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GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF, AREA— PART 11
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMEEICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPEESENTATIYES
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
DECEMBER 16, 1953, JUNE 6, AND JULY 5, 1956
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INCLUDING INDEX)
(Released by committee and ordered to be printed)
UNITED STATES
GOVERNJMENT PRINTING OFFICE
77436 WASHINGTON : 1956
HARVARD Cu;j.EGh LibRARV:
DEPOoiftD BY THE
UNITED STATF.c; r;n\/CD.M»,r».T
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois
CLYDE DOYLE, California BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York
JAMES B. FRAZIER, Je., Tennessee DONALD L. JACKSON, California
EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio
RiCHABD Aebns, Director
U
CONTENTS
EXECUTIVE HEABINGS
Fag«
December 16, 1953 : Testimony of —
Jerry Fielding 5769
June 6, 1956 : Testimony of —
Judith Poska 5775
Virginia Viertel 5789
Joseph- Ayeroff 5805
July 5, 1956 : Testimony of —
John Hubley 5809
Index I
* Ordered released by the committee.
nx
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress (1946), chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :
Beit enacted J)y the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
• • • • • • • :•
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American Activities.
(2) Tlie Committee on Un-American Activities, as a wh.ole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, character,
and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (ii) the
diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda
that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the
principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and (iii)
all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary
remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investiga-
tion, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times and
places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has recessed,
or has adjourned, to hold hearings, to require the attendance of such witnesses
and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to take such testi-
mony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the signature of the
chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any member designated by
any such chairman, and may be served by any person designated by any such
chairman or member.
RULiJiJS ADOPTED BY THE 84TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955
*******
Rule X
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress ;
*******
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
*******
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES •
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American Activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, charac-
ter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (2)
the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda
that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the
principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and (3)
all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary
remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investiga-
tion, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times and
places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has recessed,
or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of such wit-
nesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to take such
testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the signature of
the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any member designated
by any such chairman, and may be served by any person designated by any such
chairman or member.
VI
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— Part 11
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 16, 1953
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
executive session ^
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to call, at 10 a. m., in room G-41, Federal Building, Los
Angeles, Calif., Hon. Donald L. Jackson (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Donald L. Jackson
and Clyde Doyle, both of California.
Staff member present: William A. Wlieeler, investigator.
Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order.
Will you raise your right hand Mr. Fielding?
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give to this sub-
committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Fielding. I do.
Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please.
Let the record show that for the purposes of this hearing this
morning, and under the authority of Public Law 601, the chairman
of the committee, Mr. Velde, of Illinois, has appointed a subcom-
mittee of two consisting of Mr. Doyle and Mr. Jackson, as chair-
man. Also, in pursuance of the provisions of Public Law 601 the
committee has caused to be subpenaed the witness who is here this
morning for the purpose of determining what, if any, information
the witness may have in his possession which may be of help to the
committee in proposing to the Congress such remedial legislation as
may be considered desirable.
Proceed, Mr. Wheeler.
TESTIMONY OF JERRY FIELDING, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL
HELD & BROOKS
Mr. Wheeler. Will the witness state his full name, please?
Mr. Fielding. My name is Jerry Fielding.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Fielding. Yes, sir ; I am.
Mr. Wheeler. Would counsel please identify themselves for the
record ?
1 Ordered released by the committee September 4, 1956.
5769
5770 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Held. If the committee please, this witness is represented by
Held & Brooks, of Beverly Hills, Arthur A. Brooks, Jr., and Ben-
jamin Held.
Mr. Wheeler. The witness is appearing here this morning in re-
sponse to a subpena ?
Mr. Fielding. Yes, sir ; I am.
Mr. Wheeler. Where do you presently reside, Mr. Fielding?
Mr. Fielding. I reside in Los Angeles.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you give us a brief resume of your educational
background ?
Mr. Fielding. I was educated in the public schools and high schools
of Pittsburgh, Pa. I did not attend the university.
Mr. Whp:eler. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Fielding. I was born in 1922 in Pittsburgh, Pa.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you mind giving us the month ?
Mr. Fielding. June.
Mr. Wheeler. And the day ?
Mr. Fielding. I7th.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you give us a resume of your employment
background since leaving school ?
Mr. Fielding. Well, I have been employed as an arranger, composer,
and conductor in the dance-band field and in the field of radio and
television.
Mr. Wheeler. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Fielding. I am a composer, arranger, and conductor.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you presently employed ?
Mr. Fielding. Yes, sir ; I am.
Mr. Wheeler. And by whom ?
Mr. Fielding. I am presently employed by the National Broadcast-
ing Co.
Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Fielding, are you acquainted with a person by
the name of Judy Raymond ?
Mr. Fielding. Well, sir, I respectfully decline to answer that ques-
tion, and I base my declination on the grounds of the fifth amendment
of the Constitution.
Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Chairman, Judith Raymond testified before the
committee in executive session on September 11, 1953. In the course
of her testimony she testified to the effect that she joined the Com-
munist Party in the late spring of 1945 and severed her relationship
with the party in the early part of 1949. I refer to page 26 of her
testimony.
In the course of her testimony she related to the committee the group
of the Communist Party to which she was assigned, and in identifying
the individuals who were members of this group :
Mr. Wheelek. Do you recall the names of the other members of this group?
Miss Raymond. I have some of them.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you relate the ones you do recall, and also identify
them as to their occupation or any other pertinent information that you may
have concerning them?
Miss Raymond. Muni Diamond ; Bill Wolff, a radio writer ; Jack and Mary
Robinson, radio writers ; Gene Stone, a radio writer and partner of Jack Robin-
son ; Angela Clarke, actress ; Reuben Ship, radio writer ; Jerry and Ann Fielding —
Jerry is a musician and composer for radio.
COIVIMTJNIST ACTIVITIES IX LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5771
■\Voiild vou like to comment on this testimony, Mr. Fielding?
Mr. Fielding. Well, sir, I would like to state that I am not a mem-
ber of the Connnunist Party or any other affiliated or unaffiliated politi-
cal oriranization.
With regard to Miss— to the witness' testimony, I respectfully
decline any further comment on the basis of the fifth amendment.
]\Ir. Wheeler. Were you a member of the Communist Party in 1952 ?
]Mr. FiELDixG. I respectfully decline on the same grounds.
Mr. AVheeler. Do I understand you state you are not a member of
the Communist Party today; is that correct?
Mr. FiELDixG. I stated that I am not a member of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Wheeler. Were you a member of the Communist Party on De-
cember lo, 1953 ? That was yesterday.
Mr. Fielding. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
^Ir. Wheeler. Were you a member of a radio grou]3 of the Com-
munist Party, as described by Judith Raymond ?
Mr. Fielding. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you acquainted with Muni Diamond ?
Mr. Fielding. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
^h\ Wheeler. Mr. Fielding, do you know William Alland ?
]Mr. Fielding. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the same
grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. That is the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Fielding. The fifth amendment.
Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Chairman, Mr. William Alland appeared before
the committee in executive session on November 23, 1953, and admitted
prior Communist Party membership in the Hollywood area, testifying
that he was a member of the radio branch of the Communist Party.
And referring to page 54, Mr. Alland testified in response to Mr.
Tavenner's questions :
:\Ir. Tavenneb. I think it would be well at this point to tell the committee who
were members of this radio group, and in doing so describe their position and
activity in the party as well as you can ; and also which of them made the effort
to have the meeting set at a time convenient to you and made an effort to bring
you back into the Communist Party.
Mr. Alland. Well, the radio branch consisted of Pauline Hopkins, Sam Moore,
Reuben Ship. Mike Davidson, Virginia Mullen, Stanley Waxman, Jerry Fielding,
Gene Stone, .Jack and Mary Robinson.
Would you like to comment on the testimony of Mr. Alland ?
Mr. Fielding. I decline to comment on the testimony of Mr. Alland
on the grounds of the fifth amendment. However, I will state again
that I am not a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Wheeler. My. Chairman, I see no reason to pursue this further.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. May I ask, Mr. \Vlieeler, to what year were you refer-
ring when Mr. Fielding was a member in that group?
Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Alland testified that he left the party in January
or February 1949, and that was the last group to which he was
assigned. So it would be in the year 1948.
Mr. DoTLE. I will state this, Mr. Fielding, in asking you these ques-
tions: I noticed you pledged your constitutional privilege in not
77436 — 56 — pt. 11 2
5772 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF,, AREA
naming anyone, whether or not you knew then, and I can understand
that.
But, naturally, when you state you are not now a member of the
Communist Party, in view of the sworn testimony that we have that
you were several years ago a member of the Communist Party, I will
state frankly I don't intend to ask you as to who was a member of the
Communist Party with you in 1948 and 1949 or 1947, or when you
were, if you were.
I think, to be fair with you, the form of your answer makes me
infer that there was a time when you were a member of the Communist
Party. Now, this committee is in search, also, of any recommendation
that it might receive from any American citizen as to their thinking
in terms of legislation dealing with the subversives. You understand
my statement ? We are looking for recommendations from patriotic
citizens, thinking citizens, to help us understand their views regarding
the field of legislation dealing with subversives.
Now, whether or not you ever came in touch with any subversive
activities any place, either in the group identified or any other group,
have you any suggestion to make to us, Mr. Fielding, in that field?
In other words, this is a subcommittee of Congress. Have you any
suggestion to make to us ? I have never met you in my life, I am sure,
and never talked with you. I don't know what your answer may be.
But I am just asking you in good faith, have you any suggestion for us,
young man ? You have an important employment ; have you any sug-
gestion to make to us as a congressional committee ?
Mr. Fielding. May I say. Congressman, that I have always been
and do consider myself a good citizen of this country and a law-abiding
citizen. My profession is the music business. I have no recommenda-
tions to offer this committee as to legislation on the matters which you
mentioned.
The Congressman stated that there was an inference in his question,
and I believe there is. And for that reason I have to decline further
comment on this question on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. I know Mr. Jackson would join me in making one
further comment to you as a young man. We hope the time will come
before too long when, without your feeling any of your conscientious
objections, you will come to the point where you, as a young American,
will voluntarily say to some constituted authority, whether it is this
committee or not, "I want to help you understand the problem of sub-
versive activity in my country to the extent that I am able."
One further comment, Mr. Fielding: I feel rather strongly that
some of you young men and women who — again I will infer because
of the form of your answer, I will infer you were at one time a mem-
ber of the Communist Party, whether yesterday you withdrew or 2
years ago you withdrew — ^but there was a time, I infer, when you were
a member of the Communist Party.
Now, if that is true, and we have sworn testimony by plenty of
witnesses that it is true, I want to urge you to get to the point where,
as a patriotic American citizen, you can conscientiously say to the
constituted law, "I may not be in a position to give you names of other
men and women who were in the Communist Party with me, but I
am now in a position to tell you what I know about that whole
problem."
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5773
Again, I am not obviating the possibility that you will get to the
point where you will feel that the safety of your Nation, against the
Communist conspiracy, will call upon you to help your Government
even by relating names of former associates in the Communist Party
if and when you were in it; and I hope that time will come.
I am not suggesting that you violate your conscientious scruples.
But I have come to the point in my experience where I think there
cannot be too many conscientious scruples when we face up to the
fact of our own internal security as against the well-known subversive
Communist conspiracy to use force and violence. I am not inferring
that you advocated that, young fellow.
It is fair for me to say that you — I am not inferring that you are
advocating that philosophy, but I am saying to you that some top
men and women in America, at the time you were a member of
the Communist Party, if you were, at that time did advocate, and
still advocate, force and violence in connection with their contem-
plated revolution.
I am not taking advantage of you to preach to you; believe me.
But I do hope — and I am not criticizing your counsel in whatever
way he advised you to answer, either — but I am saying that I hope
you will get to the point where you can put the first thing first, which
I believe is the internal security of your own Nation.
That is all, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Fielding, were you a member of the Communist
Party when you entered the hearing room this morning ?
Mr. Fielding. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the fifth
amendment. However, sir, I will state again — I will state that I am
not a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Jackson. Will you be a member of the Communist Party when
you leave this conference room ?
Mr. Fielding. I have no intention of joining the Communist Party,
Mr. Congressman.
Mr. Jackson. Why have you no intention of joining the Commu-
nist Party ?
Mr. Fielding. As I stated before to Congressman Doyle, sir, I have
been a very busy musician and I intend to continue to be one ; and I
do not contemplate any organized political activity.
Mr. Jackson. Did you in the past contemplate such organized polit-
ical activity?
Mr. Fielding. Well, sir, I decline to answer that on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Jackson. Any reason why the witness should not be excused ?
Mr. Wheeler. No.
Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused and released from the subpena.
INVESTIGATION OF C03OIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— Part 11
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 6, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
executive session *
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, piirsnant to call, at 10 : 05 a. m., in room 484 of the Statler Hotel,
Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Doyle and Jackson.
Staif member present: William A. Wheeler, investigator.
Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will come to order.
Let the record show that, for the purpose of this hearing and under
authority of Public Law 601, Francis E. Walter, chairman of the full
cominittee, has designated Mr. Morgan M. Moulder, of Missouri ; Mr.
Donald L. Jackson, of California ; and Mr. Clyde Doyle, of California,
presiding, as a subcommittee of three. Mr. Jackson and myself, Mr.
Dovle, are present. The hearing will proceed.
Mr. Wheeler. The first witness is Miss Judith Poska.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give to this
subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
trutli, so help you God?
Miss PosKA. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JUDITH POSKA
Mr. Wheeler. Will you state your name, please ?
Miss Poska. Judith Poska.
Mr. Wheeler. Where were you born, Miss Poska ?
Miss PosKA. I was born in Montana- — Utica.
Mr. Jacksox. May I, Mr. Chairman, ask a question at this point ?
I notice the witness is not accompanied by counsel. It is the prac-
tice of tlie committee to allow witnesses to be accompanied by counsel
if the witness so desires, and I should like to have it appear in the
record that you have been informed of this fact and also to inquire
whether or not you desire counsel.
Miss Poska. Well, I didn't because I can only tell the truth.
Mr. Jackson. Very well ; but I felt it should appear in the record
that you have the privilege of counsel if you so desire.
1 Ordered released by the committee August 7, 1956.
5775
5776 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. I think that is well, Mr. Jackson.
Are you perfectly willing to go ahead and testify ?
Miss PosKA. Oh, certainly.
Mr. Wheeler. You are appearing as a voluntary witness; is that
correct ?
Miss PosKA. I am ; that is right.
Mr. Wheeler. What is your educational background ?
Miss PosKA, I graduated from public school in Seattle.
And I went into the Curtis Institute of Music when I was 12,
and I had private tutors there. I studied French and English and
things that go along with when you are young and you are taken
out of public school; when you concentrate on a profession or a
career, why, they have you study, make up your studies. You study
English and that sort of thing.
Mr. Wheeler. The Curtis Institute
Miss PosKA. Is a musical institute, a school of music ; yes.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you a musician by occupation ?
Miss PosKA. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you pursuing that occupation at the present
time?
MissPosKA. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. Miss Poska, during our hearings here in Los Angeles
beginning on the 16th of April a former member of the Communist
Party, Don Christlieb, stated in the course of his testimony that he
knew you as a member of the Communist Party. Now, subsequent
to his identification of you, I believe you became aware of his identifi-
cation and notified the committee by telegram that you had not been
a member of the Commmiist Party ; and I contacted you on the basis
of that telegram.
MissPosKA. That is right.
Mr. Wheeler. And you desire to come before the committee and
straighten out the record ?
MissPosKA. That is correct.
Mr. Wheller. Will you proceed with what you wish to say.
Miss Poska. What you say is absolutely true.
It was during the war and I think Russia had been in the war,
oh, I don't know how long; but, anyway, all of us, all of my friends
and myself included, were very anti-Nazi and anti-Fascist ; and play-
ing around, why, I heard a lot of talk about the Marxist theory and
how valiant the Russians were, and so on and so forth; and I didn't
know from nothing about Marx or the Russian Revolution — I knew
that it had occurred — so I thought it would be interesting, out of
curiosity, to find out what Marx had to offer, what his theory was;
because everyone was talking about it, and I seemed rather stupid
tome.
Anyway, subsequently Mischa Altman contacted me and invited
me to go to meetings. Of course, at that time the Communist Party
was a recognized party, it was on the ballot, et cetera; nothing was
thought about it.
However, I went to a few — I can't remember how many I went
to because I didn't go regularly, for which they were pretty upset at
me, plus the fact that when I did go to a meeting I never knew my
COliIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5777
lesson. I had other things to do, I wasn't married, and if I wanted
to go out on a date, I went regardless of the meeting ; and they wanted
to know why I wasn't there and where — I figured it wasn't any of
their business. I was free, white, and 21 ; and I was going to — I didn't
think that I should be regimented, and I didn't like regimentation.
Mr. Jackson. Would you place this in the context of a time ? What
was the time period ?
Miss PosKA. You know, I don't remember. It must have been 1942
or 1943.
Mr. Wheeler. If I may intercede for a moment, the records of the
Communist Party of Los Angeles County show that she was a member
of the beginners' class in the year 1944.
Miss PosKA. Was it then 1944 ?
]\Ir. Wheeler. If that would help clarify it.
Mr. Jackson. Yes. I wanted to place this in its proper time period.
Miss PosKA. It was long ago and I had forgotten it, and I wasn't
enough interested to — you know, so it was 1944. So I was — I was
there, and I didn't go to meetings regularly, and I was reprimanded
and I didn't like it; and being religious — I am not fanatical, but I
go to church, and I like to go ; if I want to go, I go ; if I don't want to
go, I don't go.
But, by the same token, I don't want someone to tell me not to go,
any more than I want someone to tell me I am to go. I am free, and
when my basic liberties are jeopardized, I don't like it at all.
Mr. Wheeler. You were criticized for going to church by this
group of people ?
Miss PosKA. Well, it wasn't recommended. I mean, it wasn't the
thing to do, you know. They frowned upon it,
Mr. Wheeler. When I interviewed you last month there was some
doubt in your mind whether you actually joined the Communist Party.
Miss PosKA. To my knowledge, I didn't. I must have, but if they
have me down maybe I signed something. If I did, I certainly wasn't
aware of it at the time. That is how stupid I was.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you pay dues ?
Miss PosK^v. No ; I didn't. That is one thing, I was supposed to
give — I don't know how much, a certain percentage, I don't know
exactly the percentage of everything I made; and I inquired as to
why. Well, it went into the party.
Mr. Jackson. Wlio instructed you that you were supposed to give
a certain portion of your earnings ?
Miss Posic^i. Well, if I remember, Altman. He was always at the
meetings.
Mr. Jackson. How did you meet Mr. Altman ?
Miss PosKiV. He was a musician, and we worked together a long,
long, time ago when I first came to Los Angeles. I had known him
for many years.
Mr. Jackson. When would that have been ?
Miss Poska. I first came to Los Angeles in 1932. I had been he^-e
about a year when I met him, I believe ; but I have to give him A for
effort. They really worked on me, but the more they worked on me
the less I liked it.
Mr. Wheeler. How many meetings would you say you attended?
5778 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Miss PosKA. Mr. Wheeler, I don't remember. I might have gone
to a dozen, I might have gone to 10. I really— there weren't too
many.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you say you were connected with this group
for a period of 6 months or less ?
Miss PosKA. I'd say 6 months, maybe. Maximum, 6 months.
Mr. Wheeler. Over that period of time, did you attend approxi-
mately 12 meetings ? i , • 1 1
Miss PosKA. Well, I'd say. I never did keep track, but it could
have been very easily.
Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Doyle, I have no further questions concerning
the activities of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Do you, Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. Yes.
I should like to discuss the meetings a little furtlier. Where were
the meetings held which you attended ?
Miss PosKA. They were always at a different place in a private—
someone's private home.
Mr. Jackson. Whose home?
Miss PosKA. That I don't even remember, because they were always
in someone's — some different person's place. They w^eren't musicians,
because that I would remember. We were never at Christ lieb's house.
I think once we went to Altman's place — we met at Altman's place ;
and I don't even remember where he was living at the time. I do
I'emember very distinctly that I was supposed to go to one place and
I got lost. It was quite far away from where I was living, and I
finally gave up and went home. I was disgusted with the whole
business.
Mr. Jackson. During your attendance at these 8 or 10 meetings,
who else attended these meetings, in addition to yourself ?
Miss PosKA. As a rule, Altman was always there, Christlieb some
of the time, and then they were made up of, not musicians, but, oh,
there would be radio actors and people from the arts and sciences in
the different fi^elds ; maybe one would be a photographer. I know that
once — oh, do you remember I told you who was there, a writer in these
very well — John Howard Lawson was there at one meeting.
Mr. Jackson. And who else?
Miss PosKA. As I say, there were always very different, as a rule a
different group, and I couldn't name you them because I don't remem-
ber, and they weren't musicians.
Mr. Jackson. You attended 8 or 10 or 12 meetings over a period
of some months, during which time, and to the best of your knowledge,
you can remember only Mr. Lawson and Mr. Altman and Mr. Christ-
lieb?
Miss Poska. Yes; and I think once or twice Mrs. Christlieb was
there.
Mr. Jackson. How were you notified as to where you were to go to
these meetings ? How did you receive word on that ?
Miss PosKA. Either Altman — usually Altman called me, or I think
once or twice Christlieb called me.
Mr. Jackson. They would tell you that the meeting was to be held
in such and such a person's house ?
Miss Poska. Such and such address.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5779
Mr. Jackson. Such and such address, and without further identifi-
cation of whose address it was ?
MissPosKA. That is right.
Mv. Jackson. And under the compulsion of your oath, are you pre-
pared to say that you cannot now remember any other persons than the
?) you have named, or the 4, inckiding Mrs. Christlieb ?
Miss PosKA. Not by name, no, I can't. If I could, I certainly would
tell you.
Mr. Jackson. If not by name, can you identify any of these persons
in any other way ^
Miss PosKA. No, except that, as I say, I know that there would be an
actor or sometimes I know that I woulcl hear mention of photography
and studio work, and they were from the — I take it for gi-anted they
w^ere from the arts and sciences; but musicians, I never — the only ones
that I saw I mentioned.
Mr. Jackson. Did you know any of the actors ?
Miss PosKA. They weren't well known, no. They weren't big names,
because those I would remember.
Mr. Jackson. When did you terminate your association Avith the
Communist Party ?
Miss Poska. Well, I can't tell you exactly. It wasn't very long; I
mean, that I stopped completely going to meetings. Wlien I stopped
going to meetings they stopped speaking to me, too.
Mr. Jackson. Was any effort made to get you to return to the
party ?
Miss Poska. No. No, they didn't. They just ignored me.
Mr. Jackson. By "they," I suppose you mean the four persons
you mentioned ?
Miss PosKA. Christliebs and the Altmans.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Wheeler, is this substantially borne out by the
Christlieb testimony ?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. What is your present occupation ?
Miss Poska. I am a musician. I play my violin and I am also in the
real-estate business.
Mr. Jackson. Are you now engaged professionally in the music
field?
Miss Poska. Well, I do free-lance work. I am not under contract.
Mr. Jackson. I have nothing more, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Wheeler. As the record stands. Miss Poska, I believe you do
not deny that you were a member of the Communist Party, nor do you
admit you were a member of the Communist Party. Is that correct?
Miss Poska. To my knowledge I wasn't, but I must have been if they
say that I was in the student class or the beginners' class or whatever
it was.
Mr. Wheeler. It would stand to reason if they asked you for a per-
centage of your salary
Miss Poska. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. I mean, they must have considered you as a member
of their group?
Miss Poska. They must have.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask this : Did you pay some percentage of your
salary ?
77436—56 — pt. 11 3
5780 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Miss PosKA. Oil, never a penny.
Mr. Doyle. Did you ever distribute any literature in the group?
Miss PosKA. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Doyle. Or buy any literature ?
Miss PosKA. No. Whatever literature I had, they gave nie to read ;
which I never
Mr. Doyle. AVhen you went to the meetings, with whom did you go?
Miss PosKA. I went by myself.
Mr. Doyle. Did Mr. Lawson speak at that one meeting — if you
remember ?
Miss PosKA. Well, he sort of conducted the group.
Mr. Doyle. What did you do to leave the group 'i
Miss PosKA. What did I do ?
Mr. DoTLE. Yes.
Miss PosKA. I just quit going. I just stopped going to meetings.
Mr. Doyle. Did Mr. Altman ask you to come back ?
Miss PosKA. No, sir. They would tell me — they called me and
would say, "Well, there is a meeting at such and such an address";
and I'd say, "Well, I don't think I can make it" ; and I didn't go ; and
that was it.
Mr. Doyle. They must have given you a membership card if they
considered you a member.
Miss PosKA. No ; I never got a membership card.
Mr. Doyle. Did they give you any name other than your own to use ?
MissPosKA. No.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have the testimony here of the person who iden-
tified her?
Mr. Wheeler. No, sir; I do not. It was transcribed by reporters
from Washington, D. C, and taken to Washington, D. C.
I might mention, Mr. Doyle, that I have been advised that the records
of the Communist Party disclose Miss Poska as a very unsatisfactory
member. She was dropped by the Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. Can you help us to understand what there was about the
Communist group that constrained you to leave it ?
Miss PosKA. I don't like regimentation, Mr. Doyle, in any way,
shape, or form. I don't like it and I won't have it. I am free and
I am going to stay that way.
Mr. Doyle. Did they discuss at any of the meetings at which you
were ]:)resent, the matter of the relationship between our own Nation
and Russia ? What was the discussion ? That is, the different philos-
ophies of government.
Miss Poska. We were supposed to study Marx, and I was supposed
to read it, and we were supposed to know our lessons when we went
there; but I never knew mine, and it was — of course, it was anti-
capitalist, and I couldn't see anything wrong with our capitalistic
system. I think it, so far, is the best I know of.
Mr. Doyle. Of course, you mentioned you never knew your lesson.
Then you had a book on Marxism that you didn't study too much.
You must have had a book for your lesson.
Miss PosKA. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Did you buy that book?
Miss PosKA. No, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5781
Mr. Doyle. How many books on Marxism were you supposed to
read?
]Miss PosKA. I don't know, but I never even got through that one
because I wasn't interested.
Mr. Doyle. I wonder, was there any discussion at all of our own
Government ?
Miss PosKA. No, not to my knowledge.
Mr. Doyle. As compared with the Marxist theory ?
Miss PosKA. No.
Mr. Doyle. Any criticism of our form of Government?
Miss PosKA. No. I w^ouldn't say there was when I started — when
I was going to the meetings. They always, of course, stressed, natu-
rally, that the workers sliould — in Eussia what they are, and we are a
capitalistic system; and that was better, they thought; and that is
where I parted company also.
]Mr. Doyle. On the matter of the literature; you say you do not
know how many books on Marxism you had, but evidently you did not
have your lesson in one of them ?
]Miss PosKA. I didn't have them in anything they gave me. After
I quit going to meetings, I threw them in the incinerator.
Mr. Doyle. But I am wondering, did you get into the realm of
helping them; be the librarian?
Miss PosKA. No.
Mr. Doy^le. Or distribute any of the literature ?
^Nliss PosKA. No.
^Ir. Doyle. By repute, I know generally they do that with a be-
ginner.
Miss PosKA. No. I never
]Mr. Doyle. Who was the treasurer of the group ? There must have
been someone who was announced as treasurer.
Miss'PosKA. Altman, he was collecting. When anybody gave money
for anything, why he collected it. They gave it to him.
]Mr. Doyle. Didn't Mr. and Mrs. Altman once in a while pick you
up and go with you ?
Miss PosKA. No, sir.
]Mr. Doyle. Or you with him ?
Miss PosKA. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. "Wlio, then, was the chairman of the group if Altman
was the collector of dues? "VS^io was the chairman of it?
Miss PosKA. Well, he conducted the meetings.
Mr. Doyle. Mischa Altman did ?
Miss PosKA. Yes.
]Mr. Doyle. And he collected tlie money, too?
Miss PosKA. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Generally who phoned you as to where the meeting
was to be held?
Miss PosKA. It would be either Altman or Christlieb who would
phone me.
Mr. Doyle. Is Mr. Christlieb the one who identified the witness as
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir.
5782 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Doyle. Did you just drop out or did you send a written
resignation 'i
Miss PosKA. No, I just stopped. I just stopped going.
Mr. Doyle. Did you ever see their filing system, card index, books,
or records ?
Miss PosKA. I never did, no.
Mr. Doyle. How many members were in your group ?
Miss PosKA. I don't know. At tlie meetings that i attended there
wouldn't be more than 6 or 7. They were small.
Mr. Doyle. Did the members participate in the discussion? You
now were interested a little bit, at least. For instance, did you par-
ticipate in the discussions, too, along with the rest of them?
Miss PosKA. No. I was a pretty good listener.
Mr. Doyle. You did not have your lesson ?
Miss PosKA. I didn't.
Mr. Doyle. They criticized you because you did not have your
lesson ?
Miss PosKA. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. So evidently you were expected to know your lesson?
Miss PosKA. I was. I was supposed to have my lesson and I didn't.
Mr. Jackson. Were these meetings which you attended closed meet-
ings, or did you have the impression that you were free to bring
with you anyone you wanted to bring?
Miss PosKA. Well, I was never told that I could bring anyone and
I never did take anyone; but I would — looking back on it, I would
think that they were closed meetings.
Mr. Jackson. I am not prompting you in this regard, but was it
.your impression that you could not simply have taken a friend with
you to the meeting ; is that a correct statement ?
Miss PosKA. Well, that was — that would be the impression.
Mr. Jackson. And at no time were you asked to contribute or to
pay dues or to make any contribution ?
Miss Poska. Well, yes, I was expected to give a certain percentage
of everything I made.
Mr. Jackson. And this you did not do ?
Miss PosKA. I certainly didn't.
Mr. Jackson. Was this remonstrated about by Mr. Altman or any
of the other members?
Miss Poska. Well, when I inquired — you see, I always like to know
where my money is going. When I inquired where it was going he
said, "Well, to the Communist Party."
And I said, "What for?"
"Well," he said, "you are not supposed to ask."
I said, "I figure it is my money, it is my privilege to know." So I
said, "I don't feel like it."
Mr. Jackson. Have you followed the course of the recent hearings
of this committee in Los Angeles?
Miss PosKA. Where the musicians were involved, I did.
Mr. Jackson. Did you, during the course of those hearings, see the
photograph or read the testimony of any person who was known to
you either as a Communist or non- Communist ?
Miss PosKA._ Well, I wouldn't say — I couldn't say that anyone
except Mr. Christlieb was to my knowledge a Communist.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5783
]Mr. Jackson. Yes. Had you previously known any others who
testified during the course of those hearings?
Miss PosKA. Tliere wei-e a lot of musicians who testified that I
know ; yes.
Mr. Jacksox. Did you know any of them to have been members of
the Communist Party ?
Miss PosKA. No. I was very amazed. I think I told you, Mr.
Wheeler, tliat I was dumfounded at some of the names that I read,
completely dumfounded.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, inasmuch as the witness is not accom-
panied by counsel, I should like to ask one more question.
Mr. DovLE. Yes.
Mr, Jacksox. That is, wliether or not you feel that your rights have
been in any way abused by the subcommittee.
Miss Poska. Here today ?
Mr. Jackson. Here today.
Miss PosKA. I should say not.
Mr. Jacksox. And whether you have been in any way intimidated ?
Miss Poska. Oh, no.
yir. Jacksox. Or anything of that sort ?
Miss PosKA. Oh, no.
Mr. Jacksox. We so frequently meet with that charge. We like to
have it in the record. I think, as a matter of fact, you probably feel
much better for having gotten it ofi' your chest.
Miss PosKA. I certainly do. I am very happy to have come down
here this morning.
Mr. Jacksox. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Do you feel tliat Mr. Wheeler, our investigator, has
been perfectly fair to you in liis dealings with you ?
Miss Poska. He has been wonderful, and I consider him my friend.
Mr. Jackson. We are glad to say that he is probably the man with
the most "former Communist" friends of anyone we know.
^Ir. WiiEELEij. I would like to ask if you have been to the Federal
Bureau of Investigation.
Miss Poska. Yes ; I have.
^Ir. Doyle. I want to ask one more question.
One of tlie purposes of this committee under Public Law 601 is to
try to find, from former Communists especially
Miss Poska. Oh, that stigma.
Mr. Doyle. I asked it that way in view of your testimony, because
you say you must have been, even though you don't remember tech-
nically being a member. Have you any suggestion to make to the
Congress of the United States in the field of how to get at the subversive
activities ? Was there anything subversive discussed in your presence ?
Miss Poska. Never.
Mr. Doyle. Not in any way ?
Miss Poska. No, there wasn't, Mr. Doyle, not a thing ; because had
there been, I would have been the first to go to the FBI, because we
^vere at war and that was a very important thing to me. I liave con-
sidered myself an American and a good one, and I shall always be;
and anything subversive, believe me, I would be the first to — but
nothing was ever subversive that was mentioned when I was going
to meetings.
5784 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Jackson. The phrase "former Communist" has been mentioned,
and I think it slioiild be on the record that the committee and the
country owes a very great debt of gratitude to former Communists who
have seen it as their duty to come forward and tell the committee and
the country what they know about it, having honestly and decisively
broken with the Communist Party.
So I do not, Mr. Chairman, consider that the term "former Com-
munist" is anything but a term of approbation.
Mr. Doyle. I remember your testimony that at the time you were
in that group we were at war. All of the time that you were in the
group was liussia our ally?
Miss PosKA. Yes, it was.
Mr. DoYLE. However at that sam.e period of time the group was
being instructed of the difference between the Soviet system of
government and our system as you described, capitalistic system ?
Miss PosKA. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. I want to make it clear in my own thinking. Russia
was our ally, but at that time the Communist leaders in your presence
were contrasting the Soviet system of government to ours. That leads
me to think that there must have been a criticism of our form of
fgovei-nment, because at least they w^ere contrasting our form of
government with theirs, Avith the Russian system. That was a period
during which we were allied with Russia, and I am wondering to
what extent that was the subject of discussion during the time we
were an ally of Russia.
Miss PosKA. Well, as I said, I didn't go to subsequent meetings.
I mean, I didn't go every single time there was a meeting ; and from
what I learned — I mean, there was — they advocated or they agreed
with the Russian system that the government own everything; and
individual wealth or individual holdings wasn't such in Russia.
Otherwise, I mean, as far as anything subversive
Mr. Doyle. But it is interesting to me that during the time we
were an ally with Russia, that there was a group of people who were
evidently comparing, to the detriment of the capitalistic system which
you have referred to — you said they used that term — evidently crit-
icizing our form of government during the very time that they were
an ally in a war against Mr. Hitler.
Miss PosKA. I mean, I never did see anything wrong with our sys-
tem of government. I think, as I said before, I think it is the best.
However, they, when there would be any discussion, would compare
them. I don't say that they — well, they would criticize to a certain
extent, but not to any great extent where I would consider it subversive
insofar as tearing it down, by any means whatsoever.
Mr. Doyle. Along what line did they discuss our being an ally of
Russia ?
Miss PosKA. Well, they were for it at that time.
Mr. Doyle. Yes; but did they seem to express an appreciation of
the fact that we were joining with Russia and that we were an ally
of Russia ?
Miss PosKA. They were very happy that we were allied with Russia.
Mr. Doyle. And yet they did compare to the detriment of our own
country, the capitalistic system, as compared with the Soviet system ?
Miss PosKA. Well, that was the line at that time.
Mr. Doyle. I have nothing further, Mr. Jackson.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5785
Mr. Jackson. Just one more thing.
I should like to point out to the witness, to the best of my recollec-
tion she has identihed four people, and I say this in all good faith
and for your own protection. You have already said under the com-
pulsion of your oath that you cannot identify any other person who
was associated with you at your meetings. I want to point out that
if, subsequently, future witnesses may testify to the contrary, that a
very real danger to you exists. I would not want you, out of any moral
compunctions or for any reasons, to refrain from telling us if there
are anv more people with whom you were associated.
I say that again, Mr. Chairman; I say this for the protection of
the witness.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr, Jackson. We have had circumstances in the past Avhere wit-
nesses for one reason or another felt that they should not disclose any
names or some name; where subsequently it has developed that they
were not testifying in full good faith, which presents the committee
with only one course of action, and that is to refer the testimony to
the Attorney General of the United States. I simply say that to you
in order that perhp.ps out of the best of motives you may conceivably
be withholding from us the name or names of some of the people with
whom you were associated at that time.
Miss PosKA. No; I am not. I think — I have been thinking about
this ever since Mr. Wheeler first interviewed me.
And I tried to think and tried to think, and I just^ — if I knew or if
I could think, I w^ould certainly tell you.
Mr. Jackson. Yes ; I am sure that is the case.
But I felt that I should, Mr. Chairman, place that in the record
in order that it might be absolutely clear to her.
Miss PosKA. As I say, I have just told these gentlemen — I have
been thinking ever since you first contacted me and we got together,
I have been thinking and thinking back^ — whom, if anyone, I could
i-emember who were at those meetings; and aside from the Altmans
and the Christliebs, I just can't remember.
Mr. Jackson. Of course, we don't expect you, nor do we want you,
to be at all uncertain or haphazard about it. We want the facts that:
are in your knowledge, and that is all.
I have nothing further, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. I think I recall in that connection. Miss Poska, your
testimony is that tliere were only 6 or 8 people in the group.
Miss PosKA. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. You have named 4 of them, so it would only be a matter
of vour telling who the other 2 or 3 were.
Mr. Jackson. Unless they were different people at different
meetings.
Miss Poska. At different times.
Mr. Jackson. Which would substantially increase the number, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. How many totally different people Avonld yon say were
in the group during the 8 or 10 or 12 meetings you attended?
Miss PosKA. Almost every time there would be a different conglom-
eration of people.
Mr. Doyle. The Altmans and the Christliebs would make four. If
the groups were not more numerous than 6 or 8 or 10, then you would
5786 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
only liave at most 4 different people at each meeting. If these same
four people attended.
Miss PosKA. Now, for instance, I wouldn't say that they were all
four there at the same time, you see.
Mr. Doyle. I see.
Miss PosKA, They w^eren't always there together.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Jackson is trying to be very fair and very explicit
with you.
Miss PosKA. I understand that.
Mr. Doyle. But we are so anxious that you go out of the room feel-
ing that you have given the best that you have according to your recol-
lection, because we never know when some other witness is going to
come forward and name other persons who might be in this same group.
Miss PosKA. That is true. I realize that, and if 1 •
Mr. Jackson. Even more than that, Mr. Chairman, if I may —
someone who may have on a number of occasions accompanied you to
the meeting — I don't say that that occurred, but I think that is what
the chairman and I are trying to point out to you, that we do not want
you advertently or inadvertently to place yourself in a position where
subsequent testimony may tend to incriminate you. We want to be
fair. We are trying; to be absolutely fair in this.
Miss PosKA. Wait a minute ; to the best of my knowledge I always
went alone. I don't remember of having gone with anyone. I know I
had my own car, and I drove ; and I was living by myself at the time.
Mr. Jackson. So far as I know there is no testimony to the contrary,
but, again, I simply stress that.
May I ask one question in conclusion ?
Without prejudice to the right of our committee to release your testi-
mony at any tmie, which, of course, is within the jurisdiction of the
full committee, do you have any personal objection to the release of the
testimony or to the fact of your testifying at this time — the fact of
your cooperation with the committee ?
Miss PosKA. No.
Mr. Wheeler. I think she wants it released.
Mr. Jackson. That is the point I wanted to make.
Miss PosKA. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. I say that I am not binding the committee to take
action one way or the other, but we should like to, in light of the fact
that you have cooperated — at least, I should like to be able to say to
the press that you did appear and cooperated fully with the committee.
Miss PosKA. It would make me very happy.
Mr. Doyle. What was your motive for coming forward and asking
the hearing?
Miss PosKA. Well, I didn't
Mr. Doyle. Why did you do that?
Miss PosKA. Why did I ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Miss PosKA. I was so stunned, and I was so mad and surprised that
I wanted to get the record straight that I am not a Communist ; and to
my knowledge — I mean, I wouldn't have anything to do with them,
and to my knowledge I never was. But that is my only purpose.
Mr. Doyle. All right. Thank you very much.
I want to ask Mr. Jackson if he wants to ask any more questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I think in justice to Mr. Christlieb we
should have it very clearly set forth in the record if the witness denies
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5787
membership in the Communist Party. Mr. Christlieb has testified
affirmatively that the witness was, to the best of his knowledge, a mem-
ber of the Communist Party, and I don't want to becloud his other
identifications by any uncertainty in this case. It would seem to me
from what has been adduced here today that the witness was indeed,
whether she realized it or not, a member of the party.
1 think you will appreciate, Mr. Chairman, the point I am making.
Mr. Doyle. I do.
Mr. Jackson. It is that there are other identifications which I do
not want to see beclouded unless they should be beclouded, by any
leaving of this in a cloud as to whether or not the witness was at one
time a member of the Communist Party. So far as I personally am
concerned, Mr. Chairman, the fact of attendance at what appear to
have been closed meetings of the Communist Party, the fact of what
appears to be recruitment by Mr. Altman, would lead me to believe that
you had indeed — whether knowingly or not— become a member of the
Communist Party. I simply want to make the record clear and not
have tlie final record appear as being clouded by the profession of the
witness as not knowing whether or not she had been a member of the
party.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Jackson. Let me go back on the record.
Mr. Chairman, other individuals identified by Mr. Christlieb who
were subsequently called before the committee to testify availed them-
selves of the privileges of the fifth amendment in refusing to answer
any questions having to do with their alleged activities within the
Communist Party.
Mr. Wheeler. Or affirm their membership.
Mr. Jackson. Or conversely, affirm the testimony of Mr. Christlieb
as to their membership and activities in and on behalf of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Doyle. I am glad you added that, Mr. Jackson.
T think to be perfectly fair with the witness, I should add that, too.
As I hear your testimony, you state you don't know whether or not
you were a member. I think that is the essense of your testimony so
far as membership is concerned, you don't know whether or not you
were technically; that fact as Mr. Jackson has mentioned, plus the
fact that you refused to pay the dues they asked, that they asked you
appareiitly to pay a percentage of your income as dues, and you say
you never paid any of that percentage.
Miss PosKA. No, sir ; I didn't.
Mr. Doyle. But as Mr. Jackson points out, you have testified that
these meetings were what you thought were closed meetings — you were
not free to invite anyone to go with you ?
In our experience that means that they are closed meetings, that
you considered them a closed arrangement, not an invitational affair
to which you could take another person. I want to be perfectlj'^ frank
with you. From your testimony, my own conclusion is that whether
you knew it or not you were a member of that group ; I can't draw any
other conclusion.
Miss PosKA. I obviously was. I very obviously was.
Mr. Jackson. That I think must be the conclusion of any objective
jjerson looking at it. I assure you we are not in any way trying, nor
77436— 56— pt. 11 1
5788 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
am I trying, to put any thouglits in your mind or words in your mouth,
but I do want to protect the integrity of the testimony which we have
received.
MissPosKA. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr. Jackson. Which has proven itself so far as we have been able
to explore it. I am sure you understand the situation in which the
committee finds itself.
MissPosKA. Surely.
Mr. Jackson. Not to unduly embarrass you or not to question your
word in any way, but if there is any doubt in your mind on the score
of membership, I would feel, Mr. Chairman, as a member of the com-
mittee, that we should ask for a denial of membership in order that
the situation might be perfectly clear — either something more perhaps
than simply it might have been and it might not have been, which
tends to cloud the testimony of Mr. Christlieb.
Perhaps I can simplify it by asking simply, if you deny that you
were ever a member of the Communist Party.
Miss PosKA. I can't deny it when my name is on the record of the
Communist Party.
Mr. Jackson. No. Your name might appear as mine might or Mr.
Doyle's might, by someone simply writing it down, or the name of any
other citizen whom an official of the Communist Party might perhaps
want to demean by writing it in. I think this is an important matter,
Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. I do, too.
Mr. Jackson. I cannot be personally satisfied with an answer,
"Well, perhaps I was and perhaps I was not." We have had this here-
tofore. I personally would be unwilling to accept such an answer.
Mr. Doyle, May I supplement Mr. Jackson's thought to you. May
I ask you this : During the time you attended the meetings, did you
consider yourself in your own thinking a member of the Communist
Party?
Miss PosKA. No; I didn't. I didn't. I didn't consider myself a
member.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle, may I ask one further question ? You read
the reports of Mr, Christlieb's testimony.
Miss PosKA. Yes.
Mr, Jackson. Was that testimony in any respect, so far as it per-
tained to you, false ?
Miss PosKA. No.
Mr, Jackson, Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Jackson, I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have anything further to add, Miss Poska ?
Miss Poska. No ; I haven't.
Mr. Doyle, Are you perfectly satisfied ?
Miss Poska. I am very happy to have had this opportunity of
getting all this off my chest.
Mr. Jackson. Fine.
Mr. Doyle. Is there anything else, Mr. Wheeler ?
Mr, Wheeler. No.
Mr. Jackson. Thank you very much. We thank you for coming to
this hearing.
INVESTIGATION OF C03IMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— Part II
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 6, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-Aimerican Activities,
Los Angeles, Calif.
executrte session ^
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to call, at 11 : 45 a. m., in room 484 of the Statler Hotel, Los
Angeles, Calif., Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman) presiding.
Committee member present : Representative Clyde Doyle of Cali-
fornia.
Staff member present : William A. Wheeler, investigator.
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Viertel, will you rise, please, and be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give to this sub-
committee sliall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Viertel. I do.
TESTIMONY OF VIRGINIA VIERTEL, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, MARTIN GANG
Mr. Wheeler, Will you state your full name, please ?
Mrs. Viertel. Virginia Viertel.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes; Mr. Martin Gang.
Mr. Doyle. Will counsel state his name for the record ?
Mr. Gang. Martin Gang, 6400 Sunset Boulevard.
Mr. Wheeler. Where were you born, Mrs. Viertel ?
Mr. Viertel. Beaver, Pa., September 3, 1915.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you relate your educational backgi'ound?
Mrs. Viertei>. I went to Fairfax High School in Los Angeles, and
then years later I went 1 year at USC and 1 year at UCLA.
Mr. Wheeler. "Wliat is your occupation ?
Mrs. Viertel. Editor it has been. Nothing right now.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you referring to an editor in the motion picture
industry ?
Mrs. Viertel. Mostly not.
1 Ordered released by the committee August 7, 1956.
5789
5790 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Wheeler. Mostly not ? Then in what field ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. In books. Book publishing.
Mr. Wheeler. You are appearing before the subcommittee at your
own request ; is that correct ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. I believe you know that you have been identified as a
member of the Communist Party by witnesses before the committee?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. Were you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes; I was.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you please state when you first joined the
Communist Party ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes. It isn't entirely easy, but I think it was 1936
or thereabouts.
Mr. Wheeler. When did you terminate that membership?
Mrs. Viertel. That, too, is not exactly a definite date, but it was
certainly erratic after 1940; but I know that after — during 1945 I
never saw anybody again. That was the final end.
Mr. Wheeler. Were you previously married to Budd Schulberg?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. When did the marriage terminate in divorce?
Mrs. Viertel. In 1944, 1 think. Is that right ?
Mr. Gang. You separated in 1942.
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. I believe you said you separated in 1942, were di-
vorced in 1944.
Mrs. Viertel. 1944.
Mr. Wheeler. I want the record clear.
Mr. Gang. Make the record clear, would you ?
Mrs. Viertel. Oh, yes. We separated in 1942 and were divorced
in 1944.
Mr. Wheeler. May the record show that you were divorced in
January of 1944?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. Was your membership in the Communist Party
during the entire period of your marriage to Mr. Schulberg ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes. I was a member the whole time ; but, as I say,
we often went away and we weren't in constant attendance.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you state your constant attendance, then, in
the CoiiTmunist Party, if you possibly can? When did you start to
draw away from membership — become disinterested?
Mrs. Viertel. Oh, I should say in 1939. We had some small quar-
rels and things in 1938 and 1939, really, but I guess in 1940, that was —
I don't think we attended meetings regularly ever again.
Mr. Wheeler. After 1940?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. But you still retained your membership to a later
date?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes, but it really didn't matter. It is hard ; I know
it seems strange, but membership one didn't think about. That was
a rather loose — it was unimportant.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you pay Communist Party dues during the
entire time of your membership ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5791
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes. Mine were nominal dues. Housewife dues.
Fifty cents or a dollar.
Mr. Wheeler. Wlien did you completely divorce yourself from the
(Communist Party ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Well, completely in 1945.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask, up until what time did you pay dues ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Well, I imagine until 1940, because after that I did
not go to regular meetings. I was not a regular member.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you tell the subcommittee, please, the reasons
you joined the Communist Party ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes. It is really very simple, because we had just
been through the depression and it hit most of us quite hard — if not us,
because we were so young, we saw what happened, and we thought
there must be economic reasons for this, and we all wanted to study
and find out about it. It was bewildering to young people to have
suddenly the whole world that we knew sort of crash, and then just
on the humanitarian level, the unemployed, and the people were going
through such hardships. That marks young people, I think, very
much. It would take a very calloused young person not to respond
some way. Then we were — and we responded in the only way we knew
how, because we were intellectuals, so we studied and tried to find out
about it.
Then we were certainly anti-Fascist, and no other organization or
group seemed to be doing anything about this at that time. There
was nothing that one could — a young person could go to say,
at least for guidance. Not even church groups. The Communist
Party held out the only knowledge — when up in Imperial Valley, for
example, where the poor were starving. Nobody helped except the
Communist Party. They went in and raised money; for floods, for
disasters of all kinds; and they seemed like a great humanitarian
group. I think most of the young people were pleased to be noticed
by them,
Mr. Wheeler. Did you ever hold any office in the Communist
Party?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No.
]Mr. Wheeler. Neither on the county level nor on a club level?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No.
Mr. Wheeler. Were you assigned to a club by the Communist
Party?
]\Ir. ViERTEL. Yes; I guess so. I must have been assigned, but I
think I either— I must have started just with Budd, and then just
continued with the writers' group.
Mr. Wheeler. You are referring to Budd Schulberg?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes. I am sorry.
Mr. Wheeler. "V\^iy did you leave the Communist Party?
Mrs. ViERTEL. For many years, after 1940, really, there was no
reason for me to be in it. I had sort of completed my study course,
and that was the main reason I was in there, and that is why I returned
a few times after 1940, just because they were discussing something I
wanted to hear; and they were friends also. I mean, even though I
5792 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
didn't agree with — and I began to realize, you know, we voted on
things and that sort, it was nonsense because the things would come
down from the top and we would vote either in agreement or dis-
agreement, but that was — had very little bearing on anything. That
was quite clear. At times irritating.
Mr. Wheeler. In what specifically did you disagree with the
Communist Party doctrine ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. All kinds of things.
Mr. Wheeler. Mention them.
Mrs. ViERTEL. Oh, dear. That was a long time ago.
Mostly it was on minor levels. The major issues until they switched
and that sort of thing ; I do believe we either agreed or disagreed, but
that was long after the fact. That is an incredible thing for that kind
of an organization. I think generally to straighten it up on anything,
I had been reading, and reading anti- Communist books for the first
time, which was rather odd, and it became rather open.
Mr. Wheeler. You state one reason you became interested in the
Communist Party was its stand on the rise of nazism and fascism in
Europe. What was your reaction to the Stalin-Hitler pact?
Mrs. VnsRTEL. Frankly, I thought it was a good maneuver to gain
time.
Mr. Wheeler. How was that explained to you ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. We were away. It wasn't explained. As you know,
we were living in the East then and out of contact with all party mem-
bers ; and the Daily Worker just didn't mention it, as you know, for
several days. They didn't know what to saj^ Budd Schulberg got
terribly upset and that was really the end for him, I think.
It didn't bother me. I didn't really think it was a pact between
these two people — two countries, on any other level except that I
think — I thought Russia was pressed for time, and this was kind of a
good stalling maneuver. I have been wrong on everything, so I can
be wrong on a few more things.
Mr. Wheeler. Do you recall the names of any individuals you met
as members of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes, of course. People in my group ?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes.
Mrs. ViERTEL. Budd Schulberg, Ring Lardner, Jr., Dalton Trumbo,
Bob Rossen, Albert Maltz; and ordinarily wives, too; though later
not.
Mr. Wheeler. For the record, I think it should be shown that Budd
Schulberg has appeared before the committee several years ago and
cooperated.
Mr. Gang. I might say that in helping Mrs. Viertel prepare for this
thing, I gave her a copy of Mr. Schulberg's testimony so she might
read it and refresh her recollection as to what happened those many
years ago, and I am sure she did read it.
Mrs. Viertel. I did read it, but it didn't refresh too much because
he knew people I didn't know, and so on.
Mr. Gang. I see.
Mr. Wheeler. We have the testimony.
Mr. Doyle. Were these 4 to 6 people you have just named known to
you to be members of this Communist group ?
Mrs. Viertel. I assumed they were, as they undoubtedly assumed I
was.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5793
Mr. D0YI.E. Did you attend meetings, closed meetings, of the Com-
munist Party with them?
Mrs. YiERTEL. Yes, though very often one didn't know whether it
was a closed or open meeting, it seems to me. I mean, I have no defi-
nite proof that thej^ were, but I assume they were.
Mr. Doyle. May I make it clear? Do you recall attending any
closed meetings of the group at which these 4 or 5 people you named
were also present with you?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes, and there must have been others, too.
Mr. DoYT^. I mean meetings at which a non-Communist would not
have been admitted.
IMrs. ViERTEL. Probably, yes.
Mr. Gang. Off the record.
Mr. Doyle, Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Doyle. Back on the record.
Mr. Wheeler. There has been previous testimony before the com-
mittee. It appears in part 4, Communist Infiltration of the Holly-
wood Motion Picture Industry; the hearings which were held
September 17, 18, and 19, 1951, wherein you were identified as a
member of the Communist Party and a member of a Communist
Party group. This testimony reflects that the following individuals
were members of the group : Gordon Kahn — do you recall Mr. Kahn
as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. I knew him very well. He may have been in my
group and may not. I certainly attended meetings with him,
Mr. Wheeler, You have attended meetings with him ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. Communist Party meetings?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes, but I just don't know whether he was in my
particular group or not.
Mr. Doyle. Were those closed Communist Party meetings ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No. They would be — I don't believe I ever was in
a closed meeting with him.
Mr. Wheeler. On what would you base your identification that he
was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. I assumed he was a Communist from conversations.
He was in our group, social group. He spoke Communist the way we
all did. I don't know what he would have been doing there if he
hadn't been.
Mr. Wheeler. He has been previously identified before the com-
mittee, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. Wheeler. Maurice Rapf.
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes ; I am sorry. He was— I believe he was in the
closed group with us.
Mr. Wheeler. I believe you mentioned Eing Lardner, Jr. ?
Mr. Gang. She did.
Mr. Wheeler, Budd Schulberg, Sam Ornitz.
Mrs. ViERTEL. I don't think he was in our little group. It was
rather small.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you know him ?
5794 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mrs, ViERTEL. I knew him, and I knew him to be a Communist from
his own saying so.
May I smoke ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Wheeler. Do you recall anyone else who was a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mrs. Viertel. Well, I am sure I would. It is awful to be so vague.
Like Maurice Eapf . I knew him very well, but I hadn't thought of
him until you mentioned his name.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you know Jerome Chodorov ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes; I knew him very well, but not politically. I
just knew him as a friend.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you know Frank Davis ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes ; I knew him.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you know him to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Viertel. No.
Mr. Doyle. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Doyle. Back on the record.
Mr, Wheeler. Did you know John Howard Lawson ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes, John Howard Lawson.
Mr. Wheeler. Were you a member of the Young Communist League
prior to your membership in the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes. I don't know whether I was really a member,
but I went to YCL meetings ; but I don't think I was
Mr. Wheeler. Did you know Elizabeth Wilson ?
Mrs, Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. She appeared before the committee as a cooperative
witness, and in the course of her testimony identified you as being in
attendance at meetings of the Young Communist group.
Mrs. Viertel. Well, we went together to a YCL convention in San
Francisco, and I drove her, but I think that was the only time I was
ever in an actual meeting.
Mr. Wheeler. Were you selected as a delegate by the YCL ?
Mrs, Viertel, No, I just wanted to go. I had never been.
Mr, Doyle. Wliat year would that have been ?
Mr, Gang. 1937 or 1938.
Mrs, Viertel, It must have been. It was very early.
Mr, Doyle, Would it have been 1937 or 1938 ?
Mrs. Viertel. I would think 1937.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, you drove from Los Angeles to San
Francisco ?
Mrs, Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. You must have been interested.
Mrs. Viertel, I never had been to San Francisco, either; and a
group of us went up, I can't remember anybody else. I know Betty
Anderson was with us, but I don't know what other characters I took
up there.
Mr, Wheeler, Did you use another name when you joined the Com-
munist Party?
Mrs, Viertel. No.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5795
Mr. Wheeler. Did you have a Communist Party name?
Mrs. ViEKTEL. No. The American consul in Zurich told me I had
and told me the name, and he asked me if I knew this woman, and I
said, ''No,-' absolutely conhdent; and he said it was I. So apparently
I had another name and just didn't know it.
Mr. Wheeler. When were you interviewed by the American con-
sulate in Zurich?
Mrs. A iertel. Two years ago.
Mr. Wheeler. Was it in regard to Communist Party membership ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. It was in regard to my passport. If I intended living
in Europe
Mr. Wheeler. Our records show that you used the name Joan
Benton.
Mrs. Viertel. That is what he said, but I had no way of knowing
that.
Mr. Wheeler. Do you recall if you were ever a member of the Sam
Adams Club of the Comnumist Party, Hollywood section ?
Mrs. Yiertel. I never heard of that.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you ever attend any closed meetings of the Com-
munist Party after the year 1945 ?
Mrs. Viertel, No ; nor open ones, either.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you know Leon Becker as a member of the
Communist Party?
Mrs. Viertel. No. I knew Leon very well. I knew he went to a
study group, and I don't know
Mr. "Wheeler. Did Leon Becker reside in your and your former
husband's home for a while ?
jNIrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. And Lester Koenig ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. They both resided with you ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes. We shared a house.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you know Lester Koenig was a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mrs. Viertel. There again I assumed he was, but he was not in my
group.
Mr. Wheeler. What year did they reside at 3'our home ?
Mrs. Viertel. I suppose it was 1938 and possibly the beginning of
1939, I am not sure. I am sorry. I know the house and all that,
but I am not sure when. 1938 or 1939, as I recollect.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you go to Mexico City in 1939 ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. Who accompanied you on the trip ?
Mrs. Viertel. 1939, my former sister-in-law, Sonia Schulberg, and
John Spivak.
Mr. Wheeler. John Spivak ?
Mrs. Viertel. John L. Spivak. Now, he had Communist Party
contacts, but I didn't know that he was a party member.
Mr. Wheeler. For what reason did you travel to Mexico ?
Mrs. Viertel. He didn't know how to drive, and I told him I would
drive him, because he wanted to go down — he wanted me to take
5796 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
photographs, which I did, of what he thought were Japanese fortifica-
tions in Mexico — not fortifications, but spies, apparently, who were
working at odd jobs, and ships that came into the harbor with all
kinds of — I don't know — terrible things on them; and I did take
pictures and they were published in Ken magazine, which became
defunct. That was the purpose of the trip, but mostly it was just a
wonderful time. Sonia and I had a great time.
Mr. Wheeler. Where did you stay in Mexico ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Well, all kinds of little — it wasn't Mexico City. We
went down as far as Guaymas.
Mr. Wheeler. I mean, what coastal towns did you visit ?
Mrs. ViERTEL, Guaymas.
Mr. Wheeler. Was that the only place ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. The only coastal.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you have a contact with any other person while
in Mexico City or in Mexico ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No. We didn't know anybody.
Mr. Wheeler. Just the three of you went 2
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. That would be your former
Mrs. ViERTEL. Sister-in-law.
Mr. Wheeler. Sonia Schulberg.
Mrs. ViERTEL. We w^ere left to our own devices, except the time
where I took pictures of the Japanese barber who was supposed
to be a spy, and the fishing boat that had some sort of equipment.
Mr. Wheeler. Did the Communist Party in Los Angeles County
or the State of California know you were making this trip ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No.
Mr. Wheeler. How long were you gone ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. I don't remember. I suppose 10 days. Something
like that.
Mr. Wheeler. How far is Guaymas?
Mrs. ViERTEL. It is really the Gulf of California. It is that — you
get there much faster by boat from Ensenada down to Guaymas, which
is an ordinary fishing run when you charter fishing boats. Tliey often
go down as far as Guaymas. We went down through Hermosillo.
I guess the border was Nogales. We never met anyone that he was
seeing because he would disappear on these mysterious missions in
the evening and so on. We didn't know where he went and he didn't
tell us about it, either.
Mr. Wheeler. In other words, you were not in constant contact
with him ?
Mr. ViERTEL. No, indeed.
Mr. Wheeler. You were gone 10 days. It would take what — 2 days
to get down there ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No. We stayed some time in Hermosillo, and then
we took a little longer than we thought because the road ended and
we had to drive over desert and we didn't know where we were going.
We stayed in Guaymas some time. A few days, anyway.
Mr. Wheeler. You say he would leave every night?
Mrs. ViERTEL. And during the day, too.
Mr. Wheeler. During the day, too?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5797
Mrs. ViERTEL. He was making phone calls, busy seeing people.
He didn't tell and we didn't care. We weren't interested in what
he w^as doing.
Mr. AVheeler. How did you first meet this John Spivak?
Mrs. Viertel. At our house, I guess; through Budd, I imagine.
Mr. Doyle. "We will take a short recess.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr. Doyle. You may proceed, Mr. Wheeler.
Mr. Wheeler. How^ long after you met Mr. Spivak did you make
the trip to Mexico ?
Mrs. Viertel. I have no idea when I met him. It seems to me
Budd must have known him from college, I should say.
Mr. Wheeler. Was he the same age ?
]Mrs. Viertel. No. No. He w^as older, but he must have known
him because that was Budd's most active political tie in all sorts of
fields. Not as a Communist, I don't mean, but as editor of the paper
and so on he met other editors, writers, and there were lecturers ; and
Spivak was one of tlie well-known fellows in young intellectual circles.
We did read liis books and so on. I can't remember the names of them
any more. He spoke at all kinds of meetings, different kinds of meet-
ings, you know.
Mr. Wheeler. You married Budd Schulberg on December 31, 1936 ?
Mrs. Viertel. 1936.
Mr. Wheeler. This trip to Mexico was in the year 1939, and that
would date your meeting with Mr. Spivak between 1936 and 1939 ?
Mrs. Viertel. Not necessarily.
Mr. Wheeler. You said Budd Schulberg introduced you two at
the house. I assume that you were married ?
Mrs. Viertel. Oh, we lived w^ith his father after we w^ere married,
and I was there considerably before we were married — I mean, there
quite a lot. I knew all his friends.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you meet Mr. Spivak before or after your
marriage ?
Mrs. Viertel. I wouldn't know, because w^e were married in the
house tliat we finally lived in, but that was his father's house.
jNIr. Wheeler. How many times did you see Mr. Spivak, before
the trip to Mexico ?
Mrs. Viertel. Oh, I have no idea. I am sorry.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you consider yourself a good friend of his at
that time ?
Mrs. Viertel. No.
Mr. WiiEFXER. What I am trying to get at, is it unusual for two
women to drive a man to Mexico ?
Mrs. Viertel. Not really.
Mr. Wheeler. Wliat w-ere the reasons behind it? I mean, how well
did you know him, as a good friend ? Did he frequent your home ?
Mrs. Viertel. He made long-distance phone calls.
Mr. Wheeler. You are being very vague about it.
Mrs. Viertel. I don't mean to be vague.
Mr. Wheeler. Here is a man you and your sister-in-law went to
Mexico Mnth for 10 days, and it seems to me
Mrs. Viertel. We had known him around. He had come to the
beach house. We had known him a long time, but we weren't intimate
friends.
5798 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Wheeler. For whom did he write ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Papers, magazines; I don't really know what ones
they were. This particular one was for Ken, Ken magazine. It is
not any more, but he had an assignment to go down and see about the
Japanese spies, and we simply thought it would be a nice trip. We
liad made many trips together, my sister-in-law and I. We were very
I'lose.
Mr. Wheeler. Have you see Mr. Spivak subsequent to the time of
the trip to Mexico ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. I think he left. I don't remember seeing him.
]Mr. Wheeler. When is the last time you heard of him?
Mrs. ViERTEL. I haven't heard of him at all.
Mr. Wheeler. He completely dropped out of sight ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. I don't remember ever seeing him.
Mr. Wheeler. No more phone calls, no contact ?
]Mrs. ViERTEL. He went East, and we certainly never looked him
lip, so I don't know what happened to him.
Mr. Wheeler. How many pictures were taken in Mexico?
Mrs. Vierticl. Oh, I took endless pictures — you mean photographs
that I took?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes.
Mrs. ViERTEL. Oh, quite a lot. Several film packs. I had an old
Graflex.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you give all of them to Mr. Spivak ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes, all the ones that he could use of the boats.
Mr. Wheeler. Were they turned over to any other person ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No. I have no idea what happened to them.
Mr. Wheeler. They were all turned over to Mr. Spivak. How many
trips did you make to Mexico ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. I made another one
Mr. Wheeler. Either before or subsequent.
Mrs. ViERTEL. Well, lots across the border here, but into Mexico
proper.
Mr. Wheeler. Let us take Mexico proper.
Mrs. ViERTEL. I think the only other one was, I guess, 1942.
Mr. Wheeler. July 30?
Mrs. ViERTEL. I don't know the date.
Mr. Wheeler. That is the date you returned.
Mrs. ViERTEL, Oh.
Mr. Wheeler. How long were you in Mexico on this trip ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. A few days. I don't know exactly how long.
Mr. Wheeler. Who accompanied you on the trip ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No one. I went down to see my husband who was
there working.
Mr. Wheeler. In Mexico City?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. Did this trip to Mexico in 1942 have any bearing
on your Communist Party membership ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No ; I went down to ask him for a divorce. That is
all I went for.
Mr. Wheeler. Did the trip to Mexico in 1939 have any bearing on
your Communist Party membership ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Not to us ; no.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5799^
Mr. Wheeler. Did you know Mr. Spivak was a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mrs, ViER'iTL. I don't know that he was a member.
Mr. Wheeler. What was his political philosophy, if you recall?
He was in your home.
Mrs. ViERTEL. Well, he was certainly left, I would saj^; but I don't
know that he was — I don't know really.
Mr. Wheeler. How did you consider him ? I mean, certainly being^
a member of the Conmiunist Party you wouldn't have constant asso-
ciation or n;o on a trip with him if he was a Fascist.
Mrs. Viertel. No ; certainly not. That doesn't necessarily mean he
was a Communist.
Mr. Wheeler. No ; I am not saying he was a Communist.
Mrs. Viertel. He was certainly nothing — as I said, he was left^
what we considered left.
Mr. Wheeler. His philosophy, then, was acceptable to you ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes, certainly.
Mr. Wheeler. Were you detained at the border on July 30, 1942 ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. "Wliat transpired ?
Mrs. Viertel. I can't remember except that they asked me all kinds
of — I don't even know who they were, but I was called aside when
we got to the office, you know, and asked whom I had seen in Mexico ;
and I guess that I must have said — and I couldn't understand why
they were questioning me. I really didn't understand that at alL
That was mystifying. I still don't know why.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you see anyone in Mexico besides your husband ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes. I saw an associate of my husband at that time,,
who to my knowledge had no connection with the party.
Mr. Wheeler. How long were you detained at the border, Mrs.
Viertel ?
Mrs. Viertel. I don't remember that, either.
Mr. Wheeler. You said it was unusual to be detained.
Mrs. Viertel. Just to be detained was incredible, but I don't re-
member how long it was.
Mr. Wheeler. Was it an hour ?
Mrs. Viertel. I think so.
Mr. Wheeler. Half a day ?
Mrs. Viertel. No ; I guess it was an hour or so.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you tell us, please, what they asked you
while you were being detained there ?
Mrs. Viertel. I believe they asked me who I had seen in Mexico;
and I answered, "My husband."
Oh, yes, I do remember. They asked me if I had seen anyone who
was connected in any way with the Falangist group, and I can remem-
ber being amazed, because that obviously would have been the Fascist
group in Spain, and why I would have seen them in Mexico bewildered
me.
I don't remember anything else they asked me.
Mr. Wheeler. Was your luggage in your possession at the time
you were interviewed — I assume it was customs.
Mrs. Viertel. Yes ; it was customs.
Mr. Wheeler. Was your luggage in your possession ?
5800 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mrs. ViERTEL. I don't remember, because it was after a plane flight
and I don't know whether the higgage wns out and I had it or whether
it was still in the plane or the baggage room. I don't know.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you know whether or not your luggage was
searched ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No ; I don't know.
Mr, Wheeler. Now, on both your trips to Mexico — these two trips
we are specifically talking about- — you went without the knowledge
of the Communist Party ; is that right ?
Mrs. ViERTEL, Well, I don't think it is quite right to say without
the knowledge. Without the sanction.
Mr. Wheeler. Did you go there at the direction of the Communist
Party ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No ; certainly not.
Mr. Doyle. Well, may I ask this: Did you go of your own voli-
tion but with their approval ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No. Just of my own volition, and my friends cer-
tainly knew I was going; but it had no bearing on the party at all.
( Discussion off the record. ) '
Mr. Wheeler. Proceed.
Mrs. ViERTEL. I would like to make it clear that on neither trip to
Mexico was there anything concerned except my own personal life,
and specifically nothing with reference to the Communist Party.
Mr. Wheeler. Were you questioned by the Federal Bureau of In-
vestigation ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. Did they discuss these trips to Mexico with you?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes, and I told them the same thing, that I didn't
understand it.
Mr. AVheeler. Did the American consul ask you ?
Mrs. Viertel, No.
Mr. Wheler. You were interviewed twice, weren't you, while in
Europe ?
Mrs. Viertel. More than twice I went to see him. He was very
sympathetic, very nice. We tried to work out — I told him just about
everything I have said now, really.
Mr. Wheler. In 1943 did you reside at 1439 Stone Canyon Koad ?
Mrs. Viertel, What year ?
Mr. Wheeler. 1943.
Mrs. Viertel. Yes, I did.
Mr. Wheeler. They have a reference liere that on August 21 of that
year a benefit for the People's World was held at that address.
Mrs. Viertel. Yes. I gave my house for this occasion. I didn't
have anything else to do with it except giving the house for the party.
Mr. Wheeler, Did you offer your house for other occasions ?
Mrs. Viertel. I may have. I don't remember, but that was — I re-
member it was a very large group, and I had to clean up afterward for
days.
Mr. Doyle. How would you describe the large group ? How many
people ?
Mrs. Viertel. There were hundreds there.
Mr. Doyle. 200, 500, 700 ?
Mrs. Viertel, I don't know, but just hundreds. I never saw so
many people in one house and the garden ; but hundredp, certainly.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5801
Mr. Wheeler. I have a reference that your former husband, Budd
Schulbeig, made a trip to the Soviet Union. Did you accompany him
on that trip ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. No. I didn't know him tlien.
Mr. Wheeler. Was that prior to your marriage ?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Wheeler. Back on the record.
Can you identify anyone else you knew to be a member of the Com-
munist Party i
Mrs. Viertel. I don't think so. I am sure I could have known ■
Mr. Gang. In other words, if the names were put to you they might
refresh your recollection ?
Mrs. Viertel. That is the only way.
Mr. Gang. If you want to do that, Bill, go ahead.
Mr. Wheeler. I don't think so, because most of the names that I
would mention have already been publicly identified.
]\Irs. Viertel. Yes. I was surprised when I read Budd's statement
of people that I didn't know in the paper. I have been surprised
steadily.
Mr. Wheeler. What led to your complete break with the Commu-
nist Party in 1945 ?
!Mrs. Viertel. Well, I really hadn't attended meetings regularly
at all, as you know, since 1940, but every now and then and so on ; but
it Avas impossible with my new marriage.
Mr. Gang. Fix that. "V^'liom did you marry ?
Mrs. Viertel. To Peter Viertel.
]Mr. Wheeler. When did you marry him?
Mrs. Viertel. In 1944.
Mr. Gang. Then tell what happened.
Mrs. ViERTELL. Then he was overseas, and I had a baby, and during
the time I was pregnant I lived at Malibu. I was very far away and
I simjjly dropped those contacts. It wasn't possible for me to even
see my friends any more unless they came to see me, which they did
occasionally, but I didn't go to meetings and I kind of officially
dropped out — not officially, but more or less dropped out. I do be-
lieve I went back to 1 or 2 meetings during the time I was pregnant.
Then after I had the baby I never returned to any meeting.
jNIy husband returned in 1945, and it was impossible for me to see
any of my old friends, even, after his return, because he was so vio-
lently anti-Communist ; not only in the large sense, but even against
the individuals who were that far left; and consequently I made new
friends, didn't even see the old friends again, and never — not socially
or in the party did I have the same contacts.
Mr. Wheeler. I have no further questions.
Mr. Gang. Any questions. Congressman Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. As I recall it, you had some kind of a break in 1940, but
in 1943 you evidently were gracious enough to the old group to have
hundreds of people use your garden?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes, that is all.
]\Ir. Doyle. The Communist group.
Mrs. Viertel, Certainly. That seems strange, but it isn't because —
it was for the newspaper, after all, and it was always folding. It
5802 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
never had enough money to go on, and so on ; so we would give a party
and make some money for it.
In 1943 I believe it was — I did go to groups from time to time, but
not — it wasn't regular. I was working and it wasn't the way it was.
Mr. Doyle. Was there ever a time when you felt that the teachings
of the Communist Party, as contrasted to the principles of our own
Nation, were inconsistent?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Tlie teachings, the things we learned were excellent ^
but we didn't learn Communist Party methods nor did we know what
the Communist Party was out to get.
Mr. Doyle. When did you learn that?
Mrs. Viertel. Oh, sloAvly, irrevocably it came over us, most of us^
I think. There wasn't one definite time I can say I realized at that
moment that it was an organization which we had no business belong-
ing to, because we didn't really understand its aims or its methods.
Mr. Doyle. How would you state what you ultimately learned that
the Communist Party was out to get, as you say ? What major things
would you refer to?
Mrs. Viertel. I suppose what we said of the capital press was partly
responsible. You can't help reading it in Time and every magazine^
every newspaper. When they said that the funds that we raised for
Spain were mishandled, well, this was a great blow, and I didn't be-
lieve it at the time. Slowly I realized we had no way of knowing what
happened to the money that we raised ; there was no real accounting ;
and I think you begin to suspect, or I began to suspect, first of all,.
Russia. The people who were running Russia were not, to my mind,
splendid citizens, clearly. I hated the hero worship of Stalin, and the
reverse now is equally unattractive. There were many things we
didn't pay any attention to because I — and I imagine many people felt
the same way — Russia could make all the mistakes they wanted, it
didn't matter. That was not our country. We were trying to improve
our own country. If it was a failure there, we hoped it wouldn't be.
The whole Socialist experiment was not our country. During the
trials I didn't even read about them. I said, "Suppose it is ghastly.
That has no bearing on America."
Mr. Doyle. But were you not trying to apply the Socialist doctrine
of the Soviet Union to our country ?
Mrs. Viertel. We were learning about it. There was certainly no
opportunity for application.
Mr. Doyle. But in theory you were trying to apply it as a Commu-
nist?
Mrs. Viertel. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. The Soviet Socialist state in theory, at least ?
Mrs. Viertel. No. It was just a Socialist state. We hoped America
would finally get^ — would finally become Socialist.
Mr. Gang. What about the democracy in the Communist Party?
How did it operate ? Was there any ?
Mrs. Viertel. It was pretty ghastly. That also was another disen-
chanting thing. As I said, when we were to have a little election or
voice "Yes" or "No" on something that had come dov\m — and I can't
remember the things any more — it w^as clear that we had no ^'oice.
Mr. Doyle. As a matter of practice within the Communist Party
during the years you were in it, was there applied democracy or ap-
plied democratic processes ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5803
Mrs. ViERTEL. Oh, yes : theoretically.
Mr. Gang. But actually? You are making it very difficult for us
here. Don't be so (inicky. Tell the facts.
Mrs. ViERTEL. No; it certainly wasn't in our little group. It wasn't.
Someone would take charge, and that would be it.
Mr. DoYLE. I am deliberately asking you a few questions to get the
benefit of your conclusions. You have had an unusual experience and
can be helpful to us in Congress in understanding it.
Mrs. YiERTEL. I was such an unimportant member. This is another
problem : that I wasn't in on the higher level.
Mr. DoYLE. But you were an intellectual in the Communist Party.
Mrs. YiERTEL. Yes; that is the only reason I got in, and for intel-
lectual reasons I think most of us got out, for the same accumulation of
them, not just one thing.
Mr. Doyle. As you know, the committee exists by authority of Con-
gress to learn in what way we can conclude means to recommend to
Congress different or additional legislation.
Should we modify, change, amend, or add to the present laws?
Have you any thought in that field? In other words, is Congress
meeting the problem so far as legislation is concerned ? If not, where-
in are we failing ?
Mr. Gang. May I ask, what you mentioned to me off the record in
that line, do you mean what laws could be passed to help prevent such
a vacuum for the young as existed in the 1930's when young people were
sucked into it ?
Mrs. YiERTEL. I don't think they need to be, frankly. I don't think
conditions are the same now. The young people I know now are not
interested remotely, and I think the times have changed, especially
in our country. There is no reason for it. There is no need to find
Mv. Doyle. Why did you come forward and volunteer to come be-
fore the committee ?
Mrs. YiERTEL. There are an awful lot of circumstances altogether.
I think probably I would just have let it go, because my life is pretty
busy just being a mother, you know; but they know about Peter, cer-
tainly
jNlr. Gang. But the point Mr. Doyle made is do you feel that you
want to tell the committee of Congress everything you know to help
them in legislating or not legislating on the problem ?
Mrs. YiERTEL. Yes, certainly; but whatever I know, I didn't be-
lieve before anything I could say would be of any help, because I
didn't know enough. I knew nothing new. I didn't know as much
as most people, so I didn't think it was urgent or interesting be-
fore.
Mr. Doyle. Let me ask one concluding question.
Off the record please, Mr. Reporter.
(Discussion off' the record.)
Mr. Doyle. Now, is the identification that we have previously men-
tioned true ?
Mrs. YiERTEL. Yes.
Mr. DoYLE. You heard Mr, Wheeler refer to your identification as
a member of the Communist Party as having been made by certain
persons ?
5804 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Was that identification correct?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Doyle. And true?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. I want to ask this : If in the future you learn of other
former Communists who come to the point where they wonder whether
or not they are welcome to come before the committee, will you make
it clear that they are welcome ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. I do believe everybody knows that they can.
Mr. DoYLE. You think that is generally known now ?
Mrs. ViERTEL. Yes.
Mr. DoYLE. Because we have that standing rule and invitation to
appear before the committee.
Mrs. ViERTEL. I think they often don't know where you are, pos-
rsibly.
Mr. DoYLE. That is true. They can always get in touch with Mr.
Wheeler.
Mrs. ViERTEL. I also want to state I am grateful indeed to Mr.
Wheeler and Mr. Doyle for letting me come and clear up whatever
I could.
Mr. Doyle. We want to thank you very much.
Mrs. ViERTEL. Thank you. I am sorry I was vague and not help-
iul.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 50 p. m., Wednesday, June 6, 1956, the executive
hearing of the witness was adjourned.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— Part 11
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 6, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los^ Angeles^ Calif.
executive session ^
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to call, at 3 p. m., in room 484 of the Statler Hotel, Los
Ajigeles, Calif ., Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle and
Donald L, Jackson, of California.
Staff member present : William A. Wheeler, investigator.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Ayeroff , will you rise, please, and be svrorn ?
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give to this sub-
committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth' so help you God ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH AYEROFF
Mr. Wheeler. Will you state your full name ?
Mr. Ayeroff. Joseph Ayeroff.
Mr. Wheeler. When and where were you born, Mr. Ayeroff ?
Mr. Ayeroff. New York City, August 16, 1911.
Mr. Wheeler. I see you are not represented by counsel.
Mr. Ayeroff. Yes.
Mr. Wheeler. You have that privilege if you so desire. Do you
wish to proceed without counsel ?
Mr. Ayeroff. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, that is perfectly satisfactory to you, Mr.
Ayeroff, to proceed without a lawyer ?
Mr. Ayeroff. If I need a lawyer, I can always get one.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you tell the committee of your educational
background ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I was born in New York City. We moved to Utah
when I was a year old. We farmed there, Sanpete County, until we
were about five.
We moved to Aurora. I attended public schools of Utah, Lincoln,
Nebr. ; Denver, Colo. ; the coal mining towns of Pennsylvania ; moved
1 Ordered released by the committee August 7, 1956.
5805
5806 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
back to New York ; moved up to upper New York ; attended the high
schools of New York City, and I attended the College of the City of
New York for 5 years.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you relate your employment since leaving
college ?
Mr. Ayeroff. Since leaving college I was a salesman for an import-
ing concern, Lavin & Lauer, at 225 Fifth Avenue, New York City.
That was immediately upon completion of college.
I came to California in 1933. I was in the employ of my uncle, the
Economy Printing Co., until I entered the armed services in 1942.
Upon completion of my military service, my brother and myself are
in the furniture and appliance business. We operate two stores ; one
at 1066 South La Cienega Boulevard, and the other in North Holly-
wood at 5716 Lankershim.
Mr. Wheeler. Wlien were you discharged from the Army ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I imagine about the end of 1945.
Mr. Wheeler. Where were you stationed while in the Army ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I was inducted at Azusa, which was at Riverside, and
I was stationed at Fort Worden, Wash., for a short period of time, and
the rest of the time I was stationed at the port of embarkation, San
Francisco, attached to the commanding general, doing special service
in the orientation department of the Army.
Mr. Wheeler. The committee in the past has received considerable
testimony regarding the techniques employed by the Communist Party
in infiltrating major political parties. We have testimony from for-
mer members of the Communist Party who have identified you as a
member of the Communist Party, and as having been instrumental in
the infiltration of a major political party. We desire to go into that-
First, I would like to ask you, have you been a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment, that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Wheeler. Do you know Mr. Louis Rosser ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Rosser, on Tuesday, January 15, 1952, identified
you as a member of the Communist Party. Was he correct in this
identification ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you acquainted with or have you ever known
Max Silver?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Silver testified before the committee in executive
session, and he likewise identified you as a member of the Commu-
nist Party. Was Mr. Silver correct?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr .Wheeler. While in the city of San Francisco, were you active
in the American Veterans Committee ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. Were you the head of chapter No. 1 of the American
Veterans Committee in San Francisco?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5807
Mr. Wheeler. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
in tlie Armed Forces ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
]\Ir. Wheeler. Are you familiar with a club called the Liberal
Club? This organization was functioning at New York City Col-
lege in 1931, at which time I believe you were attending New York
City College.
Mr, Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. Do you know Alice Orans ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
jNIr. Wheeler. Have you ever attended any Communist meetings
with Alice Orans ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you a member of the Henry Eaton Post of the
Abraham Lincoln Brigade ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. We have no record of you serving in the Loyalist
forces in Spain. Did you ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. Were you a member of the Young Communist
League ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. Our record shows that you participated in a number
of functions for youth sponsored by the Communist Party. It shows
that you were elected chairman of the second session of the American
Youth Congress at a meeting held at Siegal Hall. This was some
time ago.
Mr. Ayeroff. It must have been. I refuse to answer on the same
grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. Have you supported the Communist Party press, the
Daily People's World?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Wheeler. According to the People's World of December 30,
1949, Ayeroff Bros., 1066 South La Cienega, sent heartiest greetings
to the Daily People's World ; is that correct ?
Mr. Ayeroff. You are reading it there.
Mr. Wheeler. Was it correct or not? Did you send heartiest
greetings to the People's World ?
Mr. Ayeroff. I refuse to answer on the same ground.
Mr. Wheeler. You do have a store located at 1066 South La
Cienega ?
Mr. Ayeroff. Yes ; we do.
Mr. Wheeler. There are a number of references, Mr. Chairman, to
Ayeroff Bros., Joseph Ayeroff, and, in fact, to the whole family. I
can see no reason for pursuing this interrogation. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. 1 have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. I have no questions, Mr. Ayeroff.
Mr. Wheeler. I have nothing further.
Mr. Doyt.e. Mr. Ayeroff, thank you very much.
(Whereupon, at 3 :' 15 p. m., Wednesday, June 6, 1956, the executive
heai-ing of the witness was adjourned.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE.
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— Part 11
THURSDAY, JULY 5, 1956
United States House of Rjpresentatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
executive session ^
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 10 a. m., pursuant to notice, in room 227 of the House Office Build-
ing, Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle, of Cali-
fornia (presiding), and Donald L. Jackson, of California.
Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, counsel ; and Courtney
E, Owens, investigator.
Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will be in order.
Will you please rise and be sworn ? Do you solemnly swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you.
God?
Mr. HuBLEY. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN HUBLEY; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ARTHUR P. McNULTY
Mr. Tavenn:er. Will you state your name, please, Mr. Hubley ?
Mr. HuBLJEY. John Hubley.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify himself for the record ?
Mr. McNuLTY. My name is Arthur P. McNulty. I am from New
York City, and my office address is 101 West 57th Street, New York
City.
May I just ask one question preliminary? I do not know what the
requirements of a quorum are for the committee, and I believe it is
three.
Mr. Tavenner. I think that the chairman should announce the mem-
bers of the subcommittee.
Mr. Doyle. I was going to remark after the witness gave his name,
that by virtue of direction of the chairman of the full committee, a
subcommittee of three has been named to hold this hearing: Repre-
sentatives Donald L. Jackson, of California, Clyde Doyle, of Cali-
fornia, as subcommittee chairman, and Mr. Edwin E. Willis, of Louisi-
» Ordered released by the committee September 4, 1956.
5809
5810 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
ana. Two of the three members of the subcommittee being present,
there is a quorum of the subcommittee.
Mr, Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Hubley ?
Mr. HuBLET. I was born in Marinette, Wis., in 1914.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Hubley. In New York City.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in New York Cit}^ ?
Mr. Hubley. Approximately 4 or 5 months.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your oc-
cupation is?
Mr. Hubley. I am an artist, a film artist, a cartoonist, director of
animated cartoons, and producer of animated cartoon films.
Mr. Tavenner. As a producer, are you the head of a company, or
a corporation?
Mr. Hubley. I am head of a company called Story Board, Inc.
Mr. Tavenner. In what business is it engaged ?
Mr. Hubley. It is engaged in the production of animated film.
Mr. Tavenner, How long have you been the head of that company ?
Mr, Hubley, The company was formed about 2 years ago,
Mr, Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
your formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Hubley. I went to high school in Michigan, 1 year or, I believe,
1 or 2 years of college in Los Angeles, and 8 years of art school in
Los Angeles,
Mr. Tavenner. What school did you attend in Los Angeles?
Mr. Hubley, The Art Center School.
Mr. Tavenner, Wliat was the date of the completion of your formal
educational training in Los Angeles ?
Mr, Hubley, Approximately 1936.
Mr. Tavenner. Did vou serve in the Armed Forces of the United
States?
Mr, Hubley, Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner, During what period of time ?
Mr. Hubley. The period of 1942 to 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your em-
ployment was between 1936 and 1942?
Mr. Hubley. I was employed at the Walt Disney Studio as an art
director or what is known in our trade as a layout man,
Mr, Tavenner. Over what period of time were you so employed?
Mr. Hubley. From 1936 to 1941. From 1941 until 1942 I was em^^
ployed in the same capacity, by Screen Gems, Inc.
Mr. Tavenner. Where?
Mr. Hubley, In Hollywood.
Mr. Ta^^enner, On return from your service in the Armed Forces
in 1945, how were you employed?
Mr, Hubley. I was employed as a director, an artist in an organi-
zation called United Productions of America.
Mr. Ta-s^nner. That would be from 1945 until what date ?
Mr. Hubley. Until 1952.
Mr. TA^^ENNER, And since 1952, how have you been employed?
Mr, Hubley. I have been free lancing and I have been employed
by Story Board, Inc.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr, Hubley, this committee began its investigation
of Communist activities — that is, Communist infiltration into the
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5811
entertainment field — back in March 1951, and it has been engaged
constantly since that time in making investigations in that field.
It has come to the attention of the committee that there was a
group of artists, some of them being in the cartoonist field, and
being employed at Walt Disney Studios, who met as a group of Com-
munist Party members. Some of these homes in which the meetings
were held were said to be the homes of William Pomerance, Edward
Biberman, and others.
According to the information that came to the committee through
sworn testimony, it appeared that at some of these meetings the ques-
tion of the use of arts was fully discussed from the viewpoint of having
art to carry a particular message as distinguished from the practice
of art for art's sake.
Our purpose in calling you here today, as part of our investigation
into this field, is to inquire as to what knowledge you have, if any, of
sucli meetings. Let me ask you first. Were you acquainted with
Edward Biberman ?
Mr. HuBLEY. Well, in answer to your question, Mr. Tavenner, I
would like to state that I feel that in the area of politics and in the
area associations, workwise or social, that I do not feel personally
that your committee should ask me to reveal or speak on these matters,
either with my opinions or my associations.
Mr. TA^TNNER. By that do you mean that you decline to answer
the question ?
Mr. HuBLEY. Well, I would mean that I do not consider
Mr. Tavenner. You are expressing a reason why you would prefer
not to answer the question, but you have not clearly stated whether
or not you are merely raising an objection or whether you are actually
refusing to answer the question,
Mr. HuBLEY. Well, I am raising an objection to the line of ques-
tioning in the sense that I do not agree that it is a proper question
for a person such as myself to be asked.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that a substantive question
be put to the witness in order that we may clarify this matter.
Mr. Tavenner. My c{uestion was whether or not this witness knew
Edward Biberman. In view of the witness' statement, I think that
it is perfectly proper to direct that he answer.
Mr. Doyle. I might state this to the witness, that the committee
does not feel that in asking that question, that we are going into the
field of your political beliefs. Under Public Law 601, we are directed
by Congress to go into any field in which it appears that there is infil-
tration by Soviet communism, whether it is in art, music, literature,
government, or labor, or the legal profession.
Tliat is the basis of this question. We have not, and we will not,
go into your political beliefs. We cannot accept your objection as a
valid answer to the question.
So that my duty as subcommittee chairman is, in view of that fact,
to instruct you to answer the question, because an objection is not a
declining to answer, as we see it. I do instruct you to answer the
question, whatever your answer may be.
Mr, Hubley, Well, since the question was framed within the refer-
ence to political activities, and also associations, I choose to invoke my
constitutional privilege under the first amendment and under the
fifth amendment.
5812 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Doyle, This committee recognizes the invoking of those privi-
leges as entirely proper where conscientiously used.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, is it not the view of the committee
that it recognizes the fifth amendment may be a valid reason for
refusing to answer a question of that type, but the first amendment
would not be ?
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr, Tavenner. Have you at any time been acquainted with William
Pomerance ?
Mr, HuBLEY, May I consult counsel ?
Mr, Tavenner. Surely.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr, Htjbley. Since you, in your previous questioning have referred
to Mr. Pomerance in a certain connection, I decline on the same
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with David Hilberman?
Mr, Hubley, Yes ; I am,
Mr. Tavenner. Where was Hilberman employed during the period
you were employed by the Walt Disney Studios?
Mr. PItTBLEY. As I recall, Hilberman was employed at the Walt
Disney Studio around 1940.
Mr. McNuLTY. Mr. Chairman, may I just talk with the witness at
this time ?
Mr. Doyle. You may confer with your client at any time.
(Witness consulted his counsel. )
Mr. Tavenner. Was David Hilberman known to you to be a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hubley. This is a similar question, Mr. Counsel, to the other
one and I have already stated my intention, I think, rather clearly on
questions of this kind.
Mr. Doyle. We cannot accept that as a satisfactory answer to the
question. If you mean by your ansAver that you plead your consti-
■tutional privilege to this question, the same as you did the previous
one, then I suggest you make it clear that you plead your constitutional
privilege if that is consistent with your counsel's advice to you.
But, the form of your answer is not satisfactory to the committee ;
that is what I am saying to you.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Hubley. It is consistent with my counsel's advice and also with
my own conscience and advice that I invoke the rights under the con-
stitution in all questions of this kind.
Mr. Tavenner, Do you refuse to answer the question that I asked
you on the ground of the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Hubley. The first and fifth amendments,
Mr, Tavenner, I say, do you ?
Mr, Hubley. Yes,
Mr, Tavenner, I just wanted the record to show plainly what your
position is. Are you acquainted with Bernyce Polifka Fleury?
Mr, Hubley. Yes, sir. I worked with her from time to time in
various capacities in the studios.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she employed at the Walt Disney Studio at
the time that you were ?
Mr. Hubley. I honestly do not recall that she was employed at the
jDisney Studio.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5813
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall where she was employed ?
Mr. HuBLEY. I believe she worked at Warner Bros., and I believe
she worked at UPA.
Mr. Tavenxer. Was she knoAvn to you to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Hubley. I must decline ao:ain on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend any meeting of the Communist Party
at wliicli Ed Biberman and David Hilberman and Bernyce Fleury, or
any one of them was present ?
Mr. Hurley. I decline on the grounds of the first and fifth amend-
ments to discuss any kind of associations.
Mr. McNuLTY. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that if possible counsel
might make it somewhat definite, any meetings and what period he
had in mind ?
Mr. Tavenner. My question is whether you attended one at any
time ?
. Mr. McNuLTY. Then the answer will stand, I take it.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question now ?
Mr. HuBLEY. I decline on constitutional grounds to discuss this type
of question.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware of the existence of an organized
group of the Communist Party made up principally of artists from
the cartoonist and painters' field while you were in Hollywood prior
to your entry into the Armed Forces of the United States?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Hubley. Well, it is a question regarding politics and I will
stand on the same grounds as previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hubley. I would reply on the same grounds to that question
or a question of whether I was a Democrat, Republican, or anything
else.
Mr. Tavenner. I was afraid that that was your conception, prob-
ably, of the Communist Party, when you spoke of politics. It has
been demonstrated by testimony before this committee over long
periods of time, and it has been demonstrated by findings of fact by
the Congress of the United States, and by the Federal courts that the
Communist Party is not a political party in the sense that we under-
stand the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, for instatice,
to be political parties.
So, that may alter your decision as to whether or not you will
answer these questions if we make it plain to you it is not a political
party. The Communist Party has been held to be a conspiratorial
apparatus, and it is not a political party.
With that explanation, will you change your replies ?
Mr. Hubley. I think it is still a matter of opinion, legal or otherwise.
Mr. Tavenner. Then, because you consider it a political party the
same as a Democratic or Republican Party, you refuse to testify?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Hubley. I decline to answer that question on all grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. On the grounds previously asserted by you ?
Mr. Hubley. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
living in Hollywood?
Mr. Hubley. This is the same form of question, it seems to me, and
1 will invoke the constitutional privileges again.
5814 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Jackson, do you have any questions ?
Mr. Jackson. I think not, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. I have one.
We liave evidence from other witnesses who were at one time mem-
bers of the Communist conspiracy, artists and painters, and so forth^
from Hollywood and other places. At times their artistical interests
were directed in order to put across a certain message sponsored by
Soviet communism, rather than art for art's sake. That, of course, is
one of the purposes of this question, fundamentally to see if we can
get your help, as an artist, to understand the extent, if in your expe-
rience, communism tried or succeeded in directing your specialized
talents to put across a certain communistic message rather than art for
art's sake.
I am making that statement to you as one man to another because our
field as your Congressman is to try to discover ways in which that was
done, and from your experience if at all, learn how Congress may un-
dertake to more intelligently and efficiently legislate or handle the
problem.
That is not politics, it is art. I want to ask you very frankly, in
the field of art, if you can help us understand or learn in what way,
the Communists sought, through your talented ability to influence a
message other than just for art's sake? Is that a fair question to
you ?
Mr. HuBLEY. I have a lot of opinions about art as well as I am
sure all artists do and it is an endless discussion and I do not think
that this would serve purpose here. I would like to simply say in
answer to that, that I have 30 years of creative work and that I stand
on that.
It is public work, and anyone is welcome to examine it and to look
at it, and I stand on my work, and not on my opinions. My opinions
can change, and I have changed them many times, all through my life,
and I like the right we have to be able to change them. But the work
stands. I have no shame about it. If anyone wants to examine it, it
is there.
Mr. Doyle. Now, did you feel that any of your creative work was
the result of the infiltration or influence or the pressures or the pro-
mulgation of the Communist influence in Hollywood? Did you re-
produce any creative work in whole or in part as a result of any Com-
munist infiltration in your own consciousness ?
Mr. HuBLEY. My work has been my own work, and my own talent,
and my own opinions.
Mr. Doyle. Was that work influenced by Communist pressure
directly or indirectly ? Was your creative work a result of your opinion
which was shaped in whole or in part by the influence of communism
which you may have been surrounded in whole or in part?
Mr. HuBLEY. There are many influences on every person, and the
ones on me were many, and I do not know. Your question is not very
specific. As I told you, when you are discussing Communist ideas, I
do not believe it is the proper kind of a question here, and I have
declined to state opinions or otherwise in this area. That is on con-
stitutional grounds.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 5815
]Mr. Doyle. I am always disappointed as a Member of Congress and
a fello\A- citizen when a person sucli as you with particular creative
ability, does not take the opportunity to help your Congress under-
stand more in detail the extent to which communism has infiltrated in
your particular art or craft.
I am just stating that to you as one man to another. It is again a
case where I recognize a great creative ability, and of course, we would
not l)e calling you this morning if we did not have an idea, a rather
definite idea, that you could help us.
Mr. HriJLEY. Well, I would like to say, and it may be a lielp or not,
that this creative ability that you recognize can only flourish in a
climate of complete fi-eedom and complete free ability to explore and
to think and to experiment.
Mr. Doyle. We have abundant testimony by former active Com-
munists in your field, in the held of music and in the field of literature
that they do not have or did not experience, while they were members
of the Communist group, complete freedom. That is one of the things
that we are trying to understand, so that we can help protect our
Nation more thoroughly against the inhltration and the taking away
of complete freedom.
]Mr. Jacksox. J have several questions to ask to clear the record.
Of course, I think that there is an abundance of testimony that in-
dicates that anyone who is in the Communist Party as an artist had
absolutely no freedom, and he was in a mental philosophical strait-
jacket.
However, there is sworn testimony before the committee that you
were in fact a member of the Communist Party. Is that testimony
true or false ?
Mr. HuBLEY. I decline to answer the question.
jNIr. Jackson. The testimony also indicates that you attended closed
meetings of the Communist Party. Is that testimony true or false?
]Mr. HuBLEY. I decline to answer on the previous grounds.
Mr. Jacksox. Did you contribute your talents in any way to the
Communist Party or the Communist-front organizations?
Mr. HuBLEY. I decline to answer.
]\Ir. Jackson. For the reasons previously stated?
Mr. Ht^BLEY. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Did you contribute funds to the Communist Party,
directly or indirectly, or to any Communist-front organization?
Mr. HuBLEY. I decline to answer.
Mr. Jackson. Are you today a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Plt'BLEY. This question is again, I feel, the same kind of in-
fringement that the others were, and I invoke the privilege of the first
and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Jackson. I have no fui'ther questions, Mr. Chairman. But I
move the release of the testimony of the witness, subject to the will of
the full committee.
]Mr. DoYLE. Let the record so show.
Are there any other questions?
Mr. Tavenner. I have no other questions.
jNIr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Counsel, and the witness.
(Thereupon, at 12: 10 p. m., Thursday, July 5, 1956, the executive
] tearing of the witness adjourned.)
INDEX
INDIVIDUALS
Page-
Alland, William 5771
Altman, Mischa 5776-5782, 5785, 5787
Altman, Mrs. Mischa 5779, 5781, 5785-
Anderson, Betty. ( See Wilson, Elizabeth. )
Ayeroff, Joseph 5805-5807 (testimony)
Becker, Leon 5795-
Benton, Joan. (See Viertel, Virginia.)
Biberman, Edward 5811, 5813
Brooks, Arthur A., Jr 5769
Chodorov, Jerome 5794
Christlieb, Donald 5776, 5778, 5779, 5781, 5782, 5785-5788
Christlieb, Pearl (Mrs. Donald Christlieb) 5778, 5779, 5785
Clarke, Angela 5770
Davidson, Mike 5771
Davis, Frank 5794
Diamond, Muni 5770, 5771
Fielding, Ann (Mrs. Jerry Fielding) 5770
Fielding, Jerry 5769-5773 (testimony)
Fleury, Bernyce Polifka 5812, 5813
Gang, Martin 5789
Held, Benjamin 5769
Hilberman, David 5812, 5813
Hopkins, Pauline 5771
Hubley, John 5809-5815, (testimony)
Kahn, Gordon 5793
Koenig, Lester 5795
Lardner, Ring, Jr 5792, 5793
Lawson, John Howard 5778, 5780, 5794
McNulty, Arthur P 5809
Maltz, Albert 5792
Moore, Sam 577I
Mullen, Virginia 5771
Orans, Alice 5807
Ornitz, Sam 5793
Pomerance, William 5811, 5812
Po.ska, Judith 5775-5788 (testimony)
Rapf, Maurice 5793, 5794
Raymond, Judith 5770, 5771
Robinson, Jack 5770, 5771
Robinson, Mary (Mrs. Jack Robinson) 5770,5771
Rossen, Bob 5792
Rosser, Louis 5806
Schulberg, Budd 5790-5793, 5797, 5801
Schulberg, Sonia 5795, 5796-
Ship, Reuben 5770, 5771
Silver, Max 5806
Spivak, John L 5795, 5797-5799-
Stone, Gene 5771
Trumbo, Dalton 5792
Viertel, Peter 5801
Viertel, Virginia (Mrs. Peter Viertel; also known as Joan Benton )__ 57S9-5804
(testimony)
i
INDEX
Piige
Waxman, Stanley 5771
Wilson, Elizabeth (nee Anderson) 5794
Wolff, Bill 5770
Organizations
American Veterans Committee, San Francisco Chapter, No. 1 5806
American Youth Congress, Los Angeles 5807
City College of New York, Liberal Club__— 5807
Communist Party, California :
Hollywood :
Kadio Branch 5771
Sam Adams Club 5795
Ken (publication) 5798
Walt Disney Studios 5811, 5812
o
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