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Full text of "Investigation of Communist activities in the North Carolina area. Hearing before the Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Eighty-fourth Congress, second session. Including index. March 12, 13, and 14, 1956"

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE 

NORTH CAROLINA AREA 

HABVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY 

DEPOSITED BY THE 

.UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT 

MAY 28 1956 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES 

EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 



MARCH 12, 13, and 14, 1956 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities 



INCLUDING INDEX 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
75146 WASHINGTON : 1956 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
United Statks House of Repkesentatives 

FRANCIS E. WALTER, ronnsylvania. Chairman 

MOKOAN >r. MOri.rEU. Missouri nAUOT.D H. VELDE. IlUnols 

CLYPE IKU'l.E. California EEKNAUD \Y. KKAKNEY. New York 

JAMES U. FUAZIKR. Jr.. Tenuessee DONALD L. JACKSON. California 

EDWIN E. \Y1LL1S, Louisiana GORDON U. SCIIERER. Ohio 

Thomas \V. 1?k.vle, Sr., Chief Clerk 
n 



C O N T E N T S 



March 12, 195G: 

Testimony of — Page 

Charles Benson Childs. . 3506 

John V. Myers 3523 

Ralph C. Clontz, Jr 3529 

John V. Myers (resumed) 3530 

Nathaniel Bond __ 3532 

William Eyans _ 3533 

Afternoon session: 

Natham'ol liond (resumed) 3538 

Charles Benson Childs (resumed) _. 3548 

Nathaniel Bond (resumed) __ 3549 

Ralph C. Clontz, Jr. (resumed) 3549 

Nathaniel Bond, (resumed) 3550 

Ralph C. Clontz, Jr. (resumed) 3551 

Josepli Franklin Blake 3556 

March 13, 1956: 

Testimony of — 

William G. Binkley.. 3565 

AlVjcrt Warren Wiiliams.-_ _.. 3566 

Viola Jirovvn 3573 

William Archibald McGirt, Jr„. 3577 

Eugene Feldman 3590 

Afternoon session: 

Eugene Feldman (resumed) 3597 

William C. Binkley (resumed) 3603 

George Day id Van Camp 3615 

Mary Major Robertson (Mrs. William Fred Robertson) 3627 

March 14, 1956: 

Testimony of — 

Odis Reayis. _.. 3635 

Index - i 



Public Law 601, 79th Congress 

The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress (1946), chapter 
753, 2d session, which provides : 

Be it enacted iy the Senate and House of Representatives of the United 8tate$ 
of America in Congress assembled, * * * 

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

RttleX 
beo. 121. standing committees 

******* 

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members. 

Rule XI 

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES 
******* 

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(A) Un-American Activities. 

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit- 
tee, is authorized to maije from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, 
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa- 
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attaclcs 
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and 
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces- 
sary remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- 
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such 
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, 
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person 
designated by any such chairman or member. 



RULES ADOPTED BY THE 84TH CONGRESS 

House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955 

• • • • • • • 

Rule X 

STANDING COMMITTEES 

1. Thefe shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con- 
gress, the following standing committees : 

• *****• 

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members. 

• •••••• 

Rule XI 

POWERS AND DUTITES OF COMMITTEES 

17. Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(a) Un-American Activities. 

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, 
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char- 
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop- 
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and 
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu- 
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress 
in any necessary remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- 
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times 
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has 
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person desig- 
nated by any such chairman or member. 

VI 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE 

NORTH CAROLINA AREA 



MONDAY, MARCH 12, 1956 

United Siates House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the 
Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Charlotte^ N. G. 

PUBLIC HEABINa 

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met 
at 10 a. m., pursuant to notice, in the Federal Court House, Charlotte, 
N. C, Hon. Francis E. Walter (chairman), presiding. 

Committee members present : Representatives Francis E. Walter, of 
Pennsylvania, Edwin E. Willis, of Louisiana, and Bernard W. Kear- 
ney, of New York. 

Staff members present: Richard Arens, acting counsel, and W. 
Jackson Jones, investigator. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

For many years iioav, the Committee on Un-American Activities 
has been investigating the activities of the Communist Party through- 
out the United States. During this period, we have held hearings 
in Chicago, 111.; Detroit, Mich.; New York City, Pittsburgh and 
Philadelphia, Pa. ; Seattle, Wash. ; San Francisco and Los Angeles, 
Calif., and Washington, D. C. At these hearings evidence was ob- 
tained which shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that this international 
Communist conspiracy is attempting to enslave all the free peoples 
of the world. Even though the vast majority of our citizens are 
vehemently anti-Communist in their every thought and action, this 
does not deter the Communist Party from continually attempting to 
infiltrate and dominate organizations and groups in every section of 
our coimtry. 

During these hearings, the committee will take testimony relating to 
the activities of the Communist Party in this area. It is not our desire 
to embarrass or subject anyone to unnecessary criticism. However, 
as a committee of Congress authorized to investigate the dissemina- 
tion of un-American propaganda in the United States, we are re- 
quired to interrogate all persons believed by the committee to possess 
information of value on this subject. 

We seek and must obtain the full cooperation of all if this threat 
to our lives and property is to be effectively eliminated. 

I want to take this opportunity to express my thanks, as well as 
those of the committee, to Judge Wilson Warlick for allowing us the 
use of his courtroom for these hearings. Our thanks go also to the 
law-enforcement agencies and private individuals who have so will- 

3505 



3506 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

ingly cooperated with the staff of the committee in its preliminary 
investigation. 

I should like to also state that smoking during the hearing is not 
allowed. 

Will you call your first witness, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. If you please, Mr. Chairman, the first witness will be 
Charles Benson Childs. Will you please come forward. Remain 
standing, if you will, and raise your right hand to be sworn. 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. Childs. I do. 

TESTIMONY OP CHARLES BENSON CHUDS 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself, by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Mr. Childs. My name is Charles Benson Childs. I live at 108 
Joiner, in Chapel Hill. I am a student and lab instructor at the 
University of North Carolina. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Childs, have you ever been a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell the committee the circumstances which 
precipitated your membership in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Childs. My association with the Communist Party began ap- 
proximately before I became a member and gradually led into mem- 
bership in the latter part of 1948. While I was in high school, a 
senior, I had an English instructor who had had some experience in 
the Gastonia strike in 1929. She often told us about the Communist 
Party and the way it operated in Gastonia during that strike. 

I became interested in it, and later I met Mike Ross, who was a 
union organizer in High Point at that time, and in discussions with 
Ross, he seemed to follow certain things, and also through him I met 
many other people and I was gradually led into the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your career in the Communist 
Party, did you consistently report information to the Federal Bureau 
of Investigation ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Arens. Was your membership in the Communist Party, con- 
cerning which we shall have considerable questions today, with the 
knowledge and consent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. In other words, were you during the career which you 
pursued in the Communist Party, an undercover agent or informer 
for the Federal Bureau of Investigation ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. If you will, please, Mr. Childs, pick us up there when 
you began your activities in the Progressive Party in 1948. 

Mr. Childs. After I began associating with the Progressive Party 
through Mike Ross, I became acquainted with Bill Robertson, who at 
that time was living in Chapel Hill. 

Mr. Arens. Could you give us a further identification of Bill Rob- 
ertson ? 



ESrVESTIGATION OF COMJMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3507 

Mr. CiirLDS. Bill Robertson, I understand, at that time was in 
Chapel Hill, a student at the university. 

Mr. Arens. Is that the University of North Carolina? 

Mr. Childs. Yes. sir. Robertson led me on with certain things 
throughout this period 1948 and 1949. 

Mr. Arens. Into what did he lead you? Give us a chronology 
of the activities which you followed in the Communist Party or in 
Communist fronts. 

Mr. Childs. This included such things as the Stockholm peace peti- 
tion, the Daniels Defense Committee, the Labor Youth League. 

Mr. Arens. Could you pause a moment there ? Tell us what you did, 
and when you did it with reference to the Stockholm peace petition, 
a popular designation for the World Peace Appeal ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall on the Stockholm peace petition I hit with it in 
Winston-Salem. 

The Chairman. I think it is important to go into detail in this, 
Mr. Arens, because of the large number of well-meaning people who 
were misled by the word "peace." This is a favorite device of the 
hard-boiled Communist conspirators, and I think it is important to 
do so. 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. Would you kindly tell us in detail the activi- 
ties engaged in in this area on the Stockholm peace petition and 
the persons who were behind it. 

Mr. Childs. As far as the overall State activities on the Stockholm 
peace petitions, I can remember specifically the ones in which I was in- 
volved in Winston-Salem, and persons who did support it in Winston- 
Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Would you tell us who was behind it in Winston-Salem 
where you were involved ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall among those people who supported it was Bill 
Robertson. He helped to get the petition at that time. 

Mr. Arens. Did you subsequently learn that Bill Robertson was a 
member of the Communist conspiracy ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please, sir. 

Mr. Childs. I recall that in general — I can't be specific about the 
names of the individuals — many people who at that time were asso- 
ciated with the Stockholm peace petition I later learned were members 
of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. Could you give us more names at this time, or would 
you prefer to wait until we get into other activities before you identify 
them ? 

Mr. Childs. I think I would prefer to wait. 

Mr. Arens. Will you tell us about your activities in the Labor Youth 
League ? First of all, when did you identify yourself with the Labor 
Youth League ? 

Mr. CniiDS. I became a member of the Labor Youth League at the 
invitation of Bill Robertson. That was in the early part of 1950. This 
was in Greensboro. The way I actually went to Greensboro from High 
Point is that Robertson called me from Greensboro and told me he 
wanted me to come to Greensboro, and I would be met at the bus sta- 
tion by a person whom I would recognize. 

Mr. Arens. Did that happen ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 



3508 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Who met you ? 

Mr. Childs. Hans Freistadt. 

Mr. Arens. Would you spell the last name, please ? 

Mr. Childs. F-r-e-i-s-t-a-d-t. 

Mr. Arens. What transpired after you met at the bus station ? 

Mr. Childs. From the bus station Freistadt and I went to an auto- 
mobile, and there we met Emanuel Coutlakis. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly spell his name ? 

Mr. Childs. C-o-u-t-l-a-k-i-s. 

Mr. Arens. What transpired there? 

Mr. Childs. Then we went to a student's apartment or room near 
the campus of A. and T. College. 

Mr. Arens. What was that student's name ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall the name of Richard Jenkins. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us what happened then. 

Mr. Childs. At that meeting there were several students from A. 
and T. College. 

Mr. Arens. Would you please identify that college ? 

Mr. Childs. That is the Agricultural and Technical College in 
Greensboro. We held a Labor Youth League meeting there, laying 
the foundation for the Labor Youth League. 

Mr. Arens. How many people were in the Labor Youth League 
when you were identified with it in 1950 ? 

Mr. Childs. At that time I recall there were approximately eight 
people at that meeting in Greensboro. 

Mr. Arens. Could you give us their names ? 

Mr. Childs. I can recall several of them, but not all. There was 
myself, Hans Freistadt, Emanuel Coutlakis, and I recall the name of 
Brooks. 

Mr. Arens. What was the first name of Brooks, do you recall ? 

Mr. Childs. No, sir. And two students from A. and T. They were 
coeds at A. and T. 

Mr. Arens. Do you recall their names ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall the first name of one was Margaret. I believe 
her name was Margaret. I can't identify them any further. 

Mr. Arens. May I ask whether you ever had a Communist Party 
name which was separate and distinct from your own true name? 

Mr. Childs. I used one at the party school. 

Mr. Arens. "WTiat was that name, please ? 

Mr. Childs. Phil. 

Mr. Arens. P-h-i-1? 

Mr. CiHLDS. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us something of the activities of the Labor 
Youth League in this community when you were identified with it? 

Mr. Childs. Right after that first meeting with the Labor Youth 
League, they continued meetings in Greensboro, Winston-Salem, High 
Point, and Durham. They circulated certain pamphlets and circulars 
which the Labor Youth League would print, and held regular meet- 
ings and a national convention in New York. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest at this point 
the record of this hearing reflect that the Labor Youth League has 
been cited as a Communist front which — 

has taken the place of the two prior organizations, Young Communist League 
and American Youth for Democracy, as the organization for young Communists. 



INVESTIGATION OF COJVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3509 

It was cited on August 30, 1950, by the then Attorney General of the 
United States. 

It was also cited by the House Committee on Un-American Activ- 
ities as — 

another spearhead of the peace campaign among American youth which is under 
Communist control. 

The Chairman. I think it is important to add at this point that no 
attempt was ever made by this organization to refute findings made 
by this committee or by the Attorney General 6i the United States. 

Mr. Arens. On the basis of your background and experience in the 
Labor Youth League, have you reached a conclusion whether or not 
that organization was, during your experience in it, controlled by the 
Communist conspiracy ? 

Mr. Childs. When I first became a member it was explained to me 
by Freistadt and others that the Labor Youth League was the youth 
arm of the Communist Party, and had replaced the Young Communist 
League. 

Mr. Arens. During your experience in the Labor Youth League, 
did you have occasion to engage in any activities with a person by 
the name of Maud Russell ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly explain first of all who Maud Russell 
is, and secondly, what your activities were with her ? 

Mr. Childs. Maud Russell was the executive chairman of the Com- 
mittee for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy. At that time she had — 
it was in the spring of 1950 — come to the State to make several 
speeclies. The general theme of her speech was that the United 
States Government should recognize Communist China, and at the 
same time establish trade relations with China. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliat were your activities and associations with her? 

Mr. Childs. I was given the assignment of going with her around 
the State to meet certain people. 

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us where you went with Maud Russell so 
she could make these speeches with respect to recognition of Red 
China? 

Mr. Childs. She made speeches at classrooms of A. and T. College. 

Mr. Arens. Under whose auspices were the speeches given at 
A. and T. College? 

Mr. Childs. At A. and T. College, I recall that some members of 
the Labor Youth League made these arrangements. 

Mr. Arens. Were the speeches made on the campus ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. How many were in attendance ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall this speech was made in a classroom. 

Mr. Arens. How many were in attendance in the classroom where 
Maud Russell made her speech? Please give us your best estimate 
as to the number of students present. 

Mr. Childs. It was approximately 20 or 30. 

Mr. Arens. Were any faculty members present? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you recall under whose auspices the speech was 
given ? Was it under the auspices of the Committee for a Democratic 
Far Eastern Policy, or under the auspices of the Labor Youth League ? 



3510 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Childs. I do not recall exactly who sponsored her speech at 
that school. I do recall we had lunch at the YWCA at A. and T. 
College. 

Mr. Akens. Mr. Chairman, may I respectfully state for the record 
that the Committee for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy with which 
Maud Russell was identified, was cited as "Communist" by the then 
Attorney General on April 27, 1949. 

In 1948, the California Committee on Un-American Activities like- 
wise cited the Committee for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy as a 
"new front" in the field for the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. Is that the organization urging the recognition of 
Eed China? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. As the witness has just said, that was the 
theme of her speech. 

Would you kindly proceed to give us the rest of the itinerary of 
Maud Russell? She spoke at this one school, you said, to about 30 
students. 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. On the theme of diplomatic recognition of Red China. 
Would you tell us where else she spoke ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall we went to Greensboro. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere did she speak there ? 

Mr. Childs. Excuse me. Winston- Salem. She spoke at A. and T. 
in Greensboro, and also at some place in Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us where she spoke at Winston-Salem? 

Mr. Childs. I don't recall exactly where that speech took place, 
but I do recall that we did go to Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Was it a student gathering ? 

Mr. Childs. I don't recall now. 

Mr. Arens. Is there any other place where she spoke ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. We went to Durham and paid a few calls 
there, and then we went to Chapel Hill. 

Mr. Arens. Where did she speak there ? 

Mr. Childs. At Chapel Hill she spoke at Graham Memorial, which 
is a student center. 

Mr. Arens. How many students were in attendance ? 

Mr. Childs. Approximately 20. 

Mr. Arens. Under whose auspices did she speak? 

Mr. Childs. Young Progressives. 

Mr. Arens. Were you identified with the Young Progressives of 
America ? 

Mr. Childs. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Were the Young Progressives identified with the Pro- 
gressive Party ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall there was some relationship between the Pro- 
gressive Party and the Young Progressives. Exactly what I don't 
loiow. 

Mr. Arens. Was the theme of Maud Russell's address at each of 
these meetings substantially the same, namely, the urgency or desir- 
ability from her viewpoint of recognizing Red China? 

Mr. Childs. In the recognition and establishment of trade relations 
her general theme was from the standpoint of how it would benefit the 
United States. 

Mr. Arens. Would you continue with your career in the Communist 
Party? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3511 

Mr. Childs. I continued associating with numerous individuals and 
I was invited to join the party later. 

Mr. Arens. Who invited you to join the Communist Party? 

Mr. Childs. I was invited to join by Hank Farash. 

Mr. Arens. How do you spell his name ? 

Mr. Childs. F-a-r-a-s-h, or -i-s-h. 

Mr. Arens. Identify him, please. 

Mr. Childs. He was the district organizer of the Communist Party 
for this district. 

Mr. Arens. When did you join the Communist Party? 

Mr. Childs. I joined in October 1950. 

Mr. Arens. Where did you join?^ 

Mr. Childs. I joined in High Point. 

Mr. Arens. Would you identify for this record all persons to your 
certain Imowledge who were known by you to be members of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Childs. Of those persons I knew in High Point to be members, 
one was Virginia White. 

Mr. Arens. Would you pause a moment to identify her, please ? 

Mr. Childs. When I joined the Communist Party, a new club was 
formed and she was one of the new members in this club. 

Mr. Arens. How many were in your club or cell ? 

Mr. Childs. At this first club I was in there were three members. 

Mr. Arens. Who was the other member, beside you and Virginia 
White? 

Mr. Childs. There was one other one. Eugene Feldman. 

Mr. Arens. Would you spell his name ? 

Mr. Childs. F-el-d-m-a-n. 

Mr. Arends. Could you further identify him, please ? 

Mr. Childs. It was explained to me that Feldman had been a south- 
ern representative for the Daily Worker in Alabama. 

Mr. Arens. Is that the Communist publication ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. The Communist Daily Worker. T\nio was your su- 
perior in your cell in the Communist Party at High Point? 

Mr. Childs. The chairman of that group was Eugene Feldman. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know from whom did Eugene Feldman receive 
his instructions or orders ? 

Mr. Childs. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Would you tell us of the activities of the Communist 
Party cell of which you were a member at High Point ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. In this first cell I was in, I was given the 
assignment of continuing work in the Labor Youth League and Vir- 
ginia White, I recall, was doing some work for a peace campaign. 

Mr. Arens. Was that the Stockholm peace appeal ? 

Mr. Childs. I don't recall whether that was the specific one or not. 

Mr. Arens. What was your specific assignment in the Labor Youth 
League ? 

Mr. Childs. Just to try to develop students into Labor Youth 
Tjeague members and further the program of the Labor Youth League. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do pursuant to that direction? 

Mr. Childs. I made no attempt to recruit. 



3512 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Were you, durinc; all of this period, reporting infor- 
mation to the Federal Burea.u of Investigation ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us of the activities of other members of 
this Communist cell at High Point ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall that Feldman was associated with a church in 
Greensboro at that time. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat church was that ? 

Mr. Childs. I do not recall the name of it. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know what he did in the church? 

Mr. Childs. Either at that time or later he had taught Sunday 
school. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have information respecting any Communist 
Party activities of Feldman? 

Mr. Childs. I know that he was a member of this group, and that 
he did teach Sunday school. "Wliat might happen to be the directives 
of the party at that particular period he reported attempts to carry 
them out. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have information respecting the activities of 
Feldman in the Sunday school or church at the behest of the Com- 
munist conspiracy? 

Mr. Childs. I recall that he had mentioned to us — I was also in 
another group with him — that he did seem to make attempts to in- 
terpret things and how it might be beneficial to the party's position. 

Mr. Arens. Did he undertake to persuade any members of the 
church or the church organization to follow the Communist Party 
line in respect to legislation or in respect to any course of action that 
the party wanted consummated ? 

Mr. Cttilds. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Arens. Would you proceed with your next experience or iden- 
tification in the Communist Party? "^Vliere and when did you have 
another identification with the Communist Party? 

Mr. Cttilds. T moved to Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Wlien? 

Mr. Childs. April 1951. There I was put into a new club. 

Mr. Arends. What caused your move to Winston-Salem from High 
Point? 

Mr. Chh.ds. At that time I was unemployed and Winston-Salem, 
I understood, was a c'ood place to get a job because there seemed to be 
some strength in Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Were you identified in Winston-Salem with a Com- 
munist cell ? 

Mr. Childs. I was a member of a club in Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us the names of the other members of the 
Communist cell in Winston-Salem? 

Mr. Childs. I was a member of several cells there. 

Mr. Arens. Could we take them one by one so we are sure we don't 
miss one. Take thorn in chronological order. Give us the first one 
and the members, please. 

Mr. Childs. This is the way I can recall at this time how these ran. 
I was at one time associated in groups with Eugene Feldman, Jerry 
Pearson. 

Mr. Arens. P-e-a-r-s-o-n? 
Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3513 

Mr. Arens. Could you further identify Jerry Pearson? I do not 
believe you identified him before. 

Mr. Childs. Jerry Pearson for one club in which I was a member 
was the contact with the city committee in this club. 

Mr. Arens. By the city committee do you mean the city committee 
of the Communist Party? 

Mr. CiiiTJis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Was he active likewise in the Progressive Party ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir, he was active in the Progressive Party. 

Mr. Arens. To your certain knowledge, did you know him as a 
member of the Communist conspiracy ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give us another name ? 

Mr. Childs. Also at one time or another I had met with Warren 
Williams. 

Mr. Arens. Did you meet in a closed Communist Party session with 
him ? Was he identified to you as a member of the Communist con- 
spiracy ? 

Mr. Childs. He was identified to me as a member of the party. 

Mr. Arens. Would you give his name again ? 

Mr. Childs. Warren Williams. 

Mr, Arens. How do you spell the last name ? 

Mr. Childs. W-i-1-l-i-a-m-s. 

Mr. Arens. Give us as much identification on Warren Williams 
as you can, please, sir. 

Mr. Childs. I recall that Warren Williams was active in the party 
in Winston-Salem, and that on one occasion he was with Scales in a 
security check. 

Mr. Arens. By Scales, you mean Junius Scales, who was convicted 
in the Smith Act trial ? 

Mr. Childs. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. All right, sir. 

Mr. Childs. He was with Junius Scales at one time when I was 
given a security check, or "cadre review," as we referred to it. 

Mr. Arens. Is that a security check within the Communist Party? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. At one time I was told by Scales that if I 
could not get hold of him, I was to get hold of Warren Williams, if 
anything came up. 

Mr. Arens. You have just identified Warren Williams? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have the name of another person who was known 
by you to have been a member of the Communist conspiracy in Wins- 
ton-Salem ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. "Wlio was it, please ? 

Mr. Childs. Odis Reavis. 

Mr. Arens. Would you spell his last name? 

Mr. Childs. R-e-a-v-i-s. 

Mr. Arens. Will you further identify him? 

Mr, Childs. He was a member of the Communist Party in one of 
my clubs ? 

Mr. Arens. In Winston-Salem? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens, To your knowledge, what did he do ? 



3514 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Childs. I recall he was from Detroit and also from High Point. 

Mr. Arens. I believe, Mr. Chairman, it should be stated at this 
point that the records of this committee show that Odis Reavis was 
identified under oath as a member of the Communist conspiracy. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Childs, a moment ago you mentioned the city com- 
mittee of the Communist Party, which apparently had some super- 
vision over the activities of the cell. Could you kindly give us as 
much information as you have respecting the personnel of the city 
committee, and its functions and activity ? 

Mr. Childs. I gathered from the way our club operated and the 
way that our representative for the city committee reported to us 
that in the organization of the Communist Party in Winston-Salem 
there was a central committee composed of several people — the exact 
number I do not know. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know the names of the people ? 

Mr. Childs. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know the functions of the city committee? 

Mr. Childs. As far as the function is concerned, the relationship 
which I gathered was that the city committee had jurisdiction over 
all chibs within the city, and was responsible for seeing that the clubs 
carried out the directives of the State organization. 

Mr. Arens. These clubs were secret clubs, were they not ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us a word about the security system 
in vogue in the Communist Party to protect the identity of the cells 
within a given area ? 

Mr. Childs. The security arrangements for the club meetings were 
that generally we would make arrangements to pick up a person in an 
automobile at some set time at some place. Everybody would not 
be picked up at the same place, it would be different places in the 
city. No member in one club was to know the identity of members 
in another club or whether or not another club existed. 

Mr. Arens. You did become cognizant, however, that there were 
other clubs in existence, even though you could not or did not learn 
the identification of the personnel in the clubs ? 

Mr. Childs. I understood that there were other clubs in Winston- 
Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us, Mr. Childs, a word about the activi- 
ties of the cells with which you have been identified in the Cormnu- 
nist Party ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall that the activities of these groups included 
the directions to 

(The chairman left the room.) 

Mr. Childs. Follow the State's program if possible, which at that 
time was industrial concentration. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat do you mean by industrial concentration ? 

Mr. Ciin.Ds. The party took the position that the industry in our 
State — the national party convention had taken the position that the 
party should adopt the program of industrial concentration. 

Mr. Arens. You mean by that to concentrate the comrades within 
heavy industry or designated industry ? 



I 



INVESTIGATION OF COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES 3515 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. They adopted the program of attempting to 
place people in key industries or shops in industry and take people 
out of education into industry. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have in mind any particular plants within 
this State in which there was a concentrated effort to place comrades? 

Mr. Childs. I recall that they were very interested in getting people 
working at R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Co. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have any reason for that? 

Mr. Childs. I recall that one of the primary reasons was the large 
number of workers there, and at one time they did have a union at 
Reynolds. 

Mr. Arens. Did any concentrated effort develop with reference to 
the Western Electric plant at Winston-Salem ? 

Mr. Childs. At that time, when I moved to Winston-Salem, I went 
to work for Western Electric. I recall in some discussions that it 
was brought out that although they were not having an industrial 
concentration program, or attempting to get members in the Western 
Electric plant, that they did consider it a vital plant to have people 
working there, primarily because of the union. 

Mr. Arens. Was there or is there now produced at the Western 
Electric plant any significant defense equipment ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know what is produced there ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall radar and radar components are produced 
there. 

Mr. Arens. Was that part of the reason why the Communist Party 
during your experience wanted to have a concentration of comrades 
at the Western Electric ? 

Mr. Childs. It was never told me specifically that that was one 
of the reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us something of the political activities of 
the Communist Party during the course of your career in it ? 

Did they party undertake what we would call political subversion, 
to undertake to impress its line, either upon the Congress or upon 
the State governments ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall that there were several attempts, including the 
Rosenberg case, of trying to get people to send letters and cards to 
Congressmen. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have any information respecting the position 
of the Communist Party on the Walter-McCarran Immigration and 
Nationality Act? 

Mr. Childs. It is possible that was among some of the legislation. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have any information respecting directives of 
the Communist Party to its comrades to send letters under false 
names on political issues to editors of various newspapers ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall that persons did send letters to editors, and 
the letters were signed with assumed names, under their true names. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have any information respecting activities 
of the Communist Party to try to defeat the Smith Act, anti-Com- 
munist legislation, or the Internal Security Act of 1950 ? 



75146— 5( 



3516 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. I recall that they were very disturbed about 

the Smith Act, particularly Smith Act trials. 

Mr. Arens. What did the Communist Party do in regard to the 
trials or in regard to the act itself ? 

Mr. Childs. They were always trying to portray the trials as re- 
lated to some other subject or tried to get it off the real charges that 
those people were under. 

Mr. Arens. What is the Daily Worker ? 

Mr. Childs. The Daily Worker is the daily newspaper which is 
published and supported by the Communist Party, from what I 
understood in the paper. 

Mr. Arens. Is the Daily Worker also a telegraph agency from 
Communist Party headquarters to the comrades to tell the comrades 
what to do and what line to take ? 

Mr. Childs. I would say that the Daily Worker reflected the 
party's position at that particular period — the tactical position. 

Mr. Arens. Does the Daily Worker likewise reflect the open Com- 
munist Party activities as distinguished from the undercover activi- 
ties of the Communist Party ? 

Mr, Childs. I would say that it generally reflects the open activities. 

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Arens, at this point I would like the witness 
to further identify the Rosenberg case activities, unless you intend to 
go into it. 

Mr. Arens. I have that as the next item. 

(The chairman returned to the room.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Childs, I have before you now a photostatic copy 
of an article appearing in the Communist Daily Worker for March 6, 
1956. entitled, "Sobell Committee Organizer Finds New Spirit in 
South," which is related in an interview in the Communist Daily 
Worker with one Aaron, A-a-r-o-n, Schneider, S-c-h-n-e-i-d-e-r. He 
tells in this interview of a trip or series of trips which he made to 
the South, including a trip to Winston-Salem for the purpose of 
organizing certain activities, particularly with reference to Sobell. 

I ask if you have any information on the basis of your back- 
ground and experience respecting the Sobell committee, and its ac- 
tivities within this area ? 

You know, of course, that Morton Sobell was convicted with 
the Rosenbergs and is now in the penitentiary serving a 30-year 
sentence ? 

Mr. Childs. I do not recall having any information about the Sobell 
committee in my association with the party. 

Mr. Arens. Do you recall the formation of committees in the South- 
land respecting the Rosenbergs and clemency for the Rosenbergs 
and that sort of activity by the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall that the party attempted to get as many peo- 
ple as possible to write both the isupreme Court and Members of Con- 
gress to reprieve the death sentence of the Rosenbergs. 

The Chairman. I think in that connection you might be interested 
in knowing that our investigation disclosed that the National Com- 
mittee to Secure Justice in the Rosenberg Case collected over a quarter 
of a million dollars, of which the children received only about $1,200. 

Mr. Kearney. Also, Mr. Chairman, it has been shown by investiga- 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMTJNIST ACTIVITIES 3517 

tion that there have been no taxes paid to the Government on that sum 
raised by the National Rosenberg committee. 

The CuAiEMAN. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Childs, I lay before you a photograph and ask 
you if you can identify that photograph. ( See p. 3605. ) 

Mr. Childs. This appears to be the farmhouse of William Binkley, 
where the party school was held in 1952. 

Mr. Arens. Would you spell his name? 

Mr. Childs. I am not certain about the spelling, B-i-n-k-1-y, or 
-e-y. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere is this farmhouse located ? 

Mr. Childs. It was in Walnut Cove. 

Mr. Arens. Where is Walnut Cove ? 

Mr. Childs. It is near Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about the Communist Party school 
you just mentioned ? 

Mr. Childs. This party school was held in August of 1952. I was 
invited to attend this school by Junius Scales. The arrangements for 
the school were made through the party and Scales in discussing the 
school — or among the things discussed — was that there was to be 
no mail to or from the school, and no telephone calls, and no one would 
be permitted to leave the school before it was over. 

Mr. Arens. Was that school exclusively for persons who were re- 
liably known to be Communists? 

Mr, Childs. It was explained to me that the school was for the out- 
standing cadres of the party in Virginia and North Carolina. 

Mr. Arens. Wlien was this school held ? 

Mr. Childs. In the early part of August 1952. 

Mr. Arens. What transpired at the school and who was in at- 
tendance ? 

Mr. Childs. First, about attendance, among those people I can 
recall William Binkley — excuse me. These people were either there 
throughout the school or at one time associated with the school, or 
came to the school and left earlier. 

Mr, Arens. Were they known by you or identified to you as mem- 
bers of the Communist conspiracy ? 

Mr, Childs, It was explained to me that only party members 
would be permitted to attend the school. 

Mr. Arens, What precautions were taken for security purposes? 

Mr. Childs. Among those, before the school and during the school, 
we were instructed that we were to use assumed names, and each 
person, T recall, with the possible exception of Scales, was given a 
name other than his true name which was to serve to prevent the pos- 
sibility of finding the true identification. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us what transpired at this school ? 

Mr. Chii,ds. The scliool had a daily schedule which generally con- 
sisted of an assignment in the mornings, and later you had a formation 
of three groups which had a group leader, and these groups then would 
break up and discuss the theoretical assignments which had been made. 
Usually til ere was a problem assigned. You could discuss the problem 
and come back. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us the nature of the problem assigned and the 
subject matter discussed. 



3518 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Childs. May I make one statemeut about the testimony relating 
to the school ? 

Mr. Aeens. Surely. 

Mr. Childs. At tlie trial in Greensboro of Junius Scales I had at my 
disposal there the notes which I had taken at the school. Without 
those notes, I would try to be rather general in order to keep the record 
straight, that the correct discussion is from the notes. 

Mr. Arens. Just proceed at your own pace. 

Mr. Childs. Among those problems which were assigned, I recall 
specifically the one where a worker in a plant would come up and ask a 
person, "We in the United States are fighting against Russian imper- 
ialism," and then that was generally one problem, and we would discuss 
how we would answer such a problem. 

Mr. Arens. You mean, I take it, to pervert the ideological concept 
against the United States and for Soviet Russia, is that correct ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. Among the solutions or answers to that 
problem would be that it is reaJly not the Soviet Union which is 
imperialist, it is the United States. 

Another problem was about the Communist Party and the Consti- 
tution. I recall something along the line when tlie problem was — well 
you Communists are against the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, 
and you want to destroy those — and the Communist Party answer 
would generally be along the line, that it really was not out to destroy 
them and that it was really the capitalists who are out to destroy the 
Constitution and the Bill of Rights. 

Mr. Arens. Were there any discussions or directives concerning 
the attitude of the Communist Party with respect to the House Un- 
American Activities Committee and other committees which are 
attempting to investigate and expose communism ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall that they looked upon almost all of this type of 
committee as really being, to use their terminology, methods of sup- 
pression of the liberation movement in the United States. 

Mr. Arens. What was the attitude of the Communist Party toward 
the FBI? 

Mr. Childs, They made several comments about the FBI. The at- 
titude toward the FBI was that it was doing a far better job compared 
to its size and that it was the worst organization in the country for 
suppression of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any occasion, in the course of your career 
in the Communist Party to have sessions with people who were about 
to go into the Armed Forces ? 

Mr. Childs. I i-ecall that a party was held in the early part of 1951 
for two people who at that time had looked as if they were going into 
the Armed Forces. 

Mr. Arens. Where was this party held ? 

Mr. Childs. At Chapel Hill. 

Mr. Arens. Can you identify those present ? 

Mr. Childs. The people were Emanuel Coutlakis and myself. 

Mr. Arens. You have already identified Coutlakis on this record. 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat transj)ired at this party ? 

Mr. Childs. It was just generally a party. We were presented an 
autographed copy of William Z. Foster's book, I believe, something 
about the history of the Americas. 



mVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3519 

Mr. Arens. Were any instructions given to the comrade who did go 
into the Armed Forces with respect to his activities on behalf of the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Childs. I do not know as far as Couthakis' instructions were 
concerned from the party. I only know those which were given to me. 

Mr. Arens. What were the instructions given to you ? 

Mr. Childs. Scales at one time had told me that he wanted, as soon 
as I got in on furlough, the possibility of my arranging to see him 
when I came in. I do not recall exactly at this time who the indi- 
vidual was, but I was also told to try to indoctrinate people in the 
Armed Forces. 

Mr. Arens. Indoctrinate them with Communist Party ideology ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. We had a little diversion there for a few moments. 
Would you proceed to identify again for us the names of the people 
who were in attendance at this school, this Communist Party leader- 
ship training school held at the farm ? 

Mr. Childs. I will try to start all over on those. 

I recall William Binkley, his wife, and Nat Bond. 

Mr. Arens. What was I3inkley's wife's name? 

Mr. Childs. I think it was Eleanor. 

Mr. Arens. Eleanor? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir, and Nat Bond. 

Mr. Arens. Is that Nathaniel Bond ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Could you further identify him, please, sir? 

Mr. Childs. At that time or before that, he had been associated with 
the Daniels Defense Committee and the Progressive Party. Other 
people present were George Van Camp, Jerry Van Camp, Betty Tyree. 

Mr. Arens. Will you identify the Van Camps for us ? 

Mr. Childs. George Van Camp at one time while I was in Winston- 
Salem was a member of one of the clubs I was a member of. Jerry 
Van Camp was in Chapel Hill. 

Mr. Arens. What did he do thei^, do you know ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall he was a student at Chapel Hill. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know where he is now ? 

Mr. Childs. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. And the other individual? 

Mr. Childs. Betty Tyree. 

Mr. Arens. Would you spell that last name ? 

Mr. Childs. T-y-r-e-e. 

Mr. Arens. Identify her, please. 

Mr. Childs. She and Bill Robertson at one time went to a peace 
crusade in Washington, and she later married George Van Camp. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know where she is located now ? 

Mr. Childs. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have another name for us ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. There was a representative from the national 
committee to whom we referred as "Abe." I do not know his correct 
name. And there was the district organizer. 

Mr. Arens. Excuse me a moment. Do you know where "Abe" came 
from? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Where ? 



3520 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Childs. New York City, national committee. 

Mr. Akens. Did he tell you with what division or unit of the na^ 
tional committee of the Communist Party he was identified ? 

Mr. Childs. I do not recall that; no, sir. The district organizer, 
we called Bob at the party school. I later identified hiin from photo- 
graphs as being Bob Handman. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a further description of Handman and 
his activities or background ? 

Mr. Childs. He was the district organizer for the State of Virginia. 

Mr. Arens. He came in from Virginia to this Communist Party 
leadership training school ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Childs. That is my understanding. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have another name for us ? 

Mr. Childs. There was Viola Brown who used the name Vera at the 
party school. 

Mr. Arens. Could you give us a description of her, please? 

Mr. Childs. Viola Brown lived in Winston- Salem. 

Mr. Arens. V-i-o-l-a B-r-o-w-n? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know what her activity was in Winston-Salem? 

Mr. Childs. I recall she was associated with several organizations 
in Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. What organizations? 

Mr. Childs. I recall she was associated with the Food and Tobacco 
Workers Union. 

Mr. Arens. Did she work among them in Communist Party 
activity ? 

Mr. Childs. I do not know how she worked as far as the party 
was concerned. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have another name for us? 

Mr. Childs. There was some girl from Durham whose name I recall 
as "Blanche." 

Mr. Arens. Could you give us a little further identification of 
"Blanche"? 

Mr. Childs. I recall at some time or another she got in trouble in 
Durham over some petition. That is all I can identify her by. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have another name for us, please, sir? 

Mr. Childs. That is all I can recall at this time. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of a William McGirt? 

Mr. Childs. At one time, right near the end of the school, William 
McGirt and Warren Williams came to the school. 

Mr. Arens. Spell McGirt's name, please. 

Mr. Childs. M-c-G-i-r-t. 

Mr. Arens. Will you give us as full a description as possible of 
William McGirt? 

Mr. Ctitlds. Do you want in general what I understood his position 
in the Communist Party to be ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Childs. I understood that McGirt was a member of the Com- 
munist Party, and at one time I was told by Scales if I ever needed 
to see him that I was to contact McGirt and McGirt would get in 
contact with Scales and then we would meet. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know where he was from ? 

Mr. Childs. No, sir. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3521 

Mr. Akens. Do you know where he is now ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall at that time he was living in Winston- Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Does that complete the list of persons known by you 
to have been comrades of the Communist conspiracy at this leadership 
training school on the farm here in North Carolina? 

Mr. Guilds. That is all that I recall at this time. There is a possi- 
bility of others. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your career in the Communist 
Party, did you know a person by the name of William Evans ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your acquaintanceship with 
him. 

Mr. Childs. After I returned to school — after I came to school 
at the University at Chapel Hill — my contact with the party was 
through Bill Evans. 

Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your acquaintanceship with 
him? 

Mr. Childs. We had a limited contact as far as the party was con- 
cerned. My relationship with him in the party was that he was my 
contact with the party. I would pay him dues and attend some 
meetings. 

Mr. Arens. Was he known by you to have been a member of the 
Communist conspiracy? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. When did you last see him or have any contact with 
him? 

Mr. Childs. That was the day before I took the stand in Greens- 
boro. 

Mr. Arens. In what year ? 

Mr. Childs. 1955. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a further identification or description 
of William Evans? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. At one time I recall he worked at the Ervin 
Mills. 

Mr. Arens. Where? 

Mr. Childs. In Durham. 

Mr. Arens. Are there any other persons whose names come to 
you who, were to your mind, and to a moral certainty, known 
by you to have been members of the Communist conspiracy during 
your career in the Community Party ? 

Mr. Childs. There is a possibility of other names. 

Mr. Arens. Am I clear in my impression from your testimony that 
during your career in the Communist Party, the party had strict 
security measures whereby the members of one cell were isolated 
so far as feasible from the members of another cell throughout the 
State? 

Mr. Childs. This isolation was so far as the other group knowing 
that these other people were members of the party. 

Mr. Arens. But you knew of the existence of other Communist 
cells throughout the State? 

Mr. Childs. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And you came out from under cover in the Communist 
Party in April 1955, is that correct? 



3522 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. About less than a year ago ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Childs, on the basis of your background and ex- 
perience in the Communist Party, particularly in view of your obvious 
youth, do you have any observations to make today respecting the 
threat of the Communist Party, and the scope of its intense activity, 
and whether or not it is dangerous to the security of this Nation ? 

Mr. Childs. My personal opinion on that question is that I con- 
sider during this present period which we are entering that the Com- 
munist Party is a far greater threat than it has been in the past. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have any observations to make with reference 
to the multiplication of force by the Communist Party, that is, the 
extent to which 1 or 2 members of the Communist conspiracy can 
multiply their effectiveness by operating through others ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Give us your best appraisal of that situation and illus- 
trate it, if you can, sir. 

Mr. Childs. One of the techniques which they have used is to 
get people or a person to join an organization and develop into a role 
of leadership in that organization, and at the same time influence 
the way the organzation moves. 

Mr. Arens. Has there been in your experience a policy of the Com- 
munist Party to get the comrades into a legitimate, non-Communist 
organization in order to attempt to pervert the objectives of the non- 
Communist organization, or to use it? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us an illustration of that? 

Mr. Childs. I recall at the party school that in discussing the 
Korean war in relationship to one of the weaknesses of the party at 
that time was that it was concentrating on getting members into 
veterans' organizations. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat veterans' organizations? 

Mr. Childs. I recall that they were interested in all veterans' organ- 
izations. 

Mr. Arens. Did they try to get the comrades into the American 
Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars ? 

Mr. Childs. I recall that they made attempts to get into general vet- 
erans' organizations. 

Mr. Kearney. Do you know whether the Communist Party was 
successful in the two organizations that counsel just enumerated? 

Mr. Childs. No, sir. 

Mr. Kearney. Did William Binkley teach a course in the leader- 
ship training school of the Communist Party which we were 
discussing? 

Mr. Childs. I do not recall Binkley's teaching a course, but I do 
recall that he gave one of the night speeches. 

Mr. Kearney. Are there other observations you would care 
to make before this committee of the Congress respecting your 
experiences in the Communist Party or your appraisal of the threat 
which it poses today to this Nation ? 

Mr. Childs. I think that my previous statement on the threat is 
about all I have to say. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3523 

Mr. Kearney. What is the ultimate aim of the Communist con- 
spiracy in the United States? 

Mr. Guilds. To overthrow the United States Government. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, if you please, that will conclude the 
staff interrogation of the witness. 

The Chairman. Any questions, Mr. Willis ? 

Mr. Willis. No. 

The Chairman. Mr. Kearney ? 

Mr. Kearney. I have none, Mr. Chairman, but I think the witness 
should be complimented very highly for his frank and vountary ap- 
pearance, and information given to tliis committee. 

The Chairman. I want to join with you. General. No one can fore- 
tell the extent of the value of your appearance here today. It might be 
equal to that of two divisions of infantry. Who knows? But you 
have made a considerable contribution to the security of this lie- 
public. For that the American people are indebted to you. 

It is difficult to do what you have done. I know the charges 
that are made — informer, stool pigeon, that sort of thing. Let me 
tell you something, young man. AVlien anyone says that about you, 
you just be proud of the fact that that particular person described 
you in that fashion, because that person's iriendship is something that 
no decent person would want. 

In excusing you, I repeat we are deeply indebted to you. 

At this point the committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes. 

(Present at the taking of the recess were Representatives Walter, 
Willis, and Kearney.) 

Mr. Jones. Let the record show that Mr. Childs is being kept under 
subpena for the duration of the hearing. 

(Brief recess.) 

The Chairman. The committee will be in order. 

(Present following the recess were Representatives Walter, Willis, 
and Kearney.) 

The Chairman. Call your next witness, please. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. John V. Myers, please come forward. Kindly 
remain standing and raise your right hand to be sworn. 

The Chairman. Do you swear that the testimony you are about 
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God? 

Mr, Myers. I do so swear. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN V. MYERS, ACCOMPANIED BY COTJNSEL, 

JAMES D. GILLILAND 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly have a seat? Please identify your- 
self by name, residence, and occupation. 

Mr. Myers. My name is John V. Myers. I am unemployed since 
receiving the subpena. My residence, Buies Creek. 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena 
which was served upon you by the House Coihmittee on Un-American 
Activities ? 

Mr. Myers. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel? 

Mr. Myers. Yes, sir. 



3524 INVESTIGATION OF COMJVIUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself for the record? 

Mr. GiLLiLAND. James D. Gilliland, attorney, Warrenton, N. C. 

Mr. Aeens. Mr. Myers, please tell us where you were born and a 
word about your early life. 

Mr. Myers. I was born in Sharpsburg, N. C, which is about 4 
miles from Rocky Mount. 

Mr. Arens. When was that ? 

Mr. Myers. 1916. 

Mr. Arens. Will you please give us a brief resume of your educa- 
tional background ? 

Mr. Myers. I attended elementary school in Kentucky, Indiana, 
and Mooresville, N. C. I was graduated from Wake Forest College 
in 1938, summa cum laude, with a B. A, degree. I then taught French 
and did graduate work at Syracuse University for 2 years, receiving 
my M. A. degree in romance languages. 

Mr. Arens. When did you receive your M. A. degree, please, sir? 

Mr. Myers. In 1940. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly continue if you have any further educational 
training. 

Mr. Myers. I then received a teaching fellowship at the University 
of North Carolina, where I taught French until I was inducted into 
the Army in 1942. Upon return from the Army in 1946, I continued 
my graduate work and taught French and Spanish. 

Mr. Arens. Where ? 

Mr. Myers. At the University of North Carolina. 

In 1949 I refused to fill out questions concerning political beliefs 
and associations on a personnel sheet passed out to the members of the 
faculty, and appended to the application a statement concerning the 
principles that I stood for, refusing to fill out that portion. This was 
considered an incomplete application. I was subsequently not rehired. 
However, I continued on in graduate school until I went to the Sor- 
bonne in Paris to study old French literature and dialects. 

Mr. Arens. AVlien was that, please, sir? 

Mr. Myers. That was in 1950. 

Mr. Kearney. May I ask a question ? On your trip to the Sorbonne, 
did you study there under the GI bill of rights ? 

Mr. Myers. Yes, sir, I was studying under the GI bill of rights. 

Mr. Arens. Will you continue, please, sir, on your career. We are 
up to 1950 and you are studying at the Sorbonne, France. 

Mr. Myers. Yes, sir. I returned in 1952 and took a job at Campbell 
College. 

Mr. Arens. Can you identify Campbell College, please? 

Mr. Myers. Campbell College is a Baptist sponsored junior college, 
also offering 2 years of high school work. Its aim is to give a Chris- 
tian liberal arts education at a minimum cost 

Mr. Arens. Where is it located, please ? 

Mr. Myers. To the youth, particularly of that area. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere is it located, please ? 

Mr. Myers. It is located at Buies Creek. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you engaged at Campbell 
College? 

Mr. Myers. At Campbell College I taught French and Spanish. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you employed at Campbell College? 

Mr. Myers. I was employed from the fall of 1952 until last Monday. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3525 

Mr. Arens. Then what happened last Monday ? 

Mr. Myers. Last Monday it was announced that my connection 
with the school was severed. 

Mr. Arens. May we now revert to the series of activities in which 
you were engaged. Where did you serve in the Army in 1942? 

Mr. Myers. In 1942, 1 served at Fort Jackson. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity? 

Mr. Myers. I was in the hospital due to an arm injury. 

Mr. Arens. Was that the extent of your activities in your career 
in the army? 

Mr. Myers. Oh, no, sir. After recuperating I went to Camp 
Wheeler for basic training. 

Mr, Arens. Tell us where you went from there. 

Mr. Myers. From there I was sent to Bermuda for 9 months for 
garrison duty. Then I returned to the States to various camps and 
went to the Pacific. 

Mr. Arens. Would you mind pausing there a moment to tell us 
in what branch of the Army you served ? 

Mr. Myers. I was in the 77th Infantry Division. 

Mr. Arens. What post did you have within the 77th Infantry 
Division ? 

Mr. Myer. I was a private in the infantry. 

Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please, on your career. 

Mr. Myers. In the Pacific I fought in the battles of Guam, Leyte, 
Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. I was wounded three times, received also 
the Bronze Star for action on Iwo Jima. 

Mr. Arens. May we refer to this questionnaire in 1949 to which 
you alhided ? What was the question that you would not answer on 
this questionnaire? 

Mr. Myers. It was a personnel sheet. 

Mr. Arens. That was when you were at the University of North 
Carolina, is that correct? 

Mr. Myers. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Are you pausing now because you are looking for the 
questionnaire ? 

Mr. Myers. Yes, sir. This statement involves my political prin- 
ciples and beliefs. 

The Chairman. What was the statement ? 

Mr. Myers. I am going to decline to answer the question concerning 
this statement. 

The Chairman. For what reason ? 

Mr. Myers. Because it involves my political beliefs. 

The Chairman. For what reason do you decline to answer the ques- 
tion? 

Mr. Myers. I base my declining to answer the question on the Con- 
stitution of the United States, the first amendment, "Congress shall 
make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting 
the free exercise thereof ; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the 
press ; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition 
the Government for a redress of grievances." 

The Chairman. Will you tell me what that article of the Constitu- 
tion has to do with the question you have been asked ? 



3526 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Myers. I also base my declining to answer the question on the 
fifth amendment, which states, "because the answer to this question 
miffht tend to incriminate me." 

Mr. AitENS. I don't believe you understand the question that is pend- 
ing now, or at least it is puzzling to me. What was the question that 
you would not answer on the questionnaire ? 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Myers. I have already stated that the question concerned my 
political beliefs and associations, and I have already given the grounds. 

The Chairman. That is not responsive to the question. It is the 
duty of the chairman to advise you that is not a responsive answer. 
Will you read the question to him, Mr. Arens ? 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Reporter, would you read the question, please? 

(Question read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Myers. Sir, since it was a matter of public record, I have de- 
cided to answer that question. I do not have an exact copy of the 
personnel sheet, but to the best of my recollection the questions on the 
personnel sheet were first of all relevant questions concerning scholastic 
background and so forth, and then there was a question requesting 
all faculty members to list all the organizations to which they have 
ever belonged, and the next question was 

The Chairman. Just a moment. Is that the question that you 
would not answer ? 

Mr. Myers. There were two questions. That is one of them. 

The Chairman. You would not answer the question as to the or- 
ganizations to which you belonged ? 

Mr. Myers That is right. 

The Chairman. Is that because you were ashamed of some of the 
organizations ? 

Mr. Myers. That is correct. I have not completed my answer. Con- 
gressman Walter. I am answering your question in proper procedure. 

The Chairman. I want to know the reason why you do not answer. 

Mr. Myers. The question was. Congressman Walter — will the re- 
porter read the question back to Congressman Walter ? 

The Chairman. I do not want him to read it. I know what it is. 
Did you decline to answer the question because you were ashamed to 
admit membership in certain organizations ? 

Mr. Myers. Congressman Walter, I am answering the question 
read to me by the reporter which was, "What were the questions that 
you refused to answer ?" 

The Chairman. No. I am asking you another question. 

Mr. Myers. I have not completed answering the first. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. Just make a speech and then we will 
ask you a question. 

Mr. Myers. The first question was 

The Chairman. We know the first one. We want to know the sec- 
ond one now. 

Mr. Myers. The second one was, to the best of my recollection, 
this question : "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the 
Communist Party or of any organization dominated or controlled 
to your knowledge by them ? If so, please explain fully." 

The Chairman. Now, I will ask j^ou the same question. Are you 
now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3527 

Mr. Myers. Would you please repeat the question ? 

The Chairman. Are you now or have you ever been a member of 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Myers. Sir, I shall decline to answer that question for the fol- 
lowing reasons: No. 1 is the 10th amendment, which retains for the 
States those powers not specifically granted to the Federal Govern- 
ment in the Constitution. The State determines the election procedure. 
The State has granted the citizens the right to a secret ballot. 

The Chairman. Let me interrupt you at that point. 

Mr. Myers. If the Federal Government has the right 

The Chairman. Do I understand that if the name of the Commu- 
nist Party is on the ballot in North Carolina 

Mr. Myers. If the Federal Government has the right to force me 
to say if I am a Communist or not, the Federal Government also 
could assume the right to question me as to whether I am a Democrat 
or Republican. 

The Chairman. We have that right. Nobody has ever questioned 
it. 

Mr. Myers. This would undermine and weaken the value of secrecy 
of ballot, which we regard highly because it protects those who vote 
for minority parties from retaliation from those in the majority. 

The Chairman. I do not know what the law of North Carolina is, 
but I know before I can vote in Pennsylvania I have to go up to the 
polls and register, and I am very proud to register that I am a 
Democrat. 

;Mr. Myers. I also stand on the first — 

]\Ir. Arens. Just a moment, Mr. Witness. Do you contend that the 
Communist Party is a bonafide political party or is it a conspiracy? 

Mr. Myers. Mr. Counsel, I have not yet completed giving the reasons 
for declining to answer the question. 

The Chairman. You have gone over the 10th amendment. Let us 
start another one. 

Mr. Myers. Now I come to the first amendment — 

that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or 
prohibiting the free exercise thereof: or abridging the freedom of speech or of 
the press ; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the 
Government for a redress of grievances. 

I also stand on the fifth amendment because this answer might tend 
to incriminate me either way I might answer it, and the fifth amend- 
ment declares that a person shall not be required to testify against 
himself. 

The Chairman. You have read only part of the fifth amendment. 
Why do you not go on and read the balance of it ? A person shall not 
be required to testify against himself — go on from there — in any crim- 
inal proceeding. I think that is the language. 

Mr. Myers. The fifth amendment states : 

No person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise iJifamous crime, 
unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising 
in the land or naval forces, or in the militia when in actual service in time of 
war or public danger ; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be 
twice put in jeopardy of life or limb ; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case 
to be a witness against himself 

The Chairman. In a criminal case. This is not a criminal case. 



3528 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Myers. You asked me to read the entire amendment. That is 
what I am going to do. 

The Chairman. This is not a criminal case. I think you ought to be 
reminded of that. 

Mr. Myers. May I finish answering the question you asked me ? 

The Chairman. I know it very well. Just do not bother reading. 
Proceed, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. Now. you said to the committee a moment ago that you 
didn't want to be placed in a position of revealing information re- 
specting an identification with a political party. Tell this committee 
whether or not you honestly feel the Communist Party is a political 
party as distinguished from a criminal conspiracy. 

Mr. Myers. I shall decline to answer that question basing my re- 
fusal on the fifth amendment, because the answer might tend to in- 
criminate me. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you would tell this 
committee whether or not you have been a member of the Communist 
Party you would be supplying information which could be used 
against you in a criminal proceeding? 

(Witness consults with his counsel.) 

Mr. Myers. I shall decline to answer that question because an 
answer might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be 
ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question. 

]\Ir. Myers. I shall, sir, decline to answer that question because 
either way I might answer it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Arens. About the time you were served with your subpena did 
you issue a statement to the press substantially as follows : 

I wish to inform my friends and the people of this State that I shall reveal 
before this committee (namely, the House Un-American Activities Committee) 
neither my own political beliefs and associations nor those of anyone else. 

Is that the essence of the statement you issued ? 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Myers. May 1 ask the Chair for a ruling on a question I may 
ask? 

The Chairman. No. You have counsel who has put words in your 
mouth on every question that has been asked you, so why ask me any 
questions ? 

Mr. Myers. A document has been introduced here. Will the coun- 
sel read the entire document ? 

Mr. Arens. Did you in essence make that statement to the public 
press, that you will reveal before the House Un-American Activities 
Committee neither your political beliefs or associations nor those of 
anyone else? 

Mr. Myers. Mr. Counsel, when I quoted the fifth amendment. Con- 
gressman Walter asked me to read the entire amendment and I did so. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully ask that the witness be 
ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. That answer is not responsive. We are not enjoy- 
ing this. 

Mr. GiLLiLAND. Will you let him finish this? 

The Chairman. I know all about the fifth amendment. I have 
heard his kind of people invoke it hundreds of times. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES 3529 

Mr. GiLLTLAND, He may have something else. 

The Chairman. The fifth amendment is the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question or place himself in 
contempt of this committee. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question of whether 
or not you made the statement Mr. Arens has just attributed to you. 

Mr. Myers. May I ask that the reporter read the question ? 

The Chairman. Let us ask a new question and save time. 

Mr. Arens. Did you make a public statement to the effect that you 
would not reveal before this committee, the House Un-American Ac- 
tivities Committee, your political beliefs or 3'our associations? 

Mr. Myers. I shall decline to answer that question basing myself 
on the first amendment which guarantees freedom of the press. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that he be ordered and directed 
to answer the question. 

Mr. Myers. And the fifth amendment, because this question might 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question because 
the freedom of the press is certainly not involved. The press merely 
published what you purportedly said to them. You are directed to 
answer the question. 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Myers. I made this statement believing that the Constitution is 
a living document, and not something to be embalmed under helium 
and glass. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever belonged to an organization which is 
dedicated to the forcible overthrow of this Government and the de- 
struction of the Constitution of the United States? 

Mr. Myers. I shall refuse to answer that question because either way 
I might answer — either way I could answer — might tend to incrimi- 
nate me. 

Mr. Kearney. If you had never belonged to an organization dedi- 
cated to the overthrow of this Government b}^ force and violence, 
would you so answer this committee? 

Mr. Myers. Will the reporter read back the question? 

Mr. Kearney. I will withdraw it. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, in the presence of this witness I re- 
spectfully suggest that Mr. Ralph Clontz be requested to come for- 
ward and be given the oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth. Mr. Clontz, will you please come forward? 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand. Do you swear that the 
testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 
Mr. Clontz. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF RALPH C. CLONTZ, JR. 

Mr. Arens. Please have a seat right there. Are you Ralph C. 
Clontz, Jr.? 

Mr. Clontz. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Clontz, at the behest of and in cooperation with 
the Federal Bureau of Investigation, did you join the Communist 
Party? 



3530 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Clontz. Yes, sir, I did. 

Mr. Arens. When did you join the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Clontz. I joined the Communist Party in January 1950 in 
Chapel Hill, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. How lonp; were you a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Clontz. Well, that requires a technical answer. The com- 
rades have not really gotten around to kicking me out yet, although 
I feel since I testified in January 1954 I have been rather unwelcome 
in party circles. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Com- 
munist Party, did you come to know a person as a Communist by the 
name of John V. Myers? 

Mr. Clontz. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Arens. Do you see in the courtroom today the person who was 
known by you to have been a member of the Communist Party by the 
name of John V. Myers ? 

Mr. Clontz. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Arens. Will you kindly look him in the eye and identify him — 
face him — before this committee as the person who was known by you 
as a member of the Communist conspiracy ? 

Mr. Clontz. That individual there is John V. Myers, known to me 
as a member of the Communist conspiracy in Chapel Hill. [Witness 
standing and pointing.] 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Myers, you have just heard the testimony of Mr. 
Kalph Clontz under oath when he looked you in the eye and identified 
you as a person known to him to have been a member of the Commu- 
nist conspiracy. Now, will you, while you are under oath, tell this 
committee whether Mr. Clontz is lying or telling the truth. 

Mr. GiLLiLANi). May we first cross examine the witness who has 
testified against Mr. Myers? 

The Chairman. No. That is contrary to the committee rules. 

Mr. Arens. Will you tell the committee, Mr. Myers, whether or 
not Mr. Clontz is lying or telling the truth? 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Myers. Sir, I shall decline to answer the question, because 
either way I answer it, the answer might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee whether or not Ralph Clontz was telling the truth when he 
said he knew you as a member of the Communist conspiracy you 
would be supplying information which could be used against you in 
a criminal proceeding? 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. My7<:rs. I shall decline to answer that question because either 
way I might answer it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be 
ordered and directed to answer this last question. 

The Chairman. You ai'c directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Myers. I shall decline to answer this question because any way 
I might answer it, it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest Mr. Clontz be 
temporarily excused. 

The Chairman. Will he be called again? 

Mr. Arens. He probably will, Mr. Chairman. 

(Witness temporarily excused.) 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3531 

Mr. Arens. My. Myers, I lay before you a photostatic copy of a 
document entitled, "A Note on the Delegates" on which appears the 
names of persons identified in this document as delegates for the 
formation of a new political party. I ask you whether or not you can 
or will identify this document for the record. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

(Witness reads document.) 

Mr. Myers. May I read this document to you ? 

Mr. Arens. It is agreeable with me. I have read it. 

The Chairman. What is the question, Mr. Arens ? 

Mr. Arens. He wants to know if he can read the document. It is a 
document which, as I have already identified, purports to list the 
names of people who were forming a new political entity here in 
North Carolina. It has among other names the name of John V. 
Myers. 

Mr. Myers. Sir, I am going to decline to answer the question, and 
I shall base my refusal on the first amendment and on the fifth, be- 
cause any answer might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. We might save a lot of time when you decline to 
answer questions by your merely stating, "I decline to answer the 
question on the grounds previously stated." Then it will be under- 
stood by that you mean the first, fifth and I think the tenth amend- 
ment which you invoked a while ago. 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Myers, on this document there appears the type- 
written name "John V. Myers, North Carolina." Do you happen to 
know that person or know how that name happened to appear on this 
document ? 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Myers. I decline for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you would tell this 
committee whether or not this John V. Myers, whose name appears on 
this document, is yourself, that you would be supplying information 
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Myers. I decline for the same reason. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever denied affiliation with the Communist 
conspiracy ? 

Mr. Myers. I decline for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy? 

Mr. Myers. I decline for the same reason. 

Mr. Arens. Do you propose after you are released from your oath 
before this committee and the pains and penalties of perjury, to step 
out in the hall and issue a press statement saying in effect, "Of course 
I am not a Communist, but I would not tell that witch-hunting com- 
mittee I am not a Communist"? Do you propose to take that course 
of action as soon as you are released from your subpena and obligation 
to tell the truth under oath ? 

Mr. Myers. I decline to answer that question. I base it on the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that he be ordered and directed 
to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Myers. I have answered the question. 

75146 — 56 3 



3532 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman, I want to tell you this; if you do make such a 
statement, I will, without the cloak of congressional immunity, stand 
out here and say you are a Communist, and you can have me arrested 
and sue me for damages. 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Myers. That was not a question. That was a speech. It is a 
statement of fact. 

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, if he does make such a statement, I 
respectfully suggest he be brought back under another subpena. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that Avill conclude 
the staff interrogation of this witness. 

The Chairman. Any questions, Mr. Willis? 

Mr. Willis. No. 

The Chairman. General Kearney '( 

Mr. Kearney. Were you a member of the (^ommunist Party when 
you were in the Army in the Pacific? 

(Witness consulted his coiiusel.) 

Mr, Myers, I decline to answer the question for the same reason. 

Mr, Kearney. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Myers. I decline for the same reasons. 

Mr. Kearney. That is all. 

The Chairman. No further questions. The witness is excused. 

( Wit ness excused. ) 

Mr. GiLLiLAND. Does tluit excuse him for good from the subpena? 

The Chairman. He is excused foi' good from the subpena and he 
can get his expenses by signing this voucher. 

Mr. GiLLiLu\ND, Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Arens, If you please, sir, the next witness will be Nathaniel 
Bond. Mr. Bond, will you please come forward ? 

Mr. Bond. May I make a request before the interrogation begins? 

Mr, Arens. Would you please remain standing and raise your right 
hand to be sworn? 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Bond, I do, 

TESTIMONY OF NATHANIEL BOND, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
RHODA LAKS and JAMES D. GILLILAND 

Mr. Arens, Have a seat in the witness chair. Please keej) your 
voice up so we can hear you. The acoustics are not too good. Please 
identfy yourself by name, residence, and occupation. 

Mr. Bond, My name is Nathaniel Bond, instructor of language at 
Bluefield State College in Bluefield, W, Va, My home, however, is 
Durham, N. C, 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena 
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American iVctivities? 

Mr. Bond, Yes, 

Mr, Arens, Are you represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Bond. I wanted to make a request. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel? 

Mr. Bond. Yes, t am. 

Mr, Arens, Will coiuisel kindly identify themselves? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3533 

Mr. Bond. I have not had sufficient time. I got my notice on Thurs- 
day. 1 have not had sufficient time for consultation with comisel. 

Mr. Arens. Is the lady to your right your counsel ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Will you kindly identify yourself ? 

Miss Laks. Khoda Laks, 615 Columbus Avenue, New York City. 

Mr. GiLLiLAND. James D. Gilliland, I believe formerly identified 
here. I might say at this time, just briefly, that this man just con- 
tacted me a few minutes ago in the corridor. He just contacted Miss 
Laks, either late last night or this morning, and I have not had time 
to go into the matter with him or to discuss it with him. If you 
give him some extension of time, even if it is only until this after- 
noon, we would have time to consult at lunch time. 

The Chairman. That is not unreasonable. 

Mr. Arens. I think the record should show when he was served. 
I do not want this record to reflect any precipitous action on the part 
of this committee because I am sure he had ample time. 

Mr. Gilliland. Last Thursday. 

Mr. Arens. You were served, were you not, on March 8 ? 

Mr. Bond. Was that last Thursday ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

The Chairman. Have you another witness? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you step aside. You have be«n sworn and you 
will be called this afternoon at some time. 

(Witness temporarily excused.) 

Mr. Arens. William Evans, will you please come forward? 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand. Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Evans. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM EVANS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
RHODA LAKS AND JAMES D. GILLILAND 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc- 
cupation. 

Mr. Evans. My name is William Evans. My address is 404 C 
Street in Durham. I am at present, thanks to you gentlemen, un- 
employed. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you last employed ? 

Mr. Evans. AVhite Furniture Co. 

Mr. Arens. Where is that located? 

Mr. Evans. Hillsboro. 

Mr. Arens. Hillsboro, N. C. ? 

Mr. Evans. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you employed there ? 

Mr. Evans. Finisher. 

Mr. Arens. '\\Tiere and when were you born ? 

Mr. Evans. September 17, 1923, in St. Pauls, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, Mr. Evans, a brief resume of 
your educational background ? 

Mr. Evans. I graduated from St. Pauls High School about 1940. 
I went 1 year to 12th grade in Lumberton until 1941. I attended 



3534 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Davidson College for II/2 years. I volunteered for the Army in 
March 1943. I served from March 1943 until about April 1946. 

Mr. Arens. Where did you serve? 

Mr. Evans. In Europe, in Germany, France, I was discharged in 
1946. I entered the University of North Carolina in 1946, where I 
attended until 1949. I did some further graduate study at Duke. 

]\Ir. Arens. What degrees have you received at those schools? 

Mr. Evans. From University of North Carolina, A. B. and M. A. 
Since discontinuing study at Duke, I have had no further schooling. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, the employments in which you 
have been engaged since you completed your formal education. 

Mr. Evans. I worked for about, I suppose, a few months as a con- 
struction worker, and then as a bricklayer for about 2 years. I worked 
in a cotton mill for a couple of years. I worked in a furniture factory, 
and then perhaps some otlier things in between. I think I have done 
some clerking in stores and a few odd jobs. 

Mr. Arens. Were you here this morning? What time did you 
arrive in the courtliouse this morning? 

Mr. Evans. I believe I was a little late. I think it may have been 
that one witness was testifying when I got here. 

Mr. Arens. Who was testifying when you got here this morning? 

Mr. Evans, I decline to answer that ciuestion, Mr, Cliairman, on 
the grounds that such an answer either way or any way I answer might 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. What criminal offense do you think you might be 
charged with by saying you had heard anyone at all testifying? With 
wl)!it criminal offense do you think you could be chargecl? 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mitte under oath whether or not you knew the person who was testi- 
fying this morning before this committee when you arrived at this 
courthouse you would be supply information which could be used 
against you in a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that 
any way I answer it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that tliis witness 
be ordered and directed to answer the last question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer. 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds, 
sir. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Charles Childs testified this morning under oath 
that while he was a member of the Communist Party he knew you as a 
Communist. Was he lying or was he telling the truth ? 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the grounds as pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact, that you were and are a member of the Commimist conspiracy. 

Mr. Evans. T decline to answer that question on the same grounds I 
have already stated. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us the organizations with which you are identified 
at the present time. You told us a little while ago you are no longer 
identified with this furniture factory. With what organizations or 
groups are you presently identified ? 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 



INVESTIGATION OF COMAIUNIST ACTR'ITIES 3535 

Mr. Evans. I believe this question invades my rights under the 
fifth amendment — under the first amendment and also the fifth amend- 
ment — and I decline to answer on those grounds. 

Mr. Aeens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee under oath the truth as to the organizations witli which you are 
presently identified you would be supplying information which could 
be used against you in a criminal proceeding ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, INIr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Evans. I didn't complete my last answer, Mr. Chairman. I was 
going to say I decline to answer under the fifth and first amendments ; 
that it violates my right of association. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of the American Legion ? 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer. 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Kearney. You decline to answer ? 

The Chairman. What do you think you could be charged with if 
you admitted you were a member of the American Legion ? 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the grounds it might 
incriminate me. 

The Chairman. A moment ago you said thanks to this committee 
you had lost your job. That is not why you lost your job. Thanks 
to yourself you lost your job. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer the question whether or not he is 
affiliated with the American Legion. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question. 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer the question on the grounds that 
in any way I answer might incriminate me. 

Mr. I^arney. Are you a member of any veteran organization? 

Mr. Evans. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a peace partisan ? 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question because is invades my 
right of belief on the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest he be ordered and directed to 
answer that question. 

The Chairman. Since when is it wrong to advocate peace ? 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer the same question on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to deny or affirm 
as a fact, that you were one of the principal motivating and moving 
forces in this State in the circulation of the Stockholm peace peti- 
tions? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the same gi-ounds. 

Mr. Arens. I advise you, sir, that the committee is considering legis- 
lation dealing with the proposed registration of agencies which are 
controlled by the international Communist conspiracy. Therefore, it 
is germane to the work of this committee for us to undertake to 
solicit from you any information you have respecting the circula- 



3536 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

tioii within this State by any organization of petitions instio;ated 
by a foreign power. 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

The Chairman. It is not a question. Mr. Arens was merely point- 
ing out to you what this connnittee is doing because after all we have 
under very active consideration the advisability of amending the 
Foreign Agents' Eegistration Act so as to include the organization 
to which you belonged. 

Mr. Arens. Do you kuow or have you known a person by the name 
of Aaron Schneider ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. Did you meet with Aaron Schneider when he came into 
tliis State just a short time ago on behalf of the National Committee 
to Secure justice for Morton Sobell in the Eosenberg Case^ 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. I ])ut it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact, that in the recent past you did so meet with Aaron Schneider, 
representing the National Committee to Secure Justice for Morton 
Sobell in this State, and that you were instrumental in setting up meet- 
ings for him in this State, including a meeting at Winston-Salem, 
N.C.? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the grounds T pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Kearney. Who was Morton Sobell ( 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that on the grounds ]ireviously 
stated. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. When you were a member of the Armed Forces of the 
United States, did you transmit to any person not authorized by law 
to receive the same, confidential or security information ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr, Evans. I have never committed a disloyal act to my Govern- 
ment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of a conspiracy which is 
designed to overthrow the Government of the United States by force 
and violence ? 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that 
any way I answer might incriminate me. 

Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist discipline when you were 
in the United States Army ? 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the gi-ounds it 
might incriminate me, 

Mr. Arens. Are you today a member of the Communist conspiracy ? 



J 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3537 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Have you advised or consulted with any person known 
by you to be a member of the Communist conspiracy since you received 
your subpena to appear before the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities ? 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Arens. As one who has never, according to your description 
of yourself, committed a disloyal act, I would like to ask if you would 
do a loyal act and give this committe any information you may have 
respecting operations of the Communist conspiracy in this Nation. 

Mr. Evans. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taken an oath of allegiance to the United 
States? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Evans. Mr. Chairman, I previously stated that I have served 
in the Armed Forces, and you take an oath when you go into the 
armed services. 

Mr. Arens. Did you take an oath to support and defend the Con- 
stitution of the United States? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Evans. I believe that is the substance of the oath. 

Mr. Arens. Did you take such an oath? 

Mr. Evans. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Did you at at tlie time you took the oath have a mental 
reservation because of an identitication you had with a conspiracy 
to overthrow the Constitution of tlie United States? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Evans. Mr. (^liairman, I can understand why you pose a ques- 
tion in that way, but I am afraid I will still have to decline to answer 
on the ground I have already stated. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that would con- 
clude the interrogation of this witness. 

The Chairman. Are there any questions from the committee mem- 
bers? If not, the witness is excused from further attendance under 
this subpena. The committee will now stand in recess until 2 o'clock. 

(Present at the time of taking the recess were Representatives Wal- 
ter, Willis and Kearney.) 

(Thereupon, at 12: 05 p. m., Monda}-, March 12, 1956, a recess was 
taken until 2 p. m., the same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION— MONDAY, MARCH 12, 1956 

( Present at the convening of the afternoon session were Representa- 
tives Walter (presiding), Willis, and Kearney.) 
The Chairman. The committee will be in order. 
Call your next witness. 
Mr. Arens. Nathaniel Bond. 

Mr. Arens. Is the record clear that you have been sworn ? 
Mr. Bond. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Yes, he has been sworn. 



3538 INVESTIGATION OF COIVCMXJNIST ACTIVITIES 

TESTIMONY OF NATHANIEL BOND— Resumed 

Mr. Arens. "Will you please identify yourself by name, residence, 
and occupation. 

Mr. Bond. Nathaniel Bond, instructor of language at Bluefield 
State College, Bluefield, W. Va. Originally from Durham, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born? 

Mr. Bond. June 20, 1927. 

Mr. Arens. Where? 

Mr. Bond. In Durham. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, a brief rundown of your educa- 
tional background. 

Mr. Bond. I received all my education, formal, in Durham; ele- 
mentary and high school as well as college. I graduated from the 
Hillside High School in Durham as valedictorian of the class of 1944. 
I graduated from North Carolina College in 1949. 

Mr. Arens, What degree, please ? 

Mr. Bond. A. B. in French, major in French, and minor in German. 
I also did graduate work at North Carolina College, finishing in 1951, 
with a major in French and a minor in English. 

Mr. Arens. What degree did you receive in 1951 ? 

Mr. Bond. In 1951, the M. A. degree. I forgot to mention I gradu- 
ated summa cum laucle in 1949. 

Mr. Arens. Does that complete your formal education? 

Mr. Bond. Yes, it does. 

Mr. Arens. Was it in 1951 that you received your M. A. degree? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly give us a resume of the employments you have 
had since 1951 at the time you completed your formal education. 

Mr. Bond. I have mainly worked with family enterprises of our 
own. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat were those family enterprises ? 

Mr. Bond. And some odd jobs. My mother operates a home for 
the aged and infirm in Durham. I have also worked as a clerk and 
secretary. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere? 

Mr. Bond. With a poultry wholesale business. 

Mr. Arens. "\"\niere? 

Mr. Bond. In Durham, and with my cousin's frosted custard place, 
also as a clerk, in Durham. I think that is the major. 

Mr. Arens. When did you begin your teaching activities? 

Mr. Bond. Really I began just in November, but, however, as a 
student in college in my senior undergraduate year I did tutoring at 
North Carolina College in French and German, and on a scholarship 
basis under the tutorial system. 

Mr. Arens. How many students did you tutor at North Carolina 
College? 

Mr. Bond. Only small groups. That was really special attention 
for certain students. 

Mr. Arens. Were you employed by the school or by the students? 

Mr. Bond. By the school. 

Mr. Arens. WHio was your immediate superior at the North Caro- 
lina College? "Wlio employed yon? 

Mr. Bond. The dean of the college, I suppose. 



INVESTIGATION OF COIMMXTNIST ACTIVITIES 3539 

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us a word about your employment at 
Bluefield? 

Mr. Bond. 1 didn't understand the question. 

Mr. Arens. Give us a word about your employment, Bluefield 
College. Is that a State institution ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes, it is. 

Mr. Arens. Is it an agricultural school or an art school? 

Mr. Bond. No. It is more or less a liberal-arts school. It was a 
teachers' college, but it is no longer listed as a teachers' college. 

Mr. Arens. Is it a coeducational institution ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes, it is. 

Mr. Arens. Is it an institution for mixed races? 

Mr. Bond. It is a mixed institution. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know if it receives Federal funds? 

Mr. Bond. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Arens. ^AHiat is the enrollment of the school? 

Mr. Bond. I think it is about 400 or more. I am not sure. 

Mr. Arens. How many students in your classes ? 

Mr. Bond. I suppose about 

Mr. Arens. Would you please raise your voice. We are having 
difficulty hearing you. 

Mr. Bond. I guess about 50. They are very small classes. There 
are so many small classes because it is a very small school. 

Mr. Arens. When were you actually employed by the Bluefield 
State College in West Virginia? 

Mr. Bond. The first of November 1955. 

Mr. Arens. Are you under a contract? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. How^ long does your contract run ? 

Mr. Bond. Through May, I believe, of this year. 

Mr. Arens. Did you fill out an application at the time you sought 
employment at that college? 

Mr. Bond. No, I didn't go through the formality. 

Mr. Arens. How did you obtain your job there ? 

Mr. Bond. Really, one of the members of the faculty became ill and 
had to leave, so I came more or less as a replacement. I suppose they 
called around to the various colleges and they got my records from 
North Carolina College and called me directly. 

Mr. Arens. Were j^ou on a register of some type as a prospective 
tutor or prospective professor ? 

INIr. Bond. No, I don't think so. 

Mr. Arens. Can you crive us a better idea as to how vou got your 
job at Bluefield State College? 

Mr. Bond. I suppose the authorities there consulted with various 
institutions about persons available who had graduated from their 
particular institutions. 

Mr. Arens. Plow did North Carolina College know that you were 
available? 

Mr. Bond. Because I lived there all my life and I know everybody 
there. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have a teacher's certificate ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. "\^nien did you receive your teacher's certificate? 

Mr. Bond. I guess about 1954 or 1955. 



3540 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Do you presently hold a teacher's certificate in North 
Carolina ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about some of your other activities? 
You have told us about your educational background and experience 
and the fact that you graduated at the top of your class and your 
scholastic achievements. Tell us about some of your other activities. 
We are interested. 

Mr. Bond. I served in the Army for a brief period in the European 
theater. 

Mr. Arens. When ? 

Mr. Bond. After the war was over — from October 1945 through Jan- 
uary 1947. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity did you serve? 

Mr. Bond. I worked in the personnel section as a clerk. 

Mr. Arens. In the personnel section ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes, as clerk for headquarters company in the battalion 
headquarters. 

Mr. Arens. Where? 

Mr. Bond. In Munich, Germany, and also in Schongau, I believe 
was the place. 

Mr. Arens. Were you drafted or did you enlist in the Army ? 

Mr. Bond. I was drafted. 

Mr. Arens. Wlio was your superior ? 

Mr. Bond. Immediate? Warrant Officer Dan Haley from Lou- 
isiana. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat did you do in the line of your duty in this per- 
sonnel section as an enlistee or draftee in the Army in Europe ? Wliat 
did you do ? 

Mr. Bond. My main work was keeping records. 

Mr. Arens. Records of what? 

Mr. Bond. Service records. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have access to any restricted or confidential 
information ? 

Mr. Bond. I don't Icnow that I did. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have access to the personnel records of other 
service persoimel in the United States Army ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Stationed in Germany, is that correct? 

Mr. Bond. Yes ; the regular service records. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do with the records ? 

Mr. Bond. I simply made entries whenever I was requested to do so. 

Mr. Arens. Did you also excerpt from the records information to be 
used in the course of your duties ? 

Mr. Bond. Not that I recall. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us some of the other activities in which you have 
been engaged. You told us about your education, about your Army 
service, and you told us about your teaching activities. Tell us of 
other activities in which you have engaged in this area. 

Mr. Bond. I am a member of the Alpha Kappa Mu Honorary 
Society. 

Mr. Arens. What is that? 

Mr. Bond. An honor society. 

Mr. Arens. A scholastic society? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3541 

Mr. Bond. Yes; it is. 

Mr. Arens. Where is the cliapter of which you are a member ^ 

Mr. Bond. At Bhiefiekl. I became a member at North Carolina 
College. I am merely an assistant adviser to that. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently active in this fraternity ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes ; as assistant adviser. 

Mr. Arens. Does that position carry compensation ? 

Mr. Bond. No. 

Mr. Arens. Is it professional work? 

Mr. Bond. No. 

Mr. Arens. Just a scholastic fraternity. 

Mr. Bond. Yes ; it is. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you been in that fraternity? 

Mr. Bond. I believe I was inducted in 1949. 

Mr. Arens. And are you still active in the fraternity ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Where do the meetings of the fraternity take place? 

Mr. Bond. I won't say I was active in it during that period. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now active in it ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. How often are the meetings held ? 

Mr. Bond. There are no set regular meetings. They just meet 
whenever the group decides. 

Mr. Arens. Where do they meet ? 

Mr. Bond. In the administration building of the school. 

Mr. Arens. At Bluefield State College? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. How many students do you advise or consult ? 

Mr. Bond. Actually I haven't done too much. I am new there. 
I am more or less observing. They already had a director for the 
group. I am more or less observing. 

Mr. Arens. How many are in this gi'oup ? 

Mr. Bond. I think there are only 6 or 7. 

Mr. Arens. Is it a mixed group from the standpoint of the sexes? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And you are the adviser or the assistant adviser? 

Mr. Bond. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You have told us about your education, Army career, 
teaching and advising in this scholastic fraternity. Now tell us 
about some of the other activities in which you have been engaged. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. Could you say specifically what? 

Mr. Arens. You tell us. You have volunteered the fraternity. 
Are there any other groups or any other activities with which you 
have been identified? The committee is interested in your activities. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I am not so sure as to whether or not that particular ques- 
tion may not be a violation of the first amendment. However 

Mr. Arens. Just a minute. Perhaps we can help you a little. 

Mr. Bond. I would say I have been 

Mr. Arens. You have been active in enlightening the youth of the 
schools in this area. You are active in the fraternity. In sharpening 
the cultural aptitudes and attainments of young people, may I ask, 
have you been active in public affairs of any kind, character, or de- 



3542 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

scription which sought to shape the course and destiny of this Nation ? 

Mr. Bond. As I was about to say just a minute a^o, after my "how- 
ever," I don't mind saying that I have been very active in the National 
Association for the Advancement of Colored People. 

Mr. Arens. Let us pause there. I think the committee might be 
interested in your attainments in that field. Do you hold a post in 
the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I think that the same thing applies here. In answering 
that question I may be neglecting to hold up some of my rights under 
the first amendment, but I don't mind saying that I was the first 
president of the North Carolina Conference of Youth Councils and 
College Chapters of the National Association. 

Mr. Arens. When were these youth councils and chapters of the 
NAACP in session ? When were you elected president ? 

Mr. Bond. I believe it was in 1948, the spring of 1948. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere were you located in 1948 ? 

Mr. Bond. In Durham, where I have been most of my life. 

Mr. Arens. Do you still hold that position? 

Mr. Bond. No. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you president of the North Carolina 
Conference of Youth Councils and College Chapters of the National 
Association for the Advancement of Colored People? 

Mr. Bond. I would say about 2 years. 

Mr. Akens. That would be until 1950; is that correct? 

Mr. Bond. Yes; until about 1950. 

Mr. Arens. How many youth councils of the National Association 
for the Advancement of Colored People were under your jurisdiction 
as president of the North Carolina conference ? 

Mr. Bond. I think I would say there were from 15 to 20. 

Mr. Arens. Fifteen to twenty separate councils? 

Mr. Bond. Yes ; some active and some rather inactive. 

Mr. Arens. How many members were there in these councils and 
chapters from 1948 to 1950 when you were president? 

Mr. Bond. I couldn't give you exact figures. 

Mr. Arens. What is your best estimate? 

Mr. Bond. I would say there were certainly less than a thousand. 

Mr. Arens. Were there approximately 1,000? 

Mr. Bond. Including the whole State there may have been. I won't 
be definite on that. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us the precise name of this organization 
of which you were president? 

Mr. Bond. The North Carolina Conference of Youth Councils and 
College Chapters of the NAACP. 

Mr. Arens. In which schools of the State were these councils in 
existence? 

Mr. Bond. I organized a chapter at North Carolina College. 

Mr. Arens. Let us pause right there. I think it would be helpful 
to the committee. How many people were in this council which you 
organized at North Carolina College? 

Mr. Bond. I would say there were roughly 100. Maybe a few more. 
Roughly 100. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMtJNIST ACTIVITIES 3543 

Mr. Arens. Is that council still in existence ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes ; it is. 

Mr. Arens. Is the membership substantially the same? 

Mr. Bond. It may be a bit less, but it is still in existence. 

Mr. Arens, Tell us another council which you organized or which 
was under your supervision when you were president ? 

Mr. Bond. There was a chapter at Shaw University at Ealeigh, 
N.C. 

Mr. Arens. How do you spell it? 

Mr. Bond. Shaw, S-h-a-w. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about that council. Did you organize that one? 

Mr. Bond. No; I did not. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us the membership of that council ? 

Mr. Bond. No. 

Mr. Arens. Is that council still in existence ? 

Mr. Bond. I think so. 

Mr. Arens. What is the approximate membership ? 

Mr. Bond. I haven't heard the recent figures. 

Mr. Arens. Would it be 25 ? 

Mr. Bond. I haven't heard the figures on it. I don't know really. 

Mr. Arens. Let us have another council or chapter which you 
organized or supervised? 

Mr. Bond. There was a chapter, I think, at Joluison C. Smith Uni- 
versity, Charlotte, at the time also. 

Mr. Arens. Did you organize that one? 

Mr. Bond. No. 

Mr. Arens. Is that one still in existence ? 

ISfr. Bond. Yes ; I think so. 

Mr. AriENS. "Wliat is the approximate membership of that one ? 

Mr. Bond. I don't know. 

Mr. xVrens. These councils, I take it, are limited to youth ; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes, only. 

Mr. Arens. What is the minimum age? 

Mr. Bond. Is has varied over the years, but about 21. 

Mr. Arens. The approximate age ? 

Mr. Bond. On up to 25 or 2G, I think. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about another council that you organ- 
ized or was part of the entity of which you were president ? 

Mr. Bond. I think there was a council at Bennett College and 
A. and T. 

Mr. Arens. And those schools are in this State ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes, in Greensboro. 

INIr. Arens. Were those councils likewise under your supervision 
when you were president from 1048 to 1950 ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes; of course, the youth session of the national associa- 
tion was very limited in its activities, because of the financial situat ion 
and so forth, which the youth were not able to meet themselves. Most 
of the direction came really from the local branches of the youth 
council, actually, as well as the organization. 

Mr, Arens. Tell us another council with which you were identified 
or which was under your presidency. 



3544 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTRTTIES 

Mr. Bond. The Durham Youth Council, Chapel Hill, 1 in Tryon, I 
believe, 1 in Lumberton. 

Mr. Arens. Are these youth councils still in existence in the several 
areas you have just identified ? 

Mr. Bond. They go up and down so frequently that I really don't 
know. 

Mr. Arens. Who Avas your successor as president of the youth coun- 
cils of this State? 

Mr. Bond. I believe it was Mr. Robertson, of Durham. 

Mr. Arens. What is his first name ? 

Mr. Bond. I don't recall his first name. 

Mr. Arens. Was it Joseph ? 

Mr. Bond. I am not sure. I don't know. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know who is presently the head of the youth 
councils ? 

Mr. Bond. I think it is the president — the young lady who is presi- 
dent of the college chapter at N. C. C. 

Mr. Arens. N. C. C. is North Carolina College ? 

Mr. Bond. North Carolina College. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know her name ? 

Mr. Bond. I think it is Shirley Temple James. 

Mr. Arens. She is the present chairman or head of these youth 
councils ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes, for the State. 

Mr. Arens. For the State of North Carolina? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know who the vice president is at the present 
time? 

Mr. Bond. No. 

Mv. Arens. What do these youth councils do or what did they do 
when you were president ? 

Mr. Bond. They got their main direction, as I said, from the local 
branches, and usually whatever activities the senior branches were 
engaging in, the youth groups sort of cooperated with them or worked 
separately on the same thing. That is the way it usually worked. 

Mr. Arens. Do these youth councils have a program that they want 
to put across ? 

Mr. Bond. They are not what you could say separate from the 
senior groups. 

ISIr. Arens. What are senior groups ? We are getting into another 
field. 

Mr. Bond. I mean the branches. 

Mr. Arens, What senior branches? 

Mr. Bond. I think there were about over 100 branches throughout 
the State. 

Mr. Arens. There are about 100 senior branches of what? 

Mr. Bond. The National Association for the Advancement of Col- 
ored People. 

Mr. Arens. T^ocated within this State ? 

Mr. Bond. Yes, I think so. 

Mr. Arens. "VATiere are they? Just scattered around fairly well 
over the State? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. Out at Asheville. all the way to the far eastern part 
of the State. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3545 

Mr. Arens. What is the aggregate membership of all of these 
branches ? 

Mr. Bond. I thiiik it is around 10,000. 

Mr. Arens. Who is head of them ? 

Mr. Bond. Mr. Alexander of Charlotte. 

Mr. Arens. Are you active in this State organization? 

Mr. Bond. No, I am not active in the State organization. 

Mr. Arens. In what are you active? 

Mr. Bond. I have been active in the Durham branch as a member of 
the executive board for several j^ears, but I am not there now. 

Mr. Arens. Are you still active in the work here in this State? 

Mr. Bond. No. 

Mr. Arens. Are you active in that type of work in West Virginia? 

Mr. Bond. No. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about other activities in which you have engaged 
since you graduated at the head of your class. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Have j'ou been active in any other movements here 
in this area? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I told my main interests. 

Mr. Arens. Then let us have some of your minor interests. 

Mr. Bond. I think I will rest with that on the first 

Mr. Arens. I understood you to say you completed your formal 
education in 1951. AVas I correct in my impression that you com- 
pleted your formal education in 1051 ? 

Mr. GiLLiLAND. Let him finish his last answer. 

Mr. Arens. Was I correct in my interpretation of your statement 
that you completed your formal education in 1951? 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us what other, we will call it part-time, 
education you have had since 1951 1 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. That is a ver}' broad (question. I think that 

Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the intellectual leaders in this area 
since vou graduated at the head of vour class ? 

Mr, Bond. I think I decline to answer further questions on grounds 
of the 1st, 5th, and 14th amendments. 

Mr. Arens. You have been one of the intellectual leaders among 
the youth in this State since you graduated at the head of your class; 
have you not ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. I would like to lay before you a photograph which has 
been identified in this record, and see if that might prompt your recol- 
lection. Do you recall at any time having seen that building which 
is portrayed in this photograph? 

Mr. Bond. I think I will have to decline. 

Mr. Arens. Decline what? 

Mr. Bond. On the same grounds, sir, the 1st, 5th, and 14th amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Arens. I am at a little loss here. I do not understand why 
you cannot identify this photograph here. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Miss Laks. Is there a question before the witness? 



3546 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Counsel has read the rules of this committee and knows 
that the counsel's activity is exclusively limited to advising the witness 
with reference to his constitutional rights. 

I am asking whether or not you can identify that photograph. 

Mr. Bond. I will have to decline on the same ground. 

Mr. Arens. "What do you mean on the same grounds ? 

Mr. Bond. The 1st, the 5th, and 14th amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee 
the truth as to whether or not you can identify this photograph you 
would be giving information which might be used against you in a 
criminal proceeding? 

Mr. Bond. I decline on the same ground. 

Mr. Arens. During the time you were active in these youth councils 
in the State of North Carolina, were you also a member of any 
other organization ? 

Mr. Bond. I think I will have to decline. 

The Chairman. You are not under any compulsion. You said, "I 
have to decline." You do not have to decline. Do you decline ? 

Mr. Bond. I decline because 1 am afraid that if I attempt to answer, 
my answer might tend to incriminate me, might tend to. 

Mr. Arens. While you were connected with the youth councils 
and head of all these youth councils over the State, were you receiving 
orders and instructions from some other organization as to what you 
should do in these councils ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I think I will have to decline on the same grounds, 1st, 
5t]i, and 14th amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact, that while you were head of these youth councils and various 
chapters throughout the State, you were receiving orders from the 
Connnunist conspiracy as to what you were to do. If that is not the 
fact, here and now is the place for you to stand up and deny it. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I would like to answer the question, but I think I will 
have to refuse 

]Mr. Arens. You can answer. Nobody is holding you back. 

Mr. Bond (continuing). On the same grounds because my answer 
might tend to incriminate me. 

;^Ir. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee 
of the Congress the truth, while you are under oath, as to whether or 
not while you were head of these youth councils, you were receiving 
directions from the Communist conspiracy as to what you should 
dc, you would be supplying information which could be used against 
you in a criminal proceeding ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

!Mr. Bond. I think I will have to decline. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. Again 
let me tell you, you are not under any compulsion to refuse to answer. 
You are directed to answer the question. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I don't know anything else to do except to decline on 
the basis of the 1st, 5th, and 14th amendments. 



IN\'ESTIGATION OF COIVIMTINIST ACTIVITIES 3547 

Mr. Arens. There is something else you can do. You can tell us 
the truth. Were you receiving instructions from the Communist con- 
spiracy while you were head of these youth comicils all over the State? 

Mr. Bond. I decline on the same ground. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend you might give informa- 
tion which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding if you 
gave a truthful answer to that question ? 

Mr. Bond. I decline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that he be ordered 
and directed to answer that question. 

( Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Arens. Are you at this moment under Communist discipline ? 

("Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I will have to decline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Who engaged your lawyer, sitting to your right ? Did 
you engage her, or was she engaged for you by some other person or 
persons ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

The Chairman. You do not need legal advice to answer that 
question. 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. As I said Avhen I asked for a delay, I had not had ample 
time for consultation because I just contacted the attorneys this 
morning. 

Mr. Arens. Your lady counsel is from New York; is she not? 

Mr. Bond. I understand she is. 

Mr. Arens. How did she happen to appear here today ? 

The Chairman. You understand? Do you not know where your 
counsel is from ? 

( AVitness consulted his counsel. ) 

Mr. Arens. Can you answer the question ? 

Mr. Bond. What is the question again ? 

]Mr. Arens. Your lady lawyer is from New York ; is she not ? 

Mr. Bond. I will have to 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. My understanding is that the relationship between me 
and my counsel is supposed to be confidential, so I don't 

]\Ir. Arens. I am only asking you where she is from. Was Miss 
Lake sent here from New York ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I think all that I can say on this question is that I re- 
tained them today. 

Mr. Arens. Is that so ? How did you happen to make her acquain- 
tanceship ? 

Mr. Bond. Privileged communication, I guess. 

Mr. Arens, Who told you that? Your counsel right there, did 
she not ? The truth is that your counsel was sent here from the Com- 
munist Party in New York, isn't that so ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Would you answer the question ? 

Mr. Bond. I decline to answer on the grounds that the relationship 
of client and counsel is confidential and also on the grounds of the 
amendments. 

75146—5,6 i 



3548 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Have you been active in the Progressive Party 
in this State? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I think I will have to rest on the amendments, the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. The truth is that you were active in the Progressive 
Party in this State, isn't that so ? 

Mr. Bond. I have to decline for the same reason. 

Mr. Arens. You were also active in the Daniels Defense Commit- 
tee here, were you not ? 

Mr. Bond. I decline on the same ground. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact, that you were in attendance at the Communist Party lead- 
ership training school in August 1952, which was held on the farm 
of William Binkley near Walnut Cove, N. C. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I decline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. What time did you arrive at the hearing this morning 
at the court house ? 

Mr. Bond. It think it was just about 10 o'clock. 

Mr. Arens. Was somebody testifying when you got here? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I think so, 

Mr. Arens. Who was testifying? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I decline on the grounds of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Why? 

Mr. Bond. The same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee 
who was testifying when you arrived at this hearing you might be 
giving information that could be used against you in a criminal pro- 
ceeding ? 

Mr. Bond. I have to decline on the same grounds, the fifth amend- 
ment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of an organization dedi- 
cated to the destruction of the Constitution of the United States? 

Mr. Bond. I decline to answer on the gi'ounds of the 1st, 6th, and 
14th amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that in the pres- 
ence of this witness, Mr. Childs be requested to resume the stand. 

The Chairman. Mr. Childs, will you come forward ? 

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES BENSON CHILDS— Resumed 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Childs, you have been sworn this morning to tell 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your testimony this morning you 
spoke about a Communist Party training school which was held in 
xVugust 11)52, on the farm of William Binkley, near Walnut Grove, 
N. C, is that correct ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. AVere you in attendance at that school ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3549 

Mr. Arexs. During the attendance at that school, did you have 
(K'casion to make the acquaintanceship and to know as a Communist 
a person by the name of Nat Bond ? 

Mr. CiiiLDs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you see in this courtroom today the person whom 
you knew as a Comnumist at that Communist Party leadership train- 
ing school in this State in 1952 ? 

Mr. Childs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly stand up, look him in the eye, and 
point him out to this committee ? 

(Witness stands and points.) 

Mr. CiiiLDs. He is the witness before the committee now. 

Mr. Arexs. Resume your seat, Mr. Bond. 

TESTIMONY OF NATHANIEL BOND— Resumed 

Tell us, Mr. Bond, was Mr. Childs lying or telling the truth when 
he said under oath a moment ago that he knew you as a Communist, 
and identified you as such before this committee ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BoxD. I liave to decline to answer that question on the grounds 
of the 1st, ath, and 14th amendments, and also because my counsel 
have not had the opportunity to cross-examine the witness. 

Mr. Arexs. Was he lying or was he telling the truth ? 

Mr. Bt)XD. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you ever seen this gentleman, Mr. Childs, before? 

Mr. Bond. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest Mr. Childs now be excused from 
the witness chair, Mr. Chairman. 

(Witness temporarily excused.) 

Mr. Arenas. I respectfully suggest in the presence of this witness, 
another witness be requested to briefly assume the witness chair. Mr. 
Ralph Clontz. will you please assume the witness chair? Mr. Clontz, 
you have been sworn this morning to tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothine: but the trutli. 



'■>-> 



TESTIMONY OF RALPH C. CLONTZ, JR.— Resume*! 

Mr. Clontz. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Communist 
Party as an undercover agent, as one who was not ideologically identi- 
fied with the party but as one who was serving your country patri- 
otically by penetrating the Communist Party for purposes of procuring 
information, did you have occasion to make the acquaintanceship or 
to know a person by the name of Nat Bond ? 

Mr. Clontz. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity did you know that person ? 

Mr. Clontz. I knew Nathaniel Bond through his activities in the 
Daniels Defense Committee, through his solicitation of subscriptions 
to Freedom, a Communist publication out of New York City, and also 
subscriptions, as I recall, to the Daily Worker. 

Mr. Arens. That is the Communist Daily Worker? 

Mr. Clontz. The Communist Daily Worker. 

Mr. Arens. Could you give us a, word about the Daniels Defense 
Committee for this record ? 



3550 INVESTIGATION OF COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Clontz. The Daniels Defense Committee was a Communist- 
front organization set up by the party with Communist Party domi- 
nation, control, and complete direction. I attended the founding 
meeting and attended most of the meetings while I was here in North 
Carolina, and Mr. Bond was an officer of that alleged committee. My 
recollection is that he was the treasurer at one time. It was one of 
those typical Communist plots. They take a supposed trial at which 
a Negro has been unjustly convicted, they claim, and blow it up for 
the benefit of the party. 

In this particular case the Daniels Defense Committee held meetings 
all over North Carolina in churches and various other places in North 
Carolina and even, as I recall, went north. 

Mr. Aeens. Do you now see in this courtroom the person known 
by you as Nathaniel Bond, whom you have described in connection 
with these various activities ? 

Mr. Clontz. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly confront him, stand up, look him in 
the eye, and point him out to the committee ? 

(Witness stands and points.) _ 

Mr. Clontz. That is Nathaniel Bond, the witness. 

TESTIMONY OF NATHANIEL BOND— Eesumed 

Mr. Arens. Now, Nathaniel Bond, you have heard the testimony 
under oath of this witness who served his Government as an under- 
cover agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, patriotically 
procuring information against a foreign-controlled conspiracy. Will 
you tell this committee whether or not he is lying or telling the truth ? 

(Witness Bond consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. I think I will have to decline to answer that question on 
the grounds of the 1st, 5th, and 14th amendments, and also because 
my counsel has not had the right to cross-examine the witness. 

The Chairman. Just a minute in that connection. Let me call your 
attention to the fact that in all criminal proceedings where a charge 
has been made, the accused has never had an opportunity to cross- 
examine witnesses when the accusation is made. That is exactly this 
situation. It doesn't become an issue of fact until you have affirmed 
or denied the accusation. You have been accused. Is it true or isn't 
it true ? 

(Witness Bond consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond. You were directing the question to me ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Bond. I have to decline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Clontz 
be excused from the witness chair for a few moments. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Arens. Thank you, Mr. Clontz. 

(Witness Clontz temporarily excused.) 

Mr. Arens. One further question now. You realize, of course, you 
are now under oath before this committee, do you not? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. You do not have to consult your counsel to find out 
whether or not you are under oath. You know you are under oath;; 
do you not ? 



INVESTIGATION OF COJVUVIUNIST ACTIVITIES 3551 

Mr. Bond. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You know, of course, if you consciously lie under oath, 
you could be subject to perjury prosecution. You know that; do 
you not? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

(No response.) 

Mr. Arens. Do you propose after your release from this subpena to 
step outside this courtroom and say to the press in effect, "Of course 
I have never been a member of the Communist Party, but I wasn't 
going to tell that witch-hunting committee whether or not I was in 
the Communist Party? 

Mr. Bond. I have to decline to answer that question on the grounds 
of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. We have no further questions of this witness, Mr. 
Chairman. 

The Chairman. Are there any questions from the committee ? Sup- 
pose that this committee were to arrange to grant you immunity, 
would you testify under those conditions ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Bond, I think I will have to stick to the 1st and 5th amend- 
ments on that. 

The Chairman. All right. You are excused. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, we should like to recall Mr. Clontz 
for testimony with reference to additional activities within this State. 
He has thus far identified 2 or 3 people. Would you kindly take the 
witness stand, Mr. Clontz ? 

TESTIMONY OF RALPH C. CLONTZ, JR.— Resumed 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Clontz, you have been sworn on this record ? 

Mr. Clontz. Yes, I have. 

Mr. Arexs. This morning you gave us a very brief resume of your 
background, associations, and penetration of the Communist Party 
at the behest and cooperation of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; 
is that correct? 

Mr. Clontz. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. Would you at ^^our own pace briefly give us a summary 
appraisal of the Communist activities in this State during the period 
of the time you were a member, with particular reference to the Pro- 
gressive Party, the Daniels Defense Committee, and the activities of 
the jMorton Sobell Committee ? 

Mr. Clontz. During the time that I was — probably I should clarify 
this. I was connected with Junius Scales and other party members 
and involved in activities with people like the preceding witness, Na- 
thaniel Bond, from 1948 until 1050, before I actually managed to 
achieve membership in the conspiracy or actually in the party. 

It was during this time that I firet came in contact with the Com- 
munist-front organizations and with their activities in connection with 
the Progressive Party. 

The Communist Party was very active, first of all, in the Progressive 
Party. Junius Scales and his wife; William A. McGirt, who has pre- 
viously been identified to the committee, and William Evans, who has 
also been a witness here today ; and numerous other party people were 



3552 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

active throughout the State of North Carolina in support of the Pro- 
gressive Party. Among other things, they were walking the streets 
getting petitions signed to get the Progressive Party on the ballot in 
North Carolina. 

In the Daniels Defense Committee my experience there was that the 
Communist Party stayed in the background, so far as known Commu- 
nists were concerned. For example, at the meetings Junius Scales and 
Henry Farash, who was the party organizer from New York, would 
not be seen inside the church. People like Bond, who could hide behind 
his supposed connection with the NAACP, and other people of his ilk, 
would actually run the show, while Scales, Farash, and other people 
like that would control the show from the outside. 

Many people were misled by what appeared to be an injustice that 
had taken place in Greenville, N. C. Many of our Negro churches let 
these people come into this building and liold meetings and in some 
cases take up collections through the misapprehension that they were 
helping the cause of justice, whereas actually they were helping the 
cause of the Communist Party. 

Various other so-called people's organizations were sponsored by 
the party. One in particular I remember I w^ent to in either Greens- 
boro or Winston-Salem — I am not certain of the town — called the 
People's Legislative Conference. This theoretically was a meeting of 
a broad group of people who were going to present to the North Caro- 
lina Legislature the needs of the common people. Actually I found 
the same old gang there that I had found at all the other party-front 
meetings all over the State. They just called it something different. 

The moderator on that occasion was a Karl Korstad, who then was 
an organizer in the Food, Tobacco, Agricultural and Allied Workers 
Union of America over in Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. That union subsequently merged into Distributive, 
Processing and Office Workers of America CIO 'I 

Mr. Clontz. My recollection is that it did. 

Mr. Arens. Is that the one of which Arthur Osman is the head ? 

Mr. Clontz. I don't have personal knowledge of that. Inci- 
dentally, William A. McGirt, when I last saw him, was working in the 
food and tobacco union, as it was then called, over in Winston-Salem, 
working under Karl Korstad, according to what he told me. Again I 
have no personal knowledge. 

The menace of the Communist Party as I see it is twofold. First 
of all, I consider that any Communist Party member who has dedi- 
cated himself to the conspiracy is a traitor to his country, either 
actually or potentially, depending entirely on whether he has had the 
opportunity to commit the necessary act in front of tlie necessary wit- 
nesses to satisfy the definition. 

What I fear more is not the people we have seen here today who 
are known. They are the people that are put out for public con- 
sumption. They are offered on the altar as martyrs. But it is the 
people that Scales told me about that were sleepers, that were ordered 
underground back in the eai'ly thirties and later, that were sent into 
industry, sent into various jobs that had no connection wdiatever with 
the Communist Party, and told to Avait until the time came. 

Mr. AiiiiNs. How dangerous do you conceive the Communist Party 
to be today on the basis of your background and experience within 
the party ? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3553 

Mr. Clontz. I was answering that question. That is the first 
danger, the sleepers. I feel that we have the equivalent, certainly, of 
two enemy divisions if and when the Soviet Union starts a war. We 
have the equivalent of two Soviet divisions already here. The trouble 
is that they are wearing our clothes and going under our freedoms. 

The second danger from the Communist conspiracy is the way 
they are able to mould public opinion. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have illustrations of that ( 

Mr. Clontz. Yes. You can get one out of any paper. It creeps 
in. A misconception about the fifth amendment, for example. People 
of intelligence, loyal Americans, actually will tell you that the legal 
scholars say that a man may invoke the fifth amendment who is com- 
pletely innocent of any charge. The thing that bothers me is that 
people of intelligence could do research and find out where did they 
get that from. They didn't get it from any legal scholars I have ever 
found. Yet that is the line that the Communist Party talks. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us an illustration or an explanation on 
the basis of your experience of the way the individual Communist is 
able to multiply his personal effectiveness thi'ough other people in 
obtaining a given objective? 

Mr. Clontz. The Stockholm Peace Petition is a milder example. 
Over in the vicinity of Chapel Hill, Junius Scales and I together 
solicited signatures on this apparently innocuous document which was 
then presented to Xew York headquarters as an outpouring of senti- 
ment in favor of the party and the party goals from North Carolina. 

Another sample is the Eosenberg case. From all over the country' 
letters poured in to, I am told, Congress. The party told me to evei-y 
Government official. I heard party urgings that they be sent in. I 
saw committees at work urging the freedom of the Rosenbergs. Yet 
at the same time I attended rallies and heard this Mrs. Sobell bring 
messages from the death house from the Rosenbergs which in effect 
said, 'HTomrades, don't worry, we won't squeal." 

I saw non-Conununists sucked in on that "save the Rosenberors" 
thing by having anti-Semitism thrown up as the reason why, clouding 
the issues, forgetting what the Rosenbergs were charged with, saying 
that the Rosenbergs should not be convicted because if they were 
executed, their children would be orphans. When most parents, die, 
their children sort of become orphans naturally. That wa-s thrown 
up as a big issue, and that they were convicted because of anti-Semi- 
tism, whereas the facts simply proved otherwise. 

Mr. Arens. I have here, Mr. Clontz, a photostatic copy of an article 
of the Communist Daily Worker of March 6, 1050, in which there is 
an interview with one Aaron Schneider, entitled, "Sobell Committee 
Organizer Finds Xew Spirit in South," in which Mr. Schneider, 
obviously a Communist, is testifying about what he has just recently 
done in setting up Sobell committees throughout the South. 

Do you have any information respecting Morton Sobell and the 
committees which were set up to bring pressure for his release from 
the penitentiary? 

Mr. Clontz. Actually I was in New York when these committees 
were first being started. Morton Sobell at that time was a sort of 
satellite. The main pitch was save the Rosenbergs, and then as a sort 
of second verse, they used to mention save Morton Sobell, and Mrs. 
Sobell traveled all over various places. But actually during my time, 



3554 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

pretending to be a Communist in North Carolina, there were no such 
committees active. 

Mr. Arens. Apparently from this Daily Worker they are reactivat- 
ing it and they are down here again. May I ask you what was and 
what is the Communist Party line with reference to the Walter- 
McCarran Immigration and Nationality Act? 

Mr. Clontz. The party line was definitely in opposition to it. 

Mr. Arens. What was and what is the Communist Party line with 
reference to the Internal Security Act of 1950 ? 

Mr. Clontz. The party reaction was best demonstrated by their 
spending 3 days burning incriminating documents at the Jefferson 
School of Social Science. 

Mr. Arens. You witnessed that? 

Mr. Clontz. I saw that. The elevator there was tied up for 3 days 
involved in transporting documents to the basement to burn. 

Mr. Arens. How did you happen to be there? 

Mr. Clontz. I was there under the auspices of Junius Scales, and 
I miglit say the Federal Government, attending that school for 3 weeks 
during the summer of 1950, after I had passed the bar examination 
here in North Carolina. 

Mr. Arens. Did you run onto Professor Boudin while you were at 
the Jefferson School, which is to school Communists, as everyone in 
this field knows ? 

Mr. Clontz. No, I didn't encounter that particular professor. 

Mr. Arens. What is the attitude of the Communist conspiracy in 
this country with reference to the committee conducting these hear- 
ings? 

Mr. Clontz. I don't think they have yet thought of a punishment 
they felt would be appropriate for the committee. It is portrayed as 
Nazis, Fascists, traitors, suppressors of the people. You name it. 

Mr. Arens. Witch hunters? 

Mr. Clontz. Witch hunters. You name it, and if it is bad enough 
you have been called that. 

Mr. Kearney. May I ask, is that the interpretation of the Commu- 
nist Party of the members of this committee? 

Mr. Clontz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Kearney. Coming from them I consider it a compliment. 

Mr. Clontz. I would, too, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest for tlie record that 
this witness has considerable information with reference to other areas 
of activity of the Communist Party, which is not germane to the issues 
being explored here today. At staff level we propose to interrogate 
him at length before we leave, since the information he has bears on 
the subject matter, but I do not believe it would be provident to get 
into it at this particular session. 

I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that would conclude the in- 
terrogation unless there is some other obserAation or comniop.t that 
the witness has to make with reference to the North Carolina situation. 

Mr. Clontz. I would like to say this: I think a great mistake is 
made by a lot of people in assuming that the Communist Party in 
North Carolina was Junius Scales. The mistake is in assuming that 
one individual was the only thing that was an evil force, so to speak, 
in the Carolinas, whereas actually the effect of the party was scattered 
through the State, and the effect of the party can be seen in the leader- 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3555 

ship positions which party people have held in our educational systems. 
_ I feel that this committee has done a very good service to this sec- 
tion of the country in coming down here and giving us an opportunity 
to bring out into the open the connection that these people have, for- 
getting Junius Scales, and individuals, and concentrating on the Com- 
munist Party as a criminal conspiracy. 

Mr. Arens. Have you any doubt in your mind on the basis of your 
background and experience within the Communist Party in this area, 
and also in New York City, that the Communist Party is in this 
instance in operation, in being, boring feverishly within this com- 
munity and within this State ? 

Mr. Clontz. None whatever. The strategy of tlie Communist 
Party never changes. The tactics may, but the strategy calling for 
the overthrow of the Government has not changed since Karl Marx, 
and the party says it never will. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I res^^ectfully call the chairman's 
and the committee's attention to certain documents which are 
right now being circulated in this community under the auspices 
of the Carolina District Communist Party, USA, attacking the House 
Un-American Activities Committee, talking of the soiled record of this 
committee, attacking the personnel and staff of the committee for ap- 
pearing here, which I believe is and of itself evidence that the Com- 
munist Party, at least in this community, is certainly not dead. 

The Chairman. Are there any questions, Mr. Willis? 

Mr. Willis. You stated that the Communists do not have such high 
regard for members of this committee. How do they look upon you 
as a former FBI man? Are you something less than a bum in their 
opinion? 

Mr. Clontz. I must confess they have been somewhat restrained. 
They also have not bothered to communicate with me directly their 
feelings. One difference is that they know that I never was one, and 
I think possibly they feel a little better toward one who has been one 
of the pack and didn't just pretend to be and turned and started 
"heating" the comrades. I have been called about as good names as you 
have, though. 

Mr. Kearney. I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, the same as I did 
with regard to the first witness. I think the connnittee owes the wit- 
ness a deep debt of gratitude; not only the connnittee, but the people 
of the State of North Carolina, and the American people at large. 
You are to be commended and commended highly. 

Mr. Willis. Yes, I want to say that too. 

Mr. Clontz. Thank you, sir. 

The Chairman. I want to join with my colleagues, and not only with 
them but with every Member of Congress but one, who voted for the 
appropriation for this committee. Last year this committee's ap- 
propriation was made by unanimous vote. This year there was one 
vote against. I think that is very conclusive proof of the fact that 
the Members of Congress at least are aware of what this conspiracy 
can and is doing. It is not to be laughed off. I think that the most 
dangerous people in our society are those who say, "So what?" The 
second most dangerous group consists of those well-meaning do- 
gooders who sign petitions amicus curiae and who willynilly permit 
their names to be used in all sorts of causes. It is because of brave 
patriotic people like yourself that the FBI and the congressional 



3556 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

committees kno^A' a great deal about the activities of this liard-core 
conspiracy. But, as I see it, the danger is in these other two groups. 

It would seem to me that we could not safely ease up in bringing 
to the American people an appreciation of what is going on in the still 
of the night. 

Mr. Kearney, Just thinking out loud, I was wondering if you would 
agree with me that in general the American people have adopted, or 
have, rather, a sort of soft attitude toward this question ? 

Mr. Clontz. I don't think it is a soft attitude. I have addressed over 
200 different organizations in the two Carolinas, and I have not found 
a soft attitude, as much as I have an uninformed, priraarily, and 
sometimes a misinformed situation on these various issues. They don't 
bother to get the facts. They don't concern themselves .vith it be- 
cause they think this is something that goes on in New York City 
or Brooklyn or something like that. But certainly not in Charlotte, 
certainly not in North Carolina, and that it is something that foreigners 
engage in. 

Mr. Kearney. Something that happens only in the large metro- 
politan areas of this country. 

Mr. Clontz. I think it is more a lack of information. I am one of 
these oldfashioned characters who says if you give the people the 
facts, they will come up with the right answer. I think they are not 
getting the facts and that is the reason for the apparent complacency 
in our section of the South. 

The Chairman. I think at this point the committee will take a recess 
of 10 minutes. 

(Present at the taking of the recess were Representatives Walter, 
Willis, and Kearney.) 

(Short recess.) 

(Present following the recess w^ere Representatives Walter, AVillis, 
and Kearney.) 

The Chairman. The committee will be in order. 

Call your next witness, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. Josei>h Blake, please. 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand. Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Blake. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH FRANKLIN BLAKE, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, RHODA LAKS AND JAMES D. GILLILAND 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Blake. My name is Joseph Blake. I presently live in George- 
town, S. C. Until last week I was a teacher in the public schools. 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing todaj' in response to a subpena which 
was served upon you by the House Conmiittee on Un-American 
Activities ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Blake. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by coinisel ? 

Mr. Blake. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Will counsel please identify themselves? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3557 

iliss LaivS. Rhoda Laks, 615 Coliiinbus Avenue, New York City. 
Mr. GiLLiLAXD. James D. Gilliland, Warrenton, N. C. 
Mr. Akexs. 1 understood you to say a moment ago, Mr. Blake, that 
until last week you were employed someplace in South Carolina as a 
teacher. 

Mr. Blake. Tliat is correct. 

Mr. Akexs. What is the name of the institution at which you were 
employed ? 

Mr. Blake. The Winyah Junior High School. 
Mr. Ahexs. How do you spell that ? 

Mr. Blake. W-i-n-y-a-h Junior, J-u-n-i-o-r, High, H-i-g-h, School, 
S-c-h-o-o-1. 

Mr. Arens. What did you teach there? 

Mr. I^i^VKE. I taught reading in tlie seventh grade. 

Mr. Akexs. Did I understand you correctly that since last week you 
ai-e not employed there? 

Mr. Blake. That is correct. 

Mr. Akexs. What occasioned your disassociation from the school ? 
(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Blake. I resigned my position there. 

Mr. Akexs. What caused you to resign your position ? 

Mr, l^LAKE. I resigned because I did not want to embarrass my 
school and connnunity by my a})])earance before this connnittee. 

Mr. Akexs. Kindly tell us where and when you were born. 

Mr. Blake. I was born January 24, 1922, in Chadbourn, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. Give us a word, if j'ou please, sir, respecting your formal 
education. 

Mr. Blake. I graduted from the Chadbourn High School. I at- 
tended the University of North Carolina, where I received a bachelor's 
degree. 

Mr. Arens. When, please, sir? 

Mr. Blake. In 1949, if my memory is correct. 

Mr, Arens. Proceed, if you please, sir, with your formal education. 

Mr, Blake, Then I also have a nuister's degree from the University 
of North Carolina. 

Mr. Arens. When did you receive that? 

Ml-. Blake. 1953, 

Mr, iVRENs. Does that complete your formal education ? 

Mr. Br^KE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly proceed to give us a resume of your employment 
since you completed your education. 

Mr. Blake. In 1949-50, 1951-52, I taught in the public schools of 
Durham County in North Carolina. 

Mr. Arens. In what schools did you teach? In high schools or 
grade schools ? 

Mr. Blake. I taught in high school. 

Mr, Arens. Can you give us the names of the high schools? 

Mr. Blake. The Oak Grove School. 

Mr. Arens, In Durham? 

Mr. Blake, That is right, 

Mr. Arens. "^^Hiat classes did you teach ? 

Mr. Blake, I taught the eighth grade, 

Mr. Arens. All courses, I take it ? 

Mr. Blake, I believe that is correct. 



3558 ESn'ESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. What was your next employment ? 

Mr. Blake. My next employment was at the Wampee High School 
in Wampee, S. C. 

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your transfer from North Carolina to 
South Carolina ? 

Mr. Blake. I moved to AVampee because that was near my home, 
Chadbourn. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about your employment there. 

Mr. Blake. I taught at the Wampee High School in the seventh 
and eighth grades, if I remember correctly. 

Mr. Arens. Give us your next employment, please, sir, and the 
date. 

Mr. Blake. My next employment was in Richmond, Va. 

Mr. Arens. When ? 

Mr. Blake. If I remember correctly, 1954. I think that is the 
correct date. 

Mr. Arens. In what school did you teach ? 

Mr. Blake. I did not teach. 

Mr. Arens. What was your employment in Richmond? 

Mr. Blake. I worked in a paint store as credit manager. 

Mr. Arens. Did you completely disassociate yourself from your 
previous employment when you worked in the paint store or was that 
a part-time job during the summer? 

Mr. Blake. No ; that was a full-time job. 

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your transfer to Virginia? How 
did you happen to go there ? 

Mr. Bi^\ke. I moved north seeking, I suppose you could say, greater 
economic advantage. 

Mr. Arens. Give us the name of the paint store. 

Mr. Blake. I believe it was Acme Paint Co. 

Mr. Arens. A-c-m-e? 

Mr. Bi^KE. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. At Richmond? 

Mr. Blake. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you employed there ? 

Mr. Blake. Most of that year. 

Mr. Arens. Most of 1954? 

Mr. Blake. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Continue, please, in the chronology of your employ- 
ment. 

Mr. Blake. Then I moved back to my hometown, Chadbourn. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliat was your employment then ? 

]Mr. Blake. In Chadbourn, I worked on my brother's farm. 

Mr. Arens. That was in 1954, too, or was that 1955 ? 

Mr. Blake. That was 1954-55. 

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your return from Richmond? 

Mr. Blake. I am fundamentally, I suppose, a backwoods southerner, 
and I desired — the longing for one's hometown, that kind of thing. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us what you did after you worked on your 
brother's farm and how long you worked there. 

Mr. Blake. I don't remember the exact number of months or weeks 
for that matter, but my following employment was in Georgetown 
where I began teaching school this September. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMISIUNIST ACTIVITIES 3559 

Mr. Arens. And you have been continuously employed ever since 
at Georgetown, is that correct? 

Mr. Blake. Until last week, yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens, For the purpose of identification, could you tell us your 
wife's name? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Blake. Would you repeat that question ? 

Mr. Arens. Will you tell us your wife's name, her maiden name, 
just for the purpose of identification for our record. 

Mr. Blake. Dorothy Strausberg. 

Mr. Arens. May I ask you in passing whether or not your father 
was a physician ? 

Mr. Blake. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. Did j^ou serve in the United States Army ? 

Mr. Blake. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever know a person by the name 

Mr. Blake. Could I complete my answer to that question ? 

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon. I thought you had concluded. 

Mr. Blake. No, sir, I have not. I served from 1942 to 1946, as an 
enlisted man in the United States Marine Corps. 

Mr. Arens. Where did you serve ? 

Mr. Blake. Various posts and bases in this country, Guadalcanal, 
Bougainville, Samar, in the Philippines, Okinawa, and Japan. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have a commission or were you a private? 

Mr. Blake. I was enlisted. I was discharged as a staff sergeant. 

Mr. Arens. During your activities in the past have you known a 
person by the name of Ralph Vernon Long ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Blake. I must decline to answer that question, sir, on the 
grounds, under the privileges granted me under the first and fifth 
amendments of the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Why? 

Mr. Blake. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee truthfully whether or not you knew or have known a person 
by the name of Ealph Vernon Long you would be supplying infor- 
mation which could be used against you in a criminal pi'oceeding? 

Mr. Blake. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Blake. I must decline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I should like to read you now, Mr. Witness, excerpts 
from testimony under oath before this committee, given in November 
1954. The interrogating counsel at that time was Mr. Kunzig. The 
witness at that time was Kalph Vernon Long, who had identified him- 
self before the committee as a former member of the Communist con- 
spiracy. 

Mr. Kunzig. Would you tell us just, not the previous portion prior to 
North Carolina — will you tell how you became a member at the University of 
North Carolina and what sort of member you were? Do you have a card? 

Long. I was approached. I had been indoctrinated some time in the Army 
prior to my entering the University of North Carolina. There I met a gentle- 
man by the name of Joseph Franklin Blake, whom I found out to be a member 
of the party. Joe found out I read the official west coast paper, the People's 



3560 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

World, the equivalent of the Daily Worker, and he began to talk straight com- 
munism with me and he took me to Junius Scales. He was a student in com- 
parative literature at the time at the university. I wouldn't say I went look- 
ing for the Communist Party, but I was still under the influence of their ideology, 
and still reading that press, and this chance accident of uieetinj; Joseph Frank- 
lin Blake and getting to know that he was a Communist, and he said I have 
known them, and he takes me to see Scales. 

KUNziG. Give us the names of the persons you know to be party members. 

Long. Joseph Franklin Blake, and his wife, Dorothy Strausberg Blake. 

KuNziG. Were they students? 

Long. Joe was a student while I was there and he was a member of the 
party. As I mentioned before, Joseph Franklin Blake was in the party when 
I got in, and he was still in when I attended the last meeting. Joe was from 
Chadbourn, N. C. He was the son of a physician. 

KuNziG. How do you know him to be a member of the Communist Party? 

Long. I attended Communist Party meetings with him. 

When Mr. Long was testifying under oath before this committee 
and gave the testimony which I have just read to you, was he lying 
or was he telling the truth ? 

Mr. Blake. Same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee whether or not the testimony which I have just read to you 
was the truth you would be supplying information which could be 
used against you in a criminal proceeding ? 

Mr. Blake. I must decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the wit- 
ness be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. I want 
to ask you, when you say "I must decline," do you mean that "I do 
decline to answer" ? 

Mr. Blake. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman, All right. You are directed to answer the last 
question. 

Mr. Blake. I decline for the same reason, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Were you ever a student in comparative literature at 
the University of North Carolina, ? 

Mr. Blake. Same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be 
ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Blake. Same groimds, sir. 

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr, Blake. I must decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. What is your middle name ? 

Mr. Blake, Franklin, 

Mr. Arens. You are Joseph Franklin Blake; is that correct? 

Mr. Blake. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens, Have you ever been known by any other name? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr, Blake, I must decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. Do you apprehend that if you told this committee 
truthfully whether or not you have ever been known by any name 
other than the name of Joseph Franklin Blake, you would be 
supplying information which could be used against you in a criminal 
proceeding? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3561 

Mr. Blake. Same reason. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that he be ordered 
and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Blake. I must decline to answer that question on the privileges 
accorded me by the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. How many students have you taught in the course of 
your teaching career? 

Mr. Blake. I do not know. I can't answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. Would it be in the thousands ? 

Mr. Blake. I doubt it. 

Mr. Arens. Would it be in the hundreds ? 

Mr. Blake. Yes, quite positively. 

Mr. Arens. Have you taught social science? 

Mr. Blake. I don't understand, sir. What do you mean by social 
science ? 

Mr. Arens. In your teaching courses, did you teach social science, 
political science, sociology? 

Mr. Blake. Would you be more specific, sir? Social science 

Mr. Arens. You know what a course in social science is. 

Mr. Blake. That is what I am driving at. The social sciences are 
a very broad field. 

Mr. Arens. ^\Tiat courses in social science or sociology' have you 
ever taught? 

Mr. Blake. I have never taught courses in sociology. 

Mr. Arens. Have you taught political science ? 

Mr. Blake. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you taught government? 

Mr. Blake. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you taught history ? 

Mr. Blake. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. In the course of your teaching history to these hun- 
dreds of students, have you had occasion to indoctrinate the coui^se with 
a little communism as you went along? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Blake. I must decline to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taken an oath of allegiance to the United 
States? 

Mr. Blake. Would you repeat that question ? 

Mr. Arens. Have 3'ou ever taken an oath of allegiance to this 
country ? 

Mr. Blake. If I remember correctly, sir, that is part of the standard 
procedure when you enlist in the Marine Corps. 

Mr. Arens. Did you take an oath? 

Mr. Blake. To the best of my recollection; yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Can you recall the essence of that oath ? 

Mr. Blake. No, sir, I cannot. 

Mr. Arens. The oath was something along the line to support and 
defend the Constitution of the United States, and this country, 
against all enemies foreign and domestic; wasn't it? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Blake. It probably was. I don't recall, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You took it, didn't you ? 



3562 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Blake. I took the oatli ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. At the time you took that oath, were you a participant 
in a foreign-controlled conspiracy designed to overthrow this Govern- 
ment by force and violence ? 

Mr. Blake. I must decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee the truth as to your membership in a foreign-controlled con- 
spiracy at the time you took that oath you would be giving information 
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. Blake. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Did you make any public pronouncements at the time 
you resigned from the employment you had until a week ago? 

Mr. Blake. No, sir, I did not. 

Mr. Arens. Did you talk to the head of the school when you re- 
signed ? 

Mr. Blake. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Did you tell him anything about your past in the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Blake. I must decline to answer that question, sir, on the pre- 
viously stated grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Was that a subject of discussion in your conversation 
with the head of the school ? 

Mr. Blake. I must decline to answer that question on the same 
grounds. 

]\Ir. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question, 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Blake. I must decline to answer that question under the privi- 
leges granted me by the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us what was discussed between you and the presi- 
dent of the school at the time you resigned ? 

Mr. Blake. I beg your pardon, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us what was discussed between you and the head 
of the school, the principal, president, or chairman, at the time you 
resigned a week ago when you received this subpena. 

Mr. Blake. I must decline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, he be ordered 
and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Yes, you are directed to answer the question. You 
have already testified at the beginning of your testimony that you 
resigned because you didn't want to embarrass your employers, because 
you were subpenaed to appear before this committee. Wliat was the 
conversation which took place when you reached that conclusion? 

Mr. Blake. I must decline to answer that question, sir, on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Do you propose after this hearing is over, after your 
release from your subpena, release from the obligations of telling the 
truth, release of the consequences of a perjury indictment, to step out 
in the hall or to go back to South Carolina and say to the folks, "Of 
course I am not a Communist. I have never been a Commimist. But 
I am not telling that witch-hunting House Un-American Activities 
Committee about that." Do you propose a course of action along that 
line after you are not under oath to tell the truth ? 



INVESTIGATION OF COIMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3563 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Blake, I must decline to answer that question on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Arens. In other words, if you would now tell us the truth as 
to what you propose to do when not under oath you would be supplying 
information which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ? 

Mr. Blake, Was that a question, sir? 

Mr, Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Blake, The same answer, then. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now under Communist discipline? 

Mr. Blake. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact, that you are now a member of the Commmiist conspiracy. 

Mr. Blake, The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that would con- 
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. 

The Ch AiRjMAN. Are there any questions, Mr. Willis ? 

Mr. Willis. No. 

The Chairman. General Kearney ? 

Mr. Kearney. No questions. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman this completes our list of witnesses. 

The Chairman. The committee will now stand adjourned and meet 
at 10 tomorrow morning. 

Mr. Gilliland. I am not sure whether I will be here tomorrow, so 
I would like to make a brief word today. 

We are glad to have been here to represent these people or repre- 
sent some of them. While you are all in the State of North Carolina, 
I would respectfully invite your attention to what would appear to me 
in my experience as being a very un-American situation here as out- 
lined on the front page of our newspaper this morning regarding our 
school situation in this State, where a great number of our school pu- 
pils are about to be denied and where a large number of our high 
officials apparently are in the conspiracy to deny them the right of 
education, and now even our lawmakers have entered into a conspiracy 
to overrule the Supreme Court themselves 

The Chairman. I do not know what you are talking about, 

Mr. Gilliland. That will be all, then. I appreciate the oppor- 
tunity of having been here, sir. It just appeared to me that it was 
un-American the Avay they were going about in preparing to deny our 
children the right of public schools. 

The Chairman. Wlio do you mean "they"? 

Mr. Gilliland. The Governor's Advisory Committee on Education 
and their recommendations. 

The Chairman. What does that have to do with this committee and 
its responsibilities ? 

Mr. Gilliland. I understood, sir, that you all were investigating 
un-American activities. I think the protection of minority groups 
where they are about to be denied their rights and where the high 
officials of the State are apparently trying to circumvent — not only 



75146—56- 



3564 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

circiuiiveiit, but to ignore and to do exactly opposite from what the 
Sujjreme Court has told them to do— I think that is un-American. 

The Chairman. I think what you are trying to do is to try to 
divert the attention of the people of this community from the wit- 
nesses you represented and what they have said and failed to say. 

The committee will recess to meet tomorrow morning. 

(Thereupon at 3:45 p. m., Monday, March 12, a recess was taken 
until 10 a. m., Tuesday, March 13, 1956.) 

(Present at the taking of the recess were Kepresentatives Walter, 
Willis, and Kearney.) 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE 

NORTH CAROLINA AREA 



TUESDAY, MARCH 13, 1956 

United States House of Kepresentatives, 

subcommiitee of the 
Committee on Un-American Act^ties, 

Charlotte^ N. G. 

PUBLIC HEARING 

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met 
at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the Federal Court House, Charlotte, 
N. C, Hon. Francis E. Walter, (chairman) presiding. 

Committee members present : Representatives Walter, Willis, and 
Kearney. 

Staff members present : Richard Arens, acting counsel, and W. Jack- 
son Jones, investigator. 

The Chairman. The committee will be in order. Call your first 
witness, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. William Binkley; kindly come forward. 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. BiNKiiEY. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM G. BINKLEY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
RHODA LAKS AND JAMES D. GILLILAND 

Miss Laks. Gentlemen, we have an application in connection with 
Mr. Binkley. Mr. Binkley has been quite ill and has just been to 
Dr. Gilmore Hodges of the clinic near Memorial Hospital. He re- 
ceived some medical treatment, and it was recommended that it would 
take about an hour for the medicine to take effect. Could we possi- 
bly have Mr. Binkley recalled in an hour or a little more ? 

The Chairman. Certainly. 

Miss Laks. Thank you. 

(Witness temporarily excused.) 

The Chairman. Call another witness. 

Mr. Arens. Albert Warren Williams, please come forward. 

Tlie Chairman. Will you raise your right hand. Do you swear 
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Williams. I do. 

3565 



3566 INVESTIGATION OF COAIMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

TESTIMONY OF ALBERT WARREN WILLIAMS, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, RHODA LAKS AND JAMES D. GILLILAND 

Mr. Aeens. Please identify yourself by name, residence and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Williams. My name is Albert Warren Williams. I reside at 
1979 Dacian Street, Winston-Salem. By occupation I am a sheet- 
metal worker. 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena 
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities ? 

Mr. Williams. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Williams. That is right. 

Mr. Akens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourselves for the 
record ? 

Miss Laks. Khoda Laks, 615 Columbus Avenue, New York City. 

Mr. GiLLiLAND. James D. Gilliland, Warrenton, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. Will you kindly give us the name of the plant in which 
you are employed ? 

Mr. Williams. A. & C. Metal Products Co. 

Mr. Arens. In Winston-Salem ? 

Mr. Williams. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly give us a thumbnail sketch of your educational 
background prior to the time you became an adult and self-sustaining. 

Mr. Williams. I attended public schools at Philadelphus in Robe- 
son County, N. C, finishing high school in 1933. I attended college 
at Wake Forest College and William and Mary College at Norfolk, 
Va. I received a B. A. degree from Wake Forest in 1939, the M. A. 
degree from the University of North Carolina in 1948, doctor of phil- 
osophy at the University of North Carolina in 1953. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us the various employments which you have had 
since you received your Ph. D. degree in 1953. 

Mr. Williams. Since I received my Ph. D. degree in 1953, I have 
been employed by the Aluminum Awning Products Co. of Winston- 
Salem, and the company where I am presently employed. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you employed by the Aluminum 
Awning Products Co. ? 

Mr. Wn^LiAMS. In the same capacity that I am employed now, as 
a sheet-metal worker. 

Mr. Arens. What do you do as a sheet-metal worker ? 

Mr. WnxiAMS. The product which these companies make is mainly 
aluminum awnings. I work on those, both hand work and on ma- 
chines, installation, and so forth. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Williams, will you tell us some of the activities in 
which you have been engaged aside from your work in the pursuit of 
your Ph. D. degree? 

Mr. Williams. I have taught. Is that what you mean? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Williams. I was a teacher in the public schools of North Caro- 
lina after receiving my B. A. degree from Wake Forest College in 
1939. 

Mr. Arens. Where did you teach, and what courses did you teach? 

Mr. Williams. The courses I taught were social science in high 



INVESTIGATION OF COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES 3567 

school, English and French. I taught at Parkton in Robeson County, 
and Summerfield in Guilford County. 

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you teach? 

Mr. Williams. I taught until the spring of 1942, at which time 
my teaching and educational careers were interrupted by the war. 
I enlisted in the United States Army Air Forces in June of 1942 and 
was in service until October of 1945. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity did you serve? 

INIr. Williams. I served in the Air Forces as a navigator on a B-24 
bomber. 

Mr. Arens. "V^^iere were you stationed? 

Mr. Williams. I was stationed in North Africa near Tunis and in 
Italy, flying missions over Italy, Austria, and Gennany. I flew nine 
missions over enemy territory as a navigator and was shot down in 
Austria in March 1944. 

So I finished the rest of the war from March 1944 until April of 
1945 as a prisoner of war in Germany. I was liberated in April of 
1945 by General Patton's army. 

Mr. Arexs. Were you a commissioned officer ? 

Mr. Williams. I was. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us some of the other activities in which you have 
engaged in the coui'se of the last several years? 

Mr. Wn,LTAMs. That is a very broad term. Would you try to be 
more specific? 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about some of the public activities in 
which you have been engaged ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. WiLLiAisrs. At this point, I believe that I will refuse to answer 
the question, and as my basis being the following: the first amendment 
guarantees the right of fi-ee association, freedom of ideas, political 
ideas. The fifth amendment guarantees that no one shall be required 
to give evidence against himself 

The Chairman. Wait a minute, "against himself" and read the 
rest of it. 

Mr. Williams. I was not reading. I was saving 

The Chairman. I will tell you what the Constitution saj's there. 
"In any criminal proceeding," and this is not a criminal proceeding. 
Proceed. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 
_Mr. Williams. So I refuse to answer the question for the reasons 
given, and because any answer I give may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Arens. You honestly feel that if you would tell this com- 
mittee what you have been doing in the course of the last several years 
in the way of public activity, you would be supplying information 
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. Williams. To that question I believe I will give the same 
answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be 
directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Williams. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. In 1949, did you, along with some others intercede on 
behalf of the 12 traitors who were convicted in New York City in 
Judge IVIedina's court? 



3568 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Williams. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I am a little puzzled with reference to your background 
again. Did you ever instruct at the University of North Carolina? 

Mr. Williams. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. I don't believe we have that on this record. 

Mr. Williams. It was an oversight. 

Mr. Arens. I was under the impression you told us about your high 
school instructing. 

Mr. Williams. I did. That was interrupted by the war, and I did 
not finish that. 

Mr. Aeens. Tell us about the instructing you did at the University 
of North Carolina. 

Mr. Williams. In 1945 after completing my military service, I 
entered the graduate school of the University of North Carolina in 
the department of history. There while a graduate student, I was 
part-time instructor of social science. 

Mr. Arens. How many students came under your tutelage ? 

Mr. Williams. It is hard to say. I didn't keep my roll books. 

Mr. Arens. How many students did you have in an ordinary class 
during the course of a year ? 

Mr. Williams. The classes in that particular course at the univer- 
sity are fairly large. I would say around 30 in a class. 

Mr. Arens. How many classes did you have during the course of 
a year in which there would be approximately 30 students? 

Mr. Williams. I believe it was one, though there might have been 
two at some time or another. 

Mr. Arens. What would be your best estimate as to the number of 
students who have received instructions from you in social science or 
history, or whatever you taught at the University of North Carolina ? 

Mr. Williams. I couldn't say, really. 

Mr. Arens. Would you have instructed as many as 100? 

Mr. Williams. I should think more than that. 

Mr. Arens. Would you have instructed as many as 500 ? 

Mr. Williams. I doubt it. 

Mr. Arens. Would a fair appraisal be approximately 200? 

Mr. Williams. I w^ould accept that. 

Mr. Arens. How many students in the aggregate have you in- 
structed in the high schools of this State? 

Mr. Williams. Probably as many. 

Mr. Arens. Another couple of hundred? In the course of your 
teaching social science, did you mix a little Marxism in with it? 

(AVitness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Williams. As to what I taught, I would regard that as pro- 
tected by the guaranties of the first amendment. 

The Chairman. In other words, you believe that to teach Marxism 
is guaranteed to you or anyone else under the first amendment with 
respect to freedom of speech ? 

Mr. Williams. Congressman Walter, I will answer the question but 
shouldn't I finish answering the previous question first ? 

The Chairman. All right. I did not know you were answering a 
question. 

Mr, Williams. Yes. Mr. Arens had asked me a question and I had 
said that the subject matter taught in classes in schools and colleges is 



INVESTIGATION OF COMRltTNIST ACTIVITIES 3569 

in my opinion covered by the guaranties of the first amendment. Also 
under the fifth amendment, I have the riglit to refuse to answer because 
the answer I give might tend to incriminate me. 

Would you repeat your question ? 

The Chairman. No, I withdraw my question. Proceed, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. You have, I take it, great reverence for the Constitution 
of the United States ? 

Mr. Williams. I do. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of an organization dedi- 
cated to the destruction of the Constitution of the United States? 

Mr. Williams. On that question I will refuse to answer under my 
privileges guaranteed by the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Does your reverence for the Constitution cease after you 
have wrapped yourself in a cloak of inununity behind the fifth 
amendment? 

Mr. AViLLiAMS. I believe I will answer that in the same way under 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kearney. I understood from your testimony that you have been 
a teacher in the public schools of North Carolina. 

Mr. Williams. That is true. 

Mr. Ke.\rney. Do you believe that a member of the Communist 
Party should be allowed to teach the youth of America in our public 
schools? 

Mr. Williams. I am going to refuse to answer that question for the 
same reason. 

Mr. Arens. You have told us about your education, where you re- 
ceived your A. B., your M. A., and your Ph. D. degrees. Now tell us 
about some other instruction you may have been receiving in North 
Carolina. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Williams. I will refuse to answer that question for the same 
reason, under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you taken other instruction since you received 
your Ph. D. degree wliich you cannot tell us about for fear of giving 
us facts which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Williams. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact, that you are now one of the top Communist leaders in this 
State, and that you were in attendance at the leadership training school 
of the Communist Party held at Walnut Cove, N. C., in August of 
1952. 

Mr. Williams. You made a statement. Did you mean it as a 
question ? 

]\Ir. Arens. Yes, sir. I ask you to affirm or deny that as a fact. 

Mr. WiLLL\MS. I am going to refuse to answer that question based 
on my privileges under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photograph which has been identified 
in this record, and ask you whether or not you recognize the physical 
object which is portrayed in that photograph ? 

^Ir. Williams. The same answer as to the previous question. 

Mr. Arens. That photograph, let the record show, ]\Ir. Chairman, 
has been identified on this record as the photograph of the Binkley 



3570 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

farmhouse where the leadership trainmg school sessions were held in 
August of 1952. 

Mr. Williams, a gentleman took oath before this committee yester- 
day and testified among other things that he knew you as a member of 
the Communist Party. This man's name was Charles Childs. Was 
he lying or was he telling the truth ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Williams. Would you repeat the question, Mr. Arens? 

Mr. Arens. I prefer to have the reporter read it back so there will 
be no question about it. 

(Question referred to read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Williams. I am going to refuse to answer that question. My 
reasons are — I am going to refuse to answer the question, using the 
privileges guaranteed me under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr, Arens. Do you know or have you known a person by the name 
of Charles Childs? 

Mr. Williams. I will answer that question in the same way. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee whether or not you know or have known a person by the name 
of Charles Childs you would be supplying information which could 
be used against you in a criminal proceeding ? 

Mr. Williams. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that last question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Williams. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. You hold a Ph.D. degree in philosophy ; is that correct? 

Mr. Williams. No ; I hold a doctor of philosophy degree in Euro- 
pean history. 

Mr. Arens. Are you, while you are presently employed in your 
occupation as a metalworker, also engaged in an activity directed 
toward the colonizing of workers within the industry in which you 
are employed ? 

Mr. Williams. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. In your present employment are you reporting or re- 
ceiving instructions from an organization which is controlled by a 
foreign government ? 

Mr. Williams. I will answer that question in the same way. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee under oath whether or not you are presently receiving instruc- 
tions in your work, at the plant at wliich you are employed, from a 
foreign power you would be supplying information which could be 
used against you in a criminal proceeding ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Williams. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. You have relied upon the first amendment in the course 
of your colloquies with me this morning. Do you honestly apprehend 
that inquiries as to Communist Party affiliations, associations, and 
activities is an inquiry as to political belief? 

Mr. Williams. I will refuse to answer that question, which I am 
privileged to do under the rights guaranteed me by the first and fifth 
amendments. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3571 

Mr. Arens. You know, do you not, that the Communist Party in 
the United States is not a political party, but a foreign-controlled 
conspiracy ? 

Mr. Williams. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. While you were teaching at the University of North 
Carolina, and at high schools in this State, did you undertake to 
inculcate in the minds of the students the ideology of communism? 

Mr. Williams. I will answer that question in the same way as I 
answered the previous question. 

Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline while 
you were instructing the students of this State ? 

Mr. Williams. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us, please, sir, any other names by which you have 
been known besides the name Warren Williams, which appears on 
your subpena. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Williams. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. You have used a name, which is not your true name, 
in certain sessions ; have you not ? 

Mr. Williams. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Williams, when you were inducted into the United 
States Air Force, did you take an oath of allegiance to the United 
States ? 

Mr. Williams. I believe that is standard procedure. 

Mr. Arens. Was the essence of the oath you took that you would be 
loyal to this country and defend it against all enemies, foreign and 
domestic ? 

Mr. Williams. I have never done anything disloyal against this 
country. 

Mr. Arens. Have you belonged to a foreign-controlled conspiracy? 

Mr. Williams. I am going to refuse to answer that question, using 
as a basis my privileges under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. If you haven't done anything disloyal, why don't you 
stand up like a red-blooded American and say, "No, I have never been 
a member of a foreign-controlled conspiracy designed to overthrow 
this Government by force and violence." 

Mr. Williams. I will answer that question in the same way that 
I did the previous question. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you would deny 
under oath before this committee that you have been a member of a 
foreign-controlled conspiracy you would be giving information which 
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. Williams. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Williams. I will still answer in the same v:ny. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you 
joined the United States Air Force ? 

Mr. Williams. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your activities in the United 
States Air Force were you under Communist Party discipline? 

Mr, Williams. I will answer that question in the same way as the 
previous question. 



3572 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your activities in the United 
States Air Force, did you procure and transmit confidential or re- 
stricted information to a person not authorized by hiw to receive the 
same ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Williams. Same answer. 

Mr. Kearney. You said that when you were inducted into the 
service you took the standard oath of allegiance to the United States. 

Mr. Williams. I said that was standard procedure in the services. 
I assume I must have taken it. 

Mr. Kearney. Don't you know whether you did or not ? 

Mr. Williams. It has been almost 15 years. I assume I did. 

Mr. Kearney. It has been more than that since I have taken mine, 
and I can still remember. I don't think that any man who ever took 
the oath for wearing the uniform of his country could ever forget. 
You were, as 1 understand it, commissioned later? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Williams. Did you ask a question ? 

Mr. Kearney. You know I did ; didn't you ? 

Mr. Williams. Could it be repeated ? 

Mr. Kearney. Were you commissioned later? 

Mr. Williams. I was. 

Mr. Kearney. What year ? 

Mr. Williams. 1943. 

Mr. Kearney. And when you were commissioned in 1943, did you 
at that time have to take another oath of allegiance to the United 
States of America ? 

Mr. Williams. That is right ; we did. 

Mr. Kearney. You remember that one ? 

Mr. Williams. That is right. 

Mr. Kearney. You said you have done nothing disloyal to the Gov- 
ernment of the United States. That is in substance your own words ; 
is that not correct ? 

Mr. Williams. I believe I said I have never done anything disloyal 
to my country. 

Mr. Kearney. As the time that you took your oath of allegiance to 
the United States as an officer in the Air Corps were you a member 
of tlie Communist Party ? 

Mr. Williams. To that question I will give this answer: I refuse 
to answer the question, using as my basis my privileges under the 
first and fifth amendments. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist Party this 
minute ? 

Mr. Williams. I will answer that question in the same way tliat 1 
answered the previous question. 

The Chairman. You are excused. Call your next witness, Mr. 
Arens. 

Mr. Arens. Viola Brown. 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand. Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
notiiing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Miss Brown. I do. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3573 

TESTIMONY OF VIOLA BROWN; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
EHODA LAKS AND JAMES D. GILLILAND 

Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Miss Brown. Miss Viola Brown, 1210 Wallace Street, Winston- 
Salem, N.C. • 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena 
served upon you by tliis committee ? 

Miss Brown. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Miss Brown. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you engage counsel to represent you ? 

Miss Brown. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify themselves ? 

Miss Laks. Rlioda Laks, 615 Columbus Avenue, New York City. 

Mr. GiELiLAND. James D. Gilliland, Warrenton, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. You have just told us that you engaged counsel. When 
did you first meet counsel ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Miss Brown. I met Mr. Gilliland this morning and oMiss Laks 
Sunday. 

Mr. Arens. How did you happen to meet them? Did you initiate 
the conference or did they ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel. ) 

]\Iiss Brown. That is a confidential relation between lawyer and 
client. 

The Chairman. No ; it is not. We are not asking you about any- 
thing that transpired between you two. We merely want to know 
how you happen to appear here with the same lawyers who repre- 
sented all the other witnesses who invoked the amendments to the 
Constitution. 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

The Chairman. Every one of whom has been identified as a Com- 
munist, incidentally. 

INIiss Brown. As to Miss Laks, I refuse under the first and fifth 
amendments. For Mr. Gilliland, Miss Laks introduced me this 
morning. 

The Chairman. In other Avords, you invoke the fifth amendment 

Miss Brown. On Miss Laks. 

The Chairman. On Miss Laks ? 

Miss Brown. Yes. 

The Chairman. Why ? 

Miss Brown. The same answer. 

The Chairman. In other words, you believe if you answered the 
question asked you about Miss Laks it might subject you to a criminal 
prosecution ; is that correct ? 

Miss Brown. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, she be ordered 
and directed to answer that last question. 

The CriAiRMAN. You are directed to answer that question. 

Miss Brown. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you born ? 

Miss Brown, In Catawba County. 



3574 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Of North Carolina ? 

Miss Brown, Of North Carolina. 

Mr. Arens. "Where were you educated ? 

Miss Brown. In the public schools, elementaiy schools. 

Mr. Arens. How far did you get in public schools ? 

Miss Brown. Elementary schools. 

Mr. Arens. When did you graduate from the public schools ? 

Miss Brown. In the early twenties. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, a chronology of the employments 
which you have had since graduating from school. 

Miss Brown. Domestic worker and for 5 years I worked for a 
tobacco company. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you presently employed ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Miss Brown. In Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Where in Winston-Salem ? 

Miss Brown. At Winston-Salem Teachers College. 

Mr. Arens. What do you do at Winston-Salem Teachers College? 

Miss Brown. A domestic worker. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us some of the activities of a public nature in which 
you have engaged during the last few years. 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer under the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Kearney. I can't hear the witness, Mr. Comisel. 

Mr. Arens. Would you please keep your voice up? The committee 
members are having difficulty hearing your answers. 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer under the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you mean to say if you tell this committee of the 
United States Congress of the activities of a public nature in which 
you have engaged in this State during the last few years, you would be 
supplying information which could be used against you in a criminal 
proceeding ? 

Miss Brown. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Miss Brown. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us some of the organizations to which you have 
belonged. 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer that question under the privileges 
of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you belong to any organizations you can tell us 
about without giving information which could be used against you in 
a criminal proceeding? 

Miss Brown. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, she be ordered 
and directed to answer that question. 

The CiiAiRjiAN. You are directed to answer the questions. 

Miss Brown. I refuse under the same basis. 

Mr. Arens. I lay before you a ]^liotograph which has been identified 
in this i-ocord, and ask you whether or not it refreshes your recollec- 
tion of any event in your life within the last few years. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3575 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer under the privileges of the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I suggest before the witness answers 
the question, she look at the photograph. 

Miss Brown. I looked at the photograph. 

Mr. Arens. Have you told us all of the education you received? I 
believe you told us about your education at the elementary school. 
Tell us about some of the other education you received. 

Miss Brown. The same answer, 

Mr, Arens. Have you been doing a little book reading on your own, 
a little self-education ? 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer that under the privileges of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you attended any schools other than the elemen- 
tary school that you told us about ? 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer that on the same basis. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly look over your right shoulder and 
see if you recognize that gentleman who is seated against the wall. 

(Witness looking.) 

Mr. Arens. Do you recognize him ? 

Miss Brown. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. What do you mean, the same answer? 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer under the privileges of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens, Wliy? 

Miss Brown. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. That man you just looked at a moment ago was here 
yesterday before this committee and under oath said that you were 
one of those who attended a Communist Party leadership training 
school at Walnut Cove, N. C, in August 1952. Was he lying or was 
he telling the truth ? 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer that under the privileges of the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been to Walnut Cove ? 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer that on the same basis. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever know a person by the name of Alice Burke ? 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer that under the privileges of the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. She was organizer for the Communist Party for 
North Carolina in 1945, wasn't she ? 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer that under the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever know a woman by the name of Anne Eliza- 
beth Mathews ? 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer that on the same basis. 

Mr. Arens. How about Velma Hopkins. Did you ever know her? 

Miss Brown. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Wliy? 

Miss Brown. I have the privilege to refuse to answer under the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been active in the Tri-State Negro Labor 
Council of this State ? 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the first and fifth 
amendments. 



3576 INVESTIGATION OF COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES 

INIr. Arens, You would not be ashamed of anything you did for the 
uplift of society, would 3'ou ? 

Miss Browx. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. The truth is, is it not, that you are active and have 
been active in the Tri-State Negro Labor Council and in the National 
Negro Labor (\iuncil ? 

INIiss Brown. I refuse to answer that under the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

INIiss BRinvN. I refuse to answer that on the same basis. 

]\[r. .Vrens. Do you Icnow a man by the name of Nathaniel Bond who 
testified here yesterday ? 

INIiss Brown. 1 refuse to answer on the privilege of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been active in any organizations Avith Na- 
thaniel Bond? 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer on the same basis. 

INIr. Arens. Are vou now a member of the (^onnnunist Partv ? 

« * 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer that on the basis and privilege of 
the Hrst and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Did you talk to your employers at Winston-Salem 
Teachers College when you receive your subpena? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

INIiss Brown. I just asked for the day off. 

Mr. Arens. Whom did vou ask to a:ive you the dav off? 

JNIiss Brown. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. You know that could not incriminate you at all. Tell 
us whom you asked for the day off. 

(Witness consulted her counsel. 

Miss Brown. I sent word by my sister. I don't know the superior 
she told. 

Mr. Arens. You just asked for the day off. Did j^ou tell them 
why you wanted the day off? 

Miss Brown. No. 

Mr. Arens. Do your employers know where you are today ? 

JNIiss Brown. I don't know. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever talked to them about why you might 
be coming to Charlotte? 

Miss Brown. No. 

JNIr. Arens. Do you propose to talk to them some more when you 
get back ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Miss Brown. I don't know Avhat I will do when I get back. 

Mr. Arens. Li July of 1047, Anne Elizabeth MaUiews identified 
you in testimony before this committee as a person known by her 
to have been a member of tlie Communist Party. Did your eui])ioyers 
at the Winston-Salem Teachers College ever talk to you about that!' 

Miss Brown. I refuse to answer under the basis of tlie first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, ;Mr. Chairman, that the M'itness 
be ordered and directed to answer tliat last question. 

The CnAiR:MAN. You are directed to answer the question. 

Miss Brown. The same answer. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3577 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact tliat in the recent past you have been identified as an active 
member and agitator of the Tri-State Negro Labor Council, and the 
National Negro Labor Council. 

Miss Brown, I refuse to answer that on the basis of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Kearney. The reason I asked you to look at the photograph 
counsel placed before you a while ago before answering so quickly, 
was for the reason that it might have been a picture of your own 
home. 

Miss Brown. I looked at it. 

Mr. Kearney. After you answered. 

Miss Brown. I looked at it. 

The Chairman. Tlie witness is excused. 

Call your next witness. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. William A. McGirt, Jr., please come forward. 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand, please. Do you swear the 
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole trutli, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. McGirt. I do, so help me God. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ARCHIBALD McGIRT, JR., ACCOMPANIED 
BY COUNSEL, RHODA LAKS AND JAMES D. GILLILAND 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and 
])osition. 

Mr. McGirt. My name is William Archibald McGirt, Jr., I live 
at 500 West Seventh Street, Winston-Salem, N. C. I am a fish dresser 
in the city market in Winston -Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena served 
upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. IMcGiRT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel? 

Mr. McGiRT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify themselves? 

Miss Laks. Rlioda Laks, 615 Columbus Avenue, New York City. 

Mr. Gilliland. James D. Gilliland, North Carolina bar, of War- 
renton, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. You engaged these counsel? 

Mr. McGiRT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. When did you first become acquainted with your lady 
counsel. Miss Laks? 

Mr. McGiRT. A couple of years ago. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us the nature of that acquaintanceship? 

Mr. McGiRT. I was introduced to her at a social engagement. 

Mr. Arens. Where was that social engagement? 

Mr. McGiRT. In New York. 

Mr. Arens. Under whose auspices was that social engagement held ? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my privilege 
of tlie fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. As a matter of fact, that social engagement was held 
under the auspices of the Communist Party; wasn't it? 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer, sir. 



3578 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Do you think it is odd that the Communist Party would 
hold a session at which you and the hidy counsel would meet each other 
socially ? 

Mr, McGiRT. The same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee the truth as to whether or not the social function at which you 
iirst met Miss Laks was under the auspices of the Conmiunist Party, 
you would be supplying information which would be used against you 
in a criminal proceeding ? 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell this committee whether or not you as- 
certained at this social function that your counsel was a member of 
the Communist conspiracy ? 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. I take it that you just met your gentleman counsel in 
the last few days ; is that correct ? 

Mr. McGiRT. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. At whose solicitation did you meet your gentleman 
counsel ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Did he approach you or did you approach him ? 

Mr. McGiRT. My attorney, Miss Laks, introduced me to him. 

Mr. Arens. She initiated the consultation; is that correct? 

Mr. McGiRT. She introduced me to him. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give us a brief resume of your edu- 
cational background? First of all, where and when were you born? 

Mr. McGirt. I was born in Wilmington, N. C, on May 4, 1923. 

Mr. Arens. And where did you go to school, please, sir? 

Mr. McGtrt. At the age of 6 I entered Forrest Hills Elementary 
School in Wilmington, N. C. After elementary school, I went to New 
Hanover High School and graduated there in 1939. The same year 
I entered Duke University and was graduated from there with an 
A. B. degree in 1943. 

Mr. Arens. Does that complete your formal education ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon? 

Mr. McGiRT. I almost forgot it myself. I had a couple of months 
in graduate school but decided not to continue. 

Mr. Arens. Was that at Duke ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any other education or attend classes 
of any consequences. 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my privileges 
under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. You told us about attending Duke University and your 
studies there. "Wliy can't you tell us about some of your other 
studies ? 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. You are not ashamed of it ? 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you feel that if you told this committee truthfully 
what other classes you attended, you would be supplying informa- 
tion which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ? 



INVESTIGATION OF COJVUMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3579 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under the privileges 
of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Would you look over your shoulder to the right and see 
if you recognize that gentleman wearing the eyeglasses? 

(Witness looking.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that under my privileges mider 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. That gentleman, Mr. Childs, testified yesterday that 
you were in attendance at a Communist Party leadership training 
school held at Walnut Cove in August 1952. Was he lying or was 
he telling the truth? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been to Walnut Cove ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Let us have, if you please, sir, the chronology of your 
employments. 

Mr. McGiRT. I worked for my dad a little when I was a kid, off 
and on, during high-school years. After I was graduated from school, 
I worked for the North Carolina Shipbuilding Co. 

Mr. Arens. Where was that ? 

Mr. McGiRT. In Wilmington, New Hanover County. I don't know 
whether it was in the city limits or not. After that I worked as a gate- 
keeper at Chimney Rock, N. C. I worked at the library. 

Mr. Arens. The library at the University of North Carolina? 

Mr. ]\IcGiRT. The library and cafeteria of the University of North 
Carolina. 

Mr. Arens. ^^lien did you work in the library at the University of 
North Carolina? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I will have to guess. 

Mr. Arens. Just your best recollection. 

Mr. McGiRT. It was in late 1947 or early 1948 as well as I can 
remember. 

Mr. Arens. What were your duties at the library ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Mostly shelve books and also sometimes to wait on 
the patrons that came in. 

Mr. Arens. Proceed with your employment, sir. 

Mr. McGiRT. After that 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I worked in a meat market in Winston-Salem for a 
year and a half and in the fish market where I am presently employed. 
Any that I have omitted I decline to answer under my privilege under 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Is there some employment that you have had con- 
cerning which you cannot tell us for fear of supplying information 
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my privilege 
under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether the witness under- 
stands the question. Let me repeat it. 

75146 — 56 6 



3580 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Is there any employment you have had which yon cannot tell us 
about for fear if you do you would be supplying information that 
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

]Mr. McGiRT. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that he be ordered and directed 
to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question. 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under the privileges 
of the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. The fact of the matter is that you are the head of 
the Carolina district of the Communist Party, aren't you? 

Mr. MoGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my privilege 
under the first and fifth amendments. 

The Chairman. You prepared this circular concerning this com- 
mittee of the Congress of the United States, did you not? 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. When you were served with a subpena to appear before 
this committee, did you issue a statement to the press ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my privilege 
under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question. In that 
connection, I would like to say that nothing you or your lawyers 
say after you leave this hearing room will in any way affect the 
sworn testimony adduced at this fiearing. 

Mr. McGiRT. I didn't understand thai: last part, sir. 

The Chairman. It is all right whether you understand it or not. 
Proceed, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. Did you issue a statement to the press which included 
the following : 

In the last several years I have known Communists and others who were 
not too afraid or too hysterical to work with Communists on specific issues. 
When I think an issue is right, I don't examine who is right but what is right 
and worlv with whomever I can. It is my humble opinion, by the way, that 
the Communists I have known will in the main stand up well in comparison 
with any other group of Americans in courage, in love of fellow man, and in 
devotion to the real needs of the American people. 

Did you issue such a statement to the public press ? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my privilege 
of the first amendment. 

Mr. Arens. You are not ashamed of what you issued to the public 
press ; are you ? 

]\Ir. McGnrr. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. You were not under oath when you issued this state- 
ment to the public press ; were you ? 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you presently have the same attitude toward Com- 
munists and their courage that you had on March 3 wdien you issued 
this statement to the public press ? 

Mr. McGntT. Same answer. 

Mr. Kearney. Counsel, does the portion of that statement about 
courage, contain the words "love of country" ? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3581 

Mr. Arens. I do not see it, Congressman. We might ask the wit- 
ness. Did you supplement this statement at the time you issued it to 
the public press by any proclamation respecting your patriotism or 
the patriotism of the Communists? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. When you are released from this subpena, released 
from the pains and penalties of perjury, do you propose to step out 
in the hall and issue some other statement to the effect that, "Of 
course I am not a Communist, but I wouldn't tell that witch-hunting 
committee that I am not a Communist" ? 

Mr. McGiRT. You did not let me finish the other question. 

Mr. Arens. Go ahead. 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer the question under the first and 
fifth amendments to the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. When released from your subpena, tell us what you 
propose to do about telling the public press and the people of this 
State about your courage and patriotism. 

Mr. McGiRT. Same answer. 

The Chairman. I do not think it is so material, but I do think 
that when counsel resorts to the same sort of thing, it is not within the 
code of ethics that we know in the State of Pennsylvania. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, you are, of course, referring to counsel 
for the witness. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Counsel, in other words, that statement issued 
to the press was not given under oath. 

Mr. Arens. No, sir. And he will not even admit issuing it. 

Mr. Kearney. The w^itness' answers to all the questions asked here, 
if you can call them answers, are under oath. 

Mr, Arens. Did you under date of November 28, 1955, send a letter 
to the editor of the Greensboro Daily News ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Are you through wath the question ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my right under 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I lay before you an original clipping from the Greens- 
boro Daily News of November 28, 1955, and ask you to summon all the 
courage that you spoke about in your press release a day or so ago, and 
see if you can identify that article as an article prepared by you and 
submitted to the editor of this paper. 

(Witness consulted with his counsel and looks at clipping.) 

Mr. McGiRT. What was the question, sir ? 

Mr. Arens. Summon all this courage that you talked about in 
your news release and tell this committee whether or not you sent this 
letter, which I have just displayed to you, to the editor of the Greens- 
boro Daily News. 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my rights un- 
der the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. You are not ashamed of what you sent to this editor, 
are you ? 

Mr. INIcGiRT. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. You have not lost courage, have you ? 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer. 



3582 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. In your letter to the editor of the Greensboro Daily 
News, the following appears: 

I do not believe that public airing of any and all viewpoints can possibly hurt 
the truth or endanger our democracy. 

Did you submit that letter to the editor of the Greensboro Daily 
News ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. Same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever read this before ? 

Mr. McGiRT. I just read it. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever read it before today ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel in your own heart at this moment 
that the public airing of any and all viewpoints can possibly hurt the 
truth or endanger our democracy ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I believe in the Constitution of the United States and 
everything it says without apology. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of an organization dedi- 
cated to the overthrow of the Government of the United States and 
the destruction of the Constitution of the United States ? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question on the ground of 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Kearney. But you do believe in the Constitution of the United 
States according to your previous answers. 

Mr. McGiRT. I certainly do. 

Mr. Kearney. As of this moment. 

Mr. McGiRT. I have always believed this. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to lay before you certain documents. See 
if you can help this committee as one who believes there ought to be 
an airing of the truth. Let us see if we can air a little truth. 

Here is a photostatic copy, Mr. McGirt, of the Daily Worker of 
]Monday, July 10, 1950, page 9, which deals with support of a state- 
ment of the National Labor Conference for Peace urging the with- 
drawal of United States troops from Korea. It lists the names of 
some of its supporters who were officials of certain organizations and 
the name of a W. A. McGirt, Jr., is among those mentioned. I lay 
that article before you now and see if it prompts your recollection to 
reveal the truth courageously, as you have stated in your press release, 
to the people of this State and to this committee. 

Mr. McGirt. I decline to answer that question, sir, under my 
privilege under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you lost your courage ? 

Mr. McGirt. Same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that there be 
incorporated by reference in the record, for retention in the files of 
the committee, the article I have just shown the witness; and that 
there be incorporated in the record the citation of the organization, 
the National Labor Conference for Peace, by the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3583 

(The citation follows :) 

NATIONAL LABOH CONFERENCE FOR PEACE (SUITE 905, 179 WEST 
WASHINGTON STREET, CHICAGO, ILL.) 

1. Cited as having been organized with the aid of Communist-controlled unions 
and Communist labor figures with "the official stamp of the Communist 
Party," as evidenced by articles In the Daily Worker and the Daily 
Peoples' World. 

{Congressional Committee on Un-American Activities, House Report 
No. 378, on the Communist "Peace" Offensive, April 25, 1951, 
original date, April 1, 1951, p. 64.) 

I lay before you another document and ask you to summon all this 
courage you were talking about and all this frankness and candor that 
you want to air publicly. This is a photostatic copy of a document 
of the Congress on American-Soviet Kelations, sponsored by the 
National Council of American-Soviet Friendship. It has a list of 
endorsers of this enterprise, including a W. A. McGirt, Jr., of Win- 
ston-Salem, N. C. Does that document refresh your recollection so 
that you can make a greater revelation of facts to this committee and 
the people of this community in which you live ? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question, sir, under my right 
of the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution of the United 
States. 

Mr. Arens. You haven't lost your courage ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you tell this committee 
the truth whether or not that name, W. A. ISIcGirt, Jr., is yours, you 
would be supplying information Avhich could be used against you in 
a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the above-re ferred-to docu- 
ment be incorporated by reference in this record for retention in the 
files of the committee, and that the citation by the special Committee 
on Un-American Activities and a citation by the then Attorney Gen- 
eral in 1947-48 of the National Council of American-Soviet Friend- 
ship as a Communist organization be incorporated in the record. 

(The citations follow:) 

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF AMERICAN-SOVIET FRIENDSHIP 

1. Cited as subversive and Communist. 

{Attorney Oeneral Tom Clark, letters to Loyalty Revieio Board, released 
December 4, 19 Jp, and September 21, 19Jf8.) 

2. "In recent months, the Communist Party's principal front for all things Rus- 

sian has been known as the National Council for American-Soviet Friend- 
ship." 

{Special Committee on Un-American Activities, Report, March 29, 1944, 
p. 156.) 

Mr. McGiRT. You might let me answer my question. 
Mr. Arens. You go ahead. Perhaps you can give ns a better 
explanation. 



3584 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

jNIr. McGiRT. You keep interrupting me before I finish. 

Mr. Arens. I am very sorry because I do not want to interrupt any- 
thing you might want to say that would be in the courageous 
patriotic nature which you proclaimed to the press when served with 
your subpena. We would be very glad to hear you proceed along that 
line. 

(No response.) 

Mr. Arens. I lay before you, Mr. Witness, photostatic copy of a 
document, Let the Youth Speak for Peace. It is young people's festi- 
val and field day under the American Peoples Congress and Exposi- 
tion for Peace, held in Chicago, June 29, 30, and July 1, 1951, spon- 
sored by the American Peace Crusade. Listed here are the youth 
sponsors, including a person identified as W. A. McGirt, Jr., of Win- 
ston-Salem, N. C. 

Does this document refresh your recollection sufficiently to clear 
your mind and thus enable you to courageously portray the facts to 
the people of this community and to this committee ? 

(Looking at document.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my right under 
the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution of the United States. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know William A McGirt, Jr., of Winston- 
Salem, N. C. ? W^e ought to be in contact with W. A. McGirt, Jr., of 
Winston-Salem, N. C. Do you know of any other W. A. McGirt ? 

Mr. McGirt. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the above-referred-to docu- 
ment be incorporated by reference in this record for retention in the 
committee files, and the citation by the Kouse Committee on Un-Amer- 
ican Activities of the American Peace Crusade as an established Com- 
munist organization be incorporated in this record. 

(The citation follows:) 

AMERICAN PEACE CRUSADE (ORGANIZED IN .JANUARY 1951, WITH 
NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS AT 1186 BROADWAY, NEW YORK 1, N. Y.) 

1. Cited as an organization which "the Communists establislied" as "a new instru- 
ment for their 'peace' offensive in the United States" and which was 
heralded by the Daily Worker "with the usual bold headlines reserved 
for projects in line with the Communist objectives." 

{Congressional Committee on Vn-American Activities, statement 
issued on the March of Treason, Fcbniarif 19, 1951, and House 
Report No. 378, on the Communist "Peace" Offensive, April 25, 1951, 
original date, April 1, 1951, p. 51.) 

The Chairman. I thought the Attorney General also cited it. 

Mr. Arens. It was cited by the Attorney General in 1954. 

Mr. Witness, I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document 
entitled, "Committee for Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact," 
listing the names of persons in this organization who were 
proponents of a peaceful alternative to the Atlantic Pact. It includes 
a person by the name of W. A. McGir.st, Jr., Food, Tobacco, and Agri- 
cultural Workers, CIO, Local 22, Winston-Salem. I ask if your 
observation of that document in any way refreshes your recollection 
and prompts your courage to make a revelation of the facts to this 
committee, and to the people of this comnuniity. 

Mr. McGiRT. Concerning my courage, sir, I have never run away 
from anything in my life. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3585 

Mr. Arens. Why don't you stand up and tell this committee whether 
you are now a member of the Communist conspiracy 'i 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

The Chairman. It looks to me like you are running very fast from 
something this morning. 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my right of 
the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution of the United States. 

The Chairman. In other words, you are courageously hiding behind 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. McGiRT. Is there anything wrong with using the Constitution 
of the United States, or do we abide by that still in this country? 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us whether or not you have ever 
been identified with the Food, Tobacco, and Agricultural Workers, 
CIO, Local 22, of Winston-Salem ? 

Mr. McGiRT, I decline to answer that question, sir, under my right 
of the first and fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer. 

The Chairman. Did you specify a date, Mr. Arens? 

Mr. Arens. I merely asked him if he has ever been identified with 
that union, Mr. Chairman, May I respectfully suggest that the last 
document I displayed to the witness on the Committee for Peace- 
ful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact be incorporated by reference 
in this record and retained in the files of the committee, and that the 
citation of that committee as a Communist controlled organization 
be incorporated into this record ? 

(The citation follows :) 

COMMITTEE FOR PEACEFUL ALTERNATIVES TO THE ATLANTIC PACT 

I. Cited as an organization which was formed as a result of the Conference for 
Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact, and which was located, accord- 
ing to a letterhead of September 16, 1950, at 30 North Dearborn Street, 
Chicago 2, 111. ; and to further the cause of "Communists in the United 
States" doing "their part in the Moscow campaign." 

{Congressional Committee on Un-American Aetivities, House Report 
No. 378, on the Communist "Peace" Offensive, April 25, 1951, original 
date April 1, 1951, p. 5^.) 

Have you ever been known by any name other than the name which 
appears on your subpena, William A. McGirt, Jr. ? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that, sir, under my right under 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Kearney. I would like to make the observation, Mr. Counsel, 
that that is a very courageous answer, 

Mr. Arens. Do you know, or have you known a person by the name 
of Junius Scales i 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my right of 
the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution of the United States. 

The Chairman. We will take a 5 minute recess at this point. 

(Present at the taking of the recess were Representatives Walter, 
Willis, and Kearney.) 

(Short recess.) 



3586 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

(Present after the recess were Representatives Walter, Willis, and 
Kearney.) 

The Chairman. The committee will be in order. 

A moment ago, Mr. Arens, the witness was asked about the Com- 
mittee for Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact. During this 
short recess I had an opportunity to examine its membership, and it 
seems to me that this presents a typical and striking example of how 
well-meaning people are imposed upon. This page of tlie States 
involved contains only the States of North Carolina and Ohio, but 
on that committee for North Carolina there are five clergymen, one 
college professor, and the present witness. For Ohio, the next State, 
alphabetically, it contains the names of 30 people, 27 clergymen, 3 
college professors, and Hugh De Lacy, a well-known card-carrying 
Communist. This, I think, is something that the American people 
should understand, and the unwary ought not to become members of 
ar y type of organization about which they are not thoroughly in- 
fo rmed. I am going to ask you whether or not you know Miss Jule T. 
Bouchard. 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my right 
of the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution. 

The Chairman. Miss Bouchard, secretary of the Committee for 
Peaceful Alternatives. Is that the person you will not admit knowing 
for fear your answer might subject you to a criminal prosecution? 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I am sure you did not mean by your 
comments to imply that this particular witness was imposed on or was 
unwary when he participated in the activities of this Committee for 
Peaceful Alternatives. 

The Chairman. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Witness, would you kindly give us the street address 
where you now reside ? 

Mr. McGiRT. 500 West 7th Street. 

Mr. Arens. And your mailing address ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. Post Office Box 135. 

Mr. Arens. Post Office Box 135, Winston-Salemen, N. C? 

Mr. McGiRT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us whether or not that is also the mailing 
address for any other person, organization, group, or association ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my right 
under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Tell this committee what a "mail drop" is. 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I don't think I know, sir, unless it is a place where 
you mail letters. Is that what you mean ? 

Mr. Arens. See if this refreshes your recollection. A "mail drop" 
is a place to which secret documents are transmitted for an organiza- 
tion that wants to use a blind. Do you know anything about that? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my right 
under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever used Post Office Box No. 2884 at Win- 
ston-Salem, N. C. ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3587 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question, sir, under my right 
under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. That was the mail drop of the Communist Party in one 
section of this State ; isn't tliat true ? 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. I think we ought to clear this record, Mr. McGirt, 
with respect to the period in your life which is shrouded in darkness, 
this period which is behind the veil of secrecy. Over what period of 
time were you employed in a capacity about which you cannot tell us ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. IMcGirt. As to the rest of my employment, sir, and the time 
related to it, I decline to answer that question under the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. We will trv it the hard way. Where were you em- 
ployed in 1945 ? 

('witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I think part of that year I was employed at Chimney 
Rock. I don't remember all of it. 

Mr. Arens. Was it the first part of the year or the latter part of the 
year? 

Mr. McGiRT. Let me finish my answer, please, sir. 

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. McGiRT. Part of the time I was unemployed that year, and the 
other part — I think that is the year I worked one season at Chimney 
Rock. 

Mr. Arens. Let us try 1946. Where were you employed in 1946? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. 1946? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. McGiRT, I think that winter, the early part, I was unemployed. 
My mother was ill. I was helping to nurse her. I think that summer 
I worked at Chimney Rock again. 

Mr. Arens. Was there any employment during 1946 which you 
cannot tell us about? 

Mr. McGiRT. I don't remember, sir. 

INIr. Arens. Let us try 1947. Is there any employment in 1947 
that you cannot tell us about ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I had several jobs. I was unemployed part of the 
time, too. I think it was then that I worked in the cafeteria — I believe 
they called it the Pine Room — at the university. I think it was that 
same year I started working for the library there. 

Mr. Arens. Is there any employment in 1947 that you cannot tell us 
about ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Not that I remember, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You can save time by telling us what year or what years 
it was that you cannot tell us about your emploj-ment. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. ISIcGiRT. Was that a question, sir? 

Mr. Arens. I am just suggesting it to you. We will try 1948. Was 
there any employment in 1948 you cannot tell us about ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my right un- 
der the first and fifth amendments. 



3588 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Where were you employed in January 1948 ? 

(Witness consulted liis counsel.) 

Mr. McGiKT. In January 1948? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. Where were you employed then ? 

Mr. McGiRT. I believe I was working at the university library at 
North Carolina. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us when it was during 1948 that you began employ- 
ment about which you cannot tell us ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under 

Mr. Arens. We will try March 1948. Where were you employed in 
March 1948? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. You keep interrupting me, sir. 

Mr. Arens. I apologize, sir. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I 
mean to be courteous to you. Where were you employed in March 1948 ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I was still at the university, sir. 

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. McGiRT. In March ? 

Mr. Arens. In March 1948. 

Mr. McGiRT. I think I was still working at the university library. 
I am fuzzy about these dates because I don't keep a chart of these 
dates. 

The Chairman. To the best of your recollection. 

Mr. McGiRT. I am giving you my best recollection. 

]\Ir. Arens. Let us try June 1948 ; where were you employed then ? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under my right un- 
der the first and fifth amendments to the United States Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. When in 1948 did you leave your employment at the 
University of North Carolina ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I think it was sometime in the spring of that year. 

Mr. Arens. Then what was your next employment? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question, sir, under my right 
under the first and fifth amendments of the United States Constitu- 
tion. 

Mr. Arens. How long was your next employment? 

Mr. McGiRT. Same answei-. 

Mr, Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer tliat question. 

The Chairman. The question is how long, not what it was. How 
long were you employed in the next emi:)loyment. I direct you to 
answer that question. 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Was the next employment full-time employment? 

Mr. McGiRT. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you presently have any employment other than your 
employment at the fisli market ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question under the first and 
fifth amendments, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have employment in addition to your employ- 
ment at the fish market ? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3589 

Mr. McGiRT. That is the same question and the same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us your employment in January of 1950. 

Mr. INIcGiRT. That is when I started working at the meat market, 
1 think. 

Mr. Arens. How about January 19i9 ? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question, sir, under my right 
under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. How about December 1949 ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Then was it from the spring of 1948 through Decem- 
ber of 1949 that you were engaged in this employment which is 
shrouded in secrecy? 

Mr. McGiRT. The same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Pertaining to which you courageously will not tell us ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Same answer. 

]Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in the United States Army ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. McGiRT. No, sir. 

INIr. Arens. Have you ever been in the military at all ? 

Mr. McGiRT. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens, Were you ever subject to the draft ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Yes," sir. 

Mr. Arens. What transpired ? How did it happen that you were 
not drafted ? 

Mr. McGirt. I got a statement from them saying that I didn't pass 
the physical requirements. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been an adv^ocate of withdrawing the United 
States troops from Korea during the Korean conflict ? 

Mr. MoGiRT. I decline to answer that question, sir, under the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Where was your courage and patriotism when you 
joined with others urging the withdrawal of the United States troops 
from Korea while they were engaged in mortal combat with the 
North Korean Comnumists? 

Mr. McGirt. The same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. I would suggest, INIr. Chairman, we have covered tlie 
ground with this witness. 

The Chairman. Are there any questions? 

Mr. Kearney. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. McGirt. I decline to answer that question, sir, under my right 
of the first and fifth amendments of the United States Constitution. 

Mr. Kearney. In other words, you are the type of individual who 
believes in the courageous airing of the truth but not while under 
oath, is that so ? 

Mr. McGiRT. Is that a question, sir? 

Mr. Kearney. Yes; is that so? 

Mr. McGiRT. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

The Chairman. Call your next witness, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Eugene Feldman. 

Miss Laks. Is this witness excused? 

The Chairman. This witness is excused. 

(Witness excused.) 

JVIr. Arens. Mr. Feldman, will you kindly come forward? 



3590 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Kaise your ripjlit hand. Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give us will be the truth, the whole truth and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Feldman. So help me God. 

TESTIMONY OF EUGENE EEIDMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
RHODA LAKS AND JAMES D. GILLILAND 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Feldman. My name is Eugene Feldman. My residence is 
33 West End Boulevard, Winston-Salem. ]\Iy occupation is sales 
clerk in a meat market. 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena which 
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi- 
ties? 

Mr. Feldman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Feldman. I am. 

Mr. Arens. And will counsel kindly identify themselves for the 
record ? 

Miss Laks. Rhoda Laks, 615 Columbus Avenue, New York City. 

Mr. Gilliland. James D. Gilliland, Warrenton, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Feldman, have you ever met socially, the lady 
counsel who represents you ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. No, sir, I have not. 

Mr. Arens. When did you first meet Miss Laks ? 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I met her Sunday, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Was the meeting at your solicitation or hers ? 

(Witness consults his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I personally retained Miss Laks. 

Mr. Arens. How did you know there was such a person ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I am ready to answer your question, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly do so. 

Mr. Feldman. She was introduced to me by a friend. 

Mr. Arens. Who was the friend who introduced you to her ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer under the first and fifth amend- 
ments to the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Wliy ? 

Mr. Feldman. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee who introduced you to your lady counsel, you would be supply- 
ing information which could be used against you in a criminal pro- 
ceeding? 

Mr. Feldman. Same answer, sir. 

Mr, Arens. Did I understand you to say it was a friend who intro- 
duced you ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. That is right. That is what I said. 

Mr. Arens. You are not ashamed of that friend, are you ? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3591 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer under the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Arens. Please tell this committee a little about your past life. 
Wliere and when were you born ? 

Mr. Feldman. I was born, sir, in Sheboygan, Wis., Sheboygan 
County. The date, sir, was September 14, 1914. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, please, a brief resume of your educational back- 
ground ? 

Mr. Feldman. I attended first grade in a community known as 
Greenleaf , Wis. I attended the rest of my elementary education in a 
city called Manitowoc, Wis. I attended and graduated from the 
Manitowoc Lincoln High School. I am a graduate of the University 
of Wisconsin. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly give us the date you graduated from the Uni- 
versity of Wisconsin. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr, Feldman. As best as I recall, sir, January 1949. 

Mr. Arens. What degree did you receive? 

Mr. Feldman. Bachelor of arts. 

Mr. Arens. Did that complete your formal education ? 

Mr. Feldman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you received any other educational training since 
then ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer under the first and fifth amend- 
ments of the United States Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Would you tell us why you decline to relate any further 
pursuit of knowledge in which you engaged since completion of your 
formal education at the University of Wisconsin ? 

Mr. Feldman. The same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Please give us a resume in comparable fashion of 
the employment in which you have engaged since completion of your 
formal education at the University of Wisconsin in 1949. 

(Witness consulted with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. May I ask you, Mr. Feldman, why it is you have 
to have a person whom you have only known for about 48 hours, tell 
you where you have been working the last 10 years? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Now, please tell us where you got your first job after 
you graduated from the University of Wisconsin in 1949. 

Mr. Feldman. I believe the question that you asked previously 
went unanswered, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Answer this one. Where did you first work after you 
completed your education in 1949, at the University of Wisconsin? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that under the first and fifth 
amendments to the United States Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about your second job. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. According to my best recollection, sir, my work be- 
gan in August 1950, with the firm known as the Coast to Coast Realty 
Co. in Greensboro. 

Mr. Arens. That was your second job ? 



3592 INVESTIGATION OF COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES 

INIr. Feldman, As far as my best recollection goes. 

Mr. Arens. The first job is the one you are not going to tell us about, 
is that correct? 

Mr. Feldman. I already have answered that question, sir. 

Mv. Arens. Answer it again. 

Mr. Feldman. I decline. 

Mr. Arens. We are not playing a game here. We want to know 
whether or not you can tell us about your first job or whether or not 
to do so would supply information which could be used against you in a 
criminal proceeding. 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that under the first and fifth 

amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Your second job began in August 1950. Let us have 
the name of the establishment again, please, sir. 

Mr. Feldman. ('oast to Coast Realty Co., Greensboro, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. How did you happen to come down to Greensboro, 
N.C., for that job? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I was looking for employment and that is where I 
got employment. 

Mr. Arens. That is not a completely truthful answer and you know 
it. Tell us how you happened to be down in North Carolina. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I repeat, sir, that was the place where I was looking 
for work. I looked for work. 

Mr. Arens. How did you happen to be down in the Southland look- 
ing for work when you graduated from the University of Wisconsin ? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer under the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Arens. The truth is that you were in the Southland engaged 
in Communist Party organizational and publicity activities, is that 
not a fact ? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer under the first and fifth amend- 
ments, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Oliver Kenneth 
Goff? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer under the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Arens. Kenneth Goff identified you as a person known by 
him to be a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was he lying oi 
telling the truth ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel. ) 

Mr. Feldman. The same answer, sir. 

Ml". Arens. How long were you in the employ of the Coast to Coast 
Realty Co.? 

INIr. Feldman. A few months, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Beginning in August 1950 ? 

Mv. Feldman. Yes, sir ; to the best of my recollection. 

Mr. Arens. Does that title. Coast to Coast, connote that the em- 
ployees were to go coast to coast in pursuit of their work ? 

(Witness considted his counsel.) 

Mv. Feldman. 1 don't know what the title means, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do for the Coast to Coast Realty Co. ? 

Mr. Feldman. I typed, sir. I was a typist. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3593 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any other employment while you were 
with the Coast to Coast Realty Co. ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel. ) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first 
and fifth amendments to the Constitution of the United States. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any other income beside the income 
from the Coast to Coast Realty Co. ? 

Mr. Feldmax, The same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Let us pick up your employn:ient from there. You were 
with the Coast to Coast Realty Co. doing some typing for a few 
months. AYhat was your next employment ? 

( Witness consulted his counsel. ) 

Mr. Feldmax. I worked for the American Insurance Co. as a mail 
clerk, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. When did that employment begin ? 

Mr. Feldmax. To the best of my knowledge, sir, that began in 
Fel)ruary 1951. 

Mr. Arens. You worked as a mail clerk ? 

Mr. Feldmax. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. Did you have any other employment while you were 
a mail clerk in February 1951 ? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that under the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr, Arexs. Did you have any other income? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldmax. Same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. How long did you work as a mail clerk ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. Several months sir, to the best of my recollection. 

Mr. Arens. Let us proceed to your next employment, please. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. To the best of my recollection I worked for a firm 
in Winston-Salem known as Butler Enterprises. 

Mr. Arens. When did that begin? Was that still within 1951? 

]\Ir. Feij^imax'. It may have been, sir. I don't remember exactly. 

Mr. Arens. What was Butler Enterprises? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Ml-. Feldman. It is a firm that deals with furniture and hotel and 
motel supplies. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do at Butler Enterprises? 

Mr. Feldman. I was a secretary, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What other employment did you have while you were 
employed at Butler Enterprises? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments to tlie Constitution of the United States. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any income other than the income derived 
from your employment at Butler Enterprises ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

INIr. Feij)Man. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Please continue in the chronology of your employment. 
"Wliat was your next job ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 



3594 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Feldman. I was a stock clerk at Kress Co., in Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. When did that employment begin ? 

Mr. Feldman. To the best of my recollection it began in the spring 
of 1953. 

Mr. Arens. Were you employed at Butler Enterprises until the 
spring of 1953? 

Mr. Feldman. To the best of my recollection, I was. 

Mr. Ajrens. What was your particular job at the Kress Co.? 

Mr. Feijdman. I was stock clerk there, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any other employment while you were the 
stock clerk there in 1953 ? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that on the basis of the first and 
fifth amendments to the Constitution of the United States. 

Mr, Arens. How long did you have tliis employment? The stock 
clerk employment, not the employment you can't tell us about. 

Mr. Feldman. The same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Perhaps you misunderstood me. How long did you 
have the last employment you mentioned as a stock clerk, the above- 
ground activity, is what I am asking about now. 

Mr. Feldman. 1 was employed as a stock clerk for several months, 
sir. 

Mr. Arens. In 1953 ? 

Mr. Feldman. To the best of my knowledge ; yes. 

Mr. Arens. AVhat was your next job, where and when? 

Mr. Feldman. I worked for a firm known as Better Homes Furni- 
ture Co. in Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. When did that employment begin ? 

Mr. Feldman. In the summer of 1953. 

Mr. Arens. During that time did you have any other employment ? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer on the basis of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. What was your next employment? 

Mr. Feldman. I worked for Winston Jewelry & Loan Co., in Win- 
ston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. And when did that employment commence? 

Mr. Feldman. To the best of my knowledge, it began in the fall of 
1953. 

Mr. Arens. During the period of time you were employed by this 
jewelry and loan company in Winston-Salem did you have any other 
employment? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer on the basis of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any other income ? 

Mr., Feldman. I decline to answer on the basis of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. How long did your employment last at the jewelry and 
loan company ? 

Mr. Feldman. Until the spring of last year, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Until the spring of 1955. Then pick it up there, please, 
sir, and tell us your other employment. 

Mr. Feldman. I worked for the Purity Market in Winston-Salem 
as a salesclerk. 

Mr. Arens. During the time you were employed at the Purity Mar- 
ket did you have other employment? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3595 

Mr. P'eluman. 1 decline to ansvrer on the basis of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. How lon^^ were you employed at the Purity Market ? 

Mr. Feldman. I am still employed there. 

Mr. AiJENs. Do yon presently have any other employment ? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer on the basis of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Were these various employments over the period of 
the last few years which you have recounted to this committee pro- 
cured or secured by you at the direction of any person known by you 
to be a member of the Communist conspiracy? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that question on the basis of 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arexs. These employments, I put it to you as a fact, have 
only been ''cover*' employments for your Communist Party activities. 
Am I misrepresenting the fact or am I telling the truth when I Ulege 
Ihat^ 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arexs. What has been your a.ctivity in Tennessee? Have 
you been over there ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feld.man. 1 decline to answer that on the basis of the first and 
fifth amendments to the Constitution. 

Mr. Aj{exs. When was the last time you were out.side of this State 
of Nortli Carolina? 

(Witness considted his coiuisel.) 

Mr. P^xdmax. In the last part of June I made a trip to Atlanta., 
Ga., to visit my mother and mj' sister. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about any other trips you made outside 
of this State in the last couple of years? 

(Witness consulted liis counsel.) 

]\Ir. Feldmax. 1 decline on the basis of the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

The CiiAiRMAx. Just a minute. With what crime do you think 
you might l)e charged for testifying as to the trips you made outside 
of North (Carolina? 

Mr. Feldman. I give you the same answer, sir. 

The Chairman. I am wondering if counsel has read the rules of 
this committee. I call your attention to rule 7 (b) : 

ThP pnrtif'ip;ition of counsel dnring tlie course of any liearins aiul while the 
witness is testifying shall he limited to advising said witness as to his legal 
lights. 

No witness has a legal right to be in contempt of this committer 
and the witness is in contempt of this committee when he refuses 
lo answei- a question as to leaving this State. Proceed, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been an author in the course of your career? 

(Witness consulted liis counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that on the basis of t!.e Hrst 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arexs. 1 do not mean writing letters to your mother. 1 mean 
have yon been the author of any publications. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

7514(>— 56 7 



3596 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. I merely want to be sure you understand the question. 

Mr. Feldman. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact, that you have been a contributor to the Communist New 
Masses. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer on the basis of the first and fifth 
amendments to the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. You are not ashamed of your journalistic attainments, 
are you ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact, that you are also a contributor to the Communist Daily 
Peoples World. 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that on the basis of the first 
and fifth amendments to the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, -and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact, that you have likewise been a contributor of a series of articles 
to the Communist Daily Worker. 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that on the basis of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. What is the Communist Daily Worker. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I offer the same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever used -any name other than the name pur- 
suant to which you are appearing today — Eugene Feldman? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer on the basis of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact ; that in Memphis, Tenn., you were director of agitation and 
propaganda for the (Communist Party in 1950. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. First I decline to answer based on the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. You held the same position in Alabama for a while, 
did you not? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer on the basis of the first and fifth 
amendments to the Constitution of the United States. 

Mr, Arens. You were identified with the Young Farmer-Labor 
League at Manitowoc, Wis., were you not? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer on the basis of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, the Young Farmer-Labor League as far 
as I know — I believe the investigator can confirm it — has not been 
cited. 

The Chairman. Furthermore, it must have been so far back tliat 
the statute of limitations has long since run on it. So with what 
crime would you be charged if you answered that question? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

The Chairman. We will adjourn at this time to meet at 2 o'clock, 
and that will give you plenty of time. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3597 

(Present at the time of taking the recess were Representatives 
Walter, Willis, and Kearney.) 

(Thereupon at 12 noon, Tuesday, March 13, 1956, a recess was taken 
until 2 p. m. the same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION— TUESDAY, MARCH 13, 1956 

(Present at the afternoon session were Representatives Walter, 
Willis, and Kearney.) 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I believe at the conclusion of the morn- 
ing session we had a question outstanding with reference to the wit- 
ness' identification with the Young Farmer-Ivubor League, in Wiscon- 
sin, and the witness, I believe, over the lunch hour, was going to 
meditate over that and see if he could answer it for us. 

TESTIMONY OF EUGENE FELDMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
EHODA LAKS AND JAMES D. GILLILAND— Resumed 

Mr. Feldman. Would you repeat the question, please ? 

Mr. Arens. The question is. Have you ever been identified with the 
Young Farmer-Labor League, of Wisconsin. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. Sir, I am the best judge as to what this question 
means and calls for, and I invoke the first amendment and the fifth 
amendment to the Constitution of the United States. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee whether or not you have ever been identified with the Young 
Farmer-Labor league, in Wisconsin, you would be supplying infor- 
mation which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

(Witness consulted his counsel. ) 

Mr. Feldman. I give the same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly look over your right shoulder and see 
if you recognize the gentleman seated against the wall who is wearing 
eye glasses ? 

(Witness looking.) 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to answer the question, sir. jVIy refusal is 
based on the first and fifth amendments to the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. That man is Mr. Charles Childs, who testified before 
this committee yesterday to the effect that while he was a member of 
the Communist Party, supplying information to the Federal Burea.u 
of Investigation, he knew you as a comrade in the Communist Party 
and that you had been assigned to engage in youth and church 
activities in North Carolina at the behest of the Communist con- 
spiracy. Was Mr. Childs lying or was he telling the truth ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel. ) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer. My declination is based on the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about your church activities in the course of the 
last several years in Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to answer your question. My refusal is 
based on the first amendment which grants Americans liberty of 
religion, and the fifth amendment. 



3598 nsrv^ESTiGATioN of communist activities 

Mr. Arens. Surely you are not ashamed to tell a committee of the 
Congress, which is seeking to develop security information to protect 
the Avelfare of this Nation, whether or not you have been engaged 
in church activities ; are you ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldmax. Sir, my answer is this: Under the first amendment 
to the Constitution no one has the right to inquire concerning my 
religious activities. I base my refusal therefore on the first amend- 
ment and the fifth. 

The Chairmax. Let us get this straight. Do I understand you to 
mean that if you discussed activities in a church, you might be sub- 
ject to criminal pi'osecution ? 

(AYitness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Let us not talk then about religious activities, to use your 
terminology. Let us talk about activities of yours in churches or in 
religious groups, not religious activities. 

Mr. Feldman. I feel that that question violates my freedom of re- 
ligion, and I decline to answer it on the basis of the first amendment, 
which grants me freedom of religion, and the fifth amendment. 

^fr. Arens. Have you been active in the churches in North Carolina ? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that, sir, on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee of the Congress the truth respecting your activities, if any, in 
churches in this community, you would be supplying information 
whicli could be used against you in a criminal porceeding? 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer and my refusal is based on the 
first amendment and the fifth. 

Mr. Arens. Were you present when Mr. Charles Childs was ini- 
tiated in the Communist Party 'I 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. You helped induct him in the Connnunist Party ; did 
you not ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I otl'er the same answer. 

Mr. Arens. You did not know when you inducted him into the Com- 
munist Party that you were inducting into the Communist Party an 
FBI agent ; did you 'i 

Mr. Feldman. I offer the same answer. 

Mr. Arens. To that extent the committee is in your debt for induct- 
ing into the Communist Party an FBI agent. 

Can you tell us about nonsensitive organizations with which you 
may be or have been affiliated in this State and, by nonsensitive organi- 
zations, 1 mean organizations which are not (\uinnuiii<t or Commu- 
nist dominated or controlled. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Air. Feldman. Would you be more specific. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us the organizations of any kind, character, or 
descri])ti()n that you have been alliliated with which are not Connnu- 
nist, not Connnunist fronts, not penetrated by (\)nununists with per- 
haps the excej)tion of yourself? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3599 

Mr. Feldman. I decline to answer that and my refusal is based on 
the first amendment and the fifth. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be 
ordered and directed to ansAver that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question, 

(Witness consulted his counsel,) 

Mr. Feldman. My answer is this. I don't know what the counsel 
has in mind in regard to what are or are not Coimnunists organiza- 
tions. Therefore, I invoke the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Akens. Have you been a member of any organizations which, 
to your knowledge, were not Communist controlled or dominated ^ 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldmax. 1 refuse to answer that question, and my refusal is 
based on the first amendment and the fifth. 

Mr, Akexs. The truth is, is it not, that you have been under in- 
structions from the Communist conspiracy to penetrate non-Connnu- 
nist organizations ? 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to answer that, and my refusal is based on 
the first amendment to the Constitution and the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us to what labor organizations you have belonged? 

Mr. Feldman. 1 refuse to answer your question, and my refusal is 
based on the first amendment to the Constitution and the fifth amend- 
ment to the Constitution, 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you gave a truth- 
ful answer to that question w^hile you are under oath to this conunittee 
3^ou would be supplying information which could be used against you 
in a criminal proceeding e 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I give the same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. C'hairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. Before 
you answer it, I would like to remind you that it is not criminal to 
belong to a labor organization. Answer the question. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to answer the question, and my refusal is 
based on the first amendment and the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in the armed services of this 
Nation '( 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr, Feldman. Yes, sir; I have been. 

Mr. Arens. Please give us your service record. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Ml'. Feldman. I went into the service, to the best of my recollec- 
tion, about May 1942. 

Mr. Arens. Were you drafted or did you enlist ? 

Mr. Feldman. I was drafted. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you serve ? 

Mr. Feld^ian. I served, I believe, about 31/^ years, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Where, and in what branch of the service did you 
serve ? 

Mr. Feldman. I served in the States and overseas, in the South 
Pacific, and I was in, I believe, what was known then as the Air Corps. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity in the Air Corps did j'ou serve? 



3600 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Feldman. I was a radio operator on ground. 

Mr. Arens. Did you belong to a labor organization while you were 
in the armed services? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. My answer is this : Although T feel that that violates 
my right under the first amendment, I will make this answer, that I 
did not belong to any labor organization while I was in the service. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have a commission at any time while in the 
service ? 

(Witness consulted his coimsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to make that answer on the basis of the first 
amendment and the fifth. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have a commission at any time while you 
were in the service? 

Mr. Feldman. I was an enlisted man all through my military 
career. 

Mr. Arens. ^Vliat messages did you transmit as a radio operator? 
"VAHiat was the nature of the messages ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. My job was to keep in touch with cargo aircraft as 
it was making its way from one point to another. 

Mr. Arens. What points? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. To the best of my recollection from New Zealand to 
New Caledonia, from New Caledonia to Australia, from New Heb- 
rides Islands to the Solomon Islands, from the New Hebrides Islands 
to several different islands about, wnthin probably a radius of a 
thousand or 2,000 miles, or sometliing like that. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your activities as a radio operator 
in the United States armed services, did you transmit to any person 
not authorized to receive tlie same confidential or restricted informa- 
tion? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman, My answer is that I have never done anything against 
the security of my country, the United States, but I refuse to make 
answer to the question, and my refusal is based on the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever transmitted any information which came 
into your possession in the course of your duties as a radio operator to a 
person not authorized by law to receive the same? 

Mr. Feldman. I oft'er the same answer. 

Mr. Arens. What is that answer? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldinian. I have never done anything against the allegiance to 
the United States, and I refuse to make answer to the question and my 
refusal is based on the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I am glad to have that observation that you have never 
done anything against the allegiance to the United States. Have you 
ever been a part and parcel of a foreign-controlled conspiracy designed 
to overthrow the Government of the United States by force and 
A'iolonce? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3601 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to make answer to that question and my 
refusal is based on the first amendment and the fifth amendment to our 
Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline when you 
were a radio operator? 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to make answer to that question and my 
refusal is based on the first amendment to the Constitution and the 
fifth amendment to the Constitution. 

Mr. Kearney. If you were not under Communist Party discipline at 
the time you were a radio operator, would you so state to the com- 
mittee? 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to answer that question and my refusal is 
based on the first amendment and the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taken an oath of allegiance to this 
Nation? 

Mr. Feluman. I took an oath when I was inducted in the Armed 
Forces. 

Mr. Arens. Do you recall the nature of that oath? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. It is an oath of allegiance to my country the same as 
everyone else in the Armed Forces took. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any mental reservations when you took 
that oath? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to make answer to that question and my 
refusal is based on the first and fifth amendments to the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you would tell this 
committee whether or not j^ou raised your hand before Almighty God 
and in good faith took an oath of allegiance to this Nation under whose 
flag you have protection, you would be supplying information which 
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to answer the question and my refusal is 
based on the first amendment to the Constitution and the fifth amend- 
ment. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be 
ordered and directed to answer that last principal question. 

The Chairman. Yes ; you are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Feldman. My answer is the same. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat is colonization, do you know ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I don't understand the question. 

Mr. Arens. Has that term had any significance in any of your 
extracurricular activities in this area in the course of the last several 
years ? 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to answer the question, and my refusal is 
based on the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. If you did not know what I was talking about when 
I mentioned colonization, why is it that you duck behind the fifth 
amendment ? 

Mr. Feldman. My answer is the same. I refuse to answer based 
on the first and fifth amendments. 



3602 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. The truth is, is it not, that you have been active on 
behalf of the Communist conspiracy in colonization in industry or 
industrial establishments in this State? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to make answer, and my refusal is based 
on the first and fifth amendments to the Constitution of the United 
States. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently a member of the Communist con- 
spiracy ? 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to answer that and my refusal is based on the 
first amendment and the fifth amendment to the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Do you propose, when you are released from subpena 
by the chairman of this committee and the pains and penalties of per- 
jury no longer apply to you, to step out in the street like your counsel 
did yesterday, and say in effect, ''Of course, I am not a member of the 
Communist conspiracy, I never have been, but I am not going to tell 
that witch-hunting committee Avhicli is trying to destroy the Consti- 
tution whether or not I have been a member of the Communist con- 
spiracy." Do you propose to take that course of action or one 
very similar to it when you are released by the committee from your 
oath ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to make answer to that question, sir, and my 
refusal is based on the first amendment of the Constitution and the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, that would conclude, if you please, sir, 
the interi'ogation by the staff of this witness. 

Mr. Willis. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make this observa- 
tion. The last three witnesses who have appeared before us all pos- 
sessed university degrees, B. A.'s, Ph. D.'s and so on. Yet what is 
their occupation or their ostensible occupation? One said he was a 
sheet metalworker. The other one a fish scaler, and the present wit- 
ness a meat clerk. Is that what they went to college for? 

The witness has refused, by invoking the privilege of the fifth 
amendment, to tell us whether, while engaged as a meat clerk, he is 
receiving income or sources of income from other entities. I think, 
Mr. Chairman, the conclusion is inescapable that these people are 
professional agitators, expert emissaries of the Communist con- 
spiracy, planted in the Southland. Who said it couldn't happen here? 

The Chairman. General Kearney ( 

Mr. Kearney. I understand, Mr. Feldman, that you ai'e a graduate 
of the University of Wisconsin ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. Yes. sir ; that is correct. 

Mr. Kearney. And you consider yourself a loyal American? 

Mr. Feldman. Yes, sir ; I do. 

Mr. Kearney. As such, if you have any information at all which 
you could give to this committee concei'uing any organization which 
had oi" lias for its objective the ovei-throAv of our Govermnent by force 
or violence, would you give it to this committee ^ 

(AVitness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I must decline to answer that question, and my 
refusal is based on the first amendment and the fifth. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3603 

Mr. Kearney. You just auswered that you are a loyal American. 

Mr. Feldman. I say that again. 

Mr. Kearney. For your type of ]oysi\ American, IVfr. Feldman, let 
me say to you in all sincerity that I only have the utmost contempt. 

(Applause from the audience.) 

The Chairman. That is a violation of the rules of this committee 
and any further demonstrations of that sort will result in our being 
compelled to clear the hearing room. 

Mr. Feldman, do you know John V. Myers ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I must decline to answer that question, and my 
refusal is based on the first and fifth amendments to the Constitution. 

The Chairman. In other words, you feel if you admitted that you 
knew John V. Mvers you might subject vourself to criminal prosecu- 
tion ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Feldman. I refuse to make answer to that question, and my 
refusal is based on the grounds of the first amendment and the 
fifth. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused from further attendance 
under the subpena. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Call your next witness, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. William Binkley. 

The Chairman. I think Mr. Binkley has been sworn. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM G. BINKLEY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
EHODA LAKS AND JAMES D. GILLILAND— Resumed 

Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Binkley. My name is W. G. Binkley, residence, near Walnut 
Cove, N. C. Occupation, at present unemployed. 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today, Mr. Binkley. in response to 
a subpena which was served upon you by the ?Touse Committee on 
Un-American Activities. 

Mr. Binkley. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Binkley. I am. 

Mr. Arens. Will comisel kindly identify themselves ? 

Miss Laks. Rhoda Laks, 615 Columbus Avenue, New York City. 

Mr. Gilliland. James D. Gilliland, Warrenton, N". C. 

Mr. Arens. I take it, Mr. Binkley, you engaged counsel? 

Mr. Binkley. I did, sir. 

Mr. Arens. When did you engage counsel ? 

Mr. Binkley. I met Miss Laks Sunday, and I engaged her Sunday. 

Mr. Arens. At whose instigation did you meet Miss Laks? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Binkley. Miss Laks was introduced to me by a friend. 

Mr. Arens. Who was that friend ? 

Mr. Binkley. I must refrain from answering on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Why ? 

Mr. Binkley. Same answer. 



3604 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee who introduced you to Miss Laks you would be supplying 
information which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. Same answer, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to lay before you a photograph and ask 
if that photograph reproduces to you any scene which is familiar to 
you? 

Mr. Binklet. I am afraid I will have to refuse to answer on the 
grounds of the first and fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. That is your home, isn't it? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Are you going to deny before the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities that this is a picture of your own home ? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. The same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Where did you say you lived ? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. Walnut Cove, or near Walnut Cove. 

Mr. Arens. Do you live on a farm ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BiNKLEY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What is the appearance of the house. Is it brick, 
wood, stone, logs ? Of what is it made? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BiNKLEY. In the main I think the house would be said to be 
made of logs or wood. 

Mr. Arens. Is it a scene that looks similar to the scene portrayed 
in this photograph I just showed you? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BiNKLEY. To that picture, I must refuse to answer on the 
grounds of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, although we have used this photograph, 
which has been identified as the premises used by the Communist 
Party for a leadership training school in North Carolina in 1952, we 
have not as yet introduced it into evidence. With your permission, 
I would like to introduce it at this time as "Binkley Exhibit No. 1." 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 



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3606 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. The Binkley homestead? Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Tlie Binkley homestesid where certain sessions were held 
which we will discuss later. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Binkley, please tell us a little of your own personal 
background. "WHiere and when were you born ? 

Mr. Binkley. I was born, according to the records, in Yadkin 
County, N. C, September 16, 1895. 

Mr. Arens. Give us a word about your education, please, sir? 

Mr. Binkley. The early part of my education took place in the 
country schoolhouses, grammar school. I don't remember the names 
of them. Later I was graduated from high school. I had 2 years at 
the University of North Carolina. 

Mr. Arens. ^Mien did you complete your education at the Univer- 
sity of North Carolina? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Binkley. I just couldn't remember without the records. 

Mr. Arens. Your best recollection. 

Mr. Binkley. Prior to 1920. 

Mr. Arens. Did that complete your formal education? 

Mr. Binkley. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us chronologically of your employment since com- 
pletion of your formal education. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Air. Binkley. I could not with any reasonable certainty tell you. 

Mr. Arens. When you completed your formal education where did 
you go to work ? 

Mr. Binkley. I didn't finish the question, sir. 

]Mr. Arens. You mean the answer. Proceed. 

Mv. Binkley. The answer. I cannot tell you certainly all the 
places I worked at. Mainly on the farm for the first several years. 
Later in the forties I worked for trade unions. 

Mr. Arens. Let us start then in the forties. 

Mr. Binkley. The first trade union, to my recollection, was the 
building-trades workers. 

Mr. Arens. In wliat capacity? 

Mr. Binkley. Not the AFL, but the CIO building trades, headed 
by Mr. Lewis. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity did you work there ? 

Mr. Binkley. I did some organizational work for them over a 
])eriod of time. I don't remember how long. 

Mr. Arens. Was that off and on in the forties ? 

Mr. Binkley. It was during the earlv vears of the forties. 

Mr. Arens. Where was that ? 

Mr. Binkley. That was in Indiana. 

Mr. Arens. Who enlisted you to work as an organizer for the 
building-trades workers in Indiana? 

A[r. Binkley. I don't remember. 

Ml'. Akens. Wiiat was your next enipkninent ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Binkley. After that I came back and lived on the farm for a 
couple of years, a year or two. 

Mr. Arens. What caused your disassociation from the CIO? 

Mr. Binkley. The illness of my mother. I went back to the home- 
stead. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3607 

Mr. Ahens. Was your employment with the CIO as an organizer in 
the hnildino- ti-ades caused by any person known by you to have l)een 
a member of the Communist conspiracy? 

Mr. liiNKLEY. I nnist decline to answer that, sir, on the grounds of 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist discipline when you were 
an organizer in the building trades in Indiana ^ 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I must decline to answer that, sir, on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Ivet us go on. You quit the CIO and came back to your 
home Stated 

Mr. BiNKLEY. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. We are in the forties, I take it. 

Mr. BiNKLEY. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. What was your next employment? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. My next employment was with the furniture workers. 
That is my best recollection at the present time. 

Mr. Arens. When was that t Are we still in the forties? 

Mr. BiNKLEY, I thiidv it was the late forties or the middle forties. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. As an organizer. 

Mr. Arens. Who was liead of tlie union ? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. At this moment I do not remember. 

Mr. Arens. Was your em])loyment with the furniture workers 
caused by any person known by you to have been a member of the 
Communist conspiracy ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I shall have to decline to answer on the gi'ounds of 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Wei-e you a member of the (^omnnmist conspiracy and 
under Communi.st discipline wlien you were an (uganizer for the furni- 
ture workers? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. The same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Now we are in the late forties, and you are an organizer 
for the furniture workers. How long did that employment last, 
please, sir? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. Approximately 1 year, as I recollect it now. 

Mr. Arens. Who was tlie international president of the furniture 
workers when you were with it? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I am sorry, I don't remember. I could not answer 
that. 

Mr. Arens. Let us have you next employment, please, sir. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr, BiNKLEY. I think, sir, to the best of my recollection, I came 
back to the farm and stayed a year after that. 

Mr. Arens. Does that take us into the early fifties? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. Approximately. 

Mr. Arens. Let us take your next employment. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I M'ill have to decline to answer on tlie grounds of 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. As of what period? Let us be sure we understand 
each other. 

Mr. BiNKLEY. After the time stated. 

jNli'. Arens. What time stated? 



3608 INVESTIGATION OF COMIVItJNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. BiNKLEY. After I came back from the furniture workers and 
worked a year on the farm. 

Mr. Arens. What year was it that you conckided your year's 
service on the farm ? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. Approximately the early fifties. 

Mr. Arens. "What was your next employment? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. After we get in and out of this dark era, when was 
your next employment ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I think, sir, that is the same question and I must 
decline to answer it on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Are you unable or do you refuse to answer questions 
respecting any employment by yourself from 1950 on ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Is there any employment in which you have been en- 
gaged since 1950 of the nonsensitive variety? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I must decline, with the same answer. 

Mr. Arens. What is your present employment ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BiNKLEY. At present I am unemployed. 

Mr. Arens. "Wlien were you last employed ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I must decline to answer that, sir, on the grounds 
of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the United Electri- 
cal Workers? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I must decline, with the same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Didn't you omit a little employment Avhen you were 
hastily covering your early life in 1934 that you forgot to tell us about ? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I must decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you working in 1934 ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I think I will have to decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. You don't have to decline. Do you decline to answer it 
because you fear you would be supplying information which could be 
used against you in a criminal proceeding ? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I decline to answer on the gi'ounds stated. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Tell the witness where he was working. That 
might refresh his recollection. 

Mr. Arens. Were you working in Louisiana ? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of the Com- 
munist Daily Worker for December 7, 1934, containing an article ap- 
pearing in double headline, "Denver Goes Over the Top Though Sec- 
tions Lag in 'Daily' Fund Drive." I would like to quote you an ex- 
cerpt from this article to see if that refreshes your recollection : 

Declaring that Louisiana must not fail in contributing its share to the drive, 
W. G. Binkley, Communist Party organizer of the district, has called upon 
"every section, every unit, every party member to feel the responsibility to get 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3609 

behind the daily with full steam. The task of raising funds," the district or- 
ganizer stated, "must become a part of our daily work. Collect nickels and 
dimes and arrange affairs ; ask sympathizers for donations." 

Rush all funds to the Daily Worker now ! The money still needed to complete 
the drive must be raised by December 15. 

Will you take a look at that article for us, Mr. Binkley, and see if it 
refreshes your recollection as to what you might have been doing in 
1934? 

[Witness looking at article referred to.] 

Mr. Arens. Does the article refresh your recollection ? 

Mr. Binkley. I must decline to answer on the grounds of the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. This was during a period you told us you were helping 
your father on the farm. 

[Witness consulted his counsel.] 

Mr. Binkley. I decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. Did your father ever have a farm in Louisiana ? 

Mr. Binkley. I decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. Back in 1930, you were a candidate for the Congress, 
weren't you ? 

Mr. Binkley. I decline to answer that, same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a candidate for the Congress while you were 
plowing the fields for your father on the farm in 1930 ? 

Mr. Binkley. I must decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Binkley, I lay before you a photostatic copy of the 
Communist Daily Worker of Tuesday, October 7, 1930, in which 
appears an article stating, among otlier things, that a W. G. Binkley 
is a candidate for Congress on the Communist Party ticket. Look at 
that article for us, please, sir, and see if that refreshes your recollection. 

[Witness looking at article referred to.] 

Mr. Arens. Does it help j^our recollection any ? 

Mr. Binkley. I shall decline to answer that, on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. While you were working on that farm with your 
father in the early thirties, somehow you got to be quite a big shot 
in the Communist Party, didn't you? I lay before you now a photo- 
static copy of a letter from Earl Browder, general secretary of the 
Communist Party, United States of America, addressed to the House 
Committee on Un-American Activities during the late thirties, with 
which he transmits the list of members of the National Committee of 
the Communist Party, United States of America, who were elected at 
the 10th annual convention. I observe here the name W. G. Binkley, 
which we have underlined to assist you in finding it. Will you look 
over that document and see if it refreshes your recollection as to 
your em}3loyment while you were plowing in the cornfields on your 
father's farm ? 

(Witness looking at the document mentioned.) 

Mr. Arens. Does that refresh your recollection ? 

]\Ir. Binkley. I must decline to answer on the grounds of the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Binkley, while you were working on your father's 
f arm, did you have occasion to be engaged in a little extracurricular 
activity down in New Orleans in the early thirties? 

Mr. Binkley. I must decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. I should say in the late thirties. 



3610 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. BiNKLEY. On tlie orounds stated. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in jail? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I must decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. Were you in jail in Louisiana in New Orleans in 1986? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I am declining to answer that on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. I wiMit to lay before you now a photostatic copy of an 
article appearing in the Communist Daily Worker of October 13, 1936. 
entitled, ''Binkley, Danna, Fined, Jailed in Xew Orleans.'' The 
article reads on : 

W. G. Binkley, district organizer of the Communist Party, and Clifford Danna, 
an innocent bystander, were each sentenced to 25 days in jail and lined $25 on the 
charge of being dangerous and suspicious characters. 

Let me lay that article before you to see if it mioht refresh your 
recollection as to what you were doing on the side while you were 
plowing corn for your father on his farm. 

(Witness looking at article.) 

Mr. Arens. Does that refresh your recollection as to any 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I shall refuse to answer under the terms of the first 
and fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Back in the thirties while you were working on your 
father's farm, were you also active in the Trade Union Unity League? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I shall decline to answer that for the reasons given. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to lay before you a photostatic copy of the 
Daily Workers of February 15, 1930 containing an article entitled 
■"■Form Jobless Council in North Carolina. Many Negro Workers at 
Meeting," date line Winston-Salem, N. C. Among other things the 
article says that W. G. Binkley, local TUUL secretary, was chair- 
man of the meeting. Does that article help to refresh your recol- 
lection as to any activity in which you were engaged while you were 
plowing on your father's farm ? 

(Witness looking at article.) 

Mr. Binklp:y. I nuist decline to answer that on the groinids of the 
first and fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that each of these 
documents just exhibited to the witness be incorporated by reference 
in this record for retention in the files of the connnittee, but that 
specifically the citations of the Trade Union Unity League by the 
then Attorney General, by the Special Committee on U^n-American 
Activities, by the (\\lifornia (^ommittee on I^n- American Activities, 
and by the Massachusetts House Connnittee on Un-American Activi- 
ties, be incorporated in this record. 

The Chairman. W^ithout objection, it is so ordered. 

(The citations are as follows:) 

TRADE-UNION UNITY LEAGUE 

1. "In IJ)21» the Trade-Union Educational L"eague became the Trade-Union Unity 
League * * * The TUUL, as it was called, openly supported and was 
dominated by the Coinnuuiist Tarty.'' 

(Attornvi) General Francifs BUUUe, in re Harry Bridges, May 28, 
Ji)J,2, p. 10.) 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3611 

2. Cited as a Communist front directly controlled by the Communist Party. It 

was headed by William Z. Foster, national chairman of the Communist 
Party, U. S. A. ; was composed of some 20 Communist unions and was 
affiliated with the Red International of Labor Unions of Moscow. 

(Special Committee on Un-American Aetirities, Reports, March 29, 

lO.'f-'i, pp. 9-'f and 12-i; also cited in Reports January 3, 1939, p. 63, 

and JaruKiry 3, 1940, pp. 8 and 9.) 

3. "When the Communist Party was organized formally in 1919, it denounced 

the A. F. of L. as 'reactionary' and proclaimed that U. S. Communists 
would lead the way to "revolutionary industrial unionism.' The Trade- 
Union Unity League was launched and attempted to create blatantly 
Communist-sponsored and controlled trade unions ; * * * After a long 
record of failure, the Communist Party abandoned the Trade-Union Unity 
League and returned to the pre-Communist Party program of the radical 
ox'ganizations. Every attempt was made to infiltrate and dominate the 
A. F. of L." 

{California Committee on Un-American Activities, Reports 191/8, 
p. 36.) 

4. "The federation of the Communist Party's own labor unions * * * The 

Comintern ordered American Communists to create their own unions, 
particularly among l)asic industries. Thus arose the Trade-Union Unity 
I>'eague Unions (TUUL). * * * In 193r> the ('(nununiists were ordered 
to disband the TUUL unions and actively to penetrate the corresponding 
unions of the American Federal of Labor." 

(Ma-^aaehuHetts Ifoiise Committee on Un-American Activities, Report, 
1938, pp. 121 and 306. ) 

Mr. Akkxs. Somewhere aloiifr the line in your career yoii became a 
lawyer, did you not, Mr. Binkley ^ 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BixKLEY. "Would you read the question again? 

Mr. Arens. Are you a lawyer ( Have you been admitted to the bar t 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I was in 1922 or 192:^. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently admitted to practice in North 
Carolina? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Binkley. To the best of my knowledge I haven't practiced law 
since 1926 or thereabouts. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to invite your attention, Mr. Binkley, to a 
rather current article appearing in the Greensboro Daily News, which 
(juotes you. It is headlined, "Farmer Binkley Denies All." Among 
other things, it says, quoting you : 

I was under the impulse yesterday of writing a letter t<t the pai>er and denying 
it, and then I thought, well, never mind. 

That is with reference to certain testimony which was given by 
witnesses under oath identifying 3^011 as part of the Communist con- 
spiracy. 

Did you as Farmer Binkley deny it all to the newspaper, the Greens- 
boro Daily New^s? 

Mr. Binkley. I must refuse to answer that imder the grounds of 
the lirst and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. You are under oath before this committee. TNHiy don't 
you deny it all to this committee as to whether or not yoti have been 
in the (^omnumist cons])iracy? 

Mr. Binkley. I shall have to refuse to answer that for the same 
reason. 



75146—56 8 



3612 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr, Arens. Do you as Farmer Binkley, propose after your release 
from this subpena, to step out in the hall or issue some statement either 
by yourself or through your counsel saying in effect, "Of course I am 
not a member of the Communist conspiracy. I deny it all. I just 
didn't get around to saying it in this paper. I thought 'Well, never 
mind.' " Do you propose that course of action, Mr. Binkley ? 

Mr. Binkley. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Did you take a hand in behalf of the 12 Communist 
traitors who were convicted in New York City in 1949 ? 

Mr. Binkley. I will have to refuse to answer that on the grounds of 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Is it true you did sign a statement in behalf of the 12 
Communist traitors in New York City ? 

Mr. Binkley. I am refusing to answer that on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Binkley, look over your right shoulder. Do you 
see the gentleman against the wall, third from the end? Have you 
ever seen him before ? 

(Witness looks as directed.) 

Mr. Binkley. I shall refuse to answer that on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. That is Mr. Childs, Mr. Binkley. He testified under 
oath before this committee that he knew you as a member of the Com- 
munist conspiracy when he was an undercover agent for the FBI. 
Was he lying or telling the truth ? 

Mr. Binkley. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Childs ? 

Mr. Binkley. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Who was Mother Bloor? 

Mr. Binkley. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Was she one of the darlings of the Communist con- 
spiracy until she passed away a year or so ago ? 

Mr. Binkley. I shall refuse to answer that under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens, You have sent greetings to her, have you not? 

Mr. Binkley. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the International 
Labor Defense ? 

Mr. Binkley. I shall have to refuse to answer that on the grounds 
of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact, that you were attorney for tlie International Labor Defense, 
which has been repeatedly cited hj the agencies of this Government 
as one arm of the Communist conspiracy. 

Mr. Binkley. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the first 
and first amendments. 

Mr, Arens, I rosi:)ectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, tliat the record 
at this point include the citations of the International Labor De- 
fense. 

The Chairman. Yes. 



INVESTIGATION OF COJMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3613 

(Citations follow:) 

INTERNATIONAL LABOK DEFENSE 

1. Cited as subversive and Communist. (Attorney General Tom Clark, letters 
to Loyalty Review Board, released June 1, 1948, and September 21, 1948.) 

2. "Legal arm of the Communist Party." (Attorney General Francis Biddle, 
Congressional Record, September 24, 1942, p. 7686.) 

3. "It is, essentially, the legal defense arm of the Communist Party of the 
United States." It is the American section of M. O. P. R., or Red International 
of Labor Defense, often referred to as the Red International Aid. Its interna- 
tional congresses meet in Moscovr. (Special Committee on Un-American Activi- 
ties, Reports, January 3, 1939, pp. 75-78; also cited in Reports, January 3, 1940, 
p. 9 ; June 25, 1942, p. 19 ; March 29, 1944, p. 69.) 

4. "The International Labor Defense * * * was part of an international network 
of organizations for the defense of Communist lawbreakers." At a conference 
held in Detroit, Mich., April 27-28, 1946, the International Labor Defense and 
the National Federation for Constitutional Liberties merged to form the new 
front, Civil Rights Congress. (Congressional Committee on Un-Ajuerican Ac- 
tivities, Report No. 1115, September 2, 1947, pp. 1 and 2.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Binkley, have you ever held any educational ses- 
sions in your home? 

Mr. Binkley. I shall refuse to answer that on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Childs testified here yesterday that while he was 
an undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation he and 
the other comrades met with you at your home for Communist Party 
leadership training sessions. Was Mr. Childs lying about that or 
was he telling the truth? 

Mr. BiXKLEY. The same answer — the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever served in the Armed Forces of your 
country ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

]\f r. Binkley. No, sir ; I have not. 

Mv. Arens. Are you presently a member of the Communist con- 
spiracy ? 

]\Ir. Binkley. Sir, I shall refuse to answer on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Akens, I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that would con- 
clude the interrogation of this witness. 

The CiiAiRiviAN. Are there any questions. General Kearney. 

Mr. Kearney. Yes. I understood the witness to say — correct me 
if I am wrong — that 3'ou have not practiced law since 1926. 

Mr. Binkley. I said that was to the best of my recollection. 

Mr. Kearney. Are you still a member of the bar ? 

Mr. Binkley. I wouldn't consider myself so. 

Mr. Kearney. Have you been disbarred? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Binkley. No. 

Mr. Kearney. Will you explain why you don't consider yourself 
a member of the bar? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Binkley. Because I have not been active and have not paid the 
State license tax required of attorneys. 

Mr. Kearney. In other words, then, you are not legally entitled to 
practice law because you have not paid your license fee, is that so? 

Mr. Binkley. I would consider that so. 



3614 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Keakaey. We get one truthful auswer out of you, anyway, do 
Ave not? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Kearney. How many people at any one given time can your 
home hold? 

Mr. BiNKLEY. I will have to invoke the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kearney. How many of the comrades have appeared at any 
one given time at your home for a meeting? 

Mr. Binkley. I shall have to invoke the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kearney. Were you a lecturer at those meetings? 

Mr. Binkley. Same answer. 

Mr. Kearney. I will ask you the same question I asked Mr. Feld- 
man. You also attended a great university, the University of North 
Carolina, isn't that so? 

Mr. Binkley. That is right. 

Mr. Kearney. I presume that you consider yourself a loyal 
American ? 

Mr. Binkley. I certainly do. 

Mr. Kearney. If you had any information concerning any organi- 
zation which had for its objective the overthrow of our Governmeiit 
by force and violence, would you give it to this committee? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. JiiNKLEY. I shall have to invoke the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kearney. Is that what you consider being a good loyal 
American ? 

Mr. BiNKLEY'. I still consider it so. 

Mr. Kearney. Your defhiition and my definition of a loyal Ameri- 
can are entirely different. I want to say this to you. Mr. Binkley. 
and to every witness who has taken the same attitude that 3^ou have. 
For several years I have sat on this committee. We have been in places 
all over the country. We have seen your type of witness time and time 
again. The set answer is the refusal to answer, the taking of refuge 
behind the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution that you 
and others of your ilk are seeking to overthrow, and it is nauseating.. 
Take that home with you. 

The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes. 

Miss Laks. Is this witness excused, sir ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

(Witness excused.) 

(Present at the time of taking the recess were Representatives 
Walter, Willis, and Kearney.) 

(Short recess.) 

(Pi-esent following the recess were Representatives Walter, Willis, 
and Kearney.) 

The Chairman. The connnittee will be in order. 

Call your next Avitness, Mr. Arens. 

Ml". Ahexs. Mr. (Jeorge Van (^imp, ))lease. 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand. Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
n<)tl)ing l)ur the truth, so hel]) you God? 

Ml-. Van Camp. I do. 



HSrVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3615 

TESTIMONY OP GEORGE DAVID VAN CAMP, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, RHODA LAKS AND JAMES D. GILLILAND 

Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
]3ation. 

Mr. Vax Camp. George David Van Camp. I live at H-2, Sunny- 
sides Homes, Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arexs. And your occupation ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I am a sheet-metal worker. 

Mr. Arexs. Where ? 

Mr. Vax Camp. I work at the Aluminum Awning Co. 

Mr. Arexs. Is that the same company for which Warren Williams, 
a previous witness, worked ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. It is called Aluminum Awning Co. 

Mr. Arexs. Do you know a man by the name of Warren Williams? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.^ 

Mr. Vax Camp. I won't answer that on the first and fifth amend- 
ment. 

Mr. Arexs. Is he a fellow employee at this aluminum company ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Arexs. The record may be a little confused. Let us start at 
this point. I am not going to ask you at the moment whether you know 
him. Is Warren Williams emplo3'ed at the establishment where you 
are employed? 

(Witness consulted his counsel, ) 

Mr. Vax Camp. No, sir, as far as I know there is no Warren Wil- 
liams. 

Mr. Arexs. Thank you, sir. Later we will go into whether or not 
you know him. 

Are you api)earing today in response to a subpeiui served upon you 
by the House Connnittee on Un-Ameiican Activities if 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes. 

Mr. Arexs. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Will counsel identify themselves? 

Miss Laks. Ehoda Laks, 510 Columbus Avenue, Xew York City. 

Mr. GiLLiLAXD. James D. Gilliland, Warrenton, N. C. 

Mr. Akexs. You engaged counsel, did you, Mr. Van Camp? 

Mr. Van Camp. Y^es, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. When did you iii-st meet the lady counsel to your right? 

Mr, Van Camp. The Aveekend. 

Mr. Arexs. Just this last weekend? 

Mr. Vax Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. How did you happen to meet her? 

Mr. Vax Camp. I was introduced to her. 

Mr, Arens. By whom ? 

Mr, Vax Camp, I won't answer that on the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Arens. Why? 

Mr. Van Camp, Same reason, 

Mr, Arexs. Do you mean to tell us that if you would tell the com- 
mittee truthfully who introduced you to your counsel you would be 



3616 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

giving information that could be used against you in a criminal 
proceeding ? 

Mr. Van Camp. No, sir; I won't answer that either on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Willis. Mr. Counsel, have you ever asked for the record, the 
name of the firm with which the lady is associated ? 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us for this record with what 
firm you are associated ? 

Miss Laks. I am in practice with Robert Z. Lewis at the same 
address. There is no firm name, Mr. Willis, but we are in practice 
together. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you bom ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I was born in Brooklyn, N. Y., in 1926, June 4. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, a word about your education. 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. I started school in Southern Pines of this 
State. I forget what year, but I started in the first grade. I went 
tlirough high school, the same school. I went to Duke University. 
I went to Duke University, I think, 1943. 

Mr. Willis. Wliat degree did you achieve there? 

Mr. Van Camp. I have not finished that education, sir. It was 
interrupted by an enlistment in the Navy for 2 years, and I went back 
to Duke at the end of that time and completed. 

Mr. Arens. Let us get the record straight. You went to Duke in 
1943, and went there for 2 years, is that correct ? 

Mr. Van Camp. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Let us get it correct. I am afraid the record is not 
straight. 

Mr. Van Camp. I think it was May of 1944 when I went into the 
Navy. 

Mr. Arens. When did you enroll in Duke University ? 

Mr. Van Camp. It must have been in July of 1943, the best I can 
remember. 

Mr. Arens. And then you continued your studies there at Duke 
University until you went into the Navy ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. AVhen did you go into the Navy ? 

Mr. Van Camp. That was, I think, in May of the following year. 

Mr. Arens. May of 1944. Did you enlist or were you drafted? 

Mr. Van Camp. I enlisted. I was under age. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have a commission in the Navy ? 

Mr. Van Camp. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity did you serve in the Navy ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I trained as a radio gunner in the aircrew, and 
before that was finished — I didn't complete that program — I was put 
into a program of electronic repair. I forget just what the name was. 

Wlien I finished that course — I finished the course in electronics — 
I was assigned to a ship and assigned to another ship and discharged. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do on these ships ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Fixed radio gear and radar gear. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a radio operator, too ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I didn't finish that program, I didn't finish that 
training. I can operate a radio ; yes, sir. 



INVESTIGATION OF COIMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3617 

Mr. Arens. Was your enlistment in the Navy at the instigation or 
direction of any person other than a person in your immediate family ? 

Mr, Van Camp. It was my own choice. 

Mr. Arens. Exclusively your own choice ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes. I think I had to have permission from my 
family. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do after you were discharged from the 
Navy? 

Mr. Van Camp. I went back to Duke. That was June or July of 
1946. 

Mr. Arens. From 1944 to 1946 you were in the Navy ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I was in the Navy. 

Mr. Arens. You were discharged from the Navy in 1946; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You immediately went to Duke University; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you remain at Duke University when 
you reenrolled in 1946 ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Until the summer of 1949. I am pretty sure of 
that. 

Mr. Arens. What degree did you receive ? 

Mr. Van Camp. It was an A. B. It was a preministerial degree. 
I don't know what it was called. The diploma does not say. It was 
probably religion. 

Mr. Arens. An A. B. degree in religion in 1949? 

Mr. Van Camp. I think that it was probably. It might have been 
philosophy, but it was for preministerial training. 

Mr. Arens. You proposed to go on to the seminary, I take it. 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Did you continue j-our education by going to a semi- 
nary ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What seminary did you enter? 

Mr. Van Camp. Duke Divinity School. 

Mr. Arens. When did you enter Duke Divinity School? 

Mr. Van Camp. Immediately following. I don't know exactly 
when. It was in that fall. 

Mr. Arens. 1949? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. In passing, is Duke Divinity operated by the Metho- 
dist denomination? I happen to be a Methodist myself. That is the 
reason I have a personal interest. 

Mr. Van Camp. I think so. 

Mr. Arens. If you were going to divinity school you certainly must 
know what denomination prevailed. 

Mr. Van Camp. I was a Methodist, but the Baptists and everybody 
were there. 

Mr. Arens. Is it a Methodist seminary? 

Mr. Van Camp. You don't have to be Methodist to go there. 

Mr. Arens. Is it controlled by the Methodist Church ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I don't know. 



3618 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. You entered the seminary in 1949. Tell us, if you 
please, how long you attended the seminary ? 

Mr. Van Gamp. I left there before completing a semester. 

Mr. Arens. What occasioned 3'our disassociation from the semi- 
nary ? 

Mr. Van Camp. A personal decision. 

Mr. Arens. Was that com]iletely voluntary on your part? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You decided the call was not quite clear to you, is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Van Camp. You could put it that way. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us what you did next. 

Mr. Van Camp. I went to the University of North Carolina. I 
needed the extra work to get a teaching certificate. So I Avent there 
because they had courses there and they didn't offer them at Duke. 

Mr. Arens. Please pause a moment, sir. When did you enter the 
University of North Carolina ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Immediately the next quarter. 

Mr. Arens. Would that be in 1950? 

Mr. Van Camp. That would be in 1950, yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. In what courses did you enroll at the University of 
North Carolina ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Various required courses to teach. 

Mr. Arens. Looking toward a teacher's certificate, is that correct? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

jSTr. Arens. How long did you pursue that course at the University 
of North Carolina for which you enrolled in 1950? 

Mr. Van Camp. I went there until the summer school, and in order 
to get courses which they didn't offer there, I went back to Duke sum- 
mer school and got my certificate. 

Mr. Arens. What degree did you receive? 

Mr. Van Camp. It is not a degree. You luive to have certain re- 
quired courses. 

Mr. Arens. In what year did you receive a full-fledged certificate? 

Mr. Van Camp. They call it a "B'' certificate. You lu^ve to teach a 
year or have practiced teaching. 

Mr. Arens. A^Tien did you get the "B" certificate? 

Mr. Van Camp. I suppose it was right after I finished my training. 

Mr. Arens. What year? 

Mr. Van Camp. That would be in the sunnner of 1950. The end of 
the summer of 1950. 

Mr. Arens. In Avhat courses did vou receive voui- certificate to 
teach ? 

Mr. Van Camp. In mathematics and science. 

Mr. Arens, Physical science? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Take us on from there, if you ])lease. We are up to 
1950, and you have your ''J>" certificate from Duke I'uiversity to 
teach. 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Arens. AVould you ])ause a moment? In wliat type of school 
does a "IV certificate peiinit you to teach, in high school, grade 
school, college? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3619 

Mr. Van Camp. There are probably certain grades you cannot teach 
in the grammar school for the certificate I had because it was for math- 
ematics and science. There is some diiierence there. I don't know 
exactly. 

Mr. Arens. We will go on to the schools where you taught after 
receiving your certificate. 

Mr. Van Camp. I don't teach now. 

Mr. Arens. You got your certificate to teach, but you decided not 
to teach ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I taught. You mean where did I teach? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. In 1950 you procured a B certificate to teach 
mathematics and physical science. Now what happened next? 

Mr. Van Camp. I got employment at East Rockingham, N. C. I 
don't recall the name. 

Mr. Arens. Was it a high school ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I started teaching the seventh grade. The high- 
school teacher left to get married and I took her place. 

Mr. Arens. AVliat did you teach in the seventh grade, all courses? 

Mr. Van Camp. The whole thing ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any extracurricular assignments at the 
high school, such as superintendency of children in any of their social 
or intellectual pursuits? 

Mr. Van Camp. I was employed just to teach. I don't remember 
anything else I might have done. 

Mr. Arens. Didn't the high school have certain clubs or assign- 
ments or social activities of the students which were under the super- 
vision of the teachers ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir; I suppose so. 

Mr. Arens. Did you engage in those activities? 

Mr. Van Camp. If they fell to my duty, I suppose so. 

Mr, Arens. That has been only 5 years ago. Can you tell us 
whether or not you had assignments to help run any of the clubs 
of the students? Were you what might be called a faculty adviser 
or sponsor ? 

Mr. Van Camp. No, sir; I can't remember anything like that. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you teach in the high school at East 
Rockingham, N. C. ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I resigned aftei- that year. 

Mr. Arens. You resigned at the end of 1950; is that correct? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir ; I think so. 

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your resignation? 

Mr. Van Camp. Wait a minute. 

Mr. Arens. I am sorry, 

Mr. Van Camp. That would have been 1951. I taught there from 
1950 to 1951. 

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your resignation? 

Mr, Van Camp, I thought I would try another school, 

Mr, Arens, Is that the exclusive reason for your resignation ? 

Mr, Van Camp, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about the next school, and the dates. 

Mr. Van Camp. I looked that summer for a job teaching and didn't 
find anything satisfactory, and gave it up. 

Mr. Arens. Ga^e up teaching ? 

Mr. Van Camp, Yes, sir. 



3620 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. You have given up the ministry and given up the 
teaching profession. Wliat was your next activity looking toward 
economic gain for yourself ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I looked for any job that I could make a living at. 

Mr. Arens. How long was it before you got another job in 1951? 

Mr. Van Camp. It must have been the end of that summer, I think. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat was the job ? 

Mr. Van Camp. It was working on a construction project. 

Mr. Arens. Where? 

Mr. Van Camp. It was at a housing project in Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. What project ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Called the Piedmont Park, I think. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat did you do on the housing project ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Just everything, common laborer. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you work there ? 

Mr. Van Camp. It wasn't too long. I don't remember. 

Mr. Arens. Was it a matter of a few months ? 

Mr. Van Camp. A short time. 

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your disassociation from that em- 
ployment ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I found another job that paid a little better. 

Mr. Arens. Where was that ? 

Mr. Van Camp. It was working on a building, doing the same sort 
of work. I believe it was just common labor, but a little bit better 
money. 

Mr. Arens. Where was that, please ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Reynolds Tobacco Co. building. 

Mr. Arens. Was that in the Reynolds Tobacco Co. building? 

Mr. Van Camp. Working on it. It was no building yet. 

Mr. Arens. You were working on the construction of a building 
for the Reynolds Tobacco Co., is that correct? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you recall who procured that job for you ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Myself. 

Mr. Arens. All by yourself ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. That began in 1952, to your best recollection, is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Van Camp. 1951 as I best can remember. 

Mr. Arens. We are still in 1951 ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. How long were you working on this construction job at 
the Reynolds Tobacco Co. building, which began your employment in 
1951? 

Mr. Van Camp. However long it was. It lasted up to about the 
fall of the year some time. 

Mr. Arens. The fall of 1951 ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. What happened then? 

Mr. Van Camp. I got a better job. 

Mr. Arens. You quit that job or was the job completed? 

Mr. Van Camp. No, sir, I just quit it when another job went 
through. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere was the other job? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3621 

Mr. Van Camp. At Haines Hosieiy. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat did you do there? 

Mr. Van Camp. I knit. 

Mr. Arens. Where was that? 

Mr. Van Camp. Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. When was that? 

Mr. Van Camp. Eight after that. 

Mr. Arens. Was it in 1952? 

Mr. Van Camp. 1951 into 1952. 

Mr. Arens. You ran a knitting machine? 

Mr. Van Camp. A whole line of them. 

Mr. Arens. Had you ever had experience in running knitting ma- 
chines ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Not before that, no, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Who procured that job for you? 

Mr. Van Camp. Myself. All by myself. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you have that job? 

Mr. Van Camp. A little over a year. 

Mr. Arens. Then what happened? 

Mr. Van Camp. I quit that job and got a job at Turner- White 
Casket Co. 

Mr. Arens. How did you happen to get that job? 

Mr. Van Camp. I went and looked for it. 

Mr. Arens. ^^liy did you want to quit your job running the knitting 
machines ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I went to work at midnight and worked until 
morning, and I could not sleep. 

Mr. Arens. Did you belong to a union while you were at the knitting 
mill? 

Mr. Van Camp. No union there. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do at the casket company ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I worked on caskets. 

Mr. Arens. You made caskets? 

Mr. Van Camp. I helped. 

Mr. Arens. Was that in 1952 ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. Toward the end of 1952. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you hold that job ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Not very long. Maybe 3 months, about toward 
the end of the year. 

Mr. Arens. Why did you not hold that job longer than that? 

Mr. Van Camp. I was fired. 

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I was fired. 

Mr. Arens. IVliy? 

Mr. Van Camp. I didn't do it well enough, i suppose. 

Mr. Arens. You mean your work was not efficient ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir, I just didn't do it fast enough. I couldn't 
keep it up. 

Mr. Arens. Is that the reason you were fired ? 

Mr. Van Camp. That is the reason they gave me. 

Mr. Arens. Give us your next employment. When, where, and 
what did you do ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I got a job at Western Auto Stores during the 
Christmas season for the Christmas rush there. It was not very long. 



3622 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

It was just during the Christmas rush and I was just hired for that 
purpose. 

Mr. Arens. Just for a few months ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Not months. 

Mr. Arens. A few weeks ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Not that long. Just before Christmas up until 
Christmas. 

Mr. Arens. Did you get that job by yourself ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir ; all by myself. 

Mr. Arens. Your next employment ? 

Mr. Van Camp. At Unique Furniture (^o. 

Mr. Arens. AVliere was that ? 

Mr. Van Camp. The same town, Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do there ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I worked on furniture. 

Mr. Arens. When was that ? 

Mr. Van Camp. That was starting New Year's of 1953 and it lasted 
a little over a year, I think. 

Mr. xVrens. Making furniture ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Did you belong to a union while you were with this 
furniture company ? 

Mr. Van Camp. No union there. 

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your disassociation from the Unique' 
Furniture Co. ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I got a better job. 

Mr. Arens. Where was this better job? 

Mr. Van Camp. In a foundry, Briggs-Shafner. 

Mr. Arens. Where is that ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you work there ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Something toward a year. I don't know whether 
it made a year or not. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do there ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I melted metal and poured metal. I was classed 
as a melter. 

Mr. Arens. AVhen did you leave that foundry? 

Mr. Van Camp. That nmst have been in 1955, the best I can figure. 
It was last year. 

Mr. Arens. The latter part of last year, you said? I couldn't quite 
understand you. 

Mr. "\^AN Camp. I don't know just what month ; spring or someAvhere 
around then. 

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your disassociation from the foundry? 

Mr. Van Camp. I ruptured a disk in my back. The work was rather 
heavy, and they laid me off. 

Mr. Arens. Give us your next employment. 

Mr. Van Camp. Tluit is where I am working now. 

Mr. Arens. Wlien did you begin your present employment? 

Mr. Van Camp. That was, I tliink, the spring of last year. 

Mr. Arens. You liave liad so many employments I have actually 
forgotten. I nmst ai)ok)gize, but I do not know where you work now. 

Mr. Van Camp. It is Aluminum Awninj; Co. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES 3623 

Mr. Arexs. Have you told us about all of the education you received ? 

(AVitness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Vax Camp. Wait just a minute. 

Mr. Arens. Let me recite this to you. You told us about your train- 
ing at North Carolina and Duke Universities. Are they the only 
places where you received formal education in the last several years? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you received anj' specialized training in the last 
few years ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Specialized ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. I take the first and fifth on that. 

Mr. Arens. What do you mean, you take the first and fifth? 

Mr. Van Camp. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the 
first and fifth amendments to the Bill of Rights. 

Mr. Arens. Why? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly appreliend that if you told this com- 
mittee whether or not you had taken any specialized training in the 
last few years, in addition to the education which you have thus far 
recited, you would be supplying information which could be used 
against you in a criminal proceeding ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chaiinuui, I respectfully suggest that the witness 
l>e ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman, You are directed to answer that question. 

Mr. Van Camp. I will abide by my answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Look over your right shoulder, please. Do you see 
the man near the wall, about the fourth or fifth from the end, wearing 
eyeglasses? It is the fifth person seated over there. 

Mr. Van Camp. The one that is kind of grinning ? 

Mr. Arens. Next to the lady with the eyeglasses. Do you see him ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I do. 

Mr, Arens, When did you last see him ? 

Mr. Van Camp, I refuse to answer that on the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Arens. That gentleman sitting over there, yesterday came be- 
fore this conunittee of the Congress, took an oath to tell the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth. In the course of his testimony 
he said that lie knew you as a member of the ( ommunist consjjiracy 
;uid that he knew you as oue who was in attendance at a certain (^om- 
iniinist Party leadership training school held at Walnut Cove, N. C, 
in August ll).")i>. Was that num lying or telling the truth when he so 
lestified? 

( Witness consulted his counsel. ) 

Mr. Van Camp. I decline to answer that on the first amendment and 
the fifth amendment. 

]\Ir. Arens. Do you know Charles Childs ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been to Walnut Cove, N. C. ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 



3624 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. I would like to lay before you a photograph previously 
identified in this record to see if it prompts your recollection of any 
place where you may have been. 

Mr. Van Camp. I decline to answer that question on the grounds 
of the first amendment and the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have a rehearsal session with your lawyers be- 
fore you came into this courtroom ? 

Mr. Van Camp. The same answer, sir. Anything I say with my 
counsel is my private business, and I hope you will respect the con- 
fidential relationship between counsel and client. 

Mr. Arens. I did not ask you what you said. 

The Chairman. You may think it is your private business but it is 
not. It is the business of the United States. We have sat here very 
patiently and watched your lawyers telling you what to say even when 
you did not seek legal advice. It is the business of this committee to 
know just exactly what we have asked you. We are trying to get the 
truth, not to conceal it. 

Mr. Arens. I think the record should be clear, Mr. Chairman, that 
the rules of this committee provide that the participation of counsel 
to a witness during the course of any hearing, and while the witness 
is testifying shall be limited to advising said witness as to his legal 
rights. For the last 2 days I have heard counsel here buzzing like 
bees. Unfortunately I have overheard some remarks which I do not 
think fall exclusively within the purview of advice to a witness as 
to his legal rights. 

The Chairman. On several occasions, I have been tempted to admin- 
ister the oath and deal directly with counsel. 

Mr. GiLLiLAND. Sir, are you trying to intimidate counsel? 

The Chairman. I am not attempting to intimidate you or anyone 
else. 

Mr. G1LLILA.ND. All right, sir. 

The Chairman. I just want you to know that I was not born 
yesterday. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently a member of the Communist con- 
spiracy ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. Will you repeat that question ? 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently a member of the Communist con- 
spiracy ? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. I decline to answer that on the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Arens. State your answer correctly. Are you presently a 
member of the Communist conspiracy ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I decline to answer that, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Why ? 

Mr. Van Camp. On the basis of the first amendment of the Con- 
stitution and the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us all of the organizations of the non-Communist, 
nonsensitive variety to which you belong. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. Will you repeat that last question? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3625 

Mr. Arens. Tell us all of the organizations you belong to which 
could not, by the wildest stretch of the imagination, be called Commu- 
nist controlled or dominated or front organizations. 

Mr. Van Camp. I am afraid I will have to refuse to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. I want 
you to understand that you are being asked by counsel to give the 
names of organizations which are not Communist, not proscribed 
organizations, so that you will know what you are doing when you 
answer the question. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

The Chairman. Will you answer the question, please? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

The Chairman. I wish counsel would not interrupt their witness 
all the time. 

Mr. Van Camp. They are not interrupting, sir. I would like to 
have them tell me what my legal rights are in this case. 

The Chairman. Answer the question. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. Are you ready for my answer ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

Mr. Van Camp. I don't know because I don't know what the com- 
mittee's definition of what a non-Communist or Communist organiza- 
tion is. I will have to decline to answer that question on the basis of 
the first amendment and the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. If you do not know what a non-Communist or- 
ganization is, wliy do you refuse to answer the question as to Avhether 
or not you are a member of the Communist conspiracy? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. I will have to decline to answer that for the same 
reason. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to ask if you can help us a little on some 
other individuals. Did you ever know a person by the name of 
Ralph C.Clontz, Jr.? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. I will decline to answer that on the first and fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Joseph Franklin Blake? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Nathaniel Bond ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. John V. Myers? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. William Evans? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Viola Brown? 

Mr. Van Camp. Excuse me just a minute, sir. 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. I would like to amend one answer. 

Mr. Arens. Good ; we would like you to do so. 

Mr. Van Camp. Bill Evans is my brother-in-law. 



3626 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. I i\iii glad to have you tell us that. Tell us how else 
you have known him. You know him as your brother-in-law. He 
married your sister, I take it. 

Mr. Van ('amp. Yes. 
Mr. Arens. Have you been with him on social occasions ? 
(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Arens. Did you attend the wedding i 

Mr. Van Camp. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What other sessions have you attended with Bill Evans ^ 
(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. As to any other relationship with Bill Evans, 1 
will have to rely on the first amendment and tl\e fifth amendment to 
refuse to answer. 

Mr, Arens. Is Bill Evans about your a^e ? 
(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. About, I supi)ose. 

Mr. Arens. Did you and he go to the uniAersity together ? 
(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. I don't think he was attending the same university 
at the same time I was. I don't know. 

Mr. Arens. Were you and Bill Evans classmates at that training 
school portrayed in the picture we displayed to you? 

Mr. Van Camp, I will have to refuse to answer that on the basis 
of the first and fifth amendments. 

Ml". Arens. Do you know your brother-in-law as a member of the 
Connnuiiist conspiracy ? 

Mr. Yan Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens, Do you want to amend vour answers on anyone besides 
Bill Evans? 

Mr. Van Camp. No, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. Just a minute. How about John V. Myers ? 

Mr. Van Camp. I said, "No, sir'' ; I don't want to amend. 

The Chairman. You do not want to amend your answer about him ? 
He is the man your lawyer stated, after the hearing, was not a Com- 
munist. 

Mr. Arp:ns. Can you tell this committee and the people of this 
community while you are in a public session whether or not your 
counsel, Miss Laks, was sent here by tlie Communist conspiracy to 
tell you what to do? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van Camp. I will have to rely on the first and fifth on that, sir. 

Mr. Arens. (^m you kindly tell us why it is slie is a})])earing here 
for every witness? Does she ha])pon by coincidence to be employed 
here in North Carolina by a dozen or so witnesses wlien she is a lawyer 
in New York City ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer on that. 

Mr. Arexs. Did you know hei- prior to the time you had your 
meeting on the weekend? 

(AVitness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Van- Cami-. 1 believe I said T met Miss Eaks on Sunday foi- the 
first time. 

Mi-, .\rfns. Do \<)u know Don '\"\\'st ? 



ENVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3627 

Mr. Van Camp. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the 
first and fifth. 

Mr. Arens. How about Bill Robertson? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mary Major Robertson ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. How about Bill McGirt? 

(Witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Do you know him ? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you knom Emanuel Coutlakis 'i 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Viola Brown? 

Mr. Van Camp. Same answer. 

Mr. Kearney. Counsel, have you asked the witness whether he 
knows the professor or lecturer at that school, Binkley ? 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Professor Binkley ? 

Mr. Van Camp. The same answer on that. 

Mr. Arens. Is he the same as Farmer Binkley ? 

Mr. Van Camp. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this would 
conclude the interrogation of this witness. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused from fm'ther attendance 
under the subpena. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Arens. Mrs. William F. Robertson, or ]Mary Major Robertson, 
kindly come forward. 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mrs. Robertson. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MARY MAJOR ROBERTSON, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, RHODA LAKS AND JAMES D. GILIILAND 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mrs. Robertson. I beg your pardon, sir ? 

Mr. Arens. Please give us your name, residence, and occupation. 

Mrs. Robertson. Mary Major Robertson. I live in Asheville, N. C, 
and I am a housewife. 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today, Mrs. Robertson, in response 
to a subpena served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Ameri- 
can Activities ? 

Mrs. Robertson. I am, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Mrs. Robertson. I am, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Would counsel kindly identify themselves for this 
record ? 

Miss Laks. Rhoda Laks, 615 Columbus Avenue, New York City. 

Mr. GiLLiLAND. James D. Gilliland, Warrenton, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Robertson, please tell us when you first became 
acquainted with your counsel. Miss Laks ? 

75146—56 9 



3628 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question, sir. 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I met her last night. 

Mr. Arens. Apparently you are exercising the women's prerogative 
and changing your mind. You met her when ? 

Mrs. Robertson. Last night. 

Mr. Arens. What occasioned your meeting ? 

( Witness consulted her counsel . ) 

The Chairman. You do not need legal advice to answer that 
question. 

Mrs. Robertson. I was introduced to her by someone. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliere was this introduction ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. In the Hotel Charlotte lobby. 

Mr. Arens. Wliattime? 

Mrs. Robertson. I don't remember, sir. I don't have a watch and 
I didn't look at the clock. 

Mr. Arens. Was it in the evening ? 

Mrs. Robertson. It was after dark. 

Mr. Arens. And who did the introducing ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel. ) 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question, sir, under the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. How did you happen to be in the lobby of the Hotel 
Charlotte last evening ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I came to meet Miss Laks. 

Mr. Akens. And what occasioned your coming to meet her ? 

( Witness consulted her counsel. ) 

Mr. Akens. How did you know Miss Laks was going to be in the 
lobby? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mr. Kearney. It would save a lot of time if the attorney would 
testify. 

Mrs. Robertson. I needed a lawyer, sir, and that is where we had 
an appointment. 

Mr. Arens. Did you instigate the meeting ? 
(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question, sir, again under 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliere were you born ? I will ask you when but that is 
probably impolite. 

Mrs. Robertson. I was born in 1923, January 18, El Paso, Tex. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you will, please, a word of your personal 
background and education. 

Mrs. Robertson. I went to a couple of parochial schools up to the 
fourth grade in El Paso. I moved to Asheville, where my home has 
been ever since. I attended parochial school, grammar school, and 2 
years of liigh school. 

Mr. Arens. When did you complete your formal education in high 
school ? 

Mrs. Robertson. It would be about 1030 or 1937. 

Mr. Arens. From wliat higli scliool did you graduate? 

Mi-s. Robertson. I didn't graduate, sir. I attended only 2 years. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3629 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. EoBERTsoN. I don't know whether that includes traininp- 
programs m the Army or not, sir. nciuaes ti ainmg 

partLpatT'- ™^ ^' "^^ "^ '^'' '""^^^^ P^^^^^^^^ "^ ^^"^i^ jou did 

sch'^oHnlnr/oVcl''''^^^^ ^"' ^^^'"^^^^ ^^^- photographic 
Mr. Arens. How did you happen to be in the Air Force « 
Mrs. Robertson. I was not drafted, sir. I enlisted. 
Mr.AREisrs. ^Vlien? 
Mrs. Robertson. In 1943, October. 
Mr. Arens. At whose instigation did you enlist ? 
Mrs. Robertson. My own, sir. 
Mr. Arens. How long did you serve ? 
Mrs. Robertson. Until 1946. 
Mr. Arens. Where did you serve ^ 
Mrs. Robertson. In the United States. 
Mr. Arens. What was tlie nature of vour service » 
Mrs. Robertson. I was a photographer 
Mr Arens. What pictures did you take ? 
( Vv itness consulted her counsel ) 

(Witness consulted lier counsel.) 
Mrs. Robertson. Same answer, sir. 

(Witness consulted her counsel ) 
Mrs. Robertson. Same answer, sir 

in^ntShool^d'tt^T "■'•'°'"8 '^^r y°" ^'"^ besides the 2 years 
your 1 aflon a, n 1^ „„ 'T"^ '"'," ''^'' I"-i^™quisite to attafning 
(wft^'^slllt&ZnselT'' •'" "" Government? 



3630 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question, sir, under the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Did you receive other training? 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse again, sir, the same question. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do after completion of your 2 years' edu- 
cation in high school, which I understood ended in 1937 ? 

Mrs. Robertson. I was working, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Where? 

Mrs. Robertson. I worked for a time as a waitress in a restaurant, 
for a time as clerk in a dime store. I worked for Western Union as 
a messenger. 

Mr. Arens. Where were these employments? All in this State or, 
the same community ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. Well, some in Asheville and some in Washington, 
D. C. 

Mr. Arens. When did you work in Washington, D. C. ? 

Mrs. Robertson. I worked at a dime store and Western Union in 
Washington, D. C. 

Mr. Arens. When? 

Mrs. Robertson. It must have been around 1941 or 1942. 

Mr. Arens. Let us go on. We are in 1941 and you are working in 
Washington, D. C. as a clerk and at the Western Union. Wliat was 
your next employment and when ? 

Mrs. Robertson. I worked in a photographic studio as a darkroom 
technician. 

Mr. Arens. Where? 

Mrs. Robertson. Asheville, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. When? 

Mrs. Robertson. From 1941 or 1942 to 1943 when I enlisted. 

Mr. Arens. That then would bring us up to 1946, wouldn't it ? You 
enlisted in 1943 and served to 1946? 

Mrs. Robertson. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do after you got out of the service in 
1946? 

Mrs. Robertson. I went back to my old job in the photo lab. 

Mr. Arens. Where? 

Mrs. Robertson. In Asheville. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you employed there? 

Mrs. Robertson. For about 3 or 4 months. 

Mr. Arens. Then what happened? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question under the first 
and fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. AVlien did you conclude your work at the photograph 
establishment? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. About August. 

Mr. Arens. August of 1946? 

Mrs. Robertson. 1946, yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you get another job after August 1946? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question under the first 
and fifth amendment. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3631 

Mr. Arens. Were you unemployed after 1946 and 1947? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. KoBERTsoN. I refuse to answer that question under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliat was your next employment? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Eobertson. I believe in around 1949 I went to work for the 
Morgan Manufacturing Co. in Black Mountain, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere was the employment in which you were engaged 
from 1946 until 1949? By where, I mean what geographical loca- 
tion of the United States. 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer this under the first and fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

The ChxVIrman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mrs. Robertson. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you engaged in your employment in 
1949 and where was it ? 

Mrs. Robertson. Morgan Manufacturing Co. For about 8 months. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us again where that is located, please? 

Mrs. Robertson. Near Black Mountain, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do there ? 

Mrs. Robertson. I was the assistant designer. It was a furniture 
factory. 

Mr. Arens. What was your next employment ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. Three Mountaineers Industries, I believe was the 
name. Three Mountaineers, in Biltmore, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. T\nien? 

Mrs. Robertson. When I quit working at Morgan, that would be 
1949, 1950, and overlapping year. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you employed there? 

Mrs. Robertson. About 6 months. 

Mr. Arens. And your next employment ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I was unemployed. 

Mr. Arens. For how long were you unemployed ? 

Mrs. Robertson. For about 18 months. 

Mr. Arens. Wlien w^as your next employment ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. Dixie Novelty Co. 

Mr. Arens. When? That would get you up to about 1951; would 
it not? 

Mrs. Robertson. Eighteen months of unemployment, about 1952 or 
1953. 

Mr. Arens. All right. Wliere was the Dixie Novelty Co. ? 

Mrs. Robertrson. Asheville. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do there ? 

Mrs. Robertson. I counted screws. 

Mr. Arens. And your next employment please ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I have not been employed anywhere since then. 



3632 INVESTIGATION OF COMJMTJNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. During the employments which you have recounted 
to this committee, did you also have another employment? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Were you ever active among the cigarette workers in 
North Carolina ? 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Wlien did you get married ? 

Mrs. Robertson. 1949. 1948. 

Mr. Arens. Your husband's name, please? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. That was 1948, you understand, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You married in 1948 ? 

Mrs. Robertson. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And your husband's name? 

Mrs. Robertson. Billie Fred Robertson. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to read you some testimony given under 
oath before this committee in November 1954. 

Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Long, were you ever a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Long. Yes, sir, absolutely. I joined the party in 1946, the summer of 
1946, not long after I joined the university, and I left the party in 1948; the 
spring of 1948 I went to my last meeting;. 

Mr. Long. * * * At this Beacon School — it was a school confined solely to the 
southern Communists by the national committee, from North Carolina, Georgia, 
and Alabama. 

Mr. KuNziG. Can you name some southerners you knew in this camp? 

Mr. Long. Clara Hutchinson, of Roanoke, Va. 

Mr. KuNziG. Was she at the school where only the Communists were? 

Mr. Long. Yes ; she told me her husband was an organizer of some Syrian 
descent and organized around Roanoke. Clarence Goforth, from Norfolk, Va. 
I never did know how to spell his last name. He was a trade unionist and a 
member of the party. Mary Major from Asheville, N. C. The last I knew she 
was in Winston-Salem distributing printed matter among the white workers 
at the Camel cigarette factory. 

Was that Mary Major, concerning whom Ralph Vernon Long gave 
testimony under oath before the House Un-American Activities Com- 
mittee, yourself? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question under the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee whether or not yon are the Mary Major about whom Mr. 
Long was testifying, you would be giving information which could 
be used against you in a criminal proceeding ? 

Mrs. Robertson. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Was Mr. Long lying or telling the truth when he identi- 
fied Mary Major of Asheville, N. C? 

Mrs. Robertson. Same answer. 

Mr. Kearney. Is the Beacon, N. Y., school a Communist school? 

Mrs. Robertson. Are you asking me, sir? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question under the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. I^ARNEY. Have you been there? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3633 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question under the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kearney. Have you ever been in New York State ? 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question under the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kearney. You mean you would be liable to incriminate j^our- 
self if you stated whether you had been in New York State ? 

Mrs. Robertson. Are you asking me, sir? 

Mr. KJEARNEY. I certainly am. 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question under the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kearney. That sets me down, because I am from New York 
State and I am not ashamed of it. 

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Robertson, are you presently a member of the 
Communist conspiracy? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer tliat question under the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Last Congress there was passed a law which provides, 
among other things, a means whereby immunity can be granted to a 
witness from r-riminal prosecution if that witness' testimony is desired 
by a congressional conmiittee and certain procedures are then followed. 
If tlie House Committee on Un-^Vmerican Activities should initiate a 
proceeding whereby you would be granted immunity from criminal 
prosecution would you then testify and tell the representatives of your 
Government the answers to any questions we would propound ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer that question under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently afraid of criminal prosecution ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Zilrs, Robertson. I refuse to answer that question under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have any children ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. How many children ? 

Mrs. Robertson. One. 

Mr. Arens. The a^e of the child ? 

Mrs. Robertson. Seven, almost. 

Mr. Arens. Does the child go to school ? 

Mrs. Robertson. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Would you want that child to grow up in a republic 
permeated and threatened by an international godless conspiracy ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I am happy that my child is an American, just as 
I am happy that I am an American, However, I am afraid that I will 
have to refuse to answer under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Would you want to serve your Nation by giving infor- 
mation respecting a conspiracy so that child of yours can grow up 
in a free society, worship God as he pleases, speak freely, have the 
rights accorded him under the Constitution ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. My answer to this is the same as the previous. 



3634 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, that would conclude, if you please, the 
interrogation by the staff of this witness. 

Mr. Willis. ]\Ir. Chairman, I regret very much that this witness 
did not take advantage of our offer. We hoped among each other that 
did not tak advantage of our offer. We hoped that she would. Here is 
a person before us who says thta seh is afraid of criminal prosecution 
and we make the offer. If a fear honestly exists, it would remove 
this fear. Would your testify in executive session and not in public? 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer the question under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

The (yHATRMAN. "Wliat was that answer? 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer the question under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

The Chairman. I direct you to answer that question. 

Mrs. Robertson. I refuse to answer under the same grounds. 

The Chairman. It is my duty under a decision of the Supreme 
Court of the United States to advise you about this last answer. You 
are very clearly in contempt of the Congress of the United States. I 
am advising you of the consequences of contempt. I again direct 
you to answer the question. 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. If any proceedings were brought against me I 
would have to make the decision at that time, sir. In the meantime, 
I am still under the first and fifth amendments. 

The Chairman. We are very much interested, and actually this 
committee is responsible for the immunity statute, in seeing how far 
people would go if they were not interfered with from outside in- 
fluences. That is one of the reasons for this immunity statute. I 
again say to you that if this committee and the Congress, employing 
the proper procedures, guarantee to you that you will not be prose- 
ecuted, since you have indicated as a reason for not answering the 
questions, a fear of what the consequences might be, would you then 
answer the questions we might see fit 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

The Chairman. Don't interfere with your client until I complete 
my question. 

Mrs. Robertson. I was speaking to my counsel. 

The Chairman. If you were gi-antecl the proper assurances and 
protection under the very Constitution we are talking about, would 
you then answer our questions ? 

(Witness consulted her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robertson. I am not only relying on the fifth amendment, sir, 
but also the first, which guarantees me freedom of thought and asso- 
ciation. Therefore, I refuse to answer the question under the first 
and fifth amendments. 

The Chairman. Is tliat your own decision, freely arrived at? 

Mrs. Robertson. It is, sir. 

The Chairman. Is there anything further? 

Mr. Arens. No, thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

The committee will recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. 

(Thereupon, at 4: 10 p. m. Tuesday, March 13, a recess was taken 
until 10 a. m., Wednesday, March 14, 195G.) 



INVESTIGATION OF C0M3IUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE 

NORTH CAROLINA AREA 



WEDNESDAY, MABCH 14, 1956 

United States House of Representatpstes, 

Subcommittee of the 
Committee on Un-American AcTmTiES, 

Charlotte^ N. G. 
public hearing 

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met 
at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the Federal Courthouse, Charlotte, 
N. C, Hon. Francis E. Walter, (chairman) , presiding. 

Committee members present : Eepresentatives Walter, Willis, and 
Kearney. 

Staff members present: Richard Arens, acting counsel, and W. 
Jackson Jones, investigator. 

The Chairmais". The committee will come to order. 

Call your witness, Mr, Arens. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Reavis. Please remain standmg and raise your 
hand to be sworn. 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give 
shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. Reavis. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF GDIS REAVIS 

Mr. Arens. Please state your full name. 

Mr. Reavis. Odis Reavis. 

Mr. Arens. And your address ? 

Mr. Reavis. 3130 South Main Street, Winston-Salem, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. And your occupation ? 

Mr. Rea\t:s, I work at Western Electric. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere? 

Mr. Reavis. In Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat plant is that, Mr. Reavis ? 

Mr. Reaves. It is the Walltown plant. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which 
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities, is that correct ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ? 

Mr. Reaves. I was born in Lexington, N. C, October 3, 1924. 

Mr. Arens. Give us a word about your education. "Where did you 
go to high school ? 

Mr. Reaves. At High Point High School. 

3635 



3636 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Was it around 1940 that you attended the High Point 
High School? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you first employed after leaving high 
school ? 

Mr. Reavis. At the Pickett Cotton Mill at High Point. 

Mr. Arens. What happened after your employment in the cotton 
mill at High Point? 

Mr. Reavis. I entered the service. 

Mr. Arens. What branch of the service did you enter? 

Mr. Reavis. Marine Corps. 

Mr. Arens. When did you enter the Marine Corps ? 

Mr. Reavis. In 1942.^ 

Mr. Arens. Where did you serve in the Marines ? 

Mr. Reavis. In the Pacific theater. 

Mr. Arens. When were you discharged. 

Mr. Reavis. 1945. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us your principal employments 
after being discharged from the Marines ? 

Mr. Reavis. I went into furniture work. 

Mr. Arens. Where was that? 

Mr. Reavis. In High Point. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you engaged in the furniture work ? 

Mr. Reavis. During 1945 — no, during 1946 and 1947. 

Mr. Arens. And then where did you go? 

Mr. Reavis. To Detroit, Mich. 

Mr. Arens. Was that in 1947 ? 

Mr. Reavis. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Where did you work in Detroit? 

Mr. Reavis. Briggs Manufacturing Co. 

Mr. Arens. What is that? 

Mr. Rea\'is. It is body production for Chrysler. 

Mr. Arens. About how long did you work at Briggs in Detroit? 

Mr. Reaves. Six or seven months. 

Mr. Arens. Did you work for anyone else in the Detroit area ? 

Mr. Reavis. At Motor Products. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you work there? 

Mr. Reavis. About 7 months. 

Mr. Arens. Then where did you go ? 

Mr. Reavis. I came back to High Point, N. C. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat year? 

Mr. Reavis. I left between the two occupations. The last time I 
came back was in 1949. 

Mr, Arens. In 1949 you came on back to High Point, N. C; is 
that correct? 

Mr. Reavis. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us where you were then employed, 

Mr. Reavis. I had employment in a couple of places. 

Mr. Arens. Your principal employment ? 

Mr. Reavis. A year or so at Piedmont Cigar. 

Mr. Arens. After that where did you work ? 

Mr. Reavis. At Western Electric. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ? 

Mr. Reavis. It is restricted work for the Government. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3637 

Mr. Arens. Have you worked there continuously ever since ? 

Mr. IIea\is. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Is the work in which you are engaged, and have been 
engaged for some time, the production of confidential devices used 
in defense of our Government ? Is that correct ? 

Mr. Rea\t:s. Yes, sir ; it is. 

Mr. Arens. Because of security regulations you cannot tell us 
about it ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Reavis, are you a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Reavis. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Reavis. I have been a member of the Communist Party to seek 
information for the Government only. 

Mr. Arens. Is it a fact that your membership in the Communist 
Party was in cooperation with an intelligence agency of the Gov- 
ernment ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Is it a fact that you were never ideologically identified 
with the Communist Party '? 

Mr. Rea\^s. That is true. 

Mr, Arens. Is it a fact that during your membership in the Com- 
munist Party you were continuously reporting information to intelli- 
gence agencies of your Government at their behest as a patriotic 
service ? 

Mr. REAA^s. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us, please, sir, before we get into further details, 
the period of time in which you were actually in the Communist Party, 
althouah not ideologically identified with the party ? 

Mr. Rf.\vis. From 1947 until 1953. I signed for 1953, but I didn't 
attend meetings after 1953. I had contact, but I attended no meetings. 

Mr. Arens. Because of the delicate nature and manner in which 
you did become identified with the Communist Party I will not inter- 
rogate you any further on the manner of your admission into the 
party or the circumstances of your admission, ai least in a public 
session. But I should like to ask j^ou to tell us where you joined the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Reavis. In Detroit, Mich. 

Mr. Arens. And because of the scope of the inquiry of this commit- 
tee here in North Carolina with respect to Communist activities in 
the South and in this area, I will not in this session interrogate you 
respecting Communist Party activities with which you were affiliated 
or identified in the Detroit area. For that reason, I ask if you were in 
the Connnunist Party when you returned to High Point, N. C, which, 
according to your previous statement, was in 1949. 

Mr. Reavis. I was given someone to contact. I was not given a 
transfer. 

Mr. Arens. "V\^io instructed you to contact a certain person when 
you returned in North Carolina in 1949? 

Mr. Reavis. Lee Marsh of Detroit, 

Mr. Arens. Was he a Communist Party f mictionary ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. So we may have this record absolutely clear, would you 
spell his name for us ? 



3638 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Reavis. L-e-e M-a-r-s-h. 

Mr. Arens. M-a-r-s-li ? 

Mr. Reavis. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. He was the Communist Party fimctionary in Detroit 
who told you when you left Detroit to come to North Carolina in 1949 
that you were to contact a certain person, is that correct ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Whom did he tell you you were to contact ? 

Mr. Reavis. Bernard Friedland. 

Mr. Arens. Could you identify him? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. "\'V1io was he ? 

Mr. Reavis. He was a district organizer for the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. In the North Carolina area ? 

Mr. Reavis. In the North Carolina area. I think it was three 
States. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat States comprised his district ? 

Mr. Reavis. South Carolina, and I think Tennessee and North 
Carolina. 

Mr. Arens. Did you contact Bernard Friedland ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. Arens. How did you contact him ? 

Mr. Reavis. By mail. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us what happened. 

Mr. Reavis. He came to me to make a personal contact. He came 
to my home to make a personal contact. 

Mr. Arens. Did he identify himself to you as one of the comrades? 

Mr. Reaves. Yes, sir ; he did. 

Mr. Arens. Just tell us in your own words what happened. 

Mr. Reavis. Bernard Friedland and Junius Scales came to my 
home. 

Mr. Arens. Let us pause there a moment, please. Identify Scales 
for us. 

Mr. Reavis. He is chairman of the Communist Party of North 
Carolina. 

Mr. Arens. Was he the chairman at that time ? 

Mr. Reaves. Yes, sir ; he was. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us what transpired. 

Mr. Reavis. They asked me if I would be interested in entering a 
cell in the State, and was I going to stay in the State, and I told them 
I was. So they said, "We may have a club for you in a short time." 
I don't remember word for word what they said. 

Mr. Arens. Was that the essence of the conversation ? 

Mr. Reaves. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Then did you subsequently with their cooperation, 
affiliate with a group which was a Communist Party cell ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliere was that cell ? 

Mr. Reaves. It was made up of Thomasville and High Point furni- 
ture workers. 

Mr. Arens. Thomasville and High Point furniture workers? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What do you mean by that? 



INVESTIGATION OF COIMMTJNIST ACTIVITIES 3639 

Mr. Eeavis. The club was primarily furniture. They asked me 
what industry I would probably pursue here in North Carolina. 
I told them that it would probably be furniture. So I was assigned 
to a furniture club. 

Mr. Arens. How long was it after your conversation with Scales 
and Friedland that you actually became identified with this Commu- 
nist Party cell in High Point ? 

Mr. Reavis. I had a caller, Willie Helms, within a week or two 
after that. He identified himself as a union organizer only. 

Mr. Arens. For what union ? 

Mr. Reavis. United Furniture Workers of America, CIO. I am not 
sure of the name of the organization at this time. 

Mr. Arexs. Do you recall the exact name of the furniture workers 
local or union with which he said he was identified ? 

Mr. Reavis. I don't remember the number at this time. It is out 
of Thomasville. 

Mr. Arens. About how long was it after you had this conversation 
with Scales and Friedland that you actually became affiliated with 
the cell ? 

Mr. Reaat[S. Approximately a month or two. 

Mr. Arens. Is that your best recollection ? 

Mr. Rea%^s. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us on the basis of your identifica- 
tion in this Communist Party cell at High Point beginning in 1949, the 
names of other persons who were known by you to a certainty to have 
been members of that Communist Party cell? Give us the names, 
please, and a word of identification with respect to each of them. 

Mr. Rea\^s. Charles Coburn. 

Mr. Arens. How do you spell Coburn ? 

Mr. Rea\t:s. You are asking the world's worst speller. 

Mr. Arens. Phonetically would you say C-o-b-u-r-n, something 
along that line ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir ; that is about it. 

Mr. Arens. Before we proceed with another name, tell us what 
you know about liim. 

Mr. Reavis. He was a furniture organizer there in Thomasville, and 
he worked in South Carolina and North Carolina, also, with the 
furniture workers organization. 

Mr. Arens. Can you just give us a word of description about- him? 

Mr. REA^^s. He was rather tall and blond. 

Mr. Arens. Give us the name, if you have one, of another person 
who to your certain knowledge, was a member of this Communist cell. 

Mr. Reavis. His wife, Minion Coburn. 

Mr. Arens. IMinion ? 

Mr. REA^^:s. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. I guess that would be spelled M-i-n-i-o-n. 

Mr. Rea-vtcs. That sounds about correct. 

Mr. Arens. Could you give us a word of description about her ? 

Mr. Reavis. She was rather short. I would say five two, dark 
hair — ^black, I think. 

Mr. Arens. Give us another name, if you please, sir. 

Mr. Reavis. Willie Helms. 

Mr. Arens. Identify Willie Helms. H-e-1-m-s? 

Mr. Reavis. That is right. 



3640 INVESTIGATIOX OF COJVUVIUNIST ACTIVITIES . 

Mr, Arens. Is Willie a nickname for William ? 

Mr. Reavis. I think it must be. 

Air. Ahens. You knew him as Willie, though ? 

Mr. IIea\t:s. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Identify him for us, please, sir. 

Mr. Reavis. He was in his forties, I imagine. I think he was 
partially bald and light hair. I think he had a ridge in it. I am not 
positive. 

Mr. Aeexs. "V\^iere did he work ? 

Mr. Reavis. He also organized in the Furniture Workers, CIO. 

Mr. Arens. Was he a full-time organizer, or did he work in some 
other occupation and organize on the side ? 

Mr. Reavis. That was liis primary job. He was a full-time 
organizer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have another name for us, please, sir? 

Mr. Rea\t:s. Harvey Cox. 

Mr. Arens. Is that Harvey or Harry ? 

Mr. Reavis. Harvev. 

Mr. Arens. C-o-x ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Could you give us an identification of Harvey Cox ? 

Mr. Reavis. He was 6 foot, blond — light hair, rather, I wouldn't 
say blond — ruddy complexion. 

Mr, Arens. Where did he work ? 

Mr. Rea\is. He worked at Thomas Chair Co., of Thomasville. 

Mr. Arens. Did he have any other occupation, such as organizing 
or anything of that character ? 

Mr. Reavis. He helped in organizing. 

Mr. Arens. For the furniture workers, is that correct! 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have another name for us ? 

Mr. REA^^s. George Johnson. 

Mr. Arens. J-o-h-n-s-o-n ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify him for us, please. 

Mr. Reavis. He was a Negro. I would say he may be in his early 
fifties. 

Mr. Arens. "^Yliere did he work ? 

Mr. Reavis. He worked at the chair company there at Thomasville 
at the time, and had odd jobs at the bus station. 

Mr. Arens. So that this record may be abundantly clear : For the 
entire period of your experience in the Communist Party about which 
you are going to testify, you were not ideologically identified with 
the party, and you were reporting information continuously and con- 
sistently to an intelligence agency of your Government? Is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir ; I was. 

Mr. Arens. Is there another person whose name you can give us 
who was in this Communist Party cell at High Point in 1949, or does 
that complete the group ? 

Mr. Reavis. That completes the group. 

Mr. Arens. Before we proceed chronologically into the next group, 
with which you were associated, may I ask you about some of the 
activities of this High Point group? 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3641 

Mr. Reavis. Tliey participated in peace work. 

Mr. Arens. "What do you mean by peace work ? 

Mr. Eea\t[s. The Stockholm Peace Petition was one. 

Mr. Arens. Did they circulate the Stockliolm Peace Petition? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have occasion during the course of your work 
in the High Point group to penetrate or attempt to penetrate the 
NAACP in this area? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about that. 

Mr. Reavis. We were asked to attend a meeting in Durham. 

Mr. Arens. By whom were you asked ? 

Mr. Reavis. I cannot be positive. Junius Scales met with us at 
one club meeting, and the next club meeting Hank Farash — I forgot 
to mention his name. 

Mr. Arens. Identify Hank Farash for us. 

Mr. Reavis. He was the district organizer. 

Mr. Arens. How do you spell Farash ? 

Mr. Reavis. F-a-r-a-s-h, I think. 

Mr, Arens. He and Scales met with you ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. One met one club meeting and one the next. 

Mr. Arens. TVliat were their instructions ? 

Mr. REi'L^^s. To attend this meeting at Durham as Communists, 
separate and apait from the XAACP, but to aid NAACP activity if 
we were called upon. 

Mr. Arens. Where were the meetings of this Communist Party cell 
held in High Point? 

Mr. Reavis. We did meet at Willie Helms' and George Coburn's 
homes. I am not positive, I think we met once or maybe twice at the 
home of Harvey Cox. Incidentally, his wife seemed to have knowl- 
edge of the party activity and agreement with it, but she never met 
with us. 

Mr. Arens. Did you, in the course of your activities in the High 
Point group, have occasion to meet with Nathaniel Bond. The record 
will reveal that he has been a witness during this current hearing. 

Mr. Reavis. I was asked to meet with him, and I was assisted by 
Junius Scales. We went to Nat Bond's room. 

Mr. Arens. "\^'liere was that ? 

Mr. Reavis. I am not positive. 

Mr. Arens. ^Tiat city ? 

!Mr. REA^^s. It was Durham, I think. 

Mr. Arens. Do you recall what transpired there ? 

jSIr. Reavis. I was in two other organizations at the time. I am not 
positive. It was connected with the Labor Youth League work. I 
don't know whether it was connected with some other organizations. 
I don't remember the name of the other organization. 

Mr. Arens. What were the two organizations with which you were 
connected at that time beside the Communist Party cell? 

Mr. Reaves. Labor Youth League. 

Mr. Arens. That is an arm of the Communist conspiracy, is it not? 

Mr. REA^^s. Yes, sir. And Negro trade union organization. I am 
not positive of that name at this time. 

Mr. Arens. T\^iat was your assignment or activity in the Labor 
Youth League ? 



3642 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

INIr. Reavis. I was literature director. 

Mr. Arens. That is the successor organization to the Young Com- 
munist League, is it not ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir, it is. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do as literature director of the Labor 
Youth League ? 

Mr. Reavis. I received literature from Junius Scales' wife and sold 
it, or I could give it away or distribute it any way I saw fit. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat was the literature which you received? 

Mr, Reavis. I remember one pamphlet was to bring the boys home 
from Korea. It was on the Korean war and the United States being 
the aggressor nation. 

Mr. Arens. How many members were in the Labor Youth League 
when you were a member in 1949 ? 

Mr. Rea\t:s. There were approximately 20 or 25, and then there 
were members that came to maybe 1 or 2 meetings. 

Mr. Arens. Was that 20 or 25 in the LYL in High Point or was 
that 20 or 25 scattered throughout the area ? 

Mr. Reavis. I think 30 would be better for the whole State. They 
were at Greensboro, High Point, Thomasville and Winston-Salem, and 
Durham. 

The Chairman. At this point I would like to ask a question con- 
cerning the literature. Did any of it come from abroad ? 

Mr. Rea\t:s. Sir, I don't remember if it did at that time. It seems 
that we had some literature from Cliina, a paper or something, that 
you used as educational. 

The Chairman. A magazine made up something like our magazine 
"Life"? 

Mr. Reavis. That sounds familiar. Let me explain this. I was 
also literature director of our Communist Party club, and I had a 
hard time keeping the literature separated. There was some diiference. 
I can't remember exactly in referring back to my memory on liter- 
ature. I can't remember which was which at this time. 

The Chairman. But you do remember some were photographs from 
abroad ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The reason why I ask the question, Mr. Arens, is 
that I think your committee in the Senate ran into a situation concern- 
inof similar material where the customs authorities stated that if 
there was not an immediate distribution within 2 weeks, the custom- 
houses at New York and San Francisco would be so filled it would be 
impossible to get anything else in them. I think this committee might 
well concern itself with finding out who is making the distribution of 
tons of this propaganda literature. 

Mr. Arens. And arriving at 40 ports of entry in the United States 
every day by the shipload. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. The customs officials tell us, although I am not testify- 
ing, but to add to the fund of knowledge here, that they are absolutely 
unable to cope with it. It is spewing all over the Nation. 

Mr. Reavis. I do remember one thing on the literature. There was 
an article showing Dulles entering Korea and they claimed he was 
instigating the Korean situation. 






INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3643 

Mr. Arens. Is the periodical to which you refer the China Today 
or China Weekly Review ? 

Mr. Reavis. That sounds familiar. I don't remember too well. 
Mr. Abens. Who was the head of the LYL in this State in 1949 when 
you were identified with it ? 

Mr. R.EAVIS. Junius Scales' wife, Gladys. 

Mr. Aeens. Can you give us the names of any other principal 
officers or moving forces in the LYL ? 

JNIr. Reaat:s. I don't remember exactly the officers. Charles Childs 
was one of the attendants. It seems like he was elected to one of the 
posts. There was Bill McGirt, Jerry Pearson. 

Mr. Arens. Could you go back and identify each of these persons 
as fully as your recollection enables you? You have identified, and 
he has also been identified clearly in this record, Scales and Scales' 
wife Gladys. Take it slowly, if you please, sir, and give us the names 
again of each of these persons in a leadership capacity in the Labor 
Youth League, and as much information about them as you recall. 

Mr. Reavis. I remember Junius' wife to be rather short, I would say 
5 foot, dark hair. 

Mr. Arens. We have an identification of both of them. Will you 
proceed with the others, please ? 

Mr. Reavis. Jerry Pearson. 

Mr. Arens. Let us hesitate right there, please, and tell us who was 
Jerry Pearson, and what you know about him. 

Mr. Reavis. He was a contact, as well as I know, for activity in 
Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. You mean he was a courier between High Point and 
Winston-Salem ; is that right ? 

Mr. Reaves. Yes, sir ; in that area. 

Mr. Arens. That is for the Communist Party, of course. 

Mr. Reavis. Yes. As far as I know. As I say, he never met with 
me at a meeting or anything, but I met him to go to a doctor. One 
time I was examined by a doctor from Duke. He picked me up and 
carried me to George Van Camp's home. 

Mr. Arens. Did he carry messages back and forth between the com- 
rades ? 

Mr. Reavis. He seemed to always have the information back and 
forth. The city committee, I think it was called, in Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have another name in the LYL ? 

Mr. Reavis. Harvey Cox. I think I have described him. 

Mr. Arens. He was likewise in your Communist Party cell. 

Mr. Rea\t:s. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have another name ? 

Mr. Reaves. I think I mentioned Bill McGirt. 

Mr. Arens. Yes. We have already had a description of him. He 
testified here. Perhaps you can give us a description of him in your 
own phraseology. 

Mr. Reavis. He is around in his early thirties. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere did he work ? 

Mr. Reaves. He worked at a fish market in Winston-Salem, not at 
that time, I don't think. He did union organizing at the time as well 
as I know. I didn't know him too well. 

Mr. Willis. He is a fishmonger with a Ph. D. degree. 

75146 — 56 10 



3644 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Do you have another name for us, please? 

Mr. E.EAVIS. I have forgotten where I was at on those names. 

Mr. Arens. McGirt. 

Mr. Reaves. There were people that met with the group in Greens- 
boro but I don't remember their names at this time. I would rather 
not try to 

Mr. Arens. Let us move to this other organization. I was under 
the impression a moment ago you said in addition to your membership 
in the Communist Party cell at High Point, you were a member of two 
other organizations, one of which was the Labor Youth League, and 
the other was a Negro Congress, or something of that character. Can 
you tell us about that? 

Mr. REA\r[S. They were trying to organize nationwide this organi- 
zation for all Negro workers throughout the Nation. 

Mr. Arens. Was that Communist controlled? AVas that the Tri- 
State Negro Trade Union Council ? 

Mr. Reavis. I remember that. I think that was an organization 
that Velma Hopkins was head of. It doesn't seem that was nation- 
wide. It might have been. 

Mr. Arens. Was it identified to your knowledge as the National 
Negro Labor Council ? 

Mr. Reavis. That is it. 

Mr. Arens. That has been cited as a Communist organization. 
That is the parent organization of several of these subsidiary groups. 

Mr. Reavis. Negro leaders in labor unions. That is their prime 
membership. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us what you know about that other organization 
with which you were identified, and who was in it. 

Mr. Reavis. Again I don't remember whether Nat Bond was in 
that particular organization. I think he was attached to it. I Imow 
at that meeting we met with him. Junius said we won't talk about 
the other 

Mr. Arens. Scales? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. We won't talk about the other organization 
at this time, so I think he must have been in both of them. George 
Johnson and Harvey Cox. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word of description about each of 
those or have you done so ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes. There was an Austin. I don't remember the 
first name. 

Mr. Arens. A man or woman ? 

Mr. Reavis. A man. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word of identification ? 

Mr. Reavis. He was from Hendersonville, I think. They were 
contacting him trying to get him more interested. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist Party member? 

Mr. Rea\t;s. No, sir. He was supposed to have been good on party 
lines, but I don't think he was a party member. I never knew if 
he was. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know Viola Brown? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir, I knew her. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know her as a Communist? 

Mr. Reavis. The LYL, I think, met at her home, and I attended 
a meeting. 



IIS^^ESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3645 

Mr. Arens, Can you give us a word of description about Viola 
Brown ? 

Mr. Reaves. She is a Negro lady, I would say in her forties. I don't 
know the age range at this time too well, 

Mr. Arens. She appeared before this committee yesterday. I don't 
believe you were here. 

Have you the name of another person active in this Commimist 
group who worked among the Negroes ? 
Mr. Reavis. Velma Hopkins. 
Mr. Arens. Identify her please, sir. 
Mr. Reavis. She is a Negro lady. 
Mr. Arens. Where is she located ? 
Mr. Reavis. In Winston-Salem. 
Mr. Arens. Where did she work ? 

Mr. Reavis. I think, I am not sure where she works, she worked 
with FTA in Winston- Salem. 

Mr. Arens. Is that the Food, Tobacco, Agricultural and Allied 
Workers Union of America, which subsequently merged with the 
DPOWA — Distributive, Processing, and Office Workers of America, 
CIO! 
Mr. Reaves. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Controlled by the Communists ? 
Mr. Reavis. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know Velma Hopkins as a Communist? 
Mr. Reavis. We went to her home to get directions one night. She 
asked us not to talk too much on the telephone. I think I read a book 
and her name was mentioned once. I don't know her personally as a 
Communist. I never met in a club with her. 

Mr. Arens. Have you the name of another person known by you 
in High Point to have been a Communist and active in the agitation 
on the Negro question among Negroes ? 

Mr. Rea\t:s. I don't remember. There are other people, but I 
don't remember their names too well at this time. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about any other activity in which this 
High Point Communist cell was engaged ? Did it do any organizing 
work as a cell ? 

Mr. Reavis. Of course, they were always trying to recruit members 
for tlie party. They did union organizing. 
Mr. Arens. For what union? 

Mr. Reavis. They did organizing, in the furniture union there in 
Thomasville. 

Mr. Arens. Where were the furniture union employees engaged? 
In what plants did they work? 

Mr. Reavis. Thomas Chair Co., of Thomasville. That is their 
main industry there. 

Mr. Arens. Was that union controlled by the Communist Party? 
Mr. Reavis. It was. It was ousted for Communist activity. 
Mr. Arens. Subsequently, is that correct? 
Mr. Reaves. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about any other activity in the High 
Point cell? 

Mr. Reavis. I think that covers it. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us, before we leave the Hight Point cell, what secu- 
rity measures the Communist Party took in order that people in one 



3646 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

cell, such as the cell you were in, would not know of the identity of 
people in other cells, either in High Point or in other areas of this 
State and community ? 

Mr, Reavis. It was broken down to 4 or 5 members. Five was the 
maximum. 
^ Mr. Arens. To a cell ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Were the members of any cell cognizant of the identity 
of members in other cells ? 

Mr. Reaves. No, sir ; they were not. 

Mr. Arens. Wliy not ? 

Mr. Reavis. For security reasons. You did not talk about people 
in other cells if you knew about them, even to another comrade. 

Mr. Kearney. TYhen you say security reasons, I take it you mean 
Communist security reasons. 

Mr. Reavis. Communist security reasons. 

The Chairman. In that connection, may I ask a question? You 
say for security reasons your identity was not known in other cells. 
Am I to understand from that that tliose persons who were associated 
with you in a cell felt that they were engaged in something illegal and 
unlawful, and for that reason it was necessary to resort to some sort 
of security measures ? 

Mr. Reaves. Yes, sir ; they did. 

The Chairman. That is perfectly apparent. Everyone in the 
United States who has been in this conspiracy knows full well that 
they are a part of the foreign conspiracy to overthrow the United 
States Government through force and violence, isn't that true? 

Mr. Reaves. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Kearney. It shows from the testimony, Mr. Chairman, that 
this is not the so-called political organization which some witnesses 
try to make us believe that it is. 

The Chairman. No: I never heard of the Democratic Party, of 
which I am very proud to be a member, resorting to security meas- 
ures. Proceed, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. May I ask if you ever knew a person by the name of 
Charles Childs? 

Mr. Reaves. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Arens. Did you in the course of your membership in the 
Communist Party ever learn that Charles Childs likewise was report- 
ing to the Federal Bureau of Investigation ? 

Mr. Reaves. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You and he had no information respecting the true 
nature of the identification of the other with the intelligence agencies 
of this Government, is that right? 

Mr. Reaves. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. We will probably go into that later again. But I think 
that helps develop the security system within the Communist Party. 
Did you report on Childs? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir, I did; and he did on me, too. He called my 
name during these hearings. 

Mr. Arends. He identified you before this committee as a person 
who was known by him to have been a member of the Communist 
Party. You have never testified publicly before, have you ? 

Mr. Reavis. No, sir. 



INVESTIGATION OF COlVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3647 

Mr. Arens. Wliile we are on this security theme, since you disasso- 
ciated yourself from the Communist Party, have any of its members 
been around to try to get you to return to the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir; they did. 

Mr. Arens. Have you had contact here recently with a man by 
the name of Van Camp ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. 'Wlio is he ? 

Mr. Reavis. He is a neighbor of mine. 

Mr. Arens. Is that George Van Camp ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. He testiiied yesterday. What has been his contact 
with you recently ? 

Mr. Reaves. Last week he called me and asked me if I could talk 
with him. 

Mr. Arens. That was last week ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir ; a week or two. I will say. It may have been 
2 weeks. I told him I couldn't. He said could I meet you out some 
place, and he said Leroy's Barbecue, and talk, and I said, "No, I can't 
see it." That is my jfirst time to turn my back on him. 

Mr. Arens. Let us proceed in the chronology of your activities 
in the Communist Party. When did you leave that Communist Party 
cell? 

Mr. Reavis. In 1952. 

Mr. Arens. "\^niere did you go ? 

Mr. Reavis. I went to Western Electric in 1951. I contacted the 
club over there sometime in 1951. I moved there in 1952. 

Mr. Arens. By there, do you mean Winston-Salem? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You moved from High Point over to Winston-Salem; 
is that correct ? 

Mr. REA^^:s. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. In Winston-Salem did you identify yourself with a 
Communist Party cell ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. Arens. How did you happen to do that? What were the 
mechanics for the process ? 

Mr. Reavis. For my own personal security, Junius Scales advised 
me not to contact anyone at Winston-Salem when I went to work at 
Western Electric. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat did he mean, for your own personal security ? 

Mr. Reaves. If I got identified as a Communist, I wouldn't get 
employment in Western Electric. 

Mr. Arens. Did Junius Scales have anything to do with your em- 
ployment, or the procurement of your employment in Western 
Electric? 

Mr. Reavis. Other than tell me that they were hiring and I should 
try to seek employment there. They were interested in getting party 
members located in Winston-Salem. It was becoming more union 
organized than High Point and other areas, and it was primarily 
Negro people with whom they were constantly trying to associate 
and ally themselves. 



3648 INVESTIGATION OF COIVOIUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Arens. Did Scales know that this Western Electric plant at 
Winston-Salem produces confidential material for the United States 
Government ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir ; he did. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat were the mechanics of your association with the 
Communist Party cell in Winston- Salem? Did Scales tell you to 
contact someone or did someone contact you ? 

Mr. Reavis. I was supposed to contact him. He had not been meet- 
ing with the club. He had disappeared for a year or so. I was 
supposed to contact him but Harvey Cox relayed his messages to 
me. I didn't get to see him. He told me that I would meet — I have 
forgotten exactly how I got acquainted with the club there — but I 
met with another club. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us, please, the name of each person in this Com- 
munist Party cell at Winston-Salem, who was known by you to be a 
member of the Communist conspiracy. Let us have his name and as 
much identification as you can give us. 

Mr. Reaves. Childs was in that. 

Mr. Arens. Childs was in that cell then ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. Gene Feldman was in it. 

Mr. Arens. Feldman has been identified; has he not? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. And he appeared as a witness? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You knew him as a comrade; is that correct? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. Arens. Did you report that fact to the FBI like Childs did ? 

Mr. REA^^:s. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Willis. Did you report Childs to the FBI ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Willis. And he reported you to the FBI ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Who was another person in that cell? The first man 
you named was Childs. Give us the name of another person known by 
you to be a comrade in the Winston-Salem cell. 

Mr. Reavis. I believe I named Gene Feldman. 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

Mr. Rea^tes. George Van Camp. 

Mr. Arens. Is he the man who contacted you a short time ago, after 
he learned he was to appear before this committee, and wanted to 
chat with you? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Arens, And you knew him as a comrade? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have another name ? 

Mr. Reavis. I think that is it. 

Mr. Arens. Did you Imow a man by the name of Warren Williams? 

Mr. Reavis. He contacted me in 1953 at George Van Camp's to sign 
me over in membership for 1 953. They sign up in October , November, 
or something. But I had not been meeting with them. I met with him 
in January, I guess. 

Mr. Arens, He was not in the cell when you were in it, but he subse- 
quently identified himself to you as a Communist; is that right? 
Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. I met him before at Durham. 



INVESTIGATION OF COJSESIUNIST ACTIVITIES 3649 

Mr. Arens. You mean as a comrade — as a Communist? 

Mr. Re^vvis. No, sir ; not as a Communist. I met him. I knew lie did 
party activity. 

Mr. Arens. You didn't know whether or not he was in the party 
grip ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Eeavis. That is true. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever learn that Warren Williams was a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Reaves. He signed me up for another year's membership in 
1953. 

Mr. Arens. Did you on the basis of your experience in the Commu- 
nist Party and your awareness of party techniques conclude in your 
own mind that Warren Williams was a comrade ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you now identify him as a person known by you to 
have been a comrade ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. I met him at Ross', in Durham, who was 
ousted from the university. He dichi't get his diploma. He finished 
law school at the University of North Carolina, and they could not 
give it to him because of this Communist Party affiliations. 

Mr. Arens. Have you the name of another person in the Winston- 
Salem cell. This is in 1952 ; is it not ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. All right, sir ; go ahead, please. 

Mr. REA\^s. Tliat is all. 

Mr. Arens. How about Jerry Pearson ? 

Mr. Reaves. He did contact work. I know once Junius Scales met 
with us and he brought them to the meeting place, but he did not meet 
with us. 

Mr. Arens. When did you disassociate yourself from the Commu- 
nist Party ? 

Mr. Reavis. I stopped meeting sometime in the latter part of 1952. 
I signed up again in 1953, and that was the last meeting I attende^d. 

Mr. Arens. Wlien in 1953 ? 

Mr. Rea^^s. January of 1953. I have been contacted by George 
Van Camp since then. I get a Christmas card from some of the 
comrades. 

Mr. Arens. They did not know until today, but what you might still 
be, at least ideologically, identified with them ; did they ? 

Mr. Reavis. No ; they didn't. 

Mr. Arens. Before we get to the point of your breaking from the 
Communist Party, tell us, did you ever attend the JeH'erson School of 
Social Science? 

Mr. Reaves. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. Arens. What is that school ? 

Mr. Reavis. It is a Communist school to recruit and educate leader- 
ship in the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. Where is it located ? 

Mr. Reavis. New York City. 

Mr. Arens. How did you happen to attend it ? 

Mr. Reavis. Junius Scales and Hank Farash came to my home and 
asked me if I would be interested in going to the school. 

Mr. Arens. When? 



3650 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Eeavis. I made a mistake there. I believe Friedland was still 
district organizer. Hanli Farasli relieved Bernard Friedland. I am 
not positive which one of the two came this time. One of them came 
with Junius Scales to get me to go to this school. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliat year was that, do you recall ? 

Mr. Eeavis. It was just before entering the furniture club, I think, 

in High Point. 

Mr. Arens. That would be in 1940, or thereabouts. 

Mr. Eeavis. It is some time in 1949, 1 think. 

Mr. Arens. Did the Communist Party pay your way to go to New 
York City? 

Mr. Eeavis. Yes, sir, they did. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you there? 

Mr. Eeavis. Three w^eeks. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat courses did they teach in the Jefferson School of 
Social Science? 

Mr. Eeavis. Marxism and Leninism. They schooled you on or- 
ganizing in your local groups and localities. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know Professor Boudin up there? 

Mr. Eeavis. No, sir, I didn't. 

Mr. Arens. Who were some of the instructors at the Jefferson 
School who tutored you ? 

Mr. Eeavis. Ply Gordon. It seems I met Elizabeth Gurley Flynn 
there. There was a Miller. This lady who was deported, Claudia 
Jones. That is all of the names I remember. I met 1 of the 10, 
Benjamin Davis. 

Mr. Arens. Who used to be on the city council in New York ? 

Mr. Eeavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Was he an instructor ? 

Mr. Eeavis. He was one of the Communists. I get Benjamin Davis 
and another one of the main 10 Communist leaders mixed up. I could 
be mistaken. There was one of the 10 on trial at Foley Square at 
the time w^ho was introduced to us. 

Mr. Arens. While the trial was in session ? 

Mr. Eeavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. He came around to the Jefferson School ? 

Mr. Eeavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat courses did they teach there besides Marxism 
and how to organize ? 

Mr. Eeavis. They don't stick to one subject. 

Mr. Arens. Was there any doubt in the minds of your instructors 
and the top leadership, but that as surely as the sun rises tomorrow, 
they will take over this Government by force and violence? 

Mr. Eeavis. They follow those lines, yes, sir. Their intentions are 
to have leadership, and through any way or means or anything possi- 
ble to them to overthrow or to infiltrate and take over the Government 
of all countries throughout the woi'ld. 

Mr. Kearney. In other words, it would let nothing stand in its way, 
is that right ? 

Mr. Eeavis. It is an international organization of the party. There 
are no bones about it being a foreign organization. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Eeavis, you have been in the Communist Party, 
vou have been an observer in the party. We know you are a good 
loyal American. Tell this committee and the people of this com- 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3651 

mimity whether or not in your judgment the Communist conspiracy 
today poses a serious threat to the internal security of this Nation. 

Mr. Reavis. Not only to this Nation, but I feel throughout the 
world. 

Mr. Arens. Is it, as I noticed in the paper here the other day, that 
some one said, just a political belief ? 

Mr. Reavis. They try to make it appear that, but it is not. 

Mr. Arens. That is what the dupes follow when they say it, is that 
correct ? Is it a matter of political belief that we are probing here ? 

Mr. Eeavis. That is the line they use when you first enter the party. 
That is your excuse. 

The Chairman. I want to amend that. Not only the dupes, but 
those who are serving the conspiracy attempt to create that impres- 
sion. 

Mr. Arens. Give us your appraisal now on the basis of your obser- 
vations as to how serious this situation is. Are we just down here on 
something that is witch hunting or is it really something serious, in 
your judgment? 

Mr. Reavis. It is serious. They strive to accomplish world power 
through any means. They would rather take it over like they did in 
the eastern democracies or in China. But in my mind they would 
not hesitate to use force. They would rather take it over politically 
and keep all the citizens of the Nation friendly toward them and use 
the ones that they can use. But if they can't be used, they would be 
disposed of. 

Mr. Arens. How dedicated are the comrades to the objective of the 
international Communist conspiracy? 

Mr. Reavis. They would rather take 5, 10, 20 years, it doesn't matter, 
to accomplish their goa.l rather than to fail in trying to take it in 1 
or 2 years. 

Mr. Arens. Is the individual Communist just a part-time man, or 
is he at heart dedicated to the conspiracy ? 

Mr. Reavis. He is dedicated. 

Mr. Arens. Is he dedicated heart and soul ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir, there is nothing else that stands in the way, 

Mr. Arens. Do you have any personal illustration with reference 
to yourself? JNIay I suggest when you decided to get married, did 
you have to discuss that with the comrades ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about that. 

Mr. Reavis. I hesitated to mention it to them, because tlicy think of 
anyone who doesn't believe in their way, if they can, as a higher 
class. My wife teaches school. They would rather comrades marry 
other comrades, or someone that they could possibly recruit or see a 
chance of recruiting. They didn't think that it was possible that I 
would be able to recruit my wife, I told them that I would not at- 
tempt to before we were married. They advised me that I should 
not get married. 

Mr. Arens. Have you finished your answer ? 

Mr. Reacts. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Was that part and parcel of the reason why you felt 
that you had done your stint for your Government and would like to 
be relieved of further obligations within the party operation ? 



3652 INVESTIGATION OF COMjVIUNIST ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Reavis. Meeting with them became unbearable after I got 
married. 

(Representative Willis left the hearing room.) 

Mr. Reavis. That seemed to be the main topic in om- club. I would 
not meet for a week or two and go back and it was the same topic. 
That and the fact that I worked at a place which was restricted. 
On one occasion I was carried to the comrade's home. I think he was 
trying to lead up to my work and everything, and I would not disclose 
any of my activities in the plant to him. 

Mr. Arens. Was he trying to get a little information out of you? 

Mr. Reavis. Felt me out, more or less. It was Karl Korstad of 
Winston-Salem. 

Mr. Arens. I didn't get that name. 

Mr. Reavis. Karl Korstad. 

Mr. Arens. K-o-r-s-t-a-d ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Karl? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. K-a-r-1 ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Was he a comrade ? 

Mr. Reavis. I didn't know him as such. I was not introduced to 
him as a comrade. Harvey Cox carried me to his home and told me 
I should meet him. That was about the time I was goin^ to work at 
Western Electric, and before I got assigned to a club m Winston- 
Salem. 

Mr. Arens. May I ask you now about some of the individuals who 
have been identified by Mr. Childs and others as members of other 
cells within the State to see if you are in a position to confinn and 
corroborate their testimony ? 

Did you know Ralph C. Clontz, Jr., as a comrade? 

Mr. Reavis. I know Clontz. I can't remember the relationship at 
this time. 

Mr. Arens. He has broken with the Communist Party. He has 
testified. He was never ideologically identified with the Commu- 
nist Party and was in it substantially the same as you and Childs. 

Mr. Reavis. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Joseph Franklin Blake, Jr. ? 

Mr. Reavis. No, I don't know him. 

Mr. Arens. Was he in some other cell ? 

Mr. Reavis. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Although you were in Communist Party at the same 
time he was, you had no means, manner or opportunitj'' to laiow his 
identity, is that correct? 

Mr. Reavis. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. You have told us about Nat Bond. Did you know Nat 
Bond as a Communist ? 

Mr. Reavis. I will say it this way. Mrs. Gladys Scales told me at 
one time in LYL work in North Carolina we were not accomplishing 
our goals. We were trying to get people interested in any idea we 
could go along with in the LYL. She said we only had a half dozen 
people in that organization who were not connected with the Commu- 
nist Party or were not party members. At a later date at another club, 
she said there was only one, and he was a Negro boy at Winston-Salem. 



ESrV'ESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3653 

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us in passing the techniques which are 
used by the Communists whereby just 2 or 3 Communists in a mass or- 
ganization of several thousand can control the policy of that organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Reavis. I didn't understand the question. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us the technique used by the Communists 
whereby a few Communists, 2 or 3, in an organization, can get to the 
nerve center of that organization and control its policy? Were you 
taught that technique in the Jefferson School ? 

Mr. Reaves. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What is the essence of that technique ? 

Mr. Rea\^s. They try to get into the leadership of an organization. 
They try to ally themselves with other organizations and people that 
will aid them in their work. 

Mr. Arens. Non-Communists, perliaps even anti-Communists? 

Mr. Reavis. Anything. Any weapon they can use to advance their 
means, that is their purpose. 

Mr. Arens. To what extent are the comrades adherents to the truth? 

Mr. Reavis. You always tell the truth to the Communist Party, but 
anyone else it is your own judgment. 

Mr. Arens. To what extent are the comrades adherents to morality ? 

Mr. Reavis. I will give you an example. In Detroit they asked, 
"Would you deny that you were a party member? Say you were 
asked by the FBI or an agent of the Government or a police officer 
or anybody?" 

Mr. Arens. How about a congressional committee ? 

Mr. Reavis. You would hide behind the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. We had a very good example yesterday of that 
when these lawyers were advising their clients, and didn't realize that 
what they wei'e saying was coming over the microphone. I heard 
this charming lady say something very uncomplimentary about me 
but she didn't realize it. Of course, it didn't disturb me. I am com- 
plimented by that sort of thing. 

Mr. Arens. Proceed, jMr. Reavis. 

Mr. Reavis. The example I started to give was what if one was 
asked the question, would we deny Communist Party membership. 
They said, would you deny your mother if she was in trouble? You 
would deny in the respect that you would not brag about it, but you 
would not deny if you were called upon to aid. 

The Chairman. Mr. Arens, I think this would be a good place to 
take a break. 

(Members present at the time of the recess were Representatives 
Walter, Willis, and Kearney.) 

(Short recess.) 

(Members present following the recess were Representatives Walter, 
Willis, and Kearney.) 

The Chairman. The committee will be in order. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Reavis, kindly tell us in your own words the cir- 
cumstances which occasioned your disassociation from the Communist 
Party. By disassociation, I mean from your active participation. 

Mr. Reavis. My name seemed to be the topic of this club that I 
was meeting with there at Winston-Salem each and every time we met. 
I would stay away a week or two and miss a meeting or so. I would 
go back and I was the topic hashed at the club again, and the fact 



3654 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 

that I got married and was not too active in their activities. They 
pretended to understand the fact that I wasn't too active because of my 
work. It just became unbearable to meet with them. I didn't feel 
that I was doing a good job in meeting with tliem because I was not 
getting any place. It was the same thing over and over. 

Mr. Arens. You had reported to the FBI all significant informa- 
tion to which vou had access, is that correct ? 

Mr. Keavis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I would respectfully suggest this would 
conclude the general staff interrogation of this witness. 

The Chairman. Mr. Willis, do you have any questions ? 

Mr. Willis. No, Mr. Chairman. I do wish to commend him for the 
work that he has done for our country. 

The Chairman. Mr. Kearney ? 

Mr. IvEARNEY. I have a few questions, Mr. Reavis. I am curious 
to know the reaction of your fellow employees when your name came 
out in the paper as a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Reavis. I walked in. I was nervous, because I knew that some 
of them had probably read the paper and my name was mentioned. 
One of the guys — I was sitting with two other guys and they were 
talking — and one guy said, "Didn't I see your name in the paper?" 
and I said, "I am not sure." He said, "Don't kid me. You are 
from High Point and you lived in Detroit." He says, "You are a 
Communist." One of them said, "They ought to shoot all the Com- 
munists." I said, "Yes, I agree with you." He said, "They ought to 
shoot you, too." So I thought I better find my boss man. 

Mr. Kearney. Before you came here this morning, were you some- 
what fearsome concerning your testimony ? 

Mr. Reavis. I was. I know that they do make slanderous remarks. 
They don't ever give up the idea of belittling you if you appear against 
them. Once you are in there, they consider you always a Communist, 
good or bad. If you are bad, you are supposed to be disposed of in 
their way of thinking. But a true Communist is a Communist from 
the time he joins until his death. 

Mr. Kearney. You were not fearful of physical harm ; were you ? 

Mr. Reavis. No, sir ; I don't think so. I don't think there is any- 
thing that will come of that. 

Mr. Kearney. I do not think you should be because you have cer- 
tainly rendered a wonderful service, not only to the people of North 
Carolina, but to our country at large, and it is refreshing to hear the 
testimony that you gave, and that of Mr. Childs a.nd Mr. Clontz, in 
rebuttal to what I call these fifth amendment Americans who have 
testified here. You deserve not only the thanks of this committee, but 
of our country at large. 

The Chairman. I would like to add to what General Kearney said 
with respect to your fear. I suppose that I am not revealing any 
confidence improperly when I say that the Federal Bureau of Investi- 
gation does not permit any person who has aided it in its work to 
protect this Government to be harmed. If any of these people who 
are in this Communist conspiracy should in any way attempt to inter- 
fere with you in your legitimate activities, I am sure that they will 
regret it. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 3655 

I would also like to thank the people of this community for the 
cooperation given our committee. I want to thank the marshal and 
the officials in charge of this building for their courteous treatment. 
I want to say that contrary to some of the articles I have read in the 
newspapers, I think these hearings have been a great success, because 
after all, while we have not forced anyone to tell what we hoped some 
of them would tell, nevertheless, charges that have been made have 
gone unanswered. The statements you have made, and those of 
the other two patriotic Americans who were in the service of this 
country, are charges of activities bordering on treason. Those 
charges were not answered. Wlien given the opportunity to answer 
those charges, these individuals saw fit to hide behind the very Con- 
stitution that they would destroy. 

I am not disturbed because the Communist Party saw fit to protect 
itself by sending someone here from outside of this community. That 
is a common occurrence. 

However, the thing that does disturb me is the inability of the 
Congress to adequately deal with situations of this sort. I know that 
there are lawyers who would like to be thrown out of hearings so that 
they can be martyrs and cliarge this committee with all sorts of 
un-American things. But we just do not fall for that. If only one 
thing of importance came from these hearings it seems to me that 
it is the testimony you gave showing that the Communist Party is 
not interested in numbers, but in leadership. I am sorry that Jackie 
Robinson's testimony could not have been given in the South instead 
of in Washington. I am sure that what he said before this com- 
mittee 4 or 5 years ago, if listened to by the colored people of the 
South, would act as a deterrent when these agents of the Soviet at- 
tempt to organize them and to spread the seeds of dissension. 

I do not know of anything more that I can say except this: The 
20,000 hard-core politicians in the Communist movement in the 
United States are well known. I am sure it came as a great shock 
during these hearings to the leaders of the Communist conspiracy — 
here for the purpose of deceiving the people — to find that their 
meetings were oeing attended by not only 1, 2, but by 3 employees of 
the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 

I thank you again, and the hearing is now adjourned. 

(Present at the time of adjournment were Representatives "Walter, 
Willis and Kearney.) 

(Thereupon at 12: 25 p. m., Wednesday, March 14, 1956, the hear- 
ings were adjourned subject to the call of the Chair.) 



i 



INDEX 



lNI)I\-IDUALS 

Page 

Alexander 3545 

Austin 3644 

Biukley, Eleanor (Mrs. William G. Binkley) 3519 

Binkley, William G 3517, 

3519, 3522, 3548, 3565, 3603-5614 (testimony) , 3627 

Blake, Dorothy (Mrs. Joseph Fi-anklin Blake, nee Strausberg) 3559,3560 

Blake, Joseph Franklin 3556-3563 (testimony), 3625, 3652 

Bond, Nathaniel 3519, 3532-3533 (testimony), 

3538-3551 (testimony ) , 3552, 3576, 3625, 3641, 3653 

Bouchard, Jule T 3586 

Brooks 3508 

Brown, Viola 3520, 3573-3577 (testimony), 3625, 3627, 3644, 3645 

Burke, Alice 3575 

Childs, Charles Benson 3506-3523 (testimony), 

3534, 3548-3549 (testimony), 3570, 3579, 3597, 3598, 3612, 3613, 

3623, 3643, 364(>, 3(i48, 3652. 

Clontz, Ralph C, Jr 3529-3530 (testimony), 3549-3556 (testimony), 3625 

Coburn, Charles 3639, 3641 

Cobiirn, Minion (Mrs. Charles Coburn) 36.39 

Coutlakis, Emanuel 3508, 3518, 3519. 3627 

Cox, Harvey 3640, 3641, 3043, 3644, 364s, :.652 

Cox, Mrs. Harvey 3641 

Danna, Clififord 3610 

Davis, Benjamin J., Jr 3650 

DeLacy, Hugh 3580 

Evans, William 3521, 3533-3537 (testimony), 3551, 3625, 3626 

Farash, Henry 3511, 3552, 3641, 3649, 3650 

Feldman, Eugene 3511, 3512, 3590-3603 (testimony), 3648 

Flynn, Elizabeth Gurley 3650 

Freistadt, Hans 3508, 3509 

Friedland, Bernard 3638, 3639, 3650 

Gilliland, James D 3523, 3532. 3533, 3556, .3565, 3506, 3573, 

3577, 3590, 3597, 3603, 3615, 3627, 3(>34 

Goff, Oliver Kenneth 3592 

Goforth, Clarence 3632 

Gordon, Hy .-^,650 

Haley, Dan 3540 

Handman, Bob 3520 

Helms, William (Willie) ,36.39-3641 

Hopkins, Velma 3575, 3644, 3645 

Hutchinson, Clara ,3632 

James, Shirley Temple 3544 

Jenkins, Richard , 3,508 

Johnson, George 3640, 3644 

Jones. Claudia 3630 

Korstad, Karl 3.5,52, 3652 

Laks, Rhoda 3532, 3533, 3547, ,3,5.56. 3565, ,3566. ,3,573, 

3577, 3,590, 3597, 3603, 3615, 3627, 3628, 3634 

Lewis, Robert Z 3616 

Long, Ralph Vernon 3,559, 3,560, 3632 

Marsh, Lee ,36,37, 3638 

Mathews, Anne Elizabeth 3,575, .3,576 

McGirt, William Archibald, Jr 3520. 3,551. ,3.5,52. 3,577-3.589 

(testimony), 3627, 3643, 3644 



ii INDEX 

Page 
Miller 3650 

Myers, John V 3523-3532 (testimony), 3603, 3625, 3626 

Osman, Arthur 3552 

Pearson, Jerry 3512, 3513, 3643, 3649 

Eeavis, Odis 3513, 3514, 3635-3655 (testimony) 

Robertson, Bill ^ 3506, 3507, 3519, 3544 

Robertson, Mary Major (Mrs. William Fred Robertson) 3627-3634 (testimony) 

Robertson, William Fred 3627, 3632 

Rosenberg, Ethel 3553 

Rosenberg, Julius 3553 

Ross, Mike 3506, 3649 

Russell, Maud 3509, 3510 

Scales, Gladys (Mrs. Junius Scales) 3551, 3642, 3643, 3652 

Scales, Junius 3513, 3517, 3518, 3520, 3551-35.55, 3.560, 

3585, 3638, 3639, 3643, 3644, 3647-3650 

Schneider, Aaron 3516, 35.36, 3553 

Sobell, Helen (Mrs. Morton Sobell) 3553 

Sobell, Morton 3516, 3553 

Tyree, Betty. ( See Van Camp, Betty Tyree. ) 

Van Camp, George David 3519, 3615-3627 (testimony), 3643, 3647-.3649 ' 

Van Camp, Betty Tyree (Mrs. George David Van Camp) 3.519 

Van Camp, Jerry 3519 

West, Don ,__ 3626 

White, Virginia 3511 

Williams, Albert Warren 3513, 3520, 3566-3572 (testimony), 

3615, 3648, 3649 
Organizations 

Agriculture and Technical College (Greensboro, N. C.) 3508,3509 

Bluefield State College (West Virginia) 3538, 3539, .3.541 

Camp Beacon 3632 

Campbell College (Buies Creek, N. C.) 3.i24 

Committee for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy 3509, 3510 

Communist Party, U. S. A. : 

Carolina District (North and South Carolina and Tennessee) 35.55, 

3575, 3580, 3638 

North Carolina 3505 

High Point Furniture Club 36.38-3640, .3645 

Winston-Salem 3643, 3647, 3648 

Virginia 3520 

Daily Worker (publication) 3511,3516 

Daniels Defense Committee 3507, 3519, 3.548-3551 

Distributive, Processing, and Office Workers of America, CIO 3552, 3645 

Food. Tobacco, Agricultural, and Allied Workers Union of America, 

CIO 3520, 3.552, 3584, 3645 

Freedom (publication) 3549 

Furniture Workers of America, United, CIO 3639, 3640 

Jefferson School of Social Science 35.54, 3649, 3650, 36.52, .3653 

Labor Youth League 3507-3509, 3511, 3641, 3643, 3644, .3652 

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 3."i42, 

3544, 3552, 3641 

North Carolina Conference of Youth Councils and College Chapters 3542, 

3544, 3546, 3547 
National Committee to Secure Justice for Morton Sobell in the Rosen- 
berg Case 3516, 3.536, 3-5.51, .3,5.53 

National Committee to Secure Justice in the Rosenberg Case 3516, 3517, 3536 

National Negro Labor Council 3576, 3577, 3644 

Tri-State Negro Labor Council 3576,3,577 

Progressive Party 3506, 3519, 3552, 3553 

Reynolds, R. J., Tobacco Co 3515 

Tri-State Negro Labor Council {See National Negro Labor Council.) 

University of North Carolina (Chapel Hill, N. C.) 3507,3510,3524,3525 

Western Electric plant (Winston-Salem, N. C.) ,3,51,5, ,3647, ,3648 

World Peace Appeal 3507, 3535, 3.553, ,3641 

Young Communist League 8642 

Young Progressives of America 3510 

o 



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