles, and I am
currently employed there.
Mr. Tavexnior. Mrs. Wildman, during the course of extensive in-
vestigation in the city of Washington and other places, the committee,
in ascertaining for the first time the existence of 2 organized groups of
the ( 'Ommunist Party within the staff of the National Labor Relations
Board and also an organized group of the Communist Party within
the staff of a Senate subcommittee, discovered the existence of 8 other
organized groups of the Communist Party previously unknown to this
committee in various Government agencies. Professor Herbert Fuchs
testified that during 1936 and 1937 when he was employed by the
Wheeler subcommittee of the Senate, he was directed to form a group
of the Communist Party there, and during that period of time he, as
the leader of that group, met with the leaders of others groups of the
Communist Party organized within Government agencies on a section
level.
He told the committee the names of a number of those persons who
were leaders of these various groups.
I want to ask you to give the committee all of the information you
have about this section of the Communist Party of which Professor
Fuchs was a member.
(The witness confers Avitli her counsel.)
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Fuclis identified several persons as heads of
Commujiist Party groups and who met on a section level. One was
Eleanor Nelson.
Were you acquainted with Eleanor Nelson?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. How many questions do I have before me, Mr. Tav-
enner?
Mr. Tavenner. One ciuestion. Are you ac(puunted with Eleanor
Nelson ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer the question.
COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE L(5S ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4015
Mr. Moulder. For the reasons previously stated ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know the department or agency of the Gov-
ernment in which Eleanor Nelson worked ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know in what department or agency of the
Government Arthur Stein was employed?
]Mrs. WiLDiiAN. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Tavennek. Were you acquainted with Arthur Stein ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I also decline to answer that question.
Mr. Moulder. In all instances wliere jou say you decline to answer,
are you claiming the ]:)rivilege and reasserting the
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I am if it is necessary, Mr, Chairman. I under-
stand that I am required to, you know, state my reasons for declining
to answer only if I am directed to answer. Therefore, I have just
been declining. If this is incorrect, why, then, I will always say that
I am declining to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. You are incorrect in your first statement.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Well, then, retroactively I say all my declinations
are on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know in what branch of the Government in
the District of Columbia Philip Keno was then emploj^ed?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Philip Reno ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Did you know Reno as a member of the Communist
Party, Witness ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the groimds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what branch of the Government Sid-
ney Katz was employed ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Ta\"rnner. Did you know Sidney Katz ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how Julia Katz was employed ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Were you acquainted with her?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. SciiERER. The fact is. Witness, that you knew all of these peo-
ple mentioned, and you knew them to be members of the Communist
Party. Isn't that right ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Mr. Scherer, don't try to flummox me. I decline
to answer that question on the grounds previously stated.
INIr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Bernard Stern?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know in what branch of the Government
he was employed ?
4016 COlVliMUNIST ACTIVITIES iN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with the wife of Bernard
Stern?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Do you know in what branch of the Government
she was employed ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it not a fact that her name is Janet Buck Gaines
Stern, your sister ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. She was a Communist, wasn't she ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. All of these people, Mr. Tavenner, whom you are
naming, have been identified as members of the Communist Party or
have admitted membership in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Tavenner. Professor Fuchs testified before the committee,
under oath, that all of the persons I have named were leaders in various
groups of the Communist Party and met on a section level with him,
including Jessica Rhine, the present witness, now Mrs. Jessica Wild-
man.
]Mr. Scherer. And they were all employees of the Federal Govern-
ment?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. And they were leaders of various cells in various
agencies of the Federal Government ?
Mr. Tavenner. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. And these leaders met, as you say, on a sectional basis ?
Mr. Tavenner. That is correct. That was his testimony. I want
to ask this witness now whether or not she met on a section level with
Professor Fuchs and any of the persons whose names I have inquired
about.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Mr. Tavenner, first, the question, I believe, is based
on your assumption that this Fuchs person was truthfully testifying,
which is an assumption I don't make. But I do decline to answer the
question on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Is anything that Air. Fuchs said about you untrue —
that is, you being a member of the Commimist Party and meeting in
this sectional group ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Mr. Scherer, I am not going to get into a conflict
with this committee about tlie testimony of any informers. Informers
are universally accepted as unreliable characters. You may make
your assumptions about his testimony, and I am sure I am entitled to
make mine.
Mr. Scherer. You voluntarily said to Mr. Tavenner that his ques-
tion was based on the assumption that Fuchs' testimony was true. I
am asking you whether any part of Fuchs' testimony, as it related to
COMMUNIST ACTWITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4017
jou and your membersliip and activities in the Communist Party, was
untrue ?
In other words, did he lie to this committee in any respect? You
have the opportunity to tell us ri^^lit here and now as to whether
Fuchs, this man whom you call an mformer, was telling the truth or
whether he was lying to this committee.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. If you say that he was lying to the committee, then I
will ask that the Fuchs testimony be referred to the Department of
Justice.
Was Fuchs lying ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Are you through, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes, I am.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I thought you would. You declined properly. I
think you properly invoked the fifth amendment because if you had
said that Fuchs was lying, in my opinion you would have been com-
mitting perjury.
Mrs. WiLDMAx. I think if I had admitted any association whatever
with Fuchs I would be testifying against myself. And I don't think
your opinion means anything, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Ta\tenner. At the time Professor Fuchs identified you as hav-
ing attended these Communist Partj'^ meetings on a section level — tliat
is, as a representative of a gi-oup of the Communist Party — you, ac-
cording to your statement, were emplo3'ed by the Railroad Retire-
ment Board. While you were employed by the Railroad Retirement
Board, was there a person known to you by the name of Abraham
George Silverman connected with that organization?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I knew of him at the Railroad Retirement Board.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Abraham George Silverman pla^ any part in
obtaining your employment with the Board or in retaining you on
the Board after you were employed there ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Not as far as I know, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Taa^nner. Was he known to you as a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. You know I decline to answer that question on the
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tamsxner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
there was an organized group of the Communist Party, composed
principally of employees, in the Railroad Retirement Board?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. According to your testimony, intermittently during
your employment by the Railroad Retirement Board, you were as-
signed to duties with the WPA up until 1941. During that period of
time was there an organized group of the Communist Party in Wash-
ington among the staff or employees of the WPA ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. That is a funny question, because first it is inac-
curate. I didn't sa,j intermittently. I said for one brief period I
happened to be technically on WPA payroll but I was working for the
4018 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Kailroad Retirement Board. There wasn't anything intermittent
about it. It was just that one period.
And beyond that, I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. So there was only one intermittent period. Regard-
less of number, was there an organized group of the Communist Party
when you were so employed ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I don't agree on the "one intermittent period." I
decline to answer the question on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Henry Collins ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with John J. Abt, A-b-t'?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Harry Dexter White?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the gi'ounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Harold Glasser ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Ta\T!:nnee. Were you acquainted with Charles Kramer ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. Those persons that you have recently mentioned were
the leading Communists in Government a few years ago.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Victor Perlo ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the gi'ounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. All of these persons that I have just mentioned, Mr.
Congressman, vcre identified as members of the Perlo group of the
Communist Party, including also Henrj^ Rhine. I did not ask the
witness about Henry Rhine for a very obvious reason. Henry Rhine
has been before this committee in our recent hearings in Washington
and has refused to answer material questions, relying on the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Scherer. And that group, or pait of them at least, participated
in considerable espionage activities within the Government?
Mr. Tavenner. That was true, according to the testimony of Eliza-
beth T. Bentley. I should point out also that Professor Fuchs stated
that during a part of the period — I am not sure that it was the entire
period between 1036 and 1941 — but for at least part of that period, he
was required to report to his superior, who was Victor Perlo.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Excuse me, INIr. TaA'enner, you mentioned Professor
Fuchs several times. The witness, I think, referred to him as an
informer.
]VIrs. WiLDMAN. Yes, I did.
Mr. DoTLE. Wlio was Professor Fuchs, whom slie described as a?;
informer? I know he has testified before the connnittee and named
these people as Communists. Who was he with reference to Govern-
ment employment ?
COMMLHSriST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4019
Mr. Tavenner. Professor Fuchs became solicitor in the National
Labor Relations Board, and later became th*e public member of the
National War Labor Board in Denver.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. He w^ithdrew from the Communist Party in 1946
and after that period of time became a professor of law at American
University, Washington, D. C.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Isn't this all really a publicity discussion going on
here? I don't see any search for information going on here now.
Mr. ScHERER. No, I think the committee is vitally interested in
seeing that no more individuals like you obtain employment in the
Government of the United States. That is what ^ve are interested
in. And we are going to pass legislation and do everything w^e can
to see that that period in our history is never repeated.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. I have one question to ask the witness. How do
you know that Professor Fnchs is an informer ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I read about it in the newspapers.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, the reason I asked counsel to tell us
who Professor Fuchs was was to have those in the hearing room
know and have the record show clearly that he was just not any un-
usual person, or any incidental person, but that he was a person in
high Government employ. And I assume he knew what he was talking
about when he swore under oath that this witness was a member of
the Communist Party.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, please, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ciiairman, the members of the staff made an
investigation back in 1950 regarding the National Committee to De-
feat the Munclt Bill, and the committee issued a report based on testi-
mony resulting from that investigation. The Mundt bill was the one
which originated in the Committee on Un-American Activities, and
which is now before the Supreme Court. It is the Internal Security
Act of 1950, requiring the Communist Party and front organizations
to register, and which incorporated provisions of the Wood bill.
I have before me exhibits 17, 19, 23, and 38 of the hearing held on
October 19, 1950. The hearing developed that the officers of the Na-
tional Lawyers Guild, in Washington, were made available to the
National Committee to Defeat the Mundt Bill, for the purpose of
lobbying against and opposing that bill. And the National Lawyers
Guild defrayed some very heavy items of expense in connection with
that work.
Mr. ScHERER. The National Lawyers Guild, I forgot to say before,
has been found to be the legal arm of the Communist Party of the
United States.
Mr. Margolis. Without a hearing, and with the same kind of due
process you get right here. That is how it has been found. And it
has asked for a hearing and never been given one.
Mr. Moulder. Let's proceed, please.
Mr. Tavenner. The National Committee to Defeat the Mundt Bill
sent telegrams to various organizations and various Progressive Party
officers throughout the country, as shown by these exhibits, for the
purpose of opposing the legislation. Exhibit 17 of the hearing held
on October 19, 1950, states that a copy of a telegram was addressed
4020 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
to Jessica Ehine, Progijessive Party of Indiana, 635 North Pennsyl-
vania, Room 304, Indianapolis, Ind. And other similar telegrams
were addressed to her under the same address.
I would like to ask the witness whether she recalls having received
in 1950 the various telegrams from the National Committee To De-
feat the Mundt Bill in Washington in her capacity as secretary of
the Progressive Party of Indiana ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Mr. Tavenner, now you are trying to flummox me.
I refuse to answer that question on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. What does the word "flummox" mean, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. I am not interested.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. It is in the dictionary, Mr. Scherer ; I promise. It
means to engage in tomfoolery.
Mr. Tavenner. In the context in which it was used, I am not
interested.
Were you a member of the Communist Party on the 27th day of
August, 1950?
Mr. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
employed by the Railroad Retirement Board ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated ?
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time during the period between 1941 and 1949 while employed by
various labor unions and while serving as a regional director of a
labor union ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mrs. WiLDMAN. May I take time and a half for Saturday?
Mr. Moulder. Pardon me?
Mrs. WiLDMAN. Do they pay time and a half for Saturday on wit-
ness fees ?
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
The committee will stand in recess until 1 : 30.
(Whereupon, at 11 : 50 a. m., a recess was taken until 1 : 30 p. m.,
this same dav, there being present Representatives Moulder, Doyle,
and Scherer.)
AFTERNOON SESSION, APRIL 21, 1956
(The committee was reconvened at 1 : 50 p. m., upon the expiration
of the recess, there being present Representatives Moulder and
Scherer. )
Mr. Moulder. The committee will please be in order.
COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4021
Let the record show, that the Honorable Francis Walter, chairman
of the full Committee on Un-American Activities, has appointed a
subcommittee consisting of three : Myself as chairman of the subcom-
mittee, Mr. Doyle, of California, and Congressman Scherer, of Ohio,
to conduct the hearings in Los Angeles, Calif., on this date and on any
future date until the hearings have been adjourned.
Mr. Tavenner. A majority of which are present.
Mr. Moulder. And the record should also show that there are pres-
ent myself, as chairman of the subcommittee, and Congressman
Scherer, of Ohio, constituting a quorum or a majority of the subcom-
mittee duly appointed and established by the chairman of the full
committee.
Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. Will Mr. Louis Sherman come forward,
please ?
Mr. Moulder. Please raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you, God ?
Mr. Sherman. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS R. SHERMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BEN MARGOLIS
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Sherman. Louis Sherman.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have a middle initial ?
Mr. Sherman. R.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify himself for the record.
Mr. Margolis. Ben Margolis of Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Sherman?
Mr. Sherman. Chicago, 111., January 15, 1910.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Sherman. Los Angeles.
Mr. TA^^:NNER. How long have you resided in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Sherman. For about 37 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been.
Mr. Sherman. I have completed high school at Polytechnic Eve-
ning High School. I have had about 2 j^ears of school at the extension
division of the formerly Los Angeles City College and University of
California.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in California ?
Mr. Sherman. 37 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your em-
ployment has consisted of since 1935 ?
Mr. Sherman. For the past 18 to 20 years I have been employed
within the warehouse industry in Los Angeles, for various companies.
And presently I am an officer of local 26, the secretary and treasurer of
the International Longshoremen and Warehousemen's Union, better
known as ILWU.
Mr. Tavenner. How louo- have you bt^en secretary-treasurer of local
26?
4022 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Sherman. For about 7 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that period liow were you employed ?
Mr. Sherman. I was president of local 26, ILWU.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time 'i
Mr. Sherman. For about 3 to 3i/^ years.
Mr. Tavenner. And that takes us back 10 years.
How were you employed prior to that time ?
Mr. Sherman. I was in the United States Army for about 2 years
and 9 months.
Mr. Tavenner. That was during what period of time ?
Mr. Sherman. From 1943 to late 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. And prior to 1943 what was your employment ?
Mr. Sherman. I was employed by the international union, the In-
ternational Longshoremen and Warehousemen's Union, assigned to
local 26 as a representative, and served in that capacity as an organizer,
a business agent, among other duties.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time, please, sir ?
Mr. Sherman. From early 1941 to the middle of 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us, please, what your employment was
prior to 1941?
Mr. Sherman. I worked as a drug worker for the Brunswick Drug
Co.
Mr. Tavenner. Where ?
Mr. Sherman. In Los Angeles, from 1939 to 1941.
Mr. Tavenner. And prior to 1939 ?
Mr. Sherman. I worked for a number of various companies within
the industry like Zellerbach Paper Co., Crane Co., and perhaps a few
others I don't remember.
Mr, Tavenner. Does that take care of your employment back ap-
proximately through the year 1935 ?
Mr. Sherman. I believe so.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time legally changed your name ?
Mr. Sherman. This is my name.
Mr. Tavenner. Plave you used any other name ?
Mr. Sherman. I have been known as Lou Sherman for many, many
years.
Mr. Ta^t^nner. Is that your name ? Lou Sherman ?
Mr. Sherman. That is my name.
Mr. ScHERER. Are you going to follow through on that ?
Mr. Tavenner. You say Lou Sherman is your name.
Have you had any other name ?
Mr. Sherman. I would decline to answer that question
Mr. Sciierer. I ask you to direct the witness to answer the question.
The witness said he declined to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. SnER:MAN. I would decline to answer that question, and invoke
the constitutional privileges.
If you want me to specify, I shall do so.
Mr. MouLDKR. That is up to you, wliether you desire to specify or not.
Mr. Sherman. I decline to answer that question. I claim the priv-
ilege accorded me by the United States Constitution, its Bill of Kights,
specifically the first amendment of the United States Constitution
which in this hearing room has not been adliered to, and the fifth
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4023
amendment of the United States Constitution which has been distorted
by certain members of this committee, and which has been interpreted
to imply guilt by any so-called uncooperative witness, but which, to
me, affords the same protection to the innocent as well as to the guilty.
I also invoke the ninth and tenth amendments of the United States
Constitution, which delegates only certain powers to you as Congress-
men, but retain the full power to the people of the United States.
Mr. ScHERER. I know you are directing your remarks to me, but
what do you expect me to infer of you or any other citizen who refuses
to tell us what other name he used and why he used another name?
Mr. Sherman. I don't particularly care what you infer.
Mr. Scherer. I understand that. But I and any other citizen, the
press, have a right to infer that there is something sinister if you refuse
to disclose Avhat other name you used and why you used another name.
Is tliat right? Under the first amendment I have that right.
Mr. Sherman. If you accorded the witness the same privileges under
the first amendment perhaps there would be so many more witnesses
that might give greater respect to the functioning of this committee.
As far as I am concerned, I will stand on the privileges I have
claimed, and stand on the answer I have given you.
Mr. Tavenner. Under what name were you born ?
]\Ir. Sherman. I refuse to answer the question for the same reasons
outlined earlier.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion because I do not accept the answer. I can't conceivably see how
to answer the question under what name he was born could possibly
incriminate this individual.
Obviously it is not invoking the fifth amendment in good faith.
Mr. INIouLDER. The witness is directed to answer the question as
requested by Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Sherman. I will again repeat that I refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the grounds earlier stated.
INIr. Tavenner. Under what name were you married ?
Mr. Sherman. I will again refuse to answer the question on the
same grounds originally stated.
Mr. Scpierer. I move you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Scherer. I think we should again say that we do not accept the
answer, and we feel that his refusal to answer those questions in all
probability will subject him to a prosecution by this committee for
contempt.
]\Ir. T^IouLDER. Therefore, the witness is directed to answer in order
to protect his interest as suggested by IMr. Scherer.
]Mr. Sherman. I will again repeat that I refuse to answer this ques-
tion on the grounds earlier stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Aren't you Louis K. Schneiderman ?
Mr. Sherman. I will again refuse to answer on the grounds earlier
stated.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Did you institute in court a proceedmg for divorce
under the name of Louis R. Schneiderman ?
ISIr. Sherman. I again refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
77436— 56— pt. 10 9
4024 coivoroNiST activities in the los angeles, calif,, area
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to a^s^Yer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
In order to give you an opportunity to answer the question, you are
again directed to answ^er.
Mr. Sherman. I will again refuse to answer the same question on
the grounds earlier stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Aren't you a brother of William Schneiderman?
Mr. Sherman. I again refuse to answer the question for the grounds
earlier stated.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your father's name ?
Mr. Sherman. I again refuse to answer the question for the grounds
earlier stated.
Mr. SciiERER. I ask that you direct ihe witness to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Sherman. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
earlier stated.
Mr. ScHERER. Again let it be understood that we do not accept that
answer, and feel that it is an improper invocation of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Moulder. It is so understood.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Louis Rosser testified before the Committee on
Un-American Activities in executive session on January 15, 1952, at
which time he was asked the question :
Do you know Lou Sherman ?
To which he replied:
Yes. Lou Sherman is a brother of William Schneiderman, and I knew him
as a trade-union director of the Young Communist League, and then later on
as an organizer in the warehousemen's union.
Was Mr. Ilosser's statement true or false insofar as it related to your
relationship with William Schneiderman ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sherman. Your question relates to a matter that I believe 1
have just answered earlier. If that is so, I again refuse to answer on
the same grounds stated earlier.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. JNfax Silver testified in executive session l>efore
this committee on the 2-tth day of Januar}^ 1952, in which he stated :
Lou Sherman, brother to William Schneidern)an, was organizer for the long-
shoremen in Los Angeles.
Is his statement true or false, insofar as it relates to your connection
with William Schneiderman ?
Mr. Sherman. It appears to me that your questions are going to
relnte to the testimony of informers and stool pigeons.
]\Ir. Tavenner. You have the opportunity, sir, to tell this committee
whether or not you are Louis R. Schneiderman, and I am trying my
best to find out who you are. So again I will ask you to answer the
question.
Mr. SirER:\[AN. I don't believe that I may ever satisfactorily answer,
to the satisfaction of your committee, the answer to your question.
Mr. Tavenner. There would be no difficulty in answering that ques-
tion.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4025
Mr. Sherman, My answer is : My identity, my work, my integrity,
the things that I have done for 20 or 25 years or more are well known
to the members of the organization that I belong to.
Mr. ScHERER. Do they know you are a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Sherman. And represent at the present time.
Mr. ScHERER. Do the members of the organization you represent
know you are a member of the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sherman. If this committee proposes to subpena the 2,200 mem-
bers of this union, that is their prerogative. If it does it only proves
what they have been saying to the members of our union about the
purposes of this committee.
Mr. Scherer. We want the people of your union to know everything
about you.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer my ques-
tion, and also state his real name.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Sherman. I refuse to answer that question. I will also state
that the comments of Congressman Scherer assume something which
are only his private opinions.
Mr. Scherer. Is my assumption that 3^ou are a member of the Com-
munist Party incorrect ?
Mr. Sherman. My purpose in being here is at
Mr. Scherer. Answer the question.
Mr. Sherman. Is at the discretion and request of the committee.
Mr. Scherer. Is my assumption then, or my statement, that you are
a member of the Communist Party or were a member of the Communist
Party untrue?
Mr. Sherman. My answer is that my private opinions, my associa-
tions, my background, my history, the work that I have been doing as
a representative of the union for many years, is my ]Drivate right guar-
anteed to me by the United States Constitution and, therefore, I don't
have to account to Mr. Scherer or any other Congressman for those
opinions, associations, or background, and, for that reason, I will
decline and refuse to answer this question on the grounds already
earlier stated.
Mr. Moulder. It has often been alleged by certain people that per-
sons who are charged with having been members of the Communist
Party on the witness stand before this conunittee have not had the
opportunity to deny and defend themselves in a public forum or public
hearing before this committee. That opportunity is now being given
to you.
When you refer to someone as an informer or a stool pigeon it does
not occur to me as availing yourself of the full opportunity of denying
or affirming the allegations that were read to you by Mr. Tavenner.
I just wanted to make that comment and call it to your attention. It
is not in the form of a question, but a conmient by the Chair.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sherman. I would like to comment on that, Mr. Moulder.
This may be a forum in the opinion of some Members of the Con-
gress who serve on the committee, but I regard the objectives of this
4026 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
committee as being un-American in that they repress the rights of
people to stand on their constitutional rights.
I have many times been called a Communist in my dealings with
certain employers as a representative of the union. For many years
the union that I represent has been maligned, abused, and character-
assassinated by unfriendly employers and unfriendly Government of-
ficials. I have never stooped to the level of answering these accusa-
tions because I consider them the result of my doing a job for the
members of my union.
Mr. ScHEREK. These people who have called you a Communist and
charged you with being a Communist : Were they doing so correctly ?
Mr. Sherman. I don't care what motivated them to call me a Com-
munist. I have been called that and other names as a result of the po-
sition that I have taken in behalf of the union.
Mr. ScHERER. That is not my question.
I ask you to direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Sherman. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
earlier stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, in light of the witness' refusal to
fully identify himself, I would like to ask him to step down from the
witness chair for just a moment, and I will call another witness. We
will recall him later.
Mr. Moulder. You are temporarily excused, but you will be recalled.
(Witness temporarily excused.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. William Kimple.
Mr. Moulder. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn,
please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. kiMPLE. I do.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WARD KIMPLE
Mr. Tavenner. A^'liat is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Kimple. William Ward Kimple, K-i-m-p-1-e.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Kimple, have you ever been employed in an
official capacity by the city of Los Angeles?
Mr. Kimple. I have.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your employment?
Mr. Kimple. Los Angeles police officer.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time were you so employed?
Mr. Kimple. 1924 to 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time did you perform any
secret assignment within the Communist Pari y ?
Mr. Kimple. I was assigned by the Los Angeles Police Department
to investigate the activities of the Conmiunist Party in Los Angeles ;
yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become a member of the Communist Party
in carrying out that assignment ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4027
Mr. KiMPLE. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the period of your membership ?
]\fr. KiMPLE. I joined the Communist Party in 1928, and main-
tained continuous membership until the fall of 1939.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any position in the Communist Party ?
Mr. KiMPLE. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. IVhat was that position ?
Mr. KiMPLE. Well, several positions. I was a unit organizer and
a unit literature ai^ent, and a unit educational director. I was the
assistant to the Los Ano-eles County membership director, and I was
the alternate on the Los Angeles disciplinary committee.
Those are a few of the main jobs I lield.
Mr. Tavenner. You were assistant membership director?
Mr. KiMPLE. For the Los Angeles County membership department,
yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time did you hold that posi-
tion ?
Mr. KiMPLE. 1936, 1937, 1938 and 1939, up until the time I was
dropped from the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. As assistant membership director, did you have
access to the membership records of the Communist Party of Los
Angeles ?
Mr. KiJiiPLE. The Communist Party membership records were in my
personal control at all times ; yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were yoii in the hearing room at the time the
previous witness was excused temporarily from the witness stand?
Mr. KiMPLE. I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know his name?
Mr. KiMPLE. I know the name that I knew him by, yes, sir.
Ml". Tavenner. What is that name ?
Mr. KiMPLE. Louis Schneiderman, brother of William Schneider-
man. I knew him very well here in Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you identify the individual who preceded you
on the stand as being the Louis Schneiderman that you knew ?
Mr. KiMPLE. He is the same one ; yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. On what do you base the statement that he is the
same person you knew as Louis Schneiderman ?
Mr. KiMPLE. I was very well acquainted with William Schneider-
man and Louis Schneiderman at the time that T was in the Communist
Party here. I worked closely with liim. I used to cart him around in
my automobile considerably, and I knew him very well.^
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend any closed Communist Party meet-
ings with him ?
Mr. KiMPLE. I have.
Mr. Tav'enner. How frequently?
Mr. KiMPLE. A minimum of 4 or 5 times a year during the years
of 1935, 1936.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you what purports to be a 1938 registration
blank of the industrial section, and ask you to state what it is.
(Document handed to the witness.)
4028 COMMUNIST ACTWITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. KiMPLE. That is an authentic 1938 Communist Party registra-
tion blank. From this registration blanli the Communist Party
membership books were made, and the Communist Party membership
records maintained.
Mr. Tavennp:r. What connection, if any, have you had with that
particular blank which is before you ?
Mr. KiMPLE. This particular blank was filled out in the Communist
Party unit and sent back to the membership department, and from
this blank the membership book for the year 1938 was filled out, and
the 1938 membership record for the Communist Party membership
records was made out,
Mr. Tavenner. Does that blank show the name of the person who
registered for the year 1938 ?
Mr. KiMPLE. It does.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the name ?
Mr. KiMPLE. Lou Schneiderman.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to oli'er a photostatic copy of the document
in evidence, and ask that it be marked "Kimple Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked and admitted in
evidence. (See p. 4029.)
Mr. Moulder. May I inquire, does it have a signature on it?
Mr, Tavenner. No. It is a printed name.
I hand you another card, which is marked "Kimple Exhibit No. 2"
for identification only, and ask you to tell us what it is.
Mr. Kimple. This is the control card for the first half of 1937 in the
Communist Party membership records and in the Communist Party
membership book. The last page in the membershijD book is a control
card, and at the end of June of the year the membership department
checks the membership books, and if the member is paid up in dues
this control card is filled out, detached from the book and sent back to
the membership department. That way the membership department
Imows that it has an active, dues-paying member.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that an original record ?
Mr. Kimple. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Whose control card is it ?
Mr. Kimple. That is also for Louis Schneiderman,
Mr. Tavenner. Will you read what appears on the card ?
Mr. Kimple. Printed is :
Control card, first half of 1937. Book No. 75373.
And I might add here that the book nmnber of the Communist
Party membership book and the control card were the same.
iVame : Louis Schneiderman. State —
and then there is a date —
6-22-37. County : L. A. City : L. A. District 13. Section IND—
which meant industrial.
Unit : Teamsters. Occupation : driver. Union : Teamsters. Mass organization :
filaiilv. Male: yes. Female : blank. Age : 27. Negro : blank. White —
with an X.
Native : with an X, Foreign-born : blank. Dues paid up to and including month
of June.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4029
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4030 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer a photostatic copy of the document
in evidence, and ask that it be marked "Kimple Exhibit No. 2."
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked and admitted in evi-
dence.
Kimple Exhibit No. 2
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Mr. Tavenner. I notice from Exhibit No. 2 that the form of the
card is such that the individual must indicate whether he is a Negro
or white person.
The Communist Party must know whether the individual is a
Negro or a white person. That is correct, is it not ?
Mr. Kimple. That is correct, yes, sir.
Mr. Tavexner. Were all of the records of the Communist Party
at that time required to be kept in that form ?
Mr. Kimple. I am sorry. I don't quite understand your question.
Mr. Tavenner. Were all of the control cards of the Communist
Party members during the period that you were a member of the
Communist Party required to show whetlier a member was a member
of the Negro race or the white race ?
Mr. Kimple. They were, yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. "\Vliy was that ?
Mr. Kimple. Well, the Communist Party kept an annual list of
all Comnmnist Party members, and it was broken down as to nation-
ality, race, color, et cetera.
Mr. Tavenner. So much has been said by representatives of the
Communist Party as to there being no distinction or no discrimina-
tion between race or color, and I w^as wondering the reasons for ask-
ing what one's race is on the card.
I hand you another document and ask you to examine it. It is
marked "Kimple Ex]iil)it No. 3" for identification only.
COMlMUlSriST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4031
Will you tell us what it is, please.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. KiMPLE. That is a 1938 Communist Party membership book,
made out to L. Sclmeiderman, State of California, District 13, County
Los Angeles, City Los Angeles, Section Industrial, Unit Teamsters,
and the book was issued on the 12tli month, the 8th day, in the 3Tth
year. And it carries the official Communist Party seal with the
stamped signature of W. Sclmeiderman. It is paid up in dues through
the month of October.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state whether or not that is the original
Communist Party book of Louis Sclmeiderman ?
INIr. KiMPLE. It is, yes, sir.
Mr. Taventster. The same person who appeared just ahead of you
on the witness stand ?
Mr. KiMPLE. It is.
Mr. Tavenner. And answered to the name of Louis Sherman?
Mr. KiMPLE. Yes, it is.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer a photostatic co])y of the document
in evidence, and ask that it be marked "Kimple Exhibit No. 3."
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked and admitted in
evidence. (See pp. -1032 and 4033.)
May I ask now, on what do j^ou base your answer that this docu-
ment is his Communist Party book.
Mr. Kimple. My knowledge of it. I base my answer on that, on the
personal acquaintanceship I had with him, knowing him, knowing
in what part of the Communist Party he was functioning, and rec-
ognizing this book as an official Communist Party book made out to
him. And there was oidy one Louis Sclmeiderman in the Communist
Party here in Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Or do you want him temporarily excused ?
Mr. Tavenner. I would like for him to stand aside.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is temporarily excused.
Mr. Kimple. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. The subpena which has been served upon you will
remain in full force and effect (Witness temporarily excused.)
Mr. Ta\'enner. Now may I ask Mr. Sherman to return to the wit-
ness stand.
4032 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
KiMPLE Exhibit No. 3
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COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4033
KiMPLE Exhibit No. 3 — Continued
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I :-. . . : ,...■._■•: .. " '■ ' - - %
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS R. SHERMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BEN MARGOLIS— Resumed
Mr. Ta\'exxer. Mr. Sherman, I hand you "Kimple Exhibit No. 3,"
and ask you to examine it and tell the committee whether or not that
was your Communist Party membership book.
(Document placed on the witness table.)
Mr. Sherman. I refuse to answer that question. Mr. Tavenner, on
the same ground earlier stated.
Mr. Tamenner. Did you examine the book ?
Mr. Sherman. No, I did not.
Mr. ScHERER. I want to ask one question.
You have just heard the testimony of William Kimple, have you
not?
Mr. Sherman. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Is anything that William Kimple told this commit-
tee about you untrue ?
Mr. Sherman. Mr. Kimple is well known in this area, I understand,
as an informer and a stool pigeon.
I would not engage in any debate or discussion on the subject.
Therefore, I refuse to answer the question.
Air. ScHERER. I think he is a line Am.erican and has done a gxeat
job here in the Los Angeles area.
But, whether you class him as a stool pigeon or not, my question is
whether or not anything he said about you is untrue, no matter what
you call him.
Mr. Sherman. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
earlier stated.
Mr. ScHERER. We always talk about drawing an inference. I am
just going to ask what other inference can anyone draw than that
4034 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Kimple was telling the absolute truth because you refuse to even deny
one iota of his testimony when you have an opportunity to do so,
4ind have had an opportunity to hear his testimony.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. Who can criticize anybody for drawing an inference
from your invocation of the fifth amendment under those circum-
stances ?
Mr. SnERMiVN. Creatures who get paid money for being informers
and stool pigeons are the last ones in the world that should be listened
to or given any credence to.
Mr. ScHERER. But still you will not deny that he has told the truth?
Mr. SiiERMAN". I have answered the question on the grounds earlier
stated.
Mr. ScHERER. You refused to answer. You didn't answer.
Mr. Shermax. That is right, I refuse to answer in case there is
any doubt in your mind.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Schneiderman
Mr. Sherman. My name is Sherman, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you deny your name is Schneiderman ?
Mr. Sherman. I have answered that question.
Mr. Scherer. I ask you to direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Sherman. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
earlier stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Schneiderman, I hand you a copy of a March
25, 1947, issue of the Daily People's World, and call your attention to
an article reciting that Lou Sherman, president, CIO, Warehouse-
men's Union, Local 26, and others had formed a citizens' comniittee
to elect Elsie M. Monjar, Communist, running for the city council.
Will you examine the article, please.
( Document placed on the witness table. )
Mr. TA^T.NNER. Will you state to the committee whether or not in
1947 you were endeavoring to assist the Communist Party in the area
of Los Angeles by the formation of such a committee as referred to
in that article ?
Mr. Sherman. I repeat, Mr. Tavenner, I am not accountable to
this committee for any of my beliefs, my associations, my backgi'ound
and my history.
Therefore, I refuse to answer your question, again on the same con-
stitutional gi-ounds.
Mr. TA^^2NNER. I hand you the December 19, 1947, issue of the
Daily People's World, and call your attention to an article entitled
"Keal Busy Meeting. Local 26 "Elects, Registers Petitions."
(Document placed on the witness table.)
Mr. TA\a:NNKR. Will you examine it ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr, Tavenner. Is there any reason why you do not desire U)
examine it?
Mr. Sherman. Will you repeat the question?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the paper that I have presented
to you ?
'( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Sherman. I don't care to examine the document. Will you
kindly repeat the question ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4035
Mr. Tavenner. Do you fully recall what I am speaking about
without refreshing your recollection by examining the article?
Mr. Sherman. I fail to see any connection between the registration
of citizens to vote and a Communist plot.
Mr. Ta^tinner, Alay I have the article ?
(Document handed to Mr. Tavenner.)
Mr. Ta\^enner. This article shows that a total of 110 petitions of
the Independent Progressive Party were being circulated at your
local meeting at a time when you were president.
Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not that was being
done at the instance of and as a part of the plan of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Sherman. It seems to me that your question deals with a matter
relating to what our union did at a certain time.
I don't propose to get into any discussion about any of the internal
affairs of our union. The executive board of our union has decided
that this committee is not serving a useful legislative purpose, and
members subpenaed before it should not cooperate to that extent.
What you are insinuating
Mr. Scherer. You say that is a decision of the union ?
Mr. Sherman. It is a matter relating to the internal affairs of
our union.
JNIr. Scherer. You say it is a decision of the union that the mem-
bers shall not cooperate with the committee ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sherman. I am repeating a very brief version, by the way,
some of the substance of what the position is that was adopted by the
executive board of our imion last Wednesday night.
Mr. Scherer, How many of that executive board are members of
the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Margolis. Why don't you let him answer one question at a time
instead of constantly interrupting, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. I will ask these questions the way I see fit.
Mr. Margolis. You appear to be doing that.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sherjean. I have lost track of the questions, Mr. Tavenner.
I am not sure which of the two I should answer first.
Mr. Scherer. I will withdraw the first question, and ask you
Mr. Sherman. ^Vliich one do you want me to answer ?
Mr. Scherer. Ask you how many members of your executive board
are members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Sherman. I don't think I should dignify your question with
any suggestion of an answer. I would refuse on constitutional grounds
to answer that question.
I thought that Mr. Tavenner was asking something relating to a
policy or a position that was adopted by our union.
Mr. Tavenner. No, I absolutely did not. I did not ask you for any
action taken by your union. I am asking for action that was taken
by you or some other person in presenting 110 petitions at that meeting.
To be more specific, did you present any of the 110 petitions at
thatmeetine:?
4036 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Sherman. I will refuse to answer your question on the grounds
that discussing any of the affairs of a labor union are really not the
property of this committee. But I will take the liberty, if I am allowed
to read a portion of a statement adopted by our union executive board
dealing with this matter
Mr. SciiERER. As long as he is refusing to answer and takes the fifth
amendment, he cannot read any statement. If he answers the ques-
tions, we will give him all day to read a statement. But he hasn't
answered one significant question we have asked. He has refused to
answer.
Mr. Sherman. Let the record show, Mr. Chairman — —
Mr. ScHERER. He hasn't even told us what his name is,
Mr. Sherman. That the witness has not limited his claim of priv-
ilege to the fifth amendment only. Only Mr. Scherer seems
Mr. Scherer. It is the only one we recognize.
Mr. Sherman. Mr. Scherer seems to prefer the fifth amendment.
I will repeat: Any privileges claimed before this committee are the
1st and Sth amendments and the 9th and 10th amendments of the
United States Constitution,
Mr. Moulder. Yes ; the record reveals that.
Mr. Spierman. I would also like to ask at this time, since reference
has been made to a policy adopted by the union, that the union execu-
tive board statement adopted Wednesday night of this week be intro-
duced into tlie record as the official statement that I introduce in my
own behalf. I subscribe to it. I will adhere to every single word in it,
and I offer it in evidence.
Mr. Moulder. The statement will be filed.
Mr. Scherer. No. I object to it being filed as a part of the record.
If he answers the question how m.an}^ Comnuinists were on the board
that adopted that statement, I will agree that it go in. But, until he
answers that, I object to any action of a union board with reference
to its attitude toward this committee being offered or made a part of
this record.
Mr. Sherman. That reinforces my belief, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. It is filed as a part of the proceedings. That doesn't
meaTT that it is a part of the printed record,
(The statement referred to was filed for the information of the com-
mittee to be retained in its files,)
Mr. Tavenner, Let me go back to the question I originally asked
you. It was not a matter relating to any policy of your union at all.
What I am iiiterested in is the policy of the Communist Party in the
promotion of the interest of tlie Independent Progressive Party. I
am going to ask you again who took the 110 petitions for the Inde-
pendent Progressive Party to your union meeting?
Mr. Sthorman. Do you want me to name the 110 people who circu-
lated petitions to put the Progressive Party on the ballot in California?
Mr. Tavenner, No, We have quite a bit of evidence about that.
But wlio took them to this meeting ?
Mr. Sherman. I really don't remember. But if I did I would still
refuse to answer the question on the same constitutional grounds.
Mr, Tavenner. Whose ])hin was it to take these petitions to your
meeting?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4037
Mr. Sherman. The same question
Mr. Tavenner. Was it the Communist Party ?
Mr. Sherman. With the same answer.
Mr. Tavennp:r. Were you aware of the plan of the Communist Party
to substitute the Independent Progressive Party for the Communist
Party on the ballot in the State of California ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Sherman. I think you are assuming something that is your
own private opinion. But I choose to refuse to answer your question.
Mr. Tavenner. You could probably enlighten the committee. The
committee has heard considerable evidence on that subject. In your
prominence possibly you could help the committee if you would, if you
were willing.
Mr. Sherman. I would never stoop to the level of the informers to
help this committee violate any part of the Bill of Rights of the Con-
stitution.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that because in 1947 you were a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Sherman. I have answered that. I refuse on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a subscriber to the Daily People's
World?
Mr. Sherman. Now we are dealing with the whole question of free-
dom of the press and freedom to read the press. I read a lot of news-
papers. It is part of my job as a representative of the union to read the
labor press and a lot of the other metropolitan papers in and around
the State of California.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please ?
Mr. Sherman. In response to that specific question, I don't believe
I have to answer as to Avhether I have read or subscribed to this par-
ticular paper or any other paper. I would refuse to answer that ques-
tion on constitutional grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. The question is whether or not you were a subscrib-
er. Does that change your answer i
Mr. Sherman. Xo. My answer is still the same.
Mr. Tavenner. According to the December 24, 11)47, issue of the
Daily People's World, you reminded the stewards of your union that
they should subscribe to the Daily People's World. Did you do that?
Mr. Sherman. I don't recall the incident, Mr. Tavenner, but if I
did I would still refuse to answer the question on the same consti-
tutional grounds. It happened to be an internal affair. That is the
right of a union — solely to determine its own affairs, and the right of
the members to determine the policies of the union and who their
officers and representatives shall be. If you intend to go into that
matter I shall refuse to answer that question on that particular ground
in addition to the usual grounds offered earlier.
Mr. ScHERER. May I make this observation, Mr. Chairman, that the
union certainly does have the right to determine its own internal affairs
and elect its own officers. But the union in so doing should have all
of the facts concerning its officers.
Mr. Sherman. Are you proposing to be
Mr. Scherer. Some facts should not be hidden from them.
Mr. Sherman. Are you proposing to be the last word ?
4038 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE I OS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. Namely, Communist membership of some of its offi-
cers. If they know that and still want to elect them, then that is per-
fectly all right.
Mr. Sherman. Apparently you see it your function to tell the mem-
bers of our union and many other unions who their elected representa-
tives shall be.
Mr. ScHERER. I didn't say that.
Mr. Sherman. That is exactly what you inferred.
You would like to be the judge of who shall be the elected repre-
sentatives of labor unions in this country.
Mr. ScpiERER. I just say that I think every union member has the
right to know who in its membership are members of the Communist
Party and what the correct names and what the background of its
officers are so that the}'^ can exercise a free choice. And then, know-
ing that background, if they still want to elect that individual, they
have the perfect right to do so.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a petition of the
Independent Progressive Party of California, at the end of which
there is an affidavit bearing date the 26th day of January 1948.
(Document placed on the witness table.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine it, please, and state who signed
the affidavit ?
Mr. Sherman. I am sorry I don't follow your question, Mr. Tav-
enner. Would you mind repeating it ?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the petition and state whether
or not you signed the affidavit that appears at the bottom of it ?
Mr. Sherman. I don't propose to examine the affidavit, but I would
like to hear your question again.
Mr. Tavenner. Again ?
Mr. ScHERER. Wait a minute. I move that the witness be directed
to examine the docuinent in order that Mr. Tavenner may propound
the question.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer the document in evidence, and ask that it be
marked "Sherman Exhibit No. 1," for identification.
Mr. Moulder. The exhibit will be so marked and admitted in evi-
dence.
(This exhibit is similar to Kalman Bloch exhibit No. 1, p. 3957, and
will not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the com-
mittee's records.)
Mr. Moulder. Now the exhibit is before you, Mr. Sherman, and
you are directed to examine it for the purpose of qualifying yourself
to answer questions or to decline to answer questions which may be
propounded by counsel.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sherman. I am going to refuse to answer any questions con-
cerning this document. So I, therefore, propose to refuse to examine
the document.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the affidavit at the end of the docu-
ment appears over the name of the affiant, Louis Sherman.
And it states under oath that Louis Sherman was the person who
circulated that document and who procured the signatures on that
document.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4039
Mr. Moulder. I do not believe the witness was asked a question as
to whether or not he did circulate the petition and sign the affidavit
you referred to.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you obtain the signatures appearing on the
document presented to you ?
Mr. Shermax. I again refuse to answer the (luestion on the same
grounds earlier indicated.
Mr. Tavexner. Was it a part of the Commmiist Party plan that
you should circulate that document and obtain others in your union
to follow your bidding in such action ?
Mr. Sherman. It seems to me that Henry Wallace was the founder
of the third party movement in this countiy some years ago, which
resulted in the establishment of this party.
I don't propose to go into it, Mr. Tavenner. I don't think it is a
proper subject for the inquiry of this committee. And I properly will
refuse to answer this question on constitutional grounds.
Mr. Scherer. The unions and everybody else have the right to know
whether any of its officers are using the unions to promote Communist
Party programs within the union. They have that right to that
knowledge.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Then, as I said before, if, having that knowledge,
they want to take certain action, they have a right to do it. And this
committee proposes to show how the Communist Party used the
unions in certain cases to promote objectives of the Communist Party
and not necessarily the fine objectives of the union, and without the
knowledge of the rank and file.
Mr. Sherman. Mr, Tavenner, those remarks of Mr. Scherer are
highly offensive and insulting to the members of the union I represent.
It assumes that they haven't got enough brains to make up their own
minds about any question, whether it be political or economic.
I just want to remind you that any position that this union has ever
taken on any matter, whether it involves wages or politics or economics,
have been taken with the knowledge and the approval of the members
of our union.
Mr. Scherer. Have you told the union at any time that you were
an active member of the Communist Party ?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Sherman. You are assuming something, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. I ask you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Sherman. I have stated on imiumerable earlier occasions that
I will refuse to answer that and any of the similar questions on con-
stitutional grounds. That is an invasion of the privacy and of the
rights of any American, and I don't propose to allow this committee to
do it to me.
Mr. Scherer. When you are not under oath and when you are at
union meetings don't you think the union has the right to know from
you, when you are not under oath, whether or not you are a member
of the Communist Party ?
( The witness confers with his counsel.)
77436— 56— pt. 1(
4040 COMMirNlST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Sherman. If you were a member of the union you would have
a right to get up and propose that. I doubt if the members of our
union would listen to you.
Mr. ScHERER. You still evaded the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Holding the positions that you have held since 1947
in your local union, were you required to sign what is known as the
Taft-Hartley affidavit, affidavit of non-Comnumist union officer^
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Sherman. This again, Mr. Tavenner, is a matter that involves
the internal affairs of our union. Various unions choose to comply or
not to comply, depending upon their own peculiar circumstances, con-
ditions, or their own choosing. Whether our union does it or does not,
whether we signed or did not sign is a matter, I believe, for union mem-
bers to determine. And it is an internal matter of the unon, and not a
subject for inquiry of this committee.
Mr. Scherer. Let's correct that a little bit. That is a law.
Whether you agree with the law or not, I assume that all unions fol-
low the law. And we are very much interested in whether or not an
individual complies with the provisions of the Taft-Hartley law.
It certainly is a proper subject of investigation of this committee
because it deals directly with a union member saying whether or not
he is a member of the Communist Party. And that is what we are
investigating.
Mr. Moulder. You mean officers.
Mr. Sherman. Mr. Scherer, you are inferring that unions that do
not so-called comply are perhaps living outside the law.
May I remind you that there are some great labor organizations in
this country, like the United Mine Workers and International Typo-
graphical Union, who do not choose to abide by the affidavit provisions
of the Taft-Hartley law. But I would say unequivocally that every
labor union in this country abides by the law. And whether or not
it seeks to exercise its rights under the National Labor Relations Act
is a matter primarily of its own choosing. Some do and some don't.
But don't attribute any evil motives to those that may or may not.
Mr. Tavenner. You have taken 10 minutes to avoid answering my
question.
Were you required as an officer to sign a non-Communist affidavit?
Mr. Sherman. I refuse to answer that question on the same con-
stitutional grounds announced earlier.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a non-Communist
union officer's affidavit marked "Sherman Exhibit No. 2," and I ask you
to examine it and state whether or not you signed it.
(Document placed on the witness table.)
Mr. Sherman. I will refuse to answer that question. Therefore, it
is no use or need for me to examine the document.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence, and ask
that it be marked "Sherman Exhibit No. 2."
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked and admitted in
evidence.
(This exhibit is similar to Al Caplan exhibit No. 1, p. 4056, and will
not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the com-
mittee's records. )
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4041
Mr. Moulder. I would suggest that, first, the witness be directed
to examine the document in order that he might have an opportunity
to qualify himself to answer the questions you may ask him about it.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sherman. I will answer no questions about this document, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Do you also decline or refuse to examine it?
Mr. Sherman. Therefore, there is no need for me to examine this
document I refer to.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the date of the sworn statement ?
Mr. Wheeler. The 12th day of January 1956.
Mr. Tavenner. The document reads as follows :
The undersigned, being duly sworn, deposes and says :
"1. I am a responsible officer of the union named below ;
"2. I am not a member of the Communist Party or affiliated with such party ;
"3. I do not believe in and I am not a member of nor do I support any organ-
ization that believes in or teaches the overthrow of the United States Govern-
ment by force or by any illegal or unconstitutional means."
Warehouse, Processing and Distribution Workers Union, Local 26, Interna-
tional Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union.
(Signature) Louis R. Sherman,
Secretary-Treasurer,
9517 Ceylon Avenue, Los Angeles ^5, Calif.
Sworn and subscribed to before me this 12th da.v of January 1956, a notary
public or other person authorized by law to administer oaths and ttike acknowl-
edgements in and for the county of Ix)s Angeles, State of California.
My commission expires November 27, 1959.
Jacob Lehman is the signature.
Were you a member of the Communist Party on the 12th day of
January 1956, the date of this sworn affidavit ?
Mr. Sherman. I refuse to answer that question on the same con-
stitutional grounds announced earlier.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer in evidence a second affidavit of non-Com-
munist union officer marked "Sherman Exhibit No. 3," for identifica-
tion, bearing date of January G, 1955, and I will ask you to examine
it and state whether or not j^ou gave that sworn statement on the date
indicated.
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked and admitted in
evidence.
(Document placed on the witness table.)
Mr. Sherman. I will again refuse to answer that question on the
same constitutional grounds indicated earlier.
Mr. Moulder. Witness, you are directed to examine the document
referred to by counsel, marked "Sherman Exhibit No. 3,"
Mr. Sherman. For the same reason, Mr. Chairman, I will refuse
to examine the document. It is unnecessary since I am not going to
answer the question anyway.
Mr. Tavtenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on the
6th day of January 1955 ?
Mr. Sherman. I refuse to answer that question on the same consti-
tutional grounds announced earlier.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you execute a non-Communist affidavit for the
year 1954?
Mr. Sherman. I will again refuse to answer that question on the
same constitutional grounds.
4042 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time during January of the year 1954?
Mr. Sherman. I again refuse to answer that question on the same':
constitutional grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you execute a non- Communist affidavit under
the Taft-Hartley Act for the year 1953 ?
Mr. Sherman. I again refuse to answer that question on the same
constitutional grounds.
Mr. Tav-enner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time during Januaiy of 1953 ?
Mr. Sherman. The same question ; the same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party during^
any day of January 1952 <
Mr. Sherman. I will decline to answer on the same constitutional
grounds.
Mr. Ta^'enner. For the year 1951 ?
Air. Sherman. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. 1950?
Mr. Sherman. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. 1949?
Mr. Sherman. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. 1948?
Mr. Sherman. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party atf
any time during the year 1947 ?
Mr. Sherman. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mr. Sherman. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Thomas A. Chapman.
Mr. Moulder. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn,,
please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you, God ?
Mr. Chapman. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS A. CHAPMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL.
BEN MAKGOLIS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Chapman. Thomas Chapman.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have a middle initial ?
Mr. Chapman. A.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record..
Mr. INIargolis. Ben Margolis, of Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Chapman ?
Mr. Chapman. November 25, 1913, city of New York.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Ijos Angeles?
Mr. Chapman. I do.
COMMUNIST ACTI\-ITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4043
Mr, Tavenner. How long have you resided in the State of Cali-
fornia ?
Mr. Chapman. Since 1935.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your for-
mal educational training has been?
Mr. Chapman. I graduated from the New York City high school
system, and I had 4 years of college. I would say that my real edu-
cation began during the depression, when I went around looking for
a job, and that my education, at least in the question of democratic
unionism, came when I affiliated with the greatest democratic union
in the world, the International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's
Union (ILWU) whose members decide union policy and who are
responsible to no one in the determination of union policy.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, having volunteered that speech when my ques-
tion was related solely to your formal educational training
Mr. Chapman. The question was of education, wliich I answered
properly, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. You know what my question was. It was confined
to your formal educational training.
Mr. Chapman. And it is well known that education begins in the
■outside world and is not solely confined to the school system.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Moulder. I understand the witness has answered the question.
He has completed his answer.
Mr. Chapman. Yes, my answer is complete. But Mr. Tavenner
lieeps raising it over and over again.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive any part of your educational train-
ing at the People's Educational Center in the city of Los Angeles?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Chapman. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my
constitutional rights.
I believe that a man has the right to study for himself in any way
lie chooses, to read what he chooses, to associate with whom he chooses
to associate, and to develop himself and learn about life and about
what he wishes to know.
I think this right is protected by the first amendment of the Consti-
tution.
Where I go to school is strictlj' my own affair, and this committee
has no right to examine me on this question. It is a matter that is
reserved to the individual.
The sovereign rights of the individual in this country are guaran-
teed under the 9th and 10th amendments to the Constitution of the
United States, which solely reserve to the people such rights as these,
and which prevent Congress from inquiring into such matters because
they are not given any authority to do so.
On the basis of the 9th and 10th amendments alone, I could refuse
to answer this question.
It is also a violation of the first amendment of the Bill of Rights.
On this ground I refuse to answer the question.
It is a violation, furthermore, of the fifth amendment which this
committee forces me, forces me to take — as they would put it — ■
refuge in because they consistently attempt to pervert the meaning of
4044 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
this amendment, the meaning of this amendment being historically to
protect the innocent and not to shield the guilty.
Tlie Supreme Court has said recently, in the decision which has
already been called to the attention of this body, that anybody who
attempts to pervert the fifth amendment, as this committee does, and
to say that it is an admission of guilt, is making a hollow mockery of
the United States Constitution and also of the Supreme Court.
The committee has shown by its action that it so mocks the Consti-
tution and the Supreme Court as well. It is for this reason that the
executive board of our union acted as it did in connection with the
committee, and I will not answer or cooperate with the committee
because I will defend the right of unions to organize, and of members to
believe as they choose, to determine their own union policy against the
assaults of this committee, which is trying to do a job on our local in
Los Angeles.
Mr. Moulder. Very well.
Now the witness is directed to answer the question.
I might say, too, as chairman of the subcommittee, I am probably
very lenient and tolerant with many witnesses who have made such
statements as you have made.
Mr. Chapman. May 1 say, I appreciate this very much.
Mr. MouiJ)ER. To a reasonable degree. But let's not carry it too
far.
And you are directed now to either answer the question or decline
to answer, as you may choose to do.
Mr. Chapman. In the future I can simply refuse on these constitu-
tional grounds that I have already stated. And I will be very happy
to do so.
May I also say that I appreciate very much the opportunity to say
what I already have said.
Since so many people seem to be cut off, I appreciate this opportu-
nity. And I will try to cooperate with the committee and make
my answers brief as possible.
Mr. Moulder. Now you are directed to answer the question pro-
pounded by counsel.
Mr. Chapman. I believe I have. Have I not said I refused to
answer on constitutional grounds ?
Mr. Moulder. You refuse under the provisions of the Constitution?
Mr. Chapman. Yes; under all of these amendments, I refuse to
answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you copies of the April and October 1947
announcement of courses at the People's Educational Center and ask
you whether or not, as shown by those announcements, you taught
during those terms at the People's Educational Center.
(Documents placed on the witness table.)
Mr. Chapman. There is no need for mo to examine these documents
since I shall refuse to answer all questions concerning them.
Mr. Soiierer. I ask you to direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to examine the documents
presented by counsel for the purpose of informing himself so that
he might answer or decline to answer the questions as may be pro-
poimded by counsel.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4045
Mr. Chapman. You have already advised me that the document
refers to the People's Educational Center, and I will answer no
questions concerning the People's Educational Center. So there is no
need for me to examine the document.
Mr. Tavenner, Why ?
Mr. Chapman. What?
Mr. Ta\^nner. Why do you refuse to answer any questions regard-
ing that educational center ?
Mr. Chapman. On all the grounds previously cited.
Mr. Ta\-enner. I desire to offer the two documents in evidence, ask
that they be marked "Thomas A. Chapman Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2,"
respectively, and filed in the committee records.
Mr. Moulder. The two documents referred to by counsel will be so
marked and filed foi* the information of the committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, w-hether or not
you were the authoi- of an article appearing in the November 15, 1944,
issue of the People's World, entitled "Criticizing Critics," which I
hand you.
(Document placed on the witness table.)
Mr. Chapman. There is no need for me to examine this document
because I will not answer any questions concerning these subject mat-
ters of the Daily People's World, which has been — you have already
told me about — under constitutional grounds.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to examine the docu-
ment.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to examine the document.
Mr. Chapman. I will repeat that for the benefit of the committee,
which apparently they didn't hear the first time: I will refuse to
answer any questions concerning this document. So there is no need
for me to examine the document. And I am refusing and basing my
refusal on constitutional grounds, though I must say I can't under-
stand why whether a person Avrote an article for a paper is a subject
for investigation by this committee, whether it is true or not.
Mr. Tavenner. Just be a little patient and we may be able to explain
it. This article shows that 3'ou were the feature editor of the Daily
People's World. Will you tell us over how long a period you were
the feature editor of the Daily People's World?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Chapman. You are making an assumption. Counselor, that I
was in fact the editor of the People's World. I will not go on this
kind of assumption. I am going to refuse to answer all questions of
this kind because they are an invasion of nn^ right of privacy, and on
the constitutional grounds heretofore cited.
Mr. Scherer. Is counsel's assumption incorrect ?
Mr. Chapman. I am not even going to discuss the matter with you
because it invades my right of privacy. I will not answer any ques-
tions concerning such matters. I base myself on my constitutional
rights. I wouldn't answer, either, if you asked me if I wrote an article
for the Warehouse News.
Mr. Taa^nner. You asked me the reason why I asked you the
question.
IMr. Scherer. Just a minute. Read that last answer.
4046 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS .\NGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Moulder. He said lie would not answer if lie wrote an article
for the Warehouse News.
Mr. Chapman. No. The Warehouse News. That is a union publi-
cation.
Mr. ScHERER. That statement certainly indicates the witness is not
invoking his constitutional grounds in good faith. It is obvious.
Mr. Chapman. Ask me the question. I will make my constitutional
grounds clear. That happens to be a union publication. Do you in-
tend to inquire into union publications also, Congressman ? When do
jou intend to stoop that low ? I can understand your trying to assault
and break unions.
I would like you to ask me that question. Please ask me if I ever
wrote anything for the Warehouse News.
Mr. ScHERER. Let the recoi-d show that tlie witness is almost violent
in his actions on the stand.
Mr. Moulder. I want to warn the people in the hearing roonu
Mr. ScHERER. And that he is surly and sarcastic, and that his voice
is exceptionally loud, because I assure you, sir, that I am going to have
this matter referred for contempt.
Mr. Chapman. I am veiy glad. Congressman, to lower my voice. I
will try to modulate it. And I do not wish to
Mr. ScHERER. We have tried to treat you right. You ai'e making
one of the typical speeches, we know, for the benefit of your union
here.
Mr. Chapman. My union is under attack. Congressman. I must
speak in its defense against you or anyone else who assaults it. And
just because at this moment you choose to modulate your voice instead
of using your usual maniacal tone is no reason why I must modulate
mine. I am a worker. I resent an attack on my unioiL I am going
to defend it. You try to bust it if you want, and you won't bust it.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that the witness be escorted from the room by
the deputy marshal.
Mr. Moulder. The request of my colleague Mr. Scherer is granted.
Mr. Margolis. He is willing to leave under his own iiower. There
is no necessity for his being escorted.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that he be escorted.
Deputy Marshal, will you remove him from the hearing locmi. He
is in absolute contempt.
Mr. Margolis. He is ready to leave on his own ])ower.
Mr. Scherer. Out of the room.
Mr. Moulder. I wish to make this announcement : We are ]n-ivileged
to have with us in the hearing room Eabbi Max J. Merritt, who is ex-
director of tlie Los Angeles Chapter of the American Jewisli League
Against Communism.
Shall we stand in recess for 5 minutes?
Mr. Tavenner. May I finish this? It will only take a minute.
I mean if it is all right to just finish with this witness.
I desire to offer into evidence marked for identification as "Thomas
A. Cliapman Exhibit No. ?^," a photostatic copy of a petition of the
Independent Trogressive Party of California, bearing the date the
1.5tli day of February 1048 nt tlie end of wliich tiiere is an afTulavit by
Thomas A. Chapman, in wliich lie states that he solicited the signa-
tures a|)]>earing thereon.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4047
Mr. Moulder. The exhibit will be marked as requested by counsel,
and admitted in evidence.
(This exhibit is simihir to Kalman Bloch exhibit No. 1, p. 3957,
and will not be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the
committee's records.)
Mr. Tavenn£R. I also want to call to the connnittee's attention that
Elizabeth Anderson Wilsoji, who appeared as a witness before this
committee in September of 1951, identified Tom Chapman as a person
known to her to be a member of the Communist Party, and that at that
time he was employed as a reader in a studio.
I also want to call to the committee's attention the testimony of Sol
Shor, bearing date of March 12, 1953, at page 930 of the printed record.
He identified Tom Chapman as a member of the Communist Party.
That is all Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. We will stand in recess for a period of five minutes.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken. Present: Representatives
Moulder and Scherer.)
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Present: Representatives Moulder and Scherer.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order and those persons in
the corridors and those who desire to hear the proceedings will take
their seats as quickly as possible.
I wish to announce, or to request the United States Deputy Marshal
to be diligent in observing the conduct of persons in the committee
hearing room and, as requested by members of the committee, the
United States Marshal is directed to remove any person from the
hearing room who makes audible comment or makes any demonstration
which will interrupt or disturb the proceedings being had by the com-
mittee.
Would you call your next witness, please ?
Mr. Scherer. i)o I understand, Mr. Chairman, that statement and
that order are made to the marshal without further direction from the
committee ?
Mr. Moulder. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Sidney London.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. London. I do so swear.
TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY LONDON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BEN MARGOLIS
Mr. Ta\tenner. Wliat is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. London. May I request that counsel be allowed to participate
or sit down next to me ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes. You are entitled to have counsel if you prefer
counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Your counsel is beside you. Will you state your
name, please ?
Mr. London. My name is Sidney London.
Mr. Taat2nner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Margolis. Ben Margolis, of Los Angeles.
4(]48 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavexner. "^Vlien and wliere were you born, Mr. London ?
Mr. London. I was born on May 7, 1914 ,Youngstown, Ohio.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. London. I reside in Monterey Park, Calif.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in California ?
Mr. London. Since 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has been ?
jMr. London. High school and college.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you receive your college work ?
Mr. London. Brooklyn College, Brooklyn, N. Y.
Mr. Tavenner. How many years did you attend Brooklyn College?
Mr. London. Six years.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive a degree ?
Mr. London. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. In what field ?
Mr. London. A bachelor of arts.
Mr. Tanner. When did you receive your degree ?
Mr. London. I believe it was in the year of 1937.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell the committee, please, what was your employ-
ment prior to your coming to California in 1948?
Mr. London. To the best of my recollection, I was employed in a
hair net manufacturing company and a textile export house, and
served 3 years in the United States Army.
Mr. Taatenner. Where did you have that employment, and in what
years ?
Mr. London. Those years were roughly — and I am not certain of the
dates — between the years of 1936 and 1948.
Mr. Tantinner. What was the period of your service in the Armed
Forces ?
Mr. London. From November of 1942 to December of 1945.
Mr. Moulder. In what branch of the service ?
Mr. London. In the United States Army Air Force.
Mr. Moulder. Where were you assigned to duty ?
Mr. London. I was mainly assigned to duty at an airfield in Cali-
fornia.
Do you want the specific area ?
Mr. Moulder. I want you to have the benefit of stating as fully
as you please all informaticm you have about your services in the
Armed Forces of the United States.
Mr. London. Of course, I went wherever I was assigned to go, as
all members of the Armed Forces. And I was assigned to serve at
Muroc Airfield at Muroc, Calif. And I believe I was in several other
camps, I know I was, throughout the country.
I don't particularly see the need for identifying the various places
that the Army sent me.
Mr. Moulder. That wasn't my point. I w:int you to liave the full
opportunity for liaving a favorable reflection
Mr. London. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. Reflection upon you as an individual in connection
with your services in the United States Armed Forces. And also to
state whether or not your discharge was honorable.
Mr. London. Oh, yes. I received an honorable discharge.
Mr. Tavenner. When you were discharged from the Ai'my, did you
return to the city of New York ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4049
Mr. London. That I did.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed between the time of your
discharge and your coming to California in 1948 ?
Mr. London. I was employed by this hair net manufacturing com-
pany for a period of several months, I don't recall the exact period of
time, and I was also employed after that by this export textile house.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed prior to your induction
into the Armed Forces in 1942!
Mr. London. I was employed by this aforementioned hair net con-
cern.
Mr. Tavenner. How long had you been so employed ?
Mr. London. I had been employed there approximately 6 or 7 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that in the city of New York ?
Mr. London. In the city of New York.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you selected by the State committee of the
Young Communist League of the State of New York to attend a
special convention of the Young Communist League which was called
by its national board in New York City on December 21 and 22, 1940?
Mr. London, I do not recall this specific instance that the counselor
is speaking of, nor would I, if I did recall, dignify that question or
other questions of this nature with an answer that this committee
wants me to give on the basis of attempting to prove something about
the union to which I belong as being infiltrated or dominated or con-
trolled by some sinister forces such as might be represented according
to the inference of this question by myself, and I therefore will re-
fuse to answer this question on the grounds of the 1st, the 9th, the
10th, and the 5th amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you secretary of the educational bureau of
the Young Communist League in 1941 in the city of New York?
Mr. London. I believe that I have stated my position on this, that
any attempt being made to divide or influence the members of my
union so that they can squabble among themselves as to who is or who
is not a Communist, a Republican, a Democrat, and forget that they
are trade unionists, is none of the committee's business, and I will re-
fuse to answer this question as I will all similar questions on the basis
of the 1st, 9th, 10th, and 5th amendments.
Mr. MoiTLDER. In any future questions propounded to you which
you refuse to answer, you might state that you are reiterating the
reasons for declining to answer which you have already given. Is that
agreeable with you, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. Yes.
Mr. London. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Young Communist
League in the city of New York in 1941 ?
Mr. London. Counselor Tavenner, I would like to make one posi-
tion very clear. I am here because I am an active member of local 26
of the International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union
Mr. Ta^t^nner. Mr. Chairman, the answer is not responsive to my
question.
Mr. Moux,der. It certainly isn't. It will help us expedite the pro-
ceedings, if you refuse to answer or decline to answer for the reasons
stated by you. It would help you and help us if you do so.
Mr. Tavenner. What did you tell the committee your employment
had been between 1948 and the present time in California? I know
you testified to that, but I do not recall what you said.
4050 COJVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS AXGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. London. I would like to have the question repeated.
]Mr. Ta\t:nner. What has been j^our employment in California be-
tween 1948 and the present time ?
Mr. London. Between 1948 and the present time, I was employed
for several periods of time, different periods of time, by a shirt manu-
facturing company, by two shirt manufacturing companies. I was
employed in the ladies' garment industry by one manufacturing com-
pany. And I am now employed by the Thrifty Drug Co. in their
warehouse.
Mr. Tavenner. When did your present employment begin ?
Mr. London. My present emplojmient began in 1953.
Mr. Tavenner. Where have you been employed between 1953 and
the present time ?
Mr. London. I have been employed by the Thrifty Drug Co., be-
tween 1953 and the present time.
Mr. Tavenner. Where is that located? Is it in the city of Los
Angeles ?
Mr. London. In the city of Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time, have you lived in the
city of Los Angeles ?
Mr. London. I have, during that period of time, not lived in the
city of Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. Where have you lived ?
Mr. London. I have lived in Culver City and Monterey Park dur-
ing the whole period of time I have been employed by the Thrifty
Drue: Co.
]Mr. Tavenner. You have lived where ?
Mr. London. In Culver City and Monterey Park.
Mr. Tavenner. During what part of that period have you lived in
Culver City and what part at Monterey Park ?
]\Ir. London. I am not sure of the exact accuracy of the time element
here — but I did live in Culver City up to the year 1954, from the
end of 1952 or beginning of 1953, and then moved to Monterey Park.
Mr. TA^^NNER. What was your employment prior to 1953 ?
Mr. London. As I have already stated, I was employed by several
garment manufacturing concerns.
Mr. Taat:nner. I hand you a document marked for identification
as "Sidney London Exhibit No. 1." It is a photostatic copy of a
Communist Party Independent Nominating Petition for the State of
New York for the election of Simon W. Gerson to the position of
councilman for the Borough of Brooklyn. Will you examine it, please^
and state whether or not the name of Sidney London appears on line
3 and whether or not you signed it on that line ?
(Document placed on the witness table.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. London. I am not going to examine this document and I am
not going to answer any questions in regard to this document on the
grounds previously stated.
!Mr. Tavenner. I think he should be directed to answer.
Mr. Moulder. He has claimed the privileges under the previously
stated grounds. He refuses to examine the document and also refuses
to answer questions concerning it.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
thnt it be marked "Sidney London Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Moulder. The document so marked is admitted in evidence.
COlMMUlSriST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4051
Sidney London Exhibit No. 1
COMMUNIST PARTY
INDEPENDENT NOMINATING PETITION
To the Bo«rd of Etectiont in the City of New York:
I, the underglgned, lio hereby state that I am a duly qualified voter of the political unit for which a
Domination for public office Is hereby made, that my place of residence Is truly stated opoosite my signature
hereto and that I Intend to support at the ensuing election, aid I do hereby nominate the following named
person as a candidate for nomination for public office to be voted for at the election to be held on the 2nd
day of November, 1948, and that I select the name COMMUNIST PARTY as the name of the independent
body making the nomination and
FACTORY SMOKESTACK AND SHEAF OF WHEAT
as the emblem of such body.
PUBLIC OFFICE
P1.ACE OF BUBINEaS
SIMON W. GERSON
I do hereby appoint:
DOROTHY CACCmONE, residing at 8750 Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, N. Y.
NORMAN SCHRANK, residing at 1728 63rd Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
BEATRICE SACKS, residing at 1414 W. 5th Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
RICHARD M. JONSON, residing at 99 N. Portland Avenue, BrookljTi, N. Y.
MARGARET KRUMBB3N, residing at 1114 Park Place, Brooklyn, N. Y.
all of whom are voters within such political unit, as a committee to fill vacancies in accordance with the
provision of the election law.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand the day and year placed opposite my signature.
, being duly sworn, says: I am a duly qualified voter of
the State of New York and now'reside in the Borough of Brooklyn, City of New York, in the County of Kings,
in such state at i^ <^ /^jui.^. ^^^^> i» .J^-i.^^X> Brooklyn, N. Y., therein. I was last registered
for the general elecUon in"the'year'l9"*+!^"from"j'^J'y^<^^ N. Y.. in the
Borough of Brooklyn, City of New York, in the County of Kings, in such state. The said residence was then
in the ^7 Election District of the . ip Assembly District, Kings County. I know each of the voters
/
signatures and
each of them subscribed the same in my presence and upon so subscribing declared to me that the foregoing
statement, made and subscribed by him or her, was true.
Sworn to bef^ me, this
(Ofilctal TlUtyff OfRcjT)
KloK* County 0)«rk'fl ffoTX.,'
Commlaclciii Expire*
4052 COIVUVJUNIST activities in the LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Ta\^nner. I think I should read the date of the document which
is August 19, 1948.
Did you live at 827 Lafayette Avenue, Borough of Brooklyn, in
August of 1948?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. London. I am going to refuse to answer this question on the
grounds previously stated, as I can see no reason why it is the busi-
ness of this committee to know exactly where I have lived.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
in the city of Los Angeles at any time since the beginning of your
present employment in 1953 ?
Mr. London. I will refuse to answer this question and I also want
to say that I am invoking the 9th and 10th amendments of the Con-
stitution as well as the 1st and 5th because the 9th and 10th amend-
ments of the Constitution, dealing with delegated powers, as has al-
ready been previously stated by former witnesses, implies and has
been so held that the people are sovereign for those powers that have
not been delegated to elected representatives of Government. And
it is more than an implication that representatives in Congress, or any
other legislative body, are there to serve the people and not to have
the people serve them. I have only seen this committee do one kind
of service in the main, and that is the service of subpenas.
I refuse to answer the question on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time since 1948, up until the time of your present employment?
Mr. London. If somebody has made that assertion — and I don't
particularly want to do this — I would like to refer the committee to a
quotation from Mark 15 : 2-5 of the Bible where :
Pilate asked him, "Art thou the King of the Jews?" And He —
Jesus —
answering said unto him, "Thou sayest it."
And the chief priests accused him of many things : but he answered nothing.
And Pilate asked him again, saying, "Answerest thou nothing?"' behold
Mr. Moulder. AVliat is the question, Mr. Tavenner^
Mr. Tavenner. He has refused to answer that question.
Mr. Moulder. Let's have the next question.
Mr. London. I beg your pardon, sir. I haven't been directed to
answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you want to be directed?
Mr. Scherer. Regular order. Let's go with the next question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. London. I refuse to answer that question on tlie grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are ^'ou now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. London. I refuse to answei' that and all similar questions that
are being put by this connnittee for the purposes of dividing our union
and trying to inject controversial issues into a place of business or a
union where the members have the sole right of deciding for (hem-
selves who is or what is anything.
Mr. Moi^LDER. You have a reasonable time to eitlior answer tlie
((uostion or decline to answer it.
Afr. London. T decline to answer this (luestion on tlie grounds previ-
ously stated.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4053
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Call the next witness, please.
Mr. Tavennek. Mr. Alfred H. Caplan.
Mr. Moulder. Would you kindly hold up your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but tlie trutli, so help you God ?
Mr. Caplan. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALFRED (ABEAHAM) HALE CAPLAN, ACCOMPA-
NIED BY COUNSEL, BEN MARGOLIS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Caplan. My name as it appears on my birth certificate is Abra-
liam, spelled in the same manner as Abraham Lincoln, the second name
is Hale, the last name is Caplan, C-a-p-1-a-n. Several months after I
was born
Mr. Moulder. That will be unnecessary, please. Let's not get into
long discussions. You have answered the question by giving your
name in response to the question.
Mr. Caplan. I have not finished, sir. My name has been changed.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. He says his name lias been changed.
Mr. Caplan. That is what I was about to say.
Se\'eral months after I was born m}' mother and father changed my
name to Alfred Hale Caplan.
Mr. Tavenner. That is quite sufficient.
Mr. Caplan. Presently I am known as Al.
Mr. Ta\^nner. When and where were you born, ]Mr. Caplan?
Mr. Caplan. I was born 1418 North Tallman Avenue, Chicago, 111.,
July 8, 1918.
Mr. Ta\t.nner. It is noted that you are accompanied by the same
counsel who accompanied the preceding witness.
Where do you reside, Mr. Caplan ?
Mr. Capl-\n. I reside in the same congressional district as Congress-
man Doyle, Los ^Vngeles.
Mr. Tavenner. For the record, where do you reside ?
Mr. Caplan. In Los Angeles, in the same district as Congressman
Doyle.
I note that Congressman Doyle has left the hearing.
Mr. TA^T.NNER. How long have you lived in Los Angeles?
Mr. Caplan. I have lived in Los Angeles since 1932, with the ex-
ception of the time I spent in the United States Marine Corps and
working for this union in (^hicago. 111.
Mr. Ta\'enner. How long Avere you in the Armed Forces of the
United States and during what period ?
Mr. Caplan. I was in the United States Marine Corps for some 25
months.
Mr. Taa-enner. Will you give the dates please ?
Mr. Caplan. I don't recall the exact date. I believe it was the
early part of 1944 until March 1, I believe, 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. What has your employment been since 1946?
Mr. Caplan. Since 1946 I have been actively engaged and elected
by the membership of local 26 as vice president and as president of
4054 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS .iNGELES, CALIF., AREA
local 26. I am also international executive board member of the inter-
national union. And as president of local 26 I have been instructed
by my executive board to suggest and ask of this committee, recommend
and demand that they take their hands off our union.
Mr. ScHEKER. I move, Mr. Chairman, that the last part of the
witness' answer which is not responsive to the question be stricken
from the record.
Mr. Moulder. That request will be duly considered by the full
committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you file an affidavit as a non-Communist miion
officer under the provisions of law for the year 1956 ?
Mr. Caplan. In reference to these remarks and in reference to what
the Congressman might be from Illinois or Ohio, as j'ou said
Mr. Tavenner. That is not responsive to my question. Will you
please I'eply to my question ?
Mr. Caplan. Counselor Tavenner, I don't want to sound testy or
ridiculous, I want to modulate my voice. I do have a cold. You
brought me down to this hearing out of a sick bed, as you well know.
Mr. Tavenner. jSTo complaint has been made about your voice.
Please answer the question.
Mr. Caplan. The point I wanted to make is that apparently you
don't understand, or you could not read mv mind as to what I am
about to say.' You cut me off. I believe that you may not agree with
what I say.
Mv, MoTJLDER. A^Hiat is the question pending, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Ta^tenner. ^ly question was whether or not he signed an affi-
davit as a non-Communist union officer for the year 1956, as required
under the provisions of the law.
Mr. Caplan. Congressman Scherer has asked my remarks be
stricken from the record when I said, "Take your hands off our
union."
Those questions relate to union activities.
IMr. INIouLDER. You will be given a reasonable time to answer the
question or decline to answer as you may elect to do.
Mr. Caplan. If I am given a reasonable time to answer the question,
I am trying to avail myself of tliat reasonable time.
Mr. Moui>DER. It calls for a reasonable answer. He asked you, did
you sign such an affidavit ?
Mr. Caplan. I am attempting to tell counselor for the committee.
Mr. Moulder. Either answer tlie question or
Mr. Caplan. I am not a man of few words.
Mr. ISIouLDER. Or decline to answer and give your reason for it,
either one.
Mr. Caplan. It is very obvious, Mr. Chairman, that it is difficult to
answer in language that one who is called upon to answer
IMr. Mour.DER. What I mean is if you signed such an affidavit and
you wish to admit that you did sign such an affidavit, then you will be
grjven an opportunity to explain or expand upon your reasons for
signing or not signing, or denying that you signed it, as you may
elect ^o do.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caplan. I refuse to answer the last question of counsel for the
committee, based upon the following grounds :
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4055
Number one, the first amendment to the Bill of Rights — and I note
you smile when I mentioned the Bill of Rights, Counsel, — insofar as
the right of each American citizen to freedom of speech, freedom of the
press. I relate to Articles IX and X, known as the ninth and tenth
amendments, in which certain rights are kept by the people; and I
literally meant that the right of the union to be secure, its members to
be secure, and I as an individual to be secure, are contained in some
of these amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. To be secure from Communist domination, too, and
control. A union has that right, too, mider that amendment.
Mr. Caplan. Last, Mr. Chairman, — I will at least have one oppor-
tunity of interrupting the Congressman as he has interrupted me —
Article V, known as the fifth amendment insofar as due process,
insofar as being compelled to testify, and all other provisions that I
may not have mentioned in these four particular amendments, based
upon those four amendments I refuse to answer your question.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of an affidavit of
non-Communist union officer, marked for identification as "Al Caplan
Exhibit No. 1." It is the National Labor Relations Board Form No.
1081.
I ask that you examine it please.
(Document placed on the witness table.)
Mr. CapLxVN. Excuse me. I am discussing with my counsel.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caplan. I will not dignify this committee by answering the
question, and obviously I will not dignify the question by looking at
the document. I refuse on the same constitutional grounds that I have
heretofore stated.
Mr. Moulder. The document marked "Caplan Exhibit No. 1" is
offered to the witness, with the direction that he examine the docu-
ment for the purpose of qualifying himself to answer such questions
as may be propounded to him by counsel or by members of the
committee.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
• Mr. Moulder. You are so directed for the reason that it is our duty
to advise and inform you that your refusal to examine the document
might place you in a position of being guilty of contempt, and that
statement isn't made in the nature of a threat. It is just purely for
your advice and information.
Mr. Caplan. That may be your intention, but I want to say, Mr.
Chairman — I might get in difficulty here — 3^ou don't intimidate me so
easy.
Mr. Moulder. I am not trying to intimidate you.
Mr. Call you spell your last name, please, sir ?
Mr. McTernan. M-c-T-e-r-n-a-n.
Mr. Ta\t3nner. It is noted that you are accompanied by coimsel.
Will counsel please identify himself for the record.
Mr. Cooper. Grant B. Cooper.
Mr. Tavenner. Attorney, of Los Angeles ?
Mr. Cooper. That is correct.
4062 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. McTernan?
Mr. McTernan. I was born in White Plains, N. Y., November 25,
1910.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in the city of Los Angeles ?
Mr. McTernan. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident of the State of
California ?
Mr. McTernan. Well, since some time in late 1937 or early 1938. I
am not quite sure.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived in California continuously since that
time?
Mr. McTernan. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your prof ession ?
Mr. McTernan. I am an attorney at law, licensed to practice in the
State of New York and California.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you begin the practice of law in the State
of California ?
Mr. McTernan. You mean when was I admitted to practice in Cal-
ifornia ?
Mr. Tavenner. Or when did you begin ?
Mr. McTernan. There is a slight difference.
' I was admitted to practice in California in the year 1942. I began
working as a lawyer here in 1937 when I was with the United States
Government. And that is considered active and substantial practice
of the law by the State bar.
Mr. Tav-enner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has been ?
Mr. McTernan. I am a graduate of White Plains Public High
School, in the year 1927 ; Amherst College, A-m-h-e-r-s-t, 1931 ; and
Columbia Law School, in 1934. I hold the degrees of A. B. at Amherst,
and LL. B. at Columbia.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was your first employment by the United
States Government ?
Mr. McTernan. My first employment by the United States Govern-
ment was with the United States Shipping Board Merchant Fleet Cor-
poration in October of 1934.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you bring it up to date from that time.
Mr. McTernan. During much of the period I was with the Shipping
Board Bureau I was on loan to the Solicitor's Office of the Department
of Commerce. "Wlien the Merchant Marine Act of 1936 was passed
and the United States Maritime Commission was created I was trans-
ferred, by operation of law, to that body where I was employed as
a lawyer. And some time in 1937 — I think it was May or June — I
transferred to the National Labor Relations Board where I served
until early 1942, at which time I transferred to the Office of Price
Administration where I served until September of 1943.
Do you want my capacites in these various agencies?
Mr. Tavenner. On what date did you leave the NLRB ?
Mr. McTernan. I don't remember the exact date, Mr. Tavenner,
but it was early in the year 1942.
Mr. Tavenner. What employment followed that ?
Mr. McTernan. For the Office of Price Administration, regional
enforcement attorney.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4063
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere were you employed when you were working
for the United States Shipping Board ?
Mr. McTernan. Geographically where was I employed ?
Mr, Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. McTernan. In Washington, D. C.
Mr. Tavenner. When you were employed by the National Labor
Eelations Board where were you stationed '?
Mr. McTernan. I was officially assigned to Washington for a pe-
riod of time, and on travel status much of that time.
Some time in 1938, early 1938, I was made regional attorney in
San Francisco for the 20th region of the NLEB. And I served in
that capacity until I left the NLRB.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you were in the city of Washington for a very
short period of time in 1937 when you first became an employee of
the National Labor Relations Board ?
Mr. McTernan. Following my transfer to the NLRB I think I was
pliysically in Washington 2 days, until I was sent out to Detroit on a
case against the Ford Motor Co. But I was officially stationed in
Washington for many months but on travel status in various parts of
the country.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you spend, after your appointment at the Na-
tional Labor Relations Board, any period of a month or more at one
time in the city of Washington ?
Mr. McTernan. I guess I did. My best recollection is that I did.
I was called back to Washington pretty regularly on official busi-
ness, and they kept me there various periods of time. It is difficult
to recollect precisely when or how long.
Mr. Tavenner. During that ])eriod of time were you aware of the
existence of an organized group of the Communist Party made up of
employees on the legal staff of the National Labor Relations Board
in the city of Washington ?
Mr. McTernan. Tliis question is probably designed to identify me
with the Communist Party or with Communist beliefs, and, for that
reason, I would like to state my ])osition on that point by way of
stating my grounds for not answering the question.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean your grounds for refusal to answer?
Mr. McTernan. That is right.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. McTernan. My grounds for refusing to answer this question,
are these:
Any question designed to elicit my views or my associations is es-
sentially an act of censorship on the part of the Government.
And the Government has no power to engage in that function be-
cause that power was not delegated to it by the people when the Con-
stitution was adopted.
A negation of such delegation is enshrined in the 9th and 10th
amendments of the Constitution of the United States.
Such a question posed by an agency of Government is abridgement
of my freedom to think as I please and to belong to what I please, and,
therefore, contravenes the first amendment of the Constitution of the
United States.
Such censorship, particularly as applied to lawyers who are oath
bound to represent unpopular causes and unpopular clients, is es-
4064 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
sentially an intimidation of abandonment of pursuit of their calling,
an interference with the judicial function, and I decline to answer
on that ground.
And, finally, I decline to answer on the ground that I exercise my
privilege not to be a witness against myself, and, in doing so, I assure
you and the committee that I have no sense of wrongdoing whatsoever.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you make application for position of chief
enforcement attorney at the San Francisco office ?
Mr. McTernan. I think you have the title wrong. I think it was
regional enforcement attorney. The region covered the entire west
coast.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me show you a photostatic copy which has the
very language that I mentioned on it. If the title is wrong and you
have an explanation for it, please explain it.
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. Do you see the title of the office ?
Mr. McTernan. I see the document, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What does it state ?
Mr. McTernan. It starts out :
United States Civil Service Commission, Washington, D. C.
Mr. Cooper, The title.
Mr, Tavenner. I think you know I am speaking of the position
for which you applied.
Mr. McTernan. I am not going to answer any questions and as-
sume in them, Mr. Tavenner, this is my document. If you want tO'
know what this document says on its face, item 1, it says :
Chief enforcement attorney, San Francisco regional office.
Mr. Tavenner. That is what it says.
Will you look at the end of the document and see what it says as
to the name of the person whose application it is ?
Mr. McTernan. I see it.
Mr. Tavenner, What is the name ?
Mr, McTernan, Mr. Tavenner, the document speaks for itself. I
am not going to read the document,
Mr, Tavenner. Is it your application for employment ?
Mr. McTernan. That I refuse to answer on all the grounds I have
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the document and state whose
name appears on the bottom of it ?
Mr. McTernan. I will not read the document for you. I am not
subpenaed here for that purpose.
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask a direction that the witness answer the
question?
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. McTernan. Mr, Chairman, I liave looked at the document, and
I decline to read it because the function of a witness does not include
reading documents at the behest of anybody.
Mr. Moulder, You decline?
Mr. McTernan. What I mean is reading out loud for the record
what is in it. I have looked at it and read it.
Mr. Moulder. You decline to read the document for the reasons
previously stated. Is that correct?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4065
Mr. McTernan. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it your application for employment?
Mr. McTernan. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. What grounds?
Mr. McTernan. Counsel, do you want me to recite them all?
Mr. Tavenner. You mean on the grounds you just meant for refusal
to answer the last question ? Or the constitutional grounds you for-
merly assigned?
Mr. McTernan. My constitutional grounds formerly assigned.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence marked
"McTernan Exhibit No. 1," for identification purposes, and to be
retained in the committee's files.
Mr. Moulder. So ordered.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, this is an application for appoint-
ment to the position of chief enforcement attorney, San Francisco Re-
gional Office. It states that the date of birth is November 25, 1910;
the place of birth. White Plains, N. Y. ; that the individual making
this application holds an A. B. degree at Amherst College, and an
LL. B. from Columljia Law School. It is signed John T. McTernan.
I read an oath at the bottom:
Subscribed and duly sworn to before me according to law by the above-named
applicant, the 16th day of January, 1942.
The signature of the officer is Marion N. Bender.
Now I desire to read question 15 of this application:
Are you a member of any Communist or German Bund organization or any
political party or organization which advocates the overthrow of our constitu-
tional form of government in the United States, or do you have membership in
or any affiliation with any group, association, or organization which advocates,
or lends support to any organizatioai or movement advocating, the overthrow of
our constitutional form of government in the United States?
The answer filled in to that question is "No."
Will you examine the exhibit, again, please, and state whether you
gave the answer "No" to the question I read, question 15?
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. McTernan. Mr. Chairman, this is just a way of backing into
the same question I refused to answer before. And I refuse to answer
on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the statement appearing on this affidavit true
or false on the 16th day of January 1942, with regard to your former
membership in the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. McTernan. The same question ; the same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the
time you executed it on the 16th day of January 1942 ?
Mr. McTernan. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner, Mr. McTernan, a witness appeared before the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities on the 23d day of January 1952, by
the name of David Aaron, A-a-r-o-n.
Are you acquainted with Mr. Aaron ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. McTernan. Since I am acquainted with that transcript, I
will take the same position as to that question as I have the others.
Mr. Scherer. You mean you are refusing to answer the question for
the reasons assigned ?
4066 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. McTernan. That is correct, Cono^ressman.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Mr: Aaron an employee of the National Labor
Relations Board at any time during the period of your connection
with it?
Mr. McTernan. Well, I think I will take the consistent and legal
position, Mr. Tavenner, and refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. During the course of his testimony I asked Mr.
Aaron this question :
After you severed your connection with the Government position and accepted
the invitation to join the party —
meaning the Communist Party —
tell us just what occurred, how you were assigned to a group and any other in-
formation you have.
Mr. Aaron. I wasn't assigned to any group. I just came up to this house, and
there was a considerable group of people there, and I was told that I had already
been accepted and that I was in.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was it that directed you to come to that particular
meeting?
Mr. Aaron. Mr. McTernan.
Mr. Scherer. Is that testimony true or false, Witness ?
Mr. McTernan. Is there a question I am called on to answer?
Mr. Scherer. Yes.
JSIr. McTernan. The change in characters confuse me.
I take the same position on it, and refuse to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I asked this further question of Mr. Aaron :
To be absolutely definite about it, so there will be no misunderstanding, I
would like you to give us the names of all those whom you can remember were
members of this group —
the group that we were speaking of was a Communist Party group —
composed exclusviely of lawyers.
Mr. Aaron's reply :
That is quite an order.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Wood —
who was chairman of the committee —
Do you want him to repeat the names he has already given or those he hasn't
identified?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir ; I think so.
You have already mentioned the name of John McTernan as a member.
Mr. Aaron. Yes.
Were you a member of the group of the Communist Party in the
city of Los Angeles composed exclusively of members of the legal
profession, Mr. McTernan ?
Mr. McTernan. Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I asked this further question of Mr. Aaron :
There is one other question I would like to ask you.
Do you recall the names of tliose three or four who paid the $20 a month?
Can you name any of the group that paid that much ?
Speaking of Communist Party dues.
Mr. Aaron's reply :
Margolis, McTernan, George Altman, and I think that is all.
Did you pay as much as $20 a month in dues to the Communist
Party, Mr. McTernan ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4067
(The witness confers "with his counsel.)
Mr. McTernan. The same answer to that.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Mr. A. Marburg Yerkes ?
Mr. ScHERER. Are you finished reading the testimony of Mr. Aaron?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Witness, I want to ask you whether or not any of
the testimony that was read to you, which was given by Mr. Aaron to
this committee under oath, was false so far as it applied to you.
Mr. McTernan. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Mr. A. Marburg Yerkes,
an attorney ?
Mr. McTernan. Are you referring to an A. Marburg Yerkes who
testified before this committee in 1952?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir, on January 24, 1952.
Mr. McTernan. Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. This question was asked of Mr. Yerkes when he
testified before this committee :
Mr. Yerkes, you have, in the course of your testimony, mentioned a number of
lawyers in Los Angeles who were known to you to be members of the Communist
Party. I want to check your testimony and I want you to state again whether
or not each was known to you to be a member of the Communist Party : Mr. Joha
McTernan.
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. McTernan. He didn't say John McTernan?
Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. He didn't say what ?
Mr. McTernan. I was just trying to be jocular. Excuse me.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Mr. W^illiam G. Israel?
Mr. McTernan. Are you referring to the William G. Israel who is
carried in your transcript as a witness before this committee in 1952 ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I am speaking of the gentleman who testified
before the committee on January 25, 1952, regarding his own former
Communist Party activities.
Mr. McTernan. Excuse me. I didn't mean to interrupt.
The same answer, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Israel testified before the committee about his
membership in the National Lawyers Guild. He stated :
I joined the guild immediately upon being admitted to the bar in California.
Then my question was :
How long was it after you joined the guild before you were invited by Mr.
McTernan to become a member of the party ?
Mr. Israel says :
I can't remember that. It was a very short period, probably 2 or 3 weeks.
Prior to that Mr. Israel had testified that he was admitted to the
bar on January 9, 1947, and opened offices in Los Angeles, and within
2 weeks he was approached by 2 attorneys and asked to rejoin the
Communist Party. He had been a member at another place before
coming here.
I asked him :
Do you recall the names of those two attorneys?
Mr. Israel. I recall one. I cannot recall the other. John McTernan was one.
I cannot recall who the other was.
4068 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Did you solicit the membership of Mr. Israel in the Communist
Party?
Mr. McTernan. The same answer. And I want to add an addi-
tional ground, that this committee is not a grand jury or trial body be-
fore whom citizens can be summoned to answer accusations of other
people. And, therefore, the committee has no competence to ask the
question.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Milton Tyre ?
Mr. McTernan. Are you reading from the same transcript, Mr.
Tavenner ? I just want to get the side.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. McTernan. Same answer.
Is that T-y-r-e ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, T-y-r-e.
Mr. McTernan. Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. In a sworn affidavit which he gave and submitted
to the committee he identified you as a member of the Communist
Party. Do you wish to confirm or deny his statement ?
Mr. McTernan. Same answer on all grounds, including the last one.
Mr. Tavenner. It was the testimony of at least 3 of those 4 lawyers
I have mentioned, that this group of the Communist Party of which
they had been members in the city of Los Angeles had endeavored to
control the National Lawyers Guild chapter in the city of Los Angeles.
Do you have any knowledge of Communist Party efforts to control
that organization ?
Mr. McTernan. Same answer on all the grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether you
were a member of the Communist Party prior to your first employment
with the Government ?
Mr. McTernan. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time since you left Government employment ?
Mr. McTernan. Mr. Tavenner, no matter how many times you vary
the question, the same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. McTernan. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further ({uestions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
On the conclusion of the hearings of this subcommittee of the House
Committee on L^n- American Activities the Chair now desires to sum
up, in brief, a few observations and conclusions
Mr. Scherer. May I suggest that we wait until those who want to
leave have had the opportunity to do so ?
Mr. Moulder. Very well.
As I have staled, on the conclusion of the hearings of the subcom-
mittee of the House Committee on Un-American Activities, the Chair
desires to sum up, in brief, a few observations and conclusions un-
animously agreed upon by the members of the subcommittee, and bear-
ing on testimony received from the witnesses heard this week who have
seen it as their duty to disclose to the subcommittee the facts of their
experiences and activities within the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4069
On the opening day of the hearings it was announced by the Chair
that the subcommittee intended to inquire into several aspects of al-
leged Communist activity in the Los Angeles area, with particular
reference to the part played by the so-called musicians branch of the
Communist Party and the extent, if any, of the efforts put forth by
members of the Communist Party to qualify the Independent Pro-
gressive Party for the 1948 elections. In addition, tlie committee pro-
posed to call, and, in fact, did call other witnesses in the field of labor
and government to explain alleged activities of their own in those areas
of American life.
Efforts by the committee to inquire into these matters were frus-
trated by the refusal of leaders of Local 26, ILWU, to answer any ques-
tions related to their alleged Communist Party membership. The
same was true of witnesses believed to possess considerable informa-
tion on Communist activity in the Federal Government.
The committee expresses its appreciation to the witnesses who co-
operated with the Government by relating frankly and fully their own
associations and activities while members of the Communist Party.
Their valuable contributions should be acknowledged by their friends
and associates as it is by the Congress of the United States.
The fact of the existence of the so-called musicians branch or branch
O of the Communist Party has been clearly established, as has the fact
that members of that branch, together with other members of the
Communist Party, made a determined, concealed, and deceitful effort
to qualify the Independent Progressive Party on the California ballot.
The testimony received this week here in Los Angeles by the sub-
committee bears out and confirms other and abundant testimony taken
by the committee in other cities throughout the United States that the
Progressive Party movement was, in its inception, a creature of the
Communist conspiracy, and that its actions were, in major part, se-
cretly controlled and directed by the Communist Party of the United
States. Future and continuing investigation will disclose to what
extent these findings are true at the present time.
The charge leveled by critics of the House Un-American Activities
Committee that the present hearings were designed and timed to inter-
fere with and contribute confusion to a current labor dispute among
musicians in the Los Angeles area has in no manner been substantiated.
To the contrary, the only implication involving the internal affairs of
any union has been injected into the hearing in statements made by
witnesses invoking the provisions of the Constitution against possible
sel f -incrimin ation .
It might be added that, in spite of the oft-repeated profession by
these witnesses of their deep devotion to the Constitution of the United
States and the Bill of Rights, none saw fit to denounce the Soviet sys-
tem of slave labor which makes mockery of free men.
In the opinion of the subcommittee members, the Communist efforts
to mobilize musicians within the framework of the Communist Party
cannot be separated from the overall drive made by the Communist
Party some years ago to capture control and direction of every union
and guild within the moving-picture industry. The failure of the
Communist Party in this effort can be credited in large part to con-
stant vigilance of thousands of loyal Americans within the industry.
4070 coMiviuisriST activities in the los angeles, calif., area
including the overwhelming majority of southern California,
musicians.
During the course of the hearings the name of the Los Angeles Phil-
harmonic Orchestra was brought into the hearings. The committee
wishes to stress its great admiration for the philharmonic orchestra
and the work that it is doing to further and expand the cultural life
of this community. Under the auspices of the Department of State,
the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra is about to embark for the
Far East on a concert tour, and the best wishes of the subcommittee
members are extended to the orchestra members, its conductor, and the
board of directors.
The weeklong testimony taken by the subcormnittee was highlighted
on Tuesday by the testimony of Nikolai Khokhlov, a former Soviet
intelligence officer, whose delineation of life for any creative artist
under the Soviet system should be read with interest and concern by
every free American, particularly those whose life is the untrammeled
expression of his art. It is the intention of the subcommittee to rec-
ommend to the Congress that the Khokhlov testimony, translated into
German and Kussian, be printed in quantities far in excess of usual
requirements. It is hoped that many thousands of the translated texts
will eventually come into the possession of men and women now held
in the grip of Communist terror, carrying an American message of
understanding and sympathy to those behind the Iron Curtain. If
no other witness had appeared during the weeklong hearings, it is our
opinion that the Khokhlov testimony would have warranted the ex-
penditure involved.
The committee wishes to aclaiowledge, with thanks, the telegraphic
expressions of Cecil Read and Mr. John Te Groen, leaders of the dis-
putant factions in the controversy heretofore referred to; to the many
persons who have communicated with the committee their expressions
of support and encouragement ; to the press, radio, and television rep-
resentatives who have covered the hearings ; to the witnesses who have
deemed it a duty as American citizens to communicate facts in their
possession to the committee; to the staff of the connnittee for their
careful and exacting preparation for the hearings, with particular
reference to the work performed by committee counsel, Mr. Tavenner,.
and committee investigators, Wheeler and Owens.
The committee also wishes to acknowledge its appreciation for the
many services and courtesies accorded the committee by United States
Marshal Robert W. Ware and the deputy LTnited States marshals who
have been in attendance here in the room during the week ; to Chief of
Police William Parker and the Los Angeles Police Department; to
District Attorney Ernest Roll and his office; to Mr. Edmond Stillwell,
manager of Federal properties in Los Angeles, and to his able custodial
and maintenance staff'. Mr. Jack Campbell, superintendent of the
Federal Building, has been most cooperative in every respect and the
committee expresses its appreciation. Sheriff Eugene W. Biscailuz
and his deputies have cooperated in every respect, for which help and
assistance the committee is grateful.
In continuing vigilance lies the safety and the security of 165 million
Americans of divergent races, creeds, colors, and political persuasion.
It is to the concept of a free America that the House of Representatives
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 4071
has pledged the efforts of its Committee on Un-American Activities.
In spite of the plaints of those who would destroy the right of the
Congress to investigate the activities of those whose allegiance is dedi-
cated to other and foreign philosophies, it will be the continuing goal
of this committee to seek out the cancer of alien-directed conspiracies
and to cut it out without infringing upon the sound tissue of America's
free institutions.
Thank you.
The committee will be adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 57 o'clock p. m. Saturday, April 21, 1956, the
committee was adjourned subject to the call of the Chair, there being
present Representatives Moulder and Scherer. )
77436—56 — pt. 1(
INDEX
INDIVIDUALS p^g,.
Aaron, David 4065, 4066, 4067
Abel, Walter 3827
Abt, George 4018
Akmatova, Anna 3772
Albert, Doris (Mrs. Samuel Albert) 3839
Albert, Samuel 3661, 3668, 3839, 3861, 3873, 3921, 3922
Altman, Carla J 3831, 3839, 3983
Altman, George . — 4066
Altman, Mischa 3827,
3830, 3831, 3839, 3873, 3876, 3920-3924, 3927, 3931, 3936, 3983
Barnes, Edward L 3721
Baron, Louis 3691
Bass, Charlotta A 3721
Batchelor, James R 3721
Becker, Kathryn 3827, 3831, 3840
Becker, Leon S 3827, 3923
Bender, Marion N 4065
Bentley, Elizabeth T 4018
Berg, Ann (Mrs. Haakon Berg) 3920
Berg, Haakon 3920, o922
BeriJi 3780, 3783, 3784
Berlknd" Samuel 3718-3726 (testimony) ; 3729
Bimba, Anthony ^^^2
Bloch, Frances •^;r^7-7r~T ^ ,
Bloch, Kalman 3839, 3874, 3930, 3955-3964 (testimony)
Bloch, Mrs. Kalman 38oJ, 38^4
Block Alexander- _ oitA
Boltuch, Morris_V_VJ_"_V_V_V_-"_ 3874, 394:^-3948 (testimony)
Brinton, William M i^p
?roSArthuvt7r\"v::::::::::::::::F7ri
Browder, Earl — - „^q^
Bulganin._ -JH^'l^i
Byron, Hugh
Cacchione, Dorothy --""rr"":" ^^^f
Caplan, Alfred (Abraham) Hale 40o.3-4061 (testimony)
Chapman, Thomas A 4042-4047 (testimony
Christlieb, Doiiald 3839, 3874, 3918-3934 (testimony)
Christlieb, Pearl (Mrs. Donald Christlieb) ^ 3874
Cohen, Elizabeth 3863, 3864, 3865, 3878, 38<9
Colis, Helen (Mrs. James Colis) ^9-9
Colis, James 'J^f^
Collins, Henry 4018
Compinsky, Dorothy (Mrs. Manuel Compinsky) £j«'f
Compinsky, Manuel L 3827, 3873, 3892-3895 (testimony)^
Compinsky, Sarah ^^^7
Cooke, Edmund W ^^T
Cooper, Grant B 3718, 3726, 3728, 4061
Cooper, Harry
3996
Cooper, Lou r-^—.-r—. 3827
il INDEX
Page
Copland, Aaron 3827
Crowe, John 3899, 3900
Dahl, Ingolf 3827
Dahlsteu, Leonard H 3881-3884 (testimony)
Darnell, Carter 3724-3726, 3728-3733 (testimony)
Darnell, Sylvia (Mrs. Carter Darnell; nee Lardner) 3724, 3725,
3726-3727 (testimony)
Daugherty, James 3721
Debs, Euirene V 3823
Decker, Rubin 3669, 3695-3711 (testimony) ; 3858, 3873, 3929
Dennis, Eugene 4058
Dessau, Paul 3874
Deutsch, Adolph 3827
Diamond, Bertram 3997
DiFiore, Joseph 3873, 3899, 3922, 3923, 3928, 3936, 3937-3939 (testimony)
DiFiore, Lina (Mrs. Joseph DiFiore) 3928
Donner, Frank 3996, 3997
Eger, Joseph 3668, 3873, 3929, 3951-3955 (testimony)
Eisler, Hans 3827
Elias, Lewis J 3870-3881 (testimony) ; 3885, 3887
Essenin, Sergei 3772
Feher, Milton 3874, 3897-3899 (testimony) ; .3929
Finkelstein, Sidney 3818
Fordis, Samuel 3663, 3850-3854 (testimony) ; 3857, 3873, 3878, 3880, 3929
Foster, William 3815
Frankson, Roy (also known as Bob Henderson) 3899,
3900, 3977-3979 (testimony)
Freed, Emil 3693
Friedhoffer, Hugo 3827
Fuchs, Herbert 3990, 3991, 3994, 3995, 3997-3999, 4001, 4014, 4016-4019
Gaiter, Jerry 3721
Gerson, Simon W 40.50, 4051
Glasser, Albert 3821-3837 (testimony) ; 3929
Glasser Harold 4018
Glasser, Katherine (Mrs. Albert Glasser) 3837-3841 (testimony) ; 3929
Globe Arthur 391-5-3918 (testimony)
Goldberg, Martha 3831, 3840
Goldberg, Philip 3874, 3948-39ii0 (testimony)
Goldman, Larry (Lawrence) 3874, 3930. 3983
Goldman, Samuel 3930
Goolsby, A. B 3721
Gorki, Maxim 3762, 3763, 3770, 3806, 3811
Gorney, Jay 3923
Gottlieb, Eudice (Mrs. Victor Gottlieb; nee Shapiro) 3827,
3839, 3873, 3896-3897 (testimony) ; 3929
Gottlieb, Victor 3668, 3669, 3827, 3839, 3873, 3887-3891 (testimony) ; 3929
Granz, Norman 3929
Green, Johnny 3827
Greene, Sidney 3670, 3737-3749 (testimony) ; 3873, 3929
Groen, John Te 3731, 3732, 4070
Gruen, Edmund 3936
Gruen, Edward 3930
Hartle, Barbara 3869
Hartz, Paul E 8721
Heist, A 3705
Henderson, Bob. (See Frankson, Roy.)
HoUister, Carroll 3827, 3831, 3840, 3922, 3923, 3936
Hoover, J. Edgar 3732, 3733
Home, Lena 3827
Hovey, Serge 3827
Hovey, Taniara 3873, 3923
Howard, Maurice W 3721
Hsuu, Lu 3811
Hynds, Robert Henry 3721
INDEX iii
Page
Idriss, Ramez 3929, 3934-3937 (testimony)
Inber, Vera 3772
Israel, William G 4067, 4068
Jackson, Calvin 3827
Jerome, V. J 3818
Jouson, Ricliard M 4051
Jordon (Frank M.) 3721
Kahn, Elinor 3721
Kaplan, Sol 3827, 3831, 3840
Kast, George 3669,3873,3984-3987 (testimony)
Katz, Julia (Mrs. Sidney Katz) 4015
Katz, Sidney 4015
Kenny, Robert 3877, 3900, 3974, 3977
Kestenbaiim, Milton 3669, 3733-3737 (testimony) ; 3746, 3874, 3929
Khacbaturian 3775
Khokblov, Nikolai 3756-3804 (testimony) ; 3931, 3932, 4070
Kbrushchev, Nikita 3783-3792,3795, 3814
Kievman, Louis 3874
Kimple, William Ward 4026-4032 (testimony) ; 4033, 4034
Kramer, Charles 4018
Krug, Jacob H 3996
Krumbein, Margaret 4051
Kube, Wilhelm 3798
Kubik, Gail 3827
Kurasch, Martin 3996, 3999
Kvitko, Lev 3777
Lange, Arthur 3827
Lardner, Sylvia. {See Darnell, Sylvia.)
Laurence, Gilbert 3721
LaVallee, Lawrence Raymond 4000, 4001
Lawson, John Howard 3828, 3829, 3838
Lehman, Jacob 4041, 4056
Lenin 3760, 3789, 3790, 3811
Lessner, Herbert 3669, 3831, 3839, 3929, 3932, 3979-3984 (testimony)
Lessner, Mrs. Herbert 3839
Light, Louise. (See Silver, Louise Light.)
London, Sidney 4047-4053 (testimony)
Lustgarten, Edgar 3871, 3872, 3929, 3939-3942 (testimony)
Lyons, Eugene ^ 3787
Macbeth, Hugh E. Jr 3721
MacMurray, Vera 3721
Maddox, Edward C 3881
Mager, Lincoln 3721
Mager, Phyllis 3721
Maiakovsky, Vladimir 3762, 3772, 3806
Malenkov, Georgi 3778, 3780, 3783, 3784, 3786, 3792
Maltz, Albert 3817
Mandel, Irma 4051
Manes, Hugh R 3984
Marcus, Lydia 3874, 3929, 3983
Margolis, Ben 3854,
3862, 3869, 3885, 3887, 3979, 4006, 4021, 4033, 4042, 4047, 4053, 4066
Marshall, Daniel G 3676, 3897, 3942
Matchett, Gerald J 4000
Matison, Matthew I 3721
McMillen, L. H 3721
McTernan, John T 4061-4068 (testimony)
Mikheals 3777
Mikoyan, Anastas 3790
Milhaud, Darius 3827
Monjar, Elsie M 4034
Moore, Phil 3827
Morozov, Pavlik 3762
Jy INDEX
Pag«
Morton, Lawrence 3827, 3924
Mosk, Edward 3722
Muradeli 3775
Musick, Jean 3873, 3874, 3929, 3967-3974 (testimony)
Musick, Thelma (Mrs. Jean Musick) 3929, 3982
Nelson, Eleanor 4014, 4015
Nelson, Thomas Walfrid 3901-3914 (testimony)
Newman, Manuel 3974-3977 (testimony)
Offner, Herb 3669, 3831, 3839, 3841-3849 (testimony) ; 3874, 3929
Okolovich, Georgi 3750
Pass, Joe 3663,3711-3718 (testimony) ; 3873
Pepper, George 3920, 3922, 3929
Pepper, Jack 3873, 3929, 3964-39G7 (testimony)
Pepper, Jov (Mrs. George Pepper) 3920
Perlin, Paul 3873
Perlo, Victor 3997, 3998, 4018
Pestana, Frank 3711, 3841, 3850
Plumb, Arlyue 4001
Pogodin, Nikolai 3788
Porter, John W 3990-4005 (testimony)
Poska, Judith 3930
Poulson, Harper W 3721
Powell, Paul (Los Angeles) 3669, 3749-3753 (testimony) ; 3874
Powell, Paul (Oregon) 3669, 3670
Prokofiev 3775, 3824
Rachmaninofif, Sergi .3825, 3932
Raksin, David 3827, 3923
Randies, Anthony V 3990
Rapport, Edith (Mrs. George Rapport; nee Rubin; also known as Irene
Stark) 3675, 3676-3695 (testimony) 3858
Rapport, George 3678, 3679, 3691
Read, Cecil F 3731, 3732, 4070
Reeves, Nancy 3721
Rein, David 3995
Reno, Philip 3999, 4000, 4003, 4010, 4015
Rhine, Hepry 4018
Rhine. Jessica. (See Wildman, Jessica.)
Riemer, Mortimer 3995
Robinson, Earl ^1 3827, 3923, 3983
Robison, Joseph 3996
Ronka, Wayne 3669, 3873, 3930
Rosen, Edmond 3721
Rosenberg, Allan__ 3995
Rosenberg, Rose E 3901, 3955
Rosser, Louis 4024
Rosza, Miklos 3827
Roth, Esther (Mrs. Henry Roth) 3664,
3665, 3675, 3831, 3839, 3859, 3873, 3930
Roth, Henry 3661,
3668, 38.30, 3831, 3839, 3854-3801 (testimony) ; 3857, 3873, 3877,
3878, 3880, 3885-3886 (testimony) ; 3930, 3936.
Rubin, Edith. (See Rapport, Edith.)
Rubin, Max 3677, 3689
Rykoff, Richard 3948, 3964, 3967
Sacks, Beatrice 4051
Saidenberg, Ted 3i)30
Sandell, Beatrice (Mrs. George SandeU) 3873
Sandell, George 3662, 3873, 3923, 3930
Sandler, Woodrow 3996
Scheunemann, Edward 3997, 3999
Schneiderman, Louis R. (See Sherman, Louis R.)
INDEX ▼
Page
Schneiderman, WiUiam 3680, 3683, 3684, 4024, 4027, 4031
Schrank, Norman 4051
Selic, Leonard M 3874. 3923, 3983
Shade, Irma M 3721
Shandler, Esther 3915
Shapiro, Eudice. (See Gottlieb, Eudice.)
Sheklow, Seymour 3670, 3861, 3873, 3930
Sheleiiin 3787
Sherman, Louis (also known as Louis R. Schneiderman) 4021— i026
(testimony) ; 4027-4032, 4033-4042 (testimony) ; 4059
Sholokhov, Mikhail 3769
Shor, Sol 4047
Short, Anita 3662, 3S31, 3839, 3873, 3932
Shnstakovitch, Dimitri 3765, 3766, 3771, 3775, 3819, 3824
Siegal, Sam 3930
Silver, Louis Light (Mrs. Max Silver; also known as Louise Light) 3822,
3828, 3835, 3837
Silver, Max 3822, 3823, 3827, 3828, 3835, 3837, 4024
Silverman, Abraham George 4017
Silverman, Benjamin 3721
Simonov, Constantin 3772
Slade, Ruth 3721, 3722
Sorrell, Herbert 3873
Spector, Frank 3663, 3666
Spencer, Dwight 4001
Stalin 3760, 3763, 3765, 3774, 3778, 3780, 3783, 3785, 3786, 3788-3890
Stark, Irene. (See Rapport, Edith.)
Stein, Arthur 3998, 4015
Steinberg, Joe 3721
Stern, Bernard 4015, 4016
Stern, Janet Buck Gaines (formerly known as Janet Gaines; nee Buck;
Mrs. Bernard Stern) 4016
Still, William Grant 3827
Strack, Celeste 3689, 3690, 3691, 3693
Strang, Gerald 3827
Stravinsky, Igor 3931
Sugar, Elizabeth 3874, 3983
Sweet, Mr 38.39
Sweet, Blanche 3839
Tannenbaum, Helen 3840
Tansman, Alexander 3827
Tenney, Jack 3935
Teverniti, Helen 3869-3870 (testimony)
Toch, Ernest 3827
Toriano, Victorio 3857, 38.58
Towbin, Cyril 3662, 3831,
3840, 3862-3868 (testimony) ; 3874, 3878, 3879, 3880, 3886, 3887 (testimony)
Tschipachov 3782
Tse-tung, Mao 3807, 3808
Tyre, Milton 4068
Utiosov, Leonid 3776
Vaughn, Clifford 3827
Vogel, Mortimer 3695, 37.37
Wacbsman, Robert 3827, 3924
Waddilove, William Don 3660-3675 (testimony) ; 3707, 3735, 3744, 38.58
Walden, Alexander 3874, 3930, 3980
Wallace, Spike 3935
Waller, Fats 3827
Weyand, Ruth 3995
White, Harry Dexter 4018
Wildman, Jessica (formerly Jessica Rhine) 4006-4020 (testimony)
Wilson, Elizabeth Anderson 4047
Wintner, Lee . . *^^^
Yi INDEX
Page
Witt, Mervin H 3721
Witt, Nathan 3991, 3992, 3993, 3995
Yasenski, Bruno 3777
Yerkes, A. Marburg 4067
Zhdanov, Andrei A 3819, 3820
Organizations
All Union Soviet Congress of Writers and Poets (1954 Moscovr). 3785, 3804, 3805
American Bar Association 4003, 4004
American University 4019
Chekha. {See Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Government of.)
Citizens Committee To Preserve American Freedoms 3705, 3731, 4005
Communist Party, East Germany, Central Committee 3779
Communist Party, U. S. A. :
Colorado, Denver : Cell within National War Labor Board 3991, 4001
District of Columbia :
Cell within National Labor Relations Board__ 3991, 3994, 3995, 3998, 4014
Cell within Wheeler Committee (Subcommittee to Investigate
Railroads, Holding Companies, and Related Matters of the Com-
mittee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce) 4014
Perlo, Victor Group 4018
Hollywood: Steinmetz Club (Musicians Branch) {see also Los An-
geles, Musicians Group and Northwest Section, Branch O) 3661-3663,
3666, 3670-3672, 3674, 3675
Los Angeles City :
Industrial Section, Teamsters Unit 4028, 4031, 4032
Musicians Group {see also Northwest Section, Branch O and
HoUywood, Steinmetz Club) 3822,
3830, 3831, 3839, 3840, 3863, 3872, 3873, 3935, 3936
Northwest Section 3925
Branch O (Musicians Branch) {see also Musicians Group
and Hollywood, Steinmetz Club)_ 3919-3922,3924-3927,3932,4069
University of Southern California, John Reed Club 3916, 3917
Los Angeles County, Southern Division, Heywood Section 3720
Communist Party, Soviet Union 3779, 3794, 3801. 3804
Central Committee 3775, 3805
20th Party Congress 3787-3791
Hale Company 3726
Hollywood Canteen Committee 3935
lATSE. (See Stage Employees and Motion Picture Machine Operators of
the United States and Canada, International Alliance of Theatrical. )
Independent Progressive Party 3663,
3666, 3668, 3673, 3674, 3707, 4035, 4069
Los Angeles County : Central Committee 3968, 3969, 3972
Ven-Mar Club 3724
West Valley Section 3742, 3743
Wilshire Club 3736
Jewish Theater (Moscow) 3777
Labor Union of Artists 37G6
Longshoremen and Warehousemen's Union, International 4054
Local 26 4021, 4022, 4053, 4054, 4056, 4069
Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 4060
Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra 4070
Moscow University 3777
Musicians, American Federation of : Local 47 3732, 3922
Musicians Congress 3922-3928
Musicians Congress Committee 3823, 382.-5-3827, 3831, 3S32, 3840
National Committee to Defeat the Mundt Bill 4019, 4020
National Lawyers' Guild 4005, 4019
Los Angeles Chapter 4068
Pacific Northwest Labor School 3869
People's Educational Center 4043, 4044
Progressive Party : Indiana 4012, 4020
INDEX vU
Page
Public Workers of America, United (CIO) 3719
Soviet Intelligence. (See Union of Soviet Socialist Republic, Military
Intelligence.)
Stage Employees and Motion Picture Machine Operators of the United
States and'Canada, International Alliance of Theatrical 3872
Studio Unions, Conference of 3872, 3873
Union Activities Committee 3871, 3873
Union of Soviet Composers. {See Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,
Government of.)
Union of Soviet Painters. (See Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,
Government of. )
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Government of:
Army : Military Intelligence 3756, 3777, 3779, 3797
Chekha 3760
Department of Labor Reserves 3782
Secret Police 3783
Union of Soviet Composers 3765, 3766, 3768
Union of Soviet Painters 3766, 3767
Union of Soviet Writers 3762, 3766, 3807
Union of Soviet Writers, (see Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Govern-
ment of.)
United States Government :
Civil Works Administration 4007
Commerce, Department of 4062
Maritime Commission 4062
National Labor Relations Board 3991,
3992, 3995, 3999, 4014, 4019, 4062, 4063
National Recovery Administration 4007
National War Labor Board : Colorado, Denver Regional OfDce 3907-
4001, 4010, 4019
Office of Price Administration 3998, 4062
Railroad Retirement Board 4007, 4017, 4020
Senate : Wheeler Committee ( Subcommittee to Investigate Railroads,
Holding Companies, and Related Matters of the Committee on In-
terstate and Foreign Commerce) 4014
Shipping Board Merchant Fleet Corporation 4062, 4063
Works Progress Administration 4007, 4017
University of Southern California (Los Angeles) 3825
Writers Congress. {See All Union Soviet Congress of Writers and Poets.)
Yenan Conference (May 2-23, 1942) 3808
Young Communist League 4024
New York City 4049
Publications
Art and Society (book) 3818
Daily People's World (newspaper) 4045
Decision of the Central Committee of the Communist Party in the Case
of Beria, The (booklet) 3783
Dialectical and Historical Materialism (book) 3921
Fox Hole (song) 3772, 3776
Grasp the Weapon of Culture (book) 3818
Great Friendship (opera) 3775
History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union 3921
How Music Expresses Ideas (book) 3818
Our Secret Allies— The People of Russia (book) 3787
Political Action (pamphlet) 3921
Political Affairs (magazine) 3875
Problems of Art and Literature (book) 3808
Tilled Virgin Soil (book) 3769, 3770
We Three Went Out to the Undeveloped Lands (play) 3788
o
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