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I '.

HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY

GIFT OF THE

GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES

'^!Hy

HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY

DEPOSITED BY THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

INVESTIGATION OF C^lfttiftST INFILTRATION OF
GOVERNMENT— PART 5

HEARINGS

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAi\ ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF EEPRESEOTATIVES

EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGEESS

SECOND SESSION

FEBRUARY 28, 29, AND MARCH 1, 1956

Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INCLUDING INDEX)

UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
^''^^ WASHINGTON : 1956

•ci>i ^ ^AM

COMMITTEE OX UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES

United States House of Representatives

FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois

CLYDE DOYLE, California BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York

JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee DONALD L. JACKSON, California

EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Obio

Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk
n

CONTENTS

PART 3
February 14, 1956:

Testimony of— Pasd

James Edgar Gorham 3111

Arthur Stein 3136

Myer Harry Naigles 3152

February 15, 1956:
Testimony of —

Irving Richter 3165

Morris Levine 3181

Bertha Blair 3197

February 16, 1956:
Testimony of —

Henry Rhine 3205

Marcel S. Kistin 3222

Sylvia Soloff Steinberg 3231

PART 4
February 21, 1956:
Testimony of —

Joseph B. Rosison 3245

Martin Kurasch 3261

David Rein 3281

Allan R. Rosenberg 3300

February 23, 1956:
Testimony of —

Ruth Weyand (Perrv) 3309

Victor Perlo 3331

February 24, 1956:
Testimony of —

Lillian Kurasch (Mrs. Martin Kurasch) 3337

Jacob H. Krug 3356

PART 5

February 28, 1956:
Testimony of —

Selma Rein (Mrs. David Rein) 3377

Helen Roark Hill 3385

February 29, 1956:
Testimony of —

Lawrence Elkind 3395

Sidney Katz 3400

Julia Katz (Mrs. Sidney Katz) 3416

Robert N. Greenberg 3420

Robert R. EhrUch 3428

March 1, 1956:

Testimony of —

Lawrence Raymond LaVallee 3439

Nathan Witt 3448

Edwin S. Smith 3456

Samuel M . Koenigsberg 3485

Marie Prince 3496

Morton Friedman 3498

Index I

Public Law 601, T9th Congress

The legislation under Avhicli the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress (1946), chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :

Be it exacted hy the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Rule X

SEO. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES

• **«**•

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.

Rule XI

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES

* :): 4: :|t * 4: >|!

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.

(A) Un-American Activities.

(2) Tlie Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is antliorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda tliat is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attaclis
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any
necessary remedial legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.

RULES ADOPTED BY THE 84TH CONGRESS

House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955

* 4> * * * * *

Rule X

STANDING COMMITTEES

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress,
the following standing committees :

*******

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
*******

RlTLE XI

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES

*******

17. Committee on Un-American Activities.

(a) Un-American Activities.

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcom-
mittee is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (1) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United
States, (2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American
propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF
GOVERNMENT— PART 5

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 1956

United States House of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,

Washington^ D. O.

public hearing

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the caucus room, Old House Office
Building, Hon. Francis E. Walter (chairman) presiding.

Committee members present: Representatives Francis E. Walter,
of Pennsylvania (presiding) ; James B, Frazier, Jr., of Tennessee;
Edwin E. Willis, of Louisiana; Bernard W. Kearney, of New York;
and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.

Staff members present : Richard Arens, acting counsel, and Courtney
E. Owens, investigator.

The Chairman. The committee will be in order.

Will you call your first witness, Mr. Arens ?

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Selma Rein, please come forward. Please remain
standing and raise your right hand to be sworn.

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give sliall be the truth, the wdiole truth and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?

Mrs. Rein. I do.

TESTIMONY OF MES. SELMA REIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

JOSEPH FORER

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and
occupation.

Mrs. Rein. My name is Selma Rein, R-e-i-n, and I live at 5066
MacArthur Boulevard NIV., and I am a housewife.

Mr. Arens. Your husband's name, please?

Mrs. Rein. David Rein.

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Rein, are you appearing today in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?

Mrs. Rein. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Will counsel identif v himself, please ?

Mr. Forer. Joseph Forer, 711 14th Street NIY., Washington, D. C.

3377

3378 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Rein, will you please give us a very brief sketch
ol" your background, particularly your education prior to the time
that you became an adult?

Mrs. Rein. I \^'as graduated, of course, from grammar school, high
school, and Brooklyn College.

Mr. Arens. From what State do you come?

Mrs. Rein. I come from New York State.

Mr. Arens. Were you born there ?

Mrs. Rein. I was born in New York City. I took various graduate
courses in my field, and I guess that is about all I can say.

Mr. Arens. When did you complete your formal education?

Mrs. Rein. In June 1933.

Mr, Arens. Where did you complete your formal education?

Mrs. Rein. Brooklyn College, in New York City.

Mr. Arens. Did you receive a degree there ?

Mrs. Rein. Yes ; I did.

Mr. Arens. Kindly trace for us in chronological order the employ-
ment you have had since completing your formal education.

Mrs. Rein. The major part of my employment, from 1934 to 1937
I was on various WPA projects in the city of New York.

Mr. Arens. "\^niat was the nature of vour employment with the
WPA?

Mrs. Rein. I was a statistician and research worker, variously.

Then from 1937 to 1946 I was employed by the United States Gov-
ernment.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give us the various agencies of the
Government in which you were employed, beginning in 1937?

Mrs. Rein. The Department of Labor, the National Labor Rela-
tions Board.

JNIr. Arens. How long were you employed in the Department of
Labor ?

Mrs. Rein. I think about 7 months — I went there about March of
1937.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you employed in the Depart-
ment of Labor ?

Mrs. Rein. I was a statistical clerk.

Mr. Arens. Kindly proceed with your next employment and the
date on which it commenced.

Mrs. Rein. I had a very short temporary job with the Securities
and Exchange Commission. It miglit not have lasted more than a
month. I can't begin to remember what I did.

Mr. Arens. That was in 1937 likewise?

Mrs. Rein. Yes; or very early 1938; I am reallv not sure.

Mr. Arens. Kindly proceed to trace your employment.

Mrs. Rein. Then I was employed by the National Labor Relations
Board.

Mr. Arens. Beginning in 1938?

Mrs. Rein. Yes, until I believe 1940.

Mr. Arens. Please tell us in what capacity you were employed in
the National Labor Relations Board.

Mrs. Rein. I did research work and I had general classification as a
research worker, doing social science analysis or something like that.

Mr. Arens. You say that was until 1940 ?

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3379

Mr. Arens. Kindly proceed.

Mrs. Reix. In 1940 I had a very short period of employment with
the Social Security Board. I do not think that lasted more than a
month or two, also as an analyst or statistician, and then after that I
went to work for the Honse Committee on Interstate Migration. It
was under Representative Tolan. House Committee on Interstate
Migration, Select Committee.

Mr. Arexs. That was in 1940 likewise?

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your employment with the
Select Committee to Investigate the Interstate Migration of Destitute
Citizens ?

Mrs. Rein. I was a research worker and writer.

Mr. Arens. Who was the staff director ?

Mrs. Rein. The director was Robert Lamb.

Mr. Arens. Kindly proceed in chronological order, if you please.

Mrs. Rein. My next position was with the Farm Security Admin-
istration.

Mr. Arens. That was in 1941 ?

Mrs. Rein. It was either late 1940 or early 1941.

Mr. Arens. Just your best recollection, please.

Mrs, Rein. Yes, that is my best recollection.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you employed at the Farm Secu-
rity Administration ?

Mrs. Rein. Labor market analyst.

Mr. Arens. Kindly give us your next employment.

Mrs. Rein. It was the Social Security Board, which then became
part of the War Manpower Commission under the war program.

Mr. Arens. Did that begin in 1942 ?

Mrs. Rein. In 1942 ; yes.

Mr. Arens. How long were you so employed ?

Mrs. Rein. Until the fall of 1946.

Mr. Arens. Kindly trace your employment from then on.

INIrs. Rein. I had a position with a local of an A. F. of L. union, I
think it was, 1950 or 1951, for about 8 months.

Mr. Arens. "Wliat A. F. of L. union was that ?

Mrs. Rein. Local 471 of the hotel workers.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you employed ?

Mrs. Rein. Office secretary.

Mr. Arens. Where was that?

Mrs. Rein. 1215 R Street.

Mr. Arens. "Wliat happened between 1946 and 1950?

Mrs. Rein. I was not employed.

Mr. Arens. You left the Government in 1946; is that correct?

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Have you had any employment other than the A. F. of L.
union employment since you left the Government?

Mrs. Rein. Just a month's research employment on a part-time
basis.

Mr. Arens. For what organization ?

Mrs. Rein. A local economist here, Raymond Goldsmith is his
name.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity did you serve?

Mrs. Rein. Doing research in a library.

3380 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Research for Tpliat purpose ? What type of research ?

Mrs. Rein. Fiscal research, financial research.

Mr. Arens. For how long a period of time ?

Mrs. Rein. Just a month.

Mr. Arens. Do you recall the year ?

Mrs. Rein. 1955.

Mr. Arens. Have you had any other employment ?

Mrs. Rein. No.

Mr. Arens. Tell us before we revert to your first employment what
precipitated your disassociation from the the Government?

Mrs. Rein. I wanted to stay home and start raising a family.

Mr. Arens. Is that the only reason why ?

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Did you know anyone in the Agriculture Department
prior to the time that you actually assumed your job in the Farm Se-
curity Administration in 1941?

Mrs. Rein. I may have.

Mr. Arens. Whom did you laiow in the Farm Security Administra-
tion prior to the time that you went there ?

Mrs. Rein. I don't remember.

Mr. Arens. Did you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ?

Mrs. Rein. I did not know him before I went to work there.

Mr. Arens. Did you make his acquaintanceship in the Department
of Agriculture ?

Mrs. Rein. Yes, he was my boss.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time was he your boss ?

Mrs. Rein. All the period that I worked at Farm Security, which
I think may have been a year and a half.

Mr. Arens. Did you know him prior to the time you went to the
Department of Agriculture?

Mrs. Rein. No.

Mr. Arens. Did he have anything to do with your assignment in
the Department of Agriculture ?

Mrs. Rein. I don't understand the question.

Mr. Arens. Did he have anything to do with the procurement of
your job in the Department of Agriculture?

Mrs. Rein. I went to him to be interviewed and then I was hired.
I mean he was the head of that particular division.

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party, Mrs.
Rein?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer that question under my privilege
under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. What privilege tinder the fifth amendment ?

Mrs. Rein. As I understand it, the fifth amendment is part of the
Bill of Rights, and it grants American citizens the privilege not to
testify against themselves.

Mr. Arens. Do you feel that if you would tell this committee a
truthful answer as to whether or not you are now a member of the
Communist Party, you would be supplying information which could
be used against you in a criminal proceeding?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

;

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3381

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Rein. I abide by my refusal.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document bear-
ing a signature "Selma li. Rein," and ask you if you can identify that
signature ?

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Is that your signature ?

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

Mr. Arens. And that is to a document entitled, "United States
Department of Agriculture, Farm Security Administration, Mrs.
Selma R. Rein, dated June 28, 1941," is it not?

Mrs. Rein. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. You will observe on this particular document in the na-
ture of an affidavit, there is a statement that the affiant is not a
Communist — let me read it :

* * * is not a Communist or a member of any Nazi Bund organization and will
not become a Communist or a member of any Nazi Bund organization during any
time he may be paid from funds appropriated to tlie Department of Agriculture
by the Emergency Relief Appropriation Act, fiscal year 1941.

He does not advocate or hold membership in any organization that advocates
and will not advocate or hold membership in any organization that advocates
(during any time he may be paid from funds appropriated to the Department of
Agriculture by the Emergency Relief Appropriation Act, fiscal year 1941), the
overthrow of the Government of the United States.

Did you make such an affidavit?

Mrs. Rein. I did.

Mr. Arens. Was that affidavit you made true or was it false ?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer on the basis of my privilege under
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. In other words, if you told this committee the truth
as to whether or not you were signing a truthful affidavit in this
document as of June 28, 1941, you would be supplying information
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding; is that
correct ?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer this question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Cliairman, I respectfully suggest that this docu-
ment, which has been identified by the witness, be marked "Selma
Rein Exhibit No. 1" and be incorporated by reference in this record
for retention in the committee files.

The Chairman. So received.

Mr. Arens. Wlien you were with the National Labor Relations
Board, was your husband likewise employed there?

Mrs. Rein. Yes, he was.

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us whether or not, while you were em-
ployed by the National Labor Relations Board, a person by the name
of Helen Hill was likewise employed there ?

^ May I suggest the possibility that her name may have been at that
time Helen Himmelf arb ?

3382 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Did yon know Helen Himmelfarb ?

Mrs. Rein. I did'.

Mr. Arens. What was the nature of yonr acquaintanceship with
her ?

Mrs. Rein. We worked — both worked in the Division of Economic
Research at the NLRB.

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us whether or not you and Helen
Himmelfarb were co-members of any group or organization other
than as fellow employees in employment ?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer on the basis of my privilege under
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Did you' ever know a person by the name of Ruth
Weyand Perry?

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Tell us please, what was the nature of your acquaint-
anceship with her ?

Mrs. Rein. Well, I used to observe her around the halls of the
National Labor Relations Board, but I first met her during the war
when I was no longer employed at the National Labor Relations
Board.

Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your acquaintanceship ? How
did you happen to meet her ?

Mrs. Rein. My husband was stationed at Quantico and she used
to go down there and I used to go down there, and we met.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not she is or has been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you would tell this
committee whether or not to your certain knowledge Ruth Weyand
Perry is or has been a member of the Communist Party, you would
be supplying information which would be used against you in a crim-
inal proceeding ?

Mr. Forer. Mr. Chairman, I really don't think that type of ques-
tion is a proper question. It has been repeated several times.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question ?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Would you tell us whether or not, during your activities
and associations at the Labor Relations Board, you knew a person by
the name of Frank Donner ?

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person at the National Labor Rela-
tions Board by the name of Herbert Fuchs?

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

IMr. Arens. What was the nature of your acquaintanceship with
him?

Mrs. Rein. At the time I worked for the National Labor Relations
Board, I knew him very slightly.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3383

Mr. Arens. How about later on? Did you ever increase the inti-
macy of your acquaintanceship with him ?

Mrs. IvEiN. Later on we became good friends.

Mr. Arens. What occasioned that ?

Mrs. Rein. They lived around the corner from us.

Mr. Arens. Mr. and Mrs. Fuchs did ?

Mrs. Rein. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Is that the only basis upon which you became better
acquainted with the Fuchs' ?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer that on the basis of my privilege under
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
it is a fact, that in 1946 you served in a Communist Party cell in which
Mr. Herbert Fuchs was a member ?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer that for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Fuchs testified under oath before the House Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities that in 1946 you were a member of
a Communist Party cell of the National Labor Relations Board.

Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer that on the basis of my privilege
under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your employment at the Na-
tional Labor Relations Board, did you at any time have access to re-
stricted or confidential information ?

Mrs. Rein. No.

Mr. Arens. Do you have information respecting the transmission
of restricted or confidential information to any person not authorized
by law to receive the same?
"Mrs. Rein. No.

Mr. Arens. Have j^ou been tlie subject of a loyalty investigation ?

Mrs. Rein. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Arexs. Have you ever been identified with the American
League for Peace and Democracy ?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer under my privilege under the fiftli
amendment.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you were a member of the American League for Peace
and Democracy?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the Washington
Committee for Aid to China ?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny,
that vou were a member of the Washington Committee for Aid to
China?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. And that you were the membership chairman of the
Washington Committee for Aid to China ?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to anwser for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the Washington
Committee for Democratic Action ?

JVIrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

3384 COMIMTJNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny it
it is a fact, that you were a member of the Washington Committee
for Democratic Action?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the Southern Con-
ference for Human Welfare?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that you were identified and in close association with the
Southern Conference for Human Welfare ?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for same reason.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the Washinj^on
Committee for Consumer Protection?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that you were so identified with the Washington Committee
ior Consumer Protection?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. While you were in the employment of the Federal Gov-
ernment, were you ever interrogated officially respecting your loyalty
to this Government?

Mrs. Rein. Wlien I worked for War Manpower Commission, and
I forget the year, the date, almost the occasion, the personnel director
called me in at one point.

Mr. Arens. Wlio was he, please?

Mrs. Rein. A Mr. Barnett, I have forgotten his first name. He
said that — well, I am very vague about the whole thing.

He said some questions had been raised about my loyalty and
asked me some questions, and at the end of the hearing he said that it
was obvious that I was a loyal American citizen, and that was that.

Mr. ScHERER. When he asked you that question, were you a member
of the Communist Party ?

Mrs. Rein. I beg your pardon ?

Mr. ScHERER. When this personnel director said to you that ap-
parently you were a loyal American citizen, were you a member of
the Communist Party?

Mrs. Rein. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my
privilege under the fifth amendment ?

Mr. Scherer. Before he made that statement to you about your
being apparently a loyal American citizen, did he ask you whether
or not you were a member of the Communist Party ?

Mrs. Rein. I don't remember.

Mr. Scherer. You do not remember whether he asked you that
question ?

Mrs. Rein. No, I do not remember.

Mr. Scherer. That is all.

Mr. Arens. Do you have information respecting any Communist
Party activities of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, who was, as I under-
stand it, your supervisor in the Department. of Agriculture?

Mrs. Rein. I do not.

Mr. Arens. Do you Iniow whether or not he is a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mrs. Rein. I do not.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3385

Mr. Arens. Have you ever served in a Communist Party cell with
him?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Rein. I have not.

Mr. Arens, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this would
conclude the staff interrogation of this particular witness.

Mr. Frazier (presiding). Any questions ?

Mr. Willis. No questions.

Mr. Frazier. The witness may be excused.

Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, is Mrs.
Helen Hill.

Will you kindly remain standing and raise your right hand to be
sworn ?

Mr. Frazier. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and notliing but the
truth, so help you God ?

Mrs. Hill. 1 do.

TESTIMONY OF HELEN HILL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
CHARLES E. FORD

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mrs. Hill. My name is Helen Hill and I live in Arlington, Va.

Mr. Arens. The acoustics in this room are rather poor, and it will
be appreciated if you would keep your voice up so that your replies
to the questions can be clearly and distinctly heard by the committee.

Now, will you repeat that, please?

Mrs. Hill. Helen Hill, and I live in Arlington, Va., and I am a
housewife.

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?

Mrs. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?

Mrs. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Will counsel identify himself?

Mr. Ford. Charles E. Ford, 401 Third Street NW., Washington,
D. C.

Mr. Arens. "V^Hiat is your husband's full name, please ?

Mrs. Hill. May I consult?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. Jerry Hill.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give us your maiden name prior to
the time that you were married?

Mrs. Hill. May I consult with my attorney ?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. Roark.

Mr. Arens. R-o-a-r-k?

Mrs. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Have vou ever gone under any other name beside Helen
Hill or Helen Roark?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

3386 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer that question under the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Arens. Well, ma'am, you have gone under the name of Helen
Himmelf arb, have you not ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer that for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that until 1947 your husband's name was Himmelfarb and
you carried that name until it was changed by court order. That is
the fact, is it not ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. SciiERER. Mr. Chairman, I ask you to direct the witness to-
answer the question whether her name was changed by court action^
to Hill from Himmelfarb.

(Mr. Frazier, presiding.)

Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer.

Mr. Arens. The chairman has directed you to answer that question.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Sciierer. I think we should say to the witness that, in accord-
ance with the Supreme Court ruling, we do not accept that answer.
In the opinion at least of this member of the committee, failure to
answer that question might subject her to contempt.

Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, have you ever appeared before the House-
Committee on Un-American Activities before I

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer the question under the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. iVnENs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness her
ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer the question under the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a. fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that you did appear in executive session before the House
Un-American Activities Committee on Friday, May 14, 1954; that
thereafter you appeared before the House committee on July 28,.
1955.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amenchnent.

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I think that the witness should be-
directed to answer the question because, obviously, it could not in-
criminate her in answering that question. "\Ve do not accept her
answer.

Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer the question under the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, kindly give us, if you please, just a word
about your earl}^ life, where you wei'e born and your education.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under tlie fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.

Mrs. Hill. I stand by my previous answer.

Mr. Sciierer. I think the record should be made abundantly clear,
Mr. Chairman, that we do not accept her answer ; that we feel that is
an im]:)roper invocation of the fifth amendment, and that in her refusal
to answer where she was born and to give us some information as to

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3387

her educational and employment background, she is in all probability
in contempt of the committee.

Mr. Arens. The chairman has directed you to answer that question.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to ansAver under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Hill, do you know a person by the name of
H. C. Armstrong ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer that question.

Mr. Scherer, Before we go any further, Mr. Chairman, think we
should perhaps break down the questions that were asked by counsel.

May I put one question to the witness ?

Where were you born, witness?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I was born in Ephrata, Wash.

Mr. Arexs. Xow, kindly tell us where j^ou Avere educated?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I decline to ansAver that question under the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that the witness be directed to answer the ques-
tion, Mr. Chairman, AA*ith the admonition that the committee feels
that she cannot properly iiiA^oke the fifth amendment as to the question
of where she Avas educated.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to ansAver under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Frazier. You are directed to ansAA^er the question.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to ansAA'er under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Scherer. Where did you receive your elementary education?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. Bryn ]\IaAvr, Wash.

Mr. Scherer. Wliere?

Mrs. Hill. Bryn MaAvr, Wash.

Mr. Scherer. Bryn MaAvr, Wash. ?

Mrs. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Scherer. Where did you receiA^e your high school education?

(Witness confers Avith counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. Franklin High School, Seattle, Wash.

Mr. Scherer. Did you go to college ?

(Witness confers AA'ith counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. Where did you attend college?

(Witness confers Avith counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. The University of Washington.

Mr. Scherer. Did you go to any other colleges or schools other than
tlie University of Washington ?

(Witness confers Avith counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I attended Columbus LaAV School for a year.

Mr. Scherer. Columbus LaAV School, Columbus, Ohio ?

Mrs. Hill. Washington, D. C, and American University evening
classes.

Mr. Scherer. Have you given us all the educational institutions
you attended?

^Slrs. Hill. Yes, sir.

70811 — 56 — pt. 5 2

3388 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions.

Mr. x^RENS. What year did you complete your formal education?

( Witness confers with counsel. )

Mrs. Hill. I didn't gi^aduate, sir.

Mr. Arens. ^¥lien did you finish what schooling you did take?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I don't remember exactly, sir, but I believe it was in
1940 or 1941.

Mr. Arens. All right, and what did you do as soon as you com-
pleted your formal education ?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer the question under the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Arens. INIa'am, when you completed your formal education,
you became emj^loyed, did you not, in the State of Washington, in a
Washington federation ; is that correct ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Now, in May 14, 1954, in executive session before this
committee, you were asked this question by Mr. Kunzig :

Mrs. Hill, have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Hill. No ; I have not.

Did that transpire ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that on May 14, 1954, Mr. Kunzig, who was then counsel to
the committee, asked : "Have you ever been a member of the Commu-
nist Party ?" and you replied : "No ; I have not" ; that Mr. Kunzig then
posed this question: "Are you now a member of the Communist
Party?" and that you replied : "I am not."

Is that true?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Now, I put it to you as a fact that on that same day
Representative Jackson, who was a member of the House Committee
on Un-American Activities, posed this question to you :

Now, for the record again, and in order that it may be crystal clear — you cate-
gorically deny, under compulsion of your oath, that you are not now and have
never been a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Hill. Yes, sir ; I do.

Mr. Jackson. You deny you have ever attended a meeting of the Communist
Party?

Mrs. Hill. That is right. I deny that.

Mr. Jackson. You deny you have ever paid dues or assessments to the Com-
munist Party or carried a card showing membership in the Communist Party?

Mrs. Hill. Yes ; I deny that also.

Mr. Jackson. You deny categorically that you ever used the name of Bessie
Love?

Mrs. Hill. I deny that, too ; yes.

I ask you whether or not those questions and those answers were
given before the House Committee on Un-American Activities in
executive session Friday, May 14, 1954 ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Scherer. Witness, you mean to tell us that you will not now
tell this committee whether you told this committee, in 1954, the truth
when you were under oath ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNTVIENT 3389

Mr. SciiERER. I thiiilf she is properly invoking the fifth amendment,
because obviouslj^ she wants to avoid perjury.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly at this time apprehend that if you
told this committee truthfully whether or not the questions were
asked you and the answers were given by you, which 1 read to you a
few moments ago, under date of May 14, 1954, that you would be
supplying information which could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ^

Mi^. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, IVIr. Chairman, the w^itness be
directed and ordered to answer that question.

Mr. Frazier. You are directed to au-swer the question.

Mr. ScHERER. TSHiat w^as the date of her previous testimony ?

Mr. Arens. On two occasions. Congressman.

The first occasion was Friday, May 14, 1954.

Mr. ScHERER. What is the statute of limitations on perjury?

Mr. Arens. I am sorry; I cannot give you the precise answer on
that. I expect it would run about 5 years.

Mr. Scherer. Obviously the witness perjured herself before the
committee the last time and she is properly, therefore, invoking the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever worked for the National Labor Rela-
tions Board ?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Frazier. I direct you to answer the question.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, did you ever know a person by the name of
Ruth Weyand Perry ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Wliy ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you feel that if j'ou told this committee truthfully
whether or not you have ever laiown a person by the name of Ruth
Weyand Perry that you would be supplying information which could
be used against you in a criminal proceeding?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Now, a man by the name of H. C. Armstrong testified,
did he not, under oath in a loyalty proceeding, that he recruited you
into the Communist Party in the State of Washington?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr, Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that H. C. Armstrong testified under oath in a loyalty hearing
in the State of Washington that he recruited you into the Communist
Party and that you were a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Hill, the public record of this committee
shows that a INIr. Herbert Fuchs identified you as a member of the
Communist Party in the National Labor Relations Board in a period

3390 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

in the neighborhood of 1946. Was Mr. Fuchs lying or was he telling
the trnth?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. You have denied Communist Party membership, not-
withstanding the testimony of these people, have you not ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you, ma'am, a photostatic copy of a
document, standard form No. 47, captioned "Personnel Affidavit,"
with a signature Helen K. Hinnnelfarb, H-i-m-m-e-1-f-a-r-b, and ask
you to see if you can identify that signature for us?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that that is your signature as Helen K. Hinnnelfarb to this
personnel affidavit dated June 18, 1941, in which you state that you
had never been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly accommodate this committee by
signing your name?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mr. Arens. To this piece of paper which I lay before you with
that ballpoint pen.

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I decline to do that, sir, under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens, You feel that if you were to sign your name to that
piece of paper, you would be sup])lying information vv'-liich would be
used against you in a criminal proceeding?

JNIrs. Hill. "I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chainnan, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Frazier. I direct you to answer the question.

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Hill, you supplied the House Committee on
Un-American Activities a transcript of your loyalty hearing, did you
not?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. 1 decline to ansvrer under the fifth amenchnent.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you did supply to an investigator of the House Commit-
tee on Un-American Activities a transcript of your loyalty hearing,
in which you denied Communist Party membership.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

J\Ir. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mi's. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a document captioned "National
Labor Relations Board Application Form," and invite your attention
to the signature appearing at the end of the document, and ask you if
you can identify that signature.

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr, Arens, Is that your signature, Helen M, Eoark ?

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3391

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that that is your signature to this document ?

Mis. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever seen this document before ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Did you ever live at 1725 New Hampshire Avenue,
NW., Washington, D. C.

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that this document which I have just laid before you, cap-
tioned "National Labor Relations Board Application Form," was
signed by you as Helen M. Roark?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. PIiLL. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. And in this application form, you gave the references
of John M. Coffee, Harry Kimball, Ralph Gundlach, Nathan Fine,
and H. C. Armstrong; is that true?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you know any of these persons ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Tell this committee whether or not you have ever been
the subject of a loyalty investigation.

Mrs. PIiLL. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

]\lr. Arens. Did you lie to this committee under oath when you told
this committee j^ou had never been a member of the Communist Party ?

JSIrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Scherer. Did you tell the truth on your two previous appear-
ances ?

IMrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Kearney. Would you tell the committee if you had never been
a member of the Communist Party ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a document entitled United States
Civil Service Commission Statement of Federal Service of a person by
tlie name of Helen R. Hill, and ask you whether or not that document,
if you will kindly examine it, is a true and correct representation of
the employment v/hich you have had in the Federal Government?

Mrs. Hill. 1 decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. You feel that if you told this committee the truth as to
whether or not you can identify this document as containing the facts
reciting the employment which you had in the Federal Government,
yould would be supplying information which could be used against
you in a criminal proceeding?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
l)e ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Frazier. You are ordered to answer the question.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of David Rein?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?

Mrs. Hill. I declined.

3392 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been removetl from Federal service ?

Mrs. PIiLL. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Xow, ma'am, you were in the Federal employment until
just a year or so ago, were you not, mitil April 27, 1954?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. xIrens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that you were in the employment of the United States Gov-
ernment in the National Labor Kelations Board as Associate Chief
of the Statistical Analysis Branch until April 27, 1954 ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. ScHERER. "\Miat does the record show as to the reason for her
separation from Government service?

Mr. Arens. The record shows that the employee was suspended from
duty in the interest of national security.

Mr. ScuERER. Was that the result of the present security program,
counsel ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Scherer. It is obvious that this program works.

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell this committee now the organizations with,
which 3^ou are presently associated.

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Are there any organizations with which you are pres-
ently identified concerning which you can tell this committee, without
supplying information which could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ?

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

(Mr, Walter, presiding.)

Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Kearney. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?

(Witness confers with counsel.)

Mrs. Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, in view of the course of this particular
proceeding in which the witness has failed and refused to even tell
the committee whether or not she was in appearance before this com-
mittee on a prior occasion, I respectfully suggest that the transcript
of the proceedings of May 14, 1954 of the House Committee on Un-
American Activities be incorporated in this record which is being
made today.

The Chairman. By reference.

Mr. Arens. By reference is what I meant.

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. In view of the testimony, Mr. Chairman, I do not
think that the committee has any other alternative except to refer
the transcripts of the testimony of all three hearings in which this
witness appeared before the committee to the Department of Justice
to determine whether or not perjury has been committed.

The Chairman. We will determine that at the proper time.

Proceed.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3393

Mr. Arens Mr. Chairman, we have covered every point with this
witness on which there was a possibility of eliciting information

1 suggest It would be impossible to go any further because we get
no mtormation whatsoever. ^

The Chairman. Any questions?

Mr. Frazier. No questions.

The Chairman. The witness is excused.

The committee is adjourned, to meet tomorrow morning at ten
o clock. ^

(Whereupon at 11 a. m., Tuesday, February 28, 1956, the subcom-
mittee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a. m., Wednesday, February 29
lyoD.) J f

INVESTIGATION OF C0M3IUNIST INFILTRATION OF
G0VERN3IENT— PART 5

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 29, 1956

United States House of RErRESEXTATm:s,

Subcommittee of the
Committee ox Ux-A:jiericax Activities,

Washington^ D. C.

Public Hearixg

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 10 : 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the caucus room, Old House Office
Building, Hon. Francis E. Walter (chairman) presiding.

Committee members present: Representatives Francis E. Walter,
of Pennsylvania, Bernard W. Kearney, of New York, and Clj' de Doyle,
of California.

Staff members present: Richard Arens, acting counsel, and Court-
ney E. Owens, investigator.

The Chairman. The committee will come to order.

Mr. Arens, call j'our witness.

Mr. Arex^s. If you please, sir, Mr. Lawrence Elkind, will you
kindly come forward?

Please remain standing and raise your right hand to be sworn.

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. Elkixd. I do,

TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE ELKIND, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

lEA GOLLOBIN

Mr. Arexs. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

^Ir. Elkind. The name is Lawrence Elkind. The residence is in
New York, and the occupation is engineer.

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Elkind, are you appearing today in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?

Mr. Elkixd. Yes.

Mr. Arexs. Are you represented by counsel ?

Mr. Elkixd. lam.

Mr. Arexs. Will counsel kindly identify himself?

Mr. Gollobix. Ira G-o-l-l-o-b-i-n, New York City, X. Y.

Mr. Arexs, Mr, Elkind, you have, in the course of the last few days,,
appeared in an executive session before the committee, have you not?

3395

3396 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Elkind. About 2 weeks ago.

Mr. Arens. In view of the testimony which was taken then on a
number of items, it will not be necessary for us to go into as much
detail in this particular session as we would normally go into. Would
you therefore give us as briefly as is practicable, a summary of your
early life, education, background, and employment?

Mr. Elkind. I was born in Paterson, N. J. I went to public schools
and high school and to college, Eutgers University, for a short while,
and had additional courses in the City College, Columbia, and In-
ternational Correspondence courses. I started to work about 1924, or
thereabouts, as far as I can recall, as a draftsman, estimator, in vari-
ous iron-fabricating shops.

Mr. Arens. Wlien did you engage in this employment you are tell-
ing us about now ? Date it, please.

Mr. Elkind. I am talking about the period 1923-24 to about 1930-
31, or thereabouts.

Mr. Arens. In 1930 or 1931, did you become associated with the
Federal Government in some capacity?

Mr. Elkind. No.

Mr. Arens. Move us up to that date, if you please, sir.

Mr. Elkind. I was unemplo3^ed for a period of about a year, or a
year and a half, or 2 years, there ; and I became associated with the
Federal Coordinator of Transportation in New York City.

Mr. Arens. Was that employment the early part of 1934 ?

Mr. Elkind. The early part of 1934. I remained, approximately,
in New York for a period of about 8 to 9 months. The overall total
employment was about, at most, a year, at which time I resigned.
Then I went to work on a works project.

Mr. Arens. In New York City?

Mr. Elkind. In New York Cily.

Mr. Arens. In 1935 ?

Mr. Elkind. Yes, I believe it was 1935. That was for the depart-
ment of water supply, gas and electricity.

Mr. Arens. And you remained there until about 1937; is that
correct ?

Mr. Elkind. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Then in 1937 you became a consulting engineer?

Mr. Elkind. No, I didn't become a consulting engineer. I went
to work as a draftsman for a private outfit.

Mr. Arens. Was that a consulting engineering outfit ?

Mr. Elkind. I don't think they are consulting engineers.

Mr. Arens. Let us proceed with your employment.

Mr. Elkind. In the latter part of 1938, I went to work for the
Public Works Administration, I believe, as assistant engineer — that
was in New York, too — and I was there until about the latter part of
1939, when I went to work for the Navy Department, Brooklyn, N. Y.,
as a draftsman. And I was there until about the latter part of 1940,
when I resigned. Since then I have been with private employers.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Elkind, do you know or have you ever known a
person by the name of James E. Gorham, G-o-r-h-a-m ?

Mr. Elkind. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Why?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Elkind. I decline to disclose the reasons on wliich I claim it.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3397

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee the truth, as to whether or not you have ever known James E.
Gorham, you would be supplying information which could be used
against you in a criminal proceeding ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Elkind. I still decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question, stating the basis for
his refusal to answer the question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

Mr. Elkind. It is possible that it might.

Mr. Arexs. Mr. James Gorham testified under oath before the
House Committee on Un-American Activities several days ago to the
effect that while you were employed in the office of the Federal Coord-
inator of Transportation, a Government agency in New York City,
you were, to his certain knowledge, a member of the Communist Party.
Was Mr. Gorham lying or was Mr. Gorham telling the truth ?

Mr. Elkind. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Elkind. No.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party in 1947 ?

Mr. Elkind. I would decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party a year ago ?

Mr. Elkind. I would decline to ansAver that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 6 months
ago?

Mr. Elkind. The same reason.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party yesterday ?

Mr. Elkind. Xo.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 1 month
ago?

Mr. Elkind. Same reason. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party a week
ago?

Mr. Elkind. No.

Mr, Aeens. AYere you a member of the Communist Party 2 weeks
ago?

Mr. Elkind. No.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party on Feb-
ruary 15, 1956, when you appeared in executive session before this
committee ?

Mr. Elkind. No.

INIr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party on Feb-
ruary 1,1956?

Mr. Elkind. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party on Janu-
:ary 15, 1956?

(Mr. Edwin E. Willis entered the hearing room at this point.)

Mr. Elkind. I decline to answer that question.

3398 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party on Janu-
ary 1,1956?

Mr. Elkind. I decline for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Are you at the present time under Communist disci-
pline ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Elkind. No.

Mr. Arens. Have you engaged in Communist activities during the
course of the last month ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Elkind. No.

Mr. Arens. Have you, to your knowledge, ever been the subject of
a loyalty investigation ?

Mr. Elkind. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taken a loyalty oath ?

Mr. Elkind. I don't believe so, but I don't recall.

Mr. Arens. Did you, in the course of j^our service in the navy yard
or in the Office of the Federal Coordinator or in any Federal employ-
ment belong to any Communist Party cell consisting of employees of
the Federal Government ?

Mr. Elkind. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Arens, I wonder if I could interrupt here for a
minute ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kearney. You know, it is very amazing to me, Mr. Witness,
tracing back these various questions as to when you were not a member
of the Communist Party. For instance, "Were you a member of the
Communist Party 2 weeks ago ? " I was wondering whether you would
tell the committee, without going back day by day or week by week,
what the last date was that you were not a member of the Communist
Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Elkind. I respectfully submit that I have to stand on my pre-
vious answer to Mr. Arens.

Mr. Kearney. In other words, do you mean that you would rather
have counsel go backward day by day in order to find out what the
last date was ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Elkind. Mr. Arens has questioned me on this, and I believe that
he has my answer. I would hold to that answer.

Mr. Kearney. I do not hear you.

Mr. Elkind. I am sorry. I respectfully submit that I hold to my
previous answer.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person or have you known a person by
the name of Louis Lehrman, L-e-h-r-m-a-n- ?

Mr. Elkind. I respectfully decline on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Arens. Have you always gone under the name of Lawrence
Elkind, or have you at any time used another name ?

Mr. Elkind. I would decline to answer that on the same reasons
as previously given.

Mr. Arens. Do you tell this committee, then, that you honestly ap-
prehend that if you would answer the question as to whether or not

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3399

jou have gone under some otlier name, you would be supplying infor-
mation which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Elkind. It is possible it might, but I respectfully decline.

Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you known a person by the name
of Albert Blumberg ?

Mv. Elktxd. I respectfully decline to answer for the same reason.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person or have you known a person by
the name of Eleanor Nelson ?

Mr. Elkind. I respectfully decline to answer that on the basis of
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person or have you known a person by
the name of Herxry Rhine, R-h-i-n-e ?

Mr. Elkind. I respectfully decline to answer that on the basis of
the fifth amendment.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, this completes the staff inquiry of this
particular witness.

The Chairman. Are there any questions ?

Mr. Doyle. May I ask one question, please ?

You have stated that you are not now a member of the Communist
Party. You have answered the question asked by counsel stating that
you are not under Communist Party discipline. Is that correct?

Mr. Elkind. That is correct.

Mr. Doyle, Therefore, I assume that as an American citizen you
at sometime came to the conclusion that there was nothing in the
Communist Party that you could later hold to, although there
is no inference that you ever were, by reason of your answer, I
am granting that. This committee is interested in ascertaining ways
and means by which legislation by Congress could be improved or
changed, looking to the security of our own Nation against any form
of subversive activity or totalitarian subversive propaganda which
might be dangerous to our country. That is our duty under Public
Law 601. Are you not in a position, therefore, to answer this question,
in view of the fact that you are not under Communist discipline, and
are not now a member of the Communist Party : What does a person
do to get out of the Communist Party? What are the mechanics?
Do they send a letter to the Communist Party ? Do they send a notice
that there will be no more dues paid? In asking you that question,
sir, may I just state this: I am not asking it to try to trap you or to
lead you into a long discourse. But will you help your Congress
understand that one phase, tliat one problem? What does a Com-
munist do to get out of the party, to terminate his affiliation with the
Communist Party? Is a notice sent? Is any communication sent?
How do you dissolve the relationship?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
. Mr. Elkind. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the basis of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Doyle. That is all, Mr, Chairman.

The Cti.mrman. The witness is excused.

Call your next witness.

Mr. Arens, The next witness will be Mr. Sidney Katz, K-a-t-z.

3400 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

The Chairman. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?

Mr. Katz. I do.

TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY KATZ, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HARRY I. RAND

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Katz. My name is Sidney Katz. I reside in New York City.
I am engaged in administrative and public relations work.

Mr. Arens. For what firm ?

Mr. Katz. I work for a private organization — for a religious insti-
tution at this time.

Mr. Arens. What is the name of the organization ?

Mr. Katz. The Park Avenue Synagogue.

Mr. Arens. Are ^''ou appearing today, Mr. Katz, in response to a
subpena which was served upon you ?

Mr. Katz. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel?

Mr. Katz. I am. sir.

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself ?

Mr. Rand. Harry I. liand, Wyatt Building, Washington, D. C.

Mr. Arens. Will you kindly give us a thumbnail sketch of your
background, where you were born, when, a word about your education,.,
in chronological order?

Mr. Katz. I was born on the upper East Side of New York City,
1908. I was educated in the public schools of New York City, ele-
mentary and high schools, and attended New York University and
received a college degree from NYU.

Mr. Apjens. What year was that?

Mr. Katz. 1931. I also attended Hebrew Union College School for ■
teachers at Temple Emanuel for about 2 years, somewhere in that -
period, 1929-31.

Is that what you want to know ?

Mr. Arens. Does that complete your formal education?

Mr. Katz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. If you will, kindly give us in like manner a brief
chronological sketch of the employment you have engaged in since
completing your formal education and became self-sufficient.

Mr. Katz. Until I worked for the Government, after I got out of
college, most of my employment consisted of working for my father's
business. He had a manufacturing business of ladies underwear.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity did you work there?

Mr. Kait;. Everything from sweeping the floors to salesman.

Mr. Arens. What date did you first commence your employment
with the Government, in what agency and in what capacity?

Mr. Katz. In the summer of 1935, to the best of my recollection,
for a two-year period with the Works Progress Administration in
Washington, D. C.

Mr. Arens. And in what capacity did you serve ?

Mr. Katz. I don't recall the precise title, but I believe it was some- -
thine; like statistician.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3401

Mr. Arens. Let us proceed from there.

Mr. Rand. May I interject, Mr. Arens ?

I think there was some prior employment with the Works Project
employment.

Mr. Katz. No, that wasn't WPA. It was a quasi relief project
somewhere a year or two before Federal employment in Washington
in New York City. It was called CW or something like that. I am
not very sure on that.

Mr. Arens. Let us proceed, then, to 1937.

Mr. Katz. I worked for the CIO from 1937 to 1945.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?

Mr. Katz. I was the executive secretary- treasurer for the Mary-
land and District of Columbia Industrial LTnion Council.

Mr. Arens. Were you headquartered in Washington ?

Mr. Katz. The better part of that time I was, sir. The last couple
of years we had headquarters in both Washington and Baltimore
City, and I think toward the end of my employment there, the last
year or so, I was exclusively in Baltimore City, as I recall.

Mr. Arens. ^-Vnio was your immediate superior ?

Mr. KLvTz. There were four immediate superiors. That is, at four
different periods, not at the same time.

Mr. Arens. Between 1937 and 1945. I understand.

Mr. Katz. Do you want me to name those for you ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Katz. John T. Jones was the first. The second was either Boyd
Peyton or George Meyers. I don't remember at this point which came
first. But it was both Boyd Peyton and George Meyers, and the final
one was Ulysses Dedominicis, D-e-d-o-m-i-n-i-c-i-s, I think.

Mr. Arens. We will come back to a discussion of this occupation
later on. We are trying to get the skeleton outline now. Pick it
up in 1945, if you please.

Mr. Ivatz. Subsequent to employment with the CIO, I worked for
the American Jewish Congress.

Mr. Arens. Did that employment begin in 1945 or 1946 ?

Mr.IvATz. 1945.

Mr. Aren. Did that immediately succeed your employment with
the CIO?

Mr. Katz. That was my next immediate job. There may have been
a hiatus of a month or two, but I don't know. It was my next
employment.

Mr. Arens. Where were you engaged with the American Jewish
Congress ?

Mr. Kat2. Where? In what location ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Katz. New York City.

Mr. Arens. i^nd in what capacity ?

Mr. Katz. I had two capacities at that time.

One was with the commission on law and social action, in which
I had the social action, not the law, part of it. Then I was also
the executive secretary, or maybe it was called executive director,
I don't recall, for tlie Brooklyn division, in the last jenr or so of my
employment with tlie xlmerican Jewish Congress.

Mr. Arens. How long did that employment last ?

Mr. Katz. Three years.

3402 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. That takes you up to 1948, is that correct ?

Mr. Katz. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Who was your immediate superior or superiors at the
American Jewisli Congress ?

(Mr. Kearney left the hearing room at this point. )

Mr. Katz. Well, there were two staff superiors. One was Will
Maslow, who was and is now, I believe, the director of that.
M-a-s-1-o-w.

My. Arens. Did he employ you ?

Mr. Katz. Do you mean did he make the decision to employ me?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Katz. I don't know. I believe he was in on the decision to
employ me. I think there were probably 2 or 3 others at the time
involved. Another was Rabbi Shepherd Baum.

Mr. xVrens. Would you kindly proceed with your next employment?

Mr. Katz. I did not want to interrupt you. Rabbi Shepherd Baum,
was the next person who was my superior.

Mr. Arens. If you will proceed with your next employment, we
may come back and have some questions with reference to this employ-
ment later on.

Mr. Katz. I worked for a 2 or 3 month period for the Wallace
campaign in one of their congressional districts in Brooklyn.

Mr. Arens. And that was in 1948 ?

Mr. IvATz. Yes, in the 1948 Presidential election.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity did you serve ?

]\Ir. Katz. Something like a campaign manager. I don't know
whether it was precisely that or not.

Mr. Arens. Was that for the Progressive Party or was it for Wallace
or some committee for Wallace?

Mr. Katz. If you press me on that, I wouldn't know how to answer
it precisely, whether it was part and parcel of the Wallace campaign.
Whether it was a committee for Wallace or a committee of Brooklyn
for Wallace, I don't know.

Mr. Arens. You were just a promoter of Wallace's candidacy, is
that correct ?

Mr. Katz. Not merely Wallace, but Wallace and Taylor and the
whole ticket in that area that I was involved in.

Mr. Arens. Was the American Labor Party involved in that ?

Mr. Katz. They were.

]Mr. Arens. Was your employment under the American Labor Party,
or was it under the Wallace campaign ?

Mr. Katz. It was not under the American Labor Party. That much
I am sure of.

Mr. Arens. What supervision of your activities, if any, was by the
American Labor Party in Brooklyn?

jNIr. Katz. Well, I have a hunch there was hardly any supervision
of any kind by anybody.

Mr. Arens. May I refer back to the American Jewish Congress for
a moment ? Did you know a person by the name of Joseph Robison ?

Mr. Katz. I did, sir.

Mr. Arens. Was he employed at the American Jewish Congress
concurrently with your employment ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) •

COM]VIUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3403

Mr. IvATz. He was that, sir. At least, I am reasonably sure that he
was part of the time that I was there.

Mr. Aeexs. And did he likewise work substantially in the same
capacity that you worked in, promoting law and social action or what-
ever the title was ?

Mr. Katz. I think that in one respect the answer to that would be
*'Yes," and in another it would be "Xo."' I don't recall working with
hmi on any specific project. I don't believe I ever worked with him on
any particular project.

Mr. Arexs. We have completed this period in your life in which
you were active in the Wallace campaign in Brooklvn. That was in
1948.

Mr. Katz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Xow kindly proceed from there.

Mr. IvATZ. Well, my next was a misadventure in the woodworking
business. That was almost 2 years.

Mr. Arexs. Just a word about that, please.

Mr. IvATz. I just tried the business of being an entrepreneur, and it
didn't work out at all.

Mr. Arex^s. You had your own business i-inuiing a woodworking
place ?

Mr. IvATz. That is correct.

Mr. Arexs. And that lasted for 2 years i

Mr. Katz. Not quite, but close on to it.

Mr. Arexs. That brings us up to late 1949, is that correct \

Mr. Katz. No, sir, late 1950.

Mr. Arexs. Proceed please.

Mr. Katz. I then secured emploj'ment at the American Financial &
Development Corp. for Isreal, the organization that sells or sold the
State of Israel bonds.

^Mr. Arexs. Did you know a person there by the name of Martin
Kurasch \

Mr. Katz. I had some contact with him, sir ; I did.

Mr. Arens. Do you know him now ?

Mr. Katz. If I saw him ?

Mr. Arexs. Yes.

Mr. Katz. I sure would.

Mr. Arex's. Let us have the name of that organization again, very
clearly, if you please.

Mr. Katz, Well, I may be wrong on that. It was called, I think,
the American Financial & Development Corp. for Israel. In effect,
it was the corporation headed by Mr. Morgenthau, I think, at that
time, promoting the sale of State of Israel bonds in the United States
of America.

Mr. Arexs. How long did you engage in that employment?

Mr. Katz. About a year and a half.

Mr. Arexs. Would' that take us from 1950 to about 1952?

Mr. Katz. Do you mind if I pause a moment? I wrote something
out on that to straighten myself out. Do yoti mind ?

Mr. Arex's. Go right ahead.

Mr, Katz. I figure it took me to the late spring or early summer
of 1952. Is that what you have ?

70811 — 56 — pt. 5 3

3404 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Yes. "WTiat was your particular job with the American
Financial & Development Corp. for Israel ?

Mr. Katz. I helped promote the sale of bonds by encouraginjr com-
inunit;y responsiveness, particularly in synagogues, to the purchase
of the State of Israel bonds.

Mr. Arens. Was Mr. Kurasch employed there at the same time you
were ? Were you and he fellow employees at any time ?

Mr. Katz. Yes ; that is how I know hmi.

Mr. Arens. Did he precede you from the standpoint of service in
the employment there?

Mr. Katz. That I do not know sir.

Mr. Arens. Was he there when you got your job ?

Mr. Katz. I don't know. I truthfully don't know. You can check
my record. I know I got there shortly after the Jewish high holidays,
in 1950. I don't know when he got tliere.

Mr. Arens. Who was your immediate superior at that Corporation ?

Mr. Katz. Leo R-u-t-s-t-e-i-n.

Mr. Arens. Is he still there ?

Mr. Katz. No, sir ; I know that he is not there.

Mr. Arens. Did Kurasch have anything to do with procuring your
job at this corporation?

Mr. Katz. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Now, let us proceed to your next employment, Mr.
Katz.

Mr. Katz. I then worked for the American Association for Jewish
Education.

That began in December of 1952, and it ran through the late winter
or early spring of 1953.

Mr. Arens. AYliat was your job there?

Mr. Katz. Well, that was primarily, I would say, fund-raising and
public relations. It was mainly centered ai-ound organizing a dinner
to sponsor and encourage Jewish religious education in the United
Stages.

Mr. Arens. "Wliat did you do ?

Mr. Katz, I helped raise the funds in connection with the annual
dinner that they had that particular year.

Mr. Arens. How did you raise the funds? Did you make speeches
or did you write periodicals? What was your actual function?

Mr. Katz. Well, you know, a fund-raiser doesn't raise funds. He
organizes others to do it. In other words, I don't go out and say to
you, "I think you ought to contribute," but I ask you, "Maj^be you can
help this committee raise its funds from among your confac'^s.'' Wliat
you do is, you meet with people who are already interested in the cause
of Jewish religious education and you request them to invite their
friends who are similarly interested.

Mr. Arens. Did you travel over the country in the pursuit of this?

Mr. Katz. No. sir ; I never traveled past Coney Island.

Mr. Arens. Then all of your activities in raising money centered
in Brooklyn or Manhattan, is that correct?

Mr. Katz. Yes; it was for a national purpose, but it was done in
the city of New York.

Mr. Arens. Now will you kindly take us on to the next assignment.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3405

Mr. Katz. That was with the East Flatbush Jewish Community
Center in Brooklyn, N. Y. That was in the early spring of 1953
through the fall of 1954.

Mr. Arens. What was your job there?

Mr. Katz. I was executive director of the synagogue.

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us, without too much detail just what
you did as executive director of the synagogue ?

Mr. Katz. One of the main things I did was to help build up the
attendance at the religious school. That was an important problem
there. I helped promote the sale or, rather, the membership in the
synagogue, and the financing of it through encouraging attendance
at high holiday services.

Mr. Arens. Was your assignment of a religious nature or an admin-
istrative nature ? I have difficulty comprehending what you did.

Mr. Katz. It is a matter of construction of what I did rather than
what I did, how you construe what I did. In other words, it was ad-
ministrative, directed towards encouraging either religion or religious
education, depending on the type of activity I may have been en-
gaged in.

Mr. Arens. You were not a man who would be, as we say, of the
cloth, is that correct ?

Mr. Katz. No, sir; definitely not. In the Jewish religion, there is
no distinction of that kind. We do have rabbis, of course, but we are
all equal before God, and we all have that same spiritual responsibility.

Mr. Arens. What was your next assignment ?

Mr. Katz. It was with my current employers, the Park Avenue
Synagogue.

Mr. Arens. When did that employment begin ?

Mr. Katz. In the fall, shortly after the high holidays of 1954,
through and including the present moment.

Mr. Arens. Give us substantially the same pattern or description
of the work that you engage in now.

Mr. Katz. It is a problem of administering a very large synagogue,
being concerned with all its financial and administrative problems,
assisting its programing of its activities of the affiliated organizations,
and concerned with various aspects of its business management. And,
in general, conducting planning and coordination of the work of the
synagogue.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your employment in the Federal
Government, did you make the acquaintanceship of a person by the
name of James E. Gorham, G-o-r-h-a-m ?

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. Arens. Why ?

Mr. Katz. I avail myself of the privilege afforded me by the Fifth
Amendment of the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. Do you feel that if you told this committee the truth
as to whether or not you knew James E. Gorham during the course of
your employment in the Federal Government you would be supplying
information which could be used against vou in a criminal proceeding?

(At this point, Mr. Kearney entered the hearing room.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. Will you pardon me a moment ?

Mt-. Arens. Surelv.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

3406 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Katz. I am aware that there has been testimony in rej^ard to
me before this committee, and because of that, I must avail myself of
the protection accorded to me by the Constitution of the United States.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Gorham testified before this committee under oath,
that, to his certain knowledije, you were a member of the Communist
Party while employed by the Government, and that you were assio;ned
to a Coimnunist cell comprised of employees of the WPA. Was Mr.
Gorham lyinc^ or was he tellino; the truth ?

Mr. Katz. I respectfully submit I must decline to answer that for
the aforementioned reason, sir.

Mr. Akens. Do vou know or have you known a person bv the name
of Edna Richter, R-i-c-h-t-e-r ?

Mr. Katz. Miss Richter worked for the Works Progress Adminis-
tration while I was there.

Mr. Arens. Did you know her in any other capacity ?

Mr. Katz. I knew her as a member of the union, I guess.

Mr. Arens. Did you know her in any other capacity ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that for the reasons stated.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you were an acquaintance of Edna Richter who was
chairman or leader of a Communist Party cell in the Government and
of which you were a member.

Mr. Katz. I respectfully submit that I am impelled to decline to
answer that for the reasons I have already indicated.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you answered that
question truthfully you would be supplying information which could
be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. Katz. It might, sir.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person or have you known a [)er.son by
the name of Bernard Greenberg ?

Mr. Katz. He, too, was employed in the WPA, I believe, at the
time I was there.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity was he employed ?

Mr. Katz. Gentlemen, I really don't know. I don't remember.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity did you know him ?

Mr. Katz. That was 19 years ago.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity did you know him ?

Mr. Katz. Pretty much the same as I did Edna Richter.

Mr. Arens. What do you mean by that ?

Mr. Katz. lie was a member of the union and so was she, as I
recall.

Mr. Arens. Is that the only way you knew him ?

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer further in regard to that.

Mr. Arens. In other words, if you told this committee the truth as
to whether or not you knew Bernard Greenberg in any capacity,
other than the capacity which you have described, you would be
supplying information which could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding, is that correct ?

Mr. Katz. Well, it might tend to,

Mr. Arens. Do you know a ]')erson or have you known a person by
the name of Marcel Kistin, K-i-s-t-i-n ?

Mr. Katz. Mr. Kistin was also employed by the WPA at the time
I was there.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3407

Mr, Arens. Is that the only capacity in which you have known
him?

Mr. Katz. I recall that he was active in the union.

Mr. Arens. You know you are under oath here to tell the whole
truth. Tell us the whole truth as to the nature of your acquaintance-
ship with Marcel Kristin.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. I decline again, sir, for the reasons stated.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person or have you known a person by
tlie name of Irving Kichter, E-i-c-h-t-e-r ?

Mr. Katz. Did I know or do I know ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Katz. Yes ; I did know an Irving Richter.

Mr. Arens. Since you are under oath to tell us the whole truth,
tell us the whole truth as to the nature of your acquaintanceship with
Irving Richter.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. Well, Mr. Counsel, I don't recall knowing Mr. Richter
at the time I worked for the WPA. I will answer your question — I do
recall knowing him at the time that he was doing legislative work
for one of the unions in the city.

Mr. Arens. Is that the only capacity in which you have known
Irving Richter ?

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Katz, you are employed by a great religious organ-
ization, a faith that first perceived the existence of God as a heavenly
Father, and first developed the concept of the spiritual nature of man.
Have you ever belonged to an organization which denies the existence
of God, denies the existence of the spiritual nature of man, and is dedi-
cated to a materialistic philosophy of life ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. That is a very interesting question. Do you mind read-
ing that back to me ?

Mr. Arens. Read it back, Mr. Reporter.

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)

Mr. Katz. I am quite sure I did not, sir.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever belonged to the Communist Party ?

Mr. Katz. I must decline to answer that qviestion.

Mr. Arens. What distinction do you make between the basic philoso-
phy of the Communist Party and the philosophy which I described in
the principal question a moment ago ?

Mr. Katz. Will you excuse me a moment, sir ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. I will have to really decline to answer that question, Mr.
Counsel.

Mr. Arens. The truth is that the Communist Party, of which you
were a member, is dedicated to the destruction of our concepts of God
and our concepts of the spiritual nature of man, and is dedicated to a
materialistic ruthless philosophy, is that not true?

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever known a person by the name of Herbert
Fuchs, F-u-c-h-s ?

Mr. ICatz. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Why?

3408 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. K^Tz. I avail myself of the protection accorded to me by the
Fifth Amendment of the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. Do you feel if you told this committee whether or
not you knew Herbert Fuchs you would be supplying information
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. In the light of what is said here, yes, sir.

The Chairman. I should think in view of the contribution that
Herbert Fuchs made toward the preservation of this Republic, you
would be proud to admit that you knew him.

Mr. Katz. I would be proud to what, sir ?

The Chairman. Admit that you knew him.

Mr. Rand. Is there a question pending, sir ?

The Chairman. No, I was just making an observation.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Fuchs took an oath before God to tell the truth
before this committee, to tell the whole truth, and in the course of
that testimony before this committee of the Congress, said that a part
of his job as a imnber of the Communist Party was to attend section
meetings of the Communist Party here in Washington; that these
section meetings were attended by individuals who were representa-
tives of other Communist groups from various Government agencies
in Washington. He testified that he attended these section meetings
in 1936 and 1937. He further stated, under oath, before God, that at
these section meetings lie met with you and knew you as a member of
the Communist conspiracy.

Was Mr. Fuchs lying or was he telling the truth ?

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that in 1936 and 1937 you were a leader of one of these sec-
tion groups of the Communist conspiracy in the Government of the
United States.

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that.

Mr. Arens. We believe that you, as of this instant, possess infor-
mation wliich would be of great value to your Government with
reference to the existence of certain Communist Party cells in the
Government of the United States. I now ask you if you have informa-
tion respecting the existence of Communist Party cells in the Govern-
ment of the United States.

Mr. Katz. I must decline to answer that, sir.

Mr. Arens. In other words, if you told tliis committee the truth
under oath as to whether or not you have information respectinff the
existence of Communist Party cells in the Government of the United
States, you would be supplying information which could be used
against you in a criminal proceeding; is that correct?

Mr. Rand. May I consult with my client a moment?

The Chapman. Surely.

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Rand. Mr. Arens, may I inquire, are you speaking about the
present in the existence in Government?

Mr. Arens. Any time.

Mr. Rand. Any time, past and present ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3409

Mr. Katz. I decline, Mr, Counsel.

Mr. Arens. It has been suggested to me by one of the distinguished
members of this committee, that you be asked whether or not you
would supply this committee with information, in your possession,
respecting the Communist conspiracy, if this committee should cause
proceedings to be instituted to grant you immunity from prosecution.

Mr. Kand. May I consult with my client on this matter?

Mr. Arens. Surely.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. May I state this in reply to your question: I do not
recall that I have either affirmed or denied that I am aware of what
you have described in your question, and my recollection is that I
declined to answer that question. As to your offer, counsel advises
me that he has doubts as to the practicality or the legality of such an
offer. On advice of counsel, I must at this time decline such an offer.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person or have you known a person by
the name of Eleanor Nelson ?

Mr. Katz. Eleanor Nelson was an official of one of the unions with
which I worked. I certainly knew her.

Mr. Arens. You are under oath to tell this committee the whole
truth. Tell us every association which you have had with Eleanor
Nelson.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. How about Arthur Stein, S-t-e-i-n ? Do you know him ?

Mr. Katz. He was similarly an officer of the unions with which I
worked. Of course I knew him.

Mr. Arens. And, of course, that is the only way you knew him, is
that correct ?

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. The truth is you knew Arthur Stein, as you did Eleanor
Nelson, as leaders of Communist cells in the Federal Government, is
that correct ?

ISIr. Katz. I have already declined to answer that.

Mr. Arens. Did you know Henry Rhine, R-h-i-n-e ?

Mr. Katz. Yes, I knew Henry Rhine. He was also an official of one
of the unions.

Mr. Arens. And his wife, Jessica Rhine ?

Mr. Katz. Yes, I knew her.

Mr. Arens. Is that the only basis upon which you knew them ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. I respectfully decline.

Mr. Arens. Did you know Philip Reno ?

Mr. Katz. Mr. Reno was also active in the unions.

Mr. Arens. Is that the only way you knew Philip Reno, Jessica
Rhine, and Henry Rhine ?

Mr. Katz. I respectfully decline.

Mr. Arens. The truth is, is it not, that you knew Philip Reno,
Jessica Rhine and Henry Rhine as leaders of the Communist Party
cell or section, of which you were a member? May we have your
answer for the record ?

Mr. Katz. Well, if that is a question, the answer is I respectfully
decline to answer it.

3410 coMMijisriST estfiltration of government

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person or have you known a person by
the name of Bernard Stern, S-t-e-r-n, and his wife, Janet Stern?

Mr. Katz. Yes, sir, I knew them both.

Mr. Arens. Tell us the nature of your acquaintanceship with them.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer, sir.

Mr. Arens. The truth is that they, likewise, were members of this
Communist cell or section of which you were a member, is that not
true ?

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer, sir.

Mr. Arens. Did you loiow a Joseph Eobison in any capacity other
than that of a fellow employee while you were working with him under
Mr. Maslow at the American Jewish Congress ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. I regi-et that I must decline.

Mr. Arens. The truth is that you and Joseph Robison were both
Communists while you were employed by the American Jewish Con-
gress, is that not so ?

Mr. Katz. I regret that I must decline.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee whether or not you and Joseph Eobison were members of the
Communist Party while you were employed from 1945 to 1948 by the
American Jewish C'ongress, that 3^ou would be supplying facts which
could be used against you in a ci-iminal proceeding?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. I am aware, sir, that there has been testimony in regard
to me before this committee, and the answer I give might tend to be
used against me. I respectfully decline.

Mr. Arens. In what kind of proceeding do you honestly apprehend
your answer might be used against you?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. I think a criminal proceeding.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party while you
were executive secretary of the Maryland and District Trade Union
Council from 193Y to 1945 ?

Mr. Katz. The name is Maryland and District of Columbia Indus-
trial Union Council.

Mr. Arens. I appreciate your correcting that. Maryland and Dis-
trict of Columbia Industrial Union Council. You were the executive
secretary from 1937 to 1945. During that ])eriod of time, were you a
member of the Communist Party ?

]Mr. Katz. I must again decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
you were working in the Wallace campaign in 1948 ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that in regard to this entire question
covered here.

Mr. Arens. Did you, when you accepted your employment or pro-
cured employment with the American Jewish Congress in New York
City, reveal to the persons responsible for your employment whether
or not you had ever been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Katz. I don't understand you.

Mr. Arens. "VN-lien you got your job with the American Jewish Con-
gress in 1945 did you have a discussion and reveal to the person re-

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3411

sponsible for your employment the fact respecting whether or not you
had been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Katz. Excuse me, sir.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. What stumped me is this business of reveal. I didn't
follow your thinking there.

Mr. Arens. Let us get back to it again. I fear my question is a
little unclear and perhaps unfair. I did not mean it to be so.

Mr. Katz. I didn't want to say that.

Mr. Arens. I readily assert that myself. I think it was not quite
clear. It was not intentionally so.

When you accepted your employment at the American Jewish Con-
gress, tell us, just in your own words, what, if anything, transpired
respecting your past activities, affiliations, or associations.

Mr. Willis. I think you mean whether there were any discussions
respecting Communist Party affiliations.

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Katz. Well, I will tell you, it was a rather strange kind of
conference. To the best of my recollection, I went up there cold and
didn't know a soul. I just threw out a bunch of newspaper clippings
about my activities, or some of them, that I was engaged in that were
with regard to the CIO, particularly in public relations, legislative
work, social action.

Mr. Arens. Do you know Joseph Robinson before you went with
the American Jewish Congress?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. Let me have that question again.

Mr, Arens. Mr. Reporter, read it back to him.

(The reporter read from his notes as requested. )

Mr. Katz. Well, you know, I don't remember. I really don't.

Mr. Arens. Did you know him at the time you went with the
American Jewish Congress? Did you know he was employed there?

Mr. Katz. At the time I went up there ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Katz. My recollection is, and I may be wrong, but I think I
am right, that I was there ahead of him.

Mr. Arens. Then he did not, apparently, have anything to do with
your procuring employment at the American Jewish Congress ?

Mr. Katz. Unless it was through some mystical way. I don't know.

Mr. Arens. Did you have anything to do with procuring his employ-
ment at the American Jewish Congress? By "his", I mean Joseph
Robison.

Mr. Katz. I know who you mean. I tell you, I don't recall ever
having met him in this. So when he came there, as far as I was con-
cerned, to me it seemed like a guy I had never seen before. I knew an
awful lot of people in this town, sir, and I can't remember.

Mr. Arens. Were you interrogated by your superiors in the process
of pi'ocuring your employment, respecting any past affiliations other
than the affiliation you had with CIO ?

Mr. Katz. I don't recall that I was, sir.

Mr. Arens. Did you make a complete and full revelation to your
prospective employers at the American Jewish Congress respecting
your affiliations, memberships, and associations?

3412 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Katz. It is hard for me to recall the conference, or just how it
went, but I am sure that I was fully communicative as to whatever
they asked me, sir.

Mr. Arens. Did you volunteer any statements respecting your past
affiliations, associations, or memberships?

Mr. Katz. Well, I don't know what you mean, sir.

Mr, Arens. To come right to the point, did you let them know that
you had been a member of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. There is an assumption in that question, sir, and I am
not going to deal with the assumption. I am just going to decline to
answer.

Mr. Arens. You recognize, of course, you are leveling a rather
serious indictment at certain people, if you did accept employment
there and were a Communist and revealed that fact to your employers ?

Mr. Katz. I am not sure.

Mr. Arens. I am just trying to be fair to your employers.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. IvATZ. I appreciate your desire to be fair with my employers,
both past and present. I don't feel that I am leveling any indictment
at them, sir, by declining to answer any of these questions that you
have asked me, on the subjects where I felt the necessity of relying on
the privilege.

Mr. Arens. Do your present employers know all essential elements
of your past memberships, affiliations and associations ?

Mr. Katz. I have told the truth to all the people to whom I ever
applied for any job, at any time, anywhere, including my current.

Mr. Arens. Have you told them the whole truth ?

Mr. Katz. The whole truth. Always. Every single employer.

Mr. Arens. Tell this committee the whole truth. Are you now a
member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Katz. I must again decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. Arens. Are you under Communist discipline at the present
time?

Mr. Katz. I must decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. When you were with the CIO as executive secretary of
the Maryland and District of Columbia Industrial Union Council, did
you have access to congressional committees to promote the interest of
the CIO? What I am trying to learn was that part of your work?
Were you a lobbyist ?

Mr. Katz. Yes, we had as much access as Congressmen were avail-
able.

Mr. Arens. In other words you were a lobbyist ?

Mr. Katz. I don't know that that is precisely the term. I made an
effort to help Congressmen understand the point of view of organized
labor.

Mr. Arens. Was it only organized labor you were interested in?

Mr. Katz. Well, that was the organization I was working for, sir.

Mr. Arens. Let us get the whole truth on this. Were you working
for organized labor or were you also under discipline of another
entity ?

Mr. Rand. Is this in connection with these legislative efforts ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

( The witness conferred with his counsel . )

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3413

Mr. Katz. Well, I don't know what kind of a question that is, sir.

Mr. Arens. I think you do know what kind of a question it is, and
I think the committee is entitled to an answer.

The Chairman. Eephrase it,

Mr. AiiENS. While you were the legislative representative or execu-
tive secretary of this CIO group, were you likewise under discipline,
receiving instructions and orders, from some other group?

Mr. Katz. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, I always
at all times in any representation I made before this body, and I don't
mean this committee, but any committee of Congress, or any committee
in the State Legislature of Maryland, always represented only the
viewj)oint of the organization that I was working for, namely the
CIO in this area. Never at any time was I representing any other.
At least, I attempted to represent them. I made mistakes, too.

The Chairman. You say you attempted to, and is that because you
fear that perhaps subconsciously you were expressing the views and
attitudes and positions of another organization of which you were a
member? Is that correct?

Mr. I>[atz. I qualified myself by attempting to deal with the thing
known as human frailty, that sometimes you try to represent a point
of view and you do it as well as you can. That is all I am saying.

The Chairman. It is unfortunate that many labor unions were rep-
resented by people who had other interests, and these other people
tried and succeeded — they were quite adroit — in creating the impres-
sion that unionism and communism were synonymous. Of course, to
the credit of the vast majority of the American workers, they are not
getting away with that any longer. What Mr. Arens and what we are
interested in is, when the union viewpoint was expressed, was that
viewpoint influenced in any way by the Communist Party.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. Sir, I really tried to answer full}' and frankly a few
moments ago. I am trying to say that I tried fully and conscienti-
ously and to the best of my ability to represent exclusively, exclu-
sively^, the viewpoint of organized labor as we understood it at that
time in the CIO.

Mr. Arens. AVliile you were executive secretary of the CIO Coun-
cil, from 1937 to 1945, were you also a member of some other organi-
zation ?

Mr. IvATZ. Of some other organization ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Katz. Well, I would be surprised if I was not, sir.

Mr. Arens. Enumerate some of the organizations of which you were
a member.

Mr. Katz. I don't know. I was probably a member of the District
of Columbia Suffrage Association. I would be surprised if I wasn't
sir. I was a member of the Democratic Central Committee of the
District of Columbia for about 4 years.

The Chairman. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
that time?

Mr. IvATz, I must decline to answer that question, sir.

The Chairman. You are not under any compulsion at all. You
say, "I must decline."

Mr. Katz. I didn't mean it in that sense. I decline to answer.

3414 coMMtnsriST infiltration of government

The Chairman. You did not hestitate to mention the other organ-
izations to which you belonged.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Katz, while you were with the CIO Council from
1937 to 1945, and engaged in so-called lobbying activities, presenting
your viewpoint or someone's viewpoint on labor and other matters,
did you know of any person employed by the Congress, in a Congress-
man's office, or a congressional committee, who to your certain knowl-
edge, was a member of the Communist Party ?

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Did you know whether or not the council, of which you
were executive secretary, was controlled by the Communist Party ?

Mr. Katz. Well, let me put it to you this way, sir: The council
consisted of an annual convention and an executive board consisting of
the heads of major union groups in this area and outlying District of
Columbia. Their policy was by and large, and almost entirely, as I
understood it, controlled and influenced by the national CIO policy.

Mr. Arens. Was the council to your knowledge directed or influ-
enced in any way by persons known by you to be members of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Katz. Known by me?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this concludes the
the interrogation of this witness by the staff.

The Chairman. Did he decline to answer ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. I have one question.

During the time that you were the CIO representative in this area,
and dealing with congressional legislation, were you meeting in Com-
munist Party cells, whether in or out of labor circles ? What is the
truth ?

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Congressman.

Mr. Doyle. The reason I ask that question is because we have ample
sworn testimony that almost without exception, where a known Com-
munist is in the employ of organized labor, the known Communists
put the policy of the Communist Party ahead of the policy of organ-
ized labor. And yet you claim your privilege when I ask you frankly
whether or not you were meeting in Communist cells during the time
you were at a top level in the CIO.

Mr. Kand. Mr. Congressman, the witness has testified that he merely
carried out CIO policy.

Mr. Doyle. Yes.

You cannot tell me that during those years CIO policy was con-
trolled by the Communist Party, can you? Is that what you are tell-
ing me ? You answered that you were carrying out CIO policy. Do
you mean to tell me that you were carrying out Communist Party
policy in the name of the CIO ?

Mr. Katz. I don't remember saying an^'ihing like that. I don't
understand you.

Mr. Doyle. Let me ask you again. During the years 1987 to 1945,
or any portion of those years, when you were drawing your salary
from the CIO did you attend Communist Party cell meetings.

Mr. Katz. On that question I decline to answer, sir.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3415

Mr. Doyle. During the time you Avere in the employ of the United
States Government, did you attend Communist cell meetings in Gov-
ernment buildings? I am limiting my question to whether or not the
Communist cells which you attended," if you did, met in Government
buildings during the time you were drawing Federal pay. What is
the fact '^

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer.

Mr. Doyle. I have one more question. Have you attencled Com-
munist Party cell meetings, or any fraction of a Communist Party
cell, under the roof of the American- Jewnsh Congress, or in any syna-
gogue, since you have been in the employ of Jewish organizations?
Have you or have you not ?

In 1 or 2 places"^ in the country, I have heard, but which were not
known to the Rabbi.

Mr. Katz. In synagogues ?

Mr. Doyle. In connection with them.

Mr. Katz. I don't know what you mean by that.

Mr. Doyle. I am asking you whether or not you as a Communist
have met with other Communists, for Communist Party purposes, in
or about Jewish synagogues or church property, right under the roof,
either of a synagogue or any portion of a Jewish community building.

( The witness conferred with his counsel, )

Mr. Doyle. Do you claim the privilege for that, too ?

Mr. Katz. Would you permit me to pause for a moment, sir?

Mr. Doyle. Certainly.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Katz. Did you ask whether there were Communist meetings
in and around synagogues ?

Mr. Doyle. I asked whether or not you ever attended one. I did
not say you had.

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Any questions, Mr. Willis ?

Mr. Willis. No.

The Chairman. Mr. Kearney ?

Mr. Kearney. No questions.

The (yHAiRMAN. If there are no further questions, we will recess.

Mr. Rand. Mr. Chairman, Mrs. Katz is here, and they are down
from New York. I don't know how long Mr. Arens intends to be
with Mrs. Katz, but if it is at all possible, they would both like to
get back. They have children back in New York.

The Chairman. What do you say, Mr. Arens ?

Mr. Arens. It miglit be well if the committee can indulge them for
another half hour. I do not see how w^e can conclude with her in less
than a half hour.

Mr. Willis. We must be on the floor of the House as the President
of Italy is to address the Congress at noon.

The Chairman. Can you complete the interrogation in 15 minutes?

Mr. Arens. We will be as pointed as possible.

Mr. Rand. I appreciate it, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. If you will waive any objections you might make
or could make with respect to a quorum.
Mr. Rand. I will be glad to waive them, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. We will accommodate you, then.

3416 COMMUNIST ESTFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Please come forward, Mrs. Katz, and remain standing
to be sworn.

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?

Mrs. Katz. I do.

TESTIMONY OF JULIA KATZ, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HARRY I. RAND

The Chairman. I am hopeful that there will be no inferences
drawn from the fact that the names of some fine organizations have
gotten into these hearings. It is indeed unfortunate that some indi-
viduals have found connections in organizations where I am sure they
do not belong. I am sure that their presence has been embarrassing.
This is particularly true of the labor unions. Because of the fact that
some of these individuals have appeared before this committee, I hope
no one will draw any inference that these organizations are in fact
Communist dominated. I am sure they are not.

(At this point, Mr. Kearney departed from the hearing room.)

Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence and
occupation.

Mrs. Katz. My name is Julia Katz. I am a housewife and live in
New York City.

Mr. Arens. Are you the wife of Sidney Katz who just preceded
you on the witness stand ?

Mrs. Katz. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?

Mr. Rand. Harry I. Rand, Wyatt Building, Washington, D. C.

Mr. Arens. We are going to try to stay with the essentials on this
interrogation so we will economize on time as much as possible.

Mrs. Katz. I appreciate that.

Mr. Arens. Please give us in sketch form an outline of your educa-
tion and your background, where you were born, when you graduated
from school, and an enumeration of the jobs you have held, please.
Just in very succinct form, please.

Mrs. Katz. I was born in Russia. I have derivative naturalization,
sometime during my early childhood from my father's naturalization.

Mr. Arens. If you will pause for a question I must ask you, when
did you come to the United States?

Mrs. Katz. 1912, 1 think. I was then 2 years old,

Mr. Arens. Proceed, please.

Mrs. Katz. I went to school in New York City and I am a graduate
of NYU. I went to college with my husband. We were married as
soon as we finished college. I had employment in New York City as
a social worker in public welfare for a period of about 2 or 3 years,
I believe. I am very vague on dates and spans of time. But the best
of my recollection is I terminated my employment when my husband
came to Washington, whatever that year was. I was unemployed in
Washington until somewhere in the 1930's. I had a period of about 1
year in a local, in a District of Columbia WPA office, which was an
interviewing office for applicants for WPA jobs. I was employed
there as an interviewer.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3417

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, Mrs. Katz, the Federal jobs
which you held, and the approximate dates.

Mrs. Katz. The one and only Federal job that I held, I think the
funds probably came from Federal sources, was in a District of Co-
lumbia WPA office.

Mr. Arens. And when was that ?

Mrs. Katz. It was for a period of about, I should say, a year, some-
where around 1936, 1 think.

Mr. Arens. Could it have been as late as 1937?

Mrs. Katz. I couldn't say.

Mr. Arens. Your best recollection at the moment is 1936, is that
correct ?

Mrs. Katz. Something like that.

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Katz, tell us whether or not you have ever known
a person by the name of Herbert Fuchs.

Mrs. Katz. I decline to answer that.

Mr. Arens. Wliy?

Mrs. Katz. Under my privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Wliy ?

Mrs. Katz. The circumstances of this interrogation and the preced-
ing testimony cause me to fear that to answer that question in any way
would subject me to prosecution.

Mr. Arens. If you answered that question truthfully do you think
you might supply facts which could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding, is that correct ?

Mrs. Katz. I think that it might tend to do that.

Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you known a person by the name
of Eleanor Nelson ?

Mrs. Katz. I must decline to answer that.

Mr. Arens. In the interest of economizing on time, Mr. Katz, I would
like to read you a list of names, and ask you certain questions applicable
to each and every person on the list : Eleanor Nelson, Arthur Stein,
Henry Rhine, Jessica Rhine, R-h-i-n-e, Philip Reno, Bernard Stern,
and Janet Stern. May I ask you first of all whether or not you
know or have known each of those persons on the list I just read to you.

Mrs. Katz. I think it best that I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. We must have a more pointed response, Mrs. Katz.

Mrs. Katz. I positively decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. And why ?

Mrs. Katz. On the grounds that I stated previously, under my
privilege, the privilege granted me by the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. We ought to get this record clear. Do you honestly
apprehend that if you gave a truthful answer to that question, you
would be supplying information which could be used against you in
a criminal proceeding ?

Mrs. Katz. I must conclude the presence of such an apprehension
because of the circumstances of this interrogation.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly in your own heart and in yo"^' own
mind feel that if you told this committee whether or not you have
even known these people on this list that I have just read to you,
you would be supplying information which could be used against you
in a criminal proceeding ?

Mrs. KL\TZ. I honestly believe that.

3418 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr, Arens. Do you know or have you ever known persons by the
name of Morton and Esther Stavis, S-t-a-v-i-s ?

Mrs. Katz. Yes ; I have known t hem.

Mr, Arens. Could you tell us the nature of your acquaintanceship
with them ?

Mrs. Katz. Well, I know that they have children the same age as
my children.

Mr. Arens. Can you further identify them for us and tell us how
you happen to know that there are such people as Morton and Esther
Stavis?

Mrs. Katz. I don't know, I think I once

Mr. Arens. Let us take it this way. Where did you know them?

Mrs. Katz. I know them since New York, to the best of my
recollection.

Mr. Arens. Where do they live ?

Mrs. Katz. They live in New Jersey.

Mr. Arens. Where did you meet them ?

Mrs. Katz. I met them on a boat.

Mr. Arens. What boat ?

Mrs. Katz. Their boat.

Mr. Arens. Is it a private boat ?

Mrs. Katz. They are sailboat people, yes.

Mr. xVrens. How did you happen to make their acquaintanceship?

Mrs. Katz. I don't exactly remember when I met them.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with them ?

Mrs. Katz. I met them socially. I met them somewhere where our
children took up with each other.

Mr. Arens. Is that the only basis upon which you have known them ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Katz. That is the only basis on which I know them.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever acquired information to your certain
knowledge as to whether or not Morton and Esther Stavis, or either of
them, is or has been a member of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Katz. I have no certain knowledge of that.

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Katz, recently, in the course of the last month or
so, Mr. Herbert Fuchs testified before this committee under oath, that
he attended closed section meetings of the Communist Party in Wash-
ington, in 1936 and 1937, at which time you and your hubsand were
present, representing Communist Party cells. Was Mr. Fuchs lying
or was he telling the truth ?

Mrs. Katz. In view of the circumstances of these interrogations, I
again use my privilege under the fifth amendment,

Mr. Arens. What do you mean, the circumstances of this investiga-
tion ? Just a plain ordinary man testified under oath that you were
in the Communist Party with him,

Mrs. IvATz. Those are the circumstances.

Mr. Willis. You mean cells of the Commmiist Party composed of
people working for the Government?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir; thank you.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3419

Mr. Arens. The circumstance that causes your apprehension is the
fact that the man testified under oath that you were a Communist, is
that correct ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Katz. I am declining to answer because of the circumstances.

Mr. Arens. What circumstances are you talking about?

Mrs. Katz. The circumstances that are implicit in my presence
here, and in the fact that witnesses have identified me with the ex-
istence of a meeting of the group.

Mr. Arens. What kind of groups did they talk about?

Mr. Rand. ]\Ir. Chairman, I suggest that the witness has fully
answered this question. I respectfully suggest that she has explained
her reason for apprehension here. I think rather fully, too.

The Chairman. She is apprehensive because somebody has identi-
fied her as having been a member of a Communist cell, and she will not
answer the question because she is afraid that if she does she would
incriminate herself. I think a very simple way to arrive at the solu-
tion would be to ask her whether or not this person was telling the
truth when he testified.

Mr. Arens. We did pose that question. Congressman.

Mrs. Katz. I decline to answer that.

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party.

Mrs. Katz. I decline to answer that for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. JNIr. Chairman, off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

The Chairman. Back on the record.

Mr. Arens. Do you have information, Mrs. Katz, respecting the
existence at any time of Communist cells in the Government of the
United States ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Katz. I must decline to answer that, under the same reasons.

Mr. Arens. Do you know of the existence in the Government of
the United States at this time of any person who, to your certain
knowledge, is a member of the Communist Party?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Katz. Xo, I don't.

Mr. Arens. I would respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman that the
staff interrogation of this witness is concluded.

The Chairman. Are there any questions?

If not, the witness is excused.

Mr. Rand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. We will recess now until 2: 30 this afternoon.

(Present at the taking of the recess: The Chairman, Representa-
tives Willis and Doyle.)

(Wliereupon, at 11 :45 a. m. the hearing was recessed to recoiivene
at 2 : 30 p. m. the same day. )

afternoon session WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 2 0, 19 5(5

(Committee members present at the convening of the afternoon
session: The Chairman, Representatives Doyle and Willis.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Call your first witness.

70811 — 56— pt. 5 4

3420 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Mr. Robert Greenberg, please.

Please remain standing and be sworn.

The Chairman. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?

Mr. Greenberg. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT N. GREENBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ABE SPERO

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.

Mr. Greenberg. My name is Robert Greenberg. I live in Mount
Rainier, Md. I am an insurance salesman.

Mr. Arens. With what company are you identified, Mr. Greenberg ?

Mr. Greenberg. I am identified with several companies, in view
of the fact that my insurance sales cover a range of life and general
insurance, and tlie insurance policies I sell are handled by more than
one company.

Mr. Arens. What is the principal company with which you are
identified ?

Mr. Greenberg. The Mutual Life.

Mr. Arens. Mutual Life Insurance Co. of what State?

Mr. Greenberg. New York State.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Greenberg, are you appearing today in response
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?

Mr. Greenberg. That is right.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?

Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself?

Mr. Spero. Abe Spero, Washington, D. C.

Mr. Arens. Identify the law firm if you are so associated ?

Mr. Spero. I am an attorney on my own, not associated with a law
firm.

Mr. Arens. Have you appeared, Mr. Greenberg, in the course of
the last several days, in executive session before the Committee on
Un-American Activities ?

Mr. Greenberg. That is certainly right, sir.

Mr. Arens. In view of the fact that details of your background
have been developed in executive session, I shall try in this question-
ing to omit any of those extraneous details, so we can come right to
the issues now of interest to the committee.

(At this point, Representative Moulder entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ? .

Mr. Greenberg. I was born January 1, 1915, in New York City.

Mr. Arens. Were you graduated from the College of the City of
New York in 1934?

Mr. Greenberg. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Thereafter, in 1935, you became employed by the De-
partment of Labor, in the Bureau of Labor Statistics, is that correct?

Mr. Greenberg. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you employed in the Bureau of
Labor Statistics?

COMMUNIST ESTFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3421

Mr. Greenberg. Statistical clerk, sir.

Mr. Arens. How long were you so employed ?

Mr. Greenberg. Perhaps for a year or for 15 months, I believe.

Mr. Arens. Continue please.

Mr. Greenberg. I continued in the Department of Labor until 1941,
and then was employed in the United States Employment Service
until I entered the Armed Forces in July of 1942. I served 39 months
with the Armed Forces, was honorably discharged in October 1945.
I resumed employment in December of 1945 going with the French
Supply Council, until June of 1946. In June of 1946, 1 was employed
hy the Guaranteed Wage Study, in which position I continued until
April of 1947. In April of 1947, I was employed by the Food and
Agricultural Organization, and continued there until October of 1947.
Then followed 1 year of employment in the Department of Commerce,
until October 1948. I left the Department of Commerce to accept a
position with a private research organization, which continued until
April of 1949.

Mr. Arens. What is the name of the private research organization ?

Mr. Greenberg. The Public Affairs Institute.

Mr. Arens. Where is that located ?

Mr. Greenberg. In Washington, D. C.

Mr. Arens. And your job there?

Mr. Greenberg. Research.

Mr. Arens. And your next employment ?

Mr. Greenberg. I entered the insurance business in April 1949.

Mr. Arens. And you have been continuously employed in the in-
surance business since then, is that correct ?

Mr. Greenberg. I would like to make this distinction, since I think
it is pertinent. I am not employed. I am self-employed. I under-
stand from a legal standpoint I am what is known as an independent
contractor.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Greenberg, do you know or have you ever known
a person by the name of Jacob Grauman, G-r-a-u-m-a-n?

Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir ; I did.

Mr. Arens. What has been the nature of your acquaintanceship
with him ?

Mr. Greenberg. He was a fellow employee on the Guaranteed Wage
Study on which I was employed for 9 months.

Mr. Arens. In what year ?

Mr. Greenberg. June of 1946 until April of 1947.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever known him in any capacity other than
xis a fellow employee ?

Mr. Greenberg. He lived as a resident in the same apartment de-
velopment in which I was a resident.

Mr. Arens. Is there any other capacity in which you have known
him?

Mr. Greenberg. He was an employee of the Department of Labor.

Mr. Arens. Is there any other capacity in which you have known
him?

Mr. Greenberg. I do not understand the tenor of your question, sir.

Mr. Arens. Have you and Jacob Grauman had an association or
activity together in concert other than the association or activity which
you have thus far recounted to this committee ?

3422 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr, Greenberg. May I consult counsel, sir ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Greenberg. I don't understand that question, sir.

Mr. Arens. Have you and Jacob Grauman ever belonged to the
same organization ?

Mr. Greenberg. Yes ; we belonged to a union in the Department of
Labor.

Mr. Arens. Is there any other organization to which you and Jacob
Grauman have belonged ?

Mr. Greenberg. Sir, I do not understand your question.

Mr. Arens. Name the organizations of which both you and Jacob
Grauman were members.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Greenberg. Sir, I must decline to answer this question.

Mr. Arens. Why?

Mr. Greenberg. In accordance with my constitutional rights under
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly and truly apprehend that if you told
this committee of the Congress the associations or activities in which
you engaged with Jacob Grauman you would be supplying information
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?

Mr. Greenbp^rg. I must say that I fear that it mi^ht, sir.

Mr. Arens. Were you and Jacob Grauman coworkers in the Depart-
ment of Labor ?

Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. During what years ?

Mr. Greenberg. I do not recall when I was employed in the Depart-
ment of Labor, except that I know that he was employed there for a
period.

Mr. Arens. I don't believe my question is clear. Were you and he
fellow employees at the same time in the Department of Labor ?

Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. What year was it, or years that you and Grauman were
fellow employees in the Department of Labor ?

Mr. Greenberg. I meant to say that I cannot recall the exact period
of his employment in the Department of Labor. I know that he was
there during some portion of the time that I was there between 1935 and
1942. No, 193.5 and 1939, 1 suppose.

Mr. Arens. Do you loiow a person or have you laiown a person by
the name of Bertha Blair ?

Mr. Greenberg. I must decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. Arens. Are you going to decline to answer whether you know
there ever was such a person by the name of Bertha Blair ?

Mr. Greenberg. I must decline to answer that question, in accord-
ance with my constitutional rights.

Mr. Arens. Why? Why do you decline to answer the question as
to whether or not you have ever known a person bv the name of Bertha
Blair?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

(At this point, Representative Scherer entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Greenberg. I fear that this might tend to lead to prosecution.

Mr. Arens. In other words, if you told this committee the truth
as to whether or not you Icnew Bertha Blair, do you honestly appre-

COMMU^STIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3423

hend that that answer could supply information which could be used
against you in a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. Greenberg. I fear that it might.

Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you known a person by the name
of JNIorris Levine ?

Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us the nature of your acquaintanceship with
Morris Levine.

Mr. Greenberg. He was employed in the Department of Labor when
I was.

]\Ir. Arens. Is that the extent of your acquaintanceship with Morris
Levine ?

Mr. Greenberg. He was, as I understand it, a member of the union,
to which I also belonged.

Mr. Arens. AVhat is the name of that union ?

Mr. Greenberg. I believe it was called the United Federal Workers
of America.

Mr. Arens. Is that the only acquaintanceship that you had with
Morris Levine, through the union and as a fellow employee in the
Department of Labor i

Mr. Greenberg. I will decline to answer that question, in accord-
ance with my constitutional rights.

jNlr. Arens. Is it a fact that if you tell this committee a truthful
answer to that question, you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in a criminal procedeing?

Mr. Greenberg. I fear that it might.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever worked for the United Nations? I be-
lieve we omitted that in the chronology of employment.

Mr. Greenberg. No, sir, I did not. I referred to it under its proper
name, the Food and Agriculture Organization.

Mr. Arens. That is a subentity of the United Nations is it not?

Mr. Greenberg. That is right, except that it operated autonomously.

Mr. Arens. How long did you work for that organization ?

Mr. Greenberg. For 5 or 6 months.

Mr. Arens. In what year, please, sir ?

Mr. Greenberg. From April of 1947 until October 1947.

(At this point Representatives Scherer and Moulder left from the
hearing room.)

]Mr. Arens. Tell us whether or not you have ever known a j^erson
by the name of Helen Miller.

Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. A^liat is the nature of jour acquaintanceship with
Helen Miller ?

Mr. Greenberg. She was employed in the Labor Department when
I was.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity was she employed ?

Mr. Greenberg. I don't recall the nature of her work. She was a
civil-service employee.

(At this point, Representative Willis left from the hearing room.)

Mr. Arens. Was she employed on the same floor of the building
as you ?

Mr. Greenberg. As a matter of fact, she was.

Mr. Arens. How did you know her while there ?

3424 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Greenberg. She was a member of the union to which I belonged..

Mr. Arens. Are you telling us the whole nature of your acquaint-
anceship with her ?

Mr. Greenberg. Would you explain ?

Mr. Arens. You are under oath to this committee to tell us the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Please tell us the
whole truth as to the nature of your acquaintanceship with Helen
Miller.

Mr. Greenberg, I must decline to answer that question in accord-
ance with my constitutional rights.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you should tell us the
truth to that question, you would be giving us information that might
be used against you in a criminal proceeding?

Mr. Greenberg. It might.

Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you ever known a person by
the name of Harry Brenner ?

Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir. He was employed in the Department of
Labor when I was.

Mr. Arens. Tell us the whole truth with respect to your acquaint-
anceship with Harry Brenner?

Mr. Greenberg. He was a member of the union to which I belonged.

Mr. Arens. Is tliat the whole truth with reference to your ac-
quaintanceship with Harry Brenner?

Mr. Greenberg. I must decline to answer in accordance with my
constitutional rights.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, that you, Harry Brenner, Helen
Miller, Morris Levine, Bertha Blair, and Jacob Grauman, about whom
I have interrogated you, were all members of a Communist conspiracy
cell in the Department of Labor, and I ask you now to affirm or deny
that fact.

Mr. Greenberg. I decline to answer in accordance with my consti-
tutional rights.

Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you known a person by the name
of George Silverman ?

Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Can you tell this committee whether or not to your
certain knowledge George Silverman is or was a member of the
Communist Party?

Mr. Greenberg. I have no knowledge of his membership in the Com-
munist Party. Would you be interested in any further information
as to the extent of my relationship with George Silverman ?

Mr. Arens. Kindly give us that information as succinctly as is at
all convenient, sir.

Mr. Greenberg. All right. While in the service

Mr. Arens. Which service ?

Mr. Greenberg. In the Armed Forces, as a member of the Air
Force. While on furlough, I heard of a job in a unit of the Pentagon
in which he had an official capacity, where they were employmg
trained personnel, enlisted men and civilians, on work of the Gov-
ernment. I applied for consideration, and this consideration was
not given to me and that was the end of the first contact with any
organization with which Mr. Silverman was connected.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3425

Mr. Akens. Would you pause there a moment ? Did you know that
Silverman and Silvermaster were cohorts, colleagues, in an enter-
prise ?

Mr. Greenberg. I had no knowledge of any activities of Mr. George
Silverman or Silvermaster that were detrimental to the Government
of the United States.

Mr. Arens. I didn't ask you that question.

Mr. Greenberg. Please restate it.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not George Silverman and
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster were colleagues in some enterprise?

Mr. Greenberg. I never knew Nathan Gregory Silvermaster. I
never saw him, I never spoke to him. I have no knowledge of him
whatsoever.

Mr. Arens. Now would you answer the question? Do you know
whether or not Silvermaster and George Silverman were colleagues,
to your knowledge, in any enterprise ?

Mr. Greenberg. I had no knowledge of their being colleagues in
any enterprise.

(At this point, Representative Doyle left the hearing room. Com-
mittee members present at this point: Tlie Chairman.)

Mr. Arens. Now proceed. You were explaining your relationships
or associations or contacts with Silverman.

Mr. Greenberg. I have described the first relationship with an or-
ganization with which he was connected. It did not involve, so far
as I recall, any contact with him, even of the most cursory sort.

Mr. Arens. What year did you enter the Armed Forces ?

Mr. Greenberg. I entered the Armed Forces in July 1942.

Mr. Arens. Did you disassociate yourself from the Communist
Party in July of 1942?

Mr. Greenberg. I will answer that question. Since before I en-
tered the Armed Forces, I have had no connection with any activity
that could even be deeemed controversial by a person of conservative
political views.

Mr. Arens. How long before you entered the Armed Forces did
you find yourself in that status where you could not be regarded as
being in any activity which would be at all of controversy ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Greenberg. I must decline to answer that question, in accord-
ance with my constitutional rights.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question. He has opened the
door.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Greenberg. I decline to answer that, sir, in accordance with
my constitutional rights.

Mr, Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document, bear-
ing a signature, and ask you if you can identify that signature.

( Document handed to witness. )

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Greenberg. That appears to be my signature.

Mr. Arens. Would you say also that this photostatic document en-
titled, "Application for Federal Employment," which was filled out

3426 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

by you, is a true and correct reproduction of the application for Fed-
eral employment filled out by you in 1946 ?

ISIr. Greexberg. Yes.

Mr. Arens. I invite your attention, Mr. Greenberg, specifically, to
Question No. 26. This document is dated June 5, 1946. Question 26
reads as follows :

Do you advocate or have you ever advocated, or are you now or have you ever
been a member of any organization that advocates the overthrow of the Govern-
ment of the United States by force or violence?

There are two columns appearing opposite that, one for "Yes" and
one for "No." In the column immediately opposite under which
appears "No," there appears an "X." Did you place that "X" in the
"No" column after question 26, which I have just read?

Mr. Greenberg. I must decline to answer that question, in accord-
ance with my constitutional rights.

Mr. Arens. Do you decline to tell this committee of the Congress
whether or not in the application form which you have identified and
on which you have identified your signature, you filled in the answer
to a particular question bearing upon your loyalty to the Government
you sought to serve ?

Mr. Spero. What is the question, Mr. Arens?

Mr. Greenberg. What is the question ?

Mr. Arens. Read it please, Mr. Reporter.

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)

Mr. Greenberg. I must decline to answer, sir, in accordance with
my constitutional rights.

Mr. Arens. Would you tell this committee that you did not place
this "X" in the column under "No" to question 26 bearing upon your
loyalty to this Government, in whose service you sought to gain
employment ?

Mr. Greenberg. I must decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Do you now honestly apprehend that if you told this
committee of the Congress the truth, as to whether or not in 1946 you
put an "X" in the "No" column as to whether or not you were then or
ever had been a member of the Comnumist Party, you would be sup-
plying information which could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ?

Mr. Greenberg. I have already indicated to you my status so far
as my loyalty to this Government

Mr. Arens. That is not answering the question. Do you honestly
apprehend that if you told this conmiittee of the Congress whether
or not this "X" after question No. 26, in the "No" column Avas placed
there by you, you would be supplying information which could be
used against you in a criminal proceeding?

Mr. Greenberg. I fear that it might.

Mr. Arens. Were you, as of June 5, 1946, the date of this form, a
person who had never been a member of the Comnumist Party?

Mr. Greenberg. I must decline to answer that question, in accord-
ance with my constitutional rights.

Mr. Arens. Did you make a truthful representation to your Gov-
ernment in June of 1946, with reference to your loyalty, wlien you
filled out this application for Federal employment?

Mr. Greenberg. I must decline to answer that question, in accord-
ance with my constitutional rights under the fifth amendment.

COaOIUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3427

Mr. Arexs. Did you, when you filled out this application form for
Federal employment, which bears the signature you have identified,
take cognizance of the statement appearing at the bottom of the form,
that a false statement on this application is punishable by law, and
that "I certif}' that the statements made by me in this application are
true, complete, and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief,
and are made in good faith"' ?

Mr. Greenberg. I must decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arexs. 1 respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, he be ordered
and directed to answer that question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. What
prosecution do you think j'ou might be confronted with if you would
answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

]\Ir. Greenberg. I decline, because I have a fear that it might be
used to my detriment.

]\Ir. Arens. The question merely asked if he was cognizant of the
language on the form. I respectfully request that he be directed to
answer the question.

The Chairman. Yes ; I direct that you answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Spero. Is there a pending question at this point? I do not
understand whether there is or is not a question.

Mr. Arens. Not as of the instant, no. He has failed to comply
with a direction from the committee to answer a question.

]\Ir. Spero. Is the question purely whether or not he read the Form
57 that you are showing him ?

Mr. Arens. No; he has identified this form and identified his signa-
ture. The question is whether or not he was cognizant of the language
appearing at the bottom of the form, very close to his signature, which
I have read, that a false statement on this form is punishable. That
is the essence of it, and he has declined to answer it. The chairman
lias directed him to answer it, and he still declines to answer it.

I should now like to ask another question : Did you have knowledge
of the existence of a Communist cell in the Department of Labor
while you were employed there?

Mr. Greenberg. I must decline to answer that question, in accord-
ance with my constitutional rights.

Mr. Arens. "Was this union you described a while ago of which you
were a member controlled by tlie Communist Party or was it con-
trolled by persons known by you to be Communists ?

(At this point. Representative Willis entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Greenberg. This union to which I belonged, sir, was controlled
by its membership which varied between 300 and 400.

Mr. Arens. How man}- people in that union, to your certain knowl-
edge, were members of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Greenberg. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Were there some people in that union who, to your
certain knowledge, were members of the Communist Party?

Mr. Greenberg. I decline to answer that.

Mr. Arens. Were j^ou ever a member of the American League for
Peace and Democracy?

Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir ; I was.

3428 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Do you recall the approximate dates that you were a
member of the American League for Peace and Democracy ?

Mr. Greenberg. I would say about 1937 or 1938 and 1939— some-
where in there.

Mr. Arens. Were you ever a member of the Washington Bookshop ?

Mr. Greenberg. I joined that to take advantage of a membership
discount, and that was entirely the extent of my membership or
participation.

Mr. Arens. Were you ever a member of the Washington Committee
for Democratic Action ?

Mr. Greenberg. I have no recollection of whether I was a member
of that organization.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, as I indicated at the outset of the in-
terrogation of this witness, we heard him in executive session, so this
will conclude the staff's interrogation in this public session.

The Chairman. Are there any questions ?

If not, the witness is excused.

Mr. Greenberg. Thank you.

Mr. Arens. We have one more witness. If the chairman please,
the next witness will be Mr. Robert R. Ehrlich, E-h-r-1-i-c-h.

Mr, Ehrlich, will you kindly come forward ? Raise your right hand
and be sworn.

The Chairman. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?

Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OP ROBERT R. EHRLICH, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

VICTOR RABINOWITZ

Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.

(At this point, Representative Scherer entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Ehrlich. My name is Robert Ehrlich. I live in Springfield,
Mass. I am self-employed.

Mr. Arens. In what line of business, Mr. Ehrlich ?

Mr. Ehrlich. I make a number of small manufactured items such
as plastic advertising items, paper items, things like that.

Mr. Arens. And for purposes of identification, please tell us the
name of the company.

Mr. Ehrlich. Tracy's Co.

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?

Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?

Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself ?

Mr. Rabinowitz. Victor Rabinowitz, New York.

Mr. Arens. Give us the name of the firm, please.

Mr. Rabinowitz. Rabinowitz and Boudin, 25 Pine Street, N. Y.

Mr. Arens. Kindly give us a thumbnail sketch of your early back-
ground, where you were born, when, and a word of your education.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3429

(At this point Representative Moulder entered the hearig room.)

Mr. Ehrlich. I was born in Massachusetts in 1908. I was edu-
cated in the public schools, at Harvard College and the Harvard Busi-
ness School.

Mr. Arens. When did you graduate from Harvard ?

Mr. Ehrlich. I graduated from the college in 1929 and from the
business school in 1931.

Mr. Arens. Will you give us in comparable order, please, Mr.
Ehrlich, a sketch of the employments which you have had since you
completed your formal education ?

Mr. Ehrlich. After leaving the business school in 1931, I was em-
ployed in a series of miscellaneous jobs. One was in a department
store, one was for a boys camp, for about a year. And then I worked
for the RKO Corp. in New York City for about 15 months in 1933
and 1934.

May I refer to a paper on which I have jotted down this employ-
ment t

Mr. Arens. Yes; that would be helpful to the committee. We just
want a skeleton outline of it.

Mr. Ehrlich. In June of 1935, 1 was employed by the Resettlement
Administration in Washington and I remained there until September
1936.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you employed in the Resettle-
ment Administration ?

Mr. Ehrlich. I was Chief of a Records Section in the Management
Division, and then I think Assistant Chief of a Finance Section in the
Finance and Comptroller Division.

Mr. Arens. During the course of that employment, when you were
Chief of the Records Section of the Resettlement Administration in
Washington, did you have access to confidential or restricted
information ?

Mr. Ehrlich. I believe not, sir.

Mr. Arens. Proceed.

Mr. Ehrlich. From September 1936 to July 1937, 1 was employed
hy a subcommittee of the Senate Committee on Education and Labor,
under Senate Resolution 266.

Mr. Arens. What subcommittee ?

Mr. Ehrlich. That was the La Follette.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you employed there ?

Mr. Ehrlich. I was employed as an investigator for the committee,
and an assistant in the preparation of hearings.

Mr. Arens. When you were with the La Follette subcommittee, did
you know a lady by the name of Bertha Blair ?

Mr. Ehrlich. I do not recall that name at all, sir.

Mr. Arens. We will pick it up from there. Your next employment,
please, sir ?

Mr, Ehrlich. I was next employed by the National Labor Rela-
tions Board, from July 1937 until July 1942, as an examiner in the
New York office of the Board.

Mr. Arens. Proceed.

Mr. Ehrlich. From July 1942 until November 1942, 1 was employed
in the New York office, the regional office, of the Office of Price
Administration.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity, please, sir?

3430 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Ehrlich. I believe my title was Chief Investigator.

Mr. Arens. Chief Investigator for the New York area for OPA?

Mr. Ehrlich. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Arens. May I ask at this point, did you have access to con-
fidential or restricted information when you were Chief Investigator
for the OPA?

Mr. Ehrlich. I don't believe we had any such classifications of
information, but all Government records are confidential in a sense.
They were case records of investigations, yes.

Mr. Arens. Kindly proceed with your next employment.

Mr. Ehrlich. From November 1942 until December 1943, I was
with the National Labor Relations Board, again, in the New York
office, the New York regional office, as assistant regional director.

Mr. Arens. Who was the director there? Bring us up on that,
would you, please ?

Mr. Ehrlich. At that time, I believe, through the entire period
which I last mentioned, Mr. Douds was the director, though it is
possible that Elinore M. Herrick may have been director part of that
time. She was the director preceding Mr. Douds.

Mr. Arens. Proceed.

Mr. Ehrlich. From December 1943 until some time around March,
and I have been unable to identify the exact time, in 1944, I was the
assistant director of the field division of the National Labor Relations
Board in Washington, or I was one of the assistant directors.

Mr. Arens. Continue.

Mr. Ehrlich. From June 1944, roughly, or March somewhere in
that period, to some time about the beginning of 1947. 1 believe, I was
again with the Office of Price Administration in the Washington
office, in the enforcement division.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?

Mr. Ehrlich. As Chief Investigator.

Mr. Arens. Was that just for the Washington area that you were
Chief Investigator, or was that Chief Investigator for the Nation ?

Mr. Ehrlich. It was Chief Investigator for the Nation in a training
sense.

Mr. Arens. You miglit give us a little more explanation on that.

Mr. Ehrlich. The Washington office had no operating function
with respect to investigations in most cases. My function as Chief
Investigator in the Washington office was to set standards for investi-
gations, to provide for the training of investigators, for the recruitment
of investigators for certain administrative budget estimates and things
of that kind, covering the Investigative Division, and also to take
direct charge of the Criminal Investigation Division, which had to do
with the apprehension of counterfeiters of ration stamps, and other
distinctly criminal violations of the statutes, and I had direct charge
of that sroup, which was national.

Mr. Arens. Was that from 1944 to 1947 (
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Give us your next employment, please.
Mr. Ehrlich. I believe toward the latter part of that period, I was
technically an employee of the Department of Agriculture, because
part of enforcement was assigned to Agriculture at some point, the
Sugar Rationing Administration, I think, as the OPA budget was
chopped off. After that employment, which I believe terminated early

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNIMENT 3431

in 1947 or somewhere thereabouts, I chose not to exercise my perma-
nent right to return to the National Labor Rehitions Board where I
had civil service status, but left the Government service of my own.

Mr. Arens. Is that when you started your own business ?

Mr. EiiRLiCH. That is correct. I started my own business.

Mr. Arens. Is it a plastics business '^

Mr. Ehrlich. Yes.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your employment in the Federal
Government, did you make the acquaintanceship or know a person by
the name of Alexander Stevens ?

Mr. Ehrlich. That name does not mean anything to me, sir.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person, or have contact with,a person,
by the name of J. Peters ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ehrlich. I will respectfully decline to answer that question,
and I assert my privilege under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. AVhy ?

Mr. Ehrlich. Because I believe that to answer that question may
tend to subject me to criminal prosecution, however unjustifiably.

Mr. Arens. I am a little puzzled by your last phrase. Did you say
'"however unjustifiably f*

Mr. Ehrlich. However unjustifiable such a prosecution might be.

Mr. Arens. Since you suggested that any criminal prosecution of
you in connection with J. Peters would be unjustified, I ask you now
whether or not you are presently a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Ehrlich. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Ehrlich. Let me state that since I left Washington in 1947, I
l)elieve, I have had no connection with the Communist Party, and

Mr. MouT.DER. May I ask a question ?

The Chairman. Have you finished your answer.

Mr. Ehrlich. No ; and as to the period prior to my leaving Wash-
ington, I assert my privilege to decline to answer that question on the
same basis.

Mr. Moi'LDER. The question I have to ask is this : You say you are
not now a member of the Cyommunist Party ?

Mr. Ehrlich. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Moi LDER. Do you believe in the objectives, philosophy, and pur-
poses of tlie Communist Party ?

Mr. Ehrlich. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Are you under Communist Party discipline ?

Mr. Ehrlich. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party while you
were Chief Investigator for the OPA and had charge of recruiting
investigators for that Government agency ?

Mr. Ehrlich. I decline to answer that question for the same reason
as previously stated.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, and ask you to affirm or
deny the fact, that while you were in the Federal Government, in the
employ of the National Labor Relations Board, in New York City,
from 1937 to 1942, that you were in contact on Communist Party busi-
ness with J. Peters, also known as Alexander Stevens, w^ho was a top
international Cominf orm agent in America.

3432 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Ehrlich. I decline to answer that question, on the same grounds
as I previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you known a person by the name
of Ann Stevens, A-n-n ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ehrlich. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds
as previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Ann Stevens was the physical contact you had with J.
Peters, was she not ? Was she the courier between you and her hus-
band, Alexander Stevens, also known as J. Peters, a top Cominform
agent in the United States ?

Mr. Ehrlich. Is that a question ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir, it is a question.

Mr. Ehrlich. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds
as I have previously stated.

Mr. Arens. How many people did you actually recruit into the
Federal service when you were chief investigator for the OPA, from
1944 until 1947?

Mr. Ehrlich. Might I ask you to define that a little? Do you mean
personally have anything to do with hiring

Mr. Arens. How many were recruited as investigators under your
supervision and control ? I am under the impression, and more than
an impression, you testified that from 1944 to 1947 you were chief
of investigations for the OPA, and part of your assignment was to re-
cruit investigators, or to supervise recruiting of investigators.

]\fr. Ehrlich. Yes.

Mr. Arens. How many of those investigators were recruited under
your supervision ?

Mr. Ehrlich. A good many investigators, but not by my direct
hiring or having anything to do with individual applicants. My job
had to do primarily with the drawing of standards for the qualifica-
tions of investigators in certain grades of civil service.

Mr. Arens. In that process of recruiting investigators into the Gov-
ernment of tlie United States and specifying the standards, did you
receive, in the course of your work, any direction, suggestions, orders,
from a person known by you to be a member of the Communist Party ?

(Tlip witness conferred with his counsel.)

JN'fr. Ehrlich. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Did J. Peters give you any instructions, orders, or
suggestions with reference to any of your activities?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ehrlich. I respectfully decline to answer that question on the
same grounds as previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you would tell this
committee of the Congress whether or not you received instructions,
orders, or directions from J. Peters, a top international Cominform
agent, while you were chief investigator for the OPA, you would
be supplying information which could be used against you in a crim-
inal proceeding?

Mr. Ehrlich. I believe that my testimony might, however un-
justifiably, be used against me or to involve me, in a criminal pro-
ceeding.

Mr. Arens. Let us consider that "however unjustifiably." Would
it be unjustifiable if you were prosecuted on the basis of facts you

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3433

would be revealing to this committee if you told the truth with re-
spect to your relationships with J. Peters?

Mr. Ehrlich. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds
as previously stated.

Mr. Arens. During 1943 and 1944, while you were in the employ
of the National Labor Relations Board in Washington, D. C, were
you then a member of the Communist conspiracy ?

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Ehrlich. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds
as I have previously stated.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your employment in the National
Labor Relations Board, did you know a person by the name of Joseph
B. Robison?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ehrlich. If I knew him at all, it was most casually, in the
course of employment.

Mr. Arens. Well, do you have a recollection of knowing him ?

Mr. Ehrlich. Very vaguely, sir.

Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of knowing him in any re-
lationship to the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ehrlich. I will respectfully decline to answer that question
on the same grounds as I previously stated.

Mr. Arens. During this period, and the period I am talking about
now is 1943 and 1944, when you were in the National Labor Relations
Board in Washington, D. C, did you know a person by the name of
David Rein, R-e-i-n?

Mr. Ehrlich. I knew a David Rein who was an attorney for the
Board, and I may have known him casually.

Mr. Arens. Is that the extent of your acquaintanceship with David
Rein ?

]Mr. Ehrlich. That was the extent of it.

]\Ir. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Woodrow
Sandler, S-a-n-d-1-e-r ?

j\Ir. Ehrlich. That name does not mean anything to me.

Mr. Moulder. As to the person you say you knew casually, David
Rein, did you e^'er attend any meetings or conferences with him
independent of your official duties ?

Mr. Ehrlich. "VN-lien I say I knew him casually, sir, what I mean is
that I was aware that there was such a person in the Board, and I
might have had a "hello" acquaintance with him in the hallways, and
that is the extent of the acquaintance that I mean to indicate by saying
that I knew him casually.

INIr. IVIouLDER. Did you ever attend any meetings or any conferences
with him?

Mr. Ehrlich. Do you mean in the course of my employment?

Mr. MoLTLDER. Outside of your official work in the Government.

Mr. Ehrlich. As to that, sir, I respectfully decline to answer your
question, for the same reasons that I previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Jacob H. Krug,
K-r-u-g ?

Mr. Ehrlich. The same answer as to David Rein. I may have
known him casually. All these people worked in a division of the
Board which was different from mine.

3434 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Aside from the casual acquaintanceship, did you know
him in any capacity in an organization outside of your routine
employment activities ?

Mr. Ehrlich. I will respectfully decline to answer that question on
the same grounds as previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Harry Cooper,
C-o-o-p-e-r ?

Mr. Ehrlich. That name doesn't mean anything to me.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Ruth Weyand,
W-e-y-a-n-d, whose name may have been Ruth Weyand Perry. She
goes under the name of Ruth Weyand, and her married name is Perry.

Mr. Ehrlich. If I knew her at all, it was in the same very slight
manner as I indicated with respect to the answer to Congressman
Moulder's question.

Mr. Arens. Let us be a little more specific on that. I think we are
all vague on that. We are not now pressing 3'ou for your knowledge
of an acquaintanceship within the course of your employment. We
want to collect your best recollection to tell us whether or not you
have ever known a person by the name of Ruth Weyand, W-e-y-a-n-d,
in any capacity outside of the speaking acquaintanceship which you
apparently had with her in the National Labor Relations Board.

Mr. Ehrlich. I didn't say I had a speaking acquaintance with her,
because really the name means almost nothing to me, except that I
am aware that there was such a person employed by the Board. I
may have known her by sight, though I do not now recall what she
looks like, but I have no further knowledge than that.

Mr. Arens. To the best of your recollection is that the extent of
your acquaintanceship with her ?

Mr. Ehrlich. That is, yes.

Mr. Arens. Was your clisassociation from the Federal Government
occasioned directly or indirectly by any loyalty investigation instituted
towards yourself ?

Mr. Ehrlich. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever, to your knowledge, been the subject of
a loyalty investigation ?

Mr. Ehrlich. I was the subject of a good many investigations on
the occasion of each of my employments, I believe. I believe those in-
vestigations took into their scope questions of my loyalty. But I
do not believe, nor have I ever had any reason to believe, that any
of the agencies for which I worked or any of the investigative agencies
of the United States Government or any of my supervisors had any
reason to question my loyalty and my devotion to the job which I held.

Mr. Arens. During all of this time that you have been talking
about, were you a member of the Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. Ehrlich. I will respectfully decline to answer your question
for the same reasons as I have previously stated.

Mr. Arens. In view of your philosophical dissertation here on
loyalty

Mr. Ehrlich. It is a factual dissertation.

Mr. Arens. - — ■ — and your attitude toward your job, I would like
to ask you this: whether or not you feel a person could be as loyal,
as devoted to his job, and as productive in good, patriotic interests
of his Nation as you have described yourself if he were a member of
the Communist Party?

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3435

Mr. EiiRLiCH. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Do you feel that it would be inconsistent to be as loyal
as you say you were and to be a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. EiiRLicii. I hesitate to give you a question and answer as to a
matter of opinion, but if I may consult wdtli my counsel, maybe I can
give you an answer.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. EiiRLiCH. I think I will not answer questions of opinion of
that kind and get into an argument or discussion with you.

Mr. Arens. The question was only posed because of your character-
ization of yourself being so loyal. I wanted to see whether or not
you felt that a person could be as loyal as you say you were and still
be a member of the Communist Party or whether or not it was
inconsistent.

Mr. Ehrlich. I do not wish to discuss it, but I do wish to reaffirm
what I said.

Mr. Sgiierer. You said you were not going to answer that ques-
tion, but you did not give any reason for refusing to answer counsel's
question.

]\Ir. Ehrlich. I stated I thought it Avas a matter of opinion and that
I didn't wish to argue it with him.

Mr. ScHERER. Is that the only reason you are not answering it,
because it is a matter of opinion?

(The witness conferred Avith his counsel.)

Mr. Epirlich. Yes, sir.

Mr. ScHERER. Then I ask you to direct the witness to answ^er the
question, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Have you conferred with your attorney?

I direct you to answer the question.

(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ehrlich. I will respectfully decline to answer that question
on the same grounds as my refusal for answering previous questions,
namely the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your employment in the Federal
Government, did you at any time, procure or transmit any informa-
tion to a person not authorized by law to receive the same?

Mr. Ehrlich. No, sir, never.

Mr. Arens. Do you have any information or knowledge respecting
the transmission of any information to a person not authorized by
law to receive the same?

Mr. Ehrlich. No, sir.

Committee members present at this point: The Chairman, Repre-
sentatives Scherer, Moulder, and Willis.)

Mr. Arens. I think, Mr. Chairman, I have covered the items that
the staff liad in mind.

]VIr. Willis. I would like to ask 2 or 3 questions.

Did I understand you to say that you were the Director of the Sugar
Rationing Administration for aw^hile?

Mv. Ehrlich. The Director of Enforcement, sir.

Mr. Willis. Director of Enforcement ?

Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.

Mr. Willis. And I understand that you were transferred to that
position in about April of 1947?

70811— 56— pt. 5 5

3436 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. EiiRLicH. I believe it was some time about then, yes.

Mr. Willis. And you remained in that position for some four or five
months ?

Mr. EriRLiCH. That would be about right, yes.

Mr. Willis. Were you in charge of the whole enforcement division?
By that I mean, approximately how many employees did you have
under you in that position ?

Mr. Ehrlicii. I believe there were rather few. Perhaps as many
as 10 or 20. But I am not quite sure because there was a paper dis-
tinction between OPA and the Sugar Rationing Administration of
the Department of Agriculture, so that I believe it occasioned the fill-
ing out of papers and applications and things of that kind ; there was,
in fact, a rather gradual tapering off of Office of Price Administra-
tion activities. We occupied the same offices and carried on the same
work while the agency was terminated. So all of these activities came
down to naught in the end. I think, but I am not sure, that during
the period of which you speak, there were only, perhaps, 10 or 20 peo-
ple in that particular division.

Mr. Willis. You were transferred from OPA to the Sugar Ration-
ing Administration in the Department of Agriculture?

Mr. p]iiRLicii. That is right, sir. I believe it was.

Mr. Willis. Did I understand you to say that although you were
transferred from OPA to the Sugar Rationing Administration, you
still occupied the same physical space that you occupied as an OPA
employee ?

Mr. EiiRLicii. I believe we did, yes. Just a moment. There was,
toward the end of OPA, a change in locale. OPA was at one time
in a building not too far from here, a large office building. For the
last part of its existence, I believe it was in a temporary Navy build-
ing down near the Reflecting Pool, It could be that the move to tluit
building took place at the time the change in jurisdiction of the
agency took place, but I think not. I don't know.

Mr. Willis. Am I correct in assuming that you did not come in
too close contact with the regular employees of the Sugar Rationing
Administration in the normal administration of the Sugar Act '?

Mr. Ehrlicii. No. We were the stepchildren of Agriculture and
off in a distinct section with terminating duties, and our contact with
the Sugar branch were intermittent and through the Solicitor's office.
I did present matters to the Solicitor.

Mr. Willis. To the solicitor of the Sugar Rationing Adminis-
tration ?

Mr. Ehrlich. His title was — no, I believe he was a solicitor for
more than the Sugar branch, but I am not quite sure what his scope
was. He was a very dignified white haired gent whom you may re-
member, of Virginia origin, I believe, for a long time solicitor of the
Department of Agriculture. I can't quite identify him.

Mr. Willis. Who was your superior, during the time you were with
the Sugar Rationing Administration ?

Mr. Ehrlicii. I believe technically he was my superior at that
point.

Mr. AViLLis. Then he had additional duties to monitor or police the
sugar rationing program ?

Mr. Ehrlich. I am quite sure he did.

Mr. Willis. But he was not a regular employee, as far as you
know, of the Sugar Rationing Administration ?

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3437

Mr. EiiRLicH. I believe he was higher than the Sugar branch itself.

Mr. Willis. Do you remember his name?

Mr. Ehrlich. It slips my mind. He was well known as either the,
or a, Solicitor of the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. Willis. I ask these questions, Mr. Chairman, because it so
happens that I represent the largest sugar-producing district in the
United States, and I wanted to know specifically — and I think I have
developed sufficiently for my purpose — the connection of this witness'
employment with the normal administration of the Sugar Actj and
the regular employees with the Sugar division that still administers
that act.

]\Ir. Ehrlich. Outside of the OPA aspects of that act, we had, let
me say, nothing to do with it in OPA, outside of the temporary OPA
provisions affecting sugar allocations.

Mr. Willis. Of course the sugar people were very much interested
in the administration by OPA, too, l3ut I was primarily directing my
question as to the Sugar Rationing Administration. You cannot tell
me the name of the attorney whom you regarded as your superior in
tliat he was the solicitor in charge of prosecution or recommending
prosecution ? You say you cannot remember his name '?

Mr. Ehrlich, I cannot remember. I will be glad to send it in to
you, if I can think of it. It is one of those things that I can almost
think of.

Mr. Willis. Did you, as Director of the Sugar Rationing Admin-
istration, have charge of the enforcement program, in the field offices
througliout the United States, or only of tlie Wasliington office?

Mr. Ehrlich. I believe at the time that this occurred, and in those
late stages, tliat I had nothing to do with field offices, but jnst with
the termination of the affairs of the agency here. That was the pri-
mary job that remained.

(At this point Chairman Walter left the hearing room.)

Mr. Willis. I should ask you this question : Were any of your co-
employees during the term of your employment in the Suirnr Ration-
ing Administration, known to you to have been Communists?

Mr. RvBiNow^iTz. Would you mind repeating the question?

Mr. Ehrlich. I am not sure of the question, and tJ\is is not in re-
sponse to the question at the moment. I indicated that my acquaint-
ance with employees in Agriculture other than with the Solicitor,
who was above this, I believe, was practically nonexistent. I do not
recall the name of a single employee in Agriculture proper in the
Sugar branch. I don't know any. If I did know any, it was in the
most casual employment sense, the manner which I have previously
stated or defined as a casual knowledge of a person. There were
offices in the Office of Price Administration that had working connec-
tions with sugar rationing, or the Sugar branch, but they were not
the enforcement branch with which I was connected. They were the
price branches, and the rationing branches, with which I had nothing
to do.

Mr. Willis. Wliile you were employed by OPA, did you have
charge of the administration of the OPA rules regarding rationing
of sugar ?

Mr. Ehrlich. No, sir. That was under the — that was set up, de-
termined, and the rules were issued by the Sugar Rationing Branch
of OPA, which was in a different division altogether.

3438 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Willis. What were your duties with OPA prior to your trans-
fer to the Sugar Rationino; Administration, Agriculture Department?

Mr. Ehelich. Those which I have indicated as chief investigator
for setting up standards of training, recruitment and so forth.

Mr. Willis. That was part of enforcement ?

Mr. Ehrlich. That was Enforcement, yes, sir. All investigation
was a subdivision of Enforcement.

Mr. Willis. Then while you were employed with OPA, your duties
did encompass or could have encompassed the administration by OPA
so far as it affected sugar, as well as other commodities ?

Mr. Ehrlich. Could have affected enforcement actions.

Mr. Willis. Do you recall any enforcement actions involving sugar
that came under your direction, supervision, or control while you were
with OPA?

Mr. Ehrlich. There were a number. I do not recall any individual
case, but there were cases of counterfeited sugar-rationing stamps
which my office pursued. We convicted a number of people of counter-
feiting, and so forth.

Mr. Willis. That is all.

Mr. Arens. I have one question, if you please, Mr. Chairman.

Was your employment in OPA or any agency of the Federal Gov-
ernment procured for you, directly or indirectly by any person known
by you to have been a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Ehrlich. No, sir.

Mr. Moulder (presiding). The witness will be excused.

You may claim your witness fees from the clerk.

As directed by Chairman Walter open hearings of this committee
will be recessed until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. The committee
will now go, into executive session to hear the testimony of additional
witnesses.

(Whereupon, at 3:56 p. m. February 29, 1956 the committee re-
cessed, to reconvene in open hearings at 10 a. m., March 1, 1956.)

(Present at the taking of the recess: Representatives Moulder,
Willis, and Scherer.)

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF
GOVERNMENT— PART 5

THURSDAY, MARCH 1, 1956

United States House of Representatives,

subcommitte of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,

Washington^ D. C.

PUBLIC HEARING

A snbcoinmittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 10 :10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the caucus room. Old House Office
Building, Hon. Francis E. Walter (chairman) presiding.

Committee members present: Representatives Walter, Willis,
Kearney, and Scherer.

Present at the convening of the session : The chairman. Represen-
tatives Kearney, and Willis.

Staff members present : Richard Arens, acting counsel, and Courtney
E. Owens, investigator.

The Chairman. The committee will come to order.

Call your witness, please. Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. Lawrence Raymond LaVallee, please.

Please remain standing a moment to be sworn.

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. LaVallee. I do.

TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE RAYMOND LAVALLEE, ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, IRA GOLLOBIN

Mr. Arens. Mr. LaVallee, the accoustics are poor. Will you kindly
keep your voice up for us ?

Please identify yourself by name, residence and occupation.

Mr. LaVallee. I am Lawrence Raymond LaVallee. I live at 147
West Louther, Carlisle, Pa., and I am a college professor.

Mr. Arens. In what college are you a professor ?

Mr. LaVallee. Dickinson College.

Mr. Arens. Where is that located ?

Mr. LaVallee. Carlisle, Pa.

Mr. Arens. And you are represented today by counsel ?

Mr. LaVallee. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself for the record?

Mr. Gollobin. Ira Gollobin, New York City.
' Mr. Arens. What courses do you teach in college ?

3439

3440 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. LaVallee. A variety of courses in economics.

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?

Mr. LaVallee. Yes.

Mr. Akens. Mr. LaVallee, we have a rather narrow area in which
we want to interrogate you, but we would like you to give us a very
brief, succinct rundown of your personal background. First, where
were you born and when ?

Mr. LaVallee. December 3, 1913, Worcester, Mass.

Mr. Arens. Give us a word, if you please, sir, about your formal
education.

Mr. LaVallee. I finished high school in 1932 in that same city.
I went to college in 1937. I received my A. B. at the University of
Colorado in 1940. I received my masters degree at Indiana University
in 1911. I went back to college in 1949 and received my Ph D. from
Syracuse University. Syracuse, N. Y., in 1953.

Mr. Arens. Kindly give us a brief comparable sketch of the employ-
ment you have had since you finished your formal education.

Mr. LaVallee. I finished my formal education in 1953.

Mr. Arens. Give us a sketch, if you please, of the employments
you have had.

Mr. Willis. Will the witness speak a little louder.

Mr. LaVallee. Since 1953?

Mr. Arens. Yes. Where have you worked ?

Mr. LaVallee. INIississippi Southern College, Hattiesburg, INIiss.,
and at Dickinson College, Carlisle, Pa.

Mr. Arens. Have you been an instructor in economics at the Indiana
University?

Mr. LaVallee. I had an assistantship there. It might be con-
sidered a part-time instructorship.

Mr. Arens. What year was that ?

Mr. LaVallee. That was 1941 and 1942, 1 imagine.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been employed by the United States
Government?

Mr. LaVallee.. Yes, I have.

Mr. Arens. Please give us the dates of your employment and the
agencies in which you were employed.

May I again request you to keep your voice up so that your testi-
mony can be heard by the members of the committee.

Mr. LaVallee. This is 14 years ago. As much as I can recall, I
was employed by the Lend-Lease Administration from about July
1942 to November 1942.

Mr. Arens. Where ?

Mr. LaVallee. I believe I was assistant economist in Washington,
D.C.

Mr. Arens. Proceed.

Mr. LaVallee. Then I transferred to the War Labor Board in
December of that year, 1942, and worked with the War Labor Board in
Denver. Colo, until I was

Mr. Willis. The National War Labor Board ?

Mr. LaVallee. Yes.

Mr. Willis. In Denver?

Mr. LaVallee. Denver, Colo., until I was inducted in the service
in January of 1944.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3441

Mr. Arens. If you will pause there, what was your job with the
National War Labor Board in Denver, Colo. ?

Mr. LaVali.ee. Economist for the Non-ferrous Metals Division.

Mr. Arens. Durini^ the course of your employment with the Na-
tional AVar Labor Board in Denver, did you have occasion to know a
person by the name of Herbert Fuchs ?

Mr. LaVallee. I would like to claim the privilege of the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. AVhy?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. I decline to discuss the reasons.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee whether or not you have known a person by the name of Her-
bert Fuchs you would be supplying information which could be used
against you in a criminal proceeding?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. It is possible.

Mr. Arens. Are you now or have you ever been a member of the
Communist Party?

]Mr. LaVallee. I would like to plead the fifth amendment on the
question.

Mr. Arens. Who is Dr. William Edell, E-d-e-1-1 ?

Mr. LaVallee. I would like to plead the fifth amendment on that
question.

Mr. Arens. Dr. Edell is president of Dickinson College, is he not?

Mr. LaVallee. Yes.

Mr. Arens. After you received your

Mr. WiLi>is. Is that where he is now instructing ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

After you received your subpena to appear before this committee,
did you have a conversation with Dr. Edell ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. I would like to plead the fifth amendment on that
question.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee the truth as to whether or not you had a conversation with the
president of the college by which you are employed, you would be
supplying information which could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?

Mr. LaVallee. It might.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that after you were served a subpena to appear before the
House Committee on Un-American Activities, you did have a con-
versation with Dr. Edell, and that you told him, in effect, that you
were not and had never been a member of the Communist Party, but
that in your appearance before the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities, you would invoke the fifth amendment. Is that true
or is that false ?

Mr. LaValee. I would like to plead the fifth amendment.

3442 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Aeens. You recognize, of course, that when you were having
your conversation with Dr. Eclell, and when you were denying Com-
munist Party membersliip, you were not under oath, were you?

Mr. LaVallee. I would like to plead the fifth amendment on that
question.

Mr. Arens. You recognize, too, of course, that on this record, before
this committee, at this time, you are under oath, and that if you deny
your Communist Party membership or affiliation, and it is proven on
you, you will be subject to the pains and penalties of perjury, is that
correct ?

Mr. LaVallee. I would like to plead the fifth amendment on that
question.

Mr. Arens. Do you propose, after you leave this committee and
are released from the obligations of your oath, to step out in that hall
or return to Dickinson College, and tell the doctor and tell the faculty,
"Of course I am not a Communist, but I am not going to tell that witch-
hunting committee that I was or was not a Communist," is that what
you propose to do ?

Mr. LaVallee. I would like to plead the fifth amendment on that
question.

Mr. Arens. Tell us the organizations with which you were allied
while you were employed by the National War Labor Board in
Denver.

Mr. LaVallee. I don't recall any organizations I did belong to.

Mr. Arens. Did you belong to the Communist Party?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Is that an organization ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.

Mr. Arens. Did vou know a person in Denver by the name of
Gerald J. Matchett, M-a-t-c-h-e-t-t ?

Mr. LaVallee. I invoke the fif tli amendment.

Mr. Arens. Keep your voice up, please.

Mr. LaVallee. All right.

Mr. Arens. With whom did vou live when you were in Denver ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.

Mr. Arens. The truth is that you lived with your wife part of the
time, did you not ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. I claim the fifth amendment.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question. Did
you live with your wife part of the time while you were in Denver?

(The witness conferred with liis counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. All right. I lived with my wife part of the time.

Tlie Chairman. What did you say ?

Mr. LaVallee. Yes.

The Chairman. Why did you not answer the question when you
were first asked ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. I have given it further thought.

Mr. Arens. Who else, besides your wife, lived with you in Denver
in the house which you rented or occupied ?

Mr. LaVallee. The fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Wliat do you mean the fifth amendment ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the privilege of the fifth amendment.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3443

Mr. Arens. What privilege ?

Mr. LaVallee. The privilege not to answer questions that might
tend to incriminate me.

Mr. Arens. The truth is that you and your wife lived together with
Gerald and Margaret Matchett at Denver, is that not a fact ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. I claim the privilege.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you, Mr. LaVallee, a photostatic copy of a
document entitled "Personnel Affidavit" with a signature appearing
at the bottom of it, of L. Raymond LaVallee, and the date of this docu-
ment is June 30, 1942. I ask you if you can identify that signature.

( Document handed to witness. )

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee, I would also like to plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Keep your voice up, please.

Mr. LaVallee. 1 would like to plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. This document contains an affidavit that the affiant, who
is L. Raymond LaVallee has never been a member of any organization
that advocates the overthrow of the Government of the United States
by force or violence. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affrm or
deny the fact, that that is your signature to this document which I have
just displayed to you, and that you did make that affidavit on June 30,
1942, which I have just recited.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. I claim the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Keep your voice up, please, Mr. LaVallee.

Mr. LaVallee. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. After you have been released from your oath here, do
you propose when you get back to Dickinson College, to tell the board
of directors, the regents, or the president, something other than what
you have told us with respect to this personnel affidavit ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you another photostatic copy of a document,
entitled "United States Civil Service Commission, Declaration of
Appointee," on which there is a signature of an L. Raymond LaVallee,
of June 30, 1942. I ask you whether or not that is your signature at
the end of the document.

( Document handed to witness. )

Mr. LaVallee. I would like to plead the privilege of the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Kearney. I cannot hear the witness.

Mr. LaVallee. I would like to plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that that is your signature to this document.

Mr. LaVallee. The same answer, I plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I now invite your attention to question No. 18 of
this document, to which appears the answer "No" in handwriting after
the question :

Are you a member of any Communist or German Bund organization or any
political party or organization which advocates the over-throw of our Constitu-
tional form of Government in the United States or do you have membership in
or any aflSliation with any group, association or organization which advocates,
or lends support to any organization or movement advocating the overthrow of
our Constitutional form of Government in the United States?

3444 COIVIMTJNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

I ask you if you were the person who affixed the "No" answer after
question. No. 18, which I have just read to you.

]SIr. La Vallee. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. After you are released from your oath by this committee
and return to Dickinson College and are confronted by the president
and the board of regents of that institution do you propose to again
assert, as you have asserted, that you are not now or you never have
been a member of the Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. La Vallee. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment on that
question.

Mr. Arens. In other words, do you feel that if you told this com-
mittee the truth as to what you intend to do when you get back to
that college with reference to your Communist Party membership, you
would be supplying information which could be used against you in
a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. La Vallee. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment on that,

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that last question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. La Vallee. It is possible that I might.

Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of a docu-
ment, entitled "Application for Federal Employment," and the date
of the application is November 17, 1942. I direct your attention spe-
cifically to a signature — to an affidavit which appears at the end of
that document — a signature of a person known as L. Raymond
La Vallee. I ask you if that is your signature.

( Document handed to witness. )

]\Ir. La Vallee. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you would tell this
committee whether or not that is your signature to this document you
would be revealing information which could be used against you in a
criminal proceeding?

Mr, La Vallee. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr, Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.

The Chairman. Yes ; you are directed to answer that question.

!Mr. La Vallee, It might.

Mr. Arens. In this particular document which I have just laid be-
fore you, I invite your attention specifically to question No. 17:

do you advocate or have you ever advocated, or are you now or have you ever
been a member of any organization that advocates the overthrow of the Gov-
ernment of the United States by force and violence. If so, give complete details,
and so forth.

In the column opposite question 17, there is an "X" under "No." I
ask you whether or not you are the person that affixed that "X" or
caused it to be affixed in that column "No."

Mr. La Vallee. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens, Do you honestly apprehend if you gave this committee
a truthful answer to the question I just posed, you would be furnish-
ing information which would be used against you in a criminal pro-
ceeding?

Mr, La Vallee, I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3445

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

Mr. LaVallee. It might.

Mr. Arens. What did you say you teach at Dickinson College?

Mr. LaVallee. Economics.

Mr. Arens. How many students do you have in your class?

Mr. LaVallee. Altogether ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, those you enlighten on economic subjects.

Mr. LaVallee. About 80.

Mr. Arens. What is the age group there? College, I take it they
are freshmen, sophomores, juniors, seniors ?

Mr. LaVallee. Sophomores to seniors.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been teaching economics ?

Mr. LaVallee. These courses ? Ten years or so.

Mr. Arens. In what schools have you been teaching for 10 years?
Just enumerate the schools.

Mr. LaVallee. Toledo University, Toledo, Ohio.

Mr. Arens. Give us the date on that. Were you a member of the
Communist conspiracy when you were teaching at the University of
Toledo?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.

Mr. Arens. Take the next school and the next date.

Mr. LaVallee. Excuse me. The first was Indiana University that
you asked me about before. The second one was Toledo University.
That was 1942. In 1947, I was teaching at Oregon State College,
Corvallis, Oreg.

Mr. Arens. Did you teach economics there ?

Mr. LaVallee. I taught economics.

Mr. Arens. Let us have the next school and the date.

Mr. LaVallee. The next one was Syracuse University, Syracuse,

Mr. Arens. What did you teach there ?

Mr. LaVallee. I taught economics and statistics.

Mr. Arens. Let us have the next school please.

;Mr. LaVallee. The University of Wichita, 1951-53.

Mr. Arens. What did you teach there ?

Mr. LaVallee. Economics and statistics.

Mr. Arens. Let us have the other schools and the dates.

Mr. LaVallee. I also mentioned Mississippi Southern College.

Mr. Arens. Where is that located ?

Mr. LaVallee. Hattiesburg, Miss.

Mr. Arens. Doctor, would you kindly keep your voice up. We
cannot hear you.

Mr. AVillis. When was that ?

Mr. LaVallee. 1953 to 1955.

Mr. Arens. Is that a State university ?

Mr. LaVallee. It is a State school.

Mr. Arens. How did you happen to get that job ?

Mr. LaVallee. I made application for it.

Mr. Arens. Did you make a complete revelation to the authorities
of that university, as you did to the Federal Government, respecting
your background and activities and memberships ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.

3446 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. In other words, if you told this committee the truth as
to whether or not you have been lying to these various schools, in which
you have been teaching economics, you would be supplying informa-
tion which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding, is that
correct ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the privilege of the fifth amendment on that
question.

Mr. Arens. Continue with the schools in which you have been
teaching.

Mr. LaVallee. The last one is the Dickinson College, at Carlisle,
Pa., where I am presently employed.

Mr. Arens. To your knowledge has your disassociation from any
of these universities, schools, or colleges, with which you have been
identified, been occasioned by any question respecting your member-
ships in any organizations?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. It wasn't.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Herbert Fuchs testified before this committee that
while he was in the employ of the National War Labor Board in Den-
ver, Colo., sometime between 1943 and 1945, he knew you as a member
of the Communist conspiracy. Was Mr. Fuchs lying or was he tell-
ing the truth ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that you were a member of the Communist conspiracy in
Denver, Colo., at this period, between 1943 and 1945, while you were
employed by the National War Labor Board.

Mr. LaVallee. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Willis. V\^as that a Communist cell com.posed of Government
employees? Will you develop that? Did Mr. Fuchs so testify?

Mr. Arens. Yes, Mr. Willis.

Mr. Fuchs' testimony was that there were cells of the Communist
conspiracy here in Washington, and that after he, Fuchs, subse-
quently was engaged by the National War Labor Board at Denver,
Colo., he became affiliated then, I believe, with two cells. At least,
he gave the identification of persons who, to his certain knowledge,
were members of the Communist conspiracy at Denver, Colo., includ-
ing Dr. LaVallee.

During the course of your employment at the National War Labor
Board in Denver, did you know a person by the name of Philip Reno ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of John W. Porter?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Margaret
Bennett Porter?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Mr. Martin
Kurasch ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment.

My. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Lillian Kurasch ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Edward
Scheunemann ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Did you know his wife, Cecelia Scheunemann?

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3447

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Gerald
Matchett?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.

Mr. Arens. What was your relationship with Gerald Matchett?
Would you tell this committee ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.

Mr. Arens. Why ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. I decline to give the reason for my exercise of the
privilege.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Margaret
Matchett?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.

Mr. Arens. How about Dwight Spencer ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that.

Mr. Arens. And Mary Spencer ?

Mr. LaVallee. The same.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Don Plumb?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a j^erson by the name of Arlyne Plumb ?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, that each and every one of
the persons whose names I have just read to you were comembers
with you in a Communist Party conspiracy at Denver, Colo., between
1943 and 1945, and ask you to affirm or deny it.

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.

Mr. Willis. Those were Government employees, is that correct,
Mr. Counsel ? Those persons whom you have named were Government
employees at that time?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir, under sworn testimony.

As a professor and as a doctor who has taught in several universities,"
I wonder if you could tell us where Gerald Matchett might be. He
was likewise a professor, was he not?

Mr. LaVallee. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment on
that, on both of those questions.

Mr. Arens. Where were you during the war ?

Mr. LaVallee. In the LTnited States.

Mr. Arens. Were you taken into the armed services ?

Mr. LaVallee. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Wliere did you spend most of your time during your
service ?

Mr. LaVallee. I guess most of it at Camp Lee, Va.

Mr. Arens. What branch of the service were you in ?

Mr. LaVallee. The Army Service Forces.

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?

Mr. LaVallee. The Army Service Forces.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Connnunist conspiracy
while you were in the Army Service Forces?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your service in the Army, did you
engage in Communist conspiratorial activities?

Mr. LaVallee. I plead the fifth amendment on tlie question.

3448 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Kearney. Did you take an oath of allegiance to the United
States Government when you entered the Armed Forces?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. LaVallee. Yes.

Mr. Kearney. You took the oath, is that right ?

Mr. LaVallee. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, that will conclude the staff interroga-
tion of this witness.

The Chairman. Are there any questions ?

Mr. Willis. No questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Kearney ?

Mr. Kearney. How many students are there in Dickinson College ?

Mr. LaVallee. At Dickinson ?

Mr. Ivearney. Yes.

Mr. LaVallee. It is a small college. There are about 850 students,
I believe.

Mr. Kearney. And you teach economics in that college ?

Mr. LaVallee. Yes.

Mr. Kearney. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman, but to
me this is a shocking exhibition of testimony of a professor who is
teaching the youth of this country.

The Chairman. I do not think this is an isolated case.

There are no further questions, Mr. LaVallee.

Mr. Arens. If you please, Mr. Chairman, the next witness will be
Mr. Nathan Witt.

Please remain standing and be sworn.

The Chairman. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?

Mr. Witt. I do.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I should like, for the purpose of the
record, to state that the present witness has been repeatedly identified
by such persons as Whittaker Chambers, Lee Pressman, and Louis
Budenz as a person who was a member of the Communist Party ; that
he, himself, has been on several occasions interrogated by congressional
committees, both on the House and on the Senate side. For that
reason, the interrogation of this witness will be confined to a rather
narrow scope, bearing upon the issues and the facts which have thus
far been developed in this particular series of hearings by the com-
mittee. We want to avoid so far as possible unnecessary duplication.

TESTIMONY OF NATHAN WITT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
CHARLES E. FORD

Mr. WiTP. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I have a very short statement
here I would like to read before I am questioned.

The Chairman. You may leave the statement. We will examine
it and determine whether or not we will make it a part of the record.
Under the rules, as you know, statements should be submitted before
the hearing.

Mr. Arens. Are you Nathan Witt?

Mr. Witt. I am.

COMMUNIST ESrriLTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3449

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today before the House Committee
on Un-American Activities in response to a subpena which was served
upon you ?

Mr. Witt. I am.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Witt. I am.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Ford. Charles E. Ford, 401 Third Street KW., Washing-
ton, D. C.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Witt, please tell us under -what other names you
have been known during the course of your life?

Mr. Witt. I am sorry, Mr. Arens, I am not sure I quite understand
your question.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever had any aliases?
Mr. Witt. No.

M r. Arens. Has your name always been Witt ?
Mr. Witt. That is a different question, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. The question, please, is : Has your name always been
Witt?

Mr. Witt. Please explain that one, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. What other name have you liad beside Witt?
Mr. Witt. Do you mean what other family name ?
Mr. Arens. Any name you have had beside the name Witt.
Mr. Witt. Mr. Chairman, I want to object to this question. I have
been asked this question, if I understand it, on other occasions when I
have appeared before congressional committees. I have objected on
those occasions because I felt that the only purpose of the question is

an anti-Semitic one and

The Chairman. You know that is not true.
Mr. Witt. You just listen to me, JNIr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I think it is a perfectly outrageous thing that you
would attempt to hide behind a fine people. I never even knew what
your religion was.

Mr. Witt. I didn't say you did, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I know what you are talking about.
Mr. Witt. Will you listen to me ?

The Chairman. No, I will not listen to you. You ought to be
ashamed of yourself. You bring disrespect by a dishonest repre-
sentation.

Proceed, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. W^ould you please, Mr. Witt, tell us the names which
you have had in the course of your life ?

Mr. Witt. Mr. Chairman, I will refuse to answer this question,

and I think I am entitled to state for the record

The Chairman. For what reason do you refuse to answer the
question ?

Mr. Witt. That is what I want to do.
The Chairman. The fifth amendment?
Mr. Witt. No.

The Chairman. That is the only reason that can be advanced. It
is because of the Constitution.

Mr. Witt. If you will listen to me, Mr. Chairman

The Chairman. No, I do not want to listen to you. I know too
much about you.

3450 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Witt. Mr. Chairman, that is not fair on this question. I think
I am entitled to state for the record in just one sentence

The Chairman. Do you answer the question of whether or not you
have ever gone under any otlier name?

Mr. Witt. No, I refuse to answer that, and I think I am entitled to
state for the record why, Mr. Chairman.

The Chaieman. No, you are not entitled to state the reason at all.

Mr. Witt. I think I am, in the exercise of my legal rights.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Witt, would you please tell this committee

Mr. Witt. Just a minute.

The Chairman. You refused to answer the question as to whether
or not you ever masqueraded under another name, and you refuse
to

Mr. Witt. That is not true, Mr. Chairman. The reason I now take
the position

The Chairman. Did you ever use any other name ?

Mr. Witt. My family did when I was a minor, and the reason I
say that this question has anti-Semitic overtones is that it has abso-
lutely nothing to do with the purposes for which this committee is
empowered to conduct an investigation.

The Chairman. Never mind. You have answered the question.

Mr. Witt. Mr. Arens knows that, and he knows he has differences
with me, that this question, my family name, has nothing to do with
the powers this committee has. That is why I say the question has
anti-Semitic overtones.

Mr. Arens. We hope that you will bear over your righteous indig-
nation w^ith respect to people who have committed treasonable acts
against this Government. We want you now to tell us, Mr. Witt,
in this sense of indignation which you have evidenced before the com-
mittee, the names of people whom you employed while you were with
the National Labor Relations Board.

Mr. Witt. IMay I liave that question repeated, please ?

(The reporter read from his notes as requested. )

Mr. Witt. I am sorry, I really don't understand that.

Mr. Arens. Let us ask this question first, to help you along. During
the period when you were Secretary of the National Labor Relations
Board, did you have the responsibility for the staff hiring and firing?

Mr. Witt. I had the responsibility of making recommendations to
the Board regarding the hiring and firing of people attached to the
Office of the Secretary of the Board.

Mr. Arens. Let us get the date, please, Mr. Witt. When were you
Secretary of the National Labor Relations Board ?

Mr. Witt. I was Secretary of the National Labor Relations Board
from November 1937 until the end of 1940.

Mr. Arens. Can you tell this committee, please, whether or not,
during the course of your employment as Secretary of the National
Labor Relations Board, you knew a person by the name of Herbert
Fuchs ?

Mr. Witt. Yes ; I did.

Mr. Arens. Did you have anything to do with the employment of
Herbert Fuchs ?

]\Ir. Witt. I don't remember. What I do remember is that Mr,
Fuchs was never attached to the Secretary's office.

Mr. Arens. Then you probably did not

coivimujStist infiltration of government 3451

Mr. Witt. Before I was Secretary, I was Assistant General Coun-
sel of the Board.

Mr. Arens. I understand.

Mr. Witt. It is my recollection that while I was Assistant General'
Counsel I had something to do with the employment of Mr. Fuchs.

Mr. Arexs. Did you recommend his employment ?

Mr. Witt. I have no independent recollection of that. I read Mr.
Fuchs' testimony before this committee, and I have noted that he said
I did. I am prepared to accept that in the absence of my own
independent recollection.

Mr. Arexs. Did you recommend or have anything to do with the
employment of a person by the name of Allan R. Rosenberg, either
while 3-0U were Secretary or while you were Assistant General Coun-
sel of the Xational Labor Relations Board ?

Mr. Witt. I have no recollection of having anj^thing to do with the
employment of Mr. Rosenberg, while I was Assistant General Counsel,
although I may have.

Mr. Arens. Did you know him prior to the time that he became
employed with the Xational Labor Relations Board ?

Mr. Witt. I am not sure that I did, but it is probable that I did,
because my recollection is that before Mr. Rosenberg was employed
by the Board, he was on the staff of the Senate Civil Liberties sub-
committee, with which the Board had relations. So it would be my
guess, that is all that it is, because ni}^ recollection is not very clear,
that I had met him before he came to the NLRB.

Mr. Arens. Did jou know a person

Mr. Witt. Mr. Arens, I am sorry to take so long, but to complete
that, I do recollect, though, that when I was Secretary, Mr. Rosenberg
was a member of my staff.

Mr. Arens. While you were with the Xational Labor Relations
Board, did you have anything to do with the employment there of a
person by the name of Martin Kurasch ?

Mr. Witt. My recollection is clear as to Mr. Kurasch, that when I
was Assistant General Counsel of the Board, I recommended Mr.
Kurasch's appointment.

Mr. Arens. And am I mistaken in my recollection from the testi-
mony we have had the last several days, that jNIr. Kurasch worked
under your immediate supervision or close alliance with you in the
Board ?

Mr. Witt. He was a member of the so-called review staff when I was
in charge of it as Assistant General Counsel, and then also I think
he was attached to my staff for a while while I was Secretar}'.

Mr. Arens. You were his supervisor, is that correct, or his superior
in the echelons of the Board's emplojanent system there ?

Mr. Witt. Yes, while he was on the review staff and I was Assistant
General Counsel, I was in charge of the review staff.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your emploj^ment there, in these
capacities with the Xational Labor Relations Board, did you have any-
thing to do with the employment of Ruth Weyand Perry, or who was
probablv known at that time as Ruth Weyand, W-e-y-a-n-d ^

Mr. Witt. I have no recollection of that, Mr. Arens. My best recol-
lection is that Miss Weyand was never employed in the Review Sec-

70S11 — 56— pt. 5-

3452 COMMXJNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

tion, of which I was in charge. I think she was employed in the
Litigation Section, with which I had nothing to do.

Mr. Arens. To clear this record, Mr. Witt, when you were Secretary
of the Board, your recommendations on hiring and firing, asXimder-
stand it, did not extend into the legal staff of the Litigation Section?

Mr. Witt. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. In the course, at least, of your official duties ?

Mr. Witt. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Did you have anything to do with the employment of
Joseph li. Robison, R-o-b-i-s-o-n ?

Mr. Witt. My recollection is not too clear on that, but my best guess
would be that Mr. Robison joined the Review Section while I was
Assistant General Counsel.

Mr. Chairman, may I say that I keep saying that my best recollection
is because we are talking about events that took place almost 20 years
ago.

The Chairman. That is all we expect, the best of the witness' recol-
lection.

Mr. Witt. I keep saying it, and that is why I want to emphasize that
all of this took place 20 years ago and had to do with hundreds of
people.

Mr. Arens. Did you have anything to do in like manner with the
employment of David Rein, R-e-i-n ?

Mr. Witt. I have no recollection of that. On that one, I wouldn't
even care to guess.

Mr. Arens. Woodrow Sandler, S-a-n-d-1-e-r ?

Mr. Witt. My best recollection is that I recommended his employ-
ment when I was Assistant General Counsel.

Mr. Arens. And Jacob H. Krug, K-r-u-g ?

Mr. Witt. The same answer as to Mr. Krug, although it is more of a
guess in his case.

Mr. Arens. Mortimer Riemer, R-i-e-m-e-r ?

Mr. Witt. No. I would be quite certain that while I was Assistant
General Counsel I had nothing to do with Mr. Riemer's employment.
I have heard his testimony about his interview with me when I was
Secretary. But, as you know, he testified that I did not recommend him
for employment when I was Secretary.

Mr. Arens. John W. Porter ?

Mr. Witt. I have no recollection of Mr. Porter.

Mr. Arens. Allen Heald, H-e-a-1-d ?

Mr. Witt, I put Mr. Heald in the same category as I put Miss Wey-
and. I think he was employed on the staff in the Litigation Section of
the Board.

Mr. Arens. Frank Donner?

Mr. Witt. I think I would give the same answer as to Mr. Donner.
I don't think he was employed in the Review Section, although on this
one I might be wrong.

Mr. Arens. Harry Cooper ?

Mr. Witt. He is just a name to me. I remember the name. I read
it in the testimony of one of the other witnesses.

Mr. Arens. Edward Scheunemann ?

Mr. Witt. I have no recollections of Mr. Scheunemann, although if
I were to guess, I would say he was m the Review Section when I was
Assistant General Counsel.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3453

Mr. Arens. Bertram Diamond ?

Mr. Witt. I think he was in the Litigation Section.

Mr. Arens. Can you help this committee by telling us whether or not
you know if Ruth Weyand, also known as Ruth Weyand Perry is, or
has been a member of the Communist Party ?

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Witt. Mr. Chairman, I have two objections I would like to make
to the question on which I would like you to rule. The first

The Chairman. You know you do not object to questions before a
congressional committee. You refuse to answer. You know that, be-
cause of your experience before various congressional committees. Do
you refuse to answer the question ?

Mr. Witt. From my experience with congressional committees, Mr.
Chairman, it is my impression that aside from

The Chairman. I do not care about your impressions. Do you
answer the question, or do you not? I know, of course, what your
impression is of this committee.

Mr. Witt. I don't care to get into that.

The Chairman. What is your answer? Do you refuse to answer
the question ?

Mr. AViTT. Just let me say this

The Chairman. Do you refuse to answer the question ?

Mr. Witt. Yes. If I get a ruling from the Chair

The Chairman. All right, you refused to answer the question.

Mr. Witt. Do I have a ruling from the Chair ?

The Chairman. You have the ruling that witnesses are here not
in a trial but they are here because the committee has a job to per-
form, the job in this instance being to ascertain how so many Com-
munists were placed by you in an agency of the Government. You
have been asked a very simple question. What is the answer to
the question ?

Mr. Witt. I think the question is objectionable, because the com-
mittee has no power to ask the question.

The Chairman. You are not going to object; are you going to
refuse to answer the question ?

Mr. Witt. I think I am entitled to make my record, Mr. Chair-
man. I think the question is improper also because it violates my
rights under the first amendment.

The Chairman. Then you refuse to answer the question because of
the first amendment ?

Mr. AViTT. Yes.

The Chairman. Proceed.

Mr. Witt. Have you ruled on that objection ?

The Chairman. I am not ruling on objections. You have objected
and that is that. You have given as your reason the first amendment.

Mr. Witt. In the absence of a ruling from the chairman on those
objections, I will refuse to answer the question on the grounds that
under the fifth amendment I may not be compelled to be a witness
against myself.

The Chairman. In a criminal proceeding.

Mr. Witt. I prefer my own formulation.

The Chairman. You can put your own formulation, but that is not
the Constitution.

3454 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Witt, Mr. Chairman, do you want to debate that in some other
context ?

The Chairman. I would not debate the time of day with you, Mr.
Witt.

Mr. Witt. All right.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee of the Congress the truth as to whether or not, to your knowl-
edge, Ruth Weyand Perry was ever a member of the Communist Party
you would be supplying information which could be used against
you in a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. Witt. I will debate that question with you, Mr. Arens, but I
see no reason why I have to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

It would be, Mr. Arens, of great interest to me and to other mem-
bers of the great Democratic Party that was responsible for all of
this enlightened legislation, to find out how people of this sort got
their positions when those of us who created these agencies were un-
able to find positions for very meritorious people.

Mr. Arens. I would only respond to the chairman's observation
by saying I do not anticipate that that information would be forth-
coming from the witness presently under oath before the committee.

Mr. Witt. I will go into that question. I know about that. I will
be delighted to discuss the question that the chairman raised.

Mr. Arens. Was your employment with the National Labor Rela-
tions Board occasioned by any person known to you to have been
a member of the Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. Witt. That is not the question.

The Chairman. That is the question that has been asked.

Mr. WiTP. Is Mr. Walter interested in patronage given by the
Democratic Party ?

The Chairman. I will find out about that myself, in my own way.
Just answer Mr. Arens' question.

Mr. Witt. The record of the NLRB demonstrates

Mr. Arens. Tell us whether or not your employment with the
National Labor Relations Board was occasioned by a person known
by you to have been a member of the Communist conspiracy.

Mr. Witt. No.

Mr. Arens. It was not ?

Mr. Witt. No.

Mr. Arens. Tell us whether or not the employment of Allan Rosen-
berg was occasioned or recommended by a person who was a member
of the Communist conspiracy.

Mr. Witt. No.

Mr. Arens. Did you not just tell us that you recommended Allan'
Rosenberg ?

Mr. Witt. I misunderstood your question. I thought you were ask-
ing in terms of Mr. Walter's suggestion.
Mr. Arens. We just want the facts.

Mr. Witt. So do I. I am under oath here, and you will get nothing
but facts from me, except when I refuse to answer your improper
questions.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3455

Mr. Arens. You ^ive only facts to congressional committees; is
that correct ?

Let us pursue that a moment. Do you give only facts to con-
gressional committees ?

Mr. Witt. Mr. Walter asked about patronage.

The Chairman. I did not ask anything at all. I made a statement,
iind that is that.

Go ahead, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Witt. Nobody was employed by the NLKB except on his
merits, and the record of the NLRB demonstrates that.

The Chairman. Having seen some of the employees, I question
that statement.

Mr. Witt. Do you know the work of the NLRB during that
period ?

Mr. Arens. At the time you recommended these people, Rosen-
berg, et al, for employment, did you know they were members of
the Communist conspiracy?

Mr. Witt. Mr. Rosenberg, everybody else employed by the Board,
either on my recommendation or the recommendation of anybody
else, was employed on his merits, and whether or not he was a mem-
ber of what you, Mr. Arens, call the Communist conspiracy, is an
improper question, and I respectfully decline to answer it on the
same grounds I have already given.

Mr. Arens. Was it coincidence, just happened that the people

whose names I have called off to you, whom you recommended for
employment, have been identified as people who were in the Com-
munist conspiracy? Is that just a coincidence?

Mr. Witt. It may just be a coincidence that you call Mr. Rosen-
ber a member of what you call the Communist conspiracy, when
Mr. Rosenberg happened to be a very able lawyer who did an out-
standing job with the NLRB which was what I and the other officials
of the NLRB were interested in.

Mr. Arens. On October 16, 1940, when you sent a letter to the
Honorable Howard W. Smith, who was then chairman of the Special
Committee To Investigate the National Labor Relations Board (this
letter, of course, not being a sworn document, and this letter, of
course, not being given in the course of sworn testimony) you wrote:

I do wish to go on record that I am not now nor have I ever been a member
of the Communist Party, a Communist sympathizer, or one who hues to the
Communist Party line.

Was that in 1940, that you sent that letter to Congressman Smith?

Mr. Witt. Mr. Arens, and members of the committee, I testified
under oath before Mr. Smith's committee, and answered all the
questions that were put to me. So I think Mr. Arens' implication
in the introductory part of his question is improper.

Mr. Arens. Is it unfair for me to even imply that you were telling
the truth, is that what you are trying to say, when you wrote to
Congressman Smith and told him that you were not and never had
been a member of the Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. Witt. What I am saying, Mr. Arens, is that it is unfair of
you, and typically unfair, to try to examine the work, the work of
hundreds of other people, which was done 15 and 20 years ago, in
the effectuation of these very fine acts passed by the Congress in
this kind of context.

3456 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Now would you please answer the question ? Did you
lie to Representative Smith in your letter of October 16, 1940. Did
you lie to him in this letter when you told him you had never been
a member of the Communist Party, never had been even a Com-
munist sympathizer?

Mr. Witt. Mr. Arens, you know that I will refuse to answer such
questions whether they are put directly or indirectly, for the grounds
I have already given.

Mr. Arens. Of course I knew it, but I wanted this record to
reflect that.

Mr. Witt. You have had it before, Mr. Arens. I do not see that
this committee is serving a legislative purpose by going through this
again. I have been before this committee, I think, on 3 other occa-
sions, before the Senate committee on 3 occasions, and I have been
asked the same questions. I think the committee is wasting the tax-
payers' money in pursuing improper powers, and violating the first
amendment. And it is distorting history.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, that will complete the interrogation of
this witness. As I have said, the record is replete with testimony of
him and about him.

The Chairman. Are there any questions ?

Mr. Willis. No.

Mr. Kearney. No.

Mr. Ford. In response to the permission you gave, this is the state-
ment we wish to iile.

(Document handed to chairman.)

The Chairman. Have you copies for the other members?

Mr. Ford. Yes, I have.

The Chairman. The witness is excused.

Have you another witness, counsel ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.^

(Present at the taking of the recess: the chairman, Representatives
Kearney and Willis.)

(Brief recess.)

(Present at the convening of the committee after the taking of the
recess : The chairman and Representative Kearney.)

The Chairman. Call your witness.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Edwin S. Smith.

Please remain standing and be sworn.

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?

Mr. Smith. I do.

TESTIMONY OF EDWIN S. SMITH, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
GERHARD P. VAN ARKEL

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Smith. Edwin S. Smith, 107 State Street, Brooklyn, and I am
a businessman.

(At this point, Representative Willis entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Arens. Wliat is the nature of your business ?

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3457

Mr. Smith. I operate a news photograph agency. I am also a liter-
ary and music agent.

Mr. Arens. By literary agent, you are agent for what purpose ? I
don't quite understand.

Mr. Smith. I represent authors in terms of the translation and pub-
lication rights of their books. In other words, I represent foreign
authors whose books in translation may be published in this country.

Mr. Are-vs. What foreign authors do you represent ?

Mr. Smith. I represent the Soviet authors, both writers of fiction
and nonfiction, scientific writers.

Mr. Arens. Are you registered under the Foreign Agents Regis-
tration Act?

Mr. Smith. I am.

Mr. Arexs. What is the name under which you are registered in the
Foreign Agents Registration Act ?

Mr. Smith. Edwin S. Smith.

Mr. Arexs. Is the firm also registered, Mr. Smith ?

Mr. Smith. That is correct, whatever is required by the form has
been carried out.

Mr. Arex^s. What firm is registered ? You are registered as an in-
dividual under the Foreign Agents Registration Act ?

Mr. Smith. That is correct.

Mr. Arexs. What is the name of the firm that is registered ?

Mr. Smith. I am the firm. I have certain trade names, but I am
the business.

Mr. Arexs. Give us the trade names.

Mr. Smith. The Am-Russ Literary and Music Agency.

Mr. Arens. Is that registered ?

Mr. Smith. Yes. The only reason I am hesitating on this is that it
is reported in whatever form it is required to be reported into the De-
partment of Justice. It is not separately incorporated. This is simply
a trade name, given me with the approval of the county of New York.

Mr. Arexs. You, as an indivadual, are registered as the agent of a
foreign power, is that correct ?

Mr. S311TH. I am registered as the agent of the principals whom I
represent in foreign countries.

Mr. Arexs. Under the Foreign Agents Registration Act?

Mr. Smith. Correct.

Mr. Arexs. Under the provisions of the Foreign Agents Registra-
tion Act, one who is the agent in the United States of a foreign prin-
cipal is required not only to register, but to label any political propa-
ganda which he disseminates or causes to be disseminated in this
Nation.

Mr. Smith. That is correct.

IVIr, Arens. Do you cause an}' such political propaganda to be
labeled ?

Mr. Smith. Oh, yes.

Mr. Aren^s. "V^'^Iat do you cause to be labeled as political propa-
ganda ?

Mr. Smith. I cause the news photographs which I distribute to
various customers in the United States, to be labeled with whatever
form is required by the Department of Justice.

Mr. Arexs. Where do you get these photographs?

Mr. Smith. I get them through the mail, for the most part.

■3458 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. What is the place of origin of these photographs ?

Mr. Smith. Various countries.

Mr. Arens. Tell us the names of the countries.

Mr. Van Arkel. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might interrupt?
The witness testified on May 21, 1953, before the Senate Committee
■on the Judiciary, at very considerable length, and with specific refer-
ence to the matters about which he is now being interrogated, I would
like to suggest that, to save the time of the committee and of all of us,
perhaps the committee might incorporate that testimony given before
the Senate committee in its own record, in order that it will have it
complete.

The Chairman. If it is possible, that might be proper.

Mr. Arens. I do not propose to go into any exhaustive searching
with reference to these operations, but I do feel we are right on the
brink of some information which helps establish some of the activities
of the witness who is presently before us.

The Chairman. Try to avoid any repetition.

Mr. Van Arkel. Perhaps for the record I might put in these cita-
tions.

Mr. Arens. We have them. I am familiar with the work of the
Senate committee.

From what countries, Mr. Smith, do you receive this political propa-
ganda, which you label as foreign political propaganda, pursuant to
the Foreign Agents Registrations Act?

Mr. Smith. I am a little bit concerned as to whether the manner
of phrasing the question represents accurately what the label says, but
I would like it understood that the material, the photographs I speak
of, are labeled in accordance with the regulations of the Department
of Justice.

Mr. Arens. Tell us where you get them.

Mr. Smith. I don't think the photographs are labeled political
propaganda, because that is not what is required.

Mr. Arens. Tell us from what countries you get them.

Mr. Smith. I get photographs from the Soviet Union, I get them
from China, I get them from Czechoslovakia, from Hungary, from
Poland. I believe that is all. Mr. Chairman, may I consult this refer-
ence that counsel has given me ?

Mr. Arens. You get them principally from behind the Iron Curtain,
or entirely, I take it, from behind the Iron Curtain ?

Mr. Smith. I get them also from Germany, from East Germany.
I get them from the countries that I have named.

Mr. Arens. I apologize to counsel. We forgot to ask counsel to
identify himself for the record. Would you kindly do so ?

Mr. Van Arkel. My name is Van Arkel. My first name is Gerhard.
My address is 1701 K Street NW.

Mr. Arens. Do you also, Mr. Smith, import and distribute films?

Mr. Smith. No, I do not.

Mr. Arens. With that background of identification as to your pres-
ent occupation, would you kindly give us a succinct rundown of your
personal background ? Where were you born ?

Mr. Smith. I was born in Massachusetts.

Mr. Arens. When ?

Mr. Smith. 1891.

Mr. Arens. Where were you educated ?

COMMUNIST ESTFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3459

Mr. Smith. I was educated in the high school in Massachusetts,
Brookline High School, and I was educated also briefly in Connecti-
cut, as a young person, where my family lived for a time. Then I
attended Harvard University. I obtained an A. B. degree there.

Mr. Akens. In what year did you obtain your degree?

Mr. Smith. 1915.

Mr. Arens. Did that complete vour formal education ?

Mr. Smith. That did.

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, sir, in comparable form, a sketch
of the employment that you had after you completed your formal edu-
cation. Disregard any little messenger jobs or anything of that char-
acter that a youngster might have had.

Mr. Smith. I am glad to do that, Mr. Counsel. I will call to your
attention, also, as my counsel has done previously that this matter
was gone into extensively in the hearings before the Senate Judiciary
Committee, and also in Who's Who, at that time, which assisted my
recollection.

Mr. Arens. Tliis is just for background purposes, a skeleton form.

Mr. Smith. My first important job, I would say, after I left col-
lege, was as a newspaperman. I was the editor for a period of a local
newspaper or, rather, assistant editor, in the town where I was brought
up, namely Brookline, Mass., and, thereafter, I was employed in other
papers, the Springfield Republican and the Hartford Times.

After that newspaper experience, which lasted 2 or 3 years, I engaged
in various occupations. I am not going to attempt to list them chrono-
logically, because I am not quite too sure.

I was a research person in the field of personnel for the Dennison
Manufacturing Co., in Framingham, Mass. I was for 3 years on the
staff of the Russell Sage Foundation, in New York.

Mr. Arens. Could you pause there and tell us the capacity in which
you sei'ved in tliat foundation ?

Mr. Smith. Yes. I was a member of the staff of the so-called divi-
sion of industrial studies, making studies at that time of employee
representation plans in this country. This was the period shortly
after the war. Then for a time I was employment manager at a de-
partment store in Boston, the Filene Department Store.

After that, I had the title of personnel assistant to one of the Filene
brothers, who ran that store, that is, who were members of the firm. _

My next position was that of Commissioner of Labor and Industries
in the State of Massachusetts, a position which I held for 3 years.

Mr. Arens. Give us the approximate date of that employment,
please, sir ?

Mr. Smith. That would have been about 1930 to 1933. I am not
sure it was not 1931 to 1934, because I came after that directly into
employment by the Federal Government.

Mr. Arens. Let us pick it up now when you started with the
Federal Government, if you please, sir.

Mr. Smith. That was in 1934, in the spring of 1934, I should say.
I am not quite certain. I was first employed by the Federal Govern-
ment as a member of the National Labor Relations Board, which was
then administering section 7 (a) of the National Industrial Recovery
Act. After the National Industrial Recovery Act was held uncon-
stitutional and the so-called Wagner Act was passed, I became a mem-

3460 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

ber of the National Labor Relations Board again, administering the
Wagner Act.

Mr. Arens. That gets us into what year? You started in 1934?

Mr. Smith. I started in 1935. That is, I was an appointee to tlie

first Board under the National Labor Relations Act, the Wagner

Act, and then I served for 2 terms, an initial term of 1 year and a

subsequent term of 5 years.

I ceased employment with the Board in 1941.

Mr. Arens. From 1934 until 1941, you were identified as a Board
member, either of the National Labor Relations Board administering
the old 7 (a) section of the National Industrial Recovery Act, or
the new Board, as a Board member ?
Mr. Smith. That is right.

Mr. Arens. Pick up your occupation from 1941 on, very succinctly.
Mr. Smith. My first position after leaving the Labor Board was
as director of the oil workers organizing campaign of the CIO.
Mr. Arens. And that employment began in 1942, or thereabouts?
Mr. Smith. I am not sure whether it is 1941 or 1942. 1942, pos-
sibly.

Mr. Arens. Where were you headquartered ?

Mr. Smith. My headquarters were, first, in Washington and later
in Houston, Tex., and then briefly in New York.

Mr. Van Arkel. I do not want to interrupt, Mr. Chairman, but
this is repetitive of what is in the record.
Mr. Arens. He can cover it quickly.

What happened after 1942, when you were with the oil workers
campaign ?

Mr. Smith. My next position was as director of the National Coun-
cil of American-Soviet Friendship.
Mr. Arens. That was what year ?

Mr. Smith. That was the position I held from 1942 until 1945.
Then for a brief period I was engaged in an attempt to establish trade
between Poland and the United States.

Mr. Arens. I didn't get the name of the organization,
Mr. Smith. I didn't name any organization. I said for a brief
period thereafter, about a year or so, I was engaged in an attempt to
establish a business of trading between the United States and Poland,
having to do, specifically, with the importation of Polish goods into
this country.

Mr. Arens. Wliat goods were you going to import ?
Mr. Smith. Chinaware. I was going to and did import.
Mr. Arens. Did you create a corporation or a business of your
own?

Mr. Smith. No. I was employed for that purpose by a company
which was engaged in international trade.

Mr. Arens. What is the name of the company ?
Mr. Smith. That was called the Rogers International Co.
Mr. Arens. How long were you engaged in promoting trade be-
tween these two countries ?

Mr. Smith. A little over a year.

Mr. Arens. That would take you up to about 1946 or 1947 ?
Mr. Smith. Yes, that would take me up to about 1947, 1 thmk.
Mr. Arens. Proceed.

COMMXJNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3461

Mr, Smith. Then I became a teacher at the Putney School, in
Vermont.

Mr. Arens. Is that a college ?

Mr. Smith. No, that is a private preparatory school.

]\Ir. Arens. What did you teach ?

Mr. SMrrn. I taught history.

Mr. Arens. That was about 1948?

Mr. Smith. That would have been — yes, 1948-49, maybe a little
in 1 947. I am not sure about these dates.

Tliereafter I became director of the national teachers division of
the United Public Workers of America.

]\Ir. Arens. Was that a full-time occupation ?

Mr. Smith. That was.

IVfr. Arens. Was Abram Flaxer president of the United Public
Woi'kers at that time ?

]\Ir. Smith. Yes, he was.

Mr. Arens. Was Abram Flaxer your immediate superior?

]\Ir. Smith. Mr. Chairman, that is rather difFicult to say. I don't
think that he was. I had my headquarters Avith the Teachers Union
of New York, that is, I had my headquarters in that building, which
was the largest local of the United Public Workers, the largest local
of teachers. I suppose my ultimate responsibility was to Mr. Flaxer
or to the board of the United Public Workers, but for the most part
I worked very closely with the actual teachers themselves.

Mr. Arens. Only for further identification, I want to be sure that
is Flaxer's union.

Now let us proceed. What was your next occupation ?

Mr. Smith. My next occupation is the one I presently hold. I
became agent, as I have described, in February 1952. I might add
that the agency itself has been in existence for about 20 years.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your membership from 1934 to
1941 on the National' Labor Relations Board, tell us how many other
Board members there were? How many were there in total?

Mr. Smith. That would require a little thought.

Mr. Arens. I don't mean how many individual persons occupied
posts in the Board. What was the membership ?

Mr. Smith. There were three members of both boards. In the case
of each board, the membership was three.

Mr. Arens. A maximum of three. So you were one-third of the
Board, is that correct ?

Mr. Smith. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your membership on the National
Labor Relations Board, did you know a person by the name of Louis
Budenz?

Mr. Smith. Did I know him ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Smith. No, I did not.

Mr. Arens. Did you know him at any time ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. Mr. Arens, the individual you have mentioned has testi-
fied about me before congressional committees and other governmental
bodies quite falsely. It is for that reason that I refuse to answer any
further questions about my supposed knowledge of Mr. Budenz, on the
ground that I think it might tend to force me to testify against myself.

3462 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Was Louis Budenz telling the truth when he told this
committee thcat you were, while a member of the National Labor Rela-
tions Board, first of all under Communist discipline? Was Budenz
telling the truth or was he lying ?

Mr. Smith. I make the same answer as the grounds for my refusal
to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. While you were a member of the National Labor Rela-
tions Board, were you under Communist discipline ?

Mr. Smith. Again I decline to answer for the same reason I have
given.

Mr. Arens. While you were a member of the National Labor Rela-
tions Board, were you also a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Smith. The same answer for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your service on the National Labor
Relations Board, did you know a person by the name of Allan
Rosenberg ?

Mr. Smith. I did.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he was a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that for the same reason already
given.

Mr. Arens. Did you have anything to do with the employment of
Allan Rosenberg?

Mr. Smith. No more than I had to do with the employment of all
persons on the staff of the Board.

Mr. Arens. Did you vote for his employment ?

Mr. Smith. All of the persons appointed by the Board were literally
appointed by the Board. So I voted for everybody who became a
member of the staff.

Mr. Arens. Did you know of him prior to the time of his em-
ployment ?

Mr. Smith. I have no recollection that I knew him before.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he was recommended to
you by Nathan Witt ?

Mr. Smith. Mr. Arens, there was no recommendation by individual
members of the staff for the employment of new members of the staff,
to the best of my recollection. All of the lawyers employed, certainly,
were employed, as I recall it, specifically by the recommendation of
the General Counsel to the Board. What went on prior to that recom-
mendation of General Counsel, I have no knowledge of.

Mr. Arens. Wliat post did Nathan Witt occupy with the National
Labor Relations Board during these several years when you were one-
third of the membership of tlie Board?

Mr. Smith. He was, during part of the time, on the second National
Labor Relations Board, he was the head of the review staff of lawyers.
I think the title was Assistant General Counsel. Then he became
Secretary of the Board. I have no recollection of what his position
was on the first National Labor Relations Board.

Mr. Arens. While you were a member of the National Labor Re-
lations Board, was one of the Pressman boys identified with the
Board?

Mr. Smith. One of the Pressman boys ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Smith. I recall no such name.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3463

The Chairman. Was Lee Pressman ?

Mr. Smith. Lee Pressman was never connected with the National
Labor Relations Board.

Mr. Akens. Lee Pressman was connected with Nathan Witt. He
has testified about that.

Can you tell us, whether or not, while you were a member of the
National Labor Relations Board, you knew Nathan Witt as a
Communist ^

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the grounds al-
ready stated.

Mr. Arens. While you were a member of the National Labor Rela-
tions Board, did you consult with respect to your official duties on
that Board, with persons known by you to be members of the Com-
munist conspiracy?

Mr. Smith. I again decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Do you mean to tell this committee of the Congress
that if you would state truthfully whether or not, while you were
one-third of the membership of the National Labor Relations Board,
you consulted in your official duties with people known by you to be
members of the Communist conspiracy, you would be supplying infor-
mation which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?

Mr. Smith. My declination, Mr. Counsel, is based on the grounds
I have already given.

Mr. Arens. Do you apprehend that you would be supplying in-
formation which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding
if you gave a full and complete and truthful answer to that question?

Mr. Smith. I don't care to enter into a colloquy with counsel as to
the reasons why I avail myself of this constitutional protection.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. I think answering that question might tend to put me
in the position of being a witness against myself. For that reason, I
decline to answei' it.

Mr. Arens. Do you feel it might be putting you in the position of
giving information which could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. I would give the same answer.

Mr. Arens. Then, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

Mr. Smith. I again refuse to answer that question under the consti-
tutional protection which I have cited.

The Chairman. What crime do you think you might be charged
with having committed if you answered the question?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Wliile you were a member of the National Labor Rela-
tions Board, did you take a trip to Russia ?

Mr. Smith. No. indeed.

Mr. Arens. Did you, in 1945, take a trip to Russia ?

3464 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Smith. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your trip to Russia in 1945 ?

Mr. Van Arkel. Mr. Chairman, may I again suggest that this mat-
ter was fully covered before the Senate committee. It is a matter of
record before that committee.

The Chairman. I think if he answered the questions we would save
time. It is very interesting to me, because I know nothing about the
Senate hearing. I would like to know about it.

Mr. Van Arkel. I think the committee would save itself a good
bit of time.

Mr. Arens. I am sure the committee regards it as sufficiently im-
portant to take the time, Mr. Counsel.

Tell us what occasioned your trip to Soviet Russia in 1945.

Mr. Smith. At that time, I was the director, as I stated previously,
of the National Council of American-Soviet Friendship. I was in-
vited to make a trip to the Soviet Union by an organization known
as VOKS, wliich is a Soviet body for the promotion of cultural rela-
tions with foreign countries. I was asked there specilically in order
to try to promote closer cultural relations between the Soviet Union
and this country.

Mr. Arens. Was Dr. Edward U. Condon with you on that trip?

Mr. Smith. Dr. Condon was with me, but in a rather special rela-
tionship. Dr. Condon and other scientists were asked over to the
Soviet Union to celebrate the anniversary of the Soviet Academy of
Sciences. I made the trip with the scientists who were asked over in
that capacity, but I, myself, was not asked by the Soviet Academy of
Sciences and I was not. in that sense, part of the same trip.

Mr. Arens. Could you identify Dr. Condon for us for this record
and give us his full name ?

Mr. Smith. I don't know exactly what position Dr. Condon

Mr. Arens. What type of scientist was he ?

Mr. Smith. He was a physicist.

Mr. Arens. Does he have anything to do with atomic energy, atomic
research, the atomic bomb ?

Mr. Smith. May I consult counsel, Mr. Arens ?

Mr. Arens. Surely, at any time.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. At the time, to the best of my recollection, I had no
knowledge of Dr. Condon having any connection with the atomic bomb.

Mr. Arens. He lived with you for a while, did he not ?

Mr. Smith. No; he didn't live with me. He spent one night in my
apartment during the time before this group of scientists and myself
went to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Arens. Did he finally make the trip, or was he unsuccessful ?

Mr. Smith. He did not make the trip.

Mr. Arens. Why didn't he make the trip ?

Mr. Smith. I would not like to go into that, Mr. Counsel, because
I don't know enough about it.

Mr. Arens. The truth is he was taken off the plane for security pre-
cautions, was he not ?

Mr. Smith. I have read that. Or something similar to it.

Mr. Arens. Did you deliver a little message when you arrived in
Russia or while you were in Russia on this trip ?

Mr. Smith. What do you mean by a little message ?

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3465

Mr. Arens. Greetings from a scientists' society here in the United
States, to the National Council of Soviet Delegates in the Soviet
Union ?

Mr. Smith. I have no recollection of delivering any such message.

Mr. Arens. Did you deliver a message which reads as follows :

American scientists, members and friends of the American Soviet Science
Society send Iiearty j^reetiiigs and congratulations to ttieir Soviet colleagues on the
220th anniversary of the great Soviet Academy. Your achievements in the con-
quest of nature have attributed to a great triumph over Fascists and tyranny, the
enemies of scientists. American scientists are even now on their way to Moscow,
beaiing in pei-son the greetings and good will of their colleagues. May we all go
forward together, united in war, united in peace.

Did you deliver tliat message ?

Mr. Smith. That sounds as if it were a message sent prior to the trip
I Avas on.

Mr. Arens. Did you deliver the message I just read?

Mr, Smith. I have no I'ecollection delivering such a message.

Mr. Arens. Did you deliver one substantially the same as that, or is
that a misquotation of you ?

Mr. Smi'ju. I don't even Ivnow whether the message you are reading
bears my signature.

Mr. Arens. When you were director of the National Council of
American-Soviet Friendship, did you cause that message to be deliv-
ered, either orally, by mail, or by any other means, to the scientists in
session in Moscow ?

Mr. Smith. I have no recollection of that, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your membership on the Na-
tional Labor Relations Board, of which you were one-third of the
Board, did you know a person by the name of Martin Kurasch?

Mr. Smith. Yes; I knew Martin Kurasch.

Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your acquaintanceship w^ith
him ?

Mr. Smith. He was a member of the legal staff. I knew him as
I knew other members of the legal staff.

Mr. Arens. Is that the only basis on which you knew him?

Mr. Smith. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answ^er that question on the grounds
already given.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Joseph
B. Robison ?

Mr. Smith. I did.

Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your acquaintanceship with
him?

Mr. Smith. The same kind of acquaintanceship that I had with
Mr. Kurasch and other lawyers.

Mr. Arens. Was it as extensive as the acquaintanceship you had
with Mr. Kurasch ?

Mr. Smith. Mr. Counsel, I am not going to try to define degrees
of relationship after 20 years.

I\Ir. Arens. You know what I am driving at. Did you know
Joseph Robison as a Communist?

Mr. Smith. Ask me the question.

Mr. Arens. Give me the answer. Did you know Joseph Robison
I as a Communist ?

3466

COMMUlSriST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr, Smith, I decline to answer that question on the same grounds
I have already given.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of David Rein?
I did.

Did you know him as a Communist ?
I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Did you know a person by the name of Woodrow

Mr, Smith,

Mr, Arens.

Mr. Smith.

Mr, Arens
Sandler ?

Mr. Smith.

Mr. Arens.

Mr. Smith.

Mr. Arens
Krug?

Mr. Smith.

Mr. Arens.

Mr. Smith.

Mr. Arens.

I did.

Did you know him as a Communist ?
I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Did you know a person by the name of Jacob H.

I think so. I am not altogether sure.
Did you know him as a Communist ?
I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Did you know a person by the name of Ruth Weyand,
W-e-y-a-n-d, also known as Ruth Weyand Perry ?
Mr. Smith. I did.

Did you know her as a Communist ?
I decline again to answer on the
Did you know a person by the

same grounds,
name of Mortimer

Mr. Arens.
Mr. Smith
Mr. Arens
Riemer ?

Mr. Smith. I did.

!Mr. Arens. And did you know him as a Communist ?
Mr, Smith, I again decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of John W.
Porter?
Mr. Smith.
Mr. Arens.

Smith.

Arens.

Smith.

Arens.

Smith.

Arens.

Smith.
Arens

I did.

Did you know him as a Communist ?
I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Did you know a person by the name of Allen Heald ?
I believe so.

Did you know him as a Communist?
I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Did you know a person by the name of Plarry Cooper?
I am not certain in my recollection of Mr. Cooner.
Did you know a person by the name of Edward
Scheunemann.
Mr. Smith. I remember Mr. Scheunemann ; yes.
Did you know him as a Communist?
I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Did you know a person by the name of Bertram Dia-

Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.

Mr. Arens.
Mr. Smith.
Mr. Arens

mond ?

Mr. Smith.

I did.

Mr. Arens. And did you know him as a Communist ?
Mr. Smith. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by the name of Herbert Fuchs ?
Mr. Smith. I did.

Mr. Arens. Did you know Herbert Fuchs as a Communist?
Mr. Smith. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your duties as a member of the
National Labor Relations Board, did you discharge those duties in

COMMUNIST ESTFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3467

any respect pursuant to directions or orders which you received from
the Communist Party ?

Mr. Smith. I did not.

Mr. Arens. Did you consult with persons known by you to be
members of the Communist Party in the furtherance of your duties
as a member of that Board ?

Mr. Smith. I did not.

The Chairman. May I ask a question at this point ?

Mr. Smith, you have stated that the legal staff was recruited by
counsel for the Board. I have been curious about these people, and I
find that in almost every instance their employment with the Board
was the best job they ever had. As far as the qualifications set forth
in the applications are concerned, they were very mediocre. Now the
question comes to my mind : Why were these particular people selected
for the jobs that they had? Was it because they were Communists?

Mr. Smith. Certainly not.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that while you were a member of the National Labor Kela-
tions Board, you were also with the Communist conspiracy as a mem-
ber of tlie Communist Party.

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer on the grounds already given. I
would also like to say. Mi'. Chairman, in defense of the staff of the
Labor Board generally, that it is my impression that they were most
carefully selected, and that certainly the great majority of persons
on the staff were very adequately competent to discharge their duties.

Mr. Arens. The record reflects they were carefully selected; yes.

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Arens. And for a particular purpose.

Now, while you were on the National Labor Relations Board, were
you also affiliated as a member or a sponsor of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born ?

Mr. Smith. I have no recollection of such a connection.

Mr. Arens. Were you affiliated with the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born at any time ?

Mr. Smith. I have no recollection of being so affiliated,

Mr. Arens. I lay before you the call and program of the 15th Anni-
versary of the National Conference of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, at the Congress Hotel, Chicago, 111.,
December 11 and 12, 1948, in which a partial list of the sponsors of
that conference appears, and in which the name Edwin S. Smith
appears, and I ask you whether or not that refreshes your recollection.

(Document handed to witness.)

Mr. Smith. That certainly is my name, and I may have given my
name as sponsor of that particular conference.

Mr. Arens. Did you know that the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born is one of the oldest Communist apparatuses
in the Nation ?

Mr. Smith. Mr. Counsel, I know something that has transpired as
far as the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born is
concerned in terms of congressional inquiries and so forth.

Mr. Arens. Did you know Abner Green of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?

Mr. Smith. I have no recollection of knowing Mr. Green.

70811—56— pt. 5 7

3468 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not the National Council of
American-Soviet Friendship, of which you were the director, is a
Communist front?

Mr. Smith. I understand that it has been declared to be a Com-
munist front by the Subversive Activities Control Board. The mat-
ter is still in litigation.

Mr. Arens. Have you been connected with the Civil Rights
Congress ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. Was I a member of the Civil Rights Congress?

Mr. Arens. Were you connected with it, active in it, a sponsor of
it, a delegate ?

Mr. Smith. I have no recollection.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document
Freedom Crusade, issued by the Civil Rights Congress, dated January
194:9, in which appears the list of people who were joining to protect
the Constitution of the United States. I see a name there, and I ask
you if that name I have just pointed to is the name of yourself?

(Document handed to witness.)

Mr. Smith. I am styled here as professor.

Mr. Arens. Does that document refresh your recollection ?

Mr. Smith. It seems to be my name. I can't quite make out what
the document is.

Mr. Arens. Turn it over. You will notice on the other side that
it is a flyer, a leaflet.

Mr. Smith. Evidently, the persons whose names appear on the
back of the leaflet joined in urging the sending of delegates or ob-
servers to whatever meeting the leaflet describes. And my name is
on there.

Mr. Arens. Did you lend your name to this cause ?

Mr. Smith. I presume I did.

Mr. Arens. Did you know that the Civil Rights Congress is like-
wise an arm of tlie Communist conspiracy in this country?

Mr. Smith. I had no such knowledge.

Mr. Arens, I see the purpose of this meeting is to battle to pro-
tect the Constitution of the United States. Have you ever been a
member of an organization designed to destroy the Constitution of
the United States ?

Mr. Smith. Mr. Counsel, I decline to answer that question on the
grounds previously given.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the International
Labor Defense?

Mr. Smith. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document en-
titled, "Program, Third Biennial Conference, International Labor
Defense," April of 1941, Hotel Piccadilly, in New York City, in
which the name Edwin S. Smith, appears, and I ask you if that re-
freshes your recollection.

(Document handed to witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. My name appears there, I notice, Mr. Counsel, under
the heading, "Messages of Good Wishes and Regrets at Their In-
ability to Attend Were Received," from a list of persons where my
name is included.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3469

Mr. Arens. At the time you sent these felicitations, did you know
that the International Labor Defense was an international arm of
the Communist international conspiracy ?
Mr. Smith. I had no such knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Do you know it now ?

Mr. Smith. I frankly know very little about the International
Labor Defense. If you tell me it has been on the Attorney General's
list, or something of that sort, that is probably correct.

Mr. Arens. While you were with the National Labor Relations
Board, were you a member of the National Lawyers Guild ?
Mr. Smith. I was not. I am not a lawyer.

Mr. Arens. Were you identified with the National Lawyers Guild ?
Mr. Smith. No, I was not identified with the National Lawyers
Guild.

Mr. Arens. Did you participate in sessions of the National Lawyers
Guild?

Mr. Smith. I did not.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of an invitation
of the National Lawyers Guild, to a dinner, and ask you whether or
not you were in attendance at that particular session, at that dinner.
( Document handed to witness. )

Mr. Smith. Yes; I attended that dinner and I spoke at that dinner.
I would like also to call attention to the fact that the Supreme Court
Justice Stanley Reed, Senator Murdock, from Utah, and Judge War-
ren Madden also were speakers at the same dinner, which was in
honor of Mr. Madden, the Chairman of the National Labor Relations
Board.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever terminated your relationship with the
National Council of American-Soviet Friendship ?
Mr. Smith. I have.
Mr. Arens. When was that?

Mr. Smith. At the time that I undertook my present business.
Mr. Arens. Wliat year ?
Mr. Smith. 1952.

Mr. Arens. Were you identified as director of the National Council
of American-Soviet Friendship until 1952?
Mr. Smith. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. What precipitated your disassociation from the Na-
tional Labor Relations Board ?

Mr. Smith. I was not rea])pointed by the President.
Mr. Arens. Your term j ust expired ; is that correct ?
Mr. Smith. That is right.

Mr. Arens. How did you get your job with the United Public
Workers ?

Mr. Smith. I am trying to recall.

Mr. Arens. Maybe I can help you a little bit. Did Abram Flaxer
have anything to do with it ?

Mr. Smith. Certainly Abram Flaxer must have approved my final
appointment.

Mr. Arens. Did you know Abram Flaxer is a hard, hard core mem-
ber of the Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. Smith. Mr. Counsel, I know nothing of Abram Flaxer in
that regard.

3470 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Aeens. I appreciate your frankness on that question.

Mr. Smith. Beyond what I have seen in the papers, that is.

Mr. Arens. I appreciate your frankness. Did you, as of the time
you were with the United Public Workers, know that Abram Flaxer
was a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
testifying against myself.
^ Mr. Arens. How do you distinguish this from the preceding ques-
tion ? I only said in the preceding question he was a hard, hard core
member, and now I ask you about him being just a plain ordinary
run-of-the-mill member, and you invoke the fifth amendment. Is it
just that you don't recognize the depth of his penetration within the
conspiracy ?

Mr. Smith. I will let the record stand as it is.

Mr. Arens. Let us straighten the record out.

The Chairman. I do not think the record needs to be straightened
out. He has refused to answer the question on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a man by the name of Ewart G. Guinier
when you were with the United Public Workers ?

Mr. Smith. I did.

Mr. Arens. Did you know he was a member of the Communist
conspiracy ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist conspiracy when
you were with the United Public Workers ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.

The Chairman. The fact of the matter is you received your job
with the United Public Workers because you were a Communist, is
that not the fact ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, on
the grounds already stated.

The Chairman. The Committee will stand in recess. The House
is now in session.

We will reconvene at 2 o'clock.

(Members present at the taking of the recess : The chairman, Repre-
sentatives Willis and Kearney.)

(Whereupon, at 12:05 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m., the same day, Thursday, March 1, 1956.

afternoon session — MARCH 1, 1956

(The hearing reconvened at 2 p. m. Present at the reconvening of
the session were the Chairman and Representative Scherer.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Smith, will you kindly resume the stand ?

TESTIMONY OP EDWIN S. SMITH— Eesumed

Mr. Arens. Mr. Smith, this morning we talked about your trip to
Soviet Russia. At whose instigation or invitation did you make that

trip?

Mr. Smith. I testified about that this morning quite specifically.
Mr. Arens. TeU us the name of the organization that invited you.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3471

Mr. Smith. The name of the organization was VOKS., which is
shorthand for the Society for Cultural Relations With Foreign Coun-
tries, a Soviet organization.

Mr. Arens. Do you know that Voks is a cover for an intelligence
operation by the Soviet Government ?

Mr. Smith. I have no such knowledge.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been told that ?

Mr. Smith. No ; I have never been told that.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person or have you known a person
by the name of Ignace Zlotowski, Z-1-o-t-o-w-s-k-i ?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Wliat was the nature of your acquaintanceship with

(Representative Kearney entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Smith. I first became acquainted with Mr, Zlotowski when he
was the secretary of the science committee of the National Council
of American-Soviet Friendship which you referred to this morning.

Mr. Arens. He is a citizen and native of what country ?

Mr. Smith. He is a Pole.

Mr, Arens. Do you know whether or not he is a Communist ?

Mr, Smith. I do not.

(At this point, Representative Willis entered the hearing rooin.)

Mr. Arens. You know, do you not, that he is a top-flight Soviet
espionage agent.

Mr. Smith. I have no such knowledge.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been told that ?

Mr. Smith, I think I may have been asked a question of that
similar character about Mr. Zlotowski in my appearance before the
Senate Internal Security Committee. I don't know whether it was
just in that form.

Mr. Arens. While you were in the Soviet Union, did you have
freedom of movement around the country to places where you might
want to go in developing more amicable cultural relations between
the United States and the Soviet Union ?

Mr. Smith. Yes ; I would say so, I don't recall wanting to go any-
where I didn't go.

Mr. Arens, Did you express any desire to see any of the slave labor
camps in the Soviet Union ?

Mr. Smith. No,

Mr. Arens. Wliy didn't you express a desire to see the slave labor
camps?

Mr, Smith. Mr. Counsel, I testified earlier that I was invited oyer
there to try to build up cultural relations between the Soviet Union
and the United States, looking toward exchange of cultural material
between both countries and possibly exchange of individuals, scien-
tists, artists, musicians, et cetera.

Mr. Arens. Would that include the exchange of scientific infor-
mation ?

Mr. Smith. Yes, certainly.

Mr, Arens. That was part of your objective ?

Mr. Smith. Certainly.

Mr. Arens. Did you have as part of your objective the exchange of
information respecting the scientific accomplishments of the United
States of America in the field of atomic energy ?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

3472 COMM^NIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNIMENT

_ Mr. Arens. I do not quite understand yet why you did not have a
little curiosity to see or inquire about these slave labor camps ?

Mr. Smith. I will let you speculate about that, Mr. Arens. 1 made
my statement.

Mr. Arens. You had no such curiosity, is that correct ?

Mr. Smith. I made no inquiries about slave labor camps.

Mr. Arens. I thought perhaps, on the basis of your experience as
a member of the National Labor Relations Board, dealing with labor
problems, you might want to have some curiosity satisfied within
yourself respecting labor conditions in the Soviet Union.

_ Mr. Scherer. Mr. Counsel, I was not here this morning. Wliat year
did the witness take this trip ?

Mr. Arens. 1945. It was just after the close of the war. That is,
just after the close of the war in Europe.

While you were on the National Labor Relations Board, did you
know a person by the name of Roy Hudson ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the grounds I have
previously asserted.

Mr. Arens. Roy Hudson was a leader of the labor section of the
Communist conspiracy in this country while you were on the National
Labor Relations Board, is that not correct ?

Mr. Smith. I am unable to answer that question out of my
information.

Mr. Arens. Were you ever associated in any activity with Roy
Hudson while you were on the National Labor Relations Board ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.

Mr. Arens. The truth is that you were a deputy to Roy Hudson who
was a top-flight leader of the labor section of the Communist Party,
while you were a member of the National Labor Relations Board, is
that not true ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the grounds already
stated.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you would tell this
committee whether or not, while you were a member of the National
Labor Relations Board, you were also deputy to Roy Hudson, labor
chief of the Communist Party, you would be supplying information
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the grounds already
expressed.

Mr. Arens. I very respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the
witness be ordered and directed to answer that question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

Mr. Smith. I again decline on the grounds stated.

Mr. Arens. Did you go abroad in 1950 ?

Mr. Smith. No.

Mr. Arens. Did you, about that period, 1949, 1950, 1951, go to a
world peace Congress in England ?

Mr. Smith. I did not.

Mr. Arens. Did you ever attend a world peace conference in Eng-
land?

Mr. Smith. I never did.

Mr. Arens. Did you ever attend a world peace conference any-
where ?

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3473

Mr. Smith. Never.

Mr. Arens. Inviting your attention for the moment to this teach-
ers' division of the United Public Workers, you were supervisor of
organization for that group, is that correct ?

Mr. Van Arkel. Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest again this
has all been covered before the Senate committee. It is all a matter
of record. I think we can save a lot of time by putting in his testi-
mony before the committee directly.

Mr. Arens. Part of it has been. The specific points I am pointing
out now are certainly germane to the issues we have.

Mr. Van Arkel. There is hardly a part of it that has not been du-
plicated before the Senate committee.

Mr. Arens. I am trying not to duplicate, Mr. Chairman. There
are areas where there will be duplication, and bound to be, because we
have the same plan.

The Chairman. Proceed, but try to limit duplication.

Mr. Arens. Tell us, sir, what were your duties as director of the
national teachers division of the United Public Workers?

Mr. Smith. I was not primarily an organizer. I was more of a per-
son in charge of responsibility of servicing the existing locals.

Mr. Arens. How many locals of teachers were established under
your supervision or direction while you were with the national teachers
division of the United Public Workers?

Mr. Smith. Do you mean how many new locals appeared during
that period ?

Mr. Arens. No. How many in the aggregate were under your su-
pervision.

Mr. Smlth. I would suggest about 7 or 8. I don't recall exactly.

Mr. Arens. How many teachers in these locals were under your
supervision ?

Mr. Smith. Possibly between six and seven thousand.

Mr. Arens. Wliere were the teachers principally located ?

Mr. Smith. In the city of New York.

Mr. Arens. Is that entity still in existence of which you were
director ?

Mr. Smith. Yes, although it is no longer a part of the United Pub-
lic Workers, since the United Public Workers no longer exists. There
is an organization called the Teachers Union of New York.

Mr. Arens. Is that the successor organization of the organization of
which you were a director ?

Mr. Smith. I should say so ; yes.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist conspiracy when
you were directing the entity of which some six or seven thousand
teachers were members ?

Mr. Smith. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds already
given.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny the
fact, that you were a member of the Communist conspiracy when you
were directing this work of the United Public Workers of America.

Mr. Smith. Again I decline for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. While you were with the Federal Government, did you
at any time take a loyalty oath ?

Mr. Smith. I am sorry, I didn't understand the question.

3474 • COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Did you at any time take a loyalty oath, an oath to pre-
serve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States ?

Mr. Smith. Yes ; I believe I did.

Mr. Arens. When did you take it ?

Mr. Smith. I suppose on the entrance into each of my Federal
employments.

Mr. Van Arkel. This matter, Mr. Chairman, has also been covered
very thoroughly before the Senate committee.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I want to invite counsel's attention to the
duties of counsel before this committee. It is only to advise the witness
and not the committee.

Mr. Van Arkel. I am saying this in the interest of saving the com-
mittee's time. It can be put into the record and it is a matter of public
knowledge.

Mr. Scherer. I have not heard this testimony, and I want to hear it.
I am perfectly satisfied that our counsel can conduct this examination
properly.

Mr. Kearney. What my colleague said goes for me, too. I am not
a member of any other committee except the House committee here.

Mr. Arens. The rules provide that the participation of counsel
during the course of any hearing shall be limited to advising the wit-
ness as to his legal rights. There is a specific admonition not to argue
with the committee, and to confine his conduct to legal advice to
his client.

Mr. Scherer. On the Public Works Committee we heard identically
the same witnesses and the same testimony that the Senate heard a few
weeks ago.

The Chairman. Proceed.

Mr. Arens. When did you take your loyalty oath to the Govern-
ment ?

Mr. Smith. May I refresh my recollection by consulting the previ-
ous testimony ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. There is a reference on page 559 of the previous hear-
ing to a loyalty oath dated June 21, 1941, which I took, one on August
26, 1936, one on August 29, 1935, and one on July 9, 1934.

Mr. Arens. As of the time you took those loyalty oaths, were you
a member of the Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the grounds I
already stated.

Mr. Arens. Wliile you were with the National Labor Relations
Board as one-third of the membership of that Board, did you know of
the existence of a conspiratorial apparatus consisting of Abt, Witt,
and Kramer?

Mr. Smith. I had no such knowledge,

Mr. Arens. Did you know John Abt ?

Mr. Smith. I am not sure whether I knew John Abt.

Mr. Arens. Of course you knew Nathan Witt ?

Mr. Smith. I knew Mr. Witt, certainly.

Mr. Arens. Did you know Charles Kramer?

Mr. Smith. I don't recall whether I knew Kramer.

Mr. Arens. Did you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ?

Mr. Smith. Yes, I knew Mr. Silvermaster.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3475

Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your acquaintanceship with
him?

Mr. Smith. Purely a social acquaintanceship.

Mr. Arens. Was that tlie extent of your acquaintanceship with him?

Mr. Smith. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your acquaintanceship with Mr.
Silvermaster, Avliile you were a member of the National Labor Rela-
tions Board, did you know whether or not he was a member of the
Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. Smith. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds already
stated.

Mr. Arens. When were you last at the Soviet Embassy?

Mr. Smith. I really can't recall. I should say within the last month,
possibly within the last 2 or 3 weeks.

Mr. Arens. How many times have you been to the Soviet Embassy
in the course of the last year?

Mr. Smith. I am unable to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Have you been to the Soviet Embassy in the course of
the last year as many as a dozen times?

Mr. Smith. I would doubt it.

Mr. Arens. Have you been there as many as six times?

Mr. Smith. Possibly.

Mr. Arens. Whom do you see when you go to the Soviet Embassy ?

Mr. Smith. I see different people on different occasions.

Mr. Arens. Let us have the names of the people you see there?

Mr. Smith. The ])erson that I see there most frequently is a man
by the name of Kastioukhin.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly spell his name?

Mr. Smith. I am not quite sure of the spelling, but I will give it to
the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Arens. Give it phonetically.

Mr. Smith. K-a-s-t-i-o-u-k-h-i-n.

Mr. Arens. What was the purpose of your visit with Mr.
Kastioukhin of the Soviet Embassy ?

Mr. Smith. The purpose of my visit with Mr. Kastioukhin, my
several visits, because I have seen him more than once, were in con-
nection with furthering the purposes of my business.

Mr. Arens. And tlie purpose of your business is to disseminate
Communist propaganda in this country, is that correct?

Mr. Smith. I certainly would not describe it that way, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. Is this propaganda which you receive from behind
the Iron Curtain and label in accordance with the provisions of the
Foreign Agents Registration Act. Communist propaganda?

Mr. Smith. I don't consider news photographs which I distribute
Communist propaganda, nor do I believe they are so considered by
my customers. I think they are considered part of the interchange
of news which goes on beyond this and any country.

Mr. Arens. Do you have any information, some publications, some
periodicals, which you disseminate in this country, which are labeled
in accordance with the provisions of the Foreign Agents Registration
Act?

Mr. Smith. I don't disseminate any.

Mr. Arens. Do you transmit it ?

Mr. Smith. I don't transmit it.

3476 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Do you receive such material ?

Mr. Smith. I receive periodicals for my own information, but not
for dissemination or transmission.

Mr. Arens. Do you, in accordance with your work and this enter-
prise which you operate, label material pursuant to the provisions
of the Foreign Agents Registration Act ?

Mr. Smith. I do. May I add that I have conformed to all of the
requirements in that regard, not only as set forth in the statutes, in
the regulations, but as specifically approved by Mr. Foley, who was at
the time the Director of the Foreign Agents Registration Division.

Mr. ScHERER. I can see why he does. It is smart to do what he does,
comply with the law.

Mr. Arens. The Foreign Agents Registration Act is applicable to
foreign political propaganda, is it not?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Then the material which you label is foreign political
propaganda, is it not ?

Mr. Smith. I suppose within the terms of the act it is.

Mr. Arens. And it is foreign political propaganda emanating from
beliind the Iron Curtain, is it not ?

Mr. Smith. It is foreign political propaganda, if you want to use
that phrase

Mr. Arens. I am asking you to use the phrase if it is truthful.

Mr. Smith. From the countries which I have already listed as
those with which I am dealing.

Mr. Arens. Let us start over again. The material which you
label is foreign political propaganda, is it not? Otherwise you
would not have to label it under the Foreign Agents Registration
Act.

Mr. Smith. I am not — excuse me.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. I would simply state again that I have complied with
,all the provisions of the Registration Act and also reaffirm my
statement that, practically, I do not consider these news photographs
to be political propaganda. That is my personal opinion.

Mr. Arens. But to make the record clear, you label it pursuant
to those provisions of the Foreign Agents Registration Act which
require the labeling of foreign political propaganda, is that not true?

Mr. Smith. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. And this foreign political propaganda which you
label emanates from behind the Iron Curtain, is that correct?

Mr. Smith. It emanates from the countries which I have already
defined.

Mr. Arens. Are those countries which you have defined, countries
behind the Iron Curtain ?

Mr. Smith. That is your characterization. I am not disposed to
use that particular phrase.

Mr. Arens. You feel that might be offensive to the development
of the friendships which you were undertaking to develop on your
trip to the Soviet Union, is that correct?

Mr. Smith. I think it doesn't add to the possibilities of goodwill
between this country and other countries.

Mr. Arens. Do you feel that we can develop a bona fide goodwill
with the conspirators in the Kremlin?

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3477

Mr. Smith. Mr. Counsel, I would not care to undertake any dis-
cussion here of a nature relating to international affairs, general
political discussions. I might say that when I undertook the agency,
the functions of the agency which I am now pursuing, I, myself,
resigned from all organizations which had any kind of a social or
political connection, because I felt that was appropriate due to the
nature of my work. I therefore don't feel myself called upon to
discuss such matters.

Mr. Kearney. JSIr. Chairman, may I make an observation?
The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Kearney. This morning, Mr. Smith, you mentioned the
countries that you Avere acting for as agent in compliance with the
laws of this country. Were any of those nations that you mentioned
this morning in what I call the free world countries, or were they
all behind the Iron Curtain?

Mr. Smith. I am sure they are not included within the category
which you would call the free world countries.

Mr. Kearney. In other words, they are all behind the Iron Curtain ?
Mr. Smith. They are commonly spoken of in distinction to the
free world countries.

Mr. Arens. To whom do you sell or distribute the material which
you receive from behind the Iron Curtain ?

Mr. Smith. I distribute it primarily, as far as the photographs
are concerned, to all the news agencies, the Associated Press, the Inter-
national News Service, the United Press. I have an agreement with
each of those agencies by which all pictures coming from the Soviet
Union are first shown to them before they are shown to otlier pros-
pective customers, and they pay me a monthly service charge for
furnishing them with opportunity to purchase such photographs.
Thereafter, if I may conclude the answer a little more fully, thereafter
I sell to all the leading picture magazines. Life, Time, Newsweek,
U. S. News and World Report. I sell Inrire numbers of mv photo-
graphs to the United States State Department, and I sell photo-
graphs from time to time to the Marine Corps Gazette, and to other
Army, and I don't know about Navy, but certainly other Army
publications.

Mr. Arens. Do you have occasion in the course of your activities to
procure and transmit back behind the Iron Cyrtain, photographs of
any kind, character, or description which are initiated or developed
in this country ?

Mr. Smith.' No, I do not. Mine is a one-way business.

Mr. Arens. Exclusively one way?

Mr. Smith. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Do you disseminate here or sell here anything else be-
sides photographs?

Mr. Smith. I explained this morning that I have a relationship to
books and music.

Mr. Arens. Are those books principally books which originate be-
hind the Iron Cnrtain?

Mr. Smith. Those are books which I receive only from the Soviet
Union.

Mr. Arens. Are they Communist propaganda?

Mr. Smith. I don't think they are even regarded as Communist
propaganda in terms of the act. Certainly there is no requirement of

3478 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

their being labeled. I think a scientific book on nuclear physics, let
us say, which I might receive from the Soviet Union, would be rather
ridiculous to label as political propaganda or a book in any other
scientific field, wliich I get a great many of, including medicine.

Mr. Arens. Do you receive and transmit material of any kind,
character, or description from R^d China?

Mr. Smith. I receive photographs from China,

Mr. Arens. Do you receive any from Rsd China?

Mr. Smith. Yes. I am talking about China, the mainland of China.

Mr. Arens. That is the China which is under the domination of the
international Communist conspiracy ; is that correct ?

Mr. Smith. As far as I am concerned, the name is the Chinese
Peooles Republic.

Mr. Arens. What is the nature of the material you receive from
Red China?

Mr. Smith. News photographs.

Mr. Arens. How much do you have to pay for the material which
you receive from the Communist controlled countries?

Mr. Smith. I don't pay anything for the photographs. The photo-
graphs are sent to me on consignment. I sell the photographs or,
rather, I sell the right to reproduce the photographs, and then I trans-
mit a certain portion of the sales to the foreign principal, a certain
portion of the money received for the sales, and the balance I retain
for the agency.

Mr. Arens. "Who is your foreign principal or foreign principals?

Mr. Smith. Do you want the entire list ?

Mr. Arens. Do you have a whole list of them ?

Mr. Smith. Certainly. I might say also that that is not only
available in the testimony previously referred to before the Senate
Internal Security Committee, but also in my regular semi-annual
statements to the Department of Justice.

Mr. Arens. Then we will get the information from there and not
take the time for an enumeration of the entire list.

Do you have business relations with Tass, the Russian agency?

Mr. Smith. No.

Mr. Arens. Do you have business relations with any of the official
agencies of the Soviet Government in the United States, other than
the Embassy, which you have already described ?

Mr. Smith. No, I d(5 not.

Mr. Arens. Are your contacts with the Russian Embassy, exclu-
sively in the furtherance of your work to distribute this literature
and these photographs in the United States ?

Mr. Smith. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Do you presently know anyone in the employ of the
United States Government whom you have known at any time as a
member of the Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. Smith. I would decline to answer that question on the same
grounds already asserted.

Mr. Arens. Did you succeed someone in this position that you now
occupy, or did you originate this company ?

Mr. Smith. I stated this morning that the agency had been in ex-
istence for the past 20 or more years.

Mr. Arens. Who was your predecessor in the position that you
occupy ?

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3479

Mr. Smith. My predecessor was a lady by the name of Black, Miss
Helen Black, who died in 1952, and who had been operating the
agency for a great many years.

Mr. Arens. Was she a member of the Communist conspiracy?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the grounds al-
ready expressed.

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Smith, do you know of anyone in the United
States Government today, to your own knowledge, who is engaged
in wliat I call espionage work with the Russian Government ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the grounds already
expressed.

Mr. Kearney. In other words, you refuse to give this committee
the names of anyone you know who are today engaged in espionage
against their own Government?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. I attempted to say in my answer, and I hope I did,
to make it clear, that I haven't said that I know anyone. I decline
to answer the question.

]\Ir. Kearney, Do you know of anyone ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the grounds already
stated.

Mr. Kearney. We finally got the truth out of you.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Smith, during the course of your membership as
one-thii'd of the National Labor Relations Board, did you have contacts
with th'^ Russian Embassy ?

Mr. Smith. No, not in the sense, I think, that you mean it. I had
no business relationships with tlie Russian Embassy.

Mr. Arens. Did you have any other relationships with the Russian
Embassy ?

Mr. Smith. Yes, I went occasionally to social functions at the
Russian Embassy.

Mr. Arens. Did you ever identify yourself to a member of the
officialdom in the Russian Embassy as a member of the Communist
Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Saftth. I dcf^line to answer that question on the same grounds.

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, this seems to be quite a joke between
the witness and his counsel. I cannot see any humor in this situation.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. Will you excuse me just 1 minute?
* (The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. Mr. Arens, I would like to chan<re the answer to the
question that I previously gave, namely that I would like to state now
that never did I identify myself to any official in the Soviet Embassy
as a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Who was the general counsel of the National Labor
Relations Board while you were a member of the Board ?

Mr. Smith. The most recent — the latest General Counsel was, I
believe, Robert Watts. May 1 consult with my counsel, who was

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smith. I will amend that answer and say Charles Fay.

Mr. Arens. Was your counsel here today an employee of the Na-
tional Labor Relations Board ?

Mr. Smith. He was at one time.

3480 COMMUNIST ESrriLTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

^ Mr. Arens. When was he an employee of the National Labor
Kehitions Board?

Mr. Smith. During a portion of the period I was on the Board.
Mr. Arens. In what capacity did he serve ?
;Mr. Smith. He was on the legal staif.

Mr. Arens. ^V\\o was the predecessor as General Counsel to the
gentleman whose name you just gave ?
Mr. Smith. I believe Mr. Magruder.
Mr. Arens. His full name, please.

^Ir. Smith. Calvert Magruder, now a circuit court judge in
Massachusetts.

Mr. Arens. While you have been associated with your present
agency, have you had any business dealings with India or with
Indonesia ?

Mr. Smith. I had a relationship of rather short duration with the
Embassies of both India and Indonesia, in terms of their supplying
me with pliotogra])hs for sale on the same basis as other countries
mentioned that supply them to me.
Mr. Arens. When was that ?

Mr. SsriTii. I believe that was in 1953, maybe in 1954. I am not
sure. Perhaps 1954.

ISIr, Arens. Can you give us a fair estimate of the total remittances
which you have made in the course of the last year behind the Iron
Curtain ?

Mr. Smith. I wouldn't undertake to give yon such an estimate
because I don't have those figures readily in mind. However, all
of that material is covered by the reports to the Department of
Justice.

Mr. Arens. How large a type do you use to identify this material on
its face, pursuant to the provisions of the Foreign Agents Registra-
tion Act?

Mr. Smith. How big a type ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

]\Ir. SisriTH. I am not an expert on the size of types. It is a rubber
stamp which is clearly legible which I use.

Mr. Arens. What does it say on the rubber stamp ?
Mr, Smith. I can't recall, actually. It is the form prescribed
by tlie Department of Justice.

!Mr. Arens. It doesn't say anything about being Communist prop-
aganda, does it?
Mr, Smith. No.

Mr. Arfns. It does not say anything about being foreign political
propaganda, does it ?

Mr. Smith. It doesn't say foreign political propaganda. It says
roughly, as I recall it, that this is material labeled in accordance with
the provisions of the Foreign Registration Act, and that the TTnited
States Government accepts no responsibility one way or another for
the accuracy of the material, etc.

Mr. Arens. Do you distribute any of this material to schools and
cor^ires in the country ?

Mr. Smith. Yes. I haven't done so recently. At one time one of
the largest customers was Columbia University, which had a regular
contracl; with us for copying our photographs. In fact. I think they
copied almost all photographs that were in the file. We no longer
have that relationship because they finished their job in that respect.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3481

Mr. Arens. Do you have any relationship with a firm or business
entity of any kind, character, or description in Red Korea ?

Mr. Smith. No.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever had ?

Mr. Smith. No.

Mr. Arens. Can you not, in the interest of servinoj the cause of the
interna] security of the Nation of which you are a citizen, and to which
you took an oath of allegiance, give this committee even an iota of
information respecting the identity of persons known by you to be in
the Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. Smith. I think I already answered that question in terms of
my specific replies on particular individuals.

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I submit he has not answered the
question. He says he thinks he has answered that question by previous
replies. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the question.

The Chairman. He refused to answer.

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us in a word whether or not you have any
business relationships with East Photo?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Identify East Photo for us.

Mr. Smith. East Photo is one of the trade names which I mentioned
before, under which I conduct business. The photographs which come
from China and the East European countries, are all sold under the
East Photo label, as distinguished from Sov-Photo, which covers
photographs from the Soviet Union.

Mr. Arens. You do not distribute anything from Formosa, do you ?

Mr. Smith. No ; I do not.

Mr. Kearney. That is the question I was going to ask, counsel, as to
whether or not, when you referred to the word "China," you meant
the mainland or "Formosa."

Mr. Smith. I meant the mainland of China.

Mr. Kearney. In other words, you do not do any business with
Formosa at all ?

Mr. Smith. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Have you distributed in the course of your operations,
any photographs allegedly depicting the use of germ warfare by the
United States in Korea ?

Mr. Van Arkel. This is thoroughly covered before the Senate
committee.

Mr. Arens. I am waiting for an answer.

Mr. Smith. I could refresh myself by looking at this testimony, but
I think I have it fairly clearly in mind. I distributed a number of
such photographs and a number of such photographs were purchased,
and at the request of the Senate Interial Security Committee, I fur-
nished them with a list of the purchasiiirs which appears in the testi-
mony before that committee.

Mr. Arens. Did your conscience botln^r you any in distributing that
type of international Communist propiganda against the boys who
were laying their breasts bare to a deadly enemy of this Nation?

Mr. Smith. Not in the slightest.

Mr. Arens. That is all.

The Chairman. Are there any questiciis?

Mr. Willis. No questions.

Mr. Kjiarney. No questions.

3482 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. ScHERER. I have one question.

Do you ever receive any compensation, either directly or indirectly
from tlie Communist Party ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the grounds already
expressed.

Mr. ScHERER. Do you receive any compensation either directly or
indirectly from any known Communist ajrent in this country?

Mr. Smith. I answer the question in the same w-ay, I decline to
answer for the reasons already stated.

Mr. ScHERER. What year were you appointed a member of the
National Labor Relations Board?

Mr. Smith. 1934, the first Board, and 1935 the second Board.

Mr. ScHERER. Let me ask counsel a question. I was not here this
morning, and I want to know whether or not you asked him, or any
member of the committee asked him, how he obtained that appoint-
ment.

Mr. Arens. I do not believe we asked him.

Mr. Scherer. How did you obtain the appointment?

Mr. Smith. Again, that was set forth in the previous testimony
that I have referred to. I obtained the appointment at the suggestion
of Frances Perkins, or at least she was the person who notified me
that I had been appointed.

Mr. Scherer. Did you make application for the appointment ?

Mr. Smith. No; I did not.

Mr. Scherer. Is she tlie one who was responsible, then, for your
appointment to the National Labor Relations Board?

Mr. Smith. I would hesitate to say that. In fact, I don't think I
can say it out of my knowledge. All I can say is that she notified me
that there was a possibility of my being appointed to the Board by the
President, and would I be interested to accept the post if I were ap-
pointed.

Mr. Scherer. Do you know who went to the President and recom-
mended you ?

Ml-. SiviiTH. I know nothing more about it.

Mr. Scherer. Did you know Frances Perkins prior to the time
that she contacted you with reference to this appointment?

Mr. Smith. I know nothing about those circumstances.

Mr. Scherer. How long before she had this conversation with you,
w^hich you have just related to us, did you know her ? For how long a
period?

Mr. Smith. I have known Miss Perkins over a period of years. Of
course, before she came here as Secretary of Labor, she had been Com-
missioner of Labor in New York at the same time that I was Commis-
sioner of Labor and Industries in Massachusetts. So I had occasion
to meet her more than once.

Mr. Scherer. And the first knowledge that you had of a possible
appointment to the National Labor Relations Board came when Miss
Perkins contacted you and asked whether you would be interested in
such an appointment?

Mr. Smith. That is correct.

Mr. Scherer. I suppose you have been asked this question, but at
the time of your appointment were you a member of the Communist
Party?

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3483

Mr. Smith. I have already answered that question, I believe. If
I have not, I would now answer that I decline to answer on the grounds
already stated.

Mr. ScHERER. To your knowledge, did Miss Perkins know whether
or not you were a member of the Communist Party i

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question also on the same
grounds, Mr. Representative.

Mr. ScHERER. Did you disclose to Miss Perkins at the time of your
appointment whether or not you were a member of the Communist
Party? I am not asking you to state whether you were or were not
a member of the party, but did you disclose to her at the time whether
you were or were not a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Smith. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds
I have ah'eady expressed.

Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions.

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Smith, I would like to have you clear up for me,
if you will, a question which was asked by counsel about the pictures
of germ warfare in Korea. The observation was advanced as to
wheiher it bothered your conscience or not, and you said "Not in the
slightest." Will you clear that up for me, please ?

Mr. Smith. Yes. I will be glad to amplify that. I discussed the
question of these alleged germ warfare pictures at some length before
the Senate Internal Security Committee, and I explained to them as I
am glad to explain to you, that all pictures that come to me I am obli-
gated, under my arrangements with various persons with whom I dis-
tribute them, to show them to them. At the time these pictures of
alleged germ warfare were sent to me, there was a very wide interest
in this subject.

Mr. Kearney. Let me interrupt you there. Those pictures were
sent to you from where?

Mr. Smith. From China.

Mr. Kearney. From Red China ?

Mr. Smith. Yes, certainly. I'hey were sent from the China main-
land, through China Photo Service, which is the organization I deal
with. Incidentally, a reference to the testimony before the Internal
Security Committee would show that all of these pictures were shown
to organizations, media of news distribution, television companies, et
cetera, who used them specifically to disprove the allegation of germ
warfare.

Mr. Kearney. In other words, the pictures that you refer to dis-
proved the allegations ?

Mr. Smith. I say they were used in a fashion to try to disprove any
charges.

Mr. Kearney. I asked you. Did these pictures disprove the charge
of germ warfare ?

Mr. Smith. The pictures did not specifically disprove. In fact,
they were sent out with an attempt to affirm the charges of germ war-
fare. But I say that they were utilized by people to disprove the
charges. In other words, those who used the photographs claimed that
they were fake photographs.

Mr. Kearney Did you, yourself, ever attempt to disprove these pic-
tures on the charge of germ warfare that were put out by our enemies ?

70811 — 5(3 — i)t. 5 8

3484 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Smith. Mr. Representative, I don't handle my pictures in that
fashion. I am dealing with adult persons, and the biggest

Mr. Kearney. In other words, you send your pictures out as they
come to you ?

Mr. Smith. Exactly, and I sent the biggest

Mr. Kearney, "Wliether they are true or not ?

Mr. Smith. Certainly. I could hardly make a distinction with the
New York Times, let us say, between a picture which I regarded as
true and you regarded as true. I leave that up to the customer.

Mr. Kearney. Are you an American citizen?

Mr. Smith. Yes ; I am an American citizen.

Mr. Kearney. And still at the same time, you would send out, re-
gardless of any truth, any propaganda pictures that came in, charging
germ warfare on the part of our Armed Forces ?

Mr. Smith. I think I can only answer the question this way, Mr.
Kearney, by saying that if I had received those pictures and failed
to send them on to the agencies that expect to receive pictures from
me, as they come in, that I would have been subject to a very legiti-
mate kick on the part of my customers. I would kick if I were in
their place.

Mr. Kearney. In other words, you mean by that you would have
lost a pretty good job?

Mr. Smith. No ; I don't mean

Mr. Kearney. That is, being on the side of the right ?

Mr. Smith. Let me finish my statement.

Mr. Kearney'. Go ahead.

Mr. Smith. I don't mean that those pictures in and of themselves
brought in a revenue that was important one way or another. But it
is important to me to fulfill my obligation to my customers, and the
obligation does not include prior censorship by me as to what pictures
they may see.

Mr. Scherer. Is that a superior obligation to that which you owe
to your country?

Mr. Smith. I don't look at it in that light at all. I don't under-
stand that argument. If you are saying the Associated Press should
be protected by me from seeing photographs of alleged germ warfare,
I can't follow that type of argument.

Mr. ScFiERER. Do not twist it. I did not say anything about the
Associated Press.

I think he has answered it.

The Chairman. The witness is excused.

Call your next witness.

Mr. Arens. If it please the chairman, the next witness will be
Samuel M. Koenigsberg, K-o-e-n-i-g-s-b-e-r-g.

Please remain standing, Mr. Koenigsberg, and raise your right hand
to be sworn.

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing iDut the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I do.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3485

TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL M. KOENIGSBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, OSMOND K. FRAENKEL

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. My name is Samuel M. Koenigsberg, K-o-e-
n-i-g-s-b-e-r-g. I live at 34 Clinton Place, Newark, N. J., and I am
an attorney.

Mr. Arens. Are you licensed to practice law in the State of New
Jersey ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. And are there any other States in which you are li-
censed to practice?

Mr. Koenigsberg. In the State of New York.

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing here today, Mr. Koenigsberg, in
response to a subpena served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I am.

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Fraenkel. Osmond K. Fraenkel, 120 Broadway, New York
City.

Mr. Arens. And the firm with which you are identified ?

Mr. Fraenkel. I am appearing on my own behalf, not on behalf of
the law firm. I am connected with a law firm, but not now on behalf
of tlie law firm.

Mr. Arens. Tell us the name of the firm.

Mr. Fraenkel. Hays, St. John, Abramson & Heilbron, of which the
late Hon. Arthur Garfield Hays was the senior member.

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you will, sir, a brief sketch of your personal
history. Where were you born and when ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I was born in New York City, January 25, 1911.

Mr. Arens. And a word about your education ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I hold the degree of bachelor of arts from Colum-
bia College, a degree of bachelor of laws from the Columbia Law
School.

Mr. Arens. T^Hien did you graduate from Columbia ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. 1 graduated from college in 1933, and from the
law school in 1934.

Mr. Arens. Did that complete your formal education ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I think I started, as I remember I started, a course
in an accounting school, but I did not pursue it.

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, just the dates and the places of
your employment since you concluded your formal education.

Mr. Koenigsberg. I worked in an oflRce in New York for a few
months after I graduated from law school. Then I came to Washing-
ton. I worked for the Senate committee investigating the munitions
industry.

Mr. Arens. Wliat date was that ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. It would be approximately the winter of 1934-35,
as I remember it.

Mr. Arens. Was that a special committee investigating the muni-
tions industry?

Mr. Koenigsberg. That is correct.

3486 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. On the Senate side or the House side ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. The Senate committee investigating the muni-
tions industry.

Mr. Arens, "Wlio was chairman of that committee ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. Senator Gerakl P. Nye.

Mr, Arens. Was that committee investigating the industry that
produced weapons to defend this country ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. Tliat was one phase of the investigation at that
time ; yes.

Mr. Arens. How did you get your job with the Senate Special
Committee on Investigation of the Munitions Industry?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. As I recall, I applied to a number of agencies for
a job, and including the Senate committee. I got a job there.

Mr. Arens. How did you know there was a prospective vacancy on
that committee?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. It goes back a long time. I am really not quite
certain.

Mr. Arens. Was your job with the Senate committee munitions in-
dustry investigation in 1935 procured for you or suggested to you or
facilitated for your procurement by any person known by you to be a
member of the Communist Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I have stated I don't recall just how I got that job^

Mr. Arens. Is that your answer ?

Mr. KoENiGsr.ERG. That is the answer.

Mr. Arens. Was any person on the staff of that Senate munitions
investigation committee in 1935 known by you to be a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I am afraid I will have to decline to answer that
question on tlie following grounds: The law authorizing this commit-
tee is unconstitutional ; as was stated by Judge Clark in the Second
Circuit, and by Judge Edgerton of the Court of Appeals for the Dis-
trict of Columbia. The object of this hearing has been specified by
the committee as one of exposing individuals.

Mr. Arens. Are you reading from a paper now ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Yes ; I am reading from a paper.

Mr. Arens. Who wrote that manuscript from which you are read-
ing?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I did.

Mr. Arens. Did you consult with any person known by you to be a
member of the Communist conspiracy in the process of preparing that
manuscript ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. May I finish this paper ?

Mr. Arens, Just answer that question,

Mr, Koenigsberg. I understand it is the practice of the committee to
permit a person to state the grounds on why he is declining to answer.

Mr. Arens. Was that paper prepared by a person known to you to
be a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was that paper you are
now publicly reading before the Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties a protest against this committee prepared by a person known by
you to be a member of the Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I don't regard this paper to be a protest.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3487

Mr. Arens. Answer the question as to whether or not that paper you
are now reading was prepared in whole or in part by a person known
by you to be a member of the Communist conspiracy.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. KoENiGSRERG. The answer to that question will depend on the
previous question, and you are not letting me answer the previous
question.

The Chairman. You are not answering the question.

Do you decline to answer the question ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I am stating the grounds for my declining to
answer.

The Chairman. Do you decline to answer the question ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. Yes.

The Chairman. Proceed.

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I would state the grounds for my declining to
answer the question. The object of this hearing has been speci-
fied by the committee as one of exposing individuals, which is not
a proper legislative function.

The Chairman. You have been misinformed. You have just put
together all of the Commie propaganda in that one sheet. What you
have said this minute is not true. If you will look at the first hearing,
you will find the object. It is not to expose at all. That cannot be
helped if, in its work, we incidentally turn up people like yourself.
But we are interested now in trying to ascertain ways and means
of protecting our Government from having the same thing happen
again, particularly during wartime. We stated the purpose of this
hearing very plainly, and what you are reading is certainly not
one of the reasons for this inquiry.

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. May I tell you where I got that statement ? That
statement appears in the annual report of this committee for the year
1955.

The Chairman. We are talking now about the purpose of this par-
ticular hearing.

Mr, KoENiGSBERG. Tliese particular hearings were so characterized
in the annual report of the committee for 1955.

The Chairman. Go ahead and read it.

Mr, KoENiGSBERG, The object of this hearing hns been specified
by the committee as one of exposing individuals, which is not a
proper legislative function.

Mr, Kearney, May I interrupt you there ?

You mean that the proper legislative function of this committee
is not to expose communism in this country?

Mr, Koenigsberg, I think the function of this committee is speci-
fied in the statute authorizing it, and I don't know that I can add
or subtract from that.

The Chairman. Wliat is in that statute ?

Mr, Koenigsberg, If there is a statute around here, I will be able
to tell you.

The Chairman. I thought you knew. Go ahead and read it.

Mr. Koenigsberg. The question inquires into my beliefs and asso-
ciations in violation of the first amendment to the Constitution.
The question inquires into private affairs unrelated to a valid legis-
lative purpose, and it invades my right to privacy.^ The inquiry
stems from an accusation made against me in connection with mat-

3488 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

ters which occurred nearly 20 years ago, and the question is not
pertinent to any valid legislative purpose. It arises in a context
of an accusation made against me in a situation analogous to a
criminal investigation and trial, but without the safeguards of such
proceeding; in violation of my rights under the due process clause
of the fifth amendment to the Constitution. To require me to an-
swer also violates my right under the fifth amendment not to be com-
pelled to be a \yitness against myself. The similarity of these pro-
ceedings and criminal proceedings is also in violation of the consti-
tutional separation of powers which assigns law enforcement func-
tions exclusively to the executive and judicial departments of the
Government. The right to be free of an inquiry of this character
is further protected by the 9th and 10th amendments to the Consti-
tution, since the Federal Government is one of limited powers which
the committee in this question is exceeding. Reserving all other
rights available to me, I object to this question and to the extent
that the law permits I shall object to any other questions to which
any of those grounds apply.

The Chairman. You say you object to this question ? What ques-
tion is it you are objecting to?

Mr. KoENTGSBERG. I liave lost the question now, but I know what
these grounds apply to.

The Chairman. You are objecting to something you do not
remember ? Tell him what he is objecting to.

Mr. Arens. He is objecting to the question: whether or not he
knew any person to be a Communist on the United States Senate
Munitions Investigating Committee when he was on that staff in
1935.

Did that list of objections include an invocation of that provision of
the fifth amendment against self-incrimination ?

Mr. Fraenkel. It did.

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. It iucludes the

Mr. Arens. Did this munitions industry investigation to which
you were attached, undertake to rout out Communists or was it ex-
clusively to develop facts ?

Mr. KoENiGSRERG. I dou't quite understand your question.

Mr. Arens. What was the purpose of the investigation of the muni-
tions industry?

Mr. Koenigsberg. The purpose of the investigation was to inves-
tigate the munitions industry.

Mr. Arens. Did you, during the course of your work with that
investigative committee, have access to restricted or confidential
information ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Not that I recall.

Mr. Arens. How long were you with that committee ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I was with that committee for about 2 years,
I guess.

Mr. Arens. That gets us up to about 1937 ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. 1936 or 1937.

Mr. Arens. Pick it up there, if you please, Mr. Koenigsberg. What
was your next employment ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I next worked for the Senate Wheeler commit-
tee which was investigating railroad finance and reorganization.

Mr. Arens. Who were some of the staff members on that com-
mittee ?

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3489

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. Ml". Max Lowenthal was the counsel to the
committee.

Mr. Arens. Can you recall other employees who were on that com-
mittee staff with you ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. Are you going to suggest somebody ?

Mr. Arens. You suggest them. You were there and I was not.

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. This goes back about 20 years, Mr, Arens.

Mr. Arexs. I think you can probably come up with another name
if you try real hard. Who else was on that staff with you? Think
real hard. Maybe I can help you with one name. Let me try a name
and see if it helps you out. Did you know a person on that staff by
the name of James E. Gorham?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I rcfuse to answer that question on the grounds
I have stated.

Mr. Arens. Let us see if you can think of someone else who was
on that staff with you. I recognize that is back in 1937 and it is prob-
ably hard to remember. Were there others on the staff beside this
man you have identified and the man that I have identified as James
Gorham ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I don't know that I have identified anybody as
James Gorham.

Mr. Arens. I say the man I have identified as James Gorham. Can
you think of anyone else who was on that staff; that is, besides you
and the staff director ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. Excusc me a minute.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. Mr. Telford Taylor was on the staff of the com-
mittee. Mr. John F. Davis was on the staff of the committee.

Mr. Kearney. Telford Taylor ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. Yes.

Mr. Kearney. Who else ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Mr. John F. Davis was on the staff of the com-
mittee.

Mr. Arens. How about a man by the name of Herbert Fuchs?
Does the name Herbert Fuchs ring a bell ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that you were a member of a Communist Party cell when you
were working for the Senate Wheeler committee in 1937, which con-
sisted among other persons of yourself, James Gorham, and Herbert
Fuchs.

Mr. Willis. All employees of that committee ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Koenigsberg. I have already told you, Mr. Arens, that I would
refuse to answer questions from this committee to the extent that the
law permits, and T decline to answer this question.

Mr. Arens. Why do you decline to tell this committee whether or
not Herbert Fuchs and James Gorham were on that committee staff
with you ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I already stated the grounds.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee truthfully whether or not these men were on that committee
staff with you, you would be supplying information which would be
used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)

3490 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. Under the Emspak case of the United States
Supreme Court. I object to that question.

The Chairman. Do you decline to answer the question ?

Mr. Arens. I respectfully su,2:^est, Mr. Chairman, he be ordered
and directed to answer the question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

Mr. Koenigsberg. Mr. Chairman, the Supreme Court has held that
if the specific

The Chairman. Do you decline to answer the question ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I have not yet declined. I have raised an objec-
tion.

The Chairman. You do not object to the questions; you decline to
answer them.

Mr. Koenigsberg, It seems to me the Supreme Court said that
objections are to be raised

The Chairman. Do you decline to answer that question ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Yes.

The Chairman. On what cfrounds?

Mr. Koenigsberg. On the grounds that the committee may not re-
quire me to disclose the reason for my invocation of the privilege not
to be a witness against myself.

Mr. Arens. We are not asking you to disclose the reason. We are
asking to find out whether or not you are using the fifth amendment
capriciously, or whether or not on the other hand you honestly do
apprehend that a truthful answer to the question would incriminate
you. You know that is the only reason why we are asking that ques-
tion. Please answer the question.

(Witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Koenigsberg. I don't think you have a right to inquire into
that, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. Do you decline to answer the question ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I do decline to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. Did you, in the course of your employment on the
Wheeler committee in 1937, know a person by the name of Ellis George
Glim?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I did.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he was a Communist ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your acquaintanceship with
Ellis Olim?

Mr. Koenigsberg. It was very casual. I have no recollection,

Mr. Arens. Where was he employed ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I believe he was employed with the Interstate
Commerce Commission.

Mr. Arens. Was he on loan to the Wlieeler committee ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I really don't recall.

Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in any group or organization of
which he was a member?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Let us get to your next employment, please. We have
just concluded your employment in 1937 with the Senate Wheeler com-
mittee, that is, the Subcommittee To Investigate Kailroads, Holding
Companies, and Related Matters. What was your next employment?

Mr. Koenigsberg. My next employment was

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3491

Mr. Arens. You went to the Depatrment of Agriculture in 1937,
didn't you ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I think I was on the payroll of the Department
of Agriculture, on loan to the Wheeler committee. That is the Senate
committee investigating the railroad financing and investigation.

Mr. Arens. Let us get to 1938. You were with the Securities and
Exchange Commission as an attorney, were you not ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I believe I was ; yes.

Mr. Arens. Was that employment procured or facilitated in any
way by a person known by you to be a member of the Communist
Party ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I have already told you that I would decline to
answer questions of this character on the grounds I have stated.

Mr. Arens. Do not use a blanket declination. Do you decline to
answer that question because you feel if you gave a truthful answer
you would be supplying information which could be used against
you in a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline on the several grounds I have previously
stated.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told us whether
or not your employment in the SEC was obtained for you by a person
known by you to be in the Communist conspiracy, you would be fur-
nishing information which could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ?

Mr. Koenigsberg, I decline to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that he be directed to answer the
question. ^

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer the question.

Mr. Arens, What was your next employment after SEC ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I was with SEC for about 10 years, I guess.

Mr. Arens. You left in 1948 ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Yes ; to enter private practice,

Mr, Arens. Both Mr. Fuchs and Mr. Gorham identified you as a
member of the Communist Party. Were they lying or telling the
truth to this committee ?

Mr, Koenigsberg, I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens, During the course of your employment in the Federal
Government, did you ever sign a loyalty oath ?

Mr, Koenigsberg. What do you mean by a loyalty oath ?

Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document en-
titled, "Personal History Statement" with a signature at the end of it,
"Samuel M. Koenigsberg," and ask if you can identify that signature.

(Document handed witness.)

(Witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, Arens, Can you say whether or not that is your signature? I
am not asking you to read the entire document. Is that your sig-
nature ?

Mr, Koenigsberg. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact

Mr. Kearney. Counsel, is that after reading the entire photostatic
copy that he declined to answer the question ?

Mr, Koenigsberg, I skimmed through it ; yes,

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that that is your signature to this document dated July 1943.

3492 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I havB declined to answer that question, and I do
decline to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to question 26, in this particular
photostatic copy of the personal history statement, which reads as
follows :

Are you a member of any Communist or German Bund organization or any
political party or organization which advocates the overthrow of our constitu-
tional form of government in the United States or do you have membership
in, or any affiliation with, any group, association, or organization which advo-
cates, or lends support to any organization or movement advocating, the over-
throw of our constitutional form of government in the United States?

After that question is a "No." Did you put the "No" there in
answer to question No. 26 ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Aeens, I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you did put the "No" to the question ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I decline to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. Do it again.

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist conspiracy at
the time you filled out j^our personal history statement for your job
in 1943?

Mr. Koenigsberg. As I understand your use of the term, T decline
to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. What qualifications would you make on the use of the
term ? Don't you like the term "Communist conspiracy" ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I am saying with respect to my understanding
of that term, I decline to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. Do you think it would be a little nicer to say Commu-
nist Party ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I am not suggesting the question.

Mr. Arens. We will change it. Were you a member of the Com-
munist Party at the time you filled out that personal history state-
ment form in 1943 ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Then it would not make any difference whether it is
Communist conspiracy or Communist Party from the standpoint of
your answer, would it ?

Were you associated with the American League for Peace and
Democracy ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Were you aware of the existence of a Commmiist Party
cell in the SEC in 1948?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Wliy?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that he be ordered and directed
to answer the question as to why.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer that question on the several
gi-ounds I have previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Marian Anderson Citizens
Committee ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Did somebody say I was ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3493

Mr. KoEisnGSBERG. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Washington Bookshop?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. A member of the Washington Committee for Demo-
cratic Action ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Morton Stavis ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I do.

Mr. Arens. Do you know his wife, Esther Stavis ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I do.

Mr. Arens. Tell us, please, the nature of your acquaintanceship
with them.

Mr. Koenigsberg, I knew Mr. Stavis slightly at law school. I
knew him in Washington.

Mr. Arens. Do you remember where he worked in Washington ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Where did he work ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Koenigsberg. I believe he worked at the Social Security Board.

Mr. Arens. Where does he live ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Wliere does he live now ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Koenigsberg. He lives in Elizabeth.

Mr. Arens. Elizabeth, N. J. ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. New Jersey.

Mr. Arens. Wlien did you last see him ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I saw him at his home 2 days ago, I believe.

Mr. Arens. You were at his home 2 days ago ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Was his wife there ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. She was.

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your visit to his home ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. A social visit.

Mr. Arens. Exclusively social ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Are you beng completely frank now with the
committee?

Mr. Koenigsberg. My answer was it was completely social.

Mr. Arens. Did you discuss the proposed hearings by the House
Committee on Un-American Activities during the course of this social
visit?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I did.

Mr. Arens. Then it got a little bit off the social tangent, didn't it?

Mr. Koenigsberg. No. People can discuss hearings before the
House Committee on Un-American Activities.

Mr. Arens. Did you discuss with Mr. Stavis the document which
you prepared and read to this committee a little while ago?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I don't think so.

Mr. Arens. Did Mr. Stavis tell you he had been a witness before
the House Committee on Un-American Activities?

Mr. Koenigsberg. He did.

Mr, Arens. Did you know Mr. Stavis as a member of the Com-
munist conspiracy ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. Did you discuss with Stavis the testimony you are giv-
ing here today before this committee ?

3494 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr, KoENiGSBERG. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that he be directed to answer that question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

Mr. Scherer. The question is not what he said, but whether he dis-
cussed it.

(Witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Koenigsberg. I be^ your ]3ardon.

The Chairman. You were directed to answer.

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer on the grounds I have previ-
ously stated.

Mr. Arens. Were you ever the subject of a loyalty investigation?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer on the grounds I have previ-
ously stated.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, he be ordered
and directed to answer that question.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.

(Witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Koenigsberg. I respectfully decline to answer that on the
grounds I have previously stated.

Mr. Kearney. If you were not the subject of a loyalty investiga-
tion, would you so inform the committee ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. It seems to me, sir, you are trying to get me to
waive my privilege with that question.

Mr. Kearney. I am not asking you to waive anything. I am sim-
ply asking a ques: ion.

Mr. Koenigsberg. I understand you are asking me a question, but
it seems to me a question designed to get me to waive my privilege,
and I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Kearney. Do you decline to answer that question ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I do, yes.

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your disassociation from the Federal
Government.

Mr. Koenigsberg. I got an offer of a job elsewhere.

Mr. Arens. Is that the exclusive and sole reason why you left the
Federal Government ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. There are a number of factors connected with it.
I didn't like the job with the Government too much. It was difficult,
and I was out of town a good bit of the time. I did not know whether
there was any future in it. One of the reasons I came up to New
York from the Commission's headquarters was to make contacts with
lawyers in private practice.

Mr. Arens. Was it because the security boys were breathing hot
on your neck in 1948?

Mr. KoENTiGSBERG, I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. That is at least part of the reason why you left the
Government, is it not ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question.

You said there was no future in serving the Government ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I didn't say that, Mr. Kearney.

Mr. Kearney. Well, your job, then.

Mr. Koenigsberg. I said it seemed to me at the time there was no
future on that particular job.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3495

Mr. Kearney. Can you answer this question ? Is there a future in
serving the Communist Party ?

Mr. KoENiGSBERG. I. decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. We have concluded our interrogation, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Are there any questions ?

Mr. Willis. No questions.

Mr. Kearney. No questions.

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Witness, how well did you know Telford Taylor ?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I did not know him too well. He was in New
York most of the time, and I was in Washington most of the time.

Mr. Scherer. How did you happen to know him?

Mr. Koenigsberg. I guess he came down to Washington on a matter
or I went up to New York.

Mr. Scherer. That is, while you two were employees of the Gov-
ernment.

Mr. Koenigsberg. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. What job did he have? I believe you told us, but I
forgot.

Mr. Koenigsberg. He was an attorney on the staff.

Mr. Scherer. What staff?

Mr. Koenigsberg. The staff of the Senate committee investigating
the munitions industry. I am sorry, strike that out. The staff of that
Senate committee investigating railroad financing and reorganization.

Mr. Scherer. Who was the chairman of that subcommittee at that
time?

Mr. Koenigsberg. Senator Burton K. Wheeler. I believe he was
chairman of the subcommittee.

Mr. Scherer. Did you know Telford Taylor in any other way than
as a fellow employee?

Mr. Koenigsberg. That is the only way.

Mr. Scherer. I did not hear you.

Mr. Koenigsberg. That is the only way.

Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.

The Chairman. If there are no further questions, the witness is
excused.

Call your next witness.

Mr. Arens. If you please, Mr. Chairman and members of the com-
mittee, either Miss or Mrs. Marie Prince.

The Chairman. I think we will take a 5-minute break at this point.
(Members present at the time of taking the recess were the chair-
man, and Messrs. Scherer, Kearney, and Willis.)

(Brief recess.)

(Members present following the taking of the recess were the chair-
man, and Messrs. Scherer, Kearney, and Willis.)

The Chairman. The committee will be in order. Call you witness.

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Prince or Miss Prince.

Mr. BouDiN. Miss Prince.

Mr. Arens. Please remain standing and raise your right hand.

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
to this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?

Miss Prince. I do.

3496 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

TESTIMONY OF MARIE PRINCE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
LEONARD B. BOUDIN

Mr. Arens. Please keep your voice up so you may be heard by the
members of the committee.

Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occupation.
Miss Prince. My name is Marie Prince, residence' 2680 Broadway,
New York City. I am a stenographer.
Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?

Miss Prince. I am presently employed in the office of Harry Bender^
an attorney in New York City.

Mr. Arens. Have you testified before the House Committee on
Un-American Activities in executive session in the course of the last
several days?

Miss Prince. I have.

Mr. Arens. Miss Prince, we will not, therefore, request you to detail
the background that we ordinarily request of witnesses, because we
already have it on the executive session record. I will ask you to tell
use whether or not you have ever been employed by the Federal Gov-
ernment.

Miss Prince. I was, by the Veterans' Administration, and I believe
that was in 1937, for a 6-month period, and thereafter by the National
Labor Eelations Board.

Mr. Arens. Did you in the course of your employment in the Na-
tional Labor Relations Board know a person by the name of Harry
Cooper ?

Miss Prince. I decline to answer on the ground of my constitutional
privilege under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel. Miss Prince, that if you told this
committee truthfully whether or not you have known a person by the
name of Harry Cooper, while you were employed by the National
Labor Relations Board, you would be supplying information wliich
coul d be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?

Miss Prince. I honestly so feel.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document en-
titled "Personal History Statement," dated July 29, 1937, on which a
signature appears "Mane Prince," and ask you if you can identify that
signature.

(Document handed to witness.)

(Witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Boudin, I forgot to ask you to identify yourself.

Mr, BouDTN. I have given the reporter my name and address. It
is T^eonard Boudin, 25 Broad Street, New York, N. Y.

Miss Prince. That is my signature.

Mr. Arens. Did you fill out the original of which this document is
a photostatic copy ?

Miss Prince, tdid.

Mr, Arens. I invite your attention specifically. Miss Prince, to
the affidavit which appears immediately prior to your signature on
this document.

I, Marie Prince, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Con-
stitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that
I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and I take this obligation
freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that I will

COAIMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3497

well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to
enter ; so help me God.

Did you take that affidavit ?

Miss Prince. I did.

Mr. Arens. As of the time you took that affidavit, July 29, 1937,
did you have any mental reservations ?

Miss Prixce. I had no mental reservations.

Mr. Aeexs. As of the time you took that affidavit were you a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?

Miss Prince. I decline to answer on the grounds I have stated.

Mr. Arens. Do you feel that if you gave a truthful answer to that
question you would be supplying information which could be used
against you in a criminal proceeding ?

Miss Prince. I so feel.

Mr. Kearney. I would like to ask about that portion of the oath
which stipulates "without any mental reservation, or purpose of
evasion."

If you were a member of the Communist Party, could you in justice
take such an oath ?

(Witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Prince. I decline to answer on the grounds stated.

Mr. Kearney. In other words, when you took that oath, you did
have mental reservations, is that not so ?

Miss Prince. I had no mental reservations.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your employment in the Na-
tional Labor Relations Board, did you know a person by the name
of Martin Kurasch ?

Miss Prince. I decline to answer on the grounds I have stated.

Mi\ Arens. 'May I read a list of persons to you and ask if you knew
them '? Did you know persons bv the names of Martin Kurasch,
David and Selma Rein, Bernard Stern, Rose Eden, Herbert Fuchs,
Helen Himmelf arb ?

]Miss Prince. I decline to answer on the grounds stated.

Mr. Arens. Is your declination applicable to each and every name
I have called ?

Miss Prince. It is.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
truthfully whether or not while you were employed with the Na-
tional Labor Relations Board you knew any of these persons I have
just enumerated, you might be supplying information which might
be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?

Miss Prince. I honestly so feel.

Mr. Arens. When you were in Cleveland, Ohio, were you identified
with an organization, the Progressive Citizens Committee of Cleve-
land?

Miss Prince. I was

Mr. Arens. Tell us about that committee. What was it ?

Miss Prince. It is a political party which appeared on the vari-
ous election laws that was organized at that time.

Mr. Arens. TMien was it that you were identified with the Pro-
gressive Citizens Committee of Cleveland ?

Miss Prince. 1938.

Mr. Arens. Was it controlled by the Communist Party ?

Miss Prince. I decline to answer on the grounds I have stated.

3498 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the American
League for Peace and Democracy ?

Miss Prince. I decline to answer on the grounds I have stated.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that while you were in the National Labor Relations Board,
you were a member of the Communist Party cell consisting of your-
self and those persons whose names I read to you a few moments ago.

Miss Prince. I decline to answer on the grounds I have already
stated.

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?

Miss Prince. I decline to answer on the grounds I have stated.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, that will be all of the questions the staff
wishes to pose to this witness.

The Chairman. Are there any questions? If not, the witness is
excused.

Mr. Arens. If you please, Mr. Chariman, the last witness for this
public hearing will be Mr. Morton Friedman. Will you kindly come
forward.

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please ?

Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Friedman. I do.

TESTIMONY OF MORTON FRIEDMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

LEONARD B. BOUDIN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.

Mr. Friedman. Morton Friedman, 4212 216th Street, Bayside,
N. Y., attorney.

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served on you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?

Mr. Friedman. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?

Mr. Friedman. Mr. Leonard Boudin.

Mr. Arens. Will counsel identify himself.

Mr. BouDiN. The name stated by the witness is correct, at 25 Broad
Street, New York.

Mr. Arens. Give us a statement respecting your background;
where were you born ?

Mr. Friedman. New York City.

Mr. Arens. When ?

Mr. Friedman. November 30, 1910.

Mr. Arens. Where were you educated ?

Mr. Friedman. In New York City. I went to the public schools
and high school. I went to St. Johns College, Brooklyn, N. Y., School
of Law, and I received an LL. B. in 1932, and an LL. M. from St. Johns
University College of Law in 1934.

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, a succinct chronological sketch
of the employment which you have had since you concluded your
formal education.

Mr. Friedman. My employment started long before I completed
my formal education, which was done mostly at night. I worked in

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3499

a bank from 1927 to sometime in 1935, and I am not sure of all the
dates because this was a long time ago. In the fall of 1935 I left that
job, and I worked in the Federal Government from 1935 to about the
fall of 1944. Again the dates are vague in my mind. It has been a
long time ago.

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the bar of any State ?

Mr. Friedman. New York.

Mr. Arens. Were you employed in the Works Projects Administra-
tion in 1935 in Washington, D. C.

Mr. Friedman. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Arens. Did that employment with WPA continue until 1939 ?

Mr. Friedman. Actually I think it was until sometime in 1941 or
1942, although the WPA became the Federal Works Agency. But
there again the dates, if you have them more accurately than I have,
5^ou are probably correct, but that is about my recollection.

Mr. Arens. In 1942 you were with tlie Office of Emergency Man-
agement in Washington, were a^ou not ?

Mr. Friedman. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity did you serve ?

Mr. Friedman. I forget what my title was, but it was in the per-
sonnel department in charge of wage scales for a division of the Office
of Emergency JNIanagement, personnel classification in accordance
with the classification system of the Civil Service Commission.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document,
INIr. Friedman, bearing a signature nt the end of it, "Morton Fried-
man" and ask you if you can identify that signature for us.

(Document handed to witness.)

(Witness conferred with counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. I respectfully decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to afR;-m or deny
the fact that that is your signature to this document.

Mr. Friedman. I respectfully decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Why?

Mr. Friedman. On the grounds that the question violates my rights
under the first amendment to the Constitution

Mr. Arens. The question could not possibly violate your rights.

Mr. Friedman. And under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if j^ou told this com-
mittee truthfully whether or not this is your signature on the docu-
ment I have just displayed to you, you would be supplying informa-
tion which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. Friedman. I honestly feel that the Constitution does not require
any person to be a witness against himself.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question as to whether or not he
honestly apprehends, if he would identify this signature he would be
giving information which could be used against him in a criminal
proceeding.

The Chairman. What does the document purport to be ?

Mr. Arens. A photostatic copy of an application for Federal
employment signed by Morton Friedman.

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question, Mr.
Friedman.

70811—56— pt. 5 9

3500 COMMUNIST INriLTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

(Witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. I would decline to answer that question on the
grounds of the fifth amendment, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Arens. I invite your attention, Mr. Friedman, to question No.
17 on this document,

Do you advocate or have you ever advocated, or are you now or have you
ever been a member of any organization that advocates the overthrow of the
United States by force and violence?

There is an "X" appearing under the column "No." Did you
cause that "X" to be inserted at column "No" in answer to question
No. 17?

Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that you did put that "X" in the column "No" on the question
that I just read to you, from this application for Federal employment ?

Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Mr. James E. Gorham testified before this committee
under oath that while you were in the WPA in 1936, he, Gorham, knew
you, Morton Friedman, to be a member of the Communist Party.
Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?

Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. What caused your disassociation from the Federal
Government ?

(Witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. The truth is you were removed as a security risk ; isn't
that so ?

( Witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. Did you ever institute a proceeding to cause yourself
to be reinstated in a job with the Federal Government ?

(Witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. I have already testified in executive session that I
was a plaintiff in an action entitled "Friedman against McNutt,"
which was later changed to "Friedman against Schwellenbach," and
the case has been reported. It went up to the Supreme Court and
certiorari was denied. It was decided in the circuit court for this
circuit. It was a well known case.

Mr. Arens. When was the decision announced ?

Mr. Friedman. I am not certain of the date. I think roughly in
1946 or 1947.

Mr. Arens, It was in March of 1947, wasn't it?

Mr. Friedman. The circuit court, around that time.

Mr. Arens. When the writ of certiorari was denied in 1947, that
was the last proceeding in this case, was it not?

Mr. Friedman. I would think so.

Mr. Arens. The net result of the proceeding was that tlie courts
confirmed the action of the United States Civil Service Commission in
removing you as a security risk from the Government; is that correct?

Mr. Friedman. I think that that decision speaks for itself.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the American League
for Peace and Democracy ? \

COMMUNIST ESTFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3501

Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been afiiliated with the American Peace
Mobilization ?

Mr. Friedman. Same answer.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the United Federal
Workers of America ?
Mr. Friedman. Same answer.

Mr, Arens. Have you ever been connected with the Marian Ander-
son's Citizens Committee ?
Mr. Friedman. Excuse me ?

Mr. Arens. The Marian Anderson's Citizens Committee.
Mr. Friedman. The same answer.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party while you
were employed by the United States Government in the position of
classification analyst in the Office of Emergency Management?
Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Washington Committee
for Democratic Action ?

Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Washington Industrial
Union Council ?

Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Kearney. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer.

Mr. Kearney. If you were not a member of the Communist Party,
would you so state to this committee ?
Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. While you were with the Federal Government did you
know a person by the name of Edna Richter ?

Mr. Friedman. I decline to answer that question, as I did in execu-
tive session.
Mr. Arens. Sidney Katz ?
Mr. Friedman. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Bernard Greenberg?
Mr. Friedman. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Marcel Kistin ?
Mr. Friedman. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Irving Richter ?
Mr. Friedman. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Rebecca Pf efferman ?
Mr. Friedman. Same answer.

Mr, Arens. Were you ever a member of the National Lawyers
Guild?

(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Friedman. I am now a member.

Mr. Arens. You are now a member of the National Lawyers Guild ?
Mr. Friedman. Yes.

Mr, Arens, How long have you been a member ?
Mr. Friedman, About seven or eight years.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever held an office or post in the National
Lawyers Guild?
Mr, Friedman, No,

Mr, Arens. AVere you a member of the National Lawyers Guild
at any time while you were employed by the Federal Government ?

3502 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. Friedman. No.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will concluda
the staff interrogation of this witness.

The Chairman. Are there any questions ?

Mr. Willis. No questions.

Mr. Kearney. I would like to ask a question.

I did not catch your full name when you gave it to the reporter^

Mr. BouDiN. I did not know jou were looking at me.

Mr. Kearney. I am not looking at you.

Mr. BouDiN. You are looking at the witness ?

Mr. Kearney. That is right, unless I am cross-eyed.

Mr. Friedman. I am Morton Friedman.

Mr. Kearney. And you come from Bay side, Long Island ?

Mr. Friedman. That is correct.

Mr. Kearney. The only observation I would like to make is that at
least we have gotten two answers from him.

The Chairman. That is better than the average.

For the past 2 weeks, this committee has listened to testimony about
infiltration of the Government of the United States by members of the
Commimist conspiracy.

There have appeared here a number of persons identified as having
been active participants in this Communist conspiracy in the Govern-
ment at one time. Even today, they are not moved sufficiently by
loyalty or patriotism to give their country the knowledge which they
possess about the way this Communist conspiracy operated.

We have not held these hearings for the purpose of exposing anyone
as a member of the Communist conspiracy. If people have been stig-
matized as a result of their appearance here, it is because they have
refused, in effect, to renounce their affiliation with the conspiracy to
which they belonged.

These hearings have shown how these people were able to gain access
to important levels of Government; how they were able to remain —
even to flourish — in the Government, although their double role as
Communists was not a secret.

One of the most appalling things to emerge from these hearings is
the picture of a shocking indifference which enabled these people to
pursue their objectives within the very Government of the United
States.

Throughout these hearings, I could not help reflecting again and
again on one fact : At the very time these people were actively promot-
ing the Communist program, other Americans were dying on battle-
fields around the world in order to preserve the freedom and the insti-
tutions which these Communist conspirators were deliberately laboring
to destroy. And while many of those who fought for their country
can no longer raise a voice, these men and women who betrayed them
are able to sit here and defy the Congress and the people of this Nation
by pleading the fifth amendment, and refuse, even now, to join with
loyal Americans to help make this country secure.

Most of this testimony has dealt with a period covering a number
of years ago. But there is no reason to believe that the Communist
attempts to infiltrate the Government have ceased, or that we are now
safe from the menace of Communist conspirators in the public employ.
We know that when one method of operation is uncovered and thereby
made useless, the Communists quickly form another to take its place.

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF GOVERNMENT 3503

We can be sure that infiltration of the Government is still a primary
objective of the international Communist conspiracy.

This committee is continuing its investigations of this area of the
Communist conspiracy, with a view to legislative action regarding peo-
ple who have committed a fraud upon the United States by serving in
its Government while, at the same time, they served a foreign, hostile
power.

These hearings have shown again that the Communist conspiracy
does not relax for a moment in its efforts to destroy this Nation. If we
wish to survive as a free people, we in turn cannot relax in our efforts
to destroy the Communist conspiracy, and disarm those who willingly
abet it.

The committee is adjourned. There will be an executive session in
the committee offices.

(The public hearing was adjourned at 4 : 10 p. m., Thursday, March
1, 1956, subject to the call of the Chair. Members present were Kep-
resentatives Walter (chairman), Kearney, Scherer, and Willis.)

INDEX

Individuals

Page

Abt, Jiohn J 3213, 3474

>i(iams, Foster 3144

Agriu, Gloria 3231

Alger, Richard 3277

Armstrong, H. C 3387, 3389, 3391

Asher, Corinne (Mrs. Lester Asher) 3323,3324,3363

Asher, Lester 3250, 3267, 3272, 3288, 3289, 3302, 3323, 3324, 3363

Baker, Jacob 3214, 3215

Ball, Wayne 3133

Ball, Mrs. Wayne 3133

Baum, Shepherd 3402

BeLfrage, Cedric H 3176, 3177

Bentley, Elizabeth T 3109, 3300, 3335

Berkeley, Martin 3176

Bernstein, Alfred 3130, 3122

Best, Barbara 3116-3118, 3123

Beyer, Glen 3277

Black, Helen 3479

Blair, Bertha 3194, 3197-3204 (testimony) ; 3422, 3424

Bloom, Frank 3287, 3295

Blumberg, Albert 3118, 3120, 3124, 3209

Boudin, Leonard B 3152, 3496, 3498

Brenner, Harry 3424

Brophy, John 3214

Budenz, Louis 3448, 3461, 3462

Burgess, Guy 3187, 3188

Byer, Herman 3158

Chambers, Whittaker 3109, 3448

Chancey, Martin 3132, 3158

Clark, Ellsworth 3293

Clott, Lillian 3150

Cobb, James A 3359

Cofifee, John M _- 3391

Condon, Edward U 3464

Cooper, Harry 3250, 3267, 3272, 3292, 3364, 3434, 3452, 3466, 3496

Cox, Thomas 3133, 3158

Crystal, Daniel 3359

Davenport (Donald H.) 3154,3158,3160

Davis, John F 3489

Dedominicis, Ulysses 3401

Diamond, Bertram 32.50, 3267, 3272, 3292, 3303, 3323, 3364, 3453, 3466

Dombrowski 3278

Donner, Frank 3382, 3452

Donovan, John 3121, 3123, 3124, 3126, 3141, 3220

Douds (Charles T.) 3436

DuBois, W. E. B 3240

Eastman, James B 3112

Edell, William 3441, 3442

Eden, Rose 3497

Ehrlich, Robert R 3428-3438 (testimony)

Eisler, Gerhart 3298, 3299

Elkind, Lawrence 3117,3118,3121,339-5-3399 (testimony)

Emerson, Thomas I 3249, 3263, 3287, 3323

U INDEX

Page

Evans, Gertrude 3149

Fanelli, Joseph A 3356

Fay, Charles 3479

Felclman, George 3154

Fine, Nathan 3391

Fiske, Diana 3237

Fitzgerald, Edward J 3145, 3146

Flaxer, Abram 8138, 3139, 3142, 8146, 3147, 3216, 3288, 3461, 3469, 3470

Ford, Charles E 3385, 3448

Forer, Joseph 3281, 3359, 3377

Fraenkel, Osmond K 3485

Frankfurter, Estelle 3265

Franklin, Elizabeth 3132

Friedman, Joseph 8361

Friedman, Morton 3498-3502 (testimony)

Fuchs, Herbert-- 3109, 3110, 3127-3132, 3140, 3212, 3229, 3250, 3252, 3255, 3266,
3268, 3272, 3274, 3275, 3277, 3292, 3303, 3327-3329, 3332, 3335,
3343, 3344, 3361, 3364, 3382. 3383, 3389, 3390, 3407, 3408, 3417,
3418, 3441, 3446, 3450, 8451, 3466, 8489, 3491, 8497.

Fuchs, Mrs, Herbert 3383

Funn, Dorothy 3172, 3173

Gold, Ben 3288

Goldschmidt, Arthur "Tex" 3210, 3214

Goldsmith, Raymond 3379

Gollobin, Ira 3331, 3395, 3439

Golos, Jacob 3335

Gorham, James Edgar 3111-3136

(testimony) ; 3139, 3140, 3155, 3161, 3170, 3208, 3211, 3212, 3220,
3221, 3224, 3225, 8286, 8896, 3897, 8405, 3406, 3489, 3491, 3500.

Gourrich, Paul P 3158

Graumann, Jacob 3421, 3422, 3424

Green, Abner 3168, 3239, 3296, 3297, 3366-3369, 3467

Greenberg, Bernard 3124, 3143, 3170, 3406, 3501

Greenberg, Robert N 3420-3428 (testimony)

Guinier, Ewart G 3139,3147,3215,3470

Gundlach, Ralph H 3391

Halliday, Malcolm 3287

Harris, Tom 3293

Hayes, Leonard 3197

Haywood. Margaret A 3359

Heald, Allen 3250, 3267, 3272, 3302, 3327, 3368, 3452, 3466

Herrick, Elinore M 3436

Hill, Helen (Mrs. Jerry Hill ; nee Roark ; also known as Helen K. Himmel-

farb) 1 3292, 3322, 3381„8382, 3385-3393 (testimony) ; 3497

Hill, Jerry 3385

Himmelfarb, Helen K. (See Hill, Helen. )

Houston, Charles H 3359

Hudson, Roy : 3472

Hyde, Howard 3158

Jaffe, Bernard 3261, 3337

Jones, John T 3401

Kahn, Albert E 3242

Kaplan, Irving 3144, 3145, 8183, 3184, 3204

Kastioukhin 3475

Katz, Julia (Mrs. Sidney Katz) 3416-3419 (testimony)

Katz, Sidney 3128, 8124, 3142, 3170, 3400-3415 (testimony) ; 3501

Keeser, Dexter 3207

Kelly, Ogden 3131, 3132

Kimball, Harry 3391

King, Carol 3367

Kistin, Marcel S— 3124, 3143, 3170, 3221, 3222-3230 (testimony) ; 3406, 3407, 3501

Koenigsberg, Samuel M 3127, 3129, 3134, 3158, 3485-3495 (testimony)

Kollender, Mortimer 3263

Kramer, Charles 3474

Krug, Jacob H. (Jack) 3250,

3267, 3272, 3289, 3302, 3325, 3326, 3356-76 (testimony ; 3433, 3452, 3466

INDEX lil

Page

Ii:urasch, Lillian (Mrs. Martin Kurasch) 3337-3355 (testimony) ; 3446

Kurasch, Martin 3250, 3261-3281 (testimony) ; 3289, 3301,

3303, 3319, 3320, 3325, 3338, 3362, 3403, 3404, 3451, 3465, 3497

Lamb, Robert 3379

Latimer, Murray 3128

La Vallee, Corina (Mrs. Lawrence Raymond La Vallee) 3349

La Vallee, Lawrence Raymond 3276, 3349, 3439-3448 (testimony)

Lehrman, Louis 3115-3117, 3398

Levine, Morris 3181-3196 (testimony) ; 3200, 3423, 3424

Lewis, A. D 3214

Lewis, John L 3214

Lockhart, Marvel 3121, 3183

Love, Bessie . 3388

Lowenthal, Max 3489

Lublin, Gerson D 3257, 3258

Madden, J. Warren 3265

Madden, Murdaugh Stuart 3111

Magruder, Calvert . , 3480

Markward, Mary Stalcup 3109, 3236

Maslow, Will 3246, 3402, 3410

Matchett, Gerald J 3276, 3348, 3349, 3442, 3443, 3447

Matchett, Margaret Ellen (Mrs. Gerald J. Matchett; nee Stump) 3348,

3349, 3443, 3447

McCalmont, Dave 3314

McLean, Donald 3187, 3188

Meyers, George 3401

Myers, Irving 3181

Miller, Helen 3160, 3423, 3424

Morrow, Kenneth 3188

:Moyer, Ernest 3217

Naigles, Myer Harry (Mike) 3132, 3133, 3152-3164 (testimony)

Nelson, Eleanor 3118, 3124, 3126, 3160, 3209, 3399, 3409, 3417

Nowak, Stanley K 3176

O'Brien, Clifford D 3309, 3310

Olim, Ellis George 3127, 3129, 3490

<Osthagen, C 3144

'Paulson, Milton 3242

Pecora, Ferdinand 3317

Peek, Sally 3150

Perkins, Frances 3482, 3483

Perlo, Victor (alias Martin Stribling) 3200,

3213, 3322, 3323, 3331-3336 (testimony)
Perry, Ruth Weyand. (See Weyand, Ruth. )

Peters, J. (alias Alexander Stevens) 3431-3433

Peyton, Boyd 3401

Pfefferman, Rebecca 3124, 3170, 3501

Plumb, Arlyne (Mrs. Don Plumb) 3277, 3351, 3447

Plumb, Don 3276, 3277, 3351, 3447

Poller, Shad 3361

Porter, John W 3250, 3267, 3272,

3275, 3276, 3290, 3320, 3321, 3325, 3346-3348, 3363, 3446, 3452, 3466

Porter, Margaret Bennett (Mrs. John W. Porter) 3250, 3267, 3275,

3290, 3302, 3326, 3327, 3348, 3363, 3446

Potamkin, Lawrence 3273

Pressman, Lee 3448, 3463

Prince, Marie 3496-3498 (testimony)

Rabinowitz, Victor 3136, .3428

Ragland, Rawlings 3263, .3361

Rand, Harry I 3165, 3400, 3416

Rastvorov, Yuri 3193

Rauh, Joseph L. Jr 3245

Rein, David 3250, 3267, 3272,

3281-3300 (testimony) ; 3302, 3319-3321, 3325, 3363, 3391, 3433,
3452, 3466, 3497.

Rein, Louis 3283, 3284

Rein, Melvin 3283, 3284

Rein, Selma (Mrs. David Rein) 3283, 3284, 3319, 3377-3385 (testimony) ; 3497

iV INDEX

Page

Reno, Philip 3275, 3346, 3409, 3417, 3446

Reuther, Walter 3175

Rhine, Henry 3118, 3121, 3140,

3141, 3205-3221 (testimony) ; 3399, 3409, 3417

Rhine, Jessica Buck (Mrs. Henry Rhine) 3121, 3141, 3210,

3211, 3220, 3409, 3417

Richter, Albert 3123

Richter, Edna 3123-3126, 3142, 3169, 3170, 3406, 3501

Richter, Irving 3123, 3124, 3143, 3165-3180 (testimony) ; 3407, 3501

Riemer, Mortimer (also known as Robert Mortimer) 3250,

3267, 3272, 3290, 3293, 3326, 3452, 3466

Robb, Dean 3177

Robison, Gerson 3256

Robison, Gerson B 3255, 3256

Robison, Helen F. (Mrs. Joseph B. Robison) 3255

Robison, Jesse 3257

Robison, Joseph B 3245-3261 (testimony) ;

3263, 3267, 3288, 3289, 3302, 3303, 3318-3320, 3325, 3362, 3402, 3410,

3411, 3433, 3452, 3465.

Rosenberg, Allan R 3250, 3252, 3267, 3272, 3288, 3289, 3300-

3306 (testimony) ; 3318, 3320, 3325, 3329, 3362, 3451, 3454, 3455, 3462

Rosenberg, Erna (Mrs. Allan R. Rosenberg) 3303

Rosenfield, Harry N 3258

Rubenberg, Mrs. Dan 3238

Rutstein, Leo 3404

Sandler, Woodrow 3250, 3267, 3272, 3289, 3302, 3363, 3433, 3452, 3466

Scheunemann, Cecelia (Mi-s. Edward Scheunemann) 3446

Scheunemann, Edward 3250,

3267, 3272, 3276, 3303, 3326, 3348, 3364, 3446, 3452, 3466

Selly, Joseph 3288

Shore, Joyzell 3236

Silverman, George 3127, 3204, 3213, 3424, 3425

Silvermaster, Nathan Gregory , 3227,

3228, 3298, 3299, 3380, 3384, 3425, 3474, 3475

Smith, Donald Wakefield 3265

Smith, Edwin S 3265, 3456-3484 (testimony)

Smith, Louise Pettibone 3368

Soloff, Sylvia. {Se« Steinberg, Sylvia Soloft.)

Somers (A. Norman) 3287

Spencer, Dwight 3276, 3349, 3350, 3447

Spencer, Mary (Mrs. Dwight Spencer) 3349, 3350, 3447

Spero, Abe 3420

Stavis, Esther (Mrs. Morton Stavis) 3418, 3493

Stavis, Morton 3418, 3493

Stein, Arthur 3121, 3124, 3126, 3136-3152 (testimony) ; 3333, 3409, 3417

Steinberg, Sylvia Soloff 3127, 3129, 3132, 3231-3243 (testimony)

Stern, Beatrice 3265, 3317

Stern, Bernard 3410, 3417, 3497

Stern, Janet (Mrs. Bernard Stern) 3410, 3417"

Stevens, Ann (Mrs. Alexander Stevens) 3432.

Stribling, Martin. {See Perlo, Victor.)

Sugar, Maurice 3177

Taylor, Telford 3489, 3495 •

Thatcher, Herbert S 3359

UUmann, William Ludwig 3299

Van Arkel, Gerhard P 3327, 3456, 3458, 3479, 3480

Van Horn, Edith 3176

Vibber, Polly 3133

Walsh, David I 3154

Watts Robert 3302 3479

Weyand, Ruth (Mrs. Ruth We'yand Perry )^ '____ 3255, 3267, 3272, 3291,' 3302,

3309-3331 (testimony) ; 3359, 3360, 3382, 3389, 3434, 3451-3453,

3466
White, Harry Dexter 3213, 3214

INDEX >

Page

Wilkerson, Doxey 3158, 3313,

Witt, Nathan 3247, 3249, 3251, 3253, 3255, 3263,

3265, 3287, 3305, 3342, 3448-3456 (testimony) ; 3462, 3463, 3474

Wohlforth, Robert 3341

Wolf, Benedict 3304

Wright, James T 3205

Young, Benjamin Loring 3222, 3300

ZIotowski, Ignace , 3471

Organizations

Am-Russ Literary and Music Agency 3457

American Association for Jewish Education 3404

American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 3368

American Financial and Development Corporation for Israel- 3261, 3403, 3404

American Jewish Congres 3246, 3247, 3249, 3260, 3401, 3402, 3410, 3411

American Soviet Science Society 3465

Chesapeake Construction Corp 3148

Chicago Civil Liberties Committee 3312, 3314

China Photo Service 3483

Communist Party, U. S. A., District of Columbia :

Cell within the Interstate Commerce Commission 3127, 3128

Cell within the Library of Congress 3131

Cell within the National Recovery Administration 3121-3123

Cell within the Securities and Exchange Commission 3132, 3133

Cell within the Wheeler committee ( Subcommittee To Investigate Rail-
roads, Holding Companies, and Related Matters) 3129-3131, 3237

Cell within the Works Progress Administration 3123, 312f»

Dickinson College 3439-3441, 3443-3446

East Flatbush Jewish Community Center 3405

East Photo ■ 3481

Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America, United, District 1__ 3206,

3216-3218

Federal Workers of America, United, CIO 3137, 3142, 3206, 3215, 3236

Furniture Workers of America, United, CIO 3207, 3218

Government Employees, American Federation of 314(^3142

Interstate Commerce Commission local 3128, 3129

Local 91 (NRA) 3209, 3210

Indiana University 3440, 3445

Inter-Lodge Committee on Government Personnel Transfer 3122

Lawyers Union, National Labor Relations Board 3324, 3325, 3327-3330

Maryland and District of Columbia Industrial Union Council 3401, 3410

Mississippi Southern College 3440, 3445

National Council of American-Soviet Friendship 3460, 3464, 3469, 3471

National Lawyers Guild 3258, 3259, 3270, 3312, 3317, 3326, 3502

National Executive Board 3296, 3312

District of Columbia Chapter 3296, 3303, 3312, 3320, 3326

Oregon State College - 3445

Park Avenue Synagogue 3400, 3405

Pennsylvania Pump and Compressor Co 3217

Philadelphia School of Social Science and Art 3216

Progressive Citizens Committee of Cleveland 3497

Progressive Party :

District of Columbia 3149

Pennsylvania 3217

Public Workers of America, United 3137-

3140, 3142, 3146-3148, 3215, 3461, 3469, 3470, 3473.

Putney School (Vermont) 3461

Rogers International Co 3460

Russell Sage Foundation 3459

Society for Cultural Relations with Foreign Countries (VOKS.) 3464, 3471

Sbv-Photo 3481

Syracuse University 3445

Teachers Union (New York City) 3461, 3473

Toledo University 3445

Vl INDEX

Tracy's Co 3428

United States Government :

Agriculture, Department of 3181, 3430, 3436, 3491

Agricultural Adjustment Administration 3119

Farm Security Administration 3223, 3225, 3227, 3379

Resettlement Administration 3357, 3429

Rural Electrification Administration 3262, 3303, 3357

Sugar Rationing Administration 3430, 3436

Army, Department of the 3182, 3187-3189, 3193

Board of Economic Warfare 3301

Census Bureau. ( See Commerce Department. )

Civil Aeronautics Board. ( See Commerce Department. )

Civilian Production Administration 3202

Commerce, Department of :

Census Bureau 3181, 3202, 3421

Civil Aeronautics Board 3111, 3114

Council of National Defense, Advisory Commission 3184

Employees' Compensation Commission, United States 3232

Employment Service, United States 3421

Federal Coordinator of Transportation (New York City) 3396

Federal Emergency Relief Administration 3112, 3166, 3170

federal Works Agency 3137, 3143-3145

Foreign Economic Administration 3301

House of Representatives, United States, Tolan committee (Select
Committee To Investigate the Interstate Migration of Destitute

Citizens) 3379

Interior, Department of the, Puerto Rico Reconstruction Adminis-
tration 3282, 3285, 3357

Interstate Commerce Commission 3127-3129, 3232

Justice, Department of, Board of Immigration Appeals 3357, 3367

JLabor, Department of 3118-3120, 3147, 3167, 3182, 3201, 3420

Bureau of Labor Statistics 3154, 3181, 3420

Women's Bureau 3201

Lend Lease Administration, OflBce of 3440

Library of Congress 3131

National Bureau of Economic Research 3139

National Labor Relations Board 3247,

3251-3255, 3259, 3262-3264, 3268-3271, 3283, 3288, 3301, 3316, 3341,
3357, 3362, 3378, 3389, 3429, 3430, 3459, 3496.

Los Angeles 3340

National Recovery Administration 3118-3123,

3137, 3139, 3141, 3206, 3207, 3209, 3211, 3212, 3356

National Wage Stabilization Board 3262

National War Labor Board 3262, 3346

Denver Office 3440

Navy, Department of the, Brooklyn Navy Yard 3396

Office of Emergency Management 3499

Office of Price Administration 3114, 3134, 3283, 3341, 3429, 3430, 3436

Office of the Housing Expediter 3262

Public Works Administration 3396

Railroad Retirement Board 3112, 3113, 3118, 3120, 3121, 3127, 3201, 3301

Reconstruction Finance Corporation 3223

Securities and Exchange Commission 3114, 3132-3134, 3154, 3378, 3491

Senate, United States :

Committee on Education and Labor 3301, 3340, 3341, 3429

Interstate and Foreign Commerce Committee 3206, 3211

La Follette Civil Liberites Committee ( Subcommittee of the Com-
mittee on Education and Labor) 3301,3341,3429

Special Committee on Investigation of the Munitions Industry- 3485, 3486
Wheeler committee (Subcommittee To Investigate Railroads,
Holding Companies, and Related Matters of the Committee on

Interstate and Foreign Commerce) 3112,

3114, 3127-3132, 3207, 3208, 3210-3212, 3488, 3489
Social Security Board 3379

INDEX Vil

Dnited States Government — Continued Page

Treasury, Department of the, Internal Revenue, Bureau of 3233

Veterans' Administration 3496

War Assets Administration 3223

War Department 3154

War Manpower Commission 3379

War Production Board 3137, 3i82, 3203

War Shipping Administration 3154

Works Progress Administration 3113 3123 3125 3128

3137, 3142, 3166, 3170, 3206, 3222, 3378, 3396, 3400, 3416, 3417, 3499

University of Wichita 3445

VOKS. (See Society for Cultural Relations with Foreign Countries.)

Washington Bookshop 3129 3133

Washington Committee for Consumer Protection ' 3384

BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY

3 9999 05706 3206

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