HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY
GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— PART 9
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMEfilCAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
APRIL 19, 1956
Printed for tl^ use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INDEX IN PART 10 OF THIS SERIES)
HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY,
DEPOSITED BY THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENTj
AUG 15 1956
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
77436 WASHINGTON : 1956
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
FRANCIS B. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois
CLYDE DOYLE, California BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York
JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee DONALD L. JACKSON, California
EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio
Richard Arens, Director
It
CONTENTS
PART 7
April 16, 1056 :
Testimony of — Page
William Don Waddilove 3660
Edith Rapport (Mrs. George Rapport) 3676
Afternoon session :
Rubin Decker 3695
Joseph Pass 3711
Samuel Berland 3718
Sylvia Lardner Barnell (Mrs. Carter Darnell) 3726
Carter Darnell 3728
Milton Kestenbaum '. 3733
Sidney Greene 3737
Paul Powell 3749
PART 8
April 17, 1956 :
Testimony of Nikolai Khokhlov 3756
PART 9
April 19, 1956 :
Testimony of —
Albert Glasser 3821
Katherine Glasser (Mrs. Albert Glasser) 3837
Herbert Offner 3841
Sam Fordis 3850
Henry Roth 3854
Afternoon session, testimony of :
Cryil Towbin 3862
Helen Teverniti 3869
Lewis Elias 3870
Leonard H. Dahlsten 3881
Henry Roth (re.sumed) 3885
Cyril Towbin (resumed) 3887
Victor Gottlieb 3887
Manuel L. Compinsky 3892
Eudir-e Gottlieb (Mrs. Victor Gottlieb) 3896
Milton Feher 3897
PART 10
April 20, 1956 :
Testimony of — -
Thomas Walfrid Nelson 3901
Arthur Globe 3915
Don Christlieb 3918
Afternoon session, testimony of —
Ramez Idriss 3934
Joseph DiFiore 3937
Edgar Lustgarten 3939
III
IV CONTENT?
April 20, 1956— Continued
Afternoon session, testimony of — Continued ftet
Morris Boltuch 3942
Philip Goldberg 3948
Joseph Eger 3951
Kalnian Bloeh 3955
Jack (L) Pepper 3964
Jean C. Musick 3967
Manuel Newman 3974
Roy Frankson 3977
Herbert Lessner 3979
George Kast 3984
April 21, 1956 :
Testimony of:
John Walter Porter 3990
Jessica Rhine Wildman 4006
Afternoon session, testimony of —
Louis R. Sherman 4021
William Ward Kimple 4026
Louis R. Sherman (resumed) 4033
Thomas A. Chapman 4042
Sidney London 4047
Alfred Hale Caplan 4053
John T. McTernan 4061
Index I
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress (1946), chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
* 4: * * * * N^
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American Activities.
(2) Tlie Committee on Un-American Activities, as a wliole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion witliin the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
V
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 84TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955
* :» « » * * *
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress,
the following standing committees :
*******
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
*******
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American Activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the Hovise (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session ) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of
such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to
take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the
signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
VI
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA— PART 9
THURSDAY, APBIL 19, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
public hearing
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 9: 40 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 518, Federal Building, Los
Angeles, Calif., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder (chairman of the subcom-
mittee) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives ISIorgan M. Moulder,
of Missouri (presiding) , Clyde Dojde, of California, Donald L. Jack-
son, of California, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; William
A. Wheeler and Courtney E. Owens, investigators.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Will you please call the next witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Albert Glasser, will you come forward, please?
Mr. Moulder. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
jou God?
Mr. Glasser. I do.
Mr. Moulder. You may be seated.
TESTIMONY OF ALBERT GLASSER
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Glasser. Albert Glasser.
Mr. TA\Ti:NNER. ]\Ir. Glasser, it is the practice of the committee to
advise all witnesses that they have a right to have counsel accompany
them to the witness chair, and the right to consult counsel at any time
they may desire during the course of their testimony.
Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Glasser?
Mr. Glasser. I was born in Chicago, 111., January 25, 1916.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?
Mr. Glasser. 8855 St. Ives, I-v-e-s, Drive, Los Angeles 46.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in California ?
Mr. Glasser. California since 1922. I was 6 years old.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has been.
3821
3822 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Glasser. Graduate of high school — Roosevelt High School in
Los Angeles. I had a scholarship at the University of Southern Cali-
fornia, composition and orchestration.
In 1934 I won the Alchin, xi-1-c-h-i-n, Charity Foundation Award.
After leaving the university — it was during the depression years —
1 began to work gi-adually on movie circuits, and trying to establish
a reputation as a composer and conductor.
Mr. Tavenxer. I wanted to find out what your profession or occu-
pation is. Do I understand it is both that of a composer and an instru-
mentalist ?
Mr. Glasser. Yes, sir; composer and conductor; motion pictures,
radio shows, television shows; all types of commercial work; and,
when I have time, my concert work.
Mr. Tavenner. During the course of its investigation the committee
learned that, for a period of time, you had an opportunity to learn
something of the activities of the Communist Party within a group
of musicians in this area.
Mr. Glasser. That is right.
Mr. Tavenjster. Were you ever a member of a Communist Party
group composed of musicians ?
Mr. Glasser. Unfortunately, yes.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask, composed exclusively of musicians ?
Mr. Glasser. Of Communist members.
Mr. Moulder. Of musicians alone ?
Mr. Glasser. Yes, sir ; exclusively of musicians.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell the committee, please, over w^hat period of
time you were a member of such an organization.
Mr. Glasser. Well, sir, this was in 1943, and it was over a period
of perhaps from 6 to 7 months at most.
I was recruited somewhere about the middle of the year, around
the summertime of 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee the circumstances under
which you became a member ?
Mr. Glasser. I would be glad to.
Through various family friends, we became acquainted with a gen-
tleman named Max Silver and his wife, a Dr. Louise Light.
Mr. Tavenner. Max Silver was a functionary of the Communist
Party in Los Angeles at that time ?
Mr. Glasser. That is right. He was one of the officers. Which par-
ticular job he had I am not aware of. Actually it was organizer or
chairman or something. I didn't pay much attention to it.
We were soon aware that he was a high official in the high party.
Mr. Doyle. The summer of 1943 ?
Mr. Glasser. The summer of 1943.
We actually had met him, I would say, in the spring of 1943.
After going to his house many times and being invited to his house
and being wined and dined by them, we realized years later as to why
we were wined and dined. It was sort of a membership drive at that
time.
But, after seeing him there often and spending a lot of time with
them — because, for one thing there. Dr. Silver is an extremely intelli-
gent man, and in his conversation, even tliough most of the time it
would lead toward politics which I wasn't too much concerned with
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3823
at the time, it was educational, if anything, to hear him describe things
and discuss political affairs along liberal elements.
My background naturally had been slightly liberal all my life. My
parents had been. My father had been a bodyguard at one time for
Eugene V. Debs back before the First World War.
And, as the years went by, this form of semiliberalism was more or
less instilled in the conversation at home. So my environment became
a liberal form of education.
When I heard Mr. Silver discuss things in a more radical light and
stronger tone, for basic curiosity reasons alone — I am a very curious
guy ; I like to learn. And from Mr, Silver we began to learn various
things which at times might have puzzled me and confused me as to
how things operated under communism, under different forms of
liberal elements.
As the time moved along through the spring he began pressuring
us — I shouldn't use that word — asking us, we are intelligent young
kids ; I am a good musician ; I am going far ; I should come into the
party and help organize a certain type of thing which they were
eventually going to steer toward the Musicians Congress Committee.
Mr. Tavenner. You were told that that was to be one of the objec-
tives of this Communist Party group ?
Mr. Glasser. I can't actually recall if Mr. Silver discussed this
particular element at the time. But in overall discussions they were
pointing out that one of the lacks in America was the fact that we
don't have a Minister of Culture, a general governmental agency which
could help and control and sponsor music and all the allied arts like
the various European countries have — France, England, Finland.
Many of the European countries have a definite Minister of Culture,
so-called, which helps guide all cultural things.
That we here in America don't have such a thing, and we should
have something like that, which is true. This much I still believe
today. We should have something like that.
In fact, there was an item in the paper recently, if I can find it at
the moment, where such a proposition is being sponsored in Congress
today. It came out a week or two ago where the United States does
need some form of help from the Government toward the arts.
Well, on principles like this, which are basically sound and correct,
which is something we Americans should have, it sounded very correct
at the time especially. And the general approach at the time was,
we have to build some form of educational program to present these
things to the American public.
How are you going to present it to the American public?
You have your ]Musicians' Congress and invite all the greatest
musicians in America or the world to come here at a big symposium,
and show the facets of music, the culture of music, how it can help
the American public in various ways and help the war effort, or
something else at the time. Everything was to help build the war
effort, naturally,
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Glasser, do you distinguish between the aid and
assistance of the United States Government in such a program, and
direction of the United States Government in such a program ?
77436— 56— pt. 9-
3824 coMMuisriST actr^ties est the los angeles, calif., aeea
I don't know whether you were present in the hearing room day
before yesterday or not.
Mr. Glasser. No.
Mr. Jackson. We heard about a Government agency which cer-
tainly is not the sort of agency that any of us would want. It was
the agency which directs the cultural art or the agencies which direct
cultural art in the Soviet Union.
Mr. Glasser. They shouldn't direct.
Mr. Jackson. I think the distinction should be made very clear that,
while some such program as the one you suggest might be very
meritorious and undoubtedly would be, we should be very careful.
Mr. Glasser. You are so right, sir. They should not direct; they
should help in other ways.
Mr. Doyle. May I join the comment of Mr. Jackson at that point.
The testimony day before yesterday was not only that Russia had an
agency but there was a state control
Mr. Glasser. They sure do.
Mr. Doyle. That controlled the writing and publication of the
music. And no music other than jazz could even be published with-
out the consent of the Russian or the Soviet Government, and that the
whole purpose of the emphasis on music and art in the Soviet Union
was for the purpose of interpreting the Soviet philosophy to the
Russian people.
Mr. Glasser. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. On the contrary, of course, that destroys, in my book,
individual initiative and independent respect for the individual, and
places it as a servant of the state.
Mr. Glasser. Very much so.
Mr. Doyle. Which is contrary to the American philosophy.
Mr. Glasser. When the Soviet Government began to slap the wrist
of Shostakovich and Prokofiev and other great, sincerely great com-
posers in the Soviet Union, and chastised them for writing an un-
Soviet type of music, music against the culture of the Soviet form of
government, this is going a little bit too far.
And there have been dozens of instances and cases where Russians
themselves have told the w^orld they have chastised these various indi-
viduals for writing music not acceptable to the people.
What means "acceptable to the people" ? Whose opinion are they
taking ?
Mr. ScHERER. Whenever you get government into that field don't
you run the risk, however, of eventual control and domination ?
Mr. Glasser. That is entirely possible.
Mr. SciiERER. I am not so sure that the Government of the United
States has anything to do Avith interesting itself, even by way of grants-
in-aid, in the promulgation of the cultural society. We can do that
with our free institutions, and have done it for niany years. I don't
think government has any part in it. Those are my own feelings, be-
cause it eventually leads to control and domination by government
whether you like it or not as soon as you start putting money into those
programs.
Mr. Glasser. Don't you think it is possible ? For example, the De-
partment of Labor has helped without interfering witli labor. In the
same sense, we could have a Department of Culture if it is correctly set
up.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3825
Mr. ScHERER. We have too many departments and agencies now.
Mr. Glasser. This may be.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Glasser, as indicated by several mem*bers of the
committee, we heard extensive testimony here 2 days ago, and in quite
some detail, regarding the political uses that Vv'ere made in the Soviet
Union of the various arts, which included music.
Now after you got into this organized group of the Communist
Party composed of musicians and the Musicians Congress — was that
the name of it ?
Mr, Glasser. Musicians Congress Committee.
Mr. Tavenner, Committee was established, did you learn of any-
thing indicating an effort to use that organization in a political way
or to influence its decisions in a political way ?
Mr. Glasser. Very much so. If I may, I would like to elaborate
on that and explain it.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like for you to.
Mr. Glasser. As the work began to organize for the Congress Com-
mittee, which was to be held at the University of Southern California
in Los Angeles — UCLA — we had a few meetings, gatherings of mem-
bers and nonmembers of the party, to discuss as to how the congress
should take place and the form it should follow, who should be in-
vited, who shouldn't be invited, what they should expect and what
they should say.
Now as the discussion would come along, we would drop out certain
names. They would say, "How about so-and-so, a great composer."
And they could kick it around. And the first big fight that I had with
the group was about the name of Rachmaninoff, Sergei Rachmaninoff,
who had just passed away in the summer of 1943 or late fall, who was
one of the towering lights in music, one of the great geniuses of our
time, unquestionably.
I said we should have a man like him represented, or at least some
of his works should be played as representative of today's great music
because we do have great geniuses.
We talked about Beethoven, Bach, Brahms. But we have greats in
our own time who in a period of history will take shape along with
the greatest composers of all time.
The minute I mentioned the name Rachmaninoff there was a big
outburst and a shout: "That dirty White Russian?"
And this began a long series of discussions and doubletalk.
I said, "So what? Wliite Russian. Obviously, we all know this.
But the man is still a great genius, a great composer, one of the big
men of our time. What the heck has politics got to do with music?
Is this going to be a congress of politics or music? Music comes first
as far as I am concerned."
And as time subsequently proved, in most of these cases, members of
Communist beliefs, intense beliefs — they carried the political
beliefs to a greater extent than the musical beliefs. They loved poli-
tics more than music. And, once this picture began to become clear
to me, then I knew there was something wrong, and I had to get out
and get out fast.
There were other names of individuals from New York, the New
York area — certain composers who were very small, very petty, very —
I shouldn't say stupid because they might be intelligent people, but
the music they write is very inferior and very low grade.
3826 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
The orchestrations on certain occasions, I know personally, as I
have studied some of the scores, a third-grade orchestra student would
be ashamed to orchestrate what these big men were doing. It was
ridiculous. These men were being pushed to the front. This one
should lead this symposium ; this one should definitely be in charge of
American folk music; this man was, in my opinion, a very inferior
composer, a very small-time situation.
And it is very unfortunate tliat his work should be pushed so to the
fore, that the general American public should hear his things rather
than other greater men of more significance and importance.
Slowly, as the congress committee began to take shape and more
and more of these names were dropped, and more of the greater men
who might be Wliite Russians or unsympathetic to liberal causes were
dropped out and eliminated, the whole thing began to take a definite
political shape. We were saying goodby, good luck, and thank you,
and I backed out in a hurry.
Mr. Tavennek, You backed out of the congress. Did you also back
out of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Glasser. The party, simultaneously. It was a joint venture.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold a position of any kind in the
Musicians Congress Committee?
Mr. Glasser. Yes. I had been appointed secretary and treasurer
of the original congress committee. And I was to help raise funds
and collect the money and hang on to the money and protect it. Ap-
parently they felt I was the only honest fellow in the bunch. I don't
laiow why.
I had to get stationery printed, and w^e just had enough money for
1 ream of paper which at that time cost around $7. We had $10 in
the treasury. So we had 1 ream of stationery printed up, which was
this, which fortunately we have maintained the balance of the ream.
And on the ream of stationery my name is listed as secretary-treasurer
of the committee.
Mr. Jackson. May I see that?
Mr, Glasser. Certainly.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to oifer that letterhead in evidence, and
ask that it be marked "Albert Glasser Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Moulder. It is so ordered.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I don't know what the testimony is
going to develop, but I would add to the insertion the stipulation that
the mere appearance of a name on the letterhead does not connote
membership in the Communist Party or sympathy with the Commu-
nist Party.
Mr. Glasser. Definitely not. That is very true.
Mr. Moulder. With that understanding, the exhibit will be ad-
mitted into evidence.
Mr. Tavenner. Now let us go back a little further.
You have told us that, as a result of your associations and discus-
sion of matters in which you were interested, you became a member
of the Communist Party. Can you tell the committee anything more
in detail as to how you actually became a member? That is, who
brought you in and whether you signed any Communist Party cards.
Mr. Glasser. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3827
Glasses Exhibit No. 1
usiciANS Congress Committee
1655 CHEROKEE STREET, ROOM 301
HOLLYWOOD 28, CALIFORNIA
HEMPSTEAD 3501
Geaera/ Boarti
AARON COPLAND
ADOLPK DEUTSCH
DARIUS MILHAUO
SOL KAPLAN
ERNEST TOCH
LENA HORNE
HANS EISLER
ALEXANDER TANSMAN
WiaiAM GRANT STILL
DAVID RAKSIN
MIKLOS R0S2A
INGOLF DAHL
MISCHA ALT^MN
CPL GAIL KUBIK
CARROLL H0LL1STER
EUDICE SHAPIRO
HUGO FRIEDHOffER
JOHNNY GREEN
PVT. LOU COOPER
JULIAN BRODETSKV
LT. LEON 5 BECKER
CALVIN JACKSON
MANUAL COMPINSKY
<ARAH COMPINSKY
EARL ROBINSON
P.FC. VICTOR GOTTLIEB
PHIL MOORE
CLIFFORD VAUGHN
GERALD STRANG
ARTHUR LANGE
LAWRENCE MORTON
fifCutic. 5ccrrrwv
SERGE HOVEY
MUSICIANS CONGRESS COMMITTEE
The First of a Series of Outstanding Musical Events
Classical and Swing • • Buffet Dinner
WALTER ABEL, -Wai«r of Ccrcmomt,
1010 Summit Drive
Sat, Dec. II, 1943
^' ^^ $2.00
ALBERT GLASSER
/•uilic R-Ulion,
BOB WACHSMAN
LOCAL 47. A.F. Of M
LOCAL 767. AF Of M
FATS WALLER
Mr. Taventster. Or whetlier you paid dues and all matters of such
character.
Mr. Glasses. In the course of time we were spending many evenings
with free dinners — which we needed badly because we were broke — at
the home of Mr. Max Silver. It came to the point where he finally
said, "Look. You kids have got to get in. This is silly. You are
bright, you are intelligent. You have got to join this thing and help
establish this cause, and help work for the war."
Everything was the war — second front, ISIusicians Congress, help
culture; all the various double-talk phrases which were coming
through.
They had been so kind to us and so sweet we just felt so grateful.
And when they kept saying "You have got to sign," they filially
shoved a membership card in my wife's hand and myself, and said.
"Now, sign, and no more backing out. Come on. Do it right now."
3828 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
We took the cards and stood up against the wall, and, with a pen,
started to sign. I told my wife, "Wait a moment. One second. Don't
sign with your actual handwriting. I still don't trust this thing.
There's something fisliy, and I know in my heart there's something
wrong. Put the pen in your left hand and write it backward so maybe,
in the event there may be trouble, they could not trace it to me, because
1 don't believe in this. We aren't doing a wrong thing, but we will
go along with it for the ride. There is nothing to lose. We aren't
doing anything wrong. We aren't doing any criminal acts. We don't
do any espionage. We wouldn't hold up a bank or kill anyone. We
are doing no wrong as wrong goes. We are simply signing* a piece of
paper which means nothing."
We signed the membership cards backward with our left hands, and
Mr. Silver and Louise — Dr. Light — raised holy heck with us. They
screamed. But we stuck to our guns. We said, "No, if you want it,
take it this way. That is good enough for you." And they finally
accepted.
Now, soon afterward we were contacted to go to a meeting, a mem-
bership drive.
I don't know whether it was a membership drive, but sort of a wel-
coming-to-the-Communist-Party type of thing. And after this meet-
ing we had 3 or 4, 4 or 5 actual meetings of the Communist Party,
2 of which were in our own home.
The reason we had to have it in our own home was very simple.
My little girl had just been born, January 23, 1943, and was still a
little infant, 6, 7, 8 months old, and my wife was slightly nervous
and high strung and refused pointblank to have babysitters. This was
out of the question. Have a stranger watch our baby ? Nonsense.
Mr. TA\^ENNER. Let me interrupt you a moment.
It is not my purpose to ask you anything regarding your wife.
Mr. Glasser. I'm sorry.
Mr. Tavenner. It is not our practice to do so. However, if the wit-
ness desires to mention his wife in order that it may be known what his
wife's position is, it is all right for you to do so.
Mr. Glasser. May I request the presence of my wife to come on the
stand along with me and appear jointly? Is this possible, if you
desire to ?
Mr. Tavenner. We can call her as soon as you complete your testi-
mony. I interrupted you. You had come to the point where you
signed your membership card and were asked to come to a meeting.
Mr. Glasser. Yes.
We went up to a home on Sunset Plaza Drive. Whose home I
wasn't aware of at the time, and never have been. But when we
came to this big, very fine home, there were about 40 or 50 people
sitting around in the living room. And after a few minutes a gentle-
man came to the front and said, "Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to
the Communist Party."
And we said, "Welcome. Thank you, thanl^ you."
Very friendly, very jovial, a lot of fun, and all total strangers to me.
We didn't know anyone there at the time.
A gentleman began to speak, Mr. John Howard Lawson, whose
name has come up, we know, at various times. He was a very bright
man, a very intelligent man. But, as far as I am concerned, his
political thinking was way off the beam, completely confused.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3829
He began to speak for an hour or two — I forget how long — just
going along, explaining the purposes and ideals and motives of the
Communist Party in America, how they hoped to bring about certain
changes in the Government through normal legal processes, through
the ballot, through the vote of the American people, by the wishes of
the American people and a majority, following standard American
basic procedure straight down the line. And he talked and talked
and talked. And at times he would go off on tangents, which at times
sounded like double talk.
And toward the end he kept building up toward the fact that we
liave to do this through normal legal processes, due process of law.
He pounded his fist and would get very dynamic because he is a very
dynamic man, and kept stressing the fact that through the American
S3'stem way of laAv we shall accomplish these purposes.
Now when he got through, my wife, who is a very, very spunky little
woman, raised her hand to ask a question. And he said, "Yes," and
l^ointed to her.
And she said, "Mr. Lawson, what is the ultimate goal of the Com-
munist Party?"
And lie immediately went into a long series of double talk, diver-
gence, tangents, all over the place. He didn't answer her question
one iota.
When he finally got through with the story, "But," she said, "I still
ask the same question. What is the ultimate goal ? Wliat happens
if we can't accomplish this through legal process, through the ballot
box?"
Again he went off on a long-winded story, evading the issue.
Three or four times she kept after him. And I almost started to
])oke her and say, "Hey, cut it out." I didn't realize what she was
after.
She kept needling him. Not needling, but insisting he answer the
ouestion, at least answer the simple question : "\'\liat is tlie ultimate
goal ?
And he finally got so angry, and his face flushed up — I shouldn't
use the word "red." But his face came red, and he just blurted out
with vehemence, "Revolution." But strong.
My wife said, "That does it."
He forgot himself for a moment. I think he forgot himself. I
assume that because there was a general murmur of dissatisfaction
in the group. They felt this wasn't necessary.
Mr. Jackson. JNIurmur of dissatisfaction ?
Mr. Glasser. Dissatisfaction.
But we knew right then and there, oh, oh, something is wrong.
This is definitely silly, ridiculous, because to follow this type of
thinking requires an individual that has certain basic elements of
conceit, of vanity and ego where thej^ think that what they feel is so
correct that they and they alone have the true message for the world.
These people are so vain in a small, petty way that, once they get
the idea of communism or socialism implanted in their brain, they
feel this is the only way that can help humanity go forward. They
become so stodgy and so stupid in their steadfastness and so blind —
they cannot see other ways and they refuse to accept other ways.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
3830 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Glasser. To me this is so ridiculous, so foolish. They just
cannot comprehend how big the world is, how much more there is to
life and living than just their one little idea.
And once we began to feel these things, this trend, we gradually
backed off and said, "What have we done now?"
When it finally came to the breaking point we said, "We'll get out
and get out fast. This is too much."
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Glasser, who were the leaders of this group of
the Communist Party? That is, the persons you foimd to be the
leaders after you joined the group ?
Mr. Glasser. There was one gentleman whom I always had a sort
of secret fascination for — put it that way ; his intelligence, a very lucid
man, a very fine brain. His name was Misclia Altman. This man
steered, ran, did everything.
He was just general factotum as far as I could tell. He was always
present at our meetings. I gathered he was present at all the other
meetings. He must have had three bicycles to run all over the town
at the same time.
Mr. Moulder. Are your references to these people in the year 1943 ?
Mr. Glasser. 1943, yes, sir. Only 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall the names of any persons who held
or seemed to hold positions in that organization, such as the person
who would collect the dues ?
Mr. Glasser. Yes, sir.
As to officials, our particular group was very loosely strung. There
was no definite, intense type of job. But various people would be
appointed at various times to do a certain type of thing — literary direc-
tor, to read some current book and discuss it at meetings and try to
make us all buy the book, which is one of the gimmicks, too, to help
raise money.
The literary director at one time, when we were at the party in 1943,
was a fellow named Henry Roth. This I recall vividly because he
gave a long dissertation on one of the books at the time, and discussion
groups were held on that particular subject. I think he was also the
treasurer of our group at one time.
Mr. Tavenner. That is Henry Roth, R-o-t-h ?
Mr. Glasser. R-o-t-h.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Glasser. A very fine violinist.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the
Mr. Moulder. Order in the hearing room, please.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of any other members
of that group you can now recall? Before doing that I want you
to know of your own personal knowledge that they were members of
this particular grou]:).
Mr. Glasser. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. And if you know they were members through your
personal knowledge, tlien we want that information.
Mr. Glasser. These are tlie only names I can actually recall. I
have done a lot of soul searching. At times certain names — you think
of a DCT'son's face. Going back 13 years, it isn't easy to remember
who is who.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3831
Mr. Moulder. Are you now going to identify these people as mem-
bers of the Communist organization or as members of your Communist
Party group ?
Mr. Glasser. These individuals here I can recall definitely as hav-
ing come to my home at the Communist Party meeting.
Mr. Moulder. All right.
Mr. Glasser. Henry Roth, Esther Roth, Mischa Altman, Carla
Altman, A-1-t-m-a-n, Herb Offner, 0-f-f-n-e-r.
Mr. Tavtenner. What was the first name ?
Mr. Glasser. Herb or Herbert.
Mr. Glasser. And Herb, H-e-r-b, Lessner, L-e-s-s-n-e-r. Cyril
Towbin, C-y-r-i-1 T-o-w-b-i-n. Sol Kaplan, S-o-1 K-a-p-1-a-n. Mar-
tha Goldberg, Anita Short, Kathryn Becker and Carroll Hollister,
H-o-l-l-i-s-te-r.
Mr. Tavexner. Did you say Becker ?
Mr. Glasser. Becker, B-e-c-k-e-r.
These are the only people whom I definitely know had been in the
Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. May I interrupt you at this point —
Those were the meetings you say the Communist group held in your
home. Were those meetings limited, within your knowledge, to Com-
munist Party members ?
Mr. Glasser. The two meetings that we had at our home, yes, sir,
were only of the Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. Limited to Communist Party members?
Mr. Glasser. That is right. And I might add to this there was
nothing surreptitious, nothing secret, nothing cloak-and-dagger type
of thing at all. The windows were wide open. We had the bakery
come to the front door and deliver all the bakery goods for refresh-
ments later. It was all very clean, very official, very normal, very
decent ; nothing wrong at all.
Mr. Moulder. Did you pay Communist Party dues?
Mr. Glasser, We paid Communist Party dues when I could afford
it at the time.
Mr. Moulder. Who did you pay them to ?
Mr. Glasser. Henry Roth-
Mr. Jackson. During what period of time? In what years were
these meetings conducted ?
Mr. Glasser. 1943, between August or September and about De-
cember. The reason I know that, in December we began to get out
and get out fast, was the fact that on December 11 you will find a
little card attached to the IVIusicians Congress letterhead. We threw
our first party to raise funds for the Congress Committee. The ques-
tion was how could we raise funds and get money to get the show on
the road for the congress. So the thought was expressed we should
throw a big party, serve refreshments and have a lot of good enter-
tainment and charge admission, and raise money by passing the hat.
So all the girls got together and cooked all the food, a ounch of
turkeys, potato salad — the usual things for a big spread. Entertainers
were invited, and a big party was thrown at a home which is listed on
die card, the address there, on December 11 of 1943.
We had very many big celebrities of the motion picture world
who had nothing to do with those elements at all, because this was now
77436—56 — pt. 9 3
3832 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
completely the Musicians Congress, a very cultural institution on the
surface, and many people were drawn in without knowing or suspect-
ing what might have been steering behind the scenes.
We had a very successful party and raised a few hundred dollars.
I was at the door collecting tickets and collecting admissions. My
wife was helping serve the food and cooked two of the turkeys. And
some of the girls from our party group cooked the other turkeys.
It was a very successful social affair. Put it that way.
But various things were happening at this time before and during
the party itself, this party to raise the funds, which began to give us
various insights into these people's character, where they were so petty
in various ways. We felt these can't be Communists. These people
talk of working for the world, for humanity, to help humanity ad-
vance and go forward. And all this yak, yak, yak about humanity :
"We love humanity." And they were doing so many little petty
things which didn't help humanity, but showed how selfish they were,
how petty they were in their thinking and their living.
And these two things are so diverse. How can we be petty and small
and think of yourself in a selfish way and still think of humanity and
work for humanity ? To me this is impossible.
Mr. Tavenner. You withdrew from the Connminist Party at the
time you withdrew as financial secretary of the Musicians Congress
Committee ?
Mr. GLiVSSER. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become affiliated with the Communist
Party at any later date ?
Mr. Glasser. Oh, no.
Mr. Tavenner. And your severance of ties with the Communist
Party then was complete?
Mr. Glasser. Complete and total. We stayed away from the Mu-
sicians Congress like a plague. We just went to one atfair, which was
based on motion picture nnisic. We are sorry we went. We com-
pletely avoided the entire Musicians Congress, wanted no part of it.
Mr. Tavenner. Since that time have you had any credits in your
profession, or works that had any special standing as being anti-
Communist in character?
Mr. Glasser. Yes, I have, very f ortmiately.
Mr. Tavenner. What are they ?
Mr. Glasser. Well, in the last Sy^ years I have composed, orches-
trated, and conducted music for over 85 motion-picture films, and
a few of these things including various types of films would be Top of
the World, I Shot Jesse James, Geisha Girl, Tolrv^o File 212, Captain
John Smith and Pocahontas, Huk, H-u-k, Paris Models, Invasion
USA, Unmie — a Japanese word that means faith.
Most of these pictures, Tokyo File 212, Invasion USA, and Huk,
which I just completed 2 months ago, are very strong, very dynamic
anti-Communist pictures. Invasion USA was a story of the sup-
posed future enemy invading the United States, and how they could
do it and what Avould ha])pen if they did it. They couldn't mention
any definite country. We weren't concerned with getting interna-
tional politics involved. But the idea was clearly brought to us as
to what could happen in such an event.
Tokyo File was made completely in the Orient, in Tokyo, and
showed how some of the Conununist Party methods operate, what
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3833
they have done in various ways, and shows their machinations, how
they can accomplish certain purposes and how it was stopped by the
Japanese Government with the help of the American Government.
At that time General MacArthur was still in Tokyo. And, in fact,
all of us who worked in the production, had to be cleared by the gen-
eral, I was told later, subsequently.
Huk was a story of the Communist uprising in the Philippine
Islands 5 years ago, and the damage it made and how it was stopped
eventually by Magsaysay, the President of the Philippine Islands.
Mr. Ta\'ennek. Was any effort made at any later date to get. you
back into the Communist Party ?
Mr. Glasser. No, I don't thinlv so for one reason. We made it very
clear and very self-evident we wanted no part of them. And I feel
sure in my heart that we were the dirtiest buch of bums they ever
recruited. They wouldn't want any part of us either. So it is mutual,
if anything.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle?
Mr. DoTLE. Yes.
I have never spoken with the witness, nor heard him say anything
until this hour. But you may not know, ]Mr. Glasser, that this com-
mittee is here under what is known as Public Law 601, passed in Con-
gress, delegating the members of this committee to investigate the
extent of subversive activities and propaganda in our country
whether it originates within our country or some foreign country,
and then to report what we find, with our recommendations, back to
Congress from time to time.
Of course, one of tlie purposes of tliis type of an investigation, as
well as the purpose of subj)enaing you, Avas not only to get the facts
which you have given us, but to see if there is a possibility of veering
those facts toward improving, modifying, or amending legislation
dealing with subversive activities in our country.
Mr. Glasser. That is right.
Mr. Dotle. The Supreme Court has held, and in commonsense,
that you can't legislate unless you know the facts.
Mr. Glasser. True.
Mr. Doyle. The most recent case so declaring was the case of
Quinn, which has been quoted by those who oppose this committee.
It is true, is it not, that I have never spoken with you in your life?
Mr. Glassj:r. That is right.
Mr. DoTLE. So I have no idea what your answer is going to be.
But I am going to ask you if you are at all familiar with the field of
legislation as it is at j)resent in Congress ?
Mr. Gl^\sser. Vaguely.
Mr. Doyle. Well, have you given it any thought ?
Mr. Glasser. Yes, I have.
Mr. Doyle. Which you can give us the benefit of ?
INIr, Glasser. What I think you are driving at, sir, is if I have any
ideas or thoughts that might help you as a committee.
Mr. Doyle. That is what I am saying to you.
Mr. Glasser. And the American public.
Mr. Doyle. Have jou any ?
Mr. Glasser. I do.
3834 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Doyle. Will you tell us your ideas or thoughts because we are
making a study of that very subject.
Mr. Glasser. I think you should almost take a page out of the Com-
munist book and throw it right ba.ck at them. It is very effective.
Mr. DoTLE. Throw what back at them and how ?
Mr. Glasser. From an educational committee.
What I have learned in the last month since I was subpena,ed, I
have had a tremendous education and very enlightening. I have
assembled all these things that have happened to us in the last month,
and it makes sense in one way.
Many people have called us and said, "Gee, Albert, I'm so sorry for
you. I'm so sorry you have been called up. Gee whiz, isn't it terrible?"
I come back and say, "No. This is wonderful. What is wrong?
What have I done that is so wrong? I didn't kill anyone, I didn't
rob a bank. I didn't do anything against my country. I have done
nothing criminal. I simply joined a rotten little Comnmnist Party
one time, and got out fast. Big deal. What have I done that is so
terrible ? Nothing. At the time I went in, the Communist Party was
not a bad thing."
Now the fact that this is being cleared up, and my name and repvita-
tion are being cleared up once and for all, where there can be no
suspicion as to where I stand and how I feel, this is a good thing ; not
a bad thing. I am darn glad the committee has called me in. I have
had a chance to tell the whole American world where I stand and
what I feel, take it or leave it. This is the way I am built.
Now what you should do as a conmiittee, I think, is to have an actual
educational coimnittee — follow a page from the Communist form of
operations — where you go on a deliberate campaign to tell the Amer-
ican public and get to the American public through the press, the
magazines, articles perhaps — I don't know how^ — television programs.
But point out all these thousands and thousands of Americans all over
the country who feel like I do, who at one time or another were so
liberal and felt a certain way for certain reasons, and they wanted to
do something to help.
Mr. Scherer. Don't you think it would be fine to have you on tele-
vision here today ? Would people then understand ?
Mr. Glasser. I wish I could.
But get to the American public because there are thousands like
me who are so frightened of you as individuals, based on one fact,
that, coming from a liberal element, liberal background, the fears of
you as a committee are very intense. They hate you with all their
blood, for one reason : They have been told to hate you by your Com-
munist Party again and other liberal elements.
Going way back to the Martin Dies committee, who did a great job
with Fritz Kuhn when they got that son-of-a-gun out of the country
and got his neck, and the Nazi Party at the time.
Once he jumped on a different form of political thinking, they
came back at him and slit his throat; the liberal elements.
The country has been told, and it has been thrown down their throats
by the publicists from the Communist Party — not necessarily paid
publicists but men working throughout the party and able to get these
through in various ways — it has been shoved down the American
public to hate your connnittee.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3835
Mr. Jackson. I think, if I may say, that Martin Dies has since
recovered completely.
Mr. Glasser. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jackson. And what comes out of it still makes a lot of sense.
Mr. Glasser. He did a magnificent job; no question of it. It is
historical. You can't lie with history.
Mr. Moulder. May Mr. Doyle proceed with his line of questioning ?
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Glasser, are you through giving us your recom-
mendations ?
Mr, Glasser. That you should have a deliberate campaign of edu-
cation of the American public that, "If you have anything to say per-
taining to any form of Communist membership at one time or another,
come forth. We are not going to hurt you. We are going to help
you" — in the way I have been helped.
Mr. Scherer. Again I repeat, there could be no more effective way
than to let the public see through the medium of television just what
you are saying and doing here today.
Mr. Glasser. This is true to a small extent. One appearance
wouldn't do it. It is a constant form of punching it. It takes time.
Mr. Doyle. In view of the fact that I have never spoken with you
in my life or knew anything about you except what you have stated
today, I am going to ask you this question :
Are you in any way, directly or indirectly, bein^ paid or compen-
sated for coming here without a lawyer and testif ymg this morning ?
Mr. Glasser. Absolutely not. This is silly.
Mr. Doyle. Have you in any way, directly or indirectly, been
promised any reward or compensation ?
Mr. Glasser. Absolutely not. It is silly.
Mr. Moulder. There is no basis for that.
Mr. Doyle. There may not be any basis for such a question, but
there are people in this room who have sort of a sneer on their face
right now.
Mr. Glasser. I am sure they will come forth and say that. I expect
villification from that forum. There is no question of it. It is antici-
pated.
Mr. Doyle. This witness is not what they call, in the Daily People's
World and other anti-American papers, a paid informer.
Mr. Glasser. They can't think for themselves. They are being told
w^hat to think. As far as the petty part of the pettiness
Mr. Moulder. Do you have any questions, Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. No; except to say, in the matter of the vilification
you will receive you will have a considerable amount of company, in-
cluding a great many Members of the Congress of the United States
who have been elected by their people.
]VIr. Glasser. I would be very proud to get the vilification.
Mr. Jackson. As long as the name of Max Silver and Dr. Louise
Light have been brought into the testimony, it should be in the record
that Max Silver and his wife also subsequently saw the same things
that you did in the Communist Party, and got out of it. Both of
them appeared before this conmiittee and gave extremely valuable
information based on their official capacity in the Communist Party.
I have nothing further.
3836 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr, Moulder. Mr. Sclierer, do you have any questions ?
Mr. SCHERER. No.
INIr. Moulder. Any more questions, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Glasser, tlie committee desires to express to you
our appreciation for your courage and your cooperation and the con-
tribution you have made in informing; the public and this committee
of such knowledge as you have concerning Communist Party activities.
In that connection I wish to say, as an example, I am sure your
appearance before this committee will not affect your employment.
You have had the courage, the patriotism to come forward and state
honestly, without any reservations, your past connections with the
Communist Party approximately 13 years ago, and give a very thor-
ough explanation about severing any connections you might have had
with the Communist Party.
Such conduct on the part of any person who appears before this
committee certainly has never and should never affect their employ-
ment.
Mr. Glasser, That is true.
Mr. Moulder. And I am sure the the rest of the committee will
concur with me that the employment of any other witnesses who would
be just as honest and straightforward as you have been would not be
affected either.
Mr. Glasser. Your country comes first.
Mr. Moulder. Unless they continue to believe in the Communist
philosophy they would not take
Pardone me,
Mr. Glasser. May I make one more statement ?
The thought that ocurred to us is the fact that the country comes
first no matter what. So much so that in time of war when I am
drafted and I get a letter from the President of the United States
requesting my presence at the induction center, I have got to go
w^hether I like it or not, or whether I believe it or not, or how I feel.
This is immaterial. But when my country requests my presence or
requests anything from me, I have got to go and I have got to do it.
Now your committee has requested my presence here. It is by the
same beholden duty I come and talk to you and answer any questions
you may have to throw at me as an agency of the Congress of the
United States.
This is our country. If you don't like it you can always get out,
which is an old cliche thrown around many times.
The fact remains when you are here and love it as much as I do and
intend to stay here and die here, I want to cooperate and work with
my country.
If you are the elected representatives of my country what more
can I say than to come back and say I will answer any questions you
want me to without any nonsense or boloney.
Many people want to evade these things. Why ? What have they
done that is so horrible? What did they do that they have got to
escape from the United States of America? Did they throw a bomb
somewhere? Did they pass information along? God knows what.
They must have done some horrible thing which only they know about
for which they would have to escape the United States of America.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3837
If they come here and say, "I take the fifth amendment" you say,
""Wliat have you done that is so horrible? Belonged to the Commu-
nist Party that was completely official and normal and correct at the
time? Tt^iatissobad?"
Mr. Moulder. As you have stated, you wanted to be a liberal, and
still have answered the questions. And there could be no question as
to your loyalty by the committee.
Mr. Glasser. I am still aware of many things wrong in the country.
And that will be corrected in time.
Mr. Moulder. I wish to reinterate my statement I made in apprecia-
tion for your clear and convincing testimony.
Mr. Doyle. I am sure my colleagues join with me in compliment-
ing this gentleman on his musical achievements and attainments.
Certainly music is a universal language.
Mr. Glasser. Yes, it is ; my language, anyway.
Mr. Moulder. Thank you very much, JNIr. Glasser.
The witness is excused.
Mr. Glasser. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Glasser.
Is she here ?
Mr. Glasser. My wife, Mrs. Glasser, is right back here.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give will
be the truth, the wliole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you,
God?
Mi'S. Glasser. I do.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson withdrew from the hearing
room at this point. )
Mr. Moulder. The photographers will please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF KATHERINE GLASSER (MRS. ALBERT GLASSER)
Mr. Tavenner. "W-liat is your name, please ?
Mrs. Glasser. Katherine Glasser.
Mr. Tavenner. You are the wife of Mr. Albert Glasser?
Mrs. Glasser. That is right.
IVir. Ta\t3nner. Mvs. Glasser, you were not subj^enaed as a witness;
were you ?
Mrs. Glasser. No. I came in voluntarih' .
Mr. TA^^ENNER. In the course of your husband's testimony the fact
of your membership in the Communist Party was made known. We
will give you an opportunity to state to the committee, without
reiterating his testimony, just what period of time you were in the
Coimnunist Party and anything you desire to state to the conmiittee
regarding your knowledge of the Communist Partj' activities.
Mrs. Glasser. Well, according to my knowledge, I know we got in
in 1943 because we base this upon roughly the date my child was born.
That day was not rough, but the child was born in January of 1943,
and it was shortly after that, a few months, that Max Silver and Dr.
Louise Light asked us to join, and we finally did.
Mr. Ta^t.nner. And how long did j^ou stay in the Communist
Party?
3838 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mrs. Glasser. It was a matter of just a few months as far as I can
recall, because I recall the printed little program slip from December
11, 1943, and it was after that that we broke with the entire thing.
Mr. Tai'enner. Why did you break with the Communist Party '^
Mrs. Glasser. Because their premises and principles did not agree
with ours. We happen to be free thinkers, and we believe in free
speech and free opinion, and did not believe in being directed as to
what I shall say or what I shall think or how I shall feel at any time,
to this day.
Mr. Tavenner. And you, while in the Communist Party, felt that
you were restricted in that way ?
Mrs. Glasser. Yes ; in many ways.
Mr. Moulder. At that point may I ask you this :
During the period of time Soviet Russia was our ally in the World
War, the Supreme Court of the United States had not yet held or
cited the Communist Party as being a world conspiracy to overthrow
our form of government by force if necessary. Is that not correct?
Mrs. Glasser. Yes ; that is true.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the first meeting of the Communist
Party that you attended ?
Mrs. Glasser. The very, very first meeting that I recall quite vividly,
for obvious reasons, was that meeting — I believe it was a telephone call,
and we were told to go to this address at Sunset Plaza Drive. And it
was one of these welcome-to-the-Communist-Party meeting things.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know in whose home that meeting was held ?
Mrs. Glasser. No. At first we thought it was in the home of the
Mr. Tavenner. Don't say whose home you thought it was unless you
know.
Mrs. Glasser. No; I don't know that. We presumed it was the
speaker.
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. I didn't hear you.
Mrs. Glasser. I said we presumed that it was the man who spoke
to us. We thought it was his home ; that was all.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean, "spoke to you"?
Mrs. Glasser. Well, trying to tell us the various premises of what
the Communist Party intended doing.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean the speaker at tlmt meeting?
Mrs. Glasser. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. WTio was the speaker at that meeting ?
Mrs. Glasser. John Howard Lawson.
Mr. Tavenner. But you do not know whether it was his home or
nc/t?
Mrs. Glasser. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat took place at that meeting?
Mrs. Glasser. As best as I can recall, it was welcome to the Com-
munist Party, and it was a group meeting of various groups ; integi'a-
tion in other words. And then they went on to explain tlie various
premises of what the Communist Party meant, which meant sharing
things, all the people sharing the businesses, the various, what we
consider liberal premises.
And then I became a little disgruntled with certain things because,
you know, in order to create a certain situation you have to arrive
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3839
there by some means. And I wanted to know what the means were.
And, as far as I can recall at that time, there was no such thing as
revolution. It was all evolution.
But it still didn't make sense to me, and I just kept asking ques-
tions because after the discussion was concluded they said, "Well,
any questions from the people sitting here?" And this just bothered
me because I wanted to know what is the eventual deal that we are
getting to. And finally he made the statement that — I mean I don't
know whether he was mad at me because I was a youngster then, and
he might have just blurted it out and not meant it — I can't presume
to think for him, but this is what he did say : He says, "By revolu-
tion, we will be able to evolve all the things that we want."
Mr. Tavenner. Was there anything else said by Mr. Lawson on that
occasion which you recall at this time ?
Mrs. Glasser. Not that I recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the musical family or organ-
ization ?
Mrs. Glasser. Yes, I am.
Mr. Tavenner. In what capacity ?
Mrs. Glasser. Well, I am an orchestra manager, which means that
I hire the musicians for the orchestras, and I am also a copyist and
librarian, which means writing down the notes for the musicians to
be able to play.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned to a particular gi'oup of the
Communist Party after this welcoming meeting referred to ?
Mrs. Glasser. Yes. It was a musicians' group, to the best of my
Iqiowledge. I mean, from what I can recall, there were not more
than 20 to 25 attending at any one meeting. But they were all musi-
cians.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe your husband has testified that several
of the meetings were held in your home.
Mrs. Glasser. Yes, they were. To the best of my knowledge, there
were two.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee the names of persons
that you yourself can identity as having attended Communist Party
meetings of the group of which you were a member.
Mrs. Glasser. Yes, I can.
Kalman Bloch, B-1-o-c-h, and his wife. I don't recall her first
name, but it was Mrs. Kalman Bloch as of 1943.
Anita Short, Sam Albert, Doris Albert, Blanche Sweet
Mr. Tavenner. Doris Albert the wife of
Mrs. Glasser. Of Sam Albert.
(Kepresentative Donald L. Jackson returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mrs. Glasser. There was Blanche Sweet and her husband. I don't
recall his first name. And Henry Roth, Esther Roth, Mischa Altman,
Carla Altman, Herbert Oft'ner, 0-f-f-n-e-r, Herbert Lessner,
L-e-s-s-n-e-r, and his wife, I believe. Don Christlieb
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment. Wliat is that name?
Mrs. Glasser. Christlieb.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell it, please.
Mrs. Glasser. C-h-r-i-s-t-1-i-e-b ; Victor Gottlieb, Eudice Shapiro
Gottlieb.
77436— 56— pt. 9 4
3840 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Jackson, Wliat is the first name?
Mrs. Glasser. Eiidice, E-u-d-i-c-e. Helen Tannenbaum
Mr. Tavp^nner. Spell the name, please.
Mrs. Glasser. T-a-n-n-e-n-b-a-u-m.
Cyril T-o-w-b-i-n, Towbin; Kathryn Becker, B-e-c-k-e-r, Carroll
Hollister ; Sol Kaplan, and Martha Goldberg.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you leave the Communist Party at the same
time that your husband did ?
Mrs. Glasser. We do everything together. So we left it together,
too.
Mr. Doyle. At that point may I ask this question : To your knowl-
edge were these two meetings of the musicians" group that were held
at your home limited in attendance to members of the Communist
Party ? In other words, was it a closed meeting ?
Mrs. Glasser. From my knowledge — and this I am quite certain
of — these were Communist Party meetings. They were closed only to
Communists.
Mr. Jackson". You mean they were open only to Communists.
Mrs. Glasser. Excuse me. Yes; they were open only to Commu-
nists.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there any additional fact you have not al-
ready testified to regarding your reasons for leaving the Communist
Party that you might want to tell the committee ?
Mrs. Glasser. Well, actually, as I said before, what they wanted
For instance, like, take the Musicians Congress. When they wanted
to raise funds they wanted just to have a party and just have enter-
tainers. I said this is ridiculous. How can you do this to people.
You just call them in and ask them for funds. You have to give
them something.
So that is when I started with the dinner, with the turkeys that were
discussed. And by the time I got through we had the most beautiful
turkey dinner for everybody. They had the most wonderful enter-
tainment, and the entire price was $2. And we still made a profit for
the Musicians Congress. So it can be done like ladies and gentle-
men instead of just asking people to contribute for their thoughts.
And these were things that did disturb me because I don't live this
way.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there anything else you desire to say to the com-
mittee ?
Mrs. Glasser. Yes. I desire to tell the woman who sat next to me
that I am very proud to be my husband's wife, no matter what she said.
And I heard everything that she said.
I am sorry if I started a disturbance, but nobody says anything
about my husband without my permission.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean in this hearing room ?
Mrs. Glasser. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle ?
We will have order in the hearing room.
Mr. Doyle. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. ScHERER. No questions.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3841
•Mr. Moulder. In addition to what you have said, I assume, Mrs.
Glasser, you share your husband's views concerning the Communist
Party and its objectives ?
Mrs. Glasser. In every possible way.
Mr. Moulder. Thank you very much.
You are excused as a witness. The committee will stand in recess
for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken, there being present Repre-
sentatives Moulder, Doyle, Jackson, and Scherer.)
(The committee was reconvened upon expiration of the recess, there
being present Representatives Moulder, Doyle, Jackson, and Scherer.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will come to order, please.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Herbert Offner, will you come forward, please.
Mr. Moulder. Will you hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help
j-ou God?
Mr. Offner. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HERBERT OFFNER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
FRANK PESTANA
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Offner. Herbert Offner.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record.
Mr. Pestana. Frank Pestana, P-e-s-t-a-n-a.
Mr. Tavenner. "When and where were you boin, Mr. Offner?
Mr. Offner. I was born in Montreal, Canada, in the year 1905.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to this country?
Mr. Offner. I would say approximately 1910, at the age of 5.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen?
Mr. Offner. Yes, sir ; I am.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you naturalized?
Mr. Offner. In 1928, in the city of Cleveland, Ohio.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time did you reside in Cleve-
land ?
Mr. Offner. Since 1919, and I resided there until the year 1936.
Mr. Tavenner, Where did you next reside?
Mr. Offner. Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. You have lived in Los Angeles since that time?
Ml*. Offner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession or occupation?
Mr. Offner. I am primarily a musician.
Mr. Ta%'f:nner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been? "
Mr. Offner. Well, I attended public schools of Newark, N. J. I
graduated from high school in Cleveland, Ohio. Thereupon I entered
a premed course at Western Reserve University, which I attended for
about a year and a half. Subsequent to that I enrolled at UCLA.
I have a bachelor of arts degree from that school, and a master of
arts degree, with a major in the music college.
Musically speaking, I received my early education at the Cleveland
Institute of Music, and had a scholarship there as a child, and studied
3842 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
composition under Roger Sessions and Ernest Bloch and later under
Arnold Schoneberg. That was at UCLA. I studied violin under
such teachers as Harold Berkley and Andre de Ribaupierre, and
viola under Samuel Lifschey. That about does it.
Mr. Tavenner. Approximately what date did you begin your pro-
fessional career in California ?
Mr. Ofener. The year 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Offner, were you aware of the existence of an
organized group of the Communist Party composed exclusively or
almost exclusively of members of the musical profession in Los
Angeles ?
Mr. Moulder. Do you mean at this date or now or at any time ?
Mr. Tavenner. At any time,
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Offner. Could you please repeat the question, sir?
Mr. Tavenner. Are you aware of the existence of an organized
group of the Communist Party in the city of Los Angeles at the pres-
ent time or at any time in the past composed exclusively or almost
exclusively of members of the musical profession ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Offner. In view of the fact that I am here under compulsion,
not of my own free will, and in view of the fact that I believe this
committee is in violation of the first amendment of the United States
Constitution in that it is trying to delve into the private thoughts and
opinions and associations of people, in view of the fact that I believe
that Public Law 601, which created this committee, is similarly in vio-
lation of the first amendment, which clearly states that Congress or
any authorized body appointed by Congress shall in no way abridge
freedom of the press, association, and free speech — therefore, I decline
to answer that question on the basis of the first amendment supple-
mented by the fifth.
Mr. Scherer. May I interrupt ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, do you believe that the first amendment of
the Constitution of the United States gives you the right to belong
to the Communist Party and then prevents this committee from inquir-
ing as to your membership in the party? Do you believe the first
amendment of the Constitution does that ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Offner. I wish to point out that the first amendment, in my
understanding of it, states clearly that Congress shall make no law
abridging freedom of speech or assembly, and that my refusal to an-
swer this question or the previous one was based on my understanding
of that amendment, sir, and of the fifth,
Mr. Scherer. The Congress itself and the courts have said that the
Communist I'arty is actually a criminal conspiracy directed by a for-
eign power. Now the firet amendment gives you no more right to
belong to such a conspiracy than it does to any of the other criminal
conspiracies, as, for example, a narcotic ring.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr, Scherer, Therefore, this committee certainly has the right to
inquire as to your membership in such a conspiracy, the same as an-
other committee or the Department of Justice would have the right to
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3843
inquire as to your membership in a conspiracy to violate the Narcotics
Act. It has nothing to do with the question of freedom of speech.
This committee is asking you whether or not you liaye membership
or have any knowledge of the activities of the Communist conspiracy.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest this witness be di-
rected to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question because
your reasons for declining to answer are not sufficient under the law.
Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question. May I have read again or
asked again the question that is pending ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. The question I asked was whether or not
the witness has knowledge of the existence of an organized group of
the Communist Party composed exclusively or almost exclusively of
members of the musicians' profession that may be in existence now
or has been in existence in the past in Los Angeles.
Mr. Jackson. My understanding from the witness' answer is that
he has invoked the first and the hfth amendments.
Mr. TAVENNEii. No ; I did not understand that.
Mr. Moulder. I did not understand that.
Mr. Jackson. I believe that is the case.
Mr. Doyle. He invoked the first amendment supplemented by the
fifth.
Mr. ScHERER. My question was only directed to the invocation of
the lirst amendment because, as I point out, we have the right to ask
him with reference to his membership in the Communist conspiracy
the same as another agency of the Government would have the same
right to ask him whether he had any knowledge of the operation of
any other conspiracy.
Mr. Moulder. I understand that you refuse to answ^er, and your
refusal is based upon the first and fifth amendments of the Constitu-
tion. Is that correct ?
Mr. Offner. To supplement the reasons for my previous refusal
to answer on the grounds that I already did give, I wish to state in
answer
Mr. Moulder. Will you answer my question definitely, specifically,
as to whether or not you refuse to answer, and whether you base your
refusal on the provisions of the first and fifth amendments of the
Constitution ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Jackson. That is in the record.
Mr. Moulder. He still refuses to answer.
Mr. Jackson. The record will disclose, I think, that the witness
refuses to answer on the grounds of the first amendment supplemented
by the fifth.
Mr. Moulder. That is correct. I am asking him that question.
Mr. Offner. I think that, as Congressman Jackson pointed out,
the record speaks for itself. It is on the record, I believe, what my
answer was.
That is correct, yes, sir ; that is correct.
Mr. Ta\'enner, Were you a member of the Communist Party, any
branch of the Communist Party, in 1943 ?
Mr. Offner. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
3844 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavennee. Were you a member of tlie Communist Party in
1928 when you were naturalized as an American citizen?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Offner. On the advice of counsel, I refuse to answer on the
grounds of the first amendment supplemented by the fifth.
Mr. ScHERER. In view of the witness' answer to that question, I
think we should ask the Department of Justice to determine whether
or not denaturalization proceedings should be commenced in this case.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Ta-\^nner. Mr. Offner, were you aware of the existence of a
plan by the Communist Party to use its members in assisting to gdt
the Independent Progressive Party on the ballot in this State in 19 <^.
Mr. Offner. Apparently, if I may digress for a moment here in
answer to the statement that was previously directed at me, my im-
pression of this committee here was that it was here to obtain infor-
mation, information preparatory to the passing of legislation or pre-
paratory to recommending certain legislation for Congress, and that
it was not an inquisitorial body, it was not here to pillory people or
to in any way accuse them of any crime, or to persecute them or prose-
cute them for any crime.
To my recollection, I have violated no law, I have committed no
crime, I haven't even been accused of having committed any crime.
Yet the threat was made here that I was to be threatened with revok-
ing of my citizenship.
Mr. Tavenner. You were threatened with an investigation of your
situation when you refused to answer a very plain question as to
whether or not you were a member of the Communist Party in 1928.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. When he was naturalized at the time.
Mr. Offner. May I point out, sir, that the recent decision of the
Supreme Court in the Slochower case condemned the practice of im-
puting any sinister meaning to the right of a person, the privilege of
that person to take the fifth amendment, and that the exercise of that
right to take the fifth amendment in no way establishes a confession
of guilt, nor is there a presumption of perjury.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Right at tnat point, Mr. Offner, I am glad you are
familiar with that recent decision by the Supreme Court of the United
States with reference to the State law of New York.
We, of course, agree with that decision.
Mr. Scherer. Don't say we do, Mr. Doyle. I do not agree with
it.
Mr. Doyle. I do in substance.
But may I say that you apparently agree with that decision. There-
fore, as far as I am concerned, I take it for granted that you can be
frank with this committee, and that you are not afraid of any impu-
tation of having done any wrong if you answer the questions of this
committee frankly and honestly.
If you believe in that decision why do you hide behind the fifth
amendment ?
Mr. Moulder. The next outbreak or disturbance or deuionstration
in the hearing room will necessitate clearing the room of those respon-
sible for the disturbance.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3845
Mr. DoYT.E. There are a half dozen people right over here that re-
peatedly cause a disturbance, and have done so every day they have
been here.
Mr. Moulder. Let us proceed.
Mr. DoTLE. You get my point.
Now you also are quite right that this committee is here to seek
information from you. That is why you were subpenaed, to give us
information as an American congressional committee looking toward
ways and means in which the United States of America, which you
adopted as j^our nation, could better legislate in the field of the Com-
munist or any othei conspiracy designed to overthrow by force and
violence our form of government.
Why don't you, therefore, as long as you have given that as a basis —
and you are quite right ; that is the basis or one of the reasons for
this committee's being here. "Why don't you cooperate and give us
the information instead of claiming something that j^ou are not afraid
of?
Mr. Offner. May I ask you a question?
Mr. Doyle. Certainly you can.
Mr. Offner. In one breath you tell us that you uphold the decision
of the Supreme Court in tlie Slochower case, which you are in favor
of. In the very next breath you ask me why I am attempting to hide
behind that fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr. Offner. Isn't there a contradiction in what you say?
Mr. Dotlt.e. Not at all.
Mr. Offner. The Supreme Court said that there is no attempt, nor
any reference nor implication of an attempt to hide behind anything,
nor is it a confession of guilt.
Mr. Doyle. I have given you an opportunity again to answer and
give the committee the information, and apparently you came here
cocked and primed to give a speech against the committee. It is clear
as crystal that is wliy you came. That is your position.
And you have the right to claim the constitutional provisions, of
course. But I didn't want you to claim familiarity with that recent
decision of the Supreme Court and then refuse to come forward with
information about the Communist conspiracy.
You are the one that is inconsistent. If j'^ou are not afraid of hav-
ing any imputation of guilt of some kind by pleading the amendment
Avhy do you plead it? What are you afraid of?
(The witness confers w4th his counsel.)
Mr. Offner. May I point out, sir, that the amendment — and I in-
clude the first as well as the fifth in this case — is for the innocent as
"well as the guilty.
Mr. Doyle. Certainly.
Mr. Offner. And your efforts to take the fifth amendment or the
meaning put into it by the decision of the Supreme Court recently
in interpreting that fifth amendment shows that you are out not to
uphold that fifth amendment but to destroy it.
Mr. Doyle. Oh, no. Let me state this one thing clearly for your
information. You have heard me state that I am in substantial
agreement with the Supreme Court decision to which you refer.
And I take it that you are. You are, aren't you ?
3846 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Offner. Well
Mr. Doyle. If you are or are not, say so. I have stated my pt)si-
tion. If you agree with that decision why then do you hide behind
the amendment in this case?
Mr. Offner. That to me again, Mr. Doyle, is an indication of a
contradictory statement.
Mr. Doyle. That is all right, but
Mr. Offner. You in one breath uphold the decision of the Supreme
Court in that particular case, and, in the next breath, you accuse the
person of hiding behind that.
That clearly states
Mr. Doyle. I don't impute anything to you, sir, as a result of that
amendment. I do impute to you a definite refusal to give to your
Congi-ess any information about the Communist conspiracy. You
laid before this group here the fact that you thought we had come
here to get information. We have. And our counsel has given
you a chance to give us the information. And then you plead the
amendment.
Mr. Offner. May I point out, sir
Mr. Doyle. I am not imputing any guilt.
Mr. Jackson. May we have the regular order? We have 20 or
25 more witnesses to hear.
On this discussion, of course, the witnesses are here prepared to
plead every possible instance in court where their position has been
upheld. It is quite logical. If we get into a debate as to the merits
of the decisions we can be here until next month, which I am sure
we don't want and I am sure the witnesses don't want either.
Mr. Moulder. Any additional questions, Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. No ; I have no questions.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please?
Mr. Offner. What is the question, sir?
Mr. Tavenner. I didn't think you remembered.
My question was were you familiar with the plan of the Communist
Party to use its members to assist in putting the Independent Pro-
gressive Party on the ballot in California in the year 1948 ?
Mr. Offner. To my best recollection, I believe I already answered
that question by pleading the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you so plead?
Mr. Offner. Yes, sir ; I do.
Mr. Tavenner. Testimony has been received that the members of
tliis musicians' group of the Communist Party with which you have
been identified by sworn testimony were directed to circulate petitions
to put the Independent Progressive Party on the ballot.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Offner. Is there an inference there, Mr. Tavenner, to the
effect that the people of this Nation do not have the right given them
by the first amendment to petition? Is it a crime to petition? I
would like to have that question answered.
Mr. Tavenner. I will be glad to answer the question in this way :
The committee has received evidence indicating tlie phm of the
Comnmnist Party to put a ticket on the ballot, not under the name of
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3847
the Comnuiiiist Party because it had been proved that they could not
appeal to the rank and file of the people of this country under its
proper name, and, therefore, the Independent Progressive Party in
this State was sponsored by the Communist Party.
Now that is a matter of which this committee has received some
evidence. You are in a position to enlighten the committee on that
subject, according to our information. We are asking you to do so.
Now Avill you answer the question ?
Mr. Offner. Yes, I will answer it.
The historical records are full of instances where the charge ol
conspiracy has been made in attempts to squelch public rights.
Mr. Moulder. Please let us proceed. We will never finish our
hearings.
That isn't an answer to the question, Mr. Offner. You could decline
to answer the question and state your reasons for declining, or make
a direct answer in response to the question,
Mr. Offner. Sir, I am merely attempting to answer in my own
way. If it is a clumsy way, if it is a little bit lengthy, I am sorry.
That is the only possible way I can answer this question to the best
of my ability.
Mr. Moulder. You do intend to give an honest answer to the
question ?
Mr. Offner. Yes, sir, I do intend to come to an honest answer in
this.
Mr. Moulder. All right.
Mr. Offner. History is full, as I said before, of evidences of this
type of charge, of conspiracy.
May I pomt out that Marcus Aurelius accused the early Chris-
tians
Mr. Tavenner. That is not responsive to the question, and I ask
that
Mr. Moulder. You are clearly far afield. You are directed to
answer the question or decline to answer the question — one or the
other.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
(Tlie witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Offner. Is the Chair ruling that I cannot give the answer in
my own way, but that I must restrict my answer to the coniines and
to the methods and procedures that this committee
Mr. Moulder. The Chair is ruling that you cannot give the answer
in the manner which you have on three occasions now, and endeavor
to reply by making a long dissertation or speech about ancient history
or something of that sort.
You understand clearly what covmsel means when he asked you that
question, without going around the bush as you are, and, therefore, I
direct you to answer the question or decline to answer, as you choose.
(The witness confers with his counsel.) ,
Mr. Offner. I am answering the question in the best way that I
know how. But I also would like to point out that there was a speaker
here the other day that spoke here for 6 hours without an interruption.
Mr. Moulder. You are directed to answer the question or decline
to, as you please.
774.10—56 — pt. 5
3848 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
(The witness confers with liis counsel.)
Mr. Oftner. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. That is the first and fifth amendments?
Mr. Offner. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. Now you see how easily you could have avoided all
this harangue we have gone through ?
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
(Kepresentative Donald L. Jackson returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a petition imder
date of January 31, 1948, at the end of which there is an affidavit
signed in the name of Herbert Offner to the effect that he had solicited
the signatures on this petition. Will you examine it, please, and state
whether or not the signature appearing in the affidavit was made
by you ?
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. At this point the chair wishes to announce that we
are honored by the presence in the liearing room of Col. Carl White,
director of customs of the port of Los Angeles.
Thank you.
Now may the record also show that the witness has examined the
document referred to by counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. I have asked the witness a question.
Mr. Pestana. I think the record should show tliat the witness is
examining the document.
Mr. Moulder. The record will show that the witness is examining
the document referred to by counsel.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Now this is being marked exhibit what?
Mr. Wheeler. No. 1.
Mr. Moulder. This document is now marked "Offner Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Tavenner. For identification only.
Mr. Offner. In declining to answer this question I would like to
state my reasons, primarily this, that, as is well known, the Constitu-
tion of the United States, specifically the first amendment, clearly
states that a person has a right to petition the Government, and that
I believe it is not in violation of any existing law. No one has com-
mitted a crime by signing petitions of this type. On the contrary,
they are exercising their constitutional right to do so.
But if I am asked whether that is my signatui-e or not, I decline
to answer on the basis of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I am in complete accord with the
witness, that no crime is involved in the matter of the petition. That
has been stated by the witness himself. And I submit that any claim
of the provisions of the fifth amendment relating to self-incrimina-
tion are obviously misused in this instance. I do not accept the re-
fusal of the witness in this instance inasmuch as he has stated that
no crime is involved, and ask for direction that he be required to
answer the question as the basis for a possible contempt citation.
Mr. Moulder. The witness has heard the statement and the motion
made by Mr. Jackson, of California. The witness is directed to an-
swer the question.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3849
Mr. Offner. I have already declined to answer that question on the
basis of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Jackson. May I make a statement for the record ?
I do not accept the answer on the basis of the witness' own state-
ment.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. I wish to supplement Mr. Jackson's statement and
the statement of our distinguished legal counsel a few minutes ago
when he explained to the witness that we are not undertaking to inter-
fere with the right of petition, but we were inquiring as to the extent
to which the Communist Party in California secretly, subversively
circulated this petition to obtain the signatures of unsuspecting Amer-
ican citizens without revealing the identity of the Communist Party as
the circulator.
That is why we are inquiring, as I see it, from this witness in this
jBeld.
It has nothing to do with our interfering with the right of petition
to the Government for redress of grievances.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Doyle is perfectly right.
The Government always has the right to inquire into fraudulent
petitions which deceive the public.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to ofi'er the document in evidence, and ask
that it be marked "Offner Exhibit No. 1."
(This exhibit is shnilar to Roth Exhibit No. 2, p. 3860, and will not
be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the committee's
records.)
Mr. Moulder. It is so ordered.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party
Mr. Offner?
Mr. Offner. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Offner. The same type of question ; the same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions of this witness.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. You may claim your at-
tendance fee at the desk behind your chair.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Sam Fordis.
Mr. Moulder. Will you please hold up your right hand and be
sworn.
Do j^ou solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
help you, God ?
Mr. Fordis. I do.
3850 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
TESTIMONY OF SAM FORDIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
FRANK PESTANA
Mr. TAArENNER. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. FoRDis. My name is Sam Fordis.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that the witness is accompanied by the
same counsel who accompanied the preceding witness.
Wlien and where were you born, Sir. Fordis ?
Mr. Fordis. I was born in July of 1921 in Kansas City, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?
Mr. Fordis. I reside in Los Angeles, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Fordis. I have lived here successively since, I believe, 1934.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ?
Mr. Fordis. I am a musician.
Mv. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for-
mal educational training has been.
Mr. Fordis. Yes, I would be glad to.
I received the usual elementary school education and studied music
at an early age privately. I was given a scholarship as a youth some-
where — Oh, I believe I was 9 or 10 years old. I played a weekly
radio program with my teacher acting as guardian, so to speak, along
with me. I played these programs over one of the important sta-
tions in Kansas City.
Our family left Kansas City and came here, at which time I re-
sumed my studies of violin, and then the correlative studies in music
proper — harmony, counterpoint, composition, solfeggio.
I attended high school, was concert master of the high school or-
cliestra, was represented on the, as I recall, the all-city high school
orchestra, and then the all-State high school orchestra in the capacity
as violinist.
On graduation from high school, I went to college where I received
an A. A. degree, an associate of arts degree in music. I went to UCLA,
continuing my education in music, in the meanwhile playing, perform-
ing, studying in every attempt to broaden my musical knowledge and
understanding.
Mr. Tavenner. What date did you complete your studies at UCLA ?
Mr. Fordis. Somewhere in May or June of 1942, I believe. I en-
listed in the Army Air Forces.
Mr. TA\rENNER. How long did you serve in the United States Army ?
Mr. Fordis. I served for 3^^ years approximately.
Mr. Tavenner. Then in approximately 1945 or early 1946 you
returned to the practice of your profession ?
Mr. Fordis. That is substantially correct.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not certain I understood the date and place of
your birth. Will you tell me that again.
Mr. Fordis. The date and place?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Fordis. Did the recorder get that?
Mr. Tavenner. I said I didn't. I presume the reporter did.
Mr. Fordis. The date was July 21 of 1921.
And you wanted the place, too ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3851
Mr. FoRDis. Kansas City, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. Did yon ever live in Minneapolis ?
Mr. FoRDis. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You practiced your musical career then in Kansas
City and here in California except such times as your work required
you to go out on short trips. Is that correct ?
Mr. FoRDis. That would be correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the organized group of
the Communist Part}^ composed exclusively or almost exclusively of
musicians in the city of Los Angeles?
Mr. FoRDis. Is that the question, sir ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. FoRDis. The full question?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. FoRDis. I decline to answer that question, sir, and I would like
to explain my reasons, if I may.
Mr. Tavenner. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that he be permitted
to state his legal gi'ounds, and be confined to that.
Mr. Moulder. He has declined to answer and requested the oppor-
tunity to state his reasons for not answering. He clearly has that
right under the law. I don't know what they are going to be, but lie
has the right.
Mr. Forms. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the chair a question ?
Without seeming to be impudent, and with no intention of being,
there are some questions which I feel are in the category of, "Have you
stopped beating your wife."
^Members of tiie law here on the committee, I believe, are familiar
with this type of question.
I would like to, if you permit me, give my reasons to this question.
Mr. Moulder. You are entitled to give your reasons for declining
to answer.
Mr. Jackson. 1 would (jualify that, Mr. Chairman, by saying he
is entitled to give his legal reasons.
Mr. Moulder. His reasons may be legal. I don't know. We don't
know until he proceeds.
Mr. Jackson. We have no way of knowing until he proceeds.
Mr. FoRDis. Mr. Tavenner has asked a question which today has
very serious import because it has already been stated in the case of
the Slochower decision and so on, and other decisions, a person who,
for reasons as a sovereign of the United States, as a citizen of our
country, has the privilege of not giving or giving, affirming or deny-
ing any questions relating to specific parts of the first amendment of
the Constitution, which refer specifically to opinions, which refer to
associations. These are, in essence, an invasion upon the rights of
a citizen.
Now, if I so choose
Mr. Scherer. Even the Slochower decision didn't say that.
Mr. FoRDis. If I so choose to refuse to affirm or deny, this is my
privilege. It is your privilege and my privilege, as I understand it,
unless counsel will tell me that I am wrong.
Mr. Tavenner. As far as counsel is concerned, you are absolutely
wrong when you go outside of the legal ground for refusal to answer.
If the committee rules otherwise, of course, that is
3852 COMMUNIST ACTWITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. FoRDis. Is this senior counsel?
Mr. JNIouLDER. Proceed.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson withdrew from the hearing
room at this point. )
Mr. ScHERER. Yes, he is very senior. He tried the war crimes trials
in Japan for the Government of the United States, and I could tell
you a lot more about Mr. Tavenner's ability. He is very senior
counsel.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Forms. Of course, this enters upon an area where senior coun-
sel and my counsel might, in the light of their legal knowledge, dis-
cuss their different opinions as to counsel's statement.
However, I do not believe that this or similar committees — due to
the fact that, if associations are asked of anybody, that I may or may
not be an active member of a trade union or of Boy Scouts or Cub
Scouts, I am not assured that at some future time that these organ-
izations might be deemed subversive. I am not saying that you gen-
tlemen are going to make this statement. But it might be possible
because we know in our history that what was popular one time was
unpopular another time.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I object to this witness taking the time
of this committee to give "some time in history" and so forth, and I
move that he be confined to giving his legal reasons. That mani-
festly is not a legal reason.
Mr. Tavenner. May I suggest that it might be of some value to
announce that the committee is prepared to stay here to finish this
work no matter how long the witnesses attempt to delay the pro-
ceedings.
Mr. Mout^der. Of course, we are not going to be made to appear
ridiculous.
I won't be intolerant, but we are going to proceed fairly in these
proceedings.
The objection made by the gentleman from California, Mr. Doyle, is
sustained.
Please proceed without giving us a long discourse on your inter-
pretation of the meaning of the Constitution, but state briefly your
reasons for declining to answer the question. If 3^ou are claiming the
amendments as reasons for not answering the question, do so.
Mr. FoRDis. In other words, Mr. Moulder, you are sajdng you are
not going to give me the same privilege as the first witness in length
of time.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes, you have had ample time.
Mr. Scherer. There is a significant difference between this man
and the first witness. The first witness answered counsel and the
committee's questions. This man isn't answering. If he answers
your questions instead of declining to answer, I will let him make a
speech all day. But he isn't answering. He is refusing to answer.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. FoRDis. I don't intend to make speeclies all day. I would just
like to answer the question without interruptions, if I may.
Mr. Doyle. I am going to object to this witness making a speech.
He has been here in the room and he heard Mr. Off'ner make the same
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3853
sort of remarks, and finally Mr. Offner was gracious enough to co-
operate and give the first and fifth amendments as a basis for refusing
to answer.
Now if these are legal reasons, I am asking that he give them. If
they are not, I object to his making a speech.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. As yon know, it is most difficult to preside as chair-
man of a committee of' this sort when everybody wants to make a
speech. I am not going to make one.
I am not badgering you to try to encourage you to make one. So
please cooperate with the committee by declining to answer, and state
your reasons for declining to answer as briefly as possible, and cite
the Constitution if you intend to claim it as your reason.
Mr. FoRDis. In other words, we should be as objective without be-
coming subjective — Ave should be as objective about this as possible.
Mr. Moulder. Do you decline to answer?
Mr. FoRDis. Now I decline to answer the question on the reasons as
stated before, and also I decline to answer for reasons that this com-
mittee, although having stated that it did not come at this time to
interfere with the union affairs
Mr. Doyle. I object to this sort of a tirade against the committee.
Mr. FoRDis. I believe
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute.
I am going to insist that you be bound by the same procedure that
this committee has bound other witnesses to. I don't laiow what
your counsel is advising you. He has the right to advise you only
on your constitutional rights.
Mr. FoRDis. Mr. Doyle, what are you afraid of?
Mr. Doyle. I am not afraid of anything.
Mr. JNIouLDER. Let's have order.
Let me tell you one thing clearly, and then we will proceed in that
order.
You are being given a reasonable time to answer the question or to
decline to answer. If you don't do so immediately you will be ex-
cused as a witness, and probably face a contempt proceeding. That
is a danger and a risk which you are going to have to assume and take
upon yourself.
Mr. FoRDis. Is this a threat?
Mr. Moulder. It is not a threat. It is said in the spirit of advising
you so that you might avoid placing yourself in that position. Cer-
tainly it is not a threat.
Mr. FoRDis. Now, to continue, if I may continue, this is an unfor-
tunate time for the committee to have come to Los Angeles.
Mr. ScHERER. I move that the witness be excluded from the witness
stand.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excluded from the room.
Mr. FoRDis. I stand on the fifth amendment in addition.
Mr. Moulder. The officer will take the witness from the witness
stand.
Mr. FoRDis. Thank you, gentlemen.
Mr. Taa^nner. I desire to offer in evidence a photostatic copy of
a petition to participate in the primary election of June 1, 1948, by
the Independent Progressive Party of California, at the end of which
3854 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
there is an affidavit over the signature of a person by the name of Sam
Fordis, F-o-r-d-i-s, bearing date the 7th day of January 1948, show-
ing that he circuhated this petition in the area of Los Angeles and
obtained the signatures.
And a second petition of the same character with the same type of
affidavit, bearing the date the 16th day of February 1948, signed with
the name Sam Fordis.
I ask that they be introduced in evidence and marked "Fordis Ex-
hibits Nos. 1 and 2," respectively. (These two exliil)its are similar to
Roth exhibit No. 2, }). o8G0, and will not be reproduced in the printed
record. They are on file in the committee's records.)
Mr. Moulder. It is so ordered.
Mr. Moulder. Call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Henry Roth.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your rio-ht hand and be sworn, please, Mr.
Roth.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
3'ou God ?
Mr. Roth. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY ROTH, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BEN MARGOLIS
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please.
Mr. Roth. Henry Roth, R-o-t-h.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record.
Mr. Margolis. My name is Ben Margolis.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, ]Mr. Roth?
Mr. RoTH. Pardon me, jNIr. Chairman.
May I submit a short statement to be put on file for the committee ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes; you may. The statement is admitted.
Mr. RoTH. I would like to read it. It would take about a minute
and a half. I would really appreciate if I could read it.
Mr. Moulder. The statement will be admitted, and is on file.
Therefore, let's proceed with the examination of the witness.
What is the question pending?
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were vou born ?
Mr. RoTH. New York, August 20, 1916.'
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. RoTH. Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles?
Mr. Roth. Off and on since 1923 ; most of the time.
Mr. Tavenner. In M'hat profession are you engaged?
Mr. Roth. Well, I am basically a professional musician, but, like
most musicians, by virtue of our j^ermanent 80 percent unemployment,
I have done other things. I have been in the building game, and I
iim also a student.
Mr. Tavenner. But essentially you say you are in the musical
profession ?
Mr. RoTir. Well, I would say essentially all three of those would
bo correct, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3855
Mr. Tavenner. Were you essentially in the musical profession in
this area in 1943?
Mr. Roth. I believe so.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Roth. I have gone to grammar school. I am a liigh-school
graduate. I have had extensive private training on the violin. I
have been a violin soloist. I have been under contract at the studios,
and later on my education consisted of, well, when I helped my union
to get some $2 million a year in wage increases from the Hollywood
studio producers, and when I helped to end the Jim Crow racial seg-
regation in my union, and when I appeared before the Kearns inves-
tigating committee, which I imagine you gentlemen know about
Mr, Ta\t:nner. Were you educational director of an organized group
of the Communist Party in 1943 composed almost exclusively of mem-
bers of the musical profession ?
Mr. RoTH. Well, sir, that has to do with my political affiliations,
and I am going to refuse to answer that on the following grounds :
The first reason, this attempt to blacklist outspoken members of my
union, is an attack upon my union, and I will not cooperate with it.
]\Ir. Doyle. Just a minute, ]\Ir. Chairman. I am going to object to
tliis. This witness came here to make a speech manifestly, and I am
objecting, and require that he be confined to stating his legal reasons
for refusing to answer the question. He has filed a statement.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Roth. May I read the statement, Mr. Doyle? It is short.
Mr. Doyle. No.
Mr. Roth. It is a promise.
Mr. Doyle. I ask that he be confined to his legal reasons like all
other witnesses are confined.
Mr. Moulder. We cannot tolerate your complaints and accusations
against the committee, and the Chair will recognize your privilege of
giving reasons for declining to answer.
Mr. RoTii. ISIr. Moulder, I honestly promise to be short. I hon-
estly promise to be short.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed then.
Mr. RoTH. Secondly, the second reason is that I consider this an
invasion on my private rights under the first amendment for this
committee to use me as an attempt to get free election publicity in the
coming election campaign.
Mr. Moulder. I assure you I am not getting any.
Mr. RoTH. Third, sir, I would like to know if your hurry is in order
to get down South and investigate the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute.
I am going to insist that this witness confine himself to legal rea-
sons.
Mr. Moulder. You will be given one more opportunity to answer or
decline to answer the question.
INIr. RoTH. Mr. Chairman, are you legally adjusted to my reasons,
sir?
Mr. INIouLDER. We are offering you a reasonable opportunity
to answer
77436—56 — pt 9 6
3856 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Roth. I have a right to state them.
Mr. Moulder. Or decline to answer and state your reasons for not
answering the question.
Mr. Roth. I have a right to state them, sir, I believe, and I haven't
taken time.
Mr. Moulder. So far you have not, and the witness will be excused
because you decline to answer the questions.
Mr. Roth. What is your question ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Roth. Am I ordered to answer the question?
Mr. Moulder. Yes; you are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Roth. What is the question, sir ?
Mr. Tavenner. The question, which you have not paid any atten-
tion to, is whether or not in 1943 you were a member of an organized
group of the Communist Party in Los Angeles composed exclusively
or almost exclusively of members of your profession.
Mr. Scherer. And your question added whether or not he was edu-
cational director of that organization.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Scherer. That is the question.
Mr. Tavenner. May I withdraw that last question.
Mr. Roth. You have me confused now. I don't know what the
question is.
Mr. Moulder. So we have no doubt, I suggest the reporter go back
to the original question and read it.
Mr. Roth. Will I get the original time limit or is that going to
be
Mr. Moulder. Let the reporter read the question.
("VYhereupon, the record was read by the reporter, as follows:)
AVere you educational director of an organized group of the Communist Party
in 1943 composed almost exclusively of members of the musical profession?
Mr. Roth. Do you Congressmen agi'ee that this is the question I
have to answer?
Mr. Moulder. Yes. The witness is directed either to answer or
decline to answer the question.
Mr. Roth. Very well then, I will start again.
I must refuse to answer that question because I feel this hearing is
deliberately timed to the affairs of my union, to achieve national
publicity, and is an attack upon my union.
Mr. Moulder, The witness will be removed from the witness stand
for deliberate contempt of this committee.
Mr. Roth. I am still giving my reasons.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will stand in recess until 1 : 30.
Mr. Roth. I am still giving my reasons on the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Tavenner. You got it in, didn't you ?
Mr. Roth. I sure did.
Mr. Scherer. I move that that last answer of the witness be stricken
from the record because it was made after he was ordered to leave the
room and after the committee was adjourned.
Mr. Moulder. The record will speak for itself. The committee
was not in session when he made the statement.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3857
(Whereupon, at 12 noon, the committee was recessed, to be recon-
vened at 1 : 30 p. m., this same day, there being present Representa-
tives Moulder, Doyle, and Scherer.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— THURSDAY, APRIL 19, 1956
(The committee was reconvened upon the expiration of the recess
at 1 : 40 p. m., there being present Representatives Moulder, Jackson,
and Scherer.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Call your next witness, please, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, before we commence the afternoon
session, I would like to say that it has been obvious to me that there
has been, upon the part of a number of the witnesses who have testified
before this committee, a planned and deliberate attempt to harass the
committee and to delay and to interfere with the work of the com-
mittee.
The last two witnesses in particular have participated in this at-
tempt, and, to my mind, they are guilty of contempt. Therefore, I
am going to move that the subcommittee recommend to the full com-
mittee that the last two witnesses, Henry Roth and Sam Fordis, be
cited for contempt of Congress.
Mr. Moulder. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. May I at this time acknowledge receipt — and I am
not going to read the letter, but I think it should go into the record — •
a letter from Victorio Toriano, who identifies himself as a busboy in
a local restaurant, and who has sent in, with his congratulations and
expression in support of the committee, a $5 bill to be used in the
fight against communism, from which he says he is happy to be an
escapee.
While the Treasury is in not too good straits, it is not the intent
or purpose of the committee to solicit or use or accept any money of
this kind, and it would be my hope that the chairman of the sub-
committee would express the thanks of the committee to Mr. Toriano,
and that his money be returned to him.
Mr. Moulder. The subcommittee will return the money, and ex-
press our appreciation for the sentiments expressed in this letter.
Mr. Jackson. And I ask also, Mr. Chairman, that the letter be
inserted in the record at this point.
Mr. Moulder. It is ordered by the subcommittee that the letter
referred to by Mr. Jackson be inserted in the record at this point.
(The letter referred to follows :)
Apeil 17, 1956.
Chairman and Members of the House Un-American Activities Committee at
Present in Los Angeles:
Honorable Gentlemen : Although I'm a person of humble background and
occupation — at present I'm a busboy in a local restaurant — I want to congratulate
all of you for the fine job you are doing : exposing those who wittingly or other-
wise are helping or have in the past helped the Communist cause.
I also would like to congratulate you for the patience and fairness you've dis-
played yesterday towards those subpoenaed, the majority of whom behaved like
boors and not "cultured," as they so loudly claim to be. I'm quite sure that
even I, with almost no education, would have behaved like a sensible adult
3858 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
should. I'd like to add also that, although I never had the means, I've managed
to travel a little. I've been to a few foreign countries, not as a tourist, and I
assure you, gentlemen, that there's not a single country in the world where
witnesses such as Mrs. Edith Rapport could have behaved the insolent way she
did yesterday towards you and gotten away with it. She knows very well that
if she had behaved that way in her native Russia, if fortunate, she would at this
moment be in solitary confinement ; if unfortunate, she probably would already
have been disposed of.
Now, concerning Mr. Rubin Decker's "deep concern" for Nat King Cole and
the Negro in general, I'd like to state as a member of a racial minority that
Mr. Rubin Decker's kind is not sincerely concerned over the Negro or any other
minority except for propaganda purposes. If Mr. Rubin Decker's kind would
ever get in power, we, the so-called I'acial minorities for whom he and his kind
weep so copiously now, would be the first to go under the heels of these poten-
tial tyrants. To finish, I'd like to very respectfully ask you to please accept
the five-dollar bill I enclose to be used in the fight against the Communist con-
spiracy and their native and foreign puppets. I only wish that I was financially
able to give more to you.
Give my best regards to Rep. Francis E. Walter, truly a great American, and
keep up the good work.
Yours for the great United States of America,
ViCTORIO TORIANO,
634 Sunset Boulevard, Los Avgelcs 12, Calif.
P. S. — Please overlook any grammatical mistakes I may have committed in
the course of my letter. As for William D. Waddilove, let it be known that it
takes a lot more guts to state that one has been a Communist than to hide behind
the 5th or any other Amendment. Three Bravos for him.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I desire to offer in evidence at this
time a photostatic copy of an affidavit of registration of Henry L, Roth,
bearing date the I7th day of April 1948, showing an intention to affil-
iate with the Independent Progressive Party.
I also offer in evidence a petition of the Independent Progressive
Party of California, at the end of which there is an affidavit over the
name of Henry L, Roth, bearing the date iho, 15th day of February
1948, stating, in substance, that he had circulated this petition and
obtained the signatures thereto.
I ask that these documents be admitted in evidence and marked
"Roth Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2," respectively.
(Representative Clyde Doyle entered the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Moulder. It is so ordered.
(Exhibits referred to follow :)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3859
IlOTH Exhibit No. 1
^ENT OF TRANSFEK OR CHANGE OF NAME]
I Iwt re^ttered under th«nStaie o(
L removed from
s
Precinct
I hereby authorize the cancellation of said registration.
omakL
L08 AWOELB8 CITY PWICPtCT WO-
JJ_1^
ss.
AFRDAVIT OF REGISTRATION.
STATE OF CALIFORNIA, ^ .»••«■». w..— a«i ..,».•.«— ^ ...^.. *T
COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES.
The undersigned affiant, being duly sworn, says: I will be at least twenty-one years of age at the time of
the next succeeding election, a citizen of the United States ninety days prior thereto, and a resident of the State
one year, of the County ninety days, and of the Precinct forty days next preceding such election, and will be
an elector of this County at the next succeeding election.
1. I have not registered from any other precinct in the State since January 1, 1936.
(If ftppUcADt fau ao prcriousljr t^giMtata, nurk out the word "not" vid ^11 out the ippropriate blajiki kt the top of
2. My full name is..
I Ul out t
■ road. If rnn(4e from both, thi
oTtt
Sec., Twp , and Range.)
cladinl Chrittiftn or ■
My residence '■- f ?^ " t^_ 1
OJufll it/eel or rojd. If . _
'^■V^l:(AjHrzr*.aiid~t/^ Floor, Room .^
n /^A,^J
Side
Post-office addressV
My occupation is
My height is
I was bom i
9. I intend to affiliate at the ensuing
primary election with the ^
(Its Bative bom citlioi 7ou need not «n,wa qi
7. I acquired citizenship by \ J' Fa3^o.tuT»h
(Underline method of icquirinc ( Mom^'t niturslixal
cituenship.) / c. Citiienthip of fither.
d. Marriage to a citiien prior to September 22. 1922.
e. Naturalitatioo of my huiband prior to September 22, I«22
C ^"^L L E^ D
i. Act of Congrn
( Br
TRANSFER
DEATH j.;iJ''''J^A"'
Dale / -y^ 7 '^^^-^
IStNJ^V.I'! S. HUE, I'.t; 'jsjfsi oi Voters
(when)..
(where).
fir.
-MJA^
hUicr'(
isotbcf
husband'
My motber'a name IS (was)..
(To be fiUed out irbcn citixcnahip depends on citiienahip or uatnraUaatiflfi of parait or hnihaod.)
8. I can read the Constitution in the English language ; I can write my name ; I am entitled to vote
by reason of having been on October 10, 1911 } f m^^JSJJ .utx jean oi a(e.
I can mark my ballot by reason of..
^ (Affiant ..-Sertl^^ '
State pbyiical diaabiliiy, if any J
^1 (Affiant •■■i^ertl_,^
(Street Addreaa)
Subscribed and sworn to before me this
scribed and sworn to beutre
..J....I. day of w'..
J. DO
By..
HU
Deputy Registrar of Voters.
H.K.
Kegistrar oL^terti 'v
435543
3860 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Roth Exhibit No. 2
IPPQ2666
INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE PARTY OF CALIFORNIA
PETITION TO
PARTICIPATE IN THE PRIMARY ELECTION JUNE 1, 1948
ClicuUtad In tli« Countr (or City ud Countr) ol.../r:C.S /^/i.Cr.£.l.£^.S...
STATE OF CALIFORNIA,
County (or City ud County) ol L.B S }\ Is! t^.l^ J. £1-
TO THE HONORABLE SECRETARY OF STATE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA:
W«, the undvrilgned, r*gUt«r*d. qutlUlad •lector* of the Stit* oi Caliiornla. reiidentt of tli*
County (or City and County) ofZaS A ^ G £ Le:~^ . Slats ol California, present to the Secretary
of State of the State of California thla Petition and declare that we represent a political party, the name
of which U INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE PARTY OF CALIFORNIA, which party said electors de-
sire to have participate in the Primary Election to be held on June 1. 1948.
NAME
BESIDENCE
Street and Number City or Town
Dale of
aisBlng
Prednet
1
a
8
•>
■'■■—
49 .
1
50
' M ^
STATE OF CALIFORNIA,
Coonty (9r City ud County) of.(L>.S ^'-W-^T-tTi^.-
/l.£.A/./^.y L. K.Q.JZjti. _ , being first duly sworn, depOM* ud aayu
I un, aaa during all the time while soliciting signatures as hereinafter set forth wta, a quallfUd
and registered elector of the aboTO named Cotinty (or City and County) of fr^A.S fi..(\0:.£:i~l^.~
and of the State of California; I am the person who solicited the signatures to the attached and fore-
going Petition; all the aignaturea to the attached ssctlon were made in my presence and upon the date
shown after each signature, and at the time each signer signed his name to said Petition he also affixed
thereto hU residence as above stated, and the date of said signing, and said signatures were eoUdted
by me within the above named County (or City and County) oiJ^ti..S..n..ti..Cr..('Lir.S. ^ ud ts
the best of my knowledge and belief, each signature to the aatd section la the genuine signature oi tba
person whose name it purports to be. ,
Snbscribad and sworn to baiore me
ih\tJ.^..AKi ol
194.^..
_ LA,i^£f.*.„.n^...s^
MoUry Pnblle fas nd<fa* th«
Vl| CommlMton bclns Oo. S,
Ctty ud Caatf) «
SUta of CdUerala.
itr (or
^«^^
'-'-Tn^Ai
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3861
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, there have been several individuals
identified as members of this Communist Party musicians' group dur-
ing the course of the testimony and who have not been subpenaed. For
lack of time, the staff and the committee did not attempt to subpena
them.
I desire to offer in evidence at this time a petition of the Independent
Progressive Party of California, at the end of which there is an affi-
davit by Seymour Sheklow, bearing the date the 6th day of February
1948, in which it is stated that he is the individual who circulated this
petition and solicited the signatures. I ask that it be marked "Sheklow
Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. MotJLDER. It is so ordered.
Mr. Tavenner. And I desire also to introduce in evidence another
petition of the same character, at the end of which there is an affidavit
over the name of Samuel Albert, bearing date the 29th day of January
1948, in which it is stated that he is the individual who solicited the
signatures thereon. I ask that it be marked "Albert Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Moulder. It is so ordered.
(The above-mentioned petitions, Sheklow exhibit No. 1, and Albert
exhibit No. 1, are similar to Roth exhibit No. 2, p. 3860 and will not
be reproduced in the printed record. They are on file in the com-
mittee's records.)
Mr. Tavenner. I might say that the last-named individual ap-
peared before this committee on the 7th day of April 1953, and at
that time refused to answer any material questions, relying upon the
fifth amendment.
Will Mr. Cyril Towbin come forward, please ?
Mr. Towbin?
Mr. Margolis. I think he thought it was 2 o'clock. The impression
was it was 2 o'clock. Do you want to wait a minute? I will see if
he is outside.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Victor Gottlieb.
Mr. Brooks. Mr. Gottlieb was to meet me here at 1 : 30. I expect
he is on his way. I will make a phone call.
Mr. Margolis. I think Mr. Towbin will be here in 2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me know when he arrives ?
Mr. Manuel Compinsky.
Mr. Margolis. Mr. Towbin is on his way down the hall now.
Mr. Brooks. Mr. Compinsky is here, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I will call Mr. Towbin first.
Mr. Moulder. Please hold up your right hand and be sworn, Mr.
Towbin.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Towbin. I do.
3862 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
TESTIMONY OF CYRIL TOWBIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BEN MARGOLIS
May I just say that if I appeared to be a little delayed it was because
I had been told the hearing would start at 2 o'clock.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. TowBiN. I want to give you my name, Mr. Counselor, under
protest.
I am brought here under compulsion. My name is a very good
one. It has been honored and respected, and I know too well — and
who doesn't — that the name mentioned before this committee amounts
to a kiss of death.
My name is Cyril Towbin. It is spelled T-o-w-b-i-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Would counsel accompanying the witness please
identify himself for the record.
Mr. Margolis. Ben Margolis.
Mr. Ta\':enner. When and where were you born, Mr. Towbin?
Mr. Towbin. I was born in New York City on August 9, 1897.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles?
Mr. Towbin. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in Los Angeles?
Mr. Towbin. Approximately 15 or 16 years. I came to Los Angeles
about the year of 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ?
Mr. Towbin. I am a musician.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in the practice of
your profession in Los Angeles?
Mr. Towbin. I have been engaged in the practice of my profession
in Los Angeles ever since I arrived, sir, which is about since 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the commitee, please, briefly, what
you formal educational training has been?
Mr. Towbin. I attended the public schools in New York City, and
from the earliest times that I can remember, thanks to the good direc-
tion of a principal of my public school, who was a great American —
he taught me to respect the Constitution of our Government and to
defend it at all times, which I intend to do here, sir.
I went to high schools in New York City. I had education privately
through scholarships with the greatest master of his time in New York
City, in music, privatelv and in an institution, the Institute of Musical
Art.
I guess I can call all of my life an education because I consider an
education the fact that when I was about 17, I organized and directed
one of the first community orchestras under the sponsorship of the
well-known politician in New York. My education continued when
I enlisted in the Army. And before I enlisted in the Army I had a
great education when I made a tour of the South and the East playing
for the wounded soldiers coming back, the first wounded coming back
from World War I. This was one of the greatest and most painful
educations I can think of. That is why I have dedicated my life ever
since that time to the cause of peace and cultural relations with all
peoples.
My education continued all during the time that I had the privilege
of teaching. T taught a class of blind pupils in New York at The
Lighthouse.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3863
Mr. Ta^tinnek. Where did you teach in New York?
Mr. TowBiN. At The Lighthouse. It is a blind school.
]\Ir. Tavenner. When did you teach there?
Mr. TowBiN. I can't remember that year. I was quite a young man
•at the time. But I liave taught a great many years in my life.
Mr. Tavenner. That was before you came to California ?
jNIr. TowBiN. Oh, yes.
Mr. Taxtinner. Mr. Towbin, during the course of the 1954 hear-
ings
(Tlie witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. TowBiN. I believe, Mr. Counselor, I didn't quite finish my back-
ground.
Mr. Tavexxer. Instead of answering my questions, you have gone
rather far afield. I asked you for your formal educational training.
You were giving that and a great manj^ other things, too.
If there is anytliing else regarding your formal educational train-
ing, we would be glad to hear it.
Mr. TowBix-. This all I consider as a part of my education, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. That wasn't what I asked you. Your statement
is not responsive to my question. I wanted to know where you at-
tended school in connection with your profession, or where you at-
tended school in connection with your general studies.
Mr. Towbin. I think the record will show that I did give you this
information.
Mr. Moulder. Ma}^ I ask you, did you say you were in the armed
services ?
Mr. TowBiN. Yes, sir; for a short time.
Mr. Moulder. How long?
]\Ir. Towbin. Well, it was a matter of a few months. It happens
1 enlisted just before the close of the war.
Mr. Sciierer. Which war?
Mr. TowBiN. The First World War.
Mr. Moulder. In what branch of the service were you in ?
Mr. TowBix^ I was in the heavy Coast Artillery at Brooklyn. No.
I am sorry. I will think of it in a moment. I will be glad to give
that to you.
]Mr. Moulder. We will give you an opportunity to state the extent
of your Army service.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. TowBiN. It was at Fort Hamilton, in New York.
Mr. Ta\^nner. In connection with the hearings conducted by this
committee in 1954, in Seattle, a person by the name of Elizabeth
Cohen appeared as a witness before this committee and identified
you as being a member of the Communist Party in this area.
You have also been identified to the committee by other persons
as having been a member of a branch of the Communist Party known,
or sometimes referred to, as the musicians branch.
Mr. Towbin. Did you say that happened in Seattle, sir?
Mr. Tavenner. No, I didn't. I said a witness, in connection with
that hearing, testified you had been a member of the Communist
Party here in Los Angeles.
Mr. TowBiN. Oh, I see.
Mr. Tavenner. This person herself having been a member of the
Communist Party and having left the Communist Party.
3864 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
And, as I was in the process of saying, the connnittee has other
information that you were a member of this branch of the Coimnunist
Party.
Is it true that you were a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. TowBiN. In reply to that question, Mr. Tavenner, I would like
to say the following : I have alwaj^s been brought up to consider that
an informer is the worst specimen of humanity. He has always been
detested, dishonored, and ostracized from a civilized community.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe the answer is not at all responsive to the
question.
Mr. Moulder. Counsel asked a question which would call for a
direct answer, and the committee will give you a reasonable oppor-
tunity and time to reply directly to it.
Mr. TowBiN. I am very glad to answer it.
Mr. Moulder. Respond to the question by answering it or decline
to answer the question.
Mr. TowBiN. Mr. Chairman, I am very glad to answer this question
because I want to reflect my feelings on the kind of testimony that is
being accepted by this committee.
Mr. Moulder. Let's put it this way : If you intend to answer the
question, and I am sure that is in accord with the feeling of the com-
mittee, I direct you to answer the question, and then you may make
any explanation you wish of your answer.
Mr. TowBiN. Will I be given that opportunity to express my opin-
ions about it after I have answered it ?
Mr. Moulder. After you have answered the question.
Mr. Scherer. If you answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. If you answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Not if he refuses to answer.
Mr. TowBiN. Wliat difference does that make, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. There is a lot of difference.
Mr. TowBix. I have the protection of the Constitution of the United
States that I may decline in my innocence to answer any such improper
question.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, just a minute.
Mr. TowBiN. I am very glad to answer this question if you will
allow me, sir.
Mr. Scherer. You said that Elizabeth Cohen was an informer, and
you began to attack this woman.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Whether she is an informer or whether she is not an
informer, did Elizabeth Cohen, when she testified before this com-
mittee under oath, lie about you when she said that you were a member
of the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. TowBiN. Which question is pending ?
Mr. Scherer. The one I just asked you is pending now.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. TowBiN. How about the first question ? Is that withdrawn, Mr.
Tavenner ?
Mr. Scherer. It is withdrawn temporarily.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Yes.
Mr.TowBiN. Will you repeat your question, Mr. Scherer?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3865
Mr. ScHERER. You attack Elizabeth Cohen, saying that she was an
informer. I am asking you whether or not the testimony given under
oath to this committee about you by this Elizabeth Cohen was true or
false?
Mr. TowBiN. Mr. Scherer, I think I am entitled to due process.
And will you be willing to produce this character, Miss Elizabeth
Cohen, for cross-questioning?
Mr. Scherer. I ask that the witness be directed to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. TowBiN. Mr. Scherer and gentlemen of this committee, if you
don't produce this witness or this informer for cross-questioning, I will
refuse to answer this question on the grounds that I refuse to dignify
the droppings of an informer by an answer. And I stand on the
grounds as guaranteed me by the first amendment, which provides
that I have freedom as an American citizen to associate with whom-
ever I please, to speak and think as I please, and also on the grounds
of the fifth amendment which provides that an innocent person need
not testify against himself.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, the real reason
Mr. TowBiisr. Don't you try to interrupt my answer. Don't put
words in my mouth. I know what I said.
The record stands, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. The real reason, isn't it. Witness — I am asking you
another question — that you refuse to say whether this woman who tes-
tified before this committee Avas lying is because if you do so you
would be committing perjury yourself? Isn't that the reason?
Mr. TowBix. Mr. Scherer, you heard my answer. The record
stands, and I will stand by my answer.
Mr. Scherer. I ask you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. What is the question pending now ?
Mr. Scherer. Will you read the question, please?
Mr. Moulder. I believe the question is in the nature of an argument.
Mr. Scherer. No.
"Wliat the question was, Mr. Chairman, is, Isn't it a fact ?
Will you read the question ?
( Wliereupon, the record was read by the reporter, as follows :)
The real reason, isn't it, Witness — I am asking you another question — that you
refuse to say whether this woman who testified before this committee was lying
is because if you do so you would be committing perjury yourself? Isn't that the
reason?
Mr. Scherer. A perfectly good question.
I ask, Mr. Chairman, you direct the witness to answer the question
because the witness gave one reason, and I don't believe that that is the
real reason. So I have a right to ask him. And he can answer
whether or not the reason he refuses to say whether Elizabeth Cohen
was lying is because he would be committing perjury if he answered
that question affirmatively.
Mr. Moulder. Very well. If there is no objection by any member
of the committee, the witness is directed to answer as requested by the
gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Scherer.
3866 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. TowBix. Mr. Scherer, isirt it true that if you had confidence in
jour so-called witness that you would produce her for cross-question-
ing?
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer tlie ques-
tion.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. TowBix. In answer to this second question, I consider it the
same question as the previous one in difterent words, and I have
already answered that, and I stand on my previous answer for the
grounds given.
Mr. Scherer. In other words, you feel that to answer my question
might tend to incriminate you. Is that right?
iNIr. TowBix. Mr. Scherer, you are resorting to the same kind of
tricky, slimy questioning that is trying to put me in a bad color here.
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. TowBiN. Don't try that with me, sir, because I know what rights
I have as an American citizen. I resent this.
Mr. Scherer. You may resent it, but I resent your attitude also.
Mr. TowBix. My attitude is perfectly respectful, as it should be, to
the Congress of the United States. I cannot speak for you personally,
sir.
Mr. Scherer. I appreciate that.
Mr. Moulder. May we proceed.
As I understand it, the witness has claimed the privilege under the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Jackson. I say again that I see no reason in pursuing any line
of questioning with these witnesses having to do with any alleged
activities in the Communist Party after they have indicated beyond
any peradventure of a doubt that they do not intend to divulge any
information in their possession.
I would respectfully suggest that with such witnesses that the mate-
rial upon which the interrogation is based be read into the record, that
an effort be made to determine the past or present membership of the
witness, and that, upon his declination to answer, lie be excused from
the stand.
We are taking up hour after hour with idle byplay, which is serving
absolutely no purpose, and I
Mr. To^^TJix. I concur in that.
Mr. Jacksox. I was about to say — I am sure you will agree with
me — that we are falling right in with a predetermined plan of the
witnesses to hamstring and delay the taking of testimony.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Jackson. To the extent that we lend ourselves to that program
I think that we are permitting them to hamstring the committee and
to destroy its utility. And I would respectfully suggest that these
tactics be frustrated by the committee. And, as far as I am concerned,
I have one question to ask the witness, which I will propound at this
time, and that is whether or not you are now, sir, or have ever been
a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. TowBiN. Mr. Jackson, as a member of our Congress, I think
you should know this is a highly improper question under the law
under which you are operating, supposed to be, and under the Consti-
tution of our United States.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3867
Mr. Jackson. Very well. I am very happy to have your opinion^
Now will you answer the question, sir ?
Mr. TowBiN. Since it is an improper question and it concerns an
organization which you have named and which has been arbitrarily
put on the so-called subversive list, I refuse to answer this question
on the grounds of the 1st amendment, as previously stated; on the
grounds of the 4th amendment, as previously stated ; on the grounds
of the 9th and 10th amendments, as I haven't stated but I will so state
now; and on the grounds of the 5th amendment, which needs no
further
Mr. Jackson. I would suggest that the witness be excused from the
stand.
Mr. TowBiN. Mr. Chairman, before I am excused, may I very re-
spectfully make one request ?
Mr. Moulder. May I ask you a question ?
Mr. TowBiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. As an American citizen, do you have any knowledge
or information concerning any subversive or disloyal activities on the
part of any person against our Government ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. TowBiN. Sir, that I may have the question clear, will you
please repeat it ? I want to be sure I have the question clear.
Mr. Moulder. It is a very simple question.
Do you have any knowledge or information concerning any sub-
versive activities or disloyalty committed or planned by any person
in this country against our Government or the United States of
America ?
Mr. TowBiN. Thank you, sir.
I do know one thing, that what may be considered subversive by
one person may be perfectly patriotic to another. I have heard on
this platform, in previous hearings, one of your own Members of
Congress who has — I am talking about something which I consider
subversive, sir.
Mr. Moulder. My question is a very simple one.
I am just asking you as a patriotic person. And any American
citizen would be proud to so state if he does have any such knowledge
or information. He woidd answer the question or he would say that
he doesn't have any such knowledge.
Mr. TowBiN. I am trying to give you an instance which I thought
was very subversive, sir, if I may be permitted to continue.
Mr. Jackson, it is directed against you, sir, if you would ge good
enough to listen to this.
Mr. Jackson. I would be happy. I have heard it before, but I
will listen to it again.
Mr. TowBiN. I have a direct quote that I happen to have before
me. I considered it considerably subversive, sir.
On Thursday, September 20, 1951, and this I have from the United
States Government transcript of these hearings, page 1680, part 5, and
I am quoting from your statement, sir :
If we didn't have the fifth amendment we probably would find out where a
lot of people are at work trying to destroy the rest of the Bill of Rights and
the rest of the Constitution of the United States.
3868 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. I concur in that statement.
Mr. TowBiisT. I wouldn't be a bit surprised on that.
Mr. ScHERER. You can quote me.
Mr. TowBiN. The reason I consider that subversive, sir-
Mr. Jackson. At least I have not been brought before any of the
tribunals of the United States Government. And if I am questioned
about that in the proper tribunal I would be very happy to cooperate
with any official body.
To that extent our attitudes differ very much.
Mr. TowBiN. I also remember, sir, being present when you denied
having made this statement.
Mr. Moulder. Do you know of any Communist or subversive activi-
ties or disloyalty to the United States or the United States Govern-
ment?
(The witness confers with his counseL)
Mr. TowBiN. You know that this is, again, a very important ques-
tion, Mr. Moulder, and I will not go into discussing any such matters
before this committee. AW my friends, relatives, colleagues through-
out this country and abroad know exactly how I feel on everything.
But, under compulsion, I refuse to answer this question on the grounds
previously stated, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. TowBiN. May I make one request, Mr. Chairman?
(Representative Donald L. Jackson withdrew from the hearing
room at this point.)
Mr. DoTLE. I understood the witness to plead the 10th amendment
to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. TowBiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Because it is so unusual that a person pleads that, I
thought I would just read it as this point and see if I was mistaken.
Mr. TowBiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle (reading) :
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor pro-
hibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively or to the
people.
Mr. TowBUsr. Exactly, sir.
That is precisely the sentence on which I depend.
Mr. Doyle. I have no further questions.
Mr. TowBUsr. May I make one request, sir?
Mr. Scherer. No. You didn't answer any questions.
Mr. Moulder. No questions.
Mr. TowBiN. I have just as much right to refuse as to answer, sir,
for your information.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. TowBiN. May I submit a statement for the record?
Mr. SciiERER. No, no, no.
Mr. TowBiN. Thank you for your courtesy, sir.
Mr. TavennI'^r. Helen Teverniti.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give
before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Teverniti. I do.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3869
TESTIMONY OF HELEN TEVERNITI, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BEN MABGOLIS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ?
Mrs. Teverniti. Helen Teverniti.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name, please?
Mrs. Teverniti. T-e-v-e-r-n-i-t-i.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by the same
counsel who appeared with the previous witness.
Where do you reside?
Mrs. Teverniti. Seattle, Wash.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you born ?
]Mrs. Teverniti. Red Oak, Iowa.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Seattle ?
Mrs. Teverniti. 32 years.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession or occupation?
Mrs. Teverniti. I am a housewife and also a musician.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged, commercially, in
the musical profession in Seattle?
Mrs. Teverniti. It has been very casual, I would say 15 years.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?
Mrs. Teverniti. I attended public schools right on through high
school, had 1 year at the University of Washington, 1938, and had
private training on my instrument, the piano, from the time I was
41/^ on. I think that covers it.
Mr. Tavenner. Were j^ou on the faculty of the Pacific Northwest
Labor School in the spring of 1947 ?
Mrs. Teverniti. I believe that is an organization that has been
cited as a Communist-front organization.
I shall certainly plead my privilege under the first and fifth amend-
ments in refusing to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. You recall that Mrs. Barbara Hartle gave testi-
mony to the committee regarding that school; do you not?
Mrs. Teverniti. I believe that was the case.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it true that Mrs. Hartle was the No. 2 person in
the Communist Party in the area of Seattle at the time she was prose-
cuted as one of those indicted under the Smith Act in Seattle in
1953 or 1954?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Teverniti. I should certainly think I should refuse to answer
that question on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. What counsel says is true. So let's go on.
Mr. Ta^^nner, Mrs. Hartle testified in the course of that hearing
in Seattle that she knew you as a member of one of the professional
branches of the north King County area of the Communist Party and
connected with cultural work of the Communist Party.
Was her testimony, insofar as it related to you, truthful?
Mrs. Teverniti. It is obvious that I will refuse to answer that
question and any similar questions on the grounds previously stated,
]\Ir. Jackson. Do you decline to answer ? It may be obvious, but
I think we should have it a little more specific.
3870 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mrs. Teverniti. Yes, I certainly do decline.
Mr. Taa^nner. Did you engage in any Communist Party teacliings;
in any field, whether music or otherwise, while living in Seattle?
Mrs. TE^^RNITI. I am sure that this would come under the same
category of questions, and I refuse to answer on the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Tevermti. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mrs. Teverniti. I refuse to answer that question also on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. 'Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
The next witness, please.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Elias.
Mr. Moulder. Will you be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Elias. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF LEWIS J. ELIAS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Elias. My name is Lewis J. Elias.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell your first name ?
Mr. Elias. The first name is L-e-w-i-s.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Elias, it is the practice of the committee to advise
all witnesses that they have the right to have counsel present with them
if they so desire, and the right to consult with counsel at any time
during the course of their testimony.
Mr. Elias. I understand, sir. I have thought it over in my own
mind, and I don't feel that I have need for counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. By that, do you mean that you propose to tell the
committee all that you know regarding Communist Party activities ?
Mr. Elias. I propose to tell the truth as far as I can remember it.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ?
Mr. Elias. I am a musician, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you reside in Los Angeles?
Mr. Elias. That is right, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Elias. I was born in 1922 in Boston, Mass.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you move to California?
Mr. Er.iAS. I was 2 years old when I came here.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you toll the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3871
Mr. Ell\s. I graduated from high school here.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged professionally as
a musician
Mr. Elias. I would say I possibly started professionally when I was
about 15 years old.
Mr. Tavennek. Has your employment in that field been confined to
the area of Los Angeles ?
Mr. Elias. Only until the last about T years. Since that time I have
done some traveling outside of Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner, Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time during the practice of your profession as a musician ?
Mr. Elias. That would be very approximate, sir. I can't remember
the exact dates. Probably about the middle of 1946 to the end of 1947.
I don't think I was in 1948. If I was I might have attended a very
few meetings, but I doubt it.
Mr. Tavenner. So your membership was confined to that period?
Mr. Elias. That is right, sir, as far as approximate is concerned.
Mr. Tavennek. Will you tell the committee briefly the circumstances
under which you became a member ?
Mr. Elias. When I got out of the Army I started working in the
motion picture studios.
Mr. Tavennek. During what period were you serving in the Armed
Forces ?
Mr. Elias. It was 3% years. Do you want to know the exact years ?
Mr. Tavennek. About when did you return from the service ?
Mr. Elias. 1945, 1 think ; about June,
Mr. Tavennek. Very well. Proceed, please.
Mr. Elias. Working at that time fairly extensively in the motion-
picture studios, I was struck that there was a certain economic crisis
in the musicians' affairs. There were many reasons for that, but it
was very obvious to me. I saw many older musicians, very well re-
spected, who had difficulty finding jobs. It was sort of a goal of mine,
a very strong goal, to try to improve that in any way possible.
There was an organization called the Union Activities Committee.
I understood the purposes of that organization were to devise ways
of improving the economic situation of musicians in any way possible.
When I heard about it, it had a great appeal to me, and I felt that
I should join that organization.
I attended all their meetings. I was very sincere in the objectives
of that organization.
Around the middle of 1946 I w\as at a friend's house, and we had
quite a long conversation. The gist of it was his recognition of my
desires to help the music situation, to help other musicians, and also
to help myself in that same respect.
He informed me that the people who were doing this kind of work
to help musicians were Communists, that they knew how to help the
musicians, and they seemed to be the only people who cared about
helping the musicians.
There was quite a long conversation, but that was the major point.
Mr. Moulder. Did you name this person ?
Mr. Elias. His name was Edgar Lustgarten.
Mr. Tavennek. Will you spell that name, please, sir.
3872 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Elias. L-u-s-t-g-a-r-t-e-n.
He felt because of my beliefs in that matter that I should join the
musicians branch of the Communist Party to further that. I remem-
ber quite vividly that conversation. I remember what I said, that
I couldn't join the Communist Party because I knew about commu-
nism, 1 didn't believe in it, and I could never be a Communist.
But he informed me that that really had no bearing. If I really
wanted to accomplish what I felt — this was the only way to do it.
In the end his argument swayed me, and I was swayed to that. His
argument swayed me, and I said I would join.
Sir. Moulder. Was he, too, a musician ?
Mr. ErjAS. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You say he told you, in order to persuade you to
get into the Communist Party, that it didn't make any difference
whether or not you were a dedicated Communist?
Mr. Elias. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. After you were in the Cdhimunist Party, did you
find any effort was being made to make a dedicated Communist out
of you?
Mr. Elias. Eventually, yes.
May I go into that when I discuss something else? Is that all
right?
Mr. Tavenner. Quite all right.
Mr. Elias. I f oimd out in the very first meeting that they were try-
ing to make a mass party out of the Communist Party, trying to re-
cruit as many people as j^ossible. And the expression "working on
people" was bandied around quite a bit at that first meeting.
So in the very begining there was not too much bearing on actual
communism, but on trying to get as many people as possible into the
party.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time that you entered this group of the Com-
munist Party, how many persons in your group do you think were ac-
tively engaged in the work of the Communist Party.
Mr. Elias. That is a difficult question to answer because there were
various numbers at the meetings. I could estimate there were about
50, but that is just an estimation. I never saw that many in one par-
ticular group.
Mr. Tavenner. 'Wliat was the average attendance at the meetings
you attended?
Mr. Elias. It could have been about 25 people.
Mr. Tavenner. But not always the same people?
Mr. Elias. No : that is true. Sometimes there were less. And as
time went on it got to be a great deal less; maybe just 10 people.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what activities
you observed in the Communist Party after you became a member of
it. What work were thev principally engaged in at that time in 1946
and 1947?
Mr. Elias. There comes to me one specific thing. That was in the
period of the studio strike and the
Mr. Tavenner. Was that tlie Conference of Studio Unions? Is
that the strike to which you are referring?
Mr. Elias. That was one union against the International Alliance
of Stage Employees (lATSE).
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3873
I recall that the Coimniinist Party was fully in back of the Con-
ference of Studio Unions at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you know that ?
Mr, Elias. Probably about twice when I was there, an outside mem-
ber of the Communist Party — by that I mean someone not a musician,
but a man who Avas active in the strike, and a member of the Communist
Party came to the musicians branch and lectured and discussed this
strike, and asked the musicians to support the accomplishments of
studio unions in every way possible.
(Representative Morgan M, Moulder left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Tavenner. Who was that individual ?
Mr. Eltas. His name was Paul Perlin.
Mr. Tavenner. Paul Perlin ?
Mr. Elias. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Paul Perlin was subpenaed before this committee
about 2 years ago here in Los Angeles, and he refused to answer any
material questions, relying upon the fifth amendment as the reason for
refusal.
Was the Conference of Studio Unions under the leadership of
Herbert Sorrel] ?
Mr. Elias. Yes. That is what I recall, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you find when you joined this group of the
Communist Party, the musicians branch, that there were other persons
who had Avorked with yow in tlie Union Activities Committee?
Mr. Elias. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. And who were members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Elias. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner, Who were those individuals?
Mr. Elias. I am trying to remember as best I can.
I remember at the beginning Mischa Altman was active in that.
Jack Pepper, Seymour Sheklow, Jean Musick.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that last name?
Mr. Elias. Jean Musick.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell it?
Mr. Elias, I believe it is M-u-s-i-c-k,
Rubin Decker, Sam Fordis, There were others, but I can't specifi-
cally remember if they were in that gi'oup or not,
Mr. Tavenner. Suppose at this time you give us tlie names of all
the persons that you can recall who were members of the musicians
branch in addition to those you just named.
JVIr. Elias. Outside of what I named, Henry Roth and his wife,
George Sandell and hiswife,
Mr, Ta\tenner, Do you know the first names of the wives of the two
persons you mentioned ?
Mr, Elias, It was Esther Roth and Beatrice Sandell.
Victor Gottlieb.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell it ?
Mr. Elias. G-o-t-t-l-i-e-b. And his wife, Eiidice Shapiro. Manuel
Compinsky, C-o-m-p-i-n-s-k-y, and his wife Dorothy. George Kast,
Sidney Greene, Rubin Decker, Sam Fordis, Seymour Sheklow, Ta-
mara, T-a-m-a-r-a Plovey, H-o-v-e-y. Sam Albert, Joe Pass, Wayne
Ronka, Anita Short, Joe Eger, E-g-e-r. Joseph DiFiore, D-i-F-i-o-r-e.
3874 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Louis Kievman, K-i-e-v-m-a-n. Jean Musick — that is one I already
mentioned. Leonard Selic, S-e-1-i-c. Don Christlieb and his wife,
Pearl. Cyril Towbin, Herbert Offner, Kalman Bloch and his wife.
I don't know her name.
Larry Goldman I saw one or two times. Betty Sno;ar, Morris
Browda, B-r-o-w-d-a. I believe the first name is Milton, Kestenbaum.
Lydia Marcus, Paul Powell, Alex Walden. And just before I left
the party I saw Philip Goldberg, Morris Boltuch, B-o-l-t-u-c-h.
Mr. Tavennee. When you say you saw them what do you mean?
Mr. Elias. I mean at party meetings.
Mr. Jackson. Closed Communist Party meetings?
Mr. Elias. That is correct, sir.
There was another person that I saw once, but I must say the
reason he was there is because he left the party and he came there
to give his reasons for leaving. His name was Milton Feher, F-e-h-e-r.
I saw Paul — No, I am not sure of his first name. His last name
is Dessau ; something like that. D-e-s-s-a-u. He is now in East Berlin.
He is a composer.
Mr. Tavenner. In East Berlin?
Mr. Elias. As a composer.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, we understand that he ha s renounced
his American citizenship.
Mr. Ellas. There might be some other peo))le, but I can't recall
them right now.
Mr. Tavenner. Are all of these individuals whom you have men-
tioned persons known by you to be members of the Communist Party,
or to have been members of the Communist Party?
Mr. Elias. That is correct.
Some of them attended very irregularly. I am not discussing any-
thing about what they did or anything, but I have seen them m the
closed meetings.
Mr. ScHERER. What was the name of the person identified by the
witness who has since renounced his American citizenship ?
Mr. Tavenner. Paul Dessau, D-e-s-s-a-u, now in the Eastern Zone
of Germany.
Mr. ScHERER. He is at least being forthright.
Mr. Jackson. Do you know whether any of the individuals you
named have left the party subsequently or are no longer members of
the Communist Party?
Mr. Elias. There is really no way of my knowing that, sir.
Mr. Jackson. I thought perhaps you might have known some of
them on a personal basis and that you have seen them since.
Mr. Elias. In my own case, when I left the party I made a definite
attempt to actually try to forget my past association, and I have been
out of town quite a lot, which was very good for me in that respect. I
haven't associated with these people too much.
Mr. Tavenner. During the period of time that you were in the
Communist Party did you learn whether it was interested in trying
to capture any of the positions of leadership in your union ?
Mr. Elias. It was definitely against the administration, and it
would liked to have either some of its own people in office, but prob-
ably, preferably, to have other people whom they felt would be
friendly. I didn't see that ever happen.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3875
Mr. Tavenner. You say then that it was not successful insofar as
gaining any control over your local union was concerned?
Mr. Eltas. I know of no officer of the union who was a member
or even close to it.
Mr. Tavenner. You said you were in the Communist Party up until
during the year 1947.
Mr. Elias. Approximately, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Why did you leave the Communist Party?
Mr. Elias. Well, many things.
One of the most oppressive things that I have ever gone through
in my life was in the Communist Party. There was complete thought
control in that party.
When I first became a member everything that I knew from before
seemed to just be taken away from me.
The heritage of freedom of thought, in my opinion, is the most
glorious thing about this country, and I certainly, up to that time
and since that time, have used that very appreciatively.
But I found in the Communist Party that there was only one goal
or, rather, one action, and you had to follow that action. If you
didn't you were either a Fascist or a Trotsky ite or just plain stupid.
It was something I couldn't live with at all because I like to express
my thoughts, and I like to hear all various opinions on every subject.
I think there is also something that is of great import to me that
is dangerous. There is blind obedience to the dictates of a magazine
called the Political Affairs, I believe, that comes out about once a
month. I don't know if it does now or not. But that comes from the
headquarters of the Communist Party.
I never heard any criticism of any of the articles in that magazine.
And it seemed to be the duty of the Communist to accomplish the ends
which this magazine wanted done.
The writings of that magazine were not only from American Com-
munists but they were from other countries — China and so on.
It was very evident to me from when I first joined the Communist
Party that there was really no respect at all for the individual, not
only outside of the party but inside of the party.
This, too, is one of the most important things in our American
democracy, individual freedom and protection of other people.
There was also a personal thing I resented very much.
I might say this :
I am primarily interested in music and the entertainment industry.
So I was interested in reading what the parj:y had to say about books,
motion pictures, and so on. And I found that the criticism would be
on an ideological basis. I never went for that.
I used my own opinion, and sometimes I would mention to somebody
else I liked a certain motion picture, and they would say no, and they
will give me the same story that I just read in one of the Communist
organs.
There was tremendous scorn of liberal people, and a contempt for
reformers, although they would use people as much as they could. I
felt that personally, because at that time I guess I thought of myself
as a reformer.
I think the main things is that they like to get people working for
their ends, but they must control what is being done. In a sense I think
that is why it is doomed to failure.
3876 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
They just about killed the liberal movement iii this country because
of the infiltration. To me, that is a cardinal sin.
But I think the main specific thing why I left was that at one meet-
ing Mischa Altman said, "The good and worth of any act or action that
an individual or group of Communists does is if it aids or enhances
socialism."
I realized fully that that was his morality and possibly the morality
of the Communist Party. That was never my morality.
Mr. Tavenner. By that do you mean that, regardless of the means,
it was the end that justified it?
Mr. Elias. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that what you mean ?
Mr. Elias. Yes.
For myself that was a long road from wanting to help the economic
situation of musicians, to a point where the only thing that is good
is if it benefits socialism.
I left the party. I didn't bother to resign officially.
I guess that is about it.
Mr. Jackson. Was any effort made subsequent to your departure
to rerecruit you into the party?
Mr. Elias. Many of the party members knew my dissatisfaction
and dislike of the methods used and the objectives, so I dichi't find
that.
I did find incidents which were a little disturbing.
Mr. Doyle (presiding). Do you have further questions, Mr,
Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Did your associate members in the Communist Party at times refer
to you as a Fascist?
Mr. Elias. There was a specific incident. I guess it was a couple
of years after I left. I was called by a member of the American
Legion post in the musicians' union, and they were starting a sym-
phony orchestra. The person told me what music was going to be
played and who the conductor was, and I thought I would like to come
down and play.
I went to this rehearsal. Subsequently my name was printed in
the union magazine. There was a small article about that. Later I
met a leading figure in the Communist Part}''. I mean I met him in
a market. And he said, "I saw your name, that you play in this
American Legion orchestra. I didn't knoAv that you turned Nazi."
Mr. Tavenner. That individual then was more interested in the
political implications than he was in music for art's sake, was he not?
Mr, Elias. Yes. There were really no political implications of that
rehearsal, but I guess he thought there were.
I found many times — in fact, always — that the leading figures
would never discuss issues with you, or even argue with you or debate
with you. If you disagreed with them, as I said, you are considered
either dumb or anti-Coinmunist.
I was even told once when I was in the party — I managed to have
a disagreement with Mischa Altman, and, instead of enlightening me
possibly or giving me reasons, he just said, "Well, you're going to
end up in a concentration camp."
Mr. DoYu::. Said what?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3877
Mr. Elias. He said, "You're just going to end up in a concentra-
tion camp."
Mr. SciiERER. Is that when you left the Communist Party ?
Mr. Elias. When I was in the party and disagreed with him.
Mr. ScHERER. You hadn't even left?
Mr. Elias. That is right,
Mr. Ta^'exner. Who was that individual who made the comment
you described as to your playing in the American Legion band ?
Mr. Elias. That was Henry Roth.
Mr. ScHERER. Henry Roth, the same witness who was on the
stand here this morning?
Mr. Elias. I wasn't here this morning, sir.
Mr. SciiEKER. I think he is still back here.
Is Roth still here ? Yes ; he is in the back row.
Stand up. Is that the man ?
Mr. RoTii. He's a liar, for the record.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, just a minute.
I ask that we excuse this witness for a minute, and call Mr. Roth
and let him repeat under oath that this man is telling a lie.
Come on up, Mr. Roth.
Mr. DoTLE. We will recess the testimony of the present witness, Mr.
Elias, and call Mr. Roth.
(Witness temporarily excused.)
Mr. Doyle. Are you ready, Mr. Roth, to come under oath again ?
Mr. RoTii. My attorney isn't here.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Marshall has spoken to you. He is an attorney
at the bar.
Mr. Roth. I prefer to wait for my own.
Mr. Doyle. Will you call and get him here where you can take the
oath again? As long as you have called this man a liar in public, in
the hearing room, we Avould like to have you put under oath again,
Mr. SciiERER. I say we should call him forthwith. We only want
to ask him one question. Let him demonstrate it.
Mr. Roth. I want my counsel, and I prefer to have him,
Mr, DoYLE, Will you come forward just a minute, please. I recog-
nize your right of counsel. I am not trying to force you to testify
without your counsel. But you are being advised by Attorney Mar-
shall. So I suppose that is all right.
Mr. Roth. I would prefer to wait for my own attorney.
Mr. SciiERER. Let him wait for his own attorney.
Mr. Doyle. Of course, we always favor a witness having counsel.
When do you want to testify under oath before this committee
again ?
Mr. Roth, As soon as my attorney comes into the room I will be
happy to,
Mr, Doyle, Who is your attorney ?
Mr. Roth. Mr. Margolis,
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Margolis was here. Is he due here with other
clients ?
Mr. Tavenner. I don't know.
Mr. Jackson, Mr. Chairman, may I make a suggestion, that if Mr.
Margolis has not reappeared during the balance of the afternoon that
Mr. Roth be resubpenaed to appear here tomorrow morning with his
counsel.
3878 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Doyle, Will you be here tomorrow morning at 9 : 30, Mr. Roth ?
Mr. Roth. I would prefer to do it today if my attorney
Mr. Jackson. I say if he does not show up.
Mr. Roth. If he doesn't come, may I then have a choice of another
attorney ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, indeed.
But, at any rate, Mr. Roth, you are under order to be here tomorrow
morning, if Mr. Margolis doesn't appear this afternoon.
We always favor giving anyone who wants to contradict a state-
ment made under oath, a chance to go under oath himself and con-
tradict it.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Elias, will you come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Elias, will you please take the stand again.
TESTIMONY OF LEWIS ELIAS— Resumed
Mr. Elias. May I say something, sir ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Elias. I don't know what I was just called when he walked by.
I expect to be called a lot of things by some people.
Mr. Scherer. Before we go any further, may I interrupt?
A few minutes ago in your testimony you identified Henry Roth
as a member of the Communist Party ; did you not ?
Mr. Elias. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. You were under oath when you identified him ?
Mr. Elias. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. You also identified Cyril Towbin as a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Elias. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Scherer. And Sam Fordis also ?
Mr. Elias. That is right, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I think I would want to call Mr. Cyril Towbin back
also, Mr. Chairman, at a later date because he was here this morning,
and he was the witness who made such disparaging remarks about
Elizabeth Cohen who had identified him in Seattle. Now we have
this gentleman here, and Mr. Towbin is in the room. And I would
like to have him now deny this man's testimony, too.
Mr. Tavenner. I think lie is still here.
Mr. Doyle. We are glad to offer you, Mr. Towbin, the opportunity
to come and be under oath and deny the witness' testimony.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left from the hearing room at
this point. )
Mr. Doyle. Some of you gentlemen have hollered about never
having a chance to answer. Here's your chance, Mr. Towbin.
Mr. Scherer. I think we can subpena him.
Mr. Towbin. Mr. Doyle, I simply say my attorney is not here at
present.
I again will repeat what I said imder oath, that I would refuse to
dignify the droppings of an informer under any circumstances.
Mr. "Doyle. All right.
Is that your answer to my invitation to you to take the stand and go
under oath ?
Mr. Towbin. I am glad to testify under oath to anything that is
honest and honorable as an American citizen, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3879
Mr. Doyle. You have heard this gentleman's testimony.
Mr. ScHERER. I think we will subpena him tomorrow now. He is
the witness who complained this morning, when you read Elizabeth
Cohen's testimony.
Mr. TowBiN. You refused to produce this witness for cross-ques-
tioning. And I can have my rights as an American citizen, too, as
well as you can.
Mr. Doyle. We have a witness right here on the stand.
Mr. ScHERER. I wanted to show the fallaciousness of his conten-
tions.
Mr. Doyle. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. You had not quite completed your statement.
Mr. Elias. Of course, maybe this is out of order, but
Mr. Scherer. I'm sorry I interrupted, but I wanted to demonstrate
here what we are up against and the hollowness and fraud that is
perpetrated by these individuals when they attack the so-called in-
lormers. They don't dare get on the stand and deny the testimony
under oath because they would obviously be guilty of perjury. Then
they come and parade about innocence.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Doyle. All right, Mr. Elias. Are you prepared to proceed
further ?
Mr, Elias. I wasn't going to go into all of this. It is personal.
But, after what happened, I would like to.
Mr. Doyle. All right.
Mr. Elias. I have had a great heritage in my life — religion, and a
heritage of this great country ; training, parents and teachers. I have
tried to use it to the best that I could all my life. There was a certain
period where I didn't. There was something personal in that.
The year before I joined the Communist Party I had a complete
nervous breakdown, and it took me a few years to really get back on
my feet, though I got back. Thank God I am on my feet, I think,
better than before.
I can only do and say according to my conscience; not what any-
body tells me. I can only do and say what is right for my country
and the people who have trained me to be a good citizen and a good
person.
When I left the Communist Party I completely disassociated myself
from it. I was fortunate enough to get away from these people, make
friends for the first time in my life, not on the basis if they were a
Democrat or a Republican or anything, but the basis of a person.
But even then I found it wasn't enough. There was something
inside of me that bothered me. And I knew what it was. I felt that
it would be in an emergency or war; I didn't want one American
to waste his time bothering if I am loyal or not because I kno^Y I am.
For that reason I went to the Federal Bureau of Investigation be-
fore all this happened.
Some of these people, I know, are not revolutionaries. They are
misguided, misled, frustrated individuals. If they could just think
themselves without benefit of the people sitting next to tbem and get-
ting together, I wish they would do what I consider the right thing.
I have nothing against any person, but I have everything against
the Communist Party.
3880 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Ta\t2nner. I have no further qusstions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. No. Mr. Chairman, I have no questions, except to
observe again how unfortunate it is that we do not have the facility
to put the words of witnesses before the people of the community, as
I am very much impressed by the sincerity of the witness.
I think that those of us wlio serve on the committee realize what
an ordeal psychologically, emotionally, it is to break with the party,
witli associates, people ^\'it]i vrhom one has been on very close terms.
We realize what an ordeal it is to come before the committee and
to tell this committee and the Congress of the American people of
one's experiences in the Communist Party. I sometimes think it
takes a considerably greater degree of courage to sit there in the almost
audible scorn which is emanating from certain quarters of the room
and to be frank and complete in your testimony in an effort to help
us in the job Ave are trying to do.
I want to express my appreciation to the witness and thank him
on behalf of the House of Representatives, if I may.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I just wanted to point out. Witness, that you came
here and answered all the questions, and I do not think that there is
any fairminclecl person in this room who does not believe that you
absolutely told the truth under oath.
I do not think there is a fairminded person in this room who does
not believe that when he identified Sam Fordis, Heiiry Roth and
Cyril To whin as members of the Communist Paily he was telling
the truth because those men were on the stand this morning, and
all three of them refused to say whether or not they were members of
the Communist Party. Thej^ won't deny it now.
Mr. Jackson. May I ask one more question ?
Mr. DoYLE. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. In order to lay aside the paid-informer charge, with
which you are familiar and which you will probably hear more of in
the columns of the Daily People's World and elsewhere, were you
offered any emolument, any reward, anything in order to make pos-
sible your testimony here today?
Mr. Elias. I would like to answer that question. I am certainly
glad you asked me because I am under oath now.
To me, wlien I left the offices of the Federal Bureau of Investiga-
tion, and when I am leaving here, I feel somewliat that I have re-
gained the precious citizenship which I kind of felt like I had lost.
That is a great reward, and I really don't care what anybody calls me.
Mr. ScTiERER. You should not worry about that. You have com-
pany in the committee.
Mr. Elias. Thank you.
Mr. Scherer. We do not worry about it either.
Mr. Do^-LE. jSIay I ask, for the record, JSIr. Elias, I have never
spoken with you in my life, have I ? We have never met ?
Mr. Eltas'. No, sir.
- Mr. DoYLE. Tliat is, before this incident.
I want to ask you : Directly or indirectly, have you been offered any
compensation of any sort by any person to testifv as you have here
todav?
COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3881
Mr. Elias. I haven't been offered any compensation of any kind.
Mr. DoYLJi:. Or any promise of any sort?
Mr. Elias. I have had no promises of any kind of anything, or in
the future.
Mr. Doyle. I have conferred with my colleagues, and, as acting
chairman of this subcommittee, I am going to continue you under the
power of the subpena.
Mr. Elias. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. If anyone tries to interfere with you, let Uncle Sam
know.
Mr. Elias. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Doyle. We will handle it.
And, in view of the fact that I offered these two gentlemen, one of
\v(hom called you a liar, an opportunity to testify again will you hold
yourself subject to Mr. Tavenner's call?
Mr. Elias. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. We may want you to take the stand again after they do,
if they do. We want you here to hear what they say, if they say any-
thing.
Mr. Elias. All right, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Any other questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Taveni^er. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Mr. Elias.
Mr. Elias. May I leave?
Mr. Doyle. You are excused.
Mr. Tavenker. This would be a convenient place for a break, if
you want a recess.
Mr. Doyle. We will recess for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken, there being present Repre-
sentatives Doyle, Jackson, and Scherer.)
(The committee was reconvened upon the expiration of the recess,
there being present Representatives Doyle (presiding), Jackson, and
Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will reconvene, please.
May the record show that 3 members of the subcommittee of 4 are
present.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Leonard Dahlsten.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr. Dahlsten. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF LEONARD H. DAHLSTEN, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, EDWAKD C. MADDOX
Mr. Ta\"enner. Will you state your name, please.
Mr. Dahlsten. My name is Leonard Dahlsten.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify himself for the record.
Mr. Maddox. Edward C. Maddox.
Mr. Tavenner. "V^^ien and where were you born, Mr. Dahlsten?
Mr. Dahlsten. I was born on a farm in Nebraska in 1910.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
3882 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Dahlsten. I reside in Los Angeles.
Mr, Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles?
Mr. Dahlsten. I have lived in Los Angeles about 15, 16 years.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession or occupation?
Mr. Dahlsten. I am a musician ; at least up until now. I suppose
I am blacklisted as of now. But I have made my living as a musician
for all my life.
Mr. Tavenner. During the period that you were making your living
as a musician, were you a member of the (Communist Party?
Mr. Dahlsten. I decline to answer that question for the following
reasons :
Number 1, 1 do not believe this committee has the power to in^•e.sti-
gate in this area where no legislation is possible or contemplated.
Under the first amendment of the Constitution every citizen of this
country is guaranteed the right of freedom of speech.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Maddox, we don't have time — we wish we did — to
hear your speech. And so I am going to limit you to giving your
legal reasons.
Mr. Dahlsten. Mr. Doyle, may I ask
Mr. Doyle. That is all the time you are going to have. So let's make
it clear and have an understanding.
You give your legal reasons and we will give you reasonable time,
but we are not going to give you time to make a speech to us.
Mr. Maddox. You addressed yourself to Mr. Maddox. Do you
mean
Mr. Doyle. I beg your pardon. I meant Mr. Dahlsten, the wit-
ness. I didn't mean Mr. Maddox. Thank you.
Mr. Dahlsten. Further, I believe that the duties of this committee
are purely legislative, but they have taken on a punitive nature.
Mr. Doyle. You heard what I said, Mr. Dahlstein, and I mean it.
We ask your cooperation.
I will be reasonable. You have your constitutional rights, and
plead them if you want to plead them.
But we are not going to give you time to tirade against the com-
mittee.
Please cooperate.
Mr. Dahlsten. I certainly wish to cooperate to that extent. I am
not running for reelection in Congress in the district.
Mr. Jackson. Why don't you try ?
Mr. Dahlsten. I might do that.
Mr. Jackson. I think it would be an excellent idea.
Mr. Doyle. We will have put out of the room anyone who makes an
outburst, regardless of whether it is favorable or unfavorable.
Proceed, Mr. Dahlsten, or we will have to excuse you from the chair
if you are not ready to answer or to decline to answer on your legal
reasons.
I am sorry to disappoint you, not giving you time to make a si^eech.
Mr. Dahlsten. Under the first amendment, sir
Mr. Doyle. You are entitled to plead it. Do you plead it ?
Mr. Dahlsten. I plead the first amendment, but may I explain?
Mr. Doyle. No. We know what the first amendment is. The Su-
preme (Jourt has explained it.
Mr. Dahlsten. Being a musician, the first amendment is something
special to me.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3883
Mr. Doyle. It doesn't mean anything different to you than to any
other American citizen.
Mr. DAiiLSTEisr. Freedom of expression of a musician is an essential
thing. Without freedom of expression there would be no music, there
would be no art, no culture.
JNIr. DoTLE. We recognize that amendment as you do.
Do you plead the first amendment?
Mr. Dahlsten. I say I do plead the first amendment.
Mr. Doyle. Give any other legal reason you feel you have.
Mr. Dahlsten. I plead the first amendment and I also plead the
amendment which has been in the Constitution since the Bill of Eights
was written, which was put there for
Mr. Doyle. Wliich amendment is it, please ?
Mr. Dahlsten. A specific purj^ose. I will identify it.
Mr. Doyle. Identify it.
Mr. Dahlsten. As a union man, this amendment has a particular
meaning because in the beginning of the trade-union movement this
amendment was used as a protection when trade unions were consid-
ered subversive. This amendment was considered as a protection
against the stool pigeons who were trying to destroy the unions.
Mr. Doyle. What amendment do you intend to plead ?
Plead it if you are going to.
]Mr. Dahlsten. That, sir, is the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Are j^ou now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dahlsten. Now, INIr. Tavenner, you know better than to ask
me tliat question. I have stated, at the outset, that I will not answer
that question from the previously
Mr. Tavenner. There have been a great many people who have
refused to answer questions on the basis of the fifth amendment on
what had occurred in earlier dates, but who frankly told the commit-
tee tliey are not now members of the Communist Party in the case
where that is true. So I want to give you that opportunity.
Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dahlsten. I will not give up 1 inch of my rights as an Ameri-
can citizen under the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Doyle. Any other questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. SoHERER. I think there should be a direction to answer the
question.
Mr. Jackson. As a matter of information, have you, in answer to
the counsel's last question, refused to answer on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments?
Mr. Dahlsten. I think it is very clear that I have refused to answer
that question on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Jackson. You had better make it abundantly clear by so
stating.
Mr. Dahlsten. I may answer
Mr. Jackson. Just once more.
Mr. Dahlsten. I refuse to answer the question on the basis of the
first and fifth amendments. May I include the fourth, the ninth, and
the tenth?
Mr. Jackson. As far as I am concerned, you may include all of them
that have not been repealed.
Mr. Doyle. The 1st, 5th, 4th, 9th, and 10th.
3884 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a petition of the-
Independent Progressive Party of California which has been marked
for identification purposes only as "Dahlsten Exhibit No. 1." Will you
examine the affidavit appearing at the end of it, and state whether or
not the name appearing there was written by you ?
(Document lianded to the witness and his counsel.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Dahlsten. I shall refuse to answer that question upon the
grounds previously stated, and I furthermore say that if you want
to not waste time, any question of this nature I will continue to refuse
to answer on those two specific grounds, the first and the fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Doyle. May it be understood that when the witness refuses to
answer on constitutional grounds that it is on all of the grounds already
stated.
As counsel, is that acceptable, Mr. Maddox ^
Mr. Maddox. Yes; if it is on constitutional grounds it is agreeable.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document referred to above,
marked "Dahlsten Exhibit No. 1" in evidence.
Mr. Doyle. It is so ordered.
(This exhibit is similar to Roth exhibit No. 2, p. 8860, and will not be
reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the committee's rec-
ords.)
Mr. Tavenner. At the end of the petition there is an affidavit, Mr.
Chairman, over the name of Leonard H. Dahlsten, in which it was
stated, uncler oath, on the 29th day of December, 1947, that he was the
person who solicited the signatures to this document.
I now hand you a photostatic copy of a document marked for identi-
fication only as "Dahlsten Exhibit No. 2" which is an Affidavit of Reg-
istration under date of the 6tli day of April 1948, in which it is de-
clared that Leonard H. Dahlsten intends to affiliate Avitli the Independ-
ent Party. Will you look at the signature appearing there and state
whether or not it is your signature ?
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
Mr. Dahlsitsn. This is merely a duplication. I decline to answer
that question on the previously stated grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence, as "Dahl-
sten Exhibit No. 2."
Mr. Doyle. It is so received and so marked.
(This document is similar to Roth exhibit No. 1, p. 3859, and will not
be reproduced in the printed record. It is on file in the committee's
records.)
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Jackion?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. ScuERER. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Mr. Margolis. I received a telephone call that you wanted Mr. Roth
back on the stand, and v/ant to advise you that, pursuant to that tele-
phone call, I am here.
Mr. Doyle. Have you had the benefit, Mr. Margolis, of consulta-
tion with your client?
Mr. Margolis. I have had the benefit of consultation, and, if you
wish to proceed, we are ready to proceed.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3885
Mr. Tavenner. We will recall him.
Mr. Margolis. Do you wish to proceed at this time?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. DoYi.E. Will you please raise your right hand, Mr. Roth.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the tiTith, so hel]) you God ?
Mr. Roth. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY ROTH, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BEN MARGOLIS— Resumed
Mr, DoTLE. May the record show that Mr. Roth, the witness earlier
in the day, is again a witness under oath, at his request, and that he is
accompanied by counsel, Mr. Margolis, who was counsel for him
earlier in the day.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Roth, a few minutes ago while you were in the
hearing room, Mr. Lewis Elias, a witness under oath before this com-
mittee, identified you as a member of the Communist Party.
Did he lie to this committee when he so identified you ?
Mr. RoTii. Mr. Scherer, I answered before under oath all of those
questions, all the questions of this type to you, and in my own way.
If I may, and my counsel may, cross-examine this person as in a
court at law we will then proceed. Otherwise I will not dignify what
he has to say under the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
May I cross-examine him ? May we cross-examine ?
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, this man stood up in this room and
called Mr. Roth, a witness, a liar. He is now given the opportunity
under oath to repeat that charge, and obviously he refuses to do so.
But I think we must have a direction, and I ask that you direct this
witness to answer my question as to whether or not
Mr. RoTH. You have refused me the right to cross-examine.
Mr. Scherer. I am not finished,
Mr. Roth. You are finished.
Mr. Scherer. Whether or not Lewis Elias lied to this committee
when he identified him as a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. RoTH. Sir, I answered those questions before, fully, and to your
satisfaction because you dismissed me.
Mr. Scherer. No ; you did not answer them to my satisfaction.
Mr. RoTH. Not in the way you wish^l, but to your satisfaction as a
member of this committee.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
(The witnevSS confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Let it be understood that if he does not answer the
question he has had ample opportunity to answer, and if he doesn't
answer he should be dismissed.
Mr. Doyle. So that there will be no misunderstanding of the cir-
cumstances which occurred, according to the record, I feel it is my
duty and province to direct you to answer the question, and I do
so.
Mr. RoTH. I answer the question in the same way that I did be-
fore. I refuse to answer it on the grounds of the first amendment
and the fifth amendment.
3886 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
And, Mr. Scherer, this is not a Nazi camp yet. Don't talk to me
that way. This is not a Nazi camp yet, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Let the record show that the witness
Mr. Roth. Please put that in the record.
Mr. Scherer. Let the record show that the witness' tone is ex-
ceptionally belligerent, and that his attitude is that of hateful.
Mr. Roth. I affirm the tone of my voice.
Mr. Scherer. That is all I want to know.
We have already voted to recommend to the full committee that you
be cited for contempt.
Mr. Roth. I might add on, that I think this is a punitive, black-
listing committee. That is your function, and not a legislative func-
tion, in my opinion.
Mr. Jackson. I ask the witness be excused.
Mr. Roth. Thank you, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. DoTLE. If there is no further legal answer to the question, you
are dismissed.
Mr. Roth. Mr. Jackson, are you for subsidies for musicians, as
you stated this morning ? I would like that for the record because I
think it is a very good thing if you are. I would be for you on this
basis.
Mr. Jackson. I don't recall what I said this morning.
Mr. Roth. You said you thought subsidies were a good thing.
Mr. Jackson. If I did recall, you would be the last one in the
world at this moment with whom I would discuss it.
Mr. Roth. Will you say it to the press, sir 'i Not to me. I don't
care if you discuss with me.
Mr. Jackson. Is it my understanding of the chairman's instructions
that you are finished ?
Mr. Roth. Thank you.
Mr. Jackson. You are quite welcome.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Victor Gottlijeb.
Mr. Scherer. We have one more — -Mr. Cyril Towbin. I wonder
if he is ready with his lawyer.
Mr. Margolis. Towbin ? Do you want Mr. Towbin back.
Mr. Tavenner. It is all right with me.
Mr. Doyle. He wanted to come back in your absence, and took
the floor.
Mr. Towbin. I am sorry : I took the floor in answer to a question.
I didn't ask to come back. I said if you call me I am ready to an-
swer to anything that is honorable and honest. I just repeat that.
Mr. Doyle. Did you take down what he said? Will you please
read that ?
Mr. Scherer. Without reading what he stated, I am asking that
he be recalled.
Mr. Towbin. I am here, sir.
Mr. Scherer. And that he be sworn.
Mr. Margolis. He has already been sworn.
Mr. Doyle. He was dismissed before, Mr. Margolis.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Towbin. I do, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3887
TESTIMONY OF CYRIL TOWBIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BEN MARGOLIS— Resumed
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Towbin, you were in the hearing room a few
minutes ago when the witness, Mr. Lewis Elias, under oath, identified
you as a member of the Commimist Party.
Did Mr. Elias lie to this committee when he so identified you ?
Mr. TowBiN. Mr. Scherer, it is your personal question. I answer
you personally that I refuse to dignify anything that any informer
will say against anybody by an answer, and that the history of in-
formers is something that I refuse to have any respect for. If you
choose to respect the words of informers I will have nothing to do with
you ; I will not cooperate with you, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Let's keep the record.
I ask for a direction that he be directed to answer the question.
Mr. TowBiN. I have already
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. If, by your answer to Mr. Scherer, you inferred that
it was his personal question, I assure you it was not his personal ques-
tion. It is his official question as a member of this committee. It was
not his personal question, and I direct you to answer the question in
view of what has occurred.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. TowBiN. Mr. Doyle, in respect to your remarks, I will repeat the
refusal to answer to the whole committee, to answer this question on
the basis of the first amendment and on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment which provides that no innocent person need testify against
himself.
Mr. Jackson. I ask the witness be excused.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Mr. TowBiN. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Victor Gottlieb.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Gottlieb, will you please be sworn.
Do you solenmly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God i
Mr. Gottlieb. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Will you be seated.
TESTIMONY OF VICTOR GOTTLIEB, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ARTHUR A. BROOKS, JR.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir.
Mr. Gottlieb. My name is Victor Gottlieb.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record.
Mr. Brooks. Arthur A. Brooks, Jr.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Gottlieb?
Mr. Gottlieb. Philadelphia, May 17, 1916.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Gottlieb. In Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles?
Mr. Gottlieb. Approximately 15 years.
3888 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation or profession ?
Mr. Gottlieb. I am a musician, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How Jong have you been engaged in the practice
of a professional musician ?
Mr. Gottlieb. I would say approximately 20, 21, 22 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly, what
your formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Gottlieb. I studied privately and entere'd the Curtis Institute
of Music in Philadelphia at the age of 12. Upon my graduation I
entered tlie Philadelphia Orchestra as the youngest member of that
organization at that time.
Before conclusion of the first season I was released from my contract
to form the Coolidge Quartet that was then being formed. I played
and traveled extensively over the Northern Hemisphere for approxi-
mately 5 years, after which I joined the Pro Arte Quartet of the Uni-
versity of Wisconsin. After that I enlisted in the Army Air Forces,
and, after serving and an honorable discharge, I entered free-lance
work in Hollywood.
Mr. Tavenner. That was approximately what year?
Mr. Gottlieb. I was discharged in December of 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the musicians branch
of the Communist Party in Los Angeles at any time between 1945 and
the present date ?.
Mr. Gottlieb. I am not a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer my question, please, sir?
Mr. Gottlieb. Well, as I said, it is a compound question. Could
you separate it ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, it is not compound. I have asked you if you
have been a member of the Communist Party at any time between
1945 and the present date.
Mr. Gottlieb. May I consult counsel, please, sir ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gottlieb. Sir, I decline to answer that question on the basis
of the first and the fifth amendments of the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Gottlieb. Excuse me, sir.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gottlieb. I have answered that, sir. I am not a member of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party in
1948?
Mr. Gottlieb. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the previ-
ously stated grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware of a plan of the Communist Party
to have its members assist in putting the Independent Progressive
Party on the ballot in the State of California?
Mr. Gottlieb. Sir, is that party on the Attorney General's sub-
versive list?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Gottlieb, Excuse me, sir.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gottlieb. I decline to answer that question on the previously
stated grounds.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3889
Mr. Taatenxer. Did you participate in a plan to assist the Com-
munist Party in putting the Independent Progressive Party on the
ballot in this State ?
Mr. Gottlieb. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the previ-
ously stated grounds.
May I address this committee for one moment ?
Mr. Doyle. If it is an appropriate remark.
Mr. Gottlieb. In m}^ opinion, it is, Mr. Doyle.
I want to say that, as you already know or think you know, every-
thing you are going to know about me, the conclusion seems inescap-
able to me that the only reason I am here is for the sole purpose
of seeing that I am blacklisted, to make sure my talent and experience
cannot be used to bring pleasure to the American people.
Mr. DoYivE. It is in. but we won't have any more time for that, I
am sure.
Mr. Jacksox. Mr. Chairman, I don't think it should be let go that
abruptly. I think the witness is here not because he is a musician,
not because he is an artist of note, but, rather, because of sworn testi-
mony which indicates to this committee that he was in fact, a member
of the Communist Party and that he did engage in the activities about
which counsel has questioned him.
This somewhat hysterical position that one is here because he is
a musician, and that it is the desire of the committee to blacklist
Mr. Gottlieb. I have
Mr. Jackson. Just a moment.
To blacklist anyone because of his occupation, is one of the most
fallacious charges that is made against the committee.
You are here because it was hoped by the committee that, on the
basis of information and evidence in the possession of the committee,
you would see fit to cooperate with the committee in telling it what
you knew, if you knew anything, with respect to the matters under
consideration which are clearly matters within the jurisdiction and
the purview of the committee.*
That is the reason you are here.
I do not think that you yourself really believe that Members of
the Congress of the United States came out here to put you in the
witness chair to make sure that you never got a job. If you do I
think that you had better disabuse your mind of it because that was
not our purpose.
Mr. Gotti.ieb. I am glad to hear that, sir. I only meant to say
that, as you already know, you knew what you were going to learn
from me, and that it was my impression that it was then the desire
to make sure is the |X)int I bring
Mr. D0Y1.E. May I ask this question :
You have stated twice, "I am not a member of the Communist Party
now."
To be frank with you, I assume that you got out of the Communist
Party for good cause. Why don't you help Congress to understand,
therefore, how tlie Communist Party operated when you were a mem-
ber of it, if you were ? Why don't you help the United States Con-
gress to understand why you got out,* if you did ?
In other words, I am not going to impute to you, in view of your
answer, that you never were a member. But the frame of my ques-
tion indicates naturally, that I assume from your answer that there
3890 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
was a time when you were in the Communist Party because you said,
"I am not now a member of the Communist Party."
Wliy don't you help us if you got out of the party in good faith? T
assume you got out for good cause.
Mr. Gottlieb. Sir, I feel that I am cooperating with this committee-
to the fullest extent consistent with the Constitution.
Mr. Jackson. Let me say to the witness, while the cooperation may
fall short, certainly the attitude of the witness has been somewhat
refreshing.
Mr. Gottlieb. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Gottlieb, I hand you a photostatic copy of an
Independent Progressive Party petition marked for identification as
"Gottlieb Exhibit No. 1." Will you examine the affidavit, appearing
at the end of the petition please, and state whether or not the name
appearing there is your name.
( Document handed to the witness and his counsel. )
Mr. Gottlieb. I decline to answer this question, sir, on the previ-
ously stated grounds, namely, the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence, as "Gott-
lieb Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Doyle. It will be received and so marked.
(This exhibit is similar to Roth exhibit No. 2, p. 3860 and will not be
reproduced in the printed record. It is on file m the committee's
records.)
Mr. Tavenner. This affidavit bears the date of February 4, 1943.
The name of the affiant is Victor Gottlieb, and the affidavit shows that
Victor Gottlieb solicited the signatures appearing thereon.
Mr. Gottlieb. If I may add one sentence to that which I said before,
I don't believe, gentlemen, that the American people will believe that
I, a musician who spent my entire life in that calling, could possibly
be considered a threat to the internal security of our country.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you feel that it is not a threat to this country
for the Communist Party to deceive the public in putting its own party
on the ballot under the name of some other party ?
Mr. Gottlieb. Excuse me.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gottlieb. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the previ-
ously stated grounds.
Mr. Doyle. May I state this to the witness :
Certainly this committee does not believe that every person that is
in the Communist Party is necessarily a revolutionist in the sense of
being willing to use force and violence. We certainly are not charg-
ing or inferring that every member, every musician in Los Angeles
who happened to be in the Commie cell was necessarily a hard-core
Communist. But we do have plenty of evidence that many of you
members of the Communist cell among the musicians did, at the di-
rection of the Communist Party in Los Angeles, circulate these peti-
tions as a direct subterfuge to California voters, to get the IPP"
on the ballot as an active front for the Communist Party. And we
have evidence, from former Communist Party members that they
didn't reveal to these electors whose names they solicited, the fact that
it was being circulated deliberately by the Communist Party.
Mr. ScHERER. And it is possible tliat this particular witness may
not have fully understood the full import of what he was doing.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3891
Mr. Gottlieb. Without discussing that particular-
Mr. ScHERER. I am merely saying he may not have understood what
the program was. It is possible. His testimony might reveal the
fact that
Mr. Doyle. Let's proceed. But we are going to assume that you
were not a willing party to the fraud.
Mr. Jackson. Any member of the Communist Party, on the basis of
the evidence which we have in this particular group, knew full well the
purpose for which the petitions were circulated.
I regret very much that this witness, who is obviousl}^ a man of in-
telligence and probably great talent, has seen fit to go just so far in
his denial of Communist Party membership but has also seen fit to
stop there and say, Beyond that I will tell you nothing."
I place the testimony of the witness precisely in the same category
as that of any other witness who comes up here and declines to answer
any questions concerning his Communist Party membership.
I want my position clear.
Mr. Doyle. Let me ask the witness one question.
Were you a member of the Communist Party at the time this peti-
tion was circulated in 1948, which appears to have your name thereon?
That is giving you an opportunity.
Mr. Gottlieb. Sir, I believe you are trying to link me with a period
and an activity which you allege is subversive.
I must decline to answer that question on the previously stated
grounds.
Mr. Doyle. We are not trying to link you with it. We are trying
to give you a chance to unlink yourself from it, if you can.
Mr. Tavenxer. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
the subpena was served on you to appear at this hearing ?
Mr. Gottlieb. I decline to answer that question, sir, for the same
reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. You are excused. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Joseph DiFiore.
Mr. Brooks. Mr. Tavenner, I represent Mr. DiFiore. I expect him
here a little later,
Mr. Ta\'enner. Very well. Do you represent Mr. Feher?
Mr. Brooks. Who ? "
Mr. Tavenner. Do you represent some other person who is now
present.
Mr. Brooks. Yes ; Mr. Compinsky.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well, we will call ]\Ir, Compinsky.
Mr. Brooks. I might state at this time I would like to thank you
and Mr. Wlieeler for the consideration you have given me in arrang-
ing the schedule for my witnesses. I appreciate it.
Mr. Doyle. I wish to say, in return for that, we know we have
highly ethical, highly cooperative and highly distinguished counsel.
Mr. Brooks. Thank you, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth, so help you, God ?
Mr. Compinsky. I do.
3892 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
TESTIMONY OF MANUEL L. COMPINSKY, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ARTHUR A. BROOKS. JR.
Mr. Tavennek. What is your name, sir?
Mr. CoMPiNSKY. My name is Manuel L. Compinsky.
Mr. Tavenner. Spell your last name.
Mr. Compinsky. C-o-m-p-i-n-s-k-y.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record.
Mr. Brooks. Arthur A. Brooks, Jr.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Compinsky?
Mr. Compinsky. I was born in England, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What date?
Mr. Compinsky. 1901.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to the United States?
Mr. Compinsky. I came to America in 1925.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen?
Mr. Compinsky. I was naturalized in 1931.
Mr. Tavenner. Where.
Mr. Compinsky. In New York State. I think it was Westchester,
It was completed in Westchester.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Compinsky. In Burbank.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in California ?
Mr. Compinsky. I came to California in 1933, but I concertized and
I moved around about. But I think I stayed here permanently from
about 1938.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession?
Mr. Compinsky. I am a concert artist.
Mr. Tavenxkr. How long have you been engaged in that profes-
sion, commercially ?
Mr. Compinsky. Well, I was considered a child prodigy, and I have
been at that since then, you might say.
Mr. Ta\^nner. What was your formal educational training?
Mv. Compinsky. I had the usual elementary tuition, and then I went
to Clephane's College in London — C-1-e-p-h-a-n-e's. And my musical
education was in Trinity College.
I studied with famous teachers like Emanuel Sauret — S-a-u-r-e-t —
Leopold Auer, and Eugene Ysaye — Y-s-a-y-e. And during the First
World War years I had the unfortunate education of the bombing'
of London. I say this because it was a kind of education which taught
me to abhor anything connected with force and violence, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not asking you for your life history. I asked
you for your formal educational training,
Mr. Compinsky. Well, that was about it.
And I went to America in 1925. I taught at the Trinity CoUegQ
in 1920 to 1925. I was oiTered a professorship there.
Mr. Tavenner. You have virt\ially been here since 1925?
Mr, Compinsky. That is right — since 1925.
Mr. Tav'enner. We have heard considerable testimony regarding
an organized Communist Party group in Los Angeles composed almost
exclusively of members of the musical ]jrofession. We are endeavor-
ing to ascertain just in what way the Connnunist Party was using that
group.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3893
I want to call on you to help the committee in understanding that
problem.
Mr. CoMPiNSKY. Well, sir, if you Avill allow me to oive my reasons
and my le<jjal reasons, after expressino^ my legal orounds '-
Mr. Jacksox. Is there a ]Deiiding question i
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
_Mr. Tavenxer. No; I was explaining why I wanted to question
him.
I ^yas hoping that you might be able to give this committee the facts
within your knowledge. I am sorry there has been an indication that
you are not willing to do so, but I still have hope.
Were you aware of an attempt being made by the Communist Party
to use musicians to advance its political interests?
(The witness confers witli his counsel.)
Mr. CoMi'iNSKY. Well, sir, I regret I must decline to answer that
question, on my constitutional privilege of the first amendment. And,
if you will be so courteous as to let me explain my reasons, I would
like to explain and express them, the reasons I have, which will only
take a minute and a half. It is being respectful.
Mr. Tavennek. It will be quite sufficient if you would state your
legal grounds without going into all of the personal reasons that you
may have for not wanting to answer the question.
Mr. CoMPiNSKY. I don't want to be misinterpreted, sir.
Mr. Tavenxeu. If you confine yourself to your legal reasons you
couldn't be misinterpreted.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, nuiy I make a suggestion in that con-
nection ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. In contrast with the attitude of many witnesses, the
present witness has, in evei-y nuinner that I have been able to observe,
conducted himself in a respectful and diguified manner. I would
suggest that it would be completely compatible with the rules if the
witness desires to submit a statement to the committee. It is pro-
vided for in the rules of procedure, and, if it does not take the form
prohibited by the rules of the committee, in that it attacks the mo-
tives of the committee or the Congress of the United States, I would
ask that it be included in the transcript of the hearings at this point.
Mr. Co:mpixsky. Sir, I think wliat I have to say will be, and it
shows respectfully, in regard to my constitutional answers.
Sir, if you will only give me the privilege, I would appreciate it.
It will only take a minute and a half.
Mr. Jackson, As far as I can go, it is the suggestion that I have
made, that it be incorporated as a prepared statement which can be
handed to the reporter.
Mr. Brooks. May I inquire ?
In other words, he will just hand the reporter the statement rather
than reading it. Is that your suggestion ?
Mr. Jackson. Subject to the approval of the committee, however.
Mr. Brooks. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. That is my suggestion.
Mr. Doyle. We will adopt the suggestion if the witness desires.
Mr. Tavenner. It will be necessary to inquire whether, in that state-
ment, he is relying in ])art upon the fifth amendment.
3894 COJVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. CoMPiNSKY. Yes, I am.
(The statement referred to is as follows :)
Statement of Manuel Compinsky
Gentlemen, when I received your subpena to appear here for questioning I ex-
perienced a chain reaction of mixed feelings which moved from one of shock to
indignation. But now I am glad you invited me because in the last few weeks you
have caused me to become reacquainted with myself. In having to appear before
you I have had to dig deep within myself to face certain values. We often take
values for granted until something happens to make us realize we may be losing
them.
My first thought was, yes, I will answer all the questions about my life and
profession. Then a thought struck me. I have done nothing wrong. All my
neighbors know me well. I have respected them and never hurt them or invaded
their privacy. My colleagues know me well. I have respected them and have
never invaded their privacy. I have lived faithfully as an American citizen
respecting the Constitution and every law of the land. Why this invasion into
my privacy?
America has been waving her flag of democracy to the rest of the world, a bea-
con of light for all the world to see of liberty and freedom. I remember when I
arrived in America I had a thrilling experience as the Statue of Liberty greeted
me, a symbol of freedom for all peoples regardless of race, creed, or color. In
all these years as an artist I have performed with all kinds of people and for all
kinds of organizations in every type of situation regardless of race, creed, or
color. I have never questioned them as to their beliefs of any kind. I have
listened to all beliefs with great interest, as I feel that only in that way can a
person mature and gain understanding.
As an artist I cannot possibly function and be of value unless I can think freely
and associate freely with my fellow beings.
We are living in an era of enlightenment. There is no need to fear ideas.
New ideas made this country. And today, if new ideas are not accepted and
nourished by the citizens of America, they will automatically die a natural death.
That is my belief.
Most of my life has been dedicated to music and in every era there have
been new composers who spoke a strange language. For example, I have
spent much time with the music of Arnold Schoeuberg, not because I like
his music, but because I must keep an open mind for ideas I do not under-
stand. That is progress. Because I do not understand or dislike a certain
composer's music, should I organize a committee to abolish the performance
and the publication of his works? It sounds preposterous, doesn't it? Let
us remember that criticism is healthy. New ideas will always be subject to
criticism. Conformity chokes out imagination and originality.
As an example of democracy in action, I would like to present a symphony
orchestra. Here we have a hundred men and women, regardless of race,
opinions, and personalities, who assemble to work together in harmony and
to create a work of art for all to hear, and elevate the spirit to higher levels
of living. Our democracy benefits from the example of musicians who live
together and work together for a common aim in peace and brotherhood.
Music is an art that brings peace and it can only thrive in an atmosphere
of peace. Beethoven wrote his ninth symphony for the brotherhood of all
men. I believe in that heritage. There can be no brotherhood if people inform
and point out each other because they may differ on opinions. That breeds
hate. There is room for differences in this big world of ours and it is possible
to live in peace and have respect for each other as human beings, for there is
no problem that cannot be solved amicably if we try enough.
In summation of what I have said up to now, I would like very much to
be myself, but in this terrible atmosphere of compulsion, I find it impossible
to be so. I have lived by the laws of our land and will continue to live by
these laws as guaranteed by our Constitution. I hope to continue to enjoy
my right to think, speak, and associate freely. Therefore I must decline to
answer your questions on the grounds of the first amendment, supplemented
by the fifth amendment. Some may think I am hiding behind such a privilege.
Actually I am standing in front of the fifth amendment, for the protection of
the innocent.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3895
In conclusion, I would like to add that we all tend to take our liberties
too much for granted. They need to be fought for and protected. Otherwise
we may lose them altogether.
Mr. Tavenner. Then, with that understanding, I will just ask you
one or two further questions.
I have before me a photostatic copy of an Independent Progressive
Party petition marked for identiiication purposes as "Compinsky
Exhibit No. 1." The -affidavit at the end of the petition shows that
Manuel Compinsky solicited the sigiiatures on it. The date is Febru-
ary 2, 1948. Who asked you to circulate this petition?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Compinsky. I regret, sir, and I have to decline on the gi'ounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Examine the petition, please, and state whether or
not the sigTiature appearing there is your signature, and whether it
was put there by you.
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
Mr. Compinsky. I respectfully decline to answer the question, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer the document above referred to in evidence,
as "Compinsky Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Doyle. It will be received and so marked.
(This exhibit is similar to Roth exhibit No. 2, p. 3860, and will not
be reproduced in the printed record; it is on file in the committee's
records.)
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Compinsky. I am not, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
the subpena was served on you for your appearance here ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Compinsky. I decline, sir, on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party
yesterday ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Compinsky. I am sorry, sir, the some grounds. I decline to
answer on the same grounds.
Mr. DoYLE. Any questions, Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. DoYLE. Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Just that, while this witness invoked the fifth amend-
ment, I think he did so in a proper and a dignified manner, and in-
voked it in most instances properly.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Mr. Compinsky. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Brooks ?
Mr. Brooks. Yes.
]Mr. Tavenner. Will you advise me when your client comes, and I
will put him on.
Mr. Brooks. I believe Mrs. Gottlieb was here. She was subpenaed.
Woud you like to have her now ?
Mr, Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Gottlieb, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Gottlieb. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please be seated.
3896 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE; LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
TESTIMONY OF MES. EUDICE GOTTLIEB, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, AETHUR A. BEOOKS, JE.
Mr. Tavenister. Will you state your name, please?
Mrs. Gottlieb. My name is Eudice Gottlieb.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by the same
coimsel who accompanied the preceding witness.
Mr. Brooks. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a native of California ?
Mrs. Gottlieb. I was born in New York State.
Mr. Ta%t:nner. New York City?
Mrs. Gottlieb. New York State.
Mr. Tavenner. Where?
Mrs. Gottlieb. In Buffalo.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles ?
Mrs. Gottlieb. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in California?
Mrs. Gottlieb. Since 1941.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have a profession?
Mrs. Gottlieb. Yes. I am a musician.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in your pro-
fession ?
Mrs. Gottlieb. Since I was 5 years old.
Mr. Tavenner. ^^Hiat has been jonv formal educational training?
Mrs. Gottlieb. I am a graduate of high school, and I attended the
Curtis Institute of Music where I got my diploma.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not the Communist Party
in this area was instrumental in having musicians perform in various
front organizations of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Gottlieb. I must decline to answer that question on the
grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in performing for the American-
Russian Institute in 1947?
Mrs. Gottlieb. Gentlemen, I play for all kinds of organizations.
This is my profession. And I feel that this is what I am capable of
doing. I have never screened an organization. I play because I think
people want to hear my playing, and that is my contribution to the
cultural life of this country.
I have also stressed and feel a great importance in playing our
American music for people because I feel that we have made a great
contribution to the cultural life of the whole world.
Mr. Tavenner. What the committee is interested in is this : It has
received evidence that the Communist Party used entertainers —
not only musicians but actors and others — in giving various parties
and performing for various front organizations as a duty to the Com-
munist Party. The committee has also heard testimony from some
such individuals stating tliat that was the thing which they did foi'
the Communist Party.
Mr. SciiERER. Also for the purpose of raising funds for the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. And for the purpose of raising funds.
My question was whether or not you had engaged in any such
activities for the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3897
Mrs. Gottlieb. I must decline to answer that question on the grounds
I have previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been a member of what is
known as the musicians branch of the Connnunist Party in Los
Angeles ?
Mrs. Gottlieb. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Gottlieb. No ; I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party
yesterday ?
Mrs. Gottlieb. I must decline to answer that question, sir, on the
same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mi-s. Gottlieb. I decline to answer that on the grounds I previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle, You are excused. Thank you.
Mr. Ta\tnner. Mr. Roy Eugene Frankson.
Mr. John Crowe ( attorney ) . Mr. Frankson's attorney, Mr. Kenny,
is not ]iere. He is over in superior court. He will be here at 4 : 30.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Tavenner, did you start to call the name of the
witness Feher a little while ago ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Feher. May I testify now ?
Mr. Tavenner. Very well.
Mr. Doyle. We will have to wait a minute. Mr. Jackson stepped out.
Mr. Tavenner. INIay we liave a few minutes' recess ?
Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in recess for not over 3
minutes.
(Wliereupon a short recess was taken, there being present Repre-
sentatives Doyle and Scherer.)
(The committee was reconvened upon the expiration of the recess;
present, Representatives Doyle, Jackson, and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please reconvene.
May the record show that three members of the subcommittee of
four are present.
Mr. DoYi^E. Will you please raise your right hand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear to tell tlie truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Feher. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MILTON FEHER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
DANIEL G. MARSHALL
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir?
Mr. Feher. Milton Feher, F-e-h-e-r.
3898 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record?
Mr, INIarshall. Daniel G. Marshall.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Feher ^
Mr. Feher. I was born in New York City.
Mr. Tavenner. When?
Mr. Feher. In September 1906.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?
Mr. Feher. In Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Feher. In Los Angeles almost 20 years.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ?
Mr. Feher, I am a musician.
Mr. Tavenner, Will you tell the committee briefly what your formal
educational training has been.
Mr. Feher. I went to elementary and high school in Brooklyn.
N. Y. My musical education began at the age of 5. My first teacher
was my father. Then I attended the Institute of Musical Art, at
that time the finest school of its kind in the country. I entered the
school at the age of 10, and I stayed until the age of 21.
In 1928 I received an artist's diploma from the Institute, and
followed with a year's study abroad. First, I spent the summer in
Fontainebleau, France, and the rest of the year in Hungary as an
American exchange student. There I was awarded another artistic
diploma.
Then I returned to this country, and I was engaged by Leopold
Stokowski to play in the Philadelphia Symphony Orchestra, where
I played for 6 years. I left there and came to Los Angeles in 1936,
lured by the prospect of the high pay in the motion picture studios.
I was a free-lance musician for quite some time. I played 2 years
with the Los Angeles Philharmonic.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been engaged in the practice of your
profession in the city of Los Angeles from 1936 on until the present
time?
Mr. Feher. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been a member of the Com-
munist Party since 1936 ?
Mr. Feher. That is a question I refuse to answer under the first
amendment of the Constitution, supplemented by the fifth amendment.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner, Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Feher. I decline to answer the question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever used the name of Harry Brown?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Feher. The same answer, the same grounds. I answered. I
declined on the same grounds as before.
Mr. Tavenner. You started to say something else?
Mr. Feher, I just want to repeat. You seemed to question it. You
seem to be surprised.
Mr. ScHERER. He is beyond the stage of being surprised. Mr.
Tavenner has lieard everything.
Mr. Feht-:r. I have heard a lot, too.
Mr. Tavenner, Have you been a member of tlie Musicians Branch
of the Communist Party in Los Angeles at any time?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA 3899
Mr, Feher. The same answer, the some grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. DoTLE. Any questions, Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. ScHERER. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. You are excused, Mr. Witness.
Mr. Ta\t5nner. Mr. DiFiore?
( There was no response. )
Mr. Doyle. Is Mr. DiFiore in the hearing room ?
( There was no response. )
Mr. Tavenner. I believe Mr. Brooks was the attorney representing
this individuaL Someone spoke for him here a few minutes ago.
Mr. Brooks. Yes, Mr. Tavenner. Mr. DiFiore was at work today.
He was coming down here this afternoon. I called the studio. He is
still recording.
I told him to get down here as soon as he could. It may be that
he won't get here before you adjourn. If so, I am wondering if he
could appear in the morning.
I regret this mixup, but I would appreciate it.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Brooks, if he doesn't arrive here this afternoon,
of course we would regret it, but be here by 9 : 30 in the morning
without fail.
Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir. I will guarantee that he will be here at
that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Frankson ?
Mr. John Crowe. Mr. Kenny is not here.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of Mr. Kenny's firm?
Mr. Crowe. Yes.
Mrs. Tavenner. Can't you go ahead ?
Mr. Crowe. Mr. Frankson is not here either yet, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Here we are, Mr. Chairman, trying to proceed. A
matter of two witnesses is an important thing. It will take that much
longer tomorrow.
Mr. Scherer. Are there any others ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir ; because I tried to arrange these matters to
accommodate counsel and the witnesses as nearly as possible so that
they wouldn't be kept hanging around here all day.
Mr. Jackson. I can understand. Things have progressed more ex-
peditiously than the committee might have hoped for.
Mr. Tavenner. I guess I draw too thin a line, maybe, in trying to
work these things out
May I ask counsel who are present to advise me whether any of
their clients who are subpenaed for tomorrow are here?
If so, we will proceed with them.
Do you have any, Mr. Brooks ?
Mr. Brooks. Mr. DiFiore is my onlj^ remaining client.
Mr. Scherer. Maybe we could have a 5-minute recess and somebody
will show up.
Mr. Doyle. Is there a possibility of Mr. Bob Kenny being back here
this afternoon with his client?
Mr. Crowe. Yes. I can't speak for his client, but he will be here.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. It won't do much good to have him if you don't
have his client. May I ask you to get in touch with your client?
Mr. Crowe. He is not my client.
3900 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE LOS ANGELES, CALIF., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. He is in your firm. You are speaking for your
firm.
Mr. Croave. I am speaking only for Mr. Kenny, sir.
Mr. Tavenxer. It is your firm that is responsible. And I don't
think it is very good taste for you to sit here and indicate you are not
interested, if you are interested to the point of coming here and.
making representations.
Mr. Jackson. May I suggest we take a 10-minute recess.
Mr. Doyle. Let's take a 5-minute recess and hope that they will
be here, and not 10 minutes. That is too long.
Mr. Tavenner. I think, in the light of the fact that Mr. Kenny's
firm is represented here, that the gentleman wlio came and stated
Mr. Kenny is not here yet but may arrive, but will not call his asso-
ciate's client, that we should proceed for contempt against this man
if he is not here before this proceeding is closed this afternoon.
Mr. Doyle. Very well.
Mr. Crowte. I don't know how to get in touch with Mr. Frankson.
Mr. Tavenner. I think it was your duty this morning.
Mr. Crowe. I was here all day in the Federal district court trying
a case.
Mr. Tavenner. It is your duty to find out.
Mr. Crowe. I merely came up here. I am not even a partner of
Kenny's or anyone else. I merely have office space in that building.
Mr. Tavenner. I understood you were with Mr. Kenny.
Mr. Crowe. I am associated with Mr. Kenny, and very proud to be,,
sir. But I have no jurisdiction or governing power over Mr. Kenny
or his clients.
Mr. Tavenner. Nevertheless, if someone doesn't become interested
in the case, I am going to suggest to the committee that we proceed
for contempt against this man who is paid to appear.
Mr. DoYi.E. Do you know where the client is ?
Mr. Crowe. I do not know that.
Mr. D0Y1.E. I assume Bob Kenny does. He is usually pretty
prompt.
Mr. Crowe. He is over in su^Derior court now, and I assume he is
on his way over here.
Mr. DoYLE. It won't take over 10 minutes to get liere.
Mr. Jackson. Are we in recess ?
Mr. DoYLE. Yes.
(Wliereupon, a short recess was taken, there being present Repre-
sentatives Doyle, Jackson and Scherer.)
(The committee was reconvened upon the expiration of the recess;
present Representatives Doyle, Jackson and Scherer.)
Mr. DoYLE. The connnittee will come to order.
The committee will stand in recess until 9 : 30 tomorrow morning.
Any witnesses in the room who were subpenaed, but have not yet
been heard, will return tomorrow morning.
Is that correct, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much.
(Whereupon, at 4: 51 p. m., Thursday, April 19, 195G, the commit-
tee was re<?essed, to be reconvened at 9 : 30 a. m., Fridav, April 20,
1956.)
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